# Oxalic Acid Use



## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

I don't subscribe to ABJ. Any way to view those articles online yet?


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

A "problem" I found w/ the "copyrighted" recipes are the fact that OA is available in at least two forms, 71.4 and 99.? pure. The recipes DO NOT state which form of OA to use.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

<Murrell: Don't even think of trying dribbling without reading this one.<

I wonder? Half Europe has begun without reading that? What is so difficult anyway?

.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

>The recipes DO NOT state which form of OA to use.

I've contacted Randy Oliver and here's his reply:

I just registered for the Beesource forum, but have not yet been accepted. Could you please post this for me? All recipes in all the literature on OA are for the dihydrate, which is 71.4% pure. I will try to get a website up and running this week, so all can view the article.
Randy Oliver


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Finman,

>I wonder? Half Europe has begun without reading that? What is so difficult anyway...

There's lots of conflicting information coming out of Europe. The consensus says it's effective and safe when used properly. But the devil is in the details.

Randy has compiled the information. Adjusted the dosages for both winter and summer applications. Provides recipes sized for various needs. Included the web references and material sources. And added appropriate common sense safety advice.

It's a one stop shop for anyone wanting to try oxalic.

Regards
Dennis


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Basic information comes from European Union Varroa Group. Beekeepers twist adviced as they like. E:Union method is well tested and work fine.

You cannot use oxalic acid in summer it destoyes brood. I have collected recipes here.

http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136437131

http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1163318930

http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1145632073

http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136436349


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Coordination in Europe of research on integrated control of Varroa mites in honey bee colonies"

Proceedings from the Meeting 

November 13 and 14, 1999

http://www.entom.slu.se/res/bi/Proceedings.html

.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Finman,

Thanks for the additional references.

Best Regards
Dennis


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## Randy Oliver (Nov 27, 2006)

Hi Finman,
I just signed in to this chat group. I've read some of your posts, and will go back through the archives to see more. You're right, you Europeans will have little to learn from my article on OA--it was written for us backward Americans, who always have to reinvent the wheel.

I thought you might be able to help me. I'm writing my next article on monitoring mite levels and mite population dynamics.

My first question is from your statement that you get by with a once a year oxalic dribble--how many months are your bees rearing brood? Better yet, what date does the queen start laying, and what date does she stop?

Second question, which I'm having a very hard time finding the answer to, is a record of daily or weekly mite drops onto stickyboards for a colony that survives with a once-a-year oxalic treatment. I'm trying to plot the curves for recommended threshold levels, and have scoured the European and US literature. I'm especially curious about the peak mite drop. Does it occur for you about the first week of September (9th month), and if so, what do you consider to be an acceptable daily mite drop?

I'd be happy to email you my articles if you wish, they are in Microsoft Word format.

Yours,
Randy Oliver
California


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## tony350i (Jul 29, 2005)

Hello Randy,

I would be very interested in any articles you have on the OA dribbling, I am in the UK England and use national hives.

Is it possible to treat more than once a year with dribbling and what would you recommend the amount of grams of oxalic to 100grams of water and 100grams of sugar and the amount to dribble, i have 7 hives.

Regards Tony


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Welcome aboard Beesource Randy. Beesource ain't BEE-L







Pretty much everything gets discussed here, ocassionally even BEE-L. You'll find some of the same people here as there too as well as a number of extraordinary beekeepers that for one reason or another don't participate on BEE-L. Beesource is a good place to visit, the air isn't quite so rarified as on BEE-L. I look forward to your contributions.

Finman has always been a champion of the once-in-the-fall oxalic acid dribble treatment and has a wonderfully optimistic "varroa are not problem" attitude that I for one find refreshing. When respected and correctly managed, varroa shouldn't be a problem. I know several other local beekeepers, besides myself, that are trying the once-a-year approach. I have a number of hives that I started in spring of 2005 which only recieved 1 late fall treatement last year, and again this year. Time will tell if it is sufficient but so far it seems to be. Unfortunately, I don't have anything like regular mite drop counts on my hives.

There are 2 main camps of oxalic acid users here, the Dribblers and the Gassers and for the most part they peacefully coexist. Some, like myself, advocate both methods. You'll find a number of threads with in-depth discussion on oxalic acid use as well as other methods of varroa control, too many really to point you at any in particular. That said, here's one from about a year ago that raised a lot of questions and covered a lot of ground:

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000566;p=3#000062

Dave W is our premier mite-counter though I don't believe he has the type of data you're looking for. Seems to me I already sent you his numbers.

Anyways, again, welcome to Beesource!


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>You cannot use oxalic acid in summer it destoyes brood.

Finman, do you know this for a fact?

I've been corresponding with a beekeeper from Bavaria recently and they led me to believe that the only reason for a late-fall oxalic acid treatment is because treatments, any treatments for that matter, are more effective when the hives are broodless and the mites are phoretic.

Furthermore, the reason they cited for treating only once in the fall is because of the manner in which oxalic acid damages the bees. They said that the OA collects in the bee's spiracles and too much of it can kill them through a process of acidosis- acidifying their blood. A single treatment of oxalic acid laced syrup shortens the bees lifespan, but as long as the concentration of OA is within the proscribed limits, the shortening of the bees lifespan is not likely to result in the hive dying out during the winter but that multiple treatments in the fall and/or early winter could be detrimental to the hive's survival.

There is some evidence to suggest that hives that are treated in the fall with oxalic acid syrup may not build up as quickly in the spring as untreated hives without a little help, but they'll build up much faster than one that died over the winter from mite predation...

This person goes on to say that dribbling oxalic acid does no harm to brood, open or capped, and that dribbling multiple times during the season when the bees are brooding is not likely to cause any serious long term problems because the bees lifespans are already short and they're replenishing their population with new bees all the time. Of course, the efficacy of the treatment would suffer as with any treatment during periods where there is brood, but aside from that, the hive would not suffer any long term consequences. It's the long-lived over wintering bees that you don't want to treat more than once.

I believe that in the absence of solid research on the matter that a lot of assumptions are made surrounding the general statement that you should dribble oxalic acid "once and only once in the fall when hives are broodless". The broodless part is obvious, but the assumption, perhaps false, is that OA syrup kills brood. Can you or anyone else substantiate this rumor with evidence?

Again, I don't know what basis if any this beekeeper has for making these statements other than their own experience which amounts to a number of years of using oxalic acid for mite control, including the spring treatment of shook swarms and broodless nucs.

[ December 03, 2006, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]


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## Randy Oliver (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks, George!
There is European data demonstrating about a 15% colony strength reduction following winter OA dribble, but the colonies catch up with untreated colonies by the end of March.

The reason is anyone's guess right now. Medhat thinks that it affects the nurse bees' hypomandibular glands, but I haven't asked him yet for data--I will.

I'm very curious about trying other sticking agents rather than sugar. I've also experimented with neutralizing or inactivating OA with other chemicals, and am planning on some feeding trials to see if we can get around the problem.

I will have a website up in a few days, and will include all OA references.

I could use everyone's help on my current article--mite threshold levels, and sampling/monitoring methods. Specifically:
1. Mite threshold recommendations for your area.
2. Stickyboard mite drop records for an entire season for a mite resistant colony (I've gone over the data you sent me George, thanks!)
3. Data comparing various sampling methods, such as how an ether roll compares to stickboard count.
Please email me directly with data. I'm busy moving bees between states, and may not be able to keep current on posts. 
Thanks,
Randy Oliver
[email protected]


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Randy Oliver . . .

Welcome to BeeSource.

Please keep a watchful eye on George Fergusson, he is very easy to impress (Dave W is our premier mite-counter).









I have posted a 4-year record of sticky board counts for a hive that was NOT mite resistant.
If you need my help in locating, please, just ask.


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## kensfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

"I believe that in the absence of solid research on the matter that a lot of assumptions are made surrounding the general statement that you should dribble oxalic acid "once and only once in the fall when hives are broodless". The broodless part is obvious, but the assumption, perhaps false, is that OA syrup kills brood. Can you or anyone else substantiate this rumor with evidence?"

George.. I'd like to share part of an email I just received yesterday.. 

"You should avoid oxalic acid vaporization under any circumstance. It is extremely unhealthy for the applicator. In Germany oxalic acid used in the trickle method has been approved. However here in Germany you can purchase the crystals pre dissolved in water. In the United States you would have to mix your own. You should be sure to protect yourself with a mask, as the crystals can be very damaging to your kidneys if inhaled. Dr. Marion Ellis of the University of Nebraska has done a lot of testing with oxalic acid. Try to do a search for his information online.

We can talk more about this by phone. See if you can find a source for liquid formic acid, not the pads. It may also be known chemically as methanoic acid and used in the steel industry for cleaning. When we talk we can explain how it is used here. It kills varroa even those varroa in capped brood cells, which makes it an excellent treatment for use directly after the honey flow. Varroa can not become resistant to it and it does not effect your honey when used as they do here"

[ December 07, 2006, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: kensfarm ]


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Guys, I do not know what are you going to do. I have used 4 years oxalic acid trickling and I have not noticed any problems with that stuff. 
Oxalic acid is very well documented in Internet but I cannot understand why people trust more on people who has not yeat used the stuff.

I have not notidec any data about dyieng of bees. Of course a part dies on winter and ALL WINTERD BEES WILL BE DEAD BEFORE EARLY SUMMER.

I have controlled mites 20 years with chemicals and trickling is most effective and very easy to use.

Many in Finland too are afraid of oxalic acid and they manage well with thymol too.

Nothing is perfect in beekeeping.

I just try to tell facts. Here is so much nonsence online.

.


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## longarm (Apr 21, 2006)

Hello Randy,
I too am very interested in the recipe for a small number (5) of hives. Am not a subscriber to ABJ yet. Any chance of seeing this info online?
Thanks,
Dan


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

that world class mite counter dave w sezs:
I have posted a 4-year record of sticky board counts for a hive that was NOT mite resistant.
If you need my help in locating, please, just ask.

tecumseh sezs:
oh dave.... just show him the data.

then ask mr oliver:
as to number 2: how would you define or test a hive to determine it has mite resistance?

and as to number 1: area mite recommendations? seems fairly fuzzy also.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi Randy welcome to Beesource. I have enjoyed your articles and look forwards to more. I am a "gasser," started on the crack pipe and now use the Heysler evaporator once in the late fall.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>"You should avoid oxalic acid vaporization under any circumstance.

On the other side of the coin, some respected researchers are now recommending evaporation as a viable and economically effective method of treatment and I know of several commercial beekeepers that are vaporizing oxalic acid. Who are you going to believe? Clearly, there are a lot of differing opinions and not a lot of facts circulating about oxalic acid and how it should or should not be used.

In general, there is a lot more discussion about oxalic acid these days amongst bee researchers around the world and it appears as though the United States is finally beginning to apply it's giant brain to the problem. It's about time! We may even have an answer as to how oxalic acid kills mites. That would be nice.

>If you need my help in locating, please, just ask.

Dave, I already took the liberty some time ago of sending Randy the numbers you posted here on Beesource.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Welcome aboard Randy...... I look foward
to the arrival of the ABJ and reading your
article. Your efforts are appreciated.

I used to monitor the Bee-L line but have
stopped. Not a bad place, just doesn't 
meet my needs as much as this site does.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

"it appears as though the United States is finally beginning to apply it's giant brain to the problem."

I think you are right George. However my fear is that what we will see in the future is the marketing of an "Approved Product" in the U.S.-
"Oxalic Acid Plus" - "Vapor Guard" - "Mite Terminator" 
or something along those lines. A tested, approved, blend of Oxalic Acid and some other proven "ingredient" which will sell for $ 35.00/lb. (patented and registered, of course)


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I think you are right George. 

And I think YOU are right too Mike  

But a lot of good should come out of it too. Evaporators can vary widely in efficiency and safety- research into improved evaporator designs could be useful. Application methods could be studied and tested. Timing and application methods could use some study and experimentation. I foresee recommendations for safety precautions, reduced liabiity, etc.

I'll just be happy finding out once and for all what the mode of action is and whether we can expect to see resistance develop over time. Wouldn't surprise me.

Resourceful entrepreneurs will find a way to capitalize on the research, they always do, they already have, without the benefit of hard research- at least in this country. But the underlying, ongoing research, that will be a Good Thing(tm).


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

"But the underlying, ongoing research, that will be a Good Thing"

Amen!


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
Mike, you play just World Ends Apostol. Researches in Europe have settled alredy those questions and have got answers. If you are not satiefied them, you are just with your own believes.

Amen to be continued
.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<A tested, approved, blend of Oxalic Acid and some other proven "ingredient" which will sell for $ 35.00/lb. patented and registered, of course>

And any irresponsable beek that uses any other "unapproved" form will be crucified?!!!


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Finman,

I'm personally satisfied with the research thats been done in Europe and Canada... I use OA myself and it works fine. I hope to see more questions answered in the future though continued research.

My sarcastic remarks are directed towards the "American" way of blocking a simple, innexpensive, effective product and not allowing it on the market... but later approving some other form of it with a huge price tag. 

My father was in pharmaceutical sales and through his insight I have developed a dislike for the methods and "system" for approving new products. Not all, but many, are scamming the public through their marketing tactics, just to make a buck. My fear is that we will see the same frustrating scenerio with OA.


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## kensfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Hi George.. I think what he was meaning when he said.. "You should avoid oxalic acid vaporization under any circumstance".. was that he believed the risked to the beekeeper's health wasn't worth it.. if other methods of killing mites would be safer for the beekeeper.. and still be effective. 

For those who do vaporize.. what protective breathing gear do you wear? Eye protection? 

Does your breathing gear have the correct rating to protect you against acid vapour? 

How much exposure does it take damage your kidneys.. one time.. a dozen?


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
Mike 

My edugation is master in bilogical sciences and especially in plant physiology. It is near biochemistry. I have craduation in chemistry in Helsinki Unisversity too. I have worked 14 years in environmental protection of capital city of Helsinki. 

To be afariad what ever and boiling of minds around varroa have got tremendous dimensions compared to difficulty to keep mite in onder. 

I can see that people do not even read the receipts and researches which are offered under their nose. It is quite a work to find them from internet. English is your language and however you are not willing to read what others have done with issue. It is same with finnish beekeepers. It is so easy to make opinions without any knowledge. But read carefully what others have revieled, it is not worth of pain.

Adults read what support their opinions. 

Bees have more difficult issues that varroa. AFB is one but no one has that disease because officials come and burn your hives. So it is better to keep quiet. Nosema and chalk disease are bad. 

The worst enemy in beekeeping is positivism. To see much nectar flowers more than they are on fields is bad disease between ears. - if you want to earn with honey. The yield in one place may be 3-5 times more than in another. And it was you who selected pastures.


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## Randy Oliver (Nov 27, 2006)

Tecumseh--How does one define resistant bees? VSH by chewing behavior. But mainly, low mite levels in Sept when other colonies are spiking.

Finman--still waiting to hear about how long your broodrearing duration is. I'm hoping also to get to bees that can exist with only one OA dribble a year.

Randy Oliver


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

> Randy Finman--still waiting to hear about how long your broodrearing duration is >

Normally we have some brood in hives at the beginning of March when bees do clensing fligt. First of May brooding ordinary begins when willow start to bloom.

At the end of September brood have emerged. Winter feeding starts a couple of frames brooding in September.

Normally in Ochtober bees cannot fly outdoors.

I start protein feeding at the beginning of April and I warm hives with terrarium electrict heaters. 

My real brooding time is from April to September.

If mite load is too much it affects in August when wintering bees are raised. So mites have 4 months to propagate from level after trickling.

.


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## tony350i (Jul 29, 2005)

Hi,

I trickled for the fist time last Sunday and today I had a look and just finished a count on the dead mites on my trays,

I have 3 hives that are on 75 % 4.9mm comb in the brood nest with drops off 460 to 800 and 4 hive that have a smaller amounts off 4.9mm and drops over 1400.

I think trickling is a very good way to get mite number down with out the risk of having residue in the wax, I have worked hard this year to rid any residue that might have been in the brood frames, 2007 I hope to have 4.9mm and natural cell in all my hives.

I have had some good advise from Finman and others on trickling 

Thanks

Tony


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>For those who do vaporize.. what protective breathing gear do you wear?

I just stood up wind.

> Eye protection?

I just stood up wind.

>How much exposure does it take damage your kidneys.. one time.. a dozen?

You eat oxalic acid all the time. It's not so much the total amount as too much at one time that's a problem.


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## kensfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Hi Michael.. I just want to make sure that those that are using OA know the risks involved.

Gangrene has occurred in the hands of people working with oxalic acid solutions without rubber gloves. The skin lesions are characterized by cracking of the skin and the development of slow-healing ulcers. The skin may be bluish in color, and the nails brittle and yellow. 

Inhalation of oxalic acid produces irritation of the respiratory tract, ulceration of the mucous membranes, headaches, nervousness, cough, vomiting, emaciation, back pain (due to kidney injury), and weakness. 

A study of railroad car cleaners in Norway who were heavily exposed to oxalic acid solutions and vapors revealed a 53% prevalence of urolithiasis (the formation of urinary stones), compared to a rate of 12% among unexposed workers from the same company. 

Calcium dietary supplement

The reason that this type of dietary modification reduced the chance of kidney stones was relatively simple. A high percentage of kidney stones are comprised of calcium and oxalic acid which form calcium oxalate inside the kidneys. Oxalic acid is able to pass through the intestinal wall into the blood and enter the kidneys where it has a chance to combine with calcium. Calcium oxalate, when normally combined inside the digestive tract, does not pass through the intestinal wall and into the blood, but is eliminated with other waste products. Therefore, when oxalic acid combines with dietary calcium or supplemental calcium inside the intestinal tract, oxalic acid will never reach the kidneys and therefore calcium oxalate kidney stones cannot be formed.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would guess a commercial beekeeper treating thousands of hives would need to be extra careful, but I don't see how a hobbiest is going to get exposed to very much oxalic unless they are really careless. If you breath ANY of the fumes your body will tell you that was a REALLY bad idea. I've seen no long term issues, but you will have an immediate coughing fit. It would be very foolish to make that mistake twice.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I've had a whiff of it and it will definitely be my last  

Dave


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Heheheh... one time for me too Dave. I watch the smoker very closely now.


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## longarm (Apr 21, 2006)

I treated my hives as per Randy Oliver's directions (Thanks again Randy). All the bees in each hive were clustered in only one deep each.. so I only dripped the 5mls per space as was appropriate for the number of occupied spaces. Some hives only received 25mls total, others 40mls total. I have seen a low mite drop after the treatment. 
1) Was this enough OA sol'n to have the desired effect on the mites?
2) How effectively is the sol'n dispursed amonst the bees when they are in cluster?


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Hi Randy. Sorry I did not noticed your post up there. 

I am not specialist in varroa studies but our expert, professional bee rearcher is. He is Seppo Korpela who has studied beekeeping in California University . He has contacts into European Group.

Adress:

[email protected] 

.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
Adresses of whole "Coordination in Europe of research on integrated control of varroa mites in honey bee colonies"

http://ec.europa.eu/research/agro/fair/en/se3686.html
.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Like MB, I just make very sure I'm upwind and use rubber gloves. I now have a 3M respirator mask that I'll use next year

Oxalic acid is present in plain old apples that we eat. Excess apple consumption ( an apple a day) has been linked to kidney stone formation.

Randy:
An amature record of mite drops was done by me this fall.

You can get the full Excell spread sheet at 
www.hhrobertsmachinery.com/private/mites.xls

The whole sorry tale is covered under the FGMO section in my post FGMO and Thymol vs Oxalic Acid.
But in short the OA vapour knocked down over 40,000 mites in 9 hives in a few weeks. I'm very happy so far. We'll see what the spring brings.

I have not counted for the last few days because the weather got cold and the drop rates fell to near zero. I need to count again because the last few days have been like spring.

[ December 13, 2006, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Brent. It is fine data, how oxalic affect.

There are srange variation between days. 

Have you noticed how much bees carry in their jaws mites outside. On sunny days mites are few and on rainy and cloudy days they are 5 fold.

But very interesting. 

.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
Brent, I looked your data per week, how much mites dropped per week

week 1...	4267...	10 %
week 2...	6393...	14 %
week 3...	20659...46 %
week 4...	6646...	15 %
week 5...	3855...	9 %
week 6...	1476...	3 %
week 7...	1331...	3 %


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

how many treatments are you fellows applying to your hives in season?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

3 Vapor treatmets, one week apart in the Fall.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Three treatments seems to be alot. Our guys here are telling us that this is a one time treatment, being once in fall and once in spring during the smallest brooding possibly to treat effectively.
Especially when talking about drizzleing this stuff. Real hard on the brood.
Do you notice any setback due to three treatments?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Ian,

I think the trick is whether you get a real "broodless" period where you live
I would think you do and only need one treatment
where I live we don't, and need multiple treatments to get em as the brood emerges
just my 2 cents worth

Dave


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

"Oxalic acid is present in plain old apples that we eat. Excess apple consumption ( an apple a day) has been linked to kidney stone formation."

Brent...... Are you sure about that?? I've
often heard of apple juice, and apple cider
vinegar for treatments, never causation.

Just googled.....

"Kidney Stones treatment using Apple
Apples are useful in kidney stones. In countries where the natural unsweetened cider is a common beverage, cases of stones or calculus are practically absent. The ripe fresh fruit is, however, more valuable."

http://www.home-remedies-for-you.com/remedy/Kidney-Stones.html

Does it show that I have an apple orchard??


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I had been considering using OA vapor but
the more I read about trickling the more
I like it. It is certainly much easier and
faster if you have lots of colonies to treat
I would think.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Excess apple consumption ( an apple a day) has been linked to kidney stone formation

Nobody knows why some people are suceptable to forming kidney stones and others aren't, but for those that are it is suggested that they avoid foods high in oxalate, which includes most foods that are typically considered "good" for you, including apples. Suggesting that an apple a day can cause kidney stones to develop is just wrong.

>I had been considering using OA vapor but
the more I read about trickling the more
I like it.

It was simply a question of practicality for me this year. I haven't given up on vaporizing, but with what was going on in my life this fall I didn't have the time or wherewithal to do anything BUT trickle my hives.

What I have given up on is any kind of treatment when the hives are broodright. This 3-treatments a week apart nonsense is for the birds. It's a waste of time, money, and chemicals not to mention that it is ineffective and needlessly annoys the bees. So I'll either wait for them to stop rearing brood on their own, or create or take advantage of a natural mid-season break in brood rearing.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> 3-treatments a week apart.....is ineffective <

Really ????


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Perhaps while brood is present. During time when the hive is brooding, as I understand it, the mite spends most of its life within the cells of the brood, transfering on the bees. Unless your treatment during a brooding cycle is continous to get all the mites as they leave the cell, week interval treatments arent going to get the most of them. Perhaps adversly effecting the bees more than your getting benifet from.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't get it. If I wait until the middle of winter to vaporize a broodless hive, the bees being treated have probably already been severely damaged by the mites. 

Why not treat 3 times in the fall and have a high percentage of winter bees in the hive that have not been impacted by Varroa? It might not get all of the mites but there should be a much higher number of healthier bees living a longer life over winter.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Mike

here's the argument

http://bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm

it would help a LOT if you did something in late summer to make them broodless, then treat
(maybe cage the queen)

Dave


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Thank you Dave. MB's chart puts it into perspective.
Waiting until mid-winter still does not look like the best timing though. I like the late summer idea.

Would it make sense to time the late summer treatment with queen replacement? 
Cage the old queen for 3 weeks, treat, then introduce the new queen?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I agree that treating in late summer so they can raise another round of healthy bees before winter sounds like the optimum solution
it's just more trouble
if you can work it into re-queening go for it
(I say that having never done it myself)

Dave


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Thanks Ian, Dave, for "backing me up" whilst I was off shopping









>Waiting until mid-winter still does not look like the best timing though. I like the late summer idea.

I don't advocate mid-winter treatments, I advocate treatments when a hive is broodless, or nearly so. On the bees regular schedule, that works out to sometime in November. In mid-winter, the bees are tightly clustered and treatments are less effective whether you dribble or vaporize. OA is a contact acaricide as are most chemicals.

Late summer is when you want your hives broodright, collecting pollen and raising healthy winter bees. You want your mite populations to be under control come late summer. It's not when you want to be making your hive broodless, at least not in northern areas of the country. Maybe down south perhaps where you've still got a few months of season left ahead of you. Here in Maine we've only got 180 days of real brood rearing season to play with. How many brood cycles do I want to give up in a season? Well, none of them if I can help it









Requeening and splitting is a good opportunity to make your hives broodless and here in Maine, mid-summer seems to be the appropriate time for this activity. You can raise queens then, make up nucs, etc. Down south, early spring splits work where they can raise queens in March and April. Where I live, the snow isn't even melted yet.

All beekeeping is local.

To effectively use oxalic acid to control mites, your hives really should be broodless, but it doesn't have to be cold outside


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

you make a good point George
the optimum schedule in NC is not the same as in Maine

Dave

ps: Shopping? Now??
it's way to early


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>the optimum schedule in NC is not the same as in Maine

30 miles towards the coast from where I live makes a big difference in what you should do and when









>ps: Shopping? Now??
it's way to early 

Grocery shopping my man, grocery shopping. Turns out I love it







Whassup with that? Christmas shopping I absolutely detest. I don't go Christmas shopping, I just give away honey if I got it, or candles that I've made, or squash from the garden, or home grown garlic...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>the bees being treated have probably already been severely damaged by the mites. 


This is exactly the reason organic acid treatments as sutch work much more effectively when the mite levels are managable. Organic treatments are to be looked as a long term mite management plan, perhaps requireing a chemical treatment within the midst every three or four years. It is usually why many beekeepers have dead hives in the spring after switching to organic acids while noticing a mite load problem in the fall.
It would be wise to "clean up" your mite problem with chemical treatments before entering into an intergrated pest management program.
I would really suggest you contact your head bee guys and talk to them about weekly Oxalic treatments. I know your bees will be suffering from it. Though, vapourizing much less than drizzling. More than one late fall drizzle on a hive has been documented as being detremental to the hives wintering success.
Much less of control when treating during a brood cycle, period.

[ December 16, 2006, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

This is my second year of using OA Vapor in the fall/winter on a three week schedule. Maybe I've just been fortunate, but it seems to knock the heck out of the mites and the drops didn't begin to climb again until about September of the following year, as expected. 

Last summer I did a few powdered sugar dustings and a some drone comb manipulation and that seemed to help them out through the summer. I treated the 1st three weeks of this past October and brood continued into November, in fact there was still small patches of brood just a couple of weeks ago when I took a quick peek on a warm day.

Ian, I'm afraid that there are no "head bee guys" here to confer with. Everyone here uses Chemicals to treat for mites... I appear to be the lone maverick trying to go the more natural route. The best advice I get is from right here on this forum, which I appreciate very much. I am going to do my best to stay away from chemicals if at all possible.

George, my winter broodless period seems to run from about right now into January. I feel that is too late to wait for treatment. Mites seem to really spike here in September during the fall flow so it would be ideal to knock them down right before the flow. I'll have to give some more thought to the "breaking of the brood cycle" in late summer so a single treatment can be used before the flow. The timing will be critical. If its too early the colonies could become reinfested. Too late, and we'll miss the fall flow with worker depleted colonies.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

It's all about timing Mike, and you have to find what works for you. What works for me may not be the best solution for your bees in your locale. The basic principles hehind effective treatments however are the same for everyone.

Last year I managed to get my new colonies through the season with a single late fall OA dribble treatment. This year I was able to hold off treating those same colonies again until late fall. I'd like to think I can keep this up for the forseeable future but I suspect the mites will catch up with me eventually. Maybe not. Time will tell.

Just remember that one OA treatment, vapor or drip, when your bees are broodless, whatever time of year that may be, trumps 3 weekly treatments every time.

George-


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Mike,
I'm with you. I drizzle (actually spray)my hives 3 times a week apart the last three weeks of August. This year was the third year I've done this. There hasn't been any brood damage that was noticable. Treating at the end of August gives me 3 months of brood time to raise winter bees. My hives are just now starting to become broodless and probably will never be completely broodless. Next week around the 21st of Dec. I will put on another round of pollen patties, start feeding and check for mites. If I find any, they will get another shot of OA. Since I've started doing my treatments this way, I find very few mites. It takes me about 1/2 day to do 50 hives. That's usually two locations. I could probably do 100 in a day but in August I try to have my days work done around noon. It gets real hot here. 

Jim

[ December 17, 2006, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Flyer Jim ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>(actually spray)

Could you elaborate on this process?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>How much exposure does it take damage your kidneys.. one time.. a dozen?

>You eat oxalic acid all the time. It's not so much the total amount as too much at one time that's a problem.

>A high percentage of kidney stones are comprised of calcium and oxalic acid which form calcium oxalate inside the kidneys.

>Oxalic acid is present in plain old apples that we eat. Excess apple consumption ( an apple a day) has been linked to kidney stone formation.

Back in the mid 1950's my dad in his early 30's developed kidney stones. In those days you went under the knife to have them removed, which, of course, he did. Two or three years later, kidney stones reappeared in the same kidney. Doctors back then relying on the latest medical science determined my dad had a defective kidney. So, they removed the whole thing. He lived with one kidney until he was 2 weeks shy of his 91st birthday.

We did not have bees back then, and if we did there would certainly have been no reason to treat them with oxalic acid. We did have a few old apple trees on the farm, but my father ate no more apples than the rest of us. We lived on a small dairy farm. Milk is a good source of calcium, but my father never actually drank a huge amount of milk. 

One thing I enjoy about internet beekeeping is all the speculation and opinion that gets presented as a universally proven truth.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

George,
Just like Randy Oliver stated in his article in ABJ, I say spray because I use a garden sprayer but it actually comes out in a weak stream. 

This was not my original idea, I borrowed it from other beekeepers. Its been around awhile, how long I don't know. The first year I tested this on 20 hives, it seemed to work pretty good so now all of them get the same treatment. 
Jim


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## whitebark (Jul 14, 2004)

I'm at a bit of a loss. I waited until my bees were broodless to treat, but during this period we've had storm after storm and I have not been able to treat them. It is a few degrees below freezing at the moment and bees are tightly clustered. Should I treat now, or wait until a warmer day when the cluster relaxes and the dribble will be more effective? I kind of figure treating the tight cluster is better than nothing, but we are going through a cold spell at the moment and the weather should warm in a week or so letting the cluster relax a little. Hopefully the mite losses will be minimal between now and when the weather warms a bit.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.

It is purpose to give trickling when bees are in the cluster. It is normal condition. And still if you have 2-box hive and the cluster is in lower, trickling works fine when you do not take apart deeps. Mostly it is impossible to lift upper deep from lower because there are burr between deeps.

Be brave, it is not so difficult as in the text.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I saw that in Randy's article as well Jim.
I am going to try it as well. My only ? is
how long do the internal works last in a
sprayer when used with OA. I think they 
used to have metal in them, but perhaps
they are all plastic now???


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Bruce,
I use a cheap one gallon sprayer from WalMart. They're all plastic inside. The only time I have trouble with them is if I don't rinse it out for a couple days. The sugar water will get everything sticky. The plain old water will rinse it out and its good. The sprayer is just a dispensing tool. I tried a syringe carrying a bucket of OA mixture, but the syringe got sticky and seemed to be too much of a pain. If you want really accurate measurements, you can shoot the OA from the sprayer into a graduated measuring cup and then dibble the syrup between the frames. The sprayer has a strap on it so you can use both hands to pop the lid off of the hive and grab the wand, apply the OA, let go of the wand and put the lid back on. I think alot of this has to do with your local conditions, temperature and time of year. Try it on a few hives and see what you think. That's what I did.

I may have mites in some of my hives now, another beekeeper moved about 100 hives 1/2 mile away from mine about a month ago. They must have been weak because I think my bees were robbing his out and after 3 or 4 weeks he moved his out. So now I get to check for mites again.
Jim


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>think my bees were robbing his out and after 3 or 4 weeks he moved his out

Better treat for AFB if you fear that was the case,

>>I appear to be the lone maverick trying to go the more natural route

There is nothing natural about Oxalic acid treatments. A 2-4% dose of Oxalic acid is really un-natural to the bees. Perhaps you would agree, an alternative route,.?

>>there are no "head bee guys" here to confer wi

Well make this advice straight from my head bee guys to you , through me. This is straight up, up and down advice given to me from guys actually studding the stuff on test hives. Started studding the treatments for a year or two now, and has been actively testing other acid treatments for many many years. 
But granted, as you have suggested earlier, everything is regional, my conditions much different than yours. So take it with what it is worth,..

Something that I think you might find interesting is their studdy of Oxalic acid vapour on package bees comming in from shippment. They are treating them with regular OA treatment, in their packages, and getting a significant mite treatment. They are suggesting perhaps nearly 95-99%mite control, and very little bee damage.
Their test involved introducing mites into packages and testing their mite loads after treatment, and then as produceing hives vs control hives.
This studdy is where they accedentally noticed the corrilation with mite intoduction and increase in cluster temps. Seems only with high grooming behaviour type bees, when there is mites introduced, their cluster temps rise as they groom off the mites. Comes in handy with a infa-red camera, using increased cluster temps as a marker for grooming behaviour when making breeding selections for their area select stock, 
Something to think about,

[ December 18, 2006, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
One of our professional beekeepers has measured cluster tempretures after oxalic trickling. The average temperature was near normal 23C.(73F)

When I changed the inner cover to hive and measured the temp rise, it was 42,8C. (109F)
.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Finman,

I don't understand
what did you "change" about the inner cover?
109F is REALLY hot, what caused this?
perhaps we could heat our homes with bee's









Dave


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
I replaced styrofoam inner cover with new wooden cover. 

Last autumn I disturbed a hive and it begin to fry during frost. I measured the temperature and it was same 108F. I think that bees generate "ready to fight" temperature when disturbed. It is almost same as "fast flight temperature" in queen's thorax.
.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>it was 42,8C

I dont understand what your saying. Could you elaberate. Bees might be able to tolerate that heat during flight, but I cant see how they tolerate that temp in cluster,?


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
You may measure your self the temp. Put digital thermometer sensor inside the cluster and kick to the side of hive and wait a couple of minutes.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Perhaps you meant 32.8 degrees up form 23 degrees.? 
From what I understand, the cluster maintains its temp in the low 30's during brood rearing activity, lower when no brood is present.
Bees dont tolerate temps over 35 degrees well,


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

I really meant 42,8C . 

Last autumn I measured the hive when I disturbed it. I just walked around hives and covered them against snow and wind.

Disturbed 14:00 temperature was 42C
In evening 20:00 it was 32 C I thought that it has brood.
Next morning 23 C = normal winter cluster.

Out temperature was -8C.

If winter cluster is 32C, it has brood. In late winter it is normal.


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