# Wax moth Feces



## edugan (Mar 15, 2016)

I just finished my last of three oxolic treatments. My IPM board had what looked like black seeds on the right side of it about 2 to three frames wide. I saw he same thing 7 days prior after my second oxolic tx. Upon further investigation and the wonderful internet, I discovered it is wax moth feces I am seeing. I have three mediums and the top two are filed with capped honey. I have not gone down to the bottom for about one month. I am pretty sure thats where the damage is being done. I want to replace the entire bottom box with a new box and include the frames not infested however do I fill the remainder of the box with undrawn frames? Leave the space open?? I am hoping to have 5-6 frames not infested but wont know for sure until I get into the hive. I have foundationless frames and plastic foundation frames. 

I started the colony in June and used all new equipment other than the drawn frames from the nuc I purchased.

In Southwestern Pennsylvania and nights are geting into the 40's

Would definately appreciate any thoughts!


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

edugan said:


> Would definately appreciate any thoughts!


Freeze the affected frames and hive body for a couple of days and put them back. But where I am, moths are not a threat to a healthy hive, and seeing an infestation would be a bad sign of other problems.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Which box are the bees in? How strong is your hive? How much wax moth feces are we talking about?

As River said "infestation would be a bad sign of other problems."

A strong hive will take care of moths. If it's a few sprinkles here and there I would not worry about it. New foundation will be worthless to the hive right now, but if you have to, add them to the outside frames. 

I would post pictures for a second opinion before dismantling your hive. It could be something else. Lots of critters live in a hive.


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## edugan (Mar 15, 2016)

I do know about freezing but just wanted to know if I could just clean up and replace since I have the equipment to do so, not sure if I should replace infested frames or leave the space open. Would the open space attract more wax moth? I feel the infestaion is in the bottom box. The bees are in all three boxes. Pretty full, thats why I have a fourth medium on. I probably have less than 1/8 tsp of feces. The hive is 2016 nuc that I purchased in June. Buckfast bees with Purdue Leg Chewing Queen 

Just want to go into the hive with a plan. New beekeper, second attempt maintaining a hive. I do not have the technology for photographs to post.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

edugan said:


> I do know about freezing but just wanted to know if I could just clean up and replace since I have the equipment to do so, not sure if I should replace infested frames or leave the space open.


Do not leave open space in the hive. If you have empty drawn comb to replace it with, then replace it. Otherwise, freeze it and put it back in the hive. The bees will fix it when they can.


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## edugan (Mar 15, 2016)

Thank you everyone! I checked all three medium boxes and 24 frames. no sign of wax moth. There were six odd holes on a few brood frames that something other than a bee had made. Maybe wax moth larve and when hatched the bees took care of the problem! Second winter and always learning!


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

or...maybe they burrowed into the wood hive body to hatch out, that's what they do best.


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## edugan (Mar 15, 2016)

Thank you, I saw no signs of that either during my inspection. My hives are western red cedar so I am hoping the cedar helps a bit with some control. Don't want to take my hive apart again as the nights are in the 40's. I do plan on checking the IPM board weekly to stay on top of mites so I would notice the feces....I hope!!


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## edugan (Mar 15, 2016)

Still seeing wax moth feces on bottom board, this week actually saw a wax moth crawling aroung being attacked by the bees. Also found two mites on the bottom board but the bees are pulling out larve, possibly drone larve?? About 20 laying out in front of the hive. I have a purdue leg chewing queen....could this be some type of hygenic bahavior?? Really need to invest in a phone that takes pics to post.


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## sandmtn (Jul 7, 2016)

edugan, I have been dealing with the same issue. I also just got my nuc in June and have all new equipment except for the nuc frames. My bees have been dealing with mites too and so that probably is why the moths were able to get in.

Anyway about the same time you did, I also started seeing WM feces in just one area. I've pulled the frames in that area twice now and looked all through the hive body trying to find the moths and larvae without success. 

In my case I believe there is only one frame infected. No outward signs on it but could be underneath what can be seen. Bees are pulling bee larvae from the frame also like I think you are saying yours may be doing.

I think Riverderwent had the right advice for us -


> Freeze the affected frames and hive body for a couple of days and put them back.


For me, this will mean sacrificing the brood in that frame but may be the key to ridding the hive of the WMs. I plan to pull and freeze the suspect frame, insert an undrawn frame in it's place and then after a couple of days will put the infected frame back in as Riverderwent advised. I don't believe the hive body is infected.

Are you getting warm enough daytime temps to open up? Maybe someone more experienced could chime in about this but I'm guessing you could push the other frames together to get the empties on the outside to help with night time low temps.


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## edugan (Mar 15, 2016)

Thanks sandmtn. I agree with Riverderwent also and should have heeded DavidZ's suggestion of the wax moths in the wood. They are somewhere because the droppings have increased. I am freezing 8 drawn out frames today just to make sure I don't reinfest. Have the temp in the freezer at 0 degrees f. Supposed to rain tomorrow so plan on starting the replacement process with the bottom box thursday. I also have a new hive body to replace current box with. I will also freeze the infested hive body. I am currently one brood and 2 supers.

Temps supposed to be in the 50's and sunshine, not perfect but neither is replacing a colony!!

Please sandmtn post updates on your situation!!


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## sandmtn (Jul 7, 2016)

Hey edugan, Glad to hear you were able to get in there and get those frames out. I also went in today and pulled out 2 frames and put them in the freezer. And will put them back in the hive Thursday. Was very challenging to get the bees off of them!

I just kept reading everything I could find last night and managed to find some guidance including photos for identifying early stage WM infestation. At the following link: https://beeinformed.org/2013/04/23/bald-brood/

I didn't know what to look for before and that is why I missed the (very subtle) signs. I had been seeing uncapped brood but thought it was due to Varroa. Today I saw a little bit of these signs (described in article) on the 2nd frame that I hadn't originally thought was involved. And there was much less capped brood in this frame than I saw on the clear one next to it. I will photograph the frames when they come out of the freezer and will post the photos.

Good luck and let us know what you see when you pull your frames out to thaw.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Is there other way to get the moth out?

The days are not supportive to open and inspect hives.
Most of my top deeps are full and bottom deeps have 1.5-2 frames with no drawn comb (so no space to fill-up).

I had to dispose the last batch of 2:1 syrup, since they didn't pick it up at all.

I am a little confused: it looks hives are doing well and strong, but on the other hand they can't get rid of the moth natural way.

I approximately know the location of the moth, but not sure if it's in top or bottom deep.


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## sandmtn (Jul 7, 2016)

Artur_M, I understand that you can open up briefly and would be able to pull the infected frames out if you have temps in the mid to high 50's - please research that to confirm. Our warmest temps occur at around 2pm so that's what I shoot for. 

I also thought the WMs might be in the top box frames (which are new honey-filled combs) and so inspected them. Later I read that the WMs will first go for brood comb or at least dark comb that has had brood in it since they feed on the contaminants (so to speak) in the wax rather than the wax itself. So I am ruling those out - that is unless I find droppings there while the lower ones are out. Is the comb in the top deep over the area you're finding WM droppings light or dark-colored?

Maybe someone who understands this situation more than I do can advise as to how to fill in the space for the couple of days the infected frames are in the freezer. I'm guessing you could do it with honey-filled frames from top deep if you don't feel good about leaving so much space in the brood box? I put in undrawn foundation frames but we have warmer night time temps than you do.

My colony looks to be strong and doing well also. But they have been dealing with Varroa mites and associated viruses that I failed to treat for until it almost too late. I have Italians and apparently are more likely to let pests get a foothold. Ok and probably another factor for me is that this area was inundated with wax moths after a neighbor's colony died out and was unable to clean it up until it was completely infested. 

Hope you find out what allowed this to happen in the first place. Good luck!


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Thanks for the reply!

Last time I checked, I had a very little brood in the bottom deep in the middle. I don't remember being anything bad back then. 
The days were cooler back then, and I thought the queens shut-down production for the year.

the bottom deep picture is the following: when I bought the nucs 5 frames each, the seller put them on the side of the hive (which I thought is a mistake, but he convinced me that is ok), then I find that the bees are working slowly picking up on the "new" frames, so I moved nuc's 5 frames to the middle moving the 2 far once to the other side to have the 5+1 between 2 and 2 on each side almost untouched (I thought this would be good strategy to let them expand both ways), and the bees worked on the 2 sides one a little. Somehow, the bees worked better in the top deep making 8/10 frames full (with syrup help) and 1+1 sides are partially comb drawn and filed.
I thought they have a space to work and fill-up, so I put the 3rd batch of syrup, but they didn't pick it up, or picked up a little, so I had to dispose the syrup.

Thats a preview 

Now what's going on.
I noticed the WM's feces about a month ago, when I was checking to see if the bees empty the syrup. As a new beekeeper, I didn't know what do I see. About 2-3 days ago, again, inspecting a sticky bottom board, I saw the same feces.

The location of feces on the board is close to back-left corner.
Questions:
1. I understand that freezing is the best option of getting rid of WM, but is it the only option? Can I remove the frames, brush them up and put back?
2. If I remove the frames, I have spare frames with plastic foundation with wax coating but no comb - can I replace them with those?
3. The bees are working well during a day cleaning up the hive and kicking some drones out - If I remove the robbing screens, will it help them to get rid of the WM?

Does someone know what is the life cycle of the WM?

I know SHB larvae goes into the ground to hatch, that's why I keep the ground treated with "Diatomaceous Earth", which I heard is good and natural killer of "ground life".

Will be happy to hear any suggestions.


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## edugan (Mar 15, 2016)

Update on my wax moth. Once again I tore my hive apart looking for the wax moth. This time I had 8 frames of uninfested frames ready to replace (I froze 8 frames of honey from a hive that did not make it last spring) Nothing once again! Hive looks strong. There were drone cells in all three boxes with maybe 20 o 30 in the middle box. The bees are continuing to drag out the larve of the drones. I feel my hive was not devistated by mites bcause I have kept up with treatments, doing sugar shakes and checking IPM board alternating weeks. My drop count has never been above 60 after the third OAV treatment. One of the members of my bee club who has had bees for many years said once that all haves have wax moth.

The wax moth I found was surrounded by bees trying to get rid of it.

Like the suggestion of Diatomaceous Eath which I will definately research. I have made a wax moth trap using 1C apple cider vinnegar 1C sugar and 1C water plus the peel of a banana that I found on line about a month ago but as the temps fall???


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## edugan (Mar 15, 2016)

This is for sandmtm. I contscted the breeder of the Purdue leg chewer and he replied that the brood being pulled out is a hygenic behavior. The bees are removing effected brood and thats what VSH is about. Hope this helps with yor question also.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Hello,

Strangely enough I also went through the bottom deep of my hives and notice no signs of wax moth - I don't know if this is something new similar to WM or bees took care of moth or ...
And since I opened the hive, I decided to give them another shot of OAD - of course bees are not too happy 

Also, I probably did think the temperature is warm enough to open the hives, but probably it wasn't so bees were upset and they jumped on me so I had to go 20-30 feet away to get rid of them, but still couldn't clean-up myself, so with that and some bees dropping on the floor, I lost about 100 bees from each hive  but hope this will not affect their life significantly to survive winter.

So many unknowns 

PS: In my other threads I asked about sugar brick and quilt box and inner cover - didn't get a straight answer what combination is good.


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## sandmtn (Jul 7, 2016)

edugan and Artur_M, Thanks for posting your updates and sharing what you've learned. edugan, That is great that you are seeing your bees attacking the moths!

On Thursday before putting the thawed frames back in, I looked at the SBB tray and found what looks like more wax moth droppings. But they're tiny and not much of them. Not in the same area as before but along a section of the frame face next to the removed ones. So looks like they were in more than just the 2 frames.

Called a beekeeper friend who came over and pulled all frames for inspection. We didn't see any sign of wax moths or their larvae. Minor presence is extremely hard if not impossible for a lay person to see by looking at the comb. I put the two thawed frames back in and closed up. I'm attaching photos for those. There are some bald brood and raised cell wall around them but I don't see any clear signs of linear tunneling.

Good news is that my queen is still laying so I'm hoping that the eggs and brood I killed will be replaced. Also friend said colony is plentiful of bees and comb/brood pattern looks good. I saw a mite on one of the nurse bees so mite killing work is definitely not over yet. I've been treating by OAV every 4 days for 4 weeks and had Apilife Var in there for 2 weeks. Last OAV was 2 days ago and mite count since then looks to be several hundred. At least I'm not seeing any DWV or k-wings now.

So discouraged about the wax moths. On a brighter note, I also put out a moth trap and have caught one! And a yellow jacket.

From what I've read, the options for dealing with WMs in an active hive are leave it to the bees take care of them, dig them out if you can find them, freeze the affected frames, or spray with Bt/Certan.

Re drones: My bees start putting them out at end of Sept then pulling/throwing out drone brood mid-Oct. I haven't seen any drone brood since.


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## sandmtn (Jul 7, 2016)

Artur_M, Just now have time to reply re sugar brick, quilt box, inner cover, etc.

I am planning to use a quilt box though not necessary where I am. It will have a (screened) vent so no need for a separate vent piece above that. It will sit under the telescoping cover. No need for an inner cover.

Underneath the quilt box I will put a shim with sugar/candy board in it. I plan on using the recipe Harley Craig recommends in this thread (post #s 4 & 18). http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?319061-no-cook-sugar-brick-is-a-joke&highlight=lauri+sugar+brick

I plan to put rigid insulation board in the SBB tray. 

I bought 2 bales of straw and will set them on the stand north side of the hive.

I still don't know whether to put in an upper entrance. I'm leery about it because I've pretty much had sustained attempts of robbing and that I will be away from the hive for 2 months. I don't trust the local colonies not to rob my girls. One of them is a 50yr old feral one and they are aggressive!

I've had to do A LOT of reading to work through the wintering issues and solution ideas to decide what I want to do. Part of my going so far with it is due to not being around to monitor and take extra steps as needed.

Hopes this helps you get your plan sorted.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Hi guys,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I believe it's the best way to find right approach.

As I posted, I did the inspection last Thursday (11/10/2016) and found no signs of WM and since the hives were disturbed I decided to give bees another shot of OAD (oxalic acid dribbling, which I make the following way: I dissolve 3.5gr oxalic acid in 50ml hot water, then add 1/4 sugar and top it with hot water to 100ml total so I can give 50ml to each hive).
Also I cleaned some burr comb, which partially end-up in the hive and I didn't want to put my hand in to get it - let bees take care of it.

Now I got the following pictures:

Hive #1:






,






,








Hive #2:






,








Here are links higher resolution of pictures:

Hove#1:
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2016-11-14/IMG_1503.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2016-11-14/IMG_1504.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2016-11-14/IMG_1505.JPG

Hive#2:
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2016-11-14/IMG_1506.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2016-11-14/IMG_1507.JPG
http://pictures.manasyan.com/2016-11-14/IMG_1508.JPG


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## edugan (Mar 15, 2016)

Love seeing dead varroa mites!! Nice photos!


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## edugan (Mar 15, 2016)

Just a update on my hive. I made several posts about small amounts of wax moth feces, tore my hive apart several times and nothing. I was old by several of you that something else was going on.....long story short something was. I checked my hive 12/27/17 and bees were dead. I sent samples to Beltsville and was told they died from Nosema. Reading up on what to do to clean out equipment...thinking about changing locations of my hive.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

edugan said:


> Just a update on my hive. I made several posts about small amounts of wax moth feces, tore my hive apart several times and nothing. I was old by several of you that something else was going on.....long story short something was. I checked my hive 12/27/17 and bees were dead. I sent samples to Beltsville and was told they died from Nosema. Reading up on what to do to clean out equipment...thinking about changing locations of my hive.


Sorry for your loss.

You mentioned that you were noticing a feces - are you sure they were wax moth feces?

I am experiencing something similar, but looks my bees are doing well. I was so worry that my one of my hives died, but last 2 days were warm and they were flying perfectly. Poor things can't find any food, although some of them are finding pollen :scratch:

So the big question - are the feces really from wax moth or it is something else?
Do you have any pictures of your bottom boards with feces to compare?


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## edugan (Mar 15, 2016)

I am sure it was wax moth feces. I found pictures on line and it was a exact match. I did it in October and sorry cannot remember the site. 

I do not have pictures.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Did you happen figured out the cause of nosema?
Were you feeding your bees?


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