# Learning Grafting



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I been meaning to give it a try.
I would also do the homemade cups, a rounded dowel dipped in wax seems the easiest.
Not sure the best way to release, seems they would stick.

And I would certainly need light and magnification.

GG


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

On the eye part. Do they make a jeweler's 'eye' with a clip that would attach o to a baseball hat ?
I've not looked online yet but i would think this could help when transplanting?
Btw, taping my Reader glasses didn't work out so well , ok but not magnified a enough .


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I always used the jenter type systems, wish I could graft. I tried grafting out of the jenter as that is the proper size exactly by hrs., there is no way in Hexx that you can graft them at that size, so I stick with the jenter. I've seen the size that people graft and they are to large for my tastes.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

If you got 9 of 12 acceptance then that is pretty good IMO. I grafted Sunday afternoon. I pulled the cloake board last night, but I don't know what my acceptance is yet, I'll take a look this afternoon. This is my first attempt at a cloake board method. However my usual acceptance rate is around 50% so since I have 8 mating nucs I grafted 16. Worse than my acceptance is the number of larvae that I know I mess up. My transfer rate is about one in three. My biggest challenge is that I flip them over or I roll them against the cell wall. I tried a magnifying headband for the first time and although it helped me see to place the larvae in the queen cup, it really didn't help me get them out of the cells. I've tried plastic Chinese tools, bamboo Chinese tools, the JZ BZ tool, and some goofy awkward tool I found on Amazon. So far I've caused the least amount of carnage with the all plastic Chinese tool.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I read somewhere that being deposited other side down is not fatal UNLESS you damaged them in the process. Have not tried to prove or disprove that notion but the article seemed quite well supported.

It has been a few years but I found pushing them off the tongue with the plunger of the chinese tool seemed likely to crush the larvae against the cell bottom. Depositing is far the most difficult for me. 

I may make another needle with smaller end yet. If there is plenty of each end of the larvae projecting and drooping off the tip of the needle type tool, the ends contact the cup bottom and anchor it as you pull the tip back. Yesterdays practice with the smaller needle seemed easier. If you go to slightly older larvae, but still 2 days or slightly less you still have a viable larvae and it is times easier. The one day larvae could ride on the back of a varroa mite with nothing hanging off the sides for a decent comparison.

Older eyes commonly loose the ability for short range focus. You need both focus and magnification for the needle type tool but some experienced people claim with the chinese tool you can just pick up the puddle and go through the motions and things happen automatically without you being able to clearly see the larvae. Probably entirely different technique and may control how precise you need to be with magnification. When you get up that close you lose binocular vision and your depth perception goes for a crap. That part of the game may take a bit of playing with too.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

crofter said:


> I made up a bunch of hand dipped cups but found it difficult to attach them securely to the graft bar. They did seem to get immediate acceptance by the bees compared to the plastic ones you can buy.


I once saw a brilliant Youtube video of a guy who took a plain top bar - ran some molten wax along it's length, and then attached wax cell-cups he'd previously made onto that wax layer. (I'd be inclined to attach them using a soldering-iron I modified with a diode in the plug to halve it's wattage, and fitted with a flat (spade) copper tip)
Then, when the cells were ripe, he simply ran a paint scraper underneath the wax layer to release the cells. 


Ok - I've just come in - very hot and sticky - from placing some grafts above a Cloake Board. In truth I must be the world's worst at this method of larvae presentation - but for the first time ever, I found it to be fairly effortless. Of course, whether or not the bees approve is quite another story.  We'll know about that tomorrow ...

The part I've always found difficult is poking a tool right down to the bottom of a cell, and then trying to lift the larva up whilst the tool is at an almost vertical angle. So this time I didn't ...

What I did was to remove the cell walls (of a white comb) in the area of interest, leaving the larvae nestling in the depressions which form the mid-rib. Then I was able to rotate a brush at somewhere around 20-30 degrees from the horizontal, which lifts the larva up onto it effortlessly - and by reversing the direction of rotation, said larva can then be equally effortlessly deposited into the bottom of a cell cup.

I'll have a second go at this malarky tomorrow, after I've coaxed some nurse bees up above a second Cloake Board Hive I've been holding 'on ice'.
LJ


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

I have the Chinese tool, paintbrush, and stainless tool. The only one that I am consistent with is the Chinese tool. The other 2 give me issues with getting them off.

Some days I am better with the other two but not often. I try to do a few with each on every round to get better. Then I trace my failures mostly to a particular tool.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Glad to see others confirm getting them off is an issue. Before starting I assumed picking them up was the trick!

One idea I entertained in yesterdays practice was to approach the larvae from the back of the curve and just slightly off to one side of center then use a slightly sideways motion as I slid the tool under. Seemed less likely to move the larvae away and against the other side of the cell. Probably lots of little things like that will come together with practice.

I told my wife my bees think I am gawd: when I open a hive I hear them say "oh gawd are you back again!" They wish I would find someplace else to entertain myself.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

crofter said:


> I told my wife my bees think I am gawd: when I open a hive I hear them say "oh gawd are you back again!" They wish I would find someplace else to entertain myself.


:applause:


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

crofter:
are you dry grafting or priming the cell?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> crofter:
> are you dry grafting or priming the cell?


Dry.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I've found that Dry makes it harder to get them off unless they are already floating in a big white pool, not all are, which gets picked up with the larvae and transferred to the cell with no issues. 
Those not floating in a big white pool, but with a fair amount of jelly, benefit from a small drop of water in the receiving cell to float them off onto. Careful as a big drop of water could drip right out when turned right side up.

Water not as good as royal jelly from your own apiary but a fair trade off in limiting damage placing them and the water keeps them from drying out when grafting in the field. Down here, grafts drying before finishing the bar is a problem, as is the drying out of the larvae on donor frame. To combat the drying of the larvae on the donor frame I've taken to misting it with a hand held bottle mister.

I never seem to have royal jelly handy when grafting so use the water drop. As an aside, I don't know anyone who uses purchased RJ from a place like Stakich to prime. Wonder if it would work and the risks involved, sure would be cost effective if the downside is negligible? Got the water drop tip from a Cornell release of grafting. Have you read it?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> I've found that Dry makes it harder to get them off unless they are already floating in a big white pool, not all are, which gets picked up with the larvae and transferred to the cell with no issues.
> Those not floating in a big white pool, but with a fair amount of jelly, benefit from a small drop of water in the receiving cell to float them off onto. Careful as a big drop of water could drip right out when turned right side up.
> 
> Water not as good as royal jelly from your own apiary but a fair trade off in limiting damage placing them and the water keeps them from drying out when grafting in the field. Down here, grafts drying before finishing the bar is a problem, as is the drying out of the larvae on donor frame. To combat the drying of the larvae on the donor frame I've taken to misting it with a hand held bottle mister.
> ...



I just had a look over that article. I see from one of the pictures that my original tool was a bit on the large size relative to the larvae. Will give it a try with priming the cell a bit. Getting the larvae off seemed the sticking point. The priming suggestion seems like it will take some lumps out of that. That, along with the smaller tip and I think this thing is going to fly.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I only use Chinese grafting tool for years now. In a quick hurry I have nicot available. But to be honest I raise queens graft-less 90% of the time. Bees are just to good at making cells to HAVE to graft. I combine comb honey production methods with queen rearing OTS and get very good queens.

Nicot pics:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=597287857096177&set=pb.100004449036160.-2207520000..&type=3
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=597287853762844&set=pb.100004449036160.-2207520000..
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=607384999419796&set=pb.100004449036160.-2207520000..&type=3

Horrible brood pattern from Graft-less queen:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=597277320430564&set=pb.100004449036160.-2207520000..&type=3


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Frank, I have not started any grafts this year and due to a variety of reasons my acceptance rate last year was not that high. Pesky virgins running around in your starter will ruin your day. Anyhow, I use a thinned down Chinese grafting tool to remove larvae from old comb. No can do on new white wax. I use an LED 5x magnifying lamp to see the larvae which look huge at that magnification. I still manage to smush about one out of three. Picking up and depositing them is not bad if you only select lavae floating in RJ. I watched a demonstration where Kirsten Traynor used a German grafting tool and man was she fast with it!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yes you can get some weird situations with rogue virgins or the unbeknownst 2nd queen etc. I have been confused between supercedure and swarm conditions long after I should have known better. 

If you are trying to stage queen rearing requiring coordinating conditions and one part doesnt happen on schedule it gets discouraging. That is one thing about the Snelgrove board is its predictability if you do it before swarming is definitely in their plans. Cloake board similar. 

I would find it stressful to wait for swarm cells to cue queen rearing. Means more going through hives regularly and having bad weather cause the plan to go off the tracks.

Grafting seems to give the flexibility of taking larvae from your queen of choice without needing it to be in any certain condition aside from grafting age larvae. Where you only need a handful of cells I dont think it needs to be a huge cell starter colony to be better than most walk away splits.

If you are looking to create the highest potential queens then stacking the deck every which way you can would be in order. The picture Michael Palmer paints of queen rearing in colonies with an insane number of nurse bees would be an example to follow.

Utility grade queens will suit my needs. My colonies would not be considered intensively managed I be the limiting factor, more so than the queens potential.

I reduced the tip of one of my grafting needles to about 1mm or 40 thou. of an inch wide. That should let the ends of the larvae hang off a bit to enable me to wipe it off onto the bottom of the cup. Will try priming the cups too the next go. Rain forecast the next couple of days so the bees will have a break from me.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

I rounded off 6 - 2" x 5/16" hardwood dowels and put them in a block of wood. I soak the dowels in water for awhile then dip in wax about 4 times, they pull off pretty easy once you get the hang off it. The wax cups fit snugly in the yellow cell holders (Cupularve or Nicot). I use both a fine brush and a chinese grafting tool, some days I'm better with one than the other. I can usually just roll the larva off the brush. If a graft doesn't go well I just transfer the rj from the excepted larva into the other wax cups and graft again. On day 12 or 13 I place the hatching cages on the cells. When they emerge I make up a bunch of minis and toss in the virgin queen. Let them sit in the mini for 24 hours and put them out the following night.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

crofter said:


> Where you only need a handful of cells I don't think it needs to be a huge cell starter colony to be better than most walk away splits.





> Liu (1975) was able to raise a queen on a diet of sufficient pollen, honey and water by using 400 mixed age worker bees. Colonies with average queens laying 1200 to 1500 eggs per day would have several thousands of bees of the proper age (4-10 days of age). This means that great populations of bees in the queen rearing colony are not necessary. But keep the population manageable so the you can handle the colony with little effort


Steve Tabor, Breeding Super bees p23-24

It worth noting that when Liu used "proper age bees" instead of mixed age bees it only took 200 bees to create a queen that when she mated out had the same performance as the standard cell building control

In one bit Tabor talks about regularly starting 120 cells with 2 pounds of bees The Liu data suggests it takes only takes about 10-15% of the bees to start a cell vs finish it

some of what we see is 15+15 game of telephone to "make sure" there are enuff bees


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## Bob Anderson (Jun 13, 2014)

For me, the key to grafting with the Chinese tool is to take larvae from the oldest, darkest, comb. The old comb allows the tool to follow the shape of the cell and curve under the larvae. I only use wax foundation. Unless the comb is old and black, the tool will dig in. Save your old brood combs and 6 days before grafting put one in the center of the brood nest. Graft from that. Also, soak the tool in water for at least 10 minutes before grafting and don't buy just one Chinese tool, get a bunch because some will work better than others. I have grafted many hundreds of larvae with my favourite one.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

There are a few good tips here. Here's a summary.

Maybe I won't worry about depositing them upside down. I flip a lot of them over getting them out of the cells and so I'll quit fiddling with that, just transfer them and see, because I usually squash them trying to get them back over.
Try a brush
contact comb with hand to steady it.
thin and narrow the tip of my Chinese tools.
put a tiny drop of water in the cell
approach larvae from the back
priming the cell. I mentioned in my Cloake board method update that the girls had also made cells on one of the brood frames I promoted above the Cloake and that I was going to keep a couple of those cells and transfer that entire frame. I was planning on culling all but two of them today, I'll harvest the royal jelly. 
soak the tool.
misting the comb with a sprayer before grafting. 
I think I have decided to graft again this coming weekend even though I don't have enough mating nucs. The hive is still set up with the cloake board and it's a chance to try and practice some of these suggestions. If nothing else I'll have some royal jelly for when I graft in August for September mated queens to overwinter.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Some good food for thought;

Let us know on the flipping thing. If it really does not make a difference it might kill a myth! I want to try some of those items too.

I reduced the tip size further on my grafting needles and experimented a bit more with lighting and close up lenses. I may be sharper eyed without my glasses.

More live practice tomorrow, though I dont have a colony set up with the Cloake board.


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## hickdriller (Apr 27, 2016)

Joe May has a good video on YouTube how to sand down the Chinese grafting tool helps a lot.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

my grafting acceptance gets better each year. In my opinion its just a matter of repetitions. Its a skill that takes practice.


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## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

I use the Chinese tool. Sanded down the nib, and bit the tip to create a permanent bend in it that helps a lot with getting it to slide under the larvae without punching through the bottom of the cell.


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## madasafish (Aug 24, 2010)

I started grafting this year at 72 years old, long sighted and varifocal spectacles.

Sanded down chinese tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_lkl6DCCyM 

Bought a second hand Donegan Optivisor 3.5 magnification headband with LED light $50.

5 frame Q- nuc as per https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...seph-Clemens-Starter-Finisher&highlight=queen

13 nicot cups and holders on a frame.

Grafted 12 times - often daily. Checked results next day and regrafted cells not taken..

Went from zero success - and not really knowing what doing - to 60% success rate - .
I found sliding the grafting tool with the rear of the tool against the cell wall furthest from the larva meant I would ALWAYS pick up the larva no matter how small.. as the tongue of the sanded down tool will bend easily to fit the cell bottom.
The 3.5X magnification meant working very close to the cell - approx 3.5 inches - but I could see clearly what i was doing (the Optivisor light is easily adjustable in use to focus on exact cell in use..)


With the magnifier head bound, moving to place larva in cup meant you could focus on that very quickly as see what you are doing..

I am now confident I can graft. Next year I will do it again with confidence..

#

Queens raised to date via grafting: 17.. Time to graft 10 cells - under 10 minutes.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Looked at one of my Cloake-Board hives earlier today - 8 nice q/cells due to be capped in one or two day's time. I had another frame of 16 grafts all ready to go, and had planned to install them in 'the other side' (2x nuc boxes over a divided Cloake Board) - but - it's claimed that all the RJ that's needed is given in the first 48hrs,. so I thought I'd test that assertion by inserting more grafts before the first lot are capped.
I used to think that the presence of existing q/cells would inhibit the drawing of new ones ... well, there's only one way to find out. 
LJ


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I used to think that the presence of existing q/cells would inhibit the drawing of new ones.

not true, I have split hives up with swarm cells, adding in frames of bees/brood/stores from poor hives to get as many as I can.
with a fairly ripe Q cell they often start more, from the added brood.

IE use the swarm hive with 6 frames with cells, and the 2 worst hive in the yard to make 6 or 8 6 frame splits.

here is one from last year 6-7 frames with cells.









so the frames added from the cull/resource hives ended up with E cells, I need to monitor this, else I get an E queen from a cull hive superseding the Queen I wanted.

Test away, I believe it very possible.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Received 000 brushes. No instant success. Larvae does not just _jump on command_, from comb to brush and brush to grafting cup!:scratch: Grafting hook or needle still better for me. 

Will give a try to the idea of misting the frame with water. Larvae seems clingy and hard to get separation both when picking up or depositing. Some people have mentioned some days things just dont go well. Wonder if humidity or condition and amount of milk on the larvae could be a variable.

Still incrementally thinning, shortening , narrowing, the bill on the tool. That seems a plus. Also priming the cup with yoghurt helps greatly floating the larvae off the tool.

At least now I know I know I can get workable grafting done for my needs.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

crofter said:


> Received 000 brushes. No instant success. Larvae does not just _jump on command_, from comb to brush and brush to grafting cup!:scratch:


Dunno if this'll help any, but first I remove the cell walls of the area I'm interested in, to achieve 'a lower angle of attack'. A couple of square inches is plenty. (In 24 hrs that damage will have been repaired and no longer visible.)

Then - looking down onto the larvae from above, and using compass notation with North directly in front of you - I place the moistened brush just South of the larva. While rotating the bristles anticlockwise (around 1/8th of a turn, as if the brush was a screwdriver), I slide the bristles Northwards under the larva, which then rides up on top of the bristles along with a small dollop of RJ.

Depositing the larva into the cell-cup is then the reverse of this: whilst rotating the bristles the same 1/8th turn, only now clockwise - the brush is moved Southwards, away and from under the larva - which stays behind in the cell-cup along with most of the RJ it was carried on.

It appears to be pretty-much a no-touch technique (which is why I like it) - the larva always staying on a cushion of RJ, and the wrist action is similar to that as when using a manual screwdriver. Thus far I've only tried it with white comb - which I love using - but I think it might be difficult to hoik *(*)* a larva out from down at the bottom of a narrow black tube - seems to me that the angle of attack then is far too steep.

The BIG game-changer for me was reading a tip to remove the cell walls first - that took me from abject failure to reasonable success. (Photos in a few days.) Of course, doing that may not suit everybody.
LJ

*(*)* Hoik (verb, UK slang): to lift (usually 'out') without due care or style.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Today was just practice and I felt guilty about really tearing down cell walls. Being able to tilt back is an advantage with the hook tool too. You are right about them healing the damage quickly. I tried cell notching a few years ago and they repaired my notches and built emerg. cells where they wanted them. Independent bugs aren't they?

Having a small spot of juice in the bottom of the cup helps land the larvae. As soon as anything contacts the surface, but before you touch solid you get a visual indication to start pulling the tool back as you lower to touchdown. Lots of little bits of feedback in the operation but they are pretty subtle.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Toothpicks are the best. I think I prefer cutting comb instead of grafting. A closed bin with an ultrasonic humidifier might help.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

SeaCucumber said:


> Toothpicks are the best. I think I prefer cutting comb instead of grafting. A closed bin with an ultrasonic humidifier might help.


How does that work with plastic foundation frames?


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

If you put a small amount of foundation in a frame, you can make a frame that is mostly foundationless, but has some foundation for top to bottom strength. I don't know why people would want to scoop under the larvae.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

SeaCucumber said:


> If you put a small amount of foundation in a frame, you can make a frame that is mostly foundationless, but has some foundation for top to bottom strength. *I don't know why people would want to scoop under the larvae.*


I also employ a modified form of the Miller Method, only using 'white' foundationless comb rather than foundation as Miller did. The big difference between the two methods is one of q/cell uniformity. For all intents and purposes I find it impossible to place roller cages over cut-out q/cells and, as timing is far less precise with natural q/cells when compared with grafting, there is a very real risk of early emergence with consequent disaster without those cages.

For small numbers, the Miller Method is fine, but for larger amounts grafting into Nicot cell-cups (or similar) has distinct advantages - that is, once you've mastered a suitable technique. But both are superior to the use of a Nicot Laying Cage ... 'nuff said about those. 
LJ


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## Bob Anderson (Jun 13, 2014)

I'll say it again: The key to grafting with the Chinese tool is to graft larvae off of the oldest, darkest, ugliest brood comb. I keep my breeder queens on that kind of comb. No need to sand down tool tips, the old comb does all the work for you.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Plenty of jelly in any drone cell. I would think from a QC is better but I am no chemist.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> For all intents and purposes I find it impossible to place roller cages over cut-out q/cells and, as timing is far less precise with natural q/cells when compared with grafting, there is a very real risk of early emergence with consequent disaster without those cages.


There is no reason you couldn't confine the queen to a single comb to provide timing control, and then place a push in cage over the resulting cells.
she starts laying in the middle so you keep the resulting cells off the edges and cageabul.

Been playing with the concept a bit, round of experimentation will be aborted as 40 virgins emerged last night and this weeks sales went flat, I have very few pick ups scheduled for today, going to have to pinch the cells and convert it a bank


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

msl said:


> There is no reason you couldn't confine the queen to a single comb to provide timing control, and then place a push in cage over the resulting cells.


Sure - but that means finding and isolating the queen - not a big deal in itself, but it's yet one more thing which needs to be done when compared with grafting (open the hive, find the frame, graft and finish - all in one visit). Tried push-in cages - bees just bury underneath them.



> she starts laying in the middle so you keep the resulting cells off the edges and cageabul.


 I find cells at the edges are more cage-friendly than those in mid-comb. Have you ever actually *tried* cutting-out cells and caging them ? I've never seen anybody do this successfully (except with home-made cages) - I've spent months trying to crack that one - eventually settled for incubating cut-outs in tiny jars to produce virgins. Best I could come up with.
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Gray Goose said:


> > I used to think that the presence of existing q/cells would inhibit the drawing of new ones.
> 
> not true, I have split hives up with swarm cells, adding in frames of bees/brood/stores from poor hives to get as many as I can. with *a fairly ripe Q cell* they often start more, from the added brood.


Well - on the strength of one single observation only (  ), there would appear to be at least the hint of a suggestion of some truth to this idea of inhibition - depending on whether or not the existing q/cells have been capped. I note that Sue Cobey in her write-up on the Cloake Board method recommends only adding new grafts to coincide with the capping of the existing batch.

In my own case I had 8 advanced q/cells within a day or two of capping. Then I inserted 16 fresh grafts. 2 of the existing q/cells were promptly torn-down, and 2 new q/cells started. Coincidence ? Maybe - but could also be an indicator that 8 cells are all this colony is capable of feeding adequately - and so they picked the best 8. Maybe ?

I'll try a few more in a day or two, once all existing cells are capped.
LJ


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Have you ever actually tried cutting-out cells and caging them ? I've never seen anybody do this successfully (except with home-made cages) - I've spent months trying to crack that one - eventually settled for incubating cut-outs in tiny jars to produce virgins. Best I could come up with.


IIRR you did pill bottles on there side was as well



> Tried push-in cages - bees just bury underneath them


.
got ya.. the advrage US BYBK (the ones that would befit form graftless the most) are mostly on plastic foundation. 





> I note that Sue Cobey in her write-up on the Cloake Board method recommends only adding new grafts to coincide with the capping of the existing batch.


that is to prevent food competition


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

little_john said:


> Have you ever actually *tried* cutting-out cells and caging them ? I've never seen anybody do this successfully (except with home-made cages) - I've spent months trying to crack that one - eventually settled for incubating cut-outs in tiny jars.
> LJ


LJ, I cut the cell out of either wax or foundationless frames and place the qc in a hair roller cage. I use the open end that would normally go on the nicot cup holder and place the roller cage on a board that has holes cut it to accept the bottom of the cage. Only issue I have had is that the fit between the qc and the cage is not tight and I have had the virgin queen get out and be wandering around the incubator. At least she can't get to the other cells.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

The tipping point for me was to not try to get the larvae all the way on the grafting tool. If about half of it is sticking off, you do not even have to push the plunger to gently remove it. I do not remember who's video I was watching.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

minz said:


> The tipping point for me was to not try to get the larvae all the way on the grafting tool. If about half of it is sticking off, you do not even have to push the plunger to gently remove it. I do not remember who's video I was watching.


It seems correct to me that the most likely part of the operation to damage the larvae, is getting it off the tool. Sometimes I think the puddle of food is more sticky than at other times. Initially wants to pull off the tool when you attempt to lift it, then wants to stick to the tool when you want to leave it behind in the cell cup. 
So far my homemade, very tiny hook works better for me than the chinese gizmo.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

JWPalmer said:


> LJ, I cut the cell out of either wax or foundationless frames and place the qc in a hair roller cage. I use the open end that would normally go on the nicot cup holder and place the roller cage on a board that has holes cut it to accept the bottom of the cage. Only issue I have had is that the fit between the qc and the cage is not tight and I have had the virgin queen get out and be wandering around the incubator. At least she can't get to the other cells.


Whenever I've cut-out Q/C's, I've always left at least half an inch of comb all around them. With the comb itself being around an inch thick, that's quite a chunk of wax still attached to the Q/Cell. Sure, this excess wax could then be pared down somewhat, but that risks coming into contact with the Q/Cell itself (which I really want to avoid). This wouldn't be a problem of course if attaching the Q/Cell onto a comb, but I gave up trying to poke cut-outs down into standard roller cages. For a while I tried with some oversize cages - which I believe were actually the central component of a pool filter (got a box-full for silly money) where I suspended the Q/Cell inside them using ****tail sticks poked thought the holes - but then the Chinese knock-off Nicot kit started coming onto the market, and so I decided to stay with that.

As msl says, the best solution I devised re: cutting out Q/Cells was to lay them on their sides in small flat jars with vented covers inside the incubator. That worked well, and I'll certainly use that method again if the need ever arises - but - the standard Nicot kit is so much more convenient to use. Except their Laying Cage, which I've more-or-less given up on - although knowing me, I'll still give it a try from time to time. 

Now I've found that removing cell-walls to fully expose larvae makes grafting with a brush so easy - and immediate (one visit etc) - I can't see me changing from using that method any time soon.
'best
LJ


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I have bad eyes. I have somewhat lost count, but I think I am up to 6 surgeries on my right eye and maybe 8 or so on my left. Detached retinas, cataracts . . . you name it. Plus I have needed glasses since elementary school.

I started grafting in 2017 and I have tried many, many things. I have currently settled on this: https://www.amazon.com/Dicfeos-Head...4128807&sprefix=Magnification,aps,196&sr=8-13.

Looks to be about $20.00 now. I think it was $15 when I bought it. It is cheap and cheaply made. But it allows me to work with my glasses on, has an adjustable LED light that you can target into the cells, and comes with a variety of magnification lenses. It works very well and I could not be happier with it.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Thanks for that psm1212;

Amazon says they have one on the way!


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

psm1212 said:


> I have bad eyes. I have somewhat lost count, but I think I am up to 6 surgeries on my right eye and maybe 8 or so on my left. Detached retinas, cataracts . . . you name it. Plus I have needed glasses since elementary school.
> 
> I started grafting in 2017 and I have tried many, many things. I have currently settled on this: https://www.amazon.com/Dicfeos-Head...4128807&sprefix=Magnification,aps,196&sr=8-13.
> 
> Looks to be about $20.00 now. I think it was $15 when I bought it. It is cheap and cheaply made. But it allows me to work with my glasses on, has an adjustable LED light that you can target into the cells, and comes with a variety of magnification lenses. It works very well and I could not be happier with it.


I've got essentially the same unit, found it in a christmas stocking a couple years ago. Prior to that arriving, my best round was getting 8 out of 15. First time I used it, I got 13 out of 15.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I might give those a try, I have always used https://www.harborfreight.com/magnifier-head-strap-with-lights-38896.html


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have an old omni viewer; no light and trying to perch another LED on top without accurate aiming is troublesome. The description of this unit seems to check all the boxes.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

The thing to keep in mind about the one I have, it's cheap, as in inexpensive to purchase, poor quality build, and just all around 'cheap'. BUT, it's a single use thing I have on the shelf, comes out once a week during grafting time of the year, and does the job. I'm sure there are far superior units, saw one at Apimondia that my wife wanted to buy for me, but it was $400.

The other thing I've wondered about, the lens pieces that came with mine are numbered, and I wonder if it's the same numbering used by cheaters at the big box store. Gotta check some time, wondering if a set of the strongest cheaters along with my headlamp would work just as good, or better. I do find the gadget I have a bit awkward when it's on.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think it is important that the light can be accurately aimed at the point of interest and that the source point be close to the line of sight. If you tear down cell walls this is not quite so important but a broad diffuse light causes more reflected glare than a well focused narrow beam. Panoramic view is not what a person needs.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Talking about tearing down cell-walls ...

I was curious to find out how many people use a brush rather than a hard tool. Seems some, but not that many. But - while searching, I came across this photograph. The woman who posted it uses plastic foundation (as you can see), but even with those 'proto' walls there's still bags of access.










With natural comb the larvae are even more exposed - you could touch 'em with your fingers if so minded - so it's simplicity itself to lift 'em out, regardless of whatever kind of tool is being used.
LJ


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Hope they work for you Frank. You will want to play around with them a little and try out the different lenses and light positions. Hope you find them as helpful as I have.


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## jnqpblk (Apr 7, 2015)

Addressed to little_john
"first I remove the cell walls of the area"

Have pondered that is extremely useful methodology for grafting and came to the conclusion a miniature sickle would be best. ie. Bend an exacto blade at 90 degrees so it could be swept/sickle through the comb wall detaching it easily. Have yet to try it.

Wondering what method of comb removal you use. Wondering if shoving the blade of the hive tool flush to the plastic foundation face removes just the comb walls, and actually leaving the royal jelly and larva in the foundation "divot"?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have watched my son just bulldoze it off with the hive tool; I have picked away at it and seem to have got a lot of little pieces of cocoon drop into the cells. Will have to try it the rough way.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

jnqpblk said:


> Wondering what method of comb removal you use. Wondering if shoving the blade of the hive tool flush to the plastic foundation face removes just the comb walls, and actually leaving the royal jelly and larva in the foundation "divot"?


Yeah - a good question ... 
When I first decided to try this, I went to the trouble of ordering a pack of scalpel blades (I already had the handle) - but these didn't work too well, as the angle of attack was all wrong.

But - the tool I've always used instead of a conventional hive tool is a two-inch paint scraper - so I've been using that by pushing the blade vertically into the comb down to the mid-rib (or as close as I can judge this to be), then while still holding it vertically, drawing it across the comb sideways, as if drawing a curtain. The wax builds up in front of the blade, just as earth does in front of a bulldozer blade, and then comes away as a lump when the blade is removed. Desperately crude, I know - but it works, and works well - leaving behind the exposed larvae in the 'dimples'.

I find in practice there's only need to remove the cell-walls from a few square inches, and the bees repair that by the following morning.
'best
LJ

"Bulldoze" is indeed the word - Frank just beat me to it.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

If the comb has never had a cycle of brood raised in it there will be no cocoons in the cells base and any scraping tool will work to remove the cell walls.

If a cycle of brood has been raised in the comb, the cocoons in the base of the cell will tear and dislodge the larvae. It is best to use new comb and place it in a hive for the tear to be repaired, then the remaining larvae should be removed by washing them out with water. The comb can be put away to be used when a new graft is to be done.

Using dedicated comb that can be removed down to the midrib is a great aid in grafting very young larvae.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

grozzie2 said:


> I've got essentially the same unit, found it in a christmas stocking a couple years ago. Prior to that arriving, my best round was getting 8 out of 15. First time I used it, I got 13 out of 15.


I got this one, essentially the same thing, and used it last time. It helped me see the smallest larvae but it didn't help my acceptance rate, I still got just 7 out of 16. You have to get your head at just the right distance though to get it in focus, I mostly didn't like using it.


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## Outdoor N8 (Aug 7, 2015)

My wonderful, addiction enabling, wife took these.

The glasses were an absolute game-changer, even though they are cheap.
Out of several chinese type tools and others, this one is sharpie marked on the plungers finger end and the go to, the tip has been shaved and readily curves to the cells cocoon bottom.
The right light!
I dry graft and transfer the RJ pool the larvae get a free ride. Slather the chinese tips in royal jelly, when properly lubed things slide better but to much can 'gum the works'

Just like shooting hoops at the line: form and tons of practice!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

psm1212 said:


> I have bad eyes. I have somewhat lost count, but I think I am up to 6 surgeries on my right eye and maybe 8 or so on my left. Detached retinas, cataracts . . . you name it. Plus I have needed glasses since elementary school.
> 
> I started grafting in 2017 and I have tried many, many things. I have currently settled on this: https://www.amazon.com/Dicfeos-Head...4128807&sprefix=Magnification,aps,196&sr=8-13.
> 
> Looks to be about $20.00 now. I think it was $15 when I bought it. It is cheap and cheaply made. But it allows me to work with my glasses on, has an adjustable LED light that you can target into the cells, and comes with a variety of magnification lenses. It works very well and I could not be happier with it.


Thanks for that recommendation; it is perfect. The light can be aimed where you want it and from an angle so as to not cast shadow. Very compact so your hand or grafting tool is not hitting on it. Can instantly flip up the lens only or quickly remove from your head.


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

Based on the recommendations here I purchased the $4.99 magnifiers from Harbor Freight and love them. I have not been able to see eggs in the past, but with these magnifiers I finally did this last weekend, so that is all I need to hang on to them. I like them because they do have easy magnifying options which are easy to manipulate under your veil although when I used the 4.8x power it focuses on my veil netting so I had to drop the power down. With my readers, I always had to tilt my head down to see "normal" which was a bit of a pain, but with these my vision is always normal and I can easily drop the magnifier down when magnification is needed.

Kevin


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Kevinf said:


> Based on the recommendations here I purchased the $4.99 magnifiers from Harbor Freight...


Were they at a store or did you order them? I have 3 stores near me. I was good with readers but this year seems harder.


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## Kevinf (Oct 2, 2019)

They were at my local store. I called ahead to make sure that they had them and they had about 3 on the floor.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Getting good lighting where I needed it was my biggest problem for grafting. I have dealt with various diopter corrections for welding helmet "cheaters" as we called them. Fixed close up glasses, bifocal and finally trifocal glasses. Finally the solution was to challenge the Steamfitters license, went fitting and mostly gave up welding except for a few occasions when my welder was too drunk or stoned.

Everyones eyes are different. It makes it really tricky to get good distant as well as close up resolution when one eyes correction factor is greatly different from the other. The dollar store glasses dont solve those problems but you may find something that works for you for this one limited activity.

The gizmo that psm1212 put me onto is the best that I have tried. I am going to order a pair for my son; he is pushing 50 and usually by that time most of us could use a little help.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I grafted into 8 diy wax cups this morning. My first time actually grafting using the new optics and lighting. Wow! so much easier. Two hours later the bees had altered all 8 of the cups to close the 3/8" opening down to one bee sized hole. Initial acceptance at least appears good. 

I put a little dab of juice taken from a bit older cells in each cup. When you touch the ends of the larvae to the puddle the surface tension makes it easy to slide the tool away and leave the larvae behind.

From Amazon.ca
Binnan Headband LED Illuminated Head Magnifier Visor with 2 LEDs & 5 Detachable Lenses (1.0X, 1.5X, 2.0X, 2.5X,3.5X) for Reading, Jewelry Loupe, Watch & Electronic Repair
Sold by: BINNAN Official
Return eligible through Aug 20, 2020
CDN$ 20.99


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

So glad you like it Frank!!


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Good to hear you have it sorted out Frank.

Sunday I did what may be my last grafts of the season. This whole year I've been using nicot cups because I want to use the hair roller cages. Acceptance has been terrible in the 10-15% range. Sunday I used my trusty JZBZ setup and did 2 bars.

When I checked this morning acceptance was in the 60% range. Maybe I just need to make adapters to use the cages with JZBZ cups?


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Steve in PA said:


> Good to hear you have it sorted out Frank.
> 
> Sunday I did what may be my last grafts of the season. This whole year I've been using nicot cups because I want to use the hair roller cages. Acceptance has been terrible in the 10-15% range. Sunday I used my trusty JZBZ setup and did 2 bars.
> 
> When I checked this morning acceptance was in the 60% range. Maybe I just need to make adapters to use the cages with JZBZ cups?



Why, o' why don't they make a hair-roller type cage that fits JZBZ cups??????????????????


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Bob Anderson said:


> I'll say it again: The key to grafting with the Chinese tool is to graft larvae off of the oldest, darkest, ugliest brood comb. I keep my breeder queens on that kind of comb. No need to sand down tool tips, the old comb does all the work for you.


You are wasting your time Bob , this has been gone over for 15 years that I know of. Dark comb that is one of the secrets, if you want good light use a led flash light with a Chinese grafting tool graft the wet spot look at the tip after you get it out , if not try again . There are hundreds of posts on here about how to graft people just get tired of repeating themselves. This is not hard, oh ya dollar store readers biggest they have.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Why, o' why don't they make a hair-roller type cage that fits JZBZ cups??????????????????


http://shop.honeyrunapiaries.com/nursery-frame


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

psm1212 said:


> Why, o' why don't they make a hair-roller type cage that fits JZBZ cups??????????????????


I made this and used it on the last round. The bar is 1" thick. The bottom hole is drilled 5/8" deep. The bar is positioned so that a cage can just barely be lifted all the way into the hole and then tilted into vertical. When the cage is set back down on the shelf bar the top lip of the cage remains in the hole. The top pocket is 1/4" deep, leaving 1/8" for the lip - I have since enlarged the through hole a little more after the picture was taken so that fat cells fit through easier. Finally, a thin strip of wood slides in, held in place by cleats on the side bars, that keeps the cup from being pressed up by a persistent queen. The top bar can still be used for holding a bar of grafted cups.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

That's a nice arrangement.


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