# Starting a TBH



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Aspera,

I assume you means the topbars from conventional frames
Here's some pics of a tbh I'm building
if you just use the proper dimensions you can interchange with frames (or so goes my theory)









http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/lh/lh.html

I built some stands yesterday, will add pics later

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A top bar for a top bar hive usually is between 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" wide and there are no gaps.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

i have not tried this yet but very soon i will be will be cutting out a slat of wood the width of my top bars and the heighth so when screwed onto the top of a lang frame it will match up with the top bars when they are side by side in a long hive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

How long and how deep are your top bars?

I've had good luck with top bar hives with 3/8" bars with triangular comb guides glued and nailed onto them that fit in a standard medium depth box. Then I put them in a 3 box long box. I CAN (but haven't) mix them with medium frames, but I do like being able to use the standard medium nucs and eight frame boxes for starting the hives.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/TTBHOpen.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/TTBHComb.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/LongHive1.JPG


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Thanks for the imput! A picture really is worth a thousand words. 

Michael, can you use your topbars in a standard medium hive box?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, can you use your topbars in a standard medium hive box? 

As I said, I start them in standard five frame medium nucs and then move them to a standard medium hive and then to the three box long hive. I'm ovewintering an eight frame top bar hive right now in a standard eight frame box.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Mr. Bush, in your middle post above did you mean 1 3/8 instead of 3/8?

Hawk


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They are 3/8" thick to leave a beespace above them. They are 1 1/4" wide. They are 19" long. They have a 3/4" by 3/4" by 1 1/16" by 17 1/2" triangular comb guide glued and nailed to the bottom.


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## Irsqu911 (Nov 14, 2005)

I just finished making my first TBH this evening and have one quick question I am having trouble figuring out. 
Ripped all the top bars down to 1-3/8" no problem. However, I read somewhere but now cannot find what the dementions are for the spacer at the front of the hive you nail in place before the first top bar for the proper "beespace". I think its somewhere near 1/2 inch, right?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I just leave between 1/4" and 3/8" at the front of the hive. I don't have a spacer, but it might be smart to have one. Try one of those "push pin" thumb tacks on each side.







1/2" is a bit big, but might work ok.


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## Irsqu911 (Nov 14, 2005)

I was guessing with 1/2 inch. 
3/8 inch it is. thank you very much.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

i dont nail the first or last spacer(s). the bees will glue it themselves and its a place you can adjust, manipulate or even open up for a entrance down the road.


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## zferis (Dec 24, 2005)

Hi all,
New to the forum and to beekeeping in general, but I just read something about this and thought I'd chime in. 

Irsqu, check out David Tromp's plans in the Alt Hive Guide here.
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/tromp/

He uses 3/16 inch spacers, which seem to work well. I suppose working bees in warmer climates would allow you to just skip using spacers entirely.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

IRsq
one thing i found out with my tbh is that te top bars actually do swell over a season. so while it all might fit real nice in the shop, after a month or so it will be almost impossible to get them back in place. So try to make your spacer adjustable. hope this makes sense to you.

have fun with your tbh!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

And then the bees put proplis on them... the spacing is not constant.


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## Wojtek (May 31, 2005)

I noticed that there are some beekeepers that use conventional (framed) hives and want to try TBH now or combining these two kinds of hives
When I was starting beekeeping, one day I was standing in front of small box full of bees and reading instruction what to do with it. Removing little box with queen and placing it in a new location was within my imagination, but shaking this energetic little creature, what is more, with wings, through relatively small openings, with plenty of dead bees, completely didnt fit my imagination. So, after long but successful scratching my head I drilled a hole (about 2 diameter) I the bottom of smaller box, (see picture), 
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Dwa%20male.jpg
and put this box on the top of packet such way that the hole was above the opening in the packet left after removing a cane with syrup, which I covered with thin cardboard. I slide out this cardboard out and after about an hour or so all bees, still being able to walk, found themselves around their queen in new location leaving only a thick layer of dead bees. Of course, I was very proud of my achievement.
This lead me to another idea when I was reading some posts about problems with transition from framed hives to TBH. I didnt realized this idea because I dont have any framed hives and I dont want to have anything to do with frames, but for some this could be useful, I think. I made animated simplified drawing to help to understand this.
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Schemat2.gif

This could serve as a transition from frames to TBs or with queen excluder and some expansion, as something more permanent to harvest honey in fairly comfortable position. 
With proper utilization of movable partition and adequate positioning an opening in the bottom, paying attention on stability, it could serve both, depending on necessity.


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## PaulR (May 24, 2005)

I've heard the angle of the trapezoid/sides are best done at 30 degrees. Is this the generally accepted angle?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My favorite angle is 90 degrees.







Really, they won't attach it any more than the angled sides and you can make it with 18" top bars set in a 3/8" wide rabbet and use standard frames interchangably. But if you really want to slope it the one most often used seems to be about 22 1/2 degrees or so. Scot McPhersons theory is you want to match the angle of the side of the cell so that it's a straight line on the edges of the cells. That would probably be the 30 degrees. But the bees actually build combs at all sorts of alignment on the cells. Sometimes in rows horizontally and sometimes in rows vertically and sometimes something in between. So I don't know how much it really matters.

Here are some pictures of natural comb.
http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/ian/comb.htm 
Here is someone else's obseration on orientation (Ian Rumsey) .
http://www.beedata.com/data3/natural-comb.htm 
with these pictures: http://www.beedata.com/htcomb/index.htm 

Look at the two bottom pictures to see cell orientation. Some vertical and some not really one or the other.

And some speculation by Ian on the survival of feral bees based on comb orientation.
http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/ian/varroa_cell.htm 

Other natural comb links:
http://www.badassbees.com/freecomb/freecomb.html 

Gravity-independent Orienation of Honeycomb cells
http://www.princeton.edu/~spratt/Assets/Publications/Pratt%202000.pdf 


And other peoples observations on the subject:
http://www.bee-l.com/bioarchive/apr2001/msg103.htm


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## Wojtek (May 31, 2005)

Certainly you will find different opinion about it. Since bees attach combs to sides anyway the angle is less important for me. With my podcinacz or if some prefer undercutter or different tool, this is no problem at all.
I think that shorter TB and closer to 30 degree or more walls, will have less tendency to attach in contrast to long (24) and more steep walls in which will be plenty of attachment, but as I sad, this is no problem for me. What I find important is that trapeze shape of comb is easy to move and remove. Beside this, this shape is closer to natural shape of combs. In my type of construction (full V shape). bottom movable cradle is letting me to experiment with deeper or shallower comb. Also trapeze shape comb is stronger than comb with parallel sides.
Certainly I dont regard this as generally accepted, and I think that the only generally accepted thing is the width of TB, from 1 ¼ to 1 ½.


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