# 1000 hives, how many acres?



## CamWhite

How many acres would 1000 hives need to be healthy, honey producing hives? Could 1000 hives be kept on one property, spread out in 10-12 bee yards? I am hoping to invest in my own, fairly large, beekeeping operation. I want to operate a hybrid of a pollination/honey producing bee farm. The area I live in has tons of blueberry, apple, cherry, strawberry, blackberry, pumpkin, and other fruit farms. There are also a number of dairy farms in the area. I am under the impression dairy farmers like having beekeepers keep a beeyard on site, to help them pollinate and increase their cover/grazing crop, i.e. clover, alfa etc... I hope to have beeyards spread out on different fruit and dairy farms under contract, while keeping a portion of the bee's on my own property(s), allowing them to forage for nectar on clover and other wildflowers. I want to bottle and retail my own honey, making honey the main source of revenue, while also offering a pollination service to local farmers. What kind of acreage do I need to make this sort of bee farm a reality? Would it be better to purchase a number of smaller properties that are spread out?


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## suttonbeeman

Bees fly effectively two miles. If you purchase property just to put 25 beeyards on (40 hives/yard times 25 equales 1000) plus the cost of the bees and equipment you will either go broke very quick or if you pay cash you will never NEVER geta return on your investment. If you purchase a large farm and since bees fly 2 miles you woudl need thousands of acres....not a wise move. You would be much better off finding farmers who would let or want you to place bees on their farm. I usually give them a gallon of honey per yard.


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## CamWhite

But say I have 1000 hives, each hive produces 75-100+ lbs. of honey a year, each lb of honey I sell at retail value for $3 or 4... That makes $225-350k revenue from honey alone. Subtract fixed and variable costs, guess that to be around $200k for the start up year and around $50-100k each year after...the payoff period should be 3 or 4 years, and I should be netting $140-200k+ just from honey after 4 or 5 years, not including other hive products. Granted, this would be hiring minimal labor, running an efficient operation, and being able to sell most if not all of the honey produced.

You're probably right that it would end up being a better investment to find farmers/land owners' wlling to use their property to keep my bees on...

How do you go about finding people willing to let you keep bees on their property? How do you find property that will have a good honey flow? Is it generally difficult to find people that are willing to let you keep a beeyard or a few on their land, or is it usually not a problem?


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## peggjam

"But say I have 1000 hives, each hive produces 75-100+ lbs. of honey a year"

They could produce that much in a decent year, but not packed together in just a few yards...you need to spread them out over a large area. And don't forget there are other beeyards competing for the same resources as yours, so you need to have a fair idea of what each area will support. I usually try to spread mine out in yards with 20 or fewer hives, but that requires an even bigger area in which to place my hives...


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## StevenG

Actually, camwhite, the best advice you've been given so far is to let others own the land, you provide the pollination service for a fee, and keep any honey that is a by-product of the pollination. That seems to be your business model anyway. You don't need to own the land to do the pollination.

But first, do you currently have bees? If so, how many and for how long? If not, you might want to either start out small and build your way to your goal, or work for a commercial beek to get a feel for the business. If it was easy to make money in bees, more people would be doing it. Simply by reading the postings on this forum, you ought to get an idea of the pitfalls, and the annual losses many beekeepers sustain. Plus you've got to consider the capital start up costs as you buy or make the equipment to run 1,000 colonies and harvest the honey and process the wax, etc etc etc.

One beekeeper philosopher has said that the easiest way to make a million dollars in beekeeping, is to start with two million.
Regards,
Steven


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## slickbrightspear

most of your dairy farms are not going to let thier hay go far enough to bloom, at most 10-15% bloom as it will really cut down on the quality of their hay. I am not sure what other cover crops they are growing that would bee good for bees. I would like to know what they are. now you may get some honey from clover in the pasture. but some dairys do very little pasture they just hay and grow corn and feed it just depends on how the dairy is set up.


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## CamWhite

peggjam- Makes sense...I'm trying to find the right location & balance of space for a central location & beeyard, a number of surrounding yards, orchards needing pollination, and distance between them. I'll need to be as efficient as possible. Sacrificing the volume produced, however, does not seem wise, so your right. Do you get usually get a good crop with 40 hives on a yard?

stevenG-I understand commercial beekeeping isn't easy, that it costs alot to get into, and that it can be unpredictable. I'm not getting involved to make easy money. I expect to have a tremendous amount of responsibility managing many hives. I'll have to work hard and smart to be successful. I don't own any bees. I'm a 19 year old college student. I am planning to start a business with my parents financial support. They'll provide most of the capital I need. Finding work with a beekeeper would be very helpful. I've read a couple books and done a lot of research online. Hands on experience would help me gain a much better understanding. I should find work with a beekeeper somewhere this summer. Thanks for your advice.


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## concrete-bees

one thing to remember is that if you are propared to profit 100k a year you have to be propared to lose 150k a year - 

beekeeping is a break even business- you make enough to keep the lights on and try again next year 

as for asking the parents to help out thats really nice but at about $300 per hive x 1000 is $300,000 - thats for the hive and 3lbs of bees - and then it costs about $100 in sugar per hive for the first season - per month that you feed so thats $100,000 per month- most area's feed for 2 months - so that $200,000 in sugar before your first June 

so you need half million dollar load from the perents - in your first 6 months 

i think id take up a Surgons Degree for that price - you will have a chance to pay back some of your loan ... and your back will be straight

starts small - learn from as you go ... and if it all fails you will only own them a couple thousand 

best of luck


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## Tom G. Laury

Listen to concrete advice. He knows well whereof he speaks. Not a joke.


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## elkridge

"A ten thousand mile journey begins with one step." The first year I ever gardened I tried packing 36 tomato plants into a postage stamp plot and got nothing but a jungle of green tomatoes come frost. The next year I tried 12 plants and I had more ripe tomatoes than I knew what to do with. 

If I were you, I'd put two hives out in the backyard this summer, and maybe an observation hive inside and let the bees teach you something that books can't and then rethink jumping into a thousand hives. You'll probably love it, but the chances of becoming a beekeeper overnight are akin to becoming a skilled hunter after one season.


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## gregstahlman

not to discourage you or anything but i honestly think it would take 500k or more to start 1000 hive operation. when you are buy equipment on scale like that it takes alot of money, whether the equipment is used or new. making a 100lb honey crob takes alot of boxes and good bees to pull this off. alot of areas can't make these volumes of honey. and then there's trucks, loaders, buildings, extractors, fuel, feed, labor, insurance, income tax, and so many other expenses that i cant even think of off the top of my head. and also remember there are soooo many variables when making a honey crop. honey crops are not always a guarenteed thing. i'm not sayin it cant be done, but it will take a good part of your life to build a decent bee operation. i am quite sure that there are other beekeepers that could back me up on this.


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## peacekeeperapiaries

elkridge said:


> If I were you, I'd put two hives out in the backyard this summer, and maybe an observation hive inside and let the bees teach you something that books can't and then rethink jumping into a thousand hives


I couldnt agree more:thumbsup: Start small, build up, stay debt free. Get a few hives and LEARN then build your business model. Jumping into 1000 hives with no actual experience WILL be a disaster. Good luck but please take the advice provided.


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## beedeetee

CamWhite said:


> But say I have 1000 hives, each hive produces 75-100+ lbs. of honey a year, each lb of honey I sell at retail value for $3 or 4...


If you can sell 44 tons of honey for $3-4/lb you could the marketer of the year. Not that it can't be done....Bill Gates sold us Windows. And you should be able to get a good deal on that many jars.


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## peggjam

In a good area with constinat honey flows, yes you will make a decent crop with forty hives to a yard...but I like to hedge my bet alittle bit and only place 20 hives to a yard...


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## ACBEES

This is from my experience....everything looks good on paper. It's when you actually start beekeeping all the variables rear their ugly heads. The pollyanna view quickly fades and you find yourself scrambling for answers. 

1000 hive beekeeping equals large scale agriculture. Agriculture equals large investment of money and high risk from year to year. Kind of like a high stakes poker game, only worse.

Start small. The two hives in the backyard scenario is wise advice. I started with one. Learn the bees and everything that can go wrong.....or take your $300,000 and go to Vegas. You'd be farther ahead than going "all in" on a 1000 hive start up.


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## sqkcrk

CamWhite,

Start off w/ 100 hives, purchased from a beekeeper, already on location. Then branch out from there, learning about how many hives YOU like working in one yard. Then travel around where you want to keep your colonies and locate potential yards. Find the landowner and ask them about putting some hives on their property. Explain to them what you want to do, where you thought about putting the bees and why it's a good location for you and a benefit for them. They get polllination and some honey for letting you use their land. Be a good tenant.

I hope that helps.


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## brac

concrete-bees said:


> - and then it costs about $100 in sugar per hive for the first season - per month that you feed so thats $100,000 per month- most area's feed for 2 months - so that $200,000 in sugar before your first June


Come on now, even at $ .50 a pound thats 200 pounds of sugar per hive/ per month. I think your #'s are a bit off.


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## chillardbee

I put an ad in the paper for getting beeyards. I siad something like year round pollenation (i leave a couple bihind when i go into pollenation) and all the honey you can eat. I got 4 calls on an ad that ran for 2 weeks and got 3 yards out of it. I let 2 of the yards go after a year and the other yard has had bees ever since (4 years now) and it's a very nice yard.

If I had the money I'd like to buy properties with 5 - 7 acers each in rural areas where i could rent out the house, rent out an out building (for shop or storage), rent out the pasture for hay, and have a yard of 120 hives in the back. Best part is the people renting the house are like camp guards. I think if I had 5 - 6 such properties that would be nice but since I don't, I, like most of the beeks on here, keep my bees on other peoples property.


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## StevenG

CamWhite, you've had some excellent suggestions made here. I'm not sure about your time frame, but you could start this year with a few colonies, and by time you're out of college you'd know if this was truly your cup of tea. Each year you could build your colony numbers, and line up pollination clients. In addition, you could decide whether or not you wanted/needed to build your own equipment. Then you'd have the business experience to figure out how to take the plunge into commercial beekeeping. 

I mentioned on the "No Treatment" thread wondering if anyone just starting out, to build up to be commercial, was starting out treatment free. I honestly don't know how feasible that is, but I would think it would be more workable starting from the beginning. If you tried it both ways, early on, you might discover which would truly be the most econonically viable for your business plan.

I don't recall if anyone mentioned this, but it doesn't hurt to repeat... see if you can work for a commercial beek. That would save you a lot of grief in your learning curve. You can do this, and I wish you great success!
Regards,
Steven


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## alpha6

Lets just do some simple math. Say you have someone in your area you can buy out because if you are going to try and make a go of it with 1000 packages your chances of seeing any honey the first year and managing that many hives is pretty slim. 

But lets say you could get 1000 double hives out of Calf. after almonds at 140 ea. That's 140k just to get the bodies. Then add in supers with drawn frames...cause if they are not drawn then again you won't get much of anything. So three supers per hive is 3000 at 12 bucks ea. That's another 36K just for hives and supers. So with no other equipment you have 176k. Like others have said, to move these hives into yards you will need a swinger, truck, and trailer. Don't forget that you will also need a place to store supers before they are extracted and then you have to extract and get the supers back on the hives. That means running extraction a couple of days a week just to stay on par with your hives production. A good extractor set up not including the building will run you 85k min. That doesn't include barrel movers, barrels, drip boards, dollies, ramps, scales, and storage for the extracted honey. 

The costs and work it takes to get a 1000 hive operation up and going is really a lot...and that's if you have the yards lined up. Most people I know that don't buy into an operation work their way up. I work with a guy that runs over 4000 hives and does very well, but he has being doing it his whole life and took over for his father...he has accumulated the equipment to run such an operation. Even he couldn't run out and buy everything new. 

Anyway, good luck. Think about working with a commercial guy for at least a year before going at it on your own. You will save tens of thousands of dollars by learning what not to buy which is as important as what to buy.


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## Klaus

Hey Alpha,
Sure wish I could visit your operation, I think your advice is good.
Out on the Olympic Peninsula there isn't anybody that runs more than 20 hives or so. Would be nice to look over a real commercial operation like you and Keith, Tom, Ernie and some of the others run. :applause:
Heck, I even like Hambone's posts.


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## alpha6

Come on out. We just got 18 inches of powder on the slopes for you to ski on. Course 99% of the bees are in Calf. but I do have a couple here at the house that didn't make the cut...so it would all be business.  Summers are even better then the winters...and everything will be up and running so feel free to drop by anytime. Always ready to stop work and chat with other beekeepers.


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## chillardbee

StevenG said:


> I don't recall if anyone mentioned this, but it doesn't hurt to repeat... see if you can work for a commercial beek. That would save you a lot of grief in your learning curve. You can do this, and I wish you great success!
> Regards,
> Steven


Thats the best advice.

I started working for a 'commercial operation' that ran 250 hives when I was 14. even though it's not that many hives, he still produced a lot of honey and that year was the first time my adolecent body ever sweated. through the years of working there and in my own 200 hives, It was a rather relaxed pace. I miss those days.

In 2004 I got on with a real commercial beekeeper who at the time had around 1000 hives. Through that year and the next 4 years that I had worked for him, he was increasing his numbers. That experience brought the term ' practical beekeeping' to a new level for me but more importantly was the discipline to spend 14-16 hour days keeping bees rain or shine. I was payed a wage while I worked there but the experience I got was invalueable.


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## ga.beeman

I think that you have been given some very good advice. I dont think anyone on here wants to see you fail. But I dont think you can run a 1000 or 500 hives starting off. you are looking at what you will make from honey. What if you loose 800 hives the first winter or summer for that matter. and believe me it can happen. there is folks out there that runs thousand of hives and they are about ready to throw up their hands because they are losing so many bees and dont know why. if you can find hives at 150.00 for 800 would be another 120.000 for replacment after you already put up 500.000 that is 620.000 the first year and still no honey. I think that you should start off with 20 hives and keep them for a year and see how many are still alive after the first year. there so many variblies out there and some or out of your control. work for a commercial guy for a year or two and then look at it and see where think you stand. Good Luck David


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## concrete-bees

here is the best advice that i can find for someone wanting to start into commercial keeping

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BxxXWL23Ks&feature=channel

watch all of the videos and take notes - 

its sad but its life and life is rough


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## John Lockhart

You guys are giving him some really bad advice. What he needs to do is buy me out so I can retire! That way he will start out with 3000 hives and be down to the magic 1000 number by fall!


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## Michael Bush

You need about 1/4 acre in the middle o f10,000 acres of sweet clover...


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## dgl1948

You need about 1/4 acre in the middle o f10,000 acres of sweet clover

Michael: You would like our canola fields up here in Canada. Not hard to find 10,000 acres + of yellow flowers.


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## Kieck

I just have to ask, how much experience do you have around bees, CamWhite?


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## loggermike

Concrete bee guy,
Thanks for putting that link on. I hadn't seen that film and was looking for it.
Anyone who has never been to almonds or never had a collapse really should take a good look at it.


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## concrete-bees

logger- yeah it takes about an hour or so to watch all of them - i learned a lot from then - i should start a thread with that link - ill do that today - its worth it to me to take the time to share good info


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## Keith Jarrett

I second that, LM


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## Keith Jarrett

It is sad, but I do see alot of rookie moves in that film.


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## Beeslave

KJ-What rookie moves are you talk'n about? The lack of pollen patties? Signing a contract before the bees are inspected for loss? Not planning for at least a 50% loss?

I'm still waiting for you to publish that book "Why my bees look so good"


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## loggermike

I had to laugh when the old guy from Montana said something like"well we will just have to re-stock the deadouts like we always do --and expect different results next time"


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## Tom G. Laury

That's an old guy from California, actually, Mike. Jim is full of wisdom and experience, been around a while. Just keep doing the same thing and hoping...ha ha sounds like somebody I know well. But really, I appreciate the videos. The utter devastation of knowing you would be way better off if you had never gotten Bee Fever. The selfishness of chasing a dream at familys' expense. This is not what people imagine when they dream of going in to the bee biz, but it is definitely a possibility or should I say a probability especially with out 10 years or more under your beekeeping belt.


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## cow pollinater

I got bee fever and grew like crazy for two years. The guy who brought me to my senses owns ten thousand cows. He told me to learn from his mistakes, grow slow and comfortable and enjoy the bees and time with the family. 
I'm happier now and so are my bees. Sideliner is nice. If they all die tommorrow I'll be fine.


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## Keith Jarrett

Beeslave said:


> KJ-What rookie moves are you talk'n about?


Beeslave, Did you see the part where they were "dumping" in packages at "night". 

When you shake the bees in like that you break the hairs of the bees which has been know to compomise the health of the bees then add January night temps.

Why couldn't they have taken out five frames and set the whole PACKAGE in the hive and put the lid on.

Just some thoughts, don't mean to kick a dead horse but there are reasons there dead.


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## Barry Digman

I watched all 7 parts of the video this afternoon. It was poignant in that the two beekeepers getting crushed seemed to love what they were doing but simply got nailed by something they weren't able to fight. 

The gay beek from Georgia was pretty harsh. To paraphrase him when he was speaking about he and his partner having a difficult time in their relationship; "Partners can be replaced but my bees can't...". Ouch.

I have no frame of reference against which to judge whether or not it represented the commercial side well, but it's worth watching.


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## dbart

I too have been envisioning becoming a larger operation. But boy, what a depressing movie to watch! I am curious if the show is representative of the whole almond pollination business or if it just highlighted bad scenarios. I have to think that there are plenty of operations that have successful outcomes? At least I hope so. Those of you in the business, what would you estimate the annual average loss percentage for pollinators is?


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## Johnny

Tom G. Laury said:


> especially with out 10 years or more under your beekeeping belt.


10 years?! I bet their long and expensive and  first 10 years? Right? Do I really wanna try to do this.


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## concrete-bees

i found the best layout for what Camwhite needs -

Investment Needed for 1,000 Colony Operation
Hive Equipment
1,000 bottom boards @ $8 each $8,000

1,000 covers @ $8 each 8,000

2,000 deep boxes @ $12 each 24,000

20,000 deep frames @ $0.35-0.65 10,000

20,000 deep foundation @ $0.06 1,200

1,000 medium depth boxes @ $8 each 8,000

10,000 medium depth fames @ $0.40 each 4,000

10,000 medium depth foundation @ $0.40 4,000

100,000 frame eyelets @ $2.00 per 1,000 200

2,000 queen excluders (optional) $9.00 each 18,000

6,000 metal rabbets @ $0.08 each 480

50 fume boards @ $9.00 450

1 bee blower (optional) @ $325 each 250

75 gallons paint @ $16-21 per gallon 1,500

1 staple gun and compressor 500

Bees 1,000 packages @ $25.00 25,000

Honey Handling Equipment
Automatic uncapper 1,700-3,000

Frame conveyor 600

Conveyor drip pan 250

Cappings melter 1,000-2,000

Extractor 1,900-7,800

Settling tanks (each) 170-250

Spin float (replaces melter) 3,300

Honey sump 325-800

Honey pump 170-190

Flash heater (optional) 1,000

Barrels (each) new: l6; used: 8

Barrel truck 160-250

Hand truck 125-525

Glass jars (if not selling bulk honey) 17,300

Bottling equipment (if not selling bulk honey) 940

Vehicles
Flat bed trucks (each) 16-1800

Bee booms (each) (mounted) 2,500

Forklifts (each) new: 16-18,000; used: 8-10,000

Pickups 14,000

Warehouse 6,000

Land @ $3,000/acre 20,000
Rent (house and shop/year) 15,000-17,000

Labor
Self 30,000
Help, full time, each 20,000

Help, part time, each 1,630

Overhead
Utilities (year) 2,400

Insurance varies

Workman's compensation, health insurance 13,000


hope this helps you see the "hidden" cost with 1000 hives


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## Klaus

My calculator just went up in a cloud of smoke  Guess I'll just learn how to play high stakes poker with some "friends' that'll teach me real good :banana:


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## Beeslave

Concretebees- no offenses but obviously you are not a commercial operator? That can be seen by what you think is needed for the operation and some of the cost you have stated.

Bees 1,000 packages @ $25.00 25,000-Where can I buy them

50 fume boards @ $9.00 450-I uses cotton towels at $1.00 each and I only need 10 for 800+ hives

Workman's compensation, health insurance 13,000-self employed so not needed and the wifes job provides health insurance

Warehouse 6,000- I pay that for my warehouse and extracting facility a year

Land @ $3,000/acre 20,000-for what?

Rent (house and shop/year) 15,000-17,000-???You already need a place to live with bees or not and the cost of the warehouse/honeyhouse is already covered.

There are many others but I will leave it at that. The idea of making a business work is using what you need and not what you don't


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## concrete-bees

Beeslave

im a slideliner that makes a living

the original poster was wanting to have his mommy and daddy pay for it all 
i just listed things that he will need to think about, most likely he is not married and does not have insurance etc.

he wanted 1000 hives i gave him the basic layout 

also the packages i goofed on - if i buy in bulk i can get them for $65 each - so he will need to add another $35,000 from his parents 

the land is in relation to his post as to how many acers he needed 

this is just a basic layout and is by no means all of what everyone has, needs, or wants but gives a list of things to consider - 

also there is time which i left out - since uncapping 3 supers per hive x 1000 gives you 30,000 frames to uncap and extract - he wont have time to worry about sleeping 

again Beeslave me and you know that it takes money to make money - im just trying to help him see the cost layed out


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## waynesgarden

concrete-bees said:


> ...the original poster was wanting to have his mommy and daddy pay for it all
> i just listed things that he will need to think about, most likely he is not married and does not have insurance etc.
> ...
> - im just trying to help him see the cost layed out


Plus you're trying to belittle his ambitions. If "Mommy and Daddy" would finance my plans, I'd go to them in a heartbeat before I'd go to BofA.

A healthy doe of realism is great. Cynicism poisons your advice.

I wish him well and success in starting a new business.

Wayne


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## Bens-Bees

suttonbeeman said:


> If you purchase property just to put 25 beeyards on (40 hives/yard times 25 equales 1000) plus the cost of the bees and equipment you will either go broke very quick or if you pay cash you will never NEVER geta return on your investment.


Unless of course you count the land itself as part of the investment. As Donald Trump says, real estate is an excellent investment. Of course you wouldn't really see the return on your investment until you sold the property, but at least the kids would get a good inherritance.


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## Bens-Bees

> 1,000 bottom boards @ $8 each $8,000
> 
> 1,000 covers @ $8 each 8,000
> 
> 2,000 deep boxes @ $12 each 24,000
> 
> 1,000 medium depth boxes @ $8 each 8,000


Do you really pay that much for your hive equipment? If so, is it gold plated or something? I usually see deep boxes listed at $8 ea. retail, I of course make mine for less, but I'm sure if you're buying in bulk you can get even better prices than my retail lumber prices.



> 20,000 deep frames @ $0.35-0.65 10,000
> 
> 20,000 deep foundation @ $0.06 1,200


Now I want to know where you can get frames for 35 cents ea. or foundation for 6 cents ea... sign me up for some of that!



> 100,000 frame eyelets @ $2.00 per 1,000 200


These should really be listed as optional.



> 2,000 queen excluders (optional) $9.00 each 18,000


2,000 for 1,000 hives? Seems a bit excessive. I could see 1,000 for 1,000 hives... but not more than that... also there are plastic ones now that only cost about $3.50 ea. retail.



> 6,000 metal rabbets @ $0.08 each 480


What is a metal rabbet?



> Bees 1,000 packages @ $25.00 25,000


You only have to buy bees if you're wanting to get them all at once instead of building up.



> Flat bed trucks (each) 16-1800


Where? Surely that's not new. Sign me up either way.


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## jean-marc

DBart:I'd say about 40% of hives are lost yearly if you don't replace queens. That means if you have 100 today, and you don't split or change queens and you don't have any disasters and you feed them and control diseases you'll have 60 12 months later. Queens just crap out. Some swarm and virgins don't make it... Some strains just don't seem to supercede well. If you move to the next pollination job and there is a virgin inside mating doen't work well. So all kinds of reasons why the numbers go down. Then poor honey crops coupled with poor disease control and the bees are in real trouble.

On the other hand bees have an incredible capacity to grow and multiply. It's the best part of beekeeping. It's one of it's great strengths of the business. You need to be able to do what they need when they need. Sometimes to do this you need relatively deep pockets. 1 hive can be split into 4 easily, 6 or 8 if you know what you are doing. They won't generate much income season 1 and will cost a big pile of cash to keep alive and well but the next season (best crop I ever got) if you are not broke the potential for return can be good.

One golden key of business is no matter what don't run out of cash. Imagine having fantastic bees just before almonds and you have no way of putting fuel in the tank. I understand we have access to credit and the capacity to borrow etc... but you just can't run out of cash. It's at best to costly and at it's worst deadly for the business.

Jean-Marc


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## alpha6

SgtMaj said:


> What is a metal rabbet?


Maybe he was talking about this.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2345/2434965111_2573661692.jpg

:lpf:


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## bigeddie

It would be nice if people giving advice knew what they were talking about. There are folks that need and want sound advice.


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## Beeslave

Long story short-All areas are different with costs, methods, equipment and marketing. Do you home work and see what you need to make your ideas work. As has been stated in this thread earlier. Start small and think big. Always add 25% on to your costs and take 50% off of your penciled income. If you can work with that then go for it.


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## Ian

ya, all that on the initial cost of investment. Doubt he would pay cash for the equipment, probably would have a term load set out, and an operating loan set up. I dont know, on a 1000 hive operation, a term loan for $200000-250000, and a operating loan for $50000 set up,.? 
So, you have to look at your ability to service that debt before youd make the jump into borrowing that much money. Its hard to pencil out borrowing that much cash, and probably harder to find a banker that would lend it to you.

Your looking at having to build your operation to 1000 hives. That way you can build you equity in your business at the same time. Not to mention experience. 
Dont doubt yourself, you ll get it done, maybe in 10-15 years. Start out with 100 if your not already there, build to 500 in 5 years. Thats a reasonable goal with a small time loan. Then take it to 1000 hives after you are able handle it for about 5 years or so.


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## sqkcrk

bigeddie said:


> It would be nice if people giving advice knew what they were talking about. There are folks that need and want sound advice.


Well, I don't know about that, but when someone asks "1000 hives, how many acres?" it sorta says something about how much experience the author has in beekeeping. To me it says that they need to keep bees for a while longer and this question will either answer itself or become irrelavant. Which I sorta think it is. Not meaning to be disrespectful to the author of the Thread. I don't know him well enuf to be disrespectful.


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## bigeddie

sqkcrk said:


> Well, I don't know about that, but when someone asks "1000 hives, how many acres?" it sorta says something about how much experience the author has in beekeeping. To me it says that they need to keep bees for a while longer and this question will either answer itself or become irrelavant. Which I sorta think it is. Not meaning to be disrespectful to the author of the Thread. I don't know him well enuf to be disrespectful.


I agree with you. What I think is crazy are the quantity and prices thrown out here. It sorta says something about how much experience the poster has in beekeeping. The title may seem strange to some but I'm sure the author didn't think it was strange or stupid, just wanted an answer to his question.
Oh well ,I guess if a person has kept bees for a while they forget that they at one time didn't know the first thing about the subject. Now all of a sudden we know everything there is to know and the same things we once asked or thought about are unimportant or irrelavant to people who think about the same things we once pondered.

I still think if you can't give sound accurate advice don't try to fake it. No advice is better than bad advice. IMO


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## jjgbee

KJ, Rookie moves.??? Take 5 frames out and put in the packages? 500 packages? What do you do with the 2,500 frames you took out? Where do you get the time to remove 2,500 frames. Your are migratory and you just happen to have 250 spare hive bodies around to put them in??? Transport them to wherever and bring them back 2 days later for reinstall. Sometimes in commercial beekeeping you don't have the luxury of that much time. I am retired and have time to go on Beesource. I wonder how beeks that are commercial have the time to even be on this site.
As for the vidio. That was real emotional. I knew Wayne Morris and Jim Robertson. Two great people and great beekeepers. That vidio is the real story of the gamble beeks face.
The beek I sold to only had 10% loss this year. NO PATTIES! Just good nutritional bee locations. 100 barrels of honey and 1400 in almonds. What is he doing right????


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## Keith Jarrett

jjgbee said:


> KJ, Rookie moves.??? Take 5 frames out and put in the packages? 500 packages? What do you do with the 2,500 frames you took out? Where do you get the time to remove 2,500 frames.
> ?


Sheese......

Put the frames right up agiast the box, they will be out in a day.

Where do you get time....... Gee let's see, put 2500 in the almonds, have shook over a thousand pounds of bees & made a couple hunderd up for Tom Laury before I moved a hive out of the almonds!


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## alpha6

jjgbee said:


> I wonder how beeks that are commercial have the time to even be on this site.
> 
> The beek I sold to only had 10% loss this year. NO PATTIES! Just good nutritional bee locations. 100 barrels of honey and 1400 in almonds. What is he doing right????


We work smarter not harder and I don't work 24/7 so I do have time to visit and gasp...even post to this site. I'm glad for the beek you sold to. We had 388 barrels of honey and sent 4200 to almonds and we fed patties...who says one way is right and the other is wrong, You do what you have to do to keep your bees strong and healthy. What works in one area may not in another. IE - Calf has a good spring flow...and that's it. You don't feed them and you got nothing but comb come winter.


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## loggermike

>>What is he doing right????

My guess is he is keeping the mites under control.Mites aren't the only reason for all the losses ,but they will still take down an outfit fast.




By the way, i heard the young guy from Washington was doing good now.(I couldn't make out any of the names or writing in the video)


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## hpm08161947

loggermike said:


> >>What is he doing right????
> 
> 
> By the way, i heard the young guy from Washington was doing good now.(I couldn't make out any of the names or writing in the video)


I also hear the gay beekeeper from SC (strange we don't say "straight beekeeper") is doing very well too. More than doubled his operation...


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## Farmsteader

Son, Friend ,Dear Member, 
If i were you i would first contact the SBA , small business Administration and just ask those Ex -Retired Businessfolks what they think of this Venture. IF you really want to start Bee Keeping , great we all want you too, the more the merrier at this junction. But take the wiseman's advice and start on the smaller side with 2-3 Hives then see where it takes you. I am semi-retired, and was in many Family Businesses , also sold Businesses as a living, so i have Examined and Analyzed many , Most where not profitable, i did not offer them unless they were to start with. I am here to learn a great hobby that goes along with Homesteading, and if we are lucky enough to grow into a profitable venture , so be it,especially with no contols with Mother Nature,no matter what you imagine the open, so called opportunities are ,Caveat Emptor,Buyer Beware! Best Wishes, AJ and Denise


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## jjgbee

KJ my apologies, You must be one working guy. I probably should have not commented as I have never installed a single package in 30 years. Never had big losses and had great locations to always do divides. California does have summer flows if you have the right locations. That is the plus side of having only 250-300 colonies and buying out small operations that have great locations.


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## Keith Jarrett

jjgbee said:


> I probably should have not commented
> .


Your comments are welcome and vauled here,I don't want to let it be assummed that this is a cake walk, but having good bees in the almonds is attainable with hard work.

P.S. apologies,nah, sometimes harsh comments spond great ideas & successfull ending.


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## Farmsteader

waynesgarden said:


> Plus you're trying to belittle his ambitions. If "Mommy and Daddy" would finance my plans, I'd go to them in a heartbeat before I'd go to BofA.
> 
> A healthy doe of realism is great. Cynicism poisons your advice.
> 
> I wish him well and success in starting a new business.
> 
> Wayne


THE one thing we can share , is work with someone in the Bee Business for no less than 2yrs and preferably 3-5yrs, then go into BeeKeeping on your own, or whatever Business you decide , it will make you that much more successful and increase your chance of Survival many fold.
Best Wishes, AJ and Denise


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## Broke-T

My father and I have 50 hives and are expanding to 100 this year. I have no experience with almond pollination so I watched the videos.

They left me with a cpl of questions?

I know they inspect the hives going into the almond fields to make sure they are strong enough to be of any use at pollinating. Don't the beeks check their hives before shipping? This video makes it look like these beeks shipped deadout to CA.

When do the colonies actually die out?

The guy from WA bought packages to fill his deadouts and I thought I heard him say that the cost was equal to his pollination fee. If fee is $150 what would average expense be for moving into and out of almonds? $70 dollar packages would still leave $80 to cover expenses.

Just wondering,

Johnny


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## Beeslave

Broke-T said:


> $70 dollar packages would still leave $80 to cover expenses.


A four lb Australian package is almost dbl that. I don't have an exact price but I think they are in the $120-$130 that time of year. Someone correct my price if I'm wrong.


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## Tom G. Laury

*Shipped Deadouts*

Johnny it sure looks like it to me too.


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## hpm08161947

I heard it was to cold to check them when they left for the almonds... does that make sense? Seems like they left too late.


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## JohnK and Sheri

Broke-T said:


> The guy from WA bought packages to fill his deadouts and I thought I heard him say that the cost was equal to his pollination fee. If fee is $150 what would average expense be for moving into and out of almonds? $70 dollar packages would still leave $80 to cover expenses. Johnny


As Shannon stated, the Aussie packages are expensive, but even if the package price/pollination fee is a wash you are further ahead than just shipping those boxes home empty. After all, your transportation is paid for. Even if the pollination fee didn't cover the entire purchase of packages, even if you lost some money, it might still be way cheaper than not getting paid at all, losing your pollination contract and _still_ having to buy bees in the spring.

I do want to add that these are the straightforward economic considerations and are assuming you get your money's worth, don't have to req everything as some have reported, and are willing to risk the importation of another exotic pest, all of which have been named as concerns. 

Trying to pollinate almonds when solely based in a cold climate is more difficult. One of the problems is not being able to easily assess their condition and is a major benefit of staging the bees in the south somewhere, then shipping into almonds right before the bloom. Of those shipping directly from northern locations, many ship earlier in the preceding fall or early winter, so as to be able to do what needs to be done and to assess them just prior to moving them into bloom.
Sheri


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## Bens-Bees

alpha6 said:


> Maybe he was talking about this.
> 
> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2345/2434965111_2573661692.jpg
> 
> :lpf:


That's what I kept coming up with when I was googling it.


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## toad

Out of all of the good and not so good responses from many people one thing that seemed to be left out. Plain old luck! I've seen people that have had bees for years that knew what they were doing lose all there hives and get no honey over years. I've also seen people keep bees that never opened the hive except to pull suppers with honey. So how do you explain this? I think that along with alot of beeking experince and knowledge you are also in need of a lot of LUCK! And the only way I'd ask Mom and Dad to fianance this would be if they had the money to lose!


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## Beeslave

Life is a gamble. You will never win if you don't place your bet.


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## Bens-Bees

toad said:


> And the only way I'd ask Mom and Dad to fianance this would be if they had the money to lose!


Good advise, and I would extend that to taking a loan from the bank, too. If you can't afford to pay it back without any income from the bees, think twice about taking out the loan.


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## toad

beeslave,
Guess I'm not much of a gamler!!


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## Farmsteader

Maybe those lucky ones ,by not opening up those hives except to collect honey once a year and not stressing the Hives was the reason for lucky success!


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## sqkcrk

toad said:


> I think that along with alot of beeking experince and knowledge you are also in need of a lot of LUCK!


I don't know who you are talking about, those who only look in their hives when taking off honey. And I am suspicious about your observations. But maybe you are talking about what you think you saw 20 and 30 years ago?

Luck? Luck has nothing to do w/ it. Unless you mean being lucky enuf to know what you are doing and then doing it.


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## Kieck

I think luck figures into it a bit. Maybe more than a bit. Let me stray from bees to give an example:

Row crops were great here last year. Tremendous yields, the best we've seen on average. But some luck ran against the producers. Grain prices were low compared to input costs. Wet weather in the fall led to fungal growth in some of the crops while they were still standing in the fields. And wet fields prevented harvest of many fields; producers hope to be able to harvest in time this spring to still get planting done.

Management and skill only go so far. From there, we're left at the mercy of "luck" or "fate" or "the cards" or what have you.


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## toad

sqkcrk

No I'm not talking about 20 or 30 years ago. That many years ago there were no mites, no one had ever heard of CCD, and so on. Yes you have to know what your doing. Example A highly rated poker player. Do think he wants to be unlucky? Baseball player? Etc. All have talent but I'm sure they wish for some luck.


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## sqkcrk

toad said:


> I'm sure they wish for some luck.


Perhaps at times they do, but they certainly don't count on luck going there way and having positive impacts on their livelyhood. They depend on knowledge, skill and experience to get them to their goal, not luck. Now, good fortune is always welcome.


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## Monie

Having read through the entire thread, I hope CamWhite hasn't been run off. 

If anyone has taken notice, he's only made 3 posts, all to this thread. He hasn't been back since his last post.


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## Naturegoods

CamWhite said:


> How many acres ..... I am hoping to invest....... I want to operate..........I am under the impression ....... I hope to have beeyards........I want to bottle and retail........also offering a pollination service....What kind of acreage do I need to make this sort of bee farm a reality?


Probably seemed like a simple question, shows little to no knowledge of beekeeping though. Eight pages later, perhaps there is something else to invest in, like ...ummm ... foreclosed rental properties!

(always be sure to click the do not subscribe)


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## 123456789

He may lack experience in beekeeping, but he just got a PHD in what it's like to interact with other beekeepers.


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## kbfarms

That is so funny. I'm finishing up a PhD and at this point (dissertation design and approval) it its very painful.


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## Bens-Bees

Monie said:


> If anyone has taken notice, he's only made 3 posts, all to this thread. He hasn't been back since his last post.


That may only mean that he's too busy to respond. I know when I'm running all-out the first thing to get cut is the time I spend hacking away at the keyboard.


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## Duboisi

I have no experience in commercial beekeeping. But I would have been thinking along the lines of buying 50-100 hives and setting up a workshop. Then I would make a lot of hive-material during the low-season, so that I could do a lot of splits the next season.

If it goes reasonably well, one should have more than tripled the amount of hives by the third spring, and start seeing the money that year.

When there are quite a few producing hives, it should be relatively easy expand by 25% a year and still have a good honey-crop. That is unless there are a lot of deceases and everything else goes reasonably well...


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## Bob Nelson

That is unless there are a lot of deceases[/QUOTE] 

There likely will be, sometimes even if you migrate.......

and everything else goes reasonably well...[/QUOTE]

and it probably will not. Twenty to twenty five years ago the fundamentals you refer to were nearly a given if management was on target. Since then we have experienced multiple new exotic pests and the ever changing (and complex) pesticide game which creates a synergistic nightmare for beekeepers.

And if I may use another big word, there is potentiation of one bad thing when combined with the other. Researchers here in Nebraska are studying this with several pesticides and how they affect honeybees. One plus one equals not two but four, usually in a bad way.

Respectfully, Bob Nelson


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## StevenG

Duboisie, you can do better than 25% increase, you can double each year if you have a mind to. I more than doubled last year, and I'm doubling again this year. I'm in my fifth season, and yes, I've seen money... but it just passes thru for more bees and equipment! :lpf: I wave to it, as it goes by!
Regards,
Steven


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## Missoura

Now in my opinion is not the best time to get into commercial beekeeping but I think serious sideline has a good chance of success.

Over the last decade it seems there are two types of commercial beekeepers. 

Those which have seen large unexplained loss of hives and those which are going to.

This year I have seen commercial beekeepers which had always looked at large hive loss as only a problem of the other guy see those losses. Zac Browning (North Dakota & past ABF President) said in an article in the Washington Post he lost a million dollars last year due to a poor honey crop and hive loss.

Commercial beekeeping is a gamble.
1. lose your hives and you are in serious trouble

2. if doing pollination other beekeepers are always trying to steal your contracts by cutting the price the first year.

3. Today you can never depend on a honey crop. 

4. Honey prices are high but can drop like a rock if Argentina or China gets a bumper crop.

I do commercial beekeeping because I love beekeeping. Every piece of equipment is paid for and I see lean years. last big honey crop was in 1997.

Pollination is dependable moneywise but If I did not have enough bees to fill the contracts or the growers decided to use another beekeeper I would lose my pollination income.

Nationwide honey production is down and feed costs are the highest I have seen. I keep track of what i spend per hive through the year on feed & meds and i think those commercial beekeepers which do not might be shocked to see what they are spending per hive.

I am lucky in the fact I can survive with or without almond pollination. Many today could not survive without almond income. In my opinion half of todays commercial beekeepers would be gone by now if not for almond pollination and the current high bulk honey prices.


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## jim lyon

Though Missoura makes some good points I think there is a bit too much of a negative spin. Seems I have been hearing this kind of negativity for as long as I have been around this business yet through it all there are a lot of success stories mixed among the tales of hard luck. It wasn't too many years ago when we were getting .70 to .80 a pound for honey and almond pollination brought 30 to 40 dollars that folks were understandably pessimistic. Now with prices at record levels one could choose to wait for prices to "drop like a rock", or to say "yeah but what if there wasn't any almond income" or one could choose to look at this as an historical opportunity for those able to rebuild their hives to pay a lot of bills with even a mediocre crop and half of your hives able to make grade next almond season. No question it is harder to keep good healthy hives yet for those who were fortunate enough to come through the winter with good bees (and many did) the rewards were great. My point is where some see only failure ahead many others see opportunity.


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## Keith Jarrett

jim lyon said:


> Though Missoura makes some good points I think there is a bit too much of a negative spin.


Well said, It's a great time to be in beekeeping & a great time to be PAYING ($) attention to the health of your bees.


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## Birdman

If you can sale that much honey for 3-4 dollars a pound. I would just buy bulk and spend my time bottling. Less work, more profit, No getting stung, and your not out 300k for bees.:doh:


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## Bens-Bees

Birdman said:


> If you can sale that much honey for 3-4 dollars a pound. I would just buy bulk and spend my time bottling. Less work, more profit, No getting stung, and your not out 300k for bees.:doh:


Yah, but less fun, too. I know people that have been out a lot more for a lot less fun.


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