# Cut Comb Honey. Foundation Vs. No Foundation



## nortpete (Aug 10, 2010)

I am going to try cut comb honey this year on the summer flow. I am curious as to others experiences with doing this. Do you prefer thin foundation or letting the bees draw out the frames with no foundation. I will be using medium frames just in case they do not fill out the edges entirely there will still be room to cut the pcs.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I prefer thin foundation, installed with a 3/8" space between bottom edge of foundation and bottom bar of frame. You can use a starter strip and allow the bees to finish off the comb. Success with comb honey depends on the strength of the colony and the strength of the flow. When both are strong, it doesn't matter if you use a full sheet or a starter. On a slower flow or if the flow ends halfway through, your cut comb honey will be drone rearing comb....no matter how much drone brood the bees have down below in the broodnest.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I have tried it both ways and prefer the foundation for cut comb. Now for just chunk honey foundationless frames are ok. Here is a pic from this year. http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.ph...64089330&type=1&theater&notif_t=photo_comment


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## Yucca Patrol (Mar 31, 2012)

I've been experimenting with foundationless frames, with a total of 10 frames spread between two hives.

The bees drew out the first four frames magnificently from nothing more than a paint stirrer stick glued into the slot. Today I will check my hives and see how they have done on the next 6 frames. 

My plan is to use some of this for chunk honey, so it doesn't have to be perfectly straight, but so far it is anyway.


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## Kristen beck (May 1, 2012)

johng that is beautiful! We are trying the ross rounds this year, we've had lots of interest in the comb honey. We have two wickedly strong hives so we thought one of those would be good for that little experiment. We shall see!


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## Bee Macy (Apr 24, 2012)

I also did a super of cut comb this spring. I had so many people asking for it. Is there anyway to prevent them from leaving cells with pollen in them? Is this a normal thing? It doesn't bother me, but I don't know about my customers. I used a thin comb foundation and it was all beautiful except for a little pollen cells here and there.


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## French Lick Apiaries (Nov 11, 2011)

I don't want to chew on commercial wax even if it is "thin foundation". Foundationless comb honey is the best!

Natural Comb Honey


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

I use a 1 in, starter strip of thin foundation, they drew out 12 supers (10 frames each) of almost full frames (most were full frames) of beautiful white capped comb honey, sold all of it at the farmers market.:thumbsup:The supers came off of 9 hives. I've got 15 supers ready to go for next spring.


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## French Lick Apiaries (Nov 11, 2011)

brooksbeefarm said:


> I use a 1 in, starter strip of thin foundation, they drew out 12 supers (10 frames each) of almost full frames (most were full frames) of beautiful white capped comb honey, sold all of it at the farmers market.


I used to use a starter strip but decided it wasn't necessary. Now I just turn down the top-bar wedge on new frames or use an old empty frame and they draw the comb just fine.

Capped Foundationless Frame


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

FLA, either way works, but i found that a starter strip will get them drawing comb quicker and straighter. The starter strip doesn't have to be 1 in. it can be less, it gives them a guideline to draw comb straight in the frames. I sell comb honey in the clear plastic sandwich boxes, so it has to be drawn straight. I tried pouring melted cappings in the gap of the frame and wedge, but they still drew comb in every direction which was alright because i sell chunk honey also.


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## nriekert (Sep 4, 2013)

I just bought a hive from a country bee keeper. It has two deep bodies with frames but no foundation. the bees have done their own thing. I didn't inspect the bottom as I didn't want to rile them up. They are hanging out at the entrance. There is a queen excluder between the bodies. I am worried they might swarm. I am a new keeper. Should I take the top body and excluder off and put another box in the middle and then return the excluder and other box?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The worker size cell cappings on foundation look more uniform and attractive than the drone/honey storage cell cappings of foundationless frames. Foundationless is of course more "natural" and less work. I place one foundatonless or thin foundation frame between each drawn comb in nine frame spacing honey supers or thin foundation frames ten to a box.

The 3 3/4" cutters make four tight cuts from shallow frames and fit the clam shell boxes Mann Lake sells with little comb wasted. The 4 1/8" cutters make three full cuts and one smaller cut from medium frames with some top and bottom comb lost. The uncut comb goes into the capping spinner so is it not wasted. They fit the hard plastic boxes sold by Kelley and Dadant. 

Does anyone know where to buy a 4/14" inside clamshell box that fits the 4 1/4" cuts well? The hard plastic boxes are very pricy with freight but sure look nice and are reuseable.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

I don't understand? If the frames don't have foundation, are they empty or do they have drawn comb? I would break the hive down and see what is going on in the bottom box (brood chamber) to see how strong it is, is there brood, is the queen laying, and if all looked good? I would take the excluder out,put foundation in the frames (if their empty) set it back on top and feed. feed, feed.( and leave the excluder off) I don't know your weather pattern in Ky. and if you have a good fall flow or not,here in SW Mo. we usually don't.


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## nriekert (Sep 4, 2013)

They have foundation just not the manufacturered kind. They are doing it au natural. 
Will the natural comb hold as much brood and honey as the other manufacturered.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

Yes , if they draw the whole frame out, the foundation gives them a head start and something to work with.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is there anyway to prevent them from leaving cells with pollen in them? Is this a normal thing? It doesn't bother me, but I don't know about my customers

I sort those out and charge extra for the ones with pollen.

> Do you prefer thin foundation or letting the bees draw out the frames with no foundation.

I prefer foundationless. First and foremost because it won't have contaminated wax in it. But also because thin surplus on a hot day tends to collapse.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

odfrank said:


> The worker size cell cappings on foundation look more uniform and attractive than the drone/honey storage cell cappings of foundationless frames..


I've had pretty good luck getting pretty comb from foundationless. 









I've found that my colonies seemed to go through a period of building some drone comb in swarm season, but after that was over, they went back to drawing regular worker-sized comb.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Sorry, double posted.


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## nriekert (Sep 4, 2013)

Looks fabulous. Thanks for all the help.


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## ScienceGirl (Oct 24, 2014)

I'm looking to try producing some cut comb this season...
After all my research on foundationless vs foundation, if you let the bees build their own comb you (a) won't have to worry about munching on a mixed assortment of chemical surprises and (b) don't have to purchase and install foundation.

Those swarms really love to build up comb, maybe I'll give them a couple frames to work on...


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## ScienceGirl (Oct 24, 2014)

That comb looks lovely!


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

brooksbeefarm said:


> I would take the excluder out,put foundation in the frames (if their empty) set it back on top and feed. feed, feed.( and leave the excluder off) I don't know your weather pattern in Ky. and if you have a good fall flow or not,here in SW Mo. we usually don't.


Old thread I know... why leave the excluder out? 

Mike UK


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## Kcnc1 (Mar 31, 2017)

John, 

That picture is your foundationless correct? Or is there a thin foundation in the middle of those chunks?


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I would not leave the excluder off especially for comb honey. Now I do leave it off at first but just long enough for the bees to start working the foundation then I put it on.


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