# Catching swarms - the odds?



## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

fngrpepr said:


> Hi
> 
> What are the odds of actually catching a swarm in a trap? Are we talking about 10%, 50%, 90%? How many of your traps actually get a swarm?
> 
> Joe


I put out 10 around the neighborhood and got squat. So not sure. I will try again next year and see what I get.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The chances are improved with every swarming hive within range of your trap. I got ten at one site last year. My best sites are near the apiaries of fellow beekeepers. If you see lots of bees visiting the flowers in your trap area, chances are good you will catch one. Protect your combs from wax moths, and at the beginning of your swarming season set it back up on it's stand laced with a few drops of lemongrass oil. Or divide it up and spread it around your trap zone.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's like fishing. I spread mine far and wide and got about 20%. But if I put more where I got those I get higher. If I put more where I didn't get any, I'd get less. I would not count on getting bees that way if you want to get started beekeeping. Buy some and put the bait hives out to get more.


----------



## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

Swarms are sometimes other peoples problem bees, that if you bring back to your yard become your problem. Good bees are too easy to increase to do that. With enough feeding you can turn 1 hive into 25 in three years, if you know what you are doing, and you know what you've got at the end of that three years. One sick swarm can kill a whole yard.


----------



## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

I ran at 40% last year. Spread all my traps out at least a mile and only put 2 traps in one location if I saw a lot of foragers in the area. I have the best luck catching swarms in town and near big woods. When your driving down the road look around you and if you say to your self "man look at all these possible places bees could be" put up a trap. 

-Dan


----------



## papamoose (Apr 7, 2010)

Last year I lost the two hives I started with, so out of desperation while I waited for my Nucs to show up, I put a trap out on an old stump along side my driveway along side some wild blackberries. 5 days later I had a swarm, and was back in bees-ness, and it ended up as my strongest hive, going into winter heavy.

So is it worth it? If you have a nuc, some drawn comb(or can make one easy, plans all over this site), few empty frames, and a cotton pad with some lemongrass oil and a place to put it, what do you have to lose what ever the chances are?


----------



## Dave E (Jan 8, 2011)

Dont know if this counts as I wasn't "fishing". I moved across the country, and after my last hive died at my mothers farm she moved all my old bee hives under cover to keep them out of the rain. At some point a swarm moved in. That was about 4 years ago. I've been in the hive once while I was back for vacation. They are still going strong. Mom reported them flying about 2 weeks ago on warm days. Thats no medication, no feeding, no nothing. I REALLY want splits off of this hive. I have convinced my nephew to go in and spit them since I wont be there. This is all in central SC.

Dave


----------



## Daddy'sBees (Jul 1, 2010)

As in real estate, location, location, location. While fishing, 10% of all fishermen catch 90% of the fish. Just don't forget to use nasonov, called the “come hither” pheromone, inside each swarm box!


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

fngrpepr said:


> ..... and were advised to put out multiple traps since it was unlikely we'd get one. Next thing we knew, we had 3 giant snapping turtles which took the better part of a day to butcher.


You know, just because you caught three, it doen't mean you have to eat all three! The advice to put out multiple traps was good. Put out as many swarm traps as you can make and your odds increase with each (as Michael Bush noted.) You will only wind up with an apiary full of new hives if you want them. Can't imagine it would be hard to find homes for every excess nuc you catch. If one of your packages is slow to build up going into summer, you could always strengthen it by combining it with an an excess swarm hive. You could always maintain one or two of them as nucs for queen insurance or replacement for deadouts. 

I'm making dozens of trap nucs to spread around the region this coming season. I'll be happy with a few, delighted with dozens.

Wayne


----------



## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

_"Swarms are sometimes other peoples problem bees, that if you bring back to your yard become your problem." _

That is the first time I've ever heard or read [bee journals/books] something like that; certainly not something that has been mentioned as a "warning" of some kind like using old used woodenware without "scorching" it first. Is this something you learned from experience or in talking with other beekeepers in your area? For right now, all I can think of is acquiring a line of bees that might have a propensity to swarm or with Africanized genetics. I would think a swarm would issue from a fairly healthy and successful hive. Is it foul brood you are thinking of? Many beekeepers like to get bees from isolated cut-outs that have been surviving for a while without medications, "hoping" they are getting some survivor genetics and they are also "swarms" in a sense.

I can understand if a beekeeper is trying to maintain a bee yard that has good winter survival rate year after year, and wouldn't want to introduce a swarm there, with perhaps unknown "genetics". 

odfrank, who has posted here, gets a lot of swarms but also has lost quite a few hives apparently.


----------



## BeeAware (Mar 24, 2007)

You can get swarms with no traps at all. Just let people know that you will remove swarms from their property and you'll get several. I get more bees each spring than I need.


----------



## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

Nasnov phreomone seems to be the best way to go about attracting swarms.

http://www.sfbee.org/pdfs/SwarmTraps.pdf


----------



## knoxjk (Sep 10, 2010)

This year I've built 30 nucs and plan on putting them out with lemongrass oil as lure. I plan on putting 1 in a 1 mile radius. I live in N. Texas how early would anyone suggest I put then out? I have spotted several hives in trees up and down a creek bottom close to where I live, any suggestions on best location to catch those swarms. Thanks!!


----------



## Stanisr (Aug 25, 2010)

I am planning on setting out 12 traps this spring, I will place them out on March 1 in locations that I scouted last year that had the most activity. I have purchased swarm lure from two different suppliers to be used along with lemongrass oil. I would like to know from those of you that have years of experience, which commercially produced swarm lure workes best for you?


----------



## fngrpepr (May 9, 2010)

Thanks for all those replies. I'm surprised how high the success rate is for some of you, I would've guessed it was much harder.

When you guys talk about driving around and putting out a bunch of traps spread across a few miles-- are you putting the traps on public lands / wooded areas? Or are you putting them on private property? With or without notifing the property owner?

Just curious how that works.


----------



## Stanisr (Aug 25, 2010)

As I said before, I have scouted all of last year for the ideal spots to place my traps this year. I have noted spots where lots of bees are working, as well as located ferel colonies in bee trees. I always get permission from the land owner before placing the trap. I have realized that many ferel colonies can be located near urban areas, I guess it is because of the numerous flower gardens around the houses. But bottom line is you must scout one year in advance to really be sucessful and even then it is still fishing.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

All of mine are on private land with their permission. I suppose if you use something with minimal investment you could put it in a well concealed place in a more public place and maybe get away with it.


----------



## knoxjk (Sep 10, 2010)

When I put my traps out this spring I am going to get permission to put them out, just show the land owner what it is your going to put out. Being a land owner I respect anyone who will ask first. Bring then a jar of honey in the fall and I feel you'll have a place to trap bees forever.


----------



## bigbore (Feb 25, 2008)

I listed my name and number with the local animal control last year, got 16 calls in 30 days got a swarm from each, so what are the odds??? 
pretty good if you do it right.....


----------



## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

I put out 7 bait hives and caught 6 swarms, 2 in one box. There are no commercial beekeepers in our area. Only a very few hobbyists. My bait hives are old derelict 10 frame deeps with plywood for bottom and tops. I put old frames and top bars with some old dark comb in the boxes. I drill a 3/4" or 1" hole in one end and put a couple of nails across the hole to keep mice out. I used swarm lure from Bjorn Apiaries (ebay). I am not sure what it is exactly, but it does smell like lemon grass oil, which I have used also.

Our area is mountainous and wooded mixed with pasture and residential development. Plenty of places for bees in a tree. Of the 6 I caught, 3 were worth saving and are wintering fine. The other 3 were weak and did not build up. I should have combined them instead of spending any time or effort. 

I put mine about 6' to 7' above ground (I have read 8' to 10' is best). Most are on friends property where I have permission, and they are anywhere from 1 to 4 miles apart. I usually do a drive by every week in April, May, and June or I have people check for me.

You can get lucky and get some good bees. I recommend using standard equipment to saving doing a cutout. Swarms can build a lot of comb quickly so you want to transfer them as soon as possible and set the box back out for the next one.

Good luck, Richard


----------



## woodyard (Apr 12, 2005)

I have been putting out a few traps for the last few years. I have caught 2 swarms per trap from severall of them each season. I only have them out from about first week in April thru mid June. I use some old comb with lemongrass oil to bait them. I look for areas that I see bees on flowers and also areas with known bee trees or other colonies.


----------



## Fogducker (May 6, 2010)

I'm thinking of using an old 10 frame deep with old comb as a trap, set up like a 1 box hive with bottom board etc. Does this sound like a decent set-up and where does one get that lemon oil scent?

Fog


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I put out 7 traps last year in 3 different locations and got one swarm. So for me in 2010 I had 14% success with swarm trapping. Four of the traps are located in various treelines on the 30 acres my apiary sits. Ironically, even with drawn comb, lemon oil, in 5-frame nucs I've never seen nor trapped a swarm in my own apiary. I know they've swarmed on occasion I but I've never seen it. I got only 4 swarm calls though I'm on just about every swarm list out there.

The most successful trapping location I've got is my own back yard. My apiary is 3 miles away and I've got marked queens. The swarms I've caught don't have marked queens so I feel pretty confident they're not mine.


----------



## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Fogducker said:


> I'm thinking of using an old 10 frame deep with old comb as a trap, set up like a 1 box hive with bottom board etc. Does this sound like a decent set-up and where does one get that lemon oil scent?
> 
> Fog


Perfect setup! You can get lemongrass oil on ebay for a few dollars. It's enough to do a lot of traps.

-Dan


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Fogducker said:


> I'm thinking of using an old 10 frame deep with old comb as a trap, set up like a 1 box hive with bottom board etc. Does this sound like a decent set-up and where does one get that lemon oil scent?
> 
> Fog


Your set up sounds good as long as you make sure to protect that comb. I recommend some BT. Sundance sells it. It's a harmless bacteria (to us and bees) that sits dormant until it is ingested by a wax moth caterpillar (or any other caterpillar for that matter). Once active it eats the host from the inside out. In short it keeps your comb safe in an all natural way.

As for the lemon grass oil, any "natural food market" normally sells lemon grass oil in little glass bottles for around $5. Some people use lemon scented pledge but I don't think the scent lasts near as long.


----------



## Stanisr (Aug 25, 2010)

The only concern I would have using a standard box setup is the size of the opening. You might use an entrance reducer so the bees can guard the entrance more effectively. As far as the lemongrass oil, ebay is the answer.


----------



## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Fogd- 
The old 10 frame boxes with old comb worked very well for me. You can get lemon grass oil from most health food stores. It only takes a few drops. You can get lure from many bee supply outlets. I have never seen the suppliers describe exactly what their specific lure is made up from, but I do know they work. What I have read is 8 to 10' above ground is best. Most of mine are around 6 or 7' because they are easier to get to.

Picts-http://picasaweb.google.com/rkereid/SwarmTraps2010#

Richard


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Very cool photos. Thanks for sharing


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I've had an empty TBH sitting out for the last couple years. I had one Lang medium frame of comb screwed to a top bar. Last summer I had a swarm move in. Leave a used empty box sitting around with a bit of comb in it. Odds are good with that.


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Very interesting how you created a wired frame in a TBH. I've never seen it done like that.


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Every year is different, every location is different.

My first year trapping, I got a late start. I caught my first swarm the first week the trap was up. Put those bees in a hive, reset the trap. The next week, another swarm. I started worrying about ordering more equipment and started making plans for a larger extractor.

The rest of the summer yielded zero swarms. The next year, same plan, no swarms. Last year we had a long, depressing rainy spell in late May. No swarms the rest of the summer.

YOu can't tell, but that's why I hang the traps. It gives me the opportunity to catch bees, but certainly can't be counted upon to necessarily provide the bees.

Grant
Jackson, MO

http://www.swarmtrapping.homestead.com


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Barry said:


> I've had an empty TBH
> 
> The construction of that hive and it's frames look so much more time consuming than a Langstroth. What is it's advantage?


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

No advantages claimed. It's the result of some ideas I had that I wanted to test.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Barry said:


> No advantages claimed. It's the result of some ideas I had that I wanted to test.


Well, it caught $75+ of FREEBEES, paid for itself already.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

The Nasonov (=Nassanoff) gland secretion is available through Dadant under the name Swarm Catch. I got 100% hit rate last year (2010) in my bait hives that had it. They claim 50% to 80% is more common. They were well-placed. Do keep it frozen when not in use. Re-use or re-freeze it after they draw out some foundation into comb and add honey and /or brood. I caught good bees and ornery bees in my bait hives, although the ornery ones are getting used to inspection and seem to not mind so much when I'm bringing them patties and syrup. One would be wise to quarantine new swarms until the brood can be evaluated. They're always peaceful the first week, but once it becomes a home to them, the ornery ones get defensive. Re-queen if docile behavior is a high priority of yours, but I don't. I keep new swarm queens at least a year to check honey, wax, and propolis production, wintering, and disease resistance. They should be good for two years - watch the brood pattern density.


----------



## Brandonc (Jan 20, 2011)

What kind of traps is the best for catching swarms?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The Nasonov (=Nassanoff) gland secretion is available through Dadant under the name Swarm Catch.

I'd bet money it's just lemongrass oil. And I'm certain it's not actually the gland secretion from bees although it simulates that. I've used Lemongrass Essential Oil and Dadant's and Brushy Mts and Mann Lakes and they all work equally well. Adding some of Mann Lake's "Bee Boost" helps some but it works just as well as "queen juice" (alcohol from a jar of old queens and alcohol). But Lemongrass Essential Oil is the most beneficial part of all of that. Old comb helps. An old box that has had bees in it helps.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Michael B., you could be right. I do smell something that is NOT Nasonov secretion, and could be lemongrass oil, as a similar smell is also in Honey B Healthy. The smell I notice when a swarm queen accepts a nuc box and the bees come out and fan their wings to give off the Nasonov smell is slightly different, somewhat sweeter, but combined with fresh foundation smell, so I'm not absolutely sure.
Fresh beeswax, old drawn comb, honey, and pollen all help. And, as I mentioned, my trap nucs were all placed well. The calls I took for swarms that didn't pan out each got a baited nuc for a few days. I figured that the swarms were around somewhere near. While all the ones with Swarm Catch worked (15 of them), so did some others without it. The sad part for me was that so many very small, late swarms occurred and I had to combine them into just a few hives with the newspaper trick. Better a few strong, overwintered colonies than a bunch of dead ones, though. Sure wish I had drones right now. I'd love to have mated queens for next week to split those colonies early. BTW, I love your website! And thanks for the Queen juice tip!


----------



## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

Wish me luck! I have set out 10 traps, all of them are Dcoates easy 5 frame nuc boxes. I dont have old comb but I am using the lemon grass oil. I have tons of bees around and I am not a beekeeper yet.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There is one component of Nasonov missing from lemongrass essential oil. But it's in rose essential oil. A drop of that added to a larger amount of lemongrass oil might help.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Michael B, this is getting interesting. I'll try the rose juice. I have an idea - rearing an extra bar of queen cells just to make queen juice (evil, I admit) for an attractant for trap hives. Do you know a scientific name for lemongrass? I may grow some.

Also the package on Swarm Catch strongly recommended use in combination with Bee Boost.

Thanks so much for the tips - I love free bees, even the ornery ones! My meanest swarm colony produced a lot of honey last summer - I left it all for them, being their first year - and they have 14 frames of brood going already.

All my trap boxes were placed in flowers visited heavily by bees, all were near swarm calls that had disappeared within 3 hours of the call, before I got there. I probably just didn't see those swarms.

I hope to commit more boxes to trapping this year, and your suggestions will be followed. I may even change out boxes just to get fresh used bait hives. I'll use my cut-out chunk comb wired to frames for bait hives, just to move it out of the straight combs, as they are looking older this year. They seem to cause more burr comb and bridge comb to be built, anyways. Thank you again!

Grant - great link!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have an idea - rearing an extra bar of queen cells just to make queen juice (evil, I admit) for an attractant for trap hives.

It takes a mated queen to make a significant amount of QMP.

> Do you know a scientific name for lemongrass? I may grow some.

Genus: Cymbopogon
Various species: 
Cymbopogon ambiguus
Cymbopogon bombycinus
Cymbopogon citratus
Cymbopogon citriodora
Cymbopogon flexuosus
Cymbopogon martinii
Cymbopogon nardus 
Cymbopogon obtectus
Cymbopogon procerus
Cymbopogon proximus
Cymbopogon refractus
Cymbopogon schoenanthus
Cymbopogon winterianus

>Also the package on Swarm Catch strongly recommended use in combination with Bee Boost.

I think that works best, but just lemongrass oil works pretty well.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks again, honored guru!


----------



## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

The easiest swarm to catch is the one that is hanging on a tree limb directly above the hive where the swarm originated. It's even easier if the hive is in your backyard and you observe the swarm in progress.


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Yep, that is why I love my crepe myrtle....swarms love to cluster in it....walk up, cut off limb....dump in box!!


----------

