# Triple Deeps, Benefits of Larger Hives



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

For those of you who keep larger hives or are interested in the benefits or potential drawbacks of keeping larger hives, what are your thoughts?

How does this affect honey production?

How does this affect survivability?

How does this affect spring buildup?

As some of you know, I keep large hives, typically three deeps or better, and I return honey supers after extracting and leave them on over winter. I find this to result in large broodnests, limited swarming, and high winter survival rates. I have not had problems with hives tipping over in winds up to 40 mph, with a cinder block on top. I also find larger hives to be easier on maintenance, not needing to be checked all the time, generally able to keep things in order. In fact this year, due to my schedule, I was not able to inspect any of the hives more than once a month, and still managed a higher average honey production. I probably lost a couple swarms, but as usual, there were no signs of having swarmed in most hives.

I cannot make a good comparison on honey production but from the limited knowledge of other beekeepers around here, my average is on par even after leaving honey and feeding only if absolutely necessary.

I have decided I do not like 8-frame hives. Mine swarmed this year and then died out after failing to requeen. It was three deeps and two mediums, high maintenance, always wanting to swarm, though that may have been due to genetics rather than hive size. Those genetics are gone anyway, so that's that. I'll probably get the hive going again, just because it's there.

This would be a good place to discuss Tim Ives' methods as well, so we don't derail other threads.


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## Karolus (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm interested in experimenting with the larger hive. I run all mediums, so my base size is 4 boxes, 10 frames. They are all foundationless, started with a bee weaver Queen in one that superseded in her 2nd year and raised the other Queen. I consider both hives to be still establishing, one has a 5th box, the other is at 4. One has a top entrance, and based on the bearding, the other will have one by this weekend. These are treatment free hives.

If there is a fall flow I hope to see a nice surplus, harvest everything above 4 boxes and place them back on for the winter. Additionally I will pull 3 frames from each to start nucs to over winter.

I intend to go at least 3 years to hopefully get the full gambit of weather to see how the experiment plays out.


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

I began wondering about _Taller_ hives several years ago after doing some cutouts. In all of my 2 deep hives bees used to have trouble fitting in there in the summer after the queen really started laying. The brood chamber was constricted at the top of the by honey stores and the bottom just due to a lack of space. In the tree cutouts there always seemed to be comb down below the brood chamber. A lot of times in early summer the comb would be dirty and unoccupied, by the end of summer the bees were cleaning this old nasty comb and were further down, but always had comb below. 

Since going to three deeps (along with using top entrances) I don't seem to have bearding to the extent I used to, they can all get in. 

As far as checking on them, my bees were opened during the 2nd week of April and the second week of June. At those times the only thing done to them was to add supers. I have totally abandoned the idea of opening the brood chamber and taking out frames to observe bood patterns and other trivialities. Out of 30 I have only lost one all summer. 

Many beekeepers are quick to say "that won't work for me!", and they are exactly right IF THEY NEVER TRY. It is working for me.

Jason Bruns


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

LetMBee said:


> Many beekeepers are quick to say "that won't work for me!", and they are exactly right IF THEY NEVER TRY. It is working for me.


Exactly right, in many contexts. Moreover, we often hear about how it (whatever it is) won't work at all, coming from people who've never tried it.

Does anyone else leave supers on over winter?


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm just a beginner, so all I can say is that I've thought about it a lot, but it seems to me that big hives have certain advantages over smaller colonies. In a big booming hive, certain problems don't seem to arise-- wax moths, SHB.

Also, you don't need to have tall hives to have a big broodnest.









The yellow one is my boomer. I started it from a nuc in March, and it has been amazing. Even though I've taken 2 splits from it, and lots of resources for weaker hives, it's still full of bees, a dozen frames of broodnest and a dozen honey frames in addition to the few I've taken already. If it makes it to next spring, I expect to have to super it, and I can get 9 supers on it without the whole thing being more than chin high. It's very stable; it will take a hurricane to blow it over. Of course, we do get hurricanes here now and then.

Each long hive has 32 frames, so a little more than 3 deeps.


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

Solomon: My two mentors both told me I was wasting my time building 15 swarm traps back in 2010. They said.... THERE ARE NO MORE FERAL BEES THEY ALL DIED. 

I had 5 hives back then and 30 now and give away extra swarms every year. I replace my losses every year with swarm catches.

What I do here may not work somewhere else, but it is worth experimenting a little. In this time of *Experts* it is almost as though people are afraid to experiment a little on their own.


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## bsteineman (Mar 26, 2013)

I run a few hives that are 3 and 4 deeps tall with no queen excluder. The queen loves to lay all the way up and down the hive. I think this is great for the bees because it replicates a tree and allows the queen to choose where she wants to lay depending on the climate. Last year I pulled 50 lbs of honey off one hive, created 5 nucs and this will be their 3rd year surviving treatment free.


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## ForrestB (May 26, 2013)

I myself want to try building up larger colonies. I only started last year but I have noticed that in my area (northern Spain) people overwinter in one box, take pretty much all the honey they can, and most colonies die during the winter. It is routine here for beekeepers to bait all their hives in the spring because they are all empty. 

Last summer (before I knew who he was), Oscar Perone visited a town about an hour from me and set up a lot of his "Mk II" hives. But his original hives were just tall stacks of Langstroth boxes, three for the bees, the rest honey supers. His technique have a lot in common with those of Tim Ives - very large colonies, leave a large quantitity of honey/pollen for bees, no feeding, and no treating. The result (from what I have read/understood) is colonies that produce more (a large population brings back more nectar and pollen), are more resistant to disease and mites, and (because weak colonies are allowed to die), have, after a shake out period, higher winter surviveability. 

An interesting figure that Tim Ives stated recently on another thread is that three boxes will sustain a population 300% larger than two boxes. I confess I don't know how he arrived at this figure but I intend to ask him and because he seems to be very meticulous I am inclined to believe him until I find out otherwise. 

Great topic for a thread, thanks!


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

LetMBee said:


> Solomon: My two mentors both told me I was wasting my time building 15 swarm traps back in 2010. They said.... THERE ARE NO MORE FERAL BEES THEY ALL DIED.


That's a surprisingly popular belief. I had some difficulty understanding why some folks wanted to believe this so much, until I realized that it was all wrapped up with the treatment management philosophy. In other words, the notion goes, all the feral bees died because they were not treated. Therefore, if the honeybee is to survive, we must treat.

You can present evidence of feral bee survival until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't matter.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

I'll be trying it on 20 or so hives this winter. Expensive experiment.

Don


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

D Semple said:


> Expensive experiment.
> 
> Don


...if they don't do well.
But potentially a very _profitable_ experiment if they do.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Is what we're talking about is 3 deeps with 20+ frames of brood with stacks of supers? 300% as many bees? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. Do feral bees in a large cavity have larger populations than in smaller ones? Is a queen that much more productive with more space? Are these hives always populated enough to deter SHB and moths? Etc., etc.


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

Bergendo: heck there is no reason for a Beek to go out today and convert all of their hives to 3 deeps. Experiment with a small number of hives and compare to the hives that that you left at 2 deeps. 

The way I look at it 1 extra deep and 10 frames is cheaper than coming up with a new colony to replace a deadout.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

rhaldridge said:


> You can present evidence of feral bee survival until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't matter.


I've done that. "There aren't any feral bees. Your bees will be inbred. You're a troll." says the newbee to the ten year veteran of Beesource. </rant>


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

To read Tim Ives' what/how re: 300% more population in 3 deeps than two, see post #45 on this thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Colonies-Do-You-Need/page3&highlight=tim+ives


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Beregondo said:


> To read Tim Ives' what/how re: 300% more population in 3 deeps than two, see post #45 on this thread:
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Colonies-Do-You-Need/page3&highlight=tim+ives


The way I read Tim, and maybe I'm wrong, is that the three deep hive produces 300% more bees *early*, because the bees have the resources to brood up before the first flows of the early spring. Eventually the difference is not as great, but because he gets lots of foragers early, he is able to harvest honey from flows that other beekeepers aren't able to, because they don't have enough bees then to fully exploit the flow. Pollen and nectar have to be there before brooding up, but in Tim's big hives, that stuff is already available to the bees-- they don't have to go out and find it before the queen can start laying a lot.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I missed that thread. Thanks, that helps. I've been reading his posts with interest for a while but sometimes they seem a little cryptic.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Beregondo said:


> ...if they don't do well.
> But potentially a very _profitable_ experiment if they do.


Maybe, depends on what your honey productions most limiting factor is. 

I'm positive I could double my honey production if I just had 4 more weeks of flow. 

Our summer dearth has just started here and I've got great big beautiful productive colonies sitting around with their thumbs up their butt eating through stores. 

Don

Question Sol, you said you harvest and then put your wet super back on. Do you leave empty supers on over the winter?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

D Semple said:


> Do you leave empty supers on over the winter?


I do. The only comb I store anywhere else is that of hives that die after freezing starts and are therefore unbothered by wax moths until spring.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

does anybody have trouble finding queens that are capable of that? seems to me that less than maybe 5% of the queens will use more space? possibly a certian strain??? My carniols don't seem to get much more than a good solid deep full of brood....


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

rhaldridge said:


> The way I read Tim, and maybe I'm wrong, is that the three deep hive produces 300% more bees *early*, because the bees have the resources to brood up before the first flows of the early spring.


That was my understanding as well; once the early bees work themselves to death there is only 50% more brood area available.



gmcharlie said:


> does anybody have trouble finding queens that are capable of that? seems to me that less than maybe 5% of the queens will use more space? possibly a certian strain??? My carniols don't seem to get much more than a good solid deep full of brood....


Most of that 300% more doesn't come from a queen laying at a higher rate, but beginning to lay about a brood cycle sooner according to his post.
With a larger space and more stores the winter cluster is larger, and able to heat more comb up to brooding temp earlier in spring.


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## Eddie Honey (May 30, 2011)

I'm in my first year of 3 deeps. I have mutts, Carniolans, and certified Russians from Carl Webb. All 3 strains have used all 3 deeps for brood. This is my first year with no swarms although I suppose that could still happen. Some bees are in 8 frame deeps and some are in 10's. Some have screened bottoms, and some don't. 
The honey harvest has been good. Along with the medium supers, we harvested 3 frames out of each top (3rd) deep and gave the bees back foundationless frames. One week later and they had 1/3rd to 1/2 of those frames drawn with new wax.
I like the 3 deep system because when I need resources for a split or for queen rearing, taking from them doesn't seem to set them back hardly at all. I still have quite a few 2 deep systems that I hope to turn into 3's next year.
These 3 deep hives are now refilling medium supers and we'll use those to beef up nucs and 2 deep hives for winter.


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## arrowwood (Apr 11, 2012)

rhaldridge said:


> The way I read Tim, and maybe I'm wrong, is that the three deep hive produces 300% more bees *early*, because the bees have the resources to brood up before the first flows of the early spring. Eventually the difference is not as great, but because he gets lots of foragers early, he is able to harvest honey from flows that other beekeepers aren't able to, because they don't have enough bees then to fully exploit the flow. Pollen and nectar have to be there before brooding up, but in Tim's big hives, that stuff is already available to the bees-- they don't have to go out and find it before the queen can start laying a lot.


Yes, my understanding is that his hives are FULL of brood and foragers before other's even have a single brood cycle. He is supering up for maple, deadnettle, chickweed flows before everybody else builds up on dandelion


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## arrowwood (Apr 11, 2012)

I don't think Tim leaves supers on for winter, but I do know he uses both top and bottom entrances and wraps with tarpaper. The majority of his stock is feral.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I should have mentioned this in the other thread that was talking about 3 deep hives... I do have some rather large long langs. A few of which are the equivalent of about 3 or 4 deeps. Most of these are usually about 3/4 full at any given time and they make A LOT OF BEES. Once they get up to speed they seem to be pretty self sufficient except for the feeding in of the occasional empty frame or two to ward off swarming by keeping them busy drawing comb. I let two of them overwinter with all their stores and they came out of winter with most of their honey intact and absolutely jammed with bees. I have been using them mostly for making nucs to start other more traditional hives. 

I usually don't do anything with them except swarm prevention.

I have 8 of these critters. The other 14 of my hives are 8 frame lang deeps. I started with them years back when I thought I might want to try something different, and they have their advantages - such as not being recognizable to vandals that they are a bee hive. I use them mostly in places where you would not expect to see bees, like in vacant lots near town, etc. - sort of a guerilla tactic i guess.


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## dpbntn (Mar 1, 2009)

Read Dee Lusby's "Back to Biological Beekeeping", free on this site. I had the priviledge of helping Dee one day a week for about eight weeks a couple of years ago and the typical hive in all of the yards are 5 deeps - bottom three for brood nest - top 2 for honey. These are booming hives, not "Tonka Toy Hives" as Dee says, and probably not the best for begining beekeepers or urban locations. Swarming is kept to a minimum, honey production is high - you would have to ask her the #'s - and this is in the Sonoran Desert. Also, all of the frames/foundatioin have been Housel (sp?) positioned, so typically no empty frames. Honey supers are left on over the winter, as Dee removes one filled frame at at time to another deep for transfer, and BeeGo/Gone or any other chemical or treatment is never used. The greatest testimony to successful beekeeping without treatments that I have witnessed. With that experience - what I consider a master class in commercial beeking - I have followed Dee's formula (with the exception of hives that I have in the urban Tucson enviroment, which are smaller). I lose a couple of hives a year (I have about 50) to the queens dying out, but to the best of my knowledge I have not lost one to disease. Yes, they're semi-Africanised, but there just honeybees. David, Tucson Honey Company


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

David - I very much am interested in what fellow desert beekeepers do. I purposefully avoid most of the industrialized ag areas and place my hives mostly in the desert or mountain environments. I know I could yield a larger harvest if I did not, but I also do not have to worry about poisons, etc.

We are in an "AHB" area too, for what it is worth. Yeah, occasionally you see bees that match AM Scutellata, but mostly they are just wild bees. Usually very, hardy. I used to have mine tested, but gave up when 90% came back as African, even the ones I bought from reputable breeders(the ones that didn't die). The only ones who did not were some vicious dark bees I got from a mountain top. Far more aggressive than anything i ever encountered in the desert. For what it's worth that was my experience. I have not decided whether it is just another ploy to make an industry, where we have to be constantly purchasing new queens, or for killing our remaining wild bees to support pest control or what. maybe I am just cynical.

I just requeen anything that is too runny, or aggressive.


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## ddb123 (Jun 20, 2012)

I'm interested in expanding the brood nest. This is only my second year and I run single deeps. However, I don't use queen excluders. Only once in the past two years has a queen ever ventured above the single deep, and then only laid about half a frame of brood (which was filled with honey as soon as the brood emerged). Do you guys tempt the queen upward by moving frames of brood up? I live in SW MO (not much north of Solomon) and I'm kicking around the pros and cons of moving to double deeps. I have Russians and I wonder if they would avoid some of the cons of double (or triple or quadruple) deeps because they slow brood production to a crawl in a dearth.


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## 779Hybrid410 (Jan 18, 2013)

I use 8 frame 12 inch deep supers and require the extra volume for winter stores. I winter with two deeps. I have never had a hive of three deeps survive a winter (most likely I am doing something wrong). Then add medium supers for honey production. I also use quilt tops.

This was a better year for bees here up north as all my April packages have filled two of my 12 inch deeps with newly built comb on wax foundation and was able to harvest a frame of honey from each.

This winter I'll make some 14 inch deep 8 frame supers to experiment with.


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## Kirk Osborne (Oct 7, 2012)

I have 1 triple-deep hive and the others are double deeps. My trriple-deep doesn't have an excluder. I also have drilled a 3/4 inch hole in the top deep as an upper entrance. The bees will use about half of the top box for brood and there is a nice honey-bridge that the queen stays below. Honey production is excellent. The bees don't seem to swarm as often as the other hives and the hive is unquestionably strong. I am treatment free as well, but I also utilize a Screened Bottom Board(SBB) and slatted rack. The queen won't lay all the way to the bottom with a SBB - I find that the slatted rack helps bring her down some, but still not all the way down.
In the next couple of years, I may convert all of my hives to tripple-deeps. 
One issue with tripple deeps, besides the weight, is that the queen can be difficult to find sometimes - if that is important to you. I generally don't look for her for too long, it is easier to note if there is a healthy brood pattern and brood at all stages.
Good luck!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Kirk Osborne said:


> I generally don't look for her for too long, it is easier to note if there is a healthy brood pattern and brood at all stages.


This is an excellent and efficient practice. There is no need to find the queen, only eggs. In fact the more you look for her, the more you endanger her and risk hurting or killing her.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm

The "unlimited brood nest" concept seems to mean somewhat different things to different people but it almost always involves leaving more honey over winter and not restricting the queen during the brood rearing season. Some do three deeps or equivalent with an excluder, some don't use an excluder. But I think most if the build up of the hive comes back to G. M. Doolittle's "millions in the bank plan". Bees who have the resources to rear a lot of brood in the spring will. I guess I don't see that this has anything to do with depth or width of boxes, but everything to do with leaving extra stores and leaving plenty of room for the queen either by not using an excluder or by giving them plenty of brood space.

The old ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture used to have an entry for "food chamber" which was that 3rd deep full of honey over winter.


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## wissler (Jan 27, 2012)

> Do you guys tempt the queen upward by moving frames of brood up?


 That's what I do by moving a couple brood from below and then placing stores on either side, then replace the space with small cell foundation or small cell starter strips. I only maintain 14 colonies, 4 of which are in 3-4 deeps now. The goal for me is to get all of them built up into 3-4 deeps. Following concepts of Dee Lusby, Michael Bush and now what Tim Ives is doing, more bees per hive and leaving enough stores on for winter is working for me. Basically its small cell brood (more bees and more efficient bees), unlimited brood nest, no excluders, chimney effect ventilation, and solid bottom boards. I started with 2 packages, the oldest from 2010 superceded this year but is still in 4 deeps with supers on top of that. The rest are swarm catches, cutouts and splits. Swarm trap catches from last year and one from April this year are now in 2 deeps, hopefully 3 before the first frost. I put empty wets back on the hive or give some to the new swarm catches and leave on after the last extraction over winter. The bees take better care of them than I can.

So far so good with regard to pests, swarming issues and hive loss. To me, a strong hive with sufficient stores is better equipped to handle dearth, pest and disease. 

Mike in N. Tx


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I think the same can be accomplished with two deeps if properly managed. Overwintering with a larger young cluster with stores in excess is more important than extra space. I have used 3 deeps and it is less work to reach those numbers than in a two deep system. Until the beekeeper has the extra deep box of comb the same high pop can be gotten thru proper rotation and checkerboarding. (This once again is more work)


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

Kamon: that's just it. I can spend time with "management" on double deeps, OR I could just have 10 more 3 deep hives. It costs me more initially, but only visiting hives monthly and not worrying about coordinating my days off with good weather is woth a lot. Three deeps just make things less stressful.


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## cade10 (Aug 24, 2012)

All in all the three deeps works better for me, kind of a northern climate here - but even if food isn't the issue I think just having the numbers - especially in the spring is. I know they use alot of food overwinter but there are good points to larger sized hives.
Some people take the opposite approach and run smaller brood cluster strains - like russians or carnolians. I have tried and overall it wasn't a roaring success.Problem for me is simply this.
If I keep a big cluster and numbers they burn alot of fuel over winter but survive - I am running Italians by the way. They can also handle a traumatic event much better, I guess you could say even if alot die from something there are still alot left to fill the gaps and keep the show going. 
They don't always survive but with a little care they are pretty dependable workhorses - not racehorses, maybe big producers, maybe not, but they are live and that is very important to me as things can be changed by re-queening, splitting, other manipulation.

Bees that have lesser numbers, smaller clusters use less food but don't build as fast ( I have a short season here ) they don't recover as well from a shock to the system, like an accident, robbing, etc....
Bottom line for me is dead bees don't make honey, I don't care about a huge harvest, survivability is my main criteria, then I worry about the harvest size. I do do this for production and profit but loosing hives and having to start over, buying packages especially is really a wallet draining experience. If you get a few to split in the spring it helps but splits have to come from strong hives and the best way I have found to keep them strong is to keep them large and in good condition....
Some queens just ignore anything above the first box or second but if I get one that likes to really get loose and lay I just give them room and let them go.
I have one now that is laying all the way up into the super - 4th box - eventually it will get filled with honey and she will move down, she is an ambitious queen - I did a couple splits off her hive and they are doing better than average as well.
Some luck, some genetics, some environment but if you get something that works let it work.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

D Semple said:


> I'll be trying it on 20 or so hives this winter. Expensive experiment.
> 
> Don



Numbers game. 30 doubles or 20 triple. 60 hive bodies either way. If you lose 30% of your doubles and put resources on other 20. You still end up with 20 triples. As long as losses wasn't due to AFB.

Your next problem will be, enough supers to contain everything from swarming. 

My area pollen starts coming in 3/11 on average.

If hives are not supered early enough. My triples start swarming 4/27-5/9. Doubles 5/26-6/11


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Solomon Parker said:


> This is an excellent and efficient practice. There is no need to find the queen, only eggs. In fact the more you look for her, the more you endanger her and risk hurting or killing her.



Agreed..... If all hives are set up the same. There's a fairly close average activity of hives. Anything below average I'll check why.
I can look at a yard of 50 hives and tell within a few minutes if there's a problem with a hive.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

arrowwood said:


> I don't think Tim leaves supers on for winter, but I do know he uses both top and bottom entrances and wraps with tarpaper. The majority of his stock is feral.


I'll do my last extraction 1 st week of Oct. Put supers back on for bees to clean. Take back off after a good frost. They'll go back on first week of April. 

Being in the lake effect snowbelt of Lake Michigan. Nothing to get couple feet of snow, so I like having the upper entrances. But don't over ventilate top. Back 05' made my top groove on inner cover equal my bottom reducers. The bees propolised them down to a couple bees width. So I listened to them when cutting others.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

gmcharlie said:


> does anybody have trouble finding queens that are capable of that? seems to me that less than maybe 5% of the queens will use more space? possibly a certian strain??? My carniols don't seem to get much more than a good solid deep full of brood....


What's going to happen if you multi generationally raise something a certain way for decades vs something unadulterated?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

interesting point, but if the queens never use that space its wasted woodenware. So far I have not seen a queen that actually uses that much and lays well. I treied 4 hives this year with unlimited brood nest, and none of them (all feral stock) did anything to talk about..... so, there is a trait in those queens that is different. hence my question. just wondering out loud...


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

gmcharlie said:


> interesting point, but if the queens never use that space its wasted woodenware. So far I have not seen a queen that actually uses that much and lays well. I treied 4 hives this year with unlimited brood nest, and none of them (all feral stock) did anything to talk about..... so, there is a trait in those queens that is different. hence my question. just wondering out loud...


What resources did they have to start off with in springtime?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Most of those were in double deeps with a super. Decent food supplies. can't really tell you haw much as i didn't record it last fall.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> Numbers game. 30 doubles or 20 triple. 60 hive bodies either way. If you lose 30% of your doubles and put resources on other 20. You still end up with 20 triples.


Tim, every place is different, not sure what works for you will work for me here. I run all 8 frame mediums so to try you're method on 20 hives cost me about 1200 lbs. of honey this year at an average price of $4 / Lbs. = $4,800. 

Double those cost if my wife if reads this thread  . That's enough of an experiment for one year.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> *Your next problem will be, enough supers to contain everything from swarming. *
> 
> My area pollen starts coming in 3/11 on average.
> 
> If hives are not supered early enough. My triples start swarming 4/27-5/9. Doubles 5/26-6/11



Unless your in a constant state of growth how is it I'd run short of supers every year? 

Thanks for your help. 

...Don


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

D Semple said:


> Tim, every place is different, not sure what works for you will work for me here. I run all 8 frame mediums so to try you're method on 20 hives cost me about 1200 lbs. of honey this year at an average price of $4 / Lbs. = $4,800.
> 
> Double those cost if my wife if reads this thread  . That's enough of an experiment for one year.



It's not about how much honey you leave on them. Hive dynamics thru out the season. If you secluded the queen to certain brood area, that's the area they'll equalize too.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

D Semple said:


> Unless your in a constant state of growth how is it I'd run short of supers every year?
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> ...Don


Constant state of growth. The number of supers dictates how many hives I can super next year. The balance of the hives get split into 3 full hive body splits, with 2 new hive bodies added to them. 

Supering 50% splitting 50%. With 8% average losses since 07, I've increased each year. Even if I was to occur a national average 30% loss I would still increase 10%.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

D Semple said:


> Unless your in a constant state of growth how is it I'd run short of supers every year?
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> ...Don


I would have to occur 30% losses 3 years in a row to catch up on having enough supers to contain. Putting less supers on the hives increases probabilities of hives swarming= less honey.....


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> It's not about how much honey you leave on them. Hive dynamics thru out the season. If you secluded the queen to certain brood area, that's the area they'll equalize too.


:scratch:

So, I should leave empty drawn comb in the overwintering hives? 

Maybe below the active brood nest?

I don't feed, so I have been restricting super space some on our fall flow to push the queen down into the bottom boxes going into winter.

Don


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

D Semple said:


> :scratch:
> 
> So, I should leave empty drawn comb in the overwintering hives?
> 
> ...



Whatever your original plan was, stick to it. To late in the year to change hive dynamics now. Which goes back to the original point of the 30(2)vs 20(3). If you lose 30% of the doubles, no big deal putting resources on in late winter on live hives gives the hive resources/ room to increase early. The hive isn't going to be equal as a overwintered triple which had the whole previous season. The biggest difference is the number of winter bees in the 2 systems.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

My original thougt behind using the 3 deep system was for eliminating using sugar, hive replacement and just dealing with the 30% losses locally and nationally.
Since keeping track on 06' michiana beekeepers association has occurred 30% +/- 4% losses.

I figured on pulling a split, dropping the 3rd deep down adding 3-4 supers. Get honey from them, the split would be the replacement hive for the following year and the supered hive would end up not making it. All the older beekeepers in area said our honey flow didn't start till June. My original yard has 3 acres of black locust which starts around 5/20, so I was supering 2 weeks prior to that date. Problem triples started swarming 4/27. So this got me to rethink timing of supering. Takes 16 days to make a queen, so I needed to be supering before 4/11. Which I started doing in 2010 still using 4 supers. They would have them filled after the Black Locust/ tulip popular flow and still go into swarm mode. So I started increasing the number of supers and got the timing of the flows down. Extract supers after the flows and get back on ASAP before letting them get honeybound. 
Double left unsupered didn't start swarming till 5/25.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Tim, I've been meaning to ask you if you think your system might work horizontally. I've built several long hives this year. They each hold 32 deep frames, so the frame area is about the same as 3 deeps. They can be supered-- you could stack 3 rows of three 8 frame mediums on each hive, so 9 supers without needing a stepladder.

What do you think?


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> Tim, I've been meaning to ask you if you think your system might work horizontally. I've built several long hives this year. They each hold 32 deep frames, so the frame area is about the same as 3 deeps. They can be supered-- you could stack 3 rows of three 8 frame mediums on each hive, so 9 supers without needing a stepladder.
> 
> What do you think?


That's a great question.. I built some linear boxes back few years ago, which I was going to try. 48 3/4"* 19 7/8" which you could place 3 supers on. Well never got around to using them. One thing that detered me from using was what the bees was doing mid Feb when dropping down to bottom deep then brooding up from there. Once the brood is capped, very little of the cluster stays on the capped. They'll cluster on the open brood. So after seeing this I aborted the linear hive idea. 
But without trying, I can't say 100%. Just going by the dynamics.


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## Bdeaner (May 26, 2011)

Tim, when you say "using 4 supers" do you mean you put 4 honey supers (deeps?) on a three deep hive all at once in April?


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Bdeaner said:


> Tim, when you say "using 4 supers" do you mean you put 4 honey supers (deeps?) on a three deep hive all at once in April?


6 5/8" medium supers. Pulling 9 1/2" deeps of honey...ughhh..lol


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## Bdeaner (May 26, 2011)

Ok thanks. But you still put the 4 mediums on at once, instead of one at a time, waiting until the super is 70-80 percent full as I have often heard recommended.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Bdeaner said:


> Ok thanks. But you still put the 4 mediums on at once, instead of one at a time, waiting until the super is 70-80 percent full as I have often heard recommended.


I increased to 6-7. Checker boarding the supers,New,drawn,New drawn,New,drawn. New supers 10 frame , drawn supers 9 frame. 8 frame end up being to fat to run thru the decapper.

The new supers keeps the wax builders depleted, which is a major need to cast a swarm. The drawn entices the hoarding behaviors


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

The hives don't know your going to add more room for them. Once they get to a certain point of being crowded they'll find room else where. Once they're set in swarm mode, the added room is to late.


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## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Also by not getting supers on early enough they'll start backfilling the 3 rd deep, which will also set them to swarm mode.


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