# Commercial tbh hives



## greg zechman (Nov 2, 2010)

Does anyone use tbhs for commercial use...if so...what are the pros and cons of usage...thank you in advance greg


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## Daddy'sBees (Jul 1, 2010)

Probably not. Top bar hive combs would collapse whenever you try to go down the road to place them somewhere else for pollination. It is not likely they would make it out of the yard!!!


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

Les crowder is a commercial TBH guy.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The down side is that you have a fixed space and they require more frequent interventions. If you have to drive 60 miles to an outyard this is not practical. With a Langstroth you can just pile on a lot of supers and come back after the flow. With a top bar hive you'll have to harvest several times because you have limited space and they can't quickly put up stores when you steal the comb. A Langstroth with extracted frames, can quickly fill the drawn comb if you have to feed. A top bar hive will have to draw that comb if you harvested the comb and the fall flow failed. I think a top bar hive is more suited to your back yard where you can check on it easily.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#management


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Steven Ogborn said:


> Les crowder is a commercial TBH guy.


Running how many hives? Does he extract honey?


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## taydeko (Jan 3, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Running how many hives? Does he extract honey?


Les has around 100 hives apparently. He is a minimalist beekeeper. He doesn't treat and he normally doesn't feed his bees, and he lets them do what they do, pretty much. He doesn't extract honey, he uses crush and strain. I don't think he moves his hives much either. I think his primary commercial activities are teaching, inspecting, and selling honey and wax. His web site is http://www.fortheloveofbees.com.

There are other commercial beekeepers in the area who also use TBHs for some of their bees.

Ted


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

What do you mean by commercial? You can have a commercial operation and not move the hives at all or very little. Jim


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## taydeko (Jan 3, 2012)

Daddy'sBees said:


> Probably not. Top bar hive combs would collapse whenever you try to go down the road to place them somewhere else for pollination. It is not likely they would make it out of the yard!!!


Not necessarily. I know top bar beekeepers who transport their hives upside down to prevent that. The design of the hive also makes a difference. A shallower hive with more angled sides will have fewer collapse problems too. The top bar beekeepers around here don't move their hives when it is really hot.



> What do you mean by commercial? You can have a commercial operation and not move the hives at all or very little.


I agree with Jim. If commercial means moving hives all over the country for pollination, then I would go with Langstroth. The commercial top bar beekeepers in our area sell honey, wax, candles, etc. Some of them move their hives south for the winter, but only when the weather is cool.

Ted


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

While I'm not "commercial," I've moved dozens of top bar hives all around Portland, Oregon and I've rarely had combs collapse. I just drive carefully and don't move them when it's 90 degrees out.

Matt


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Upside down? I thought that would be even worse, with the weight of bees on the comb + driving if the combs started to lean the whole lot could go like dominoes.


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

I started out with top bar hives. First time I saw a langstroth hive being manipulated, I saw the light...

I started out with 5 top bar hives my first year. 3 survived the first winter. I went into last winter with 4 top bar hives and I am down to 1 top bar hive with bees still active and a queen. I went into this winter with 3 langstroth hives, I still have 3 that are active and have brood.

Top bar hives are not easily fed during the winter. If the cluster has eaten all the stores on the combs they are on, and the temperature does not increase enough for them to move, they will starve. I just had one do this and it has left only a handful of bees alive and I did not see a queen.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/2012 Early Inspections/IMG_0926-1.jpg

That is what the hive looked like for about 3 combs on either side of this one (the link above shows the image). I emptied out the bottom as it contained tons of dead bees when I checked them on Feb. 18, 2012. On March, 10, 2012 the photos shows what I found. There is still about 12lbs of honey in the hive. I moved it over for that small cluster to feed on and they really went to town on it. However, no queen. I found uncovered sealed brood (dead). My last inspection showed that the hive had starved and the vast majority of the bees were dead on the bottom. This was from removing the bottom board an looking in. Too cold to try and move combs of honey about. I did try back in Feb., but those combs just broke off.

Each of the hives I have lost cost $85 for the packaged bees. No worth it to have them die every year. I would say a top bar or two in the backyard is ok. But not something you want 25 miles or so away which mine are.

I went to my first beekeeper picnic which always has a bee yard visit before we eat. Honey is harvested, queens are replaced as need, and hives are inspected, etc. Once I saw the ease of how frames can be moved from hive to hive, well... no more top bar hives for me. At least nothing that I intentionally put bees into again.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Les was at the organic conference in Arizona last week...and will be speaking at our Massachusetts.conference in July. He used.to do almond.pollination until his hives.were sprayed with roundup (and exposed to who knows.what else) . He has a book that looks quite.good with Chelsea Green....probably out sometime this.summer....specifically about tbh management.
Deknow


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

from what little I know about tbh the words commercial and top bar hives do not belong in the same sentence.


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## sammyjay (May 2, 2011)

Daddy'sBees said:


> Top bar hive combs would collapse whenever you try to go down the road to place them somewhere else for pollination.


Not all commercial beekeeping is about pollination. If you had enough permanent honey yards you could probably keep TBHs commercially.


Nathan


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

"...from what little I know about tbh..."

That's the problem with too many of the posts in the top bar forum -- the ongoing negative or disparaging comments from people who have little or no experience to back up their point of view. I sincerely appreciate anyone who contributes to the TBH forum with something more than knee-jerk reaction and hearsay. Thanks to Taydeko, Cacklewack, Michael Bush, Findlaybee, and others who have contributed meaningfully to this thread -- it has been a pleasure to read your points of view.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

DeeAnna said:


> " people who have little or no experience to back up their point of view.


Realistically, nobody in the thread has experience with running TBH's commercially.

To look at it from a commercial point of view, I guess one way to attempt an answer to the origional question would be to figure out how much honey people harvested from their TBH, then figure out how many TBH's you would need to get enough to make a living. Commercial beeks get around $2 per pound, or something less than that. Someone with relatively small quantities could sell it in some boutiqe situation like a market or similar. Most commercial beeks sell their honey at bulk prices because they have large quantities and cannot take the time to sit around in markets, their time is better spent on actual beekeeping.
Then, looking at it like that could TBH's be made into a realistic option commercially. Anyone?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

dee anna----the original post was tbh for commercial use. to me commercial means to make money. I admitted right up front that I had no tbh experence. now we are semi retired and operate about 200 hives grossing about 35k. this would be a minimum income for someone if everything was paid for. with your commercial experence how many tbh would you have to operate to equal this? I stand by my original statement that tbh and commercial do not belong in the same sentence.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

taydeko said:


> Les has around 100 hives apparently.
> 
> Ted


The new definition of commercial? I don't think so. One has to do more than be commercially active to be considered commercial by 99% of beekeepers.


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## taydeko (Jan 3, 2012)

I think it would certainly be helpful to understand exactly what the definition of commercial beekeeping is in the context of this post. I also think that commercial beekeeping in the traditional sense requires Langstroth hives. TBHs place too many restrictions on what can be done profitably for a large operation. Regardless of the hive technology, I think commercial beekeeping is a high overhead, labor intensive venture where the owner is probably not going to get rich quick. But I think it is also true that many professional beekeepers make at least part of their income using Top Bar Hives. I am sure there are as many reasons for this as there are beekeeping opinions.

Ted


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It may well be that w/in the TBH Community of Beekeepers 100 TBHs is considered Commercial TBH Beekeeping. W/in the Beekeeping Community overall 100 colonies isn't considered Commercial Beekeeping, keeping bees Commercially.

Ted, maybe you know some Commercial Beekeepers, in the sense that you understand whatr commercial means, but not what I understand it to mean, who have some TBHs. I know no Commercial Beekeepers, in the tradition understanding of the term, who own TBHs.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just think that the traditional understanding of what certain beekeeping terms mean is getting muddied by TBH beekeepers who either don't know what the terms imply or ignore what they imply for some reason.

If 100 TBHs is considered Commercial w/in the TBH Community I can live w/ that.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't think it's about how many hives are owned. Being commercial (at anything), generally means making a living from it. 

However I know someone with 30 hives who stoutly claims to be commercial. Don't quite know how that works because I don't even think she turns a profit. But once I refered to her as a hobbyist, BAD mistake! 

Read something on the net once about a beek with only 200 hives, who is in an area where some incredibly expensive honey is harvested. The honey is so expensive that he has enough money to employ 5 girls to help in his operation. So although he's only got a small number of hives, he's running a successful business, he's commercial.

What I've noticed with both TBH's and Warres, is there are some people keeping them and making a living. But not just from honey production, they also charge to run courses, and sell equipment, and possible have some other related activity that pulls some dollars. So if they can figure a way to make a living, then they are commercial. But the issue would be could they live on their bees alone, doesn't look like it. So "commercial" can be a bit hard to define.


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## popalot (Dec 21, 2010)

I've had the pleasure to meet Les Crowder at the Santa Fe Farmers Market. In fact he was selling honey, and lots of it to me and others. I believe he told me he has closer to 200 hives. Why is it that beeks are so intimidated by TB beekeeping? It is silly. The simple fact is that there are many ways that one can produce honey. 

Diversity gives us a strength of experience, style, methods, and performance. I just built three more TBH's from scratch for under $50. I've run both Lang and TBH's. Both work.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I doubt anybody is intimidated by top bar beekeeping LOL. 

Re Les, in fact he would be a perfect example of what I just said in my previous post. You can betcha he couldn't live on the honey revenue from his 200 TBH's. But combine that with teaching fees, and whatever else he does, he does make a living. So, I guess you could call him commercial. 

Are all his 200 hives TBH's? On his web site it says he has converted his home yard to TBH's.


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## taydeko (Jan 3, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> It may well be that w/in the TBH Community of Beekeepers 100 TBHs is considered Commercial TBH Beekeeping. W/in the Beekeeping Community overall 100 colonies isn't considered Commercial Beekeeping, keeping bees Commercially.


I have no idea. I know Les makes money keeping bees. I don't consider myself an expert at what other people think. In my previous post, I asked what the definition of commercial beekeeping is, because I don't know. For myself, I figure if someone is a beekeeper and depends on beekeeping for some or all of his income from sales of various products, it can be considered a commercial venture. To me, a street cart is just as much a commercial venture as a Walmart.



sqkcrk said:


> Ted, maybe you know some Commercial Beekeepers, in the sense that you understand whatr commercial means, but not what I understand it to mean, who have some TBHs. I know no Commercial Beekeepers, in the tradition understanding of the term, who own TBHs.


I have no idea what a commercial beekeeper is in the traditional terms you refer to except someone who has perhaps thousands of hives used either for large scale production of honey and moving them all around the country to provide pollination. I have never discussed it or heard it discussed, hence my question in my previous post. I have no idea how much of Les Crowder's income comes from beekeeping and associated revenues such as teaching and inspecting, but I would say that selling large quantities of honey, wax, along with teaching and inspecting could give one an adequate income from beekeeping. I know that Les lives on a farm. Perhaps he derives other income from farming, I don't know.



sqkcrk said:


> I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just think that the traditional understanding of what certain beekeeping terms mean is getting muddied by TBH beekeepers who either don't know what the terms imply or ignore what they imply for some reason.


I think that is a little harsh. I asked for a definition so I would understand what we are talking about. I also don't go around asking other beekeepers how much money they make or what percentage of their income is from beekeeping. There are other beekeepers in my area who make at least part of their living from beekeeping who have both TBH and Langstroth hives. I don't know how many hives they have, but they make significant income from selling honey, pollen, wax and candles. That seems commercial to me.



sqkcrk said:


> If 100 TBHs is considered Commercial w/in the TBH Community I can live w/ that.


I can't speak for the TBH community, so please don't ascribe anything I have said to the TBH community. I wonder if you read what I said? Here it is again...



> I also think that commercial beekeeping in the traditional sense requires Langstroth hives. TBHs place too many restrictions on what can be done profitably for a large operation.


I don't see how that can be construed to mean anything except that I wouldn't want to rely completely on TBHs if I was going to be a commercial beekeeper, which I am not. I don't even consider myself a beekeeper at this point. But I am allowed to express an opinion, I hope. 

Ted


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Bees have been kept in langs so long they have become the standard. You can ask any question and get at least a dozen questions from these standard beekeepers. Yet it is the TBH keepers that are muddying things up?

To me a commercial beekeeper is anyone that calls themselves commercial.


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## conifer (May 5, 2011)

Well, if you want the opinion of one of the lecturers at a beekeeping course I recently attended, then the answer to the question "What is a Commercial Beekeeper?" has a very succinct & clear definition (and I quote):

_"-Someone who makes enough money to support a family without a second job
-Starts at 700 colonies
-Average closer to 2000 colonies"_

In the same presentation, "_semi-commercia_l" was defined as "_starts at 50 colonies_", and I can only infer that the "_semi-commercia_l" must extend up to 699 colonies since 700 is the start of the "commercial" category (and "hobby" must be up to 49 colonies?). 

So you see, this issue is very cut and dry - a person is a hobbyist until they get their 50th colony, and then they are "semi-commercial" up to 699, and when they add one more hive to reach 700 they are magically transported into the realm of "commercial". I hope this definition helps to clear up any debate about this matter.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

conifer said:


> _"-Someone who makes enough money to support a family without a second job
> -Starts at 700 colonies
> -Average closer to 2000 colonies"_
> 
> .


Although I would have to generally agree with this definition, I can certainly come up with some exceptions. Particularly among the guys who bottle and retail/wholesale there own honey.


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## conifer (May 5, 2011)

Agreed Herb. The definition is as good as any, as a place to start the discussion. The sarcasm in my post was directed more towards the way the information was presented to the class as "the" definition, as if it was a generally accepted fact.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It wasn't sarcasm Conifer, I thought it was pretty funny! 

You have also drawn attention to the problem with arguing over definitions. While a starting number of 700 hives is reasonable to be called commercial, and in practise, that's the way it often works, there will be the odd person who, one way or another, makes a living with less hives than that. So if they are making a living, they must be commercial?

Back in the 1970's, there was a guy working in my area, making a living from 80 hives. He lived in a little shack on a few acres, his vehicle was a vw beetle with a trailer, and he collected pollen, made candles, charged for pollination, sold everything in boutique situations at premium prices, and eked out a living. Was he commercial? Just as commercial as any other enterprise that provides the owner a living.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ted,
You and I perhaps seem to have gotten into an argument, which was not my intent what so ever. Reading emotion in text messages is hard.

The question ofg what is a Commercial Beekeeper has been discussed in other Threads recently. Search my help.

Small Scale Beekeeper, aka Hobbyist, one who has one to many hives and doesn't depend on them for a living.
Sideline Beekeeper, one who owns and runs hundreds of hives for honey and other hive products, may do some pollination and other bee related income generating activeties. But, bees and beekeeping are not that persons primary source of income.
Commercial Beekeeper, one who owns hundreds of hives, usually 500 on up, whose primary or total income source is beekeeping.

I hope that helps.

All the above are beekeepers. Which in most conversations may be the most important distinction. But, don't expect someone w/ 200 hives to be accepted by beekeepers w/ many more hundreds and thousands as equally commercial. I have known many a noncommercial beekeeper w/ much more experience and knowledge than I. Just on a smaller, perhaps more intimate, scale. That's why I prefer "Small Scale Beekeeper" over "Hobbnyist".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Cacklewack said:


> While I'm not "commercial," I've moved dozens of top bar hives all around Portland, Oregon and I've rarely had combs collapse. I just drive carefully and don't move them when it's 90 degrees out.
> 
> Matt


Matt,
Do you orient your hives so the combs are parellel w/ the direction of travel? In otherwords, so the combc face the sides of the truck? So, when you take off or come to a stop they combs don't have any force on them? Or, maybe w/ well used comb it doesn't matter so much.


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## taydeko (Jan 3, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Ted,
> You and I perhaps seem to have gotten into an argument, which was not my intent what so ever. Reading emotion in text messages is hard.


Mark,

Not a problem. I have learned a lot from your posts. I am just looking forward to beeing a beekeeper. In my local group they say you have to overwinter bees successfully to be considered a beekeeper rather than a bee haver. So maybe next year at this time I will be a beekeeper by that definition. Unless I catch a swarm soon it is about a month before I even become a bee haver. I have had bees before, but not for long, for various reasons. I have hives, but they are currently all empty. I seriously doubt if I will ever reach the ranks of "commercial beekeeper" by any definition. If I ever do make any profits from this venture, I plan to donate the profits anyway.

Ted


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## Stuart (Nov 11, 2010)

Fwiw, Dr. Wyatt Mangum has run ~200 tbh commercially for ~20 years or so. He writes a lot in ABJ. I suspect its like anything else, learn through mistakes. His book is due out soon and maybe there will be some of his lessons learned offered there.

Stuart


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## Stuart (Nov 11, 2010)

Oops, I just read the nitpicking above. I didn't mean to start that up again.

Stuart


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nit picking is in the eye of the beholder.  lol

Ted,
Everyone should define themselves. Just don't be surprised if you aren't accepted w/ open arms into the tribe you wish to be part of. It's human nature to define and associate w/ those we feel similar to and identify with. Thank you for enjoying my Posts.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well if that's correct about Dr. Wyatt Mangum then it is possible to go commercial TBH.

So how does he derive his income? Just from honey?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Oh, I just googled him, he makes his living as a university lecturer in mathematics.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

He is a College Professor who uses his TBHs for research purposes. He is good at what he does and I am not being critical in stating fact. I doubt that he would call himself a commercial beekeeper. If that is why Dr. Mangum was brought up, as an example of a Commercial TBH Beekeeper.

We all do what we have to do to do what we love to do. Very few are purely one thing only in many respects.


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## Stuart (Nov 11, 2010)

Oldtimer, 

More specifically, he started pollinating for money with langs before he was a ten (driving hives around his bicycle) and kept 125 hives as teenager. He's worked in bee academia, in N.C. I think, and now teaches math in VA. No, I'm pretty sure doesn’t derive the majority of his income from bees but he still drives them around pollinating for money (requreing significant investments, insurance, headaches and lots of work ;-).

Stuart 

Now I'm off to make a couple of nucs for new beekeepers in the area (for money)... I hope your colonies are growing like my few are!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, thanks Stuart, I read up on him on google, interesting guy. He enjoys his bees plus writing about them, and his lecturing job gives him the time, and the money, to pursue his hobby and do it well. He is one of those lucky guys whose hobby (probably) pays for itself.

He also has a collecting of beekeeping memorobilia, including various hive designs going back nearly 200 years, and 100 different smokers. Would definately be an interesting guy to have a coffee with!


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

sqkcrk,

I don't orient them any particular way. I think the key is just avoiding transport when it's hot out or the hives are full of brand new comb. 

Matt


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Well, I know it's a bit of a smart-alec comment, but the Greeks were quite commercially successful with their TBH's 2000 years ago! 

Realistically, you can put 19"x1.375"x0.75" top bars in a Lang. Super and have a stackable TBH (and if you used medium or shallow supers it'd travel well).
Also, you can use the same bars, and but them in a TTBH a la Michael Bush that has the dimensions of a med. super, just is a horizontal hive, and you could interchange Lang. frames in+out.
For a final option, I'm building TBH hives with 19"x1.375"x0.75" top bars that I engineered to be 100% compatible with the bar length+width+spacing+bee space of the Dadant frames templated here on beesource; then putting them into 11.5" deep 30degree sloped-sided hives, and even making custom engineered, langstroth-style, extractable frames to fit my boxes.

I have just about 0 intentions of becoming a "commercial beekeeper" in the sense of deriving my primary income from beekeeping, as I already have various other sources of income; BUT I *DO* intend to try and make some "side money" off my bees. The reasons I chose my TBH-ish hive design are:
1. I injured my back severely in the military, so lifting 90lb supers filled with honey all day is 175% OUT OF THE QUESTION for me;
2. Here in coastal TX the weather can get REALLY HOT, and the sun beats everything to heat it up even worse; my horizontal hives with sloped sides avoid having the sun heat the sides (which is a problem I see being a HUGE factor for "typical" Langstroth hives around here), so I only have to heat-shield the lid;
3. I'll be utilizing the wax almost as much as the honey, so a top-bar only "frame" makes it easier for me to remove wax;
4. I enjoy doing cut-outs and want the ability to exchange bees with Langstroth users, so my top-bars are 100% compatible with "standard" equipment, and I have frames to make "splicing in" brood from a cut-out FAR easier.

I guess the point of all of that is this: Whether you're using a Top-Bar, a Langstroth Frame, or something entirely custom engineered, what's really most important is that the combs are individually movable (by law), and that the hives are made to fit your specific situation...top-bar or frame, either one can do the same thing...in the right conditions


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## conifer (May 5, 2011)

Here is a link on this topic that someone else posted on a different forum:

"THE TOP-BAR HIVE IN COMMERCIAL BEEKEEPING AND RESEARCH" by Dr. Wyatt A. Mangum

http://www.apimondia.com/congresses/2001/Papers/046.pdf


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