# beltsville lab results: afb positive



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i guess it's not a matter of "if" but rather "when" anyone keeping bees will lose a hive.

looks like my time has come, got the results in from beltsville today, i'll be burning one tomorrow.

this hive is one of the four i started with in june 2010. these hives were already being kept on my property, and i purchased them when their owner passed away.

the previous owner had been keeping bees for honey production for many years, and my guess is that he had been using preventative treatments for afb.

this is a real page-turner for my operation. i built up to ten hives last year after doing some splits and buying some nucs. the problem is that i've been moving frames and boxes around like crazy. so i have no idea what's contaminated and what's not.

so my apiary has become a "hospital yard", quarantined, and all my plans for making new splits and nucs are out the window.

i've decided against preventative treatments, and will continue to burn any additional hives that succumb to afb.

here is what i think i need to do going forward. i'm hoping some of you seasoned veterans will chime in for or against these ideas, and add any others that would be helpful. i'm all ears.

1. i plan to get rid of all of the "old" frames in the remaining hives that they ended up in. it's very easy to identify these from the much newer ones i have added.

2. i plan to do careful inspections regularly, pull any frames that i find with sick brood if it is only in a few cells, or sacrifice the whole hive if there are more than a few cells of sick brood.

3. i plan to keep all of the equipment for each hive with that hive, i.e. no swapping frames or boxes between hives.

4. i plan to carefully clean the tools etc. between inspections.

5. i plan to keep the yard isolated, no new bees in or out.

luckily, i have access to another location that i can start a new yard in. in the mean time, looks like another lesson i had to learn the hard way.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

You need to do what ever you can to prevent robbing from these isolated hives... robbing of stores is how it is spread. 

You may consider shaking out the remaining colonies into new equipment and burn all their old stuff as well.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

As a beekeeper that treats, I would recommend a preventative type program. BUT since you are dead set against such then the following I will recommend. Place a colored thumbtack on one of the outside frames of each of your hives. Every time you go into your bees you pull one comb out and move the thumbtacked frame over one spot. Replace the spot where the thumbtacked frame was with a new frame and foundation. Do this everytime you work your bees until all the original old combs have been replaced. To do this correctly you will have to go in your bees a little more often. Also with light infections, knock the bottom board off and place the colony directly on the blocks. One problem with AFB is that when the bees clean the scale out, it falls to the bottom board where the colony is constantly reinfested. With out the bottom board, it falls to the ground and the colony will recover.Screened bottoms are still a partial bottom board and still will catch scale. All the methods stated above, while not a 100% fool proof, are a lot of work. The simpiliest and surest method to rid yourself of AFB---IS A MATCH. TED


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

I think it there is a substantial possibility of losing ALL of the hives if you do not hammer them hard with some oxytetracycline aka TM-343. I seriously doubt this infection will clear itself. Your bees may continue to look for pollen and nectar upto 2 miles or more away and possibly rob other hives thus exponentially multiplying the risk of spreading this dreaded disease to bee colonies in every direction around you. The cost of oxytetracycline is minimal compared to the cost of losing every hive your have, pluse any wooden equipment used around, on, or in these hives. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Here what I would do.

Burn the infected hive and ALL old boxes from somebody else. Torch all your new boxes and all bottom boards very careful, don’t miss a spot. Heat it till you see the propolis boiling.
When it is warm enough and the bees flying I would catch each queen and put her in a cage and in a clean box with only new foundations and new frames. Place the new box on the same spot from the old hive and brush all bees in front of the new hive (a few meters away). Not in the hive, otherwise you brush the AFB spores also in the new box.
The bees will go to there queen, start feeding with syrup for at least a week or two. It’s like starting with packages bees. On the second day release the queens.

I would burn all the combs including the brood. 

If you “hammer them hard with some oxytetracycline aka TM-343” will NOT solve the problem. This will NOT kill the AFB spores, it will cover the problem and the next outbreak is 100% sure.
My two cents


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

I had AFB some time back.
The suggestions above all sound good - except it will be up to you to decide if you want to use chemicals. It seems you want to avoid them. In may case ( in Australia) we have to burn - and I did. The lot of 5 hives! Many near new boxes and frames. Not easy. I'm up to about 20 hives again and pratice hygiene like you describe. A bit over the top some feel - frames back to the hives they came from after extracting honey, cleaning hive tools between hives, washing brushes between hives, no exchange of boxes, washing bee clothing regularly..
I also cleaned all old boxes which MAY have been in contact with infected hives in the past and have re-painted these. I get rid of old frames more often too. And NEVER leave anything with honey on it to clean-up by the bees.
Good luck - there is beekeeping after AFB!


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## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

In hate to hear any one getting AFB but until they stop selling antibiotics to beekeepers to treat hives it will never go away. antibiotic treatments is only a cover up method the only cure is to burn. I am not a believer in taken a sick hive and shake out bees why take a chance to spread it more by covering it up.
just my opinion
Don


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Some countries shake the bees into new equipment, & burn all the old frames, brood & all.
Sounds like they have good luck doing it that way. 
Mixing new frames with possibly contaminated old frames, will just get you're new frames contaminated.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks to all who replied!

bluegrass, the afb only showed up in one of my ten hives, and i moved it out that day to a location away from any known bee operations. thankfully, there were no signs of robbing while i waited for the lab results, and i sealed it up tight after hearing back from beltsville. i considered transferring the remaining three frames of bee into new equipment, but i could not get a queen, and it's still too cold for syrup feeding. thanks for the suggestions.

ted, i am not actually philosophically opposed to using treatments. what i did not want have to do was to use antibiotics on an ongoing basis on hives that had lots of foul brood spores in them. fortunately, i became aquainted today with a long time beekeeper who, like you, has experience with this. after a good discussion about my options, i have decided to treat the remaining nine hives with tylosin. i will agressively cull out the old frames as you suggested, as well as scorch all of my boxes. i will probably follow with a terramycin treatment in the fall, and then see what happens after that. what do you think about this plan?

live oak, only three of my remaining nine hives are the old ones that i now know had a history of afb. the other six are all new hives started with healthy nucs in new equipment. but, i may have contaminated them unknowingly, so your point is well taken. until today, i did not think it was possible to eradicate the problem, and i was willing to let the hives die and burn them rather than have to keep treating forever as a cover up.

axtmann, since it's not warm enough yet to shake them out into new equipment, so i am going this other route for now. i am hoping no more shows up, but if it does later in the season, i will try your method.

max2, it's heartbreaking alright, but i can see how your government's approach would work in the long run. what i plan to do would not be approved by some on this forum, and i do concede that there is some risk involved. but on balance it's what i've decided to try.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

fat/beeman and kq6ar, sorry, looks like we cross-posted.

can afb ever go completely away as long as there are feral hives that succumb to it and get robbed out?

and, good point about mixing the frames, but for now i don't have another option.

many thanks.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"and i was willing to let the hives die and burn them rather than have to keep treating forever as a cover up."
As I understand it it is best to kill the bees as soon as AFB is discovered. To " let them die" may well mean that they get robbed as they weaken and thus the problem would yet again spread.
Having to kill some hives was possibly the worst action I ever had to take against my bees - for the good of other hives.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

my understanding too max, poor choice of words on my part.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

An ounce of prevention-tablespoon full of powdered sugar and antibiotics-is worth a pound of cure---A match, and a whole lot of headaches removing the bees to destroy them and their equipment. TED


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Not often I dissagree with Ted. But, we're buddies, so I think he'll let it go! 

In my opinion, the pity with using drugs, is that if the rest of the hives are infected, it would never have got to this point in the first place, had burning, rather than drugs been used by the previous owner.

Using drugs and following a policy of gradual comb removal and replacement will, i guess, slowly remove infected material. But me, I wouldn't use drugs, I'd let any possible disease reveal itself then burn. Hives would be quaranteened, ie, no gear exchanged, for 2 years. After that, consider them clean, but inspect regularly (twice per season) for a while.

However I've got to say there are some beekeepers I respect who use drugs. But it seems to me, if you use drugs you are just continuing what the last guy did.

But anyway seems you have made a plan, main thing is to stick to it and do it well, rather than worry about every differing opinion, so all the best with it hope things work out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A recent study about Terramycin causing issues:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0026796


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> can afb ever go completely away as long as there are feral hives that succumb to it and get robbed out?


Diseases like AFB exist and will never completely go away, no matter what. Feral hives generally are not an AFB sink/source, imo. If we kept bees like Mother Nature, one per who knows how many acres in selfcontained units, AFB would be a less noticed problem. Not that this is at all practical, as beekeepers.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

we are taught to treat in the spring...only because our brood rearing season is short and to prevent any infections. However the idea of fall treating is being tossed out the window for two reasons. One, if the hive is infected it will show up by or before fall...then burn. Or if the hive is infected, with our winters it will show up before treating in the spring....then burn. We are suggested to keep toothpicks close at hand when inspecting colonies
On a side note, in Manitoba, the inspectors try to get to every beekeeper on the list...majority of them, every two years. This includes searching for AFB and testing. Beekeepers with problems of AFB is where they spend most of the inspection $. The will be inspected every year or even every 6 months depending on the severity. What they are looking for in these type of operations is making sure it is being cleaned up, infection numbers reduced. Beekeepers who have shown no signs of AFB are likely on a two year rotation of inspection.
Majority of the older beekeepers here will burn any infected colony. The inspectors will recommend burning and will burn heavily infected colonies. The newer beekeepers are not taking such a stance. One fellow i was interested in buying from a while back suggested the shake out method as a way of cleaning up colonies. Not my perspective so i stayed clear.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

that's interesting honeyshack. do you apply spring treatments? if so, what do you use and how do you apply it?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Oldtimer, I am a beekeeper that uses TM as a preventative measure. If I encounter AFB, it goes to the burning barrell, bees, boxes, comb and all. The reason being, if the disease rears it's ugly head when my bees are on drug preventive maintenance, then it must be one tough strain. Which needs to be destroyed to prevent infecting the rest of my operation and my neighbors bees as well. I have too much at stake-a lifetimes worth of work, to gamble with trying to "hospitalize" a sick hive. It is cheaper to just get rid of it and split another colony off a healthy hive. Besides, the bees that show up with AFB are weak genetically as far as that disease is concerned. We all want productive colonies that are genetically strong. TED


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Makes sense.


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## harvey's honey florida (Apr 8, 2011)

Why does anyone worry about AFB or chalkbrood when hygienic queens are available? - You can kill the queen in an AFB hive and stack it on a hygienic hive and those bees will clean it up - No antibiotics of any kind - Bob Harvey


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Would you do that with all afb strains? I wouldn't. Two of them are suceptible to hygienic bees, another two not so much.


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## harvey's honey florida (Apr 8, 2011)

Absolutly I would and did more than 10 years ago when we found TM resistant foul with Minn Hygienics - even bought infected bees and stacked - no antibiotic and no AFB since - nor chalk brood - (MH will break down with EFB sometimes in Blueberries and Cranberries) - Its simple - the bees remove the dead brood before the spores form to make it contagious. - I now use Glenn's stock


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmm... Well that's interesting, I've never heard of someone actually setting out to do that before. Oh well, if it worked for you.

Thing is though, there are (from memory), 4 main afb strains plus a few minor variants. The 4 main strains can be divided into two groups, one causes larval death immediately after capping, and one some days later. One is more easily removed in one piece than the other by hygienic bees. One, in a non hygienic hive, is slower than the other, taking more than two years to kill a typical hive.

If what you suggest works, well fair enough, But it would need to be verified it works on all strains before recommending this as a general treatment for all.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I would not take the chance! TED


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>You can kill the queen in an AFB hive and stack it on a hygienic hive and those bees will clean it up
>I've never heard of someone actually setting out to do that before. 

"The great beekeeper Dr. John Eckert relied solely on having strong colonies for the control of AFB. If he came upon a colony with AFB, he simply combined that colony with the strongest colonies in his apiary and let the bees clean up the disease" --The How-To-Do-It book of Beekeeping, Richard Taylor


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is this your recommendation Michael? Or, perhaps you are just addressing the statement?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

My experience is it's the strong colonies that get afb.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is this your recommendation Michael?

No.

> Or, perhaps you are just addressing the statement? 

Yes. Just showing that the concept is not unheard of.


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## fieldbee (Feb 7, 2012)

Are you saying this method will work will normal bees just kill the queen and stack on a strong hygenic hive??
We have been burning.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Most places I have lived and most places I know of, burning is legally required.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Just burn and get rid of the stuff>>>


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## fieldbee (Feb 7, 2012)

Burning is what is legally required here. We are very good at burning, have done lots, son bought his hives from someone we found after had an afb prob. Then we needed exta hives in 2010 and so did he from bad case of varroaitis and have had high numbers of afb show up in what originally seemed clean hives all bought in in 2010. All the burning is starting to hurt especially when some are now on our expensive open bases not to mention new top feeders and lids. Hence my ears have been pricking up over a few threads about afb here, namely burning only a frame if it has one or two cells or what was mentioned earlier on this thread. However all we have done to date is burn everything, which is required by law and what all my brother beekeepers with many more years of expereience than us have done and taught us. However I dont think any of them have had to burn as much as us. Oh and I forgot to mention that a neighbouring beekeeper with more years of experience than us had a very bad problem and was doing nothing, some of our hives robbed his, we were told of the neighbours problem after the powers that be were involved.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fieldbee, are you by any chance from around Whangarei? There has been major afb issues there, as it sounds like you've had. 

If things for you are as bad as it sounds, quaranteen everything. That means, every box on every hive is numbered. All boxes on hive one are marked with a one. So that boxes taken off, only go back on the same hive. No gear is exchanged between hives. Yards with no afb do not need to be quaranteened, other than from yards that do have afb. While this is happening, any hive that does show afb, burn, in it's entirety. 

You can lick this disease in two years. It is not acting fast enough that costs money.

Also, get the disease identified properly. It is not unknown for hives with sac brood to have been burned due to faulty diagnosis.

You may find a particular site that keeps getting afb, because there is some residual infection hidden in the bush somewhere. In those cases you may have to abandon the site.

Here is a supportive NZ web community http://www.nzbees.net/forum/


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## harvey's honey florida (Apr 8, 2011)

You could save a lot of money by changing to hygienic queens - Once established you won't see foul no matter what your neighbor does - Bob


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## fieldbee (Feb 7, 2012)

Thanks for your reply Oldtimer, no we are further down country, in an area which has had a lot of losses due to varroa, we have noticed that other beeks who appear to be respected are getting higher afb findings after a year of varroaitis. we are burning everything and have sadly decided to give up a good!!!!manuka site where records show we always get afb, and as I said earlier we have a neighbouring beek who had very serious issues and left it for a year, this beek has several sites near us which have been given up or monitored. So we have had a character intro to beek, are confident we will bet on top of it. We are of the opinion that varroaitus seriously weakens the hives and higher afb incidents follow, this is only anedotal listening to what other more experienced beek say is happening to them.
Have had brothers with many years experience say we are diagnosing correct although one does make coments like you ie hives burned because of faulty diagnosis. can you elaborate more?
Will check out the website you suggested, havent come across it before. Thanks


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## fieldbee (Feb 7, 2012)

Bob - are you talking about everyday queens choosen for their hygenic traits or are you referring to some other special queens


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## harvey's honey florida (Apr 8, 2011)

The first hygienics available here were Minnesota Hygienics - We bought breeders from Glenn and from Marla (the developer) and started raising our own queens for or 4000 hive operation - We had a resistant foul that was driving us crazy - Within months we could no longer find new cases and chalk brood also disapeared - no TM - No Tylan - We even stacked foul from another beekeeper on ours and were cleaned up (only hives worth saving - weak, dead, and scaled up frames were burned0 - we don't even have to look for foul brood any more - Glenn no longer sells MH so we are using his Cordovan, Italian and Golden VSH - Now moving more to the VSH - they have come a long way with those bees - they are mite resistant also - Bob


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Actually Walter Rothenbuhler did the research and developed hygienic bees back in the '50s. And that was work based on work done by O.W. Park back in the '30s when he first developed that strain. Hygienic bees have been available since the '30s, but no one took an interest once Terramycin came out. Marla Spivak picked up where they left off.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

But Michael, wasn't there a trade off w/ Rothenbuelers AFB Resistant Bees? Good resistance thru hygenic behavior, but poor honey production. Therefore lack of interest, especially since TM (the antibiotic super drug of its' day) was available.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm not aware of a drop in honey production but there was (and is) an obsession with breeding for solid brood patterns which are indicative, in my opinion, of a lack of hygienic behavior as well as a lack of inbreeding. The first being a positive thing and the latter a negative thing...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, give me a minute and I'll look thru my 1953 Yearbook of Agriculture and I'll look up what Dr. Walter reported.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well shoot, I guess I don't have it. I have the 1952 Edition w/ an article by Mackensen and Roberts on Breeding Bees. I'll have to see if I can find 1953 when I see my Sister this weekend.


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## fieldbee (Feb 7, 2012)

Thank you for your comments Bob, Have raised most of our queens the last 2 years but I need to learn about genetics. Your comments are noted I understand that a friend here is looking at breeding Hygienics


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## fieldbee (Feb 7, 2012)

Thanks for the website Oldtimer, I hadnt discovered it. Helpful and informative


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> I'm not aware of a drop in honey production but there was (and is) an obsession with breeding for solid brood patterns which are indicative, in my opinion, of a lack of hygienic behavior as well as a lack of inbreeding. The first being a positive thing and the latter a negative thing...


In Randy Olivers' talk, featured on another Thread here on Beesource, he refers to AFB resistant bee which Rothenbueler, he and others have developed over the years and he also refers to the trade off of selecting for one quality. It is that loss in production to which he refers.

You seem to be saying that "a lack of hygienic behavior" is "a positive thing" and "a lack of inbreeding" is "a negative thing". I'm confused, because I would think that solid brood patterns would be what we would want, as long as they are healthy and indicate a strong laying queen, and that "a lack of hygienic behavior" would be bad and "a lack of inbreeding" would be good. Or maybe I'm miss reading what you wrote?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm saying hyg8ienic behavior is a positive thing and inbreeding a negative thing. But both have the same symptoms.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Those symptoms being what?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Those symptoms being what? 

Gaps in the brood pattern.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Michael, to develop those AFB resistant strains, a lot of inbreeding was used back and forth between the lines to develop AFB hygienic bees by Rothenbueler. The same is true today with today's hygienic bees in the industry. You backcross sometimes for certain desirable traits. But honey production has dropped and the bees can go "nuts" and remove all the brood in a colony of todays VSH stock-over response. And with Rothenbuelers bees, well they kind of got mean as Hades. So temperment was the trade off there...


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