# Langstroth as a warre ? yes? no? Thoughts? Suggestions



## Grant

Yes, this can be done, but it won't be an honest-to-Pete Warre hive. Just take your five-frame Langstroth nuc and put it into a Lanstroth box. Add the complimentary strips to adapt the Warre principles, then with every subsequent box, lay in or nail your strips in place of the real frames.

You can convert a super to your quilted top.

While it won't be the same, exact dimensions, it will be the same concepts.

Alternatively, grow your Langstroth nuc into a strong single, then shake all the bees into your conventional Warre hive. To make this idea work even better, set up your Lang where you want your Warre to be. That way all the field bees will become familiar with the location. You can shake your own "package."

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## sqkcrk

No,no,no,no,NO!!

But, if you really want to, don't let me stop you.


----------



## BeehiveProject

Thanks for the info...


----------



## BeehiveProject

LOL.. care to expand on the No No NO thought? I am all ears...


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

Some people manage the Lang closer to the Warre approach; using a quilt box and supering on the bottom. Look around more and you'll find people who are doing it or have tried it. I plan to expand into Langs in the coming years and I'll create some sore of quilt box/roof similar to the Warre. 

Adam


----------



## Charlie B

What's so bad about using Lang's? I don't get it.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

Charlie B said:


> What's so bad about using Lang's?...


Who's saying that they're so bad?

Adam


----------



## Charlie B

Sorry, I should have explained my thoughts in more detail. Not on this site but on others there seems to be a big debate
about using Warre hives vs. Langs. There are several makers of Warre hives in the bay area who advertise the benefits of
Warre hives vs. the "Old way of beekeeping" using Langs.

Charlie


----------



## forgeblast

http://warre.biobees.com/

You can download the . free e-book (PDF). It talks about warre's research, his problems with various other hives and how his hive tries to overcome this. 

I have a warre hive, easy to make. As far as not having removable bars, my bars are brad nailed in and can be removed. I have also seen half bars that have a downward bar that runs down about half way to keep it from being attached to the sides. 

Quilted top for me is hardware cloth, then burlap then the wood shavings, then burlap and finally another layer of hardware cloth to keep any mice out. The roof sits on top of that.


----------



## sqkcrk

BeehiveProject said:


> I am all ears...


Well, I don't know what is meant by operating one in the manner of the other, but, why wouldn't you just do w/ one what it is designed for?

How would one operate a Lang in the manner of a Warre?

Wouldn't that be like using a Lefthand Baseball Mit on your right hand? Sorta?


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

>>Charlie B wrote>> "...there seems to be a big debate about using Warre hives vs. Langs. There are several makers of Warre hives in the bay area who advertise the benefits of Warre hives vs. the "Old way of beekeeping" using Langs."

Well, each design has it's benefits and limitations. A lot of the stuff you hear about how much better one is over another can be traced to marketing a product, or profiting in some way on that approach - and that's understandable. I think we're all better off if we keep an open mind and try our best to use what is available to us to keep healthy bees and to achieve our personal and/or professional goals with bees on a basis of healthy bee management practices. 

...and it seems like most of us are constantly striving to discover what the best approach to reaching those goals is.

I think most beekeepers are open to improvement if they see a way to improve. But the meaning of "improvement" is going to vary from one person to the next. This makes it difficult to declare many absolutes regarding what is "best" or "right".


Adam


----------



## Charlie B

Thanks Forgeblast, I'll research it.

Charlie


----------



## Beethinking

sqkcrk,

The main ideas to me would be:

1) No foundation
2) Undersupering/Nadiring
3) Quilt box
4) Hands off

You can certainly do this with a Lang, as I've done it with one here or there, though I've not put a quilt box on my Langstroth hives. Giving them a "ladder" comb can help them move up or down into a foundationless box. Even Dr. Miller talks about undersupering in his "50 Years Among the Bees." 

I've just switched my only Langstroth hive to 8 frame mediums, no foundation, as this brings the boxes a little closer to Warre dimensions.

Best,
Matt


----------



## sqkcrk

Why the no foundation route. Do you cut all of your comb from the frames to crush and strain?


----------



## BeehiveProject

All good info. Will take it under advisement. Concerns with warmth for winter and moisture removal.. I like the quilt top concept. I'd imagine I'll eventually experiment with all forms even the octagon shaped hive.. ran across that one last night.. interesting.. to say the least. 

My focus is not on big honey production for sale, but rather, what give the bees the healthiest environment. Population is down in my area and it has been noticeable in the garden this year. Heck even the hummingbird feeders have been void of bees.. our nectar flow has ground to a halt with the excessive heat. Usually, when that happens, the HB feeders are slammed.

More thoughts are welcome... just trying to soak it all in and process what route to take in the next few weeks.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

People still wire foundationless. I don't think mediums are too much of a problem in terms of sagging comb, but I know many people will wire deeps or divide them with a piece of wood to support the comb surface.

Adam


----------



## Bush_84

Well I think that if you plan on using Langs, but want a Warre you are kind picking and choosing. To me the big thing about warre hives is the size. It's supposedly better for the bees and better for wintering based off of the optimal size for the brood nest. If you use 8 frame Langs you are altering those dimensions. You can certainly try it however. 

If I were you and you want to use Langs with some Warre principles I would use foundationless frames. I do not see an issue with using frames as long as they are foundationless. It goes along with the notion of letting bees build their comb to their desires without forcing them to a certain size. You could certainly use top bars if you wanted, but I think the frames would be ok. This would also allow you to recycle comb through as I believe that is an advantage of top bars. 

I would also use the same sized box. You will not be supering at all so you want the same sized box to put underneath. 

I would also try to fashion some sort of quilt. As said you could easily rig up a super or some other box for that. The roof you could probably also figure out as long as the sides of the roof overhang the quilt. You do not want that burlap exposed to the air/rain. 

Other than that stuff....ya just put the frames from the nuc into the top box. Put a box or two underneath it. Add boxes underneath as needed. Right now I am using spare comb in the boxes underneath to encourage the bees down. You would probably do just fine without it, but I guess it doesn't hurt. It might help when they are just starting. 

With these things there are no right answers or wrong answers as this is an opinion matter. If you want to try it go for it. I myself am getting interested in Langs, but I am still in my first year and have plenty on my hands right now. I am also short on the funds to get into Langs, which is why I built 2 KTBHs and 2 Warres for almost nothing. It's all about what works for you!


----------



## Beethinking

sqkcrk,

I believe foundation is unnecessary, costly, and possibly detrimental to the colony. Every test I've done in a hive by putting in frames with foundation and those without has shown that the bees prefer those without foundation. Maybe it was luck, but to me I think for the hobbyist or sideline beekeeper that there is no need for it. I also prefer crushing and straining to extracting as I find it to be quicker (using a fruit press) and it removes old combs from the hive. 

Best,
Matt


----------



## BeehiveProject

Thanks All... will likely go with frames but let the bees draw their own comb. Bush84 good point on the same size box... Will make sure we do that. My buddy is a wood working sort of guy, so we can adapt the top to fit the quilt concept. We'll see how it goes. 

There are so many opinions on this... and you really have to suspend judgement and listen. As mentioned earlier, I am soaking it all in and precessing. Given the reading and re-education of late, I feel like I am back in grad school. Color the better half less than pleased with my lack of hearing orders I am being given at home!  

Anyhoo.. more thoughts are appreciated....


----------



## sqkcrk

Cacklewack said:


> possibly detrimental to the colony.
> Best,
> Matt


Thanks Matt. Makes sense for your operation.

Detrimental? How? What way?

Do most of you draw comb, foundationless, in frames between already drawn comb? I wouldn't expect a box of frames, even w/ wires, to produce combs in the frames, necassarily. I'd expect alot of cross combing.


----------



## Michael Bush

>The 8 frame English hive from Brushy Mountain I like. The question is, or has anyone, used a Langstroth as a Warre.. 

No but I've put just top bars in them and when they were full moved them to a ten frame box and when that was full moved them to a 22 frame box and when that was full moved them to 33 frame box...

>if so, just stack brood on top and feed empty boxes in from the bottom? Quilt top still used? 

I didn't, but I see no reason why you can't if you can do it on a Warre. but I don't think Warre was intending to do any inspections.

I run a lot of eight frame mediums with foundaitonless frames. That would be my preference.


----------



## forgeblast

http://www.ruche-warre.com/ is a french commercial warre producer.
You can see in the pictures the type of 1/2 frame I was talking about. Where the frame comes down but is foundationless. 
(if you have a google toolbar it will translate the page for you).
He states he harvests several tons of honey a year.


----------



## BeehiveProject

Mr. Bush.. thanks very much for your insight....


----------



## Kelbor

I just captured an unexpected swarm and went threw them into the only hive I could find. It is a modified Lang ten frame Deep. The two end frames on each side have been modified to allow the inside corners to be blocked off (They are a few inches shorter). So, inside of hive is a octogon while outside is square. It was a project of my bee Sensei's that he said worked fine. He built a shed style roof and quilt box for it as well. It is just a single now (bees have been in for only 2 days) but I am going to throw a unmodified super under it with, maybe, half frames like the french guy mentioned above and see what happens. I am also builidng a screened bottom as I have heard they work well in my area (northwest). Right now the bees are using a cork sized hole and dont seem to mind....


----------



## Jim 134

#9 http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-no-Thoughts-Suggestions&p=670067#post670067


Charlie B said:


> Sorry, I should have explained my thoughts in more detail. Not on this site but on others there seems to be a big debate
> about using Warre hives vs. Langs. There are several makers of Warre hives in the bay area who advertise the benefits of Warre hives vs. the "Old way of beekeeping" using Langs.
> 
> 
> Charlie


Warre hives and Langs are about the same age just my $0.02


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


----------



## Paul McCarty

I have heard of a few people using stacked 5 frame Nucleus boxes as Warre hives. Supposedly the dimensions are similar. Just have to build a quilt top. They would be a lot lighter too.


----------



## The Honey Girl's Boy

I keep bees in Langstroths, Warres and Top Bars. It is true that some aspects of each are interchangeable. The main concept of each style of hive is “what is the keeper’s agenda with the bees?” Each system has advantages and disadvantages, again depending on the keeper’s objectives for the bees. Basically bees can do well in practically any style of hive. I keep bees in Langs because I want honey and other bee products. The Lang and its system of management, done properly, is designed to provide the maximum level of production by design. It can be done quite well while still focused on healthy bees. 
Emile Warre developed his hive to walk a fine line of allowing bees to bee as natural as possible and still allow access to the hive and product for the keeper. Colony sizes and production is smaller then Langs. An average colony size is about 25, 000 bees compared to upwards of 70,000 in a Lang. Don’t get me wrong here on this next part- “keeping bees isn’t easy, but it is easier in a Warre, by design”. 
The Top Bar, I believe, is for keepers that like to “fuss” with their bees. Nothing wrong with that, if that’s what the keeper wants bees for. For me it is fun, to a point. I am either lazy, or not a control freak. A bit too much “fussing” for me. 
I interchange some methods and concepts between the different hives. I am sold on condensation boxes, (quilts). I designed them to fit the Langs and Top Bars. The rotation of comb in the Warre and Top Bar hives is self explanatory. I remove 3 old empty frames in each Lang brood box every early spring and replace them with frames with a ½ inch started strip on them. So about every 3 years the wax is rotated out. There is no such thing as a right or wrong hive; it’s just what is right or wrong for the keeper. Ernie


----------



## sqkcrk

Quilt Top? I bet I could find an illustration and directions on MBs' site. Anybody want to tell me about it here tho?

I run some 5 frame nucs tghru the summer, just in case I need them. And then there are always some left to overwinter.


----------



## forgeblast

Quilt top on my warre is as follows. I put hardware cloth on the bottom of the box. then put burlap in, filled the burlap with wood shavings (i used the shavings/bedding that they sell at farm supply stores), then i sealed up the burlap and but another layer of hardware cloth. The hardware cloth is to keep the mice from getting into the shavings and the hive itself.
Between the quilt box, and the hive box I have a piece of row cover fabric just to provide a buffer between the two(i didnt want the bees building on the quilt box). 
The quilt box helps with condensation, it acts like a chimney getting moisture out of the hive, especially important in the winter. If you have seen moldy comb its recommended to use a quilt top.


----------



## sqkcrk

So, basically it is a box, aka deep super?, filled w/ insulating material that also gathers the moisture given off by the bees?


----------



## forgeblast

I think, off the top of my head it may be about 5-6 inches tall. Yes on the moisture collecting. The way I wrapped my head around it was when we were planning our chicken coop, a coop too small, will collect with moisture causing frost bit to the chickens, but if you give them enough room they will be fine all winter long. Our chicks were fine even with a nasty winter this year. Has to be smilar with the bees.


----------



## WPG

Cacklewack said:


> sqkcrk,
> 
> The main ideas to me would be:
> 
> 1) No foundation
> 2) Undersupering/Nadiring
> 3) Quilt box
> 4) Hands off
> 
> Matt


I think a main point #5 may be just as important, and that is having the boxes _square_ so they can be turned the warm-way(frames cross-ways to the entrance) for winter and then turned in the spring to the cold-way(as we normally do the Langstrothe).

Merging Warre and Langstrothe techniques may be the best management for todays challenges.

Goodluck


----------



## kaydee

how would i make a quilt for tbh 17" wide 36" long with a gabled roof? i was thinking of lining roof with a rectangle of foam insulation-leaving 2-3 inches between foamboard and top bars. 
which would be more efficient in south ontario winter?
thanks


----------



## The Honey Girl's Boy

Kaydee,
The way I built condensation boxes for my Top Bars is “follower board” wood frames with mosquito screen on both sides about 4 inches wide. I fill these condensation follower boards with wood shavings and place one at each end of the colony. It is a bit tricky to build these condensation follower boards tight enough to keep the bees from getting by. I just traced off a regular follower board that fit well. I place a sheet of 1 ½ inch insulation foam over the entire bar area in the winter and lay a flat roof over it. The insulation and thick wood shavings keep the colony warm, but allow a certain amount of moisture movement. The only draw back I am running up against is the open cavities at either end on the outside of the condensation follower boards will mold a bit. This winter I am trying a method a fellow Top Bar’er told me and put crumpled up newspaper in the open cavity area. The other thing I do is build my Top Bars out of rough cut 2 inch cedar for insulation.

Ernie


----------



## BGhoney

Seems like any kind of foundation keeps the bees from festooning which is the fastest way for them to build comb. I've been using wax and plastic foundation for years and started cutting out my plastic frames to allow them to build what ever size comb they want. Making bees build on anything seems contrary to what they would do in the wild. when they enter a tree or a house they dont build cells right on the wooden tree or inner plywood, they always suspend the comb. Should be all switched over to small cell in a couple years.


----------



## A. S. Templeton

BGhoney said:


> Seems like any kind of foundation keeps the bees from festooning which is the fastest way for them to build comb. I've been using wax and plastic foundation for years and started cutting out my plastic frames to allow them to build what ever size comb they want. Making bees build on anything seems contrary to what they would do in the wild.


1"-tall thin solid or foundation wax strips installed in a topbar or demi- or full-frame may suffice. This can be and is being done with hTBHs, Warrés, and Langs. But Langs IMO have too many structural defects for Warré-style management: honey boxes too heavy when loaded; overlarge, drafty rectangular "wine crate" form factor (unlike cozier square, 30%-smaller boxes); heterogeneous box depths; engaged handles making it difficult to lift & subinsert new boxes.

Contrary to Warré dogma, I believe frames are okay in Warrés, so long as frame-style, interventionist management do not follow. I may fire up the table saw and give 'em a shot this year for spring-service new boxes...

/AT


----------



## Zonker

kaydee said:


> how would i make a quilt for tbh 17" wide 36" long with a gabled roof? i was thinking of lining roof with a rectangle of foam insulation-leaving 2-3 inches between foamboard and top bars.
> which would be more efficient in south ontario winter?
> thanks


Without getting all technical (I'm a engineer geek) the foam insulation is closed-cell and you could end up with condensation dripping back down on your bees during the winter. If you want to use a modern material instead of the saw dust I'd recommend that you use unbatted fiberglass. Unbatted insulation may not be available in your area, but you can always tear the batting (brown paper) off of batted insulation.


----------



## A. S. Templeton

Zonker said:


> Without getting all technical (I'm a engineer geek) the foam insulation is closed-cell and you could end up with condensation dripping back down on your bees ... unbatted fiberglass.


Simpler is better: I used to have a nightmare of condensation and mold problems until I settled on this solution:

* Ventilated and screened quilt box (1" holes, mesh & fabric exterior to keep out bugs & mice)
* Synthetic curtail-liner fabric silicone-glued to underside (also acts an anti-slip)
* Filled with shaved-aspen pet bedding works very well.

Fancy foams, fire-retardant fiberglass, cellulose home insulation are all unnecessary. The aspen fill insulates, suppresses chimney drafts, and lets excess water vapor vent outside, preventing drips on the underside of the roof.

/AT


----------



## Paul McCarty

I use a simple 4-5 inch tall box with burlap on both sides and filled with red cedar chips. Serves a double duty as an interface between non-standard sized roofs and standard hive boxes too. Sits on my inner cover under the outer cover/roof.


----------

