# 2 queen colony questions



## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

I forget the name, but I'm thinking about trying it this year.

If I recall correctly, two deeps on typical bottom board, a double queen excluder, another deep with second queen and top entrance above, supers above that. The double excluders keep the queens from stinging each other. The top entrance also lets the drones out. I've got a 3/8" spacer made to use between excluders.

The thinking is workers below will travel past the double excluders to the supers above. More workers per super. I hear you need to harvest throughout to keep super space available and help avoid swarming. When described to me, that configuration helps make full and presentable comb honey.

Keep us posted.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

You will get more honey off the nucs with a 2 ways system. Remember that one strong hive will outproduce two smaller colonies.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

lakebilly said:


> A two queen colony with a queen excluder separating colonies.
> 
> 1. Is this a nuc type situation or can you grow this colony to share a honey super? A Qn X would be necessary between brood super & Honey super.


I used a double width hive with a vertical queen excluder in the middle. Thinking 3x width would have worked better to have easier access to brood nests. You can put a queen excluder under the shared supers on top.



lakebilly said:


> What is the benefit of a 2Q colony vs two individual colonies?


- Combination of desired qualities. For example: one hygienic, the other a great honey producer.
- Produces a bit more honey than two separate colonies due to increased numbers.



lakebilly said:


> If you can peacefully & productively maintain a 2 Qn colony, what is to stop you from a Qn bank type box w/Qn X separating any others? (room for brood?)


Allows more room for each brood nest.

Other things includes: 
- If a queen dies or is removed the hive continues without any setbacks.
- My hive drew out nearly 50 deep frames of foundationless comb (without feeding).

Here's more details about my experiences: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275870-Two-queen-hive-and-different-breeds


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Matt, Your post is what prompted my interest along w/ a suggestion that it would be a good way to replace some of the 40+ hives I lost this year. I saved your post to my favorites until I get the whole idea cemented in my thick skull. 

Without building a dbl wide, just split a 10 frame down the middle w/QnX? 


Any pics of your setup? I can't visualize the super above a double wide.(20 frames horizontal?)

throrope, interesting. bottom box lets drones out through porch exit? 3 deeps & Honey supers sounds like heavy lifting. Sounds like a good way to take brood frames, add queen for overwintering, or taking capped brood for cell builder.


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## Sir_Gregory (Apr 19, 2013)

I know of a russian man who disigned a two queen hive that was divided vertically. I have also been told of a man who made a 15 hive super. I am a jr in high school and I am going to do my senior project on the differant numbers of queens in one hive.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

post it here.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Lakebilly, below is a photo of the setup with supers. The half width boxes on each side allow easy access to the brood chambers. The top entrances are into these and access to the super is via each roof. There is a pallet on top in the photo, which is not needed.

There is a vertical queen excluder in the center of the double width box. A queen excluder goes under the super. So the queen excluders are in a "T" shape. There is 14 frames for each queen.

The half width boxes are also great for making Nucs and it makes it easy to do a split.

I had to add another level of supers on as well. So thinking a 3x width box may be better if wanting a horizontal hive.

I found frames were drawn quickly in the half width boxes, so I moved frames to the center super and they would then cure the nectar there. Then more frames were drawn in the half width boxes.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Nice! This is when a "like" selection would be good.

Are you getting brood in the nuc boxes? I bet you could get a lot of nurse bees in the center box for cell starters.

What does the honey supers look like? a nuc box on each end & 10 frame in middle like the pic?

I think I am going to make a couple of these.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Yes, getting brood in the Nuc boxes. That's why I said each queen has 14 frames. 10 in the bottom and 4 in the Nucs.

I just had 10 frames supers above that. But you could just continue with the Nucs on the sides if you wanted. May need to put a strap on then.

I should also mention that they started winter as two 4 frame colonies with a solid partition in the center. Once they had 3 frames of brood each, I then merged them with the vertical queen excluder.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1. Is this a nuc type situation or can you grow this colony to share a honey super?

Usually a two queen hive is two booming brood nests with one stack of supers. This greatly increases honey production.

> A Qn X would be necessary between brood super & Honey super.
>What is the benefit of a 2Q colony vs two individual colonies?

Production. More surplus workers to make a surplus.

>If you can peacefully & productively maintain a 2 Qn colony, what is to stop you from a Qn bank type box w/Qn X separating any others? (room for brood?) 

I've never tried that many queens. None would have room to lay much...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestwoqueenhive.htm


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Michael, do you run any 2 colony hives?

48 3/4" is that inside or outside dimensions?

How do they cluster in the winter & is it harder in a cold winter for them to break cluster & move?

Thx Matt.

Would you suggest top entrances?

I take it you stack a 10 medium in the center w/ migratory lids @ each end.

Monitoring for swarms weekly?

I bet you could get a lot of nurse bees in a center box for cell starters. I want to raise queens w/cloakeboard, would you say this setup would be a good way?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, do you run any 2 colony hives?

Most years, a few, yes.

>48 3/4" is that inside or outside dimensions?

Outside.

>How do they cluster in the winter & is it harder in a cold winter for them to break cluster & move?

I pull the excluders for winter and they cluster at one end.

>Would you suggest top entrances?

If you have two brood nests on the bottom, I would give them each an entrance, and if you have a stack of supers on top I would give them an entrance at the top. A booming two queen hive has no issues with robbing. They are just too strong. They are so strong, usually, that they can get intimidating...

>Monitoring for swarms weekly?

I guess I never went weekly, but the whole purpose of having a long brood box at the bottom is so I can get to the brood chamber to monitor things like backfilling the brood nest or swarm cells.

>I bet you could get a lot of nurse bees in a center box for cell starters. I want to raise queens w/cloakeboard, would you say this setup would be a good way? 

Any strong hive will do to get more bees for a cell starter. Certainly the density of bees in a two queen hive tends to be high.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I have 4/ 10 frame deeps split in middle w/luaun. I was thinking that I would swap the luaun for an excluder & start 4 2 Qn colonies until I get the 4' boxes built. Starting w/a split 10 frame seems to me to be a safer way than dropping 4 frames x 2 of bees in a 4' box.

I want to raise queens w/cloakeboard, would you say this setup would be a good way? 

Matt was saying that they tend to draw out frames faster in the nuc boxes. 
What does the frame config look like; Empty-H/P- Brood- Brood-H/P -QnX-H/P-Brood-Brood-H/P-Empty?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

As Michael said, for winter put each brood nest hard up against an end and put in a solid partition to divide them. This is so they don't get isolated from honey during winter. The partition is because the first queen to start laying in early spring may be preferred and the bees get rid of the other one. That is why I wait until they both have a few frames of brood, before merging the two.

I tried different entrance configurations and prefer having both top and bottom entrances. The bottom entrances are small, only a 1/2" most of the year and opened up more when very hot. The top entrances are in the lid. The bottom ends in the photo can be pulled out.

Had no issues with swarming. I believe this is because they were constantly building the comb in the Nucs. I also tried to made sure there was always about 1/3 open brood and plenty of space for the queen to lay in. If there isn't, I would insert a new (foundationless) frame BESIDE the broodnest.

I raised queens by just by placing a couple of brood frames a couple of boxes away from a brood nest or just do a spilt by removing a Nuc box with some brood in it. I did three splits with this hive as well.

The 4 frames in each of the Nucs were mostly nectar/honey, but occasionally had some brood in the bottom of them. I would move two of the nectar/honey frames into the Supers and replace them with new (foundationless) frames. Didn't seem to matter much if alternated or just put on the outsides. If two had brood I would keep them together.

Make sure you have gentle strains of bees, because you have a lot more bees to deal with.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

That is why I wait until they both have a few frames of brood, before merging the two.

You remove the Qn excluder?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Isn't it easier to manage a Tower Hive? 










http://beeinformed.org/2012/06/tower-hives/


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Lakebilly, yes I remove the queen excluder and replace with a follower board.

Beecurious, it may well be easier with two separate hives next to each other in a tower configuration. Especially if you are just trying it without wanting to make special equipment. I started off with the longhive, then decided to try two queens. I also wanted the bees to be able to freely mix between the brood nests, rather than just in the supers.

I think the larger area (2x 10 frame) of brood nests under the supers encourages comb building.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

when do you remove excluder?

what's the difference other than a period of time(?) with the two tower config?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Lots of ways to run two queen hives. One thing I have experienced that has not been mentioned here. Many times the bees will prefer one queen over another. Maybe not right away, but eventually, They will jump ship to the other side, especially when over wintering. Perhaps one queen has more pheromone and is more actively laying over winter than the other. Hard to say why. 
Remember, when banking queens you must add them all at once. Any new younger queens that are installed will get preferential treatment and the older queens will be neglected. Same would go for multiple queen hives. I'd introduce them at the same time, possibly make them with queen cells or newly hatched virgins of the same age and from the same queen mother if possible. Multiple Daughters are generally more tolerated within one hive it seems. 
Timing is importaint. Remeber bees are more defensive in the late fall because of pressure from robbing. I would have the hives assembled before the day length starts getting shorter.
Two queen hives are something done in Alaska, since they have a pretty short season. You might look that up..I don't have any links handy.
I ran divided deeps X2 with Q excluder on top so bees could mingle and share supplimental feed too. If you do this, grow them in these box's, don't try to move them into it from a different box.. The disruption of the colonies interior arrangement sets them back and they won't winter well if it is done late fall.

Also remember at some point you will have to seperate these colonies because of their size. That will also set them back because of broodnest disruption. All in all, it sounds like a good idea, but I won't do it again unless I have mating nucs I want to leave intact to overwinter.

Those that experiment with it be sure to let us know your results!


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Lauri I was hoping you would chime in. 

Someone posted something about you & Michael Palmer discussing 2 Qn setups. Post the link?

I saw your facebook page w/the 60 capped Qn cells, IMPRESSIVE. I would be interested in at least five if you feel like shipping them to NY. I am on a very low budget, but would splurge for some good Qns.

One thing I have experienced that has not been mentioned here. Many times the bees will prefer one queen over another. Maybe not right away, but eventually,

Take one Qn & some brood for an overwintering nuc?

I am hoping to use a 2 Qn setup to make up losses (45 as of today) I built 4 30 frame boxes.

I was thinking of towering over the center 10 to use cloakboard. What say you?

What do you think about 2 existing Qns in struggling hives in this configuration?

Beecurious. I think I would try that tower hive. I like the use of the drone frames will do that in all 4 of my 30 frame setups.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I would replace the excluder on one of the last inspections before winter sets in or when temperatures are getting below 12°C/54°F.

I did also see drifting or preference to one queen as well. During the early Spring buildup the Italian queen's nest was larger and drift was towards this side. As the Carniolan queen got going, the drifting started moving to that side. It appears to be based on the size of the brood nest.

Another thing I'm thinking is to remove both the queens and make Nucs, around 3-4 weeks before the Summer dearth. (For me that's a few weeks after the summer solstice.) That way the population quickly drops off in time for the dearth so they eat less. They are also raising new queens while concentrating on foraging as the flow slows down.

You don't need to use a cloak board to raise queens. I just moved a brood frame too far away from the brood nest (a super in-between) and they made queen cells (with two queens in the hive!) The virgin queen ended up killing off the Italian queen.

Instead of using a cloak board, you can also just put a piece of newspaper (with a few holes poked in it) on top of the queen excluder with a few brood frames above it. Just make sure you have a top entrance!


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Matt,

Ya think you could tell me the beginner steps. I have 10 queens from Weavers coming on the 21st (thanx Lauri). I don't want to goof up. 

I have 2 30 frame boxes finished & 2 more started. I pulled 12 queens from some of my hives, they're in 5 frame nucs. notched the brood frames on the left behinds (Mel) hoping to get some cells. I also put a Jenter cage in one of the nucs w/a queen(Michael Johnston) that had like 10-12 frames of brood. Putting together a cpl of cell starters(David LaFerney, Deknow, Clemens) 

I'm thinking that 2 frames of brood each side, 1 pollen, 1 honey. new queens cells or ....?

How would you introduce another queen should something happen to one?

Big box. use follower board & entrance reducer. feed 1:1. 

I wouldn't be against doing each of the 4 boxes different if I had some pointers.

My intentions are to steal brood for mating nucs, build medium frame foundationless to be able to cut queen cells.
I can hear M. Palmer (ala Master Po) take it easy grasshopper. I gotta get my numbers back up!! Trevor is helping me. Thanx again Michael!


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Sounds like some aggressive splitting!

I would put in two Nucs, as they already have an established brood nest and a laying queen. 2 frames of brood and 2 of pollen/nectar on each side would be the minimum.

If you put in a couple of queens in cages or queen cells, I would think that the one that starts laying first will be preferred and a you'll see drifting to that queen. They may even kill off the late starter.

That's why I waited until both queens each have a few frames of brood before merging. With new queens I believe you would be better off waiting until they are both laying eggs first, before any merging, to avoid loosing one queen. (Doesn't mean you will, it's just in case.)

When I merged the two Nucs, I had a new frame on each side of the vertical excluder, then each brood nest beside those. I didn't use a follower board, but think it could have helped.

Be careful that your excluder is secure. I lost a queen the other day because the younger queen got past the excluder and must have killed the older one.

I wouldn't feed unless they are running low on stores, (but it could help in the merging process.)

Have fun! (Just don't spread them too thin.)


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Matt, When you say "Merge", you remove excluder?

Any variations for other 3 boxes?

Aggressive maybe, guardedly enthusiastic!!


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

No, don't remove the excluder!

Merge means worker bees from each colony can freely move between the two. The queens are confined to their own side by the excluder, otherwise they can fight.

You could try dividing the box into three, with the middle section being for honey only, supering on the middle only. Still two brood nests, but each on the outsides.

You could also try putting three Nucs in your long hives. But numbers could increase quickly!


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

"You could also try putting three Nucs in your long hives. But numbers could increase quickly!"

OK & there's a downside to that? what is "quickly'?

I will have 4 boxes to play with......that sounds like the fun you were talking about! I can rob some brood for mating nucs if things go well. I have plenty of supers LET'M RIP!


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

If you have plenty of supers then you should be right. I didn't and had to make more in a hurry.

I suppose it depends on how you think about the hive. If you think of it as one hive and only add one super at a time, you may be surprised how quickly they run out out of space on a good flow. Having to inspect weekly to make sure you keep up.

If you think of it as a hive per Queen, then with three queens you will add three supers at a time and keep up with them.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Would you say that it would be dependent on how many frames of brood would warrant X amount of supers?

I have no problem w/3 @ a time. 

Thanks Matt. look forward to some "fun".


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

There are a number of factors that determine the amount of supers that are needed. Go by what "normal" hives are doing and when you would add supers and look at how much brood that they have. I think that it's more dependent on the flow and the number of foragers you have in a hive. But you do need to consider how crowded the brood nest is with young bees. 

Keep the wax makers busy by "opening the sides" of each of the brood nests. 

This is something I'm investigating: does having multiple queens reduce the chances of reproductive swarming? (Due to more open brood.) That's if they don't run out of room! ie. reproductive swarm verses overcrowding swarm.

Let us know how it goes.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

got queens coming today tomorrow, splits shortly there after.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Matt,

When I was trying to introduce a new queen into what I thought was a queenless nuc, the bees were going nuts trying to kill the new queen through the screen. That leads me to these questions.

How do you introduce two colonies to the box & what do you watch for? What do you do if the bees are incompatible at the outset? Are there ways to make peace between two colonies that dislike each other initially?

Can you explain your approach for the start up?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

How long has the Nuc been queenless? Sounds like they think they have a queen, could it be a virgin queen? 

You need to establish if there is another queen (or laying worker) before releasing her, as they will most likely fight and one get killed.

If there isn't a queen, they will get used to each other after a few days. (As long as there are some workers in with the queen to feed her from the candy.) 

I merge the two colonies by putting each Nuc in the long hive separated with a division board. The Nucs both have the same size population. (I use 4 frame Nucs.) So each Nuc has their own entrance at opposite ends of the box.

Then after a few weeks of setting in (and some drifting), I replace the division board with a vertical queen excluder and place a frame of foundation on each side of the vertical queen excluder. So the setup is:

Nuc1, a new frame, vertical queen excluder, new frame, Nuc2.

If you are worried that they still dislike each other, put a couple more new frames between them.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Matt,

I did not see the queen @ 1st inspection when we were doing splits, & the yard was a group of nucs that I thought all but two were queenless. I set it up that way to take the queens I got from B Weaver. got 7/10 acceptance & the queens have doubled in size & are doing well.

I finished 2/4 of the double queen boxes & my entrance need to be moved as per your post. They are side by side now. I separated two QX's 1 1/2" apart so that queens can't fight @ the excluder. I'll use a piece of luaun for a division board to start.

gonna rain here so I am not sure when I'll get to it. have a pasture to finish & lots of work in remodeling biz, & moving animals. need more daylight!


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

So there was another queen then.

With a single queen excluder I never had an issue with queens fighting (that I know of). But probably a good idea to give them some time to get used each other before going to one excluder.


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