# Lang nuc to warrè chalenge



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Grégori said:


> Searching for some easier manner of beekeeping I found the promise of people's hive and start the process:


Hello Gregori - I've very much enjoyed reading your posts thus far  - here are a few thoughts about the Warre Hive, which (imo) isn't quite the perfect solution it's so often claimed to be. Anyway, here are a few comments for you to think about ...
What follows are Warre's key ideas and claims:
_
I thus had a hive of eight 300 x 400 mm frames, a hive that was ideal for winter. But if the hive should be of reduced size in winter, in summer it should provide the bees with the space they need, generally two or three times more than in winter.
[..] the bees did not always fill the top hive-body box with honey. There was sometimes some brood at the bottom of the frames and some honey at the top. Harvesting was difficult. We have replaced it with two boxes giving the same volume with the same shape. 

*The People's Hive was thus designed.* And if small hives with frames economise on winter stores and facilitate the development of brood in spring,* a hive with fixed comb will do it better because its volume is smaller: *36 litres instead of 44. We therefore designed the People's Hive with fixed comb. *Now we noticed that the People's Hive with fixed combs saved an extra 3 kg of stores *compared with the People's Hive with frames.

[...] the People's Hive with fixed combs is an economical hive par excellence: easy to build, in any case less expensive – no frames or foundation; fewer inspections; opening the hive only once a year; 12 kg winter provisions instead of between 15 and 18 kg; respect for the laws of nature, thus no diseases._

Examining that last sentence: 
*easier and less expensive to build* - yes.
*no frames of foundation* - the Top Bar version suffers from the problem of comb attachment to the box sides. If frames are chosen, these can either be foundation-based, OR foundationless.
*fewer inspections* - irrelevant. The style of hive has no bearing on the number of inspections a beekeeper chooses to make during the season.
*opening the hive once a year* - totally unrealistic.
*reduced winter provisions* - yes, but *because of a reduced hive volume*, NOT because of the fixed combs, per se.
*laws of nature, thus no diseases* - wishful thinking, and highly misleading.

There *are* Warre variations which work better than Warre's own version: some Russians/Ukrainians run 108mm 1/4-height boxes commercially and very effectively, and simply accept the box-wall adhesion limitations.
Myself, I'm currently in the process of converting my apiary to the use of a long forgotten frame, the size of which makes it equally suitable for Warre-style vertical hives, appropriately-sized horizontal hives, AND a reduced-size version of a conventional 'supered' hive.

Warre's claims of minimal intervention are NOT borne out in practice, with many Warre beekeepers reporting the need for multiple box manipulations during the season - and that's a lot of lifting. Some have even invented mechanical lifting devices, because of such demands.

Hope some of the above is at least of passing interest. 
'best,
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Grégori said:


> I found the promise of people's hive


You don't need to hang up on the "people's hive".

There more optimal ways ESPECIALLY (again) if you already start with the Lang frames and, thus, compatibility is highly desired for easy bee transfers between the systems.

But I do remember you are coming from some location without electricity (like you said).
Thus I am confused about the feasibility of the goals.
Originally, sounded like the low-tech/low-construction was the way - e.g. Tansanian long hive.
Multi-body hives will be a high-construction way...... Just saying.

Some overview:








Alpine (108mm) Hive Youtube channels


Hello. I'd like to share a few of my favourite youtube channels of users of the Alpine hive/ Alpiski/ альпийский улей/ H-108/ Homich/ Khomich-Delon/ Half-Delon, whatever it is you want to call it, since it doesn't have an English name. The little Warré descendant with internal dimensions...




www.beesource.com





My way is built to be compatible to the Langs/modified Layens hives (internal dimensions are driven by reoriented Lang frames)








CVH (Compact Vertical Hive) by GregV


So yeah, I made my first CV hive and even put bees into it yesterday. https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?350173-GregV-s-Alternative-way-to-keep-(have-)-bees&p=1837675#post1837675 For the spring 2021 will build a bunch of standard small frames so to manage this thing by a box (the...




www.beesource.com


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Though I do recognize you may want to insist on the very original Warre design.

Here is a good channel of Russian-speaking fellow who insists on the original design and how he gets this done:


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0Jf8aAMix06UG4AGGmsbuA



Another Warre channel has less content but in English:


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCraGqc73DPYFPsxrzMLNSmg/videos


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> You don't need to hang up on the "people's hive".
> 
> There more optimal ways ESPECIALLY (again) if you already start with the Lang frames and, thus, compatibility is highly desired for easy bee transfers between the systems.
> 
> ...


Hi Greg - I hope Gregori won't mind me replying about his access to power tools, but a couple of days ago he wrote:

_Now I found Tanzanian that seems to fit me.
I realize by myself that I can use stick as top bar ( I know I will do in some time) but I'm a handcraftsman and love work with natural source. 
In my mommy's house* I have a workshop with some power tools and in my jungle's house I have some hand tools* that i can make something._

I agree with what you have written above - it looks like Gregori may have become distracted by the Warre 'doctrine' - too many choices on offer ... LOL 

BTW - "jungle" sounds very tropical to me (but then what do I know, based where I am) - which suggests a horizontal hive of some type would be optimum for that locale anyway, rather than vertical. Perhaps ?
'best
LJ


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## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

Thankyou, man!!
I love to study/share and i know the knowledgement is the HIGHEST IMPORTANT tag in the life!
I think I can see through warre's eyes it seems a little weird some times. Found varroa in my bees today, one colony quite easy to found the parasites, the nuc just gnawed wings.
Every comb is absolutely natural, without foundation.



> Hope some of the above is at least of passing interest.


With yours explanations I turn some especial keys that brougth me some comprehension about the process.



> Thus I am confused about the feasibility of the goals.


I can work around one milimeter variations but are dependent of the quality the lumber acquired... some times I have some gaps.



> Originally, sounded like e low-tech/low-construction was the way


I Have the possibility to do some more detailed work but a im searching for some dependentlles way of do.



> My way is built to be compatible to the Langs/modified Layens hives (internal dimensions are driven by reoriented Lang frames)


Awesome work, very smart!!!
I was read about reorientation, now these conversion added, sound perfect!!!
Wen the tree fall down the trunk change his position... some bees keep alive.

This idea about a trunk passionates me. Now I'm understanding better some particularities about each system.

This is jungle









I just forgot my cellphone at the nearest neighbour, 2km behind.
Morning inspection -
At the centre of the top bar ( that one atached with wires to an empty lang frame) the bees scratch the wax strip and start to build, at the extremes of a top bar two perfect combs with aprox 5x8cm no brood, no eggs this bar. It still in this hive.

At the nuc , I found some large combs, irregular forms, with honey, pollen stores, brood (the frames has a looooooooot of brood, low in available cell for eggs but i forget about the eggs) easy attachments and combs hanging the wall.
One capped queen cell(young larvae) anothers newer. First time I ate royal jelly.
So creamy🙃🙃🙃
The bees are working normally.

Wat worried me:
Varroa both behhives
Some dead bees , anothers in process, kicking till death in nuc.

Maybe Monday, i will perform a cut out in a trees branches. The bees will be installed in a Lang 7 frames (why 7? I just found the measurements at my scrap an decide to make)








Maybe I make the Tanzanian to fit these standard. I think I can deal with that amount of hives. Thus I will building hives and splitting, respecting the animal biologics. 

Must know about deseases.

Thank You guys
Peace


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## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

GregV said:


> Though I do recognize you may want to insist on the very original Warre design.
> 
> Here is a good channel of Russian-speaking fellow who insists on the original design and how he gets this done:
> 
> ...


I think about a trunk
maybe half frames (and half box too?) go well😉


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## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

Wath a lot of swarm impulse!!!
I was destroyed some QC's in two inspections, eight days between. In these 8 days the bees don't build combs in the warre box. I had a bar attached in a Lang box bar with perfectly drawn comb, half with raw honey an half full of eggs. This comb was bigger than the warre box I must to trim.
Open the nuc above warre box and find no eggs and some qc. I think about destroy all except 2 an then I read a totting sound. So I had destroyed all the qc.
Then I put my bar with this new comb in the warre box (this had nothing but raw wax start strip) and close everything.

After that I saw the bees flying in 8 shape three times in one day.
I came to the city.


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## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

this is my setup now. I think they swarm, the activity is inferior as the amount of bees in the box. Low experience and i think cutting the queen cell i can cut the swarm impulse. My mistake.
At the last inspection i found some queen cups with nothing inside. Eggs, larvae and brood running normaly. I dont get inside warre box but i can see the comb. They dont expand the combs in there.








i gave him a litle piece of comb, instantly they start to recicle and , at next day i found this construction. This colony have a great propolis production.
I need to undestand better the swarm control techniques.








I'll back with this soon 

Peace


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## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

inspection at july, 3. 
Now they have a new queen laying. They build some more combs at the warre box but the queen refuse to lay in these, maybe cause the little amount of bees. It will change soon, capped brood running well.


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## Grégori (May 5, 2021)

this conversion doesn't work for me.
I had added a bar with open brood, they start to make some new combs but the queen doesn't lay on these. They swarm before it and I decide to stop the process.

try again later.
thanks for all


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