# Feral Swarm Hypothesis - Kept or Unkept Bees?



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

when was the last time you did the lift test on them?
they seem up high for 2 supers of honey left on.
try taking pics from all 4 sides, from the front the right one looks up against the side unless that is heat leakage around the foam.
the left one looks to maybe be brooding.

now early Jan mid "hive" or lower I would consider good. I am challenged to see the hive outline in your pic so I can be way off.









here is the side of a 3 deep 1 medium, they are in the second deep with out the high heat your pic shows.
could be setting on the unit. I do like the Flir as a tool to determine how close to the top they are, once in the top box I feed.

GG


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> when was the last time you did the lift test on them?
> they seem up high for 2 supers of honey left on.
> try taking pics from all 4 sides, from the front the right one looks up against the side unless that is heat leakage around the foam.
> the left one looks to maybe be brooding.
> ...


Left side is between top and 1st super. Right side was being wonky - Flir was not performing well at 30deg F. I'll wait to check above freezing again and see what's happening. But the right colony is 1st super above the brood nest and they've been shrinking, I suspect the attrition might be what does them in.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Darn it, now I want to buy a FLIR.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Lee Bussy said:


> Darn it, now I want to buy a FLIR.


Get a Seek instead. The temperature tolerance is far greater and won't crap out when the temps are sub-freezing.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Lee Bussy said:


> Darn it, now I want to buy a FLIR.


an infra red type cameras is a nice toy indeed.

with the "heat saving" industry they are actually some good options.
I like the phone attached, can take a picture, SMS a pic real fast.
not the first few $100 I spent but does rank up there in the good decision band.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> an infra red type cameras is a nice toy indeed.
> 
> with the "heat saving" industry they are actually some good options.
> I like the phone attached, can take a picture, SMS a pic real fast.
> not the first few $100 I spent but does rank up there in the good decision band.


Works well if you are a cut-out person too...


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

James Lee said:


> Works well if you are a cut-out person too...


yep used it there a few times .
better pic at night or early eve when the sun is not in the sky.
its in the wall, O and look in the ceiling too.

GG


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Yesterday they appeared more centered again.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

James Lee said:


> Yesterday they appeared more centered again.
> View attachment 67029


much better

GG


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Here is an additional colony that is in its first winter "observed" by me. Second winter if going on report from landowner who cleared his parcel for a retirement home here in Milan Michigan. It's fairly rural with plenty of mono-ag around. Last update was last week and they are presently doing fine.

We will be trapping this location in the Spring. I would like to harvest some drones and potentially do some insemination with a friend. Do a VSH assay on the stock and maybe send out for some additional testing.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

This colony was living in an old farm house that's been long abandoned/condemned. It's alleged the bees showed up in 2020. They wintered with their butts hanging out in the cold. We cut them out in 2021 and I've since raised 4 daughters from the stock that are presently heading up good strong colonies.

The building sure has some history, lots of old comb in the walls, likely loaded with asbestos and lead paint haha. But, there are several other locations on the house with as much propolis as here. Interesting to see indeed.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

My Opinion of Propolis as "bee caulking" stands.
Apparently the space was too breezy.

Nice Pics, thanks for showing folks what a "hive in the wall looks like"

at least you know where they came from, 3600 what ever street.

GG


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Lee Bussy said:


> Darn it, now I want to buy a FLIR.


It will show you how leaky your boxes are. 
My insulated hive only shows heat at the entrance.
That means all of the heat is being contained by the hive, and the only heat I see is the exhaust air.
I'll get a flir pic tonight to show.
Those brightly lit hives are leaking massive amounts of heat!

My last cut-out.

Floor to ceiling!


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> My Opinion of Propolis as "bee caulking" stands.
> Apparently the space was too breezy.
> 
> Nice Pics, thanks for showing folks what a "hive in the wall looks like"
> ...


Goes to show, this particular colony was far less insulated than most standard Lang equipment ever gets. There is literally nothing there beside the wood siding - what insulation I have found on the property was actually saw-dust.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Still rocking. Still untreated.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

The one on the right has perished.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

James Lee said:


> The one on the right has perished.


bummer
well you have some spare comb now.
hope the rest do well.

hope spring arrives soon, I am getting spring fever.

GG


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

James Lee said:


> This colony was living in an old farm house that's been long abandoned/condemned. It's alleged the bees showed up in 2020. They wintered with their butts hanging out in the cold. We cut them out in 2021 and I've since raised 4 daughters from the stock that are presently heading up good strong colonies.
> 
> The building sure has some history, lots of old comb in the walls, likely loaded with asbestos and lead paint haha. But, there are several other locations on the house with as much propolis as here. Interesting to see indeed.
> 
> ...


Yes, they look like bees. I always had a hard time getting the queen unless I got real lucky or was able to place my box in the exact spot where the 'nest' had been.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> bummer
> well you have some spare comb now.
> hope the rest do well.
> 
> ...


the left most one is still thriving and doing well. Looks like the right one had brooded, split the cluster, skipped a honey box, and they perished. Still think mites impacted die off on numbers. The remaining sister has a good amount of bees.

This yard is officially 13/15 colonies as of today.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

James Lee said:


> This yard is officially 13/15 colonies as of today.



13 alive or dead outs


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

G3farms said:


> 13 alive or dead outs


13 alive.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

James Lee said:


> Works well if you are a cut-out person too...


I do cut outs and would not attempt one without some kind of IR imagry.
You can't just go willy nilly cutting up someones house.....
Also an IR image from that day not from another time as the bees can abscond.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

So the first day of Spring technically arrived in Michigan yesterday - and TBH the weather is somewhat following suit.

We've got pollen from crocus, aconite, willow, and maple coming in.

As to the original "sister" queens, 1 of 2 remains. Pulled the 2nd deadout last night and will go through it, but just on cursory basis my suspicion of them splitting the cluster seems plausible - but in the end, the mite frass concludes the ultimate end was Varroa.

Yard 1 - four 5 frame mediums stacked in 3's had 1 dink hanging on for dear life until last week or so. This will be the second season at this yard with 100% loss. The colony is located next to an ag field that the farmer just refuses to coordinate with me on about notifying before spray events. I will likely not use this yard again. 0/4

Yard 2 - My personal home yard/back yard. 1 surviving maternal line and 1 late season swarm pulled through and look really great. The maternal line has been going since 2020 and locally mated, nothing special here - but in keeping with Terry Combs' theory regarding maternal lineage, it's true to this point. 3 colonies in medium 8's stacked 3 high, 1 a caught swarm from May 21, 1 package that was split mid-season and requeened locally mated, 1 was a early split from a mite-biter colony that swarmed frequently. I made splits from her swarm cells, won't know who went where until I review my records in detail. This yard is technically 1 survivor from 5 - as the 6th is a swarm I didn't manage, just brought them home is all. 1/5 80% loss.

Yard 3 - This yard is not far from my home and in a residential neighborhood. Purchased two nucs in June 21 teeming with bees. They never thrived, did okay with honey, lots of DWV, despite mechanical interventions succumbed before winterization in the fall. 0/2, 100% loss.

Yard 4 - My main apiary, started with 15 colonies and two succumbed before winterization - late swarms that never recovered (speculatively according to a neighbor but I never saw evidence and he drinks too much) and showed signs varroa was likely setting them back all season. Of these are 5 medium 8's stacked 3 high for winter with honey stores, 1 of them was 4 high due to production tenacity! No brood breaks, no treatments, no splitting, no nothing - all May caught swarms (records will conclude more details on locations when I review them). Others are the medium 5 frame nuc configurations that were splits in June/July/August. The nuc setups are doing great save one looks dinky, but is brooding right now and may succumb with the cool weather coming up next week - we'll see. This yard in total is 13/15 87% survival.

So being fair and counting those that never started winter, total attrition in my TF apiaries for last season stands at 50%.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

James Lee said:


> So being fair and counting those that never started winter, total attrition in my TF apiaries for last season stands at 50%.


Good report, @James Lee. Keep up the good work and diligent effort. Looks like you might be on to something there at the home yard- what is appreciably different about this location versus the others beyond the obvious point of being much easier to observe? 

Are all the swarm starts in your home yard from relatively remote locations?


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> Good report, @James Lee. Keep up the good work and diligent effort. Looks like you might be on to something there at the home yard- what is appreciably different about this location versus the others beyond the obvious point of being much easier to observe?
> 
> Are all the swarm starts in your home yard from relatively remote locations?



The forage in the main yard is significant - there is a large wild natural corridor of undeveloped land with overgrown ag fields. Mostly industrial warehousing in the vicinity and lower residential (pesticides?) in the region. 

As to the home yard, aside from the maternal line of bees I kept there, these bees came from packages/treated splits and the one swarm I can recall came from a rural area - with other beekeepers in that area. The only survivor was the maternal line. FWIW


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

James Lee said:


> As to the home yard, aside from the maternal line of bees I kept there, these bees came from packages/treated splits and the one swarm I can recall came from a rural area - with other beekeepers in that area. The only survivor was the maternal line. FWIW


Sorry- I was confused. I had the main yard being your home yard... so restating my question, what is unique about the colonies in your main yard?


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Checked on a "Soffit" colony that was there in the winter the other day. Have been trapping swarms here as well as monitoring the soffit colony itself - there is another across the street in the brick... Good mating stock for my apiaries, all within 2 miles of here.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

4.10.22 Feral Swarm Sister update:


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Got to inspect it today. 16 frames of bees. Some signs of recapping, perforated caps, no notable foulbrood. Bottom insert board covered in sugar and other debris. Seriously couldn't find a mite. They're there I'm sure, just didn't see any on the bottom screened board. 

Rain was coming and more cold nights this week so getting through the remaining colonies was imperative. I counted at least 16 frames of bees and didn't dig further after finding the queen, in the last frame as usual ...always on the end for me for some reason. 

No brood breaks, no treatments. No drone culls, nothing.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Another colony, though this one was raised from a daughter of legacy TF queen stock. Locally open-mated. Split was made in June 21'. This was my first inspection on these bees. Its not entertaining in the least - but I don't value talk without proof in the TF camp as many detractors would lament...so here's my evidence of a healthy TF colony coming out of a Michigan Winter.


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)




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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

Slinging some Treatment Free Nucs this week. Couldn't fit all the bees in some of these...


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

The original colonies in the feral swarm hypothesis follow up after winter has resulted in the final remaining one swarmed off, but I have a few of her daughters demonstrating similar traits in production and capping/uncapping. They even look like their mother - which is cool because she was very unique.

Additionally, another swarm that was caught in 2021 late season, overwintered in a 1/4" plyboard swarm trap. The mite count on that colony was 12 5/14/22 there was not too much for brood at the time. On 6/17 there were two medium 8's worth of brood in all stages and the count was "0". I thought I saw a single mite - but as Randy Oliver stated in a recent article in ABJ - 1 is as significant as 0. 

We will see what the Summer brings. This colony will get an assay before summer splitting.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Looking good, @James Lee.

I appreciate getting to read about your evaluation protocol and results, and I hope you will continue to post regular updates.

Happy Father's Day.

Russ


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

The feral swarm colonies have one remaining daughter, with a sizable nest and plenty of bees heading into winter. If the daughter demonstrates survival, overall colony health in spring will determine next course. I anticipate breeding from her.

I'm hoping to post a season summary at some point. Plenty of good things happened this year and I've been pleased with the results.

No mite-bombs, no absconds, no crashes - everyone made it to the first freeze.


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