# How would you have responded?



## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Wow- That's a good one. What I think with only a couple of years. I'm not sure where the folks are from and if bees would be capable of mating at their location. In our area when we get package bees we are usually several weeks to a month away from being able to produce mated queens locally.
I think if they were able to manage 50 to 100 lbs of bulk bees and actually hive them, they would be unable to produce a mated queen. The bees would abscond and they would blame you. That's if they just didn't abscond knowing the queen cell was not going to do anything. Swarming would an issue.

Outcome Likely: Epic Failure

I would have recommended buying packages with mated queens and splitting the costs and maybe doing a split later in the season if the hives developed enough to be successful.

That being said I know little to nothing about TBH management.

I initially missed the 12 hives to 50 to 100 pound math problem.


----------



## busy bee apiary (Aug 7, 2010)

Aahhhh shucks!!..............the three step plan is out.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

The caller is from which City and State?

Jean-Marc


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Where was the caller from?

Jean-Marc


----------



## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

It could work well with this type of tbh


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I have pretty much stopped selling queen cells to these types of operations, there just seems to be a high failure rate, even 100% failure. Don't know what they do but for one reason or another so often there is a very poor success. 

Then of course they query if it was my fault. But the cells from the same batch that I put in my hives were fine.

All the same if they want to experiment that's OK. However if they think they can do that with a dozen cells and they will get a dozen laying queens that is unlikely. And the issue with having some fail is that they are paying for the bees, which are also wasted if the queen fails. They may after the fact, find it would have been cheaper to get laying queens.


----------



## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Even moving queen cells (swarm cells) a few feet into a queen castle there is a danger of damaging the queen. Shipping one for any distance would increase this probability. Birds are going to get some of the queens on their mating flights. Some of the queens will not be mated well. 

Doesn't sound like a good return on the money by the time the losses are absorbed.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sell people what they want.


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

"What do you all think is going to happen?"

Mega swarms!


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

They would be collecting bees out of the trees for sure LOL!


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

jean-marc said:


> Where was the caller from?
> 
> Jean-Marc


 Ceredigion West Whales


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

"_ . . . and just don't have the bucks to buy packages._"

If they don't have the money to buy a package of bees, I would then gently suggest they should first put their efforts into getting better jobs.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>He had read an article by RO in the ABJ...

Who is "RO"?


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Probably Randy Oliver in regards to his latest submission where he made up a bunch of hives shaking bees infront


----------



## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Huge difference between a seasoned commercial guy shaking bees to make up hives and mating NUCS than a bunch of hobbyist newbees doing it. Personally it sounds like failure from the start. I wouldnt sell them the bees or queens, for possibility of being blamed for failure of club members.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Who is "RO"?


Seriously?


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

MTN-Bees said:


> Wow- That's a good one. Outcome Likely: Epic Failure


Agreed!!!!


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

jean-marc said:


> The caller is from which City and State?
> 
> Jean-Marc


Many reasons to ask this question....... If you ask for mating and drone reasons they are from an area where in a few weeks they might be ok.......... Bay area of northern California across from SF.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

mbc said:


> It could work well with this type of tbh
> View attachment 16210


Besides not selling them any bees this is the best answer posted....:thumbsup:


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

dsegrest said:


> Even moving queen cells (swarm cells) a few feet into a queen castle there is a danger of damaging the queen.
> 
> Doesn't sound like a good return on the money by the time the losses are absorbed.



One can move cells a long distance if they are the right age and handled carefully so I don't think this would be an issue. 

I do agree that the losses would be so great that any savings would be long overlooked when the final results become apparent.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Sell people what they want.


Sound like a quote from myself from a post a while back............ Seeing how the love of having people becoming marginally successful with bees is quite a bit stronger than my greed inclination I think that sometimes its best pass......... or give advice that the wannabee "beeicider" should highly consider.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I would like to have seen a video of them dividing the bulk bees.


----------



## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I think it will work if they install the bees into bee tight equipment and not open them until the cells have hatched. Not ideal for the inexperienced.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

shinbone said:


> "_ . . . and just don't have the bucks to buy packages._"
> 
> If they don't have the money to buy a package of bees, I would then gently suggest they should first put their efforts into getting better jobs.


In the portion of California where the majority of the people vote for the "hand out" party its a little bit of a stretch to expect this I'd say.

In the past I have hired people who grew up in "the projects" in the same area. Walking off in the middle of the day without letting anyone know because they had "something better to do" was not an uncommon occurrence with this crowd. Needless to say doing so does not generally lead to the pay scale you speak of. 

Kind of analogous in a way. I tried to explain there were about 100 reasons why the price of a cell is $5 and the price of a queen pushes over 20. Some people never do get the concept that whats "free" really isn't!


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Bulk bees work great for splits IF you know what you are doing.If not, there is a big learning curve!


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Honey-4-All said:


> Sound like a quote from myself from a post a while back............ Seeing how the love of having people becoming marginally successful with bees is quite a bit stronger than my greed inclination I think that sometimes its best pass......... or give advice that the wannabee "beeicider" should highly consider.


"A fool and his money will soon be parted." (which some are saying about the Flow Hive.) I'm just getting to the stage where everything is for sale and if someone wants to pay enough for what I have they can buy it. I sure wouldn't give it to them cheap.

If one is unsure what to do, passing on a sale is perfectly fine and understandable. One never knows the backlash that may occur from any sale. I sold perfectly good nucs to someone I considered a competent beekeeper once and it didn't turn out well for me. So ya never know.


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I sell hives, nucs and bulk bees sometimes. Warre hive, top bar,small cell, treatment free are big red flags to me.But hey , its their money to keep or spend as they please. I feel sorry for the bees sometimes.


----------



## georgiabees (Feb 2, 2010)

loggermike said:


> I sell hives, nucs and bulk bees sometimes. Warre hive, top bar,small cell, treatment free are big red flags to me.But hey , its their money to keep or spend as they please. I feel sorry for the bees sometimes.


TREATMENT FREE are my favorite customers, They come back every year sometimes twice.
My red flag concern is when they ask can I split them weekly or monthly? Here's your sign


----------



## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

For fun you should post that comment in the "treatment free" forum!! Hahahaha!


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Yes Phil I was thinking about the mating. Tell you what though, I sure would like to hive on the fun. Imagine shaking 8 pounds of bees for 1 queen cell. That would be a the upper limit on the 50-100 pound bulk order. This could be interesting for a seasoned beekeeper. Probably even more interesting to watch from a distance if they are a newbie. lol. I would not let it happen. A great risk of failure from people who probably do not know what they are getting into.

If they cannot afford packages then they cannot afford beekeeping. It is not a cheap venture to get into. As the buyer it will be a huge disappointment when the $30/lb times 50 pounds, so $1500 plus cells and any other pluses. That works out to more than a package. Less bees, minus laying queen. Somebody is off on their math. That works out to more than $100 per tbh nearly doomed for failure from the start. Expensive lesson. Unfortunately because of inexperience they may not even comprehend what happened. Probably will not forget that sting though. 

You probably would not give a kid a motorcycle capable of speeds of 200 mph for his first ride. Inexperience and risk weigh heavily against the new driver, even if he has the money to buy the motorcycle.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Honey-4-All said:


> He had read an article by RO in the ABJ and it was going to be as easy as 1,2,3... Or so he thought.
> I will leave my personal comments for later on this one....


Me too.


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

How are they going to anchor the bees to the hives w/o queens. A cell seems unlikely to hold them.


----------



## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Can you imagine the heat coming off 100# of bulk bees?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> How are they going to anchor the bees to the hives w/o queens. A cell seems unlikely to hold them.


Easy. Queen scent lure stick.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

If you decide to sell them the bees and cells and it doesn't work out....tell them to call RO.


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

"He had read an article by RO in the ABJ and it was going to be as easy as 1,2,3... Or so he thought."

But Randy used mated queens, not cells in this instance.

3 or 4 lbs on drawn comb with feed and a brand new caged queen works real well .Cells, not so much
Cells are great, but require different methods.


----------



## Beardedbee1 (Feb 10, 2015)

I'm reminded of the character off of the show " once upon a time" Rumplestilskin always says " everything comes with a price deary"


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

beemandan said:


> If you decide to sell them the bees and cells and it doesn't work out....tell them to call RO.


I do have a "RO" cell number listed in my phone but I think a little pre filter would save the ensuing hassle that would most certainly be sure to arise if I pass it along. Not going to happen.... 

Marks idea of using QMP would be a helpful move for someone bee-bent on self destruction. Nice suggestion... Hadn't thought about that even though we use 4 or 5 hundred pieces a year in the mating nucs. 

I think a blind paraplegic would have better odds of taking out the moon with a 22 than this crazy idea has of succeeding. Some ideas should just be set aside. Way aside!!!!!!!!


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Although I am not a fan of this proposal, a small addition MIGHT shift the odds enough to make it feasible:

100lbs of bees, 12 cells AND 12 frames of eggs.

With the right timing, a lucky person might be able to retrieve the frame that was eggs, now with cells, and split each hive the day the queen hatches(note previously mentioned timing issue). It would be crazy, but the frame of eggs greatly improves the odds of success.

Crazy Roland


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Roland said:


> It would be crazy, but the frame of eggs greatly improves the odds of success.
> 
> Crazy Roland


One issue is my #2. These were for top bar hives. Good look obtaining and transporting any brood......


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

True that, but a crazy person could put a 1/2 inch starter strip of foundation on 12 frames, and with 8 lbs of bees and a queen, I bet she would fill all cells in 3 days with eggs, and they would transport fine.


crazy roland


----------



## stevethebeeman (Mar 27, 2013)

Doubt it will work bees need brood to stick around. They will all leave. This plan will fail but I've only been doing this for 30 yrs I still haven't got it figured out. But I wish them luck.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

This bulk bees thing is new to me, how is it done? 

100 lb's of bees in one container? How does it work?


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

No. Lots of cages. Lots of ventilation. Real easy to cook if not very careful about getting too many in a cage.
Keith has pics somewhere of some nice cages .


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Cage? What's that, really just a bunch of some variant of packages?


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Also called bulk bee bins.
https://glaciercountyhoney.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/img_20130314_134855.jpg
That pic was from this website by the way:https://glaciercountyhoney.wordpress.com/category/beekeeping-pollination/
Lots of variations on the bulk bee cages.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks Loggermike, I've never seen that before.


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Bulk cages.......... Death traps for the inexperienced. 

As with many items in beekeeping knowing how many pounds one is able to put in a cage and keep them there safely is an art.

Baked bees in a bulk cage is not a pretty sight to see. Easy to toss a few grand in the waste pile from overdoing it or under protecting them when its warm.. in very short order may I add. 

Takes little effort to get them in a gooey heap really fast if it has been a warm spring day and you shake them after they have had a good while to forage on watery nectar. Full crops and crowding intersecting with poor circulation and high temps is one of the surest ways to put yourself on the direct path to Disasterville.


That being the case this is one of the best reasons why newbees and bulk cages should not make for intimate bed fellows....... Better to place a jar of nitro on your beau's lap while traversing a bad stagecoach road than hand a bulk cage over to someone who has not ridden shotgun on a few previous rides with them in tow....:shhhh:


----------



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

FYI OLDTIMER:

Some of Keiths...... both empty and full.

http://s148.photobucket.com/user/CNHoney/media/100_1502.jpg.html

http://s148.photobucket.com/user/CNHoney/media/100_0805.jpg.html


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks Honey4All I can see how they work now.

As you say, easy to see how something like that could go wrong pretty quickly, obviously for experienced players only. Best of my knowledge they are not used in my country at all.


----------



## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Tenbears said:


> Ceredigion West Whales





Honey-4-All said:


> Besides not selling them any bees this is the best answer posted....:thumbsup:


It's not unheard of in the UK for people to buy in queenless packages for stocking mini nucs, these bees would be shut in the mini nuc until the queencell hatches and they will have built a bit of comb by then so are not likely to abscond when they're released for the virgin to mate.


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Phil,Thats a very good explanation of the pitfalls of the bulk bee cage. I guarantee someone using these for the first time will end up cooking bees, unless they are very lucky.

mbc we did the same when we ran baby nucs. Just dipped a coffee cup full out of the bulk bee bin.Used a propane torch to melt a spot on the comb to stick the cell to.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"No bees for you!! No bees for you!! You!! Get out of my shop!!" the Bee Nazi. 

Sorry Jerry.


----------



## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

I've dealt with shaking 25# of bees into big screened boxes. I don't think you'd want any more than that. If you knock the cluster off the top of the box into a pile of bees on the bottom they can suffocate each other pretty quickly. Keep that big fan on them.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

This is a crazy phone call, Honey. Almost like the $70,000 investment call.
The wet bees will surely suffocate in such
a large batch. Better to call them in with lots of
extra boxes to haul off those bees. I suspect many
cooked bees if you try to pull this one off. Last week
I did a shook swarm combining 20 frames into one box. All
the wet bees barely moving just clumping together everywhere almost
lifeless. Thought they were all goner. But 3 hours later after
releasing the caged queen they are alright again. Will never do
that again. Not sure how many pounds of bees but enough to make
some nice frames of all new comb. Can't imagine what the 50-100 lbs
would be like in a pile.


----------

