# Insects feel pain?



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Insects feel pain ?

Yes , bees and other insects feel pain , according to Gilberto Xavier physiologist , researcher at USP , " São Paulo University " :
"Insects have similar to nerve endings that we humans have. Therefore , it is reasonable to assume they have some sort of sensory perception equivalent to what we call pain. In addition , the animal is able to make an avoidance learning , moving away from something that causes you discomfort . " The insects have converged nerve receptors - their nerve endings are in the skin and also have different locking mechanisms pain and more efficient than human . Through these mechanisms , a cheap continues to walk even after having a leg torn off. If you have locking mechanisms of pain , it is because they feel pain.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Yeah, I hate it when I put the box's back together and someone's head and thorax is stickingout 


Crazy when you uncap some drones and no one moves a lick. Pretty lifeless until they actually hatch. If these guys were writhing and screaming when mite checks were done, I believe there would be less checks being performed. 

But even larva pulsate in the jelly, funny more mature pupa don't show more signs of life.
Poor drones, they don't get no love. And even if they do..they still die










DO small hive beatles and mites feel pain?

There are a lot of folks that sure hope so :waiting:


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## cryptobrian (Jan 22, 2012)

According to experts on Reddit:

"No".


I suppose I'm feeling cheeky. Spend a few minutes on google, I'm sure you'll find many contrary positions, even within the scientific community. The answer is complicated it seems and plenty of experts will advise that it takes a lot more than some nerve endings to equal perception of pain. The users on this forum won't settle the question (though that won't keep us all from trying). ;-)

The pressing question then is ... so what? What does the answer, either way, mean to you?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

cryptobrian said:


> The pressing question then is ... so what? What does the answer, either way, mean to you?


Firstly because for me it is important to know if the bees feel pain because it will help me to better understand their behavior. I can call this intellectual curiosity or rationality.

Secondly because as most human beings on this planet I have a thing called empathy. Put myself in the place of another , even if it is an insect . I can call it humanism.

Thirdly, because the best known of my bees , and to be more human / empathetic with them according to their needs, I can come to have better harvests . This reason I can call professionalism.

I hope I have been clear in the exposition of these simple ideas .


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

How about emotions? I've seen a wide range first hand, especially with the queen rearing. I'm not talking about temperament or behavior.

Take a young queen out of her hive that hatched out in that hive (never been handled) and she'll be frightened.

Not all of them, I'd say about 30%. Mark her and put her back and she'll look for a 'consoling feeding' from nurse bees immediatly.

Virgins hatched out in an incubator and previously handled usually don't show that behavior when handled again at around 3 weeks. 



Some young queens are bold and confident, some are timid and submissive. But that frightened/consoling behavior is surprising to see. I've said before, I can tell a lot about the temperment of a future hive by the way the virgin queen acted when handled soon after hatching.
If I have a queen that stings me as a hatchling while marking she is immediatly pinched. That rarely happens, but I had a whole batch (From a line I won't mention)that got culled soon after hatching. My experience has shown me those aggressive virgin queens, if placed, will develop into colonies that are no fun to work.

Marked and getting fed by one bee, new spot getting checked out by another










More consoling










Satisfied she's not hurt










Getting back to work











Heres a virign queen just hatched out of the incubator eating a drop of honey off my finger. Not from fear,they are ravenous as soon as they hatch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i50Yf8vVGWY


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I've collected a few partially paralyzed bees from the landing board, some disease in which the front legs work but the mid don't at all and the hind legs only partly. I've been known to put a drop of honey on a toothpick to feed them, and they take it eagerly. And then I dispatch them as quickly as I can. 

'Cause bees are not just bugs.

Is it empathy that made this one worker bee feed a drone that had been kicked out of the hive? I get the impression not all the workers get the memo at the same time. Some are in eviction mode, others are still soft touches for a beggar. Maybe they know which ones they share a dad with? It was kinda funny to watch.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Who knows? But think about what is says about us and our lives that we have the time and energy to even consider such a question.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

In the tree of life how many branches should separate us from this or that species so that these issues no longer make sense ? In my opinion find out about every living thing feels pain is so natural to seek to know , for example , what is the diet of this and that animal or insect . Or should there be issues taboos in science ?

What can we say to land a vehicle on a small asteroid millions of Kms of our planet?
What they tell about us?
Among many things one thing to say surely , we're curious and want to know the best and deeply as possible around us .

The problems of consciousness comes next , if they come , and only for some. And you know who am I referring to? Simply open youtube and see what some are doing with bees in the outside world , but more in some places and more in some continents . Just some!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There's nothing wrong with asking the question and seeking an answer. How do you think it will change how you manage/handle your bees and equipment?

I knew a person who cried every time they put a hive back together because bees were getting crushed.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

"*More than honey*" is a film that shows some of the things I do not, nor will I do with my bees. 

This is not to crush some bees , is much more than that !
You know the movie?

The trailer is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh_IRrBeu-0


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## Bal (Aug 11, 2014)

That movie is an eye opener. I cried watching how the bees were processed while doing splits and harvesting honey. Poor things


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## Kidbeeyoz (May 8, 2013)

Eduardo, do you have a reference so we can look up the research article?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> In addition , the animal is able to make an avoidance learning , moving away from something that causes you discomfort .


Once in a BeeNova -cource, supervised by Professor Bernd Grünewald, who has been studying the cellular basics of bees memory, we tried and somewhat succeeded in just couple of hours to teach bees. (different colours and scents coding sugar solutions and water, the bees learned to stick out their tongue according to colours and scents with sugar, if I remember correctly.)

(http://www.beenova.org/)
( http://en.institut-fuer-bienenkunde.de/cv-bg.aspx)


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Lauri said:


> Take a young queen out of her hive that hatched out in that hive (never been handled) and she'll be frightened.
> Not all of them, I'd say about 30%.
> Virgins hatched out in an incubator and previously handled usually don't show that behavior when handled.


Are you sure the virgins you took from hive were of the same age as from the incubator?


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

Lauri said:


> Take a young queen out of her hive that hatched out in that hive (never been handled) and she'll be frightened.
> 
> Not all of them, I'd say about 30%. Mark her and put her back and she'll look for a 'consoling feeding' from nurse bees immediatly.
> 
> Virgins hatched out in an incubator and previously handled usually don't show that behavior when handled.


A slightly different angle is thought through in this piece from "The Behaviour of Bees and of Bee-keepers by H.J.Wadey". 1948.




> Pulled Virgins​
> The title may puzzle some readers as it did the writer when he first encountered the term. Visions of frightened nuns being dragged around by cannibals, or of statues of female saints being torn from their niches by iconoclastic puritans soon fade when the simple explanation is given, The name is a not very happy description of a queen bee whose early experience of life has been a trifle abnormal, but it is shorter than any truly descriptive term that could easily be found.
> 
> A pulled virgin ia a young queen that emerged from her cell after it had been removed (hence "pulled") from the hive. She did not bite her way out of the cell into the rush and bustle of the hive life. She has never played hide-and-seek of life and death over the combs with her sisters or flirted round the corner with her burly half-brothers. She has never taken a flight in the sunshine and memorised the position and general appearance of a hive. She probably crawled out of her cell into the gloomy and malodorous solitude of a matchbox, and made her first meal from a smear of honey found on the side of the box and this honey, strange though it's taste, she eagerly lapped up. She never saw a living creature for long hours, perhaps days of restless pacing up and down her narrow prison. Soft-hearted readers may now swallow the lump that was beginning to rise in their throats, brush away the tears of sympathy, and consider the virgin that was "pulled" and those that only pushed their own way out of the cell into the maelstrom of hideous hatred that is the common lot of the new-born queen. Her own mother would have stabbed her in the cradle. Her sisters would only have been thwarted by the ever watchful workers in their efforts to destroy her whilst a helpless white mummy-like creature. They would have squatted, tyrembling, trumpeting their defiance as they awaited her emergence from the cell. The human hand that removed the "ripe" cell probably saved her life, for in nature it is the lot of far more queens to be killed in battle than to reign.
> ...


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

This is really anthropomorphic error. We are always attributing human emotions to the animals we keep and work with.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Insects feel pain ?


Pain is a safety and survival mechanism. The only purpose of feeling pain is to avoid injury so...it seems logical that all animals feel pain. Also, that is the purpose of "fear" as well. You will note that many diabetics lose feeling in their feet and legs and will often have injuries, cuts, burns and bruises that they are not aware even aware of. They often develop severe infections because of these untended injuries. Pain is probably a requirement for survival of any animal species.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> "*More than honey*" is a film that shows some of the things I do not, nor will I do with my bees.
> 
> This is not to crush some bees , is much more than that !
> You know the movie?
> ...


I saw this the other day. It's pretty well done, but at times intentionally casts the beekeepers in a bad light without really explaining the why. 

Is the automated frame scraper and splitting shown better or worse than letting an entire hive or apiary suffer and die from varroa and viruses in an attempt to produce "survivor stock"?

A film about commercial poultry processing vs backyard chickens would be equally shocking for many people. Most people have no real idea where their food comes from


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Kidbeeyoz said:


> Eduardo, do you have a reference so we can look up the research article?


Of course: http://mundoestranho.abril.com.br/materia/os-insetos-sentem-dor (portuguese language). It is not a scientific article , is a popular science article .

About the author: holds a degree in Biological Sciences from the University of São Paulo (1978 ) , MSc (1981 ) and doctorate (1985 ) Psychobiology , Federal University of São Paulo (1985 ) . Held internships Postdoctoral at the Institute of Psychiatry, University of London, University of Aarhus , Denmark , and University College London . In 1999 , he obtained the title of Lecturer , University of São Paulo . He is currently Associate Professor 3 University of São Paulo . He has experience in nervous physiology and develops research in Learning , Memory and Attention .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> "*More than honey*" is a film that shows some of the things I do not, nor will I do with my bees.
> 
> This is not to crush some bees , is much more than that !
> You know the movie?
> ...


Sure, I've seen it. Three times, I think. Lots of things I don't do with my bees too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Marysia2 said:


> Pain is a safety and survival mechanism. The only purpose of feeling pain is to avoid injury so...it seems logical that all animals feel pain. Also, that is the purpose of "fear" as well. You will note that many diabetics lose feeling in their feet and legs and will often have injuries, cuts, burns and bruises that they are not aware even aware of. They often develop severe infections because of these untended injuries. Pain is probably a requirement for survival of any animal species.


Then wouldn't you expect that when a bee stings that they would feel pain and somehow exhibit that feeling of pain? I have never heard a bee scream. If my modified sex organ was pulled out of my body I'd scream for sure.

When a queen's wing is clipped, does she feel the pain? Has anyone seen any exhibition of pain when doing that? Partially crushed bees that can still move show no pain that I can see.

What does a bee cringing from pain look like? They don't retract their bodies in any discernible way, from my observations. I don't know if that means that bees don't feel pain, but how do they exhibit that feeling of pain?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If my modified sex organ was pulled out of my body I'd scream for sure.


Interesting. What have you had done to it?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

zhiv9 said:


> This is really anthropomorphic error. We are always attributing human emotions to the animals we keep and work with.


For us not to run the risk of anthropomorphizing it's necessary clarify about that matter that pain perception should be different in insects of pain perception in men . The Brazilian investigator firm on this point : ". Only you can not say that this pain is the same as ours , since men have a different kind of awareness of the insect 's sensory structures of these small animals are distributed in various parts of their skeleton . the insects also have different locking mechanisms of pain and more efficient than human . Through these mechanisms , a cheap continues to walk even after having a leg torn off. Something similar to what happens to a soldier who keeps fighting in the heat of battle and only later realize that he was wounded . "


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>If my modified sex organ was pulled out of my body I'd scream for sure.
>Interesting. What have you had done to it?

Well, Mark, you walked right into that one...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm betting on a Hello Kitty tattoo.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> >>If my modified sex organ was pulled out of my body I'd scream for sure.
> >Interesting. What have you had done to it?
> 
> Well, Mark, you walked right into that one...


Hahaha!! :lpf::lpf:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't have a stinger, do you?

That's what a stinger is a modified sex organ. I don't get where you all are coming from.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Then wouldn't you expect that when a bee stings that they would feel pain and somehow exhibit that feeling of pain? I have never heard a bee scream.


Considering that they don't have vocal chords, I'm not surprised, but apparently you are. 



> Partially crushed bees that can still move show no pain that I can see.?


Many injured or sick animals will not "show" either so as to hide their vulnerability. People can have constant, chronic pain from arthritis and not walk around with a sign on saying, "I'm wearing this because Mark assumes that he would know when a creature is in pain but actually...he wouldn't."


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> I'm betting on a Hello Kitty tattoo.


Huh?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Marysia2 said:


> Considering that they don't have vocal chords, I'm not surprised, but apparently you are.
> 
> 
> 
> Many injured or sick animals will not "show" either so as to hide their vulnerability. People can have constant, chronic pain from arthritis and not walk around with a sign on saying, "I'm wearing this because Mark assumes that he would know when a creature is in pain but actually...he wouldn't."


Gee Marysia, did I touch a nerve?


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't have a stinger, do you?


You said you had a modified sex organ: "If my modified sex organ was pulled out of my body..." Some people are interested in knowing what you did to it. Not me...I'll pass, thanks.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Perhaps Mark's fly is unzipped and he is unaware of it?  
Just kidding Mark! I'll digress now....


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Gee Marysia, did I touch a nerve?


Nah, you're a just another troll and I wouldn't bother to reply to you but I couldn't resist pointing out how silly and illogical your post was. Didn't you get tossed out of Solomon's Treatment Free Group on FB for this same kind of nonsense?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ouch, now that hurts. 

No, actually I left on my own. I was not tossed.

Just because I didn't express myself well on the subject of pain about whether insects feel it or not I don't see why you feel a need to throw your feces at me. What did I do to you?

I know how humans express pain. I also know how people can live w/ intense pain and not show it. Having a son w/an amputated leg who is in constant pain. Were you to see him in trousers you would not know. But I can tell you for sure that when he was blown off his feet by an ied his pain was quite evident to those around him. I have never seen anything like that with a honeybee. Have you? What does it look like?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So just because I can't tell that a bee is in pain that doesn't mean they aren't. I would just like someone to show me or tell me what that would look like.

Wanna see that as trolling go ahead.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> But think about what is says about us and our lives that we have the time and energy to even consider such a question.


 

In my opinion, understanding the behavior & body language of a species..IE, bees, farm animals, wild game, is key to humans successful management, training or harvest. Not only will it make you more successful in your endeavors, it can keep you from getting hurt.

Close observation & scrutiny is a good way to gain that perspective.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Marysia2 said:


> You said you had a modified sex organ: "If my modified sex organ was pulled out of my body..." Some people are interested in knowing what you did to it. Not me...I'll pass, thanks.


Alright, how about, "If I were an insect and my ..." Is that better?


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

I've never pulled the leg off of a bee to see what would happen but I imagine that it would hurt them thus they must feel some form of pain. As for clipping a wing...not sure those have nerve endings so it'd be much like cutting ones hair. I've watched a bee administer to a sqwuished bee so I wonder if besides guards, gravediggers and nurses they have EMT's too? That may be a little over the top.  Just my thoughts and observations.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Sorry, Mark. I often forget that some folks don't share my sense of humor. Or maybe don't have one.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Are you sure the virgins you took from hive were of the same age as from the incubator?


For the most part, yes. I handle them all at about 3 weeks after they have been mated and have started laying. Some get marked then, if they were resulting from a placed cell. They are handled for the first time at that point. 

The others got marked as virgins and then handled again at 3 weeks. 

That's when I notice an emotional difference in some of the young queens, when they are picked up for the first time around 3 weeks.

As far as behavior in the newly hatched virgins out of the incubator, some are confident and strong on my hand, some are blurry eyed and calm. Usually the entire batch will have the same like behavior.

Direct introducing them into hives, a 2-3 day old virgin that has had a chance to eat, gain strength and harden off a bit will strut right out onto the frames with confidence. A calm virgin will stay stone still while getting inspected and sometimes curl her abdomen up in a submissive behavior until she has been accepted without hostility.

One thing they don't do, is dive head first into a cell and eat. They are well fed in the incubator.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Ouch, now that hurts.


Gee, I wouldn't have known that 'cause, you know, you didn't scream or cringe.



> I don't see why you feel a need to throw your feces at me. What did I do to you?


You have a well-known and obvious habit of trying to bait people into long and ridiculous arguments.

I expressed my opinion about why I think all animals must feel pain as a means of species survival. Animals that don't feel pain would die fairly early in their life cycle. A gazelle that doesn't try to run when it feels a lion's claws on its back obviously will not survive.

That's as far as *my* point went. 



> I would just like someone to show me or tell me what that would look like.


Google it...I'm sure there's something out there that will satisfy your curiosity.


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## cryptobrian (Jan 22, 2012)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Firstly because for me it is important to know if the bees feel pain because it will help me to better understand their behavior. I can call this intellectual curiosity or rationality.
> 
> Secondly because as most human beings on this planet I have a thing called empathy. Put myself in the place of another , even if it is an insect . I can call it humanism.
> 
> ...


So this answers the question of why you are asking. But, what are doing with your improved understanding? Because, intellectual curiosity is great. But as you can see, this discussion will go in circles on a forum like this with no resolution. You'll probably even become less informed than you were from the start (see: http://www.cartalk.com/content/andy-scale-0).

So, be specific. You began the conversation with reference to suggest that insects feel pain. I assume that's your bias then and so let's just assume they feel pain. Now, armed with empathy for the pain felt by the honeybee, how will your harvests improve? How will your management change? What specifically will you do differently now? What are your ideas on pain-free honeybee management for improved harvests?


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## cryptobrian (Jan 22, 2012)

Marysia2 said:


> A gazelle that doesn't try to run when it feels a lion's claws on its back obviously will not survive.


I gazelle that only tries to run once it feels a lion's claws on its back is already dead.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Marysia2 said:


> Nah, you're a just another troll and I wouldn't bother to reply


Sqcrk is certainly not a troll. If you look around here just a little bit before passing judgement you will see that he is one of the most helpful people around.

Unless by "troll" you mean anyone who disagrees with you - in which case carry on then.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

A man once told me that dogs don't feel pain... I was much younger then, and already knew that wasn't true. Since then I have been surprised by scientists, who seem intelligent, denying evidence that animals think, or plan, communicate, or have emotions.... These same scientists will say that human beings are animals, and I agree... we are mammals. Warm blooded, live bearing, omnivorous animals... We think, therefore it can not be said that animals don't think. We have language so it can not be said that animals don't. The claims that they don't seem to originate with people who should know better, but are in some sort of denial so that they can continue doing things that their morality would otherwise oppose.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

I've never pulled the leg off of a bee to see what would happen but I imagine that it would hurt them thus they must feel some form of pain. As for clipping a wing...not sure those have nerve endings so it'd be much like cutting ones hair. I've watched a bee administer to a sqwuished bee so I wonder if besides guards, gravediggers and nurses they have EMT's too? That may be a little over the top.  Just my thoughts and observations.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Santa Caras said:


> I've never pulled the leg off of a bee to see what would happen but I imagine that it would hurt them thus they must feel some form of pain.


I guess if you think something is so, then it must be so. Lots of people do that every day.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Marysia2 said:


> I expressed my opinion about why I think all animals must feel pain as a means of species survival. Animals that don't feel pain would die fairly early in their life cycle. A gazelle that doesn't try to run when it feels a lion's claws on its back obviously will not survive.


And since insects are animal they too must feel pain? Is that your point? I don't see how your logic necessarily holds water.

I ask questions and make statements too. If you see that as baiting then that says something about you. You assume that I have ulterior motives. Assume all you want. That is not my intention. And if you see it as bait, don't you have the self control to not respond?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cryptobrian said:


> I gazelle that only tries to run once it feels a lion's claws on its back is already dead.


:thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

David LaFerney said:


> Sqcrk is certainly not a troll. If you look around here just a little bit before passing judgement you will see that he is one of the most helpful people around.
> 
> Unless by "troll" you mean anyone who disagrees with you - in which case carry on then.


 Thanks Mom.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

In the case of aquarium fish, I once read that they enjoy having water change outs... that one must do this for the health of fish. The person who said was keeping cichlids, I was keeping some too... I noticed that in their disputes they would pop open their gill plates and wiggle at each other. The person who said they loved water change outs said that they would do the same thing when he changed their water, and that it meant they were happy. Fish will go into shock if you dump them from water at one temperature to water of another temperature as little as ten degrees different. What would temperature difference would cause a human to go into shock... instantly. Lets say that you were in 100 degrees, and you fell into water that was say 40 degrees. That would about do it. I concluded that water changes did not make the fish happy, it made them "scream" in pain.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

David LaFerney said:


> Sqcrk is certainly not a troll. If you look around here just a little bit before passing judgement you will see that he is one of the most helpful people around. Unless by "troll" you mean anyone who disagrees with you - in which case carry on then.


So you are saying that he *was* disagreeing with me, and yet he says he just wanted a a photo or description of a bee displaying pain (because he's never seen one). I have seen Mark in action in other places (i.e. the Treatment Free FB group for one) so perhaps I have a different point of view than you. At any rate, I expect that Mark can defend himself. No need for his big brother to come to his rescue.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Marysia2 said:


> I expressed my opinion about why I think all animals must feel pain as a means of species survival. Animals that don't feel pain would die fairly early in their life cycle. A gazelle that doesn't try to run when it feels a lion's claws on its back obviously will not survive.


That is ridicules. Gazelles, or any other animal, run on instinct. They do not need to feel the "pain" from a lion's claw to learn to run.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Phoebee;1187327
'Cause bees are not just bugs.
Is it empathy that made this one worker bee feed a drone that had been kicked out of the hive? I get the impression not all the workers get the memo at the same time. Some are in eviction mode said:


> They don't share a dad with any of the drones. They do share a grandad.
> 
> An article in American Bee Journal this month claims there is nepotism among the bees from the same father and that they seem to know who their full (super) sisters are.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

I have also kept ferrets... They love to play in bags, and boots and whatnot... enclosed places. One time a ferret I had went into this bag, so, I picked the bag up, holding the top shot shook it, and let the ferret out. He responded by sticking his tail straight up in the air, hopping in these cute little circles and chirping... I thought he was happy.... If you see a ferret doing this, never assume it is happy... it is not... it wants to eat your eyeballs. Humans are notoriously bad at interpreting the body language of other animals.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Marysia2 said:


> So you are saying that he *was* disagreeing with me, and yet he says he just wanted a a photo or description of a bee displaying pain (because he's never seen one). I have seen Mark in action in other places (i.e. the Treatment Free FB group for one) so perhaps I have a different point of view than you. At any rate, I expect that Mark can defend himself. No need for his big brother to come to his rescue.


You see me as the enemy to begin with so anything I say something you are all ready to see what I say through that lens. Were I a troll would I be so out in the open, real, and accessible Marysia2? If that is your real name? I don't hide under a bridge. My name and contact info is easily accessed. Call me if you wish, others have.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> And since insects are animal they too must feel pain?


I never used the word "must"; I said, "...it seems logical that all animals feel pain." Reading comprehension and retention is a valuable skill.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay, my mistake. Following your logic then, do bees feel pain?


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Call me if you wish, others have.


What have they called you?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

wcnewby said:


> In the case of aquarium fish, I once read that they enjoy having water change outs... that one must do this for the health of fish. The person who said was keeping cichlids, I was keeping some too... I noticed that in their disputes they would pop open their gill plates and wiggle at each other. The person who said they loved water change outs said that they would do the same thing when he changed their water, and that it meant they were happy. Fish will go into shock if you dump them from water at one temperature to water of another temperature as little as ten degrees different. What would temperature difference would cause a human to go into shock... instantly. Lets say that you were in 100 degrees, and you fell into water that was say 40 degrees. That would about do it. I concluded that water changes did not make the fish happy, it made them "scream" in pain.


I kept a saltwater reef tank for 15 years. The reason that you do water change outs is to reduce the nutrient load so the fish are not poisoned by their own waste products (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). It has nothing to do with fish happiness. If the water in your tank has a nitrate concentration of 10 mg/L and you change out half of the water, the nitrate concentration will be lowered to 5 mg/L. 

As far as temperature differential, 10 degrees is extreme and you want to keep it to less than 2 degrees.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Okay, my mistake. Following your logic then, do bees feel pain?


I already explained what I believe is the *purpose* of pain: to help with the survival of a species, so consequently it would *seem* to be in the best interest of a species to *feel* pain. 

Perhaps we can get off this endless loop by you explaining what you think is the purpose of pain. Then you can explain why a bee probably does or does not feel pain.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

cryptobrian said:


> So, be specific. You began the conversation with reference to suggest that insects feel pain. I assume that's your bias then and so let's just assume they feel pain. Now, armed with empathy for the pain felt by the honeybee, how will your harvests improve? How will your management change? What specifically will you do differently now? What are your ideas on pain-free honeybee management for improved harvests?


When I started this post was far from imagining acceding to and passionate debate that he would raise .

When I opened this issue was not with the intention of implicitly say that I would change the way I manage my hives on this knowledge . I 've smashed many bees and I am sure that I will continue to do, because it is inevitable .

However in the future , as I did in the past , I have increasingly careful to avoid killing bees . One example I can give of this intention involves melting wax away from my apiaries or other , to prevent bees attracted by the smell there will die. Another point is to isolate the best my honey extraction unit to avoid that attracted bees will die there . Another point is the use of sponges dedicated to the closing hives , with air intake to prevent bees dying during transhumance . Another point is to leave enough honey in the nest so that my bees do not starve in the winter or spring entry . And I could go on ... but it all boils down to this: my bees are mine but that does not give me the right to kill them intentionally, or even negligently, using practices that I know they will very likely cause massive damage and in a massive way . My problem , as you can see , is not to kill a bee here and there during visits to apiaries .

As I mentioned behind, the documentary " More than honey" illustrates bee management practices that shocked me. Perhaps these practices arise because some of us think that between us and other living things on the planet are more than two branches away from the tree of life, we can use them , discard them , mistreating them, in a massive way and repeatedly because they do not feel pain, because they do not express the pain and discomfort of an intelligible form for us.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't have a stinger, do you?
> 
> That's what a stinger is a modified sex organ. I don't get where you all are coming from.


Actually I do have a stinger and it was modified


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Marysia2 said:


> So you are saying that he *was* disagreeing with me...No need for his big brother to come to his rescue.


It doesn't matter if he was disagreeing with you or not "you're a just another troll and I wouldn't bother to reply to you" is not civil. Personal attacks and name calling such as this are one way that *actual trolls* destroy a perfectly good discussion so lets just say that I am doing my small part to defend the forum environment from polluters.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Perhaps this thread should be retitled. "do beekeepers feel pain?"


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Marysia2 said:


> I already explained what I believe is the *purpose* of pain: to help with the survival of a species, so consequently it would *seem* to be in the best interest of a species to *feel* pain.


Don't you think that the nature of a self preservation response (pain, fear etc) might be different in a colony insect where the vast majority of individuals will never reproduce - and will in fact sacrifice themselves (apparently without fear) in defense of the colony organism, or literally work themselves to death in a few weeks?

Geneticist claim that they can prove that at one time there were only a few hundred proto-humans. *Each of us requires a huge investment* in time and resources to reach reproductive age, and we (historically) have an extremely low successful reproduction rate. 

I would expect that self preservation traits would be somewhat proportional to the evolutionary value of the individuals to species preservation. In other words every single human individual needed to have an highly developed self preservation instinct if the human species were to survive - probably not so much for worker bees.

None of this is an argument against respect and compassion - but it* is* an argument against anthropomorphism.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Besides the scientific evidence that states that insects have similar nerve endings as humans, consider the observations we all have made amongst the bees. If you touch them, they obviously feel, because they either get out of the way or become defensive. If they fly through smoke, sometimes they will just stop flying and find a spot to "sit" until the smoke clears. They run away from flames. And on and on and on...
Some would say that these reactions are simply due to sensory abilities reacting to environmental stimuli.....but, isn't pain also a reaction to stimuli? 
On animals thinking and reasoning.....I say most certainly they do! Some more than others due to higher order. I know because I have to deal with them day in and day out. 
On Mark being a troll....neh! I've actually gained some pretty good advice from him on other threads and have put it into practice. I'm glad he is on here. :gh:
Anyways....back to bugs and pain...


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> I kept a saltwater reef tank for 15 years. The reason that you do water change outs is to reduce the nutrient load so the fish are not poisoned by their own waste products (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). It has nothing to do with fish happiness. If the water in your tank has a nitrate concentration of 10 mg/L and you change out half of the water, the nitrate concentration will be lowered to 5 mg/L.
> 
> As far as temperature differential, 10 degrees is extreme and you want to keep it to less than 2 degrees.


I have also kept a reef aquarium... a 180 gallon one set up so that I wouldn't have to feed it... I used herbivorous fish and inverts. I used biological filtration, a protein skimmer, ozone, mechanical filtration, and a calcium reactor to maintain my water purity. I never did a changeout... I waited until my water and biological elements were mature enough to handle the nutrient load before I added fish.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> I would expect that self preservation traits would be somewhat proportional to the evolutionary value of the individuals to species preservation. In other words every single human individual needed to have an highly developed self preservation instinct if the human species were to survive - probably not so much for worker bees.


Well put David.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Marysia2 said:


> Pain is a safety and survival mechanism. The only purpose of feeling pain is to avoid injury so...it seems logical that all animals feel pain. Also, that is the purpose of "fear" as well. You will note that many diabetics lose feeling in their feet and legs and will often have injuries, cuts, burns and bruises that they are not aware even aware of. They often develop severe infections because of these untended injuries. Pain is probably a requirement for survival of any animal species.


Talking with another beekeeper recently, she said something I had not thought of, but which I now think is probably true: worker bees are fearless. They're not so much brave as they don't seem capable of being afraid. This, she lamented, takes a terrible toll on them. 

But queens do, quite obviously, show behavior consistent with fear.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Phoebee said:


> But queens do, quite obviously, show behavior consistent with fear.


On queens fainting, see attached thread: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-270699.html


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

David LaFerney said:


> It doesn't matter if he was disagreeing with you or not "you're a just another troll and I wouldn't bother to reply to you" is not civil. Personal attacks and name calling such as this are one way that *actual trolls* destroy a perfectly good discussion so lets just say that I am doing my small part to defend the forum environment from polluters.


You are correct. I had a visceral reaction based on previous encounters and I replied hastily. I apologize to anyone offended.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

And, according to the bee genome project, honey bees show vertebrate levels of cognitive ability exemplified by their ability to communicate the location of nectar and pollen, their maze solving ability, their memory.... after all that, it seems silly to say that they don't feel pain. Furthermore, it becomes easier to understand their actions when you assume that they are thinking creatures... Ie, if they do something you don't like, you are better off figuring out why than tearing their stuff apart and hoping they wont do it again.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Phoebee said:


> But queens do, quite obviously, show behavior consistent with fear.


I'd add that apparent 'fear' in queens is probably due to a level of insecurity. 
Insecurity leads to fear..then possible reactions like running or hiding. Never defensive, but always with self preservation in mind.

Those more mature queens that have experience with being exposed will just keep right on laying with no reaction, no worries.

Do you see her? This young queens is still as a stone when exposed, hiding under a blanket of bees.



















Insecurity in workers, as stated, has a different, defensive result. Buzzing, Warnings, flying, butting and lastly, stinging. Preservation of the entire colony is the only thing on their mind.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

TalonRedding said:


> On queens fainting, see attached thread:
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-270699.html


I had a queen "play possum" just about a month ago. A week later we found her alive and well and running around the hive in terror, for good reason. She had quit laying without raising winter bees and the colony had shrunk to unsurvivable levels. When she played dead we'd committed ourselves to combining her colony with a frisky little nuc we'd been raising.

She's drowning her sorrows in a jar of rum now.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

David LaFerney said:


> "...will in fact sacrifice themselves (apparently without fear) in defense of the colony organism, or literally work themselves to death in a few weeks?"


That would require that a bee understands the concept of "sacrifice" and therefore chooses to commit suicide for the good of the colony; it would also require that she understands that stinging an enemy will result in her death. Or that a drone is willing to "sacrifice" all just for one and only one act of intercourse. I think a lot of drones would say, "Uh, thanks, I'll just remain a bachelor for whatever time is left to me." Personally, I don't believe bees make a choice - those would seem to be "instincts" to me.

The original question was, "Do bees feel pain?" I believe they do simply because it's in their best interest to feel pain, as it is for all animals...so they can avoid the situations that would result in death. It's simply a physical reaction.

Assigning _emotions_ to insects would be anthropomorphism, although I happen to believe that higher life forms, mammals for instance, do have emotions.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> But queens do, quite obviously, show behavior consistent with fear.


Fear is an emotion, pain is not. Pain is a physical reaction. I'm inclined to think that in lower life forms, like insects, that instincts drive most behavior.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Marysia2 said:


> That would require that a bee understands the concept of "sacrifice" and therefore chooses to commit suicide for the good of the colony; it would also require that she understands that stinging an enemy will result in her death. Or that a drone is willing to "sacrifice" all just for one and only one act of intercourse. I think a lot of drones would say, "Uh, thanks, I'll just remain a bachelor for whatever time is left to me." Personally, I don't believe bees make a choice - those would seem to be "instincts" to me.
> 
> The original question was, "Do bees feel pain?" I believe they do simply because it's in their best interest to feel pain, as it is for all animals...so they can avoid the situations that would result in death. It's simply a physical reaction.
> 
> Assigning _emotions_ to insects would be anthropomorphism, although I happen to believe that higher life forms, mammals for instance, do have emotions.


There's a whole philosophical range here: humans like to anthropomorphize, but usually lack any way to prove that other animals have the same feelings we do. This then brings up the equally unprovable notion that they _don't_ have these feelings. A lot of people say that animals just have instincts. But there are layers even below that: reflexes. And what we call "instinct" is probably a broad grey area of mechanisms between reflex and high-level philosophizing on the human level. 

Bees don't sit around having the kind of discussion we're having. Of this we can be pretty sure. And the brain power needed to rationalize an act of self-sacrifice needed for the overall good of the hive is something we can be pretty sure bees don't have time for. But I'd say it is likely that bees do have something in common with us and birds and lizards: an ability to get mad. Insect brains are pretty different from vertebrate brains, but we can spot behavior that looks angry, and bees clearly do it, so I'll go out on a limb here. While humans do have high cognitive function that lizards lack, it would appear that our emotion of rage, at least, operates in a primitive area in the brain that herptiles have, that also goes active when they're angry. In vertebrates, this area triggers hormone release that lights us up for action. Anger is our inner lizard coming to the surface.

What this feels like to a bee is something we can't know, but it would appear likely that there are certain behavioral switches that can be thrown in the bee brain that function very much like higher animals experience: triggering the behavior we recognize as anger and defensiveness. Likely there is a long evolutionary thread to this sometimes useful, sometimes suicidal mechanism.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Marysia2 said:


> The original question was, "Do bees feel pain?" I believe they do simply because it's in their best interest to feel pain, as it is for all animals...so they can avoid the situations that would result in death. It's simply a physical reaction.
> Assigning _emotions_ to insects would be anthropomorphism, although I happen to believe that higher life forms, mammals for instance, do have emotions.


I fully agree with you.
Pain is a basic nervous reaction to an external stimulus ( or even an interior stimulus : proprioception ) .

If mammals have emotions ? Yes they have because they have a limbic system in the brain that allows them to process basic emotions .

If the most mammals have feelings ? Most probably not because they have not the brain structure that allows them to process feelings , i.e. , the neocortex.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Why do people assume that our feelings are the only feelings that exist... I agree, you do need human brain parts, a neocortex, to have human feelings... conversely, and to keep this related to the discussion, you would have to have bee brain parts to understand bee feelings. On top of that our emotions are all human based, we project them on animals, and that is anthropomorphism... to attribute human emotions to animals. It is not anthropomorphism to say that animals have feelings, it is to say they have human feelings though....

We can agree that most all living creatures do not want to die... or, they want to survive.... they want.... this requires thought. We can agree that they fear... fear what? Death? yes... that is the opposite of survival... to be avoided... therefore, they must understand that they live, and that they can die. Want and fear are both human things.... or are they? I believe they are words that describe things, or conditions that can be applied to non human things without committing the A word. There is evidence that this is true for anyone who has eyes and some time for using them.

Bees want to be warmer and they cause heat, they stop heating when they reach a temperature... fairly consistent one too... so, do they have thermometers? If they weren't uncomfortable being to warm or too cold, why would they want to change the temperature? If they understood that the brood must be warmer or cooler, wouldn't this imply empathy? Wouldn't they have to think that the brood could die and then understand how to avoid that? Then, wouldn't they have to feel when to stop? All of this becomes WAY more complicated and unexplainable if you put it all down to instinct... IMO well, not really. If you say that this is all instinct, you are giving the simple no thinking answer. Joe killed Bob because he is evil... no thought needed if you accept the existence of evil. Evil is a simple no thinking answer. If we said that varroa did what they did because they were evil, no one would try to figure out the truth. If we say that bees do what they do because of instinct, we will never try to figure out the truth.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Again, that word "instinct" is used too broadly. Instinct in an insect, even a relative genius like a bee, almost certainly does not compare to what we call instinct in any vertibrate, which in turn shows huge differences in sophistication between species. But I would say that instinct is generally adaptable and can be modified based on learning.

What I find interesting is that much of insect behavior is due to reflexes, and instinct is too high-concept an idea to use on what they do. Take a common house fly, for example. If you want to kill one, the surest way is to move up closely and position your hands to either side of a resting fly, then clap your hands together above the fly. The fly will reflexively do its "take flight and avoid" maneuver, jumping up and back, before actually flying forward. Even if you miss the first time, the behavior is so hard-wired the fly can't learn to do otherwise. It is reflex, without a hint of the higher cognitive function suggested by "instinct."

Bees, though, have a lot more brain cells than flies. I find it fascinating that they can be trained. Put a wiff of explosives in their food, and they'll associate that scent with food. In minutes you have a bee trained to sniff out bombs. It takes _months_ to do that with a dog. What's neat about this is that bees are generalists in an animal group dominated by specialists. Some insects have exquisitely sensitive senses of smell, especially for pheromones of their own species, but can't smell anything outside their normal range of needs, and they respond to odors reflexively. Bees can identify a non-natural smell and will adapt their behavior to it. 

Watching bees orient is a hoot. We identify our hives with letters painted in various colors. It is fun watching bees study the letters. I almost suspect they could learn to read on some simple level. We built a nuc this fall, which had trouble with the donor hive robbing it. We switched them into an observation hive and moved them about 100 ft away, and the robbing stopped for a week. Then we moved them into an 8-frame deep identical to the one the donor hive used (except for the letter) and robbing started again in a few minutes. The bees didn't recognize the obs hive body, but spotted a Lang deep immediately. They put this together: "It is a hive. It is not our hive. It is not the hive next to ours with the bees that kill intruders. Must be worth checking out." I doubt a fly has the brains for that. I think bees do rise to something above pure reflex at times.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

wcnewby said:


> We can agree that most all living creatures do not want to die... or, they want to survive.... they want.... this requires thought. We can agree that they fear... fear what? Death? yes... that is the opposite of survival... to be avoided... therefore, they must understand that they live, and that they can die. Want and fear are both human things.... or are they? I believe they are words that describe things, or conditions that can be applied to non human things without committing the A word. There is evidence that this is true for anyone who has eyes and some time for using them.
> 
> Bees want to be warmer and they cause heat, they stop heating when they reach a temperature... fairly consistent one too... so, do they have thermometers? If they weren't uncomfortable being to warm or too cold, why would they want to change the temperature? If they understood that the brood must be warmer or cooler, wouldn't this imply empathy? Wouldn't they have to think that the brood could die and then understand how to avoid that? Then, wouldn't they have to feel when to stop? All of this becomes WAY more complicated and unexplainable if you put it all down to instinct... IMO well, not really. If you say that this is all instinct, you are giving the simple no thinking answer. Joe killed Bob because he is evil... no thought needed if you accept the existence of evil. Evil is a simple no thinking answer. If we said that varroa did what they did because they were evil, no one would try to figure out the truth. If we say that bees do what they do because of instinct, we will never try to figure out the truth.


No, we cannot agree that animals "want" to stay alive. Animals do not possess that level of cognitive ability. 

Humans recognizing (reason) that death is inevitable, so they want to live. We can argue all day long whether bees feel pain or not, but saying that bees have the capacity to reason is way out in left field. Bees don't keep there brood warm because they want to stay alive anymore than a bear hibernates because it wants to take a rest, or birds fly south because they want to be warm. A lot of animal behavior is the result of instinct. That has been pretty well established and I don't think that many biologists (or animal behaviorists) would say otherwise.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Marysia2 said:


> I apologize to anyone offended.


I accept your apology.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Marysia2 said:


> The original question was, "Do bees feel pain?" I believe they do simply because it's in their best interest to feel pain, as it is for all animals...so they can avoid the situations that would result in death. It's simply a physical reaction.


Is what is in a species best interest played out evolutionarily? Isn't best interest a subjective idea? 

If drones feel pain when they mate, do you suppose other drones notice and decide not to try it themselves? Or are urges too strong to overcome?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Marysia2 said:


> You are correct. I had a visceral reaction based on previous encounters and I replied hastily. I apologize to anyone offended.


Excellent. Happens to the best of us.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Marysia2 said:


> That would require that a bee understands the concept of "sacrifice" and therefore chooses to commit suicide for the good of the colony; it would also require that she understands that stinging an enemy will result in her death.


Such comparisons are so imbedded in language and thought that I wasn't really even aware of it.




Marysia2 said:


> Or that a drone is willing to "sacrifice" all just for one and only one act of intercourse. I think a lot of drones would say, "Uh, thanks, I'll just remain a bachelor for whatever time is left to me."


Lots of male mammals will fight to the death for mating privileges. Pretty much any and every (intentional) stupid thing that a human male from age 14 to .... does can be directly attributed to his hope/belief that it MIGHT earn him favor with the ladies. It's the only explanation for lots of behaviors in that demographic. Just search for "fail" videos on youtube to see what I mean.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Is what is in a species best interest played out evolutionarily? Isn't best interest a subjective idea?
> 
> If drones feel pain when they mate, do you suppose other drones notice and decide not to try it themselves? Or are urges too strong to overcome?


Evolution selects for survival of the species - or survival of the genes depending on how you look at it. Any gene which prevents reproduction can only survive as a rare recessive trait I think. But then I pretty much learned everything I know from "for dummies" books.

Drones that give the proverbial 110% and scoff at death and dismemberment are *much *more likely to become daddys.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

The behavior of mating spiders is well enough known that it is part of folklore. The "Black Widow" is named for it. Generally, males are very small, and are not equipped to live longer than it takes to mate. Female spiders of many species will eat their mate after the job is done. This is also seen in insects, notoriously among praying mantises.

A few years ago, I saw a paper in which it was observed that some male spiders will play dead after sex to avoid being eaten, and it sometimes works. Just what they have to gain by this ruse is unclear. It is hard to prove they "want to live" after their primary function is achieved, but they do give the appearance that they have a survival instinct (or reflex).

Drones sure seem dismayed when being kicked out of the hive, and I've seen them beg for food, and get it, after being kicked out. I've kept evicted drones alive for three days, using them for photographic purposes.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

David LaFerney said:


> Evolution selects for survival of the species - or survival of the genes depending on how you look at it. Any gene which prevents reproduction can only survive as a rare recessive trait I think. But then I pretty much learned everything I know from "for dummies" books.
> 
> Drones that give the proverbial 110% and scoff at death and dismemberment are *much *more likely to become daddys.


I do suspect, though, that they haven't a clue what's going to happen to them an instant after they achieve that goal that they're so driven to do. And the same is probably true of workers stinging to defend their hive. That particular brain function might interfere with what they need to do, so I would expect any comprehension that would evoke dread has been weeded out in a hundred million years of evolution.

But then there's that spider behavior, males attempting to avoid being converted into egg protein.

Hive insects do seem to act more like body cells, although individual bees do seem to have true individual choice and motivation. Drones, in particular, are genetically pretty much sperm cells with wings. They're haploid, which in mammals only occurs in sperm and eggs. And their behavior matches this function, find an egg or die.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> No, we cannot agree that animals "want" to stay alive. Animals do not possess that level of cognitive ability.
> 
> Humans recognizing (reason) that death is inevitable, so they want to live. We can argue all day long whether bees feel pain or not, but saying that bees have the capacity to reason is way out in left field. Bees don't keep there brood warm because they want to stay alive anymore than a bear hibernates because it wants to take a rest, or birds fly south because they want to be warm. A lot of animal behavior is the result of instinct. That has been pretty well established and I don't think that many biologists (or animal behaviorists) would say otherwise.


Then why do they do it? Why do they hunt for food, and try to stay warm... why do they avoid things that could kill them and why do they seem unafraid of things that can not. You have chosen the easy no thinking answer and it doesn't cover... sorry... It was pretty well established that the earth was flat... once upon a time.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> Watching bees orient is a hoot. We identify our hives with letters painted in various colors. It is fun watching bees study the letters. I almost suspect they could learn to read on some simple level. We built a nuc this fall, which had trouble with the donor hive robbing it. We switched them into an observation hive and moved them about 100 ft away, and the robbing stopped for a week. Then we moved them into an 8-frame deep identical to the one the donor hive used (except for the letter) and robbing started again in a few minutes. The bees didn't recognize the obs hive body, but spotted a Lang deep immediately. They put this together: "It is a hive. It is not our hive. It is not the hive next to ours with the bees that kill intruders. Must be worth checking out." I doubt a fly has the brains for that. I think bees do rise to something above pure reflex at times.


My hive is kind of different than others. It has three circular entrances in the bottom. I marked these entrances on either side with triangles circles and squares. I wanted to see if the bees would use the symbols. The bottom of my hive has arches, and they are marked, at the peak, showing which entrance it is over... Each arch has an entrance at it's peak... In this video they are using the triangle entrance, they used one entrance predominantly all the time, but it would change every week or so. Sometimes they preferred the square entrance, and sometimes the circle one. Its kind of neat how they go into the hive up the wall and come out on the other side... like they know out on the inside in on the outside and all agree to do it... for the sake of traffic.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Nabber86 said:


> A lot of animal behavior is the result of instinct. That has been pretty well established and I don't think that many biologists (or animal behaviorists) would say otherwise.


True. However, as an actual wildlife biologist, my question is where does the instinct come from/originate. That is a perfectly legitimate question and one that has been asked by many other biologists. There are only theories regarding the subject and no concrete evidence.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

TalonRedding said:


> True. However, as an actual wildlife biologist, my question is where does the instinct come from/originate. That is a perfectly legitimate question and one that has been asked by many other biologists. There are only theories regarding the subject and no concrete evidence.


I agree, but we all know, hopefully, that there is a big is a different between cognitive ability and instinct (regardless of where instinct comes from). Surely you don't believe that instinct is a learned behavior? A couple of examples to illustrate:

My dog was rescued from a shelter. I think that we can safely assume that he did not grow up learning a lot of things from other dogs. He has _learned_ to beg for food by himself, but he didn't _learn_ to pee on everything in site when he is put in the back yard. Nor does he have enough brain power to figure out on his own that peeing on stuff marks his territory and keeps other dogs away. Even if he was smart enough, how would he know that peeing on the fence keeps other dogs away (all the dogs in my neighborhood are behind fences and some are even chained up)? The dogs don't have a chance to approach each other and learn to keep each other away by marking their territory. Why would they bother when the fence does that for them? Marking territory is an instinct. If you removed a dog from all other dogs after weening and kept it in isolation, the first thing he would do when you let him out in the yard would be to pee on everything. There are probably hundreds of experiments that have been performed that show many unique traits are inherent to a specific animal, even if that animal is raised in isolation. 

Why do birds in colder climates fly south? It's not like they are standing around in Canada and one bird says to another (probably a jackdaw  , "_Hey, i am freezing my tail feathers off here. What do you say we roundup the rest of the flock and fly south_?". How does the bird know it is warmer in the south? How does the bird even know which way is south? How does the bird convince his friends to go with him? These are not learned behaviors.

What about the migration of the monarch butterflies? It takes 4 generations to make the migration to the south and then north again. The butterflies that finish the migration cycle are the great, great grandchildren of the butterflies that started the migration. It is kind of hard to claim that the butterflies learn from one another, when none of them know where or why they are going for each leg of the journey.

Are we really to the point that we are going to throw instincts out the window and claim that all animal behavior is learned? Even for insects? How about bacteria, viruses, and prions?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Nabber, I think all of those would be labeled by most people as examples of instinct. But Talon has an excellent point that it tells us little about what instinct IS, and if it has different roots in different animals.

You end with Monarchs. I'll start with them. We're talking about an insect with a tiny brain that must lack all higher cognitive functions that your other examples should have. Whatever is going on in that pinprick of a brain is truly remarkable, in large part because it MUST be more programming with little capacity left for any kind of intellectual overlay.

Birds are supposedly more instinct-driven than mammals. We use the term "birdbrained," but a single bird brain would outweigh a handful of Monarchs, which gives all the more credit to Monarchs for being able to migrate. Bird migration may be largely instinctive (although people have taught cranes migration routes by leading them with ultralights), but we know some of the feathered rascals are quite adaptable and can learn new tricks, especially if food is involved. Some parrots and crows are notoriously smart. My ****ateil, Dandy, on the other hand, would probably lose a game of chess to a Monarch.

Dogs have instincts, but dogs also clearly have emotions and some pretty complex behaviors.

Do all three have instincts that work the same? What is the root of these behaviors? Is it all pre-programmed?

I would expect, in Monarchs, that it probably does trace back to some sort of deterministic neural programming.

With higher animals, I would expect that underlying urges mesh with learning. Does a bird automatically know how to fly? Or does a bird instinctively work its wings as a fledgling, get the feel of air on its wings, likes the feeling, exercises more, triggers more instincts, and learns by some feedback loop of instinctive behavior and learning? I've seen an estimate that 1 in 4 fledgling flights of eagles is fatal. They don't always get it right the first time. And then their parents start teaching them to hunt.

Mammals add in a healthy dose of curiosity. Yes, male dogs seem to instinctively **** their legs and mark things, but then they go around sniffing marked objects. There's a curiosity there, and it is rewarded (our brains recoil from any idea this is a reward, but it is) with a dose of information about other dogs in the neighborhood. And this promotes another little deposit on the object. Again, a positive reinforcement of a basic behavior, involving learning. And not all of a dog's mental activity is such basic instinct. They do a lot of learning and can be trained to do useful work with no wild equivalent.

So I'll go with Talon on this ... the fascinating question is "what underlies instinct?" And I'll bet there is not just one answer.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Nabber86 said:


> Surely you don't believe that instinct is a learned behavior?


It's funny you ask. I just got done watching my newborn daughter nurse. The minute she was born, she started nursing. I will never forget how she just knew what to do without being taught. I can only assume that was instinct. 
I wouldn't even think of suggesting that instinct is learned or taught. Skills are taught, which reinforces the instinct. Instinct comes from something else...
It's almost impossible to know whether insects feel pain the way we do because we cannot communicate with them and they cannot communicate with us on our level. The same goes for any other animal. 
I think it's fair to say that without pain, instinct for survival and even mortality would be somewhat diminished.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Phoebee said:


> Nabber, I think all of those would be labeled by most people as examples of instinct. But Talon has an excellent point that it tells us little about what instinct IS, and if it has different roots in different animals.
> 
> Do all three have instincts that work the same? What is the root of these behaviors? Is it all pre-programmed?
> 
> ...



Well i think can all agree that there are instincts and there are learned behaviors. As long as somebody isn't claiming that instincts _are_ a learned behavior (as I think wcnewby was trying to claim), I agree that how they came about is an interesting topic. I wasn't debating that.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Just because most people have no idea of how their animal products are raised and processed it does mean these practices are acceptable. Yes insects perceive and react to pain.



zhiv9 said:


> I saw this the other day. It's pretty well done, but at times intentionally casts the beekeepers in a bad light without really explaining the why.
> 
> Is the automated frame scraper and splitting shown better or worse than letting an entire hive or apiary suffer and die from varroa and viruses in an attempt to produce "survivor stock"?
> 
> A film about commercial poultry processing vs backyard chickens would be equally shocking for many people. Most people have no real idea where their food comes from


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> Well i think can all agree that there are instincts and there are learned behaviors. As long as somebody isn't claiming that instincts _are_ a learned behavior (as I think wcnewby was trying to claim), I agree that how they came about is an interesting topic. I wasn't debating that.


I'm not saying instincts are a learned behavior at all, there are instincts... we have them ourselves. Something hits your eyelash and you blink without thinking... things that happen without thinking I would call instincts. I am saying that there is much behavior laid off on instinct that can be more easily explained by thinking. For the dog peeing on stuff, for instance. It's a dog, it can smell like a dog... it smells the urine of other dogs, it wants them to smell its urine, the logical way to do this would be to pee on something high up. If a dog can think it wouldn't need to learn this from other dogs... though it easily could by noticing dog urine in high places. 

I first began thinking about animal thinking because of my reef aquarium. I set it up so that I wouldn't have to feed it. I had fish food, but mostly I used it to coax the fish out when people were over. That is another thing... my fish knew me, they were not scared of me. If I was alone in the room, there they were swimming around doing their thing, eating the algae... Someone else they didn't know, boom... not a fish in sight. I had it set up so they would have areas to hide. They are very territorial, and not having their own spots leads to fighting among them. So, I invite someone to look at my tank... no fish. For this reason, I had fish food, and in the weeks between my feeding them they should have forgotten it, being nearly brainless... Yet, every time I pulled it out, they would swim around at the front of the tank doing their little "feed me" dance. They didn't do it if I had a soda can. I drank coke at the time, and the red can was very similar in size and shade to the food can, but they never danced for the soda can. These observations made me start thinking that certain types of people were not as right as they seemed.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I also have reef tanks. The fish do learn and they have different fish "personalities".


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

wcnewby said:


> I'm not saying instincts are a learned behavior at all, there are instincts... we have them ourselves. Something hits your eyelash and you blink without thinking... things that happen without thinking I would call instincts.


Uh no. Blinking is an involuntary muscle reaction, not an instinct. Just as your heart beating is an involuntary muscle movement due to electrical impulses from your nervous system; not an instinct.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> Uh no. Blinking is an involuntary muscle reaction, not an instinct. Just as your heart beating is an involuntary muscle movement due to electrical impulses from your nervous system; not an instinct.


Instincts are involuntary muscle reactions, not the beating of the heart, or breathing... those are standard things that are maintained... like body temperature... but raising your arms to protect your head, or putting them out when you fall... withdrawing your hand from pain. Those are instincts that could have logically evolved by survival ratios. If you protect your head, you don't die... that sort of thing. A fly taking off because of a quick motion... would be like us blinking an eye, or raising our arms... or a deer running because it sees a flash of fur sort of like our screaming when startled... it startles the attacker. (I do not scream, personally) So, we, like animals do have instincts. I disagree that a beaver making a dam is instinct, or a bird a nest, or geese flying south for the winter, or bears hibernating... these activities are too complex to be instinctive IMO.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

wcnewby said:


> IMO.


I think we have just identified the problem here. I am done with this exchange for reasons of ignorance and gross failure of logic. Good night.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

"Something hits your eyelash and you blink without thinking... things that happen without thinking I would call instincts."

Something hits your eyelash and you blink is a _reflex_. 

Needing to pee and turning that into an urge to raise your leg and wet a tree is an instinct.

A fly responding to a sudden movement with an automatic jump and fly maneuver is a reflex.

A bee emerging from its cell and starting on a life of detailed complex chores is instinct.

Humans almost certainly have instincts, but we muddle them up with learning so much it is hard to pry out the actual instincts.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

TalonRedding said:


> True. However, as an actual wildlife biologist, my question is where does the instinct come from/originate. That is a perfectly legitimate question and one that has been asked by many other biologists. There are only theories regarding the subject and no concrete evidence.


It is usually assumed that are a strong genetic basis for the instincts. The idea held already by mechanisms that determine the genetic influence on the instincts are not fully understood , since they are unaware of the genetic structures that determine their heritability.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> Humans almost certainly have instincts, but we muddle them up with learning so much it is hard to pry out the actual instincts.


W. McDougall was the author who most developed the study of instincts in psychology . According to him, instincts are innate structures behavior leading to (1) a particular direction of perception ( individuals tend to perceive certain phenomena more often than others) , (2 ) a particular emotional reaction and ( 3) a tendency to react to the perceived object in a certain way . The crux of instinct , he said, is the emotional reaction , the other elements ( the perceived object and the reaction ) could be modified . Thus , the human being would be left only a rudimentary expression of the original instinct. Since this definition of instinct moves away from the more traditional definition of ethology , Mcdougall often used the term propensity instead. With this definition of instinct author managed to create a model that allowed describing the wide variety of human behavior . However , although the model McDougall was later partially confirmed by empirical research of emotions , the research paradigm initiated by him led only to a series of lists of biases , unable to give a more detailed explanation of human behavior .


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

About emotions and feelings I suggest reading the work of Antonio Damasio (see Antonio Damasio in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Damasio).
Good reads!


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Lauri said:


> Crazy when you uncap some drones and no one moves a lick. Pretty lifeless until they actually hatch. If these guys were writhing and screaming when mite checks were done, I believe there would be less checks being performed.
> 
> But even larva pulsate in the jelly, funny more mature pupa don't show more signs of life.
> Poor drones, they don't get no love. And even if they do..they still die


Lauri, 

There was a really creepy story in _Analog Science Fiction and Fact_ by David Brin a couple of months ago, speculating on the nature of metamorphosis. Brin is a physicist but usually researches his science pretty well. His description of the transition between larvum and adult insect pretty much matched my experience with trying to extract early-stage pupae from drone cells during a varroa freeze-out exercise this past summer. I'd needed to pull the frame before the purple-eye stage, and the pupae were pure mush. Brin describes the process that way. Except for a few cells, the larvae pretty much turn to mush and are rebuilt, and for all intents and purposes the larvum and the adult are totally different entities.

What got creepy and science-fictional was his speculations on applying that to human beings.


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## antonioh (Oct 15, 2014)

Hello Eduardo !

A big hug to you .



Eduardo Gomes;1187534 Most probably not because they have not the brain structure ........ the neocortex.[/QUOTE said:


> ??
> 
> I think mammals have neocortex. Some of them with a slightly different structure.
> 
> ...


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> "Something hits your eyelash and you blink without thinking... things that happen without thinking I would call instincts."
> 
> Something hits your eyelash and you blink is a _reflex_.
> 
> ...


How do you know which is which? I group instincts with behaviors that could evolve. If it happens without thinking, it gets put in the instinct category. It does get muddy, because humans can learn to do things that look like instinct through muscle memory... ie. knowing what way to turn the steering wheel when your car looses traction. You respond to the situation correctly though teaching your body what to do prior to its happening. I believe species evolve sets of split second reactions from their ancestors, and also preferences, or prejudices... For example, I have never been attacked by a wolf, but if I am in the woods at night and I hear them, I suddenly "feel" like being up a tree.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> I think we have just identified the problem here. I am done with this exchange for reasons of ignorance and gross failure of logic. Good night.


Wow!!! now that is consideration for you. Don't feel bad though, your ignorance and gross failure of logic are perfectly curable. Just remember that you should probably use your eyes and ears more than your mouth if you have nothing of substance to add and suddenly you wont be a knuckle dragging cave-man anymore...


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

wcnewby said:


> How do you know which is which?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=instinct+vs+reflex



:digging::digging::digging:


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=instinct+vs+reflex
> 
> 
> 
> :digging::digging::digging:


Yeah, there is no refuting that logic....


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

http://www.ottolehto.com/wp-content...gnitive-States-of-Animals-printed-version.pdf


The above is a link to a paper regarding animal intelligence... I'm not the only one to wonder...

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" ~ Mark Twain


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## gjt (Jul 24, 2014)

What matters to me is how I behave.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

gjt said:


> What matters to me is how I behave.


How I behave matters to my wife, and thus matters to me too...


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

I can't wait for spring to get here so we can get back to beekeeping & instead of philosophy.
From the looks of this thread, it's gonna be a loooong winter.
: sigh :


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## Bal (Aug 11, 2014)

scorpionmain said:


> I can't wait for spring to get here so we can get back to beekeeping & instead of philosophy.
> From the looks of this thread, it's gonna be a loooong winter.
> : sigh :


It's spring in Australia  
Just beeing cheeky


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Bal said:


> It's spring in Australia
> Just beeing cheeky


Bal, shouldn't you be out doing splits or something? (Bees clustered and I'm grumpy and envious)


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

antonioh said:


> I think mammals have neocortex. Some of them with a slightly different structure. Well, quite a thread you got there


Hello António !
An advanced search on this forum with the word Portugal , had already realized you were signed in! It's great to read you here .
When I associated feelings and the neocortex (*see quote #78*), not thought appropriate to give more specialized details . But as you raise yourself the question I can be more precise .

Then taking into account the context of my previous response I can say the following more and more precise and supporting me in Damasio, he demonstrated experimentally that the insular cortex is a critical platform for feelings. About the insular cortex or insula: There is evidence that, in addition to its more conserved functions, the insula may play a role in certain "higher" functions *that operate only in humans and other great apes*. John Allman and his colleagues have shown that the anterior insular cortex contains a population of neurons, called spindle neurons. These neurons are also found in the anterior cingulate cortex, which is another region that has reached a high level of specialization in great apes. Spindle neurons are found at a higher density in the right insular cortex. *It has been speculated that these neurons are involved in cognitive-emotional processes that are specific to great apes, such as empathy and self-aware emotional feelings*. This is supported by functional imaging results showing that the structure and function of the right anterior insula are correlated with the ability to feel one's own heartbeat, *or to empathize with the pain of others*. It is thought that these functions are not distinct from the "lower" functions of the insula but rather *arise as a consequence of the role of the insula in conveying homeostatic information to consciousness.*

Indeed and as I said this matter was far beyond what I 've ever been able to imagine. I believe it has left our solar system and the floor of the truck will exceed the Milky Way . As far I am concerned I will apear me this ship .


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## antonioh (Oct 15, 2014)

The anatomy and histology of CNS is well known, but about its functions, there is still a long way to go.
The more recent technologies of image are giving some help but, lots of things are yet to be defined whith certainty.

One very curious finding is that different individuals, may use different areas of the cortex, when performing the same activity.

Dogs hunt in group and need to coordinate the attack. It was thought that this coordination was made on sight, and this was the only way they did it.

But in India, in dense florest, wild dogs hunt without seeing each other. They coordinate the attack also communicating by voice. Different kinds of barking give each other different kinds of instructions... 

...it seems that the man is not the only animal with the hability to talk...


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

"Long before most people were contemplating any serious degree of concern for animals, Jeremy Bentham, the founding father of the English school of Utilitarianism, wrote, ‘‘The question is not, ‘Can they reason?’ nor, ‘Can they talk?’ but, ‘Can they suffer?’’’10 That is indeed a crucial question to ask whenever we are talking about beings who are capable of suffering and one that is clearly relevant to how we should treat both humans and nonhuman animals. Can they suffer? Can they enjoy life? If so, they have interests that we should take into account, and we should give those interests equal weight with the interests of all other beings with similar interests. We should not discount their interests in not suffering because they cannot talk or because they are incapable of reasoning; and we should not discount their interests in enjoying life, in having things that are fulfilling and rewarding for them, either. The principle of equal consideration of interests should apply to both humans and animals. That’s the sense in which I want to elevate animals to the moral status of humans." PETER SINGER, SPECIESISM AND MORAL STATUS (http://www.oswego.edu/~delancey/Singer.pdf).

For me the acronym KISS makes a lot of sense in many ways. So , my management will increasingly aware that the bees may feel pain, may perhaps suffer . I mentioned in previous post (#61) that is inevitable crush bees in my management of my A. m . iberiensis (they are very restless ) . But there also mentioned what I've been doing to prevent massive deaths of bees , that I consider negligent . Accidental deaths of my bees I can live with them , negligent deaths of my bees weigh me in my consciousness .


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

antonioh said:


> The anatomy and histology of CNS is well known, but about its functions, there is still a long way to go.
> The more recent technologies of image are giving some help but, lots of things are yet to be defined whith certainty.
> 
> One very curious finding is that different individuals, may use different areas of the cortex, when performing the same activity.
> ...


I saw a program on animal language in which they had developed a test. If you take any language and break it down by counting the words and graphing them according to the number of times they are used you develop a line/curve because some words are used a lot and some a little. You can do this with any book in any language and you will get the same line/curve. If you do this with random words, (a book of just random gibberish) you don't get the line/curve. Apparently, the patterns that appear in communication are universal and recognizable. Researches used this method on dolphins. They recorded the squeaks and chirps and started graphing their occurrence and found the curve for an organized language. Beyond that, they have taught sign language to primates.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Hey, _my _bees have learned to _count_!

Don't believe me? 



> *Number-Based Visual Generalisation in the Honeybee​*
> Using a y-maze, we found that bees can not only differentiate between patterns containing two and three elements, but can also use this prior knowledge to differentiate three from four, without any additional training.
> 
> _Read the study for free here:
> _http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004263



... but is the bees' ability to count _learned _or _instinct _... :kn:


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Hey, _my _bees have learned to _count_!
> 
> Don't believe me?
> 
> ...


Nice paper... very interesting.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Since a year ago this part I have a robot in my house. This pretty robot can talk and doing accounts . However I was assured by the person who gave me this robot he felt no pain nor suffered from mistreatment that I inflicted on him . Every day incessantemnte oblige him to carry a heavy bag from my first floor to my second floor , 24 hours a day , and there are 353 days in this part . I was told by the manufacturer that was the best way to keep it busy . Do not ask me why, because he did not explain to me . What is true is that I do not feel morally affected because he assured me that the robot felt no pain or suffering . Not yet realized why invented a robot that can talk and know how to count , but they do not feel pain or suffering? Maybe so I do not feel sorry for him . If so nailed it : in fact I do not feel!

This manufactures robots are very smart people:gh:


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

http://relaximanentomologist.tumblr.com/post/51301520453/do-insects-feel-pain


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I'm sure bees can feel pain. Stink bugs, roaches, and bark beetles probably do as well. 

I have sympathy for bees. I'm even kind to spiders, ladybugs, and, for the most part, wasps.

I have no compunction at all to sending stink bugs, roaches, and any bark beetle that finds itself in my house to a horrible death.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

I quote: "I do not think any research to date warrants a discussion of moving the line, but at the same time I do not think we should rule out the possibility that insects are capable of pain, albeit through different neurological pathways. 

As Carl Sagan popularized, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. Insect pain and suffering is one of those extraordinary claims and is going to require extraordinary evidence to definitively say one way or another. However, in the *meantime I will not expose any insects to undue suffering when I use them in experiments or add to my insect collection*."

Thank you wcnewby. I'm the same point as the entomologist is : if I 'm in doubt I play in favor of insects / bees .


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

wcnewby said:


> I saw a program on animal language in which they had developed a test. If you take any language and break it down by counting the words and graphing them according to the number of times they are used you develop a line/curve because some words are used a lot and some a little. You can do this with any book in any language and you will get the same line/curve. If you do this with random words, (a book of just random gibberish) you don't get the line/curve. Apparently, the patterns that appear in communication are universal and recognizable. Researches used this method on dolphins. They recorded the squeaks and chirps and started graphing their occurrence and found the curve for an organized language. Beyond that, they have taught sign language to primates.


That's called a Zipfian distribution and it applies to a _lot_ of data sets, not just language. It is just one example of an inverse power distribution and has nothing to do with intelligence.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> That's called a Zipfian distribution and it applies to a _lot_ of data sets, not just language. It is just one example of an inverse power distribution and has nothing to do with intelligence.


Yes it does; if the distribution was created as communication it came from a thinking source as opposed to a wheel with a un-lubricated bearing spinning in the wind... for example...


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

wcnewby said:


> Yes it does; if the distribution was created as communication it came from a thinking source as opposed to a wheel with a un-lubricated bearing spinning in the wind... for example...


There are thousands of Zipfian distributions including the population of cities, length of rivers, masses of planets, web traffic, TV ratings, earthquake magnitude. It simply means that if you plot rank versus size on a log-log scale, the data forms a straight line that slopes downward; size being mass, length, number of occurrences, etc. The log-log axes indicates a power relation and the downward slope means it is an inverse relation. Thus it is called a "inverse power" relationship. It means nothing else.


Just because a defined pattern emerges in the data, you think intelligence is involved? That is absurd. Do you have a source for this foolishness?


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> There are thousands of Zipfian distributions including the population of cities, length of rivers, masses of planets, web traffic, TV ratings, earthquake magnitude. It simply means that if you plot rank versus size on a log-log scale, the data forms a straight line that slopes downward; size being mass, length, number of occurrences, etc. The log-log axes indicates a power relation and the downward slope means it is an inverse relation. Thus it is called a "inverse power" relationship. It means nothing else.
> 
> 
> Just because a defined pattern emerges in the data, you think intelligence is involved? That is absurd. Do you have a source for this foolishness?


None that would convince you... but that doesn't mean they don't exist, just that you have a closed mind... you must be a teacher of some sort. Those types are utterly convinced that the knowledge they posses is the most current and correct, even if it isn't. Anything anyone says to the contrary is "absurd" "foolishness" "ignorance" "gross failure of logic." There is no arguing with a person like you... you are right, and if anyone disagrees, they are wrong. Thankfully, this is only your perspective, and the world is not made entirely of people like you.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

I'd like to refocus the debate . The question is : *insects feel pain ?*

If you wish to continue discussing the issues of intelligence , emotions and feelings in insects would be much more interesting that you did so in another thread.

Again I quote Peter Singer because it seems to me a good starting point: "Long before most people were contemplating any serious degree of concern for animals, Jeremy Bentham, the founding father of the English school of Utilitarianism, wrote, *‘‘The question is not, ‘Can they reason?’ nor, ‘Can they talk?’ but, ‘Can they suffer?’’’* That is indeed a crucial question to ask whenever we are talking about beings who are capable of suffering and one that is clearly relevant to how we should treat both humans and nonhuman animals."

I leave a suggestion to continue this debate : what can be done and what can we do to minimize the possible suffering of bees? Thank you for your kind comprehension.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

I apologize for being snotty. I do respect teachers, they have to protect known things from wahoos. It seems they sometimes become bitter in the task though. I feel the answer to "do insects feel pain" and "do they think" are closely linked by cognition. The sensors don't offer an advantage if there is nothing to read the data, to remember it, to extrapolate, to learn and modify your behavior... all of these things keep you from dying. I agree that it may not be the same as how we humans do it, but it must be accomplished by some method. Observable behavior is pointing at this with big flashing arrows.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

and instinct doesn't cover it for me.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

wcnewby said:


> I feel the answer to "do insects feel pain" and "do they think" are closely linked by cognition.


Is it possible for you to open another thread about this intuition? Tank you!

I will say it again: I leave a suggestion to continue this debate : what can be done and what can we do to minimize the possible suffering of bees? Thank you for your kind comprehension.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

The first thought most young boys encounter on this "do lower life forms feel pain" question comes the first time they go fishing. First, they bait the hook with a worm, which is a really disturbing thing for a young kid to do. Daddy assures them that the worm does not feel pain. But clearly they do. In scientific terms, you can demonstrate that they react to an electric shock in a manner consistent with the psychological definition of "negative reinforcement," but any child knows a reaction to pain when they see it.

And then you catch your first fish, and look at that hook thru the lip, and daddy says the same thing.

We don't stop fishing. But hopefully we don't lose all empathy in the process, either. It is not so much that lower animals must never be exposed to pain ... that is their lot, just as it is ours. Nature exposes them to pain quite often, and without sympathy. But if we cease having sympathy, it is not good for *US.*

Does thinking have to correlate with feeling pain? I think not. It is just that too much thinking about pain can be worse than pain itself. Worms get over it quickly. Bees may learn to hold a grudge.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Is it possible for you to open another thread about this intuition? Tank you!
> 
> .


Eduardo, I see you are new to the board. Welcome to BeeSource. One thing to note is that threads tend to evolve (a lot) and can end up going in several different directions at once. Intelligence, pain, and emotions are related enough to keep them in the same thread. 

It could be a lot worse. As soon as Ace joins the discussion, we will be arguing about 5-gallon buckets of water and hurricane force winds. 

FWIW, I think insects bees feel pain on some level. That's why when I burn ants with a magnifying glass, they scatter around and try to get away. If we are going to limit the talk to how to minimize the suffering of bees, the answer is simple. Try to keep them healthy and above all, try to minimize squishing them.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Phoebee said:


> The first thought most young boys encounter on this "do lower life forms feel pain" question comes the first time they go fishing. First, they bait the hook with a worm, which is a really disturbing thing for a young kid to do. Daddy assures them that the worm does not feel pain. But clearly they do. In scientific terms, you can demonstrate that they react to an electric shock in a manner consistent with the psychological definition of "negative reinforcement," but any child knows a reaction to pain when they see it.
> 
> And then you catch your first fish, and look at that hook thru the lip, and daddy says the same thing.


I agree with the earthworm feeling pain, because it basically gets impaled through it's body. Even through fish are higher up the evolutionary ladder, and are more likely to have a better sense of pain than a worm, fish lips do not have nerves. So in your scenario the fish would feel no pain from the hook. Not saying that they would not suffer pain from being yanked out of the water and slammed against the bottom of a boat.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> Eduardo, I see you are new to the board. Welcome to BeeSource. One thing to note is that threads tend to evolve (a lot) and can end up going in several different directions at once. Intelligence, pain, and emotions are related enough to keep them in the same thread.
> 
> It could be a lot worse. As soon as Ace joins the discussion, we will be arguing about 5-gallon buckets of water and hurricane force winds.
> 
> FWIW, I think insects bees feel pain on some level. That's why when I burn ants with a magnifying glass, they scatter around and try to get away. If we are going to limit the talk to how to minimize the suffering of bees, the answer is simple. Try to keep them healthy and above all, try to minimize squishing them.


Sweet Jesus.... we agree on something...


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

But I think the ants scurry around because they are trying to find something naughty to bite.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> When I started this post was far from imagining acceding to and passionate debate that he would raise .
> 
> When I opened this issue was not with the intention of implicitly say that I would change the way I manage my hives on this knowledge . I 've smashed many bees and I am sure that I will continue to do, because it is inevitable .
> 
> ...


Perhaps with the help of everyone we can go a step further, identifying some best practices to avoid the death of bees . On top I quote to me giving proper examples of what I have been doing . I can give some more , but I appreciate your contributions because surely be very valuable.

Just for the sake of accuracy did not intend to limit the discussion , I intend to refocus it .

Who am I to limit this or any other debate on this forum or anywhere else ? I'm just a beekeeper , who like my bees know I have a limited time to reap the harvest .


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

wcnewby said:


> Sweet Jesus.... we agree on something...


Yes. I never was arguing that insects do not feel pain, or that the even have some crude level of intelligence. My only points have been: 



There is a big difference between instincts and learned behavior; instincts are not learned.
Animals do not "want" to be alive; that don't have emotions
Involuntary muscle movement (reflexes) are not instincts


Jeez, you would think that I just counter everything just for the sake of an argument.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> Yes. I never was arguing that insects do not feel pain, or that the even have some crude level of intelligence. My only points have been:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that there is a difference between instinct and learned behavior, but not that the difference is big. Muscle memory for playing musical instruments and other things that seem or happen as quickly and thoughtlessly as instincts are not very different at all. I will agree that instincts are not learned, but disagree that they go much beyond reflexes, or preferences... which can be a fairly powerful stimulus. And if reflexes are genetically inherited, and occur without thought, it seems fairly excusable for a person to confuse them with instinct... I can buy that a bird wants a nest out of instinct, but the skill required to build one is not inherited automatically. It isn't as if a program pops up that has them grabbing strands of grass, daubs of mud, dog fur, bits of string.... This seems to require thought along the lines of "I want to make this, and I could use that." The want could be instinctive, and I would buy it all day, but I can't swallow the actual building part being instinct.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

But with bees the distinction between learning and instinct are one of the things that make these little genius insects so fascinating. While we can demonstrate that they can learn (they can be trained and they definitely deliberately orient on their environment), they are born, or develop with age, an ability to handle complex tasks. 

The distinction between instinct and reflex, at least to me, is that reflexes are a pretty simple "stimulus in, fixed response out" mechanism. And some of what bees do is reflex. Likely some of their more complex behaviors might be found to be a series of interrelated reflexes. But it is hard to imagine some of the things they do are possible without fairly complex decision-making pathways. Reflex: flip light switch, light comes on. Instinct: Provide multiple inputs, computer program starts executing, decision tree parses pathway according to multiple inputs, and a result pops out. I don't think reflexes explain how a bee could go out to forage, involving navigation by the sun, pattern recognition of its unique hive, recognition of multiple species of flowers, evaluation of the product found, adjustment of its dance to communicate quality, distance, and direction to the source, all explained as a "reflex." But parts of this activity, such as scooping pollen into baskets, probably are genuine reflexes.

Now, as to this business of an insect "wanting" to be alive, that's one of those unknowable areas that might not be so simple as we think. I'd say, so far at least, computers are totally non-sentient. They don't _want_ anything. They don't even "want" to exist. They can be made to seek something, but it is our will imposed on their programming, not an actual want. But it is not clear to me that the real point of organisms with a central nervous system is not to equip them with a way to "want". It might be primitive, but critters have needs, and it is not unreasonable that the machinery for making them fulfill those needs is not "want." Most fundamentally, organisms with brains seem to have what we call "survival instinct". In the most primitive cases where it is more "survival reflexes", that's probably not genuine want, but probably represents a step toward that goal.

Watching a bee go nuts over finding food, and go back to brag to the hive about what it found, I'm hard-pressed to think they don't seek nectar and pollen eagerly, seeking the reward of accomplishing what they're made to do. _ Want._ But it is hard to prove.

And it may be quite important that we never teach this to artificial intelligence, if we know what is good for us.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

How about this explanation which is purely conjecture on my part. 

Instincts are the result of a long process of evolution. Birds flew. Some birds flew south, some north, some other directions, etc. Birds who ended up flying south for what ever reason, did better (out competed) the birds who flew other directions. After millions of years, only birds that flew south survived and this was eventually encoded into their DNA. So birds today still fly south (migratory birds in the northern hemisphere; before anyone complains about my example) for the winter with no reasoning as to why. Instincts are somewhat voluntary. Birds have to make an effort to take off and continue flying. 

Reflexes are involuntarily and although it must be encoded in DNA, it is on a much simpler level and is simply a stimulus/response mechanism. 

Where do you draw the line between the two? Smarter people than I have pretty much figured it out and there is an overwhelming amount of documentation supporting this. Wiki sums it up in an easy to understand explanation that seems pretty straight forward to me: 

_Instinct or innate behavior is the inherent inclination of a living organism towards a particular complex behavior. The simplest example of an instinctive behavior is a fixed action pattern (FAP), in which a very short to medium length sequence of actions, without variation, are carried out in response to a clearly defined stimulus.

Any behavior is instinctive if it is performed without being based upon prior experience (that is, in the absence of learning), and is therefore an expression of innate biological factors. Sea turtles, newly hatched on a beach, will automatically move toward the ocean. A joey climbs into its mother's pouch upon being born. Honeybees communicate by dancing in the direction of a food source without formal instruction. Other examples include animal fighting, animal courtship behavior, internal escape functions, and the building of nests.

Instincts are inborn complex patterns of behavior that exist in most members of the species, and should be distinguished from reflexes, which are simple responses of an organism to a specific stimulus, such as the contraction of the pupil in response to bright light or the spasmodic movement of the lower leg when the knee is tapped._


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Nice, this is more what I was after, not a regurgitation of what has been known, but thoughts from intelligent people who have made observations. I don't expect this sort of thing to be scientifically attributed, were just talking upper level smack and whatnot.... 

Nabber, I can feel the evolution thing with the birds flying all ways and only the south flyers survive... I am a Dawkins fan. (I just wish he would get back to work and quit playing with the Christians) The thing is, there is a reason that the south flyers survive better. There has to be, and this supports the behavior of flying south... and the behavior for flying north. I think it may have to do with alligators and baby geese... like emperor penguins, they leave to increase the chance that their young will survive. But there is a flaw. What if we get alligators in the north? Would the behavior, that is now genetically encoded (for the sake of argument) persist until geese were extinct and alligators in the cat seat, or would some black sheep tattooed goose decide to find another place where alligators weren't... Would that happen by chance? yes... if it goes the way of instinct, and that would take too long to save the goose. Nature must be more flexible than that. It is in almost every other category of change.

Because I am an animal, I should be able to identify instincts in myself that are as the wiki describes, innate and not based on prior experience. I am having trouble doing this. I give you breathing, the beating of my heart, the maintenance of my body temperature. I had to learn to swim, to walk, to talk, to run, to interact successfully with others, to use tools... everything that I know I had to learn. If instincts are this powerful, surely we should have got something... instinctive abilities like golf, or guitar playing.... okay, that was a joke...


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Want is a ticklish thing to prove with science, but I think behavioral observations could be enough, given that we don't do the A-word. We can say that animals fighting are not angry, even though they look angry. They could be like boxers in a ring, just looking to prove physical superiority for one reason or another... be it mating rights, or foraging rights, or just protecting the resources of an area they consider "theirs." The anger we imagine could be just that... imagined. Bar fights do look different than boxing matches, but animal fights look more like bar fights than boxing matches to me... then again, some modes of combat are sort of regimented, like sumo wrestling... In regard to want though... why would they go through all that if they just didn't give a shiite? They gotta want... it's in their actions.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

Phoebee said:


> And it may be quite important that we never teach this to artificial intelligence, if we know what is good for us.


I've been thinking that a _really_ neat macro project (i.e. 20 years with Bill Gates level of funding) would be to reverse engineer the honeybee. The whole thing, from the software (including this pain/avoidance/instinct/reflex thingy we're debating) to the hardware. But that probably deserves its own thread.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> I've been thinking that a _really_ neat macro project (i.e. 20 years with Bill Gates level of funding) would be to reverse engineer the honeybee. The whole thing, from the software (including this pain/avoidance/instinct/reflex thingy we're debating) to the hardware. But that probably deserves its own thread.


After 20 years, Waterbug concludes his project with a simple poem.

Cybugs are made by fools like me, but only God can make a bee!


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