# Long Langstroth or Layens?



## oldSarge (Feb 14, 2017)

"You are slower than molasses in February in North Dakota when it comes to spending more than $20 on any one item" Says my darling wife. I have been pondering keeping bees as a hobby/activity since we've bought our, in my mind, final living arrangements in January 2014. Now I am real serious about attempting to activate two to four hives on our 7¼ acre piece of southwestern Georgia for spring 2018.

I will be able to retire from full time employment almost any time now but want to wait at least until after May 2018 when my employers current contract runs out. I don't see us attempting any more than a dozen active hives at any given time. Both of us are in our 60's and are concerned about a lot of bending over and heavy lifting.

Now that I've put y'all to sleep with background info here's my query. I've narrowed my hive interest to two styles, long Langstroth and Layens hives.

I like long Langstroth because of its conformity to "industry" standards. I can purchase an economy crank drive extractor and not worry if the frames will fit. I've heard folks express concern about restricted expansion possibilities and I've even seen some have stacked supers on top but I wonder how common this situation might be with say 36 frames.

I like Layens for the deeper, bee favored(?), comb frames but I'm not sure that as a non-commercial endeavor that this migh be approaching diminshing returns.

I know an issue for both is weight but I have an JD 1025R tractor with loader and pallet forks if I should need to move either and I don't plan to place hives in tight places or distances that I cannot get it there if needed.

Both look to be pretty simple to build and I have skills, tools, and time to do so, frames and all.

So, it's long Langstroth or Layens. Will the bees and their tenders significantly benefit from the less common proportions of the Layens or will the long Langstroth be "good enough" in the end?


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I can't decide for you, but here's a video I did of an inspection. .. 
https://youtu.be/1vpmDH9AXvw


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

I'm thinking of moving to something more back-friendly than all ten frame mediums. Are those Layens frames available or do you have to make your own? I'd never heard of them before. I'll probably eventually end up with a long hive with frames. 

I've also thought of a 10 frame extra deep for a single brood chamber. About the depth of two mediums. That seems to be large enough for my location as long as I'm not raising Italians.
I'd still have ten frame honey supers, but I wouldn't be doing as much stacking and unstacking. Or I could make the bottom a little longer and super with 6, 7, or frame supers. I can build boxes, but don't have the patience to build frames. I thought I might use a deep frame with sides but no bottom for the bottom box.
E


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## oldSarge (Feb 14, 2017)

@rweakly: Helpful video, thanks.

I'm not trying to get anyone to decide for me, just looking for information and experience that would help me choose. I'm really leaning toward the long Langstroth though.


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## oldSarge (Feb 14, 2017)

Kenww said:


> I'm thinking of moving to something more back-friendly than all ten frame mediums. Are those Layens frames available or do you have to make your own? I'd never heard of them before. I'll probably eventually end up with a long hive with frames.


Yeah, the back thing is driving my horizontal interest too. I just recently discovered the Layens hive while cruising bee information on the Web. Just curious if the deeper construction is a benefit worth persuing or maybe miniscule at best.

I'm really leaning toward a standard deep long langstroth maybe 40 frames across employing movable back boards.


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## Jecsd1 (May 20, 2014)

Don't bees have the natural tendency to build up, not out? How does this effect productivity in these extra wide hive designs?


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## oldSarge (Feb 14, 2017)

Jecsd1 said:


> Don't bees have the natural tendency to build up, not out? How does this effect productivity in these extra wide hive designs?


I have read the opposite, they build down hence the development of the Layens hive and since comb is built from the top down. I think the direction has more to do with continuous comb not additional separate comb either above or below.

I have to say that since I have no commercial interest in my future beekeeping activities if long Langstroth hives are within say 90% honey production efficiency as compared to any stacked hive design I'll be happy with the result. I am hoping the bees will also enhance our efforts in our greenhouse, fruit trees, and future aquaponic project. The first couple of years of my retirement are going to be very busy.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Have you considered the Slovenian AZ hives? You get the nice vertical thermodynamics but with the benefit of working horizontally, so no heavy boxes to lift off etc. 

There is now a USA made source that has adapted the AZ hives to work with Langstroth sized frames:
http://www.drebbievillehives.com/


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Old sarge
I have read in several places that bees and green houses don't mix. Maby bumble bees and green houses. I sure thought about a talapia fish project but am finaly over it now. 
Good luck
gww


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

I plan to build one of these this summer, populate it with a strong, young colony that i can use as a feeder hive -- pull resources from, make splits from, etc. 

http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/long-langstroth-plans.shtml


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## oldSarge (Feb 14, 2017)

gww said:


> Old sarge
> I have read in several places that bees and green houses don't mix.


I don't plan to put the hives in the greenhouse. I plan to use the greenhouse to start a large amount of bee friendly annuals to be planted around our property.


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## oldSarge (Feb 14, 2017)

WesternWilson said:


> Have you considered the Slovenian AZ hives? You get the nice vertical thermodynamics but with the benefit of working horizontally, so no heavy boxes to lift off etc.http://www.drebbievillehives.com/


While this hive looks nice it also looks like it adds another level of complexity and cost while removing a bit of versatility.

The suggestion of another vertical design seems to suggest a resistance to going horizontal. If there is an important negative aspect of the horizontal hive I'd really like to hear it/them.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

There is one big drawback to horizontal hives, their thermodynamic profile. Bees are set up to efficiently capitalize on the heat plume off the cluster. By using that column of warm air to their advantage, particularly in cool spring/summer zones and hard winter zones, they are able to maximize productivity across the board (brood rearing, nectar drying, colony calorie needs). When requested to work "sideways" they lose access to thermodynamic based efficiencies.

The colder your climate, the more important that is going to be. Here in the Pacific NW, I have found that horizontal setups are slow to start in spring, earlier to shut down in late summer, do not brood up or store honey as well as vertical setups, and present particular challenges to overwintering. 

The great advantages of working one frame at a time, never having to lift heavy boxes, and the ability to set things up so the beekeeper can be seated if necessary can certainly outweigh the attendant reduction in honey yields and bee production, particularly for hobbyists who do not need to practice max productivity.


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## oldSarge (Feb 14, 2017)

WesternWilson said:


> There is one big drawback to horizontal hives . . .


Very informative response, thanks.

Well, we're in southwestern Georgia. We have few nights that get below 30° and very rarely below 20°F. I'd be more inclined to worry about heat management Jult to September.

Attending my first meeting with our local beekeeping club tomorrow night. I'll be sure to ask about the heat then.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Thankyou! I got my first horizontal hive, a top bar hive, just to see how it worked....because my father is disabled and gave up beekeeping in the late '80's when Varroa came along...at the time I missed the fact that it was really the lifting and carrying that was too hard for him. The top bar hive was perfectly suited to any beekeeper who needed to beekeep seated...and my dad needs to be in a wheelchair. As a beekeeper who needs to generate max honey and bees to subsidize my apiary expenses, I found the horizontal setups worked, but not well enough to generate the bees and honey I need.

I got two AZ hives...because with some tweaking of the beekeeper side of things, they too can be worked if you need to be seated. I think for the beekeeper who does not want to deal with heavy lifting, but wants max production, they will be the answer.

Horizontal setups would be great for a lot of situations, but in the course of my testing for Dad, I thought...what a fantastic addition to a retirement home! Many now include garden areas and keeping track of the bees and their year would be appreciated not only by the beekeepers, but the interested observers. Let alone the honey harvest : )

FWIW I got into beekeeping not just out of a love for the natural sciences, but because I knew I needed to develop a hobby or two I could take into retirement and old age, keeping me active and engaged, and which could be done if I were in a wheelchair. Beekeeping was one, and I love it...quilting is the other. A perfect pair, one for summer, one for winter!


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## Chris G (Feb 26, 2017)

oldSarge said:


> @rweakly: Helpful video, thanks.
> 
> I'm not trying to get anyone to decide for me, just looking for information and experience that would help me choose. I'm really leaning toward the long Langstroth though.


I personally keep both those kinds of hives, In all honesty Im moving towards layens because it fits my style of beekeeping better.


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## Chris G (Feb 26, 2017)

WesternWilson said:


> There is one big drawback to horizontal hives, their thermodynamic profile. Bees are set up to efficiently capitalize on the heat plume off the cluster. By using that column of warm air to their advantage, particularly in cool spring/summer zones and hard winter zones, they are able to maximize productivity across the board (brood rearing, nectar drying, colony calorie needs). When requested to work "sideways" they lose access to thermodynamic based efficiencies.
> 
> The colder your climate, the more important that is going to be. Here in the Pacific NW, I have found that horizontal setups are slow to start in spring, earlier to shut down in late summer, do not brood up or store honey as well as vertical setups, and present particular challenges to overwintering.
> 
> The great advantages of working one frame at a time, never having to lift heavy boxes, and the ability to set things up so the beekeeper can be seated if necessary can certainly outweigh the attendant reduction in honey yields and bee production, particularly for hobbyists who do not need to practice max productivity.


I keep 3 horizontal hives (2 tanzanian and 1 layens ) and I dont buy all that about bees doing better in vertical spaces , its not been the case from my perspective here in southern Michigan, in fact the opposite is quite true. I have a harder time with my vertical hives doing well over wintering than I do with any of my horizontal hives so far, but my boxes are 1.5 inches thick , I use top entrances , and I let the bees do what they want with their nest for winter after end of July. I dont follow protocol with what everyone else does and it seems to work for me. I love keeping bees and trying different things and honey production is not my priority .


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## Marv (Mar 27, 2017)

WesternWilson said:


> There is one big drawback to horizontal hives, their thermodynamic profile.


From what I've read about DEEP horizontal hives, I understand the drawbacks would be minimized by using deep frames. According to "Keeping Bees With a Smile" by Fedor Lazutin, (and also Leo Sharashkin of horizontalhive.com, where the above book is available,) the bees winter better in deep frames because they have more vertical space to travel as they eat their way up through the honey store.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

chris G raises some good points...there are many practices that help bees winter well that are independent of hive plane. That said, I think the deep frames while marginally beneficial, would only be a weak advantage. And again, the farther north you are, the more you are going to miss the thermodynamic boost from a vertical setup. In warmer areas, it won't be an issue.

Note I have nothing against horizontal setups, even in cold winter areas, which make beekeeping possible for those who cannot manage the lifting involved in vertical stacks. In that case you willingly trade some productivity for ease of management.


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## MadAnt (Jul 23, 2016)

oldSarge, if you really want "something horizontal" and ready for some woodwork here is two more options:
1) 20(24) jumbo frames(435*300mm) horizontal, you have to adjust size of the box to your deep or whatever package(nuc) coming. Space under frames classic 1 1/2", but some other designs show 2-4". Roof mounted on hinges.
2) ukranian 16 "tall frames"(300*435mm), depends on flow you might need shallow super. Some people do 12 frames brood and 8 frames shallow super rotated 90 degrees.
3) combinations of above.


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## Marv (Mar 27, 2017)

MadAnt, what are the advantages of these two designs? They sound similar to deLayens and horizontal deep Langstroth (also like Fedor Lazutin, but not as deep as his. Lazutin makes his 435mm wide and 470mm deep). Do you like these hives in your climate? What do you say about the heat flow as mentioned by WesternWilson above?
Do you have extractors in Europe to take these large frames? I have all these questions because I am very interested in this type of hive design.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

oldSarge, I'm going to be direct. Between the two hive types you've asked about, go for the long Langstroth: You will be using a standard frame size, you can extract honey, you can sell extra bees if you want because other beeks will also be using Langstroth equipment, you can set up a vertical hive if you want to experiment, you don't have to do math when the mite treatment says "so much product for so many frames of brood", your hive will fit the frames when/if you buy bees, etc, etc.

Things are standard for a reason.

Good luck!


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