# help for a newbee



## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Oh I just remembered a few more questions... 

6) I've seen some pictures on Mr. Bush's site and a few others that have done vertical, long hives. Can you give me some more information on them and also maybe some diagrams?

7) Whats the benefit between medium and deep brood chambers?

Thanks again,

Doug

[ December 09, 2005, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: daknoodle ]


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Yet another...

8) I want to stay as natural and non-chemical as I can. Any tips and ideas?

Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1) I've heard Mr. Bush and a few others talking alot about natural cell and small cell. I'm very interested in moving in that direction. Is there any advise that you can give about starting packaged bees on it?

The simple answer is just use 4.9mm, small cell, foundation (available from Dadant or Brushy Mt). If you want to use foundationless frames you can either put a wooden strip in the top bar where the foundation goes or you can add a triangular comb guide. If you want to cut starter strips of foundation (3/4" wide strips of foundation put in the top bar) this can work also. How you attach the foundation depends on the design of the frame. If it's a grooved top bar you'll need to wax the strip in. If it's a "wedge" top bar you'll need to nail the wedge in to hold it. Make sure you put the wedge on a DIFFERENT frame than it came off of, if it's a used frame. That way the nail holes WON'T match and it will hold better. Otherwise, install the package like any of the books say and it should work fine.


>2) Is there anyone who can give me information on some good places to get package bees for a good price in Texas?

I've done business with both of the Weavers (from back before they split into two) for years and they are local to you. I have had some hot queens from them, but only once (2000 queens that went berserk in 2001 after the hives swarmed). They would probably do fine and if they get hot you can requeen them. I wouldn't kill all the bees. I would just seperate all the boxes onto their own bottom and lid. Put an empty box at the old location for the field bees and search each box for the queen. One box is usualy pretty managable.

>3) Is there anyone who can tell me about the desease and mite conditions in the Austin area?

Varroa are bad everywhere. The only things you might have there that everyone in North American doesn't have is probably Africanized bees.

>6) I've seen some pictures on Mr. Bush's site and a few others that have done vertical, long hives. Can you give me some more information on them and also maybe some diagrams?

Mine are just the same dimensions as a langstroth medium box except longer. If you take the 16 1/4" ends and make them longer, that's pretty much it. My mediums are designed to include the space at the bottom board, so they are just one by eights with a rabbet for the frame rest and then either 1/4" laun for a bottom or 1/8" hardware cloth for the bottom. So mine are three boxes long (48 3/4") by the standard Langstroth frame length (19 7/8" outside for the boxes for 19" long top bars).

>7) Whats the benefit between medium and deep brood chambers?

Mediums are easier to lift (60 pounds full of honey for a ten frame box) Deeps will hurt your back (90 pounds full of honey for a ten frame box). I'm fond of the eight frame mediums (48 pounds full of honey)

>8) I want to stay as natural and non-chemical as I can. Any tips and ideas?

Natural, or 4.9mm small cell size. Don't use chemicals. Monitor the mites to make sure what you're doing is working. I have never used Fumidil or Checkmite, I haven't used Terramycin since 1976 and I've only used Apistan a couple of times four and five years ago in 31 years. If you don't want to use chcmicals, then don't.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Doug

I've just built 2 long hives based on Michael's ideas
here's some pic's

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/lh/lh.html

Dave


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Dave

I love what you built, any chance you might a have writen out diagram or dimentions of some sort? I'm not so good at "eyeing" woodwork and making it work for myself. Also, you had mentioned 15 top bars with the rest as frames. How do you keep the brood nest only on those 15 top bars and can someone tell me how to use top bars with a package?









Sorry for all the questions guys, I just really want to start off good and strong. I was always taught to learn from other peoples mistakes first...  

Thanks again for all the help.

Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>any chance you might a have writen out diagram or dimentions of some sort?

Mine are outside dimensions of 7 1/4" deep by 48 3/4" long by 19 7/8" wide. The frame rest rabbet is 3/4" deep and 3/8" wide and runs the legnth of the long sides. The distance from the inside of the rabbets is 19 1/8" and the top bars (or Langstroth frames) are 19".

>can someone tell me how to use top bars with a package? 

In my KTBH I just put the package in the hive and let them do what they wanted. In my TTBHs (Tanzanian TBH), it's the same dimensions as a long Langstroth medium, so I starter all of them in five frame medium nucs and move them up through eight and ten frame boxes before moving them into the long box. A division board that could be moved back would probably do just as well. A division board is just a board cut to fit like a frame only tight to the ends and bottom and is used to "divide" the hive. By limiting the space they have to work with I seem to get straighter combs than when they have the whole hive to themselves. I also get straighter comb if I keep feeding bars between nice straight combs, especially in the brood nest or capped combs. I made half my bars 1 1/4" and half 1 1/2" and I through a "cheater" in now and then to get back on track, when the bees get too far off by making really fat honey combs.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

"How do you keep the brood nest only on those 15 top bars"

the theory is the bee's build their brood nest close to the entrance and store honey deeper in the hive
this is all new to me so I can't say for sure
spring is gonna be a big experiment
I can't wait

Michaels dimentions are what I used
If you want to see em written down, bwrangler who moderates this forum has a real nice website with drawing and lot's of info

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/tanzanian-top-bar-hive/

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The bees want the brood nest in one area. It may be in the front or it may be in the back. But it will be in one area. The rest will be used for honey and pollen, with the pollen closer to the brood nest.

Think of the brood nest as a ball that expands from early spring until summer and contracts in dearths and in the fall. The bees have to keep it warm and need a supply of open nectar or honey and pollen nearby to feed them. The rest of the hive is surplus for winter stores. The bees have no interest in spreading brood all over the place where it will be difficult to keep it warm and cared for.


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## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

So then, when they need to use the stores, does the cluster migrate along the hive or do bees go and get some and bring it back to the group?

This question doesn't imply any type of hive: Can it get cold/(or whatever) enough that the bees can starve with an excess of stores?

John


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So then, when they need to use the stores, does the cluster migrate along the hive or do bees go and get some and bring it back to the group?

A little of both. The cluster, as a group, tends to move through the hive consuming stores. But it's the bees on the edge of the cluter that are in contact with the stores and pass it into the cluster. Bees share food. So either everyone has something to eat or no one does. When the weather is warmer the bees getting food wander further from the cluster and rearrange things sometimes.

>Can it get cold/(or whatever) enough that the bees can starve with an excess of stores?

Yes. I don't know of an "official" term for this, but a common term used on this board is "cold starved". That's where the cluster contracts from the cold and it stays cold for too long and the cluster doesn't get moved back into contact with stores in time to stave off starvation. When you open a dead hive and find a cluster of bees, headfirst in the cells and empty comb all around them and stores a few inches away in several directions, this is usually the cause. Here that seems to happen most often when it dips around -10 or so for a couple of weeks.

There's really not much you can do to stop it. Maybe Mt. Camp's idea of solar gain from the roofing felt would help some. They might get warm enough during the day to expand back out a little and find the stores agin and then get moved towards them.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Heres another question...

I work a lot in the computer industry and I am acustom to see new technologies being developed nearly every week, making old equipment obsolete. Do I have to worry much about this in beekeeping?

Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I still have bees in the first boxes that I bought from Dadant 31 years ago. Of course the wood was much nicer then.







Clear white pine.

The only "obsolecence" has been that I've gone to Screened bottom boards and cut all the deeps down to mediums (my choice) and all the ten frames down to eight frames (my choice) and I still USE all the old bottom boards for ten frame nucs and for swarm traps, so it's not like it's obsolete. But I did quit using plastic foundation, which, for me, is now obsolete because I've gone to small cell.

Most of the 31 year old bottom boards have rotted out and the 31 year old stands have rotted out but a couple are still in use. The boxes are still in use. The 31 year old telescopic covers have also rotted out some, but are still in use.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

So thats a no huh? lol

So how often do inovations tend to come out for beekeepers? And how open are beekeepers to new things?

Also, are there plastic frames designed in small cell? (Sorry, really not trying to make everything I say a question







)

What is the benefit of screened bottom boards?

And for the last one this post (  ) Can I use the larger cell foundation that I'm being given for supers?

Maybe one day I'll become as smart as MB and I'll be the one answering all the question....lol


Doug


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Doug, I'm in Greenville, about 30 minutes east of Dallas. You can come by anytime. I practice pretty much what Michael Bush teaches (and why not, I learned it here): 
foundationless, 
all mediums, 
OA, etc. 
We have a Dadant warehouse in Paris, TX, so supplies are pretty easy to come by. You can order from anywhere, but for wooden ware, no shipping is a good thing. I build some stuff like screened bottoms, tops, feeders, etc. I also have a pretty cool observation hive and highly recommend one as a learning tool. By the way, I'm a systems engineer for a major defense company and started in software.

[ December 09, 2005, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Ross ]


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Doug, 
If your bees are africanized, you might be interested in this article

http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm

Waya


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Awsome, we will have to arange some time for me to come out there. It was actually Dadant that told me how to "take care" of the bees and I'm considering buying my packages from the Paris location in the spring. Still debating between Weaver and Dadant.

I myself am actually getting a degree right now in Youth Ministry. I have one semester left in school (YIPPY!!!) All my computer knowledge I've learned on the side or from my brother (he works for National Instraments in Austin and manages their test enegineering division spceifically world wide software controls). I do everything from hardware to software, with specifics in web design and online retail. So I sorta think of myself as a jack of all trades. 

Thank you much for the invite. Send me a PM or email with your contact information and I'll get ahold of you.

Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So thats a no huh? lol

Well new things come out, but they don't necessarily make what you have obsolete.

>So how often do inovations tend to come out for beekeepers?

All the time. Beekeepers are an inventive lot.

>And how open are beekeepers to new things?

Some are very open. Some are very NOT open.









>Also, are there plastic frames designed in small cell?

Dadant did have plastic foundation, which worked fine for me on regressed beed but not so good for regressing them.

>What is the benefit of screened bottom boards?

IMO, mostly good control over ventilation, but they also provide somwhere for varroa to fall and, if you have a tray under them, a way to mointor Varroa mite infestation levels.

>Can I use the larger cell foundation that I'm being given for supers?

You can use it anywhere you like.







But if you want small cell bees I wouldn't use it in the brood nest. Since I don't have an excluder on my hives, it's hard to say where that ends.







But if you have an excluder, I guess that's what's above it, and yes you could. Or just use the large cell for starter strips and use them everywhere.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Well after reading the article from Wayacoyote I think I'm gonna try and import some Asian bees to control the mites...







Made an interesting read. Remind me again, someone, what does the mites do to the bees? Do they actually kill them?


Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are two kinds of mites. Tracheal mites and Varroa mites. Tracheal mites live inside the bees and it's not hard to breed for resistance. For reasons, unknown to me, a lot of queen breeders don't seem to care. They just treat for tracheal mites and raise queens. I don't treat for tracheam mites and raise queens.







I figure if they can't survive the tracheal mites I don't want them.

The Varroa mites are the hard ones to deal with. Resistance seems to be much harder to breed for. The Varroa mites go into the cell just before it's capped and lay eggs. The first egg is a male and the rest are females. They all feed on the bee larvae. The male mates with all the females it can find that are mature enough to mate (and survive) and then the bee emerges with the mature/mated females on it. The mites then try to find bees to get into the gap between the "plates" on the bees exoskeleton and they suck their "blood" (actually hemolymph). After a few days of this they try to find another cell about to be capped and infest that and lay more eggs.

The bees get deformed wings and they get various viruses that get vectored by the mites. Eventually the hive usually succombs and all the bees die. usually in late fall or early winter. A badly infested hive will have tens of thousands of Varroa mites.


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

Michael,
I'm curious about your referance to a "ten frame nuc". Could you please educate me on this?-thanks j


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Wow, thank you much for that information MB. I figured the relationship between mites and bees was one that didn't harm the host. So whats the best way, non-chemically speaking, to defend against v-mites? (I'm gonna guess, its the small cell b/c of the mites not having enough space correct?)

Doug


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## Lew Best (Jan 8, 2005)

Hey Doug

Sorry to bee so late jumping into this; where are you located? You show Austin & Dallas; bout 200 miles apart. There's several bee clubs in the Dallas area; one here in Waco. Don't know about Austin. Gimme a shout sometime if you like; I'm a newbee myself & live near Waco if you want to contact me sometime when you're in the area. Email is [email protected]

BTW we have a package bee/queen producer just outside of Temple; I can give you his phone number if you want it. On the path (almost) between Dallas/Austin so you can pick them up & save shipping.

Lew


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Lew

I currently go to college in Waxahachie, my equipment is coming from Arlington and I'm setting up at my brother's house in Austin  

I would love to get that contact for the breeder in Temple, I drive through there a lot to see my brother. Also, when it gets warmer I would love to come out and see what you have setup. My email address is [email protected]

Doug


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Hi Doug, and welcome. Actually the varroa mite does poorly on regressed bees because of less time in the capped brood cell. Not the size. They do better in drone cells because of more time inthe cell. Two generations in one capped cell can really up their population. 

Also the chems used to kill the mites are now obsolete. The mites have become resistent. They'll still kill some of them but if powdered sugar kills more, which do you want to use?

Must bee something techy about bking cuz we sure got a lot of us puter folks here.

Hawk


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

There appears to be reason to believe small cell works due both to the shorter capping time AND the cell size. Space (or lack thereof) within the cell is an issue for varroa as it affects their ability to move around, feed, and mate.

In any case, we can speculate as to why small cell seems to help bees become varroa tolerant, but I don't think it's been proven exactly why it works. Or am I wrong?

George-


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Touche George, I don't know. I doubt if anyone does. We do know the uncapping time affects it and that's the theory behind the drone trapping method of IPM. I probably shouldn't have phrased it as solidly as I did, so let me change it now.

It is indeed uncertain how much effect the size of the cell has on the mite's population. But we know the nope! Can't do it. It's just not true. The two go together. If we enlarge a cell it becomes a drone cell or a queen cell. That's where the mite prefer to go. Then inside the cell the increased TIME of capping (caused by the increased time a drone needs to develop) allows the mites to do their multi-generation thing.

I don't think it's possible to test size separately from time. You'd have to convince the workerbees to raise workers in the drone cells. You got your Masters yet Fergie?









Hawk


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I don't think it's possible to test size separately from time.

If in deed it's even necessary to test them separately. A careful and thorough study of exactly what the halibut is going on in a small cell hive in regard varroa breeding might supply the answer. We know that small cell hives have varroa, they breed, they just never seem to obtain the foothold they get in large cell hives, or at least, that's what I hear.

I'm not sure it is JUST ONE THING. I'm not sure a reproducible scientific experiment where the only thing different is cell size can be done. I'm not sure of a lot of things









There was another thread here recently... that discussed the question of the effect of the size of the cell on varroa reproduction... see if I can find it... it's hard to keep on top of *everything* happening here.... Ah here it is:

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000248

It's been dormant for a while.

>You got your Masters yet Fergie?

Have had several, for some time, but my wife is working tonight, my kids moved out long ago, and my dog is upstairs sleeping. I'm masterless tonight









George-


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm curious about your referance to a "ten frame nuc". Could you please educate me on this?-thanks

A nuc is a Nucleus colony. That means rather than a booming hive with 20 frames of brood and 40 or 100 frames of honey, it's just a queen and a few bees. A nuc box is any box you have a nucleus colony in. Usually meaning no more than one box and usually refering to a five frame box.

A ten frame deep would still be a nuc to me. An eight frame medium box is the same size as a five frame deep nuc box.

I have an assortment of sizes (all medium depth) and like to use the appropriate size for the job:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/AssortedWidths.JPG

>Wow, thank you much for that information MB. I figured the relationship between mites and bees was one that didn't harm the host.

On small cell that seems to be the case. On "normal" large cell that is not the case.

>So whats the best way, non-chemically speaking, to defend against v-mites? (I'm gonna guess, its the small cell b/c of the mites not having enough space correct?)

That and shorter capping and emergence times cut down on the number of offspring from the mites. Also hygenic behavior helps.


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

WOW! 20 frames of brood!
This means i've never really seen a real hive-only nucs! I'll be checkerboarding early this year.
Thanks again for the reply Michael-j


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>WOW! 20 frames of brood!

Don't expect all of them to do that.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

>WOW! 20 frames of brood

I expect the senate will looking into beekeepers who are supplementing feed with steroids soon!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Nah. Congress and the Senate will be busy trying to do what the constitution specifically instructs them to do, police video games.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I'm still waiting for the gov's instructions for NAIS for beekeepers.It should be interesting.


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## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

<daknoodle> So whats the best way, non-chemically speaking, to defend against v-mites?

<Michael Bush> That [SC] and shorter capping and emergence times cut down on the number of offspring from the mites. Also hygenic behavior helps.

<me> Great question. To the SC and looking for hygenic behaving bees I like the idea that the bees should not be walking all over the stuff that falls out of the hive. I think Michael made an observation about the bottom of wild/feral hives that he has seen. This kind of stuck with me as one possible contributor as well. Hence my top or mid entrance design going in.

I do think that we are really trying to find peace with the v-mites as to me it appears we won't get rid of them.

John

[ December 12, 2005, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: John F ]


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