# Why do people always claim there is no $ in bees



## whitebark (Jul 14, 2004)

Admittedly my day job paid for my entrance into the bee world but I also turn a nice profit off my bees now that they are established, yet every time someone asks about getting into bees they are scared off with first hand stories and little anecdotes about investing in bees. I sell all of my honey from 60 hives at $7/lb and will just be finishing selling last years crop later this spring just in time to get a dandelion crop extracted. I'm just curious if there are other small scale success stories or is it really the doom and gloom others speak of?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

If someone were to really put the screws to your operation, could you claim the following:

Your honey is extracted in a govt approved manner/facility?

You have liability insurance in case someone gets sick from your honey and decides to sue you?

You properly file all income from honey sales as a business and pay taxes on it?

Not to say you can't fly under the radar on those things and be successful, but you never know.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good post JRG13. That's where in some kind of a way, it's advantage little guy, long as they are smart. I know several beekeepers with just a handful of hives who make an excellent second income from their small venture, not being bothered by things such as tax, insurance, dedicated vehicle / facilities, etc.

Of course should things ever go wrong legally for them, then it could be a different ball game but I suspect most or all of them will get away with it pretty much indefinitely.


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## Andy382 (May 7, 2015)

Whitebark you say you sell your honey for $7/lb where most bigger operations have to sell in bulk barrels for $2-$2.25/lb I think I've read, to sell all their honey plus sell any wax or other products at wholesale where you're selling yours at retail. You're getting around 3 times what the big guys are getting. Makes a big difference, plus all the added expenses like stated above


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

Prior to 2015 in Missouri Honey was classified the same as Jelly and Jam for the SMALL producers. That meant you needed to process and extract it in an approved commercial kitchen or dedicated honey house. Lots of rules and expensive regulations. Our club introduced legislation that changed that so you could do that in your kitchen. That helped out the hobbiest and sideliners but excluded anyone who made over $30,00 per year from honey sales. One of the members who was instramental is a commercial beek. He has quit coming to our club as I'd guess it just made him mad that all of the work he did for us excluded him.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

JRG13 said:


> If someone were to really put the screws to your operation, could you claim the following:
> 
> Your honey is extracted in a govt approved manner/facility?


Yes. The VA Dept. of Ag inspects my "facility" and charges me an annual fee. 



JRG13 said:


> You have liability insurance in case someone gets sick from your honey and decides to sue you?


No. This is a potential issue for me, but at least I'm operating as an LLC. Yes, I know that this is not the same as insurance.




JRG13 said:


> You properly file all income from honey sales as a business and pay taxes on it?


Yes. I bit the bullet and hired an accountant to mange my taxes. 


My operation sounds much like that in the OP. We do not move bees for pollination, so we avoid a lot of the associated expenses that real commercial operations must deal with. We target multiple income sources from our bees, not just honey, but pollen, wax, and queens. It all adds up and we are definitely profitable, but it didn't happen overnight either.


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## LKBruns (Jul 12, 2014)

Someday I'd like to build my business into something similar to what you have done !!!

Keep it up - It gives me hope when I hear stories such as these


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Why do people always claim there is no $ in bees?

Because the IRS monitors this website!  ......... silly I know, but just could not resist........


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I think it is because we all know a few failed beekeepers. Also, after talking to many bankers in my areas, they basically say that for every successful beekeeper there are 2 that have failed and another that is just hanging on.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Because it's like anything else - it's easier to fail than it is to succeed. Also, if making a profit at (insert activity here) is not a goal, you almost never will. And when we fail at something it's human nature to place the blame elsewhere.

Some of the commercial guys who should know, have commented something to the effect that with the price of honey and pollination what they currently are, beekeeping is as (more) profitable as (than) it has ever been.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Because it's like anything else - it's easier to fail than it is to succeed. Also, if making a profit at (insert activity here) is not a goal, you almost never will. And when we fail at something it's human nature to place the blame elsewhere.

Some of the commercial guys who should know, have commented something to the effect that with the price of honey and pollination what they currently are, beekeeping is as (more) profitable as (than) it has ever been.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

snl said:


> Because the IRS monitors this website!  ......... silly I know, but just could not resist........


Excellent point SNL


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## bjamesvw (Apr 17, 2014)

I was able to add an insurance rider to my homeowner's insurance policy for about $20 a year. This doesn't cover the issue of someone getting stung, but if they get sick from the honey I'm covered. The claim that they got sick from my honey is a bigger concern for me than getting stung.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

It's cheaper than golf.


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## whitebark (Jul 14, 2004)

Much like Astrobee I don't move bees around and avoid many of the commercial costs. I used to work for a large beekeeper that had flatdecks, swinger, large extracting line etc. etc. I run an F150 and bees stay put, I run a maxant sideliner line and get the most out of what I produce. I know I charge triple what larger guys do but that is my point - it isn't that hard. I sell at farmer's markets that set the food rules and sell from my home.

As far as insurance goes, I do carry some for my bees as offered by the BC Honey Producers. Insurance for the food side is different but the Markets classify honey as a safe food so it requires less safe processing than say meat or other products.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

bjamesvw said:


> I was able to add an insurance rider to my homeowner's insurance policy for about $20 a year. This doesn't cover the issue of someone getting stung, but if they get sick from the honey I'm covered. The claim that they got sick from my honey is a bigger concern for me than getting stung.


At the risk of derailing this thread, I believe that this rider covers only the homeowner and extends no coverage to sales or liability under the business. I'm certainly no expert on insurance matters, but it is my understanding that a business needs coverage under the business name. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## bjamesvw (Apr 17, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> At the risk of derailing this thread, I believe that this rider covers only the homeowner and extends no coverage to sales or liability under the business. I'm certainly no expert on insurance matters, but it is my understanding that a business needs coverage under the business name. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


I currently have 4 hives and have no business name or entity. I believe it is a roadside stand rider which allows me to sell honey from my house and provides me product liability coverage. A commercial policy would be better, but this partially protects me for a reasonable price. It's not worth it for me to spend a few hundred dollars a year for a commercial policy.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Cottage Food Laws very by state and product produced/sold. As far as insurance, the sky is the limit. With my current insurance company I can sell 5K in honey, then sell 5K in maple syrup, then 5K in something else. As long as I do not exceed 5K in any one endeavor, I am covered by my homeowners policy. If I go over that, then other options are available. I think that by keeping things simple, you can turn a profit, if you want to.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

AstroBee said:


> At the risk of derailing this thread, I believe that this rider covers only the homeowner and extends no coverage to sales or liability under the business. I'm certainly no expert on insurance matters, but it is my understanding that a business needs coverage under the business name. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


It depends on your business structure. If you are a sole proprietor/mom and pop you can get "umbrella" liability coverage which does more or less what the name implies.

BTW, corporate business structures only give good liability protection if they are properly structured and administered. Who's name is on your land deed? If people are inclined to sue you they can aim at the corp which claims to own the business, but they can also sue the land owner, or the individual who caused or allowed the hazzard they are claiming. Trying to be too clever can backfire if you don't really know what you are doing with these things. Like I don't for example.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I only brought up those questions, because some people feel they have to be done to feel legitimate and minimize liability or make sure they're covered in case liability comes up. Sometimes these things make it cost prohibitive, but if you can fly under the radar it's not such a bad thing. If you can find your niche market and maximize it, then of course there's money to be made. Part of it is locational too, the bees have to do well enough and the forage needs to be there to make a profitable honey crop.


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

They don't usually say there is no money in it. They usually say there are easier ways to make more money. So if you like beekeeping and hard work great, if you are looking for a way to make a living, not as great.


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## WLeeH (Jan 16, 2015)

I would say that for most people there is no money in bees because of the types of operations they run. If you only have 10 colonies and sell a little honey, maybe a little wax, and say 10-15 nucs a year, you probably are only covering the cost of your "hobby" and maybe make a few $$ assuming you don't have high losses and are willing to do a little foot work to sell your products. If you have a bigger operation of say 80-100 hives, you can make some money as a sideliner if you do it right, but it's only going to be sideliner type of money as it is unlikely you will make enough to live on off such a small operation. I think to really make a go of it as a money maker you can live on you have to live in the right area, operate 200+ hives, and be willing to work long hours and do a lot of product pushing selling, honey, wax, nucs, queens, etc. 

Bees like anything else can provide a living for a person so long as they are willing to work hard at it and be smart with their money.


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## KatieBee Honey (Mar 3, 2016)

There's tons of money in bees. Its just it's all spent by the time you get it


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I don't see why you're all saying there's no money in bees. I've made a living with my bees for more than 40 years. My employees make a living from my bees. If you don't know how to make honey with your bees, if you don't make and sell nucleus colonies raised from your bees, or raise and sell quality queens raised in your apiaries, then I guess the premiss is correct. There's no money in bees.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Randy Oliver said something interesting recently.
He was talking about successful beekeepers.
"Do you want to know how to determine who the successful beekeepers are in your area." he asked?
"Just look for the ones that are always selling bees in the spring. Bulk bees, packages or nucs, successful beekeepers have more bees than they know what to do with, year after year." he said.
When I look around at my fellow beekeepers in the PNW, his words hold true across the board.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

whitebark said:


> Admittedly my day job paid for my entrance into the bee world but I also turn a nice profit off my bees now that they are established, yet every time someone asks about getting into bees they are scared off with first hand stories and little anecdotes about investing in bees. I sell all of my honey from 60 hives at $7/lb and will just be finishing selling last years crop later this spring just in time to get a dandelion crop extracted. I'm just curious if there are other small scale success stories or is it really the doom and gloom others speak of?


Multiply your colony count by 10 and then tell us how well you are doing. In other words, pay all or the majority of your bills with your bees and then we'll see.

People who say there is no money in bees doesn't know what they are talking about. There's a lot of money IN bees. Just try to get it out.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Doe the OP believe that he could still sell 30,000 lbs of honey(300 hives x 100 lb average) at his current price? At his current building? With his current vehicle?

Crazy Roland


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the best money in beekeeping is by a small sideliner. works from his garage, uses his pickup, may have full time job with benefits, wife sells at market, etc. Its a big jump to realize 100% of your living from the bees. call dutch gold and say they can have 60 barrels for $7 a pound. It would cause a laughing riot in their office.


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

This thread is ridiculous.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Randy Oliver said something interesting recently.
> He was talking about successful beekeepers.
> "Do you want to know how to determine who the successful beekeepers are in your area." he asked?
> "Just look for the ones that are always selling bees in the spring. Bulk bees, packages or nucs, successful beekeepers have more bees than they know what to do with, year after year." he said.
> When I look around at my fellow beekeepers in the PNW, his words hold true across the board.


Yup! The calls for me to fill empty boxes with my over wintered nucs are becoming more frequent


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Duncan151 said:


> Cottage Food Laws very by state and product produced/sold. As far as insurance, the sky is the limit. With my current insurance company I can sell 5K in honey, then sell 5K in maple syrup, then 5K in something else. As long as I do not exceed 5K in any one endeavor, I am covered by my homeowners policy. If I go over that, then other options are available. I think that by keeping things simple, you can turn a profit, if you want to.


But the point should be you need a second job to pay the mortgage. If you want to have a million dollars keeping bees start with two.




beeware10 said:


> the best money in beekeeping is by a small sideliner. works from his garage, uses his pickup, may have full time job with benefits, wife sells at market, etc. Its a big jump to realize 100% of your living from the bees. call dutch gold and say they can have 60 barrels for $7 a pound. It would cause a laughing riot in their office.


You hit the Nail on the head.


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## whitebark (Jul 14, 2004)

The way I see it, my day job pays the mortgage; buy my bees pay for a trip to Maui that I wouldn't get otherwise. That's not so bad.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hell yes I make a little money from my bees, but if I looked at the amount of time I spent on beekeeping I would probably make more money packing shelves at my local Walmart. But as I am retired I am sure having a lot of fun with my bees and I get all the free arthritis treatment I want.
Johno


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

beeware10 said:


> the best money in beekeeping is by a small sideliner. works from his garage, uses his pickup, may have full time job with benefits, wife sells at market, etc. Its a big jump to realize 100% of your living from the bees. call dutch gold and say they can have 60 barrels for $7 a pound. It would cause a laughing riot in their office.


Actually that is (probably) the best money in sideline beekeeping - which is limited to what you can produce and market with a mom and pop operation. In interprise level beekeeping the best money would be in making a smaller percentage off of a much larger operation with lots of employees, and investments in verticle markets. This thread is a little incoherent because different people are refering to both those things as if they were the same. 

I think it's pretty clear that money can be made with either business model because people do - money is also lost obviously.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Just saw this post. There is money in Bee's. Just getting it out to pay your mortgage or kids college is the trick.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I think for a number of reasons. Most try to make their income from producing honey. Honey is difficult to produce. You have to be in an area with good forage. You have to have bees that are able to build up for the flow, not on the flow. You have to be able to maintain powerful colonies but control swarming. Sure, honey has value, but it's difficult to make a profitable crop, and it is expensive to make. I chased the honey crop for many years. Some years were amazing, and some years were a bust. Since I began raising bees and queen for sale, the profitability odds have changed. Seems to me that the dependable money is in the bees. Diversity is the name of the game. I sell enough nucs and queens to cover much of my expenses, and then the honey crop is mine. If no crop, at least the bills are paid. If a good crop...Oh Yeah!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Michael
From a marketing stand point. Is it that much easier finding a bee/queen market then building a honey market?
Cheers
gww
Ps I understand the production part, just curious about the selling part.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

as with most things beekeeping profitability is most likely location dependent for all the reasons mp lists along with to what degree the local market is saturated or not.

so far i have been able to quickly sell out of all the honey and nucs i have time to produce and average about $600 income per overwintered colony. at this point i have very little on the expense side of the balance sheet other than containers and a little bit to replace aged out equipment.

were i to engage in beekeeping full time i suspect that i would be able to produce more than what my local market could support and reach a point of having excess inventory that would not sell out so quickly and possibly not be able to sell out entirely.

to be honest i'm not sure i would want to work that hard anyway. i kept up with my hours last year and after expenses i was able to pay myself about $40 hour for my time. not bad, but the day job pays better with a lot less sweat equity and risk.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

squarepeg said:


> to be honest i'm not sure i would want to work that hard anyway. i kept up with my hours last year and after expenses i was able to pay myself about $40 hour for my time. not bad, but the day job pays better with a lot less sweat equity and risk.


I find that health club savings is worth it. I am always busy with something to do all the time. Now the wife's honey do's keep piling up since I enjoy being in the bee yard more then working project in the house. You are correct about finding a part of the business that makes you money and not trying to make money at all aspects. Honey is a sticky mess but, people love it and I like giving it to them.


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