# today's mite count on a five year tf survivor.



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Are your capped brood patterns still looking good?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

what do you think?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> what do you think?


I can't speak for yours...but at near 10% many of mine would be noticeably spotty.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good call dan. 50% shotgun pattern. what else do would you expect to find at nearly 10%


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> what else do would you expect to find at nearly 10%


I wouldn't be surprised to see some DWV but that's not always the case.
For reasons that I can only guess at....this has been a great year for mites.....meaning the infestations seem bigger and earlier than usual....at least in my yards.

OOOOPS! I see this is in the tf forum. My apologies....I've removed my comments about my treatments.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

beemandan said:


> ....this has been a great year for mites.....meaning the infestations seem bigger and earlier than usual....at least in my yards.


that's what i've been hearing.

no dwv or any other visible sign of bacterial or viral infection. i suspect concomitant nosema however due to the dryness of the brood cells and no new stores despite many pounds of fresh forage coming in daily, they give the impression of starvation, will send a sample to beltsville to check.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

just out of curiosity i put the sample back in the alcohol to reshake and recount them to if there was any difference from the first try. i got 24 on the retest compared to 25 on the first shake suggesting to me that the method yields a fairly reliable number.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Have you tested that hive in previous years to see what counts were at a comparable time? In other words is this trending or the same as in years past and expected to hold into the future. Is this hive typical or is there some reason you chose it to test?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Squarepeg, thanks for the info. Keep us updated on how it fares through the fall and winter. In my operation a hive with that infestation probably wouldn't see spring. Shotgun patterns, yup, the first thing I look for as well.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> just out of curiosity i put the sample back in the alcohol to reshake and recount them to if there was any difference from the first try. i got 24 on the retest compared to 25 on the first shake suggesting to me that the method yields a fairly reliable number.


Don't you wash the mites out of the bees through a screen?

When, as an Apiary Inspector, I took samples of bees to check for varroa mites in alcohol, I used a plastic bag and enough alcohol to float the bees in. The mites dropped to the bottom of the bag where they could be counted.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

crofter said:


> Have you tested that hive in previous years to see what counts were at a comparable time? In other words is this trending or the same as in years past and expected to hold into the future. Is this hive typical or is there some reason you chose it to test?


have not routinely tested any of mine in the past. the is the first one i've run into in recent inspections that didn't have a solid brood pattern, plus it should be filling supers on the fall flow and it's not. it was the abscence of seeing them processing honey in the supers (despite what has been an all out wide open fall flow) that made me go all the way through it. 

interestingly, i would have guessed that this was the strongest colony in my yard based on numbers and the strength of foraging that i have observed at its entrance for the past few weeks. historically this is the only colony that i have that didn't come from my current tf supplier. it is the only one of six that were abandoned on my property in the winter of 2009. i adopted the six in the summer of 2010 but the other five were too far gone. this one survived somehow and this would have been it's sixth winter off treatments. i have made a split each year from it and even used it for grafting. 

i split out a nuc from it with the overwintered queen this year and sold it to flatrockboy. it ended up making an outstanding first year colony for him from which he is harvesting a little honey from this year after drawing out a bunch of foundation and without any supplemental feeding.

the colony has made excellent replacement queens after splitting like this for four years straight but apparently the colony produced from this year's queen didn't have enough mojo.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> Squarepeg, thanks for the info. Keep us updated on how it fares through the fall and winter. In my operation a hive with that infestation probably wouldn't see spring. Shotgun patterns, yup, the first thing I look for as well.


i'm pretty sure this one's a goner jim. i didn't see the queen nor any eggs, they may have offed her already.
most of the brood was capped and there was a little open brood but not much. i'll let 'em ride for the time being and make darn sure they don't get robbed. if they do collapse i'll wait until what brood in there is emerged and then put them mites and all into the freezer and recycle the resources.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Don't you wash the mites out of the bees through a screen?
> 
> When, as an Apiary Inspector, I took samples of bees to check for varroa mites in alcohol, I used a plastic bag and enough alcohol to float the bees in. The mites dropped to the bottom of the bag where they could be counted.



yes mark a double plastic jar with a screen in between them. the bees go in one jar, you put the screened double lid on, pour your alcohol in, screw the top jar on, shake well, invert the jars, and the mites wash down into the now bottom jar leaving the bees up top. the mites sink to the bottom and you count them.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> just out of curiosity i put the sample back in the alcohol to reshake and recount them to if there was any difference from the first try. i got 24 on the retest compared to 25 on the first shake suggesting to me that the method yields a fairly reliable number.


FWIW, on the same vein, I shook 28 mites from a 300 bee sample, then, poured the alcohol through a paper towel to separate the mites and shook again. Counted 8 on the second wash. It wasn't a warm and fuzzy feeling about sample validity.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> yes mark a double plastic jar with a screen in between them. the bees go in one jar, you put the screened double lid on, pour your alcohol in, screw the top jar on, shake well, invert the jars, and the mites wash down into the now bottom jar leaving the bees up top. the mites sink to the bottom and you count them.


And if you washed again w/ fresh alcohol? I did that and found more mites.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

shake a little harder and longer next time lee.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> And if you washed again w/ fresh alcohol? I did that and found more mites.


sorry for not making that clear. it was the same alcohol with the mites already in it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> yes mark a double plastic jar with a screen in between them. the bees go in one jar, you put the screened double lid on, pour your alcohol in, screw the top jar on, shake well, invert the jars, and the mites wash down into the now bottom jar leaving the bees up top. the mites sink to the bottom and you count them.


Just as was instructed at the NYBee Wellness Workshops. I wonder when the equipment catalogs will feature this screened double jar lid?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

View attachment 13928


a picture of the wash jars.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the canadian supplier where i purchased mine phased out the beekeeping part of their operation recently. randy oliver has instructions on how to make one on his website.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Great thread, thanks!
Have you noticed any angriness with this hive?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Great thread, thanks!
> Have you noticed any angriness with this hive?


you are welcome juhani, and i appreciate your contributions to the forum as well. 

no angriness or any other outward behavioral signs. as stated there is no dwv, no dead pupae being drug out, and no sick looking brood, so the shotgun pattern may be somewhat attributable to a failed queen. 

it's clear that something is exacting a significant metabolic toll on this colony as it is loosing ground population wise and failing to add stores in spite of a good flow here. if it turns out they negative for nosema then it has to be a direct result of the high mite load and/or perhaps some less obvious viral infection.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

some of the bees in the infested hive became displaced after the deep inspection yesterday. they are attempting to assimilate into the neighboring hives and at the entrances there is just a little fighting but really more allogrooming. got my reducers and screens installed across the yard today and the infested hive does not appear to be receiving any special attention from would be robbers.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

They are demoralized because of mites and absence of queen?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Juhani Lunden said:


> They are demoralized because of mites and absence of queen?


good question. this colony may be have recently become queenless but is not yet broodless. there is still very strong foraging, housekeeping, and they are guarding the entrance. i do not notice any increase in agressiveness, and i would not suspect there were any problems just by casual observation. so behavior appears normal with the only signs being: the shotgun brood pattern; no queen, eggs, or young larvae seen; not getting new honey stored in a strong flow; overall population less than it's cohorts; and of course the 8.9% mite count.

i have seen colonies that have acted 'demoralized' but this one doesn't have that appearance so far.

my interpretation is that this a colony beginning to dwindle due to high mite load with possible concomitant nosema infection (awaiting lab results). there were signs of dysentery on the front of this hive in the early spring.

my prognosis for this colony is poor, but it will be given a chance to pull through until it becomes a risk to neighboring colonies. on the one hand i would like to isolate it in another yard, but on the other hand i want to be able to keep a close eye on it. i guess i'll leave it here and if i see robbing or the population drops drastically i'll go ahead and euthanize it.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> good my prognosis for this colony is poor, but it will be given a chance to pull through until it becomes a risk to neighboring colonies. on the one hand i would like to isolate it in another yard, but on the other hand i want to be able to keep a close eye on it. i guess i'll leave it here and if i see robbing or the population drops drastically i'll go ahead and euthanize it.


There are often advise given that heavily infected hives should be taken away, so that they don´t spoil the changes of the other hives to survive.

This advise is impossible to follow if you have more bees that just backyard. 

I would leave it there. When I have dwindling colonies, they almost always get robbed. It is handy, they are lighter to carry home.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Juhani Lunden said:


> When I have dwindling colonies, they almost always get robbed. It is handy, they are lighter to carry home.


understood juhani. it's likely that there are feral hives crashing nearby that my bees are robbing so i realize that it's all part of the natural process.

a recent study suggests that there is enough drift when colonies are placed close to each to make a difference even in the absence of outright robbing.

but since i can i'll make every attempt to not allow a strain of mites that brings a colony down to survive by trying to prevent them from being spread after an all out collapse and kill them off by freezing.

i mostly want to wait until there is no more capped brood left on the combs before i put them into the freezer.

any honey left behind will be more useful used later if a hive runs short on stores or for next year's splits.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

The thing that would make this especially interesting, at least to me, is if your other hives have good brood patterns but still had high mite infestations. I'm not saying you should test them all...but maybe one or two? That might answer the question....are the bees surviving because they maintain low mite loads or do they somehow survive in spite of high loads.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good question dan and i agree. i'll be sampling some of the others soon.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Nice thread. Thanks for sharing your efforts!


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Don't you wash the mites out of the bees through a screen?
> 
> When, as an Apiary Inspector, I took samples of bees to check for varroa mites in alcohol, I used a plastic bag and enough alcohol to float the bees in. The mites dropped to the bottom of the bag where they could be counted.


I'm going to try that Mark, thanks.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

samples from this colony went out to beltsville priority mail on monday for nosema counts ect. no results yet. in the mean time they are foraging as hard as their cohorts, drying honey, and they have put on some weight. no dwv, crawlers, or sick brood being removed, and no attempted robbing.

sunday morning's low temp is supposed to dip down in the upper 30's, and our first chance of frost is next weekend. i'll be going through all of the hives soon to harvest what honey i can and give one last inspection to include mite counts on some of them.

many thanks for the replies.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Where do you get those lids?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

dsegrest said:


> Where do you get those lids?


You can get the jars from Propolis-etc in Quebec. www.propolis-etc.ca. Here's a link the catalogue page:

http://www.propolis-etc.ca/assets/img/propolis-etc-2014.pdf#page=72


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

beemandan said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see some DWV but that's not always the case.
> For reasons that I can only guess at....this has been a great year for mites.....meaning the infestations seem bigger and earlier than usual....at least in my yards.


I have found the same thing. High counts in August that I addressed only find that they need addressing again mid-September. Many of the best early flow performers, with big populations were the worst. I think its due to the almost continuous flow and brood rearing.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

got the results from beltsville back today on the hive with the 8.9% mite infestation:

"honey bee tracheal mites and nosema disease were not found in this sample"

i'm still not seeing any outward signs of distress such as robbing or lack of foraging, and the hive feels like it is gaining weight by heft.

our fall flow is trickling down and i'll be into the hive soon to see what's what.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> "honey bee tracheal mites and nosema disease were not found in this sample"



That's got to be comforting. Congrats.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> That's got to be comforting. Congrats.


yep. if they end up crashing at least we'll know it wasn't from those two reasons. had i not taken the mite count i would have simply concluded queen failure. they may indeed have a failed or failing queen but that could be secondary to mite vectored viruses as is postulated here:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016217

so far most of my overwinter losses have looked more like queen failure with some colonies making it until spring with small clusters, no queen, and laying workers. i haven't been finding a lot of frass or diseased brood in the dead outs but i have wondered if mites were involved with these losses. i guess i'll start paying more attention to infestation rates and see if there is a correlation.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Interesting enough, this is a mite year on the other side of the pond, too. Although we had a completely different winter, very warm, very warm Spring and so. We had a cold May, though.

I reckon there is something into the queen thing, and related to it, the availability of pollen forage throughout the year. We have had pollen and nectar dearths in within the season at unusual times. Carnica bees shut down brood rearing and had to be fed, to stop it. Shutting down brood and pollen dearth somehow pushes mite reprodcution. Don't know the mechanism behind it. 

Bernhard


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Just as was instructed at the NYBee Wellness Workshops. I wonder when the equipment catalogs will feature this screened double jar lid?


I have been wondering the same thing. Does anyone have posted instructions for making one?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Randy Oliver's photos essay on making your own double screened jar is at about the middle of this page:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-11-mite-monitoring-methods/


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

dsegrest said:


> I have been wondering the same thing. Does anyone have posted instructions for making one?


You can order them here: http://www.propolis-etc.ca/assets/img/propolis-etc-2014.pdf

Just give them a call. They will ship to the US.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

zhiv9 said:


> You can order them here: http://www.propolis-etc.ca/assets/img/propolis-etc-2014.pdf
> 
> Just give them a call. They will ship to the US.


They don't open until 9:00 and the lids with jars costs $26 but it seems to be a better alternative than making a shaker out of starbucks cups.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Starbucks cups?? :s Randy's mite shaker jars use _peanut butter_ jars ... 








Photo Credit








Photo Credit


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

took a peek into this hive today, (after bringing in the first load of firewood for the season). the colony is pretty small, probably less than five deep frames of bees. most of the brood i saw three weeks ago has hatched. i was able to find a couple of diseased pupae that had already been uncapped by the bees. i opened up about six more capped cells and only found a mite on one larva. the others i opened up looked to be healthy, and i didn't notice any outright sickness in the colony as a whole. it is still fending off robbers.

i was expecting to find them queenless but i found a solid patch of freshly laid eggs approximately 4 inches in diameter. the queen was on the next frame and she appeared healthy. she was runny giving me the impression she was young, but there's no way to know that for sure.

they have been storing some nectar and pollen but they are way too weak for this time of year and our flow is about to be over.

i really thought i would be euthanizing this colony today but after seeing that nice patch of eggs and what might be a new queen i'm tempted to nurse it along for awhile. i'm curious to see if the colony can bounce back from such a high mite infestation.

i'm going to reduce it down to a single deep and feed it to see what happens.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

With a late frost, and your feeding, you may be surprised what a new queen can do. It seems a disproportional number of our hive in the spring are from late requeened hives.

Crazy Roland


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks roland, i hope that i am pleasantly surprised my prognosis for this one is guarded at best.

this hive's current configuration is a medium on the bottom, then a deep, then two more mediums on top. 

on yesterday's inspection i found the two top mediums to be a little over half full of honey by weight with some of it capped and some of it open. the bees were mostly in the deep with a queen, a patch of eggs, and a lot of polished cells prepared for the queen to lay in. there were some stores in the deep, but not much. i really wish i had taken a peek into the bottom medium to see if there was pollen stored there.

if that is the old queen in there she is failing and the colony would be a goner even without the mites. if she is a new queen i think it could possibly have a chance.

it got down into the low 40's here last night and i went out early this morning to see if i could remove some boxes thinking that the top supers might be free of bees. instead i found the bees clustered up at the top. i assume that the cool night caused them to move up onto the open feed up there.

i have pretty much already written this colony off and now i'm not sure if i'll do anything other than see what happens with it. i'm considering removing the deep since there's not much in there anyway and making it a three medium stack, mostly to get the cavity back to a more manageable size and to get the deep frames in the freezer where they will be protected until next spring.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i'm going to reduce it down to a single deep and feed it to see what happens.





squarepeg said:


> i have pretty much already written this colony off and now i'm not sure if i'll do anything other than see what happens with it. i'm considering removing the deep since there's not much in there anyway and making it a three medium stack, mostly to get the cavity back to a more manageable size and to get the deep frames in the freezer where they will be protected until next spring.


Decisions, decisions...

Up here I have the advantage of the freeze so it matters not if boxes below are empty as long as you keep the mice out. If you have written this colony off you can't possibly learn if non-intervention works if you are going to mess with the hive.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Decisions, decisions...
> 
> Up here I have the advantage of the freeze so it matters not if boxes below are empty as long as you keep the mice out. If you have written this colony off you can't possibly learn if non-intervention works if you are going to mess with the hive.


"you can't possibly learn if non-intervention works if you are going to mess with the hive."

So, if the deep is left in place and the bees live, this will prove that "Non-intervention" is effective? 

That's easy!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> So, if the deep is left in place and the bees live, this will prove that "Non-intervention" is effective?


If the hive makes it it will prove that the bees are more resilient than you thought. If you pull the deep out and it makes it what would be your conclusion?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> If you pull the deep out and it makes it what would be your conclusion?


My conclusion would be that the bees made it to spring. 

There really isn't much more that can be said...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Agreed. And if you do nothing and they make it to spring, same conclusion?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

BeeCurious said:


> My conclusion would be that the bees made it to spring.
> 
> There really isn't much more that can be said...





Acebird said:


> Agreed. And if you do nothing and they make it to spring, same conclusion?


Exactly. 

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! 

WE HAVE A WINNER! 

If a single observation is all that's needed to prove your theory, then I would say that you are practicing Nonsensical Beekeeping.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> If a single observation is all that's needed to prove your theory,


What theory? There is no theory but there is logic. If you assume a hive will die and you do nothing and it lives there is a conclusion. If you assume a hive will die and you do all sorts of things and it lives there is no conclusion, just more questions. Logic, not theory.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Too much assuming there, I think. :lpf:

Never ASSUME, because when you ASSUME, you make an ASS of U and ME.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> What theory? There is no theory but there is logic. If you assume a hive will die and you do nothing and it lives there is a conclusion. If you assume a hive will die and you do all sorts of things and it lives there is no conclusion, just more questions. Logic, not theory.


You were pushing your Mad Hatter Non-intervention beekeeping bs. 

Do you really feel qualified to offer advice to someone who is discussing a hive that they have maintained treatment free for five years? 

That's a rhetorical question...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Maybe Ian had a point.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> ...Do you really feel qualified to offer advice to someone...


 Rude and not nice! Everybody is qualified for civilized discussion. Personal attacks are not nice.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

What Squarepeg is describing is typical mite collapse in a partially resistant colony. I've seen it several times in my bees. I always let them die out and then make splits in the spring.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

my first guess too dar.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> You were pushing your Mad Hatter Non-intervention beekeeping bs.


I was discussing one of his options. I could care less what he or anyone else does. That is his choice not mine.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Roland said:


> With a late frost, and your feeding, you may be surprised what a new queen can do. It seems a disproportional number of our hive in the spring are from late requeened hives.Crazy Roland


Very good thread. I just read it today. I thank everyone, and especially to sq. I agree that your hive should have a new queen. As Roland said, she should give you a lot of good things next spring.

I think Juhani asked at one point if the colony seemed angry. Maybe because colonies without queen have this bad temperament initially. Then in a second stage are more slaughter. In the case of your hive none of this came up because they already had a new queen about to start laying. This is my opinion.

Sq . then in the spring if you could tell how this colony is boosting, it would be interesting for us to get a more complete picture.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks eduardo. this hive currently has a strong cluster and adequate stores. will let you know how the brood looks about mid-february or so.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I agree that your hive should have a new queen [...] In the case of your hive none of this came up because they already had a new queen about to start laying. This is my opinion.


Iff this is a new queen then I'd give her a chance. If I've got it right her mother performed tf for 5 years. The daughter may well do better, and might do much better.

Mike (UK)


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

this colony has been less swarmy as well and made 150 lbs. of harvestable honey 2013. i have been grafting from it for the past two seasons. i still have a couple of colonies in my yard from that line, and access to several more that were sold to friends.


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