# newbie disease and pest question



## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Gary, Check their webpage and send them an email or call and ask. They don't mention what kind of bees they sell..........Italians?? Reeseville is fairly close (within 10 miles) to Dadant in Watertown which sells packages of bees. You can order more than Italians from Dadant and they come from California. Keep in mind that late orders cost more.

Watertown is a two hour drive for us.

And thanks for the heads up on the beek class.


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

It's perfectly fair to ask Lapp's where they get their bees from. In fact, it's a fair question to ANYBODY selling bees. If they don't answer, or are evasive, I'd have to really think long and hard about opening my wallet for those bees.

With packages (or nucs for that matter), you'll want to know what kind of medications and treatments they've had. You can expect some mites. You might even expect some small hive beetles. Nosema is also a possibility. Since they're packages, you shouldn't have any brood diseases, although it's possible (unlikely) to have infected bees transfer spores to other hives through drifting. Again, if the seller won't tell you what medications or treatments your packages have had, I'd take a walk with my money to the next seller.

DS


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## Jack B. Nimble (Nov 13, 2010)

If you have an extension apiarist in your state, ask him or her for the inspection records of any vendor of bees or equipment you are thinking of buying from.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

If it were me, I'd simply plan on getting some small hive beetles...have your trap/s ready, and install when you install the packages or hive the nucs. Now, if you don't get the beetles, no loss, even though you're prepared. If you do get the beetles and you're not prepared, it could be a problem. 

However, check and see if beetles have made it to your area yet. Maybe you're far enough north you don't have to worry about them. Even so, they do hitchhike. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Reseller's of packages don't normally riddle the maker of the packages on their management practices. Just as the package maker don't riddle the reseller on how much profit he makes on each package. Many package makers buy there queens from a queen breeder.

There are many cars attached to the train on package bee production.

When purchasing packages-expect to be getting bees that are produced from hives that are treated for the many various pests. Package producers are in business for profit. Taking care of your production stock to be the most profitable includes TREATING. If you don't you don't have bees for sale.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

There are package breeders who do not treat, and sell treatment free, resistant bees and queens. More will move in that direction if we demand resistant, treatment free bees. fwiw, my opinion is that the smart package providers are already moving that direction. The rest will eventually go out of business for lack of business. :lookout:
Before I buy bees, I ask. And if they hem and haw and are reluctant to answer, or tell me they treat, I get my bees elsewhere. 
Regards,
Steven


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

StevenG said:


> If it were me, I'd simply plan on getting some small hive beetles...have your trap/s ready, and install when you install the packages or hive the nucs. Now, if you don't get the beetles, no loss, even though you're prepared. If you do get the beetles and you're not prepared, it could be a problem.
> 
> However, check and see if beetles have made it to your area yet. Maybe you're far enough north you don't have to worry about them. Even so, they do hitchhike.
> Regards,
> Steven


This far north I dont worry about beetles. Yes you might get a few but they dont present a problem with our winters. I do find a few in my traps in spring but I think they come back from Florida with a migratory guy that spreads out over the area. I have gotten them in packages from Ga. but they never take hold


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

StevenG said:


> The rest will eventually go out of business for lack of business. :lookout:
> Before I buy bees, I ask. And if they hem and haw and are reluctant to answer, or tell me they treat, I get my bees elsewhere.
> Regards,
> Steven


I seriously doubt that package companies are going to go out of business anytime soon because of the pressure applied by a minority for treatment free bees. Do you have any idea how many packages are sold in this country each year??? You are certainly entitled to your opinions and desires but hundreds of thousands of packages are sold every year by companies who treat their bees with proper medications and treatments and these packages survive and thrive. Just because you demand treatment free bees , does not mean that package producers are putting out an inferior product, they treat to keep a product available to a consumer. I dont order packages, but if I did I would not hesitate to order packages from any of the large commercial package companies.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I wouldn't call losing 30% of bees in the US annually exactly 'thriving'. 
But regardless, I see a trend towards more mite and disease resistant strains of bees, and it's clear that trend is spreading. 
Treatment-dependent package bees are perhaps not 'inferior'- but like it or not, treatment-free/hygienic/mite resistant strains of bees are what more and more new bk's are wanting. All the 20 or so small scale BK's I know in my area up north here _are already willing to pay extra for such bees_, or at least want to order such queens, and they are learning to make their own splits and queens precisely so they won't have to buy treated packages anymore. It may take time for this trend to effect the really big commercial guys, but in my humble opinion the writing is on the wall.


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

in my opinion it is very difficult for migratory beekeepers to be treatment free and still produce quality queens and packages. moving bees around the country is stressful enough on the bees and now we are being told to put the final blow on them by going treatment free. those on this forum do not understand the "mechanics" and business mind set of commercial beekeeping. many of the people want this chemical free honey and wax but dont think twice about driving to Mcdonalds and knocking down 2 big macs. might as well plan on there being chemically treated bees for many decades to come. to answer this gentleman question fairly, i would count on there being mites and beetles for sure. doesn't mean that it will be a poor hive. just weigh your options and use judgement to make your final decision. bees arent cheap.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

gregstahlman said:


> in my opinion it is very difficult for migratory beekeepers to be treatment free and still produce quality queens and packages. moving bees around the country is stressful enough on the bees and now we are being told to put the final blow on them by going treatment free. those on this forum do not understand the "mechanics" and business mind set of commercial beekeeping. many of the people want this chemical free honey and wax but dont think twice about driving to Mcdonalds and knocking down 2 big macs. might as well plan on there being chemically treated bees for many decades to come. to answer this gentleman question fairly, i would count on there being mites and beetles for sure. doesn't mean that it will be a poor hive. just weigh your options and use judgement to make your final decision. bees arent cheap.


poetry....

People...this thread is about packages...not honey or wax... the bees that you receive in the package will die and be replaced... if the hive that produced the package in the first place was treated...it only means that your bees will be healthier..."resistant stock" does not mean that they do not get pests...it simply means that they fight harder... treated colonies have far less pests than resistant colonies... transferring packages that came from treated colonies means NOT transferring pests... you can request resistant queens for your packages and start with less pests and a better chance of keeping them under control. 

The largest myth that I see over and over is that treated bees are "dependant".... where does such a notion even come from???


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> ..."resistant stock" does not mean that they do not get pests...it simply means that they fight harder... treated colonies have far less pests than resistant colonies...


You're right, resistant stock does not mean the bees do not get pests. And yes, it does mean they fight the pests harder.
But treated bees get pests too, and they die from them too, often enough.
Both treated and non-treated resistant bees can (and do) die from pests and disease. 
By your own words and logic treated bees do not fight pests off as well as resistant bees. Doesn't that make them 'dependent' upon treatments? :scratch:
The goal of resistant bees is not to make them completely free of pests- it's to make them more able to live and thrive despite having a few pests around. Treated bees will never be completely free of pests either.



> The largest myth that I see over and over is that treated bees are "dependant".... where does such a notion even come from???


When we don't agree with something, calling it a myth or a 'notion' is standard procedure.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

We are talking about packages... not nucs...

Package producers schedule treatments in order to diminish the level of mites in the colonies BEFORE they shake packages... this is simply the responsible practice to follow to keep from spending pests throughout the world in the first place. 

There is a natural order to the environment that requires us to at the least ATTEMPT to stop sending things to areas where they were not suppose to be in the first place.

The long-term survival of non-resistant bees when presented with a threat is dependant on time and time alone... treatment is not intended to be used forever, it is used to allow the bees the time that they need to develop their own resistance to the threat...

In the case of packages...you are not introducing chemicals to your hives... you are introducing bees without pests... the queen is what's important here... her genetics are what will make up your hive...not the bees in the package.

Ps... how do you think VD spread across the world in the first place?


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> Package producers schedule treatments in order to diminish the level of mites in the colonies BEFORE they shake packages... this is simply the responsible practice to follow to keep from spending pests throughout the world in the first place.
> There is a natural order to the environment that requires us to at the least ATTEMPT to stop sending things to areas where they were not suppose to be in the first place.


I think that packages from responsible bee suppliers will have fewer pests and disease in them- whether they are from BK's who treat OR from resistant strain BKs. I personally don't believe that conscientious resistant-strain bee breeders have bees with more disease and parasites than suppliers of treated bees. It's not like they make no 'ATTEMPT' to keep disease and pests down- they may do _all kinds of things_ to reduce sickness and pests. Responsible suppliers are just that- responsible. Packages from_ irresponsible_ suppliers will likely have more disease and pests...whether they are from BKs who treat or don't treat.



> Ps... how do you think VD spread across the world in the first place?


Monsanto? :ws :lpf: :lpf: :lpf:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

rrussell6870 said:


> The largest myth that I see over and over is that treated bees are "dependant"....


Probably a more accurate statement would be some beekeepers are more "dependent" on treatments . . .


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Barry said:


> Probably a more accurate statement would be some beekeepers are more "dependent" on treatments . . .


Barry, 

We may not see eye-to-eye on some things, but you just got added to my Christmas list. Lol. You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. The trouble is not necessarily to treat or not to treat...it is to treat WHEN NECESSARY or NOT AT ALL. 

I personally believe that ALL commercial operations should be required to employ (or the USDA should pay for) an entomologist and be required to test and record their pest situations... thus only treating when absolutely necessary.

Unhealthy colonies cannot adapt, nor can dead bees... but throwing chemicals at every hive is not the solution. 

I personally have never met anyone that treats this way, but apparently some of you have.

The issue with a nationwide "cold-turkey" program is that the wave of losses would cause mass crop losses and would ripple into a much much larger problem.... time is still needed for the bees to better defend themselves...its not their fault...they are exactly what they are suppose to be...WE brought this on ourselves and just need to face that and work together till nature has resolved our mistake.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I got on the treatment free bandwagon when I re-entered beekeeping a few years back, after doing research on the problems now facing bees since I last kept them. 

My point all along is that one cannot go treatment free cold turkey. That is a sure recipe for disaster for the beek. You start with resistant, or treatment free bees and queens...as one poster mentioned, it is the genetics the queen brings that makes all the difference in the probability of the colony's survival without treatments. I have bought my bees from very large package producers, who produce treatment free, and from very small producers who do likewise. And from a couple of commercial operators who sold bees and queens as a sideline. 

In visiting with the migratory commercial operator I bought some queens from this past spring, I got the impression he was desperately trying to find a way to go chemical free and maintain the health of his operation. He wanted to do this basically for the bottom line of his operation. Healthier bees meant less cost to him, which equals more pollination and honey production, and more profit. 

I simply do not think any _responsible_ beek would suggest the whole country should go cold turkey. What I have been suggesting since becoming a member of this forum is simply this: Almost all of us, sideliners or commercial beeks, requeen regularly. A program of requeening with resistant queens would move a commercial operation chemical free in a reasonable amount of time.

Yes, there are horrendous difficulties and pressures on commercial beeks. Not all of us sideliners are ignorant of those realities. My heart goes out to them, whether they "farm" bees, cattle, wheat, corn, chickens, it doesn't matter - the economic pressures are enormous. But the smart ones have seen the writing on the wall, and are trying to cut their overhead while at the same time improving their stock. And that is not an impossible goal. 
Regards,
Steven


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

Everyone had to get their bees from somebody or hive a swarm that came from somebodies hive. It is what you do with the bees after you get them that makes the difference. When I first got bees I ordered queens from 5 or 6 queen producers, made splits and overwintered my bees. Winter is the great selector, come spring what was left was what I split and made more bees from all the time not treating with anything but a SBB. I have bees now that winter with large clusters, have good spring build up and don't slow down laying until 15 October and then for only about 2 1/2 months. In late Jan or early Feb they start laying again. All with no treatments except a SBB and feed in the fall if they need it. There are bees other than Russians that you can keep that you don't have to treat. If you have bees that do not have to be treated and you raise queens from those bees the next generation of queens and bees will be even stronger. If you can raise four or five generations in a season what will your bees be by the end of the season. I raise a bunch of good queens evaluate them for different chartastics and pick the best and graft a few queens from that queen, the next batch I do the same thing with the best of that bunch. Every queen gets better. But if you are buying queens that you don't know anything about how can you improve your stock. You are taking someone else's word for what their mama did. Just my two cents.

PS There are some good queen breeders, but there are some queen assembly lines also.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

some of the judgmental language here is un-necessary, but in all honesty, it doesn't have to be an all or none issue here.

I think rrussell's last post hit the nail on the head. 

everyone's situation is different though when it comes to using pesticide chemicals in the hive.

some bee's biology can take going "cold turkey" just like some people can do that when quitting using drugs (prescription or otherwise), other bees can't. Just like people.

greg and pka are right that commercial, migratory beeks work in a very different scope and that scale of beekeeping requires a different perspective. because of that, they will require different solutions to dealing with parasites and disease.

Tossing around labels like "responsible", "ir-responsible" and "good" or "bad" doesn't do anything but galvanize the discussion here. 

I can respect that folks like pka and greg and others are working on a scale with thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of bee hives. I'm not going to pretend that the situations they deal with in terms of sheer volume, making financial ends come together and paying proper attention is the same thing as me and my hopeful future 100 to 200 hives

I became a licensed pest management professional in my state (got to have the license to offer services for hire, that's what the license does for me, nothing more) to add another facet to my business to make it a full time venture along with the beekeeping side.

What I have learned in my training, education and experience to accomplish that has forced me to take a step back and re-consider what I "know" as I look at beekeeping overall, with all the different scales of operation. There is no single, universal "right" or "wrong" here. only spheres of difference.

The IPM plan I design for a 10 hive operation in Town Alpha is not going to be the same as the plan designed for the 100 hive operation in the same area. Both of which will be different form the 1000 hive operation just outside of that same town.

The plans will be specific to the needs, environments and capabilities to enact the controls to meet acceptable levels of "pest" presence.

There is a growing demand, especially by smaller scale beekeepers, to buy bees already bred for resistance to mites and diseases. There will be producers who will change their operations to make those sales and serve that market.

There will be other beekeepers who have different needs and obligations and scales of operation and there will be producers who will arrange their business to meet those beekeepers needs, as they have done and still do.

Ultimately, there is no all or none here folks. There are different situations requiring different solutions. It would be better for all of us in the discussion if we keep that in mind before we go judging each other based on what we know from our own unique situations. 

enjoy the bees.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Couldn't be more true, Scdw43. And bigbear, you will be a great asset to this industry... rarely have I seen such an understanding from someone with less than 100 hives... I will gladly help you develop your Apiaries in anyway that I can... this industry needs more people like you.


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## Jack B. Nimble (Nov 13, 2010)

bigbearomaha said:


> There is a growing demand, especially by smaller scale beekeepers, to buy bees already bred for resistance to mites and diseases. There will be producers who will change their operations to make those sales and serve that market.
> 
> There will be other beekeepers who have different needs and obligations and scales of operation and there will be producers who will arrange their business to meet those beekeepers needs, as they have done and still do.
> 
> enjoy the bees.


And no matter how deligently you breed your stock and keep them mite-free, there will always be another beekeeper nearby with drones of an unknown lineage carrying mites resistant to who knows what.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

very possible. this is why many beekeepers requeen every year so as to prevent those "other drones" from mixing up the genetics. 

yet another non-chemical control method that is used successfully by smaller scale beeks.

I've heard of bigger scale folks doing it but it gets to be more problematic depending on the human to hive ratio to accomplish that.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Again commercial operations follow all these same practices...no matter how many hives we have.. we requeen hives to produce higher outputs each year (and yes, we know each and every hive just as well, if not more so than the guy with 10 hives in his yard... so we do not just throw new queens in ever box and move on... we keep notably exceptional stock for drone production and grafting).... and most large commercial operations do their own grafting and queen rearing and keep track of how long each colony has gone without treatment and how healthy and productive they are as well as how well their control hives are doing in order to compare.

Good beekeeping practices are not news to the large commercial operations.... in fact, that's where the knowledge of "good beekeeping" comes from... they can run a series of tests in one season that can cover more than a lifetime of studies on ten hives... its simple math... there are a much much higher number of colonies, thus there are many many more variables that can be covered at once. Another thing that I seem to notice is that people think that the large commercial operations do not have time to work their hives. This is where having great staffs of skilled professionals comes in.... in reality there are more than just one great mind in each hive in a large operation, thus adding to its series of checks and balances...


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> Again commercial operations follow all these same practices...no matter how many hives we have.. we requeen hives to produce higher outputs each year (and yes, we know each and every hive just as well, if not more so than the guy with 10 hives in his yard... so we do not just throw new queens in ever box and move on... we keep notably exceptional stock for drone production and grafting).... and most large commercial operations do their own grafting and queen rearing and keep track of how long each colony has gone without treatment and how healthy and productive they are as well as how well their control hives are doing in order to compare....


POETRY as you say...

We are far more dedicated to hive inspections the bigger our operation grows, time consuming?? YOU BET... but well worth the effort, staying on top of pests, disease, honey production, and queen issues is the heart of staying profitable. When I had just 5 hives losing one was not such a big deal (it happens)...maybe I missed a sign or symptom, maybe I was too busy to check them on a consistent basis, or just decided not to check them this week because "bees are coming and going they must be fine".. Gone are the days of 5 hives and a minimal loss of one....now those missed or poor inspections cost real MONEY in the form of 10, or 20, or 50 (or more for larger commercial operations) hives that had I noticed the signs and symptoms in time....would have been salvageable and saved hundreds or thousands of $$$dollars$$$. We dilligently inspect and solve problems, if we didnt we would be out of business quickly. 
This past year we spent a lot of money on good breeder queens, made decisions based on genetics and references, a great many phone calls (thanks to all who put up with my pestering) and a huge amount of time not only producing the best queens for our operation but for our customers who purchase our cells and mated queens, we produced a good honey crop, sold some bees, and now going into fall/winter are faced with the decisions we all face whether you have 5 or 10,000...how best to get them through winter and into spring!!! To assume the commercial guys dont inspect, care, or strive for better and healthier bees is preposterous!!.....We all know genetics are the answer but i guarantee you "cold turkey" is not...over time though I think genetics will lead to fewer and fewer treatments being necessary. Im looking forward to the day VD is but a minor problem and SHB are a thing of the past.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Slightly off topic. 

Do you need to worry about pest/disease from the queens that you order in?

Thanks,

Dan


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Not really in the form of hitch hikers, but more so in the area of resistance.


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