# Queen excluders



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Question: Without a queen excluder how do you keep the queen out of the honey?

Answer: The queen is not looking to lay all over the place. When you end up with brood in honey supers it's because one of two things has happened. Either the queen was looking for a place to lay some drone brood, which you didn't allow in the brood nest because of either culling it or using only worker foundation; or the queen needed to expand the brood nest or swarm. Would you rather they swarm? The bees want a consolidated brood nest. They don't want brood everywhere. Some people try to have some capped honey as their "queen excluder". I do the opposite. I try to get them to expand the brood nest as much as possible to keep them from swarming and to get a bigger force to gather the honey. So I add empty bars in the brood nest during prime swarm season. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#excluders

Isaac Hopkins was quite eloquent on the matter and here's what he had to say on the matter in The Australasian Bee Manual:

“Queen Excluders... are very useful in queen rearing, and in uniting colonies; but for the purpose they are generally used, viz., for confining the queen to the lower hive through the honey season, I have no hesitation in condemning them. As I have gone into this question fully on a previous occasion, I will quote my remarks:—

“The most important point to observe during the honey season in working to secure a maximum crop of honey is to keep down swarming, and the main factors to this end, as I have previously stated, are ample ventilation of the hives, and adequate working-room for the bees. When either or both these conditions are absent, swarming is bound to take place. The free ventilation of a hive containing a strong colony is not so easily secured in the height of the honey season, even under the best conditions, that we can afford to take liberties with it; and when the ventilating—space between the lower and upper boxes is more than half cut off by a queen-excluder, the interior becomes almost unbearable on hot days. The results under such circumstances are that a very large force of bees that should be out working are employed fanning-, both inside and out, and often a considerable part of the colony will be hanging outside the hive in enforced idleness until it is ready to swarm. 

"Another evil caused by queen-excluders, and tending to the same end—swarming—is that during a brisk honey-flow the bees will not readily travel through them to deposit their loads of surplus honey in the supers, but do store large quantities in the breeding-combs, and thus block the breeding-space. This is bad enough at any time, but the evil is accentuated when it occurs in the latter part of the season. A good queen gets the credit of laying from two to three thousand eggs per day: supposing she is blocked for a few days, and loses the opportunity of laying, say, from fifteen hundred to two thousand eggs each day, the colony would quickly dwindle down, especially as the average life of the bee in the honey season is only about six weeks. 

"For my part I care not where the queen lays—the more bees the more honey. If she lays in some of the super combs it can be readily rectified now and again by putting the brood below, and side combs of honey from the lower box above; some of the emerging brood also may be placed at the side of the upper box to give plenty of room below. I have seen excluders on in the latter part of the season, the queens idle for want of room, and very little brood in the hives, just at a time when it is of very great importance that there should be plenty of young bees emerging.”


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I thought this was a good read.

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

IMHO, queen excluders, sometimes referred to as honey excluders creates a perceived crowded condition that increases the propensity for your bees to swarm. Once your hive swarms, you have not only lost half your bees, but also allot of honey production as well.


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## Daddy'sBees (Jul 1, 2010)

I use them for an entirely different reason. I use them on all of my post cut-out hive of bees. It keeps a fat and laying queen inside her new, yet forced upon, hive for her to now live in. Prior to the cut-out, she has no lost weight, such as when she's ready to swarm, and she is too fat to pass through the excluder. Just point out another use for them.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

I took excluders off my hives last summer, and I will not return them. Yes there was brood in the medium super, in the center frames. And drone brood. When those emerged and the fall nectar run started, those cells were filled with honey. 

This year I put the darkened frames back in the center of the box. I already have 2 full boxes and just added another super to my strongest hives with the frames I just mentioned. This is my 3rd year, and the bees are booming, as is the honey production. Who knows how many swarms I lost last year. Several I'm sure. I was originally taught to use one deep, then excluder, medium box. This is common in southern Florida. 

I follow Michael's teaching as he wrote, and it's working wonderfully for me. I am looking for greater honey harvest which already seems to be happening. I am very pleased with my bees this year.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

I am someone that has nothing bad to say about queen excluders....

1. I run single deeps. I do not want to have to inspect both top and bottom boxes for queen/swarm cells in the spring. During the heavy flow, you really need to inspect weekly to keep them from swarming. There are some that will tell you that with 2 brood boxes, the queen will stay out of the honey supers and they won't swarm since the queen, supposedly, has plenty of room to lay. NEITHER IS TRUE!! She will go where she wants and they will swarm. Plus, it's too much weight to lift the top box when doing inspections.
2. My hives PACK their supers full of honey even with an excluder. How? Top entrances. I place a shim of some sorts between the excluder and the honey supers. Bees love the top entrance. Also helps with ventilation in drying the honey and keeping the bees cooler in the heat. I take this shim and actually open up the hole a couple of inches wider.
They're cheap and really make a difference. 
http://http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/10-Frame-Imirie-Shim/productinfo/211/
Unless you are a big time commercial or a very busy sideliner beekeeper, excluders,if used wisely, are actually very helpful in you controlling your hives. Don't let the "anti" crowd scare you with their "honey excluder" stuff....


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Michael Bush,

I also question the key points you quote from Isaac Hopkins in your post when using a top entrance.

Ventilation and the reluctance of bees to move through the excluder to deposit nectar. When using a top entrance, I would think the excluder would have a different effect.

First, with a top entrance, the warm air from the nest is naturally rising, and if the excluder indeed reduces air flow, it should only counter the more rapid exiting of heat through the top somewhat and the net result should be a cooler hive - but not a chilled nest. And the hive should still be well-ventilated overall - particularly with the presence of a drone escape of some sort, which would draw in cooler air on the bottom.

In terms of being a "honey excluder" with a bottom entrance, it would seem that the opposite effect would happen with a top entrance. In this case, if the bees are reluctant to move nectar through, then that should keep the nest area less congested to some degree, and make the nest even less apt to get backfilled by a nectar flow.

I don't see how the typical arguments against an excluder apply so readily when employing a top entrance. It just doesn't make sense, as they are two different arrangements.

Adam


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I don't see how the typical arguments against an excluder apply so readily when employing a top entrance. It just doesn't make sense, as they are two different arrangements.

First, you must have a bottom entrance if you have an exlcuder or the drones can't exit. Assuming that is a small entrance and most of the traffic is at the top, they still have to cram through the excluder to get to the brood nest. Have you ever watched bees going through an excluder?

"Beginning beekeepers should not attempt to use queen excluders to prevent brood in supers. However they probably should have one excluder on hand to use as an aide in either finding the queen or restricting her access to frames that the beekeeper must want to move elsewhere" -The How-To-Do-It book of Beekeeping, Richard Taylor


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Okay, but given the fact that the excluder has been in use for a long time, and that beekeepers using them have still had honey supers above them filled sufficiently with honey to keep on using them, the bees have to be going through them fairly efficiently. 

So if you don't want most of that nectar going through to the broodnest anyway, then whatever difficulty there is is only going to work in your favor - and the bees aren't going to neglect the need for food in the nest, so that will still get done, some through the excluder, and some through the smaller, bottom entrance. 

Have I ever watched bees going through an excluder? No. Have you? If so, did you notice if they were transferring nectar at all from bee-to-bee to avoid going through it?

I've seen a lot of beehives during a flow with a small upper entrance and a large lower one. And there are times when that upper hole - no matter how small - is almost as busy or busier than the lower one. These are hives with excluders, and those beekeepers never had a problem with "honey excluding" or excessive swarming.

That suggests to me that the bees have a sense of what is most efficient. Maybe they don't, but it seems like they do. If that is true, and if the bees find that an excluder makes them inefficient, then an opening above and below the excluder should allow them to drastically lessen the amount they have to pass through it. And if it is difficult - or inefficient to pass through it, then it seems likely that they will pattern their activities to avoid it.

So an argument against an excluder on a hive with only a lower entrance cannot be the same for a hive with an upper, or with an upper and lower, because in each case, the excluder is in a different place in the sequence of motion through the nest for the bees.

I'm not saying you're wrong, or that Hopkins or Taylor is either. I'm thinking through the situation and trying to reason the points offered to a point where I understand them, and can reconcile them with what I think and see myself. I'm just questioning the ideas. 

Just because a successful beekeeper like Taylor says it's right, doesn't mean it is. Because from what I can see, most successful beekeepers who write/wrote books (no matter what era they wrote in) spend a lot of the book talking about how most other beekeepers are doing things all wrong.

Makes it kind of tough to choose which advice to take, but I appreciate having it to consider just the same.

Adam


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

If you are running one sized supers then you won't need an excluder. You simply swap frames top to bottom and add new frame for queen to lay in...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> > Have you ever watched bees going through an excluder?


Yes I have. Actually quite a bit in trying to understand the resistance of using such an excellent tool. The ease at which workers slice through a excluder is amazing. It is virtually effortless. Perhaps those big fat prairie fed bees  out west have trouble, but our sleek VA bees barely even slow down.


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## Ron5252 (Jan 19, 2011)

This is actually a very good debate with some great ideas and observations. My typical set up is a screened bottom board on top of a solid bottom board (to hold a debris tray). I use two deep brood boxes with medium supers for honey. I also use a queen excluder above the brood boxes to keep the queen below. I have found that come June when the white clover is blooming, my bees pack the bottom two boxes leaving only 3 or 4 frames open before moving into the medium supers. I never really put two and two together but began to realize that the brood area became honey bound. I actually encouraged this to allow the Italians plenty of stores going into the dearth of summer and fall. What I really did was create smaller clusters going into fall and winter, which ending in me loosing colonies over winter still laden with honey stores. 

So I tried using a shim (the one Better bee sells as a spacers) that has a hole in the middle. That ending in an absolute disaster two years ago when the bees filled the space between the brood boxes/queen excluder and the medium honey supers with wax and nectar. So I moved this spacer above the top honey super and under the inner cover to provide an upper entrance along with the bottom entrance full open. Some bees used this top entrance under the cover but not to the degree I thought they would. It really became another area for guards to protect with very limited activity. 

So long story short, I have personally experienced using queen excluders that resulted in honey production reduction and honey bounding of the brood areas. I do not want the queen laying in the honey supers though. So I have to find a way to place a small enough shim between the brood boxes with a queen excluder and the medium honey supers that will prevent or reduce burr comb build up in this space. I am thinking of severely reducing the bottom entrance or closing it off. However, if I do this then I guess in need a drone escape on the brood boxes so they can exit. Again not really the path I want to go. So I think my best bet is to reduce lower entrance. My thought process is to divert as many forgers into the entrance above the brood boxes. 

Does anyone have a suggestion on who sells a narrow shim that could be used to create an entrance without or limiting the space such as created by the Better Bee spacer? My thought is this set up will “encourage” the bees to store excess nectar in the mediums instead of in the brood area. The bees will know how much to put below and removing the excluder and mediums in the summer will allow for winter storage.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

I'm with theriverhawk on excluders.

John Kennedy, a PA apiary inspector commented that it takes about five years for a beekeeper to get their feet under them. I didn't understand until I had been at it for as long. This year's mistake takes until next year to fix. Last year's idea becomes a good one this year. After enjoying success, kicking a bad habit is easier than embracing change.

I use excluders to keep her highness out of my comb honey supers. When she did get by me, I was rewarded with extensive drone comb. I also found afterwards the girls filled the drone cells and their cocoons with honey. Neither IMHO is conducive to crush and strain or appetizing to me.

I don't advocate for excluders, don't have anything against foundationless, wish I had more success with top bar hives and am glad to find support here.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

I have always used excluders with my single deep hives and have never had problems with swarming or getting a crop. I think hive configuration and type of flow may make a difference, I don't know. I think it is a personal thing, do you want to deal with brood in the supers or not? Does it help you in managing the hives the way you want? 
Excluders are just another piece of equipement, another tool, use them or don't. It's really up to you, either way you will be right.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I run three mediums for brood and mediums for honey supers, I have never used excluders. I do get a small amount of brood, mostly drone in the first honey super, and usually only on the middle few frames at most. When it hatches they fill with nectar. I do think there are benefits to an upper entrance, I have never used them but after reading all that has been posted on this subject I am considering adding one to my hives. I don't think I want to completely do away with some size of bottom entrance, I think it has benefits also. A bottom entrance, even a small one of only an inch or so combined with a top entrance would provide better ventilation in the heat compared to a hive with only a top entrance. A smaller bottom entrance may encourage better brood production in the lower box. I seem to notice a lack of the bees willingness to raise much brood in the lowest box, possibly because of the large entrance and their inability to control temperature in that area of the hive. 

I would rather deal with a little brood in the supers than to use excluders. Another thing, with just an upper entrance over the excluder and no bottom entrance, what happens when bees full of pollen have to crawl through the excluder to get to the brood boxes, does pollen get knocked off their legs sometimes? John


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## Ron5252 (Jan 19, 2011)

John,

Great point on the pollen and temp/ventilation topic. I think that is why I am leaning on reducing the bottom entrance and finding a way to provide an entrance between the brood boxes and honey supers. If I offer both, the bees will pick which one they want to use.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I think that having just a top entrance would create a huge cloud of bees looking for their entrance when you are inspecting the brood chambers for any length of time. I know Michael Bush uses all top entrances and claims that it isn't a problem with all the bees looking for the entrance that isn't there anymore, maybe he has a greater tolerance for standing in the middle of all that chaos. Anyways, giving them the option of a bottom entrance also may relieve that, I guess I'll have to experiment with it. John


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Excluders work very well for us & they help to keep the the comb in the honey supers nice & white.
I have found that people that have problems with excluders just do not understand how to use them and yes it takes time to understand the bees & why they seem to not care for them.
It is so much easier in the hot room & while extracting to not have to fight with the bees & brood problems in the supers that the bees wont leave when the bee-go pads are put on!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't have a problem with excluders and I know how to use them, I just have other uses for them other than keeping queens out of honey supers. John


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## Dynasty (Sep 25, 2011)

theriverhawk said:


> I place a shim of some sorts between the excluder and the honey supers. Bees love the top entrance.


How thick are the shims?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I have always used excluders with my single deep hives and have never had problems with swarming or getting a crop.

I second that statement. There are management techniques that may take a dose of experience that create a situation where the excluder presents no impedance to honey deposition in the supers. See if there is a correlation between excluder use ,and experience and honey production levels. A well populated hive may show little reluctance to cross and excluder, when a poorly populated hive.
leaves the super empty.

Crazy Roland


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## Ron5252 (Jan 19, 2011)

So Soupcan and Roland please share with me how you guys use queen excluders. I am relatively newish (if that is even a word) and I am trying to learn through experience. So far I think I have made many mistakes over the course of the past three or four years and I am willing to listen and learn. I have used queen excluders each year when putting supers on. I am only speaking from what I have seen and it seems like my bees really pack out the brood boxes before entering the honey supers. 

I really do not want my queens laying in my honey supers but am beginning to believe that the excluders are “encouraging” the bees to deposit the nectar in the brood boxes rather then in the honey supers. These brood boxes are feeling like they are 70 or 80lbs before I see any bees in the mediums above my excluders. And as I stated earlier the bees do not seem to be very interested in top entrances.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I was seriously leaning towards the POV that I would ignore queen excluders (and not use them), then I discovered what toads had been doing to my hives (depopulating them), for how long, I don't really know. I also read about Michael Bush's ideas about 8-frame medium supers, top/upper entrances and screened bottom boards, also, about the same time I read Jerry Hayes POV, "Queen Excluder or Honey Excluder?". So I synthesized; combining the ideas of Screened Bottom Boards, Slatted Racks, Drone Escape Entrances, Queen Excluders, Entrance Rim/Shims, and additional upper entrances created by offsetting supers.

When I'm running colonies for honey production this configuration is unparalleled, but I only stumbled upon using it, because of the local abundance of unrelenting, voracious, bee-eating toads. And I may never have put these things together without the help of Michael Bush, Jerry Hayes, and others willing to discuss this subject.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Ron5252 said:


> . . . And as I stated earlier the bees do not seem to be very interested in top entrances.


So, only give them the entrance(s) that you choose for them to use. Take charge of your bees. Don't let them take charge of you.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Dynasty,
I've used entrance rim/shims that were 1/4" to 3/4" thick, they've all worked fine. Of course the bees will fill any extra space with comb/propolis/and honey, but they even do this between supers without the presence of an entrance shim/rim. Presently I prefer entrance rims that are about 1/2" thick and look like -->

​With the entrance beneath a small piece of #8 hardware cloth this upper entrance shim/rim acts as a robber screen too.​


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Another thing that I do, which evolved out of this atypical configuration, is to attach end cleats at both ends of all my supers, attached even with the top edge of the super, effectively reinforcing the weakest part of the supers, where the rabbet has been cut to create the shelf for the frames to hang from. When the end cleats are attached here, on both sides, they not only help to keep the supers strong, but they also provide excellent support for lifting and carrying the supers. They also make it easy to slide an upper super back a little bit, creating an entrance on one edge. With these end cleats, it is no longer expeditious to assist mother nature in the process of destroying the integrity of supers, by grinding holes into the sides most of the way through the otherwise perfectly good wood composing the sides and ends of our supers, as is the common practice (called hand holds). I always found it amazing that beekeepers would add cleats to their supers, but attach them where they wouldn't reinforce the weakest part of the supers -- what's up with that?
​Of course if you use other traditional hive components, like outer telescopic covers, they would need to be modified to accommodate the dimensions with cleats. Inconvenient, but not impossible.​


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## BeeTax (Dec 27, 2011)

When creating upper entrances by sliding the hive body back, doesn't that allow rain into the hive? In Joe's area with little rain and low humidity I can see that not being much of a problem, but in my area I'm concerned it would cause a lot of mildew.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I made some entrances the same way, when I was on Whidbey Island in Oak Harbor, Washington. Rain just ran down the inside walls of the hive and out the bottom. It's not like the entire top of the hive is being exposed, only some of the rain is actually contacting the outermost edges of the combs. But different hives behave differently in different situations and locations - so it's difficult to say how doing this will affect bees in Florida vs Arizona. I'm also using SBB (Screened Bottom Boards), which would permit any rain that does enter the hive to most easily exit via gravity.

I only choose my stronger hives to configure like this, but even all my Nucs (except condo mating nucs), have similar entrances, year-round.


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## BeeTax (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks, I'll give it a try and see what happens. Besides the rain I'm also concerned about providing additional access for SHB.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm always baffled and laugh at some reasons people won't use something that will benefit them. A top entrance shim directly over the excluder is the ticket. Yes, they will build a tad of comb and fill with honey in this 1" gap. It's not like they are building an entire hive there. Geeze...
I just scrape that off and consider that my little snack/reward when I get back in the truck!! 
If you purchase the plastic excluder and the wood shim, it's an $7 investment per hive that makes a HUGE positive difference. (And the silly "Plastic Excluders are from the Devil" comments begin.....now. I've used them for years and see ZERO difference except they are lighter)
I take the shim and jig saw the hole another 2" or so wider. 
http://http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/10-Frame-Imirie-Shim/productinfo/211


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

share with me how you guys use queen excluders

We run a single deep, then an excluder. When the bees are covering 5-6 frames of brood, and the weather has warmed, we hang frames of capped brood above the excluder, is a slightly set back super(no extra pieces to maintain/buy). This is done every 12-14 days, with the now empty brood frame returned to the brood chamber.

Crazy Roland


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Yes, I run excluders on every production hive. Most times I run a single deeps with excluder followed by a 3/4 inch shim with a 2 x 1/2 inch upper entrance and then mediums or shallows. I give plenty of empty drawn comb to each hive. If the bees are reluctant to use the upper entrance, I'll close down the bottom entrance for a couple of days and then reopen using an entrance reducer for drones. I have virtually zero problems with swarming and get great yields compared to others in my location. 

I'd like to thank Joesph, theriverhawk, Roland, and others for sharing their experiences. This is one of those topics that comes up many times during a given season. It always seems as though we have to start this discussion from scratch with the "honey excluder" comments. I've been keeping a mental record of the responses over the years and it seems that the pro excluder crowd is strong with many experienced beekeepers stepping up to share their positive results. Managing colonies is obviously a very personal endeavor, and I always encourage people to experiment and find what works best for their given situation, but it really disappoints me when I repeatedly see the "honey excluder" comments. It is simply not true.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Of those who run bees for a honey crop, and choose not to use queen excluders, for whatever reason, I would like to hear how your hives are configured, and your honest reasons for not using them. Perhaps you aren't willing to try different configurations.

I would also like to hear from those who have tried this queen excluder configuration (similar to that described in the Jerry Hayes POV), and have not been able to keep the queen out of the honey supers, not obtained a honey crop, not been able to keep predators from eating bees at their hive entrances, not been able to keep the brood nest area less obstructed by nectar and more available for the queen to use for brood, and not reduced the occurrence of swarms.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I can't speak for swarms because I have not experienced one yet but as a newbie, and Michael did recommend newbies not use them, I had a problem getting the bees to go up into the supers when all I had was foundation. When I took the excluder off the bees went right up in the supers and filled them up. The first year I did not get brood in the honey supers but I was convinced that they weren't necessary. The next year when I did have drawn comb I got some brood up in the top boxes but the fall flow back filled the supers and there was no brood to deal with come extraction time.
Most of you people that are for excluders seem to have a lot of experience and that is good for you but newbies don't have that experience and also newbies are starting with foundation and you are not.
As a newbie I recommend newbies keep the excluder in the shipping box it came in or you can try to be an expert the first year. Let me know how that goes for you.


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## Jon11 (Mar 29, 2011)

Roland, 
Do you overwinter in a single or a double? If it is a double do you just find the queen in the early spring, make sure she is in the bottom and then put on the excluder?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

A single deep, above another deep,(with or without empty frames) below. The bees do not use the bottom deep. It is there for dead air space. They are reversed and the excluder inserted, when the weather warms. The queen will not be in the lower unused box. It is easier for them to stay warm when they are next to the roof, rather than having the empty super above them when it is cold.

Crazy Roland


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## Jon11 (Mar 29, 2011)

Roland,
That's interesting. I would have thought your winters would be hard enough you would need that extra deep full of honey. I think I'll give that a try next year. How many frames of honey are you looking for when you go into winter?


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

If you feel like the bees are not going up through an excluder, especially when all you have is undrawn foundation up there, then there are usually one of two problems:
1. There really isn't a true honey flow on yet, so they aren't really looking for the need to grow and store
2. You haven't given them a reason to move up.

Either way, the reason/way to get them to move up is feeding. I will spray each frame with a mist of sugar water that has a little Honey B Healthy in it. It really causes them to move up. I feed with 2 qt Collins type feeders that require an empty medium box on top. It feeds directly on top of the frames, again, causing the bees that have come up to get the sugar water off the frames to, often, stay and feed. This will, usually cause them to start drawing out the upper undrawn foundation. 

I'm doing this right now with one hive that is an absolute wax building machine. As I am selling a few nucs this spring, I'm trying to go ahead and have as much drawn out brood frames as possible for when I make 3 frame splits into 5 frame nucs. This one hive will draw out an entire 9 frame brood box in just over a week if I am feeding. Bizarre how strong this hive is. The only reason I don't make queens off this hive is because they are also a propolis making machine too. I DO NOT want all my hives like that!!! But that's another story.

Anyway, if you are wanting your bees to go up through the exluder, give them a reason...fresh sugar water!!


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## ChickenChaser (Jun 6, 2009)

theriverhawk said:


> ... one hive is an absolute wax building machine...if you are wanting your bees to go up through the exluder, give them a reason...fresh sugar water!!


Hawk - what is your sugar:water ratio and is it the same if no HBH used?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

theriverhawk said:


> 1. There really isn't a true honey flow on yet, so they aren't really looking for the need to grow and store
> 2. You haven't given them a reason to move up.
> 
> Either way, the reason/way to get them to move up is feeding.


Feeding is not an option for me and certainly not spraying honey supers with sugar water is not an option.
If Item #1 were true taking off the queen excluder would have made no difference. If you have to bait the bee to go through the excluder it clearly says to me that it is an obstruction that you have found a way to get around. In an other topic the obstruction characteristic of the excluder is use to create a soft barrier in a two queen hive. It is hard not to think of an excluder as an obstruction when it acts as an obstruction.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Ace's story is a classic example of a rookie mistake (no offense Ace), but this is one of the reasons that has led to such misunderstandings. 

My approach is different than theriverhawk's. First, I recommend to inexperienced beekeepers to never put an exlcuder under bare foundation. This is usually a setup for disappointment. What usually happens is that they have a single or double deep brood chamber and slap the excluder and a brand new box of foundation on top of the excluder. Often this is done too late in the season further complicating the issue. Depending on the situation bees may be very reluctant to start drawing comb and storing resources on this foundation. The obvious result is swarming. Instead, I recommend to those who want to use an excluder to simply place the box of bare foundation directly on top of the brood chamber WITHOUT the excluder. Check back in 4 to 5 days if still no action you can bait them up as theriverhawk suggests, or if running all the same size frames simply pull a couple of frames up into the super. It could also be that there's no flow. When you check again and bees are actively working the super (storing nectar or laying eggs), you can then install the excluder followed by an upper entrance. Of course check to see if the queen is above BEFORE placing the excluder on - if so then move her down below. Also, if the queen has laid eggs up top, be sure to check back in a few days for queen cells. You can throttle down the bottom entrance to gradually redirect traffic up through the top. However, I will also just close off the bottom after all the field force has returned for the evening and simply let them sort it out the next morning. Be sure to give them some sort of drone entrance in the lower boxes.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

Chicken,
It's 1:1(ish) in the spring. If I'm making it for just a couple of hives, I just take 1 qt jars, fill 1/2 or tad over 1/2 full with sugar then add really hot water to shake and mix. Honestly, alot of the time, I just put a pot of water on the stove and get it right to boiling. That way, when I add it to the jar of sugar, there is zero problem with the sugar dissolving. This may not be actual 1:1 but the bees take it well and they draw out comb, with it too. 
If I'm making big batch for feeding 10 or more hives, I actually do shoot for a real 1:1. I've got a 5 gallon bucket(from Home Depot) that actually has measurements on it. 3 1/2 gallons of sugar and then I fill and mix with boiling water until it hits the 5 gallon mark. 
As far as HBH, I just keep it to the label directions. 1 tsp per qt. Adds up to about 1/3 cup for 5 gallons. If I'm not using HBH, I'm probably going to make sure that the sugar to water ratio in qt jars is accurate 1:1. If my memory serves me correct, the jar should look more 3/4 full of sugar to melt down to 1:1. Honestly, I look at the HBH as an investment. It's, apparently, good for them and it keeps the sugar water from souring early. There are some that say you can put a small amount of bleach in your sugar water to keep it from souring. Do a search on here to find the ratio there. I've done it before. It works.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Acebird said:


> Feeding is not an option for me and certainly not spraying honey supers with sugar water is not an option.


What's the objection to spraying bare foundation with a little sugar water? 



Acebird said:


> If you have to bait the bee to go through the excluder it clearly says to me that it is an obstruction that you have found a way to get around.


Of course it does. The question is does this obstruction benefit the beekeeper? Some say yes and some say no. I say a resounding YES!





Acebird said:


> In an other topic the obstruction characteristic of the excluder is use to create a soft barrier in a two queen hive. It is hard not to think of an excluder as an obstruction when it acts as an obstruction.


 Yes, it obstructs the queen (most times) exactly as it was designed.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

Ace,
Bees are not going to "go up" into or draw ANYTHING , excluder or no excluder, if there is not a flow or simulated flow. Yes, the excluder really isn't needed, yet, if there is not a flow on. But if the flow has started, the spraying will intice them to crank up a little early. Once they are up, and the flow is on, they will continue to use this upper box....especially if I offer them a top entrance. 

Ace, it is an obstruction. You dang right. It obstructs the queen from laying in honey supers. It is NOT a worker obstruction unless you make it/allow it to be one. As I said, if they aren't going up, then the flow is NOT on. At this point, there's really probably not a need for an excluder. I use it for insurance, to keep the queen down and from laying in the upper supers, fresh drawn or fully drawn. 

Look, just admit that you hate excluders and there's nothing anyone can say that will make it any other way. Those of us that use them are trying to give others our postive experiences with them and let them choose. My suggestion to all the "negative nancy's" is to just zip it after you've said, "I don't like them because I think my bees don't make as much honey". There's really nothing else to say after that except keep badgering and, thus, making those of us that use them defensive and, sometimes, angy. 

Now, back to the conversation....

Actually, Astro's approach is a good suggestion. I just choose to not allow the queen to get the opportunity to start laying up there. Either way is fine really. One positive about Astro's approach is that once the queen lays a little up top, the bees will stay up there to "protect" the brood. 
I do tend to keep a frame or two of honey in my garage freezer for doing just what he was talking about. Another way of baiting them up. I'll put a frame or two up there, they move up and once they get cranking, I'll take those frames out and replace with undrawn for them to fill out. I also keep these frames around for when emergency feeding is needed.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

theriverhawk said:


> Look, just admit that you hate excluders and there's nothing anyone can say that will make it any other way. Those of us that use them are trying to give others our postive experiences with them and let them choose.


Exactly, let them choose. You want a discussion where they can hear just your side. We have heard it. The problem is you want new people to believe that the "excluder" only creates an obstruction to the queen but then you are doing all these tricks to get the worker bee to go through the OBSTRUCTION. Is anyone saying it doesn't work for you? No. But some of us are saying it may not work for them, and this is why. I am sorry that makes you angry.
I don't hate a piece of equipment. It can be used to confine a queen if that is your goal for what ever reason. Finding the queen is a good reason for me because I have a hard time with that. I don't need to find the queen to fill supers with honey.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

Ace,
But here's the deal...all you can say is, "I don't like them. Don't use them." It sounds like it bothers you that we are "manipulating" the bees to do what we want them to do successfully. It almost sounds a little jealous and maybe even childish the way you respond to our suggestions. Those of us that do use them can offer folks that are curious many different options as to how to get them to work to their advantage. I can show someone how to get them to draw foundation while still using an excluder and/or get them up and working drawn foundation. Astro has offered how to use them AFTER he gets the bees drawing the foundation in the super. Newbies are asking questions and we are showing them different options. You, my friend, are just trying to hammer everything we say to try to get the newbies to NOT use them. But you really don't offer them any legitimate reasons except the "honey exluder" comeback or a scare tactic of "you won't be able to get them to go through the excluder without manipulation"...heck, isn't manipulation all we do when we feed, split, checkerboard, etc....do I need to keep naming the ways we manipulate?????

Again, for those that originally were asking and were curious...listen to those of us that are using them successfully. Try the options that we offer. If after you try them, and it's not for you, or you'd like to give it a try without an excluder, give her a shot!! I would encourage you newbies to ignore the poopy pants folks that think it's "Their way or the highway". There is no "correct way" to raise bees...heck, they really raise us if we want to be honest.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

> Exactly, let them choose. You want a discussion where they can hear just your side. We have heard it. The problem is you want new people to believe that the "excluder" only creates an obstruction to the queen but then you are doing all these tricks to get the worker bee to go through the OBSTRUCTION. Is anyone saying it doesn't work for you? No. But some of us are saying it may not work for them, and this is why. I am sorry that makes you angry.


I've gone back...I can't find where you actually offer an actual "why" it may not work for them...We've heard your side. "Don't use them". What more is there to say? There's no why to offer except, "honey excluder, obstruction, blah blah blah..." Meanwhile, numerous folks can offer numerous different ways that they do work. 

New beekeepers...if you are curious about using exluders, my advice to you is EXPERIMENT, EXPERIMENT, EXPERIMENT...use an excluder with top shim entrance on one hive. Keep another hive totally open. Just give it all a shot and determine which way works best for your bees, the amount of time you can spend with your bees, etc....


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

> What's the objection to spraying bare foundation with a little sugar water?


"I'm afraid it might work, I just hate excluders and I want to be closed minded..." Ace 

My quote there because it's actually how he portrays himself in regards to this issue...


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

How many frames of honey are you looking for when you go into winter? 

Zero. Honey is valuable. Fill them up with good feed. Make that super ALL full. 

Crazy ROland


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

You will get more honey without an excluder. You will get more bees without an excluder.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

Mac....you can't say that unless you can prove it and, if my memory serves me, there's no actual documented proof of your statement. I had hives in my previous town that made more honey than close by friends' hives and they don't run excluders.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

mac said:


> You will get more honey without an excluder. You will get more bees without an excluder.


In the 1980's I started using excluders for a couple of years and then stopped for a couple of years when I heard that I might get more honey without them. While not using them, basically I had to sort 1/2 frames of brood/honey out when I extracted (We don't have a fall flow). Then I used half and half for a couple of years. While I didn't count each bee, I couldn't see any difference in honey or hive size.

I tried removing the excluder after a super was capped only to find brood in the bottom few inches when I pulled the supers to extract them. So now I use excluders on all honey producing hives.

The comments above on how to use them are good. With drawn comb you can just put them back on above the excluder (especially wet) and they will have the wax repaired and ready to go in a couple of days. With foundation only, leave the excluder off for a couple of days until they start drawing wax and then add the excluder, after making sure that the queen isn't already up in the top box.

I think that experience with flows is more important than experience with bees when talking about excluders. You need to know when flows are and how strong they are. Putting supers (or excluders) on too early to too late can complicate the situation. If inexperienced beekeepers don't try excluders just because they are inexperienced, how will they learn?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

theriverhawk said:


> I would encourage you newbies to ignore the poopy pants folks that think it's "Their way or the highway".


Hmmm, amazing what you say. I agree.
I would encourage newbies to not take on too many manipulations to begin with. Two or three years down the road when you have learned the basics you can experiment to your hearts content. Beekeeping doesn't have to be hurried.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

theriverhawk said:


> Mac....you can't say that unless you can prove it and, if my memory serves me, there's no actual documented proof of your statement.


 Well I did say it. Let me remind you this is a forum for people to express their opinion. Opinions don't need proof that's why it's an opinion


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

Ace,
I would, graciously, disagree with you. You have been allowed to share your opinion. We know what it is. "Newbies, don't use excluders." What I am uncomfortable with is that every time someone else shares how an excluder can be used, you chime in and knock their idea and method. The reality is that if we did provide a completely foolproof way of using the excluder, it's pretty obvious that you'd still not use it. That's fine. It's completely fine to say on here, "I don't like them because......" Just lay off of the others' responses that have worked or our responses to newbie questions That's my issue here on the forum. 

Mac...you're right, too. I wasn't saying, literally, "You are not allowed to say that." We are allowed to share our opinions. I'm ok with you disagreeing just as I am with Ace. But it's one thing to disagree. It's another to disagree based on evidence. If you share your opinion and we disagree, we are going to show/discuss where you may be wrong or ask you to back up this opinion. Just as with the past discussions with Ace on this topic, I'm ok with him having a different opinion. But be able to logically back up why you think my method is wrong with practices of your own. It's one thing to say, "I disagree". It's another be able to say, "I disagree and here is why because of what I have seen/experienced." I've seen where an excluder has made ZERO difference in honey gathering. I've had hives with excluders that had MORE honey than hives without. Have you worked hives enough to show the results that you believe? If so, share your stories of hives/yards that excluders hurt your honey production. That would give newbies things to think about because of your actual experiences. Instead, folks come on here and make blanket, unsupported statements like, "You will get more honey without excluders."

Remember...the opinion of scientists years ago was that the earth of flat, too. How'd that turn out?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

theriverhawk said:


> Ace,
> But here's the deal...all you can say is, "I don't like them. Don't use them."


When someone puts words in other people's mouth they discredit their argument. I never said anything of the kind.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't want brood in my honey supers because I don't use the same size boxes for hive bodies (to move those frames to) and don't want the off color frames. 

I've learned a nector flow and a strong colony is what is needed for the them to draw out foundation the best. So, when I put a super on that is new foundation I don't use an excluder, if at all, until after they have drawn out the center frames in the honey super. 

I use a honey barrier to help prevent the queen from moving into the honey super. Remembering bees work down during this time, I use an excluder only when there is no honey barrier and there are drawn frames in the super above the brood area where she might have a chance to move up. I pull the excluder off once there is honey in the middle of the super or I can move capped frames there to stop her.

Or course if you find the queen moved into the honey super you can put her in a lower box, put an excluder on and then the brood will emerge from the honey super without the queen having access to the lay new eggs in the super.

I've seen the queen move up past a thin honey barrier only once in my observation hive which is an eight frame. I don't harvest from the observation hive so no big deal. Now the frame has dark areas because of it. Not sure if that effects the honey or not.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

MDS said:


> Or course if you find the queen moved into the honey super you can put her in a lower box, put an excluder on and then the brood will emerge from the honey super without the queen having access to the lay new eggs in the super.


As a newbie, I find this difficult to find the queen and catch the queen without killing her. Not that I have tried. I do own a queen catcher but I have read that queen catchers kill more queens than they catch.
I am more than willing to experiment on riverhawk's hives so I could follow in his footsteps though.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks everyone (Well, almost everyone) for your input on this thread. Obviously the use of queen excluders has it's purpose and if used correctly, depending on your needs, can be a valuable piece of equipment. Nice tips here I will refer to this summer.
Lauri


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Ace,

Queen catchers are pretty safe but there is a little finesse that has to be used. This season practice on some drones while your hives are open. You'll get more confident the more you use it.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Lauri said:


> Nice tips here I will refer to this summer.


Yes, I have to agree. Good tips I haven't heard before.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

theriverhawk said:


> Ace,
> Instead, folks come on here and make blanket, unsupported statements like, "You will get more honey without excluders."


 I stated my opinion. You will get more honey without excluders. I don't disagree with your observations they are your observations and when stated here they are your opinions. There are many references listed early that are pro and con all are someone’s observations and opinions. They could all be referred to as blanket statements. Some say you will get more honey some say it makes no difference. Why do ya think your observations and statements are more valid than anyone else. It's still your opinion.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I am just a honey producer and run my hives in a single deep. For every excluder that fails it cost me about $100, because I can't harvest honey with brood in it. Everyone runs there operation differently, but for me excludes all the way. 
7 year honey avg. 127 lb per hive.:thumbsup:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Charlie B said:


> Ace,
> 
> Queen catchers are pretty safe but there is a little finesse that has to be used. This season practice on some drones while your hives are open. You'll get more confident the more you use it.


Hey Charlie, that is a good idea. I never though of practicing with drones. Thanks.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

It took me some time to feel like I had a handle on the queen excluder as well as several other aspects of beekeeping but now I really like the queen excluder. Once I locate the queen I like to keep her in the bottom box so that I know where she is most of all. I also like to be able to know specifically where the fresh brood and eggs will be along with her. since I know where the queen is it makes inspections less tricky because I don't have to wonder which box she is in. Once the bottom box starts jamming with like 4 or 5 frames of brood in a ten frame box I move two frames of brood up into the box above the excluder leaving the queen below and either add in two undrawn frames of two empty combs for the queen to lay in. This seems to have worked well for me last year. The bees didn't swarm, they drew plenty of foundation, I felt comfortable when looking through my hives and having the queen excluder saved me time when I needed to take some frames of brood to make splits or shake nurse bees into my cell starter and things like that. My honey production was okay not incredible but I don't think that the queen excluder hurt how much the bees produced. I think that the bees won't go up into a completely empty box as readily if there is an excluder between it and the brood chamber but leaving the excluder off until there is some wax being drawn or bringing some frames of brood up above the excluder seems to remedy that. I think that is the part that a new beekeeper may not quite grasp because they are trying to find the queen and my even be overwhelmed by getting stung and identifying drone comb and brood comb and bee bread etc. It was a bit overwhelming for me the first year and I ended up with brood scattered around the hive and I had my feeder lid come off and my bees got robbed and drown and I was not very good as I learned the hard way. Part of that first year of making mistakes was what pushed me to join beesource and re examine the basics and really try to understand more clearly what I could do to improve. Taking a class on Queen Rearing and pulling off some grafting and getting to see the work of some of the beekeepers on here that I think of as the best I can find has been awesome. I am off topic but I would like to salute Od Frank, Mike Palmer, Michael Bush, Mark, Crazy Roland, Katarina, WWW, Barry, Lauri, Charlie, Ace, Joseph Clemens, Big props. A rating to David Laferney!!! Big Props to Oldtimer, Ray Marler, Tasmanites, A rating to Vance G, There are more but I am just really grateful to be part of this forum that has changed my life.

Other beekeepers helped me wrap my head around using an excluder but in conjunction with what Ace had mentioned it did take me a bit of time to get a handle on using one. In my case it did take some time to get it. When I found info on the Demaree method of Swarm Prevention that put a light over my head as far as moving combs around in the hive and using an excluder. It's a PDF but I think that this will take you to it. It's the country rubes link :thumbsup: 

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt...ention&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-900


Demaree Technique was never mentioned in our bee group But I will be including it as hand out for the bee course this year. I found the Demaree method on line and provided a newer beekeeper could understand using the Demaree technique it may help them use an excluder if they wanted to do that. I once tried to extract a frame that was mostly honey but had a little drone brood in it and it was not pretty. Larvae went in the honey. I didn't make that rookie mistake again. I also had a queen lay eggs in my Ross Rounds and that was not pleasant so for me using the excluder is something that I now really enjoy. I like the wooden bound metal excluders because you can torch the wax off of them if they start to get clogged with wax and they are easy to spot between the hives. The plastic ones sometimes get stuck in such a way that when I try to take them off they slap back on the bees and agitate them. They are less expensive so I do have some plus you can cut them for making queen confinement things and stuff so they have plenty of value but for just putting between the boxes I like the wood bound metal ones. They are expensive but anyway. That's a bit of my thoughts on using them. It took me some time but I really like them at this phase of my beekeeping mindset. 

Off topic but I love this video Thanks for posting this od

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWujzDDUERM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUdeOrgFk3sLorf8olIvQeog


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Another enlightened convert. Congrats on sifting through all the negativity and welcome to the QE club.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a direct link to the "Demaree Swarm Prevention" PDF document _Virginiawolf _referenced in post #66:

http://countryrubes.com/images/Swarm_Prevention_By_Demaree_Method.pdf


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Hey VW............ congrats for coming over from the "Dark Side!"

I use QE and love em.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks Virginiawolf for a very enlightened post and thanks to all those who have given us an insight into their many years of experience in the use of queen excluders, I consider them a very useful tool in beekeeping when used properly, I wouldn't beekeep without them.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Good post Virginia Wolf, you convey the excitement and confusion and mistakes that most of us made when we were new at beekeeping, and you give insight and hope for those who are new at it now. 

You mentioned about not being able to find a queen well as a new beek when trying to use a queen excluder. I must say, having the queen end up on the wrong side of a queen excluder can be a frustrating problem, to say the least. So, here is how to prevent that very easily. Any frames that you want to move up above the queen excluder, give them a good shake down into the bottom broodnest box or boxes before moving it up above the excluder. This will knock off the bees and queen for you. A few bees may still be on the frame, but so few that it is then much easier to spot a queen if she is there. She usually is not there, she is usually one of the first to fall down off the frame. Once the frame is then placed above the excluder, bees will then come up through the excluder to manage that frame as they need to.


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## Cascade Hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

virginiawolf said:


> I am off topic but I would like to salute Od Frank, Mike Palmer, Michael Bush, Mark, Crazy Roland, Katarina, WWW, Barry, Lauri, Charlie, Ace, Joseph Clemens, Big props. A rating to David Laferney!!! Big Props to Oldtimer, Ray Marler, Tasmanites, A rating to Vance G, There are more but I am just really grateful to be part of this forum that has changed my life.
> 
> Other beekeepers helped me wrap my head around using an excluder but in conjunction with what Ace had mentioned it did take me a bit of time to get a handle on usi]


2013 "Post of the Year"


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## labradorfarms (Dec 11, 2013)

From what the guys in my Bee Club all said! The excluder cuts back honey making ........
I am a new guy buy don't intend on using it!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

labradorfarms said:


> The excluder cuts back honey making ........
> I am a new guy buy don't intend on using it!


Uh, the Guinness world record for honey production from a single hive is held by someone who used Queen Excluders........nuff said....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

snl said:


> Uh, the Guinness world record for honey production from a single hive is held by someone who used Queen Excluders........nuff said....


Not! How about from his whole apiary?

The QE has a purpose, to restrict the queen from laying in a box you the beekeeper doesn't want. It is a beekeeper manipulation so the honey yield will be more dependent on how the beekeeper uses it than the bees. I haven't heard one beekeeper except for you, suggest that it is used to increase honey yield. Most will say it can decrease the expansion of the hive and therefore lower honey yield. If the foragers have to pass through it each and every time it is is sure thing it will decrease honey yield. Many people use upper entrances to avoid that problem.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Not! How about from his whole apiary?
> 
> The QE has a purpose, to restrict the queen from laying in a box you the beekeeper doesn't want. It is a beekeeper manipulation so the honey yield will be more dependent on how the beekeeper uses it than the bees. I haven't heard one beekeeper except for you, suggest that it is used to increase honey yield. Most will say it can decrease the expansion of the hive and therefore lower honey yield. If the foragers have to pass through it each and every time it is is sure thing it will decrease honey yield. Many people use upper entrances to avoid that problem.


So, is honey yield more dependent on how the beekeeper uses the excluder, or whether or not you use an excluder, which one, you can't have it both ways.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It's always dependent on the beekeeper whether you use an excluder or not if you are doing comparisons.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I haven't heard one beekeeper except for you, suggest that it is used to increase honey yield.


Well, you don't have to look very far to find a beekeeper that disagrees. Besides _SNL_, there is a similar comment regarding excluder use by _The Honey Householder _in post #64 above in this thread. It should be easy to find, since Ace made post #65.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Ok Ace, what generally produces more honey, using an excluder or not using one? If using an excluder, which produces more honey, how the beekeeper uses it, or, how he doesn't use it? If not using an excluder, which produces more honey, how the beekeeper doesn't use it, or, how the bees like not having an excluder?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, you don't have to look very far to find a beekeeper that disagrees. Besides _SNL_, there is a similar comment regarding excluder use by _The Honey Householder _in post #64 above in this thread. It should be easy to find, since Ace made post #65.


He is not saying the bees don't produce the honey he is saying he can't harvest it for human consumption.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jmgi, create a poll and see what results.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

HoneyHouseholder gets less honey when not using excluders, its that simple.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> He is not saying the bees don't produce the honey he is saying he can't harvest it for human consumption.


OK Ace, here is your earlier statement _again_:


Acebird said:


> I haven't heard one beekeeper except for you, suggest that it is used to increase [HIGHLIGHT]honey yield.[/HIGHLIGHT]


"Honey yield" is a reference to _HARVEST_, isn't it? Now lets look at Ron's earlier post ...



The Honey Householder said:


> For every excluder that fails it cost me about $100, because I can't[HIGHLIGHT] harvest honey [/HIGHLIGHT] with brood in it.


Seems clear to me ....

:gh:


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Ace, HoneyHouseholder is a honey producer, meaning, he must harvest honey, or extract it from the comb to sell it. He doesn't harvest and extract as much honey when he doesn't use an excluder on each hive. It doesn't matter that the bees still produce honey and store it in the supers when no excluder is used, if there is brood in the supers, he can't harvest the honey when he needs to.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

jmgi said:


> HoneyHouseholder gets less honey when not using excluders, its that simple.


Well, not really. One needs to know _the whole story_ behind how one manages hives for honey before we simply say it's all the excluder. There's more to it than that.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Create a poll and see what the results are. Be careful to define the goals. To be accurate it should be categorized based on how many years experience the beekeeper has. Define "honey yield". To me it means how much the bees produce to others it might mean how much honey they can sell. Not all beekeepers sell honey.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> Define "honey yield".


Define "honey" as well.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We have all heard the numbers. Something like 2 million flowers to produce 4 pounds of nectar which is eventually reduced to 1 pound of honey.....or something like that. The point being that bees are incredibly busy and productive little creatures. One sashay through a wire excluder isn't going to slow them down much. Ever see an aggressive hive "boil" up through one? It's almost instantaneous. Or a robbing event where bees will exploit the tiniest crack like an invading army breaching a castle wall?
What you do need to remember about excluders, though, is that it alters their behavior to a degree and certain rules should be followed. Hives need to be large enough to occupy the space both above and below the excluder, they need to be on a pretty active flow and ideally they should have at least some drawn comb above the excluder to entice them upwards if you are expecting to get foundation drawn out. If you don't follow these basic rules a smaller hive and/or a lighter flow will treat the excluder as a barrier and may well choose to begin backfilling the brood nest instead of moving through the excluder relegating a hive into a sort of shrinking death spiral with a lower chamber full of honey and virtually no brood or bees. 
Top entrances while not mandatory are indeed a good thing, allowing the bees easier access and more efficient dry down of nectar. Just be careful if initially putting on a lot of drawn/wet comb above an excluder because of the danger of robbing in the first hours after supering if there are top entrances and lots of large neighboring hives and the honeyflow has been disrupted because of the weather. It does take even a large hive an hour or so to adequately occupy and defend the space. Ideally you would not give the bees any sort of top entrance for a few hours or even days until things have settled down a bit. Follow these basic rules and remember that first and foremost to maximize the hoarding instinct of bees, they need both empty comb directly above the brood nest (excluder or no) and room for the queen to lay below the excluder. If the hives are large and growing and there is a flow in progress, everything else will take care of itself.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Barry, I was speaking specifically of HH here, this isn't just my opinion, it's what HH himself said. Producing honey for your complete livelihood is different than a sideline or hobby as I'm sure you know. When your running close to 1000 hives, those pounds of honey that you are unable to extract because of brood add up fast.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I never meant to imply that using QE's produce more honey, just that they were not necessarily honey excluders. Again, look to the Guinness Book of World Records if you think using them inhibits honey production... Using them may in certain instances, but for me personally, the benefit outweighs any loss.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Jim, :thumbsup: As you said, a hive needs to be ready and able to deal with an excluder, and if they are, an excluder will do very little to slow them down going through it. I have not used them and used them, and I find them to be a useful tool to increase my honey harvest, not decrease it. Having brood in the supers when you want to extract is counterproductive. Sure, you can harvest frames with no brood and leave the frames that have brood in them. But then you either have to replace the frames you removed and/or start consolidating honey frames with brood in them, etc., just way too much extra work and time for a commercial operation. Now, for a hobbyist, taking the extra time to sort through everything to harvest some honey, that's fine.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mleck said:


> Is it necessary to always use queen excluders on each hive? I have some people tell me they do not use queen excluders but how do you keep them out of your supers?





Michael Bush said:


> Question: Without a queen excluder how do you keep the queen out of the honey?
> 
> Answer: The queen is not looking to lay all over the place. When you end up with brood in honey supers it's because one of two things has happened. Either the queen was looking for a place to lay some drone brood, which you didn't allow in the brood nest because of either culling it or using only worker foundation; or the queen needed to expand the brood nest or swarm. Would you rather they swarm? The bees want a consolidated brood nest. They don't want brood everywhere. Some people try to have some capped honey as their "queen excluder". I do the opposite. I try to get them to expand the brood nest as much as possible to keep them from swarming and to get a bigger force to gather the honey. So I add empty bars in the brood nest during prime swarm season.


If you go back to the first and second post I will make an assumption that the OP does not have 1000 hives and MB gave the answer to his question.

I could care less if someone wants to use a QE. As Jim L posted if you use one you better know the right time and place to use it because as MB stated it could back fire.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't disagree with MB very often, but I do disagree to some extent that queens don't lay all over the place, because they do, and yes, maybe it is for some of the reasons he stated. I tried using a box of honey as an excluder instead of a queen excluder, and it failed in some instances, its not perfect. Everyone develops a beekeeping philosophy over time, MB chooses to let his bees have all the brood room they need rather than confine them with an excluder, if they happen to lay in a honey super, its no big deal for him, I'm sure he just harvests solid frames of honey around the frames of brood. He doesn't depend on bees for a living as far as I know, he has a day job.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Something that just came to me, this year when I was experimenting with not using excluders on a few hives, I had a hive in one yard that was a single deep and six mediums high around mid summer, no excluder. When I went to check to see what I could harvest, I found that every single box had some brood in it. The top 3 boxes had large patches of brood, mostly worker and a little drone, in about 2-3 frames in the center of every box, the rest of the frames were nearly all capped honey. I decided not to mess with extracting just the honey frames and leaving the brood, I figured I'll come back in about 3-4 weeks and by then the brood will be hatched and cells filled with honey. When I came back she had layed the same frames up with brood again, and there was even less honey left in the other frames that were originally nearly full. To make a long story short, I ended up not getting any honey off that hive, they ate it all. We had a dearth followed by a very poor fall flow. I figured I lost out on at least 125 lb. of honey because I didn't use an excluder. And to top it all off, the hive was dead as of about 2 weeks ago.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Oh, in case you are wondering, no the hive didn't starve out, it was mites.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I don't disagree with MB very often, but I do disagree to some extent that queens don't lay all over the place, because they do, and yes, maybe it is for some of the reasons he stated. I tried using a box of honey as an excluder instead of a queen excluder, and it failed in some instances, its not perfect. 

A queen will cross any number of boxes of capped honey to meet her drone quota...

>Everyone develops a beekeeping philosophy over time, MB chooses to let his bees have all the brood room they need rather than confine them with an excluder, if they happen to lay in a honey super, its no big deal for him, I'm sure he just harvests solid frames of honey around the frames of brood. 

Anymore I don't harvest until it's cold and there is no brood. I harvest by the box.

>He doesn't depend on bees for a living as far as I know, he has a day job. 

I do.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

This has been posted many times before, but perhaps our new folks would get some value at reading this:

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/

I simply can't imagine running more than just a few colonies without an excluder. I extract at least twice per season, and sometimes three times. Managing brood in the supers would absolutely bring that to a halt. Waiting to extract everything until it got cold would eliminate the marketing different seasonal varieties, which my customers strongly demand and allows me to charge a premium for the product. As mentioned above, QE's are really very easy for the bees to move through. Just take some time to observe how effortlessly bees move through them. As Jim mentioned above, this is a tool and like any other tool we use there are certain rules for its use. If you break these rules the bees will let you know, which I suspect has resulted in the total misnomer "honey excluder". I don't know if a QE will increase yield, but if used properly certainly will not reduce your yield. See the Jerry Hayes article above for a good summary of yields with and without QE's. I am completely certain that QE's result in a massive increase in efficiency when pulling honey.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Actually, if you read the Jerry Hayes POV, "Queen Excluder or Honey Excluder?". You will see their results to indicate that using queen excluders properly, produces both more honey and more brood/bees.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

There was a time when I didn't use them, and just managed the brood in the supers, but I didn't have nearly the colonies that I do now. I can't see me going back to not using them again, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages imo.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Joseph Clemens said:


> You will see their results to indicate that using queen excluders properly, produces both more honey and more brood/bees.


You're correct, but because of the relatively small number of colonies in the study the statistical variation probably doesn't result in a definitive "winner". The point I take away from the study is that QE's certainly don't hurt yields. That conclusion is also validated when I compare my yields to others in my area not running QE's.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Also, of course, there is the added benefit, with the conjunction of upper entrance use, of losing fewer colonies to predation by nocturnal insect-eating creatures, be they skunks, toads, or whatever loves eating our bees. There are enough enemies our bees have to deal with, at least we can hinder some of them.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I'm embarrassed, that I had been avoiding queen excluders (honey excluders), for several decades, but hadn't considered the logic of providing colonies main entrances, above the excluder, as is described in the Jerry Hayes study. It made me feel a little, "behind the eight-ball", but I was able to get over it, try the alternate configuration, and soon had excellent success using them, and fewer problems with insectivores eating my hives into oblivion.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I did a little experiment based on the Jerry Hayes study too, the few hives that I tried upper entrances on this year all outproduced hives with bottom only entrances. I don't think it was a coincidence.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Post 93


> He doesn't depend on bees for a living as far as I know, he has a day job.


That is my point. There is an overwhelming majority here on beesource looking for information that don't make a living on bees. Using a QE requires work, knowledge and attention to detail. You don't just throw it on and walk away.

Now for the other comments about QE's in conjunction with upper entrances. This proves that QE's are a restriction and do lower yields if not used in conjunction with an upper entrance. The one negative about upper entrances is that all the foragers will now come in the top of the hive when you open it and for some newbies this could be intimidating.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Using a QE requires work, knowledge and attention to detail.


So does inspecting a hive, determining the condition of a colony, finding a queen, evaluating whether a flow is happening, splitting a hive, harvesting honey, selling bees, raising queens, building equipment, or .... virtually all other aspects of _*beekeeping*_.
:lpf:



:gh:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> So does inspecting a hive, determining the condition of a colony, finding a queen, evaluating whether a flow is happening, splitting a hive, harvesting honey, selling bees, raising queens, building equipment, or .... virtually all other aspects of _*beekeeping*_.


You don't need to find a queen, evaluate whether a flow is happening, sell bees, raise queens, build equipment, and splitting a hive is a no brainer so I disagree.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Using a QE requires work, knowledge and attention to detail. You don't just throw it on and walk away.


I have used queen excluders mostly for when I wanted to prepare frames for use in nucs or queen castles. 

I have never considered using a QE as "work". Their use, in my opinion, is one of the least laborious beekeeping tasks.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> I have never considered using a QE as "work". Their use, in my opinion, is one of the least laborious beekeeping tasks.


It can be but if you stick with convention and only have a bottom entrance you are going to want to pull that excluder out after you (the bees) have established a honey cap. You are going to want to put it back in when the flow tapers off and the box on top is not filled with honey. So now you are picking off boxes of honey to get the QE back in. It can be more work. How do you make sure they are not backfilling? More inspections.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Now for the other comments about QE's in conjunction with upper entrances. This proves that QE's are a restriction and do lower yields if not used in conjunction with an upper entrance. The one negative about upper entrances is that all the foragers will now come in the top of the hive when you open it and for some newbies this could be intimidating.


My personal experiment using upper entrances combined with QE showed better honey production in a side by side comparison with hives using bottom entrances and QE. But I wouldn't want to make a blanket statement and say that this same outcome should be expected in all hives with the same setup, beekeeping is just too diverse to make that claim. Its like comparing apples to oranges.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Post 93 Now for the other comments about QE's in conjunction with upper entrances. This proves that QE's are a restriction and do lower yields if not used in conjunction with an upper entrance.


Brian,
I respectfully disagree, the only way you could know this for sure would be to do a comparative study of 2 hives of similar strength, both with top entrances but only one hive would have an excluder. 

Your conclusion could be based on the fact that upper entrances allow bees quicker access to the storage area and possibly has nothing to do with a queen excluder.


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## Harvey Wray (Nov 14, 2009)

Acebird said:


> You don't need to find a queen, evaluate whether a flow is happening, sell bees, raise queens, build equipment, and splitting a hive is a no brainer so I disagree.


You can just let them go until they die also.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WWW said:


> Your conclusion could be based on the fact that upper entrances allow bees quicker access to the storage area and has nothing to do with a queen excluder.


Absolutely! I willing to look at the data however it is presented. How do you explain more yield simply by using a QE?

How about this? Where is the QE placed and at what time? Top of the first deep, the second deep, the third deep, a deep and a medium, two deeps and a medium, yada, yada, yada. The QE by design is meant to restrict the queen which is a force against nature. When ever there is a force against nature the outcome is not so predictable.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

WWW, I assume you are talking about two hives, neither of which have a bottom entrance, only top entrances, and only one hive has the excluder, just wanted to clarify that? That being the case, I didn't try that kind of comparison myself, but I would say with everything else being equal, the hive without the excluder will end up with the queen laying in the supers at some point, thereby lowering honey production in that hive compared to the other one. Again, just my opinion based on my experiences.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Harvey Wray said:


> You can just let them go until they die also.


They will all die no matter what you do. There are even respected beekeepers that kill all the bees to get more honey yield. That is also an option. Neither of which has anything to do with an excluder.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> The QE by design is meant to restrict the queen which is a force against nature. When ever there is a force against nature[HIGHLIGHT] the outcome is not so predictable[/HIGHLIGHT].


OK, I'll bite.

What outcome is more _predictable _by NOT using an excluder? :scratch:


:gh:


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## Cascade Hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

I wish Hayes would have tested a third configuration, one with both an entrance above the QU and the standard lower entrance and not just a drone escape hole. Anyone ever try that?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> They will all die no matter what you do. There are even respected beekeepers that kill all the bees to get more honey yield. That is also an option. Neither of which has anything to do with an excluder.


Actually, some of those beekeepers that kill their bees use excluders, and by using them correctly they have increased their honey yield up till the day they kill their bees, so that their honey harvest can be directly tied to them using the excluders. Face it, for some beekeepers, using an excluder results in an increase in honey production (HoneyHouseholder), and for some it will decrease it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jmgi said:


> the hive without the excluder will end up with the queen laying in the supers at some point,


Why? If you take a read from MB's post it says you did something wrong. So it is OK to do something wrong when you are not using an excluder but it is not OK to do something wrong when you are using an excluder.:scratch:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jmgi said:


> Face it, for some beekeepers, using an excluder results in an increase in honey production (HoneyHouseholder), and for some it will decrease it.


Now we are on the same wavelength.:thumbsup:


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

jmgi,
I was thinking of bottom and top entrance on both hives. To clarify my comment I was pointing out that to make definitive statements as to what an excluder will or will not do one really needs to do an actual study to see if there assessments are correct. 

Brian,
I suppose you could deem the excluder a force against nature but my question would be; To what extent? As jmgi has pointed out, your honey yields will improve but only if the excluder restricts the queen as well and that would be a predictable outcome. How much of a force against nature are we talking about if the queen is allowed to move freely in a double deep brood box? She likely has all the room she needs to lay in while the excluder above keeps her from wondering into the honey supers.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Cascade Hunter said:


> I wish Hayes would have tested a third configuration, one with both an entrance above the QU and the standard lower entrance and not just a drone escape hole. Anyone ever try that?


There are lots of people who probably run their hives that way all the time, as an upper entrance in addition to a lower entrance is advocated to increase ventilation AND provide easier access to the supers. Maybe someone out there has experimented with all these different configurations to see which one produced the most honey, I'm thinking not likely. I speculate that testing that third configuration that you are talking about would not result in much change in honey production over the other ways.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

WWW, up to this point, the only published study that I have seen on this is the Jerry Hayes study, and I can only assume that it was done as fairly and correct as possible to get results that can be looked at as being somewhat reliable.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

jmgi,
The differences of opinion will probably never be resolved on this topic, I guess in the end a beekeeper must do what he or she thinks is best to attain their goals. 

Brian,
I hope you didn't take my responses as being argumentative, that wasn't my aim in this conversation.
I will be running with excluders on my hives whether they be restrictive or not, this suits the goals I have for my bee yard.

I have to run....


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

WWW, you're so right about that, this is just one topic in a vast ocean of beekeeping topics that have and will have conflicting opinions, in the past, present and future. Debate on these subjects is good for everyone, beginner and experienced, we can all learn something from one another if we don't have a completely closed mind. Most times, the way we do things in beekeeping is born out of trial and error and experimentation on our own part, or listening to others and following their lead based on their results. There can be quite different outcomes depending on which method we choose to implement.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Cascade Hunter said:


> I wish Hayes would have tested a third configuration, one with both an entrance above the QU and the standard lower entrance and not just a drone escape hole. Anyone ever try that?



That is my standard configuration. Sometimes they'll be slow to use the upper entrance, so I will close off the bottom for a day or two to redirect traffic. Once they start using the top I'll open the bottom again. Most colonies will take both entrances quickly, but occasionally I'll find one that has no interest in the upper entrance.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

WWW said:


> The differences of opinion will probably never be resolved on this topic, I guess in the end a beekeeper must do what he or she thinks is best to attain their goals.


Agreed. However, my issue with the "honey excluder" crowd is that they are often times very vocal about the evils of QE's. I'm also good with that IF they don't attempt to spread it around the globe as fact. To me, QE's are an extremely useful tool - one that saves me countless hours (and potential loss of queens) during harvests, with the beauty of not decreasing yields. 

An additional benefit of QE's that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that they keep your comb free of cocoons, making it much less desirable to wax moths. I have honey super comb that is 12 years old with zero cocoons. This makes storage much easier and eliminates PDB usage completely. 

Backyard hobbyists could very well take the approach that MB advocates and be just fine. For me its a matter of efficiency. For most hobbyists efficiency isn't as big of an issue. However, swarm management is still an issue QE or not.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

...and dont forget about the almost total exclusion from extracting supers those things that SHB love (pollen and brood). We still follow as closely as possible the 4 day extracting rule but have had boxes of honey sitting in our hot room over a week without any signs of shb larvae.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I pretty much just use mine for queen rearing in my cell finisher hives. There are other uses, but I avoid them when possible. Mainly due to just another piece of equipment I have to fool with. 

It is a tool that can be a positive or negative to your operation, depending on how you use it.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> To me, QE's are an extremely useful tool - one that saves me countless hours (and potential loss of queens) during harvests, with the beauty of not decreasing yields.
> 
> An additional benefit of QE's that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that they keep your comb free of cocoons, making it much less desirable to wax moths. I have honey super comb that is 12 years old with zero cocoons. This makes storage much easier and eliminates PDB usage completely.


These are all good points and I use excluders for the very same reasons, thank you for bringing it up, this is something that experience teaches you and if a person is a new beekeeper and keeps their eyes and ears open they can pic up on this wisdom from those that have already gone down the road of trial and error. 

Jim, 
You make a good point about pollen, brood, SHB's in the extracting room. I don't have SHB's in my neck of the woods but I hear that they are in my county.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WWW said:


> Brian,
> I hope you didn't take my responses as being argumentative, that wasn't my aim in this conversation.


Not at all Bill. I enjoyed the posts on this thread quit a bit, especially the basic rules. More detail on how to use it correctly doesn't hurt anyone even if you are not using it today. I might decide to use it tomorrow if the negatives were better understood. You never know.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Especially since I went to all the same size boxes I find the concept of the queen laying in a super odd. If the queen lays in it, it's not a super, it's a brood box. If the queen does not lay in it and it's full of honey, then it's a super... it's all semantics...


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

MB, it might be semantics for you, but for me I like to have boxes designated for brood and boxes for honey, and keep it that way. Once you get queens laying in boxes that are intended for honey, you get pollen storage in them, and you get cocoon buildup in the cells, which makes those combs harder to uncap if you use them for honey again in the future. The pollen and cocoons that you allow to happen in honey supers attract wax moths, not what I want in nice wax honey combs.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I was going to ask what harm is pollen in honey? I thought there already was pollen in honey (real honey).


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would rather the bulk of the pollen be in the brood nest where it belongs and can be doing some good. Then there is the shb issue, remember shb are really attracted to pollen more than anything. Bringing pollen laden combs into the extracting room is asking for trouble. It dosent cause any real problems in an extracting and capping handling systems as long as there isnt too much of it. Dont worry, though, there is still plenty in the honey so lets not light that fuse again.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> I would rather the bulk of the pollen be in the brood nest where it belongs and can be doing some good. Then there is the shb issue, remember shb are really attracted to pollen more than anything. Bringing pollen laden combs into the extracting room is asking for trouble. It dosent cause any real problems in an extracting and capping handling systems as long as there isnt too much of it. Dont worry, though, there is still plenty in the honey so lets not light that fuse again.


Thanks for mentioning the SHB too in addition to the wax moths. In my area I worry more about wax moth damage, we have some SHB but not nearly as bad as some.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Most medical facilities have a UV bug system in place. It is almost required. I am supprised that honey houses don't have them. Maybe it would attract and kill the bees.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Acebird - what are you talking about? We have has a UV zapper in our extracting room since the mid 60's.

Crazy Roland


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