# The Results Of The CCD Conference



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Thank you, Jim!
Very well done, as always.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Thanks Jim,

Very nice article.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

A well-written and thought-provoking indictment Jim. It went well with my morning's first cup of coffee.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

Nice read Jim. Loved your byline.... some of us do very much like train wrecks and other assorted human drama.

ps... I recently read an old article in one of those magazine I acquired from od frank that suggested florine (in the gasous discharge) from coal (mined in Montana) fired power plants were suspected as a problem some years back. can not really figure out how that might work... but the article did suggest some relatively low level (seemed like 10 ppb) of florine would be lethal to bee population.


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

Jim,.....very well written article. Thanks for sharing that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Wow Jim. This should be printed in Discovery Magazine, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and many other popular publications.

Would you mind if I ran off a bunch of copies to give out to friends and customers?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Jim, thanks for taking the time and effort to write that.

But, "you knew that was coming" what I read was, WE NEED MORE MONEY.

What if we took the two million hives or so and had THE BEEKEEPER donates two or three dallors per hive, which would be in a perfect world give you four or five million. Lets say we get half, two million.Maybe we could get the bee suppliers to ask for a small donation when keepers get there supplies? 
This maybe all sound good stuff, but I think it starts with us helping our own.I dont like asking for help when I see little from this bee industry to help it's self.
Keith


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Thanks Jim

Jim


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Great article. I know this thread isn't intended for speculation on the causes, but I do have to agree with those who believe this is a virus. If anyone has ever watched the TV show "House", they would have heard this before, "the symptoms never lie". So here are the theories that I have heard so far, and the evidence that either supports, or eliminates them.

1. Pesticides - These are generally applied during the spring or summer. However the symptoms are showing up in the Fall and Winter. If pesticide laced pollen or nectar was the problem, the symptoms would have followed within 3 - 6 weeks. Three weeks being the time that it takes the new workers to emerge, and 6 weeks being the life span of a spring and summer worker bee. Populations would have declined long before fall or winter.

2. Cell Phones - [Sigh] Give me a break! Cell phones have been around since what? The mid 80's, early 90's? CCD has been a problem for what? 1 or 2 years now? And shows up once every few decades. This also includes other absurd ideas such as fired power plants, gases for coal mining, a government conspiracy to destroy our food supply thus killing the lower and middle class only leaving the elite to inherit the Earth. These ideas are a great example of newspapers trying to sell more newspapers, and conspiracy theorists.

3. Varroa mites - Big possibility, but this would only be an exasperating factor, not the actual cause. CCD showed up in the 20's and 60's, Varroa has been a problem since only the 90's. Besides that CCD only lasts one or two years. If Varroa is the cause, we would have seen CCD since the 90's and it would be every year, not just the last two years. However, Varroa could be a vehicle of transport for the cause. But some may say that chemical resistant Varroa are the cause. We have to then ask, what are the symptoms of a collapse caused by Varroa? Doe the bees disappear? Or do they simply die in the colony? Of the ones that die in the colony, are there visible symptoms? Would putting the empty equipment on another colony cause such a quick collapse? Clearly Varroa is not the single most important factor, its just the one we have been fighting and frustrated with for so long.

4. Genetics - I doubt that half the bees have a gene that would all activate within two years of each other, killing half the bees out there. If bad genetics were a problem, the gene would have killed off the bees having that gene a long time ago. A killer gene goes against nature; it can not survive its self. However, genetics can play a role; some of the hives may be more prone to be affected by CCD, while others may be immune to it.

5. Mold or Fungus - Hmm, Unless there is a strain of mold or fungus that showed up in the 20's, 60's, and now, then disappears after two years.... This would ignore the nature and biology of mold and fungus survival and reproduction. Some site that a fungus was found in all the hives that collapsed, but I have to counter with the fact that Nosema was found as well. Both of these are a bacteria and Nosema just like AFB is a bacteria that is found in every hive and infects bees that are stressed. A fungus is a bacterium as well. Just because something is found, that does not mean that it is the cause, just a possible suspect. But in any crime, the cops may catch a suspect, but if the criminal's fingerprints don't match the suspect's, the suspect is no longer a suspect.

6. A Virus - This seems to make the most since to me. Just like the influenza of the early 1900's that killed millions then disappeared, this is likely a bee virus that simply runs it's course. A virus that is easily transmitted always infects the population, kills those that are unable to adapt or fight it off, then goes dormant for a period, then mutates, then repeats the cycle. Some mutations are worse then others, and this may be a bad one. The supporting evidence is the fact that other hives were infected by infected equipment placed on them, the quick kill, the dormant time between the 20's, 60's, and now, the two year epidemic period, and the difficulty in detection. If you understand what a virus does, you will notice that every symptom fits with a viral or bacterial infection. 

7. EFB - The symptoms do not match, unless there is a new strain. I think this idea is a case of desperation.

Of course I'm open to rebuttals.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

"A fungus is a bacterium as well."

Someone needs to take a course in micro-biology. A fungus is definately NOT a bacterium. 

"Both of these are a bacteria and Nosema just like AFB is a bacteria....."

Ditto as to your need for studies in micro-biology as illustrated by this statement. Nosema is actually a microsporidian fungi. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosema_apis)


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Thanks Jim. A great job.

dickm


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Nosema is a protozoan.

Dickm


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

dickm said:


> Nosema is a protozoan.
> 
> Dickm


"Microsporidia are parasites of animals, now considered to be extremely reduced fungi."(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsporidia)


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Jim

Your article was extremely well written and absolutely "hits the nail on the head". We all appreciate your efforts and opinions.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Gene,
I read the reference after I posted. This was one thing I thought I knew as I got it from C Collison because I got it wrong on a master beek exam. It's not fair! Thanks for the help.

Dickm


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

dickm said:


> Gene,
> I read the reference after I posted. This was one thing I thought I knew as I got it from C Collison because I got it wrong on a master beek exam. It's not fair! Thanks for the help.
> 
> Dickm


Dickm, 

I don't know exactly when they changed the classification, it did use to be thrown in with the protozoan.

Just as a side note, if you read the first link to Wiki on Nosema apis, you will learn that there is a second pathogen of Asian origin, Nosema ceranae that appears to be much more virulent and devastating to the EHB than Nosema apis. The symptoms are very close to those described for CCD. The fact that a majority of the CCD affected colonies tested positive for Nosema along with the fact that it requires molecular-genetic methods to differentiate the two, it could be reasonable to suspect Nosema ceranae as the CCD culprit (all the sterilization methods used on the CCD infected combs and equipment are among the only known methods to destroy Nosema ceranae spores as well).


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Would you mind if I ran off a bunch of copies to give out to friends and customers?

Of course. As I often say:

"_All and sundry are hereby granted the right to download, save, print out, and distribute at bee association meetings, reprint in local newsletters with standard author credit, or submit them into consideration for any journalism award you choose. Just don't change a single wo__rd_."


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

"Someone needs to take a course in micro-biology. A fungus is definately NOT a bacterium."

I stand corrected on that fact, thanks for clarifying what a fungus and Nosema actually are.

My point is the cause has to be some sort of infection, this asian form of Nosema, a virus, or some other type of infection.


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*Hummmmmm...money, mo money*

I am willing to bet that all the reasearch has not reversed the forensics and looked at those who were not grabbed to see if that class had common factors, because if the factor (or factors) are not obvious in the victims, then the next step is to locate the non-victims of proximity and discern if there was a common thread in that group. Of course that would require gas money and interviews and a group of mono direction investigators having to consider hard evidence, real forensics in the field just like real police work.

The Green River Task Force wasted vast amounts of time and money on good looking perps, when in the end the subject fit the profile, was pointed out early on, yet the evidence was skant. Lab work was the final step...after some great hunches by the FBI's John Douglas and some real detective work by some that were not out to be front page killer catchers. Some close to the victims, who were not grabbed, ID'd the perp.

Our great Dr. Kepple "Almost" caught Ted Bundy. I almost caught the biggest trout ever too. Almost counts in horse shoes and hand grenades and H-bombs, but does little in CI. How many African bees in the US suffered CCD? No one can answer that and the reason they can't is no one looked. Absconding is a trait, so how would they know, the queen and a number of bees behind in AHB colonies, but no one looked. I have training in criminal investigation, at this point the evidence trail is incomplete. Do that, then hit the labs. Shoe leather before billfold leather.

Chrissy Shaw


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> if you read the first link to Wiki on Nosema apis, you will learn that there is a second pathogen of Asian origin, Nosema ceranae that appears to be much more virulent and devastating to the EHB than Nosema apis.


Funny thing about that... the nosema issue was looked at with care,
and it was found that, of nosema samples saved, they were all testing
as "*nosema ceranae*", going back nearly a decade. It appears that all the
nosema in the USA has been *nosema ceranae* for some time, and the
cases of nosema we have seen have not been the violent and fatal
cases one might associate with *nosema ceranae*, but instead, much less
virulent.

Funny thing about the Wikis on CCD (and bee subjects in general).
They are wildly inaccurate, and attempts to correct the more misleading
parts have been met with active "resistance". Someone or some group,
uninformed or misinformed, seems to be very defensive, and will restore
the inaccurate information within minutes or seconds, deleting the corrections.



> The symptoms are very close to those described for CCD. The fact that a majority of the CCD affected colonies tested positive for Nosema along with the fact that it requires molecular-genetic methods to differentiate the two, it could be reasonable to suspect Nosema ceranae as the CCD culprit


But the symptoms *observed* have been far less spectacular.
Nosema apis has not killed any US colonies to our knowledge, but
it seems to be everywhere. And no, the test is not "wrong", this
truly is a different protozoan. An experienced eye can see differences.



> (all the sterilization methods used on the CCD infected combs and equipment are among the only known methods to destroy Nosema ceranae spores as well)


Well, irradiation kills everything, and Acetic Acid fumigation kills just
about everything except AFB, so it is not surprising that these techniques
also kill Nosema. If "CCD" were nothing more than nosema, regardless of
the variety of nosema, the investigation would be over by now.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Nice article Jim.

If one day, someone "found" cancer (assume up till now, it was not discovered) and the search was on for what caused it, what would we think when we hear about the first person to find a link to asbestos(sp?). 

We would say, hey, but wait a minute! We had these symptoms long before asbestos was produced. We have documentation a hundred years ago about cancer like symptoms, with people dying. Long before that stuff was around.

Then someone adds, "Hey, we think its tobacco use!" Look at the risks, the association, and the testing"
But someone adds "Yeah, but look at all the people using the stuff. My own grandmother smokes to this day, and she's 93 years old"

Then someone adds "Hey, its the charcoal grilling!"

Then someone adds "hey its the cells phone use!"

Then someone adds "hey, its the goverment!"

Then someone says "Hey, its the water".....

and so on and so on....

Each may have its merits. Each could be disputed with cases causing cancer, and there would be others who would claim grandmom's smoking at 93 proves it can't be this. And for each sample, no clear connection, no clear one point answering all the questions. Yes, the smoking part is perhaps a poor example, and I am not disputing the smoking research etc.

I am just pointing out how interesting it would be to get all the different angles of cuases of cancer, and how many non-associating circumstances could be made. Cancer is cancer. It comes in different forms. It has different risk enhancers. It has different paths...that all lead to one thing. Cancer, and early death.

I liken the discussion of CCD, along the same lines. Everyone is trying connect dots. ("My bees were right next to that guy who has CCD", "My bees were on neocicotinoid crops and I don't have symptoms", etc...)

Why do people get cancer? Many reasons. Genetics possibly. Health style. Risk factors. and so. But connecting dots and finding clear answers would be hard to answer why a 5 year old has it, and a 93 year old smoker does not.

I guess you could say, the best we could do would be to know the risk factors involved and try to eliminate as many as possible or at least lessen the risk.

I don't think we will have a clear pinpointed answer to CCD. I think many of the nosema, efb, and other found contaminates are secondary in nature. A compounding factor.

But just as with questions with cancer, some will never be answered. But some could say its exposure here, overuse there, lifestyle for some, genetics, and the list is many.

Could the same be said with bees, with CCD? No real answers clear enough to pinpoint one item. But exposure here, overuse there, genetics, lifestyle)stress), and the list goes on and on.

Why do people get cancer? Long discussion. Many types. Many causes. We have had a long time dealing with it. The dots don't always add up. The dots don't always present answers.

Why do bees have CCD? Could it be many causes. With many similar types symptoms, but fatal just the same? Are we expecting the dots to add up? Are we asking that the dots once we connect them, whether correct or not, to provide answers that may be never forthcoming?

I am not rtying to detail a discussion of inner dealings of cancer and what we know or don't know. Just using the "outline" of asking the question "Why do people die of cancer?" and using the same logic for "Why do bees have CCD?"

Were trying to connect too many dots. And seek answers clearer than what we may ever come to realize.

Round and round we go. Its sure to be a long ride.......


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

And Jim,
I had discussions with some connected to CCD research months ago. They made it clear to me that they felt a single source item causing CCD would not be found. That the best we would get is a "guideline" of sorts with reccomendations of what they feel would lessen the chances of CCD outbreaks, and that the CCD was cuased by compounding factors.

If that is true, then other than bickering on funding and splitting up the money, what else is there?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

No, it is not "cancer", nor is it "AIDS".

But sure, it very well may be caused by a combination of factors.

Problem is, a "combination of factors" would be rare statistically,
and while we might have a handful of "cases", it would be highly
unusual to see so many operations affected. So many operations,
run very differently, would not "roll the dice" and all come up with
the same combination.

Further, a "combination of factors" would not result in a sporadic,
but recurring list of "outbreaks". What we have is a record of
multiple operations seeing the same unusual symptoms at the
same time in some years, but not in others. The list of years
when "outbreaks" have been reported is long, and detailed in
the Underwood/vanEngelsdorp paper available on the
Bee Culture Website

Clearly, not all these incidents featured symptoms similar to "CCD",
but some of them did.

So, the "combination" must be fairly common to multiple locations,
operations, and practices. It rules out much, and it certainly rules
out many of the "blame the beekeeper" rationales that have been
lobbed around, such as illegal and off-label miticide use.

The combination has to be fairly simple, if it is a combination at all.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I did not say it was aids, nor cancer.
I also did not use the word "combination"...

Dot...dot....dot........

"Clearly, not all.....",......"but some did"........

dot... dot....dot......


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

First of all, wow, Bjornbee great thought provocative post.

Now Jim,
>But sure, it very well may be caused by a combination of factors.

I agree with that Jim.

>Problem is, a "combination of factors" would be rare statistically,

Jim, weather conditions were not normal and many now are coming to the almonds which is a new stress on the bees.Many did not feed pollen sub, didn't have to a few short years ago, things are changing, the cause and effect need to change too.

>unusual to see so many operations affected. So many operations,

How many numbers are we talking about here Jim ?

And one last thing , Jim, how many of those keepers that had problems feed Fumagilin-B ? 

Anyhow, good discussion with both of you.
Keith


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## DCH (Aug 30, 2004)

*How long were the "previous" outbreaks*

Jim,

Good article. Thanks. Your article, and a few others I've read, mention past CCD-like outbreaks that mysteriously appeared and then just as mysteriously disappeared. Are there any records on how long these outbreaks lasted? Was it a season, a few seasons, etc?

Seems to me that, if this is a new occurrence of some sort of "Bee Ebola" then there is a race against time on top of everything else to discover the cause before it disappears again.

Cheers,
DCH


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Jim,

I followed this link found on Wiki at the Nosema apis page:
http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/info/info/disease/nosema-ceranae-a-new-thre.shtml

These folks are out of the UK and based on their research insist that chances are extremely high that Nosema ceranae is now spread pretty much world-wide.

The following is the final statement in their article:
"I hope the relevant authorities and beekeepers take note. Forewarned is forearmed."

Without pointing fingers as to your experience with trying to correct the CCD info on Wiki, one has to wonder as these folks sure seem almost militantly sure of themselves in regards to Nosema ceranae.

Personally I suspect that you may be right about the cause of CCD, and given the competition that seems to be going on over the research dollars, I also suspect that by the time any serious investigative research gets funded, the "evidence" will be long gone and all that will be left is questions, much the same as in the past.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> These folks are out of the UK and based on their research insist that 
> chances are extremely high that Nosema ceranae is now spread pretty
> much world-wide.

When I read the posting I quote above, I went back and looked at
my prior posting, and realized that I had typed "nosema apis"
when I should have typed "nosema ceranae".

I went back and edited to correct the error, but let me repeat.

*Tests on saved samples have revealed that at least "nearly all"
if not "all" the nosema we have been seeing here in the USA
for years - almost a decade - is nosema ceranae, rather than 
nosema apis.

The strange thing is that all the dire warnings about nosema ceranae
aside, the hives do not die within days or weeks. They react pretty
much as they did with nosema apis, which is to say that many cases
of nosema simply weaken the hive, reduce the yield, and perhaps
avoid detection.


*


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

With that correction, then the article they published is "old news". It would also certianly seem to indicate that nosema ceranae may only be an oportunistic player in the CCD puzzle as has been suggested by others.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Jim Fischer said:


> Tests on saved samples have revealed that at least "nearly all"
> if not "all" the nosema we have been seeing here in the USA
> for years - almost a decade - is nosema ceranae, rather than
> nosema apis.


Do you have a link to these test results? Sounds interesting, I would love to read them.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Do you have a link to these test results?

Heck no... nothing has been published.'

This was a verbal comment made at the USDA "CCD" Meeting,
nothing more.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

bjorn sezs:
We would say, hey, but wait a minute! We had these symptoms long before asbestos was produced. We have documentation a hundred years ago about cancer like symptoms, with people dying. Long before that stuff was around.

Then someone adds, "Hey, we think its tobacco use!" Look at the risks, the association, and the testing"
But someone adds "Yeah, but look at all the people using the stuff. My own grandmother smokes to this day, and she's 93 years old"

tecumseh fills in a blank or so:
actually bjorn if you read some of the original work in regards to asbestos* the related culprit was smoking. the mechanism which allowed asbestos to become lethal were scars on lung tissue caused by smoking.

*asbestos is a generic term and was commonly available in two form... one form comes from canada and the other africa. if memory serves it was the african form of the material (which had a higher r value) that was the culprit in regards to human health problems. the canadian form (which had a lower r value) was never connect to human health problems as far as I know.


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