# Hey Newbies! What are your thoughts concerning chemical treatments?



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Treatment free for me. The main reason I got into beekeeping was to produce a natural chemical free sweetener. Treatment of pretty much any kind goes against that.


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## [email protected] (May 12, 2010)

Let me know how treatment free works out for you about next August 1st.


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

May use Oxalic Acid, vaporized, for Varroa if needed. Going to try and use nematodes for SHB, fingers crossed.

http://www.bugsforgrowers.com/products/heterorhabditis-indica

Update: Newbeek 2 June 2012


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

Treatment-free here. 

Yes, I'll be happy to report back on August 1st. It's my birthday, and I ask every single one of you to remember.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Let me know how treatment free works out for you about next August 1st.



This seems a bit aggressive and not very constructive. The poll asked for new beeks thoughts. I posted mine without casting judgement. I may fail, but that is true anyways. Especially in my climate. A) Are you a new beek? B) What are your thoughts? If the answer to A is no, than B doesn't really apply in this thread.

Adam


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## ken rice (Apr 28, 2010)

zhiv9,Just a suggestion, Beekeeping for dummies should bee a book in your future


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## mmmooretx (Jun 4, 2012)

SRBrooks said:


> Treatment-free here.
> 
> Yes, I'll be happy to report back on August 1st. It's my birthday, and I ask every single one of you to remember.


That was 14 days ago, must have been a good party! My B'day too.


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## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

Dear mmmooretx:

And a Texan to boot! Cool!

No, no party. All I want these days is a good night's sleep.

zhiv9: Yes, I'm a new beek. Will be treatment-free no matter what happens by August 1.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

SRBrooks said:


> Dear mmmooretx:
> 
> And a Texan to boot! Cool!
> 
> ...


Sorry I had meant to respond the post a couple above yours. Still getting the hang of the forum.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

I have not used any chemicals except Pro Health from Mann Lake. But if I need to use chemicals to make my bees survive their first Winter, I will. Treatment free can come after I have a little more experience. This year I am having enough trouble just keeping them alive and trying to figure out what the next "correct" step should be.


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## vstoltzfus (Jun 4, 2011)

I don't get the August 1 thing. I'm a new beekeeper, and I don't treat my bees. I got a really nice harvest this year, and I'm selling my honey for top dollar because it is treatment free. Can someone explain the August 1 thing to me?


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## avesterfelt (Jan 31, 2012)

The insinuation is that your bees will not make it a year without treatment. However I have been treatment free since I started (3years running), so far have only lost a swarm that I collected, it was small and I did not give it much of a chance. Long story but mostly my fault had nothing to do with treatments or not. 

By the way I was taught (very little) and had experience (much more) with my uncle who was treatment free in mid Michigan and he was mentored by another guy further north in Michigan also treatment free. 

So don’t buy into the “you have to treat or all your bees will die” theory. It takes more work to manage a hive without treatment, but I have been very successful so far. I have top bar hives (wont after this year) 10 frame langs, 8 frame langs, nucs. And all have done just fine without treatment (chemicals). It is a lot of work but it is also very satisfying and gets me a higher price for my honey. This spring I will be going for the big 50 hive mark so I will see how it works on a larger scale but think I will be just fine. 

Aslo did not put in my vote; not sure if 3 years is a newbie or not.


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## vstoltzfus (Jun 4, 2011)

Thanks, avesterfelt. I thought it was something like that. I'm glad my bees didn't know they were supposed to die on August 1!!!


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

treatment free here. My birthday was the 11th, Happy birthday all.


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## mulesii (Jun 10, 2012)

I am going to use MAQS if the varroa get out of control, but nothing harder. I would like to go treatment free and right now my varroa counts are low, but I am a realist and I would rather have treated bees than no bees at all.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

ken rice said:


> zhiv9,Just a suggestion, Beekeeping for dummies should bee a book in your future


Ken, hard to tell what you are suggesting.

If you are trying to be helpful and suggest a treatment-free book, the dummies book is not it. The Complete Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping (which sometimes gets confused with the dummies book) is a treatment-free book.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Let me know how treatment free works out for you about next August 1st.


...treatment-free is a far sight better than this kind of "treatment" applied to new beekeepers...especially from a club president.

deknow


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I would like to be treatment free, but in actuality I have been fighting Varroa with a non-chemical method so I voted in that category.

I spotted several bees with DWV in June and decided instead of using powdered sugar to get the bees to clean each other off that I would dissolve some of my honey in a little water and mist the bees with that when I inspect (fresh each time). My reason for doing that instead of powdered sugar was to keep the hive PH balance (from something I read in Mike Bush's book that struck a chord - I'd explain but you will all think TMI) and also because it was easier to use to get more bee coverage. I don't know if that has helped, or if it has been because my queen greatly reduced laying during our drought (and hasn't been much of a drone layer at all), or a combination of everything, but my bees are now almost Varroa free and I haven't seen any more issues with DWV. I dropped the bottom board the other day and inspected it and only saw 3 mites among the wax scale and pollen debris. That was the first time I had dropped it in about a month. I've been looking really close for them on the bees during inspection and haven't seen any or I would have checked sooner. (My hive is a KTBH so they are on their own sized comb too.)


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## [email protected] (May 12, 2010)

deknow said:


> ...treatment-free is a far sight better than this kind of "treatment" applied to new beekeepers...especially from a club president.
> 
> deknow


The point here is this; If you want to be "treatment free" you need to be at the top of your game. It is easy to go the first summer with out doing anything about mites. After a long New England winter, the Piper needs to be paid. The cost is usually dead bees, if not by spring then by August first the mites will be overrunning the hive.

New Beekeepers need to learn the basics. Ignoring the mites just leads to dissapointment and many times just giving up on bees. I see this every year with new beekeepers who start out with warm fuzzies, neglect their bees and then just give up. When I ask what they did about mites, they say "nothing, I didn't see any mites in the Fall". Well guess what? We now know why your bees died. 

So here is an open challenge to any one in Southern New England. It you are TRULY "Treatment Free" and not loosing most of your bees each winter, contact me. I would honestly like to track your success over a five year period.


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## vstoltzfus (Jun 4, 2011)

Adam, aren't you an organic beekeeper? I'd be very interested to hear what you do to treat mites organically. Do you use powdered sugar and screened bottom boards?


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

I voted soft or non chemical but I plan to use HOPGUARD if needed and I expect the need. Is that considered soft?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...we are truly "treatment free" (we also don't feed sugar).

Some winters we have lost most of our bees...but more survive each year. This past winter was mild, and one would expect varroa to be a problem...we lost almost nothing this past winter (most of our losses were tiny nucs that had no chance to begin with). I'm perfectly capable of tracking my own successes and failures (how many folks who are sure you are going to fail do you invite to look over your shoulder?).

Yes, new beekeepers need to learn the basics...but adding "treatments" to the equation does not increase knowledge. Most folks that come to our treatment free conference are either new beekeepers seeking knowledge that they can't get from their local bee club (the kind of attitude that has been expressed by a club president here is typical), or they are beekeepers with some experience who lost bees despite using treatments.

Are you saying that new beekeepers who embrace treatments don't lose bees, don't get disappointed, don't give up on bees?

IMHO, the primary requirement for being treatment free is deciding that you are not going to use treatments. No matter what, if you keep bees for more than 2 years, you will encounter some issue that seems to demand treatments of one kind or another....if treatments are your fallback position, you will often find yourself treating.

Recent findings wrt fumidil are that as the level of fumidil in the hive decreases over time, that it actually encourages nosema C. spore production...a true treadmill, once you start, you can't get off (and any attempt to get off "proves" that treatment is needed). 

It's worth noting that we had a lot of beekeepers from CT at our treatment free conference this year...perhaps they are not getting support at home? There are now at least 2 conferences every year, our book, Michael Bush's book, and several internet forums where those wanting to be treatment-free can learn about bees and treatment free beekeeping.

deknow


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Deknow, where can we get info and/or purchase your book?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

vstoltzfus said:


> Adam, aren't you an organic beekeeper?


Usually (not always) when folks cite "organic methods", they are talking about formic acid, oxalic acid, essential oils, hopguard, etc. I'd rather eat any of these than fluvalinate or coumaphos...but they seem to be worse for the bees.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

LeonardS said:


> Deknow, where can we get info and/or purchase your book?


errr..."The Complete Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping", available from Amazon or your local book store. Reviews on Amazon will speak for themselves. I should also note that my wife and I wrote it together.

deknow


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Thank you.......that sounds like it would fit my first year of beekeeping!!


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

I plan not to read your book nor the dummy's books because I am neither an idiot nor a dummy. :no:


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I suppose you didn't read "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" because you don't hitchhike and don't ride in spaceships? ..didn't read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" because you don't own a motorcycle? ..."What Color is your Parachute" because you don't skydive? ..."How to Eat Fried Worms" because you steam your worms?

deknow


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## Sam Fugate (Jul 28, 2012)

I want to keep my bees chemical free, But going into my first year , and it looks I may be forced to use some treatment for mites to get the bees through the winter.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

I tried to read "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" but did not like it. I am an engineer and avid hard SF fan, the others you mention I wouldn't touch. I did read(possibly memorize at the time) "The Landing Party Manual" USMC and "The Joy of Cooking" by Irma Rombauer, "Breeding Super Bees" by Taber and my check book and of course BeeSource!. What else does one need to have a good life? :applause:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

BeeCurious said:


> What are your intensions when it comes to managing your bees?


Bump...


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Chemical and pharmaceutical treatments only as a last resort. I would prefer to be treatment free.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> What are your intensions when it comes to managing your bees?


Treatment free, small cell, replace losses with nucs. Strongest "treatements" I plan on using is powdered sugar dusting and tobacco smoke.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Many times this summer I have met beekeepers who were ready give up before they even got any bees because they were told it was impossible to keep bees without chemicals and antibiotics and pesticides and they could not accept doing that. The only reason they got started at all was because they found out it wasn't true. Then we have all the ones I meet who lost all their bees while treating and have given up treating completely and had much better luck now that they are not treating. I would be one of those as well. In my experience the "you must treat" litany is driving off more prospective beekeepers than anything else.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Hey Old Timers, we newbies come here, at least this one does, for your ideas, as we haven't a clue yet! Besides, I am having too much trouble lighting my smoker when in my new bee suit to think straight! :lookout:


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## clumsy red bear (Jun 15, 2012)

I am tying to do integrated pest management. I have to say the debate about it all is extremely confusing to me as a newbee.


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## juzzerbee (Apr 17, 2012)

I wanted to go chemical free, this being my first year of beekeeping, but I have chosen otherwise. I will be using Apigard for the mites my bees currently have, probably fumagilin for nosema, and Honey B Healthy just to pump them up for winter. What are the side effects of theses chemicals anyway? Why are they looked down on by people? I have heard/read that it is not good to use all those "artificial" treatments. Another big factor that helped my decide to use these medications, was the fact that a package of bees costs me $80, that's a lot of cash to shell out each year for just 1 new package. Another factor is that I harvested 35 pounds off of 1 hive and 215 pounds of my other. At 250 pounds of honey in my first year I really want to return the favor to my bees and keep the little sweethearts as strong, happy, and healthy as possible. juzzerbee


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

clumsy red bear said:


> I am tying to do integrated pest management. I have to say the debate about it all is extremely confusing to me as a newbee.


I agree Bear. :applause:


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

OK, all BS aside, after reading books, Beesource and web postings since early this year, here are the things I am and plan to implement;
Hopguard as needed.
SBB and top venting.
SHB trapping, in box and bottom board oil pan and mite counting.
Checkerboarding.
Re-Queen as needed with local queens or allow self re-queening.
Work towards small cell foundation and/or no foundation.
Wright's Double Deep nest box.
Pollen box.
Allow nest area to be as undisturbed as possible over years.

Have I got it wrong anywhere? Not much chemicals here, just Hopgard and oil in the pan and traps.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Bump


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

This is my first year back in Beekeeping since before the mites arrived. I voted for the "last resort". I think the drought this year hurt the mites as much as the honey crop here in Indy.

From everything I've read, making nucs, buying queens from a variety of sources to improve genetics, and brood breaks, are as effective as drugs. 

I started back this spring with 25 nucs so I could experiment as much as possible. I had a few failures, my fault and not mite related, but I've also had successes.

Having completed my first season, I've been moving to a strategy which is a gleaning of Micheal Bush, Micheal Palmer, and Mel Disselkoen;

1. I love M Bush's approach to "practical beekeeping" because it makes a lot of sense. For example, the nucs I bought were showing signs of tracheal mites. I bred it out with no drugs.

2. I made some 5 over 5 deep nucs like M Palmer. They are great! I am considering going all 5 frame deeps for new equipment until I have enough to cover any losses with bees to spare. The FatBeekeeper has a video on Youtube showing 5 frame deep hives 3 boxes tall making Ross Rounds, so they can make honey as well.

3. Mel asserts that a hive doesn't have to be big all year, only during the honey flow, and two or three small hives can be combined for that and then made back into nucs after the flow. Genius! And it fits in well with my 5 over 5 nucs. I designed my 5 frame deep boxes so they could be stacked 5 or 6 tall to accommodate this model. I am also using 8 frame deeps as a control group.

4. Money. I started back on a shoestring budget. I make all my own equipment including foundationless frames. Losing some hives that can be repopulated with an abundant supply of nucs makes more sense to me than spending a lot of money on drugs when that money could make more nucs, and from what I see, drugs are not a guarantee. Extra boxes and bees are.

On the other hand, if things start looking too grim, I will treat with whatever is available.


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