# N.Y. Apiary Industry Advisory Committee Mtng notes 6/19/2014



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

And I got to meet Mike. Someone at the meeting asked me if we were brothers. So if you want to see what Mike looks like look at my photo in the eshpa newsletter and squint. inch:


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

> Cappy talked about the Lu harvard neonic studies and said these studies were a good example of how directly feeding more neonics to bees than the label allows shows the same symptoms in the hives when they die as ccd does.

You must be joking! Those studies aren't a _good example_ of anything


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

thank you wild. there is more information contained in your notes than in any meeting minutes I have read!

that failed HIVE Act legislation alluded to some type of a "reporting" system and Doan's comment confirmed it.
much of it based, it seems, on his personal business issues. neonics ring a bell?

thanks again wild


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

In my opinion a lot of these second generation beekeepers have been set up by their parents' hard work over many decades. Now that the parents are old and can's support them the way they want to be supported, they are looking for government hand outs to fill the gap. Of course, it's the government and by extension you and I, who caused all their problems. (If you believe that, you'll believe all the rest of their paranoid scenarios)


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Can anyone provide any data about this comment?


> Doan- says that fluvalinate and coumaphos that are showing up in the pollen samples(trapped coming into the hive) are coming from the pesticide manufacturers and being added to apple sprays as inert ingredient to make the spray more effective(inerts do not have to show on the label and are not tested) so they haven't been able to find out which sprays include these chemicals.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Fluvalinate is an orchard spray, it's hardly an inert ingredient though I have no idea what the label allows as far as treatment windows. Coumaphous, on the other hand, is intended for use in livestock tick control. Again, hardly an inert ingredient. I can't imagine any scenario where it might be present in an orchard spray.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Perhaps it is inert as a fungicide?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



deknow said:


> Can anyone provide any data about this comment?


This is the theory as I understand it based somewhat on the fact that the beekeepers that had pesticide laden pollen
samples had not used Checkmite or Apistan in well over 15 years, therefore, where could the choumaphas and fluvalinate laden pollen come from? 

Pollen samples taken from a couple of my hives while in SC in March of 2013 showed chumouphas and chumouphas oxon in relatively newly gathered stored pollen. Where did that come from? I don't know. I can only imagine.

One thing about the NHBS pollen sampling is that the sampling was very small. Pollen was taken from a very small number of hives.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



deknow said:


> Can anyone provide any data about this comment?


my only comment is I got that one almost word for word, especially as people keep finding high levels of it in hives. His statement was because it wasn't an active ingredient in what ever spray's were being used, the chemical co. was adding it as an inert ingredient to enhance the active ingredient. It was my assessment that this was how they were trying to
make a case for it being an emergency to get cornell to do something. I didn't see and hard facts used in making the case.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

As an adjuvant I believe. That is the suspicion anyway.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

since we have a lot of N.Y. beeks on here, anyone think it would be a good idea to set up a couple of threads as a pole to see if beeks really want #1 bee inspection
#2 apiary registration #3 the border with canada open? and no matter what the results of the pole, who to give the information to that would matter?

some things that I do find disturbing about the meeting. #1 the same people that went to the farm bureau a few years ago to get apiary registration removed by going through the farm bureau suddenly see someone moving into there area and want it back. #2 the bee wellness program(if it had some new funding) seems like a better way to get more people in the field at a lower cost to keep diseases down and train people to recognize diseases. Only thing that would help now is a list of people that have been trained so you can refer people with disease questions to the trained people.
#3 as far as opening the borders, from what has been said on beesource the Canadians are only looking to bring packages back(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm used to it my wife does it all the time.
:shhhh But since Mr doan said that the Comm. beeks were on the brink of not being able to supply enough pollinate to the people that need due to loses, I'm sure for the correct price the Canadians would like to help. I can't imagine that they would be looking to come down for honey production as they get more per hive than we do.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> since we have a lot of N.Y. beeks on here, anyone think it would be a good idea to set up a couple of threads as a pole to see if beeks really want #1 bee inspection
> #2 apiary registration #3 the border with canada open? and no matter what the results of the pole, who to give the information to that would matter?
> 
> But since Mr doan said that the Comm. beeks were on the brink of not being able to supply enough pollinate to the people that need due to loses, I'm sure for the correct price the Canadians would like to help. I can't imagine that they would be looking to come down for honey production as they get more per hive than we do.


That would be a poll, Mike. Mandatory apiary registration was instituted without beekeeper input and a huge effort was mounted to repeal it. Why would anyone suggest repeating that expensive and time consuming debacle? Bee inspection as carried out by the state was inadequate at best; basically a waste of hundreds of thousands of dollars of our money. The Canadian border is a Canadian issue, they closed it. If they bring bees here, they can't take them back. 

As far as adequate pollination goes, there is a very comprehensive study done by Prof Calderone on the topic. People said back in the 1960s if bees kept declining we would not have adequate pollination. That's when there were still 5 million hives. Now, at half that many, where is there problem? I estimate the actual need for bees at around one million colonies, based on fruit acreage in the USA. This does not count almonds, but the bee shortage in almonds is a problem _they created.
_


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Has anyone heard of or does anyone know someone who needed bees to pollinate their crop(s) but couldn't get them? I may be way out in left field, but, seems like where there is a void it gets filled. I took bees to a part of NY I only did once before in 20 years. Almost all of my hives were in paid pollination this year.

And who can tell me how much pollination is provided to NY growers by NYers and how much is provided by beekeepers who bring bees in and then leave the State? And how many bring bees in for pollination and stay in NY for a honey crop?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> As far as adequate pollination goes, there is a very comprehensive study done by Prof Calderone on the topic. People said back in the 1960s if bees kept declining we would not have adequate pollination. That's when there were still 5 million hives. Now, at half that many, where is there problem? I estimate the actual need for bees at around one million colonies, based on fruit acreage in the USA. This does not count almonds, but the bee shortage in almonds is a problem _they created.
> _


But what about NY specifically? How many colonies are needed? When? For how long? How many do multiple pollinations w/in NY?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Orange [email protected] $2.70 per # is a "disaster"? Why?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> How many colonies are needed? When? For how long?


Nobody knows, but researchers at Cornell have interviewed apple growers that don't rent bees and they get adequate fruit set. There are probably enough bees in the area to set fruit without renting them, but nobody wants to take a chance. For fruit growers, the bees are cheap enough they rent them just because they always have.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



Mbeck said:


> Orange [email protected] $2.70 per # is a "disaster"? Why?


... have you been to the mailbox and actually looked at your bills lately? have you been to a gas station? apparently not.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



jim lyon said:


> Fluvalinate is an orchard spray........Coumaphous, on the other hand, is intended for use in livestock tick control........ I can't imagine any scenario where it might be present in an orchard spray.


Could sheep dip on a shop towel provide the source for contamination in a hive like this?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



Mbeck said:


> Orange [email protected] $2.70 per # is a "disaster"? Why?


the impression I got it was a disaster because he was paying for it.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> That would be a poll, Mike. The Canadian border is a Canadian issue, they closed it. If they bring bees here, they can't take them back.


Ya I knew when I wrote it I had the wrong one, just forgot to go back and change it, if spell checker doesn't highlight it I forget early in the AM.
Since the canadians can't bring wax into the U.S., our laws from what I have read, then they could open all they want and still not be able to get hives accross.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> Mandatory apiary registration was instituted without beekeeper input and a huge effort was mounted to repeal it. Why would anyone suggest repeating that expensive and time consuming debacle?


Ok, and they are trying to get registration put back in without the input of the majority of beekeepers, but now the beekeepers know about it, what are the beekeepers going to do about providing input? The effort to repeal it was done by the same people that are now trying to get it put back in through the same agency that helped them repeal it.
Must be a reason. What will the registration look like, the one comment was that whomever was here first wins. If it gets implemented like that, I can't wait to here the whining, but I will book mark this thread to remind people that they should have seen it coming.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Mike,
Until you see the economy turn around and the NYS coffers bulge at the seams, until you see the ranks of the Apiary Inspectors grow from 2 to 20, until there is some yet unknown disease or pest affecting commercial and noncommercial bees in NYS to great economic detriment I would not be too concerned about what someone thinks the Dept. of Ag&Mkts should do regarding the growing number of beekeepers across the State of NY. The money isn't there.

I would like to see the Presidents of all of the Bee Clubs get together for a bull session some time, somewhere. Just to talk, to get acquainted, compare notes, share resources maybe, or whatever. I would like to see someone in Ag&Mkts call or visit each and every Bee Club in the State. Maybe it's already being done, but I haven't heard it's so, so I doubt it. Maybe beekeepers don't want anything from Ag&Mkts or don't need anything from Ag&Mkts. Fine. I'm sure that 95% of all of the beekeepers in NY State are unaffected by the lack of Apiary Inspection.

Apiary Inspection came into being back in the early 20th Century because of the scourge, the epidemic, of AFB and the invention of sulfathiazole to treat it along w/ the burn it to control it philosophy. Which was in a somewhat similar fashion what happened in the mid and late 1980 w/ tracheal and varroa mites. Beekeepers first had to kill all known colonies w/in an epicenter of where tracheal mites were found and then the same w/ varroa until someone jumped up w/ a mite strip which Apiary Inspectors were the only ones who could apply it.

But, since then varroa/virus has all of us, commercial and non, all confused and uncertain about what to do to address our problems, which, in our understandably paranoid state makes some of us concerned about what is going on in other peoples' apiaries, especially newbees, which could potentially affect our own apiaries. It's natural.

What we all need to do is do what we can to be the best stewards of our bees and to stop looking over the fence worrying about what our neighbor is or isn't up to. All we can ever hope to control is ourselves. And sometimes we can't even do that. We need more mirrors and fewer telescopes.

A number of years ago, when TBHs were just starting to become the "rage", for lack of a better word, there was concern high and low that TBH beekeepers just wanted to have a box of bees in their backyard and didn't want to know anything about keeping them and therefore they would be neglected and uninspected and turn into AFB bombs. I wondered that myself. I even wondered if they were inspectable. Turns out they are. Who'da thunk it.

It has not come to pass. As far as anyone knows, since no wide spread regular inspection of the majority of hives in NYS, let along TBHs, has been done since 2007(?) TBHs harbor no more AFB than more commonly used bee hives and maybe less considering how they are managed and harvested from.

So, especially w/ the BeeWellness Workshops educating beekeepers about diseases and pests across the State of NY, thanks to the efforts of Pat Bono and her Instructors and her Trainees, I don't see where the vast majority of beekeepers in the State would need or even necessarily benefit from Apiary Inspection. Having been an Inspector and having been a beekeeper, in NY and OH, I feel that what is being done now is about as good an Inspection model as we need in this State. I would like to see more inspection of my outfit. But, mostly I think what is done tells me a little bit about what is going on that I might not know about because I don't look or know how to look and have analysed. Such as the National Honey Bee Survey collection of pollen samples and bee samples and checking for tropielalapse Korea (however one spells that).

Mostly I wouldn't worry. Only gives you gray hair.


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

well put mark :applause:

We beeks need to work together for the cause of better beekeeping and leave the state out of things. 
Nick


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> Mike,
> 
> 
> I would like to see the Presidents of all of the Bee Clubs get together for a bull session some time, somewhere. Just to talk, to get acquainted, compare notes, share resources maybe, or whatever. I would like to see someone in Ag&Mkts call or visit each and every Bee Club in the State. Maybe it's already being done, but I haven't heard it's so, so I doubt it. Maybe beekeepers don't want anything from Ag&Mkts or don't need anything from Ag&Mkts. Fine. I'm sure that 95% of all of the beekeepers in NY State are unaffected by the lack of Apiary Inspection.
> ...


all of what you say is true. But for example, this is the last year of BeeWellness unless Pat Bobo gets more funding, so in any case there will not be any Bee Wellness Workshops next year. That would have been a great place to use up that $50,000, instead of looking at specific peoples problems. Or spend the 50,000 seeing if there really is an AFB problem, but using it to fund administrators na.

How about the registration of apiaries, I don't really care myself, but I don't want the AIAC defining the rules. 

and since you have now met me, I take the last line "Mostly I wouldn't worry. Only gives you gray hair" , as a direct shot, all the ones I have left are already that color.

Really my only objective in all this is to gather information and distribute it, it would be nice to see what others think about it, but it seems to me that no one is really that interested.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I am not afraid of the idea of registration. Actually, I believe, if you read the current NYS Bee Laws every beekeeper is supposed to register their apiary(ies) anyway. It's just not enforced and wasn't when I worked. I knew of apiaries that weren't registered and the Boss said, "Leave them alone. There is plenty of work to do."

BeeWellness? Can't agree w/ you more. Just working on figuring out how to do what the Concerned Beekeepers did, but for BeeWellness. I also do believe that eshpa will continue to support BeeWellness beyond the grant. Grant renewal is in the works also. If you or your club benefited from BeeWellness a letter stating so would be nice.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Here is an interesting conception of bee inspection from 100 years ago, in Ontario CA



> Bees have been successfully kept in almost all parts of the province,
> and there are at present upwards of ten thousand persons keeping
> about three hundred thousand colonies and producing average crops of
> from 30 to 50 pounds per colony.
> ...


Pettit, M. (1916). Outline of Apiary Inspection in Ontario. Journal of Economic Entomology


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> it seems to me that no one is really that interested.


People are interested, but discouraged. The battle of ESHPA was waged and ESHPA lost. Many of us had a vision of an all inclusive state association while a few thought that the state Assn. should be by and for the big shots. The 1% I call them. One percent of beekeepers are fulltime, do it for a living. The rest of us, the 99% are in it because we want to keep bees, not because we have to. If people think ESHPA should be a big shots club, to hell with them, let them have it. 

Now they are trying to get the state on board to try to register beekeepers like we are some sort of potential criminals. They already have a law which allows them on your property without a warrant, without even probable cause. There is no reason to inspect law abiding citizen's property to see if their bees are sick. Every hive in the state has varroa, nosema, every sort of virus and crud. It's a bureaucratic boondoggle. 

And you know what else? In every state where the beekeepers have challenged the state's right to search their property without a warrant and without probable cause of a crime being committed, the beekeepers always win and the state always loses. Because by the constitution, they don't have the right to search your property without your permission! Most states do not have apiary registration, nor inspection. Everything these two-bit state governments touch turns to ****.

PS: I didn't type ****, some computer washed my mouth with soap


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> People are interested, but discouraged.


Discouraged is a good word, but I think beeks are more than discouraged, and not just about bee keeping in N.Y. Well anyone know how to challenge the state's right to search without a warrant. I guess if they ever put inspections back in we will all have to refuse and hire the same lawyer. 



peterloringborst said:


> The rest of us, the 99% are in it because we want to keep bees, not because we have to.


not 100% true, most of the old beeks that I know are in it to supplement their soc. sec. so they have some spending money at the end of the month.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> I don't see where the vast majority of beekeepers in the State would need or even necessarily benefit from Apiary Inspection.


I disagree Mark.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> Really my only objective in all this is to gather information and distribute it, it would be nice to see what others think about it, but it seems to me that no one is really that interested.


What is being discussed here by a small set of interested parties does not concern most beekeepers in NY. Meaning that most beekeepers in NY don't seem to be concerned about or by what is being discussed. Maybe it indicates that there are more important things on their lists of concerns. Maybe it indicates they don't feel a need to reflect back to you or anyone else whether they are concerned or not. Maybe whatever else one can imagine. 

Other than getting some direct answer from individual beekeepers there is actually very little to go on. There were after all only three guests at the AIAC Mtng, you, Pat Bono, and me. Well, three others, Alayne Doan, Larry Wayne Winter, and Ted Elks' dog whose name I don't know. They are all related to AIAC members and I assume to some degree interested or else they wouldn't have been there. One person noted that Teds' dog had a place at the table, as did Dan Winters' Dad, but other guests didn't. (chuckle) Not that it matters to me. I could hear everything being said. I don't take that as an indication of how the Committee views Guests.

What kind of feed back did you want? Did you really expect any or much?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



Michael Palmer said:


> I disagree Mark.


How so Michael? I know that you found benefit in the Apiary Inspection you received, at least when Joseph Kohering did your inspections. Had he inspected my apiary to the extent he inspected yours I might feel differently. I know guys that benefited from Apiary Inspectors who took off honey to inspect colonies while honey harvesting was going on. I guess that was a benefit. I know folks whose hives had disease in them who otherwise would not have known about it. Never got thanked for that that I remember. Was told not to expect thanks, so I didn't/don't. So, yeah, I guess my statement wasn't totally accurate. But, the vast majority of the beekeepers in the State of NY only saw an Inspector for a mere part of an hour every few years if at all. Most of the inspections I did the owner was at work or away or uninterested in being in their hive(s) w/ me until I took bad news back to them.

Maybe I should have written "Apiary Inspection as it was"?

Where is the interest in the AIAC and what it does or has effect upon, or in Apiary Inspection? There was a time when most of the beekeepers I came across seemed to not want Apiary Inspection, found no benefit in it, could have cared less what an Apiary Inspector found, or didn't want one on their property. Being an Apiary Inspector at an ESHPA Meeting was almost like what I imagine being a known State Trooper, off duty and out of uniform, at a party where illicit drug use may be going on would be like for the rest of the folks. Always under suspicion. "Gotta be careful what I say or the Inspector will be over at my place tearing my hives apart before I can get home from the meeting." Ah, good times.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> I know that you found benefit in the Apiary Inspection you received,


It's all well and good that an individual beekeeper feels that inspection benefits him or her, but that isn't the point. A real inspection program should benefit all the beekeepers of its jurisdiction. The NYS system never did this. It was a buddy system where some guys got inspected and some guys got a pass. Due to lack of funding, vast regions were never inspected. The goal was never to eradicate foulbrood or any other disease, but to keep the inspection program going. 

When I was inspector I had 10 counties to do and found hundreds of cases of AFB. By the third year, I realized that I was going to find far fewer and suggested to Cappy that he send me to Long Island, which hadn't had an inspector in years. Too expensive he said, Ag & Mkts doesn't want to pay for travel. So -- I inspected the same counties again, mostly the same hives even, that inspected the year before.

Not only that, but there haven't been real scientists overseeing the program in decades, so the whole thing is run by under-qualified and over-paid bureaucrats.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> People are interested, but discouraged.
> 
> PS: I didn't type ****, some computer washed my mouth with soap


Interested in what, Peter? Discouraged about what? I think you took Mikes' comment out of context when you edited it down to a short paraphrase.

Does Aaron let you use four letter words on bee-L?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> When I was inspector I had 10 counties to do and found hundreds of cases of AFB. By the third year, I realized that I was going to find far fewer and suggested to Cappy that he send me to Long Island, which hadn't had an inspector in years. Too expensive he said, Ag & Mkts doesn't want to pay for travel. So -- I inspected the same counties again, mostly the same hives even, that inspected the year before.


You came on too late, Peter. You should have started Apiary Inspection back when there was a travel budget. I don't see that as an attempt to keep certain parts of the State from getting inspected. Would you have rather of been laid off?

Back when I started in 1986 and probably until 1996 there was plenty of Travel Budget money to be had and I, living in St. Lawrence County at the time and now, was sent to Long Island twice for two weeks back to back. I did Chataqua County. Monroe, Orleans, and Niagara Counties. Schyler, Chemung, and Yates. Franklin, the part of Clinton Co not occupied by that guy from French Hill Apiaries , Essex, Warren and Washington. "Have Smoker, Will Travel." I had a mortgage and a truck payment to make during the Winter. I put 15,000 miles on my truck for the State of NY that first year. You were just late, Peter.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

It has occurred to me that this type of dialog is precisely the one the AIAC should be having on a regular basis if they are indeed advising on bee matters within NYS.
And everyone here seems to feel excluded from the present process! Why? it appears to be by design. Just the description of the make up of the meeting by sqcrk smacks of exclusion and special interest (read personal interest).

Very few beekeepers here on Long Island have ever heard of a bee inspector never mind have seen one, and most are backyarders and fairly new to beekeeping. More are joining the ranks every year, some stick with it and others are gone quickly but there are hundreds of these folks. Try telling them the "fictitious" bee inspector has the right to enter their backyards unannounced and uninvited to inspect their bees and see what reaction you'll get.
I haven't heard of one here in years and have seen none since I started on my own with 40+ colonies. 
We don't exist down here I guess.

I don't want to confuse the above mentioned apparent 'lack of interest' with just plain old "lack of information". People are being kept in the dark about beekeeping matters in the State, not notified of changes in a timely manner (often after the fact), there is little to no flow of information, secret legislation, regional exclusion, out dated views on the beekeeping population of the state, and it goes on and on. 
It's happening even to those who are determined to be included and informed.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> Other than getting some direct answer from individual beekeepers there is actually very little to go on. There were after all only three guests at the AIAC Mtng, you, Pat Bono, and me. Well, three others, Alayne Doan, Larry Wayne Winter, and Ted Elks' dog whose name I don't know. They are all related to AIAC members and I assume to some degree interested or else they wouldn't have been there. One person noted that Teds' dog had a place at the table, as did Dan Winters' Dad, but other guests didn't. (chuckle) Not that it matters to me. I could hear everything being said. I don't take that as an indication of how the Committee views Guests.
> 
> What kind of feed back did you want? Did you really expect any or much?


I actually expected no feedback, but would have hoped for some information, having worked in information technology(computers) I love information. Since I sent the same notes out, they should have gone to a few hundred people, many of which I know have very negative feelings on Inspection and Hive registration, but still didn't expect a response. Since last year I had never heard of the AIAC, an open committee, and was unable to get any formal information on what they discussed, and in checking back through the ESHPA newsletters the same people on the committee have been saying getting out the information has been a problem since the committee created, decided to see what was discussed and get a feel for the meeting. And since in private emails people had asked me for the meeting notes that I never got, decided to get the information out earlier. The feel of the meeting was that the entire meeting is controlled by a trifecta , and none of them represent me(side-liner) or the back yard beek. I did agree with Mr. Link, b/4 you go getting inspections going ask the beekeeper, saves time and energy, but that isn't what the trifecta is in MHO trying to achieve.
I personally am not for inspections using inspectors. Peter inspected my hives one year and I had no problem with that as I was familiar with him from bee-l. The next year a new inspector called and made appts three different times to inspect and never showed up, but I got my inspection sheets in the mail, funny the # of hives listed was the same as when peter had inspected, not the # of hives in the yards.
As far as apiary registration, I still have the required signage up in my yards that they required last time, If they would set up a data base with all the listed apiaries locations, I would go for it, that way I could find good areas and then just go see if anyone was in the area. But no one I know wants anyone to know where they are located.

I did find the dog more entertaining than some of the information coming out of the committee :lookout: , but I'll be there next time if I find out when it is. 

wonder what my reception will be next time, now that they know I'm not your brother?:scratch:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I'm not saying this never happened or that I always accomplished making personal contact and permission to inspect, but all inspections were preceded by contacting the apiary owner. I don't recall ever having someone walk up on me w/ a "Who the heck are you and what do you think you are doing in my hives?" I did have one guy in 20 seasons who didn't understand what I was going to do, collect bees and shoot them w/ starting ether to check for mites, who ran me off w/out even letting me reassemble the hive I was working on. He didn't want to go out to look at the hives w/ me, but drove up to the hives in his car while I was working. I guess me killing some of his bees pissed him off somewhat.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



clyderoad said:


> It has occurred to me that this type of dialog is precisely the one the AIAC should be having on a regular basis if they are indeed advising on bee matters within NYS.
> And everyone here seems to feel excluded from the present process! Why? it appears to be by design. Just the description of the make up of the meeting by sqcrk smacks of exclusion and special interest (read personal interest).
> 
> Very few beekeepers here on Long Island have ever heard of a bee inspector never mind have seen one, and most are backyarders and fairly new to beekeeping. More are joining the ranks every year, some stick with it and others are gone quickly but there are hundreds of these folks. Try telling them the "fictitious" bee inspector has the right to enter their backyards unannounced and uninvited to inspect their bees and see what reaction you'll get.
> ...


Do you think that a group of Bee Club Presidents going to Albany for a meeting w/ the Commissioner of Ag&Mkts would be of benefit?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Mike, When ESHPA sends ESHPA newsletters to local club Presidents I have been told that they go no farther. (unless one considers the recycling bin farther) I would hope that they would be made available to the membership at a meeting. But I understand that there are other priorities.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> Do you think that a group of Bee Club Presidents going to Albany for a meeting w/ the Commissioner of Ag&Mkts would be of benefit?


yup. or a new state beekeepers assoc. 
numbers of participants matter in state affairs, ie: votes.
walk in from an assoc. representing a large block of citizen votes and you'll get attention.
just the way it works.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I was thinking more like a Congress of or Council of Bee Clubs from across the State made up solely of Presidents of those associations. Just thinking.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



clyderoad said:


> I don't want to confuse the above mentioned apparent 'lack of interest' with just plain old "lack of information". People are being kept in the dark about beekeeping matters in the State, not notified of changes in a timely manner (often after the fact), there is little to no flow of information, secret legislation, regional exclusion, out dated views on the beekeeping population of the state, and it goes on and on.
> It's happening even to those who are determined to be included and informed.


So have you sent the information provided here to the members in your club or other local beeks?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> I was thinking more like a Congress of or Council of Bee Clubs from across the State made up solely of Presidents of those associations. Just thinking.


Sure if you insure that they have asked their membership


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> So have you sent the information provided here to the members in your club or other local beeks?


yes. we are on a literal and figurative island here and discuss these issues regularly both informally and formally.

it would be nice to have some of these statewide meetings down here on LI.

FWIW this isolation from the rest of the state is nothing new. for example when one joins the Farm Bureau here they join
the LI Farm Bureau which is affiliated with the state farm bureau, not the state bureau directly. if we don't talk among ourselves
there is a big void as limited numbers travel to far away meetings and events.

I do my part but I am not the LI or NY bee press and not responsible for disseminating news. There are organizations formed for this purpose both private and governmental.


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## HungryBear (May 28, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> Other than getting some direct answer from individual beekeepers there is actually very little to go on. There were after all only three guests at the AIAC Mtng,


Mark, I would have come, but I didn't know about the meeting details. :s

-Ben


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## HungryBear (May 28, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I think getting the club's involved such as the Presidents would be good. It also would be a good idea to make a short presentation on ESHPA as a recruiting and educational tool to present to at club meetings so their membership knows about ESHPA and what we do for them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> Sure if you insure that they have asked their membership


How would I insure that anyone do anything? Isn't it up to the membership opf clubs to make sure that their Presidents represent them or that she/he gets replaced?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



HungryBear said:


> Mark, I would have come, but I didn't know about the meeting details. :s
> 
> -Ben


Such as when and where? Or the agenda? Not widely disseminated information, either one. And not my information to spread.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



HungryBear said:


> I think getting the club's involved such as the Presidents would be good. It also would be a good idea to make a short presentation on ESHPA as a recruiting and educational tool to present to at club meetings so their membership knows about ESHPA and what we do for them.


We do have a power point presentation which needs to be completed. It woulkd be nice to get that finished by the end of the year, if not sooner.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I got a reply from Senator Griffos which includes part of a memo from the Bills' Sponsor.

Mr. Berninghausen, 

The bill was referred to the Senate Agriculture Committee where it is still being held. The bill currently has no sponsor in the Assembly. 

Below is an excerpt from the Sponsor's memo regarding the bill. 


From 2011 to 2012, New York beekeepers lost, on average, 30 percent of
bee hives to colony collapse disorder. In 2013, approximately 45 percent
of hives were lost nationally. New York State has 52,000 beehives, each
producing 51 pounds of honey. New York State ranks 10th nationally in
honey production.

The agricultural impact of honeybees stretches far from honey into other
agricultural products such as apples. New York apple growers rely on the
honey bee pollinator to produce apples. Apple trees require two to three
hives per acre to pollinate. A continued dramatic reduction in the
honeybee population could have dire consequences for apple producers and
other stakeholders in the agricultural industry in New York State.

The Honeybee Infectious disease Verification and Elimination (HIVE) Act
will help New York State better support its agricultural industry with
greater testing, analysis, and record keeping that will help bee
diseases to be identified in a more timely manner. This legislation will
also produce a comprehensive report through the Aviary Industry Advisory
Committee that will help guide the policymakers in future action to help
preserve and grow the agricultural industry throughout the State of New York. 


I hope that this is able to provide you with some additional information; if I can be of any additional assistance please do not hesitate to ask. 

Sincerely, 



Senator Joe Griffo 



​


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I read this and noted "aviary industry advisory committee"' heh birds do fly around too. does this mean ny state does not know or understand the difference between birds and bees?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

>"... Aviary Industry Advisory Committee..."

Chickens? Quail? Pheasants?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Yeah, I noticed that too. Most likely means the person who typed it up doesn't know the difference or their spell check didn't allow the proper spelling or any other possibility.


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## HungryBear (May 28, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> Such as when and where? Or the agenda? Not widely disseminated information, either one. And not my information to spread.


I know its not your info to spread, I was not trying to imply that, sorry if I did. Yes time and place.


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## HungryBear (May 28, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> We do have a power point presentation which needs to be completed. It woulkd be nice to get that finished by the end of the year, if not sooner.


Let me know how I can help.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

No problem, Dan. I know you didn't, I just wanted others to know why I didn't broadly disseminate info about something I am not an actual part of. Not being my place to do so, which I know you know and understand.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



HungryBear said:


> I know its not your info to spread, I was not trying to imply that, sorry if I did. Yes time and place.


so my question is, since this is an advisory committee and its open to the public, doesn't that mean that the meeting times have to be published or posted some where by law?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

You'll have to ask a higher authority. No answer here.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

well you know me some what off I go.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> well you know me some what off I go.


http://www.dos.ny.gov/coog/openmeetlaw.html

§104. Public notice. 
1. Public notice of the time and place of a meeting scheduled at least one week prior thereto shall be given to the news media and shall be conspicuously posted in one or more designated public locations at least seventy-two hours before such meeting. 

now I just have to find out where the public location is?

5. When a public body has the ability to do so, notice of the time and place of a meeting given in accordance with subdivision one or two of this section, shall also be conspicuously posted on the public body's internet website. - does this public body have a website, the commiss. does I would think.-

3. Minutes of meetings of all public bodies shall be available to the public in accordance with the provisions of the freedom of information law within two weeks from the date of such meeting except that minutes taken pursuant to subdivision two hereof shall be available to the public within one week from the date of the executive session. 


-would seem that they are in constant violation of this one-

1. Any meeting of a public body that is open to the public shall be open to being photographed, broadcast, webcast, or otherwise recorded and/or transmitted by audio or video means. As used herein the term “broadcast” shall also include the transmission of signals by cable.

-if I record the next meeting, is anyone interested in watching 5 hrs of the meeting/-


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> You came on too late, Peter. You should have started Apiary Inspection back when there was a travel budget. I don't see that as an attempt to keep certain parts of the State from getting inspected. Would you have rather of been laid off?


I never suggested it was deliberate, but the net result is the same. As to whether I would rather be laid off, fact is: I quit. Got a better job.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

What I think is really funny is that there probably aren't so many people all that interested in the AIAC that those individuals couldn't be seated at the table. If you want to mollify disgruntled people, give them what they want. Seems to me that would fix the problem. Meetings might be longer. Rules such as how long anyone can speak on each topic on the agenda might have to be implemented. No one speaks again until everyone has had their turn to turned down their turn.

And so what? What if a 5 hour meeting turned into a 6 or 8 hour meeting. The meeting could have started at 9 instead of 10. I probably drove the farthest and I was there at 9. I bet if meetings did go on for 6 or 8 hours some folks would drop out. 

But, maybe the time constraint is because the Ag&Mkts employees had to be back in Albany by a certain time, I don't know. They sure did rush out of there like Cinderella leaving the ball. I had some questions and they disappeared before I could grab them.

I still don't see why the membership isn't open to whomever wishes to be a member. I don't believe that the number would double. Besides, only three or four out of a dozen people actually spoke. So, if you added 6 people, only 5 or 6 people would actually have anything to say. Therefore the dominant message would still get through.

And what about that? What about the desenting opinion? What if the Committee were run more like the Supreme Court where the desenting opinion is recorded as well as the opinion held by the most Judges.

"Give 'em what they want. That'll shut 'em up."


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> I got a reply from Senator Griffos which includes part of a memo from the Bills' Sponsor.


figuring this must have been generated by someone in his district, I did a detailed search of all the known beeks in his district, and the only one I came up with was

acebird :scratch:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Very funny, Mike. The Bills' Sponsor was not Griffo, it was Gipson. Gipson is from the Dutchess Co area, I believe. So, the way the Districts are built I'm think more likely BMACs' area.

I didn't look at Gipsons' District Map.

That's amazing, Brian aka acebird, and I are in the same District of which Griffo is the State Senator. Isn't that something?

Yeah, Gipson is from Dutchess Co w/ main office in Poughkeepsie. Seems strange to me that this legislation would be coming from someone from that part of the State. Not the part of the State I instantly think of when it comes to bees,beekeeping, commercial beekeeping or otherwise. But, there are beekeepers there, so what do I know?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> "Very funny, Mike.
> 
> That's amazing, Brian aka acebird, and I are in the same District of which Griffo is the State Senator. Isn't that something?":s:s
> 
> the angle to the sun? the smog blowing in from ohio and industrial Ontario? sunspots?? the ink they use on neocide labels???... there must be some explanation???


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Reminds me of a hiway in western NC between Robinsville and Hayesville. Local folks like to say that a calf was taken from its' Mother on one side of the mountain and taken to the other side and turned loose and the engineers followed it back to the calfs Mother marking trees along the way and that's why the road follows the path it does. That must be how Legislative Districts are made. 

I could probably walk into the District next door, which has most of St Law. County in it. What the extreme North Country has to do w/ Utica I don't know. I do know that during the Winter we can be 5 to 10 degrees colder than than the southern end of Senator Griffos' District, but we usually get less snow.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

here is the official documents from the 6/19/2014 meeting along with the committee members and email addresses

if I violate anything please feel free to delete this attachments. meeting minuets are to big will have to find another way.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I know it seems like there is a lot of dancing around the issue when it comes to the AIAC meeting minutes, but to call them "meeting minuets" is taking things a little too far, don't you think? 

Thanks for getting this out there, Mike.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

my fingers are faster than my brain, only format I can find that is small enough to up load, not pretty but you get the info.

not acceptable format as you have to scroll left to right to read it. will try again in the A.M.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I won't have time to figure out how to upload until the next rainy day so anyone who wants the minutes PM me with your email address and I'll send you a copy.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

If you have to scroll left to right to read that file, the issue is your device/system, not the file. It does not have carriage returns (line breaks) except at paragraph ends, but that normally isn't an issue. I didn't modify the text, just pasted it into a quote box:



> New York State Department of Agriculture and Markets
> Apiary Industry Advisory Committee Meeting
> June 19, 2014
> New York State Fairgrounds, Syracuse, NY
> ...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Interesting way to present Meeting Minutes. There was a lot more conversation that could have been presented. But I didn't think that was what was meant by Minutes. Minutes usually are not an actual record of who said what, are they?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

thanks Rader to get it here It was changed from one format to another three times, problem was for me where I ended up was only compatible with beesource's text.

Sqkcrk, I like the way the Meeting Minutes are presented, I prefer in this instance to know who is saying what, I have a better idea if the info is true or contrived. 

now if I can just get them to respond to my last email, I will eventually.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I agree. But what is shown is selective. A lot more than that was said by more people. I searched for Jim Doan's comments that I should be added to the oversight group, just to see if it was included.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> I agree. But what is shown is selective. A lot more than that was said by more people. I searched for Jim Doan's comments that I should be added to the oversight group, just to see if it was included.


I'm more interested in the Jim Doan unreleased studies that he had access to that conclusively proves that neonics are killing the bees, and the documentation on the inert ingredients
that are in the apple sprays(ingredients from apistan and checkmite). I was also interested in Jim Doan and Mr. winters statements that they need help in determining why all their bees are dying, yet on another topic Mr. Cappy stated if they rested their bees at some point in the pollination season, the bees would recover. and not one person commented on that fact.
Seems that Mr Cappy and the commissioner have gone silent on my last proposal:scratch:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

the head of the AIAC sent me this email to announce the up coming meeting for anyone interested.

In case you have not already learned through your "Indian Telegraph", we have scheduled the next meeting of the NYS Apiary Industry Advisory Committee:
Thursday, 20 November 2014, 10:00 AM - 3:30 PM in the NYS Fairgrounds, Arts and Home Center=Building #8, in the kitchen meeting room. This is the day before the ESHPA Annual/Fall Meeting, 21 & 22 November in Syracuse.
Please let me know if you would like to see our tentative agenda.
Also, please note that we are advertizing the search for the Cornell position to conduct applied research on commercial beekeepers' problems with pesticides and miticides as they may relate to late season honey bee health in NYS. (Please see attached position announcement=.pdfile.) Pass the word.
Please confirm your attendance with an email, or call to both Paul Cappy and me.

Stephen O. Wilson, Chairman


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

here is the agenda for the Nov. 20 AIAC meeting.

Wecome and Introductions ………………………………………….Stephen Wilson, Chairman
10:15 Business section
a. Minutes 6/19/2014 approved
b. Member Contact Sheet: Corrections made by members
10:30 Progress on $50,000 applied research grant to Cornell University……………..Stephen Wilson
a. Grant to conduct applied research on commercial beekeepers’ problems with pesticides and miticides as they may relate to late season honey bee health in NYS and the search to fill the Associate Extension position to conduct this research.
b. Position announcement included in packet
11:00 Need to augment funding to complete above project successfully – potential grant from the Farm Viability Institute……………………………………….Scott McArt, Cornell University
11:30 Committee members’ responsibilities as a representative of the State’s beekeepers – conveying those beekeepers’ local information, problems, etc. to the Committee...............Stephen Wilson
12:00 Proposed NY Legislation that is of interest to NY beekeepers: “The Hive Act” by Sen. Gipson., SO #7453 in Senate, May 15 2014 ………………………………………………......Paul Cappy
12:15 -------------------------------------------------LUNCH--------------------------------------------------------
1:00p EPA letter sent by US Senator Edward Markey, requesting information on “the risks posed by pesticides to pollinator health” ………………………………………….…….Stephen Wilson
a. This letter was sent for comment by Farm Bureau. The Department has indicated the letter has several areas of concern that make it hard to comment on.
1:15p Pollinator Protection Plan
a. New York State Conservation Reserve Program (CRP)……… Virginia Green, USDA b. Roadside Flowers and DOT (Debra Nelson – DOT Highway Maintenance )……........ …..Stephen Wilson, Chuck Kutik
c. EPA’s planned actions in response to the President’s June 2014 memorandum – included in packet….……………………………………………………Stephen Wilson
2:45p 2013 National Honey Bee Survey Final Report, Additional Questions or Comments…Paul Cappy


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

here is my interpretation of the minutes for the meeting of 11/20/2014


First let me say that the rooms acoustics were very bad and we were placed far from the committee, so what I heard was limited, my recording is better but I don't want to listen to the meeting again.

the proposal for assessing the impacts of pesticides submitted by cornell i will give a general overview but if anyone wants the entire document give you email address in a PM and I can send you a copy.

Cornell is going to buy 120 nucs from Mr Kutik, transfer to 120 full size hives bought from kelly and given to 30 beeks. 15 beeks will be in high exposure areas, 15 will be in low exposure areas. Cornell will check hive strength, take samples of pollen and honey in May,June, July, Aug and Sept. If they find high mite counts all will be treated the same. at the end of first year all hives are transfered to Dyce labs, in the spring back to the beeks and do it all again. They will check for 234 potential pesticides. Questions came up about when to get the nucs as the state is large in the North may be delayed, and also about feeding. They are going to take the results and present the findings.

My Note- since the hives aren't moving with the commercial beeks, I assume this is to isolate what chemicals are picked up in N.Y. only 

--11:30 re committee members responsibilities as a representative of the state beekeepers and conveying that information to the Committee- Mr Wilson

their was a discussion about getting the information out to beekeepers and making the committee more transparent. Mr. Wilson suggested putting the announcement of the meeting, and the Draft of the Minutes available to the public. They decided that they would have to go to the legal dept. for a ruling on these matters. If they can they will try to put a draft copy on the Ags. and Marketing web site within 45 days. They will have a conference call to resolve issues before submitting the Minutes. This was reopened twice during the meeting so I will put it all here. 
It was suggested that they should find a way to reach out to bee clubs or networks to get information from beeks. 
Mr. Elk said the meeting and committee is completely open and transparent, that this was a problem years ago and is not a problem today.
Mr Wilson completely agreed with Mr. Elk. 

Mr Wilson also said the Committee's job is to work for the Commission, they do not necessarily represent the beekeepers of NY.

It was suggested to Mr. Cappy that since he had the address of all "known" clubs that he should send notice to them, he agreed.


MY note: since I have been trying for over a year to get an agenda and notification of the meeting, including emails to Mr. Wilson, Mr Cappy, and the current Commissioner before the meeting is being held, I do not agree with Mr. Elk. 

--Mr Doan commented that the Bear problem was getting out of hand with many yards being destroyed by bears. Mr Winters said that bears are very smart and will figure a way into the yard including pushing over the posts to get in. Mr Elk said you can eliminate the bear any time without a hunting lic, if they are in, around, or near your yards. after you must call the DEC and report it.

my note this is the actual regulation from the NY web site. The way I read it you must be the owner or lessee so I'm not sure you are covered on others land.

§ 11-0523. Destructive or menacing wildlife; taking without permit.

2. Any bear killing or worrying livestock on land occupied or cultivated, or destroying an apiary thereon, may be taken or killed, at any time, by shooting or device to entrap or entice on such land, by the owner, lessee or occupant thereof, or any member of the owner's, lessee's or occupant's immediate family or by any person employed by such owner, lessee or occupant. The owner or occupant of such lands shall promptly notify the nearest environmental conservation officer and deliver to such officer the carcass of any bear killed pursuant to this subdivision. The environmental conservation officer shall dispose of the carcass as the department may direct.

After lunch

--Virgina Green talked on the CRP Conservation Reserve Program. This is land that people get paid to set aside on a contract basis and are paid by the govt. to let the land sit fallow or are allowed to plant grasses or some pollinator friendly plants. Contracts are for 10-15 years. After the first year the owner is not allowed to use pesticides, herbicides or fertilizers. 
She said they can't allow access to the database but could provide the names and address by county of the people in the programs.
Other programs they control are ELAP and Whips.
The question was asked if the seeds are treated when planted, and she was unsure.
Mr Doan brought up the fact that if the area had been planted with crops that were treated with Neonics, that the residue in the soil may still cause problems with the new grasses picking up this residue.

My Note: I have gotten names of people with whips land and these have all ended up very good yards, but with the current rental price on land many people are letting the contracts expire.

--Roadside mowing. Mr Wilson discussed this with the DOT and they seemed interested. The Dot said that what they recommend for policy is sent to the towns and county but the towns and county are not required to follow its only a recommendation. They wanted to know where it was needed, they would need species to be planted, tolerances, mixes, but they do have the soil attributes available. The Dot was also interested in the savings on fuel etc.
Mr Kutic said they were making it to complicated, just mow once in Oct and let the natural weeds and flowers grow naturally.

It was also stated that there may be Federal Money available to help with the planting.


--The next discussion was on the pollination protection program.

Presidential Memorandum -- Creating a Federal Strategy to Promote the Health of Honey Bees and Other Pollinators


Mr Wilson said he was familiar with such legislation and that it was unfunded, might get funded some day and be of some use.

Mr. Doan said that although not funded it could be a problem for commercial beeks as the provisions shift the responsibility for preventing pesticide kills from the people doing the spraying to the beekeeper as the legislation says they have to give beeks 2 days to move there hives and then they can spray. Mr Doan stated and Mr Winters agreed that this would be impossible for people doing pollination as they couldn't get there hives out of all the orchards in two days when it had taken a week to get all the hives in.

The other problem with this legislation is that it will require Bee hive registration, with a database with all the beekeepers hive location so that the beeks could be notified when someone was going to spray.

My Note: The American Honey Producers Ass. also agrees, I think I sent an email to both clubs recently about this, also one of the pesticide manufacturers has applied for one of the neonics to be used as a spray at higher concentrations and the list of eligible plants are for instance soy bean, corn, and alfalfa. So this would affect most beeks in N.Y.
Since this committee I assume would be the committee that would do the recommending of how to do the registration some attention may be required. 

--The next discussion was from Mr. Cappy regarding the Pollination Protection Plan in NY.

There is a real problem in Western NY with bees dying from pesticides.

They did a survey of 5 commercial beeks that started out with 16,000 colonies in April, by the end of Dec 11,500 had died, that's a death rate of 72.5%.
They took pollen samples and they have been sent off for analysis but the results have not returned. They are also providing these samples to the Cornell research team for their evaluation.

Mr Doan has moved his hives from western N.Y. to Northern NY and now his bees look twice as good as they would have looked if they remained in the west.

Mr Kutik was asked how his bees looked coming back from Blueberries. Depending on where the hives went some were fine, many went from 2 deeps and a med, to just covering 3 frames with bees upon return. A fungicide (TILT) was used which they suspect caused all the damage and or the inert ingredients were changed as this chemical had been used b/4.

--NY tracked 2 bee operations in NY for nosema between 2009-2014.
on June 10, they found 10-20 million spores, went back in Sept and the spore counts were 0.
They came up with two possible theories as to why this happened. The basswood flow was excellent in this location this year.
theory #1- the excellent flow caused all the old bees to die so the new bees didn't get infected.
theory #2- because of the minty smell from basswood there may be a chemical in basswood that may cure nosema.
all nosema found in the tests were Nosema C. no nosema A. was found.

Mr. Cappy also said that all nosema samples will be mapped this year.

Mr Kutik and Mr Winters said they are using Fumidil and would really like to know if it works on Nosema C.
Mr. Doan stated that the Canadian beeks have stopped using it as Canada has stopped buying it for them.

-there was a final report on the National honey bee survey included in the provided information, if anyone wants It I can scan it and send you a copy.


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

the next scheduled AIAC meeting is:

Dear Mr. Bassett:

Per our recent discussion, I have been advised that the next AIAC meeting will be on July 17, 2015 from 10am to 3pm at the Department’s Offices, 10B Airline Drive, Albany, NY 12235.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Sincerely,
/s/

Senior Attorney


----------



## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

That's real convenient for the members in central and western NY, HUH?
Nick
gridleyhollow.com


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



funwithbees said:


> That's real convenient for the members in central and western NY, HUH?
> Nick
> gridleyhollow.com


Talk about convenience....
Ever wonder how beekeepers on Long Island must feel about the locations of these meetings?
Does NYS still have bee inspectors?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



funwithbees said:


> That's real convenient for the members in central and western NY, HUH?
> Nick
> gridleyhollow.com


The meetings are often held at the State Fair Grounds. That should be pretty convenient for someone from Virgil. But if you are really interested in attending the Commissioner's Meeting is any place that inconvenient?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



clyderoad said:


> Talk about convenience....
> Ever wonder how beekeepers on Long Island must feel about the locations of these meetings?
> Does NYS still have bee inspectors?


Yeah, just about anywhere other than LI is inconvenient for someone who lives on LI.

Yes, 2.33 Inspectors. Two full time seasonal Inspectors and one inspector who works 6 weeks.


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



clyderoad said:


> Talk about convenience....
> Ever wonder how beekeepers on Long Island must feel about the locations of these meetings?
> Does NYS still have bee inspectors?


they have had people monitor the meeting by dialing in from a phone and listening, contact "the appropriate people" now that you know there is a meeting scheduled and see what they say, let me know so I can dial in too. never been to albany, don't really want to go.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I don't recall that at an AIAC Mtng, Mike. R u sure about that? I know that happened when the Pre-Pollinator Protection Taskforce Meeting happened.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Even though I have not seen an Agenda for the AIAC Meeting, I imagine that the Pollinator Protection Taskforce will be discussed.


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> I don't recall that at an AIAC Mtng, Mike. R u sure about that? I know that happened when the Pre-Pollinator Protection Taskforce Meeting happened.


yes, don't you remember when the commiss. was part of the meeting by telephone, and you did it with the Pre-pollinator meeting, so they must have the resources available to do it, send a message to the commiss, Paul Cappy, Your congressman, and Assemblyman Magee the chairman of Assembly Agriculture Committee and request that the service be provided at the AIAC meetings.:thumbsup:


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

That's right. I forgot that the Commissioner attended by phone.

They don't have the quality equipment or the know how to operate what they have in a satisfactory way.


----------



## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

They ought to just live stream it. This is 2015!
nick


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Tell the Commissioner, fun.


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



funwithbees said:


> They ought to just live stream it. This is 2015!
> nick


If enough people request it and cause enough fuss, they would have to think about it, but since I have to file a FOIL request to get the minutes and the date of the next meeting, I wouldn't hold my breath but it's worth a try.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Mike, AIAC Meeting announcement on eshpa's Facebook Page has been "reached by 85 people". Viewed, I guess.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> Mike, AIAC Meeting announcement on eshpa's Facebook Page has been "reached by 85 people". Viewed, I guess.


I didn't know the count but a few people have emailed me about it.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> they have had people monitor the meeting by dialing in from a phone and listening, contact "the appropriate people" now that you know there is a meeting scheduled and see what they say, let me know so I can dial in too. never been to albany, don't really want to go.


I must have 50 channels set aside for 'public access' purposes by my tv signal provider. Apparently it's the law, don't know if it's sate or federal.
Some local towns broadcast their meetings on it for the public, along with some other programming but basicly no one uses them as they rarely have any program on.
With the White House Task Force and ALL the bees "dying" and beekeepers filing claims and collecting ELAP money you'd think the AIAC, the Dept. of Ag, etc. would jump at the chance to show us all what a good job they are doing. Albany likes to news clip about how important ($$) Ag is to NY, where we stand as a Ag State compared to other states , how many people work in Ag and so on you'd think this venue would interest them as it's already set up or use.
There does not seem to be a commitment to modernize the flow of information to constituants by the State Ag or for that matter NY Farm Bureau. Come to think of it, NY Farm Bureau should take the lead in this.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> I didn't know the count but a few people have emailed me about it.


What sorts of things have they had to say?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



clyderoad said:


> There does not seem to be a commitment to modernize the flow of information to constituants by the State Ag or for that matter NY Farm Bureau. Come to think of it, NY Farm Bureau should take the lead in this.


When I went to work for Ag&Mkts back in 1986 there was only one desk top computer in the Plant Industry offices and it was on Bob Mungari's desk. He was not the Director of Plant Industry at that time.

Does anyone really think that any NY State Department or Agency would want meetings of an advisory board of theirs broadcast live where they could not control the narrative? 

clyderoad, Farm Bureau has a seat on the AIAC. Seems like something they would have already talked about and decided how to address.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> When I went to work for Ag&Mkts back in 1986 there was only one desk top computer in the Plant Industry offices and it was on Bob Mungari's desk. He was not the Director of Plant Industry at that time.
> 
> Does anyone really think that any NY State Department or Agency would want meetings of an advisory board of theirs broadcast live where they could not control the narrative?
> 
> clyderoad, Farm Bureau has a seat on the AIAC. Seems like something they would have already talked about and decided how to address.


transparency is only a concept and feel good term never to be implemented.

My recollection is of one bee/beekeeper article in the monthly publication of NY Farm Bureau in the last 18 months. Don't know what they have been working on or have decided re AIAC and bees in NY in general because of, well, a lack of transparency there too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Or more simply, nothing is going on worth reporting.

A new Apiary Inspector has been hired. Whether he will continue to be so beyond training is yet to be seen. Is that the sort of news Ag&Mkts should be putting out?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> Or more simply, nothing is going on worth reporting.
> 
> A new Apiary Inspector has been hired. Whether he will continue to be so beyond training is yet to be seen. Is that the sort of news Ag&Mkts should be putting out?



Sure, included within the Apiary section of the Ag Mkts report for all citizens and taxpayers of NY to see. Or included in the weekly report from the New York Field Office, USDA, National Agricultural Statistics Service. 
http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/New_York/Subscribe_to_NY_Reports/index.asp
I'm not to keen on the "nothing worth reporting" idea. Who decides what's worth reporting?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

No one.


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

The reality of all this is that this is only an ADVISORY BOARD to inform the comm. of AG what is happening in our industry. They do not set policy. We are not a high priority in the eyes of AG and markets or the commissioner would actually attend the meetings rather than phone in and they would have real funding for inspection,research ect. Dairy still rules in NY.
Nick:lookout:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

having attended the last few meetings I don't agree with your assessment Nick. things that were recommended from the AIAC committee to the Comish. have been addressed at the next meeting. I will send an email to the Commish, the head of the AIAC, Paul Cappy, and the Rep. that is the head of the Agricultural Commission, request at least an audio feed to the all the meetings as distance prevents people from attending. anything anyone else wants me add, any one want me to add their names to the email as being interested?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> I will send an email to the Commish, the head of the AIAC, Paul Cappy, and the Rep. that is the head of the Agricultural Commission, request at least an audio feed to the all the meetings as distance prevents people from attending. anything anyone else wants me add, any one want me to add their names to the email as being interested?


the silence is deafening :lpf:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

When did you send the e-mail? Saturday?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

below is the agenda for the next meeting.



> AGENDA
> 
> 10:00 Welcome and Introductions ………………………………………….Stephen Wilson, Chairman
> •	Commissioner Ball
> ...


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> b. Commercial beekeepers are considered farmers and right to farm


hmmm. interesting, why only Commercial beeks are to be considered farmers? hmmm does that also mean that out of state commercial beeks are considered NY farmers.
since being considered a farmer in NY gives you so many more rights than the normal person, think this is in their for a reason?
I'm contacting my rep for the aiac meeting and requesting that he/she ask the word Commercial be removed.



> a. Honey Bees formally identified as livestock on the state and federal levels


for those from NY that were involved with the discussion about charging sales tax on nuc's being sold, this should answer the question, bees are not at this time considered livestock, and beekeepers are not considered farmers, so I would deduce that you can't use the exemption form and have to pay sales tax, or collect sales tax??


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## greengage (Jul 6, 2015)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

From way over here it was interesting reading the minutes, I could not understand the bit about opening the border with canada, surley if the bees are flying and you live near the border sure they dont know its a border no more than they would know they are not allowed to fly into someone elses garden. Am I missing something?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I don't know if you are missing something, but maybe I am. I don't know what prompted you to write what you did.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

wildbranch I cant agree with your thoughts. Is someone with 1 cow considered the same as a person with 500 cows. to say the hobby farmer is the same as someone making a living is not correct. a beekeeper making a living has more at stake than someone doing it for a hobby. If the person with 1 cow went to a farm bureau meeting and introduced themselves as a farmer some eyebrows would be raised. just common sense to me.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> I don't know if you are missing something, but maybe I am. I don't know what prompted you to write what you did.


it's very simple, depending on what is forced on us, out of state commercial(whatever they define that as) may/will have more rights in NY than the non commercial beeks that pay taxes here.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



beeware10 said:


> wildbranch I cant agree with your thoughts. Is someone with 1 cow considered the same as a person with 500 cows. to say the hobby farmer is the same as someone making a living is not correct. a beekeeper making a living has more at stake than someone doing it for a hobby. If the person with 1 cow went to a farm bureau meeting and introduced themselves as a farmer some eyebrows would be raised. just common sense to me.


there are already laws/rules on the books that define what a farmer is and and to be specific, I'm probably not going to be under the definition of commercial, but I already qualify as a farmer. I see no problem classifying bees a livestock. I see no problem classifying all bee keepers as farmers. I see a problem with only classifying commercial beeks as farmers. If a beekeepers owns enough land in NY he is all ready classified as a farmer so what change are they trying to affect, as a matter of fact some of the larger commercial beeks are members of the farm bureau now, so why the need for change. When I smell rats in NY, I get worried


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> it's very simple, depending on what is forced on us, out of state commercial(whatever they define that as) may/will have more rights in NY than the non commercial beeks that pay taxes here.


My reply was to the person from Ireland, not to you.

But since you insist, what rights do you imagine someone from out of State might have over someone from In State?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> If a beekeepers owns enough land in NY he is all ready classified as a farmer so what change are they trying to affect, ...


Define "enough land". A Commercial beekeeper, or any beekeeper, doesn't need to own any land at all to be a Commercial beekeeper. 

Define "farmer". What breaks do farmers get from NYS? The STAR Program? What else? There may be some things I am missing out on and don't know it.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> My reply was to the person from Ireland, not to you.
> 
> But since you insist, what rights do you imagine someone from out of State might have over someone from In State?


come on mark use quotes so I can keep track of you.:applause:

what rights? it all depends on what they write into whatever they are going to talk about. If as beware10 states that size matters, then who know what the results will be, my position is size shouldn't matter. If they want to change something, make it consistent for everyone.


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## greengage (Jul 6, 2015)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Wildbranch2007 wrote, since we have a lot of N.Y. beeks on here, anyone think it would be a good idea to set up a couple of threads as a pole to see if beeks really want #1 bee inspection
#2 apiary registration #3 the border with canada open? and no matter what the results of the pole, who to give the information to that would matter?
There is a lot of traffic on this thread i was wondering about the piece with opening the border with Canada, Since i live so far away i am curious what this is about.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



greengage said:


> #3 the border with canada open? and no matter what the results of the pole, who to give the information to that would matter?
> There is a lot of traffic on this thread i was wondering about the piece with opening the border with Canada, Since i live so far away i am curious what this is about.


I'm no expert but the border was closed many years ago, because USA had diseases/mites/shb etc that Canada didn't/doesn't have. This stopped the canadians from having access to package bees from the USA. We can import queens from canada, and canada can import queens from the usa, but no comb can cross the border. every once in a while some one on one side of the border or the other wants to open it up, and other people want to keep it closed. neither side is all that interested it would seem, usa beeks don't want the competition in Almonds, canadians don't want competition for their honey sources, the politicians on both sides are trying how to get re-elected and keep the gravy train coming.
so people just talk about it. it's good for a good argument every couple of years. Mark is close to the border, so his views may vary.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

wildbranch If I buy a used or new truck in nys I sign an agr. exemption and pay no sales tax. this is the same as any farmer. your saying if you have a dozen hives you should have the same benefit. most of the time I agree with your posts but your way off on this one.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> Define "farmer". What breaks do farmers get from NYS? The STAR Program? What else? There may be some things I am missing out on and don't know it.


here is on that I ran across that I'm sure would interest beek farmers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/16/u...ing-the-law-may-soon-gain-clearance.html?_r=0



> Farmers Flying Drones May Soon Be Given Clearance


 :ws: now all you commercial farmer beeks can go and see what's around the area for floral sources, us pion small beeks can't, purely discrimination and unfair competition.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



beeware10 said:


> wildbranch If I buy a used or new truck in nys I sign an agr. exemption and pay no sales tax. this is the same as any farmer. your saying if you have a dozen hives you should have the same benefit. most of the time I agree with your posts but your way off on this one.


I'm saying that's what happens now, regardless of how many hives people have. take a look at what the law states for using the sales tax exemption, most of the people using it are not using it legally, makes no difference what else they change. If you want a perfect example, when I lived in Mass. had a few hives, went to better bee to buy some stuff, the first thing they did is give me the form, I filled it out and didn't pay taxes. they didn't ask me if I had two or two thousand hives, didn't even ask me if I lived in NY.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> b.	Commercial beekeepers are considered farmers and right to farm


and even better argument regarding comm. beeks only being considered farmers with the right to farm!! 

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/AGM/25-AA/308



> N.Y. AGM. LAW § 308 : NY Code - Section 308: Right to farm - See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/AGM/25-AA/308#sthash.pKsTDbEn.dpuf





> . Upon the issuance of an opinion pursuant to this section, the commissioner shall publish a notice in a newspaper having a general circulation in the area surrounding the practice and notice shall be given in writing to the owner of the property on which the practice is conducted and any adjoining property owners. The opinion of the commissioner shall be final, unless within thirty days after publication of the notice a person affected thereby institutes a proceeding to review the opinion in the manner provided by article seventy-eight of the civil practice law and rules. 3. Notwithstanding any other provisions of law, on any land in an agricultural district created pursuant to section three hundred three or land used in agricultural production subject to an agricultural assessment pursuant to section three hundred six of this article, an agricultural practice shall not constitute a private nuisance, when an action is brought by a person, provided such agricultural practice constitutes a sound agricultural practice pursuant to an opinion issued upon request by the commissioner. - See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/AGM/25-AA/308#sthash.pKsTDbEn.dpuf


so now that the commercial beek farmers are covered under the right to farm law, the commish has is the final authority, now why limit it only to commercial, lets get a good law written that works for all beeks, not a few selected individuals:thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> come on mark use quotes so I can keep track of you.:applause:
> 
> what rights? it all depends on what they write into whatever they are going to talk about. If as beware10 states that size matters, then who know what the results will be, my position is size shouldn't matter. If they want to change something, make it consistent for everyone.


Quotes? My reply was right below the Post I replied to and even used his words. Pay attention. :lpf:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



greengage said:


> There is a lot of traffic on this thread i was wondering about the piece with opening the border with Canada, Since i live so far away i am curious what this is about.


Beekeepers cannot legally transport beehives from one country to the other. Of course, bees don't know or pay attention to international agreements between men.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> now all you commercial farmer beeks can go and see what's around the area for floral sources, us pion small beeks can't, purely discrimination and unfair competition.


I let my bees do that themselves. Tom Charnock used to do that with a small airplane. Yer whining about something just to whine.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> Yer whining about something just to whine.


I object this isn't tailgater ya know.:shhhh: and you just keep asking questions so I'll go look up the answer for you:kn:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> I object this isn't tailgater ya know.:shhhh: and you just keep asking questions so I'll go look up the answer for you:kn:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

here is another answer for Mark b/4 the aiac meeting about JAPANESE KNOT-
WEED. .

http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/A7149-2015



> (C)(I) THE DEPARTMENT SHALL ESTABLISH, NO LATER THAN ONE YEAR AFTER
> THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THIS SUBDIVISION, AT LEAST TWO FIVE-YEAR PILOT
> PROGRAMS TO DETERMINE THE MOST COST-EFFECTIVE METHOD OF REMOVING THE
> NON-NATIVE PLANT SPECIES IDENTIFIED IN PARAGRAPH (A) OF THIS SUBDIVI-
> ...


anyone know the other two invasive species? I suspect that one of these is napp weed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Purple Loostrife, perhaps.

Maybe that's something you can ask the Commissioner or his Deputy at the ESHPA Summer Picnic on Saturday.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

AIAC meeting minutes for 7/17/15

AIAC Committee Meeting
July 17th, 2015
New York State Department of Agriculture and Markets

Members in attendance: Roberta Glatz, Ted Elk, James Doan, Charles Kutik, Daniel Winter, Richard Linck, Jonathan Ryan, Sam Hall, Ronald Tweedie, Earl Villecco, Jerry Howell, Stephen Wilson, Peter TenEyck, Nicole Horowitz. New York State Department of Agriculture and Markets: Commissioner Ball, Paul Cappy, Chris Logue, Kathleen Close. Guests: Karen Kutik, Karl Parker, Scott McArt, Emma Mullen, Dave Grusenmeyer, Larry Higgins, Ann Ryan, Frank Stanton, Mark Berninghausen, Tim Pileman.
Business Section:
1.	Chairman Stephen Wilson called the meeting to order at 10:08 a.m.
2.	The group went around the room and introduced themselves. 
3.	Wilson put forth a motion to approve the minutes of the AIAC from November 20, 2014.
4.	Ted Elk approved the motion, seconded by Dan Winter. All were in favor. 
5.	The member contact sheet was circulated for revisions. 
6.	Wilson: Asked to have the minutes move out faster.
Paul: I think we sent out the draft by email to most people roughly 6 weeks after approval. If the email is satisfactory, we will continue to send it out to everyone that way.
7.	Wilson: Reflects potential reappointments on a 3 year term 
8.	Paul: Do we want to do anything with the Cornell Contact?
Wilson: Nick Calderone was the honey bee person at Cornell at the time. Do we want to continue to have that contact? I think it’s important to get your opinions on who it might be, there is no immediate intent to fill Nick Calderone’s position based upon budgetary problems at Cornell. 
Group: Discussion on who should fill the position at this time. Consider having Scott fill position and ask Emma be his alternate.
Earl Villecco put forth motion and Ted seconded that we advise the Commissioner that we would like to add Scott McArt and Emma Mullen to 
be Cornell’s Contact position

Group discussion on:
•	Empire Honey Producers being member of AIAC
•	Chuck Kutik made liaison to ESHPA last meeting
Wilson: AIAC will send to the Commissioner a recommendation list requesting him to appoint two people from Cornell. List of recommendations should be attached. 
Ted Elk: Asked for a vote, all were in favor. 
Input on next year’s budget:
Wilson: Paul or Chris want to make any comments on what you hope will be in the budget, where Ag & Market seems to be now?
Chris: The divisions will be submitting on August 7th what is called a budget story. Outlining needs of various divisions gets passed up to through our leadership here in the department then passes on through the state process. When we get numbers back we prioritize programs and needs. I think it’s great to have the conversation about what we all would like to see the Department do and at the division level we see apiary inspection as very very important priority. 
Group: Discussion on state budget and the various lines of funding such as local assistance. Need for a broader Apiary Inspection Program and the importance of it. Possibility of huge influx of disease and especially with American foulbrood (AFB). The apiary inspectors are at a lower staff level after 2010. AFB is going to be a problem 6-8 years down the road. Migratory beekeepers are very worried about the interstate certification of honey bees. Inspection program which included
•	Program is stifled due to the many regulations put in place on apiary inspectors. For example the number of hives allowed to be owned by an apiary inspector
•	Currently only migratory beekeepers are inspected
•	The Department needs to hire more beekeepers
•	The Bee Wellness program should continue and to continue educating beekeepers on pests and diseases.
•	An apiary inspection program should inspect NYS produced NUCS that are being sold.
•	Beekeepers do not know how to identify American foulbrood and that makes the need to have more bee inspectors in NYS.
•	Would have to have an extensive training program for inspectors 
•	Increase the number of inspectors
•	More funding for the Bee Wellness program
The group suggested forming a subcommittee in advising the Department on what would like to be seen in domestic inspection. The committee is made up of the following members:
•	Dan Winter
•	Jim Doan
•	Peter TenEyck
•	Jon Ryan
•	Mark Berninghausen
•	Scott McArt/Emma Mullen

Adjourned for lunch at 12:09 PM

Reconvened meeting at 12:50

Presentations:
Wilson: Introduced Commissioner Ball

Commissioner: Asks for introductions again. Discusses the recent visit with the Minister of Ag from Poland and they were looking at beehives at Red Hook Community Gardens. The Commissioner discussed the importance of coming up with the best management practices for farmers, land owners and beekeepers. Discussed involving Parks (along with DEC) in utilizing State owned land as areas for wildflower plantings. Commissioner also discussed coming up with best management practices for state highway and towns in regards to mowing. He said there is going to have listening sessions coming up for Pollinator Protection Plan.

Presentation by Scott McArt:
•	Assessing the impact of pesticides on honey bee health in New York. 
•	Colony loss from 2013-2014 (27%) and 2014-2015 (54%). 
•	2014-2015 year had the greatest summer loss and New York is above the national average. 
•	Cornell is currently doing what essentially mimics the commercial beekeepers activities. 
•	Scott discussed the sampling process and how often samples were taken. 
•	Pollen sampling will determine the percent of what type of pollen is being samples. 
•	Cornell is doing pesticide residue testing on pollen. 
•	Cornell still needs to sample pollen from beekeeper colonies near corn and see if bees are bringing in “neonics” from seed treated corn. 

Paul: Introduced Karl Parker with DEC to answer questions on bears 

Presentation by Karl Parker (Wildlife Biologist):
•	Discussed the increase of bear population across New York State
•	Bears will not be eliminated from New York State, they are here to stay. 
•	Handed out a map of Black Bear Population Management and hunting zones.
• Bear hunting has expanded, almost all of New York State is open to bear hunting except Long Island and New York City. 
•	Do not what to get into a situation like New Jersey and have a bear problem because bears move. 
•	They have a management rule for dealing with nuisance problems, 3 strikes and you’re in an out situation. .
•	Very rarely does DEC relocate bears because it does not work.

Brief discussion for next meeting, discuss CRP Land more.
Group: Discussion on whether or not bees are considered livestock under workman’s comp and trucking (yes they are)

Paul: Knotweed legislation has been passed by the senate but not signed by the governor. Looking for the best way to control it. 

Paul: When the commissioner comes up with a stakeholders meeting, the Pollinator Protection Plan (PPP) will be discussed. We were hoping to cover a lot of that conversation here on the Pollinator Protection Plan. 

Wilson: 19th of November at the Syracuse Fair grounds for next meeting. 
We will meet again after Pollinator Protection Action Plan is made public.
Paul: Would that be around the date when the ESHPA Directors have their meeting?
Group: Usually, very early in March

Adjourn: 3:15 PM


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

meeting commenced at 10:00 11/19/2015

Paul cappy started the discussion about hive registration

we need registration so that researchers can get funding for grants.

Ryan : what were the problems with previous registration. cappy no comment

cappy need it because of the federal govt's PPP Pollinators protection plan 

This is the proper time for registration because of PPP from the beekeepers point of view.

Paul Cappy, discuss the points for and against.

state needs to know how many beeks and how many hives, for funding. need to know if there are enough hives for pollination

need a way to monitor progress or loss.

cappy said this would be proposal from the beekeeps up instead of the way it went last time.
My only comment is, all of the attached documents, came from Cappy and the committee didn't see them until they opened the packets, so not really from the beeks up in my opinion.

Winters - reg how many of my farmers are going to say get out.

Sam- must sell registration by having local inspectors.

Linck- is this what we are doing, coming up with a plan acceptable and turn over to the DEC and AG and Marketing, this is what we accept.

Link - How do you get this information out to the beeks.

Wilson- data will only be used in summary country wide.

cappy - no maps will be made available so that all the commercial guys end up in the good areas.
example provided. one florida beek with 900 hives goes to one town in allegany county, next year a second and third florida beek with
200 and 500 hives wanted in the same town.
because of the California drought, florida normally has 350,000 migrant hives now they have 500,000

Winters- the are offering 1,000 to land owners and stealing hive locations. 

Kutic -need out reach to clubs because of how registration was done last time, this is from the AIAC, not necessarily from beeks.

Emma - did her presentation on how the data in ontario using the mandatory registration helps the researchers. I didn't scan the provided copies as it was just copies of reports, on hive #, afb, ets.

When it was suggested that Cappy should go around to all the clubs, he said, I'm the Govt, it has to come from the beeks.

Michelle Colopy- can't get funding without data
Ohio- I think she said it's voluntary, but they have 5000 registered and 800 in the state organization.
she also said that ohio isn't doing a PPP, as it wouldn't work and be a waste of time.

Cappy and the other person from Ags and Marketing, think that the current apiary laws, will enable them to implement registration without a new law being written. Using the current law that requires you the beekeeper to notify the Commish every time you move a hive, or comb. The current laws also allow fines, so they can use that to require registration.

Cappy also said that ags and Mkt. reports to the Gov, not the legislature.

cappy- looking at implementing in 12 mo. time for the commish to look at the guidance recommended by the AIAC, and time for the clubs to get a chance to digest it  MY note: they really have not left any way to object, you can write your congressman, but they don't report to the legislature. the guidance has already been forwarded to the commish. Only way if your against it, I guess would be to write your congress man and get the state to stop funding the research, then they wouldn't need registration.

Kutick - do away with the 48 hr rule about requiring beeks to move there hives b/4 spraying, no way hives can be moved, other commercial beeks agreed.

Most members agreed with the registering of bee keepers. 

the files I have been trying to upload are to large, If anyone wants a copy pm me your email address and I can send them to you. I did attach two that were small enough.


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## SquirrellyOne (Feb 24, 2015)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Thanks for attending and posting these summaries. It's interesting information even as just a hobbyist with a couple hives here in NY


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> the files I have been trying to upload are to large,


What format and how big?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> cappy - no maps will be made available so that all the commercial guys end up in the good areas.


That's pretty funny. That's exactly what he did for years. He had almost no bees in his own county, only other counties where the best locations were



> The current laws also allow fines, so they can use that to require registration.


Typical government tactic. We are going to help you and if you don't want it, you will pay a fine.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

In all reality what does cappy really do? years ago his position used to manage 23 plus inspectors. now he has 2. he must have a hard time looking busy during the winter when his force of 2 are laid off. I'm sure he is eager for more paper work to justify his position.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



beeware10 said:


> Ryan : what were the problems with previous registration. cappy no comment


Jon Ryan was an inspector in the 1970s. Then, when he had his own bees, he didn't want inspection. Until one of his neighbors gave him a case of AFB. I was able to persuade the neighbor beekeeper to register, get his hives inspected (by me) and we burned up the baddies. Now Jon is all in favor of inspection. 

My question is: what do the taxpayers get for the money? This is not like dog registration, vehicle registration, etc. where it's a matter of public safety. In my opinion, the way to handle bee disease is through education, not government funded witch hunts. Far more hives die from varroa than AFB anyway. The laws are 100 years old.

I asked Chuck Kutick how much he worried about AFB. He told me "Of all the things that keep me up at night worrying, that isn't one of them." The whole thing is a tactic to get taxpayers' money to spend on their pet projects. NY is the most corrupt state in the USA, this is just one more example of it.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



Barry said:


> What format and how big?


the problem I have, is I scan the documents from my printer, I only have two choices, jpeg, or pdf. one page of scanned data is to large to upload. neither file type on my computer lets me cut and paste out of them. the pdf ends up using adoby( don't ask me for the choice words I use with it) but I'm too cheap to buy the add on's that will convert it to a readable file. My wife's computer has the advanced copy of adoby, and It will convert the files, but still will not allow a cut and paste, and the files are still to large. When I get files sent from one source in the govt. I get it in a source that allows uploads, all the others end up in adoby that should be banned. If you look at the files I have uploaded (note they say they will go away after some amount of time, mine have been there for months you should get an idea) thanks mike


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> Typical government tactic. We are going to help you and if you don't want it, you will pay a fine.


they said the law allowed it, but they actually couldn't remember if any one had ever been fined. also didn't know what the form was for transporting bees out of ones yards.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> My question is: what do the taxpayers get for the money? This is not like dog registration, vehicle registration, etc. where it's a matter of public safety. In my opinion, the way to handle bee disease is through education, not government funded witch hunts. Far more hives die from varroa than AFB anyway. The laws are 100 years old.
> 
> I asked Chuck Kutick how much he worried about AFB. He told me "Of all the things that keep me up at night worrying, that isn't one of them." The whole thing is a tactic to get taxpayers' money to spend on their pet projects. NY is the most corrupt state in the USA, this is just one more example of it.


Kutik seems like a stabilizing voice in the discussions. Don't you think that AFB will become more widespread once there is no more access to antibiotics. My opinion, is they are using the chance to get money to study bees, to get an idea of the # of beeks and hives, to then go for more inspectors and build the group back up.

If they actually set it up correctly, the beeks with internet could enter there own data, but they said " the data would not be on an accessible computer" but in reality they are only registering the beeks so far, you don't have to give the location of your hives. All of the commercial beeks agree with it but as Mr Winters said, they are already registered.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> Don't you think that AFB will become more widespread once there is no more access to antibiotics. My opinion, is they are using the chance to get money to study bees, to get an idea of the # of beeks and hives, to then go for more inspectors and build the group back up.


Antibiotics are not going away. They are talking about delisting terramycin for bees, but it will remain on the market for other livestock, so anyone can buy it. Tylosin will probably remain available, I haven't heard that it is going to be delisted. Commercial beekeepers have been using ag chemicals in their hives for decades, they don't care what the laws are.

My opinion, the whole thing is a set up to make it easier for beekeepers to claim large losses and get payments from the government. A while back a beekeeper with a hundred hives tried to file a claim of loss, and the State Inspector told him that he had no claim, the bees starved. Without even sending someone out to look at them. Meanwhile the big guys get $100,000 ELAP payments, for "CCD." 

What is CCD? Bees gone, don't know why. Might the bees don't do that well when you are going from state to state trying to drum up support for your bee problems instead of looking after them.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> Cappy and the other person from Ags and Marketing, think that the current apiary laws, will enable them to implement registration without a new law being written. Using the current law that requires you the beekeeper to notify the Commish every time you move a hive, or comb. The current laws also allow fines, so they can use that to require registration.


This is hot air. I have a copy of the law and there is nothing in it about registration. That's why the law was passed a few years back to require beekeepers to register, it was not a requirement. Then, a huge campaign was mounted to repeal it, which succeeded. Just on the face of it, any beekeeper that wants to do the whole thing over again is suggesting that we spend all that time and money again for something the majority already has stated _they don't want._ Does this not sound ridiculous to you? 

There has never been any restriction on moving hives and combs around New York State. Never! Diseased hives, yes, but not healthy ones. Do you think every time a beekeeper throws supers on the back of his truck, moves hives to pollinated, moves hives to a new location, goes and catches a swarm, somebody has to be notified? THat is flat out absurd. And there is no fine attached with anything except harboring or moving AFB hives. Which is also a joke. The large scale beekeepers have been moving AFB into "hospital yards" since the 1950s. 

The problem with these discussions is they are made up of half people who know almost nothing about these things and the other half knows better but is trying to manipulate the situation for their own benefit.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> My wife's computer has the advanced copy of adoby, and It will convert the files, but still will not allow a cut and paste, and the files are still to large.


You can send the stuff to me, I can edit, compress, do anything in the world with scans and pdf files.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> All of the commercial beeks agree with it but as Mr Winters said, they are already registered.


All of the commercial beeks? Only a small percentage of them are ever at these meetings. Most don't have time for this stuff. The vocal few almost never accurately represent anybody but themselves and their own special concerns.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Here are files from Mike that go with Post #130.

View attachment RegForm1.pdf

AIAC Meeting Sept 18, 2015


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> All of the commercial beeks? Only a small percentage of them are ever at these meetings. Most don't have time for this stuff. The vocal few almost never accurately represent anybody but themselves and their own special concerns.


All the commercial beekeepers present at the meeting and at the table.

Don't have the time for this stuff? Or they don't care? Don't feel it worth their time? Or not a priority for them? See little or no value and have better things to do with their lives? 

Why is it that only a small number ever show up? Is it really because they don't care? Or maybe don't think it will effect them if their is Beekeeper Registration or not? Or is it because they don't know about the meetings? I would love to see as many people in seats not at the table as at the table. But no one but a small few, not married to those at the table, ever take the time to be there. For various reasons. Perhaps first and foremost because they don't know there is a meeting and don't know what the meeting is about. And secondly because the "participatory nature" and "ground rules" are that noncommittee voices MAY be allowed to speak at the end of the meeting, if there is time. (which I never understood at all. heaven forbid should a meeting go another hour because of comments or conversation from the audience. after all the effort took to get to the meeting site.)

"The vocal few ..." Then, if one feels it is important to them at a personal level, more the reason to show up to the meetings. And don't let those running the meeting shut you up. And object without being objectionable. I know if I had anything intelligent and meaningful to contribute that there would be no objection to my interjecting comment. But maybe that is a personality issue. More so than a point of view issue.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

How would one go about getting the data without a Registration of Beekeepers? Even if such a Registration of Beekeepers is implemented the participation level will not include 100% of all of the beekeepers in NY State. It never has. But the data would be more complete and more accurate with Beekeeper Registration, wouldn't it? Peter?

If you or I or the Governor wanted to know how many beekeepers and bee hives there are in NYS, how would you suggest one determine that? And to what degree of accuracy?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> How would one go about getting the data without a Registration of Beekeepers? Even if such a Registration of Beekeepers is implemented the participation level will not include 100% of all of the beekeepers in NY State. It never has. But the data would be more complete and more accurate with Beekeeper Registration, wouldn't it? Peter?


Hi Mark

I am sorry that I am not at the meeting, so we could talk in person about these matters. I am no longer a member of ESHPA, although I am willing to consult as someone who has been keeping bees in New York State since 1974, has owned hundreds of hives, has worked in research, as a NYS apiary inspector, and is the published author of 30 articles in the American Bee Journal. I was not invited to that or any other table, however.

I submit that NY State has soured the beekeeping public on any form of registration, inspection, cooperative extension outreach, etc. They would have to hire all new people to ever hope to obtain the trust and confidence of beekeepers in this state. I think it is ridiculous to suppose that they can register any more than 10% of the beekeepers. But even if they got 50% on board, that would not be more accurate, because of skew. 

If a data set is skewed, it doesn't matter how big it is, it's still skewed. In other words, if you have a car whose alignment is way out of wack, it doesn't matter how far you drive it, it still won't go straight. It will always pull to one side. Same with a skewed data set, more numbers won't increase its accuracy. A bigger set will only impress people that are impressed by big numbers, not people who are interested in fairness and accuracy.

To obtain fairness and accuracy the AIAC would have to be made up of a fair cross section of the Apiary Industry, which it isn't. New York State government doesn't want fairness, the AIAC doesn't want fairness. The citizens of NY are not represented by this government, the beekeepers of NY are not represented by this AIAC. It's business as usual: influence peddling and cronyism.

Peter Loring Borst
Ithaca, NY


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> If you or I or the Governor wanted to know how many beekeepers and bee hives there are in NYS, how would you suggest one determine that? And to what degree of accuracy?


Frankly, Mark, at this point I think it's nobody's dam business if I or my neighbors have honey bees. Do they have a census on who grows apples in their yards?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> Hi Mark
> 
> If a data set is skewed, it doesn't matter how big it is, it's still skewed. In other words, if you have a car whose alignment is way out of wack, it doesn't matter how far you drive it, it still won't go straight. It will always pull to one side. Same with a skewed data set, more numbers won't increase its accuracy. A bigger set will only impress people that are impressed by big numbers, not people who are interested in fairness and accuracy.
> 
> ...


Would you characterize BIP's reports and conclusions made from them skewed too? How would you characterize them? And why?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> Frankly, Mark, at this point I think it's nobody's dam business if I or my neighbors have honey bees. Do they have a census on who grows apples in their yards?


So, you would be fine if Beekeeper Registration and the AIAC were only all about Commercial Beekeepers, their colony count within the State and in which counties at what concentration? And leave anyone below a certain hive count out of the process, out of the equation?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> Would you characterize BIP's reports and conclusions made from them skewed too? How would you characterize them? And why?


Absolutely. There was a long, interesting piece in the New Yorker a week or so ago about surveys and polls, how inaccurate they are and the results of using them to guide policy and public opinion. 

Doing a fair, accurate survey is NOT about getting large numbers, it's about consciously detecting skew and not allowing it to affect the outcome. Unfortunately, most surveys don't correct for this, preferring to get large numbers and they use the large numbers as "proof" of the effectiveness of their surveys. 

A proper sampling must involve a lot of work in identifying and choosing the target populaiton. Then the hurdle of low response must be overcome. In short, people are sick of polls and surveys, so response is low. The respondents tend to come from a particular group who is vocal and wants to be heard, whereas the quiet thoughtful voices are not heard.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> So, you would be fine if Beekeeper Registration and the AIAC were only all about Commercial Beekeepers, their colony count within the State and in which counties at what concentration? And leave anyone below a certain hive count out of the process, out of the equation?


Actually, I don't see anything wrong with registration, per se. I registered in California and I am registered in NY. I support bee inspection, too. What I object to is the way this is being shoved down people's throats in direct contradiction to the fact that beekeepers in NY have already voiced their opposition to it. I object to the way the inspection has been carried out in NYS. I object to 90% of what the NY government does. They have the Midas touch in reverse. Everything they touch turns to crap.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

STEP 1. the starting point for any discussion:
how many beekeepers are in NYS?
how many hives? (ag & mkts guess, 55-60K)

tell me how one should go about obtaining answers to these 2 basic questions.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Hive registration:

If they outlaw beekeeping, then_ only outlaws will have bees!_


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

I must admit, that when I first found about AIAC, I volunteered to be a member, still waiting, I have to track down cappy and email him regularly to find out when meetings are, they are open meetings, go to the AGS + mkt website, search on aiac, and you get 4 hits of old budget information. So I started to go to the meetings assuming that AIAC committee was not meeting my expectations. They don't but I don't think its necessarily all the members, they don't get the information until the day of the meeting, they were reading it trying to get ahead of the meeting. I have asked how to get questions onto the agenda, they say get it to your rep. b/4 the meeting(when is it), how can I get information onto the agenda, when I don't know what the agenda is. An open meeting has to make the minutes available within a few weeks of the meeting, I have had to file FOIL request to get some copies of the minutes, and they take a full month after the two weeks to get them to me. I filed a foil request to get the lawyer to tell me when the meetings were, that foil request worked for the next meeting. Now I don't want anyone to think that they are hiding anything mind you, but if a few more people would start filing foil request for dates on meeting and minutes, maybe someone(the lawyer) would get sick of it and get them to follow the law. as far as registration, in the current proposed form, it can't work, since they are registering the beek, how would an inspector driving by a bee yard know if whomever owns that yard had registered. I'm already registered for my home yard anyway.

Barry how did you shrink it down so I can do it next time??


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> I must admit, that when I first found about AIAC, I volunteered to be a member, still waiting


I'm pretty sure they are not looking for volunteers. The members are hand picked by the people already there.

P


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> Absolutely. There was a long, interesting piece in the New Yorker a week or so ago about surveys and polls, how inaccurate they are and the results of using them to guide policy and public opinion.
> 
> Doing a fair, accurate survey is NOT about getting large numbers, it's about consciously detecting skew and not allowing it to affect the outcome. Unfortunately, most surveys don't correct for this, preferring to get large numbers and they use the large numbers as "proof" of the effectiveness of their surveys.
> 
> A proper sampling must involve a lot of work in identifying and choosing the target populaiton. Then the hurdle of low response must be overcome. In short, people are sick of polls and surveys, so response is low. The respondents tend to come from a particular group who is vocal and wants to be heard, whereas the quiet thoughtful voices are not heard.


How do you feel about Ag Statistic Surveys and the conclusions made from them?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> Actually, I don't see anything wrong with registration, per se. I registered in California and I am registered in NY. I support bee inspection, too. What I object to is the way this is being shoved down people's throats in direct contradiction to the fact that beekeepers in NY have already voiced their opposition to it. I object to the way the inspection has been carried out in NYS. I object to 90% of what the NY government does. They have the Midas touch in reverse. Everything they touch turns to crap.


If the Honeybee Specialist did a Beekeeper Registry would you feel better about that? Or would that be "be shoved down people's throats" too?

How would someone or anyone get as accurate a picture of the number of beekeepers and the number of apiaries and the number of hives in those apiaries in a way with which you would be comfortable?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> I'm pretty sure they are not looking for volunteers. The members are hand picked by the people already there.
> 
> P


Those who care enough to go to the meetings of the AIAC need to get around this thing about not being able to talk at the meetings. Make yourself congenial enough to become allowed to speak. Do as I did with the Pollinator Protection Task Force and get yourself seated behind a Committee member who will pass your comments on to the rest of the committee or ask you to speak yourself. It's too bad that such games or tactiks have to be performed, but if nit means something to you then you will do it.

Michael, no one, the two times I interjected comments, told me to be quiet, did they? I am not only friends with most of the committee members, I am friendly with them. Peter, you and Aaron have not been. You have an attitude and seem to have a grudge and such a distasteful opinion of the whole thing, especially the people involved, that it surprises me somewhat that you even have opinions to share. The way you feel about eshpa and the AIAC I don't see why you even take the time and effort to comment on it.

Give me something positive to take away.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> How do you feel about Ag Statistic Surveys and the conclusions made from them?
> "It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." Henry David Thoreau, Mark B


I am sorry, but it does matter what you look at, and how you look at it. What you see depends entirely where and how you look. That is the problem with bias, you look where you want for what you want, and miss everything else. 



> Nasrudin was on his hands and knees by the street light.
> The man asked, "Nasrudin, what are you looking for?"
> Nasrudin replied, “my house key."
> "Let me help you," said the man, and got down on all fours, patting the grass and looking intently.
> ...


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> Peter, you and Aaron have not been. You have an attitude and seem to have a grudge and such a distasteful opinion of the whole thing, especially the people involved, that it surprises me somewhat that you even have opinions to share. The way you feel about eshpa and the AIAC I don't see why you even take the time and effort to comment on it.


Aaron, Pat and I were run out of ESHPA. That's why I feel the way I do.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

Is it possible there exists people so jaded they can not offer anything constructive?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Is it possible there exists people so jaded they can not offer anything constructive?


Well, let's start. Suppose you have an old farm house that the cellar is so old it's caved in and the beams are so rotten they can't support weight. What constructive suggestion could you make? None. The only suggestion would be to tear the wretched thing down and build something new from scratch. So, the beginning of construction very often involves destruction of what is already there, especially if it is non-functional.

Obviously, the first thing that would need to be done is to completely close the Apiary function of Ag & Mkts, because they have been proving for decades that they can't do inspection properly. They need to close up shop. This was done in the mid 1990s. The AIAC also needs to be disbanded, it is tainted by decades of cronyism. All of these "non-constructive" things would have to be done before one could begin anything constructive.

Then -- I already suggested that a proper Apiary inspection program would have to be designed and implemented by the Cornell cooperative extension, and it would have to be funded by NYS, not Cornell. Furthermore, it would have to be independent from Ag & Mkts, and the interests of commercial beekeepers. But that isn't likely to happen because there are too many special interests trying to steer it to their own benefit. 

The people involved don't have a real concept of what a proper apiary service would look like. It should be diagnostic, educational, something to be proud of. It should not be a legal, punitive system, nor a tool for channeling subsidies to beekeepers who have proven their dependence on subsidies. 

Subsidized beekeeping is a dead end; the finances of beekeeping should be market based. If there isn't enough demand for honey or pollination, then there are too many beekeepers and some quit. The world does not owe beekeepers a living. If all this seems negative, non-constructive, or what have you, I'm sorry. If you want to know how to make do with what you have, I haven't a clue.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

there are many areas that I disagree with peter about but agree 100% with his post 162. with so many new beekeepers extension should be the priority. now a base eshpa membership is 30 dollars. add 65 dollars for the conference and 70dollars for each person for 3 meals plus 130 dollars for a room. that's kind of out of hand. In sc a membership is 10 dollars. nc is 15 dollars. I have been to 2 of their joint meeting which have more national known speakers for a whole lot less money. the sc/nc meeting has 2-3 times attendance which are mostly small beekeepers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> I am sorry, but it does matter what you look at, and how you look at it. What you see depends entirely where and how you look. That is the problem with bias, you look where you want for what you want, and miss everything else.


And you and Aaron and Pat always seem to look at and see the negative and make things awful for others. These last two years have been quite pleasant, at least in part to your absence. Last years eshpa Fall mtng was good, this years Summer Picnic the best in my memory, best attended in my memory, and the Fall Mtng just now finished today was attended by 185 people, not one negative comment and a lot of praise for the welcoming atmosphere and pleasant conversations. There were almost no hall conversations during talks and the attendance of women was noticeably up.

I think it's too bad that you can't let yourself enjoy things more. I imagine you know who Jonathan Lundgren is. He gave two really well delivered and interesting talks. Diana Cox-Foster, Shane Gabauer, David Miksa, David Hackenberg, and Paul Cappy.

We had a fun Banquet and Auctions. Good food and it was packed. Diana gave a talk about ancient beekeeping in Syria and Turkey.

We had 8 students from SUNY Adirondack's Apiary Club. All sorts of vendors and displays. Those not there missed something.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> Aaron, Pat and I were run out of ESHPA. That's why I feel the way I do.


I guess it depends on how you see things. I'm sure you can justify that point of view. Run out or chose not to come back because your ways make you uncomfortable to be around. Pat often tells me, or has, how she is treated and what's funny is that I hear the same stories from others about how she treats others. People just don't seem to be able to get along, for some reason.

Maybe you would disagree, but I feel like I stand in the middle and get along with and welcome all of y'all. Though maybe you don't feel so now, in this conversation.

I always have appreciated your candor and straightforward manner of expressing yourself, even if it is mostly negative. Which gets tiresome after a time.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Thanks for the response. From your post:
1. completely close the Apiary function of Ag & Mkts
2. AIAC needs to be disbanded
3. Apiary inspection program designed and implemented by the Cornell cooperative extension, funded by NYS
4. Apiary inspection program independent from Ag & Mkts
5. Apiary inspection program independent from interests of commercial beekeepers
6. State Apiary Program should be diagnostic, educational
7. State Apiary Program should not be a legal, punitive system, nor a tool for channeling subsidies to beekeepers

How realistic, in whole or in part, is this? I don't think very realistic, verging on not realistic.
It may well be easier to affect change from within as this route seems less daunting.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> there are many areas that I disagree with peter about but agree 100% with his post 162. with so many new beekeepers extension should be the priority. now a base eshpa membership is 30 dollars. add 65 dollars for the conference and 70dollars for each person for 3 meals plus 130 dollars for a room. that's kind of out of hand. In sc a membership is 10 dollars. nc is 15 dollars. I have been to 2 of their joint meeting which have more national known speakers for a whole lot less money. the sc/nc meeting has 2-3 times attendance which are mostly small beekeepers.


Find us a place that would fit our needs and maybe we could do something similar. Come with a friend or two couples and share the room and it won't cost very much individually. During happy hour there are free drinks from the bar and plenty of cheese, chips, vegees, and dips for free for those staying in rooms. $70.00 for three meals. Breakfast is free. Where is the $70.00 for three meals from?

Maybe you should be active in eshpa and help get the price down. The place we suffered with for a number of years just wasn't cutting it. You should have been to the Banquet that last year. I don't know what those folks were thinking.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> I think it's too bad that you can't let yourself enjoy things more.


That's funny! You know nothing about what I have been doing!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

That's true. I know what you haven't been doing though. Maybe enjoying yourself elsewhere?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the registration form says Friday lunch $20.00. banquet $30.00. sat lunch $20.00. seems like $70.00. of course the meals are optional. you should go to the nc/sc meeting feb 20th. you would probably be impressed as much as I was.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> Michael, no one, the two times I interjected comments, told me to be quiet, did they? I am not only friends with most of the committee members, I am friendly with them.
> 
> Give me something positive to take away.


Yes true, I was amazed that they also took a comment from the reporter that was there and another person who had only attended one other meeting. Gave me some positive hope that in 10 or 12 years they may take a comment from meopcorn:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> Thanks for the response. From your post:
> 1. completely close the Apiary function of Ag & Mkts
> 2. AIAC needs to be disbanded
> 3. Apiary inspection program designed and implemented by the Cornell cooperative extension, funded by NYS
> ...


I'll comment on the above from the older bee keepers I know they agree with #1, #2, might agree with #3 and #4 but I don't think many want or trust any one in their yards,
#5 would be true if the inspections were done by other than a govt. agency any way, #6 they would agree with if they actually wanted inspections, #7 to get people to register you will need some kind of incentive, NY prefers the negative reinforcement, maybe they should try positive reinforcement like some other states are doing.

as to peter, aaron, and pat being thrown out, from the information that I have heard, and not from any of the people involved, I would have to agree that this is true.

as to the ESPHA social events, I don't go, but many of the new beeks have attended the last few since Mark took over, so I would say they are improving, and it's the new beeks that you should hope are interested. I can't remember all the other discussions, so won't comment.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> the registration form says Friday lunch $20.00. banquet $30.00. sat lunch $20.00. seems like $70.00. of course the meals are optional. you should go to the nc/sc meeting feb 20th. you would probably be impressed as much as I was.


I've tried. Never seem to coincide with my travels. I'd rather drive a shorter distance to go to a bee meeting. You must spend more to attend a NC/SC Meeting than an eshpa mtng, unless you camp maybe.

I see what you meant. But you do get the Friday evening perks and the Saturday morning breakfast provided as part of the room rate. I don't know what value you'd put on that. If you've ever tried finding "the right" place and "the right" speakers you know how hard it is. Don't ever expect to p[lease everybody.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



wildbranch2007 said:


> Yes true, I was amazed that they also took a comment from the reporter that was there and another person who had only attended one other meeting. Gave me some positive hope that in 10 or 12 years they may take a comment from meopcorn:


I'll bet you a Panera sandwich that had you raised your hand you would have been called on. Though you might have been reminded to wait until the end of the meeting too. That would not surprise me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> NY prefers the negative reinforcement, maybe they should try positive reinforcement like some other states are doing.
> 
> as to peter, aaron, and pat being thrown out, from the information that I have heard, and not from any of the people involved, I would have to agree that this is true.


What do other States do?

If you heard what you heard from folks who heard what they heard from Peter, Aaron, and Pat, or their associates, then, I don't know what. Ever hear of the game "Telephone"? 

Who told them not to come? Welcoming people become less welcoming when people become unwelcomeable. Pat Bono was at the meeting with her Bee Wellness display. The Bee Wellness Logo was printed in the Program as she requested. Her booth and her Ad cost her nothing, being a nonprofit organization. I saw her to say hello. I saw her and spoke to her as much as I saw and spoke to any of the other vendors. I was busy keeping the speakers going on time. I'm just one person.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



sqkcrk said:


> Maybe you would disagree, but I feel like I stand in the middle and get along with and welcome all of y'all. Though maybe you don't feel so now, in this conversation.


I can attest to this. Mark and I have had some "run-ins" in the past and have very different views on some things, but he has always remained civil, respectful, and not one to hold a grudge. Good job, Mark.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*

 Aww, shucks, Barry.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



> Is it possible there exists people so jaded they can not offer anything constructive?
> 
> I always have appreciated your candor and straightforward manner of expressing yourself, even if it is mostly negative. Which gets tiresome after a time.
> 
> I think it's too bad that you can't let yourself enjoy things more.


Hi all

I thought we were discussing Apiary inspection in NYS. These sorts of personal comments do not further the conversation one jot. That's it for me, if anyone wants to discuss issues, you know how to reach me.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> Hi all
> 
> I thought we were discussing Apiary inspection in NYS. These sorts of personal comments do not further the conversation one jot. That's it for me, if anyone wants to discuss issues, you know how to reach me.


My comment "Is it possible there exists people so jaded they can not offer anything constructive?" is a question based on your very
own comments in this thread over the last day or so. Go back and re read them.
Take care.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> What do other States do?


here you go we will call this wilbranche's alternate registration plan for NY. gives the state everything they are going to ask for eventually any way, and give the beek a tid bit thrown in for all the beeks that don't know or have insurance. let the spears be thrown. I intend to bring this to my next bee meeting and see what every one thinks, or modify.

§xx-xx-x. Registration of bees; identification of apiaries; limitation on liability.
(a) All persons keeping bees in this state shall apply for a certificate of registration for bee keeping from the commissioner, within ten days of the date that bees are acquired, by notifying the commissioner, in writing, of the number and location of colonies they own or rent, or which they keep for someone else, whether the bees are located on their own property or someone else's property. All apiary certificates of registration expire on July 1 of each year and must be renewed annually.
(b) All persons owning or operating an apiary which is not located on their own property must post the name and address of the owner or operator in a conspicuous place in the apiary.
(c) A person who:
(1) Owns and operates an apiary;
(2) Is registered with the Commissioner; and
(3) Operates the apiary in a reasonable manner and in conformance with the New York Department of Agriculture's written best management practices provided by rule, is not liable for any personal injury or property damage that occurs in connection with the keeping and maintaining of bees, bee equipment, queen breeding equipment, apiaries and appliances. The limitation of liability established by this section does not apply to intentional tortious conduct or acts or omissions constituting gross negligence.
The limitation on liability in this subsection shall not take effect until legislative rules promulgated by the Commissioner of Agriculture are authorized by the Legislature. However, the Commissioner of Agriculture shall have the authority to promulgate emergency rules under this subsection.
(d) In order to effectuate the purposes of subsection (c), the commissioner shall propose for promulgation, legislative rules in accordance with article X, chapter 2bdetermined of this code: Provided, That the initial promulgation may be by emergency rule. The rule shall include best management standards for the operation of apiaries. The limitation on liability contained in subsection (c) shall not take effect until legislative rules are promulgated in accordance with article x, chapter 2bdetermined .


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Will you explain the limitation on liability section in more detail as well as the written best management practices.
Of interest to me is the reasoning behind their creation and their implementation.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

now lets see how wildbranch's law fit's. the commish and cappy want the law to come from the bottom up. I can assure you that I am the bottom of the barrel.
The commercial beeks don't want to put up signs, but one hive with their name etc in large letters on the side would suffice, and they already said they are already registered any way.

The back yard beeks would get protection from frivolous law suits, and for the beeks that do have insurance, with the new law, the rates should go down once the insurance co's have been informed.

most of the sideliners I know were already registered with the last law, but I would expect push back from this group. :lpf:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> Will you explain the limitation on liability section in more detail as well as the written best management practices.
> Of interest to me is the reasoning behind their creation and their implementation.


I copied the west virginia law so I will post what the person that pointed me to it said. I also tried to find the florida law as they have the same provision but couldn't find it.



Phoebee said:


> In West Virginia where we keep our hives, registration is free. The main advantage for a beekeeper is that you get significant legal backing in case somebody complains about your bees ... the state is on your side providing you follow a remarkably short list of good bee stewardship rules, which include registration, water available, fences when needed, a sign letting folks know they are near bees, and some attempt at swarm control. You will also be notified of spraying.
> 
> You can request an inspection. The inspectors have a reputation for being helpful and offering good advice.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing that the commish and the aiac would come up with the best management practices. the reasoning for the best management practices would be to prove your bees were not an attractive nuisance as measured by the management practices.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

The wildbranch best management practices sound like 'good neighbor policies' for urban and suburban beekeepers.
Don't local codes already cover this?
Am I correct?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

peterloringborst said:


> Then -- I already suggested that a proper Apiary inspection program would have to be designed and implemented by the Cornell cooperative extension, and it would have to be funded by NYS, not Cornell. Furthermore, it would have to be independent from Ag & Mkts, and the interests of commercial beekeepers. But that isn't likely to happen because there are too many special interests trying to steer it to their own benefit.


This conceptually is where I am. Here's the issues, we gave Dyce lab 50K of state money to reboot in the mid 1990's and they gave us nothing. Calderone and VanEnglesdorp set up a worthless "Master Beekeeper" program that costs hundreds of dollars to take. What a load! Then I look at the fact NYS is all about the stick and not about the carrot and think how many other "state" programs are run well or actually serve the public? I can't name one that is not laden with special interest and waste. Does the government ever vote for less control once they have it? Will Rodgers said something to the effect it's a good thing we don't get as much Government as we pay for. So I guess that leaves me in the unfortunate position of having to agree with ACEBIRD and say it's hopeless. Not because it can't be done but because it won't be done!

Here's the shame for it - Beekeeping has seen a huge resurgence over the last decade and a good program that offered inspection and education could be a real public service and popular. I am always the starry eyed idealist and think we can accomplish whatever we set our minds too, this conversation becomes a break in that trend for me.

Mark, you have withstood an absolute onslaught with humility, civility and determination - keep fighting the good fight brother! Mike I hope you stay in the fight as well, maybe something good will come out of the pile!

At least we still have Beesource!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

not sure if it will work but here is a link to the rules, I'm back to not able to copy and past them as it's a pdf?

https://www.google.com/search?sclie...=799&dpr=1&cad=cbv&sei=Q-dRVrXfOMLr-AGGmoLIDQ

you want the one administrative law division.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> The wildbranch best management practices sound like 'good neighbor policies' for urban and suburban beekeepers.
> Don't local codes already cover this?
> Am I correct?


maybe in your area, but local codes do not exempt you from lawsuits. for instance Syracuse codes, not sure of the exact word, but if it's not included, then it's excluded, and bees are not mentioned.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I'm looking at your bmp and liability/lawsuits as two seperate issues, which I consider them to be.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is the PDF _Wildbranch2007_ referenced in post #186 ...

I had to save it to my system and then upload it. I expect that most of you will need to save it to your local system, then open it by clicking on the downloaded file.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: new york AIAC Mtng notes for the meeting on 6/19/2014*



peterloringborst said:


> Hi all
> 
> I thought we were discussing Apiary inspection in NYS. These sorts of personal comments do not further the conversation one jot. That's it for me, if anyone wants to discuss issues, you know how to reach me.


This is what Peter means when he mentioned being "thrown out" of eshpa. When he doesn't like what people are saying he acts this way, you decide what way he is acting, and goes home. He left his Vice President's position in just such a manner. People take things so personally.

I on the other hand am blessed with an imperfect memory, which makes me happier than I would be if I remembered everything and held grudges. Of course, everything I know is wrong anyway. So why anyone listens to what I say is beyond me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> here you go we will call this wilbranche's alternate registration plan for NY. gives the state everything they are going to ask for eventually any way, and give the beek a tid bit thrown in for all the beeks that don't know or have insurance. let the spears be thrown. I intend to bring this to my next bee meeting and see what every one thinks, or modify.
> 
> §xx-xx-x. Registration of bees; identification of apiaries; limitation on liability.
> (a) All persons keeping bees in this state shall apply for a certificate of registration for bee keeping from the commissioner, within ten days of the date that bees are acquired, by notifying the commissioner, in writing, of the number and location of colonies they own or rent, or which they keep for someone else, whether the bees are located on their own property or someone else's property. All apiary certificates of registration expire on July 1 of each year and must be renewed annually.
> ...


Mandatory or required? Upheld by penalty of fine? Or on a voluntary basis? Regulated by Ag&Mkts/Apiary Inspection and the State Apiculturist? Will Apiary Inspection be part of the deal? Unfunded mandate?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joel said:


> Mark, you have withstood an absolute onslaught with humility, civility and determination - keep fighting the good fight brother! Mike I hope you stay in the fight as well, maybe something good will come out of the pile!
> 
> At least we still have Beesource!


Thanks, Joel. I'll stop being me when I am planted in the ground. I missed seeing you at the eshpa mtng this weekend, Joel. 

Aaron Morris thought that everyone, even especially commercial beekeepers involved in eshpa should have taken the Master Beekeeper Course. So I think it must have been good in his mind or that it at least deserved support by participation.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Mandatory or required? Upheld by penalty of fine? Or on a voluntary basis? Regulated by Ag&Mkts/Apiary Inspection and the State Apiculturist? Will Apiary Inspection be part of the deal? Unfunded mandate?


You people tell me, I wrote it(or quietly copied it), what do you think the reaction would be from beekeepers. what was the reaction of the beeks at the ESHPA meeting, I heard there was a very good discussion. break the discussion out based on commercial vs others in there reaction if you can. off the top of my head, I would make the registration of the beek and # of hives required, the registration of the yards voluntary, but you get no protection from liability law unless your yards are registered. I wrote in the law DEPT of Agriculture, the legislature could put any dept they like in there, preferably one not controlled by the Governor, so that people could at least write and complain and have some leverage. Unfunded mandate:v: If it's part of ags and mark. the gov can shell out for it out of the billion dollars he gets every year to spread around to his friends, inspections can be written into the law or left out, or written in and not funded, not that important.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Actually, which you would have learned for yourself had you been there, , beyond the Board of Director's Meeting there was no "Registration" talk. So I don't know where you got the idea that "there was good discussion" on the topic. I don't know if what went on at the Board Mtng would qualify as "good" discussion. Maybe it was. No real blood was spilled.

I have suggested to Cappy and Wilson that "Beekeeper Registry" be what this effort be called. People hear someone say the word "Registration" and their brain says "Inspection". And their visceral reaction is to cringe in fear and derision. Don't make it "mandatory" or "required", explain it as a "Need". Something needed for decision making at the Government level and by those doing Research. Don't say that the information is "Required". Say something like "This information is needed so Cornell Cooperative Extension and Bee Researchers have some idea of the numbers of beekeepers and beehives there are in the State. This information is needed ... (for the reasons it is need for and by those who need it to make sound decisions)." Or something like that.

I have also suggested to Cappy, Wilson, and Emma Mullen that the "Beekeeper Registry" be handled by the Honeybee Extension Associate under Cornell Cooperative Extension. At the inspiration of Peter Borst's comments in this Thread and his e-mails.

This is a process at its beginning. Not ready for implementation whatsoever. This is going to be a long process, if it is done right. It should take a year or more to become ready for general consumption. It may have been a bit early to have been brought up at the AIAC Mtng.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Actually, which you would have learned for yourself had you been there, , beyond the Board of Director's Meeting there was no "Registration" talk. So I don't know where you got the idea that "there was good discussion" on the topic. I don't know if what went on at the Board Mtng would qualify as "good" discussion. Maybe it was. No real blood was spilled.


So I know what goes on inside your board of directors meeting with out being there, you getting worried yet.:ws:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I have also suggested to Cappy, Wilson, and Emma Mullen that the "Beekeeper Registry" be handled by the Honeybee Extension Associate under Cornell Cooperative Extension. At the inspiration of Peter Borst's comments in this Thread and his e-mails.


 no easy answer not required and most wont sign up, and the state will still have to fund it or cornell wont do it. so here we go round and round in circles. you still haven't commented on the wildbranch proposal, or should I submit it to your board of directors for a comment.:thumbsup:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> I'm looking at your bmp and liability/lawsuits as two seperate issues, which I consider them to be.


not sure why? could you elaborate? what would you guess the reaction of the beeks in your club would be to either or any proposal?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> So I know what goes on inside your board of directors meeting with out being there, you getting worried yet.:ws:


Not at all. They are and almost always have been open to the public. Which you would have known too had you been there. hahaha And then, perhaps, your generalization would have been expressed differently. I'm glad that you and Aaron are talking to each other.

And I am also glad that Aaron has not completely given up on attending eshpa Board Meetings, even if he does disdain his fellow Board members.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> no easy answer not required and most wont sign up, and the state will still have to fund it or cornell wont do it. so here we go round and round in circles. you still haven't commented on the wildbranch proposal, or should I submit it to your board of directors for a comment.:thumbsup:


Go ahead. I don't know why you think the eshpa Board has anything to do with this anyway, but go ahead.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Mandatory or required? Upheld by penalty of fine? Or on a voluntary basis? Regulated by Ag&Mkts/Apiary Inspection and the State Apiculturist? Will Apiary Inspection be part of the deal? Unfunded mandate?


This was my reply to the Post you stated I did not reply to.

As far as your proposed Registration Legislation, I got no problem with it. I missed it if it's in their, but, any Inspection included?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> not sure why? could you elaborate? what would you guess the reaction of the beeks in your club would be to either or any proposal?


I see bmp's as a device to limit the chances managed honey bees become a nuisance to the community, and not as a suggested blueprint for healthier bees. Any BMP that may be worthy for adoption by the State for the purpose of healthier bees needs to be listed and explained in detail if everyone state wide is required to follow them. There are BMP's suggested/required by some organizations that are ridiculous, ie CNG apiary requirements, and it's best to avoid BMP's that are questionable from the outset and if adopted become obsolete quickly.. 
I feel local jurisdictions already have codes for allowing or not the keeping of bees within their districts (ie NYC) and they should be the ones
to require their beekeepers follow BMP as they see fit for their community. I do not think there are any BMP's that apply state wide except in the most general sense. If registration, inspection and state supported education are to be considered BMP's then that's a seperate conversation. 
The limiting of liability by following some kind of state devised BMP's may work in a state like WV but I find it diffucult to believe it can be adopted by a state like NY because of the vast differences in population and population densities ( along with the urban population
vs rural population factor).
2013: NY pop 19.6 million, pop density 417/sqmile. WV pop 1.8 million, pop density 77.1/sqmile.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density
The idea of the State limiting beekeeper liability would be incomprehensible to most of this states lawmakers. 
I can only cringe at the loss of liberties we now enjoy as beekeepers if anything even remotely similiar were even contemplated by Albany. Why would the state go on the hook for limiting beekeeper liability? in return for keeper registration, in return yard registration? 
And I have to ask, why is limiting liability by the state included in this draft? is there a problem that needs to be addressed
statewide?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When "The State" wants to know something about what beekeepers in NYS think about something, who do they go to? I agree with those that think "The State" aught to ask more than one group, but they call The Empire State Honey Producers Association. So if you want to be heard in Albany, join ESHPA. ESHPA has the voice and ESHPA has Albany's ear.

Most beekeepers don't care about NYS Beekeeper Politics. Or they would be doing something to make their voices heard.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

In nc/sc there is the state organization with local clubs being under their wing. In ny most clubs consider eshpa to be the enemy. I didn't realize this until I attended some meetings and picnics. look at the turnout at the Geneva annual conference, It equals or surpases the eshpa meeting and that is just one club. think how strong beekeepers could be if they were united. many times I have suggested that a rep from each club be brought into closer working with eshpa. never heard a comment so I assume no one at the state level wants to lose any power. as said eshpa is recognized by Albany as the main voice.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> many times I have suggested that a rep from each club be brought into closer working with eshpa. never heard a comment so I assume no one at the state level wants to lose any power. as said eshpa is recognized by Albany as the main voice.


In NY State things are disorganized in different ways than other States and their Associations. ESHPA is one place where Commercial Beekeepers can gather once or twice a year, rather than monthly or semi-monthly.

We took that idea of club reps and this year had a Local Clubs President's Council. About 8 representatives and Presidents showed up to the lunch time meeting. One even from NYC, I believe. But not either of the NYC Beekeeping or NYC Beekeepers groups. Best not to assume anything you don't know of for certain. Come and find out for yourself next time.

I would love to have a relationship with all of the club Presidents. I would speak as ESHPA wants me to and I would help other's message get through too or try to represent it also. SABA's President, Chris Crupp came to a couple of the Pollinator Protection Task Force Meetings, in part by my urging and encouragment.

If people want to hear from the ESHPA President, the ESHPA President has to know how to get in touch with whom and in what way. This has been the main impediment to communication. That and people not wanting to be communicated with. Which I feel is the general feeling, but I am not sure of that.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> #1. I feel local jurisdictions already have codes for allowing or not the keeping of bees within their districts (ie NYC) and they should be the ones
> to require their beekeepers follow BMP as they see fit for their community. I do not think there are any BMP's that apply state wide except in the most general sense. If registration, inspection and state supported education are to be considered BMP's then that's a seperate conversation.
> 
> #2.The limiting of liability by following some kind of state devised BMP's may work in a state like WV but I find it diffucult to believe it can be adopted by a state like NY because of the vast differences in population and population densities ( along with the urban population
> ...


 I'm skipping post # 202 for now, I think Mark had an extra bowl of cheerios for breakfast.

#1. like you said its a big state, local BMP's wont work in the areas I'm in. For example every yard I have, is located in at least two and some times three different jurisdictions.
My house yard is in Lafayette and Jamesville, which local BMP do I use, so I went and looked on line regarding bees at both locations.
the next two lines are what is listed on bees.
line1
line2
The reason that BMp's are included in the proposed legislation, is it gives the beek something to be in compliance for eliminating the chance of law suits. If you were to go read the posts from people from West Virginia, and Florida, states that have these type of laws, that's the benefit they tout the most, and in W. Virginia's case the law was implemented 4 years ago, so It can be done in modern society.

#2. not sure what the size of the population has to do with coming up with a BMP.

#3 limiting liability. Now lets look at what's trying to be accomplished, ESHPA and Cappy want to put in place required registration of beeks. Now 7-8 years ago we had required registration of beeks and ESHPA fought tooth and nail to get it repealed. Now from the last AIAC meeting the commercial beeks are still already registered and counted. So that leaves back yard and sideliners to get registered. I have no skin in the game, as I was registered in the old law, so am still registered, there are a few new sidelines in recent years and I would suspect that the sideliners that didn't register b/4 with the old law, aren't going to register with the new law.
So that leaves the majority of the people that Cappy and the ESHPA want registered as back yard bees. What incentives do they have to register?? nothing, so give them something. Your next meeting, or via email ask the beeks how many carry liability insurance on there hives? we have around 100 members in our club, and I know that 5 including me have insurance. So since I have insurance, I also have no skin in that part of this future law. So the buy in to get the backyard beeks to register is the limits on liability.
now what is the state giving up, has any one ever heard of a liability claim in NY due to bees?? The insurance co. I use has had one claim in the 20 years I have been using them
and that's in all the states they insure in.

but if you don't like your fellow beek getting some protection, come up with some other carrot that can be substituted in the new bill. 



> The idea of the State limiting beekeeper liability would be incomprehensible to most of this states lawmakers.


so true, that's why if this thread was in tailgater, I would refer to the many democratic freedoms that you don't have in a socialistic state, but then my post would get sanctioned.
the state I came from was able to pass a castle law that made it impossible for the homeowner to be sued, I would think NY could at least do it for a little insect.

as to the voting on the two versions of the law I think it's cappy plan 1 for clyderoad, 1 against wildbranch, 1 against anything acebird, and beeware10 is the deciding vote
now the wildbranch plan 1 for me, 1 against clyderoad, acebird again and beewar10 is still keeping us thinking,
and Mark is wondering why he ever got involved.:lookout:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Most beekeepers don't care about NYS Beekeeper Politics. Or they would be doing something to make their voices heard.


so since the Ag's and Markets works for the Governor and not the legislator, how would you recommend that beeks make their voices heard?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mark your right I don't know what has been tried behind the scenes. I just know what works in other states and is not working in ny. If you want to be successful you follow the example of other successful programs. Its always been this way but beekeeping has changed with the growth of all these new clubs in the last 30ys. eshpa simply has not kept up with the changes. the good old boys don't want to change. like they say your between a rock and hard spot.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> so since the Ag's and Markets works for the Governor and not the legislator, how would you recommend that beeks make their voices heard?


Well, get to know someone on the AIAC and get them to promote your ideas. If they are worth promoting.
Give me your recommendations and I'll pass them on too.
Write a letter about your ideas and concerns and give a copy to each of the AIAC Members.
Join ESHPA and get to know ESHPA's Liaison to the AIAC and get him to submit your thoughts and ideas.

Keep on doing what you are doing. I'm sure you have more ideas than I and better.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> eshpa simply has not kept up with the changes. the good old boys don't want to change. like they say your between a rock and hard spot.


Behind the scenes? Not sure what you mean, since all of ESHPA's meetings are open. All of ESHPA's meetings are advertised in the ESHPA Newsletter, on the website, on Facebook, and on beesource. All the Minutes of all official Meetings are available in the two annual Newletters and the ESHPA Website, eshpa.org.

May some people assume there are underhanded deals made in dark smoky rooms?

What are the changes the ESHPA hasn't kept up with? I'd like to know. Seriously.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mark eshpa does not have a relation with clubs is what I mean. as far as behind the scene I did not know you had contacted some clubs. there simply is not a good working relation between eshpa and clubs. as I said before they consider eshpa the enemy. think what a difference it would make if most club members were to belong to eshpa. I believe many do not belong to both.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Has eshpa ever had a relation with the local clubs? Never anything official that I know of. Certainly some by the involvement in eshpa by local club members, at the Board level and in other ways.

There has been an explosion in the number of local clubs in the past 5 or 10 years. What do you think eshpa should do? It isn't like eshpa can join all of them. I doubt they have Club Memberships. Which is something we are discussing offering to local clubs. ESHPA does send Newsletters to each and every club it has an address for. ESHPA sent flyers to each club. Did your President pass them out at your last meeting?

How does eshpa act like the enemy? Not that you said it did, only that the local clubs see eshpa as "the enemy". Is it a jealousy thing? Do local clubs think that eshpa should do something for them out of the kindness of eshpa's heart? ESHPA did initially and recently support NY Bee Wellness monetarily and as a support to the application for funds from the USDA. That is something that eshpa did for NY beekeepers and clubs.

I don't know what eshpa could do to make things better, make people think about eshpa. If people don't like the way eshpa is then join it and change it. But I will tell you, that didn't work out all that well before. And it has been working out well recently. Especially in regards to membership numbers. 185-2015, 140-2014, 110-2013 Something like that. I'll Post the real numbers once I get them from our Treasurer again. About 21% growth in 2014. And about 24% this year. If I did my math correctly.

And there has never been as much participation by so many, Board members and non.

Should have been there to experience it yourself.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

there should be an incentive for the clubs to join eshpa not the other way around. eshpa is the main organization with ties to Albany. for someone joining a club give them a eshpa membership thru their club at a discounted rate. they are already paying club dues. a lot of $ 15.00 add up. I was president long ago. details could be worked out with a increase in membership and network with clubs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'll pass it onto the rest of the Board and see what they think. Do you think that would be enough to get people over the "enemy" belief?

Why didn't you establish the tradition when you were President?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

we did not have the explosion of clubs back then. just working with clubs will help eshpa's image. as I said ya have to give them something and start working closer together. there may be better ways but just something to think about. maybe looking at other states with clubs would provide more ideas.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

We did reach out and have taken first steps. I don't expect things to change quickly or for everyone.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

eshpa as already stated, has ties in Albany. The individual clubs do not, and they need to. This should be accomplished through eshpa.
the reality is that few if any of the members of these clubs, and many times the club officials themselves, are unaware of those very things we
discuss here regularly. Pollinator Protection Task Force, AIAC, and all the discussions that have taken place in committee that can have an impact on them as beekeepers are unknown to most club members I have spoken to. Some may have read a blurb in the newspaper but don't associate these points of discussion with there reality, which has to do with who speaks at their meeting, honey judging contests, where to get the best queens and who they may be able to call on when their hives go down hill and where to place their hive(s) in the yard. Many have no concept of the big picture in our state. Urbanites can't fathom the issues from a rural perspective, and vice versa- in fact when it's said that people have lost touch with the who, where and how of their food production it also applies to the world of bees, pollination and honey. 
Associating the points discussed by eshpa, PPTF, AIAC to their reality is what ESHPA needs to do, and is uniquely positioned to do for all the states clubs. The clubs also need this so as not to be blindsided by decisions that may impact them.
Granted some clubs won't care, but clear notification by ESHPA of what is being discussed in Albany, which is happening with or without their input, sends a message that NYS beekeeping is not stagnant and and their inclusion as clubs in the states beekeeping affairs is desired.
Does ESHPA have a club membership category? Get the club proper in a special member category that differs from the individual membership category and devise a list of benefits the club would receive for being a club member, and then depend on them for their clubs input on current topics.

Mention the current topics being batted about and talk of a comprehensive yearly beekeeper registration, yard registration, and inspection program and ears will perk up. Mention the discussion involving funding Ag Extension or BeeWellness for beekeeper education classes statewide and ears will perk up.
MyThreeCentsWorth.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"Does ESHPA have a club membership category?" Not officially. But when the SUNY Adirondack Apiary Club reached out to us asking if there was a way they could come without paying full price, being college students interested in bees and all, we came up with a Student Discount for this past weekend's meeting.

We haven't formalized the Registration and Membership Fees for Students going forward yet. That is on our February Board Meeting Agenda to discuss and determine before making into Policy form.

All reasonable suggestions welcome.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving, y'all.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> 70dollars for each person for 3 meals


What if we didn't provide lunch at $20.00 each and handed people a list of restaurants in the area and extended the lunch period to an hour and a half to accommodate the travel time? There is a restaurant in the Hotel and two other restaurants 1/4 mile away.

Those $20.00 lunches cost eshpa $24.00 each. And in order to have lunch available on site as an option for attendees eshpa has to pay for a certain number and hope to recoup the expense. Which we didn't at all. Which, just now finding out, makes me feel really bad. What was lost as an expense we didn't break even on could have fed a lot of people their Thanksgiving Dinner.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> eshpa as already stated, has ties in Albany. The individual clubs do not, and they need to. This should be accomplished through eshpa.
> the reality is that few if any of the members of these clubs, and many times the club officials themselves, are unaware of those very things we
> discuss here regularly. Pollinator Protection Task Force, AIAC, and all the discussions that have taken place in committee that can have an impact on them as beekeepers are unknown to most club members I have spoken to. Some may have read a blurb in the newspaper but don't associate these points of discussion with there reality, which has to do with who speaks at their meeting, honey judging contests, where to get the best queens and who they may be able to call on when their hives go down hill and where to place their hive(s) in the yard. Many have no concept of the big picture in our state. Urbanites can't fathom the issues from a rural perspective, and vice versa- in fact when it's said that people have lost touch with the who, where and how of their food production it also applies to the world of bees, pollination and honey.
> Associating the points discussed by eshpa, PPTF, AIAC to their reality is what ESHPA needs to do, and is uniquely positioned to do for all the states clubs. The clubs also need this so as not to be blindsided by decisions that may impact them.
> ...


Actually reading the last few post over and over, the proper way to get this all straightened out is for the other clubs, to get members and the public to partition the legislature to modify the law that created that AIAC , leave all the current non beeks positions alone, the new beek positions would be one person per bee club, elected by the bee club, and one position for ESHPA. This would let ESHPA off the hook as forcing things down the bee keepers throats as they would only have one vote, the clubs that attend the meeting would have influence about the goings on, all clubs would have the same information to pass on to their members. I plan to propose this at our next bee meeting in a few weeks, now if I could get acebird interested, he could do the same at the mid york. If the people are interest at the meeting, I will find a way to pass the information along to other clubs to do with as they may. Now just have to remember, someone told me that they have access to their local rep. to get some one to sponsor the change.

and you guys didn't think I was paying attention.:doh:


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

wildbranch bad idea. the clubs need to have input but to over power eshpa will never happen. eshpa has always been the go to from Albany and that should not change, with your change it does not stand a chance and shouldn't. eshpa should be the main club as it has been and other clubs network off it. they just need to work with eshpa and have a rep from each club.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

beeware10 said:


> wildbranch bad idea. the clubs need to have input but to over power eshpa will never happen. eshpa has always been the go to from Albany and that should not change, with your change it does not stand a chance and shouldn't. eshpa should be the main club as it has been and other clubs network off it. they just need to work with eshpa and have a rep from each club.


I agree.


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

beeware10 said:


> wildbranch bad idea. the clubs need to have input but to over power eshpa will never happen. eshpa has always been the go to from Albany and that should not change, with your change it does not stand a chance and shouldn't. eshpa should be the main club as it has been and other clubs network off it. they just need to work with eshpa and have a rep from each club.


I agree with Beeware. Plus you would have too much diverse input from the clubs and the AIAC would not get anything done -ever . the clubs should branch from and network with eshpa. AIAC needs to be small in order to actually take care of its mission.
Also, policies that are good for the hobbiest beek with a few hives may not apply well to a commercial operator and vice versa.:lookout:

Life is too short to spend a lot the time on politics . We like to spend it beekeeping because that's what we enjoy. I do not want govt looking over my shoulder all the time and butting in with rules that don't make a lot of sense. 

Furthermore, if ag&mkts wants registration so that they have beekeeper numbers so that Cornell can get research $, that's fine if Cornell is actually going to research something that is actually useful beekeepers. We have seen toooo many wasted research $ pilfered away on pet/meaningless projects at Cornell over the last 20 years that really did nothing to improve honeybee health or productivity. 
Off my soapbox and back to winterizing hives.Have a wonderful Thanksgiving everyone!
Nick
gridleyhollow.com


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

good points all funwithbees.
I feel that's why a suggestion that Cornell should be responsible for registration, independent inspections, education with the program
supported by NYS funding should never see the light of day. 
Cornell in my opinion has not proven their worth to NYS beekeepers in a long, long time.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

we lost everything at cornell when roger retired and caldone just put his time in for retirement.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> Actually reading the last few post over and over, the proper way to get this all straightened out is for the other clubs, to get members and the public to partition the legislature to modify the law that created that AIAC ,


No law created the AIAC. :doh: So "partition the legislature" all you wish. Though I don't know what dividing the legislature up into parts is going to accomplish.


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