# Packaged absconded from hives! Would like some advice from experienced beekeepers



## RyanD (May 7, 2015)

I installed two packages of bees late last Friday night and the next Tuesday afternoon both of the hives absconded within an hour of each other while I was at work. (Neighbor let me know)
I have the langstroth deep boxes with screened bottom boards 10" apart on a half pallet facing opposite directions and painted the front of one of them. (I was told it would help the bees know which hive is theirs.) I had an entrance feeder on both of them and had them in a spot where they're getting full sun for at least 8 hours. 
I went into the hives very briefly the Sunday afternoon before they left to check on the queens and to put a small hole in the candy plug to encourage the workers to get her out. Both queens had left with the hives the Tuesday they absconded. 
This being my first year beekeeping im not sure what I did wrong. I would appreciate some advice so hopefully this never happens to me again. Thank you for any input.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

it was most likely the screened bottom boards, ALOT of reports of absconding this yr and the common factor is the screened bottom board not being closed off.


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

if you can. install packages with one frame of young brood if not close them in with screen and a feeder in a cool place for a couple of days once they start drawing comb they are not likely to leave


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

Sounds like we have the same setup/environment, and I also had one of my two packages abscond (I was lucky to find them though).

Everyone is right about the SBB being uncovered...they don't like that! Whether it lets in too much light, or too much air too early in their hive development, I don't know. I left the cover in on my second package and they seem to have taken to the hive a lot better.

In the end, you have to remember, these are wild, undomesticated animals who can do anything at any time. Old timers with 20 year experience can have a hive of bees leave, although not as likely.


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## RyanD (May 7, 2015)

Initially I did try to seal them in I put a reducer in the bottom and made a grass plug to put in the opening. Which they promptly removed themselves. When you say screen do you mean insect screening?


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

Screen = screen bottom board....not sure what you're referring to, but I'm talking about the bottom board that has a screen in the middle instead of being a solid piece of wood. this screen is used to fight mites as well as add ventilation. 

If you had a good clump of grass pushed in firmly, they didn't remove it. The wind or some other animal brushed by it, but they don't have the capacity to move an obstruction like that. Also, you don't want to shut them in when you hive them. They've been taken from their home hive, put in a box, shipped across the country, then dumped in a strange setup....they need to get out and take their cleansing flights, get oriented to their new area, and just take a look at the neighborhood.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is what they are talking about ...



RyanD said:


> I have the langstroth deep boxes with screened bottom boards ...


Those screens should be closed off until _at least_ after the bees have brood in the comb. If you don't have a better alternative, cut up some free/scrap plastic 'political' type signs and slide them through the hive entrance on top of the screen.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

1. Would someone explain to me why anyone would use a SBB?

2. Would some explain to me the benefits of using one for the first 2 or 3 months after a package install?


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

phyber said:


> If you had a good clump of grass pushed in firmly, they didn't remove it. The wind or some other animal brushed by it, but they don't have the capacity to move an obstruction like that.


Sure they can. When I was a kid we had a commercial beekeeper bring hives to our cherry orchard. The entrances were all firmly plugged with grass. I remember asking my dad how the bees could get out. He said that he was told they could get out by themselves. By the first afternoon they had an opening made and within a day it was mostly clear.


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

Honey-4-All said:


> 1. Would someone explain to me why anyone would use a SBB?
> 
> 2. Would some explain to me the benefits of using one for the first 2 or 3 months after a package install?


1. the screen allows mites to fall from the bees onto an insert that the beek can evaluate to see mite numbers, and treat accordingly. It also is a screen, allowing a chimney effect so air can come up/in/out of the hive aiding in keeping the hive less damp. Cold doesn't kill bees, dampness does. This is of course relative, as a package of bees is the most fragile/flighty state of a bunch of bees.

2. see number one.


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## RyanD (May 7, 2015)

Well, next time around if I go with packages again I will make sure to close up the screens with plastic or something. And hopefully my chances of them stickin around will be much greater. Thank you for the advice guys. I appreciate it!


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

phyber said:


> ...allowing a chimney effect so air can come up/in/out of the hive aiding in keeping the hive less damp...


They need ventilation, but the entire bottom being open is a lot more than they need. It can be managed without a SBB.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

phyber said:


> Old timers with 20 year experience can have a hive of bees leave, although not as likely.


Even old timers with 35 years experience - I just got lucky and found mine, huddled into a pile of lumber. A first for me with packages. I hive them on 4-6 combs of drawn, in a single medium, solid bottom board. Now I can only say "They _almost _always stay put" 

'Sorry to hear of your misfortune. Good luck moving forward!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

phyber said:


> 1. the screen allows mites to fall from the bees onto an insert that the beek can evaluate to see mite numbers, and treat accordingly. It also is a screen, allowing a chimney effect so air can come up/in/out of the hive aiding in keeping the hive less damp. Cold doesn't kill bees, dampness does. This is of course relative, as a package of bees is the most fragile/flighty state of a bunch of bees.
> 
> 2. see number one.


What kind of scientifically useful statistics is gleaned form this form of mite count? Does it provide any data that can be translated into economic threshold treatment levels?


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

Honey-4-All said:


> What kind of scientifically useful statistics is gleaned form this form of mite count? Does it provide any data that can be translated into economic threshold treatment levels?


The insert has a grid sized per square inch. By leaving it in the hive for 24 hours, you can gather a mite count per square...if it reaches a set limit, you treat.

Economically, you don't treat. Like farmers say, "i'm not going to spend a dollar on something unless it gets me a dollar and a half back". If you want to prevent your hives from succumbing to mites, you treat. If you have enough hives to take a loss of a few, don't worry about it. 

treatment is a personal decision, similar to what's going on with children's immunization shots. Some believe in it, some don't. Personally, I feel that even in 2015 with all the technology and smart brains in the world, a virus can still kill a person. I will treat.


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

You can do a grid board mite count without a screened bottom board.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

phyber said:


> The insert has a grid sized per square inch. By leaving it in the hive for 24 hours, you can gather a mite count per square...if it reaches a set limit, you treat.


Well certainly it gives you data and to a degree comparative data between hives but the Devils in the details. The tricky part is interpreting mite drop based on a whole range of factors from the time of year to the size of the hive to how much open brood is in the hive to how active the bees are. Anything that makes bees more active is going to result in a greater mite drop.


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

Agis Apiaries said:


> You can do a grid board mite count without a screened bottom board.


But the mites have the opportunity to crawl back on the bees before you pull the sheet out, thus skewing the numbers....

I know the SBB vs Regular is BeeSource's "Ford vs. Chevy" debate, and I won't get heated into it. I can respect the opinions of others, but I prefer the logic of SBB. Say that I decide against it in the future....all I need to do is get the insert and stick it back in. Deciding to go from regular to SBB and not purchase anything is a bit trickier...


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

phyber said:


> But the mites have the opportunity to crawl back on the bees before you pull the sheet out, thus skewing the numbers....


The mite count boards are sticky. The mites get stuck and can't crawl back. A screened bottom board does not affect that at all. Your comment doesn't make sense.

Have you done mite counts this way a lot since you started your "2 hives est. 2015"?


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

RyanD said:


> Initially I did try to seal them in I put a reducer in the bottom and made a grass plug to put in the opening. Which they promptly removed themselves. When you say screen do you mean insect screening?



yes insect screen they need lots of ventilation when you screen them in. I would even screen the top of the hive and leave the lid propped up if it's warm. keep them in a cool dark place feed them and they should start drawing comb and the queen might start laying. once she starts laying they should stay put. should only take a few days.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Screen vs solid BB? Why not use both simultaneously? I do. It's really not that complicated. The S(creen)BB allows for constant (72 hours _every week of the year [/I) mite counts which are the only useful ones. The solid board below the S(c)BB is the true bottom of my hive. The idea that SBB help control mites is just plain silly - even if all the mites that drpped in a full year dropped in one week it wouldn't put much of a dent in the mite population dynamics. But the mite drop does allow me to passively watch what's going on and know when to step up and to do extra rolls, which are the mainstays of my treat now/delay treating decision-making process. Plus you can find all sorts of other intreresting data about your hive by picking through their trash.

Despite my enthusiasm for S(c)BBs I would never consider them adequate, all by themselves, as the floor of my hive-stacks. It astounds me that some people in the north do use them year-round - and apparently successfully.

Still, for the OP, losing two new packages has got to be a huge disappointment and frustration - and a considerable financial loss, as well. Perhaps there is bee-club nearby and you could get on their list for some swarm or cut-out bees. Or perhaps someone will have a nuc to spare to get you started this year. I wish you much better luck with your next rounds of bees. (But I'd close up the screen board before you hive them, just in case!)

Enjambres_


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

Agis Apiaries said:


> The mite count boards are sticky. The mites get stuck and can't crawl back. A screened bottom board does not affect that at all. Your comment doesn't make sense.
> 
> Have you done mite counts this way a lot since you started your "2 hives est. 2015"?


No but I will. Have you been nice to anyone lately?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

jim lyon said:


> Well certainly it gives you data and to a degree comparative data between hives but the Devils in the details. T*he tricky part is interpreting mite drop based on a whole range of factors from the time of year to the size of the hive to how much open brood is in the hive to how active the bees are*. Anything that makes bees more active is going to result in a greater mite drop.


My point exactly....... The data from the sticky board alone is so irrelevant it is worthless!!!!!!!! If people think counting mites on a sticky board will give you the info you need you are sadly misled. Highly!!!!!!!!!


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

phyber said:


> No but I will. Have you been nice to anyone lately?


Not a question of being nice. I won't post advice for someone on a subject for which I don't have personal experience. There are many aspects of beekeeping that I don't do or haven't done, and I won't offer suggestions on those areas.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

what was in the hive? drawn comb,fdn?


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## Pinchecharlie (May 14, 2014)

Besides the advice on mite counts , Iam sorry that happened to you on your first go. It s frustrating at best and just plain disappointing to see failures with your bees. I can say that it happened to me too last year with a package and without SBB . So I Allways assume that a unseen or learned variable was at play. And short of having ten or more established hives there are, to me ,many manipulations ,and or things to try/remedy , that you simply can't do when you are first starting ( unless you buy hives), so my advice bieng just like you a year later is to buy nucs from a reputable beekeeper or friend. Inspect the nucs before you load them in your truck and put all your research to use , paying attention to the brood pattern and overall health of the nuc. The reason I say this is I bought a nuc sight un seen that needed a queen day one and I then had to buy a queen . I also bought a nuc that was so weak it had to be combined later. So inspect and say no if you have to. The costs are more but it is as cheap insurance as you can get with bees (and there are still no garuntees) I would also insist on the nuc box bieng part of the purchase unless it is a buddy deal. the next thing I would do is buy at least four nucs and if you can six. I had three and after one flew away and one was combined I now have, after three nucs and a package, one hive that's more than likely going to swarm ! Lol! I say this because you need all the hive resources to make any changes that you can read about here or in a book. I can't tell you how many times I've heard to add some drawn comb or a frame of honey or move to strong or weak hive ! We'll guess what you can't without the hives! Ask the people who sell you the nucs to sell you drawn comb as well. Mine did and they sold me whatever else I was missing as well. And they even gave me a queen when I stressed out about it. That relationship will be invaluable eventually . I figure this year I will get a quart jar of honey from my bees and that makes it about ,hmm...1000 dollars a jar! Lol! It will workout for you though with better planning than I used! Just my two cents! Good luck and remember you can Allways hive swarms in your area for free!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

phyber said:


> Have you been nice to anyone lately?


Piece of advice from ol huff and gruff.......... Get over the touchy feely as you go through the withdrawal of realizing that the koolaid you drank about SBB and sticky boards was just "old school" advice that has been deemed to be just about worthless. Just because someone says something is true does not make it true. Experience is the best teacher. There are way better ways to determine mite levels that matter...


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

next time: get rid of the screened bottom board. put a couple of drops, not gallons of lemon grass oil on the top of each frame if they are new. if you can find a couple of drawn frames from a known source it helps, put them in the middle of the box. add a mason jar of light syrup to the top with inside access only. do not add a bunch of rubbish to the syrup. it helps if you mist one side of the package with light syrup a 1/2 hour or so before instaling. these things help to increase your chance of sucess. most important let the bees release the queen...bees do not leave the queen behind unless there is a severe problem, once comb building starts they are reluctant to leave.


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## RyanD (May 7, 2015)

In the hives I had taken a foundation out of a frame and put in some drawn comb from my brother-in-law's top bar hive to hopefully help keep them in. One hive built quite a bit of comb in addition to the drawn. The other did not begin to draw any comb.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

RyanD said:


> I have the langstroth deep boxes with screened bottom boards 10"
> This being my first year beekeeping im not sure what I did wrong. I would appreciate some advice so hopefully this never happens to me again. Thank you for any input.


A few years ago advice to use ScrBB was being passed along by University Ag Depts. and other lofty places, so the decision to use them was made by many people. I guess you could say they are currently undergoing extensive field trials. As you can see, some hate them, some love them. I have one in my barn I am going to covert into a migratory top or a temporary cover for caught swarms. 
It must be disappointing to have lost your packages, but you are not alone. Don't give up. You have encountered a setback in what can prove to be a very rewarding endeavor. 

Alex


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## RyanD (May 7, 2015)

beeware10 said:


> what was in the hive? drawn comb,fdn?


In the hives I had taken a foundation out of a frame and put in some drawn comb from my brother-in-law's top bar hive to hopefully help keep them in. One hive built quite a bit of comb in addition to the drawn. The other did not begin to draw any comb.


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

instead of screening them in you could also put a queen excluder under the brood box on top of the bottom board and one on top of the brood box under the inner cover to keep the queen in the hive if she can't get out the rest should stay. but in my opinion for a little more money nucs are worth the extra money. and you can split a nuc the first year.


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