# I need advice for transferring feral bees



## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

I really need more information. Can you get to the nest and comb? If so cut the comb out and rubber band it into frames. Get as much brood as possible in the frames and place them in your hive box. set the box as close as possible to the bees. If you can't get to the bees and comb, then you will have to coax them out into a bee trap. Look up Hogan's Bee Trap, there is lots of info. on here about trapping bees using the Hogan Bee Trap.


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

The nest is inside the holes of cinder blocks that make a wall, I can get to the nest but how to get in is another question. There is comb and bees all the way at the top of the wall which is about 4 feet high. I have a smoker, so should I use that to get the bees away and cut out some of the comb that is at the top? I have a pic, but no idea how to post it here....currently they occupy three to four "squares" in the cinderblock. Again, no idea how deep the comb goes since the wall is pretty tall and therefore the holes are long. Hope that helped a little bit....


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

Is it just one hole that they can enter through? If you can block off all the entrances and force them to enter at one location you can set a bee trap, and get them entering through the trap and once they start using the trap you can start harvesting the bees. The only problem, it sounds like you have no access to any other hives and in order for the trap to work you have to bait it with fresh brood, and without another hive I don't know where you would get any brood. Check out Hogan's Bee Harvester, you can find out all about it on the net, and here in this forum.


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

They have about three "squares" in the cinderblock they enter in and out of. The whole top of the wall is completely open stacked cinder blocks. You can see straight down the empty ones. The honeycomb and bees are right at the top of the openings. I also have a hive, racks with beeswax sheets already installed as a base. Just need to get the bees in the box!


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

You can't pull them out with foundation. It is going to take brood to make them come into your box. You either have to use a bee trap or you will have to remove the blocks in order to get the bees. Do you know anyone that has experience with bees that could help you?


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## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

It's an open top cinder block. Make a plywood box to fit on top of the wall....no bottom and one end open about 4 inches. That would create one entrance. Smoke'm, cut as much comb as you can and rubber band into empty frames, then implement Mr. Hogans' trapout method to get the remaining bees.


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Fortunately I have a family friend that had bees in Crete for forty years plus. He will be guiding me and giving me help. Just wanted to do some research beforehand and see if there are any methods I may ask him about.


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Sounds like a great plan! Thanks for all the great advice everyone!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

kopelia...anyone else... send me an e-mail, [email protected] and I will send you my 12 page guide for trapouts with photos of trapouts in progress. 

No charge for this information. And, no salesman will call you, HA!

cchoganjr


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Is there mortar (cement) between the blocks? You used the word stacked which implies held only by gravity to me but that may be a regional thing. If not you can just unstack the wall and recover the bees and comb as you go. Otherwise the idea above to build a box on top of the wall through which the bees must enter and leave is good, I would incorporate your box of foundation as its first layer. In time the bees may move up into the box and start brood there, no guarantee, bees will do as they wish. This might not happen till next spring. If brood appears you can remove the box and replace it with another. The bees in the first box (or the wall) will make a queen if she was in the other place. This is sort of a hogan trap done vertical. If you manage to get a hive split off from the wall you will have the material (brood frames) to make it happen again with greater ease. Read Mr Hogans posts on here to get a feel for how his method works.

Some here would advise that a five frame nuc box is a more appropriate size box in small hive beetle and wax moth infested areas.

Good luck, have fun,
Bill


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Yes there is mortar between the blocks. So taking the wall apart will not be very easy I suppose. I'm gathering the best method is to trap the bees in a box built above the openings in the wall. Then possibly get a bit of comb and if I'm lucky at least some brood into the box so they set up shop there?


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Thanks so much! I'll email as soon as I get to my computer!


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Putting the box over them will keep the rain off too.
Bill


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Yeah, right now they are completely exposed...perhaps putting the new box out near the nest might lure them to a nicer, dry home? And what about swarm lure products? Do they work? Or is the trapout method my safest bet for recovering as many of the bees as possible including the queen (assuming there is one, and they aren't brooding one).


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

kopelia said:


> perhaps putting the new box out near the nest might lure them to a nicer, dry home?
> 
> Not very likely, in fact, I would bet highly unlikely. Once established bees don't leave their selected home, except under the most dire of circumstances. Bees can, and do, survive totally exposed, even in inhospitable climates. If a colony is partially exposed, they will build, (using wax and propolis), ways to channel the water flow, away from the brood nest and honey stores. I would not expect them to just move into a box, no matter how nice, or, what it is baited with, that is placed nearby. Do either a screen cone funnel or a sealed box trapout. Either will work in this situation.
> 
> ...


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

That is the exact reason I am trying to move the bees as quickly as possible. My father didn't even tell me about the nest until after he moved a plywood board that was covering the area and found them. Once he ate a bit of the honey we got from the comb on the plywood he was convinced we needed to save them. Lol So I have no idea exactly how long those bees have been there. Possibly as long as two months. This is going to be a hell of a project. Thank goodness a friend of the family has forty plus years beekeeping experience and is helping us out as well. I just like to be well informed and know the tricks of the trade. Thanks again!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Actually it is not that big a deal, as you will find out when you do your trapout. Just takes a little time. It is a great way to get experience in one aspect of beekeeping and bee management.

Don't sell yourself short. You will likely enjoy it, and it will likely be rewarding. Nothing magic about a trapout. A great way to learn, get free bees, see how ingenious bees can be when you try to trap them, and gain general bee knowledge.

Good Luck and I would love to be kept informed as to how it is going. Thank You.

cchoganjr


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

I'm super excited to start this project. I love honey and doing my part to help the bee problem is just the cherry on top! I'll post about my progress and keep you up to date. Perhaps I can figure out how to post pics soon too! Lol


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Kopelia... Posting photos are not that difficult. First place the photos on your computer in pictures or documents. Downsize them to the smallest resolution you can. When you are ready to post, click on the light green/yellow square that is 4th from the right in the tool bar above. It will then ask you where you want to get your attachment. Click on computer. Find the photo in documents or pictures, (wherever you have it stored) then double click on the photo. Then click on the box, "upload". Shazaam, photo on the Forum. The photo won't appear until you have posted your data, it will show as the routing, where the photo will come from. When you post your reply, the photo will appear.

cchoganjr


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Yay! Thanks! I'll try it as soon as I get home. Also another member offered to post a few for me as well. I'll try to get a shot of the entire wall as well as a close up of the bees (well as close as I can get! Lol)


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

The first picture
http://imageshack.us/a/img43/356/u3z5.jpg


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

The second photo
http://imageshack.us/a/img196/6371/03ye.jpg


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

The third photo
http://imageshack.us/a/img43/3474/xvp3.jpg


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Thanks so much for posting these for me!!


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

Here are some of the challanges that I see.

First their brood chamber in the concrete brick is not the same size as the one you are going to fit them into. It looks like a six inch square center. What is the diameter and volume of hive you are removing/relocating?

Second I see the frames you have in the new hive have the plastic covered with beeswas.

I would use as much of their comb as possible and keep it as intact as you can.

I would locate the queen if you can. Assume she is deep inside the hive because you don't want to destroy her by accident removing the comb.

Ofcource I have just started beekeeping this year, and this is what my initial approach would bee.

Remove or 3 of the plastic frames from your frameset. You will initially use their comb and their "frame". You can tie it with wire. ONe method is to drill holes in the wood frame and thread their comb inplace. It won't be perfect, but they will feel like they are at home. Plus the new bees that emerge will see their box as home.

You can cut it away using a butter knife and put into a bucket. You might try getting a small section initially to see how long it takes to put together. I would position it inside the new brood chamber with 2 regular plastic frames between. That will hopefully force them to build comb on the new plastic frames you supplied.

Looks like you got more comb than the 1 box will hold. Key is to find and secure the queen. 

Good Luck!


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

I will try and get as much comb as I can, I'll go to the shop tomorrow and take a pic of the entire wall so you can see what I'm dealing with. I was going to remove a few of the plastic sheets, so great to know that I was thinking along the same lines. I like the idea of sandwiching it in between two "filled" frames. The box is a deep super....with ten 10" frames. Moving day is Monday which is the soonest I can get my friend over to help me. Plus dad is out of town and this is located behind his auto repair shop so I'd like him to be around too. 

And don't worry, and comb I can't fit in the box I have certainly won't go to waste! Especially if there's honey in it, that's going on my toast! Hahaha! Pray I find the queen guys! Fingers crossed! Wish me luck! 

Also, painting the box....white low VOC? Or no pain at at all??


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

kopelia... I would caution against just getting as much comb as you can get. You really only want to get good comb that has good brood on it. Make sure you have enough bees to completely cover and work the comb you save. If not, you will be inviting SHBs and Wax Moths. The bees will have to work hard to repair the combs, knit them to the frames, clean up the hive you give them, so, don't overwhelm them with comb.

Also, I don't think I would start them out by splitting the brood between plastic frames. I would wait and add the frames later, between frames of bees, but not splitting the brood nest of a colony that has just been through a traumatic experience. You can split the brood in an established hive, but, I don't like to do it in a new colony that has a lot of work to clean up. 

cchoganjr


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Thanks for this advice, what does comb with brood look like? I've seen pictures on google, but is there like a telltale sign? And I should probably take just that comb then and leave racks open or just a couple filled ones on the ends? How many racks should I try and fill? Questions, questions...lol


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Comb that has capped and/or uncapped brood will come in several different colors. Most often, but not always, will have a semicircle ring from one inch to 4 inches of honey above the brood. Chocolate color indicates the brood is about ready to emerge. Brown or tan tells you it is a week to 15 days from emerging, and bright yellow is newly capped brood. Search the net to view what brood looks like and be prepared to know the difference between brood and capped honey which also comes in the colors already listed. Have your mentor point out the difference. It is almost impossible to just describe the difference so you would understand. You need to see it, from then on, you will recognize it. I would recommend against putting a lot of capped honey in the box. Concentrate on good capped brood comb.

cchoganjr


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

I think I can see larva in the photo. In the bottom left center where you see the exposed comb. It looks like there is larva in there and the bees haven't capped it yet as it is still in the early stages of growth. Better photos of the cells will tell. The larva looks like a small white grain of rice. After it grows it curls up in the bottom of the cell and has circular ridges in it.
There is a photo of some larva like I am referring to on this page. The 1st photo.
http://www.richardton-taylor.k12.nd.us/lindsey.kirschenheiter/insect.page.htm

Also since there is no queen excluder she could be laying eggs in the honey. Be sure to clean/strain it well.


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

So then that should probably be the square I concentrate on the most getting comb from, I will do my best to get the queen out...what happens if I don't find her? Will they "make" another in the new hive or just go back to the old spot?


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Cool...I saw pics online so I think I have an idea of what they look like. Thank goodness my mentor has so much experience!


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

{I will do my best to get the queen out...what happens if I don't find her? Will they "make" another}


If you have some eggs or brood no more than 4 days old they will make a new queen, that is another reason why getting the brood is so important.

Of all the advice you are getting none is more important than what Cleo Hogan is giving you. He is definitely the Guru of feral bee trapping.


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Awesome...I am so happy to have found this forum! Everything seems to be falling into place. Now to get those bees into their new home and making me some sweet, sweet, honey. I'd rather eat that than candy any day! Another forum instantly told me just to kill them and buy a $20 box of bees if I wanted to start beekeeping so bad...hah! They didn't even try to help me.


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

Get back in contact with the person that told you to buy some $20.00 packages, and find out who is selling them. I'll buy all of them I can get. Bee prices have changed in the last few years. Anymore, a $25.00 queen is a bargain. I paid $96.00 a piece for some 3 pound packages of bees this spring.


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Right! I think the guy was just being a jerk. It was like they were thinking: "How dare a newbie come here to our kingdom and ask questions of the all knowing bee people?! Grrr...away with you girl!" I'll go back and ask if you want...I'm not afraid of the scary mean bee people. Lol


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## Bill91143 (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm sure he was just being a jerk. He doesn't really know of any $20.00 bees. If he did and he knows anything about bees he would be buying them himself.


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

For sure...the trapout begins Monday. Will keep you all posted and take pics of the process as we go. Thanks again for all the advice and for being so kind to me. I really appreciate it. And of course so do the bees...


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Big day is tomorrow! Wish me luck everyone! I'll post pics as soon as I can!!


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Good luck


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## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

kopelia, any updates?


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Well the gentleman I am working with tore the wall apart and did not listen to any advice I had gotten here. The bees are still in the wall but slowly moving up into the box after I put some comb on the frames after removing the plastic sheets. I had to do it while the guy was gone, but I had to go w my gut and what I was told here. I hope with this mans 40 plus yrs of beekeeping he knows what he's doing.


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

I will post pics as soon as I get home as I am at work and on my phone.


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Here's a few pics of what's happening so far...
Closeup:








The Wall:








Bees:








They go all the way down to the bottom of the wall.

Forgot to get a pic of the comb I put into the frames, but I checked them this morning and there were tons more bees in the box now. Also took out five frames. So three have comb bits on them and two with the beeswax coated plastic. I had no idea the amount of bees in that wall! I also put the top back on the box properly. He started with the two small holes on the bottom and tried to smoke them out up into the box. We got one of the blocks off and I used the comb from that block. It was empty...I'm hoping they were about to fill it up. Another piece of comb had tons of pollen all in the cells so here's hoping they don't just rob it and take it back into the wall!


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Nothing to report yet, the wall still looks the same, bees happliy flying in and out full of pollen...there has GOT to be a queen deep in that wall and probably all the wa at the bottom. As for the man who was supposed to help me, he made the mess ou see and then left for two weeks for vacation. It has been very rain down here in S. Fla lately so the bees have been very aggressive and also it's not the best weather to be smoking and cutting up a hive! I am now coming to the conclusion that the entire wall needs to come down as I have seen scouts in empty cells in the cinderblocks, so they are definitely thinking of expanding. Is there anyone in the Ft Lauderdale area that would help a girl out? I still really want to save these bees as I have already invested a bit of time and money into this. Or else if it comes down to it, anyone who wants to come and get these bees I'll just take a jar full of honey and a nice piece of comb in it. I'm getting kind of frustrated because evertime the weather is good the guy isn't around or if the guy is around the weather is bad. ARGH!


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## toadfish (Jul 22, 2013)

don't give up I would keep going with the box on top if it gets full of bees you could add a queen and have a hive started


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Took a look inside today since it was the first clear day in about a week and no bees inside. The comb was brown and smelled kind of funny so I took it out. Funny thing is, a few hours after that some if the larger bees were flying in and out of the box. So we will see what happens. I'm headed over there now just to observe them as its sunset. I'd like to see the full scale of the hive as I've only been able to see it in the hottest part of the day or when it's overcast and the bees were very jumpy. They are pretty mild otherwise and let you get pretty close. I'll try and post a few pics for you of some close ups of the hive as soon as I can  Patience pays, right?


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Oh by smelled funny I mean like fermented. Or rotten fruit.


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

Ok, so here are a few closeup shots of the wall and what I can see inside....wasn't able to get out there last night, but am going straight after work today and hopefully there are bees in the box!

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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I haven't read the whole Thread, so excuse me if this has already been covered. Can you get ahold of a bee vac?


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## kopelia (Jul 4, 2013)

No, the gentleman that is helping me is totally old school, like from the village old school....I suppose one could be made. It's just my fiance and I at this point now, until the man returns.


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