# Treatment free with a single hive?



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

My opinion is that your colony is not from stock selected for mite tolerance and therefore will most likely die within the next 2 years unless you treat them for varroa. This does not mean that I advocate treating for varroa, I'm just stating what I think will happen. I have kept bees treatment free since 2005, but it was done by moving entirely to mite tolerant stock. Michael Bush will read this and hopefully give you his perspective. Keep in mind that his climate and my climate are dramatically different so what works for him would not necessarily work for me.... or for you.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

welcome to the forum nick! 

i'm sure you will get all kinds of answers to your query but in the end it is up to you how to proceed. sounds like you've done your homework. experimenting and learning are part of the fun. make a choice, see what happens, and adjust your program accordingly.

maintaining just one colony is tough either on or off treatments, but if that's what you have to work with then there you are.

i wouldn't worry too much about influencing the genetics with only one colony.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> My opinion is that your colony is not from stock selected for mite tolerance


I'm sure that's true.



Fusion_power said:


> I have kept bees treatment free since 2005, but it was done by moving entirely to mite tolerant stock.


That's the trouble of course - sourcing mite-tolerant stock. And from what I've read from Michael Bush, his technique is simply to breed for it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!

Whether you choose to treat or not, beekeeping with only _one _hive is _more _difficult than with two or more hives. Two hives gives you options that just aren't available with only one hive.

There is no reason your hives have to be separated by any material distance - you can have the second hive (and more) right next to the first hive.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> welcome to the forum nick!


Thanks!



squarepeg said:


> i wouldn't worry too much about influencing the genetics with only one colony.


I guess that's really the essence of what I'm asking: how many colonies do you need before you can hope to improve your genetics?


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> beekeeping with only _one _hive is _more _difficult than with two or more hives.


This is what I'm now realising, and I think it's interesting that new beekeepers aren't more strongly guided to start off with 2 hives. I suppose the idea of getting a single hive is daunting enough for a first timer, and you need to learn from your own experiences.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

No one should run just one hive. You will have no resources if things are not going well or if you just need to insure things are going well. A frame of open brood is a wonderful resource which you can only get for a hive that has no open brood if you have two hives. It is the best insurance if you suspect they MIGHT be queenless.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

EDITED TO ADD: I clicked on this thread from the Recent Post index and didn't realize (before replying) that it was posted in the TF forum, so I apologize if my comments about treating _in this particular instance_ violate the TF forum rules. 

I started beekeeping last June with three because that's the number of swarms I had to remove from one of my buildings. I would have started with one if I had been buying bees, because as a beginner it would have made sense to me to not be overly ambitious with a new project. But I am realy glad to have started with three by accident.

I used sticky boards more or less constantly most of last summer and as I approached autumn, one needed no treatment, one obviously was in the treatment category, and one appeared to need no treament, but that changed a couple of weeks later. So even though I'd like to have "treatment free bees", I treated the ones that needed it and left the other one alone. So I would suggest you treat your bees if you think they need it. 

You didn't say how you arrived at "15-20" mites, but if that was a 24 hour sticky board drop, then it would be enough to get me thinking of treating. But if it was the only day you measured, I would immediately repeat it for three or four consecutive days and get an average number. I occasionally see a spike in numbers on a single day that is way off the long-term daily average. I don't know how to interpret those spikes (and I have looked diligently for data about it.) But when people are discussing average drop numbers and treatment thresholds, I think a multi-day average is a better starting point.

BTW, I'm confused by your 15-20 number. With numbers as low as that you should be able to have an exact number. The reason I'm stressing that is that if your are just eye-balling the board, you may be seriously undercounting, which would be a problem if you are basing treatment decisions on quick visual estimates. I find it useful to have a damp toothpick that I use to pick up the mites from the sticky board as I go over it. I remove them to a corner of the board as I see them. I don't worry about counting them until I can find no more on the board. Then I use a hand lens as I go over the captured mites to sort them out from non-mite debris specks that I picked up during the scan. (Actually because I am in my 60s I use a hand lens during the scan part, too, and a small flashlight.) 

If you've got good counts, and a daily average numbers of 15-20 I think you are in the treatment range, or at least that's what I would think if I had those numbers. And I don't think it's "selfish" to consider treating at your stage in beekeeping and size of your apiary. If you are not starting with bees from known mite-resistant stock (assuming you could get that) and if they need treatment it could be viewed as "selfish" to allow your bees to go about foraging with mites on them that could fall off and be picked up by other bees on the forage, or having a hive with mites in it that dwindles down allowing robbers to come and get mites during the robbing.

Also, don't get confused by the "genetics" of breeding for, or propagating, mite-resistant bees. Your single colony already has its genetics all set, they came with your nuc or package and will never be different unless you lose or change your queen. It's not like you're engaged in breeding successive generations that could have different recombinations of genetic traits. That takes many hives, and relative isolation of a large group of hives.

What you can do right now is monitor the mites, and if necessary treat with relatively "soft" treatments to see if that will do the trick for your bees. And then you can continue to learn and improve your beekeeping skills. If you can get your colony through the winter, you could consider using some of them for a split next year and requeening it with a mite-resistant queen, which will add improved genetics to your apiary. And gradually select for more mite resistant stock that's good in your area. I think locally-adapted bees have a better chance to evolve into mite-resistant stock, because they are able to do the first thing that's necessary: survive. Right now you have bees that may be able to survive, if treated. Start there.

BTW, just so you can know my biases in evaluating my advice: I would like to become treatment-free; it is my goal. As I mentioned my bees came from unknown sources (all three swarms) so they are "mutt" bees. Whether they are genetically from "local survivor" feral stock or merely recent swarms from someone else's apiary, is unknown. In late summer/early Fall one clearly needed treatment (daily sticky board average reached "more than 12" which is the recommended threshhold in my area for late summer) and I treated it with Apiguard; one only got to the treatment threshold very late in the season, so I treated it for half the recommended time (had to stop when temps went below level where Apiguard would work) and one never reached "treatable levels", so I didn't treat it all. I have even kept sticky boards in and being monitored all winter, just for curiosity (there's no information on how to interpret brood-less period winter data, so I'm not sure what the numbers mean). All three of my hives have made it 90% through this long, brutal winter (temps expected _tonight_, for instance, are minus 7 F/minus 21 C), so I am satisfied. I want to become treatment free, but I know it will take two things: I need to learn to be a skilled beekeeper, and I will have to select, over time, for more mite-resistant bees that are locally adapted to my area. But in order to select for mite-resistant bees, I have to have bees to select from to support the genetics that will come from queens I'll have to find _and bring here_. (Or perhaps I'll get lucky and my one - and so far untreated - hive will have some genetic capacity in that line that I can replicate.) At any rate if my bees all die from being untreated then in the meantime, I am not learning beekeeping skills; I am allowing an untreated hive to collapse and die which adds to mite and disease pressures on neighboring bees, particularly any feral, unmanaged colonies that may exist; and I am not supporting worker-bee resources that could be used to build up a colony with better genetics. Remember, worker bees add nothing to the genetic line since they don't breed; drones only add to the genetics of other colonies, so in the hive you have now, ONLY YOUR EXISTING QUEEN'S GENETICS are in play. And she was mated, for her one and only time, before you even got your bees. That's the basis for my recommendation to treat, if necessary, to sustain your colony in preparation for the winter to come. What you use is very locally dependent, and dependent on your personal tolerance for adding to the overall pesticide loads to your area. Please don't confuse the "hard Bond" (live or let die) approach that some bee breeders might use to select using many colonies with what's useful for someone with a single hive and no other rersource for replacment than simply buying a new package or nuc of bees next year if your present one dies. Who is to say that next year's bees will be any better genetically (better being defined as more mite-resistant AND locally adapted) than the ones you have now. (And 15-20, while at the treatment threshold, IMO, is not devastating numbers; daily amounts of 100s - which might occur if you don't treat, are devastating.) If you haven't been doing daily monitoring, perhaps 15-20 is on the downside of a previous, unnoticed, peak and perhaps your bees are already somewhat mite-"managing". They have two things going for them: they are alive at the end of their first summer and they have an engaged beekeeper who is paying attention to them. 

I can't really suggest which treatment to use if you decide to do that. I chose Apiguard (a thymol-based product) because it was recommended as a softer treatment at the time I needed it. I have other plans for this year, sugar dusting, which I don't have too much hope for, but will try first. And perhaps OAV, which is not approved in my area, but still available. My bees had an extended brood break period last summer due to a) being swarms, b) almost immediately cut-out of walls and c) two of the three lost their queens in the cut-out (actually the two that needed treatment, go figure!) and needing to gin-up new queens from previously laid young eggs. So while not as thorough as a managed brood break, I am not impressed with brood breaks as a management tool for reducing mite pressure, though I may try that again in some form this summer. 

If your (treated or not) bees survive the winter you could add another package (or nuc) of specifically chosen mite-resistant stock, and perhaps also buy a mite-resistant, mated queen to add to a split from your over-wintered bees. Then with three hives you'd be in a position to begin a solid low-to-no-treatment pathway towards a treatment-free apiary. 

Hope my suggestions are at least thought-provoking, and possibly useful, to a fellow first-year beekeeper. 

Enj.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> No one should run just one hive.


And yet this is the first time I've ever seen it said straight-out. Thanks for your candor.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

Thanks so much for such a thorough answer enjambres.

I don't think we really have anyone selling mite-resistant queens here in New Zealand yet, and I have found very few references to people going treatment free. The problem is that varroa only arrived in New Zealand in 2000, so we haven't had very much time to breed our resistant strains. And we'll have to breed them - our biosecurity laws (designed of course to prevent the introduction of pests like Varroa - oops!) will not allow anyone to import new genetics.

Anyway, I really appreciate the advice I've been given so far. At this stage I think the correct move for me is to do an autumn treatment of some kind (probably formic acid), and then split in spring.

I suppose if I want to start trying to improve my own genetics then I could think about making several splits into nucs and try to assess which ones do best over summer, and then consolidate next autumn. Does that sound like a feasible way forward?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that VSH queens are available in New Zealand.

That would be a good starter queen to use. They should be at least 50% VSH for TF beekeeping.

However, you do have to re-queen every year, minimum..


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it's often said that all beekeeping is local. we have a forum member that goes by the screen name of 'oldtimer' who also hails from new zealand. he has been keeping bees for many years and has discussed how varroa has impacted beekeeping in your location. if i understand his posts correctly, varroa has virtually wiped out the feral bee population there and there have not been any successes at treatment free yet. oldtimer tried using the methods that michael bush recommends including small cell and set up a treatment free yard to see if he could propagate some survivors. i don't believe any of them made it past a year or two. so yes, i think it's feasible to consider the softer treatments if that's what it takes until the bees and the breeders in your location make some progress. you can see more from oldtimer here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/member.php?75892-Oldtimer


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OT is over 200 miles to the north. That's not quite 'local'.

I had no trouble finding a VSH queen breeder in New Zealand doing a google search.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

WLC said:


> I think that VSH queens are available in New Zealand.
> 
> That would be a good starter queen to use. They should be at least 50% VSH for TF beekeeping.
> 
> However, you do have to re-queen every year, minimum..


Why would you have to re-queen every year? If you have a good queen, why replace her?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Because that's the way VSH genetics works. The traits have been described as recessive, and there's more than one of them involved.

If your bees do re-queen themselves while you're treatment free, there's a good chance that they will no longer be sufficiently VSH.

That's a good reason to buy VSH queens marked and clipped, if available.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> oldtimer tried using the methods that michael bush recommends including small cell and set up a treatment free yard to see if he could propagate some survivors. i don't believe any of them made it past a year or two.


Thanks for the reference, I'll have a look over oldtimer's posts.

I know of at least one other who is trying to go treatment free, and is having mixed results - some of his hives are doing OK but I think they've only had a year or 2. The are also very remote and have very little interaction with other bees.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

WLC said:


> I had no trouble finding a VSH queen breeder in New Zealand doing a google search.


True, once you know what to google for 

It does sounds like a good starting point and I'll definitely look into sourcing VSH queens, thanks.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

When you hear the term 'resistant stock' in TF circles, they're often referring to feral stocks, which might not be available to you in New Zealand just yet.

VSH does appear to be available to you in New Zealand at this time, and it's likely a better starting point than using non resistant stocks.

Non-resistant stocks will simply fade to mites within 3 years, and you'll likely have the local 'nuisance' hives if you simply stop treating.

I've tried VSH, and did fine until I tried splitting them without re-queening with VSH genetics. Live and learn.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

Actually after a little more googling, I can't find anyone selling VSH queens, it doesn't look like our VSH breeding programs have progressed far enough yet.

VSH is also something which is never mentioned on bushfarms.com (except in the glossary). Michael Bush, do you know if your treatment free hives have high percentages of the VSH genetics?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I saw this:

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/farming/291418/queen-honeybees-vsh-trait-aid-varroa-control


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Nick Spoon, there is a lot of good advice here. Most on here seem to recommend starting with two hives and a nuc but I started with just one too. I soon realized one wasn't enough. I want to keep two full size hives but now feel in order to do that I need to keep a few nucs. This past fall I did mite counts using the detergent wash method and plan to do them every spring and fall now even though I am treatment free. It really helps as to management decisions.

(Down to 2 KTBH nucs from 5 at the start of winter)


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

WLC said:


> I saw this:
> 
> http://www.odt.co.nz/news/farming/291418/queen-honeybees-vsh-trait-aid-varroa-control


Yes I also found several news articles, and there is apparently at least one research apiary researching VSH. The article also said that they are selling the queens, but I suspect the demand will be high, and the availability low. But I'll certainly keep my ear to the ground.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

Thanks Colleen O. So you keep the nucs as backup brood/queens to support the 2 full-size hives? When you say you're down to 2 nucs from 5, is that because you've been merging the nucs into the full-size hives periodically, or have they just died over winter? When you merge hives, do you just kill one of the queens, or do you only do it when one of the queens has died anyway?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It's still daytime where you are. Why not look them up and give them a ring?

What's the worst that they can say? I think that you'll find that trying to get hold of resistant stock will always take time and effort.

But, I'll say this, finding them by telephone or internet is a lot easier than going on a 'safari'. 

http://www.zipleaf.co.nz/Companies/Rainbow-Honey-Hiveware

I think it's them...

Rainbow Honey & Hiveware
32 Karaka St, Hamilton, New Zealand 
Phone: 0-25-742 904

Good Luck.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

WLC said:


> I think it's them...


Ha, you are dedicated to sourcing me a good queen 

Ok I'll give them a call tomorrow during business hours, thanks for the help.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Nick Spoon said:


> Thanks Colleen O. So you keep the nucs as backup brood/queens to support the 2 full-size hives? When you say you're down to 2 nucs from 5, is that because you've been merging the nucs into the full-size hives periodically, or have they just died over winter? When you merge hives, do you just kill one of the queens, or do you only do it when one of the queens has died anyway?


I have lost three so far this winter but the remaining two look to be strong and if they pull through this last cold snap they will probably start taking off. I did the five because I was hoping to find some with traits to get them through. It seemed that until things stabilized trying to be treatment free meant losing half or more of your bees so I played the numbers game. (See the Michael Palmer sustainable apiary youtube video.) This next year I hope to go into winter with two full size hives and three nucs (my local ordinances limit me to 5 colonies on my property). I think after the hives take off I will take these two overwintered queens out and put them into nucs and let the hives requeen with their daughters in an effort to not lose them to swarms. The nucs will give me resources if there are any problems during the year.

This last fall I should have combined (merged) two of my weakest nucs and if I had that colony might have made it. From the mite testing and other behavior observations I knew which queen I wanted to keep (I would have pinched the other one and done a combine) but was afraid to do it because the mite count on the one colony was so bad. In hindsight I may have been better served doing something about the mites in the weak colony so that I could combine them. Lots of hard earned lessons in beekeeping.

Also of note, there are tests to see if your bees are hygienic. I didn't do the freeze test but I observed some of the traits in my locally mated daughter from the hygienic package queen which is why I kept her.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Nick Spoon said:


> , but I suspect the demand will be high, and the availability low. But I'll certainly keep my ear to the ground.


I dont think demand is particularly high, 

I wouldn't hold my breath for anything special or different to the bees you have now


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

Hi frazzledfozzle, I've been reading your posts on NZBees (lurking).



frazzledfozzle said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath for anything special or different to the bees you have now


Why do you say that? Surely bees that have been bred for the specific purpose of mite tolerance are going to have one significant difference to the bees I have now - fewer mites!


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Hi Nick you lurker you 

To date I havent heard anything from any beekeepers that would make me want to rush out and buy a VSH queen. 

If you decide to get one I would be really interested to hear how it performs for you


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Nick I have read your thread. If you do not treat the bees they will be dead in a few months.

This is New Zealand, not America.

But I'm not saying that to encourage you to treat, the best lesson learned is the hard one. If you lose you bees you will be wiser next time.

The two methods you suggested being sugar and formic are unlikely to work for you. Sugar, cos it does not actually kill mites, and formic because it needs to be done in the right hive configuration and a top bar is very difficult.

However this is the treatment free section and I've probably already stretched the patience of some.

Are you active on NZBees? If so there are quite a few with tops bars, you could ask them what they do, there will be two groups, those who treat, and those who no longer have bees.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OT:

Maybe both you and frazzledfozzle should get a few VSH queens from Rainbow honey. From one study I've read, if they are in fact 80% VSH, they should be able to maintain mite loads below 5%.

Any new resistance genetics is better than none.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC. 

Maybe you should first find what they are, and then find out if we have already.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

They are beginning to sound like an organization that absorbs public funds for the purpose of ...... er, well, absorbing public funds.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Nick there are several ways to manipulate the hive to get around the mites without using chemical treatments. From brood breaks, removing capped brood to shook swarming. They should be used throughout the season at key times for best results. It may be too late in your season to apply any of these, I don't know your location.

In my location the winter bees mostly emerge in Oct. With that in mind one option that will reduce mite numbers going into winter is to remove one cycle of capped brood just after harvest. You can freeze the capped brood killing the mites then replace the comb after it has been warmed and had the brood capping's removed. Again in my location this would be done in Aug, not sure of the timing for you. Aug is the latest as 2 months of brood rearing is important to get back to a populous hive that can produce a good crop of winter bees. As a mention our honey flow is mostly over around July 15th so feeding is needed to generate brood rearing. This is a bit extreme and would only be done to save a colony that has a high mite load due to neglect. 

If you are really wanting to not use chemical treatments in your hive/s it would be to your advantage to look into brood breaks and shook swarming. To do nothing will not help your bees prosper. A good start would be to have a look a Mel Disselkoen's video. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIYz65Vquxg


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> WLC.
> Maybe you should first find what they are, and then find out if we have already.


So you're saying you tried VSH already.

If so, from whom, how many, what was the VSH %age, and how did they do? Also, did you remember to re-queen regularly? 

I liked the VSH bees I had. However, I needed bees that are more suited to very high, July rooftop temperatures. Thus, the BeeWeavers from Texas. On the flip side, now I get to see how Texas bees can handle a tough winter.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> So you're saying you tried VSH already.


Correct.

From whom? Thought you knew everything. Rainbow obviously.

How did they do? Got mites like all the other bees.

Don't get me wrong I support the breeding program & have in fact discussed it on Beesource several times. But there is more work needs doing. I'm not sure there is a fixed, mite resistant, VSH line anywhere in the world.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OT:

Rainbow is saying they're 80% VSH at this time. What was the stated %age when you bought yours? 

The reason %age VSH is important is that a study indicated that at 75% VSH, the mite load was below the critical 5% threshold.

Also, you really have to state for how long you had them, and if you re-queened with VSH regularly. Once the VSH queens are gone, they're like any other bees.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

Thanks very much to everyone for your advice. To be clear, I am not dedicated to any particular methodology or course of action, I'm just trying to further my knowledge so I can make good decisions - I am currently researching as many different options as I can, and as I've only just caught the beek obsession it takes a while to catch up.

Treatment free is a concept that I love and most of what Michael Bush writes sounds great, but as I said I was unsure whether this was even possible with a single hive and I was curious about the "hole" in my reading regarding a minimum number of hives required for TF beekeeping. It has been made clear in the various responses that it is far better to have a couple of extra hives in general, it is crucial for TF beekeeping, and TF is not really possible in NZ at this time (although as I mentioned earlier, Roy Arbon is doing it on the west coast of the SI, but I'm unsure how long he's been going - it also sounds like a couple of others on the NZBees forum are at least attempting it).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> OT:
> 
> Rainbow is saying they're 80% VSH at this time.


WLC

How many thousand dollars would you recommend Nick spends on his queen?

If he wants an open mated production queen for a more realistic cost it will almost certainly not be 80% VSH.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Fusion_power said:


> They are beginning to sound like an organization that absorbs public funds for the purpose of ...... er, well, absorbing public funds.


Couldn't have said it better! 

Its been known that the research funding holds the place up in a bad honey year


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

WLC said:


> OT:
> 
> Rainbow is saying they're 80% VSH at this time.


I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that all their bees are at 80% they might have one hive at 80% they are breeding from dosn't mean the daughters are 80%.

Also the queens they sell are open mated so its a crap shoot on what you end up with.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Nick, Roy is treatment free but you should ask him how many actually survive.

The thing with being treatment free in NZ at this time is that it wont work with a single colony.

The only way I think you could maybe survive treatment free is to split your hives frequently and run alot more than one hive that way as your hives die you will have your splits to replace them.

You might not get alot of honey and you will have alot of dead hives and bees but you could probably keep your head above water.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

frazzledfozzle said:


> I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that all their bees are at 80% they might have one hive at 80% they are breeding from dosn't mean the daughters are 80%. Also the queens they sell are open mated so its a crap shoot on what you end up with.


Unless you've been to their bee yards, I wouldn't be so discouraging regarding their ability to produce 80% VSH queens.

As for the cost, that only takes a phone call.

As for the comments about grants and funding received by Rainbow Honey to continue developing VSH genetics...

It's a moot point when it comes to obtaining resistant stocks of any kind.

Nick is going to need to layer his approach to keeping treatment free bees in NZ.

Splitting is one good layer to keep things going. Starting with VSH stock is another.

Since I tend to like 3 layers to TF beekeeping, maybe grease patties with essential oils (food grade) could be another.

However, having a source of replacement queens (Rainbow) is critical to have with VSH/TF beekeeping because if you lose the VSH queen, she has to be replaced ASAP.

By the way, I'm seeing that Rainbow Honey is an organic operation.

Perhaps they would make a good fit with Nick's goals.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> Unless you've been to their bee yards, I wouldn't be so discouraging regarding their ability to produce 80% VSH queens.


LOL 



WLC said:


> Nick is going to need to layer his approach to keeping treatment free bees in NZ.


LOL. Maybe if you knew anything about beekeeping in NZ clearly you don't.



WLC said:


> Since I tend to like 3 layers to TF beekeeping, maybe grease patties with essential oils (food grade) could be another.


that statement is an oxymoron


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Clearly, Nick is going to try going TF in New Zealand.

He's going to need some kind of mite resistance going his way. Splitting might not be enough.

Unless there's another source of resistant bees besides Rainbow's VSH, it's the only game in town.

You need more folks like Nick (and Rainbow Honey) in NZ to develop resistant stocks.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

I've just spoken with Rae from Nelson Honey (associated with the Rainbow Honey mentioned in the ODT article mentioned earlier, but NOT the Hamilton Rainbow Honey whose contact details are listed above - slightly confusing), she sells open-mated VSH queens for $51. She's sending me some more info about the current state of the project, which I'll post here. I've also directed her to this thread, so we might be able to hear from her directly.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

So you called RH in Hamilton and they gave you the correct number?

Oops. I'm sorry. But, I figured they'd know how to contact the other operation.

I'm looking forward to hearing about their progress.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

No I called RH in Hamilton and they knew nothing about VSH and didn't supply queens, so I figured I was in the wrong place, re-read the ODT article and worked out where they were, and googled again.

Unfortunately I don't think I can post attachments here?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes Nick please update this thread in due course for WLC's education.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You're going to be doing a lot of that kind of digging if you're going to go treatment free.

Just pm Barry with an attachment if you want to put one up.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> Since I tend to like 3 layers to TF beekeeping, maybe grease patties with essential oils (food grade) could be another.


WLC

If you tend to like treating with essential oils, and treating with grease patties, as another layer to treatment free beekeeping, are you really advocating treatment free beekeeping?

Heck if I judged myself by your standards, I'd just about be a treatment free beekeeper myself LOL


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It's all food grade OT. Sugar, Crisco, and some peppermint. No pesticides however. I think the peppermint grease patties improves their disposition overall.

Let's face it, you're just jealous because I can get BeeWeaver's in midtown.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Jealous? More curious. About how you say you are treatment free, but advocate treating.

Not quite sure how that works?

How much peppermint grease patties do you use to treat them?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Jealous? More curious. About how you say you are treatment free, but advocate treating.
> Not quite sure how that works?
> How much peppermint grease patties do you use to treat them?


I wouldn't call peppermint grease patties a treatment.

They're more like a 'Happy Meal'. An appetite stimulant/sedative.

The bees consume only a small portion of the patty. I think they make the bees easier to work mostly.

If you want to talk about LAB fermented syrup and milk as a possible TF issue, I've gotten pH readings indicating that the concentration of lactic acid is within the effective dose range.

I'm food grade only. No. I'm not an 'orthodox' TF guy.

For instance, since MAQs are now 'organic certified', I can see how a pesticide free TFer could justify using MAQs in an organic setting.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

No I wasn't raising the fermented milk you feed them as an issue.

Just wondering how you call yourself treatment free when you treat. Other than the fermented milk, and essential oils and grease patty "happy meals", what other treatments do you give them?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

How am I a TFer? I don't use pesticides. I use resistant stocks.

Just to be clear, while I understand the 'orthodox' TF philosophy, I won't be co-opted by 'forum rules' as a pesticide free beekeeper.

Now, you can try to call peppermint grease patties a pesticide, but I think that's too 'orthodox'. 

Besides, I don't think they're a 'treatment'. I use them to improve the disposition of the girls. They just seem happier and more productive with them on.

My bees, my call.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> Just to be clear, while I understand the 'orthodox' TF philosophy, I won't be co-opted by 'forum rules' as a pesticide free beekeeper.


Plain English translation. - Under the forum rules, you are not a treatment free beekeeper.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I didn't see this mentioned but I figured that I would throw this in here. A fellow in my club had good luck with Russian queens. He did not claim that they are a silver bullet but that once he went to Russian bees his loss of colonies improved immensely. He got into Russian bees from someone that had some of the original Russian bees that were imported here by the USDA. That fellow was part of the breeding and testing program. Apparently that guy gave Russian queens out to all the beekeepers in a 10 mile radius of his bees so that his bee yard was surrounded by the Russian bees. It created a situation for him that resulted in no collapses throughout all of the colony collapse heavy years so the fellow in my club believed in the Russian bees as a bee that could do better with mites than other lines. Several other beekeepers seem to prefer Russian bees that I have become friends with. One of them has 6000 colonies. He said that he hasn't found a magic bee but that he preferred the Russian bees as far as positive survival results. I don't know if it is the hygienic behavior like they tear the cells open but rather I got the impression that the Russian bees groom each other more and perhaps swarm more so the swarming breaks the brood cycle and that helps as well.
I don't really want to have to treat so I am hoping that brood breaks will be enough. So far my results this winter were not that good but I don't think it was because of mites. I will know better after this next year's winter. I am considering trying some Russian bees again. My first hives were Russian but I didn't know what I was doing and they didn't make it but it was my fault. I think I can do better with them at this point. 200 miles doesn't seem that far. If I were in New Zealand I would offer free assistance to Old Timer for an apprenticeship position in the spring and summer on the weekends or something like that if he would have me He has mentored me on line some and has always been 100% spot on. :thumbsup:


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

"By the way, I'm seeing that Rainbow Honey is an organic operation"

inch: 

with 80% VSH queens I'm sure they want need to treat at all by next week


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Nick Spoon said:


> I've also directed her to this thread, so we might be able to hear from her directly.


Can't wait to hear the latest news.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Plain English translation. - Under the forum rules, you are not a treatment free beekeeper.


There's no evidence in the peer reviewed scientific literature that peppermint grease patties are an effective treatment for anything. It really is just sugar, Crisco, and peppermint.

So, the VSH bees I obtained were developed by institutions.

My BeeWeavers came from chemical free/organic beekeepers.

Nope, I've never gotten bees from a 'treatment free' source. I don't think any of them sell bees or queens as far as I know.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Nick Spoon said:


> Unfortunately I don't think I can post attachments here?


Here are the links:

http://www.beesource.com/files/Rainbow/Invitation_to_Beekeepers_July_2013.pdf
http://www.beesource.com/files/Rainbow/Rainbow_Honey_Newsletter_May_2013.pdf


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

Barry said:


> Here are the links:
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/files/Rainbow/Invitation_to_Beekeepers_July_2013.pdf
> http://www.beesource.com/files/Rainbow/Rainbow_Honey_Newsletter_May_2013.pdf


Thanks very much Barry, this is the info I received from Rae at Nelson Honey.


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## Nick Spoon (Mar 2, 2014)

virginiawolf said:


> A fellow in my club had good luck with Russian queens.


Thank for the input. We don't actually have Russians in New Zealand, and if we get them it will be a very careful laboratory process of importing semen and artificial insemination. We have tight (but unfortunately not very well controlled) biosecurity laws which make it illegal to bring new breeds into the country, for fear of damaging our ecosystem with interesting side effects (like varroa, for example).


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, the real question for Rae is, "Do you treat your VSH stocks?"

If they do, you'll want to know some more details.

$45 US, for an average of 40-44 %VSH is about $1 US for each % VSH.

If you pay them $80 US, would they give you an 80% VSH queen? 

While I've read that 50% VSH is a minimum, and 75% VSH gives good resistance, I wouldn't turn my nose up at an average of 40% VSH.

It might be enough for someone starting out w/ a TF horizontal hive.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Not here it won't.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Not here it won't.


They've got a range of VSH going on in their apiary.

OT: I don't know what VSH level you may have used when you tested out VSH in a treatment free setting.

However, I've seen previous recommendations here in the U.S. for 35%.

It's simple. Nick can try TF with any old queen and most likely lose the colony and become a local nuisance. Or, he can exercise some level of due diligence to mitigate that.

Frankly, going TF in a horizontal hive gives you something to talk about. But, going TF in a horizontal hive using VSH genetics, now that's what I call an interesting conversation. :thumbsup:


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

With you WLC I'm happy for him to do that if he wants.

I know what the results will be though, however a hard lesson is the best.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

OT:

I started out TF with horizontal hives. Epic failures. I then used VSH. Better, but they couldn't handle the high heat conditions. Now, I've moved on to BeeWeavers, from Texas. Very edgy.

I can empathize with Nick's situation.

In my own opinion, it's very important for folks to not only develop resistant bee stocks, but it's also important for folks to support those who are developing those stocks.

As for someone attempting TF beekeeping, I would advise them to do what they can to increase their chances of success, and avoid becoming the local nuisance beekeeper. 'Nuf said.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I hope it goes well for you Nick!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Nick Spoon said:


> In the eyes of this community, should a hobbyist:
> a. Go treatment free and hope the hive survives?
> b. Use "crutches" such as sugar dusting to knock excessive varroa numbers down, and otherwise hope for the best?
> c. Accept that treatment free is not possible with only one hive and to hit it with formic/oxylic/some other treatment?


I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But in New Zealand, with one hive, treatment-free is impossible for very long. The mites have not been there long enough, you have too small a population, and one hive just isn't going to cut it. I strongly recommend against only one hive here in the states, but there, impossible. I'm sorry. To be treatment-free requires a population resource, the greater the population the greater the resource. The greater the population, the greater the chance that they won't _all_ die at once. One hive leaves you no benefits of that concept.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Even small cell will not save you.

Nick I have been trying to give you honest advice from someone who knows and is in NZ.

I regularly see people lose hives cos they took advice from people who want to apply their abstract theories to NZ. I have read the info you posted, understand where your hive is at, and like I said before, if it is not treated it will be dead in a few months.

Because I have seen this over and over, I'm even re-stocking people now, I have had to mentally detach myself somewhat from what people do to their bees, if they insist on not treating and standing by as they die I just leave it to them, they can buy more bees later, most people learn although some repeat the same mistakes.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

EDIT need to add to that post, it applies to NZ not US. In US there are obviously bees that can withstand mites so whole different ball game and all power to those who are treatment free.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

All it would take is a single hive with a VSH queen rated at 75%.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

WLC said:


> All it would take is a single hive with a VSH queen rated at 75%.


assuming year round availability of those queens, which is not the case......


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Around and around it goes, where it stops no body knows....


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

If you want to talk about the odds of Nick getting a VSH queen from Rainbow (open mated).

The median and average is 40% and 44% VSH respectively. 6% are over 80% VSH.

The odds that he'll get over 50% VSH are between 1:3 and 1:4. The odds that he'll score 75% are closer to 1:20.

Of course, if he wants 75%, all he has to do is pay Rae the asking price. She does instrumental insemination.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yup it keeps going around.

Like I said a while back WLC, Nick is welcome to do it according to your advice if he wishes, a hard lesson is best. 

How about we leave this circuitous discussion where it is, and Nick can come back and report his results in a few months.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The odds are new and they're based on rainbows numbers (80 colonies).

They also said that 58% tested over 35% VSH which is a standard benchmark. You also have a 50:50 chance of getting 40% plus VSH.

As I've explained, the research I've read recommends 50% plus, but shows that at the 75% VSH mark, the mite count stays below the critical 5% mark.

I forgot to add something for Nick, a TF beekeeper from New Mexico uses juniper as smoker fuel to help control mites.

Useful to know.


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