# Top Bars, solid floor, mites, and powdered sugar



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

All of my TBH's have screened bottoms. With the one TBH nuc with a solid bottom, I have lost a small colony twice in it. (it is now my swarm trap)

I use the powder sugar shakes through out the year to help control the varroa. You do need the screened bottom board so the excess (and mites) can fall through. That is one reason why I like the screened bottoms, the beetles and mites fall through and are do not reinfect the bees. I have a solid bottom board under the screened one where I keep diatomaceous earth. The stuff that comes in contact with that dust will die (so it must be bee tight).

As for the sugar shakes, I use an oxo powder sugar sifter that I can operate with one hand. With the opposite hand, I pull up a bar and set the "ear" on the edge of the hive so I can tilt it back and shake the entire comb with sugar. Definitely more work that in a Lang where you dust it across the tops, but I think I get really good coverage. You don't want it inside the brood cells or it can kill the larvae. I have quite a few "ghost" bees when I get done but they clean it all up within a day. And I do change out the bottom board afterwards so it doesn't draw ants.

I do have some pictures on my bees FB page on the sugar shakes if you need more info.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

ruthiesbees said:


> All of my TBH's have screened bottoms. With the one TBH nuc with a solid bottom, I have lost a small colony twice in it. (it is now my swarm trap)


Darn. Back to the drawing board (sort of).



ruthiesbees said:


> I use the powder sugar shakes through out the year to help control the varroa. You do need the screened bottom board so the excess (and mites) can fall through. That is one reason why I like the screened bottoms, the beetles and mites fall through and are do not reinfect the bees. I have a solid bottom board under the screened one where I keep diatomaceous earth. The stuff that comes in contact with that dust will die (so it must be bee tight).


 And I had been thinking a film of oil on an insert. But if I put the bottom on a hinge on the bottom board the DA would all fall out so that won't work...



ruthiesbees said:


> As for the sugar shakes, I use an oxo powder sugar sifter that I can operate with one hand. With the opposite hand, I pull up a bar and set the "ear" on the edge of the hive so I can tilt it back and shake the entire comb with sugar. Definitely more work that in a Lang where you dust it across the tops, but I think I get really good coverage. You don't want it inside the brood cells or it can kill the larvae. I have quite a few "ghost" bees when I get done but they clean it all up within a day. And I do change out the bottom board afterwards so it doesn't draw ants.


 I'm not quite seeing the 'ear' thing, I'll have to look at your facebook site when I have access.



ruthiesbees said:


> I do have some pictures on my bees FB page on the sugar shakes if you need more info.


 I'll definitely be looking.

Getting close to being done, and now a purchase and reworking design *SIGH*. 

Any other other thoughts from anyone???


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

there is nothing wrong with powdered sugar. unfortunatly it is about useless for mite control. it is good for sugar shakes to monitor mite levels.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

mathesonequip said:


> there is nothing wrong with powdered sugar. unfortunatly it is about useless for mite control. it is good for sugar shakes to monitor mite levels.


We originally had screened bottoms specifically for powdered sugar dusting and came o the same conclusion. Solid bottoms and young queens with good genetics works for us.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

The "ear" is the end of the bar that hangs over my hive. I set the bar up on end and tip it back. Here is a link to the album on FB I probably should have zoomed the camera out a bit. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1243156899044171.1073741856.687315994628267&type=3

And the powder sugar works well for me for mite control. I also use a brood break in June/July and during that time, I do the powder sugar shake weekly in a hive.


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## Lostfrog (Jun 21, 2014)

I have solid bottoms on mine, but I cut a strip of vinyl, stapled to some cardboard for rigidity to slide under the combs when I powder sugar dust them. It collects the sugar and mites and I go back and remove it a little while later.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

Lostfrog said:


> I have solid bottoms on mine, but I cut a strip of vinyl, stapled to some cardboard for rigidity to slide under the combs when I powder sugar dust them. It collects the sugar and mites and I go back and remove it a little while later.


That's a good idea!


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

i never saw a hollow tee with a screened bottom board, let alone a vinyl liner. maybe some kind of tree in eastern europe??


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## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

The fact is that the bees would prefer a hollow tree and they have been successful for thousands of years. We are trying to duplicate the environment of that hollow tree with modern hives. The screen bottom board is compensation for not having that micro ecosystem at the bottom of the tree cavity. Not so sure about the vinyl liner but story boards also help remove the trash from the bottom of the hive.

Modern hives are just a way to simulate the hollow tree and be able to manage the comb and be able to move the hive without a crane.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I would love to know my mite levels, but there are way more important things for me to do than count mites. Like anything.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

crmauch said:


> But I have the concept that without a SBB the powdered sugar treatment would be mostly useless -- is this correct?


Yes it's correct. 

The concept that *with* a SBB the powdered sugar treatment would be mostly useless, would also be correct.

Because powdered sugar is one of the most useless treatments out there.



ruthiesbees said:


> And the powder sugar works well for me for mite control. I also use a brood break in June/July and during that time, I do the powder sugar shake weekly in a hive.


Doing it weekly, may do the job, if you have bees with a measure of resistance, plus do your brood breaks and whatever, the few extra mites a weekly sugar dust might get may be enough to tip the balance. But it's an incredible amount of work. Which does not matter if it is a hobby and you enjoy doing it. But I could imagine a lot of people if attempting such a regimen would not have your level of committment to never miss a week.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

the further south you are the more you can get away with higher mite levels. many or or most of the advocates of the sugar powder / natural ipm type program live south of the mason dixon line i.e. in the south.


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## threepingsthree (Mar 3, 2014)

I started my top bar hives with screened bottom boards, it was usefull for me to learn some bee behavior, but when I got more than 3 colonies, it was MAY too much work to keep the tray clean and free of Hive beetles and other nasties. You are effectively creating a place that the bees can't patrol and the pests can hide. This winter when I built 35 new colonies, they were all solid bottom boards. I now configure my apiraries to let the bees do all the work they can and I do what they can't


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

threepingsthree said:


> You are effectively creating a place that the bees can't patrol and the pests can hide.


Good comment, that's exactly the same problem I had with my langs when I tried screened bottom boards with a tray, didn't have time to get around and clean them all, wax moth heaven.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

I'm convinced. I'm sticking to a solid bottom board (which makes my construction much easier)!

Chris
4 of my 5 swarm traps/bait hives installed. Possibly going to put up the 5th this weekend.


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## fruitveggirl (Mar 8, 2013)

I started with SBB and switched to solid bottoms. I'm completely treatment-free, which includes not using powdered sugar shakes. I started with bees that have been kept treatment free for many, many years, and I rely on brood breaks/splitting to control mites. I'm not deluded in thinking my bees do not have mites because I know they do. However, they appear to be under control.

BTW, my understanding is that sugar rolls are ok for counting mites (though not as accurate as an alcohol wash). However, sugar shakes, I've heard, are a highly ineffective means of controlling them.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Lostfrog said:


> I have solid bottoms on mine, but I cut a strip of vinyl, stapled to some cardboard for rigidity to slide under the combs when I powder sugar dust them. It collects the sugar and mites and I go back and remove it a little while later.


I like this idea as I can not have a SBB, my hives will be on Cinder Blocks.
Do you have a pic of how you do this ? Do you have a long hole on one side of the hive that you slide in the cardboard ?
And how long do you give them to 'groom' before you remove the cardboard ?


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## dgrc (May 4, 2015)

mathesonequip said:


> i never saw a hollow tee with a screened bottom board, let alone a vinyl liner. maybe some kind of tree in eastern europe??


Lots of them in the forests surrounding Chernobyl. ;-)


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## dgrc (May 4, 2015)

shannonswyatt said:


> I would love to know my mite levels, but there are way more important things for me to do than count mites. Like anything.


I'm not really trying to pick a fight but, of all the things that can harm your bees, mites are the biggest source of harm you have any control over. I encourage you to rethink your priorities.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

dgrc said:


> Lots of them in the forests surrounding Chernobyl. ;-)


...... that would be the ideal place to look for a possible rarety.


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## Lostfrog (Jun 21, 2014)

Tigger19687 said:


> I like this idea as I can not have a SBB, my hives will be on Cinder Blocks.
> Do you have a pic of how you do this ? Do you have a long hole on one side of the hive that you slide in the cardboard ?
> And how long do you give them to 'groom' before you remove the cardboard ?


Sorry Linda, I don't have a picture. I just take a few bars out of the back and slide it gently under the follower board. I might leave it there for an hour or so, depends if I get busy doing something else in the yard as usual. The cardboard it's stapled to is on the thinner side so it's pretty flexible to ease in and out. It helps if you grease the top to keep the debris on it. I read about something like it in one of Phil Chandler's books and figured it couldn't hurt.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

My priorities are just fine, as well as my bees. You do what you want to your bugs.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Ok, that is what I thought you might be doing. Sounds like a good idea that I may do that (when and if I ever get bees). I think they have flexible white plastic board that might be easier to see 'stuff' on.
Thanks again




Lostfrog said:


> Sorry Linda, I don't have a picture. I just take a few bars out of the back and slide it gently under the follower board. I might leave it there for an hour or so, depends if I get busy doing something else in the yard as usual. The cardboard it's stapled to is on the thinner side so it's pretty flexible to ease in and out. It helps if you grease the top to keep the debris on it. I read about something like it in one of Phil Chandler's books and figured it couldn't hurt.


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## Noahsoak (May 12, 2014)

Is there any other treatment for varroa in tbh


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Noahsoak said:


> Is there any other treatment for varroa in tbh


Just about all of them with the exception of those designed to seep through the gaps in the frames of a lang over a prolonged period of time.


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## Noahsoak (May 12, 2014)

ChuckReburn said:


> Just about all of them with the exception of those designed to seep through the gaps in the frames of a lang over a prolonged period of time.


I was contemplating mite away for spring, but sounds like a good way to kill bees. Ventilation problem as well.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, MAQS not so good for TBH's due to the design, essentially MAQS is a fumigant, and doesn't go so well in TBH's due to the amount of vacant space, or space with no comb.


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## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

Chemical free ways are sugar dusting. Culling drone brood. Brood breaks. SBB with or without sticky boards. 

Management options are hygienic bees. Finding bees that can cope with veroa and survive.


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