# What's wrong with my bees



## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

With the staining on the hive my first quess would be nosema along with mites. Jack


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## SwedeBee1970 (Oct 26, 2008)

You'll definitely get more answers here.

The drone mite count sounds high and the rest of the brood I'm not sure.

You mentioned earlier that : "queen has never laid a good brood pattern"

This would suggest that the queen was weak and may not have been superseded, leaving the colony frail to other diseases obviously not related to AFB since you've done thorough testing. With a high mite count, I'd point to CCD (colony collapse disorder). We'll see as the other opinions come in....

What causes the staining & why are they doing it, brooksbeefarm ?


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

Stain on the hive (bee poop) sign of nosema (dysentery).ack


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## will_s (Oct 2, 2008)

I should mention that the staining lasted only a couple weeks after the package was installed.


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## davejw (Aug 9, 2008)

As I read your problem this is what came to me.
One more question to be answered but I believe it sounds like they have been slowly poisoned. Is it common to see "dysentery" with an exposure to insecticide?


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## SwedeBee1970 (Oct 26, 2008)

Doesn't sound like the bees where medicated during their debut, where they ?

And if it's warm enough to open the hives, I'd call it an emergency medicated syrup feeding for the rest of them.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

feed medicated syrup with fumiglan B and as well treat for varroa mites. there is a variety of products out there. I like mite away 2 for the simplicity and you get two mite kills...varroa and trachea.

However, I am of the opinion of checking to see if the hive is viable. Look at the cost to treat and requeen, and would it pay to do this. Are there enough bees and are they young and healthy enough to raise brood. If not, then the answer would be to let it die. I would not combine with a hive since these are sick and your other hives i presume are healthy.

Start again in the spring...

just my two cents


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

a question or two:
1) where did you acquire the packages 
2) did the producer of the packages medicate for nosema.

tecumseh:
at your location staining from nosema would suggest that the nosema was EXTREMELY sever.

once the queen is infected you would never expect her to produce anything that might look like a normal patter. likely the only reason this hive did not replace (superscede) this queen is they were too weak to replace her. from your description this hive is also experiencing some viral type problem (sound to me like deformed wing virus plus a paralysis virus).

might I suggest... the next time you acquire a package some question as to how the hives and packages are treated (medicated) is almost always a good idea.


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## will_s (Oct 2, 2008)

I did not ask the supplier if the bees had been medicated but they came from a mainstream supplier so I imagine they would have.
Now that I think back the area were my bees are kept did get sprayed with poison while they were there to combat those darn argentina ants. My yard is infested with them.


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## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

Varroa


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## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

And how did your other package fare?


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## SwedeBee1970 (Oct 26, 2008)

Ants !

Here is a natural remedy for ant infestations: Queen Anne's Lace weeds. Plant them around the hives. This really works, try it in Spring.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I think we are too quick at times to blame something else like poisoning rather than look in the mirror.
My thoughts on this are this hive was weak and the length of time waiting to treat contributed to the failing of this hive.
I am not saying CCd, but rather to little to late. In came the varroa, and then the nosema, and now deformed wing virus and that other one Tecumseh mentioned.

As a beekeeper, in this day and age, we must be proactive in our disease monitoring. It is something we must be on top of at all times. Monitor monitor and then monitor again. We also need to monitor pre/mid/post treatments to ensure the treatments are working.

When we accomplish monitoring regularly, we can see and know when the hive is in trouble. Then and only then can we begin to look at posioning because of sprays as a reason for our hives being in trouble because we have the proof to say..."they were healthy at this point....this is where they stood at this time..."

Now you must decide if this hive is viable enough to treat or to let it die, and not combine with your healthy hive.
Since this hive is so sick, and if you have another hive, there is a good chance robbing has begun, so now the diseases are spreading. Might be time to look at getting proactive with the healthy hives to keep them healthy. Otherwise you will lose them all

As a side note, our university recommends when monitoring to monitor 15% of the hives in each yard...some weak, some strong, some medium to get an accurate reading on each yard


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I read as far as "Deformed wings" and quit reading. That's "deformed wing virus" and those bees are carrying signs that say DOWN WITH MITES. The poor pattern could be due to the bees cleaning out cells that had mites. PMS (Parasitic mite syndrome) can mimic most diseases. All dead bees stink. Logically the brood that is left is full of mites. Throw that frame away and treat the adults with oxalic acid drench. Then at least you have a fresh start. Feed and give pollen patty.

Next year put a cup of sugar in with the package of bees and roll them around and let them sit for 5 mins. It gets rid of the phoretic (passenger) mites. 

...and shut up about your flowers blooming! 

dickm


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## will_s (Oct 2, 2008)

Based on what your telling me I am going to research the different kinds of treatments, treat and then requeen when they become available.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

will s... 

1) typically pesticide poisonings will be accompanied by large number of dead bee at the front door and most times on the bottom board in numbers large enough you would have had difficulties not noticing them.

2) a lot of package producer will treat the queen rearing nuc for nosema but not the worker bees in the package. some do of course add fumidil to that small container which comes with the package but not all. this would be the first bit of information I would want to know in regards to a package.

3) the producers of packages also may or maynot treat for varroa. this would be the second bit of information I would want to know. if he does you can almost be certain that the bees in the package have little resistance to varroa. the queen... well maybe yes and maybe no. initial state of infestation would be important but you will also need to monitor constantly. treat if it become necessary. there are a lot of options for treatment from soft to harsh.

casually I suspect the initial problem with the package was #2 and #3 naturally followed.


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## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

WILLS 
How did your other package do? You said you started a couple.


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## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

And the mites whacked your hive. Trained assassins they can bee. Might I suggest ninja bees from this point forward?


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## will_s (Oct 2, 2008)

^my other hive is doing ok I think I haven't treated for anything but they always seemed more active, never had any staining. They built up 2.5 mediums from there introduction. i was starting to get more dead beas around the same time as the other hive but I think it was just because the weather finally started to cool down and got some rain. The dead were quickly cleaned up thou as soon as it was warm enough. 

I decided to see what the bottom board looked like on the sick hive and it reeinforced your guys's thoughts. Pobably a couple hundred dead mites from half a medium of bees. Last time it was cleaned was on the 13th dec. Two days ago, you think I have a mite problem lol. 
Is there any product that I can buy from a store for these buggers. Shipping always seems to take close to two weeks when it comes to bee supplies. I am going to check my other hives bottom board now.


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

will_s

I learned about our dearth with my first hive in September when I found only two frames of stores in two deeps. I loaded the top feeder and planned for a new package in spring.

Surprise, surprise not only did they make it, but swarmed twice in a week to give me hive no 2. That was the only package (or queen) I ever bought and it created eight hives and two failed nucs. One swarm I put in a TBH and now I'm hoping it becomes a base for many more.

If it was mine, I'd do what you did and now wait till spring. The queen concerns me though.

If it doesn't make it, consider a queenless split from your other hives for spring instead of a package. Since your bees are already accustomed to your location, you may have better luck. Queenless splits may reduce swarming, add genetic diversity and don't cost anything.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

Will_S, looks like you got alot of info from beekeepers in different parts of the country. It may cost you more than the hive is worth to save it,but in doing so you will learn what to look for and what to do the next time it happens. Like someone said you could feed med. syrup and use a mite treatment to try to save the bees and requeen as soon as you can, With the weather you have in Cal. you probably can do this. Here in SW Mo. the hive in question would be dead in two weeks or less, like this mourning the temp. 18 deg. here so trying to feed syrup would be out of the question.What i'm trying to say is, alot depends on were you live and the weather that tells you what you can or can't do. Good luck Jack


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## will_s (Oct 2, 2008)

Here is an update.
Both hives died in december, I was amazed at how fast the stronger hive dwindled and perished. 
The good news is that I just did a cutout from a aging hive which belonged to one of my moms friends. The bees came with the property when it was bought about 15 years ago and was never touched, owners didn't care for bees. Supposedly they have swarmed every year and aren't to aggressive. 
Procurring the bees was harder than I thought it would be since al the wood was rotten with interconnected frames, I had never seen so much propolis either. They got pretty agressive too and I received about 12 stings with a full suit on. 
So I have a couple questions I need help on. I live in a AHB zone and I am concerned that once this hive gets big it will show any AHB traits since in the past it was always kept to a deep and medium box. Agressiveness doesn't bother me but AHb's are to dangerous to keep. Should I requeen and loose these locally adapted survivors to be sure I don't have AHBs in my yard. Second how many splits can be made from this hive when the flow comes because it is just around the corner and do you think I should buy queens for them or let them make there own.

So all in all I am pretty happy with my first year at beekeeping and am glad I don't have to wait for a package to arrive after the necter fow is finished,


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I did four splits one day from a strong hive this past season, and all built up well before season's end. Why not do four splits, with two "store-bought" queens, leave the existing queen in one, and let the other split raise their own? Or let the two splits raise their own? then you can compare how the original bees do compared to the store-bought queens. Just a thought.
Regards,
Steven


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