# I just remembered why I switched to top bar hives!



## shannonswyatt

No doubt. A single 10 frame deep box with frames and foundation cost around $50 or more once you add tax or shipping (which could be way higher!). And then I have to put them together.

I can make a full size TBH for less than that, and I can make a TBH really quick.


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## rookie2531

shannonswyatt said:


> No doubt. A single 10 frame deep box with frames and foundation cost around $50 or more once you add tax or shipping (which could be way higher!). And then I have to put them together.
> 
> I can make a full size TBH for less than that, and I can make a TBH really quick.



I can make a full lang. Hive with SBB and tinned tel. Cover with supers and frames, the works for around 50 bucks. Foundation less of course. Forget buying, unless you have money and no time.


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## odfrank

Your expandable frame hive will outproduce your topbar hive easily overcoming the cost of frames with the income from substantially more honey produced with less swarming.


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## Colino

odfrank said:


> Your expandable frame hive will outproduce your topbar hive easily overcoming the cost of frames with the income from substantially more honey produced with less swarming.


I was thinking along the same lines odfrank. All that crush and strain comb costs big time in honey. Whereas those drawn Langstroth frames with foundation can be harvested more than once. My girls built me 25 frames of beautiful comb this year in my honey supers. Clean used drawn comb are worth $4.00 each up here.
Colino


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## shannonswyatt

rookie2531 said:


> I can make a full lang. Hive with SBB and tinned tel. Cover with supers and frames, the works for around 50 bucks. Foundation less of course. Forget buying, unless you have money and no time.


True dat, but I can make a top bar hive faster than making a Lang. Too many different cuts. A lot more work to make them than TBHs.


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## shannonswyatt

odfrank said:


> Your expandable frame hive will outproduce your topbar hive easily overcoming the cost of frames with the income from substantially more honey produced with less swarming.


I got more honey off my TBHs this year than my langs. YMMV


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## Charlie B

odfrank said:


> Your expandable frame hive will outproduce your topbar hive easily overcoming the cost of frames with the income from substantially more honey produced with less swarming.


Are you disrespecting TBH?


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## shannonswyatt

I thought Frank had saw the light when he built his TBH's and Warre hives in the spring.


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## Charlie B

shannonswyatt said:


> I thought Frank had saw the light when he built his TBH's and Warre hives in the spring.


I had a really nice Warre and TBH for him for practically nothing in cost and all he could do was criticize. I think he's got multiple personalities, none of which you would want to meet!


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## ruthiesbees

shannonswyatt said:


> I got more honey off my TBHs this year than my langs. YMMV


Did you harvest the TBH combs all at one time, or just steal one each week or two? I left mine on too long and the bees ended up eating the honey in August (which is fine by me, but I would have liked a small jar). My plan next year is to see if I can harvest a bar once a week during the main season. I like to try all the different flavors.


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## odfrank

shannonswyatt said:


> I thought Frank had saw the light when he built his TBH's and Warre hives in the spring.


Sorry, this years comparison did not sell me on Topbars. At one site, Palo Alto CA: 

Seven hives at one site. Two overwintered Langs from swarms. Two overwintered Lang nucs, purchased queens, one Koehnen package. That is five langs. Production: 429 lbs. on mostly foundation in the honey supers. 86lb. average. Several swarms.

One overwintered Topbar from swarm, re-established new Warre from swarm. Combined topbar production: 69 lbs. 34lb average, the topbar swarmed. 

So that is 2.5 times the honey production, on a similar mix of bees, for the Langstroth hives, and many supers of drawn comb leftover. The topbar combs were crushed and the hives have to start from scratch building combs next season. 

I am thankful that I started beekeeping 45 years ago when there was no internet and no up and coming gurus to misguide me down the path of antiquated topbar beekeeping. I use a smartphone and computer for communication, I use a gas combustion vehicle for transport, both modern technology less than 100 years old. I use mostly framed hives, 165 year old technology. I will continue to report on this apiary that the first years results indicate that framed hives more than doubled production over the topbar hives. And the framed hives required no weekly maintenance to make sure they did not make wild comb. The topbar hive went wild and should have been watched carefully to avoid that. 

I see no reason to revert to antique technology in the apiary.


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## shannonswyatt

True, I would say that if the goal is to optimize honey production then Langs are the best way to go. They remind me of the companies that Apple uses to produce iPhones in China. 

Its a hobby for me. I'm not looking to produce a ton of honey, but I do enjoy the stuff I pull. Costs for the hives to me do mean something though. In a few years I may run more Langs if I can find a decent location for an out yard, and then I would want to sell some honey. I've pushed the limit on how many hives I can legally have in my yard, fortunately my neighbors don't mind. I would love to be able to put all the Langs there and just have TBHs and maybe some nucs in my yard. 

Ruthie, not sure if the dearth was as bad for you as for us, but I pulled mid-dearth, and left a lot in the hives that I pulled from. I didn't want to have to worry about feeding the hives I robbed. We had a horrible fall, I think most of the state did. Too much rain. My Langs were very low going into the fall, and I feed them a bunch to get them to acceptable winter weight. My TBHs did much better for some reason (maybe they were robbing the langs!)

While the idea of pulling a bar at a time seems great, it does mean that you have to prep and clean up each time you process. I had more than enough honey in my closets for a year before I pulled so I had no reason to pull a bar at a time.


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## odfrank

Charlie B said:


> I had a really nice Warre and TBH for him for practically nothing in cost and all he could do was criticize. I think he's got multiple personalities, none of which you would want to meet!


Look at this Warre Charlie tried to hoodwink me with. Notice how the topbars do not have a rabetted frame rest, but rather a cleat they rest on. This would have made it very difficult to remove the topbars with the comb attached. I was ready to buy this from him until I studied the pictures more and noticed this idiocy. It WAS worth practically nothing Charlie, you are right. One of you multiple personalities is THIEF. The color sucked also.


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## dudelt

I would agree for the most part that you will get more honey from a Lang than the typical top bar hive. However, I am NOT a commercial producer and never will be. I have a 40 hour a week job already, 11 kids, 7 grandchildren and plenty of property to be taking care of. I don't mind the additional work to be sure the combs are straight initially because the walk to the apiary is 28 seconds from my front door, not in an out yard 65 miles away. My biggest concern is having enough hives to overwinter, live with the losses and replace them, and be able to get some honey. Best of all, I find the bees in the top bar hives to be much gentler than those in Langs. 

Odfrank, since you mentioned modern technology, I am looking for some ultra-modern tech for beekeeping. I want a computerized hive that has scanners and lasers to zap SHB, varroa, wax moths and robbers when they come to my hives. It should also automatically pull the frames when full, shake off the bees and extract and bottle. But alas, I am really cheap and if it was more than $10.00 per hive I would probably pass!


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## msscha

ruthiesbees said:


> I left mine on too long and the bees ended up eating the honey in August (which is fine by me, but I would have liked a small jar). My plan next year is to see if I can harvest a bar once a week during the main season. I like to try all the different flavors.


As a first year beekeeper, I was told not to harvest anything, so I haven't...but if the bees fill another couple of bars with honey, especially the loquat that's now blooming, then I might rob a bar! I am personally into the beeswax more than the honey...I look forward to giving honey as gifts, but am really anticipating the fun of making candles, lip balms, and lotions.


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## Delta Bay

If you want more honey run more hives. 4 TBH's will cost about the same as 1 Lang. 20lbs a hive will get you 80lbs with no boxes to store or move here and there.


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## dsegrest

Been thinking about a warre or top-bar hive. I think you top-bar people have talked me into sticking with Langs


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## shannonswyatt

I think everyone that has bees should give them a try. It is interesting, and you can easily make an observation hive to see what is going on in the hive.


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## Delta Bay

Just to ad to my previous post. The 4 TBH's are starter from one strong over wintered colony in early spring.


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## dudelt

dsegrest said:


> Been thinking about a warre or top-bar hive. I think you top-bar people have talked me into sticking with Langs


Dsegrest, I would tell you the exact opposite. Yes, the Lang has many advantages, which is why it is almost universally the choice for commercial producers. The top bar hive has numerous advantages over the Lang as well. Some are unique to my situation but you should be able to relate. First is storage. At the end of the year, the TB needs no storage space. All those boxes, frames and extractors need to be stored somewhere. They need to be clean or you will have plenty of vermin. Who wants honey supers that have wax moth worms or rat urine on them? With a TB it is almost impossible to "roll" your queen. There are no frames to crush her with and I have NEVER had a queen walk on a bar during an inspection. When replacing a 40 LB box back on a booming hive, how many bees do you usually crush? You will often kill a few in a TB when replacing the bars but not as many as with a Lang. With a TB there is no heavy lifting, when you open the hive there is a much smaller defense response from the hive, they are easy to add windows in them for an observation hive, and many other reasons. 

In all, it is a personal choice based on your reasons for having the hive. You will learn a lot having one and may find you just love it. For me, Langs are a means to an end, honey production. Top bar hives are pure enjoyment.


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## Jake Hetterick

Yea but that is with five top bars and five lang or just one top bar and 5 langs


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## BobRagsdale

dudelt said:


> Top bar hives are pure enjoyment.


Well said sir. Well said.


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## Oldtimer

msscha said:


> As a first year beekeeper, I was told not to harvest anything, so I haven't...


Bad advice, TBH or Lang regardless. If the bees have stored more than they need for winter you can harvest. Whatever year it is.

What can happen in a TBH is it needs a little more management to get a crop harvested. Can't fully discuss in one post as books have been written on the subject, but basically, in a Lang, it can be harvested as little as one time per year, because the bees will happily store honey overhead as more boxes are added. But in a TBH the bees have to store honey by building more combs out to the side. It can take about all the bees want to build to get enough stored for winter, after that they stop, or swarm. So a TBH should be harvested a little at a time throughout the season to encourage the bees to store more rather than swarm, & still end up with enough for winter. Don't need to get too worried about overharvesting, in fall if it's looking like the bees do not have enough for winter, they can always be fed syrup (while the weather is still warm enough for comb building so they can store it), until they have sufficient stores for winter. If someone does not agree with feeding syrup, then just harvest more carefully.


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## Charlie B

Guys I don't mean any disrespect but I just don't get it. Langs are so much easier. Just had two TBH's donated to us and I had to give them to one of the people I'm mentoring. You have to do crush and strain, as far as I can see you can't do much in the way of swarm prevention and you can't really move them to better foraging when you need to.
WTF?:scratch:


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## Jake Hetterick

So you just need to take and payetention when useing top bar hives and why is that I mean I see you can put more Boxs on the langs but what if you build your top bar with some bars with foundation on them and some with out would that help


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## ksr004

Charlie B said:


> Guys I don't mean any disrespect but I just don't get it. Langs are so much easier. Just had two TBH's donated to us and I had to give them to one of the people I'm mentoring. You have to do crush and strain, as far as I can see you can't do much in the way of swarm prevention and you can't really move them to better foraging when you need to.
> WTF?:scratch:


Undergo two back surgeries and come back and tell me if Langs are easier.


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## Jake Hetterick

Yea they are alot heavier aren't they is that because of the amount of honey or just the material used in building them


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## ksr004

Probably both, but some of us just don't have a option.


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## Jake Hetterick

But I mean if you put just plan frames in a Lang it would take just about the same time to make honey as a top bar right


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## Sovek

My Long Lang is a compromise actually. I like beekeeping but can't fathom working 50+ hives a week, each with multiple 50+ lb boxes of bees. I don't particularly enjoy trying to put frames back together but since I'm going to be selling over-wintered nucs in a few years, I go with frames just so folks can put them into their hive without any fuss.

That said, I'm building my hive myself and so far I only have $12.50 for 10 of the frames (already have another 10) and another $6.25 for the rest of the frames (25 total). Top and bottoms will be made out of plywood (a sheet at about $25 can make at least two hives so thats $12.50 for the top and bottom) and the sides will be made out of a 1x10 with square dowels on top of the box to make a poor mans rabbet. I expect total cost to be less than that of going to my local beek store (prices comparable to online, without the cost of shipping) and buying a hive body, top, bottom, and 10 frames.

It isnt so much the type of hive that makes it expensive (I've seen complete TBH for upwards of $450) as how much time you are going to put into it and what tools are at your disposal.


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## BobRagsdale

Charlie B said:


> I just don't get it. Langs are so much easier.


Yes...depending on your goals. If you want to produce as much honey as possible, move hives frequently, pollinate crops, etc., then yes, Langs are probably the preferred hive.

If you (like me) want to enjoy your bees, observe how colonies grow, raise queens, produce cut-comb honey without special equipment, dive into the broodnest without having to remove one or more boxes first, and do it all very cheaply, then top-bars are superb. 

Personally I find all the frames, foundation, boxes, feeders and other specialized equipment associated with Langs costly and frustrating, and I don't enjoy working them. I do like being able to just walk up to a top bar, peek in, and do my work. Top-bar hives align well with what I want out of beekeeping.


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## Jake Hetterick

I think we are going to get some of the langs but don't know yet


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## Cabin

OK I may be wrong but I remember reading that the top bars were developed in the 1970 somewhere in Canada to help developing countries transition from kill harvesting to removable frames. So it seems that the top bar people are simply trying the NEWEST method of bee keeping. All new ideas will have kinks that need to be worked out. Some new ideas do not pan out. time will tell.


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## Sovek

TBH have been around for centuries, possibly even a millenia or longer. The method they are being employed now probably far different than what was around a couple centuries ago, but TBH are not new. 

The current style was designed in 1965, yes, but concrete evidence shows TBH were used back in the 1650s, possibly even earlier than that.


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## Jake Hetterick

So they where beekeeper s in the 1650s well we might try to build some to if we don't bye any


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## JakeDatc

Charlie B said:


> Guys I don't mean any disrespect but I just don't get it. Langs are so much easier. Just had two TBH's donated to us and I had to give them to one of the people I'm mentoring. You have to do crush and strain, as far as I can see you can't do much in the way of swarm prevention and you can't really move them to better foraging when you need to.
> WTF?:scratch:


Have you tried one? 

you do have to do crush and strain.. which requires a strainer and a bucket.. vs a few hundred dollar extractor. for a few hives it is not difficult. 

Yes you can do swarm prevention. you put empty bars into the broodnest, harvest honey along the way. do a split then maybe combine it back later for winter.. 

there are plenty of ways to keep bees in a box. giving narrow minded advice is why people are afraid of top bars.. they make it seem WAY harder than it is.

I built a 100% cedar hive 4' long for $60 and was way easier than building lang boxes and frames (which i also did). I wish i had more space here for one.. i may have to think harder about it.


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## Charlie B

BobRagsdale said:


> Yes...depending on your goals. If you want to produce as much honey as possible, move hives frequently, pollinate crops, etc., then yes, Langs are probably the preferred hive.
> 
> If you (like me) want to enjoy your bees, observe how colonies grow, raise queens, produce cut-comb honey without special equipment, dive into the broodnest without having to remove one or more boxes first, and do it all very cheaply......


But Bob, Just because I produce honey doesn't mean I can't enjoy my bees, watch them grow and raise queens with Langs. All you need to produce cut comb is to place foundationless frames in your supers. I've done it, (pretty easy) but it's not my primary goal. 

Now I'll agree you can't dive into the brood nest without removing supers but I don't think that's a big deal.

Hey, whatever you like is fine and if you enjoy it then I think that's great.


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## ksr004

I'll probably get burned for this, but I've noticed over the last several months that the top bar hive section is turning into a place for those that don't like top bar hives to come in and hate on us that do enjoy them.


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## JakeDatc

Jake Hetterick said:


> Yea they are alot heavier aren't they is that because of the amount of honey or just the material used in building them


Langs are involve more lifting because you put multiple boxes on each other. Top bar you go across and are only moving 1 bar at a time regardless of where in the hive you want to look. To look in a broodnest of a 3 deep hive then you're pulling off 2 large boxes, which for some people is not an option or wanted effort.



ksr004 said:


> I'll probably get burned for this, but I've noticed over the last several months that the top bar hive section is turning into a place for those that don't like top bar hives to come in and hate on us that do enjoy them.


Usually by people who have never used them or have the desire to. It is like telling people that motorcycles are bad because you can't hold 2 kids in car seats.... well no kidding but they are still viable for some people.


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## Charlie B

Jake,

I had two donated to me and I gave them to a keeper I'm mentoring. I helped him go through both of them several weeks ago and I have to say it was like going back in time. He's doing crush and strain now in my honey house and I just shake my head but hey, whatever floats your boat! He loves it but can't give me a reason why.

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I'll just shut up now.


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## odfrank

Charlie B;1216219you can't really move them to better foraging when you need to.WTF?:scratch:[/QUOTE said:


> I moved one, and a Warre and two Langs a few miles yesterday. It was a Beethinking model that lifted off it's stand. Only way to move it is two man carry, or on a flat furniture dolly. It wasn't too heavy so my crew carried it several hundred feet. I didn't check how they tied it down, but it survived the trip and looking through the window I saw no dropped combs. Langs and Warre were easy to carry with my hive lifter. My main complaint is the need to monitor it closely while it draws out combs, to watch for cross combing. For harvest, I had to build a matching mini hive to carry the crop back to the extracting room, so that story about not having to store any boxes is BS. It is a mess and a robber fest to harvest in the field. The windows are the only convenience I see over a Lang. And low cost of construction if one builds it oneself. The factory ones are as expensive as a Langstroth. Not a fan of topbar hives, but to each his own.


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## JakeDatc

You are trashing a system without having used it. Sorry but giving one away and doing one inspection is not using one. Take off the blinders and treat them like your own bees and give them the best chance in the hive they are in. setting yourself up to fail before you even open them up. 

If he likes it then he doesn't have to give you a reason. Let him enjoy the bees for any reason there is. 

Crush and strain for 2 hives is not hard and i'd even say less work than extracting for a fraction of the cost. 

you don't have to buy extractor, store extractor, clean extractor, buy extra frames, buy extra supers , store frames/supers

Think more creatively and see the positives instead of your perceived negatives and you'll do a much better job at being a mentor. There are many many ways to do things in all aspects of life.

Frank, if you only have 1-2 hives you can just cut the comb off the bar into a bucket w/ lid and replace it right away. Or have a few spare bars around to swap them out. 

I bet you could mount top bars onto a 2 way pallet and move them like Langs too.


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## Charlie B

Jake,

Asking why you like something because you don't get it is not exactly trashing it. I'm just curious. Those Top Bar bees will be very well taken care of.


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## JakeDatc

you said that they are more difficult than langs without having used it. You say that honey harvest is harder without doing it. You say you cannot prevent swarming without using one. 

They are not for everyone and you seem to be in that category, which is fine but contributing to the noise with false statements isn't useful. And since Top bars are fairly popular with hobbiest beekeepers perhaps the VP of San Fran beekeepers should learn more about them.


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## clyderoad

JakeDatc said:


> you said that they are more difficult than langs without having used it. You say that honey harvest is harder without doing it. You say you cannot prevent swarming without using one.
> 
> They are not for everyone and you seem to be in that category, which is fine but contributing to the noise with false statements isn't useful. And since Top bars are fairly popular with hobbiest beekeepers perhaps the VP of San Fran beekeepers should learn more about them.


I have kept top bar hives, up until 2 years ago. 
I won't get in the middle of your debate with the roof top VP but will say that top bar hives are much more labor intensive than Langs.
When hive numbers increase the labor intensity required for TBH's becomes readily apparent.
There are numerous other limitations with using the TB hive on a large scale that relegates them to being best used in a few hive garden apiary. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Have you ever worked a 20, or 40... or more, hive Lang apiary and enjoyed the effiency of design?


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## Jake Hetterick

I think it would be cool to see the hive grow into what it can hold in honey and brood


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## JakeDatc

I didn't say they were best for larger operations. I said they were good for hobbyist with a few hives. Which is what his friend is doing that he gave the top bar hives to. There are larger operations of top bar hives.. Sam Comfort being the most recognized (and Michael bush but he does a mix i believe) I have also seen a guy who does migration with top bars but i can't find the website now. 

We have one Top bar at my gf's house and a lang at mine.. I have space for another lang and maybe a top bar but my small deck/balcony area might not be large enough for one. I do know that it only took a few hours to build her top bar hive and it took many more hours to make the lang boxes and frames. Having more time than $ frames are cheap but labor intensive.

and this is the Top Bar forum... if you don't like them... there are other places to post


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## clyderoad

Oh, I was unaware that one had to be passionate about TBH's to join a discussion here. Sorry.


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## JakeDatc

you don't have to be passionate... but why would people bring so much negativity to a forum of people trying to discuss one aspect when there are plenty of others for Langs and commercial beekeeping on the forum to talk about lang stuff? 

It is like a road biker going into a mtn bike forum and saying well Mtn bikes suck on pavement. well, yea? so what we are talking about riding on dirt here... so what? Not every beekeeper is in it for hundreds of gallons of honey and 50 hives. 

The negative attitudes towards Top Bars is pretty depressing around here and unwelcoming to new beekeepers who just want a way into the hobby. Top bars may not be great at everything but they do get you a hive and allow you to work with the bees and learn what is going on. Some may say that is a lot of work but getting into the hive is how you learn to see things. Perhaps those who have been doing it for a while forget what it is like when you are new.


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## ksr004

Well said Jake.


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## clyderoad

JakeDatc said:


> you don't have to be passionate... but why would people bring so much negativity to a forum of people trying to discuss one aspect when there are plenty of others for Langs and commercial beekeeping on the forum to talk about lang stuff?
> 
> It is like a road biker going into a mtn bike forum and saying well Mtn bikes suck on pavement. well, yea? so what we are talking about riding on dirt here... so what? Not every beekeeper is in it for hundreds of gallons of honey and 50 hives.
> 
> The negative attitudes towards Top Bars is pretty depressing around here and unwelcoming to new beekeepers who just want a way into the hobby. Top bars may not be great at everything but they do get you a hive and allow you to work with the bees and learn what is going on. Some may say that is a lot of work but getting into the hive is how you learn to see things. Perhaps those who have been doing it for a while forget what it is like when you are new.


Maybe the negativity you are refering to is just the recounting of the COMPLETE TBHive story, and you don't care to hear that. 
If TBhives are good for a few hives in the yard and cheaper way for folks to have bees, than it should be left at that. 
But you'll never convince me that crush and strain, hive manipulations , honey production, feeding, split offs, swarm prevention and moving hives is "less work" with a TBhive than it is with a Lang. I've done it and I know better.

Do a service to those new beekeepers and give them both sides of the story, and tell them not to believe everything they read in the books.
Good luck.


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## Oldtimer

dudelt said:


> For me, Langs are a means to an end, honey production. Top bar hives are pure enjoyment.


In my opinion this is the correct view.

As an ex commercial beekeeper, my training was to get the most amount of honey, or whatever other product, for the least amount of work.

When TBH's started showing up in my country I thought it was the most ridiculous idea ever. However people started ordering bees from me to put into TBH's, I'm retired and only sell bees locally so some of these people live close plus they were new so to make sure there were no screw ups I mostly went & installed the bees myself. This included one long time friend who lives just down the street so I am able to wander over and help him and see the progress of the bees they do well, can't stop them swarming though.

TBH's are often presented as if they are a whole different thing from langs, and indeed as they are home built I have found some of them to have design flaws and recommended changes be made before I put the bees in. But that being done I've been pleasantly surprised, the bees are actually no different they behave exactly the same, bees are bees. I've had no trouble at all helping people run their TBH's and getting maximum production the hive design will permit.

For some people I have recommended TBH's, for example a middle aged woman who also is a long time friend who wants a back yard hive, I loaned her a Lang but she just couldn't deal with the weight of the honey & ended up me having to be there every time she opened the hive. So I recommended a top bar hive and she manages that fine. The year she had the Lang she got better than 200 lb's honey, now with the TBH she just gets a few Lb's but it's all she needs to eat plus give an occasional small jar to friends she doesn't need my help.

When Langstroths were first designed, it was a huge advance at the time, and that's why the design has not only stuck, but now outnumbers other designs by thousands to one. But for hobby beekeepers, there may be reasons to use other designs and as it's a hobby, for enjoyment, that's fine, TBH's can fill a certain need.


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## deknow

OT...that is an excellent post.

No one thinks that someone with a few chickens in their backyard need use a miniaturized industrial chicken operation with clipped beaks, confined hens, etc.


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## Oldtimer

Wow, I got an Excellent from Deknow! Must be doing something right!


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## JakeDatc

plenty of people to tell them they are the scourge of the earth and will fail if they even try.


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## deknow

Oldtimer said:


> Wow, I got an Excellent from Deknow! Must be doing something right!


I usually get the opposite reaction. Must be something about the water swirling down the drain the wrong way ;p


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## Rader Sidetrack

>> ;p

On Beesource, the "code" for smileys starts with a colon, not semicolon. So using 'colon'p gives us this >


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## ruthiesbees

JakeDatc said:


> I didn't say they were best for larger operations. I said they were good for hobbyist with a few hives. Which is what his friend is doing that he gave the top bar hives to. There are larger operations of top bar hives.. Sam Comfort being the most recognized (and Michael bush but he does a mix i believe) I have also seen a guy who does migration with top bars but i can't find the website now.


Wyatt Mangum in NC/VA does migratory pollination with top bar hives http://www.tbhsbywam.com/


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## shannonswyatt

Wyatt does migratory pollination, but he does it as a side liner. You really can't call it a commercial operation. A decent portion of his book talks about the methods he uses specific to his operation. His stands are the height of the basically the truck bed and they are laid out in a way that makes it easy for him to backup into them and load them in a pickup. This works fine for maybe 6 hives in a pickup, but that isn't in the class of someone with 18 wheelers headed around the country. This isn't meant to be a knock to WAM, but I don't want people to think you can compare his side line operation to the Hackenbergs or some other nationwide pollination operation.


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## Charlie B

JakeDatc said:


> you said that they are more difficult than langs without having used it. You say that honey harvest is harder without doing it. You say you cannot prevent swarming without using one.
> 
> They are not for everyone and you seem to be in that category, which is fine but contributing to the noise with false statements isn't useful. And since Top bars are fairly popular with hobbiest beekeepers perhaps the VP of San Fran beekeepers should learn more about them.


There's nothing false about what I said. Crush and strain is harder compared to placing my lang frames bulging with honey into my Maxant 3100p and spinning. 








Swarm prevention: We have several TBH keepers in our club who have been at it for 20 years who tell me, "you just have to let them swarm". They say there's no way you can open the brood nest enough to keep them from swarming in a TBH.

How long have you been keeping TBH's Jake? You can't tell from your profile. Man up and tell us how long you've been beekeeping. 

I'm not against TBH, Warre Hives or any other kind of hives but don't take the attitude that you're better that everyone else because you have a TBH and are far superior than all those greedy bastard Lang keeps who just want honey and could care less about bees. 

I love my bees. I talk to them every time I see them and I thank them for the bounty they give me. God bless Reverend Langstroth for discovering bee space and making it a lot less stressful for bees to be managed by humans.


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## dudelt

I think all beekeepers should agree that whether it is a Lang, top bar, Warre or whatever hive beekeeping is just plain FUN! All of us have different reasons for beekeeping. I will keep between 3 - 10 hives max in any given year. I will never sell more than $200 of honey in any year and even then only to close friends. What I don't use, goes to the local food bank and they really appreciate it. For me, why would I want an extractor? I can crush 8 medium frames or bars from a TBH in a couple of minutes, leave it overnight in the warming box to drip through the strainer and I have honey. Minimal clean up minimal time spent. If I have more to do, start over. I would never claim a TBH is a good choice for a commercial operation. It is not. But for a hobbyist, especially a newbie, it is a great way to go. Why for a newbie? Why recommend a newbie spend $300 - $500 (including the cost of the package or nuc) on a hobby that they might discover they hate? Wouldn't $150 and a couple of hours of effort building the hive be a better option for them? Finally, (this is not meant to be taken seriously and is meant in the best possible humor) those of you really dislike top bar hives, what are you doing in this forum any ways?


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## Michael Bush

>There's nothing false about what I said. Crush and strain is harder compared to placing my lang frames bulging with honey into my Maxant 3100p and spinning. 

Maybe this is true for you. Maybe you're not very experienced at crush and strain. I can crush and strain faster than I can extract any day of the week. Not that I don't extract. I have an extractor and I like having drawn comb, but I did crush and strain for 26 years and am quite good at it...

>They say there's no way you can open the brood nest enough to keep them from swarming in a TBH.

And yet I do keep them from swarming whenever I take the time to do it.


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## Charlie B

Michael Bush said:


> >There's nothing false about what I said. Crush and strain is harder compared to placing my lang frames bulging with honey into my Maxant 3100p and spinning.
> 
> I can crush and strain faster than I can extract any day of the week. Not that I don't extract. I have an extractor and I like having drawn comb, but I did crush and strain for 26 years and am quite good at it...


I'm sure that's why all the commercial honey producers use crush and strain because it's so much faster than extracting.

I suppose you extract when you have extra time on your hands.

And as you eluded to, never mind that the bees have to rebuild all the comb, that's better than just placing freshly extracted frames back into the hive and allow the bees to fill them back up again. I suppose the bees have extra time on there hands as well.


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## Michael Bush

>I'm sure that's why all the commercial honey producers use crush and strain because it's so much faster than extracting.

They do it because it makes more honey.

>I suppose you extract when you have extra time on your hands.

Pretty much, but I probably should do it more often.

>And as you eluded to, never mind that the bees have to rebuild all the comb, that's better than just placing freshly extracted frames back into the hive and allow the bees to fill them back up again. I suppose the bees have extra time on there hands as well.

The bees certainly don't seem to mind building comb. It's what they do. But having a place to put the nectar during a flow makes a lot more honey because of time. If we could just train the bees to build comb BEFORE the flow and wait to fill it UNTIL the flow... then I don't think it would matter at all.


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## shannonswyatt




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## clyderoad

Michael Bush said:


> Maybe you're not very experienced at crush and strain. I can crush and strain faster than I can extract any day of the week. Not that I don't extract.


I can too, for 1 comb of honey crush and strain is faster.


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## deknow

clyderoad said:


> I can too, for 1 comb of honey crush and strain is faster.


...and doesn't require an $800 extractor, no matter how many frames or combs.


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## clyderoad

deknow said:


> ...and doesn't require an $800 extractor, no matter how many frames or combs.


for you crush and stain guys, I'd like to know how you get the honey to drain from the crushed comb in a reasonable amount of time (say a day)? I ask because my cappings take quite some time to drain so I can recover most of the honey in them.


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## ruthiesbees

clyderoad said:


> for you crush and stain guys, I'd like to know how you get the honey to drain from the crushed comb in a reasonable amount of time (say a day)? I ask because my cappings take quite some time to drain so I can recover most of the honey in them.


I crush and strain a comb at a time, so I can enjoy the unique flavor of each. The crushed comb is poured into a plastic kitchen strainer that holds probably 4 cups. That drains into a 4 cup measuring cup and is left on the counter overnight. In a few hours, and certainly by morning, it's all drained through. I think maybe my strainer has larger holes than the metal sieves I see other people using. 

I will still stir up the wax to help a few more drips of honey go through.


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## Oldtimer

Ruth hit the nail on the head. Crush and strain may be more efficient for someone with a small amount of honey, and not wanting to buy specialist equipment.

But scale up, extracting is more efficient, far more. the link is a video of a commercial extracting plant, tell me how it would be more efficient for those guys to crush and strain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpRRawVyEGM

The other thing is there is more cost to crushing and straining than just the cost of the labor of crushing and straining. The next season you do not have built combs ready to go. You have to somehow get the bees to build those combs all over again which can involve considerably more time and management input on the part of the beekeeper, not to mention less honey from the bees.

So the crush & strain vs extract debate is really not a one answer fits all debate. Both suit certain circumstances but could be unworkable in other circumstances.


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## dudelt

clyderoad said:


> for you crush and stain guys, I'd like to know how you get the honey to drain from the crushed comb in a reasonable amount of time (say a day)? I ask because my cappings take quite some time to drain so I can recover most of the honey in them.


I put mine in a 5 gallon food safe bucket with a bunch of holes drilled in the bottom. Under that is a filter (about 400 - 600 micron from Mann Lake and others) to get the small particles and under that is a 5 gallon bucket for storage. probably 98 - 99% of the honey drips down in 24 hours. I do this in box I built with a light bulb inside for added warmth.


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## Jake Hetterick

What if you like comb in your honey or like to chew on the comb while you get the honey out the com


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## Oldtimer

Then you chew on the comb while you get the honey out of the comb. 

IE, whatever works for you.


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## JakeDatc

Why are the commercial beekeepers talking about commercial beekeeping methods and top bar hives? 

here ya go.... 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?273-Commercial-Beekeeping-Pollination


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## Oldtimer

Cos I've owned and run top bar hives, thought it might be OK. Sorry you got a problem.

The link to large scale extracting was to illustrate that methods used depends on scale, I was not trying to turn you into a commercial beekeeper JakeDatc LOL. Read the post again you will find it pretty balanced.


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## JakeDatc

Ya.. but the negatives that people are bringing up have a lot to do with being inefficient on a larger scale. for 1-2 hives it doesn't matter. 

ie I'm not selling honey.. i'm eating it. I can't eat 100gal. we still have a few jars from my gf's top bar from 2 seasons ago. she didn't take any this fall

the nice thing about crush and strain is you can set it and forget it... just let it drip and walk away. if it takes overnight that is ok. If they have to build some new comb.. That is ok, top bars tend to start running out of space in the 2nd year anyway.


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## shannonswyatt

It really is about scale. If you have a single hive in your backyard should you purchase an motorized extractor, or just crush and strain? I would say crush and strain, but for some reason a lot of people purchase an extractor right after they get a hive and before the bees show up.


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## Oldtimer

Sometimes after the second month where I am.

Jake I'm not sure what's so negative. I don't have a problem with crush and strain for top bars and in fact that's what I get the top bar keepers I teach to do.

I was just offering a wider perspective but didn't realise anyone was going to feel threatened. Different folks, different strokes.


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## Tomas

As has been said before, both types of hives have their place in the beekeeping world. Both Langstroth and top bar hives have their advantages and disadvantages. Everybody has their own unique situation and desires which causes them to go with one system or the other--or even combining the two designs. 

I run just top bar hives in Honduras, anywhere from 50 up to 100. But I also worked several years with a commercial beekeeper in Wisconsin who had just about 2000 Langstroth hives for honey production and almond pollination. I’ve seen and experienced both sides of this debate—there will be no winner. Again, it all depends on your situation and what you want to do with your bees.

The following is a link to a post on my blog where I mused about top bar hives and why I like them and use them.

http://musingsonbeekeeping.blogspot.com/2014/07/musings-on-top-bar-hives-for.html

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Tom


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## Charlie B

Michael Bush said:


> The bees certainly don't seem to mind building comb. It's what they do. But having a place to put the nectar during a flow makes a lot more honey because of time. If we could just train the bees to build comb BEFORE the flow and wait to fill it UNTIL the flow... then I don't think it would matter at all.


The last thing my bees want to do is build comb. It takes a heavy flow for them to want to build comb or lots of sugar water when you first install a package to stimulate their wax glands to build comb. 

Why do you think swarms are so attracted to brood comb? Get two 10 frames deeps, one completely empty and one with 10 frames of comb and see which one the scouts get excited about. 

They'd rather forage for nectar and pollen for their brood than anything else. You just destroy what they've built and make them do it all over again. Doesn't sound like "Practical Beekeeping" to me.


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## ksr004

So glad I found the ignore button.


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## Jake Hetterick

Man you all done arguing about what's the right way to get honey from the comb ethier way works


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## Michael Bush

>Doesn't sound like "Practical Beekeeping" to me.

I can't see what is practical about buying an extractor if you don't have but a few hives.

"A comb honey beekeeper really needs, in addition to his bees and the usual apiary equipment and tools, only one other thing, and that is a pocket knife. The day you go into producing extracted honey, on the other hand, you must begin to think not only of an extractor, which is a costly machine used only a relatively minute part of the year, but also of uncapping equipment, strainers, settling tanks, wax melters, bottle filling equipment, pails and utensils galore and endless things. Besides this you must have a place to store supers of combs, subject to damage by moths and rodents and, given the nature of beeswax, very subject to destruction by fire. And still more: You must begin to think in terms of a whole new building, namely, a honey house, suitably constructed, supplied with power, and equipped.... 

"All this seems obvious enough, and yet time after time I have seen novice beekeepers, as soon as they had built their apiaries up to a half dozen or so hives, begin to look around for an extractor. It is as if one were to establish a small garden by the kitchen door, and then at once begin looking for a tractor to till it with. Unless then, you have, or plan eventually to have, perhaps fifty or more colonies of bees, you should try to resist looking in bee catalogs at the extractors and other enchanting and tempting tools that are offered and instead look with renewed fondness at your little pocket knife, so symbolic of the simplicity that is the mark of every truly good life."--Richard Taylor, The Comb Honey Book

"The opinion of experts once was that the production of beeswax in a colony required great quantities of nectar which, since it was turned into wax, would never be turned into honey. Until quite recently it was thought that bees could store seven pounds of honey for every pound of beeswax that they needed to manufacture for the construction of their combs--a figure which seems never to have been given any scientific basis, and which is in any case quite certainly wrong. The widespread view that if the combs were used over and over, through the use of the honey extractor, then the bees would be saved the trouble of building them and could convert the nectar thus saved into honey, was only minimally correct. A strong colony of bees will make almost as much comb honey as extracted honey on a strong honey flow. The advantage of the extractor, in increasing harvests, is that honey stored from minor flows, or gathered by the bees over many weeks of the summer, can easily be extracted, but comb honey cannot be easily produced under those conditions."--Richard Taylor, The Comb Honey Book

"Again, at all times of a heavy yield of honey, the bees secrete wax whether any combs are built or not; and if the sections are all supplied with foundation, and the hive filled with comb, this wax is wasted or else the foundation given is wasted; have it which way you please...To show that I am not alone in this matter regarding the waste of wax, I wish to quote from two or three of our best apiarists; the first is Prof. Cook, and no one will say that he is not good authority. he says on page 166 of the latest edition of his Manual 'But I find upon examination that the bees, even the most aged, while gathering, in the honey season, yield up the wax scales the same as those within the hive. During the active storing of the past season, especially when comb-building was in rapid progress, I found that nearly every bee taken from the flowers contained wax scales of varying size, in the wax pockets.'
"This is my experience during "active storing," and the wax scales are to be found on the bees just the same whether they are furnished with foundation or not; and I can arrive at no other conclusion than that arrived at by Mr. S.J. Youngman, when he says on page 108: 'The bees secrete wax during a honey flow, whether they are building comb or not; and if they are not employed in building comb, this wax is most certainly lost.'

"Once more on page 93, of the American Apiculturist, Mr. G.W. Demaree says: 'Observation has convinced me that swarms leave the parent colony better prepared to build comb than they ever are under other circumstances; and that if they are not allowed to utilize this accumulated force, by reason of having full sheets of foundation at hand to work out, there will necessarily be some loss; and I think that when the matter is computed, to find the loss and gain the result will show that the foundation really costs the apiarist double what he actually pays for it in cash'...Now, I have often noticed, and especially in looking back over the last year, after reading Mr. Mitchell's "Mistaken Economy," that swarms hived in June would fill their hives full of nice straight worker combs, and the combs would be filled with brood during the first two weeks after hiving; while a colony not casting a swarm would not make a gain of a single pound of honey; nor would a swarm having a full set of combs given them, or the frames filled with foundation, be a whit better off at the end of two weeks. Mr. P.H. Elwood has noted the same thing; thus proving that the theory that it takes 20 pounds of honey to produce one pound of comb, will not hold good in cases where bees desire comb and have free access to pollen. As most of my comb is built at this time, the reader will readily see that the combs cost me but little, save the looking after the colony once or twice while building comb, which is far cheaper than buying foundation, or fussing with a foundation mill."--G.M. Doolittle ABJ Vol 20 No 18 pg 276


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## dudelt

Tomas, thanks for the link to your website. I really enjoyed it.


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## barleynbaccy

Yes, Tomas the blog was a very nice read. 

I don't really want to take this back to the extracting argument, but I seem to be in a weird area. This will be my first spring with bees, and I fully expect to get nothing. The funny thing is I have more people asking me if I will get wax, and want to sell it, than honey.


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## shannonswyatt

If you only have a couple hives you won't have much wax. Then again, you may have more than Charlie B.


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## barleynbaccy

Lol, that's kind of what I meant by my expect nothing statement.

I plan to add more in the future, but I just think it's funny to watch the debate about keeping wax, and its effect on honey production. Where I am there are a number of Amish bee keepers, as well as local farmers and small commercial operations. Local honey is 6-7 bucks a pound if you search at the right time, but you wont find bees wax anywhere.

I have found out there is a niche market of ladies around here that like to make there own soap and candles. So the business is there if I ever want to expand past our "couple of garden hives" that this started out to be.


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## Charlie B

Ollie pointed out to me today that this thread is in the TBH forum. I didn't notice this when I first posted from I-Spy and failed to realize it in subsequent post. I was disrespectful for ranting in your forum and I apologize.


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## odfrank

Charlie, there are a couple of towns in Syria and Iraq who could use a guy like you to rant against those mean ISIS guys.


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## Slugga

As a hobbyist beekeeper in South Australia I have one TBH, two langs, a couple of 5 frame nuc's and a observation hive in my classroom (I am a high school science teacher). My first hive was a TBH because it was a cheap way to get into beekeeping. I thoroughly enjoyed learning with the TBH, and still like working it. The only problem I have found with TBH's in my climate is comb collapse when we have several 40+ degree Celsius days in a row (5-6 honey bars at a time!). I might try building another TBH one day- making it not as deep, and a bit wider to increase comb/topbar strength . I definitely see the merits in both types of hives, and am very happy just continuing to play around with them both!


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## shannonswyatt

odfrank said:


> Charlie, there are a couple of towns in Syria and Iraq who could use a guy like you to rant against those mean ISIS guys.


LOL!!!


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## shannonswyatt

Starting with a TBH can be like taking a sip of water from a fire hose. It definitely isn't for the faint of heart. You make so many mistakes as a beginner with any hive, and a TBH can magnify those problems. But once you start figuring it out (usually by listening and reading a lot) it is a lot of fun.


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## WWW

Charlie B said:


> Ollie pointed out to me today that this thread is in the TBH forum. I didn't notice this when I first posted from I-Spy and failed to realize it in subsequent post. I was disrespectful for ranting in your forum and I apologize.


A man who will stand up and apologize for his actions on a forum that is viewed by the world is a man worthy of having as a friend, there are so few out there, my hat is off to you Charlie.......


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## ruthiesbees

shannonswyatt said:


> Starting with a TBH can be like taking a sip of water from a fire hose. It definitely isn't for the faint of heart. You make so many mistakes as a beginner with any hive, and a TBH can magnify those problems. But once you start figuring it out (usually by listening and reading a lot) it is a lot of fun.


Shannon, did you really have that much trouble starting your topbar hive? Was it your first hive for beekeeping? I've not had that trouble and am telling the gardeners that I am working with that it's a nice way to "ease" into beekeeping. I'd like to hear a brief history of your adventure.


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## shannonswyatt

Ruth, take a new beek that hasn't done a whole lot with bees and hand them a bar of nice new white comb on a warm day. Do the same with someone with a lang and foundation. Stuff like that. I must have read to not twist the bars a thousand times, but until you do it... Plus I was getting a lot of discouraging words from other beeks. I know of two other top bar hive beeks within 40 miles of my home, and I didn't know about them until well after I had my hives. So no real mentor to speak of either. I think that it would have taken me longer to get to were I am on Langs because it would have been easier. So I'm grateful that I took the accelerated course. But a lot of people just would like a box in the back yard with a spout on the side for the honey to come out.


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## Cloverdale

"And yet I do keep them from swarming whenever I take the time to do it."

Michael, what are your steps to prevent swarming in a TBH? A friend gave me one and I would like to try a TBH this year, sounds very interesting and fun to get involved with.


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## Sovek

Cloverdale said:


> "And yet I do keep them from swarming whenever I take the time to do it."
> 
> Michael, what are your steps to prevent swarming in a TBH? A friend gave me one and I would like to try a TBH this year, sounds very interesting and fun to get involved with.


Add either an empty bar or a bar with empty comb in the middle of the brood nest. I did that a few times in mine and they kept drawing out comb until somewhere around august/september.


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## Michael Bush

>Michael, what are your steps to prevent swarming in a TBH? A friend gave me one and I would like to try a TBH this year, sounds very interesting and fun to get involved with.

It helps to have a long one to start with and not a small crowded one... of course. Open the brood nest. You can feed one bar at a time while it's early and they are not strong yet. But you can put two or three or more in when it's warm out and the hive is strong. Feed empty bars between two straight brood combs. This gets the brood nest to expand. Part of the problem is when they put some capped honey beside the brood nest it stifles the expansion of the brood nest from that point on. Opening the brood nest gets it to expand again.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#management
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm


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## Eric Crosby

Slugga, have you tried rigid insulation around the TBH on the sides and top?


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## Slugga

Hi Eric, 
No i haven't tried insulating the whole hive. Last summer I placed a few small bales of pea straw on top of the hive to aid in insulation against the heat- but still had comb collapse and the bees also absconded as they were overrun by ants. I haven't had any problems with my foundationless frames in the langs though. Having one or two more anchor points for soft comb makes a big difference!


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## Cloverdale

Sovek said:


> Add either an empty bar or a bar with empty comb in the middle of the brood nest. I did that a few times in mine and they kept drawing out comb until somewhere around august/september.


Thanks, 🐝


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## Cloverdale

Michael Bush said:


> >Michael, what are your steps to prevent swarming in a TBH? A friend gave me one and I would like to try a TBH this year, sounds very interesting and fun to get involved with.
> 
> It helps to have a long one to start with and not a small crowded one... of course. Open the brood nest. You can feed one bar at a time while it's early and they are not strong yet. But you can put two or three or more in when it's warm out and the hive is strong. Feed empty bars between two straight brood combs. This gets the brood nest to expand. Part of the problem is when they put some capped honey beside the brood nest it stifles the expansion of the brood nest from that point on. Opening the brood nest gets it to expand again.
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#management
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm


Thank you ?Michael, I will check out your links, Debbee 🐝


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