# Why haven't more beekeepers been inspired by The Sustainable Apiary



## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I kept bees in the early 70s as a teen when I retired I got back into keeping bees I watched the sustainable apiary and knew that's the way to go. Now it's package season again and I ask Why?


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## Andhors (Dec 7, 2018)

Why what?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Dan,
-Because they have not seen it (perhaps add it to your post)
-they would rather order.
-They do not feel they can be sustainable.
-Even if they try the bees all die so they need to order more.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Dan;
Are you referring specifically to Michael Palmer's example?

Regarding packages seen as the alternative, well you have to start somewhere..... and be able to keep them alive and thriving as a first move to sustainable. Some climates and local conditions often present quite a few challenges to making that happen.

Getting advice (and following it) from someone who really is doing it in very similar conditions is a good way to start.


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## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

Not buying bees anymore is awesome, and it is my goal as a hobby beekeeper. I haven't bought a package or nuc in years. My hive count is pretty low and I live in an area with high winter losses so overall, its challenging and frustrating. One big thing that I was taught when I learned sustainable beekeeping was the introduction of different genetics into the yard is super important. So you either buy some bees (like queens) or you raise/mate new queens in other semi-far-away places. I think a lot of people don't do it because it requires beekeepers to take that extra step-up in understanding management and can be a lot of work when swarm/splitting season comes around.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

I've watched Micheal Palmers Sustainable Apiary lecture at least 4 or 5 times in the past 2 years...really, really excellent!


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

The same question would apply to the writings and lectures of Brother Adam. And before him: Ferdinand Gerstung. Quite some quotes that are said to be from Brother Adam actually stem from Gerstung. Like: a queen must be born into paradise. That is a quote written in 1926 by Gerstung. Also the way Brother Adam made starters by collecting brood combs and boosting the starter to the point of swarming: that method also was described by Gerstung in his book 1926. Der Bien und seine Zucht. 

I also found many many insights into good beekeeping practices in very old literature. So why all this knowledge out there just withers instead of being used? It is a shame, really. 

Clipping wings of a queen for swarm prevention is described in a book by Nicol Jacobi, dating back to 1568. 

Nothing new in beekeeping. Nothing new. The beekeeping community loses knowledge all the time. And re-invents, what others been through yonks ago.

Look at the hexagon frame that Charles Dadant fiddled around with, before he finally got back to a regular frame. All those thoughts are now re-thought again and hilarious invention hexagonal hives and frames are re-invented over and over again. And fail again.


We have the web/internet nowadays and all the information sticks in it. Still 99,9 % of the beekeepers make no use of it.

It is just like it is. But its a shame for sure.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Like: Also the way Brother Adam made starters by collecting brood combs and boosting the starter to the point of swarming: that method also was described by Gerstung in his book 1926. Der Bien und seine Zucht.


I see his book is available, but in German. Is there an English version? I'd love to read it. I agree with you...nothing new in beekeeping.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Have you ever tried trading queens or queen cells?


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Robert Holcombe said:


> Have you ever tried trading queens or queen cells?


Yes in fact I offered to take one of his queens this morning that he thought was to pissy. I've been grafting and even giving queen away to some local beekeepers. It's been hard to find someone that's close willing to do the work. Willing to do the work? maybe that's why


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> I see his book is available, but in German. Is there an English version? I'd love to read it. I agree with you...nothing new in beekeeping.


The work of Samuel Ramsey is the best new thing I found.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Andhors said:


> Why what?


If you have watched Mr. Palmers videos you would know what. "Why?" It's taken from them.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I'm going with double nuc boxes this year. They're somewhat different than Michael's, but the concept is similar.

I still don't understand how Michael manages swarming other than having superior genetics.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

username00101 said:


> I'm going with double nuc boxes this year. They're somewhat different than Michael's, but the concept is similar.
> 
> I don't have any queen excluder, and I refuse to pay $10 for a queen excluder.
> 
> I still don't understand how Michael manages swarming other than having superior genetics.


The swarming, yup that's a hard one I have a store bought queen that just got through her 3rd winter and never made a swarm cell. I'm grafting off of her this year' just wonder if that will help with that.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Gray Goose said:


> Dan,
> 
> -Because they have not seen it (perhaps add it to your post)
> 
> ...


There are very nice stickys above that have it all I would question someone who has bees and has not seen it of their commitment.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Dan the bee guy said:


> There are very nice stickys above that have it all I would question someone who has bees and has not seen it of their commitment.


Hi Dan,
I have had bees since 79 I just got a computer, 1.5 years ago, Prior to that time , IE pre 2018, I did not see anything ported thru the internet.
Having a computer does not IMO offer any stance on bee keeping commitment, or enlightenment, You are way off base with such a silly comment.

How many computers did Gerstung have in 1926. ? How could he look up the sticky notes and be committed? By your definition, any one with out the computer and the time to look up many things on the net, is not commited. 
Almost everything in bee keeping has been discovered with out computers, before either of us were born.

IMO there are more bee keepers with out a computer, and not on BeeSource , than having computer and On beeSource. 
Take a walk in someone else shoes, I think yours are getting a bit tight, maybe affecting circulation. 

I know 8 to 10 beekeepers in their 70s-80s Who I respect, they do not even know what BeeSorces is, hmmm they must also be uncommitted............

Somewhat offended
GG


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Dan,
> I have had bees since 79 I just got a computer, 1.5 years ago, Prior to that time , IE pre 2018, I did not see anything ported thru the internet.
> Having a computer does not IMO offer any stance on bee keeping commitment, or enlightenment, You are way off base with such a silly comment.
> 
> ...


Well Grey Goose you are easily offended since we are using computers only those that have them that have them could be offended if they aren't using them to learn. The books are still here it's much harder to find the right books but it can be done. The beekeeping class I took long ago had no such information as to raising queens or making nucs. Since I was just a young kid at the time I didn't know the right questions to ask. It was 25 year ago when I first heard about something is wrong with the bees and thought that when I retire I might not be able to do it again but when I did I said what the hell I might as well try so the learning process began for me. FWIW the stickys were not there when I first found Bee Source and I didn't find The Sustainable Apiary through Bee Source. We use the tools we have at the time and now that we have them there are many that refuse to use them that's what I'm talking about. 
BTW Dr. Samuel Ramsey I just found his work this last year IT'S THE FAT BODY not the hemolymph that the mites eat, makes it easy to see why northern beeks have to keep the mite count lower because of our long winters for our bees to survive.
My point on asking the question was to try to get more to be sustainable, start a little more thinking about what it takes to be a farmer in these tough times.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Can we please return to my question: How does the sustainable apiary prevent swarms, and still get a good honey yield every year?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Akademee said:


> My hive count is pretty low and I live in an area with high winter losses so overall, its challenging and frustrating.


Why do you think that your area has high winter losses?


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

username00101 said:


> Can we please return to my question: How does the sustainable apiary prevent swarms, and still get a good honey yield every year?


I think it's about genetics, if you have swarmy bees you need to fix that. Also, having hives set aside for increase and others that you will use for honey only.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

username00101 said:


> Can we please return to my question: How does the sustainable apiary prevent swarms, and still get a good honey yield every year?


I don't under stand your confusion or question... 
why would swarming or lack of honey production be a issue ?


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

I'm not sure how anyone could be offended by Dan's post. GG unless you have been buying packages every year since 1979 then I don't think this post was directed to you.

Dan - my perspective on packages. They are helpful when you're first starting out. In my own case, this is my 5th year beekeeping. 2 of those years I had major winter loses and packages allowed me to continue keeping bees. Also, you need a source when you first start out. The learning curve is high in the first few years. This is the first year that I had 100% winter survival. On the other hand there are plenty of people who think they can go treatment free before they have enough experience. They keep beating that same horse year after year.

Jon


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Dan,
> I have had bees since 79 I just got a computer, 1.5 years ago, Prior to that time , IE pre 2018, I did not see anything ported thru the internet.
> Having a computer does not IMO offer any stance on bee keeping commitment, or enlightenment, You are way off base with such a silly comment.
> 
> ...


Ok Dan we are good I may have taken it the wrong way.

My answers are still valid, Most that are not sustaining do not have the data , or choose not to be, due to perceived complication, or technique.
I would be surprised if more that 25% of the folks on BS are self sustaining, 
Many try, some succede.

A big picture layout may be more helpful as the start ,, for this thread.

Or have clubs be sustainable as a group, IE need to start somewhere.

Carry on
GG


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

msl said:


> I don't under stand your confusion or question...
> why would swarming or lack of honey production be a issue ?


When you split a hive, the split needs to somehow draw out all new foundation and still make a honey surplus.

Then the parent hive has multiple frames of new foundation it needs to draw out, and still somehow make a honey crop?

Am I missing something here, or maybe the sustainable apiary assumes that there's a surplus of drawn comb available ?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

nucs not splits...
you make "weak" summer nucs that grow out and over winter as a nuc (as apposed to strong spring nucs/splits your trying to grow up in time to make a crop and or overwinter as a fullsized hive)
come spring you drop a nuc in any production hive dead outs
the rest of the nucs are run a brood factory, powering your cell builders and nuc building side of the operation
This allows you to run all the production hives for honey with out taking any resources out of them. 

The other option is to make a stronger late summer/post flow nucs http://www.rrbeekeepers.com/Meghan/Sustainable-Fall-Nucs.pdf


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

jonsl said:


> ... In my own case, this is my 5th year beekeeping. 2 of those years I had major winter loses and packages allowed me to continue keeping bees. Also, you need a source when you first start out. The learning curve is high in the first few years. This is the first year that I had 100% winter survival. On the other hand there are plenty of people who think they can go treatment free before they have enough experience. They keep beating that same horse year after year.
> 
> Jon


Where I am at. My bee were wiped out two years ago. Poor mite control, slow to react to obvious signs, poor set-up for winter, the swarms I had gotten were very susceptible to mites, wrinkled wing virus. I have not bought any packages and probably never will, even if wiped out again. Got lucky with a swarm last spring and am trying to build up enough hives that even with another bad year will still have a few hives to go on with.

For me it'll be swarm catching and splitting, repeat. Build up my observation and management skills until I am more than just a bee-murderer. I feel I am doing better, 4 of 4 survived this winter.


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## pgayle (Jan 27, 2008)

Frank, I keep looking for the "like" button!  
Yes you are right on. Find someone in your area and volunteer to go with them on "rounds". Read and ask lots of questions.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

More questions:

1) Why does the split need to be from a mid summer post-flow colony? 

2) How exactly do you manage production colonies, and somehow avoid swarming? It sounds like some beekeepers have these large production colonies that make 100lbs of honey, and they don't require swarm management.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

username00101 said:


> Can we please return to my question: How does the sustainable apiary prevent swarms, and still get a good honey yield every year?


Username, Sustainable Apiary is a term with different meanings to many. Most basic is to not have to/need to order bees or Queens. So One would make the queens needed for requeening and splits at their own yards, also have enough bees to sustain losses, and recover. Sustainable is not really about swarm prevention, Swarm prevention is done several ways , each keeper somewhat has their favorite way, for instance, Dr Leo just catches them and hives them , other do "splits" Honey yield is affected by Sustainable apiary in the area of not using your production hives for Increase , so they can produce honey. Sustainable is something easier done at the 10 + hive level, most of the larger keepers do it for cost relief and the get sooner Queens, And know genetics. Hope that helps
GG


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

"The work of Samuel Ramsey is the best new thing I found." 

There is more out there.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

username00101 said:


> Can we please return to my question: How does the sustainable apiary prevent swarms, and still get a good honey yield every year?


Using your own bees to make your own bees It's about selection of the traits you want. So you are starting with bees that want to swarm a lot it would be hard to fix that without finding a line of bee that's not so apt to swarm. You should go to the National Honey Show on youtube a great resource for beekeepers it has much more than Michael Palmer not a dud in that bunch. It's my favorite new years watch list.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Robert Holcombe said:


> "The work of Samuel Ramsey is the best new thing I found."
> 
> There is more out there.


please list your favorite That's why I called him the best new thing


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## herb (Jun 7, 2018)

Dan the bee guy said:


> I kept bees in the early 70s as a teen when I retired I got back into keeping bees I watched the sustainable apiary and knew that's the way to go. Now it's package season again and I ask Why?


Think there still are some older and YOUNGER gardeners practicing old fashioned beekeeping. 
Just added these two links to my own website.

Package vs nuc challenge. EXCELLENT comparison between nuc vs. package outcomes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsVGdxEE0Vw

Strong nucs/poor packages/fixing foundation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0TwhZF2Z0Q


MINE is http://sequimplants.com/beekeeping
I just put out some bait hives and mentored two great new potential beekeepers. Will bring a caught swarm over to them later on or one of my newly queened nucs. 
All in all, I advised them to wait and observe before diving in.
We certainly discussed the modern package and its poor showing for most. Buying nucs with established queens from a reputable source who lets them get fertilized the old fashioned way and observes the queens production before shipping out is well worth the extra cost of buying leftover pollinizing bees and stamped out and artificially inseminated bees from Queen factories so to speak.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

delete


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## bobo (Feb 15, 2015)

Dan,
Thank you for asking that question. I managed to come across Mr. Michael Palmer on youtube just a few weeks ago. After watching his video once, and then again, and then one more time, it dawned on me - I should be doing this. 

From what I get, he has two types of bee yards: production colonies, and nuc yards. He uses overwintered nucs to replenish his production winter losses, to provide stock for queen rearing, and to increase his nuc numbers. It’s the nuc side that makes the business sustainable, because he doesn’t have to rob his production hives of strength to manage his queen rearing/increase business.

Swarm control is a challenge for all beekeepers and varies with location, honey flow, season, genetics, and beekeepers. His location in northern Vt has blessed him with a long, fairly constant flow from late May thru September. His production colonies number 1000+. 

What impressed me was the dynamism of a nucleus colony (his typically are 5 frame deeps), and the rapidity of buildup in comb drawing and population.

I am a small time, long time, low numbers of hives beekeeper, who for the past three years has suffered with total winter losses (so that speaks to my inability to manage - and perhaps the validity of this post). 

For those bearing with me, on April 4th, I purchased two packages from the south and two additional queens each I installed in 5 frame medium depth nucs of drawn comb, pollen and honey. The majority of each package I dumped into a standard medium chamber with drawn comb, pollen and honey. The queens have taken (I think). I hope these are the last two packages I ever buy.

My plan is to build up these nucs to two or three story units. To harvest brood from these two nucs to start a couple more. To learn how to raise my own queens. To overwinter nucs and start down the path to sustainability. It’s all in the nucs.

Palmer states in one of his video that in six to eight weeks from late May to late July he harvested 900 frames of brood from 50 nucs. That’s 18 frames per nuc. All used to supplement his queen rearing and nuc building activity. All without touching his production hives. 

Thanks Dan again, for asking the question. I believe it’s one we should all be asking.
There may be nothing new under the sun, but still it rises every morning to provide us age-old illumination. The light bulb has gone ON for me.

Bob from Holyoke


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

username00101 said:


> More questions:
> 
> How exactly do you manage production colonies, and somehow avoid swarming? It sounds like some beekeepers have these large production colonies that make 100lbs of honey, and they don't require swarm management.


To reduce swarming, I have good low swarming stock. You might by by some queens from reputable sources that have bee selected for their positive traits.

I like to have a young queen in every hive. Young queens, less than a year old, are reluctant to swarm....if they are good stock.

I make small nucs off of very strong hives early and open up the brood nest by inserting empty frames into the 2nd box. Room up above for the queen to lay is an excellent swarm preventitive.

Young queens of good stock and making space for the queen to lay are really the keys to success, IMO.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Yes in fact I offered to take one of his queens this morning that he thought was to pissy. I've been grafting and even giving queen away to some local beekeepers. It's been hard to find someone that's close willing to do the work. Willing to do the work? maybe that's why


I think you've hit the nail there.....for some, its just too much work and packages are easy despite the ever increasing cost. Some folks have more money than time, some more time than money. Its a balance act for sure.

That said; our personal goal has always been to maintain a sustainable system....sometimes it works out, sometimes not....That's beekeeping. I do hate buying bees, but what are you gonna do when you need some?

If I was closer to Rib Lake (about 3 hours), I'd enjoy trading queens and bees (swapping tales) with you, we've sought like-minded beekeepers around here for many years, most simply prefer to buy packages. So it goes.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Dan the bee guy said:


> I kept bees in the early 70s as a teen when I retired I got back into keeping bees I watched the sustainable apiary and knew that's the way to go. Now it's package season again and I ask Why?


The Sustainable Apiary = I've got too many bees now. Yep it's true!


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## Outdoor N8 (Aug 7, 2015)

" ... and I ask Why? "

IMO, In our 'modern society' basic animal husbandry is not only an abstract thought but generally dead.


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## vtbeeguy (Jun 10, 2016)

One MAJOR thing to keep in mind with M.P. is he is an established beekeeper with a supply of DRAWN COMBS. Not to mention location can play a role we are blessed flow wise in Vt. You will struggle more with swarm control than someone who has multiple drawn supers for each production hive as well as drawn brood combs. It can still be done without drawn comb but you won't expand as fast or get as much honey as you will when you have your apiary established and a stock of drawn combs. His method and a couple of his queens (one still kicking from 2016) set my apiary off towards sustainability. Implementing his techniques is a good starting point for any beekeeper. As to why more haven't adopted his sustainable apiary and packages are still so prevalent I blame the "NATURAL BEEKEEPING MOVENT". Bunch of "gurus" selling the uninformed on rainbows and unicorns as the cure for the honeybee....


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Dan - to help me understand your thinking, how many hives do you run? 

Yes, alot of knowledge from previous generations has been lost with all of this mite distraction. It is obvious from some of the earlier coments that the ability to expand hive numbers AND keep them all productive is no longer commonplace.

Crazy Roland


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## beesRus (Nov 15, 2018)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I also found many many insights into good beekeeping practices in very old literature. So why all this knowledge out there just withers instead of being used? ... what others been through yonks ago.


Thanks for sharing those names in history!


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## beesRus (Nov 15, 2018)

vtbeeguy said:


> .... towards sustainability. Implementing his techniques is a good starting point for any beekeeper. As to why more haven't adopted his sustainable apiary and packages are still so prevalent I blame the "NATURAL BEEKEEPING MOVEMENT". Bunch of "gurus" selling the uninformed on rainbows and unicorns as the cure for the honeybee....


 And that's helped along by internet providers filtering to show 'sellers of stuff' at top of search results. Sharing information and specific things to research on the internet does help us all to use the internet as a useful tool (vs a shopping mall for gadgets that do not work). Thanks to all who have been sharing real experience here for years. We newbies appreciate it.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Roland said:


> Dan - to help me understand your thinking, how many hives do you run?
> 
> Yes, alot of knowledge from previous generations has been lost with all of this mite distraction. It is obvious from some of the earlier coments that the ability to expand hive numbers AND keep them all productive is no longer commonplace.
> 
> Crazy Roland


As of now I have 8 and limited funds. It didn't help when I went through some foulbrood a few years ago when I had some good over wintered colonies and had to burn most of my stuff. Was shocked when I went to a picnic that honey bee ware had and the new beekeepers there didn't know a thing about bee diseases. Just wish that more small beekeepers would take the leap.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

In reality, can you think of any advertising that does not exaggerate and prey upon peoples hopes, dreams, fears etc. That does attract a high percentage of people susceptible to to the sensational. They are not the ones who will be attracted to things that suggest you need to spend lots of time and observation to learn the basics to achieve good success rates.

The ones who do get through the disappointment of finding out the tooth fairy doesnt exist, start looking deeper and discover concepts such as the Sustainable Apiary that Michael Palmer almost trademarks: No tooth fairy fantasy there. Many others have similar sound advice. The charlatans are outnumbered but they are enchanting to many.
Some people just are willing victims by nature and not much can be done about it. 

_When the student is ready, the teacher will appear!_


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

crofter said:


> _When the student is ready, the teacher will appear!_


I like that line however, I am largely self taught through some reading and lots of experience. In the end, experience is IMO the best teacher.
True there are many tricks to be learned, and a good teacher could speed up the process.

Now this sustainable stuff: I was just telling a newby yesterday that I had a hive sitting under a tree in my yard untouched for about ten years. It survived and probably through off numerous swarms during that time. When I did get into, it was near impossible to as it was so gummed up and just plain old.

This was prior to the mites. Nowadays, the same hive would be lucky to make it for a year and a half eveb if it started with zero mites. I don't buy bees, never did, however, I do make lots of splits in the spring to replace those lost to whatever, which of course these days is the deadly mite/hive beetle/treatment combination.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Thank you Dan, I will review your posts with that in mind.

Crazy Roland


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

bobo said:


> Dan,
> Thank you for asking that question. I managed to come across Mr. Michael Palmer on youtube just a few weeks ago.  After watching his video once, and then again, and then one more time, it dawned on me - I should be doing this.
> 
> From what I get, he has two types of bee yards: production colonies, and nuc yards. He uses overwintered nucs to replenish his production winter losses, to provide stock for queen rearing, and to increase his nuc numbers. It’s the nuc side that makes the business sustainable, because he doesn’t have to rob his production hives of strength to manage his queen rearing/increase business.
> ...


Yes, when the light bulb goes on, it is very exciting, an “aha” moment. For me, like most, having a sustainable apiary was keeping out, or controlling, most of the diseases/viruses these poor bees get.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

OK Dan, let's see If I understand your situation. You have 8 hives on new comb, and are in the northern part of Wisconsin where thee Ag scene iis not o intensive. How did I do?

Crazy Roland


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## ChrisE (Jul 11, 2018)

I was lucky when I started beekeeping and saw Michael Palmer's sustainable apiary video, I think it should be a requirement for any new beek. I don't understand why anyone would want to constantly buy packages year after year, when with a little work you can overwinter nucs. I also like the comment "use what you have". I found a pile of old OSB laying around at work and used it to build my nucs. Are they pretty, nope, but they are still working 4 years later. Even for a noob like me, it's possible to have a sustainable apiary if you are willing to put in the work.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

:thumbsup:


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Roland said:


> OK Dan, let's see If I understand your situation. You have 8 hives on new comb, and are in the northern part of Wisconsin where thee Ag scene iis not o intensive. How did I do?
> 
> Crazy Roland


doing fine. was hoping to expand slowly to 30 hive but for health reasons don't think I'll get there. couple of friends do bees one is dealing with cancer the other with parkinsons I do all I can to help them I need their hives for mating queens. wish I could get a few more younger beeks close


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Several years ago, I was lucky enough to stumble onto Michael Palmers presentations at the National Honey Show in England. You are right....everyone that keeps bees should view his presentations.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I do all I can to help them I need their hives for mating queens. wish I could get a few more younger beeks close


it strikes me funny as you ask "why" , while haveing more hives then most hobbiests you go on to say you can't be sustainable with 8 hives and need help of other beekeepers? 
grab a $14 sheet of blue/pink foam insulation and make 16 mating nucs, now you don't need their hives


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

msl said:


> it strikes me funny as you ask "why" , while haveing more hives then most hobbiests you go on to say you can't be sustainable with 8 hives and need help of other beekeepers?
> grab a $14 sheet of blue/pink foam insulation and make 16 mating nucs, now you don't need their hives


gee I thought you were going to complain because he was looking for younger beeks.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Gino45 said:


> I like that line however, I am largely self taught through some reading and lots of experience. In the end, experience is IMO the best teacher.
> True there are many tricks to be learned, and a good teacher could speed up the process.
> 
> Now this sustainable stuff: I was just telling a newby yesterday that I had a hive sitting under a tree in my yard untouched for about ten years. It survived and probably through off numerous swarms during that time. When I did get into, it was near impossible to as it was so gummed up and just plain old.
> ...


Do you have hive beetles there?


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## Highland_Honey (May 12, 2020)

Dan the bee guy said:


> I kept bees in the early 70s as a teen when I retired I got back into keeping bees I watched the sustainable apiary and knew that's the way to go. Now it's package season again and I ask Why?


You are telling my story. Kept bees back in the 70's. I'm now in my third year back into beekeeping. I'm increasing my apiary with splits and with captured feral swarms from calls and from traps set out on various country properties, each approx 10 to 15 miles apart. Besides my apiary here at the house, I've another yard that is 8 miles away on another piece of property I own. It's been my experience that purchased packages and nucs are usually southern bred bees who don't overwinter well here in Zone 5 without a lot of TLC, whereas the local bees are repeatedly coming out of winter strong. But it's not just the winter....it's also the vast differences in nectar flow and pollen availability as well. I've watched/listened to all of Michael Palmer's vids on youtube as well as those of Dr Leo Sharashkin repeatedly. I'm currently running equal number of Top Bars and 8-frame Langs and double nucs, and am in the process of having a couple of Layens hives built on Dr Leo's plans. I'm looking forward to seeing how they all compare at the end of the year.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

Sounds like you are referring to the stuff that Michael Palmer puts out. All of his information, and techniques are quite successful for him. It is possible that they would also be for anyone else that follows him and tries the same things in their apiary. However, what he does is both labor and time intensive, as well as very specifically time critical. What he does is not "easy" even if the concepts he describes are "simple". People come to beekeeping with many different goals, and equally different expectations. There are loads of concepts that seem quite intuitive as you look at them being successfully practiced by someone. But, in fact, involve quite a bit more than meets the eye. Loads of discipline and consistency are required in many cases, that hobbyists, either lack, or are not inclined to implement. 

It's like woodworking. Not too many hundred years ago it was all done by hand. And if you were a cabinet maker, you split or sawed your boards to size. Used a jointing plane to true and square them. Used carving tools to ornament them. Used chisels and joinery techniques to fasten them together with glue that you cooked in a pot. And all that was left over went into heating your shop. Today, we use pocket holes and buy S4S lumber, and if something needs ornamentation we let the CNC do it (if we can afford one). And if we throw away our left overs because we couldn't be bothered. 

As a hobby, people can't be bothered with discipline and time constraints and learning skills that have to be practiced and documented and examined for results. As industrial professionals, all that translates into money if someone has to be paid to do it, or time if a person does it without employees. 

Okay, I am speaking in huge sweeping generalities that are likely very unfair to all people referenced, but it is how I see it from a "why don't they" perspective. With a little more time I could certainly expand that more, but I shouldn't. I am a very literal person. This brings me trouble when people ask questions. My wife will say something like "Why is this dish here?" To which I answer with the whole story of how it gotten taken out of the cabinet, and what it was used for, why it was moved to that particular place on the counter, and lastly, how I got interrupted by a phone call before putting it in the dishwasher. This infuriates her, because I think later, she was not interested in the answer to the question, what she really meant was "Put this dish in the dishwasher." I can no more train her to say that instead of asking the passive aggressive question, than she can train me to understand what she means and not answer the question asked.  So this was my attempt at explaining why MP's stuff is not more widely employed. Similar reasons to why Tom Seely's stuff isn't followed either, or <insert your favorite current day bee expert> as well.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Absinthe: Interesting analogy. Alot of skilled beekeeping is a feel for the timing, which is only gained be years of experience. In another thread, OSB is discussed. We expanded past that in the 30's, and use a method that might be very hard for the inexperienced to follow.

Crazy Roland


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

yep... having a set of cordless tools doesn't make you a woodworker any more then having a beehive makes you a beekeeper. 



> However, what he does is both labor and time intensive, as well as very specifically time critical. What he does is not "easy" even if the concepts he describes are "simple"


I disagree... you can't compare a commercial honey/nuc opperation to a BYBK the scope and scale is off..

It is simple, easy, and fast to pull a summer nuc or and grow it out to overwinter. 1st year beekeeping stuff... and that's the basics of the program(at BKBK scale) make your own replacements when its easy to. 
If you don't want to rear your own at this point local queens will be available and prices have fallen after the spring rush.

but I think this point is very true


> "As a hobby, people can't be bothered with"


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

I get a little talkative when I am inside my head. Sometimes it come out in the posts.  Sure, there are always new techniques, or experiments or other such things. But for some it is a luxury to be able to experiment. Hard to do A/B testing when you only have 1 hive  And comparing how bad something fails to how bad it failed last year is kind of a bad test too


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

msl said:


> yep... having a set of cordless tools doesn't make you a woodworker any more then having a beehive makes you a beekeeper.
> Sure it does, and at just about equal skilllevel. Pretty much unless it is a licensed profession, then someone "is" whatever they call themself. The quality of that statement is for others to judge.  But that is a semantic issue, and I fully understand what you mean, because as I read it, I heard in my head the emphasis being placed on the words.
> 
> I disagree... you can't compare a commercial honey/nuc opperation to a BYBK the scope and scale is off..
> ...


responses inline


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## crab414 (Jan 6, 2020)

This is the stage I'm at. Not enough experience to be able to make a decision and run with it. Do I go for increases or strictly worry about getting a good yield of honey? When I get like this, I know I'm prone to making mistakes do to inaction. 
Well, I have all my supers ready to go on tomorrow and six nucs ready just in case...


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

I have. Inspired me to overwinter 5. Read a report that a minimum of 5 has the best mathematical chance of overwintering successfully. Super happy to get 100% this year. Time for a new set of problems.


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

Owning a hive doesn't necessarily make a person a beekeeper. They may just be a bee haver.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> If someone with 100 colonies loses 2 over the winter, it can easily be taken in stride, or a frame or more of brood can be moved to those colonies without batting an eye, or simply recombining what is left into another colony, or just taken in stride as the CODB. But the person with 1 or 2 hives, loses 2 over the winter,


you can't compare 2% losses to 100% losses



> Everything is simple and easy when you know how to do it, and you have done it. Not everyone has learned by watching their parents, or had mentors show them stuff. Some and I suspect even many either have no training other than what they glean from a book or pamphlet, or if they are lucky their local beekeepers association, or an online correspondence course like the Penn State one.


bingo! The problem is a lack of education, motivation, and innovation,

While the last is inherent, the first 2 are completely within your control, but you make it sound like successful beekeepers are born with a silver hive tool in there mouth. an under educated beekeeper only has them self's to blame 

how many people take the $50, 2-hour intro to beekeeping, drop $600+ on bees and gear and never take another class?
the don't bother to take the mite treatment class, the splits class, the pepping to over winter class (or do the equivalent on line research ) and they wonder why they don't have bees come spring.. 
there is a weird duality about many of them.. 
They are keeping bees to save the bees because they hurd people with years(some times genurations) of experience feeding there family thew bees are having a hard time keeping bees alive.... 
Yet they feel their 2 hour education is adequate and bees should do just fine in there backyard with little inputs or care.:kn::doh:


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Absinthe,
I am under the impression that you are trying too hard. Maybe I am wrong about that, but it is hard to stay out after you perform a task then read somewhere about something you should or should not have done. Bees need time to do their jobs without constant disruption.
There are mites in your colonies. If you treat for mites, treat them on a timely schedule based on when mites are known to proliferate instead of doing mite rolls or washes. Leave that for after you can successfully grow your apiary. Doing mite rolls before and after each treatment will increase your chances of creating problems. 
If you have honey supers on feel free to remove the lid and look into the hive every day if you want, but stay out of the brood nest. As time goes by and you learn what a healthy hive looks like you will be able to tell if there may be a problem in the brood nest without pulling each frame. If they don't look organized then have a look.
When the inspector comes here, we begin by pulling a center frame and so on until we find open brood to check for disease, not all frames. Our inspector is very friendly and helpful.
If you haven't already,I recommend you read, "Swarming, it's Control and Prevention," by L.E. Snelgrove. It is available on-line as a PDF and is a short read. Even if you decide not to employ Snelgrove Boards you will learn a bit about why and when bees do what they do.
My favorite aspects of the SBs is that after the initial manipulation is done I no longer have to worry about what is going on in the bottom brood box for two or three weeks. If your bees aren't as swarmy as mine this time could be extended. All I have to do is monitor the top box for the amount of brood that is yet to emerge, etc., since it is on top all I have to do is remove the lid to pull and examine the frames within. I do this every three days or so, but since this is not a growing brood nest it presents no problems and can satisfy the need to do something. All the while the Queen is safely in the bottom box far from my clumsy, disruptive hands.

I believe the high points I must hit are treating during brood-less periods, stores going into Winter, stores as brooding ramps up in the Spring, swarm prevention and making sure they have room to expand without giving them more than they can protect. I think if you concern yourself mostly with these few things I believe your success rate will improve. As you gain confidence you can then start dealing with the finer points of beekeeping.

Good luck,
Alex


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

I think we are in complete agreement. At least about people in general. 

There is a lot of relativism here, though. I can compare 2% to 100% easily. Because if a person only has one colony he can only have 100% loss or 100% success because he doesn't have the resources to back things up. This is just how one thing relates to another when scope and scale come in to play. Also why when you say you want to kill 300 bees doing an ether roll for mite count a one hive guy cringes OMG 300 dead bees... he is not thinking that his queen just laid 15000 eggs. But none of that is the point. 

I think the point I was after is that the answer to "Why isn't everyone a disciple of Palmer or Seely or whoever the profit of the year happens to be?" is a different answer for the hobbiest, the sideliner, the professional, the industrial and the almond bee supplier. Each of these people has specific goals, investments, and expenses. Be those expenses time or money or other resources. And I was trying to show why 2 specific classes of these keepers were not going to follow that stream of philosophy. I wasn't intending to suggest that either class was better or worse, but rather that a reason that bothered one would definitely not bother the other and vise versa. 

I am an X-Generation, just barely missed being a boomer. But we have no heroes, and don't want to grow up to be president. I find the lack of hero thing sad, so I have tried to find heroes in the fields I get interested in. Many of them ultimately disappoint me eventually, as they are human and eventually they are all bound to do. If we are lucky, they die during our lifetime before they can disappoint us, or at least someone clears their browser history before anyone finds out. But that whole "Ask 10 beekeepers a question and you will get 12 answers, none of which will work for your specific situation." is not an answer I really like. I don't believe that animal husbandry has progressed that far, or that technology has done all that much for it or to destroy it that we can't have some basic best practices that people can actually agree on regardless of who is making money or losing it on some product and magic. There must be a reason that Abc Xyz is actually still in print, since 1879, and I bet there is very little difference from the original until the present. Henry Taylor's manual from 1860, Frank Benton's Dept of Ag thing written in the early 1900s and Langstroth from 1853 and now Dr Leo is making money rehashing a French book in the public domain from whatever century ... 

So who is making a difference now? Palmer, Seely, Dr Leo or our current batch of YouTubers, or our local associations, or perhaps the guys here in forums like this and FB groups and such "doing it every day" making it work, and somehow possibly mentoring the next batch of up and comers. 

Inspiration is tough. Following a profit is just as tough. Many people are out there to sell books and speaking engagements. Some others have found stuff that works for them, and want to share that information. Others, well who can know someone's motivations. Palmer inspires the hell out of me. And each time I read or listen to anything he has to say I feel I come away with another nugget of information that perhaps someday I can apply or share with someone else who can. But there is no way I can see scaling what he does down to my piddling little onesie-twosie apiary. 

On the other hand Michael Bush is someone I can get inspired by.. not yet enough to buy his books today, but perhaps when I thin down my "to be read" list, or someone sends me one, or the apocalypse is over I can get my library to buy them and I will check them out to read.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

Thanks AHudd, unfortunately, from what you are saying, I am not certain what post you are responding to. But I will certainly put Snelgrove on my list. I am not certain that book is in the PD, I see lots of it for sale, with a copyright of 1935 and 1945 both of which would certainly still be protected, though if there is a legal version of a pdf online I would certainly be interested in reading it, otherwise it is on the list. I have done hands on as well as hands off, with treatments and with no treatments, with feeding and without feeding. All with about the same results. What I haven't done is attempted lots of nuc'ing and splitting and forced propogation, and opening up the broodnest. This past season was wildly different than anything I have seen before, and the weather was insane and the bees just did weird stuff. Having a single hive with no back ups just left me in a position where all I could do was throw up my hands and laugh. 

The initial plan was to take this season off, Clean and repaint everything, Harvest any remaining wax. Redo foundations. And come at it clean next year with a bunch of bait hives in hopes of catching a swarm. Started consuming my reading list, and got back into interacting on the forums and FB groups. So my plan is chill, but rather than getting information on the absolute best bait hives to use, having a whole year to build them and get things ready, I got "Hey use what you have and put stuff out there now!" So I did. 

I made some other decisions so I was coming up with building plans, but now I have to see if I am building for next year, or this year. If I get bees, I will probably keep them in the equipment I already have and decide where to go from there. So once again I am sitting on my hands. All in all, I am being pretty chill. I am of the opinion that not only am I not trying too hard, but in fact, I am not actually trying at all.  

Thanks for the reference. Forewarned is forearmed! I shall look for info from Snelgrove.


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## honeyhartbees (Jan 26, 2020)

One of the first questions I asked my mentor 3 years ago starting out, was, "How many hivesdo I need to have to be self suffucient, and not have to "buy" bees".
After thought, his answer was 10-12.
Achieved that in the 3rd year. Bought no bees. Did buy "some" queens.
After 3 + years, am just now learning how not to roll queens.
Last year, finally figured out how to "plan" for replacements ahead of time.
This year, finally feeling like I am approaching sustainability.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

honeyhartbees said:


> One of the first questions I asked my mentor 3 years ago starting out, was, "How many hivesdo I need to have to be self suffucient, and not have to "buy" bees".
> After thought, his answer was 10-12.
> Achieved that in the 3rd year. Bought no bees. Did buy "some" queens.
> After 3 + years, am just now learning how not to roll queens.
> ...


The answer I got from a professor of entomology was 35


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

Dan the bee guy said:


> The answer I got from a professor of entomology was 35


Seems excessive and wouldn't work here in NJ which would require a lot size of 3 acres or more to keep that many, based on regulations.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Dan the bee guy said:


> The answer I got from a professor of entomology was 35


Any one who has followed Douglass Adam's works knows the answer is 42:lookout::lookout: 

"How many" depends on your skills as a beekeeper and your loss rate


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

msl said:


> Any one who has followed Douglass Adam's works knows the answer is 42:lookout::lookout:
> 
> "How many" depends on your skills as a beekeeper and your loss rate


:applause:


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Absinthe said:


> I think we are in complete agreement. At least about people in general.
> 
> There is a lot of relativism here, though. I can compare 2% to 100% easily. Because if a person only has one colony he can only have 100% loss or 100% success because he doesn't have the resources to back things up. This is just how one thing relates to another when scope and scale come in to play. Also why when you say you want to kill 300 bees doing an ether roll for mite count a one hive guy cringes OMG 300 dead bees... he is not thinking that his queen just laid 15000 eggs. But none of that is the point.
> 
> ...


Whew, that is the LONGEST response ever...every beekeeper started new, some lucky enough to have a mentor, others self taught along with all the mistakes. One thing that is stable and will not change, is honey bee biology. Very simple, no philosophy needed. 
As for not finding a “hero” in your life, you probably have one right in front of you, sometimes they hide in plain sight and we can’t see them till we look away from ourselves.


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## zeeksbeees (May 28, 2020)

One hive is all you need and then do OTS.


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## Titus142 (Apr 15, 2020)

jonsl said:


> Owning a hive doesn't necessarily make a person a beekeeper. They may just be a bee haver.


We were talking about my own apiary and the difficulties I feel like I have been having this season. The conclusion we came to was this is the point where we transition from "haver" to "keeper". I now need to manage them and truly keep them. I got them through one winter, now I need to do that again, and work toward being sustainable.

I think anyone can put bees in a box and have them for a season and even pull a honey crop. There is not much you can do wrong that first year... until winter comes and you realize you weren't prepared, or you did your due diligence and still have bees in the spring! Then the real work starts.


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## zeeksbeees (May 28, 2020)

I view my bees like my cattle... they are livestock I need to mange. As soon as we bees in a box for our benefit we owe it to them to take care of their needs. An important question is why do you have bees? My cattle operation is sustainable because I can keep my herd going without buying new cows or bulls every year. Of course when they stop performing I need to “re-bull” or “re-cow”. No matter how you see it bees are amazing and fun and mysterious.


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## solarharvey79 (Jul 2, 2020)

In my opinion and based on all the research my father and I did our first year beekeeping. It made zero sense that we put bees in a 3/4" thick pine box. Its no where near what the bees choose in the wild in a 4-8" think oak tree. So we designed some prototypes, then I took it several steps further by by integrating monitoring and hyperthermia treatment capabilities. I have just launched the website www.hyperhyve.com and you can check it out for more info, and to be honest this is a shameless plug. But I built the business and patent pending product to fix a major problem. I entrepreneur with experience in sustainable home business and the first step to sustainable apiaries is a bee population that doesn't take 30-40%+ losses each season. In all my research the largest impact is an insulated hive and then proper management, but the hive you choose can make all the difference. We see 140+lbs of honey in first year packages in our hives. They thrive in the insulated hive!


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

solarharvey79 said:


> In my opinion and based on all the research my father and I did our first year beekeeping. It made zero sense that we put bees in a 3/4" thick pine box. Its no where near what the bees choose in the wild in a 4-8" think oak tree. So we designed some prototypes, then I took it several steps further by by integrating monitoring and hyperthermia treatment capabilities. I have just launched the website www.hyperhyve.com and you can check it out for more info, and to be honest this is a shameless plug. But I built the business and patent pending product to fix a major problem. I entrepreneur with experience in sustainable home business and the first step to sustainable apiaries is a bee population that doesn't take 30-40%+ losses each season. In all my research the largest impact is an insulated hive and then proper management, but the hive you choose can make all the difference. We see 140+lbs of honey in first year packages in our hives. They thrive in the insulated hive!


Where are you located ?


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## solarharvey79 (Jul 2, 2020)

Cloverdale said:


> Where are you located ?


Wisconsin.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Solarharvey79, you put it out there on an open forum, be prepared to answer the ensuing questions. It takes hard data, not wishful thinking, to convince someone who is already successful using the standard equipment. Also, you know that CCD isn't really a thing, it was a catchall for "I don't know why my hives are dying".


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## solarharvey79 (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm not here to prove what all the data of scientists of the past and published papers show in this forum. That is what the product website is for. I developed it not because I wanted a product in the beekeeping space, as a student of beekeeping and the scientific side of it, it became very obvious that there was space for a solution. I tried to buy one, but nothing that is easy to use and seamless was out there so I made one. Its not wishful thinking, if you are interested sign up online and you will get access to papers, blog posts, articles, etc. "CCD is not a thing", thats true to some degree, as it does not identify one thing. But is an identifier for habitat loss, pests, etc. All of the CCD identified reasons contribute to bees dying. In that fashion, it is a thing, and when you put sick bees in a poorly insulated hive in heat or cold, they die! Just as if you had a cold or other immune compromising condition, and we throw you outside in the winter or the heat of summer, your odds are not good.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

I do believe insulation is important.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Hi Solar H,
re: "CCD is not a thing", thats true to some degree, as it does not identify one thing. But is an identifier for habitat loss, pests, etc. All of the CCD identified reasons contribute to bees dying 

When you toss about the terms like Habitat loss, I just want to shut you out.
As far as honey bee habitat, we have like 10 times the "blooms" now, that when Columbus landed on the shores like 200+ years ago.
We have 1000s of acres of Hay that was woodland, we have way more edge, than in the past, and add in Irrigation and Orchards and there are way more blooms than the "pre habitat loss" timeframe you describe. So IMO honeybee habitat is increasing.

And be sure on your blog to mention Honeybees in The US are an Invasive species, IE man brought them here. So its "help save the invasive species.."

I would offer you actually have and keep bees for a decade or 2 then you have an informed opinion.

"We had bees for a year or 2 and they died so we are redesigning the Hive" Seems so ....... i'll be nice...

Carry on, bring your product to market, it will prove out or it won't



GG


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## solarharvey79 (Jul 2, 2020)

There is some great information from people not selling hives, (apparently that matters) that shows how beneficial bees in insulated hives do all year. Here is some of that info: 
https://semaponline.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/FAF-insulated-hive.pdf 
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1828051X.2019.1604088


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I am not disputing the value of a better, insulated hive. Nor am I concerned that you at some point will be selling them.

The "Idea" of insulated hive is not new.
A.I. Root talks about it in 1921
https://www.google.com/books/editio...q=double+walled+bee+hives&printsec=frontcover

there are a couple "new" things in beekeeping as I recall, Imaging and sensors. New in that the tech is new, we are sensing what was always there.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Solar H,
> re: "CCD is not a thing", thats true to some degree, as it does not identify one thing. But is an identifier for habitat loss, pests, etc. All of the CCD identified reasons contribute to bees dying
> 
> When you toss about the terms like Habitat loss, I just want to shut you out.
> ...


+1 from me.
As far as I can observe (right here, in Dane county, WI) - the current "intelligent" development of the land is adding to the honey bees habitat (not taking away from it). Suburbia expansion - *when combined with constructions/preservation of embedded greens zones* - is much better insect habitat compared to mono-culture corn/soy fields (the so called "green deserts").


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Solar - you should look up Dr. farrar's work from the 1930's.. He cut away the super to leave only the corners, edges and frame rests. The bees survived winter in Wisconsin. Maybe the bigger problem is something that changed since then.

Crazy Roland


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

solarharvey79 said:


> you put sick bees in a poorly insulated hive in heat or cold, they die!


Canada, somewhere North of Montreal.
Shoddy Warre hives slapped from junk and scraps.
Only one dead colony out of 60.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-mzyaoaPAE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffiJ3zolY4Q

I suggest you watch these and then sit back and think why (or why not) should anyone be buying your latest and greatest hives.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

solarharvey79 said:


> I'm not here to prove what all the data of scientists of the past and published papers show in this forum. That is what the product website is for. I developed it not because I wanted a product in the beekeeping space, as a student of beekeeping and the scientific side of it, it became very obvious that there was space for a solution. I tried to buy one, but nothing that is easy to use and seamless was out there so I made one. Its not wishful thinking, if you are interested sign up online and you will get access to papers, blog posts, articles, etc. "CCD is not a thing", thats true to some degree, as it does not identify one thing. But is an identifier for habitat loss, pests, etc. All of the CCD identified reasons contribute to bees dying. In that fashion, it is a thing, and when you put sick bees in a poorly insulated hive in heat or cold, they die! Just as if you had a cold or other immune compromising condition, and we throw you outside in the winter or the heat of summer, your odds are not good.


Take a look at Randy Oliver’s website scientificbeekeeping.com look 
under CCD. Also, I am reading a book by Steve Donohoe, “Interviews With Beekeepers”, one of them being Michael Palmer (hope you don’t mind I mentioned you Mike) who belongs to this list, does not insulate his hives but provides upper ventilation during winter; as opposed to Murray McGregor of Scotland that says winter insulation is important and the bees don’t want upper ventilation.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

solarharvey79 said:


> In my opinion and based on *all the research my father and I did our first year beekeeping*. It made zero sense that we put bees in a 3/4" thick pine box. Its no where near *what the bees choose* in the wild in a 4-8" think oak tree.


A whole year's research ... wow.

So the bees *choose* a cavity with thick walls then ? What evidence do you have that such a choice was actually made - i.e. what thin-wall cavities did they NOT choose ?

Strange how swarms frequently set up home in utility boxes, old gasoline tanks, car tyres etc - indeed, anywhere they can get out of the weather.

Tree cavities are more-or-less the ONLY cavities which existed in the natural world before humans came along, and are *still* the only natural cavity to be found in the wild. Hence bees will happily occupy them. With no choice involved. And such cavities invariably have thick walls.

This is known as a *cum hoc ergo propter hoc* fallacy - ascribing causation to what is in fact only correlation.
LJ


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

little_john said:


> <snip>
> 
> This is known as a *cum hoc ergo propter hoc* fallacy - ascribing causation to what is in fact only correlation.
> LJ


You win the internet today!!! Love when fallacious logic structures are explained.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

We know it does matter with nucs, maby not as much with larger hives or milder climes 
Dr latshaw's (JSL here) SARE project


> The polystyrene nucleus colonies achieved a 91.67% survival rate compared with approximately 25% survival rate using traditional wooden boxes in prior years.


Dr Milbrath's SARE


> The greatest survival was in the single deep hives (87%), followed closely by the Styrofoam nucs (82%). The double deeps, 4-frame towers, and full sized hives had similar rates (67%, 68%, and 63%, respectively.


 https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...510002000326/Milbrath_SustainableFallNucs.pdf



> He cut away the super to leave only the corners, edges and frame rests. The bees survived winter in Wisconsin. Maybe the bigger problem is something that changed since then.


While I its agree its "something changed"

saying the hives "survived" is a bit of a over stament they took 100% losses the 1st year and 50% the 2nd, those that lived were worthless come spring while the controls had 100% surival https://beesource.com/resources/usda/overwintering-of-honey-bee-colonies/



> Wind protection is paramount in overwintering colonies. Colonies of bees in nature tend to seek sheltered cavities in which to build their nests, primarily to protect themselves from the chilling effect of winter winds. This was emphatically demonstrated in two seasons of testing at Madison, Wis. In each of these seasons, eight colonies of similar strength and of the same stock were selected in October. Four were overwintered in conventional wooden hives without additional protection. Top 1-in (2.5 cm) auger holes were provided. The other four were placed in hive rims with cutaway sides fitted with window screening (fig. 1). Thermocouples were placed in the interspaces of the middle frames of each hive body.
> 
> 
> Temperatures within the clusters in both types of hives in both years were similar through January. Brood-rearing temperatures of 92° to 93° F (33° C) were recorded in all colonies, even with surrounding temperatures in the subzero range.
> ...


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

MSL , is that Farrar's work?

Crazy Roland


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

on 2nd pass they don't give attribution, witch is odd... same research station, but....


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## jigsaw (Jun 10, 2019)

New person: Hey look everyone, I have a new mouse trap for sale.

People: Does it catch mice better than our current methods?

New person: Not really, but I'd like to sell it to you.

People: No thanks, go away.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

MSL - I never read the research paper. It was told to my by my father. Dr. Farrar was a family friend. I was to his house as a child.

Crazy Roland


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

I tried insulating my hives for a couple of years with 1 inch R15 construction foam insulation. My bees did much better and had lower losses without it so I gave it up.


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## dekster (Jun 26, 2019)

I insulate my production hives (out of habit), but not the nucs, all do equally well over winter...


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Roland - In the 1950's the USDA ran a testing program for several years. They test with numerous thermocouples and ran a similar test in Minnesota,I believe. All the hive exposed hives died. The hive had big panels of screened windows on all sides. In the controlled environmental chamber a clustered colony could with stand incredibly low temperatures but for limited elapsed time. 

Honey bees have and do seek shelter for a reason(s).


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Interesting contrast in results Jonsi - I get much better survival and honey yields the more I improve my insulation technique. Currently working on year-round insulation techniques. 

I am having a foggy, low overhead fog and high RH every night lately, sunny after about 10:00am. I cannot figure out if it is bad or good thing.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

It looks like Owen's work in the 1950's for the USDA but I am trusting my memory.

I hav also read of large healthy colonies dying for no apparent reason. Initial laboratory investigation showed dehydration as the cause. Unfortunately the researcher died before he was able to continue his investigations.

All research prior to about 2005 lacked humidity sensors - a very important enviromental feature. I suspect you will see a whole new interpretation of data and definitions for survival and productivity of a colony.


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

Robert Holcombe said:


> Interesting contrast in results Jonsi - I get much better survival and honey yields the more I improve my insulation technique. Currently working on year-round insulation techniques.
> 
> I am having a foggy, low overhead fog and high RH every night lately, sunny after about 10:00am. I cannot figure out if it is bad or good thing.


As they say all beekeeping is local. I found that with insulation the bees become too active in Jan-Feb with nothing to forage and then use up all of their stores.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

jonsl said:


> As they say all beekeeping is local. I found that with insulation the bees become too active in Jan-Feb with nothing to forage and then use up all of their stores.


I see this too.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think there may be value in leaving an area totally uninsulated on the upper front of hive. This area surrounds the upper small exit/vent hole. Hoar frost from condensation will form on this area and provide water. It also will tell bees when it is cold outside. Bees dont fly around very darned much in temperatures less than 40F. Bees with Nosema will fly out though. Perhaps other conditions will also induce risky foraging: High mite load raises bees resting metabolism.

These 5 colonies came through 5 for 5! 

This was november. Dont insulate too early. Pictured is upper entrance/vent, about an inch by 5/16. Later reduced to about half that size. Some colonies propolized theirs like in pic. 5 if you look close, so I followed suit.

Other things may be at play when there are conclusions that insulation is not beneficial. 

The waving of tree limbs does not cause the wind to blow!


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

crofter said:


> I think there may be value in leaving an area totally uninsulated on the upper front of hive. This area surrounds the upper small exit/vent hole. Hoar frost from condensation will form on this area and provide water. It also will tell bees when it is cold outside. Bees dont fly around very darned much in temperatures less than 40F. Bees with Nosema will fly out though. Perhaps other conditions will also induce risky foraging: High mite load raises bees resting metabolism.
> 
> These 5 colonies came through 5 for 5!
> 
> ...


Can't say whether it's correlation or causation, all I know is they do better without it. Since there is significant work involved with the insulation why bother.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jonsl said:


> Can't say whether it's correlation or causation, all I know is they do better without it. Since there is significant work involved with the insulation why bother.


jonsl; your observations are probably entirely valid for your conditions.

It probably would not pay a lot of dividends in your climate; you are correct about it being some bother. I believe there have been some experiments showing the stores consumption per day at a given temperature with and without insulation. It doesnt support that a colony will use up its stores more quickly in cold climates directly because of added insulation. Perhaps without taking population and other factors into account one cannot come up with a conclusion that is correct in all circumstances.

I think there is a good possibility that bee type difference could give a different answer to the question. Whether a person has bees strongly influenced by italian genetics or leaning to carniolan habits could have quite a different experience. Excessive populations due to late brood rearing could be influenced by early wrapping of hives. Some beekeepers will deliberately do a heavy (like 4 gallons) feeding of syrup to fill the brood nest and curb brood rearing. Late brood rearing also has a potential impact on the success of many mite treatments. Just another factor that could influence winter survival

A lot of variables can feed into our observations. Admittedly my experience is with 5 or 6 month long cold winters and bees with Carni habits.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

jonsl said:


> As they say all beekeeping is local. I found that with insulation the bees become too active in Jan-Feb with nothing to forage and then use up all of their stores.


Jonsi & Cloverdale: The same is said around here. Being a Contrarian, I watched carefully by measuring the weight of my insulated hives from Nov. until May. I feed in Oct to a "winter hive weight". I have noticed some interesting things in two years. In the end consumption came out average for a very big hive that had started "early" brood rearing. She was the first to find natural pollen (I do not do patties) on March 2 (Witch Hazel?). She significantly reduced weight in April, having about 15 -20 lb. left (visual inspection) before nectar started coming in. Weight went up in May. Conclusion - troubled colonies consumed less, strong ones on schedule for the flow. Insulation saves honey, reduces stress and promotes early brood rearing - that is my claim for my environment. I still have my insulation on.

Super Woman is headed for her 2nd foraging year in a row to exceed 200 lb. of honey. 90 lb. extracted and supers are nearly full. Three others are doing very well, two are typical and three had Spring queen problems.

As Spring came I had to restrain my impulse to feed as several hives got light. Then Bingo - for the 2nd time I get Spring honey - my favorite.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Brood up too much to early is a "strain/genetic" issue and not a hive/hive insulation issue IMO

The insulation would allow for less stores consumption, less wide swings in temperature. Less need to shiver and less need for mid winter cleansing flights.
Easier movement to stores. And a larger spring nest.

"Insulation, Not working" in general, would need some investigation/ data points/ testing, for me to take it whole cloth. sounds like a one off.

GG


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Listen yo Grey Goose on the early brooding/gentics link.

Crazy Roland


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## jimbo3 (Jun 7, 2015)

Last winter was first winter I insulated top with foam insulation and lost all four hives. Coincidence? Maybe. The original two hives (split and caught swarm later) were overwintered the previous year without insulation. It was also first year I added feeder rims with mountain camp on top of frames over newspaper, so I know what the variables were, but I don't have enough hives to screw around and don't want to buy bees again, so off with the upper insulation again this winter.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

To the OP's thread title: Many have been inspired and practice a sustainable beekeeping operation, especially those that have been keeping bees for a while- hobbyists, sideliners and commercials alike.

To the insulation discussion: I keep bees 16 miles south and west of New London Ct. and winter using only a homasote board under the top outer cover in standard 3/4 pine 10 frame langs in a deep over medium configuration, with mouse guard. Make a very good crop too, very low winter losses and winter on only 50-60 lbs. Every metric described above also exists here without insulation or wrapping. Same climate. I conclude that insulation has very little to do with wintering in this climate.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Jimbo,

what were the mite counts last fall pre the winter die off?

GG


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## jimbo3 (Jun 7, 2015)

Gray Goose said:


> Jimbo,
> 
> what were the mite counts last fall pre the winter die off?
> 
> GG


Never counted but did treat in fall with Apivar.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jimbo3 said:


> Never counted but did treat in fall with Apivar.


Just thinking of your comment
Last winter was first winter I insulated top with foam insulation and lost all four hives. Coincidence? Maybe.

I do not think by adding top insulation, one could "create" 100% loss. Just wanted to understand better. Unless they ate it......

GG


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I would think that a different variable is in play. I leave my styrofoam top feeders on all my hives through winter with a feeding shim with an upper entrance immediately below. All my hives made it through the last two winters. So did the nucs that had top insulation and the ones that did not. Probably not as big of a factor as some would believe, at least here in Richmond.


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## cbay (Mar 27, 2017)

The sustainable apiary inspired me the first year i had bees. I attribute seeing that video early on and some good mentors to having success with bees in just a few short years.


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

username00101 said:


> Can we please return to my question: How does the sustainable apiary prevent swarms, and still get a good honey yield every year?


Inspect often in the spring and split the ones about to swarm. Your hive numbers will grow quickly during a good flow, giving you enough to sell some nucs, if desired. Swarmy bees are healthy bees in strong colonies with good resources. And splits grow and draw comb FAST. So be happy if you have them, but they do require supervision to keep them in your yard.

I'm still learning, but I've been completely sustainable, so far. (starting my 3rd year) Have never bought bees, besides my first hive, and between honey sales and trading bees for equipment, I'm in the green, financially. (Maybe not so much, if you consider the time I spend, but that is another story. It takes time to learn this stuff.) I've also never lost a hive in the winter, but we will see if that holds again this year.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

thill said:


> Inspect often in the spring and split the ones about to swarm. Your hive numbers will grow quickly during a good flow, giving you enough to sell some nucs, if desired. Swarmy bees are healthy bees in strong colonies with good resources. And splits grow and draw comb FAST. So be happy if you have them, but they do require supervision to keep them in your yard.
> 
> I'm still learning, but I've been completely sustainable, so far. (starting my 3rd year) Have never bought bees, besides my first hive, and between honey sales and trading bees for equipment, I'm in the green, financially. (Maybe not so much, if you consider the time I spend, but that is another story. It takes time to learn this stuff.) I've also never lost a hive in the winter, but we will see if that holds again this year.


Well it's been over 2 years since I started this, a couple years older eyes need more help. I'm still beekeeping even if I don't post much here anymore.. Over 20 hives now all home grown queens , just keep at it and love those bees.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

thill said:


> Inspect often in the spring and split the ones about to swarm. Your hive numbers will grow quickly during a good flow, giving you enough to sell some nucs, if desired. Swarmy bees are healthy bees in strong colonies with good resources. And splits grow and draw comb FAST. So be happy if you have them, but they do require supervision to keep them in your yard.
> 
> I'm still learning, but I've been completely sustainable, so far. (starting my 3rd year) Have never bought bees, besides my first hive, and between honey sales and trading bees for equipment, I'm in the green, financially. (Maybe not so much, if you consider the time I spend, but that is another story. It takes time to learn this stuff.) I've also never lost a hive in the winter, but we will see if that holds again this year.


The person you quoted has been banned.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Well it's been over 2 years since I started this, a couple years older eyes need more help. I'm still beekeeping even if I don't post much here anymore.. Over 20 hives now all home grown queens , just keep at it and love those bees.


glad you are still here.
And increasing hive count

GG


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

Tigger19687 said:


> The person you quoted has been banned.


Well, others may have the same question, so answering that question shouldn't hurt anything.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

thill said:


> Well, others may have the same question, so answering that question shouldn't hurt anything.


IMO Palmer answers it well in his Sustainable UTube.

Not watching and asking means someone needs to paraphrase the data back to the asking person.

basic answer-- bost production from NUCs and not use production Hives to do Increase.
have Nucs
Make Nucs
Use Nucs

GG


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

thill said:


> Well, others may have the same question, so answering that question shouldn't hurt anything.


I just wanted to point it out in case you were looking for a reply from them


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

Good point!


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

You don't have to split your production colonies, you can pull frames of brood.

Pull one frame of brood from 3 strong production hives, those 3 frames go in a nuc with some food, you can install a queen or let them make their own.

3 production hives kept from swarming 1 new colony in the apiary. Rinse & Repeat as needed.

When they start getting too many frames of brood, Watch Out! They will swarm.


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

Interesting idea. I will have to try pulling one frame at a time and see how that goes.

The problem in my area is that by the time it's warm enough to do a deep dive into the hives to pull brood, they have already made swarm cells. I had my first swarm this spring @ the beginning of March, while we were still getting snow and ice storms. March is a funny month around here, as it will be 65 one day, and 28 the next. I think the maples are going off by then, as they are getting a bunch of nectar from somewhere.

Last year, I crushed many, many beautiful swarm cells, but this year I plan to use them to make as many splits as they want. Planning to make up a bunch of nuc boxes, and we will see if they actually fill them up. Worst case, I'll have to figure out what to do with all of the bees. Hopefully, they will help pay for all expenditures. It's nice having a hobby that pays for itself!


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

To answer the OPs question - Because I hadn't heard of "the sustainable apiary" until I happened across this thread.

However, the idea appears to be make lots of splits, and feed your hives from the splits, or something like that.

I suppose that would work.

Everybody has different reasons for keeping bees, different constraints of time, money, and space, and different levels of commitment.

Some people are honey producers - they make no attempt to winter. They kill the bees and take all the honey every year. Put a package on drawn comb and get lots of honey. Not my ideal of beekeeping, but it is a lot simpler, as long as packages are relatively cheap. No treating, no feeding, no winter losses, no swarming to deal with.

Some people are treatment free, others want to be, still others don't care at all, just do what works.

I pretty much change my beekeeping methods and hive designs more or less continuously, but a lot of people want a recipe that they follow every year. It is easier in some respects to be flexible if you only have a few hives.

That is one of the things about beekeeping. Plenty of space for individual expression, because the bees don't care. They mostly survive in spite of our best efforts.

Enjoy your bees!


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

*To the OP:* the answer to your question can be found in the above post - someone who has watched 'The Sustainable Apiary', but has clearly failed to understand either it's core message or much of the detailed information given within that talk, and so has woefully concluded "... the idea *appears to be* make lots of splits, and feed your hives from the splits, or *something like that*. 
I *suppose* that would work".

'Failure to understand' thus results in 'failure to be inspired' ...
LJ


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

little_john said:


> *To the OP:* the answer to your question can be found in the above post - someone who has watched 'The Sustainable Apiary', but has clearly failed to understand either it's core message or much of the detailed information given within that talk, and so has woefully concluded "... the idea *appears to be* make lots of splits, and feed your hives from the splits, or *something like that*.
> I *suppose* that would work".
> 
> 'Failure to understand' thus results in 'failure to be inspired' ...
> LJ


Hey LJ, I think you missed my point. I didn't watch anything.

All I know about "The Sustainable Apiary" is from some comments on it on this thread which didn't explain it in any detail that I didn't read very carefully. Perhaps there were other posts that explained it better, but I could have missed them.

My point is not everyone is looking to be inspired or is interested in some different method of beekeeping.

And the OPs approach is unlikely to get anyone interested in "The Sustainable Apiary" - which I illustrated by an intentionally imprecise description gleaned from posts on the thread, to show the reaction a person might have to someone going on about something wonderful they don't actually describe. In this case, the discussion didn't motivate me to read (or watch) "The Sustainable Apiary", and I suppose that would be a typical response of a random person encountering this thread.

Perhaps I was too subtle (it was late, I was tired...)

It appears the OP thinks that this method (whatever it is) is the only way to avoid buying packages, which is incorrect. 

The OP appears to have made the assumption everyone has watched or read (is it a book or a video?) that a substantial majority of humanity has never heard of.

Beekeepers are an unusually individualistic lot.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

A Novice said:


> Hey LJ, I think you missed my point. I didn't watch anything.
> 
> All I know about "The Sustainable Apiary" is from some comments on it on this thread which didn't explain it in any detail that I didn't read very carefully. Perhaps there were other posts that explained it better, but I could have missed them.
> 
> ...


Pretty much just started this to try to get more people to learn more about bees. Many new beekeepers just want a recipe on what to do and it doesn't work that way. My conditions here are different from somebody that lives in the next state over. Staying clueless will never get you anywhere so learn how to make queens, how to spot problems, make increase from your bees. I can never tell you how to keep your bees cause I'll never have the same condition with my own bees. So learning what happens with your bees in your location is the way to be successful so glean what you can from others and see what you can use, you won't know what can help you unless you try.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> I didn't watch anything.



Me neither.
You are not alone.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Correct me if I am wrong but I think the reference was to Michael Palmers presentation at the national honey show called sustainable beekeeping. I did watch it and it is certainly very good. It was one of the first videos I ran across when I got bees.

I am not sure why many have not been inspired, maybe time or they are not motivated enough to search out methods and find it easier to buy in queens and nucs. But from what I read here on BS there are many many beekeepers who are sustainable and do ascribe to the method they just do not name it as such.

I have a neighbour who doesn't care to read too much so haphazardly treats on a whim, maybe maybe not, thinks swarming is awful but doesn't do any preventative measures ( too much work so I get called in ) and generally just wants bees for a little honey and to let be so to speak. As a result they seem fine to buy nucs every spring or ask for my excess bees LOL. There was one small attempt at a split in the beginning of July, but I did it for them, and after that no effort to control any queen cells in the original hive or monitor the nuc. For all I know the queen was not mated and the hive will crash and burn just like their hive did last fall and then was blamed on the wasps which showed up to clean up what was left. They ascribe to the lazy beekeeping method of no interference.

Some people want bees but don't want the bother of making their own nucs or queens so they are just fine with buying in what they need as they need it. Suits them, me, I am a too cheap.

ETA I missed the date of the OP, this thread is quite old.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> There was one small attempt at a split in the beginning of July, but I did it for them, and after that no effort to control any queen cells in the original hive or monitor the nuc.


Like I said - some bee owners after six (6) years of bee ownership are still un-able to successfully perform a simple split.

It should be honestly stated - not all students are equally capable (even though this is how they make it sound in general school).


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Yes GregB I think the sticking point for me is this is their 4th year, they started a year before me and there has been no attempt to research methods or timing. We live fairly remotely and beekeeping mentors let alone clubs are non existent so if you are not motivated to learn from books or the internet IMO it will be a long hard slog to get a functioning apiary let alone a sustainable one.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Many people are either not capable of critical thinking or not interested in engaging in it. They want answers handed to them. Beekeeping seems guaranteed to make your puzzler sore! It is also requires a lot of time spent in hot and sweaty conditions that must be done when it must be done. Does require personal discipline to deliver on many key issues.

Palmers methods are time tested in his conditions. He does not seem to clutter himself up with unnecessary gadgetry. Pretty standardized equipment and a standardized routine. I have enjoyed tinkering around with different ideas and he probably did too in the early years.

The four frame side by side nucs seem a big part of his system but a person can achieve similar results with standard equipment and division boards to rear replacement queens and get drawn comb for sustainability on a small scale. What you do have to do is be able to get bees thru winter predictably. I think there are many possible recipes for sustainability. Only a very few though for operators who commonly have 50% or more yearly mortality. That is a lot of slippage and drag to overcome on an ongoing basis.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

True enough.

The OP might have had more success with a post like:

If you are tired of buying bees and cleaning out dead-outs, you should really watch this video. (provide link)

I still wouldn't be all that interested, because I rarely buy bees, and have low winter losses.

But a lot of other people might.

One of the great frustrations of beekeeping is introducing eager people to the craft and watching their total inability to grasp the basics of bee biology and colony management.

I tried to get one woman started - she managed to kill bees reliably. She couldn't tell the difference between sealed brood and capped honey. Come to find out her glasses were broken, and her near vision was very bad. 2 years she tried to keep bees blind and didn't see why this would be a problem.


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

crofter said:


> Many people are either not capable of critical thinking or not interested in engaging in it. They want answers handed to them.


I guess I'm half way between the two. I do ask for quick answers and greatly appreciate everyone here who has helped me. You guys have saved my bacon a number of times! But I am mainly trying to learn the what's and why's of beekeeping. Trying to understand the basics so that I can eventually be competent.

That being said, by compiling all the information I've gotten from others, and adapting it to my own circumstances, I have been fairly successful, so far. Have not had any winter losses over my first two winters, and have only lost one hive ever from being queenless. I went from 2 hives to about 15, but then traded off some for equipment, so now I am at 8 hives. 

Now that I have a few more hives, it will be very interesting to see if I can keep my 100% winter survival rate going. I somehow doubt it, but we will see! The fact that some lose 30-100% of their bees concerns me. I have not watched the video mentioned, but I have been sustainable and hope to remain that way. I have no intention of ever buying bees, but maybe I should trade queens with someone in the spring, if genetic variation is as valuable as some people say. That may be another experiment I will try in the future.

This beekeeping is fascinating stuff!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

A Novice said:


> One of the great frustrations of beekeeping is introducing eager people to the craft and watching their total inability to grasp the basics of bee biology and colony management.


I think that some of those, I was one at the start, think beekeeping is a simple task that can be included with your morning coffee. 

The reality that it takes work, research and a dedication to learn something new which can still result in failure, is a shock to many.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

imho; To be successfully 'sustainable' (in any endeavor) one must absorb everything about the subject but still - "Dare to think for oneself"


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Clipping wings of a queen for swarm prevention is described in a book by Nicol Jacobi, dating back to 1568.


BernhardHeuvel,
I have made it available in modern German spelling. Any chance you would translate it into English for me? For a price?




__





X-Star Publishing Company, Beekeeping Books, The Practical Beekeeper, Better Queens, Queen Rearing Simplified, Beekeeping Naturally, Bush Bees, Foundationless Frames, Lazy Beekeeping, Top Bar Hive, Organic Beekeeping, Chemical Free Beekeeping, Treatment Free Beekeeping, Tao of Beekeeping, queens, survivor bees, long hives, natural cell size, small cell bees, small cell beekeeping, regression, natural beekeeping, Michael Bush


beekeeping, bees, michael bush




xstarpublishing.com


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Regarding sustainable apiary; I am repeating myself, my yard has been sustainable since 2016; no hive beetles, and good overwintering success and excellent honey production. Always take care of the mites, never have been a problem until this year. Actually we did not have enough pollen this year too with the weather. I learned in Dr. Jerry Bromenshenks classes that in dearths the plants will actually produce more nectar to attract pollinators to pollinate them; interesting because this was the first year that I harvested summer honey. Just not extra pollen which I learned too late. Anyway, every hive here including the top bar had PMS. Hives looked good beginning - middle of August ( did not inspect all of them), applied Hopguard 3 to knock down phoretics, had very little mite drop. Checked again after 3 - 4 weeks or so (yes late getting the Hopguard off, surgeries) and PMS. no eggs, dead emerging brood, lots of honey, some queens I thought were gone, etc. Did the provap and the mite drop was horrendous on some hives. The Hopguard did not do much at all. Banking on the weather staying good, I fed pollen Pattie’s, put out the Ultra Bee, they were bringing in natural pollen which now I think was rust spores, and the rounds of OAV every 3-4 days (weather permitting) 6 times. We left on vaca Oct 31, back 11/12. I did not open the hives. Using theFLIR I saw some had big clusters, some had small ones, but all had bees (24) except 2 ( had already lost 2) not sure who is queenless (Used F Pro on 3 big hives). Now I used APIVAR last year for the first time and rounds of OAV when broodless. This past Spring/Summer all was good till the Fall. I can’t imagine not having a sustainable apiary on top of what happened to my bees this year. They probably would have all been dead. I am not that knowledgeable as most of you guys are on honey bees, but it really isn’t that hard if you bring in genetics and have some nucs like Mike P does.


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## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

Cloverdale said:


> Regarding sustainable apiary; I am repeating myself, my yard has been sustainable since 2016; no hive beetles, and good overwintering success and excellent honey production. Always take care of the mites, never have been a problem until this year. Actually we did not have enough pollen this year too with the weather. I learned in Dr. Jerry Bromenshenks classes that in dearths the plants will actually produce more nectar to attract pollinators to pollinate them; interesting because this was the first year that I harvested summer honey. Just not extra pollen which I learned too late. Anyway, every hive here including the top bar had PMS. Hives looked good beginning - middle of August ( did not inspect all of them), applied Hopguard 3 to knock down phoretics, had very little mite drop. Checked again after 3 - 4 weeks or so (yes late getting the Hopguard off, surgeries) and PMS. no eggs, dead emerging brood, lots of honey, some queens I thought were gone, etc. Did the provap and the mite drop was horrendous on some hives. The Hopguard did not do much at all. Banking on the weather staying good, I fed pollen Pattie’s, put out the Ultra Bee, they were bringing in natural pollen which now I think was rust spores, and the rounds of OAV every 3-4 days (weather permitting) 6 times. We left on vaca Oct 31, back 11/12. I did not open the hives. Using theFLIR I saw some had big clusters, some had small ones, but all had bees (24) except 2 ( had already lost 2) not sure who is queenless (Used F Pro on 3 big hives). Now I used APIVAR last year for the first time and rounds of OAV when broodless. This past Spring/Summer all was good till the Fall. I can’t imagine not having a sustainable apiary on top of what happened to my bees this year. They probably would have all been dead. I am not that knowledgeable as most of you guys are on honey bees, but it really isn’t that hard if you bring in genetics and have some nucs like Mike P does.


Cloverdale

You may say you’re not as knowledgeable as some, but you sure did what you had to, using several products, to get on top of your mites. Nice job.

I had a similar experience with Hopguard about 5 years ago, in that I didn’t deem it very effective. Plus, it was soooo messy and I was petrified that I’d spill a drop of the oozing, brown gunk on a queen.


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## animal1x (9 mo ago)

I had not heard of M. Palmer until this thread popped up the first of this month and I did some reading and then watched his YouTube video. I have a long way to go but sustainability is exactly my goal in beekeeping. I would like to be completely self sustaining and still pull off a good honey harvest. That is a couple of years in the future. My immediate goal is to overwinter the two hives I have and make good strong splits this spring to increase my hives from two to four and maybe make a little honey while I'm at it.

I already lost one hive this year, back in the summer, so my losses for the year are at 33%. It would have been nice to be able to absorb that loss and still end up with three hives at the end of summer but I was just getting started and did not have the bees nor resources.


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