# Small Size Hive



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

I am curious as to the smallest "practical" permanent hive size.

I have seen lots of data on "Queen Nucs" and other small specialized hives. But that's not what I am after. I also saw the "Eco Bee Box" and it appears to have little real support around here. 

But I am still curious. Primarily because one of my other hobbies is 3d printing (and model aircraft building, along with woodworking, fishing, hunting, riding my Harley... yeah, my wife says the same thing).

Anyway, I have designed a 3d printed hive. But I have no idea if it would be viable or not. Not "viable" as in an economic sense, but viable as a place to permanently house a hive of bees. Whacking together 4 pieces of wood and calling it a day will always be cheaper than a 3d printed hive. But that's not where I am going with this.

The basic dimensions at the moment are 10"x10"x6.5" deep. The frame depth can very easily be changed to as much as a medium Lang or deeper, this 6.5" is just the starting point of my initial design. It is a stackable design like a Lang and would hold 7 bars 9.5" across the top and have 5.5" sidebars. Also 3d printed. 

As I said, the depth could easily be increased but the outer dimensions of the box (10x10") are pretty much constrained by the printer capabilities as I want the box to be able to be printed at one go, not assembled from pieces, and a top has to be bigger than the box itself. It is a double-wall design so a bit (a LITTLE bit) of air insulation is automatically built in, plus I am in NE Florida with warm winters. Printed out of food-safe PETG there are no worries about plastic as that is the same stuff water bottles and soda bottles are made of. PETG is also resistant to high temperatures. This could not be realistically printed in PLA.

The design can be printed on any of the popular 300x300x350 (or 400) 3d printers available now like my Artillery Sidewinder X1. Other manufacturers make similar sized machines now.

I am a new-bee beekeeper (sorry, couldn't help it) and would like the opinion of some old timers. I know bees are very adaptable creatures and can live in some rather remarkable places and do very well. But would a stack of 10x10 boxes and frames work at all ya think????

Tom


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

T_om said:


> I am curious as to the smallest "practical" *permanent hive* size.


Define "permanent hive". 

When doing this, keep in mind that you most likely mean keeping a colony in that hive through the most active colony growth period (when the colony is at its largest population).

Also keep in mind that you assumed a fixed-size hive in particular (even if you did not think of that - as it seems).


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

OK, I am not sure how to be much clearer but I will try.

"Permanent" means as permanent as any Langstroth box you set up in your apiary to raise bees and harvest honey. And like a Lang, you add more 10x10 boxes to cope with hive population growth and additional honey supers.

I'm not sure what you mean by "you assumed a fixed-size hive"... well, yes, I did. A bunch of boxes 10"x10"x whatever depth I come up with, stacked on top of each other like Langstroth hives are stacked.

Hopefully that cleared things up???

Tom


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

T_om said:


> OK, I am not sure how to be much clearer but I will try.
> 
> "Permanent" means as permanent as any Langstroth box you set up in your apiary to raise bees and harvest honey. And like a Lang, you add more 10x10 boxes to cope with hive population growth and additional honey supers.
> 
> ...


So you now mean - a box size, NOT a hive size.
Distinction is important.

Fixed size hive:









Variable size hive:


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

T_om said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "you assumed a fixed-size hive"... well, yes, I did. A bunch of boxes 10"x10"x whatever depth I come up with, stacked on top of each other like Langstroth hives are stacked.


I made personal decision of making the boxes 13.5" x 13.5" x 6.5" (internal dimension).
I would not make them smaller in any dimension for specific reasons.
At some point making boxes too small is counter-productive.
But I made them as small as reasonably possible for my own ergonomic needs.


----------



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Interesting. I think it is too small for any production hive but maybe queen rearing people might find a use for it. I don't raise queens, but for a hobbyist, it could be handy for banking a queen. Get a new queen laying before introduction, keeping an old queen going while new queen is being introduced instead of pinching her, etc. J


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

T_om said:


> The basic dimensions at the moment are 10"x10"x6.5" deep.


Actually, 10x10x6.5 internal dimension is OK (however you came up with those numbers).
Why?

Because this means you can take in a standard Langstroth deep frame which has 9 1/8" dimension - directly into your box.

This means - you can populate a stack of 10x10x6.5 boxes using a standard Lang frames without any customization (imagine you got a Lang nuc - no problem for you).

A very important point when going custom - be sure you are compatible to the most common sizing around you (that being Lang system).
You will thank yourself many times over.
And the opposite will happen if no compatibility is built-in - you will kick yourself forever.

As long as the compatibility is considered and accounted for - you are fine.

BTW, 6.5 is OK too because it fits the common Lang medium frame - meaning you can, for example, extract your custom frames using conventional extractors.


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Wow, I must not be making myself clear.

_"I made personal decision of making the boxes 13.5" x 13.5" x 6.5" (internal dimension).
I would not make them smaller in any dimension for specific reasons."_

Well, nice... but not what I asked nor what I stated as the limiting dimensions are. You can't 3d print a 13.5"x13.5" anything on a 3d printer limited to 300mmx300mm plate size. That is approx. an 11.8"x11.8". But what are the specific reasons you have but didn't mention?
-----
_"I think it is too small for any production hive but maybe queen rearing people..."_

Again, covered in the first post. I am not trying to make a queen nuc. Nor make a "production" hive except for whatever amount of honey could be made in a small square footprint, but quite high (after stacking), vertical space.
-----
_"Actually, 10x10x6.5 internal dimension is OK (however you came up with those numbers).
Why? "_

Wow, I'm sorry. Apparently my first post isn't being read by anyone for some reason. The EXTERNAL dimension of the box is constrained by the THREE D PRINTER limitations. They will only print so large and that's it.

And you said a standard Lang deep will fit in a 10" square box???? How is that going to happen when the Lang frames themselves are 19" long??? That is a physical impossibility.

I'm not worried about using ANY "standard" equipment, that isn't the goal. The goal is to THREE D PRINT a hive (stack of boxes or whatever you call a "hive" sitting in an apiary where you are) that will let a colony of bees live in, reproduce, and make honey (however little).

Tom


----------



## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

IMO you can build it whatever dimensions you like, but the smaller the box size the higher you will have to go to accommodate the brood nest and the honey flow. If you look up some of the Japanese you tube videos they have small square hives, but I believe they have a different bee and they add new boxes underneath similar to the warre hive.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I feel your pain Tom. I think what people might be getting at is that there are some rather natural cluster of brood nest sizes and layouts of honey, nectar pollen and a circular development pattern of eggs, open brood, capped brood. I dont know whether it can scale down to your proposed dimensions without upsetting normal progressions. For mating nucs that size and smaller work but usually run their cycle of getting a queen mated and a hand sized patch of brood long enough to prove the queen is not laying drone brood. They are then reset, rinse and repeat. For wintering they likely will be going into the period where the queen is not laying and brood numbers will not be increasing. Neither scenario is expected to be an ongoing colony with the four seasons events. More like an observation hive but they usually have full sized frames.

I have not used the small mating nucs but have heard some people reporting a tendency to swarm or abscond. I expect that is why your idea for an ongoing hive size is getting some static.


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

crofter said:


> I feel your pain Tom. I think what people might be getting at is that there are some rather natural cluster of brood nest sizes and layouts of honey, nectar pollen and a circular development pattern of eggs, open brood, capped brood. I dont know whether it can scale down to your proposed dimensions without upsetting normal progressions.


EXACTLY! That is the info I am looking for. Is there a "natural" limit to the core size of the living space?



> I have not used the small mating nucs but have heard some people reporting a tendency to swarm or abscond. I expect that is why your idea for an ongoing hive size is getting some static.


I do have some absconding experience unfortunately. And just had a Lang hive swarm yesterday. 

But what you brought up is just what I am looking for. The natural limit for reduced size that will allow them to live a more or less normal "hive life" in an apiary. I have actually seen a hive in the woods near my grandparents farm when I was a kid going great guns in a little hollow tree certainly no larger than about 8 or 9 inches in diameter (but several feet tall and crooked).

The only other small boxes I found were the Eco Bee Box series and as I said earlier, they don't seem to get much appreciation around here... but I don't know if that is because of shortcomings in the actual hives or the millennium man-bun Starbucks Latte clientele they are apparently targeting.

Tom


----------



## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

T_om said:


> And you said a standard Lang deep will fit in a 10" square box???? How is that going to happen when the Lang frames themselves are 19" long??? That is a physical impossibility.


GregB answered that above. "standard Langstroth deep frame which has 9 1/8" dimension" In other words, turn it 90 degrees and it will fit perfectly in a stack of three 10" x 10" x 6.5" boxes.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

T_om said:


> Wow, I'm sorry. Apparently my first post isn't being read by anyone for some reason.


Look, just as well you did not digest the answers.
Oh well.
Your project.
You are the asker here.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Back of the napkin figuring here I'd say you'll need 5 boxes tall for the broodnest area alone. You might be able to get away with just 4, maybe. I think 5 will do nicely though. Honey storage would be added box by box on top of that. And the bees would not mind at all, but how high is too high for you to manage inspecting and pulling honey?


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Five high at the current 6.5" depth would only be about 32" which is certainly within the realm of "doable". A bit over 3 Lang deeps. The weight would, of course, be negligible in a 10x10 box.

Tomorrow I will post some photos of the CAD drawings I have started. Perhaps this would be best and less confusing as much for me as anyone else.  I didn't even visualize what Greg meant when he posted about deeps fitting a few messages back.

And I am still concerned about what Crofter posted. He hit the thing at the core and that is a dimension I would really like to know.

Until tomorrow then.

Tom


----------



## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

I think it depends on where you are at. If you have a year round flow you can run much smaller hives than somewhere with a long hard winter that needs lots of stores


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Keep in mind you are talking dimensions of 10x10x6.5, where as a Langstroth 10 frame deep is 16x20x9.6 or so. I was comparing by cubic inches of space even tho using outside dimensions. You'll need 5 boxes to get you the space that a single 10 frame deep lang gives, well, unless my math is wrong. Plus we don't need to be exact in the measurements really. Anyway, five boxes for brood nest should be doable.


----------



## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

T_om said:


> Tomorrow I will post some photos of the CAD drawings I have started.


Perhaps you can turn the model and print longer box. The volume of brood section should be approximately as volume of LR deep box. For practical reasons it is better if only two boxes are for brood, that means volume of box should be half the volume of LR deep box.


----------



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I wrote the following last night (in a text editor) but was then too tired to log-on and post it. Seems overnight much of what follows has already been answered - but here it is anyway ...


> And you said a standard Lang deep will fit in a 10" square box???? How is that going to happen when the Lang frames themselves are 19" long??? That is a physical impossibility.


Simple - rotate the frame through 90 degrees, so that it's in portrait format rather than landscape.

Ok - with regard to your hive's feasibility, the measurements that really matter are the hive volume and the size and number of the *combs* within it.

10"x 10" appears to be an external measurement. So what is that internally: 8.5"x 8.5" ? Then there's the frame to take into account. So what's left for the combs: maybe 7.5" ? That would be 6 combs at 7.5"x 5.5(ish)" per box. Small.

Ok, let's say you produce a box 8.5"x 8.5" x 7" (internal). That would be 506 cu.in. or 8.3 litres - 5 boxes then being required for a basic 40L hive body (plus supers).

The hive body would then be 35" high, plus bottom board assembly. Add (say) 3 supers, that would total 56", plus bottom board and whatever you're placing at the top. Let's say 5ft - perhaps just a tad more.

With such a height and small footprint, I'd be looking for some kind of external support. If this could be arranged, I'd say it's do-able (just) in Britain, or anywhere where there's a relatively poor nectar flow. In areas with an abundant flow, I'd say the hive would be too small.

Thinks: have you considered 3D-Printing halves or quarters of boxes, and then gluing (or plastic-welding)* (*)* those parts together ?
'best,
LJ

* (*) *or even using small (6mm dia. ?) s/s bolts to hold them together.. Any tiny remaining gaps would quickly be sealed with propolis. Maybe there a Patent there ? LOL


----------



## bensbienen (Jul 31, 2020)

There are hives available here and often used called 'Mini Plus'. There are available in wood, but they are originally made from styrofoam and the lid is not bigger than the boxes themselves. 
See: https://www.holtermann-shop.de/Ablegerkaesten/Styroporbeute-Mini-Plus/

Even though they are build for queens rearing their are meant for 'permanent' residence of the bees. You can just split them easily whenever you have a new queen to be mated. The outside dimensions are about 12 inches square. (30 cm) They work ok, but are a pain in the butt to work with. To get to the 40 - 60 Liter volume the bees need at minimum you have to stack several of them about each others, which gets unstable. Also you need to have and prepare a massive about of frames and you also have to look through all those boxes when you need to find the queen or want to check for something.

As for the bees: So far they haven't written a letter of complaint about the Mini Plus hives, yet they hardly do that, don't they? What comes to mind is that the queen often has to switch the frames and brood frames are often just full of brood without any food or pollen on them. I guess that makes logistics for the bees harder, as they normally don't do that in hives where they have for space and can build like they want to.

Another thing to consider is isolation. The wooden version of the Mini Plus hives are not meant for overwintering as the isolation is not good enough. The smaller the volume the bigger is in relation the surface, so there is more surface to lose heat with.

The ultimate question is: What's your goal with the new hive design? From what I read I'm under the impression that you just want to 3D-print a hive for the sake of printing a hive. There are many things that can be done using 3D Printing in beekeeping, but a full hive, that is unpractically small, doesn't make much sense to me.


----------



## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

GregB said:


> I made personal decision of making the boxes 13.5" x 13.5" x 6.5" (internal dimension).
> I would not make them smaller in any dimension for specific reasons.
> At some point making boxes too small is counter-productive.
> But I made them as small as reasonably possible for my own ergonomic needs.


Is there a thread(s) for that specific size hive?

Went back to the OP and his 10" x 10" is external which negates a bunch of advice given here. Since 300 mm is almost 12" a 10" internal should be possible...


----------



## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

I must agree with T-om, the OP's frustration with getting answers to questions, some responders even admitting they have no experience, but are still willing to give their opinions. wasupwidat? Often times, it is only too obvious that some folks are chiming in b4 reading the text they are responding to....so it goes.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Just make sure that the frames fit into your honey extractor if you use one


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Some really informative posts since last night, thanks.

As promised, here is a photo of my PROTOTYPE (unfinished) first draft.

I slightly increased the size to accommodate seven 35mm bar widths while keeping within the maximum plate size of my 3d printer..

The external box is now 272mmx272mmx200mm, which is about 10.7"x10.7"x7.8mm

Several points you guys brought up are valid and illustrate the difficulty I also see myself.

1 Stability. These cannot just be stacked up on a couple of concrete blocks and left. My solution is a metal fence post driven into the ground with 3d printed quick attachments. Attachments that can be rotated out of the way to unstack the boxes. They are under development as we speak.
2. Inspection: Yeah, a lot of boxes are going to have to be moved to inspect the hive all the way to the bottom... but they are tiny boxes.  This won't be like unstacking 8 or 10 deep Langs.
3. I was very interested in seeing those Mini Plus boxes *bensbienen *posted. 30cmx30cm is the build plate on most of these 3d printers that are still in the fairly economical price ranges.
4. Overwintering: My design will NOT overwinter in cold climates without being wrapped with pretty thick insulation. But I am in Florida and it is flip-flops and shorts almost year round here. So I'm not worrying about something I don't have to worry about.  Heat is more of a problem here than cold and these will be double sided air-gap white boxes to help with that.
5. Frames: No worries about building frames. They too will be 3d printed. Which brings us to print time. I don't know how many of you are 3d printing enthusiasts but some things take a LONG time to print. I have done many very long prints and this box is no exception. Depending on your printer the box alone will take up to 36 hours or so to print. This time is easily reduced with large nozzle sizes but I just run 0.4mm nozzles and that is the time it would take me.
But as with all 3d printing, that is machine time, not YOUR time. All you have to do is load the machine, press a button, then come back and pick up the part when it is done. You have almost zero YOUR time invested, just machine time.

Once again, this project is for merely seeing if the concept will work. They are building 3d printed HOUSES now, so why not a beehive?

Thanks again for all the input folks.

Tom

PS: 
Little_John said: " _Thinks: have you considered 3D-Printing halves or quarters of boxes, and then gluing (or plastic-welding)* (*)* those parts together ?
'best,"_

Yep. I have already 3d printed a full size Lang medium box, held together with splines and superglue.


----------



## bensbienen (Jul 31, 2020)

T_om said:


> 2. Inspection: Yeah, a lot of boxes are going to have to be moved to inspect the hive all the way to the bottom... but they are tiny boxes.  This won't be like unstacking 8 or 10 deep Langs.


The problem isn't weight, but where to put the boxes during inspection. You have to take them down and put them next to the hive. That confues the bees as they are suddenly not where they used to be. The more boxes are scattered around or stacked in a new order the more confusion. So the bees fly around trying to figure out where every one else is and what to do next. Some bees ultimately come to the conlusion that 'stinging the mamal' is a good option. That's how I learned that bee-suits are not a 100% sting proof.


----------



## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

I think 3D printing a hive is a pretty cool idea. I’d be surprised if the smaller size of your hive bodies ends up being an issue for the bees. They’re fairly resourceful and adaptive, they tend to use whatever space is available to them. If you follow the bee space rules with the frames I can see it working quite well, possibly.
If I may be so bold, I would recommend altering the top side of the boxes that don’t accommodate the frame rest with some sort of a positive alignment design. A simple, centered trapezoidal protrusion half the thickness of the box side and a small recess on the bottom side would be a nice feature since the size constraints of the printer will necessitate a good number more boxes stacked than standard equipment requires. Even if it’s only a 1/4” tall or so protrusion I think it could save you a lot of trouble during your experimentation. 
I wouldn’t really worry about things like the equipment being able to accommodate standard Lang frames in alternative orientations. I know everyone will say the directionality of the slope on a honey comb doesn’t matter to the bees and I know they will certainly use old comb in any orientation, but they ALWAYS, with extremely limited exception (queen cells, burr comb, the very bottom of a comb that doesn’t have a physical stopping point), build it in the same orientation when they’re given the blank canvas to make it themselves.
I’m also curious about a few things if you don’t mind taking the time to answer. 

Does the material have a strong odor after the printing process? And, if so, is it persistent?
How robust (hardness, brittleness, etc.) is the material? The bees will 100% guaranteed glue the frames to the boxes and the boxes to one another. Can the material withstand repeated prying with a hive tool?

I’d absolutely experiment around with it if I had a printer. I hope you enjoy the synergy of two different hobbies.

Matt


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Hello Matt,

The box will have half-circle raised "dimples" at the upper corners to register with half-circle inset domes on the bottom corners. Much like I use registration keys when I mold things out of fiberglass.

The material is PETG. It is the same plastic that bottled water, soda pop, and a host of other food products come in. No smell and food safe.

PETG is relatively temperature resistant, The Tg is 80°C (176°F). So it will hold up to any temperatures found in a beehive. The hardness is R 106, so plenty durable enough. I am running 3d printed PETG top bars in my top bar hive right now. The bees don't care. 

Tom


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

It's only very seldom that a hive needs inspecting all the way to the bottom. I myself, once I see enough then I stop. Once the combs are drawn and the brood pattern has been seen then inspecting to the bottom never happens unless I suspect problems down there from what's seen above.


----------



## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Lots of place to have to look for queen cells!

Or is this intended to be a swarm volcano?


----------



## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

Right on Tom. Sounds like it’ll be a very fun few years of experimentation. Definitely keep us apprised of results, any unforeseen issues and successes. I’m certainly interested in seeing how it works out.

Matt


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

JustBees said:


> Lots of place to have to look for queen cells!


That is true. More boxes will have to be removed to do an inspection of the entire hive. But the number is not unreasonable. I agree that is one of the drawbacks to the small footprint. But once again, they are small boxes. It will be easier to unstack 5 of these than 3 Langs. 



> Or is this intended to be a swarm volcano?


Swarms are swarms. My Lang swarmed a few days ago. I don't care. I'm not a professional beekeeper, just a guy with two backyard hives. As long as THE HIVE continues on, they can leave whenever they feel the urge.

I will be adding one more top bar hive because my initial plan was to have two top bar hives only... but my daughter, bless her heart, heard I was wanting to keep bees and sent me an entire 8-frame Lang kit from Amazon as a gift. So now I have an unintended and unwanted Lang in the mix. But unintended things happen in life and I am not tossing out a daughter's gift. So I named the hive for her (and 3d printed her name on the hive) and kept on truckin' as the saying goes. 

But as I said in an earlier post, I like 3d printing stuff. Thus the thought came to me of MAYBE one more hive. A small box, small footprint, mini-hive. So here I am trying to get information from people like you that know a lot more than I know.

My hives have 3d printed parts already. "Guardian" small hive beetle entry blockers are ten bucks apiece, for a few grams of PLASTIC... so I 3d printed my own for about 39 cents each. They are installed on both my Lang and top bar hive (see photos). The top bar hive lid lifts up with a 3d printed handle on 3d printed hinges and the bars themselves are 3d printed. The EMT tubing holding the top bar hive to the vertical steel posts are connected to the hive with 3d printed hold-down straps. I also 3d printed several feeders.

So, "swarm volcano"??? OK, so what?

Tom


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

So Tom ,
another idea
frames of the Lang size already mentioned are somewhat the standard here in the US.
NUC going in or out of your design would allow bees sales if you do well.

what if you printed the "END" only with a U shaped protrusion for the side wall to slide in.
The a straight cut, 2 ish inch wood slice would slide into the end you created and make the unit "standard" frame size and you would still be in the size constraints of your printer. As the sides are longer than the end it should allow standard frames, less then 1/2 made of the PEG stuff which I assume is ls more costly than a wood board of the same size.
could be printed laying on the outside side well with in the size of the printer bed .
so a 6 5/8 end of 5 , 6 or 7 frame width , I think would be doable.

just tossing an idea on the table, "partial printed hive" BTW the ends would be easier to ship than the whole box. If you get orders.

GG


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

T_om said:


> Swarms are swarms. My Lang swarmed a few days ago. I don't care





T_om said:


> So, "swarm volcano"??? OK, so what?


Most keepers try to be responsible.
with the current old growth trees mostly cut down for timber, "cavities" tend to be walls, eves, hollow spaces in homes garages and barns. google "honey bee cut outs" many 100's are done each year.
and some of these home owners can be allergic, so taken to the extream the, so what, could be a gasping home owner in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. seems others paying the price, so your tiny hive can scratch your itch, may be considered irresponsible. or genius, depending on ones point of view.

GG


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> Most keepers try to be responsible.


Um, so any beekeeper that has a swarm leave is not "responsible"? Really???? 

OK, just for info purposes could all here that have had a swarm leave please raise your hands? I need to identify all those irresponsible folks right away.



> ...with the current old growth trees mostly cut down for timber, "cavities" tend to be walls, eves, hollow spaces in homes garages and barns. google "honey bee cut outs" many 100's are done each year.
> and some of these home owners can be allergic, so taken to the extream the, so what, could be a gasping home owner in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.


Wow, hopefully the world will not end since my Lang swarmed a few days ago. I will carefully watch the news bits tonight for the "Thousands Massacred By Bees In Jacksonville Florida! More News At 11:00!" story. 



> ...seems others paying the price, so your tiny hive can scratch your itch, may be considered irresponsible. or genius, depending on ones point of view.


I prefer "genius", thanks.

Tom


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Hello Goose,



Gray Goose said:


> So Tom ,
> another idea
> frames of the Lang size already mentioned are somewhat the standard here in the US.
> NUC going in or out of your design would allow bees sales if you do well.


Thanks, but the goal here is not sales nor is it to conform to already available parts. My goal is a hive completely 3d printed. No wood involved at all. Just load the files on your printer and push a button.



> ....PEG stuff which I assume is ls more costly than a wood board of the same size.


I have not mentioned costs yet so thanks for bringing it up. Yes, this little hive will cost more when 3d printed than a knocked together 10x10 box made of scrap wood. Currently (and this is VERY early in the process) the 3d printed box and the 3d printed frames of that single box should cost about $15.00 to $20.00 depending on the choice of the PETG spools. 3d printer filament cost, like everything else in this world, varies from one manufacturer to another.

But again, the goal is not "make the cheapest hive possible" but "make a completely 3d printed hive".



> just tossing an idea on the table, "partial printed hive" BTW the ends would be easier to ship than the whole box. If you get orders.


But these hives would never be shipped. They would arrive in your email inbox.  You would get several .stl files which you would read into your slicer program, spit out the GCODE, then load into your printer. Untouched by human hands until your own printer made them before your eyes. 

Ah well, still just an idea.

Tom


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

T_om said:


> OK, just for info purposes could all here that have had a swarm leave please raise your hands? I need to identify all those irresponsible folks right away.


Some leave agree, however, I care and try to prevent every one, It is not my standard process to just make swarms to go off into the bush 



T_om said:


> Um, so any beekeeper that has a swarm leave is not "responsible"? Really????


that is not the point I was making, Any keeper who says "who cares" and who is making a small hive , just to use the new printer, which will swarm a lot, and to that say so what, clearly show what his intentions are.



T_om said:


> I prefer "genius", thanks.


I figured you would need an "out"

I guess it was the attitude about the swarming, I was commenting on.
Did not intend to anger you , just was trying to help you to not be "that guy" in your neighborhood.

carry on, clearly your needs out weight any other ones.

we will have to agree to disagree.
I start a project with the end in mind, you clearly do not think that way or care so fine, I can be ok with that.

good luck printing swarm volcanos, I hope you secede beyond your wildest dreams, really you being happy is the most important thing , , right

GG


----------



## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

Smh. Why does it always come down to roundabout poor character insinuations? Dude is trying to get some advice on a neat idea he has and next thing ya know he’s the most irresponsible person on the planet and will bring forth the allergic reaction apocalypse. I think the Spartans would have had a great response to this… “If”. 
Not every hobbyist has the time to open their hive every week and scan every frame for swarm cells. Swarms happen, always have, always will. If Tom was saying, “Hey, I got this great idea to cram 3# pound packages into a space for 2# of bee”. Then yeah, that could be called a little irresponsible, imo. But it seems like he is fine with stacking boxes every few weeks if that’s what the bees can use and defend. The bees won’t care. It’s not there is such a thing as Lang only bees. I love the standardization of Lang equipment and use it myself, doesn’t mean everyone else has to do as I do.
Enjoy the process Tom. Have fun with it. If it works, that’s freaking awesome. If it doesn’t, now ya know. Don’t sweat people trolling with passive aggressive dispersions of your character who say they’re “not intending to anger you”.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

NUBE said:


> Smh. Why does it always come down to roundabout poor character insinuations? Dude is trying to get some advice on a neat idea he has and next thing ya know he’s the most irresponsible person on the planet and will bring forth the allergic reaction apocalypse. I think the Spartans would have had a great response to this… “If”.
> Not every hobbyist has the time to open their hive every week and scan every frame for swarm cells. Swarms happen, always have, always will. If Tom was saying, “Hey, I got this great idea to cram 3# pound packages into a space for 2# of bee”. Then yeah, that could be called a little irresponsible, imo. But it seems like he is fine with stacking boxes every few weeks if that’s what the bees can use and defend. The bees won’t care. It’s not there is such a thing as Lang only bees. I love the standardization of Lang equipment and use it myself, doesn’t mean everyone else has to do as I do.
> Enjoy the process Tom. Have fun with it. If it works, that’s freaking awesome. If it doesn’t, now ya know. Don’t sweat people trolling with passive aggressive dispersions of your character who say they’re “not intending to anger you”.


Maybe Tom can make his process better, different, optimized, whatever, thanks to expressed opinions? This is a discussion forum, right?


----------



## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

With so many more damaging things we humans are responsible for......need we say more?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

In some locations casting swarms has much greater significance then others. I live within town limits and am known as probably the only one with bees; there are no ferals here. In some areas there are so many people with bees and feral bees are common: Easy to say, "not my bees"! Swarms and removals can be very upsetting and expensive. In my opinion to be cavalier about allowing your bees to swarm is bad PR and irresponsible indeed. That is why I gave a to Gray Goose post.

Nube;
I feel your exaggeration lessens your credibility. This is a forum to discuss things. Lets not try to instigate piling on. Dont be fanning a smoulder!


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> I hope you secede beyond your wildest dreams...


OK, I am dying here. My wife just asked why I choked on my coffee. Haven't laughed so much all week. 

Maybe you need to read that again, you might get a giggle or two yourself. 

We all need to smile at ourselves from time to time.

Tom


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> Maybe Tom can make his process better, different, optimized, whatever, thanks to expressed opinions? This is a discussion forum, right?


that was my take, my offer was a size to use the most standard frame size in the US, and still have it fit his printer. if you come to a beekeeping forum and ask for opinion, then when 100 years worth of beekeeping experience suggests the "frame size matches nothing in the real world, and the size is a bit small and may send off many swarms, and the answer is *who cares*. sorry I guess I do.
then is is pointed out about bee allergies and bee inside dwelling issues, and again, the experience is met with what ever that was called, hate to mis characterize it............ 
so Tom sorry we could not edify your idea. 
there are several frame size threads, and several hive size and hive style threads so if you wished to learn about bee keeping, there is much to glean here at BS IMO.

one thing you may find out, is most keepers do not play in the sandbox of putting lipstick on a pig, if the idea has issues we can and do offer, the opinions you initially asked for. WHY ask if you did not intend to at least accept the answers. you still can make your swarm volcanos, many would say wow neat....those who have had 100's of hives , did many cutouts and rushed family members to the hospital, not so much...

I googled "sugar coated answers for folks who wish to 3D print all things bees" unfortunately I did not find sites willing to ou and ah over your printed hive. the good news here is the absence of a site means, you can start one. I can even in the spirit of helping, offer you a site name, I did check and it is available *We Bee 3D *

there is a thread here on BS on printing mating NUCs so some traction can already be seen, go for it.

With your new site I'm sure you can make bank on this.

With all the respect due.

GG


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

NUBE said:


> Don’t sweat people trolling with passive aggressive dispersions of your character who say they’re “not intending to anger you”.



Thanks Nube, but all's well. I am retired military, Navy 26 years, and retired as CWO4. It takes more than random internet wrangling to anger me. 

I think I will imprint "Swarm Volcano" into the sides of these boxes just for s__ts and grins. THAT's a catchy phrase and I like it. By the way, thanks for that Goose.

Tom


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

T_om said:


> OK, I am dying here. My wife just asked why I choked on my coffee. Haven't laughed so much all week.
> 
> Maybe you need to read that again, you might get a giggle or two yourself.
> 
> ...


Tom
here is a 3D thread.
Maybe something will help you
*Unboxing the Johno inspired, L Bussy re-engineered & 3-D printed mating nuc masterpiece mini !!! 🐝*

as well go to the top of the page in the search bar and type 3D
several members have 3D and maybe they can offer some help direct in a PM

Later

GG


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Thanks Goose, but I don't need any help with 3d printing. I have been doing it for years. And as I said many times already, just 3d printing queen nucs is not what I'm after. Indeed, there are several of those posted here and there on the internet already, Thingiverse.com and other sites included.

I wish I could have gotten more responses to the "core size" question, which is what I really posted this thread searching for. Crofter brought that up way back on page one of this saga... but no one came in with any actual data. There has to be a "golden rule" for comfortable (for the bees) area for brood and honey production. I can't believe that it has not been scientifically researched SOMEWHERE over the past centuries of beekeeping.

Auburn University has an extensive bee research program, I might try and find out some info there.

Tom


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

T_om said:


> Thanks Goose, but I don't need any help with 3d printing. I have been doing it for years. And as I said many times already, just 3d printing queen nucs is not what I'm after. Indeed, there are several of those posted here and there on the internet already, Thingiverse.com and other sites included.
> 
> I wish I could have gotten more responses to the "core size" question, which is what I really posted this thread searching for. Crofter brought that up way back on page one of this saga... but no one came in with any actual data. There has to be a "golden rule" for comfortable (for the bees) area for brood and honey production. * I can't believe that it has not been scientifically researched SOMEWHERE over the past centuries of beekeeping.*
> 
> ...


Probably has not bee scientifically researched but the way beekeepers seem to try or encounter just about everything conceivable to house bees in I expect every size has been tried and those found workable are on record. I have seen lots of articles on hive size on British forums and how it was found beneficial to go to something larger when the native bee was replaced to a great extent by Italian and Carniolan bees. I believe there was some mention about tendency to swarm off in the queen castle sized mating nucs if you did not keep the brood level low. I think perhaps you are not finding these predictive clues because you do not want it to be true.

Are you perhaps on the path of creating a "Bonsai" beehive? Quite an art, but if I remember correctly they take a fair bit of manipulating to keep them from reverting to an inherent behaviour. 

I dont doubt you are well versed on the theory and mechanics of 3D printing. On the theory and mechanics of beekeeping, perhaps not so much. With the experience you have, I am surprised that you are surprised, at the lack of enthusiasm you have met. 

Are you are trying to shoehorn a foot into a smallish sized boot?

How about making up something quick and dirty out of particle board or such and put some bees into it and see if that sizing creates problems to keep them so.


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

crofter said:


> I think perhaps you are not finding these predictive clues because you do not want it to be true.


Nope. I learned a LONG time ago, and the hard way, that self-justification is not a pretty road to travel for any reason at all.



> Are you perhaps on the path of creating a "Bonsai" beehive? Quite an art, but if I remember correctly they take a fair bit of manipulating to keep them from reverting to an inherent behaviour.


You are very close there. Perhaps this idea IS to create a bonsai hive. I had an idea that was exactly what the commercial Eco Bee Box was all about. But I still haven't seen any scientific data defining their "inherent behavior" in small hives yet.



> I dont doubt you are well versed on the theory and mechanics of 3D printing. On the theory and mechanics of beekeeping, perhaps not so much.


Which is exactly why I am here looking for information.



> With the experience you have, I am surprised that you are surprised, at the lack of enthusiasm you have met.


I am at an age where very little surprises me and nothing ever posted here could. I've already seen the elephant, so there's that. And I disagree about the lack of support so far. There have been several encouraging posts by a variety of people and only two posters dead set against the idea from the very first.




> Are you are trying to shoehorn a foot into a smallish sized boot?


Maybe. And although they might pinch your toes, even small boots are much better when walking over hot rocks than bare feet. Sometimes some things, although not "perfect", are good enough.




> How about making up something quick and dirty out of particle board or such and put some bees into it and see if that sizing creates problems to keep them so.


I can draw up the prototypes and just print them. I would learn more that way. And it would be no actual "work" at all, just time.

Tom


----------



## AVoit (9 mo ago)

Hi Tom,

There has been quite a few research and studies done to determine the PREFERED cavity size chosen by the bees as a nest site. I am an apicentric beekeeper and I have read a lot about this over the past few years. This is about what bees prefer and it also mean it is the ideal size for their optimal performance at surviving. Feral bees do not have the problems that managed colonies do. There is far, very far less diseases in feral colonies. The latest research done by Thomas Seeley brings forth evidences that colony health and hive size correlates in some way, and this is among other factors of course.

Research tells us that bees prefer cavity sizes between 20 and 40 Liters (5 to 10 gallons). They will almost always reject a cavity over 90 liters. Yet they may choose cavities as small as 8 liters. Keep in mind that when bees choose a nest site they don't expect it to expand in volume in the future.
What I have learned is that for us beekeepers it is very difficult to manage our bees in hives that are not too large for the bees. This is due to a very long list of management practices that are not natural to the bees, but that we have become accustomed to.

Google "Tom Seeley" if topics on apicentric beekeeping interest you. He has done many talks that you can find on YouTube.


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Hello AVolt,

That is a very large range of cavity volume. Very large. My latest size version of the primary box is just over 11 cubic liters. According to your numbers, that box size is not very small after all.

And keep in mind, this project is not aimed at producing the most honey, or rearing the most queens, or making the most nucs. Not the most of anything really. Just making and raising a small backyard beehive for a hobbyist with a 3d printer.

Tom


----------



## AVoit (9 mo ago)

T_om said:


> Hello AVolt,
> 
> That is a very large range of cavity volume. Very large. My latest size version of the primary box is just over 11 cubic liters. According to your numbers, that box size is not very small after all.
> 
> ...


Hi Tom, It may seem like a wide volume range but when the bees are seeking a nest cavity they consider many factors beside volume. Entry size and the height of the entry in relation to the ground are other important factors. Also the distance from other honeybee nests is another factor. The reason why there is a range is because the limited choices. If the bees were driven to only seek within a narrow range, in almost all cases they would never find a nest site.

11 liters is on the smaller side but within the range.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

https://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/cellcount.htm may help *how many sq inches of comb* one needs for *brood from 21 days brood cycle*.

*1 sq inch of brood needs 3 sq inches of comb for hatched nurse bees.*

There are still alive bees from the previous brood cycle. They need space, too.

So Tom, how many frames do you need if your queen lays* 2000 eggs per day*?


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

There will be about 130 sq. in. on each frame (counting both sides) and there are 7 frames per box. There are about 170 sq. in. on a medium Lang frame (counting both sides) and 8 frames per box in my current 8-frame Lang. A difference, but not a huge amount of difference.

So my 3d printed box and frames will have a total area of 910 sq. in. available for comb as opposed to a medium 8-frame Lang having 1360 sq. in. So I will need almost exactly three boxes for every two boxes of medium Langs, again comparing to a 8-frame Lang which I think everyone will agree works quite well. I see many people running mediums instead of deeps nowadays, especially hobby keepers. And I see a lot of 8-frame hives too.

The two Lang boxes would be a bit over 13" high, while my boxes would be just over 23" high.

This is looking better and better.

Tom


----------



## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

A swarm volcano is not necessarily a bad thing. That is a bee swarm producing machine, every time that thing belches you are another colony to the good if you can catch them!


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

T_om said:


> Hello AVolt,
> 
> That is a very large range of cavity volume. Very large. My latest size version of the primary box is just over 11 cubic liters. According to your numbers, that box size is not very small after all.
> 
> ...


4 of the 11 stacked would get to 44 liter.
I presume they can be made to stack.

GG


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> 4 of the 11 stacked would get to 44 liter.
> I presume they can be made to stack.
> 
> GG


Yes, they will be stackable. Each box will have registration "keys" that allow precise stacking one on top of the other. 

Stacked 4 high, the stack would be a bit over 31 inches high. That isn't an unreasonable height, at least to me, but I don't know much.

And according to the info AVolt posted (20 to 40 liter bee preference) even a stack of 3 would be in the "recommended" range.

Tom


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

A broodnest will require 2- 8 frame medium boxes, and during swarm season, 3 is better. As I said before with your original figures at the start of this thread, you'll need 4-5 of your boxes, probably closer to 5, just for the broodnest. I think your 3d hives will do well, probably much better than some posting here might think. Bees do tend to want to move vertical once they've reached a certain horizontal size. The height of the hive will have to also include whatever type of stand you are going to use, if you are using any kind of stand at all. Good luck to you, I'll be waiting anxiously for your reports throughout the season. Now go get printing so you can get some bees in a box.


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

I was sitting around pondering, considering, thinking, etc. Vertical is nice, but how about long (and small) hives?

So I sketched up this. This can be 3d printed in sections of 7 bars each. The photo shows a 21 bar hive. Add another middle section, ya got 28 bars.

It can hold either plain top bars or the frames shown. Each frame has 146 sq. inches of area compared to 170 on a medium Lang frame.

The sections are splined together and should be very strong, but it will need to sit on a base of some sort even if a couple of 2x4's.

Since Goose named the vertical version the "Swarm Volcano" and this one spreads out horizontally, I'll call it the "Lava Flow". 

I included a shot of my 3d printed hive entrances, including Small Hive Beetle excluder, Queen Excluder, Vent, and plain Cap. They all fit the same screw pattern.

Tom

PS: Anyone know how to change the topic title? I forgot to include 3d Printed in the title to help with searches.


----------



## Shann (9 mo ago)

T_om said:


> I am curious as to the smallest "practical" permanent hive size.
> 
> I have seen lots of data on "Queen Nucs" and other small specialized hives. But that's not what I am after. I also saw the "Eco Bee Box" and it appears to have little real support around here.
> 
> ...


It sounds logical to me. I've tried a variety of hive styles and seems the bees adjust to what you give them. But what you are talking about sounds similar to a Warre hive. His boxes were 12 x 12 od because according to his calculations that would be close to the average space found inside a hollow bee tree. At about 8 1/4 deep he stacked 4 boxes and a quilt box and his bees did quite well. As long as your 3d print material keeps them warm thru winter it should be fine. And I noticed you said it's double walled and you are in Florida so I think it sounds like a good plan.


----------



## oldsap (May 1, 2016)

I don't know why you would want to 3d print with plastic when wood is available. Don't try to reinvent the wheel, invent something worthwhile instead.


----------



## Gir (Oct 6, 2016)

T_om said:


> I am curious as to the smallest "practical" permanent hive size.
> 
> I have seen lots of data on "Queen Nucs" and other small specialized hives. But that's not what I am after. I also saw the "Eco Bee Box" and it appears to have little real support around here.
> 
> ...


That would bee a 5-frame hive, either Med. or Deep.
I keep both and they do fine (I'm in Austin Texas and have mild winters..so, keep that in mind), If I double and triple them up, they get through winters even better!


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

oldsap said:


> I don't know why you would want to 3d print with plastic when wood is available. Don't try to reinvent the wheel, invent something worthwhile instead.


Then you didn't read the thread. The idea from the start was to 3d print the entire hive... box, lid, bottom, frames, top bars, etc.

The size question even started because of the footprint of commonly available 3d printers and their size limitations. No wheels are being re-invented here and one of my other hobbies is woodworking, most of the furniture in our home... I built.

I don't want to use wood. I want to design the thing in CAD, load the file in the printer, and walk away. THAT is "worthwhile" to me.

Just say for the hell of it, OK?

Tom


----------



## RonC (Jul 18, 2020)

For a data point I built Warre hives a while back. Interior dimensions of the boxes were 11-13/16" length and width by 7-3/8" deep. I discovered over time that movable frames are very nice so I designed frames to fit in these boxes...9 to a box. Last Fall I had three queens that I put in three boxes and shook a few bees into each box mainly to hang onto the queens until I knew I didn't need them. Then I decided to over winter them and see what I could get away with. I had one box draw out 5 frames, another drew out 4 frames and one drew out 3 frames. I filled the unused space in each box with 2" EPS and wrapped more insulation on the outside. They also sat buried in a snow drift most of the Winter. It appears the 5 frames and the 4 frames survived our Minnesota Winter. I would conclude your little hive would work just fine. When the bees run out of room they will swarm. If you are looking for increase that is a perfectly acceptable way to do it. Personally, I would inspect the hive every weekend and make splits when queen cells appear and also keep a few swarm traps around.

I also have a 3D printer and I have printed out Warre Frame feeders along the lines of Kirk Webster's frame feeders where he uses them to split a box and both sides can feed from the same feeder without having the bees mix. I've had a bugger of a time making feeders out of hardboard and wood and getting something that would hold water. The printed feeders look like they will work well. I've also taken Lee Bussy's mating nuc frames and designed a 1" foam box around them. Printing the mating nuc frames gives me something that takes up less space than what I can make out of wood. 14 frames to a plate takes 23 hours and 30 minutes to print. I get up in the morning, empty the printer and start a new batch. It is an effortless way to make frames while I am at work. A 3D printer is a wonderful tool. It has a place in making bee equipment but I would never dream of printing out a hive "just because" . I can knock out 24 mating nucs in a weekend out of EPS and a tablesaw. I spend 30 minutes over the next week printing the frames to fill the nucs. My guess is one would be hard pressed to make just five nucs a week with a 3D printer.


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

You are correct about the printing time. I just completed the first box and it was 34.5 hours. It came out great, very strong.

However, the issue I am going to have to deal with is one I was afraid of from the beginning... warping at the corners. All 3d printer people know about this problem with prints sometimes lifting a bit from the bed during the print because the plastic shrinks as it cools. This box did that as it printed. There are various ways to deal with the issue and those will be looked at. 

The aggravating problem is that almost ALL printer beds are unevenly heated. Looked at with a IR thermometer the unevenness is obvious and it is especially so out near the edges of the print plate where these large boxes are positioned.

This is, after all, a hobby in itself and it keeps me out of the dance halls at night. Well, my wife does that anyway, but you know what I mean. 

Tom


----------



## RonC (Jul 18, 2020)

Yes I ran into that on my Warre Feeder. I finally drew it up as flat panels that I glued together. I print in ABS and Acetone is an excellent solvent and actually welds the panels together. I explain my methods if you dig through that link.


----------



## ken.netikut (Nov 27, 2021)

T_om said:


> I am curious as to the smallest "practical" permanent hive size.
> 
> I have seen lots of data on "Queen Nucs" and other small specialized hives. But that's not what I am after. I also saw the "Eco Bee Box" and it appears to have little real support around here.
> 
> ...


Look into box hives as in Japan. Be aware of local restrictions\ guidelines requiring movable frames.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ken.netikut said:


> Look into box hives as in Japan. Be aware of local restrictions\ guidelines requiring movable frames.


Different bees! Apis Ceranae ; Apples and oranges


----------



## mill-j (10 mo ago)

T_om said:


> My hives have 3d printed parts already. "Guardian" small hive beetle entry blockers are ten bucks apiece, for a few grams of PLASTIC... so I 3d printed my own for about 39 cents each.


 Do you have these on Thingiverse? I've been tinkering with designing some but no sense reinventing the wheel unless there's money involved in acquiring the STL's 


I use 3D parts in my hives such as feeder rings, swarm trap entrances, spacers, etc. But I scrounge for lumber and I've also got a small sawmill that provides me with nice lumber to where plastic would be much more expensive both time wise and money wise.

I would however highly recommend trying a 0.8mm nozzle. I finally put one in temporarily after several yearsof using only a 0.4mm. Turns out it's still in there and prints are not only much faster, they are much stronger. Two shell, 20% infill and watch that spool whirrrrrr


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

mill-j said:


> Do you have these on Thingiverse? I've been tinkering with designing some but no sense reinventing the wheel unless there's money involved in acquiring the STL's


Not on Thingiverse, but on Cults

However, I am asking the outrageous sum of $4.99 for all the files including the rotating disk version that has the beetle excluder, vent and queen excluder all on one disk. But I prefer the individual covers and they are there too of course.

I know you could add another 5 bucks to what I am asking and get a small cup of coffee at TwinkieBucks coffee shop but these took some time to develop into something that actually works and aren't a PITA to use..

Here ya go if interested: Bee Hive Entrance Disks and Small Hive Beetle Excluders

Tom


----------



## mill-j (10 mo ago)

T_om said:


> Not on Thingiverse, but on Cults
> 
> However, I am asking the outrageous sum of $4.99 for all the files including the rotating disk version that has the beetle excluder, vent and queen excluder all on one disk. But I prefer the individual covers and they are there too of course.
> 
> I know you could add another 5 bucks to what I am asking and get a small cup of coffee at TwinkieBucks coffee shop but these took some time to develop into something that actually works and aren't a PITA to use..


Ironically, I'm guessing the Guardian folks could relate 


T_om said:


> My hives have 3d printed parts already. "Guardian" small hive beetle entry blockers are ten bucks apiece, for a few grams of PLASTIC... so I 3d printed my own for about 39 cents each. They are installed on both my Lang and top bar hive (see photos).


Joking aside. How well do these actually work? 100% or "Hmm I think there's less beetles...but I'm not sure"? I checked thingiverse and there's several neat designs there as well. What I want to design is one that not only keeps them out. It kills them as well with maybe tanglefoot or oil and is serviceable without opening the hive. Time to fire up FreeCAD


----------



## T_om (May 17, 2021)

mill-j said:


> Ironically, I'm guessing the Guardian folks could relate


PLEASE NOTE. The ones I linked to are my own designs, NOT a Guardian copy. Guardian copy .stl files are available on the internet. But I wanted my own adaptable to any hive, not just Langstroths. Mine are the product of much experimentation and research by others way more educated on the habits of SHB's although the Guardian excluder and my own work on the same principals.



> Joking aside. How well do these actually work? 100% or "Hmm I think there's less beetles...but I'm not sure"? I checked thingiverse and there's several neat designs there as well. What I want to design is one that not only keeps them out. It kills them as well with maybe tanglefoot or oil and is serviceable without opening the hive. Time to fire up FreeCAD


I have never heard Guardian, or anyone else for that matter, claim a 100% exclusion rate.

My version is based on the research by many scientists into the morphology of the SHB and its inability to either hover or to navigate sharp, hard, 90° corners. Their normal MO is to land on the hive surface and just walk in. 

My version, and the Guardian version, makes this "walking in" part hard... but probably not impossible. My version leaves plenty of room for guard bees and others to chase off the beetles and since mine extends away from the hive body (unlike the Guardian), they actually fall to the ground, which I have actually seen. Florida is terrible for SHB's by the way so anything I can do to help, I'll do.

Tom


----------



## mill-j (10 mo ago)

T_om said:


> PLEASE NOTE. The ones I linked to are my own designs, NOT a Guardian copy. Guardian copy .stl files are available on the internet. But I wanted my own adaptable to any hive, not just Langstroths. Mine are the product of much experimentation and research by others way more educated on the habits of SHB's although the Guardian excluder and my own work on the same principals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough, beetles are pretty bad here too. I've been thinking about designing an enclosed testing system that you could put beetles into and see how many get through to the comb on the other side. By watching how they navigate you could then just redesign and change inserts until you got one that was impassable to a beetle. Not like it would be hard to catch some beetles for testing...


----------

