# Two queen hive



## maverick (Oct 5, 2005)

hi everyone:
I was wondering if anyone heard of two queen hives. I know I was surprised to hear of such an arrangement.
I'm hoping if anyone has tried it or have any info on how this thing works would share that info with us.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here are some previous discussions and other links on this site: http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000474.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000360.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000434.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000307.html 
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001367.html
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003152#000001
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003275#000007
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003238#000003
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002635#000001
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002539#000002
http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/abj1968.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/abj1968b.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/beekpUSA64.htm http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000158.html http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/breeding5.htm


----------



## maverick (Oct 5, 2005)

thanks Michael for those links. you know what I'm going to be reading for the next few hours/ days


----------



## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

Do you mean the artificial two queen hives, which are essentially vertical hives with two broodnests separated by excluders, or the natural multiqueen hives, where mother and daughter or sister queens tolerate one another within a single broodnest?


----------



## maverick (Oct 5, 2005)

hi robert:
I meant the vertical hive with two queens and broods nests, separated by excludes.
I'm still wondering if an excluder screen is also placed at entrance to prevent one of the queens from leaving?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've done a few two queen hives. I wouldn't do them vertically, they are too much work. Too much lifting and too much disurbance of the bees to get to the queens to do anything. When I HAVE done them vertically I didn't put an excluder in "includer" position. For one thing, if the queen can't get out, neither can the drones. And there's no reason to make the bees work so hard. If you have seperate boxes for the queens then both will need an exit for the drones.

IMO it's a fun experiment to do once. But it's too much work to be practical on any scale. You can run two one queen hives more simply and get the same amount of honey as one two queen hive.


----------



## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

I've had 2 queen hives happen by accident, when the brood nest is full, I like to raise the sealed brood abouve the excluder, and replace with empty frames, however a queen must have developed, from uncapped eggs, and mated through the top opening of the hive and viola - 2 queen hive.


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

I will have to take exception to Michael Bushes comment that two one queen hives will produce the same honey as a two queen hive. Not true. at least in part A hive of 60,000 bees will pruduce four times the honey of a hive that has 30,000 bees.
Before I began migrating to Florida with several hundred colonies I managed 125-150 hives for 20 years. About 2/3 of these colonies were double queened for at least 4 weeks. The method I used pratically eliminated swarming and I averaged DOUBLE the honey crop as my neighboring beekeepers. Swarming averaged 1-2%. Here is how. First consider fruit trees usuallly bloom April 12 and locust the first week of May with poplar about May 10. 
The last week of March you work every colony dividing it into two parts. It is easier if you insert queen excluder between hive bodies and you wont have to search for old queen in hives with brood in two hive bodies. Place 4-5 frames young brood/eggs in bottom hive body with old queen on bottom board. Place 3-5 frames brood in top hive body OVER a double screen with a top entrance with new queen, DONT REMOVE CORK IN CANDY END. Try to equalize all colonies (in bad years use 3 frames brood, in good years use 5. If a colony is short of bees/brood you can get from a strong colony that has extra. 
Just try to equalize where all colonies are approximately the same strength. Go back in 5 days and check for queen cells in top box. If there are none remove cork, If they are some, remove them and remove cork. This step will increase acceptance to 90%( a little extra work but worth it with queens at $12-15.) If bottom or top gets stronger due to drifting you can reverse them putting old queen on top and new on bottom but make sure to mark where new queen is. The last week of April of first week of May depending on flow/strength of bees you either do the following. The following should be done about 1 week or less prior to flow.

1. If hive is very strong (both boxes full of bees. /brood ie 16 frames or more), you can remove old queen and put in nuc box with 1-3 frames of brood and hold to replace bad queen later or start new colony or sell.
2. If colony is not full of brood and bees, find old queen and kill her and unite colony. No newspaper needed. 

At same time add at least two perferrably 3 supers. All colonies are about same strength, with new queens and supers swarming is minimal. I have had bees fill a DEEP in 5 days. Almost all colonies will make same amount of honey...you dont have one making 4 supers while others make 1. I averaged more than double other beekeepers. One year the president of our local assoc wanted me to help pull off his poplar honey from 40 colonies and he would help me pull the honey from mine on poplar. Some of his made 4 supers some 1 some swarmed with none. I AVERAGED 4 supers only a 1/2 mile from his bees. My worst one made 3 and best one 5. From then on he use the above system...loved it! Rick


----------



## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

suttonbeeman
Well have to agree with you on the production of 2 queen hives.The norm in one new Zealand operation with only one possible floral source year after year and surrounded by sea is 4 -6 metric tons per 100 hives.Single hand sized excluder with two seperate entrances to single brood boxes,new queen on the bottom only.Over winter as two queen.The method of increase is unique making 3 new 2 queen production units from 2x2 queen hives.See example in photo below,this is a trial sister queen hive and we would normally run 4 of these to a pallet.There ia a way of getting the honey off without a crane.Sorry about the other photos in this album.

http://tinyurl.com/cxhqu

[ December 03, 2005, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Bob Russell ]


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

We've run 2 queen hives for years. There is and excellant instructional on this in the Hive and the Honey bee. Powers did a study that showed they out produce standard hives by a mimimum of 40 percent and as much as double. We've found timing and methodology is critical. This should be done when the weather is consistenly warm and 1st. thing in the morning to allow the hive to organize and settle by dark. make sure your hives are absolutely level due to the end heights and weight and have firm bases. Hives must have a strong population. We are basically making a split at dandelion bloom. Locate the queen and set her aside. We take 3 frames of capped brood and 1 with some open brood to hold nurse bee interest.(we need lots of bees hatchin in the 1st. week to give this population) Make sure you either have plenty of honey in the "split" brood frames or give them a frame, it is extremely important as they will not have a field force of any size for several days. They are placed in a hive body with drawn comb and we shake a large portion of the bees into the new split (most of them will return to the lower so don't worry about shorting them). The queen is relocated in the orginal hive body and left on the orginal stand. We then add 4 honey supers, preferably with 1 of darker combs directly over the orginal hive (the lower field bees will occupy this and leave some space for the new queen to be accepted in the top). On top of the 4 supers we add a 2 queen board which is basically a bottom board without the bottom support rails with a small section of queen excluder secure stapled to a square cutout in the center of the queen board. This must lay flat on the honey supers below and allow and entrance for the top "split". Place your split on top of the queen board and reduce the entrance. Place a new caged queen in the upper split. Do not facilitate release by poking a whole in the candy as you want the "split" to have time to adjust to the queen. Even better plan to do a hand release after you know the queen is accepted. Once the queen is installed for release or is accepted and released do not disturb the hive for 7 days. There is a high tendency to ball the queen do to phermones coming in from the lower hive. Once you know the queen is accepted and laying let the "split" in this format for a full brood cycle (21 days). After the 21 days has passed recombine the split using the newpaper method and be sure to add another (5th) honey super. Often the 2 queens will continue to lay for a week or 2 because the bees have been intermingling. The queens will eventually work out their differences. For the next 21 days you will have between 2000 to 3000 bees hatching out a day. It is sight to see because they just explode. We've found the hive will peak at about 5 weeks which should coincide with your target honey flow. Plan to have 7 or eight 3/4's for each hive and a step ladder at harvest time as the hives will be well over 6 feet. Our best year, 1996, we averaged 240 lbs of honey on 40 hives. Plan to leave more winter stores as you will have larger clusters to winter. It is more labor intensive as others have stated, hefting 40 lb honey supers off 6'-7'stacks is no picnic but it is a great production increase for operations running 50 or less hives. I would start small and do 4 or 5 the 1st. season and go from there. Have fun!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I averaged DOUBLE the honey crop as my neighboring beekeepers. 

Precisely my point. For three or four times the work.

>We've found timing and methodology is critical. 

Absolutely. Timing is everything. Bad timing on when you make it a two queen hive can actually peak the brood rearing during the flow and peak the population AFTER the flow and actually cut your honey crop in half instead of doubling it.

If I wanted to maximize a honey crop with no concern for how much work (other than compared to other labor intensive methods for a maximin crop) I think I'd do this:

Put two hives right against each other side by side in the early spring. Maybe even put them in five frame boxes if there's only ten or fifteen frames of bees. We'll number boxes from bottom to top, 1,2,3,4. Sort all the frames and put the honey on the bottom (1) where you don't have to move it so much, the queen in the next box (2) with a little open brood and some empty drawn comb, the rest of the open brood in the next box (3) and the capped brood in the top box (4). If you only have two boxes worth of bees then you may have to just put the capped in the top and the open brood and empty comb underneath with the queen and do this every ten days. If you have three boxes of bees,then rotate the boxes up, while leaving the queen in box 2. That way the empty comb that the brood emerged from moves from 4 to 2. The open brood and eggs the queen just layed moves from 2 to 3. The capped brood moves from 3 to 4. If you do this once a week, that's one brood cycle and the brood is nicely graded into empty comb, open brood and capped brood. Now, about two weeks before the flow, you pull all the open brood and empty comb and honey(which is nicely sorted for you already in boxes 1,3 and 4 just at time to rotate again), off of both hives and one of the queens for a split to another location 10 yards or more away. Consolidate all the capped brood at the old location in one hive with lots of empty supers. You now have, for the flow, the consolidated field force from two hives, plus all the emerging brood that will have nothing to do except forage. I call this a DOUBLE cut down split/combine. I bet you'll get even more than a two queen hive makes. But who wants to work this hard?

The other variation is to do this on a three box long hive with a brood nest at each end and a vertical queen excluder to keep the queens at each end. Stack up all the boxes you need for the brood on the ends and the supers in the middle. Roate the boxes, as per above on both ends. (remember the honey is on the bottom so it doesn't have to rotate) Again, just before the flow (May 30th here) pull out the open brood, the empty cells and the honey and one queen and make a cut down split off of the two queen hive.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

An even simpler method is practiced by Paul Brown in North Carolina. Paul concentrates on setting swarm traps in prime areas. As he catches swarms he newspapers them into existing hives. he had a hive which produced 480 lbs (confirmed by the state bee inspector. Paul has a an excellant video out on his method although I can't remember the name.


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Michael
It is very little more work than a regular hive as you need to either split it to prevent swarming or at lwast check brood pattern/ disease stores ect about the same time you would be making a two queen hive. You get lots more honey, less equipment and I gurantee you I made more per hour of work that way! In 1982 I averaged over 300# colony. Wish I lived close to you, would love to run about 24 colonies in a yard...you do 12 and I do 12 DQ colonies, track time spent and I'll bet I'll produce more honey per hour of work!! Would be fun anyway...try it as see what happens! Rick


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

No, you do 12 DQ and I'll do 24 regular hives.









I've done them. I'm not saying they aren't interesting and they will, if the timing is right, make an awsome crop, but in a good year I've gotten 200# of honey from each one queen colony. Of course in a bad year I've gotten none.









Also, I have my own preference for running a two queen hive that is much easier than one vertical stack. The long hive with a brood chamber on each end and the supers in the middle is much easier and actually not that much work.


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Wished we lived close togather...would be fun to try..maybe have a friendly wager!! Bet I could get a free cup of coffee!! Ha Ha. I liked the system I used because it nearly eliminated swarming, bush honeysuckle blooms a week before black locust and a week after fruit is over. This nectar source is almost always dependable and blooms dont vary as much! So I timed bees for it. the colony wasnt a DQ but for about 4-6 weeks depending on season. Probably the biggest advantage was the equalizing of colonies. Equalizing colonies has great advantages! I did it all at once. By the way you got more investment...extra bottom board, top, innercover and TWO colonies to get thru winter!(grin!) Rick


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>TWO colonies to get thru winter!

And twice as many queens in the spring.


----------



## drone1952 (Dec 4, 2005)

Hi Friends
Im going to tell you the 2 queens system I use for many years. Its not my invention. The author of this system is the Romanian beekeeper Adrian Huica. He patented this system in Romania few years ago.
The system. The materials you need 2,3 or more clipped queens, their hives and newspapers. No queen excluders no other material.
The queens must be clipped. Here in Romania we dont use to clip our queens. For some years I started to clip my queens bur never in her first year.
The method: if you want to have a hive with 2 queens all you have to do is to unite 2 queenright colonies using newspaper method. The set up description: bottom, hivebody with brood and clipped queen, newspaper over the hivebody, next hivebody containing brood and the second clipped queen, innercover and cover.
Now the set up is ready. All you have to do now is to let the unit undisturbed for one week or until your next visit.
Well, for me and for other beekeeper friends this system works. I have 3 failures out of 17 attempts in last 7 years. In all this years I realize that some times you fail when you try to unite the queens in their first year of live.
The next trip to your beeyard youll take the newspaper off (or remaining of it) and take a look to see what happened. For sure youll find out 2 queens laying and the bees doing their job.
An interesting thing for sure youll see: after 2-3 weeks youll find up to 6 nice queen cells. If you want you can use them they are very good queen cells and youll get nice queens. After 3-4 weeks youll see another bunch of queen cells. Its up to you to use them or destroy them.
Using this method you can have in your hive 2,3,4 queens. All its up to you but you end up with a very strong colony able to gather a lot of honey.
You can winter the hive with 2 or 3 queens. Youll observe a big cluster bigger than usual (when you use one queen). Last winter I wintered only one hive with 2 queens because 2 years ago somebody stole 19 of my 27 hives. The colony is well and I made a nuc with the queen cell from this 2 queen colony.
Well, perhaps youll think that its impossible and Im writing a lot of nonsense but I want to ask you to try it you youll see that this work. Last month a beekeeper friend from Denmark Jorn Johanssen (the author of beekeeping program Apimo) visits me and he has seen this system.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{Probably the biggest advantage was the equalizing of colonies. Equalizing colonies has great advantages!}

Probably one of the best management tools for any beekeeper 1 or 2 queen!

Suttonbee, you and I agree on every aspect, well worth the efforts for all those reasons.

ARad- What keeps the 2 queens from coming together and killing each other? What causes them to draw out new queen cells?


----------



## drone1952 (Dec 4, 2005)

Hi Joel,
Just call me George.
Im sure that all of you saw 2 queens(mother and doughter)laying side by side for some time.The bees dont let them fight. The reason why the bees dont let them fight is unknown. Some master beekeepers said that the bees want to make sure that the new queen is ok. The same thing happen in the 2 queens system.The bees understand that the queens are not OK and they decide to replace them, so new queen cells.Its only an opinion


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have found two queen hives from supercedures or from simply adding a queen cell that's about to emerge or smoking heavily and adding a virgin.  All of these sometimes work. But all of them sometimes end up with one new queen instead.

I guess I haven't done it with the intent of ending up with a two queen hive.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The guy I know who does two queen for a living has an easyloader boom that aids him in his work. Without it I cant see how two queen hives can practially be worked.
He has at least one more brood chamber, and stacks 8 supers, where I stack 3-4. How can you possibley get those supers off the hive without some mechanical aid. A step ladder doesnt help.

He claims double the crop plus. And his honey yeilds usually refect over twice mine. But one beg draw back is he claims two queen hives are more agressive. Probably true, due the huge # of bee/hive.

Pritty much double the equipment, double the queens needed, more phisical work(that is without a boom loader) and 1/2 the hives at the end of it. Does just a bit over double the honey for one compared to two make this really worth the effort>?


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Guys up here make up four frame increase nucs, slap them together, put an excluder over them both to prvent queen merging and super as per usual. 

They get two good stronge nucs at the end to winter, and some honey to boot.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{A step ladder doesnt help.}

If you've seen Paul Brown in the Dadant ads that's exactly what's used.  Tough business though if the ground is soft and your alone!

Ian, are you guys wintering nucs successfully? If so could you expand on the set up.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>But one beg draw back is he claims two queen hives are more agressive. Probably true, due the huge # of bee/hive.

In my experience, I would say they aren't necessarily more aggressive per se. But if they get moblilized they are very intimidating and if they get hot tempered, they are terrifying. It is frightening to work a hive that size because there are SO many bees buzzing around you by the time you get down to the brood chamber and IF they get mad, there is no easy way to put it all back together easily.

Yes, you need a stepladder to work them and if the wind really blows or the hive starts to lean...


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I cant imagine trying to lift 80lbs boxes 10 feet off the ground.

This last season, we had a real heavey first flow. I got behind by a week due to the shear amount of honey comming in, and the boxes come off heavey. Some were 80lbs easy. I needed my brother to help lift them off, six supers high on a step ladder. Now if there were ten of them on those hives, It would be a real challenge not to damage yourself. 
But by would it be fun to take that much honey off a hive!!


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Ian,
Wish I had had that problem!! Most disappointing year I ever had. Bees and honey crop were a disaster in Fl due to hurricanes. Crop was 50% at best, and late which made me late making splits and getting back home. THen hot weather here sped up bloom=locust starting to bloom when I was unloading semi...work day and night to get bees set and supered. Best white dutch clover bloom I had seen since 1982 when I averaged 300+ lbs. Just when it started old man weather decided to make us a desert making another 50% honey crop! Heres hoping we all get Ians crop next year....good problem to have or at least better than mine! Rick


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Well, I told a half truth. The first of three pulls was the heaviest I have ever seen. And like your area, the weather stripped the last two pulls completely as a write off. Thanks to my fist heavey pull, I averaged 150lbs/hive. Disapointing, becasuse even if the next two pulls were below average, I would of been selling over 200lbs/hive.

Next years potential,...


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Next year, that'll surely be the banner year! Right?

Ian the 1st. year we ran 2 queens they were on cinderblocks. We had some pretty rough harvest days trying to keep hives from tipping once we jared them and getting the supers off. Frankly pallets aren't much better.

We too had a huge spring flow we took off the end of June (a month earlier than normal) 6 weeks of drought and a medium fall flow. We had a monster flow in SC this year,the 1st. year we didn't super due to years of poor flows from the extended drought. Our nucs were absolutely honey bound. We also had some of those 5 gallon swarms you just wave at and cry the beginning of April, compliments of the crowded brood nests in the parent hives before splits.

[ December 06, 2005, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Joel,

Do you ever get any good tulip poplar honey? I use to get 100# crop 8 out of 10 yrs but it doesnt seen to yield here lately(last 10 yrs. This year it was about 75% locust and 25% poplar making a ligth mild really good honey with a hint of poplar taste. I have some customers who request it. Would be interested purchasing a couple barrels or more if I dont get any! Rick


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I'm ashamed to say I don't know for sure, mySC time is usually for a week or so and I'm running against the clock the whole time. With the drought the last several years (except this one) we have not had any great spring crops (excpet this year). We are on the edge of a huge swamp. I see a ton of yellow jasmine, loads of wisteria and some tuplip popular. Lots of rasberry blossom too. The honey we get is very light amber, on the border of white. It has a slightly tinny aftertaste but very sweet going in. I'm pretty sure we had a good jasmine crop this year as you could smell it and it was very heady. Great honey. I've been in the swamp looking a couple of times but man the snakes are big in the south! I know every flow and honey in upstate NY., Need to take a season and see what they're working in SC.


----------



## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

Good topic! 

I tried to get some comments on that from the BEE-L people few weeks ago, but had no success. My doubt is about swarming in DQ hives. I've read recently in Free's "Pheromones of Social Bees" that DQ colonies are less likely to swarm according to some, probably because of the better distribution of queen substance among the bees. That caught my attention, because swarmings are of major concern to those of us who keep AHBs.

So Suttonbeeman, have you realy noticed less swarmings in your DQs? What do you credit that to? Do you use some additional swarming preventing technique? If you (and others) could elaborate this a bit more, I'd be grateful.

Thanks,

João


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

My experaince and reading says it won't be an effective method of Swarm Contro for AHB do their swarm threshold.

Our operation has demonstrated that if you make the splits at the appropriate time, before swarming starts or at least before swarm cells are capped, you interept that early process and the bees have a sense of swarming due to the loss of a large population of bees. Due to the loss of sealed brood the bees also sense a "depopulation" for a short period. Add to that the large space allowed by 4 or 5 supers and you've removed the incentive.

I would be interested to hear about your attempts with AHB as well as your AHB experiances since we are in the early stages of the issue in much of the country now.


----------



## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

Hi Joel,

I've already written a little about AHBs in this forum: 
<http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003593;p=2#000043>

Swarming control in AHBs is not an easy matter. New queens and lots of free space are our best tools, IMO, but some swarmings still happen. More aggressive controls are very disturbing to AHBs, so we avoid them as much as possible.
Swarms may occur in the beginning/middle of the nectar flow, and splits aren't always a solution.

Two queen AHB colonies can probably become *very* aggressive, but it was already done a lot in South Africa some decades ago and almost everybody survived, as far as I know...









João


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Joao,
Our colonies were dq for about 6 weeks and at begining of honey flow the old queen was killed or pulled with some brood to start a nuc. The determining factor was colony strength. If we thought they were a little too strong and might swarm the queen with 1-2 frames brood was removed. If they were not crowded we removed queen and killed her.


----------



## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Reading all of this is interesting for us new beekeepers, I wonder if any of you ever just bought packages and introduced them to a existing hive (with the newpaper method) by just putting the package bee's in a few super's on the existing hive and a feeder can over the intercover hole. sounds good for these reasons, you will have a new young queen plus 2-3 pounds of bee's extra per hive, automatic early spring build up and you would still have the same number of hives without taking a hive and installing it with another hive for 2 queen hive. just some thought, like to hear what you all think.

[ December 08, 2005, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: TwT ]


----------



## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

Suttonbeeman,

If I understood correctly, you don't enter the main flow with two queens, and use them only to build up a very large colony. 

Is that because your main nectar flow is short and you don't want useless brood demanding the bees' labor?

If the nectar flow were longer, would you keep the two queens until, say, a month before its end?

João


----------



## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

I would think you would want your hive the strongest at the start of the flow, if Im wrong please explain.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

You want your population to peak with the honey flow. You do not want 2 queens laying at that time for a couple of reasons. First you don't want a peak population after the flow is over (to have to feed all winter) so you have a 6-8 week population peak that you want to baseline after the flow. Keep in mind your hive will peak about 43 days after your 2nd queen starts to lay. (21 days to lay, 21 days until peak brood is hatching) Secondly, you don't want a ton bees taking care of open brood during the honey flow or using that incoming nectar to free that brood. You want the maximum force in the field. Bees live 3 to 6 weeks during the summer. I have found they live longer in 2 queen units. Your goal therefore is to have a minimum of open brood to feed and care for and a maximum population of bees during the main flow that will dwindle before wintering to avoid have to feed a huge cluster. Keep in mind 2 queen units may have 60,000+ bees at peak as opposed to 25,000-30,000 in singles.

[ December 08, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would think you would want your hive the strongest at the start of the flow, if Im wrong please explain.

As Joel said. It's all in the timing. You want the field population to peak at the flow, not the open brood to peak at the flow. As he said, that's a difference of approximately 43 days in theory. In reality, if there is no brood to care for going into the flow (either from a confined queen, no queen or stealing the open brood out of the hive for a split) those nurse bees will be recruited for foraging so you can cut 21 days off that 43 days.

You can't just setup a two queen hive any old time and therefore expect more honey.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{You can't just setup a two queen hive any old time and therefore expect more honey.}

And poor timing can lead to a hive you end up with no surplus you'll end of feeding due to missing the target or due to dearth from drought or rain. Always do 1 or 2 the first 1 or 2 years, many problems to learn to navigate consistently.


----------



## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

I understand the (reasonable) point on avoiding too much laying in the last few weeks of the flow. It's also well known that larger colonies make more honey, because they can either allocate and reallocate task forces more quickly and efficiently, or free more bees to deal with gathering/storing nectar (because some labor costs are fixed and require about the same number of bees, no matter how large is the colony).

But I must have missed something, because I just can't see why timing would be more important for double queen colonies than for single queen colonies. Clearly, if you start stimulating SQCs too late, you'll get less honey than you could otherwise. If you start too early, you'll have to feed them more. Surely no doubts about that.

Is that any different in DQCs? If you had a colony with a single SUPERqueen, capable of laying twice as many eggs a day as the average queens, would the timing be more critical for that colony? If so, I think every colony would have a different timing, because each queen is usually different from the others, in a greater or lesser extent. 

In fact, it seems to me, at first sight, that late stimulation should be *less* problematic for DQCs than for SQCs. Because if you agree that, say, 45,000 bees can be a good producing colony, a DQC would probably achieve this number several days earlier. It would not be the peak number for a DQC, but, in this case of a too late stimulation start, the honey loss would be less important.

What do you say?

João


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

A couple of points to consider Jaos. 1st. reread my previous post and think about the dynamics we are speaking of. Now consider one super queen (which does not exist) will have twice the nurse bees tied up taking care of double the brood through the honey flow. In addition to the honey those nurse bees burn taking care of brood and not making honey, the extra brood is chomping down more honey and pollen. Due to the increase in hive temps with extra bees more bees will be dedicated to bring in water and cool the hives. More bees are also tied up as house bees cleaning cells and gathering pollen for the double brood. Cut you maxed crop by 50% conservatively. Now you get through the flow and you have twice the bees to winter, subtract another 25%-30% for extra winter stores. Ever notice how bees know when to the flow is coming. The orginal hive has gone through the early season and whatever instinctive weather patterns drive them to populate (just like swarming, starts well before we see any signs) and consider that you now have 2 queens sharing the thousands bees. Certainly there are adjustments that have to made with 2 queens sending different messages, subtract say another 5 or 10%. Now you cut that double increase by 70,80% or more. The labor that is involved is not worth the 30% increase in production. Take the time to either read the Power study or the information in the Hive and the honey bee. It is a well established fact int theroy, studies and practice that timeing and limited 2 queen occupation of the hive is critical to success.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I understand the (reasonable) point on avoiding too much laying in the last few weeks of the flow.

No. Not the last few weeks of the flow. The last few weeks BEFORE the flow. Those bees reared DURING the flow are just dependants using up resources (honey and pollen), gathering no honey and tying up bees that could be foraging taking care of them.

>It's also well known that larger colonies make more honey, because they can either allocate and reallocate task forces more quickly and efficiently, or free more bees to deal with gathering/storing nectar (because some labor costs are fixed and require about the same number of bees, no matter how large is the colony).

A large colony makes more honey. A large colony with no brood to care for will make twice that.

>But I must have missed something, because I just can't see why timing would be more important for double queen colonies than for single queen colonies.

Only because the two queens exagerate the same principles. You can do a cutdown split on a one queen colony and double the honey production if you time it correctly. You can do the same with a two queen colony except that you started with even more bees.

You can stimulate a one queen colony to rear more brood earlier by feeding pollen and syrup earlier and you will get more bees that will collect honey. You can simtulate a two queen colonly to rear more brood earlier by feeding pollen and syrup earlier and get even MORE bees that will collect honey. But in both cases you can end up with a lot bees after the flow that were raised DURING the flow that collected NO honey, tied up a lot of nurse bees that could have been foraging and burned up a frame of honey and a frame of pollen to make every frame of brood that was raised and are NOW eating up honey to stay alive when the flow is over. There are just twice as many of them in the two queen hive.

>Is that any different in DQCs?

Other than multiplying the advantages AND disadvantages by two, no. The timing is the same.


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Joel told it like it is and I also agree with Mr Bush. You want the bees to peak at the begining of the flow! My flow here starts with Bush honeysuckle a week or two after fruit bloom and a week before black locust. (usually the last week of April/first week of May). Flow is usually over first week or two of July. Sometimes we get a good enough fall flow to make a little surplus in late Sept/early Oct. 

Rick


----------



## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

Dear friends:

It seems to me that we are discussing only two points here, besides the usefulness of double queen colonies: 

1) Is timing different in DQCs and in SQCs?

2) How long before the end of the flow should the laying be halted, so the presence of brood/young bees won't lessen honey producing?

About the point (1) Michael agreed with me by saying

> Other than multiplying the advantages AND 
> disadvantages by two, no. The timing is the same.

I do believe that, although I'd replace the "multiplying by two" for a more cautious "increasing".

But the point (2) still seems disputable. First, I have to swear to you that I'm already pretty convinced that this procedure can be useful, at least for european bees (AHBs are much more rigorous about their queen, and I'm not sure that caging the queen for a long time will keep the bees working calmly). So, please, no needs to keep explaining me the benefits of this method









Michael said:

> No. Not the last few weeks of the flow. 
> The last few weeks BEFORE the flow. 
> Those bees reared DURING the flow are just 
> dependants using up resources (honey and
> pollen), gathering no honey and tying up 
> bees that could be foraging taking care 
> of them.


If you are talking about few (two) weeks before the (very short/two-week) flow, I can agree, but, in this case, you are saying exactly the same as I did.

But if you refer to a longer flow, let's say 8 weeks like the Rick's, so I'm tempted to disagree. First, I think there's a little conceptual flaw in this reasoning (or I didn't get it correctly). Honey production doesn't depend on field bees only. Younger hive bees, the nectar processors (receivers and ripeners) are an equally important task force. Seeley (Wisdom of the Hive) found that as many as half of the bees in a normal colony (with a laying queen) can be involved in this task when the flow is heavy. That's in agreement with the considerations of Crane (Bees and Beekeeping) and Sammataro and Avitabile (Beekeeper's Handbook) for whom, in a large colony, about only half of the bees are foragers.

Nectar processors usually start their tasks by 10-11 days after the emergence, but, if there's no brood to tend, and there's a heavy flow to gather, wouldn't they start earlier? I think so, and I'm pretty sure that the studies of Lindauer and Seeley (among others) on labor allocating strongly support this view. If it's true, so the presence of young bees are truly beneficial in a no-brood colony.

Second, bees dye. And they not only dye, but they dye soon in the active season. Jim Fisher said recently that he works with the perspective of a lifespan between 45-60 days, but it sounds a little too optimistic. I checked some books, and found that Winston (Biology of the Honey Bee) talks about 38 days, Crane (Bees...) about 3.5-4 weeks, Caron (Honey Bee Biology and Beekeeping) about 4-5 weeks, and Morse (ABC & XYZ) about 4-6 weeks. 

So, if you consider a developing period of 21 days, a fairly optimistic lifespan of 40 days, and a constant death rate (which is unreal), all the bees disappear in less than 9 weeks. It does not happen so quickly, in fact, because under such conditions not all bees become field bees, and those who keep doing house tasks get a longer lifespan. Anyway, it gives a good figure of how fast the population can decrease in the active season, when the colony is deprived of new eggs.

So, my point is that, for one side, young bees are important to honey production, for another, the colony probably shrinks very quickly when the queen is caged. So you will lose honey if you cage the queen (or remove one queen in a DQH) many weeks before the end of the flow. This idea only opposes the one presented by Michael, but doesn't answer the question I posed in item (2). Now, taking Moeller as another reference, (quoted by Crane in Bees..., and by Ambrose in The Hive and the Honey Bee), I read that he stated that four weeks BEFORE THE END of the flow is the right time to remove one queen in a DQC.

So far, I've presented only rhetoric and vague references, which sometimes are not very convincing (and often not even read), especially when written in a mistakefull English







. But maybe those bravehearts who had guts to read all of this will find it useful to take a look at a spreadsheet (MS Excel) I've just made, with a rough model of the colony development:
Colony model 

There are two sheets, in fact. CDM1 has some periods highlighted with different colors, and commented. In CDM1, I used some parameters you may consider arguable, although I've tried to be realistic. Then I made CDM2, which is an unprotected sheet, where you can set the parameters as you like and get different results from the model. The sheets show the colony development by counting the daily increases in eggs laid, deaths, open brood, capped brood, nurse bees, and other [hive + field] bees. Nurse bees number is calculated according to Lindauer's estimation (quoted by Crane and Winston) of one nurse being capable of feeding 2-3 larvae (I took the average 2.5, so nurses = 40% open brood), but you may change that if you want. The model is very unreal in the start and in the end (colony with no bees), but I hope it gives a fairly good figure of what happens in between. Of course, it's a very simple model, based in averages and constant rates, and it was never intended to mirror the reality.

Well, since I have already written much more than the common sense would recommend, I think I won't do any worse in adding one more point: 

(3) How much more honey can the beekeeper expect by caging the queen before the end of the flow?

I think, from what I've read from your posts and some books, that honey increase is mainly due to (a) extinction of the nurse tasks, freeing bees to participate in nectar gathering/processing, and (b) saving more honey because of no more need to feed the larvae. 

Michael said:

> A large colony makes more honey. 
> A large colony with no brood to 
> care for will make twice that.

Would be "twice" a realistic figure?

Let's take a look at (a). How many bees are in fact freed by the extinction of the nurse job? At first thought, it may appear a lot. But, for a constant laying, the number of brood nurses tends to stabilize as the number of open brood stabilizes too, so nursing becomes a fixed cost for the the hive (and that's one reason why a large colony stores proportionally more honey than a small one). Qualitatively, you may reason that, when you cage the queen, the population is already at its peak, so the brood nurses are at the smallest possible percentage. 

Quantitatively, it's sometimes difficult to visualize what really happens within such a dynamic group. But you can take a look at the model I pointed above. For the Lindauer's estimation, you'll find out that the percentage of bees in charge of brood in the peak of the season is only 5% of the total adults. So, probably no huge honey increases here.

Now, let's look at (b). From Winston (Biology...), we learn that a larva needs about 142 mg of honey and about the same weight of pollen to be reared. Assuming that the cost of gathering pollen is about the same of gathering nectar, I will consider that, roughly, each larva not reared saves about 300 mg of honey. I also assume that this is the total cost, including the pollen eaten by the nurses to produce food secretions, and the additional nectar spent in additional heating/fanning/water collecting due to the presence of the larvae. 

If you take some 30 days as the useful period to produce honey with the queen caged, you'll get about 9 g of honey saved for each viable egg previously laid by the queen in each single day (in average). In other words, 

Honey saved = 0.3 g x 30 days x ADL (average daily laying, in eggs/day)

If you consider ADL as 1,200 eggs, you'll get about 11 kg (24 lb) of honey saved. Or 13.5 kg (30 lb), for ADL = 1,500. Roughly, a shallow super in excess.

My conclusion is that one more supper of honey for each hive is indeed a very good result, although hardly a "double production", unless the flow/weather are very poor, or I'm grossly underestimating some aspect.

Just one more thing: since you don't know me, I'm afraid that this long post may appear to you as an arrogant flooding of data, intended to overwhelm and suffocate the discussion. Nothing is farther from the truth. I always appreciate your alert and critical posture. The long reasoning is only necessary for my own needs, because the topic is about a subject I'm not familiarized with - although general bee biology actually is a matter of interest to me. So, please (and I'm sure I wouldn't need to say this) feel completely free to point out the flaws and omissions in my ideas, references and calculations, so I can see it more clearly.

Best regards.

João


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Nectar processors usually start their tasks by 10-11 days after the emergence, but, if there's no brood to tend, and there's a heavy flow to gather, wouldn't they start earlier?

All the evidence and all of the people doing cut down splits have come to that precise conclusion.

> I think so, and I'm pretty sure that the studies of Lindauer and Seeley (among others) on labor allocating strongly support this view.

Exactly.

>If it's true, so the presence of young bees are truly beneficial in a no-brood colony.

Exactly.

>> A large colony with no brood to care for will make twice that.

>Would be "twice" a realistic figure

In my experience, yes, I think that is a realistic figure. You will free up a lot of bees and a lot of resources. Not only are the nurse bees foraging and bringing in more, but there is no brood consuming it. Also there is no need for pollen which frees up MORE foragers for nectar.

I'm sure this will vary by climate and length of flows. But most places you will get more honey with a cut down two weeks before the main flow. Experiment in your climate and see how it works out in pounds of honey.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Joao, You're way over complicating this simple but challenging manuever. Time your brood so the peak is at the beginning of your largest honey flow. Each queen will lay approximately 5 to 7 frames of brood in the 21 day period. The population of hatched bees will peak for 3-6 weeks about 49 days after setting up the unit giving you a maximum of foragers during any long flow. That will be approximatly 49 days from the start of the flow to put up the 2 queen unit. (21 for brood to lay, 21 for brood from both queens hatching together, 3-7 days for the queen to be released, accepted and start laying. If you have a realatively steady flow like we do in our region you should start your units at the 1st. major pollen source (dandelion here)when the weather is settled.

Never mind caging any queens, you won't have a chance of finding her in a hive with 60,000 bees at the beginning of the flow. 

Beekeeping is about trusting experiance and trying your best to duplicate it, the science is already proven.


----------



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Ah-ha! I get the cutdown split for more honey idea. Why had I missed it last time I read it when doing it to break the brood cycle therby reducing varroa mites? Sounds like a good way to make spring increase. 
One question on that though.
Will the change in population dynamics effect wax production. I have little drawn comb so I wouldn't want to slow down any emerging bees that may be making wax. So to focus my question, what age or type of bees are the wax producers?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Young bees are the wax producers. You can feed empty combs into the split with all the open brood and get more nice combs there. There will also be plenty of house bees in the old hive that will draw wax.


----------



## maverick (Oct 5, 2005)

hello everyone.
I found your answers truly amazing and extremely informative. thank you for your input.
If I understood the setup correctly, we are shooting for four deep supers for brood and queens. bottom two for first queen. an excluder. then two more deep supers for the second queen and an excluder then the honey supers on top. is this correct? 
one more question would be should I have an additional entrance between third and fourth super to expedite movement, or just the main the main entrance is sufficient.

thanks


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If I understood the setup correctly, we are shooting for four deep supers for brood and queens. bottom two for first queen. an excluder. then two more deep supers for the second queen and an excluder then the honey supers on top. is this correct? 

When I've done something similar, I just did one deep for each queen and tried to keep it from getting to congetsted. I put two bound excluders between or an excluder a shallow super and an excluder between, so the queens can't sting each other between the two. Both the top brood nest and the bottom brood nest need some kind of exit for the drones to get out. Either a hole in the box, or a notch in the bound excluder etc. With mediums I could do two mediums for each brood nest.

>one more question would be should I have an additional entrance between third and fourth super to expedite movement, or just the main the main entrance is sufficient.

I like to have one above the excluder for the feild bees whenever there is an excluder and an exit for the drones from the brood nest. Everything else is optional. It will need a lot of room for the traffic. There can be an amazing number of bees in a booming two queen hive.

But I prefer the long hive. I don't have to disturb all of those supers to get to the brood nests. I have a brood nest on each end and a stack of supers in the center. I can keep the brood nests open by pulling out frames of honey and feeding in empty frames and I can leave the supers alone and not disturb them so much.


----------



## Blue.eyed.Wolf (Oct 3, 2005)

Michael, in an earlier post, you shot down the idea of a nuc highrise,( 4 nucs stacked with screen between each), because of the condensation. Have you tried banking nucs in your long hive?
Something like 2 frames w/queen - excluder- single frame - excluder- 2 frames w/queen - excluder-single frame - excluder- 2 frames w/queen....ect. 
I am aiming at banking queens through the winter with out putting them in little boxes. 
The premiss I am going with is that if you can make a 2 queen hive, then 3,4, or 5 should be posable. I was told that keeping them in queen cages all winter stresses them, therefore weakens them. Do you think the clusters would abondon a queen for a prettier smelling one?

I understand that if this did work, the springtime buildup would be explosive.

What happens when you leave a 2 queen hive as a 2 queen hive all winter?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Have you tried banking nucs in your long hive?
Something like 2 frames w/queen - excluder- single frame - excluder- 2 frames w/queen - excluder-single frame - excluder- 2 frames w/queen....ect. 

No but I've made the mistake of leaving an excluder on and the cluster left the queen behind. Im quite certain the bees will all cluster around one of those queens and most of the queens will be left to die.

>I am aiming at banking queens through the winter with out putting them in little boxes. 

I'm banking some this winter in a five frame nuc with a terrarium heater under it and in the middle of my row of nucs with the heater. So far they are doing well, but we'll see what winter brings.

>The premiss I am going with is that if you can make a 2 queen hive, then 3,4, or 5 should be posable.

But I don't see how it would help other than wintering queens, and to do that, my theory was to cram enough bees into the nuc to keep the cluster big enough to cover the queens, feed them so they don't starve, and keep them warm enough that the cluster won't shrink too much and leave them too cold.

>I was told that keeping them in queen cages all winter stresses them, therefore weakens them.

I don't see that it matters. The queen won't lay all winter anyway.

>Do you think the clusters would abondon a queen for a prettier smelling one?

No, but they will abandon her for a warm spot in the main cluster in a heartbeat.

>I understand that if this did work, the springtime buildup would be explosive.

It won't.

>What happens when you leave a 2 queen hive as a 2 queen hive all winter?

The bees all move to cluster in one spot and they may even leave BOTH queens behind. In the winter the bees aren't looking for the queen, they are looking for a warm spot in the cluster and the cluster isn't looking for the queen, the cluster is looking for a warm spot with food.


----------



## Blue.eyed.Wolf (Oct 3, 2005)

thanks , I was just getting back on to see if this had already been discussd in another thread. Sorry to go off thread with that, but in my mind it was all related.


----------



## Joao Campos (Sep 23, 2004)

> When I've done something similar, I just did one deep for each queen and tried to keep it from getting to congetsted


That's what I'thinking to do. Did you find less/equal/more honey near the brood in this configuration than in conventional SQ? And how about the pollen ditribution?



> I put two bound excluders between


That's exatly what I thought to be necessary, but some authors report they use only one excluder. In the other hand, they previously keep the hives piled for a week or more with a double, bee-proof screen. Maybe this helps the queens to get used with the pheromones of each other and decreases the mutual agressive tendency.



> Either a hole in the box, or a notch in the bound excluder etc.


I was thinking of an entrance in the excluders, but I think they'd have to be large enough to support the heavy traffic in the season (would a small landing board help/encourage the bees to use this entrance?). But then maybe the rims would have to be a little higher, for providing a useful entrance, and that could slightly violate the bee space. Anyway, maybe excluders should come normally with a closable entrance, don't you think so? 

João


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Did you find less/equal/more honey near the brood in this configuration than in conventional SQ? And how about the pollen ditribution?

I think it's typical of a regular hive. There is the bee's tendancy to start backfilling the brood nest to prepare to swarm and then you have to open it up. But up until then they will be expanding it. Pollen, of course, is always near the brood. Some colonies will store lots of it and others just some. I never figured out why but it must be just a genetic variation.


>That's exatly what I thought to be necessary, but some authors report they use only one excluder.

Maybe one would work. I never tried it, to be honest, but I think they might fight otherwise.

>In the other hand, they previously keep the hives piled for a week or more with a double, bee-proof screen. Maybe this helps the queens to get used with the pheromones of each other and decreases the mutual agressive tendency.

Maybe.

>I was thinking of an entrance in the excluders, but I think they'd have to be large enough to support the heavy traffic in the season (would a small landing board help/encourage the bees to use this entrance?).

I don't see any difference with landing boards. I think they are to make beekeepers feel better.







I guess my point was that drones can get out. You can have other entrances that are larger.

>But then maybe the rims would have to be a little higher, for providing a useful entrance

1/4" high will do. Anything over 3/8" is just more ventilation and probably won't speed up traffic any.

> and that could slightly violate the bee space. 

Slightly larger than bee space at the entrance is easier to get away with since the bees don't tend to burr up a high traffic area.

>Anyway, maybe excluders should come normally with a closable entrance, don't you think so? 

Seems like a good idea.







I don't really use them so I don't think about it much.


----------



## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

Joao
Take look at this 2 queen board we use in New Zealand commercial hives.If you want a complete breakdown on the simplicity on how these two queen hives are created,ease of making increases, reason for placement of queen excluder section and placement of queens for pheomones just contact me off line if you wish.

http://tinyurl.com/btze5

[ December 16, 2005, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Bob Russell ]


----------



## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Hey Bob, Us lurkers would like the complete breakdown too! Could you please post all that good two queen info to the list?

Thanks, Patrick


----------

