# Destroying the whole hive question



## PFCBeetleBailey (Apr 28, 2011)

I----------
would burn them anyways.
I guess when it comes to the environment, I feel like AFB killing bees has a far worse effect on nature than a little burnt plastic. (Is burnt plastic really that bad any-who???)
Beetle Bailey


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## avalonweddingsbcs (May 2, 2010)

I'D like to know when it became illegal to burn plastic... I dont think it's illegal... not quite user friendly, but not illegal.


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

avalonweddingsbcs said:


> I'D like to know when it became illegal to burn plastic... I dont think it's illegal... not quite user friendly, but not illegal.


 You are not supposed to burn it here in washington county tn. There are a lot of things on the list including PT wood.


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## amethysta (Jul 23, 2011)

It is definitely illegal to burn trash outside in NH. Would people feel different if they found out that VOCs were causing CCD? If beekeepers won't stand up for the environment, who will?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If I had to cremate a hive I would use a shop vac discharge to force draught the fire. It has to be burned in an excavated hole and that is not an easy scenario to make a natural draught fire. I have burned plastic siding and eaves trough material in a barrel using the shop vac trick and it burns surprisingly hot and smoke free that way. If it smolders it is mean smoke. I am technically in town limits so again hypothetically I would need an open fire burn permit.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

crofter said:


> . I am technically in town limits so again hypothetically I would need an open fire burn permit.


My state inspector said 
If I find it.I dig a whole right here and now and up in flames all infected hives go
He didn't sound like he needed anyones permission 
I am with him 

Tommyt


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yes, it is usually easier to get forgiveness than to get permission!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Absolutely riduculous to burn plastic frames. Remove the comb and boil them for 30 minutes and you will have no more live spores than you can find in any hive. They don't know everything in FL.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

And in the removing the comb you have contact with the comb and more risk of bees escaping and contaminating other hives. How much do they know in New York?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Eastern Regional Research Lab tested the Thermal Resistance of Bacillus Larvae
AHB spores can withstand 100 degrees Centigrade (boiling point of water) for 160 minutes
110 C 230 F for 41 minutes
132 C 270 F for 1.9 minutes
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC169683/pdf/jbacter00007-0029.pdf
Plastic frames would be molten blobs long before the AHB spores "woke up" or died.
This is also something to consider when scorching woodenware. It may not reach 270 F for two minutes.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

If your state requires burning AFB hives you don't have much choice. The small amount of plastic in a beehive is not going to be a disaster for the environment. The other choice is having them irradiated if your state allows this and if you can find a facility that does irradiation. However, you still have to kill the bees somehow; I would look into bagging and smothering them or using CO2. Using chemicals or gasoline will negate using the equipment again.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Re: boiling plastic frames, don't feed the trolls.

Re: burning plastic, it's illegal to burn trash most everywhere, but maybe not in Texas. :shhhh:

Burn it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

tommyt said:


> My state inspector said
> If I find it.I did a whole right here and now and up in flames all infected hives go
> He didn't sound like he needed anyones permission
> I am with him
> ...


Doesn't need anyone permission? He sure does need legal standing to destroy your property. And he'd better know where to dig so he doesn't cut any power lines or gas lines like what happened here in NY 5 years ago.

In Ohio an Apaiary Inspector inspected a hive, found AFB and burned. Then he informed the beekeeper, who took the State of OH to court. It almost destroyed Ohios Apiary Inspection Program.

An alternative to burning in the ground yourself is to do deep burial, either yourself or in a Landfill Project. I participated in such a burial in a landfill while working for NYS Apiary Inspection one year when there were 75 hives to destroy and the local landfill was being readied for closing.

Another case where burial or burning on the beekeepers' property wasn't practical, we delivered the infected matertial to Long Island Incineration.

There are alternatives to burning.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"So, does there exist an environmentally-friendly and legal way to dispose of AFB infected plastic frames? " - in Australia you can transport the gear in sealed plastic bags and have it all incinerated in a high temperature incinarator ( Local Authorities generally have them - Landfills are now mostly part of history) In some areas you would have access to Gamma Iradiation but you would have to remove the honey. I have seen specially designed high temp steamers which will destroy AFB .
I'm phasing all my plastic-end frames - they are SHB heaven


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

max2 said:


> "
> I'm phasing all my plastic-end frames - they are SHB heaven


Phasing out or phasing in? My wooden frames were wax moth heaven....


And in Texas, we encourage dirty coal plants because they are cheap and lots of kickbacks go in the governor's re-election fund. We can burn outdoors unless a city ordinance specifically says otherwise, or a burn-ban is in effect due to drought. Lots of Texas isn't in city limits. Lots doesn't have trash service. Move to Texas, go back in time.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

i had AfB in one of my first hives when i first started it had to be burned since then i don't use plastic foundation any more..lucky i only had one hive then...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC169683/pdf/jbacter00007-0029.pdf





> Although Burnside (1945) reported that "boiling for 30 minutes can be depended upon to destroy the virulence of Bacillus larvae under ordinary conditions",


The paper refers to killing spores in honey so you could use the honey as feed for un-infected colonies.

No one said anything about saving the honey for feed. He wanted to kill most of the spores in plastic frames without burning them. It is possible he could put the frames in a sanitizing bath after boiling them and reduce the numbers further. AFB spores are everywhere. What is the sense of killing every last spore in a few frames if every other hive has some of the spores anyway but no infection?

The honey, wax and bees can be disposed of by any acceptable means including incineration if that is your choice.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Reusing plastic frames after removal of comb hasn't been satisfactory at all in my experience. The bees don't build comb on them for some reason.

My opinion on the subject of plastic foundation combs infected w/ AFB is that they should be recycled in some way, but not reused. Burial or burning. Burning may be less eco friendly. But, the plastic and the AFB spores will last indefinitely.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What I am hearing is you have to dip the frames in hot wax to give them a thin coat. That in itself is a disinfectant. I only have a few frames that I got from buying nucs. Wood is cheaper and more natural so I like that route.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you boil plasrtic frames hot enuf to remove all the wax the frames will become unuseable. They'll warp and curl. Especially if you put them thru a wax melter.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Advice sure is easy to get: correct advice is a bit more elusive!

It has been kicked around to great length how unlucky you have to be to get AFB, and that traces are virtually everywhere, however when there is a known infection source it seems irresponsible for people to take token or hearsay methods of destroying infected hive components.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

crofter said:


> Advice sure is easy to get: correct advice is a bit more elusive!


That does seem to be the case. I'm waiting to hear about a magic wand treatment. 
But seriously, diseases do go dormant, and lay dormant until conditions are just right for them to multiply. I don't know that much about bees. I know a fair amount about fish and mammals.

I have tracked a temperature sensitive bacteria, without the aid of a microscope, ID'd it and found treatments in fish. Then the beggar mutated on me, find new treatment. That bacteria didn't turn up until 1997, got the first case in a fish from petsmart.. spread right through my quarantine tanks, temps didn't kill it, just stopped it from multiplying and the fish appeared healthy. 

I eventually id'd and found an effective treatment for a humidity sensitive organism living in my cat's ears, that my vet failed to treat. Happy to charge me 900 for the surgery and sell me hundreds in ineffective products. Would have been thrilled if my other cats got it, I'm sure. That's big money.

Just because an organism is everywhere in the environment doesn't mean it is in an active multiplying state. And an organism that is in an active multiplying state is many times more hazardous than a dormant one. At least in fish and mammals. Waiting for an entomologist before someone comes along and cuts this thin limb I'm perched on....


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## Corvair68 (May 10, 2011)

Frames aren't expensive enough to warrant trying to save them and risk infecting more hives. I'd hate to ever have to do it, but if I ever found AFB in a hive, I would leave my gloves, tool and anything else that touched that hive there and torch it all.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

The article actually reported AHB spore mortality in diluted honey, water, and beeswax and in the dry state.
They withstood beeswax at 100 C 212 F for 5 days. Dipping in melted beeswax is ineffective also.
"Although Burnside (1945) reported that "boiling for 30 minutes can be depended
upon to destroy the virulence of Bacillus larvae under ordinary conditions",
the authors have been advised (Hambleton, 1950) that any processing
of honey for bee feeding must guarantee absence of viable spores of this organism,
not simply destruction of virulence. Burnside (1940a) has reviewed the literature
on the heat resistance of B. larvae spores and investigated the thermal resistance
of the spores in diluted honey, water, and beeswax and in the dry state. He
reported growth in a culture of spores boiled in water or exposed to flowing steam
for 7 hours, boiled for 5 hours in 50 per cent honey, autoclaved in water at 15
pounds per square inch for 25 minutes or dry for 40 minutes, exposed to 98 C
dry heat for 2 days or in beeswax for 5 days at 100 C."


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

But fire does kill the bacteria and spores?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

As long as you hold it over 270 F doe two minutes. Rather than scientific data, what is the chance of infecting the rest of your hives worth?


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> As long as you hold it over 270 F doe two minutes. Rather than scientific data, what is the chance of infecting the rest of your hives worth?


I meant burning the whole hive, equipment and all. Or does it need to be buried as well. 

Gypsi


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## oblib (Oct 28, 2011)

In Illinois you must burn it then bury it at least 6 inches below ground. You are however, allowed to only "scorch" the hive bodies.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Hive bodies don't cost that much.


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## oblib (Oct 28, 2011)

I agree and if I ever have afb i will burn it all.


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## kjbann (Jun 30, 2009)

This is probably borderline off topic, but a local longtime beekeeper tells of having AFB, shaking the bees out a few hundred feet away, then replacing the burned hive with different equipment and the colony survived with no problems. Not sure I'd feel confident enough to try it, but curious if anyone else has done the same. Also, I don't know if the letter of the law was satisfied.
Ken


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Shaking bees from an infected hive can be done successfully. But, if there are other hives in the apiary and one did what you described, I'd be concerned about spreading nursebees w/ high spore counts in their system into the other colonies in the yard.

Shaking bees in the grass is usually done when a drone laying queen is present or a laying worker is present. Maybe you misunderstood what you were told or the teller didn't tell it right. Shaking bees from an infected hive into a box of foundation, then feeding the colony, will force the spores in the digestive system of the worker bees thru their system and out thru the wax glands, being as they now need comb for the queen to lay in.

I have done this before, coming back to find an empty hive the next morning. Those bees probably joined up w/ another colony or they swarmed. Some things don't work if you let them. Not always.


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## kjbann (Jun 30, 2009)

No misunderstanding. The hive had AFB. Bees were shook out in the grass a distance away. A new hive was set up where the old one was. I'm not sure if he scorched the boxes or used different ones, but I know the frames were burned. He says the colony survived. I doubt I would have the nerve to try this myself. I'd probably burn the whole shootin' match.
Ken


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

As a molecular biologist I regularly autoclave various flasks, liquids, etc. to kill heat-resistant spores. I acquired two used hives (sitting after bees died/absconded last year) a month or so ago and ran them through the autoclave (1 hour at 121 C) after cutting away the wax - just as a precaution as there was no evidence of AFB. But if I ever find AFB in my hives I plan to autoclave and reuse rather than burning. 

Apparently dipping in very hot (145-170 C) molten paraffin is equally effective.



> Aims: The aim of the study is to examine the disinfection of wood contaminated with Paenibacillus larvae subsp. larvae spores, in order to find a practical decontamination method for hive materials.
> 
> Methods and Results: The number of viable spores recovered after the treatment, on the surface by swabbing, and in the deeper parts of the wood by scraping, was used to test the efficiency of the disinfection. Our results indicate that chemical disinfection is only complete when high concentrations (> 50%) of the disinfectant are used. Heat treatment in general was found to be very effective. The scorching of wood was not satisfactory as it only killed spores at the surface.
> 
> ...


Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2672.2001.01376.x/full
W. Dobbelaere, D.C. De Graaf, W. Reybroeck, E. Desmedt, J.E. Peeters, and F.J. Jacobs. 2001. Disinfection of wooden structures contaminated with Paenibacillus larvae subsp. larvae spores. Journal of Applied Microbiology 2001: 212-216.

Burning seems wasteful to me. Considering a hive and its woodenware is worth about $100 (at consumer prices), it would seem that decontamination (irradiation, autoclave, chemical, molten paraffin) is a better option. There might even be a market for someone to set up an autoclave and charge for hive decontamination services, or for a firm that is already in the sterilization business to offer their services to beekeepers. If such services existed there could then be a requirement that all used equipment (not containing live bees) be decontaminated before sale, which would both bolster the decontamination business and go a long way toward eliminating AFB.

~Mark


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There are irradiation facilities here and there. I understand they exist in MA and PA, but have no experience w/ them. Travel time, convenience, cost, efficiency. All these things come into play when deciding the best course of action.

Having no experience w/ an autoclave, how many deep supers can you get into the one you used? How long would each need to be kept inside it? How portable is such a thing? How much does one cost? Could a cooperative club afford one? A Statewide organization?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

oblib said:


> You are however, allowed to only "scorch" the hive bodies.


Makes you wonder doesn't it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think sterilization costs would outweigh the equipment costs as a hunch. I also don't think a sterilization facility (doing medical sterilization) can or would want anything known as an infection coming in to there facility. Most facilities are sterilising clean products. I am not sure but I think most hospitals autoclave there own equipment so they don't have to deal with shipping out contaminated equipment. Personally, I am not in favor of reusing the bee equipment but I am totally against burning plastic. There is no doubt how bad that is for everyone.

The procedures for handling AFB are all different depending on where you are. Because they are different none of them are affective in controlling AFB


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Wonder what? Proper scorching burns what spores exist on the wooden surface and then the chard remains are scraped away. So, what is there left of the infectious material?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have a solution. Place a steel barrel over the hive which has a chimney at the top and a blower at the bottom. Instant furnace. You get high temperature energetic combustion and any plastic inside gets burned in the best conditions for the lowest pollution.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> I have a solution. Place a steel barrel over the hive which has a chimney at the top and a blower at the bottom. Instant furnace. You get high temperature energetic combustion and any plastic inside gets burned in the best conditions for the lowest pollution.


Good idea. Hope I never have to use it, but good idea.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yeah, sure it does.

Mark, wood is porous and has many cracks and splits. Torching it will make it worse. Spores can get in the cracks and pores and be protected from the flame treatment. Torching wooden ware is a beekeeper's joke for handling infections.

Now if you want to do something useful dipping the wooden equipment in hot wax and resin like Michael Bush does would be very effective. The temperature will kill off most of the spores and the wax will seal the spores in. That is the only thing I would consider for reusing equipment. I even think it is a great idea to do it first. Beats painting if you have a lot of hives.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

Acebird said:


> AFB spores are everywhere. What is the sense of killing every last spore in a few frames if every other hive has some of the spores anyway but no infection?





Acebird said:


> The procedures for handling AFB are all different depending on where you are. Because they are different none of them are affective in controlling AFB


The procedures may differ a little but most places have laws to protect the rest of us from people who think no treatment is required for AFB.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Spores can get in the cracks and pores and be protected from the flame treatment.
> 
> The temperature will kill off most of the spores and the wax will seal the spores in.


I don't see how one or the other of these methods make spores more accessible to the bees that need to take them up into their mouths. Do you see spores moving away from the heat and the flames of a fire to hide out in the pours and cracks of a hive body only to emerge again once the danger has past?

Fine, do what you want to do. I am only stating what is a common method of addressing a problem which WORKS. 

The temps necassary to do a Hot Dip will kill the spores, but the heat generated in a chimney fire made up of a stack of supers won't? Bah humbug.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> The procedures for handling AFB are all different depending on where you are. Because they are different none of them are affective in controlling AFB


Laws pertining to the possession of and destroying of AFB tainted bees and equipment may vary from State to State, but best practices are well know and well used throughout the industry.

"none of them are affective in controlling AFB."? Tell that to those whokept bees in the middle of the 20th Century in the United States. AFB levels are under control as much as is possible, due to hygenic traits in bees, identification and destruction of infected colonies and equipment and drugs such as TM and Tylosin.

Maybe when you use the word "controlling" you mean eradication?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Yeah, sure it does.
> 
> Mark, wood is porous and has many cracks and splits. Torching it will make it worse. Spores can get in the cracks and pores and be protected from the flame treatment. Torching wooden ware is a beekeeper's joke for handling infections.


For a two hive beekeeper w/ two years experience you sure are opinionated. Oh, yeah, you fit the Randy Oliver criteria of an expert, I forgot. My mistake.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe when you use the word "controlling" you mean eradication?


Yes, I do mean eradication.

The OP was looking for an answer on what to do with plastic frames. I suggested boiling which may not be the best answer by itself but it is a far cry better answer than torching wooden equipment and using it again. Drugs like TM treat the disease in the honeybee and don't do anything to the spores which is why if you elect to treat you can't stop. In the case of TM the disease is not under control it is just dormant until you stop the chemical warfare. That practice should be definitely outlawed if you have any concern for anyone else.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

In the description of a few products for AFB it says "for treatment or prevention" by this are the maker of these products saying don't burn your hive or equipment but treat with our product?

Has anyone treated with these products with success without burning hives? How long are you AFB free? Has it spread to other hive? Do you treat all your hives?


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

People are really overthinking and overengineering this whole process, I think. Ever burned old hive parts? They burn hot. Pounds of wax and propolis in them makes them burn like giant candles. I don't think you'd need to rig up any way to make the fire hotter.

As far as burning plastic, sure it probably isn't good for the environment. But, chemically, plastics are not all that different from other petroleum products that are burned (gas and diesel). And what do you suppose gets burned in those incinerators at landfills that have been mentioned in this thread? I doubt they sort all the plastic out before burning it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There was at one time some concern over wording on Tylosin packages because the label read something like "for the cure of AFB". Which it can't do once the colony has vegetative spores present in the brood cells.

Ace, if you mean eradication why don't you say eradication. Your statement about control is incorrect. The word "control" when used to refer to diseases and pests means that the outbreaks of disease are kept to an economically acceptable level. That is what we have now.

Could we inspect and collect information from every colony of bees in NY State we would find an AFB infection rate well below 10% and probably below 5%. Compared to Historically high levels that is great control.

This disease, like all diseases and pests, will not be eradicated. It isn't economically worthwhile to try to eradicate AFB. You may work to do so w/in your own bees, but the infectious agent is always around. Like the viruses which cause the common cold.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Kieck said:


> I doubt they sort all the plastic out before burning it.


If they are legal and operating within specifications they scrub the toxic fumes from the exhaust. That is what makes the operation of an incinerator expensive.
Plastics are very different than burning liquid fuels. Burning wood is more pollutant then burning liquid fuels.


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## pascal (Oct 1, 2010)

Not sure it's a good idea but I will try to give you my way of solution:

AFB spores are killed by temperature so:
place all your plastic frames in a big garbage bag and place the bag overnight in a freezer.
then shake all frame upon an old barrel, freezed wax will easily crack and fall down in the barrel, and discard the unwaxed frame in another old barrel.
then you can burn the wax in one barrel. 
for the barrel containing the plastic, place it upon a fire (made with the wood equipment you have to burn) and let the plastic meltdown long enough to sterilize.


I already do that one day when I try to clean a few frames and forget to put some water in the barrel. The time I came back, all the frames was melt in the bottom. 
Also, freezing is cheap and simple when you live in canada.

please everybody feel free to hardly criticize

pascal


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Pascal, the problem I see with sorting and separating materials that contain AFB is that you would spread them around and expose them more. If bees are flying they will be feasting.

If I ever need to burn the whole shebang will be in the fire: it costs me $6 material to build a box and I sure as heck ain't gonna burn and scrape a box for that. The work of building a new box is more pleasurable.

I do make a concession though for toast! If I burn it a bit dark I scrape it back to the colour I like.
There at least I am not screwing around with the potential ( yes, remotely) of fatally infecting other peoples bees.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Ding Ding! We have the correct answer. Thank you crofter.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

I got the lab report yesterday" two more hives infected" - this morning at 4am I opened the two hives, poured a cup of petrol ( gasoline) into the hives and covered them with a large plastic bag.
This is no fun but I really try to stop the rest of my hives getting infected.
I'm not sure where the AFB came from. It is here. I may well have spread it by moving a frame from here to there - part of managing hives. I don't let the bees clean stickies, extractor or buckets. I clean my hive tool between hives. I return the frames to the same hive they came from after extracting the honey. I clean my SHB traps and soak them in bleach.
The inspector told me that ( in Australia) AFB is more common then we would think - Beekeepers don't talk about it.
We have a total fire ban at the moment.
When it is lifted I plan to burn the lot - sound frames with lovely straight foundations, near new suppers, lids and bottoms. These where strong and very productive hives. Killing the bees was the worst - indeed traumatic. Burning the wood ware ( no plastic) will only hurt the hip pocket.
I have gamma plant about 120 km away from here but I doubt it is worth the hassle.
Just hope that I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel - and that the rest of you can avoid AFB.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

You could have skipped the petrol and gone with the bag. They would have suffocated pretty rapidly. After that, I wouldn't even want to keep all the stuff even if it was irradiated, all the fumes.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Here's hoping you're through Max!


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> You could have skipped the petrol and gone with the bag. They would have suffocated pretty rapidly. After that, I wouldn't even want to keep all the stuff even if it was irradiated, all the fumes.


Yes, I'm aware of this - even so they took about 5 minutes to die. Horrible. I wonder if there is a quicker way?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

max2 said:


> These where strong and very productive hives.


This is disturbing. I was under the impression that a strong hive would not have an outbreak. Can you briefly describe your management practices, treatments, feedings, and frame manipulations. Anything you can think of that would cause stress to your bees?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ace, quite often the strongest/most populous colony has the disease. They are strong enuf to rob the source hive and they are raising brood, feeding AFB tainted honey to the nurse bees directly.

max, that is about thew fastest way of killing a hive, unfortunately. Had you simply bagged the hive, as, I believe, Sol suggested as an adequate method, it would have taken alot longer to kill the bees in the hive. More than 24 hours and maybe longer. If one can talk about being humane regarding the killing of bees, what you did was probably more humane.

When I deal w/ an AFB hive of my own, quite often I will carry the hive to the burn barrel, start a fire w/ combs void of bees and then toss the beeladen combs into the fire one at a time. That seems to do the job.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Wouldn't there be a lot of bees that are airborne that don't make it to the fire?

I wouldn't think the honey will burn so does it just flow to the bottom of the barrel and put the fire out or just drizzle out some bottom holes?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't find that to be a noticeable problem. Quite often there isn't as much honey as you may be imagining.

Burning in a bartrel was an alternative to inground burning used by NYS Apiary Inspectors.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If your hive had supers on it isn't there a possibility of a lot of honey or don't you burn the supers and frames?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, yes. That could be the case. But, usually such a colony does not produce alot of honey.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

I've burned frames with some honey in them and ended up with nothing but ash, wires, and nails. Once the wax and wood start burning I can't imagine honey putting out the fire. I assume that the heat of the fire evaporates the water from the honey and then the honey, being carbon based, burns too.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

A couple of points-

Burning of plastic- All plastic is not the same, if your frames are say, high density polyethylene (recycled milk bottles) or PETE (recycled soda bottles) the combustion products would be expected to be similar to a burning paraffin candle. If they were made of PVC (polyvinyl chloride, used to make pipe) or polyurethane the products of combustion would be much worse.

Sterilization in flame- Flame and it's hot byproducts contain lots of free radicals, very reactive, not quite complete molecules that really "want" to complete themselves and are quite able to rip atoms from other things in order to be complete. For example hot carbon monoxide strongly attracts another oxygen (from iron oxide in iron smelting) to become carbon dioxide. The molecules of living things are not strong enough to resist this assault and are broken at temperatures well below those needed to destroy them by heat alone.

Bill


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Gypsi said:


> Here's hoping you're through Max!


Thanks - I wish but would not be surprised if I have to deal with the same situation again in the future. this is one challenging issue.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Acebird said:


> This is disturbing. I was under the impression that a strong hive would not have an outbreak. Can you briefly describe your management practices, treatments, feedings, and frame manipulations. Anything you can think of that would cause stress to your bees?


Pretty similar to many keepers on this forum: I keep my frames clean. restore/replace all the wooden ware regularly, practice strict hygiene processes.
I do not treat my bees with anything ( I use DR in a trap ( two per hive) to deal with SHB, we don't have to feed as we have flowering plants pretty well all the time
I keep the same frames to each five but from time to time I may need to take a frame with young brood to help a queenless hive. I do collect swarms, I do splits.
There is no reason for my bees to be stressed - I never move them, there is plenty of forage and the climate is never super hot or cold.
We don't ( as far as we know) have Varroa in Australia bu we have to deal with SHB - I checked today and the numbers are low. 
AFB is in my valley. This was the reason why I inspected all the brood.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"max, that is about thew fastest way of killing a hive, unfortunately. Had you simply bagged the hive, as, I believe, Sol suggested as an adequate method, it would have taken alot longer to kill the bees in the hive. More than 24 hours and maybe longer. If one can talk about being humane regarding the killing of bees, what you did was probably more humane."

Thanks - good to know!


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"I wouldn't think the honey will burn so does it just flow to the bottom of the barrel and put the fire out or just drizzle out some bottom holes? "
I can tell you from experience that the burning of boxes, frames , wax and honey results in a very hot fire - just nails and any metal left - and ash.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When did you get SHB in Oz? What year? Do you know? How did they get there?


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## amethysta (Jul 23, 2011)

whiskers said:


> A couple of points-
> 
> Burning of plastic- All plastic is not the same
> 
> Bill


Good point. Does anyone know what kind of plastic is used in bee frames?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't know but my guess is some kind of nylon.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

max2 said:


> I do collect swarms, I do splits.
> ...AFB is in my valley. This was the reason why I inspected all the brood.


If AFB is in your valley and you collect swarms you increase your risk of spreading the disease unless somehow you know that the swarms are your own clean stock.
Now that he had an outbreak what practices should he do (beyond burning the hive) to limit another outbreak in his apiary?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

For the most part, swarms are not a great source of AFB. Especially if they are put on foundation and allowed to draw foundation into comb, where any spores contained in the bees themselves will end up in the comb wax. So, I would not be concerned about gathering swarms.

I'm not sure what max means by "AFB is in my valley.". Does that mean others in his area also have AFB?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

That's confusing. If there is no concern that a swarm comes from an infected hive then why is it necessary to burn an infected hive and the bees? If you shook off the bees into another hive with fresh foundation and fed them wouldn't that be the same?

You could burn the brood from the infected hive and extract the honey and eat it. No?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes. This is true. But, not for the beginner. Shaking infected bees onto foundation doesn't always work out well. Whereas a swarm is of plentiful population and in comb production mode when it arrives or is collected. They are primed for comb production.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

" 
I'm not sure what max means by "AFB is in my valley.". Does that mean others in his area also have AFB? "

Yes, another keeper a few miles away lost about 2/3 of his hives to AFB.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"extract the honey and eat it. No? "
Correct - the honey is safe to eat. There is of course a risk that during extraction bees could pick up some honey....I decided to burn the lot.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

max2 said:


> Yes, another keeper a few miles away lost about 2/3 of his hives to AFB.


2/3 of how many? Do you have an Apiary Inspector? I forgot if you mentioned one. What, if anything, did the Inspector advise?


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> 2/3 of how many? Do you have an Apiary Inspector? I forgot if you mentioned one. What, if anything, did the Inspector advise?


....of about 60 hives. We have a Apiary Inspector. He is looking after a huge area and spends most of his time in an office answering questions. Advice: burn, minimise risk, be ready for more.No chemicals ar permitted for AFB ( and I agree as there is no cure)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What does the Inspector advise you do to minimize risk? Does the Inspector advise against swarm collection? Does the Inspector advise numbering or lettering of supers and only using the same supers and frames on the same hives?

You should have a decent idea of what AFB looks like now, a certain familiarity. So, is regular visual inspection of your brood combs now part of your management program?


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> What does the Inspector advise you do to minimize risk? Does the Inspector advise against swarm collection? Does the Inspector advise numbering or lettering of supers and only using the same supers and frames on the same hives?
> I think he called it " levels of risk" . Ideally you would change your clothing, gloves, tools...after each hive. For most of us this is simply not practical so we use " common sense" and clean hive tools, wash clothing when needed.
> Yes, he does recommend keeping frames with the same hives. Again not practical for large operations. In my case I use a colour system - a gree peg goes with the frames and another green peg stays with the hive they came from. next red and so on...it is easy and works well for me.
> 
> ...


It has always been, but much more so now and yes, I do recognise the signs. Somewhat surprised that the trick with the match which is mentioned so often did not work for me.
Robert R wrote a lot on AFB not long ago and such discussions have been very valuable as well as all the other comments.


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