# Horizontal deep hives



## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Ain't that purty! I currently use horizontal top bar hives. I don't want to lift a deep box and for some reason never started with medium 8 frames (they weigh as much as a 10 frame super). 

This is my second winter with horizontal top bar hives. Dimensions: They have the inner dimensions to fit a Lang deep frame, but no groove to hold one it without a gap on either side of the frame at the edge of the box. I use bars that essentially make an inner cover when they are pushed together. When I used frames, I either used a piece of plywood 5 frames long as a series of inner covers, single frame-to-bar pieces, or a towel. It's important to not have the whole hive exposed for the bees' sense of well-being. I can hold up to about 30 frames or 26 bars. That would be the equivalent of 2 deeps and a shallow super, which I figured was about right to encourage frequent harvesting. 

I have lost horizontal top bar hives, due to varroa and undetected queenlessness. No fallen comb unless I was being inept. I have not lost any to starvation or inability to move horizontally in the cold - yet. We are in a cold snap now, bet Dane Cty looks different now than in your photos!  If they are still alive by next weekend, when we hit 30, then I will call that a win. I have seen reports of starvation in horizontal hives but it is hard to know if that is a feature or was unique to their situation. I do know ferals can survive winter in a log that is fallen on its side - assuming the colony moved in after the log fell!!!

Have you built yet? Even if you have, I suggest going to the top bar section of the forum and asking the same question. 

some things I love about a horizontal hive:
Tracking the ebb and flow of the size of the brood nest. It's pretty dynamic and easy to detect.
Watching new comb be built
Minimal disturbance to the bees - assuming I'm not monkeying in the brood nest. That gets noticed.  I've seen them washboarding the bottom, they are so undisturbed.
Less lifting! 

Some notes on building/modifying an empty horizontal hive (do not recommend making many modifications with power tools with bees inside):
1. I recommend thinking carefully about your varroa treatment approach. If you will put a substance in, do a mock up of the method of choice in your hive with bars/frames to see how it will work before finalizing plans. If you plan to do drone frame removal, unlike in a Lang or Dadant the drone brood is pretty concentrated at the "rear/away from entrance" end, before the honey storage zone. Drone comb does not get built symmetrically on both sides of the brood nest. Not a big problem actually, just a weird factoid. I can tell you with bars, the only way I am finding to do OAV (without opening the hive) is to cut a hole in the bottom of the hive and hold the wand up to the hold. I would have to use frames and build the hive deeper if I wanted to slid the wand in under the brood nest. Next year I will have a screened bottom board and either just hold the wand up to that or if there is too much OA sticking to the hardware cloth I will finagle another way with a screened bottom board. I want the screened bottom board to be able to monitor mite drop after OAV. 

2. I have my entrance on the narrow end of the hive. I will be changing it to be about 4-6 inches in from the long side - so the bees still keep their brood nest at one end, not the middle, and I can open the brood nest first without pulling bars across their front door. 

3. It is possible to have the entrance too small. A friend had a Kenyan top bar hive with a slot about 4 in long by less than 1/2 in depth. It led to backup at the entrance during a nectar flow and to comb falling inside the hive when there were no inspections, indicating the hive got too hot inside. I use 3 holes a bit bigger than a wine cork. 

I will be starting Dadant deeps with supers this year to see if they are a better option for an outyard. Do you run Dadant deeps? Any stories or tips? I know Siwolke just started with Dadant deeps and someone else here uses them who's down south - name escapes me.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I ran one for 2 seasons and quit doing it because I couldnt move the hive. The commercial in my area told me how he used to run 2 colonies vertically when he was younger, so I ran mine with 2 colonies, one on each end. It was pretty cool. The saving grace was that I used standard deep frames in it so I was able to move the bees out of the long hive and into deep boxes easily.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

trishbookworm said:


> Have you built yet?


Well, yes.
This is what I run as we speak (the hive above is mine).

Got 20-framer and three 16-framers in my heavy park so far.
Want to build a 14-framer to get a feel for it. Need 2-3 more 16-framers.
Also want to build another a heavy 20-framer for the backyard just to run nucs in it.

Got temporary 12-framers and 10-framers and a load of 6-7 framers too (for nucs and traps). 
These just get thrown around for anything (good for caught swarms when in a pinch).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

rwurster said:


> I ran one for 2 seasons and quit doing it because I couldnt move the hive..


Moving and setting these is, pretty much, two-man job. 
So just plan for a two-man crew when moving a rig and call it done.
Though, very easy to move for two people and is ergonomic too (my wife or a kid help me). 
Most importantly, you do not twist with a load in hands - the worst move kind for the spine.
Once the rig is setup - no more heavy lifting.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

trishbookworm said:


> Minimal disturbance to the bees - assuming I'm not monkeying in the brood nest. That gets noticed.  I've seen them washboarding the bottom, they are so undisturbed.
> Less lifting!
> 
> 1. I recommend thinking carefully about your varroa treatment approach.
> ...


Lifting is bad for my back and a shoulder... No spare body parts left. 

1. I am TF... No issues here. So. 
2. I got two entrances as pictured so to run two colonies side-by-side OR just one colony. I can run the cold way or the warm way or both ways at once, as needed.
3. I just run 4 1/2 inch holes at the bottom (this is equal to 1 inch round in area); plug them all or partially if/as needed with some spindles or any old stick or even a ball of mud or grass.
4. Mine are set for Lang frames turned vertically (either medium frames or deep frames work fine). Two Lang mediums tied together, actually, are just about a Dadant deep in size.


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## beechet (Jan 4, 2018)

The horizontal deeps have become an obsession to me and your idea of using 2 lang meds makes all the sense in the world. anything you can share on making a build?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

You can read here for now:
http://forum.tfbees.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=890
I also have some notes regarding traps on that site, just look around.

(Not posting much on that forum any longer; thinking to just start my own site regarding the hives and such).


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## Broglea (Jul 2, 2013)

I don't run super deeps like you. I do run horizontal hives with normal deep frames. This would be my third year with them. So far really no issues.


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## beechet (Jan 4, 2018)

I can't believe it but I never scrolled down and saw that Dr Leo put two together. But if you never intended to use Layens frames would you use this method or make mods to the depth and whatever else needed to be a permanent lang / layens box? I would never have found that if you hadn't pointed me back there. Thanks


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

beechet said:


> I can't believe it but I never scrolled down and saw that Dr Leo put two together. But if you never intended to use Layens frames would you use this method or make mods to the depth and whatever else needed to be a permanent lang / layens box? I would never have found that if you hadn't pointed me back there. Thanks


I talk to Dr. Leo time to time.
Below is his advice to me.
However, I did not want to switch to a frame completely incompatible to Lang.
Reasons are many; one reason - already had a batch of Lang mediums frames on hand.
So I turned Lang frames 90 degrees; tied them in pairs, and built my hives around them.

> > If I were to start a project like yours in your climate, I would only
> > consider: 1) vertical (standard) Langstroth, wrapped well for the winter
> > - also Lang. deep bodies can be used for swarm traps - very convenient,
> > or 2) Layens.
> >
> > There's much to be said for the standard Lang. equipment. However, in
> > your climate a horizontal Langstroth will require VERY substantial
> > insulation to work well - see, for example, here - and pay attention to
> > how much they have to wrap their hives in NY state:
> > http://www.beebehavior.com/modified_european_long_hive.php It would
> > work OK in most winters, but if a winter is particularly severe or has
> > repeated swings of temperature, a long Lang. becomes precarious in the
> > north. All classical horizontal frame hives in N. Europe had frames that
> > were narrow - 12" or so - and deep (at least 16").
> >
> > Layens would be a much better option (I know beekeepers who overwinter
> > their Layens successfully even in Montana!) - better shape and
> > heat-retention properties. Yes I know it's not compatible with standard
> > equipment, but difficult to kill two birds with one stone.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Broglea said:


> I don't run super deeps like you. I do run horizontal hives with normal deep frames. This would be my third year with them. So far really no issues.
> View attachment 37236


Looks pretty cool and probably fine for Indiana.

One reason to go deeper (or taller) in colder winters - the storage profile of taller hives is better for wintering.
With shallow frames set horizontally, it is harder to jump sideways (frame to frame to frame) when you run out of food and it is deep freeze for weeks.
With deeper body, bees have more honey stores above the heads - less of a need to cross frames sideways.

One other way to stay compatible to Langs, I have seen some Australian fellow builds his hives around two deep Lang frames stapled together. 
So he has double-deep Lang hives expanding sideways. It is on youtube.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

And, BTW, don't shy away from not having frames handy either.
This past summer I totally ran out of equipment with all the swarm trapping and split making.

I simply ran blank top bars (modified for deep hive - added partial end-bars to prevent them from attaching to the walls).
Works great.
People get obsessed with frames/wires/foundation/blah..
None of these are required. 
When in a pinch, a top bar with a guide stick stapled to it is sufficient.
Here is an example - a top bar from scrap plywood/partial end bars pulled from a scrap pile.
Bees don't care.


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## aiannar974 (Mar 29, 2017)

Has anyone run horizontal hives with the frames turned 90 deg from what has been talk about here? I think it could be done with deep boxes with the sides removed and a support bar for the frames. Would that make it easier for the bees to move left and right? Maybe bees dont care, comb is pretty messy in the wild. Here is someone elses thoughts on horizontal hives. 

I saw a comment about OAV maybe difficult but I would think the dribble method would be real easy. I would think OAV would not like to float though all the frames in a horizontal setup.

https://jamesroe.blogspot.com/p/horizontal-vs-vertical-hives.html#comment-form


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

aiannar974 said:


> Has anyone run horizontal hives with the frames turned 90 deg from what has been talk about here? I think it could be done with deep boxes with the sides removed and a support bar for the frames. Would that make it easier for the bees to move left and right? Maybe bees dont care, comb is pretty messy in the wild. Here is someone elses thoughts on horizontal hives.
> 
> I saw a comment about OAV maybe difficult but I would think the dribble method would be real easy. I would think OAV would not like to float though all the frames in a horizontal setup.
> 
> https://jamesroe.blogspot.com/p/horizontal-vs-vertical-hives.html#comment-form


Next season I plan to start using frames both cold and warm ways (see pics).
Yes - you can simply use a support bar as needed and run frames either way (whatever is needed and works for the moment).
The thing is very, very flexible. 
Turn regular Lang frame 90 degrees; cut the ears off; screw in top new bar; done.
Drop the frame in. 
Either use regular Lang deep/meduim frame OR use strapped double-mediums OR build custom frames.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> Is anyone here running deep horizontals (like the attached pics)?
> I do, so would be interested exchange of ideas and experiences while on winter break.


Yes - it has become my favourite format. This is how I accidently 'discovered' Long Deeps: http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek12.htm and I've since modified a couple of stand-alone Long Hives to take Deep (12") frames. I still have quite a few vertical hives here, which I prefer for queen-rearing - but Deep Long Hives are proving to be ideal for the prolific bees I have at this location. I've found the use of a 'thermal curtain' (follower board sealed at sides and top) to be important when introducing a new colony into such a large cavity - but once that colony becomes established, it more-or-less takes care of itself, with very little need for any further management.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john, thanks for sharing.
I saw your hives before somewhere.
Will review your work.
Cool!

PS: interesting, but I am building more rather vertical temporary hives for swarm trapping (artificial log hives of sorts); end yet for more permanent apiary, I want horizontal hives


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Never thought the horizontal hives would interest me but lately I think it be a fun build and a easy to manage hive , maybe you guys can help get on the right track . I definitely want to go with lang medium frames as thats what I run in my langs and I think it would be a huge help to be able borrow frames when needed and also I can extract them . I guess the big question is will bee's survive my winters in medium frames , should I make it the same depth as a medium box so bee space is right . Any plans on these hives would be helpful also , thanks .


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

laketrout said:


> I guess the big question is will bee's survive my winters in medium frames , should I make it the same depth as a medium box so bee space is right . Any plans on these hives would be helpful also , thanks .


In your area (PA) I would not do a horizontal hive using Lang medium frame.
Lang deep frame is just an OK case, but people make it work (solid top insulation is a must).
Dadant deep frame is better.
Layens/Ukrainian frame is better still.

You see, doing your design on Lang medium frame you will put your bees at severe disadvantage during the cold season.
Study this site (this is about houses, but beehives are close enough to apply the same ideas).
https://sites.google.com/site/lowenergyhome/architectur

This is just one consideration, based on conditioned 3-D space energy profiles.
There are more, but this alone is big enough to help decide IMO.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I was afraid the mediums might not work in my cold winters ,but thought I read M. Bush had long mediums in Nebraska wonder how they did .


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## Foxfire7893 (Apr 15, 2018)

laketrout said:


> I was afraid the mediums might not work in my cold winters , Thought I read M. Bush had long mediums in Nebraska wonder how they did .


How did they work out? or have you been able to get into your hives yet? 
We built some insulated long boxes using ISO board between plywood as an experiment. Very impressive in many respects, especially with high R Value. Something that we learned is that the open space needs to be closed in using a follower board. In the case of using a smaller frame, the same would be true. The bees can keep the space warm easier if there is less to warm up. We were very impressed with how well our colony over wintered. You can check out some good pics on Superior Hives Facebook page. 

www.BeetleBanisher.com


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## aiannar974 (Mar 29, 2017)

Somewhere on this site I saw a picture of someone using 2 mediums turned 90 deg to create a frame for a horizontal frame that uses std equipment but is at deep as a vertical medium is wide and as wide as two mediums are deep. Would that help the winter?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

laketrout said:


> I was afraid the mediums might not work in my cold winters ,but thought I read M. Bush had long mediums in Nebraska wonder how they did .


Well, you see M. Bush uses *vertical *equipment.
Per the latest he runs standard 8-frame medium boxes.
*Vertical *is the keyword. 

So M. Bush still works by a box (not a frame).
If you work by a frame, it does make sense to make the frame bigger, not smaller.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Foxfire maybe you misunderstood I was talking about medium frame long langs and if they would work out in cold climates , my bee's do fine in regular 10 frame medium langstroth hives .I'm just thinking about building a long lang with med. frames and wondered if they could take the cold .


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

aiannar974 said:


> Somewhere on this site I saw a picture of someone using 2 mediums turned 90 deg to create a frame for a horizontal frame that uses std equipment but is at deep as a vertical medium is wide and as wide as two mediums are deep. Would that help the winter?


This is me.
Two mediums combined into a single frame are just about 100% identical to well known historically Ukrainian frame.



















When I have time, I build the proper frame.
When I have no time, I re-use existing Lang frames by tying them in pairs.
In traps, I just use top-bars and end up with those in the hives too.
Top bars work just as well (initially need care; later they cure and become plenty tough - similar to a typical TBH system).
See pictures.

Ukrainian frame has been in common use in Eastern Europe (predominantly Ukraine proper) over 100 years (this is officially; unofficially longer and who knows how long).
It has bee shown by wide practice that the deep-and-narrow Ukrainian frame is superior over wide-and-shallow frames (Land/Dadant) for wintering and spring built-up.
It also becomes pretty common now to run deep frames in the brood box and standard Land/Dadant mediums in the honey supers (perpendicular configuration).
Easy and makes sense. 
See picture.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

What was drawing me to the horrizontal hive was the easy access to all of the frames for inspection and no lifting but as soon as you start putting frames on top of frames and adding box's on top of frames it seems like you might as well stay with a normal lang other than the novelty and if your looking for something new and different .

Now if it is easy enough to run two medium frames side by side as one frame that might work , how are you holding them together , is it easy to take them apart .


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

laketrout said:


> What was drawing me to the horrizontal hive was the easy access to all of the frames for inspection and no lifting but as soon as you start putting frames on top of frames and adding box's on top of frames it seems like you might as well stay with a normal lang other than the novelty and if your looking for something new and different .
> 
> Now if it is easy enough to run two medium frames side by side as one frame that might work , how are you holding them together , is it easy to take them apart .


Well... 

Firstly - you can stay in horizontal mode at 100% and I intend to do that with my already built large horizontals. 
These are to be managed in ways very similar to TBHs. 
You form the brood nest near the asymmetrically set entrance and you get the honey area removed from the entrance.
One issue there - they are heavy and it takes two-person team to move them (when with bees).
So these are best at a stationary location. 
Great for a backyard.

Secondly, I want to make few smaller and lighter hives (12-14 frame horizontals vs. the current 16-20 framers).
This is for mobility reasons; to be used on remote yards.
One issue with these - these are now cutting a bit too small for summer flows if used as a single-body.
So, to make a honey boomer out of this design, it makes sense for supering on the top.
Otherwise, the entire 12-14 deep body is still the same deep horizontal body good for winter/spring/fall modes.
This is where the nest is and where it stays - the signature of the deep horizontal hives.
You do not have a nest distributed over the 2-3-4 boxes, like in a multi-body Lang or Dadant. 
See the difference? 
You only super IF/WHEN need to capture a large flow (few weeks of the year if needs be; this is an optional feature).
Otherwise, you manage a single body and have exactly that - easy and direct access to every frame. There is no contradiction.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

laketrout said:


> ... how are you holding them together , is it easy to take them apart .


Zip-ties and screwed-in top bar.
If need to take apart - snip the ties and unscrew the bar.
For myself, I am a crush-strain type and don't care of these issues.
If I want to properly extract one day (maybe), I would just drop in the Lang frames with very minimal mods.
Kind of like see on this picture.


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## Foxfire7893 (Apr 15, 2018)

This is part of the fun of bee keeping if you ask me. Go for it. Document it, so that others who have the same ich, can get it scratched by your experience. My only suggestion would be to consider insulating it. We insulated one with foam board and two with ISO board. Foam is easier to work with but the ISO gives so much more insulation per same thickness. I think that you'll be pleasantly surprised. I don't remember the temps right now but our insulated boxes stayed significantly warmer. I have pics if interested.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

I just now saw this thread. I built a horizontal hive, with my own unique dimensions, and frame size. Mainly so I could easily adapt and transfer bars from my top bar hives.

I am very excited about this hive. I transferred a nuc I had made from a split, which seemed to be doing well. Looking forward to seeing the girls make some comb on the frames!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> I just now saw this thread. I built a horizontal hive,... !


What about some pics?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> little_john, thanks for sharing.
> I saw your hives before somewhere.
> Will review your work.
> Cool!


I have to say this..
I should be working now, and yet I am instead reading the website of little_john.
That pallet wood operation fits my ways perfectly. 
That alone is darn contagious!

Really like the material and would like to recreate few ideas IF I only had more space and the time, with the job and the family.
One day.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Thanks guys ...

My sincere apology for not having added any stuff lately - still looking for that elusive 25 hr day and 8-day week !

Have just read a post about a bloke being bored with nothing to do ... strewth ... just start fooling around with a few different 'beekeeping' ideas and then start writing-up a website about them. That's guaranteed to keep a bloke VERY busy !!

This year sees me working with 'half-frames' for the first time - it's been really interesting so far. Still ironing out a few bugs - like bees absconding from one box into another. I know they have their reasons for doing this, it's just figuring out the 'why' of it, so I can modify the setup.

There's also some logistics to figure out - like getting the combs themselves drawn out. I'm doing this in pairs (which then replace a standard deep frame):

 

But - when it comes to getting some choice genetics from a brood nest, that adapter block gets in the way - so I needed some means of getting a half-frame directly into the heart of a brood nest - hence:



Ah well, it's all good fun. Sorry about the thread-drift.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Thanks guys ...
> ....... then* start writing-up a website about them.* That's guaranteed to keep a bloke VERY busy !!
> .........
> LJ


Exactly.
One reason I never decided to do my own website yet - you have to work at it non-stop.
Being in IT business, I like your website (pretty sure - a static web site).
This is exactly how I would do it even in Facebook/Twitter era - a static web site.
Just few simple web pages. Nothing else.
Reasons are many.

Mid summer already.
I had no time for much any hive work.
Only managed to shave off a batch of frames down to 1.25" width.
And modified a couple of temp hives (had to fix my own nagging mistakes).
No time otherwise.

Today for example - I had to go out into the 35C heat in long sleeve/jeans/mosquito net (high humidity and direct sun) and harvest my darn gooseberry patch. Gooseberries are delicious though. Was worth it when finished. Forget honey.


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## EDoubling (Feb 10, 2018)

Greg,
1-I currently have 12 Layens swarm traps with the standard frame depth (Dr. Leo's plans). I am wanting to build a 14 framer deep horizontal hive (similar to Matt's Beekeeping) that will let me adapt to a Lang frame if needed. I will build both deep frames as well as the conversion shims. Should I add a couple of inches in hive depth under the frames, or keep them just off the bottom of the hive? I wonder if there is a benefit to this "deadspace" under the frames. I intend to do a double wall construction with EPS insulation.

2-Can you provide more explanation of the "asymmetric entrance"? I'm not understanding what how this is configured, or why it's a benefit. Thanks.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

EDoubling said:


> Greg,
> 1-I currently have 12 Layens swarm traps with the standard frame depth (Dr. Leo's plans). I am wanting to build a 14 framer deep horizontal hive (similar to Matt's Beekeeping) that will let me adapt to a Lang frame if needed. I will build both deep frames as well as the conversion shims. Should I add a couple of inches in hive depth under the frames, or keep them just off the bottom of the hive? I wonder if there is a benefit to this "deadspace" under the frames. I intend to do a double wall construction with EPS insulation.
> 
> 2-Can you provide more explanation of the "asymmetric entrance"? I'm not understanding what how this is configured, or why it's a benefit. Thanks.


Only briefly now (no time).

1) Yes - I would do about 2" under the frames regardless. No much more; not much less.
Year around proper ventilation (Note - NOT a draft; this is proper forced air ventilation by the bees as should be and what they do).
Uncontrollable swarm urge mitigation.
Can slide a tray with whatever under frames (crush/strain outputs to clean up).
It is only natural to have dead space under the combs.
There will be no burr comb - no worries.

2)Asymmetric entrance makes for much more efficient use of the long hive body (this is less clear with vertical hives, but even there I am still a fan of asymmetry).

Your place the entrance at one end of the long box (NOT the middle).
It only makes sense to have two of these at once (one can be closed off as needed).
Look at typical entrances of TBHs - these are asymmetric (either warm way OR cold way - still asymmetric).
One clear benefit - this creates more or less separation of the brood area and honey area (handy for you).
This also allows for effective usage the follower boards.
This also allows to have primary/secondary entrance as an option (I have the secondary opened now - they only use is for force air ventilation; they always fly via the primary next to the brood nest).
This also allows to have two colonies at once (at different ends).
This also allows to move the colony side to side (say, in spring).

Symmetric entrance used for a long hive - total waste of time and makes for inefficient usage of the hive box (i never understand that symmetric mentality when look at the long hives for sale with symmetric holes along the long side).


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## Claytone (Jul 8, 2018)

I too am in the process of building Layens horizontal hives.
I am using steel insulated garage door panels, ( since I have several extras laying around :lookout, that are 24 inch's tall by 16 feet long by 1.5 inch's thick. These are cut to length using a metal cutting blade on a skil-saw.
Since the inside will be made of metal, my main concern will be humidity control for the hives...(perhaps burlap Vivaldi boards on top, & sphagnum peat "pillows" underneath?)
I am planning on running screened bottoms with Freeman style oil traps running the length, with access from 1 end.
The final exterior dimensions are: 48 inch's long by 24 inch's tall by 18 inch's wide. This gives me the option of 2 hives per side, or combining a weak hive with a strong one.
This is my first post here, so I hope that I am able to contribute in the future to you good folks!!! opcorn::gh:


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## Claytone (Jul 8, 2018)

WOW!!! Thanks for posting this GregV...This quite literally opened my eyes!!!


GregV said:


> And, BTW, don't shy away from not having frames handy either.
> This past summer I totally ran out of equipment with all the swarm trapping and split making.
> 
> I simply ran blank top bars (modified for deep hive - added partial end-bars to prevent them from attaching to the walls).
> ...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Claytone said:


> I too am in the process of building Layens horizontal hives.
> I am using steel insulated garage door panels, ( since I have several extras laying around :lookout, that are 24 inch's tall by 16 feet long by 1.5 inch's thick. These are cut to length using a metal cutting blade on a skil-saw.
> Since the inside will be made of metal, my main concern will be humidity control for the hives...(perhaps burlap Vivaldi boards on top, & sphagnum peat "pillows" underneath?)
> I am planning on running screened bottoms with Freeman style oil traps running the length, with access from 1 end.
> ...


Humidity - should be a non-issue if have 2 inch air space under frames. 
I have various auxiliary ventilation slots cut into the floor (similar to Dr. Leo) and they probably help.
However, the next hive I build, I may just have a totally solid floor. 
Instead, I will make an additional top entrance which will act as both entrance and auxiliary ventilation hole (bees will open/close it as they see fit). 
0.5" should be sufficient. 

My longest hive is 30 inches; solid 2x wood. This is on a heavy side and not good for mobility.
But the garage door material should be light to make it longer still.
For static hive, does not matter much - the longer the better.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Claytone said:


> WOW!!! Thanks for posting this GregV...This quite literally opened my eyes!!!


This is beauty of a single-level, horizontal hive - very, very flexible and you can toss most all the (so-called) rules.

If I have sticks and some burlap to place over them (thick plastic will do as well), I can totally keep bees in any of my hives. 
That's all the equipment required - an empty hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yesterday was splitting a hive and took few pics.
Here is one to show what kinds of hacks are possible in horizontal hive - no sweat. 
It all works. No need to worry of millimeters and the like stuff.


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## Claytone (Jul 8, 2018)

Perfect timing GregV...I just got my E-mail notification that my 1st Layens frames have shipped.
I was too concerned about "bee space" and wanted to have them handy before I "button up" my prototype...lol...
You are setting my mind at ease Amigo!!! 
I have decided on 2: inch & 1/4 entrance holes on each long end, ( 4 total), and 2-4: 1/2 inch auxiliary entrance/ ventilation holes up high that the Girls can propolize if needed. (control of the bottom entrance's with galvanized disks)...
Since my hives will be so deep, I will add open frames on the bottom, ( like your picture ), so they can build to their hearts desire...
When I get further along in my build...and "purty" them up some...I hope to post pictures here...


GregV said:


> Yesterday was splitting a hive and took few pics.
> Here is one to show what kinds of hacks are possible in horizontal hive - no sweat.
> It all works. No need to worry of millimeters and the like stuff.
> View attachment 41937


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Claytone said:


> ..
> I have decided on 2: inch & 1/4 entrance holes on each long end, ( 4 total), and 2-4: 1/2 inch auxiliary entrance/ ventilation holes up high that the Girls can propolize if needed. ..


Unsure what you mean by "each long end".
Here is what I suggest - see picture.
This way the entrances are *both asymmetric and looking at the same side*.
This way I stand on the other side when I am working bees.
The red dots - extra upper entrances I still mean to drill but holding out yet, until I get a better idea how it works on my junky temp hives.









The blue entrance on the picture - main; bees works through it; brood nest is there.
The white entrance on the picture - secondary; bees only use it for ventilation. 
They never fly from/to there.

How so you may ask?
Well, because I only fully unplugged the white door in July when it became hot here.
It was fully plugged until sometimes in June when first became hot; then partially unplugged; now fully unplugged.
Basically the entire hive knows the blue door as the main door.
The nest is asymmetric and located behind the blue door because the brood will always be close to the entrance.
And so you have it - brood section is mostly separate from the honey section.

Whatever is behind the white door - honey only and space for bees to hang out. 

It is storage too - the white door side! 
I just today pulled the follower board because I want them to start dumping honey there.
Until today, I was storing honey frames for my nucs there - clean and safe. 
Bees guard the honey frames really well from any pests.

Yesterday I completed my final splits and gave them honey frames from the main chest.
The main chest is now refilled by empty and partial frames for new crop (behind the white door, again). 

Starting today, I am not even going to open the darn thing for a couple of month (extra bees/extra brood are gone to splits to worry of swarming and such).
This 20 deep frame rig will be my main honey hive for the season if the plans pans out.
The rest is a bunch of splits.
Let them just load up the darn thing and see what they can do for me.


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## Claytone (Jul 8, 2018)

Sorry that I was unclear...Yes: asymmetric with vent holes above...
Looking at your front entrances, perhaps only one entrance is needed though...(1 & 1/4 inch instead of 6-8 half inch?)...kind of simulating a knot hole in a downed log. The last time I checked on my feral bees in the wilderness though, they seemed to prefer a vertical "slit" instead of a knothole in hollow trees...I will double check when the weather & TICKS are more benign...lol...
I think I remember where they all are...
19 layens frames enroute but will have to order more later...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Claytone said:


> Sorry that I was unclear...Yes: asymmetric with vent holes above...
> Looking at your front entrances, perhaps only one entrance is needed though...(1 & 1/4 inch instead of 6-8 half inch?)...kind of simulating a knot hole in a downed log. The last time I checked on my feral bees in the wilderness though, they seemed to prefer a vertical "slit" instead of a knothole in hollow trees...I will double check when the weather & TICKS are more benign...lol...
> I think I remember where they all are...
> 19 layens frames enroute but will have to order more later...


IF I do drill my mother rig, this will only be 1/2" holes. 
Exactly as marked.
But as I observe this rig so far, unsure if this is needed even.
The primary/secondary entrances work well already.

One important reason for the upper holes in my temp hives - those I put onto remote yards.
So, I do have animals there and need options using upper holes then.
This mother rig is my backyard base only - no animals.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

With this particular frame design (two cross bars) foundation-less comb are likely to turn out really nice.
Best to have a fresh swarm to build them (almost no drone combs).








Also few pics where I recycle variety of comb cuts back into the hives.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Have a fresh split in 16-framer so about a half-hive is empty.
Just took a pic as was refreshing the crush-and-strain byproduct in the tray (they are cleaning the stuff nice and dry for me).

I use the empty half for comb storage (bees are watching after it) and as a secure feedlot for the bees.
All thanks to the 2 inch under frame space and a passable follower board.
Works great.


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## Claytone (Jul 8, 2018)

Those girls love "beeing" your cleanup crew!!! LOL... 
A minimum of 2 inchs under frame space sounds great, is there a maximum that you would recommend?
My layens frames should arrive today, so I will have a better "feel" for my first build!!!
:applause:
( I am still trying to decide on a top...telescoping? hinged? Maybe just metal with a brick...)
If I am not too careful I will build them a Beverly Hillbilly Mansion complete with a "cement pond"...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Claytone said:


> Those girls love "beeing" your cleanup crew!!! LOL...
> A minimum of 2 inchs under frame space sounds great, is there a maximum that you would recommend?
> My layens frames should arrive today, so I will have a better "feel" for my first build!!!
> :applause:
> ...


I just try for 2 inch space and will err on the larger side (not smaller). 
It is always better to have just a hair more space under frames than a "not enough just a hair". 
Don't particularly care of exact measurements either - this is a horizontal hive; not a vertical stack where tolerances are important.
Don't worry of any burr combs down there - those are issues created by shallow Lang boxes/frames with no under-frame air buffer.

Tops - mine are telescoping for now. 
I can easily convert them into hinged IF really want but I don't for now.
Main reason against hinged (for me) - I am a mobile keeper and need to be able to move any hive anywhere anytime.
This means a hinged top can be a liability sometimes as it requires a space to swing up.
Just as we speak, one of my hives is sitting directly under an apple tree and no space to swing up.
I just pick up a cover and slide it out. Naturally, the covers must be comfortably light to telescope.

Another reason for the telescoping covers - those are my mobile work tables. 
For example, I can drop it down anywhere in field and work a comb cut-out directly on a cover.
Or I can flip the cover the other way and throw stuff into it.
So this "work table" feature is great for a mobile keeper when need to improvise.

IF have a comfortable permanent yard (a spacious backyard, for example) - consider hinged. 
I would do hinges if had a huge backyard (unfortunately, I don't).

Cleanup crew - for sure.
All winter long I was crushing/straining honey from the dead outs.
So I got bags and bags of crushed and sticky wax just sitting there.
Now I go through them and gradually have the splits clean this wax. 
Having a smallish split in a large hive makes a cleanup to be stupid easy project (win-win for me and the bees).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is an interesting video (non-English) about traditional old beekeeping.
Jump to minute 2:30.
Watch - those are real storage chests (from abandoned houses) re purposed into hives. 
The keeper says he has about 20 of those. 
Reuse/reduce/recycle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGRkmd0fx3M


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## aiannar974 (Mar 29, 2017)

I have a couple of of questions about using med or deeps in a 90 deg position put together:

1. How do you extract the honey. The angle of the drawn comb will also be shifted 90 deg and when put in an extractor will it still come out wothout damaging the comb?
2. When the 2 frames are put together is the original top of the frame now in the center of the new frame or along the edges? Also, does this leave enough space between "frame sets" for the bees to move easily or do they need to go around the frames?

Thank you,

Anthony


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

aiannar974 said:


> I have a couple of of questions about using med or deeps in a 90 deg position put together:
> 
> 1. How do you extract the honey. The angle of the drawn comb will also be shifted 90 deg and when put in an extractor will it still come out wothout damaging the comb?
> 2. When the 2 frames are put together is the original top of the frame now in the center of the new frame or along the edges? Also, does this leave enough space between "frame sets" for the bees to move easily or do they need to go around the frames?
> ...


I totally missed these questions for more than a year. Sorry!

1. For conventional extraction I use standard supers with Lang frames in them - a single super fits under my long hive roof. 
I also now have several 14-frame long hives which take standard Lang 10-frame supers above - my hybrid hives (a different subject) - typical honey super management.
Also, you can dis-assemble a tied-pair easily and extract normally.
The comb shifts are a non-issue. Does not matter.
Also, anymore I just insert un-altered Lang medium frames and have them standing (NOT hanging) - the bees don't require the frames to be standing, never did.
It works just the same. 
Put them in - bees work them - pull them out.
Like so:








2. The original top of the frame becomes now the edge (after I tried it both ways). 
The thicker wood is best on the edge - so not to create a massive comb separator right in the nest center.
Since I am foundation-less, the bees are free to perforate/create passages as they wish. 
They do. 
They are not forced to go around the wooden/plastic edges - a non-sense, really.
I really like this pictured example - how they patched back a comb after I got some honey out of it for C&S - shows well how going around the frame edges is a non-existent issue.


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## madhu (Feb 2, 2021)

GregV said:


> I also now have several 14-frame long hives which take standard Lang 10-frame supers above - my hybrid hives (a different subject) - typical honey super management.
> Also, you can dis-assemble a tied-pair easily and extract normally.


Greg, I deeply appreciate you sharing your insights and I LOVED this thread thus far. Its gotta be my favorite hive thread yet. 

Basically, I am a decent woodworker and I want to make boxes like yours that can handle the double connected lang mediums frames. I like layens hives the most but I've been wondering what the best depth is when it comes to horizontal hives. I'm in zone 7b cold wet winters though and I appreciate the depth of the deepest horizontal style hives . I love the deep hearty frames for horizontal. It makes perfect sense you chose to make something compatible with Lang frames, and can even super on top. I think brilliant...

Do you have any designs drawn up or would you be willing to share your internal measurements for your boxes? Or perhaps you can link me somewhere? I really like the photos you shared of that white hive box on the back of your vehicle. That was a nice style. If I can get an idea for your margins and beespace you are using I would like to emulate it with your permission.

Also, Id like to make a swarm boxes as you've done that are compatible.

I really appreciated your points about situating frames in any direction, and also the asymmetrical entrance info. This is great info thank you so kindly.

Al


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

madhu said:


> Do you have any designs drawn up or would you be willing to share your *internal measurements for your boxes*? Or perhaps you can link me somewhere? I really like the photos you shared of that white hive box on the back of your vehicle. That was a nice style. If I can get an idea for your margins and beespace you are using I would like to emulate it with your permission.


OK, the internal measurements are driven by the frame.
The attached picture shows the base frame - standard Lang medium x 2.
So basically just build your long hives to accommodate this frame.
Internal width of the box is (6.25 x 2)(frame) + (0.5 x 2)(space) = 13.5 inches.
Internal depth of the box is 17.75 (frame) + ~2(under-frame space) = 19-20 inches

Internal length of the box is whatever you want:

nucs/traps - 9 inches - 6-7 frames
big nucs/traps - whatever inches - 10 frames
hybrid hives - ..... - 12 frames
medium long hives - 24 inches (just because) - 16-18 frames
large long hive - 30 inches - 20-22 frames


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## madhu (Feb 2, 2021)

Deeply appreciated. I really like most horizontal deep hive (HDH) styles. I particularly like yours because I know it will "bee" easy for me to find abandoned Lang equipment and or discount or for sale and thus the practicality of your design. Plus I like how you do the 14 frame with the lang super on top. Are you still doing that as your best practice? have you changed it some since you seem to have been developing this for quite some time and in your build list didn't mention the 14 frame box again. I think its smart. Would you have a name for your box Greg? being that its a "Lang frame compatible HDH" - seems like it could use a name.??

GregV i'm gonna go for it and i'll attempt to get some pics when I come back to the thread. Thanks and I'll be following.

Al


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

madhu said:


> Deeply appreciated. I really like most horizontal deep hive (HDH) styles. I particularly like yours because I know it will "bee" easy for me to find abandoned Lang equipment and or discount or for sale and thus the practicality of your design. Plus I like how you do the 14 frame with the lang super on top. Are you still doing that as your best practice? have you changed it some since you seem to have been developing this for quite some time and in your build list didn't mention the 14 frame box again. I think its smart. Would you have a name for your box Greg? being that its a "Lang frame compatible HDH" - seems like it could use a name.??
> 
> GregV i'm gonna go for it and i'll attempt to get some pics when I come back to the thread. Thanks and I'll be following.
> 
> Al


I have been calling these modified Layens.
All of them - from 6 frame to 20+ frame, they are all modified Layens, don't matter how many frames.

These 12-14 hybrids work well and I use them.
I got 5 of these in field - like this one pictured next to the nucs.
I just attached three Lang 10-frame boxes to make the main uni-body.
Anything on the top are free boxes for additional frames or utility usage.

I also super up the actual long hive just like the pictured 16-framer.
It also works just as well.


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## madhu (Feb 2, 2021)

I noticed the original old hive building drawing sketch you posted at the top of the thread says Ukrainian on the file. Is that box the Ukranian style HDH? I know Layens is French but I haven't read the book I don't know the total origin . Obviously goes back to ancient vedic Russia vedrus at some point or something. I guess its not that important but for the sake of learning I actually was directed towards Ukranian HDHs and I really don't know much if anything about that specific cultural HDH. Though I love them all. -Al


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## madhu (Feb 2, 2021)

Also, I just wanted to throw in the mix Matt Somerville's new 2020 golden hive.
The Golden Hive – Bee Kind Hives 

I like elements of his especially I do like the aesthetics and some of the functions. How does a modified layens hive (with compatible lang frames medium sideways) compare with the golden hive. ? They seem close to me but for the sake of discussion I'd like to compare. I admit I do like the Warre quilt style on the golden hive.

To me your modified layens and this golden hive are the cream of the crop. 

Al


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

madhu said:


> I noticed the original old hive building drawing sketch you posted at the top of the thread says Ukrainian on the file. Is that box the Ukranian style HDH?


Yes.
People in East Euro don't know of the Layens.
They have plenty of their own makes.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

madhu said:


> Also, I just wanted to throw in the mix Matt Somerville's new 2020 golden hive.
> The Golden Hive – Bee Kind Hives
> 
> I like elements of his especially I do like the aesthetics and some of the functions. How does a modified layens hive (with compatible lang frames medium sideways) compare with the golden hive. ? They seem close to me but for the sake of discussion I'd like to compare. I admit I do like the Warre quilt style on the golden hive.
> ...


The Golden Hive is a good looking marketing trick meant to be sold for big $$$, nothing more.
It sells a suggestive context in it along the line of:

the frames conform to the mathematical Golden Rule (thus supposedly inheriting some magic natural properties).
it has all kinds of "natural" features built-in (quilt and all)
the bees are supposed to live in this hive in more natural fashion and in some mysterious ways will survive the mites and other stressors.

The Golden Hive is a fancy product of high wood working quality - no doubt.
But it is no better of something compatible hammered together from regular 2x4s without thinking too much of the Golden Rule conformity.
But you, of course, may build one and show your wood working skills too - nothing wrong with that.


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## madhu (Feb 2, 2021)

I can appreciate a straight forward opinion. I'm just a bit more encouraging about anyone keeping bees because at this point saving the bees is pretty much literally life and death on earth in many ways. People will literally have more food and more clean air, if more bees are around. : D not that theres not other important work to be done. But in a holistic consideration, we need bees man !


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

madhu said:


> I can appreciate a straight forward opinion


You bet.

Speaking of the "saving bees", I will not get into this complicated subject.
Enough said as is.
The long hive approach as for me is rather about human operator ergonomics.
So that is where it stands.
Be sure to post some pics when you build something!


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## madhu (Feb 2, 2021)

GregV said:


> OK, the internal measurements are driven by the frame.
> The attached picture shows the base frame - standard Lang medium x 2.
> So basically just build your long hives to accommodate this frame.
> Internal width of the box is (6.25 x 2)(frame) + (0.5 x 2)(space) = 13.5 inches.
> ...


Greg, are your top bars of your frames touching? like layens? or double bee space?

Noted lang frame thickness are 1.375" , layens thickness 1.5", and I saw you are shaving down to 1.25". Whats the best? 

Any advice on best style top bars for these modified layens frames? Either I would go with Dr leo's type of strip of wood abruptly hanging down, or the classic pointed cut? What are your thoughts? Thanks again I'm just drawing this up what I'm about to put together.

Also, do you utilize follower boards. insulated or non? thanks for your advices sir.

Al


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

madhu said:


> Greg, are your top bars of your frames touching? like layens? or double bee space?
> 
> Noted lang frame thickness are 1.375" , layens thickness 1.5", and I saw you are shaving down to 1.25". Whats the best?
> 
> ...


The top bars not touching - not anymore (been there, done that).
Not recommending it.
You want your top bars pass-through (see Standard Lang model).
Just use soft covering to cover the frames (fabric, plastic, whatever).

I started 1.5" - not recommending it (been there, done that).
1)Bees will try to double-comb.
2)Overtime the spacing will even increase due to propolis build-up
1.375" is OK - just reuse the Lang frames and call it done and is probably the best compromise.
1.25" is OK - (I hated shaving down my 1.5" frames though) - sometimes, bees will leave 1..25" frame empty and extend a neighboring honey comb into that space - to be aware.
From scratch, I'd build 1.25" and call it a day (they will space a tad wider anyway, especially over time).

I would not bother with Hoffman style frames (unless have a good and fast jig).
I would not bother with Dr. Leo either.
Just cut them straight and staple extra wood spacers to the side as needed.

Follower boards - insulated sandwiches are best.
But I also have many from simple repurposed plywood (kitchen cabinets by the road side) - faster to make and better than nothing.


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