# Behavior around swarm traps



## Rick 1456

I put a trap in an area where I had seen bee activity before. Single used deep with three well used frames of comb. Today, I saw a lot of bees coming in and entering the box. Not regular hive activity, but either investigative, or local bees harvesting some tidbits. No honey in the frames. Can you differentiate between the two behaviors? What would I look for if there is an observable difference? Seems like the bees are checking things out but might just be trying to locate the "goodies".
Thoughts
Thanks


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## robherc

You could watch how they take off...if they're arriving "light" with no pollen on their legs, and leaving "heavy" or laden with pollen, they're thieves...otherwise there's a decent chance they're scouts.

OR...you could wait a couple three days, check on 'em again & if you see normal hive activity, they were scouts...lol


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## Rick 1456

LOL gotcha, I don't think there is anything in the combs though. Didn't see them with pollen baskets laden with anything. Fingers crossed Three days??


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## Keth Comollo

If they are bringing in stores then they may have a queen. When you see a swarm trap with a colony that has moved in the activity is quite busy. You will learn to differentiate between a colony and just scouts soon enough!


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## enchplant

You can put your ear up to the side of the box and if you hear one or two lonely bees buzzing in there they are scouts. If there is a low hum there are thousands of bees in there and that have moved in!


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## odfrank

Scouts fly around in circles and go in and out the entrance. Some are checking the cracks between box and lid. Wrestling and fighting is a good sign. Killing each other is an even better sign.Lots of bees camping out overnight is a good sign. Scouting can go on for weeks before a swarm arrives. I have seen all of these signs and still had a swarm fail to appear.Once they are established the flight is straight in and out. Pollen entering means the queen is laying.


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## Rick 1456

Odfrank,
Sounds like they scouting vs stealing. Interesting, I noticed the wrestling and fighting. Any thoughts on what that's about? Maybe they are arguing over what color the new curtains will be LOL  Would a second box nearby increase chances? I'll put a second one up anyway for any after swarms. This and raising Queens are hands down two of the most fascinating/fun things in beekeeping. 
The bees in the swarm I got last year,(different location) were all the same color and markings. The bees scouting this box are mixed. Their are dark bees with these. I guess that means they were somebodies bees at one time. Could we still call the survivors? I guess there is no real way to know.
Thanks


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## robherc

Dark bees, often, are feral survivors, as they really haven't been imported in any significant numbers for over a hundred years. That said, I've been informed that Russel Apiaries sells them now.
Anywise, my guess about the fighting thing is that bees from @ least 2 different "mother hives" are scouting it & arguing over who gets to swarm into that location...so the other box might be a grand idea


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## enchplant

I noticed activity really ramps up on a warm still day with bees buzzing around all the cracks and seams on the trap. I think when the lemongrass oil heats up they go bonkers!


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## Rick 1456

I watched the trap for a while this morning. Lots of activity. I had to leave at noon. There was 20 some bees around, in and out most of the time. This box is on top of a building in the woods at a park where I work part time. My daughter and her friend were at the playground with the friends' daughter. My daughter calls me about three oclock and tells me a swarm of bees came out of a bush by the playground, flew over and headed into the woods. I coaxed her into going and looking at the box. She said there were bees around but the box but the swarm was flying around in the trees. Hard to say but I'm hopeful. I'll find out tomorrow. 
I put a second box about 75 feet away from the other. The bees were checking it out within the hour. Amazing


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## Rick 1456

Bow wow wow yipee yo, yipee yea!!!! Bees went in Checked today. Behavior much different. Bees going and coming like a "regular" hive. Guards at the entrance. Incoming are heavy. No pollen but might be a couple of days before the queen gets going depending on mother or daughter. It was light rain as well this a.m. Swap them into a regular hive tomorrow maybe to free up my swarm box and reset it. Might be some after swarms Wish I could find out where they came from. Couldn't be too far. They clustered on a tree nearby. This is like fishing for a big fish and catching one. Actually, it is better


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## robherc

Not so sure I'd recommend moving them so soon...especially if you're planning to put the "regular hive" anywhere within about 3 miles of where you caught them. It would probably be best to leave them in there long enough to get a little open brood going, that way the open brood will help "anchor" them in their new home when you move 'em.

Aside from that, CONGRATULATIONS on your first catch! :banana:
(now's the time to start building about 50 more traps, right?)


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## Rick 1456

You are correct and good advice. I wasn't going to move them. Just transfer them. It s a nice swarm trap. Plus, I'm moving to foundation less. So I want to get them comb drawing fools busy. Might take a frame of brood with me too. 
I have a couple others out and about I love it. 
Thanks


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## Rick 1456

My co- worker shot this and posted it on you tube. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WI-k9B4sec&feature=plcp


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## odfrank

>Plus, I'm moving to foundation less

Moving bait swarms with fresh foundationless combs is a recipe for collapse.


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## robherc

You _can_ move hives with fresh, foundationless combs (I've done it myself, actually), but odfrank's right overall... The new foundationless combs are VERY pliable, and I do sometimes have 1-2 that get damaged, even when being "very careful" with them (the road always seems bumpier when you have a hive full of newly drawn foundationless comb in the back), so be sure to make an informed decision & check the amount of attachment your combs have before transporting any hive.


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## Rick 1456

I thank you for derailing a potential train wreck. My set up is this: I use deep frames with a guide/starter piece, usually a wood strip like Popsicle sticks, with four lines of fishing line. I am going to give that to them on Monday and transfer them to my hive set ups. any wax comb into frames for them affix. I do plan to leave the the hive there for a while and I understand I did not indicate that. Probably a good thing so the lesson was learned from others

I do thank you all.
Rick


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## Rick 1456

My co worker shot this with his iphone. This swarm moved into this box 6 days ago. I needed to transfer it. It went a lot better than I thought it would. Hope you found it worth watching. 
BTW, this was on top of a shipping container box. We were about 10 feet off the ground. Working with out a nethttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A72bbtUl7F0&feature=channel&list=UL


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

May I make a suggestion... In your swarm traps if you place the comb against one wall, and put one or two frames of foundation, (even if it is multiple year old foundation) and I always put two, I don't have them dropping comb in the swarm boxes. They rarely move beyond the foundation to draw comb. Try it.

cchoganjr


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## robherc

I keep my swarm boxes full of top bars, then all combs get dropped nicely on the bars, since you're wanting to go foundationless, you can use your foundationless frames in place of my top bars to accomplish the same effect. ... that way the bees move in, and simply turn it into a hive full of nicely drawn combs for you...easy as pie to transfer too


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## Northwest PA Beekeeper

I just noticed yesterday bees checking out my swarm trap. There were about 10 bees flying in and out, flying around the sides and checking out the gaps.

I decided to put up another trap just in case my one hive is planning on swarming - that way there will be two choices for them - and hopefully one of my traps is better suited than anywhere else! Currently, the only thing in them is frames with undrawn foundation and some lemon grass oil.

Congratulations on your trap working. (And yeah, as others said, put in frames so they can make their comb on the frames.


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## Rick 1456

I understand and appreciate the suggestions. 
Just MHO, but this is a lure, not a guarantee. I'm not putting these things anywhere near known hives. I'm not intersted in some body elses bees. Looking for feral stock. No guarantee there either but primitive areas, more or less, are the locations. Having said that, it would take a lot of resources to fully equip a lot of traps fully with frames of any sort. I'm thinking too, what about theft? If I have to cut and mount some comb, I'm good with that. 
Pa beek,,,,,just my experince has been traps close to my hives do not capture swarms from my hives. You need to put them on someone elses property several hundred yards (at least) away. Good luck


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Rick 1456 In my experience, you don't have to fully equip your bait hives with frames. I use two drawn brood combs, and two starter foundation. Start by putting the two brood combs against one wall, then the two foundation. Leave the center open. Rarely have they gone beyond the two foundation frames to drop comb of their own, because this would split the colony.

Why not put your hives where they may be productive, feral or someone else's bees. When you catch a swarm you don't know for sure if it is a feral hive or came from another's hives. Either way, you have a new colony. And the bees can be moved and the bait hive set up again very quickly.

I feel it is a good idea to have swarm boxes near your own hives, and quite often bees will go into them. From 3 feet to 100 yards will get you swarms. What we may not know for sure is, where they came from. It is known that swarming bees are attracted to areas where there are other bees. So, that swarm might not be yours, but came to your bees and settled into a box very near your bee yard. Might be feral, might not.

At least in my area, swarm box theft has never been a problem. I did have one episode of 3 hives being stolen from a bee yard in 1998. But never one of my swarm boxes. Of course, I only use old 10 frame deeps, ready to be thrown away, for swarm boxes, and perhaps no one would want them. But, they work.

cchoganjr


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## Rick 1456

I think the putting of the comb to the sides with starter in between is the way to go from now on. Makes sense. Wish it had come to me in one of my bee dreams doh  
I had five boxes set up at my hive yard last year. Two swarms. One I actually was able to follow and watched it go into hollow branch of a very large oak about 500 yards down the road. The cluster was too high for me to retrieve. So, it didn't work for me. But your advise having them around is well taken and I do have an old box set up hoping to catch a swarm from that swarm Most of the few boxes I have set up are old 10 framers but they are the best for luring them in and don't want to loose them. I have a couple that I put together from wooden wine boxes. Certain ones will hold frames if you scab a ledge for them to rest on. Haven't caught any in one of those yet. Still early though. Someone will probably steal those thinking there is wine in them. Hummm, may have paint them camouflage  
Anyway, it is all good. Thanks and happy hunting!


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## Rick 1456

My camera man re did the you tube video and here is the new link for those intersted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd8WOhMwqy4
There is an advertisement there that I know nothing about. My camera man does not put ads on his site so I don't know where it came from. We are not "luring " you in.


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## Keth Comollo

Nice video! Fun to watch!

After you had the queen I personally would have just shaken the rest of the bees into the hive so I could work the comb easier. And rubber bands are so much easier!!

Congrats on the swarm!


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## Rick 1456

I thought of doing it that way. My reasoning for not, was they were calm. I figured the air would bee full of angry bees had I shaken them . Obviously, 20/20 it would have worked either way. I had the cotton string, not rubber bands. I think the RBs would be easier. 
Thanks for watching


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## robherc

I hate rubber bands for splicing comb...if the string works, stick with it...I ended up having to throw out a good bit of comb because the bees chewed off too many of the rubber bands before they got the comb glued into the frame. ...just my experience, but it was quite a mess!
On a similar note, I just picked up some hardware cloth yesterday...think I'll be making a few frames with the hardware cloth attached permanently on one side, then just tacked on at the bottom of the other side. Then when I want to splice in some comb, I can just open, insert comb, then tie the open side shut, or put a couple staples into the top corners...only drawback is it'll be impossible to remove the HW cloth without destroying the comb later, so those combs won't be able to be transferred into my sloped-side TBH hives (unless I spend about 5x as much time building the "keystone" frames, instead of the quicker, square ones)...if you're using all Lang. equipt, I don't see that as really being much of an issue though.


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## Rick 1456

Robherc,
Apprceiate the comment on the string. I hadn't thought the RBs would be an issue but I can see why the bees might want that "rubber stuff" out quick. The string I used is a heavy cotton. I'll stick with the string, and the heavier stuff instead of kite string just for the reason you gave, it will last a little longer. I use 20lb test fishing line through the frames. I want to be able to cut Q cells or egg strips for queen rearing down the road. 
Thanks


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

I use Parcel Post wrapping twine. After they attach the comb, they will chew and remove the string. When they are finished, most of the comb is nice looking. If it winds up bad, I rotate it out later.

cchoganjr


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## Rick 1456

The parcel post twine, is that a synthetic ? Nylon strands? Just curious.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

No, it is a cotton string. Very strong, very small. I used it in manufacturing rigged fishing worms for years, then started using it for wrapping brood comb. I start one nail on the inside of the top bar, wrap the brood about every four inches across to the other side, go around the top bar and end bar, then come back, splitting the middle, across to the nail and tie off. This string is available at WalMart, is not expensive.

cchoganjr


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## Rick 1456

I'll check it out,,,,thanks


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Rick 1456... I found a spool of the twine that still had the data on it. It says:

BEACON EXTRA STRENGTH PARCEL POST TWINE 8 ply 300ft. (100) yards, and the price......Are you ready for this???.. A whopping 69 cents plus tax is printed on the data wrapper, but the sales sticker says, 43 cents. It also says, Distributed by. Schermerhorn Brothers Company, Los Angeles Calif 90023 ART 41849

I sold the lure company in 1985, so the twine is at least 27 years old. I googled Schermerhorn Brothers Company and they are still in business. I did not search to see if they still distribute the parcel post twine.

cchoganjr


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## Rick 1456

Checked them and added brood frame.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeE5PaHROQk&feature=youtu.be


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## Keth Comollo

Great video. Well on your way to having a real strong hive there. And safe from bears on top of that container!


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## Rick 1456

You now what,,,,,,those containers may just be the cats meow They are huge. Bee hives on top, create access from below, storage inside, no mowing issues, man cave, and I don't think they are that expensive. 
A small apartment for times when home life is,,,,,,,,,,,,,troubled
Thanks


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## Rick 1456

Week five of my swarm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnU0dvAro8Y


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## robherc

Wow, really highlights the differences between my AHB swarms and "normal" feral bees. First, I was shocked when your lifting the cover wasn't greeted by a loud hiss from the exasperated bees, then by the near total lack of bees on the top bars/lid (mine are almost always packed in there SOLID...not sure why). With my hives, by time you started smoking those bars, you likely would've had nearly 100 stingers already lodged in your gloves, and every time I move a bar/frame my gloves get COVERED in stinging bees, lol (makes me glad I have new, NON-AHB queens ordered lol....). Also, my AHB swarms each filled 16-17 bars (equivalent to 21-24 deep Lang. frames) in their first 5 weeks, fairly regardless of swarm size.

I'm quite jealous of your ability to work your hive so easily, but at the same time, like having the faster build-up...interesting differences. Overall, your inspection looked like it went quite well to me, now let's see how quickly they fill that second box


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## odfrank

At some point you will regret not having an inner cover.


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## Rick 1456

Put one on when I put the second deep on


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

odfrank...You have been my hero, and now you are advocating inner covers????? WHY??? 

cchoganjr


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## odfrank

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> odfrank...You have been my hero, and now you are advocating inner covers????? WHY???cchoganjr


I noticed he had to pry pretty hard to get the TC open. In my local we have a year round flow and hundreds of different types of trees to produce propolis. Covers are combed down, braced down, burred down and propolized down. Even migratory covers require some firm prying to get them open. A telescoping cover with no inner cover in my neck of the woods would be a fool's game. This is a typical brood chamber at my main site, and notice those frames are not old:


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## Rick 1456

If you look at the video again, you can see the beginnings of exactly what OF is talking about. Bees are going to "seal" things up. I have some hives that glue the inner cover down pretty good. I know some beeks don't use them. I may not for a time, but once the population grows, I normally get one on there.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

odfrank...Rick 1456.....PLEASE don't take this as a criticism, but if you are getting frames glued to the inner cover or migratory cover, (other than the seal around the box edge), then there is improper bee space. (Maybe old or ill fitting equipment??? I never use an inner cover, and rarely have glueing except at the edge. I often use a telescoping cover, (perhaps 75 -100 right now) but no inner cover, and by starting at the side, and proper angle on the hive tool, the top comes right off.

Perhaps locale accounts for this, and the amount of propolis available in this area is not as intense as in yours.

I was just asking. odfrank, you are still my hero. Anyone who catches that many swarms each year is doing something right. You catch more swarms each year than there are colonies of bees, (with the exception of mine) in this entire area. I have out about 35 swarm traps, caught 7 so far. Our feral bees were just about wiped out back in the late 1990's, they are making a come back now.

cchoganjr


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## Rick 1456

No problem,,,,,I make my own stuff so your observations are most likely correct. My thoughts are the dimensions given to build your own stuff incorporates an inner cover in the mix. Leave that off and the glueing begins. An inner cover creates additional bee space so the edges are what are sealed making entry less of a hassle. Just my thoughts.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Rick 1456. You are correct. Unfortunately all companies do not use the same bee space procedure. Some make top, some make bottom. If beekeepers interchange these boxes, covers, and inner covers, they can get a lot of glue, burr comb, etc.

I make all my equipment, plus what I sell, and mine are made for a flat top, migratory top, or inner cover that is all flat bottom. If the underside of the inner cover is indented, ( as most used to be years ago) they tend to glue it together, because of the additional space between the top bars and the recessed bottom of the inner cover..

My biggest complaint with inner covers is small hive bettles.

cchoganjr


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## odfrank

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> if you are getting frames glued to the inner cover or migratory cover, (other than the seal around the box edge), then there is improper bee space.


My bees don't care about bee space. 1/8", 1/4", 5/32", 3/8'...fill that gap with some wax and quit hiding and goofing off on top of the inner cover. Put some comb up there also.


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## odfrank

And pray tell what size bee space from topbar to lid will not get combed down???


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## Barry

Whatever space mine have. I've never had one combed down. 5/16"? Must be a western bee thing.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Maybe it is a Kentucky thing, mine don't get glued down. Tops come off clean.

I really do believe bees care about bee space, if not, boxes / frames, would be made any size, any length, any height, just add bees.

But, I don't use inner cover.

cchoganjr


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## robherc

I use modified TBH with Lang. compatible bars (i.e. bee space between and above the bars)...bee space of 3/8" until the ply warps...have had 0 comb built above the bars, but PLENTY of propolis sealing the lids down


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## Rick 1456

Bee race seems to have a role in propoplis amounts. Mine are pretty much Mutts at this point but I see big differences propolis amounts between the ones I have. The swarm in the video was responding, to a certain extent, to some ants that were taking up residence on the top of the frames. Put a circle of cinnamon around the hive. Repels the ants for a while at least.


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## Rick 1456

For those of you that are following the saga of, "Gertrude and the Girls" here is week seven. Thanks for looking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmzo9j0oOlA&feature=plcp


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## minz

Well you did better than me! I have 6 traps out this year and when I did my weekly check I seen bees coming and going (like in your first video) and ran it home and had nothing. Same as last year, patience is not my tool kit. I put the trap back up the next Monday and have not gone back for fear of “setting the hook” premature. It all sounds so easy on the forum but it does not seem to work as I want it to. Just like watching the fishing video and then going out and expecting to get so many I can do the “upgrade” for the larger limit.


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## Rick 1456

It is the difference between being in a "target rich" environment and not It makes the "one" you get all the more special That's why it is called "fishing" instead of "catching", and "trapping" instead of "getting". LOL Hang in there.


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## minz

Just went and checked the one that I put back up. I am seeing about 1 bee per second (BPS) going in and only 1 per minute leaving. No orientation flights, they are in a straight line down through the pine boughs. It is too brush heavy to see if their baskets are loaded. Figure I will leave them bee and pull it on this upcoming weekend. I don’t think I have enough deep frames made for them anyway. Besides the blackberries are in full bloom down here and just starting at home. Funny how 500’ elevation difference can set the bloom back by a week or two.


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