# craigslist post



## bevy's honeybees

Wondering what others think of this CL post. There is no option to contact poster.

FREE BEE REMOVALS (LEE COUNTY)

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Date: 2012-08-01, 8:01AM EDT
Reply to: see below [Errors when replying to ads?] 
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So you want a free bee removal?

Getting a free bee removal from a good beekeeper is next to impossible!

A good beekeeper does not need bees. A good beekeeper can make bees for free!

Think about it this way. . . It's like trying to sell a puppy to a dog breeder.

Only inexperienced beekeepers look for free bees!

As a homeowner you may be held responsible for any damage or injury these 
inexperienced beekeepers cause to others while removing the bees.

Hire any professional bee removal company you choose. . . but absolutely leave the neophytes alone. 


•Location: LEE COUNTY
•it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests


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## dixiebooks

I like the sentiment of it. -js


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## Mbeck

He may be right..... Very few things are really free, you often get what you pay for.

Sure there are exceptions it just never works out for me that way


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## StewRoten

Someone needs to lighten up. Maybe free removals are how neophytes get to be pros. Oh, and puppy breeders do occasionally need to buy new stock. I like my bees wherever I can get them.


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## Haddon

I love it 

Might ask the guy if I can re post it in my area.


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## Haddon

well seeing that I cant reply to the add I might just steal it.


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## Mr.Beeman

Sounds like a overzealous commercial beekeeper with a chip on his/her shoulder.


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## Lburou

Sounds like a 'free' removal service is kicking his tutu, and he doesn' like it. 

Nothing is ever free.


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## VolunteerK9

I just talked to someone that had a removal done. The guy traveled for an hour and a half, did the removal and then paid the homeowner for the bees. They then asked how much I would have paid for the bees.


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## bevy's honeybees

Mr.Beeman said:


> Sounds like a overzealous commercial beekeeper with a chip on his/her shoulder.


That's what I thought too. I didn't like being called a "neophyte" nor do I think I am one. I would charge if Florida allowed it (no licence). 

And he doesn't mention that most "professional" removal is almost always done with insecitcide, then swept up and thrown away. I do it because I like to and it saves bees. Requeen as necessary.


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## TokerM

Counter with your own c/l ad that refutes that one:

"Are you tired of being charged extra for someone to spray your house full of cancer-causing chemicals?

Don't pay a "professional" to just kill the bees and walk away, leaving a big mess of sticky honey and wax in your walls for YOU to deal with."

And other "it could happen to you" statements.


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## shannonswyatt

Yes, as we all know, the more you pay for something the better the quality. If there was an add just above/below for someone that would do it for free, my guess is the free one would get more calls.

A new beek may be a general contractor, I dare say such a person would be exceptionally well suited to doing the job. Or it could be someone getting back into the game and is trying to keep their procurement costs down. My cousin was doing it free to avoid divorce. He has more time than money and he needed more hives, but he said that he is going to start charging now. But he had the skills and the equipment to do the work so it has been a good thing for him, and he learned a lot from the experience. 

My guess is that people that will do it for free will only do it for so long. 

Everyone of us is probably guilty of taking money out of someone elses assumed pocket. I'm sure that I royally upset some tree service when after the dericho(sp?) I removed the downed tree from the 80 year old neighbor yard across the way. No doubt it would have been several hundreds of dollars for what cost me a couple tanks of gas and a bunch of sweat.


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## Mr.Beeman

Being a residential builder myself, it has helped tremendously in bee cut outs. I'll be the first to admit I accept swarms and do not charge within a set radius. 
Cut outs....... whole different thing alltogether. Never have been turned away for any of my fees yet.
I have two more pending.

SHHHHH don't tell my wife! lol


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## shannonswyatt

Lol!!!


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## bluegrass

The competition posted his name and number in his ad. A very nice ad. Looks ligit to me.

When I was still doing cutouts I did many for free.... If it was a commercial or rental property I charged, Private residents and not 100 miles away I did it for free. I liked gaining the genetic diversity. 

I flagged the ad this is in reference to as spam. If you can't compete, get out of the business and stop being a cry baby.


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## dixiebooks

volunteerK9: "I just talked to someone that had a removal done. The guy traveled for an hour and a half, did the removal and then paid the homeowner for the bees. They then asked how much I would have paid for the bees."

I wonder how long the "beekeeper" will continue to do business that way? -js


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## rtoney

If there is no method of contact why all the fuss?


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## dixiebooks

rtoney said:


> If there is no method of contact why all the fuss?


Because it raises a philosophical/ethical question. -js


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## shannonswyatt

I can't believe that someone would pay for cutout bees. Are you sure it wasn't a swarm? Drove 3 hours round trip for the privilege to cutout someones pest and then pay for the bees? Doesn't sound plausible to me. Just saying...


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## DLMKA

VolunteerK9 said:


> I just talked to someone that had a removal done. The guy traveled for an hour and a half, did the removal and then paid the homeowner for the bees. They then asked how much I would have paid for the bees.


I got a swarm call earlier this year, I don't mind removing swarms especially at ground level for free so I thought I would just box them up and go home. This clown tried to charge ME for the bees. I told him I'll just dump them out and go home and he decided that it wasn't worth it to him either so I still left with a swarm without opening my wallet.


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## shannonswyatt

I could see paying for a swarm, but not if I had to drive far. All bees are a crap shot, some less than others. You could take that swarm and drop it in your box and they all fly away the next day.


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## DLMKA

shannonswyatt said:


> I could see paying for a swarm, but not if I had to drive far. All bees are a crap shot, some less than others. You could take that swarm and drop it in your box and they all fly away the next day.


I wouldn't pay for a swarm. They called me because they don't want the bees and I do. Mutually beneficial agreement in my opinion.


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## shannonswyatt

A friend of my dads sells swarms every spring. This year he sold 20 at $40 a pop. He calls you when he gets one. He overwinters his hives in a single deep and in the spring they swarm. Not sure why he does that, but he does. 

I would pay for a swarm over buying package bees. They are ready to go when you hive them, where package bees need more help.


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## TokerM

This has more to do with a Florida law that was pointed out halfway through the thread: In Florida, if you DO NOT have a license for pest control, you are NOT ALLOWED to charge to remove bees. It's not a choice of "should I or shouldn't I charge?" So, if you get a call from someone to do a cut out, it's 110 degrees out, the cut is on the second story, a dearth is on and the girls are VERY angry, etc... You have to do it for free unless you paid for a license to be an exterminator.

But this isn't about if there should be a charge, this has to do with the content of an ad that a professional exterminator put up to malign beekeepers by not explaining that the law does not ALLOW for beekeepers to charge, the author is implying that free bee removal implies "neophyte." You could have been a licensed contractor for 30 years and a beekeeper for 20, but according to this schmuck, you're a neophyte. It's unethical, but ethics isn't a matter of law, hence my suggestion to post a counter-ad.


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## dixiebooks

Toker: Just wondering (and I realize you likely are not the individual who wrote the law) why a beek would need an exterminators license to remove bees alive. Exterminators KILL the pests they are after. No killing, no exterminating. Just me, but I think if I lived in FL I would happily violate that one and not lose a moment of sleep. -js


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## bluegrass

shannonswyatt said:


> I would pay for a swarm over buying package bees. They are ready to go when you hive them, where package bees need more help.


There was a multiple year study done by Uconn and Al Avitabile that showed that over 90% of Natural swarms fail to survive their first winter.


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## bhfury

bluegrass said:


> There was a multiple year study done by Uconn and Al Avitabile that showed that over 90% of Natural swarms fail to survive their first winter.


Is that swarms that are captured by people or ones that take up a natural habitat (hive) out in the wild somewhere?


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## bluegrass

bhfury said:


> Is that swarms that are captured by people or ones that take up a natural habitat (hive) out in the wild somewhere?


Hived swarms. It would be hard to collect such data on feral swarms. No way to know when they moved into a cavity in a tree or house wall.


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## Mr.Beeman

I can't see that happening. Feral (swarms) hives survive as well as flourish on their own with no human intervention whatsoever. No treatments, supplimental feeding, etc.
That number sounds too high to be realistic. I would think that a feral colony is the ultimate survivor in the bee kingdom.
All three of my hives are from swarms and they seem to do just fine. Haven't lost one yet.
At least that is my experience.


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## TokerM

dixiebooks said:


> ...why a beek would need an exterminators license to remove bees alive. Exterminators KILL the pests they are after. No killing, no exterminating. Just me, but I think if I lived in FL I would happily violate that one and not lose a moment of sleep. -js


The conspiracy theorist in me thinks that big corporate exterminator companies lobbied to have that inserted to give a boost to their bottom line.


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## bluegrass

Safety in numbers: There are an estimated 3 Million beehives in the US. If we were all astute about swarm prevention, which we aren't, and only 10 % of those hive swarmed once per year. We are looking at 300,000 swarms and only 10 % survived we are still looking at 30,000 swarms surviving their first winter; leaving 600 established colonies per state per year...

Numbers suddenly seem very realistic.


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## shannonswyatt

Probably a realistic number, but I'm surprised. What is the percentage on the packages?


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## bluegrass

I get about 85-90% survival on packages. I think the average is much closer to 60%, but inexperience accounts for some of that. 
I actually hear a very common story every year: A person bought local nucs their first year because of the better chances of survival, lost all of them over winter and buy packages from me the second year because if they are going to die anyway... they might as well buy the cheaper product.

I installed 2 locally purchased nucs this year and 6 packages. Just to give me a better perspective on the local nuc vs package debate.


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## buzz abbott

I would suggest that you post a link to the ad and asked that people flag it. It does not take too many flags to get a post deleted.
I would also post the counter post as suggested earlier. Include the language about Fl law.
I found it interesting that the ad was in the for sale/items wanted section and not the services section. You could also post your counter in the services section and site the attempt to give BK a bad name in the for sale section. Tell people of the plight of the bee, and to make sure that the 'professional' will not kill the bees.


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## shannonswyatt

I liked the way that you put 'professional' in single quotes. Getting paid to do something does not make one a professional (except in sports). Not getting paid for something does not make one an amateur. 

My guess is that someone that goes to Craigs list for someone to do something for them is not necessarily interested in the decal on the side of the truck, or the embossing on the business cards. They want two things, low cost and bees gone. Or maybe bees gone and low cost. 

You can't compete with free, but you can be there after the fail. If they are truly amateurs they are not likely to be interested in the hard cases, and that is the ones you would probably make the most on anyway.


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## jbeshearse

Imagine if you will, a person is doing a cutout in Florida, a state known to have africanized bees. Now as the cutout progresses, the bees get a bit ticked off and a few of the neighbors get stung. One happens to be severely allergic and dies. Now if the person/company doing the cutout is a licensed exterminator he will have appropriate insurance and the homeowner will be covered not only by that insurance but by the fact that the homeowner hired a licensed professional removal company. If the homeowner hired Joe Blow a local registered beekeeper without appropriate liability insurance, the homeowner may become a renter very quickly. 

Now imagine the local guy cuts through a major structural member of the house and the house comes tumbling down, no insurance....

Now imagine the local guy cuts trough an electrical wire and either burns the house down or electrocutes himself... no insurance...

Now I realize that the same things could happen if the guy were doing it for free. But the reality is that there is no language in the Florida law that would allow for someone to do the removal for free. Sometimes laws are there to protect the consumer and this law is probably based on that. 

Chapter 482, F.S., defines pest control activity as: "a) The use of any method or device or the application of any substance to prevent, destroy, repel, mitigate, curb, control, or eradicate any pest in, on or under a structure, lawn or ornamental; b) the identification of or inspection for infestations or infections in, on, or under a structure, lawn, or ornamental; c) The use of any pesticide, economic poison, or mechanical device for preventing, controlling, eradicating, identifying, inspecting for, mitigating, diminishing, or curtailing insects, vermin, rodents, pest birds, bats, or other pests in, on, or under a structure, lawn, or ornamental; and d) All phases of fumigation, including: 1, the treatment of products by vault fumigation; and 2, the fumigation of boxcars, trucks, ships, airplanes, docks, warehouses, and common carriers; and e) the advertisement of, the solicitation of, or the acceptance of remuneration for any work described in this subsection, but does not include the solicitation of a bid from a licensee to be incorporated in an overall bid by an unlicensed primary contractor to supply services to another."


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

bluegrass......If over 90% of swarms fail to survive the first winter, why would anyone even bother to put out swarm boxes, if only 10, in 100 caught, would survive. 

I can see a low mortality rate among swarms, being that the swarm queen is the old queen, but, being the old queen does not mean that she isn't still a good queen. Failing queens are normally superceded after the swarm is established. That gives them a new queen. There are thousands of afterswarms each year, and all of these have new queens. That number seems exceptionally large. You don't happen to have a link or title to those studies do you. I sure would like to read them.

cchoganjr


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## bluegrass

Cleo

Not everything is on the internet. But I am sure if you contacted Al he could get you the results of the study. I actually learned about this at an association meeting he presented the results at. I think the publication is currently housed at Yale University library with the rest of the state's apiculture collection. You may be able to email them and ask about it. 

I agree that my personal results are higher than that, but they are not better than a Package of bees which is what I was responding to.

JB: Thanks for sharing the Florida law... that is pretty extreme. Better not set mouse traps in your house without a license, or mole traps in your lawn


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## jbeshearse

bluegrass said:


> Cleo
> 
> Not everything is on the internet. But I am sure if you contacted Al he could get you the results of the study. I actually learned about this at an association meeting he presented the results at. I think the publication is currently housed at Yale University library with the rest of the state's apiculture collection. You may be able to email them and ask about it.
> 
> I agree that my personal results are higher than that, but they are not better than a Package of bees which is what I was responding to.
> 
> JB: Thanks for sharing the Florida law... that is pretty extreme. Better not set mouse traps in your house without a license, or mole traps in your lawn


There are exceptions and one is that the homeowner or renter may treat for pests themselves.


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## bluegrass

Out of curiosity I had to look up the law: http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2010/Chapter482/All
Passed in 2010 by special session. Reading it the fines are 500.00 and up to 60 days in jail. But as I read it it is applicable to unlicensed pest control companies. Also there is an exemption section that excludes agricultural operations. 
I wouldn't advertise as that is specifically defined as soliciting and requires a license. But I think there are enough exemptions that if you are doing it for free you really are not in violation.

If an inspector shows up tell them your bees took off and you are trying to catch them.

For them to go into special session to pass this there had to be a big reason for doing so... Wish I could find out what it was.


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## shannonswyatt

My guess is that if someone does something for free the Florida law wouldn't apply to them. If I mow my neighbors lawn I'm not a lawn care company, fix is sink I'm not a plumber. You can require a lot of someone when they are getting paid as that becomes a contract, but when it is free it is harder. My guess is that if there was a problem it would end up being a civil issue, not a criminal one. Not that it wouldn't suck in either case.

The absolute reality is you have a zillion laws on the books, more everyday. Most are not enforced. Not saying anyone should break any laws, you shouldn't.


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## Lburou

It sounds like the exterminators have a strong lobby in Florida.


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## bevy's honeybees

dixiebooks said:


> Toker: Just wondering (and I realize you likely are not the individual who wrote the law) why a beek would need an exterminators license to remove bees alive. Exterminators KILL the pests they are after. No killing, no exterminating. Just me, but I think if I lived in FL I would happily violate that one and not lose a moment of sleep. -js


I hoped Americasbeekeeper might chime in on this one. He recently posted that Fla might be planning on going after the non licenced who do removals and charge. I looked into it at that time and it involves a test and $300, plus extra insurance, if I was going to go that far. I like doing removals but not that much. I wouldn not pay for the bees, as some others are posting. 

In the past month I've done one tree trapout and am going to do a wall trapout. Both planned to do it themselves by extermination if I didn't want the bees. To me, that's like killing any livestock just because they are a nusance, and the bees equal honey sales for me. Plus I love bees. 
I can't charge, I don't know if I can legally take gratuity as the tree bees man has offered. He has become a honey customer. So if he wants to give a gratuity, legal or illegal? I think I need to look into that.


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## bevy's honeybees

TokerM said:


> But this isn't about if there should be a charge, this has to do with the content of an ad that a professional exterminator put up to malign beekeepers by not explaining that the law does not ALLOW for beekeepers to charge, the author is implying that free bee removal implies "neophyte." You could have been a licensed contractor for 30 years and a beekeeper for 20, but according to this schmuck, you're a neophyte. It's unethical, but ethics isn't a matter of law, hence my suggestion to post a counter-ad.


Yes, that's what first annoyed me about the ad--the untruth as there are experienced beekeepers who do it for free. I read about them here all the time, and the man who taught me how to do removals is retired and well off, he does them for free. I would charge if legal and at a much more reasonable price than what local people are telling me they are quoted.


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## Lburou

If the laws around the country are rewritten to support exterminators, will use of Cleo Hogan's style traps be a beekeeper's best option?

We need to lobby to have bees named as livestock, and avoid the rules governing "pests".


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## Mr.Beeman

It may be against the law to remove bees in fla. and get paid for it, but it's not against the law to get re imbursed for mileage. :shhhh:


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## shannonswyatt

I would think it donations to a person would be totally legal as well!


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## Northwest PA Beekeeper

Interesting thread. If I lived in Florida and would do cut-outs - I wonder what the law says about "donations". The people are not paying you a fee, they are paying you (or more matter of factly) making a donation to you. (You know, to help "defray" your expenses.)

It's always interesting on how people look at cutouts. Some people that have bees in their houses, just want them gone. They consider the bees a pest and are happy to pay you to get rid of them.

Then on the flip side, you have people that have bees in their house, and think you should jump at the chance to get "free bees". Instead of having to pay $80.00 for a package of bees, you are getting these for "free". You are also harvesting all that honey the bees have stored, so with "free" bees and "free" honey they shouldn't have to pay you. In fact, some would think you should pay them - after all, you are getting "free" bees and "free" honey.


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## Mr.Beeman

lol northwest! 
I think we are getting taken advantage of here with our package bees. Ours here go for $110.00.
Where EXACTLY did you say you get yours from?


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## jbeshearse

Mr.Beeman said:


> It may be against the law to remove bees in fla. and get paid for it, but it's not against the law to get re imbursed for mileage. :shhhh:


482.165 Unlicensed practice of pest control; cease and desist order; injunction; civil suit and penalty.—(1) It is unlawful for a person, partnership, firm, corporation, or other business entity not licensed by the department to practice pest control.

Nowhere does this Florida Law mention payment as a prerequisite to practice Pest Control.

There are exceptions and limited certifications. But a registered beekeeper is not in any of them, except under the agricultural and individual exemption where we can manage our own pests and properties.


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## Mbeck

I have to jump in,I as a rule always look at government programs with suspicion.
Consider this.

The Florida Department of Ag division of Plants apiary department is in charge one of the largest states that produces apiary products. The mission is to protect the industry from unwanted pest and diseases. They also promote and support the industry. It is their responsibility to demonstrate they have guidelines and practices in place to protect the general population and the beekeeping industry nation wide. I think they are doing that.The media loves a AHB story. It is their job to set up the guidelines but more importantly it is our job to practice beekeeping in a way that supports those goals. Do it how you will.


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## tsmullins

bluegrass said:


> There was a multiple year study done by Uconn and Al Avitabile that showed that over 90% of Natural swarms fail to survive their first winter.


Beekeeping is regional, there is no way that 90% of swarms we hive fail to survive their first winter. We live in a zone 6 climate zone, so our winters are no cake walk. 

Shane


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

tsmullins.....I am with you. In fact I believe the study reversed the findings. I only hive about 20 swarms each year, and I could go back and check the records, but, I think my survival rate would be closer to 90%.

If the swarm queen is failing, you requeen in the fall, then you get survivability. The afterswarms have new queens, rarely need requeening. Swarms have the right mix of bees and build up fast and produce lots of honey the first year.

cchoganjr


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## Happy Honey Farm

We are providing a service his post is spot on. Your time is worth money and not charging hurts all of us beekeepers.


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## franktrujillo

i have experance removing hives from walls have done many removals "caution""danger" the things they dont tell you most of the time is that they have sprayed the bees by the home owner or pestcontrol.so you go for free bees invest time money two days sometimes new frames new boxes or old bring to your bee yard week or two goes buy then that hive you removed dies.other hives you have in bee yard rob out that hive you just thought you had free bees kills a coulple more of your hives now you have a problem contamination of all your hive or hives yep free....that's why alwasy charge isolate bee removals in another bee yard for at least for a year.seen a known sprayed hive die slowly took over 12 months slowly weakening over that time tried many things to try to save it even removing all comb starting fresh nothing drawn once spayed there doomed.so you dont charge if you like spending your own money foolishly......


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