# Natural cell varroa question.



## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

You're running into the very questions that have been asked repeatedly when proponents of SC and natural cell present their hypotheses.

What you'll likely find is that, so far, SC or natural cell has not been demonstrated scientifically to have the benefits suggested in dealing with _Varroa_. Of and by itself, cell size may not have any great influence on mite populations.


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## mudlake (Nov 26, 2007)

Who said all the feral hives died off. That has not been proved, the fact is the folks that said that now say maybe they were wrong. Ck some more of the post on here and you will find many different opinions. How can so many not treat and still have bee's some are small cell some are not. Do some more cking. Good Luck Tony


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

About 90 percent of the ferals were said to be decimated from varroa. The reason that they have collapsed in great numbers is that a high varroa influx from non resistant colonies will bring down all resistant colonies with them, no colony can handle high pressure, in spite of what some breeders brag thier bees capable of. 

The beekeepers that you see succeeding, incorporate natural size cells into their operation, and promote resistant stock by collecting ferals or other such good stock to such a degree that it promotes resistant genetics in the micro population of honeybees surrounding their apiary. With less mite pressure coming from this population, the natural cell size, along with resistant traits are able to handle the mites just fine, and resistant genetics continue to develop. 

From me bringing in many dozens of ferals into my area for assessment, I have succeeded in accelerating resistant genetics in my local feral population. Ferals are very abundant in my area now, and no treatments are necessary to keep bees alive due to a healthy population of feral bees that have low mite pressure. 

You have to change the local population of bees to a more resistant type to succeed with natural cell. This is why you see so many of these small cell tests failing. They are not considering the environmental influence, which is the local population of bees and mites.

Joe


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*small cell vs natural cell*

Keep in mind that small cell and natural cell are usually two entirely different things.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Keep in mind that small cell and natural cell are usually two entirely different things.

I'd say "somewhat different" rather than "entirely different".  Both have to do with cell size. Both are smaller. One is more uniform. One is more varied. Neither is 5.4mm.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#feralbees


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Neither is 5.4mm.


Actually, from what I've seen just about the same percentage of freely drawn brood comb is 5.4 compared to 4.9. In both cases less than 2%.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

FWIW I have just measured samples of natural comb from several of my TBHs and it is pretty much all 5.1 - 5.2mm. This would be storage comb rather than last season's brood comb, which I have yet to check as it is too cold to go that far into the hives yet.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

buckbee said:


> FWIW I have just measured samples of natural comb from several of my TBHs and it is pretty much all 5.1 - 5.2mm.


What 'race' of bee do you keep? I understand that the dark, Northern European honey bee, Apis mellifera mellifera (commonly found in Great Britian) is smaller than the Italian, Apis mellifera ligustica (typically found in N America). 
If you are keeping A.m.m. your cell size will likely be smaller than those of A.m.l.


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## Dinor (Mar 6, 2007)

Cowan in the 19th century stated the average cell size of naturally built brood comb was 5 cells to the inch which if I have converted it correctly amounts to 5.08mm per cell. Please someone correct me if I have interpreted this incorrectly.

Source: THE HONEY BEE:ITS NATURAL HISTORY, ANATOMY, AND PHYSIOLOGY 1890


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

beemandan said:


> What 'race' of bee do you keep? I understand that the dark, Northern European honey bee, Apis mellifera mellifera (commonly found in Great Britian) is smaller than the Italian, Apis mellifera ligustica (typically found in N America).
> If you are keeping A.m.m. your cell size will likely be smaller than those of A.m.l.


My bees are Buckfast/Italian/whatever - as I don't have a mating station and I am surrounded by Buckfast apiaries, I don't have a lot of choice!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Cowan in the 19th century stated the average cell size of naturally built brood comb was 5 cells to the inch which if I have converted it correctly amounts to 5.08mm per cell.

You are correct.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#historiccellsize


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## CSbees (Aug 7, 2007)

Survivor colonies will survive in nature or in the beeyards. If nobody would have treated in the late 80s we would still have descendants of both feral and hived bees from the genetics of survivor colonies. If one can breed from all survivor colonies, the bees would be incredibly resistant.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Question:

If natural/small cell size will control Varroa, why did all the feral bees die off?

Answer:

The problem is that this question typically comes with several assumptions.

The first assumption is that the feral bees have all but died out. I have not found this to be true. I see a lot of feral bees and I see more every year.

The second assumption is that when some of the feral bees did die, that they all died from Varroa mites. A lot of things happened to the bees in this country including Tracheal mites, and viruses. I'm sure some of the survival from some of this is a matter of selection. The ones that couldn't withstand them died.

The third assumption is that huge numbers of mites hitchhiking in on robbers can't overwhelm a hive no matter how well they handle Varroa. Tons of crashing domestic hives were bound to take a toll. Even if you have a fairly small and stable local population of Varroa, a huge influx from outside will overwhelm a hive.

The fourth assumption is that a recently escaped swarm will build small cell. They will build something in between. For many years most of the feral bees were recent escapees. The population of feral bees was kept high by a lot of recent escapees and, in the past, those escapees often survived. It's only recently I've seen a shift in the population to be the dark bees rather than the Italians that look like they are recent. Large bees (bees from 5.4 mm foundation) build an in between sized comb, usually around 5.1 mm. So these recently swarmed domestic bees are not fully regressed and often die in the first year or two.

The fifth assumption is that small cell beekeepers don't believe there is also a genetic component to the survival of bees with Varroa. Obviously there are bees that are more or less hygienic and more or less able to deal with many pests and diseases. Whenever a new disease or pest comes along the ferals have to survive them without any help.

The sixth assumption is that the feral bees suddenly died. The bees have been diminishing for the last 50 years fairly steadily from pesticide misuse, loss of habitat and forage, and more recently from bee paranoia. People hear about AHB and kill any swarm they see.


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