# Should I feed the bees?



## JamesK (Jun 27, 2016)

Hi, I am in my first year beekeeping and elected to start with a TBH, I am a little concerned that I am not seeing any honey stores in the hive yet, with the exception of the honey at the top of the brood combs.

The package was installed on April 30th, our spring was colder than normal and we have had a lot of rain as well, I know this affects the bees and their being able to get out and forage.

During my last full inspection on June 26th I thought I should be seeing a comb or two of honey, but I am not. The queen is doing great, a lot of eggs and worker brood and not a lot of drone brood but it's in there.

They stopped building comb at bar 12, meaning they started building comb on bar 12 but have yet to complete the comb.

With the lack of comb building would it be worth trying to see if they will take sugar syrup? being a newbie to beekeeping obviously I still have a lot to learn, but surely wouldn't want the hive going into winter without stores.

Am I being a bit paranoid about this or is my concern about not seeing any stores legit?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

What is in the 11 frames?


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## JamesK (Jun 27, 2016)

Riverderwent said:


> What is in the 11 frames?



In bars 2-10 brood, they started building comb on bar 1 and bar 12 but never completed building the comb. 
Bar 11 looks to be about a quarter filled with uncapped honey, with no brood.

Thanks


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

If you feed syrup, they'll use it to build more comb where they can store the syrup plus any nectar/honey they get during the Fall. They are probably using all the nectar/honey to raise brood right now. Don't think it would hurt to feed them right now.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

JamesK said:


> In bars 2-10 brood, they started building comb on bar 1 and bar 12 but never completed building the comb.
> Bar 11 looks to be about a quarter filled with uncapped honey, with no brood.


That does not sound like much stores going into summer unless there is a fair amount of uncapped nectar on the margins of the brood bars. If there is a dearth in your area, I would watch the hive closely and be prepared to feed.


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## JamesK (Jun 27, 2016)

I appreciate the replies, I will be watching the hive closely, I think I will introduce a pint of sugar syrup wait a day and check to see if they are taking it, if so I will continue to feed them until they stop taking it again. I had not planned on taking honey from the hive this year, my main concern is making sure they have enough stores to survive the winter.

Thanks again,
James


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## buffaloeletric (Mar 11, 2010)

JamesK, I am a newb as well and live in your region. I received my package on May 23rd and have about the same situation as you. They have stopped on comb 9 which makes sense being I got mine later than yours. No full capped combs, just what is stored above the brood. I'd like to stay in contact if that's okay. Seems maybe you made that mistake I did of only getting one hive. I think by comparing ours, it could be like as if we each had two. i live on the border of WV/VA on the western end of the states. Right now the only major honey producers in bloom are Chestnut. Milkweed is about to start up here.


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## buffaloeletric (Mar 11, 2010)

Oh yea, you didn't get Russian bees by chance, did you?


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## JamesK (Jun 27, 2016)

Staying in contact is fine, I purchased Italians after researching I thought the Italians would best suit my needs..


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Am I being a bit paranoid about this or is my concern about not seeing any stores legit?

It's an established colony with no stores. You are not being paranoid. If there is nothing coming in or even if it rains for a week, they could starve with no stores.


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## Rydalch (Mar 29, 2016)

I'm new at this too, but for what it's worth, I'll tell you how my colony is doing so you can compare. I live in Southeast Idaho and I believe for the most part my bees are just foraging the weeds raspberries, and wild roses right now. I have one hive which are a mix of Carniolans, Italians, and Russians. I have fed them sugar water since I got the package on May 9. They are starting to build the 16th comb. I also was worried that they had not started any honeycomb and all the combs were only brood; however, last night when I checked the hive, comb 15 was so heavy and full of nectar that I believe this _finally_ is the beginning of the honeycomb. I also noticed they had gone gangbusters building up to bar 9 and then slowed way down (this is when I had only given them 12 bars). So I expanded the hive to 20 bars and they went gangbusters again. I've now expanded the hive yet again to 25 or so bars. I'm not sure if they went gangbusters because they felt they had the room or if it was just in connection with a nectar flow (I'm still trying to learn about the nectar flows and such). Anyway, hope that helps.


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## buffaloeletric (Mar 11, 2010)

Rydalch, I've left mine at twelve bars. I wanted to leave room in case mine started showing signs of swarming or superseding that I could use the other half as an increase nuc. Now that I've built a whole other hive, maybe I should try expanding and see what happens.


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## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

With a New hive and package, your bees are burning a lot of energy to build comb in the spring. The fact that they have stores across the top is a good sign. I would fed until you have 15 combs started. Then you can cut back to a quart a week to makes sure they are adding stores and using them up. 

As Michael said it doesn't take long in a dearth for them to starve. My 3 packages this year are just about at 15 bars and they are starting to use the last two combs for only honey storage. 
A split hive with the old queen has brood through the first to 15th comb with various amounts of capped honey in the last 4 combs.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

A fair rule of thumb until you get a better feel for it is any time when you don't see at least 15 pounds of honey stores in the hive you should feed until you reach that threshold. Do your inspections, but also heft the hive so that you can learn what it feels like when they are lean or not.


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## JamesK (Jun 27, 2016)

Thank you all for the great advice, I have put some sugar syrup in the hive and will check tomorrow to see if they are taking it. When I checked the hive yesterday I noticed they were working bar 13 and 14, just starting them, so hopefully they will make a turnaround and with some help be able to get some stores.

I did notice they seemed to be getting agitated very easily with my last 2 inspections (June 9th and 26th) judging by the way they sounded when I opened the hive, yesterday they seemed more calm and sounded more at ease with a nice low hum, if that makes sense.

Thank you all again, will keep you posted.
James


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## JamesK (Jun 27, 2016)

I added quart of sugar syrup to the hive yesterday, when I checked this morning there was only a cup left in the jar, I swapped it out with a full jar.

I only have a 20 bar hive so I removed the follower board and placed an empty bar behind bars 3,6 and 9, and left the rest as they were with the feeder under the last two bars. I am prepared to feed daily if need be, I have a 12 day supply of sugar syrup prepared, provided they use a quart a day 

Have a great day,
James


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## mailmam (May 8, 2014)

I am a big advocate of feeding my bees after losing them to starvation. If they don't need it, they don't drink it but I'm swapping out quart jars every 3 days or so. The young man I got my bees from said he fed his all summer last year.


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## JamesK (Jun 27, 2016)

The quart I put in the hive yesterday morning was dry this morning so I suspect they will go through a quart a day for now. That's good though, it reduces the chance of the starving. I figure they will now concentrate on building comb on the three empty bars I placed in between bars 3,6 and 9.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am a big advocate of feeding my bees after losing them to starvation.

I think you should always feed when they are faced with starvation...

>If they don't need it, they don't drink it 

That is simply not true. I would say the colony that won't take it is not unheard of but very rare. Bees are hoarders and they will hoard every bit of syrup they can get.


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## mailmam (May 8, 2014)

Well, I will defer to Michael Bush but I must have the exception to the rule. I have two hives gulping down syrup and one hive who has yet to finish a jar. I would feel much better if they were gulping down the syrup because they aren't doing much in the hive.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

mailmam said:


> Well, I will defer to Michael Bush but I must have the exception to the rule. I have two hives gulping down syrup and one hive who has yet to finish a jar. I would feel much better if they were gulping down the syrup because they aren't doing much in the hive.


To clarify, "Bees are hoarders and they will hoard every bit of syrup they can get." Frequently we see that they quit taking it when there's no where to put it, subsequently you end up with the issue you state, "they aren't doing much in the hive." They hoard and store it into space that should be reserved for brood, egg laying slows and with no young bees hatching, no comb gets built and the hive stalls out.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

ChuckReburn said:


> To clarify, "Bees are hoarders and they will hoard every bit of syrup they can get." Frequently we see that they quit taking it when there's no where to put it, subsequently you end up with the issue you state, "they aren't doing much in the hive." They hoard and store it into space that should be reserved for brood, egg laying slows and with no young bees hatching, no comb gets built and the hive stalls out.


So what is the fix for this situation? Looks like a catch-22 for those who don't have drawn comb at hand. Feed bees to draw foundation out, bees draw comb and start storing syrup in brood area, queen slows down. Stop feeding, foundation does not get drawn out, queen has no reason/place to lay, stores run dangerously low.


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

cervus said:


> So what is the fix for this situation? Looks like a catch-22 for those who don't have drawn comb at hand. Feed bees to draw foundation out, bees draw comb and start storing syrup in brood area, queen slows down. Stop feeding, foundation does not get drawn out, queen has no reason/place to lay, stores run dangerously low.


I've heard that if you keep stuffing foundation in the brood nest, the queen can lay before the bees can build the comb out enough to store honey (she lays at a lower wall height). Not a good solution for everyone though.


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## mailmam (May 8, 2014)

I do have more drawn comb, I never thought about giving them more, I thought they would be grateful for the comb I gave them and then build their own. Do I have really lazy bees or what?? I did move the feeder into the body of the hive instead of behind the follower board and this morning several bees were clustered around it but the other two hives had already drained theirs. I need to buy stock in sugar.


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## JamesK (Jun 27, 2016)

I will also agree, the bees have been taking a quart a day, did an inspection yesterday (checking up on a queen cup to see if it was being put to use) and noticed they are back filling the brood comb with the syrup, so I think maybe limiting what I am giving them will help with that. While I do want them to build comb and get some stores in the hive I don't want the queen to not have a place to lay eggs.

The queen cup I was checking on was nowhere to be seen, it was on the side of the comb, but I didn't see it during my inspection yesterday.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

cervus said:


> So what is the fix for this situation? Looks like a catch-22 for those who don't have drawn comb at hand. Feed bees to draw foundation out, bees draw comb and start storing syrup in brood area, queen slows down. Stop feeding, foundation does not get drawn out, queen has no reason/place to lay, stores run dangerously low.


The fix is to feed at an appropriate rate that the syrup doesn't get stored in the brood nest. Baring that, feed more when you are seeing larval development in dry cells and less when you are seeing back filling. We do fairly well growing nucs out with about 2 quarts a week.

The concept is not so simple as "Stop feeding, foundation does not get drawn out." Foundation is drawn by young bees with an adequate flow of nectar or syrup. If you are trying to draw comb, back up a step and realize that you need to be concerned with growing young bees first. To that point, I try to keep the nucs a little on the "dry" side, larval development where they aren't swimming in royal jelly isn't ideal but it will get the job done.

I've never had stores "run dangerously low" on a nuc fed 1 quart twice a week. Typically these quart feeders have about 5 thumb tack size holes and it can't be emptied any faster than 2-3 days. If on inspection there is some back filling, skip a feeding - This is not "stopping feeding" - the feed is already in the hive. Once the feed is cleaned out, resume light feeding and reconsider the rate (maybe a quart every 5 days).


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

So, an open feeder (i.e. top feeder or frame feeder) is not a good idea since there is no way to meter it? Even if on a full-size box?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

cervus said:


> So what is the fix for this situation? Looks like a catch-22 for those who don't have drawn comb at hand. Feed bees to draw foundation out, bees draw comb and start storing syrup in brood area, queen slows down. Stop feeding, foundation does not get drawn out, queen has no reason/place to lay, stores run dangerously low.


Having had a swarmy year this year, and never having had to feed before except occasionally my first year, this is the exact situation I'm.

I am starting to realize what ChuckReburn says holds a lot of truth. Young bees are a must.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

cervus said:


> So, an open feeder (i.e. top feeder or frame feeder) is not a good idea since there is no way to meter it? Even if on a full-size box?


They are both great ways to put weight on but that's not your objective... 

I find a lot of problems in a newbies hive under a top feeder, over fed, rancid syrup with a struggling hive under it - it makes monitoring the brood nest difficult so it seems to be frequently not done. I see a real advantage in the fall where there's drawn comb and I want to put weight on fast.

Frame feeders (and we're just going to them this year due to numbers) worked OK for me this spring. I'm going to try 1/2 gallon once a week in 2 outyards (40 hives) before I form an opinion on using them to feed during summer dearth. I perceive the On (maybe 2 days?) / Off for 5 to be not as ideal as a steady trickle.

For someone willing to work with quart feeders, they offer an ideal method of controlling daily consumption and looking more like a nectar flow to the bees.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

>Having had a swarmy year this year, and never having had to feed before except occasionally my first year, this is the exact situation I'm.

I am starting to realize what ChuckReburn says holds a lot of truth. Young bees are a must. 

Yep. 

> For someone willing to work with quart feeders, they offer an ideal method of controlling daily consumption and looking more like a nectar flow to the bees.

I was/am using them on a couple of nucs. The only downside for me was constructing a shim or using another nuc box on top. Didn't want to cut the migratory tops.


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## mailmam (May 8, 2014)

If we are all talking top bar and the frame feeders that I see are for a lang hive, how does that work for TB?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So what is the fix for this situation? Looks like a catch-22 for those who don't have drawn comb at hand. Feed bees to draw foundation out, bees draw comb and start storing syrup in brood area, queen slows down. Stop feeding, foundation does not get drawn out, queen has no reason/place to lay, stores run dangerously low.

"Most problems are imaginary. Most solutions are illusions"--Michael Bush

Your problem is imaginary. It's not your job to make the bees draw comb. They will draw it when they need it. Feeding them as a solution is a illusion. You are just backfilling the brood nest to where the queen has no where to lay. If there is no nectar coming in and they don't have enough stores and it's not fall yet, then feed them slowly if you can. A jar lid with three holes instead of 20. Or if you can't do that, then feed them a small amount more frequently but with breaks in between where they run out of syrup and have to figure what to do with what they have. Come fall if they are light, feed them heavily and quickly to get them up to weight.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

mailmam said:


> If we are all talking top bar and the frame feeders that I see are for a lang hive, how does that work for TB?


I'm sorry. I hijacked this thread before I saw the sub-forum. It just showed up under new posts. My apologies.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> >So what is the fix for this situation? Looks like a catch-22 for those who don't have drawn comb at hand. Feed bees to draw foundation out, bees draw comb and start storing syrup in brood area, queen slows down. Stop feeding, foundation does not get drawn out, queen has no reason/place to lay, stores run dangerously low.
> 
> "Most problems are imaginary. Most solutions are illusions"--Michael Bush
> 
> Your problem is imaginary. It's not your job to make the bees draw comb. They will draw it when they need it. Feeding them as a solution is a illusion. You are just backfilling the brood nest to where the queen has no where to lay. If there is no nectar coming in and they don't have enough stores and it's not fall yet, then feed them slowly if you can. A jar lid with three holes instead of 20. Or if you can't do that, then feed them a small amount more frequently but with breaks in between where they run out of syrup and have to figure what to do with what they have. Come fall if they are light, feed them heavily and quickly to get them up to weight.


Makes perfect sense. Thanks.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

mailmam said:


> If we are all talking top bar and the frame feeders that I see are for a lang hive, how does that work for TB?


The discussion got a bit general... the same issue as to rate of feed applies to top bars. Langs have a number of devices available that allow feed to be added fast, I've seen frame feeders and trough feeders made for top bars - it just takes a little more ingenuity and dedication to pour the feed to them.


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## JamesK (Jun 27, 2016)

I made a feeder that is attached to the back of my TBH, it will allow to add 4 quart jars for feeding. I currently have one pint jar in the feeder.


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