# Can I extract honey from frames treated with oxalic acid?



## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

You can't sell it, but personally i don't think it would matter. So if you want to consume it for personal use, go right ahead. But don't even think about selling it...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Spin some of the frames out and give them back to the bees. Keep the honey separate and see if it has any bite or lingering tingle on your tongue. You cannot taste oxalic acid. Some honeys from other sources can be pretty tangy too. Some tests in Europe claim that after several weeks post treatment that the oxalic level peak returns to background level. 

You can always feed it back to the bees in the fall. I have half a pail of honey that is a good percentage sugar syrup that I extracted to free up frames for nucs. That will be diluted and fed back. If someone were using a lot of honey for cooking, your suspect honey would be super but not a good road to start down.


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## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

I certainly hope you don't feed it to your children or friends.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Oa is the same that comes from spinach. The kids should be fine. The dangers from ingested oa are at levels much higher than found from oav. It would be higher for oa dribble, though even then I've heard it takes about 3 cups of the treatment solution to be lethal. This is much more than what's used in oa dribble. Even if the bees stored 100%, which they wouldn't, still should not be a danger. That said, use your own judgement after doing some research, and don't sell it.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you don't sell it then eating it is not a good option too.
If you feed them back to the bees then make sure they don't store
it also. EPA recommend not to oav with the supers on.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

If i did it, i would still eat the honey, personally. I just told him not to sell it because it's not legal, ethical or good business practice. 

We don't want someone selling honey like this and then get lumped into one group with the Chinese.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

NO

NO

NO

NO


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## RogerCrum (Jun 19, 2011)

Oxalic acid naturally occurs in honey. Frankly, it's the dihydrous oxide that frightens me because it is being used in everything these days, even baby formula.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Ya know I don't treat - but everything I have read here says the honey supers should not have been on in the first place - me id use it for feed


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, but in what concentration from the treatment?
And how safe is it to eat the honey? Once the oa is inside the
honey cell and got cap then how long to wait until it gets to a safe level before
you can consume it? Without a method to know the concentration of the oa I would
be worry too.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

RogerCrum said:


> Frankly, it's the dihydrous oxide that frightens me because it is being used in everything these days, even baby formula.


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## RogerCrum (Jun 19, 2011)

Oxalic acid is a natural constituent of honey and treatment does not appreciably increase the amount. Oxalic acid is also in spinach, rhubarb, tea and imparts the bitter taste. Oxalic acid is an organic acid that is not fat soluble so it doesn't build up or persist in the wax. Personally, I would not have left the super of honey on during treatment but now that that horse is out of the barn you might as well extract it and make personal use of it. Studies of OA in honey from treated versus untreated hives showed very little increase.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

RogerCrum said:


> Oxalic acid naturally occurs in honey. Frankly, it's the dihydrous oxide that frightens me because it is being used in everything these days, even baby formula.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So if there is very little increase then why not extract and sell the honey?
Why the caution here by other members not to sell it? If it is safe to extract and eat
the honey I would assume it will apply to all, right.


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## RogerCrum (Jun 19, 2011)

I would not sell the honey because we all stand or fall on the absolute commitment to the quality of our methods and product. My honey jars bear the words, "How do you know the honey is pure unless you know the beekeeper". The issue isn't a diminished safety, it is a diminished integrity.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Are you implying that after the oav the honey is not safe for consuming anymore?
If it is safe then what is wrong with selling them to your customer?
If oa is so natural that does not leave a residue how come you cannot sell it? If oa does not
cause any harm then I don't see why you cannot sell it. If it is safe to eat then it is safe to sell. Then how come
the EPA site caution on removing the supers when you oav?


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## RogerCrum (Jun 19, 2011)

No implication at all. The honey is not at all unsafe to consume. The treatment for varroa mites using oxalic acid is permitted by the EPA with a condition that supers not be in place during the treatment process. Therefore the treatment was in violation of the regulation. 

Human urine is sterile as it leaves the body. Doctors used to taste the urine samples to detect the sweet taste caused by diabetes. No health hazard at all.

Customer: "So this honey is just as healthy as that sold in the store?" 
Beekeeper: "Absolutely healthy and tasty too. Except that I should tell you that I took a bit of a wee in this last batch but it is sterile, the color is lovely and the infusion of the wee hasn't changed the earthy taste of the woodland honey". 

It isn't a matter of diminished safety but of the customers expectation of a product that has been produced observing good compliance with established practices.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for clarifying this issue for me.
Anything that is not as pure or original form of the honey is not saleable.
If I cannot sell then I will not eat it as well. I will feed them back to the bees
hoping that they will eat it in the form of a patty sub. That way they cannot store
it anymore. Hopefully they will have a way to dilute the oa further.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

RogerCrum said:


> The issue isn't a diminished safety, it is a diminished integrity.


Agreed. Same reason I wouldn't sell extracted honey with capped syrup in it. Chemically, it's near identical by that stage after the enzymes, curing, etc. but as a consumer I wouldn't want to pay for that and as a producer I won't sell it either. Same for oa 'tainted', the consumer doesn't expect it to be there. As for why it's not legal to treat with supers on, I suspect out of excess caution with a treatment 'rushed' into approval. They applied some rules consistent with other forms of chemical mite treatment. Given time and research I'd bet they could lift that restriction, though there is no motivation for them to do it so the rule likely will stay. Don't overthink it.

From wikipedia:
In humans, ingested oxalic acid has an oral LDLo (lowest published lethal dose) of 600 mg/kg.[32] It has been reported that the lethal oral dose is 15 to 30 grams.

This is much higher than a hive dose of 1-3g. Based on this you would need to eat all honey, comb, bees, lick frames and supers clean, and from 5 to 10 or more full size hives to reach a minimally lethal amount. Do some searches and you will find many here that have treated and consumed their honey without death or ill health.

Want something to be scared of!? A single treatment amount of oav while in vapor form can make the air volume equal to a 2000 sq ft home lethal for over15 minutes if performed in open air on a still day. Give it a breeze and that deadly fog will travel. Wear your masks, and for your neighbors and the birds, seal the cracks.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

The range of oxalic acid in honey from untreated colonies was found to be 5–65mg/kg of honey in this publication:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...xalic_acid_treated_and_untreated_bee_colonies

You treated a three brood chamber hive. I will assume those are three mediums. If that top medium is 2/3s full of honey that amounts to about ten Kg of honey. So a normal amount of oxalic acid in that honey could be as much as 0.65 grams if the bees were working a high oxalic acid flower. I doubt very much if the amount you treated with would put your honey over the limit. Particularly if you do not save the honey from the cappings. I personally would have zero problem eating that honey or feeding it to my kids and wife and friends. But, from a strictly legal stand point selling it is illegal. Why not just leave it on for winter feed?

Just for perspective a three ounce serving of spinach has about 0.75 grams of oxalic acid in it. I happen to like spinach. I could see myself eating at least a two ounce serving. I can not see myself eating a pound and a half serving of honey which might have about that same amount of oxalic acid in it after treatment.


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## Robert L. Gifford (Feb 27, 2021)

Erawling said:


> I have a hive with a third brood chamber on it that has no brood in it and is honey packed.
> I have treated this hive twice with oxalic acid.The last treatment was about 5weeks ago.
> So is it safe or should I just keep the frames for my other hives if they need it come winter?
> I"m still new at this so I'm sorry if this sounds like a dumb question.:s


Hey, Oxalic Acid was cleared over two years ago by USDA-ARS, and FDA for use on varroa mites in Bee hives. Yes you can sell it to the public. Oxalic Acid is found in most veggies and many other foods sold at the supermarket. 
Good Luck 
[email protected]


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Robert L. Gifford said:


> Hey, Oxalic Acid was cleared over two years ago by USDA-ARS, and FDA for use on varroa mites in Bee hives. Yes you can sell it to the public. Oxalic Acid is found in most veggies and many other foods sold at the supermarket.


The original approval of oxalic acid for varroa control in beehives was approved by the EPA in 2015. That approval had a restriction of NOT applying oxalic acid when any honey supers were present on the hive. 

There is an effort to modify the rule so that honey supers CAN be in place during application of oxalic acid, but as far as I know that approval process is not yet fully completed. _*Some*_ of the steps involved have been completed.

As with ALL PESTICIDE application, you MUST follow the procedures on the LABEL of the container that the pesticide you have was sold in.

More information on the status of this situation here:


Oxalic Acid FAQ's : USDA ARS



Note: The USDA is the applicant that arranged for the submittal of oxalic acid registration as a pesticide in the first place, so they are quite familiar with the current situation.


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