# I just forked out another $1000. bill for frames and foundation.



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I walked my yard to take some inventory of my queen population in various stages of maturity and counted how many box's and frames I will need sometime this and next month to top the hives and nucs. My flow is just starting. I almost scared myself when I did the math. 400- 500 more frames parts and foundation was my conservative number. (Commercial guys are laughing I know, but this is a lot for me as basically a beginner)
Add the cost of another Senco SLS 18mg small crown stapler-since I apparently have worn mine out.

What a difference overwintered, established hives make. Their maintenance this spring is far easier then new packages or nucs. They have been nearly 100% self sufficient this spring and it has been very enjoyable. I know I have good genetics for my area, I know I have not brought in any pests or disease with bees from another apiary. 

For those that don't know me, I started out with 7 nucs in 2010 and now have close to 100 hives and nucs, not including the mini mating nucs. No lessons, no mentor. Only Beesource, Michael Bush's web site, and YouTube videos as guidance.

I've been surprised at the regular flow of resources this spring. Really, even none of my mating nucs will take up supplemental feed. My larger hives have a surplus and my swarm prevention and general inspections have been my only real chore in the bee yard. (Other than queen rearing)
We've had a good amount of rain this spring and I have never seen the blackberry bushes so loaded with blossoms.

I was at this point last year and chose to sell a few nucs to pay for the equipment and sugar I needed to sustain the rest. I am at a cross roads now with the same issue. Do I sell a bit to pay for my expenses or keep them and continue to grow?

I am typically a person who's motto is 'If it is worth doing, it is worth over doing' LOL. That can get me into trouble with lots of work to the tune of 7 days a week, 12-14 hours a day. So I've been careful not to get too deep in the bees too quickly. 
I have just been going with the flo-but the bees are flourishing. The flo has become more of a tidal surge.

I raise and sell a few locally mated Northern queens here in Western Washington State, and the call for them as early as possible is overwhelming, due to the apparent high percentage of nuc and purchased package queen failures. I can't do that without resources to fill my mating nucs, however. So more overwintered hives will be necessary. 

After spending close to $2000. of sugar and feed last year, (Most of my hives then were from new packages and nucs) I bought a car trailer this year and am having it modified to be bear resistant so I can take some hives to higher elevations to take advantage of a continued flow. ( I'll leave the hives on the trailer..so I can move them without having to lift them myself and construct temporary bear fencing) I'll post a photo of this trailer as soon as it is done.

So my need for supplemental feed , although less because my hives are established, will also be less because these mountain hives will make my surplus..that can be distributed to my nucs if necessary for overwintering. 

I feel good with my success so far,and am confident in my hive management and overwintering methods. 
My weak link still is my lack of real structured scheduling. I feel like I am still flyin' by the seat of my pants at times. Although it has all worked out well. 

So do I need 300 frames next month or 600? One thing I do know, I better have the parts on hand for quick assembly if I do need them. Nothing like taking the top off your hive and seeing this and having no extra frames to give them! 










I finally got my benches built and numbered. I numbered the benches, not the hives so they would stay organized. Each bench has a name to correspond with the number.










Here's how I am organizing my frames as I assemble them..I cut out the bottom corners of the foundation
to allow the queen better access to the interior of the hive..and makes for easy hanging on a 1" pipe for storage.



















I built some short saw horses to hold mating nucs and starter colonies. Build them stout so they can hold the fall weight of these hives as they grow. It's a nice height for my back so I don't have to bend over all day.










Why am I posting all this? I see many times on Beesource, folks are just getting started and have a desire to grow much larger. I wanted to show them it is possible.
What is my biggest goal every year? Well I'll tell you what is at the bottom of my list. A surplus of honey for harvest. Hives need to be self sustaining with their honey production, but new freshly drawn frames with worker sized comb is at the top of the list. I can't manage my hives effeciently without them. I still use all deep frames with black rite cell to assure they will be drawn reliably and can be inserted in or above the broodnest at any time.
Frames that look like this are really priceless for a growing apiary and hive management, in my opinion. 










The only bad thing about successfully overwintering your bees? When everyone else is ordering their bees and the excitement builds as the new spring shipment is due to come in, you feel like you are missing out on Christmas..Hee hee, Funny how enthused adults get with bees. I feel left out right up to the time they are handing over their $100. bills to the local supplier.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


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## Kjd173 (Jun 7, 2012)

Wow, that's a great success story! I commend you on your work and going all in. I know the feeling about overdoing things! I started with one overwintered hive this year and between swarms, trapouts, and cutouts I'm up to 10 hives. I've made several 200$ trips to the local bee product suppliers. I am at the point where I should probably start passing up the free bees, but its tough to do! Best wishes for continued success!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

So what if you have to spend some money. You are selling bees and queens, right? It's just part of the game. It is best to have extra frames on hand, over and above what you think you need. Bees and beekeeping is opportunistic and if the bees have an opportunity to collect they do... if there is no storage room available they swarm and you loose the opportunity. On 100 hives and extra 500 frames would be good to have on hand. That is only 5 frames per hive on average. On a good flow that can be done in a week or so by the bees. If you notice they are short of room it is already late like the first picture. Besides if you do not use them this year you can use them next year. If you are a bit short of cash sell a hive or two or three, whatever it takes. That is what I have been doing since I started. Pay as I go. As your apiary expands then the payments get larger. No big deal to purchase 1 extra honey super for 10 hives. Different story for 100 or 1000.

Jean-Marc


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

It's funny how different everyone's maintenance techniques are. What you are doing is obviously working for you, but some of the things I've tried that you are currently doing, and just didn't work for me.

I gave up on buying assembled frames years ago. The cost just doesn't make sense to me. $2.00 a frame for me to assemble it, or $2.85 a frame for them to assemble it. Not bad when you are talking about a few frames. Not fun when you are talking about a few hundred. The only time it becomes cost effective is when you are buying 500+ at a time, but then you can usually get very good breaks on unassembled frames at that level too. But if you need them, you need them. I also do my inventory in the fall, not the spring, so I know what I need to build in the winter.

I've had bad experiences with plastic foundation. I find the bees can draw out a frame 2x faster if it's wax foundation.

I tried storing my frames in the open (once drawn). Too many critters got to them, regardless of the protection I used.

I tried benches, and still use a few, but for the most part drift on them are CRAZY. 

I stopped having all my hives look the same years ago too. Now it's a variety, like a rainbow of colors. The random assortment reduces drift and adds intrigue.

But all in all, good for you.

I'd be interested in seeing your trailer. I'm going to begin something fairly similar soon. Still toying with the size (single axle vs. double, 12' vs. 14 or 16'). My truck can only pull 3.5k lbs, which is as much as a single axle 12' can hold. Sounds about right for what it would fit, but you never know. 

You're probably at the point where you might want to consider palletizing some of your hives. Just a thought.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Lauri:

I'm struck by how expensive keeping just a few hives has become.

I think that you should, at the very least, sell what you need to so that you can recoup a portion of the $ investment that you've already made.

Otherwise, it will be an 'out of control' hobby/project.

Frankly, it's the amount left over, after you've paid off yourself and your expenses that should be used to determine how fast you can grow.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

And to think my goal of building up to 40 hives was very daunting for me, thanks for the inspiration and the post.

Stephen


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Just a little south of you here, spring came early this year for certain. My flow is just about over at this elevation (and should just be starting) but as you have said I can drive 35 minutes up the mountain to where it is just starting. I also have not been able to say ahead of the curve and have placed 3 additional orders for frames and foundation. Curious if you have a person that you are going to park your hives on or go for Federal or State land?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'd like to see the trailer too, better have some spikes, cuz "if the man says spikes, give him spikes!"


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I have a few property owners in Eatonville on Alder lake and in Morton that will let me park the trailer behind a locked gate. I am at 350 feet elevation here at my place. Morton is about 1050 feet. Above that, I'm still looking for a place where they won't get stolen or vandalized.

The car trailer I got was smaller than I wanted, but the price was too good to pass up. $600. for a tandam 6 1/2' x 14' in near new condition. Another $500 for materials to modify it and it should be great. We are using what they call (6 gauge ) High five Horse panels all around with permanant high tention cable installed bottom, center and top -hooked to a solar charger. I believe The only labor involved in moving the hives will be installing a ground rod at each location for the charger. 

http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp...op_category=&urlLangId=&cm_vc=-10005#desc-tab


I wanted about an 8'x 20' flatbed, and if this one works as well as I think it will, I'll be getting a bigger trailer next year.
Since it is all an experiment, I'll stick with the good deals and cheap-os for now.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

How many of your hives do you intend to move up and down the mountain?

At first glance, it seems like a good idea.

But, in my opinion, you're just throwing money at it.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Where were you able to find a trailer that size for $600? New?

Best price I can find for a single axle 12' is $1,050 new. 14' would add another $100. Duel axel would bring it to $1,500. Brakes on a duel make it $1,650.

That's new, of course. I have been able to find some on craigslist, every now and then. Most ask $1,000-2,000. I can usually haggle them down to $800, at best, but they usually "lost the title", and it isn't worth the hastle paying $800 for something that isn't street legal.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

There is another way to play this game if you are willing to render wax. Don't use frames for supers. You don't need to inspect the supers only the brood chamber. Make simple rectangular boxes that fit the Lang with a removable lid and a hole in the center so the bees can go from box to box. At harvest you pull the lid off which will have all the comb attached then crush and strain. Large scale this could be done by machine separating the wax from the honey. There are already machines that exist that do it for capings.

After though ... You could use 1/4 mesh as the lids as shown in Lauri's photo.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Lauri, if it's a air stapler you can get a rebuild kit for it, they are pretty simple to rebuild. I know what you mean by dropping a 1000 bucks, I spent 1400 on foundation alone not counting frames or supers.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I looked on craigs list for a year for a flatbed or car trailer. Most want just about as much used as you can buy one for new. A friend of a friend had this trailer and Just made me a good deal. It's used, but in great condition. I was just lucky. 

I'll fill the trailer with as many hives as it will hold comfortably. I just have close to the limit of too many hives in one location here at home. This is a way I can move some of them without having to depend on help. Basically, it will be my 'second yard' only it will be mobile.

Yeah, I'll throw a little money at it. I even have some scrap diamond aluminum I'll trick it up with. 
The amount of work I'll avoid having to load and unload hives by hand and set up bear fence at every location seems like it is worth the couple bucks I'll spent on a trailer.
Not to mention the weight of the fall hives I'll be hauling home. I can just go secure the hives, hook it up and come home. The only thing I'll have to lift is my coffee cup to my lips along the way. (Unless I take my bow and shoot something ..it will be September/October you know I wonder how the bees will like an Elk carcass along for the ride? He should fit right down the center isle.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

It would be a long drive, but flat bed trucks are pretty cheep around here.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

In my opinion...

You should be sure to recoup as much of your investment as possible before expanding your operation.

I don't know if you're treatment free, but you could be exposing your bees to pests/pathogens that they haven't seen before by moving them.

Are any other beekeepers up there?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks Birdman. I figured it could be serviced and plan to do that, but I can't be without it even for one day. They are $95. on Amazon. delivered to my door. Mine won't set the staples reliably anymore and it is getting worse. I have to stop and set them by hand and it is a pain. I'm use to going faster than that.

No other beekeepers in the area as far as I know, other then someone with a hive or two. Mr. Rainier wilderness area for the most part. Fireweed and black berries. No commercial crops.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I've never even seen a One thousand dollar bill. 

Way to grow Lauri. Nice to see. I hope you aren't neglecting the horses.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I really enjoy seeing you're projects, & hearing the stories. Thanks for sharing.


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## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> "if the man says spikes, give him spikes!"


It's a trick. Get an axe.

Got to say, it's a beautiful setup and land you've got. I'm envious for sure. I would love to have more property to play with, but no such luck at this moment. That was also a killer deal on a trailer. Like other have said, around here, it'd have been $1k+, easy.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Beautiful queen! It is an addicting hobby and it sounds like you are on your way to making it a business. Do you have a plan for dealing with surplus honey from 100 colonies? I'm trying to stop at 40 but it is not easy.

I agree with SPECIALKAYME re hive colors - I try to use a different color paint each year - though repainting always begs the question what color should I use! I agree with you re: plastic foundation; I use Permadent and apply extra wax (of my own) to it. I don't have to worry about wax moths or SHB here - so my unused equipment gets stored in a shed - Your setup looks very nice!

It will be interesting to see how your bear trailer works out. Please post pictures and results! Be sure to cover the top!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very nice lauri! thanks for sharing. i'll be trying grafting for the first time on sunday, i'm prepared for 18 nucs (and I've got my queen supplier on standby just in case  )


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I've never even seen a One thousand dollar bill.


Last time I saw one was when playing Monopoly!


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

When I saw the title of the thread I thought for sure you you spent it on sugar!

Needing more frames that's a good thing!

Come over to the dark side and give Nick a call at Pierco. Call and one week later you have cases of frames that you can just drop in. You can even order them with or without wax. (And they are cheaper)


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Lauri, 
what is this foundation you speak of? I have been foundationless for 9 of the 10 years I've been keeping bees. saving a bunch of money is only part of the reason I did it, but if you look at the 300-600 frames you are ordering how much is the foundation 300-600$? foundationless is just like using foundation you just have to follow the rules( different rules of course) and normally it works out just fine, and just like with foundation sometimes you scratch your head and wonder why did they do that? just a thought.


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## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I'd be interested in seeing that set of rules if you can point me in a direction. Switching over to Langs and am putting together my equipment now and planned to not use foundation. Though, I'm just a peeon when it comes to these #s.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I'd do foundationless on shallow frames, not on deeps however. Just too much hassle to wire and they still fracture with minimal bumping. Too much large sized comb built too. I did it for a year and hated it.
The ease and convienence of rite cell installation in the frames, the reliability of worker sized cells being built and the black color to easily see eggs and larva make it worth the money to me.
I only use deeps so I can make nucs and place them anywhere in the hive I want, especially in and above the broodnest


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Lauri said:


> I'd do foundationless on shallow frames, not on deeps however. Just too much hassle to wire and they still fracture with minimal bumping. Too much large sized comb built too. I did it for a year and hated it.


 that's unfortunate that it didn't work out for you. I don't worry about large comb, if it's drone it gets moved to 1-2 or 9-10. my established hives have drawn comb this year that is darn near perfect small cell( what ever is natural for my altitude and latitude). I accidentally dropped a full frame of brood about 18 inches down on the nuc and it was fine(I don't wire anything). I keep thinking I'll wire at least my mediums for supers, but then I go and extract my unwired foundationless frames and have 0 blow outs so then again I wonder why bother. I won't convince those that want to continue using foundation, but I want to let those who want to try that it's possible. ( for more info go to my YouTube channel in my signature and look for foundationless video) keep up the good work lauri I love your posts.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks Rod, I may try it again sometime. Just not this year. I tried a half sheet of foundation hanging from the top (I think it shows in one of my photos) But as soon as they get off the foundation they made all large cells. I wanted to try putting the half sheet on the _bottom_ of the frame however, where worker sized cells should be. They could build large cells above that as they naturally do and fill with honey. I'd be OK with that.
Kind of like this. (Without the cell bar on top)








To more mimic the natural broodnest frame. This frame was filled with a sugar, vinegar moistened mix for winter feed. You can see how they prepared the cells for the queen to lay. Yes, they have eggs and some larva in them with sugar on top. But you see the small cells on the center and bottom. Feed naturally on top. That would save me half on my foundation bill and still work good for placement anywhere I wanted.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Lauri said:


> Thanks Rod, I may try it again sometime. Just not this year. I tried a half sheet of foundation hanging from the top (I think it shows in one of my photos) But as soon as they get off the foundation they made all large cells. I wanted to try putting the half sheet on the _bottom_ of the frame however, where worker sized cells should be. They could build large cells above that as they naturally do and fill with honey. I'd be OK with that.


 Lauri
I know you breed a lot of queens and so there for need lots of drones so I don't understand why you worry about where they put the done comb. Do you use the green drone frames and don't want any other in your hive ? ( then again I don't know why they would make a bunch more If they have the green frames)


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't want a lot of frames with drone comb so I can basically do my checkerboarding above the brood nest in the spring. Also, I have no use for drone frames when making mating nucs-or any nuc for that matter. Something I hate is needing a reallly nice frames of comb for hive management and all I have is messy, huge cell junko frames! Having too many large cell frames is like having different sized frames. You're limited to their placemnent.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> I've never even seen a One thousand dollar bill.
> 
> Way to grow Lauri. Nice to see. I hope you aren't neglecting the horses.


Yeah, I put the fresh $1000. bills in a wild supper at Acebirds house and let the bees dry the ink. I know they are safe in there because he never looks in his hives!...(sorry Acebird, just joking.)

My horses, neglected? Well, it depends on if you ask me or the horses. Is there ever enough brushing, scratching, petting and carrots? I love on them several times a day. They always want more.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I know they do and you too, I bet. Only so many hours in a day.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Here are a few pictures of some of my foundationless frames. These have been in a hive exactly a week. I had a hive that was a busting single deep and I checkerboarded foundationless into the original box and a2nd that I added( using the frames removed from original). 









http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y277/rwjedi/foundationless%20frames/20130622_173039_zps89193116.jpg[/IMGl]

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y277/rwjedi/foundationless%20frames/20130622_172928_zps930175c7.jpg


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> (sorry Acebird, just joking.)


I have got more bees then I need and haven't spent a dollar on bees in two years. No need to print money or find a place to hive it.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

My concern is that she's expanding so qiuckly, that perhaps she's spending too much out of pocket rather than using money fron sales. Both bees and much of the equipment are perishable.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

WLC said:


> My concern is that she's expanding so qiuckly, that perhaps she's spending too much out of pocket rather than using money fron sales.


My guess from much reading of her many posts is that Lauri either knows exactly what she is doing OR has the money to spend doing what she evidently is enjoying to the nth degree!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bees maybe perishable, but I wouldn't call her equipment perishable. Unless you define perishable as 50 years. Some how I'm under the impression that Lauri can afford to expand at her own pace.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I have got more bees then I need and haven't spent a dollar on bees in two years.


But parts wear out Acebird. You know that.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

WLC said:


> perhaps she's spending too much out of pocket rather than using money fron sales.


Something I'm sure she's aware of. It's not like she is accidentally spending thousands on bee equipment. If her decision is to expand more than sell, who are we to judge.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that we all know by now that she's producing alot of her own queens, and the bees to support both that operation and alot of nucs.

The bill to make those queens and nucs looks like it's going to be out of pocket.

She's at the 100 hive level so there's well over $10k worth of bees, equipment, and most importantly, labor.

$ell, Lauri, $ell.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Andrew Dewey said:


> I agree with SPECIALKAYME re hive colors - I try to use a different color paint each year - though repainting always begs the question what color should I use!


I took a page out of the NC State apiary a few years ago. The year I build the equipment is the year I paint it. The color I paint it is that year's queen color. Each cycle of color I use a slightly different shade, based on what strikes my fancy at the time (light blue vs. dark blue, or in my area what's referred to as "Carolina Blue" or "Duke Blue"). By looking at the equipment, you can usually get a pretty good idea of how old it is. Which helps you keep track of what equipment is well built and what isn't.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks for all the thoughts. 
Yes, the bees have taken a lot of my money and time. And my caution IS mostly because I well know, the bees are a perishable product. 
But in my 35 years of staying home, being a mom and homemaker-running our small home farm, I've never done anything that such a demand and had such a market for my product. The opportunity to start a flourishing small business is really in the palm of my hand. But I have to continue to enlarge my apiary to meet that demand. 
No one in my area raises locally mated queens. And no one in my area has my genetics. Virtually No one in my area has been able to overwinter hives successfully as I have. This makes me the go to lady for queens and advise. My next step will be seminars. I expect to be mobbed.

I am constantly working up the numbers to figure out what my next move is. I sell my mated queens for $40. each. Here is what you get when you pick up your queen:









(The flash blurred the lower photo, here it is in a clear pic)










This is the actual queen you are getting and a photo of her laying pattern.

I only sell locally at this point. My customers generally only buy one or two queens at a time, and come to my place to pick them up. The queens are usually not banked, so they can look in the mating nuc they came from or I take a few photos of their queen and her laying pattern in the nuc. Queens stay in the nucs until they have capped brood. Customers many times stay at least a half hour or more to ask questions and take a tour. My personalized customer service is a big part of my 'product' .

Yes, I well know too, that in order to actually make any money, I'll have to bank queens and have regular scheduled batches of virgins in/mated queens out of those mating nucs. But for now my pick and choose mated queen occasional sales are helping me learn my management skills, customer service skills and helps my apiary to grow.

Here are a few things I have to consider before I sell a few nucs now to pay for those supplies I just ordered. 

Every nuc that is big enough to sell is big enough to split into two mating nucs. I still have time to raise two more queen in each before fall overwintering prep. Barley enough time and as I have no more drawn frames to supplement the new splits, those nucs will never grow big enough on their own to overwinter.
I'll have to feed and give them frames from other hives to get them to fall prep.
Not saying I will split them. With as many Yellow Jacket queens as I saw this spring, the nucs better stay strong this fall. For every nuc that over winters, I will have more and earlier mated queens to try to meet the spring demand. 
If I sell nucs now, I forfet their use for raising more queens later. Even if I have to feed them, Sugar is the lowest I have ever seen it, It was $15.50 two years ago for C&H cane-25# bag. It is $11.25 today



So do I kill the hen for dinner, or let her live to harvest the eggs? .

Since I do have enough money saved to keep investing moderatly in this project, I will probably keep my stock for now. No, I don't have money coming out my ears. I am thrifty and have no problem doing without now for future benefit. I have worked the last two years very long hours with basically no pay. But this is making ME a marketable product as well. Seems to be worthy of my time and money. And considering our 6 kids are grown and gone. I do have the time to commit to this.
My husband makes a moderate living and I do not have a lot of pressure to bring in money right away. Thanks to him, I can concentrate on quality, not quantity. I don't HAVE to sell my stocks if I choose not to. He calls himself, My 'line of credit' LOL. It is true But if he pays for something for me up front, I always pay him back. It works good for us.



What else am I going to do with my bit of spare money? Buy overpriced gold? I can have 100 hives or a chunk of rock probably smaller than my computer mouse. I choose to invest in my ability, where I have control. A simplistic example, but all in all, it's true.

People have asked me all my life, "Is there anything you can't do?"

And they want me to teach them how to do it. But I have to prove to myself what I teach is 100% correct in it's context. What I will show in the beginning is what I have done myself that has worked well. Not the teach beekeeping gospel as I perceive it. I have years of learning to do. But here is an example of my reasoning:
. 
When you go to the doctor, do you want the new recently graduated person that has all the latest technology and methods, but has no real hands on experience? Or the old very experienced doctor that may be lacking in new advances in medicine? Or do you want the recently graduated Dr. with a few years of experience under his belt? 
I am still new enough to remember the struggles of starting out, experienced enough to help others avoid mistakes and learn management and overwintering methods, but not old enough to be stuck in only the old and perhaps outdated methods of beekeeping. And maybe most importantly, not too burned out to want to share the knowledge.

As I said, I am just going with the flow, but it's time to get a little more serious and organized.
As I said, the demand for earlier spring queens is overwhelming. I need more overwintered nuc to accomplish that demand for queens.

I could also sell the H*** out of honey too. I live right on a highway, people see my hives and stop in daily wanting local honey. It's not something I really want to do, but I could buy from my local supplier and bottle it to sell. I am too busy with my bees and building equipment to get into that quite yet. I am already spread too thin with home and farm responsibilities. But again, there is an obvious demand I could fill when I am ready. When I tell them I don't sell honey, the look crushed. LOL. 
Thanks again for all the thoughts. Your input is appreciated.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

My Goodness! Lauri is now selling "baby pics" with her queens!!! What a hoot! Super Cool Lauri!


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Lauri:

One hint: you're on Beesource. Sales shouldn't be a problem.


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## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

Lauri said:


> Customers many times stay at least a half hour or more to ask questions and take a tour. My personalized customer service is a big part of my 'product' .


This is something very rare in today's market society. I predict success ! :thumbsup:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

That's why I was never interested in honey production. Why on earth would I want to compete against everyone else with the same product and Walmart/Costco with honey for the unaware customer. Developing and marketing a unique product with customer service seemed the way to go. Especially in my short season area where I am limited to what I can produce. I am overwhelmed with the demand. I just hope folks will be patient until I can get larger production underway.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

You mentioned that you're by the highway.

You're also just east of US 5.

We know where that goes.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Lauri said:


> Your input is appreciated.


Just some passing thoughts. Some of it may sound harsh, and it isn't intended to be that way. More constructive (I've been told that's how I write). Like I said, just some passing thoughts, so if you don't like or agree, please just move on.



Lauri said:


> No one in my area raises locally mated queens.


"Locally" is a funny word. I know many in Washington raise locally mated queens. Two off the top of my head that I know personally. And I don't know many from Washington. I'm assuming you have a much smaller subset in mind when you refer to "locally." For me, queens raised on the east coast of NC will perform similarly to queens raised in the piedmont region (about 4 hours away). They usually don't do so well in the mountains of NC though (closer to 6-8 hours away). Washington may be like NC. May not. I don't know. Just found that interesting.



Lauri said:


> And no one in my area has my genetics.


What genetics would that be?

Most breeders keep a hive for three to five years to evaluate her genetics before they graft from them. I don't think you've been keeping bees that long, let alone selecting for breeding characteristics. What sets you apart from them?

I also remember you used to sell Russell genetics. Are you still doing that?



Lauri said:


> I sell my mated queens for $40. each.


I'm in a different mind set than most. This I realize. But I don't think you should be selling your products for more just because you can. I think you (and this is not meant to be for you only Lauri) should sell a quality product for a price that you think is a fair return. If that's $40 or $50 a queen, so be it. To me, I know most in my area, even small time breeders, sell theirs for $20-25. Even large commercial operations with generations of experience sell theirs for not much higher (BeeWeaver has theirs for $28). If I were selling queens, what could I offer that is better than what these commercial operators are doing? My grafting isn't better. My "take" rate isn't either. My genetics are not proven, and don't have a history. I'm not doing much "selection" for the breeders anyway if I have 25-75 hives (Marla Spivak said the MINIMUM number of hives you should have to breed queens is 100, anything less than that creates a genetic bottleneck). If my only selling grace to say that I can sell for 2x the price of some of the bigger guys is to say I'm "down the road", to me that's doing a disservice to the industry. If I charged $40 a queen I would feel like I'm ripping off my customers. Would I pay that if I were the customer? I wouldn't. But I don't live in Washington. So who knows.

I think that mentality is what has destroyed the American economy. It used to be that you could buy a car that could run forever, cheap too. Why? Because innovators like Henry Ford wanted to sell cars, quality cars, not make cash off someone. And he did make cash in the mean time. He could have sold his car for 3x the price he was selling it for, but he didn't. Because he knew what was fair and reasonable. The deviation from this thought process has led to cars today that break at specified mile markers. Plastic parts. And they are more expensive now than they were (inflation protected) when Henry Ford put out his Model-T ($440 each in 1915, which adjusting for inflation makes $11,074 in 2012 dollars. A new camry will run you $22-30k today). You go to Walmart and buy crap products that fall apart for the same price you used to get quality items. Why? Because the market will bear it.

Sorry for the soap box.



Lauri said:


> This is the actual queen you are getting and a photo of her laying pattern.


This is very cool. I think you did a great job on this. Much props!



Lauri said:


> The queens are usually not banked


I would hope not.



Lauri said:


> My personalized customer service is a big part of my 'product' .


Which might be where the value in the higher price comes from. 



Lauri said:


> Yes, I well know too, that in order to actually make any money, I'll have to bank queens and have regular scheduled batches of virgins in/mated queens out of those mating nucs.


I don't think you need to. In order to make true coin you might, but if you time things right you can make plenty of cash doing what you are doing.



Lauri said:


> Every nuc that is big enough to sell is big enough to split into two mating nucs.


Considering that a mating nuc can be comprised of one cup of bees . . . I hope a nuc you sell is big enough to house two mating nucs. I'm assuming that what you mean here is that every nuc you sell is big enough to split?



Lauri said:


> People have asked me all my life, "Is there anything you can't do?"
> 
> And they want me to teach them how to do it.


"I've always had confidence, but I never let my ego get to the point that I think I'm the superstar, because I know that ego has destroyed many a poker career." - Jim Boyd

Again, just passing thoughts. Take what you like, leave the rest. Kinda like a buffet.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

What determines the "limit of too many hives in one location here at home"?

I am just starting beekeeping and am doing it hopes of attaining farm status for my property.

I have have started with 13 nucs and 2 packages.

If I get farm status I will have to sell a minimum $$ (product and/or livestock/yr). Above that it would simply for the $$ towards the expenses.

What drives people to keep so many hives, especially if not on your own property with easy access?? If it is not for the $$ with net income being the driving force what is the advantage of 100 hives over 20? Just curious.

Question for Lauri: Is your yard set up in a fashion that you can get the paper work for your Queens to legally get across the border into Canada? The local CFIA vet said that one needs to get agriculture inspection and then papers are provided...something about Varroa mite numbers etc.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Lauri,

Clearly you are working your way into a niche market. And I think that if people are willing to pay $40 each for your queens then that is a fair price. Seriously. It looks like you are very fastidious about every aspect of what you do, and that does result in a more valuable product. 

So far so good.

Here's my question - will you sell your queens to any yahoo that forks over $40? No matter what your answer is it's a catch-22. If some loudmouthed bee-haver searching for magic bees to make up for his/her lack of skill/knowledge/commitment has poor results with your higher priced queens they can seriously tar your reputation. But If you are selective and only sell to bee keepers with a clue then you might be seen as elitist - which might still be the better position to be in. 

Ultimately if you produce a quality product, and treat people right, and are willing to occasionally eat some loss - maybe even when it isn't your fault - demand will almost surely exceed your supply.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Specialkayme,

So where do I begin:
You can't say and ask all that and then ask me not to respond. I'll comment on a few of your thoughts.

When people tell me none of the local queen producers have queens available and never seem to, and they tell me I am the only one in the area doing this, I assume I am the only real producer actively rearing queens for sale in my area. Who else in Western Wa sells locally raised and mated queens. I know of a few that buy queens for resale, but those queens are from Ca.

No one squeaks about my price. It is a fair price for what they get and a fair price for my time, labor and investment. Yes, if I shipped and filled larger orders and did not have to take any time with customers I could sell them for less. That's not what I do. I charge for my time. If I get $10. more for my queens but spend an hour with a customer. I am getting am making a whopping minimum wage for that hour. You think that is ripping people off? Not supporting small American business is what is ruining this country.
I actually do have queens available a little cheaper than $40.at times. Some perhaps a little smaller than the premiums. People simply don't want them. They want fat Momma. 
My return customers get priority for available queens and everyone wants to be on that list. The sale of a queen generally included answering a few phone calls during the year from customers with questions. I think for $40.00, I am willing to do that and customers are willing to pay. Everyone's happy so far.



If I had ever actually gotten my mated queens from Russell, I would have used them. Since they were never sent, my hopes to use those genetics never happened. That was disappointing, but better in the long run, as I would have built some of my stock from a company that now has a bad rep. 

Some of my genetics are from Glenn apiaries. You know those II Breeder queens are not cheap and now that the Glenns are retired, their II queens are no lonfger available. Some of my price for mated queens reflects that investment. Where else in Wa can you get a Glenn VSH bred daughter? 

I remember you were a BIG supporter of Russell apiaries, criticizing when all of us were complaining about not getting the queens and products we paid for. The fact you find fault or question what I have going on here doesn't really surprise me, but you do have a history of making judgements and posting them for all to read without having all the facts. 

Here is a quote from your post:
"I've always had confidence, but I never let my ego get to the point that I think I'm the superstar, because I know that ego has destroyed many a poker career."

I wish I had an ego. That's part of the problem. I don't care who knows what I do, don't try to impress anyone, I really cherish my privacy. Not good traits if I want to market myself and my products. But comments I have heard my whole life can't be ignored. If people want me, I need to find a way to accomodate. Jim, my husband is the social one in my family and he is a big help in this area...

Some of this may sound harsh, and it isn't intended to be that way. Just explaining my reasoning and correcting your remarks.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

David, I actually AM pretty selective on who gets my queens. But not entirely for the reason of protecting my reputation, although that is a good point.

I talk more people OUT of buying a queen than into buying one it seems. My typical phone call is a panicked voice of a new beekeeper saying "I think I am queenless!"

I tell them the only time you really are sure you are queenless is when you have removed the queen yourself. Then try to explain what can make the hive appear queenless and the possibility of a virgin queen residing in the hive they may have missed in their inspection. I don't want them to spend $40. of their hard earned money and have it waisted and I don't want a nice plump queen I have worked hard to produce get killed immediatly.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

My opinion of 'too many hives' on one yard only reflects the concern of availability of sources for flow/pollen resources.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i think the purpose of lauri's thread was to be an inspiration to beginners and in my opinion it is!

her willingness to share her exploits here has been a big help to me.

she has the advantage of being able to manufacture her own woodenware, has demonstrated that she is a quick study, and has boldly forged her way forward with 'outside the box' thinking.

congrats lauri.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks Squarepeg. Let's get the thread back to a positive note.

Something else people tell me, especially women is: I have inspired them to try things they would have never thought of doing before they saw my posts and photos. That is the best compliment I could ever get. The only reason I share is to do my part to help others the way many have helped me, here on Beesource especially.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Lauri said:


> You think that is ripping people off?


I never said I thought it was. If you think that's what I said, maybe you should re-read my post. I said if _*I*_ charged $40 a queen _*I*_ would feel like _*I'm*_ ripping off customers. Because I know how much time, supplies, and energy it took me to rear them. I know that the hour I spent in the yard talking to them is something I enjoy, and not a chore that I should have to charge extra to my customers for. But if you feel that your price is a fair value for the product you are supplying, so be it. It's your enterprise. After all, that is what I originally said.



Lauri said:


> I actually do have queens available a little cheaper than $40.at times. Some perhape a little smaller than the premiums. People simply don't want them. They want fat Momma.


I may be mis-interpreting this, but are you saying that you occasionally sell smaller queens for less?



Lauri said:


> If I had ever actually gotten my mated queens from Russell, I would have used them. Since they were never sent, my hopes to use those genetics never happened. That was disappointing, but better in the long run, as I would have built some of my stock from a company that now has a bad rep.


You had advertised about two years ago that you were selling queens, they were a Robert Russell Sunkist cross with something else that I don't remember. I believe the post was on craigslist. I remember someone gave you heat about how you were bashing RR, but still found it keen to sell his genetics. I remember after that post, you took down the craigslist ad. At least I think it was craigslist. Could be wrong. 

Are you saying you NEVER had RR genetics? Ever?



Lauri said:


> I remember you were a BIG supporter of Russell apiaries


I was. And I have since corrected my position and apologized. I, and many others, lost more than you can imagine. 

But that isn't the point of this thread. Actually, I think there's about a half a dozen threads going on about that topic.

Some find fault with my posts, lash back and point fingers. That's fine. Whatever makes you satisfied. Others recognize my posts as criticism, something that they can build on (or distinguish). That's fine too. Whatever gets you to your end goal. I really do wish you to succeed. That's the flat out truth. If I didn't, I wouldn't have spent the time to write that post. I've got better things to do than to throw mud for the sake of throwing mud. So if you think that's what it is, mud, just let me know and I'll move on to other things, as I can tell it isn't being helpful or wanted. No worries.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

CajunBee said:


> This is something very rare in today's market society. I predict success ! :thumbsup:


Maybe so CajunBee, but I hope she works that time and expertise into the price. People can demand a lot of time for the cost of one nuc.

I wanna see the photos of Lauri riding her Queens and seeing them laydown until she tells them to get up.  Lauri knows what I mean.

I love to see you growing Lauri. Blossomong.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

The single virgin queen I got from Russell that lived was not any kind of quality I would have grafted from. She did overwinter which I was surprised. But she was eliminated from my stock. 
I never raised or sold anything from his line. I had _hoped_ to when I had originally placed my order for his queens and had mentioned his name in a Craigs list ad,that I _may _ have queens available later in the summer from his line. Those queens never materalized.
You are mistaken about this issue.

To his credit, he did finally send me a refund. 


SpecialKayme quote: "I know that the hour I spent in the yard talking to them is something I enjoy, and not a chore that I should have to charge extra to my customers for."

You do know there is more to rearing queens than this, right? Overwintered hives, equipment, feed, labor, breeding stock, knowledge,etc? How about the reason for this post: I just dropped another $1000, bill on equipment? 
If I could just sweet talk the bees into making mated queens I'd be a rich lady, my back wouldn't be so sore and I wouldn't get my bee sting therapy every day.


Truce then. No mud, no worries.
Chalk it up to mis interpretation in reading text I guess.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks Mark, I have not forgotten about your sample. They are in the works.

Actually, I handle the queens several times just after they are hatched before I place them in the nucs and teach them not to be so runny when they are young. Helps me find them better when they come up to greet me instead of running and hiding. Kind of like the horses when I have a carrot! Hee hee. 
(Just joking, this is not an advertising shpeel)


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm surprised that you haven't taken Susan Cobey's Instrumental Insemination class.

You've got Glenn queens. You're in Washington State where they have the drone sperm (germplasm) repository.

Might be easier than what you're doing.


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## CLICKBANGBANG (Feb 3, 2013)

Lauri, I can't offer you any advice for you. But I did want to say, God bless and good luck. I've enjoyed seeing and reading your post here.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

WLC said:


> I'm surprised that you haven't taken Susan Cobey's Instrumental Insemination class.
> 
> You've got Glenn queens. You're in Washington State where they have the drone sperm (germplasm) repository.
> 
> Might be easier than what you're doing.


That will be next. My husband constructed me a nice clean 'Lab' in the barn. Probably more because he's like me to get my incubator and grafting stuff off the kitchen counter i have not furnished it yet, because I don't know what equipment I'll be wanting.

I had been planning to collect and ship horse semen a few years ago, but OSU quit having the equine reproductive classes when the economy crashed. Horse breeding isn't what it use to be and I'm glad I didn't spent the money to build that lab and collection site. 

I'll be freezing my own drone semen before long too. See if I can continue to improve on the breeding stock. I know Dr, Shepherd is freezing semen, but not sure what the plan is after that. To say he wants to assure the survival of the bees and improve stock is kind of a general statement. I'd like to know exactly what his goals are. Not to copy or compete, but to add to the improvements and positive developments.

The experiments are endless, right up my alley.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thank you CLICKBANGBANG, nice of you to say that. I appreciate it.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Just my two cents on the price of quality queens. I've been dabbling in rearing queens for 3-4 years now, and I'm still working on consistently getting the kind of technical results that I'm satisfied with. Much less genetics.

If you expect to get a top quality open mated queen for $25-$30 dollars AND you believe that people have a right to try to make a decent living you might not understand what all is involved in rearing queens. Even at my amateur level of experience I'm pretty sure that I could sell every queen I can produce for $25 each. Until I starved to death.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, it's time to order the DVD:

http://wsm.wsu.edu/s/we.php?id=319

I've seen a much simpler set up, but both hands aren't free. You'll still need the CO2 equipment and the dissection scope. It's the Latshaw flexible forceps techique.

I also feel that a micropipettor with the right tips can do the job of the injector that they use.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

OSU has lost a lot of good agricultural programs these last ten years. It used to have a cpl of good Bee Programs.


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## DOEBOY (Apr 14, 2012)

Hi Lauri Just thought I woukld interject my 2 cents. By trade I am a lab tech and an electrician (2 full time jobs). Though the years I have noticed a few thing about longevity in a business. Back during the housing boom anyone could make the big buck because so many good people were too busy to take on a new project the lookers had to take on who they could get. A lot of times they were getting the fly by night wantabee handy man at best. As the boom went into a tail spin the contractors who spent their time on the golf course went quickly into default and are now working for the contractors that stayed on the job, insured quality, got their hands dirty, and took the time with the clients. Those contractors that charged a premium for the premium work are still in business and are now getting paid to fix what the wantabees messed up at a premium. My point is charge what you will, include in that price the time you spend on the phone, explainations about why someones hive isn't working, the everyday things you do instead of watching tv and eating bon bons in the hot tub. I charge upper middle pricing to keep me out of the trailor parks and away from the folks that won't pay me. I personally paid $27 for a skinny weak queen that died 2 days later, but I also understand if I want quality I have to pay for it. My first electrician told me when he was quizing me about a low estimate I came up with for a house he had done. He said " if you ain't going to make any money you might as well go fishing". So lauri charge what the market will bear and make a profit because "if you ain't going to make a profit...... ". I personally have enough friends I don't have to buy them and I'm sure you don't either. I love reading your posts and pictures and think you are living my dream. There will always be someone thats going to try to shoot you down to build themselves up it's called projection. Keep posting I'm still learning with 13 hives and growing. I would like to not only read but see your progress but also your set backs. Doeboy


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Wow Doeboy (and others) You really have made my day. Thank you so much for your support.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Your welcome.

Now sell enough to cover your expenses at least.


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

Just wanted to say thank you Lauri. I've been following you on you-tube for awhile. You are a great inspiration. I'm a second year beekeeper from Montana and have aspirations similar to what you have accomplished, and are accomplishing. I'm looking forward to learning more from you. I hope you keep up your good attitude when it comes to sharing your knowledge and experience. There are obviously hundreds if not thousands of places to go to learn about beekeeping but I keep gravitating toward Michael Bush, and Don the Fat Beeman, mostly because of their unselfish attitude to share. I am always willing to pay a premium for a product coming from an artisan who really cares about their craft. And you are definitely an artisan. Let me know when you have your first seminar and start teaching. I'll be first in line. As I approach my 60th birthday I am finding that my patience for "constructive criticism" is waning. Shrug it off and keep up with what's important, your positive attitude. God Bless.


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