# Sub-lethal pesticides in brood combs increase varroa infestation



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I suppose some people need page after page, article after article, and book after book to prove pesticides are not good for bees in the long run. Those same people will require the same evidence to prove these pesticides are bad for humans in the long run. look at how long it took to prove cigarette smoking was bad for everyone, not just the smoker. Yet the industry is still thriving. I feel this issue of using pesticides will follow the same path.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I suppose some people need page after page, article after article, and book after book to prove pesticides are not good for bees in the long run. Those same people will require the same evidence to prove these pesticides are bad for humans in the long run. look at how long it took to prove cigarette smoking was bad for everyone, not just the smoker. Yet the industry is still thriving. I feel this issue of using pesticides will follow the same path.


An unfortunate reality


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Acebird, 
My being a Moderate/conservative, my thoughts are a little on the liberal, no sensible side, of this issue. I believe that you are exactly right in your post. I believe that the nicitinoids with their systemic approach is going to cause mankind many health problems. Probably some that we don't even realize. If the poison can kill anything that eats on the seed and then still grow into the plant and kill anything that eats the produce of the plant, from the fruit or pollen or even the dew created by the plant, then what makes us think it is safe for us to eat anything produced by the plant? Wow, scary!!!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

More symptoms of a much deeper problem. Agriculture went from turning sunshine into food to the present system which is turning oil and petrochemicals into food. Unintended consequences always accompany any action upon the balance of nature. Eventually mother nature will balance the books but as always some species will have great changes in fortune with the results. 

Petrochemical Agriculture was a slippery slope but the aggregate of mankind embraced it, boomed in population and is now dependent: there may be no painless and quick way to back out of this alley. Ah the clarity of hindsight!


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

crofter said:


> More symptoms of a much deeper problem. Agriculture went from turning sunshine into food to the present system which is turning oil and petrochemicals into food. Unintended consequences always accompany any action upon the balance of nature. Eventually mother nature will balance the books but as always some species will have great changes in fortune with the results.
> 
> Petrochemical Agriculture was a slippery slope but the aggregate of mankind embraced it, boomed in population and is now dependent: there may be no painless and quick way to back out of this alley. Ah the clarity of hindsight!


Even in hindsight there are precious few of the profiters that are working to reverse these trends. They're just beefing up their personal protections.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Or as the old farmer at the market said when someone wanted perfect fruit only: "If the bugs won't eat it it cannot be good for you!"

The chemical approach to agriculture is a severe problem. 

I strongly believe one of the problems we have as beekeepers is very little bee forage, since almost all crops now get drenched with herbicides (most likely not mixed to label and sloppily applied to boot) and the roadsides have vanished. I flew over east central Indiana in June, and the ground was brown for mile after mile after mile, relieved only by narrow strips of asphalt and occasional patches of mown lawn. No trees, no bush, no ditches, no weeds, nothing but bare dirt and roads. Hard to imagine how a bee hive could survive in that desert. Corn was late, hence the bare soil, but there is nothing for anything but corn pests in those fields!

Peter


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

psfred said:


> Corn was late, hence the bare soil, but there is nothing for anything but corn pests in those fields!
> 
> Peter


Yeah, now imagine trying to grow your own corn or any other vegetable because you know it is better for you. Those pests head right for your garden. They know where the cream of the crop is. They have made the problem worse. It is a lot harder to grow natural now then it was before but you can still do it.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

Ace Bird Is 100% spot on. 

I believe is the introduction of synthetic Nitrogin is the first domino to fall leading us to where we are today. Synthetic Nitrogin caused many farms to grow Monoculture crops, (needing vast amounts of pesticides), the loss of diversity in/on family farms (think rotatation of crops to prevent depletion of nutrients means one year corn another year beans etc). Tie in GMO monoculture crops, huge yields, which would not normally occur naturally.....there is more to say but I'll leave it at that for now....

Oh yeah and Kudos for the OP posting the data.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

crofter said:


> … Agriculture went from turning sunshine into food to the present system which is turning oil and petrochemicals into food…


Everyone is entitled to express their opinions. Therefore I feel your example of ancient agriculture turning Sunshine into food while modern agriculture does not is disingenuous.  Unlike some on this forum, tomorrow morning I fully expect the Sun to rise in the East. Furthermore, unless Mother Nature drastically changes the mechanism of photosynthesis before dawn CDT, I also fully expect the same laws of photosynthesis to apply tomorrow that applied 100,000 years ago. That means that the Sunshine that produced food for cavemen 50,000 years ago, is the same Sunshine that fed subscribers to Mother Jones today, and is the same Sunshine that will tomorrow produce food for Bayer Corp share holders and employees.  

The only real difference between so called “organic” forms of pesticides and fertilizers or petrochemical versions of the same substances is that instead of using reciently recovered raw sewage sludge, semi composted farm animal dung or pesticides extracted from or produced by living plant organisms to grow or to safeguard food crops, the petrochemical industry uses dinosaur droppings, plesiosaur scales, wooly mammoth dandruff, and ancient ferns that have been composted deep underground, at high pressures, and extreme heat, for millions of years before reintroducing these ancient natural chemicals back into the environment.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

If synthetic / petro based fertilizers were NOT invented, would farmers be able to grow 1,000's acres of monoculture crops year after year on the same plat of land? Probably not. IMHO if farmers, large scale or small still had to rely on organic feritilizer or simply real fertilizer like compost, manure or crop rotation our food sources would be healthier, we would not have the stranglehold of GMO seed producers and there would be less pesticide use and more forage for bees and other pollinators. And most likely the farmers would have a little more control over what they plant,what they earn and what seeds they use.
Anythime a man made ingredient is placed into the ecosystem soup bowl there is change. Not always for the better....

Just an opinion from guy who's family likes to know what they're eating, where it comes from and not be a sheep to big industry.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

So, apparently, some (if not all) of the insecticides/pesticides that are intentionally being applied to honey bees in order to help control parasitic mites, is actually having the opposite effect and several other unintended detrimental affects. I must admit that I'm not too surprised.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

It has been said that Honeybees are one indicator of the health of the environment. Perhaps. Maybe it just shows up sooner than later. It has also been said, "Don't complain about agriculture with food in you mouth." Of course, if you raised it yourself, you may(IMHO) One can not undo with the stroke of a pen what has taken decades to come about. We certainly need to have more stewardship in our approach to the environment. Awareness is a start. O.K., I've taken my "Philosophical" hat off.
Did I gather from the Research that treating for mites with pesticides/insecticides, we, and I say we cause I have in the past, are potentially shooting ourselves in the foot? Humph, wonder where they got the idea for that? Seems like up until now, research was looking for a new substance to kill mites but safe for bees. I'm sure it still will. Knowledge and reasons change like the seasons. 
I wonder who offers the grant money?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Scrapfe,
Tell your friends because that was a mouthful of dong. There are those of us who know better.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

woodguyrob said:


> Just an opinion from guy who's family likes to know what they're eating, where it comes from and not be a sheep to big industry.


You will always be a sheep to big industry unless you grow your own. If you start out a small farmer you will eventually become part of big industry because it is the only way to limit the risk. The only thing that stands in the way of big industry is seed sharers. They can't bring you into court because you are not selling what you grow.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Acebird said:


> .... If you start out a small farmer you will eventually become part of big industry because it is the only way to limit the risk.......


Hogwash. It's statements like these that make it hard for actual small-scale organic famers to not come across as just more armchair "experts" or kooks. 

That you are ignorant of the existance of small-scale growers using eco-friendly or organic methods that have been operating outside the wash of "big industry" doesn't mean they do not exist in large numbers. I know of many of these operations here in Maine and I knew many more from the many years I lived in NY. Buying fruits, vegetables, meat or dairy from these producers does not make one a "sheep to big industry." In fact, it has the complete opposite effect.

There are small farms that have been operating for many years in and around Utica. One should really should try to become a bit knowledgable about small-scale agricuture, particularly right in one's own backyard.

Or not. 

Wayne


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

waynesgarden said:


> There are small farms that have been operating for many years in and around Utica. One should really should try to become a bit knowledgable about small-scale agricuture, particularly right in one's own backyard.
> 
> Or not.
> 
> Wayne


I hate to tell you how many small farms have disappeared in this area. We have been looking for over two years. All that is left is a few acres around the original farm house with dilapidated barns that are barely standing. Those that are surviving are co-ops or in some way are selling to the big packers. This area was predominately dairy farms and even with the ridiculous subsidies to produce cows milk they are going under.

Have you heard of Chobani yogurt? Big boost to central and western NY in danger of moving out! They can't get enough milk to supply their factory. Unbelievable in central NY.

So if you know so much about this area let me know where all these farms are. We want one. And not one that has been monoculture for the last 50 years.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Lots of hand wringing about turning back the clock and being "natural" again, but very often once a chain of events has been set in motion it is virtually impossible to turn it around. Beside the fact that petro anything appears to have long term availability issues there is an attached lack of resiliency in food chains that are not based on synergistic give and take. Continuously adaptive competitive and defensive mechanims are an essential part of all organic life. Man has acquired the ability to synthesize compounds whose actions nature has not had eons of opportunity to evolve with. We have no way of knowing other than educated (and often biased) opinions about what will play out when we introduce them. Many times the have an apparent short term benefit but long term burden that is unliveable. Remember DDT? Thalidomide? Freon?

This really is pretty well established stuff unless your source of income requires denial. The problem is that our present economy of globalization has broken down many natural geographic barriers to the spread of non adapted organisms. Mans cleverness finds treatments then for the resulting inconvenience and almost invariably creates more layers of complexity to deal with. We are like the "Old lady who swallowed the fly"

Perhaps as suggested I am being "disingenuous" but I think much of the demand to now insist on strictly natural treatment of new developments is very much utopian wishful thinking. Pandora"s Box has been opened. Just give a think to how much of man's creativity would have to be undone to restore natures own protective mechanisms. The action needed is going to be hard to sell. 

Continuing down the present path seems doomed for various reasons but I predict that nothing short of eco calamity will motivate enough to reverse direction.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Scrapfe said:


> The only real difference between so called “organic” forms of pesticides and fertilizers or petrochemical versions of the same substances is that instead of using reciently recovered raw sewage sludge, semi composted farm animal dung or pesticides extracted from or produced by living plant organisms to grow or to safeguard food crops, the petrochemical industry uses dinosaur droppings, plesiosaur scales, wooly mammoth dandruff, and ancient ferns that have been composted deep underground, at high pressures, and extreme heat, for millions of years before reintroducing these ancient natural chemicals back into the environment.


There are chemicals, and there are chemicals. Try pouring a batch of stinky raw manure on a garden plot. Try pouring a load of crude oil on a neighboring plot. Think it's the same thing? :no:


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Of course it's not. 
The chemical VS agriculture, vs ,,,VS,,,,Vs,,, HORSE has been ,,,,,,,,,addressed on other threads. Seems to me we/you should be concerned about what treating your bees is doing to them, the wax, and the/all end products. Question, why are we just now seeing research in the area? Seems not very long ago, research was/telling us,, chemicals are necessary/good if you want your bees to survive.
Hey, I'll stir the pot. Do you think that the chemical companies fund research to support the sales of their products?
Do you think that Phds and Grad students aren't looking for money to subsidize their real interests, but have to get a paycheck to live and support their families. I mean no offense. Just a look at reality. Been around it a bit. There is a whole population of "newbies" every year that keep the "chemical Machine" going. I know,cause, I was one. 
Let me put my goggles on so I don't get anything in my eyes.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

We buy in, not to survive, but to prosper. Let's face it - without grad school, chemists might have to teach high school, or run a welding route, or something. Live close to the bone. Intensively farm a quarter-acre, make their own clothes, not to mention pizzas. Can't have that. Talk about short-sighted: We had all the wake-up we (should have) needed re fuel self-sufficiency in 1973. The reason it's on bigger agendas now is that people who grew up then, and thought about it but went off to "prosper", are having second thoughts, and are now in positions of more power.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Complicated isn't it?
Draw a line in the sand. One you can live with, and do the best you can. Make changes when and where you can. Tell others. Vote!
Educate yourself and don't buy into everything that comes along. Find out what works for others and see if it will work for you. I am the Master of mistakes.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

BTW KF
Nothing was directed at you. Just using you comments as a springboard of sorts. thanks for the reply.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The original post was directed to one organism, specifically varroa but the same process of designated demon developing resistance is showing up in many other examples including drug resistant human health bugs. 

We are most likely statistically fighting a losing battle but the question is how do we reverse the momentum of support for this way of dealing with disease and pests. Unquestionably there is huge vested interest in maintaining status quo. Just as certainly there would be great _initial_ financial and health costs if we did decide to bite the bullet and quit cold turkey. 

I wonder if we really could go back to the good old ways: the global scope of goods and disease transfer interferes with local systems ability to adapt. Without geographical isolation it is almost impossible, or at least greatly complicates the possibility of achieving or maintaining spontaneous resistance; the need to simultaneously and quickly develop resistance to numerous and changing threats is a tall order. Our activities sure have complicated the game for the bees as well as ourselves.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

It is possible, that, sooner or later there will no longer be a choice, after all, there is only so much crude oil.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

*"Please, sir, I want some more."*


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## borderbeeman (Dec 16, 2010)

There is a very deep relationship between pesticide use and industrial farming monocultures. Farmers used to rotate crops because the pests which fed on corn were not the same pests that fed on potatoes or alfalfa. In a crop rotation system the pests never get a chance to 'go critical' because the farmer keeps switching the game every season. Also, in the original farming systems - there was a huge degree of biodiversity of crops, insects and insect predators - as there still is today in countries like India - where they apparently grow over a thousand varieties of rice. If you have lots of birds, ladybugs, lacewings and so on living around the fields- there is a constant predator-pressure on pests which achieves a certain balance. 

In a monocultural system, such as the American corn crop - where corn is planted year after year after year on the same land - the pest's hear the dinner bell ringing year after year and they just keep coming. So the farmer blasts them with insecticides, which wipe out 99% of the pests - but also 99% of the insect predators, - along with the birds, the bats etc whose food source disappears. Unfortunately, the 1% or even 0.1% of pests that survive - are resistant - so the next generation is 99% resistant to the pesticide - and you are in a chemical arms race until one side (humans) runs out of options. At which point - biological armageddon ensues. In 2010 America planted 92 million acres of corn - almost all of it treated with the neonic Clothianidin - which is lethal to honeybees which gather corn pollen - as apparently they do in regions with extensive corn planting. Clothianidin is not only lethal to honebees, it persists in some soils for up to 19 years (halflife), which means there will still be a quarter of it left after 57 years. But of course, if the farmer plants Clothianidin treated corn EVERY year - the build-up of neonics in soil and water will be fantastic. In effect, 92 million acres of America will be permanently poisonous to bees, insects, earthworms, beetles, bugs, ladybugs, lacewings and butterflies. Isn't there something wrong with a system that could even contemplate doing that to the American environment> 

There is a very famous Indian scientist called Vandana Shiva - who has been writing and lecturing about the issue for many years. She points out that since the 'Green Revolution' was imposed on India by the West - over 200,000 Indian farmers have committed suicide - usually by drinking pesticides sold tothem by the same corporations who ended up owning their land. The story is not widely known in the West - but its a cautionary tale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq6jpkDNxtI&feature=player_embedded

Vandana Shiva has set up a national organisation in India to promote biodiversity, sustainable farming and to defend small farmer's rights.

Worth a look.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

borderbeeman:

Have you read, "The World According to Monsanto" by the French journalist Marie-Monique Robin?

By the way, the paper in your original post is about how chemicals that beekeepers put into their hives (coumaphos/Checkmite and fluvalinate/Apistan, Maverik) affect their bees.

You don't have to blame all of agriculture if most of the pesticide residues in beehives are SELF INFLICTED.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm considering the formic-acid mite treatment if I need one. At least it's is a naturally occurring compound. Maybe I should just find some suicidal ants that would troop in and simply _exude_.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> ... If you start out a small farmer you will eventually become part of big industry because it is the only way to limit the risk...


Everyone who is opposed to modern agriculture should be forced to visit the Horn of Africa and while there explain to the small farmers how very very lucky they are to be tied to the land and endure a never ending progression of drought, flood, famine, plague, and crop failure. This while watching the children they love die in front of their eyes. Some of us must think that this is an up lifting experience. If you truly believe small African farmers are happy because every decade or so they watch their children die, then while you are over there renounce you American Citizenship and trade lives, and lively hoods with a local resident. I bet there will be hundreds willing to trade with you. I find it abhorrent that anyone could even think of making such a thing more likely by revolting against modernity. But I guess that if one is an Industrial Revolution counter revolutionary, or else a counter revolutionary to the Green Revolution, then one can watch anything if it helps their "cause." Furthermore, it has been my long running experience that since the advent of BT corn, cotton, soybeans and other GE crops that the use of most chemical pesticides has declined to the point of almost disappearing.

Norman Borlaug is a 1970 Nobel Peace Prize laureate and the man who started the “Green Revolution,” check Borlaug out below. The Green Revolution for those who don’t know, is not about Global Climate Change or who invented the Internet, but about feeding the Earth’s population. Toward that end men and women like Borlaug have helped nations like India increase their wheat production an amazing 2000% in the last 45 years. They have done this despite being attacked by the Ned Luddite fringe. Think what good would happen if the Luddite fringe got with the program?

http://reason.com/archives/2000/04/01/billions-served-norman-borlaug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIvNopv9Pa8


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

There is no argument that M Frazier and others data analysis of brood comb contamination show that for the top 3 out of 4 chemicals found in brood comb in volume is from self contamination from miticides applied by well meaning beekeepers. 

An why would that bee a surprise that trace amounts brought in by workers could never accumulate to as high of levels as miticides like coumaphos, fluvalinate, amitraz and other home made miticides purposely dumped into hives? 

Honey bees bring in nanogram quantities from the field while beekeepers dump grams of substance into hives in one application.

Really folks, in the upper midwest the majority of honey is produced from basswood and sweet clover and other wild plants, like when was the last time you saw a farmer spraying those nectar sources? Unless you do commercial pollination, farm pesticides are one of your least concerns.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm sorry. Really. 
I do not have a problem with modern agriculture per say. It is not perfect. But it, we the U.S., have certainly fed millions of starving folks throughout the world in times of crisis for years because of it. Perhaps at the expense of our own. Who has a clear a certain answer? I visit this forum because I wish to learn and to try to assist those that wish to learn and not make the mistakes I have made, and share what works for me in an honest and unpretentious way ref. BEEKEEPING. I do not wish to sound un caring, nor un aware. I see these images on commercials and CNN, MSNBC, and the like. I do my share. Maybe I misunderstood your post. I'm just uncomfortable with it.


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## Corvair68 (May 10, 2011)

I just watched a movie called "Vanishing of the Bees" on Netflix. It is an excellent documentary about CCD, and the sub lethal pesticides. I found it to be very eye opening. If you haven't seen it you should. If sub lethal pesticides are affecting the bees, then how long will it be before they start affecting us and our children... assuming they aren't already. If you live in Africa your kids may get eaten by a lion too... We don't live in Africa. Pests have existed longer than humans, and we were still able to find food.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

THIS particular tragedy could be remedied by population control coupled with a fairer sharing of what we already have. It's horrifying that a whole Ethiopian family could probably live out of one US compost pile.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC said:


> borderbeeman:
> 
> You don't have to blame all of agriculture if most of the pesticide residues in beehives are SELF INFLICTED.


That is not true for those of us who are not using these chemicals. Isn't that the gist of this thread that we use too many chemicals that are ineffective in the long run?

Is it not agriculture that is polluting public drinking water supplies? Is it not the reason that farming has been banned in and around the watershed areas in Upstate NY because it supplies drinking water for YOU, a citizen of the big Apple? Yeah, that's right farms closed down forever so the big Apple can have safe drinking water. But if it is drinking water for Upstate these farms are perfectly safe. Do you think it would be the same if we were making the laws instead of downstate?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Acebird:

I don't treat my hives (with the exception of some initial lemongrass oil/Crisco).

I've seen the stone walls of the old dutch farms. I hunt and fish by upstate reservoirs. I also have an NYC watershed permit.

You're preaching to the choir. What we need to worry about is Hydrofracking, and not farming.

PS-last I recall, our NYC forefathers purchased the watershed lands to secure a clean water supply. We own the land.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC said:


> Acebird:
> 
> You're preaching to the choir. What we need to worry about is Hydrofracking, and not farming.
> 
> PS-last I recall, our NYC forefathers purchased the watershed lands to secure a clean water supply. We own the land.


You got that right. If it weren't for NYC we would have Hydorfracking everywhere instead we will have it everywhere it doesn't affect the NYC drinking water. The deals were already made years ago. The signs people put on their lawns is just venting and will end up being just more pollution. NYS is doomed by a future catastrophe much more dangerous than old nuclear power plants.

You forefathers may have purchased the tiny bit of land surrounding the reservoirs and some tributaries but the farms that are now banned from farming (due to runoff) are not owned by you or them they are private lands. Their only hope of being productive again is for windmills and hunting camps (for guess who).


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Corvair68 said:


> I just watched a movie called "Vanishing of the Bees" on Netflix. It is an excellent documentary about CCD, and the sub lethal pesticides. I found it to be very eye opening.


...except that there was barely a mention that some beekeepers put chemicals in the hives (the vast majority do...the commercial beekeepers featured most of all). Dave Mendes (the "hero" of the film...the one that was crying about his bees) has been selling diseased nucs to beginning beekeepers....I don't see him crying over that.

deknow


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Acebird said:


> ... NYS is doomed by a future catastrophe much more dangerous than old nuclear power plants.
> 
> You forefathers may have purchased the tiny bit of land surrounding the reservoirs and some tributaries but the farms that are now banned from farming (due to runoff) are not owned by you or them they are private lands. Their only hope of being productive again is for windmills and hunting camps (for guess who).


Sounds like the canned-food and firepower lobby.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

deknow said:


> ... Dave Mendes (the "hero" of the film...the one that was crying about his bees) has been selling diseased nucs to beginning beekeepers....I don't see him crying over that.
> 
> deknow


WHAT???? I got my nucs from a RI apiarist, who swore that although his bees were trucked from FL they were all of his own raising. Several of the frames (very dark, dirty ones) were branded "Mendes" - is this the same Mendes? Of the 3 people I know who got pairs of nucs from this beek, ALL OF US have had at least one weak, sick hive (see 'metallic blue drones' thread). And when more knowledgeable local beeks asked where I got my nucs, they cringed when I told them, and got "that look". Does anybody know more about this RI beek? I hesitate to use his name because if he's _not_ skeevy, I don't want to ruin his reputation. But if you know of him, please let me know!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...if the beek in question is Everett Zurlinden (Beehavin' Apiaries), then yes to all of your questions.

Everett was the 2011 president of EAS....buying diseased nucs and selling them to new beekeepers from Dave Mendes (the current president of the American Beekeeping Federation). So here is the money (and disease) trail....the presidents of the national and regional beekeeping organizations (that we are all supposed to be good little beekeepers and support) are producing, wholesaling, and retailing diseased bees to new beekeepers. There couldn't be anything worse for the industry and for new beekeepers. This is criminal (at best).

Dave knows these nucs are diseased (as he has refunded money to his resellers in the past for unsaleable nucs). Everett ought to know better...but perhaps he doesn't. He gave terrible advice at the Massachusetts Field Day (that you should check for progress in a walk away split 10-12 days after making it up...this is about the only time you shouldn't check on progress of a walk away split). This guy should be selling Fuller brushes door to door.


Keep in touch (http://BeeUntoOthers.com/), as we are just getting started figuring out what the appropriate action is to take in this matter....you should be compensated...you were cheated.

If you (and your friends that also got these nucs) have not spoken to the state apiarist, please call him (Al Carl)...PM me if you need his number/email. These nucs must be inspected and tracked. Please email or PM me when these nucs come down with AFB (notice I didn't say "if")....please contact me before you burn/destory/irradiate ....we need to get samples and some longer term data.

deknow


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

KelpticFest said:


> Sounds like the canned-food and firepower lobby.
> 
> ... Several of the frames (very dark, dirty ones) were branded "Mendes" - is this the same Mendes?


Not so funny when a bomb gets dumped on your palace is it?


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Not so funny when a bomb gets dumped on your palace is it?


Nobody said it's funny. Should I limber up my street sweeper?


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

deknow said:


> ...if the beek in question is Everett Zurlinden (Beehavin' Apiaries), then yes to all of your questions.
> 
> Everett was the 2011 president of EAS....buying diseased nucs and selling them to new beekeepers from Dave Mendes (the current president of the American Beekeeping Federation). So here is the money (and disease) trail....the presidents of the national and regional beekeeping organizations (that we are all supposed to be good little beekeepers and support) are producing, wholesaling, and retailing diseased bees to new beekeepers. There couldn't be anything worse for the industry and for new beekeepers. This is criminal (at best).
> 
> ...



_::::GULP::::_ Any more first-hand knowledge out there? I sent the text of these e-mails to the person who furnished the recommendation. It's my understanding that the problem is quite new, so maybe it's a glitch, or we don't know the full story.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...the problem is not new with Dave's operation. I believe this was the first year that Everett sold these nucs (I don't know)....but any reputable business person in his position would be contacting all customers and working to make things right....I'm not aware of this happening. I'm assuming from your posts that you have not been contacted by Everett...he certainly knows about the issue now.

The following is an email I got in response to an inquiry. The person writing lives in a state that adjoins Massachusetts.
Posted with permission of the author



> Last year, I, along with two other beekeepers, purchased 400 nucs from Dave Mendes in Florida. I took over 200 and resold most of them. There were a number of them that had AFB and poor queens. Most of them were very agressive. I destroyed and burned the ones with AFB and requeened the ones with bad queens. I kept six for myself and none even made it to late fall. I can't speak for the other beekeepers who bought the remaining nucs, but I cringe inside when I meet someone who bought nucs from me last year. Needless to say, I didn't repeat that mistake, I got an additional load of packages from Wilbanks this spring. Never a problem with them. To Mendes' credit, He did credit me for the unsalable nucs, but I wonder how many got away undetected. Many Beekeepers don't recognise the signs of AFB. Asd for inspection programs, we are in serious budget problems here in -- and have heard rumblings of possible closing of our inspection program. Best of luck and please keep me informed.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Wilbanks seems to have good press. However, I'd prefer nucs bred and raised more locally, if possible. I'll need only a few (2 probably!) - do you have anyone you could recommend in MA? PM me if youo don't want to shout out about it.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...the problem with nucs is that you are buying someone elses' comb. If it from a large operation, you are likely getting the comb that the producer would cull (I think Dave claims to rotate all his comb every 3 years....which is what your comb is).

I've had rather good luck with packages from Rossman, purchased from Warm Colors Apiary. I'd change to local queens by mid season. Source from Mike Palmer or from us (we only supply virgins).



deknow


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## frostygoat (Jun 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> Is it not agriculture that is polluting public drinking water supplies?


In general, not as badly as cosmopolitan pollution. Recent studies find most of the bad crap in the water supply comes from urban pesticides like weed and feed and all the prescription drugs that we pee out or flush down the toilet.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't have any numbers but obviously the more people the more pollution. When you have a lot of people like New York you have pavement and concrete no lawns to feed or poison. In the areas where you have few people but a lot of livestock you have aces and acres of soil that gets treated with pesticides and chemical fertilizers all going directly into the ground and leaching into the local water supplies including wells. Although it is not a good idea to pollute the oceans much of New York's pee goes there and so does everyone else's on a public sewer system up river. Those on septic tanks not so much.
But I do agree the backwash of prescription drugs is a huge problem that will only get worse. There is no way for it to get better as long as taking pills is considered healthy.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

Vanishing of the Bees is a poorly made rag of a movie. The producer Maryam Heinen spent time with many beekeepers including myself and willingly chose to go with the the Bayer Neonics are killing the bees fantasy that by now has been disproven many times over. 

We have a lot of data now on the Bayer chemicals in fact the latest Bee Culture has some up to date research that clearly shows these materials are just not showing up in levels high enough to kill any bees. 

CCD was and will remain a Colony Co-Mingling Disease that's a risk if you do almonds.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Bud Dingler said:


> Vanishing of the Bees is a poorly made rag of a movie. The producer Maryam Heinen spent time with many beekeepers including myself and willingly chose to go with the the Bayer Neonics are killing the bees fantasy that by now has been disproven many times over.
> 
> We have a lot of data now on the Bayer chemicals in fact the latest Bee Culture has some up to date research that clearly shows these materials are just not showing up in levels high enough to kill any bees.
> 
> CCD was and will remain a Colony Co-Mingling Disease that's a risk if you do almonds.


Really?, who are you to declare "mystery solved" on CCD?


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Was really really hoping this thread would die slow and painfully. The comments on agriculture....maybe all of us who produce your food, while maintaining an off farm job to feed our family, should close up shop. Then y'all can import your beef from brazil, your fruit from some third world country, grain from Russia, and pototes from Africa. Or we can buy from countries who believe in feeding their population first and sell the left overs. Oh but what happens when they have a shortage? Or when we tick of a country who supplies us our food?
Food prices will rise beyond what we can pay, we will be at the mercy of countries who want to make money on our hunger. 
Did i forget to mention, these countries do not have the quality controls or the quality of product that we do?

Y'all forget there are people who are in ag on this forum and you are so stuck in your little world to remember there are people who work dang hard so you have food in the store.

By the way, milk does not come from a carton, brown cows do not make chocolate milk, and flour just does not majically appear in a bag.

Stop feeding the nation, and we will become a third world country ourselves.

Think! The next time you want to blame agriculture, take a hard look at the waste from cities, the roundup a back yard gardener uses, the pesticides they use. Usually they are of the mantra, "if a cup works two will be better". A true hard working ag farmer knows where the bucks are to be made...and it is not over use out the back end of a sprayer


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Tons of grain rotting on the ground, vats of milk poured out rather than passing it on - and look at the dumpster of the average grocery store. We export incredible amounts of food, and have diverted a whacking good portion of a _food crop_ to make pseudo-gasoline. We're a ways from starving to death. There should be a middle ground.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

Honeyshack-sorry if this thread hits a sore spot. I don't know what you grow or how you grow it so i'll say this is not a stab at you and your livelihood. No one wants any farmer / family to close up shop. 

Food producers (if they want my business) need to produce good food, nutritious food. Not pretty food. It Maybe hard in this day and age for food producers to change because the big co's like Monsanto have a lock on seed, pesticides and synthetic fertilizer use and certain methods of farming have taken hold. 

The reality is there is too much crap in our food system. GMO seeds included. I include the factory poultry, beef, pork producers/ industry in this as well. As time goes on more and more people are going to buy their food from local farmers and food producers who don't use growth hormones, heavy antibiotics, feed lots, battery cages, pesticides etc etc. 

FYI, I'm not stuck in my own little world.....we'll yes maybe I am. Here in Ct. we buy local beef from Jonathan at New Brooklyn Beef , organic produce from Wayne's organic along with numerous other growers at farmers markets, fresh unpasteurized milk at the willomantic coop or Baldwin Brook Farm. And we have a great garden and chickens that supply us with lots of food. 

_"By the way, milk does not come from a carton, brown cows do not make chocolate milk, and flour just does not majically appear in a bag_". Cute line thanks for clearing up that whole where does chocolate milk come from question. 

I agree that joe homeowner also plays a part in this.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

honeyshack said:


> Was really really hoping this thread would die slow and painfully.
> 
> Y'all forget there are people who are in ag on this forum and you are so stuck in your little world to remember there are people who work dang hard so you have food in the store.
> 
> By the way, milk does not come from a carton, brown cows do not make chocolate milk, and flour just does not majically appear in a bag.


Feel better now? You're not posting to a bunch of morons. There are beekeepers like myself on this forum who keep hives on CSA and other farms as a courtesy to help in their plight. You would get your point across much more effectively without your infantile insults. 
If you don't like this thread, I suggest you don't read it instead of wishing it would die slow and painfully.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Charlie, might want to read the first three pages, full of insults to the ag industry.

And do i feel better....no....cause i work dang hard to produce an amazing product...and so do all my friend in the ag world. And to read the insults hurled at us as an industry is horrid


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I am sorry to say that a lot of people on this thread, God forbid, will die a slow death due to starvation if a extreme natural (Yellowstone super volcanic explosion/New Madrid earthquake) or man made disaster occurs in this nation. They are too urbanized for their own good and are too far removed from the family farm to know where their food comes from. Let Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans be a warning and a lesson should disaster then famine strike say New York City and the rest of the nation. The honey bees around central park will survive regardless of miticides in the wax, if the then starving inhabitants do not eat them first! Where will you urbanites go?? Us poor simple country folk that farm for a living and live off the land will just use you for fertilizer after you try and steal our last tomato. So count your blessings that you live in a country that has bountiful harvests and you can take food for granted. People in Somalia do not have that opportunity. Pray that the above scenerio never, ever, happens, because if it does, you will trade every ounce of gold in the world for a loaf of bread.... Someone that farms for a living-Ted Kretschmann


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ted:

Aren't we being a little dramatic? I live in NYC, and I know where my food comes from. All over the world.

Now I didn't slam agriculture. Did I?

Besides, the thread is supposed to be about how beekeepers are responsible for most of the pesticides that end up in their hives.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

WLC, I always learn alot from your post, and no you did not slam agriculture. My posting was Dramatic yes, but for a reason. We in this country take too many things for granted. And yes beekeepers must use common sense in useage of chems in their colonies. I state that as an IPM beek that rotates from year to year a different chem to control mites. We use the soft chems any more, as things like comophous are just too hard on the bees.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Honeyshack you hit the nail on the head, good post.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Food producers (if they want my business) need to produce good food, nutritious food. Not pretty food.


Woodguyrob you hit the nail on the head. All of our posts that have been taken as insults is really a plea to the hard working farmers that produce food. We know they work hard, most of have gardens and some of us have livestock so we know what the farmer is up against on a very micro scale. We use the term big Ag because it is a corporate image that we know will not listen to our plea. It is like expecting something from Washington. Our only hope is that we can bend the ear of a small hard working farmer who hasn't yet put the noose around his neck.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Among the list of things I have learned by age 50:
1. Never comment about a woman being pregnant unless you are actually in the delivery room with her.
2. Never get into debates with people who use words like big, large or giant as though they are interchangeable with cuss words.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Let me clear up my intentions with my post #4. I have farmed all my life. I fully agree with Ted & Honeyshack! It is not the farmer that is to blame. All farmers operate on a very thin profit margin. If they don't use the herbicides and pesticides that are available to them they can't stay competive. The farmer doesn't have but very little control over what he recieves for the fruits of his labor. There are many years when farmers actually have to take funds out of their hard earned savings or borrow more to put out next years crop. They are fighting the weather (anyone got any idea what is causing so many droughts or floods?), the insects ( which are added to every year by the global eco-system that means what is on the African or other continent will be here tomorrow), the filth ( which means johnson grass, pig weed, ragweed, horseweed, and many, many others that have been introduced by people that only see the advantage for themselves without regards for what they might cause in agriculture). I could go on, and on with this. If you folks think for one second that your natural or organic farmers can feed the world, then you must have been one of the ones that are going to the polls to vote for the idiots that we have in our goverment. For therein lies the problems. The chemical companys, and many others have deep pockets and are in control of our elected and appointed officials. The only hope for this great country is for us to wake up out of our own little world and inform ourselves without already predjudiced opinions about what is going on. We the people that are posting here, (the working class people are the only ones paying taxes now). But as others have said, I know how to live off the land, and I will eat, and yes I will use chemicals, WISELY, to grow what I need.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> All farmers operate on a very thin profit margin. If they don't use the herbicides and pesticides that are available to them they can't stay competive.


So yes, in a free market society the consumer is at fault. I agree your hands are tied and the noose is around your neck. Not everyone is in your shoes though. There are those of us who will pay a premium for untainted food. Yes, still competitive because the big boys see the big profits and add to the competition. They see something in it that apparently you don't.



> If you folks think for one second that your natural or organic farmers can feed the world, then you must have been one of the ones that are going to the polls to vote for the idiots that we have in our goverment. For therein lies the problems.


I don't agree with this because it has been proven many times it doesn't mater who you vote for or who wins the vote. What goes to Washington are not representatives, they are in it for themselves and act accordingly.
If you look at the people who control the countries that experience starvation you will see that they are fat, not lacking any food. Even in times of natural disasters where help is provided the food doesn't get to where it needs to be. In many cases starvation is a man made problem that has nothing to do with the worlds food SUPPLY.



> The chemical companys, and many others have deep pockets and are in control of our elected and appointed officials.


Exactly, So why sleep with them? You have the ability to change who your master is.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Acebird, I really do not think you get it. Have you heard what is in the news for the last 6-8 months...all the stories of rising food prices? All the complaints by our people who see the price is too high already? Those that are willing to pay the price of "natural or organic" are very few compared to the general population.

And yes in a free market society our hands are tied. We do not get to ask what price we want for our product. Ag is a commodity, the price is dictated to us by the world market. 
I have more to say....but you know what....it will just fall on deaf ears


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Acebird, how about some suggestions addressing the changing of your "master"?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

....try value added products. Sell pickles not fresh cukes. If you can't get a good price for honey make Mead.__
no one dictates what you grow and what you charge for what you sell.
If you see your product as a commodity and sell it as such then you are at the mercy of the world market....if you differentiate, freeze,pickle,process,target specific markets you are outside this world market. Not easy by any means....might require a large investment and a few lean years while you develop...,but if someone else can make a living purchasing your product and making something else out of it, you can undercut their price and make a profit....if you are willing to do more than "farm"....you have to manufacture, market, and deal with non commodity customers.
Not easy. Not simple. Not cheap...but what is?
deknow


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## Jim Koenig (Dec 18, 2009)

Thanks for posting the article, I found it very informative and helpful.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Deknow is right, the country has to get back to the four things that made it strong,--Mining, Manufactoring, FARMING and producing goods for sale to our neighbors and everyone else in the world. Because I was a big beekeeper, I joined a very old Cooperative, so my honey could be bottled or used in industrial usage. I produce too much honey to be effective selling to mom and pop's stores. BUT you the smaller beeks, if you produce a clean product, can and DO a good job selling and filling that void. But as stated earlier in the thread, you must be careful with the chems that you use. You must know what, when, where and how much to use safely, with the public safety in mind. Thus you must rotate some of your brood combs out every three to four years. While I do not know what problems D. Mendes has in his operation, I do know that rotation of combs is a good thing and keeps a multitude of problems down. TED


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> I do not know what problems D. Mendes has in his operation, I do know that rotation of combs is a good thing and keeps a multitude of problems down. TED


 ...a good thing unless the contaminated combs are "rotated" into nucs sold to new beeks by the leaders of national and regional associations.
Deknow


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Did anyone actually read the artical that was cited in the original post? And by _read_, I mean get past the summary and conclusions presented up front (actually look at the data). 

The "contaminated" comb that was tested had a maximum concentraton of coumaphos of 21.1 ppm and a maximum concentration of fluvalinate of 24.35 ppm, among others. Hardly "Sub-Leathal", more like accutely toxic. Either way, it's bad for bees. 

Great job by the authors of the paper! :applause: They just proved that high levels of pesticides, if not directly leathal to bees, weakens the bees so that varroa can take over. It's a circular argument, i.e., I just proved that toxic levels of pesticides are, wait for it........... _*Harmful to bees.*_ I dont think anyone on this forum would question that, without the benefit of the paper. How many of our hives (forum participants) are contaminated at the levels found in the paper??

I just hope my tax dollars didnt go into funding this crapola.


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## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

Nabber86 said:


> I just hope my tax dollars didnt go into funding this crapola.


Of course they did. I work at a grad school and am a grad student-- I am not in the sciences, but I associate quite closely with some of the "hard" departments that are thriving-- all of the sciences, while the humanities are dwindling to nothing because we can not write studies that prove what we already know and get paid for it.



Rick 1456 said:


> Of course it's not.
> Hey, I'll stir the pot. Do you think that the chemical companies fund research to support the sales of their products?
> Do you think that Phds and Grad students aren't looking for money to subsidize their real interests, but have to get a paycheck to live and support their families. I mean no offense. Just a look at reality.


Bingo. That's why our culture of science is such a joke. The scientists are getting paid by somebody. Many of the studies that you see in peer-reviewed science journals are, indeed, sponsored by a grant from some large industry. You can say that doesn't influence your results until you're blue in the face, but us academics know and have seen first hand how easy it is to fake research. I won't even mention some of the things I have seen in big unis-- it is common, and those are the ways that keep schools in the top tiers of "research," getting the big money to fund their departments.

So that's why I have in the past, and now, laugh aloud when someone starts asking for "research" and "studies" regarding something-- while I am, as much as anyone, a child of the Industrial age, especially as regards science, most of the "science" we produce these days is brought to you by the companies that profit from the "science." And you don't survive long in academia if you're willing to be "honest--" good luck getting more funding. Remember what happened to Galileo!

And education is suffering, too, make no doubt about it-- I know of some people who only have their jobs because they can do this kind of research.... You have no idea what these people do (i.e. to whom they sell their souls) to get and maintain tenure. These kind of studies are making sure the authors get tenure. 'Nuff said by me.

Meanwhile, I grow most of my own food and raise chickens and bees and am attempting to get out of this supposed 'urbanite' culture some people seem to think beekeepers (?) are in. Unfortunately, big agriculture has made our population and our expectations explode. Backing out of this is a hard, long task. And our culture has made it very difficult-- all of our norms point us to the route of "independence" through the world feeding you.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

AT The levels you are talking about, the honey from those hives should not EVER go to market. I know what the Sioux honey ass labs levels for these substances are. And it is not in parts per million but parts per billion. TED


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks Kazzandra, for confirming what I've known for a long time. Even educated people will not bite the hand that feeds them. If you want the truth you have to listen to the voice of experience, and/or exercise common sense. I personally have been on the wrong end of decisions that were made because I erred on the side of right. Same thing goes for the level of contamination in the comb. If the facts were known completely about many of the products that we purchase for human consumption there would be a good portion that would not be allowed to be sold.

Barry, 
How was my post any more political than Acebirds?


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Deknow is right, the country has to get back to the four things that made it strong,--Mining, Manufactoring, FARMING and producing goods for sale to our neighbors and everyone else in the world... TED


Mining: Like mountaintop removal?
Manufacturing: Like pulp and paper?
Farming: Like ArcherDanielsMidland?

There are right and wrong ways to do all of these things. We seem to have embraced too much of the wrong and need to make corrections. While BIG may not always be bad, it is also not always good. Middle road, folks - and Middle Road is frequently to be reached only if smallholders revolt.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

Has anyone noticed the major agricultural players, food producers etc are either offering new lines of organic, pasture raised or non hormone treated products or simply buying organic companies??? Perdue for one. THAT should speak volumes. Who ever wants to stick their head in the sand that's fine with me. No one is blasting you good honest farmers or how you do your job. [What] do you call companies like Monsanto, Cargill.....little guys? they are big business...huge business and they don't care what crap they produce as long as they make huge profits. 

And kind gents who are producing food for this great nation of ours. If [things get bad], the food you're growing 100 miles away will mean nothing to me and everything to your neighbors and surrounding community.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

BEES4U said:


> Acebird, how about some suggestions addressing the changing of your "master"?


For one go after local state reps when the government wants to limit(control) what food can be produced which inturn limits your ability to diversefy the products you sell and produce.

For example here in ct. the powers that be wanted to make it illegal to purchase fresh unpasteurized milk. We sent letters to our state reps, voiced our opinion...end result unpasteurized milk is legal and available for those who want to buy it. Now...it's interesting that if you don't get to the food co-op in time they are often sold out. The FARMER who is producing that milk has a choice based on his or her specific situation. Contract with Agrimark or cabot or sell his own product. That's one example. I can list numerous pasture raised beef farms within 20 miles another option. How about fighting to get a product like Hemp legalized for seed and fiber production? Easy to grow many many uses but I bet the cotton industry will lobby against it....because it's competition. It's all about the money.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

honeyshack said:


> Acebird, I really do not think you get it. Have you heard what is in the news for the last 6-8 months...all the stories of rising food prices? All the complaints by our people who see the price is too high already? Those that are willing to pay the price of "natural or organic" are very few compared to the general population.


Those few that are willing to pay for natural and organic food have calculated the true costs of eating it. The real problem is people equate food to be all the same and only use appearance and price to make their choice. They just don't know any better.

Think about what is raising food prices in an economy that is depressed and getting worse? Oil, the same thing that has made all prices increase. In a depression prices should fall because people are willing to work for less. Why isn't it happening? Wages are going down. Fringe benefits are being eliminated.

We are trying to say what we think is better for bees (in the long run), what we think is better for humans (in the long run)? Less chemicals, less oil, and more diversity in planting food but you know it is falling on deaf ears.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BEES4U said:


> Acebird, how about some suggestions addressing the changing of your "master"?


I think some have already made suggestions. All I can add is to ween yourself off from the master that has a noose around your neck to something that you have control of. It is not like you don't have the skill and dedication to farm. You may have to relearn some of the old ways that didn't use the present methods.
I guess each individual will be a different case but do you see what your doing now sustainable for the future? Do you think you will be better off in the future or worse. You don't have to answer it is just something to think about.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Some on this thread are dreaming that a few can feed the many! Dream on, I like your thoughts, a world without harsh chemicals, without big oil, a world where we all grow our own food, or some organic, or even semi organic farms grows enough for the world. I sincerely like your dreams. But they are dreams! In the real world dreams don't come true. Too often nightmares do!


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

woodguyrob said:


> Has anyone noticed the major agricultural players, food producers etc are either offering new lines of organic, pasture raised or non hormone treated products or simply buying organic companies??? .


I've noticed, and I don't trust 'em an inch. The regulations on "organic" are, I believe, voluntary, and who's checking them anyway? If they can package the same old crap and sell it for three times the price, it's a small risk to take. And what kind of penalties are there, when operations sickening hundreds or thousands are allowed to just "voluntarily" recall their product, and any regulatory agencies are having their teeth pulled? I'll bet there are major production changes whenever they take over otherwise reputable "organic" companies.

But *I'm* not opinionated ....


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm sticking with pond gunk fertilizer, with a dash of potash and epsom salts to balance the excess nitrogen. And for my bees, well I'll just have to see.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Dont bag on big science too much. The vast majority of it is good. Scientists have to get paid, not necessarily "paid off". The consumers of science need to read the papers (not just the abstract) carefully and decide for themselves if it is worthwhile or not. Hopefully before they go on an internet forum and start making unbased comments.

I learned a bit form the sub-leathal pesticide paper that was posted. I have always heard about this contaminated comb problem, but never knew what levels of pesticides were being talked about. Here is Table 1 from the paper if anyone wants to review: http://www.plosone.org/article/slid...RI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0014720.t001

All I can say is that is a lot of pesticide (a lot - now _that_ is real scientific term). No wonder they were having problems. One contaminated sample of brood comb supposedly came from a colony that suffered CCD. That leads me to conclude that high levels of pesticides can, in some cases, lead to CCD. But again I ask, how typical are the levels of pesticides reported in the paper? Are not the two pesticides that were found at the highest levels (coumaphos and fluvalinate) common miticides that are applied to hives? If that is the case, the hive problems (CCD in one apparent instance) were self inflicted. It's not like the bees were out foraging and brought the levels of contamination shown in the paper home to their brood comb. Sure I guess that the whole world is contaminated, but seriously how much coumaphos and fluvalinate are present an _my_ hives if I never applied these compounds? Surely no where near the levels reported in the paper, if detectable at all. 

If you are to the _green_ of center (Ace, I'm talking about you), you could project this out to an extreme conclusion and claim that a paper such as this _proves_ that _any_ level of pesticide no matter how small, is the cause of all of the worlds' bee problems. Moderation is the key.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Kelp, mining, manufactoring, Farming and production of goods made this country great. A service industrial orientated country is not going to survive. And this one is not. I do not agree with mountain mining but we have to have coal.........We have to have a home based mining industry producing the materials needed for manufactoring and thus the production of goods for sale to the rest of the world. Something we are not doing right now....And the people doing all this have to eat, thus farming which beekeeping is an integral part of has to be strong. Thus if it takes farming corporations to feed the multitude so be it. Otherwise, you can do what I posted earlier-you can starve. O.K>It is just that simple. TED


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

Lets hope the regs don't get manipulated Kelpticfest...needless to say we're not buying from the big boys no matter what they call them selves or claim to be ...we like giving our money to the locals!

I'm opinionated too...but I will listen to other opinions, may not agree but I'll listen and think on it.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Kelp, mining, manufactoring, Farming and production of goods made this country great. A service industrial orientated country is not going to survive. And this one is not. I do not agree with mountain mining but we have to have coal.........We have to have a home based mining industry producing the materials needed for manufactoring and thus the production of goods for sale to the rest of the world. Something we are not doing right now....And the people doing all this have to eat, thus farming which beekeeping is an integral part of has to be strong. Thus if it takes farming corporations to feed the multitude so be it. Otherwise, you can do what I posted earlier-you can starve. O.K>It is just that simple. TED


The Good Old Days never were, y'know. People died of diphtheria and tetanus and food poisoning while the great factories were rising. They're dying of tuberculosis and food poisoning again now that we've created resistant bugs. PS - If you're editing your spelling, it's "manufact_*u*_ring".


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

woodguyrob said:


> Lets hope the regs don't get manipulated Kelpticfest...
> I'm opinionated too...


1. Too late.

2. But I'm _*not*_...


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Gypsi said:


> I'm sticking with pond gunk fertilizer, with a dash of potash and epsom salts to balance the excess nitrogen. And for my bees, well I'll just have to see.


Does it work? How long have you been using this? And how confident are you that the pond from which you secure your gunk is out of the pollution loop? Sounds like a good idea, if I can get the stuff up out of my pond.


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## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

Nabber86 said:


> Dont bag on big science too much. The vast majority of it is good. Scientists have to get paid, not necessarily "paid off".


Ach, ja, but I'm just speaking from what I know. I was a research assistant before I was a teacher. Never did anything like I saw some of the tenured people do. Never plan on gunning for tenure myself. Much worse at the bigger unis, as you might suppose.



Nabber86 said:


> If that is the case, the hive problems (CCD in one apparent instance) were self inflicted. It's not like the bees were out foraging and brought the levels of contamination shown in the paper home to their brood comb.


Which just proves what Deknow was saying about _Vanishing of the Bees._ I remember being very conflicted as I watched that, even without knowing much about the beeks they showed us. I kept thinking, "You're crying, but you're trucking your bees from FL, to CA, to someplace in the Northeast, back to FL again, and you're not expecting major losses? You're probably applying who-knows-what just to keep them doing what they do, and you act like you're the victim?" I know the Egyptians trucked bees on the Nile, but that's nothing like a semi full of bees going all over the place all the time to contaminated orchards. It's not like us beekeepers don't have a way to control what goes in our hives. Sure, we're all getting some environmental contamination, but I don't think that's going to cause CCD.



KelpticFest said:


> I've noticed, and I don't trust 'em an inch. The regulations on "organic" are, I believe, voluntary, and who's checking them anyway?


 Probably off-topic, but this whole thread is now... 
I have a friend who is very much into the "buy organic" movement. We were looking at a bag of tortilla chips she had bought. Organic. Quite expensive and chic. And they did not label where the corn was from. In fact, it said, something like "Certified by the _International_ Organic Association." Who, may I ask, is checking the corn in Mexico to make sure it is organic? What a waste of money and time, and a good example of the organic industry doing the same ol' thing under a different name. And people just assume that organic means 'good for you.'


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

CCD is caused by a virus and a fungus that seperately will not kill colonies of bees. But when the two interact together--it is Katy bar the door and goodbye bees!! TED


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Kazzandra said:


> Ach, ja, but I'm just speaking from what I know. I was a research assistant before I was a teacher. Never did anything like I saw some of the tenured people do. Never plan on gunning for tenure myself. Much worse at the bigger unis, as you might suppose.
> 
> 
> Which just proves what Deknow was saying about _Vanishing of the Bees._ I remember being very conflicted as I watched that, even without knowing much about the beeks they showed us. I kept thinking, "You're crying, but you're trucking your bees from FL, to CA, to someplace in the Northeast, back to FL again, and you're not expecting major losses? You're probably applying who-knows-what just to keep them doing what they do, and you act like you're the victim?" I know the Egyptians trucked bees on the Nile, but that's nothing like a semi full of bees going all over the place all the time to contaminated orchards. It's not like us beekeepers don't have a way to control what goes in our hives. Sure, we're all getting some environmental contamination, but I don't think that's going to cause CCD.
> ...


I used to buy a yam at the grocery store, plant it in the garden, and it would sprout and grow and make more yams. Last couple of years they didn't grow. So this year I bought an organic yam. It didn't grow either. They are irradiating them or something....


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

frostygoat said:


> ... Recent studies find most of the bad crap in the water supply comes from urban pesticides [&] the prescription drugs that we... flush down the toilet.


I think I read somewhere that caffeine was not metabolized by the human body but is passed out in its original state. Now guess which American city has the highest background caffeine concentration in its drinking water. 

If you guessed New Orleans then you get the cigar. Now how does that make New Orleans the big easy? :scratch:


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

KelpticFest said:


> The Good Old Days never were... People died of diphtheria and tetanus and food poisoning...


In his book “War of the World” English author Niall Furguson listed the obits from the Times of London for the week of September 4th through the 11th 1901. They included:
Small Pox.…………….….........7
Measles.…………………........13
Scarlet Fever..……………....14
Diphtheria..………………......20
Whooping Cough....………..27 
Enteric Fever….……….......17
Diarrhea & Dysentery.....271 
Cholera..………………...........4

In a few weeks this will be 110 years ago. I don’t know how others posting on this forum feel about these numbers, but to me they look like another boiler explosion on a Green German Organic farm.

Yep, the good old days never were..... any good. But think god though they are gone. let's keep it that way.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Gypsi said:


> I used to buy a yam at the grocery store... and it would sprout... Last couple of years they didn't grow. So this year I bought an organic yam. It didn't grow either. They are irradiating them or something....


Welcome to the age of DHLS. Pretty soon the meddling classes will require you to treat your honey so it will be rendered hypo-glycemic.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Kazzandra said:


> And people just assume that organic means 'good for you.'


And some people believe it is not.

For me, I believe organic is BETTER for you. It comes under scrutiny that non organic does not. Most chemicals are limited, GMO is outlawed. ANY system of control will have loop holes and offenders. I don't know why someone would be so suspicious about Organic certification and then at the same time put their faith in humongous chemical companies and Monsanto. To me that is twisted logic.
Regulations are not voluntary. Turn your farm into organic and see what it takes to get that certification.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Gypsi said:


> I used to buy a yam at the grocery store, plant it in the garden, and it would sprout and grow and make more yams. Last couple of years they didn't grow. So this year I bought an organic yam. It didn't grow either. They are irradiating them or something....


So is it organic? No. Identify the place you purchased it, country of origin and broadcast it. Make the store you bought it from aware of what you did and the negative advertisement you are going to give them about these potatoes. The store could have easily put the wrong potatoes into the organic bin unless the package was labeled Organic from such and such. The best inspector is the consumer. Don't give that up.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Bird, 
Once again you don't get it. I've seen no one on here on the side of the big chemical companys. Most of us live in a real world though, where unless you buy organic directly from the seller and know exactly what his version of organic is, you very well may be getting real organic. Certifications are a dime a dozen if you know someone in the right position. Let me give you a shocker, around my neck of the wood where we have a large Amish community scattered all over the county, there have been reports that they use human waste for fertilizer. Some folks won't buy from because of this. Good luck Bird when you age maybe you will figure it all out as several others on here have!


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Acebird said:


> And some people believe it is not.
> 
> ... I don't know why someone would be so suspicious about Organic certification and then at the same time put their faith in humongous chemical companies and Monsanto. Regulations are not voluntary. Turn your farm into organic and see what it takes to get that certification.


1. I don't put any faith in Monsanto either. That's why I prefer local folks and my own garden.

2. Certification is a problem only _*if you go about it in the correct manner*_. Do you believe that everything with an "organic" stamp on it really is? So you put an organic claim on your product, but do it the same old dirty way. The only producer likely to get slammed for that is the small one - do you really think a regulatory agency is going to check up on, let alone penalize, Monsanto or something Monsanto owns? Dream on.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Acebird said:


> So is it organic? No. Identify the place you purchased it, country of origin and broadcast it. Make the store you bought it from aware of what you did and the negative advertisement you are going to give them about these potatoes. The store could have easily put the wrong potatoes into the organic bin unless the package was labeled Organic from such and such. The best inspector is the consumer. Don't give that up.


Good strategy. I buy organic potatoes from Whole Foods rather than pay the exorbitant prices from seed-potato vendors ($16/lb!). Usually it works well, but this year they were hard to find, and didn't grow well at all. The best growth was from the itty-bitties I missed in last year's harvest.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Val, 
I can tell you are a great thinker.:scratch:


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

valleyman said:


> Bird,
> ...around my neck of the wood where we have a large Amish community scattered all over the county, there have been reports that they use human waste for fertilizer. ...QUOTE]
> 
> So is the implication that such practices are NOT organic? Or just that it puts you off? There is a pretty big, if under-the-radar, humanure movement in the country (pun intended).


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

KelpticFest said:


> Good strategy. I buy organic potatoes from Whole Foods rather than pay the exorbitant prices from seed-potato vendors ($16/lb!). Usually it works well, but this year they were hard to find, and didn't grow well at all. The best growth was from the itty-bitties I missed in last year's harvest.


I encourage you to do the same thing ...
We bought the seed potatoes (16/lb) and potatoes from our local grocery store (Hannaford) for an experiment. Both grew well and taste awesome. And because they are organic we are eating the itty-bitties we missed from last year. And now we have even more itty-bitties.

Why do you think Monsanto is so threatened by organics? It cuts them out. It is one of the costs that an organic farmer doesn't incur every year. It is perfectly understandable why they are so against it. I do get it. I am not sure you all get it though.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

When it's harvest time, I let the chickens into the potato patch. They don't like potatoes at all but love the loose dirt. They dig up every harvestable-sized potato and leave it carefully undamaged on the surface.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

There are organic treatments for varroa: essential oils.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Which ones actually work?

And - is there a source for *organic* formic acid? (There's a reason ants are named _Formica_...)


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

There's a laundry list of essential oils that are claimed to help mitigate varroa. I believe spearmint is the one that's usually recommended because it's considered to be a food grade additive.

I/we use lemongrass oil often. But, I can't confirm the effectiveness of essential oils.

Organic formic acid? Hmmm....

I've read posts where someone keeps hives near ants because it provides them with some defense against pests.

I've also read somewhere (I don't recall), where it was claimed that the formic acid that ants (that were in a hive, but I don't recall what they were doing there) produced helped to keep varroa at bay.

I'd have to dig to see if there's an organic (natural) source of formic (or oxalic) acid.


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

WLC said:


> I/we use lemongrass oil often. But, I can't confirm the effectiveness of essential oils.





> I'd have to dig to see if there's an organic (natural) source of formic (or oxalic) acid.


For oxalic acid I can just dump some sorrel or rhubarb leaves in the blender and make an extraction, then dry it out. And there are already a few ants in the hives - I've left them alone for this very reason. But if mites get a foothold I might need a more intensive treatment.

Re spearmint and lemongrass - I had heard that they were bee-gentlers, rather than miticides. I asked about spearmint specifically, but got no replies. I've been dabbing a drop or two of both on the sleeves of my bee gloves - if they do work as gentlers then I don't dare stop using them.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"We use Apiguard and that is an essential oil but the treatment free folks have a cow even if you use that."

Well, let's just call ourselves 'Environmentally Responsible Beekeepers'.

I don't think that a small cadre of beekeepers has a right to coopt 'the whole thing' by using the term 'treatment free'.

Ted, keep doing what you're doing. IPM is the new 'Green'.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Bird, 
Absolutely to the thinker, in terms of common sense, learned from the school of hard knocks. Something I don't think you have acquired the art of as yet. 

Fest, 
Pun understood, both sides.

Ted,
Amen to your post #107

WLC, 
Right on the button.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

acebird said:


> why do you think monsanto is so threatened by organics? It cuts them out. It is one of the costs that an organic farmer doesn't incur every year. It is perfectly understandable why they are so against it. I do get it. I am not sure you all get it though.


bingo!


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

From an interview with Peter Ward, paleontologist:
""My view of life on Earth is that it's a huge board game, and every species has but one goal: to take over the planet. And every species that could, would, if it got the chance. So we're just doing what evolution has pounded into us: Produce as many of yourselves as you can. *Make sure that, as you produce, you aren't threatened in your production* and co-opt all the planet's resources. Kill any competitors, and spread to every place that you possibly can. We're doing all of that. We get the prize, ironically, because of the brains that we have. "

There you have it. We're too good at what we do, and not smart enough to avoid the consequences. 

Whole interview at http://http://www.alternet.org/stor...le_lot_more?akid=7401.233723.ucI7KJ&rd=1&t=21


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

112 post update: Raise your hand if your opinion has been changed about sub lethal pesticide dosage and, oh yeah, add humongous to my list of adjectives in post #62


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## Leah Grear (Mar 25, 2012)

I've just become a new beekeeper and had heard about this guy Everett's bad nucs and Dave Mendes; and yet Mr. Zurlinden is the first on the list for suppliers on the Rhode Island Bee Keeper Association website. Was any more discovered about this ?



deknow said:


> ...if the beek in question is Everett Zurlinden (Beehavin' Apiaries), then yes to all of your questions.
> 
> Everett was the 2011 president of EAS....buying diseased nucs and selling them to new beekeepers from Dave Mendes (the current president of the American Beekeeping Federation). So here is the money (and disease) trail....the presidents of the national and regional beekeeping organizations (that we are all supposed to be good little beekeepers and support) are producing, wholesaling, and retailing diseased bees to new beekeepers. There couldn't be anything worse for the industry and for new beekeepers. This is criminal (at best).
> 
> ...


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## KelpticFest (Apr 19, 2011)

Leah Grear said:


> I've just become a new beekeeper and had heard about this guy Everett's bad nucs and Dave Mendes; and yet Mr. Zurlinden is the first on the list for suppliers on the Rhode Island Bee Keeper Association website. Was any more discovered about this ?


It seems that opinions regarding Zurlinden have been ameliorated somewhat. Apparently Ken Warchol has about 10 of the nucs referred to and hasn't registered any systematic problems, at least not publicly. I have 2 of them (1 good, 1 abysmal); 2 friends have 2 each (no complaints). Last year samples were taken of the dirtiest of the dirty combs from my bad hive. I AM STILL WAITING FOR THE RESULTS FROM THAT, FOLKS! (hint hint) At least PM me to let me know what was found. If there is AFB there, it was suppressed by medication and hasn't emerged yet. I would guess that last year's nucs from that apiary were probably very varied in quality. I got mine elsewhere this year.


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