# Will a Swarm Occupy an Empty Langstroth?



## Mike Brown (Dec 11, 2017)

Greetings! This is my first post on the forum. I've been watching it for a while and I love it.

I searched for an answer to this but was not able to find one (but my "searching" skills may be faulty!).

Do you more experienced folks think that a feral swarm would go into and occupy on open and available Langstroth?

I'll tell you why I ask.

I've bought 26 acres in a rural area of East Alabama where I plan to retire, but that is still a couple years away. I am not there every day (to move a swarm from a trap into a nuc or hive) and would not consider dropping a package into a hive when I am not there every day to get them onto their feet. I was thinking of just putting a nice brood box down there to see if I could get lucky!

Again, love the forum and forgive me if this has already been answered.

Big Mike Brown


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource, Mike!


Yes, bee swarms ( from either an 'unmanaged' hive or a managed hive) _may_ move into an available Lang box, or any other suitable space for that matter.

You may be able to improve the odds of them moving into _your_ equipment by following the suggestions in this Thomas Seeley document: Bait Hives for Honey Bees

At a minimum, if you are not there to check on the box regularly, be sure to have frames in the box. If you choose not to put foundation in those frames, at least use a 'comb guide' at the top of the frame. You might wish to consider using a partial foundation style a la _Lauri_ ... 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...of-foundation-in-deep-frames-experiment/page2

A reason not to use full frames of foundation is that swarm scouts may not see the space as attractive as a completely open area inside the box. The partial foundation is a _compromise_ between what the beekeeper wants and what the scout bees want.

.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

Graham gives good advise. :thumbsup: The only thing I might add is that you may want to check it from time to time to see if wasps or ants have taken up residence there before the bees arrive.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

welcome aboard mike!

regular langstroth equipment is what i've been using for my swarm traps, either a single 10 frame deep or two five frame deeps stacked one over the other.

it helps alot i you can acquire at least one frame of drawn brood comb, and it is wise to treat it with bt aizawai first to prevent wax moths from destroying in.

i'll put that drawn frame in the middle of the 10 frame box and flank it on both sides with foundationless frames available from kelley's bee supply. with the 5 over 5 boxes i'll do the same in the top box only and leave the bottom box empty but add frames to that bottom box no more than a week after a swarm is caught.

it also helps to use a lure such as 'swarm commander' or lemongrass oil as it will attract scout bees looking for a cavity.

good luck with your trapping!


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Welcome!

I put out a couple 8 frame deep hives each year for catching swarms. 

Including drawn comb makes it easier for you after bees occupy the hive, especially when you go several days between checks, (bees can make a real mess with cross combs, and setting it right sets them back). Empty brood comb WILL be effective in drawing scout bees if they are in your area. The risk is also drawing wax moths, so I spray the combs with xantari to kill wax moth larvae -and it works.

Scout bees respond to smells of the hive while they are searching. Brood comb is a strong attractant. Chemical swarm lures can be helpful as well. Swarm commander will help, or, you can make your own swarm lure from lemongrass oil. Add more swarm lure regularly and check inside the box periodically to make sure something else hasn't moved in.

Watch odfrank on youtube, I don't know of anyone as successful at catching swarms in empty hives.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

great minds think alike lee.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Do you more experienced folks think that a feral swarm would go into and occupy on open and available Langstroth?

Yes they sure will, I get one or two every year. Especially if it is old and covered with wax and propolis. As has been advised, it should not be empty but contain combs or frames so that they do not build wild comb in it. I once caught a swarm into an open box with no frames or cover. These are a few of my videos of swarms moving into equipment awaiting renovation. 



[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09WK8Xb96ZA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpEH61fSbWI[/URL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvR0ybmcs1A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3zB61HDtXs


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## Mike Brown (Dec 11, 2017)

All,

Thank you all so much! This is extremely helpful. I'm going to try this then and not use a conventional trap. Wish me luck. I'll drop a couple frames of drawn comb in plus foundationless frames as per your suggestion, and will watch it as closely as possible. Having a lot of room in there scares me a little bit (about them making a dang mess), but I'll try to keep an eye peeled.

I'm going to enjoy this forum....


Big Mike


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

with the foundationless frames it's very important to have the hive leveled perfectly from left to right so the comb is drawn out down the center of the frame.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Welcome to Bee Source. A lot of good swarm catching info from everyone. Good luck with swarms and with your bees.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> great minds think alike lee.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Boxes like this coated with propolis and burr comb make ideal bait hives. I make instant "old" boxes" with new boxes by putting some propolis/wax scrapings inside the box and chasing them around with my heat gun. A drop of LGO into this slurry is a nice touch also.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

This is "too much" lure on a five frame bait hive and Warre bait hive. I used both LGO and Swarm Commander Lure and had several that came but would not enter.


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## 220 (Dec 28, 2016)

I am far from an expert, have only been keeping bees 12 months and only caught my first swarm a few weeks back.
Im down under so spent all our winter reading what I could on bees and trapping. I built some hive traps and went with 8 frame deep size, put them out early spring and didnt catch anything until December. When I did it was in the trap I thought least likely, a 5 frame nuc (to small) entrance to big (full width 1/2" high) and I forgot to bait it with LGO.
I have 10 traps spread around the farm, there is a 8 frame trap within 200y of the successful trap yet the bees thought the smaller one was their best option. 
With no real evidence I am starting to think location might be more important than the other trap details we worry about. Not knowing the location of feral hives getting as many traps out as possible should give the greatest chance of success.
Next year I will look at placing extra traps in the areas that are successful for me this year.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

220,

Get the membership roster with addresses from your local bee club and set traps accordingly. You’ll have plenty of bees in no time!:thumbsup:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

That roster is the primary reason Charlie serves on his club's Board of Directors. No Newbee in San Francisco is safe from his trapline!




Charlie B said:


> 220,
> 
> Get the membership roster with addresses from your local bee club and set traps accordingly. You?ll have plenty of bees in no time!


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## 220 (Dec 28, 2016)

Charlie B said:


> 220,
> 
> Get the membership roster with addresses from your local bee club and set traps accordingly. You’ll have plenty of bees in no time!:thumbsup:


:applause: that would certainly increase the success rate.

My nearest club is 60 miles away and a vastly different climate 2000 feet lower in elevation, 23" annual rainfall against 40"+, 20 nights below freezing against over 60. At this stage I am concentrating on trying to catch local truly feral swarms. 
Apart from my own hives the nearest hives to the west are 1.5 miles away, to the north there is a site that sees bees placed about 5 miles away in summer with none to the east or south that I am aware of within 5 miles.
Should mean what I catch will be my own bees or truly self sustaining feral colonies. I did do a cut out last summer from a tree stump within 200y of where I caught the swarm. Neigbours boundary fence is only a few hundred yards further on and when the were over for a BBQ earlier in the week reported a strong honey smell in a couple of locations around their farm that will certainly be worth investigating


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## oldsap (May 1, 2016)

I take the propolis bits from cleaning up frames and boxes, dissolve in a jar of isopropyl alcohol. Then you can use it to paint the inside of the bait hive. Once the alcohol evaporates it will smell like any other beehive.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I’ve reserved my oldest deep boxes for swarm traps and reuse them. Once I lure a swarm, I just transfer the frames into another box. I’ve found they much prefer deeps over mediums. They always choose a deep even over two mediums.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

So you are saying that Oliver's bees are picky?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Our competition this summer between one of Charlie's deep boxes versus my five frame antique was held deep down in a dark redwood forest and Charlie almost wet his pants when scouts after months of waiting, finally appeared at the entrance of his deep box. The next day they were more interested in mine but in the end neither of us was victorious. We will try again this spring, may the best Mastor Baitor win.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

The last pic was me trying to scare off the scouts on Oliver’s trap. (After a few beverages).


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Charlie B said:


> The last pic was me trying to scare off the scouts on Oliver’s trap. (After a few beverages).


I just figured you were on your way to a shotgun wedding...


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

Charlie B said:


> The last pic was me trying to scare off the scouts on Oliver’s trap. (After a few beverages).


I thought maybe you was going to test to see if you could save labor on make those round entrance holes with slugs. :applause:


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## 220 (Dec 28, 2016)

What size shot do you use on bees?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I wonder why Charlie has the shotgun aimed at his own baithive? Oh yeah, he said "after a few beverages". My antique nuc box saved by a few fancy beers, Charlie only drinks the expensive stuff.


Charlie B said:


> The last pic was me trying to scare off the scouts on Oliver’s trap. (After a few beverages).


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

220 said:


> What size shot do you use on bees?


BB sized shot, duh.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Only on scouts interested in Ollie’s bait hives and then, just warning shots coupled with a little spray mist of this stuff:


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## Mike Brown (Dec 11, 2017)

I?ve seen some indication that the bait deep should be empty, some that 3 or 4 frames of drawn comb is better and even some that say fill er up with frames. Is there a consensus on that?


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I say fill er up! I’ve tried to skimp on frames in the past so I’d have enough to go around. In a vain attempt one year to compete with Ollie I set a plethora of traps placing 4 to 5 frames in each and filling in the rest with starter strip frames. The full traps filled up almost immediately. Slow going on the half full ones. I trapped around 20 that year and Ollie over 50 cause you know, he’s got 47 years of beekeeping experience, just ask him!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

So what did Oliver place in his traps since he out trapped you by nearly 150%? Or was it that he was using larger and prettier equipment? Seriously though, success rate is important and anything that increases the likelyhood that the scouts will choose your box over the hollow tree in the woods is a good thing. Last year I had no drawn comb to put in a trap. Still got one on a piece of foundation. How would you rate the different frame options for swarm traps/bait hives. Keep in mind wax moths are a big problem here in the south.

Mike, what equipment do you have at your disposal? Doesn't help for us to be talking about filling it with drawn comb if you don't have any.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I use as many drawn black combs as I can allot per bait hive. And I have good success in all sizes of boxes, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, and occasionally a 12. I fill any space with foundation. A BIG mistake is too much lure. A few drops ONCE.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

You guys may remember I lured one of Oliver’s swarms in 2016 with only two drops of Swarm Commander.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I wonder about the law of diminishing returns on the frames. How many is enough that the next one doesn't increase the odds measurably? True about the attractant. 2 drops LGO. One around the entrance, one smeared on the top bars of the center frames. I use a Qtip and then leave it in the bottom of the trap. Just as an experiment, I am going to bait one with lemon pledge. Not cheaper but just curious.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

JW, I know you’re from the South and all but Lemon Pledge? Really? 

I’m currently working on a secret formula using propolis, LGO and Swarm Commander. I’m coming after Ollie again this year!


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## Mike Brown (Dec 11, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> So what did Oliver place in his traps since he out trapped you by nearly 150%? Or was it that he was using larger and prettier equipment? Seriously though, success rate is important and anything that increases the likelyhood that the scouts will choose your box over the hollow tree in the woods is a good thing. Last year I had no drawn comb to put in a trap. Still got one on a piece of foundation. How would you rate the different frame options for swarm traps/bait hives. Keep in mind wax moths are a big problem here in the south.
> 
> Mike, what equipment do you have at your disposal? Doesn't help for us to be talking about filling it with drawn comb if you don't have any.


I have just two hives in Georgia (two deeps each) and I’m not keen on taking any frames from them this spring. Will still try the bait hive thing on my AL property if I can have a reasonable chance with new frames though


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)




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## VaJim (Apr 10, 2010)

I've been thinking of the same question...I have 2 Langstroth hives that I loss the bees this winter. One had been occupied since 2010 while the other was a first year swarm. I've cleaned both up and now they each have one deep 10 frame box with 10 frames and plenty of wax (black) foundation and propulus (ground level) None of the trees in my yard will support a box.. The hives are about 10 feet apart and have 6 foot fence about 4 feet behind the. I'd like to try LGO in one and the swarm commander in the other. Thoughts? Thanks


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

> The best spot for your lure hive is right on the stand you want occupied. A swarm will find it there as easily as it will on a nearby tree. That will save you having to move it. Last year I stocked two new apiaries by just setting up baited hives on their stands. Caught three at one and four at another.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Oliver, you shouldn't have said that. Now Charlie knows where his bees went, if he didnt already.

I will have all my empty 10 frame equipment out and baited on the hive stands. As I (hopefully) catch swarms, they will get moved into the boxes. With any luck, some of the boxes will already have bees. The nucs are for queen breeding and are too small anyhow.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Oliver, you shouldn't have said that. Now Charlie knows where his bees went, if he didnt already

Too late. He has for years had a Google Map of all my sites and sets his trapline accordingly.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I consider it an honor and a privilege to place my traps near Ollie’s and Tanksbees sites. The swarms I lure from their hives are fine quality bees that produce huge honey crops. I have offered both of them samples of the honey they produce but as of this writing, that have both declined.


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## Cape Bee (May 8, 2015)

I put trap boxes out on the canola every year
Last year I had an 80% success rate.
All traps are deeps
I use mainly 10 frame boxes. I try to use old boxes but not always
I smear the inside with propolis and burn with a blow torch
I put starter strips in frames
Also a little lemon grass oil
I also use 5 frame nucs, singles and 2 deep. Have more success with double deep than single

According to research(please don't ask for reference I can't find it now) scouts will fly inside the new hive and measure it. If it is too small or too big they will choose another box/cavity.

Remember the general rule, big boxes catch big swarms and small boxes catch small swarms.


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## Cape Bee (May 8, 2015)

And all boxes are standing on the ground. Later I try to put on tyres.


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