# What size screws for assembling hive bodies and supers?



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Supers sould be nailed or stapled. One can order nails w/ the unassembled supers.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

BTW, those are box joints, finger joints are actually a little different. Nomenclature in woodworking seems a little poorly defined. Box joints are sometimes called "finger joints", but finger joints are rarely, if ever, called "box joints".

Finger Joint --> 









Box Joint -->









I use coated deck screws, about three inches long, or sometimes a little longer, and they work well. I glue the joints, clamp them up, drill pilot holes, and then fasten tightly with the screws.

Lowe's, Home Depot, or very many hardware stores all carry this type of fastener. They are, as the name suggests, been designed for use in constructing wooden decks.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Nomenclature in woodworking seems a little poorly defined.


Not if you're talking to a woodworker. Carpenters are picky like a bunch of beekeepers. 
Screws are overkill in putting boxes together, especially if you are using a good quality glue. That said, I've used deck screws like Joseph but prefer SS trim screws.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks for the reply and for correcting my woodworking terms. And I guess there is some ambiguity in woodworking terms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_joint Maybe it depends on what part of the country you are from?

It seems to me that a deck screw has a much larger diameter than appropriate for a box joint in 1" pine . . . ? But when I look to a narrower diameter screw, they are not long enough (I am thinking about 2" should be a good length). Anyone have a source for long and skinny screws?

I would prefer screws for ease of disassembly, but maybe I should just use the SS ring shank nails I already have.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I use 1 5/8 inch coated decking screws and no glue. The box joints should be predrilled if possible to prevent splitting the wood.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why would you want to disassemble a super? If you don't glue too, aren't there problems w/ screwing into end grain?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

cg3,
I think you are right.

I've also sometimes used SS screws, called Sharx, or similar screws like -> 

http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0730-TT6/7-x-3quot-316-Stainless-Steel-Star-Drive-Trim-Head-Screws

My current glue of choice = Titebond III.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Again, thanks for the great information, especially about the fine distinction between box joints and finger joints. I can now see why there is some non-uniformity in the use of those terms. 

I would think there are problems for screwing OR nailing into end grain, however, nailing seems to be used by alot of beeks. Perhaps even nails, especially when going into end grain are not necessary with todays modern polymer glues?

As to using screws vs nails, I had read a few experienced beeks sometimes want to disassembly their hive bodies or supers. I am too inexperienced to know myself before hand whether I really need to disassemble such woodenware, but I figured it was easy enough to leave that option open by using screws, although using glue may indeed foreclose on the possibility of future disassembly.

It seems that it is generally standardized what size nail to use for hive bodies (7d, I believe), and there appears to be similar standardization for the various nail joints for a wooden frame. To the contrary, it seems the same can not be said for screws for hive bodies.

The #7 by 3" trim screws linked by Joseph Clemens seems like a good "long and skinny" screw.

Rockler sells a #6 x 2-1/4" trim screw (although not an exterior screw) http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1355


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I don't use screws but if I did, I would use the trim screws to avoid a lot of the potential splitting.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I vote for no glue and box nails (rosin coated). A crown staple would be as good. Titebond II & III are quick setting glues. The finger joints that I have put together (from betterbee) are very snug. If you try to glue this joint you may not get it tight together before the glue set up. The strength of this joint is greatly affected by getting it bottomed out. With all the nails in each finger the joint is as strong as it needs to be in my opinion. Screws are fine but they are more work and not necessary unless you are talking strictly butt joints. In that case I use a 3 in long deck screw for 1 in think material.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I use 3" coated deck screws (pre-drilled) and Titebond III.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Acebird - Thanks for the warning about the Titebond glue possibly setting before the joint is fully snugged together. I will be using Titebond III, and have read that it sets up quickly. Plus, I have heard that the Brushy Mountain box joints are very tight. I will be sure to work quickly.


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## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

Betterbee's boxes fit so tight that it's not worth trying to glue them because you wont get any into the joints. Galvanized nails work fine with pre-drilling. The downside of deck trim screws is they are for attaching trim and have very small rounded heads which will penetrate the surface so they can't be seen. This also means they won't have the holding power of a regular bigger headed deck screw when it comes to prying boxes hard with a hive tool. 
For me, it's galvanized box nails for box joints and regular two inch deck screws and titebond glue for rabbet-jointed boxes.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Yup, I am starting to think that screws just aren't worth the hassle. There's is the primary question of whether the extra holding power is really necessary when already using a good glue, plus there is an increased chance for splitting wood, not to mention the extra work to screw them in rather just hammering in a nail.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I've used 2" coarse thread drywall screws for many projects. The hive/supers were already pre drilled anyways.

I don't know if they are cheaper by the pound than the nails or other fasteners that one would normally use.

Why did I start using coarse thread drywalls screws? 

I found that using a hammer was too noisey (plus too many dents), glue was too messy, and I've always had an ample supply of drill accessories.

Plus, I like to be able to take things apart if I need to replace a piece rather than redo the whole thing. Besides, it's less stressful.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I use 1 5/8" exterior screws and titebond definately over kill but I started with an extra box of screws. I do have to drill pilot holes.

I would think 3" screws would be tough to drill in without problems on commercial grade equipment.

Those of you that think I should just use nails have yet to see me swing a hammer!
Screws will have to do til I can get a gun.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC said:


> I've used 2" coarse thread drywall screws for many projects.


Drywall screws I would not use for two reasons 1. they are a harden screw that will snap if bent. They have a thin shank unlike deck screws. 2. they will rust quite easily.
Now don't go postal on me I am just telling you why I wouldn't use them.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I use the finishing deck screws (the small head decrease splitting) and Tight Bond III. The screws snug the box joints up very nicely, as I don't have an endless supply of clamps, and do not want to wait for each box to set before I do the next ones. In a medium 4 screws per corner about and 6 per deep. Over kill most likely but it sure does work.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I use 6d (2 1/5") GALVANIZED nails and Titebond II or III glue. The glue seals up the cracks around the box joints -- not as tight a fit as some commercial ones because I cut them myself. 

Make sure you are using hot dip or zinc eletroplate nails (hot dip is better). The plastic coating on ALL coated screws gets scraped off when you drive the nails in, and shortly rust appears. You may or may not have to pre-drill to prevent splitting, depends on the wood. If you do pre-drill, the hole needs to be smaller than the nail.

Unless you take 20 minutes or so to assemble a box, Titebond won't set up fast enough to cause you trouble, it takes a couple hours to get to decent strength like all water based polymer glues. It will cause the wood to swell a bit, making the joints tight, but I don't have any trouble with it.

Peter


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

RiodeLobo said:


> finishing deck screws and Tight Bond III. ... In a medium 4 screws per corner about and 6 per deep.


Dan- you're putting your trophy at risk.


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

4 #6x2-1/2" deck screws counter bored and filled with wood filler to keep out water on each corner. Tight bond III is the best glue for outdoor projects too.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I use 2" galvanized drywall screws.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

When I have a board a little warped, I'll also use a few 2 1/2" deck screws to draw the boards together. Otherwise just tightbond III & galvanized #7 box nails.


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

shinbone said:


> Acebird - Thanks for the warning about the Titebond glue possibly setting before the joint is fully snugged together. I will be using Titebond III, and have read that it sets up quickly. Plus, I have heard that the Brushy Mountain box joints are very tight. I will be sure to work quickly.


The ones I got from BM were very tight, but they work ok. The last boxes I got I ordered from Kelley because they came with nails. They went right together and I am very happy with them.


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## chimneysweep (May 9, 2007)

If you are using screws, rubbing some beeswax on them makes it a whole lot easier to drive them in.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Along with Titebond, I use 1 5/8" drywall screws or decking screws on all my boxes and SBB's. Never had any snap on me yet. They are primed and painted after assembly and I've not experienced a problem with rusting. If I was making hundreds of boxes at a time I may take a different approach, but at my level I don't mind investing a little additional time and material to go the extra mile.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

I use a sub-floor adhesive like Liquid Nails exterior grade. Then I just tack the boards together with air nails to hold until the glue dries. Sub floor adhesive will not give out like wood glue will, and these boxes can be severely abused without racking.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

KQ6AR said:


> When I have a board a little warped, I'll also use a few 2 1/2" deck screws to draw the boards together. Otherwise just tightbond III & galvanized #7 box nails.


Yes, that is where the problem can be in a slightly cupped board. Titebond glues are quick setting. There is an initial tack that will occur within a minute or so especially if the wood is dry. When you first put the two pieces together on a box joint the glue locks up and you may not be able to take the cup out by the time you put the screws in.

Mike, 1 5/8? Even if your boards are only 3/4 thick you have as many threads in the cross grain as you do in the end grain so the screw isn't doing much. Two inch would be the shortest I would go. There is another advantage for a deck screw. It has a shank where there aren't any threads in the cross grain piece.
If you have sloppy box joints I suppose you need the glue as a filler but the boxes I got from BetterBee were very tight. I can't picture needing glue even in a commercial environment.


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

I am with Barry, I use 2"or2 1/2" galvanized drywall screws and glue. Nails back out, screws won't. I have been in to many houses where the drywall was nailed, after the wood starts to dry, it pushes the nail head out where they are visible. My joints have a pre drilled nail hole, never had any splits, so to be safe I would pre drill on a finger joint. Don't let it worry you, many poeple think to much and some talk out thier butt.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Yes, that is where the problem can be in a slightly cupped board. Titebond glues are quick setting. _There is an initial tack that will occur within a minute or so _especially if the wood is dry. When you first put the two pieces together on a box joint the glue locks up and you may not be able to take the cup out by the time you put the screws in.


More wrong information from Acebird.  Data below from Titebond manufacturer:


> Titebond II: Open assembly time; 5 minutes (70°F./50%RH)
> Total assembly time; 10-15minutes (70°F./50%RH)
> Source: http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=2ef3e95d-48d2-43bc-8e1b-217a38930fa2





> Titebond III: Open assembly time; 10 minutes (70°F./50%RH)
> Total assembly time; 20-25minutes (70°F./50%RH)
> Source: http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=e8d40b45-0ab3-49f7-8a9c-b53970f736af


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

From having used Titebond III and just plain old-school white glue on other projects, I think I have experienced an initial "grab" that the glue does when pressed to a thin layer in a tight fitting joint. Maybe this is what Acebird is referring to?

Another question comes to mind - how many nails or screws do people use per corner? I see some instructions which say to nail each finger which makes sense for smaller nails, but putting a 3" deck screw in each finger would seem to be too much . . . ? Is there a happy medium?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Supers sould be nailed or stapled. One can order nails w/ the unassembled supers.


Say What? please explain exactly why supers "should" be nailed or stapled. because it has always been done that way? Just what are the advantages to staples or nails over screws?
What I know about the issue is that screws have not been the traditional fastener in the past because they are expensive. That changed quite a few years ago about the time they started using screws to hand drywall rather than nails. In fact screws area much better fastener than a nail and certainly better than a staple. Also if you can't answer a question then just set and wait for the answer. You may do better next time it is asked.

The answer to what screws to use. 1.5 inch deck screws if you are using 3/4 inch thick boards. The rule is you want the screw to penetrate at or near the thickness of the board. this approx half the screw is holding. It is the same thing you woudl use to screw pickets on a fence. In fact just go to the hardware store and ask for whatever screws they have for building a fence from 3/4 inch thick pickets.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I once built a refrigerator sized incubator for several hundred quail eggs per setting. I used polyurethane glue (I would have used Titebond III, if I knew then what I know now), and stainless steel screws. After it was completely assembled and the glue set and completely cured (about two days), I removed all of the stainless steel screws to reuse on other projects (over $100 worth of screws). That was about fifteen years ago. The incubator is still completely functional, not a single problem, not even from the missing fasteners. The glue was, obviously more important than the fasteners.

I glue, clamp, then screw together my supers but leave the screws in - not because I believe they're necessary, but just to add that little extra insurance against collapsing supers full of bees and honey.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

shinbone said:


> From having used Titebond III and just plain old-school white glue on other projects, I think I have experienced an initial "grab" that the glue does when pressed to a thin layer in a tight fitting joint. Maybe this is what Acebird is referring to?


That is exactly what I am referring to. There is no reference for the time on initial tack because it happens almost instantly. Take two pieces of wood and a dab of glue between them and clamp them together for five seconds. Remove the clamp and you will witness this initial tack.

Shinbone a fastener for each finger is the only way to get the joint tight. If you succeed in doing that you won't need the glue or you could just glue the end grain and not the fingers.

Daniel as a rule of thumb I would pick a length for the screw to be 1.5 times the thickness of the board (for penitration) plus the thinkness of the board you are gluing because the threads you want to hold are in end grain. For a 3/4 think board it would be 1 7/8. If you were talking about a laminated piece where the grain would be cross grain I think you can go equal into each piece. That would be 1 1/2 long for instance.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I have a beekeeping friend who is also a cabinet maker. He Does Not use Titebond because it doesn't tack up quick enough for him...

Every box I own is put together with Titebond II or III, even my very first 18 mediums purchased from BetterBee.

If I didn't have power tools to drive the the screws in I suspect that I would use nails.

This thread is the first thread I've read that someone thought that Titebond glue set too fast. Boxes can be assembled in steps, glue and screw an end and a side... the opposite end/side... and when ones ready... glue/screw the two pieces together. I seal over the exposed endgrain and screw heads with Titebond as well.

I would recommend that new hobbyists follow what is practiced by the majority of experienced hobby beekeepers.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

BeeCurious: "_I would recommend that new hobbyists follow what is practiced by the majority of experienced hobby beekeepers._" This advice makes alot of sense to me, but what do the majority of beeks do? It seems that there is quite a range of methods used.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Start a new tread and ask in a poll. Just ask if people use glue on their boxes.

Here is what I would ask:

Do you use glue when assembling the majority of your boxes?

Choice 1: Yes
Choice 2: No


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

shinbone said:


> but what do the majority of beeks do? It seems that there is quite a range of methods used.


Yuup! Pick one. If it doesn't work for you pick another. That's beekeeping...


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Yuup! Pick one. If it doesn't work for you pick another. That's beekeeping...


You must be dreaming....

That's not answering Shinbone's question!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Sure it is. If he goes by the majority he probably is not going to use glue. He might not even use paint.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Well . . . I tried to do a poll, but I couldn't get it to work. I clicked the "poll" option, but no poll template appeared to enter the poll options into. Anyone care to PM instructions on doing a poll?


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

shinbone said:


> Well . . . I tried to do a poll, but I couldn't get it to work. I clicked the "poll" option, but no poll template appeared to enter the poll options into. Anyone care to PM instructions on doing a poll?


With all due respect to acebird i do not believe he knows what he is talking about. Titebond's data disagrees with him as does the experience of every person i know including myself. Take titebond3 and 2 boxes, assemble one in 30 seconds and the other in 4 minutes. Wait till fully cured and see how hard each is to knock apart. Both will break wood rather than the glued joint if it is cut properly.


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