# 2012 Dieback Already?



## LSPender

as we check the outs we are not finding mites in the capped brood, lots of outs from Idaho where the drought brought on a grasshopper population which then was sprayed with growth regulators. The bees that were in areas not sprayed look ok.


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## Ian

Im hearing nothing but good looking hives from others this fall. My hives looked good going into winter storage also, but thinking my nucs looked small. I have not seen any Deformed Wing Virus this year like I have seen in previous years. My nosema is under control also, so the tests had determined. 
Our bees have not flown since beginning of October, and now they sit in storage. Could be a 6 month duration in the wintering sheds, this spring will determine our wintering success


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## sqkcrk

LSP, I have heard losses attributed to pesticides(neonics) too.

Ian, storage? How are your colonies stored? Indoor overwintering?


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## Ian

ya we winter everything inside, put them away earlier this year because it got cold early this fall. Put them away just before the snow started. They will be sitting nice and tight quiet and calm until late March.


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## sqkcrk

U have snow already? Boy oh. NY is nicer now knowing that.


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## Ian

getting a foot dumped on us as we speak


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## honeyshack

6+ inches here now already with more in the forcast. But I hear you are getting it worse Ian


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## Vance G

We have a fresh 15 inches on the ground here at 3600 feet, not snowing now, but more forecast.


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## sqkcrk

Alright already, enuf about the weather, how about what the Thread is about. I shoukldn't have commented on the weather in Manitoba.

2012 Dieback Reports anyone?


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## Ian

Im just glad we have finally gotten a good solid freeze. 5 inches of rain was really needed but made for a muck hole around the cattle yard.
glad I was able to pick my bees on some frosty days.


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## squarepeg

just a hobbiest here, no treating this year. 1 out of 19 is as good as lost already, 2 more are 'iffy'.


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## sqkcrk

Thanks peg, but I'm trying to get to the bottom of some reports/rumors(?) and want to know what is going on in the Commercial BeeWorld. But thanks.


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## squarepeg

oh, i understand, and you are welcome. i am interested in this too. i'll keep an eye on the thread.


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## odfrank

In my attempt to sweep CharlieB's `odfrank' challenges on Beesource this year, see:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ready-for-the-Odfrank-overwintering-challenge

my bees are setting up nicely. Clusters dwindling to fist size, DWV crawlers by the thousands, a few total losses already. I attribute it to no treatments for mites and massive DWV. Hives with mid and late summer queens seem almost impervious. Lots of EFB also. Looking good to be the big winner once again. Eighty-three and falling fast. It doesn't turn around till well past New Years, but at least the Eucalyptus have started blooming.

Gallons of soggy bee corpses for sale cheap, smell great for vandalization projects, like hide pile of them under the seat of your enemies car or truck.


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## The Honey Householder

Mine still kicking, at less for the next week or two. Mine has been cutting brood for the last few weeks. 62 deg.and sunny today and 90% flying. The cold weather the past few weeks have me wanting to get out and start putting brood boxes in for the new season. Would be nice to get ahead of the game for this next year.


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## KevinR

I had 6 (out of 40) die so far, but 5 of those were my fault through starvation. A commercial guy near me has lost 20-30% of this hives. Lack of fall nectar and mites is the current guess.

All of my hives are very light. I've been feeding heavy, but they aren't putting on much weight. I'll end up putting candy boards or dry sugar on almost all hives.


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## camero7

sideliner here. No losses yet this fall. some light nucs but all are good so far. Production hives are heavy and strong. Just did a nosema count = 0 on live bees a few dead bees in front of the hives were loaded.


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## squarepeg

interesting cam, those dead bees should have been live bees before they were dead bees.

what do make of not finding any spores in the live bees?


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## jim lyon

I have heard a few reports of early losses. Seems like every year we hear some of these reports though this year it is pretty early. Pretty hard to know the scope or the causes at this point. Our bees are looking pretty good at this point. We have only seen about a 5% attrition since spring though I am sure the winter will claim a few more.


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## camero7

squarepeg said:


> interesting cam, those dead bees should have been live bees before they were dead bees.
> 
> what do make of not finding any spores in the live bees?


Seems to follow this study. Infected bees fly off and die and healthy bees do fine.

_A total of 705 individual bees were analyzed from five colonies over three seasons in 2010. bees analyzed were sampled from the honey supers because we found no significant difference in infection levels among different groups of bees sampled Overall, colonies were found to be infected with N. ceranae. In the spring, all colonies were found infected with an average N. ceranae copy number of 8,007. In the summer, 80% of colonies were found infected with an average N. ceranae copy number of 37,057. Only one colony was found infected in the fall; however, only one bee from this colony was positive for N. ceranae infection with an average copy number of 70.3. All other samples were negative (n = 249). These findings bring into question whether a hive that has been deemed highly infected has been diagnosed as such because of an overall high infection level or because of sampling practices in which a minority of bees were highly infected but the remainder exhibited only low-level infections or no infection. 

Insects 2012, 3, 1143-1155; doi:10.3390/insects3041143

Individual Variability of Nosema ceranae Infections in Apis mellifera Colonies Author to whom correspondence should be addressed; E-Mail: [email protected] 
_


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## RayMarler

Great looking Tie-Die bee suite there Ian!


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## squarepeg

cam, that would explain it.

how did you do your sampling?


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## Ian

When testing for Nosema, it is suggested to test the bees outside the cluster, like at the hives entrances. Its a disease that targets older bees rather than newly emerged or nurse bees. 
This goes contrary to what was posted in #21. 



squarepeg said:


> interesting cam, those dead bees should have been live bees before they were dead bees.
> 
> what do make of not finding any spores in the live bees?


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## Ian

Thats my tie died beekeeper! He has been working on my honey farm for 4 or more years. He is now done school and is moving on with his life. Hmmm, I wonder how long it will be til I hire another Tie Die beekeeper 




RayMarler said:


> Great looking Tie-Die bee suite there Ian!


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## squarepeg

Ian said:


> When testing for Nosema, it is suggested to test the bees outside the cluster, like at the hives entrances. Its a disease that targets older bees rather than newly emerged or nurse bees.
> This goes contrary to what was posted in #21.


how do you do your samples ian?


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## Ian

I take a small sample of bees from the brood area of the hive to sample for varroa
I take a small sample of bees from the entrance of the hive to sample Nosema



squarepeg said:


> how do you do your samples ian?


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## coopermaple

Back to the original question. Though not from commercial operations but several beekeepers have lost hives in the past few weeks near us. I never saw them but they claimed they were really strong late August early Sept. I think all were treated with ApiVar for mites in Sept or Oct. The only answers so far have been mite or virus overload. Some of the hives had plenty of stores.
Mark


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## squarepeg

Ian said:


> I take a small sample of bees from the brood area of the hive to sample for varroa
> I take a small sample of bees from the entrance of the hive to sample Nosema


thanks ian. so like maybe 100 from the brood area and 10 from the entrance?


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## Ian

yes


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## Roland

We have a mixed bag here, SQKCRK. the connection seems to be with rainfall. We had HEAT and no rain all July. The Rain came in narrow, swaths. If the yard got rain,and therefore made honey, it looks OK now. In August, two yards, 6 miles apart, show the range. one had almost 2 deeps surplus, the other was fed that night, it was starving. We are blaming the plats/rain(or lack thereof) for the problems we are seeing.


Crazy Roland


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## wildbranch2007

three posts from bee-l last month on this subject

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1210&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=194961

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1210&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=195705

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1210&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=200261

also was a thread in this section about someone from texas I think that had a mite problem.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?274740-Losing-lots-of-hives-this-fall


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## beemandan

And for those who may have missed it....
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?274740-Losing-lots-of-hives-this-fall


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## camero7

Ian said:


> When testing for Nosema, it is suggested to test the bees outside the cluster, like at the hives entrances. Its a disease that targets older bees rather than newly emerged or nurse bees.
> This goes contrary to what was posted in #21.


Actually took the samples of the live bees from the top board, not the cluster.


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## sqkcrk

camero7 said:


> Actually took the samples of the live bees from the top board, not the cluster.


I know you guys would like to discuss sampling for Nosema. There are other Threads for that. Thanks.


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## pascal

sqkcrk said:


> I have heard from a beekeeper here in NY that he has been hearing of and seeing dieback in his outfit and others across the Nation, many different parts and in parts of Canada. How about y'all? Seen or heard something similar? What's going on? What are your observations or conversations about this like?
> 
> Is it mites? One guy I corresponded w/ thinks it has to do w/ the mild Winter (11/12) which was not only easy on the bees but the mites too, allowing an earlier buildup in the colonies.
> 
> Thanks for your input.


Here in southern Quebec, the 2012 spring comes 3 weeks earlier, it's approximatively one more cycle of varroa reproduction. I had seen that in my hives, need many more treatments this falls (I use flash of formics but will surely need oxalyc evaporation to decrease safely the varroa in my hives). One of my field has no treatment befor October (oups, my fault), and I see deformed wings deseased, and a lot of mortality in front of those hives, wich never happend to me usually (I have 100 hives to compare).


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## matt1954

Have had about 20 colonies die off in a couple of months, coupled with some excessive swarming once my colonies were taken to Florida for the winter. I did have heavy mite loads in those colonies that would not retreat despite hitting them with Check Mite, etc. I should also say that all of my colonies were on pumpkin pollination for one month prior to heading to Florida.


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## beemandan

matt1954 said:


> e heavy mite loads in those colonies that would not retreat despite hitting them with Check Mite


Does that surprise you? I've never used it myself but understand that much of the mite population is now resistant.


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## soupcan

Bee, comb & pollen samples sent in about 4 weeks ago.
I called the lab on Thursday & was told that that the results will be finished & ready this week.
So we shall see what they find.
Fingers crossed that something is found!


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## squarepeg

what happened soupcan?


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## soupcan

All the above mentioned.
Good crop, lots of bees in the box at harvest & 2 weeks later some yards lost 80% & a yard up the road a few miles no problems.


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## squarepeg

wow.


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## beemandan

soupcan said:


> some yards lost 80%


Dead bees? No bees? Brood? 
Good luck.


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## soupcan

Bees all gone with some leaving a small patch of brood.


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## squarepeg

still a mystery as to why some abscond like that. makes sense that they would have the trait to vacate a hive, for example, if the food became contaminated or something.


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## beemandan

soupcan said:


> Bees all gone with some leaving a small patch of brood.


Zero bees...no queen? Please post the results when you get them......


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## soupcan

Mostly they were nearly zero bees left in the hive.
Bee samples that were sent in were from 2 or 3 hives that had a very few young bees dead on the bottom boards.


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## Ian

That sounds familiar,
curious to know your mite and nosema levels


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## Keith Jarrett

Soupcan, how was your late summer fall. How was the pollen & nector flow?


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## Ian

I thinks I sense a theme . . .


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## squarepeg

good thread mark, thanks for starting it.


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## beemandan

Ian said:


> I thinks I sense a theme . . .


I always presume that mites are one underlying factor but that's simply my opinion. What are you seeing?


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## Ian

Im not seeing anything this year. I have not seen a single Deformed wing Virus bee all year. My nosema levels are also well under control, so my testing suggests anyway,...
I attribute my hives health to the Apivar treatment I used in the spring, did not need to treat in the fall also!

But what I was getting at in my previous post was, 
small cluster, 
no bees,
dry year in most area of North America, 
poor foraging 
inadequate mite control claimed by many southern producers
levels of nosema

it seems last time there was a break out of CCD symtoms , most if not all of these symtoms were present


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## beemandan

Ian said:


> small cluster,
> no bees,
> dry year in most area of North America,
> poor foraging
> inadequate mite control claimed by many southern producers
> levels of nosema


An ugly mix....no doubt about it.


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## soupcan

Great honey crop, huge clusters, record heat & drought, great foraging, & mite load all over the board for numbers from hive to hive & yard to yard!
Problem is that one yard you loose 65 to 75% now & 4 to 5 miles up the road every one is fine & no loss.
As far as fall flows they were great, all kinds of pollen & nectar.
Some hives were so heavy they had very little room for medicated syrup.
Record amounts of spray plane activity this summer here in row crop country. I was told when asking as to were all the planes have come from & was told the fly boys from the south have come up due to all the work here in the midwest.
We may know more this week.
The key word we are looking at this point is " fungicide "


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## mnbeekeeper

same thing here. good crop, big hives, only a few blanks into mid sept then i would find them getting smaller and smaller and more and more hives gone, had 220 going into summer now have maybe 100 ok ones nothing big anymore. best hives are about the size of a bowling ball when clustered tight. and thats in a double. should be 2 basket balls in a double. moved them in earlier than normal and watched the dead bees pile up on the ground all around the hives. young looking bees crawling around dying not going home. i think its chemicals. systemics to be specific. dave hackenberg describes the same thing in a article i read. i treated for mites 3 times with 2 different products. from august to oct. its more than mites. they are being slowly poisoned. they say corn farmers are using the stuff like crazy now. and it stays in the ground. i think it has to be a major contributor. in 2006 when people started having the big losses we didnt see anything like that. we had mite troubles but no big die offs. now this year once the bees started going down no one could save them. not even you and your pollen sub keith!!! had to say it you brag the stuff up way to much on here. so i think now the chems are used wide spread by way more farmers and its taking its effects on the bees now.


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## Ian

>> i treated for mites 3 times with 2 different products. from august to oct.

thats not easy on the hives either,


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## mnbeekeeper

so your suggesting i screwed my bees up. i used formic in august and was not to impressed with how the bees reacted to it but they were still big hives a month after i hit them with the formic. i talked to a guy that used apigauard to the label 2 treatments in a 2 weeks and he still followed up with another treatment in oct. and he has the same story as me. bees looked good and then started to shrink way more then usual. ian you dont agree the farm chems could be a huge factor to our problems. do you have millions of acres of corn planted around you. if not maybe thats why your bees look good IAN.


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## Ian

no that was not what I was implying, sorry if it came across that way
I figured when you said a few treatments you were implying formic, formic is hard on bees and queens especially having done consecutive treatments with it
I do agree farm chemicals are being used, but I will not suggest they are the problem until we have actual science suggesting such, 
we do have corn planted all around my yards, and yes my yards do look okay to say for now. 
We have to be careful when we lay blame towards others who may not be the culprit to lay blame on. If it is actually farm chemicals that are causing all the problems, then I will join the movement against farmers using such but until then we had better start scraping up the proof so that the case can be made.

Im using these chemicals also, as a farmer, and if these LABELED products get pulled off the shelf without just cause, the farmer just joins the list of casualties along side the beekeeper.

My point was not implying your a bad beekeeper, my point was we need to look internally to find the problems also

and again, sorry if you took my comment as such


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## squarepeg

mark, are your able to elaborate on the 'rumors' that prompted you to start this thread?


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## sqkcrk

Statements that were made which I wanted to substantiate about widespread substantial losses.


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## squarepeg

understood, thanks mark.


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## swarm_trapper

One thing we all need to do is not only treat for mites but TEST! what were the levels of mite what are the levels. With most of these new products out there the weather and brood plays such a big part.


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## LSPender

MITES are NOT the problem, get over it!!!!!!! When will some of you realize that pesticides are causing these problemes. The challenge comes in the forums of chemicals that are being used, they effect the bee hive, a biological unit , at the core of its operation in a way we do not understand yet! And it is different than a spray kill of yester year, That is a products sprayed and you have thousands of dead bees within a 24 to 48 hours period on the ground in front of the hive.
I personally have beene drastictly effected by growth regulators that were sprayed to kill grasshoppers, hives full of honey, capped brood and no bees, & no mites in the dead brood!!!!!. Thats from the Idaho area. From North dakota we have extracted many drums of honey from the dead outs, solid frames of capped honey in singles, hives dead by 1 st week in Oct, yet they are plugged full of sunflower honey, which bloomed in late august, so there had to be bees to make the honey, again no mites in dead brood!!!!!
In years past we have found mites in the dead hives , not this year.
Prior to repsonding , please take a deep breath and as my friend the research scientist that test crop chemicals & pestides for the major companies told me last week, Something bigger is happening here and we have not figured out how to see it.

My main suspect is the sygergistic reactions of the many diferent chemicals in the hives, as we all know the hive is a big sponge and the bees collect everything in the area. What the triggeres are, do not know, but I have seen the results this year.

The other wired thing is that I am see tones of wax moths , that we have not seen for years. They are growing in all dead outs from CA, ID & ND. This is conffusing to me.


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## sqkcrk

Easy LSPender. We can hear you. That's what I have been hearing too, but confirmation has been sketchy I believe.


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## jim lyon

Well no doubt grasshopper spraying is a problem.....where it occurs. As are mites when they aren't controlled. Grasshopper spraying primarily occurs in the grasslands of the west where they breed in ground that is undisturbed by farming. I saw a little of it myself this summer, fortunately it was early enough in the season that the bees had time to recover. however some of these reports are in areas that are heavily farmed and in those cases there is suspicion of fungicides and other farm chemicals. I have no idea what the cause or causes might be in each case only that "all the usual suspects" need to be considered and certainly varroa has a pretty long rap sheet.


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## benstung

for example- 
one yard all with hives started late with one single frame of brood and new queen. ALL equipment totally brand new. 
By August these are all thriving doubles with new comb. Mite free and treated.

then the brood that is found while we are extracting is put on these hives daily, one box at a time as needed. meaning a few boxes a day. 
using these hives as an incubator for the brood to hatch out of the comb and give the hives some extra population at the same time.
after some time passes and the brood hatches and i went to take the boxes off and what do i find.

now i realize what i was doing was taking a spoon full of mites and putting them in the hive.
4 good hives left in the whole yard??? 
moral of the story is that something came with that brood and destroyed the hives.
and that something was the varroa mite.

these characteristics held true through out our operation this fall.

Just as Lpender said. boxes and boxes plugged with honey, must have been lots of bees at some point.


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## Keith Jarrett

benstung said:


> Just as Lpender said. boxes and boxes plugged with honey, must have been lots of bees at some point.


Boxes plugged full of honey, Thats when mites do their best work.


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## jim lyon

My first encounters with varroa years ago was pretty much what you describe, lots of bees mid summer but by fall you end up with a whole bunch of honey and a few hundred bees. Of course that's a pretty easy diagnosis as the bottom boards will be red with dead mites. On the other hand if there are lots of dead bees in the entrance it could well be a mite vectored virus though if mite counts are low and there are "crawlers" I would be looking at other potential causes. In any case one should always first eliminate varroa as the cause before looking elsewhere. It continues to be the worst and, with the exception of afb, the most easily diagnosed. Lets just remember, though, bees are in lots and lots of different conditions under many varied management scenarios. There is almost certainly no "one size fits all" solution.


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## Ian

Yes I do agree pesticides is a problem. Pesticides used outside the hive, pesticides used inside the hive. Their residues surely are having the effect on the health of our hives. One part of the puzzle.
The other part of the puzzle is colony diseases, varroa, nosema, all the 7 different viral infections they can get, afb
I believe, as many others do, that it is the drag down in colony health from external AND internal exposure which allow these diseases to thrive.

But all this stuff is getting boring right,.? It has been said again and again, no one person to blame, yet the problem still exists and our bees are not performing as they once did. 

So lets blame the farmers!!! lets blame the chemical companies!!! lets string them up and get some justice here!!! Our bees are dying! Science isnt giving us a clear answer! Lets make our own answer!!!


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## Ian

The thing about pesticide exposure is its effect on the organism does not discriminate. But I believe the reason why we are seeing so much variation between exposures is the interaction between the diseases present in the hive.

Viral infections especially, but we know very little about these diseases to be able to comment on them,...

But we know alot about Nosema and its effect on bees. But lets look past the worker bees and look at the queen herself. when she gets sick she takes the colony down. 
I notice as does most other beekeepers that queens younger than 1 years of age performs better than queens older than 2 years of age. It never use to be that way. 2 year old queens use to be in their prime. I seriously believe nosema has alot to do with this.


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## LSPender

Why not ask the question from a new perspective about nosema, why do we assume it is starting from inside our operations, what about asking the questions from the persective of the outside environment? Is something outside the hive enhancing the nosema levels?


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## Ramona

LSPender said:


> Why not ask the question from a new perspective about nosema, why do we assume it is starting from inside our operations, what about asking the questions from the persective of the outside environment? Is something outside the hive enhancing the nosema levels?


A couple of years ago we had Dave Tarpy speak to our local bee club on queen bee health. He showed a chart which I believe is in the Sammataro/Yoder book on honeybee health...chart showed nosema levels in queens over decades (back to 1940's oe earlier? sorry...not with my books right now). Queens over time showed varying levels of nosema - 10%, 20%,etc., up and down over the years. Queens in 2010 (think it was then - most recent looked at for that particular study) showed nosema levels at 0%.

We asked why 0%? What is different all of a sudden? Dave said that the queen producers are "feeding the snot out of them with fumagillin".

If there is truth to the report that fumagillin use increases nosema spore production and the idea that healthy gut microbes are a key to honeybee health then ?????

Maybe "outside" the environment is actually "inside"?

Ramona


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## delber

Seems to me that this is all the more reason to use foundationless / comb guide, recycle combs out at some 2 or 3 year intervals, and rear your own queens from your "proven" hives.


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## Ian

I have had problems with finding dead hives through out the year, no apparent reason why the colony fails. Finding broodless hives in spring, finding broodless hive under 5 boxes, finding broodless hives in fall. Die outs. no rime nor rhythm. 
Why? the queen just shuts down. The hive doesnt replace her, why? 

more and more Im suspecting Nosema for this. 

last spring we received one of our batchs of queens from Hawaii that were absolute failures. And if the hive accepted them, they did not lay. Guess what, nosema was the culprit. 

you suggest to look outside the hive, absolutely. Everything outside the hive influences what happens inside the hive. But what Im hearing is blame being singled out. If there were proof for that blame at least we would have something to act on.




you know that she is a witch, she acts like a witch, she looks like a witch, but you cant prove that she is a witch, 
so you kill the witch to stop her from doing witch things.
the only problem is that there is no such things as witches


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## wildforager

LSPender, I totally agree with this. This summer a saw a few bees, here and there, with deformed wings in a hive or 2 of mine. My understanding is that there is a varroa presence then but the effects were minimal for me. I've requeened over half of my hives with VSH queens. I don't treat but did put in some beetle blaster traps after seeing more beetles than usual in my hives. In the last 6 weeks I've gone from 20 hives down to 12 (lost 2 or 3 of my strongest and oldest hives). The lost hives have either no bees at all inside or very few dead in a cluster. Some totally loaded with frames of capped honey and some with no food, no brood, but feed in the hive top feeder above. I keep my bees at 2 locations, both are organic veggie farms. Who knows what the neighboring farms do. Its really saddening.



LSPender said:


> MITES are NOT the problem, get over it!!!!!!! When will some of you realize that pesticides are causing these problems.


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## jean-marc

Checked a few hives yesterday. They looked good. Some were clustered pretty tight. Others were open and the temperatures of the inner covers suggested there was still some brood rearing going on. The season was generally poor but I spent a small fortune on pollen ptties and plenty of syrup.Treated for nosema but I have not done a spore count recently. Low varroa levels, but they were treated in the fall with thymol. We also changed all our queens this season with our home grown queens.

So far I would have to say I am pleased with my bees.

Jean-Marc


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## beemandan

wildforager said:


> This summer a saw a few bees, here and there, with deformed wings in a hive or 2 of mine. My understanding is that there is a varroa presence then but the effects were minimal for me. I've requeened over half of my hives with VSH queens. I don't treat


 Let me see if I understand. You requeened half of your hives w/VSH queens and DWV was not epidemic, …therefore it could not have been varroa related…in spite of the fact that you don’t treat.


wildforager said:


> (lost 2 or 3 of my strongest and oldest hives)


I'm afraid that this is classic varroa collapse.

If my interpretation is correct, then I believe you’ve found yourself in the wrong place. There is a support group for this sort of denial on Beesource. It is called the Treatment Free Forum.
Good luck.


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## wildforager

Dan,
Its even sadder that you only see one possible reason for losses of bees. Are you employed by monsanto or bayer? Get real man, mites are not the only reason my hives died. OK, I'll give you a hive or 2 at the most but 8 hives in 6 weeks? And most had not a single dead bee inside? Wake up. You're the one in denial.


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## beemandan

Early fall when brood production slows/ends is the time when varroa damage reaches its peak. The bigger and older the colony, the harder and faster they collapse. I am not going to argue this with you. I will only say that without knowing the level of varroa infestation in your hives, to insist that their collapse wasn’t varroa related is denial.


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## jmgi

Is a lack of dead bees in a hive a classic sign of mites or related disease?

John


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## jim lyon

Back in the 90's when varroa first hit I had a whole load of 500+ hives that went untreated and I lost every single one. They were almost exactly the way you described your losses, lots of honey and hardly a bee. It was pretty easy to pull the honey crop though  This really has nothing to do with big chemical companies though just learning how to diagnose varroa problems and to help some get answers on what may have happened to their bees.


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## jim lyon

John: it's not the only reason it can happen but it's probably the most common. Just take a close look at the bottom board if there are lots of dead mites then I would be certain of it


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## wildforager

Well, I appreciate the insights by all. I'm open to the possibilities. The title of this thread is "2012 Dieback Already" does this mean that I shouldn't post here and I should shut up and go to the treatment free forum? Thats the message I got a few posts back.


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## Vance G

I would listen to Mr. Lyon if I were you and not go off in a snit. Lots of old grouches here but if you put up with them, there is a lot to learn. If you choose to be treatment free, you will be a fine customer buying bees from someone who has a stategy of some kind to control the mites. There are treatment free folks but only if you limit treatment definition to chemical treatment. Some genetics work better than others. There is a lot to learn period. Don't go away mad.


----------



## benstung

i think its obvious that both problems exist, whats not obvious is why the health of our bees seems to go in these cycles.
i think, and i hope im right that we will not see these same problems next year. 

you see these dead hives with only a few bee's, a queen, lots of honey, no dead bee's, also not many mites.
the reason there are not many mites is the same reason there are not many bee's.
the bee's fly away with their sickness to try and save the colony

And on top of that they have to deal with pesticides


----------



## beemandan

wildforager said:


> Well, I appreciate the insights by all. I'm open to the possibilities. The title of this thread is "2012 Dieback Already" does this mean that I shouldn't post here and I should shut up and go to the treatment free forum? Thats the message I got a few posts back.


That wasn't the message I sent. What I responded to was your certainty that your losses weren't mite related at the same time describing conditions that were ideal for high mite losses. If you are open to the possibilities...as you say...then I say.....carry on.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Ramona said:


> the idea that healthy gut microbes are a key to honeybee health then ?????
> 
> Maybe "outside" the environment is actually "inside"?
> 
> Ramona


Stop, we have a winner, kinda like Nutra Bee with it's microbe builder plus sub.


----------



## The Honey Householder

Vance G said:


> I would listen to Mr. Lyon if I were you and not go off in a snit. Lots of old grouches here but if you put up with them, there is a lot to learn. If you choose to be treatment free, you will be a fine customer buying bees from someone who has a stategy of some kind to control the mites. There are treatment free folks but only if you limit treatment definition to chemical treatment. Some genetics work better than others. There is a lot to learn period. Don't go away mad.


Vance is right! I'm treatment free and I buy new bees every year. 1989 was the start of the mite year for my Dad and I. 1300+ hive and only seven live hive in the spring. Each hive dead with 60+ lb each, and very few dead bees left in the hives. Years of supporting the chemical company for hope that something good would come from it, and didn't. 
Ready do we have the same problem or a new one. 
Why is the queens that are produced today just throw away queens???:digging:


----------



## jim lyon

wildforager said:


> Well, I appreciate the insights by all. I'm open to the possibilities. The title of this thread is "2012 Dieback Already" does this mean that I shouldn't post here and I should shut up and go to the treatment free forum? Thats the message I got a few posts back.


My intention wasn't to be rude at all but it is fair to note that this is the commercial forum. You can read the definition and then post if you feel that what you are posting meets that definition and adds to the discussion. If your perspective is that what is happening to some of these folks bees is the fault of big chemical companies you may well have some commercials agree with you but dont be offended when you are challenged to back up your claims and be able to make a compelling case for why varroa is not the problem. Hope I didn't sound like an old grouch.


----------



## beemandan

jim lyon said:


> Hope I didn't sound like an old grouch.


I think the old grouch comment was directed at ......moi....but then, I've been called much worse


----------



## mnbeekeeper

so if i treat for mites once a month all year long, and then feed the bees nutra bee in the fall your saying i will have live hives come november.:thumbsup: i really am curious how often some of you are treating. i treated once in the spring and 3 times in the fall. not enough?? too much?? where am i different from those of you that still have good bees this year.....is natural pollen building their gut microbes up??


----------



## Ian

The Honey Householder said:


> Why is the queens that are produced today just throw away queens???:digging:


I would not call commercially produced throw away queens. These commercial queen breeders would be able to talk me under the table about making queens,.... Yet they still send poor performing queens,... they also send some real excellent producers


I think its not that the queens are bad, I think its that the queens are getting sick. Getting sick either while being raised or getting sick in the beekeepers hive. 
I think Nosema is at the heart of our queen problems


----------



## Ian

mnbeekeeper said:


> .....is natural pollen building their gut microbes up??


I want you to understand, Im not defending chemical use amoungst farmers or beekeeper alike. What Im saying is we have not been able to bring about enough hard direct proof to implicate Chemical X killing Bee hive B systemically. That direct link has not been made on a systemic basis. Until then we have to figure out a way to manage our hives in this chemical agriculture world. 
I dont like it, just as you dont like it, but its the reality of our situation. We need our association to keep looking and spending the time creating the links and proof. Nobody else is going to do it for us but ourselves. Sound familiar? 

We must not come across the wrong way and making farmers out to be our enemies. I hear alot of that. Its the farmers we make our living off of. Farmers do not have a choice either, just as we do not have a choice whether to treat our diseases or not. Its just the way our economy has built itself. And Im not going to debate that here at all....


If giving the bees a diet supplement to help replace whatever modern day agriculture "MAY" be taking away from the bees food is probably one of the simplest short term solutions we have at our disposal right now. And if anything it will buy us time to be able to figure what is going on.
Because perhaps there isnt even a problem there at all.... It may be something completely different... Like Virus...

Just my opinion


----------



## soupcan

I got the results yesterday from the lab tests for bees, wax, & pollen & I have to say I know less today than I did when the samples were sent in.
Nothing out of the ordinary was found and the remarks were made as to how clean all the samples are for no chemicals & what not.
Almost at this point in time wish there had been a smoking gun so to speak & something to place the blame on.
As I said in the past posts this is not effecting the entire outfit by any means. A few miles down the road the bees are looking fine & no loss.
Then there are 2 yards of comb honey bees that made a record crop this year are going into winter in great shape with no losses. 
Frustrating is one word for this but as I tell my son " If this deal was easy everyone would have bees & honey would maybe worth a buck at best " then I also would be kidding only myself if I thought this deal would get any easier after 35 years.
My last job of 20 plus years we always preached the 3-C's.
Cause, Correction, & Cure.
Here I have no Cause, no way of implementing a Correction, that could result in a possible Cure!


----------



## Keith Jarrett

mnbeekeeper said:


> so if i treat for mites once a month all year long, and then feed the bees nutra bee in the fall your saying i will have live hives come november


MnBeekeeper, with a question like that your best bet would be to ask questions on "beekeeping 101" then migrate to "Commercial beekeeping" once you understand the fundelmentals of beekeeping then migrate back to the commercial thread. Good luck, Keith


----------



## The Honey Householder

Ian said:


> I would not call commercially produced throw away queens. These commercial queen breeders would be able to talk me under the table about making queens,.... Yet they still send poor performing queens,... they also send some real excellent producers
> 
> 
> I think its not that the queens are bad, I think its that the queens are getting sick. Getting sick either while being raised or getting sick in the beekeepers hive.
> I think Nosema is at the heart of our queen problems


Ian,
I buy great queens for the best honey production, but they are only good for one season. Wasn't always like that. When I was a kid, I never hear of having to requeen all the time. Now requeen is just part of the job. I've taken it to the next step. I rehive the bees every year. Fresh bees and fresh queens for best production.


----------



## jim lyon

mnbeekeeper said:


> so if i treat for mites once a month all year long, and then feed the bees nutra bee in the fall your saying i will have live hives come november.:thumbsup: i really am curious how often some of you are treating. i treated once in the spring and 3 times in the fall. not enough?? too much?? where am i different from those of you that still have good bees this year.....is natural pollen building their gut microbes up??


I have been pretty public about what we do, take it for what it's worth, it might work but there are no guarantees as their are always variables in any different scenario. We replace ALL of our queens (yes I know much easier said than done) in the early spring and forego any spring treatments at all. In late summer after pulling our honey we treat with thymol. That's the real money treatment that will give you your healthy winter clusters but it can also be problematic if temps are too high or too low. We follow that up with an oxalic dribble in October when they are broodless and that's it. If you don't have your mite levels low enough in spring and are seeing a lot of mites in your nucs then you may well have to treat immediately after your queen is mated. Oxalic works well but may be risky at that stage. It has recently been suggested that hop guard might be another good product to use at that time. None of this is terribly complicated but timing and good treating conditions are the real key more so than how many times you treat.


----------



## Ian

Thats the way it use to be up here. It definitely has its advantages. 



The Honey Householder said:


> Ian,
> I've taken it to the next step. I rehive the bees every year. Fresh bees and fresh queens for best production.


----------



## Tim Stewart

Okay, my turn to get yelled at. Please do not bully another member until you bully me. 

I see some of my bees doing good and others doing poorly, or I don't see them anymore. 

Have been hearing of other beeks with terrible looking bees in the commercial sector, not so much with sideliners or hobbiests.

My thoughts are as follows:

1. Mites: Hives that skipped a cranberry pollination and were split in late June before heading up to NY look good. All my hives were treated with Apigaurd in early July. Mite levels are back up in most of the hives, but higher in the hives that weren't split. 

2. Weather: Early spring= more mites. dry late spring and fall led to poor looking bees by late June through July (Bees turned around when they hit the ground in NY.) Little nectar all summer until knotweed in late August. cool weather in late september and october ended fresh pollen sources which made them eat stored pollen.

3. Fungicides, someone back there mentioned them. Fungicides, I believe, make pollen almost worthless. My theory is the bees got some sprayed pollen in blueberries, but stored it because they had good oak pollen at the same time that they preferred. Bees in cranberries are expected to get loaded with fungicides. When the pollen stopped coming in in the fall, the bees had to use stored pollen wich contained fungicides, which further stressed the bees. Include with that the extremly high mite load at this time of the year mentioned by others. Add the affect of viral loads which the bees can't fight because they have a cold and have been living off a box of ramen noodles, so to speak. I know why my bees went backwards, looked like a good 3 boxes of bees first week of October, and by the third week they were averaging 6 frames of bees. Those bees that didn't go to cranberries got less fungicide, and their stored pollen was split in half. 

Ok, you guys get it, thats what you've been saying. but I have almost empty and empty hives that aren't littered with mites on the bottom board. Next year will be better, eh?

This is when Keith says you need Nutra-Bee. (No east coast supplier. Yet. )
Regards,
Tim Stewart
Stewart's Apiaries


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## jim lyon

The reason I requeen each year isnt because I think the queens are bad It's because #1 I want a brood break #2 a certain percentage always begin to fail the second year (if its even 10% i consider that high and #3 it's so doggone cheap and easy to do down south in the early spring


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## Ian

Tim Stewart said:


> Okay, my turn to get yelled at. Please do not bully another member until you bully me.



I dont get it


----------



## squarepeg

tim,

so is the theory that the fungicides don't allow proper fermentation of the bee bread? any science out on that yet?

jim,

swing by alabama on your next spring queen run, i'll buy you a beer.


----------



## Ian

squarepeg said:


> tim,
> 
> so is the theory that the fungicides don't allow proper fermentation of the bee bread? any science out on that yet?


Im hearing more and more about this. I do not believe there is any conclusions on this but I do believe it is being looked at,

Personally I need to see some science on it before I will draw any conclusions. There are many types of fungicides being used today, and our bees seem to be in contact with them all because most of the fungicides target flowers.


----------



## Tim Stewart

> I dont get it


 Good. Just it looked like some guys got a little hot water thrown at them, and I need a hot shower. :scratch:

No, I don't have any proof, just thoughts. Draw your own conclusions. But you've (or at least some of you) have already done that.

I don't think we know enough about bees, little tummy microbes, fungicides, pollen, mites, or viruses. But we do have a decent way to combat them. Oh, I forgot nosema. Does anyone know anything about that? lol

Tim


----------



## Ian

Tim Stewart said:


> Oh, I forgot nosema. Does anyone know anything about that? lol
> 
> Tim


Ha ha, 
little tummy microbes , fungicides, nosema, hmmmm


----------



## delber

Tim Stewart said:


> My theory is the bees got some sprayed pollen in blueberries, but stored it because they had good oak pollen at the same time that they preferred.


If I may ask a question. I thought that oak pollen was bad for the bees. I read somewhere that if they took oak pollen that it would kill the brood. Am I wrong in this? I have read that blueberries are also bad and perhaps this answeres that side of it. "some sprayed pollen in blueberries"


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## Keith Jarrett

delber said:


> If I may ask a question. I thought that oak pollen was bad for the bees. I read somewhere that if they took oak pollen that it would kill the brood. Am I wrong in this? "


Delber, here in Calif oak pollen in the spring is great, But Oak dew in the fall can spell disaster.


----------



## Tim Stewart

blueberry pollen isn't good for bees and I don't think fungicides help. We won't mention the gib. I hear NJ isn't as bad for blueberries as Maine, but they tend to come out with EFB, so I dust before and sometimes during blueberries.

Tim


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## ryan

This does seem to be one of those years that bees want to die. I saw results as described. A couple locations would be good, then the next would be almost a complete loss. Before any bees died I sent samples to BVS in Montana for virus and nosema tests. None or very low on both counts. It's all about what my bees got exposed to. Lots of Sunflower and other crops they spray. My bees were basically all the same going out of TX into the Dakotas. All Nucs with cells and a mite treatment.

It comes and it goes. Some years are better than others. Sometimes the bees survive the amount of stress they are exposed to and sometimes they don't. It's part of life where I live.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

ryan said:


> It's all about what my bees got exposed to.


Or didn't get exposed to, maybe trying exposing them to some quality pollen sub in early fall may help. I had bee in ND mine haven't crashed. Why is it certain keeper don't have this problem?


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## sqkcrk

A subtle advertisement?

I saw the truckload of blue tubs of protien sub on Facebook. Good job Keith.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

sqkcrk said:


> blue tubs of protien sub on Facebook. .


Where?

Mark, I'm just not saying this, I mean it. With all due repect to those losing bees, all of my costumers that I keep in close contact with are fine. My phone has been ringing off the hook with beekeepers in panic about losing bees. It's very difficult to turn them around now, it's too late.


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## ryan

Hi Keith

Thanks for proving my point. I have fed and do feed piles of pollen sub starting as early as August 15-20. This year I got my hands on 12 tubs of your stuff. Nice stuff, but it can't save the walking dead. If the bees were in a bad spot, I was scraping your stuff off dead hives instead of Mann Lake's. 

There are big differences in what bees are exposed to even within one county, say nothing about a state as big as ND. I have a lot of bees that are as good as you could ever hope for right now. It wasn't how soon I got the mite treatment, the last 3 yards treated look great. It's not virus or nosema, both tested negative and I treat Fumidal in the spring. And it wasn't the pollen sub, Mann Lake, brand X, or Jarrett Wonder Juice. The bees are Great or Died regardless. 

As a rule, bees that CAN'T see sunflowers and canola from the bee yard do better than the bees that are up close and personal with the crops.


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## sqkcrk

Keith Jarrett said:


> Where?


Am "Friends" w/ Matthew Greene.


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## sqkcrk

Can we look back and see when and how things changed from a time when our bees got enuf of what they needed from the environment and now when we seem to need to feed protien patties and corn syrup or our bees will die? Is it the demands of what we want to do w/ our bees that has changed? Or what?


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## jim lyon

Ryan: interesting incites. Most everything I've seen this fall is explainable. The best bees were in areas where there was a late summer flow and the worst was where not much was going on. The earlier mite treated yards were generally better as well.


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## ryan

I've seen this on and off for 10-15 years. And I don't mean the mite damage from the 80s. I'm talking about late 90s when we all basically understood how and when to do basic mite control. I use lots of new comb for brood boxes. Not that mine is perfect, but I'm not running any old black brood comb.

Some years all my bees look great, other years not so much. Good management and feed inputs help, no question. Sometimes it's not enough.


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## ryan

Hi Jim

I'm not at all surprised. I hope that I don't sound shocked about some dead hives. The funny is that some years the bees survive all the stress thrown at them and some times they don't. One step behind the line and they all live. One step farther and they quit. I'd just love to know where the line is. Maybe I could get a really good crop where I'm at and still have great bees for CA. I'd love to have my cake and eat it too!!!


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## Keith Jarrett

ryan said:


> This year I got my hands on 12 tubs of your stuff. .


Where did you find those tubs at Ryan?


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## ryan

Hi Keith
I'll send you my contact info. My apologies for any confrontational tone. I'm just trying to describe that sometimes bees get into the combination of wrong stresses. I've pushed lots of late summer and fall pollen sub. AND IT HELPS. Pollen sub is one of my constants, not a variable. But the results still vary year to year, region to region, and yard by yard. I'd love to know what one thing makes the difference for my bees. 

As I said, it was "nice stuff". I had a positive experience with the product.


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## Keith Jarrett

ryan said:


> My apologies for any confrontational tone. .


Ryan, no apologies needed, your post's are just fine, we need to hear the good bad & ugly. Facts with no fluff. But, let me ask, when did you feed the sub that the bees died & you had to scrap off sub. This is most unsettling to me.


----------



## ryan

Late this year, sept 10-15 on the second go around for mite checks and treatment. Perhaps some could have been saved if it had gone on with the first mite treatment. Of course that would have slowed down the speed of treating the hive for mites. There is a give and take that has to be balanced.

The good yards are fine. The bad yards we returned to find full feeders, uneaten sub, very reduced populations by sept 25 - Oct 2. No more losses since then. The bees that survived the September hit look really really really good now. 

I had a great crop, plenty of bees left to split and raise queens. I'd sign up for a year like this every year. I'm doing great. Great! I just wanted to share some results about dead bees. This is a business success story that involves me making money by killing my bees while I was going after a honey crop. I will do the exact same thing next year. I'm a happy camper.

I hope someone can gain from my story.

Not at all an ugly story for the feed or pollen providers. It is nice pollen sub. Those bees were just too far gone too early in the season. We just can't tell if they are sick or not when we are out feeding and treating.


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## ryan

Hey

Speed is key for getting the job done on time. I buy assembled and painted boxes. Assembled frames. I hire all my trucking. I fly between states when I go to work. I buy sugar liquified. I buy my queen cage candy tubes pre filled. I buy my yard rent pre packaged. I bought a forklift trailer that ties down with the flip of one lever.

How about selling me some pollen sub already in patty form?????? That shovel I had to use was not really my style.

Ha. That's funny I don't care who you are. 

I'm sorry that was a low blow. 

Off topic and everything


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## sqkcrk

Keith Jarrett said:


> Where?
> 
> Mark, I'm just not saying this, I mean it. With all due repect to those losing bees, all of my costumers that I keep in close contact with are fine. My phone has been ringing off the hook with beekeepers in panic about losing bees. It's very difficult to turn them around now, it's too late.


I know. I believe you. And believe you were being sincere w/out any ulterior motive.


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## sqkcrk

ryan said:


> Hey
> 
> Speed is key for getting the job done on time. I buy assembled and painted boxes. Assembled frames. I hire all my trucking. I fly between states when I go to work. I buy sugar liquified. I buy my queen cage candy tubes pre filled. I buy my yard rent pre packaged. I bought a forklift trailer that ties down with the flip of one lever.


Do what you are good at and pay for the rest. An economics instructor told me that that is a good way to make money.


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## jim lyon

I mostly agree with Ryan. We build a lot of frames and boxes in the off season partly because we have the time and partly because I had a bad experience with poorly assembled frames from a bee supply house.. But most of the year my rule is beekeepers need to be beekeepers and hire professionals to do the other stuff.


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## ryan

You guys are treating me too seriously.

I'm just trying to Razz Keith about selling the sub in great big buckets instead of a ready to use patty


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## squarepeg

ryan said:


> You guys are treating me too seriously.
> 
> I'm just trying to Razz Keith about selling the sub in great big buckets instead of a ready to use patty


i know. i wish i could get a bucket of his protein mix dry.


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## jim lyon

Don't expect to find out much about the "recipe" though. It's a lot like Coca Cola or the colonels secret blend of herbs and spices. Just buy it and don't try to figure it out.


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## max2

Ian said:


> ya we winter everything inside, put them away earlier this year because it got cold early this fall. Put them away just before the snow started. They will be sitting nice and tight quiet and calm until late March.


Wow, you Canadians have it easy. We have to pull honey all year - no 6 month break in the snow here!!


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## Keith Jarrett

ryan said:


> Speed is key for getting the job done on time. How about selling me some pollen sub already in patty form??????


Ha, you wont get me out of the pick up unless your going to feed five pounds plus to hives. Don't tell me your going to put five chicken squares on. 

You had my undivide attention when you mention scraping out sub, if there is ever a problem with Nutra Bee Please do not hesitate to call or post here. I wan't to here the complaints so I can address them.


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## ryan

Make them whatever size you want. I have a honey crop to get in and bees to treat. I don't want to spend time cutting pollen patties. I want to buy them pre made, like everything else I buy. I understand you're totally sold out as it is. I'm just saying.


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## rainesridgefarm

He does need to find a way to get a large amount of that product to the midwest.
I am sure it would sell great here.


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## Ian

you have not worked one of our production seasons, I need the winter to recover lol




max2 said:


> Wow, you Canadians have it easy. We have to pull honey all year - no 6 month break in the snow here!!


----------



## Michael Palmer

Ian said:


> you have not worked one of our production seasons, I need the winter to recover lol


Amen to that. 8 months of bee work...4 months in traction.


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## Keith Jarrett

ryan said:


> Speed is key for getting the job done on time. How about selling me some pollen sub already in patty form?????? That shovel I had to use was not really my style.


There another Ryan up your way that was going thru 45,000lb (semi load) in four days. You can ditch the shovel, try useing a dowl & wire, pull the wire thru to make a pizza size cut the thinkness that you like. We feed 1000lbs plus per man per day. If your talken speed your talken my language.


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## jim lyon

Keith: You need to repost the video of how you do it complete with your custom made wagon. A video is worth a thousand posts. On second thought maybe you don't need to encourage even more orders.:digging: I love that icon.


----------



## chillardbee

I'm in southern BC Canada. just looked at my hives (nov 5) of the 15 out of the 40 I looked at, they are all still alive. I treated with apivar this year and I think it made a difference for sure. there was next to no ND this fall.


----------



## squarepeg

nd?


----------



## ryan

Well, this has gone way off topic. Par for the course I guess.

At 5-7lbs/hive, you spend all day to pollen sub 167 hives. 2 "chicken squares" go on really fast while we are in the yard pulling honey.

The bees do go through that amount very fast. And we have to make an additional trip back to each yard a week or so later. But I have lots of time and extra labor to go back to those hives and add more sub after the honey pulling is done. 

Sometimes I want to be fast and wasteful. My crop comes in at least a week or 2 later than the other Ryan. I'm usually in a tighter time pinch than most guys.

I'll accept your last post as a polite No Thank You, can't mess with it right now or maybe ever. But I had to ask. I can still use some of your stuff for my second round of pollen. Thanks again.

ryan


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## Keith Jarrett

ryan said:


> At 5-7lbs/hive, you spend all day to pollen sub 167 hives. ryan


There's an ole boy up by Tonys that use our sub he throughs 5-7 pounders on the bottom boards (tip hive foward), he can run thru 2000lbs of sub a day on cruise control. He does this with triples on he says feed the sub before you pull the last super.

To each it own. That's why there's good bees & no bees.


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## jean-marc

I think the chillard meant natural drop of varroa mites. 

Jean-Marc


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## squarepeg

nd = natural drop, got it, thanks!


----------



## Roland

SQKCRK asked:

Can we look back and see when and how things changed from a time when our bees got enuf of what they needed from the environment and now when we seem to need to feed protien patties and corn syrup or our bees will die?


I can not pinpoint the time when the change occurred, but I believe it was not sudden , but rather a slow transition over a decade, maybe 1995 to 2005???? I blame the weather that is effecting the plants. Years ago you saw a field of flowers and assumed rightly the bees would make honey. Now, not so much. We have had the craziest STRONG honey flows in the last 5 years, Wild Cheery trees about 4 springs ago, Red Maple this march, and an unknown dark honey in early June(chicory????). 

Something is wrong with the plants, and is is affecting our bees adversely.

Crazy Roland


----------



## jean-marc

I don't get it. Weather affects plants and creates strong honey flows, I understand. I also understand that something could be wrong with plants. I'm not sure if you were saying that plants are being affected by the weather and ultimately this was creating strong honeyflows. How can that be adverse for the bees, unless you do not give them room soon enough to take advantage of this flow. 

Jean-Marc


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## benstung

Keith 
Do you think the reason you need so much pollen on your bee's is because there is none for them in CA.

or for example should i be using your protein substitute even if there is enough nature pollen.
what we need to know is if the bees are better off with a sub par substitute than they would be with our contaminated natural pollen.
has nature become so contaminated we are better off feeding them?????

Just remember we need to figure out the real problem, not just put duck tape on it.


----------



## HarryVanderpool

Roland said:


> I blame the weather that is effecting the plants. Years ago you saw a field of flowers and assumed rightly the bees would make honey. Now, not so much. Something is wrong with the plants, and is is affecting our bees adversely.
> 
> Crazy Roland


I blame our queens. All beekeepers want to talk about is varroa resistant, SMR, VHS, Hygenic, etc....
Not me.
I want good bees. Productive and gentle bees and I will take care of the mites.
Many of us are worried that queen producers are selecting ONLY for mite issues and ignoring all of the traits we have selected for over the years.
The queens I raise are grafted from the most gentle and productive hives.
Productive and gentle bees are what I attempt to purchase as well but sometimes I wonder.
It is the beekeeping community that is pressuring our queen producers to select for mite issues. I don't blame the producers; they are just listening to the misguided customer.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

benstung said:


> Keith
> Do you think the reason you need so much pollen on your bee's is because there is none for them in CA.
> with our contaminated natural pollen.
> Just remember we need to figure out the real problem, not just put duck tape on it.


Ben, I run bees in your state of TX also ND & NV, it's not all calif. Why do you feel your natural pollen is contaminated ? First let me say most of natural pollen is better than my sub, but many times (most) in the late summer-fall they need a boost to spur brood production to get lots of young fresh bees for winter.


----------



## squarepeg

there's no arguing with success keith.

but it seems counter-intuitive that one would want to ramp up brood rearing in the fall, when the bees are in the process of decreasing their population for overwintering.

is there any risk of encouraging too much brooding, resulting in too many bees, which would eat through the winter stores too quickly?


----------



## Keith Jarrett

squarepeg said:


> but it seems counter-intuitive that one would want to ramp up brood rearing in the fall, when the bees are in the process of decreasing their population for overwintering.
> 
> is there any risk of encouraging too much brooding, resulting in too many bees, which would eat through the winter stores too quickly?


SP, yes, you do need to watch weight going into winter, But let me ask you this SP, have you ever heard a keeper in jan or Feb say, " dang these cluster are just too dang big for this time of year" ?? lol

P.S. there is a reason why we have a huge package market here in Calif.


----------



## squarepeg

Keith Jarrett said:


> SP, yes, you do need to watch weight going into winter, But let me ask you this SP, have you ever heard a keeper in jan or Feb say, " dang these cluster are just too dang big for this time of year" ?? lol
> 
> P.S. there is a reason why we have a huge package market here in Calif.


not sure, is the reason that california doesn't have much of a natural fall flow, and those with pollinating contracts get paid by the frame of bees?

never heard of anyone complaining about cluster size, only that their bees starved before the spring blooms arrived. 

barring having big hives early for pollination, there may be an optimal cluster size for overwintering. i haven't fed mine this year, and they are smaller and lighter than when i fed them last fall. i guess i won't know until spring.

thanks for your reply.


----------



## benstung

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ben, I run bees in your state of TX also ND & NV, it's not all calif. Why do you feel your natural pollen is contaminated ? First let me say most of natural pollen is better than my sub, but many times (most) in the late summer-fall they need a boost to spur brood production to get lots of young fresh bees for winter.


I think the pollen is potentially contaminated with fungicides, pesticides, and herbicides because of all the corn and beans being farmed in my area.
Here in MN we have lots of pollen coming in well into September.
Pollen substitute maybe a necessary tool for beekeepers but the lack of it is far from the problem.
this year it seems there was a large loss all across the industry(bee's falling apart late summer/fall).
And i guess that is what this thread is about.

And Keith you aren't the only one crossing state lines with bee's or who knows when the bee's need pollen.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

squarepeg said:


> the reason that california doesn't have much of a natural fall flow,.


SP, it's not so much that Calif doesn't have a fall pollen flow as it is the way commercial bees are running these days. Most commercial outfits are alot larger then they use to be, I run three thousand an I'm on the smaller end of things. What you end up having is alot bigger yards & alot of yards that are close together. There isn't enough bee pasture any more like there once was, crp is going away, corn is more & more every year. So pollen sub feeding is an important part of fall management these days.


----------



## squarepeg

ahh, now i get it. thanks keith.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

benstung said:


> Pollen substitute maybe a necessary tool for beekeepers but the lack of it is far from the problem.
> this year it seems there was a large loss all across the industry(bee's falling apart late summer/fall).
> .


Ben, how do you know this to be true? I know alot of folks tell me the one's they starting feeding first did the best, and look the best now.


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## benstung

because the bees fell apart before there was ever a need to feed anything.
maybe those folks are in a different climate, that can change a lot of things


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## Keith Jarrett

benstung said:


> maybe those folks are in a different climate, that can change a lot of things


Very true Ben.

P.S. I was mixing sub in July fouth this year for a queen breeder and I haven't stop yet.


----------



## Roland

jean-marc -
I was not clear. The good flows where from plants that normally do not produce. They only appear good because the normal plants, basswood, alfalfa, Sweet clover, where such a failure this year. I blame the weather for effecting the plants in a non typical manner. It may well be possible that the pollen quality has also been disrupted. Should we be doing monthly tests on the pollen to see if what is normally good pollen now no longer has the full complements of amino acids?

Crazy Roland


----------



## Ian

I sent a sample of bees taken from one of my yards that seemed to "fall apart" mid to late September. 
My mite counts this fall were under threshold, my nosema counts were low and over the most part all my hives went into winter looking good, 
except this one yard that had about 50% of the hives die off Mid Sept.

I had found a queen in one of the dead hives and took a sample of bees from the other dead or dying hives

The queen came back as having no Nosema spore counts 
The sample of bees came back with mid to high spore counts

Why was nosema high in this particular yard,.?
Did it have anything to do with my losses,.?


----------



## JBJ

HarryVanderpool said:


> I blame our queens...


And where would you be getting those queens Harry?

I would need to see more data before I would accept the blame the queens argument. I would argue that disease tolerant traits can be selected for in productive lines of bees without sacrificing any economically valuable traits.

Nutrition and mites seem to be the main culprits in most struggling apiaries. On the nutrition front, loss of forage due to large scale Roundup ready style monoculture means a lot less variety in bee diet. Oliver's article in this months ABJ addresses this.


----------



## HarryVanderpool

O.K. John, I click on your link and then on queens.
Here is YOUR statement about your queens and focus:

>>Old Sol Enterprises is a family run business that has striven to promote sustainable agriculture and a healthy environment since its inception in 1997.

The pursuit of these endeavors has taken our family down many interesting and enlightening paths which have allowed Old Sol's founder, John Jacob, to follow his deepest convictions by expanding and utilizing his educational background (B.S. in Biology, with Minors in Chemistry and Economics).​



We recognize that sustainable agriculture and a clean, healthy environment will require our global culture adopting a new paradigm; especially in developing countries. Elements of this new model must include an Integrate​d Pest Management (IPM) approach to pest management, support of local businesses, and many elements of organic farming.

The consequences of the "old ways" of doing things have been dire and lead to many insidious and intractable problems including the release of toxic chemicals into our environment, and a treadmill of pesticide addiction, as pests and pathogen species evolve resistance to an ever increasing number of insecticides and antibiotics. We have an on-site Biologist specializing in entomology with many years of field experience with honey bees. ​



These ideologies are incorporated into Old Sol's daily apiary operations. Vexing problems, such as Varroa mites, are controlled with an IPM approach which includes screened bottom boards, very limited use of acaricides, food grade mineral oil, and most importantly, a cutting edge bee breeding program.

​

Our quest for a better bee began with Minnesota Hygienic Italians and New World Carniolans. After a few disappointing years of heavy losses to Varroa mites using these lines of bees; Old Sol began participating in several Department of Agriculture sponsored breeding programs. In 1999 Old Sol was one of the first handful of bee breeders to acquire USDA Russian mite resistant stocks. 


These lines of bees were a vast improvement; but still no silver bullet for the parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) and losses to Varroa continued. However several descendants managed to survive and continue to show some level of mite tolerance. By 2002 many of the most susceptible lines of bees had naturally been winnowed from our gene pool, and another line of mite resistant bees had been developed and released by The USDA Honey Bee Breeding and Genetics Laboratory. These bees developed by Doctors Harbo and Harris are known as Suppressed Mite Reproduction (SMR) or Smart Bees. SMR queens were eagerly incorporated into our honey bee improvement program, and after six years of careful selection and hybridization we have derived several lines of Varroa resistant stock. These breeder queens were selected from untreated survivor stock. Further selection criteria include gentleness, fecundity, and honey production. Daughters of these queens are offered for sale to the public
<<

Nothing about productivity.
Nothing about gentlness.
Mites mites mites.

Speaking of data? I know you have many many test results for hygenic.
Can you produce any for increased honey production?
As long as beekeepers continue to insist along these lines, many of us are worried about the REALLY important traits going by the wayside.


----------



## JBJ

Point taken... that was written over twelve years ago. If anything, I am guilty of not updating the site. I have plenty of customer testimonials and photo documentation to know that these bees can compete or excel with the best of them in terms of honey collection and pollen gathering. As far as gentleness goes; many come to us for that reason specifically. I only have about 40,000 queens under my belt so far (some can do up to triple that in a singe season) with only 2 or maybe 3 complaints on temperament by beekeepers who don't like to use smoke. I think a queen breeder would be insane to not make breeder selections from hives incapable of paying the bills. Our most productive hives tend to be the ones who on average carry smaller mite loads; a statement which is probably true for most operations. A heartier more tolerant bee is NOT mutually exclusive to being a productive bee. I could send you a handful to play with next season to play with if you like. They will be grafted from boomers for the almonds that had great production for at least one season prior. I'll eat my bee hat if they don't rival your best queens.

BTW productivity and gentleness are mentioned in the last line of the quote you posted. I would probably be doing myself a favor to bring that more to the front and center one of these days.


----------



## HarryVanderpool

John, I do want to buy a couple of boxes from you this year.
You have a very loyal and appreciative customer base; I hear it all the time.
I wasn't ripping on you, or any other queen producer. Just wanted to pass along my concern.
Sue Cobey mentioned "hybrid vigor" at the conference and I probed her for explanation.
I produce a few small batches of queens for myself every year and have noticed some queens with startling vigor compared to ones I buy. Is that because I am some great queen producer? I'll be the first to admit that I am not.
It could be that there is so much inbreeding in certain areas that queens mated in my spot express some of that vigor related to diversity in the area.
We went through A LOT OF QUEENS this year!!


----------



## sqkcrk

How does "vigor" espress itself? What are you seeing that you call vigor?


----------



## Ian

vigor or hybrid vigor is a term used to express great growth or high performance


----------



## sqkcrk

Ian said:


> vigor or hybrid vigor is a term used to express great growth or high performance


High performance would be expressed in the laying pattern?


----------



## Ian

I guess,


----------



## jim lyon

I think of hybrid vigor as the opposite of inbreeding though I have no idea how one could truly identify it as being something different than a host of other reasons for why one hive is remarkably better than another.


----------



## sqkcrk

So, when all things are equal, except this one does better, honeywise I assume, that's vigor? I see.


----------



## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> So, when all things are equal, except this one does better, honeywise I assume, that's vigor? I see.


But of course.  You better go get yourself some chittlins and a cold one and soak in some of that Carolina air Mark. You seem a bit edgy tonight.


----------



## sqkcrk

Do I. Don't mean to be. Am somewhat tirted from early mornings, late nights and 1,000 miles driving. Sorry.


----------



## Ian

Vigour is not a measurement of a specific trait or such, its just a term used to describe breeding a better performer or a better group of performers than the rest with all things being equil. 

I have never herd of hybrid in bees, but I do not know much about breeding bees

When I put on my other professional hats, we do alot of breeding with cattle to set up breeding programs to achieve this hybrid vigour in our stock. That is something that we can calculate,
Also most all crops are now hybrids, hybrid vigour gives us disease resistance and higher yields, 

I assume Sue Cobey Knows what she is talking about,


----------



## Dancing Bee Apiary

I am in Ontario and sell beekeeping supplies. So I am in contact with lots of beekeepers. I have heard both ends of the spectrum... from bees look pretty good at packing, to 35% loss already (large operations). I have been told from a several customers that they are expecting large losses. They are seeing small cluster sizes... and colonies collapsed.
Our own bees for the most part looked good at packing.
Also............ any beekeeper who does not think farm chemicals are not having a negative effect really needs to open their eyes. Many Ontario beekeepers experienced heavy poisonings corresponding with corn plantings in the spring. I heard many first hand accounts of full beeyards being practically wiped out. There is a reason these chemicals have been banned in many European Countries..... they kill bees.
The joke around here is you either deal with the Bears in woodland knocking your hives around(away from farmland)..... or the Bayer poisoning your bees near farmland, ( neither are funny ).


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## squarepeg

>>'I heard many first hand accounts of full beeyards being practically wiped out.'

how many is 'many'?


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## soupcan

" How many is to many? "
Real simple.
Ya go into any yard & find 50 to 75% of the hives empty of bees & or small clusters that won't make it & it's to many!!
What ever is the cause of this problem it's doing a real fine job of reduction on the bee numbers in the hive!!!


----------



## camero7

Dancing Bee Apiary said:


> Many Ontario beekeepers experienced heavy poisonings corresponding with corn plantings in the spring. I heard many first hand accounts of full beeyards being practically wiped out.


My understanding is that this was a talc issue with air powered planters.


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## Ian

>>Many Ontario beekeepers experienced heavy poisonings corresponding with corn plantings in the spring. I heard many first hand accounts of full beeyards being practically wiped out. There is a reason these chemicals have been banned in many European Countries.

ya that was not a good situation. 
Corn was being planted into dry conditions with airseeding machines, what was happening is the seed treatments was blowing out of the seed rows and mixed with dust as the machine worked through the field. Because of the extreemly dry conditions experienced in many locations the dust during the field work was finer and larger blooms. The dust carried the seed treatment through the air and over beeyards adjacent to the fields. Just like getting sprayed.


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## squarepeg

soupcan, you misquoted me.

i was only trying to get an idea of the number 'first hand accounts'.

ian, how many cases are you personally aware of?

this is obviously a problem. are steps being taken to avoid it in the future?


----------



## Ian

personally Im not aware of any, and I keep bees right beside our corn fields also.
I heard of this happening in Ontario through my beekeeping extensions office, 
I believe the situation is being examined

but I can say this situation has no relation to what went on in Europe, totally different kettle of fish


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## squarepeg

understood, thanks ian.


----------



## Dancing Bee Apiary

The poisonings in Ontario were widespread. Enough so that beekeepers were meeting directly with Bayer and OMAFRA (Ontario Min. of Agric.Food and Rural Affairs) to discuss the problem. It was a real kick for lots of beekeepers because the bees finally wintered well, only to be hit with poison.
Dust that Ian mention is thought to be the main issue... also some theory of dust landing on dark soil of field, and bees collecting their water from this soil early in the season because it has been warmed by the sun.
Also, this poisoning has many beekeepers wondering if this has been going on for years.... but this season because of the dry conditions, made it more obvious.


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## squarepeg

very interesting dba, thanks for the reply. a tragedy for sure. do you know if there were any results from the meetings?


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## Ian

not an un common sight to have 400-500 feet of dust blooms over the seeding equipment this year


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## benstung

i hope this insnt the end of beekeeping the way we know it, im just getting started

http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2...ks-everywhere-but-nothing-else-not-even-a-bee


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## camero7

benstung said:


> i hope this insnt the end of beekeeping the way we know it, im just getting started


Many beekeepers are keeping bees very close to corn. I have one yard next to a corn field. I don't see an end to beekeeping in my lifetime.


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## Ian

Same here, some being our fields in fact, 
I also have alot of canola, clover, alfalfa, buckwheat, sunflowers, bush, pastures 

If corn were a honey producer, I bet there would be no complaints from this side,


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## benstung

yes we also have many yards near corn, but i thought we were blaming chemicals used on corn for all this.


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## benstung

so you guys think that its just as good if the yard is near corn or not?


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## benstung

hey camero 
a few more years like this and you might be eating your words.
Many beekeepers like my self will not have bee's for sale this spring like some years.
If there arent nucs and packages and brood for sale where will the small timers get bee's ?


----------



## camero7

benstung said:


> hey camero
> a few more years like this and you might be eating your words.
> Many beekeepers like my self will not have bee's for sale this spring like some years.
> If there arent nucs and packages and brood for sale where will the small timers get bee's ?


Nationally there is a surplus of bees right now... 2 million hives to CA last year. I believe your problem is a drought, not pesticides.


----------



## Ian

benstung said:


> so you guys think that its just as good if the yard is near corn or not?


dont get any honey off the corn, but that obvious
hives fly over the corn to get to the flowers
no difference in yard production or health here


----------



## Ian

benstung said:


> i hope this insnt the end of beekeeping the way we know it, im just getting started
> 
> http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2...ks-everywhere-but-nothing-else-not-even-a-bee


weird way to prove a point. of course there will not be as many insects walking through his plot in the middle of a field. That goes with a wheat field , and a canola field, and a sunflower field and a clover field also . . . 
bring those crops into bloom and life arrives! after bloom finishes, life leaves. This is not something specific to corn
thats a fact that agriculture will not get away from, 

funny thing they focus on the corn


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## jim lyon

So would the complete abscense of insects (including bees) in the field be interpreted as a lack of any live bees in the area or could it be seen as proof that bees simply don't spend any time in corn fields and therefore dont have any exposure to the potential harmful effects.


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## camero7

I see my bees pulling pollen from the corn near my hives. Doesn't seem to bother them, even though corn pollen is not that nutritious. And I see lots of insects in the corn and this is silage corn that is treated seed.


----------



## mark g

I'm going back to the dieback of this thread. I have experienced the same symptoms stated earlier on this thread. My hives still seem to be going down. I have dribbled acid 3 weeks ago, not a huge drop, in most had to look to find mites. I treated the hives with thymol mid sept. (could not get on time). I have treated later in the past without seeing this. I need opinions on weather they will quit crashing and can be move south or is it a lost cause.


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## Keith Jarrett

Mark G, were you able to feed any sub to them.


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## mark g

No I have plenty of pollen all year long


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## wildbranch2007

camero7 said:


> I see my bees pulling pollen from the corn near my hives. Doesn't seem to bother them, even though corn pollen is not that nutritious. And I see lots of insects in the corn and this is silage corn that is treated seed.


You do have to remember the amount of corn around your hives doesn't come close to what is seen in agricultural area's. I've got lots of corn around my hives and see no problem, but there is more areas of non corn than corn.


----------



## rainesridgefarm

Last year we had a mild winter with lots of hives overwintering. In Wis and IL we are hearing of very high dieback this fall. Most of it looks like old queens. A lot of beekeepers did not requeen after the spring buildup and now those 2011 queens are pittering out.


----------



## benstung

well put wildbranch

camero does not understand the amount of corn and beans that are being cultivated here in Southern MN, Iowa, Nd, Sd, and all these other states.
there is by far more corn and beans then anything else. banging out thousands of bee hives that were strong 2 weeks prior is not because of a drought. And actually we had ample moisture in our area compared to some others.


----------



## camero7

Grew up in Southern Colorado. I know what it's like because I had the wheat fields - miles and miles of them around me. But I still don't think all the bee problems are from neonics.


----------



## squarepeg

i can imagine a scenario in which the concention of neonic could rise to toxic levels.

like with the dust cloud, settling on damp soil, the neonic leaching into the soil, and the bees sucking the concentrate while foraging for water.


----------



## camero7

Absolutely agree. The problem many beekeepers faced with the talc powder situation this spring is ample proof of that. It is an insecticide and bees are insects. That being said, I don't think the sucking from wet soil is really likely. Generally the neonics are much safer for bees and humans than the organophosphates of the past.


----------



## squarepeg

camero7 said:


> Absolutely agree. The problem many beekeepers faced with the talc powder situation this spring is ample proof of that. It is an insecticide and bees are insects. That being said, I don't think the sucking from wet soil is really likely. Generally the neonics are much safer for bees and humans than the organophosphates of the past.


safer in low amounts, and vice versa.

maybe some of you ag folks can chime in, but seems like i've read that there are precautions taken when planting to avoid these 'dust clouds'.

it wouldn't be too hard to go downwind after a big planting, and test the soil, the ponds, ect.

i have also read that neonics build up in soil after repeated plantings, again not hard to measure.

i wonder if a safe soil level of neonic been determined?

(and considering bees tend to 'suck' water out rocks and soil rather than sip it directly.)


----------



## beemandan

benstung said:


> Many beekeepers like my self will not have bee's for sale this spring like some years. If there arent nucs and packages and brood for sale where will the small timers get bee's ?


You may have a point here....looks like Rossman is already sold out of packages into May. And here it is only early December.
http://www.gabees.com/store/index.php?cPath=23


----------



## sqkcrk

More reports from PA and NC. What's going on here? More CCD? Or new CCD? Or what?


----------



## squarepeg

what kind of losses are you hearing about mark?


----------



## sqkcrk

66%, 50%losses. Some none.


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## jim lyon

I haven't heard anything recently that's alarming but this business can be a bit like a poker game, the cards don't get layed on the table until early next year. I kind of believe that one of the biggest factors in whether bee losses get noticed isn't as much what's happening as who it's happening to. Getting a little restless and nervous though, i think i will head to the Arklatex next week to do some checking.


----------



## squarepeg

hmmm. mark, has any cause been established for those big losses?


----------



## jim lyon

squarepeg said:


> hmmm. mark, has any cause been established for those big losses?


That would be CCD v2012/13 what else could it be?


----------



## camero7

jim lyon said:


> That would be CCD v2012/13 what else could it be?


My bet is a breakdown in mite treatments. I feel my treatments this August/September were not as effective as past years. No losses yet but some hives are close to collapse.


----------



## sqkcrk

squarepeg said:


> hmmm. mark, has any cause been established for those big losses?


I asked too and "No" was the answer. Everything recommended was done and still lost bees. Normal managment practices and still lost bees.

My NC contact eluded to a Beekeeper returning fromn CA as the source of problems there, but no one really knows.

Where are our investigators? Our Land Grant Colleges and State Apiary Inspection Services? Is this another sign of our times? Fiscal Cliff? What about Bee Cliff?


----------



## swarm_trapper

main cause of losses this year? probably that a main mite treatment chemical is no longer available in the US. I have had at least 2-3 people a week call for bees to buy for the last 2 months they are saying no one has any for sale.


----------



## squarepeg

which main mite chemical would that be trapper?


----------



## swarm_trapper

lol the one that 90% of commercial beekeepers were using.


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI

Rumored to be...... Taktik?.... The chemical that dare not speak it's name?
http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-213617.html


----------



## squarepeg

so what is it, classified information or what?!

go ahead trapper, i have clearance.


----------



## squarepeg

(Fluvalinate).?


----------



## odfrank

>My NC contact eluded to a Beekeeper returning fromn CA as the source of problems

Sure, blame it on us. We liberal Californians are at fault again, you all know it's a Sodom and Gomorrah out here.


----------



## squarepeg

i don't get how a beekeeper returning to nc from california could be a source for a problem.

how does it work?


----------



## camero7

squarepeg said:


> (Fluvalinate).?


amitraz


----------



## loggermike

How does it work?
Easy. They picked up some strange mutated virus in the almonds.That came in from bees from Florida. And the Florida bees got it originally as they traveled through North Carolina. 

Or some variation of the above...lol.

Really, most all of our big die offs can be traced back to mites and the viruses they pack around. Even if you knock the mites back, the viruses will have to run their course. At least thats what I have seen since all these big losses started a few years ago.

Add some spray damage and nosema and we are so screwed.


----------



## squarepeg

so the losses are from viruses vectored via mites. 

bee flu. great.


----------



## delber

sqkcrk said:


> Where are our investigators? Our Land Grant Colleges and State Apiary Inspection Services? Is this another sign of our times? Fiscal Cliff? What about Bee Cliff?


Perhaps I should start a new thread, but since you mentioned it I thought I'd throw it out. Has anyone been inspected in the last 2 years? I talked with a lady at a beekeeping club meeting the fall before I started beekeeping 3 years ago. She said that I'd be inspected every year or at least every 2 years and I haven't seen anyone yet. I even contacted them early this spring and they didn't know who was going to be doing the inspections yet. To me this sounds like another "government run organization" flopping again, but I've heard of others that have spoken very highly about the inspectors. Has something happened in the last 2 years or so that I'm not aware of?


----------



## squarepeg

but i've not heard of either of the two synthetic miticides being pulled from the shelf, has anyone else heard this?

rumor has it the mites are showing measured tolerance to one of them though, is this true?


----------



## camero7

I was inspected in May this year. But that's MA.


----------



## squarepeg

i had to call my inspector out twice, and he came. i have had bee samples for him for a month, and he hasn't had a chance to get by and pick them up yet. we have two for the state, north half and south half.


----------



## camero7

Don't wait. Send them to Beltsville. Free and better anaylsis.


----------



## squarepeg

called beltsville first. they weren't set up to do the sub-species identification. beltsville refered me to tucson, but they never called me back. the state boys said they would be glad to id them, but haven't come by yet.

i could mail the usurpation bees, as they are preserved in alcohol, but i'd rather visit with the apiarist.

the bees with possible nosema are frozen, mailing would again be pain


----------



## sqkcrk

delber said:


> Perhaps I should start a new thread, but since you mentioned it I thought I'd throw it out. Has anyone been inspected in the last 2 years? I talked with a lady at a beekeeping club meeting the fall before I started beekeeping 3 years ago. She said that I'd be inspected every year or at least every 2 years and I haven't seen anyone yet. I even contacted them early this spring and they didn't know who was going to be doing the inspections yet. To me this sounds like another "government run organization" flopping again, but I've heard of others that have spoken very highly about the inspectors. Has something happened in the last 2 years or so that I'm not aware of?


I hear that PA has only one Apiary Inspector. So, unless you need Interstate Transport Papers you probably won't see an Inspector. NY only has two, so Commercial Migratory outfits are all that get looked at, unless a nonmigratory commercial outfit has a problem. Then they will get some attention.


----------



## sqkcrk

squarepeg said:


> but i've not heard of either of the two synthetic miticides being pulled from the shelf, has anyone else heard this?
> 
> rumor has it the mites are showing measured tolerance to one of them though, is this true?


Can you be more specific? Which two synthetic miticides are u refering to?

Mites have been resistant to Apistan(fluvalinate) and Checkmiteplus(chumophous) for quite some time now, having been around since 1987 and 1989 or 90. So, yes, it's true. I don't know of either being pulled from the shelf.

Miticure(amitraz, the active ingredient in TacTik) was take off the shelf by the manufacturer because of Law Suits, not mite resistance. Back in the 1990s.


----------



## apis maximus

Lost about 40% as of right now...I'll be lucky if by the end of winter the losses remain bellow 50%. Did treat this fall...some with Apiguard some with MAQS. Some, I did not treat at all. On the treated ones, very little mite fall outs. In the end, I had losses from every category. 

The only common denominator on all these hives is that by the end of June/mid July, all had at least two 10 F deeps, full of bees...some had 3...literally busting with bees. Coming late fall, some of these hives just melted away. I did not take any honey from the fall flow, so they had plenty of reserves...One week the hive would have bees...next week all gone...disappeared. The only thing left was plenty of reserves ( honey and pollen), and some dead freshly emerged baby bees. Yes, some hives did have the mite poop on the wall of the comb cells, but then again, this was the case in the treated and no treated category. Some of these hives were established hives, some where splits and swarms from early 2012. All were lead by 2012 queens.

If there is a silver lining in this... all the 5 F deep nucs I made in June and built to 2 deeps or 3 deeps by fall...are alive and well. Did treat about 1/2 of them with Apiguard while not treating the other half. So far no difference. 
Hopefully, they will make it and be the base of my 2013 "recovery plan"...


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## rkereid

apis maximus said:


> Lost about 40% as of right now...I'll be lucky if by the end of winter the losses remain bellow 50%.
> 
> The only common denominator on all these hives is that by the end of June/mid July, all had at least two 10 F deeps, full of bees...some had 3...literally busting with bees. Coming late fall, some of these hives just melted away. I did not take any honey from the fall flow, so they had plenty of reserves...One week the hive would have bees...next week all gone...disappeared. The only thing left was plenty of reserves ( honey and pollen), and some dead freshly emerged baby bees. Some of these hives were established hives, some where splits and swarms from early 2012.
> 
> If there is a silver lining in this... all the 5 F deep nucs I made in June and built to 2 deeps or 3 deeps by fall...are alive and well.


I have seen a hair over 20% losses in production hives this fall, mostly the last month. The symptoms are very similar to what you are describing, strong colonies with plenty of stores, mostly honey, very few of the deadouts were fed this year before the crash. Crashed in a period of about 3 weeks abandoning brood on 1 or 2 frames to the sides of the small dead cluster. Pretty certain we're looking at PMS of some sort. The surviving hives appear to be strong and in good shape. My nucs are holding up well, no losses so far. I had about 90 colonies before the crash, half 10 frame, half nucs. One yard lost 75% (small yard, 3 out of 4), one 12 colony yard didn't lose any.


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## sqkcrk

Kim Flottum's Editorial in the Dec. Issue of Bee Culture states that beekeeping isn't sustainable. Things are looking pretty gloomy these days.


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## Beregondo

I'd certainly agree that it is not sustainable the way we have been doing it.

But many of us have been saying that for a while now.


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## delber

Ok So what's the answer / answers? I know MP and others are for nucs for obvious enough reasons, but what else? I am not commercial, but I have also lost 3 hives this year before the end of fall and it seems that the reasons are similar to what's been said. Numbers just tart to dwindle down to next to nothing, then they get robbed out and dead. I realized late summer 2 of them were low on stores so I started feeding and they seemed to be doing well. 10 frame deep box, with 4 solid brood, 2-3 empty and 2-3 capped stores and then they just started losing numbers. (queen was new this year) My nucs are doing well, as is one of my larger hives.


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## sqkcrk

A friend in the Catskills is seeing smaller clusters of bees going into the Winter. Friends he knows are too. What's up w/ that? Dwindling disease?


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## Michael Palmer

sqkcrk said:


> A friend in the Catskills is seeing smaller clusters of bees going into the Winter. Friends he knows are too. What's up w/ that? Dwindling disease?


Poor fall flow, not enough pollen, not enough brood, not enough bees...small clusters?


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## sqkcrk

Maybe it is a forecast of a mild Winter.


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## squarepeg

mine are smaller too, but i didn't feed them this fall. we had lots of forage though, and i'm hoping they have their cluster just the way they want it. time will tell.


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## Ian

sqkcrk said:


> A friend in the Catskills is seeing smaller clusters of bees going into the Winter. Friends he knows are too. What's up w/ that? Dwindling disease?


perhaps higher levels of nosema,.?


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## Roland

My theory is that something changed in the plants the last decade. Just for grins we fed one yard that was failing 4 weeks early. It looked better than most when we put it to bed for the year(winter wrapped).

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

fed protein or syrup


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## Roland

2 gallons of thymolated HFCS, slightly thinned, in an inverted 2 gallon pail. This yard was 6 miles from a yard that had gotten rain and had just filled two deeps each. The fed yard had 1/4 inch brown stripes up the outer edges of the corn leafs, and had not gotten rain.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

why do you think the plants have changed? Perhaps its that the bees are just starving, without the rain


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## papar

I keep a mixture of genetics in each yard. I had one area that didn't get much rain, one apiary managed okay, not much surplus but hives are heavy enough to make it. Another yard several miles away which also didn't see the rain but had crops surounding the farm change from hay fields to corn- ALL the hives in that yard had very small clusters with no surplus honey to speak of


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## jim lyon

papar said:


> I keep a mixture of genetics in each yard. I had one area that didn't get much rain, one apiary managed okay, not much surplus but hives are heavy enough to make it. Another yard several miles away which also didn't see the rain but had crops surounding the farm change from hay fields to corn- ALL the hives in that yard had very small clusters with no surplus honey to speak of


I find posts such as yours informative since it involves first hand and comparative information. The condition of your poorer yard is pretty much in line with what a lot of folks have been seeing in recent years. It dosent, of course, necessarily mean that the corn is any more the problem than the lack of a honey flow. Across our outfit this fall I could pretty much unequivocally state that larger cluster size was in direct proportion to how heavy the late summer and fall flow was.


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## Roland

Ian - we have records back to the 1930's. Mostly when queens where clipped, supers put on, extracted, fed, and wrapped. Timing is WAY off now. The "Bull of the Woods" agrees that the fall flow to build bees for winter is gone. The other clue is that some of the best flows in the past 4 years have been plants that never produced a surplus before, Red Maple, Wild Cherry, Something in early June, Chicory?. The "Normal" plants, alfalfa, Sweet clover and Goldenrod have been failures lately. In years past, if you saw a field of anything in bloom, there would be a honey flow. Now it is safer to assume they are all empty.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

I don't find that up here at all. 
Clovers, canola, alfalfa, they are all producing, weather depending of course.
alot of our flows depend on the farming function it self. If seeding get weather delayed, we will have long honey flows, big honey crops, but other years the entire crop will be sewed in a couple of weeks. Same with alfalfa, I can have a good flow going, but there are times when all the farmers cut it ALL down in a week, flow ended.

I chuckle sometimes, I make my living off of farmers who dont get their work done in a timely fashion
that farmer is my farms sometimes lol


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## wildbranch2007

I agree with Roland 100%, when I first started with bees in Mass. during the golden rod flow i got the smelly sock smell. We had 3 years of drought and I noticed that the 4th year with normal rain, the sock didn't smell. I watched one specific field of golden rod over the years go from being totally yellow to now when I drive by it, it has very little golden rod, yet hasn't been overgrown with trees etc.

When I moved to n.y. was amazed the first year, I was back in golden rod heaven. I help another beek pull his honey, his best yard over the last 10 years has become his worst. We were discussing it after pulling honey and driving away from the yard, I said look at the fields, 10 years ago they were all goldenrod when I moved here, now the napp weed has taken over all the fields around here(not the same problem in Mass. as the areas I watch still don't have napp weed). Now napp weed makes a fine honey, but from what I can see golden rod makes alot more honey per acre and the napp weed slows down blooming so you pull most of it and with little or no golden rod the hives end up lighter. I have adjusted my pulling of honey(even though my buddy says I'm crazy) to the 1st of sept when the golden rod is just really starting to produce and my hives go into winter heavy, costs me honey production. Now when I first moved up here, none of the beeks I know had feeders, now more of them are making and using them.

The other thing that is changing up here is what was normally the white clover time for a honey flow seems to be drying up. I have three yards that 3 years ago started producing a brownish honey after bass wood honey was pulled but b/4 chineese bambo comes in, my buddy is 76 and had never seen it b/4, gave some to our resident tast tester and he can't identify it, now there hasn't been any obvious changes in the crops in the area, so we assume that they are working something that was always there but not what they prefered to work, so what is it? where did the prefered weed go? this area also is deficient in golden rod bloom and these three yards need to be fed each year.

Another beek on another forum that normally is very observant has stated over many times, the state he is in 30 years ago got a golden rod flow every year, now he is lucky to get one once in 10 years. What is causing it?? good question. things they are always changing, new weeds, lots of my golden rod has turned into corn when the price of milk went up, all the WHIPS land I spent time finding and getting locations on is now being farmed, my buddy has started to shrink his yards down to smaller yards like I have because of the changes, I watch alot of the commercial yards around and they aren't cutting down the # of hives per location so I would expect there lb's per hive is going down while they are in N.Y.


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## delber

I wonder how much GMO and other chemicals both sprayed on crops, generally all over (I even read in Pa of the state game lands being sprayed with something a year or two ago to curb gypsi moth infestations) along with planes. There's now apparantly aluminum and berillium in the ground which would change what can grow readilly in our soil. Would this all explain why 20+ years ago the forrage was different and better?


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## dgl1948

Ian said:


> .....
> Clovers, canola, alfalfa, they are all producing, weather depending of course.
> {/QUOTE]
> 
> I agree 100%. If the alfalfa and clover gets cut when it should the flow comes to an end about the time it starts. If it is a late cut we get a real good flow. Wind and rain when the canola is flowering will cut down flowering time. I do not think it is the flowers that are changing, more it is the farming practice. A few years ago in our part of the country we would have 20 farmers seeding canola over a period of several days and this would spread out the flow. Now we have a couple of farmers seeding the same farms in a day or two and this sure changes the amount of days the bees get to harvest. In our part of the world the types of crops being seeded has changed as well. We went from a sea of wheat to a world of yellow. Now we are seeing more beans and corn entering the picture. A lot of farmers here are getting up in years so we see herds of cattle now gone and with that so goes the alfalfa and clovers.
> 
> I agree also Ian, those farmers that cannot get their work done in a timely fashion are a beekeepers best friend.


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## doc25

I noticed this year because of the lack of moisture/dry fields that pretty much all the alfalfa was cut shortly after the blooming started as well. High winds were hard on the canola as well. We seem to have been hit with a fall dearth instead of a flow. I have some mixed bush around here and the bees used the wildflowers to keep going. It seems that the bees run out of forage long before the no fly weather starts. Big advantage to overwintering indoors is being able to feed during the winter if necessary.


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## soupcan

Our entire area made a better than average honey crop ( 1st one in over 15 years )
We sit in with corn, beans & a little alfalfa. What CRP didn't get cut & rolled up for hay this summer is now getting broke up to be planted into row crop next year.
The entire outfit sat on ground that had less than 3 inches of rain from April to October, so yes very dry conditions.
As I said before one yard will have a 80% loss & 5 miles down the road the loss is less than 10%.
Cluster size is all over the map in the yards that are left, but remember every yard made a good crop with honey being made untill frost.
We even did a very intresting testing this year with genitics in a yard of singles. Very amazed as to what breeders queens did & what they made for a honey crop & that includes our own queens.
Never the less at this point in time none are looking any to great for the few that are left alive.
Then ya have the comb honey bees here near the city. They are in with corn, beans, & alfalfa as the rest of the outfit way west of here. They look great. with huge clusters & no losses.
Our USDA testing on dead bees, honey, pollen & wax showed only that a comment from the lab that our tests were very clean, some of the cleanest tests the lab has done in quite some time for lack of chemicals in any of the testing they did.
Ok so last item to think about is a thought I might as well start a yard of Russians out in one of our locations that is way off in the sticks. So in calling one of the listed breeders of the Russian program I explained what I had for a plan that I spoke of above. He was very intrested & liked what I had in mind & then told me that he was not so sure the Russians would be a cure all for my bee loss problems. His story was that this past season he pollinated blueberries. The bees that were used on blueberries for the most part were all gone, dead & what was left living were probably not going to make it untill spring. 
He explained that the bees had been fine for quite some time after removed for the blueberries but they never really looked right from pollination time on. And now there is nothing but empty boxes to look at!


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## Ian

It was a very challenging late summer fall this year. To figure out which yard to feed and which yard to super up,.! I called it the thunder storm lottery. I had yard that I was a week too late on feeding, hurt the cluster size by the time October rolled around. Other yards 10 miles away I was trying to figure if they needed supers on, and they did! I thought a plugged brood nest was going to hurt me, but by the time Nov came, those were the largest wintering hives. 

I like years were they are bringing in nectar straight into September, so much easier on the nerves


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## Ian

soupcan said:


> The bees that were used on blueberries for the most part were all gone, dead & what was left living were probably not going to make it untill spring.
> He explained that the bees had been fine for quite some time after removed for the blueberries but they never really looked right from pollination time on. And now there is nothing but empty boxes to look at!


Soupcan, isnt that a classic case of mal nutrition ? Blueberries are notorious for that


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## adamf

Hi, this is a very interesting thread! :applause:


I have read with great interest how nectar seems to be less plentiful then in decades past and I've noticed that too.

My daughter sent me a link to a site that shows a daily hodge-podge of links and movies from around the 'net. I was glancing at one link and this caught my eye:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=79800


I then dug around and found this link:


http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2000/ast15nov_1/


There's certainly less dark then there used to be and plants are photoperiodic.
We certainly have much less darkness then we did even ten years ago.

Might be baloney too. I thought the photos and description of the changes interesting and post-worthy.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## soupcan

Doubt it, when there are no bees left in the box & some were still over half full of honey.


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## Ian

but mal nutrition does not have a lot to do with the carbs, its more protein related. 
And you do not see that effect of mal nutrition til a generation of two after the fact, 
Big hive working hard, maybe even bringing in boxes of honey will completely crash is its nutritional requirements are not met.
Blueberry pollen, = deficit of nutritional value


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## Ian

I would even suggest the same with any plant that is mal nourished, it will provide pollen lacking in nourishment. 
Perhaps that is a problem that is becoming evident with our protein sources being yielded off of fields lacking in proper crop nutrition. 
I know for a fact that the soils that we are farming here are lacking many trace minerals that it once always had. Our farm relieves that problem with a manure rotation over much of the farm.


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## soupcan

The bees that were on blueberries for pollination were sprayed at least one time with fungicide.


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## Ian

AND blueberry pollen has little to no nutritional value to it, leading most hives on those crops to mal nutrition,
Look at the bigger picture, its not always out side factors taking hives down, 
sometimes its as basic and natural and predicable as you can get it

Most every time there is a drought, if we are not quick on the feed, we have suffering hives, thats natural
the bees food source is stressed , leading to lower quality of feed produced by the plants

I see this in our cattle operation, with our silage 
We have our feed tested and analysed every season, every year brings different requirements.
This year our protien was lacking a bit, and also our calcuim. So we have had to supplement protien and calcuim to meet our cattle dietary feed requirments. Why was the calcuim and protien down this year? Lots of factors but the bottom line is that we needed to supplement to meet those requirements.

Why would it be any different with bees? I think we expect way too much from nature herself. We demand performance every season from our bees and expect nature to be able to provide us with all those requirements predicably every season. We need to be more aware of whats happening in our hives


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## soupcan

IAN 
PLEASE read my entire posts again. As I pray you sir do not have to go thru the the same " stuff " we are going thru here in the states.
Your implication seems to be that we do not know as to what is going on in our hives or for the most part what is going on around us & for the most part the bees.
I am a farm boy at heart & know cattle & hogs.
I just seem to know a wee bit more about bees than livestock.


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## Ian

I have, and dont think you see the obvious 

Your Russian friend commented
>>The bees that were used on blueberries for the most part were all gone, dead & what was left living were probably not going to make it untill spring. 
He explained that the bees had been fine for quite some time after removed for the blueberries but they never really looked right from pollination time on. And now there is nothing but empty boxes to look at!

I suggested 
>>isnt that a classic case of mal nutrition ? Blueberries are notorious for that

and you suggested 
>>Doubt it, when there are no bees left in the box & some were still over half full of honey.

I know guys in blueberry pollination, they feed sub right through the bloom


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## Ian

Mal nourishment + nosema =


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## delber

Sorry for a relatively new beekeeper question here. . . On hives that aren't in blueberry pollination, but are left in the same yard. How do you tell if there's some sort of malnutrition in the hive? There's no way that I know of, other than using a microscope, to tell what pollen they're bringing in. I have seen hives this year dwindle to finally die out. They had some pollen and stores while they were going down. If it was malnutrition I'd like to have some way to be able to see this as it's happening so I can stop it before I have a hive that dies out. It didn't appear to be mites either as the hives that I'm referring to were nucs started late June early July and had a 3-4 week break in brood. ( I have one hive that I used to start queens, let them rear them and then broke the hive up with the queens they reared. One in question was doing great w/ 4 deep frames of brood in all stages looking fabulous.)


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## soupcan

I guess we would be considered small commercial beekeepers.
We operate in a strip that is aprox 50 miles by 30 miles. I know darn small by many standards now a days. We could run more but found out years ago it wasn't about the number of boxes you had out in the field ( hives ) but the number of bees you kept in those boxes. And with that thought in mind I really feel we do a better job of running the number hives we run. 
I remember the so called CCD thing all to well & this spring I thought to myself what have we done as beeks to make this problem disapear. Well guess what " I'm Back " and or " Find me if you can " 
In the past 90 days I think I have spoke to the best of the best in the bee business world, researchers & beekeepers alike. And I have come away with probably more questions now than before. A little education can be dangerous I am told but the questions & facts still linger and can not be ignored.
Us beeks are I feel have always been in this alone, very alone as we are such a small minority in todays world. 
Get over it and move on or ????
Someone will have to go probably hungry to change the course of this ship we all seem to be on, but then again that may be to late I fear!


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## Ian

I found the same thing in regards to your comments about finding differences in performances related to queen breeding genetics. I think I read into your comment correctly,
I ran 4 or 5 different breedings of queens this year, and I can directly associate better performing hives to a couple of breeders we used. I have always found that generally the breeders provided much the same performance quality and characteristics over the last number of years. This year I had a couple of breeders really significantly stand apart from the others. Was this an overall queen health issue, I dont know. 
Ill see if I see the same next year.


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## Ian

delber said:


> How do you tell if there's some sort of malnutrition in the hive?


I dont know either, and Im making a comment generally towards other pollen producing plant in reference to what we know about blueberry pollen nutritional value and from my experience in finding variable year to year nutritional feed values in livestock feed. 
Im suggesting, why would we not expect to find the same nutritional variability in plant pollen from one normal year to the next extreme hot drought year,.? It certainly was on my mind all summer this year.

I know guys around here are starting to feed their bees sub during the late summer early fall months where as that was basically un heard of around here. Is there a nutrient deficit in our soils where as we did not have years past? Are the plants changing as modern day agriculture shifts towards different breeding of plants? Or is it just the plain a simple fact that our bees are under attack by many more pathogens now and absolutely require to be in tip top shape to be able to winter properly,...


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## delber

Thanks Ian. Perhaps there's answers elsewhere that may help? I have also read (Mainly I think on Michael Bush's site) that pollen sub isn't as good as "real" pollen that they bring in. Is it better to perhaps trap pollen in the spring to feed back to them later?


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## JBJ

delber said:


> Sorry for a relatively new beekeeper question here. . . On hives that aren't in blueberry pollination, but are left in the same yard. How do you tell if there's some sort of malnutrition in the hive?


Analysis of the fat bodies and vitelogenin levels are probably the best measurement of nutrition levels in the hive.


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## sqkcrk

Is that what you do JBJ? I don't. I determine whether my bees are in a good location by whetehr they thrive in a healthy manner and produce brood and surplus honey. That's why I don't keep very many colonies hee at home. The necassary forage is not available. I found this out by keeping bees on this location, not by analysis of fat bodies and vitelogenn. I don't know how one does such analysis.

On the other hand, technically you are probably correct, but realistically? Economically? Easily?


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## Ian

sqkcrk said:


> On the other hand, technically you are probably correct, but realistically? Economically? Easily?


Never use to be done with livestock feeds, now its done on an ongoing basis,
perhaps it will also be done in bees, I doubt it but makes a person think


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## soupcan

Sorry guys but I do think we are missing the point here big time.
We should not need to feed bees during a nectar & pollen flow, we never used to and so what has changed????
I will share this from my findings, one main item of intrest I have been told is that there has been no testing of fungicides on bees, & none required.
So let us ask that question of who ????
Or let us have a look at the testing if it has in fact been done. Very easy & real simple & right to the point. 
No I have no proof of any thing at this point just some ideas from my farmer friends that can not be ignored.
So are these products used in Canada?


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## JBJ

sqkcrk said:


> Is that what you do JBJ? I don't. I determine whether my bees are in a good location by whetehr they thrive in a healthy manner and produce brood and surplus honey. That's why I don't keep very many colonies hee at home. The necassary forage is not available. I found this out by keeping bees on this location, not by analysis of fat bodies and vitelogenn. I don't know how one does such analysis.
> 
> On the other hand, technically you are probably correct, but realistically? Economically? Easily?


Well good field observations are always the first line of defense, however there is so much blood and treasure at risk in a large commercial operation this would be valuable information to know in order to eliminate inaccurate assumptions. This also could be away to actually determine the affects of pollen sub in the bee diet. Randy's article http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/ is a pretty good introduction on the subject. It would be nice to to be able to have this analysis done at the bee labs or do it ourselves in a similar manner that we can look at Nosema spores. Anybody know the "how to" for analyzing the fat bodies?
Plant tissue analysis is common in horticulture for diagnosing nutrition problems. We really should be able to do this for bees. It could eliminated guesswork before failure to thrive kicks in. Eishcen's work has shown great nutrition as the major factor in how a hive is able to deal with mites and Nosema. Imunocompetance is highly dependent on nutrition so we need a reliable methodology for accurately assessing BEFORE problems kick in.


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## dgl1948

soupcan said:


> Sorry guys but I do think we are missing the point here big time.
> We should not need to feed bees during a nectar & pollen flow, we never used to and so what has changed????
> I will share this from my findings, one main item of intrest I have been told is that there has been no testing of fungicides on bees, & none required.
> So let us ask that question of who ????
> Or let us have a look at the testing if it has in fact been done. Very easy & real simple & right to the point.
> No I have no proof of any thing at this point just some ideas from my farmer friends that can not be ignored.
> So are these products used in Canada?


Yes and many other chemicals as well.


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## Roland

Wildbranch - one of the oldtimers blames acid rain for the change in the plants. Do you think there is any possibility it has had an effect?

Delber - feed a few hives sugar, pollen sub, and Sugar and pollen sub. See what happens.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

soupcan said:


> Sorry guys but I do think we are missing the point here big time.
> We should not need to feed bees during a nectar & pollen flow, we never used to and so what has changed????
> I will share this from my findings, one main item of intrest I have been told is that there has been no testing of fungicides on bees, & none required.
> ....
> So are these products used in Canada?


Soupcan, or who ever you really are, come on, your talking in the commercial beekeeping forum, why hide behind a tag name,

agricultural crop land fungicides have been used for nearly 20 years, on our farm anyway
has there been a formulation change, or a change in carrier within the last 5 years to start causing all of our bee troubles ?
It is fungicides your blaming, right?


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## wildbranch2007

Roland said:


> Wildbranch - one of the oldtimers blames acid rain for the change in the plants. Do you think there is any possibility it has had an effect?
> 
> 
> Crazy Roland


I'm no expert but that would be one possibility, the north east has had that problem forever but why would it be less of a problem in N.Y. ? Since in Mass. it started before GM, neonics, etc and b/4 they started telling us about global warming etc. Heck it could be some disease of golden rod, nobody would bother to look and most people would be happy.
I wish I knew where my neighbors kids were living now, they were so alergic to golden rod, wonder how bad there alergies are now, less goldenrod less alergies?
I observe these things going on, but don't really spend much time thinking about it as other than moving bees, not a thing I can do about it. I did propose gathering napp weed seeds and replanting the goldenrod fields, but got severe repremands about nasty weeds Heck it could be as Ian says, the goldenrod has been growing there for ever, mayby it finally used up some nutrients that it requires, actually makes more sense than most ideas. I watch farmers up here that don't rotate crops and keep putting on more and more fertilizer and getting less and less crops, what ever happened to leaving a field fallow for a year. the bees would probably start doing better.


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## wildbranch2007

Ian said:


> your talking in the commercial beekeeping forum


Not being commercial but beeing observant, some comments that I would like to make is from what I have read/heard about, to me it seems that the same outfits seem to be the ones that are always crashing. A previous post says Hackenburg has allready lost 30% of his hives by Dec. from what I have read and heard, this happens every year. He keeps campaigning against neonics but has stated that he doesn't due pollination of, for instance, vine crops any more to stay away from the neonics, yet his losses continue. I'm stationary, knock on wood, haven't seen the same problems, randy olivers articles and some beeks on this formum from the corn belt don't have problems. Most beeks that I know that lose alot of hives locally, either don't treat or treat to late for mites.
When the government made taktic hard to get I suddenly saw many larger beeks asking how to use formic/apiguard asking basic question so I have to make the assumption that they were using taktic before? My guess, and only a guess is now that they have made the strips from canada legal in a few states down here, that actually the commercial problems will get worse not better as the strips contain a lower % of active ingredients. The smaller comercial people I have met that say they aren't/haven't used tactic seem to be doing fine.
One of the problems with pollen "could" be (I read this somewhere but will probably get it wrong so feel free to correct, I can't remember if it was the BT gene, but whatever monsanto used to make round up ready) the transfer from the altered corn/cotton/soybeans to the weeds. The weeds are becoming roundup ready, could it be this that is changing the polllen?
And the list could go on and on, but it's the last day of deer season, so off in the rain to hang around in a tree. The thread was getting a little slow.


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## Ian

wildbranch2007 said:


> One of the problems with pollen "could" be (I read this somewhere but will probably get it wrong so feel free to correct, I can't remember if it was the BT gene, but whatever monsanto used to make round up ready) the transfer from the altered corn/cotton/soybeans to the weeds. The weeds are becoming roundup ready, could it be this that is changing the polllen?
> And the list could go on and on, but it's the last day of deer season, so off in the rain to hang around in a tree. The thread was getting a little slow.


The only weeds that are crossing with the roundup ready gene is with the wild mustards, and its not the BT gene. Could possibly be the change in crop breeding thats providing an inferior pollen, yet, you would think the anti Monsanto lobby groups would of jumped on that one if it were the case. 

I enjoy reading your insight Mike !


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## sqkcrk

Roland said:


> Wildbranch - one of the oldtimers blames acid rain for the change in the plants. Do you think there is any possibility it has had an effect?
> 
> Delber - feed a few hives sugar, pollen sub, and Sugar and pollen sub. See what happens.
> 
> Crazy Roland


What about the changes in agriculture and the dairy farming practices. The St. Lawrence Valley of NY used to be the prime honey producing region of NY, producing huge crops of water white clover honey. But that was when there were hundreds of small family farms, not huge ones like today, and the cows grazed on the pastures. So there was plenty of bee forage too. Fencerows and hedgerows existed more so providing a greater variety of pollen and nectar producing plants.

So, acid rain probably contributes to the problem, but, I bet it is more complex than we as individuals can imagine. And there is no turning back. It's not economically feasible.


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## loggermike

Just a comment on fungicides. There is research now showing problems with some of them .One problem seems to be a synergistic effect when some varroa chems are being used, causing both chemicals to be much more toxic to bees and brood.

I know that several N Cal bee breeders feel that the fungicides now being used on almond bloom are causing problems in cell viability.One is holding cell building hives out of almonds and another is trapping clean pollen in the mountains to feed to early cell builders. I have seen bees killed by the fungicide spraying that takes place in broad daylight during full bloom. but I think the worse damage comes later , after bloom, when the bees dig into there stores of almond pollen. I have seen bees pile up in front of hives , making me wonder if there was pesticide residues in the spray tanks when the fungicide was sprayed.All hard to prove, and like most of these bee losses no really obvious answer.

http://westernfarmpress.com/fungicides-can-reduce-hinder-pollination-potential-honey-bees


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## squarepeg

my state apiarist came by today to pick up bee samples i had collected of some usurping bees, and some from a varroa dead out that i was interested in having checked for nosema.

i asked him about 2012 losses, and he said that they probably were up some from last year.

he felt like it was most likely from the ineffective treatment of varroa, and from not preventing the spread of varroa from collapsing hives to other hives.


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## LSPender

ANd how are feelings are important, who gives a rip about feelings!!!

I want tangible evidence to see, a lot of people seem to revert to mites when in doubt.

So again today I went on a mission to find some

Today I dug thru a sick hive, scraped every capped brood and shook out larva on lid, what did I find NOTHING , not a single varroa mite in sight, NADA, ZIPO, ZERO!

I then checked bees, no mites at all!!

Bee samples are being sent to BVS tomorrow for virus testing.

This hive iwas down to 1 1/2 frames of bees, and going nowhere, now its totaly dead because I want to know what is happening.

I have had a high number of losses this year and the only place I have found mite in are a few strong hives. And yes they are still strong.

So my mission continues


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## squarepeg

sorry for your losses larry.

nosema ceranae?

let us know what beltsville says.


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## Ian

Larry, I had a yard fall also, mite counts satisfactory, 
I did some testing on the bees in that yard and found high levels of nosema

My nosema testing for my overall operation was low, just this one yard spiking for some reason

I also found one queen in a failinghive and tested tested her along with my bee samples, being freshly put in that spring, and from a rumor that outfit may have had a nosema issue, but the queen came back absolutely clean


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## Roland

SQKCRK - we are in the kettle moraine, an area of terminal moraines, rather hilly, but good soil. We still have mostly small family farms, and alot of milk production. The Bull f the Woods did complain of the invention of the hay crimper in the 60's, which effected alfalfa cutting nad hence honey production.

We still have considerable fence rows and road sides that SHOULD bloom in Sweet Clover, and sometimes do, but often produce no nectar, unlike a couple decades ago.

Our area is not unlike Sheri's, but more hilly. Maybe she can provide some opinions.

Crazy Roland


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## benstung

So LSpender these hives that you are checking were once strong. I mean they made it this far?
During the summer the mites build with the hive and just after the brood rearing slows in late summer the mites take over and the bees leave, carrying the mites with them. Doing anything they can to save the colony.
If you look very close you can see dead mites in the dead larvae. 

If you have a strong hive that is making honey and its July, are you really going to test for mites?? no, mite testing was done months ago.

Farmers stepped up their spraying last summer also, due to the high bug survival of the previous mild winter.


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## jim lyon

loggermike said:


> Just a comment on fungicides. There is research now showing problems with some of them .One problem seems to be a synergistic effect when some varroa chems are being used, causing both chemicals to be much more toxic to bees and brood.
> 
> I know that several N Cal bee breeders feel that the fungicides now being used on almond bloom are causing problems in cell viability.One is holding cell building hives out of almonds and another is trapping clean pollen in the mountains to feed to early cell builders. I have seen bees killed by the fungicide spraying that takes place in broad daylight during full bloom. but I think the worse damage comes later , after bloom, when the bees dig into there stores of almond pollen. I have seen bees pile up in front of hives , making me wonder if there was pesticide residues in the spray tanks when the fungicide was sprayed.All hard to prove, and like most of these bee losses no really obvious answer.
> 
> http://westernfarmpress.com/fungicides-can-reduce-hinder-pollination-potential-honey-bees


That's a really meaningful link Mike. You also gave a lot of good insights on this issue. I know I have seen some of these issues with our bees coming out of the Almonds and into east Texas. They always seem to recover pretty quickly for us but perhaps that is because there is plenty of fresh pollen coming in down there at that time and given the fact that we are not using any other mite chemicals at the time might well also aid in their rapid recovery. Bees being moved into a dearth and with different management techniques might well continue to decline.


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## Ian

ya, at our last beekeeping convention we listened to a speaker on this issue. I dont have the details but their studdy showed some real interesting findings, especially the synergistic effect between the chemical residues between mite chemicals within the hive and then being exposed to an outside toxin. The outside influence which would of otherwise been benign all of a sudden became very lethal when brought into the hive and exposed to our mite treatment residues. The specifically targeted fluvalinate, coumophose, and a couple of fungicides, 
Ill try to dig up my notes on that talk, 

they also spoke on irradiation, and showed some interesting results in regards to sterilizing bee boxes. The irradiation killed all the bacteria and helped in regards to AFB but they found hives that were irradiated trended to higher infections of Deformed Wing Virus and other bee related viruses. Why? THey dont know, but they ended the talk suggesting that there may be some kind of living function within the honeybee nest which would typically help suppress infections like viral infections. With the boxes being sterilized, that function may be removed allowing the viral infection to express itself. Perhaps there is a pathogenic interaction within the nest itself which actually helps the bees ward off disease 

Just some thoughts


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## soupcan

Logger Mike, you sir are correct & yes I am very aware of the Calif. Queen Breeders feeding of pollen to cell builders that had been exposed to fungicides. This is the reason many operations are not going to almonds any longer due to a lost cycle brood or two after bees are shipped back to Texas. Many have had to quit splitting bees in mid term due to the lack of brood in the hives some weeks after almonds are done blooming. Others have kept close tabs on the bees comming from almonds and records have shown a loss on average of at least 1 box of honey. So honey is over 2 bucks in the can & the rest of the math is real simple to figure when you don't go to almonds. As I am told it's heck of a nice pay check for the job but then is it worth it when some time bees are so beat up they can not be split. 
My thoughts are then I would have to ask as to how many research dollars or then again tax dollars are spent on " feelings "
What really causes nosema???


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## wildbranch2007

Ian said:


> The only weeds that are crossing with the roundup ready gene is with the wild mustards!



I had to go look for the article I had read about weeds being resistent to roundup


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/business/energy-environment/04weed.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


The first resistant species to pose a serious threat to agriculture was spotted in a Delaware soybean field in 2000. Since then, the problem has spread, with 10 resistant species in at least 22 states infesting millions of acres, predominantly soybeans, cotton and corn

Now, Roundup-resistant weeds like horseweed and giant ragweed are forcing farmers to go back to more expensive techniques that they had long ago abandoned. 

Mr. Anderson, the farmer, is wrestling with a particularly tenacious species of glyphosate-resistant pest called Palmer amaranth, or pigweed, whose resistant form began seriously infesting farms in western Tennessee only last year

Randy oliver also commented on it in one of his articles I think.

as to how it could affect pollen I found the following:

http://passel.unl.edu/pages/informa...module=959031259&topicorder=6&maxto=9&minto=1

The backup enzyme can be compared to a detour route around road construction. Cars are still able to get to their destination, but the traffic moves slower. In the same way, the backup enzyme provides an alternate pathway for amino acid synthesis to continue. However, the pathway may not be as efficient and thus unable to produce as many amino acids. This can result in a slight decrease in yield especially if Roundup is applied at high rates. <---with resistance their might be less amino acids?


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## Ian

Those cases of round up resistance are coming from the same natural mechanism of selection pressure as every other weed forming resistance to its applied herbicide. 
Specifically wild mustard has the ability to cross pollinate with canola, which in some cases has bred round up resistance. But that is arguable. We have not had any RR wild mustard cases on our farm. In fact, we have not found any cases of round up resistance in any weeds on our farm as of yet, but in time, as the selection pressures increase, and the weed spectrum change, we may well find some of those resistant weeds also.

having the ability to treat for weeds with roundup, to which were very expensive to treat for previously, has been a huge economical benefit to farmers in the short run. Even now, if the weeds have formed resistance, and the farmers have to go back, the weeds have not changed in any way other than not being killed off by roundup. So it would simply be back to old business


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## jim lyon

What we have seen much more than roundup resistance are weeds that emerge later and later in the season and may not even clear the existing canopies. An annual corn/bean rotation with some good ole Atrazine continues to do a pretty good job of weed control though.


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## wildbranch2007

the only point I was trying to make about the transfer is
In the same way, the backup enzyme provides an alternate pathway for amino acid synthesis to continue. However, the pathway may not be as efficient and thus unable to produce as many amino acids
the weeds that now have resistance to roundup have had there enzyme's altered and the new pathway is not as efficient and doesn't produce as many amino acids. The bees get amino acids from the pollen, heck I'm not even sure if any of the 10 weeds give pollen to the bees. But if they do is it a problem??
as far as Atrazine goes I hope they keep using roundup, they had runnoff from a field go into an organic farm up here, the last time they had used atrazine in the field was many many years ago, when they analyzed the dirt had very high concentrations of atrazine.

I don't see any weeds up here, or down here for the canadian beeks, that survive roundup, but I'm sure they don't use it as much as some of the larger acreage planting in your areas. But thinking about it, if the enzyme gets altered, I would assume that they could also get altered, cause the same amino acid problem but not be resistent to roundup, but after wading through that last link I ain't going there again.


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## wildbranch2007

soupcan said:


> My thoughts are then I would have to ask as to how many research dollars or then again tax dollars are spent on " feelings "


here is a post on bee-l about presentations his company is going to provide at two of the three national conventions.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1212&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=188327

We will be presenting the results of two years of wide area survey work 
concerning exposure levels to clothianidin to honey bees in the corn belt 
(Illinois, Indiana, and Nebraska) and in the canola seed production areas near 
Lethbridge, Canada. 

and from what I have read before, they don't have access to tax $ normally.

here is some research from India that indicates that some naturally liquids that may be used on hives that will help the brood. I'm not sure how long it will take our liberal government to approve the methods though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iowt6WPekA


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## Michael Palmer

I understand that Paul Cappy, NY Chief Apiculturist, just inspected an operation that lost 2800 of 3800 colonies. any other NY, or Northeast beekeepers seeing losses like this?


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## squarepeg

those are devastating losses mike. my heartfelt sympathy to the owner(s). please update us with any findings as to the cause(s).


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## Keth Comollo

Michael Palmer said:


> I understand that Paul Cappy, NY Chief Apiculturist, just inspected an operation that lost 2800 of 3800 colonies. any other NY, or Northeast beekeepers seeing losses like this?


That sounds quite serious. Hopefully the cause is preventable!


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## sqkcrk

Michael Palmer said:


> I understand that Paul Cappy, NY Chief Apiculturist, just inspected an operation that lost 2800 of 3800 colonies. any other NY, or Northeast beekeepers seeing losses like this?


Been talking to Ted?

How could Paul Cappy do that? Governor Cuomo put such a kiabosh on travel that Paul couldn't attend the espa Fall Mtng a month ago. Maybe you aught to check w/ Paul. I'm sure he would be glad to talk to you about it.

If he did, you must be refering to D***'s Honey Farms. Out in the western part of NY where gthe veggies grow.


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## wildbranch2007

two post from bee-l about losses
http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1212&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=218302

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1212&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=219553


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## Ian

Hearing through the Canadian grape vine there is are Almond brokers short for this years pollination contracts.

What say you ?


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## busy bee apiary

Can't say I've heard of a broker that deals 80,000+ hives.


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## jim lyon

I havent heard any alarm bells going off yet but January is the month when think start to shake out. Stay tuned.


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## Ian

Im hearing of pollination prices of over $200 per hive, 
does that sound out of line?


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## sqkcrk

For what and for how many?

I know honey packers who say that their price for white honey is $2.50/lb, but they aren't buying any. Maybe that's the same thing here.


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## jim lyon

Ian said:


> Im hearing of pollination prices of over $200 per hive,
> does that sound out of line?


Well that is what was reported in the most recent ABJ. No one that I have talked to has any idea where that number came from though. My guess is they bit on a planted story but who knows.......except maybe Keith.


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## The Honey Householder

Is it just me or is there a lot more hives being put up for sale coming out of almonds this year. Maybe I'm miss something here. I just buy bees not bees in equipment. Sorry I haven't been keeping up with this whole tread, but I would say I haven't seen any of these problem in the 30+ years. Ofcourse my producer don't sent his bees to almonds.:digging:


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## swarm_trapper

Ron the number of bees for sale after almonds looks normal to me. The amount of beekeepers needing to buy bees before almonds was quite astonishing! I had 300 for sale and long after they were gone i was still getting a call a day for bees no one had any to sell. I know of bees right now being sold for 190 a single before almonds and they i think are sold out last week! My guess is almonds might be on the short side this year.
Nick


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## The Honey Householder

WOW! Nick is that $190 by the load. Better quit shaking them out in the snow then. Had one today with 7 frames of bees, but every little feed left. Just to bad they all didn't look that good. Been to warm this winter. 1 out of 15 isn't worth trying to save. Cost way to much in gas to waste it on just running around to feed a few hives.:digging:


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## swarm_trapper

yup a load of 650 or so fob FL


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## Almondralf

It sounds like it will turn out the same as the last few years. By mid Jan. everybody is talking about a shortage of bees for almonds and by the 10th of Feb. there is a surplus and the beekeepers who havent placed their bees yet beg you on their knees to take them for half price!


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Ron, didn't you sell your shook out bees last year? Were there no takers this year?


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## The Honey Householder

Didn't sell this year. Had a long fall flow and worked them for everything. With the price of honey be where it's at, I had to give it a try. Produced an extra 9 ton by doing so. That worked out to a 20 lb avg. extra, which is about double what I would have sold the bees for. 

Sometimes it pays to the roll the dice.:banana::wiener:


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## benstung

I know that my broker only got half the bees they got last year from the same beekeepers. so that must be saying something.
i would like to here more about the prices????? 
As of now it looks about the same as last year, around $150


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## Keith Jarrett

jim lyon said:


> .......except maybe Keith.


Ahh, heck yeah Jimmy, skies the limit. lol I got to have a talk with Barry, the Icon popcorn & guy digging his own pit are great .... But we need to add a flock of turkeys as well.


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## Ian

and a smiley face with dollar sign eyes


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## loggermike

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...ter/almond-grower-newsletter-january-10-2013/
>>2013 Bee Supply
As we do every January, we will be making last-minute adjustments in our bee supply, cutting and filling as winter bee losses come into focus. Our + or – 5% on the number of bee colonies you contract with as allows us to book +5%, then cut back to -5% should conditions warrant.

Current Bee Problems
Getting strong bee colonies for almonds (8 to 10 frames of bees) will be a much tougher task for the 2013 season than it has been in recent years, for two main reasons. 1. loss of the most effective chemical for varroa mite control. 2. poor bee forage last year due to drought conditions in most bee areas.

The varroa mite has been the scourge of beekeeping since it was first found in the U.S. in 1987. Varroa mites not only kill or weaken honey bees directly, but also spread deadly viruses from bee to bee, from colony to colony and from apiary to apiary. The most effective varroa control chemical became unavailable in 2012 because the overseas manufacturer stopped production. Beekeepers that stockpiled the material in 2011 got good varroa control in 2012, but some beekeepers had to use alternate materials and found their colonies weakened to the point where many perished or were too far gone to nurse back to almond pollinating strength. There is a crying need for effective varroa-control products. The difficulty in controlling this pernicious pest with approved products is causing some beekeepers to improvise their own varroa treatments.

Drought conditions have left bee colonies in many areas in a weakened nutritional state, making them more susceptible to varroa mites and its associated viruses. This one-two punch from varroa and drought will result in above average winter losses of bees and overall weaker bee colony strength for almonds. Although it will be tougher this year, we are confident that we will meet our commitment to supply you with 8+ frame bee colonies. Some beekeepers are predicting $200/colony bee rental prices for almonds for the few growers that haven’t yet contracted for bees or for growers whose beekeepers jumped ship because they didn’t feel they were getting a fair price. We are confident that our beekeepers will stick with us even though some will lose money this year due to the unforeseen problems outlined above.<<

I think that about sums it up.


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## jim lyon

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ahh, heck yeah Jimmy, skies the limit. lol I got to have a talk with Barry, the Icon popcorn & guy digging his own pit are great .... But we need to add a flock of turkeys as well.


I am thinking animated marching Lemmings might be useful as well and why not someone getting thrown under a bus? The possibilities are endless. Come on Barry puhleeeese?


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## Ian

How does those pollination contracts work when brokering to growers?

When you sign up your commitment, and those bee that are sent dont meet the growers specs, is the beekeeper liable for covering the shortfall?


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## beemandan

jim lyon said:


> why not someone getting thrown under a bus?


Ya might want to leave that one off for the time being....


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## The Honey Householder

Ian said:


> and a smiley face with dollar sign eyes


Ian, I would like that one. Of course I like and use the guy digging a lot more then I should!:digging:


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## Ian

:digging:

he he


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## Rader Sidetrack

Here's a start ...


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## JRG13

In terms of RR resistance, most of the weeds have developed a novel pathway, has nothing to do with outcrossing, so you can't compare the two pathways in terms of Amino Acid synthesis, as I do not know how weeds are dealing witht he glyphosate. That being said, reproductive tolerance (typically associated to male sterility) to Round-up is something to look at. Commercial lines are fine in this regard but it wouldn't surprise me if pollen quality or quantity is reduced, just not to any level that affects yield at all. Could this mean problems for bees, I don't know. 

As to almonds, all the offers I've seen with people offering up bees are in the $140 range so $200 seems pretty high. Also, availability is a little variable by region/county, so maybe a part of the state seeing a shortage was paying those prices but some areas with excess bees will be paying less.


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