# fixing a colony's microflora/ecosystem (practical experiences/studies)



## SeaCucumber

If I have a colony that's missing organisms that its supposed to have, how do I bring them back? What have people done to fix disturbed colonies, and what was the outcome? If I can't replenish all the missing organisms, what can I do to replace some of them?

I've heard many stories of human C. diff. patients getting fecal transplants. Many patients say that a fecal transplant cured them, and nothing else had a comparable effect (including man-made probiotics). A lot of patients talk about having been on strong antibiotics before the transplant. Now that I know what works for humans, I would like to know what works for bees.

Please share your experiences/experiments replenishing the organisms that benefit colonies. I would like this thread to mostly be about what people have done, and what the results were, but you may share studies you've found.

search engine words: microbes microbial antibiotics bacteria micro flora microbiota biome microbiome treatments


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## AR Beekeeper

I have never read or had described to me the symptoms that would lead me to believe I had a colony in that condition. My bees gut bacteria is the least of my beekeeping worries.

The adult honey bee receives it's gut bacteria first through the colony food chain, so if I should become worried, I would introduce nurse bees from a colony that I believed to be in good condition. If the colony is deficient in pollen I would give it pollen frames or feed a supplement until pollen again became available in the field. If the colony is short on food I would exchange frames of honey/nectar, again taken from a colony in good condition.

Don't worry about what is not a proven problem, you will have your hands full with just varroa mites.


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## Tenbears

Is this a joke? Anything you do would be considered a TREATMENT.


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## beepro

The best way to restore or fix a colony with the good bacteria is to bring in a 
pollen frame or 2 from the good and strong colony. You don't have to brush off
the bees on the frame. Then put in a pollen patty to get them going. I don't know if feeding patty
is consider tf or not. Things should be back to normal again in a month or two.


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## Tim Steele

My first post ever, here! You guys are great. Just wanted to post this video concerning the topic. I would call this treatment-free, maybe you all disagree?


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## squarepeg

it's a very good question and touches on a subject that is not very well understood as of yet but one which may turn out to fundamental to bee colony health.

i agree that it would be difficult to ascertain whether or not the microflora in the hive is nominal. and it's not just the microflora but also the other small invertebrates the hive hosts that likely play important roles as well.

at this stage all one can do (and what i and others are doing) is to avoid introducing anything into the hive that has the potential to alter the biology in there, such as artificial feeds and chemical treatments.

importing nurse bees, beebread, and honey frames from healthy hives makes sense and this is something that happens from time to time in the normal course of boosting weak colonies, making up splits, and spreading honey feed around as needed.


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## Michael Bush

I agree with adding a frame of bees/brood/pollen from a healthy hive. It should cover all the bases. You have what is in the bee bread, what is in the gut of the bees, anything specific to living on brood and any other microscopic mites etc.


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## rolftonbees

It makes sense that a frame from a strong healthy hive would innoculate a weak hive with microbes that might be lacking. 

The next question would be what negative microbes were present and will they be over run by the newly inserted frame. 

Additionally the question of where the bad stuff came from to start with. New package or nuc, or is this colony simply struggling against the same challenges your other colonies are thriving against?

Would requeening be as effective, and is that the real reason a frame of brood helps so often?


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## Tim Steele

squarepeg said:


> it's a very good question and touches on a subject that is not very well understood as of yet but one which may turn out to fundamental to bee colony health.


I almost thought you said "...fundamental to bee COLON health." But actually, colon and colony are closer that you'd think.

This paper just out, examining the gut microbes in the bumblebee. Probably quite relevant to the gut microbes in a honey bee.

"Deep sequencing and ecological characterization of gut microbial communities of diverse bumble bee species.Plant diversity and ecosystem productivity: Theoretical considerations"



> Gut bacterial communities of bumble bees are correlated with defense against pathogens. Further understanding this host-microbe association is vitally important as bumble bees are currently experiencing global population declines, potentially due in part to emergent diseases.


and



> Similar to honeybees, we found that bacteria in the ileum of the bumble bee species B. impatiens forms biofilms on the inside surface of the gut epithelium (Fig. 6). This suggests that bumble bee gut microbiotas may have specific functions in their hosts, such as providing nutritional benefits or defense against intestinal pathogens. Future research in these areas will have important implications for the conservation of corbiculate bees worldwide, as numerous species and populations are purportedly threatened by invasive parasites or deficient nutrition [71–73].


The key to keeping bee populations stable is more than likely in the gut bacterial communities. Humans have a similar problem, caused by over-sterilization of foods and hands, antibiotic use, and eating a diet low in fiber. I have to wonder if all the feeding of sugar to bees is partly to blame for colony collapse and mite infestations. I've been looking at feeding trehalose instead of sugar, makes much more sense, I believe. Just way more expensive. Although it would be best to feed only the hive's own honey.


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## Oldtimer

Sometimes I've found a hive that has a coldness to it, or something not quite right, and wonder if maybe something is wrong with their bioflora, so I put a comb of pollen in from a different hive.

Can't really say that it works or that my diagnosis was correct. Long as the donor hive is healthy can't hurt though.


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## shinbone

"_If I have a colony that's missing organisms that its supposed to have, how do I bring them back?_"

What organisms is a colony supposed to have?

How do you determine whether any of these organisms are missing?


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## odfrank

This sounds like Housel positioning to me.

For 45 years I hear nothing about needing to be concerned with a hive's "micro flora ecosystem" and now it is something I have to worry about?

Maybe with the use of plastic foundation/frames it is a concern?


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## SeaCucumber

Tim gave me an idea. I just got some bees. I killed a bumblebee, mixed it in some filtered water, and sprayed it on my new bees. Later, I plan on killing 3 more bumblebees, squishing them, and adding them to each of my 3 new colonies. My bumblebees look extremely healthy. I think this couldn't hurt, and its a one time thing for the greater good. I will boost some bumblebee colonies.


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## jwcarlson

SeaCucumber said:


> Tim gave me an idea. I just got some bees. I killed a bumblebee, mixed it in some filtered water, and sprayed it on my new bees. Later, I plan on killing 3 more bumblebees, squishing them, and adding them to each of my 3 new colonies. My bumblebees look extremely healthy. I think this couldn't hurt, and its a one time thing for the greater good. I will boost some bumblebee colonies.


What in the hell is going on here...? Bumblebee juice...?


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## jbeshearse

jwcarlson said:


> What in the hell is going on here...? Bumblebee juice...?


JW, it's the Bond Method of gene insertion. Only the strong genes will survive and be incorporated into the genome. &#55357;&#56883;


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## AR Beekeeper

SeaCucumber; What makes you think it couldn't hurt?


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## clyderoad

SeaCucumber said:


> Tim gave me an idea. I just got some bees. I killed a bumblebee, mixed it in some filtered water, and sprayed it on my new bees. Later, I plan on killing 3 more bumblebees, squishing them, and adding them to each of my 3 new colonies. My bumblebees look extremely healthy. I think this couldn't hurt, and its a one time thing for the greater good. I will boost some bumblebee colonies.


I am now convinced I need to be more selective in choosing the threads I read.
I'm speechless. :scratch:


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## beeware10

this thread is a good example of trying to fix a unproven problem that may not even exist. most beginners would do better learning basic beekeeping vs this type of thread, just more computer beekeeping.


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## AHudd

SeaCucumber said:


> Tim gave me an idea. I just got some bees. I killed a bumblebee, mixed it in some filtered water, and sprayed it on my new bees. Later, I plan on killing 3 more bumblebees, squishing them, and adding them to each of my 3 new colonies. My bumblebees look extremely healthy. I think this couldn't hurt, and its a one time thing for the greater good. I will boost some bumblebee colonies.


Be sure to use filtered water. You wouldn't want any calcium or the other stuff that's in tap water to react with your Bumble bee guts and poop.
A few years ago, "boost" was a euphemism for steal. You wouldn't want to admit to committing a crime in an open forum.:no: Shhhhh!!!

Anonymous


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## Oldtimer

Hmm, I agree with the sentiments that some people get off on the more whacky stuff before they learn some important basics, but some of the comments may be a little overly dismissive of the original proposition in the opening post.

We know that gut microbes play an important part in human nutrition, even synthesising for us vitamins we need that we cannot synthesize without them. So why not bees?

There is some science behind the idea that various microflora is beneficial to a beehive, here is a link to one study on it, this and some others changed my own opinion on the matter-
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00890481/document

The problem with this discussion is that in beekeeping, sometime grandiose claims are made by people pushing certain agendas. For example the claim that miticides are harmful because of the claimed 300 different species of symbiotic mites that supposedly can live with bees. When most of us just have to open a hive to see there are not 300 different species of symbiotic mites in there and it matters not a jot. 

Therefore we get dismissive of all these types of claims. As I was. But having read some actual science on it my personal belief is there are beneficial microflora in a hive that we are better with, than without.


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## waynesgarden

An old organic gardening trick for combating pests was the bug juice method. You gathered up about a half cup or so (if possible) of the insect that was plaguing your plants, grind them up and put them in about a quart or so of water. Let the concoction sit in the hot sun for a day or two (or until it really stinks,) strain it and spray it on your plants. The theory was that whatever diseases or pathogens that might already be infecting the insect would incubate and multiply quickly in the warm water, making a natural insecticide targeted at specific pests. I tried it a few times on certain pests (hint: don't even try to collect enough aphids for this ) and it seemed to work ok. I won't vouch for there being any science behind it, but using a similar technique to somehow help my bees gives me pause.

Wayne


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## SeaCucumber

AR Beekeeper said:


> SeaCucumber; What makes you think it couldn't hurt?


Its just one healthy bumblebee. I doubt it would make my bees sick. If it doesn't help, it will probably do nothing.


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## SeaCucumber

AHudd said:


> "boost" was a euphemism for steal.
> 
> Anonymous


I didn't know. There's a time of year when every time I'm in the yard, there's a queen bumblebee spending all day looking for a place to live. I could "boost" them by giving them homes, pollen, and honey. They'll quit searching, and start laying.


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## JWChesnut

SeaCucumber said:


> Its just one healthy bumblebee. I doubt it would make my bees sick. If it doesn't help, it will probably do nothing.


Typhoid Mary --
Read:
Effect of oral infection with Kashmir bee virus and Israeli acute paralysis virus on bumblebee (Bombus terrestris) reproductive success
Ivan Meeus
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022201114000949?np=y

Bumblebees at risk from honeybee diseases 
http://bumblebeeconservation.org/news/bumblebees-at-risk-from-honeybee-diseases


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## clyderoad

waynesgarden said:


> An old organic gardening trick for combating pests was the bug juice method. You gathered up about a half cup or so (if possible) of the insect that was plaguing your plants, grind them up and put them in about a quart or so of water. Let the concoction sit in the hot sun for a day or two (or until it really stinks,) strain it and spray it on your plants. The theory was that whatever diseases or pathogens that might already be infecting the insect would incubate and multiply quickly in the warm water, making a natural insecticide targeted at specific pests. I tried it a few times on certain pests (hint: don't even try to collect enough aphids for this ) and it seemed to work ok. I won't vouch for there being any science behind it, but using a similar technique to somehow help my bees gives me pause.
> 
> Wayne


Now this is humorous!


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## Michael Bush

>...because of the claimed 300 different species of symbiotic mites that supposedly can live with bees.

You are the first person I've ever heard who came up with the number 300. Did you just make that up? Nancy Ostiguy said 40 in a presentation to the KHPA in about 2004. This site references a book that lists 170 mites that live on bees:

http://www.landesmuseum.at/biophp/arti_det.php?litnr=10335&artinr=13954

And we know for a fact that at least one of the mites living in a hive eat Varroa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qw3eVjQPXQ


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## Oldtimer

OK apologies I obviously had brain fade, I'll downgrade the number to 170.


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## 1102009

Dear SeaCucumber,
thank you for this very important thread.

This is what Dee Lusby tells us:

>2. Artificial diet causing inadequate nutrition. Poor nutrition is a serious stress factor of any organism. What happens when key nutrients are present in insufficient quantities for generation after generation? Larger honeybees require richer nutritional diets, yet have access to less in Nature by being out-of-tune through body size to appropriately match natural bee flora.

Colonies can be in a state of inadequate nutrition through either their geographic location placement or placement on artificial enlarged comb foundation creating imbalance with bee flora, and/or fed diets of pollen substitutes and sugars that are inadequate. Because of this, one or more of the key nutrients can be insufficiently represented or entirely lacking in the bee’s body adding to immune system deficiency.

Since we believe that a queen reared this way, can not give to her offspring what she does not have herself, the result is that the queen constitutionally transmits a predisposition for disease and mite attack to her offspring. If honeybees acquire a predisposition for stress diseases due to inadequate nutrition through either their geographic location placement or placement on enlarged brood comb foundation, beekeepers can expect disease and mite infestations in their colonies.

3. Artificial medical treatment by chemicals rather then biological treatment through natural management, causing neurological disorders (CHANEY, 1988), queen supercedures, brood deaths, resistant mites to chemicals being used for treatment thus enhancing reproduction of same and contaminating internal colony food, leaving the honeybee colony unable to function properly to fight off bee diseases or mites.<

Regards, Sibylle


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## lharder

Having some feral bees would be a good place to start. Besides that, just letting nature take its course and letting things happen. Phil Chandler is trying some eco floors to try to simulate the conditions bees would have in a tree hollow. Might be cool to track microbial diversity of that vs conventional boxes. Modern microbial bee fauna is likely impoverished, and improving it with tf would is a long term proposition.


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## Michael Bush

>For 45 years I hear nothing about needing to be concerned with a hive's "micro flora ecosystem" and now it is something I have to worry about?


You never gave a struggling hive a frame from a strong hive?


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## odfrank

The hive is struggling because it doesn't have "micro flora ecosystem"? Or it has a poor queen or is hungry or other?


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## odfrank

"Micro flora ecosystem" is to me the same as "Mycorhyzae" for plants. For decades I am successful without knowing anything about them and then all of a sudden I hear how important they are.


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## aunt betty

Dr. Mary Berenbaum (University of Illinois bug lady) 
said that bees need "probiotics". Something is missing from their digestive tract and we could help them out if we would spend the time (and money) to figure out what it is. Research needs to be done on this topic and I don't think dragging a bumblebee thru the colony is the answer. 
Maybe it is...50/50.


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## Michael Bush

>Micro flora ecosystem" is to me the same as "Mycorhyzae" for plants. For decades I am successful without knowing anything about them and then all of a sudden I hear how important they are.

And as long as you don't do anything to mess with the "Mycorhyzae" or the "Micro flora ecosystem", you don't need to know anything more about them.


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## deknow

Growing up, we had lady slippers in the woods (an orchid). They are conspicuous and beautiful...but we were always told that they couldn't be moved or cultivated.

Those that were successful cultivating them had found that planting seeds in soil that had lady slipper rhyzomes chopped up in it.

This success was (in my understanding ) a kind of guess...it had nothing to do knowing about or even guessing at the necessary microbial relationships....but you can't grow a lady slipper without them.


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## 1102009

Erik Österlund:
>We have found a couple of possible relevant differences that may help to explain. For 25 years there has been a very efﬁcient and intense use of different chemicals (including more and more acids) in all or almost all the bee colonies in Germany. This has most probably wiped out the micro fauna, that is otherwise present in a normal bee colony. It also has caused accumulation of miticide residues in the wax. The micro fauna in the bee colonies consists of many different insect like organisms. More than 40 it is said. One is recognized to eat fungi mycellium. And who knows what role they all play in the immune system of the bee colony.<


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## AR Beekeeper

The "wiped out micro fauna" is not continuously being replaced in the colony by what the forager bees are bring in?


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## 1102009

But how?
Thought they would bring chemicals.


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## jwcarlson

AR Beekeeper said:


> The "wiped out micro fauna" is not continuously being replaced in the colony by what the forager bees are bring in?


Only if feasting on the innards of dead bumblebees, duh.


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## 1102009

jwcarlson said:


> Only if feasting on the innards of dead bumblebees, duh.


bumblebees are useful to growing tomatoes, so leave them be 
rather use stale water


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