# Supercedure cells everywhere... Need Advice Please



## gomarciab (Aug 7, 2013)

Hi 

Marcy from Coastal Brunswick Maine here. Today while going through one of my colonies I noticed more supersedure cells than I have ever seen in my 11 years or so of beekeeping. It was raining and I had to put the colony back together as I was also trying to avoid the dreaded Brown Tail Moth. I am headed out again tomorrow and hoping these cells will still be there and not yet hatched. The colony is 4 mediums and I think it was robbed or perhaps it swarmed. No swarm cells seen and the colony is pretty strong with bees. I did check them last week and there were no queen cells at that time. The hive has almost no honey and did come out of winter light. It has been going strong however and our nectar flow is on yet moderate at this point. When I pulled the top cover there were severed bee bodies on inside cover so I am thinking they got robbed??? To my question. I am hoping to go back in tomorrow and f the Queens have not yet hatched I would like to split off some of these cells to make other colonies. I am wondering what other Beekeeps would do. My plan is:

to take one frame with Queen cells and put it with a frame of honey from another hive into a nuc box.

take second frame with Queen cells and do a walk away split with one medium box and make certain some honey is in there or take a frame from another colony.

I may be able to do another walk away split with another medium box as well as I did see another frame with Queen cells.

This all seems like a great opportunity to make more colonies with bees that have been doing well for years treatment free, and it is early enough in the season I believe to pull this off. Weather permitting and if Maine's lovely Brown Tail Moth doesn't do me in as there is a preponderance of them this year  I am excited!

I would love to know how others would proceed.

Thoughts???? All advice appreciated as always

Thank you 
Marcy


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Not as experienced as I'd like to be but have seen swarm cells and supercedure cells in the same colony complete with a marked mated queen from last year. (several times this spring in different hives).

I think that the location of cells and naming them is sort of a generalization. They're queen cells. Bees make them and I'm fairly certain that bees buzz.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

aunt betty said:


> I think that the location of cells and naming them is sort of a generalization. They're queen cells. Bees make them and I'm fairly certain that bees buzz.


I wonder about that too. I've seen 20 cells in one hive, some in the middle of a frame and most on the bottom. I'd like to see the research that shows where the location of the cell determines what their purpose is. Why would a hive try to supersede and swarm at the same time?


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

if your making in the yard splits - I would move the parent hive over about 5 feet - then place the nucs in a star formation close to it - this will keep the old field force bees from all drifting back to the parent hive - also placing a branch in front of all the new splits makes the bees re orient to the new location - again helping with drift.
My 2 cents
And Brad - there is no difference in supersedure or swarm cells - Now I'm fixing to start a poop storm here but here's the way it is - Queen cells - the bees make these where they have soft wax to work with - Look at all the queen cell photos posted here on BS - and tell me how many are on old hard black comb verses nice white comb.


----------



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Yeah most of the ones on here are on new white comb. I don't have any white comb in my brood boxes now and the hive I was speaking about in my post, I still remember how the cells looked. There were 3 cells on one side of a brood frame about half way down the face. Beautiful cells. In hindsight that comb was brown but still soft enough for them to chew down a little. There was also about 15-20 more cells in that box. I made a bunch of splits from that one. I left all 3 of those cells on the side of that frame in that box. One made a great queen. She's gone now but she was the mother of my now best queen.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

On those 3 cells - I bet they built new cell cups on top of that old dark comb didn't they?


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There is a difference between emergency and supersedure/swarm cells, but it is not what you think. An emergency queen is always floated out of the cell on a bed of royal jelly. The bees may tear down varying amounts of cell wall in the process, but they started with a larvae in a worker cell. Supersedure cells MAY be constructed from an existing larvae, or they may be from an egg purposefully laid in a queen cell by the old queen. Once in a blue moon, you will find where an egg that has been moved by workers and placed into a queen cell. This is almost always because the beekeeper used an excluder and a queen cell was produced above it.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Fusion - I did not address emergency cells - I only addressed swarm/supersedure cells. You are right on with the emergency cell annalists and the bees floating out a larva. And I am not trying to start a debate - some people believe there's a difference and there beliefs are fine with me. I'm only trying to educate here. Nothing more


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

these folks are spot on, location means nothing. The number of cells can give an indication of intent, but you still have to look at the big picture. If there are a bunch and the nest is backfilled with nectar, they are swarming, If there are only a few and there is no aparent reason why they are there, they are superceding. If you have a bunch of them, and no honey stores to speak of like in this case, I'd say emergency due to something happening to your queen, if you suspect robbing, I suspect that is what happened to your queen.


Edit: Oh and to answer your question about what to do with the extras, If I have the equipment available, and the time, I never let a queen cell go to waste, I'd split em up into seperate colonies, if something happens weather wise, you can always re-combine before winter if need be.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Well you know what they say - can't beat experience - and another thing - I won't post if I'm not 100% sure


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> Once in a blue moon, you will find where an egg that has been moved by workers and placed into a queen cell. This is almost always because the beekeeper used an excluder and a queen cell was produced above it.


wait....what?..... do you have evidence of this/ experienced it? Are you sure a queen didn't slip through an excluder somehow? also, I have moved what I thought was fully capped brood above an excluder before and had them draw cells because there was an egg or two I missed. I have heard people suspect that workers will move an egg, but up until your post, I've never heard of anyone actually witnessing it?


----------



## gomarciab (Aug 7, 2013)

sakhoney said:


> if your making in the yard splits - I would move the parent hive over about 5 feet - then place the nucs in a star formation close to it - this will keep the old field force bees from all drifting back to the parent hive - also placing a branch in front of all the new splits makes the bees re orient to the new location - again helping with drift.
> My 2 cents
> And Brad - there is no difference in supersedure or swarm cells - Now I'm fixing to start a poop storm here but here's the way it is - Queen cells - the bees make these where they have soft wax to work with - Look at all the queen cell photos posted here on BS - and tell me how many are on old hard black comb verses nice white comb.


Hi Sakhoney
I have never been clear on the difference between Swarm and Supersedure cells if indeed there is any. But I do agree with the newer wax theory. Yes I similarly place hives when splitting in a case like this. 

Thank you!


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

My understanding - and I hope someone will chime in if I'm wrong - is that for swarm cells, queens lay eggs in cells that are planned to be queen cells. With supercedure cells, the bees are taking an ordinary worker destined egg in a worker cell, and by giving it more and different Royal Jelly, are converting it to a queen. The egg stays in the worker cell where it was laid - the bees have to extend the cell to make room for queen development.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

the egg in the cell is emergency cells - as fusion describes above - swarm/supersedure cells - the queen will lay in a cup as instructed by the bees - Just because she's the queen - don't mean she's the boss
And gobarciab (what a handle) - Thanks for the attaboy - I try to help and educate the newbees - we need them - Beekeeping is hard work and there a lot of the newer generation that does not want anything to do with that word (work)


----------



## gomarciab (Aug 7, 2013)

Andrew Dewey said:


> My understanding - and I hope someone will chime in if I'm wrong - is that for swarm cells, queens lay eggs in cells that are planned to be queen cells. With supercedure cells, the bees are taking an ordinary worker destined egg in a worker cell, and by giving it more and different Royal Jelly, are converting it to a queen. The egg stays in the worker cell where it was laid - the bees have to extend the cell to make room for queen development.


Hi Andrew

Thanks for the input. This is what I have always believed. Yesterday I did split the colony into 4. I could have done more as I had more Queen cells but I ran out of equipment. Today I did check on the new colonies (10 frame medium) and one new Nuc. Some are better than others due to drift I would say. I plan on trying to balance out the low populations with a frame or two from the stronger splits in the next day or so. I am concerned about low amounts of honey as they all had mostly nectar. I did place a frame of honey from another colony with the Nuc. I am now concerned there may not be enough bees to keep the Queen cells warm in the Nuc. As always Andrew you guide me well so chime in if you have advice. Or anyone else for that matter 

Andrew are you seeing Brown Tail Moth infestations this year in your neck of Maine???

PS Swarm went into my Bait hive... different bees than the ones that made the Supercedure cells as those are yellow these are dark. Am excited though as I just dropped them into a box today. (while standing in a tractor bucket) 

Bee Keeping is so interesting.. always an adventure

Best
Marcy


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fusion_power said:


> Once in a blue moon, you will find where an egg that has been moved by workers and placed into a queen cell. This is almost always because the beekeeper used an excluder and a queen cell was produced above it.





Harley Craig said:


> wait....what?..... do you have evidence of this/ experienced it? I have heard people suspect that workers will move an egg, but up until your post, I've never heard of anyone actually witnessing it?


Agreed. I have spent my life being told by people who are adamant that bees will move an egg to make a queen cell, even to above a queen excluder. But after many years of working with thousands of hives, I have never seen this, not even once. In talking to people who earnestly tell me it happens in their hives, if I delve into it, there always seems to be something like they "might" have moved some brood but can't quite remember now, or whatever. Another source of confusion is someone who sees an egg in a queen cup, has a look a few days later and nothing in that cup. Therefore, the bees must have moved it. Doesn't occur the bees probably changed their minds so ate it.

Emergency cells - happen when a queen is unexpectedly removed, if suitable young larvae are available the bees will feed a few of them enough royal jelly to float them near enough to the top of their worker cell so the bees can build a downwards hanging queen cell.

Swarm cells - these are planned ahead so do not have to be built out from worker cells, mostly the queen is cajoled into laying into pre built queen cell cups that are placed any place the bees think suitable. Often bottom and edge of a comb or in some gap in a comb, indentation in a comb or hanging off a bottom bar. Hives intending to swarm will allow for the possibility of sending out after swarms so mostly build a dozen or more queen cells

Supersedure cells - also pre planned by the bees so again pre built queen cell cups are mostly used in preference to worker cells. Placement again is wherever suits the bees best. A superseding hive does not need a dozen cells so will normally only build one or two queen cells, or very occasionally three. 

It is this, the number of queen cells, that is the best guide as to the bees intentions, swarming, or supersedure.

Bees do not go "hey guys this is swarming so be sure to put those queen cells on the bottom bars", or, "hey guys we are superseding so better put the queen cells mid comb". In either case they put the queen cells wherever suits them best. This is why beekeepers see a hive preparing to swarm with queen cells both mid comb, and bottom bar. Because the swarming hive is just concerned with building a good number of cells, wherever suits them best.


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

gomarciab said:


> Andrew are you seeing Brown Tail Moth infestations this year in your neck of Maine???


Hi Marcy - I've not seen or recognized any brown tail moths so far - lots of the little white ones - and I waged war on our tent caterpillars yesterday - 11 nests cut and burned. It was raining and cool at about 6:00pm and I am hoping that most of the beasts were home. Yesterday was day 2 of the battle. This is a great year for choke cherry! I've had swarms move into a bait box outside my kitchen window - twice! (box #3 is in place now). I don't think the swarms were from my managed hives. Only one hive I haven't looked closely at and that is my two queen experiment. I hope they haven't swarmed! I hope to mow and get the yard in shape tomorrow. I'm having the bee school field day here on Saturday and I'd like the yard to be perfect for that.


----------



## gomarciab (Aug 7, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Agreed. I have spent my life being told by people who are adamant that bees will move an egg to make a queen cell, even to above a queen excluder. But after many years of working with thousands of hives, I have never seen this, not even once. In talking to people who earnestly tell me it happens in their hives, if I delve into it, there always seems to be something like they "might" have moved some brood but can't quite remember now, or whatever. Another source of confusion is someone who sees an egg in a queen cup, has a look a few days later and nothing in that cup. Therefore, the bees must have moved it. Doesn't occur the bees probably changed their minds so ate it.
> 
> Emergency cells - happen when a queen is unexpectedly removed, if suitable young larvae are available the bees will feed a few of them enough royal jelly to float them near enough to the top of their worker cell so the bees can build a downwards hanging queen cell.
> 
> ...


Hi Oldtimer:

It's true my bees so not say "hey guys" ever  I appreciate your post and wondered if you could provide clarification on a couple of points.

"Hives intending to swarm will allow for the possibility of sending out after swarms so mostly build a dozen or more queen cells".... then your feeling is if there many say five plus Queen cells this would indicate a swarm regardless of where the Queen Cells are located?? And what do you mean by "sending out after swarms"?


----------



## gomarciab (Aug 7, 2013)

Andrew so far I think I am the only person dealing with these darn Brown Tail Moths.... While those tent Caterpillars are terrible I would take them in trade for these other ones. The skin rash they produce is painful.

Enjoy your field day Andrew... 

Thanks
Marcy


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Gomarciab, afterswarms means after the first swarm. What happens is the hive sends out a swarm with the old queen, this is the first swarm and is sometimes called the primary swarm. Then a few days later if the hive still has enough bees or they are a strain prone to do it, they will send out more swarms with the virgins that hatch from the queen cells, these are normally smaller swarms and are called afterswarms.

A hive with 5 queen cells? Pretty much I would need to see the hive. There are other things that will guide you to the bees likely intentions such as time of year, ie late spring provided the hive is healthy it would be almost certainly preparations to swarm. But at 5 cells it is pretty unlikely to be a supersedure attempt.

Also many cells could be a queenless hive, for some reason when a queen is killed the hive will sometimes build many queen cells and the beekeeper could confuse this with a swarm attempt, except that a close look at the cells will show they have been built from worker cells rather than pre prepared queen cell cups. My own theory as to why queenless hives build many cells when they really only need one new queen, is that when the queen is killed and queen substance dissapears, the bees immediately go into emergency queen rearing mode and start cell raising all over the hive, but that's just a theory. In any case, it works for queen breeders, as a queenless hive can be induced to raise many queen cells.


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Well, there's a few things to deduce when you see a bunch of queencells. The first is to recognize if they're emergency cells or not. Last year I had a 5x5, I had inspected it about 3 weeks prior, it was building well. I pulled the first frame and there were about 13 queencells present along the bottom of the brood. I pulled another frame, about 10 cells present. The hive wasn't overcrowded so I thought it odd they wanted to swarm, but I then started looking at the cells and could immediately tell they were all emergency cells based on their construction. Sure enough, I went through the rest of the hive and there was no queen anymore.

I don't know why people preach this location idealogy of cell placement. If you carefully observe where queen cups are built there is a fairly obvious pattern. Bees build them on new wax or in holes in comb or damaged areas or the sides of comb because quite simply, that is where they can fit them in. Also, if you really get into it, there is no such thing as a swarm cell or a supercedure cell, you simply have queencells and then must determine what the bees are intending based on count of cells and hive strength etc...


----------



## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

nice thread


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

For those who questioned the "bees move eggs" comment, yes, I have seen it a few times and it is more common than anyone would guess. I may still have a picture I took 20 years ago of a queen cell above an excluder. It was the only cell on the frame and the queen was safely down below. She was failing during the summer dearth so it was a supersedure cell.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> For those who questioned the "bees move eggs" comment, yes, I have seen it a few times and it is more common than anyone would guess. I may still have a picture I took 20 years ago of a queen cell above an excluder. It was the only cell on the frame and the queen was safely down below. She was failing during the summer dearth so it was a supersedure cell.


Did that cell emerge a queen? I found a single drone cell in an excluded honey super frame (there _was_ an upper entrance). I figure most likely from a laying worker. Does anyone have a picture of a worker carrying an egg? Thelytoky?


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The researchers usually credit a worker egg being fertile. To my knowledge there has never been photos of a worker placing an egg in a queen cup to make a queen. Workers do pick up and carry eggs, but they usually eat them, not transfer them to cells.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

AR - how in the heck is a worker - an unmated female going to lay a fertile egg?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

typo?


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I used the term fertile because I can't remember the proper term for the ability of an unmated worker to lay an egg capable of becoming a female. It is a rare occurrence happening to only about 1 egg out of 10,000.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

where is the evidence backing that up - a worker cannot lay a worker - My BS meter is going off and it doesn't stand for bee source


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Found it, Thelytoky. Search for a study done by Mackensen in 1943.


----------



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Our experience last weekend was that an old grandma queen from which we have been hoping to raise more queens was being moved from her cozy nuc to 8-frame, and we spotted capped queen cells all over the hive, in addition to abundant brood. She's never shown signs of swarming before, but this was a classic case. Previously, we've stolen brood frames from her to produce emergency queens.

We are also coming off cool wet weather. Two other hives swarmed in May. Forage has been pathetic. The swarms will probably starve. The two swarmed hives still had abundant leftover stores from last fall's feeding, and the grandma queen nuc was being fed regularly.

But fortunately, she was still in the hive. Our strategy: continue transferring the frames into the 8-frame hardware, in the same location, but we moved the old queen back to the nuc, with some of her brood and with frames of stores from her granddaughter. Moving the old queen is essentially an artificial swarm ... the bees are not quite sure how the move happened but it should satisfy their urge to swarm. We moved two frames with queen cells into a "queen castle" (a 10-frame deep partitioned into 4 mini-nuc apartments). We gave the mini-nucs some stores from the same booming granddaughter hive. From this we should raise 3 queens, and still have grandma. Everybody got fed.

The problem is, we don't need extra queens at the moment. But the guy who gave us this wonderful old queen had some losses, and we now have a better genetic legacy for this particular line than he does, so if all works out we will return the favor.

He introduced us to queen castles. These are handy for queen rearing. They're just big enough to get a queen hatched and mated. The mini-nucs can be expanded by pulling partitions, so you can get two full nucs in one. Nucs are fine, too, but how many small hobby apiaries have enough on hand to accommodate a sudden crop of queen cells?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> more supersedure cells than I have ever seen in my 11 years or so of beekeeping.

A lot of queen cells are probably not supersedure cells. They are most likely swarm cells. How many is "more supersedure cells than I have ever seen..."?

As far as queens moving eggs, as far as I know at this time no one has ever observed queens moving eggs. In every case where people make the assumption that they "must have" it can be explained by something that HAS been observed: thelytoky. I see no reason to make assumptions about something which people have spent centuries trying to observe but have not when thelytoky, however rare, is an adequate and observed explanation. Thelytoky has been observed for more than 100 years in European honey bees.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

link the post AR


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Sakhoney, there is an abundant body of evidence that worker bees can lay diploid eggs. It was first documented nearly 200 years ago when hopelessly queenless colonies were able to produce a queen after a few punic workers were introduced. Apis Mellifera Capensis has a gene that causes most workers to be capable of laying diploid eggs and in some cases, a colony will maintain itself in a queenless state with workers produced from eggs laid by worker bees. Unfortunately, this trait is deleterious for colony growth and severely limits honey production.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

again post a link I have never seen a LW hive do nothing but lay drones


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://resistantbees.com/blog/?page_id=1006
http://eurekamag.com/research/002/261/002261940.php


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> Also many cells could be a queenless hive, for some reason when a queen is killed the hive will sometimes build many queen cells and the beekeeper could confuse this with a swarm attempt, except that a close look at the cells will show they have been built from worker cells rather than pre prepared queen cell cups. My own theory as to why queenless hives build many cells when they really only need one new queen, is that when the queen is killed and queen substance dissapears, the bees immediately go into emergency queen rearing mode and start cell raising all over the hive, but that's just a theory. In any case, it works for queen breeders, as a queenless hive can be induced to raise many queen cells.


I think this is what happened to me. Details here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...colony-after-package-install-on-5-7-Need-help

That colony has been split into nucs. Waiting for the new queens to emerge.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sounds that way 357, nice looking nucs you made, hope it goes well!


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Re the egg moving discussion, I think there has been some drift although that's not necessarily a bad thing to cover all bases but the discussion is a little confused. We first hear the idea that bees can move eggs, and as evidence are told about a photo that exists from 20 years ago of a queen cell above an excluder. 
Then other explanations are offered how that could happen including thelytoky. The discussion is advanced by saying that 200 years ago some "punic" workers were introduced to a queenless colony and layed diploid eggs. I have no idea what punic workers are and the study was not linked so in absense of any information I assume the workers were capensis? If so they were not European honey bees.

The 2 studies linked by MB are both different versions of the same thing, an experiment Dee Lusby did on her bees, now regarded as a different species to all other US European honeybees. These studies do not apply to the bees owned by everybody else. IE, if your hive goes hopelessly queenless, regardless of what Dee Lusby did, barring some miracle your hive will go drone laying worker and eventually die. Thelytoky cannot be relied on to save it.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Punic refers to anything originating in the area of North Africa bordering the Mediterranean i.e. Tunisia to Algeria, specifically the area of ancient Carthage. In this case, it would probably be A.M. Intermissa. I would have to dig deep to find the reference, it was definitely one of the early researchers who published the results. I remember reading it back in the 1970's probably in Gleanings in Bee Culture though that would have been re-publishing something from 200 years ago.


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The study of Dee Lusbys bees by DeGrandi - Hoffman quoted Otto Mackensen's study of 1943. He worked with European honey bees, Italians, Caucasians, and Carniolans. I was able to get that much information from a summary of the study, it is not free access. Frank Benton for the USDA traveled the world in the 1880-90s sending bees to the U. S. for study and for sale, he brought the "Punic" bee to the U.S.


----------



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> I remember reading it back in the 1970's probably in Gleanings in Bee Culture though that would have been re-publishing something from 200 years ago.


You have to be careful about re-publishing 200-year-old "scientific" work. You may find educated people still believing in spontaneous generation, such as maggots being created from rotting flesh, insects being created by plant galls, etc. Observations of reproductive behavior in insects was not always particularly rigorous. It took Pasteur to put an end to it. Don't trust an early report without solid later confirmation.


----------



## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Fusion_power said:


> Punic refers to anything originating in the area of North Africa bordering the Caribbean i.e. Tunisia to Algeria, specifically the area of ancient Carthage. In this case, it would probably be A.M. Intermissa. I would have to dig deep to find the reference, it was definitely one of the early researchers who published the results. I remember reading it back in the 1970's probably in Gleanings in Bee Culture though that would have been re-publishing something from 200 years ago.


Instead of Caribbean, I'm sure you meant Mediterranean.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Yes Heaflaw, I did. thanks. I was preoccupied.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You have to be careful about re-publishing 200-year-old "scientific" work. You may find educated people still believing in spontaneous generation, such as maggots being created from rotting flesh, insects being created by plant galls, etc. 

Yes, everyone believed that 200 years ago.... NOT! I would be careful to criticize something just because it's 200 years old. Huber's first groundbreaking book dispelling most all myths about bees was published in 1792 and the second volume in 1814. Both more than 200 years ago. Of course spontaneous generation did not need to be debunked as it already had been centuries before. To Quote Maeterlinck: “I will not enumerate all that apiarian science owes to Huber; to state what it does not owe were the briefer task. His "New Observation on Bees," of which the first volume was written in 1789, in the form of letters to Charles Bonnet, the second not appearing till twenty years later, have remained the unfailing, abundant treasure into which every subsequent writer has dipped. And though a few mistakes may be found therein, a few incomplete truths; though since his time considerable additions have been made to the micrography and practical culture of bees, the handling of queens, etc., there is not a single one of his principal statements that has been disproved, or discovered in error; and in our actual experience they stand untouched, and indeed at its very foundation.”-- Maurice Maeterlinck, The Life of the Bee. I think you have to go back a few more hundred years to find people who believed in spontaneous generation.

You can go back to 1578 and find a bee book that describe grafting queens and doing walkaway splits (Bienen Kunst, Nicol Jacobi). Our ancestors were not all idiots...

>Thelytoky cannot be relied on to save it.

Certainly it cannot. But it can explain some things that people are trying to explain with something that has not been observed--moving eggs.


----------



## NHCOR (Jun 20, 2016)

I'm a new beekeeper as of this spring and I have a package of bees that was seemingly doing well, and they created a couple supercedure cells this week. Does anybody re-queen, and remove the supersedure cells? It seems like the consensus is just to let nature take its course, but I'm concerned because I only have 1 hive and haven't seen any drones / drone cells in my hive to mate with the new queen. Sorry to hijack the thread but it seemed like a related question.


----------



## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

NHCOR said:


> I'm a new beekeeper as of this spring and I have a package of bees that was seemingly doing well, and they created a couple supercedure cells this week. Does anybody re-queen, and remove the supersedure cells? It seems like the consensus is just to let nature take its course, but I'm concerned because I only have 1 hive and haven't seen any drones / drone cells in my hive to mate with the new queen. Sorry to hijack the thread but it seemed like a related question.


They don't mate with drones from the hive the queen was raised in or I should say are reluctant to.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

NHCOR said:


> Does anybody re-queen, and remove the supersedure cells? It seems like the consensus is just to let nature take its course, but I'm concerned because I only have 1 hive and haven't seen any drones / drone cells in my hive to mate with the new queen.


Many folks remove the supercedure cell and then requeen the hive with a queen of known genetics that they prefer. I don't use packages, but I would let the supercedure cell emerge and mate locally and see how she does. This forum is treatment free so the responses here may be skewed in the direction of using locally mated queens.

If you don't have local drones from other hives within mating range at this time, I would be very surprised.


----------



## NHCOR (Jun 20, 2016)

Riverderwent said:


> Many folks remove the supercedure cell and then requeen the hive with a queen of known genetics that they prefer. I don't use packages, but I would let the supercedure cell emerge and mate locally and see how she does. This forum is treatment free so the responses here may be skewed in the direction of using locally mated queens.
> 
> If you don't have local drones from other hives within mating range at this time, I would be very surprised.


Thanks for the advise David, I do have several other beekeepers in the area the closest is about 2 miles down the road. I just wasn't sure how far the drones travel, and if we have a significant feral bee population in central in NH. I'm still trying to decide what to do I think I'll open up the hive the tonight and see how the existing queen is laying, the state of the superscedure cells, and try to make a better informed decision from there. I guess the good news is that replacement queens are readily available this time of year if I decide to go that route. 

After posting this I realized I probably should have just started a different thread - oh well live and learn! Thanks again for the advice.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

NHCOR said:


> Thanks for the advise David, I do have several other beekeepers in the area the closest is about 2 miles down the road.


That's plenty close. There are often more colonies closer than we realize. You can put out a paper plate with a little honey and a few drops of anise essential oil for a couple of days to see if there are bees in an area.



> After posting this I realized I probably should have just started a different thread - oh well live and learn!


And yet the world is still turning on its axis.


----------

