# Would you all recommend an inside cut-out or outside trap-out?



## Stanisr

If the bees have been in the wall long enough to build comb and start brood, you dont want to trap them out and leave the brood and honey in the walls. If that is the case I would say cutout is the only real option.


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## PatBeek

Stanisr said:


> If the bees have been in the wall long enough to build comb and start brood, you dont want to trap them out and leave the brood and honey in the walls. If that is the case I would say cutout is the only real option.


I asked her how long they had been there. She says she thinks less than a year. They probably didn't notice them immediately, however.

In Florida, these hives expand fast because of all the flow most of the year. 

I'd be willing to bet that there is much honey and brood back there.

But yes, I'm leaning toward the cut-out as being the only viable option.

What could be the worse that could happen if they just left the hive there?


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## Sully1882

if you don't cut out the comb and it's supplies more bees will come, maybe not this year but next year for sure. It all needs to be cutout and then sealed up correctly on the outside. 

Sully


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## Daddy'sBees

I do a lot like this one! Use a door-knob hole saw/bit for your drill, and go through the soffit to get a confirmed visual of NO bees there. Sound can travel many ways inside walls. Check the soffit first. It's an easy fix if they aren't there. If not there, then go inside using the same exploratory tool. Both a small light and dental mirror will aid in looking through any hole of this type.


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## mrqb

i wouldn't be afraid of an inside cutout,just seal the door to that room super tight,if u can locate them ,that beats working off a ladder or lift,and drywall cost less than aluminum soffit and fascia


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## Beregondo

Since the bees have already found their way inside, I sure wouldn't try a trap out. The residents are likely to get more excitement than either you or they bargained for it you do.

Find the bees, then use a stud finder (or visble nail heads, if any) to locate the studs on either side and use a razor knife to cut the sheetock away.

Be sure to put a cloth down over the whole floor first (plsstic tarp will slip on carpet).
I'd hang a tarp or sheet over the doorway to contain dust and bees as well.

Have fun. Enjoy getting to know your new bees.


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## beegeorge

to locate the bees, go down to Grainger and get an infrared temperature gun (available for as low as $75 or as high as $1200). with that you can scan the walls and where the temp goes up a couple of degrees, concentrate in that area,,, 

If you can afford it, a borescope inspection camera (as low as $170). that way you can drill a 1/2 inch hole insert the lens and look around. 

this will pinpoint the location of the bees, let you see how big the swarm is, and do MINIMAL damage.


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## PatBeek

Those are all such excellent suggestions.

The gentleman who I helped on the last removal says he has one of those temperature guns. Hopefully he will agree to help out on this removal as well. 

The lady who owns the house said she used to have access to one of those borescope cameras, but she gave it back to someone....darnit.

I really do like the idea of using those tools because I don't want bees flying around the room unnecessarily while inspecting/locating them.....and, of course, as mentioned, it minimizes the damage.

These forums are spectacular.....thanks all.

.


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## dixiebooks

Why is an outside cutout out of the question for you? Do you really want to smoke up that bedroom? I have a similar cutout to do soon (already have the deal signed). I'd rather go through the bedroom, also but for the smoke in the house. -james


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## PatBeek

.

And regarding the studs, is it a good possibility that if they are behind the wall under the window, would the chances be that they'd be confined between two studs? I'm not so sure because - as I mentioned before - I even heard them on those side upward angles. I hope that was just sound traveling instead of them actually being all up in those too.

But looking at the window from the outside, there sure is a lot of space under the window going down the roof to the soffit. That's a lot of space that would be back and below the wall that's inside the house.

If you look at the picture I posted above of the outside window that's up at it's level, you can see shingles that are whitish in color. I bet the hive follows that pattern approx underneath....but I'm probably stating the obvious.


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## PatBeek

dixiebooks said:


> Why is an outside cutout out of the question for you? Do you really want to smoke up that bedroom? I have a similar cutout to do soon (already have the deal signed). I'd rather go through the bedroom, also but for the smoke in the house. -james


That's a fantastic point. Anyone else have any comments regarding this?

I just don't think going through the outside will provide enough access to how far up/back they are. I mean, I suppose it's possible that they could be contained within just the immediate soffit area, but even so, it would be tough to have enough room to work in such a confined space up on a 30 foot extension ladder.

The smoke is a valid point. But you know, I would suppose it could be done without smoke.


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## beegeorge

I dont know how much you charge for a cut out,, but that fee could pay for your IR thermometer and borescope,, or at least defray the cost,, and I NEVER NEVER NEVER use smoke in swarm removal,, it sends the queen hiding,,

also,, I agree with the suggestions of using plastic sheeting on the carpet,, sealing the room,, and I even use a canvas paint drop cloth to try to catch as much sticky stuff (washes easily) as possible,, no sense in upsetting a home owner,, 

when all is cleaned up,, advise the home owner to keep the door closed,, and that evening go back and gather the last of the colony,, you will find them clustered around THE HIDING QUEEN!!!!

call them the next day,, ensure they are happy,,


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## jrbbees

On ebay you can order a bore sight camera on a cable you can put through a 1/2" whole for under $40. bucks. use it with your laptop computer. Got to ebay. search: inspection spy camera

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Cable-W...937?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2564bfa801


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## jredburn

Instead of smoke try sugar water spray. Then suck them up with a bee vac.
Regards
Joe


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## whiskers

In response to #3 post- if you just leave them. This goes back to the 60's or so but we had a hive of bees in my parents house between the porch roof and the interior ceiling. It gave no trouble nor were there any stains. Of course this is before mites, beetles, wax worms neonics and who knows what else. So the minimum, assuming robust genetics, would be no trouble at all except an interesting day each spring when they swarm.

On the other hand- you are in Florida so the worst could be that they become Africanized and one day they come pouring out and kill somebody.

From outside it looks like there is a fair likely-hood that before you reach the extent of the hive you will reach either roof or brick facing. Neither of which I would want to pay to repair. Read Cleo Hogan's posts on trapouts and decide if that will work for you. I doubt that that method results in as many desperate bees looking for a way back in as a cone trap does. If I had to repair the damage I would prefer that your attack came from inside the house but I would hope you were a neat worker.
Bill

Has anyone investigated foam in place insulation as a way to encapsulate the remains of a trapped out, robbed out hive and as a way to deprive the space to bees that might arrive later?
Bill


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## Medic1259

beegeorge said:


> to locate the bees, go down to Grainger and get an infrared temperature gun (available for as low as $75 or as high as $1200). with that you can scan the walls and where the temp goes up a couple of degrees, concentrate in that area,,,
> 
> If you can afford it, a borescope inspection camera (as low as $170). that way you can drill a 1/2 inch hole insert the lens and look around.
> 
> this will pinpoint the location of the bees, let you see how big the swarm is, and do MINIMAL damage.


The IR Gun on Ebay $20 )Including Shipping http://www.ebay.com/itm/200626065687?ssPageName=STRK:MEBOFFX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1427.l2649


Borescope USB to hook to laptop also $20 on ebay 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2M-Mini-USB...095?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ae5e997f

Also trick take a wire hanger.. clip the end to a point then attach to a drill... us it as a drill bit with the sheet rock.. when you pul it out see if honey on end of tip.. if not move on... will leave smallest holes that can be filled with joint compount very easy..


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## PatBeek

Thanks so much for those finds with the equipment on ebay.

I am going to call the lady tomorrow and see if she'll pony-up around 400 bucks for this removal. If she will, I will gladly invest in those pieces of equipment, especially if I might be doing more of them in the future.

Y'all think that would be a bit steep considering we WON'T be doing the subsequent repair work? 

Even without having to do the subsequent repairs, such a removal ain't no walk in the park. There are a lot of logistical problems with this - least of them being bees swarming inside the closed-off room as the removal unfolds. If it's not done right, total bedlam could ensue.

By the way, how on EARTH does one go about rounding up each and every little bee that remains in the bedroom? I will be vacuuming for days. Crap, they may have to move their furniture out of that room before we begin, I would imagine. What about air vents? Lord knows I want the ac vent on and open while we're doing this.


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## PatBeek

jredburn said:


> Instead of smoke try sugar water spray.
> Regards
> Joe


I already had that ready today....but it didn't start yet.

Thanks.


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## whiskers

Get a piece of window screen, cut it to fit over the air conditioning duct and tape or otherwise fix it on. Enough air will get through so you don't expire and bees won't fit through. Good point though, probably wouldn't please the customer if bees start spraying out of the ducts in the rest of the house. Cover the return with screen too. One has to imagine bees spraying through the house, possible three stooges bit.
Bill


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## robherc

PatBeek said:


> I am going to call the lady tomorrow and see if she'll pony-up around 400 bucks for this removal. If she will, I will gladly invest in those pieces of equipment, especially if I might be doing more of them in the future.
> 
> Y'all think that would be a bit steep considering we WON'T be doing the subsequent repair work?
> 
> Even without having to do the subsequent repairs, such a removal ain't no walk in the park. There are a lot of logistical problems with this - least of them being bees swarming inside the closed-off room as the removal unfolds. If it's not done right, total bedlam could ensue.
> 
> By the way, how on EARTH does one go about rounding up each and every little bee that remains in the bedroom? I will be vacuuming for days. Crap, they may have to move their furniture out of that room before we begin, I would imagine. What about air vents? Lord knows I want the ac vent on and open while we're doing this.


$400 for what could end up being a nightmare, through-the-bricks removal? Wow, can I have you come do my removals for me...they can pay me 1/2 of what the exterminator charges, then I'll pay you the $400 and pocket the rest!  I wouldn't worry at ALL about charging her $400, I just had a customer I did a swarm removal for (nice & accessible, sitting on a 4'-5' high branch of a 6' high landscaping tree) tell me they'd called an exterminator first, and that he wanted $325 just to spray poison on the readily accessible bees (and apparently he'd offered to get 'em into a swarm box before killing them for $750)!!! The business owner almost swooned when I told him I only wanted 10 bucks for gas money; then he gave me $20 anywise. Long story short, don't worry about overcharging on removals; chances are you're never gonna go over HALF of what a rip-off-artist exterminator would charge for the same job. (btw, I'm now considering charging $50 for swarm removals...if ppl are paying the exterminator $300+, then why shouldn't I collect a little pocket change for the deed  )

As far as the bedroom goes...all furniture = OUT; use painter's tape to tape plastic sheeting (cheap thin stuff works...just so long as it's waterproof) to the walls & ceiling first, making sure to cut a hole & tape around the AC vent so you can still get cool air; tape the plastic on either side of an area slightly larger than you plan to cut; cover the floor in plastic (thick enough to not tear when you walk on it & drop chunks of plaster on it) that's taped to the wall plastic.
Now you are ready to do your removal. Remove the bees+hive, putting the bees in your boxes (or your bee vac), the brood comb (WITH bees still on it, so you don't chill all the brood) in your boxes, and all the honey comb in a couple 5gal buckets.
Once you're done with the removal (to include collecting the cluster that re-forms about 20mins to 2hrs after you stop working), take a 1.5gal garden sprayer full of water with 1/4-1/2 cup dish soap mixed in & lightly shower anywhere you see bees with the dish soap solution...if mixed sufficiently strong (I.E. at least 1/4c soap) it should kill any bees you get it on in a few minutes. Once most of the "Stragglers" are dead & you can't see live bees massing anywhere, get all your equipment out of the room, then pull the taped-on plastic off the walls, working from top to bottom & rolling/wadding it up as you go; continue wadding the plastic until you have a nice big ball of plastic in the middle of the floor, with all the dead bees, plaster chunks+dust, scraps of comb, spilt honey, and soapy water, contained inside. Nos you just have to drop that big ball of junk into a tub/trash can that it'll fit in, and carry it out to the trash so your customer can go in & be flabbergasted at how neat & clean you left her room. :banana:


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## PatBeek

Incredible information in the last several posts.

Much appreciated. In fact, this has to be one of the most informative threads ever, and the cut-out hasn't even begun yet.

I just spoke with the lady's husband this morning. We discussed much of what we have been discussing regarding all the logistics involved (including moving the furniture out of the room, putting down protection for carpet/walls/vents) and he is willing to pay at least 500 bucks. I told him that is an APPROXIMATE price for now because the removal could get hairier depending on how much comb and how far they've built, etc......and oh, THEY are going to move the furniture - not us.

The owner has agreed to take care of any drywall, etc, repairs after the fact.

Now I just have to get the other party to agree to help out, lol.

And yes, I'm going to order the boreoscope for cheap on ebay and get going on this hopefully in the next few days.


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## robherc

excellent, keep us updated and post lots of pictures


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## ScoutBee

I wouldn't spray bees with sugar water and then try to bee vac them. Sticky bees in the hose will cause it to plug up. Turning up the suction will kill bees. If I was doing the cut out from the inside I would want that entire room empty of furniture and bedding. Less places for bees to hide. Anyway you slice it..It's going to be an adventure. Good luck.


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## PatBeek

.

Wow, Michael Bush raises a good point. If only the queen can be located (without smoking and vacuuming), then she can be placed in the hive box with brood and the rest of the bees will follow.

Would any of you recommend attempting this method in an indoor cut-out? 



> *Removal*.
> 
> Ignoring, for the moment, the construction issues, if you get to the combs, whether they are in a house or a tree or whatever, you need to cut the brood to fit frames and tie around the frames to hold it in. This does not work for honey because it's too heavy, so scrap the honey. Throw it in a five gallon bucket with a lid to keep out the bees trying to clean up the spill. Try to put the brood in an empty hive box and keep brushing or shaking the bees off into it. If you see the queen, then catch her and put her in the hive box. If you get some brood and the queen in the hive box the rest of the bees will eventually follow. If you don't see the queen, then just keep putting bees in the box and brood comb in frames in the box and honey in the bucket until the combs are all gone. Take the bucket and, if you can, leave for a few hours and let the bees figure out where the queen and the other bees are. They will all settle into the new box. At dark they should all be inside and you can close it up and take it home.



Here's what he says about the vacuums:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesferal.htm#beevacuum

.


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## ScoutBee

PatBeek said:


> .
> 
> Wow, Michael Bush raises a good point. If only the queen can be located (without smoking and vacuuming), then she can be placed in the hive box with brood and the rest of the bees will follow.
> 
> Would any of you recommend attempting this method in an indoor cut-out?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what he says about the vacuums:
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesferal.htm#beevacuum
> 
> .


I think a lot of it depends on how big the colony is. It's a lot easier to find the queen in a small colony. It also makes a difference which direction to comb is running. One way its easier for the queen to run and hide. In the last cut out I did finding the queen was a piece of cake. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh4TLUw-8Xg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I disagree with Michael on the usefulness of a bee vac. If you have them set right and don't try to hurry you can suck an entire colony up queen and all and not kill more then a few bees.


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## PatBeek

ScoutBee said:


> I disagree with Michael on the usefulness of a bee vac. If you have them set right and don't try to hurry you can suck an entire colony up queen and all and not kill more then a few bees.


What about proceeding at first with no vac, just cutting them out and placing brood in the hive box and then use the vac only if necessary? 

Let the QUEEN be the vacuum !!! Can it be that easy?

This is fascinating. So if one is patient, and has the time to come back if needed, wouldn't the queen be found eventually, either in the hive box (hopefully with most of the rest of the bees in the evening) or still in the original comb area with the bees still amassed around her? If most of the brood is cut-out and placed in the hive box, I see the following scenarios:

a) you also got the queen (either by luck or by sighting) and the bees will mostly go in with her - tape it up and go home.

or

b) there's not much brood comb left at all in original hive and the queen will be easy to spot, perhaps in a bunch or ball of workers, so then just scoop them up and place them in hive box.

or 

c) all effin' hell breaks loose and they are AHBs, and I'm lucky to get out of the bedroom alive, even fully suited and taped up.


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## PatBeek

ScoutBee said:


> In the last cut out I did finding the queen was a piece of cake.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh4TLUw-8Xg&feature=youtube_gdata_player


As a newb, I'm fascinated that you can work with no gloves in a situation like that.

How is that even possible?


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## ScoutBee

PatBeek said:


> What about proceeding at first with no vac, just cutting them out and placing brood in the hive box and then use the vac only if necessary?
> 
> Let the QUEEN be the vacuum !!! Can it be that easy?
> 
> This is fascinating. So if one is patient, and has the time to come back if needed, wouldn't the queen be found eventually, either in the hive box (hopefully with most of the rest of the bees in the evening) or still in the original comb area with the bees still amassed around her? If most of the brood is cut-out and placed in the hive box, I see the following scenarios:
> 
> a) you also got the queen (either by luck or by sighting) and the bees will mostly go in with her - tape it up and go home.
> 
> or
> 
> b) there's not much brood comb left at all in original hive and the queen will be easy to spot, perhaps in a bunch or ball of workers, so then just scoop them up and place them in hive box.
> 
> or
> 
> c) all effin' hell breaks loose and they are AHBs, and I'm lucky to get out of the bedroom alive, even fully suited and taped up.


Lol let's hope C. is not the case. 

I absolutely would try it without the vac going at first. If it goes well and you can peel the comb back one at a time. You will find her eventually. What the vac is good for is removing some of the bees to cut down on the chaos. Once you have some good into your box a lot of the bees will stay in there to keep it warm. It's amazing how many will just cling right on the combs as you move it and band it to the frames. Then even without a lid on they will stay in the box on that comb. I think you need to be ready for a bunch of scenarios and just hope that you are ready for the one that takes place. Go into it calm and with a whole day to work it so you don't have to hurry. I wish I was closer I'd be right beside you holding the flashlight.


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## ScoutBee

PatBeek said:


> As a newb, I'm fascinated that you can work with no gloves in a situation like that.
> 
> How is that even possible?



The right amount of smoke and slow calm movements. Plus I think bees get kinda disoriented when you come in from the wall like that. They are expecting an attack through the front door. Once their whole hive is exposed like that. I think it changes the way they think. (providing bees do think) It seems like they almost are so shocked that they forget to sting and just go into brood protection. But it may just all be B.S. too and maybe I have just always cut-out nice well mannered bees.


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## robherc

PatBeek said:


> a) you also got the queen (either by luck or by sighting) and the bees will mostly go in with her - tape it up and go home.
> 
> or
> 
> b) there's not much brood comb left at all in original hive and the queen will be easy to spot, perhaps in a bunch or ball of workers, so then just scoop them up and place them in hive box.
> 
> or
> 
> c) all effin' hell breaks loose and they are AHBs, and I'm lucky to get out of the bedroom alive, even fully suited and taped up.


Well, having handled at least one hive that I'm 98%sure was HOT AHB, I can tell you that option C isn't going to happen. If you're properly protected, and well taped, then you're only going to get "prickles" in your hands (feels like fiberglass splinters, plus a bit of a warm & itchy feeling...that's all <--and I'm mildly allergic) from all the stingers in your gloves (had several thousand stingers in my gloves from that hive), but you shouldn't even get that anywhere else on your body.
FYI, the longest honeybee stinger I've measured to date (out of a couple hundred that I've measured, I'm a bit OCD) was just BARELY over 3/16" long...so anywhere you have at least 1/8" of protection, you'll probably only get prickles, and no stingers getting "set" in your skin by the barbs...anywhere you have at least 1/4" of protection, you're theoretically bee-proof.
If you're wearing proper gear & can learn to trust it, that will go a LONG way towards making your cut-outs smoother, calmer, and more enjoyable!


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## PatBeek

.

Scoutbee and Robherc, thanks so much - all great info.

The gears are turning................not guaranteeing they aren't stripped.......but they're turning.

Oh yes, I really appreciated a post someone made recently about this simple device they came up with for mounting comb to top bars in this situation. I just may implement this:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?267395-Simple-Tie-in-Device-picture










.


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## PatBeek

I thought the following was all great advice from another thread:



> D Semple
> 
> Location
> Stillwell, KS
> 
> 
> Default Re: second story cutout
> 
> Removing bees from the inside of a home is messy. Tarps, tarps, and more tarps. Also, I hang shear .5 mil plastic from the ceiling on down to cut down on the amount of space in the room to keep the bees corraled better. I also plastic of all the walls.
> 
> I'm not a fan of bee vacs but when doing removals on the inside of the home they really help a lot. When you open that wall up alot of the bees are going to be flying to the light of the windows and your not going to be able to get them to orient to a box inside a room. Without a beevac I would block all the light from the windows and use dim red artificial light, or do the removal at night.
> 
> If your not careful, your going to end up spending way more time cleaning up and repainting than the removal will take. When I do inside removals I bring an assistant to do nothing but vacuum bees.
> 
> I would strongly suggest you put this one on hold for a month or maybe 6 weeks (still way to early to do removals as far north as Peoria anyway) and cut your teeth on a couple of easier removals from the ouside of a home, and then come back and attempt this one. Or line up somebody with a lot of experiance to take the lead on this one and you just assist.
> 
> Whole different can of worms regards
> 
> 
> Don


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## PatBeek

Well this comment I received from a cut-out expert in my general area rocks-the-boat on this whole affair.

I reached-out to someone local by doing a search for local removal services because I don't think my previous contact is willing to help in this case.

Anyhow, here's an excerpt from his email I got today:



> Soffits rarely go into the ceiling or wall so inside cutout would not work. Flat roofs are an exception, as would a dormer. Who advised inside cutout?. If its in the soffet its usually in the soffit, 2nd story means off a ladder or lift depending. Its not a two man job on a ladder.


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## ScoutBee

PatBeek said:


> Well this comment I received from a cut-out expert in my general area rocks-the-boat on this whole affair.
> 
> I reached-out to someone local by doing a search for local removal services because I don't think my previous contact is willing to help in this case.
> 
> Anyhow, here's an excerpt from his email I got today:



Your situation IS a dormer. Did you send him a picture?


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## beegeorge

with the IR thermometer, and the scope, you can accurately determine if the bees are only in the soffit, moved intothe wall, or even other area,, you never know until you look..

that is the reason for my recommending the tools,, it removes all the speculation you are getting on here


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## PatBeek

ScoutBee said:


> Your situation IS a dormer. Did you send him a picture?


Yes, I sure did. I first sent him a link to this thread, but he may not be able to view it since he may not be a member yet. I embedded them in my response email.


Thanks.


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## PatBeek

beegeorge said:


> with the IR thermometer, and the scope, you can accurately determine if the bees are only in the soffit, moved intothe wall, or even other area,, you never know until you look..
> 
> that is the reason for my recommending the tools,, it removes all the speculation you are getting on here


Alright, I just need to order the stuff.


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## jredburn

Pat
The house either has the wall made of wood studs or cement blocks with the brick being a veneer. Either way the walls are built up to the ceiling height and capped with a horizontal 2 x wooden plate, the roof rafters come down and sit on this plate and are attached to it. There is a gap between the rafters that is left open for ventilation. It is about 2 1/2" high by 22' wide. It provides ventilation from the soffit into the attic and out the top of the roof. Bees can enter the wall at the edge of the soffit and continue into the attic or in this case into the empty space from the front wall to the inside wall under the dormer window. This is probably where you are going to find them.
Hope this helps
Joe


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## robherc

Having worked construction in OH for a dozen years earlier in life, I agree completely with jredburn...at least on 98% of the construction I've seen. The only exception would be on a stone house that I own; it was built with dirt floors originally & everything else was hodge-podged on for the last 50+ years. That one actually had the soffits sealed off from the attic/roof; but it's pretty much a 1-case scenario & not in any way related to the home in your pictures.

I wish we lived about 12hrs closer together, I'd come help you out with this one, but if you can't find anyone local to help, I think you have most all of the information you need in this thread. Just plan on it taking about 3-4x longer than you expect as it's still only your 2nd cut-out so you're still going to me moving a little nervously (I was), but I have faith in you, you'll do a good job of it!


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## PatBeek

Thanks jredburn and robherc.

And robherc, yes, that would be a blast, wouldn't it? I almost feel guilty getting paid for all of this because it's so fun, but I have to justify it for the wife.

I think I may have secured a very experienced central Florida removal expert. We have tentatively agreed on the money situation, but he still thinks, even after seeing the photos, that it's a soffit job.. Haha, I think I agree with you all that it goes beyond that area. 

Here's an excerpt from his email:



> I am still betting soffet.


.


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## PatBeek

Is gambling legal on this site?

Who wants to go JUST for soffit?

Who is going for the soffit AND wall/attic?

Of course I don't know yet, but will very soon.


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## robherc

With as much noise as you were saying you heard from that window, I'll take the chance on you & bet 500 worker bees on wall/attic, the soffit part I'm not sure on; they could be using it for comb, or they could simply be entering there & traveling further in before building. I did a cut-out in a horse barn where the bees went in about 3.5' from the entrance, past loads of empty space, 'til they found a spot that was "just right" for whatever reason & started building...I couldn't tell any difference between that particular spot & the entire 12' of the rest of the wall section they were in...bees do what bees decide to do.


P.S. If I lose this bet, the winner has to come to my bee yard to collect...attitude of bees is not guaranteed, but they *may* be enoucouraged to give you your payment in STINGERS!  Mwah ha ha ha!


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## PatBeek

robherc said:


> With as much noise as you were saying you heard from that window, I'll take the chance on you & bet 500 worker bees on wall/attic,


Only 500?

I'm betting several thousand in the attic/walls.

And hey, I may be in Texas in the next few months doing work. I grew up in Dallas. But I will be working in the Houston area.

I'm not even sure where Calhoun County is.


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## robherc

t: Houston & my bee yard are just under 3hrs apart. If you want to PM me about meeting sometime before you come down, we might be able to make plans to meet somewhere.

As far as the 500 workers, it's 100 less than the LD50 dosage of venom in humans...so usually wouldn't be lethal, but ALWAYS would hurt...a LOT


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## Medic1259

robherc said:


> :
> As far as the 500 workers, it's 100 less than the *LD50* dosage of venom in humans...so usually wouldn't be lethal, but ALWAYS would hurt...a LOT


Thats a medic statement if I ever heard one...lol


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## PatBeek

This cut-out won't happen until Monday the 30th approx. The original gentleman who I worked with before is back on board with this job. The other company I got fell through because they wanted a deposit from the owner "for unforseeable issues". The owner got pissed off about that. 

So anyhow, I won't have any photos/videos for a week.

Thanks again for everyone's help.


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## WISHBONE

PatBeek said:


> This cut-out won't happen until Monday the 30th approx. The original gentleman who I worked with before is back on board with this job. The other company I got fell through because they wanted a deposit from the owner "for unforseeable issues". The owner got pissed off about that.
> 
> So anyhow, I won't have any photos/videos for a week.
> 
> Thanks again for everyone's help.


i agree with jredburn. bees will likely be in soffit or between rafters.i've done several cutouts like this and bees have been in soffit every time. its vinyl soffit, so you can unsnap the locking edge & pull down a little to see up into the cavity, thus being able to know where the bees are. if in rafters you can take the shingles off on a cool morning & remove a section of roof sheeting to get to the bees. take care not to damage flashing around dormer. remove bees & put sheeting & shingles back. should be a very easy job.bare in mind ive been building houses for 40 years & been around bees all my life. if i can be of any help with any questions please let me know. Randy


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## robherc

I just did my church cut-out that I'd told you about tonight Pat ... bees were going in @ the corner where the bottom of the roof met 2 walls. When I pulled up the flashing & removes a couple decorative fascia boards on the corner I saw bees coming out along over 1' total of the 3/4" plywood roof decking. Once I saw that, I knew it was time to start prying up the roof as the most likely target for finding the combs. Pried up the roof about 1/4" & saw a few combs hanging off the underside of the decking ... suspicion confirmed. At the end of the removal, I had cut a fairly neat 18"x36" approx. hole in the roof, without damaging any of the rafters (used a circ. saw & adjusted the depth to just barely MISS cutting all the way through the ply...then used the prybar to lift it up until it separated the rest of the way) & was able to remove 90% of the bees (including the queen) and 100% of the comb, leaving the parishoners quite happy over the small amount of damage done. 
The moral of the story is, pay attention to the signs the bees give you. Start with the most obvious & least damaging steps, then just go where the bees point you & you'll find them everytime; usually while causing a minimum of damage (unless, of course, it's a monstrous 4'x5' hive that's 5-6years old...then the damage will be a lot greater...lol). You don't necessarily need to go out & spend $500 on gadgets to do the job; they don't hurt, but a little skill, attention, and patience can easily replace them 9 of 10 times. 

I'll bee looking forward to your pics/vids & updates next Tues!


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## PatBeek

.


robherc,

That sounds like quite the cut-out.

How are those bees doing now?

Did you have to vacuum any?


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## PatBeek

WISHBONE said:


> if i can be of any help with any questions please let me know. Randy


Thanks.....and I also forwarded your advice to the gentleman who will be helping.


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## robherc

I left the bees in my vac until about an hour ago (made the vac with the intention of being able to "hive" them in it for a day or two safely as my bee yard's a 45min drive away) when I hived them. I transferred the bars & frames into one of my swarm boxes (7-frame deep), whacked the box on the ground, then shook all the bees in over the bars & frames, just like a package of bees. Ended up seeing about maybe a hundred or so dead bees, but those could just as easily been injured by the cut-out process, as by the vac itself, so overall I'd call the vac an astounding success (especially considering that the first one I made was a total failure)! 
If you're interested, I'm planning to post the design for my bee vac in a new thread sometime in the next couple days...with construction plans.


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## NCbeek

jredburn said:


> Instead of smoke try sugar water spray. Then suck them up with a bee vac.
> Regards
> Joe


Just a thought about that. Sugar water makes them sticky and will gum them up in the hose of the vacuum. The inside of the hose will be sticky and constantly clog with bees who are sticking to each other no matter how little water you use. You won't need smoke or sugar water IMHO.


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## robherc

I agree with NCbeek ... this cut-out I used the bee vac, and only the bee vac. No smoke OR syrup & things were still nice and smooth/calm. Hard for bees to come at you from the inside of the vac box. :banana:
Just make sure your vac's saving them, not killing them.


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## WISHBONE

PatBeek said:


> Thanks.....and I also forwarded your advice to the gentleman who will be helping.


PatBeek, looking at your inside pictures, it looks like there might be 3 or 4 feet between the bottom of the window & the floor. if so, there should be attic access. if that is the garage to the right you could go thru that attic space into the space between upstairs wall & boxing(soffit). if its framed the way we do, it will have subfloor on the joist in that attic area. its unlikely bees will be in walls or floor system because of insulation. to me it looks like a fairly easy job. i normally get about 300.00 repairs included if its close to home for stuff like that. 864-809-0026


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## PatBeek

.

Are we ready to settle some bets now?

.


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## PatBeek




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## mrqb

Bravo...well done and very nice video...now who owes who???


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## PatBeek

mrqb said:


> Bravo...well done and very nice video...now who owes who???


Hehehe, well, no one knew for sure. Every situation is different. 

But yeah, we went up into the attic directly above that room after we found out the soffit was a complete dead end. There were no signs of bees in the attic above that room - no dead ones or anything.

Roberts IR temperature gauge gave us no usable results.

So, we just listened to the wall again to see where the buzzing was the strongest and made the decision to go for it. The first cut was on the right side of the stud, but no biggie. I don't think we did too much damage considering what it could have been. We also siliconed the outside soffit entrance and the bees were amassed there as were were wrapping things up.

Some of you may be wondering why I had to feed them other honey besides their own (yes I know the controversy with AFB problems, etc), but the hive had almost zero honey stores. I believe it was a young and struggling hive, especially with the wax-moth larvae taking hold. I'm pretty sure we got most of those larvae out of there, so I'll have to keep an eye on that and research how to try to control it. My partner-in-crime, Robert, says that keeping the hive in full sun makes the wax moths die-off or unable to take hold. Can anyone confirm or deny that with your personal experience? My hive has full morning and afternoon sun up until about 1 or 2 pm.

Regarding the scene where the bee vac had the bottom open and the bees making a mecca into the lower TBH, well, obviously something like that should be done right at home where the new hive will be set up. Unfortunately, that was Robert's bee vac and my top bar hive and we don't live too close to each other We made the decision to just do it in the driveway of the cut-out house.

I will be building my own bee vac soon enough, however.

I appreciate very much everyone's tips and comments on this whole matter.

Please feel free to offer more advice on what happened and the hive in its present state.

Oh, one more thing - I can't confirm it for sure - but I THINK I may have the queen in my hive. There is still a ball of bees in a corner ceiling. The hive is very active with bees cleaning debris and making orientation flights, so hopefully they are going to survive just fine without too many interventions.

.


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## DLMKA

nice job! Looks like a clean removal with minimal repairs needed.


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## PatBeek

DLMKA said:


> nice job! Looks like a clean removal with minimal repairs needed.


And to be honest, the owner agreed to take care of any repairs. I know some of you do drywall, etc, repair, but MAN that's asking a bee expert to wear a lot of hats. I hope you all are getting paid well to do the repairs as well.

Thanks, DLMKA !


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## robherc

Looks pretty good...glad I had faith in your powers of observation too...since *I WON!!!*

BTW, I designed a bee-vac that can hold top bars/frames and function as a (temporary) hive...so I can drop the cut-out combs back into the vac with the bees...then not have to be in any particular hurry to re-hive them 
P.M. or email me if you want designs.


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## PatBeek

Thanks for the plans you sent, robherc. Much appreciated.

By the way, as my new cut-out hive stands, There is plenty of activity going in-and-out - I even saw a forager with pollen on her legs coming in this evening.

But I am assuming the other portion of the hive is still acting in a swarm-mode because they are still balled-up around (I'm praying) the queen in a top corner. 

From what I understand, comb should start emerging from within that ball within the next couple of weeks. 

Is there any other reason they'd be balled-up in a top corner like that? We did but a couple of drops of lemongrass oil in that hive during the cut-out, but I doubt they'd be balled-up around just that scent area, right? 

I have a queen, don't I?

Please tell me I have a queen and my hive is going to make it.

Are there any support groups for coping with failed post-cut-outs?


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## Nmace

If there is a support group, please send me the details...I need it after the cutout we did last week.


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## PatBeek

Nmace said:


> If there is a support group, please send me the details...I need it after the cutout we did last week.


lol.

Do you have a link to any details? ....or can you post the details here? Would love to hear about it.

It doesn't have anything to do with THIS thread, does it?

(yikes, this is pretty scathing)

*Bee Removal is not for IDIOTS*

By the way, your signature line at the bottom is hilarious.


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## PatBeek

Oh and another thing I forgot to mention about my cut-out bees is they seem disinterested in honey at this point. I realize they are in a stressful transitional period, but geez. 

They ARE drinking water, however.

As seen in the video, I placed the honey/water in a small bowl with sticks behind the follower-board (that has a hole in it for them to pass through). I haven't seen any bees consuming it nor has the level gone down.

As an experiment, thinking that perhaps they just didn't think to crawl through that hole, I placed a small splash of honey on the entrance ramp towards the evening time. I sat there for about 10 minutes and didn't see any takers.

Could this be because maybe they gorged on honey when we did the cut-out? But they didn't even really have any honey.

My guess is that it's just a stressful transition period. But they seem chill now and have seemed that way the entire operation. We didn't get head-butted even once during all of that. It seemed like they almost welcomed our arrival. They are definitely a sweet set of bees. I hope they survive with that queen. But hey, I guess sweet bees don't necessarily equal strong survival genes.


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## robherc

PatBeek said:


> Thanks for the plans you sent, robherc. Much appreciated.


You're quite welcome, just be sure to send me any ideas you may have for improving it...I'm always looking to improve on a good thing 




PatBeek said:


> But I am assuming the other portion of the hive is still acting in a swarm-mode because they are still balled-up around (I'm praying) the queen in a top corner.
> 
> From what I understand, comb should start emerging from within that ball within the next couple of weeks.


There's already comb being built in that ball...they usually start within hours!
As far as "swarm mode" or why they're in that ball...it's called "festooning" look it up in the new Glossary that Barry's asking us to all donate photos for & you'll see a pic of about 40-50 of my girls festooning off a comb guide  Festooning is how they build the combs. 




PatBeek said:


> I have a queen, don't I?
> 
> Please tell me I have a queen and my hive is going to make it.
> 
> Are there any support groups for coping with failed post-cut-outs?


You might, and you might not...either way, if you spliced in a good amount of brood comb, it doesn't really matter. They can make a new queen for themselves as long as there's one single (fertilized) egg, or appropriately aged larva, in the hive! (makes 'em fairly resilient that way) 
As far as support groups go, I think the worst thing to do is give them more brood comb than they can cover...I lost the first several hives I got from cut-outs because I spliced in more comb than I had bees for (before I started using my vac), then the SHB and WM moved in, not to mention the RIFA...and the bees either died off, or absconded. Now I keep more bees alive with my vac, and I make sure to not splice in too much comb for the # of bees I got...painful lesson, but well learned!


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## PatBeek

Thanks, robherc.

Yes, Ive heard of festooning, but I always thought of that term meaning when they make that chain to measure-out and/or draw-out comb.......but I'm a newb, so I appreciate that info.

And as far as adding more brood comb with eggs so they can raise a queen, .............wellllllllll......this is my first and only hive. Hopefully - if the queen isn't there - they already had some eggs to work with. I haven't studied the comb in detail because I want to leave them alone and let them do their thing. My pal Robert who accompanied me on this cut-out recommended that if no brood comb starts emerging after about 2-3 weeks, then just get a new queen. 

And point well taken on handing a hive too much brood. If they can't handle the chore, I can see how predators can move in and wreak havoc. You can have too much of a good thing, obviously, in that case.

But one more point about that ball-of-bees you say are festooning (and I'll leave this alone because I realize this is a cut-out thread) - that ball has been there ever since we were doing the cut-out. That's why I'm hopeful the queen is in there.

Thanks everyone.


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## WISHBONE

PatBeek said:


> And to be honest, the owner agreed to take care of any repairs. I know some of you do drywall, etc, repair, but MAN that's asking a bee expert to wear a lot of hats. I hope you all are getting paid well to do the repairs as well.
> 
> Thanks, DLMKA !


looks like ya'll did a good job & its good experience. i do repairs because i'm a licensed & bonded builder. i carry general liability & workers comp. insurance & that makes jobs more costly. i have 2 bee vacs. one i built from beesource plans, its like a box in a box. the other i built from Robo's plans. i like Robo's the best. your bees wil probably do good, but somtimes they will die out or just leave. i usually put a frame of brood with eggs in just in case something happens to the queen. i caught a huge swarm(about 6 gallons of bees) 2 weeks ago & they left a 2 days later. they was building comb & appeared to be settled in. that is a nice video. have a good day.


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## PatBeek

Thanks, Wishbone.

Regarding the post-problems I'm having with larvae, I moved that party to the following thread I just started so as to not get too off-topic in this thread:

*Do I disturb the comb-building to kill these last two wax moth larvae? (photo)*

So basically, real quick, I went in today and found the larvae had exploded in the comb I tried to salvage. I did a complete house-cleaning (so I thought) and threw away all the existing comb. There are two larvae left where they are building comb right smack up against the follower board. 

Here's a photo, but the discussion for that aspect is over there now:


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## DLMKA

PatBeek said:


> And to be honest, the owner agreed to take care of any repairs. I know some of you do drywall, etc, repair, but MAN that's asking a bee expert to wear a lot of hats. I hope you all are getting paid well to do the repairs as well.
> 
> Thanks, DLMKA !


I've not done any cutouts but hoping to do my first this weekend. I'm not planning on doing any repairs other than sealing up the enterance to keep returning foragers from getting back in.


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## PatBeek

.

*Folks, I took some decisive action today.

The following photos speak for themselves:*













*Ahhhhh, look how beautiful - gettin' busy, building their own comb, wax-moth-larvae-free:
*


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## PatBeek

.

I must apologize because the initial pictures I showed at the beginning of the whole thread didn't tell the whole story of the wall that the bees were in. It was an honest mistake on my part.

The photos didn't show how much the dormer window wall extended outward from the exterior wall.

Here is a more telling photo:











So therefore, due to my lack-of-experience with surveying a site, I kinda misled some of you as far as how the house and wall are constructed.

Sorry about that.

You all didn't have the big picture (no pun intended).


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## PatBeek

I also snapped a bunch of photos of the event.

Here are some that I thought might be of interest:

*Room ready to go:*











*Trying to get an exact location. This was to the right of the stud and the insulation was in the way anyhow:*










*The first cut we made missed to the right of the stud and hive......no biggie though:*











*Comb riddled with wax moth larvae - all was trashed a few days later:*











*A couple of shots of the bees in the wall after most of the comb was removed:*




















*They had some queen cups being built. Were they blaming the old queen for the infestation?....or perhaps running out of space?*











*Here are a couple of photos of bees gathering at the soffit after the removal was winding-down. Robert had placed silicone in the bee access areas. Robert says - in his experience - that the bees eat through caulk but stay away from silicone.*


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