# Experience with MS



## AstroBee

We have a family friend with progressive MS. He has tried conventional treatments, but is still progressing. Its scary and very sad to witness. He is now unable to walk without assistance and uses a wheelchair most times. He is a young man (mid 30's) with young kids at home. We desperately want to help and have read books, but what I ask today is from those who have direct experience with MS and using BVT. Please no hype, I'm looking for advice from someone with first hand experience. 

Specifically:

1. What is the likelihood that a properly administerd BVT regiment will help improve his condition.
2. What are the most effective areas to focus the stings.
3. Please help with any general advice.

Thank you.


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## odfrank

I would think he has "relapsing and remitting" MS. I have kept bees since I was 18 and got "slowly progressive MS" at age 40. I have always been stung regularly due to my work with bees, and my MS has progressed very slowly in 20 years. There is a woman somewhere that specializes in BVT for MS.


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## brooksbeefarm

OlFrank, I think the woman your thinking about was at Branson,Mo. last week at our Mo. State bee meeting converence. I wasn't there, but i heard she gave a talk on BVT.Astrobee i'll try to get her name if you like. Jack


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## Honey-4-All

Astro,

Is BVT for real or just hype?

We looked into it when it became popular 15+years back. My wife had been diagnosed 5 years prior, was getting weaker and was pregnant with our daughter. We decided to withhold attempting the bvt treatment at that time as the affects on an unborn baby were unknown. Have a wonderful daughter. Her goal is to be a neurologist so she can help other people with MS. Well on her way. Glad we didn't take the chance. 

We did supply bees to many people attempting to use bees for bvt back then. Don't get many calls forth em any more. All the folks we supplied quit after upwards of 3-5 years of "trying."

My wife has been wheelchair bound for about 13+ years now. I can understand why people might think the stings will help. I am not saying they don't. Since I hang around with a lot of Ms people and researchers I can tell you that MS is a widely varied disease. It varies so much that to say it "cures" someone may just a fluke or that the "patient" has a type that comes and goes( relapsing/ remitting MS) 

I don't think it would hurt for your friend try bvt. If he has a form of progressive ms that is really debilitating you might want to find out ways that you can assist his family. Families living with a member with MS revolve their whole life around their care. Help with simple things help make life a little more bearable. Everything from taking his kids to school once a week to cleaning a plugged drain all need to be done. 

The best thing about living with a person with MS is that you get to see the real side of people very clearly. It gives people the opportunity to take advantage of you and assist you. I have seen both extremes in human behavior as a direct result. Good that the vultures and thieves are outnumbered by the people wrapped in angel clothing.

Hope your humble enough to be an angel.


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## Bee Bliss

What books have you read if I may ask?

I understand wanting to hear from those with MS who have experienced BVT and to hear what they have to say about their experiences. I can't help you with first hand experience, but I can give you some information to help you with this and point you in a direction. Hopefully you can find them.

MS is treated with more than BVT. Nutrition and "exercise" is important. Detoxing the body.
Bee venom travels in the blood stream and also along nerve pathways promoting healing.

There is a medical doctor who treats patients with MS. He claims that MS is not an autoimmune disease, but rather a nutritional one and that that is why drugs don't work. He has his patients eat a high protein diet so their body can use the protein to repair the myelin sheath around the nerves. He also gives them Vitamin B shots (I would think oral would also work). An apitherapist has take it a step further and adds BVT to that doctor's treatment and states that results are faster with the BVT.
Read the section on MS on www.beewelltherapy.com and the testimonials also.

A person with first hand experience with MS that is now an apitherapist is Pat Wagner (How Well are you Willing to Bee?). She described herself as a breathing corpse. She claims that BVT did more for her than any drug. In fact, she blames MS drugs for much of her "damage" today. She has written a book and has included sting charts. She was in a wheel chair permanently until she started BVT. She stings people in her home.

Charles Mraz (Health and the Honey Bee) stung people for more than 60 years for arthritis, etc. including MS. 

From what I read online, there is another person or two with MS that became an apitherapist. Dr. Celeste Pepe (MS sufferer) has written a book, "Reversing Multiple Sclerosis" and also speaks of nutrition, mercury fillings, etc. and BVT. http://www.dancingbeeacres.com/ReverseMS.html

*Maybe you could contact an apitherapist and they could have one of their MS patients contact you. * American Apitherapy Society has a website.

I gave quite a bit of this information including the information on the high protein diet and B vitamins to a friend to give to a friend with MS. He was also nearly blind from the MS. My apitherapist suggested the BVT and in addition suggested that he take the bee venom eye drops for his eyesight. I don't think he did any of it.

Sting iced areas: Along the spine, along the body nerve pathways on trigger spots, specific locations and scars. Areas are rotated. Ice really helps.

Take pollen in the form of man-made bee bread (helps break down the coating around the pollen and aid digestion), propolis, royal jelly and raw honey.

Help is where you find it. Some people only trust doctors. Some people don't want to get better!!


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## Riverratbees

Hey I feel for him I saw on national Geographic a story about apitherapy this lady had M/S. Ask your friend if he has a spot on his body that is always cold. It might be the size of a quarter or as big as a baseball. That is where she started the lady for 3 weeks 5 stings in cold spot 3 time a week by end of 3rd week the M/S patient was showing signs of improvement. Because the lady showed improvement her worst pain was in 1 of her arms and she had been stung in the arm where the nerves are closest to the skin to make a long story short 1yr later she was thriving. And hell apithrapy has been around 4 thousands of yrs. Alot longer than these meds on the market that Drs push and it is not nearly as expensive I hope this helps with a idea hope your friend can get his life back.


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## Bethany83

*AstroBee:*

You can definitely suggest it...there are dozens of alternative "therapies" that are touted when it comes to MS. However, there is no cure. Medications or therapies _may_ temporarily pause or delay the effects and/or progression in some cases. But the MS is still there and its not going away.

One thing to be careful of though...when my dad was dying of MS, I remember a lady in our neighborhood who suggested a myriad of "alternative therapies" and none of them worked. I think eventually my dad just let her try them on him to make her happy. But I'm sure the spark of hope, and then the failure was hard to bear over and over.

I'm sure this family has already investigated the therapies available. So suggest it, and then leave it alone. Don't be offended or disappointed if they say "thanks, but no thanks." They have been through so much, and at some point, the inevitable truth takes over.



> I would think he has "relapsing and remitting" MS.


It doesn't sound like relapsing remitting to me if he has steadily gotten worse, going from a walker, to now a wheelchair. It sounds like primary progressive. 

There is no known cure for any type of MS. Medications can only slow down progression of the disease (in _some_ cases), but it cannot stop it. And most medications only help with relapsing/remitting kinds of MS. 

There is just no way to prove that bee stings work. Even if a few people happen to get better, you never know how their disease was going to progress anyway, with or without the bee stings. Every single case is different. There can't be a variable and a constant.

Does that mean you shouldn't try it? No, go ahead...you've got nothing to lose when it comes to MS. 



> There is a medical doctor who treats patients with MS. He claims that MS is not an autoimmune disease, but rather a nutritional one and that that is why drugs don't work.


That is absolute bunk. Just because they don't currently have a cure, doesn't mean that its all just a "nutritional problem". I find that incredibly offensive after watching my father and his sister both die of MS (primary progressive). 

Again, sure, try whatever you want, but there is no cure. What "works" for one person won't necessarily work for someone else, not only because there are 4 identified different types of MS, but its also different in every case, even among those with the same "type". 



> Help is where you find it. Some people only trust doctors. Some people don't want to get better!!


My dad tried countless "alternative therapies" and none of them worked. Do you think he wanted to die in the prime of his life and leave behind two children? Do you think he wanted to miss out on being a grandfather? No, he didn't. But there comes a point when you realize the disease is going to kill you no matter what you do. It is just so cruel to dismiss their deaths as "they just didn't want to get better". 

When people blame others for dying from an incurable disease, I think I've seen it all.


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## mdm106

Hello I am a nurse at a major hosptial in Tyler,Texas. I had a pt with advanced ms. Bed ridden very very bad shape. I told them about the bvt and they discharged her to go home to die. Well a year later this lady all dressed up fancy and Smile from ear to ear came up to me on the floor at the hospital and said bet you never guess who I am. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh I said nipe. sorry. When she told me she was the ms pt I almost 
passed out. She said she went home and her husband started calling people about the bvt and she started it and had complete remission. 
Good luck hope you have the same


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## odfrank

I have felt strong and vigorous the last few days. Two recent stings right between the eyes might be to thank for that.


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## Bee Bliss

Everyone,

I appreciate the opportunity, even at this late date, the chance to clarify some things that I feel are important. I have given this response some thought and time.
Why do I bother to provide information about bee venom therapy, etc.?................ because I am trying to help by giving people information they can check out to help them make informed choices in health matters. I have read so, so much about Bee Venom Therapy for MS and other medical problems and I share the information as it could change someone's life. Even if only one person listens, it is worth it.

For anyone who does not think that nutrition also makes a difference in preventing disease or treating it.......I offer these...........scurvy (Vitamin C deficency), pregnant women take folic acid to prevent open spine in their babies, salt is fortified with iodine to prevent goiter. There are many, many more. The doctor that treats MS with vitamins and protein, etc. is mentioned in http://www.beewelltherapy.com/ Click on the MS section and look also at the testimonials on that site. This is the section that mentions the medical doctor that believes that MS is not an autoimmune disease and how he treats it. Hormones are also mentioned as a possible cause on that page. An apitherapist has added BVT to what that doctor's treatment is.

Another point on nutrition... how is the body to repair itself or heal if it does not have the materials to do so? Also, people are warned not to feed the animals at the zoo because it can cause harm due to the fact that it is not the proper diet the animals need to stay healthy.

I was struck by a movie I saw years ago called "Lorenzo's Oil'. The message from it was powerful and inspiring. Parents who were not doctors searched for ways to help their son's serious medical problems. It's a must-see movie. Another nutritional/dietary solution.

I said: "Help is where you find it. Some people only trust doctors. Some people don't want to get better."
I was actually talking about a wide range of medical conditions....serious and not serious conditions....not just MS at that point. To set the record straight, I am in no way saying that people dying from an incurable disease "just didn't want to get better" and I certainly didn't imply that just because they don't try alternative treatments. In no way do I blame them. I do not dismiss anyone's death as "they just didn't want to get better". And, I am not a cruel person. I do not appreciate someone misusing my words. 

Some people don't have the information about trying alternatives and, therefore, that choice is lost to them. I do know people that did more for themselves in addition to what the doctors were doing for them. My dad lives because of that. His health only improved greatly when he added supplements for his heart. Some people mix the alternatives with the treatment from the doctor. 

Not all alternative remedies are effective, and some work for some and not for others. But, Bethany83, please don't dismiss them all just because your father tried "countless alternative therapies" and "none of them worked". I am sorry for your loss and I am sure the whole family suffered right along with him. There are many people that are reporting that BVT, apitherapy or other alternatives have helped them. You can't take that away from them. 

I have also seen loved ones die from many different illnesses/health conditions through the years. In one case, my aunt was being treated by state of the art university hospital with fine doctors for her rheumatoid arthritis. They didn't help her. One doctor had her on medication for RA and was supposed to monitor her organs as that drug was known to cause kidney damage (unknown to her). He didn't. Her kidneys were destroyed which further crippled her health! A medical doctor did that to her! 

Another aunt died from MS when I was a child. I have had many relatives die of cancer, Lou Gehrigs disease, diabetes, etc. Some now have Parkinsons, Lyme disease, cancer, etc. Some died before I found out what I now know about apitherapy, but now....some I am able to help by giving them information so that they can make their choice. Yes, it is their decision, I RESPECT THAT AND DON'T PUSH. But, yes it is disappointing to me to see the disease get worse and they do not even check out the information I have given them. Again, total blind faith/trust in doctors who's only way of treating them is to push more drugs at them. My uncle is quite proud of his small suitcase of drugs he takes for Parkinsons. He is actually the one I was thinking about when I said "some don't want to get better".

I am a firm believer that our immune systems and our bodies have the capability of either keeping us well or helping us heal. The body also needs to be given the opportunity to do so by providing it what it needs in order to do that (nutrition, etc.). Much research needs to be done in the area of BVT and the benefits of pollen, propolis, royal jelly, bee bread, beeswax. The problem is the pharmaceutical companies and many of the doctors are against it. The money needs to be there for research.

Bottom line: Work with the body, not against it. People should research what is going on with their health so they are informed enough to work with their doctor and make their own informed decisions. Why do most of our country's doctors automatically reject the alternatives when their patient reports that it worked for them or helped them? The pharmaceutical companies are very powerful and very profitable. They have a lot of influence over our doctors.

Yes, help is where you find it.


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## AstroBee

Thanks to all who replied. I really appreciate your efforts. Particulary Bethany as I cannot even comprehend the agony that someone in this condition must deal with. And yes, his condition is progressive - no remissions.

An update: We managed to deliver BVT for 5 weeks on a 3 times per week schedule with about 12 stings per session. My wife was managing the application of the stings and I give her lots of credit for giving it her best. His overall condition didn't really change. Yes, I know that 5 weeks is not enough time to evaluate success or failure, but he decided that he was going to stop BVT and try another conventional path. There were a couple of times during the treatment when we thought that there was a glimmer of hope. One time in particular was a day after a session when he called to say that he slept the whole night without pain, something he hadn't done in three years. This event came (I believe at about 3 weeks into BVT). This was not a consistent reaction despite our attempts to repeat the sting sites that led to the observation. I believe that he decided to stop because he is desparate for relief and I guess the results weren't substaintial enough to continue. We did not push him to continue, we simply offered him an option of BVT and did the leg-work to make it happen. 

Again, thanks to all who contributed.


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## BeeGhost

While in Home Depot getting stuff to build more bee related stuff I had a gal come up to me to ask what I thought of the paint sprayer I was looking at and what I was going to use it for, a very random situation. Anyhow, I told her that I was going to use it to paint bee hives, she immediatley asked if I had any BEE POLLEN for sale, I said nope, not this year anyhow as I am small time, but maybe next year. I asked why she wanted the pollen, she replied that she had MS and was confined to a wheel chair for quite some time. She started taking bee pollen and said her symptoms went into remission and she could walk again. She said that she continues to consume the pollen and it helps her greatly. Just food for thought on this subject!


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## beemandan

For about fifteen years I had plantars warts on the bottom of one of my feet. Every couple of years they would get bad enough that I’d have to have them surgically removed. I had allowed them to get especially bad and was delaying removal as I knew it would keep me off my feet for a couple of weeks. At about this time I began beekeeping. After a few months of active beekeeping, it dawned on me one morning that my foot wasn’t bothering me. I sat on the edge of a bed and took a look….and they were totally gone! It was one of the most amazing surprises I’d ever had. I was unaware of bvt, so it couldn’t have been psychosomatic. The next time I went to my dermatologist, I told him about it. He said that there were people with ms who seemed to get some benefit from bee venom and ms was an autoimmune illness as are plantars warts. I’ve kept bees for over a decade since and the warts have not returned.


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## robherc

Any updates from anyone with experiences re: BVT (or bee pollen therapy) with MS in the past year (since the last post in this thread)? My wife has been getting bounced back-and-forth between nerologists who've all said "MS" at least a few times during her visits, but none will give a "concrete" diagnosis yet...anywise, from all of my hours of research (I'm well over 100hrs now) I'm going with the assumption that it's "relapsing and remitting" MS, and she & I are both VERY interested in any/all proven, or at least highly plausible, "alternative" treatments. At least that way we can try SOMETHING to help, while the DRs are busy spending the last 4 years twiddling their fingers!


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## odfrank

MS is hard to definitely diagnose. The old wives test: Is her walking and balance affected by a hot bath? Has she had that test where she is sent down the tube? Is it called MR test? They can then sometimes see lesions on her brain and spine. I kept bees for 20 years before I got MS and 20 years since I got MS and it's progression has been very slow. I get stung fairly regularly.


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## robherc

odfrank said:


> Has she had that test where she is sent down the tube? Is it called MR test? <snip>
> They can then sometimes see lesions on her brain and spine.


She's had 1 MRI...but I saw it, it was taken on such old equipment that it looked like whatever you wanted to imagine it looked like, lol...picture was as clear as mud...thick mud. Oh yeah, and they've never MRI'd her spine, just one of the brain.



> The old wives test: Is her walking and balance affected by a hot bath?


A hot bath? How about just anytime the weather gets over 80*F...and she can't walk right, or speak without slurring like a drunk, often can't even type well afterwords & I find her sobbing at the computer 'cuz she suddenly can't think or type well enough to complete her homework for her online classes.

As an aside; I worked with a PA (Dr) in the military when she started having sysmptoms. After she'd been to the ER a couple of times, but before we'd gotten her in to see a neurologist, I presented her symptoms to him as a "hypothetical patient." About 3/4 of the way through the list of symptoms, he said: "Whoever your friend is, he needs to get in for an MS workup!" I then told him it was my wife (MS seems to be FAR more rare in men than women), to which he replied "Then it's even MORE likely, and she _REALLY_ needs to get it diagnosed." That's kinda along the lines of what the 2nd ER doc had said too, which is why she & I started researching MS, Lupus, and other diseases with similar symptoms. One of her neurologists (the first one) even told her after the first few visits "It's either MS or Lupus, so I'm sending you for Lupus tests, and if they come back negative we'll treat for the MS." After the Lupus tests came back (and they were negative), however, he claimed to have never said that...talk about infuriating!


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## mrobinson

I like to work with doctors who are open-minded enough to consider unconventional treatments, but disciplined enough to pursue them as they would do with any other treatment. For example, I once had a friend who following surgery had seizures for a time. (No prior history, so the root cause was pretty well known.) The diagnosis was simple, but what to do to provide relief? Conventional medications _did_ suppress them, but they suppressed every other part of his life too. They were overkill; an effective alternative was desired. Someone suggested that Taurine has _(clinically established...)_ anti-seizure effects, and my friend's doctor proceeded to help him evaluate and then establish that therapy, starting with prescribed Taurine for its known and consistent chemical properties. It worked. So did certain off-the-shelf brands. But I think it was important that both of them approached the notion and then sought to apply it as a potentially viable medical treatment; not voodoo. They worked out and tested a treatment protocol, which brand of Taurine to use, and so on. They kept careful records, and observations of both the patient and the patient's companions, and as far as I know they still do. Exactly as this doctor would do with every other treatment; he encourages his patients to keep a medical diary, shows them how to do it, and reviews it periodically with them. (Has an interesting quote: _"Data is Knowledge. Knowledge is Power. Power is Hope."_) He is strongly of the opinion that "medical tests" are only one source of vital information; that careful documented observation and self-observation, as an additional source of information, is often worth far more.

The human body is a stupendously complex thing, such that not even "conventional treatments" always work or always prove to be the best choice. Medical diagnosis and treatment just isn't that _deterministic._ As one fellow put it: "there are no *if..then* statements in medicine."


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## shmiusa

I was wondering if there's anyone in Boston area who has tried BVT for MS. We want to speak to someone and try it out for our niece who has been struggling with MS which is now in worst form. I browsed thru msgs and it looks like the results are not amazing.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss

Hi shmiusa,
If you don't get a reply from someone in Boston, try apitherapy.org. You may have to join in order to get the name of someone but it is your best bet if no one on this board is in your area.
Susan


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