# I think we need another thread about CCD.



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

This one will be different, though, I promise.

See, I've got this burning question - what is CCD?

Now I realize many peoples' first response will be, "what are you, stupid?" But I will insist my question is valid. I've read numerous threads here involving CCD, or claiming to involve CCD. But I've seen people in them call what seem to be several _different_ problems "CCD". It confuses me.

When CCD first hit, my understanding (based on MAAREC's descriptions) was that the marker is one day your hive is _completely_ empty, except for maybe the queen and some capped brood. No dead bees all over the place; no small-but-evident force of nursery bees; just...nothing. Gone. Abandoned. First you see them, now you don't. And nobody in the neighborhood seems to be particularly interested in the goodies that are left behind; not even wax moths.

But I'm reading threads here about people emerging from winter to find several hives not abandoned but merely _dead_ or _extremely weak_, and calling this CCD. People have been describing their hives slowly but steadily dwindling for a reason they can't immediately identify, and they call it CCD.

Maybe I'm just reading the threads or posts wrong. I'd rather believe this, because we're all masters of our craft here (ostensibly) and I don't want to be telling somebody that he's describing a normal winter chill/starve kill or a colony succumbing to mites or whatnot as CCD, as this implies that he doesn't know what he's talking about. But the differing descriptions _are_ confusing; they make it difficult for me to apply things I've already learned about CCD to new cases. I guess what I'm trying to say is, *can you guys pick one single, homogenous definition of what symptoms, specifically and exclusively, equal CCD?*


----------



## debraC (Mar 9, 2010)

Well, I'm glad you asked! I've been wondering this myself. I recently saw a film called Vanishing of the Bees and over and over they used the word 'disappear.' But then they went on to talk about all sorts of things that could cause them to *die* (or otherwise fail). That's obviously important, but it's not the same as just up and leaving. Or, well, maybe it is all the same....


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Maybe it is; but it's so difficult to tell. The thing is, to be able to discuss something meaningfully, we've gotta have a common frame of reference. When somebody says "CCD", we all need to know exactly what he means so that our posts can be relevant. I had always thought of CCD as a specific condition, but it _seems_ that people are using it as a synonym for "the colony is weak/dying". For example, in another thread, somebody mentioned feeding certain medicines to bees suffering from CCD to keep the colony from dying completely. Except this makes zero sense to me whatsoever, because it's my understanding that when a colony has CCD _there are no bees to feed_.

Another thing that concerns me is that if we keep associating hive weakness and death with CCD, it might breed complacency. "Everyone knows" there's no certainly-known cause for CCD, and therefore no sure cure yet. I'm worried that beekeepers who find dead hives in the spring may, rather than working their brains to find out why, be tempted to just write it off as CCD and not give it much more thought than that, when those hives may have died because of a methodology problem. It's easier to blame the pesticides the guy down the road is using rather than critically examine your own way of doing things...


----------



## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

> emerging from winter to find several hives not abandoned but merely dead or extremely weak, and calling this CCD

How many bees on BB? How big (frozen) cluster vrs previous size of hive?
A normal winter dead-out has at least 1 liter (often2-3) of dead bees on BB

>my understanding that when a colony has CCD there are no bees to feed.

Treatment is for the hive beside the ccd hive, that is still there, but "sick"
If you have the suitable "lab rats" you quick enough learn to recognize the signs
You have a SMALL time window in which to make a difference

>therefore no sure cure yet
Lots of people say this, but it's not strictly true -- from previous post

I wonder how many of the posters have bees that HAVE ccd
And BTW there are 3 things that you can do
if your bees have ccd
1st VD as low as possable (always)
2nd Nosema test and control
3rd VC (vitamin C) (Treatment NOT cure-- forever)
All of above required

dave


----------



## dthompson (Feb 10, 2008)

>can you guys pick one single, homogenous definition of what symptoms, specifically and exclusively, equal CCD?

I'll take a stab at this. You won't hear these thoughts anywhere else
My bees have ccd for 4 years now, I have about as many (hives) now as at the beginning
despite (over 4yrs) more absconds than hives (& very bad WL first 3 winters)
The year previous (to ccd) I had zero WL (winter loss)

1st Rear leg symptoms -- STR, ankle rub, (rear) feet too close (#'s, >6, >3, >2)
I consider ankle rub definiative 
(requires some bees to be left, a barren dead-out is very suggestive of ccd)
(barren does NOT mean no honey, usually there is lots of honey)

2nd Favourable response to VC therapy (assumes all other possablities eliminated)
ie TM, nosema, EFB, excessive VD, pesticide exposure

The Q may be damaged, no recovery is possable then without requeening
(it is very "iffy" to let a ccd hive raise its own Q, even if strong enough)

dave


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

According to recently published research, CCD is caused by the combination of a newly discovered insect iridescent virus in conjunction with nosema ceranae.

Until the iridescent virus was discovered, there was no real definition for CCD. It was kinda like ADHD children - the symptom is the 'disease'.


----------

