# When to remove wrap



## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I removed my tarpaper yesterday, when I did my first brief inspection at 55F and sunny. Can't really inspect with the wrap stapled on.
I put wrap to protect in blizzards with high winds, for like around 15F or lower....don't really expect any more of that now, from looking at the forecast and at average temps for this time of year. I figure the wrap isn't really necessary anymore if nights are above 20F and days are above 35F.
I see wraps as a windbreaker during frigid mid-winter weather and blizzards, that's my view.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks for the response. You are further south from me and we get some crazy weather so I will hold off for a week or two. Right now it is warm but the wind is blowing like crazy. I would like to throw them a honey patty but I am afraid to pop the lid because of the strong wind.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Yes you are a bit colder than me. I bet you'll be fine to remove the wrap in another 10 days unless there's a storm forecast for you.


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## Grid (Jun 5, 2009)

This is from still further north in Western Quebec, but it may help.

http://apiculture.ncf.ca/Wintering.htm

*When to remove the winter packing (wrap)?

The hive protection is more important in spring than in winter. A cold spell will chill the brood and set the hive back. In our climate wait till the middle of May or later - not before the tomatoes are planted out.*


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> ashes or shavings may be spread on snow to reduce losses


Thanks for the reply. This was under Cleansing Flight. How do ashes and shavings reduce losses?


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## John C (Sep 19, 2010)

not 'til christmas :lpf:


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

I leave my wraps (15# felt) on well into April.Every top box has a frame feeder and the pollen patty goes under the inner cover.Most of the brood is in the top box anyhow and brood nest temps should be in the low 90's. There are no entance reducers so they can ventilate if necessary.


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

Took mine off today. Saw the "Dance of the young bees" yesterday in front of some hives. It's the earliest for such behavior that it's ever been seen - here. I attribute it to the 2 inch layer of styrofoam on top of the outer cover. The queen probably started laying earlier because of it. OMTCW


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

My problem is I am unsure how much they have left for stores. After doing some Internet research I learned that hive temps will affect consumption. If I leave the wrap on the bees might consume all they have left before the first nectar flow. Although I am not inclined to use a feeder the bees have built up comb around the hand hole in the inner cover and they congregate at that point. A feeder over that hole might not work so good. I have no idea how big the cluster is because I feel it is not warm enough or calm enough to pull the inner cover off.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

> My problem is I am unsure how much they have left for stores. After doing some Internet research I learned that hive temps will affect consumption. If I leave the wrap on the bees might consume all they have left before the first nectar flow.


They will consume a LOT more of their stores if they have to use them to generate heat to maintain the cluster temperature.

In the north, it is hard to leave them on too long in the spring. Mine stay on until mid/late April or even early May. The wraps help the colony to maintain a stable internal hive temperature. 

Look at it this way - it is unlikely that they will get so hot early in the year (in the north) that the colony is harmed, particularly since if it is that warm, they will be able to fan. 

But if they get too cold (particularly overnight when temperature swings can be extreme), you can potentially chill and lose a lot of brood. That can be a major setback to a weakened colony coming out of winter.

I grew up in upstate NY, so I am familiar with the winters there. If it were me, I would leave the wraps on until at least the first week of April.

**RE: Ashes and shavings - provide contrast between the snow on the ground and the winter sky. Bees orient their flight toward light. They can have trouble differentiating between light reflecting off of snow and open sky. Anything dark on the snow provides contrast and helps to keep them from nose diving into the snow and dying.**


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## swamprat (Jan 5, 2009)

acebird if you are concerned about honey stores them feed them some sugar mt.camp methed just put a piece of paper on top bars and put sugar on top.buy the way are you a member of the mid-york beekeepers.


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

Acebird said:


> My problem is I am unsure how much they have left for stores. After doing some Internet research I learned that hive temps will affect consumption. If I leave the wrap on the bees might consume all they have left before the first nectar flow. Although I am not inclined to use a feeder the bees have built up comb around the hand hole in the inner cover and they congregate at that point. A feeder over that hole might not work so good. I have no idea how big the cluster is because I feel it is not warm enough or calm enough to pull the inner cover off.


 You don't have to even crack open the inner cover. Since you fear disturbing them, just simply pour about 3 to 5 lbs. of granulated sugar around the hand hold where they have built comb. Try hefting the hive for its weight, if you have difficulty then it probably has enough honey. Pouring sugar onto paper directly over the cluster is like asking for ants in the spring. Especially if there is an open screen bottom board. Bees can just as well find sugar on the inner cover and this allows you to use the remainder from the inner cover for spring syrup feed. No waste and no ants. OMTCW


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## CaughtbytheGirls (Apr 1, 2010)

I live in Cortland, NY and have had two nice COLD winters in a row, 2+months continuous below 25 with many days below zero, and have some great bees from a swarm that adopted me 2 years ago. I wrap them really good in late fall w/ foam and paper and they stay that way until mid April. I keep them full of honey all winter(10 frames of Full and 10 of a Super~90lbs total).150lbs for me! They eat most of it up by spring. The fact is this, hive boxes provide minimal insulation. The bees need to maintain the proper temp throughout the entire winter. Keeping the wrap on longer will not drive them to consume more nor will it cause them to overheat. The activity of flying and collecting will not begin in earnest until the days are warm enough for blooms. They will continue to consume their stores until a true flow begins. My advice: Wrap em good in places that get harsh and keep em wrapped until lengthy cold spells are gone, warm days w/ nights in 40s are ok(we get frosts until Memorial day and I would never keep em wrapped that long because you need to get in and evaluate your queen as soon as possible). AND, here is the biggie, make sure they go into the winter w/ plenty of food!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Anything dark on the snow provides contrast and helps to keep them from nose diving into the snow and dying.**


Ah that's a good thing to know. I actually witnessed that happening and thought they were just goofy or weak.



> buy the way are you a member of the mid-york beekeepers.


Yes we are.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Since you fear disturbing them, just simply pour about 3 to 5 lbs. of granulated sugar around the hand hold where they have built comb.


We prefer not to feed sugar and have been using capping material left over from the honey harvest that I flatten into a patty and lay on top of the inner cover. I have heard that sugar is not a good spring feed because of the moisture in our area. The weather is crazy though. Yesterday it was almost 60 and today it's in the low thirties with the wind blowing. It has been so long since I have picked up an empty hive that it is hard for me to tell by weight how much honey is left. I think we have to wait to late April to inspect the hive but I am not 100% sure on that one either. We are treading new water with the bees surviving this long on the second try.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

I like to see some fresh pollen coming in first before unwrapping. I agree that preventing chilled brood is more important the worrying about starvation. 

With a large number of hives I think my odds are in my favor by waiting and trying to keep the optimal brood rearing temps into April.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> I have heard that sugar is not a good spring feed because of the moisture in our area. I think we have to wait to late April to inspect the hive but I am not 100% sure on that one either.


lack of sugar or honey is worse, if they have none they will die. My partner and I checked 150 hives the warm day. I had never put sugar on a hive since I started bees, this was a long cold winter, 20 % of the bees were dead, most starved, In thirty years I never had a three deep starve due to lack of stores, I had two this year. If in doubt give them something. we ended putting sugar on 30 % of the hives, never had hives this light this early. 

late april is kind of late to inspect the bees as normal swarm season starts the 1st of may, the day you pull your wrapings you should inspect if above 55 and no wind to at least clean off the bottom board, you don't have to pull any frames.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> [My partner and I checked 150 hives the warm day. /QUOTE]
> 
> I think I missed my chance. The darn freezing weather is coming back this week. I wanted to get in there but the wind was blowing the bees 3 ft sideways the instant they left the entrance and then they headed right back for the entrance like a scared rabbit.
> 
> Thanks for the reply Mike.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Just to see what would happen, I left two hives unwrapped. They seem to be doing as good as the ones I wrapped with insulation. I run two deeps and left a medium full of honey. I know its not very scientific but it seems to me as long as they have plenty of food and are vented good, healthy, queenright, etc.......they will make it. When I see photos of cutouts they could be in any type of building or tree with varying insulation. But winter isnt over yet for me and I may have just shot myself in the foot !!! One of the hives I left unwrapped was a swarm I caught early last spring, maybe that has something to do with it. Who knows ?? They will continue to confuse me.


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## Peter (Mar 28, 2009)

Grid

Am I undertstanding this correctly from the QC doc? (1/2l of vinegar per 10 kg of sugar against nosema)

They are saying to add 1/2 litre (just over 1 pint) of vinegar in addition to the water (approx 7 quarts) to 22lb sugar to make a 2:1 syrup mix ??
Sound like an awful lot of vinegar, maybe my math is wrong.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Just to see what would happen, I left two hives unwrapped. They seem to be doing as good as the ones I wrapped with insulation. I run two deeps and left a medium full of honey. I know its not very scientific but it seems to me as long as they have plenty of food and are vented good, healthy, queenright, etc.......they will make it.


I've read all kinds of unproven theories. An over abundance of honey doesn't always pan out. In very cold weather bees head right for the top cover and then can't get to the honey below. Leaving a super on top of two deeps results in an increase in volume of the hive to heat. Knocking the hive down to just two deeps max in the fall forces the hive to decrease the population so it doesn't consume so much in the winter. Obviously location will make a huge difference on how successful these theories are but in my neck of the woods two deeps / three mediums is the norm for overwintering.

It is great to see so many members on this site in Upstate NY.

BTW I don't really have a wrap on my hive. It is three sheets of heavy roofing material hung on the sides of the hive leaving the front uncovered.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Acebird said:


> I've read all kinds of unproven theories. An over abundance of honey doesn't always pan out. In very cold weather bees head right for the top cover and then can't get to the honey below. Leaving a super on top of two deeps results in an increase in volume of the hive to heat. Knocking the hive down to just two deeps max in the fall forces the hive to decrease the population so it doesn't consume so much in the winter.
> 
> Okay, so bees are able to heat the area of 2 deeps and not 2 deeps and 1 medium. I must have gotten lucky then this year, because I thought bees heated the cluster not the entire area of the hive. So next year I will leave them less stores so they can heat a smaller area.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> because I thought bees heated the cluster not the entire area of the hive.


That is actually what I believe too. But I have read a lot of discussions where more space is not good in cold regions. I am a newbee, lets not forget that. What I have read is two deeps is enough room to store plenty of stores to make it through the winter in Upstate NY. If the deeps are not full then maybe they should be. Did I know if my deeps were full this winter? No. All I know is they were darn heavy.


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## SSmithers (Jul 2, 2009)

I pack my extra super with newspaper to insulate and absorb moisture. On a warmish day when I peep in they're all up there eating the sugarpatties and dry sugar I leave up there . Even if I take off outer wrapping I leave paper in 'attic' until nights are warm. Second year, no losses.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

MJC417 said:


> Okay, so bees are able to heat the area of 2 deeps and not 2 deeps and 1 medium. I must have gotten lucky then this year, because I thought bees heated the cluster not the entire area of the hive. So next year I will leave them less stores so they can heat a smaller area.


I'd gather more opinions before making that decision. A box of honey-filled comb is not just all extra space needing to be heated. The capped cells are reducing that volume, the honey is providing extra food insurance and the extra comb is available early during the spring buld-up. 

I'm in Western Maine and it has been known to get cold here but I haven't seen the behavior described in which a cluster heads straight for the top cover when the cold sets in. In fact, I have a colony of Russians in a 3 medium hive that I thought was dead when I took a very quick peek inside in February and found no activity. This past week they miraculously came back to life though, more likely, they had just been too far down in the lower boxes for me to see since it was too cold to root around the frames last month.

There are a number of northern beekeepers wintering in more equipment than two deeps. Mike Palmer's brood boxes are two deeps and a medium. If heating the volume was a concern, he would have been in big trouble with his many hundreds of hives. 

I don't believe in weakening a hive in the fall to conserve stores. I'd prefer the hive to decide on what it's optimum wintering needs are by giving them adequate space to build their population and honey stores as needed. 

I do notice that my Russian and Carniolan hives seem to require less of both winter population and honey than the Italian mutts I've had so perhaps it is best to determine wintering accomodations based on the needs of the bees.

Wayne


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## swamprat (Jan 5, 2009)

the bees dont heat the intire hive the heat the cluster.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> so perhaps it is best to determine wintering accomodations based on the needs of the bees.


You have just sited differences between bee species so how does a newbee determine wintering accommodations based on needs? I know some like to talk to their bees but I have yet to understand their language.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Acebird said:


> You have just sited differences between bee species so how does a newbee determine wintering accommodations based on needs?


You can only observe them and hope they know what they are doing. I got my first carniolans this past year and two of them only filled a deep and a medium. They wintered well so maybe they were telling me that that was all they needed. 

It was a mild winter here in Maine, though, so I don't think that will become my typical Carni configuration. (Just because they tell you something, it doesn't mean you have to believe them. They can be tricksters at times. You never can tell with bees.)

Wayne


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> You can only observe them and hope they know what they are doing


LOL I can only observe them and hope that I know what they are doing. I am sure they know what they are doing.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> I know some like to talk to their bees but I have yet to understand their language.


after a while you would be amazed at what they tell you. the best way to figure out what they need for winter is leave more than you think that they could possible need, at the end of the winter see how much they used, and how bad the winter was, then throw in the variables, young old,queen, mites,
and you don't know if the next winter will be worse or not.inch:

really isn't any easy way. I was taught in Mass. middle of feb. clean the bottom board, and check for stores. bees needed 3 deep frames to make it until the nectar flow(about 30 lbs). In n.y its march 21st, i've poped the tops but not cleaned the bottom boards yet, have droped deeps and mediums from dead outs onto 2 deep and 3 deep hives, and moved frames of honey from heavy hives to light hives, but nothing that keeps them open for any length of time, and I would guess if they have 3 frames of honey now they will make it until the first flow. then again last year I had a whole apiary that I came close to pulling the supers and feeding in June and last year was a fine year for honey. get some one near you to show you the ropes, listen to them but use your own judgment, there are always better ways.

the best configuration that I have found up here is either 2deeps and a med, or 3 deeps with italian bees. don't have any of the rest. If they come out of winter with plenty of stores and a young queen you will see gangbuster hives starting pretty quick. I have one yard that I have to wrap, they were flying yesterday, while none of my other yards were doing anything.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> I was taught in Mass. middle of feb. clean the bottom board, and check for stores.


You are now in Syracuse? Could you even see your bottom board this year in the middle of February? I was getting dizzy plowing snow. Yesterday I scooped out some dead bees from the bottom board and found this bug that someone told me was a bumble bee. I also took a tug on the boxes and they seem pretty heavy to me. Bees were happy chewing away on the cappings that I have been putting on top of the inner cover but based on the weight of the hive I don't think I need to feed. Last year the bees made it to the end of February and then died. It looked like they barely touch the honey in the top deep. We harvested some of it and use the drawn comb for our second try. Things went way faster on the second hive.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee Hive/BeesFeb14-11003.jpg


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> You are now in Syracuse? Could you even see your bottom board this year in the middle of February?


yes around syracuse, I can see it from my house but never visit. Up here I moved all the dates a month ahead, so up here I would try it around March 15, never been successful at openeing the hives yet on that date. Just this weekend put away the toboggon and snow shoes, I can now walk in to all my yards, figure mud season will end about june. MY buddy was prunning his apple trees, told me he had all kinds of deer damage ate all the buds. I said couldn't bee deer the snow was too deep for them to get into his yard. I was pruning mine yesterday, looked up in the tree above my head, I was 6 ft tall in my younger days, and all the buds were gone, I figured out it was rabbits walking on top of the snow!!! gota love it


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

We live within the city limits and usually have herds of deer in the back because of the creek that runs through. They tend to wipe out our small pines that we planted. We didn't see any this year and I think the deep snow protected the pines that are trying to make a come back.

I don't think you will find too many similarities between anywhere in Mass as compared to Syracuse. You may have to do some unlearning.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

other than having to wait longer to do spring management, and having to put on more supers(get a lot more honey) I don't do a thing different here than I did in Mass. oh yea I had to try over wintering nucs in two deeps instead of a single deep. oh yea you can top super here I had to bottom super in Mass.
but I'm sure thats it, I think.


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