# "Keyboard Beekeepers" ?



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> Am I the only one who has noticed the keyboard beekeepers?


no. there are lots and lots of them.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

LOL...ShinBone, very very well said, I could not have said it any better, Job well done.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Somebody finally had the "chutzpah" to post! Way to go SB....


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

If they dont spell very well they are probably good beekeepers. If they post lots of links or tend to get really "long winded" then they are probably not too experienced.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Read something before that basically said "go out and conquer the world when your young and know everything" when you get older your no longer as smart..... I am thinking the same goes with beekeeping I know it has with me. 
The other thing that seems to be evolving with me anyway is the ability to type discussions and get your real meaning and thoughts across. Without the facial expressions its hard to tell a question from a declaration.


----------



## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Did ol Shinbone meet Ace?!?!?


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

gmcharlie said:


> Read something before that basically said "go out and conquer the world when your young and know everything"


It amazed me how smart my parents became after I turned 20! 

You're right, GMC. Sometimes it is tough to express yourself w/o facial & arm expressions. I guess that's why the "art" of writing a letter is going (gone) by the wayside. Now everything is an abbreviated text message.


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I'm on a couple related and unrelated sites. These keyboard experts exist everywhere. You've got the hot and heavy that burn out or get kicked off that show up on other sites. Then you've got the others that's merely want appear more than they are to appear relevant. They can be the same on occasion (depending on their mood or if they've had their meds).

How to tell? For me it's how new you are to the site and how many posts you've already got. If you've got over 6,000 posts and you're around 2 years on the site you may be a lonely keyboard beekeeper. It's a sliding scale of severity but it's a reasonable guide. If they contradict themselves in different posts it's a dead give away. They normally have a few hives and they want to save the beekeeping world with their "knowledge." I feel sorry for the newbee's who fall under their respective spells.


----------



## Pops (Nov 29, 2013)

I hope I haven't came across as one LOL. Just trying to learn. I do post with my opinion of how I see something but it is just that my view. And if it is wrong that is why I post it so someone can say no come look from this angle LOL. I am picking up a couple hives and a bee suite Friday. Can't wait til spring! Hopefully I can be a beekeeper by next fall we will see though


----------



## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Beekeeping is a lot of work. Too many posts per day is a sign of work not getting done. One can tell when busy season hits. Certain folks posting rate slow way down.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

D Coates said:


> If they contradict themselves in different posts it's a dead give away. They normally have a few hives and they want to save the beekeeping world with their "knowledge."


D Coates, very well said, I find this alot lately, as soon as the TRUTH starts to pop up and show it's head the key board jockeys seem to move on.


Hold on... did I spell everything right here.lol


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Shinebone has broken the code here. Should be a 'sticky' to warn newcomers......but our community is a really just a microcosm of life. FWIW, I have noticed plenty of low count posters who are very competent, long time members. Please, slap my keyboard-hands when I qualify as an offender. 

P.S. There could be some of this subversion going on as well. Note technique five and some of the 25 points.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I think David was working towards a solution to this problem in: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291058-Fuller-Disclosure 

I believe that this is just part of the internet experience (for better or worse), and is certainly not limited to beekeeping, as it will be found in every internet forum out there. You run into these kinds in every walk of life - from the hallways at work to the auto parts store. However, I do agree that its takes restraint to read some of this and stand by, but the truly rabid ones will argue to their last breath, so I find that there's little point in engaging. However, looking on the positive, we're all individuals and assimilate information uniquely and have the ability to communicate this information uniquely. I have found some value in just letting it "scroll by" and grabbing a rare nugget when they are lofted up. 

The cumulative sum of knowledge (real and textbook) contained and freely shared is amazing. I know that I have learned much from the many generous contributors. Thank goodness for Beesource!!


----------



## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Well put shinbone, I think what would help too is if "your more than a hundred miles away from the op, temper your wisdom", you don't know how many times I thought that!


----------



## wildflowerlanehoney (Aug 17, 2010)

AMEN! Well put. There are times were I dont even want to post a question or an idea because of all the unwanted and unhelpful "expert" opinions.


----------



## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

I'm a keyboard b-keeper and treatment free too. I type and print pages of "BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB" all day long.

Have a 0% failure rate to boot!

In all seriousness though I think you get a lot of new folks that have read a book or two and done some google searches and are too excited to contain themselves so they post their new-found "wisdom". Seem to see this most often w/ the first year treatment free warre/top bar folks. I know because I was one of them not too long ago but quickly diversified to langs and MAQS for obvious reasons.


----------



## BeeGora (Oct 22, 2013)

After reading all the posts on this thread I can honestly say that I haven't learned a thing about beekeeping.


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

I got really no right to complain about keyboard beekeepers at this moment (see my sig). I'm using BeeSource to get my fixes until I once again have a box (or ten) of bugs to dote over.

I've seen all kind of beeks here with all kinds of ideas, but I haven't noticed any exceptionally loopy types here yet. Or perhaps I'm just not reading the right threads. I have run into a couple of said loopy types in another forum I post at, which is not a beekeeping forum (so not a lot of beekeepers around to challenge them I suppose).


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

BeeGora said:


> After reading all the posts on this thread I can honestly say that I haven't learned a thing about beekeeping.


I'm guessing that teaching was not the purpose of this thread. Most likely, venting.


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

If anyone is unclear about what is being discussed here, start a new thread titled, "Food Grade Mineral Oil"
:lookout:


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

snl said:


> "chutzpah"


Isn't that funny. I was thinking about that word earlier today myself and wondered how to spell it correctly. Apparently "Spell Check" agrees w/ you.

Strangely enough there doesn't seem to be a "NKBA". Wonder why that is?

I think that what you are seeing is the effect of mostly young folk, adept at internet communication and newly interested in beekeeping. So, they read a lot from the internet, know everything because they have been reading about beekeeping for two years, and are comfortable w/ e-communication.

Do you suppose this same thing happened when printed books first came into existence?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> If they dont spell very well they are probably good beekeepers. If they post lots of links or tend to get really "long winded" then they are probably not too experienced.


Like that won.


----------



## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

I think the key thing to look for is the difference between people saying "This is what I would do" and "This is what you should do".


----------



## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> ...I think that what you are seeing is the effect of mostly young folk, adept at internet communication and newly interested in beekeeping. So, they read a lot from the internet, know everything because they have been reading about beekeeping for two years, and are comfortable w/ e-communication....


I don't know, I see the same thing happen at our local beekeeping organization meetings from all ages, but typically dominated by a few older more outspoken beekeepers. Younger beekeepers tend to get squashed, and any interest in new ideas is quickly rewarded with a @!^*#-slap-of-a-prompt to get back in their place and follow those who simply have more experience.

It seems difficult for any club, organization or forum to find that good middle-ground. 

On the flip side, the Facebook groups seem to be the worst though, and I'd almost (I mean really really almost) go with the Original-Poster's opinion toward those inputs.


----------



## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

TLDR, but I think you might be onto something.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JClark said:


> I think you get a lot of new folks that have read a book or two and done some google searches and are too excited to contain themselves so they post their new-found "wisdom". Seem to see this most often w/ the first year treatment free warre/top bar folks.


Constantly berating the oldtimers. Calling them closed minded, set in their ways….not open to ‘new’ ideas. And a year or sometimes two years later….they’re gone.


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

There is a bit of amusing irony in watching someone try to promote the One and Only True Way of Doing It Right and then describe people who don't believe them as "closed-minded".


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeGora said:


> After reading all the posts on this thread I can honestly say that I haven't learned a thing about beekeeping.


Yup, and it is still under "bee forum". Maybe they are frustrated preachers pointing the finger at the congregation like they do no wrong.:no:


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Edymnion said:


> I think the key thing to look for is the difference between people saying "This is what I would do" and "This is what you should do".


Ah, a very good distinction.:thumbsup:


----------



## LSHonda310 (Mar 30, 2013)

well if somebody averaged 7.5 posts a day for almost three years, they must be an "expert" that I should listen to and go by when I am investing all my money.


----------



## ycitybz (Jan 2, 2012)

We saw it on the internet.. That makes it true, right????:ws:


----------



## LSHonda310 (Mar 30, 2013)

ycitybz said:


> We saw it on the internet.. That makes it true, right????:ws:


you can't put it on the internet if it ain't true


----------



## imthedude (Jan 28, 2013)

have noticed it here quite a bit actually, but i must say that this is not restricted to beekeepers.


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

LSHonda310 said:


> well if somebody averaged 7.5 posts a day for almost three years, they must be an "expert" that I should listen to and go by when I am investing all my money.


LSHonda310,

7.5 posts per day - Check!
Around about 2 years - Check!
Has only a few hives - Check!
Contradicts themselves - Check!
Going to save the world with his beekeeping "knowledge" - Check

Congratulations, it appears you've spotted a keyboard beekeeper.


----------



## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

I've been somewhat surprised that it is not worse than it is. There has always been a lot of misinformation about beekeeping and if anything the internet has actually helped although the bee journals generally provide more reliable information. It is important to remember that anecdotes are just anecdotes. Listen to the folks who have kept their bees alive and have consistently produced honey (if keeping bees alive and making honey is your goal) and take everyone else's opinion with a grain of salt.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Very well written Shinbone! 

I shared my thoughts on the subject of "keyboard beekeepers" almost four years ago... 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?237007-A-Keyboard-and-a-Smoker&p=493497#post493497


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

dug_6238 said:


> I don't know, I see the same thing happen at our local beekeeping organization meetings from all ages, but typically dominated by a few older more outspoken beekeepers. Younger beekeepers tend to get squashed, and any interest in new ideas is quickly rewarded with a @!^*#-slap-of-a-prompt to get back in their place and follow those who simply have more experience.


Not taking what you wrote personally, but, would you rather the old timers simply sit in the back, chuckle amongst themselves, shaking their heads in rememberence of times past and things we've already been through?

heh,heh


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BeeGora said:


> After reading all the posts on this thread I can honestly say that I haven't learned a thing about beekeeping.


But did you learn something about beekeepers?


----------



## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

This is the internet. I look at post as if they where written by someone I don't know that has access to a computor, a search engine, could easily make-up a profile, and may never have opened a hive. It's just a place help you think though a problem,make contacts and be entertained.

I consider ideas from everyone whether I think they are experienced or not.
I'm not interested is assessing the value of your information based on your representation of yourself as a beekeeper. Serious decisions aren't made from a quick read on the internet.


Truth is I'm going to do what I want anyways!


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mbeck said:


> Truth is I'm going to do what I want anyways!


Did you learn that from the experienced beekeeper who rarely posts or the one without experience that always posts?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> Truth is I'm going to do what I want anyways!


Back in the dark ages of beekeeping, in the years BC (Before Computers) I had a small handful of older, more experienced beekeepers who I would ask questions of. One of which would get pissed at me when I wouldn't do what he suggested. I always told him his advice was good, that I did listen, but then I had to do what fit the way I did everything else. I had to make up my own mind, w/ all of the advice given me, and do what I thought was best. And then learn from what didn't work. I'm still doing that.

I do say that this is what someone should do, but mostly, I hope anyways, I say that this is what I did and this is what worked or didn't. I also often say, after saying what I said in the previous sentence, only to be met w/ insistance, "Go ahead."


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Back in the dark ages of beekeeping, in the years BC (Before Computers) I had a small handful of older, more experienced beekeepers who I would ask questions of. One of which would get pissed at me when I wouldn't do what he suggested. I always told him his advice was good, that I did listen, but then I had to do what fit the way I did everything else. I had to make up my own mind, w/ all of the advice given me, and do what I thought was best. And then learn from what didn't work. I'm still doing that.


 now the tables have turned and it makes your head hurt.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Sometimes I watch a thread unfold for a few days before posting my thoughts. This was one of those threads.

Not sure how to start this thread any other way but to say, I'm a little ashamed of you guys. 

I get it. And I understand there are a LOT of people who post when they really shouldn't. Some of those posts, when poor advise is given, can be _extremely_ harmful to new beekeepers who may waste $$ and their whole season by doing something that has been suggested, but was in error.

Those that have read this thread, probably now realize their advise when given,no matter what the intent (And it is always 'just trying to help') may be harmful or annoying, will probably get the message. Although it could have been mentioned in a much nicer way.

There are people everywhere in this world, who's every thought comes out their mouth. Apparently, it also comes out their fingers too when given the opportunity to join in these public forums. They are however, interested in Beekeeping and are very welcome here on Beesource. Learning to post on a public forum can be a painful experience. Most quickly recognize the scrutiny their posts will attract and learn to ether modify what they say or get a thick skin...Some post just for the pleasure of stirring the pot. I'm sure a few beesource members come to mind.

Beekeeping has a really interesting quality to it. It makes people a little crazy with enthusiasm. And how better to get your 'fix' in the winter months than surfing Beesource. It is almost thrilling to get to join in the conversation for beginners.

This is one of the reasons I am a moderator. I mentioned to Barry the general beekeeping forum was getting kind of boring..too many newbie posts. My job is to, not only monitor ya'll, but keep the general forum a little more interesting and on the experienced level, and new basic questions in the Beekeeping 101 forum.
I will occasionally leave a basic question here if I feel even beekeepers with experience will benefit from the reply's. 

Just to let you know, the description you gave in the OP describes ME about perfectly.

I've only had bees since 2011 with no mentor, no club, no guide except Beesource and Michael Bushes site. I have, however been extremely careful not to give advise, but to simply show what I have done, good or bad, with the photos to go with it so you can see. I ALWAYS advocate _*thinking for yourself *_with emphasis on local climate conditions.
But I have posted. A LOT.

I see many comments from the commercial guys, while extremely experienced on their end, do not really fit the hobbyists situation. 
I am still new enough to REMEMBER the challenges of beginning, yet have some experience behind me. I relate to the hobbyiest, yet have enough hives to relate to the challenges of the commercials. I sometimes try to be the 'Middle Man' to help those in need apply techniques that will work for their situation. But perhaps I shouldn't, since I have not been beekeeping my entire life. This thread makes me reconsider what I felt was my contribution to help others as they have helped me. Perhaps I am not qualified.



YOU were a beginner at one time too. 

Sorry to get my hackles up, but this thread rubbed me the wrong way.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The OP is not about beginners asking for advice its about beginners giving advice. We can all relate to beginners because we all make mistakes. If I have ever put down a beginner here asking a question let me be the first to apologize.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Me thinks I'm going back to the commercial thread. Jimmy would you please lighten up.  

P.S. Have the most respect for Jimmy as a person & commercial Keeper, when he speaks most should listen.


----------



## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I think Lborou is correct when he says that this forum is a microcosm of our world. Once when our family moved to a new town, I asked one of the locals what kind of folks lived there. He answered my question with some questions: Did you have some soreheads where you lived, did you have some liars and thieves, did you have ……………… When I answered yes, he said, "well, we have those folks here also." We have all those folks on this forum also.

Even when I go to a medical doctor I question his/her diagnosis. It's the grain of salt thing. I like this forum and sometimes go long periods of time without posting, but I read this forum on almost a daily basis. I like it, and accept that it is not perfect.


----------



## CLICKBANGBANG (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm a newb and post it in my sig to distinguish as such. 

I've seen some that talk like they are running a 2k hive operation, to later find that they have... two hives... That they (nearly) re-buy bees every year. 

I've learned to use the "ignore" function on this forum. The yogurt can get deep with out it. The Interweb is serious business. But I have no dog in this fight. I'm just looking for proven information to possibly incorporate. 

There are many many good guys here that are willing to share their (successful) experiences on beekeeping. I really enjoy following and learning behind these them and am hoping that some of their luck will rub off on me.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> I'm a little ashamed of you guys.





> So let's all get off the high horse here, please.


Really?
It's not the 'poor advice' that is the problem, it's the ridiculous advice. You know those posts where you shake your head and say, what? Is this person making this stuff up? There are no dumb questions in my view, it's some of the ridiculous answers that cause the problem for many seeking advice, and for others who read them.

If commenting on the vast amount of misinformation and ridiculous advice that is so prevalent in beekeeping these days is being on a high horse, I'd rather have those riding high continue pointing out advice that is made up, ridiculous and just plain incorrect. It's a terrific way to separate the useful from the simply outrageous.

JMO


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> now the tables have turned and it makes your head hurt.


No, you missed my point.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Lauri,
Since your first experiences as a newcomer on Beesource are relatively recent and hopefully fresh in you mind....I'd ask....did you ever feel unwelcome when you asked questions or expressed opinions and offered ideas? 
I'd like to think that most newcomers are welcomed, their questions answered and their opinions heard. 
I don't believe that you or that majority of newcomers are who this thread addresses.
Just my opinion.


----------



## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I think the real issue is with the fanatical believer, not the over enthusiastic newb (myself included). It is one size fits all, my way or the highway philosophy coming from what ever experience level. There are many paths to take, and one can be just as valuable as another. We all want the same destination, but if someone chooses another route than ours it does not mean one is wrong. Although some roads are bumpier.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Lauri said:


> And yes, even my smallest nuc is still alive and well after that cold weather.


 Lauri, how cold was it? Tonight we'll have -20 wind chill. You shouldn't have any problems keeping bees alive in your cold.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Lauri said:


> Sometimes I watch a thread unfold for a few days before posting my thoughts. This was one of those threads.


Will I get in trouble if I point out that this was started at 9 this morning


----------



## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Umm...yes...yes you will


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

beemandan said:


> Lauri,
> Since your first experiences as a newcomer on Beesource are relatively recent and hopefully fresh in you mind....I'd ask....did you ever feel unwelcome when you asked questions or expressed opinions and offered ideas?


My very first post, I made the mistake of voicing my opinion about Monsanto and GMO's. About the two most controversial things here on Beesource.

I was *Crucified*.


'Will I get in trouble if I point out that this was started at 9 this morning' 

LOL, now THAT'S funny. I guess it just seemed like a couple days.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Lauri said:


> Just to let you know, the description you gave in the OP describes ME about perfectly.


Lauri - You have great posts, and no one with 130 hives could be considered a keyboard beekeeper.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Barry said:


> Lauri, how cold was it? Tonight we'll have -20 wind chill. You shouldn't have any problems keeping bees alive in your cold.


We got close to that here as well a few times last week. The nuc I mentioned is 4 -half sized deep frames in a mini mating nuc I am trying to overwinter. Clustered and healthy all around that sugar block I gave them last month.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Lauri said:


> My very first post, I made the mistake of voicing my opinion about Monsanto and GMO's. About the two most controversial things here on Beesource.
> 
> I was *Crucified*.


Now...you know that isn't what this is about. But if I must rephrase it....did you ever feel unwelcome when you asked questions or expressed opinions and offered ideas about beekeeping?


----------



## Moon (May 7, 2011)

No idea whether or not you're still following this post or not Shinbone but this is directed more towards you then the masses. I too got frustrated with the _keyboard beekeepers_ when I first started beekeeping and coming here (those long 3.5 years ago; yeah I'm still a novice). It got to the point where I quit posting and instead started combing through the archives. Every question that gets asked on these forums on a daily basis has been asked before and more often then not answered by some of the more reputable beekeepers who command a lot of respect from the beekeeping community as a whole, online and offline. The beesource community has a lot of really phenomenal people and a lot of really learned beekeepers who post here. The archives are full of in depth answers and discussions that don't require any more input from the reader or those who originally contributed to the post. There are a few beesource members who I have personally discerned as exceptionally knowledgeable and I tend to do a little online stalking of their activities and posts, mostly because I find what these members have to say as valuable and worth reading; however, these are my own opinions and people who I have decided on my own as having something important to say. That is not to say they should be viewed by everyone as an authority on beekeeping.

When I first started keeping bees the fellow who I bought my packages from was more than willing to help me with questions or concerns I had about getting the packages installed and going. He came from a family of beekeepers and had worked as a beekeeper most of his life. He had studied several different areas of beekeeping in different areas around the world, so I would consider him extremely knowledgeable. As I continued to learn about beekeeping and got past the basics of what a worker was, a drone was, and a queen was my questions began to become more specific when talking to him. Every time he would get more and more vague until he would just simply say, "I don't know how you should do that." This frustrated me to no end until one day I asked him why he was unwilling to help. He responded by saying beekeeping is something that is done on an individual level. How he keeps bees and how I keep bees will never be the same. We might have different goals in mind, different approaches, or different methods all together. That really struck a cord with me and rather than asking how everyone else did something or 'why was this problem happening how do I fix it?' I realized I needed to solve these problems on my own. In my mind part of becoming a good beekeeper is being able to learn from my own observations and solve problems without running to the keyboard and asking what everyone else would do.

Just my own two cents on the issue.

As an after thought, the sub forums you visit really dictate the experience of the site as well.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I have to say it took me about a year to figure out the 'forum format'

Beesource helped me a lot, but there _were_ times I considered never coming back, or at least never posting again. 

Getting caught up in the Russell thread was a nightmare. Part of my forum education tho..don't get too wound up in inflammatory posts from others. Ya, I'd have to say I felt unwelcome at times. I worked through it. 

I am a little 'sad' when the 'little guy' is at times, just an annoyance to the 'big guys' on the forum. I am sorry they can't treat there fellow man with a little more respect. No matter how inexperienced or how many hives he does or doesn't have. It doesn't happen ALL the time, but it happens enough to turn people off. Pretty typical..the small few on both ends of the spectrum. 

Sure, There are some here that have may have low IQ's or mental problems, need to get on or off the meds, I'm not really sure. But it is a PUBLIC forum, and will attract all kinds. You have to admit, those posts generate a LOT of replies and views. My mouth has dropped open many times and I have laughed out loud, even though the content is ridiculous.

Barry thought having new 'Experienced general forum' would not be a good idea, just moderate the general a little better. Perhaps he will rethink this issue, since it has been brought up here. I personally think it would be a great idea. I agree the _repeat_ beginner questions make the forum boring to those looking for more experienced topics and input.
I read the commercial forum all the time, but have only posted in it twice. Once about Back pain and another about hive bodies. I don't post otherwise because I am not qualified.


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

From the OP:

Still others may be born of multi-generation beekeeping families and simply have decades of beekeeping experience transmitted through their genes making them master-beekeepers at birth

I guess I may be guilty as charged. We have been commercial beekeepers in this country since 1852. 

Things sure look different from that perspective. I feel like one of those old men SQKCRK spoke of, snickering in the back of the room. There have been "flash in the pans" for many years, and will be for many more. The key is to comprehend that you can not help some one that does not want help. 

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Moon - Thanks for the info.


----------



## imthegrumpyone (Jun 29, 2013)

Hmmmm ! to many "New Bee" post, :scratch: well we'll just leave you experts to yourselves, from a lot that I've read sense last summer on this forum, I've learned some things but also have seen a lot of uncalled for sarcastic post to people that were just trying to get honest answers to there questions. I'll find another site, you aren't the only word on beekeeping. To the rest of you knowledgeable and humble "Bee Keeps" keep up the good work, hope all your bees winter, your honey over flows and have a Merry Christmas, it's been nice.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If a person will consume Threads for a while, how long I don't know, one should be able to figure out who to follow and who to dismiss. I'm sure there are plenty of people on beesource who feel both ways about my Posts, at times at least.

I feel I understand shinbones position in the OP. I shake my head from time to time. And beat my head against the wall sometimes. But, is it so differently wherever people congregate and exchange views?

No matter who we are or where we are on our path, I keep reminding myself, we are all doing the best we can.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

imthegrumpyone said:


> Hmmmm ! to many "New Bee" post, :scratch: well we'll just leave you experts to yourselves, from a lot that I've read sense last summer on this forum, I've learned some things but also have seen a lot of uncalled for sarcastic post to people that were just trying to get honest answers to there questions. I'll find another site, you aren't the only word on beekeeping. To the rest of you knowledgeable and humble "Bee Keeps" keep up the good work, hope all your bees winter, your honey over flows and have a Merry Christmas, it's been nice.


Uh, beemaster.com, beekeepingforums.com, organicbeekeepers.com, and bee-L where every single Post is reviewed before it is Posted. Enjoy beesource. You don't know how good things are.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Did someone actually start a thread on an online beekeeping forum, complaining about keyboard beekeepers?

Unless your name is Langstroth, who do you think you are?


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

WLC said:


> Did someone actually start a thread on an online beekeeping forum, complaining about keyboard beekeepers?
> 
> Unless your name is Langstroth, who do you think you are?


I am A.I. Root's wife's uncle's great-great-grand-cousin, three times removed!

(You guys believe me, right?)


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Lauri said:


> I am a little 'sad' when the 'little guy' is at times, just an annoyance to the 'big guys' on the forum. I am sorry they can't treat there fellow man with a little more respect. No matter how inexperienced or how many hives he does or doesn't have.


Again I will say that I hope I am not being painted with that brush, start digging through my posting history if you wish, my main offense you will find is too many stupid jokes. I will plead guilty to posting a few things in my first years here that I wish I hadnt but my philosophy has always been never to say something on here that I wouldnt say if I met them face to face and I NEVER belittle a newcomer looking for information but it does get a bit frustrating to see someone dishing out advice in the same thread based on what I know to be a very limited base of experience. There is still a lot of stuff in this business that I know little about (I wasnt even going to hazard a guess when Ian asked today about humidity levels in an indoor wintering facility and that was on the commercial forum) but the things I do choose speak up about are things that I am pretty sure of based on past experience. I often relate those experiences, if that offends someone, then so be it. I have chosen not to put my level of experience in my signature because I felt it a bit audacious to do so, bigger is not necessarily better, but given the confusion felt by folks like Shinbone who started this thread perhaps I should reconsider. I do, however, give a bit of background on my profile if anyone chooses to check. BTW Lauri your answer about this post just seeming like it had been around for a few days was perfect. . 
Lauri, I think you do a great job, you obviously have a great aptitude and passion for bees, Im pretty sure the OP wasnt directed at you. Just keep in my mind that commercials are, for the most part, folks that have chosen beekeeping as their lifes work. They are in fact professionals, who make their livings doing this. Maybe they dont always say it in just the right way but their opinions should carry a certain amount of weight.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

What's really fascinating is that the 'non-professionals' have to spend an awful amount of time trying to undo the current state of beekeeping that has been created by the life long work of the 'professionals'.

All anyone really wants are 'honey machines'. Bees go in the bottom box, and you take the honey out of the top box.


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Randy Oliver wrote a killer article a few years back in which he identified the "Beekeeping Taliban".
He said that there is one of these in every beekeeping circle.
1) They are the LOUDEST!
2) They forcefully extoll the virtues of:
-A certain hive configuration,
-Mite Treatment,
-Lack of treatment,
- Queen lineage,
-Etc......

3) Minimal experience

AND, If any one around them does not dutifully agree wholehartedly, they are marginalized.
I see this all the time.
And when it occours on a message board, THATS a keyboard beekeeper IMO.

:digging:


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

> What's really fascinating is that the 'non-professionals' have to spend an awful amount of time trying to undo the current state of beekeeping that has been created by the life long work of the 'professionals'.


Good luck w/ that.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

This thread is on track to have #2000 hits it's first day. Way to go Shinbone.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

My reference to commercials not understanding or taking into consideration the hobbyist's point of view was not to belittle the experienced Commercial guys. 
Here's an example: 
Michael Palmer posted in a thread I wrote about hatching out queens. He said he would never do it, it was a waste do time. I do mine in an incubator and love it. With his volume he prefers inserting queen cells in the nucs. On my level, Hatching out queens in the incubator is what beekeeping is all about. I don't do it for a living and have time to play if I want to. Although I think it is extremly productive to mark and evaluate virgins before they are placed in mating nucs. 
Our opinions differ partly because of the difference in the scale of our yards.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Let's not lose track of the OP comment



> I am an inexperienced newbie, but I've noticed that Beesource (and maybe beekeeping in general?) seems to attract "keyboard beekeepers," who are people with little to no experience (in some cases not even a full season of beekeeping), but who nonetheless will write reams on how things really are in the beekeeping world.


of course not 'all', or even most, of those in any of the 'labeled' groups discussed in this thread can be described this way.
But some can.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

clyde:

I don't think that you need to have bees to know what's happening in the beekeeping world.

Not really.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Lauri said:


> My reference to commercials not understanding or taking into consideration the hobbyist's point of view was not to belittle the experienced Commercial guys.
> Here's an example:
> Michael Palmer posted in a thread I wrote about hatching out queens. He said he would never do it, it was a waste do time. I do mine in an incubator and love it. With his volume he prefers inserting queen cells in the nucs. On my level, Hatching out queens in the incubator is what beekeeping is all about. I don't do it for a living and have time to play if I want to. Although I think it is extremly productive to mark and evaluate virgins before they are placed in mating nucs.
> Our opinions differ partly because of the difference in the scale of our yards.


You felt belittled by that? But thats a very good example. You are aware that its an established fact that virgin acceptance decreases with age? Sure you will get by with it fine for probably most of a week but after that problems will occur. If you choose to do it, fine, thats your choice. Mikes point of view (and I agree) is what is there to gain by it? Why would I want to risk problems when I know my success rate using cells. What are you going to see that is going to help you determine whether that queen will be a good one or not? 
Why get offended? I guess I dont get it.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Jim, why do you think I was offended? It was just an example of the difference of opinion between a commercial beekeeper and a hobbyist. I think you read my post wrong.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Lauri said:


> Jim, why do you think I was offended? It was just an example of the difference of opinion between a commercial beekeeper and a hobbyist. I think you read my post wrong.


Perhaps your right, sorry. For the record, I am interested in hearing how long you keep them and if you have seen any decrease in successful matings based on how long before they are introduced.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

offended..... that seems to be what I have had the last two sub threads, as soon as you engage in debate over a topic and the TRUTH is close at hand some folks seem just to derail the thread, I've seen this a couple times now.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Lauri said:


> I am a little 'sad' when the 'little guy' is at times, just an annoyance to the 'big guys' on the forum. I am sorry they can't treat there fellow man with a little more respect. No matter how inexperienced or how many hives he does or doesn't have. It doesn't happen ALL the time, but it happens enough to turn people off. Pretty typical..the small few on both ends of the spectrum.


Oh ya, that's totally me! If I wanted a two hiver tell me how to select for mite resistance,I'd go to the treatment free zone. 

If your going to play ball with the pro's ,expect to get a pitch throwen at your head


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)




----------



## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

Ian said:


> Oh ya, that's totally me! If I wanted a two hiver tell me how to select for mite resistance,I'd go to the treatment free zone.
> 
> If your going to play ball with the pro's ,expect to get a pitch throwen at your head


I would think that those that feel that they are "pros" have it all figured out and would not need anyone else to tell them anything....so why would a "pro" even be asking for advice here anyway?


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Why does everyone seem to think that beekeeping is about to implode then?

They don't all have bees, but I agree with them nevertheless.


----------



## LSHonda310 (Mar 30, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> Perhaps your right, sorry. For the record, I am interested in hearing how long you keep them and if you have seen any decrease in successful matings based on how long before they are introduced.


Lauri, I too am very interested in learning how you raise queens,
I think I remember that you have said that you just drop a virgin queen in a mating nuc and have no problem with acceptance. Even move a laying queen with no problem?
Can you sometime start a thread (or maybe there is one already) on how you do it?
Thanks


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Anyone who thinks that beekeeping is about to implode has no far sight ability.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Edymnion said:


> I think the key thing to look for is the difference between people saying "This is what I would do" and "This is what you should do".


That's wisdom.

I'm one of those longwinded beginners, but I recognize that I know very little, so would never say "This is what you should do."

But I don't mind explaining why I think what I'm doing is worth a try. As anyone who knows me would attest, I'm argumentative.

It's only one of my many character flaws.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Anyone who thinks that beekeeping is about to implode has no far sight ability.


Do we really have to go through all of the 'bad news' statistics to understand that?


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> Anyone who thinks that beekeeping is about to implode has no far sight ability.


Or no bees.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WLC said:


> Do we really have to go through all of the 'bad news' statistics to understand that?


Depends if it's coming from a two hiver


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Check it out Ray, theres some good sci-fi material here. 
"Beam me up Scotty" opcorn:


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"It doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing."


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Randy Oliver wrote a killer article a few years back in which he identified the "Beekeeping Taliban".
> He said that there is one of these in every beekeeping circle.
> 1) They are the LOUDEST!
> 2) They forcefully extoll the virtues of:
> ...


Hmm, maybe yes and no. Oh they're around; but I'm not sure they're necessarily the same kind of people the OP had in mind. Yes they are quite obstinate and condescending; but their problem isn't that they _don't_ know what they're talking about - often what such "taliban" types say works really does work, or _can_ work in some circumstances, which is a big part of what makes them so insufferable. Their problem is not understanding that there's more than one working way to do things.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> Check it out Ray, theres some good sci-fi material here.
> "Beam me up Scotty" opcorn:


No kidding!

I'm sure I've said this before, but one reason I really like beekeeping is that it's like having a box of tiny Martians in the backyard.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Do we really have to go through all of the 'bad news' statistics to understand that?


You don't believe everything you read, do you? I hope you have more faith than you project w/ a statement like everybody says ...


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

WLC said:


> Why does everyone seem to think that beekeeping is about to implode then?


I'm guessing it's something to do with thermodynamics, entropy, and all the hot air produced by beekeepers arguing with each other.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> "It doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing."


Then why do you have bees at all, if you are not an optomist? Go raise goldfish.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> You don't believe everything you read, do you? I hope you have more faith than you project w/ a statement like everybody says ...


Name one beekeeping statistic that's 'positive' news.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

melliferal said:


> I'm guessing it's something to do with thermodynamics, entropy, and all the hot air produced by beekeepers arguing with each other.


That's where evolution comes from.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Name one beekeeping statistic that's 'positive' news.


You have more bees than you used to. I have more this year than last.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC, your attitude reveals that you aren't a farmer, yer an academic. That's alright. Just don't tell farmers that they are practicing a lost art, that they and their way of life is doomed.


----------



## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

sqkcrk said:


> WLC, your attitude reveals that you aren't a farmer, yer an academic. That's alright. Just don't tell farmers that they are practicing a lost art, that they and their way of life is doomed.


At least not with your mouth full.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I prefer to learn from "others" mistakes. 
"And that's all I have to say about that".


----------



## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

In the past more than one GOOD beekeeper has stopped posting after being raged on by those that knew it all. Hope it doesn't keep happening.


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I prefer to learn from "others" mistakes.
> "And that's all I have to say about that".


I like that attitude; I tend to share it. People call it different things; I just call it "efficient learning".


----------



## red (Jan 15, 2013)

I hope I don't come off as a keyboard beekeeper . Do to a lack of a good education I don't always use the right words to ask a question. Also i'm still learning how to use a computer. I usually post on the comercial forum to try and get as much experianced advice or help as possible. The information comeing from the comercial people is priceless. So please bare with me, I am learning.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

melliferal==


> often what such "taliban" types say works really does work, or can work in some circumstances, which is a big part of what makes them so insufferable. Their problem is not understanding that there's more than one working way to do things.


Almost everything _can_ work in _some_ circumstances. Their problem is knowing what will work in a given circumstance. Big difference.


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

red said:


> I hope I don't come off as a keyboard beekeeper . Do to a lack of a good education I don't always use the right words to ask a question. Also i'm still learning how to use a computer. I usually post on the comercial forum to try and get as much experianced advice or help as possible. The information comeing from the comercial people is priceless. So please bare with me, I am learning.


I love reading the commercial forum. Nobody trying to make impressions, prove points, or promote agendas. "Hey guys, how/when/where do you usually do/get/put X?" "I usually do it like Y. You might also want to try/watch out for Z. Here's a photo." "Thanks, I'll do that." It's wondrous.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good thread Shinbone.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> WLC, your attitude reveals that you aren't a farmer, yer an academic. That's alright. Just don't tell farmers that they are practicing a lost art, that they and their way of life is doomed.


Let's not bring farmers into the discussion. They have their own problems.

I'd say that the most telling statistic is that commercial beekeepers are aging out. Furthermore, the overall health of our Honeybees, as well as the rising costs and shrinking margins provide a good explanation for why that's happening.

We're going to end up with a bunch of 'grandpappy' commercial beekeepers telling the rest of us how it used to be.

Frankly, I'm seeing that happening already.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Been hearing that exact thing for the last 40 years.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This'll be my last comment about this and maybe to you. 

You don't know "much" about beekeeping. Websearch Blake Shook. Don't try to convince westernbeekeeper of your flawed philosophy.

Tell me when beekeeping and farming weren't dominated by grey hairs. No, don't bother I won't read it.

If you don't see what I do and what other commercial beekeepers do as farming, then you really don't know "much" about beekeeping or farming.

Good day Sir.


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

With the advent of the internet, there are "keyboard everything". This...... is a good thing. 
Experience level is not what you see though the keyboards, it's their personality.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim Ives is another young ish one, I'll bet there are many.

Capitalist theory, it should be self regulating. Let's say no young blood came in cos you work too hard for the money. Next thing, nobody can get crops pollinated and rates go up. They go up, till people will go into the business. That's capitalism and the system works long as politicians do not mess with it.


----------



## Melliferaologist (Nov 23, 2013)

Thank you! Lauri
I was very close to walking away from this forum!


----------



## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> If you don't see what I do and what other commercial beekeepers do as farming, then you really don't know "much" about beekeeping or farming.


 Amen. Anything and everything related to caring for, raising animals/plants for the purpose of harvesting is farming right down to the logger in the woods and the Maple Syrup folks tapping trees along with us beekeepers, row croppers, pig farmers and lets not forget about the worm/nightcrawler farmers.


----------



## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

WLC said:


> I'd say that the most telling statistic is that commercial beekeepers are aging out. Furthermore, the overall health of our Honeybees, as well as the rising costs and shrinking margins provide a good explanation for why that's happening.
> 
> We're going to end up with a bunch of 'grandpappy' commercial beekeepers telling the rest of us how it used to be.
> 
> Frankly, I'm seeing that happening already.


So I used to hear that the average age of beekeepers in the US is 62 years old. However I am here to tell you that most of the commercial beekeepers I know are between the age of 38 and 50. Far cry from aging out as I know 24 year old beekeepers that are striving to get to the commercial level. As far as commecial beekeeping dieing out? I think not. We have exponentially grown in the past 12 months. Beekeeping like any other farming or business entity needs to be carefully managed. If people can't carefully manage a business, trim out waste and understand farming on a commercial level then maybe commercial beekeeping isnt for them. I do respect you have an opinion on it though.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC should learn Spanish if he wants to tell future beekeepers not to bother.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Lauri,
I’m not beating you up here…

You cited two different times that you felt unwelcome as a newcomer on Beesource. Once in a GMO/Monsanto thread and another time in a Robert Russell thread. Both were contentious threads. Neither had anything whatsoever to do with beekeeping.
Advice to all…new and old….if you express an opinion in a contentious thread, you can expect strong disagreement. If that contentious thread is on a nonbeekeeping, controversial subject….know that you have entered a virtual brawl.

You described an exchange with Michael Palmer. This is the absolute power of Beesource. A veritable newbie getting advice from a highly respected, experienced beekeeper. You chose not to follow his advice. Did anyone get angry?
Let’s carry that exchange one imaginary post further….suppose you followed up MP’s post by stating…._MP you don’t know what you’re talking about._ Then…you would have qualified as a keyboard beekeeper…in my opinion.


----------



## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

Mr.Beeman said:


> With the advent of the internet, there are "keyboard everything". This...... is a good thing.


Truth.

I frequent many other forums, guns are another hobby of mine.
You wanna see some interweb experts? Try out most any gun forum.
You will find more "Keyboard Commanders" & "Tier 1 Operators" than you can shake a stick at.
It's especially bad when school lets out.

This forum is tame compared to what I have witnessed on other sites.
I am thankful for that.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

rhaldridge said:


> I'm argumentative.
> 
> It's only one of my many character flaws.


You do it in a civil manner :thumbsup:


----------



## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Like Lauri, I remember the Monsanto/GMO pi_ _ ing contest. That thread caused me to cautiously think of future postings. This thread started with some happy face icons, and like many of our threads it has wandered off into somewhat more contentious places. That's OK with me, as long as we remain cordial. 

I would remind all of you that beekeeping is a dynamic process. Things like the varroa and other mites and diseases have caused beekeepers of all ages and experience levels to change their modus operandi. As we learn to deal with these things, some new problem will come along. That is life. "There is no Heaven on earth." Can we all learn from experienced, successful beekeepers? Yes, because they form the base line from which we start. Will some of the new beekeepers have some solutions to both new and old problems. Yes. I'm an old engineer, and on occasion, I have learned from rank beginners. Those of you familiar with "Total Quality Management" will understand "brain storming." In brief, we are stronger with the mixture of new ideas and old proven practices.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BMAC said:


> However I am here to tell you that most of the commercial beekeepers I know are between the age of 38 and 50.


That's what I'm talken about.... is that why nobody will listen to me.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> That's what I'm talken about.... is that why nobody will listen to me.


What? Speak a little louder Sir, I'm very hard of hearing. (insert grey beard icon here)


----------



## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> What? Speak a little louder Sir, I'm very hard of hearing. (insert grey beard icon here)











Too niche for this audience, maybe?


----------



## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Moon said:


> That really struck a cord with me and rather than asking how everyone else did something or 'why was this problem happening how do I fix it?' I realized I needed to solve these problems on my own. In my mind part of becoming a good beekeeper is being able to learn from my own observations and solve problems without running to the keyboard and asking what everyone else would do.


As a second year Beekeeper with no mentor, I can attest that this is such a true statement.

In my first year I was frustrated and afraid of making mistakes. My personal beekeeping experience changed dramatically when i realized this.
And yes, I have made plenty of mistakes... But I've learned a lot, and I have a good time.


----------



## VitaminBee (Aug 17, 2013)

lburou said:


> p.s. There could be some of this subversion going on as well.


wow.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I would much rather take information from a keyboard beekeeper than a close minded experienced beekeeper with 100 years experience and a million hives! 

A few years ago when I first joined I was scolded by an experienced commercial beek for suggesting he not do something. A few post later MB told him the same thing. He is so close minded he would not even listen to advise from a new beek even know it was good sound advice. That shows me and everyone else reading the thread he is the inexperienced beek lacking knowledge.




Mbeck said:


> I consider ideas from everyone whether I think they are experienced or not.
> I'm not interested is assessing the value of your information based on your representation of yourself as a beekeeper. Serious decisions aren't made from a quick read on the internet.


Agreed

+1 on what Lauri said too


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

WLC said:


> I'd say that the most telling statistic is that commercial beekeepers are aging out. Furthermore, the overall health of our Honeybees, as well as the rising costs and shrinking margins provide a good explanation for why that's happening.
> 
> We're going to end up with a bunch of 'grandpappy' commercial beekeepers telling the rest of us how it used to be.
> 
> Frankly, I'm seeing that happening already.


....and this just in the average age of teachers is increasing. 

http://www.gse.upenn.edu/review/feature/ingersoll

OMG! Who will teach our children in the future?


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Your welcome on Beesource is like the new guy on the crew. Most get a passing notice, a few a hard time, some for good reasons , some for bad.

Lauri, take it as a compliment, a gelding can join the herd barely noticed, a mare or a stallion; never.

then there are the black flys, you want to ignor them but you just can't.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I went to Wisc to buy some honey from some guys I met here..... 21 and 22 runnign 3000 hives in the cranberries....


----------



## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

I'm old. I'm a newbee. If I were younger I would know more than everyone here except for the real proven professionals. But since I now have a hint of senior wisdom, I sit back and shut-up. I'll post if I have a question or have something meaningful to add from my own experience. Time for me to shut-up and vanish into the background.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

gmcharlie said:


> I went to Wisc to buy some honey from some guys I met here..... 21 and 22 runnign 3000 hives in the cranberries....


Ehhhh? You need to speak up sonny!


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Wow, 130 post & 3000 hits in it first day, yahoo Shinbone. dog gone back seat drivers.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

M, Don't WLC bother ya... heys the type this post is about... NYC Academic with no real world experience, doesn't collect honey but knows more about bees and Neonics than those of us with both in the barn..... He has his good points though, generally hes at least polite, and funny...made me laugh many times Oh wait maybe I fit that discription too...... :scratch:


----------



## LSHonda310 (Mar 30, 2013)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Wow, 130 post & 3000 hits in it first day, yahoo Shinbone. dog gone back seat drivers.


bees are huddled up, winter is here, too cold to be outside, nothing else to do, wait a minute- I could be building equipment for next year, na- that can wait


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

gmcharlie said:


> NYC Academic with no real world experience,


Gmcharlie, when someone makes fun of someone that has a much higher level of education then you have it is called sour grapes. I have caught myself in this situation a couple of times and then realized how stupid I was. I value your posts but certainly someone could know far more then you do about bees without ever keeping any.


----------



## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

seems like this post has become personal attacks.......I really don't think this is productive


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> You do it in a civil manner :thumbsup:


If you do it in a civil manner then you really are not being argumentative. It is just a negative label people link to pin on someone that they can't get the upper hand on in a debate. Let's face it, if the label actually fit you would delete the post right Barry?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

shinbone said:


> Am I the only one who has noticed the keyboard beekeepers?


Nope. 

When I see a new name (or especially a new recurring name) I take a quick look at the Join Date and the Posts. That generally tells me what I need to know.


----------



## willbe (Sep 3, 2013)

Pete O said:


> I'm old. I'm a newbee. If I were younger I would know more than everyone here except for the real proven professionals. But since I now have a hint of senior wisdom, I sit back and shut-up. I'll post if I have a question or have something meaningful to add from my own experience. Time for me to shut-up and vanish into the background.


 Pete
I'm with you. I grew up with bees in central Nebraska 1959-63. Things were different then. I just read, sift and go on


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Gmcharlie, when someone makes fun of someone that has a much higher level of education then you have it is called sour grapes. I have caught myself in this situation a couple of times and then realized how stupid I was. I value your posts but certainly someone could know far more then you do about bees without ever keeping any.


I've said just that in so many words.

If you're trying to replace someone's beekeeping model with a new model that avoids the obvious pitfalls, you'll meet with resistance.

That's what this has been about.

As for being an academic, let me demonstrate:

Claims have been made that bees in the South East have been Africanized.

I've provided research demonstrating that the identification method being used is actually showing false positives (a type I error).

I'd love to see these characters figure out something like that. A new beekeeping policy in Florida is being based on bad information.


----------



## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Solomon Parker said:


> Nope.
> 
> When I see a new name (or especially a new recurring name) I take a quick look at the Join Date and the Posts. That generally tells me what I need to know.


 Except for someone like me who joined in like 2002 or do but lost that screen name (rwjedi) due to password and email trouble.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

rweakley said:


> Except for someone like me who joined in like 2002 or do but lost that screen name (rwjedi) due to password and email trouble.


It's a general rule. You know, like being on the site for two and a half years and having over seven thousand posts. Like to keep it in the under two posts per day range.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Except for someone like me who joined in like 2002 or do but lost that screen name (rwjedi) due to password and email trouble.

Are you _sure _about that screen name? :scratch:

The member list shows a _Rod Weakley _who joined in 2004 in Sullivan MO. His signature line includes the word "rwjedi". :lookout:

_Barry _may be able to merge the accounts, if you ask nicely.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Lauri said:


> This is one of the reasons I am a moderator. I mentioned to Barry the general beekeeping forum was getting kind of boring..too many newbie posts. My job is to, not only monitor ya'll, but keep the general forum a little more interesting and on the experienced level, and new basic questions in the Beekeeping 101 forum.....
> 
> I see many comments from the commercial guys, while extremely experienced on their end, do not really fit the hobbyists situation. .


Can see where you are coming from, but not sure I totally agree with it. Just what is a basic question?

Any question is important to someone, the person who asked it. And maybe other readers. 

I've had bees a while, but hardly ever used plastic foundation. But now I got customers wanting bees on plastic so having to go that way. So on our local forum, I recently had to ask some "basic" questions about plastic.

So what? Some folks might have thought hey that's a bit simple, a bit boring. So they don't have to read it. No point complaining.

Just, I know some people are scared to even post or ask a question, cos they worried what someone else may think, shouldn't be that way.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I think the commercial guys have been getting a bit of a bad rap in this thread. I strongly appreciate their inputs, even on their responses to basic newbee questions. The perspective that they bring to even basic elements of beekeeping I feel is invaluable. Sure, not all of their inputs are going to be palatable to the TF, foundationless, top bar, mineral oil spraying newbee, but they come from an environment of working bees for profit (sometimes ), which to me means a lot. Many of these guys have decades of experience working 1000s of hives - they bring a historical and practical perspective that is invaluable. Please keep posting and by all means free free to roast me when I say something stupid - stay tuned, it shouldn't take long.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

AstroBee said:


> I commercial guys ...Sure, not all of their inputs are going to be palatable to the TF, .....Please keep posting and by all means free free to roast me when I say something stupid - stay tuned, it shouldn't take long.


Hahaha fire up the barbecue


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Any basic beekeeping questions asked on any forum here on Beesource are answered with courtesy save a rare off the wall reply. However if you choose to weigh in on the more controversial issues then expect controversial answers. Its a big part of the reason Barry set up a CCD forum. In the same vein if a non commercial chooses to challenge or give advice to a commercial then, yes, don't be offended if you are challenged just be ready to state your case. But cases where newcomers have been attacked or ridiculed for asking basic questions are something pretty rare on here. Lets not forget that this thread was started by a newcomer stating frustration at being unable to seperate what advice was based on experience on what was given by someone with little beekeeping experience or "keyboard beekeepers" as he termed them.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Any basic beekeeping questions asked on any forum here on Beesource are answered with courtesy 

I think part of the problem is the medium of text is without the visual and vocal mannerisms that disarm things in face to face conversation. I've seen people get offended by replies I thought were certainly not intended to be insulting or short, just practical. I find it's best to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they did not mean anything personal unless it is obviously personal.


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

If I came across as being unappreciative of the commercial guys, I did not mean to and am sorry. I'm not sure if what I was trying to say came across well.

Here's an example of one of the points I was trying to make:

For a few years, I was raising and selling vegetable seedlings. I had a guy stop buy and wanted lettuce. I told him I didn't grow any. For the cost of a pack of veggies, you could buy a whole bag of lettuce at Costco, I told him. He looked at me and said...You're missing the point. He was right. He didn't care about saving money, he wanted to grow them himself.

The hobbyist, even if they are experienced, have a different mind set, different goals than someone who does it for a living. All I am saying is at times I see advise given that tells hobbyists not to try this or that. In my opinion, On their small scale, there is no reason to discourage it because they are not trying to maintain hundreds of colonies or make a profit.

SO many people will take the word of a more experienced beekeeper and *never* question it. 

In Michael Palmers new video, he states he feels Apple pollination exposure was bad for his bees. He had much larger losses after apple pollination. 
There was a reply from someone thanking him, because he WAS considering getting into the pollination end. Again, Michael Palmer is well respected and experienced and I am not saying to disregard advise from established beekeepers. But I hope this person will not change their plans about pollination with out checking into it for himself. One person's experience or opinion may not hold true for all.

When I started out with bees, the local 'Bee guy' That is the standard around here for advise told me to buy all migratory tops, don't bother feeding my bees in fall, it was cheaper to just buy new bees in spring and not to bother raising queens, they were more trouble than they were worth.

I'm glad I didn't listen to most of that.

All those migratory tops, well they worked great..until it started raining. I am in a very wet climate. That's what HE uses, _but think about it_. He does some pollination services, He doesn't feed his bees and lets them die off every year. He believes in his method. He dosen't NEED good tops for overwintering. It wasn't good advise for me tho, I had different ideas about preserving my stock and I don't have my hives palletized. A water proof lid is very importaint in my area, not only to overwinter bees, but keep the hives from rotting along the rim.

So no disrespect intended, but I am going to say, Experience has about as much weight as intelligence or common sense. One without the other might not be a good scenario. And even if you have experience and intelligence, your local conditions, your goals, may make your experience totally different than mine.

On my facebook page, where I post about feeding, I recently got a message from a beekeeper in Minnesota. She said: "We are having a bit of an argument on our club site...There is one beekeeper quoting Michael Bush saying bees should not be fed" .

My reply to her was: Is Michael Bush going to buy him new bees in spring if his bees starve? Will I buy him new bees if he feeds too much and they swarm? I think it is up to him to figure it out since he is the one who will have to pay for a new colony. Michael Bush is a smart guy, but there is a chance he has left out a few small details he may not even realize he does or that contribute to his 'no feed' rule or method. Perhaps he lives on a good fall flow area? He can't begin to guess what everyone's conditions will be. That is just what works for him in his area, with his strain of bees and management methods. 
I have a lot of hives in one area and some of my feeding is due to that. I also feed because I need large volumes of bees in early spring for queen rearing. 
There are no single answers in beekeeping. The only one true statement for all beekeeping questions is: It Depends.

She also said her mentor calls people that don't do what he says, "Askholes". 
Wow. I guess can see both sides. Charging for advise would solve that probelm. Then they can take or leave it and not waste your time..


If the commercial beekeepers didn't have professional and efficient results, I wouldn't be reading the commercial forum as much. I get a tremendous amount if insight from their posts. And I thank them for it. But call me stubborn. I see what is in front of ME, not someone clear across the country and act as I feel it is appropriate.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I disregard Michael Palmer's adviCe all the time.  We're still friends. (i think)

Look, it just advice, it isn't a command. Take it or leave it. I state what I think I know and I state what my experience has been and I suggest that people not do something which seems iffy or unnecessary. Quite often there follows much disagreement or "Why not? Let him do it. Who are you to tell him not to." to which I reply, "Go ahead. Be sure to get back to us w/ the results." Knowing full well no follow up will come. But, hey, what the heck. We're just talking here.

Plenty of times people are only asking "what if" questions w/ no intent on doing something.


----------



## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > Except for someone like me who joined in like 2002 or do but lost that screen name (rwjedi) due to password and email trouble.
> 
> Are you _sure _about that screen name? :scratch:
> 
> ...


I said 2002 or so (ok so the post says "do", but I'm sure most realized that was a typo). I must have been a good boy and lurked on here for a long time before joining and posting, because I got my bees spring of 2003 and I KNOW I was checking this site out LONG before that. 

Then again the whole thing is a bit silly, just because someone has been on here or been a beekeeper for 20 years doesn't really mean much. A friend of mine's father has been keeping bees for 13 years, but only has 1 year of experience (think about it, it will come to you ). Lauri has only been doing this for what 2 or 3 years and I'd take her advice on things that she says that I run thru my brain filter and they make sense. I wouldn't take any advice from my friends father.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Any basic beekeeping questions asked on any forum here on Beesource are answered with courtesy
> 
> I think part of the problem is the medium of text is without the visual and vocal mannerisms that disarm things in face to face conversation. I've seen people get offended by replies I thought were certainly not intended to be insulting or short, just practical.


Very well said.


----------



## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> I think part of the problem is the medium of text is without the visual and vocal mannerisms that disarm things in face to face conversation. I've seen people get offended by replies I thought were certainly not intended to be insulting or short, just practical. I find it's best to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they did not mean anything personal unless it is obviously personal.


I agree this with this. I try not to post something that can be taken differently than I intended but it still happens. I can control what I say but not what you hear!

With the exception of participating here most of us spend 99% of our time being the only beekeeper in the room and by default the most knowledgable and successful. Spending most of your day with people that believe everything you say can go to your head. It's must be hard for some to adjust their attitude here if they think of themselves as the local expert and bee whispering Guru.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Lauri - I just want to reiterate; I think your posts are great. You have a huge amount of experience and I like your philosophy on how you approach things. You are clearly a careful worker and enjoy good success. Your photos are fun and informative. I value your input.

Not that my opinion matters for anything, but my original post was directed to those who:

1) have few hives AND 
2) have been keeping bees for a short period of time AND 
3) post alot (which is further exacerbated by long winded posts) AND 
4) their posts consists of telling everyone the best way to keep bees.

#4 is the most telling, and, obviously, the exact details of all these are not precise.

For the most part, unless ALL FOUR of those criteria are met, I personally would not consider the person a keyboard beekeeper. In other words, asking lots of questions is fine, simply offering up your personal experience is fine, being new to beekeeping is fine, having only a couple of hives is fine. For myself, I like hearing the questions and struggles of a newbie because I am one, so when a new beekeeper with just a couple of hives asks a question, I am all ears for what people have to say. Also, I love hearing from someone who has had many 100's of hives for many years because you know they probably know how to keep bees. And, those who professionally run thousands of hives have hard won knowledge that can be super valuable. Etc.

JMHO and FWIW


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> _Barry _may be able to merge the accounts, if you ask nicely.


No need to ask!


----------



## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Shinbone - you have a point.

There are some great beekeepers online, but people with actual lives, and work, and bees are definitely a lot of work sometimes, do not always get online often. I ate and drank beesource in summer 2011 and while I was doing that I learned who to listen to and trust. Charlie B is still my favorite, he had the time and patience and didn't yell at me as I had already lost one hive and was trying to save the other... 

Nowadays I kind of know what to do, have books, but I still did something yesterday that may cost me my nuc, because if I hadn't of done it I would have lost it for sure. Fingers crossed. I don't really ask questions expecting useful answers much anymore, people have lives and are busy and I have a couple of years, and lost a few hives, saved a few more...

Anyway it's winter, I'll be around off and on til weather breaks. For 30 minutes a day, have to budget my time, lol.

Gypsi


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> With the exception of participating here most of us spend 99% of our time being the only beekeeper in the room and by default the most knowledgable and successful. Spending most of your day with people that believe everything you say can go to your head. It's must be hard for some to adjust their attitude here if they think of themselves as the local expert and bee whispering Guru.


I have long had the theory that disagreements happen on Beesource for exactly this reason. Many folks are used to being the local authority, the "go to person" in the community that people rely on for bee information. When posting on a forum like this they are suddenly subjected to scrutiny by lots of other folks with at least as much experience and expertise and often their reaction is to get angry.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

To add to what Jim Lyon posted, it also seems that many big fights are because each person is right for their own locale and/or goals, but their method(s) won't transfer to the other person's locale and/or goals. Like two ships passing in the night as each hacks away at the other - if each could only see the other's perspective it wouldn't happen.


----------



## Homemaid (Sep 4, 2013)

```

```
As you can see by my post #'s I'm new to this also. I like to read everyone's posts. Yes I have taken a few classes and done the fall conference and everyone has their own way. Not saying any are right or wrong it's just what works. I told one instructor things he had never heard of but was going to try and I'm just a newby... Hopefully things I do read and learn about here can benefit me and my bees in the future.

Just because I'm new to beekeeping and the forum does not mean my opinions don't count as much as someone who has thousands of posts. Everyone had to start somewhere...


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> However if you choose to weigh in on the more controversial issues then expect controversial answers. Its a big part of the reason Barry set up a CCD forum.


I am a little disappointed in the CCD forum. It should be renamed the pesticide-kill forum.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> bee whispering Guru.


You know why "bee whispering Guru"s whisper, don't you? So's you have to lean in and pay attention and catch every word.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Homemaid said:


> Just because I'm new to beekeeping and the forum does not mean my opinions don't count as much as someone who has thousands of posts. Everyone had to start somewhere...


Sure, you are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean it has much weight. Who would you rather take driving lessons from? The 60 year old Driving Instructor? Or the Teenager newly graduated from Driving School?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>There is one beekeeper quoting Michael Bush saying bees should not be fed .

It's kind of amazing to see things like that... I've never said that.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Michael B, I think that was referring to pollen Sub. You do not seem to be on the same end of the spectrum as Keith Jarret.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Keith sells and makes Pollen Sub, good or bad you would expect him to be on that end of the spectrum. Kieths customers are also different than MB. they really need pollen sub for earlier brood for almonds. If I remember correctly MB doesn't see that as an advantage , and more of a risk. but I am sure he can answer that. 
Too much brood to early can kill a hive as fast as anything.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Yes , and both understand why they do what they do. It is not because they read it on the internet.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

We are straying off topic... but...

>Too much brood to early can kill a hive as fast as anything. 

That is my problem with pollen patties early in the spring. My problem in the fall is that I want long lived bees. That requires real pollen. So if I dont' get a fall flow, yes, I feed real pollen (dry in the open) or, if I'm short, half pollen and half substitute mixed dry and fed in the open.

So, yes I do feed pollen. Yes I do give capped honey to colonies that require it to get through the winter and if I don't have capped honey to give them, I feed syrup or dry sugar.

Where I part from most is I do not manage my bees in a way that requires feeding on a routine basis. I try to manage them so they don't NEED to be fed and I feed them if they DO need to be fed. I do not believe that "feeding can't hurt". It can hurt in a lot of ways, but starving will kill them for sure...

They don't need to be fed when there is food coming in. They don't need to be fed when they have plenty of stores. 

They do need to be fed if they are going into winter too light. They do need to be fed if it's late winter and nothing is blooming and they are running out of stores.

One of the main reasons that domestic bees fail less often than feral bees is that we feed. We can help make up for a bad year or bad timing of rains.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> It's kind of amazing to see things like that... I've never said that.


It is amazing how that happens. I’ve had folks come up to me and say ‘Remember when you said…….’ And it’ll be something so totally outside of anything I’ve ever believed much less said. And what’s worse is when they insist that they heard you say it.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I thought shinbone was clear about describing keyboard beekeepers in the first post, but it is certainly even more clear after shinbone's post #156.

many took offense to this term and the thread was off to the races.

And all the while the keyboard beekeepers are, and will continue using BeeSource to fuel their own narcissism.


----------



## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Mark, good to see you still whispering the bees.... 

Gypsi


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Gypsi,
I am glad to see you still check in from time to time. How's the hand? All better now?

Is this the nurse who used to talk w/ us on Tailgater Forums?


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

beemandan said:


> I’ve had folks come up to me and say ‘Remember when you said…….’ And it’ll be something so totally outside of anything I’ve ever believed much less said. And what’s worse is when they insist that they heard you say it.


Isn't that just called "getting old"?


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

gmcharlie said:


> Keith sells and makes Pollen Sub, good or bad you would expect him to be on that end of the spectrum..


Well said GMC, keith runs bees to bee the most profitable, not always the best for the bees, but this is how we make a living & have a light bill to pay every month.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Keith is doing a pretty good job of introducing probiotics to commercial beekeepers. Making a living at it is also a good thing.

Somebody has to push out the edge of the envelope.


----------



## LSHonda310 (Mar 30, 2013)

That's were the experience comes in- knowing how far to push them and still keep them healthy

I hope to be there some day


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Sure, you are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean it has much weight. Who would you rather take driving lessons from? The 60 year old Driving Instructor? Or the Teenager newly graduated from Driving School?


True.... experience does play a beneficial role.... to a point. 

On the other hand, would you rather have brain surgery from a 60 year old brain surgeon or a younger brain surgeon who knows the latest and greatest technology and techniques available? 
Truth is BOTH "newbies" and "died in the wool" bekeepers are beneficial once you leave your "tudes" on the back burner.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mr.Beeman said:


> True.... experience does play a beneficial role.... to a point.
> 
> On the other hand, would you rather have brain surgery from a 60 year old brain surgeon or a younger brain surgeon who knows the latest and greatest technology and techniques available?
> Truth is BOTH "newbies" and "died in the wool" bekeepers are beneficial once you leave your "tudes" on the back burner.


Who says older beekeepers are died in the wool? Here is one 60 year old who has radically changed his entire operation in the past 10 years. While basic beekeeping fundamentals remain unchanged, from an economic and productivity standpoint you have to evolve in your approach to be successful.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

An older experienced beekeeper knows when he sees something he doesn't recognize or understand. What does a newbee know?

I would choose the older surgeon, unless the younger surgeon had quite a few surgeries under his belt and his new technology and techniques were proven. 

Mostly, I don't want anyone messin' w/ my brain. And beekeeping ain't brain surgery.

I will never go where you all may one day go, I'm older, therefore more likely to not outlast you. You, on the other hand, will never go where I have been. Yet, in some ways I have been where you have been or are now. Will you look back 30 years from now and see things then as I see things now? Or will beekeeping be a distant memory of something you tried?


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> An older experienced beekeeper knows when he sees something he doesn't recognize or understand. What does a newbee know?


30% overwinter loss rates. Queens that last an average of 6 months.

What else do they need to know to want something better?


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >
> 
> It's kind of amazing to see things like that... I've never said that.


And that was a direct quote.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

melliferal said:


> Isn't that just called "getting old"?


Me or them?


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

WLC said:


> Somebody has to push out the edge of the envelope.


Well said WLC, if your not living on the edge then your taking up too much space...

WLC, did you know.... that a hight grade of sub will raise 30% less mites then a poor grade of sub or natural pollen... food for thought.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well said WLC, if your not living on the edge then your taking up too much space...
> 
> WLC, did you know.... that a hight grade of sub will rise 30% less mites then a poor grade of sub or natural pollen... food for thought.


I would love to ask questions about that, but we would go too far afield from the thread topic.


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

beemandan said:


> It is amazing how that happens. I’ve had folks come up to me and say ‘Remember when you said…….’ And it’ll be something so totally outside of anything I’ve ever believed much less said. And what’s worse is when they insist that they heard you say it.


It goes both ways.
"I've never said that" can be an easy out for those with short memory.
We have an investment show on the radio locally. For years and years the host beat up and made fun of us that paid off our mortgage.
Every week he would tell us that we should borrow up to 125% of the value of our property and invest it in stocks. Week after week after week.....
What does he say now?
"I've never said that".
Some of us have a pretty good memory.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> "I've never said that" can be an easy out for those with short memory.


Ok...I'm convinced....my old brain has turned to swiss cheese.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> 30% overwinter loss rates. Queens that last an average of 6 months.
> 
> What else do they need to know to want something better?


Your reply implies an exclusivity. Who doesn't want something better? Some of us have seen something better and long for it. We dream of what once was. Others may dream of what might be. Those of us dependent on bees for our livelihood work as much as we can at keeping our life's work growing.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Ok...I'm convinced....my old brain has turned to swiss cheese.


Bovine spongeophorm encepholitus, perhaps? heh,heh


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Your reply implies an exclusivity. Who doesn't want something better? Some of us have seen something better and long for it. We dream of what once was. Others may dream of what might be. Those of us dependent on bees for our livelihood work as much as we can at keeping our life's work growing.


I'm all for dreaming. However, I'm working on having actual TF bees, as well as a bunch of other stuff.

As for making a living with bees , of course I understand. But, I also understand the hidden costs as well.

I know for a fact that there are many sustainable models of agriculture being applied as we speak.

I hope that you don't mind if I look elsewhere to find a sustainable model of beekeeping.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Bovine spongeophorm encepholitus, perhaps? heh,heh


A perfectly good excuse for me.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> I hope that you don't mind if I look elsewhere to find a sustainable model of beekeeping.


I hope you don't mind if I say that I wish you would.


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

I suppose it was always a danger given the topic; but does the thread have to be this personal?


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Off topic


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Off topic


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

You guys aren't going to make me scold you again, are you? I'm thinking a few spankings are in order too. 
Barry, get the belt.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Lauri:

If you're doing the spanking, Mark goes first.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

off topic


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

WLC said:


> Lauri:
> 
> If you're doing the spanking, Mark goes first.


For Mark, I might just have to break out the stun gun  Since some of the guys here are already use to a daily dose of pain (Stings and reading Beesource) I may just have to start on the high setting right from the get go.

Now, wheres that Keith Jarrett when you need him?? You can run but you can't hide.


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

In fairness to the academic:

"I am perfectly aware how difficult it is to reason with a large class of bee-keepers, some of whom have been so often imposed upon, that they have lost all faith in the truth of any statements which may be made by any one interested in a patent hive, while others stigmatize all knowledge which does not square with their own, as "book-knowledge," and unworthy the attention of practical men." 
--- _Rev. L. L. Langstroth_

For the sake of context, though, immediately after this he suggests that everything he asserts can now be easily proven thanks to hives which can be opened and inspected; being a scientist, he would never have insisted that anyone take his word on faith (his ecclesiastic office notwithstanding).


----------



## linn (Nov 19, 2010)

off topic


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

off topic


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

off topic


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

off topic


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

off topic


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Stop!

In the Name of Love!


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

off topic


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

off topic


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

off topic


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Off topic


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

offtopic


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

off topic


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

off topic


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

off topic


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Earth to WLC???

Maia, is that you?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Off topic


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Bing Bing Bing, we have a winner, from post #179:

While basic beekeeping fundamentals remain unchanged,.....

No one knows what they do not know, and it is knowledge of the basic beekeeping fundamentals that shows who can talk the talk, and walk the walk. Without the fundamentals you are just a "banging gong or a noisy cymbal"(SteveG will know the exact quote).

Crazy Roland


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Wlc, back away from the keyboard!!!

We have your head surrounded!


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Close Roland. 

1 Corinthians 13:1

noisy gong or a clanging cymbal


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keyboard beekeeper....
This thread has spun into the perfect example of a keyboard beekeeper, need I say more


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Pardon me, but I was explaining the Tim Ives thing, and how I was doing with it.

How does that make me a keyboard beekeeper?


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Out of 30 plus deleted posts, you had 16....
And you were asked to back away from your keyboard by the moderators, within one of your deleted posts, and you still kept typing... 
Ha ha ha 

Quite fitting for a topic " keyboard beekeepers"


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> Pardon me, but I was explaining the Tim Ives thing, and how I was doing with it.
> 
> How does that make me a keyboard beekeeper?


Think I can answer that. You were offered the chance to SHOW someone your Tim Ives Tower Hives, and backed off real fast.

Regardless that you've been KEYBOARDING about your Tim Ives Tower Hives for months.

Keyboard beekeeper.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ian:

Lauri just needs to figure out how to actually delete the post without leaving the editing function live. Fun, fun, fun.

I was having a perfectly good conversation with clyde, etc. .

I didn't mean to leave you out of it though.

So, how's the border looking nowadays?


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Think I can answer that. You were offered the chance to SHOW someone your Tim Ives Tower Hives, and backed off real fast.Regardless that you've been KEYBOARDING about your Tim Ives Tower Hives for months.
> Keyboard beekeeper.


OT:

I really am a busy man. Especially this spring.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keyboard beekeeper


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I ****ed near popped a hernia and broke my keaster lifting those mediums on that icey roof.

I wish I could have used a keyboard.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WLC said:


> I wish I could have used a keyboard.


Well at least it would seem you know your way around a keyboard.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There are lots of interesting things in this thread, not least of which is the number of deleted posts.



> Where I part from most is I do not manage my bees in a way that requires feeding on a routine basis. I try to manage them so they don't NEED to be fed and I feed them if they DO need to be fed. I do not believe that "feeding can't hurt". It can hurt in a lot of ways, but starving will kill them for sure...


I had this wrong for a lot of years and really did not start to understand why I was wrong until I read Brother Adam's viewpoint on feeding. Lauri, if you want to suggest a good answer to the beekeeper who is adamant about not feeding, you might refer them to Brother Adam's Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey. He gives a very succinct rationale of when and why to feed.

Re keyboard beekeepers, there have been a lot of newbies on this forum over the years. Some last. Some don't. Bad beekeepers don't last very long. Either become a good beekeeper or you won't have any bees to keep.

I value the knowledge gained from this forum because it has taught me ways to do things that I did not know and would not have figured out on my own without a lot of invested time and effort. Be thankful we all have this resource.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good post Fusion Power.

Although I have poked some fun at some keyboard beekeepers in denial, I am one too.

I admit it, I like keyboarding about bees. Why do I do it? cos I can that's all.

And I learn quite a bit.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Oldtimer, 
Keyboard beekeeper, 
Ha ha ha, that's a riot


----------



## TooFarGone (Aug 19, 2012)

"The Expert Syndrome"
(This is going to be a long winded post by a new beekeeper, probably with lots of spelling errors to boot!)

While my sister and I were hiking the Pacific Crest Trail from Mexico to Canada in 1979, we developed the concept of "The Expert Syndrome". Since we were backpacking at the time, we couched it in terms of backpacking. A typical example is as follows: A person gets introduced to the joys of backpacking. They are extremely interested and read all manner of books and magazines on equipment and techniques. After about their third backpacking trip they become "Experts" (with a capitol "E"). They are then prepared to discuss and defend their position on all manner of equipment, camping styles, food,ect. For example, they will argue for hours about the relative merits of goose down -vs- Polarguard sleeping bag insulation or the merits of stove fuel types vs camp fires. Many of these individuals will never progress beyond this stage in their personal development. 

I will admit that I was a bit of an equipment snob when we began our PCT hike. Most of our gear, with the exception of my sisters Kelty pack (which is still in used), was sewn by me from Frostline kits. We became students of outdoor gear under heavy use conditions and we saw what worked and what fell apart (like the injection molded Coleman pack frame that warped when left in full sun). After several months on the trail, we began hearing rumors of "Dogfood Dave", a mysterious through hiker that was reportedly subsisting on dog biscuits. We knew about him for almost a month before we finally caught up with him at Crater Lake National Park. Dave had a cavernous canvas rucksack with no frame and a tump line (a rope that goes from the pack around the forehead), and a walking stick that was made from a branch with a claw hammer head on top! We had an epiphany. Dogfood Dave, with his paucity of primitive gear, was successfully doing exactly what we were doing! This completely shattered our preconceived notions about backpacking equipment. By the end of the PCT hike, we were (small "e") experts, although whe had a much greater appreciation of the fact that there is always more than one way to do anything, and your way may not be the best way...

The Expert Syndrome applies in most areas of life...


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

That leads me to wonder, "Do Keyboard Beekeepers eat their own Dog Food?" :lookout:


----------



## TooFarGone (Aug 19, 2012)

Nope, Bee Bread!!!


----------



## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Mark - hand is fully recovered, thank you. Been a wild year, many ups and downs. 

Lost a swarm sometime after first freeze, old queen either took most of a very full hive with her or there was a secondary swarm and I lost them too. Hopefully I can pull out of winter with a couple of hives. It was a rough year all around. Funny thing, the honey and pollen was mostly there. I put the nurse bees and honey, almost no brood, in an established hive, stuck some in a freezer...


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Everyone is a hero on the internet..... Here's my question on the subject, why do people think they need a club, mentor, or experienced beekeeper to show them how to keep bees and how are these any different from people posting on the forums? Honestly, beekeeping is more about understanding what the bees need and being able to adjust your methods to your local conditions instead of blindly following some idealogy brought in by your own personal beliefs or someone elses.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> Everyone is a hero on the internet..... Here's my question on the subject, why do people think they need a club, mentor, or experienced beekeeper to show them how to keep bees and how are these any different from people posting on the forums? Honestly, beekeeping is more about understanding what the bees need and being able to adjust your methods to your local conditions instead of blindly following some idealogy brought in by your own personal beliefs or someone elses.


I'm sure that's true, but I think you have to have some sort of mental framework from which to act. My bees don't speak English, at least to me, so they can't tell me what they need in words. And what they need... well, the reason that we don't all just agree about everything is that different folks think they need different stuff. So a beginner needs a starting point that makes sense to him or her.

And we all have a personal ideology that influences our decisions. I think that the trick is to adjust our ideologies to the realities of what we observe, and not the other way around. For beginners like me with very limited hands-on experience, well, we have to learn mostly from the experiences and observations of others. And even in this, we have to choose which experiences we fold into our own unified field theory of beekeeping.  That means choosing who to take seriously and who needs to be listened to with caution. Of course, if you know very little, like me, then you can learn something useful from almost anyone.

But there's a winnowing-out process that has to take place.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> Here's my question on the subject, why do people think they need a club, mentor, or experienced beekeeper to show them how to keep bees and how are these any different from people posting on the forums?


In my case there are any number or reasons that I learn from outside input (clubs, mentors or internet).

I learn from others mistakes. I get new ideas...things I'd never considered independently (my oa vaporizer arrived yesterday...an idea that came from Beesource and I recently made the most beautiful creamed honey after following a thread here on the subject). I learn from reading. I learn from discussions with others...including internet dialogs. 

Each of these reasons and more are why I value outside input. I also learn from my mistakes and experience...inside input.

Altogether...the outside and inside input conspire to frequently show me how little I actually know.

I also like to share things I've learned. I teach a series of beekeeping classes. I pound people on Beesource with the idea that varroa is our biggest enemy...learned painfully some years ago. I've started threads on vinegar making, candle mold making and a great mold release I came across. I like to believe that some of those things have been useful to others.

So...go ahead...call me a keyboard beekeeper....see if I care.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> Either become a good beekeeper or you won't have any bees to keep.


Since the national average in losses is right around 30%. this means that the good beekeepers only lose every bee they own every 3.3 years? Hmm I don't think I would be hard pressed to find past beekeepers that averaged queens that lasted that long. Now I will not argue that loosing bees is a sign of a worthless beekeeper. I am just wondering where the good ones are?


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Bret Adee lost over half his overwintering hives this past year. If a beekeeper/businessman of that experience and standing can lose 20 thousand colonies, there's a much more serious fundamental issue in play.


----------



## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Any basic beekeeping questions asked on any forum here on Beesource are answered with courtesy save a rare off the wall reply. However if you choose to weigh in on the more controversial issues then expect controversial answers. Its a big part of the reason Barry set up a CCD forum. In the same vein if a non commercial chooses to challenge or give advice to a commercial then, yes, don't be offended if you are challenged just be ready to state your case. But cases where newcomers have been attacked or ridiculed for asking basic questions are something pretty rare on here. Lets not forget that this thread was started by a newcomer stating frustration at being unable to seperate what advice was based on experience on what was given by someone with little beekeeping experience or "keyboard beekeepers" as he termed them.


Thanks Jim. This website is a good thing for both the commercial beeks and the hobby folks. Its been my best source of info and help since I've been keeping bees. 

Also, thanks for the queen cells I got from you this past spring! They worked out great. When you are down in Texas I'll bring you the cooler back.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WLC said:


> Lauri:
> 
> If you're doing the spanking, Mark goes first.


Ooooooh, Lauri is doing spankings, that could be fun.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> Either become a good beekeeper or you won't have any bees to keep.


Not true. Very few good beekeepers are not willing to sell bees to behavers. Behavers just want bees. Beekeepers primarily want to sell something so it is a perfect relationship. What blows my mind is most beekeepers buy bees, except for MP. Go figure.


----------



## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

One of the best things about the Internet is the range of experiences brought to a thread. As a novice, hobbyist I have experiences in my 56+ years not learned in an apiary that may be relevant to beekeeping. An article or a conversation that sparks an idea, a mistake made of ignorance that presents a solution, even tricks and methods used in my real work life that can be used in beekeeping, you never know where the next labor saving, bee saving, honey making, money making idea will come from.

I have attended beek conventions where after the PhD presents his research a hand will go up and you hear "have you tried this .....?". You can see a light bulb illuminate over the head of the presenter. 

The gentlemen teaching the new beekeeping class for our local club always opens the class reminding the new students that every year he learns something new from his classes.

I think we all become better at what we do when we listen, filter, adapt and implement.


----------



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I have been apart of BS for a little over 4 years and I would never give any advice I did not try myself .
And one thing I have learned here at BS who is the bee havers and who the true bee keepers are.
I know I'm a bee keeper and love every part of it even over wintering as I see it that's part of bee keeping if you have to buy bees every year you may be behind a keyboard to much and should be in the bee yard.
But hey I'm selling nucs this coming spring and plan on tripling my nuc production for the coming year.
And there will always be some bee havers looking for bees it's a great market and keeping bees if not hard it's just work if ya want to do it right. This is the end of my fourth year and I have more hives then ever and I have not lost any so far this year so I'm getting better not worst and have not bought bees in two years .


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

RichardsonTX said:


> Thanks Jim. This website is a good thing for both the commercial beeks and the hobby folks. Its been my best source of info and help since I've been keeping bees.
> 
> Also, thanks for the queen cells I got from you this past spring! They worked out great. When you are down in Texas I'll bring you the cooler back.


Glad to hear it, but don't make a special trip, those dollar store coolers work great as a cell warmer in the morning and a beer cooler in the evening......wait a minute are you suggesting you didn't lose 50% the first year? .


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

TooFarGone said:


> was sewn by me from Frostline kits.


:thumbsup: Another Frostline junkie!!! Loved their products.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> What blows my mind is most beekeepers buy bees, except for MP. Go figure.



Are you including queens and breeder queens in the statement you keyboarded, or are you focusing on nucs and packages? 

Besides queens, the last "bees" I purchased was a queenless package in 2009. Prior to that were two nucs, purchased in '08.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> What blows my mind is most beekeepers buy bees, except for MP. Go figure.


...and who do you think "most beekeepers" are buying these bees from? The bee store?


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

WLC said:


> Bret Adee lost over half his overwintering hives this past year. If a beekeeper/businessman of that experience and standing can lose 20 thousand colonies, there's a much more serious fundamental issue in play.



Poor poor Bret.... got anyone else to trot out? maybe someone whos not gameing the system?? For every Bret there are 100 Jim Lyons.....


----------



## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Going back to why have a forum or a mentor or a local group - I ran without one until my first hive was dead, thinking the gal I bought them from would help me was a sad expectation, they were loaded with mites, she had set it up in deep deep shade so the small hive beetles and wax moths had a field day, and that was after most of the bees swarmed off 2 months in. I joined beesource over a leaky boardman feeder, supplied by that beek, and they listened to me whine as I opened the now empty being robbed hive and began my voyage from beehaver *(all I really wanted to be) to beekeeper. 

2nd hive - warranty hive of 2 frames of bees and 18 empty frames that she told me to set in shade, I got up to about 7 frames of bees and chased the mites out of with the help of beesource. It was gloriously robbed out, probably by the lost swarm of the first hive, not a small robbery, they brought the whole hive, but I learned a LOT.

And this year, taking photos of my brood I happened to post some online and an experienced beek said, hmm that looks like European Foul Brood. Fortunately when she said this I hadn't quite managed to lose all my bees. I had a weak hive on old beetree comb and I shared their honey out to all the bees, but the hive next to them, with a high laying queen, had been robbing them, and I was sharing their brood out to my weakening hives, so yup, my intervention made matters worse. Antibiotics and I pulled all honey and comb and managed to salvage 2 hives. I am a member of my local group. None of them have even my hives, or SEEN European Foulbrood. Except me. I took photos, gonna do a slide show... We have mentors and share information for the good of the bees. Because everything seems to be out to get them...(in Texas anyway)

Gypsi


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

GLOCK said:


> I have been apart of BS for a little over 4 years and I would never give any advice I did not try myself .


On some threads where people ask a question I'll mention what I have done and how well it worked when I did it. Anyone who wants to read it as "advice" does so at their own risk!


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> ...and who do you think "most beekeepers" are buying these bees from? The bee store?


And now I have a name for my future nuc- & queen-selling operation! Thank you sir. Don't worry, you'll be credited.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Barry said:


> :thumbsup: Another Frostline junkie!!! Loved their products.


Me too!

I was a fanatical backpacker and mountain climber in high school. I couldn't afford to buy all the expensive down clothing I needed, so I bought many Frostline kits to save 50%. Down sleeping bag, down vest, down booties, down mittens, mountain parka, etc.

I would work on those kits all weekend and every evening using my mother's 30 year old White sewing machine. I would get really excited as I got close to finishing, and I would fake being sick so I could stay home from school to finish the thing up. My mom knew, of course, but let me do it since she could tell I was so into it to be completing whatever it was I was working on.

After assembly, I wore the heck out of my Frostline gear.

Those kits were a lot of work, but well worth it for a high school kid who's time had practically zero value to anyone.

Holubar made kits, too, but I never made any Holubar items.

Sorry for the OT, but, good memories!

History of Frostline company: http://www.oregonphotos.com/Frostline1.html


----------



## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

WLC said:


> Bret Adee lost over half his overwintering hives this past year. If a beekeeper/businessman of that experience and standing can lose 20 thousand colonies, there's a much more serious fundamental issue in play.


There is too much missing from that statement to tell if what is "at play" was environmental or driven by a beekeeper's choices. How much honey was left on the hive? If they were too light going into winter were they fed? What was the mite loading? Were they treated? Was there enough talented manpower to take care of the above reliably? All of these are choices a businessman would make and are in no way environmental.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Hokie Bee Daddy said:


> There is too much missing from that statement to tell if what is "at play" was environmental or driven by a beekeeper's choices. How much honey was left on the hive? If they were too light going into winter were they fed? What was the mite loading? Were they treated? Was there enough talented manpower to take care of the above reliably? All of these are choices a businessman would make and are in no way environmental.


I don't know what happened. All I know is that there was quite a scramble going on to get enough hives together for almond pollination at the same time.

Objectively, should we rely on commercial beekeepers as our experts?

Or, should we look elsewhere?

I'm just not hearing the same conversation going on from commercial beekeepers that I am from scientists and the USDA.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

WLC said:


> I don't know what happened. All I know is that there was quite a scramble going on to get enough hives together for almond pollination at the same time.
> 
> Objectively, should we rely on commercial beekeepers as our experts?


No, but you are relying on commercial hives available for almond pollination in early February as your yardstick in judging the state of commercial beekeeping in the US. Is it reasonable to expect there to be a million and a half large hives sitting out in California each year in late winter and then if they arent to declare a crisis? I dont know, but I do know the demand for strong hives at that time of year is unprecedented in that wasnt asked of beekeepers 20 or 30 years ago so we dont really have a past history to compare to. Adee's, and as far as I am aware everyone other commercial operation, got their numbers back just fine by June, much as they did in the days before the almond rush.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

WLC said:


> Objectively, should we rely on commercial beekeepers as our experts?
> 
> Or, should we look elsewhere?


Anyone can ask questions because that is easy. The hard part is the answer.

WLC, you make it sound like you know more about beekeeping than the commercial beekeepers and have the inside track to the answer. So, WLC, please tell us, who knows how to stop bee losses?


----------



## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

And you won't hear the same conversation from them. They have two different views of the world. One is in the business to make money and will make decisions along those lines. The others have no or few resource constraints. In the business world it will be the better financial decision to let some hives die out. I read a thread here a while back from a commercial guy who was trying to decide if it would be better to take all of a hives' honey, shake the hive out so he wouldn't need to winter them, and then start over with packages in the spring. As I remember it was a compelling financial case.

Also, you can't base an industry's performance on one piece of evidence. In any industry there will be poor operations, there will be a core of solid businesses, and there will be a small group that excel.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Jim:

I'd say that California almond pollination serves as a good example/metaphor for the underlying issues I've been referring to.

Despite the rhetoric, I don't see the commercial beekeepers as the one's advocating for the issue of managed/native pollinator health.

Objectively, I would say that that advocacy is coming from a different group.


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I didn't say forums since that's what we're talking about as being 'an issue'. I was just hitting on the idea that people in the forums are always telling people to join a club, get a mentor etc... when there's a wealth of knowledge available right in front of your face at home. How many posts start off with , "well, it might be too late but I just found Beesource" (aka, keyboard beekeeping heaven).... You may have to wade through the true keyboard beeks but you can still learn a lot either way, either what to do or at least what not to do.

Also, how many horror stories of bad mentors and clubs come about so I see the issue both ways either online or off....


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Hokie Bee Daddy said:


> I read a thread here a while back from a commercial guy who was trying to decide if it would be better to take all of a hives' honey, shake the hive out so he wouldn't need to winter them, and then start over with packages in the spring. As I remember it was a compelling financial case.


One perspective out right appalled some beekeepers, the other understood exactly the issues at hand.

And then , there was a beekeeper that had no clue... But kept contributing anyway, throughout the entire thread


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

WLC said:


> I don't know what happened. All I know is that there was quite a scramble going on to get enough hives together for almond pollination at the same time.
> 
> Objectively, should we rely on commercial beekeepers as our experts?
> 
> ...


Finally, after slogging through 255 posts I now am starting to get a crisper definition of a "keyboard beekeeper".


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, since some of you have called the question:

Scientists like Marla Spivak have said that we have to stop treating our Honeybees, and the USDA has given beekeepers the mandate to develop resistant stocks of Honeybees.

I don't see that message shining through from the commercial types here.

Frankly, with some of the thousands of posts they each have individually, who do they think they're calling a keyboard beekeeper?

Pot/Kettle, Black.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I was telling my wife about this thread, and she gave me a Lao-Tzu quote for you all to consider:

"One who contains content, remains content."

I'll point out that the sage is using two different meanings for the word "content."


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Sounds like something I read in a fortune cookie.


----------



## Hokie Bee Daddy (Apr 1, 2011)

WLC said:


> "the USDA has given beekeepers the mandate to develop resistant stocks of Honeybees."


Try giving your spouse a "mandate" and see how far that gets you. 

If it is truly a national priority then a subsidy needs to be given to commercial beekeepers until they can have a sustainably profitable "treatment free" operation. If the "experts" are so sure it can be done then a five to ten year subsidy to get there is reasonable.

The commercials aren't charities. If you take from them then you need to give something back somewhere else.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I've said that Beekeepers need subsidies to both stabilize their operations and open up new markets for a while now.

What do these guys say? "Beepocalypse? What Beepocalypse?"


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Hokie Bee Daddy said:


> until they can have a sustainably profitable "treatment free" operation


That word, "sustainable" keeps popping up. I note how it's also tied, many times, with, "profitable," and very commonly with, "treatment free."

I find it an interesting coincidence as I sit at my keyboard with the snow and ice surrounding me and only the best memories of the past season warmed by the wood stove. Sustainable beekeeping is easier said than done in our age of freely accessible synthetic chemicals, legal or otherwise. Easier in theory than in reality until the hives start crashing.

I continue to ponder how long our present paradigm will continue to exist, or even persist. Perhaps that subsidy should come sooner before we experience something more severe than what we've have the last decade or so.

If CCD is the canary in the coal mine, the problem isn't with the dead canary.

Now this is definitely a keyboard post.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Subsidies?? really??? All gredibility that may have been there is toally gone. only a complete fool would want the government any more involved in our beekeeping.

To obtain the subsides you would have to raise bees in the manner they dictate. apparently there are more clueless people than I thought.

Some of you should be ashamed, I know I have seen WLC complain about farm subsidies, and now he wants one..... Time to unsubscribe.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

gmcharlie said:


> Some of you should be ashamed, I know I have seen WLC complain about farm subsidies, and now he wants one..... Time to unsubscribe.


Well, I did complain about subsidizing unsustainable forms of agriculture. That's true.

What would it cost to subsidize beekeeping in the U.S.? 300-500 million?

It's a drop in the bucket compared to the increased productivity managed pollinators can provide.


----------



## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

WLC said:


> Scientists like Marla Spivak have said that we have to stop treating our Honeybees


No she hasn't.

Dr. Spivak has said that we certainly need to treat smarter - for instance, in response to a problem rather than as a matter of course - but she never said we have to "stop treating" bees. I think you're trying to hijack her message there.


----------



## Sour Kraut (Jun 17, 2012)

D Coates said:


> You've got the hot and heavy that burn out or get kicked off that show up on other sites. Then you've got the others that's merely want appear more than they are to appear relevant.


Don't forget the 'gotta have the last word' types.


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

melliferal said:


> No she hasn't.
> 
> Dr. Spivak has said that we certainly need to treat smarter - for instance, in response to a problem rather than as a matter of course - but she never said we have to "stop treating" bees. I think you're trying to hijack her message there.


How hard would it be to review her Ted Talk to see how she actually phrased it?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Gary L. Glaenzer said:


> Don't forget the 'gotta have the last word' types.


LOL! Have been noticing that. Same person, every subject.  

No sensible case need be presented, just keep posting till everyone else has gone away.


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

gmcharlie said:


> Subsidies?? really??? To obtain the subsides you would have to raise bees in the manner they dictate. Time to unsubscribe.


Absolutely. I'd expect strings and conditions. To obtain subsidies would have a targeted purpose of curtailing an unsustainable method that may just work itself out on it's own, but not with economic consequences and food shortages. 

Subsidies, in the ideal barring the normal governmental "efficiencies," would provide enough of an incentive to move to more sustainable practices. Heaven knows our present state of affairs is not sustainable. The question becomes how much longer can we continue? What's going to change that would force us to change? At what costs economically, socially, environmentally? 

My hope would not be a subsidy to continue the status quo, that there would be guidance and goals ("dictates"), and offer a chance for producers to weather what would likely be an extreme challenge and resistance, even an inability, to change without said subsidy.

I see the real problem lies with our agricultural production. We elect to meet the increased demands of a growing population demanding higher standards (i.e. meat) which results in an incredible concentration of feedlots and monoculture. All the noble intentions of the backyard beekeepers and top bar enthusiasts, no disrespect intended, cannot possibly put a dent in our pollination requirements, nor can they amass the resources to move all those hives.

The whole scenario has apocalyptic allusions. If nothing is done, those of us in mostly sustainable, local food systems would become the target of maurading bands of former commercials, beesuited and likely tattoed with "Cook and Beals" on their forearms, driving their Hummerbee forklifts storming our honey houses, waving Apistan strips like swords...kind of like, Mad Max. 

You with me?

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Given the already reported use of illegal treatments such as Taktic, what guarantee is there that a beekeeper, with the best of intentions, claims the subsidy and goes treatment free.

But later, when he sees his hives dying, succumbs to temptation and returns to his old ways, under the table treatment.

The intention of a subsidy to arrive at a treatment free bee population is noble, but not enforceable or supervisable.

On top of what Grant has mentioned about the cost of such an exercise extending to far more industries than just the beekeepers themselves. It would impact the economy of the country.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Grant said:


> You with me?


Not really. All great empires fall. They fall because the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Or in the case of the US the middle class just becomes the poor. At some point an other empire will take over. It might be Brazil or it might be China, maybe even an united Africa. Who knows? It certainly won't be a country that can make decisions for the good of the country.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> The intention of a subsidy to arrive at a treatment free bee population is noble, but not enforceable or supervisable.


I am not saying it is the right thing to do but it certainly is enforceable and supervisable. If people in this country were starving they would do anything suggested by the government. We gave up a lot of freedoms when two buildings crumbled. If we were starving we would vote for a dictator in a heartbeat. We would give up all freedoms.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Canada! LOL


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I am not saying it is the right thing to do but it certainly is enforceable and supervisable. If people in this country were starving they would do anything suggested by the government. We gave up a lot of freedoms when two buildings crumbled. If we were starving we would vote for a dictator in a heartbeat. We would give up all freedoms.


You obviously have not been a bee inspector yet. Enforcing the law is not always as easy as is sometimes thought.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"Keyboard Beekeepers?" If you can't tell who the keyboard beekeeper in the room is ... .


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> We would give up all freedoms.


Make that "I", and count me out, thank you very much.


----------

