# Honestly, why isn't there more panic?



## bjpbike (Mar 28, 2008)

*because we are stupid*

The reason is because as a nation and a world we have become stupid. Apples, milk, vetables etc all come from a store. What in Gods earth does a stupid bee have to do with it all. Congress passes a farm bill, the democrats who are going to save us all, are still giving a majority of the money to large rich farms. Farmland in the midwest is being eaten up by developement. Law and ordinances are passed the cow farmer is bad his cows pollute the river, lets forget that the real problem is the run off from us all keeping are lawns green. I am allegic to be stings, never been stung by why take the chance. After all the city is no place for bees. You know I just bought a couple acres out in the country, opps the guy down the roads got bees, no anymore after all the counrty no place for bees. WOW talk about a rant, feel better though

bob


----------



## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Bjpbike: hit the nail in the head. A couple of years ago, at our county youth fair and we live in an agricultural area that grows produce like apples, cherries, peaches and blueberries. A questioner was given to young people, as follows 1) where do apples come form? 2) where do potatoes come form? 3) where do eggs come from? Now being form a farming area these questions should have been a no brainier, right?
Most knew where apples came from, vast majority had no idea where potatoes came from, and most did not know where eggs came form. So if kids in farm areas don’t know anything about the food supply why should we expect people that never leave the concrete jungle to?
There is an old saying, “Hunger makes the best Sauce” sooner or later people will figure it out. On a bright note, I hear more about honeybee problems form people now than ever before, so lots of people are taking notice an it’s a start.


----------



## Damien Jasper (Nov 11, 2007)

"It's a start"

Yeah but, you know; too little too late it seems.


----------



## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

There's also the point that much of our food sources in this country are refined products from plants that don't need pollination. Lots of starchy products, breads, cheese, sweets, various dairy products other than cheese, etc. The Amercan diet is, by and large, pretty unbalanced.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

_>>>from plants that don't need pollination. Lots of starchy products, breads, cheese, sweets, various dairy products other than cheese,<<<_
Don't all those dairy products come from cows...that eat alfalfa and clover....that get pollinated by bees? As it stands, most people are thinking "Well, it would be a shame if fruit went away but I will still have my meat and potatoes." When people make the jump that their steak depends on honeybees then we will be making progress.
Sheri


----------



## Damien Jasper (Nov 11, 2007)

And HERE is why when I say "more panicked here", I"m talking about this forum. I mean, "starting to make progress" once a potential crisis already hits is already too late.


----------



## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

there is no panic because there has been no appreciable effect on the average American.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Damien Jasper said:


> ...once a potential crisis already hits is already too late.


And sadly enough, that's probably what it will take to get some "real" attention on this problem. Up to this point it seems the beekeeping community has responded to the crisis at hand and pollination goes on ... not without bumps in the road, but the job gets done. Fruits and vegetables are still readily available at our grocery stores and costs are in line with other goods. 

The general public viewing this from the outside may be cynically thinking, "just another greedy group crying wolf and looking for a government handout". I'll bet that once again nothing will be "fixed" until the levee breaks.


----------



## Damien Jasper (Nov 11, 2007)

Thanks for bringing that up. I was going to move onto that. I really haven't noticed as 'shortage' per se of the fruits and veggies and so forth. Is there some other kind of inner mechanism to beekeeping or agriculture which I don't understand that's at play? Doesn't seem in fitting with supply and demand. demand for that type of food is certainly the same, but it would seem in the absence of bees, there's less supply.

On the bright side, I now know and respect what it is beekeeprs do.


----------



## Rogerio (Mar 10, 2004)

Honey bees are not native to North America, and there are numerous native pollinators. Read "The Forgotten Pollinators" by Gary Paul Nabhan and Stephen Buchman. Much as I love my bees, the world will not end if they go extinct. Because of their ability to be semi-domesticated in large colonies they form they lend themselves to Old World "totalitarian agriculture". If we had to rely on native pollinators we would have to learn how to multiculture and permaculture rather than our our current monoculture dominant form of agriculture.

Roger


----------



## HAB (May 17, 2008)

As long as food is cheep, the vast majority could care less. Remember the Dairy Crisis in the 70's until milk went up through the roof. They didn't give two hoots. Now its oil, cheep gas = more big vehicles. Now they wonder what happened.
CCD will only stir them when they see a huge increase in there daily grocery bill.


----------



## Damien Jasper (Nov 11, 2007)

But on the other hand, I have seen reports about it in USA Today. A million people buying that paper and no one's reading it?


----------



## sentientsoil (Apr 20, 2008)

Actually, there may be one definite plus. I was just reading the post "So how/why did you start beekeeping" or whatever the title is... and I noticed a number of us were first interested in bees/beekeeping because of all the news attention from CCD. Even though I don't have a hive yet myself, I count myself one of that number.  Buy my house (so I can move), and I'll buy some hives. deal?

But I agree, it's "interesting" that so many people care suddenly about global warming (and consequently, CO2, never mind all the other pollutants and environmental degradation....  ) but fail to take any real action regarding CCD, even while we're facing a rise in food costs around the world. 

huh?


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

It is difficult for people (Americans) who have never known hunger to anticipate what it would be like without a ready supply of food.

We have the same problem with fuel and energy right now here in the states. We continue to consume more and more yet refuse to build more refineries or drill for oil that is in our back yard. People will complain about the prices going up, but still won't do anything about it. It won't be till the pumps are dry that they will demand that something be done. Then we will start drilling, building new refineries, etc. but in the meantime (cause this will take years) there will be much suffering.

I pity people living in cities when those days come...they will suffer the most.


----------



## Damien Jasper (Nov 11, 2007)

I'm not sure what I was expecting, but I certainly wasn't expecting this thread to get so dark.


----------



## sentientsoil (Apr 20, 2008)

Yeah, but then again, it's always fun to speculate about the on-coming apocalypse! 

Well y'know, if we do ever lose Apis Mellifera, we could always try to import Apis Dorsata (the rock bee.) These creatures seem like loads of fun!
http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/nx/malaysia/malaysia.html

Yes yes, I know. Of course they would never survive our winters. Maybe we could let them live in ceilings of walmart and other box stores?

Anyway. we definitely could use a bit more research on ccd. tho I'm encouraged by the general take-charge culture of beekeepers in general. when less than 2% of american hives are commercial (300+) and all the others are "hobbyists" I suppose it's easier to support community actions geared toward responsible bee stewardship.


----------



## HAB (May 17, 2008)

Damien Jasper said:


> But on the other hand, I have seen reports about it in USA Today. A million people buying that paper and no one's reading it?


Reading about and caring about, two vastly different things.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

It amazes me that people think if the honeybees were all gone somehow we could start relying on domestic pollinators. If we can't keep the "easy" honeybees alive how on earth do you think we will do with these other bees? What makes anyone think we can "handle" the natives in such a way not to cause their further decline and extinction as well? 
Sheri


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

It is important to note that even with the losses that have been
experienced, no crops have gone unpollinated. What the beekeepers
hit by losses have done is scramble, which is what we have all done
since tracheal and varroa mites started making it much more difficult
to keep hives alive.

So for 20 years or more we've taken losses, sometimes massive ones,
and scrambled to make splits, borrow colonies from other beekeepers,
and otherwise "make up the difference". No one ever wants to fail to
meet a contracted pollination agreement.

The so-called "native" bees would have been utilized decades ago
if they were a practical alternative. They aren't. I wish I could 
take a Volvo wagon of Osmia to the apple orchards rather than
truckload after truckload of honeybees. Osmia don't even sting,
and done require any work at all from July through early spring,
as they die off in the July timeframe, and hatch out with the
early fruit blooms. All one need do is protect the tubes from
some parasitic wasps.

But it never works out to be as easy as one thinks. Osmia have
diseases and pests too, and every large-scale population 
every assembled has "crashed" after a few years from one problem
or another. These bees are not easy to keep in the densities 
required for crop pollination on a large-scale basis. They work
great for "home gardens", but they just don't "scale" well.

So, even with the problems, my money is still on Apis mellifera.

And why isn't there more panic? 'Cause those of us writing
about it have been careful to remind everyone to stay calm.


----------



## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> It amazes me that people think if the honeybees were all gone somehow we could start relying on domestic pollinators. If we can't keep the "easy" honeybees alive how on earth do you think we will do with these other bees? What makes anyone think we can "handle" the natives in such a way not to cause their further decline and extinction as well?
> Sheri


I have seen a number of studies out there that document a rather startling decline in other native pollinators. The studies indicate that the phenomenon is not limited to North America, but is also happening in the UK, Europe and other areas of the world. Most of the studies seem to indicate that the blame lies with us, but I can't really vouch for the validity of that.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

sentientsoil said:


> when less than 2% of american hives are commercial (300+) and all the others are "hobbyists"...


That is an interesting statistic, and hard for me to believe. Can you tell me the source, please?
Sheri


----------



## sentientsoil (Apr 20, 2008)

awcrap, I knew someone would call me on that! 

I saw it randomly while searching for Indiana regs on AFB last night, so I'm thinking I found it on in.gov in some crazy far-flung pdf file. I'll look for it when I get home from work this afternoon.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

sentientsoil said:


> awcrap, I knew someone would call me on that!


Ya can't get away with anything here, .
The statistic surprised me because I was under the impression that it was just the reverse, well, not quite _that_ skewed, but something like 3/4ths were _commercially_ kept bees.
Now, if we are talking the bee_keepers_ I could buy that, only 2% of the people owning bees having over 300 colonies.
Sheri


----------



## allrawpaul (Jun 7, 2004)

One reason there is little panic is that beekeepers are used to losing colonys to tracheals, varoa and harsh winters. With a lot of syrup, you can build up your numbers pretty fast. Many keepers lost a lot of bees while others were able to increase. Normal losses over winter are probably over 10% anyway so another 25% is not that extreme given the potential for increase. If everyone was equally effected in a dramatic way, from which they couldnt quickly recover, there would be more panic.


----------



## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

Well, there was panic a year or so ago. Then people started noticing that it seems to be (not always) the commercial units that are in California, the petri dish of beekeeping. And our own hives are still doing fine, and as Paul stated we have other more pressing issues facing them.

Oh...and with chicken little running around telling us all the bees are dying (the media), we start ignoring it (as with anything else that the media picks up on and shouts at us!).

I'm quite frankly getting sick of being asked why all the bees are dying, and long for the days when the first question asked is how many times do I get stung!.

Rick


----------



## Damien Jasper (Nov 11, 2007)

Well, I really didn't notice that much panic. It still seems to be a buried news story. First I heard about it was on the local news where the byte for it was literally 45 seconds before moving on to high school football.


----------



## Daddy's Girl (May 5, 2008)

Damien Jasper said:


> For the last year I've been reading about CCD. A lot of articles seem to quote the same statistics so much I think they're actually cut/pasting. So roughly 35% of US commercial pollinating honey bees dissappeared last year, right? And It increased this season, right? And they pollinate our food, right? And there's no sign of any turnaround in the population decline, right?


Have we seen figures for 2008 yet? It's a little hard to make judgments about what appears to be a relatively new problem. As well, SOME of the problem is as much loss of beekeepers as it is loss of the bees.



> Well then aren't we talking about SERIOUS food shortages then?


The US is experiencing a food shortage. Food shortages for us mean that we are no longer producing the massive surpluses that we traditionally do, so the glut of excess food is not available to keep prices down. Food shortages elsewhere in the world are a more product of fuels issues than bees.



> Seems this CCD thing is even bigger. Of all the reasons I hear about food price increases (biofuels, poor harvests...), no one ever mentions that not as much food can be grown unless we have more bees. But no one here seems really panicked. Shouldn't we be?


Panic will accomplish what? CCD is little understood and emotive handwringing won't get us any closer an answer. Further, there are still basic problems like varroa and all the other diseases and infestations that are just as detrimental to apiaries. 

I think that the people actually trying to do something about the apparent decline of bees are the people also doing what they can by raising bees themselves and grounding new beeks in the practice. This is the best way to assure the survival of the apiculture that is needed to keep the food chain operational.


----------



## Damien Jasper (Nov 11, 2007)

I'm not saying panic would be a good thing. I guess my wording is wrong. Shall I say, why is there not more attention? I mean, ever since "An Inconvenient Truth", global warming has been _the topic. The bee problem appears much more immediate._


----------



## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Don't all those dairy products come from cows...that eat alfalfa and clover....that get pollinated by bees?


They not infrequenly eat other silage, hay, and crops that are not pollinated by the honeybee. It depends a lot on the crops available in the area.

Keith


----------



## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> [
> Don't all those dairy products come from cows...that eat alfalfa and clover....that get pollinated by bees?


Maybe cows eat lots of alfalfa and clover in your area, but here, they eat mostly coastal bermuda hay, native grasses, and corn.


----------



## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> It amazes me that people think if the honeybees were all gone somehow we could start relying on domestic pollinators. If we can't keep the "easy" honeybees alive how on earth do you think we will do with these other bees? What makes anyone think we can "handle" the natives in such a way not to cause their further decline and extinction as well?
> Sheri


Well, as a rule, you don't "handle" native pollinators. They were already here and have adapted to their local conditions. In my garden, I have native pollinators that I wasn't aware of until I started keeping bees. Granted, honeybees are superior pollinators for cucurbit species, but others are here.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

dragonfly said:


> Maybe cows eat lots of alfalfa and clover in your area, but here, they eat mostly coastal bermuda hay, native grasses, and corn.


In this area it is clover, alfalfa (both called "hay" round here) and corn. Unfortunately we are a long way from any coast, unless Lake Superior counts.  But let's not quibble. Many animals both domesticated and non domestic depend on the "pollinated by honeybee" crops to some degree. I am not saying the world would end, but the world as we know it would, at least for a time, while we adapt to native pollinators. We would have to give up certain taken for granted crops. We would have to give up strict monoculture, at least until specialized pollinators could be researched and ready for commercial use. Not necessarily a bad thing in the long run (from the viewpoint of human food production), but thousands (millions?) would suffer during any such transition. 



dragonfly said:


> Well, as a rule, you don't "handle" native pollinators. They were already here and have adapted to their local conditions. In my garden, I have native pollinators that I wasn't aware of until I started keeping bees. Granted, honeybees are superior pollinators for cucurbit species, but others are here.


Your little garden may be a native pollinator paradise but that hardly translates into feeding the starving hoards. Not too many native pollinators thrive in New York City but those folks still need to eat. In order to place the pollinators where they are needed, you need to manage them. The garden of eden this planet may have once been has evolved way beyond backyard gardens and subsistance farming. The native pollinators may have adapted to local environments but those environments are drastically changed from the time of their evolution. Do you think a native pollinator will last through a mass pesticide spraying? Now, we pick up our bees and take them out of harms way. If you don't do that with the natives, they will die. If you do, you are "managing" them. 

The attitude that says "Owell, if the honeybees die there are lots of bees waiting to take their place" somehow misses the point, imo. We don't even _know_ all the factors threatening the honeybees. Will these same factors impact the natives? I think probably.
If the honeybees die I think the natives won't be far behind (some studies show they are way ahead of honeybees in that regard). How many native pollinators have _already_ gone the way of the dodo? 

Is it time to panic? Maybe not, but maybe time to worry. We need to pay better heed to the environment we all live in, and the interconnectedness (is that a word?) of life on this planet, from honeybees to humans. 
Sheri


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well said, Sheri

Keith, looking out from the hole in the fender.


----------



## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> In this area it is clover, alfalfa (both called "hay" round here) and corn. Unfortunately we are a long way from any coast, unless Lake Superior counts.  But let's not quibble.


You don't have to live near a coast. It's a variety of bermuda grass that grows really tall, fairly quickly, and it grows in this often drought-stricken area. Who's quibbling? What do you think grazing animals over here lived on before the importation of honeybees?


----------



## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Not too many native pollinators thrive in New York City but those folks still need to eat. In order to place the pollinators where they are needed, you need to manage them.


How many farms are in NYC? Where native pollinators are needed is in agricultural areas, not the cities. And how did people feed themselves before huge farming operations came into operation? The biggest problem I see is not the plight of the honeybee, but the fact that people have forgotten how to feed themselves. Yes, millions could potentially die. That's due to the shortsightedness of the human race, and our willingness to become ignorant of how to really take care of ourselves. The majority of people I know can't meet their own basic needs.



JohnK and Sheri said:


> . The attitude that says "Owell, if the honeybees die there are lots of bees waiting to take their place" somehow misses the point, imo. We don't even _know_ all the factors threatening the honeybees. Will these same factors impact the natives? I think probably.
> 
> Sheri


I don't know if you are inferring that that is my own attitude, but it is not at all. I don't think that other pollinators can simply step in and fill that void. If I did, I would not have started keeping bees. They do an invaluable job, but it's a possibility that they won't survive in the numbers we need. If that is the case, some of our eating habits will have to change. Aren't we, as humans, capable of adapting to our own changes? If we were not, we would not still be around. I don't like the fact that honeybee losses are huge anymore than you do, but if it happens, we have to deal with it. Can I live without squash, and pickles? Or apples and almonds? Yes I can, and you can too.


----------



## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Is it time to panic? Maybe not, but maybe time to worry.


Worry accomplishes little besides gastric ulcers and mental illness.



JohnK and Sheri said:


> We need to pay better heed to the environment we all live in, and the interconnectedness (is that a word?) of life on this planet, from honeybees to humans.
> Sheri


You're preachin to the choir here.


----------



## Rogerio (Mar 10, 2004)

*My point exactly*

Sheri says: "Do you think a native pollinator will last through a mass pesticide spraying?" 

My point exactly. Honeybees work well with our current methods of agriculture because they can be transported in large numbers to pollinate large areas that are planted in monocultures. You can provide all of the resources they need to complete their life cycle, including housing. With native pollinators all of those resources have to be present within the local environment. If we lose honeybees as viable pollinators (I doubt they'll go extinct, but migratory pollination may become a thing of the past) we will have to completely change the way we practice agriculture, which would actually be a good thing in a lot of ways. Permaculture and polycultures will become necessities rather than the domain of idealistic organic farmers. Mass spraying of pesticides and herbicides would be out the window. And BTW, if you have a strain of honeybees that can survive a mass pesticide spraying, please send a dozen queens or so to

Roger Long
General Delivery
Enterprise, OR 97828

Don't worry about a street address, the post office will notify me as soon as they get here.


----------



## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Not necessarily a bad thing in the long run (from the viewpoint of human food production), but thousands (millions?) would suffer during any such transition.


I would say the millions number is likely correct, though the basis of the modern diet is largely based on non-bee-pollinated crops like corn, rice, wheat etc.

Cheerios for everyone!

Keith


----------



## sentientsoil (Apr 20, 2008)

I agree with so much of what's already been said, I'm not sure what more can be said... How about this: Whatever the cause(s) behind CCD, it's an issue we, not just beekeepers but all of us, need to address. Because if it affects honey bees, why not all of the other bees native to north america? but then if the problem is more widespread than just north america, what are the implications? 

Basically, I believe we're just seeing one of many consequences of our collective mismanagement of the earth, writ large. Of course, we're not honeybees, and so it's harder for 6billion+ of us to collectively shephard the earth flawlessly.

Anyway.. Sheri, I found that reference, and you guessed correctly. I misquoted it. 

"An estimated 125,000 to 150,000 beekeepers in the United States operate the 2.5 million honeybee colonies (NASS, Honey Report, 2002). Less than 2 percent of these beekeepers in the United States are full-time (commercial) operators (i.e., with 300 or more bee colonies). More than 90 percent are hobbyists (i.e., with fewer than 25 bee colonies)."
Federal Register Vol 67, No 160. Page 13.
http://www.in.gov/dnr/files/beerule.pdf

Also, the numbers are from 2002, so they're a bit outdated, dontcha think?


----------



## HAB (May 17, 2008)

dragonfly said:


> Maybe cows eat lots of alfalfa and clover in your area, but here, they eat mostly coastal bermuda hay, native grasses, and corn.


We had to cut out the corn so folks would have ethanol to get to the grocery where they can happily buy beef for $6 lb of which we farmers were getting 94 cents today.


----------



## dragonfly (Jun 18, 2002)

HAB said:


> We had to cut out the corn so folks would have ethanol to get to the grocery where they can happily buy beef for $6 lb of which we farmers were getting 94 cents today.



Yep, I believe you. I bought a 50 pound bag of cracked corn last week to feed wildlife here. It was $9 plus. My wildbird habit is getting pretty expensive Fortunately, no one has figured out yet how to make gasoline from black oil sunflower seeds.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Rogererio, you make my point better than I do. 
But sorry, unfortunately I do not have honeybees that survive pesticide sprays. Fortunately we have trucks and loaders and know when to get the heck out of dodge. 



dragonfly said:


> How many farms are in NYC? Where native pollinators are needed is in agricultural areas, not the cities.


This is the point I was making in answer to your statement that native pollinators needed no management. There are millions living in cities that need food that they themselves CANNOT produce. Any pollinator for the kind of acreage needed to feed the cities must be *managed*. They cannot survive in the hostile arena of the factory farms.


dragonfly said:


> And how did people feed themselves before huge farming operations came into operation?


Before the big farm operations people lived primarily where the food was grown and ate locally. That has changed, for better or worse. Those people all moved to Chicago I think. If you are suggesting we can go back to subsistance farming, well, that is another discussion, but I will tell you straight out, I dont want to give part of my 10 acres to anyone from Chicago.. 


dragonfly said:


> The biggest problem I see is not the plight of the honeybee, but the fact that people have forgotten how to feed themselves. Yes, millions could potentially die. That's due to the shortsightedness of the human race, and our willingness to become ignorant of how to really take care of ourselves. The majority of people I know can't meet their own basic needs.


I agree with the shortsightedness part. I am not sure where you are going with the "forgotten how to feed themselves" part. Civilization developed due to farming and encouraged task specialization. I don't have to grow corn anymore in order to eat corn, and frankly I don't want to. I just need to provide a service to earn money to BUY corn. I agree that many people are out of touch with the synergies of food production and make political decisions that adversely effect agriculture. I disagree that in _our culture_ this necessarily means they cannot take care of themselves. I know plenty of farmers who are barely meeting their basic needs. I also know a few who are doing fine, who probably think orange juice comes from orange cows that . (and we live in a farming community). They will probably continue in blissful ignorance as long as their paycheck keeps coming in. Of course, if it comes to Apocalypse Now, they will be the first to starve. 


dragonfly said:


> I don't know if you are inferring that that is my own attitude, but it is not at all.


I am glad to hear that, but I was not referring to anyone in particular. 


dragonfly said:


> I don't think that other pollinators can simply step in and fill that void. ..... some of our eating habits will have to change. ....if it happens, we have to deal with it.


I think, with a different arrangement of words, this is exactly what I said, so we are in agreement. Life will go on. I think we will adapt, one way or the other, hopefully before I have to give up almonds. 


dragonfly said:


> Worry accomplishes little besides gastric ulcers and mental illness.


_That's_ what caused them, I wondered.



Keith Benson said:


> I would say the millions number is likely correct, though the basis of the modern diet is largely based on non-bee-pollinated crops like corn, rice, wheat etc.
> Cheerios for everyone!Keith


I will grant that much of what we eat does not need pollination....2/3rds I think is the ratio bandied about. So, what happens if 1/3 of our food supply disappears, or, OK, even greatly diminishes or triples in price? More cheerios indeed!! I bet the price of cheerios goes up a bunch, along with rice, wheat and corn. Something has to make up for that 1/3 of our menu we just lost. A good portion of the world is having trouble feeding itself now, what happens if the cost of doing so doubles?

But I keep coming back to the impact to the entire food chain, the entire ecosystem. Without pollinators it isn't just humans who suffer. How many species are greatly dependent on fruits that are dependent on insect pollination? Humans are not on this planet alone, no matter how we like to act like we are.
Sheri


----------



## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

HAB said:


> We had to cut out the corn so folks would have ethanol to get to the grocery where they can happily buy beef for $6 lb of which we farmers were getting 94 cents today.


GOOD POINT!


----------



## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> This is the point I was making in answer to your statement that native pollinators needed no management. There are millions living in cities that need food that they themselves CANNOT produce. Any pollinator for the kind of acreage needed to feed the cities must be managed. They cannot survive in the hostile arena of the factory farms.


Exactly. Managed honeybees are the only way to pollinate monoculture farms with thousands of acres of just one crop, and not a weed in sight. There has been some research done on encouraging native pollinators by leaving some "weedy" areas:
http://audubonmagazine.org/features0805/pollination.html


----------



## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

When I hear someone say,"I'm starving!", I look at them and say,"Your belly isn't distended and I see no flies on your face." We Americans are spoiled by the historical abundance of our food supply and our plentiful water and land. Unfortunately, land for farming is being eaten up by development, our water supply is messed up and our food supply will eventually reflect that. With the number of farmers diminishing and being concentrated in larger corporations, and our populations now urban and suburban, that has put us at the mercy of the fuel supply. Long-distance trucking has put food on our tables, in season and out. The concept of our agrarian culture is archaic. At one time the majority of our citizens were farmers and many farms had a beehive of some kind, a milk cow and a garden. My grandparents had a huge truck garden, milk cow, beef cattle, hogs, rabbits, chickens and bees, an orchard, grape vines, peanuts, sweet potatoes, cotton, blackberries, as well as corn, soybeans, tobacco, wheat and pasture. They were pretty much self-sufficient. If the average person today had to grow his own food and milk a cow twice daily, it would change a lot of things. There is a growing "back-to-the-land" trend, but very few people actually are capable of, or interested in or dedicated to, self-sufficiency. They have merely exported urban comforts to the formerly rural areas(more commuting fuel costs). And with land at a premium, it becomes more difficult for farmers(especially the traditional family farmer)to compete. Beekeeping remains an arcane anachronism for most people, so it is not perceived as a vital part of our culture or economy. Maybe if Nintendo would make a virtual "Wii" beekeeping game....


----------



## Damien Jasper (Nov 11, 2007)

I think we've run the whole "people don't understand agriculture" thing into the ground.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Damien Jasper said:


> But no one here seems really panicked. Shouldn't we be?
> 
> Marc


Maybe because no matter how many colonies have collapsed the growers are still getting the colonies that they need for pollination.

So if CCD is so bad, how come we haven't seen Beekeeper Collapse? How many beekeepers have gone out of business because of CCD? Any? None?


----------



## MichiganBee (Mar 20, 2008)

Great thread!

Should be stickied!!


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi,

I've been thinking about getting my first hive for about a year now. Most people that I mention it to have been well informed by the media about CCD. 
I think the news stories did a good job informing the public, the problem is no one knows what to do about the problem.

Dan


----------



## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Humans are not on this planet alone, no matter how we like to act like we are.
> Sheri


I agree with you 100%

Keith


----------



## Damien Jasper (Nov 11, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe because no matter how many colonies have collapsed the growers are still getting the colonies that they need for pollination.
> 
> So if CCD is so bad, how come we haven't seen Beekeeper Collapse? How many beekeepers have gone out of business because of CCD? Any? None?



That's kinda the info I'm seeking, in a roundabout way. That's what I mean when I said "Is there some mechanism in agriculture at work here that I don't understand?" because the math doesn't seem to add up.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Damien Jasper said:


> That's kinda the info I'm seeking, in a roundabout way. That's what I mean when I said "Is there some mechanism in agriculture at work here that I don't understand?" because the math doesn't seem to add up.


Neither does our reaction to the price of fuel. Notice I said fuel, not gas. I saw diesel go from $4.65 to $5.08 in just over a week. 

People will complain about the price of fuel, but we aren't seeing cut backs in driving and we haven't seen the Feds imposing 55 MPH speed limits like they did in times gone by. The price is high but there isn't any shortage, yet.


----------

