# Oxalic Acid Vaporization - Questions and Answers



## rweaver7777

snl, I've wondered about this for a while: "While OAV elevates that level, the hive returns to pre-treated levels shortly after treatment."

Does the OA crystallize inside the hive?

Can you give more information on how the hive self-cleans from a treatment?

I like the promises of OAV but still have lingering doubts like this.

THanks
Rick


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## snl

Yes, OA does crystallize inside the hive. 
In the proposed EPA registration..........the EPA states "Dietary exposure from the proposed use as in in-hive application will be indistinguishable from naturally occurring levels of oxalic acid in the hive." You can read more on the proposed registration document here: http://www.regulations.gov/#!search...EPA-HQ-OPP-2015-0043;dct=FR%2BPR%2BN%2BO%2BSR

From what I've read, the OA crystals coat the entire insides of the hive and the bees disperse it in there coming & going......
Hope that helps...


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## crofter

Have read that the microcrystals of OA in the hive interior absorb moisture from the air and dissolve into a thin acidic film.


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## rweaver7777

Thanks, that answers a couple of my questions.

My next question would be about uncapped brood and uncapped nectar (not supers, but their own feed). Is any description of whether it hurts either of these in that EPA document? Or is there another study on this subject? To me, crystallization would "significantly" increase the OA inside the hive. 

I can understand the EPA assessment if OAV is not used while supers are on.

Can you point me to any studies or documentation on what happens inside the open cells?

Thanks
Rick


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## snl

rweaver7777 said:


> Can you point me to any studies or documentation on what happens inside the open cells?
> 
> Thanks
> Rick


Rick, can't really give you what happens in open cells other than to say others have found the bees very tolerant of OAV.
Randy Oliver has some good info here: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/
Another source: http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imker...O2Yuq2Z6gpJCDeHt,f2ym162epYbg2c_JjKbNoKSn6A--

And again, not to use with supers on!


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## snl

crofter said:


> Have read that the microcrystals of OA in the hive interior absorb moisture from the air and dissolve into a thin acidic film.


Thanks Frank.......... you have a link to that?


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## mgolden

Is 37F just a guideline? Beekeepers are using OA at lower than 37F in my local and getting good results. Trying to get by with one treatment when no brood.

Interior hive temp is what's relevant, although hard to measure and varies throughout the hive. With a big population and reduced entrances, temp is warmer inside.

Applied OA with a copper pipe into a hole in a feed rim, covered with plexi glass. Have a 1/4 hole in the pipe cap so some hot air is blown through the pipe to keep OA from crystalizing in the pipe. The hot air from the copper pipe circulates the OA in the hive and eventually causes it to start to exit the bottom entrance. Time to shut the heat gun off. I applied OA vapor 3 times, 7 days apart, in mostly warmer temps.


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## crofter

snl; I did not find the article I originally read. It is readily soluble in water but whether or not it will completley liquify in air seems debateable. I do know that it is free running when first exposed to air but after exposure it becomes damp and clings together.

http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB0323998.htm This links supports that it is hygroscopic

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11757607 This link seems to indicate that it is only partly so.


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## snl

mgolden said:


> Is 37F just a guideline?


It is what is stated by ALL (that I can find) manufacturers of the vaporizers.........I would agree, that temperature of the hive is what is relevant to the vaporization process..........


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## Jerry T Indiana

What about the bees in the supers? Leave them assuming you will get them the next 2 treatments?


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## snl

Jerry T Indiana said:


> What about the bees in the supers? Leave them assuming you will get them the next 2 treatments?


That and you'll find the vast majority of mites in the brood chambers waiting to jump back into a cell to breed....


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## beepeep

Wow! Incredibly fast shipping. Ordered the Varrocleaner Tuesday afternoon and it arrived today. That is 1.5 days from SC to WA! 54-55 degrees and sunny predicted this weekend. I hope to give it a try.


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## beepeep

Vaped the OA about 4:00 PM Sunday Mar 1. Checked today about 24 hours later. And there are a lot of dead mites. I wiped the board with a handful of grass prior to the treatment. Think another dose in 2-3 weeks?


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## crofter

No;every six days for three weeks! Keeep a level of OA on the frames so wnenever the emerging bees come out with their new load of mites the treatment will be waiting. worker brood is under capping for about 13 days and drone for 16 days. You need to cover this period plus a bit of time before and after.


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## beepeep

Mites continue to drop the second 24 hour (48 hours after treatment) period. Wiped the board with a handful of grass after taking the first 24 hour board photo. All shown on the board is new. I do know there is drone brood in the lower deep above the area with the most mites dropped.


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## jeremynj

"Don't OAV the honey supers"

Why not?
I plan on OAV as soon as possible and my cluster
Is in between the brood box and their honey supper. 

I plan to OAV the honey supper and have all of that 
honey eaten/open air fed during spring.


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## snl

jeremynj said:


> "Don't OAV the honey supers"
> 
> Why not?.


Because the levels of OA that would remain in the supers have not been tested for human consumption. Let's say you do OAV today with supers on. How soon would you want to eat that honey? If you plan on feeding that honey to the bees and they eat it all that's fine.


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## Dominic

snl said:


> Because the levels of OA that would remain in the supers have not been tested for human consumption. Let's say you do OAV today with supers on. How soon would you want to eat that honey? If you plan on feeding that honey to the bees and they eat it all that's fine.


The study I've seen showed that OA treatment significantly increased OA content in honey, but that these new levels remained within the normal range of untreated honey OA content.

But OA isn't registered for use while honey supers are on, doing so is asking for a fine or lawsuit.


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## snl

Dominic said:


> But OA isn't registered for use while honey supers are on, doing so is asking for a fine or lawsuit.


It's not registered all in the U.S, but soon. Even then you won't be allowed to use it with supers on.


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## Specialkayme

snl said:


> When used as directed, OAV does not harm the queen, bees or the brood! And it does not contaminate the comb as poisons do. There are naturally occurring levels of oxalic acid in a hive. While OAV elevates that level, the hive returns to pre-treated levels shortly after treatment.


So if it doesn't contaminate comb, and OA levels return to pre-treated levels shortly after treatment, can you treat with empty supers on? Or with supers that are full, but will be eaten by bees only, with supers to be used for extraction later in the season (or next season)?


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## snl

Specialkayme said:


> So if it doesn't contaminate comb, and OA levels return to pre-treated levels shortly after treatment, can you treat with empty supers on? Or with supers that are full, but will be eaten by bees only, with supers to be used for extraction later in the season (or next season)?


The EPA (when they release OA to beekeepers) Canada, Germany and others that allow OAV say NO. You do not treat with supers on. Would you want honey from an (unwise) beekeeper who treated his hives over and over again with supers on or just treated them and extracted?

Why would you treat with empty supers?? Just remove them.......


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## Specialkayme

A) I will commonly overwinter in a deep and a medium. When spring comes around, I'll put another deep on top, and rotate the medium out, usually by putting it over an excluder to get the brood out. From then on, I'll use the medium as a normal honey super. When time comes for spring treatments, sometimes the super is full of brood, sometimes it's empty, sometimes it's halfway consumed of stores. Management wise it doesn't make sense to take all the supers off (when some are full, others empty, others halfway with brood), treat, then put all the supers back on.

It seems odd that this super, if it was on top of the hives at the time that the treatment was given, is forever banned from ever being put in rotation with normal honey extracting supers. That isn't the case with apivar, apiguard, or MAQS. I don't see what the difference is.

B) It seems to be conflicting information. If it doesn't contaminate the combs, and OA levels return to pre-treated levels shortly after treatment, I should be able to treat an empty super with zero issues. If I can't, it's either because OA levels do not return to pre-treated levels shortly after treatment, or the OA seeps into and stays in the comb, therefore contaminating it. 

Or am I missing something?


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## snl

Specialkayme said:


> Or am I missing something?


Maybe? The super is certainly not banned forever. You are just not to use OAV in the current season with the honey supers on. If you used that super previously with OAV, you're fine, use it. Just don't do OAV this year with supers on that will have honey that you will extract. I "hear" your on the conflicting information, but I'm providing you with the info I've read that says you do not use OAV with the supers on....... It is also what the EPA will state....


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## Specialkayme

I get you. I just wonder why the EPA, or others, would state not to treat with supers on. Must be a reason. . .


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## snl

Specialkayme said:


> I get you. I just wonder why the EPA, or others, would state not to treat with supers on. Must be a reason. . .


I think as I have stated below, unfortunately there are those who may over treat ...... so it's best just to say "No, don't."


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## Specialkayme

snl said:


> unfortunately there are those who may over treat ...... so it's best just to say "No, don't."


But again, if it doesn't build up in the comb, and OA levels return in a short period of time, even over treating (from the perspective of the honey and the wax) should have no ill effects. So the suggestion not to do it with honey supers on (or the "No, don't" precaution) is either based on something other than a build up in the comb or lingering effects, or is entirely baseless. Odd for the EPA to make an entirely baseless precaution . . . 

Who knows.


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## snl

Specialkayme said:


> But again, if it doesn't build up in the comb, and OA levels return in a short period of time, even over treating (from the perspective of the honey and the wax) should have no ill effects. So the suggestion not to do it with honey supers on (or the "No, don't" precaution) is either based on something other than a build up in the comb or lingering effects, or is entirely baseless. Odd for the EPA to make an entirely baseless precaution . . . Who knows.


I'm sure that OAV over applied would build up in the comb.. 

The EPA is basing their approval on Canadian and other studies and they (the Canadians and others, say NO to supers on. I think one reason more studies haven't been done is that the few that have been consistently show that the levels of oxalic acid following treatment don't rise far enough to be outside the range measured in natural, untreated hives; there's no smoking gun to imply urgency for more studies. I think, the flavor threshold will be met long before the oxalic levels would be a health issue (except when overused). I'll keep looking for other studies.........


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## Mike Gillmore

Specialkayme said:


> Odd for the EPA to make an entirely baseless precaution . . .


I would guess the warning is based on legal liability. There is always some bonehead out there who will misuse a product and sue.


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## Sasha

I think there might be two issues involved. You want certain level of fumes in your brood boxes. If you have five supers on top of brood boxes you might not have enough vapor for proper treatment. The second one could be that vapor apparently does get crystalized on the equipment meaning the boxes and frames. Which could or could not be detrimental to health of bees and beekeepers. Easier and better to treat when there are no supers, in most if not all treatments.


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## Specialkayme

snl said:


> I'll keep looking for other studies.........


I appreciate the efforts.


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## Specialkayme

Sasha said:


> You want certain level of fumes in your brood boxes. If you have five supers on top of brood boxes you might not have enough vapor for proper treatment.


Makes sense from a treatment and effectiveness standpoint. Not necessarily from a warning or "do not do" standpoint.



Sasha said:


> The second one could be that vapor apparently does get crystalized on the equipment meaning the boxes and frames.


But the information provided shows that the OAV returns to normal levels within the hive shortly after treatment. So there shouldn't be any deterimental impact on health of bee or beekeeper. Unless OAV levels didn't return to normal shortly thereafter, or the crystals that remained on the equipment lasted much longer than anticipated, meaning there was a build up on the combs.


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## Axtmann

Questions on all.

As OA is an natural ingredient in honey, what is the MRL of OA in honey? If bees bring already an overdose OA from some plants in the hive, who can proof it is from the bees and not from the beekeeper? Vegetables are food products like honey, is there an MRL on OA in vegetables, like rhubarb or spinach etc.? 

It is the same with thymol, some honey contains a high dosage of thymol without any treatments. There is also pure thyme honey available. Is there an MRL on thymol? Who can say the thymol is from the bees or from the beekeeper, especially if the beekeeper treated with natural thymol instead with synthetic? 

Is it allowed to sell pure thyme honey?


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## beekuk

....


> d) Oxalic acid was developed to the final-use stage as a drug in bees by the European Working Group for Integrated Varroa Control. In all EU countries, government approval is only given to a new veterinary medicament for use in treating animal diseases after the EMEA, the European Union’s Agency for Evaluating Medical Products, has determined the maximum residue limit (MRL) of the active ingredient allowed in the final food product according to Council Regulation (EEC) 2377/90. This procedure is meant to protect consumers from toxicologically critical residues in foods resulting from medicines used on animals. For oxalic acid no MRL was available. The MRL establishing procedure was started in cooperation with A. Imdorf (Agroscope Liebefeld-Posieux, Swiss Bee Research Centre) , J.M Poul (Agence Française de Sécurité Sanitaire des Aliments) and A. Wibbertmann (Fraunhofer Institute for Toxicology and Experimental Medicine), carried out as a joint project of many European countries and successfully finished in December 2003 : oxalic acid was listed in Annex II of Council Regulation (EEC) 2377/90 (Rademacher and Imdorf , 2004). This means that the substance is evaluated as not dangerous, and no residue limit is needed to protect the consumer. On this basis every European country can apply for approval and the Concept of Integrated Varroa Control, as recommended by the scientific institutes for bee research, can legally be implemented.[/B] It was the first time that scientific institutes and beekeeper organisations worked together on a European level to establish the legal basis for drug approval in bees.


http://www.neurobiologie.fu-berlin.de/menzel/Rademacher.html


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## Axtmann

So far, no answer about MRL on OA and thymol from the smart guys on this news group. Everybody talks how danger it is to use and the danger of the residue in honey. Where do you have your knowledge about this? Is this because .... he says and the scientists says... and they must know it? 

What's happen if a beekeepers sells honey with thymol, OA or formic in it? PPB can be detected in a good lab and is there a problem the beekeepers can run into? 

Again, they are natural parts in honey. The amount in honey is out of control from the beekeeper. Check the tests from Liebefeld, honey in non treated hives can contain a higher amount of OA than honey from treated hives. 

Vaporization of oxalic acid in a field trial with 1'509 colonies Austria 2000
The content of oxalic acid in the treated colonies was between 22,8 and 37,7 mg/kg honey (fig. 9). Each column represents the content of oxalic acid of a collective sample of at least nine honey combs
from two or three colonies. The colonies that were treated with oxalic acid on average had a lower content of oxalic acid in honey than the non-treated colonies. The vaporisation of oxalic acid, therefore seems to be completely harmless in this respect too.


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## jeremynj

2 questions. 
I am using 3/8 threaded steel rod screwed 1.5 inch into block. 
Is this wasting the heat?

At 40F, 10.5 V from battery I was close to 10 min to sublime. 
Should I mill more alum off the block for faster heat transfer?


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## beepeep

I timed the Varrocleaner when I used it. Started smoking two grams at forty seconds and was completed at two minutes. I don't have an extra battery so I pulled my riding lawnmower up behind the hive and turned it off.


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## foxC

beepeep said:


> I timed the Varrocleaner when I used it. Started smoking two grams at forty seconds and was completed at two minutes. I don't have an extra battery so I pulled my riding lawnmower up behind the hive and turned it off.


You can use the vaporizer with a six volt battery? That would make things simpler than hauling around a 12v.


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## Specialkayme

I timed it yesterday with the Varroacleaner on both my car battery, and my riding lawnmower battery. It worked on both. I tried two grams. The car battery took about 3 min to fully finish. The lawnmower battery took 3:40.


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## snl

foxC said:


> You can use the vaporizer with a six volt battery?


Sorry, no. 12 volt only......


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## gbsnplr

I was at my local beekeeping meeting and met a commercial beekeeper. We discussed OAV. I need to start by saying I have the vap and the OA and am ready to go but the beekeeper explained to me that from what he has see OAV kills the queen 40% of the time. Nothing I read on this forum states any detrimental issues on any of the bees. Now I am confused.

Also I am getting my first 2 packages of bees in April will I have a better than 50% chance if I treat them they will leave?

Thanks for all the hard work on the topic and forum.


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## snl

gbsnplr said:


> I was at my local beekeeping meeting and met a commercial beekeeper. We discussed OAV. I need to start by saying I have the vap and the OA and am ready to go but the beekeeper explained to me that from what he has see OAV kills the queen 40% of the time.


That commercial beekeeper is incorrect. He may have confused OA with formic. There are no reported instances of OAV killing the queen. Quite the contrary, there is lots of evidence that OAV does not harm the queen, bees or brood. As to your packages, I would "hive" them, wait until the queen is accepted and laying eggs, then apply the OAV. Again, can't find any evidence of the bees "leaving" after treatment with OAV. Treating packages and swarms is an excellent use of OAV as there is no brood.


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## gbsnplr

..


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## gbsnplr

Thank you snl. As I am new to beekeeping how long after I have the bees should the this process take? 

Also off the subject but I live on a farm with row crops, this year is corn are there any precautionary measures I need to take to protect my bees from the normal every day farming? Sorry to hijack the treat for this question.


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## snl

No stupid questions here. After hiving, I'd check for eggs in about 7 days. If you see them, you're fine to vaporize.... As to farming, other than you want not to have them sprayed with a pesticide, I can't think of anything....... perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I will answer.....


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## gbsnplr

Thanks again for your help.


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## Mike Gillmore

gbsnplr said:


> I live on a farm with row crops, this year is corn are there any precautionary measures I need to take to protect my bees from the normal every day farming?


That's a great question. Start a new thread in the "Bee Forum" with your question above. I'm sure you will receive a lot of responses with plenty of information to consider.


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## StoneLion

I'm a new beekeeper, this was my first winter and I am going into spring with the one hive I took into winter coming out of it strong.

Question on the OAV use... Since the treatment only hits the phoretic mites and only the ones that are on the bees inside the hive during the treatment. Would it make sense to perform the treatment at night when all of the field bees are also inside the hive? Any down side to this? In reading about this over the winter I never saw it mentioned one way or the other.

~Chris


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## snl

Late evening/early mornings (if the bees are flying) is best..............as most are inside........... No downside...


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## loghousebees

_What happens to Oxalic Acid when heated (vaporized)?
When OA reaches 215 degrees (f) the water boils off leaving anhydrous (water free) OA crystals. At 315 degrees the OA crystals start to sublime (go from a solid to a gas). At 372 degrees, OA which has not sublimed decomposes to form formic acid and carbon monoxide. Although for the last, I'm trying to find out if this will only occur under "lab conditions."_

I have seen this stated before in this forum, that oxalic acid decomposes to formic acid and carbon monoxide or C2H2O4 degrades to CH2O2 and CO. This equation doesn't balance because we are missing an oxygen somewhere. Does it maybe degrade to CH2O2 and CO2...formic acid and carbon dioxide?
I have enjoyed this information and am eager to implement OA treatments but I am still trying to learn as much about this as I can. Thanks snl for all the information.


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## Joe Nelson

Hard to get commercial guys out of their rut with traditional pesticide treatments. I like the fact that the OAV is very cheap for the effectiveness of use. Even if it requires multiple treatments to catch all of the bees in capped brood cells. Also hard for the big boys to have employees do treatments without specific labels for use and personal protective equipment.


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## snl

loghousebees said:


> _What happens to Oxalic Acid when heated (vaporized)?
> When OA reaches 215 degrees (f) the water boils off leaving anhydrous (water free) OA crystals. At 315 degrees the OA crystals start to sublime (go from a solid to a gas). At 372 degrees, OA which has not sublimed decomposes to form formic acid and carbon monoxide. Although for the last, I'm trying to find out if this will only occur under "lab conditions."_
> 
> I have seen this stated before in this forum, that oxalic acid decomposes to formic acid and carbon monoxide or C2H2O4 degrades to CH2O2 and CO. This equation doesn't balance because we are missing an oxygen somewhere. Does it maybe degrade to CH2O2 and CO2...formic acid and carbon dioxide?


I'm not sure where it does not balance, but it does decompose to formic and carbon monoxide. But with the With Varrox we keep the temperature under control and below the limit. OA will condensate as OA and efficacy of the treatment will be superior. The design of the VARROX pan is such that all the OA has evaporated well before one gets to the critical temperature. Even in the case one does not switch off the power supply after 2’30” and the pan heats to over 160 °C there is no need to worry for the efficacy since all OA has evaporated before you reach the critical temperature. Keeping the Varrox connected for a long time over the 2’30” will destroy the heating coil with time and introduce too much heat to the beehive burning bees close by.


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## Specialkayme

snl said:


> Keeping the Varrox connected for a long time over the 2’30” will destroy the heating coil with time and introduce too much heat to the beehive burning bees close by.


As was suggested by others, before I did a treatment in the hive I hooked up the Varrox to the battery and timed how long it would take to fully "cook" 2 grams. It took between 3:00 and 3:45, depending on the battery. It was my understanding that you needed to keep it plugged into the battery until all of the OA sublimes. Is that not correct? Should you unplug it at 2:30 regardless of how much of it has evaporated at that time?


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## Specialkayme

I did a treatment today, first time with OAV. While I don't know it's effectiveness, I can say it was easier than I thought it would be.

But, an issue came up while treating. I treated hive #1, then let it sit. By the time I came to hive #8, I realized that I needed to get inside hive #1 (actually had to steal some brood from the stronger hive to give it to a weaker hive). By the time I made it to hive #8 (probably 20 min or so), I know most of the OAV levels inside the hive returned to normal, so I didn't need to worry about that. But I know most of the OA was now in crystal form on equipment. Is this a concern to the beekeeper? 

Should you wait a certain amount of time after treating to go back in the hive (other than clearly giving enough time for the vapors to dissipate)?


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## Michael Bush

>>... but the beekeeper explained to me that from what he has see OAV kills the queen 40% of the time.\
>That commercial beekeeper is incorrect. He may have confused OA with formic.

I agree. I think he has formic confused with oxalic...


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## snl

Specialkayme said:


> As was suggested by others, before I did a treatment in the hive I hooked up the Varrox to the battery and timed how long it would take to fully "cook" 2 grams. It took between 3:00 and 3:45, depending on the battery. It was my understanding that you needed to keep it plugged into the battery until all of the OA sublimes. Is that not correct? Should you unplug it at 2:30 regardless of how much of it has evaporated at that time?


Ok, I've your answer from BioVet (the manufacturer of the Varrox Vaporizer)

: With a fully charged battery evaporation of two grams will be finished within 2.5 min. Either the battery power is low or the amount of OA is way too big.
Evaporating one gram takes only a very short time. If you are not sure about your power supply test evaporating one gram and measure the time. If your power supply is constantly providing a low current and you are actually using not more than 2 grams you may leave the power supply connected for a longer time until the 2 grams have evaporated. Testing with the power supply will give you the correct timing. 
With the battery charged, 12 Volts and a capacity of 45Ah 2min 30sec is enough.

Use EXACTLY one gram (1/4 TEASPOONFUL) per brood chamber. MORE IS NOT BETTER! DO NOT PACK THE SPOON. No heaping spoons, LEVEL THE SPOONFUL.


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## Specialkayme

snl said:


> Use EXACTLY one gram (1/4 TEASPOONFUL) per brood chamber. MORE IS NOT BETTER! DO NOT PACK THE SPOON. No heaping spoons, LEVEL THE SPOONFUL.


I can try it with one gram this weekend and see how long it takes.

I don't know how charged my truck battery is, but I got it about two years ago and it starts my truck every morning.


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## snl

Specialkayme said:


> Should you wait a certain amount of time after treating to go back in the hive (other than clearly giving enough time for the vapors to dissipate)?


Answer: From the Varrox Manufacturer:

The bees will carry the OA crystals out of the hive. In summer much faster than in winter. So activity of the substance is much longer in Winter (2weeks) as in Summer (days) Once the vapour has condensed and the crystals formed you may touch everything in the hive. Just use gloves not to get the OA on your skin and eventually in your mouth nose or eyes. Equipment exposed to OA can be washed easily with plenty of water and there will be no harmful residues.


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## Mike Gillmore

One more question.

If the bees don't clean things up will the OA crystals coating the inside of the hive eventually dissipate naturally, and if so, how long does that process take?


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## yousowise

Snl
How many burns can you do on a fully charged battery? Deep cycle marine battery. And what is the correct way to wire multiple vaporizer?


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## Axtmann

Mike Gillmore said:


> One more question.
> 
> If the bees don't clean things up will the OA crystals coating the inside of the hive eventually dissipate naturally, and if so, how long does that process take?


http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/files/__www.mellifera.de_engl2.pdf
Here you will find the answer.


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## BeeGhost

yousowise said:


> Snl
> How many burns can you do on a fully charged battery? Deep cycle marine battery. And what is the correct way to wire multiple vaporizer?


I use a deep cycle marine battery and have treated up to 40+ times without charging and no drop in performance. I have been changing things up a bit on application as well. I don't leave the hive sealed for the recommended 10 minutes anymore, I just close it up during the burn off and then open it up. I also leave the applicator on for 1:30 and then shut it off and leave it in the hive for an additional minute to make sure the process is done.

I like using OAV, you can really see a change in hive performance even after the first application.


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## snl

Mike Gillmore said:


> One more question.
> 
> If the bees don't clean things up will the OA crystals coating the inside of the hive eventually dissipate naturally, and if so, how long does that process take?


According to BioVet, the bees start removing the crystals after they have reformed from the vapors promptly, sometimes in a couple of days (in the summer, 2 weeks or longer in winter.) It would depend on the population of the hive as to how quickly ......


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## snl

yousowise said:


> Snl
> How many burns can you do on a fully charged battery? Deep cycle marine battery. And what is the correct way to wire multiple vaporizer?


I believe BeeGhost answered your question about battery life............. as to wiring multiple. What I did was take an extension cord and cut off the male end. I then removed the battery clips from the vaporizer and attached them to the now bare wires of the male end that I removed. Now you have an extension cord that you can attach to your battery and have a vaporizer with a plug. Attach several male electrical ends to other vaporizers .........and now you just plug them into the multiple socket extension cord receptacles and vaporize! I'm sure others will (and hopefully post) other suggestions to wiring multiple vaporizers..........


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## Rader Sidetrack

If you want to run _multiple _vaporizers from one extension cord, keep in mind that the typical 150 watt vaporizers draw about 13 amps at 12 volts. And 13 amps is about all that a "typical" household extension cord can handle. Even if you have a 12 gauge extension cord (heavy duty), the _wire _is rated for 20 amps, but that is still less than 2 * 13. 

The issue is not so much whether the overloaded cord will start a fire or not, but the overloaded cord will act as a heater and draw off some of the power intended for the vaporizers. If you are vaporizing by 'time', I expect you will need to increase the time required. Consider using _two _extension cords instead.


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## Specialkayme

Specialkayme said:


> I can try it with one gram this weekend and see how long it takes.
> 
> I don't know how charged my truck battery is, but I got it about two years ago and it starts my truck every morning.


I ran some "tests" last weekend, right before I did my second of three spring treatments. 

When vaporizing one gram, the complete time took 2:41. When doing two grams, the complete time took about 3:30 (I don't have the exact time on hand).

I haven't tested the power of my truck battery, but I have no reason to believe it's weak. 

When I went to do treatments, I have some colonies that are singles, some that are single and a half, some doubles, and two that are double and a halves (a few of my colonies have heavier carni genetics, and when spring comes you gotta give them the room or get ready to pull swarms out of trees). I'd put the appropriate "gram-age" into the vaproizer, put it into the hive, plug it up, then attach to a car battery for 3:00. Here is what I found:
1. The one gram treatments were sufficient to cook all the OA within the 3:00. The extra time spent plugged in likely just created a hotter spoon.
2. The two gram treatments were fully cooked by the time the spoon was removed from the hive. Likely the OA was not cooked within the 3:00, but since the spoon remained hot well after I unplugged it, the remaining heat was likely enough to continue to cook all of the OA.
3. Of the two double and a half colonies I had, I put 2.5 grams into the spoon (which I'm happy to say fit easily within the spoon of the Varrox). I left it plugged in for 3:00, unplugged, then let it sit for 2:00 (or so). When I pulled the vaporizer out of the hive, there was still about 0.75 grams of partially cooked OA on the spoon. With that much OA, the remaining heat it appears was not enough to continue to cook all of the OA.

I still don't believe it was a battery issue. I admit the truck battery may not be 100% charged, but it clearly isn't on it's last leg. I don't think it's reasonable to assume you use a 100% charged deep cell marine battery every time you use a vaporizer. Just unpractical. 

For me, if it's a 1 gram treatment, I'm going to leave it plugged in for 2:30. If it's a 2 gram treatment, I'm going to leave it plugged in for 3:00. If it's a 2+ gram treatment, I'm going to leave it plugged in for 4:00. It might not be what the manufacturer recommends, but it's what I know will end up cooking the OA. 

If you see anything drastic (like that much time plugged in will destroy the Varrox), let me know. Otherwise, I'll keep on keeping on.


----------



## BeeGhost

Wow, that seems like very excessive time to get a complete burn off of even 1 gram??? I use 2 grams on my double deeps and i get complete burn off in 1:30 seconds and let it sit an additional 1 minute or less to release all vapors from the pan. At the most my OAV tool is in the hive 2 1/2 minutes. I usually see the vapor coming out the crack in between the lid and hive body at about 1 minute. I also dont cool it completely down after treatment, just stick it in enough water to cover the pan and when the sizzle stops I pull it out, wipe it down, fill it and go to the next hive. I also dont leave the hive sealed up for the 10 minutes recommended, when i pull the wand out i pull the rags blocking the entrances as well, seems to be working just fine that way.


----------



## snl

Specialkayme said:


> I ran some "tests" last weekend, right before I did my second of three spring treatments.
> 
> When vaporizing one gram, the complete time took 2:41. When doing two grams, the complete time took about 3:30 (I don't have the exact time on hand).
> 
> I haven't tested the power of my truck battery, but I have no reason to believe it's weak.
> 
> When I went to do treatments, I have some colonies that are singles, some that are single and a half, some doubles, and two that are double and a halves (a few of my colonies have heavier carni genetics, and when spring comes you gotta give them the room or get ready to pull swarms out of trees). I'd put the appropriate "gram-age" into the vaproizer, put it into the hive, plug it up, then attach to a car battery for 3:00. Here is what I found:
> 1. The one gram treatments were sufficient to cook all the OA within the 3:00. The extra time spent plugged in likely just created a hotter spoon.
> 2. The two gram treatments were fully cooked by the time the spoon was removed from the hive. Likely the OA was not cooked within the 3:00, but since the spoon remained hot well after I unplugged it, the remaining heat was likely enough to continue to cook all of the OA.
> 3. Of the two double and a half colonies I had, I put 2.5 grams into the spoon (which I'm happy to say fit easily within the spoon of the Varrox). I left it plugged in for 3:00, unplugged, then let it sit for 2:00 (or so). When I pulled the vaporizer out of the hive, there was still about 0.75 grams of partially cooked OA on the spoon. With that much OA, the remaining heat it appears was not enough to continue to cook all of the OA.
> 
> I still don't believe it was a battery issue. I admit the truck battery may not be 100% charged, but it clearly isn't on it's last leg. I don't think it's reasonable to assume you use a 100% charged deep cell marine battery every time you use a vaporizer. Just unpractical.
> 
> For me, if it's a 1 gram treatment, I'm going to leave it plugged in for 2:30. If it's a 2 gram treatment, I'm going to leave it plugged in for 3:00. If it's a 2+ gram treatment, I'm going to leave it plugged in for 4:00. It might not be what the manufacturer recommends, but it's what I know will end up cooking the OA.
> 
> If you see anything drastic (like that much time plugged in will destroy the Varrox), let me know. Otherwise, I'll keep on keeping on.


Keep on, Keeping on..... if you're going past 4 minutes, I believe it's the battery ......... you're fine even up to 5.


----------



## foxC

Talk about quick shipping >insert thumbs up emoticon<. I ordered a Varrox Friday evening and at my door Monday morning. 

I read Savogran wood bleach is a source for oxalic acid. I see two types when googled, there is also Savogran black wood bleach. Is there a wrong choice between these two.


----------



## snl

foxC said:


> Talk about quick shipping >insert thumbs up emoticon<. I ordered a Varrox Friday evening and at my door Monday morning.
> 
> I read Savogran wood bleach is a source for oxalic acid. I see two types when googled, there is also Savogran black wood bleach. Is there a wrong choice between these two.


Thanks....... I don't know about the Savogran Black wood bleach (first I've seen it), but the other is just fine.


----------



## dynemd

There is no Savogran Black wood bleach, it's a misprint.


----------



## Tomson

Hi,

just placed an order with your company. I am in Southern California, we are having main flow now, bees are strong, lots of brood, have three hives that have mites in the drone cells. I want to treat to get rid of the mites. Simply asked. Running this for 3 weeks, as directed for summer (we are in the 75 -85 range), what should I be aware of for my thriving hives? I will take off honey during treatment.

Tom A - See my order


----------



## Colobee

'Same here. Adding one to the repertoire. 

SNL: PM'd order # & contact info for the refund...


----------



## foxC

Colobee said:


> 'Same here. Adding one to the repertoire.
> 
> SNL: PM'd order # & contact info for the refund...


Refund?


----------



## Tomson

Do you think that this would work? Portable Battery jumper. This is much lighter than lugging a battery around, and it claims it can jump a car battery 20 times at 400 cranking amps? I have one so I will give this a try when I get my unit. 

http://www.qualitymobilevideo.com/p...qbdpRksVslj2bm5s0bn7hb5t1s5OdO1pQahoCTiHw_wcB 

http://www.amazon.com/PowerAll-PBJS12000R-Rosso-Portable-Starter/dp/B00D42AFS8


----------



## Colobee

foxC said:


> Refund?


There was a "special" running on them through March 15th. "$35 refund" - advertised here (for BS members only)

Edit: I mispoke - it was a "one time_ discount_".

'Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## BeeAttitudes

For clarification, is the dosage relative to the brood space utilized or the brood space area available? For example, If I added a second deep to a brood box because the first deep is full and subsequently use OA to kill varroa mites.......do I treat using 1g (since the brood is utilizing 1 deep) or should I use 2g (since there are 2 deep brood boxes to treat).


----------



## bison

Tomson said:


> Do you think that this would work? Portable Battery jumper. This is much lighter than lugging a battery around, and it claims it can jump a car battery 20 times at 400 cranking amps? I have one so I will give this a try when I get my unit.
> 
> I use an equivalent from Harbor Freight to treat a few hives and it works fine. Probably not enough juice to do more than a few, but very convenient.


----------



## rweaver7777

Axtmann said:


> http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/files/__www.mellifera.de_engl2.pdf
> Here you will find the answer.


I'm sorry, I read it and I must have missed the answer about OA dissipation after deposition on the hive surfaces.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Glad you brought that up, thought it was just me.

My question is more focused on what happens to the coating of crystals naturally over time, without the help of the bees cleaning things up. 

If I treated a hive, and removed a box soon after which had all drawn empty frames in it that were coated with OA crystals, how long would it take for the crystals to dissipate if the box is just sitting in my garage? Or would it dissipate at all?


----------



## DPBsbees

BeeAttitudes said:


> For clarification, is the dosage relative to the brood space utilized or the brood space area available? For example, If I added a second deep to a brood box because the first deep is full and subsequently use OA to kill varroa mites.......do I treat using 1g (since the brood is utilizing 1 deep) or should I use 2g (since there are 2 deep brood boxes to treat).


I'm certain that it is based on volume. 2g for double deeps (or 3 mediums) and 1 g for a single. It's the area you are covering, not the number of bees for OAV.


----------



## snl

Mike Gillmore said:


> Glad you brought that up, thought it was just me.
> 
> My question is more focused on what happens to the coating of crystals naturally over time, without the help of the bees cleaning things up.
> 
> If I treated a hive, and removed a box soon after which had all drawn empty frames in it that were coated with OA crystals, how long would it take for the crystals to dissipate if the box is just sitting in my garage? Or would it dissipate at all?


Mike, we know bees will clean the reformed crystals out in days, but as to your question on empty comb, I'll check with BioVet and let you know their answer.


----------



## snl

DPBsbees said:


> I'm certain that it is based on volume. 2g for double deeps (or 3 mediums) and 1 g for a single. It's the area you are covering, not the number of bees for OAV.


Actually, it is based on both volume and space. The bees will quickly move into the second double deep (since you say the 1st is full) so you'd want to treat with 2gm.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

Thank you. 
I've never had an issue with residues, just a question out of curiosity. Something a chemist would be able to answer I guess.


----------



## snl

bison said:


> Do you think that this would work? Portable Battery jumper. This is much lighter than lugging a battery around, and it claims it can jump a car battery 20 times at 400 cranking amps? I have one so I will give this a try when I get my unit. I use an equivalent from Harbor Freight to treat a few hives and it works fine. Probably not enough juice to do more than a few, but very convenient.


I use a "jumper" for the hives that the vaporizer, even with my extension cord, just won't reach. The jumper works just fine, but each jumper is different. Mine works just fine for the few hives that I use it on, but I've never tested it to see how many it would treat....... maybe I will.


----------



## snl

Mike Gillmore said:


> Thank you.
> I've never had an issue with residues, just a question out of curiosity. Something a chemist would be able to answer I guess.


Mike,
My guess until I get an answer from BioVet is that they just remain as crystals in the hive. I've had small amount of OA sitting out in the shed, just in a pan and see nothing happening. It's does not appear to be dissipating at all.........


----------



## dudelt

I do not believe it will dissipate in any amount that you would ever notice. The vapor point is over 300 degrees so evaporation (actually sublimation) in any noticeable amount will not happen. The only way it will disappear is by blowing, taken, or washed away or getting wet and reacting with what it comes in contact with.


----------



## snl

Mike Gillmore said:


> Thank you.
> I've never had an issue with residues, just a question out of curiosity. Something a chemist would be able to answer I guess.


Mike,
Here is the answer from BioVet..........

OA is pretty stable at room temperature. The crystals will stay until they are dissolved in water or carried away. There is no significant evaporation at room temperature.

Hope that answers your question........


----------



## Mike Gillmore

It does, thank you!

That might be some of the reasoning behind why they restrict vaporizing with "supers" on the hive. If you're only treating the brood boxes, the bees will have it cleaned up fairly quickly. If supers are on the hive when treating, there is a greater risk that the acid crystals could end up in with the nectar rather than being carried out or cleaned up first.


----------



## Specialkayme

Mike Gillmore said:


> If supers are on the hive when treating, there is a greater risk that the acid crystals could end up in with the nectar rather than being carried out or cleaned up first.


That appears to be the most logical explanation I've heard of why not to treat with supers on so far.


----------



## EricConcE

Regarding the use of OAV during hot periods (mid 90s F) does anybody have experience/knowledge about the effectiveness of this method when used in 5 day intervals? (I've heard mixed opinions about OAV in hot months). I'm trying to determine if a thymol based product may be a better options during these periods. TY.


----------



## snl

OAV only requires a temp of 37f to treat. There is no upper limit. It is very effective on phoretic mites at any temperature.


----------



## ABruce

EricConcE said:


> Regarding the use of OAV during hot periods (mid 90s F) does anybody have experience/knowledge about the effectiveness of this method when used in 5 day intervals? (I've heard mixed opinions about OAV in hot months). I'm trying to determine if a thymol based product may be a better options during these periods. TY.


I treated my hives three times at 7 day intervals starting September 1 last year. We were still getting days where late afternoon temps were into the 90f. I had no issues. Seven out of seven made the winter . Some local commercial guys use Thymol in the fall, apparently believing it helps with tracial mites over the winter. They use OAC in the spring. I have talked to locals who will use it mid summer if they see a mite build up. 
I have a question as well. I am seeing lots written about do not use Oxalic acid when there is brood present. I treated with brood present , three times in three weeks using vaporization. Was I just lucky? Or are they referring to where they mix it with sugar water and dribble it on?


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## Colobee

My understanding is, it's not a "Do not use..." it's a "works best when there is no brood" . Varroa in capped brood are unaffected by the treatment, which is why you do 3x7 (or 4x5) treatments. With no brood, you can get virtually all of them with a single treatment.


----------



## snl

ABruce said:


> I have a question as well. I am seeing lots written about do not use Oxalic acid when there is brood present. I treated with brood present , three times in three weeks using vaporization. Was I just lucky? Or are they referring to where they mix it with sugar water and dribble it on?


"They" are referring to dribbling OA in syrup. OA in either form dribbling or vaporization will not kill mites in the brood.


----------



## ABruce

snl said:


> "They" are referring to dribbling OA in syrup. OA in either form dribbling or vaporization will not kill mites in the brood.


So to labour the point, I can treat with OAV anytime I want, at the worst I need to pull the honey supers, treat and replace?

thanks


----------



## snl

Basically, yes. Just know the best times to treat are in late August/ September in a series after the supers are pulled and then again between thanksgiving and Christmas.


----------



## EricConcE

ABruce said:


> I treated my hives three times at 7 day intervals starting September 1 last year... Seven out of seven made the winter


 I was leaning toward 3 treatments at 7 day intervals as well. I figured this would work very well as it covers the whole span of worker development. Does anyone feel that 3 treatments at 5 days may be more effective than 7 day intervals?


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## Mike Gillmore

EricConcE said:


> Does anyone feel that 3 treatments at 5 days may be more effective than 7 day intervals?


That's probably the most effective treatment interval. If drone brood was sealed just before the first treatment they will be emerging in about 14 days. The 15 day treatment span will cover all the bees emerging in that time span, with the shortest time period between treatments for maximum residual effectiveness of the acid. 

With that said, not everyone is able to get to their hives every 5 days, and perhaps are bound to a 7 day interval on weekends. That is also very effective. Efficacy might not be as high, but it will still take care of the mites rather well.


----------



## EricConcE

Mike Gillmore said:


> If drone brood was sealed just before the first treatment they will be emerging in about 14 days. The 15 day treatment span will cover all the bees emerging in that time span, with the shortest time period between treatments


 Very good point. It seems as though the 4th treatment wouldn't be necessary in order to have very high effectiveness - it's more of a "clean up" final treatment - for those mites emerging from worker brood?


----------



## Mike Gillmore

I think the worker bees would be covered with 3 treatments. 

The 4th treatment would treat any drones that emerged in the 5 day period "after" the 3rd treatment. That would treat all emerged drones for the entire 14 day capped period following the start of treatments. 

The residual action from the 3rd treatment would probably take care if it, but the 4th treatment would leave no question.


----------



## foxC

I read a passage in a book authored by dr.s Caron and Connor that stated oxalic acid is very deadly for bee brood. It was suggested to be used as a late season method of use once the brood rearing was completed.

Doing multiple treatments spaced at five days would get eggs and open cells at the minimum twice and drone cells maybe three times. I have not read any posts of hurting/ dying brood doing OAV so what's the deal is it safe or just recommended to use after brood rearing is completed?


----------



## crofter

foxC said:


> I read a passage in a book authored by dr.s Caron and Connor that stated oxalic acid is very deadly for bee brood. It was suggested to be used as a late season method of use once the brood rearing was completed.
> 
> Doing multiple treatments spaced at five days would get eggs and open cells at the minimum twice and drone cells maybe three times. I have not read any posts of hurting/ dying brood doing OAV so what's the deal is it safe or just recommended to use after brood rearing is completed?


Check the detail on that report. That sounds like the scenario of dribbling an oxalic acid sugar syrup onto the bees. It can do brood damage and is definitely not recommended for multiple applications but there seems NOT to be that caution when vaporizing!


----------



## foxC

crofter thanx for clearing that up. What I read did not mention vaporization.

So from what I understand, OAV can be used with multiple applications and open brood but gets optimal results with no brood.


----------



## snl

foxC said:


> So from what I understand, OAV can be used with multiple applications and open brood but gets optimal results with no brood.


That's correct. It's great for packages and swarms as they have no brood and you'll kill most if not all the mites prior to them entering brood and breeding.


----------



## IronBee

After searching endlessly online I thought I'd pop in to say that I find it somewhat odd that there are no major commercial products for OAV yet..
It seems like a ripe market for someone to get into with things just beginning to warm up? (_badum-tishh_)
To be clear, I deem "commercial" to mean not just heavy duty or robust - but also not taking 2 to 10 minutes per colony.

The only one I know of was VMvaporizer that was patented, but their website has been down for some time, and no one is responding to emails or phone calls anymore.
Even if they were though, the cost for it was expensive. _Really expensive._ Which seems silly to me considering there are those out there like LegaItaly who use a heatgun to produce the same results for 15% of the cost, with a ~15 second difference once you use two of them at the same time.

But after attempting to order through them (internationally) and not having my emails returned for weeks, I am really tempted to make my own.
If anyone is familiar with fabricating such a device with said specifications*, please feel free to offer advice, as I feel like I am stumbling into uncharted territory here.

Thanks for all the information provided in here thus far, it has been supremely helpful!

**Specs*: Plugs into a generator, reaches and holds 320-355 degrees F, contains enough OA for at least 2 dozen colonies, treats the colony in 60 sec or less (per brood chamber), can operate 8 hours a day, is not thousands of dollars.


----------



## Brad Bee

I've never treated for mites and I am going to pull the trigger on a Varrox over the weekend. Does anyone treat splits made in a queen castle with queen cell present or should I wait to treat after queen hatches?


----------



## beekuk

IronBee said:


> **Specs*: Plugs into a generator, reaches and holds 320-355 degrees F, contains enough OA for at least 2 dozen colonies, treats the colony in 60 sec or less (per brood chamber), can operate 8 hours a day, is not thousands of dollars.


 I use a sublimox, made in Italy, runs from a generator, 25 seconds per hive continuous from one hive straight to the next ,as maintains temperature with thermostat.


----------



## IronBee

beekuk said:


> I use a sublimox, made in Italy, runs from a generator, 25 seconds per hive continuous from one hive straight to the next ,as maintains temperature with thermostat.


Thanks, I have not seen that one before! I shot them an email, since there doesn't seem to be any way to purchase that thing online anywhere?

Still curious about its capacity and operating temperatures. From the video I saw it looks like it requires removing the white container that is upside down and refilling it for each colony?
And have you by any chance gauged the temperature yourself? I only ask because some forums have mentioned temps that would turn it into formic acid.


----------



## beekuk

IronBee said:


> Thanks, I have not seen that one before! I shot them an email, since there doesn't seem to be any way to purchase that thing online anywhere?
> 
> Still curious about its capacity and operating temperatures. From the video I saw it looks like it requires removing the white container that is upside down and refilling it for each colony?
> And have you by any chance gauged the temperature yourself? I only ask because some forums have mentioned temps that would turn it into formic acid.


Yes it maintains the correct temperature very accurately, and would be easy to build for a lot less money, realised after buying one to see what makes it tick, the components are available with a little searching, yes you can simply fill the ptfe cap for each treatment, do this while going from one hive to next obviously, but i have built a hopper to treat 15 with one fill, similar idea to an old black powder muzzle loading rifle flask, just press the button and a pre measured load of oxalic is dumped direct into the chamber, you could of course make this to hold as many charges of oxalic as you wanted.

I actually bought mine from a French company who are agents for them, faster service than direct from the manufacturer.http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...o-apiculture.com/fr/sublimox.html&prev=search


----------



## IronBee

Unfortunately that link says they are out of stock.. 
But I've added myself to the notification list at least.

Very interesting product. I will definitely be buying it if it becomes available.
Any tips on the hopper? Does it have to be heat resistant where it makes contact?

Thanks again for the info!


----------



## beekuk

IronBee said:


> Any tips on the hopper? Does it have to be heat resistant where it makes contact?
> 
> Thanks again for the info!


The only place it needs to be slightly heat resistant is overcome with just a short piece of heat resistant clear plastic tube, half inch ID, and a hole drilled through the existing ptfe cap to fix it into.


----------



## snl

Brad Bee said:


> Does anyone treat splits made in a queen castle with queen cell present or should I wait to treat after queen hatches?


As OAV does not harm brood (and a QC is just brood) you could do it either before or after emergence. I've use OAV with a QC present with no ill effect.


----------



## Jlberry

Does anyone know of information on whether OA, vapor or dribble, has been evaluated for wax moth? Would not expect it to have a large impact but curious whether any experience has been reported.


----------



## Jlberry

crofter said:


> Check the detail on that report. That sounds like the scenario of dribbling an oxalic acid sugar syrup onto the bees. It can do brood damage and is definitely not recommended for multiple applications but there seems NOT to be that caution when vaporizing!


I have the same book, "Honeybee Biology and Beekeeping". The reference seems to be for either method of application. In fairness, my volume is a 2013 revision. A lot has been learned about OA since the authors worked on this revision (probably 2012).


----------



## snl

Jlberry said:


> Does anyone know of information on whether OA, vapor or dribble, has been evaluated for wax moth?


I use OAV and know no effect of the OA on wax moths. I use BT for wax moths......


----------



## Moccasin

I really need to know for sure if this treatment will have any effect on tracheal mites? It seems it would because they breath it. What do you think?


----------



## snl

I have found no studies that definitively state that OAV kills tracheal mites other than those who use OAV report NO tracheal mite problems. But again, no actual study (and I've looked high and low) that confirms OAV kills T mites.


----------



## Moccasin

I've looked high and low, also, but at least you answered one of my questions, it is good to know that you know of no one having tracheal mite problems after use. Thank you very much, snl.


----------



## biggraham610

snl said:


> Sorry, no. 12 volt only......


What about a golf cart with 4 12 volt batteries in series?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Applying 48 volts to a 12 vaporizer would likely shorten the life of said vaporizer by a significant amount. 

While it is possible to connect the vaporizer to just 'one' of those 12 volt cart batteries, then you end up with unbalanced charges on the cart batteries. You might get away with that for a while, but at the risk of having to replace the set of cart batteries prematurely. If you are taking the cart to the bee yard anyway, I suggest just using the cart to carry a _separate _dedicated 12 volt battery for the vaporizer.


----------



## Jlberry

Heat generated by the vaporizer coil is a matter of resistance of the heater and supplied voltage. Seems that 48 volts would cause the heat generated to far exceed the target temperature resulting in a failed treatment. Also expect that 4X voltage would destroy the coil sooner than later.


----------



## BeeBop

On 48 volts it would draw 4 times the normal current (about 60 amps) and 16 times the normal power (about 2800 watts).
The pan would never even get hot enough to melt the OA because the heating element would burn out.


----------



## gnor

Thanks for the great info, snl. I'm a noob, but I plan to use a Fall OA treatment as part of my IPM strategy. I've had problems sourcing OA here in Canada, but lo and behold, my local drug store can order it in 100 and 500 gram units. Works out to less than .06/box.
To start with, I've seen a vaporizer built with a 12 volt beverage immersion heater that works very well. It takes around 2 minutes to vaporize a gram of OA. As I get more hives, I will probably go with something better, but for now, everything is an experiment for me.


----------



## tanksbees

You can connect the vaporizer to the golf cart. Connect it to one 12 volt battery. If you are doing multiple hives, change to a different battery each time to even out the discharge.

Also, a lot of golf carts use 6 volt batteries, not 12 volt. In which case you would connect to two in series.


----------



## mgstei1

You can always parallel off each with either clamps or drill and tap the post to accept a threaded screw and wire connector. Still be 12vdc but your ahr would go way up where more hives can be treated.
Just always use an inline fuse rated for the wire size and also the amp pull of the OAV.


----------



## gnor

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Applying 48 volts to a 12 vaporizer would likely shorten the life of said vaporizer by a significant amount.


I'm going to use the lawn tractor, since I will use it to haul the stuff anyway. I can leave it running so the battery stays charged.


----------



## tanksbees

mgstei1 said:


> You can always parallel off each with either clamps or drill and tap the post to accept a threaded screw and wire connector. Still be 12vdc but your ahr would go way up where more hives can be treated.
> Just always use an inline fuse rated for the wire size and also the amp pull of the OAV.


You would have to disconnect the batteries from one another to do this, very inconvenient.

Better to just move the clamps for the OAV from one battery to the next.


----------



## Marti

Specialkayme said:


> I ran some "tests" last weekend, right before I did my second of three spring treatments.
> 
> When vaporizing one gram, the complete time took 2:41. When doing two grams, the complete time took about 3:30 (I don't have the exact time on hand).
> 
> I haven't tested the power of my truck battery, but I have no reason to believe it's weak.
> 
> When I went to do treatments, I have some colonies that are singles, some that are single and a half, some doubles, and two that are double and a halves (a few of my colonies have heavier carni genetics, and when spring comes you gotta give them the room or get ready to pull swarms out of trees). I'd put the appropriate "gram-age" into the vaproizer, put it into the hive, plug it up, then attach to a car battery for 3:00. Here is what I found:
> 1. The one gram treatments were sufficient to cook all the OA within the 3:00. The extra time spent plugged in likely just created a hotter spoon.
> 2. The two gram treatments were fully cooked by the time the spoon was removed from the hive. Likely the OA was not cooked within the 3:00, but since the spoon remained hot well after I unplugged it, the remaining heat was likely enough to continue to cook all of the OA.
> 3. Of the two double and a half colonies I had, I put 2.5 grams into the spoon (which I'm happy to say fit easily within the spoon of the Varrox). I left it plugged in for 3:00, unplugged, then let it sit for 2:00 (or so). When I pulled the vaporizer out of the hive, there was still about 0.75 grams of partially cooked OA on the spoon. With that much OA, the remaining heat it appears was not enough to continue to cook all of the OA.
> 
> I still don't believe it was a battery issue. I admit the truck battery may not be 100% charged, but it clearly isn't on it's last leg. I don't think it's reasonable to assume you use a 100% charged deep cell marine battery every time you use a vaporizer. Just unpractical.
> 
> For me, if it's a 1 gram treatment, I'm going to leave it plugged in for 2:30. If it's a 2 gram treatment, I'm going to leave it plugged in for 3:00. If it's a 2+ gram treatment, I'm going to leave it plugged in for 4:00. It might not be what the manufacturer recommends, but it's what I know will end up cooking the OA.
> 
> If you see anything drastic (like that much time plugged in will destroy the Varrox), let me know. Otherwise, I'll keep on keeping on.


The first time I test fired the vaporizer the timing was way off just like you are saying. I then realized one spoonful equals 2 grams. Problem solved.


----------



## Marti

specialkayme
"I still don't believe it was a battery issue. I admit the truck battery may not be 100% charged, but it clearly isn't on it's last leg. I don't think it's reasonable to assume you use a 100% charged deep cell marine battery every time you use a vaporizer. Just unpractical. "

First time I test fired the vaporizer the run time was way off just like yours. I then realized one spoonful equals 2 grams. Problem solved.


----------



## mgolden

1/2 tsp is slightly over 2 grams. A teaspoonful is twice needed dosage for a double deep.


----------



## snl

Marti said:


> First time I test fired the vaporizer the run time was way off just like yours. I then realized one spoonful equals 2 grams. Problem solved.


I'm hoping you meant one _*HALF*_ a spoonful equals 2 grams


----------



## snl

Specialkayme said:


> If you see anything drastic (like that much time plugged in will destroy the Varrox), let me know. Otherwise, I'll keep on keeping on.


You could actually leave the Varrox "plugged in" or attached to a 12volt power source for 5 minutes w/o damage. However, I can't imagine a need to do so...unless you had a series of vaporizers connected to a single power source.


----------



## Marti

yes 1/2 teaspoon is slightly over 2 grams but the spoons that came with the varrox was what I was referring to. The spoons that came with the varrox...1 spoon equals approximately 2 grams. At least mine did. I even weighed them on a postal scale.


----------



## popejohnpaul2

Marti said:


> yes 1/2 teaspoon is slightly over 2 grams but the spoons that came with the varrox was what I was referring to. The spoons that came with the varrox...1 spoon equals approximately 2 grams. At least mine did. I even weighed them on a postal scale.


Aren't the spoons that come with the varrox only 1/4 teaspoon?


----------



## snl

popejohnpaul2 said:


> Aren't the spoons that come with the varrox only 1/4 teaspoon?


They are ONE gram spoons! You are to "level" the OA in the spoon, not use a "heaping" spoonful!


----------



## ljbee

150watts/12volts=12.5amps
12.5ampsx2.5min=31.25AmpMin
31.25AmpMin/60=0.521AmpHours used

That's a ballpark figure not taking into account voltage drop, extension cords, etc... I plan on using a 3 cell 2700MAH Li-Poly 12.6v battery. Should be able to do at least 4 hives on a charge and fits in your back pocket.


----------



## snl

ljbee said:


> . Should be able to do at least 4 hives on a charge and fits in your back pocket.


Let us know how that works out for you. Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## doodlebug

I was looking at Savogran at the hardware store and it is tri sodium phosphate. Is this the same as oxalic acid?


----------



## snl

doodlebug said:


> I was looking at Savogran at the hardware store and it is tri sodium phosphate. Is this the same as oxalic acid?


NO! It will say oxalic acid. Aka wood bleach.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Ok, I have read every post here.:applause:

I have also looked at the various websites selling these vaporizer's...and that includes Ebay. :applause:

Anyone have any suggestions for an under $100 version? :scratch:I see the various Oxivap versions, a $50 version from Texas, lots of versions from Ukraine [I would like to avoid purchasing from overseas], and even one from the Czech republic. Not sure which way to go on this. I am bound to a very limited budget.

The VarroVap – Oxalic Acid Vaporizer for $95 looks really nice.

What's the best bang for the buck? I am looking for _reliability, longevity, and savings_ too. Not sure if there is such a product that fits all three criteria!

I only have two hives, but would like to work my way up to 10, so I think I do not need the Maserati, Bentley, Lamborghini, Hennessey, Bugatti or Ferrari version of the vaporizer...

What version are you using and do you like it?

Finally, what would you recommend for me in my situation?

Please help me out if you can!

Thanks!


----------



## dudelt

Soarwitheagles, I bought the Varrocleaner last year and just finished this year's 3 summer treatments on 9 hives. I am very satisfied! The vaporizer will pay for itself in 2 years and the return on the investment gets better every year. I have only dealt with Oxvap.com (snl here on the forum) and would recommend them. Service is great and if you have any problems, they will get right back to you.


----------



## ljbee

ljbee said:


> 150watts/12volts=12.5amps
> 12.5ampsx2.5min=31.25AmpMin
> 31.25AmpMin/60=0.521AmpHours used
> 
> That's a ballpark figure not taking into account voltage drop, extension cords, etc... I plan on using a 3 cell 2700MAH Li-Poly 12.6v battery. Should be able to do at least 4 hives on a charge and fits in your back pocket.



Tested the Varrox with above battery. Vaporized 1 gram in exactly 2 minutes. Starting battery voltage 12.58 dipped down to 11.88 during vap and ended at 12.15 after disconnection. Recharged in 14 minutes at 1C so I only used less than 1/4 of the battery's ampacity. 

Fits in place of my oil tray.










I used it on the bees this evening and it seems to work good


----------



## MT204

I bought one of the JB200 Electric Vaporizers last year and used it with a number of different batteries.
I did some experimenting with different batteries this year and am now using a (very used) Makita 14.4 v 2.6 amp hr ni-mh pod style cordless tool battery.
It only takes 1.5 minutes to get up to full temperature and can do 7 "cycles" on a charged battery, so works fine for my 3 hives.
Small and easy to carry had some laying around already for the power tools.


----------



## Axtmann

MT204 said:


> I bought one of the JB200 Electric Vaporizers last year and used it with a number of different batteries.
> I did some experimenting with different batteries this year and am now using a (very used) Makita 14.4 v 2.6 amp hr ni-mh pod style cordless tool battery.
> It only takes 1.5 minutes to get up to full temperature and can do 7 "cycles" on a charged battery, so works fine for my 3 hives.
> Small and easy to carry had some laying around already for the power tools.


I also use the JB200 Heiliser. I had a varrox but it burned out and I could not get it repaired, the supplier told me to by a new one. OK I ordered two JB200 and I have them now for several years without any problem, heating up fast and it is easy to work with. Great unit!!
There are lots of "not so good ones" on the internet. Some are flipping sideways and spilling the acid out, especially if the handle is not in the middle of the vaporizer, and others loosing the hot pan.


----------



## Yukon-Gold

I treated my hives with OA and peaked in the hive some time after. I have seen several references to the fact that OA crystals cover the interior of the hive. I didn't see anything noticeable as far as crystals on the top of the frames or anywhere else. My question is if these crystals are generally visible and/or obvious to the naked eye? Or am I doing something wrong?


----------



## snl

Yukon-Gold said:


> I treated my hives with OA and peaked in the hive some time after. I have seen several references to the fact that OA crystals cover the interior of the hive. I didn't see anything noticeable as far as crystals on the top of the frames or anywhere else. My question is if these crystals are generally visible and/or obvious to the naked eye? Or am I doing something wrong?


Sometimes you readily see them, other times not. It depends partially on humidity as to how they reform in the hive. The bees also do a very good job of removing them quickly. The crystals are gone within days.


----------



## msc

I'm still confused by oa, I throw on a MAQS pad with two drops of HBH. Takes less than 10 seconds and I'm done. And it doesn't matter if supers are on and it's only once which cost 2.25 per hive. No batteries and no special equipment to go bad or replace. I'd rather spend more time with my family lol.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Note that _correct _use of MAQS - per the manufacturer - is _TWO _strips per hive placed in the brood area. And at least at Brushy Mtn, their best price is $105 for 50 strips. That is $4.20 per hive treatment.

Read the MAQS label / manufacturer's instructions here: http://nodglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/US-Packaging-Leaflet-REV-001.pdf


----------



## msc

Price corrected. We buy in large quantity. I only use one pad which can be done per there instructions. I didnt see a big difference using two vs one except queen will stop laying with two. As stated it works on tracheal mites and capped cells which is a big plus.....


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

With the one MAQS strip per hive treatment (option "2" in the instructions linked in my post above), the manufacturer's instructions are to continue applying new single strips every 2 to 6 weeks "throughout the beekeeping season". With either option "1" or option "2", its at least 2 MAQS strips per hive in total.

Certainly applying MAQS can be faster than vaporization, but product cost per hive is much less with oxalic acid. I can understand that for a commercial with hundreds/thousands of hives, the extra _time _for a typical vaporization treatment is not very appealing though.


----------



## gnor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY3f8BzLw-k
There are also faster vaporizers available for larger operations.


----------



## msc

If you add the cost of equipment it's not much difference. One pad works great for me. I've found no need to do more than once. Formic in my opinion has many more positives than anything on the market.


----------



## gnor

msc said:


> If you add the cost of equipment it's not much difference. One pad works great for me. I've found no need to do more than once. Formic in my opinion has many more positives than anything on the market.


Not really. You can pay off the cost of a $100 vaporizer in a few treatments. After that, treatment is just pennies per. That's a very good ROI if you ask me. MAQS is also far more temperature sensitive, and if you add in the cost of replacing the odd queen, out of pocket adds up quickly.


----------



## aunt betty

Has anyone tried using the MAQ's or formic acid when it's the right temps...and then use OA at other times? 
Seems like a two-pronged approach might work. (it's an idea)

Not treating at all myself but am sitting on the fence. Lot of T-F ppl around here they seem to do ok.
Am totally new to the pest management part of keeping bees.


----------



## DPBsbees

aunt betty said:


> Has anyone tried using the MAQ's or formic acid when it's the right temps...and then use OA at other times?
> Seems like a two-pronged approach might work. (it's an idea)
> 
> Not treating at all myself but am sitting on the fence. Lot of T-F ppl around here they seem to do ok.
> Am totally new to the pest management part of keeping bees.


That is what I do. I treat with a single MAQS strip and then OAV at other times.


----------



## DPBsbees

duplicate post.


----------



## McCoslin

snl said:


> I have found no studies that definitively state that OAV kills tracheal mites other than those who use OAV report NO tracheal mite problems. But again, no actual study (and I've looked high and low) that confirms OAV kills T mites.


I'm on my way to Lowes to buy a respirator. Ever have a whiff of OAV.... I could believe it would kill tracheal mites!!


----------



## dudelt

For me, the cost of MAQS was even higher. The unused product did not survive in a usable form over one year and putting it in the freezer for storage is not an option at my house. So instead of 10 treatments for $49.95 (not including shipping) I got 6. The OA I bought for $12.00 is still good after 1 year and 20 or so treatments have been done. So now I have spent $120 on a vaporizer and $12.00 on OA and it has cost me roughly $6.60 per treatment so far. The next 100 treatments will be free. That makes it much cheaper than MAQS. I admit, MAQS is faster but with the 6-10 hives I have at any one time, I have the time to spend vaporizing. If I had 25 or more hives, I would use neither option. I would buy formic acid in bulk and use a fume board.


----------



## kengineer

I saw somewhere about using a 12 volt coffee heater and a plumbing fitting to boil the acid. I bought one, pushed in a fitting, filled it with the oxalic powder and it works great. 

I have about 15.00 for the small bottle of oxalic acid, the 12 v heater and the plumbing fitting. It took a little hacking, but I can smoke 40 hives for 15.00.

I will buy a 12 volt battery jumper pack for about 50.00 and have a portable unit cheap. You should be able to make an extension for it and cobble a fitting into it, but it beats the unit I tried for 50.00 that did not work.

Ebay is your friend! cobbling helps!


----------



## soarwitheagles

kengineer said:


> I saw somewhere about using a 12 volt coffee heater and a plumbing fitting to boil the acid. I bought one, pushed in a fitting, filled it with the oxalic powder and it works great.
> 
> I have about 15.00 for the small bottle of oxalic acid, the 12 v heater and the plumbing fitting. It took a little hacking, but I can smoke 40 hives for 15.00.
> 
> I will buy a 12 volt battery jumper pack for about 50.00 and have a portable unit cheap. You should be able to make an extension for it and cobble a fitting into it, but it beats the unit I tried for 50.00 that did not work.
> 
> Ebay is your friend! cobbling helps!


Very encouraging post!

After waiting about a week and a half, I finally received my two 12 volt coffee heaters from China via Ebay. I am told to purchase a 3/4" copper end cap, and somehow tweak the coffee heater coil so the copper end cap will fit inside the coil.

May I ask how you set yours up?

Thank you!


----------



## ljbee

Anybody ever do 5 treatments 5 days apart?


I just completed 4 treatments 5 days apart so theoretically all the mites are dead. I'm curious to see if anymore will fall after a 5th treatment. I'm gonna do it... just one time... just to see


----------



## Billboard

They sell those coffee heaters at bed bath and beyond for $7.49 they even have the AC version too. The Oxalic acid at ace hardware for $8.00. I'll they this first if it doesn't work good then I'll think about buying a good one.


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## kengineer

Ya, the copper fitting didn't work for me. I have a metal lathe so I bought a 3/8 NPT cap for black pipe, turned it down until it fit and used that. No metal lathe? Get one, they are handy, failing to buy an expensive machine and training to use it, carry your heater into a Menards type store and find anything that will fit.

The car starting unit I bought from Walmart to use with the heater makes a great remote unit for less than $75.00 that has utility to be used for starting a tractor or car also. 

One thing I found was that the cigarette lighter adaptor could not amp the heater, so I pretend I am jumping a car and use the cables on the unit to fire it off. 750 amp unit=2.5 minutes for an empty acid cup.

Your results may vary!


----------



## snl

ljbee said:


> Anybody ever do 5 treatments 5 days apart?
> 
> 
> I just completed 4 treatments 5 days apart so theoretically all the mites are dead.


No, not ALL the mites are dead, just gt 95% if all the procedures were followed......... closed hive, hive sealed for 10 minutes thereafter......


----------



## aunt betty

The whole 4 treatments 5 days apart and they're all dead is incorrect. Think about exponential growth and decay curves and you see real quick that there is no killing that last mite. If you disagree with that then consider where five bees come back to the hive a week after your last treatment carrying a mite each. There is no true zero but if you want to believe, ok.


----------



## Billboard

I got a couple of questions. First my hive has a screened bottom board. Instead of sticking the vaporizer in the entrance hole i put it under the hive and let the fumes go up from there. Reason i ask is how do you know that your queen won't get cooked or even splattered with some acid and die? My screen is a size up from #8 hardware cloth. The holes are decent size. Then when treatment is complete slide the board in place to seal it up for 10 mins after.


----------



## ljbee

Billboard said:


> I got a couple of questions. First my hive has a screened bottom board. Instead of sticking the vaporizer in the entrance hole i put it under the hive and let the fumes go up from there. Reason i ask is how do you know that your queen won't get cooked or even splattered with some acid and die? My screen is a size up from #8 hardware cloth. The holes are decent size. Then when treatment is complete slide the board in place to seal it up for 10 mins after.



Here's a tray I made to slide in my freeman beetle trap In place of the oil tray. I bent a piece of metal as a heat shield and the bees hardly get agitated. They fan because of the heat...not the oxalic.


----------



## snl

Billboard said:


> Reason i ask is how do you know that your queen won't get cooked or even splattered with some acid and die? My screen is a size up from #8 hardware cloth. The holes are decent size. Then when treatment is complete slide the board in place to seal it up for 10 mins after.


You don't know. However, upon OAV'ing (is that a word?) for 4 plus years, it has yet to happen. Also, no one I've talked to has had it happen. 
You won't know that treating from under the SBB (not closing off the hive during treatment) is effective until you try it.


----------



## Jlberry

When you say "a size up from #8 hardware cloth"; does that mean larger or smaller openings? 
If smaller, would that present a significant heat sink, condensing or trapping vapors prematurely?


----------



## Jlberry

Thanks for the pics. I assume the fan is for circulation. Is there a test that shows the fan helps? 
Also, is it a standard computer muffin fan or a 12V fan that you found somewhere else?


----------



## Billboard

not sure but the holes are bigger closer to 1/4 inch holes.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

This guy here describes his experiences with oxalic acid as a treatment. As he found out, the oxalic acid penetrates through the feet of the mite. Doesn't matter if you dribble, vaporize (read: sublimate) or dust it. He vaporizes, because it doesn't harm the bees (unlike dribbling). 

You find pictures here in one of his reports: 
http://www.varroamilbe.ch/bericht3.pdf

There he describes what happens if oxalic acid is applied to a hive: the oxalic acid builds up at the adhesive parts of the mite's leg: the paired lobes (pulvilli). It forms a crystal there. First there is crystal growing there, the oxalic acid seems to suck something out of the mite. After three hours the mite is dead. After that the crystal seems to break down and only a small residual is remaining forming something like a drop. 

I shot myself some pictures from the mite's adhesive lobes under my microscope:


















See the lobes attached to end of the legs.









In detail.









This is where the oxalic acid (and powdered sugar) accumulates. And forms a crystal. Mites do try to shake it off, but can't.

The theory behind it is, that the adhesive lobes need to be moist in order for the mite to stick to the bee or any other smooth surface. The moisture comes through the leg of the mite, through the hemolymph of the mite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemolymph 

Through the lobes there is direct access to the mite's hemolymph and that is how the oxalic acid penetrates into the mite and kills her. 

Bees don't get harmed by vaporized or dusted oxalic acid, because they have a different mechanism at their adhesive lobes: the adhesive lobes can be shut and tucked away, and only are opened when climbing smooth surfaces, all the other time the claws are used for climbing. 

(Dribbling is different, bees eat the sugary solution and the oxalic acid harms the walls of their guts.)


----------



## Michael Bush

>(Dribbling is different, bees eat the sugary solution and the oxalic acid harms the walls of their guts.)

I does do some damage to their gut wall and any good or the microbes in their gut, but the real damage is to their Malpighian tubules which is the equivalent to our kidneys.


----------



## snl

Michael Bush said:


> I does do some damage to their gut wall and any good or the microbes in their gut, but the real damage is to their Malpighian tubules which is the equivalent to our kidneys.


Care to restate that Michael?


----------



## Ski

OK I did OAV and then sugar rolled for mite counts. If I had done nothing I would still be treating with these mite counts. Is anyone else doing sugar rolls after OAV.

Strawberry Farm Hives
Treated August – 9, 19, 24, 29 
Sugar Roll Sept 2, 2015
Hive S1 – Mite Count - 6
Hive S2 - Mite Count - 4 
Hive S3 – Mite Count - 3

Blueberry Farm
Treated Sept 8, 19, 24, 29
Sugar Roll Sept 3, 2015
Hive B1 - 3
Hive B2 - 5


----------



## Jlberry

Are you saying that OAV produced no reduction in mite count? 



Ski said:


> OK I did OAV and then sugar rolled for mite counts. If I had done nothing I would still be treating with these mite counts. Is anyone else doing sugar rolls after OAV.


----------



## Ski

No I think I killed mites. I did sticky board counts on other hives and got dead mites.
Did OAV kill enough of them? 
Is this a normal count for sugar rolls 4-5days after OAV treatments?


----------



## snl

But did you test PRIOR to treating?


----------



## gnor

If you used a 300 bee sample, 6 mites is 2/100 bees, or 2%. I think that's OK. Plus, 4-5 days after treatment, mites will have hatched from the capped brood.


----------



## Ski

snl,
No, I did not test before treating.
So maybe if tested before I treated I would have gotten 15-20 or more mites. I believe mites were killed.

However, 5-6 mites on a sugar roll is in a threshold for treating. So did I kill enough mites to let the hives go without treating with something else?
OR
would one more OAV treatment when the hive is broodless be enough?

Right now I do not feel comfortable letting the hives go without treating with something else. Planning on using MAQS next week.


----------



## irwin harlton

better take that 2% times 2 ,CAUSE THE OTHER HALF OF THE MITES ARE INSIDE THE BROOD CELLS, so actually you got 4% mites


----------



## Billboard

When the Oxalic acid reaches a temp above 375 deg. It turns into formic acid and carbon monoxide. That will kill the bees right? And once it reaches that stage does it effect the varroa mites?


----------



## snl

Billboard said:


> When the Oxalic acid reaches a temp above 375 deg. It turns into formic acid and carbon monoxide. That will kill the bees right?


No, otherwise we'd have a lot of dead bees and we don't. OA has vaporized long before that.


----------



## Billboard

So if the vaporizer goes to 400 its ok or turn it off at 350. That glow plug just keeps getting hotter and hotter


----------



## snl

How long are you vaporizing? 2.5 minutes should do it. What vaporizer are you using?


----------



## Billboard

I switched batteries cuz the car battery got well over 400 deg. I used a lawn tractor battery it kept it at 340 or so. I just let it smoke. But i did it from under the screen bottom board. I did not see much come back out from under but i also didnt see it coming out at the top. Did i screw it up?


----------



## Billboard

Im using mine, i made it. It takes around 4.5 mins its in a post under equipment


----------



## snl

Sorry BB, can't help you on your vap. I know the ones I sell only take 2.5 minutes and the OA is all vaporized in that time with a good battery. 
Do a test run outside your hive and see how long it takes to vaporize completely. Then start taking time off that. You see your vaporizer continues to heat well after disconnected from the battery.


----------



## Billboard

Ok so you just want the OA to simmer off at 315


----------



## rookie2531

Billboard said:


> I switched batteries cuz the car battery got well over 400 deg. I used a lawn tractor battery it kept it at 340 or so. I just let it smoke. But i did it from under the screen bottom board. I did not see much come back out from under but i also didnt see it coming out at the top. Did i screw it up?


You should close the ipm bottom board and slide the oav in the front entrance. Close up any top entrance and somehow close off the front entrance with a towel or something, and around the oav handle. You can quickly pull the tool out and put the towel back, but the hive should be closed off for about ten minutes. The tool should be sitting on top the screen when using.


----------



## snl

Billboard said:


> Ok so you just want the OA to simmer off at 315


No, I did not say that. Read again.


----------



## Billboard

rookie2531 said:


> You should close the ipm bottom board and slide the oav in the front entrance. Close up any top entrance and somehow close off the front entrance with a towel or something, and around the oav handle. You can quickly pull the tool out and put the towel back, but the hive should be closed off for about ten minutes. The tool should be sitting on top the screen when using.


Ok will do


----------



## snl

BB,
PM me your email address and I'll send you and up-to-date Q&A that I send with each of my vaporizers.........

Larry


----------



## snl

Ski said:


> snl,
> No, I did not test before treating.
> So maybe if tested before I treated I would have gotten 15-20 or more mites. I believe mites were killed.
> 
> However, 5-6 mites on a sugar roll is in a threshold for treating. So did I kill enough mites to let the hives go without treating with something else?
> OR
> would one more OAV treatment when the hive is broodless be enough?


Ski, I'd do one more treatment now with OAV, then another during the broodless period.


----------



## Ski

snl,
Thanks for the advice.
But I do not feel comfortable enough to only use oav on the two yards.
I will use a half dose of MAQS on the hives at the strawberry farm.
Per your advice I will do one more OAV treatment now and another when broodless on the two hives at the blueberry farm.
Hopefully all 5 hives will be alive in the spring. Again thanks for providing some direction.

Strawberry Farm Hives
Treated August – 9, 19, 24, 29 
Sugar Roll Sept 2, 2015
Hive S1 – Mite Count - 6
Hive S2 - Mite Count - 4 
Hive S3 – Mite Count - 3

Blueberry Farm
Treated Sept 8, 19, 24, 29
Sugar Roll Sept 3, 2015
Hive B1 - 3
Hive B2 - 5


----------



## gnor

Hey Ski ~
I'm reading your stuff with interest. I would have loved to know your mite count before treatment. I'm just growing a couple of nucs this year, so I haven't found any mites yet. I'll do a broodless treatment this Fall, but in future, I'll monitor mites and only treat when necessary.


----------



## gnor

> Ski, I'd do one more treatment now with OAV, then another during the broodless period.


snl, what's the ideal treatment program/interval when you have capped brood?


----------



## Ski

gnor,
Hive S1 – Mite Count - 6
Hive B2 - 5

These hives need to be treated.

I don't treat in the spring, have just been treating once a year, in the fall.
I have always done sticky board counts before treating and I have always had to treat. So the OAV was an experiment. I treated with OAV and then did mite counts. I am sure I killed mites but is it at a level where I don't need to treat. Hmmm not yet.


----------



## snl

gnor said:


> snl, what's the ideal treatment program/interval when you have capped brood?


After supers are pulled. Every 5-7 days for three treatments......


----------



## Michael Bush

>I does do some damage to their gut wall and any good or the microbes in their gut, but the real damage is to their Malpighian tubules which is the equivalent to our kidneys.

Care to restate that Michael?

Sorry the "t" got lost. Yes I will restate minus the typo pronoun:

Dribbling oxalic acid does do some damage to their gut wall and any good or the microbes in their gut, but the real damage is to their Malpighian tubules which is the equivalent to our kidneys.


----------



## Michael Bush

>BernhardHeuvel 

Thanks for the pictures. Much better than the bogus ones on the Hysler site.


----------



## Hossman

What bogus pictures are you talking about? What is the Hysler site?


----------



## Michael Bush

http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/index.html

I mispelled it I guess. Heilyser. They used to have two identical pictures of a Varroa mite except one had obviously been photoshopped to look like it's legs had partially dissolved by the acid. Everything else in the photos were identical. Obviously Oxalic acid vaporization DOES kill Varroa mites, and their product works fine, but those two pictures were obviously fake. I don't see those photos on the site anymore. I appreciate seeing a real photo.


----------



## Robbin

snl said:


> Ski, I'd do one more treatment now with OAV, then another during the broodless period.


+1 You really need to treat at least 3 times in a row, 7 days apart. The only exception to this would be when the hive is broodless, and then I'd treat twice just to be sure.

I don't like the sugar rolls, I prefer drop counts. You are unsure because you are not SEEING the number of mites being killed. Put a sticky board in the day before you treat, 
look at it before you treat, treat, then check it two days later. When you see thousands of dead mites on the second day, your confidence level will go way up.
Repeat in 7 days and you'll see the same results, just much fewer mites, repeat again in 7 days, again, much fewer mites. I stopped treating more than 3 times because 
the return on investment had fallen from thousands to less than 50.


----------



## Robbin

Billboard said:


> When the Oxalic acid reaches a temp above 375 deg. It turns into formic acid and carbon monoxide. That will kill the bees right? And once it reaches that stage does it effect the varroa mites?


Hi Billboard, you really can't overheat the OA unless you have a flame thrower for a vaporizer. The OA vaporizes very quickly once you get the vaporizer hot enough. Watch it and use a stop watch, when it's all gone, stop the watch and cut it off. Then use the timer to know when to turn the unit off. The OA vaporizes as the unit passes thru the required temp, and is long gone BEFORE the unit can overheat.
So don't worry about the max temp the vaporizer can reach, because the OA won't be there when it does. Simply do it with a stop watch, and go back to your strong battery so it doesn't take so long to do each hive. I've got 4 units, they all vary a little bit on how long it takes, I use the two identical ones so I can set up the next hive while the first is cooking.
good luck with your bees!


----------



## jwcarlson

Robbin said:


> Hi Billboard, you really can't overheat the OA unless you have a flame thrower for a vaporizer.


While using a torch, I am about 95% positive I wasted many hours and dollars of gas and goodwill from my wife treating colonies with my copper pipe setup. In the meantime treating made me less likely to open the colonies and that lead to a couple late swarms and also lead to me not seeing that the mite infestations were still running away as fast as they could despite my treatments. Now I guess a torch may fit your definition of "flame thrower"... but to say that you really can't overheat it is, I believe, in accurate. It's very EASY to overheat it with a DIY device of unknown design. Very hard to overheat with the commercially tried and tested varieties. Of course if you're copying a glowplug model and making it yourself with the same components, it isn't rocket science and it should work just fine.

The copper pipe/tweaker method really put me behind the 8-ball this late summer/fall.


----------



## Hossman

Pretty petty. Those _were_ great photos posted by BernhardHeuvel though...


----------



## Robbin

Actually, I was relaying what one of the manufactures told me about their testing of the OA vaporizer they where selling. But the bottom line is, is just about impossible to overheat the OA with a battery operated heating element. All bets are off if you are using a real live torch. Sorry JW's didn't work, it would be nice if it only took 30 seconds a hive. I found it a lot better when I got a second unit, so I could pass the time required to vaporize by preparing the next hive.


----------



## Robbin

Billboard said:


> I got a couple of questions. First my hive has a screened bottom board. Instead of sticking the vaporizer in the entrance hole i put it under the hive and let the fumes go up from there. Reason i ask is how do you know that your queen won't get cooked or even splattered with some acid and die? My screen is a size up from #8 hardware cloth. The holes are decent size. Then when treatment is complete slide the board in place to seal it up for 10 mins after.


I've treated with SBB open and it was very effective. Probably not as effective as it might have been when it's closed off. But heat rises and my drop board was covered with mites two days later.


----------



## aunt betty

Played around with the "tweaker" method. (good name)
Never used it in a hive but tested it outdoors on a table with a fan to see the vapors and what happened.

It left a white stain of crystals where the gas exited the copper pipe.
Was as if a highway flare sat there a second.
The duration of the gas was less than 10 seconds.

I do not treat but have toyed with the idea obviously.


----------



## jwcarlson

aunt betty, you can feather the heat with a torch... but it will not be consistent as it is with an appliance. You have to evenly heat the entire pipe as best you can... which means you're going to toast woodenware unless you protect with metal and are very careful. 

Those crystals at end of pipe indicate you didn't have a good heat soak in the whole thing. I actually start heating above the crystals then back and forth on the whole thing.

But again... it's inconsistent and not worth hoping you did a good enough job. I thought it was so much more efficient than an appliance... until I bought an appliance from SNL and realized that I could Ron Popeil it ("Set it and Forget it!" Showtime Rotisserie style). Treating cluster of four hives I pick the one I don't want to inspect, treat it first. Start timer on my phone, it goes off I go over and unhook then finish inspecting while it settles in for a few minutes. Pull the vaporizer, but leave entrance closed with old t-shirt then on to the next. The only real "downtime" is on that last colony you treat you need to goof a round waiting for vapors and what not to settle in before opening back up. I clean up everything and take it to the truck during this time and then carry the vaporizer back by itself after I'm done.

Works pretty well.


----------



## rookie2531

jwcarlson said:


> The copper pipe/tweaker method really put me behind the 8-ball this late summer/fall.


I tried the (crack pipe) method as that was what it was called last year. 
I built a small super and covered the top with plexi-glass. That way I could see what was going on at the end of the pipe and get a consistent burn. I never could get it. One burn would be o.k. and the next ten tries would burn up. What a pain. I wished there were more negative comments about that method being almost impossible, maybe I would have skipped it. It sucks.


----------



## missybee

I bought one from snl, it works perfectly.


----------



## Michael Bush

>Pretty petty.

If they weren't passing the pictures off as real, maybe.


----------



## aunt betty

jwcarlson said:


> aunt betty, you can feather the heat with a torch... but it will not be consistent as it is with an appliance. You have to evenly heat the entire pipe as best you can... which means you're going to toast woodenware unless you protect with metal and are very careful.
> 
> Those crystals at end of pipe indicate you didn't have a good heat soak in the whole thing. I actually start heating above the crystals then back and forth on the whole thing.
> 
> But again... it's inconsistent and not worth hoping you did a good enough job. I thought it was so much more efficient than an appliance... until I bought an appliance from SNL and realized that I could Ron Popeil it ("Set it and Forget it!" Showtime Rotisserie style). Treating cluster of four hives I pick the one I don't want to inspect, treat it first. Start timer on my phone, it goes off I go over and unhook then finish inspecting while it settles in for a few minutes. Pull the vaporizer, but leave entrance closed with old t-shirt then on to the next. The only real "downtime" is on that last colony you treat you need to goof a round waiting for vapors and what not to settle in before opening back up. I clean up everything and take it to the truck during this time and then carry the vaporizer back by itself after I'm done.
> 
> Works pretty well.


I table-tested and put the thing up in the "stuff that I made that don't work" bucket. 
The wood bleach is in the bucket too.


----------



## jwcarlson

OAV certainly works! I wouldn't put the wood bleach it in the garbage heap just yet. 
The crack pipe method however... my experience shadows that of the ones above. Just too inconsistent to rely on it. I did get a good burn last winter after not treating during year 1 until January. It rained mites:



That doesn't count all the ones that fell off of my homemade sticky board in the wind. Which was a lot.


----------



## missybee

This is a ? I have about oav treatment. We have done three treatments now, mite drop horrendous. Per all I have read we did the treatments 6-7 days apart to catch the hatching brood. 

We have to leave town, will be back after hard frost. Our house sitters take care of everything except the bees.

I am thinking when we get back, the hard frost has happened, the bees are clustered, that we should do one more, now broodless, treatment. 

How much oa should you use? One scoop since they are now clustered or two scoops?

The pictures were 24 hours after the second treatment, we just now did the third.


----------



## Robbin

missybee said:


> This is a ? I have about oav treatment. We have done three treatments now, mite drop horrendous. Per all I have read we did the treatments 6-7 days apart to catch the hatching brood.
> 
> We have to leave town, will be back after hard frost. Our house sitters take care of everything except the bees.
> 
> I am thinking when we get back, the hard frost has happened, the bees are clustered, that we should do one more, now broodless, treatment.
> 
> How much oa should you use? One scoop since they are now clustered or two scoops?
> 
> The pictures were 24 hours after the second treatment, we just now did the third.
> View attachment 21210
> View attachment 21211


I don't think you are suppose to use OAV when the bees are clustered. But I would think you'll get some fly days before it's always so cold they will stay clustered. If you get any days above 50 they should fly, and you can use OAV. You should always use the same amount of OA. I have not seen any recommendations for changing the amount of OA. I wouldn't worry about it if you can't, your drop counts have really reduced their mite load. My only thought is that it would have been better to have done a full treatment sooner so the hive has more time to recover from the mite load. The damage they do to bees stays even after the mites are gone.
It's the new generations that really reap the benefits of being mite free. Of course you get the best control when the hive is broodless, and that starts you hive out with few mites the next spring.

Good luck


----------



## missybee

It took us some time to get going on it, then went to a meeting where we were told it was the worse thing to do, dangerous etc. So did more research on it and decided the speaker was wrong, as long as you wear protection you can't really be harmed. 

In all my research it is stated to treat them with oav after the first hard frost, 3 weeks after. By then any brood is gone, the bees are clustered. As long as it is above 40f and before the end of December when they begin to brood again.

I know we should have been treating earlier. We are going to do better drone cutting out better next spring. 

I read that the oa dribble can also harm the bees, so I did not want to do that. 

We are low on the learning curve at having bees, this is our second summer, second winter coming up.


http://beekeepingnaturally.co.uk/tag/winter/#.VgQnzGtWnUU
Oxalic Acid Vaporization

The “Drizzle” and “Spray” methods of application use oxalic acid disolved in sugar syrup, which the bees then ingest. “vaporisation” involves heating up a small amount of oxalic acid dihyrate within the hive using a special device. The oxalic acid dihyrate first liquifies and then becomes a gaseous vapor which permeates the whole hive. The vapor quickly re-crystalises on all the inner surfaces of the hive and the bees as a fine coating of oxalic acid crystals. These crystals are deady to mites. In a heavily infested hive you can expect a drop of over 1000 mites in the first 24hr, but the treatment will remain effective for up to a week and you will see a continued but diminishing drop over the next few days.

Generally this treatment is best done when there is little or no brood because it is only really effective on varroa in the “phoretic” state (on the bees). Varroa in with the brood are generally protected from the effects of the treatment. If there is brood present then repeat treatments are possible to cover the complete bee cycle. Generally one a week for 3-4 weeks should do it. The best time to do a single deadly treatment is between Christmas & New Year when most hives have the least amount of brood and the mites are exposed.


----------



## Robbin

missybee said:


> It took us some time to get going on it, then went to a meeting where we were told it was the worse thing to do, dangerous etc. So did more research on it and decided the speaker was wrong, as long as you wear protection you can't really be harmed.
> 
> In all my research it is stated to treat them with oav after the first hard frost, 3 weeks after. By then any brood is gone, the bees are clustered. As long as it is above 40f and before the end of December when they begin to brood again.
> 
> I know we should have been treating earlier. We are going to do better drone cutting out better next spring.
> 
> I read that the oa dribble can also harm the bees, so I did not want to do that.
> 
> We are low on the learning curve at having bees, this is our second summer, second winter coming up.
> 
> 
> http://beekeepingnaturally.co.uk/tag/winter/#.VgQnzGtWnUU
> Oxalic Acid Vaporization
> 
> The “Drizzle” and “Spray” methods of application use oxalic acid disolved in sugar syrup, which the bees then ingest. “vaporisation” involves heating up a small amount of oxalic acid dihyrate within the hive using a special device. The oxalic acid dihyrate first liquifies and then becomes a gaseous vapor which permeates the whole hive. The vapor quickly re-crystalises on all the inner surfaces of the hive and the bees as a fine coating of oxalic acid crystals. These crystals are deady to mites. In a heavily infested hive you can expect a drop of over 1000 mites in the first 24hr, but the treatment will remain effective for up to a week and you will see a continued but diminishing drop over the next few days.
> 
> Generally this treatment is best done when there is little or no brood because it is only really effective on varroa in the “phoretic” state (on the bees). Varroa in with the brood are generally protected from the effects of the treatment. If there is brood present then repeat treatments are possible to cover the complete bee cycle. Generally one a week for 3-4 weeks should do it. The best time to do a single deadly treatment is between Christmas & New Year when most hives have the least amount of brood and the mites are exposed.



I think it's fine to treat them after a hard frost, but again, I don't think you can treat them when they are clustered. It needs to be warm enough that the vapors can reach the individual bees. Bee's in a cluster would make it very hard for the treatment to reach bees that weren't on the outside layer of the cluster. It simply can't be very effective. I think your quote about Christmas and Newyear depends on where you live. 
In Florida, maybe, up north, I certainly wouldn't wait until then. Pick a good fly day and treat them. I usually do my final treatments around thanksgiving and I'm in the panhandle of Florida.


----------



## Axtmann

Robbin said:


> I think it's fine to treat them after a hard frost, but again, I don't think you can treat them when they are clustered. It needs to be warm enough that the vapors can reach the individual bees. Bee's in a cluster would make it very hard for the treatment to reach bees that weren't on the outside layer of the cluster. It simply can't be very effective. I think your quote about Christmas and Newyear depends on where you live.
> In Florida, maybe, up north, I certainly wouldn't wait until then. Pick a good fly day and treat them. I usually do my final treatments around thanksgiving and I'm in the panhandle of Florida.


The outside layer of the cluster get covert with OA fog, but how can this bees survive the winter? They have to go inside the cluster to warm up and the fine acid in the hair of the bees is every ware in a few days. Don't treat if temperatures are below freezing, when it get warm inside the hive from the vaporizer, some bees might go away from the cluster and not coming back if it gets cold again after you take the vaporizer out.


----------



## gnor

missybee said:


> We are going to do better drone cutting out better next spring.


I'm using the Randy Oliver style drone traps, and I put them in when I hived up my nucs, just to see what would happen. Even though it was past swarm season, the girls built up drone comb in the foundationless part and backfilled it with honey.
I think it's really important to have the mites under control by August at the latest. Low mite levels at that time give the girls a while to get any viruses under control before the last generation of bees hatch, because these are the girls that have to live 4-5 months through the Winter. I want them to be as healthy and well nourished as possible.
I test early and often, but treat only when I need to. Next year, I plan to do a sugar roll, then an alcohol wash with the same bees, then do a bee by bee count. After that, I will have an accurate count of how many bees are in 1/2 cup, as well as an accurate baseline going forward with sugar roll testing.


----------



## missybee

We did the alcohol wash, got one mite with a 1/2 cup of bees. 

I knew from some drone brood cut outs that there were mites, so we decided to treat. I am glad we did , there were a ton more mites than the wash suggested. We put in foundation less and cut foundation frames, the girls filled them with drone brood, that we cut out and checked, this was spring early summer. We did see mites. 

One thing I have not seen on any bees is the curled wings, the crawlers, etc. 

I know we are behind, but at least we are treating, next year we will do better. 

Here we can have flying weather until December. We hope to be back before then. Last fall they flew until December, were out of food by mid January, when they finally clustered. All that flying made them hungry.

The house sitters have to go back to their own home in January.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Quick question if you do not mind...

We did our very first Oxalic Acid Vaporization this evening. After sealing the hive we applied the treatment. Then waited a full 10 minutes.

When I checked the SBB immediately after removing the device, I only counted two mites.

So, here is my question: 

How long does it take for the Oxalic Acid Vaporization to kill the mites?

Does it take minutes? Hours? Days?

Just trying to figure out how it works.

Thanks,

Soar


----------



## BeeBop

Days. 
Biggest mite drop will probably be day 2.

OAV'd my hives again this evening...


----------



## soarwitheagles

BeeBop said:


> Days.
> Biggest mite drop will probably be day 2.
> 
> OAV'd my hives again this evening...


Thanks BeeBop!

How's life up in Sonoma?

Here, still had 98 degrees today...whew, old man summer just ain't ready to give up the ghost!


----------



## beepro

My first day drop has the highest count. 
I really don't count them one by one. Just look
at the bottom board to see them there.


----------



## soarwitheagles

beepro said:


> My first day drop has the highest count.
> I really don't count them one by one. Just look
> at the bottom board to see them there.


Ok, I will check it tomorrow afternoon. Are you vaporizing every 5 days?


----------



## beepro

I do my hive inspection very closely at the Fall and Spring time.
This is the time when the young queens are the most active in laying.
I only treat when necessary to not interrupt the hive that much. So it is 
not on a schedule but on an as needed basis depending on the infestation level.
Each hive is different so I treat them accordingly. Some I treat and some I don't because
I need to have some in there to test out my home-made oav gadgets since we can keep bees
here all year long.


----------



## Robbin

BeeBop said:


> Days.
> Biggest mite drop will probably be day 2.
> 
> OAV'd my hives again this evening...


+1 on the biggest drop being day 2, I've counted 5 days before, the numbers fall dramatically on the 4th and 5th day. You will also notice that the second and third treatments the counts fall because the mite load is reduced with each treatment. Once you've done this a few times, you'll probably stop counting. It's additional work you don't need to do once you trust that you are doing it right and making a real impact. I don't count at all anymore, and treat on a schedule. One set in the dearth when the supers come off, another in late fall going into winter.


----------



## Robbin

soarwitheagles said:


> Ok, I will check it tomorrow afternoon. Are you vaporizing every 5 days?


I vaporize every 7 days, typically because I can only treat on weekends, I also found that I still had mites falling on day 5 back when I counted for 5 days. I usually only do 3 treatments, 7 days gives me 14 days till the last treatment from the first. 5 only gives you 10 days, and that's only half a brood cycle. if you go with 5, I'd go with 4 treatments. I've done as many as 5 treatments and counted 5 days on all of them. But the mite kill after the third treatment is small. Diminishing returns for the level of effort. So I usually stop at three, thou I sometimes do 4 when the weather is really nice in the fall.

Nice thing about OAV and sticky boards, you can SEE it work...
good luck


----------



## snl

soarwitheagles said:


> Quick question if you do not mind...
> 
> We did our very first Oxalic Acid Vaporization this evening. After sealing the hive we applied the treatment. Then waited a full 10 minutes.
> 
> When I checked the SBB immediately after removing the device, I only counted two mites.
> 
> So, here is my question:
> 
> How long does it take for the Oxalic Acid Vaporization to kill the mites?
> 
> Does it take minutes? Hours? Days?
> 
> Just trying to figure out how it works.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Soar


Hi Soar, 
Did you not get a directions with the Vap on its use and how and when it works?


----------



## soarwitheagles

snl said:


> Hi Soar,
> Did you not get a directions with the Vap on its use and how and when it works?


snl,

No, no instructions were included....I finally decided to go with the Czech version on Ebay. It vaporizes a half gram in 90 seconds...

Here is what I did:

I removed the sticky board. I cut a 20 gauge piece of sheet metal the same size. I inserted the 20 gauge piece of sheet metal where the sticky board normally goes. Next, I inserted the filled vaporizer and placed a towel around the opening. Finally hit the switch for 90 seconds. Saw a very small amount of vapors escape the hive. Then waited a full ten minutes before removing the vaporizer.

Did I do it right? 

Do you see anything else I should do?

Thanks!


----------



## snl

soarwitheagles said:


> Finally hit the switch for 90 seconds. Saw a very small amount of vapors escape the hive. Then waited a full ten minutes before removing the vaporizer.


Did all the OA vaporize?

Why did you only use 1/2 gram? OAV is one gram per brood chamber...


----------



## JRG13

Might not see a huge drop since they just got apivar a few weeks ago.


----------



## soarwitheagles

snl said:


> Did all the OA vaporize?
> 
> Why did you only use 1/2 gram? OAV is one gram per brood chamber...


Oh my...perhaps I misread the amount. I thought people are recommending 1/2 teaspoon? That is what I did, and yes, I tested it first away from a beehive to see how it worked. Literally nothing left except some type of weird super light weight ash like substance...



JRG13 said:


> Might not see a huge drop since they just got apivar a few weeks ago.


Hi JRG! How are you? Thanks again for helping with the apivar. You know, that apivar did a number on the mites...as in hundreds upon hundreds of dead mites for weeks. Strange thing now, the new hive that you split for us has literally no mites at all, but the old hive is still showing substantial numbers of dead mites. That is why I decided to try the vaporizer on them...

I checked again this afternoon and found about 50 dead mites in the older hive.


----------



## cata_rebel

How are you guys treated 3 deps??
I have heyliser vaporizer according whit grams I should used 3 grams but my vaporizer is not holding more the 2gram at the time even whit 2 grams when is boiling to transform in fume is get out of the tray


----------



## soarwitheagles

Update: 200+ dead mites on the sticky bottom board today....that is two days after giving the treatment. 

Wow! Oxalic Acid Vaporization really does work! Yeah!


----------



## JRG13

Dead mites make me smile!


----------



## snl

soarwitheagles said:


> Wow! Oxalic Acid Vaporization really does work! Yeah!


Was there any doubt? :applause:


----------



## soarwitheagles

JRG13 said:


> Dead mites make me smile!


Me too JRG! BTW, how's your hives doing and will you treat with the OA vaporizer?



snl said:


> Was there any doubt? :applause:


 Well, to be honest with you snl, I suppose I always have a tiny bit of doubt, even after reading hundreds of posts...I do not mean to be a doubting Thomas [seeing is believing], but often times, for me, seeing IS believing! The good news is, now, I have seen, and now I believe!


----------



## beepro

snl said:


> Was there any doubt? :applause:


Soar, being an El Cheapo beekeeper that like to do my little bee experiments, I have posted about my latest invention of 
a stationary expanded (powerful) coverage oav treatment gadget that anybody can make using the everyday household
materials around. The parts without the substitute you can buy for cheap either locally or on the net. There
are many advantage of using it. Besides inexpensive to make it does not burn up your hive. No wires and heavy battery are
needed. And portable with commercial application too when someone further improved on it.
So hopefully yours will not burn up your hive or frames like the other posts here that I
have read. Mine will never burn up the frames because it is an external unit under the hive. Because of the expanded
coverage capability on the V1 and V2 now, my trial tests went very well with 2 deep hives. With continuous improvement I'm on the V3 (third version)
now. This time paying attention to the materials (more universal) that everybody can get in their local area. All are possible because someone here dare to make
a challenge of who can make the easiest and cheapest workable oav unit out there.
If you still have any doubts then look up this vid of the V1 gadget: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D2vLtiF2fI
OT said he can download the vid and view it later on without signing in as a member.


----------



## jmgi

Just wondering if anyone has heard of a better way to deliver OA vaporization into a hive any quicker than using the battery operated vaporizer? Right now, doing it according to directions, it takes about 10 minutes per hive roughly. When you have 100 hives it gets into lots of time, because you need to do three separate treatments in the fall. Just seems like somebody must be working on a way to speed it up.


----------



## BeeGhost

There are other options, but you have to drag around an air compressor, generator and a $3000 vaporizer. I don't take more than maybe 3 minutes per hive with the H-model vaporizer. That's loading it, inserting it, turning it on for 1 1/2 minutes and letting it sit for an additional 30 seconds. I don't keep the hive closed up for 10 minutes after treatment and have not found a difference in mite loads yet. 

You would be money ahead to run a couple wands at a time even using separate batteries. I can treat 40+ hives without my deep cycle marine battery even taking a large hit. If you have 100 hives you should be able to treat them all in 3 1/2 hours running two wand style burners at 4 minutes per hive. So about 11 hours for a three week treatment on 100 hives. Or you could just go with Apivar for a total cost of just over $500 for a one time application.


----------



## Robbin

ljbee said:


> Anybody ever do 5 treatments 5 days apart?
> 
> 
> I just completed 4 treatments 5 days apart so theoretically all the mites are dead. I'm curious to see if anymore will fall after a 5th treatment. I'm gonna do it... just one time... just to see


I have, and did count's on the all, I don't remember the counts, but they fell so far after the 3rd treatment that I went to 3 7 day treatments and I don't count mites anymore...


----------



## Robbin

soarwitheagles said:


> Ok, I have read every post here.:applause:
> 
> I have also looked at the various websites selling these vaporizer's...and that includes Ebay. :applause:
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions for an under $100 version? :scratch:I see the various Oxivap versions, a $50 version from Texas, lots of versions from Ukraine [I would like to avoid purchasing from overseas], and even one from the Czech republic. Not sure which way to go on this. I am bound to a very limited budget.
> 
> The VarroVap – Oxalic Acid Vaporizer for $95 looks really nice.
> 
> What's the best bang for the buck? I am looking for _reliability, longevity, and savings_ too. Not sure if there is such a product that fits all three criteria!
> 
> I only have two hives, but would like to work my way up to 10, so I think I do not need the Maserati, Bentley, Lamborghini, Hennessey, Bugatti or Ferrari version of the vaporizer...
> 
> What version are you using and do you like it?
> 
> Finally, what would you recommend for me in my situation?
> 
> Please help me out if you can!
> 
> Thanks!


Hi SoarwithEagles,

I didn't see anybody else make a recommendation so I will.

I have the Heilyser, varroacleaner and two varrox. The varrox is the most expensive and the best bang for the buck. That's why I have two of those.
Much better made, much more durable. I've seen reports of the others causing fires when the short, I can't see how the varrox could short out. 
Anyway, I've got experience with 3 different versions and the Varrox is the hands down winner for me. 
I use two, because it cuts your time in half, you are preparing the next hive, while the first is cooking. Really saves you a lot of idle time waiting instead of working.


----------



## snl

jmgi said:


> Just wondering if anyone has heard of a better way to deliver OA vaporization into a hive any quicker than using the battery operated vaporizer? Right now, doing it according to directions, it takes about 10 minutes per hive roughly. When you have 100 hives it gets into lots of time, because you need to do three separate treatments in the fall. Just seems like somebody must be working on a way to speed it up.


Hang in there, we're close.....


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## soarwitheagles

Robbin said:


> Hi SoarwithEagles,
> 
> I didn't see anybody else make a recommendation so I will.
> 
> I have the Heilyser, varroacleaner and two varrox. The varrox is the most expensive and the best bang for the buck. That's why I have two of those.
> Much better made, much more durable. I've seen reports of the others causing fires when the short, I can't see how the varrox could short out.
> Anyway, I've got experience with 3 different versions and the Varrox is the hands down winner for me.
> I use two, because it cuts your time in half, you are preparing the next hive, while the first is cooking. Really saves you a lot of idle time waiting instead of working.


Thanks for the info Robbin!

I suppose I will go with the Varrox if we can experience a substantial growth in our hive numbers...

Presently we are only at two hives! We are total newbies.

I purchased the Ox vaporizer manufactured in the Czech republic because it appeared well made and was considerably lower in cost.

I am still experimenting, attempting to discover the best way to vaporize the hives. I read lots of posts and also checked out several Youtube videos. The fastest way right now for us requires 2-3 minutes. Here is what I did:

1. I cut a piece of sheet metal the same size as the sticky board. 
2. Remove sticky board and insert sheet metal insert [10 sec.].
3. Load vaporizer with one full teaspoon of Ox. acid [10 sec.]
4. Insert vaporizer into hive [10 sec.]
5. Place cloth on openings of hive [10 sec.]
6. Attach clamps to battery and do the burn [90 sec.]
7. Remove all items [10 seconds]

So total is close to 2.5-3 minutes. This sure is a fast and sure way to kill these nasty mites!

If we are able to have success in multiplying our hives, I would definitely work with 2 vaporizers.

Thanks everyone for helping us achieve success in this war against the varroa mite!


----------



## jmgi

BeeGhost said:


> There are other options, but you have to drag around an air compressor, generator and a $3000 vaporizer. I don't take more than maybe 3 minutes per hive with the H-model vaporizer. That's loading it, inserting it, turning it on for 1 1/2 minutes and letting it sit for an additional 30 seconds. I don't keep the hive closed up for 10 minutes after treatment and have not found a difference in mite loads yet.
> 
> You would be money ahead to run a couple wands at a time even using separate batteries. I can treat 40+ hives without my deep cycle marine battery even taking a large hit. If you have 100 hives you should be able to treat them all in 3 1/2 hours running two wand style burners at 4 minutes per hive. So about 11 hours for a three week treatment on 100 hives. Or you could just go with Apivar for a total cost of just over $500 for a one time application.


Using two wands and two batteries would speed things up for sure. I could cut the time even further if I didn't wait 10 minutes for the whole process to complete, as long as the mite kill is still about the same as you say it is. Thanks.


----------



## Gypsi

anyone try the model vaporizer Brushy Mountain is selling? (Varrocleaner )


----------



## Robbin

Gypsi, from post 247 on this thread.
I have the Heilyser, varroacleaner and two varrox. The varrox is the most expensive and the best bang for the buck. That's why I have two of those.
Much better made, much more durable. I've seen reports of the others causing fires when the short, I can't see how the varrox could short out.
Anyway, I've got experience with 3 different versions and the Varrox is the hands down winner for me.
I use two, because it cuts your time in half, you are preparing the next hive, while the first is cooking. Really saves you a lot of idle time waiting instead of working.


----------



## Gypsi

well I did not read all of this thread before I ordered, and Brushy Mountain had the best price on medium nucs. (I desperately needed the medium nucs) They had the varrocleaner, hopefully I can keep it from shorting out. I have 3 hives, not even sure I have a mite problem, just figured I would order something in so I would not be left scrambling and waiting on shipping if I did find a mite problem when a bunch of capped brood hatched. Now I just need to find the time to open the hives, and hit Ace hardware for some oxalic acid. Thank you for your reply Robbin!


----------



## Robbin

Gypsi said:


> well I did not read all of this thread before I ordered, and Brushy Mountain had the best price on medium nucs. (I desperately needed the medium nucs) They had the varrocleaner, hopefully I can keep it from shorting out. I have 3 hives, not even sure I have a mite problem, just figured I would order something in so I would not be left scrambling and waiting on shipping if I did find a mite problem when a bunch of capped brood hatched. Now I just need to find the time to open the hives, and hit Ace hardware for some oxalic acid. Thank you for your reply Robbin!


I'm not sorry I bought mine, it still works and I've only read about a few short problems. If you get more hives and decided to get a second, get the varrox. 
Get a sticky board and the first time you use it, put the sticky board in and wait two days. They you will know how bad your mite problem was and how good this stuff works.
I guessed I was well over 2000 dead mites on the second full day after treatment. it mad a believer out of me.

Don't breath this stuff! :no: Light a smoker and watch it, better yet, get a filter. I didn't for quite a while, but running two, going from Hive to Hive, your going to get down wind sooner or later. NO FUN...
So I bought a mask.


----------



## Arnie

Is OAV considered an organic treatment? 
Sometimes people ask if our honey is organic. I know it's an overused term but there are people who feel 'organic' is very important . I want to be honest with them, if it isn't considered organic I don't want to lie. 
Thanks.


----------



## Robbin

Arnie said:


> Is OAV considered an organic treatment?
> Sometimes people ask if our honey is organic. I know it's an overused term but there are people who feel 'organic' is very important . I want to be honest with them, if it isn't considered organic I don't want to lie.
> Thanks.


Depends on the definition of Organic. Some people say an Organic vegetable has never been sprayed with anything, while another says it can't even have been fertilized. My guess is if your bees feed on plants that were sprayed, they can't be organic, and you can't tell them where or what to eat. So I doubt you could treat them with ANYTHING, or feed them for that matter, and meet the strict definition of Organic. And that is what I tell people that ask me if it's organic, You can't control where the bees feed, so there is no such thing as Certified Organic Honey....


----------



## Arnie

Thanks Robbin. I had thought of that...the foraging question... there are some alfalfa fields close by. Who knows what gets sprayed on what? But that is a separate issue.
Oxalic acid is an organic acid, I believe, so I thought maybe it fell under some definition of organic.


----------



## Robbin

Arnie said:


> Thanks Robbin. I had thought of that...the foraging question... there are some alfalfa fields close by. Who knows what gets sprayed on what? But that is a separate issue.
> Oxalic acid is an organic acid, I believe, so I thought maybe it fell under some definition of organic.


I like the idea of blowing off the Organic label right out of the gate. Then I don't have to discuss treatments unless specifically asked. I never treat or feed with supers on. So I don't see a problem anyway.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Arnie said:


> Is OAV considered an organic treatment?


All organic certifications allow formic, oxalic and lactic acid as treatments. At least in our country. Some allow thymol but not all.


----------



## Bee Arthur

I've done two oxalic acid vapor treatments in the last couple weeks. This has led to a couple questions...

1. What is the best temperature to vaporize the OA? I've got the DY-NO-MITE variable temperature wand and it came set at their recommended 172 degrees C. I kept the factory settings and followed the directions (2 cycles) for my first treatment. But there still appeared to be a lot of white powder OA on the wand when I finished, and the next week my mite count had gone UP. So I suspect I didn't get a good vaporization of the OA. For the second treatment I cranked up the heat and left it in longer...I had a large mite drop on the bottom board the following day. I won't be certain how effective the second treatment was until I re-test next week. Do all of you have favorite wand temperatures for treating?

2. I have to prop up my hive on a 3/4 inch block in order to fit my OA vaporizer into the front entrance. This reduces the air-tightness, and is also a big hassle. The DY-NO-MITE vaporizer is 1/2 inch deep. I have a standard Kelley hive, so I'd think it'd just slide inside. But that would be too easy I guess. Anyone else have this problem? How deep are your OA trays, and do they fit into your hives without manipulation? (I'm wondering if I should invest in a different wand to avoid this problem.)


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## mgolden

How about a bit of masking tape or duct tape to close triangular side area when you raise bottom super.

I wet an old T-shirt and place it across the entrance to block exit of vapor. 

I'd also suggest changing rails on bottom board out to 3/4


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## Rob Hughes

Hi OA folks.

I see 1 g or 1/4 tsp of OA as a guideline per deep box treated.

I have a nuc in two 8 frame mediums that I want to treat. Has anyone determined a guideline for this size of box? 

thanks,

Rob


----------



## Bee Arthur

mgolden said:


> How about a bit of masking tape or duct tape to close triangular side area when you raise bottom super.
> 
> I wet an old T-shirt and place it across the entrance to block exit of vapor.
> 
> I'd also suggest changing rails on bottom board out to 3/4


Thanks, mgolden. Good idea about the bottom board. I need to either alter that or get a new board to make treatment easier.


----------



## Gypsi

snl said:


> Late evening/early mornings (if the bees are flying) is best..............as most are inside........... No downside...


Yes - the last answer I needed. Thank you for this very informative thread!


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## crofter

Cut a pair of shims 20 inches long, tarpred from nothing to about 5/16 inch at the thicker end. Drive them in from the front of the hive to increase the entrance height. You can also use them any time to create a temporary entrance wherever you want one. Handy to create a back entrance if you are doing a Cloake Board manouver.


----------



## Bee Arthur

crofter said:


> Cut a pair of shims 20 inches long, tarpred from nothing to about 5/16 inch at the thicker end. Drive them in from the front of the hive to increase the entrance height. You can also use them any time to create a temporary entrance wherever you want one. Handy to create a back entrance if you are doing a Cloake Board manouver.


I kinda ended up doing this. I didn't taper them, but I did cut a 3/4" shim to hold the hive up while I'm doing the treatment. I also called the folks at Kelley, and they said I could pop the center wedge off the back-bottom of my bottom board to make enough room to insert the too. My treatment last week, by the way, led to a couple thousand dead mites on my bottom board, so hopefully it's working.


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## soarwitheagles

Anyone know who the guy on Ebay is that was selling the Oxalic Acid Vaporizer for $50? I cannot seem to find him anymore...I would like to have a back up system...


----------



## Arnie

Rob Hughes said:


> Hi OA folks.
> 
> I see 1 g or 1/4 tsp of OA as a guideline per deep box treated.
> 
> I have a nuc in two 8 frame mediums that I want to treat. Has anyone determined a guideline for this size of box?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Rob


I would use 1 gram. 2 eight frame mediums is pretty close to a 10 frame deep.
Just to be safe, do you have a 10 frame deep that you could measure and figure the volume of both? Length times height times width to see if the figures are close? I don't have any 8 frame mediums to compare to a 10 frame deep.


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## snl

Rob Hughes said:


> Hi OA folks.
> 
> I see 1 g or 1/4 tsp of OA as a guideline per deep box treated.
> 
> I have a nuc in two 8 frame mediums that I want to treat. Has anyone determined a guideline for this size of box?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Rob


As stated below, one gram will do it!


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## snl

You can always make a rim and vaporize from the top down. It is just as effective.


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## crofter

I would like someone to make some tests regarding how much of an overdose before you actually see mortality. Really though there is no need to go in that direction because effectiveness is rapidly diminishing returns for any increase over recommended dose.

I have a 1/4 teaspoon and 1/2 teaspoon measuring spoons. 1/4 for five frames, 1/2 for double deeps and heap it just a bit for triple deep. Dont make the mistake of using tablespoons for teaspoon! Those terms are dangerously similar especially the abreviations. That could give you a 3X error!


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## snl

Bee Arthur said:


> 1. What is the best temperature to vaporize the OA? I've got the DY-NO-MITE variable temperature wand and it came set at their recommended 172 degrees C. I kept the factory settings and followed the directions (2 cycles) for my first treatment. But there still appeared to be a lot of white powder OA on the wand when I finished, and the next week my mite count had gone UP. So I suspect I didn't get a good vaporization of the OA. For the second treatment I cranked up the heat and left it in longer...I had a large mite drop on the bottom board the following day. I won't be certain how effective the second treatment was until I re-test next week. Do all of you have favorite wand temperatures for treating?


Most vaps do not have a temperature setting dial as they are not needed. OA begins to sublime at 315 (f).


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## Gypsi

I have a double deep - so that is 1/4 teaspoon / 1 gram for each deep?

Then I have 2 hives that have a single deep, 2 mediums on top. At least one of those mediums I could remove (but getting all those ticked off bees back in the hive to get treated could get tricky) on one hive,

The other hive the bottom deep and both mediums are pretty well occupied. 

Also it is 95 degrees outside, is there a top temperature for vaporizing OA?


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## snl

Gypsi said:


> I have a double deep - so that is 1/4 teaspoon / 1 gram for each deep?
> 
> Then I have 2 hives that have a single deep, 2 mediums on top. At least one of those mediums I could remove (but getting all those ticked off bees back in the hive to get treated could get tricky) on one hive,
> 
> The other hive the bottom deep and both mediums are pretty well occupied.
> 
> Also it is 95 degrees outside, is there a top temperature for vaporizing OA?


One 1/4 teaspoon (one gram) per brood chamber no matter the size, so 1/2 teaspoon (2 grams) for two deeps.
On the other three hives, if the the mediums above the deeps are also brood chambers, you should use 3 grams, but Vaps only hold 2 grams, but if you close it up adequately, 2 will suffice.
No top temperature on OAV.............just a bottom one............37 degrees.


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## Gypsi

The masking tape idea is a good one if I have to shim the hive, but since I made most if not all my bottom boards and use 3/4 inch side walls, I don't know that I will need the wedge. Postponed til morning, the bees had some bearding going on. Crack of dawn will have to do.


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## Ski

My vaporizer is 1/2 inch thick and it fit into most of the hives that had bottom boards that I purchased form the bee supply houses. It did not fit in my home made bottom boards. So I just used a 1x2 and put in the hive between the bottom box and bottom board and pried it apart to slide the vaporizer in and again when taking it out.


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## snl

Ski said:


> My vaporizer is 1/2 inch thick and it fit into most of the hives that had bottom boards that I purchased form the bee supply houses. It did not fit in my home made bottom boards. So I just used a 1x2 and put in the hive between the bottom box and bottom board and pried it apart to slide the vaporizer in and again when taking it out.



Whatever works, but remember, you can vap from the top down...........


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## soarwitheagles

I have a question regarding how often we can vaporize with the Oxalic Acid...

Here's my situation:

We split a hive a couple of months ago. We treated both hives with Apivar strips immediately after the split.

Both hives had massive mite deaths [sometimes over 300 a day].

After the Apivar treatment, I noticed continual mites dropping onto the sticky bottom board on Hive 1, almost zero mites on Hive 2.

Treated both hives with 4 treatments of the Oxalic Acid vaporization...

Hive 1 still having 200-300 dead mites after each treatment.
Hive 2 has almost zero dead mites.

Two questions:

1. Why would one hive only have 0-5 dead mites per week, while the older hive has 300+? [Does this have something to do with the limited amount of closed brood due to the split and the time it required for the new queen to begin to lay new eggs]?

2. How many times can I treat with Oxalic Acid per year without hurting the bees?

Thanks!

Soar


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## Tim KS

snl, I've heated OA with a propane torch but am concerned if there any danger in vaporizing the crystal too quickly, or using too much heat?


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## snl

soarwitheagles said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 1. Why would one hive only have 0-5 dead mites per week, while the older hive has 300+? [Does this have something to do with the limited amount of closed brood due to the split and the time it required for the new queen to begin to lay new eggs]?
> 
> Dependent upon how much brood is emerging with mites..
> 
> 
> 2. How many times can I treat with Oxalic Acid per year without hurting the bees?
> 
> I've not found any studies that can answer that question, but I've one hive that I've treated all summer long as an experiment. I treated every time I went to that yard which was about every two weeks or so. That hive is fine and they produced 3 mediums of honey which is a little more than expected in these parts. Now, I've pulled that honey and put the filled combs in other hives as feed.


Best,
Larry


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## Jlberry

Has the impact of oxalic vapors on honey been revisited since this thread started?
I don't want to feed honey exposed to OA vapors to people but I do like to know the facts if anyone has recent data.

Thanks!


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## Gypsi

have to restart that every 6 day process on Thursday. Had a child here, had rain, haven't even checked the sticky on hive 1, (the last hive I did) Mite drop on 2 wasn't a lot but they all shot out the front door when I put the vaporizer In. Hive 3 had about 300 after a day. Business, taxes, 2nd tax return, and misc to do 's dragged me off.


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## gnor

It would be interesting to see how much OA does get into the honey, compared to a control hive, wouldn't it? The good news is that OA occurs naturally in Honey and a bunch of other foods we eat, so it's not harmful in small quantities.


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## snl

Jlberry said:


> Has the impact of oxalic vapors on honey been revisited since this thread started?
> I don't want to feed honey exposed to OA vapors to people but I do like to know the facts if anyone has recent data.
> 
> Thanks!


I believe you'll find your answer here...........

http://web.archive.org/web/20071020111620/http://www.mellifera.de/engl2.htm


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## Barry

> The content of oxalic acid in the treated colonies was between 22,8 and 37,7 mg/kg honey (fig. 9). Each column represents the content of oxalic acid of a collective sample of at least nine honey combs from two or three colonies. The colonies that were treated with oxalic acid on average had a lower content of oxalic acid in honey than the non-treated colonies. The vaporisation of oxalic acid, therefore seems to be completely harmless in this respect too.


This is all we have to go on from this study. We don't know what the hive configuration is of each hive (honey supers vs. brood chambers). Were they all equal in this regard? I'd want to know the details of how this was conducted seeing that the OA level was lower than non treated hives. Not sure it passes the smell test.


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## snl

There are a few studies on OA in honey after treatment. Mainly from German speaking countries. The ones I have come across include testing honey for traces after treatment using OA dribble, spraying and vaporization.
I think the best source of info is from the following review (in English). The section titled 4. RESIDUES AFTER TREATMENT 
WITH OXALIC ACID would be of interest here.

https://hal.inria.fr/docs/00/89/21/8...l-00892183.pdf

In the following study they have come to the same conclusion as most here in this post. Page 5 Residues and Human toxicity issues
http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...ate_conditions


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## Barry

> Moreover, no significant residues are expected after oxalic acid treatments. Indeed, there is no risk of honey residues after all types of oxalic acid treatments.


Say what? :scratch:


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## Bee Arthur

For the record, my mite count dropped to near zero after two good OA vapor treatments. I'm planning one more treatment around Thanksgiving to make sure they go into winter without a mite load. I'm very happy with my results from the OA vaporization...I only hope my bees weren't harmed beyond saving before I got the mite numbers down.


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## snl

Barry said:


> "Moreover, no significant residues are expected after oxalic acid treatments. Indeed, there is no risk of honey residues after all types of oxalic acid treatments." Say what? :scratch:


Actually it makes sense at least from an OAV point and I've seen other reports that say the same. The vaporized crystals reform into crystals within the hive after vaporization. Within days, the bees carry them out .............


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## BeeDoc

I'm a retired urologist and have treated large numbers of kidney stones over 45 years prior to my retirement. The most common stones are composed of calcium oxalate. One of the most important recommendations for oxalate stone prevention is avoidance of foods high in oxalates ( compounds containing salts of oxalic acid, such as cocoa, spinach, rhubarb, sweet potato, beets, etc). I am a backyard, small time beekeeper, and have used oxalic acid vaporization with good results. It has occurred to me that honey contaminated with excessive amounts of oxalic acid may predispose to increased production of stones, especially in those individuals who have recurring oxalate stones. Until this can be studied and documented or ruled out, I recommend that supers be removed during vaporization and until the process has been completed sufficiently long to allow all of the vapor to be eliminated. This would be an excellent university study. Stones are no fun. (George Walker, [email protected])


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## crofter

I would think that if you are predisposed it might be better to shun honey entirely. I have read some studies that claim very little or no measurable increase after oxalic acid mite treatments, beyond what is the range of normal for honey. Different honeys do vary a lot in what is normal. 

It is an interesting idea and I would like to see more documented studies done. It is all to easy to "spin" the actual influence when there is bias either pro or con.

Sensationalism is alive and well and comes in many forms; I do my best to minimize my uptake as much as possible.


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## dudelt

I have stated this before but will do so again. The concern over OA treatments and honey contamination are way over blown. Here is why: Per Wikipedia (not the best source of info, I know), 1 serving (3oz) of spinach has about 1 gram of OA in it (0.97g/100 gram serving). I will be an idiot and vaporize with the supers on for this demonstration!!! If you have a 10 frame hive, 2 deep brood and 1 deep honey super, and vaporize with the suggested 2 grams of OA, and it spreads out perfectly evenly over the whole hive, you will get a maximum of 2/3 of a gram total in the honey super. A smaller amount than is found in 1 serving of spinach. The 10 frames of honey weighs over 50 lbs. the 2/3 gram of OA is now distributed over 50 lbs (or more) of honey. This gives you just about 10 mgs of OA in a pound of honey. 

All of these calculations assume the vapor is attaching to the honey itself but most is on bees, frames, wax cappings and hive bodies, etc. Am I worried? not a chance.


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## BernhardHeuvel

And also half of the oxalic acids burns during the vaporization (sublimation) process. It dissembles to CO2 and a small portion of formic acid. The actual numbers are: 54 % oxalic acid, 45 % CO2 and 1 % formic acid. So if you vaporize 1 g of oxalic acid, only 0.5 g ends up in the hive. 

http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB...sidue_Limits_-_Report/2009/11/WC500015217.pdf

The half life of oxalic acid is said to be 2 weeks..when dribbling and the oxalic acid enters the gut of the bees. So vaporized oxalic acid most probably has an even shorter half life...

I wouldn't treat with supers on, but mainly because there is no need to do so under my local conditions.


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## Bee Arthur

Based on everything I've read so far, I don't believe OAV poses any threat to honey if the supers are left on. That said, until the _perception_ of a threat is overcome, I put a piece of cardboard under my supers while treating them (see pic).


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## Mr.Beeman

Here in the northern climates, when is the best time for OAV treatments? I hear late fall which means late Oct- early Nov for the broodless period.
When do you treat up here to be the most effective?


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## crofter

Mr.Beeman said:


> Here in the northern climates, when is the best time for OAV treatments? I hear late fall which means late Oct- early Nov for the broodless period.
> When do you treat up here to be the most effective?


The recommendation to wait till late fall risks having too little time to raise your wintering bees that are unaffected by mites and the many viruses they carry.

From a narrow perspective of when Oxalic acid is the most effective at the instant, a time when there is no capped brood present would be the clear winner.

From the perspective of what is potentially the most benefit to the bees and Oxalic acid is the only treatment considered, I would say start in August knowing that you will have to do three or four treatments but by the middle of september you can be far ahead in the mite battle. If you wait till brooding stops before treating, all your bees going into winter will have been exposed to mites and virus during their critical time. I think treating too late and light on stores is the biggest cause of winter mortality.

There is no question that dealing with supers still on the hive complicates treatment.

You are further south so the seasonal adjustment will apply. I just completed a full course of OA vapor treatment yesterday. I may not have to do a follow up single treatment end of Oct. when brooding is shut down.


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## Mike Gillmore

I've had very good success with a series of 3 treatments 5-7 days apart in late summer-early fall. Then another single treatment when the colony is broodless, some time between Thanksgiving and Christmas when the temperature is above 40-45 deg.

I usually pull off honey supers by mid August, then begin a series of 3 treatments which runs into early September(the beginning of the goldenrod flow). August-September is usually when the mite load is at it's peak and if I wait until later to treat I end up with a lot of damaged bees going into winter. This schedule doesn't work for everyone because there are a lot of beekeepers who do not remove their supers until late Fall. For me that's too late to start OAV. 

You are north of me so your target start date will be earlier in the season. I would guess that you should begin the series about 2 weeks prior to your typical Goldenrod flow date. If you don't plan to remove supers MAQS might be a better option for late summer treatment, then a single OAV later when broodless.


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## ABruce

crofter said:


> The recommendation to wait till late fall risks having too little time to raise your wintering bees that are unaffected by mites and the many viruses they carry.
> 
> From a narrow perspective of when Oxalic acid is the most effective at the instant, a time when there is no capped brood present would be the clear winner.
> 
> From the perspective of what is potentially the most benefit to the bees and Oxalic acid is the only treatment considered, I would say start in August knowing that you will have to do three or four treatments but by the middle of september you can be far ahead in the mite battle. If you wait till brooding stops before treating, all your bees going into winter will have been exposed to mites and virus during their critical time. I think treating too late and light on stores is the biggest cause of winter mortality.
> 
> There is no question that dealing with supers still on the hive complicates treatment.
> 
> You are further south so the seasonal adjustment will apply. I just completed a full course of OA vapor treatment yesterday. I may not have to do a follow up single treatment end of Oct. when brooding is shut down.


Crofter do you treat in the spring? If so what do you think of treating as late as possible (Nov 11) here and calling that the spring treatment. It seems to me the early spring treatment regime some people are advocating is designed to cut back the residual mites in the hives, as its applied too early here to be effective against new infestation. I am thinking Oxalic as late in the season as possible would be equal or better?


----------



## crofter

ABruce said:


> Crofter do you treat in the spring? If so what do you think of treating as late as possible (Nov 11) here and calling that the spring treatment. It seems to me the early spring treatment regime some people are advocating is designed to cut back the residual mites in the hives, as its applied too early here to be effective against new infestation. I am thinking Oxalic as late in the season as possible would be equal or better?


If you leave virtually a zero mite count in Nov. when the hive is broodless the level will not increase overwinter so I agree you should be able to do away with the spring treatment. Opening some drone brood should tell you whether any mites overwintered. If you have a lot of other bees around you are going to pick up some mites by drifting anyway.

If you had continuous mite monitoring as Enjambres does you would not need to wonder. I have treated in the fall with wrappings on knowing I had a low but positive mite count and then gave them another single dose in early spring with wraps still on. Doing preventativ treating that way I had two years with no sign of mites but have picked up a few this year so am treating a bit more vigorously. Just finished the fifth OA yesterday and had only five mite fall in 24 hours after. I will see how that trends in the next several weeks. I only have one out of thirteen hives on a screened bottom with a sticky board but they all got the same medicine!

Some people have the philosophy of treating the minimum amount to have the mite levels just short of economic impact. Up to now I have been isolated enough apparently to be mite free. There may be some hives moved within reach that makes that no longer possible for me. I will have to be a bit more on top of monitoring.


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## shinbone

"_Just wondering if anyone has heard of a better way to deliver OA vaporization into a hive any quicker than using the battery operated vaporizer? Right now, doing it according to directions, it takes about 10 minutes per hive roughly. When you have 100 hives it gets into lots of time, because you need to do three separate treatments in the fall. Just seems like somebody must be working on a way to speed it up._"



snl said:


> Hang in there, we're close.....


SNL - any progress to report? I, too, would like a faster way to OAV


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## cervus

shinbone said:


> I, too, would like a faster way to OAV


Amen brother. Something just a tad less expensive, but equally effective as the Canadian units would be just the ticket.


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## Jerry T Indiana

Shin bone 
There is a local commercial beekeeper here in Indiana that uses a 6 or 8 foot long tubular device that hooked up to a generator and it takes him like 10 seconds or so per hive. I think he just puffs it in.


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## snl

shinbone said:


> SNL - any progress to report? I, too, would like a faster way to OAV


In the final stages of testing & refinement, hopefully November ........ Approximately 40 seconds or less per hive. No large battery, no compressor, no generator. Can deliver pre-measured amounts of OA per hive. Ability to do 8 hives prior to refilling which will take about one minute. Again, hang in there.


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## shinbone

snl said:


> In the final stages of testing & refinement, hopefully November ........ Approximately 40 seconds or less per hive. No large battery, no compressor, no generator. Can deliver pre-measured amounts of OA per hive. Ability to do 8 hives prior to refilling which will take about one minute. Again, hang in there.


Glad to hear there is progress and looking forward to seeing the finished product soon.


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## Jerry T Indiana

Snl I am looking forward to seeing it myself. I assume it will also be vapor?


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## snl

Jerry T Indiana said:


> Snl I am looking forward to seeing it myself. I assume it will also be vapor?


You assume correctly.........


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## Hogback Honey

never mind


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## jwcarlson

snl said:


> In the final stages of testing & refinement, hopefully November ........ Approximately 40 seconds or less per hive. No large battery, no compressor, no generator. Can deliver pre-measured amounts of OA per hive. Ability to do 8 hives prior to refilling which will take about one minute. Again, hang in there.


Now we're talking. In time for my 'winter' OA treatment maybe?


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## biggraham610

Whats the scoop, come on with it SNL, got a one legged man totin a battery around somewhere...............................


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## wildbranch2007

biggraham610 said:


> Whats the scoop, come on with it SNL, got a one legged man totin a battery around somewhere...............................


no but that 8 ft by 8 ft solar panel on his back is slowing him down :shhhh:


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## Scrambles927

OAV treatment sounds like an obvious remedy, with the only drawbacks being (i) you can't treat with honey supers on and (ii) as it kills only phoretic mites, if you have brood you need to treat three times over 18 or so days. Its kill rate is very high, it doesn't create an unhealthy reservoir in the comb, a cardboard partition protects the honey supers and you otherwise don't need to take your boxes apart to treat.

Sounds great! What am I missing? Who would use MAQs instead?


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## tanksbees

Scrambles927 said:


> OAV treatment sounds like an obvious remedy, with the only drawbacks being (i) you can't treat with honey supers on and (ii) as it kills only phoretic mites, if you have brood you need to treat three times over 18 or so days. Its kill rate is very high, it doesn't create an unhealthy reservoir in the comb, a cardboard partition protects the honey supers and you otherwise don't need to take your boxes apart to treat.
> 
> Sounds great! What am I missing? Who would use MAQs instead?


I switched to MAQS this year from OAV. I don't have enough experience, but this is what I perceive to be the benefits:
- Drop strips in and forget. 2 minutes per hive vs 15 minutes per hive over 3 sessions. No electricity needed. No water needed to wash out OAV pan. Time savings on 25 hives is more than 5 HOURS.
- Can use with supers on which means you can extract honey from brood nest
- "Certified Organic" chemical vs having to explain to a customer why I am putting wood bleach into my hive
- Super fast (3 day) mite kill theoretically means you can treat 18 days later than OAV with same results. 18 extra days of good vs lackluster productivity.

Downsides:
- Costs $2 per nuc, $4 per hive
- Seems to attract ants
- Some reports of queen issues. I lost one very weak hive out of 13. Would I have lost them anyway? Not sure. They seemed to get overrun with ants shortly after treatment.

Both require a respirator to work with. Both have nasty fumes. MAQS requires rubber gloves as well.


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## Scrambles927

Fair enough. I am a hobbyist and only have two hives, so the time commitment is not really a factor. I don't like to take the hive apart to put the strips between the two brood boxes, and OAV is attractive from that standpoint. I recently treated my hives with MAQs and had large mite drops continuing a week after treatment, so I'm not sure about efficacy. And I hear horror stories about MAQs taking out not just queens but whole hives. Likely this results from extraneous factors--incorrect application, treating a "dead hive buzzing" where no treatment could save the colony, etc. Well, I have bought the vap and so I will try that out and see what the results are. First-year experiences, likely first-year mistakes. Thanks for the input.


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## frogpondwarrior

A bit overwhelmed. My mentor dropped of my Varrox the first of the month. However, he has not had time to once come have a look at my progress or make suggestions.
He did say when the bees arrived June 17th that we could not increase # of hives and I would have no honey this year. Must be luck as we went from 3 to 4 hives with four full (36 full frames- not quite full) honey supers. Think my hives are in a good location.
Having just received my vaporizer we now completed half of my OA treatments. There were very few mites in my plastic drone frames throughout the season. So I hope my treatments are successful but the mite count is low. Then again we never saw two of our queens all season either. Maybe it's the ole can't see the trees for the forest.
First two sessions were done from the top and the last two will be completed from the bottom. Has anyone done both top and bottom and which did you find more effective? The suppers are removed each time and treatments were just done on the brood boxes. Supers replaced later so they are not OA exposed. See the cardboard idea above. I like that...much easier.
Thanks for your help.
Posted this in another section but more appropriate here.
Thanks
R2


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## snl

frogpondwarrior said:


> First two sessions were done from the top and the last two will be completed from the bottom. Has anyone done both top and bottom and which did you find more effective?


Both are equally effective............do what's easiest for you.........


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## frogpondwarrior

Just talking to another co-worker who started the same time as I did. Our mentor, also local bee supply store,has been at his place several times and told him one treatment on the 1st of Oct, Nov 1st, Dec 1st. 

When he dropped my equip he just handed me a bill for it. No suggestions other than what we might or maybe it was just what he was going to try next spring. 

I decided on the 5 day plan but have gone to 6 due to weather. Is there a difference? That is from month to month instead of 5 or 6 day cycles?


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