# Commercial Beeks on this section of the forum



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

opcorn: There I was, rocking along, enjoying the humor and discussion on another thread, and before I could reply to a comment, the thread was shut down. Oh well... So, I'm posting this new thread.

I'm not certain why Commercial beeks pay attention to the non-commercial sections of this forum, but I'm glad they do. Personally I enjoy the expertise they bring to our non-commercial discussions, and I learn from them. I also suspect that occasionally they find a nugget from us non-commercial beeks that they try out in their own operations to see if there is any value for them. And finally, I'll bet they get a few yucks from us. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The trouble is, there aren't any treatment-free commercial beeks coming here. I'm not sure why Dee doesn't come any more. I suppose I could ask her....
I keep wondering why they keep coming in light of the fact that they aren't treatment free. If I had a question of them, I would be sure to go to their dedicated forum and ask them. I feel troubled about the fact that people come here to ask questions and a good portion of the answers come from beekeepers not practicing what the subject of the forum is.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

At some point or another, ALL threads go off topic. Seems like we beeks enjoy free association, and our minds simply take off in tangents.

But I still enjoy the commercial beeks posting on the non-commercial threads. Even if they do treat, their observations can help us treatment free beeks.
Regards,
Steven


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

Exactly Stephen,

I believe everybody can recieve nuggets from each other. Did not Barry create this forum for all keeps to share and discuss differences in practices? Sol makes it sound like this is a "ONLY FOR TREATMENT FREE FOLKS" section. That is a trigger that makes folks upset. 

Every Person I meet either selling honey or in general conversation, who asks about bee information, I send to this site. Thats hundreds a year. I do believe we can gleen from one another.

Steven, another trigger is a new beek who has been keeping one hive, and on this site for one month with over 250 posts, coming across as a expert in every thread they post in, then turn confrontational if you disagree with what little they really know. 

I feel better now, thanks Stephen.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I can tell you why I don't really post on the treatment free forum anymore is because the standard changed from chemical free to treatment free. I am chemical free but not treatment free. I use EO's in my operation and like most commercial beeks depend on queen breeders and healthy hives to make a living. I don't have the resources nor the time to try and work up survivor stock and besides like many have noted here, just because your hives are not treated doesn't mean that they won't die from cold, starvation, and things other than mites. Anyway, it just seemed that some of the purest weren't interested in hearing mine/our observations about certain things, but rather were looking to pick a fight so to speak. I really enjoy beesource and don't want to be provoked into saying something that could get me booted so it's usually best just to lurk, which is what I suspect other commercial guys in the same boat are doing.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Okay, I'll bite. It's open. Have at it.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Stonefly7 said:


> Sol makes it sound like this is a "ONLY FOR TREATMENT FREE FOLKS" section.


I'm sorry if it seems that way. We (that's Barry and I) have been working to make this forum safer for TFBs because of the hostile environment it had become. We had to go through the process of developing a definition of 'treatment', put it through a vote, change the forum title, change the forum description, and all at the behest of beekeepers who are not treatment free. By demanding these changes, non TFBs pushed their own self out the door. Now by not being able to argue for treatments, they have less to say. And this is not to say that I'm trying to push them out the door, I am not. I'm not at all saying this forum is only for treatment free beekeepers. But it is only for treatment free beekeeping. If you don't feel like you can operate within those constraints, no one is forcing you to.



Stonefly7 said:


> Steven, another trigger is a new beek who has been keeping one hive, and on this site for one month with over 250 posts, coming across as a expert in every thread they post in, then turn confrontational if you disagree with what little they really know.


This has not gone unnoticed.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

On the new beek- Larry Connor always says that the second year beekeepers are much smarter than him LOL. They can answer every question LOL
Mike


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

By demanding these changes, non TFBs pushed their own self out the door. 

I don't know anything about this! 

Now by not being able to argue for treatments, they have less to say. And this is not to say that I'm trying to push them out the door, I am not. 

OK!

But it is only for treatment free beekeeping. If you don't feel like you can operate within those constraints, no one is forcing you to.

So, you do not want me to share my observations from being treatment free to having to treat, because times and pestilence have changed my management practice to keep the bees alive and productive? Remember Sol, prior to 1984, we were all treatment free! That's a fact! I don't mind how you manage your bees. If you are happy with a 75% loss, thats great with me. Just don't shut us down when we would like to share "lessons learned" with folks heading down that path!

This has not gone unnoticed.[/QUOTE]

I truly hope not!


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

Mike, I have kept bees for 37 years. You know what? I still don't know it all. I learn each and every day. Every experience is a learning enviornment. I learn from those older than me, and those younger than me. It's all good.

It just gets frustrating when those who are stuck in some paridigm, think their way is the only way, and are not open to any discussion about the matter. 

Never stop learning, and listen to those who have been there, so you don't make the same mistake. We want everybody to be sucessful in what ever stage they are in. Either using treatments or not using treatments. It does not matter to me or others.

Just have an open mind and be willing to listen and share your experiences that may help others.

Is not that the real goal?

Kind regards


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## hillhousehoney (Oct 7, 2008)

*Wow! This is .......*

exciting. Have been gone awhile because so much info did not apply to me. I am a regular of Dee's list and a follower of her methods. Thank you so much for opening this forum up to the rest of us. I will be a regular again.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Stonefly7 said:


> Remember Sol, prior to 1984, we were all treatment free!


How did you deal with mites then?:s


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

What mites? When were you born Sol?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Oh, so treatment free and mite free are totally different things then? So, being treatment free before 1984 and now are two totally different things? Is that what you're saying?


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

Sol, I am surprised from someone who abhors sarcasm in any of their threads. Prior to your BIRTH year, there were NO MITES! 

Kind regards,


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Yes, and so, and there's no sarcasm here, being treatment free before 1984, is _irrelevant._ 

And I was born in 1983.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> And I was born in 1983.


Wait a minute. Wasn't that like, a couple years ago? 

ok feeling really old now....


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

I fed terramycin back in the 80's twice a year....that is how I was taught to do it, I would call that a treatment. So I guess I didn't go treatment free until 2009.  Sol you are a youngster!!:lpf:


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

being treatment free before 1984 said:


> irrelevant.[/I]
> 
> My God Sol, don't you get it. We had no mites, so no miticides. Lets separate those who need honey production, from those who don't. It's easier that way.
> 
> ...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Stonefly7 said:


> A hobbiest like yourself does not care so much about production, right? ... So you purchase VSH stock and keep the genetics flowing from that stock, and add new VSH stock every other year. Your colonys that express those VSH traits will have poor production. Thats a fact! And what kind of production do you get? 30#?


Not a single one of these things is true.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

OK, let's land this plane.

"Remember Sol, prior to 1984, we were all treatment free!"

What exactly are we suppose to "take away" from this statement? What's your point?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm not sure why Dee doesn't come any more. I suppose I could ask her....

She got tired of the animosity of the chemical beekeepers. The point of this kind of forum is to discuss how to do it, not argue with people who think you shouldn't be and she got tired of re-defending her position at every single turn. She can, of course elaborate if she wishes, but you'd have to ask her. But if you look at the Organic Beekeepers group on Yahoo you'll see she does not tolerate any discussion of treatments. Why? Because that's off topic. There are other places to discuss that.

As far as treatment free, when I started back in the 70's everyone seemed to be using (or at least the books talked like everyone was using) terramycin for AFB prevention. But, of course, there were no mites although the magazines were talking about Tracheal mites in other countries at the time...


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

> How will the next generation of Commercial beeks ever be trained??? Who will train them??


If I was interested in becoming a commercial beek and looking for training I believe I would begin in the commercial beekeeping forum and not in the treatment free one. :kn:


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> She got tired of the animosity of the chemical beekeepers. The point of this kind of forum is to discuss how to do it, not argue with people who think you shouldn't be and she got tired of re-defending her position at every single turn. She can, of course elaborate if she wishes, but you'd have to ask her. But if you look at the Organic Beekeepers group on Yahoo you'll see she does not tolerate any discussion of treatments. Why? Because that's off topic. There are other places to discuss that.


 Without firm moderation it is simply impossible to hold any cohesive discussions here about _how to keep bees *without* using treatments_. As this thread so elegantly demonstrates _yet again_. I for one appreciate the moderation efforts here, it seems a rather thankless and bleak job.

Why does it always wind up with folks coming here solely to tell everyone TF beekeeping method 'X' is a _myth _that has been disproven by 'X' study, demanding 'proof' at every turn, that it won't work for commercial bks, why everyone should use treatments if they are to be 'responsible stewards' of their bees, would they let their child die instead of giving him life saving medicine, yadda yadda, yadda, over and over? I can see why someone like Dee wouldn't want to _waste her time_ sitting in an endless interrogation room with a rotating cast of characters demanding that she justify her every post, intent on discrediting everything she says. Yeesh, like _get a hobby_ I say! lol!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

When I was approached by a member about having a forum for commercial beekeeping, one of my big concerns was that it would alienate non-commercial beekeepers. I said as long as non-commercial beekeepers who participate were not shunned or belittled, I was willing to give it a go. I'm happy to say it has worked out well.

I have the same expectations for this forum. Commercial beekeepers are most welcome to post and participate here. However, here there is a very specific focus, as does the Commercial Forum. Sol and I will continue to expect the focus of this forum to be honored and will aggressively work to keep it that way.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> Okay, I'll bite. It's open. Have at it.


I don't see why there is such a problem about commercial beekeepers. They will express their opinions, sometimes strongly, bees are their life. But they would all like to be treatment free. Trust me.

There are reasons for the sometimes "them and us" attitudes between various groups. Those reasons will always be there.

In the housel thread, my right to be there was questioned, on the basis that I was a commercial beekeeper. Why? 

Since coming to this forum, I have on occasion been argued with, insulted, called names, vilified, told I should retire from beekeeping, and more. The bad behaviour is not all one way. I also think some people here hate me.

But do I care? Not really. Since coming to this forum I have been inspired to try a bit harder at treatment free beekeeping. I have learned a lot here. Sorting the gold from the dross is a problem, but that happens everywhere.

Since partaking in this forum I've started a natural cell hive, a small cell hive, and a treatment free apiary. This is all thanks to the mostly hobbyist treatment free folks who are here.

When a person spends all day every day, working with bees, you learn stuff. I'd like to think I've been able to give, as well as take, from this forum. 

Why am I saying all this? Cos the divisions between full time and hobby beekeepers don't have to be a problem. They aren't at the bee club I go to. 

Some people would like to kick commercial beekeepers off the forum. Why? They are not a threat, they are a resource.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Oldtimer said:


> Since coming to this forum, I have on occasion been argued with, insulted, called names, vilified, told I should retire from beekeeping, and more. The bad behaviour is not all one way. I also think some people here hate me.


Here lies the crux of the problem. You're gonna get argued with. Sheep live in fields, bears poop in the woods, in forums, people argue. The rest are interpretations. If there are insults, names, or vilification, they will be taken care of. If you think something has been overlooked, you need only to bring it up to a moderator in a private message.

And unless someone actually said "I hate you", it would be a good idea to get off that one too. Going around with that chip on your shoulder is only gonna cause more problems.

There are no prevalent anti-commercial feelings among established hobbyists (that's how it's spelled, not hobbiests, for the general population, not you Alastair). Yes, some times a hot headed newbee will jump in and start tossing non-sequiters, but the regular users of this forum have absolutely nothing against commercials, even retired ones from the other side of the world like you. So if you see a hot headed newbee, just leave them alone, don't feed the trolls. And if you see a post you disagree with, state your reason and move on. We all have to change our modus operandi if we're gonna make this a fun forum.

Finally, the term "some people" is what is known as 'weasel words.' 'Some people' is not an acceptable defense when making a point. Who? If you are willing to make a point about these people, it's reasonable that you should provide their names so they can defend themselves. 'Some people' can't defend themselves, because 'some people' may not even exist.

We all have to own up to our stuff, not just you, not just me, everybody.



*hobbyist hobbyist hobbyist hobbyist hobbyist* Sorry, that one has been bugging me for a while.


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

Barry,

All I was trying to say, were, times were different when we did not have to worry about alot of the things we worry about today when it comes to keeping our hives alive and productive.

I have watched and lurked since 2005, waiting for folks to post real results from new ways to manage hives without chems. Yes as OT noted, some nuggets have come to the surface, and are applied in a closed setting to see if the results will work in a commercial enviorenment. That's all good! 

But as he noted, some folks get a little passionate about their operation and their livelyhood. The purists and the commercials. I guess that will always be.

I believe the issue is not with the audience. The mod is supposed to be the conduit for the audience, directing the conversation from one person to another. Pedantic or obsessive moderation can be worse than no moderation at all. Its the members who make a quality forum.

It's not a sufficient reason to delete posts or comments simply because you disagree with the posters opinion. Forums are all about free expression of opinion. Members will soon start ostracizing the forum if they can't legitimately express their view albeit different from yours.

If it's the site owners policy to delete opinions which differ from the majority, then its members will realize the forum is not objective and not worth contributing to. Differences of opinion are what spark the controversy and conversation essential to rich, entertaining, revelent and informative posts.

Kind regards


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I agree mostly with what you said. I'm still confused over the razzle you and Sol had. Either I'm missing something, or you are, as we see it very differently.

You said: "All I was trying to say, were, times were different when we did not have to worry about alot of the things we worry about today when it comes to keeping our hives alive and productive." I understood Sol to be saying the exact same thing.

Stonefly7 -
So, you do not want me to share my observations from being treatment free to having to treat, because times and pestilence have changed my management practice to keep the bees alive and productive? Remember Sol, prior to 1984, we were all treatment free! That's a fact! I don't mind how you manage your bees. If you are happy with a 75% loss, thats great with me. Just don't shut us down when we would like to share "lessons learned" with folks heading down that path!

Solomon Parker -
How did you deal with mites then?

Stonefly7 -
What mites? When were you born Sol? 

Solomon Parker -
So, being treatment free before 1984 and now are two totally different things? Is that what you're saying? 

Stonefly7 -
Prior to your BIRTH year, there were NO MITES!

Solomon Parker -
Yes, and so, and there's no sarcasm here, being treatment free before 1984, is _irrelevant._

The way I read this exchange is that Sol is making the point that today we have mites to deal with. Being treatment free now with mites isn't the same as being treatment free before mites. Anyone (basically everyone was) could be treatment free pre mites. I think he was trying to state the obvious.

Am I missing something?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Stonefly7 said:


> It's not a sufficient reason to delete posts or comments simply because you disagree with the posters opinion.


No it's not. If anyone ever feels this has happened, they should email me or PM me with the details and I will address it.


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

Barry,

Maybe we were saying the same thing in different ways. Or maybe his attitude against commercials who treat, yes, it's there, overoad my vision in reading what he actually said. 

I was hoping he would direct the conversation from one person to another, depending on their expertise. The forum is not about the mod. If the mod has alot to say about a topic, great, tell the owner you would like to partisipate instead of moderating it. As a moderator, it is not their job to answer questions, they are the conduit for the audience. 

Example; when I mentioned vsh queens vs production, he answered "None of that is true", as a matter of fact statement, like he had the research to support that. I would have hoped he said, take a look at Robert Russel's numerous post about genitics, a leading researcher in honey bee genitics, located in the (Resistant Bees, Productive or Not) thread. 

Anyway, thanks for your time, thanks for the forum, the plane is in the hanger on jacks, undergoing heavy maintenance.

Kind regards


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Stonefly7 said:


> Example; when I mentioned vsh queens vs production, he answered "None of that is true", as a matter of fact statement, like he had the research to support that. I would have hoped he said, take a look at Robert Russel's numerous post about genitics, a leading researcher in honey bee genitics, located in the (Resistant Bees, Productive or Not) thread.


My apologies, let me be clear, for my bees, none of that is true. I did not buy VSH, I don't have low production, and all my bees were developed from treated stock. It is a matter of fact.

And, again, I will repeat myself. *I do not have anything against commercials.* The anti-commercial language has been manufactured out of whole cloth.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

So has the anti hobbyist. 

And if a person has bees as a hobby, what's the problem with being called a hobbyist? Do some people feel demeaned or something?

I'm a hobbyist, that's what I'm happy to be referred to as.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

opcorn: my my my what my initial post stirred up.... sigh... I think we discover that folks sure can get passionate. And regarding the post who suggested someone "get a hobby" :lpf: I have a hobby! It's beekeeping!  

Ok, now to my point. I was gratified to see that one poster, apparently a commercial beek (my brain is fried from reading thru these posts, and I don't remember exactly who posted it, my apologies) is trying several different approaches to keeping bees. This beek even has a "treatment free" yard now! Great! The blog that Barry encouraged me to start, and helped set up, describes my journey in being treatment free...the good, the bad, and the ugly. This is the last year I'll be posting data in that blog, and I'm really hoping my honey production is up this year. 

Some of us oldtimers, both treatment free and those who treat, understood exactly what was being said when the comment was made "before 1984 everyone was treatment free" in that there were no mites back then, we didn't have a death sentence hanging over our colonies, and life was _wonderful!_ Oh for the good old days!

But they're gone forever, and we beeks have to continue to discuss our options and alternatives in keeping our colonies alive and productive. My plan is to get back to my 100 pound per hive average in the 1970's and '80's, but without treating. We'll see. The jury is still out. Now, if I could just quit making _new_ mistakes....:doh:
Regards,
Steven


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

I do miss those days as well.....back when beekeeping was actually easy, well, compared to today anyway. So many variables now, I have two hives going into their 3rd year without treatments or feeding, I should be happy but alas I am filled with trepadation...are they surviving due to small cell etc...or maybe because they both swarmed last year causing a break in the brood cycle?? I guess time will tell. Oh and I have no problem being called a hobbyist..


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

Mike,

You, you, you Hobbyist! Hope you weathered the storms ok? I guess by definition of the majority in the commercial forum, I am also a hobbyist, since my honey income does not excede my job income. But it's getting close. At least my honey income gives my Grandboys the best education money can buy. 

I will be back out for Easter for a couple days. I will let you know how your future Locust yard is producing. Two weeks ago I had at least a super of honey on each one, some 1.5 supers. Its a primo location, and it's my test yard, so that may play well for your expansion.

Kind regards


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Why would any hobbyist object to being called a hobbyist? Why would any commercial bk object to being called a commercial beekeeper? ...unless the terms were being used in a derogatory way or as part of an insult. But that's a whole other thing.

Hey Sol, see how _good_ we being now, spelling hobbyist correctly? (GASP!- I was spelling it wrong all these years too!)


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Hey Tim,
The storms were all east of here so not a scratch. This should be a great year for Black Locust due to the dry conditions. Looking forward to hearing how they are doing. Oh and THX!!!


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

Hrm . . . We (or maybe just I) have been using the terms commercial, sideliner, and backyard to describe the three general categories of beekeepers. Anyone else use three buckets, or is this a binary categorization only?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Actually there are only two kinds of people in the world. The kind who divide people into two groups and the kind who don't...


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

There are only 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Sol - I believe in the second post you stated:

The trouble is, there aren't any treatment-free commercial beeks coming here. 

Did you mean "Beekeepers"(in the spirit of the "hobbiest/hobbyist spelling episode)?

I am confused. I would consider myself commercial, and do not use any chemicals, synthetic or natural, to combat mites. I believe by your definition , that I am "treatment free". I am here.

I too can remember the days before mites. If more than 5 percent of the hives died overwinter, that was bad. If you could avoid AFB, or burn every hive that was infected, there was no need to treat for that either. I can provide documentation from a 1924 magazine talking about a visitor to Linden Apiary and how AFB was handled without chemicals.

So yes, most everyone before 1984 was "treatment free".

Why is there the friction between the commercial people and others?

A lot of it has to do with education and experience levels. A commercial beekeeper may see more in a week than others(oops that "other people" phrase) see in a life time with one hive.That is neither sides fault. We have more chances to make mistakes, have our livelihoods at stake,and have to learn alot faster than a person with a few hives. A few of us have been educated in fields that are very close to beekeeping, and have given us a different view on the effects of gene pool changes, epidemiology, selective pressure, and organic chemistry. Again, this knowledge is not our fault, nor is it a fault of anyone to have chosen a different education and profession, to be more knowledgable in those fields.

Lastly, two reasons that the commercial forum is so "calm", is a different style of moderator, and the ability of those that post there to openly post questions to each other , with out taking offense, and reply in a manner that provides material support for their beliefs. Don't forget, every day we put our money where our mouths are.

Roland Diehnelt
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852
5th gen. Commercial beekeeper.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Welcome to the forum Roland, glad to see you dropped the 'crazy' moniker. I use my real name just so I can remember that it's me with nothing to hide behind.

I'm not sure how calm the commercial forum is, I remember seeing a pretty messy argument a few days ago with a newbee who has been making the rounds lately. I'm not sure why there is so much friction between some commercials and some hobbyists but I suspect it has to do with the confluence of youthful enthusiasm and aged wisdom in practice. I'm learning to be less concerned with such things.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Since partaking in this forum I've started a natural cell hive, a small cell hive, and a treatment free apiary. This is all thanks to the mostly hobbyist treatment free folks who are here.


Hi Oldtimer, I'd be interested to read your comparisons between your small cell hive/natural cell hive and treatment free apiary in comparison to your commercial operation. Perhaps you could do a post with as much detail as possible if it wouldn't be to much trouble? I'm a relatively new beek (3 weeks, so by newbie standards I think I'm 3/4 of the way towards knowing everything) and have absolutely no knowledge or experience to compare the two by. More pointedly I'd be interested in what problems you encountered in your commercial operation that you didn't encounter in your TF apiary as well as vice versa. Also as someone who has a wealth of experience how many *DUH* moments did you have that could have saved you from what you might consider as "obvious mistakes" that you overlooked initially. Maybe this would be best as a separate thread because I have no intentions of hijacking this thread, but I would be really interested in your take on a serious and honest pro's and con's between the two different disciplines and if in your opinion a treatment free commercial operation on a large scale is feasible or would simply be considered peeing in the wind?

Best regards,
Moon


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK I'll start a thread not today though, and I'll link it from here so you'll find it when the time comes.

A few things though firstly I'm no longer a commercial beekeeper I've just got 30 or so hives plus some nucs as a hobby. 

But to a new beek, I'd say treatment free is not just that simple, even if people tell you it is. There is a price to pay. Almost no full time beeks are treatment free, and there is a reason for that. 

Also, I'm not even really the right person to talk to about treatment free. I treat some of my hives with non residual chemicals, and others of my hives are treatment free *as it's defined in this forum*, but they are not really totally treatment free, because I use methods such as drone brood culling, and the mating nucs do OK without treatment because of breaks in the brood cycle. 

Treatment free is still very new to me and to be honest I'm not yet convinced it can be done sustainably and viably. I want to be convinced but there needs to be more objectivity, and dare I say, full disclosure, by some treatment free advocates.


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## Gord (Feb 8, 2011)

I read about 3 pages of the thread and couldn't help but wonder why you don't have a Treatment Free category, and a Chemical Free category. I'm a newbie, but my intent is to be Chemical Free.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> since my honey income does not excede my job income.


Who wrote that definition? To me if your honey income turns a profit you are not a hobbyist. That is just me maybe.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird, I don't know how you poist a quote on your Reply in the way you do, cut and paste? It would be nice to know who made the statement. Just sayin'.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Who wrote that definition? To me if your honey income turns a profit you are not a hobbyist. That is just me maybe.


Yep just you


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Acebird, I don't know how you poist a quote on your Reply in the way you do, cut and paste? It would be nice to know who made the statement. Just sayin'.


I agree with you. When I did that like I did with yours I got flack from the moderator for using "Reply with Quote" when I first joined this forum. Yet I see everybody else using it. It is a pain using cut and paste, so what is the rule?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> When I did that like I did with yours I got flack from the moderator for using "Reply with Quote" when I first joined this forum.


I believe the intention is for you to use just a relevant portion of the message. Certainly leave the identifier so one can click it and go back and read the entire message. I think this is what Barry meant... not must a total quote.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

hpm08161947 said:


> I believe the intention is for you to use just a relevant portion of the message.


Yes I believe it is a volume issue, not the use of quotes.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

That is correct, reply with quote, delete the irrelevant portions of the quote, being sure to leave the tags at the beginning and end.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> so what is the rule?


Erase all but the relevant part of the quote.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Will do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

See. We can help each other.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hi Moon, I've started a new thread for your question, here is the link
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-chemical-free-beekeeping&p=658133#post658133


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Right on, thanks alot Oldtimer. I was also reading another thread of yours in which you catalog the series of events following an agressive regression to SC from LC. Thank you so much for all of the invaluable information.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ha Ha, an aggressive regression! I like your terminology!

It was a lot of fun doing that hive and it is now doing well, on pretty much perfectly built 5.0 ml cells.


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## Bee Goddess (May 11, 2011)

I have used treatments and I have been treatment free and I have used EO's.
I have yet to find one that works 100% every year.
I prefer to stay as organic as possible becuase I feel bees need to build up natural defenses to all issues. Plus I don't want to introduce chemicals into anyone's system.
I do use grease patties and monitor my hives. I feel if you stay diligent then any process, regardless of anyone's preference, will work.
I have had upwards of 150 hives (not anymore, whew) and a bee keeper for over 10 years. I learned from the old timers. Am I an expert, nope. But I do appreciate input from different points of views. 

My favorite quote, regarding all views and discussions, from Aristotle:
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.


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