# How Monsanto, Dow and the US Govt are planning to kill your bees



## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

The website this so called factoid comes from run by so called Prof Joe Cummins is a fraud. 

Not much more really to say but this guy has no credentials that qualify him to be an expert on GMO etc. 

Besides how many bees do you see in corn on a typical summer day? Zero!


----------



## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

The bees were heavy in my brother's large patch of sweet corn when it tasseled last summer. But sweet corn is not field corn...


----------



## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

Well, I'm certainly concerned about he use of smartstax corn. Corn is not a favorite source of pollen for bees but they will work it when they don't have other options. This could be particularly bad under drought conditions when cultivated crops are being irrigated and there aren't many other sources of pollen.


----------



## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

My bees went into my Sweet Corn patch to gather the pollen off of the tassles. My understanding is that even Field Corn has the ability to be sweet for just a day or two.


----------



## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

Lately, Great Britain doesn't have the best reputation for producing verifiable, accurate science (see University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit)! :lookout:


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Dont worry bee happy, BUd will defend the chemical companies until the end!


----------



## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

NDnewbeek said:


> Lately, Great Britain doesn't have the best reputation for producing verifiable, accurate science (see University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit)! :lookout:


Read it again - it's not UK research. And don't get me started on the corruption of US university research by corporate interests.


----------



## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Bud Dingler said:


> The website this so called factoid comes from run by so called Prof Joe Cummins is a fraud.


So now you have done your ad hominem attack-dog thing - would you like to tell us exactly in which respects he is wrong, and what qualifies you to contradict him?


----------



## Blackwater Bee (May 1, 2008)

I don't think it is their intention is to kill off the honey bee or other pollinators, but their actions certainly need to be questioned :scratch:

Monsanto: The can literally shut off seed production of any plant. 
Dow: They're Poison 
Government: They ruin everything they put their dirty hands on.:doh:


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Evil chemical companies are out to get you! 

This is nothing but hyped up propaganda. Unfortunately, it's this type of sensationalist conspiracy drivel that has gotten most to ignore "experts". Unfortunately, when an expert may come across something that's truely important, no one, myself included is going to listen.

The US Government?, now that's a drunken hippo. Stumbling about, not knowing it's own strength, eating everything yet wanting more, crushing whatever it touches (intentionally or not). Things are much better when it lays down to sleep it off.


----------



## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

D Coates said:


> The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Evil chemical companies are out to get you!
> 
> This is nothing but hyped up propaganda.


You know what is propaganda. When pro-chemical lobby is saying that sky will fall and we will all be hungry. 

A little info : 

http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/organic-farming/true-false_en
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/organic.farm.vs.other.ssl.html


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

*Alarmist Nonsense*

I have not read your post past your subject line because it is, of itself, screams of alarmist nonsense. 

Not all Americans believe our government is evil, corrupt, drunk, etc.

Perhaps some of the humans that are employed by it are any or all of the above, but our government, as an institution, is not planning to kill our bees. 

This is the stuff that leads people to fly their planes into IRS buildings or shoot people outside the Pentagon. They see the alarmist headlines or hear the screaming soundbites on the radio and go nuts. 

Wayne


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

One can link all the info they want and it will not make the original post any less sensationalist. Just because it's on the internet doesn't make it so. If everyone dropped their pants every time someone made their claims (either side) we'd all be walking around in skirts.  I inherently trust neither side, I read, listen and look at it logically then decide. Sensationalism though shows desperation and numbs the senses.

Just because we are beekeepers doesn't mean that we should stop thinking for ourselves.


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

*Re: Alarmist Nonsense*



waynesgarden said:


> I have not read your post past your subject line because it is, of itself, screams of alarmist nonsense.
> 
> Not all Americans believe our government is evil, corrupt, drunk, etc.
> 
> ...


Well, let's not forget that the government burned women and children in Waco, and shot some folks in Idaho. Native Americans might have a few comments about government instigated genocide as well. 

There are enough extremists on both sides of any issue to make the rest of us sceptical. But our scepticism should help us see the kernel of truth that exists in the midst of all the hyperbole.

And here's a for instance: What accounts for the increased incidence of Autism in this country the past few years? Now, that is just an example, not an intent to start a new thread. I'm not anti-chemical or anti-medicine, but I do believe that we are dumping a lot of stuff into our food chain of which we know very little, esp. regarding long term, cumulative consequences. Expecially as these various substances interact with one another. Do both camps, the pro and con chemical folks need to get a grip on reality? :lookout:
Regards,
Steven


----------



## Dubhe (Jul 19, 2007)

Hold up a minute everyone, I have to run to the kitchen & get some more popcorn.

OK. Thanks


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

See the documentaries

Food, Inc

King Corn


----------



## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

D Coates said:


> One can link all the info they want and it will not make the original post any less sensationalist. Just because it's on the internet doesn't make it so....Sensationalism though shows desperation and numbs the senses.


There was nothing sensationalist about that post, except perhaps for the headline - and that is what headlines are for: to attract attention.

If you would all rather pretend that agrichem/GM companies either don't exist, their products are entirely benevolent or they are somehow charitable towards bees and beekeepers, then go ahead - you may want a fantasy novel to go with that.

On the other hand, if you all want to understand what is really going on in the world (and I'm not targeting D Coates here), may I suggest you look for sources of information that are not Fox News, and concede that there are people out there who actually care about the future, the environment and yes - bees - and who are concerned when a conglomerate of Monsanto and Dow start pushing crops onto farmers - with government incentives.

Don't believe everything you read, but don't automatically disbelieve it because it was said by someone you don't know or don't like, or by someone who dares to criticize a sacred cow. That way lies narrow-mindedness and, _in extremis_, fascism.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

......


----------



## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

buckbee said:


> There was nothing sensationalist about that post, except perhaps for the headline - and that is what headlines are for: to attract attention.


Or announce a lack of credibility.


----------



## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Hey - I have an idea! 

Why don't we discuss the actual issue, instead of the way I chose to present it?


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

buckbee said:


> Hey - I have an idea!
> 
> Why don't we discuss the actual issue, instead of the way I chose to present it?


There are so many "books" and so little time. Claim not to as one might, you must judge a book by it's cover. One might want to choose a better book cover next time. The inflamitory post title indicates no one is actually wanting to discuss, they've already made up their mind and just want to spout off on it. 

Or as buckbee says, "That way lies narrow-mindedness and, in extremis, fascism." 

If someone appears on your doorstep looking suspiciously in your window with a bloody brick in hand are you going to open the door to see what they want or leave it closed? I bet Neville Chamberlain wishes he would have judged a certain book by its cover and left the door closed.


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

"On the other hand, if you all want to understand what is really going on in the world (and I'm not targeting D Coates here), may I suggest you look for sources of information that are not Fox News, and concede that there are people out there who actually care about the future, the environment and yes - bees - and who are concerned when a conglomerate of Monsanto and Dow start pushing crops onto farmers - with government incentives."

ahhhhhhh you think Fox News is biased? Doesn't give valid information? Are you with the same group of English scientists caught fudging the data on global warming? and now people who disagree with you don't care about the future or the environment? opcorn:


----------



## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

StevenG said:


> Are you with the same group of English scientists caught fudging the data on global warming? and now people who disagree with you don't care about the future or the environment?


Do you understand the term 'ad hominem'? You might like to look it up - but to save you the trouble, it means 'attacking the person instead of the argument'.

And, for the record, I am not 'with' any group of scientists - whatever that means - and the fact that you still seem to think this is British research simply proves you have not bothered to read the article and chose instead to attack me because it requires no mental effort.

Clearly, few here are interested in actual issues, so I will let you get back to rearranging the furniture on the Titanic.


----------



## Buffalolick (Jan 26, 2010)

I did not know bees worked corn..learn something everyday! Corn is wind pollenated..it's why you have to plant several rows for it to make. Neat to know bees will forage it anyway.... I agree that Monsanto and Dow probally use their influence in Washington to protect their market...not a big fan of that. However, the development of GM plants, particuliarly with the stuff that can be oversprayed with Round-Up has led to LESS pesticide/herbicide usage. Whereas farmers had to use more expensive, and IMO more dangerous selective herbicides and spray them more often, now they can overspray once or twice with a realitively safe product, that is not very mobile once it contacts the soil and breaks down rapidly. Sounds like a boon for those concerned about the environment..that is if the goal is to actually use less pesticides. It may have even reduce pesticide use to the point that bees can work large cotton fields again...I'm still looking into that though... Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Buffalolick (Jan 26, 2010)

Oh and I forgot to add that the science of splicing genes onto a virus in order to modify the cells and the overall organisim has applications beyond just Round-up tolerant plants...could one day cure cancer and HIV and all the other genetic diseases.


----------



## Budster (Mar 24, 2006)

Here's a good watch on Hulu about them... (It is free)

http://www.hulu.com/watch/67878/the-future-of-food

They are going to mess everything up if they aren't carefull.


----------



## Tina 2Bees (Feb 13, 2010)

Getting past the sensational title of this thread, it does lead to some interesting questions.

In our small corner of the world, we have noticed a huge increase in the amount of corn planted, along with oil sunflowers. 
Our beeyards are on alfalfa hay fields, and sweet clover pasture. Most of the yards are within 3 miles of the row crops. The bees seem to get some pollen from both corn and sunflowers.
There are several beekeepers near us. This year, many of them have lost at least half of their hives, including us. 

It was an odd summer, cool and moist. The bees made more honey than some of the dry years, and were heavy with honey stores. They were fed pollen patties, and were treated on schedule. 

It actually was much like the summer of 1997, which was also cool, and wet, but we did not have high numbers of bee dieoffs. 

If there actually is a correlation here between bee dieoffs and corn, what is the next step? 

Tina Huelsdonk
Opp Honey


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Just because one believes this is an actual issue and supports it with questionable Internet sources does not make it so. This is not personal and this is no attack. We all have the right to question the motives of others. There's nothing facist about that. Unfortunately, the title of the post clearly shows bias, and inflammatory bias at that.

At this point taking this post seriously as something to consider as neutral is like openly talking about ones personal investment strategies with someone who's got snake oil to sell.


----------



## be lote (Mar 26, 2008)

yup my bees was workin corn last year. had em on watermelons an it seemed
they worked gmo corn early til flowers opened. cant say it hurt em none.
as far as what the goverment will do. there is old orchards round here folks cant live on cause of recomendations from goverments on sprayin fruit.
bees matters always take a backseat on fundin if at all.
they hopein to make bees irelivent for pollination.
some of the chemicals that aint allowed here is openly sold in other countrys.
have intrest in pecan. wont able to spray a fungicide in this country an in mexico they do then ship the nuts into the states. with some crops you gotta rotate fungicides cause they build up reistants. with that spray you
didnt have to.


----------



## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Here's where the original post at least appears to disintegrate into propaganda:



> *Smartstax can end bees* -posted by buckbee





> *Smartstax can end bees* -posted by buckbee


The real charges leveled in the quotations are accusations of chemicals used as seed treatments. Only very nebulous "GM seems to be bad, too" statements are made.

"Smartstax" is not synonymous with "seed treatment." The two are quite different things.

Oh, and by the way, the chemical named by trade name in the post is patented by a corporation that remains unnamed in the title and in the original post. Most of the accusations are actually made against that chemical. What gives?

Odd that these threads are coming from overseas. Have you witnessed beekeeping in the areas that have most widely adopted the agricultural practices that you're condemning?


----------



## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

sutton this has nothing to do with monsanto or bayer it has to do with someone who knows better posing as an expert. 

The references in the article are not what is considered peer reviewed science. The references are a mix of product literature, newspaper articles and opinion articles. 

Call your local university bee researcher or other university researcher and show them this piece of crap and see if they agree with me. Just the title of the article puts it in the same arena of Glenn Beck and Jeff Rense with the anti government rant that appeals to fear factor. 

I find this kind of anti people junk news distasteful and hurtful to our society. You have to believe in something when you get up in the morning and I believe most people and even those whom work for big corporations are decent people not out to get bees etc. 

One final thought sure there are instances where bees can feed on corn pollen but for the most part its a last resort in drought etc. How many of us here on bee source have hives surrounded by corn and have good bees and a honey crop?


----------



## be lote (Mar 26, 2008)

i was figurein feral bees was like the canarys in the mines. bees is in trouble.
how many on bee source would rather have there bees only work organic
growed crops or flowers. only fokes that gonna truely no how our action of today afects the tomarows of bees is historians an seems some of them got biasis to.
as far as corperations. cant say that i seen to many registered as non profit
organizations. there job is to seperate you from your money our job is to make sure all the blood sweat an tears it cost to get it is worth it.


----------



## trapperbob (May 27, 2007)

I'm no conspiracy theorist but it has been very well documented that the chemical companies have created and sold many pestisides and herbicides over the years and claimed there were no adverse affects to anything other plant or animal than what they said it would affect. We know now from there own documentation they knew otherwise and all they were doing were trying to fill there own coffers and keep there stock holders happy. I'm not saying they have'nt improved the life of many people over the years I would be very wrong to say otherwise. But the pursuit of the dollar has become more important than the saftey. I do not begrudge a company the right to make a profit but in this case the ends do not justify the means. I am 42 years old and have helped spray some chemicals over the years that were legal but are now outlawed and for good reason. We now know that many of them never go away and have contaminated wells and caused birth defects and a host of other things sometimes the ground is so permiated with the chems you can smell it in the soil. the chem companys new this in most cases and hid and lied about it. There is no doubt because of the sheer amount of the world poulation we need chems just to make the amount of food to feed the world. Over the years we have screwed the balance of nature up so badly that the checks and balances are no longer there. So what do we do. Vicious trap we have created.


----------



## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

:banana:


----------



## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

trapperbob said:


> There is no doubt because of the sheer amount of the world poulation we need chems just to make the amount of food to feed the world.


This is a myth. Pro-chemical lobby is all over the media with this argument but it is far from truth...

See here : 

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/organic.farm.vs.other.ssl.html 
http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/organic-farming/true-false_en

The thing is that more and more farmers are deciding to go without chemicals and the crop is the same. One interesting thing is that some of the farmers around here don't even buy corn seeds anymore. They use their own seed now. 5 years ago if you told them to use their own seed they would just laugh at you. Today is completely different story. I also see more and more green manure and crop rotation than just 5 years ago. There is hope.....


----------



## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

Its all just talk untill someone goes to jail or at least gets litigated successfully. In the meantime, hand me that tin foil please.


----------



## trapperbob (May 27, 2007)

Beenovice if we used are seed around here there would probably be a mutimillion dollar law suit because the seed here is under patents. In your country this might work fine and I think that its great you can do that. There are many farmers that dont use chems here but the stuff they are growing has been genetically modified to be resitant. Thats one more thing that chem companys have tied up here. Monsanto and a few others have cornered the market here. A farmer would not have a chance those companys would mow him down under such a legal battle he would go out of business because ofthe sheer money involved.


----------



## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

Tin Foil hats for all!:banana::banana::banana::banana:


----------



## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

trapperbob said:


> Beenovice if we used are seed around here there would probably be a mutimillion dollar law suit because the seed here is under patents. In your country this might work fine and I think that its great you can do that. There are many farmers that dont use chems here but the stuff they are growing has been genetically modified to be resitant. Thats one more thing that chem companys have tied up here. Monsanto and a few others have cornered the market here. A farmer would not have a chance those companys would mow him down under such a legal battle he would go out of business because ofthe sheer money involved.


It's old seed....not GM...not patented.


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

BUd I agree with you...there are many good people at chemical companies. I dont think anyone of those prople would kill bees on purpose. But the testing done by bayer is not real indepth. the chemical comapnies do the testing and turn paper work over to EPA. They then either approve of not. Dont think for a minute that someof the research isnt biased. Recent research has shown that slamm amounts of neonictinoids affects larvae. Universtity research is funded by grants from chemical companies.....dont think its biased just a little? WehnCCD first broke I was told by a VERY good source that a university had been called and told to bsicallyleave these pesticides along or loose research dollars. My source had his info direct from university president. As I have posted on here before a really good beek had 250 hives in mellons with systemic insecticides and 240 died. the other 240 almost 95% lived. Just luck? No proof, but common sence means alot. I dont thnk anyone is purposefully trying to kill bees....they just ant to sell insecticide because of $$$. And last but not least, they tell us that this insecticide is excreted ro our bodies and does no harm. Since its in our food as it systemic. I really wonder what the long term affects are...time will tell and I hope Bud is right but I fear he is not.


----------



## mcooper (Dec 3, 2009)

Where was the systemic in use? As in what farm was using it, and what was the insecticide used? If your beek friend knows the details.


----------



## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Universtity research is funded by grants from chemical companies. . . . -suttonbeeman


Some bad apples surely exist in the bunch, but I firmly believe if you took time to get to know some of those researchers, you'd quickly find that they are conscientious, dedicated folks who conduct honest experiments and research without undue influence from private interests.


----------



## JPK (May 24, 2008)

What makes you think these folks are any different than any other group of people.......usually in any group, something like 10% of people are "Good/Moral", 10% are "Bad/Immoral" and the rest fall somewhere in between and waffle back and forth on issues.

I've been avoiding this thread because of how rediculous this tin foil hattery is but......

Its pretty pathetic that so many people are incapable of realizing that different agencies within Government change their policies/enforcement with shifts/changes in leadership....This can be compounded when appointments made by one administration are permanent/persistent.....much of this is possible because we Citizens are allowing our Elected Representatives to continue to pass really poorly constructed legislation that fails to properly restrain bureaucracy to a specific role/job.....we allow these Reps to create these same bureaucracies and then grant them rule making authorities.....when its the Elected Officials that should be doing the rule making as part of Legislation and the bureaucracy should simply be implementing law....instead its MAKING it.

Look, Government at Local, State, Fed Levels each have an important job to do....I just wish they would focus on doing it instead of of trying to pass it on to some underling......if we were to insist that our elected officials actually DO their jobs then they wouldn't have the time on their hands to get mixed up in things we never granted them the power to meddle with.


Thats my .02......please feel free to return to your regularly scheduled tin foil hattery....


----------



## be lote (Mar 26, 2008)

i dont think no one is out to intentional kill honey bees but im thinkin they thinkin the needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few. 

round here there is granville wilt an black shank even after you gas the land


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

I'm not sure which one was used but it was a systemic insecticide that was used in irrigation water. NO proof of what was the cause, but bees dwindeled away. Other than the bees location they were palced is same areas rest of year and treated the same.


----------



## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

thats a pretty compelling story Sutton has told and I believe what I heard is irrigation delivery of this stuff is suspect over other applications. 

my time in R&D in my early days showed me that the public views issues black and white but science can be shades of grey. 

clearly Imid etc is the most heavily used chem in the world and honeybees are still around. Not to say there are not applications or off label use thats created isolated problems. 

I'm still keeping an open mind myself and let the science play out. as we have discussed numerous times neonics are over all safer for bees then the organophosphates due for delisting.


----------

