# Seeding the forest with bees



## Solomon Parker

So there's no bees there already?


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## Rick 1456

I caught a swarm from this area. It has urban population around it. I do not know where these bees came from. I know where the cluster was before they entered my box. Can not locate the source. 
I guess my thoughts were to try and establish a hive under old school conditions in the "woods". Man made hollow and see what takes course. A test of my bees maybe?


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## T152

I'm not sure what you meant by "under the radar," but I've thought of sneaking a hive into a wildlife/state forest that's just down the road. The thing is so big I wonder if anyone would notice..... Anyway, good luck!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

I live right next to Mammoth Cave National Park, and back in the late 1990's when the Varroa mites wiped everyone out, including feral bees, I tried to get the State and Federal Government (using the tobacco settlement funds), to buy some Package Bees and just release them into the wild to repopulate the area from the wipeout. They claimed there would be a liability issue, and it never came about. Feral bees are on the increase now and have been for the past 5-8 years. It is beginning to show up in logging operations near the Park.

Not sure of the consequences of putting a nuc on State Property, but it would be illegal to take bees from a National Park.  The Park will occasionally grant permission for swarms be relocated, if they endanger tourists or Park facilities. Otherwise they are protected.

cchoganjr


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## Beecharmed

T152, I was thinking the same! I was driving through the back ares of Eastern Oregon, Miles and miles of very few people. I was thinking just for fun placing a few hives out in some locations and seeing what happens. For that matter, does anyone know the regulations for placing Honey Bees on U.S. Forrest Land?


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## johnth78

"And in the news today a Maryland man was arrested on the charge of Bio terrorisim when he alledgedly released Honey bees onto public land in the hopes that they would spread and enddanger tourists."


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## Sharpbees

Here in KY there is a program for setting up hives on reclaimed coal mining land. It is illegal to turn other animals into the wild but with bees I'm sure this would not apply since swarms happen and we can't be controlled as to whre they end up. Placing hives anywhere without permission is tresspassing but you could set them on private land ajoining the state park and alow them to swarm, should accomplish what you are proposing provided there is a hollow tree the bees like or you could find a tree or suitable hive spot and place swarm lure to draw swarms to that location provided you are allowed to be in that area of th park. Good luck!


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## Nature Coast beek

I think seeding the forest with native seeds, truly like Appleseed, is the way to go. One of the biggest problems for the honeybee as with most endangered species is LOSS OF HABITAT AND LAND CARRYING CAPACITY. The bees that are already there will appreciate it.


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## Rick 1456

Under the radar, trying to keep it quite The idea of putting lure in possible hollows is a great idea. Perhaps some man made hollows of the correct size and some old comb. 
This is not a vast tract. Quite small actually. 1100 acres. Very diverse though. The swarm I lured is still on the property and thriving. Those that are aware think it is really neat they are there. Very much out of the way of the public. My hope is they will stay there, and come spring, lure their swarm to a hollow. I just think it would be interesting Maybe a nuc in the middle of the forest.
Thanks
Bee Bio Terrorism (a popeye laugh is emitted)


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## Solomon Parker

I think a better plan would be to covertly create habitat for the bees. Get a good drill bit and drill some holes in some trees, get a hollow started. Maybe it will be enlarged by a bird or something. Make habitat available and things will happen. Dump animals on bare land and you're not going to see any positive results.


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## Rick 1456

Since I have been entertaining this idea, sometime before I posted the thread, I have kept my eye open for good looking hollows. Certain sections of the property probably haven't been logged since the 1700s maybe? Huge trees. A few good candidates I believe. Thought about getting a cheap, if there is such a thing, flex camera to spy into the hollow and take my best guess as to whether it will accommodate. 
The area is very conducive, forage wise, for the bees. Several utility right of ways, fallow fields and the like. Good water sources. 
Hopefully, if I do proceed, I will set the stage for success


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## gmcharlie

isn't anyone bothered by this? this type of un experienced Meddling with the enviroment is exactly what gave us Asian carp, brown rate in Guam, SPade toads in the outback, oh yea Africianized bees....... Feral hogs... etc... the list is HUGE

I know I know " were smarter than that" exactly the reasoning.... There are laws against putting things loose like that in national parks for a reason... 
Manage your own bees and leave the parks to the experts. JMO


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## Rick 1456

WHOA,,,,,
I GOT the bees from the park. Did you miss that? What is the difference in this, and putting out Bluebird boxes, wood duck boxes, re locating indigenous Wild Turkeys or other similar conservation efforts?. They are LOCAL bees.


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## DLMKA

Since I can "keep" bees in my backyard and have a tree with a hollow I thought about dumping a swarm in the hollow and see what happens. I got into the hobbby as a way to help with pollination in my garden.


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## Rick 1456

I do not totally disagree with GM C. The species he makes point with were in many cases, good intentions gone bad. Some were "the experts". I'm not importing anything foreign/non indigenous.  I do not see the harm at this point. Willing to be enlightened.


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## gmcharlie

Well the first two were boxes to encourage wild breeding. the turkeys was done with the help of experts to ensure the health, a team of conserrvationist to plan it, a legal body to approve and fund it (supported by everyone usualy) (wolves not so much)...

Not one guy with a plan....... I am all for more bees..... What drives me insane is the number of people who want to put or take from public grounds cause there smarter than the rest of us.... same guys who scream at controled logging, Oil wells on the north slope.. etc,,,,, Also wondered who the genius who imported Varroa, thinking he had the plan!..... 

We have rules about public grounds, restocking them with your own desires (say POT) is not allowed...... But a few hundered acres and do as you wish....

Stepping off the soap box now.....


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## Rick 1456

Your point is well made and taken For me to explain my taking liberties with PL, (this one), I would have to explain some things I care not to.. I understand, but don't quite feel the innocence or potential of it stacks up on the level of oil wells on the north slope. The line has to be drawn somewhere. If I bought those hundred acres next to the PL, and went ahead with the idea, the only difference would be in the use of PL. I can not argue that point, as you would be absolutely correct


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## taydeko

Maybe a better idea would be to find out what species of bees are native to your area and try to make habitat for them instead of honeybees. Whoever is in charge might even endorse the concept.

Ted


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## shannonswyatt

I think the best idea would be to secretly setup a few hives in my backyard. I wouldn't even call the law if I caught you doing it!


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## cerezha

Well, sorry to spoil this nice conversation. The point is that technically, honey bees are "invasive" species - they are not native to America. They compete for habitat and food with native species. It just breaks my heart because I love honey bees and wold like to support them. But, if we wanted diversity, we must support wild species as well. It is tough choice... Sergey


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## Solomon Parker

Invasive or non-native? If they were that invasive, all their competition would be long extinct.

As an aside, not everyone agrees that they are non-native as a species.


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## cerezha

Solomon Parker said:


> Invasive or non-native? If they were that invasive, all their competition would be long extinct.


 Aaaa, Parker! We did not entertain people for while! You did not answer my question in another thread where your expertise may be useful... Commenting on your statement here - it is not *or*, it is *and*... invasive, because they spread into the wildness where they are not suppose to be... yes native species is in decline - read the books, ask your teacher; are you studying environmental sci? But I do not want to start a new discussion - if you disagree, it is fine, hopefully, government will not change their environmental policies just because of Parker... every civilized nation protects its native species...

In my garden, I provide habitat for both honey bees and native bees. I grow native California plants as well as fruit trees, etc. I have bunch of humming-bees and native bees on my native plants. Interestingly, my honey bees are not interested at all in the natives... I hope, it provides some balance in unbalanced urban environment... Sergey

By the way,if you do not believe in native species declining, may be you are in denial of global warming also? Or you just in denial to anything I post? Nothing personal, just funny...


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## sqkcrk

cerezha said:


> By the way,if you do not believe in native species declining, may be you are in denial of global warming also?


If native species and non-native species have been in the vicinity of each others for 400 years, where is the decline? Or did it already happen hundreds of years ago?


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## Rick 1456

Hummmm,,,,you guys hijack my post? LOL


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## Solomon Parker

I guess I touched a nerve. I'll let Mark carry on for a while.

I'm a Civil Engineer working as an Environmental Engineer. I do water and wastewater plants.

I'm skeptical of everything everybody posts, aren't you paying attention? :lpf: Skepticism is an important aspect of human cognitive understanding, a skill far to many have abandoned.


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## BeeCurious

A few years ago I bought Russian queens from Charlie Harper. They took to the trees very well. 

I would manage the queens so you don't lose them to the trees right away. 

I never wanted a clipped queen as I would prefer that she leave with a swarm than to simply die in the grass.


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## Rick 1456

Beeurious,,,,LOL that sounds like an epitaph, HUmmm,,Hallmark card maybe. I love it


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## sqkcrk

Rick 1456 said:


> Hummmm,,,,you guys hijack my post? LOL


I don't know, did we?


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## Rick 1456

LOL, probably not, it falls into the realm. Sam I am, green eggs and ham. 
Was that a chicken???? Hummm,,,,Oh,,meds time ,,,,sorry


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## gmcharlie

unfortunatly I disagree with all the native bees and global warming in general (damm hot here now though) we have tons of wild bees, they took the same hit from Vaorra as the rest, but are in fine shape..... Hell I have a contract to do pumpkins 2 of the patches I went to had so many wild bees, I didn't bother.... whats that got to do with seeding? means you don't need to. Wild bees can split and swarm several times a year... Kinda like compound interest, leave it alone and it will grow

As for global warminag and our current heat wave, much prefer to think that hell has finally descended upon us for the morons we have elected to rule... in the mean time show me global warming that does not line the pockets on the americian taxpayers dime and I will look......


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## Mbeck

A Nuc is worth around $125.00 and your time has value. Maybe there is more value in selling the Nuc and using your time and money for a different project to improve conditions.
Just a thought.


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## Northwest PA Beekeeper

As has been said, I think feral colonies are making a comeback. (I've gotten over 10 calls this year for either swarms or swarms that moved into houses. No one around that knew of any local beekeepers so assume they all came from feral colonies. I'm sure there are probably colonies already there - you just don't know about them.

If you wanted to add some (either find some land right by the park and put some hives there and let them swarm) or next year, advertise that you do swarm removal and dump the swarm in a cardboard box, tape it up, drop it off somewhere in the park and open it up. After several days, return for the empty box or just dump them out of the box on your first trip.

I wouldn't build anything to hive a swarm or put a box anywhere. Putting a hive of bees in the park is putting the bees at risk by bears. And anything you build to try to catch a swarm will eventually fall apart. There are plenty of hollow trees in the woods - again - you just can't see them - but they are there.

As for putting hives on the park grounds "in secret" is setting yourself up for trouble. Perhaps they would willingly let you put hives there under the guise (you want your bees to get "wildflower" honey). They don't need to know chances are your bees will swarm.


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## Rick 1456

I thought, didn't think,,,,,that this would be a fun/harmless thing to do. There has been more discouraging words than positive. From some of the responses, it suggests there is not a clear picture of the circumstances where I am at. There are no bears in southern maryland.  If I thought there were "feral" established hives, I wouldn't concern myself. Honestly do not think that is the case. I sorta think I've gotten a bad rap over this. No matter. One guy with a idea shouldn't do things like this. A bunch of experts with degrees, permits, credentials, can mess up and let loose AHB. I'm being compared to those guys? WOW, my stature in the bee world just got escalated. Calm down, I'm just having fun


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## Lburou

The down side of feral bee colonies is their vulnerability to (now) indemic pests and diseases, and the exposure our domesticated hives have when the two meet.


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## Rick 1456

Thankyou!!!! One of my points that I think got lost somewhere. I can hear the opposition. So, it really matters not the location. I think a point may be who/what is doing the most harm to "feral" bees trying to establish them selves? I'll leave that open


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## Lburou

Rick 1456 said:


> Thankyou!!!! .... I can hear the opposition. So, it really matters not the location. I think a point may be who/what is doing the most harm to "feral" bees trying to establish them selves? I'll leave that open


Rick, I like the way you listen to reason.  I'm sending you a friend request.


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## thenance007

Lburou said:


> The down side of feral bee colonies is their vulnerability to (now) indemic pests and diseases, and the exposure our domesticated hives have when the two meet.


I believe the exact opposite is true--it's the feral colonies that are vulnerable to the pests/diseases/pesticides we use in our domesticated hives. Feral bees didn't introduce varroa or small hive beetles. . .I think our domestic hives would be strengthened by interaction with feral drones that bring local survivor traits to our non-local, weakening genetics.

Rick, I don't know about the logistics but I support your intention in increasing feral bees.


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## Lburou

thenance007 said:


> I believe the exact opposite is true--it's the feral colonies that are vulnerable to the pests/diseases/pesticides we use in our domesticated hives. Feral bees didn't introduce varroa or small hive beetles. . .I think our domestic hives would be strengthened by interaction with feral drones that bring local survivor traits to our non-local, weakening genetics....snip...


I agree that feral bees can have good genetics to offer, but the important difference I note is that you can inspect your colonies and mine....You can't do that to the feral bees, hence feral bees at your water source or robbing your hives can introduce unwanted and unhealthy vectors.


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## sqkcrk

Not likely. Not to a detrimental degree.


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## sqkcrk

Lburou said:


> The down side of feral bee colonies is their vulnerability to (now) indemic pests and diseases, and the exposure our domesticated hives have when the two meet.


Lburou, where do feral bees come from?


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## Lburou

sqkcrk said:


> Lburou, where do feral bees come from?


From Europe, the Middle East and Africa. I'm not saying I expect you to have the same reticence about feral bees and swarms, I'm saying there is risk introduced when feral bees enter my apiary and I want to take precautions to limit that contact with my colonies by doing what I can to keep diseases and pests out of my apiary. 

I live in an area with two known bee hives within a radius of five miles of my rural location. I'm finding black bees in my feeders (clearly not the Italians in those two local hives, or mine) presumably from feral stocks. I don't want to expose my bees to endemic vectors because I'm too lazy to to do something about it. 

That is not to mention the dead horse (assumed AFB stings) within twenty miles of my house this Spring.


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## D Semple

Lburou said:


> From Europe, the Middle East and Africa. I'm not saying I expect you to have the same reticence about feral bees and swarms, I'm saying there is risk introduced when feral bees enter my apiary and I want to take precautions to limit that contact with my colonies by doing what I can to keep diseases and pests out of my apiary.


Non-issue, unhealthy colonies in the wild just don't survive.

The feral colonies are in far more danger from our bees, than our bees are from them.


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## sqkcrk

"From Europe, the Middle East and Africa."? So, there are no feral honeybees in the US currently?

"I am finding black bees in my feeders presumably from feral stocks." Could it be that you have some robbing going on? Bees that rob become slick and black looking. Maybe they aren't black bees at all.

Bees that rob bring diseases home w/ them, they are not a substantial vector of diseases such as AFB and Nosema.

"(assumed AFB stings)" Is this a reference to a case of AFB found in a colony 20 miles away from you? Seriously, this is a real concern to you, a case of AFB 20 miles away? It should not be.


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## avesterfelt

sqkcrk said:


> Could it be that you have some robbing going on? Bees that rob become slick and black looking. Maybe they aren't black bees at all.


Can you elaborate on this? I have never heard t his before or if I did I paid it no mind. Very intriguing and would like to know more about this thought. Thanks 

By the way I do not think seeding bees anywhere is a good idea and intentionally letting them go into the wild is not going to get the results anyone is looking for. I can see a lot of death and agony by the bees that are let go by man. They are much better if we (beekeepers) maintain them with better practices. Just my opinion. 

If you are looking to spend the extra money you have or just wanting to throw out your bees, pm me and I will give you my address and will take all the money and bees you can send.


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## shannonswyatt

avesterfelt said:


> If you are looking to spend the extra money you have or just wanting to throw out your bees, pm me and I will give you my address and will take all the money and bees you can send.


You are in line behind me!


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## Jim Given

Rick....I am kinda like you. I actually got into this because there are NO bees in my neck of the woods....Literally. I have more than 10 miles of state land behind me that borders the next state. Unbuildable land. I have lived here for more than 10 years, we have huge gardens and only other pollinators, but no honey bees. So my plan is to simply let my hives grow split and swarm. With ya.

Jim


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## Gord

Better to ask forgiveness than permission.


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