# Best Langsroth Hive to Buy



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I would stay away from "starter kits." Buy all the equipment as individual items so you can get exactly what you want. Check out this thread first: http://beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221685

Personally, I wouldn't spend money on a feeder. A simple glass quart jar with a lid that has some small holes punched in it works great over the top of the inner cover hole. I also like wax foundation, but you will still need to decided what cell size to use. There is no "right" way start, but you will need to make some decisions that will lock you in a certain path, i.e. deeps vs. mediums for the brood chambers.


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## BeeSquared (Jun 29, 2009)

Wow...that list adds up to be close to $500 whereas a starter kit runs $150 or so. Is it really worth the extra cost to buy the items seperately?

Also, I've read that using a feeder like the one you mentioned encourages robbing. Is the risk overexagerated?


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## BeeAware (Mar 24, 2007)

Betterbee does have good woodenware, but it is not the cheapest source. I also would avoid the kits and buy unassembled woodenware and buy the frames that suited me. However, the Pierco frames and foundation are what I use because they are time and labor savers. Mann Lake sells hive bodies and supers for less than Betterbee, but I don't think the quality is as good.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I made all my woodenware so I admit I haven't compared kit prices with individual item prices. I can't believe there is that much difference. I don't vouce for the prices on the second post of that thread. Start checking with the various suppliers on their prices and get what you want.

The feeder that you're referring to is a boardman feeder that sits at the entrance of the hive. The inverted jar I'm talking about goes on top of the hive and usually enclosed with another hive body and cover.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

dadant is right next door and would cut down on the shipping charges.

mike


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## JIm in Annville (Jul 25, 2008)

As a first year starter myself I found Kelly's deluxe starter kit to be the best all around fit.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

BeeSquared said:


> I was told by a beekeeper friend that the best and least expensive place to buy a hive is BetterBee.com. However, everything I've read says to stay away from plastic equipment. The only thing I can find on that site has included in the item list "Pierco Plastic Waxed Frames." Isn't that what I don't want?
> 
> Where can I find a moderately priced, strictly wooden starter kit? I have zero equipment and I want to start out properly.


Both Walter T. Kelly (www.kelleybees.com 1800-233-2899) and MannLake LTD (http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ 1800 880 7694) have quality products and excellent service. Betterbee seems to me to have higher freight and poor service on what little I have bought for them. I would first determine what you want to get started, make a list, figure the price, and then compare to a comparable kit. I see the problems with the kits as being you may get stuff you don't want or need. 

I am going to all medium as the supers are more interchangable and if you order in quantity things are cheaper. Also a full deep weighs to much for me to want to deal with all the time. I like MannLake small cells plastic frames (they are working good for me). I decided on the plastic because I knew someone who had good success with these in the 80s and I had read that most of the wax foundations were contaminated by the chemicals used to treat the mites. They do seem to be slower drawing plastic. If this is a problem with you and you don't like plastic, research natural cells where they build their own foundation. 

Decide if you want to support the big chemical companies or do things more naturally and/or with small cell equipment up front. 

Do a lot of reading first (this is a good place to start http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm ), decide what you want to do as this will be cheaper in the long run. Do days and weeks of research and reading, and don't do the emotional buying stuff.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

$500 is a lot of money to venture on something new, and everyone's circumstances are different. Have you considered making a Top Bar Hive to see if bees are for you? That is a cheap way to start, and it satisfied my bee urge last year. For me it was a gateway drug! Now I have four Langstroths going. The other thing I did was join a beekeeping club; If you do that you are likely to find someone who'll let you come and help him work the bees - which is another way to see if it is for you. Adrian.


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## splank (May 11, 2009)

I started my first hive this year using foundationless frames but Betterbee does sell wooden frames and wax foundation. 

Frames= http://betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=348


Wax foundation= http://betterbee.com/departments2.asp?dept=121&bot=83 they have small cell and larger cell foundation here.


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Barry said:


> I would stay away from "starter kits."


No offense intended, Barry, but I disagree. Many individuals who start beekeeping as a hobby, despite researching what is needed to pursue the hobby, are inundated and confused by all of the catalog listings for equipment. A small "starters kit", which includes everything (including some excellent books) which might be needed (and admittedly some extraneous items) gets the new beekeeper started in the right direction.

The cost of a kit isn't that much more than itemizing (and eliminating) all items, and after the first year keeping bees, they will now have a better idea on how to expand their operation if they desire. Not everyone has a friend, family member or other mentor available to help provide them with the necessary information in order to proceed, and even by perusing the information here on Beesource, the items necessary to initially purchase and their proper usage can be confusing to new beekeepers. I know I spent more on my starter kit years ago, but I don't have any regrets. I now make most of my equipment and have learned how to pinch pennies in order to make the most profit in my endeavor.

MM


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

The best and cheapest hives and frames are almost always the ones where you don't pay shipping. Look local first.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Walter Kelley Co.*

One thing about Kelley is they will have all the best advice on equipment, assembly & use. Get a copy of How to Keep Bees and Sell Honey.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

BeeSquared said:


> Where can I find a moderately priced, strictly wooden starter kit? I have zero equipment and I want to start out properly.


If it was me this is what I would do:

Walter T. Kelly
Cat.# Wt.	Cost

38-B	(5) empty medium depth supers (nails and instruct 
included) 28#	$054.00

15-A	Wooden Inner Cover 3#	$007.50

49-MA Wood and metal outer cover 8# $014.50

57-A	(1) screened bottom board 6# $021.00

241G-L Goatskin Gloves (large) 2#	$017.00

145-P	Plastic helmit 2# $014.25

142-E	Square Veil (wt. included above with helmet) $015.25

152	hive tool 1# $007.25

322	bee brush .5# $003.75

149	Smoker 4?x10? (larger one, not much diff. in price) 5# $039.50

262	How to Keep Bees and Sell Honey 1# $006.25

Mann Lake Ltd.

PF-120 (50) small cell plastic frames $076.00
Total before freight $276.25

Kelly Freight for your zone (zone 6) 56.5# $057.81

MannLake LTD Freight $019.99
(USPS parcel $19.99 or UPS ground $23.58)
Total with freight $354.05

This should be sufficient for 3 medium brood chambers and 2 medium honey supers for the first year.


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

If the only issue you have with the kit is the type of frames and foundation, a quick call to the supplier will fix it. Any supplier worth dealing with will make that simple change. (expect price to adjust accordingly)


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

For the feeder, I would use a quart jar with 6-8 small holes poked in the top, placed over the inner cover, then with an empty medium box, then the top over the empty box. You can easily check the feeder by just removing the top, and refill with little distubance. 

Also, I would not use wax foundation because of the previous mentioned contamination, but If you would like me to figure wooden frames and small wax or large foundation, I will, just to help you out.


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## letsrodeo (Jun 6, 2009)

well no one has said anything about brushymountain i rely injoyed there website.


http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/prodinfo.asp?number=110


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You have a lot of decisions to make. Where you buy them is the least of those. I'd pick the place based on the shipping costs plus the costs. Quality of equipment is fairly good across the board. Spend your efforts on WHAT you want:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnewbees.htm


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## BeeSquared (Jun 29, 2009)

Wow, I'll be reading A LOT on all the websites you all posted...lol. Thanks a million!


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## letsrodeo (Jun 6, 2009)

ohya dont forget the diy section on this site beesource go to the home page its on the left


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## NewBee2007 (May 6, 2007)

The least expensive place I have found for woodenware are the Amish crafters (and being from Indiana possibly there might be some within driving distance from you if you are lucky.)


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## BeeSquared (Jun 29, 2009)

Here's what BetterBee's starter kit comes with:

2 Hive Bodies, unassembled 
20 Frames, deep, unassembled 
20 sheets deep Crimp-wired Foundation 
2 Supers, medium, unassembled 
20 Frames, medium, unassembled 
20 sheets medium Crimp-wired Foundation 
160 Support Pins 
Bottom Board, assembled 
Entrance Reducer 
BeeMax Polystyrene Telescope Cover 
Inner Cover, assembled 
Polystyrene Hive Top Feeder 
Varroa Screen/Monitoring Tray 
Hard Plastic Helmet 
Round Tie-down Veil 
Stainless Steel Smoker w/Heat Shield 
10" Hive Tool 
Beginning Beekeeping Book 
Assembly Instructions 
Ventilated Leather Gloves 
Nails 

Am I to understand that a hive stand doesn't come with this kit? Is this a pretty standard thing for starter kits to exclude? Is okay that some of the components are plastic like the polystyrene hivetop feeder and cover? Is there anything in here that's really important to have to start out that I'm missing? Is there anything that's rediculous that I wont use at all? What is a crimp wired foundation? Do those get attached to the frames? Also, what is a Varroa Screen/Monitoring Tray? 

Is the list below worth paying an extra $50 for? I mean, I want to do it RIGHT, I just want to check to make sure. 



DRUR said:


> Cat.#	Wt.	Cost
> 
> 38-B	(5) empty medium depth supers (nails and instruct
> included) 28#	$054.00
> ...


Also, I'm wondering about what I'll drop each year on medication and honey extraction costs? (Until I save up enough for an extractor of my very own.)


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

personaly I like rossman...... cypress hives no paint needed...

Bought beemax this year.... wouldn't suggest them to a newbie....


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Basically the difference between the what I prepared $276.25 (before freight), and betterbee $259.99 (before freight, I didn't figure freight from better bee, apparently you can't until you order) and the freight a betterbee is unusually high. If you figure the freight I would guess you will pay a lot more in freight from betterbee.

In betterbee's list there is no bee brush, but my order has no feeder. Kelley's woodenware is the best, and 3 mediums supers are equal to 2 deeps, so the boxes are about the same. I have heard complaints about the BeeMax not being durable, and I called and asked and they confirmed that they are not as durable as the wood. I previously purchased $10.00 light item from betterbee and they charged me $17.00 freight which this could have been mailed usps for $4.90 priority mail (I checked the postage). I have heard/seen complaints about their woodenware, but I have no knowledge of this. Run a search on consumer report forum and see if you can find anything on betterbee. 

The frames (plastic) are small cell, which is what I use, and most people I know on small cells don't treat, I hope that's the case for me because I don't intend to. Commercial beeks tell me you will spend about $100.00 per year treating and after 3 years the mites will be immune and you will lose your colonies anyway 50% of the time.

Go to Michael Bush's site http://www.bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm and read about beekeeping philosophy. This is a decision you need to make, but you sure need to talk to both sides. I am just getting started back, after 25 years out of beekeeping, and before the mite problem. So any help I can give you take with a grain of salt. 

I like all equipment the same (Mediums vs. deeps/mediums), because then all boxes are interchangable. Deeps also weigh more than I care to carry, 90 pounds for a deep full of honey vs about 60 for a medium, but a deep full of brood does not weigh this much. You should decide what you want to do before you purchase. Saves a little in the long run.

Lot of stuff to consider, and also I didn't ask, when you plan to get your bees, this year seems late for your location, but ask a local beek.

Good luck


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

I did a search on this site for betterbee. Try these and you will get an idea.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=434491&highlight=betterbee#post434491

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=424096&highlight=betterbee#post424096

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=335769&highlight=betterbee#post335769


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

BeeSquared said:


> Also, I'm wondering about what I'll drop each year on medication and honey extraction costs? (Until I save up enough for an extractor of my very own.)




Okay, do this Go to "long lane honeybee farms" he is in Central Il, and look at his basic kit, cheaper, and you could buzz over and pick it up on a sunday afternoon...

http://www.honeybeesonline.com/servlet/Categories?category=Start+Up+Kits


Tell him I sent ya! he will add 100 to the bill!

Dave is a fantastic guy and an hour with him will be worth the drive time.....

Buy the way, on your list if it were me... switch to 2 deeps and 2 supers.... bees do better here in the midwest in deeps..... and drop the goatskin gloves... darn things are in the way anyhow...


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## BeeSquared (Jun 29, 2009)

DRUR said:


> I like all equipment the same (Mediums vs. deeps/mediums), because then all boxes are interchangable. Deeps also weigh more than I care to carry, 90 pounds for a deep full of honey vs about 60 for a medium, but a deep full of brood does not weigh this much. You should decide what you want to do before you purchase. Saves a little in the long run.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck






gmcharlie said:


> Buy the way, on your list if it were me... switch to 2 deeps and 2 supers.... bees do better here in the midwest in deeps.....


Will I ever really need to carry two deeps? You only usually carry the supers, right? Will it be a hassle to have two different sizes like this? I def want to use what they'll do best in if it makes a difference.





DRUR said:


> Lot of stuff to consider, and also I didn't ask, when you plan to get your bees, this year seems late for your location, but ask a local beek.
> 
> Good luck


I'm going to get my bees online, but I'm not placing the order til Nov. so I'll get them in the spring. I want to be as knowledgeable as I can before I get started.


I want to get a hive top feeder for sure, so which one would you recommend if I go with the list you previously posted? And as far as that BetterBee kit, I'm gathering that you don't think it's as good of quality as the Mann Lake items, correct?



Dave's price: $179

"This is a completely assembled and painted beehive! Comes with a unpainted screened bottom board with entrance reducer, 2 painted Deep Supers each with 10 deep wooden frames each, fully assembled, with plastic foundation installed, 1 painted medium honey super each with 10 medium wooden frames, fully assembled, with plastic foundation installed, 1 Inner cover with vent hole, 1 painted telescoping top Cover, WITH METAL COVERING--28 gauge steel! All the boxes include metal frame rests, making it easier to remove the frames for inspection and to harvest your honey. Made of 1" #2 pine (which actually measures 3/4".) Super, bottom board, inner and outer cover are routed rabbet joints and have been glued and nailed." 

It sounds like I'll still need an extra super, hive top feeder, and the smoker, veil, and gloves if I go with this kit. It doesn't seem as though I'd be saving any money here?

p.s. I'm really surprised I didn't find a thread like this already going when I got here...aren't these fairly common questions from us noobs?


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

BeeSquared said:


> p.s. I'm really surprised I didn't find a thread like this already going when I got here...aren't these fairly common questions from us noobs?



Here. 


MM


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

You might want to look into dealing locally like Charlie said, especially if he is close. And I bet if you decide to go with all mediums that he will accommondate you there also. Gmcharlie, is a smart guy, he is local, give a good ear to him. Your deeps will be used as brood boxes so they won't be as heavy as 90# probably more like 70, but yes when you will remove the top deep to check the bottom deep, but you won't move it far. The thing with me on all mediums is all the equipment is interchangable. Ask others about feeders or do a search just on those, there was a recent thread on those. Do your research, Michael Bush's site will be most helpful, but adjust his recommendations for your plans. Make your decision on small or large cells.


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm kind of an oddball, but I run one deep and then either one or two mediums for the brood chamber. I find the flexibility of moving anything into the broodchamber that comes my way, (from purchased nucs to frames of honey from supers) outweighs the gains of standardized sizes. Having the deep on the bottom also means I never have to lift it. To each their own though.


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## letsrodeo (Jun 6, 2009)

round and round we go Im gettin dizzy:scratch:


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

iwombat said:


> I find the flexibility of moving anything into the broodchamber that comes my way, (from purchased nucs to frames of honey from supers) outweighs the gains of standardized sizes.


Yes but when using deep nuc frames just use 2 medium boxes (temporarily). I would just move the queen down on mediums after they were started good and keep her there with a queen excluder. As you pull the deep nuc frames place another medium from in the lower box. Everything works if you give it a chance; but I used deeps and mediums for years, and sometimes it is a pain in the butt when you want to move equipment from one to the other, like my suggestion on installing a deep nuc in medium equipment above. Charlie claims they winter better in deeps up north, I have no experience regarding that.


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

letsrodeo said:


> round and round we go Im gettin dizzy:scratch:


I think the bottom line is figure out what YOU want to do. The bees will like anything you give 'em. After your first year or two re-assess and make adjustments.


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## letsrodeo (Jun 6, 2009)

iwombat said:


> I'm kind of an oddball, but I run one deep and then either one or two mediums for the brood chamber.


this is most likley the way I will be goin I am buildin all the boxes my self and buyin the frames they look a little teadyes . but for now i am havein fun with it learnin alot gettin ready for sping of 10.


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## Beekeeper's hubby (Jun 5, 2009)

I live in central Indiana and can build boxes and frames. just over an hour away.


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## dsquared (Mar 6, 2006)

Before you buy anything, hook up with your local beekeeping club. You need a mentor or mentors. Most beekeepers who have been at it a while, have extra equipment laying around. Some of its is a little beat up, but it works. I've given away dented smokers, veils that needed a patch or two, hive bodies that needed some cosmetic work and other stuff to help people get started. I showed the same courtesy that other beekeepers showed me when I got started. You can blow a lot of money if you aren't careful. Good luck!


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

letsrodeo said:


> round and round we go Im gettin dizzy:scratch:


Well, what do you expect when you get on a merrygoround? 

There are many 'Right' ways of doing things, and most all will work. But it sure doesn't hurt to get imput from different sources, with consideration to the logic behind the different management techniques, which is what we are talking about here. The best thing one can do is take it all in, make a logical conclusion based upon all the information given, develope a plan that you can live with and that best suits your personality.

If, things don't appear to be working like you hoped, gather more information, analyze the problem and make adjustments. But even when gathering information from trusted beeks, realize we all have an opinion and it may differ from others which are just as applicable. There is not always (but sometimes), just one way to do things. This is why beekeeping can be so inspiring and exciting, and often the mentor can learn from his student, take Ross for example.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Here's what BetterBee's starter kit comes with:
>2 Hive Bodies, unassembled
I would not use ten frame boxes nor deeps, so I'd buy eight frame mediums.

>20 Frames, deep, unassembled
See above.

>20 sheets deep Crimp-wired Foundation
This will be 5.4mm and I want 4.9mm...

>2 Supers, medium, unassembled
Again, I want eight frame mediums. 10 frame mediums weight about 60 pounds full of honey and eight frame mediums weigh about 45.

>20 Frames, medium, unassembled
>20 sheets medium Crimp-wired Foundation
Again I'd go for the 4.9mm or do foundationless

>160 Support Pins
I wouldn't use them.

>Bottom Board, assembled
You may want a screened bottom board. Of course I want an eight frame bottom board.

>Entrance Reducer
Any old block of wood will work...

>BeeMax Polystyrene Telescope Cover
I use a flat cover.

>Inner Cover, assembled
I don't use them.

>Polystyrene Hive Top Feeder
You can just tip the solid bottom board back and feed by pouring syrup on the bottom.

>Varroa Screen/Monitoring Tray
Nice idea. But only if you have a SBB.

>Hard Plastic Helmet
Don't use them, don't like them. I prefer the English hood style jacket.

>Round Tie-down Veil
Haven't used one in years. I use the jacket.

>Stainless Steel Smoker w/Heat Shield
I prefer the bigger ones.

>10" Hive Tool
I prefer the Italian ones. I got rid of this style years ago.

>Beginning Beekeeping Book
What book?

>Assembly Instructions
Good to have. 

>Ventilated Leather Gloves
I wear regular gloves tucked into the jacket sleeves. I prefer them as they are quicker to get on and off.

>Am I to understand that a hive stand doesn't come with this kit?

Hardly anyone uses them. Usually they set the bottom on bricks.

> Is this a pretty standard thing for starter kits to exclude?

Sure.

> Is okay that some of the components are plastic like the polystyrene hivetop feeder and cover?

That depends on how you feel about plastic...

> Is there anything in here that's really important to have to start out that I'm missing?

Theres nothing there I'd buy.

> Is there anything that's rediculous that I wont use at all?

All of it?

> What is a crimp wired foundation?

The wire zig zags which distributes the stress and the wires are already in the foundation.

> Do those get attached to the frames?
They are bent over the wedge at the top and protrude through the split bottom.

> Also, what is a Varroa Screen/Monitoring Tray?
A tray that goes under a screened bottom board so you can count the number of mites that fall.

>Is the list below worth paying an extra $50 for?

There's nothing on the list I'd buy.

> I mean, I want to do it RIGHT, I just want to check to make sure.

>Also, I'm wondering about what I'll drop each year on medication

I spend nothing on medication. I would recommend spending nothing on it.

> and honey extraction costs?

I did crush and strain for the first 28 years and did not spend anything on extraction.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> Any old block of wood will work...
> I use a flat cover.
> I don't use them.
> You can just tip the solid bottom board back and feed by pouring syrup on the bottom.
> ...




A word to the wise is sufficient. If, I could choose a 'mentor' it would be Michael Bush, yet I might not do everything his way.


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