# No treatment-mites win



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Well, I gave it a try but it isn't working out, no treatment that is. I started a new yard this spring with 12 hives, all Italian package bees. Decided to go treatment free and see what happens. Let them build all their comb in medium depth foundationless frames. All the hives built out 3-4 boxes each, but didn't give me much surplus honey, mainly because all the nectar they brought in was used for brood rearing, and building comb. I fed them sugar syrup when I first hived the packages for about 2 weeks, but then stopped because a good flow commenced. Never monitored mites in this yard, didn't matter because I was not going to treat anyways, this was an experiment. Hives were full of bees, queens laying good patterns all summer and into fall, until I checked on them the last couple days. Out of the 12 hives, only three hives have enough bees in them to fill one medium box per hive. The rest of the hives are down to 1-3 frames of bees. All hives still have their queens(I visually saw them), most hives have a couple frames that still have a dozen or two very scattered capped worker brood cells, I think the brood is dead inside. Some cells have pinholes in the center. Very little capped honey in any of the hives, lots of pollen though. On the outside of the hives on the ground in front of the entrances there are large numbers of freshly dead bees, I mean lots of them actually. The yellow jackets are having a feast. What's amazing is that the activity at all the entrances looks totally normal, lots of bees coming and going, even bringing in much pollen yet, even this late in the season. I'm thinking that all the activity could be mostly robbers though. I'll bet that if I would not have looked in these hives for a couple more weeks, there may not have been anything left in most of them, CCD, PMS, whatever you want to call it, it beat me in this yard.


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## PerryBee (Dec 3, 2007)

Sorry to hear about the loss. 
I have heard of a few folks who have gone the "cold turkey" route to no treatment and it always seems to result in catastrophic losses for the first few years. Not something many can stomach (or afford).
I have stopped using treatments as much as possible but when it gets to "do or die", I do.
Kudos for trying. :thumbsup:

Perry


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for the condolences PerryBee, what I am surprised about is how they collapsed the first year from packages. I have another yard that has hives in their second season from packages, and still doing well, even though they have mites to some degree. I guess every year is different on how well the mites get established. I had a feeling this year might be good for mites because we had a near perfect season flow-wise, and the weather has stayed warm late into the fall, allowing the queens to continue to lay longer than normal, thus building the mites up further. When brood rearing ceased, the mites all jumped onto the bees and did them in quick.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

???

You say the mites win, but did you actually have a mite problem?

Lots of dead bees outside the hive _probably_ indicates robbing. They could also be mite infested brood that the bees have dragged out.

No surplus honey (I take that to mean capped stores) all year? Were the bees simply weak/hungry/nosema/TM/Virus and got robbed out to the bone? Was 12 hives in one yard too many for the late fall flow to support?

I'm not saying you didn't/don't have a mite problem, but nothing in your description indicates that you do/did.

deknow


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Sorry you had such an expensive lesson/experience. Next time do not add supers until they use what they have. For example, you say they had 3 - 4 supers each. I would not put the second on until the first was 70 to 80 percent used. Straight Italians are not the most hygeinic and have not developed behaviors to combat the current threats, since the US Italian gene pool has been in isolation since 1922. There are a few comedies and horror stories of what 88 years inbreeding does to families. VSH, SMR, Minnesota Hygeinic and Buckfast tolerate mites well. There are several natural treatments for mites like screened bottom boards, sugar dusting, grease patties, etc. Large kills like you describe in front of the hives could be as simple as insecticides.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

deknow, the dead bees outside the hive were not in the brood stage, they were adults. I frequently go to this yard and I have never witnessed any fighting going on at the entrances, as a matter of fact, about 1 1/2 months ago I reduced the entrances down to only a couple inches at the end of the fall flow to enable the bees to defend better in case of robbing. They did have capped honey earlier on in the summer, but like I said I did not get what I would call surplus honey because I used three mediums for brood, and only a few hives got into building out comb in a fourth box. The area will support many more than 12 hives, plenty of goldenrod, aster, boneset to work. Looks like the work of mites to me.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

AmericasBeekeeper, these are not honey supers but brood chambers I am talking about, I think that for them to build out 3-4 mediums full of comb in foundatonless frames is really not too bad for one season. At one time all these frames were full of honey, pollen and brood. I didn't feed them much syrup either, so most of the comb was drawn using nectar, thus I didn't get a surplus, which is not surprising to me, that's what I expected would happen. As for insecticide kill, no way it was that in my area. So obviously, if I want to continue with bees and not have to replace them every year I will have to make changes, such as using more resistant genetics, and some type of treatment.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

It is not unusual for Italians to go through a whole super or two of honey in August. When the super is empty of food and brood, it needs to be removed so the bees can protect and ventilate without exceeding remaining resources.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Just to clarify something because someone seemed surprised at how these hives had virtually no capped stores left. Our fall flow ended about 1 1/2 months ago more or less, and the bees have been existing on the stored honey since then. The warm weather even up till last week has allowed the bees to fly about foraging later than normal into the fall, so they are using up stores meant for winter and not adding to them. Robbing undoubtedly cost most of the hives recently also, because the population of the hives were too small(because of PMS) to adequately defend themselves. Many other beekeepers have noticed the same thing happening and reported it here on this forum back some time ago.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

AmericasBeekeeper, you are absolutely right, that is pretty much what happened, I think robbing contributed to the rapid diminishing of stores too. They went through way more stores after the flow than I would have imagined possible.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Another thing, with three mediums on each hive, when I looked in the other day virtually every hive's bottom two boxes were empty of honey and bees, just pollen present in quantity, the small clusters were situated in the third box up with some uncapped honey and a little capped. I know I should have kept a closer eye on them, I thought I was actually, just amazing how fast they crashed.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Unless I count mites or have so many that it's not worth counting, I wouldn't assume mites. When hives die from mites I find thousands of dead mites on the bottom board with the thousands of dead bees. If you do a sugar shake or a mite drop you can get a measurement. If a cup of bees has four or five mites, you have a significant amount, but not enough to collapse a hive. If you have from ten to fifty, you have problems. If you have that many you have a hive that will collapse soon. Facts are much more useful than assumptions. Another thing I'd look into is cell size. What did you end up with in the core of the broodnest. A first regression tends to be about 5.1mm to 5.2mm and that often has not been sufficient to control Varroa.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

MB, I will be taking a closer look at the bottom boards soon, they are still on the hives with the small clusters, I assume they won't last much longer. I'm assuming it is mites, no evidence of brood disease, just some scattered capped worker cells, I did uncap a few cells and dragged out the bees, they seemed to be just about ready to emerge, no DWV on the few I checked. As far as cell size, I will check some tomorrow as I brought home some empty brood boxes today from the yard.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I don't treat with anything and I have had some loses, but for all 12 hives to die or nearly die even before winter does not sound like mites. Sometimes it is hard to say why a hive died ,but it is impossible to do if you or not able to see the hive. If you decide to try not treating again use some local bees that have overwintered instead of packages.


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

Without seeing your bees or brood frames, it's hard to make a determination as to what killed them. Again, without mite levels being monitored, it's tough to say that it was mites that did them in.

When I went treatment free, it was a tough road to travel. I suffered severe losses the first year. The second year, I obtained survivor stock and my losses, while still high, weren't as bad. Now, I'm treatment free and have a near 100% survivability rate.

My take-away lesson from that first year is that bees that are medication dependent CANNOT be taken off the medication treadmill cold turkey without losses. And sometimes, those losses can be huge, depending on their dependence.

DS


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

BigDaddy, could it be that your non resistant bees were lost, and you now have resistant ones? Either by buying them or just whatever was around?

I've heard this medication thing before, it doesn't make sense to me.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Well, if it wasn't mites, a brood disease, poisoning, or starvation, then what do you suppose would take down 9 out of 12 strong hives hives (may end up 12 out of 12) in such a short time period in the fall? Are tracheal mites a problem in the fall? I thought it was only in the winter that hives would succumb to them.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

scdw43, colonies can and do collapse from heavy mite loads in the fall in addition to winter. I admit I am at a disadvantage here because I do not use screened bottom boards with sticky boards underneath to monitor mites counts, however what I am seeing seems like classic symptoms of high mite loads going into winter. I will examine my bottom boards closely when I pull some of them today to see if they are covered in dead mites.


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## hipbee (Sep 11, 2009)

I am having luck chemical free with fat bee mans bees(I use SBB, foundationless, and powderd sugar) but I tried some B Weaver bees this year and they are so covered with mites you can pull a frame and just about every bee is crawling with them. they are doomed im sure as there are only about three frames of bees left. Im no expert but id say it has alot to do with cell size. fat bee mans bees build 4.9 consistantly, the b weavers build mostly 5.2 in the center of the frames and even bigger around the outside. but it is hard to tell because I also purchased some nucs that were daughters of glenn apiarys vsh queens, they built mostly 5.1 to 5.2mm and there mite load isnt as bad as the B Weavers.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I just checked some of the foundationless brood frames that came out of the hives that are crashing and the cell size is consistent at about 5.1-5.2. Not small enough to have an effect on mites yet, like MB said above, I need to regress them further down closer to 4.9.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

jmgi, I am really sorry about your loss. I hope your post mortem reveals the cause/causes for the death of the hives. Reports and studies indicate mites can take down a hive this time of year.

For those considering going treatment free for mites, you simply must realize, your success is almost totally dependent upon the bees you start with. To succeed with minimum to no losses, you must start with resistant bees. There are more and more breeders providing resistant bees now. Ask your provider if they treat for mites in their program. If they do, any treatments at all, do not buy from them. Get your bees elsewhere. That is, IF you want to be treatment free. If you don't mind treating, even soft treatments, it doesn't matter where you get your bees. But to go treatment free, you simply must start with treatment free/resistant bees. Several of us here on the forum have done so, with success. I myself am 6 years into my program, never a treatment of any kind for mites, and absolutely NO losses to mites. 

Regards,
Steven


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

jmgi said:


> ...what I am seeing seems like classic symptoms of high mite loads going into winter.


i think it is entirely possible that mites were an issue. with that said, piles of dead adult bees outside of 12 collapsed colonies is not a classic symptom of high mite loads going into winter.

without knowing anymore than what you have posted thus far, my bet would go for a pesticide incident (12 colonies collapsing at the same time with piles of dead adult bees out front).

i also agree with michael...when i have had colonies collapse from mites, there have been tons of dead bees _inside_ the hive, and mites were clearly visible on a large number of bees (varroa are pretty big and easy to see in such a situation..it is not subtle)....there was nothing ambiguous about it...also, dwv is usually obvious before and during a mite colapse (at least in my experience up here in massachusetts).

dead bees out front could also be a sign of virus...which _could_ be vectored by mites...but 12 hives collapsing at once is a bit out of what one would expect from a normal virus outbreak.

i'd be surprised if any observant beekeeper would have 12 colonies collapse at once from PMS without noticing shriveled wings and an abundance of mites.

deknow


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

jmgi said:


> however what I am seeing seems like classic symptoms of high mite loads going into winter.


As Dean said, a classic sign of high mites is deformed wings, crawlers with K wings. If you're not seeing this, I doubt this was caused by mites.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

After looking at several of the bottom boards today on the dwindling colonies there may very well be something else going on here besides mites. First off, the bottoms were not covered with lots of dead bees as others have suggested in a severe mite case, actually they were very clean of debris and dead bees, yes, there were a few but that's it. I examined the bottoms with a large magnifying glass and there were some dead mites but nowhere near what I expected would be there. Most bottoms had maybe one mite for every three square inches, only one bottom had maybe twice that. I extracted some dead bees from the capped cells and they were virtually all adults and had no deformed wings, no mites on them either. 
These hives are on private airport property which is patrolled very well, 10 ft. fences all around property, nobody is on the property who shouldn't be there, no homes nearby, very secluded location, so to think that someone poisoned them intentionally is out of the question, at least for me. I have pieces of plywood on the ground in front of every hive to keep the weeds down, it is on these boards that I have noticed large amounts of dead bees that look as if they have only been there a couple weeks at most. There are more dead bees also further away from the newer bees, but they are much more decomposed and most likely died much earlier in the summer. I visit this yard at least once every two weeks and I don't remember seeing DWV on any bees. This is not an agricultural area, so poisoning from that is out of the question also. Nothing would have been sprayed this late in the season anyways, even in an agricultural area, so we need to put poisoning to rest. Starvation is not the cause because all hives had uncapped honey, pollen, and most had a couple frames at least of partially capped honey near the clusters. The weather has been cold at night lately, but the daytime temps have been in the 50's at least so moving to new stores was not a problem.
When I put it all together, I'm really at a loss as to what is doing this now. Thanks for all your inputs. John


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## lenny bee (Oct 29, 2010)

Just a thought, In Ludington Michigan we have a small airport. And along the runway they keep a 25 ft. clearing on each side. In case of deer ect.
They cut first then spray a weed killer. With the winds blowing like they do in Mich. I'm sure the spray goes out ferther than it should. Not enough to kill more plants but enough to leave a residue on them that can be brought back to hive over time and build up till it takes effect. . . I know this is a reach. 
I hope you get a handle on this problem and move forward.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jmgi said:


> All hives still have their queens(I visually saw them), most hives have a couple frames that still have a dozen or two very scattered capped worker brood cells, I think the brood is dead inside.
> 
> ... lots of pollen though.


Is the brood dead? Do you see bees dying as they emerge, some with their tongues out? Look in the core of the broodnest where most of the brood it. Pull those dead bees out and look. What do you see?

Lots of pollen..too much actually...is a symptom of pms.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Michael,

It appeared to me that the brood in the scattered capped cells was already dead when I pulled out the frames to examine them. Some cells had already been uncapped with the pupal stage bee still inside. A few cells had pinholes in the center of the capping. Several of the cells had adult bees halfway out of the cells, then they appeared to have died that way. Either that or the colony was attempting to remove some of the dead brood and dispose of it, I'm not sure what was going on there. These frames came right out of the center of the broodnest and were the only frames left with clustered bees and the queen. Why would too much pollen indicate possible pms? John


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Some uncapped brood cells, with brood patchy, & emerging bees dead 1/2 way out sounds like PMS. Standard scenario in a hive that has been killed by mites.

You don't HAVE to have DWV to indicate varroa. DWV is a virus that may or may not be present in a hive infested with varroa. It is the other way around though, a lot of dwv DOES indicate varroa because without varroa DWV only affects a tiny amount of bees, almost non existant if varroa are not present. DWV has been present in behives for probably thousands of years and bees are pretty resistant to it, if they are not interfered with by varroa mites.

BTW I'm not saying the hive was killed by mites, thus far not enough information. Just that part of the puzzle fits, but poisoning or who knows, could also have happened.

Now, a question for M Bush & DeKnow, you both mention your experiences with dead outs caused by mites. I know you guys are both treatment free and have been very interested in your writing especially M Bush. Anyhow the question, you both obviously still lose the odd hive to mites, and it can therefore be assumed some other hives don't actually die but suffer in some way. How do you both feel being treatment free affects your honey production?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jmgi said:


> Several of the cells had adult bees halfway out of the cells, then they appeared to have died that way.
> 
> Why would too much pollen indicate possible pms? John


John, the dead bees emerging is exactly what I see in pms colonies. Pull a few of them. They will have stunted, flat little abdomens and some with dwv wings.

The pollen thing...I've wondered about this. In pms colonies, the bees seem to fill the core of the broodnest with pollen. Nearly every cell will contain pollen. Some scattered sealed brood will be present, and maybe a few cells of nectar/honey. This is what I see in colonies crashing from varroa. 

Why is a good question that I can't answer. What would be the biology of filling the broodnest with pollen, eliminating any possible brood rearing. Wouldn't you think the bees would do the opposite? Perhaps they are also eliminating further varroa reproduction? Perhaps that is so, but since I don't believe bees think, WHY is the question.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Michael,

But what about not finding that many varroa on the bottom board, and very few dead bees on the bottom also? That doesn't seem to fit PMS according to some who have seen it. John


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

When I went no treatment 8 years ago, I put them on small cell foundation and all splits made also went on small cell. This is the first year I allowed splits go natural cell. Also, each hive had a differed queen at the beginning. I had one each of Russian, Italian, buckfast, minn. Hygenic, and all American. From that, I let them raise their own queens. Next year is the first year I'll try grafting from my strongest hive. This seems to have worked for me. 

However, I am really concerned about this winter as I've been feeding off and on since July. This is the first year I have had to feed due to drought in the area.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

MP: The pollen storage would coincide with another trait of mite stressed bees which is for the queens to lay at a far higher rate than they normally would in the early fall in an apparent attempt to try to overcome the population depletion. Perhaps this additional pollen in the brood nest would be what might be normally used for the amount of eggs layed but because of the shortage of healthy nurse bees it never gets utilized.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> The pollen thing...I've wondered about this...
> Why is a good question that I can't answer. What would be the biology of filling the broodnest with pollen...


my understanding is that there is a feedback loop of sorts. small amounts of pollen (or beebread, or "brood food"...i can't remember which off the top of my head...protein in any case) are fed to the foraging force, and the protein they receive (probably in relation to other factors, like open cells, open brood, seasonal cues, etc) informs the foragers of the protein needs of the colony, which results in some portion of the foraging force going after pollen rather than nectar.

my guess is that there are some circumstances (PMS being one of them) where this feedback loop is broken (perhaps the nurse bees are too busy caring for brood to feed the foraging force the small amount they should)...and the foraging force "thinks" there is not enough protein (pollen) in the colony. it could also be the case that proper processing of the pollen isn't happening (beebread has twice the water soluble protein than unfermented pollen), and the bees just aren't seeing the protein they need.

regardless, i'd also think about nosema C. as a possibility, and perhaps even tracheal mites. mites may well be a factor here, but the collapse of 12 colonies in the same yard at once, and piles of dead bees OUTSIDE the hive suggests (to me, at least) more than just a mite problem.

deknow


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

kbfarms,

I have been very concerned about the winter stores situation in my area since way back in the early summer, because I could see that with the season being so far ahead of itself (because of the early warm weather) compared to what is normal, we stood a good chance of having the fall flowers blooming much earlier than normal, then having a prolonged drought in terms of nothing coming in after the fall flow. The bees have been flying daily for 1 1/2 months with virtually nothing to forage on in my area, so they are rapidly depleting their stores, and I think the queens were laying way longer too. I have been feeding my colonies for a couple months now and they keep taking it. I think alot of starvation is in the cards this winter unless beeks have been keeping close tabs on their bees as far as food supplies. John


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

....this is somewhat OT, but a good example of what happens when a feedback loop is broken.

ramona used to work for a company making tote bags. the owner was the first (i think) to come up with the 80's trend of printed shoelaces (piano keyboards, hearts, etc).

a relative of the owners husband had a factory where the shoelaces were made. demand was high and these things were selling like hot cakes (mmmm, hotcakces).

then came the deadly mistake....the owner tells the factory to "keep running them...don't stop".

needless to say, the manufacturer kept churning them out until the sudden realization that the factory had not stopped, and there were unfathonable pairs of printed shoelaces....and an even less fathonable bill...and not enough money to pay for it all.

out of business, long term family disputes and more.

the broodnest (available capital) was filled with printed shoelaces to the point of colapse...which the company did.

deknow


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

you might want to look at the queens in the package, sound similar to one of my apiaries last year. I took different actions and we have different weather but appears to be the same. and I did treat for mites and nosema.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237202&highlight=wilbanks


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

I had one colony that I did not treat last season or this season at all. It came through winter very strong but when I split boxes I seen mites in drone brood that broke apart by the hundreds. This colony started going south in june and by fall was more or less toast. It had mites so bad that it could not raise any brood at all. I gave it apistan in september and after three weeks it was finally able to raise brood and I gave it some honey and pollen patties. It was still raising brood two weeks ago when It was warm enough for me to check on it. I gave it some honey and hope it will luck out and be around come spring.

That said I believe that there is something to bees being able to cope with mites if enough colonies are used to start with and given some time. There are too many people out there who have done it and still have bees ten years later. I think (guess) that it must be a combination of the mite and the bees both evolving to coexist. I give trying a treatment free yard thought but I only have one yard that I think is isolated enough to keep the genes responsible for survival and I dont want to give that yard up to the mites.

It would be nice to see a very large area or a reserve established where the treatment free philosophy could be tried on a larger scale (like 100 miles in diameter) and without pollution or at least a minimum of it from other stock that is being treated. It would be truly amazing to me to see what would come of it in ten, fifteen, twenty years.


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