# Q's about non-chemical varroa management



## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I got a lead to Kirk's website from another post on this forum. This is an interesting article and he has many others as well. I personally do not have the time, space or resources to try this at his level but I will employ some of the techniques on a smaller scale. There must be a way to move from small scale treated hives to small scale untreated hives. Most will tell you to get local "survivor stock" but if they are not available then what do you do? Good luck.
http://kirkwebster.com/index.php/a-...moving-all-treatment-from-commercial-apiaries


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Something that will help a lot is moving to small[er] cell comb or foundationless. The smaller the workers are, the greater the chance that the varroa will go after the drone rather than worker brood. Commensurate to that is the replacement of treated comb. You must restore the natural microbiota of the hive. A colony is not simply a collective organism, but a super organism made up of bees, bacteria, fungi, and who knows what else.

After that, my primary method is to split as much as possible so you have a greater number of hives from which to develop your own local survivor stock. Increase the chances of developing a resistant line.

Don't rely on gadgets and gimmicks to help your bees out with disease. They may help at the outset, but in the long run, they should be entirely unnecessary.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Read what StevenG has done. He seems to have taken the most logical approach.

Crazy Roland


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Mig, I would just take out the queen and make a nuc with her. Then I let the hive make a new queen from eggs or larvae. That takes them about 30 days before the new queen starts laying, which is long enough to disrupt the mite cycle. Why not try to overwinter a couple of nucs with the older queens that way, rather than recombining later?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

ccar2000 said:


> I got a lead to Kirk's website from another post on this forum.


If you read Kirk's articles, try to grasp what he's trying to say. I know he talks about his Russian bees and him not treating in 10+ years, but from the horse's mouth...it's not about the bees in his case...it's about his management scheme.

Kirk's success is based on his use of nucleus colonies, not his stock. Personally, I think his stock is poor. Swarmy, nasty, and they die en mass every other year or so. This past winter for instance...he lost all his drone mother colonies and many of his apiaries. With such losses, how can he continue.

Nucleus colonies, due to some dynamic, don't have to be treated. Even those made from untreated brood and relatively high mite counts...as long as PMS hasn't left the brood sick. These will build up for winter and come through in good shape. They are then used to restock coonies that have crashed.

Kirk talks about the 3 sides of his operation...production colonies, nucleus colonies, and mating nucleus colonies. Production colonies give up breeder queens which are used to raise queens in the mating nucs. The queens from the mating nucs are used to make up 4/8 frame nucs for wintering. These nucs replace dead-outs. The only side of the three that has problems with varroa are the production hives. With ample supplies of nucleus colonies, you can approach beekeeping with a treatment free or a reduced treatment plan. 

So, there is a way to keep bees treatment free. It's not the bees, it's the managenment.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Yes, I agree it is about the management style. The challenge for me is applying it to a small scale backyard apiary. My goal as a hobbyist is to maintain two healthy hives and to be keeping bees, not having the bees keep me. My current thought and path of travel is purchasing two “treatment free queens” and splitting my two hives, one new queen in a new nuc and one old queen in a new nuc, doubling my chances of surviving the winter. I will treat the original two queens for Nosema only and leave the two nucs to survive. I will feel successful if I have one healthy hive out of the four in the springtime next year and will have my nuc boxes ready to try again. Ultimately I would like to get to where I can make walk away splits each summer in order to maintain no more than three hives at a time.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

I don't have a whole lot of knowledge of everyone else's operations, but for me, having about 15 hives, I like to pull the queen out of a hive and let them go queenless for a time, to allow all the brood to hatch. Once this happens I do a newspaper combine of a queenless hive and a mating nuc, that has a laying queen. The small population in the mating nuc doesn't have a large population of mites, and the queenless colony has had time to hunt down the varroa that are now left in the open, due to lack of sealed brood. There is a great article about it in the june or july american bee journal about how they do this type of management. Seems to be working so far for me.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

What do you do to move beyond that? I'd like to assume you wish you didn't have to do it, what comes next?


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

Solomon

Actually you assume wrong. The method of queenlessness that I use was used extensively by the killions to produce comb honey, before varroa. By pulling the queen, and a few frames of brood, and cutting out all queen cells, I can help control not only varroa, but also help reduce swarming of my hives.
This technique does get rid of 100 percent of mites, but rather it is just a step that I use to help. I also use screen bottom boards, and will do a powdered sugar dusting if my counts are up.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Do you want to continue doing it forever? Does it affect honey production?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Solomon, Read Killian's book. He is a nice and knowledgeable man. Timed properly, it can increase honey production if the broodless time occurs when the honey flow does. Less brood to feed means more honey surplus.

Crazy ROland


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

As always, I would be more than happy to read any book you send me.

On what kind of scale would you do this? Do you do it commercially?

I'm struggling to figure out how it is necessary.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

Solomon-

Roland is correct. Honey surplus can be increased if timed properly. I have 2 main benefits of this style management, along with a few unintended bonuses. The main benefit is reduced mite population due to lack of sealed brood, therefore they are in the open and cannot hide from the bees. The second benefit is the increase in the number of colonies that I get. By taking the queen out of the hive, along with a few frames of brood and honey and pollen, and putting them in a new box with drawn comb or foundation, I just made an increase split, allowing me to either keep the hive to put into my operation, or sell it as a populous nuc.
The unintended benefit is the increase in honey surplus. Less mouths to feed means more honey is stored. 
The Killions did do the queen removal commercially, as they produced thousands of pounds of comb honey annually. 
This type of management isn't necessary, but neither is puting loads of chemical miticides in the hive either. To each their own I guess.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm pretty sure I didn't question anyone's correctness. I'm questioning the necessity and perpetuity.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

I see your point. Is this something that can be used on hundreds or thousands of hives? Is it actually helping reduce mite loads? Is the surplus actually larger, or is the flow just better? Is it a sustainable practice? 
There are many, many questions to this management style. There are many answers that some people could give. I don't have answers to most of the questions, but the uncertainty does outweigh the certain.
What I do know is that I am not putting chemicals that kill insects into my hive of insects. My comb is thereby less contaminated with chemicals and my honey is less contaminated with chemicals. I can not control what the bees put into the hives, but I can control what I put into the hives.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A cut down split is intended to increase production by leaving them queenless for a time.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#cutdown

It is more work, but will make more honey.

Since going to small cell I haven't had any issues with Varroa and have done none of the above manipulations. My overwintering nucs are made up from my mating nucs not my hives.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I've noticed that no one mentioned the breed of the queen: VSH for example.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

I have mostly NWC queens, with some VSH and Italian stock mixed in there too


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Has anyone introduced bees from markedly VSH colonies into other colonies to achieve an effect similar to going queenless? For example, increasing honey production by brood removal due to VSH bees?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If you wish to make Basswood section comb honey on a commercial basis, as did Mr. Killian, it is advisable, and although not necessary, one of the best ways. We aware, that this is an intense style of beekeeping, and maybe not for a neophyte. 

Lets see, more honey, fewer mites. No chemicals. This is a bad thing? 

We have practiced this method most years for comb honey production, at least since the 50's. 

Crazy Roland


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

All of my colonies are foundationless. I do nothing for Varroa management other than let them have a prime swarm each spring. 

Matt


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

Cacklewack said:


> All of my colonies are foundationless. I do nothing for Varroa management other than let them have a prime swarm each spring.
> 
> Matt


this is the method i am following


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

Cacklewack said:


> All of my colonies are foundationless. I do nothing for Varroa management other than let them have a prime swarm each spring.
> 
> Matt


 Ok , I'll bite . What is a prime swarm ???

regards
Brad


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

A prime swarm is the first swarm a colony casts in the spring. About 50% of the adult bees and the queen leave with the prime swarm. The swarms that leave later with virgins that emerge are called afterswarms. My question is what does that do to your honey production? My colonies production are reduced by half or more if they swarm.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Same as breaking the brood cycle only without the extra honey side-benefit.


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

i beg to differ with ya i have taken 2 med supers off of 5 hives this year and will pull 1 more each in about 2 weeks before the golden rod flow


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

If you have ten hives don't treat them with anything, feed them if needed for the winter, make sure the hive has good ventilation, and let them go. In spring breed from the best. You might have 2/10 the first year, but you might have 9/10 alive the second. Breed from the best and nuc the rest. To get good bees you have to kill bad queens. I don't treat, I don't do counts, I have only given my bees sugar if they need it, the last 4 years, with no loses, the last two years. I have sold all of my equipment that anything was ever used in them. In my area bees will and can coexist with Beatles and mites if given the chance. Just my 2 cents


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

scdw43 said:


> In my area bees will and can coexist with Beatles and mites if given the chance. Just my 2 cents


Regarding the info above, just make sure you choose the correct albums/CD's e.g. "Sargent Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band", "Revolver" or "The White Album". :lpf:

I couldn't resist!

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

scdw43 said:


> If you have ten hives don't treat them with anything, feed them if needed for the winter, make sure the hive has good ventilation, and let them go. In spring breed from the best. You might have 2/10 the first year, but you might have 9/10 alive the second. Breed from the best and nuc the rest. To get good bees you have to kill bad queens. I don't treat, I don't do counts, I have only given my bees sugar if they need it, the last 4 years, with no loses, the last two years. I have sold all of my equipment that anything was ever used in them. In my area bees will and can coexist with Beatles and mites if given the chance. Just my 2 cents


Restarted with bees 6 years ago after a 30 year break,didnt know about mites ,beetles ,cdc ect.I just caught a swarm and it survived .made a split and did a few cutouts and caught more swarms.Now as i type i have 17 hives and 3 nucs and NO treatments. SPLITS FROM THE BEST AND SWARMS FROM LOCAL SURVIVERS IS MY METHOD AND IT SEEMS TO BEE WORKING.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

80% losses first year seems a bit high to me unless there are other factors. When I started with 20, on small cell foundation, no treatments, new equipment, I didn't reach 80% losses of the original stock for more than five years. Had I been splitting, I could have easily increased along the way, but I had way overreached equipment wise so I let the weak ones die out without replacing them. Then I moved.

If you go treatment-free on old treated comb and large cell at that, I suspect losses will be higher. Possibly much higher. It limits recoverability at the outset.


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## arcowandbeegirl (Oct 11, 2010)

On the green drone comb. My hives have wood frames with wired beeswax foundation. I put some green drone comb in to try it for varroa mite control, and they dont want to draw out the stuff. They have some in the middle and have put maybe 6 or so drones in it. I think I will order beeswax drone comb and try it in my wooden frames. I like the concept of this. I did powdered sugar dust 2 of my hives that had climbing mite counts. I am a new beekeeper, and while I understand that experienced beeks can do well without doing mite counts, but I need to do them to see what is going on. My hive that was smaller I was able to drop the 3 day mite count total from 43 to 15 after dusting. In my large hive the count kept on climbing. I am not sure why but I figure we didnt get them dusted good enough. So many bees and supers on that hive.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

NY_BLUES said:


> I see your point. [...] Is it a sustainable practice?
> There are many, many questions to this management style. There are many answers that some people could give. I don't have answers to most of the questions, but the uncertainty does outweigh the certain.


It depends what you mean by 'sustainable'. If you mean: does it work the way nature works, by continuously weeding out the vulnerable strains, so the each new generation is better equipped to deal with problems affecting health, then no. In fact *any* active management against varroa (except selection of the best, elimination of the weakest)frustrates the essential process of gaining mite-tolerant characteristics. 

If you mean: will it help the local feral population adapt to varroa, so the the natural process will be continually operating around me, sending good strong genes into my future generations through their drones, again no. *Any* active management scheme (except selection of the best, elimination of the weakest) will have the opposite effect. You will be killing off your local ferals by sending inadeqate genes into them

In nature, populations thrive by constantly being made from the fittest parents in each generation, eliminating the more unfit. And any kind of population husbandry has to follow the same rules - or the population cannot help but sicken. The failure to breed properly is modern beekeeping's great error - and the direct cause of our varroa problem. 

Don't be afraid of seeing your bees die - just try to make sure you have better ones to replace them. Go hard for survivors, or buy mite tolerant queens, get into breeding, and learn about the various indicators that signal mite tolerance. You don't want to be managing, you want bees that are equipped to manage themselves.

Mike


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> So, there is a way to keep bees treatment free. It's not the bees, it's the managenment.


It also helps if you have decent stock! Kirk works harder than he has to. I have not treated in 15 years. When I experienced losses like that back in 97, I sold out and took a few steps back. The mites were everywhere! Those were rough times. Now I stick with BWeaver, feral stock, and my own survivor mutts. If the mites look bad (and they haven't in a very long time) I just make a split. Most people I know who keep bees the way I do (Crowder, Comfort, Lusby, Bouffard) have not worried about varroa for some time. It is a non-issue. It also helps being down south. It is 110 out today, and we are in our seasonal dearth. It provides a low-brood few months when the mites have nowhere to hide. Diseases also have a hard time getting a foothold without the moisture. Treatment free in New England is a tricky matter.


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## New Ky Beekeeper (Jun 27, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> So, there is a way to keep bees treatment free. It's not the bees, it's the managenment.


I'm a believer in the management. I just hope I don't kill a bunch of bees in the education process.


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