# Given that you could design your own beehive, what would you do different?



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'd really like feedback from long term beekeepers on this question. We are pretty much stuck with Langstroth size equipment by default. 8 frame boxes are popular in some areas, 10 frame is used most places, 5 frame nucs are used by a lot of hobby beekeepers. Top bar equipment is used by some. If you really had your choice on changing beekeeping for the better, how would you modify the box? Frames?

Please say what you think even if it is that current sizes are good.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Please say what you think even if it is that current sizes are<<

You know, as far as the dimensional complaints made by many, the size can't change. It's like re organizing the key board, to do that requires a massive switch by everyone and anyone involved costing huge dollars and years to phase the old system out.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Square boxes, shorter frames (no thought yet on frame or box size)... Just w/b easier to build with all four sides of the hive the same size...


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## Great Bees (Aug 19, 2013)

Why fight it, use what is in front of you. I love the Langstroth hives they are so easy to use.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I have no qualms with the current langs. Perhaps a redesign of the frame rest and frame tab interface. There has got to be a better way to reduce pest hiding spots and propolus buildup, just havn't came up with an ideas yet, atleast without restraining the frames to a fixed position. Im thinking dowl rods or somekind of thin metal hanger, probably a dumb idea. 

I would like try eps or covered eps boxes. Should last a life time if coated in something durable, light weight, impervous to rot, plastic injection moldings could crank these out by the millions per year wost would be much lower. Already painted snap together ready to go. Plastic is cheap right?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Langstroth standard brood boxes are too heavy when full of honey for easy handling. They also have limitations when nectar flows are short and/or erratic. But my biggest objection is to having to keep two deep brood chambers on a colony to provide space for the queen to lay and for the bees to store honey for winter. Those two brood chambers wind up being 20 frames (22 frames in my case) that have to be examined to find the queen. These two brood chambers cost more to build and maintain. Then there is the wind throw problem. Langstroth size equipment is surprisingly easy for wind to blow over, especially if they are stacked 5 or more boxes high.

Contrast this with the dadant boxes Brother Adam used and recommended and you will see several failings rectified. The brood chamber has only 10 frames. These frames are large enough to sustain the most prolific queen. There are only 10 frames to examine to find the queen. Honey is produced in half height supers that are adaptable for short flows and are light enough to be handled by one man. This hive still suffers from possible wind throw. Note that I am not advocating this hive, just saying it has some advantages worth considering.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

we use langstroth in the 6 5/8 for brood and honey. any beekeeper that wants to reinvent the hive is wasting thier time. they end up with worthless equip with little value. much more practical to concentrate on good beekeeping practices.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Fusion_power said:


> Please say what you think even if it is that current sizes are good.


Current sizes and shapes are good. Maybe someone knowledgeable about ergonomics could come up w/ something better suited to the human body, but I imagine that would mean smaller units set up off the ground.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I used mediums for everything from brood chambers, to honey supers. Easier all the way around.

The ONE thing I did change on my supers is that they only have handholds on the front and back of the super. This keeps the weight closer to your body for easier handling and I work all my hives from the sides.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

snl said:


> Square boxes, shorter frames (no thought yet on frame or box size)... Just w/b easier to build with all four sides of the hive the same size...


I think the idea of square boxes is good one also, don't know why Langstroth decided to go with two unequal sides, I'm sure there was a reason back in the day.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Great Bees said:


> Why fight it, use what is in front of you. I love the Langstroth hives they are so easy to use.


I use all deeps it will keep ya young and fit lifting them all the time. I think the older you get the more you need to use your muscles . I won't lay down till I fall down then I may just get right back up.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I think a design that is able to cater for the various areas of beekeeping and to provide a pathway from hobbyist to commercial.

For example, a Nuc box that is exactly half the width of a full size box. Frames that are good for queen rearing and seeing brood patterns. Boxes that are not too heavy. Frames that can be held in one hand.

To me that means using a shorter frame.

A Short Deep frame that goes at right angles, across the width of a standard 10 frame deep rather than the length would have 13 of these frames to a standard box.

Half width boxes would have 6 Short Deep frames each. A good size for a Nuc. 
(Standard Half width boxes usually have 4 standard frames which is not quite wide enough.)

A full size box could be divided in to three sections with 4 frames each for queen rearing. Or even four sections with 3 frames each.

The box is compatible with standard 10 frame boxes, just that frames are at a right angle.

The downside is more frames per box...

You could even make a square box which would have 10 Short Deep frames and be lighter than a standard box. (A square box using standard frames would be way to big and heavy to carry.)

Just add a feeder to make the square box compatible with standard boxes.


I 'm currently working on some of these at the moment. Built the Nuc boxes already.
Maybe I'm wasting my time, but I'll see how I like them in comparison.

Also a top and bottom that is the same design. I already have them on my hives.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

GLOCK said:


> I think the older you get the more you need to use your muscles .


Muscles are not the problem, wear and tear on the joints are the problem. The more you use your muscles the better they get. The heavier you lift things the faster you joints will wear out. Bionic parts are not self repairing so they are no comparison to the original joints that you have.

I think what would help the bee industry is a strong plastic frame say made from glass filled nylon shaped like a wedge top without the wedge. The end bars could have the standard holes molded into them plus another hole at the top and bottom bar. The holes at the top and bottom would be used to put a wire that would catch the hooks of the foundation and support the foundation at the top and bottom bar (wedge type no wedge). 

Frames could be steam cleaned and the single wire snipped to replace foundation.

This could be done for wood frames also:
A metal part could be made like a crochet needle with a button head so it can be inserted into the holes of the end bars but not pass through. This would allow stringing up foundation with a single support wire without having to thread the wire through a hole. Installing foundation and wiring frames could be done in 1/10 the time it does now.

I can't see changes to the size and shape of the hive itself making much of an impact from what is standard today. The lifting of heavy hive components could be solved by machines and equipment much the same way it has been done in other industries.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

I think square box's would be the way to go 
Maybe some day a change just like when folks go to 8 frames they cut their 
10's down
You could make frames shorter and cut your lang down on one side and you'd have square

I do think the industry is to far into the "rectangle" to ever restructure


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

If I remember what I read properly, the original Langstroth design was made of double wall glass "boxes" that were square and somewhat deeper than what we use today, and honey was collected from shallow wooden boxes on top. Needless to say, that idea was abandoned rather quickly as it was NOT possible to move the hive assembled.

The current 10 frame deep is a derivation, shorter and with two frames missing so that it's not square -- after all, it's heavy enough full of honey I don't use them for honey, only brood chambers. A single chamber for the brood nest would be nice, but the weight gets you every time.

European hives -- there are a number of designs -- tend to be square, a bit deeper than Langstroth, and shorter, but the volume is still about the same and it's common to see several boxes used for the brood chamber.

I don't believe there is an overpowering reason to use anything but the "standard" hive wherever you are, whatever that is, so you can easily get and/or exchange equipment. Probably every size and combination of frames has been tried one time or another, and the collective wisdom in the US is Langstroth. Top bars are fine for a hobby, but harvesting large amounts of honey on top bars would, I think, be somewhat problematic for a commercial setup and moving them regularly isn't something I'd contemplate.

Peter


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Several suggestions for smaller square boxes ignore that these would be even more susceptible to wind throw. How would you keep them from blowing over?

There is also a question about weight. Commercial beekeepers who transport colonies around the country would not be happy if their trucks suddenly held fewer colonies. If you look at most of the colonies in almonds, they have either 1 single deep, a single deep with a shallow, or two deeps. This tells me the design of the hive has a serious deficiency for commercial use.

What about the guy who reverses hive bodies to break the honey dome, reduce swarming, and stimulate brood nest expansion? Does he really need 2 hive bodies to achieve this?

Then there are people like me with more or less permanent locations. My bees have been in the exact same places for 12 years. I do not normally move them anywhere so I could care less about weight of the brood box, all that matters is the honey supers. Would I be better off with a single deep brood chamber made square so I could fit in 14 frames?

Then there are the top and bottom. One note above suggests a single unit for both top and bottom. I think this is a good idea, but ignores some of the logistics and purpose of the telescoping cover. How do we get the efficiency of a migratory cover and the protection of a telescoping cover that can be used as either top or bottom?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dar,
A change in design doesn't have to satisfy or suit everyone.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I would change the depth to 9 and 7/16" so current off-the-shelf 1x10 boards could be used, instead of having to rip 1x12 down.

I would change the box long dimension to 19 and 5/8" so a full box could be cut from six foot running length. Current dimensions overrun 6' 

I would change mediums up to 7 7/16" so a off-the-shelf 1x8 could be used without ripping.

Have considered and rejected narrowing the dimension to 15 7/8 so standard sheet goods (4x8) could be ripped in thirds for covers.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I would think these small changes could be made relatively quickly across the industry if commercial beekeepers insisted on them with their supplier when they placed their next order. The big issue is already having equipment of different size. Probably not likely to ever change.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Standardization has brought us to where we are now. Introducing change has an economic impact to already existing operations. So, it seems to me that change would have to come from those starting out new. Or someone smallish who is willing to deal w/ different sizes of equipment.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I know my box builder very well, and it's interesting how much variability there is aside from the box and frames are. He builds tops and bottoms, pallets, bottom board pallets, inner covers, inner covers of inner covers, Nuc boxes, mating equipment, double queen arrangement equipment, and all made slightly differently from one beekeeper to the next. He says beekeepers basically run their hives the way they grew up with. That's the way my dad built the tops, it's the way I build my tops. Lol


But when it come to boxes, they all use the same kind of boxes to which fits the standard frames sold. He has also tweeted the frame construction itself to increase the tab strength but the dimensions remain the same. There are many slight differences in the construction of the boxes but the dimensions never changes. 

And in his mind, thank god there is some standardization.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> How would you keep them from blowing over?


There are a lot of simple ways. Hobbyist could have a support system as simple as a stake truck bracket designed into their stands. Commercial operations can stack four hives to a pallet locking the hives together.

Hive boxes could be made from extruded manufactured wood with the frame rest already in it to size. Eventually wood will be too expensive to make bee equipment anyway.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Eventually wood will be too expensive to make bee equipment anyway.<<

Oh nonsense


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I like the deep langstroth. Good size. The deep frames are a good size in proportion to the queens daily laying ability. She does not have to cross more frames then needed. I love using 5 frame nucs boxes (also deeps). 

The weight is its main issue but bringing nuc boxes or extra supers to lighten the load works fine if needed.

They are easy to build and they have less frames to look thru. It is a good system. Not the only way but one that works fine.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

The only way to go:

Langstroth/Warre hybrid hexagon hives

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291907-The-Hex-Plex-Pagoda-beehive


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*The real answer for this lies at the intersection of what the bees prefer (do best on) and human ergonomics.
*
Where that point lies I do not know. 

I do know bees prefer a certain size hole when picking a tree to inhabit in the wild. (volume) see: link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00361902#close

Seems like most of these tend to have longer combs than the design preference we currently use. 

In the past I have commented about acquiring some odd ball size boxes in both purchases and give aways. 

*The ones with deep combs seemed to do better than the ones we currently use *( I think due to brood breaks at the bars) 

*The issue is that working with these ergonomically is a task. The distance to pick them out of the hive is long and the weight of the arm on such a long frame tends to kill the wrists during inspections*.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Ian said:


> >>Eventually wood will be too expensive to make bee equipment anyway.<<
> 
> Oh nonsense



I agree. If no where else all those huge old trees in central BC ought to make some pretty nice boxes at a decent price.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Well your tounge is defenetly in your cheek,  , lots if wood down that entire western shore. 
15 - 20 -30 years of new growth is what I'm referring to


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> I'd really like feedback from long term beekeepers on this question. We are pretty much stuck with Langstroth size equipment by default. 8 frame boxes are popular in some areas, 10 frame is used most places, 5 frame nucs are used by a lot of hobby beekeepers. Top bar equipment is used by some. If you really had your choice on changing beekeeping for the better, how would you modify the box? Frames?


NEAT THREAD!

Boxes: Not quite what your thread says, but if I could trade all my equipment in, I would rather have 8-frame mediums and a few 6-frame medium nucs, equipped with a center slot to make 2 3-frame mating boxes.

Frames: Frame design would remove the upper lobes which tend to crush bees, and replace with little nobbies that set frame spacing. These would be adjustable to allow frame spacing between 1-1/8 and 1-1/2. Some folks are already experimenting with this.

Phil


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

I would switch to 3/4 deeps.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

If we could start all over, I would like to see the boxes fit the way modern lumber is sold. For instance.... Either make the deeps 11 1/4 so they could be made from a current 1 X 12:; or, make it 9 1/8 so it could be made from a 1 X 10.

Same with shallow supers. Make them 5 1/4 inch so they could be made from a current 6 inch board, (which in reality is 5 1/4 or 5 1/2) Or, better yet, make them 5 1/2 and they would not have to be ripped.

I suppose at the time the boxes were standardized, a 12 inch board was 12 inches after kiln dry or air dry. An 8 inch board was 8 inches. A 6 inch board was 6 inches.

Problem now is, there is way too much equipment, machinery, and patterns, out there to change the sizes. We live with what we have, so I will not try to reinvent the wheel.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank said:


> The only way to go:


odfrank...I think you know, you have always been my idol, so I hope I don't offend you, but, WHAT ARE THE ADVANTAGES of this Langstroth, Warre, hybrid, hexagon hive. 

cchoganjr


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Cleo, look up Stewarton Hive if you want more info, it was octagonal, not hex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewarton_hive These were invented in Scotland over 100 years ago in an effort to produce a hive that more closely follows the shape and size of a hollow tree. There are some advantages in terms of wintering and spring buildup. The disadvantages are mostly in getting a very tall colony of bees as supers are added and in having multiple odd sizes of frames.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> odfrank...I think you know, you have always been my idol, so I hope I don't offend you, but, WHAT ARE THE ADVANTAGES of this Langstroth, Warre, hybrid, hexagon hive. cchoganjr


#1 It took over 120 hours to build, therefore keeping me off the street searching for what I shouldn't have and can't get anyways.
#2 It is sexier than the next guys hive.
#3 You get the convenience of a frame hive with the mess and inconvenience of a topbar (Warre) hive. 
#4 You can hone your woodworking skills building one. 

I will report in a year or two if I find any others advantages or drawbacks.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

:thumbsup:   :thumbsup:



Plus, now Ollie has plenty of kindling available! :lpf:


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

I use around 15-20 Warre hives in my own apiary at any given time (square boxes), and I've never had any of them blow over. They get propolized together just as well as any Langstroth boxes. I don't know how much thought went into Langstroth's original box size. Dr. Seeley sat in on one of my Warre beekeeping classes and he thought Warre was definitely onto something with the box dimensions. He thought they were right on with the typical size of feral clusters he'd found. He also thought the entrance size was more reasonable than that of Langstroth's.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Cleo:

I suspect the dimensions of Langstroth hives were in fact pretty close to standard sized lumber in the 1880s, when lumber was cut to actual dimension (a 2 x4 was cut 2 inches thick and 4 inches wide) and when planed flat and square a 10" rough cut clear pine board would be a little over 9 5/8" wide, probably more like 9 3/4", so a minor trim to make them all the same size would work just fine.

However, lumber "standards" have shrunk at least twice in my lifetime, and "dimensional" lumber is no longer wide enough. Blame it on greedy sawmills and lumber companies, there is absolutely no reason we should permit that much loss of width. 

Be that as is may, we are now stuck. It's always something, and I'm glad I can still get reasonably priced "scrap" lumber to make boxes out of and have not been forced to use some horrible synthetic or semi-synthetic crap instead.

Peter


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Cackle, so you are going commercial. How well do the Warre's stack up when you put them on a truck? In other words, is there a lot of wasted space between hives, do they require special handling in loading, will the combs collapse in shipping?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank said:


> #1 It took over 120 hours to build, #2 It is sexier than the next guys hive.


odfrank... This is why you are my hero.

I love it when time means nothing, and looks is everything.

cchoganjr


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Fusion_power,

I don't know about commercial...but I do move my hives occassionally for various reasons (not pollination contracts or anything). Since they use cleat-style handles, they take up a little more space than the recessed handles of Lang boxes. You could cut recessed hand holds in Warre boxes if you really wanted to save space. I've never had comb collapse in my Warres in transport. This is probably because Warre boxes are small, the combs are fixed to the sides, and I don't drive like a maniac. I also move horizontal top bar hives and I don't have those combs collapse either. I just make sure I'm not moving them on the hottest days of the year. 

You could palletize Warres like Langs if you wanted to. I know there are commercial Warre beeks in France. Photos:http://www.ruche-warre.com/photos-warre.html and http://warre.biobees.com/denis.htm


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## 66thstreetbees (Sep 26, 2013)

Ask the bees to come to some kind of **** consensus. . . they are worse than beekeepers.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I would design them where they would all have 8 full supers of honey about July 4 weekend.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

psfred said:


> Cleo:
> 
> I suspect the dimensions of Langstroth hives were in fact pretty close to standard sized lumber in the 1880s,


Just what I was going to point out. Wood is too expensive. Bee boxes could be made from waste wood and plastic garbage, even foam insulated for northern beeks. They would be dimensionally stable, never warp or rot and could be cleaned in case of infected hives.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Bee boxes could be made from waste wood and plastic garbage.


Acebird... I have recently come across a plastic wood board called, "Versatex". It is a type of PVC board, comes in various widths, from at least 3 inch to 14 inch. Works well with all saw cuts, dados, and through a planer.

Last year I used some 4 inch wide boards (all I had at the time), to make side rails for bottom boards, and they seem to work well. I made a shallow super and still have a couple of kinks to work out. It will make great box joints, but, the glue that I used set very quickly and did not allow for squaring and leveling before setting. (That will have to be worked out.) (there may be a better glue for it, I have just not found it.) Nails work, but screws would be better. Additionally, it tends to chip out in hunks if a nail or staple is too near the edge of the board. 

At the end of one year, the bottom boards, and sides/ends for tops, did not warp, they will never need painting, and are only slightly heavier than wood. They will not rot. It has a smooth side on one side, and a wood grain look on the other. All I have are white, but, it may come in other colors. The normal glue used for PVC and CPVC does not work on Advantex. (Can't remember the name of the glue I used, and the can is out in the shop.)

But it is promising. I plan to do a lot more tests this year. Not sure of the cost, (the boards I have are cutoffs from a construction company) and I have only recently received some pieces 14 inches wide which will allow a deep super, and some 8 inches wide which will allow for a shallow super. 

If nothing else, I can see promise for bottom boards, and sides/ends, for telescoping covers. I also believe shallow honey supers would work well.

On the downside might be, condensation in the hives, not sure of heat retention etc. Just needs some testing.

Has anyone else worked with "Versatex" ?? If so , what were your conclusions??

Acebird... You are on the right track. 

cchoganjr


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Cleo, If I am looking at the right stuff Advantec is an OSB. Now the track record of OSB is not good as far as wheather, delaminating, swelling and just plain rotting.

I have no idea how is this stuff is for price. but I have seen what adding plastics to a manufactured wood product an do. I am familiar with Trex from almost the moment it hit the market. I also still see some installations from that time. over 20 year old decks that still look as good as they did the day they where installed.

SO these engineered woods can hold up. as for it's suitability as a box I am not so sure bout. maybe double thickness. As a top and bottom I would love to give it a try. Given I just made a bunch of fast cheap nuc boxes out of OSB I wish I had been able to find some of this.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Medium frames that were made so that the top bars could mostly be removed (leaving very narrow top and bottom bars) and then the frames be connected one over another to make a double or triple medium - deep frame for brood. Or disassembled and top bars re attached to become regular mediums again. Same for half frames (ala mating nucs) a design that could be run as a regular frame then taken apart to be used in minis. I've actually experimented with the second one.

Tool less assembly or captive quarter turn fasteners (as in ikea) would be ideal. When I get one of those 3d printers I'll show you what I'm talking about.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Daniel Y said:


> Cleo, If I am looking at the right stuff Advantec is an OSB.


Daniel Y... Advantec looks like OSB, but, let me assure you, IT IS NOT a typical OSB. I have been using it for years for 10 frame hive tops, and bottom boards for nucs. I even make some nucs completely from Advantec. Does not need to be painted, will not warp, rot, or delaminate. Most of my personal use migratory and/or telescoping covers are made using Advantec. I can get a good supply of cut-off from a contractor building a new house or commercial building, so the price is $"0".00 (My favorite price.) However , if you are buying Advantec for migratory tops, it is not expensive when compared to other tops. Cost is about $30.00 for a 4 X 8 sheet, and it will make 10 migratory covers and a couple nuc covers from a full sheet. As you can see from this photo, the Advantec feeder tops have not been painted. Most of these are at least 5 years old. That is when I found out about Advantec.









This photo shows a nuc made from Advantec. Everything except side rail of bottom board. (They are cypress).










What I was talking about above is called "Versatex". Looks just exactly like PVC pipe, same consistency, same approx weight, just in board form. However, PVC and CPVC glue and cleaner will not work on it. It is a cellular PVC used for trim board,soffit systems, and column wraps.

cchoganjr


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Bee boxes could be made from waste wood and plastic garbage, even foam insulated for northern beeks. They would be dimensionally stable, never warp

My experience with composite woods is that they warp easily from heat. Anyone that has used a plastic inner cover or bottom board knows how badly they warp. I made a hive stand with trex runners on the bottom and it warped in the heat so much that the two hives on it leaned towards each other until they could no longer be supered. Composites are also very heavy.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank... I agree with the plastic inner cover, bottom boards. To me they are basically worthless.. 25 years ago there was a push for deeps and shallows also made from plastic but I found that the screws would not hold them together,(they were not box joints), and they too warped badly also.

At the present time I am testing this new type of board called "Versatex". Preliminary results are promising. Bottom boards have not warped in first year test. Some disadvantages, but i will be doing more testing this year. Versatex is heavier, but, not all that much heavier than wood.

I AM EDITING THIS POST..... I have been spelling Versatex wrong. In all my writing above I spelled it Versatec, the correct spelling is "VERSATEX". Sorry if you were trying to find it and could not. I will correct the spelling.

cchoganjr


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## jredburn (Feb 25, 2012)

The Rev Langstroth lived in an era that did not have air conditioning, so all houses of that time had porches with lots of windows and doors on the bottoom floor with an attic area to support the pitched roof. It appears to me that he built his bee house similar to the house he ived in. But bees don't need porches, indeed they are a detrement to raising bees because they require to many guard bees on duty, they make it easy for pests and robbers to sneak in and they are have the entrance at the bottom. Bees don't like bottom entrances. If you have a bottom entrance on your hives and you then prop open the top a little, the bees will abandon the bottom entrance and use the top one. I don't know why but they do. The Rev. put an inner cover over the top of his bee house so the bees have an attic but the bees like to start at the very top of the cavity an build down. They don't need or like an attic so the inner cover is a waste. 
Splitting the brood nest is a bad idea, especially in cold climates, (in my opinion). I have never seen a feral hive that had two brood areas. So I am building brood frames that are 16" deep and letting the bees determine their own brood size. Since i do not do pollination I do not have to move the hives so I don't care how heavy they are. If I did polination I would have equipment to lift and stack the hives. I use honey suppers that are made from standard/off the shelf 1 x 8 or even 1 x 6. The frames are made to have bee space around them and they fit in my Maxtor extractor.
i make my frames with a top bar that is 3/8" x 1" X 19" all straight rips on a table saw. The side bars are 1/4" x 1/4" and cut to whatever size frame I am making. The bottom bar is 3/8" x 1" x 18 7/8". I drill a 5/16" hole in each end of the top and bottom bars and force the side rods into the hole with a drop of glue. I put map pins in the sides of the top bar to maintain bee space. I don't use foundation because of the pesticide contanation and the fact that the bees rebuid the cells size to suit themselves.
The bottom board is a piece of plywood that is painted heavily to make it as weather proof as possible. I take a piece of heavy paper the size of the board and pint one side of the paper black. I then coat the painted side with the sticky glue that is used on pest strips. The paper is then glued to the bottom board with spray adheasive so that the glue is face up into the hive, a 3/8" x 3/4" wood fence is then tacked to the edge of the bottom board so that the paper sits below the edge of the fence. On top of this I place a frame the same size as the bottom board but with a large hole in the middle. This hole is covered with 18" hardware cloth (wire Mesh). The brood chamber sits on top of the screen frame. This is a trap area for small hive beetles, mites, moths and other pests to hide in. They get stuck in the glue and cannot get out. The bees cannot get through the 1/8 mesh. The unit can be taken apart and the glue paper replaced when it get clogged.
The SHB and the wax moth both hate sunlight. So I put a piece of 1.4" plexiglass over the top of the hive in place of the top cover. The light from the sun drives the SHB down into the dark area at the bottom of the hive where they are traped in the glue.

I buy short cheap tie down straps at a discount store and strap the hive bodies together. I also have them sitting on 18" hive stands.

I don't claim this is a cure all for all our problems, it is just the way I do things.
Regards
Joe


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think bees are adaptable enough that we should, at least to some extent, take advantage of that adaptability to make hives that are convenient for us.

Within the confines of standard equipment, standard frames and a box that weighs less than 50 pounds, I'm happy with my eight frame mediums.

If you really want a different hive (and I don't) then let's set some criteria.

With this criteria:
Approximate (horizontally) the size of a winter cluster
Approximate (vertically) the size of a hollow tree that would be chosen for a hive by the bees
Cut evenly with no waste (including saw kerfs) from standard materials
Have combs small enough to be easily supportable without frames
Have combs short enough that the bees don't wander off so much from straight
Have smaller combs for mating nucs
Have boxes that weigh no more than 50 pounds when full
Be easy to build with minimal tools and skills
Require no foundation for natural cell size and clean wax and no need to buy foundation
Use standard board widths
Have handles that are easy to hold on to
Have bars that are easy to handle
Minimize burr between boxes because we have no frames
Be a good size to winter well and not leave stores behind when moving up
Be low to the ground to minimize high lifting
Have top entrance to minimize pests (mice and skunks) 

I'd build this:
All boxes: 15 7/8" by 15 7/8" by 7 1/4" (7 3/8"? whatever a one by eight is now)
All lids: 15 7/8" by 15 7/8" with 3/8" beespace to make top entrance.
All bottoms 15 7/8" by 15 7/8" with #8 screen. Flat (bottom beespace on boxes)
Bottom beespace (3/8")
Top bars only? (3/4" by 3/4" by 14 3/8" plus comb guide. comb will be 13 5/8")
Spacers? (1/2" staple? screw? nail? opposite directions on opposite ends)
3/4" thick top bars to help with burr? Could add FGMO to the top bars on regular basis to help with boxes getting burred together or just make frames and save the work.
No foundation
3/4" wide and 3/4" deep frame rests for long end bars and easy to make with no rabbet cuts, just cut the ends to be 3/8" less deep than the sides and close the end of the frame rest with a one by for the handle
3/4" cleats for handles and to make frame rest (cut an angle when splitting a one by three for runoff)
11 "frames" - 1 1/4" wide
Need several "swarm ketching" frames for combs that break
Maybe a lid with a hole the size of a canning jar lid towards the back so I can feed with a quart jar

I'll call it the "Bush Hive" Or maybe the "MB Hive".


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

MB, I also like the idea of a square hive, and as much as I like having all the boxes the same depth, I could still accept a deep box (made with standard lumber size, 9 1/4") for brood and the supers made of standard 1x8 as you said. If you run two deeps for brood, then you're going to need three mediums to equal that approximately, just another box to move around if you need to go through all your brood boxes for any reason, I know, I know, the deeps weigh more though, but if they are being used for brood only they likely won't ever weigh more than 50 lbs., well maybe 60, except just before winter when they will weigh a bit more (full of food) and you won't be needing to lift them around that late in the year anyways.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Acebird... I have recently come across a plastic wood board called, "Versatex". It is a type of PVC board, comes in various widths, from at least 3 inch to 14 inch. Works well with all saw cuts, dados, and through a planer.
> 
> .... If so , what were your conclusions??
> 
> Acebird... You are on the right track.


Is there any chance that the material used in this recycled material could be scraped off during the extraction process and contaminate the honey? 
If it is the material that has been used on my brothers deck, there will be constant flaking during box clean up and this stuff will be all through the honey.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

All the same size frames have GREATLY simplified my life. Deeps will eventually be full of honey and too heavy to lift.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> (7 3/8"? whatever a one by eight is now)


Then we run into the exact same problem we currently have now, as dimensional lumber yet again changes


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Then we run into the exact same problem we currently have now, as dimensional lumber yet again changes

Agreed. Actually I think a one by eight has been 7 1/4" now for some time (about 40 years) but that doesn't mean they won't cheat us out of another 1/8" or 1/4" sometime soon... when I was a kid it was 7 1/2" and when Langstroth designed his hives it was 7 5/8".


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I'll call it the "Bush Hive" Or maybe the "MB Hive". 

Plans, sketches and pictures please. Now that I have completed the HexPlex Pagoda I need another project.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I'd build this:

Why 15 7/8" wide?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why 15 7/8" wide? 

16" minus a saw kerf. I can cut a sheet of plywood into 18 pieces that size. I can cut an eight foot board into six pieces that length. Sorry I never got around to doing a drawing let along making it. Although I admit I would probably not make a drawing to make it. I'd just do it out of my head. But I do need to make some drawings for the fun of it.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> odfrank... This is why you are my hero.
> 
> I love it when time means nothing, and looks is everything.
> 
> cchoganjr



Odfrank and I just got past a serious legal battle over this hive design. He made it because he wanted to be a rebel! His is prettier than mine, though.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >Why 15 7/8" wide?
> 
> 16" minus a saw kerf. I can cut a sheet of plywood into 18 pieces that size. I can cut an eight foot board into six pieces that length. Sorry I never got around to doing a drawing let along making it. Although I admit I would probably not make a drawing to make it. I'd just do it out of my head. But I do need to make some drawings for the fun of it.


Better make it 15 3/4" then don't you think?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

That's actually a good idea - and make supers 7 3/4 tall for the same reason - you could get 9 supers out of a sheet with little waste. Better to have a little stick of waste than lose a whole row of parts to a fat saw blade...

Before anyone starts I have 5 year old plywood supers that look like new.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Better make it 15 3/4" then don't you think? 

Why? Then I'd have to make extra cuts. If I chalk a line every 16" in both directionson a sheet of plywood and just cut down the middle of the line, it they will come out close enough to 15 7/8". For 15 3/4" I'd have to make one extra cut on the width of the last one in both directions. If we wanted to be very precise we will lose 2 saw kerfs in the short direction and five in the long direction. 2 - 1/8" saw kerfs divided between three boards would make them 15 59/64" or within 1/64th of the target. 5 - 1/8" saw kerfs divided between six boards would be about 15 15/16" (rounded to the nearest 64th) within 1/16th of the target. But as my carpenter mentor used to say "We're not building pianos".


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ian said:


> Is there any chance that the material used in this recycled material could be scraped off during the extraction process and contaminate the honey?


Define contaminate. Wood will grow mold and algae. Very little grows on plastic. If you can filter pollen out of honey you can filter plastic shavings out of honey because they will be like rocks compared to pollen.

Are you sure your brothers deck is not covered in likens and that is what it flaking off?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >Why 15 7/8" wide?
> 
> 16" minus a saw kerf.


There are three strips and only two cuts... Or six strips and only 5 cuts. Where's that drawing?
Just teasing Mike.

Covers and BB's could be made by a rotational mold and then if you wanted the void could be filled with insulation.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Acebird said:


> Define contaminate. Wood will grow mold and algae. Very little grows on plastic.


If Im not mistaken, this material is made from recycled material. Plastic stuff packed together. 
Take your hive tool to the next piece you find. scrape it down. That scraping shavings will go into your honey. What is in that material? At least you know what you have in that wood.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Ian said:


> Is there any chance that the material used in this recycled material could be scraped off during the extraction process and contaminate the honey?


Ian... I don't believe Versatex is made from recycled plastics. It is a celluar PVC, made with Geon mixed with a plasticizer, and various heat retardants, and epoxies. Same as PVC water pipes, which is the industry standard today., 

I will try to find out if it is Food Safe.

When you think about where bees have been, gathering pollen and nectar, and how they walk on the frames, capps, inside the hive, I doubt it could be much worse than wood boxes.

cchoganjr


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

As Ace pointed out, mold and bacteria grows in wood. So according to that line of thought, we should be looking to reduce exposure to wood. Is the answer plastic? or a product from recycled plastic? We need to weigh advantages of those options. For the time being, wood is cheap. I just bought fully assembled dipped boxes for $15/box. Beat that.
There has been a campaign here in Canada to replace old boxes that may have been painted with lead paint. Scrapings from those boxes are definite causes of concern. 

As time goes on, thing change and we must evolve our way of doing things to follow this change. So far the standard lang box not only has remained the same but has caught on in popularity throughout the entire world.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Wood will grow mold and algae. Very little grows on plastic.

Whether we are talking about "virgin" plastic (like vinyl siding), or recycled plastics mixed with wood (like Trex decking), they are all capable of getting mold / mildew. Here is a photo with both composite "wood" and vinyl with mold and mildew:









_This house washing project was for mold and mildew removal on composite decking and vinyl siding.
_


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I'll call it the "Bush Hive" Or maybe the "MB Hive". 

I don't know if it has enough attributes for you to name after yourself...Maybe "D.Coates Jumbo Warre" is more accurate.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I have a majority of older gear, gear from several different manufacturer's, and gear that I've designed and built, myself.

I was gifted a pallet load of unassembled 10-frame, medium supers. I assembled a few, in normal fashion. I assembled a few more, by trimming off, 1/2 of the fingers on both ends of one side board, I made a matching dado groove in both end pieces, once the trimmed side board was glued, inserted in the dado's, and screwed/nailed/stapled into place, the cavity, thus created was the dimensions of an 8-frame super, and the end pieces extending outside, created a place, outside the super, to rest a frame during inspections. I also, carefully bisected many of the end pieces, precisely in half, using a thin kerf band saw blade, then used one fingered side board, and an additional piece of lumber, butt-jointed to the opposite side, thus creating 5-frame nuc boxs.

I like to use, what are called, "old fashioned metal frame rests". They create a, "knife edge" of, once-folded metal that the frames rest on, and a space/cavity is created beneath the Top Bar lugs, that permits the bees to access this area, hopefully reducing places where SHB can escape policing by guard bees.

As I assemble my supers, I adjust all, so the frames rest at the same level in each super (whatever frame rest style I choose for each super, has the frames sitting even with the top edges of the supers), with bee space, below.

I also like to use side-wall slatted racks. Research has shown that they serve no major purpose, but I started using them in the late 1960's. and I like the thought and look of them. Some have suggested switching them to free-floating follower board like devices, but I haven't tried this yet.

When building my own supers, I also avoid traditional handholds being cut into the outer surface of the wood; why help facilitate the natural deterioration process. I install cleats at the top ends of all supers, flush with the tops of the supers, reinforcing the frame rest rabbet's. These upper cleat surfaces facilitate using upper entrances, created by simply moving an upper super back from the edge, opening a slot.

I have also designed and recently began making my own frames. I find that certain tools and procedures facilitate doing this, without them, I would still not be doing my own frames.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Tried to add a photo of my hive, no luck.

Square boxes, 18 mm walls, 12 shallow Dadant frames, no wires just foundation, 5 cm Polyuretan roof, 12 mm plywood bottom,


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## Frostmork (Sep 8, 2013)

My mentor and I have discussed this a few times. And we usually end up with: Don't freaking change the size, stick with one! He's been at a lot of people who wanted to experiment with sizes and designs and it usually ends in chaos. The only reason he's using the Lågnormal size, is because that's the first thing he bought... And the only reason I am is because he is using them 
Commercial beekeepers tend to use 3/4 Langstroth around here and I'd guess it's for the same reason.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Frostmork said:


> Commercial beekeepers tend to use 3/4 Langstroth around here and I'd guess it's for the same reason.


Is it really 3/4(frame 17,4cm)? That was used in New Zealand. In Finland 2/3(15,9cm) is more common.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I don't know if it has enough attributes for you to name after yourself...

It never stopped anyone else.


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## Frostmork (Sep 8, 2013)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Is it really 3/4(frame 17,4cm)? That was used in New Zealand. In Finland 2/3(15,9cm) is more common.


I don't use them myself but the wiki page I checked said 15.9 is a 3/4 but now that I do the math that doesn't even add up 
I'd guess it should say 2/3, if Finland use them I'm pretty sure we do as well.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Since I set my frames' Top Bars, even with the top edge of the supers, I appreciate the top bee space provided by "inner covers" (it's a good place to put pollen sub patties, before the honey flow), but I don't like inner covers, or telescoping covers, so I make my own version of migratory cover, that includes a bee space rim and a small permanent entrance hole. The image below shows the migratory cover, with the bee space rim on the right. The unit is complete once they are glued and fastened together.
​I also designed and built several different Bottom Board versions to suit my needs. I needed to eliminate bottom entrances, to reduce/eliminate hive depopulation, caused by nocturnal insectivores, maintain good ventilation, yet not be too drafty.

My preferred design is -->

​The above design has #8 hardware cloth closing the bottom to most insects, including honey bees, but allows air to enter. This design also has slats, above the screen, oriented side-to-side, and with their widest sides, oriented vertically. The slats provide places for bees to cluster and moderate the air flow.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Sinc
> The above design has #8 hardware cloth closing the bottom to most insects, including honey bees, but allows air to enter. This design also has slats, above the screen, oriented side-to-side, and with their widest sides, oriented vertically. The slats provide places for bees to cluster and moderate the air flow.


In Europe so called "high bottoms" are largely in use. Some beekeepers say, that about 2-3" high space under the frames enables the bees to cluster and by doing this, it helps them in cooling and even honey gathering! The dance to mark new nectar sources is transmitted to a larger group of bees, and faster, they say. These high bottoms still have a bottom entrance.

Some beekeeper feed dry sugar from boxes mounted in these high structures of the bottom.

Some of these structures have a slatted rack as in your bottom (rack has about 1/2" holes so bees can walk through, but there will be no burr comb) others, like me, have no rack. Downside is lots of drones, but as a breeder what would be better.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

If wood is too expensive:
- Make the lumber forest more efficient. Pay more attention to the root structure and soil in a forest than anything above ground. Plant an efficient mix of plants (including legume trees). A tiny amount of legume trees should make a huge difference.
- Reduce soil damage. Cut down the right trees in the right places.
- Think of the forest as a patch of cover crops. Use the thought processes that a cover crop farmer would use.

Right now, wood is so cheap (for me), and boxes are so quick to make, that it might not be worth the time and $ to paint boxes. I make boxes with 6 rabbats. 4 rabbats are for the corners, and 2 are for the frame rests. All are the same depth. If I get a large apiary, I would make fancier joints, and wax dip.

My doomsday hive would bee made of woven willow or hazel. There's no reason to make these basket hives right now, but its nice to have the pruned trees just in case.

Changes that should be made to standard hives (in order of importance):
- simple metric dimensions
- better inner cover designs: This is a ventilation topic that I don't know the solution to.
- standard lumber dimensions
- screened bottom boards for bees I don't trust
- New materials for bottom boards and stands: See my thread: "thermally modified wood". 
- black locust?

The advantages of rectangular boxes
- the ability to bundle 8 hives so that they can share heat in the cold winter
- easy to make
- easy to checkerboard

This is my 2nd year. In my 1st, I just experimented with a swarm.


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

MattDavey said:


> I think a design that is able to cater for the various areas of beekeeping and to provide a pathway from hobbyist to commercial.
> 
> For example, a Nuc box that is exactly half the width of a full size box. Frames that are good for queen rearing and seeing brood patterns. Boxes that are not too heavy. Frames that can be held in one hand.
> 
> ...


See eco bee box


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

I use many Warre hives. I make swarm lure boxes with 12 or 13 topbars. I then transfer to hives. This could be an excellent long hive if made up to 48" long. Long boxes work well as "Long Lang" if you use frames. I'm cosidering making one, with Warre topbars. It would be just about the simplest hive you could make.


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

Would be nice to access frames from the sidess instead of having to lift and move boxes.


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