# Any large cell (a.k.a. standard or traditional) beeks not treating?



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Are there any large cell (a.k.a. traditional, standard) beekeepers not treating; and if so what have the results been. 

Also appreciate any small cell (a.k.a. natural) beekeepers posting their results without treatments.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

DRUR, this is a complex subject. Yes, there are lots of large cell beeks not treating. Some don't care. Some don't have the money. Some don't have the time. Some don't believe in it. My thoughts are that the reasons for NOT treating are so varied and so disparate that the qualitative results are not all that relevant. 

And yes, there are small cell beeks that don't treat. Again, not all results are relevant. For example, I have one small cell hive amongst five large cell in my home yard. However, I have queen problems, different races of bees, colonies started from packages versus nucs, etc. There are many variables. What I found is that my experiences are mine alone and worth living through. All methods have value. What has value to you, the beekeeper, is yours to learn and ultimately to share.


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## Doc5000 (Jul 3, 2009)

Treating for what?


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Ravenseye said:


> DRUR, this is a complex subject. /QUOTE]
> 
> Well, it may be a complex subject but it is a simple enough question. Raven I went with small cell because I will not contaminate my honey with poisons. Honey is supposed to be a natural, wholesome product. One of the reasons for my choosing small cell is that there were numerous people who were not treating on small cells, but I could not find anyone who did not treat on large cell. I kept bees from the late 70s throught the late 80s and never treated. My bees were healthy and productive, and also on the large cells. I now how five colonies, and one is not regressed yet. The non regressed mite count seems to be exploding, but not my small cells. This is contrary to the 'scientific' studies, but seems to be in accordance with other small or natural cell experiences. Several people have posted that they knew beeks using large cells and not treating. I just want to know what there observations are.
> 
> Sorry, this is just not that complex.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Doc5000 said:


> Treating for what?


Treating with anything? If you treat only with powdered sugar, share that. Don't need to know if you are feeding sugar syrup, but I didn't ask that, but if you treat with your feeding program that is what I want to know. Also, what have your observations been.


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Well said Ravenseye.



> Treating for what?


\

Mites, Nosema, ect...

Drur,

Are you asking about any treatments what so ever or just chemical treatments. There was a tread started by NeilV a while back called Live and Let Die. (I think) It was a really good discussion. I will see if I can find it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Do a search. There has already been discussion about this.
Start here:
http://beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214294


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Derek said:


> Mites, Nosema, ect...
> 
> Drur,
> 
> Are you asking about any treatments what so ever or just chemical treatments. There was a tread started by NeilV a while back called Live and Let Die. (I think) It was a really good discussion. I will see if I can find it.


Yep, for anything, use IPM, then state it and share your successes or failures. Thanks Derek if you find it post it, I will also look at it.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Barry said:


> Do a search. There has already been discussion about this.
> Start here:
> http://beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214294


Been there this was a poll. gave no details as to success and dealt only with mites, not exactly what I am looking for but thanks for sharing. See my other response where I have tried to explain. Just looking for both successes and failures, maybe we can learn something from others failures or successes.

Thanks for all the responses.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Don't make me find the exact post I made asking the same thing. It's been asked and for the most part, people aren't interested. I believe TwT was one who replied at the time being on large cell.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Barry said:


> Don't make me find the exact post I made asking the same thing. It's been asked and for the most part, people aren't interested. I believe TwT was one who replied at the time being on large cell.


Sorry barry, give me a hint on the language and I will search myself and also which section it was in. LOL, sorry my wife is calling me to bed and I keep calling her to read the jokes, she is also losing her patience with me but she keeps laughing also.
Kindest Regards


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

I don't use chemicals. I am not against them. I would and may use them in the future. Right now I only power sugar dust and feed e.o.'s. I add thyme oil in them in Jan and Oct-ish. I have SBB built like Ross'. Here is how I came to use what I do. At one time I could see 10 or more mites on bees while inspecting. If I could see 10 then there had to be 100's. I was about to head out on vacation and could not make sure I could get the treatment timing made. So I was reading, reading, and more reading on here. And help and thanks to Alpha6. I decided to do the dust and e.o. route. The e.o. part is easy. I didn't make the once a week dust. (close to it though) I did do it 4 times. I have not seen a mite since. I am not saying they are not there, but my hives are really strong and I have not seen any. I will do a dusting in Sep-Oct to see if there is some. I don't do an accurate 24 hour drop count though. 


Here is the link I was talking about. Get a good chair. It's 11 pages or so long.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224987&highlight=live


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

I'm large cell and treat for nothing.

What I'm attempting to do is breed for hygienic behavior, natural Nosema resistance, and natural foulbrood resistance, coupled with good brood production and honey production. (Tall order... I know.) Eventually, I'd like to arrive at a bee that I can market to commercial beekeepers that is cheaper to run, since no medications need be applied.

I do perform a powdered sugar treatment a couple times a year, but only to test for mite load and not to "treat" for mites.

And, yes, I do lose hives. Nosema took a major toll on me this past spring. But, the way I see it is that those hives that can't survive are removed from the gene pool naturally. The survivors strengthen my breeding pool.


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## snarky (Oct 6, 2006)

I don't treat, just put SBB/oil tray for SHB;
I do a mix of Standard plastic foundation and foundationless;

I have lost 1 hive to beekeeper error;


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Derek said:


> I don't use chemicals. I am not against them. I would and may use them in the future. . . . So I was reading, reading, and more reading on here. And help and thanks to Alpha6.Here is the link I was talking about. Get a good chair. It's 11 pages or so long.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224987&highlight=live


Thanks Derek, BigdaddyDS and Snarky, just the type of response I was looking for, and a helpful one at that. Sharing the treatment and the logical sequence for the decision, and the end result. This is what us new beekeepers need. Although, I am not necessarily new in beekeeping, I am new to this mite and new health problems, thanks for the reasoned response.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

i am large cell and have not treated. my few hives were very remote and i had not had any problems till this year.bought out another beek and am now seeing mites on bees in a split i recently made.well i interupted the brood cycle( on accident) and i am researching my options for treating. the beek i bought out treated for everything so who knows what kind of survivor stock they are. i probably would have mass treated when i started, but was to busy.now i am not sure i want to treat for anything. justin
i am also considering rotating out 2 of the frame of old dark wax per box per year and replacing with small cell, so that in 5 years i would have small cell hives. it's a thought.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

justin said:


> i am large cell and have not treated.


How many years?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

snarky said:


> I don't treat


How many years?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

BigDaddyDS said:


> I'm large cell and treat for nothing.


How many years?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I over wintered 48 colonies this past winter, about evenly split standard cell and small cell. The standard cell colonies had not been treated for the two previous years. The small cell colonies were in their second year and had been treated with formic acid.

The small cell colonies were treated in September with formic acid so that I could count varroa and compare them to standard cell colonies also treated. Twenty small cell colonies and 5 standard cell colonies were treated and the varroa counts were above or close to the 3500 number the state apiary section says is the economic threshold for this area. 

Colonies lost by April this year were 2, one each small and standard cell.

I have 2 friends, one with 40 colonies the other 120. They are on standard cell and they have not treated for 5 years. Their over winter losses are about 10% maxium each year.


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

"How many years?"
the hives i was talking about are from packages last spring and they were probably treated before i got them. i should have stayed out of this discussion.


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## danno1800 (Mar 13, 2004)

*Live & Let Die beeyard*

I bought 2 queens from all the breeders I could find who claimed that they did not treat or had hygienic bees. I will not treat that yard & see how they do. I plan to use that beeyard as a drone source for raising my own queens. Wish me luck! -Danno


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Has anybody tried mdasplitter site, http://www.mdasplitter.com/index.htm artificial supercedure for controlling mite populations?


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

I would like to make the record here about a 'treatment' for which I have not made a decision yet, that being powdered sugar for mites.

Per (as I can recall) gmcharlie made the point that the primary reservation concerning treating with powdered sugar was during a honey flow for contaminating honey with the powdered sugar; however this is not a health problem (my understanding) for either the honey bee or man.

I am on the record in many prior post concerning current die offs of colonies and the resulting loss of high honey production genetics. This is a concern of mine. Just seems to me that great strides have been made in beekeeping concerning this genetic aspect for which the beekeeper is striving, that being high honey production.

Just seems to me that some concessions should/could be made until such time that the health/survivability genetic can catch up without destroying all the other genetic progress for those traits which we have previously bred for.

My main concern in treating is in contamination of our natural product honey, and in being able to produce genetic traits in bees that are sustainable with the least amount of intervention.

When selecting for traits, you usually breed for positive traits from two different lines, one lacking a needed trait, and the other supplying that trait. Seems to me that if you breed for survivability alone, at the sacrifice of honey production, then We are making the same mistake again, whereby we previously selected for one trait (honey production) at the loss of health. It just seems to me (at this time with my limited knowledge) that the powdered sugar treatment is one of the least intrusive methods, and also one which would have the least enviromental affect.

We need a healthy bee that produces bumper crop of honey, if we intend to continue to be the highest per colony honey producing section of the world. Just my opinion.


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

Barry said:


> How many years?


Sorry for the delay in responding!

My operation is 3 years medication free! However, I'm currently grafting queens from stock that is 13 years without medication, and another that is 6 years without meds. Gradually, I'm replacing ALL my queens with these survivor queens. Although I intended to be on a 3 year comb/frame rotation cycle, I've been finding the occasional 4 year old comb currently in use. Next year, I should be completely free of old comb from my medication days.

On a different note, my goals differ from Drur. My primary goal is to have a survivor bee. Honey production is much lower down on my list of wants. Afterall, not all beekeepers are going for a "bumper crop" of honey. Some are looking for pollen collection abilities. Others, although admittedly fewer, may be looking for propolis production. But the facts remain: If you don't have bees that survive, you won't have production of anything! And, secondly, with the price of bees nowadays, you can buy a lot of honey for the cost of replacing a hive. Survivor bees just make sense. The fact that I also test for honey production is just a bonus in my opinion.

DS


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

DRUR said:


> Has anybody tried mdasplitter site, http://www.mdasplitter.com/index.htm artificial supercedure for controlling mite populations?


Mentioned it several times..... My methods for the last 5 years. I don't always requeen in the fall (not enough queens) but I do interupt the brood cycle of the mites...


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

DRUR said:


> Just seems to me that some concessions should/could be made until such time that the health/survivability genetic can catch up without destroying all the other genetic progress for those traits which we have previously bred for.
> 
> .
> 
> ...



Right on Drur, I am sure you have been watching the discussion between Michal and Country boy.....(and my two cents once in a while)

Its great to know someone was watching..... the point of our argument with Michael was Mites in particular are a parasite, and not a genetic trait..... Ocasional help to control them while we progress is not a crime...
The strides made in the last 15 years should make Beeks proud not ashamed!.....


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

BigDaddyDS said:


> On a different note, my goals differ from Drur. My primary goal is to have a survivor bee. Honey production is much lower down on my list of wants. Afterall, not all beekeepers are going for a "bumper crop" of honey. Some are looking for pollen collection abilities. Others, although admittedly fewer, may be looking for propolis production. But the facts remain: If you don't have bees that survive, you won't have production of anything! And, secondly, with the price of bees nowadays, you can buy a lot of honey for the cost of replacing a hive. Survivor bees just make sense. The fact that I also test for honey production is just a bonus in my opinion.
> 
> DS


BigDaddyDS:
I know that the only other trait that I mentioned was honey production; however this was not meant as an exclusion to others. In my area of Texas (as far as I know) pollination contracts are not the main source of a beekeepers income. Point I was trying to make is that in the past, Beekeepers in our country bred for specific beneficial traits, and now we are confronted with a new challenge which threatens to destroy and/or cause the loss of many of these selected traits. Had we known of the threat, I am sure that we would have put more emphasis on 'survivability' in addition to the other traits. Hopefully we are approaching the point that we can again focus on many other desirable traits in addition to survivability. 
When I previously kept bees, gentleness was a sought after trait, and this was before the AHB problem. 
I want to thank everyone for their continued responses and sharing of this information.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

fwiw I kept 16 hives from 1968-1983, which were easy times in which to keep bees! Five years ago I decided to resume, but read and studied first. Four years ago I bought two "hygenic" packages... I have bought 4 different strains of "hygenic" bees/queens from various breeders, and have built up to 14 colonies, headed to 40 in the next couple of years. The ONLY thing I treat for is Nosema. The ONLY thing I add to my hives are sugar syrup for feeding (made with cane sugar, not HFCS) and the fumidil-B in the spring and fall for Nosema. Other than than, nada. In 4 years I have lost one hive, apparently to CCD. (I did a thorough diagnosis, and ruled everything else out, based on pollen, honey, few dead bees, sealed brood left, etc etc etc). I use standard or tradition foundation, etc.

I am trying for both survivors, and honey production.
Perhaps this is the type of information you're seeking? 
Regards,
Steven


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

StevenG said:


> I am trying for both survivors, and honey production.
> Perhaps this is the type of information you're seeking?
> Regards,
> Steven


This is the type of information I am seeking and also the information others would like for their consideration. You might share with us your observations for your successes and failures. Also, who was your queen provider etc. or you can e-mail me at [email protected] and be sure to put in the subject line Re: honeybees. Thanks for your input.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

To answer your question, I have purchased packages of Russians from Jester Bee Co in Ark.; queens from Purvis (North Carolina I believe); queens and packages from B. Weaver in Navasota, TX. I would like to get some Minnesota Hygenic also... In two more years I'd like to have those four strains in my apiaries, then start raising my own queens to be fertilized by those four strains of drones. So far, like I've said, in 4 years I've lost one hive. Purvis and B. Weaver advertise theirs as hygenic survivors that they've developed over the years. At this point I'm not sure which is best, as I just started this year with the Russians and Purvis bees/queens.

From what I've read, there are several different breeders out there working on hygenic/survivor stock. I think that is going to be the key that saves beekeeping, personally. That and our own hygenic behavior in the apiary. 

Like I said, I don't treat. zilch, nada, none...except for Nosema. Oh, and I use AJ's Beetle Eater traps for the Small Hive Beetle. Mineral oil, no poisons.

Regards,
Steven


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Sorry, forgot to mention that I do use screened bottom boards, and made slatted racks that are oriented to be directly underneath the frames (instead of across them). Good for mite fall...they go straight to the ground.


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