# "cost" of crush and strain



## MichelinMan (Feb 18, 2008)

I`ve never done crush and strain but if you want to figure it out...

It takes about 7 pounds of honey to make one pound of wax. So, weigh one sheet of foundation in whatever size frame you use. Now count the frames you`re gonna do c&s with. Then, after you have done all your straining weigh the wax left over. Subtract the weight of the foundation. The result will be the new wax or drawn comb that the bees have made. So now multiply this weight by 7 and estimate low. 

Example: 
1 sheet of foundation weighs about 4 ounces.
You c&s 50 frames. (4X50=200 ounces=12.5 lbs foundation)
The wax left over weighs 30 pounds.
30 - 12.5 = 17.5 lbs (new wax)
17.5 X 7 = 122.5 pounds.
So theoretically, had you given the bees drawn comb you could have ended up with about 100 lbs more of honey. I estimated low because this formula doesn`t take into account the weight of the cappings. The cappings will be made whether you use foundation or drawn comb. If you can figure out what the cappings weigh then you can get more precise. But in any case you can see there is definitely a cost.


----------



## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

I would like to see someone actually point to the study where someone "discovered" the 1 to 7 ratio of honey to wax. Seems like an old wives tale.


----------



## MichelinMan (Feb 18, 2008)

mythomane said:


> I would like to see someone actually point to the study where someone "discovered" the 1 to 7 ratio of honey to wax. Seems like an old wives tale.


Yes I agree this is a bit of guess work. But it does cost the bees something. They are giving their wax glands a pretty good work out so it stands to reason they need to fuel this activity. Also, if you consider the time spent... every bee busy building comb is not busy foraging so there would be less honey coming in. But hey, this ain`t no science!


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't have any facts and figures but from past experience there seems to be a notable advantage to using drawn comb. Beyond the savings of honey that was detailed above there is the element of time. Typically our honey flows are of a relatively short duration and we want to have the maximum amount of empty drawn comb in place for the bees to process the nectar during that flow. If they are busy building comb then not only are you wasting honey on comb building but you are also losing valuable time during the flow. If you have a good flow taking place a few days wasted in drawing out comb rather than gathering and drying nectar can really add up.

If you only have a couple of colonies it probably doesn't matter too much, but if you get up to 5+ hives it may be worth the investment to at least purchase an inexpensive small hand crank model.


----------



## teebee (Dec 4, 2008)

MichelinMan,

Perfect!
Now to determine what cappings weigh and to verify the 1 to 7 ration and it should be possible to estimate the "cost" of drawing out the foundation.

Also another question that factors in. Are honey comb frames cycled out after a certain number of years? I'm only a 2nd year beekeeper so mine are still in good shape.

The sale price of wax is another factor too.

If your figures are accurate and not hypothetical, it seems like it doesn't take too many hives to justify an extractor. I actually like my "system" of crush and strain because I have plastic frames and just scrape them down (kind of like aggressive uncapping) into an uncapping and straining setup and then just bottle from there and I don't have to clean an extractor, but if my percentage of lost honey production is too much it doesn't seem worth forgoing an extractor because I do sell my honey at retail prices.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#expenseofwax

From Beeswax Production, Harvesting, Processing and Products, Coggshall and Morse pg 35

"Their degree of efficiency in wax production, that is how many pounds of honey or sugar syrup are required to produce one pound of wax, is not clear. It is difficult to demonstrate this experimentally because so many variables exist. The experiment most frequently cited is that by Whitcomb (1946). He fed four colonies a thin, dark, strong honey that he called unmarketable. The only fault that might be found with the test was that the bees had free flight, which was probably necessary so they could void fecal matter; it was stated that no honey flow was in progress. The production of a pound of beeswax required a mean of 8.4 pounds of honey (range 6.66 to 8.80). Whitcomb found a tendency for wax production to become more efficient as time progressed. This also emphasizes that a project intended to determine the ratio of sugar to wax, or one designed to produce wax from a cheap source of sugar, requires time for wax glands to develop and perhaps for bees to fall into the routine of both wax secretion and comb production."

The problem with most of the estimates on what it takes to make a pound of wax is they don't take into account how much honey that pound of wax will support

From Beeswax Production, Harvesting, Processing and Products, Coggshall and Morse pg 41

"A pound (0.4536 kg.) of beeswax, when made into comb, will hold 22 pounds (10 kg.) of honey. In an unsupported comb the stress on the topmost cells is the greatest; a comb one foot (30 cm.) deep supports 1320 times its own weight in honey."


----------



## teebee (Dec 4, 2008)

> If you only have a couple of colonies it probably doesn't matter too much, but if you get up to 5+ hives it may be worth the investment to at least purchase an inexpensive small hand crank model.


Mike, Thanks. Funny you should mention five hives. That's exactly what I have. so maybe that's why I'm thinking about this so much. I can see, that like most things in beekeeping that answer is not simple.

The one option that I don't think I will do though is to get an inexpensive hand crank. After borrowing a hand crank tangential extractor from a friend I did decide that when/if I get an extractor it will be a motorized one and probably radial. At 58, I'm not sure my shoulder would last with a hand crank model.


----------



## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Well, this example seems not terribly scientific to me -- though leave it to you Bush, to know where the hell to find it! I am with you that there is an advantage for sure in drawn comb. This is common sense to me. My issue is that these figures are bandied about as gospel, and they have spurious roots at best.


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

There is another point not yet mentioned here. It is VERY hard to prevent swarming without drawn comb..next to impossable on a long hard flow. Also even though you are using plastic frames and dont have to relace foundation you are loosing about 1/2 of your honey crop. Whether producing comb hone or drawing new comb....you get about 1/2 the honey drawing out new comb vs using drawn comb. When I ran 150 colones and each was double queened and equalized prior to flow, production was very even throughout the bee yard. If I put foundation on a colony the rest would make two supers of honey while the colony that had to draw out the wax made one.....this has been consistant for 37 years. So if you have two hives of bees and average 40 lbs colony per year using c&s you would make about 80 lb ave with drawn comb. so over a 5 year period you would loose 200 lb/colony or 400 lb honey. 400lb honey at $4.00 lb is $1600. In my opinion cut and squeeze is NEVER a option!


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

"For this reason (cost of equipment) it is doubtful whether anyone with fewer than 50 colonies should raise anything but comb honey." (and/or C&S)

Richard Taylor, The How-To-Do-It Book of Beekeeping.

This is however one area I disagree with Mr. Taylor on and ordered my Maxant last week.


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Another consideration, IMO, is that the honey provides the fuel for the wax, but that is not the only input. The bees have to work at it, and bees that are drawing comb are not doing something else, like gathering nectar or curing it. 

Along the same lines, there are a limited number of days in a nectar flow when the weather's good and there is a worker force that is big enough to get 'er done. A hive with drawn comb does not have to waste part of that crucial period redrawing comb every year. They can just put it away. And I've learned that when a strong hive has drawn comb, they can really put quite a bit of honey away in a short amount of time. However, the work proceeds more slowly when they have to draw the comb.

I suspect (but do not really know) that the honey production on a crush and strain hive is reduced by significantly more than just the amount of honey is takes, in theory, to draw the wax. (Unless all that is figured into the 1 to 7 ratio theory. However, if that's included, then the 1:7 ratio is necessarily pretty subjective.)


----------



## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Ok Mythomane, you're pretty quick to dismiss our predecessors who have done studies on wax production as spurious. So, why don't YOU do such a study yourself? During a time of no flow, give one of your hives a super of foundation, feed them, account for any honey stored, and why don't YOU tell US how much honey/sugar syrup it takes to produce one pound of wax? Do your study to those standards that you accuse others of not using. Write a paper on it, submit it here and to one of the bee journals. Perhaps quite a few of us would be interested to see how your study turns out, and how it compares with previous ones. 

Until you do that, quit accusing others of using spurious data, or hearsay, when reputable people have done studies and they've been reported.


----------



## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

I'm willing to bet when the price of bees was lower crush and strain was probably a more economical decision as well as possibly the high price of an extractor. I just started this year and have noticed the value of drawn comb in the supers. I do have an issue of using old comb in the brood area and am trying to figure out a plan of action to keep the colonies on nearly new comb.


----------



## Terry Small Jr (Aug 31, 2008)

teebee said:


> Also another question that factors in. Are honey comb frames cycled out after a certain number of years?


My boss has been a commercial beek for almost thirty years. He's bought equipment from other beeks who have bought equipment from other beeks. I've seen frames stamped '1976'. We use them till they break & can't be fixed.


----------



## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

re:steveng

I am not dismissing/accusing anybody. I already said I think most of the above posts are correct as relates to drawn comb. There is an obvious advantage. I am not a scientist, nor pretend to be, and am not really qualified to do a scientific test of that nature. My issue is with this 1 to 7 ratio. You state there are reputable people who have done studies. I am less concerned about their reputation as their method. You say there are scientific studies. Help me out here and show me this information.


----------



## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Just a note in defense of Taylor: 

1-People like comb honey. It will sell well, and you can bump the price so that it perhaps offsets some of the loss from the comb they have to draw. 

2-Having been friends with Richard I can tell you that he did not always agree with the stuff he wrote in his books. He was in a location (Interlaken, NY) which was pefect for producing comb honey. You may not have such luck.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

you have to factor in Michaels comment about how much wax is in a frame.... its a very small amount... way less than a pound for a typical frame.. so lets say its 1/4 lb and it supports 6lbs of honey..... you gave up 1.3 lbs of honey to get 6 at a cost of 2.50 a lb, you would need to 400 frames to pay for that 1000.00 extractor.... that would be 40 supers.....

as for me, I have 2 extractors, one commercial, one home made..... and yet for small amounts I crush and strain. or to clean up frames I don't want to store (partials)


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

gm charlie....using your analysis you are right BUT as also stated in the above post you make 1/2 as much honey with no drawn comb....there is more to consider than just the amount of wax made. Also the extractor is a long term investment...and you can sell it when you retire so it doesnt really "cost" you the purchase price. My first extractor was purchased in 1981, a dadant 12 frame radial for 383.03..(incl shipping). I was so proud of it I never forgot the purchase price. I sold it when I purchased Hubbard 44 framers. Selling price was 500.00 so what did it cost me to own it for the 5 years i owned it? You have to look at the big picture. If you have two hives you NEED a extractor....will make you $$$!!!!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"A comb honey beekeeper really needs, in addition to his bees and the usual apiary equipment and tools, only one other thing, and that is a pocket knife. The day you go into producing extracted honey, on the other hand, you must begin to think not only of an extractor, which is a costly machine used only a relatively minute part of the year, but also of uncapping equipment, strainers, settling tanks, wax melters, bottle filling equipment, pails and utensils galore and endless things. Besides this you must have a place to store supers of combs, subject to damage by moths and rodents and, given the nature of beeswax, very subject to destruction by fire. And still more: You must begin to think in terms of a whole new building, namely, a honey house, suitably constructed, supplied with power, and equipped....

"All this seems obvious enough, and yet time after time I have seen novice beekeepers, as soon as they had built their apiaries up to a half dozen or so hives, begin to look around for an extractor. It is as if one were to establish a small garden by the kitchen door, and then at once begin looking for a tractor to till it with. Unless then, you have, or plan eventually to have, perhaps fifty or more colonies of bees, you should try to resist looking in bee catalogs at the extractors and other enchanting and tempting tools that are offered and instead look with renewed fondness at your little pocket knife, so symbolic of the simplicity that is the mark of every truly good life."--Richard Taylor, The Comb Honey Book


"The opinion of experts once was that the production of beeswax in a colony required great quantities of nectar which, since it was turned into wax, would never be turned into honey. Until quite recently it was thought that bees could store seven pounds of honey for every pound of beeswax that they needed to manufacture for the construction of their combs--a figure which seems never to have been given any scientific basis, and which is in any case quite certainly wrong. The widespread view that if the combs were used over and over, through the use of the honey extractor, then the bees would be saved the trouble of building them and could convert the nectar thus saved into honey, was only minimally correct. A strong colony of bees will make almost as much comb honey as extracted honey on a strong honey flow. The advantage of the extractor, in increasing harvests, is that honey stored from minor flows, or gathered by the bees over many weeks of the summer, can easily be extracted, but comb honey cannot be easily produced under those conditions."--Richard Taylor, The Comb Honey Book


----------



## trapperbob (May 27, 2007)

The only thing that I know for sure is that my honey harvest has risen since I started extracting verses crush and strain.That does not mean that I am against crush and strain because to go out and buy an extractor when starting out would be foolish. Once you have done it for some time and decide you are going to do it on a much larger scale then I would call that justified. But if you are going to stay small crush and strain would probably be for you espesially if cost was a factor. It's kind of like if you have a cow you wish to have a calf and she is your only cow you don't go out and buy a prize bull that would be ridiculous even overkill. It's the same way with extractors when crush and strain will suffice why spend the extra expense. Your honey harvest may not be what the big boys are getting but the wax amounts you will get can make up for that. You can make candles or sale the wax or trade it for new foundation.


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I think the ability to store on minor flows is really quite a large part of it in many parts of the country. We simply don't get big extended flows here. Once hot weather hits, even feeding won't get the bees to produce much comb. We get pretty strong fall flows many years, and the bees will fill all available comb, but still won't make new comb like they do in the spring.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

This is a little bit off topic, but may be something you would like to check into in your area. We have a couple of beeks in our county who own extractors and at different times of the year they offer up the use of their machine for several smaller beekeepers. They all bring their supers in on a predetermined afternoon and each will extract their own honey. They offer a small percent of their harvest to the owner of the extractor and then go on their way. It can be a rewarding social activity and everyone ends up gaining in one way or another.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There is no doubt the bees fill drawn comb quickly and having to build comb slows them down and decreases the harvest. How much, is the issue and if it's worth buying an extractor for only a few hives. I don't think it is. I didn't buy one until 26 years into my beekeeping but I never had more than seven hives for that 26 years either and I didn't have the money to spare for an extractor. When I did buy one it was a 9/18 motorized and it was the right time for me to buy it as I was expanding and the extractor was on sale.


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

As most of us know mr. Taylor was very much biaed toward comb honey. I did meet him some years back and a very interesting person to talk to. Paper will let you write anything on it you want and I would totally disagree with Mr. Taylors statement that a strong colony will make almost as much comb honey as they will using drawn comb. For anyone in doubt take 1/2 of your colonies and use foundation andthe other half use drawn comb....make sure colonies ae simular in strength....you will make 2 to 1. Any beekeeper who has had bees and tried to maximize productin and control swarming will tell you the same thing. YES it cost money for a bottling tank but you can use a 5 gal bucket with a gate and hand held knife with a solar wax melter. Yu dont have to invest in big $$ items. Lets say you have 10 hives and produce 40 lbs comb honey a year and sell it for $7 a lb plus plastic box. thats $2,800 a year.(and not all people want omb) Now with extracted honey you produce 80 lbs hive and sell for $5.00 lb. Total income for one year is $4,000. so you paid for $1,200 worth of extracting equipment the FIRST year. Now multiply that times 10 years and you are up to $12,000. And you dont have to buy and replace the foundation! Yes you may have to spend your first years earnings on a building but remember all that extracting equipment can be sold to recoop most or more that you paid for it! Like I tated above YOU CANNOT control sarming without drawn comb unless you cut cells every two weeks!


----------



## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

Several folks have posted that the number of hives/supers is a key factor in deciding whether or not you want/need/will benefit from an extractor or other non-manual equipment. I will add two other key factors:

1) How many people are involved in the process; and
2) Where you are in your life (put another way, how much time do you have?).

For example, I got my extractor, hand cranked, when I only had one hive and motorized it when I had two hives. But, I travel a lot for a living, I'm single, and I do everything with my bees alone, in fact, I do everything on this 60-acre property alone. So, my time was limited back then, and it is even more limited now. I'm glad I bought what I did, when I did. Now that I am on my way to 20+ hives, I am beginning to look at more time savers, like an uncapper. In business, it's called 'opportunity cost'; what's the value of your time, and what else could you be doing? To do one thing, you have to give up another.

My point is that what is a relatively easy/fast job for a couple, who are working as a team, can be a much bigger job for a person working solo, who also has a full-time job. That needs to be factored into the equation.

And, no, I'm not saying that married people have it any easier. Everyone is short on time. But, I imagine it's gotta be nice, when there are two people working as a team in the bee yard or in the honey house.

Bill


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Sutton, my math was not to convince either way.... just a way of looking at it.....if like many you never sell honey that 1000 is a waste. many with 3-4 hives just eat it and give it to friends.... the 4 oz figure I gave is actually way off, its very close to 2.5 ounces per frame (weighed some this afternoon)...

Bees will make wax or honey, open supers are not an issue..... if they have no open super they store in the brood nest and move it up when the wax is ready.... the don't "Stop the machine" cause you used their wax...

Extractors take space and money buying one or not is not my recomendation, just throwing out some math.


----------



## Timpeti (Apr 24, 2008)

Does anyone know if bees can reuse the wax leftovers after crush-and straining or will they just clean them off the honey?


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

We have beekeepers in Tulsa who will rent an extractor for not a lot. If you (and I'm not speaking to anybody in particular) don't have that option, maybe you could offset the cost of buying an extractor by becoming that option. Just a thought.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Timpeti said:


> Does anyone know if bees can reuse the wax leftovers after crush-and straining or will they just clean them off the honey?


I let them clean it up and they do take a small portion of the cappings... I would say around 10% don't know what they do with them, or if its just honey soaked and they carry it off....


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

GM charlie...I understand what you are saying....Its just really hard to manage bees to prevent swarming without drawn comb and get a good crop of honey... Also I was trying to show what the cost would be over the long term....you can buy a small extractor, hand knife, 5 gal bucket with gate without a lot of $. In the long haul if you stay in the bee business 5 or 10 years you will be $$$$ ahead! It also can vary from location to location.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Like I tated above YOU CANNOT control sarming without drawn comb unless you cut cells every two weeks! 

Empty frames in the brood nest work fine with no drawn comb. I haven't found cutting cells to work at all.


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

mythomane said:


> Just a note in defense of Taylor:
> 
> 1-People like comb honey. It will sell well, and you can bump the price so that it perhaps offsets some of the loss from the comb they have to draw.
> 
> 2-Having been friends with Richard I can tell you that he did not always agree with the stuff he wrote in his books. He was in a location (Interlaken, NY) which was pefect for producing comb honey. You may not have such luck.


I said that i didn't agree with him kinda tounge and cheek since I just ordered an extractor last week.....I am a huge fan of his work and think every beek should have a book or two of his!! I have also produced comb honey but it seems to sell more as an oddity than anything else around here.


----------



## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

I agree michael..cutting cells is NOT a good method of swarm control. I can work but you cant miss one and have to keep doing it....a poor method at best. Pulling brood and putting in empty comb as you state is the best way! BUt if you have a 4 week flow bees are likely to swarm if just comb honey supers are used or you have to keep pulling some brood and adding empty frames which will reduce you yield. You also will have to have more hives for those splits.


----------



## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

You also need to keep in mind the characteristics of your bees. Last year I started some Russian packages. One hive built a large number of queen cells. I had read that they were swarmy, but was not prepared for it with a new package and a queen with a great pattern. So, I did exactly the wrong thing and went around cutting out queen cells. These were the real deal, not cups. The hive never swarmed.

Afterward, when I thought about the stupid human trick I had just done, I figured I had gotten lucky and dodged a bullet.

Fast forward to this year. Colonies are mature and in three deeps with supers on top and plenty of space. I decided to let them do what they do and put some traps around in hopes of catching a swarm or two, since I was sure they would do it this year. Not one. Are they building and tearing down queen cells in there? I don't know, but they probably are/were, and in hindsight I'll bet that's what they were doing last year and my actions had little or no impact on them. I probably didn't even get all the cells, since they are a bear to find on that many frames.

My point is that you can do everything right (not saying that I did that last year but, maybe, this year) and the bees will still do what they do. For some bees queen cells are just a more aggressive back up plan and don't necessarily result in a swarm (or supercedure).

Bill


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

For comparison purposes I looked at two hives that started as swarms in April. Neither received any external feed and both were located within 50 feet of each other. 

The smaller swarm (3-4 frames of bees) moved into a fully drawn hive body consisting of two deeps. As it filled the second box with bees it was given fully drawn supers. To date I have harvested 3 supers full of honey and they are still working on #4.

The larger swarm (6-8 frames of bees) was put into a single deep of undrawn and was later given another deep to draw out. Again as the second box was completed it was given a couple of drawn supers. To date they have almost filled one super but will likely not fill the second one. 

So, the cost for drawing comb in 2 deeps is 2-3 medium supers of honey.

Fuzzy

PS: I retail the honey for 6-8 dollars a pint. So 3 supers of honey would pay for a reasonable extractor in 1 year.


----------



## locoskip (Apr 25, 2008)

cost is an interesting idea . 
in my mind, it all depends. if you like working with your hands and have the time, then building an exrtactor isn't much of a cost. A small one can be run off a 1/2in drill. 15- 20$ on creigslist. If you arn't handy then going in with a few people on an extractor might be the way to go. it is a heck of a lot more fun to to this as a group than alone. 

cappings can be sold back to some of the foundation manufactures or to other local beeks who are doing candles for the local farmers markets .

just a few thoughts.


----------



## J-Bees (Jul 12, 2008)

well I have a few hives and C&S every other frame: when I look back into the hives they are filling everyother one...... and NOT makeing new wax.


----------



## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

teebee said:


> Also another question that factors in. Are honey comb frames cycled out after a certain number of years?


I think that it's wise to cycle out brood frames but there's no need to cycle out super frames. The bees clean them up and reuse them year after year with no issues until the frames fall apart (they will in an extractor). I have some that I've been using almost 20 years (sheesh, I'm gettin' old). I try to change out the worst or oldest brood frame in each hive every year (in spring). I don't know that it does me much good other than I get rid of all the ugly and malformed combs. Bees don't seem to mind.



Ross said:


> We get pretty strong fall flows many years, and the bees will fill all available comb, but still won't make new comb like they do in the spring.


That's my experience. Without drawn super frames you don't get much honey here. They only draw fresh comb in the spring. In the fall they're getting ready for winter.



Michael Bush said:


> >I haven't found cutting cells to work at all.


But it's the best and most effective way to end up with a queenless hive. Just say no.



bnatural said:


> For some bees queen cells are just a more aggressive back up plan and don't necessarily result in a swarm (or supercedure).


I posted a thread about reading in The Hive and the Honeybee that bees use the queen cells they build only around 50% of the time. Those are pretty good odds against cutting out cells. Better to let them swarm and catch it IMO. You can recombine later or use it for increase.

I've found old 2 and 4 frame extractors for less than $100. If I were starting out today, I'd keep my eyes open for an old, small extractor and buy it. You can always save it for small jobs, loan it out after you don't need it, donate it to your bee club for loaning to newbies, or sell it for more than you paid for it. Just get the word out. There's got to be a widow of an old beek out there wanting to get it out of a closet or garage.

The fact is you'll make much more honey with drawn frames than without. Is that why you're keeping bees? If you are in it for other reasons the gear for extracting may not be necessary.

Here's antoher approach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8b4k-RIH14


----------



## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

In y'alls' experience, is it faster to crush and strain a super as opposed to removing the cappings and extracting in a 2-frame junior bench extractor (which I was lucky enough to have a brother give to me)?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>In y'alls' experience, is it faster to crush and strain a super as opposed to removing the cappings and extracting in a 2-frame junior bench extractor (which I was lucky enough to have a brother give to me)? 

Yes it's faster to crush and strain. But you'll get more honey next year if you have drawn comb... if you have more honey than you need anyway, it probably doesn't matter. If you need more wax, then crush and strain would be better.


----------



## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

If you have a local club see if they loan out

Also don't think it was mentioned but with cs you get more wax to render


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

In my opinion, crush-and-strain works great for foundationless approach. Extraction by centrifugal force is suitable for classical frames with foundation. I also noticed that in my case, foundationless frames have always thicker comb than frames with foundation in the same beehive - thus, more honey per frame since I am mostly foundationless. It is amazing how little wax is in freshly made honey-comb! Another advantage of the crush-and-strain method is that it is easy to scale - from kitchen pot to barrel if necessary. Sergey


----------



## mac (May 1, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Yes it's faster to crush and strain.


 Not sure how it's faster ????


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I can cut out a comb and mash it in a matter of seconds per comb. To uncap it takes longer than that, and then I still have to extract it, which at best takes several minutes. I can crush and strain a super of honey much faster than I can extract it.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

mac said:


> Not sure how it's faster ????


 Uncapping, loading into extractor, unloading, cleaning extractor when done... it seems to me - just more steps and more equipment...


----------



## Widdy (Jan 12, 2012)

my $.02

Almost nothing new gets cheaper over time. Buy what you can afford today, because you might not be able to afford it tomorrow. If something happens you can always sell it for most if not all of your money back.


----------



## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

cerezha said:


> Uncapping, loading into extractor, unloading, cleaning extractor when done... it seems to me - just more steps and more equipment...


Cool, thanks. I forgot about the time it takes to load, flip the frames over and clean everything out. I will give crush & strain a try this year, hope I don't get my wife angry for dripping honey and/or using her kitchen equipment, and see how it all works out.


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

> Extraction by centrifugal force is suitable for classical frames with foundation.


My foundationless extract just fine however I did cross wire them. 8)


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

NasalSponge said:


> My foundationless extract just fine however I did cross wire them. 8)


 Sure, why not? With my 2 beehives permitted - it just does not make any sense to have a whole extraction "facility" 
Sergey


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Tom Davidson said:


> ... hope I don't get my wife angry for dripping honey and/or using her kitchen equipment...


 Yes, very important point! Our house already sticky but I feel that my wife easier tolerate usage of her pot rather than mechanical extractor in the center of the kitchen... we do not have much space...
Sergey


----------



## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

NasalSponge said:


> My foundationless extract just fine however I did cross wire them. 8)


Being committed to "lazy beekeeping", I didn't cross-wire my spring foundationless and didn't have a single blowout. Just wait until the combs are "cured" and you're good to go, as long as you start from slow and work up to fast.


----------



## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

How would the speed of drawing comb on new wax foundation compare to leaving a 3/4'' strip of comb on the top edge like in the video . I just assumed I would have to take my wedge top bar frames apart and slip in a new sheet of foundation every time .


----------



## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

I think I would sale comb honey, before crush and strain. Just thought I would put that out there.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Birdman said:


> I think I would sale comb honey, before crush and strain. Just thought I would put that out there.


 In US for some reasons people are skeptical about comb honey. In Russia, comb honey is 2x more expensive than regular one. Russians love comb honey because it is all-natural!


----------



## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

And it has a nicer flavour, too. 

After you did the crush and strain put the wax and honey in a pan on low heat. Honey and wax separate. This honey is not for eating, but you can make honey mead or honey vinegar. That's what I do. No waste.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Ooo
I think, we have something in common! I "invented" the whole recycling process. I start with crushed honey in double-pot (steamer insert and pot). Honey dripped into the pot. When done, I pour honey into the jars and add some cold boiled water into the pot, reinstall insert with wax. So, the rest (~20%) of the honey retained in crushed wax will dissolve in the water. When done - pour honey-water (d=1.120) into the bottle for fermentation (the mead). Move wax into plastic mesh-bad (from lemons) and place it in the pot, fill up with water, re-install insert. Boil water - wax melted and form a cake on the surface, cool it down. Leftovers from the mesh-bag used as a fertilizer in the garden! So, I have honey, mead, wax, propolis and fertilizer for the garden. My biggest problem is the mead - the taste is inconsistent  but my Russian friends drink it anyway 
3 med. frames = 7.4 kg honey + 1 gal the mead (d=1.120) + 0.4 kg wax + some propolis


----------



## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

cerezha said:


> In US for some reasons people are skeptical about comb honey. In Russia, comb honey is 2x more expensive than regular one. Russians love comb honey because it is all-natural!


I have all kinds of people that ask for comb or chunk honey. I would be safe to say around 50% of them.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I think I would sale comb honey, before crush and strain

It depends on your market. I did both for 26 years. Some people area always going to want liquid honey... but I agree, you should cultivate a market for comb honey. I find older people and most ethnic groups seem to appreciate it already, you just have to find them.


----------



## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

I find a lot of people ask for comb but it is because they have heard grandma or grandpa talk about it. When it comes down to it most do not come back for more comb just the honey. It's a nostalgic thing for the older generation in the US reminding them of when they did not have candy at their finger tips.
For the time and effort involved I just crush and strain and only bottle a few quarts of comb for those that I know really want it maybe 15-20 jars a year. In some areas they may pay more but they are not that willing in this area so it's not worth it for me.


----------

