# Newbee ?: Relocating Wild Hive To New Home On Same Property



## Karasu (Sep 19, 2017)

Hi all!

Don't even know what a "top bar" is, but I picked this forum because it had 'au natural' in the description ;-)

Goal here is to move a wild hive that developed under a tarp (used to cover the remnants of last year's wood pile) to a new location on our property & keep it "wild". 

I discovered it when I blithely pulled the tarp up to restack some firewood. I was dismayed to see that in doing so, I had broken off the top part of the honeycomb that had been attached to the tarp. The bees were not at all happy about this, though given the destruction, they were not all that hostile to me. I replaced the tarp with the broken piece as close to the bottom piece as I could manage and have left them alone since. (This occurred about a week ago.)

I am more than happy to have a hive of wild bees on the property, and have no intention of stealing their honey, but this is a less than ideal location. 

I have read a bit about relocating hives and keep running into conflicting information about variations of the "3 feet or 3 mile" rule, which some seem to consider a cardinal rule and others seem to consider mythology. 

There is a location about 6 feet away that would be fine. (They don't seem to get aggravated when humans or other critters are in close proximity.) A more ideal location would be about 50 feet towards the rear of the property on the wind-protected side of a shaded shed which is visited infrequently. If necessary I could sacrifice my woodpile location, but it is in an optimal location.

Questions:
Can I move this hive either 6 feet or 50 feet?

Assuming a "yes" or "maybe" response:

If I move the honeycomb, does that mean I moved the queen or do I need to find her and relocate her separately?
Is there a type of manufactured beehive that is preferable for their new home? 
(Again, I don't want to take their honey, and basically want to optimize a wild hive to be a wild hive and support pollinators.)
Is it better to wait until after cold to freezing weather to move the hive? 
(We get real winters here in Flagstaff, AZ)


Potentially useful info:

The honeycomb appeared be placed on top of some firewood and connected (until I came along) to the tarp. When I removed the tarp, many bees seemed to swarm up from either underground or under the pallets the firewood sits on.
(This leads to the "how many of the bees do I need to move in addition to the honeycomb?" question.)

We are on a 1 acre lot, at about 6500' elevation, pretty close to a Ponderosa pine forest, left mostly 'au natural' with many wildflowers and a couple of birdbaths, all of which are visited regularly by bees and birds and other critters. Most other lots in the area strip-mow their lots, so we are a bit of an oasis in the desert for the area critters. 

We are suddenly in Fall here, which is also known locally as "Wind". Temps are running low 70's F daytime and low 40's nights. Average freeze date = "any day now".

Any suggestions, references, cries of outrage and dismay, etc are welcome!

Thanks!


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I know I am going to regret this...

Ok. Lots of stuff here. First, I would not attempt to relocate the bees at this time. Getting too close to winter for them to build a new natural home. Second, contact a local bee club and talk to a swarm removal expert. Third, as a winter project, build a large hollow log hive or find a large hollowed out tree and set it up where you want the bees. In the spring, have the local expert move the bees. I am not experienced enough to walk you through the steps necessary to make this a successful venture. That is why you need a LOCAL expert.


----------



## Karasu (Sep 19, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> I know I am going to regret this...
> 
> Ok. Lots of stuff here. First, I would not attempt to relocate the bees at this time. Getting too close to winter for them to build a new natural home. Second, contact a local bee club and talk to a swarm removal expert. Third, as a winter project, build a large hollow log hive or find a large hollowed out tree and set it up where you want the bees. In the spring, have the local expert move the bees. I am not experienced enough to walk you through the steps necessary to make this a successful venture. That is why you need a LOCAL expert.


Um, ok, thanks. Apologies if this was not the right place for my questions.
BTW, please don't reply if you're going to regret it ;-)


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

You misunderstand. If you ask 3 beekeepers for their opinion, you will get 5 answers. We love to contradict ourselves. The regret will be someone else saying that their answer is better etc. 
You came to the right place given the options as top bar hives are considered more natural because they do not use frames. Beesource is a great forum and no matter your question, someone will have the right answer or two.


----------



## Karasu (Sep 19, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> You misunderstand. If you ask 3 beekeepers for their opinion, you will get 5 answers. We love to contradict ourselves. The regret will be someone else saying that their answer is better etc.
> You came to the right place given the options as top bar hives are considered more natural because they do not use frames. Beesource is a great forum and no matter your question, someone will have the right answer or two.


Ah, thanks. No worries on conflicting answers to my initial specific questions, that helps my education. Hopefully I'll get some answers. My experience with local "experts" &/or contractors has been, let's say, unhelpful at best. Thus my default position of "I guess I need to educate myself and then do it myself." I'm attempting a bit of the 'educate myself' process here. I'm willing to consider requesting an on-site consult and MAYbe help in relocating the hive, but I'm not looking for the honey or bees to be damaged, 'harvested', or relocated 500 miles away, or otherwise messed with much, just preferably relocated either about 6 feet or 50 feet.


----------



## Thomas Frazier (Aug 25, 2015)

Karasu, I got into beekeeping after encountering a swarm which tried to establish itself as a colony, as yours apparently has. I watched it as it took up residence in a tree, then dwindled down to nothing over the next few months. That winter I bought a book, some woodenware, and ordered a package for the spring. 

You, by planning to move the hive to a better location, are taking a more active approach than I did. This is commendable; but unless you plan on giving them a house (hive) to live in, their chances of success are small.

The reason we say "3 feet or 3 miles," is that any bees out foraging when you move the hive will return to the original spot, if they can find it. If you move them at night, most foragers will be inside (if you can enclose it). The next morning they will re-orient to the new location. You may notice a (hopefully small) number of bees at the old location; they will either find their way eventually, or you will have to write them off. Your planned 50-foot move has a fair chance of success, but you will lose some bees.

Good luck, and thank you for caring about the bees. Cheers!


----------



## Karasu (Sep 19, 2017)

Thomas Frazier said:


> Karasu, I got into beekeeping after encountering a swarm which tried to establish itself as a colony, as yours apparently has. I watched it as it took up residence in a tree, then dwindled down to nothing over the next few months. That winter I bought a book, some woodenware, and ordered a package for the spring.
> 
> You, by planning to move the hive to a better location, are taking a more active approach than I did. This is commendable; but unless you plan on giving them a house (hive) to live in, their chances of success are small.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Quite helpful. Can you direct me to any resources regarding a house/hive design or source that would work for wild bees? (Honey gathering access not a factor.) Also, is the risk of bees reorienting at the old location essentially the same for a 6' move as for a 50' move? 

Thanks again!


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Assuming you still want to stay natural, google "hollow log hives". You will get a lot of hits and pictures of various hives made from trees. It is best to move the hive 2 to 3 feet per week until you get it where you want it. So a 6' move is a lot easier than 50'. Your biggest issue when the time comes is cutting out the existing comb and getting it attached inside the new hive. This will not be an easy job and the bees will NOT like it. However, it must be done so you don't interrupt the brood cycle. You must also make sure you get the queen, this is where a knowlegeable person is really good to have around. Read up on cut outs for more info on getting the comb into the hive, lots of techniques. Once all this is done, I'm sure you will enjoy having the bees.


----------



## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

You can move them 2 feet per hour and won't have any lost bees I have done this quite a few times over the years. I do this during daylight don't try this at night or you will have lost bees.


----------



## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

Karasu wrote:

"a wild hive that developed under a tarp ( used to cover the remnants of last year 's wood pile"

Is it possible to make a "this year's woodpile"?
Do that * and * knock together some insulation to go 
over the tarp for the winter. Provide a wind and rain shield 
also if possible.
Do the relocate thing next melt, moving the hive at least a few 
kms away for a few days.

Bill


----------



## Karasu (Sep 19, 2017)

eltalia said:


> Karasu wrote:
> 
> "a wild hive that developed under a tarp ( used to cover the remnants of last year 's wood pile"
> 
> ...


Thanks to all for these replies. And thanks for your patience. Very helpful. I'm wondering if there are additional concerns about the bees apparently coming up out of the ground. (Some sources say up to 70% of wild bees are ground dwellers ?) A lot of the relocation info seems to assume the 'hive' is all above ground.


----------



## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

It is rare to find ground dwelling colonies in Australia, we have some aggressive (insect chompers) critters underground, not rabbits 
But yes, that and other factors say leave these guys bee for now to treat it as a trapout in the melt rather than a "dismantle and adapt to a box" now or then.
They chose that spot, they also chose you... do the right thing 

Bill


----------



## Karasu (Sep 19, 2017)

eltalia said:


> It is rare to find ground dwelling colonies in Australia, we have some aggressive (insect chompers) critters underground, not rabbits
> But yes, that and other factors say leave these guys bee for now to treat it as a trapout in the melt rather than a "dismantle and adapt to a box" now or then.
> They chose that spot, they also chose you... do the right thing
> 
> Bill


I'm trying! ;-) Thanks for the input.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Karasu said:


> I'm wondering if there are additional concerns about the bees apparently coming up out of the ground. (Some sources say up to 70% of wild bees are ground dwellers ?) A lot of the relocation info seems to assume the 'hive' is all above ground.


Honey bees (Apis Mellifera) do not nest in the ground. Most of the threads at Beesource are regarding honey bees. However, there are also "native bees" that _do_ nest in the ground, although there is an "Alternative Pollinators" sub-forum where threads are about other kinds of bees, and non-bee pollinators. 

More on "native bees": https://entomology.cals.cornell.edu/extension/wild-pollinators/native-bees-your-backyard


There are also wasps that build a comb-like structure, but it has a "paper" appearance. None of those ground nesting bees build honeycomb, AFAIK. So if the comb in your woodpile is _wax_, and particularly if it has any honey in it, those would be honey bees. If some of the bees are _in_ the ground, its quite unlikely that those honey bees. Perhaps you could post a photo?


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Assuming they are honey bees, a couple of notes:

In AZ you have a high likelihood that these are Africanized bees (aka "killer bees") which are more difficult to manage, particularly for new beekeepers. AHB can be docile-seeming when in small,young, colonies but can change their temperament to more hostile when the colony grows.

Removing the bees:

Honey bees' don't move easily to managed "containers" from the wild in the fall because the move usually damages, and in some cases destroys, the combs they need to survive the winter. So a delay to spring would be better as they could recover more easily at that time. 

Aside from damage to their combs, bee colonies are a bit hard to move around because the adult bees that leave the hive to forage are amazingly focused on their familiar location. They can become lost if you move the colony. That said however, I regularly move my bees around my property, including short (less than 3 feet) distances or longer moves of a few hundred feet. It can be done, but you have to take careful precautions. So consider that issue something you can quite easily work with. The more-perilous issue is the transfer from natural location to managed container.

Hollow log hives are illegal in some states because the combs cannot be removed and inspected for diseases. If you put them in such a hive and an inspection was needed, the result might be that the hive was summarily burnt because they couldn't be inspected. I do not know what the legal status of log hives is in AZ.

Whether you hive the bees in a top-bar hive or standard bee boxes (Langstroth equipment) it is best for them if you learn enough (and have the inherent time and interest) to manage them pro-actively. They are not garden accessories, and though they can and do live in the wild, they will do better with the attention you would give to any animal in your care.

All of my bees came to me as "wild bees" or swarms to my barns so I am partial to formerly-wild bees. (But I am not in an area where AHB exist, which would temper my enthusiasm for wild bees, I think.) Once I had had them hived I realized that I had taken on an unanticipated heavy responsibility for their care, since my choice moved them from the places they had chosen to live on their own. I felt that I had to provide at least as good conditions for them.

For now, I would suggest protecting the colony for the winter (however you can do that.) Study up about bee husbandry from now until spring. Perhaps assess your risk of and willingness to take on possibly AHB. Find some local beekeepers (we are everywhere, though sometimes not obvious at first glance). Then in the spring, if you're up for it, and if the bees have survived, get them transferred to boxes of some kind and place them within inches of where they are now immediately afterward. Once they have settled into the boxes (a week or so would be all that is necessary - they will focus on their queen's new realm) move them in their new boxes to where you want them to be on your property (based on what you learn about beekeeping in your local area, about beekeeping in general.) That move will not be difficult, or hard on you or the bees, if it is well-planned. Come back and get advice here when you're ready for that stage.

Good luck to you and "your" bees!

Nancy


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Assuming they are honey bees, a couple of notes:

In AZ you have a high likelihood that these are Africanized bees (aka "killer bees") which are more difficult to manage, particularly for new beekeepers. AHB can be docile-seeming when in small,young, colonies but can change their temperament to more hostile when the colony grows.

Removing the bees:

Honey bees' don't move easily to managed "containers" from the wild in the fall because the move usually damages, and in some cases destroys, the combs they need to survive the winter. So a delay to spring would be better as they could recover more easily at that time. 

Aside from damage to their combs, bee colonies are a bit hard to move around because the adult bees that leave the hive to forage are amazingly focused on their familiar location. They can become lost if you move the colony. That said however, I regularly move my bees around my property, including short (less than 3 feet) distances or longer moves of a few hundred feet. It can be done, but you have to take careful precautions. So consider that issue something you can quite easily work with. The more-perilous issue is the transfer from natural location to managed container.

Hollow log hives are illegal in some states because the combs cannot be removed and inspected for diseases. If you put them in such a hive and an inspection was needed, the result might be that the hive was summarily burnt because they couldn't be inspected. I do not know what the legal status of log hives is in AZ.

Whether you hive the bees in a top-bar hive or standard bee boxes (Langstroth equipment) it is best for them if you learn enough (and have the necessary time and interest) to manage them pro-actively. They are not garden accessories, and though they can and do live in the wild, they will do better with the level of attention you would give to any animal in your care.

All of my bees came to me as "wild bees" or swarms to my barns so I am partial to formerly-wild bees. (But I am not in an area where AHB exist, which would temper my enthusiasm for wild bees, I think.) Once I had had them hived I realized that I had taken on an unanticipated heavy responsibility for their care, since my choice moved them from the places they had chosen to live on their own. I felt that I had to provide at least as good conditions for them.

For now, I would suggest protecting the colony for the winter (however you can do that -you can ask here for,ore ideas about how to do that.) Study up about bee husbandry from now until spring. Perhaps assess your risk of and willingness to take on possibly AHB. Find some local beekeepers (we are everywhere, though sometimes not obvious at first glance). Then in the spring, if you're up for it, and if the bees have survived, get them transferred to boxes of some kind and place them within inches of where they are now immediately afterward. Once they have settled into the boxes (a week or so would be all that is necessary - they will focus on their queen's new realm) move them in their new boxes to where you want them to be on your property (based on what you learn about beekeeping in your local area, about beekeeping in general.) That move will not be difficult, or hard on you or the bees, if it is well-planned. Come back and get advice here when you're ready for that stage.

Good luck to you and "your" bees!

Nancy


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Nancy, I saw a hollow log hive that was sectioned and stacked like a langstroth and had bars like a top bar. Supers were cut from the same log and marked for orientation. Interesting idea, way too much work for me!


----------



## Karasu (Sep 19, 2017)

enjambres said:


> Assuming they are honey bees, a couple of notes:
> 
> In AZ you have a high likelihood that these are Africanized bees (aka "killer bees") which are more difficult to manage, particularly for new beekeepers. AHB can be docile-seeming when in small,young, colonies but can change their temperament to more hostile when the colony grows.
> 
> ...



Thanks very much. Good info. I am defaulting to leaving them where they are for the winter, but perhaps trying to put a wooden box or an arced section of stiff wire fencing over them to support the tarps they are now under (and have unfortunately attached their honeycomb to). May attempt to add a layer of an old blanket over them as well. Goal is to support the tarps against snow load (we sometimes get 2' or more) and add a bit of insulation. 

I will attempt pics of the bees and post them assuming I can figure out how to do so here. 

I was so dismayed at disturbing them and breaking up their honeycomb that I was less observant than I should have been in my haste to cover them back up again. Given the "if they're ground bees they're not honeybees" info, I'm in a bit of a quandary. I do recall seeing what sure looked like a honeycomb to me, but I also recall seeing a bunch of them coming up from under the pallet the firewood used to sit on. Note that I did not see a direct entrance to the ground.

I'll do a more organized examination of the scenario within the next few days, but probably not until my bee suit comes and we get a cool calm evening, which doesn't look likely to occur here for a few more days. (Currently quite windy- not good for tarp handling- and may or may not freeze the next couple of nights with a warm up to follow next week.)

?: how stressful is it longer term for bees to have their honeycomb broken up, even if the 'pieces' are replaced in about the same location and no wax or honey is taken?

Apparently the local (~7000' near Flagstaff in northern AZ) risk of wild bees being Africanized is about 30-50% depending on the info source. As I said, given the duress I put them under when I ripped the tarp off their heads and broke up the honeycomb, they were quite mellow and not at all aggressive, but maybe they are AFBs in the 'young, small, and mellow' phase and hadn't ramped up to their full Darth Vader mode yet. If they attack me, my mate, or my cats, my mellow attitude might need to change along with theirs.

Thanks again for all the help! Will post more when I have more.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> ... but maybe they are AFBs in the ...

AFB = American Foulbrood ; a bee brood disease that is highly contagious to other bees. Burning everything is the cure.

AHB = Africanized Honey Bee ; not everybody's cup of tea, but way better than AFB


----------



## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> Nancy, I saw a hollow log hive that was sectioned and stacked like a langstroth and had bars like a top bar. Supers were cut from the same log and marked for orientation. Interesting idea, way too much work for me!


... the Lazimanz version, under construction. The others are set as swarm traps.

Bill

-- 
http://tinypic.com/r/2v1w2yw/9


----------



## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

That log is in many ways similar to a Warre hive.
Bill


----------



## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

No idea on Warre detail here, I had to "google it;
http://warre.biobees.com/plans.htm

Mine is around 30lt with queen excluder plus a dry space(8mm) under insulated roof. Ventilation is via 32mm penetration in top section and a 32mm exhaust in bottom board. The entrance is just 17mm opening into a 32mm patio. There are 3 bars in each section, the brood drawn is usually around 400mm, close to full depth of the section. Only once have I had comb drawn in the top section, and that only as there was a strong flow at that time in that area and I could not get back there for weeks after placing the trap. 
I would not have been building anymore only a bushfire (wildfire) took one out recently. A penalty of being somewhat lazy and why the design is how it is. I have left these insitu for months over a wet season, well hidden.
The design for this one incorporates a change in suspending the comb, a very recent discovery from playing with setups for 'conventional' topbar architecture. Pix if that works.

Bill


----------

