# I just killed both my queens, am I crazy?



## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

I have 2 top bar hives based on Les Crowder's design. I populated both just this year, one with a swarm and one with a nuc (yes, I had to trim the nuc langstroth frames to fit in my top bar but that will have to be the topic of another thread). Anyway, in my attempts to follow Mel Disselkoen's advice I killed both queens in both colonies (i know, he recommends doing it on July 1st but I've got too much other stuff going on tomorrow so I did it today). It wasn't easy especially since the queen from the swarm was performing well. The one from the nuc didn't have a great laying pattern so that wasn't as difficult. I also notched some comb on bars that had 3 day old larva. This is suppose to stimulate the bees to create queen cells there. I guess now I need to check in a week to make sure queen cells have been made and capped. If everything goes as planned, I will split the swarm hive because it appears to be the stronger hive while letting the other just recreate a queen and hopefully carry one.

I guess my real question is not "am I crazy" (I already know I am). I'm really wondering if anybody else has done this sort of thing and what the results were?

Also, I'm trying this because I lost 2 hives last year from mites and this brood break is supposed to be a lot harder on the mites than the bees. In addition, I will be getting, hopefully, local genetics which should result in bees better adapted to my area. Trying to be treatment free last year failed miserably so I'm also considering treating the hive with oxalic acid on July 25th. There should be no capped brood in the hives at this time so it seems like a great opportunity to treat only once and get all the mites. 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Many people replace their queens annually. It is a personal choice. Personally, I would not have do it quite the same way, but to each their own. There are several brood break methods that don't require the killing of a good queen. There are also treatment free ppl that keep queens and let those with more mite susceptible genetics simply die off. Keeping them around means keeping the drones they produce around and the genetics possibly breeding into you good queen lines.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mchrist152 said:


> ......... in my attempts to follow Mel Disselkoen's advice I killed both queens in both colonies ...........
> 
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Don't follow the advice blindly until you truly understand the logic of it (AND still agree with the logic once you understand it).

If you only have two hives and killed both queens - you just now put your entire operation at risk.
(consider - mating a new queen has a high chance of failing).

1) put your queen away into a 2-frame holding nuc (this is your roll-back plan for any old reason OR a new unit to maintain if things work out well).
2) no need to be killing queens right and left, anyway - a valuable queen is a keeper until ripe old age and is *irreplaceable *(only she can produces exact replica of herself - the drones - valuable drones, that is).


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

According to Mel the mating flight has a 15% failure rate. Since I've got 3 hives (after I split one) there will be a 0.3375% chance that all 3 mating flights will fail. On the other hand I've got a 61.4% chance of all three being successful. So odds are low that it will wipe out my operations and, in fact, I will probably end up with 3 healthy hives. But even if I only end up with 1 or 2 hives, that is far better than last year when the mites took all 2 of my hives. Thanks for your input and, admittedly, I'm still learning. The only guarantee is that I will know a lot more when this is over than I do now.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I would plan on making several small (mating) nucs with the cells and combine the ones where the queen does not make it back. Increase your odds of success. Going three for three with a positive result in the summer is unlikely. Last year I was one for ten.

Do you have dragonflys where you live? They find newly mated queens extra yummy.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Ditto on the dragonfly issue. The success rate is varied depending on many factors. Once I get into late summer, I forget getting queens back from mating flights. 15% sounds good for the middle of swarm season when all the factors are in their favor.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I never kill a good queen, I always move her over to a small nuc. By July 1, we have so many dragonflies and birds that I have only a 50% return rate on mating queens at that time. (In early spring, it is much better). I do try to annually requeen my big hives by pulling the queen and letting them make queen cells. In a topbar hive with new comb, you will find that you don't need to notch the cells to get beautiful queens.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Ruth, do you notice the return rate improving as it gets later in the summer? After my dismal mid-summer returns last year, I got about 75% late August. Too bad that is not really a good time to be making nucs, but I was able to get so so queens in all the queenless nucs after combining them. Most suprising was a mid Sept. swarm that produced a mated queen. I caught that one and had the daughter too.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Jadeguppy said:


> ... Personally, I would not have do it quite the same way...There are several brood break methods that don't require the killing of a good queen...





GregV said:


> ...If you only have two hives and killed both queens - you just now put your entire operation at risk. (consider - mating a new queen has a high chance of failing).
> 
> 1) put your queen away into a 2-frame holding nuc (this is your roll-back plan for any old reason OR a new unit to maintain if things work out well).
> 2) no need to be killing queens right and left, anyway - a valuable queen is a keeper until ripe old age...


I vote with these posters on this. Here in Texas, it will soon be too hot for optimal queen production. Successful Queen matings can go to one or two in ten over 95 degrees. All beekeeping IS local. I just lost a queen with a five year old green dot early this spring. You want to keep good genes/bees in your apiary. If you are lucky, it will work out for you. Good luck


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Well, I think I'm a long way from late summer. These queens should take their mating flights in July. Mid-Summer is Aug. 6th. Late summer would be Sep.


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Thanks for the input Ruth. I was wondering about the need for notching. Seems kind of weird that it is needed at all but if it is needed due to foundation that makes sense and something I'll try avoiding if I do this again. I'm basically just trying to get a hive to make it through the winter. I'm hoping the new queens will have more of the local genetics which should improve the odds of over wintering and also the brood break should hopefully take care of the mites although I'll probably still douse them with OA when they are without capped brood just to be sure. I'll keep you guys updated on the results.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

When it comes to bees, statistical probability takes second place to Murphy's Law! If any thing can go wrong it probably will, and it probably will be worse than you imagined it would!  When I have enough equipment it feels good to start a small nuc with the old queens until the new ones mate and prove themselves.

It is early enough yet to recover if yours dont make it back.


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## Thucar (Mar 11, 2017)

I did something very similar, at the start of June. Also following Mel's idea of post solstice queens. I had only one hive, a huge swarm I caught early in the season. I did not dare risk to kill the queen though, so for starters I moved her and a few frames of emerging brood into a nuc. (As a backup, should I have a queen not return.) This was on the 8th of June. Then let the main hive build their queen cells. On the 18th, couple days before the queens were due to emerge, I split the main hive into two, with 2-3 QC in each. 

Was in the hives last on the 29th to see if I could get a glimpse of new queens. I did see her in one hive, but the main hive had too many bees. They seemed relaxed as ever though, so I'm not worried. I'll be checking again in couple days to hopefully see some eggs.

Should either of these hives have queen issues, I will be combining it with the nuc with my old queen.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mchrist152 said:


> ...I was wondering about the need for notching...


Since I am on natural comb, I don't bother anymore with "notching" as bees will do what they want anyway.
Tried it - was waste of time.
Don't anymore.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mchrist152 said:


> Well, I think I'm a long way from late summer. These queens should take their mating flights in July. Mid-Summer is Aug. 6th. Late summer would be Sep.


Regardless of what time it is - just make a good practice to have a plan B.
Good luck!


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

This is really useful input, if only I had posted before I killed the queens Anyway, the only plan B I can think of is to buy a new queen if I'm not seeing any eggs by Aug. Now i don't know how hard that will be since I've never tried to buy a queen at that time but I may find out. Barring that, if the worst case scenario happens and I have no viable queens and cannot purchase one, I start over next year a little wiser and a little poorer.


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## Thucar (Mar 11, 2017)

GregV said:


> Since I am on natural comb, I don't bother anymore with "notching" as bees will do what they want anyway.
> Tried it - was waste of time.
> Don't anymore.


That is what I observed as well. I notched couple frames in a few places where I saw young larvae next to eggs. The bees completely ignored the notches and built their queen cells close by on an untouched comb.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mchrist152 said:


> This is really useful input, if only I had posted before I killed the queens Anyway, the only plan B I can think of is to buy a new queen if I'm not seeing any eggs by Aug. Now i don't know how hard that will be since I've never tried to buy a queen at that time but I may find out. Barring that, if the worst case scenario happens and I have no viable queens and cannot purchase one, I start over next year a little wiser and a little poorer.


In worst case scenario even a purchased queen in August will not save you.
This is because by then your queen-less bees will be too old to do anything and just die off (regardless if they get a new queen or not - they will die - queen alone is worthless).
Have to have young(-ish) bees if to rebuilt anything.

So - cross your fingers and wait; the success of queen mating rate is > 0 - keep this in mind.
It would be a good idea to mate NOT just 2 queens but 3-4 at the least.
Pull most every QC you have into its own little nuc - just only for the mating reasons - then combine as needed.
I would typically make temp mating nucs on 2-3 QCs each - just how it works out usually.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Thucar said:


> That is what I observed as well. I notched couple frames in a few places where I saw young larvae next to eggs. The bees completely ignored the notches and built their queen cells close by on an untouched comb.


Exactly, Thucar.
I am pretty sure now - all that "notching business" came about from plastic foundation usage.
The author of "notching" is not a natural beekeeper (but rather conventional) and so does not know this, I think.

Plastic throws bees off as they can not work through plastic foundation - pretty obviously. 
Then they look for any irregularity to hopefully set the cells (like notches).
To compare, bees can work around and through the natural comb in any way they want - so - don't even bother with the notching, save yourself a hassle.
Worst yet with notching - you tell the bees where the best eggs/larva are, presumably.
Well, the bees know best where the best eggs/larva are, not you.


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

I could split both hives since I have the equipment. That would give me 4 queens and 4 chances for a successful mating flight. I'll have to think about that.

I still think an August queen might save the day if needed. There are eggs and brood in both hives. They should hatch out later this month. That means there will be young bees in the hives at the beginning of August. Given a 6 week lifetime they should make it to Sep.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mchrist152 said:


> I could split both hives since I have the equipment. That would give me 4 queens and 4 chances for a successful mating flight. I'll have to think about that.
> 
> I still think an August queen might save the day if needed. There are eggs and brood in both hives. They should hatch out later this month. That means there will be young bees in the hives at the beginning of August. Given a 6 week lifetime they should make it to Sep.


IF there are present eggs - you maybe OK then.
Eggs are good to have right now.
Sounds like you have a good, workable plan.
Once you see capped QCs - you have about 1 week to make up temp mating splits.
Few days ago I was splitting myself too - while the new queens were already hatching - trying prevent unwanted QC destruction and improving my recovery chances (a queen-less hive, potentially).


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It’s good to have some nucs around. Then if you want to make a hive queenless you just pull the frame of brood with the queen and another frame of honey and put them in the nuc. Then if they don’t succeed in raising a new queen and getting her mated, you can always put her back. If they succeed you can always keep the queen around for spare parts or you can drop her in a jar of alcohol for swarm lure.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

JWPalmer said:


> Ruth, do you notice the return rate improving as it gets later in the summer? After my dismal mid-summer returns last year, I got about 75% late August. Too bad that is not really a good time to be making nucs, but I was able to get so so queens in all the queenless nucs after combining them. Most suprising was a mid Sept. swarm that produced a mated queen. I caught that one and had the daughter too.


I've had them successfully well-mated into Oct but I don't know if my percentage really improves over the summer percentage. I keep a queen castle going April to Oct and try and let my newly mated queens lay for a couple of weeks before I pull them and add another cell. Unless I'm supplemental feeding, the cell building isn't that great in July/Aug so I tend to let them go a bit longer in the queen castle before pulling. Supplemental feeding in the hive in July/Aug can cause robbing, so I just tend to slack off the queen rearing. I would not make a ton of queen cells in Sept around here because I've shifted focus into building up the overwintering nucs so they are the proper weight and population. I only have one or two going then, just to see what my return rate is, but that doesn't make for a good "data set" to let you know if it gets any better.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

Locate the closest club, these are local beekeepers. Usually someone in the club will have queens or know someone who does. Also clubs are a great place to get 40-50 more opinions about how to do something.


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## beemantn (Jan 4, 2019)

I have used Mel's OTS method for several years. Works flawlessly for me but I don't kill my old queens. I believe Mel suggests using old queens to make up nucs. If you don't want to increase, kill old queen AFTER new queen is mated & laying to your liking.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

mchrist152 said:


> This is really useful input, if only I had posted before I killed the queens Anyway, the only plan B I can think of is to buy a new queen if I'm not seeing any eggs by Aug. Now i don't know how hard that will be since I've never tried to buy a queen at that time but I may find out. Barring that, if the worst case scenario happens and I have no viable queens and cannot purchase one, I start over next year a little wiser and a little poorer.


Yes I would post for feedback and ideas on improved plans prior to killing the Queens. It is difficult to take good advise post incident.
You will find out what happens this way. When queen hatching and mating I put something colorful on the lid of the hive. Kids toys are the current trick, a blue sand pail, a green turtle, a red car. Something to help mark the spot for her to return. If your hive is white then add something for 2 weeks to help the new queen with orientation. Once she is laying it is no longer needed.
GG
GG


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Thanks unstunghero! I have joined a club and it has been very beneficial. But there are a ton of different opinions and, so, in the end one has to pick some that make sense and try them. Especially pick opinions that address problems encountered in the past - like mites. That is what I am in the process of doing and I have talked with beekeepers in my area that have killed the queen and notched the comb in early July with good results


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Thanks beemantn. Mel talks about dispatching the queen but doesn't really explain what that means. He also tries to rationalize killing a queen after only about a month of laying so I equated dispatching a queen with killing her but I may have gotten that wrong.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

You got it right, dispatch means kill. Mel however, has more than two hives. You need to adjust some of the advice to fit your situation. 

Regarding the opinions at your bee club, if it is anything like mine, there are really only a few experienced folks there. Most are newbees or beehavers that really do not have much to offer other than what they saw on Youtube. To help separate wheat from the chaff, do not take advice from a beekeeper that has to buy bees every year, or complains of high losses year over year.

Most things in beekeeping do make sense and you knew it when you felt guilty about killing your productive queen. Listen to those insticts.


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Just an update: I went in today and split both hives. One hive had 5 queen cells. I left 2 in the original hive, moved 2 to the new hive and dispatched one. I also decided to split the other hive to increase the number of mating flights and thus increasing the odds of a successful one. The second hive had only 2 queens cells. I left one in the original hive and moved the other to a new hive. BTW, the bees didn't use the notches I created at all. They instead created beautiful queen cells all by themselves. Things are going as planned so the real test will be how many well mated queens, if any, I end up with in Aug. Thanks again everybody for your wisdom and thoughts.


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## Thucar (Mar 11, 2017)

That is a good idea to lower your risks like that. Provided you manage to keep enough bees in each new split to take care of the brood, the queen and defend from robbers. I had issues with European Hornets harassing my smallest split (the original queen of the hive). things looked hairy for a bit since I did not notice it straight away. Luckily I had provided enough emerging brood for them to bounce back and bolster their defenses after a couple days. 

As it stands now, I'm waiting anxiously to be able to get into the main hive again. The second split with queen cells was ok when I checked them a week ago - the Queen had just started laying. The original nuc is doing great as well, lots of fresh capped brood. Main hive however had no eggs yet. We've had a lot of rain over the past week, so have not been able to check again. Hopefully there'll be a clear break in the next few days so I can take a peek. If there are no eggs, I'll either combine the hive with one of the nucs, or alternatively split all the resources between the two.


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Here's another update, yesterday I had one of my hives swarm. I think it had to be one of the one's with 2 queen cells and i think I know which one since I saw some bees on the ground in front of that hive. Anyway, I caught the swarm in a nuc box I made since I have no more full size hives. I will leave them there as insurance against a failed mating flight in one of the other hives.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Great luck that you saw it and caught it! I worked so hard to catch a swarm, headed by a breeder queen who was faltering (but they decided to swarm instead of supercede, there were lots of bees in that hive). THen the next morning, less than 24 hrs later, the bees were NOT IN THE DANG HIVE!!! they had absconded after I spent an hour trying to get bees on the ground into the hive with various ****amimie techniques. (I missed the box a bit when I swung the branch down).  

That swarm may well be headed by a virgin queen. You'll know soon, because either there will be eggs in less than 5 days (especially if you can offer resources, if there is no nectar flow or low stores in nuc u made up). Or there won't be eggs for at least 10, because her majesty has to go out and mate, then start laying. It's OK to decide you want a certain number of hives, and to "return" the swarm to another location - once that queen is back mated, or it is 3 weeks from when the swarm emerged and no eggs/brood. It's really not possible to find a virgin queen in a hive, unless it's pretty low in bee pop - she is smaller than when she's laying, and moves faster.  

And I miss queen cells if I don't shake off every ever-lovin bee off the comb when looking. I try to leave one, maybe 2, in a strong hive, to minimize virgin queen-headed swarms. Stinkers. Good luck!


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Here's an update:

First the good news: hive 1 looks great with a mated queen and plenty of eggs, larva, capped brood, and honey and a great laying pattern. The nuc hive that I caught a swarm probably from hive 1 has a queen and is growing well. It has eggs, larva and capped brood. Although the brood is small celled the cap appears to be domed so I'm not sure if it is worker brood or drone brood and, consequently, if I have a fertile queen.

Now the bad news: hive 2, 3, have no queen or sign of a queen. Plenty of honey but that is it.

Now for the ugly: hive 4 appears to have laying workers as I see multiple eggs per cell in a random pattern. If anybody has suggestions on what to do with this hive I would very much appreciate them.

I'm thinking I will combine hive 3 with 1 and the nuc with hive 2. Probably leave the laying worker hive alone until I figure out what to do with it. Advice welcome.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Yes.... fun with queen rearing, right? 

For the nuc, the domed cappings are not a good thing to see, as you are aware... now, are worker cells being converted into domed cells? that's the clincher right there. I have seen a young queen lay drone cells IN drone comb, but that was a patch that was ALREADY drone comb, not worker cells converted to drone comb. That queen may be hard to find; give them a frame of eggs from hive 1, see if the nuc tries to supercede?

And since WINTER is coming (with you being in CO), great point about combining queenless (but not laying worker) hives now with queenright ones. I'm not sure you want to combine 2, 3 and nuc with 1 though. I would definitely not do it on the same day if so! 

So, you have 1 queenright hive. There is just enough time to try to get a queen mated before frost, yes? Why not add a frame of eggs/larvae to each of your queenless hives (not the laying worker one)? 3 chances at a mated queen. 

DO NOT BUY A QUEEN AND INSTALL INTO ANY OF THESE HIVES.... if the hives with honey only are actually on their way to becoming laying workers, they won't accept a new queen. Wait until they take a frame with eggs/larvae and make queen cells - then they would be ready to accept a mated queen. 

Laying worker hive: if you can, add a frame with young larvae (like, tiny, not worm-sized) once a week until they build queen cells. 

So, some options. Just remember that unless a given hive makes queen cells, it is not going to be able to accept a mated queen. And the hives with "just honey" might be further along the laying-worker path that you'd expect, and give you a nasty surprise if you try to introduce a queen... I had that happen this year! 

Once the laying worker hive is "cured", redistributing the resources is easy. Try to freeze the frames now, to kill the brood, so they aren't ruined by being turned into drone cells. Maybe put them into the nuc?


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Thanks trishbookworm,

I've basically combined hive 1 (the queen right hive) with hive 3 which definitely did not have a queen. I had a barrier separating them (since I don't have any newspaper) but have since removed it and they appear to be getting along fine.

I've also combined hive 2 and the nuc. I think the nuc has a mated queen but not sure. I will have to watch this one carefully. The combine seems to have worked well as I'm seeing no fighting or contention of any kind. But is the queen mated well, that is the question I need to answer.

Regarding hive 4 (the potential laying worker hive) I'm leaving it alone for now. Most of the cells look normal with one egg laid in the middle. Only a few cells have multiple eggs in them. From my research, the multiple eggs could also be caused by an inexperienced queen just learning how to lay properly. So I'm going to look at this one again in a week to see if it has capped brood and, if so, is it drone or worker brood. If I find worker brood then I should be ok. We will see.


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## Thucar (Mar 11, 2017)

If it's only some cells with 2-3 eggs in them, I would not worry about it. It's most likely just a new queen getting the hang of it. I had one of my two queens do the same for a bit at the beginning. She's just overperforming 

In laying worker situations there are usually dozen or more eggs in each cell.


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Hi Thucar,

I'm hoping that is the case. I'm a little reluctant to jump to conclusions on any of this until I 99% sure. I may lose some hive that way but I think it's the best way to learn.


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## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

Mel recommends using good overwintered queens to make Nucs to overwinter for splitting next year


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

mchrist152 said:


> Thanks trishbookworm,
> 
> I've basically combined hive 1 (the queen right hive) with hive 3 which definitely did not have a queen. I had a barrier separating them (since I don't have any newspaper) but have since removed it and they appear to be getting along fine.
> 
> ...


A laying workers eggs will also be on the sides of the cells instead of down at the bottom.


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## mchrist152 (Jun 21, 2019)

Just an update:

First, on the hive that might have laying workers, I introduced a Saskatraz queen. Unfortunately, they might have balled her because I have not seen any eggs. On the other hand, I haven't seen a dead queen either. This hive is still alive and appears to be doing well in many ways but I suspect it doesn't have a queen. I will know more as we move into Spring.

The other hive died due to mites. This hive had brood and a good queen. I did the large brood break in July and then treated with OA in Aug. - 4 treatments 5 days apart. I was confident that mites were taken care of so I didn't check for the rest of the Fall. The hive died a few weeks ago and I did an autopsy. There was plenty of honey and the cluster died within eating distance of it. I took about 89 of the bees and put them into a bowl. I picked through the bees and was able to pull off about 19 mites and I'm sure I didn't get them all. I'm just astounded that the hive ended up with so many mites. Any pointers on what I did wrong and how to do better in the future would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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