# Could competitive displacement explain Michael Bush's treatment free bees?



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There is good evidence that one form of mite tolerance is actually caused by breeding bees infected with a less virulent form of deformed wing virus. This was documented in a treatment free apiary in England within the past year. The key difference is that bees infected with the less virulent form are not killed by DWV. The beekeeper involved thought for years that he was selecting bees that were mite tolerant. In reality, he was selecting for less virulent DWV. The end result was that his bees survive even when infested with large numbers of mites. The study divided DWV into type A which is highly virulent and type B which is much less infective.

Switch over to Mike Bush's bees and his description of how he got them treatment free which involved switching to small cell and eventually to local feral stock. There was no major breeding effort, he stated that commercial Carniolan queens in his colonies on small cell survived just fine. I submit that this is a good description of exactly what would happen if his bees have type B DWV.

Mike, this is intended only to initiate discussion! Please comment with your thoughts on whether this could be the source of your bees long term survival.


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## WilliesHoneyCo (Jun 23, 2013)

Fusion_Power,

Having a background in ecology I would say that this should happen eventually in all parasitic relationships. The parasite is not successful if it kills its host. In nature left on their own most organisms can develop a relationship that doesn't kill both. This has happened to an extent with tracheal mites already, I don't know anybody who treats for them anymore or really has a big problem with them. This type of change requires that both sets of organisms have selective pressure. To a large part the reason we don't have better resistance for varroa is because the selection pressure has been removed from the bees. This creates a lopsided situation where you breed super mites but wimpy bees. 


Willie


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

If the treatment free success was based on bee genetics alone, then we could simply buy queens from successful treatment free sources and have treatment free hives. It does not work this way. The same with small cell. I have been suggesting for several years that tf success was based on virus virulence, hive microbes, and or a local environmental factors. So this finding is not a surprise to me.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

"Having a background in ecology I would say that this should happen eventually in all parasitic relationships. The parasite is not successful if it kills its host. In nature left on their own most organisms can develop a relationship that doesn't kill both. This has happened to an extent with tracheal mites already, I don't know anybody who treats for them anymore or really has a big problem with them. This type of change requires that both sets of organisms have selective pressure. To a large part the reason we don't have better resistance for varroa is because the selection pressure has been removed from the bees. This creates a lopsided situation where you breed super mites but wimpy bees."



"If the treatment free success was based on bee genetics alone, then we could simply buy queens from successful treatment free sources and have treatment free hives. It does not work this way. The same with small cell. I have been suggesting for several years that tf success was based on virus virulence, hive microbes, and or a local environmental factors. So this finding is not a surprise to me." 

All of this makes perfect sense.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've said many times that location must play a factor in the varroa mite and virus equation.


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

How do you then select for the less-virulent DWV? Do we all try to get nucs from Mr. Bush or Squarepeg or Fusionpower (presuming their bees are infected with the less virulent strain) and try to propagate them?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

How does one bee virus strain competively displace another strain of virus? In other words, how does exposure to or infection by one virus prevent bees from being infected with a different strain of virus?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> There is good evidence that one form of mite tolerance is actually caused by breeding bees infected with a less virulent form of deformed wing virus. This was documented in a treatment free apiary in England within the past year. .


How did they rule out that Ron Hoskins bees did not have other varroa resistance qualities (taking out infested larvae, grooming etc.) as well? Did they take his bees to someone elses beeyard for a test? (My bees were tested resistant in Paul Jungels hives, 1500 km south from here, no need to test if there might be viruses as well. Or maybe they should be tested? I only sended him queens.)


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

I know nothing about the mechanics of insect immunity but one of the earliest inoculations for human disease involved infecting a person with the less virulent cowpox to confer immunity for smallpox. Similar but in a much different animal.
Bill


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## WilliesHoneyCo (Jun 23, 2013)

When you have rapid changes in a population it becomes stable faster if you have less new inputs (imported bees) to slow down the process. I would think over a couple generations the more virulent type of DWV would die out if the population was left alone. Then I think about the Weaver clan in Texas who has selectively bred their bees to not have problems with DWV. I think that there are a number of factors at work and it would be hard to pin improvements on just one. Environment, management and genetics all come into play.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

WilliesHoneyCo said:


> When you have rapid changes in a population it becomes stable faster if you have less new inputs (imported bees) to slow down the process.


No fact is known about Bush's bees, and he is frustratingly ambiguous and evasive when pressed for details ("I can find a USB cable"). The last known picture he posted (of dead brood comb), he stated was from a top-bar colony of *Package* bees.

Why would a top-flight producer of TF queens be installing _package_ bees, riddle me that? That statement seems to negate all the hand waving about his "closed population" developing hypovirulence.

The published research all shows a virulent strain of DWV replacing a diversity of other lineages along the Varroa invasion front. (viz reports from Hawaii, New Zealand, northern Scotland).

Its a happy thought that evolution brings "balance" back to the Varroa-European Honey Bee equation, but the claim that this is the inevitable trajectory represents the "peaceable kingdom" fallacy.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

JWChesnut said:


> The published research all shows a virulent strain of DWV replacing a diversity of other lineages along the Varroa invasion front. (viz reports from Hawaii, New Zealand, northern Scotland).
> 
> Its a happy thought that evolution brings "balance" back to the Varroa-European Honey Bee equation, but the claim that this is the inevitable trajectory represents the "peaceable kingdom" fallacy.


I'm curious; can you tell us about the "peaceable kingdom" fallacy John?

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

johngfoster said:


> How do you then select for the less-virulent DWV? Do we all try to get nucs from Mr. Bush or Squarepeg or Fusionpower (presuming their bees are infected with the less virulent strain) and try to propagate them?


It wouldn't hurt to get some of Mike Bush's/survivor/any tf success bees John. Though my guess is the 'type B' virus will be present in all populations. It will just need a bit of selection. And of course that includes freedom from treatment-dependent bees

Its an interesting discussion. But it circles back in my mind to John Kefus' aeroplane analogy: You don't need to know how it _works_; you just need to know _that_ it works'.

The way you select for the what-works is by keeping your stocks in a uniform way and making increase as much as possible from those that do best. In medievalese: 'Put best to best'. That will reduce the incidence of pathogens that reduce efficiency and promote those micro-organisms, proteins and behaviours that enhance it. Any 'Type B' viruses will be suitably promoted by that process. 

Mike (UK)


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

mike bispham said:


> I'm curious; can you tell us about the "peaceable kingdom" fallacy John?
> 
> Mike (UK)


According to JW, we are all dead and don't know it.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I can't state that type B DWV is not present in my bees, but I can state that my bees do not have large varroa populations. This strongly suggests other genetic factors are at work.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> I've said many times that location must play a factor in the varroa mite and virus equation.


I think it would be really informative to map tf success and rate of mortality within the tf ranks using GIS and overlay it with other factors especially continental migratory bee movement. It could be a useful proxy for disease dynamics. Lots of room for scientific inquiry here.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Riverderwent said:


> How does one bee virus strain competively displace another strain of virus? In other words, how does exposure to or infection by one virus prevent bees from being infected with a different strain of virus?


"How do you then select for the less-virulent DWV"

Read Willie's Honey Co post above.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

WilliesHoneyCo said:


> I think that there are a number of factors at work and it would be hard to pin improvements on just one. Environment, management and genetics all come into play.


I think you're right, but we can flesh it out a bit. Environment and genetics are always in play for example; while management might involve any number of variables. Bad management will always frustrate the natural development toward independent health by removing pressures.

I think its right to understand that the unit: 'bees and their microbiological co-organisms' will, left alone, locate an optimal balance through natural selection in any given environment. It may be different in different places mind. 

Management will speed/arrest and/or shape the balance (though hands-off 'management' = more-or-less natural selection) 

Interesting, trying to think this through... This (microbiology) is Deknow's country...

Mike (UK)


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It does not matter whether you are selecting for allogrooming, Varroa Sensitive Hygiene, or less virulent DWV. So long as the bees survive, the result is essentially the same. I'd suggest that beekeepers in England are more likely to breed type B DWV. Note that there is a recent dutch study showing that two different tolerance mechanisms developed in two separate populations of bees bred for survival of mite infestation.

https://www.wageningenur.nl/en/news...arroa-mites-may-use-different-mechanisms-.htm


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Fusion_power said:


> So long as the bees survive, the result is essentially the same.


I suppose one could argue that the result is the same until something else happens, another pressure is bought to bear, at which stage one strategy may work better than the other. But ideally, and I think likely in reality, a reasonably broad genetic spread will carry all options at a low level, ready to be raised in the population at such time they supply an advantage. That remains my approach, and I'll need some convincing before I start interfering with what is happening naturally. I haven't spent a lot of time observing this year, but I've yet to see any DWV. It seems to have been decreasing year on year.

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Juhani Lunden said:


> How did they rule out that Ron Hoskins bees did not have other varroa resistance qualities (taking out infested larvae, grooming etc.) as well?


I think this is the study in question 

http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ismej2015186a.html

Ron Hoskins is I think the original 'biting bees' selector. If they nip your forearms, they're good at nipping varroa. I don't know if he still stands by that. 

I agree, presence of 'type B' viruses may be a great help, but only one of a toolbox against loss of efficiency due to varroa. In an ideal world a local population will carry lots of tools, and combinations of them will find their way into colonies via subfamilies. Those combinations that work best... 

Mike (UK)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"How do you then select for the less-virulent DWV"

Stop treating.


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