# EXTRACTING FOUNDATIONLESS and WIRELESS FRAMES



## Mountainboomer (Jan 17, 2013)

Hello , I have never tried foundationless frames b-4 ,but I wanted to try to get a few with our sourwood flow, mainly for my father for his birthday. Well we ended up with several filled and capped frames and were going to try to extract several in our new extractor , now I am asking for some suggestions on what you might think is a good way to do so with out blowing them out. Any help , Thanks


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## Bees In Miami (Nov 30, 2012)

Start spinning S..L..O..W..L..Y....

Is your extractor radial or tangential, or either/or? Radial extraction gives the comb more support...flip often...


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## Mountainboomer (Jan 17, 2013)

Our extractor is a radial {BM 9 FRAME}


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## Bees In Miami (Nov 30, 2012)

I mis-spoke....tangential extraction gives the frames more support...so with that extractor, you can start spinning 3 frames at a time tangentially...slowly...flip...spin again slowly...flip a couple times...once you get the weight off the frame, you can spin radially to finish...
That is how I would handle it.... Fun sticky times!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Bees In Miami said:


> you can spin radially to finish...


If you have the ability to spin radially why would you do anything else?


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## JoeM (Dec 31, 2012)

I have cut 1/2 inch pieces of hardware cloth to size that fits over each side of the frame. This makes a sandwich of the frame between two pieces of hardware cloth. Two rubber bands to hold it in place. Extra time but keeps the comb from blowing out. Second year you won't have to do this.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I will bet it very much the same as putting 3-6 rubber bands on the frame.


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## Bees In Miami (Nov 30, 2012)

Acebird said:


> If you have the ability to spin radially why would you do anything else?


Radial extraction puts centrifugal force from the inside out...side to side with no support to the comb. Tangentially, the comb is resting against the wire frame of the basket, giving it pretty balanced support across the comb. When I have a frame that starts to bow, I put it aside, and extract tangentially. I can count on two fingers the number of blow outs I have had...and that is when my husband was "helping" spinning, and I was out pulling more frames... (Yeah...he probably did a "How fast can this thing go???" kinda thing....)


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

On a tangential extractor the honey from one side of the comb is blocked from being expelled. This is why you have to go slow and keep flipping the frame in stages to get the other side cleared. On a radial extractor the bottom of the frame is toward the center where the force is the least. The top of the frame is the strongest and has the most support. If one were to take the same care by supporting the bottom comb so it can't wag to the side and start off slow and gradually build up speed you can extract the frames without the flipping procedure. It would be my hunch that the most of the damage to foundationless comb is done in the uncapping stage. The extractor just displays the dynamic results of uncapping.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The Brushy Mountain 9 frame radial extractor that the OP says he/she has comes with a set of baskets/cages to allow for tangential extraction of frames, if desired.



> With the addition of the included set of cages you can tangentially extract 3 brood frames (9 1/8").
> 
> http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/9-Frame-Hand-Radial-Extractor-w_-Honey-Tank/productinfo/806/


That seems like a _practical_ solution for extracting the "few frames" of foundationless that the OP mentioned.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Mountainboomer said:


> Our extractor is a radial {BM 9 FRAME}


I had blow out when I tried extracting my frames radially. When I switched to do them tangentially I hardly ever get blow out. My extractor (maxant) has a nice basket that supports the comb tangentially. No matter what you do slower is better to start with foundationless. In the future if you wire with metal or fishing line it might make extracting a little easier.


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## Wolfer (Jul 15, 2012)

I had a few blowouts with my homemade two frame extractor mainly due to my cordless drill spinning it too fast. 
I lined the face of the basket with chicken wire and pretty much fixed my problem. Now I use a right angle drill that I can control the speed better and haven't blown any out this year. Even though several were new brood frames and were only attached at the top.


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## Zbee (Apr 15, 2014)

Bees in Miami has it right. I run foundationless frames, first year and extracted using a Maxant 3 frame extractor. I find the key is to keep the pressure low by flipping often. A bit more work, but nice results.

I also find the hot capping knives did more damage than the extracting. I am sure I was not doing it right, but it pulled the comb off the frame on some of the thick stuff. Finally just used a comb scratcher by itself - more work, but I really was trying not to ruin the comb.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

You are talking about deep frames? I'm very interested in this subject too as I'm using unwired foundationless deep frames.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Zbee said:


> I also find the hot capping knives did more damage than the extracting.


A cold knife would be worse. Like I say the damage can occur in the uncapping stage. I think JoeM has it right support the bottom comb some way somehow even in the uncapping stage. The more you handle the frame the more likely you are to damage it enough that it blows out in the extractor.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

We extract unwired foundation less deeps routinely and have very few problems. We use a tangential.

I also flip back and forth a couple of times at the beginning of the cycle to 8 load the bulk of the weight.

Interestingly, a friend in Hawaii reported someone having good success by un capping and completely draining one side before un capping the Other side....The idea being that the cappings add stiffness and strength to the comb.

Deknow


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

As Bees-in-Miama said, "S.L.O.W.L.Y. I think some large rubber bands over the frames and a slow start would be the ticket. You can add speed as the honey flows and lightens the load which in turn reduces the centrifugal force. I think it is workable. Someone at our local bee club told about using the rubber bands and how they worked. Extraction is your reward for doing a good job, so go slow and enjoy it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> The idea being that the cappings add stiffness and strength to the comb.


Great, how does that work for the second side?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Great, how does that work for the second side? 

It weighs half as much on the second side...


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

cristianNiculae said:


> You are talking about deep frames? I'm very interested in this subject too as I'm using unwired foundationless deep frames.


I helped friends extract yesterday with a new Maxant extractor. We did 3 deep frames 1 of which had foundation, the other 2 were foundationless. not a blowout to bee seen anywhere.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >Great, how does that work for the second side?
> 
> It weighs half as much on the second side...


So you aught to be able to go twice as fast right? I wouldn't try it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> So you aught to be able to go twice as fast right? 

:scratch:
Seems like a *prudent *beekeeper would take just as much care and time extracting the second side of the frame as he/she did with the first side.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The point is the comb is not fully supported in a tangential extractor unless the uncapping makes the comb perfectly flat (and of course there are no low spots). In a radial extractor the comb is positioned in it's strongest attitude. Supporting the comb at the bottom bar so it can't move out is all that is necessary.


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## jredburn (Feb 25, 2012)

Go to a hardware store and buy few feet of 1/4" hardware cloth (wire mesh). Cut a strip as wide as your frame and twice as long as the frames are tall + 1 1/2". Fold it into a basket, drop the frame into the basket and slid both into the extractor. Spin as usual. Repeat as required.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So you aught to be able to go twice as fast right? I wouldn't try it. 

Didn't we remove the caps that were supporting the first side?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >So you aught to be able to go twice as fast right? I wouldn't try it.
> 
> Didn't we remove the caps that were supporting the first side?


Yes you did. You also removed the honey. The two or thee mills of wax on top of the honey is likely not going to support the comb in bending. It is the honey supporting the comb because it can't get out of the cell. Centrifugal force causes the honey to exert force on the sidewalls of the comb because it is a liquid. Now how does that work when the honey is gone for the second side?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Centrifugal force causes the honey to exert force on the sidewalls of the comb because it is a liquid. Now how does that work when the honey is gone for the second side?


:scratch:

Well, Ace, from what I understand, the comb under discussion is being extracted in a *tangential *fashion. Here is a link to the post at the core of your question ....


deknow said:


> We extract unwired foundation less deeps routinely and have very few problems. We use a tangential.


In _tangential _extraction, as the center of the face of the frame/comb is parallel to the sidewall of the tank, centrifugal force applies _very little force _to the _sidewalls _of the comb cell. 

As you may see from the edit timestamp, I wasn't satisfied with the phrasing of the word "parallel" to describe comb orientation in a tangential extraction as I wrote above, and found this handy diagram to better explain what I meant ...







Photo credit


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

I'm in the process of extracting and so far have extracted over 400 medium frames mostly foundationless and a lot of them are this years drawn comb. I use a Maxant 20 frame radial. I have had only one blow out. Starting slow is the key. If they are not attached good put two or three rubber bands around the frame. I just use a capping scratcher or a cold knife if the comb is thick. Don't like to heat the honey.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Yes you did. You also removed the honey. The two or thee mills of wax on top of the honey is likely not going to support the comb in bending.

A solid sheet of wax on the surface will support the comb a lot. That was the reason for leaving it in the first place. This is tangential so the honey couldn't get out that way anyway until the frame is reversed.

> It is the honey supporting the comb because it can't get out of the cell.

When you add up the weight of the honey causing more force and the presence of the honey adding some stiffness because it can't get out the cappings, I don't see how the one outdoes the other...

>Centrifugal force causes the honey to exert force on the sidewalls of the comb because it is a liquid. Now how does that work when the honey is gone for the second side? 

Since it's flat (as in "tangential") the force of honey is cut in half when you reverse the comb and do the second half. The first half is empty (as it would be in any case even if you uncapped both sides) and the second have is full (as it would be in any case even if you uncapped both sides in the first place). The only difference was the additional strength of the cappings when doing the first side.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> In _tangential _extraction, as the center of the face of the frame/comb is parallel to the sidewall of the tank, centrifugal force applies _very little force _to the _sidewalls _of the comb cell.


You don't understand that pressure on a fluid gets transmitted in all directions. Imagine a swimming pool. The force of gravity pulls down on the water and the ground holds it up. There is an equal force on the side walls (per unit area) at the bottom pushing the side walls out. Exactly the same in each cell with honey in it. They are little swimming pools. The thin capping is incapable of supporting the comb because the bending force is in compression. No matter which type of extractor you use you have to support the comb and start slow until some of the honey is removed. The only reason I can see for using a radial extractor in the tangential mode would be because a deep frame does not fit radially. But if you like what your doing have at it.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I ran some partially capped wired wax frames through a manual tangential extraction without uncapping. I was able to spin the honey out of the uncapped cells without disturbing the coverings on capped cells. I did not have to get up to a lot of speed and flipped for each side. Refractometer reading on that honey was just over 18% moisture. 

I then uncapped the remaining capped cells and spun that honey out using a little more speed after the second flip. The reading on that second extraction showed about 17.5% moisture.

I am sure the same thing could be done with foundationless frames; If the honey is liquid, you really only have to exceed the capillary and surface tension and the honey will flow. The newer the wax the more patience needed. I wasted time because I was experimenting with honey that was ripe but still not capped. I bet I put more g forces on the combo trying the shake test.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> In tangential extraction, as the center of the face of the frame/comb is parallel to the sidewall of the tank, centrifugal force applies very little force to the sidewalls of the comb cell.


Acebird said:


> You don't understand that pressure on a fluid gets transmitted in all directions. Imagine a swimming pool. The force of gravity pulls down on the water and the ground holds it up. There is an equal force on the side walls (per unit area) at the bottom pushing the side walls out. Exactly the same in each cell with honey in it.


I certainly do understand that the centrifugal forces acting on a cell of honey while the tangential extractor reel (and the comb therein) is rotating is _*NOT *_the same as mass/gravity forces acting on the water (at rest) in a swimming pool. 

Ace, in your earlier post, you pointed out that _*centrifugal force*_ acts on the honey to expel it from the comb in the *spinning *extractor reel. Where/what, _pray tell_, kind of _*centrifugal force*_ is acting on _*water *_in a swimming pool? :s 


:ws:


... maybe you should hit those _engineering _books to answer that one ...


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I have shelves of engineering books and after a careful reading of them all, I still haven't found the section that encourages engineering wannabees to argue with those doing something successfully that it will not work.

But telling how it should be done is easier than actually acquiring the knowledge and experience of doing it. (And it helps in hyper-inflating the post count.)

Wayne


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

waynesgarden said:


> argue with those doing something successfully that it will not work.


Who said those doing something successfully does not work? Exactly. Yet I can name a few who rephrase peoples posts so that it sounds like something they think was said. And then there are those who haven't a clue that the force of gravity on a liquid gives the same reaction as a centrifugal force on a liquid contained in a cell.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

So when are you going to let us in on the secret? :lookout:



... _rotating _swimming pools? ... :scratch:


Please note that clicking the blue arrow in every Beesource quote box will bring up the original post for your review. No misquoting from me!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Am I halucinating, or did Ace just prove that un capping is a waste of time? Just spin the frames and the honey will come shooting out.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Is that what the split top frames are for? Maybe they wouldnt vent the honey if used in a tangental spinner! Is Nabber's "Poe's Law" at work here?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

What? You guys are on drugs....


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Well when you appear that you are explaining something that is grade school physics, with all the solemnity due the mysteries of the universe, then you might expect to have your chain shaken a bit.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> Well when you appear that you are explaining something that is grade school physics,


When someone doesn't understand something you try to make your explanation simpler using examples of other things they might understand. How do you explain something, take it up a couple of levels.


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