# Disadvantages to using wire in frames



## robere (Sep 4, 2016)

I've started using wire in my frames instead of fishing line. I've used fishing line in the past and so many times I find that the bees chew it in half. I've even seen a couple of times where the line was hanging out the front of the hive where the bees tried to drag it out of the hive. I'm wiring my frames for next year and decided to go with wire. I don't use foundation at all so I have to have the support. 
So the only disadvantages I can think of would be that it may be a little more difficult to cut the comb out when I need to change it out and it would make it more difficult to cut queen cells at times. The bees seem to like putting cells right on the fishing line.
Anyone have any other disadvantages? I just can't justify using fishing line if on so many occasions they chew it in half.. Thanks.


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## tom0354 (May 25, 2018)

did you tried w/o the supported wire? I started out with foundation on the brood boxes but for the super I used foundation less w/o any wire and have been slowly replace the brood with foundation less. There is no issue at all just to be careful in handling the frame instead of carelessly swing it around.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

robere said:


> Anyone have any other disadvantages?


It needs tensioning, and it'll cut into the wood unless ferrules are used. Bees will only chew fishing line if it's thin - using thicker line is one solution.

Or - for foundationless, you could try using bamboo skewers, vertically or horizontally. 
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Maybe it is different bees, but I found they chewed 30 lb. test monofilament line. Maybee I have some of those "mite biter" bees!
As to the pain and price of installing ferrules, I switched to T50 staples. You only need a staple where the pull will be splitting the grain. Cross grain does not bite into the wood, especially if you use the crimping tensioner. I would never go back to trying to tension by pulling on the wire.

I suppose with diagonal nippers you could still cut out the queen cells from wired frames; the bees will fill the holes but almost guaranteed drone though.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

crofter said:


> Maybe it is different bees, but I found they chewed 30 lb. test monofilament line.


They will - try 50-60 lb sea fishing line. Only mice will chew through that (ask me how I know this ...) 
LJ


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## robere (Sep 4, 2016)

tom0354 said:


> did you tried w/o the supported wire? I started out with foundation on the brood boxes but for the super I used foundation less w/o any wire and have been slowly replace the brood with foundation less. There is no issue at all just to be careful in handling the frame instead of carelessly swing it around.


During really hot weather, I've had several frames break right at the honey line even after being real careful.


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## robere (Sep 4, 2016)

little_john said:


> It needs tensioning, and it'll cut into the wood unless ferrules are used. Bees will only chew fishing line if it's thin - using thicker line is one solution.
> 
> Or - for foundationless, you could try using bamboo skewers, vertically or horizontally.
> LJ


I am using the ferrules. I use the installer and it's no problem putting them in


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## robere (Sep 4, 2016)

little_john said:


> They will - try 50-60 lb sea fishing line. Only mice will chew through that (ask me how I know this ...)
> LJ


Would I still have to use the furrules with line that thick? I'd think if wire would cut into the wood, fishing line that thick would too.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Quite the reverse - wire cuts into soft wood precisely because it has such a small diameter, whereas with the much larger diameter of heavy fishing line the pressure is spread over a larger area. Think about how a sharp knife cuts into wood easily, whereas a blunt one doesn't. Same principle.
Also, monofilament needn't be highly tensioned as it has a 'stretch factor', and doesn't need to be what I call 'banjo tight'. Just tight enough to give a 'thuck' sound when plucked. After all, it's function is only to prevent the comb from flopping excessively from side to side - a little bit of 'give' is perfectly ok - the comb itself doesn't need to be held rigidly.
LJ


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

We use the stainless steel wire. Pain to do it but it lasts a long time. Cutting comb is no issue if you need to do it. We raise our own queens so not an issue for us but if they are putting off cells they wont all be on wire. For the time it takes to wire a frame I would use something that gives me the greatest duration.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

I had the same problem with the bees chewing through even 50lb test monofilament. Went to a chaff resistant line but the lack of "stretch" made tensioning too difficult. Finally went with wire and the ferrules. I made a wiring jig that bows the frame slightly to add the tension without me trying to pull the wire. I find the ferrules a PIA but the wire will cut into the wood, I may need to try crofter's staple method to see it speeds thing up.
I don't cut out that many queen cells but haven't had a problem when I do. I built my solar melter to accommodate full size frames and the super wax just melts off, brood comb needs a slight bit of help; a sharp knife also works but takes a little more care.


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## robere (Sep 4, 2016)

Hillbillybees said:


> We use the stainless steel wire. Pain to do it but it lasts a long time. Cutting comb is no issue if you need to do it. We raise our own queens so not an issue for us but if they are putting off cells they wont all be on wire. For the time it takes to wire a frame I would use something that gives me the greatest duration.


This has always been my philosophy. Do it less often. It really hasn't been that much of a pain to put the wire on. I use pliers to pull it and the wire is tight. When doing something new, its good to ask people that have been there to hear the disadvantages before going any farther.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

For me the goal when using fishing line was just to keep the foundation flat until they draw out enough comb to stiffen the foundation so it would no longer bow. Preventing bowing was my main concern. It definitely will help in extraction to prevent blowout but if your careful the embedded vertical wires are usually enough.

Wiring or the need for somekind of support with wax foundation was the main reason I switched to plastic. Plastic has it's on problems but wiring frames was a task I hated. For just a few hives ide wire em, for more than a few ide use plastic. Deeps are a must, mediums not so important unless your using them for brood.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

burns375 said:


> For me the goal when using fishing line was just to keep the foundation flat until they draw out enough comb to stiffen the foundation so it would no longer bow. Preventing bowing was my main concern.


Which raises an interesting question - who decided the dimensions of frame sidebars ? The commercial flat-pack stuff I use (for sales) have side-bars 10mm thick ... or should that be 'thin' ? There's no reason I can see why side-bars couldn't be 15mm thick.



> Deeps are a must, mediums not so important unless your using them for brood.


Agreed - extra-deep broods pose a particular problem in this regard. For my double-deep trials I've used 15mm side bars with 4 horizontal skewers, although 3 would probably suffice.

It did occur to me that support is only needed while combs are being drawn out - once drawn and a year or two old, they become fully self-supporting - so, with this in mind I've made a test deep (8.5") frame with 'withdrawable/removable' vertical supports. Will be testing it out this coming season.
LJ


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## blainenay (Oct 14, 2011)

robere said:


> ....I just can't justify using fishing line if on so many occasions they chew it in half.


I use the same 10-pound-test monofilament line I use for trout fishing. I've never had the bees chew through it. That said, I prefer wire over monofilament and plastic foundation over wire. I have some of each in my operation, but plastic foundation is the only thing I know that won't break up in the extractor. (BTW, anyone here remember the aluminum foundation that hit the market back in the '60s?)


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The use of fishing line was invented by people who didn't want to take the trouble to make themselves a wire tensioning jig. Fishing line for frames especially appeals to non conformist types who think wire is "unnatural", but fishing line of course, is "natural". Go figure.


If using comb foundation, fishing line cannot be heat embedded, so fishing line people go to elaborate processes to get the foundation to stay in the right place, instead of the few seconds it takes to electrically embed wire.

The only advantage I would see with fishing line is that if you want to make cut comb honey you can cut it without having to first pull the wire. But on the other hand, what customer eating their comb honey at the breakfast table wants to find a bit of string in it?


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

little_john said:


> For my double-deep trials I've used 15mm side bars with 4 horizontal skewers, although 3 would probably suffice.


Where are you getting long enough skewers LJ? Presumably these are for National or wider frames? The longest bamboo I could find (though I didn't look *that* hard) were too short. Vertical bamboo work well and I like being able to slice out segments of sealed drone comb panel by panel.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

fatshark said:


> Where are you getting long enough skewers LJ? Presumably these are for National or wider frames? The longest bamboo I could find (though I didn't look *that* hard) were too short. Vertical bamboo work well and I like being able to slice out segments of sealed drone comb panel by panel.


Hello David - for standard (8.5") deeps I found that the bog-standard skewers ex.Tesco were fine, installed vertically - I guess this is what you're using too. Those are around 3mm diameter.

For horizontal installation, I've been buying 16" (400mm) bamboo skewers at around 6 or 7 pounds a hundred from EWC in Manchester. These are much thicker at 4.5mm. EWC are currently offering this size at 22 pounds for 500, although I'm sure they'd sell you a 100 if asked. Ebay #121388772605

There's also a company https://www.skewers.co.uk/ based in Newark, who very kindly sent me some samples a while back - their prices are good: 400mm x 5mm x1000 for 25 pounds (plus VAT & 6 quid carriage) - but that assumes you want a thousand !

I agree - cutting out panels of comb is really quite handy 
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> The use of fishing line was invented by people who didn't want to take the trouble to make themselves a wire tensioning jig. Fishing line for frames especially appeals to non conformist types who think wire is "unnatural", but fishing line of course, is "natural". Go figure.


What a load of rhubarb ...

As I've NEVER used foundation, I've never had any interest in using wire. I used to run unsupported foundationless (which wasn't entirely satisfactory) until a guy on the Scottish forum mentioned the use of fishing line, and so I gave it a trial. I had plenty of line line and the required drawing pins (thumb tacks) handy - so used 'em. Simple as that. Nothing to do with being non-conformist, or not having a jig or that absurd 'natural' argument you mention.

Anyway - fishing line proved to be better than unsupported, but not totally ideal as the bees would sometimes draw comb to one side of it. Which told me that they really don't like the stuff, and will only incorporate it if they have zero choice in the matter. So - I started using bamboo skewers for support instead.

Now they're not perfect either - but the difference is that the bees actually WANT to attach their combs to those long thin rods of wood. They actually LIKE using them for support. So - until something better comes along, that's what I'll use.

Would I ever use wire ? No. Why on earth would I want to ? The fact that ferrules are necessary in order to prevent the wire from cutting into the wooden frame tells me that that system is flawed. Wire might work well enough embedded within foundation, but then you won't find any embossed foundation within this apiary.
LJ


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

little_john said:


> Would I ever use wire ? No. Why on earth would I want to ?


Because you said that the bees don't like your fishing line and your bamboo is not perfect either.



little_john said:


> So - until something better comes along, that's what I'll use.


That better thing is wire, which typical non conformist, you have an opinion on but never actually tried. I say, rhubarbs to you. 

.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

You seem to have a 'thing' about non-conformists (?). If our history was about people always conforming to what 'everybody else' was doing, then we'd still be living in caves and wearing bear-skins.

Do tell me - what's the attraction of conforming ? Is it about being safe and secure in the knowledge that you're not offending anyone-else's sense of 'the right way' to do something ?

Don't misunderstand me - I have the outward appearance of a conformist in terms of dress, personal appearance, car, house, garden (well ... almost) - because I can't see there's much of an advantage to be gained by presenting one's self as some kind of ageing 60's rebel.

But beekeeping - now that's totally different. Since the days of Langstroth, beekeepers have been steered in their thinking by the commercial interests of hardware manufacturers. Box sizes, frame sizes and their styles have all been decided *for beekeepers, by manufacturers* and, believing that these manufacturers must know best, their stuff has been duly purchased on that basis.

But in some parts of the world the 'big sell' of Langstroth-style equipment has NOT been successful - A-Z hives and Layens hives (both with a lot of mileage behind them) are just two which readily come to mind.

And then there are the hobby-beekeepers who make up the lion's share of beekeepers here in Britain. Why on earth are hobbyists using beekeeping equipment designed for commercial use ? This doesn't happen in other fields of endeavour. I don't see too many householders commuting to work or doing their weekly supermarket shop in a ten-ton truck.

And so I've tried (and am still trying) different aspects of beekeeping in order to see for myself what works and what doesn't. I've tried the Kenyan Top Bar Hive and the so-called Tanzanian, I've tried Warre Hives and *I've tried working with the wired frames that I acquired with some nucs I once purchased.* None of these proved anywhere near satisfactory. My current system is pretty good (which is why I use it) but I'm sure it can still be further improved upon. 
LJ


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Power to you, you non conformist heretic you 

Seriously though, is your name perchance John Little? My last name is Little, maybe we are related


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Power to you, you non conformist heretic you
> 
> Seriously though, is your name perchance John Little? My last name is Little, maybe we are related


LOL 

I'll PM you re: the Little name - might have a lead for you ...
LJ


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I don't think my bees like wire at all.







This started out as a perfectly good piece of wired foundation. All the existing cells are fully drawn. Now it is going to the melting pot.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Those bees weren't ready for it. Other than varroa wiring is/was my biggest headache. Throw some plastic in there and the wires are gone.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

This queen must not have been informed that bees are not supposed to like wire or about the importance of housel positioning! I dont know if the forum software reduces the quality too much to be seen.

I could also cherry pick some frames from other time or hive condition and see lots of wires being chewed around. With a quality job of embedding the wire on the midrib they do a good job with it. 

If I had to count every cent I would certainly consider foundationless for the brood boxes. Unless a newbee gets experience from someone who truly knows how the hang and crosswire foundation properly it will not be a good experience for them.


Edit; Lost too much detail but there are eggs laid directly on wires and housel positioning is wrong according to the _Xperts_!


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

That one frame was cherry picked, I have exactly two that look like that out of about 300.

You can make out a few eggs on your wires. Some of mine do tend to avoid laying eggs on the vertical wires, others just keep on going. Wierd. I need to use up around 100 sheets of foundation but otherwise going foundationless in the brood box, some with 20# mono others nothing but the starter strip. Want to see for myself how my bees handle it. I think that is why there are differing opinions, different bees either are ok with monofiliment line or they are not. No telling until you try.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yes, I am sure that different weather and flow conditions, age of queen, age of colony, selection for grooming characteristics etc. are all key to what experience you will have.

Pictured was a brand new queen from noted fierce groomer stock. One of the other frames from that queen or another in nucs from the same purchase showed many double laid cells. She was just a keen beginner. Some cells were laid up where the cell walls were less than an eighth inch drawn. First thing in spring before white wax time in my cold climate, they will chew up the new foundation. Someone suggested they may be using it to cap brood being laid in older comb. Sounds reasonable.


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

Thanks for the bamboo sources LJ ... I'll get some of the longer ones when I run out of the huge bundle I bought at the same time I purchased 1000 'tongue depressors' for starter strips


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>"The fact that ferrules are necessary in order to prevent the wire from cutting into the wooden frame tells me that that system is flawed."

That is like saying "because you have to mount your rubber tires on steel or aluminum wheels shows the system is flawed". 

>I don't think my bees like wire at all.
20181123_163454.jpg

I have had a few colonies do the same. It is generally due to a poor flow. They get bored and chew the foundation. Or sometimes it even looks like here was some kind of current in the cross wires that bothered them. 

I have wired and embedded thousands of frames over the decades and admit it is a slow pain. My employee wires twice as fast as I do so now he gets the job. In the last few years I acquired a lot of Ritecell from quitters and have learned how to get combs from it. It has to be used in a strong flow or on FED swarms and packages that have a pressing need for drawn comb or they will die out. 

Adding a coating of wax is also very advantageous in drawing out plastic. Or buying double waxed. I bought Acorn double wax this year because I had acquired a few hundred frames with no wire holes. It was drawn out quite well on the flow and on swarms. 

Vertical and horizontal wax is great because the bees draw it out easily. Plastic is great because it is less work. Like in all walks of life there are often multiple choices that have to be made and not one solution for each endevour. I will continue to use both as I feel fit.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

odfrank said:


> >"The fact that ferrules are necessary in order to prevent the wire from cutting into the wooden frame tells me that that system is flawed."
> 
> That is like saying "because you have to mount your rubber tires on steel or aluminum wheels shows the system is flawed".


And so what third component was subsequently added to rubber tyres to prevent the damage they were causing to metal wheels ?
LJ


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

little_john said:


> And so what third component was subsequently added to rubber tyres to prevent the damage they were causing to metal wheels ?
> LJ


Ferruls to frame wires are like underwear to pants, socks to shoes, bras to blouses, wax paper liners to cereal boxes, wheels to tires, frames to glasses lenses....they are just parts of a system, not an indicator that the system is flawed.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

little_john said:


> And so what third component was subsequently added to rubber tyres to prevent the damage they were causing to metal wheels ?
> LJ


That would be air. A lot of which is being exchanged at present.:digging:


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Re ferrules, in my view they are totally unnessecary i have never used them. Unferruled, the wire digs into the wood, only enough to allow the end bar to straighten back up once the wire has stretched all it can. Ferruled means the end bars may have to stay permanently bent.

Oh I attended a bee course yesterday as I was asked to do the hive work, everybody on the course was assigned a hive to work and I had to help the people, who had never worked a hive before to do it. Good day out it went well they loved it!

Then the lady wiring frames called me over they were having some issues so I wired a few frames, haven't done that in a while, reminded me whan as a youngster I was the one who had to spend weeks standing at a bench in winter making, and wiring, thousands of them. The course participants were surprised how fast it could be done 

But hey, here is what I believe to be the 2 big fallacies in classical old style TF philosophy. The first, is the belief that natural broodnest cell size for our bees a century ago was 4.9 and then we upsized them. This has been debunked by an investigative reading of the literature of the day, which shows a different measurement method was used and if read properly, the described sizes were mostly 5.1 or 5.2, and sometimes 5.3. The second fallacy is a follow on from this misbelief, which goes along the lines of, since natural size was 4.9. that is the size needed for bees to defeat varroa, and that allowing bees to build natural comb of the size they want, (which usually is not 4.9), will allow them to defeat varroa. I say bees do not know that, because bees in the form we have, have never been exposed to varroa, and therefore have no instinctive knowledge of what cell size is needed to defeat them.

However, FORCING bees to live on 4.9 sized cells, MIGHT have an effect. But it is not something that comes naturally to the majority of our bees. Back in the day, used to see a lot of 1 year beekeepers saying they had varroa sorted because they had allowed their bees to build natural comb. Almost invariably they had never actually measured their comb, and would have got a rude surprise if they did.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Mostly gobbledygook; It is supposed to mystify the beginners into wide eyed adoration of the gurus! Once you see a few such utterances from them in that light, it casts doubt on much of the other material they put forth. The ones who believe it though, are thus conditioned to believe the unbelievable, and question no more.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I contacted a company called BambooMN regarding 3mm x 18" bamboo skewers. They do not carry them but are willing to import them. The question is how many? I would like to get feedback from anyone in the US that would be interested. Personally, 1000 is all I need at 2 skewers per frame. I am hoping to get at least 9 more people that would want 1000 or more also to show them we are serious. Once we break in so to speak, I am sure they will be available by the 100 pack like most of their other offerings.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Personally I think the idea of bamboo skewers is ridiculous, when less comb invasive wire is available.

However, if you insist, try this link, and import them yourself. 

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesal...d=SB_20181127165511&SearchText=bamboo+skewers


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Thanks for the link OT. I am willing to try many things and this is just one of them. The bees drew comb just fine on nothing but a wooden starter strip, but I know how fragile that can be, especially when you only have one or two in a hive full of foundation and didn't mark them. I have strung a bunch for next season with, gasp, 20# monofilament because I had a roll of it already. Like to see how they do with the bamboo. I figure the 3mm is far less invasive than the 4.5 stuff that looks like a small tree by comparison. I am willing to waste a few dollars to find out. I have a roll of stainless steel safety wire I use on my airplane so I giving that a go too. My biggest problem with framing wire so far is that it rusts.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

In my view, wooden starter strips are also a bad idea, they are wasteful of space and can also be a weak point. What I do is cut a strip of comb foundation just one or two cells wide and glue it into the top bar groove. The strip must be thin not more than 2 cells wide max, if there is more than that bees can hang on it before they have properly attached it and the weight of them pull it off. The bees will start comb perfectly on such a strip and it is joined to the top bar stronger than if a wooden starter strip was used.

I wish I had the pics of my foundationless combs being built, but they were lost when Photobucket started charging megabucks and I refused to pay. However, long as the combs and the hive is straight up and down, the bees will build the comb down from the starter strips and attach it to the wire perfectly, they actually aim at the wire and incorporate it into the exact middle of their foundation, the cells are built flawlessly and you would not even know there was a wire running through, based on cell structure.

Your stainless wire will solve the rust issue, I use stainless also. Just one thing to be aware of, the wire must be stretched tight, real tight. This tightness can only be achieved by making a jig to bend the frame end bars inwards a bit when you are tensioning and nailing the wire, then release the end bars once the wire is nailed.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

little_john said:


> Why on earth are hobbyists using beekeeping equipment designed for commercial use ?


Because what is practical and economical for the professional it is to the hobby beekeeper too.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

little_john said:


> They will - try 50-60 lb sea fishing line. Only mice will chew through that (ask me how I know this ...)
> LJ


 I use the cheap 50# fishing line from Walmart. I run 70 to 100 colonies, all foundationless, works good. I tie it off on a small nail, just make three turns around the nail, hold the line with one hand and drive the nail in with the other hand.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> I don't think my bees like wire at all.
> View attachment 44495
> 
> This started out as a perfectly good piece of wired foundation. All the existing cells are fully drawn. Now it is going to the melting pot.


I have a similar observation - my original large foundation-less frames with wire. 








Gradually replacing the wires by two horizontal support bars, like so:


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

By any chance were you fellows trying to draw foundation on a weak or diminishing nectar flow?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I can already tell you that's what they were doing. 

Rather than be in full 100% support of wire in all circumstances, it should be said that leaving wired foundation in a hive during a dearth can lead to it getting chewed. Around the edges, and around the wires.

But is there a better system? Not that I would use, no.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I honestly don't remember when I found the two frames. May have been after our flow ended in late June. Just thought it was weird. This spring I will have wired foundation, plastic Acorn foundation, and foundationless frames wired with ss wire, fishing line, and some with the bamboo skewers in the hives. I'll be able to see which works best, although the plastic is going to be my choice for supers. They were slow to draw out the plastic in the brood chambers this past year.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Johnny come lately................to this thread. I was wondering as I read 'what will the Oldtimer and Jim Lyons say?

I get a kick out of each participant thinking as beekeepers, in my experience, often do, that is my way is the right way, and the rest of y'all are mistaken. Kind of reminds me of certain religious groups.

I kept bees for several decades using wired frames and wax foundation. I bought some ferrules once and really didnt care for them. Wire cutting into the frames is not an issue if you don't pull too hard. Then again, if you pull too hard, with the crappy wire being sold these days, the wire will break before the crappy wood frame splits between pukas (Hawaiian word for holes). What kind of wood does MannLake use for their frames anyway? And I won't even mention their hive tools.

I quit being commercial for quite awhile, and when I got back into the bees I decided no more freight bills on foundation as freight charges here really up the equipment costs.

So now I am in the natural cell crowd. My experience is that natural works fine up to 7.125" frames; however, natural cell deeps just don't hold up................for me.

I also use a lot of excluders these days, which is something I never found necessary prior to going natural cell and experiecing frame after frame of drone and larger comb.

I imagine someone find something that I've said to nitpick about. That's fine. I'm not advocating....rather just relaying my experience.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK I'll nitpick 

You mentioned you are now natural comb, but did not mention if you use wire or not. Are you?

For my natural combs I use wire and use deep frames no issue at all. Except for extracting, for that, if using natural comb, got to get a few cycles of brood through to beef up the comb strength a bit.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

I'll bite. Natural cell...............no wire. I used wire and foundation for 30+ years..............no more. And I won't argue about natural cell with wiring.............I imagine it will work, as you say, once the frames are fully drawn and been through some drone cycles..

But no wire for me anymore. I do break some combs when extracting my 3/4 frames, but no problem, I just cut out what needs to be removed and recycle into the hives.

Part of what I have chosen to do is the fact that I have lost too many hives to the varroa--hive beetle combination. When that happens, with no wire I can cut them out, rinse, give a solar cleansing and reuse.

And I now have less than 50 hives. If I had hundreds, I probably would go a different route. The big operations (primarily queens) here seem to have gone the 'plastic' frame route, fyi.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

So for an unbiased opinion, how have you found natural cell against varroa as opposed to foundation?

And, how is your cell size measuring up, and of course how long have you been natural cell?

Just for interest, a few years back I did a bunch of natural cell hives, just for the fun of it. Worked out well, no issues. I wired the frames as per normal and put a very thin wax starter strip into the top bar groove and the bees built the combs fine. Being i guess, a control freak, I didn't want a mess of drone cells and worker cells in the same frame. So what I did was have the first frames built in hives that were all foundation, so naturally they built all drone comb in the frames. So I was able to get some real nice frames of pure drone comb. Then these combs were used to set up hives with 3 or 4 drone combs in them and the rest empty frames, the bees felt they had too much drone comb and built the other frames pure worker. I was able to remove these combs and have more worker combs built, till a point was reached I could swap out the drone combs and replace with worker combs, and have a hive totally natural comb, but hardly a drone cell in it. By going slowly, i was able to get a whole bunch of hives built like this, and the worker combs were so perfect they mostly looked better than the foundation built combs. Only way to tell was the cells were in wiggly lines, not the dead straight lines you get with foundation.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Ten years plus using natural cell. My starters are usually thin strips of wood in the foundation slot. My bees seem to be a pretty normal size...IOW not getting smaller. 5.2 mm? Are the bees more varroa resistant? It's hard to say. Deformed wing virus is now rare, didn't see PMS this year but certainly have in the past. We treat and yet get in trouble with mite bombs, that once they get going, are ****ed near impossible to stop. Then the slime beetles take over and it is gross. I did better with the varroa this summer, but had to do several Formic Pro treatments to stop them. Without treatment I would have no bees.
Yes, if the bare frames are placed in the brood nest, they make worker sized comb. My bees will raise way more drones through spring and summer than they really need; however, it doesn't seem to hurt honey production too much. Pulling the drone comb above an excluder reduces the number of drones and makes it so I'm not running into drone brood when harvesting.
I also harvest more frequently because natural frames are harder to move around. If a box is full and sealed, I take it. Beetles play a part in this as taking honey leaves a smaller area for the bees to control. I rarely see swarms as long as I keep putting new frames (no combs) in the second box. Of course my conditons are subtropical......longer honey flow with less day length variation than temperate climates.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very interesting Gino.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Got an opportunity to picture another wired natural comb.
This one shows even stronger avoidance of the wires.
Notice that they are able to avoid the vertical wires; with horizontal wires it will be harder.
Also notice how the avoidance is more pronounced in the front portion of the frame (brood area; closer to the entrance).
The back side of the frame (honey area) has fewer gaps. 
Maybe the bees really have some degree of metal-phobia (or is it iron-phobia? iron wire proximity was documented to be bad for brood).


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> what I did was have the first frames built in hives that were all foundation, so naturally they built all drone comb in the frames. So I was able to get some real nice frames of pure drone comb. Then these combs were used to set up hives with 3 or 4 drone combs in them and the rest empty frames, the bees felt they had too much drone comb and built the other frames pure worker. I was able to remove these combs and have more worker combs built, till a point was reached I could swap out the drone combs and replace with worker combs, and have a hive totally natural comb, but hardly a drone cell in it.


Now THAT is a very neat, logical technique.  
LJ


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## swplabuschagne (5 mo ago)

blainenay said:


> I use the same 10-pound-test monofilament line I use for trout fishing. I've never had the bees chew through it. That said, I prefer wire over monofilament and plastic foundation over wire. I have some of each in my operation, but plastic foundation is the only thing I know that won't break up in the extractor. (BTW, anyone here remember the aluminum foundation that hit the market back in the '60s?)


can you use gavanised steel wire? 1 mm ?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes

But commercially available frame wire would be easier


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think it will be found that the so called stainless frame wire is tin plated steel, not "stainless steel". I have priced genuine stainless steel and monel line of similar diameter and it is many times more expensive than the line sold in beekeeping outlets. Metallic tin is considered food safe but galvanized is not. Much of galvanizing zinc used to be contaminated with lead.


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