# Help needed



## dreamlandart (Aug 1, 2011)

I started my first TBH in May from a package of bees. I started feeding the bees and they happily started building comb right away. My hive has been 3/4 filled with brood comb. The number of bees has increased dramatically and with the heat of the last few weeks the bees are bearding heavily. I went to inspect the hive a few weeks ago and to my surprise found that the bees are drawing out additional comb and have now filled all but one top bar. Still only one bar of uncapped honey comb. All the other bars are brood comb. So far so good. The only beekeepers I have around have Langstroth hives and are advising two things.

1. That I need to be feeding the bees because there is no nectarflow in our region right now
2. That they would put a super on which clearly I cannot do

So, I would really like to get my bees to be self sufficient since I am more interested in the organic beekeeping aspect and not so much in getting huge amounts of honey. Obviously I do not want to loose my bees but I would prefer to not have to feed them.

When I came across the forum I read in several posts that if there are queen cells in the hive that a split should be attempted before the bees swarm. So off I went into my hive to search for a queen cell. I do not smoke the bees when I inspect my hive and they are very calm....generally. This time however they were very upset and I ended up with plenty of stingers on my gloves. The hive was brimming full since most of the brood had hatched. Still only one comb with uncapped honey and a cell that might be a queen cell but I am not 100% sure. It was a long attachment at the side of the new comb.

Can someone please tell me:

1. Is it absolutely necessary to feed the bees to insure survival or will the bees in numbers be able to create enough stores for the winter? I live in an urban area but have a very diverse garden with bee forage( borage, echinaecia, mints, beebalm, dalias and also leave the dandelions to grow)
2. Should I attempt to split the hive or is the empty top bar in addition to empty brood comb enough to accumulate honey stores for the winter and keep them from swarming:scratch:?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

b


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Hi there,

What size is the top bar hive you are working with? How long, how wide and how tall and how many bars are in it?

That will help us get a better picture of what you're looking at.

Adam


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## dreamlandart (Aug 1, 2011)

Hi,

My hive is 2.5 ft long, 15 inches deep and the bars are 19 inches long. 

Thanks for any help!

b


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

One thing is you are not near long enough for a top bar and good working bees. Any way you can extend it to about 4 foot? I think I would start there and give them some room rather then splitting.


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## angryhippie (Mar 11, 2010)

I have a hive that is about that big and it sucessfully overwinted last year on less stores than that, but it swarmed this spring when it built up.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Truthfully, that hive is way too small. Are you able to work with wood at all? If so, I'd say to make a move to expand the space by building one 4 feet long. At 15 inches deep and 19 long, you've got big combs going - but you're still undersized. Otherwise, you may have to keep a close eye out for queen cells and make a split. But do you have a hive ready for that? 

Either way, you need more room.

As for feeding, that really depends on your environment and their stores. It would be a delicate operation, because you don't want them storing more/faster without the room. 

Others here might know better on whether you should feed or not.


Adam


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

To clarify, the hive is not too small for bees. It's perfect for bees.

But if you want to keep swarming to a minimum and have a honey harvest - it's too small.


Adam


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

"...I need to be feeding the bees because there is no nectarflow in our region right now..."

Are the beekeepers who are giving you this advice actually located in the urban area where your hives are? If so, they might well be right. If their hives are in the nearby country, however, their advice might be a bit off base for your urban hives. Your bees might have a wider variety of pollen and nectar sources than their bees do.

I think I'd ask the bees for confirmation. If your bees are flying strongly, building comb, and bringing in a steady supply of nectar, that might be a good indication that your local nectar flow is still doing okay for now. If there is little or no new nectar being stored away, then the beekeepers' advice is most likely correct for your location too.

You are kind of into a Catch 22 situation, as Adam pointed out. The bees really need more room. In this situation, lang beekeepers would add a super ... TBH beekeepers have to harvest.

You may want to think about harvesting your one honey bar, capped or not. Either crush and strain the harvested comb or store the whole comb intact on its bar. I'm not sure which would work best in your situation -- maybe the other TBH beekeepers reading this post can offer more insight into that. If you don't have a spare bar, that might be the deciding factor.

If the honey is unripe, I would keep it in the freezer because unripe honey can ferment or mold if stored at room temp. Give the honey (or honey comb) back to the bees starting in late summer or early fall, when your local dearth starts and the bees start preparing for winter.

Just some suggestions from a first year TBH beekeeper -- hope they help.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I would not harvest the only frame of honey in a hive at this time of year... I'd wait until mid-September and then feed them all they'd take until most of the combs were full, then stop by mid-October and let them cure it... should get you through the winter down where you are.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Cam -- The OP doesn't have a lang hive. I am wondering if you were taking that into account, since you refer to a frame of honey and filling combs. 

OP has only one empty top bar in the TBH at this point, so there isn't much more room for honey to be stored. We haven't heard back from the OP if the bees are still bringing in nectar or if there is a dearth, so that point is a bit up in the air.

What strategy might you recommend for a TBH beekeeper in this situation -- would your same advice still apply?


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## dreamlandart (Aug 1, 2011)

Oh this is great!

So immediately this morning when I discovered through the reply that my hive is probably too short I spoke to the person I ordered it from to see if I can order an additional much longer hive and spare bars. Even though I am fairly good with my woodworking skills I have very little time to devote to anything these days. Anyone on this forum sell TBHs??
The bees are very active and have build up the one filled uncapped comb within the last week. All the other honey is stored on the top part of the brood hive. The advice is coming from beekeepers that are out in the country.

So ideally the hive should be what dimensions?

Thank you so much for all the feedback!

B


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

"What strategy might you recommend for a TBH beekeeper in this situation -- would your same advice still apply? "

I ran some TBH's and long hives last year... didn't like them and I don't use them any more. However, my advice was based on my experience with them... I mis-spoke when I used the term frame. But those brood combs need to be pretty much full of honey or sugar before winter for the hive to survive. Depending on the fall flow there, feeding should start as soon as it's over, if it's a decent flow, before if not. Bees don't winter well on air. I also think the size of the hive is fine for VA. There just will be a need next spring to take a split off it or let it swarm, which it will without intervention. But the important thing is to get it through the winter, then worry about next year in February/March.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

If you use the plans from this web site it only takes about an hour and 30 bucks to build a hive minus the time to cut the bars. I use a 2x6 for the top bars it works out good for the honey bars and shave a little off for the brood bars also does not take very long to do on a table saw. Good Luck


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## mjtracy (Jun 17, 2011)

My TBHs are all 40" long, and that seems to work very well for a good sized colony, with plenty of room for brood and honey. 24" does seem awlfully short (unless you want to do a lot of management).


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## dreamlandart (Aug 1, 2011)

thank you for all the replies. I have ordered a larger hive to just transfer my existing bars over and give them additional room. Then I can use the smaller hive to try and catch a swarm.  hopefully the hive get's here before the bees decide it is too crowded. I moved the one empty bar I had left up between the brood and the uncapped honey. Most of the brood had hatched and I am wondering how much more the queen is going to lay given the fact that they really do not have any honey stores other than the one bar. Is that unusual that they do not have any stores the beginning of August? Or will they build up honey stores now since there are so many workers? They still seem to be really busy flying out plenty.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Bees can't make honey if there's no nectar, regardless of the number of foragers. The proof of the pudding will be to see how fast that empty bar of yours gets filled up, I'd say. My bees are also flying strongly and bringing in nectar, but my environment here in rural Iowa is probably quite different than yours. I sure hope the larger hive will be helpful to you and your bees!


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## dreamlandart (Aug 1, 2011)

So how quickly should they fill that bar? How do I determine if they are still finding enough nectar? I was really surprised when they started drawing out the additional comb a few weeks back. I expected they would fill the exisiting comb with honey but it was all filled with brood. So only the brand new comb had honey in it. So for sure up until now they were still finding nectar otherwise they would have not been able to fill that comb right?


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

How quick? I don't personally have a good answer to that -- it's my first year too. 

As wide and deep as your TBH is, the bees are also probably storing quite a bit of honey and pollen on the brood bars in your hive. The rate at which they make and fill new comb might not be a good indicator of nectar flows. The bees may be putting nectar in the brood comb as the new brood hatches; that would slow the rate at which new comb is made and filled. Dunno -- just thinking out loud here.

Perhaps others can contribute more factual information. I really am a bit out of my element -- just not enough experience to give you any real perspective on these questions.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

dreamlandart,

I don't know that there's a proper answer to "how quickly should they fill that bar." That all depends, as others have stated, on the nectar flow, the population of the colony, and the available combs for nectar storage. Generally if there aren't enough bees to fill up the empty space, they don't build many if any new combs. And if there aren't resources to fuel the building, they also won't build. As DeeAnna stated, as brood production slows they'll often start filling up old brood combs (especially drone combs!) with nectar, thus reducing the need for brand new combs.

Here in Portland, Oregon, most of my top bar hives have shut down new comb production, and we likely won't see much more through the rest of the year. Our blackberry (the major nectar flow here) flow is over. 

Cheers,
Matt


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

I checked both of my hives today, so I can give a report on what these colonies have been doing. That might give you a sense of how fast combs can be built and filled if the conditions are good.

In 10 days, one hive has drawn two bars of new comb. The comb is maybe 80 or 90% complete. Maybe 2/3rds of this new comb is filled with honey. In the same time, the other hive built out about 1 1/2 bars worth of comb and has filled most of that. These newest combs in both hives are very fat especially near the top. 

What's interesting to me is the hive that is now making and filling new comb the fastest was markedly slower to build up earlier this summer. I harvested some of these bars from both hives today. One reason is that I needed to give the bees some room to work -- if these bars become full, there is no place for the bees to store honey. The other reason is that the bees are being "creative" with the last 2 or 3 combs -- they are not building them straight across the bars. I harvested the more creative parts of the combs, leaving the straightest bits to encourage them to build straight comb.

They are foraging on the white clover in my hay field and on soybeans in the neighbor's field, both of which are in full bloom right now. I expect the nectar flow to slow a lot when the soybeans are done blooming. I noticed the goldenrod is starting to color, however. That should give another small nectar flow during the last half of August.

As you can tell from Matt's post compared with mine, the nectar flows, comb building, and honey production can vary a lot depending on the location, weather, the particular colony of bees, and the time of year. I am curious to see what my bees do as the summer slips into fall. I have about a gallon of honey stored to feed back to them if they need it.


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## dreamlandart (Aug 1, 2011)

Thank you again for all the feedback. Last time I checked the hive, most of the brood had hatched and the brood comb was largely empty with very little honey in it as well. I had the one comb full of honey that was uncapped three bars that they were building on and they were still empty. I did find the queen pretty far back in the hive close to the new comb. So I guess once I go back in to check I will get an idea of what they are going to do. If they are able to fill some comb with hoeny or not and if the queen is continuing to lay at the rate she has been. So if there are not significant honey stores at my next check in should I then start feeding them? Or can I give it some more time to see if through the fall they can build up honey stores?
Thank you!!


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## dreamlandart (Aug 1, 2011)

Update: checked the hive today through the observation window. The three combs they had started on are completely drawn out and almost completely filled with honey! Half of the comb is capped. The empty bar continues empty and I am waiting for my larger hive to arrive. Any recommendations for when I move the bars over to the new hive? Anything I need to think about?

Thank you,

B


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

I would say just keep the bars in the same order and position


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

If you can, put the new hive in the same spot as the old hive ... or locate the new one as close to the old one as you can. 

Choose a good day -- not overly hot, not overly cool -- when most of the foragers are busy away from the hive. Work gently, smoothly and efficiently, remembering that any bar you move may have the queen on it.

As Rtoney said, put the bars into the new hive in the same order and orientation as they were in the old, unless you have a specific reason to make a change. 

When you are done, move the old hive completely away from the new hive. I would probably put the old hive in a closed shed or garage so the bees can't get to it or at the very least leave the bars and lid off to make the hive look unappealing to determined foragers. You want to discourage the foragers from returning to the old hive and encourage them to orient to the new hive.


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## dreamlandart (Aug 1, 2011)

Thanks! The not too hot part will be a challenge since it has been nothing but hot....perhaps next week there will be some relief. I will update once I have made the move.


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## Genevabees (Jun 5, 2011)

I am a newbee; how would you know if they are still bringing in nectar and what is dearth?


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## dreamlandart (Aug 1, 2011)

I am probably newer than you are but it appears that the only way to know if your bees are still bringing in nectar is by checking if they are producing honey? Dearth is the shortage of nectar which apparently is not only dependent on the state you live in but also specifically what area.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

"...what is a nectar flow and what is dearth..."

See post #8 in this thread.


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