# my version of a Cleo Hogan Trap opinions please.



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I have a trap out to do in a guys wall and I would like to try to get the queen, I have been researching the Cleo Hogan trap but didn't want to have to build a custom female piece on every trap out depending on angle of tree, wall, etc So instead of a wooden box I used 2 in PVC with a floor flange. On a flat wall it will be mounted as seen, if it's in a tree that is leaning, I can put a very small flexible piece of hose that will allow the connection between the box and the flange which should allow it to flex several degrees. For the cone portion of it, I decided to go right into the cap and it's hard to tell but it point up at over a 45 deg angle. Hopefully I can get the queen in the box and just slip the cap over the pipe and trapout the rest of the bees. I will be installing it on a guys wall this weekend, I will keep you posted of my progress. 

What do you think so far?


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I have thought of doing the same basic ideas. The other thought I have is to use two pipe of different sizes and side one into the other. Giving you some flex Ability. 
David


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

My-smokepole said:


> The other thought I have is to use two pipe of different sizes and side one into the other. Giving you some flex Ability.
> David


This would be my choice as well. It would be much easier to build. 

I would also consider having a PVC pipe as the front entrance to the box to resemble the opening that they would have recently learned to use...


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Absolutely that will work. In all my presentations I say that you can use PVC pipe, rubber hose, any way to mate the two transitions together, 

Just try to get the box as close to the feral brood nest as possible, so the queen has less distance to travel, so she will use the trap as a brood chamber.

I build mine out of wood solely because I have the scrap wood. There is nothing majic about wood tunnels.

cchoganjr


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

And for those of us who are not carpenters, there is Walter Kelly Swarm Harvester designed by Cleo C.Hogan. I bought mine for a tree removal and with Cleo's instructions and tutoring, successfully removed bees from the tree and got 2 colonies from it. A few months later I removed a colony from a cinder block wall, another colony. It works great for me! That and bait boxes are my preferred methods of getting bees as I don't have to worry about bees absconding, and very little labor on my part. Harvester paid for itself.

https://kelleybees.com/Products/#ca...733373436353732&sort=3334&page=3330&category=


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I saw those harvesters, I run all med and am starting a TBH so I just grabed a Med box I built, I know it will fill up faster on a trap out, but I can just as easily just super the trap or remove more frequently I'm not the best woodworker so that is why I went with the pvc design all you need is a box and a 2 in hole saw and a few fittings.


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

Good idea. It looks like vacuum cleaner hose would work or clothes dryer hose.

Say, what do you do about the comb, brood and honey after you trap out the bees?


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## Sir_Gregory (Apr 19, 2013)

I read that people let a strong hive rob it out by placing honey in the outside entrence to get them started. Then you can patch all holes and leave the comb.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Yip once you get them all out brood and all after they've hatched and they call the new hive home all you have to do is disconnect and let them rob out their old home


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## BackYardPhenomena (Jul 11, 2012)

It'll work. As long as you have brood and comb in the box already, the workers will be like "hey we got all this room over here, come check it out." She'll be there and the rest of the bees will follow. Might be a good idea to put some kind of queen excluder on the entrance part of the pipe, she might work her way back once the brood in the wall has hatched. Of course wait until you have spotted her in the trap. Good Luck, Awesome idea.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

BackYardPhenomena said:


> It'll work. As long as you have brood and comb in the box already, the workers will be like "hey we got all this room over here, come check it out." She'll be there and the rest of the bees will follow. Might be a good idea to put some kind of queen excluder on the entrance part of the pipe, she might work her way back once the brood in the wall has hatched. Of course wait until you have spotted her in the trap. Good Luck, Awesome idea.


My understanding is that once you spot her in the trap OR start seeing new eggs that is when you put the cap on that has the funnell in it


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## Sir_Gregory (Apr 19, 2013)

Another thought... why not just make the cone a bee escape... so they cant go back in? If you did that the queen would go out and be traped out.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Sir_Gregory said:


> Another thought... why not just make the cone a bee escape... so they cant go back in? If you did that the queen would go out and be traped out.


.......um its got one look again at the cap at the end of the tunnell


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## Sir_Gregory (Apr 19, 2013)

Oh my bad.


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

Sir_Gregory said:


> Another thought... why not just make the cone a bee escape... so they cant go back in? If you did that the queen would go out and be traped out.


According to Mr Hogan, the queen could not fit the small end of the cone so she would be Traped In.


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## Sour Kraut (Jun 17, 2012)

"didn't want to have to build a custom female piece on every trap out depending on angle of tree, wall, etc"

If you carry a few 45's and 22-1/2's 'street' elbows (the kind that is female on one side and male on the other, you can easily make up any angle you want or need.

and why not go with a 4" toilet flange, and reduce it to 2 inches ? That would cover larger openings, like a split in a tree, without having to seal up so much

just sayin.............


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

I have used the toilet flange,, it works.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Gary L. Glaenzer said:


> "didn't want to have to build a custom female piece on every trap out depending on angle of tree, wall, etc"
> 
> If you carry a few 45's and 22-1/2's 'street' elbows (the kind that is female on one side and male on the other, you can easily make up any angle you want or need.
> 
> ...


That's exactly why I used the pvc you can also make any angle you need with a heat gun I used the floor flange because that is what I had


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## marant (Jan 18, 2014)

I had the same thought before I found this thread, but think I will use a couple of pieces of 4" pvc. With a 4" hole the first piece of pvc can slide in or out as needed. The second piece of pvc will have a funnel glued to it for an excluder and can be easily swapped out for the first piece when needed, without disturbing the mating to the hive. I thought I would use 4" so I could easily attach a short piece of dryer hose (opaque), which should make marrying the trap to the hive entrance a lot easier. I can put a flange or other type of end on the mating end of the hose depending upon whether or not the entrance is flat.

What do you all think?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

In what percent of Hogan trapouts does the queen come out into the trapout box?


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

The idea is not to catch the queen correct? Do you normally requeen or let the hive requeen itself to keep the new genetics?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank...I have about quit trapping,( only have two set for this Spring) ( and I am retiring from selling bees, will likely just keep a dozen or so hives for private honey stock and give aways) but, when I actively trapped bees here are my findings.

The queen will come into the trap most of the time, to either find the queen that layed the eggs in the trap, or, to use the trap as another chamber to lay eggs. If you are wanting the queen it will require checking the trap every few hours after introduction of the unsealed brood. To answer your question....

From trees and tanks etc, where the trap transition can be fitted very near the feral brood nest, during a good honey flow with expanding population and queen looking for places to lay eggs, success rate about 80 to 85 percent.

In walls, buildings etc, more difficult to determine where the brood nest is, and often the trap cannot be placed close enough for the queen to come out to lay or investigate where the brood,(the frame you give them) came from. In these cases, the success rate falls to 35 to 45 percent.

Without a good honey flow, success rate about 35 to 55 percent. The queen may come to investigate the eggs but, if she doesn't find a queen, or need the room to lay, she may just return to her source and you may miss her.

I rarely trapped to get the queen. I prefer to take multiple managed starts from the colony and let the trapped bees either make their own queen, or, introduce a mated queen after removing frames from the trap and relocating the new colony. I used the same feral sources for several starts each year. Now days, gasoline is so expensive, and trapping requiring multiple trips to the trap site, that trapping is not as attractive as it once was, unless the trap site is close and handy for you to work.

Trapping is a lot of fun, and, you learn a lot from it. Sometimes it is necessary when someone wants the bees gone for whatever reason. In that case, try to get the queen, save all the bees, and move from that location.

cchoganjr


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

Okay that makes sense and I like the idea if letting the colony requeen itself do you keep the genes....


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Calbears94 said:


> I like the idea if letting the colony requeen itself do you keep the genes....


 several variables here. If the trap bees make a queen from the unsealed brood you gave them, then no,. The new queen will be from the queen that layed the eggs that you gave them.

If the feral queen comes out and lays eggs in the trap, and if the bees build queen cells around those eggs, then yes, the genes would be from the feral queen.

cchoganjr


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## Calbears94 (Jan 24, 2014)

Very good point so in order to keep the new genes you need the queen to lay eggs or capture her...I appreciate all the advice I think I am going to give it a shot...I will send pics once I get set up and see how it goes...


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I was just looking up some pipe dimensions here.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pvc-cpvc-pipes-dimensions-d_795.html 

Sch 40 2.5 inch pipe has an OD of 2.875 while the three inch has an ID of 3.068 which is a difference of .193 This will make a slip fit with a gap small enough bees cannot get through it at right around 3/16th of an inch. This combo could be used to make an adjustable slip connection between the flange at the hive entrance and the trap out box.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

3/16" = 0.1875"

The difference in your pipe diameters is 0.193"

Bees can squeeze through 1/6" = 1.666"

3/16" will not stop them. Maybe if you put a couple of wraps of duct tape on the smaller one...


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

1/6 = 0.166 Just in case anyone tries to use these numbers for anything.
I ran out of time yesterday while posting this. Tape will work. But also keep in mind the gap is half of the difference. Assuming the pipes are positioned evenly. So a difference of 0.193 when set up correctly would leave a gap of 0.0965. #8 hardware cloth is 0.125. but this requires meticulous placemen of the two pipes which is not likely to happen.

Better yet is the sch. 80 pipe. 2.5 inch has an OD of 2.875 while the 3 inch has in ID of 2.9 for a difference of 0.025. This creates a gap of 0.0125. 

I have done a lot of work designing things that will slip inside other things. and this is pushing the limit to what I consider a good slip fit. It would require fairly accurate placement of the pipe or they will simply bind. I still consider it the best combination for this application. Schedule 80 pipe may be a little harder to source.

I have not seen a trap out yet that was placed nice a neat against a flat surface. so their is still the issue of how to box in or enclose the entrance to the hive to then produce a nice flat surface to mount a toilet flange on. I have attempted locations such as the soffit of a roof where the soffit kept the same pitch as the roof. creating basically a triangle shaped space. I have found them int eh corner where a brick chimney met the wall of the house. Also the top of a pillar at the corner so you have both an outside and two inside corners to deal with all at the same time. I have also found them at the trim of a window which is the closest to a flat surface I have seen. They have had their entrance in the valley of a roof. Never have I found the surface at the entrance of a hive to be the same twice. I woudl be interested in hearing ideas on how to transition from this endless geometry to a flat surface where the flange can be mounted.


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## marant (Jan 18, 2014)

"I woudl be interested in hearing ideas on how to transition from this endless geometry to a flat surface where the flange can be mounted."

This is why I wonder if it would be possible to use a dryer hose or some other flexible hose to connect the two parts of the trap? Lots of duct tape on the part attached to the hive, then just slip the other part on with the hose attached to the trap.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>But also keep in mind the gap is half of the difference. Assuming the pipes are positioned evenly. 

I guess I would doubt they would stay evenly spaced. More likely they would shift to one side, but then they would probably also shift to somewhat of an angle which might mitigate it anyway.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Daniel Y said:


> I would be interested in hearing ideas on how to transition from this endless geometry to a flat sur.













You can shim it any number of ways, then wrap the transition around a tree/tank etc or wrap plastic using duct tape. Then fit the trap over the transition. 3 mil black plastic works great for this. Not sure if I have photo on this computer, if not, when I return to Kentucky (three weeks, currently in Florida) I will send photo that shows shimming the transition and wrapping with black plastic.

Sorry my photo wound up in Daniel's quote. (maybe I have moved it out of the quote) I am not the greatest computer driver.

In my version of the trap I have the two transitions with a very, very, loose fitting which allows for wiggle room to level the trap to the other transition, and to facilitate removing the trap if I remove the trap rather than move frames. If the trap is very full, sometimes it is better to just move the trap and slide a new trap on the transition. If you only have 3 to 5 pounds of bees in the trap, sometimes it is easifer to just move frames. In taking starts I normally move frames. I seal the two transitions in the back with one wrap of duct tape.

If you have a tree or tank you want to trap, now is the time to put the transition on the tree, seal off all entrances except the transition, let the bees go and come through it for a while, and when the colony has built up nicely, (later in the Spring), add the trap.

cchoganjr


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## marant (Jan 18, 2014)

I have a Hogan trap on a tree using a small sink plunger. I found it at Lowes for about $3. It is about 12" long with a center accordion section which moves and compresses when using it on a clogged sink. The large end is about 4" in diameter with a rubber flange. I cut the small handle off, leaving an opening of about 1.5".

I just nailed it to tree through the rubber flange, which conformed somewhat to the shape of the tree. The small end fits nicely through a hole into my 8 frame medium, and, due to the accordion section, flexes enough to make placing the medium quite simple. The taper on the accordion section makes mating with the box easy. The biggest problem is sealing all the other entrances in the tree, which is a problem no matter how you attach the trap to the tree. I finally solved the sealing problem by taking a batt of insulation large enough to cover the entire hole in the tree, cutting a small hole in it and placing it over the plunger. Taped the outside edge of the insulation to the tree, then covered the entire thing with a sheet of black plastic, also with a center hole for the plunger end. It was the only way I could keep the bees from creeping out through the fissures in the bark, since the insulation was pressed into the fissures by the tape.


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