# Not to be a negative Nelly, but...



## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

I see many threads here about "I have (Some small number of hive) this is my (Some small number of experience) and I want to make this my living in (Some small timeframe)" type of threads.

Now don't get me wrong I'm a first year keeper myself, I'm excited about the process and would LOVE to grow to make it my living or even make some extra cash.

Also don't get me wrong as I think it's entirely possible.

However I've also been running my own business for nearly 17 years in a completely un related field and if there's anything I've learned there's no such thing as "Easy" or "Quick" in 99% of real business and don't kid yourself if you're going to be making a living off it, that means you're going to have to run it like a business.

I think it's great that people are willing to give advice, head people in the right direction but I'm also wondering if maybe some of these threads might need some input from those that actually ARE doing it for a living.

I know I'm not making a killing in my current business and in most cases I'd be making more money working for someone else. I do it solely for reasons like potential and the feeling of self reliance, I make my own fate.

I just can't imagine that running a bee business is any different. You don't go from learning on a couple hives to "Now it's a business" in a couple years. I spent nearly a half decade working in my field before I started my business and 17 years later I'm still learning. 

Again I'm a new keeper and the things I have to learn about efficiently managing a few hives is staggering and that's not to even scratch the surface on the business aspect of it which is an entirely different animal entirely. Marketing, regulations, taxes, employees, industrial sized equipment, building codes etc etc for someone who has no experience in those areas can be a major pitfall. 

In short, by all means shoot for the stars, but unless you do it with realistic expectations it'll end up as so many businesses do, out of business before you hit your first year anniversary.

Personally I would love to hear from those that do this for a living on the negative side of the business. It's got to be ruthlessly competitive. 

~Matt


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MJuric said:


> Now don't get me wrong I'm a first year keeper myself,
> 
> Again I'm a new keeper
> 
> ~Matt


A new "keeper", eh? Whatcha "keeping"? I have never known, until recently that anyone who was a Beekeeper ever refered to them selves as a "keeper".

A Keeper of the Watch may be refered to as "The Keeper", w/in Watch Keeping and Castle Dwelling Circles, but, only relative newbees on bee forums refer to themselves as "keepers".

Just something I wanted to get said. Welcome to Beekeeping.

If one wishes to make beekeeping their vocation and sole source of income, one must be willing to put in long hours in inclement weather for many years before returns seem to be more on the positive side of the ledger. 

If one has a high standard of living, requiring many material possesions of the best quality, don't quit your day job and make sure your spouse has a well paying job so you can support your bee habit.

If you are, or wish to be, married, you need to be married to someoine who will be willing to work w/ you and/or manitainb everything else that you may not have time for because you are away somewhere working your bees.

The nicest couples run opertations are some of the most successful operations I have seen. Wives and husbands working the bees side by side.

In some ways, a commercial beekeeping operation is like having a spouse in Military service. Both are enlisted, even if only one has a uniform and rank.

A good head for business, communication, being able to handle personell and a strong work ethic are important traits. Almost anyone who desires can learn the bee business. It's all the other stuff you bring to the table which will make you successful.

Is that the sort of stuff you wanted to hear? There are many more qualified individuals than I on beesource who, if not busy working their bees, could answer your questions and give us a picture from their vantage point.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> A new "keeper", eh? Whatcha "keeping"?


I'm "Keeping the Faaaith"...said in my best Billy Joel voice 



sqkcrk said:


> Is that the sort of stuff you wanted to hear?


Exactly. I think the biggest hit I took when I started my business was "All the other stuff". Sure I had a pretty decent handle on how to perform my trade...but then Workers comp, taxes, insurance, sales, marketing, health insurance, rental space ad naseum came along and ruined my dreams 

To me being a new keeper and having only limited knowledge of the trade itself and then wanting to jump into business is a tall order at best. 

Spend 4-5 years learning the trade first, gain experience, knowledge, make mistakes, lose hives, lose queens, have a few problems and fix them. THEN decide how to get into business.

~Matt


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

I heard it said well by a lifetime beekeeper - to make a small fortune in bees, start with a large fortune!


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## justinh83 (Aug 2, 2010)

Call yourself what you want. Of course with 10,000 posts, what is left to say, right sqkcrk?

Learn your trade. Know it. Live it. You will learn all the bad parts in time. Not everyone has the same experiences. You don't want to be like some beekeepers that I know that talk more than listen. From one new keeper to another, it is hard work. Not all people grow their businesses the same though. It all depends on how far you want to take it.

Justin

Keeper of Bees


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Mark I think you put it well :thumbsup:

I don`t have 10K post yet but I have watched several people come and go and I think the biggest cause of failure in "beekeeping" is folks think they will make a lot of money fast and they don`t know or have any idea how much work it is.

A couple years ago we had a guy come in the chat room that had caught a swarm and 2 days later he wanted to become commercial beekeeper and he could not make his car payment them :doh:

Mark said is best when he said *don`t quit your day job* I have been known to say that to the dreamers, but I am just playiing if I had to go back to work to make a living I would go back to construction cause beekeeping is tooooo much work:lookout:


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Anyone thinking about turning a hobby into a vocation might want to start tracking their time and expenses, and income. Then just do a little math to see if there are enough hours in the year to keep a steady supply of beans on the table. Then, do you want to do that activity that many hours?

'Course, till you turn a profit you probably don't want to know any of that.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

I love bee's and (for Mark) beekeeping so much that I would never make it my job!! I tend, over time, to dislike what I do for a living. For instance I have been a professional diesel mechanic for over 25 years.....and I pay someone to change the oil in my personal truck. It wasn't always that way, I used to fix everything myself. So I will let others keep bee's for a living I am going to keep it as a hobby.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

honeyman46408;676895
I don`t have 10K post yet but I have watched several people come and go and I think the biggest cause of failure in "beekeeping" is folks think they will make a lot of money fast and they don`t know or have any idea how much work it is.[/QUOTE said:


> That's pretty much my point. Having started many hobbies over my life you really never know what you've gotten yourself into until it's too late
> 
> You start off thinking, "hey this is easy enough" then hours later and untold dollars you're looking at your 700$ bookshelves that are beautifully done that took you 8 weeks to complete...but could have probably bought something similar for half that price.
> 
> ...


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

"He does a good business who is of slow and steady growth. It requires a good many years to get things handy in an apiary, not only to aquire a quanity of surplus combs in proper shape, besides a good many little things belonging to an apiary, but to also aquire the knowledge of making the proper use of the stock on hand." Those words were read before the Missouri Beekeepers Association January 6, 1877 by Charles Muth. They are as good advice now as they were then.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

Yes I'm worried about that "Surplus comb in proper shape" myself. I've read a couple things, including splits and avoiding swarms, about adding empty comb...which of course first year keep I have none 

Would like to have a little more "Extra" equipment laying around as well. It all takes time. 

~Matt


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## Growing Boy (Jan 28, 2009)

Good thread. I spent my life doing what I HAD to do to make money. I spent many years, doing what I loved, owning a nursery and seed business. After I sold it it took me 5 years to even think about growing a garden again. Keeping bees is just a part of our retirement plan, as is furniture building, growing rare plants and even rarer roses and growing the majority of our food. All things that bring in household income but if we depended on these things as a sole way of making a living I'm sure we would tire of them quickly. (Besides my wife gives away more honey than we sell.)
Making a living is what we have to do. Everything else is what we want to do. Somewhat pessimistic I know but it's just the way I see it.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

Trying to figure out that transition from doing what I HAVE to do to make money to making enough money to be able to survive and doing what I love. Luckily I enjoy what I'm doing what I HAVE to do, just wish I didn't HAVE to do it 40+ hours a week 

~Matt


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## Growing Boy (Jan 28, 2009)

The way I look at it I'm investing in commodity futures.
They just happen to be all MY commodities.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Whoa, whoa...don't be going and discouraging people from jumping from one hive to commercial...I have bought 90% of my equipment (most of it less than two years old) from people that went out, spent a lot of money on equipment to try and make a living on beekeeping. I have seen more than a few jump into the game without knowing what it is all about. I think anyone willing to do hard work can make a go at it just like any other ag business...but it is ag so just be prepared for things not to go perfect even if you are doing all the right things. Also, I would recommend to anyone, ANYONE thinking of making it your business to go for just one week and work with a commercial beek...just so you know what you are getting into. If you can swing a year at it you have a really good chance of making it on your own. Lastly, start small and build up each year. That way your costs are not going to drown you. Beekeeping costs are mainly up front. Think of two lines on a chart. Expenses and income. Your expenses are going to be at the top of the chart and your income is going to be zero. As you build up, get markets for your product and increase your production those lines will cross (maybe) and then you can start to see the fruits of your labor...but it will be years so plan on it. One more thing...know your market BEFORE you start to produce your honey or whatever it is you are doing (queen rearing, pollination, etc) If you are planning on 5 bucks a lb for your honey but the market will only bear 1.50 than you are going to have problems. I could go on and on...but those are some things to chew on.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I got into bees just for fun, something new to learn about that is facinating as well as rewarding. Its like a chess match, you have to think three steps ahead incase something goes wrong, and with this site as an educational tool, it helps ease the pain of trial and error!! Since obtaining bees I have had a ton of people at my kids school and friends of my wife that want honey from me. I am sure I will have a great client base on a hobbiest level. My plan of starting with one hive soon escalated to purchasing a nuc and catching a swarm, my goal is to have 20 hives over the next few years, or sooner, depending on swarms I get and splits and so on. Is it something I am going to quit my day job over.......NOPE. But it is something I could rely on for a little extra play money when I retire in 17 years!!LOL

I would love for my wife to join me in the bee thing, but she is afraid of them, she will stand about 25' away and watch, even then she is nervous!! My kids on the other hand, I have to tell them to not go infront of the hive otherwise someone could get stung!! Many shady afternoons are spent with my daughter sitting in my lap watching the bees for a little while, and my sons sitting beside me as well.


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## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

MJuric said:


> wondering if maybe some of these threads might need some input from those that actually ARE doing it for a living.
> 
> ~Matt


Ever wonder why these people don't go down an question on the commercial section ?

PCM


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

PCM said:


> Ever wonder why these people don't go down an question on the commercial section ?
> 
> PCM


You probably would not even have to come up with a question. Just go down to the Commercial section and read the 45-50 pages of threads and most of your questions would be answered, and if not, you would be ready to ask some more specific questions.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

alpha6 said:


> Whoa, whoa...don't be going and discouraging people from jumping from one hive to commercial...I have bought 90% of my equipment (most of it less than two years old) from people that went out, spent a lot of money on equipment to try and make a living on beekeeping. I have seen more than a few jump into the game without knowing what it is all about.



The same can be said about manufacturing. I've seen more than a few retirement accounts and a couple "Family fortunes" go up in smoke in a few short years after starting a shop. 

You're right though, maybe I shouldn't discourage people. I've gotten more than a few good deals on equipment over the years. Then again I think this method applies to just about everything. Let someone else spend their money and buy their stuff for half price once they lose interest in it.

~Matt


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

Well that's part of my point. If you're still wondering how to do a split, over winter, what to do when my queen is gone etc etc you're probably not even thinking about the commercial problems. 

I'm not trying to belittle being in that position at all because that's exactly where I'm at. I think the difference might be however is that I have experience with the "Commercial aspect" although in a different field and realize that the actual "Work" is probably the smallest portion of any business.

IOW if you don't have a really good grasp on the "Work" you're probably not even contemplating the other aspects of the actual business and thus probably wouldn't even think to ask pertinent questions to that end.

Personally, and this is just me, I wouldn't even contemplate the "Commercial"/Business end of it until I was extremely comfortable around almost every aspect of bees. That means being very adept at diagnosing problems, pests, disease, bad queens all of it as well as queen rearing, splits, nucs and all that other stuff that I know I'm pretty much clueless about because this is my first year 

Until I can intelligently and rather confidently understand the above, I don't have a snowballs chance in Haiti's to come up with an intelligent and realistic business plan.

Just throwing a bunch of time, effort and money into a bunch of hives is opening yourself up to a whole bunch of risk right off the bat. 

~Matt


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Hey Matt...if you are out in Colorado stop by for a couple of days...some of the most beautiful yards in the Country AND I'll even let you get in some real "bee" time in the yards. Link to some of my yards. http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

Very nice. I might take you up on that if I ever get to the area. Was close a month or so ago, moved my brother out to Ventura CA via the southern root. Still not very close though 

Yes that's another thing entirely. Moving from a 5-10 hive hobby to several hundred hive business takes nearly a completely different approach to how to deal with things I'm guessing. If you spent as much time per hive as I currently do it be a full time job taking care of 20 hives 

~Matt


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## Growing Boy (Jan 28, 2009)

Wonderful pictures. Never kept bees after moving to the mountains there (just outside the eastern boundary of Rocky Mountain Nat. Park). Having had a wildflower seed business there I imagine the flow is fairly short but very intense. Glad to see the drought we suffered through there for too many years seems to be easing. Now in east Texas, the drought seems to be following me. Ah well.:scratch:


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## Mathispollenators (Jun 9, 2008)

Beekeeping isn't a 40 hour a week job, has no medical or retirement benifits, involves lots of business travel without reimbursment, high priced equipment, extremely hot working conditions, no regular pay periods or even dependable amounts of pay, experienced help isn't available, excessive government regulations, fuel cost is extreamly varible. I think you were asking what some of the negatives in commercial beekeeping was and those are some I came up with right off the top of my head. Being successful in one business may not translate to being successful in another. It takes years to build and learn any business from scratch lots of the commerical guys have inherited the bees and equipment from someone. That's how I got into it and now I'm in to deep to get out and no one wants to pay what I'ld need to sell out. Like one of the others said if you want to make a million in beekeeping you need to start with a trillion. I've also read somewhere you can make alot more money for alot less effort in most anything other than beekeeping. If you are intent on going commercial please make sure the wife has a job with benifits that you can depend on in the lean times and there are going to be lean times.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

Mathispollenators said:


> excessive government regulations,


I'd be very interested in hearing some more on this. Is the honey under food regulation? Inspections etc?



Mathispollenators said:


> That's how I got into it and now I'm in to deep to get out and no one wants to pay what I'ld need to sell out.


Worse yet more than likely you've depreciated all your capital equipment and if you were to sell you'd be paying capital gains on all that. Yes I'm in a similar boat with all my equipment except in manufacturing. No one's going to pay me enough to make it worth it and 15%-20% of it will be taken in tax. 



Mathispollenators said:


> I've also read somewhere you can make alot more money for alot less effort in most anything other than beekeeping.


Probably true and similar for many professions. I suppose it's a lot like any profession. The right contract, right conditions you can make some money. If not, welcome to an underpaid job with more stress and more risk than working for someone else  OTOH the best part is that you're the master of your own destiny.

~Matt


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Just a casual observation. But the happiest people in commercial beekeeping seem to be those who have lower material expectations. One might think I mean "Poor", but I do not. I am talking about people who are not impressed with the "Shiney" things of this world. The type of people who do not desire the best house or the latest car/truck. Often times these people are not poor at all. Their mortages are paid off, they have low debt levels and simply live well within their own means. Some are at least "Net Worth Millionaires", and you would NEVER know it. You might just need to be this way to be happy in commercial beekeeping.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Oh...you must have noticed my bee truck. (1989 Chevy 1 ton)


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

alpha6 said:


> Oh...you must have noticed my bee truck. (1989 Chevy 1 ton)


I see you know what I am talking about. It is not just commercial beekeepers. I have noticed the same thing in the happiest farmers in this area, but then again I guess beekeeping and farming are pretty much the same thing. Just smaller livestock.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Thats why A6 has so much $$$ he dont spend it all on shiny new trucks :lookout::lpf::banana:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Had a speaker come to a bee mtng one time. She knew nothing about beekeeping. But she was really impressed by all of the new expensive cars in the Motel Parking Lot. She started off by saying something about how well everyone must be doing and how beekeeping must be the best kept secret way to make lots of money. Finally someone shouted out of the back of the room, "You came in the wrong door. Those are the Cadillac Dealers who are having a Mtng here too. Ours are the ratty old pickups and flatbeds in the back of the lot."

But there is alot of money in beekeeping. You betcha.


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## Mathispollenators (Jun 9, 2008)

Yes honey prduction is a food business so we have to be inspected meeting the requirements. Here is a link to the requirements of the honey house you have to have. You can take a look at to see what you have to build as a commercial honey house in Georgia. http://www.caes.uga.edu/departments/ent/bees/documents/honeyprocessorguidelines.pdf
By the time I took over the bees from my dad there was nothing I could depreciate. But Alpha6 made me feel good I thought I had the oldest bee truck out there mines a 91 F350. Thanks Alpha I know your pain my friend. Trucks aren't the only thing we have lifts to take care of too and those are old and wear out too. I do agree if everything is right we make ok but it's agriculture and rarely is everything right.
Pollenation isn't easy as farmers are hard to deal with too. Yes contracts are good and needed but it cost you to move bees if he don't pay it cost the same to move them out too. Sometimes it's just best to take the loss and go on as Lawyers aren't cheap eighter.
Being the master of your own destiny sometimes feels like being the captian of the Titanic. It seems to be going down but I just can't swim that far and the waters to cold anyway so lets just ride it out baby. 
HPM is excatly right you can't be in this if you want the so called finer things in life. You gotta do it eighter because it's all you know or you are going to be happy with what you get anyway. I'm happy doing what I do been working bees with my dad since late 70's. I have and sometimes work as a mason when bees are in a lull and love building too. But really that and beekeeping is all I know how to do I can make money at. I also have my wife that works bees with me if it wasn't for her support and my kids help we wouldn't be in it long. 
I know I sound bitter but I wouldn't want anyone to think keeping bees as a hobby and the commerical side is alike. All the business plans you can come up with as far as cost and profit don't work as well as they do on paper in a beeyard. It's plain out fun to work bees and have them. It's also a hobby that can pay for itself by honey sales. But when you are depending on it to make the payments and send kids to college it's a whole different ballgame.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Alpha6, man you live in Gods country no doubt!! I love Colorado, hunted archery deer and elk out of Silverton and Durango. Would be the state I move to if I ever left here!! Very cool pictures also!!...............Jason


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I had considered doing it as my profession..but after all I have seen I will not grow it more than a sideline business. I have lost a lot of bees this year, i have worked long days and nights and I just do not want to do it full time! I would highly recommend doing a sideline holding pattern for a few years to see if it is for you...I can bet that much of the glamor will disappear fast...its not a job to get rich at either. Ask any commercial beekeeper what life is like and then go work with them and you will never argue with me. Oh and ask them about being treatment free...I tried that and well like I said earlier I have lost a TON of bees...what happens if you and your families life depends on those bees living?
mike


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## Sarge (Jun 26, 2006)

About 30 years ago I turned my hobby and interest into a business. I was and am a trapper. I knew the skills of a trapper as well as any, but I did not really understand the Office part of running a business. I took a small business course and even went to visit a business in another state to see how things were done over there. Those office skills are where the money is made.
It's in the office that you see just where the money comes from and where it goes. 
If you have no experience running a business it won't make any difference how many hives you have or how good you are as a Beek. You need to know it all to make it work.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Having a passion for bees does not necessarily translate to a passion for the business of bees.

Business is dollars and cents. It's a subject of its own, and you might have the same taste for bees with business mixed in. Then again, you might like it more. It depends who you are and where your passions and aptitudes are.

But making honey and making money with honey are two very different things.


Adam


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## Apiator (Apr 8, 2011)

Mathispollenators said:


> If you are intent on going commercial please make sure the wife has a job with benifits that you can depend on in the lean times and there are going to be lean times.



I do work for a general/framing contractor who says the same thing. He couldn't build the million-dollar houses he does if his wife didn't have a really good job.

The day I realized he wasn't kidding... was the day my dreams of being a successful contractor were pretty much shattered. 

Sad state of affairs all around. The people who work and make the world a better place get foreclosed; the people who never do an honest day's work get rich off manipulating our money.

Fortunately, I've learned to be happy with little more than a roof over my head, food in my belly, whiskey to drink, and a broadband internet connection. So, anything at all I can make from my bees, or if they at least pay their keep -- I'm a happy man. I won't die at 40 from a heart attack or stomach ulcers.


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## MJuric (Jul 12, 2010)

hpm08161947 said:


> But the happiest people in commercial beekeeping seem to be those who have lower material expectations....You might just need to be this way to be happy in commercial beekeeping.


You might have to be that way in any profession.

~Matt


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Well said Matt

How many people do you know that are happy.:s I would say most millionairs in any profession are NOT  most do not know *how much* is enough :s


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

Most businesses fail because of lack of experience and knowledge in ALL aspects of the business. Speaking generally, if you are doing something you enjoy and are good at it, it may occur to you that you could be doing it for a living. Even if you are working for someone else and you think you are good enough at what you are doing that you could break away from that person and go do it for yourself, you are only seeing part of the picture. You have to be a very versatile person to run a business. You must know your trade well, which isn't usually the problem. Your trade isn't the business. Your trade is only the product or means to the product. The rest of the business consists of customer relations, marketing, book keeping, as well as a vision of how your business is going to grow and an understanding of how they all work together. And really, this is only for you as the owner working the business. If you were to hire others, things just got a little more complicated. Now you must understand payroll, workers comp, and more liability issues.

I mention this, not to be negative, but just to give an idea of what a lot of people don't consider. So you are a good bee keeper. Great! Are you a good business man? Are you a good family man? Are you EXCELLENT at multi-tasking? Can you do it AND keep your sanity? Some can, some can't. Really, that is what defines a successful business man. But then again, what is success? Everyone has there own expectation and definition of success. To me, success in bee keeping at this point is to just provide my own supply of honey, which I am still struggling with. My own remodeling business, on the other hand, is booked up well into NEXT August with customers I couldn't pay to go somewhere else. It all just depends on what you're good at.

Later, John


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## CharlieN (Feb 23, 2011)

Apiator said:


> I'm a happy man. I won't die at 40 from a heart attack or stomach ulcers.


I'd just like to be 40 again....... :shhhh: 'xcuse me it's nappy time....


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Look at American history for a moment 
"A controversy resulting from an experimental apiary in Newbury, Massachusettes, in 1645 (just 20 years after the Mayflower) surrounded Mr. John Eels. He was put in charge of the village bees and quickly became North America's very first pauper, requiring financial assistance from the town in order to survive. (Let that be a forewarning to any potential beekeeper: a beekeeper was the first welfare case in the USA.) "


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