# Treatment Free in Southern California



## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

Here in southern California we have a number of beekeepers who are treatment free, including a couple of modest size commercial beekeepers (about 100 hives). I'm not sure exactly what's going on but I suspect it's related to the Africanized bees that we've had in the area for about 20 years. The treatment free bees are variable in defensiveness - some are quite docile while some are a bit hot. And by hot, I don't mean traditional Africanized bee hot - I mean just a bit more defensive than what you are probably accustomed to with European bees.

This area is a desert so the only forage is in the urban area where the land is irrigated. We also have mild winters so the bees never go completely dormant - there's always brood in the hive and some amount of nectar for forage. We have a fair number of feral bees in the area, living in the walls of outbuildings (and some homes), cable TV boxes, under buildings, in decorative concrete pillars, and other places. My theory is that when Africanized bees invaded this area, they had to take up residence in the urban area. If a hive was excessively defensive and stung people who walked by, the hive would be quickly exterminated. So there was evolutionary pressure towards docile bees. But at the same time, those feral bees had to coexist with varroa. It's well known that Africanized bees have behaviors that allow them to coexist with varroa - their behaviors keep the level of varroa in a hive at a very low level.

Those of us who keep feral bees now have those bees. In fact, I'd prefer to do a cutout of a feral hive that's a few years old than to take a swarm. A swarm might be from a managed European hive and not have the ability to deal with varroa - but a well established feral hive has proven that it can coexist with varroa.

A beekeeper friend of mine runs about 100 ex-feral hives and puts them in the backyards of people who will "foster" a hive of bees, so you know the bees can't be excessively defensive. She manages the hives, although "management" may mean visiting the hive only a few times a year. It's just too expensive to drive around and visit those hives. She harvests the honey and gives a small percent to the family fostering the hive. These are all treatment free hives - absolutely nothing is done to the hives.

I have three ex-feral hives, and do not treat, but three hives is not a big enough sample to draw conclusions from. But my hives do not swarm excessively (I make sure they always have room for more honey), they produce a very acceptable amount of honey, and they are docile (I can walk around my hives without a veil and the bees do not bother me). 

The beekeeping club in this area does not encourage people to keep feral bees, I think because they're afraid that a beginning beekeeper will get a very defensive Africanized hive and not know how to deal with it. 

Mike


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Hi Mike, I am thinking you don’t treat for mites because your mite count is low enough to not treat?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

How long have you been keeping these tf bees?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Not my experience in Coastal Central California. I note the "Urban Beekeepers of LA" facebook group has undergone a two year reorientation with regards to feral Africanized bees (and treatments). The originally rah-rah TF + Feral types are promoting requeening or euthanizing aggressive hives, and managing mites with rational approaches. I see this same "evolution" in my area -- "stars in their eyes" newbees rapidly shift to more empirically useful approaches if they stick with the vocation.

I will never forget the call I got from the Long Beach area, where a relatively experienced beek was desperate to purchase nucs with my bred queens because the local club had bee overrun with "feral bee only" absolutists, and the bees they were promoting were unmanageable.

That was just before I heard from a second source about dog kills that were happening in Long Beach due to folks keeping "feral" bees in backyards.

One of the primary advocates of "feral" bees in the southern LA basin vociferously claims the AHB in her area are "hybrids" and all the bad behavior is gone. There is **zero** peer reviewed evidence of this local "hybridization" --- and I consider it purely wishful dreaming.

When I first signed on to this forum, there was a "nym", Blue California (or similar), that was keeping feral bees among palatial "ranchettes" in northern San Diego county. He ran into a badly behaved hive, and his very last post had him passed out in a corner drug store attempting to purchase benadryl. He was transported to the hospital, and he never posted on this forum again.


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

Cloverdale said:


> Hi Mike, I am thinking you don’t treat for mites because your mite count is low enough to not treat?


The hives survive without any apparent problems from varroa with no treatment.

Mike


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

beemandan said:


> How long have you been keeping these tf bees?


I have one hive that I've had for about 5 years. I have two others that are each about 3 years old. My beekeeper friend has many hives that are 5 or more years old.

Mike


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

JWChesnut said:


> Not my experience in Coastal Central California. I note the "Urban Beekeepers of LA" facebook group has undergone a two year reorientation with regards to feral Africanized bees (and treatments). The originally rah-rah TF + Feral types are promoting requeening or euthanizing aggressive hives, and managing mites with rational approaches. I see this same "evolution" in my area -- "stars in their eyes" newbees rapidly shift to more empirically useful approaches if they stick with the vocation.
> 
> I will never forget the call I got from the Long Beach area, where a relatively experienced beek was desperate to purchase nucs with my bred queens because the local club had bee overrun with "feral bee only" absolutists, and the bees they were promoting were unmanageable.
> 
> ...


I can only pass along my own experiences, and what I've observed with other local beekeepers. I cannot comment on your experiences or on what you've read or heard.

Mike


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Mike Henderson said:


> I can only pass along my own experiences, and what I've observed with other local beekeepers. I cannot comment on your experiences or on what you've read or heard.
> 
> Mike


There are many reasons why I read these types of accounts and take them with a grain salt.
One is the inaccuracies. Your experiences go back to 2015 when you started and were given a swarm, which promptly flew the coop.
(From your 'welcome' post.)
Now there is a hive you've had for 5 years. Others for 3. Hard to take anything at face value under the circumstances.
Ugh!


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> There are many reasons why I read these types of accounts and take them with a grain salt.
> One is the inaccuracies. Your experiences go back to 2015 when you started and were given a swarm, which promptly flew the coop.
> (From your 'welcome' post.)
> Now there is a hive you've had for 5 years. Others for 3. Hard to take anything at face value under the circumstances.
> Ugh!


Okay, let me go into detail. I have a hive that was given to me at least five years ago. That's what got me started beekeeping. That's my old hive. It was established. It's because of that hive that I got to know my beekeeping friend.

After I had that hive for a while, my beekeeping friend asked me to make her a top bar hive. The deal was that she would pay for the material and I would get a swarm. She delivered the swarm but it didn't stay. 

Since then, I got two additional hives that were established, each for at least two years. I've had them for about a year.

When I posted my "welcome" post I didn't go through all of that - I just talked about the hive that I worked with the beekeeper friend with.

Mike

[Here's some pictures of my hives. First, my old hive, with three supers on it. When I first got this hive, it was somewhat hot- not terrible but if I worked unprotected around it I could get stung. But about a year ago, I noticed that it was a lot more docile. I'm guessing that the hive superseded the queen and she bred to a drone from more docile stock.








I built a "shade" for the hive some years ago because the summer sun can get pretty hot.

Here's my newer hives, two brood boxes but no supers yet. Quilt boxes on the top of both.








I have not done any treatments on any of these hives and they had no treatments before I got them

But it's hard to draw conclusions from just three hives. I think the more important point is that we have at least two commercial beekeepers in the area who are working treatment free - Backyard Bees and Guerilla Beekeepers.

[One more point: I took a beekeeping short course at Cal Poly Pomona a while back and met other hobby beekeepers who are keeping feral bees and report the same experience I've encountered. And the course at Cal Poly was not some "treatment free" class or group of people. It was a regular agricultural session where they covered varroa treatment, plus a lot of other things and the people who attended were a normal cross section of beekeepers and potential beekeepers.]


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks for starting this thread mike.

we don't get a lot of reporting about treatment free beekeeping from the west coast so the information you are bringing is most welcome. 

it would be nice if the two larger operations you mentioned would be willing to share here. a quick look at their websites reveals the information on them is mostly about products and services. i don't have accounts with the other social media venues they list for more information. 

healthy skepticism is also welcome here so long as the guidelines outlined in the unique forum rules stickied on the treatment free subforum page are observed.

happy holidays everyone!


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> many thanks for starting this thread mike.
> 
> we don't get a lot of reporting about treatment free beekeeping from the west coast so the information you are bringing is most welcome.
> 
> ...


I'm as puzzled as you probably are by what I'm seeing. I've tried to figure out why we're seeing what we are here, and the only thing that makes some sense is the Africanized bees that have been in the area for quite a while. I've attended two seminars by Randy Oliver and asked him about this but no good answers.

My problem with the Africanized bees "answer" is that the bees are not excessively defensive so I have to figure that out. One possibility is that the evolutionary pressure here is towards docile bees. Excessively defensive bees seem to get exterminated pretty quickly.

This is the opposite of the evolutionary pressure in Africa where animals and man prey on the wild hives and only the most defensive (really "bad ass") hives survive.

I assume the genes for being docile exist in Africanized bees (just as the genes for highly defensive bees probably exist in European bees and are sometimes expressed). Perhaps what we're seeing is the survival of the fittest in our feral hives, where fittest is defined as able to coexist with varroa and docile.

I'm not upset by people challenging my observations. A quote from physics is appropriate, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

And, yes, Happy Holidays, everyone.

Mike


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mike, please excuse peoples saltines... for thoses of us who have been in the trenches for a bit the numbers dont' add up some times..
such as the numbers we get from backyardbees....
100 hives, TF and almost management free that are genital and don't swarm and only have 10-15% losses- even taking out the TF part it sounds like a fairy tail to some..
aside from the $150 she charges to colect swarms, why would anyone need swarms with those above numbers?
To here JCW tell it that kind of stock would be in high demand in the area, fetching a premium price.. If I had such stock I would pull a nuc out of each and be spending my winter some were warm 
the tails of people with magic bees who won't share are getting old...one starts to think there is reason for the pattern 

not saying this isn't happing, I see no reason for some local adaption in the fearls holding the area mite loads down and people just relying on breeding to the background, but when people start saying there losses are bucking the state advrage by such a large percent it razes red flags and deserves more scrutiny
I would love to hear more about your management


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

msl said:


> Mike, please excuse peoples saltines... for thoses of us who have been in the trenches for a bit the numbers dont' add up some times..
> such as the numbers we get from backyardbees....
> 100 hives, TF and almost management free that are genital and don't swarm and only have 10-15% losses- even taking out the TF part it sounds like a fairy tail to some..
> aside from the $150 she charges to colect swarms, why would anyone need swarms with those above numbers?
> ...


I'm reporting what I've been told by Backyard Bees. But I know for sure that she doesn't treat because of the placement of her bees - and because of discussions I've had with her. Her bees are in people's back yards (mostly) and you just can't afford to go visit those sites too often. Additionally, you may have to arrange for the visit because of dogs in the yard or locked gates. Or just because people don't want someone coming into their yard without prior notice.

The big problem both of those companies have is where to place the bees and I assume that limits their growth. Also, in discussions with Janet of Backyard Bees, she has told me that she can only handle about 100 to 125 hives. She's a honey producer and does not do any of the other bee things, such as pollination, selling nucs, etc. She basically just leaves the bees alone and only harvests honey from them.

I've been to her "honey room" a number of times and she has a powered extractor but everything else is manual, including filling bottles. She sells at a farmer's market and to Whole Foods.

Regarding the losses each year, I asked her about that and did not get a clear answer so her losses could be greater. She gave me a number of hives lost so maybe I'm basing that on too high of a hive count. She stays in business so I assume she has enough hives survive to keep her in honey.

Also, note that I have the same experience in not treating, and have encountered other hobby beekeepers who also keep treatment free feral bees. Plus, we have a lot of feral hives in the area and those bees are surviving and not attacking people who come close the hives.

Mike

[I would like to get to the bottom of this as much as you would. I've read a lot and what I see is not what I hear other people reporting.]

[If anyone is in my area, I would welcome a visit. We can go through my hives, and I'll try to set up a visit to Backyard Bees. I'd very much like to resolve whether we have something good here, or if it's a mirage.]


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

mike, it looks like the university of california riverside (which is just a couple of hours away from you) has a honey bee laboratory and perhaps they would be interested in taking a look at what's going on in your area:

http://bees.ucr.edu


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I tried some of those so cal bees up here, they mited out just the same as most susceptible lines I've had. I've heard that AHB rhetoric as well from members of that same group, I don't buy into it one bit. I think the climate plays a large role in the TF survivability, you get no real winter or cold snaps which generally finish stressed hives and natural forage year round probably helps a lot too. From what I've seen personally, it seems most people are seeing some local adaptability with their bees and mites, or what I believe is the mite pressure is just lower in most areas than what we see here in the Central Valley of California due to our commercial bee densities being fairly high through out the year either for almond pollination or hybrid sunflower production among the other crops and all the large queen rearing companies.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>we don't get a lot of reporting about treatment free beekeeping from the west coast so the information you are bringing is most welcome.

I have been treatment free many years on and off for decades on the West Coast and always very up front about my losses and gains (Charlie calls that bragging). I have 25 years experience pre-mite. I run about 150 hives both mine and client's. I lose over 50% of my treatment free colonies every year and make up my losses with vigilant bait hive trapping and swarm catching. Local bee clubs import about 500 packages to my trapping zone. Those commercial bees have about a 90% loss rate within six months and pollute the feral bees with their weak genetics.

I lost 60% last year, and have lost 80% in previous years. This year every hive got Apivar at harvest and are looking very good. The best got Apivar when they were caught in spring and early summer. Apivar, great weather and a good post drought Eucalyptus flow is making for what might be my lowest losses in years. I have lost about a dozen that got Apivar (too late), and at least one divide untreated I made in June with a grafted queen from Bweaver stock. Grafted queens from feral stock stronger at this point than the grafts for Bweaver stock. Apivar timing has been difficult. Our flow lasts into July and with so many sites to extract, medication is hard to get in early enough. Randy O says 8/15. My biggest site is also my extraciting site and there I use the colonies to dry out the supers from all my sites, so that also delays medicating. Hopefully mites will not become resisitant to Apivar. 

Looking forward to extracting this pure? eucalyptus honey coming in this winter from Redwood City bait swarm Apivar treated 6/29 for six weeks. This Jumbo hive looks like it will make 150 lbs if the weather holds up. If it does we have the makings of going right back into drought conditions.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Hi Mike. I am not a TF guy, but come to this Forum once in a while to see what's up. All of us hope that someday we can all be TF. So, I am no expert but you have theorized a couple times that evolution may have something to do with the Africanized bees becoming more docile by mating with non-Africanized bees in the past 20 years. Just wanted to point out that it could be because of cross breeding, but not evolution. Twenty years is a nano second in evolutionary terms. 
Best of luck, J


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good post odfrank. 

i see that san mateo and sacramento are quite a distance north of villa park. as jrg points out differences in ecoregion, weather, gene pool, and other stressors could be at play for why the experiences you and he report are unlike that of mike and his acquaintances.

could it be the metapopulation down there in the southern part of your state holds some promise? in my view a careful evaluation wouldn't hurt if it hasn't already been done.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> i see that san mateo and sacramento are quite a distance north of villa park. as jrg points out differences in ecoregion, weather, gene pool, and other stressors could be at play for why the experiences you and he report are unlike that of mike and his acquaintances.


There's a culture divide between Northern and Southern California. It based deep in the founding myths of the region: Gold Rush vs. Tinseltown.
In Northern California, folks are deeply attuned to be skeptical -- if some one is bragging about their "claim" without showing any color, deep mythos knows its just some drunken scallawag trying to sell a worthless strike. In Southern California, everything is tinseltown and hollywood fantasy, sticking oranges on shrubs to set the "stage set".


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JWChesnut said:


> ...if some one is bragging about their "claim" without showing any color, deep mythos knows its just some drunken scallawag trying to sell a worthless strike.


so jwc, if you were in mike's shoes or mine for that matter, how exactly would you go about substantiating the 'claim'?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> There's a culture divide between Northern and Southern California. It based deep in the founding myths of the region: Gold Rush vs. Tinseltown.
> In Northern California, folks are deeply attuned to be skeptical -- if some one is bragging about their "claim" without showing any color, deep mythos knows its just some drunken scallawag trying to sell a worthless strike. In Southern California, everything is tinseltown and hollywood fantasy, sticking oranges on shrubs to set the "stage set".


So where is this divide located?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

From March 2015


Mike Henderson said:


> I'm just getting started in beekeeping


Today, Dec 25, 2017


Mike Henderson said:


> I have one hive that I've had for about 5 years. I have two others that are each about 3 years old.


I think I'm with Clyderoad on this.


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> mike, it looks like the university of california riverside (which is just a couple of hours away from you) has a honey bee laboratory and perhaps they would be interested in taking a look at what's going on in your area:
> 
> http://bees.ucr.edu


I made contact with one of the researchers from UC Riverside - he was at a meeting I attended. However, his speciality was not honey bees - some other insects that I don't remember now. I tried to get a contact to someone else who was working on Africanized bees but was unable to. It may be that not many researchers are looking into Africanized bees in this area because they don't seem to be a problem.

Mike


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## Boxelder (Sep 16, 2017)

clyderoad said:


> So where is this divide located?


The Grapevine, just south of Bakersfield


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

To beemandan - to me, having one hive, as I did in 2015, is just getting started in beekeeping. I was given that hive and didn't know a lot about bees when I got it. I didn't do much with them at first but I studied books and have learned some things about bees - but still have a lot I don't know. I continue to learn but I'd still consider myself a beginning beekeeper. I have attempted to describe accurately what I'm seeing with my bees and with the beekeepers I know.

If you look at the pictures I posted, you'll see that on my oldest hive there are two unpainted brood boxes, while on the newer hives all the boxes are painted. Those two unpainted boxes, with bees, were given to me (as an established hive) by a beekeeper who was getting out of the business and knew I was interested in getting into bees. At the time I took those, I didn't even have a bee suit - just interest in learning. It took me a while to learn what equipment I needed and what I should be doing, basically just from books. But the bees did okay without any real attention from me. 

Since that time, I've learned a lot but I've also made mistakes. Luckily, nothing serious enough to cause real damage.

Mike


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Citation: Kono Y, Kohn JR (2015) Range and
Frequency of Africanized Honey Bees in California
(USA). PLoS ONE 10(9): e0137407. 

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0137407


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good link jwc.

mike, it appears the authors had the following affiliation at the time the paper was published:

"Section of Ecology, Behavior and Evolution, Division of Biological Sciences, University of California San Diego, La Jolla, California"

mike, i would consider reaching out the them to see if they might have an interest in sampling the bees in your county. perhaps they would be interested in quantifying behavior and mite resistance as well. it would make for a good master's thesis if they have a grad student looking for one.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> Citation: Kono Y, Kohn JR (2015) Range and
> Frequency of Africanized Honey Bees in California
> (USA). PLoS ONE 10(9): e0137407.
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0137407





Mike Henderson said:


> I've tried to figure out why we're seeing what we are here, and the only thing that makes some sense is the Africanized bees that have been in the area for quite a while.
> My problem with the Africanized bees "answer" is that the bees are not excessively defensive so I have to figure that out. One possibility is that the evolutionary pressure here is towards docile bees. Excessively defensive bees seem to get exterminated pretty quickly.


The study is backing up this Hendersons statement?
Quote:
" In San Diego County, Africanized honey bees were first reported in 1994 and there now appears to be an admixture of European and African genes with the African component in the majority and no linkage between mitochondrial and morphological assessments of Africanization.

Reports from the island of Puerto Rico suggest that Africanized bees there are less aggressive than elsewhere, perhaps due to limited penetration into the Africanized population of certain regions of the African nuclear genome [42,43] "


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Correlation does not equal causation. That there are Africanized bees in CA does not necessarily mean the Africanized bees are the source of mite resistance. From what I have seen and studied, all bee populations eventually develop mite resistance given enough time and enough mite pressure that does not wipe out all colonies in an area.

Similarly, the assumption that Africanized bees are down-regulating their stinging proclivity as a result of hybridization is an unproven theory. Puerto Rico offers an opportunity to study why this occurred in an Africanized population. There is a rationale that high stinging propensity developed in the face of enormous pressure from pests, predators, and humans in Africa. When the selection pressure is scaled back, the bees no longer have an evolutionary reason to maintain a costly biological adaptation. The result is that stinging tendency reduces over time. Twenty years is just an eyeblink in time, but is enough that measurable changes in behavior can be observed.

I'm not making these statements to counter the O.P. I am encouraging caution until we know more about what is going on.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Boxelder said:


> The Grapevine, just south of Bakersfiel
> No,no,no,no. Just south of Ukiak, Ca


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Genetics in a population can shift quite quickly if there is pressure for it. "As the seventeenth century opened, it was unusual to see a horse that trotted. At the close of the same century, it was unusual to see a horse that did not trot. It was one of the most unusual transformation that horse breeding has ever seen." Centuries of breeding for horses that would not trot changed to breeding for horses that did trot and in less than a century it shifted the gene pool completely. And a generation of horses is a much longer period of time than a generation of bees.
http://hiddentrails.com/general/breeds/peruvian_paso.htm

I'm sure selection in any species is similar if selection is severe. In the case of bees near people, it is severely slanted towards nice bees.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Mike Henderson said:


> The hives survive without any apparent problems from varroa with no treatment.
> 
> Mike


Could you relate to me your mite counts or you don’t do mite counts because your bees don’t show “apparent problems”? Just curious.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Mike Henderson said:


> I have one hive that I've had for about 5 years. I have two others that are each about 3 years old. My beekeeper friend has many hives that are 5 or more years old.
> 
> Mike


So your one hive that is 5 years old swarms every year? and you do or don’t use foundation?


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

Cloverdale said:


> So your one hive that is 5 years old swarms every year? and you do or don’t use foundation?


No, I've only had one swarm that I know of. I do use wax foundation.

Mike


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

Cloverdale said:


> Could you relate to me your mite counts or you don’t do mite counts because your bees don’t show “apparent problems”? Just curious.


I haven't done any mite counts yet. Only learned how to do it about a year ago. But another reason I haven't done any is that the hive appears to be thriving. And it's been thriving for about five years. I figure if it was susceptible to mites it would have shown some signs by now. 

I'll buy a mite wash jar and check for mites.

But I want to stress that I'm not the only beekeeper in southern California that has a hive that is treatment free and several years old. I think it's because of the Africanized bees that we have in the area. The feral bees are Africanized enough to coexist with varroa but are not so defensive as to be dangerous.

Mike


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

If a colony is susceptible to mites, it appears to be thriving until it is past the point of no return. On the other hand, a mite resistant colony never has a high mite count IME.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Fusion_power said:


> IME.


perfect.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Mike Henderson said:


> The feral bees are Africanized enough to coexist with varroa but are not so defensive as to be dangerous.
> 
> Mike


This is a "head-in-sand" claim that is repeated by TF partisans in Southern California, but ignores the regular human and dog deaths that occurs. A google search for "Bee attack, Southern California" returns 660,000 hits. A quick screen capture shows these are regular and current.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JWChesnut said:


> A google search for "Bee attack, Southern California"...


i did the search and found a half dozen or so reports of attacks for 2017. do you have any data showing how the attacks have been trending over the past 20 years?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

There's another group in So Cal that's similar to backyard bees. I argue with one of their members quite often in the TF FB group as I find her posts rather delusional and sometimes border on the lines of conspiracy. For instance, they claim no one will ever look at these bees as far as resistance traits because of possible AHB genetics etc.. etc.. and that all the big queen operations, commercial bees, etc... is doing everything they can to thwart TF success in any way they can, especially with the bees they are using in So Cal. They also attribute their success to the AHB genetics and that's what everyone is using down in that area. What gets me is they never talk about losses, only that they make all their money from bees but yet have 40 hives or so, sell nucs etc... via performing cutouts and swarm calls and selling around 700lbs of honey. None of it adds up and I've gotten so cal queens and there was nothing mite resistant about them so again, I question the validity of their claims and if they're so resistant why haven't they spread throughout the state more? Again, I come to conclusion there is some basic local adaptability going on which breaks down when moderate or high mite pressure is present, or success is seen as maintaining a small amount of hives by collecting swarms and performing cutouts to maintain numbers. This does seem to be a common trend in the TF groups in general though, success is gauged as just having bees each year, and hives acquired from swarms and removals to maintain hive counts equals successful TF beekeeping. Personally, I don't see this as any type of success. I could quit my day job and do removals and cutouts and get on swarm call lists and probably easily maintain 50 hives, actually, wouldn't even have to quit my day job. I gauge success on either growth (Apiary or hive) or longevity of the hive, with queen longevity playing into that as well and the bees maintaining low mite counts preferably. Also, I want to see performance maintained in other locations, not just local adaptation.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Delusional and tin-foil conspiracy all blended together. I've been watching those posts too.
I got in a online dust-up with one the acolytes, who insisted that AHB are only aggressive because they suffered from "trauma as larvae". Absent trauma, I was assured those bees would be as sweet as tupelo honey. "Trauma as Larvae", I kid you not.


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## Mike Henderson (Mar 19, 2015)

*Eppur si muove*

I posted my observations because I though people would be interested in what I've seen here. I'll continue to observe and collect data and report back in about a year.

Mike


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Eppur si muove*



Mike Henderson said:


> I posted my observations because I though people would be interested in what I've seen here. I'll continue to observe and collect data and report back in about a year.


we are very interested in what you are experiencing there mike. 

it's the same situation with my reporting in that i've yet to get objective corroboration from third parties such as researchers or department. of agriculture officials but i'm working on it!

consider contacting the folks in the links i provided above and tell them your story. 

please don't wait a whole year to let us know what's going on with your bees as well as the others in your area!

there are lots of folks reading your thread who never post that are also following with interest. you may have something special going on there or you may not. what we all would like to know (including yourself i believe) are answers to the question 'how is it exactly that these bees are able to survive and be productive without mite treatments?'.

to that end all we can do at this point is speculate as to the reason(s), but that speculation lends itself to skepticism. so far the discussion has been relatively civil but i've got your back should that line get crossed. thanks again for sharing your experiences here.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> Delusional and tin-foil conspiracy all blended together. I've been watching those posts too.
> I got in a online dust-up with one the acolytes, who insisted that AHB are only aggressive because they suffered from "trauma as larvae". Absent trauma, I was assured those bees would be as sweet as tupelo honey. "Trauma as Larvae", I kid you not.
> View attachment 36982


Yes JW, I really dislike her, I believe I actually hit a nerve and shut her up with my reply to her on that post... similar situation with that group, well members in that group promoting bees overwinter in a state of torpor, basically, where they appear to be dead until you warm them up.... they really believe that though, but I'm trying hard to really educate them.... but I don't see why they can't make the conclusions themselves... if bees reach a state of torpor, when it's 15 degrees out for the next week or even few days..... what's going to happen.... they can't formulate that the bees obviously would freeze as they cannot generate heat in this state... it really makes me appreciate the TF guys in this crowd as they've really taken the time to learn bees and actually understand the biodynamics of the hive and just aren't narrowly focused zealots of their philosophy.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Eppur si muove*



Mike Henderson said:


> I posted my observations because I though people would be interested in what I've seen here. I'll continue to observe and collect data and report back in about a year.
> 
> Mike


Mike, I find it interesting as well, as there does seem to be a pocket of success down there but it's hard to say, because as you've experienced, people don't really talk about their loss rates very openly or directly.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

*Re: Eppur si muove*

jrg13
Loss rate is one thing but even if it weren't talked about, it would not be the only measure of success. The mad splitter creates a situation where he expects up to 75 percent loss rate but still consideres himself successfull cause he still has a lot of nucs to sell. I do think that lost of times people pick at what can be considerred success if it is not success as they count it. One thing that I do is take people at face value for what the do say they are doing added with what I can actually see. I do read between the lines a bit on what is not being said also but still listen to what somebody says. The guy I bought my bees from says he does not treat for mites. He says he has kept bees for 20 years. I know he had a hive to sell me when I wanted one and I know he has bees. I don't know if he has lost all his hives ever. I don't know his lost rate. I do know it was not so bad that he quite and so was successfull enough to keep doing it for 20 years. I don't know if he does like square peg did this year and made six hundred dollars per hive but then again, I don't know that many treaters that did that either. I do know that in the way he counts, he is successfull enough that he keeps keeping bees. I understand people looking at what someone else does and seeing if what they are doing would work for the guy that is looking. 

I will be honest, I might rather lose 20% of my bees and not have to take counts and buy things to treat rather then only lose 10% but have to do all that stuff. I might only make big splits or I might make a bunch of small splits that I lose more of but can still come out ahead. It would be nice to know everything about those big 100 hive beekeepers that mike talks about that don't treat. What I hear in this thread is that mike believes them when they say they don't treat and he knows they still have bees. Mike knows what he has did. Yes, there may be some things guessed at and some things not known also but it is just like the guy I bought my bees from, I knew he did good enough to sell me a hive.

There are just so many ways to keep bees and get something from them that satisfies the person doing it that the definition of success is more of a personal thing.

Even the addition when using data is hard if you take platforms like mel uses and try to fit that to what others do.

losses are hard to count also. If you catch a july swarm, do you count it or consider it dead when you get it. 
Cheers
gww


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> bees overwinter in a state of torpor, basically, where they appear to be dead until you warm them up.... they really believe that though, but I'm trying hard to really educate them.... if bees reach a state of torpor, when it's 15 degrees out for the next week or even few days..... what's going to happen.... they can't formulate that the bees obviously would freeze as they cannot generate heat in this state...


15F = -9 C

In that temperature (with my bees) I really have to take a good close look to see if the hive is alive. The bees in the outer shell of cluster do not move AT ALL.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Eppur si muove*



Mike Henderson said:


> I posted my observations because I though people would be interested in what I've seen here. I'll continue to observe and collect data and report back in about a year.
> 
> Mike


Please take a stand and update your experience before a year is over.

I´m in germany and have no africanized bees around, still I´m very interested. That because I have a new acquaintance who uses the descendant of native black bees in switzerland. They act very differently than our gentle bred bees. They bring not much honey and are defensiv. They survived tf beekeeping with 10% loss for years. They are not isolated.
I don´t want to have those bees because it´s a danger to my neighbors. Still, I want to know what strategies they have to survive.
You might call it research interest. 



> This does seem to be a common trend in the TF groups in general though, success is gauged as just having bees each year, and hives acquired from swarms and removals to maintain hive counts equals successful TF beekeeping. Personally, I don't see this as any type of success. I could quit my day job and do removals and cutouts and get on swarm call lists and probably easily maintain 50 hives, actually, wouldn't even have to quit my day job. I gauge success on either growth (Apiary or hive) or longevity of the hive, with queen longevity playing into that as well and the bees maintaining low mite counts preferably. Also, I want to see performance maintained in other locations, not just local adaptation.


JRG13
+1 having no ferals around. My acquaintance collects swarms, but those are escaped hybrids. They are not established as ferals. So it´s very interesting why they survived in the wild.

Sibylle


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> "Trauma as Larvae", I kid you not.


just saying, 
https://www.researchgate.net/public...aggression_and_resilience_to_immune_challenge


> I will be honest, I might rather lose 20% of my bees and not have to take counts and buy things to treat rather then only lose 10% but have to do all that


The BIP results for your area says 35% losses(last 4 years) with that plan, not so bad all in !! 
not 20% but I would play those odds, my state they say you have to treat hit 35%... TF is 43% loses... 
my mirco area (co is the size of many smaller states I grew up in in NE) I went 0,0,( 20 hives package bees moved in 300 or so yards away left bond and replaced yearly) and 100,100,100 so I quit for a few years till I got a random swarm call from a old contact, and then 2 others, switch to fall OA=0 losses ie 5 alive while the bonder lost 100%... now we shale see... I split like mad.. took the 5 and a few swarms to about 38...a split or 2 too far/late... had a bunch not mate out/grow out... so with queen failure and combining weak clusters, and the traped swarms failing and the caught ones blooming (no clue here) its 20...I think :s (with a recuse from an abandoned yard a week ago) no F clue on how to calculating "losses"


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Msl
100, 100, 100.
I don't blame you, you got to do something.
One thing about bip average. Some lose some and some lose all. 
Cheers
gww
ps randy oliver touches on the larva thing also and says that larva raised during low food times only carry about half a load of pollen when they become foragers.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Some lose some and some lose all.


yes, espicaly for the new guy with 1-2 hives it tends to be all or nothing prospect


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

*Re: Eppur si muove*



SiWolKe said:


> Please take a stand and update your experience before a year is over.
> 
> I´m in germany and have no africanized bees around, still I´m very interested. That because I have a new acquaintance who uses the descendant of native black bees in switzerland. They act very differently than our gentle bred bees. They bring not much honey and are defensiv. They survived tf beekeeping with 10% loss for years. They are not isolated.
> I don´t want to have those bees because it´s a danger to my neighbors. Still, I want to know what strategies they have to survive.
> ...


I recently read on Bee-l that AHB are 
less defensive if they have a small brood nest.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Eppur si muove*

Siwolke, I find it most interesting that most of the swarms I get are actually the most susceptible bees. Perhaps they're someone else's bees which survived only due to treatment but I'll never know and none are ever marked.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Eppur si muove*



JRG13 said:


> Siwolke, I find it most interesting that most of the swarms I get are actually the most susceptible bees. Perhaps they're someone else's bees which survived only due to treatment but I'll never know and none are ever marked.


I would be interested to know how long it will take until this vulnerability becomes visible and if it makes a difference under which conditions these swarms are kept.
For example whether they have the opportunity to develop themselves or whether this is accelerated by giving comb, brood comb and feed.

I have an acquaintance who catches swarms, they are not ferals. He sees marked queens sometimes. He puts them into empty small boxes ( Hinterbehandlungsbeuten) and leaves them alone for one season and one winter.
After that he starts the beekeepers managements, they become production hives. Survival rate the first winter is high.
But he lives in an area which has very long cold winters and short seasons with very good flow. Could be the mites perish.


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