# Commercial filter unit from Dadant, setup and use.



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If I am correct, you are using a positive displacement pump, which can not be "throttled", to push unheated honey though a filter intended for 150 deg honey.

Am I close?

Crazy Roland


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## keqwow (Jun 7, 2006)

Well I am not sure if it is a positive displacement pump...that goes beyond my engineering knowledge, but I am pushing unheated honey through a filter in which they "suggest the honey be at least 100 degrees for longer lasting filters." This suggests to me that I will simply have to replace my filters more frequently, but it is all new to me so........???


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Heated honey is necessary to the best functioning of this straining system. The bag should have been wet before honey was put in it too. As wet as if you had just cleaned it. You shouldn't have to replace your Dadant filters. Unless you mean changing out clogged filters w/ clean filters.

Have you talked to the guys at Dadant's in Waverly? Drive down there and ask them what you should be doing.


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## plcnut (Mar 8, 2013)

A gear pump is a positive displacement pump. The only way to throttle it down is to slow it down, or add a bypass. Putting a ball valve in-line is a bad idea on a gear pump. 

If the pump is belt drive, then you may be able to change sheave sizes to slow it. If it is direct-drive, then you would have to change the motor (unless it is 3 phase).

If you don't want to buy a different pump or filter, then I would probably lean towards the bypass valve. Basically you connect a line from the pump outlet back to the pump inlet with a gate valve in between. This will allow the excess pressure to be bled back and recirculated.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

until you heat the honey Im sure the dadant filter will not work. ya probably didnt want to hear that. good luck


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Wellllllll, there should be a relief valve between the pump and the filter. Now you could drive the pump with a DC drive that has a currrent limit feature setting the torque of the motor such that it would not go over 40 psi. This is effect would protect the system. The flow would vary as the viscosity of the honey varies and the clogging of the filter. If it were me I would have a pre-filter. This would catch the larger pieces and save cleaning the finer filter more often. You could also pre-strain the honey first to do the same thing.

A greater issue can be the viscosity of the honey on the suction side of the pump. It may require heating the honey so the pump does not cause cavitation. Another solution is to pressurize the infeed tank supplying the pump so you don't have to heat the honey if that is what you are trying to avoid. Keep the in feed line as short and as large as you can make it right up to the pump. Ex. if the pump is a 1 inch run a 2 inch line to it and reduce right at the pump.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Brian, what do you suppose the simplest way would be to get honey from an extractor to pass thru a nylon bag strainer into a tank, bucket, or barrel? Isn't the simplest way the best for most people?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

https://www.brewershardware.com/FILTER1.html

I have used filter strainers like these in a 2 inch version for gels well over 100K centipoise. You can select the screen you want for how fine you want to filter. These are extremely easy to clean.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm not an engineer.

But if you have a filter that can only handle 5 gpm, and a pump that is trying to move 6-8 gpm, how about putting a Tee fitting on the output of the pump and splitting the honey flow into (2) identical filters?

That doubles your filtering capacity and reduces the back pressure at the pump.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Brian, what do you suppose the simplest way would be to get honey from an extractor to pass thru a nylon bag strainer into a tank, bucket, or barrel? Isn't the simplest way the best for most people?


The simplest way that I know of is a pneumatic piston transfer pump. We did this many times with a 2 inch pump (Aero brand). The pump will run as long as the filter stays clean. As the filter builds up the flow will slow down. I think the closest thing you could find today for the Aero replacement is made by Graco. Maybe Rader could find something else. Note that as you increase the pneumatic pressure on the pump the pressure on the output will increase. These pumps are expensive because they are tri clover food grade pumps.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> That doubles your filtering capacity and cuts down the back pressure.


When the filters are clean. The gear pump will continue to pump at near its rated value because it is a positive displacement pump. This type of pump has to slow down as the flow is restricted or you will have damage.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

And?

Surely _any _filter needs to be cleaned periodically. The pump obviously can handle a certain amount of back pressure - that is what the comments in the original post about changing the filter when the pressure gets up to 40 PSI is about.

Add filtering capacity until the 'normal' back pressure with clean filters is under 15 PSI, and change/clean filters before the pressure builds to 40 PSI.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I'm not an engineer.
> 
> But if you have a filter that can only handle 5 gpm, and a pump that is trying to move 6-8 gpm, how about putting a Tee fitting on the output of the pump and splitting the honey flow into (2) identical filters?


Or you could start w/ the proper pump and filter system, which has an overflow tank built in to the side of the filter basket tank w/ a hose to return honey to the tank from which it came.

Graham and Brian, honey pumps don't run continuously. They are usually turned on when needed and then turned off, some times by float activated switch. There are ways to switch filter bags.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

keqwow said:


> The last issue seems to be with the filter unit. I am using a bronze gear pump from Mann Lake and pumping my honey into a commercial in-line filter from Dadant (http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=631). Now the instructions state that the pressure gauge is not suppose to go over 15 psi and, then later in the instructions it states that when it goes up to around 40 psi it is an indication that you need to change the filter bag. I turned on my pump and immediately the needle on the pressure gauge moved up to the limit of the gauge. Honey was moving out the outlet of the filter but the pressure is way too high. My pump is rated at 6-8 gallons/minute and I see on Dadant's page is says it is rated for flow rates of "up to 5 gpm."


Looking back, do you think that maybe you would not be having these issues had you bought all of your parts from the same supplier? Does the pump that Dadant supplies run at the proper pressure? If you haven't used some of these parts maybe you can send them back to the supplier for credit and and get what you need.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

I think that it's the lack of heat that is the biggest issue. The beekeeper that I know who has this filter heats the honey to 100-110 and let's it settle at least overnight before pumping it through that filter. If the honey is a lot cooler you get issues with the filter plugging and cavitation. The same if you don't let the honey settle first. If you want to filter cooker honey maybe the non-pressurized Maxant basket type unit would be better?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Graham and Brian, honey pumps don't run continuously. They are usually turned on when needed and then turned off, some times by float activated switch. There are ways to switch filter bags.


Mark, I do understand that honey pumps don't run continuously. But _keqwow_'s stated issue with the pump putting out higher pressure than the filter is designed to handle needs to be addressed. My suggestion of adding an _additional _filter cuts down the back pressure on the pump. I did not intend to imply that an additional filter will increase the overall honey throughput of the entire system.


Adding one or more additional filters allows _keqwow_ to utilize the equipment he has already purchased (and may not be able to return as it has already been used).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I bet he mixed equipment from different suppliers and is now spending his savings. But I await his answer.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Not sure why you are waiting, Mark. He specified in post #1 that the filter was from Dadant and the pump was from Mann Lake.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mark
Its not the mixture of equip. ya cannt pump cold honey thru a dadant filter without the pressure building up.I dont care what kind of pump or plumbers night mare you create. an oac filter from canada will work with cold honey but it is by gravity. a tall small dia. tank does a good job of settling honey. until the honey is heated the dadant filter will not work. It is a good system but must be used with a heated sump.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

beeware10 said:


> an oac filter from canada will work with cold honey but it is by gravity.


What is an "oac filter"?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Not sure why you are waiting, Mark. He specified in post #1 that the filter was from Dadant and the pump was from Mann Lake.


See Post #15.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

they were developed in canada back in the maybe 50's. they were maybe 3 feet tall. It was tapered and 3-4 screens mounted inside each other. first the honey went thru a course screen then a smaller one, then a finer one. I believe it did a good job of filtering cooler honey. probably a poor description but there must be pictures on the web.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Thanks. I had a decent look around and couldn't find any photos, but understand the principle.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Actually, Radar is on to something. 3 filters in parallel , with isolation valves before and after, and individual drain valves, would be the most efficient setup. Put a well pump pressure switch on the pump. Start with 2 filters. When the switch cuts in and out, open valves for filter 3, close and drain filter 1. Change filter 1. When pressure switch cuts in and out, repeat process for next filer, 2.

Crazy Roland


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm using the same basic system as you. Mann Lake pump, and Dadant in-line filter. I have two in-line filters series so anything that makes it past the first is caught by the second....as when cleaning the first.

The honey has to be hot, minimum 110-120. The gauge on mine hasn't worked in years, so I clean the filter when the hose swells, or when the amount of honey being pumped slows to the point where the input into the final sump exceeds the flow through the pump...sump overflows. 

What kind of filter bags are you using? Felt type from Dadant? They're too expensive and not very washable...maybe you can wash them 2 or 3 times before they are plugged. You can buy nylon filter bags from Filtration Unlimited that are very washable and can be re-used many times. They are available in different meshes...I use 150 micron for basic straining. If I need a finer mesh, I can put a 55 micron bag in the second canister.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> They are usually turned on when needed and then turned off, some times by float activated switch.


So the whole point of this is to pump the honey out of the extractor, filter it and put it in barrels or buckets and not bottle it right away? Then you have to heat the honey again in a bottling tank to put it in jars. Do larger operations do it this way?

As a small guy I would be inclined to just pump the honey into a tank, say 250-500 gallon, let it settle and tap off the tank above the bottom and strain it as you bottle. You can put a float valve /switch on your bottling vat above your piston dispenser.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> So the whole point of this is to pump the honey out of the extractor, filter it and put it in barrels or buckets and not bottle it right away?


Usually there is a sump tank between the extractor and the bulk tank. There are plenty of commercial beekeepers that don't bottle honey. Many, if not most put their honey in barrels and sell it to packers, and don't need to filter it. But if you are putting honey into buckets that you want to sell as already strained/clean honey then you need a filter system in the line.

I have a friend who filters before his honey goes into his bulk tank. There are a couple of different ways to do the same thing.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

After much consideration when I setup my straining, I decided instead of going with the Dadant in line filter to use Maxant double filter basket. Mostly because it will NOT build up pressure. It also has an overflow protection which is gravity driven back to the drums.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

BMAC said:


> After much consideration when I setup my straining, I decided instead of going with the Dadant in line filter to use Maxant double filter basket. Mostly because it will NOT build up pressure. It also has an overflow protection which is gravity driven back to the drums.


BMAC, have you been happy with the Maxant filter? How long do the bags last? do you filter right from a sump or let the honey settle first?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I have been happy with the filter basket. We settle the wax in the drums and scrape off the 3 inches of wax just before it goes to the filter basket (mostly because we lack the room for a bulk tank for settling and we dont have a spin float yet).

We can run 2 drums at a time and we clean the strainer bags after each run. We planned for this and bought extra strainer bags when we bought the unit last year. However it has served us well to this point. I could see using their quad setup in the future but for now their double is working just fine. The pump we use from the drum to the basket is the honey pump they sell which is geared for very slow operation. It takes about 30 minutes to empty a drum of honey but its slow enough it doesn't over run the strainer. 

The honey DOES need to be warm.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BMAC said:


> It also has an overflow protection which is gravity driven back to the drums.


Gravity pulls the honey through the strainer too, doesn't it? That's the kind of simplicity I like. No pressure necessary.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

BMAC said:


> I have been happy with the filter basket. We settle the wax in the drums and scrape off the 3 inches of wax just before it goes to the filter basket (mostly because we lack the room for a bulk tank for settling and we dont have a spin float yet).
> 
> We can run 2 drums at a time and we clean the strainer bags after each run. We planned for this and bought extra strainer bags when we bought the unit last year. However it has served us well to this point. I could see using their quad setup in the future but for now their double is working just fine. The pump we use from the drum to the basket is the honey pump they sell which is geared for very slow operation. It takes about 30 minutes to empty a drum of honey but its slow enough it doesn't over run the strainer.
> 
> The honey DOES need to be warm.


Thanks for the feedback. I need to get something setup this winter. I have been try to decide between something simple like odfrank's nylons or a filter bag hanging from the end of the pipe and a Maxant double or quadruple. I am looking at the same pump you are using as well. I would like to pump and filter right from the clarifier through the filter to a single large bottling tank.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Adam,

I think the filter basket would work well. We have used the nylon method a time or two and were very dissatisfied with the results. The double does a fine job and so long as zero crystalization and the wax has been skimmed off top we have had no issues. It probably could do more than 2 drums at a run but currently we are only setup on a 2 drum system. Though I am working on getting a 6 drum system in place so we will really test the basket filter.

Mark yes its all gravity.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BMAC said:


> Mark yes its all gravity.


Gravity was the kind of simplicity I was trying to get Brian Cardinal, aka Acebird, to consider. Some things have already been engineered. Further engineering complicates things, unnecessarily.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Gravity was the kind of simplicity I was trying to get Brian Cardinal,


I use gravity Mark but I am not trying to meet a production rate or any filtration spec. There are only two reasons that you need a pump, one is for transferring usually to a higher location and the other is to push the honey through a fine filter. If you have elevation you can extract on the second floor and gravity feed to everything else but that means getting all the frames to the second floor. Many barns have a ramp to the second floor where you might be able to use your bob cat to get the frames up to.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Heated honey and gravity are good enough for most honey production situations. Unless you are really putting out some production.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Let me understand what you are doing... You filter the honey and put it in buckets or barrels and then you use the buckets or barrels with the bottling vat to package in jars. Is this correct? What do you consider costs (something you expense) in any of these operations?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My honey is extracted, put into a large tank, allowed to settle, and then tapped off into buckets, unstrained. The unstrained buckets of honey are stored until I use them to fill jars. Expenses? The cost of the buckets. Why?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

zhiv9 said:


> What is an "oac filter"?


Ontario Agricultural College


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Expenses? The cost of the buckets. Why?


No costs for power, heat, water, sewer, space and maintenance? Do you expense any equipment?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Mark, why don't you you just post your IRS tax return and make it easier on Ace ....


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Acebird said:


> No costs for power, heat, water, sewer, space and maintenance? Do you expense any equipment?


Kind of an odd line of questioning - is there somewhere you are going with it? I pretty closely follow what Mark does, though I filter my honey before putting it in pails. Then I melt the pails and bottle as demand requires. My customers like liquid honey and I don't like heating it more times than necessary. I bottle what I can sell before it will crystallize. That way I only heat it once and you don't get the layer of foam that you get when melting a case of honey bottled in jars. If I could only talk them all into creamed honey, I would hardly need to heat it at all.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I wasn't looking for a dollar value. It is hard to justify any changes if there is no cost advantages.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

zhiv9 said:


> you don't get the layer of foam that you get when melting a case of honey bottled in jars.


It foams if you heat it in jars and it doesn't do it if you heat it in a bucket or you can keep the foam from getting in the jars? I guess the choice is the customer's heat it or take it crystallized.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> No costs for power, heat, water, sewer, space and maintenance? Do you expense any equipment?


Oh, yeah, those things too. I just thought that was a given.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Acebird said:


> or you can keep the foam from getting in the jars?


This one. Every time you heat and cool in jars the foam gets a little thicker.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The only time I see foam in jars of honey is when I try to get the last of the honey out of the tank. I usually stop bottling when I see foam.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

It is a very fine layer of foam, just 1/16" to 1/8" at the top of the jar. It only happens when clearing jarred liquid honey that starts to cloud or crystallize.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh, I see what you mean. I don't keep honey in jars around very long. It gets delivered to stores well before that happens.

My honey, the last cpl yrs anyway, only gets heated twice. Once when I warm it up hot enough to strain and then when I warm it up to bottle.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I like the Maxant filter too. I'm using the single filter, honey goes from the extractor into a clarifier and then pumped up to the filter and then flows out of the filter into a barrel or buckets. I can run about 1 1/2 barrels through the filter before it starts over flowing back into the clarifier. I've got an extra filter so it doesn't take long to get going again when it is stopped up. After that I use a Maxant bottling tank to bottle the honey. I try not to get too much honey bottled at one time so I don't have to deal with crystallized honey in the bottles. So far it works great for my little apiary. 

I considered the Dadant filter before I went with the Maxant filter but, I was scared I would have the same problem you are having now.


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