# Rabbet Joint Hive box quality?



## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

As I have watched wooden ware get more expensive each year and as my wood working skills have improved I have decided to make all my boxes myself as I can make them much cheaper. Yes I understand you can not make them much cheaper than you can buy them at conventional lumber prices but I have an ace up my sleeve when it comes to lumber. 

That said I have experimented quite a bit now over the past few years building boxes. My table saw will not accommodate a dado stack but I have a router and table. I first made some simple butt joints and braced them with wood handles and they work ok but really annoy me when it comes time to wrap hives for winter. I also had a problem getting strait cuts on my boards but I have mastered that now and have started using a rabbet joint on both ends of all boards so there is four points of contact at each box joint. It is a bit of a chore to get the bit set just right to take of the perfect amount of each board to get a flush fit but well worth it when done. 

So my real question is for those who have tested this joint over the years in their apiaries and what your opinion is with this type of joint? I glue, clamp, then put screws in to hold them tightly together while the glue dries. I use a router and strait 3/4 inch plunge bit to make and holds and rabbets. So far them seem quite strong and do not flex much so I am hoping they will service as well or nearly as my purchased finger joint boxes. I am also entertaining selling these boxes to people who ask me for equipment. I would have been ashamed to sell a butt jointed box but I would not be ashamed to sell these on the visual appearance of them but I don't want people shaking their head two years later and cursing me for them.

What do you think?


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

I have the same question. The bees have taken over and I began running out of hive bodies for them. I am cheap too, so the $2 I save per box is worth it to me. What I am doing with mine is using my table saw to make my rabbet joints and only cuttng the front and rear boards. I clamp and glue them but have not been using screws. I have just been using 6 nails per corner from the old brad nail gun.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I feel that sealing the exposed endgrain with Titebond III will help to extend the life of my woodenware. I also run a bead of glue on the inside corners of all my assemblies. For me, the time and cost of glue is well spent when I have joints that are nearly impermeable ...

I prefer buying Miller's commercial boxes and save money on building the accessories ...


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## [email protected] (May 12, 2010)

Rabbet joints are fine. I have mads 100s of boxes over the years using a good rabbet joint. Use an exterior glue such as Titebond ll then nail with plenty of 7d or 8d galvanized nails. Exterior screws also work well. Brad nails are not big enough to do any real good. When making equipment, Make sure you adhear to the proper dimensions or nothing else will match. Adam


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

jaseempt......WI-beek.... In the upper right corner of this page of the Forum there is a, "search box" (below the box it says, "advanced search".) Enter the words rabbet joint There are multiple threads about this subject. There are multiple answers to your question. This question has gone around several times. There is also a poll that was taken comparing the various joints. Hope this will help you to decide.

Rabbet joints are time tested in various furniture applications, and will certainly work well for bee boxes. Commercial companies use the box joint mainly, for ease of assembly by beekeepers. Box joint boxes will virtually square themselves, where rabbet joint and butt joint boxes do require clamps and square to assemble. I have posted many times, and I really believe that any joint; box, rabbet, butt, dove tail, etc, when used with glue and the proper number of nails, some sort of preservative (this can start another whole topic that has also been discussed),paint, stain, wax dip, others, will outlive the beekeeper.

cchoganjr


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## bigdog (Dec 5, 2010)

Rabbet boxes are the only ones I have. I cut over 400 deeps last winter. They are easier to assemble than box joints for me. My guru still cuts his own and has some that are over 30 years old and still doing the job. It all boils down to glue and paint.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Rabbet joints are fine, I use them on telescoping covers and inner covers because it's too much trouble right now to set up a box joint jig for that application.

Use the table saw, it's less work in my opinion. Set the blade aboslutely square to the table (use a verified square, not the scale on the saw), set your fence absoultely square to the blade (a whole excercise in frustration, but you need it that way anyway) and set the blade height and fence to cut exactly 3/8" wide remainder 3/8" deep. Cut all the boards, outside face to the fence so they all have 3/8" thick "tongues", then set the blade height and fence distance to get a rabbet that exactly matches the boards together with no gaps. Takes a bit of fiddling, but once you get it set, cut all the boards at one time. Watch for variance in board thickness and adjust to get the correct interior dimensions!

Properly cut, the box should be self-squaring. I like to leave a very shallow saw kerf inside the joint for glue, about 1/32" or so. You will need to brace or clamp to the box to keep it square while nailing or screwing it, unlike box joints. Rack the box flat and square before the glue dries, it's almost impossible to flatten or square them up after.

Unless you toss them out of a truck driving down the highway or fling them across the room, they should be fine. Keep them waterproof on the exterior by whatever means you like, and they will outlast you.

Peter


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

My father made some (hundreds) of deeps in the late 40's with rabbet joints. They still function, but are no where near as rigid as the box joint deeps of the same age.

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## jamneff (Mar 5, 2012)

I have been making all my own boxes this year. I use rabbit joints on the ends but hear is a link for a finger joint jig which can be used with a router http://www.sawdustmaking.com/Box Joint/boxjointjig.html. I use 3 drywall screws and titebond III havn't had any pop yet. Good luck.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Box joints are definitely better, but harder to make and less forgiving of less than perfect lumber.

A dado jig isn't that hard to make, and other than being a bit slower to cut, they are not hard to make once you get a jig working right.

Absolutely necessary to ensure that everything is SQUARE on the saw, though -- use a quality, verified square to get the table, blade, and jig absolutely dead on. If you don't, you will get boxes that aren't flat (high corners) and hard to put together.

Peter


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Just my 2 cents, I make all my own boxes with rabbit joints and then glue them together with "Liquid Nails Exterior Heavy Duty" glue. This glue is not pretty like wood glue, but is a sub-floor adhesive. Very thick and fills gaps.
I think these boxes are as strong and will last as long as any.


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

Rabbets work good but in my opinion not as well as a box joint. The moisture content of the wood must be just right for the rabbet not to cup in years to come no matter what kind of glue you use.Staples or brads seem not to hold them as well as nails. Just my opinion. I am working on a box joint machine now and any ideas- recomendations are greatly appreciated.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

All you need to cut perfect box joints is a dado set of the correct width, a good square tablesaw (no wobbly arbors allowed!) and a good, stable cross-slide, and a couple pieces of scrap lumber.

Set up your dado blade (7/8" is good, although most new ones are really only 13/16". Make sure there is no sawdust trapped between the blades (I don't recommend a wobble dado, it won't cut flat bottom slots). Set the cross slide square to the blade with the blade square to the table and cut a slot through your scrap piece -- should be 4" high at least and long enough to support your boards. Cut the slot the exact depth you want the joint to be (3/4" for "regular" lumber, whatever the correct depth to get the interior dimensions right). Dismount the dado blade, and measure the slot in backer you just made exactly, then cut a short strip of wood exactly the same width and depth of the slot. Make it long enough to cut in half and stick out at least an inch from the backer, and keep the other part handy

Glue and nail this short piece into the slot in the backer. Ensure it fits exactly, is perfectly square, and is exactly perpendicular to the face of the backer. Sounds like a lot of work, but in fact once you set it up right it will last for years, best to get it perfect.

Use the second piece of your guide that you just glued in and set the backer board on the cross-slide so that the guide piece exactly fills the space between the right side of the blade and the guide glued into the backer. This space is critical, as if it's not exactly right, the box joint won't be perfectly level at the corners and the fingers and spaces will not line up.

Clamp the backer onto the cross slide and cut a test joint. use scrap, and you only need about two fingers and two spaces, any significant problems will show up right away. Cut the first board by butting it up against the guide, cutting a slot, then lift the board and put it over the guide and cut another. Repeat until they are all cut. For the matching board, put the first one on after flipping it so the face that was toward the blade is now on the backer and the first slot is over the guide -- this makes the offset for the first finger exactly the width of the first finger on the other board. Cut as above, noting that the notch should be exactly flush with the top of the board (no "fur" or super thin shaving left over). 

Check to see that the ends fit together at 90 degrees in a flat joint, and that they give a straight board if you put them end to end. Adjust whatever you need to to get them right, usually the exact location of the backer on the cross slide. When it's right, screw the backer to the cross slide and test again. If it works, you can take it off and put it back on whenever you like with no "fiddling". If it's wrong, fix it.

Things to watch for: Make sure the board fits down onto the guide with the end flush on the table -- if necessary, file off part of the top of the guide to get it there. If you don't, you will tend to cut both a tapered depth of slots AND they will be off square, and the fingers won't fit together easily. Worse, since you can always tap the box together with a hammer, they won't be flat, and that's hard to fix. Make absolutely certain that the slots are the correct depth -- too shallow and the boxes will be too big, too deep and they will be too small. Small is worse than big, as the frames will fit OK if loose in a big box but only a small change to the small side and they won't go in.

Drill all the fingers (unless they have knots, in which case you won't be nailing them anyway) with a hole slightly smaller than the nail you intend to use. Assemble as usual -- that is, apply glue, put one nail in each end of all four boards, and check for square and flat. Adjust as needed and nail up. 

Once it's set up, you can cut boxes pretty fast. Make sure your saw can pull a wide dado, and keep the saw sharp. If you, like me, have a belt driven saw, make sure the belt is tight and in good condition, as the saw will inevitable burn if it slows down too much.

It actually doesn't take much more time to set one of these up than it does to type this out.

Peter


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

Thanks for comments, and yes I will do a search on the joint when I have time to read up on it. The reason I asked here mainly is for the question I asked about selling boxes with rabbet joints and it has not really been answered.

*Would you sell them or maybe a better question would be, Would you buy rabbet jointed beehive boxes for your operation?*


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I made both kinds in the late '70s and rot has been the determining factor in how long a box lasted. These fir rabbited supers have out lasted pine dovetailed supers.








I think there is less rot exposure in a rabbit joint. Any super full of honey dropped on a corner will get out of joint. 

This is whats left of a pine dovetail super also made in 1979:









I just made Jumbo depth boxes out of 1X10 old growth, tight grain redwood with rabbited joints, glued and screwed, and they will last a life time. 

I made western covers out of pithy soft cedar that rotted after three years.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Wood magazine issue 181 on the torture test of joints (page 68) shows that the rabbet has a pull apart strength of 1329 lbs and shear strength of 73 lbs (with 3 nails). Box joint 2019 LBS, shear 84 lbs (no nails recommends number 18 brads for the edges of the fingers). The locking miter came in at a respectable 1899 lbs pull apart and 141lbs for shear. (I just got the Wood magazine first 200 magazines on CD and just thought I would brag).:applause:


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

The definative answer to this continuing question may vey well be in these last two posts. 

minz...puts forth data, from a controlled test. For test data to be validated, they must be able to be duplicated. If they are duplicated they have validity. Thanks minz. I had never seen this test data, and, it is good to know.

notice odfrank's remarks about the types and quality of the wood you are using. Even the same wood, fir, cedar, pine, will have tremendous variations depending on quality of wood, moisture content, etc.

Looks like we got sidetracked again and I think we have lost sight of the original question on this thread. WI-beek wanted to know if those who make boxes would sell them if they were rabbet jointed, and if you were buying would you buy boxes with rabbet joints.

I sold rabbet jointed boxes for years, but, I assembled them before sale. I changed about three years ago to box joints. Would I sell them, yes I did. Would I buy them, yes if properly constructed. 

I fall back on the saying i have posted many times, with good wood, cut correctly, and adequate glue and nails,... any joint, rabbet, box, dove tail, butt, and some preservative, paint, stain, wax/resin dip, etc, will outlive the beekeeper. 

cchoganjr


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

Thanks for the last two posts. I do not see glue on those joints in that data. I would have no faith in a rabbet joint box without glue myself.

I guess, the answer for my question about selling these boxes is really to be answered by the customer. I will offer it, they can decide if they are worth it. I dont plan on selling a lot, just to have a few hives available for customers in spring who ask for them when they order nucleus colonies. I might as well make some extra change on the sale of wooden ware too! I cant keep up with my own wooden ware needs in the summer because I dont have a heated wood shop in the winter which I hope to have solved by fall. Next season I hope to have all my wooden ware finished so come spring, I can just focus on beekeeping, lol!


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm hardly surprised that unpainted pine rotted faster than unpainted fir, as douglas fir in particular is much more rot resistant.

Properly painted, there is zero exposure of end grain to water -- if those pine boxes had been kept painted and dry, likely they would still look brand new other than the propolis inside.

To answer the original question, no I would not make nor buy rabbeted boxes, but if others want them, that's fine by me. 

Peter


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

A good box starts even before you choose a joint. It starts with the selection of the board. Better bards are not that hard to pick you just need to know what to look for.

First the obvious. nice sold boards with few if any knots and even if there are some you want them tight and not falling out of the board. Nearly everyone knows to sight down the board fro any warping etc. and yes this is important. IT is also important that the grain of the wood is constant at east far enough for you to get a side or end of a box from. Tighter grain is also indication of a slower growing more solid wood fiber that will withstand weathering longer.

Now look at the end of the board. What does the end grain look like. Most people that have ever worked with wood and seen end grain will think of the typical smile ( curve of the growth rings. This is probably the most common end grain. It is also exactly what you do not want. This is what will case you to sort through piles of lumber to select only a few boards. You do not want to see that smile you want the grain to run as straight through the width of the board as possible or see the rings running from front to back of the board. but you do not want to see much curve in that end grain. This curve of the end grain is the stuff that will cause gaps in your corners.

Now that you have gone to all that trouble to find curveless grain boards. don't mess it up by putting the pieces together backwards. as the wood warps any cure in that grain is going to want to straighten out. that is how you know which way the board will warp. Put the pieces of your box together so that when the wood warps the edges push toward each other. The center of the board cannot pull away nearly as easily as the edges can. and if the edges do nothing put push themselves together even harder you can completely avoid gaps at the corner of your boxes no matter what joint you use. This simple bit of attention to how your pieces go together will probably do more for the quality of hive you make than any other.

The joint you select has more to do with how you will use the box and what you expect it to tolerate. a but joint is not asking much more of a box than assign it to stay in a square or rectangular shape. At least generally. A lap joint is not asking a lot more. it gives a little more support and little more glue surface it also helps the box stay square. but it is not a joint meant to withstand holding together under heavy loads. 90 lbs of honey per box is a heavy load.

The joint found in the finest boxes made are dovetails. the finger joint is considered a simplified version of a dovetail and is often used in fine boxes do to it's appearance as well as strength and reliability. There is an addition to a finger joint that makes it like steel. I have never heard it mentioned on this group before. but it is a pinned finger joint. At least that is what the person that told me about it called it. I short make a box with finger joints. assemble it and then drill down through the fingers and place a metal pin through that hole. This makes a metal rod holding the fingers from puling apart. I have always pined the corners of my boxes and never really thought to mention it before. I simply use a finish nail that passes through at least the first three fingers of every corner. The wood can split it can even break but that corner will not come apart.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Would you buy rabbet jointed beehive boxes for your operation?

No.

Crazy Roland


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

To answer the original question. Would I buy wooden ware with rabbet joints? NO not if what I was shopping for was wooden ware. if it was a nuc and what I was buying was bees I would not give it much thought. If I where buying bees from someone and they told me they also offered wooden ware it would loose the sale to find it did not have finger joints.

It is expensive to make a good finger joint and I can do it. So basically I have put my money into the issue already. This probably means I have my mind made up a little more than most. But no I woudl not use rabbet joints and more than I will use cardboard nuc boxes. It all has to do with a standard I expect of myself. Going with a easy box to make is one sign of what sort of choices have been made in every other part of a bee operation. Excellence is in the details.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I bought select cypress hive bodies this Spring from Rossman's and they have rabbet joints. I used a mixture of Thompson's water seal and linseed oil on the entire hive body. The bees don't mind it one bit and soaking the end grain should reduce cupping and rot over time. 1300 pounds of strength is fine for my 8 frame deeps.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Daniel Y said:


> But no I woudl not use rabbet joints and more than I will use cardboard nuc boxes. It all has to do with a standard I expect of myself. Going with a easy box to make is one sign of what sort of choices have been made in every other part of a bee operation. Excellence is in the details.


Let's not over analyze and make such broad statements. I've gone with an easy box (rabbet joints) at times when I didn't have enough equipment on hand and time was of the essence. That is no reflection of what I prefer (box joints, what most of my boxes have) or how I approach all other things in my life. "Excellence is in the details." Yes it is, but where we choose to apply those details makes all the difference.

As much as I'm a fan of box joints, rabbet joints done well will work just as well for this non-commercial beekeeper.


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## All About Bees (Jun 4, 2012)

We make our own as well. We went with rabbets and Titebond, then nailed with the brad gun. But as a final step we purchased some metal drywall corners, cut them to length and nailed them to each corner. They are inexpensive and helped stiffen the joints. It seems to be helping with the corner collapse from hive tool insertion too. We also cut some longer so they interlock with the box under it, but this has had mixed results.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

I find that if you screw and glue, they will last, if treated with care.


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## thebead (Oct 8, 2011)

Just as a point of interest: 
About 3 years ago, the magazine Fine Wood Working, did a thorough test of various joints using modern adhesives.

The strongest joint for joining wood at right angles was a Splined Miter joint. Don't recall how many splines for a given joint length, but it was very few. I think the splines were around 1/8" thick. One advantage is No end grain is exposed.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I would be interested in knowing how the weakest joint ( a Butt joint) held with one of the best epoxies (West System ) would have compared.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

thebead said:


> Fine Wood Working,


I doubt anything in FWW is made to be outside enduring the elements. Their joints are used in . . . fine woodworking, not rough woodworking. Was a box joint even one they tested?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I really feel that people are overthinking their joints. Unless you are a migratory keeper, moving constantly, banging and dropping with forklifts, any joint, including the butt joint, with good wood, properly nailed or screwed, with good quality glue, and some sort of preservative, (paint, stain, wax dip every three or four years,) will outlive the beekeeper. 

Lots of joints are nice, pretty, easy to make, easy to assemble, and if that is your thing, then go for it. There is a lot to be said for pride in workmanship. But, if keeping bees/ making honey, is your primary thing, don't worry about the joints. They will still be there, when you are gone.

cchoganjr


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

True, they will last your life time, but my son finds woodenware painted his Great Great Grandfather's colors(from the 1920's).
It all depends how long you want them to last.

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

odfrank said:


> I made both kinds in the late '70s and rot has been the determining factor in how long a box lasted. These fir rabbited supers have out lasted pine dovetailed supers.....


Frank that is testimonial enough for me.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Come on Cleo, have you found a thread here yet where we don’t argue some sort of minutia in a fun sort of way? Yes it is all practical but we do honestly get pretty anal. 
Wood Magazine issue 190 tested exterior glues in a half lap joint. They tested type 2, Type 3, Epoxy and Poly glues. Stuck them on the roof for 9 months and found that... yes Cleo was correct, they all did better than the wood. 
“Type-3 adhesive rivals the epoxy’s
strength in both types of outdoor joints
without the mixing mess.”
And type 2 “Although type-2 glue
isn’t marketed as waterproof, outdoor
half-lap joints made with it proved as
strong as joints bonded with type-3”
Epoxy” Conclusion: Epoxy proved stronger
than the wood in all but one outdoor
half-lap. Use it for outdoor projects with
less-than-perfect joints or for joining
unlike materials.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Roland... You said the majic words.... "Great Great Grandfather's colors" Colors indicate preservative, PAINT. (I would also suspect good wood back then) 

It isn't the joint that is making them last generations. And here is where people keep going astray. First, and foremost good wood, good glue, nails (or screws) and preservative. There are other variables far more important than the joint that determines how long your box lasts.

cchoganjr.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

minz...I didn't realize we were arguing. And I always absolutely respect anyone's opinion on any subject.

The original question was, "what do you think of the rabbet joint an acceptable joint for bee boxes." Then later "Would you buy or sell a box with a rabbet joint" 

My thought on this subject was, we are giving the "JOINT" to much credit for the life of a box, Other variables are equal to or far more important.

If I have offended anyone I apologize, and I will withdraw.

cchoganjr


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

You know, Cleo keeps mentioning that boxes will outlive the beekeeper, but I've never heard from a beekeeper whose boxes outlived him!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Very true Solomon, but, Rolan said his great great grandson is still using the equipment that outlived the great great grandfather.

cchoganjr


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

I disagree that beehive box joint quality are minute details. I hate my butt joints and I guarantee they will be culled in less than ten years due to weakening joints, water working in them and then rot or a slip and collapse of the box.

Wood quality is obviously not as good as the old growth wood that was around in previous generations or even 30-40 years ago. I dont think many boxes made today will be around 60-70 years from now. From what a local commercial beek told me, many boxes dont make it ten years now. 


Anyway, box joints are certainly worth mention and attention in every beekeepers operation as far as I am conserned.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

One of the reasons I switched to making my own rabbeted corner boxes was I did a little comparative analysis between those and box joints. Here's what I found.

Box joints are excellent if you're using nails because they square up easily and stay together even if you can see light through the joint. But I don't use nails, I use screws.

Box joints don't work nearly as well if you intend to glue the joint. Sliding surfaces wipe glue off.

Fully half of the endgrain of each board is exposed on a box joint while only half of the endgrain is exposed on one board of the joint in a rabbeted joint.

The rabbet offers much more strength and support to the finger that sticks out at the end of the frame rest on the end board of the box. It's that little 3/8" by 3/4" finger left over. On the first batch of boxes I bought nine years ago, so many of them were cracking and breaking during assembly that I ended up not even nailing them. Nine years later, that is the primary source of unfixable damage on those boxes. I can trim deeps down to mediums, but there's not much that can be done to that upper corner. On a rabbeted joint, that piece is contiguous with the rest of the rabbet giving it more support.

Rabbets can be made with a single table saw with a single blade in two cuts with no extra tools, and only half the boards even need that cut, the other half are simply cut to length. Unless you have a haunching machine, a box joint is going to set you back more than a dozen cuts per board with a dado blade and an indexing setup. 

Furthermore, if you mess up on a box joint, it may not fit together at all. With a rabbet, you can either cut it a little further, or leave a gap during assembly assuming you got the depth right.

Anyway, that's what I found when I sat down and thought about this for a while. Since then, I've made about two dozen boxes since then. The first ten were workable, the second batch have been excellent.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Box joints do take longer to cut, but once you get a jig set up, they are pretty fast, and mine fit very nicely (although I want to re-make the jig, I bought a better blade after I set it up).

End grain exposure is only an issue if it is not sealed -- as always, unprotected soft wood will rot in no time, keep it painted and it will last decades. Same thing for glue -- if the joints fit properly, there will be enough glue in the box joint to seal it and hold it together.

My brother and I have not had any trouble so far with broken rabbets on boxes -- his are seven or eight years old so far. We also never pry on the ends, and use folded metal rests on the brood boxes.

Don't confuse joint type with wood type when discussing the life of boxes -- pine of any type, partiuclarly the softer ones, will rot rather quickly if allowed to get water saturated, while fir and most cedars and redwood will not. A more fair comparison would be to make the two types of joints either on the same box or out of the same board. 

Peter


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Cleo, I was being funny (or attempting), that was why I went from discussing anal super critical to right back to the conclusion you stated of “it does not matter”. I need to use more of the little dancing things since you cannot see the crap eating grin that I generally wear. I also think that the forces applied to the joints in all of the tests that I sited are not in the correct direction. Who would try to pull the front off a box? How could you rack a box full of frames to a pressure of 2000 lbs?
Would I buy a box with rabbet joints? If it was cheap enough. I squeeze two nickels hard enough to make a quarter.
Peter, I am making all my new gear out of hemlock and would not think of not priming it before putting two coats of paint on it. (still making my bottom boards out of cedar and I need to get on that job pretty quick.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Another point on joint strength: the typical stresses on bee boxes are prying at the corners to get them apart and the occasional dropped box (hopefully NOT full of comb and bees!). This means the main stress is racking, where on corner is lifted while the other three are stuck down or one corner hits the ground with a significant impact.

A box joint is inherently stronger under those conditions, since the pressure is transferred directly to the other boards through the "fingers" and not by the glue or nails/screws holding the boxes together. Not as much of an issue today, since we aren't using hide glue which loses strength when it absorbs water. 50 years ago, the nails were really all that held the boxes together since hide glue or urea/formaldehyde were the only options. Nailed only box joints are much better than nailed only butt or rabbet joints, but we all use glue these days.

Peter


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Solomon, I agree with everything you said. I just use box joints because all the other commercial companies use them. Ease of assembly is probably the biggest thing.

If you do mess up a box joint, it can normally be used to make a 5 frame nuc, (front and rear part) so you don't lose everything. If that won't work, you can use the piece for the bottom board. Won't lose all of it.

If you can see light through a box joint you need to adjust the index and tighten the fit. I like mine tight enough that you need a rubber hammer for a gentle tap, but, not tight enough to have to hammer it together.

I hope we have helped someone with this discussion. I think they will see that there are lots of opinions on box construction, and I suspect, most any of them will work.

Wood quality, and preservative, has to rank right up there with the joint, in determining how long a box will last. 

Whatever works for you, is what I would do.

cchoganjr


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

The persevative will probably have the greatest effect on the life of the box unless you are making them from teak or white oak o some similar extremely rot resistant wood. Keep the water out and even balsa wood last a good long time if you don't pry on it. Next would be wood quality and rot resistance, a distant third would be joint type.

Barring accidents, bee boxes have a fairly easy life other than being outside in the weather. Any joint, properly sealed to keep water out (an hence prevent rot) should be strong enough to last for years -- after all, how often does the typical beekeeper take all the frames out and pry all the boxes apart? 

Migratory boxes probably get more actual wear and tear than stationary hives.

Peter


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

psfred.. same order I would order them. No joint is any good if the wood is no good. Good wood won't last forever without paint/wax dip. Good wood, Good preservative, almost any joint, will last a long time.

cchoganjr


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

As a hobbyist, I seal all exposed endgrain with Titebond III before painting. I also take the time to run a bead of glue onto all inside corners of assemblies. The glue makes the corners practically impervious. 

I use a grey primer and then usually two coats of white. Using the grey primer helps to assure that there is a decent thickness of finish paint for protection.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

PSfred said:

Nailed only box joints are much better than nailed only butt or rabbet joints, but we all use glue these days.

I agree with the first half, but when a nailed box joint from the 40's is still serviceable, the time and effort(read mess) of glue is not necessary. Sorry, it is a profit/expense/value thing, especially if you are building 100's or 1,000's.

Crazy Roland


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

The glue makes the difference -- without glue (or using hide glue, for instance) and rabbet joints or butt joints are a problem, nowhere near a strong as a dry nailed box joint.

Modern glues like Tite-bond III make things easier. Another step, and messy for sure, but allows one to use an inherently weaker joint that is faster to make.

Peter


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Psfred wrote:

The glue makes the difference -- without glue (or using hide glue, for instance) and rabbet joints or butt joints are a problem, nowhere near a strong as a dry nailed box joint.

I will concede that point. Most of our old supers are from before the new glues, so I have no data.

Crazy Roland


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

Im real happy with how solid my rabbet joints are with titebond two. Been building boxes for 2-3 bucks, saving me some serious cash I can use for more frames and foundation which means more boxes on my hives. Hopefully I can put my boxes and frames together this winter so I can invest my time in the yard instead of in the shop next summer.


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## stevedc (Feb 24, 2012)

Daniel, thanks, and to all of you. This has been very informative.


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## thebead (Oct 8, 2011)

Appreciate this discussion!
I'm a metal worker, never done much with wood. I decided a few months ago I wanted to start making my bee wood.

A long time friend is a cabinet maker, one man shop, been making his living at it for several years. I showed him various items etc.
Since the scope of what I want to do is very narrow and production oriented, he recommended some good quality but Very basic equipment and extensive use of custom built "sleds" for accurate high production of the parts, and assembly jigs.

Regarding joints: His point was, presuming good adhesives and accurate parts, All of them were more than good, so it comes down to labor; the trade off of number of cuts, and ease of assembly.
For hive boxes, it came down to the assembly. 
His recommendation was to use splined miter joints, a very simple assembly jig and some small spring clamps. As soon as the splines are tapped in, the boxes can be removed from the jig and stacked to dry.

He recommended against using any metal fasteners at all: they take time to install, don't improve splined miter joint strength, and sometimes cause other problems. 
The last few years, he's been using splined miter joints wherever he can; he finds it to be faster and stronger than others.

So, far be it from me (ignorant and inexperienced) to be telling anybody "how it aught to be done"!!

I relay it here because it certainly flys in the face of common practice, and those of you here who ARE knowledgeble and experienced might find it interesting to experiment with.....
rB


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