# Sacbrood or...?



## pinkpantherbeekeeper (Feb 10, 2016)

So I'm not sure 100% what is going on here. We are in a dearth right now so I'm sure the bees are more stressed. Anyhow please take a look at the pictures. I am guessing Sacbrood but is it something else? The bees that are still white but uncapped, I am not sure what to make of it. I could not find the queen on inspection. There was one frame with eggs with some hatching. The rest of the frame were empty of new brood. They also had a couple of new queen cells. I'm guessing they sensed something wrong and decided to requeen.

Anyhow what is going on? If I see this in any other hives what should I do? Many thanks!


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## pinkpantherbeekeeper (Feb 10, 2016)




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## cowdoc (May 15, 2011)

Queen - You might look again. Most likely you missed the queen. 

brood in question - This is pupae that has been uncapped. Perhaps your bees are stressed and going to eat them or remove them or they are hygienic and the bees sensed varroa or some other problem, so are working to clean up the problem. This is NOT sacbrood. 

Sacbrood typically kills the larvae, and they look just like a sac of water & goo, typically with a darker end of the larva, not like formed pupae. 

There is a cell in each picture that looks like it could be European Foulbrood where the larvae are off the side and dead. The first picture has it in the center, the second has a younger larva toward the right. If that is EFB, it does not look extremely severe. 

Chris Cripps
Betterbee
Greenwich, NY


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Im going with pms on this one


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Looks like EFB. But to be 100% sure you need to send samples to the lab for testing it's free (use the dead slumped off colored larva for the sample);

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=7472

Your pictures look a lot like these;

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ease-help-ID-this-brood-disease-pics-included

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?326960-Terramycin-or


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I also suspect EFB. Although testing will confirm. I would replace the queen right away just to be on the safe side, The cost of a queen is cheep insurance.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Sometimes they just don't have the stores to raise young and this stuff happens. It's been wet a lot the last week or so too. Could be a lot of things. Check the colony's store levels and that might give you a clue.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Plenty of eggs in that second picture, queen was there recently. I'd be pms at this point.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

JRG13 said:


> Plenty of eggs in that second picture, queen was there recently. I'd be pms at this point.


Looks a lot like the negative EFB test I got back a couple years ago. When I see this now, it's typically mites. Sometimes it's just a few dead ones and they bounce back. Sometimes it's a lot and they need a mite treatment. 

Shipping a sample to Beltsville is a good first step, but you should also consider a mite treatment or at least a mite sample to see what the situation is.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

I suppose a dearth is going to cause either pms or efb to rear it's head, but the other thing to consider is that bees don't cap dead larva. Correct me if I'm wrong, but efb kills them before they're capped. If they're uncapping cells, then they are sensing something else. 

That's why i think it's mites. Less available cells for the mites to be in as I'm sure the queen has slowed down laying from the dearth and the larva are being parasitized. Look for deformed wings and or stunted/immature looking bees also. K wing is another symptom. 

Regardless, if you don't have another honey flow coming on, you need to be treating them and pull any honey.

If you really want to, and not waste any more time, just treat them for both and be done. Oav them and go to the local farm feed store and get some oxytetracycline and dust them up!


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

aunt betty said:


> Sometimes they just don't have the stores to raise young and this stuff happens. It's been wet a lot the last week or so too. Could be a lot of things. Check the colony's store levels and that might give you a clue.


One look at the picture rules that out. Half the picture is bee bread! A major problem today Is that Parasitic Mite Syndrome can resemble AFB. EFB. Sac brood, and sometimes chalk brood. Cannibalization is not evident in this case.


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## pinkpantherbeekeeper (Feb 10, 2016)

Thanks everyone!

Just a follow up to finish out the thread... I do believe I have a fairly high load of mites. I really need to test better to confirm (did sugar shake but wasn't impressed with results or method). I am going to start OAV this weekend. 

I also treated the EFB with Terramycin. WOW! They were doing better by leaps and bounds within five days. Obviously there may be other factors involved, but I do have to say the change is amazing. Just a guess from other readings, the mite load may have weakened them to be more susceptible / stressed to allow the EFB to take hold. So I am going to finish out the treatment of Terramycin and hopefully kill the blood sucking mites.

_Edit: Should say I am going to kill the blood sucking mites with OAV this weekend. lol_


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## cowdoc (May 15, 2011)

pinkpantherbeekeeper said:


> _Edit: Should say I am going to kill the blood sucking mites with OAV this weekend. lol_


Glad to hear you say the OAV was going to be used to kill the mites. Oxytetracycline (Terramycin) is an antibiotic that is used to kill bacteria like EFB, not mites nor viruses. 

The antibiotic regulations are changing in January. This medication will no longer be available over the counter and will require a veterinary prescription or Veterinary feed directive in order to obtain it. How are people going to deal with that change? 

Chris Cripps
[email protected]
Greenwich, NY


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>I also treated the EFB with Terramycin. WOW! They were doing better by leaps and bounds within five days.

There is a lot of EFB going around and most of it gets blamed on bad queens or mites. And once in a while sac brood which so far has always turned out to be EFB. Your Terramycin treatment confirms it, as it only works on AFB or EFB.

Mites do make everything worse, but mites are not associated with EFB, AFB, sac brood or caulk brood. Often EFB hives have low mite counts, post your mite treatment results after you treat just for curiosity. 

Keep an eye on your other hives "EFB loves company".

You also need to keep in mind about EFB clean up, Terramycin only inhibits the bacteria which can remain viable in the comb for 1.5 years. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?326960-Terramycin-or&p=1445242#post1445242

Glad your hive is doing better!


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

cowdoc said:


> Glad to hear you say the OAV was going to be used to kill the mites. Oxytetracycline (Terramycin) is an antibiotic that is used to kill bacteria like EFB, not mites nor viruses.
> 
> The antibiotic regulations are changing in January. This medication will no longer be available over the counter and will require a veterinary prescription or Veterinary feed directive in order to obtain it. How are people going to deal with that change?
> 
> ...


Yea. Good question.


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