# Dr. Wyatt Mangum top bar hive plans



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Doesn't his book give you all the measurements that you need? I'm at work and can't look at my book right now, but if memory serves correctly, he gives all the angles, lengths, etc. What I don't remember is his topbar measurement. I would highly recommend the 19" standard Lang length. I get my kit from Beeline Apiaries and woodenware and really like the fact that I can use the 5 frame Lang nucs in a pinch to make more splits to sell. My bars can also be cut down to fit smaller hives that are 16 or 17" in length.


----------



## Cub Creek Bees (Feb 16, 2015)

Ruthie's right on the 19". Bottoms are 1x10, sides 1x12 pine shelving, bars are ripped from the same. Look on his website, you'll see what he's doing. It's not rocket surgery. 

Be careful of the big boys in outyards. They are way more hands on than Langs when the flow is on. The book is well worth the money for the management techniques. Heck I'd get another copy just to support the work he's doing.


----------



## MartinW (Feb 28, 2015)

- Anyone have detailed plans for this TBH? 

A description of his hive system are in his book, Top-Bar Hive Beekeeping: Wisdom & Pleasure Combined.

This book is great. I made two 5' hive bodies, two 3' hive bodies, and two 1' NUCs all with tools I had at home and from lumber I purchased with a gift card. I modified the entrance to have fewer moving parts to manage during the winter.

I'm a new beekeeper and use the book as a reference and operational guide for my new apiary. Highly recommended!

Good luck.


----------



## BobRagsdale (Nov 23, 2014)

I have created a spreadsheet here that gives you the dimensions of Mangum, Chandler and Bush hive designs, and compares the interior volume of each for different lengths. 

Some people recommend a three foot hive, other four feet, etc., but the one thing they all have in common is an interior volume of between 72 (Mangum) to 80 (Chandler) liters. You can also enter in custom dimensions and get the results. 

I personally run three foot or three and a half foot Mangums. My bees have never taken advantage of all of the space in a four foot Mangum.


----------



## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Thanks, Bob. This is a great way to compare volume. My 4' hives have more than the other three on the spreadsheet (98 liters), but unlike yours, my bees do use the entire space. I split a hive this spring and just took two bars of honey from it so they don't run out of space.


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

Clayton,

I understand being the sort to just get a few details and being able to work on things. I love to extract information and go. But, my 2 cents, order the book. I didn't want to spend the money as things are tight here, but I consider it a GREAT investment. And, he ships it quickly. What I love about his approach is the sense it makes, but he too has been in tight budgetary constraints and finds VERY economical solutions to every aspect of his bee keeping.

And if you have a table saw and are handy at all, you can make the top bars more cheaply from 2x4's than splitting 1x, but it is more work. I ran the 2x's through the saw and make them 1-3/8's x 3-1/2". Then I set my saw at 3/4" and ran them through. I get 20 bars per 2x. A 2x is running $2.75 at Lowe's right now, so each top bar is about $0.14-$0.15 after tax. 1x12's are crazy expensive here. No way I'm going to rip them down for top bars. YMMV.

Bob,

I would love to hear more about your experience with your Mangums. I'm prepping to build a bunch of 4's and some 5 and 3's (have a bunch of reclaimed 8' boards) but am curious about what you say about bees not using the space. I wonder if I should just make 2 3footers and a 2 foot nuc/swarm trap out of each set of boards instead? Or it could be a 3 foot and a 1 ft nuc from one board.

What is your weather like there? I'm in SW MO, lots of pasture and trees. I currently have 2 biobees (Chandler) have made. A 4 and a 5+ (on the recommendation of my mentor).


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I do have the book on order Just need to get the hive going fast, as I make a pass for lang nucs on Tuesday when cells will be ready. I have tons of woodworking equipment as I built much of my own lang hives over 20+ years of beekeeping. 1x 12 boards I can get for .89 per ft. not sure how good that is these days as I don't normally buy those. The local lumber yards gives away pallets all the time I can strip the wood from those and make free top bars. 2x's is my next option. Don't worry I keep things as economical as possible. I use unlimited brood nest in my lang hives (3 deep brood chambers). I'm figuring the 5' Mangum TBH will be the best fit for my bees and the way I manage things.


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

Awesome that you have the book on order. You'll see it probably the day you need it! 

Wish I had tons of woodworking equipment. I have some decent stuff and love working with wood. Great on the pallets (thought of that, but wondering if the wood is thick enough for a good top bar, but free is good!)

Unlimited brood in your langs? As in you put in tons of comb and let them go at it? Still learning here.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the 5'. Due to getting large, booming hives?

Feel free to PM if you don't want to muddy the waters here. In fact, I'll send you one just in case so you have my contact. Be sure and check it. 

Thanks!


----------



## BobRagsdale (Nov 23, 2014)

jamman said:


> Bob, I would love to hear more about your experience with your Mangums


I really like the Mangum design overall. It has the largest comb surface area of Mangum, Chandler and Bush designs, which means you get more volume out of a shorter hive which for me translates to fewer bars to manipulate for the same volume. Honestly though, I don't think the bees care at all - they will live most anyplace that you give them that is suitable. Oh, and I live in Northern Virginia - it is pretty warm and humid most of the summer, and pretty cold and snowy in the winter.

I have Mangum designs of varying lengths. I have a couple of 18 inch long nucs. Each have entrances at both ends with slides over them so I can use it as a single 11 bar nuc with one hole closed, or as two smaller 5 bar nucs with a divider board and both ends open. 

My magic length is 3 feet 6 inches - it just works for my bees. I prefer longer hives to shorter ones (so I also use 4 footers with follower boards). If it is longer I have room to expand when the bees need it. If it is too short then I have to split or remove honey etc. if the bees outgrow it. The reality is that my bees tend to want to swarm when they hit about 3 feet of completed bars. It doesn't seem to matter if I have a longer hive, if I open the brood nest, etc. At about 3 feet I guess they just get tired of walking to the back and say heck, let's swarm. So I like 3 feet six inches because that is about as far as mine build, and it gives me just enough room to fit a feeder in the back.


----------



## BobRagsdale (Nov 23, 2014)

jamman said:


> I currently have 2 biobees (Chandler) have made. A 4 and a 5+


Those sound like great lengths. It seems that when discussing lengths of hives the one factor that is often overlooked is the actual volume of the hive. A four foot chandler has about 86 liters of volume whereas a 4 foot Mangum is nearly 96 - ten liters more volume (nearly three gallons).

Mangum's three footers (which is the primary recommendation in his book) have about 72 liters of volume. I believe that Chandler actually recommends 44 inch sides yielding a hive of 80 liters. Bush's recommended length is 4 feet and based on his design that will yield just over 74 liters.

So it appears that a volume in the neighborhood of 72 to 80 liters may be optimal. That may be why I never get a four footer Mangum design filled - it has 96 liters of volume whereas my 3.5 footer has 84.

For reference, a Single Langstroth 10 Frame Deep is 53 Liters. A medium is 36.5 Liters. A Super is 31.4 Liters. So most of these top bar designs are roughly equivalent to a single deep and super combo.

I always find myself referring back to the Top Bar Hive Volume Comparison Tool I built when I am playing with new designs.


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

Thanks for the response. I hate to thread hijack, but this is great. I know what you mean on the volume. I did the numbers to come up with volume per lineal inch of each design so I could compare volumes as I looked at lengths. I really started that when I started looking at swarm boxes to try trap my bees, which I will try much, much harder next year. I plan to try and move to an all trapped or reproduced from trapped/feral stock.

In your opinion, his 3 ft recommendation, was that based more on use of them for pollination or overall honey/wax production? I don't have enough experience yet to have a full opinion about the application. But in reading it, it seemed to be his overriding focus, so I was left a little uncertain.

But one thing about it, I have settled on using his design. I was concerned about matching my mentor and others, but they will just have to cut comb if they get some from me, and my bars will be able to drop into a lang, if needed.

What has been your experience (no right or wrong answer) with the end entrances on your Mangum TBH's? I'd love to line these up better in the apiary and make better use of the shade.

Thanks


----------



## BobRagsdale (Nov 23, 2014)

jamman said:


> In your opinion, his 3 ft recommendation, was that based more on use of them for pollination or overall honey/wax production?


I believe he uses 2 foot hives for pollination. I read it that 3 were for more general honey production. 



jamman said:


> ...and my bars will be able to drop into a lang, if needed.


Yes, I really like the 19 inch bars. I have split from the TBH straight into a Lang using them.



jamman said:


> What has been your experience (no right or wrong answer) with the end entrances on your Mangum TBH's?


I like the end entrances. I have not tried side entrances. With end entrances the bees naturally store pollen at the front, then the brood nest, then the honey (moving front to back). Having the combs perpendicular to the entrances is known as "Warm Way" as the wind from the entrances gets stopped by the first comb. With entrances at the side, at the ends of the comb (Cold Way), the wind can blow between the combs. US Langstroth hives are generally set up Cold Way (although I have mine set up Warm Way). British National Hives are set up warm way. 

I would think that if one were to use side entrances that it would still be a good idea to have them towards one end. If they were in the middle of the hive at the side, I would be concerned that the brood nest would be where the entrances were and honey would be stored on either side. In the winter I would imagine that configuration could become an issue if the bees ended up eating half the honey and not being able to get to the other half.

Mangum's design has six 1" diameter holes. I have several hives with that configuration and they work but I have to block some off when the hive is small and weak to ensure they don't get robbed. The bees tend to block off the top entrances with Propolis by themselves in the winter.

I like Mike Bush's idea of just pulling the top bar back from the front a bit. That way they don't have any opportunity to adhere the first comb to the front of the hive and it gives good ventilation.

Most recently I have not been drilling holes (because I am lazy) and have been cutting the end panel short to leave a small 3/8 inch gap at the bottom - creating a wide bottom entrance. In the summer, when I want more ventilation, I move the top bar back per Mike Bush's design. I really like this setup. It is less work to make and seems to function well. You could also, if you made that gap at the bottom a little taller, use an entrance feeder.


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

Well, isn't this interesting.

Hive number 1 for me was built 5'4" long (the length of boards I had) and all holes (7/8") are on one side. I put a hole at each end and 3 in the middle with 3" in between them. I made a follower board for it. I have it at about 1/2 way. I am using the in hive feeder that Mangum describes in his book.

Hive number 2 is 4' long. I was torn on whether to go with side holes or not. So I didn't. I had read about the top entrance as well. One of the boards (reclaimed) had a 1/2" by 1-1/4" notch 2" or so from the end. So I just put it down there to have a bit of a bottom entrance. But I then started my TB's back about 3/8" from the front board so that it creates a 3/8" x 17ish" opening. I flipped a TB over and reduced that down to about 2-3" in length for a while during a weak stage for my hive and I was afraid they may have had the neighboring hive exploring the idea of robbing them. We are blowing and going right now, raised a new queen (whole different story, lots of newbie learning, and I actually found her and saw her today!) so I removed my TB the other day (needed it to expand the hive) and they have the full top at 3/8" as an entrance. I have a board screwed to the corrugated tin cover, and I usually overlap that over the slot entrance to make it even more secure for them to defend. I moved up an older comb from the cutout that has pollen and honey in it w/ no brood and put it right at the entrance. I figured the girls would move the honey if they saw fit.

I have to say, I've been liking it a lot. I can reduce it down instantly while the bees still know where to go. It also doesn't put holes in all that beautiful wood. Since I'm still learning, I hate to ruin any woodenware.

I'm torn on whether to put in that bottom slot or just leave this thing basic and rely only on the top bar entrance/slot. I'm leaning that way as I can modify and introduce those holes later. It would speed construction and leave options for later on.

My hives are ugly, but I need to get some more photos in here to show what I have done. I can certainly use input and guidance.

And you are going 19" overall bar length, but 17.5" interior width, right? Using comb guide? I've been running 3 small popsicles glued into saw kerf w only about 3/16" exposed, max. I don't want foundation.

PS. If I want to mark that queen, I've read I could use a grass stem as the paintbrush. Did I read right that you could get model paint, as in model plane/car paint? And being '15, that would be a blue. Just thought it would be nice to find her more easily later.


----------



## BobRagsdale (Nov 23, 2014)

jamman said:


> My hives are ugly


Ugly hives rock.



jamman said:


> And you are going 19" overall bar length, but 17.5" interior width, right? Using comb guide?


Yes. 19" bars. For an empty hive/new hive I prefer a strip of foundation but I often make guides from whatever is at hand, generally a triangular wedge. If I am inserting a bar between two already drawn bars I sometimes just use a bar with no guide, or whatever bar I have available.


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

Did we lose Clint? Hey bud, come back! Let's get you up and running!

So, let me ask you..

When you build yours, are you making the bottom 9-1/4" and then the top is 17.5", but did you take that 17.5" as the exterior measurement for the box and then that makes the interior upper size to be around 15ish inches? He says 9" on the bottom, but uses a 1x10 for the bottom, which is actually 9-1/4", so I don't know how literally to take his instructions.

3ft Mangums would be on the order of 4ft Chandlers, so that should work for me. I want to expand the number of colonies around here.

I may have to try the wedge top bars. I just don't want foundation. I've read the suggestion of wax lines, waxed threads, popsicles, etc. To get up and running, I went with the glued popsicles. But the wedge may be better down the line.

Ever use plywood for the bottom of your TBH's instead of another expensive 1x10"? I can get some 5/8" very cheaply ($10) and with that can make 9-1/4" wide bottoms for about a 10 3 fters and 5 2 fters.


----------



## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

.
Whenever considering designs - of anything - I always think it's a good move to try and identify the original source, as that's often where key bits of information can be found. In the case of the KTBH, one paper written in 'the early days' was "Beehive Designs for the Tropics" by a guy named Townsend.

There's a re-vamped copy (which I don't much like the layout of) available online at:
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/members.ec...AF1A67E20/Beehive_Designs_for_the_Tropics.pdf

Imo, the earlier version of the paper (there must still be copies floating around, 'cause I have one) is easier to read.

A couple of other points which may be relevant to this thread:
The only reason Phil Chandler chose 17" as the length of his Top Bars, is that this is the length of our (UK) National Beehive frame top bars - so it makes transferring combs from Nationals into KTBH's that little bit easier - or pre-drawing combs between frames in a National hive which is the method I chose when playing with TB hives.

Unless you plan on keeping your hives static, I'd keep them on the short side - so that they can be carried (empty !) by just one person - keep just one colony in each, and increase the volume by making them square and deeper. This is the approach I took with my (several dozen) production hives - which are built from 1.5" scaffold boards and which morphed over several years of trials into a 32" long, 9" deep square box, taking 20 National Deep (foundationless) frames.
In one configuration, 3 x 6-frame supers fit over the box, and in another, 3 thin dividers separate the box into 4 x 5-frame nucs for over-wintering. Depends on what they're being used for.

Imo, Long Hives provide a very flexible format. Make them with legs if static, with separate stands if not. With stands, always flair the legs out across the shortest dimension to provide the maximum stability. I build my boxes from condemned scaffold boards and pallet wood, for almost no money at all. The only feature I am obsessional about is the telescoping roofs - these HAVE to be 100% weather-tight for use in this country. I also fit bottom ventilation mesh which enables me to 'lock-down' the hives during the night, prior to 'spraying days' or to break any cycle of robbing. 

Have fun building your hives - but try not to get too 'religious' about any one design - bees don't care about shape, size or configuration - they're very adaptable creatures.
LJ


----------



## BobRagsdale (Nov 23, 2014)

jamman said:


> When you build yours, are you making the bottom 9-1/4" and then the top is 17.5", but did you take that 17.5" as the exterior measurement for the box .


Yes, exterior measurements based on my reading of the book.



jamman said:


> I went with the glued popsicles. But the wedge may be better down the line.


Popsicle sticks sound like a good option. I have guides like that too and they have worked well for me.


----------



## Michigander (Jul 31, 2014)

My TBHs are based on Dr. Wyatt Mangum's design with some minor differences. I use a miter saw at 22.5 degrees to get the angles which is ends up similar to his design. Also have width at 18" instead of 17.5 to get the bottom sized right based on that angle. Keep in mind that a longer hive is more difficult to move if you need to while a shorter hive will require closer management as they fill up. I have several difference lengths but it is important that the width/height is consistent to have interchangeable comb. My entrances are a 3/8s slit cut about 1" from top going most of the width (two holes drilled and then joined together by a jig saw). Put robber screens on new this year because I felt robbing in last late summer/fall really damaged my smaller splits. I was planning to leave them on over winter. I'll see how it goes. Continuing to learn.

I do like his book and it makes a good reference during the summer and a good winter read when cooped up and wanting to be into the bees.


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

LittleJohn,

You have good points. I wasn't sure about the origin of the 17", just knew it was a bit weird. The only reason I've tried to use that is because the other TBH keepers in the area use the Chandler type design. I was concerned about interchangeability with them. I'm a bit over that now. I figure that if they need something from my hives, they can trim it down, and if I need it from them, I can just wire their bar to one of mine.

I wish I had a supply of scaffold boards to work from! I understand what you mean in using those and going square. I've thought of that as well. I may switch to it at a later time. I have the great situation that I can keep my hives where I can back right up to them, so they will load right into the back of the truck. But that is part of the attraction of the Mangum, greater volume. The squarer long hive is interesting for that same reason, though I've been a bit concerned with the comb attachment/greater weight. But I'm a newbie, what do I know.

Michigander,

I love your thought process. I'm going to lay that out and see what I think. Are you saying that the bottom is still 9-1/4" and then have the top outer width at 18" and that gives you 22.5deg sides w/1x12's?

This has been a great discussion on TBH and on Mangums. I think we should keep it going or get a sub forum. I'm really liking the top entrance on my one hive and no drilled or cut holes. I was thinking of doing something that puts 3/8" screen over that opening as a mouseguard and leave it on at all times, and then move a board on it to reduce it or open it all the way. Maybe shape the wire like Z channel and staple it to the front to secure it. Not sure, still working it out. I am using the tin roof for simplicity.

Does Mangum ever end up on any forums? He'd benefit from setting one up for himself and his book.


----------

