# TN - Several cases of American Foulbrood were discovered



## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

Thanks for posting this.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Heads up, New York beekeepers who are opposing the proposed new law - this is what we could have, too. If only we had a well-accepted, mandatory registration system.

A registration system is the essential underpinning of a fast and efficient disease outbreak notification system. 

Without such a dual-purpose system, beekeepers will be unknowingly spreading problems like this around, maybe to a yard right next door to yours.

Sure there have historically been problems with NY's Bee Inspection program. Fix those problems, don't reject a valuable tool just because it had problems in the past. 

I'm registered, are you? If not, why not?


Nancy


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Zombie flies reported in Wilson county , Apocephalus borealis.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

With all the new beekeepers EF has gotten to be a real headache.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

enjambres said:


> Heads up, New York beekeepers who are opposing the proposed new law - this is what we could have, too. If only we had a well-accepted, mandatory registration system.
> 
> A registration system is the essential underpinning of a fast and efficient disease outbreak notification system.
> 
> ...


Getting rid of the problems is not that easy.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Getting rid of the problems is not that easy.


Getting rid of all the problems government cause is even harder.

In the message issued by government, I was sort of okay up until the part where they got heavy handed and threaten financial penalty to those who move bees without a health certificate. I don't keep bees in Tennessee, but I do know beekeepers like moving hives around to catch different flows that can be happening here or there. Now there happens to be 177 such locations by the government's admission situated in the same county as where the AFB hives were detected. They likely have one or two at most inspectors, but I do not know for sure. Someone else in the know can confirm one way or the other. 

Beekeeping is a highly opportunistic occupation in the sense that flowers only come but once a year for a particular plant. Those flowers are coming now or soon, or they will end soon, therefore beekeepers will be wanting to move their hives to take advantage of flows. If 10 beekeepers fromthose 177 registered sites happen to want to move their colonies this week or next that will likely be stretching the limits of a part time inpector. If 15 people request an inspection it is likely that the inspector will not be able to handle the workload. If you happen to call the inspector after the overload point, you are plain Jane out of luck, he/she cannot come to inspect your colonies... no time/no budget no something. At that point the beekeeper has been forced into a corner, either move the bees without a health certificate and potentially face a $500 fine or miss out on a yearly 3 week event (typical length of a flow). I think something is wrong with that scenario. 

I predict that soon someone will confirm my hypothetical situation with their real life experience. Give it a week or two at most. Given that the alarm bells have been ringing loud and clear from the government, many of the new beekeepers will be calling to have their fears quieted by the government appointed inspector. This will likely overload the ability of the system and increase the likellyhood of beekeepershaving to make diffiult decisions. Move bees without a health certificate or a miss a flow that you are counting on and that the bees need.

Now, to all you New-York beekeepers out there, I am not here to tell you what to do, one way or the other, God forbid that you should listen to me. The only thing that could be possibly worse than that, is being told what to do by government. You know, the part where government says if you do not behave in such and such way a $500 fine could be coming your way.

What ever happened to keeping the government's role limited to education, like the part about burning hive tools between yards, calling for help if think you have AFB but are not sure, being diligent between yards with hygiene. I will concede they government got those things right,but the heavy handed $500 threat is totally uncalled for IMHO. Unfortunately for all beekeepers in Tennesse, Tennesee law does not care about my humble opinions.

You do not need to be registered to find out about a disease outbreak. I just checked on Google maps and I am 2500 plus miles away and even I know they got an AFB outbreak in Tennessee. Before people get the wrong impression, I am not Carnac the Magnificent. Oh and by the way they likely have efb, chalkbrood, nosema countless viruses, SHB, AHB, sacbrood, varroa mites, tracheal mites (do people still check?) tropilaelaps ( in the future, maybe/maybe not in my lifetime) and who knows what else in Tennessee, just like they do in the other 49 states.

Lastly, take care of your bees best you can, and take care of yourselves best you can. The second part is real important so that you'll be able to do the first part. Also you'll be able to take care of those who need you.

Jean-Marc


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

TN has plenty of inspectors, there are bee clubs and I add small bee clubs with half a dozen inspectors that are regular active members. There are a few that chase the Sourwood and Linden flow but most beekeepers are stationary. Closer to the mountains you get the more you'll find beekeepers that chase the flow. TN apiary inspectors in general aren't so hard nosed actually most are pretty good people almost always giving you plenty of time to comply with the laws and I can honestly say I have never known a beekeeper in TN that's ever been fined. What's not being said in those areas and areas adjacent there's a commercial outfit that has been coming through that is obviously negligent leaving very large clumps of bees behind at truck stops or in other public places that are a major nuisance ( these bees are vicious ) These are in the same areas AFB and Zombie flies are being reported, coincidence maybe but I doubt it.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

jean-marc said:


> Beekeeping is a highly opportunistic occupation in the sense that flowers only come but once a year for a particular plant. Those flowers are coming now or soon, or they will end soon, therefore beekeepers will be wanting to move their hives to take advantage of flows. If 10 beekeepers fromthose 177 registered sites happen to want to move their colonies this week or next that will likely be stretching the limits of a part time inpector. If 15 people request an inspection it is likely that the inspector will not be able to handle the workload. If you happen to call the inspector after the overload point, you are plain Jane out of luck, he/she cannot come to inspect your colonies... no time/no budget no something. At that point the beekeeper has been forced into a corner, either move the bees without a health certificate and potentially face a $500 fine or miss out on a yearly 3 week event (typical length of a flow). I think something is wrong with that scenario.


So you are saying that one person's desire to move their hives outweighs the desire of all the beekeepers in their path to keep their bees healthy? No. Having inspections in light of infestation will save many beekeepers the need to destroy hives. How about the financial burden the mover puts on those that afb may be spread to? Not everyone is responsible and some will put a the profit of a three week flow above the good of the community and possibly above the good of their own hives.

Slow Drone, are there any recourses in TN to hold the commercial keeper responsible for all the loss of property due to his neglect, if his hives were found to have afb? Being in Florida, I am concerned about that very scenario. Fl requires annual inspections to help keep afb from devastating the industry. I've wondered why there aren't requirements to pack up hives after dark so commercial groups don't leave behind problems. Especially if they originate from africanized areas. I wonder what is in place to keep movers from spreading problems across states. In Fl, to move from one area to another you need to have your registration with you.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Jadeguppy said:


> So you are saying that one person's desire to move their hives outweighs the desire of all the beekeepers in their path to keep their bees healthy? No. Having inspections in light of infestation will save many beekeepers the need to destroy hives. How about the financial burden the mover puts on those that afb may be spread to? Not everyone is responsible and some will put a the profit of a three week flow above the good of the community and possibly above the good of their own hives.
> 
> Slow Drone, are there any recourses in TN to hold the commercial keeper responsible for all the loss of property due to his neglect, if his hives were found to have afb? Being in Florida, I am concerned about that very scenario. Fl requires annual inspections to help keep afb from devastating the industry. I've wondered why there aren't requirements to pack up hives after dark so commercial groups don't leave behind problems. Especially if they originate from africanized areas. I wonder what is in place to keep movers from spreading problems across states. In Fl, to move from one area to another you need to have your registration with you.


No we don't have the man power to control that. It would take much more money, regulations, and enforcement on the States part. Our state in my opinion should be using funds in more needed areas. I love bees but we have more important needs in this state than spending on beekeeping right now. Also I would rather not see the state involved but a committee and inspection company made up of beekeepers.


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## gravelroad (Feb 8, 2016)

It sucks that there is another outbreak.

Hive registration and inspections will not stop issues like this on there own. I have seen very few inspectors on YouTube that know there stuff. I have kicked inspectors off my land and filed restraining orders against them where I live because they wanted to cross contaminate my hives from where every they have been in the past.

A registration system will never work unless you have good inspections and benefits that go behind it. We need to look back at the past and look at different parts of agriculture and you will see very few systems that have worked.

Before you ask yes I do keep all my paper work up to date through the state and county I live in.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Let's not just make this about commercial guys! We have a ton of new beekeepers that don't recognize disease and let their colonies (due to being new) die and spread mites, viruses, and diseases. It is a big problem with no easy answer. 

With the track record of state and government programs I don't think throwing money at it is the answer. I think the average working man and woman pay a decent amount of taxes as it is.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Let's not just make this about commercial guys! We have a ton of new beekeepers that don't recognize disease and let their colonies (due to being new) die and spread mites, viruses, and diseases. It is a big problem with no easy answer.


Good point. An informational video on disease to watch when registering hives would be beneficial. One developed in conjunction with beekeeping organizations to address real world situations.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Let's not just make this about commercial guys! We have a ton of new beekeepers that don't recognize disease and let their colonies (due to being new) die and spread mites, viruses, and diseases. It is a big problem with no easy answer.
> 
> With the track record of state and government programs I don't think throwing money at it is the answer. I think the average working man and woman pay a decent amount of taxes as it is.


My intentions were not to trash the commercial guys I'm semi retired myself, but just to report what's been going on in that and surrounding areas. Let's not make it about hobbiest either, after all it was a hobbiest that reported the AFB. Wholeheartedly agree there really isn't an easy answer.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Jadeguppy said:


> So you are saying that one person's desire to move their hives outweighs the desire of all the beekeepers in their path to keep their bees healthy? No. Having inspections in light of infestation will save many beekeepers the need to destroy hives. How about the financial burden the mover puts on those that afb may be spread to? Not everyone is responsible and some will put a the profit of a three week flow above the good of the community and possibly above the good of their own hives.
> 
> Slow Drone, are there any recourses in TN to hold the commercial keeper responsible for all the loss of property due to his neglect, if his hives were found to have afb? Being in Florida, I am concerned about that very scenario. Fl requires annual inspections to help keep afb from devastating the industry. I've wondered why there aren't requirements to pack up hives after dark so commercial groups don't leave behind problems. Especially if they originate from africanized areas. I wonder what is in place to keep movers from spreading problems across states. In Fl, to move from one area to another you need to have your registration with you.


I don't see how someone's desire to move his bees, assuming he is competent and can correctly identify bee diseases, has anything to do with anybody elses desire to keep their bees healthy. If you know what you are doing, a piece of paper is not what makes your bees healthy or not.

As far as people being responsible, evidently some are not including the commercial beekeeper leaving bees behind at the service stations. I am pretty sure governments are not very good at mandating others into responsible behavior. I mean just look how they spend money. 

If funds are limited then best to spend them on education in my opinion. If the inspectors are reasonnable and fines are never issued then why bring up the possibility of fines. Seems like a confrontational stance to take from the beginning. I find it a big turn off and it is not a strategy I would employ when trying to have people cooperate.

Jean-Marc


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

jean-marc said:


> I don't see how someone's desire to move his bees, assuming he is competent and can correctly identify bee diseases, has anything to do with anybody elses desire to keep their bees healthy. If you know what you are doing, a piece of paper is not what makes your bees healthy or not.
> 
> As far as people being responsible, evidently some are not including the commercial beekeeper leaving bees behind at the service stations. I am pretty sure governments are not very good at mandating others into responsible behavior. I mean just look how they spend money.
> 
> ...


I see absolutely nothing wrong with containing a communicable disease in the manner the TN authorities are doing it. 

Assuming competence in perfect strangers, whether beekeepers or others, is not a strategy to employ and the reason for the rule of law. 
( BTW Licensing certain activities or professions attempts to eliminate the need to assume competence in perfect strangers- would you argue against licensed individuals or professions? like doctors, lawyers or financial advisors, pesticide applicators, etc.) 
Fines increase compliance and penalize non compliance of laws.

You say:


> Now, to all you New-York beekeepers out there, I am not here to tell you what to do, one way or the other, God forbid that you should listen to me. The only thing that could be possibly worse than that, is being told what to do by government. You know, the part where government says if you do not behave in such and such way a $500 fine could be coming your way.


Jean-Marc there is a process that seeks input from 'the people'. One can choose to be involved in that process
or not. 
Thanks for caring.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Clyderoad


> ( BTW Licensing certain activities or professions attempts to eliminate the need to assume competence in perfect strangers- would you argue against licensed individuals or professions? like doctors, lawyers or financial advisors, pesticide applicators, etc.)


No but I would argue that not everything needs a licence to do. How for do we take it. Should you have to have a license to raise a pig or cow or chicken? How about to buy a house or rent one or maybe to plant a garden. I am very glad that there are a few things that a person can do with out permission. We can recognize that people can screw up almost anything with out having to go beyond common sense and make it take permission for everything that might be done. If we want to license something like having a yard sale, would it be about control and money or would it be to protect some one?
I think the discussions like this are about what kind of world do you want to live in. Many times that depends on where you are now. 

Take what has happened to antibiotics and needing a vet. (could be a cow or pig instead) A commercial guy that has scale may not be affected by the cost of using a vet spread out over his whole operation like a guy with 20 hives might be affected if he has to pay $100 for a house call. So it depends on where you are how things effect and whether it is good or bad.

I do think there have been laws made to clamp down on competition by making start up cost too much for people to join the party. Take taxies in any big city.

My opinion is that the buyer better beware when regulations are about to be imposed someplace where there were none before. 

If somebody discovered gold and people came in and started strip mining and sending mecury down the creek, something new may have happened (the finding of gold) and a new law may be needed. For something that has not changed that much over a long period like bee keeping, there is nothing new and so what is the big motivation now to make a new law. It is worth looking at and also deciding if you like the ideal of living under what is being proposed.

I am always skeptical of governing bodies wanting something they don't have now.

They passed a law in secret to put water meters on private wells here and it was work to get it rescinded. It would have been much less work if they just did not pass it in the first place.
Cheers
gww


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

gww said:


> Clyderoad
> 
> 
> No but I would argue that not everything needs a licence to do. How for do we take it. Should you have to have a license to raise a pig or cow or chicken? How about to buy a house or rent one or maybe to plant a garden. I am very glad that there are a few things that a person can do with out permission. We can recognize that people can screw up almost anything with out having to go beyond common sense and make it take permission for everything that might be done. If we want to license something like having a yard sale, would it be about control and money or would it be to protect some one?
> ...


Not suggesting everything or everyone needs to be licensed. What I am drawing attention to is the danger of assuming competence in others. :



> I don't see how someone's desire to move his bees, assuming he is competent and can correctly identify bee diseases, has anything to do with anybody elses desire to keep their bees healthy. If you know what you are doing, a piece of paper is not what makes your bees healthy or not.


My take is that a assumed competent beekeeper, who is really a incompetent one, moves their sick AFB bees into or through the areas of others keeping bees is a detriment to the health of other peoples bees and possibly livelihoods. That beekeeper and their sick bees are a direct threat to healthy bees and should be quarantined until corrective action is taken. Saying 'I thought he knew better' after all heck has broken out is not good enough in some cases, this being one.
Furthermore, the new antibiotic law demonstrates how the actions of people once assumed competent have effected everyone, abuse of antibiotics in livestock lead to needing a vet getting involved. (And licensed vets are now entrusted with carrying out the law.) 
It seems competency is something that needs to be measured and not assumed or bestowed.


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## westtnbeekeeper (Oct 26, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> Not suggesting everything or everyone needs to be licensed. What I am drawing attention to is the danger of assuming competence in others. :
> 
> 
> My take is that a assumed competent beekeeper, who is really a incompetent one, moves their sick AFB bees into or through the areas of others keeping bees is a detriment to the health of other peoples bees and possibly livelihoods. That beekeeper and their sick bees are a direct threat to healthy bees and should be quarantined until corrective action is taken. Saying 'I thought he knew better' after all heck has broken out is not good enough in some cases, this being one.
> ...


I don't mind the presence of a regulatory authority, especially for the purpose of mitigating an impending disaster. I would hope that notification would be swift in the event that AFB is discovered in my area but alas... I am afraid the aforementioned regulatory authority is undermanned and outgunned in the event of a serious situation. The whole barrel of monkeys is dependent upon the honor system for reporting diseases and also the level of experience of the affected party. (To identify said disease.) The honor system worked for this instance. I for one would like to consider myself a competent beekeeper but I have never seen any of the foulbroods in person and hope I never do. Probly just a matter of time though. I study, I read, and I try to stay on top of things but it could be out there right now in any one of a dozen hives that I haven't been into in any depth since the supers went on. I wouldn't think it likely as they are all healthy looking active hives with what appears to be a good number of bees.

I wish there was a better way to oversee thousands of beekeepers... hobby, commercial or otherwise but I don't have any answers. Its the system we have and it depends on us for it to be successful it would seem. Not looking forward to seeing this crap around me.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

enjambres said:


> Heads up, New York beekeepers who are opposing the proposed new law - this is what we could have, too. If only we had a well-accepted, mandatory registration system.
> 
> A registration system is the essential underpinning of a fast and efficient disease outbreak notification system.
> 
> ...


note to Nancy, they have bee inspectors, note to Nancy they communicate with their local bee organizations, also remember the minutes posted on Pat's site, no new bee inspectors, and two of the two and a half are retiring . Why not do as Ohio is doing, all new beeks get a kit, designed by beekeepers, and supplied from Better Bee, and paid for by the state, that shows how to identify and test for diseases. All kinds of options other than shoving it down our throats.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> Jean-Marc there is a process that seeks input from 'the people'. One can choose to be involved in that process
> or not.
> Thanks for caring.


sounds good, could you please tell all NY beeks what the process is that gets the input from "THE PEOPLE" to the proper people?? I know we have 144 beeks in our club and not a one knows the process, and I really have this feeling that not all 144 are stupid. I submit the fiasco that just happened with the attempt at getting a bill passed in the senate and assembly to mandate registration, certain organizations told the sponsors that the beeks were all for it, and with the amount of feedback they got once the beeks found out about the bills, they even stated they had been hoodwinked. That's the second time in 11 years that has gone on in the state of NY, and the third will be coming up shortly.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

the only organization that is training the beeks to recognize diseases in the state isn't supported by the state, only beeks.

http://nybeewellness.org/ny-bee-wellness-workshop-long-island-july-27-29-2018/


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> sounds good, could you please tell all NY beeks what the process is that gets the input from "THE PEOPLE" to the proper people?? I know we have 144 beeks in our club and not a one knows the process, and I really have this feeling that not all 144 are stupid. I submit the fiasco that just happened with the attempt at getting a bill passed in the senate and assembly to mandate registration, certain organizations told the sponsors that the beeks were all for it, and with the amount of feedback they got once the beeks found out about the bills, they even stated they had been hoodwinked. That's the second time in 11 years that has gone on in the state of NY, and the third will be coming up shortly.


We have been through this before. You know the process.
I have to ask, why is there a need by the no registration camp to twist facts and just outright make stuff up?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> the only organization that is training the beeks to recognize diseases in the state isn't supported by the state, only beeks.
> 
> http://nybeewellness.org/ny-bee-wellness-workshop-long-island-july-27-29-2018/


Are you suggesting the state should and would be smart to support Beewellness.org??? WHAT? 
How is it that a organization like bwellness is so against such a simple thing like beekeeper registration to help keep our bees healthy? 

You may not be aware wildbranch and to correct the record for those that may read this, in NY Beewellness is not the only organization training beekeepers. The Dyce bee lab at Cornell University does so as well https://pollinator.cals.cornell.edu/ or facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pg/DyceLab/about/?ref=page_internal.
Training, outreach, research and more.

NY beekeepers can get trained by EAS as well or the program out of U of Montana.

So really it's 4.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> We have been through this before. You know the process.
> I have to ask, why is there a need by the no registration camp to twist facts and just outright make stuff up?


liberals have this tendency to accuse people of exactly what they are doing. there is no process to address the lack of communications in NY, it's a closed system controlled by a few large beeks. But there are attempts being made as we speak.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> liberals have this tendency to accuse people of exactly what they are doing. there is no process to address the lack of communications in NY, it's a closed system controlled by a few large beeks. But there are attempts being made as we speak.


I guess so, seems underhanded to me to accuse people of exactly what one is doing. If registration is not a good thing then just list the reasons why- point by point and explain it- no need to make up conspiracy theories or use half truths or name call or paint others as BAD people. 

The process exists and it is not a closed system, take advantage of it or not- it's your choice. Just don't make stuff up.


(Sorry for the intrusion TN beekeepers.)


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

It sounds like it comes down to having people who care enough to monitor the legislature, advocate for what they believe in, and get the word out to others. I have seen activism change proposed bills. A call in campaign can be powerful. Having contact with the Department of Agriculture will help as well. It sounds like those in favor of registration have been more active in NY than those who oppose it. Someone is proposing the ideas.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

one last post TN beeks, to answer the question raised, I always like to quote knowledgeable people. here is an entry in the ESHPA newsletter(one of many) complaining about the last time mandatory registration was passed. for anyone wanting to read the other information the fall of 08 was a very good year.

“And the Survey Says…!!!”
In an effort to gauge how ESHPA
members feel about the passage of
BILL NUMBER: A7543A, the Spring
Newsletter (Issue 85) included a
survey asking how agreeable is
“establishing a database of beekeepers,
yard locations and the number of
colonies at each location for the purpose
of conducting more effective and
efficient surveys for existing pests and
new emerging pests such as CCD.”
Editor’s note: the previous quote is
taken verbatim from the APIARY
SURVEY INFORMATION letter dated
March 7, 2008 and sent to all
beekeepers of record in New York
State, outlining “several benefits
associated with this process.”
Survey results were tabulated and
presented at the summer picnic, and
are published to the right.
Analysis: Most noteworthy of the
survey results is the number of
respondents. There was nearly a 50%
response to the survey; statistically an
average response to such surveys is
30.4%, so obviously ESHPA members
feel a need to be heard on this issue.
I’m not sure what to conclude from the
“no opinion” column other than 7
respondents have no opinion. More
interesting is an analysis of the data
across the rankings.
In the “Commercial” ranks, agree and disagree responses cancel each other out and
strongly disagree outnumbers agree by 52.6%1!
Sideliners are heavily weighted on the disagree side with a net of 13.7% disagree and
36.4% strongly disagree.
Hobbyists are mixed, with a slight leaning towards the agree side; the strongly disagree
net is 5%, balanced against a 10% net on the agree side.
Based on this analysis I conclude that the more a beekeeper considers their operation to
be an occupation, the less they are inclined to see a need for the enacted legislation.
Finally, looking strictly at the numbers without making any distinctions of
commercial/sideline/hobby rank, the overall response is not in favor of the legislation
by a margin of more than 2 to 1!
Disclaimer: As a statistician I am keenly aware that there are four kinds of lies: lies,
****ed lies, maps and statistics! It’s noteworthy that the sample size is small. Yet the
results clearly show a lack of support for the enacted legislation. This is a contrary
conclusion to what we are being told are the results of straw polls taken when the State
Apiculturist addresses local associations and beekeeping gatherings around the state. I
am at a loss to reconcile that claim with this survey’s results.
1 Commercial “Strongly Disagree” is 57.9%; subtract Commercial “Strongly Agree” of 5.3%
nets 52.6%. Subsequent figures are calculated in a similar manner.


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