# Treatment free in Wales



## moebees (Sep 29, 2016)

Interesting video and the number of treatment free beeks is remarkable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgR5FzMx_uA


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks, moebees!
Great!


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

I have a lot of time for Pete Hayward and have no doubt he speaks the truth as he sees it but his methods wouldn't work in the area in which I operate as bee density is much higher and a little more migration happens bringing in novel bees, varroa and their viruses.
Many beekeepers will fill in surveys as treatment free due to the threat of prosecution or having their honey taken off the shelves if they admit to using generic thymol or oxalic acid treatments rather than the many times more expensive licensed products.
Not wishing to rain on anyone's parade, just adding cautionary reality.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

The methods are not working in my area, too.

But it´s nice to see there are still bees able to survive on their own, in spite of the claim that they need our "beneficial" managements......


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## moebees (Sep 29, 2016)

> I have a lot of time for Pete Hayward and have no doubt he speaks the truth as he sees it but his methods wouldn't work in the area in which I operate as bee density is much higher and a little more migration happens bringing in novel bees, varroa and their viruses.


So he is not lying he is just delusional. You know his methods wouldn't work in your area based on evidence or your biased opinion?



> Many beekeepers will fill in surveys as treatment free due to the threat of prosecution or having their honey taken off the shelves if they admit to using generic thymol or oxalic acid treatments rather than the many times more expensive licensed products.


I don't know the laws in Wales or beekeeping practices for that matter but the implication from your statement is that thymol and oxalic are illegal and there is strict regulatory enforcement that might give someone pause when filling out a survey. Furthermore you imply that they are in widespread use (and you living in the area would certainly no better than me). But survey data reported in the video was published in a beekeeping journal and is apparently voluntary and was not broken down according to type of treatment. If some beeks who treat are afraid of negative repercussions (I cannot imagine how that would work. Is there some way that authorities could match a survey respondents treatment admission to lack of use of prescribed treatments?) But granting your argument why respond to the survey at all? If the option is to lie on a survey or not respond I would think most would choose the latter and perhaps that may have altered the numbers if indeed the treatment numbers are too low? Do you have an opinion as to what the accurate numbers should be?



> Not wishing to rain on anyone's parade, just adding cautionary reality.


Really? I am not having a parade but that does seem to be the intent of your post and most naysayer posts in the treatment free forum. Adding a cautionary note to any information provided in a forum is fine and helpful when solid information is provided. But what makes your cautionary statement/opinion "reality"? Because it comes out of your keyboard?


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

moebees said:


> So he is not lying he is just delusional. You know his methods wouldn't work in your area based on evidence or your biased opinion?
> 
> 
> I don't know the laws in Wales or beekeeping practices for that matter but the implication from your statement is that thymol and oxalic are illegal and there is strict regulatory enforcement that might give someone pause when filling out a survey. Furthermore you imply that they are in widespread use (and you living in the area would certainly no better than me). But survey data reported in the video was published in a beekeeping journal and is apparently voluntary and was not broken down according to type of treatment. If some beeks who treat are afraid of negative repercussions (I cannot imagine how that would work. Is there some way that authorities could match a survey respondents treatment admission to lack of use of prescribed treatments?) But granting your argument why respond to the survey at all? If the option is to lie on a survey or not respond I would think most would choose the latter and perhaps that may have altered the numbers if indeed the treatment numbers are too low? Do you have an opinion as to what the accurate numbers should be?
> ...


Oh dear. 
I know Pete quite well and I wouldn't call him delusional at all. As previously stated we live in slightly different areas, mine with more bee density, richer forage and higher crops, his in an isolated area on the lleyn peninsula. I wish I could get away without treating but unfortunately I don't seem to be able to without unacceptable losses ( despite breeding along the soft bond approach for a decade and more). This may be my biased opinion but it's a bigger sample of bees than David's and Pete's put together and a similar experience to other beekeepers in the locality.
Apiguard in sachets and oxalic in the form of apibioxal are registered varroacides and legal, generic thymol or oxalic acid not so. Beekeepers in the uk are required to keep a record of any medicines applied to their bees,(most don't bother! ) claiming Tf makes this a sinch and often follows on into form filling. 
Reality is what you make of it and believing what comes out of any body's keyboard / podcast whatever is optional.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

moebees, and Phil Heath, the reigning Mr. Olympia for the last 6 years or so say she doesn't take steroids, full natty brah.... does him saying it make it true? Sometimes there's those unsaid truth's just to make everyone feel better about whatever they're doing. Personally, I don't care, smart people figure out if it works or not really quick and make their own judgements. Kind of like with small cell claims. I never bought into it, but I figured I'd try it and see what happens. I've found mites don't really care what cell size the bees are on, they do just fine on small cell it seems to me. I've made my own conclusion on the matter by trying it and seeing the actual results, not just taking someone's word for it and preaching it as gospel which is absurd. I'm tired of both sides of the argument saying what and what will not work for everyone because there's instances of it working for someone both ways, you just need to find where you, your bees, and your location fit into the scheme of things.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

mbc, i appreciate your posts and for providing insight into the state of affairs re beekeeping in your region.

these locational differences in tf success are something we see in the u.s. as well.

specifically, do you have personal knowledge that brings the statistics reported from the survey presented in the video into question?


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> specifically, do you have personal knowledge that brings the statistics reported from the survey presented in the video into question?


The people who responded to the survey are a very small proportion of beekeepers in Wales and almost certainly weighted towards tf in comparison to the vast majority of beekeepers who didnt make the effort to respond, this is my own unsubstantiated opinion but almost certainly true.
It is part of the tf phenomena over here that as a group they tend to comprise of one or two gurus and a host of very keen new disciples who come and go with quite an alarming attrition rate. Not one of the local associations advocate tf and they're generally quite keen on teaching keeping track of varroa and keeping the levels down where necessary (almost invariably an autumn treatment regime).


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> It is part of the tf phenomena over here that as a group they tend to comprise of one or two gurus and a host of very keen new disciples who come and go with quite an alarming attrition rate.


Wow, this in the tf Forum! But it´s true sometimes.  That´s because tf beekeeping is to change managements and the path to do it not easy to go. Mostly because of people who are afraid to try something new.

I´m maybe going to be a tf "guru" myself in some years  thanks for warning me how to treat my "disciples" , I want them to stay put.


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## moebees (Sep 29, 2016)

mbc said:


> T this is my own unsubstantiated opinion but almost certainly true.


Well there you go. Now that is something you can hang your hat on!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Gurus, disciples, movements. I'm just keeping bees that kept themselves previously. I never signed a membership card. Stop the madness.

Thanks for posting Moe. Great stuff.


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## moebees (Sep 29, 2016)

JRG13 said:


> I'm tired of both sides of the argument saying what and what will not work for everyone because there's instances of it working for someone both ways, you just need to find where you, your bees, and your location fit into the scheme of things.


You say you're tired of it but then you and mbc and others come into the treatment free forum and harangue those that want to talk about treatment free. I don't get it. Why are you so bothered by people wanting to discuss treatment free if you have no interest in it? The contrary would be if I went into the diseases and pests or any forum that was discussing mite treatments and began opining about the relative efficacy of different treatments. To begin with I am not qualified but even if I were I have no interest in involving myself in those discussions. But for some reason there are bunch of people on here that seem to monitor the treatment free forum like a hawk and comment regularly even tho they profess no interest or desire for treatment free beekeeping.


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## moebees (Sep 29, 2016)

Nordak said:


> Gurus, disciples, movements. I'm just keeping bees that kept themselves previously. I never signed a membership card. Stop the madness.
> 
> Thanks for posting Moe. Great stuff.


I never imagined that posting a 7 minute youtube video on treatment free beekeeping in the treatment free beekeeping forum would draw the guns of the naysayers. Go figure.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

moebees said:


> I never imagined that posting a 7 minute youtube video on treatment free beekeeping in the treatment free beekeeping forum would draw the guns of the naysayers. Go figure.


Yeah, I hear ya.


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## moebees (Sep 29, 2016)

SiWolKe said:


> I´m maybe going to be a tf "guru" myself in some years  thanks for warning me how to treat my "disciples" , I want them to stay put.


I would bet on SiWolke becoming a tf guru! No doubt about it.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I disagree with characterizing it as "guns of the naysayers". There is always room for a good debate on the pros and cons, especially with regards to going treatment free. If you watch the video carefully, note that they rely heavily on replacement swarms. This suggests brood breaks as a significant part of their approach to treatment free beekeeping. I also noted the link conveniently placed on the video that goes to a page about a top bar hive they are promoting. I'm always leery of any educational video that seems to have an agenda.

MBC highlighted something very real. The more bees traveling into an area, the harder it is to maintain bees treatment free. I suspect this is because of horizontal transfer of mites from treated susceptible colonies. There are some alternative explanations such as having less virulent mites in a given area which makes treatment free a viable option.

Note that the above is my "opinion". I don't present it as scientific fact because it is not rigorously proven.

P.S. JRG has gone out of his way to purchase treatment free queens for the last few years attempting to get past the issues from California's massive almond pollination event. He is posting his experience so far. I'm hoping he will see some positive results next spring.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

A good one at that. She's determined enough and sharp enough to make it work. I lucked into it by comparison.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

SnickeringBear said:


> I disagree with characterizing it as "guns of the naysayers". There is always room for a good debate on the pros and cons, especially with regards to going treatment free. If you watch the video carefully, note that they rely heavily on replacement swarms. This suggests brood breaks as a significant part of their approach to treatment free beekeeping. I also noted the link conveniently placed on the video that goes to a page about a top bar hive they are promoting. I'm always leery of any educational video that seems to have an agenda.
> 
> MBC highlighted something very real. The more bees traveling into an area, the harder it is to maintain bees treatment free. I suspect this is because of horizontal transfer of mites from treated susceptible colonies. There are some alternative explanations such as having less virulent mites in a given area which makes treatment free a viable option.
> 
> Note that the above is my "opinion". I don't present it as scientific fact because it is not rigorously proven.


Sound reasoning, for sure. I'm just tired of the labels being thrown around. Rant over.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

moebees said:


> You say you're tired of it but then you and mbc and others come into the treatment free forum and harangue those that want to talk about treatment free.


i don't see anybody haranguing anyone about anything here. if you had been around the forum for more than just one month you would know that jrg has probably worked harder at finding bees able survive off treatments in his location than anyone else i am aware of.

mbc was not impugning tf per se, indeed it sounds like he has been working hard to select for resistance. he's just offering his perspective on the video, and he happens to be closer to that situation than any of us here. unfortunately we've no one else contributing to rebut the information he has provided, but from the information we do have what he is saying is certainly plausible.

in a perfect world there would be no bandwagons. in my view taking a hard line position that it must be this or must be that comes with the risk of being wrong either way.

yes this is the tf subforum. yes it is inappropriate for contributors to question the motivation of other contributors for wanting to pursue keeping bees off treatments. my interpretation of that doesn't include the censoring all comments pointing out where and when tf has failed.

the only way we'll advance our understanding about the how's and why's it works for some and not for others is to carefully analyze all of the experiences, the good ones as well as the bad ones.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> the only way we'll advance our understanding about the how's and why's it works for some and not for others is to carefully analyze all of the experiences, the good ones as well as the bad ones.


This is a great statement. I apologize to JRG, whom I've had some great conversations with here and to mbc. I'm trying to get some stuff sorted out for beginning school again next year at the age of 40, and pretty much everything that can go wrong did go wrong today, so that might be where some of my knee jerk reaction came from. I can be a hothead at tines. Moe, channel that passion into keeping bees, and it will pay off. You're a good guy and I've enjoyed talking to you and look forward to following your progress.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> mbc was not impugning tf .


Thank you squarepeg, I read a lot and only contribute where I think I might have something of relevance to add. I see us all fighting in the same direction.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

This thread shows how sensitive we are being a minority.
Count on squarepeg with his diplomatic ways to turn the conversation in a civilized direction!
:gh:


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I was just saying go in with your eyes open, but more importantly, your mind/brain. I didn't think I put down anything about being treatment free in my post, I was just saying, just cuz someone says they're something doesn't really make it true all the time. Also, beekeeping is very locational, what works in one area or person doesn't necessarily work 5 miles down the road at times.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

MBC, since you are the man on the ground, what breeds of bees are those tf guys using?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Our own definitions can get us sometimes. For instance there is a difference between "unacceptable losses, sustainable losses, and biologically sustainable losses. The first 2 have elements of economics built into them. If one is just interested in the biology of the thing, one may be able to tolerate higher losses on average. For instance I started with 16 queen right hives this spring and am going into winter with 63, though I have in my mind 4 or 5 that will be failures. If I have an "unacceptable" loss of 50 %, I will come out in spring with 30 hives. Still enough to work with representing a net gain. Being around treated bees mostly, if may have to absorb higher than acceptable losses to keep my genetics filtered. I could in theory having a range of losses from 75 % to 25 % for example, but as long as they averaged to 50 or so, its doable. 

However, the discussion of TF as doable or not could/should be displaced by a conversation about negative effects of bee movement and no selection. If TF can't be done in areas because of these practices, shouldn't we change/mitigate these practices in the long run? Not just because of TF, but the implications for bee health in general. We can't ignore the local negative effects of mite bombs, but beekeepers who follow ecological principles won't be bringing in new pests and viruses to a location in the first place and will have overall hardier bees.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

mbc said:


> I have a lot of time for Pete Hayward and have no doubt he speaks the truth as he sees it but his methods wouldn't work in the area in which I operate as bee density is much higher and a little more migration happens bringing in novel bees, varroa and their viruses.
> Many beekeepers will fill in surveys as treatment free due to the threat of prosecution or having their honey taken off the shelves if they admit to using generic thymol or oxalic acid treatments rather than the many times more expensive licensed products.
> Not wishing to rain on anyone's parade, just adding cautionary reality.


:thumbsup:

lot of their succes is based on swarms, he is saying it on the video


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## moebees (Sep 29, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> i don't see anybody haranguing anyone about anything here. if you had been around the forum for more than just one month you would know that jrg has probably worked harder at finding bees able survive off treatments in his location than anyone else i am aware of.
> 
> mbc was not impugning tf per se, indeed it sounds like he has been working hard to select for resistance. he's just offering his perspective on the video, and he happens to be closer to that situation than any of us here. unfortunately we've no one else contributing to rebut the information he has provided, but from the information we do have what he is saying is certainly plausible.
> 
> ...


Yeah great discussion. They state their opinions and admit they have no facts behind them and then say that what they have opined is reality!! Wow! And you guys think that is a discussion of the pros and cons? Sorry but not for me. I had no intention of starting any kind of debate or controversy. I simply posted a link to a video I thought was interesting and others in the treatment free forum might find interesting as well. No one was forced to watch it or like it or comment on it. But if you do decide to comment in a critical way you should have some facts, evidence, or logical thought. Don't tell me you pulled an opinion out of your ass and that then is the final truth of the matter. Sorry I have only been here a month. I think it was month too long. From now on I think I will see if I can keep bees and avoid beekeepers. That was Nordak's advise and pretty sound I say.

Squarepeg. I read your entire diary and found it wonderful and very helpful. Wish you success with your bees.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Hey c´mon moebees.

We are a community. We are with you. 

MB taught me something: respect everything and anybody. So, if you are not respected, just smile. Ok? We are the future, so what?


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> MBC, since you are the man on the ground, what breeds of bees are those tf guys using?


I cannot speak for David but I know Peter's bees are near native, slightly mongrolised Amm. He admits in the video much of his stock comes from swarms caught from feral colonies, I guess that makes his bees the same as the background population in the area, much the same as I keep.
(This is FACT! , as only truth and sunshine comes out of my ass!)


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

moebees said:


> From now on I think I will see if I can keep bees and avoid beekeepers. That was Nordak's advise and pretty sound I say.


I'd say let your results speak for themselves. I've some to realize in the beekeeping world that's all that really matters. Concentrate your efforts on your bees, how you want to keep them, and if you're dedicated to it, you'll find *success*, whatever that means to you. I love talking bees. Don't avoid this beekeeper anytime you want to talk.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Interesting MBC. 

My information was that native AMM's were virtually exterminated by Isle of Wight disease, then replaced by more resilient imported bees including AMM's from various locations like France, which mean it's now pretty hard to look at an AMM in your corner of the world and say if it's a native one or not. Even though some people claim they can, wing morphology etc is not as iron cast reliable as the adherants would like to believe.

Our first bees here were AMMS brought from Britain before tracheal mites, later Italians were imported and were a more suitable bee here but British AMM's persisted here as we never got Isle of Wight, and they could outbreed Italians. That's until we got varroa, and coincided with that, AMM's vanished I have not seen one in years.

Anyhow the reason for asking all this is we are really struggling here trying to breed a varroa tolerant bee. Those folks in the video are certainly having a measure of success, I wondered what bees they are using. Yes they catch swarms and that can always be a crock, but that can only be a crock if TF people are in a minority and being supplied enough swarms to stay in business from people who treat. But in this case the survey shows the great majority in the area do not treat, so to get a susainable number of swarms, they must be generated from mostly tf hives, or in other words, the tf population in the area is sustainable.

I would love to be able to get to a similar situation in my own area.

On the negative side they do not mention productivity or crop size, survival appears the only criterion. You mentioned there is pressure for people using illegal treatment methods to declare themselves tf, is that definate information?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

No need to apologize to me Nordak, I didn't see anything warranting it. I just say it how it is, I don't sugar coat this stuff. For some reason people seem to think I'm mean or something from some responses I get, but nothing can be further from the truth. I help whomever I can on Beesource and locally with their bees and I don't advocate how to keep their bees. I give them my opinion on the subject, tell them to keep and open mind, they can do whatever they want but they need to monitor their bees and make some decisions when needed on how to handle varroa if they become an issue or not. I also base my opinion on what I see in their hives, not just some dogmatic preachy opinion on whatever I believe. 

I just want to say this as well on the subject, just because a certain colony is not resistant or mite tolerant doesn't make them bad bees in the scheme of things. I was tracking over 32 individual lines I put together in 2014 from buying queens and capturing 4 swarms that year and making splits off what I already had. Pretty much none of them I would say were very tolerant at all, actually most of what I've seen in the first 2-3 years of bringing in different queens was that non of them held up here at all, even the swarms I got were very susceptible to varroa and I suspect most were from commercial derived stocks as I don't think there's too many feral bees in my area. Heck, when an II VSH breeder mites out in her second year, with her first year being pretty much introduced in July and building up a nuc to overwinter, that's saying something about our selection pressure here. 2015 was when I started to see some light at the end of the tunnel though. I was producing a few daughter queens that were not quite resistant, but had some tolerance and would not have as severe mite issues come September or October but still needed a late treatment to make it to spring with a viable cluster. The only bad thing about the approach was some really good looking queens ended up miting out in December and thus their promise of genetics were lost but valuable information was still gathered. That being said, a lot of these lines would be ideal to breed resistance traits into as they were very gentle, productive, and generally decent bees.

Anyways, if you want to really get into the details and whose bees I've tried you can PM me or jump into Chat in the evenings where I'm usually lurking about after 8pm for a bit with a few other guys from Beesource.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

AMM still alive and thriving in the UK and Scotland.
There is a group trying to raise money to save them.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

mbc, would you consider reaching out to pete to let him know that the video has caught the attention of a tf discussion board, and that we would love for him to join in if he is so inclined?

moe, thanks for starting the thread and bringing the video to our attention, i for one had not seen it before.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Interesting MBC.
> 
> My information was that native AMM's were virtually exterminated by Isle of Wight disease, then replaced by more resilient imported bees including AMM's from various locations like France, which mean it's now pretty hard to look at an AMM in your corner of the world and say if it's a native one or not. Even though some people claim they can, wing morphology etc is not as iron cast reliable as the adherants would like to believe.
> 
> ...


Ok Oldtimer, that's a lot to deal with but I'll try and answer as best I can point by point. Apologies for thread hijacking and going off topic ( I won't be offended if it's deleted or moved somewhere more appropriate )
Firstly IOW desease killed off a lot of bees and many bees were imported for restocking and these imports will certainly have left a legacy in the genetic mix but the idea that the native bee was almost wiped out is falacy, especially in marginal areas like Wales where ordinary beekeepers simply didn't have funds to buy in bees to restock, this was in the early part of the 20th century when most beekeepers were agricultural workers on low wages. I agree wing morphology is a very limited technique. 
I worked for a season in the bop and well remember the "vigour" some of the bees left in the east Cape aquire when mated with what the boss called "black bush buggers!". I imagine such problems have ceased now you have varroa. 
There certainly is a self sustaining population of feral and tf bees on the lleyn peninsula and long may this continue. This is a relatively small population in an isolated area, the bees are a bit of a mix but mostly AMM. Unfortunately queens from the area don't have any magic powers when parachuted into other areas. Honey crops in the area tend to be modest but not too dissimilar to crops in other areas of the country.
As to pressure to declare themselves being tf being definate, not really, it's just the path of least resistance and human nature being what it is, I guess many people go down this route, I certainly know some personally who have told this white lie.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> mbc, would you consider reaching out to pete to let him know that the video has caught the attention of a tf discussion board, and that we would love for him to join in if he is so inclined?
> 
> moe, thanks for starting the thread and bringing the video to our attention, i for one had not seen it before.


Iirc Pete used to take part on this board, I'll drop him a line to see if he wants to speak for himself here.
+1 on the thanks Moe, I hadn't seen it before either.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

JRG13 said:


> No need to apologize to me Nordak, I didn't see anything warranting it. I just say it how it is, I don't sugar coat this stuff. For some reason people seem to think I'm mean or something from some responses I get, but nothing can be further from the truth. I help whomever I can on Beesource and locally with their bees and I don't advocate how to keep their bees. I give them my opinion on the subject, tell them to keep and open mind, they can do whatever they want but they need to monitor their bees and make some decisions when needed on how to handle varroa if they become an issue or not. I also base my opinion on what I see in their hives, not just some dogmatic preachy opinion on whatever I believe.
> 
> I just want to say this as well on the subject, just because a certain colony is not resistant or mite tolerant doesn't make them bad bees in the scheme of things. I was tracking over 32 individual lines I put together in 2014 from buying queens and capturing 4 swarms that year and making splits off what I already had. Pretty much none of them I would say were very tolerant at all, actually most of what I've seen in the first 2-3 years of bringing in different queens was that non of them held up here at all, even the swarms I got were very susceptible to varroa and I suspect most were from commercial derived stocks as I don't think there's too many feral bees in my area. Heck, when an II VSH breeder mites out in her second year, with her first year being pretty much introduced in July and building up a nuc to overwinter, that's saying something about our selection pressure here. 2015 was when I started to see some light at the end of the tunnel though. I was producing a few daughter queens that were not quite resistant, but had some tolerance and would not have as severe mite issues come September or October but still needed a late treatment to make it to spring with a viable cluster. The only bad thing about the approach was some really good looking queens ended up miting out in December and thus their promise of genetics were lost but valuable information was still gathered. That being said, a lot of these lines would be ideal to breed resistance traits into as they were very gentle, productive, and generally decent bees.
> 
> Anyways, if you want to really get into the details and whose bees I've tried you can PM me or jump into Chat in the evenings where I'm usually lurking about after 8pm for a bit with a few other guys from Beesource.


My apology came from me not wanting to come off as disrespectful or dismissive, as I have a lot of respect for your efforts and knowledge. You've worked harder at trying to develop mite resistance than I ever will, and that's an admirable endeavor in my eyes.

I'd love to chat sometime, but can't seem to get it going. After installing java, it defaults back to the java error again.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

mbc said:


> I worked for a season in the bop and well remember the "vigour" some of the bees left in the east Cape aquire when mated with what the boss called "black bush buggers!"


Oh I didn't know you'd been over here, ha ha that's pretty funny, "black xxxxx's" is exactly what they were called in the trade, hearing that brings back old memories LOL. And yes these issues are gone now we have varroa, the new crop of beekeepers have no idea how bad it used to be.



mbc said:


> There certainly is a self sustaining population of feral and tf bees on the lleyn peninsula and long may this continue. This is a relatively small population in an isolated area, the bees are a bit of a mix but mostly AMM. Unfortunately queens from the area don't have any magic powers when parachuted into other areas.


OK thanks that pretty much answers what i wanted to know, i was really wondering if they have some special genetics or it's environmental, looks like perhaps a combination of both. Appreciate you taking the time to fully answer this.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Nordak, the issue may be with your browser, google chrome and the newer ones don't support Java anymore, have to use internet explorer.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

JRG13 said:


> Nordak, the issue may be with your browser, google chrome and the newer ones don't support Java anymore, have to use internet explorer.


Thanks for the heads up. Will give it a go sometime.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

what is most intriguing to me about pete's story is that it is similar to the one we have in my location.

about 20 years ago varroa arrived and was wiping out everyone's colonies. an astute 2nd generation beekeeper had the sensibility to go out and check on a handful of feral bee colonies that he and his father had been observing over the years in the nearby woods.

low and behold those feral colonies were not wiped out by the mite invasion. the beekeeper went out with his chainsaw and collected 5 feral colonies and has been propagating from them off treatments ever since.

against all odds, he still has 2 of the original 5 feral colonies that have successfully requeened themselves all through those 20 years. 

i'm lucky enough to have a number of colonies that were derived from those bees, and i am now propagating from them as well.

unlike pete, i've transitioned from collecting swarms to grafting queens and making up nucs from the least productive/most swarmy colonies. in doing so i feel that progress is being made with measurable improvements in swarm prevention and honey production.

no drop in survival rate has been measured with said selection. indeed the survival rate has been improving as well.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> i've transitioned from collecting swarms to grafting queens and making up nucs from the least productive/most swarmy colonies. in doing so i feel that progress is being made with measurable improvements in swarm prevention and honey production.


In my location, without feral swarms and drones from resistant stock, the resistance would be lost in a few years.
I´m more with David Heaf on this.



> Probably the most powerful argument in favour of natural swarming is to do with the control of disease in the bee population. Swarming is associated with only vertical transmission of disease, which theory predicts will select for low pathogen virulence, milder pathogens, if you like.18 This means that if the pathogen kills the host that is the end of the line for both host and pathogen. On the other hand, multiplying colonies by splitting them, as is common beekeeping practice, increases horizontal disease transmission which evolves high pathogen virulence. This is because the main reservoir for disease is usually the brood combs and the brood in them. If the pathogen kills off one part of a split there is still a chance for another part to survive and propagate the pathogen. It is not the end of the line for the pathogen. And even if all parts of a split fail there is still infected comb and equipment present to spread disease, e.g. through robbing. Helped by common beekeeping practices, pathogens can freely develop their virulence. For example, their reproductive fitness can increase, as there is less incentive to curb it sufficiently to allow the infected colony to swarm and thus secure the pathogen's survival by vertical transmission. The result is selection for increased lethality of pathogens.>


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood sibylle.

on the other hand we are now learning that there are beneficial strains of microorganisms as well.

i'm not sure it has to be an either/or proposition, and that it is more likely a case of both/and.

what i mean is we can allow winter losses to cull out the potentially harmful microorganisms and the more successful strains of varroa.

colonies that overwinter and are destined to reach swarming strength in the spring might be assumed to have a good compliment of beneficial organisms and perhaps less successful strains of varroa.

in the same way as in your quoted excerpt above, it may be possible to horizontally transfer the more beneficial and less virulent organisms when making splits from surviving/thriving colonies.

the hope is that such resistance/tolerance might allow colonies even in your environment have success when being managed off treatments, in the same way that the colonies that survived the varroa invasion in wales and in my location were able to.

unfortunately we do have many examples of resistant/tolerant bees failing to thrive when introduced into locations that don't support a surviving feral population. as i mentioned before, i applaud the work you and others are doing in this regard despite the associated challenges.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

SP I never meant to offend you, I am with you and your experience and I don´t want you to have a setback.

If we have success, and yours is extraordinary, suddenly we are not careful. But there is no status quo to this situation.

Many newbies are reading here like I have. When I started beekeeping I believed everything people told me to be true. I especially believed queen breeding the main factor for resistance. Now I know that bee queens loose their resistance traits often if transported to another location. I never thought the success could depend so much on the circumstances you find with your location.

To develop resistant stock needs years. Microorganism settlement in the important amount needs years and one treatment might kill them all.

All experience in science show that virus gets more virulent if there is no strategy against this. Fight against virus but no elimination of it means more virulence. I don't believe we humans are able to find this strategy yet with the bees, opposite to nature which will find a way after a crisis.

Please don´t praise me like that. I try my best to help the bees but I´m in the fortunate situation not to be dependent on an income in that direction.
So failure is not as hard on me than on others.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Re transferring queens to other locations, as a former commercial queen breeder I can give one reason why things sometimes fail and in fact this was a constant problem for us. People buy a queen with certain traits, then later complain it "didn't work", or such, the new queen is no good.

Mostly the reason is the person has either through bad management, or bad luck, lost the queen we sent and their hive requeened itself, they then think their own raised queen is the one they got from us. This is especially true when unbeknown to them there is a virgin present in the hive they try to requeen and she can kill the introduced queen then be laying herself in a week or so.
For this reason I'd suggest any TF queens sold for purposes of testing them should be marked, preferably by both paint on the thorax, and a wing clip.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sibylle, no offense whatsoever was taken, i think sometimes meanings get mixed up in translation, yes? 

it is my opinion that you and the others in your location who are attempting to manage bees off treatments deserve much credit for taking the more difficult path. i am pulling for all of you and wishing success. i appreciate that you take the time to share your experiences here.

oldtimer, you make an another excellent point as usual.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Re transferring queens to other locations, as a former commercial queen breeder I can give one reason why things sometimes fail and in fact this was a constant problem for us. People buy a queen with certain traits, then later complain it "didn't work", or such, the new queen is no good.
> 
> Mostly the reason is the person has either through bad management, or bad luck, lost the queen we sent and their hive requeened itself, they then think their own raised queen is the one they got from us. This is especially true when unbeknown to them there is a virgin present in the hive they try to requeen and she can kill the introduced queen then be laying herself in a week or so.
> For this reason I'd suggest any TF queens sold for purposes of testing them should be marked, preferably by both paint on the thorax, and a wing clip.


That´s true oldtimer, and a very good argument.
My situation was different, though. I started again with the already "resistant" queens and I saw expressed traits I wanted to have ( VSH, DWV tolerance) . So far so good.
I still have 3 of these queens ( two are marked) but the original hives are those that needed the most attention. Why?

- brood amount and storage are not in balance
- one queens hive was susceptible to a local virus
- brood amount and bee density are not in balance

I expected this from the AMM queen which comes from the canary island, the descendants still have the traits but are more adapted now. 
There was a time their foraging was so bad I thought they would not recognize the flora but maybe there was another reason.

And I´m to blame too, because I splitted in a wrong way as I realized. Strong splits, but still I weakened them somehow. So they needed my help to survive ( food mostly and donating of brood to have more bees to do cleaning) even without being harvested. No treatments. I want to do the splits differently in future, imitating a swarm more.

The third point could be spraying but I´m not sure. I´m lucky to be in a natural environment with not much poisoning. 
But I saw chilled brood thrown out. Maybe this is normal, I lack the experience so far.

I´m not sure if I´m prejudiced but I´m a good observer. The foreign queens hives need more attention and I would advise every newbie to start with a local queens colony to learn about bees just as I did. The failure I had with this first experience started my determination.

Comparing my colonies with those of a friend who works only with local mutts I saw a difference.
But right now I change my outlook. I now regard the VSH as a symptom treatment and want the bees to fight the cause, the mite itself.
The virus susceptibility I want to influence by my managements ( feeding honey, microfauna).

Well. I hope after winter there are some left to experiment with 



> sibylle, no offense whatsoever was taken, i think sometimes meanings get mixed up in translation, yes?


true SP, that´s mostly my fault, being not fluent enough. 
I´m happy to be included and hope politics will never separate beekeepers working together.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

genau sibylle. i had some german language classes in early school but that was many years ago and i have forgotten most of the words. 

i tried to use google translate so read your website and attempted to register but it didn't work. i think there may be a security problem using google translate.

i did find it interesting that the german translation for the english word 'colonies' is 'peoples'.

i'm hoping your treatment free 'peoples' have good success with survival this winter.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> i tried to use google translate so read your website and attempted to register but it didn't work.


Really? I´m honored!


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

mbc said:


> It is part of the tf phenomena over here that as a group they tend to comprise of one or two gurus and a host of very keen new disciples who come and go with quite an alarming attrition rate. Not one of the local associations advocate tf and they're generally quite keen on teaching keeping track of varroa and keeping the levels down where necessary (almost invariably an autumn treatment regime).


Is there someone selling these queens in Wales? I would like to buy and make a test of their claims.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani,
2012 you wrote this:



> Epigenetic factors might be one explanation in varroa resistance. Genes turn on as a consequence of mite pressure or other factors. This might also explain why there have been so many disappointments when new queens have been bought with big hopes. If the conditions in the new place have been vastly different, the genes turn off and bees lose their ability to withstand mites.


What are your thoughts about this now? 
How should beekeepers, not isolated, proceed? Those with your queens, for example?
What´s your experience regarding the time the "resistant" colonies need to adapt? How many generations (if isolated from treated bees)?
Will the original queen never adapt?
Must our managements change to more natural beekeeping, avoiding nucs for example? Use swarming instead?

As I see it there still are too many setbacks, even with professional breeding. Those like Paul Jungles, for example ( there was a speaking here) concentrate on VSH, but this could be a bottleneck too.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> Juhani,
> 2012 you wrote this:
> Epigenetic factors might be one explanation in varroa resistance. Genes turn on as a consequence of mite pressure or other factors. This might also explain why there have been so many disappointments when new queens have been bought with big hopes. If the conditions in the new place have been vastly different, the genes turn off and bees lose their ability to withstand mites.


I would say there is evidence that varroa resistance in not dependant on management or climate. Resistant bees are resistant where ever they are taken. Resistance is depanding on many, many genes. If the beestock has not enough of these genes which make them resistant, there will emerge an illution in the beekeepers head, that management or environment are the crucial factors. Beekeepers usually do not manage their colonies exactly the same way. The beekeeper has some hives which do very well, some in other environments or with other managements do less well. Then the beekeeper may send some queens to other beekeepers (which happens surprisingly seldom!) and the queens are not coping varroa. The explanation is ready: environment or management. He cannot say out the sold truth: his bees are not totally 100% resistant.


Regarding my words from 2012 I would say that emphasis is on the word "vastly".
In 2012 I was on the top of my hype. If you read further, you find out that later I realized that the resistance in my bees was not 100%. In 2014-2015 winter I had huge losses, and further most of the surviving colonies did not make through the summer. I was devastated. But the only conclusion I could make was that the bees were not resistant enough. Making excuses would be lying to myself. 

The role of epigenetic factors has not been proven. I think they might has some role. 

Why would using swarms make the situation any easier? There is no proven resistant wild stocks in Europe, except the one in Wales maybe. All swarms I have captured in my life have been useless. Big hopes, yes, but dead hives in the spring.
But using swarms helps the beekeeper to come up with sensational stories. With somewhat resistant bees and a swarm the future of your beekeeping is garanted for the next 3-4 years, or even longer. Then the next swarms carry on you further. No real 100% resistance in the bees. Use swarms if you want to fool yourself. 

Avoiding nucs or feeding or large cells is part of the mysterious part in treatment beekeeping which is very near woodoo. 

Arista Foundation together with its large group of highly skilled beekeepers(like Paul Jungels) and scientists in Europe and US(like John Harbo and Tom Rinderer) is our best hope to get resisant bees in reasonable time. My approach is diffrent because I cannot use the one drone insemination technique they are using because of our short summer. In the distant future it is important that new queens raised from resistant stock can be mated with drones from another resistant stock. That is why different approaches are needed. 


Not isolated beekeepers have very little hope, unless they can control their matings, either with inseminations or mating station.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks for answering and explaining your point of view.



> Why would using swarms make the situation any easier? There is no proven resistant wild stocks in Europe, except the one in Wales maybe. All swarms I have captured in my life have been useless. Big hopes, yes, but dead hives in the spring.


This is not what I meant. I meant the swarms taken from your own colonies, to avoid the splitting methods.

Maybe resistance is just as easy as being the imitation of natural behavior. The ferals ( I mean real ferals, not escaped swarms) use this to renew themselves.

Well, the hope for honey harvest will not allow this management for a commercial beekeeper, I´m afraid. 

I could use a mating station which is near me ( toleranzzucht AG). Maybe I will if necessary. If my losses are 100%.


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