# Is almond pollination adversely affecting queen genetics?



## grumpybeeman

What happens when a big fat queen bee lays like crazy, to the point of burning herself out? Can she be rebred? Are queens select bred to lay lots of eggs...and beef up the numbers for the almond pollination? Doesn't that shorten the life expectancy of the queen?...thus knocking the colony out cold when up in the northern climates we can't and/or have trouble requeening late in the year? Doesn't that mean we have to buy nucs and package bees year after year because of the bred-to-lay-lots genetics that queens are selected for? I can think of alot of vehicles, machines, tools, etc that are meant to be bought new every year. Whether or not make it cheap sell it for as much as you can applies to queen bees, and packages...I won't say for certain...But it's time that people start telling the truth and looking at the facts, rather than saying open the wallet every year and buy more queens, buy more bees. Some of you guys know exactly what the end result of breeding queens to lay alot does...Whether it's intentional or not, is speculative. Sooner or later, the weather will catch up to the california crowd...to the point of them not being able to requeen their own stock fast enough, even if the weather is warm enough to breed queens. Pushing bees to beyond what they're able to do, will just ruin bees. However wise the intentions are to make a bigger stronger better laying queen.... The bees need to be able to be given a rest to catch up. Pushing any livestock too far is bad....We're seeing it all across the country anymore. Farm fields being planted to the point of depriving the soil of nutrients. Burn out bees.


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## grumpybeeman

JodieToadie said:


> Ian,
> I know you have a way bigger operation than me, but the Kona's sure beat Cali and even NZ queens last year. Had a better acceptance rate too in my experience. I got some California Italian Oli last year and the queens were tiny and the bee's hated them, balled and killed them.
> 
> Carni Kona's do really well up here in the peace. The NZ did well first year and failed in spring.
> Had a few Chilean as well but they were darn near africanized.
> 
> With the seasonal problems sounds like the usual Cali guys won't be able to supply anyway.


First year and failed in the spring. Thank you...I'm glad that I'm not the only one with queen bees burning out because they lay too much. Have you had any luck finding queens that last 3-4 yrs like what the old timers talk about all the time?


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> First year and failed in the spring. Thank you...I'm glad that I'm not the only one with queen bees burning out because they lay too much.


Grumpybeeman, your tone certainly reflects your tag name...


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



Ian said:


> Grumpybeeman, your tone certainly reflects your tag name...


I want bees that make honey and last 3-4 yrs...Not almond queens that lay so much they fall over/run out of eggs and the hive dies off. Those select genetics in the hive are great if you're gearing up with big numbers to do an early almond pollination. If you're aiming for honey production, bees that are selected to go for pollen don't work well. Does that make sense? 

Thanks on the reflection!


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## jim lyon

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> I want bees that make honey and last 3-4 yrs...Not almond queens that lay so much they fall over/run out of eggs and the hive dies off. Those select genetics in the hive are great if you're gearing up with big numbers to do an early almond pollination. If you're aiming for honey production, bees that are selected to go for pollen don't work well. Does that make sense?
> 
> Thanks on the reflection!


Then perhaps breed your own? It's not terribly difficult you know.


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## Honey-4-All

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



Ian said:


> Grumpybeeman, your tone certainly reflects your tag name...


Ok grumps you met your match. I'm all unhappy that the queens don't last like the "good ol days" either. Actually I'm wrong when I say that. You know........ we breed them for short life cause I use the same queens as we sell and I just love to make up dead outs and pour tons of syrup into the new ones. Makes me so happy going through all the agony of sore backs and extra hours just so I know what the customers are going through. I sleep much better because of it. If you are really happy being grumpy maybe you can order a queen from me that the pickers decided to smash the head on when closing the cage. That way you can get over it really fast and save yourself the heartache of knowing the louse in the cage is going to dud out in a few week anyways. 

Have a happy grumpy day tomorrow knowing the Packers ain't gonna lose!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> Does that make sense?


I think your half way there grumpybeeman. The other half of the equation is what the in hive disease pressure is doing to the queens health compounded with in hive and out of hive chemical usage.


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



jim lyon said:


> Then perhaps breed your own? It's not terribly difficult you know.


Breeding your own isn't difficult...BUT from what stock do you breed when 99% of the bees out there are burnouts? Some bees last a few yrs through agricultural areas or not. Grumpybeeman needs grumpy bees!


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

Requeening is just becoming a part of a good management strategy. If we cant manage the conditions affect our queen health, then we must manage the issue the only way we can. 
Dont point the finger directly at the queen breeders, they are giving us excellent stock that have to endure the worst conditons. Tell Honey-4 All to bring us a queen that last 3 years, and he will tell you how can anything live for three years in that kind of hive environment


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

now tell him to do that in a drought situation...what is he suppose to do? Breed queens that dont burn out?? How exactly??


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



Honey-4-All said:


> Ok grumps you met your match. I'm all unhappy that the queens don't last like the "good ol days" either. Actually I'm wrong when I say that. You know........ we breed them for short life cause I use the same queens as we sell and I just love to make up dead outs and pour tons of syrup into the new ones. Makes me so happy going through all the agony of sore backs and extra hours just so I know what the customers are going through. I sleep much better because of it. If you are really happy being grumpy maybe you can order a queen from me that the pickers decided to smash the head on when closing the cage. That way you can get over it really fast and save yourself the heartache of knowing the louse in the cage is going to dud out in a few week anyways.
> 
> Have a happy grumpy day tomorrow knowing the Packers ain't gonna lose!!!!!!!!!!!!


My point is this... Once you're overloaded with crap genetics bees...How do you break out of that cycle??? People in warm weather climates can requeen all the time, and that's exactly how they get away with short life queens that lay too darn much. You're established already...Try establishing a business from the ground up without moving your bees all over the place, and not requeening all the time. I'm getting sick of having to be packages every year and drop queens in them all the time. It's getting old, and as long as the bees build up for a strong pollination...that's all that counts. I want bees for honey production, not pollination. If they're so mean that I can't barely work them...I'd rather have that than nothing. 

Theres got to be an in between point with queen bees that burn out vs not. If the almond pollination bottoms out like stock markets do.... Then what? A ton of people have a ton of bees that don't make crap for honey. What sense does that make? 

p.s. Atleast I'd be getting a queen bee in the cage instead of a virgin that's not bred like 90% of everybody else up in Wisconsin does.


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## Daniel Y

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> Breeding your own isn't difficult...BUT from what stock do you breed when 99% of the bees out there are burnouts? Some bees last a few yrs through agricultural areas or not. Grumpybeeman needs grumpy bees!


rear queens from the 1%. How many queens do you want? and how many queens do you expect to need to make them? 1% would be a very low selection pressure.


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## jim lyon

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> Breeding your own isn't difficult...BUT from what stock do you breed when 99% of the bees out there are burnouts? Some bees last a few yrs through agricultural areas or not. Grumpybeeman needs grumpy bees!


Well if you really believe that 99% are bad then yes, by all means, breed from the 1%, surely you occasionally find that great hive. Use it! Its not hard to get all the graft you might need off of a single queen though one would be better served to use more than just one. Why continue to buy what you consider junk, year after year after year. Take some initiative, dont just be grumpy, find a better way.


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## JohnK and Sheri

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> I'm getting sick of having to be packages every year and drop queens in them all the time. It's getting old, and as long as the bees build up for a strong pollination...that's all that counts. I want bees for honey production, not pollination. If they're so mean that I can't barely work them...I'd rather have that than nothing.
> 
> Theres got to be an in between point with queen bees that burn out vs not.


First, Bees don't have to be mean to collect honey. African bees, the meanest out there, are notoriously bad at honey storage.
Second, sometimes one has to adjust to changing situations. Maybe queens don't last as long as they used to when being pushed into brooding year round. So, the cost of doing biz went up. But so did the price of honey, so did the price of pollination. They are worth the price as they are necessary to produce that income. And not all lines are used for pollination or being bred for pollination friendly traits. 
Sounds to me like a Carniolan would be right up your alley. They might not make as much honey as a huge Italian cluster in our early flows here in Wisconsin, but they will shut down earlier in fall and in stretches of rainy weather so won't burn themselves out either. They winter a bit more efficiently. Perhaps a compromise would better fit your management goals.


> A ton of people have a ton of bees that don't make crap for honey. What sense does that make?


Our Italians (who admittedly sometimes can't bring themselves to quit laying even in a blizzard) still make fine crops of honey in a typical Wisconsin summer, always have. Our honey production is more determined by health of the hives, weather and available forage, not queen genetics.


> p.s. At least I'd be getting a queen bee in the cage instead of a virgin that's not bred like 90% of everybody else up in Wisconsin does.


Speak for yourself, cowboy  . We buy hundreds of queens every year with MAYBE 1-2 duds per hundred, (and replacements just in case are always sent along). We buy from breeders who have stood the test of time and take pride in providing a quality product. They may not be the cheapest around but they are reliable and conscientious. They all have choices of genetics one end of spectrum to the other. We sell lots of these queens over the course of a year and have few complaints of bad queens.

As for grafting your own, do the research of various genetic traits you might want. Buy production queens to graft off if you can't afford a breeder. Every year keep records of which did what and breed off the daughters of your faves. Essentially, it is how we all do it.
Sheri


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## babybee

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

It's not a good time for a pessimist to start keeping bees. We need big colonies not just for almonds but for what little forage left. How many cycles of alfalfa do farmers cut now. If I were you I would try to buy a few open mated queens from Dr. Joe Latshaw. I never made any real money in this business until I started buying breeders from him.


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## WBVC

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> My point is this... Once you're overloaded with crap genetics bees...How do you break out of that cycle??? People in warm weather climates can requeen all the time, and that's exactly how they get away with short life queens that lay too darn much. You're established already...Try establishing a business from the ground up without moving your bees all over the place, and not requeening all the time. I'm getting sick of having to be packages every year and drop queens in them all the time. It's getting old, and as long as the bees build up for a strong pollination...that's all that counts. I want bees for honey production, not pollination. If they're so mean that I can't barely work them...I'd rather have that than nothing.
> 
> Theres got to be an in between point with queen bees that burn out vs not. If the almond pollination bottoms out like stock markets do.... Then what? A ton of people have a ton of bees that don't make crap for honey. What sense does that make?
> 
> p.s. Atleast I'd be getting a queen bee in the cage instead of a virgin that's not bred like 90% of everybody else up in Wisconsin does.


Regardless of the species breeding for selected traits takes time.
If you don't like what others have available breed your own.
You say your Queens are crap. Others purchase from the same source and say their Queens are great. If you and your immediate neighbour purchased from the same source and your neighbours were consistently great and yours consistently crap I would look towards differences in husbandry....otherwise it may be that you need to breed up for your specific micro environment.
Take the best of your crap and breed it up. Do that selection process over and over and over again and odds are you should end up with the genetics that suit you.
All this from someone who is trying to get the courage to raise their own Queens. This is the year for me to try...better to "fail" than never try


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## Fusion_power

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

Breeding a queen that will last 3 full seasons is relatively easy. Breeding a queen that will last 3 seasons AND produce a crop of honey each season is way off the scale for difficulty. There is a negative correlation between queen longevity and number of eggs laid which correlates with number of foragers and therefore with size of honey crop produced. Selection for longevity can be done with careful queen records, but when varroa and their virus partners camp out in your colonies, all bees live shorter lives, including the queen. In this case, Grumpy, you are pointing the finger at queen breeders when you should be looking closely at the effect of mites and diseases.

Bees bred for almond pollination are a different ball of wax. They have to be bred to produce huge colonies very early in the season. This puts queen breeders in a position of having to select genetics that produce lots of brood when they are fed. While such bees are not adapted to the single location beekeeper, they are useful to the migratory beekeeper who sets up in as many as 5 locations per year.

So Grumpy, if you want better bees and better queens and more honey, go breed your own queens and see how easy it is. Then you can come back and grump about how hard it is on the land when the bees gather such big crops of honey.

And just in case anyone thinks I'm disagreeing with grumpy, far from it. I've found that there are times a pessimistic outlook on life is invaluable. He IS making some points that need to be considered. So give grumpy some room and let him grump. He has something to contribute here, even if it is a lot of grumbling.


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

"Bees bred for almond pollination are a different ball of wax. They have to be bred to produce huge colonies very early in the season. This puts queen breeders in a position of having to select genetics that produce lots of brood when they are fed. While such bees are not adapted to the single location beekeeper, they are useful to the migratory beekeeper who sets up in as many as 5 locations per year."

Yes...My point exactly. Pollination bees are good bees if you're looking for pollination bees. Theres alot of people that don't admit to what a pollination bee is because it conveys a sense of pessimism when it's out of the realm of pessimism. As baby bee mentioned earlier about how many times farmers cut alfalfa. Rondup ready alfalfa?...Alfalfa that is sprayed in the fall? Or alfalfa where the old ways of letting it bloom for a long time for a good first crop of hay are still practiced. Or renting out owned property to someone that is planting organic alfalfa and letting that bloom for long durations as well. All people read/see is farmers cut alfalfa, so In a sense not knowing what someone is speaking of...The jolly facetious beekeeper that can laugh anything off with a good joke will-does-is construed as a pessimist. 

"When they had laden themselves with honey they would rise into the air, and dart off in a straight line, almost with the velocity of a bullet. The hunters watched attentively the course they took, and then set off in the same direction, stumbling along over twisted roots and fallen trees, with their eyes turned up to the sky. In this way they traced the honey-laden bees to their hive, in the hollow trunk of a blasted oak, where, after buzzing about for a moment, they entered a hole about sixty feet...‎" - a tree a hive...not the back of an almond truck.

The big question is... How do you differentiate between bees bred for almond pollination... and bees that are not??? You have to pull teeth for answers or pull out the wallet for an exclusive...in what 50 yrs ago was more common place to find. 

Breeding bees off of bees that have to be requeened alot doesn't cut it. If I were trying to beef up some colonies to take down to a warmer climate, to requeen and send back up here after the flow down there is done...I wouldn't care how long queens last. 

Doubt my theory?...Find the 70-80 yr old beekeeper in your area and ask him how long the queens used to last. For even more insight find the old coot in europe that had bees before ww2 started, and that is still keeping bees... See what the new strains of bigger better gentler bees are doing to the eurozone. Germany-france-etc the california game they play is to take the bees to Italy. The guys that have the grumpier bees that were left alone and not select bred to be better pollinators are doing quite well being left in the northern climates.


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

>>All people read/see is farmers cut alfalfa, so In a sense not knowing what someone is speaking of...The jolly facetious beekeeper that can laugh anything off with a good joke will-does-is construed as a pessimist. <<

well you do frame your tag as "grumpy", and your doing a lot of grumbling, usually people construe those as pessimists

Grump, I get my queens from Cali, and from a very reputable breeder. These are excellent honey producers. I dont go as far as to blame all the shortfalls of those queens on its breeding. There is a truck load of problems which are associated to longevity


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

well you do frame your tag as "grumpy", and your doing a lot of grumbling, usually people construe those as pessimists[/QUOTE]

If you run into enough california almond bees, you'll have a change of heart too. Theyre actually getting a taste of their own medicine with junk queens this year. It's natures way of catching up with people that push the bees too far.


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

I keep touch with my Cali supplier, to which I hinge my operation on...
here is a snip from our last conversation in regards to the challenges of current extended drought conditions;

"... It will be a challenge for sure this year but this is not the first time. *We put a lot of inputs into our bees and never let them stress*, our annual loss each year runs around 5 to 8 percent, those losses are figured between September 1st and Feb 1st and we run thousands of hives. *We cannot afford to have any high losses because so many people are depending on us to produce queens and package bees on a consistent basis year after year*, we operate at a very highly (intensive) labor level... "

Professional beekeepers taking this situation very seriously, and doing everything they can to MANAGE the situation.


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

And how long do you get out of your queens before you have to requeen them?


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

I requeen 50% every year.


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

Nosema, viral loads, chemical contaminated wax they live months and months and years on. Im finding regardless the queens that come in, or are raised here on the farm they all fall to the same fate, too early. Requeening is just becoming a part of a good management strategy. If we cant manage the conditions affect our queen health, then we must manage the issue the only way we can.


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



Ian said:


> I requeen 50% every year.


You're an honest beekeeper...I'll give you that much. Having to replace half the queens every year isn't good... I see it in the u.s with people I know... If you want to keep them alive all winter, you have to. You don't see a problem with having to replace half every year? I bet the queens lay like crazy then run out of eggs.


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> You don't see a problem with having to replace half every year?


yes I do. 

what exactly are you figuring your going to do about this issue? If it were as simple as breeding, then it would represent a non issue. The problem is a more than just one contributing condition


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



Ian said:


> yes I do.
> 
> what exactly are you figuring your going to do about this issue? If it were as simple as breeding, then it would represent a non issue. The problem is a more than just one contributing condition


How many head of cattle do you run? Would you sell your best bull or heifers and keep the lame one or sick one that occasionally comes along? They're selling the tired-bad genetic bees to everybody all over the u.s. and it sounds like canada as well. If someone sold you a cow that was supposed to be calving, sent her up in a freight car and said here you go...And she wasn't. That wouldn't be very nice...would it? That's what we're getting with bees....

These crap genetic queen bees that don't last a year started somewhere. They're bred to lay alot. Queen breeders are doing the same thing that manufacturers are with products.. They make it/breed it as cheap as they can and sell as much of it as they can for as much$ as they can. It's a throw away society, and it's not an accident.


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

Its obvious you have no idea what your talking about. 

Have you ever spoken to a large commercial queen breeder? Local breeder? Extremely professional. They would talk you under the table about their breeding efforts. 

Have you ever considered breeding your own queens? Because in your eye, that should solve all your problems.


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



Ian said:


> Its obvious you have no idea what your talking about.
> 
> Have you ever spoken to a large commercial queen breeder? Local breeder? Extremely professional. They would talk you under the table about their breeding efforts.
> 
> Have you ever considered breeding your own queens? Because in your eye, that should solve all your problems.


 Take bees that burn out early and breed stock off of that...That makes sense, doesn't it? Are you kidding me?


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## Ian

grumpybeeman said:


> Take bees that burn out early and breed stock off of that...That makes sense, doesn't it?


Sounds like you will have this problem well at hand throughout your own breeding efforts.


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## grumpybeeman

"Sounds like you will have this problem well at hand throughout your own breeding efforts"

More like trying to find bees that aren't bred for pollination. I don't move them around to florida, georgia, etc.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> I bet the queens lay like crazy then run out of eggs.


What is this queens laying like crazy and then running out that you are talking about? What does that look like?

I don't know where you are getting your crappy queens from, but you should shop around more.


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## RAK

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> I bet the queens lay like crazy then run out of eggs.


I would have to disagree with the statement. If a queen runs out of eggs then she turns into a drone layer. If you bought some queens and they are laying drones then most likely they failed at mating. Most of the time queens that are laying crazy and are about to run out of eggs get superseded. Do you think bees forgot what supercedure is?


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



RAK said:


> I would have to disagree with the statement. If a queen runs out of eggs then she turns into a drone layer. If you bought some queens and they are laying drones then most likely they failed at mating. Most of the time queens that are laying crazy and are about to run out of eggs get superseded. Do you think bees forgot what supercedure is?


Cordovans for example...Their output is too high...


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## clyderoad

grumpybeeman said:


> "Sounds like you will have this problem well at hand throughout your own breeding efforts"
> 
> More like trying to find bees that aren't bred for pollination. I don't move them around to florida, georgia, etc.


there are beekeepers that currently post on BeeSource that breed bees in the northern states for honey production. Go back and search for and look at some older posts to find them. Maybe they have the stock you can start your breeding program with.
As for the rest of your belly aching :scratch:.


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## Ian

grumpybeeman said:


> Cordovans for example...Their output is too high...


What would your target output be, exactly... Because what Cali is giving me is exactly the out put I'm looking for. Longevity is a totally different set if circumstances


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> Their output is too high...


Does that mean that the queen lays more eggs than the nurse bees can tend to? Or that the queen lays more eggs than workers can keep covered when cold conditions exist.


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

I think one thing that might help this conversation is if Grumpybeeman edit his name to happybeeman and his posts might reflect a more constructive tone 
Because in our email conversations you emit a more positive attitude


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



Ian said:


> I think one thing that might help this conversation is if Grumpybeeman edit his name to happybeeman and his posts might reflect a more constructive tone
> Because in our email conversations you emit a more positive attitude


That's because I'm not busting knuckles trying to put chains back on sprockets that want to throw them off. What kind of queens are they that are crapping out on you?.... Cordovan seem to be here and gone in no time.


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## WLC

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

He's got something to gripe about.

The average queen lasts only six months, and there are only 500-700 breeder queens in the U.S. .

When you consider the large number of queens required each year for almond pollination alone, it becomes an issue.

Of course, beekeepers don't have a magic wand and can't simply make new/better breeder queens appear out of thin air.

My question would be, 'Where are you going to get new breeder queens to replace/augment the current ones?'


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

Where are you getting Cordovan queens from grumpy? Cordovan is not a strain, is it? Aren't there Cordovan Carniolans and Cordovan Italians.


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

WLC, you of all beekeepers should be agreeing with chemical exposure being a huge contributor to poor queen longevity


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



WLC said:


> He's got something to gripe about.
> 
> The average queen lasts only six months, and there are only 500-700 breeder queens in the U.S. .
> 
> When you consider the large number of queens required each year for almond pollination alone, it becomes an issue.
> 
> Of course, beekeepers don't have a magic wand and can't simply make new/better breeder queens appear out of thin air.
> 
> My question would be, 'Where are you going to get new breeder queens to replace/augment the current ones?'


You're not on a large scale...Most people are out for the gold in california, or somewhere getting a pollination check. They can get away with warm weather to requeen. The trouble is when california gets bad weather spells...What does that mean for already expendable queens? All I see is package bee & nuc & queen prices going up year after year. The southern u.s., in florida & lousiana had alot of rain early on(last year). 

I'd shake down one of the big queen breeders and make them breed stock out of the isolated yards that they keep tucked away from everybody else. The smart guys get away from the mainland and hit the islands...or just get mean bees that reproduce on their own.


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## WLC

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

"You're not on a large scale..."

Any large scale livestock breeding operation runs into the same problem: bottlenecking.

I've seen the same problem with other invertebrate stocks as well.

It's a common problem.


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## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

Mean nasty bees that swarm alot are intentionally pinched & requeened.


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## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

Are mean swarmy queens the ones that you would propagate, grumpy?


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## Sadler91

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

opcorn:


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## jmgi

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> Having to replace half the queens every year isn't good... I see it in the u.s with people I know... If you want to keep them alive all winter, you have to. You don't see a problem with having to replace half every year?


Annual requeening has been preached for 100 years, nothing has changed. There are many benefits to having a new queen in your hives every year. If you think today's commercial queens don't have long term productivity, then that's even more of a reason to requeen annually. I don't know what you are complaining about, sell three pounds of honey retail and you've got the money for a new queen. I think that's a very small price to pay to get a fresh queen in your hive that will produce a strong foraging force to gather a honey crop for you.


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## JSL

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

This is an interesting dilemma, propensity/intensity vs. longevity. It is kind of like the tortoise and the hare. The poultry industry encountered this dilemma probably 60 or so years ago. When selection efforts for high rate of laying were utilized efficiently, the number of eggs laid per year increased rapidly, to the point that the hen's body could not accommodate the productivity. 

I think we see something similar in honey bees. Not all strains are the same. Cordovan is not a breed or a strain, but a color mutation. It just so happens that they have a reputation for being broody because of the queen producers that made them popular. Longevity is very important in my selection program but it has to come with productivity. I work with Carniolans and Italians. All queens are raised, inseminated and managed under the same conditions, but there is a noticeable difference in longevity between the strains. The inseminated Italians may last into their second season and occasionally their third season. The inseminated Carniolans will last into the second, third, sometimes fourth and on very rare occasions, their 5th season. Keep in mind these are in full size production hives as productivity comes first in the commercial world.

Joe


----------



## The Honey Householder

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> Breeding your own isn't difficult...BUT from what stock do you breed when 99% of the bees out there are burnouts? Some bees last a few yrs through agricultural areas or not. Grumpybeeman needs grumpy bees!


I have the bee for you. There is this breeder in texas and they makes some dang hot bees.:bus Some years you just wish they would burnout.


----------



## Birdman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



The Honey Householder said:


> I have the bee for you. There is this breeder in texas and they makes some dang hot bees.:bus Some years you just wish they would burnout.


I worked Texas bee's last fall them girls were hot but they did produce more honey.


----------



## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

>>This is an interesting dilemma, propensity/intensity vs. longevity. <<

What exactly is the brood laying difference between an intensive laying queen and a queen that will give longevity? 
What brood rearing growth targets are you measuring to determine the difference between the two?


----------



## JSL

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

There are several parameters... I look at it as a queen only has so many eggs in her lifetime. Italians tend to lay more eggs per year than a Carniolan. Although Carniolans may have greater egg laying rates at given times of the year, say early spring, but far lower egg laying rates during the summer and winter. I am not saying one is better than the other as they both have their applications in the bee industry, just a different way of going about the business of developing and managing a population.


----------



## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

So your saying Cali queen ops are raising queens with less eggs?


----------



## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

Can someone tell me how many eggs are available in a queen at the beginning of her lifetime ?


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

Probably zero, until her ovaries are fully developed.


----------



## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

When I said beginning of her lifetime, I meant when she was introduced into the hive....


----------



## WLC

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

It's measured by the number and development of her ovarioles.


----------



## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

I'm guessing there will be more on hand than a queen would be able to use in a year, even if she happened to have an accelerated laying rate...


----------



## WLC

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

A well mated queen, with many well developed ovarioles, is equipped to lay an abundance of fertilized eggs well beyond its maximum lifespan.

Queen 'burnout' is likely caused by more than one issue.


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



Ian said:


> When I said beginning of her lifetime, I meant when she was introduced into the hive....


Ah, say what you mazeen paleeze.  How wuz eye 2 no? Let me go look it up, if I can find it.


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



Ian said:


> I'm guessing there will be more on hand than a queen would be able to use in a year, even if she happened to have an accelerated laying rate...


Egg cells develop, they aren't all there in a storage sac like the sperm storage sac, the spermatheca. The limited number of sperm has more to do w/ how many eggs are laid than how many eggs a queen can lay.


----------



## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

>>A well mated queen, with many well developed ovarioles, is equipped to lay an abundance of fertilized eggs well beyond its maximum lifespan.

Queen 'burnout' is likely caused by more than one issue.<<

I agree, that is what I have been saying. This argument about burnout in relation to meeting the pollinators needs to express growth is not a good argument


----------



## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

>>The limited number of sperm has more to do w/ how many eggs are laid than how many eggs a queen can lay.<<

Yes I agree, grump should be arguing poor matings and commercial queen rearing techniques rather than criticizing the breeding programs
That would be a sensible argument


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

I agree Ian. Did you notice he didn't define what he meant when I asked? Leastwise I didn't see an explanation.


----------



## Ian

sqkcrk said:


> Ah, say what you mazeen paleeze.  How wuz eye 2 no? Let me go look it up, if I can find it.


Ha, good for a chuckle


----------



## WLC

Gents, there's a lot of biology involved with how well a queen can lay eggs and how well sperm can be stored.

Those are issues facing queen breeders and producers.

It's non-trivial.


----------



## Ian

WLC said:


> Gents, there's a lot of biology involved with how well a queen can lay eggs and how well sperm can be stored.
> 
> Those are issues facing queen breeders and producers.
> 
> It's non-trivial.


but funny enough thats not the issue in this thread. Even if that queen doubled her egg out put (and the hive would actually be able to maintain that kind of growth) it wouldnt shorten her productive life time to a single year. 
Because as you mentioned, "A well mated queen, with many well developed ovarioles, is equipped to lay an abundance of fertilized eggs well beyond its maximum lifespan."


----------



## WLC

Right, sort of.

Ian, I've read the studies. It's a problem. Quantity over quality.

That's why gurus like Flottum say, "Get the queens you want, don't settle for the ones you get."

It's true.


----------



## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

Joe pointed out;
"The poultry industry encountered this dilemma probably 60 or so years ago. When selection efforts for high rate of laying were utilized efficiently, the number of eggs laid per year increased rapidly, to the point that the hen's body could not accommodate the productivity. "

Is that really the issue here? Are Californian queen breeders raising queens that out lay any other queen on the market? If so by how much?
and if this is a dilemma between intensity vs longevity, what laying targets are we trying to focus on here to maintain longevity?


----------



## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*

I believe this whole notion of queen burn is mearly an impression that comes from commercial beekeeping practices. She is laying those eggs regardless if she is sitting in a grove of Almonds or a wind swept northern field of canola. Is she burning out or is she actually succumbing to other influencing factors?


----------



## grumpybeeman

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



Ian said:


> Joe pointed out;
> "The poultry industry encountered this dilemma probably 60 or so years ago. When selection efforts for high rate of laying were utilized efficiently, the number of eggs laid per year increased rapidly, to the point that the hen's body could not accommodate the productivity. "
> 
> Is that really the issue here? Are Californian queen breeders raising queens that out lay any other queen on the market? If so by how much?
> and if this is a dilemma between intensity vs longevity, what laying targets are we trying to focus on here to maintain longevity?


No, Planned obsolescence is the issues here.


----------



## JSL

There is a bit more involved than just how many eggs are laid. I agree, Ian, there are many factors. I was just sharing my experience with longevity and type of bee. It is not that queen producers are selecting for strains with fewer eggs, but rather strains that have higher populations. Beekeepers are paid on frame count for pollination. Package producers are paid by the pound of bees. They want strains that will get there fast. This prolific, early reproduction comes at a cost to the queen and a colony. In my experience, queens that are selected for high egg laying rates for prolonged periods tend to "wear out" more quickly. Again, not saying it is good or bad, just a management style preference.

Queens emerge with all of the eggs they will produce in their life time. Eggs then develop and mature in the ovarioles as they are needed. How many eggs develop in a days time is function of many factors, such as queen age, day length, nutrition, number of ovarioles in each ovary. Then there is the fertilization aspect. A queen stores a given amount of semen. Initially she releases upwards of 50 sperm cells per egg, then gradually less as she ages and depletes her sperm reserves until the probability of fertilization is so low she begins producing drone brood in worker cells. If she lives that long.


----------



## JSL

Ian I wish I had a good concise answer to this question. I think it is a muddled area at best, but one that is getting some attention. If we could all agree on one type/style of bee that worked for every aspect of the industry it would sure make selection efforts a lot more focused!


----------



## Ian

JSL said:


> It is not that queen producers are selecting for strains with fewer eggs, but rather strains that have higher populations. ...They want strains that will get there fast. This prolific, early reproduction comes at a cost to the queen and a colony. In my experience, queens that are selected for high egg laying rates for prolonged periods tend to "wear out" more quickly.


so if I understand you correctly, your saying its the beekeepers practice of pushing that colony to produce that high continual laying rate which wears out the queen, rather than the breeders pushing out a queen only good for one year


----------



## Ian

JSL said:


> Ian I wish I had a good concise answer to this question. I think it is a muddled area at best, but one that is getting some attention. If we could all agree on one type/style of bee that worked for every aspect of the industry it would sure make selection efforts a lot more focused!


No, your input is helping clarify this issue for me. I hear alot of this kind of "burnout" issue from many beekeepers. 

Im in the cattle business, and we develop breeding stock to suit our cattle buyers needs. Not everyone is looking for the same thing

This queen issue is no different, the breeders are developing a queen to suit the demands of intensive beekeeping practices. They are developing stock to perform exactly as the buyers intend them to perform, except the queen buyers here want the whole basket and their neighbors too. I would wager the performance of a queen 30 years ago wouldnt hold a candle to the queens produced today. I say that in certainty as 30 years ago there was a tenth of the disease, chemical and production pressure there is today. Count on your hand all the demands put on queens today and you will run out of fingers. If we get queens that perform the way we want them, and the only problem is that she doesnt last into the thrid year, you can say at least she made it into that second year for you.

A lot of talk about inferior stock being produced. I say its more so beekeepers not knowing what is actually happening in their hives to begin with


----------



## Ian

hey grump, chew on that one for a while!


----------



## grumpybeeman

Ian said:


> hey grump, chew on that one for a while!


Pretty much what I already know but in more detailed technical terms. What do you do with the almond bees when they need a home after the pollination? Throw them in packages with queens that are fit for the almond cycle(or some other big ag demand). Some of the larger pollinating beekeepers would rather not deal with honey production, but collect that pollinating check from the broker every year. There are beekeepers out there who stand for the personal bottling-distribution of our products and not engauge in the barrel push. 

There is no ccd only QCD. There are limits to how far livestock and/or bees can be pushed. If you like requeening every year, then keep playing the package bee and almond game. But don't get mad when you loose your backsides when the weather catches up to the california-south u.s. big ag practices of pollination bees. There are quite a few beekeepers that raise bees for their own business and for honey production.

No gold in california...If the weather is just right, it will push back this throw away practice/cycle. Best of luck up there in Canada, Ian...you're not too far off with the weather. 

Is it such an alien concept to think that it's not about the barrel-pollination...and that some of us truely enjoy the good stuff that the bees bring back in from different nectar sources?

How much of this california almond practice-selection breeding has ruined strains of bees that have varying tongue lengths(bees able to gather nectar from different flowers than others).... Caucasian bee? Who wants a bee with a longer tongue when it glues up the hive with tons of propolis. If they work different types of flowers than the almond bees.... But those aren't pollination bees, are they?....


----------



## WLC

"What do you do with the almond bees when they need a home after the pollination? Throw them in packages with queens that are fit for the almond cycle(or some other big ag demand). "

With drought in California combined with a warm winter, combined with the cold weather stretching into the South...

the machine falls apart.


----------



## grumpybeeman

WLC said:


> "What do you do with the almond bees when they need a home after the pollination? Throw them in packages with queens that are fit for the almond cycle(or some other big ag demand). "
> 
> With drought in California combined with a warm winter, combined with the cold weather stretching into the South...
> 
> the machine falls apart.


While the big outifts in california(and elsewhere) collect their insurance checks, and the poor sucker running bees for honey production(barrels or like the old ways of farm to table in the jar)...get screwed with higher package bee costs & queen replacements.

WLC have you noticed any differences in nectar sources being brought back, based on bee breed?...Tree blossom vs clover let's say.


----------



## sqkcrk

grumpybeeman said:


> Pretty much what I already know but in more detailed technical terms. What do you do with the almond bees when they need a home after the pollination? Throw them in packages with queens that are fit for the almond cycle(or some other big ag demand). Some of the larger pollinating beekeepers would rather not deal with honey production, but collect that pollinating check from the broker every year. There are beekeepers out there who stand for the personal bottling-distribution of our products and not engauge in the barrel push.


I don'tm know how many almond pollinators shake packages from their hives. Seems like there are all sorts of beekeepers who send hives to CA and then run them for honey too.

Your Profile says "Occupation: Beekeeper". How large an operation and for how long?


----------



## WLC

In NYC, pollen comes first. This year, plenty of clover because of the cool wet summer.

The Beeweavers did well for me.


----------



## Ian

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> Best of luck up there in Canada, Ian...you're not too far off with the weather.


Grump, I get my queens from Cali land, last year I produced 210 lbs per hive and they look fantastic in the wintering shed right now. You gota manage the conditions as they hit you, otherwise your going to sink... 
cheers!


----------



## grumpybeeman

I've heard very good things about texas bees WLC Do you have them fill a super on the maple early spring from time to time?


----------



## Ian

ha no maple honey here, I build build build on that early nectar gold


----------



## grumpybeeman

Ian said:


> ha no maple honey here, I build build build on that early nectar gold


How long have you been beekeeping?


----------



## Ian

not as long as many on this list
Im self taught, been in it for bout 15 years. 
We also ranch a few hundred cattle and crop a few thousand acres of land


----------



## grumpybeeman

Ian said:


> not as long as many on this list
> Im self taught, been in it for bout 15 years.
> We also ranch a few hundred cattle and crop a few thousand acres of land


So you have the once a year replacement queens, BUT you don't have to tend to rapeseed, corn, soybeans, etc. And you take your bees south to warmer climates right?...Where they build up.....early?


----------



## Ian

ya I manage the bees, but Im not to far away from the rest of the farm as its workload can get extremely overwhelming. 

I guess you can consider me a well rounded contributor to the list.

where as your speaking of once per year queen replacements, I speak of one to two year replacements. I dont keep track of my stock but I do replace 50% every year. Anything that hiccups in the spring gets pinched. There is too much riding on our short season. where as my queen would then sit idle for 5 months of the year. 
you see what I mean? If you want to see longevity, have them sit motionless in complete darkness in a shed for four to five months of our winter. anything that isnt hardy dies


----------



## grumpybeeman

Winterizing in temp controlled room....yup. How are they bred...Artificially? The growing seasons are about like alasaka, aren' they?


----------



## Ian

ha, you have never been to Manitoba in January before, have you...

>>How are they bred...Artificially?<<

are you kidding me?


----------



## grumpybeeman

Are you telling me tlhat no one sells artificially bred queens? I could have sworn seeing bee journal articles about it. Are your lb averages coming out of the q4hs?


----------



## RAK

grumpybeeman said:


> Are you telling me tlhat no one sells artificially bred queens? I could have sworn seeing bee journal articles about it. Are your lb averages coming out of the q4hs?


Good luck finding a large order of artificially bred queens. Producing such queens takes lots of time and effort.


----------



## grumpybeeman

RAK said:


> Good luck finding a large order of artificially bred queens. Producing such queens takes lots of time and effort.



Just like finding orders of other queens on the right or wrong day depending on what cranky old woman answers the phone or not. Everything is a go until you mention where you want certain orders shipped, which are blacklisted for postal delivery(not by the post office but by the business not wanting to deal with certain regions where the po customer service is unreliable). I've had the same troubles with certain post offices through the city trying to mail off buckets of honey and having disgruntled knuckleheads hollering at me that I can't bring 5 gallon buckets to into the post office, and trying to bag me hazmat feeds because granulated honey is a liquid. You learn ways around it, so I can't blame some of the places for being particular. It's the bs factor of having break off numbers of hives that get x'd out of orders because at certain times of the year big outfits don't deal with certain types of orders unless they feel like it...Other times getting a queen bee from some places comes with an earfull of great knowledge from the same breeder. Getting queen bees is like chasing nectar flows, and watching what flower opens.

Cherry picking on package bee orders is always a fun one to get around. Young fuzzy bees or old bees...anybody can tell which is which with a good eye. I had a major supplier try send abunch of 2 lb packages(italians) home with me when I ordered/payed for 3's and had the receipts. 3's with carni queens... I went to the middle of the stack where all the young fuzzy shake bees/carnis were and went home with what I payed for. I haven't been back since.

I could toss names around but it wouldn't make for good business relationships in the future. It makes sense that some businesses move overseas, to other countries, etc..and that certain beekeepers send their stuff across the border to avoid american big ag practices/and u.s. government corn-friendly regs. Those guys know who they are that don't want to deal with 250-300 package orders, or even have the common courtesy of returning a phone call.

Some suppliers out in california/breeders send pure junk up to certain areas of the u.s.... Thousands of packages and queen bees later.


----------



## RAK

Are you under the impression that all almonds pollinators have burnt out queen that are genetically bred for pollinating almonds and nothing more? Thousands of hives come from Idaho, Montana, and Dakotas that produce clover honey all summer long. These bees are never shaken into packages. Most of these hives never get requeened, yet these 20k operations make 2/3 of their income off of honey. Lack of forage is a bigger problem. I know plenty of large California queen breeders who send their bees to Montana for sweet clover honey and then select breeders that produced over 200lb honey. Olivarez, Park Burris queens, and Parks queens just to name a few.


----------



## grumpybeeman

Thousands, that's the key word. Big breeders give big buyers good bees. The rest of us get junk... surprise surprise. lack of forrage I agree with. Big multi thousand colony operations get the cherry picked colonies, and the best queens first come first served. That's a no brainer. HOWEVER, you guys that are lucky enough to be isolated in mountain areas, islands, etc don't get effected by the big ag and other factors...as bad. Catch 22. 

Theres alot of people getting screwed over with bad bees, and short deals...But no one will address that because it's bad for business.

Really good bees used to be sent up here to Wi....Some people still have good ones so I hear(up north). If I were in the business of selling package bees and queens I'd send large amounts to select areas in the country(mountain, isolated, etc)...And I'd make sure whoever bought my bees would talk a good story about how great they are. Theres nothing wrong with yard selection, migration, etc... But watch closely....Once you start having queens that last 7-8 months...It will only get worse whether you like it or not....Then when a better business opportunity comes along to start up a new package bee sales location, migratory beekeeper with thousands of hives, or new area untested for hive yards...Certain breeders down in california will send you a load of doo doo and you'll be in a mess. I've seen this with several several thousand packages being sent to wisconsin from CERTAIN breeders in california. I choose not to name specific people, and would rather let people learn for themselves based on observation.

Take 2 packages of bees...One with old bees mostly...And the occasional shake with lots of young fuzzy bees...and see which one does better by far.


----------



## Haraga

Grumpy, man up and name some names. Or are you scared of taking some heat?


----------



## grumpybeeman

Haraga said:


> Grumpy, man up and name some names. Or are you scared of taking some heat?


Talk to the people locally in your area and see what they have to say on who what where. You'll figure it out in a hurry. What the news programs don't do is put out info on where bad batches of bees originate. In this world of modern technology, you'd think we'd be able to bee-line to the source of the problem...No pun intended.


----------



## Haraga

Grumpy, with all due respect, you are the one making accusations about events that happened to you. Please name names so that others can provide their input. Up to this point we don't know specifically who you are talking. There may be others here that have a different experience with these same people.


----------



## grumpybeeman

You can name names, but it's just a big smoke screen that will get put out in response to naming problem sources, on how it's something else other than bad bees. The problem with bee die-offs is that people don't call things for what they are. Bad genetics from select breeding and garbage in california. Bad weather in california/drought? Watch regardless of how bad the breeding issues are...Orders will be shipped like usual to a fresh troop of unknowing souls.


----------



## Haraga

grumpybeeman said:


> Talk to the people locally in your area and see what they have to say on who what where. You'll figure it out in a hurry. What the news programs don't do is put out info on where bad batches of bees originate. In this world of modern technology, you'd think we'd be able to bee-line to the source of the problem...No pun intended.


Grumpy, just tell us the names of the people that are putting out the bad batches of bees. It could save me a lot of time and effort as the nearest beekeepers are at least an hour away from me. I am puzzled as to why you are scared to name them. 
All you need to do is say "hey folks, X,Y and Z are putting out bad batches of bees so buyer beware". Is that so hard to do?


----------



## grumpybeeman

Send one guy tons of good queens, or a package bee reseller good orders, etc in a few places, then call slander on the guy that points out 90 perecent of the rest of the crap the breeder sells. Some expert bug doctor will come along and say look at this government grant, it's mites because we say so. Big ag is corn beans or bees from california. I wish you guys the best of luck in canada, if you're messing around buying california bees. Can anyone say planned obsolescence bees?


----------



## Haraga

grumpybeeman said:


> Talk to the people locally in your area and see what they have to say on who what where. You'll figure it out in a hurry. What the news programs don't do is put out info on where bad batches of bees originate. In this world of modern technology, you'd think we'd be able to bee-line to the source of the problem...No pun intended.





grumpybeeman said:


> Send one guy tons of good queens, or a package bee reseller good orders, etc in a few places, then call slander on the guy that points out 90 perecent of the rest of the crap the breeder sells. Some expert bug doctor will come along and say look at this government grant, it's mites because we say so. Big ag is corn beans or bees from california. I wish you guys the best of luck in canada, if you're messing around buying california bees. Can anyone say planned obsolescence bees?


Who are you talking about?


----------



## grumpybeeman

Does anyone have suggestions for bees that don't burn out? Excluding operations that push out thousands of packages.


----------



## Haraga

grumpybeeman said:


> Does anyone have suggestions for bees that don't burn out? Excluding operations that push out thousands of packages.


Yes


----------



## jmgi

grumpybeeman said:


> I've heard very good things about texas bees WLC Do you have them fill a super on the maple early spring from time to time?


To get supers of maple honey you need the right weather at the right time. Any well overwintered colony can store a surplus of maple if the weather is ideal, which doesn't happen often at that time of year. Maple trees yield an enormous amount of nectar, its actually a great honey plant.


----------



## sqkcrk

grumpybeeman said:


> Are you telling me tlhat no one sells artificially bred queens? I could have sworn seeing bee journal articles about it. Are your lb averages coming out of the q4hs?


You ask more questions than you answer. Your questions reveal, it seems, a lack of general knowledge of a number of things and emotional prejudice about some others.

Tell us something about yourself, please, your background, education, experience, etc. Your questions seem like a one way street.

I think you think you got a raw deal from someone somewhere and you found that beesource is a good place to rant. You seem to be a pissed off individual. I don't see this Thread contributing anything positive, not even a warning specific to a problem. Best wishes.


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: Time to get nervous #3*



grumpybeeman said:


> Doubt my theory?...Find the 70-80 yr old beekeeper in your area and ask him how long the queens used to last. For even more insight find the old coot in europe that had bees before ww2 started, and that is still keeping bees... See what the new strains of bigger better gentler bees are doing to the eurozone. Germany-france-etc the california game they play is to take the bees to Italy. The guys that have the grumpier bees that were left alone and not select bred to be better pollinators are doing quite well being left in the northern climates.


I don't disagree with your point. but there is more to it than just if queens live longer. not long before your 70 or 80 years period they killed entire colonies every year to harvest their honey. not much of a longevity issue with the queen with that method. The primary method of increase was capturing swarms and that was pretty much it. It was a very slow process to build up an apiary unless you purchased colonies. Honey harvests as recently as the mid 1800's or even a bit sooner than that where not large enough for anyone to consider keeping bees as means of income.

I am not so sure that a queen lasting more than a season under the expectations that they have on them at todays standards is reasonable. 

I am just saying is it the queen that changed? or the expectation?


----------



## The Honey Householder

*What is a package bees and queens??????*

Reading this thread is almost useless. I don't only replace all my queens each year, but I replace every hive with a package. I see the package bees for what they are, SEEDS. 
Only in it for honey production. Some people complain about the price of bees (queens) and some complain about the price of honey. All I have to say is. Beeing a beekeeper (honey producer) is GOOD!!!!! opcorn:34 years in the business, and we are still in business with the high package prices and high honey prices. 

Some say you get what you pay for, but with bees you still have to work them.

Work the bees, and don't let them work you up.:s

My complain is with this $5 bag of chips I'm going to eat while I watch the super bowl. Just a good thing I retail honey at $8 a lb. so I can afford my chips.opcorn:


----------



## WLC

grumpybeeman said:


> I've heard very good things about texas bees WLC Do you have them fill a super on the maple early spring from time to time?


Our urban forest and horticulture is quite mixed here in NYC (Manhattan).

I've had issues with BeeWeaver queens as well as others. The great thing about BeeWeaver is the excellent service.

I also like that they're 'organic', and I especially like their breeding/mating model. It's good that they combined their breeder queen lines into one. Open mating in Texas also allows for some interesting mixes in worker morphotypes.

I can say that I know more about their genetics because much of it has been studied in the scientific literature.

However, I think that it's safe to say that even good queen breeders/producers will have some duds. Some more than others depending on the local conditions.

As you've mentioned, the drought in California is going to have a major impact on beekeeping (and also our food security).

We don't know how seriously queens, packages, and managed pollinators will fare for the upcoming season.

The California drought can't help but to have a major knock on effect on U.S. beekeeping and beyond (Canada).


----------



## Ian

*Re: What is a package bees and queens??????*

>>I don't only replace all my queens each year, but I replace every hive with a package. I see the package bees for what they are, SEEDS. <<

A beekeeping model that was once practiced here, til we lost the availability of US packages and 70 cent honey

It actually is the only sensible way to produce honey up north


----------



## Honey-4-All

*Re: What is a package bees and queens??????*



Ian said:


> It actually is the only sensible way to produce honey up north


Sorry to be so lost but What is* the only sensible way* in your location..... Overwinter or packages?


----------



## clyderoad

grumpybeeman said:


> There is no ccd only QCD. There are limits to how far livestock and/or bees can be pushed. If you like requeening every year, then keep playing the package bee and almond game. But don't get mad when you loose your backsides when the weather catches up to the california-south u.s. big ag practices of pollination bees. There are quite a few beekeepers that raise bees for their own business and for honey production.
> 
> Is it such an alien concept to think that it's not about the barrel-pollination...and that some of us truely enjoy the good stuff that the bees bring back in from different nectar sources?


As per your post#100 'that people don't call things for what they are' :

" But don't get mad when you loose your backsides" > you are the only one mad at everything here, and who is "losing their backsides"? you?


"There are quite a few beekeepers that raise bees for their own business and for honey production." > Spend some time doing it for yourself instead of talking about it. Solve your own problem.
Re-read your own words and then follow them. Raise your own bees, if you know how to. Then you won't have to deal with the package and queen producers out there.

(But I don't think all this is about your so called "bad bees" is it?)

Best of luck to you in WI, you will need it.


----------



## Ian

Honey-4-All said:


> Sorry to be so lost but What is* the only sensible way* in your location..... Overwinter or packages?


Packages... 
That was a "use to be" comment as my post was reflecting off of honey householder's comment


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## Lauri

As a small time local queen producer, not only have I had experience with Ca. packages and nucs , but I hear from all folks all over my area & their struggle with new bees. Year after year after year. They keep buying them from the same suppliers, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. 
These folks want the cheapest bees they can find and never ask any questions. Every year the process repeats its self, I just shake my head in amazement. 

But there is Nothing to get 'mad' about here. 

Of course the commercial guys are going to have genetics in their hives that best suit there needs. 
Of course they can't predict where their nucs and packages will end up and in what climate.
Of course they can't control the weather or exposures from the pollination industry.
Of course there are some who do their best at providing a great product, as well as those that just get rid of junk.

That is the nature of a very difficult industry and that is the product they ultimately sell. 

In my opinion It is up to the PURCHASER to be proactive in the management of the new bees to assure they are genetically compatible with his/her specific climate, genetically predisposed to perform in line with your specific goals, and to be sure their new environment is as toxin and pest free as possible. 

Like I have said many times "Understanding the challenges & management methods of the commercials will help you understand how to manage your new bees. 

My advise to hobbyists is to: 
- Requeen with local genetics
-cycle out frames of comb that may have been exposed to commercial pollination/commercial crops and all the potential exposures that go along with them.
- treat for mites to clean up the hive and give it a better chance to thrive right from the start. 

Any health or performance expectations of the new beekeeper are strictly assumptions made on their part. If you don't know where you bees came from and the background of their management, genetic traits, health and possible exposures, you'd better be proactive in their care. It is not the responsibility of the seller to educate the purchaser. 

Or just put them in a box and hope for the best...

Quote from Honey House Holder
" I see the package bees for what they are, SEEDS. "

EXACTLY! Nice phrase. I will remember that one.

That's my 2 cents.. but please correct me if I am wrong.


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## WLC

Shaking bees into 3 lb packages is one thing.

It's the quality of the queens, and the impact that commercial demands for queens are having on that quality.

We're still stuck with queens that last an average of 6 months, only 700-500 breeder queens, and they're mostly completely dependent on treatments for productivity.

It's that kind of a bottleneck that's non-trivial.

Lauri, compare what you do to produce queens, to what an operation that produces many thousands is doing. We know what the issues are.


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## soupcan

All this on a Sunday morning???
Me thinks someone needs a happy meal for lunch!!!!


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## Roland

And now a viewpoint from another Cheesehead:

Lauri wrote:
They keep buying them from the same suppliers, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. 

Sounds like the definition of insanity, but I am not an expert.

Householder is right, a package is "Seed". The queen is produced ECONOMICALLY at a time when there is great demand. Hope and pray they make it through 2 cycles for brood. After that, It is the beekeepers responsibility. By then, local drones are available, and local replacement queens from queens of KNOWN history can be raised. 

As for the comparison of queens of today vs. the 60's? I would rather have today's QUALITY queens, purchased after June 1, than the queens from the 60's. Today's Cordovan and NWC are explosive brooders, and last an average of 2 years vs. the 3 years in the 60's(per the Bull of the Woods), which is a fair trade off. 

It is possible our results are atypical, due to our not using any miticides. 

If your queens are not lasting a year, I would look inside the hive, not outside. 

Crazy Roland


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## babybee

There are lots of commercial beekeepers that would lease you all the bees you will ever want. This solves your problem as any queen that crashes later will not affect you. When I lease my bees to beekeepers I pay for trucking both ways any feed needed and we split the honey. For you Grumpy, this would be a great option.


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## Keith Jarrett

babybee said:


> When I lease my bees to beekeepers I pay for trucking both ways and we split the honey..


BBB, remember honey is north of two bucks a pound.


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## grumpybeeman

jmgi said:


> To get supers of maple honey you need the right weather at the right time. Any well overwintered colony can store a surplus of maple if the weather is ideal, which doesn't happen often at that time of year. Maple trees yield an enormous amount of nectar, its actually a great honey plant.


It sounds like norway spruce blossom & wild raspberry.


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## grumpybeeman

WLC said:


> Shaking bees into 3 lb packages is one thing.
> 
> It's the quality of the queens, and the impact that commercial demands for queens are having on that quality.
> 
> We're still stuck with queens that last an average of 6 months, only 700-500 breeder queens, and they're mostly completely dependent on treatments for productivity.
> 
> It's that kind of a bottleneck that's non-trivial.
> 
> Lauri, compare what you do to produce queens, to what an operation that produces many thousands is doing. We know what the issues are.


That's one of the most sensible things someones mentioned in quite awhile. What insane is that people are shunned if they ask questions, and make observations. If you're disgruntled about quality, and seek answers to the problem...It's obviously only 1 person and no one else. The theme? Keep buying bees year after year without questions. And don't dare ask, what's the problem with bees dying.


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## BeeGhost

Grumpy, would you be willing to pay $500 or more for a single hardy queen whos offspring are mean as all heck?? Hot bees suck to work with and work around. You say these bees are too gentle these days, so tell me why this is a bad thing?? Do you realize that backyard beekeeping is becoming very popular these days and that a tremendous amount of packages make their way into back yards in urban areas around this nation? Do you realize more than half these people don't want to do anything much other than dump some bees into a box and collect honey at the end of the season, they don't care if the bees succumb to mites and abscond, because guess what, they will buy another package next year. They want bees that are not going to sting everything within 100 yards of the house. I for one would not love working with bees much if everytime I went to the yard I was covered head to toe with stinging bees. 

If you do not think your California queens are performing up to par, buy local queens or better yet, quit griping and graft your own, then you can complain all you want when your own queens fail and you have no one to blame.

Todays world is a lot different then "back in the day", pollination is a huge chunk of change in a beekeepers pocket, and with all the almond orchards in CA and more being planted every year, its not going away anytime soon. Honey is paying pretty good these days also, from what I read, but like what was mentioned, vast amounts of forage areas are being turned into crops or housing, not to mention the wars over what prime land is left!!

As for your queen thing again, would any good business man buy a $500 queen to pollinate with, or buy a $20 queen that will brood up enough to make it through almonds and a honey crop? Not to mention those back yard beekeepers who just want to get some honey they can brag about to their friends, a lot of them are willing to drop a measly $20 on a queen than buy a $500 breeder that they would probably roll between frames anyhow.

You are not going to get both quality and quantity...............aint going to happen with ANYTHING these days. New cars break down, new TV's go out and so on. You can go to Walmart and buy a $5 watch that will tell you what time it is until it breaks, or you can buy a Rolex for $25,000 that will serve the same purpose..........but they both don't bode well when they are run over!! Difference is........$5 is a lot easier to come up with than $25,000.

I bought mid-summer queens from a breeder here in CA last summer for $16 each, and guess what, they are ALL still alive as I type, and built up nicely. Of the 8 hives I lost, two were from last years swarm catches (including a very hot hive, thank God) and the other 6 were from hives that had queens in them that were just over a year old.........queens I let them make themselves by doing walk away splits. So who made the worst queens in my yard...........the bees themselves!!!


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## grumpybeeman

The bees are bred to be crap, that's all there is to it.


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## WLC

"Todays world is a lot different then "back in the day", pollination is a huge chunk of change in a beekeepers pocket, and with all the almond orchards in CA and more being planted every year, its not going away anytime soon."

BeeGhost, last I've read, the drought is intensifying in California. We don't know as yet how long it will last.

There's something remarkably unsustainable about agriculture in the Central Valley of California.

Maybe it is 'going away soon'.


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## Lauri

WLC said:


> We know what the issues are.


I know folks on this thread do. It's most hobbyists that don't. _They _are who I was referring to. 

It's because they don't know, they expect too much and are many times oblivious to the facts. Including the fact the demand for bees _very early_ in the season by the* consumer*, leads to queens reared in less than perfect conditions at times to meet that demand..
That IS usually what they want...Cheap, Early bees. Yet there is no thought of what it takes to produce them and the potential scacrifices that must be made to do so.

I can see both sides but do feel it is mostly the fault of the consumer for repeatedly failing to take the steps necessary to assure the health and vigor of their new colonies. It's not hard to do, but it must be done, unless you're the gambling type.


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## grumpybeeman

Lauri said:


> I know YOU do. It's the hobbyists that don't. _They _are who I was referring to. It's because they don't know, they expect too much and are many times oblivious to the facts. Including the fact the demand for bees _very early_ in the season by the* consumer*, leads to queens reared in less that perfect conditions at times..
> That IS what they want...That is simply what they get.


You're a very honest person Lauri. Many regards. 

Some guys don't make the same mistakes over & over. If hives die out, beekeepers need packages or nucs. Packages tend to be junky... So beekeepers requeen packages with a batch of queens. A good practice is to order batches of queens from different sources(when you're dealing with large numbers of colonies), that way if one guy sends you junk, or weather hurts the quality control on queens, etc...You've got a better chance than ordering off of one person.

That's my point with all the "grumpy" issues that I'm addressing. It's completely dishonest what's being done to the beginners/newcomers. Who can afford a team of scientists & hours of research doing feasibility studies, just to document legally what beekeepers already know. The dishonest breeders in cali know that the majority of beekeepers can't afford to bring decisive legal action against crooked suppliers...and shut the bums down...Much less have the time to pursue it...when we as beekeepers are working overtime to keep our stuff alive and to make a living. One thing is for certain...The crooks in california can only push the bees so hard, before nature shuts them down. 

Breeding queens for short life spans and getting yourself a good drought is like building a house on the flood plain. Sooner or later it will happen.


----------



## Lauri

I do apologize for posting on this forum. It is not my area of expertise, I am not commercial. Just my observaions, since I do deal with this topic every year...Many panicked phone calls and bummed people.


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## clyderoad

grumpybeeman said:


> That's my point with all the "grumpy" issues that I'm addressing. It's completely dishonest what's being done to the beginners/newcomers. Who can afford a team of scientists & hours of research doing feasibility studies, just to document legally what beekeepers already know. The dishonest breeders in cali know that the majority of beekeepers can't afford to bring decisive legal action against crooked suppliers...and shut the bums down...Much less have the time to pursue it...when we as beekeepers are working overtime to keep our stuff alive and to make a living. One thing is for certain...The crooks in california can only push the bees so hard, before nature shuts them down.


Nope. 
I find it hard to believe the whole point here is to be the guardian angel for unsuspecting newcomers. You have ignored way to many comments by those who have suggested alternatives.
Instead of pollination bees for newcomers wanting to make honey, it seems that you have another ax to grind.


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## grumpybeeman

clyderoad said:


> Nope.
> I find it hard to believe the whole point here is to be the guardian angel for unsuspecting newcomers. You have ignored way to many comments by those who have suggested alternatives.
> Instead of pollination bees for newcomers wanting to make honey, it seems that you have another ax to grind.


Is there something wrong with telling the truth about what most bees are bred for these days?


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## sqkcrk

grumpybeeman said:


> The bees are bred to be crap, that's all there is to it.


This statement makes no economic sense at all. People who raise queens would be going out of business doing that.


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## grumpybeeman

sqkcrk said:


> This statement makes no economic sense at all. People who raise queens would be going out of business doing that.



Where have you been...Beekeepers are going out of business in this country, or retiring because of bee issues. People raising queens for the almond pollination breed them to burn out. It's good for the queen breeder to keep selling queens.


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## sqkcrk

Lauri said:


> unless you're the gambling type.


Or the grumbling type.


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## JohnK and Sheri

Lauri, you are of course, quit welcome to post here.

I do, however, want to jump in and disagree with what has been put forward: that there is some sort of planned obsolescence conspiracy by California queen rearers to supply substandard queens to an unsuspecting public. One can rail against lack of mite resistant queens or short lifespans all one wants but that doesn't justify the slander I am hearing. We use the very same queens as we put in our packages and nucs and are not seeing this issue. So, what does that say? Are we somehow magic? We here at Honey Glow Farm have sold honeybee units to hundreds of customers annually for many years, with queens from both California and Florida producers. We have few complaints, and while many hobbyists need replacement bees, most understand the real reason for this. Not junk queens but inexperience, nonexistent swarm control, starvation, no pest control, winter survival problems, etc. 

If you are not happy with California queen producers, I suggest you vote with your feet and go elsewhere. If the problem exists no matter where you go, perhaps it is management issues. 
There are small queen breeders in the country that one can spend time researching and then patronize. 
Remember, this is the COMMERCIAL board and some of us are happy with the queens available. There IS a queen and queen breeders forum which might have some suggestions for queens more suitable to small scale beekeepers.
Sheri


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## grumpybeeman

sqkcrk said:


> Or the grumbling type.


It's not good business for queen breeders when people talk about burnout bees/bad genetic queens? Is that it?


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## sqkcrk

Lauri said:


> I do apologize for posting on this forum. It is not my area of expertise, I am not commercial.


You are in good company Lauri.


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## sqkcrk

grumpybeeman said:


> Is there something wrong with telling the truth about what most bees are bred for these days?


Yes, where are your statistics to back up such a bold and all encompassing statement? And where is your solution? Your realistic and practical solution. We live in today, in "back in the day", but now. What's your solution to your problem?

You need to change the way you look at things, since you can't change what you are looking at.


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## TalonRedding

WLC said:


> "What do you do with the almond bees when they need a home after the pollination? Throw them in packages with queens that are fit for the almond cycle(or some other big ag demand). "
> 
> With drought in California combined with a warm winter, combined with the cold weather stretching into the South...
> 
> the machine falls apart.


That's exactly the problem, or at least part of it anyway. California has always been drought prone...just look at the native plant species and their characteristics. Take into account that the majority of forage in that area is nothing but artificial in the sense that it wouldn't exist without the irrigation systems farmers have put in place. You have artificially occurring forage in a climate that would not otherwise support it. The soil there is early volcanic, which is great for growing produce as long as water is available.If it wasn't for irrigation, that region of California would not be largely considered by Beekeepers IMHO. 
The machine has already fallen apart.....we are just keeping it running with whatever is left and suffices to get by for another season. Next year will be the REAL test unless the snow pack bounces back. It's a scary situation for sure and I wish everyone out that way the best. 
Btw.....good thread. The posts have been very informative as well.


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## grumpybeeman

When package bees are trucked to wisconsin...Some areas, beekeepers get shipped pure junk. I've seen it but for the lack of civility and legal reasons will not mention certain breeder-package bee dealer names in california. I know and have seen THOUSANDS of packages coming from beloved(to some) california breeders name emitted that are, were, and will be pure junk bees bred for almond pollination. You sheri have good bees because you raise your own queens, and one should consider getting bees from jon & sheri. I can speak for this from personal experience, and by good recommendations from highly thorough and professional beekeepers in southern wi. Because a breeder sends a few beekeepers in wi good queens, packages, etc...Does not mean that the majority of people don't get screwed with short life span queens. Some customers get treated, while others are trashed and on what I call bee life support...Buying queens & packages year after year.


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## Fusion_power

Grumpy, it is not acceptable to deliberately disparage a business someone has spent years developing. In this case, I'm caught between agreeing with you that many of the queens available today are "pollination" queens that are extremely unthrifty and incapable of wintering and the alternate that I know several queen breeders who are doing the best they can to put hardy survivor stock on the market.

From your posts, it is obvious you have never produced queens. At this point, you have moved from being a person with a legitimate gripe to a person who obstinately refuses to look for a solution. Go raise some queens. See how well you can do in the business. Better yet, read a few books on queen rearing such as the one by Taber or by Laidlaw & Eckert.


----------



## grumpybeeman

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, where are your statistics to back up such a bold and all encompassing statement? And where is your solution? Your realistic and practical solution. We live in today, in "back in the day", but now. What's your solution to your problem?
> 
> You need to change the way you look at things, since you can't change what you are looking at.


Mother nature is taking care of the problem in cali right now.


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## clyderoad

grumpybeeman said:


> When package bees are trucked to wisconsin...Some areas, beekeepers get shipped pure junk. I've seen it but for the lack of civility and legal reasons will not mention certain breeder-package bee dealer names in california. I know and have seen THOUSANDS of packages coming from beloved(to some) california breeders name emitted that are, were, and will be pure junk bees bred for almond pollination. You sheri have good bees because you raise your own queens, and one should consider getting bees from jon & sheri. I can speak for this from personal experience, and by good recommendations from highly thorough and professional beekeepers in southern wi. Because a breeder sends a few beekeepers in wi good queens, packages, etc...Does not mean that the majority of people don't get screwed with short life span queens. Some customers get treated, while others are trashed and on what I call bee life support...Buying queens & packages year after year.


I'd like to hear about your personal experiences with buying these junk bees. How about it? It'll help clear up the fact from the fiction.


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## sqkcrk

grumpybeeman said:


> Mother nature is taking care of the problem in cali right now.


What question does this statement answer?


----------



## grumpybeeman

TalonRedding said:


> That's exactly the problem, or at least part of it anyway. California has always been drought prone...just look at the native plant species and their characteristics. Take into account that the majority of forage in that area is nothing but artificial in the sense that it wouldn't exist without the irrigation systems farmers have put in place. You have artificially occurring forage in a climate that would not otherwise support it. The soil there is early volcanic, which is great for growing produce as long as water is available.If it wasn't for irrigation, that region of California would not be largely considered by Beekeepers IMHO.
> The machine has already fallen apart.....we are just keeping it running with whatever is left and suffices to get by for another season. Next year will be the REAL test unless the snow pack bounces back. It's a scary situation for sure and I wish everyone out that way the best.
> Btw.....good thread. The posts have been very informative as well.


VERY VERY GOOD POINT. Man is pushing things too far/big agriculture. Some of those guys in cali are no different than big corn farmers....Maxing out the land, and depleting it....Or maxing out the bees and depleting the quality of bees.


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## jim lyon

The commercial queen breeders I know are honorable hard working folks doing their best to deliver a good product at a fair price. The tone of this thread dosent really deserve any further comment. Sorry for any contribution that I made to this thread as well.


----------



## Honey-4-All

WLC said:


> "Todays world is a lot different then "back in the day", pollination is a huge chunk of change in a beekeepers pocket, and with all the almond orchards in CA and more being planted every year, its not going away anytime soon."
> 
> BeeGhost, last I've read, the drought is intensifying in California. We don't know as yet how long it will last.
> 
> There's something remarkably unsustainable about agriculture in the Central Valley of California.
> 
> Maybe it is 'going away soon'.


WLC: Put your hard hat on underneath the beesuit cause here it comes:

Not sure what your real job is but I can tell you that from reading your posts you often come across as one of those who has no clue how real food gets on the table for the people you dine with. Being close to SF I see this attitude tossed similarly towards Ag quite often from the elites in white suits who have not nor ever will have sore backs and holes in the knees of their bee suits from grubbing on the ground trying to keep bees alive in a healthy fashion that makes enough money to keep the whole game going till the next year without screwing our neighbors or our customers. 

Saying that big farms are "bad" is like me saying big cities are "bad". I could say that I personally think 90% of the buildings in NYC need to be knocked down to make more room for bee forage. To hell with the displacement of all the folks who live and work there. We country elites think it would be better just like you think big farms are all evil. 

Seems kind of hypocritical for you to sit and pronounce judgement on ag's consolidation when you yourself choose to live in the urban version of the human animal consolidation.

Not sure about others but I personally consider my version of consolidation to be preferable to yours. I can not comprehend how anyone would choose to live and contribute to a system of mass of humanity that is as coarse, jaded, and uncaring as seems to emanate from the "big cities." Speaking of sources of pollution and long lasting negative effects on a society. Not sustainable......... 

The only difference I see between those who hold these different philosophies is that the country slickers are not out there knocking big cities for all their vices while the city slickers think they have all the right in the world to pound on those actually producing the food. 

Your gloating over the possible affects of our drought in helping to "straighten us out" is like ag folks praying for another 9/11 to "straighten you out." Just plain sick IMO for anyone to do so.. 

Come and wear my bee suit for 10 years and you might get a neuron or two to start thinking from a farm perspective.......

On second thought.............forget it...... I'll stick with the issues we have...... No need of bringing another issue into the bee yard......We have enough of those already.


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## TalonRedding

Grumpybeeman,

I haven't been in this game long enough to really justify this projection, but I'll say it anyway because it's food for thought. 
I think the future of queen breeding will be much more localized than it is now. Folks are starting to realize that the benefits of getting queens from a source that they are familiar with far outweighs the gamble of getting them from an unfamiliar source. I think that my generation of commercial Beekeepers will be rearing their own stock, much in the way Michael Palmer and similar folks run their operation. It's not that it will be out of protest against big agriculture or anything like that, but it will simply be a good business model. Shipping costs will continue to rise along with everything else in response, which reinforces the projection of localized operations and their queens. I also think planting forage solely for bees among Beekeepers is in the mix too. Pollination needs will still be in order, but will be done by the orchards and groves themselves ( again, shipping costs).


----------



## grumpybeeman

Fusion_power said:


> Grumpy, it is not acceptable to deliberately disparage a business someone has spent years developing. In this case, I'm caught between agreeing with you that many of the queens available today are are "pollination" queens that are extremely unthrifty and incapable of wintering and the alternate that I know several queen breeders who are doing the best they can to put hardy survivor stock on the market.
> 
> From your posts, it is obvious you have never produced queens. At this point, you have moved from being a person with a legitimate gripe to a person who obstinately refuses to look for a solution. Go raise some queens. See how well you can do in the business. Better yet, read a few books on queen rearing such as the one by Taber or by Laidlaw & Eckert.


Pollination queens don't cut it. Pollination queens aren't sold to the general public as such. It's a bit dishonest.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri

Thank you, Grumpy, for the kind words but in fact most of the queens we put in our early spring units are purchased queens from either California or Florida, it is just too dang cold for breeding at the time people typically want their bees. I still maintain that most hive issues are due to management not queen quality. While there can be some questionable breeders (we have had a few of these ourselves) the reputable queen breeders whose names we all know, stay awake nights worrying about the weather and fulfilling their customers orders, knowing the industry depends mightily on their efforts. 
All Queen breeders have lines that run the gamut from very prolific to more conservative. Every purchaser of queens needs to do their research on the specific characteristics one is looking for. If they were consistently breeding junk they would go out of business so someone must be happy with their efforts. If one is not happy with the options, again, it is an easy enough thing to breed one's own. Grumpy, instead of complaining about how the world doesn't work for you, change it! :thumbsup:
Sheri


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## grumpybeeman

jim lyon said:


> The commercial queen breeders I know are honorable hard working folks doing their best to deliver a good product at a fair price. The tone of this thread dosent really deserve any further comment. Sorry for any contribution that I made to this thread as well.


Good products for people that do pollination.


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## Honey-4-All

jim lyon said:


> The commercial queen breeders I know are honorable hard working folks doing their best to deliver a good product at a fair price.



The good thing about a true free market economy is that if the consumer thinks the product is poor a wise and prudent producer of a superior product will jump in and take the market share held by the poor producers. If the good queens are out there they will become available. Keep your ears open and your mouth closed and sooner or latter someone will squeal about a superior bunch of queens produced by "so and so.":shhhh: :waiting:


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## WLC

Honey4all:

I've read the genetic studies, and I've understood them.

Your bees are hopelessly hybridized.

You need new breeder queens.

There's a big drought on in California.

Where are the package bees going to come from for the next season?

By the way, the drought in the Central Valley goes way beyond beekeeping.

Kindly think about how badly the timing has gone in California and the South.

Last year was a stretch in almonds. This year is worse.

Prices will, of course, go up.


----------



## TalonRedding

jim lyon said:


> The commercial queen breeders I know are honorable hard working folks doing their best to deliver a good product at a fair price. The tone of this thread dosent really deserve any further comment. Sorry for any contribution that I made to this thread as well.


Jim,

That is certainly true. 
In my opinion what has happened is that many have become the "hamster in the wheel" whether they wanted too or not. It's basically having a business in a location that has done well, the business has grown, and now it has come to a fork in the road. The fork is the weather situation and demand for crops as well as bees. 
It's a very tight spot to be in, and will cause tension among many.


----------



## grumpybeeman

TalonRedding said:


> Grumpybeeman,
> 
> I haven't been in this game long enough to really justify this projection, but I'll say it anyway because it's food for thought.
> I think the future of queen breeding will be much more localized than it is now. Folks are starting to realize that the benefits of getting queens from a source that they are familiar with far outweighs the gamble of getting them from an unfamiliar source. I think that my generation of commercial Beekeepers will be rearing their own stock, much in the way Michael Palmer and similar folks run their operation. It's not that it will be out of protest against big agriculture or anything like that, but it will simply be a good business model. Shipping costs will continue to rise along with everything else in response, which reinforces the projection of localized operations and their queens. I also think planting forage solely for bees among Beekeepers is in the mix too. Pollination needs will still be in order, but will be done by the orchards and groves themselves ( again, shipping costs).


Or the occasional small dairy farmer(yes small dairy farmers still exist) that allows his alfalfa to bloom long for a good hearty first crop of hay. The good old days if you sort through all the knuckleheads out there... are still here with people that have sustained their business. With small amish farms growing land friendly bee forage in proper crop rotations, southern wisconsin is making a painful & slow, but yet pleasant turn around...Assuming one can find proper honey friendly bees that are not of the pollination breed that burn out early.


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## The Honey Householder

I use one queen suppler for all my packages, nucs, and split for the past 16 years. My queen order this year is over 1500 queens. Is it worst it to them to get it right? It sure is. They have served me with less then a 2% drone or none laying queens for year.

Do they burnout? Sure they do, but most the time I'm already done with them when they do. I guess if I could do a better job on the queen. I would!


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## Honey-4-All

WLC said:


> Honey4all:
> 
> I've read the genetic studies, and I've understood them.
> 
> Your bees are hopelessly hybridized.



Lots of issue to discuss...fer sure........ Regarding the above.... FYI Sue Colby and one of her associated is going to be in pulling daughter from this years potential breeders to get a "real" DNA picture of where the stock in Nor Cal originated from. Contrary to grumpies feelings on this issue there are a lot of people and a lot of $ being spent to find solutions to the obvious problems we have.


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## clyderoad

grumpybeeman said:


> Or the occasional small dairy farmer(yes small dairy farmers still exist) that allows his alfalfa to bloom long for a good hearty first crop of hay. The good old days if you sort through all the knuckleheads out there... are still here with people that have sustained their business. With small amish farms growing land friendly bee forage in proper crop rotations, southern wisconsin is making a painful & slow, but yet pleasant turn around...Assuming one can find proper honey friendly bees that are not of the pollination breed that burn out early.


You seem to have all the answers except this one: if you are not happy with the bees out there for sale raise your own. Problem solved.


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## squarepeg

interesting. goes to show that's it's just as important for beekeepers to adapt as it is for the bees.


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## grumpybeeman

Honey-4-All said:


> Lots of issue to discuss...fer sure........ Regarding the above.... FYI Sue Colby and one of her associated is going to be in pulling daughter from this years potential breeders to get a "real" DNA picture of where the stock in Nor Cal originated from. Contrary to grumpies feelings on this issue there are a lot of people and a lot of $ being spent to find solutions to the obvious problems we have.


Cheers! Once bad stock is found to have come from.... Foul brood was isolated...efb and afb. Will bad genetics queens & stock be isolated by rule of law and common sense hygiene practices..and culled out of the general population? Isn't that the most logical solution however unpopular?


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## sqkcrk

If I showed you a half full glass of water, I don't think you would see it as half empty. I think you would question the purity of the water.


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## grumpybeeman

sqkcrk said:


> If I showed you a half full glass of water, I don't think you would see it as half empty. I think you would question the purity of the water.


I'd rather see your queen purchases per year when you started up vs your queen purchases per year now in relation to hive numbers. I know where my water comes from, and how deep the well is. All I see is smoke on the water, and bees all over the country loaded up with bad genetics. Solution to said problem outside of culling nation wide bee stocks like a case of foul brood sterilization?


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## Lauri

There may be some that benefit from this thread I started last week:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?292894-Time-to-think-about-ordering-mated-queens

I was hoping for more input from viewers so concerns and questions could be addressed, but not too many people read the queen rearing forum.


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## sqkcrk

grumpybeeman said:


> The small dairy farmers used to grow out their alfalfa until it bloomed and the plant fully matured.


"used to". We live in the here and the now and there isn't any going back. Join the 21st Century.


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## Ian

>>Come and wear my bee suit for 10 years and you might get a neuron or two to start thinking from a farm perspective.......<<

Cheers to you Honey-4-All, your rant was very well said and I couldn't agree with you more!


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## Barry

There comes a time in threads like this where the end is reached. Words are said, not for further understanding, but to get a rise out of people. Frustrations become apparent and it heads south. Instead of feeding the craziness, just close the book.


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## JohnK and Sheri

Barry said:


> just close the book.


Sounds good to me!


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