# Swarm Swarmed?



## MoisesFromL.A (Jun 13, 2011)

I caught a fairly large swarm that was hanging from a tree last Monday, using a 5 medium nuc. Today I caught another swarm almost in the same place but landed on the floor 3 feet from the tree. The nuc is still on the tree. I opened up the nuc and saw about a quarter to half of the size of the original swarm I had hived. Could the swarm have been to large for the nuc and decided to swarm?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I would rather believe that your second swarm is an afterswarm from the parent feral colony, not a split from your first swarm. 

Swarms do sometimes have more than one queen, but they are normally secondary swarms, not the primary swarm which will have the old queen. Queen cells in the feral colony normally hatch in a few days after the primary swarm leaves, this would fit your time line for the second swarm.

Could be that the swarm was so large (and a medium nuc too small) that some of your first swarm went back to the feral colony, Could also be that your second swarm is not a swarm at all, (In other words, no queen), just the overflow from too many bees in a medium nuc, and they have balled up on the floor at the base of the tree. If this is true, they will likely stay there until they die, because they have no queen. And basically they are lost.

I would move them both, give them a few days and check to see if either or both have a queen. If not, take action to make both colonies queenright.

cchoganjr


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## MoisesFromL.A (Jun 13, 2011)

How would I be able to tell if they have a queen if the hive has empty foundationless frames ?


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

after a few days you should check for eggs if you have drawn comb. If you have eggs then you have a queen.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

MoisesFromL.A. In that case you will have to wait unitl they draw comb, then examine the frames to find her. If you don't find her, it isn't foolproof that she isn't there, but it is the first indication. 

A swarm will build enough comb to start making honey and available for brood layin overnight. In two days they will have lots of comb drawn. By day 3 or 4 you should be able to see eggs in the cells, and nectar in the cells. If you don't see any eggs by day 5 or 6, you likely don't have a queen.

cchoganjr


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## MoisesFromL.A (Jun 13, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> MoisesFromL.A. In that case you will have to wait unitl they draw comb, then examine the frames to find her. If you don't find her, it isn't foolproof that she isn't there, but it is the first indication.
> 
> A swarm will build enough comb to start making honey and available for brood layin overnight. In two days they will have lots of comb drawn. By day 3 or 4 you should be able to see eggs in the cells, and nectar in the cells. If you don't see any eggs by day 5 or 6, you likely don't have a queen.
> 
> cchoganjr


Thanks for the calculated / detailed response .


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Do you have other bees? can you give them a frame of brood/eggs if they dont have a queen they can make one, this will also help to keep a swarm from leaving.

When you opened the nuc and saw 1/2 to 1/4 bees were there bees out foraging?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

To add one more wrinkle. Secondary and tertiary swarms will likely be headed by a virgin queen. With that in mind, you may not immediately see eggs in your newly drawn comb....it may take a couple of weeks. And, if you do an inspection and don't find her....it may be that she's out on her mating flights. It is a tricky business, isn't it?


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## MoisesFromL.A (Jun 13, 2011)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Do you have other bees? can you give them a frame of brood/eggs if they dont have a queen they can make one, this will also help to keep a swarm from leaving.
> 
> When you opened the nuc and saw 1/2 to 1/4 bees were there bees out foraging?


There were bees foraging


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## MoisesFromL.A (Jun 13, 2011)

beemandan said:


> To add one more wrinkle. Secondary and tertiary swarms will likely be headed by a virgin queen. With that in mind, you may not immediately see eggs in your newly drawn comb....it may take a couple of weeks. And, if you do an inspection and don't find her....it may be that she's out on her mating flights. It is a tricky business, isn't it?


Yes it is


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

beemandan is right. I should have mentioned that. However, one of his two, probably the first swarm, should have the old queen, and she should start laying right away.

If they have started foraging, watch and see if pollen is being brought in.

cchoganjr


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