# Foulbrood Control, Plus, Nosema Control?



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

note tylan isn't approve as a preventative only to control an outbreak from the label.



> Tylan® Powder Use only in spring and fall when bees are not producing surplus honey.
> 
> In early spring, the drug should be fed and consumed by the bees before the
> main honey flow begins, to avoid contamination of honey. Complete the
> ...


 <---- says to control not prevent.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

SAS said:


> I plan on doing a quick inspection of both upper and lower brood boxes to help me determine if I might have a problem with Nosema.


How do you propose to do that...detect Nosema by doing a quick inspection?


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

Short of kerosene and a match there is no such thing as prevention for AFB. You can only treat the syptoms with antibiotics, THERE IS NO CURE FOR AFB.

I wish folks would get that in their heads.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

warrior said:


> Short of kerosene and a match there is no such thing as prevention for AFB. You can only treat the syptoms with antibiotics, THERE IS NO CURE FOR AFB.
> 
> I wish folks would get that in their heads.


Tylan will clean up AFB. Old heavily infected combs should be burned, but until people wear it out using it routinely, it will cure AFB.


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## SAS (Sep 4, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> How do you propose to do that...detect Nosema by doing a quick inspection?


 Thank you for asking. 

Being new and with very little help (not very many beekeepers in my area), I have to rely on books, you-tube, and Bee Source for help.

As for your question, I don't expect, or claim I can recognize Nosema when I open a hive. I can only use what I have learned from the sources that I just mentioned. I have heard and read that when inspecting the hive for the first time in the spring, and "if there is high fecal matter all over the top bars and else in the hive, that it may be a sign of Nosema, but with out having a microscope or sending it to a lab, you won't know for sure." I have heard and read that it is better to treat than not to treat if you have a hive with higher amounts of fecal material than the other hives. Am I wrong? 


I have a couple hives that have higher than normal fecal material on the landing boards, and on the hives. It's not ****** or small dots of material, it's large big splatters and long runny streaks, and lots of it.

Again, I don't claim to know what I'm doing, and since I have no mentor, I can only go by what I have read and heard. 

Thank you again!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

U can buy Tylan?

To control AFB the best thing is knowledge. Being able to identify AFB symptoms. Then once found, burn it. Don't inspect too quickly.


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## SAS (Sep 4, 2015)

warrior said:


> Short of kerosene and a match there is no such thing as prevention for AFB. You can only treat the syptoms with antibiotics, THERE IS NO CURE FOR AFB.
> 
> I wish folks would get that in their heads.


 It's obvious that you have been beekeeping a long time, and know everything, but I do not.

I'm going into my third year, and I just want to make sure I have done everything possible to make sure my hives are healthy. 

You have said "there is no such thing as prevention for AFB." That may be true, but I have heard different. 
If I'm wrong, than explain why/how I'm wrong in a peaceful manner. I was not born knowing everything there is to know about bees. I need/want to learn, and not be talked down too.


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## SAS (Sep 4, 2015)

Thank you Vance G, good info.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

SAS said:


> "if there is high fecal matter all over the top bars and else in the hive, that it may be a sign of Nosema, but with out having a microscope or sending it to a lab, you won't know for sure."


High fecal matter doesn't confirm Nosema. Anything stressful to the wintering colony can cause dysentery. Acarine, Varroa, poor feed, long periods of confinement, etc, all can cause dysentery. Take a sample and send it to Beltsville...or does Colorado offer to sample?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

SAS said:


> Thank you Vance G, good info.


Nosema is not a problem for me in my section of the high desert and i seriously doubt it will be a concern for you. If you have comb fouled by the bees, send a piece to the bee lab at beltsville, free. I mailed one a couple weeks ago. Medicating just in case is not my favorite. Verifying you have a problem is. Please dont feel beat up by a herd of old grumpy people. Continue asking questions and remember what you paid for the info. Bear in mind lots of people answering questions, paid a whole lot for the knowledge and most share it freely

Your inexperience led you to ask neccessary questions, but the tone could be misunderstood and was. Ask what is recommended, and why, or give symptoms and pictures and see what your net yields. Please don't get run off and replaced by another of the hundreds who just won't listen anyway.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Do you have reason to believe based on visual symptoms that you have AFB? Does a close-by apiary have it? Don't know if you have a system in CO of notification of nearby cases.

If you don't have either a lab-confirmed warning of having it quite nearby, or any reason to believe your own hives are infected, then I would not treat them. Unnecessary, preventive use of Tylan in the absence of current disease will hasten the day when it becomes ineffective for everybody who actually has a problem.

Messy poop, can be a sign of Nosema, but it can also be just a transitory situation (the poop, not the Nosema) due to hive conditions and other stress. You can send off a sample to have the comb tested.

A quick and dirty (and maybe faster) "test" is to clean it all up, carefully to avoid spreading it around, and see if continues to happen. if not, then likely all you had was a temporary condition that solved itself once the bees were released from the stress on winter conditions.

Enj.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/disorders/bacterial.html

Whoever told you that AHB can be cured told you wrong. While antibiotics can clean up a mild case and/or suppress the symptoms it cannot eliminate the infectious spores. These spores are hard shelled and can remain in the hive and anything they touch, including the beekeeper and his tools, indefinitely. The only method currently available to destroy the spores is irradiation which isn't cheap. Hence the requirement in every state I know of that confirmed AFB must be burned.
The risk of treating either an active case or prophylacticly is two fold. One by masking or covering up an infection you allow time for it to be spread to other colonies and second the very real possibility exists that the bacteria will develop a resistance to the treatment just like it did to terramycin.
Until a time comes that we can effectively destroy the spores the only prevention should be sanitation to prevent cross contamination and eradication when found.


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## SAS (Sep 4, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> High fecal matter doesn't confirm Nosema. Anything stressful to the wintering colony can cause dysentery. Acarine, Varroa, poor feed, long periods of confinement, etc, all can cause dysentery. Take a sample and send it to Beltsville...or does Colorado offer to sample?


 Thank you very much Mr. Palmer. I will check to see if Colorado has a place/lab I can send a sample to.

I will hold off doing any treatments, preventative or other wise, until I know for sure. 

Again, thank you, that's the best advise I have received.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Like in any situation, the proper understanding of and diagnosis of the state of things should inform one of what actions are necessary going forward. Treating a colony or colonies of bees to prevent something they don't have has led to antibiotic over use.


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## SAS (Sep 4, 2015)

Vance G said:


> Nosema is not a problem for me in my section of the high desert and i seriously doubt it will be a concern for you. If you have comb fouled by the bees, send a piece to the bee lab at beltsville, free. I mailed one a couple weeks ago. Medicating just in case is not my favorite. Verifying you have a problem is. Please dont feel beat up by a herd of old grumpy people. Continue asking questions and remember what you paid for the info. Bear in mind lots of people answering questions, paid a whole lot for the knowledge and most share it freely
> 
> Your inexperience led you to ask neccessary questions, but the tone could be misunderstood and was. Ask what is recommended, and why, or give symptoms and pictures and see what your net yields. Please don't get run off and replaced by another of the hundreds who just won't listen anyway.


 Thank you Vance G!

And thank you for pointing this out: " but the tone could be misunderstood and was." 
I apologize to all that may have misunderstood me. I realize now, that I needed to phrase it differently.

Thank you!!


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

I apologize for coming off to harsh. Fortunately AFB is way down on the list of things to normally find in a colony. You can thank the burn on sight laws for that. One reason AFB gets drilled into the heads on beekeepers is that it once was the varroa of its day. Studying old bee publications and the history of beekeeping is a whole learning experience in itself and I often think we need to go back and reread the old great masters of beekeeping.
If I was truly concerned about AFB my first call would be to my state bee inspector. He or she will have the low down on what areas of my state has active cases. Then I would try to figure out a way to keep my bees somewhat isolated from those areas or bees moving through those areas.


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## SAS (Sep 4, 2015)

warrior said:


> http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/disorders/bacterial.html
> 
> Whoever told you that AHB can be cured told you wrong. While antibiotics can clean up a mild case and/or suppress the symptoms it cannot eliminate the infectious spores. These spores are hard shelled and can remain in the hive and anything they touch, including the beekeeper and his tools, indefinitely. The only method currently available to destroy the spores is irradiation which isn't cheap. Hence the requirement in every state I know of that confirmed AFB must be burned.
> The risk of treating either an active case or prophylacticly is two fold. One by masking or covering up an infection you allow time for it to be spread to other colonies and second the very real possibility exists that the bacteria will develop a resistance to the treatment just like it did to terramycin.
> Until a time comes that we can effectively destroy the spores the only prevention should be sanitation to prevent cross contamination and eradication when found.


 Thank you very much!! Great info. 

I will take your advise, and not treat just for the sake of treating, until I know what I am treating. 

This is why I joined this site, to get great info. 

I have a LOT to learn, and advise like this is priceless.

Thank you!


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## SAS (Sep 4, 2015)

warrior said:


> I apologize for coming off to harsh.


 Thank you very much! I also apologize for the way I responded.

I don't know you, but any man (or women) that has the metal to apologize, is someone I hold with deep respect. There are very few out there, that will do as you have done.

Thank you.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Warrier - AFB can also be controlled without anti-biotics using the "Shaken Method" and a boiling vat of lye water. The bees are not killed. It does however take due diligence. And yes, the spored ARE destroyed.

Crazy Roland


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

SAS , sometimes when you run into a situation that you are unsure about its best to do nothing. Close the hive up and regroup. Talk to someone with experience and listen then act. Bees are pretty hardy if you do what's necessary. Keep up with the mites, don't let them starve, don't over feed, enough room to expand and Fplenty of forage. Make friends with a successful bee keeper in your area.


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## SAS (Sep 4, 2015)

Bkwoodsbees said:


> SAS , sometimes when you run into a situation that you are unsure about its best to do nothing. Close the hive up and regroup. Talk to someone with experience and listen then act. Make friends with a successful bee keeper in your area.


 Thank you.

I have gotten great advise since starting this post, including yours. 

Unfortunately, there is only a couple beekeepers close to me (~20 miles away). They are both commercial beekeepers that work together, having ~4000 hives combined, and have little time to be bothered with a rookie such as myself. 

They are both very nice, and do help me when they can, but that is on a very limited bases, due to how busy there are. 

Anyway, great advise. Thank you!


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

"They are both commercial beekeepers that work together, having ~4000 hives combined..."

SAS are you sure those guys weren't the ones recommending your preventative treatment program? (smiles)


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## SAS (Sep 4, 2015)

Riskybizz said:


> "They are both commercial beekeepers that work together, having ~4000 hives combined..."
> 
> SAS are you sure those guys weren't the ones recommending your preventative treatment program? (smiles)



It very well could be?? Last spring one of them came over to help/show me how to split a hive (actually 4-hives), while splitting he thought he smelled sometime funny from one of the hives and mentioned possibly treating the hive with a medicated powdered sugar to be safe, just in case it may be AFB. I did not treat it last spring, and the hive is still going strong. 

Since then, it has been on my mind. While looking through the sales cataloges I have from Brushy Mountain, Mann Lake, and Dadant over the past year, I noticed something. 

I noticed that Mann Lake's catalog advertises "Terramycin 100MR Oxytetracyline," and this is what it says, and I quote, "Used for treatment and prevention of American and European Foulbrood." 

Dadant also advertises on page 63 of their catalog, and at the top of the page it says, "Fouldbrood, Disease Prevention for Healthy Bees." Listed a couple items below the heading is: "Tera-B Mix", that states, and I quote again, "Recommended as an aid in prevention of American and European foulbrood." 

I think where the commercial beekeeper had an influence, if I remember right, is that he uses Tylan mixed with powdered sugar instead of Terramycin mixed with powdered sugar. 

So after reading that, and after reading that treating with Fumagilin-B was recommended for spring and fall feeding (books and catalogs). I decided to ask if I could feed/treat them at the same time.

Anyway, not having a mentor that I can talk to, and being a rookie, I have to get the information I need anyway I can, even if it's wrong. 

I'm glad I asked the question (agreed, I should have worded it differently); what I have learned since posting this tread, is priceless. 

And I want to thank you all, for the great advise!!


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

SAS

AFB would normally be found in larger commercial operations because of the hive numbers involved(not all commercial apiaries). In your case as long as you run a tidy shop you should not have to worry about having to deal with it. Education is key. Equipment and supply companies as you mentioned sell all kinds of medications; as they are in the business to sell products and make a profit. You should decide for yourself what medications (if any) will be used to keep your bees healthy. I have kept bees in N.M. for 26 years now since moving here and selling our commercial business in Virginia many years ago. I have not once found the need to administer any medications to prevent AFB. Keep reading.


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