# Starting on SC start strips



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I got the idea for the slatted racks here

http://www.cordovan-honeybee.com/statted_rack_SBB/SR_SBB_gallery.htm 

the idea is twofold
1) give the bee's some extra space to cluster besides on the comb.
said to reduce bearding and perhaps help with swarm control
2) help control ventilation. they still get lots of air but it should help prevent draftyness.

the slats are 3/4" wide and spaced to attempt to line up under the frames so mites can still fall freely between them (at least that's the theory)
in the front half they're 1 1/4" spacing where I'm gonna use topbars. in the rear half it's 1 3/8 where I'm gonna use frames so I can super above em.

I'm aware of Dennis's thoughts on comb depth
everything's a compromise ain't it?








I'm using all mediums in my langstroth equipment so I made the long hive so that the frames will be interchangeable
this presnts so many advantages with managment that I can't make myself do otherwise
Michael seems to be happy with the results he's had
I may try something like Dennis suggests in 2007 for comparison but I'm doing all I can handle in 2006

about the size of the bee's
1 school of thought about how SC helps with the mites is that the bee pupae fills the smaller cell more completely and simply doesn't leave room for the mites
if this is true them the same size bee in a smaller cell is a good thing 

to make starter strips I just cut a one inch strip off a piece of foundation and use that rather than the whole sheet 

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/window/Dsc00781.jpg 

I use SC foundation but I don't think that's any kind of requirement

Dave

ps: I'm a complete rookie
none of these ideas are mine, I've just read a lot and tried to compile ideas from others that seem to make sense

[ January 05, 2006, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

The site about slates isn't working.

Is it possible to do pollon collection with the long hive that you built Dave?

Also, I know the feeling about being a rookie and copying everyone else. I think its the best way to start.

Doug


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

"The site about slates isn't working."

works for me, might want to try again

I've never collected pollen
you obviously couldn't use a conventional pollen trap with my hive
I would think if you used a top entrance like Michael does you could built something yourself

Dave


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

How about feeding? What are your plans to do about feeding with the long hive?

Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Okay, so I've decided on a horizontal hive with small cell or natural cell.

Cool. I think you'll like it. Is it with frames or top bars?

>First for Drobbins: whats with the slates on the bottom and also what are the sizes and spacing that you used?

I think Drobbins covered it. While I've enjoyed slatted racks on standard hives, I don't bother with them on long hives. It's your choice. It's simpler without them.









>According to his research he has found that the bees sizes don't actually change, just how they deal with mite control

Mine sure look a lot smaller. Enough that complete newbies who don't know I have small cell and the State inspector have noted it.

>and also that an 8 inch medium box isn't going to be deep enough for the bees to really do a full "natural" comb build.

Natural comb comes in all sizes and shapes. Bees are opportunists. They use what they have. I've had good luck with the mediums.

>So is the idea of having the hive based on a 1X8 too small?

I think it's perfect.

>Thirdly: (and the reason for the post) How do you use starter strips??? :-D 

I cut a 3/4" strip and wax it into the groove with a wax tube fastener (see Walter T. Kelly), if it's a grooved to bar (which would be my preference). If it's a wedge top bar, then put it behind the wedge and nail it. Personally, I prefer the comb guides. They never fall out like foundation and starter strips both do on occasion, they don't get bent or torn. But starter strips work fine too.

>Is it possible to do pollon collection with the long hive that you built Dave?

Mine has a top entrance already. One of the new Sundance II pollen traps fits right on top and works great.

>How about feeding? What are your plans to do about feeding with the long hive?

Currently all my long hives have a frame feeder in them. It's not my favorite feeding method but I had them around. They work ok. I cut a piece of 1/4" laun plywood to make a float. Some of mine are the double wide (two frame) plastic ones from Mann Lake and some are the one frame masonite and wood ones from Brushy Mt. I like the way the wood ones work better. You could put two in if you want more feed. You could also, with mine anyway, put a hive top feeder on the back if you like. Or put an inner cover on with a jar on the hole. Mine are three boxes long and I use three migratory covers, so I can put any ten frame equipment on top of any 1/3 of the hive.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

I'm going to do frames. The bees are coming from beeweaver aparies from here in Texas, their "All Star" stock. ITs going to be a three pound package and I'm going to use small cell starter strips.

I just checked out the frame feeder from brushy mountain and it looks interesting, how long do you go before you have to refill it?

Also, I need to do some more research on top entrances, can you give me the basic pros/cons for it? Thanks for the help!

Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Cons of top entrances:

Can't think of any.

Pros of top entrances:

Well for your long hive, you can now use a pollen trap.









You get protection from skunks and mice.

You get no entrances clogged in the winter because of dead bees.

You don't have to mow in front of the hive if you don't want to, the bees can still get out.

You get top ventilation to cut down on condensation in the winter.

>I just checked out the frame feeder from brushy mountain and it looks interesting, how long do you go before you have to refill it?

This time of year I'm checking my hives about once every couple of weeks (depending on the weather) and I'm putting very little in them. During the fall I was filling them every few days depending on the weather.

You can always put three tightly together if you want more syrup.







or put a hive top feeder on the back 1/3 of the hive.

I bought bees from Weavers (and then B Weavers when they split) for 26 years. The Weavers were reliable and always treated me fairly. Except for the last batch of packages I got from them the bees were always easy to get along with. The last batch were horrible.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Doug,

the slatted racks were a LOT of trouble
I was just in "hobbyshop mode" at the time and got carried away.

1 point about topbars vs frames
think about a regular hive
you wanna check the queen somewhere about the end of your big flow
you gotta take all those supers off (maybe 10







) 
their heavy, each one you remove makes the bee's mad cause you expose them to light sound fresh air
you get to the brood nest and your sweaty and they're mad

think about a long hive
the supers are over the honey storage area
you don't have to remove them
you just pop the top on the brood area
now, if you use topbars in this area, the bee's still aren't exposed to light,sound, fresh air
you can remove 1 bar at a time to do you inspection and supposedly instead of coming out trying to get you, the bee's just retreat back into the hive and remain calm
this is why topbar hives are popular in AHB areas, they make mean bee's easier to work
this whole process is also much less disruptive to the bee's
now, another thing you could do, if you use frames in the brood area, is cover the frames with a towel, then the cover
now when you remove the cover they're still not exposed
you can move the towel around a little at a time to only expose the frame your messing with
same idea
just for me, this is one of the supposed advantages of a topbar hive I don't want to lose

Dave


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

How often does a feeder need refilling for package bees?

Also, instead of the slates what would be recommended? Thanks so much, I'm finding the beekeeping community is a very friendly one!

Doug


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Do you feed on a countinualy year-round basis?

Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How often does a feeder need refilling for package bees?

I'd probably check it every couple of days at first since they will be drawing a lot of comb. If they are not taking it then they are probably finding enough nectar for their needs. I wouldn't keep feeding them indefinately. If there's a good flow, I'd let them work that. It's what bees do. Feeding may result in a clogged up brood nest and nowhere for the queen to lay.

>Also, instead of the slates what would be recommended?

I have some screened bottom boards which will produce some ventilation, and I have one with a solid bottom. I don't see a lot of difference. Either will swarm if you don't keep the brood nest opened up. Neither will swarm if you do.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Okay, maybe I'm not thinking straight right now, but what do you mean by "keeping the brood nest open."?

Doug


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

in the spring, the bee's natural tendency is to have a huge population explosion, get way overcrowded and swarm
that's where new beehives come from
but as beekeepers we want to prevent this
we want this huge population of bee's to stay in our hive and produce what is really an un-naturally large honey crop, so we can steal it  
how do you do that?
there are many approaches
most folks think requeening so you always have a young queen helps
there's lot's of discussion of what Walt Wright calls "checkerboarding"
Michael suggests going into the broodnest and inserting empty frames to relieve crowding
I like Michaels approach because it fits so well with getting the bee's to draw small cell
you insert these empty frames in spring which is prime swarm season
it's also prime season for the bee's to draw brood comb 
so you're giving them an opportunity to draw new comb in the brood nest during prime brood comb building season
you do this every year so you're continually giving them clean wax in the broodnest as well

keep in mind, these things don't really apply during a hives first year
these are things to think about at the beginning of the second year after the hive is established

Dave


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Will a hive ever swarm if its a package that year?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Will a hive ever swarm if its a package that year? 

Ever? Well, hardly ever. But drobbins is right, a new package will try to expand the brood nest on it's own and interfering by inserting empty combs probably won't help. On the other hand, if you keep feeding them in between straight drawn comb even with a new package, those combs will be nice and straight.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

You'll find there are no absolute answers in beekeeping, but the odds of em swarming the first year are VERY low
they have a huge job to do just getting established

I also wouldn't get my hopes to high for a honey crop the first year
I managed to steal a couple of frames but even that is polluted with the sugar syrup I feed em to help em get going

Dave

[ January 06, 2006, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Is it possible to feed them with pollen instead of the sugar syrup?

Doug


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## MikeGillmore (Nov 15, 2005)

Doug,

I'm one of those rare cases who had a 3# Minnesota Hygenic package swarm on me this past year. These were the first packages I've ever dealt with so there was a lot to learn. Looking back now in 20-20, and after reading many of the posts here, I think I have figured out some of the things I may have done wrong. Just wanted to share it with you.

I was persuaded that the best way to go with foundation was to buy plastic. I did so, and initially set up the package on 10 deep frames of undrawn plastic. I fed them constantly with a hive top feeder and when they had drawn out about 6 frames and there was plenty of brood present I added the second deep. When they had about 6 frames drawn on the second deep, this is where I messed up. 

At this point the flow was well under way and I didn't realize how quickly the bees were bringing in nectar. The population was exploding too. I saw all of the untouched frames in the deeps and assummed that they didn't need any more room, so I did not add any supers. That was a big mistake. They started to backfill the brood nest area instead of drawing more comb on the ouside frames. Soon there were swarm cells built and it was too late.

I'm not trying to bash plastic foundation, just sharing my experience. I guess the main point is to make sure they have plenty of room in the brood area because.... yes, they can swarm in the first year if you croud them. Don't just focus on undrawn frames but keep a close eye on the brood area.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Mike

I started out the same last year
package on 2 deeps of Pierco
after about 6 weeks I took this picture of a frame out of the broodnest

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/inspection/Dsc00751.jpg

At first I thought it was just textbook beautiful
but after reading here I got concerned it was honeybound
I think you want it more like this 

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/inspection/Dsc00753.jpg

I stoped feeding them and they did fine after that

comments from more knowledgable folks??

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is it possible to feed them with pollen instead of the sugar syrup?

To what end? When you buy a package it's usually April when you get it and there is plenty of fresh pollen to forage. If you feed them even real pollen, it won't be as fresh and my bet is they will ignore it. The time to feed pollen is when there isn't any.

Pollen and syrup serve two different purposes. Pollen is for rearing brood. Sugar (honey syrup etc.) is for sustenance and also for rearing brood. I don't see the point in feeding either if there's a supply already available.

>I'm not trying to bash plastic foundation, just sharing my experience. I guess the main point is to make sure they have plenty of room in the brood area because.... yes, they can swarm in the first year if you crowd them. Don't just focus on undrawn frames but keep a close eye on the brood area. 

I wouldn't blame it all on plastic, but they can swarm the first year. They also can, and do, swarm with lots of room in the supers. It's the room in the brood nest that's important.

>I stoped feeding them and they did fine after that. comments from more knowledgable folks??

For some reason all the books act like feeding is always a good thing to do with a package. It's a good thing to do until they have some comb drawn and a flow going, but you can just promote a honey bound nest (syrup bound nest?). Once there's a flow of nectar out there, why not let them be bees? Gathering nectar is what they do.


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## MikeGillmore (Nov 15, 2005)

Dave,

Great pics! A picture is worth a thousand words. Thank you.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

i too had a 3# package swarm this past year. these bees were (are) one out of three packages hived into top bar hives. the queen was most vigorous, threw an after swarm and i was able to take some honey. being new i took a packages dont swarm attitude and hands off,let the bees make there brood nest the way they want it philosophy. this year i will be much more inclined to insert bars-frames between existing combs. not only to open the brood nest but to keep the comb straight. left on there own the bees way is not always manageable. im building long hives and using # 8 hardware cloth for the bottom.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Okay, heres another design question for MB and Drobbins sense they know what I'm building for the hive.

Would it be better, on my long hive, to put the entrance near the center of the box on the long side so that they are more incline to fill up the whole length of the box? It seems that if the entrance is on one end or the other they will stick to that end and will have a tendence not to expand to the other end.

Doug


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Doug

I'm a rookie making this up as I go
I think that they'll fill the box up no matter how you do it
the reason I put it in the end is because there are reports that they tend to build the brood nest near the entrance, then honey storage further back
I want the brood nest near the entance (on one end) and the honey storage at the other end so I can use topbars 1 1/4" wide in the brood nest and regular frames at the othe end where I can super it
whether they'll co-operate with my plans remains to be seen  
I've seen plenty of pictures of em built with the entrance done the way you suggest and other ways
you just gotta think about it and figure out what makes the most sense to you
there is no "right" way to do it

Dave


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Dave,

I can see the point where you would want brood on one side and honey on the other. however, you think it would help with swarming and other things if they thought they had a larger area? It would seem that if they have stores to the outside and brood in the middle on a long hive then they would feel (at least with nearly 33 frames) that they had a lot of space with no need to leave? Just a thought I've been tossing around.

There may not be a "right" way to do things; but does that mean there isn't a perfect one? lol

Doug


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## PA Pete (Feb 2, 2005)

Back to the SC starter strip question...

Are SC starter strips *really* worthwhile? The bees will draw whatever size comb they want once they get past the starter strips anyway. Having small cell way at the top of the frame is probably *not* what you want, since that is the area that would normally be filled with honey, not brood, unless the frame is one of the center ones in the lower level of a larger multi-super brood nest. Based on my experience with my one hive this past year, the size of the majority of comb on the frame will be only minimally influenced (if at all) by the starter strip size.

SC foundation also costs quite a bit more than normal foundation - why bother?

My inclination after reading threads, a couple of web sites including BWrangler's and MB's, and playing with standard foundation starter strips on my one hive last year, is to use unembossed wax sheet starter strips just so the bees know where to start, and let them take it from there. I plan to do this with all 4 of my new hives this year.

Thoughts?

-Pete


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Pete

I think you're right
I used SC foundation because it's what I had on hand
I really suspect it just doesn't matter
I think all the strip really does if get em going in line with the frames

Doug

it has been mentioned that it's bad to have the honey in 2 seperate areas
in the winter, they might cluster in one area, use all the stores, and not be able to move to the other area because it's to cold
you want it to all be contiguous so they can move from one end to the other 
It's possible they can make this fatal mistake on their own but you certinly don't want to encourage it

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Would it be better, on my long hive, to put the entrance near the center of the box on the long side so that they are more incline to fill up the whole length of the box?

I think its irelevant. One of my long hives has one (that I didn't put there but a warped lid did. It makes no difference. I put mine on the end.

>It seems that if the entrance is on one end or the other they will stick to that end and will have a tendence not to expand to the other end.

Not true. They will expand when they need or want the room. When they get into the floor joists of a house they expand for a very long ways sometimes.

>I think that they'll fill the box up no matter how you do it the reason I put it in the end is because there are reports that they tend to build the brood nest near the entrance, then honey storage further back I want the brood nest near the entance (on one end) and the honey storage at the other end so I can use topbars 1 1/4" wide in the brood nest and regular frames at the othe end where I can super it whether they'll co-operate with my plans remains to be seen.

I purposely work the brood nest to the back no matter where they put it so I can super the front and, since it's a top entrance, force them through the super to get into the hive, so they are aware of it and will, hopefully, fill it. It seems to work so far. And I can inspect the brood nest without moving the supers. But again, I want the entrance in the front and at the top so I can force them into the super.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

>I purposely work the brood nest to the back no matter where they put it so I can super the front and, since it's a top entrance, force them through the super to get into the hive, so they are aware of it and will, hopefully, fill it. It seems to work so far. And I can inspect the brood nest without moving the supers. But again, I want the entrance in the front and at the top so I can force them into the super.

hmm
what you're doing is making it so they don't have to travel thru the brood nest to get to the super
I planed to do this by having an entrance on both ends and only opening the one on the back during our strong flow
your approach seems to have upsides and no downsides, I'll have to think about it a bit
it's gonna be a lot of fun to experiment
for me, the key is to not have the brood nest under the super so you can get to it if needed without removing the super

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>for me, the key is to not have the brood nest under the super so you can get to it if needed without removing the super

For me that's the whole purpose of a long hive.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Okay MB, now how do you setup the hive with a top entrance? I'm assuming its somthing to do with the covers?

Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes, I put no holes in the box and either put a 1/4" screen molding around the bottom of the front migratory cover or some shims under it. The problem with the shims on the long hive is it makes the water run back to the crack between the front and the next migratory cover. Mine have three ten frame migratory covers for the lid. One could, but I never seem to get around to it, cut a dado in the front edge of the migratory cover 1 1/4" wide and 1/4" deep and this would also work.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

I know you are not too fond of queen excluders, but would one be useful if you wanted the queen to lay only in the long box and not the supers that you add?

Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I know you are not too fond of queen excluders, but would one be useful if you wanted the queen to lay only in the long box and not the supers that you add?

Since the brood nest is in the back, I've never had a queen try to lay in the super that is in the front. Useful? No, I think it's counterproductive. If she DID lay in the super, I don't care. I'll just juggle the brood around and put it back where I want it.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

So do you still have an inner cover if you use screen molding for a top entrance on the migratory cover?

Doug


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The only legitimate use I've found for a queen excluder is in queen rearing. A frame enclosure made of a cut down queen excluder lets you enclose a queen on a single frame so all the larvae are the same age at grafting. A queen excluder is also needed to make a Cloake board which is used to manipulate the top story of a colony to queenless status so the bees will start queen cells.

Other than this, I have not found any use for a queen excluder.

Fusion

[ January 09, 2006, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Fusion_power ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So do you still have an inner cover if you use screen molding for a top entrance on the migratory cover?

No. I have notched my inner covers and use them sometimes to make a top entrance as well, but I don't buy them for that. I just cut 3/4" plywood the size of the hive (or in the case of a long hive 1/3 of the size of the hive). I quit doing cleats now. I usually just use shims on the regular hives. I just like the screen molding on the long hive because it doesn't slope the top back to the next joint.

>Other than this, I have not found any use for a queen excluder.

They are nice for draining cappings on or cut comb on.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

a $100 strainer, now THATS expensive


Doug


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

How do you make a migratory cover?

Doug


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

a telescoping cover has a lip on all four sides
a migratory cover only has one on two sides
it's so they can slide the hives right up against one another when they load em on a truck and strap em down
they just happen to work perfect for a long hive
the page I posted with pics of the hive I built shows one at the bottom of the page

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>a $100 strainer, now THATS expensive

You pay $100 for a queen excluder?

>How do you make a migratory cover?

Well, the ones I'm making now aren't technically a migratory anymore. I used to make them 21 1/2" long and put a 3/4" cleat on each end. Now I just cut them the size of the box (eight or ten frame). So a ten frame is just a 3/4" piece of exterior plywood 19 7/8" by 16 1/4" and an eight frame lid is 19 7/8" by 13 3/4".

>a migratory cover only has one on two sides
it's so they can slide the hives right up against one another when they load em on a truck and strap em down

The nice thing about the cleats is they help keep it from blowing off. The down side is, since I'm using them to make my top entrance the cleats get in my way.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

IT was either brushy mt. or dadant have queen excluders for like 90 somthing bucks.

And thanks for the help on the migratories


Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?cat=15

They run from $2.95 to $10.40. I've never seen any anywhere close to $90. When I use them I like the bound ones for $10.40.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

hmmmmm, I must have miss read the price then.


Doug


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## tree_entz (Jan 11, 2006)

Ok,i've been a lurker around here for a while, but never posted. Just tried to read read read, including all the links as well, and that way not bug people. Seriously, this is the biggest 'science project' i've ever taken on. This will be my 3rd season btw.

I'm trying to get a summary here regarding SC, and hoping I could get just a couple of points reiterated. (I do understand that there are different theories, especially regarding some minor details I'm going to bring up)

*Checker boarding* : Brwrangler describes this process (which I have read elsewhere)as a means for providing space for bees to move to (up in this case), while keeping the brood nest in tact. MB (if I read right) suggests that you could add in space in the core brood area to accomplish the same goal instead. 
My goal is to provide a means for getting some frames w/ SCs (which I realize will take several steps).
My question regarding this is:
-Is 'interupting' the core brood area a bad idea? Would it be better to added empty frames (either SC foundation or starter strips) on the outside of the core instead?
-Does MB's method then obviate the need for a shakedown?

*pattern development*: What is the main reasoning for putting an empty frame between two drawn out combs: -for parrallel/horz. alignment? Did someone suggest somewhere that a full SC foundation would be neccessary in the begining of this process?

This is sorta my personal scenerio:
This spring I intend to split a hive, and will also have 2 more nucs on they way. My goal this year is to safely increase my overall number of hives, an expansion year (albeit small comparatively for many here). I plan on placing the nuc frames in a full deep body, while regulating the size w/ a divider board. Should i just keep adding in frames w/ starter strips to accomplish/initiate my SC goals? 

In a more established hive, should you add in empty frames w/ starter strips between the brood area, or above in another empty/checkerboarded brood chamber?

Are there downsides to having all very small celled (4.9, or well maybe that's really normal/natural) frames through out the entire hive? 

My biggest bummer is that I have a lot of fully drawn out deep frames. Could I strategically place these in the hive so that they would be favored for honey storage areas?

ok, I better stop w/ the ?s for now  , but thanks in advance!


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## tree_entz (Jan 11, 2006)

Oh yes!
and why have some people reported large losses during a 'regression' period?


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

I don't know too much about the checkerboarding method, though from what I understand its always good to continually be introducing fresh frames for fresh comb.

The reason for puting an empty frame between two fully drawn frames is so that when they start creating the comb on the empty frame they actually keep it on that frame instead of odd shaped comb. Also it helps the comb to stay uniform.

As far as upsides, downsides, left or right sides to doing somthing or methods to doing things, all I have is the knowledge I've been given from the people here so I'll leave them to answer those questions.

Oh and yes, MB's method of checkerboarding does oliviate the need for a shakedown.

Doug


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Checker boarding : Brwrangler describes this process (which I have read elsewhere)as a means for providing space for bees to move to (up in this case), while keeping the brood nest in tact. 

This is Walt Wrights technique and is related to reducing swarming and increasing yeilds but is a seperate technique from small cell.

>MB (if I read right) suggests that you could add in space in the core brood area to accomplish the same goal instead. 

I have not tried Walt's methods yet. I do know that the method I'm using (as are many others) works to stop swarming and to get more natural sized comb drawn. If I get time I'll try to compare it to Walt's method. Walt has been corresponding with me and we've been discussing having people try side by side comparisons of Walt's checkerboarding by itself and Walt's checkerboarding combined with opening up the brood nest with empty frames or frames with starter strips.

>-Is 'interupting' the core brood area a bad idea?

IMO that depends on the timing. In the early spring when the small cluster is struggling to keep the brood nest warm. Yes. Later in the spring when there are plenty of bees to handle it, then I think it's a good idea. It disrupts it less than swapping brood boxes which is probably the most popular (and in my opinion the most disruptive) method of swarm control.

>Would it be better to added empty frames (either SC foundation or starter strips) on the outside of the core instead?

You can. In the center has two advantages. Swarm control and smaller cells.

>-Does MB's method then obviate the need for a shakedown?

Correct. The shakdown is the "fast" way, but a lot more stress and more losses.

>pattern development: What is the main reasoning for putting an empty frame between two drawn out combs: -for parrallel/horz. alignment?

I put them in the middle of the brood nest for swarm control and for small cell. I put them between drawn combs (which of course the brood nest is) as a comb guide. If you just put empty frames in the bees will make a mess. But an empty frame between two drawn combs works because the combs on each side act as a "guide".

> Did someone suggest somewhere that a full SC foundation would be neccessary in the begining of this process?

You need some kind of comb "guide" when you have a box of new frames. This can be full sheets of foundation, starter strips of foundation, a triangular piece on the bottom of the top bar or popscicle sticks in the groove on the top bar. But you need something.

>Should i just keep adding in frames w/ starter strips to accomplish/initiate my SC goals? 

That or put them between drawn combs. You can do whichever of the comb "guide" principles works for you. If you add the frames in the center of the brood nest between drawn combs you won't need the starter strip.

>In a more established hive, should you add in empty frames w/ starter strips between the brood area, or above in another empty/checkerboarded brood chamber?

If you want to "checkerboard" then you need drawn comb. But you can put all the frames that the bees can handle in with starter strips in wherever you need frames.

>Are there downsides to having all very small celled (4.9, or well maybe that's really normal/natural) frames through out the entire hive? 

Not unless you have REALLY thick honey. Then you might be better off with drone comb in the supers for easier extraction.

>My biggest bummer is that I have a lot of fully drawn out deep frames. Could I strategically place these in the hive so that they would be favored for honey storage areas?

You can try. I just keep trying to get rid of the large cell comb.

>why have some people reported large losses during a 'regression' period? 

1) They are going cold turkey on treatments. Since it takes a couple of regressions to get where they are surviving, sometimes you lose some.

2) They are doing shake downs which are stressful on the bees.

I would do it gradually, monitor the mites, and have a backup plan if they numbers get too high.

For instance, you can use a SBB with a tray and coutn the mites or a sugar roll or just uncap some drone now and then and look for mites. If the numbers start to skyrocket you could do drone trapping or powdered sugar or whatever you feel is appropriate. If they numbers don't skyrocket you can just continue to regress.

I'm think it's also helpful to try to get local feral survivors too. The best way would be to catch some local swarms. Another way to do this is simply raise your own queens who will mate with the locals. If you can't get local bees, you could also start out with some Minnesota Hygenics or some SMRs or some Russians or some queens from feral stock to improve the stock some as far as Varroa resistance to start with.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

im going to say that if your a small cell beekeeper youre using small cell foundation. if your using starter strips blank frames/bars your a natural comb beekeeper. this does not preclude the use of multiple techniques, just that theres a differance, even if subtle. im a natural comb bkeeper,im cheap and at this point figure the bees know best. if i use foundation im stearing the bees into a cell size they may not choose on 
there own.

-Is 'interupting' the core brood area a bad idea? Would it be better to added empty frames (either SC foundation or starter strips) on the outside of the core instead?

i took the dont interupt approach last year. i had swarming and off centered combs. this year i will feed empty bars/frames between combs,probably as far to the back of the nest as possible (i mostly use horizontil hives). 
as far as using sc foundation for starter strips it seems like a waste to me. the starter strip is just to get the bees to do there own thing in the right place. using sc foundation at the top wont induce them to do the whole comb small cell.

[ January 11, 2006, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: stangardener ]


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Ignore


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