# Realism and Treatment free beekeeping



## Drone1 (Sep 18, 2012)

number one has kicked butt and hit 6 medium boxes at early july...not much progress has been made since then. Hive number 2 swarmed...I think it was my own negligence as I never knew it was going to happen. The plus side is that I now have three hives. Hive 3 is iffy, and I might have to feed them for the third time with my hive top feeder tomorrow.

I expect death. My survival plan is to make spits next year and boost to 6 hives. Expansion hopefully beating the loss.

The first book I read was Beekeeping for dummies. A great book, except the fact that it horrified me. I honestly don't know how beekeepers can go on thinking things are fine as they are. Treating my bees year after year sometimes twice a year? Are you crazy? This is awful!

Then I read Michael Bush's book on beekeeping, a great hopeful feeling read until I realize he really doesn't remark upon the plight of new beekeepers. Sure his philosophy is great but the fact of the matter is that any new beekeeper who follows his ideas could meet absolute bitter defeat. Add on the fact that there are beekeepers who make claims like "yeah I was worried about bee disease, and then I switched to 4.9mm."
Solomon parker, one of the patrons of treatment free has made disparaging remarks of some sensible beekeepers like Randy Oliver! Randy Oliver, Someone who appears as a rock of commonsense among a sea of overreaction.

What am I supposed to do as a new beekeeper. I absolutely don't want to treat, but I feel as if I'm being sold something that isn't true. Is there anyone else who maneuvered out from what I'm feeling like?[/QUOTE]
Hi Gus.
I started out treating because that's what i was taught. But I haven't treated with chemicals for 2 years and my hives are booming. I
feel that management is key.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Weather climate and available forage has alot to do with success. We are a product of our environment.


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## nobull56 (Mar 30, 2013)

IMHO, there are some noninvasive "treatments"that you can use that make sense. For me it makes sense to dust my bees with powdered sugar about every other month because it seems to be a fact that mites have trouble holding on when the bees are dusted with any fine powder.

Small hive beetle oil traps seem to be a sensible treatment and monitoring device without adding a bunch of weird stuff to the hive. The same could be said for using grease patties for tracheal mites.

I to am a new beekeeper but I've raised other livestock my whole life. I personally seen the effects of using hormone treatments on cattle and those hormones entering our food. If you go to a feed store today you will find most feeds still have antibiotics, even though it is been proven that low-level antibiotics increase antibiotic resistance!

Natural selection and quality genetics, including feral survivor stock is my best bet to be as close to treatment free has I can get!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Regardless of if you treat or not you will lose hives sooner or later. If you treat at the right time,and with the right product, and if you practice good beekeeping besides just treating - with a bit of luck it might be later instead of sooner. 

The question is, what about after you lose hives? With only one or two hives it will be just like starting over. You need enough stocks to withstand the losses when they come. So what do you think is the best way to get to the point where your apiary is sustainable? Answer that question to your own satisfaction, and you will then know what to do.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Gus979 said:


> I expect death. My survival plan is to make spits next year and boost to 6 hives. Expansion hopefully beating the loss...Treating my bees year after year sometimes twice a year? Are you crazy? This is awful!
> 
> Then I read Michael Bush's book on beekeeping, a great hopeful feeling read until I realize he really doesn't remark upon the plight of new beekeepers. Sure his philosophy is great but the fact of the matter is that any new beekeeper who follows his ideas could meet absolute bitter defeat...Solomon parker, one of the patrons of treatment free has made disparaging remarks of some sensible beekeepers like Randy Oliver! Randy Oliver, Someone who appears as a rock of commonsense among a sea of overreaction.
> 
> What am I supposed to do as a new beekeeper. I absolutely don't want to treat, but I feel as if I'm being sold something that isn't true. Is there anyone else who maneuvered out from what I'm feeling like?


Ahh yes, a new TF vs nonTF thread... Don't expect death, just be aware that it's part of the natural life process.

Yes, treating bees year after year is silly and not ecologically sound.

Whether or not you meet bitter defeat depends on your definition of 'defeat'. Are you going to lose ALL your hives? Probably not, depending on your genetics and how well prepared your hives are for winter. If you continue to utilize the management plans of M. Bush, Tim Ives, Kirk Webster etc... you should be able to stay on top and get a sense of what you're up against. It takes patience, observation and a skilled sense of timing.

Take Solomon with a grain of salt, he has a lot to offer but not always in a palatable format.

I've been keeping TF bees for 5 years, in 3 different yards on opposite coasts. My original bees, from 5 years ago, are STILL ALIVE. They haven't been managed at all in 2 years (they have swarmed and who knows what, but every year they have been observed before swarm season). A lot depends on your goals as a beekeeper.

Also, you could consider adding one of those surplus supers from your big hive to your weaker split. Instead of feeding something artificial.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Gus, I am with you 100%. Finding you feet in beekeeping is tough. The community cannot even agree on Beekeeping or Bee Keeping, go figure. Beekeeping For Dummies or the one for idiots I would not read with a gun to my head, such insulting titles. Old books still in print are more sound than the new ones, time tested so to speak. Number of posts is helpful but not absolute by any means.

Like all things Internet you need a good BS detector in your head. I have read this thing for 18 months am beginning, BEGINNING, to recognize the leaders here and the nutcases, the confusion generators, the idealist and the common sense BKs. The VIDS and photos are above average and very helpful. 

Randy Oliver, odtimer, Oldtimer, M. Bush (skip his no paint and TF stuff), Dadant, Doolittle, Mann-Lake, Barry, (for me S. Taber),Beeweaver, many researchers not on this forum, many others whose nutty screen names I cannot pronounce much less remember, you will get the hang of it eventually, bee of good cheer.

I started 18 months ago with three hives, two Langstroth and a TB (top bar). It will take me another 18 to chunk the junk and return to 10 frame Langs with frames and wired foundation.

My bees are from BWeaver, HoneyBeeGenetics, one local mutt and a swarm. So therefore my mites are from CA, Central TX and local.

My troubles are from God, BeeSource, the net, reading and Central Arkansas. Those are also my help although God has avoided me in this hobby to date. :lookout:


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## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm second year. Started with one hive that I treated in the fall. This year I did drone harvesting on my two hives. I'm coming back with three mites after a four day drop. So I'm not going to treat. But I still feel a little uneasy about it. I'm going to do a powdered sugar roll this week. I wonder why I don't hear more about drone harvesting on this forum.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

It seems to me the best way to be successful with treatment free beekeeping is to split, split and split again.
This keeps the mite numbers down in each colony and if you do lose any you have your splits to make up the losses.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

frazzledfozzle said:


> It seems to me the best way to be successful with treatment free beekeeping is to split, split and split again.
> This keeps the mite numbers down in each colony and if you do lose any you have your splits to make up the losses.


This sounds great but if a goal is to produce honey, do you find that hives which have been split multiple times produce significant honey? Or has the goal changed to just keeping the bees alive? I'm not trying to start an argument; I want to understand your priorities.

The ultimate solution to me seems a bee that can "deal" with mites on their own without human intervention. As I have commented before, this seems a work in progress among advertised commercially available tf stocks. My criteria for TF bees is that they are able to thrive w/o mite treatments in my area and produce a honey crop.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Andrew Dewey said:


> Or has the goal changed to just keeping the bees alive?


Good point. It is hard to focus on draining the swamp when you are up to your butt in alligators!


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## jimsteelejr (Sep 21, 2012)

I definitely want to avoid manmade chemicals if at all possible. Some of the tf people don't monitor their hives so they don't know what is happening. You have to keep data to know what is successful and what is not. I use Drone frames and check for mites in them before I freeze them. I do the sugar roll to check mite levels. If I feel a hive is losing it to mites I requeen out of a hive that shows resistance and low mite counts. If things really go south I have Formic acid strips to treat. I feel that ultimately genetics will be what overcomes the mite issue and constant treatment is the wrong way to go. But that said I am not such a purist that I will let a hive die that I could save. I feel like I am between the tf and non tf guys. I see both sides Rather than sniping at each other how about publishing some records that we can evaluate. 1. number of hives beginning year one, 2. number of hives increased (splits, collected, bought, etc. 3. mite counts as done. 4 treatments if any (chemical, natural, drone frames etc). 5 number of hives lost. If the treatment free guys are on the right track we should see a upside down bell curve with the number of hives going down from losses then bottoming out as the resistant bees become the majority and then rising as the resistant bees are split and make new hives. Show us data not just talk. I want to be treatment free but I want to see the data.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the angst in the op is understandable given the divisiveness and tension that exists between the two camps.

what's a beginner to do?

as a nonconformist (squarepeg) i say don't allow yourself to be defined by any either/or label.

approach your beekeeping with an open mind and enjoy it for the experimental pursuit that it is.

none of this is cast in stone, you can't learn it all in one season, and the learning process never ends.

don't be afraid to try things, and appreciate mistakes for they are learning opportunities.

they are your bees, and the choices are yours to make, no need to wring your hands over any of this.

if you stick with it, you will eventually figure out what it takes for you to achieve your goals, with your bees, in your location. 

have fun!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

To the op….my advice is always the same. Regardless of your treatment philosophy, test ‘em. You’ve read Randy Oliver? OK…see what he recommends for testing…choose one method…and do it.
Then…make your decisions. And if you choose not to treat and your hives survive, then you have some idea of what mite load they can tolerate. And if they collapse, you may have some idea of why. Or if they survive but fail to thrive…you get the picture.
Don’t go into it blind. Know and understand the enemy.
Good luck.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

When you have a winter like I did and all your hives die, you'll start treating I bet.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Jeez camero7... a little doom and gloom? Sorry for your losses.


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## gunter62 (Feb 13, 2011)

This is my 4th season with bees. I don't treat or do mite counts. I have made an average honey crop each year but the 1st(received bees in the middle of our main flow). My hive count has gone up each year. I bought only 1 hive, and split from it.

I recognize the possibility of absolute failure following this path, but based on my reading, failure appears possible even if you treat. Follow Squarepeg's advice, and have fun while you learn!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

camero7 said:


> When you have a winter like I did and all your hives die, you'll start treating I bet.


Cam, my recollection is that you bring nucs in in the spring. Were these nucs part of your losses? Were there any obvious problems with the nucs that may have affected your apiary?

deknow


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

No, this was 5 years ago with all hives [6] started with packages, when I returned to beekeeping and was sucked in by the no-treat philosophy. All hives had VSH queens and grew and looked great going into the winter.

Last year I didn't treat my nucs [they were splits from my production hives] with Carni queens. I lost 50%. My production hives were treated and I had 80+% survival. This year I'm treating my nucs as well as my production hives.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

You lost the nucs over winter? These were made in July or August?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> You lost the nucs over winter? These were made in July or August?


The over wintering of nucs requires skill and luck. I hope for both this winter.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

Yup, I tried overwintering single hive body nucs last year with middling success. This year I grafted queens and now I'm up to my eyeballs in nucs! Wouldn't bother me if a few didn't make it as I'm not sure how I'm going to have enough hardware for spring... not a bad problem to have, as bee problems go. Good luck with yours!

I guess I was wondering how old the nucs were that cam lost to mites?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Wake me up! I'm on page 2 and nobodies yelling.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Gus979 said:


> Solomon parker, one of the patrons of treatment free has made disparaging remarks of some sensible beekeepers like Randy Oliver! Randy Oliver, Someone who appears as a rock of commonsense among a sea of overreaction.


To be fair (which you're not) I clarified my position repeatedly. I have nothing against Randy Oliver, just that he says some things that come off wrong and are not helpful. I even allowed that he was misquoted and searched out his own reaction to the article quoted. What happened was a bunch people thought that I was talking about Randy when in fact I said some really disparaging remarks about the article in which he was quoted.




Hazel-Rah said:


> Take Solomon with a grain of salt, he has a lot to offer but not always in a palatable format.


I'll buy that.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Gus979 said:


> What am I supposed to do as a new beekeeper. I absolutely don't want to treat, but I feel as if I'm being sold something that isn't true. Is there anyone else who maneuvered out from what I'm feeling like?


What are you being sold? What do you feel like isn't true? What are you expecting? Do you think maybe your expectations are not realistic or not being realized?

I will tell you this, and this is from my experience and from the experience of persons I know personally. Starting treatment-free from packages is very difficult, especially if you're starting with packages not from your climate. That's the reality. I don't want to hide this from you or anyone else. I'm speaking from experience, treatment-free is much more difficult with bees not acclimatized to your area.


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## JRW (Jul 19, 2013)

Gus979 said:


> Hello
> 
> 
> 
> What am I supposed to do as a new beekeeper?


Best thing to do is not even bring it up on this forum , it's been done to death on this forum and as always , just deteriorates int a mud slinging free-for-all.

Just my opinion.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Hazel-Rah said:


> You lost the nucs over winter? These were made in July or August?


Yes last year lost lots of nucs... Beltsville could only find varroa, no nosema or tracheal. Year before I had 100% survival without treating. Hard winter last winter.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

My big problem was/is self inflicted. Trying to do a Tbh and two Langs. I tried to many things the first year. TB, foundation variations, constant inspections, switching out of the TB, Screened Bottom Boards, Bug traps, feeding without knowing when/why, grease patties, making fondant. Get the picture. Everybody preaches, well almost everybody, work! and you can fly! Well M. Bush is right on at least one thing IMO, "Everything works if you will let it". Anyway,I will try a little neglect this year.


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## Gus979 (Oct 11, 2012)

JRW said:


> Best thing to do is not even bring it up on this forum , it's been done to death on this forum and as always , just deteriorates int a mud slinging free-for-all.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Yeah, fair enough. Honestly that entered in my head when I clicked post on this. I guess I'm just getting frustrated getting so many conflicting viewpoints, makes me super nervous for whats coming down the line. What set me off was when I was at a farmers market and the guy my parents like to buy honey from (who I like, really nice guy) basically said to me "really, you are a first time beekeeper? You *HAVE* to treat. *Hurry*!" I should relax when I read all the posts on this site as well. Sorry everyone.

Also, Solomon, don't get too angry with me, I only brought you up because you are one of the beekeeping community I listen to. Your website was wonderfully informative on your philosophy for beginning. However, it is my opinion that you had made a bit a mean remark regarding Randy but I'm not going to dredge up history and turn this into a silly argument match. Its never nice for the newbeeks like myself when the Beekeeping parents fight.

Also thanks for everyone else posting

https://www.dropbox.com/s/48cxkutyw6hsi9x/20130902_173903.jpg


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## nobull56 (Mar 30, 2013)

Gus I thought I was the only one with that color of GREEN!!!!

PS- purity boxes!


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

camero7 said:


> Yes last year lost lots of nucs... Beltsville could only find varroa, no nosema or tracheal. Year before I had 100% survival without treating. Hard winter last winter.


When you said hard winter, do you mean long? Late bloom, early dearth? Or just a conspicuously high mite related mortality?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Gus979 said:


> Also, Solomon, don't get too angry with me, I only brought you up because you are one of the beekeeping community I listen to. Your website was wonderfully informative on your philosophy for beginning. However, it is my opinion that you had made a bit a mean remark regarding Randy but I'm not going to dredge up history and turn this into a silly argument match.


You'll just have to take the good with the bad then. If Michael Bush himself (a man who I have met in person and have much respect for) said something that dumb, I'd point it out too. However, he doesn't have a history of doing so, nor of being quoted in periodicals with international distribution.

It's like this. I don't use the words "I think." I just say whatever it is that's on my mind, no equivocation and no name calling. My friends appreciate that, the few that I have. They know I'll never lie to them. They know I won't tell them everything's gonna be okay when it's not. Maybe that doesn't work well in text and feelings get hurt. I'm the one here telling people thinking about treatment-free beekeeping to expect it to fail and plan accordingly. That's the realism in treatment-free beekeeping. It's the real I seek to promote.

I share directly from my experience. If you want it, I am always available. If you don't, then pleasant travails to you.

Here's the reality as I see it Gus. You're off to a good start, but you need more bees. I realize your plight. I feel for you. Michael Bush was in decades as a beekeeper before he did the modern treatment-free thing. So with all due respect, he hasn't really been there. I started in 2003. There weren't any fancy "resistant" bees available to me then. It is for people like you that I have done the work I have, the website, the blog, the Facebook page, it's for the beginners. I've seen my friends bees fail right in front of me when they didn't take my advice and throw their hands up and forget the whole thing. I don't want to see any more of that.

So I want to know what you think you're being sold that isn't true, because that's not the sort of thing I sell.


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## nobull56 (Mar 30, 2013)

Mr. Parker, I'm going to jump in here because Gus and I have two things in common. He has green painted hives and were both new!

I don't think that you are trying to sell me something that isn't true (I suspect Gus feels the same way). But to us new beekeeper's (from my point of view) the beekeeping community or beekeepers in general live in some other dimensional reality that have so many versions of truth that we just get lost!

I'm pretty lucky I'm old enough that this ain't my first rodeo. A lifetime ago I listened all the cattle farmers went to the auction and bought 12 drop calves. Two weeks later I had two left. Half a lifetime ago we raised hogs with an average birth weight of 2 pounds. This time it only took me three years to get the average birth weight the 5 pounds and premier sire all other breeds.

What I'm trying to get to is not a single one of us invented bees! I'll appreciate every little bit of knowledge I can get from you or anyone else. I may not show my appreciation the way you expect to see it, but I truly am thankful even if I forget to tell you so sometimes.

I for one am going to try to encourage someone like Gus. Like you I'm not going to try to sell him something that isn't true. If nothing else the guy has some pretty bee boxes. If you don't believe me just look at the link he posted. https://www.dropbox.com/s/48cxkutyw6hsi9x/20130902_173903.jpg 

and to both you and Gus who cares who Randy is? IMHO


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

very cold with lots of ice and snow. Not many flying days and small clusters didn't make it.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

They _are_ pretty. 

That's why I pick the car, my wife picks the color. We have teamwork like that.

I like the mediums.


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## Gus979 (Oct 11, 2012)

nobull56 said:


> Mr. Parker, I'm going to jump in here because Gus and I have two things in common. He has green painted hives and were both new!
> 
> I don't think that you are trying to sell me something that isn't true (I suspect Gus feels the same way). But to us new beekeeper's (from my point of view) the beekeeping community or beekeepers in general live in some other dimensional reality that have so many versions of truth that we just get lost!
> 
> ...


Well said. I probably should stay off bee source whenever I get frustrated. I always let other people pick the colors and design


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>When you have a winter like I did and all your hives die, you'll start treating I bet. 

Between emails and bee conferences I meet and talk with a lot of beekeepers. The ones who treated and all their bees died, have mostly quit treating. The ones who did not treat and all their bees died, now treat religiously even thought they continue to die. The golden age of beekeeping is over. Back in the 70s I could put a package of bees in a hive and the only real challenge was keeping them from swarming. That is no longer true.

The comparison to finding a doctor was brought up in another thread. This is actually a very good one. Reality is that you need to find a doctor who shares your world view if you are going to come up with acceptable solutions for your own health.

Most of this issue isn't just whether it works or not. In reality you'll find most people, if they are paying attention and tweaking things, can make a system work. The problem is if they are not paying attention or have no faith in the solution, they can also allow that same system to fail. So a lot of making something work is your attitude and actions because of those attitudes. Helplessness is not a productive attitude. Sometimes, of course, colonies die no matter what you do or don't do.  That's just life. But in the long run you need to find a system that works for you. A lot of it working for you is whether it fits your view of the world. If it fits your view of the world you can figure out how, using your world view, to tweak things. If it does not then the conflict of your world view (which shapes how you think) with the system you are attempting to use, will probably frustrate you and you will have problems figuring out how to adjust.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm

A lot of beekeeping is an art. You have to adjust things to this year, to this flow, to your climate, to the current state of this hive. It's not just do x on this date and y on this date. Most things in beekeeping are judgement calls. It takes experience to develop that judgement.

I am certainly not against feedback to see if what you are doing is working. Counting mites and tracking their ups and downs is helpful in understanding what is going on in your hives. I counted religiously when I first discovered Varroa and continued until had trouble finding any to count. But certainly if you have doubts about the state of your hive, there is nothing wrong with measurements.

>Michael Bush was in decades as a beekeeper before he did the modern treatment-free thing. 

I'm not sure I understand this statement. But to clarify here is my complete history of treating:

1974 used Terramycin because the books scared me into thinking they would die without.

1975-1999 no treatments whatsoever but lost them all in 1998 and 1999 to Varroa

2000-2001 used Apistan for Varroa. In 2001 they all died from Varroa anyway

2002-2003 used Oxalic acid on some of them, FGMO on some, wintergreen oil on some and nothing on some of them also started regressed to small cell.

2004-present no treatments whatsoever

So the only 3 years ALL of my bees were treated for anything were 1974, 2000, 2001.

The only 5 years ANY of my bees were treated for anything would add years 2002, 2003

The 35 years that NONE of my bees were treated for ANYTHING were: 1975,1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013

It would have been a lot simpler to explain if I had simply never treated for anything... but I got desperate and it didn't help anyway...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Michael Bush said:


> >Michael Bush was in decades as a beekeeper before he did the modern treatment-free thing.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand this statement.


All I intended to communicate was that you were not a novice when you came into the modern era. It's one thing when you take an experienced person and plop them down in the middle of something. It's a whole other thing when you try to get somebody new started doing the same thing. I would expect that you would have a much easier time getting a system to work than would someone who had never had their hands in a hive before.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Michael Bush - thanks for that. The simple anecdote that someone did/didn't treat and then their bees died simply is not enough information to draw a conclusion from. If you use the wrong treatment in the wrong way at the wrong time - your bees will almost surely die. Same thing goes for bad husbandry without treating. Everyone needs to learn and understand the system that they choose to use - whatever it may be.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, if you want 'realism' in treatment free beekeeping...

I find that the best information is coming out of the South Western U.S. .

The information out of New Mexico and Texas has the best support for resistant stock that I can find in the scientific literature.

For all intents and purposes, they actually have resistant feral Honeybees out there.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

To say hives were treated for varroa mites but died of varroa mites anyway means the treatment wasn't done effectively.

If it was done effectively the hives would not have died from varroa mites.

Only exception being if the hives are so far gone by the time the beekeeper notices and treats (all brood dead, adult bees to sick to start again) then even when the mites are removed the hive cannot recover & dies anyway.

If a person suspects their treatment was not effective they can test the hives, and if there are still mites, figure out where they went wrong in the way they treated and fix it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I don't doubt at all that Mr. Bush's bees would have died after a 2001 Apistan treatment. By that time it was largely ineffective and the primary reason the EPA granted approval for Check Mite in 2000. It worked great for about 2 years but by the third year was about as effective as fgmo that is unless you were trying to kill queen cells.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

No True Scotsman, moving the bar, ad hominem, etc. etc. etc.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Dated 1998:
http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=297


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> No True Scotsman, moving the bar, ad hominem, etc. etc. etc.


Claiming those for the recent comments is a stretch at best. Perhaps confirmation bias is causing you to perceive logically fallacious attacks against yourself or your belief system in a conversation which actually is not about you. 

I don't see any attacks against M. Bush or his philosophy either. He says that one reason he doesn't believe in treating is that mites develop a tolerance and the treatments become ineffective - Jim's comment was a straight forward confirmation of that position. Oldtimer's comment is just factually true. You seem to be largely tilting at windmills.

You and Michael Bush have very similar messages, but he seems to put little or no energy into stamping out heresies.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If a treatment doesn't work, it must be the beekeeper's fault.

Realism.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I suppose it wouldn't be helpful to point out that beekeepers unintentionally kill their own colonies all the time when using treatments. The treatment either doesn't 'cure' the problem, or it can cause the problem.

I haven't seen much reporting on the actual stats for that though.

Regardless, I think that I'm being realistic too.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> No True Scotsman, moving the bar, ad hominem, etc. etc. etc.


Ahhhh....an attempt to appear sophisticated.....spoken like a true 21st century Ed Lillywhite Norton (which shows just how sophisticated I am )


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Interesting article Jim.

We are beginning to get fluvenate resistance in mites here now, although it's rare still, but getting more each year. And to the other pyrethroid strip available also.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> If a treatment doesn't work, it must be the beekeeper's fault.
> 
> Realism.


If a treatment doesn't work then it isn't effective. To repeat - Michael Bush agrees that one reason not to treat is that mites acquire resistance which renders the treatment ineffective. If the beekeeper applies a treatment that is ineffective then yes that is the beekeepers fault - even if the beekeeper did not know that it was ineffective. That is not an attack - when he used Apistan he was doing exactly what many of us do - trying whatever we think will keep our bees alive. By that time Apistan was ineffective and "all" of his bees died despite treatment. Later (apparently with new stocks) he used Oxalic acid and FGMO on "some" of them, and all of his bees did not die. Then he began treatment free. His story. Not an ad hominem attack. And although we aren't talking about Scottsmen, Michael Bush is clearly a true beekeeper. Although at that time he was clearly not a true treatment free beekeeper.

Although, apparently he was a treatment free beekeeper for years before varroa came along at which time his (apparent) unintentional "Bond" method resulted in *all *of his bees dying. Which is what most of us would like to avoid. 

Again you seem to be teasing criticism out of a discussion where none is (obviously) intended. If everyone agreed it wouldn't be much of a discussion would it? Disagreement is not the same as attacking.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>To say hives were treated for varroa mites but died of varroa mites anyway means the treatment wasn't done effectively.

It was done precisely according to the directions on the package which was sold to me by a reputable beekeeping supply house and was (despite the Varroa having built a tolerance to it) the accepted and promoted treatment "du jour". Not it was not effective.

>If it was done effectively the hives would not have died from varroa mites.

The treatment was done exactly according to the manufacturers direction. Unfortunately at that point Apistan was straight up "snake oil" being perpetrated on us by Bayer, the USDA and the agricultural college researchers.

>Only exception being if the hives are so far gone by the time the beekeeper notices and treats (all brood dead, adult bees to sick to start again) then even when the mites are removed the hive cannot recover & dies anyway.

It was done at the recommended time.

>If a person suspects their treatment was not effective they can test the hives, and if there are still mites, figure out where they went wrong in the way they treated and fix it. 

Unfortunately at the time I was just doing what I was told should be done for Varroa, out of desperation at having lost my hives to Varroa. I followed application directions religiously. I wish I knew then what I know now... Now, of course, if I were to fall for the treatment "snake oil" I would have at least tested to see that it did not work.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >To say hives were treated for varroa mites but died of varroa mites anyway means the treatment wasn't done effectively.
> 
> It was done precisely according to the directions on the package which was sold to me by a reputable beekeeping supply house and was (despite the Varroa having built a tolerance to it) the accepted and promoted treatment "du jour". Not it was not effective.
> 
> ...


Aside from the fact that it is manufactured by Bayer, I agree with pretty much everything you say. Yes, you did use a treatment that was largely ineffective at the time you used it and no it undoubtedly did not work. even more ridiculous is it is still being marketed. My pointing this out was hardly an attack on you as you and your bees were the victim. The point of my post was that in 2001 the heyday of Apistan had pretty much come to an end in the US and I think that is pretty much beyond dispute. I would be interested in hearing more about whether he feels his use of oxalic acid was helpful or harmful to his bees.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Thirty hives per yard….seven yards, each in a different state….a total of over 200 hives started in 2009 and left untreated.

http://www.extension.org/pages/6377...ve-project:-abiotic-site-effects#.UicQpNKsiSo

*This carryover effect could not be detected in 2010/2011 since all apiaries setup in 2009, except FL, experienced 100% loss.*

This is treatment free reality.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> Unfortunately at the time I was just doing what I was told should be done for Varroa, out of desperation at having lost my hives to Varroa. I followed application directions religiously. I wish I knew then what I know now... Now, of course, if I were to fall for the treatment "snake oil" I would have at least tested to see that it did not work.


Not unusual at all Mike. I frequently come across hives in the final throws of death by mites, but when I point this out to the owner they say, can't be I just treated.

Well whether they did or not, it wasn't effective, for one of many possible reasons. I usually just point them in to a way that will work for them, whether they do it is over to them.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

beemandan said:


> Thirty hives per yard….seven yards, each in a different state….a total of over 200 hives started in 2009 and left untreated.
> 
> http://www.extension.org/pages/6377...ve-project:-abiotic-site-effects#.UicQpNKsiSo
> 
> ...


You left out this part:



> In the spring of 2009 seven stationary apiaries consisting of ca. 30 colonies per site were initiated from 3- lb packages obtained from various commercial honey bee producers across the southern and western U.S.


Most treatment free proponents will tell you that if you start out with commercial Southern packages, you will not succeed.

After reading that study (not for the first time) I would have to say that it seems a fairly perfect example of a study being used to attempt to prove a point that the authors of the study had no intention of studying. To sum up, they put the hives there, and did nothing to make increase in order to be able to replace deadouts. How is this anything other than beehaving? If they had treated the hives, the same thing would have occurred, though it might have taken a bit longer. The average loss for treated hives was over 30% last year, if I'm remembering correctly. At that rate, those yards, if treated, would have lasted a year longer than the the untreated ones did.

Is it fair to conclude from this that inevitable death is the reality for those who do treat?

This study attempted to quantify many things about pests and disease, about locale, about climate. It really has very little to do with beekeeping reality, whether treating or not treating.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> You left out this part


And this is what a great many new tf beekeepers do.......after having read all the internet pumping. 
Much of the other stuff....increasing for deadouts or lack of available tf bees (except, of course the kind I point out in the snake oil thread) get over looked or are conveniently not part of many tf proponents' posts.
And so, this is 'tf reality' for many (the majority, in my opinion) of new tf beekeepers.....and the study, intentional or otherwise, had everything to do with that reality.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

> The average loss for treated hives was over 30% last year,
>Is it fair to conclude from this that inevitable death is the reality for those who do treat?

Using ‘data’ from a random poll without a stitch of oversight? I think not.
I typically lose about 15% and the greatest majority of those are colonies that went queenless. That’s my reality.

>did nothing to make increase in order to be able to replace deadouts

And you think the average tf newbie understands this? I’ve read many of Michael Bush’s posts….and I don’t remember him suggesting this to any tf wannabe. Show me I’m wrong.

I stand by my post....the results of this study are the usual reality for new tf beekeepers.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

beemandan said:


> > The average loss for treated hives was over 30% last year,
> >Is it fair to conclude from this that inevitable death is the reality for those who do treat?
> 
> Using ‘data’ from a random poll without a stitch of oversight? I think not.
> ...





> Total losses of managed honey bee colonies nationwide were 31.1 percent from all causes for the 2012/2013 winter, according to the annual survey conducted by the Bee Informed Partnership and the Apiary Inspectors of America (AIA) and funded by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA).


http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/br/beelosses/index.htm?pf=1

If you have a better source, I'd like to see it. If not, then my usual approach is to work from the best data available, rather than throwing up my hands and saying "No conclusions can be reached because the data are not perfect."

Does it really need to be pointed out explicitly that if your bees die, you will have to replace them? New beekeepers may be ignorant, but I don't think many of them are functionally retarded. Every day on BeeSource I see new beekeepers asking about their problem hives, and they frequently are advised to make increase, to have more than one hive, etc. This has nothing to do with treating or not treating. It's just beekeeping. Michael Bush has a large section on his site and in his book on the subject of making splits. Any tf newcomer here on BeeSource will immediately be assured by those who treat that his hives will soon die. Do you really think most are so stupid that it wouldn't occur to them that they will have to somehow replace those dead hives? When I was researching beekeeping last winter, before I owned a single bee, I immediately realized several things about beekeeping, and first among them was the fact that *hives die*. And must be replaced. This has nothing to do with treatment vs, non-treatment. 

Tim Ives has half the loss rate you have and doesn't treat. That's his reality. Some very good commercial beekeepers lost more than half their hives last year and that is their reality. The plural of anecdote is not data.

My point is that if that study you cite has anything to do with the reality of treatment free beekeeping, it's nothing more than a coincidence, because that study didn't have anything to do with actual beekeeping of any sort. There was no "keeping" involved. It was a study that used beehaving to gather some data about factors relating to colony survival in different areas and climates. And that was it.

I have to ask this, because it puzzles me: Why do you care about this? Treatment free beekeepers keep only a minute fraction of the hives in this country, so why does it matter to you if some of them fail? Some of those who treat fail as well, especially new beekeepers. Why does it matter to you at all if some of us want to try a different way to keep bees? 

My father used to say, whenever I had a problem that seemed like a big deal to me, "In a hundred years, it won't matter." 

My father was a very wise man.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

20 years ago you could buy a package of Southern bees and put them in a hive and expect them to survive the winter in Nebraska. It's been a downhill slide since then. I have not seen that for well over a decade now. Typically a package doesn't make it through the first winter unless it's requeened with local stock. Treat or don't treat, without winter-hardy stock your package bees won't survive a NE or MN or WI or IA winter most of the time. Wintering is all about stock that can survive and not letting them starve.

>.the results of this study are the usual reality for new tf beekeepers. 

The results of this study are the usual reality for beekeepers who don't requeen those packages.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Michael Bush said:


> The results of this study are the usual reality for beekeepers who don't requeen those packages.


A major proportion of all packages belonging to newbees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I would be interested in hearing more about whether he feels his use of oxalic acid was helpful or harmful to his bees. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmorethan.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#ecology

I did not see any harmful effects by oxalic acid vapor directly on the bees. I am concerned about the effect on the microbes in the hive. Shifting the pH dramatically has a very marked effect on what microbes live and what microbes die. Microbes have a very marked effect on the health of the bee and of the colony:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0033188
http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/gilliam-archives

As a treatment it was very effective (I was vaporizing). As far as keeping the honey clean, there is already oxalic acid in honey and research shows little change in that amount. But as far as maintaining the natural balance of the hive, I have serious concerns.

What I liked about it was it was not dependent at all on ambient temperatures and it was very devastating to the Varroa population and it could be repeated as often as you like, so once a week for three weeks was a doable thing if you wanted to treat while there was still some open brood.

Dribbling would be even more devastating to the microbes in the gut of the bees which are protecting them from Nosema, AFB, EFB and Chalkbrood and are needed to inoculate the bee bread and probably to the bee bread itself.

Back in the 60's when I first started reading about beekeeping and back in the 70's when I first started keeping bees, beekeepers were all adamant about the pesticide treadmill that agriculture was on and how it never allowed things to balance out because you keep killing the predator insects along with the pests and that the problem would never be solved as long as you kept doing this... funny how quickly they all abandoned the concept when the mites showed up...


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## nobull56 (Mar 30, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> New beekeepers may be ignorant,.



I might resemble that remark!


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >.the results of this study are the usual reality for new tf beekeepers.
> 
> The results of this study are the usual reality for beekeepers who don't requeen those packages.


Well, and also, supercedure was a big problem for the packages in that study. In addition to being fraught with disastrous possibilities, if the new queen isn't successfully mated, supercedure does affect colony vitality in other ways.

The only package I bought this spring was a problem from the beginning despite a queen that started laying immediately. 3 weeks in, they superceded her. That happened to the next queen, and eventually the hive ended up laying worker. Had this hive been in that study, it would have been counted as a first year loss, and it had nothing at all to do with treatment or no treatment. If I hadn't had other hives to take eggs from, that hive was a goner. But happily, I was out in the yard today, and I have a half-dozen frames with patches of worker brood in that hive, so I think I've saved it, at least for the time being. It may make it through the winter okay, considering all the brood breaks it's had.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> >The 35 years that NONE of my bees were treated for ANYTHING were: 1975,1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
> ...


That's pretty impressive....


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> What I liked about it was it was not dependent at all on ambient temperatures and it was very devastating to the Varroa population and it could be repeated as often as you like, so once a week for three weeks was a doable thing if you wanted to treat while there was still some open brood.


MB so what do you do as far as controlling varoa? please be specific as possible. People want to know. r 

I am seeing relatively low populations of mites, 10-20 / 24 hr drop. Noticing more opened brood with dead pupae. Also noticing some deformed wing virus, a few bees on the ground. From what I understand powdered sugar dusting is rather innefective when populations are and bees are rearing brood as up to 80% of the mites are capped within cells. 

Overall the colonies look healthy and strong, although if we have spring like last year I would like to do something now to control mite #'s


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> 20 years ago you could buy a package of Southern bees and put them in a hive and expect them to survive the winter in Nebraska. It's been a downhill slide since then. I have not seen that for well over a decade now. Typically a package doesn't make it through the first winter unless it's requeened with local stock. Treat or don't treat, without winter-hardy stock your package bees won't survive a NE or MN or WI or IA winter most of the time. Wintering is all about stock that can survive and not letting them starve.


Same in Louisville and we're closer to the source. Our club suffers many first year Kelley package dieouts over winter.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I am only talking about 2 packages this year, mine and a brother's. Best package queens I've seen, especially his. No supercedure and good health , great brood. Yeah I know it does not count umtil next spring at the earliest. I do not think the pro's are making no progress on resistance.

Michael Bush, you speak of requeening packages with local TF stock. You speak of protecting the micro-enviroment of the hive and gut. Your thoughts on how long it takes a package to restore a natural flora even with requeening?

My personal experiment in TF requeening was less than impressive. No that does not comdemn TF requeening, but it is easier said than consistantly accomplished.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

burns375 said:


> MB so what do you do as far as controlling varoa? please be specific as possible. People want to know. r
> 
> I am seeing relatively low populations of mites, 10-20 / 24 hr drop. Noticing more opened brood with dead pupae. Also noticing some deformed wing virus, a few bees on the ground. From what I understand powdered sugar dusting is rather innefective when populations are and bees are rearing brood as up to 80% of the mites are capped within cells.
> 
> Overall the colonies look healthy and strong, although if we have spring like last year I would like to do something now to control mite #'s


I'm not Michael Bush but I do play a beekeeper in my backyard so I'm going to take a stab at answering this question. While I share Mr. Bush's concerns about changing the ph of the hive and harming the beneficial organisms in the hive I feel it's better to go ahead and hit a hive like that 3 weeks in a row with the oxalic vapor treatment than to do nothing and possibly lose the hive. Generally speaking if I get a hive where I am seeing DWV and then I hit it 3 weeks in a row with the OAV it survives (all other things being equal:enough stores, queen right) and then I don't have to treat for another 2 years or so, perhaps some never. I use it as a crutch to get me from not quite ready to handle the varroa on their own to true resistance.

Rod


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

rweakley said:


> I use it as a crutch to get me from not quite ready to handle the varroa on their own to true resistance.
> 
> Rod


Yeah, me too. Still planning on someday, baby steps.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The NC VSH did fine, until I neglected to requeen. You're supposed to requeen yearly with VSH.

I went South and then West, and so far, I'm impressed with Texas bees.

I don't think that Southern bees are an issue.

However, both types of bees were used in TFB tests.

VSH vs Hybrids backcrossed w/ ferals.

It was real to me.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm just a beginner, but I'm pretty sure that it's lot more complicated than just temperature. A queen poorly adapted to northern latitudes may continue to lay long after an adapted queen will have started to reduce the population. A cluster that's too large, or brood that must be covered when it's time to cluster may result in starvation. Other timing issues may apply in spring.

Just about all crops and livestock will do better if locally adapted to some degree. I can't see why bees would be any different.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> I have to ask this, because it puzzles me: Why do you care about this?


With regularity…and in spring with overwhelming regularity…. I have new beekeepers tell me stories of their losses, asking what might’ve been the causes. Why do they ask me? I suppose because I’m regularly standing at the farmers market with a counter full of honey and wax products and they assume that I’m a successful beekeeper…and might, therefore have some idea why they failed…go figure. And the great majority of them describe classic mite collapses. And when I ask about mites…they often claim that they didn’t have mites, they got treatment free bees from X…or have small cell….or have natural cell….or got a topbar hive….or any of another dozen fraudulent cures that are being pumped on the internet. 
We see them in the spring here on Beesource. Newbie with losses who have no idea whether or not they had mites. And, after all, who can blame them? With countless posters proclaiming….I don’t treat, I don’t test and mites aren’t a problem for me.
Are those newbies naive? Sure. 
Do they deserve to be misinformed? No
And that is why I feel the need to challenge some of the more outrageous claims here.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> The results of this study are the usual reality for beekeepers who don't requeen those packages.


Why requeen? I thought it was a simple matter of getting the bees onto small cell.
Paraphrasing here....Before small cell 100% of my hives collapsed from mites...since going to small cell I've never lost any to mites.
Did I miss something?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> I'm just a beginner


I have to ask this, because it puzzles me. Why would anyone publically push a controversial beekeeping methodology without any significant, personal experience with it?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why requeen? I thought it was a simple matter of getting the bees onto small cell.
>Paraphrasing here....Before small cell 100% of my hives collapsed from mites...since going to small cell I've never lost any to mites.
>Did I miss something? 

Apparently you did.

There are two issues here:

1) Varroa mites
2) Overwintering in a very harsh climate

Small cell solved my Varroa problems. 

Local stock solved my overwintering problems. I don't care what kind of comb you put them on, I don't have luck overwintering queens from warm climates. 

This is what I have said many times. Hopefully this time you won't miss it.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

beemandan said:


> I have to ask this, because it puzzles me. Why would anyone publically push a controversial beekeeping methodology without any significant, personal experience with it?


Where did I publicly "push" anything?

The forum serves the purpose of helping me to clarify my thought processes. To me, the treatment treadmill seems completely irrational, a classic example of continuing to do the same thing over and over, and expecting different results. Neither the results nor the philosophies put forward to justify it seem very convincing to me. From an outsider's viewpoint, there seems to be a lot of trouble in the beekeeping world. Despite the fact that most beekeepers have done as they've been told to do regarding treatment, many have suffered very high losses. It's hard for me to see how doing more of the same is going to turn things around.

And also, I've been an organic gardener for 50 years, and that philosophy works very well indeed. The belief at the root of organic gardening is that you try to enhance and facilitate natural processes and try to avoid practices which damage or disrupt those processes. The idea that you can use a pesticide *to kill bugs on other bugs* without suffering any severe unforeseen consequences just seems a bit insane to me. Remember, I'm a guy who think spraying for* bugs on vegetables* is a dumb idea.

I may be a beginner, but I approached this pursuit with a singleminded lust for knowledge. Early on in my research, it became obvious that there are beekeepers who are able to succeed without treatment. It's my nature to believe that I can figure out how to do anything that's within my physical abilities to do. I believe that if other folks are able to keep bees without treatments, I should be able to do it too.

Of course, I could be wrong.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> Where did I publicly "push" anything?


You just have.

In your 50 years of organic gardening….have you ever treated with insecticidal soaps or Bt sprays or dusts…or any of those other organically acceptable…pesticides?

Or do you simply plant your vegetables and allow nature to take her course?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

beemandan said:


> You just have.


So... espousing a point of view that disagrees with yours is "pushing?" I'm just trying to get a baseline here.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Is Sustainable Permaculture a realistic goal in Apiculture?

I think that it is.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> So... espousing a point of view that disagrees with yours is "pushing?" I'm just trying to get a baseline here.


I think it's the other way around Sol....but I already have a good understanding of that baseline.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> So... espousing a point of view that disagrees with yours is "pushing?" I'm just trying to get a baseline here.


No but half truths and misleading info is, such as leaving out your honey production numbers, or makeing wild claims like southern queens can't handle northern climates.

Pushing is a bit of an understatemant for what is done here.


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## Hazel-Rah (May 12, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> The idea that you can use a pesticide *to kill bugs on other bugs* without suffering any severe unforeseen consequences just seems a bit insane to me. Remember, I'm a guy who think spraying for* bugs on vegetables* is a dumb idea... I believe that if other folks are able to keep bees without treatments, I should be able to do it too.





beemandan said:


> You just have.
> 
> In your 50 years of organic gardening….have you ever treated with insecticidal soaps or Bt sprays or dusts…or any of those other organically acceptable…pesticides?
> 
> Or do you simply plant your vegetables and allow nature to take her course?


For some reason I feel sucked into supporting rhaldrige, perhaps as a fellow organic farmer and as a TF beekeeper. 

Beemandan - while commercial and sideline producers of organic produce may occasionally resort to Bt and other OMRI certified chemicals, there is an understanding that this represents an imbalance in the farmscape.

While producers may resort to treatment of the symptoms in order to produce a crop in the short term, there is an awareness that one must evaluate the balance of inputs/exports on the farm. Instead, seeking the CAUSE of the symptoms, and always striving to use natural balances as opposed to imposing man-made chemicals.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

gmcharlie said:


> makeing wild claims like southern queens can't handle northern climates.


You quoted Michael Bush saying that and then ascribe its saying to me. What gives?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

gmcharlie said:


> No but half truths and misleading info is, such as leaving out your honey production numbers


I post them all the time, what are you on about?



gmcharlie said:


> Pushing is a bit of an understatemant for what is done here.


Huh?:s


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

rhaldridge said:


> Where did I publicly "push" anything?


You've never publically pushed anything without experience? LOL. 

Let me remind you the reason you originally took a dislike to me and eventually blocked me. (although I know you still read my posts). 

It was not, as you have several times claimed, anything to do with treatment / non treatment. It came from your first thread, which was primarily devoted to pushing your idea that long hives must be better because bees like to move sideways rather than vertically. At the time, you had no experience.
Thinking I was helping, I pointed out that bees prefer to move vertically, an observation based on experience. This was met with hostility and refusal to change the viewpoint you were pushing. The argument got so bad you ended up telling everyone you had blocked a certain person (me).

You want an example of pushing something with no experience? That would be one, of many. By the way, I bear no hostility over it, and have no interest in whether of not you block me, happy to chat again if you ever get over yourself. Just, you asked where you have pushed something with no experience, there is one example. Your last post in this thread was another, as keeping bees a few months is not enough time to make a call from experience about the value of mite treatments / non mite treatments.

Having said all that, we all have to start somewhere, we read what we can, and do what seems best. That's fine and the way it should be. Best I can tell, you have thus far done rather well, and researched thoroughly. You have my congratulations. But to claim you have never pushed anything without experience........


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

gmcharlie said:


> No but half truths and misleading info is,


What half truths? What misleading info? I'd be happy to clarify anything you didn't understand correctly.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Hazel-Rah said:


> Beemandan - while commercial and sideline producers of organic produce may occasionally resort to Bt and other OMRI certified chemicals, there is an understanding that this represents an imbalance in the farmscape.


I understand...I am simply wondering if rhaldridge accepts that same principle in his organic gardening that he proposes in beekeeping. After preaching a treatment free sermon on beekeeping without any significant experience....I was wondering if his fifty years as an organic gardener kept him on the straight and narrow in that venue.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

My earlier post got deleted, On this forum the "natural guys like you Solomon, (NOT MB) and preach the the natural beekeeping...... Making anyone who disagrees with your ways feel like they are not beekeepers. instead of being supportive of all and guiding, you like to preach.

Half truths, pointing out that southern queens are inferior when moved north...
Feral bees are more resistant to everything from mites to taxes....
Disparaging those who feed, or treat... as they have made some grevious error........ Fort the most part, I like your post, you actually seem to try to help..... But your constant disparaging of others and there methods grows old......... I think at times your day job is a Jehovah witness... 
Like packages,,, you badmouth them like the plague,,, but fail to realize that 90% of the beekeepers out there use them.
You say southern queens are terrible... yet most Canadians use Hawaiian queens and do fantastic with them......

My original post, I respectuful disagreed with Michael on southern queens.... A good queen is a good queen be she from FLA of NY..... and a bad queen is the same. Lots of beekeepers with more experince than you and me combined have spent DECADES testing both. and found that MYTH to be malarky........

I like natural beekeeping... I do almost nothing for treatments... but not foolish enough to belive beekeeping is anywhere near natural, and that there are any wizards out there.
I have at length tested the Local vs, southern, small cell vs large cell and not fed vs fed......... while my conclusions are my own, I also realize that those who swear one way or the other are usualy wrong. If not the whole world would be buying notheren treatment free queens and nucs. truth is none of it holds up under real world scrutiny as of yet...... some locals it seems to be. working.... but funny how when "survivor stock queens are sold, the seem to be damaged in shipment. or not adapting to the local climate.

I buy queens from over a dozen places...... some in the north, some in the south.... no differences..... some are good, some are not... Feral bees tend to be the same..... some great, most marginal at best.

Reality check is needed...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

That's "Jehovah's Witness." It's not a job, it's a religion. Jehovah's Witnesses have no paid clergy.

I've never claimed to be natural.

"Preach" is subjective, pejorative, and ultimately meaningless outside a church or unless one is standing on a box. I share my experience.

I've always promoted local stock, this comes from experience.

Feral bees are local or at least local long enough to swarm, therefore I promote them. My experience is that swarms survive quite well when established properly.

Disparaging those who feed? Never happened. Maybe you're thinking of Tim Ives.

Packages fail, a lot. I would like to prevent that as much as possible. Buy nucs if you must buy. That's my experience.

My last Hawaiian hive crashed so hard it left a trail of mites across the yard. Just experience.

All my southern queens died eventually. Most died before their first birthday. That's my experience. 

Buy bees from wherever you want. You're not a novice nor a TF, to whom my "preachings" are directed.

That is the reality. Experience is reality.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Thats YOUR reality... 90% of the country has a different one.. which is the part you fail to mention... your living in YOUR world... fine... but the world is not flat because you say it is......

By your own admission, even your natural bees all but died off the first few years.... maybe it was your package supplier, maybe it was your beekkeeping skills back then... don't know... 

Like I said, your a decent guy...... just put away the soap box. and please quit badmouthing the way most get into beekeeipng......... 

Oh the other "half truth you and others like to push is the 
"package queens get superceeded" You forget to mention that a package is an artificial swarm, and that almost all swarms replace there queens within 6 weeks of swarming........ funny how those details get dumped


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Sorry Charlie, but you're mistaken. Sharing my experience which *is* my experience does not equal claiming the world is flat. Even then, disagreement or promotion or recommending against any given method does not equal disparaging people or "badmouthing". That's a fundamentally uncivil accusation. I am one of the most open and forthright users of this forum and always have been. If there's something you don't understand, all you need to do is ask. You don't need to invent my history. That's dishonest.

I share my experience, positive, negative and otherwise. That's realism. I am a treatment-free beekeeper, so that's realism in treatment-free beekeeping.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

beemandan said:


> You just have.


Got it. Expressing an opinion is exactly the same as "pushing." I take it you think that beginners are like children-- they should be seen but never heard. You must face constant disappointment.



beemandan said:


> In your 50 years of organic gardening….have you ever treated with insecticidal soaps or Bt sprays or dusts…or any of those other organically acceptable…pesticides?
> 
> Or do you simply plant your vegetables and allow nature to take her course?


Oh sure. Organic gardeners have all sorts of stopgap ways to bridge between bad soil's sickly plants and good soil's healthy plants. I've used BT, and if there were a BT for mites, I'd probably use it too. It's not a pesticide, and would not affect hive biota negatively. 

I'm not a fanatic. That's why I've never insulted anyone over their management practices. I'm also not an idiot, and I arrived at the choices I've made through research and careful deliberation. Not everyone jumps on a bandwagon because they like the way it looks and it promises to take them to some idyllic location. Some of us read the bus schedules. 

I have to say, Dan, you seem to have enormous contempt for the intelligence of new beekeepers. Everything you post seems to denigrate them, unless they happen to adhere to your narrow definition of proper beekeeping.

Iif you really think TF beekeeping amounts to dumping bees in a box and allowing "nature to take her course," you really don't know enough about the subject to comment on it.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

gmcharlie said:


> My original post, I respectuful disagreed with Michael on southern queens.... A good queen is a good queen be she from FLA of NY..... and a bad queen is the same. Lots of beekeepers with more experince than you and me combined have spent DECADES testing both. and found that MYTH to be malarky.........


I would love to read more about this. Do you have any links to the literature that you are referring to.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rhaldridge said:


> I have to say, Dan, you seem to have enormous contempt for the intelligence of new beekeepers


Not in general but certainly those whose beekeeping knowledge is based solely on the writings of a select few and who then feel the need to regurgitate those controversial concepts as though they are absolute fact.

You, on the other hand, seem to have a great disdain for experienced beekeepers...unless they agree with you. Which makes it especially amazing to me that you were so quick to tell us that you have fifty years experience as an organic gardener…clearly believing that that amount of experience made your opinions more credible….at the same time convinced that experience as a beekeeper is of no consequence…or even less.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

We're not all 'just beekeepers'.

If been able to find many scientific studies on feral 'resistant' stock in the U.S. .

I've also seen many reports of TF beekeepers successfully hiving, and propagating, those same stocks.

With continued reports of feral colonies returning to many areas, how long will it be before we can all take advantage of feral resistant stock?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Perhaps this thread has run its course, given all the debate about "meaning of the word is is."

Yes, time to close another one.


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