# Northern vs Southern Queens



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

So as I medicate my aching back just finishing up with the heavy work of winterizing my hives, like every beekeeper and farmer, I'm starting to think out my ideas from the past season and solidify my plans for the next. I am obviously in an expansion mode and am think about splits and queens so the question is, is there any real differences in what are commonly referred to a "Northern" or "Southern" queens? Last Spring, I was able to add a third deep to 5 hives (as a newbee, I had no real supply of comb) which by late April, fully built out 10 more frames of brood and stores. On May 1st, I did 1:3 splits, moving 2 sets of 8 frames into 10 frame deeps and add 6 frame of blank foundation into the original "mother" 10 frame double deep. May is the beginning of swarm season here and each of splits had a few queen cells and by August, 9 of the 10 splits survived but by season end, while strong, did not produce any excess honey and I am optimistic most, if not all, have a shot to make it through winter.

In retrospect, (and some comments by GG) while my splits worked, they were not the most graceful or efficient splits. This Spring, all things considered, I am going to try the triple deep resource hives and try 1:5 splits with 4 frame (total 16 out of the "mothers" 30 frames) into 5 frame nuc's. It would think I'd like to move a couple weeks earlier on the splits and buy new queens for the splits, rather than wait on new queens developing from swarm cells. So the question is if I can't get "Northern Queens" in mid-late April since most breeders don't produce new queens until mid-June, could I use "Southern Queens" and make a go of it? Is there really a genetic disposition for surviving winters or is it just a matter of adaption? I'm on the line of USDA zone 6B and 7.


----------



## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I think in NJ southern will be fine. Leave them a bit more honey until you know how they roll.
However, I prefer my own queens. I would run the colonies for honey going into the main flow and only split if you get behind them and they are going to swarm. At which point you should be fine with 2-3 (deep) frame splits. Then pull your honey as soon as boxes are ready and do flyback splits towards the end of main flow if you want more colonies. Feed if needed. I don't like to have queenless hives during dearth as they are more likely to get robbed. Overwinter on 8-12 frames (resource hives?). With good technique and overwintering you will have way more bees than you need....


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Isn't it a bit early to be thinking about queens, @LarryBud ?

Winter has literally not started yet.


----------



## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Nope, he's right on the money. Get the plans laid before the sales end in case he needs to buy some equipment to implement them. I assume prices are going to be higher in the coming months for our industry....


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I am of the opinion that it's more about the genetics of the bees, and the breeders management than it is about the northern vs southern queens locations. Here is why I say that...

I've had queens from Mike Palmer in VT (Northern bees) that were excellent queens. I think his are more Carniolan or Russian based, but over the years he's added in the other races as well. I think, in my mind anyway, that he now has his very own Mike Palmer genetics of bees.

I would say that any major breeder that has been at it for 10+ years, it would be safe to say that they have their own genetic line of bees, especially if they've done like Mike and incorporated other races within the mix over the years. let me clarify, any major breeder that does not buy breeder queens each year from another breeder to breed from that year in his/her personal yards. Mike raises from his best each year, and does not purchase from other places to use as his breeder stock each year.

OK so now I've also been using these past 3 years queens from Wildflower Apiaries in Southern California (Southern bees) and they have also been excellent bees for me. They are more Italian based bees, and have been great bees for me. I would say they perform just as well as Mike Palmer's bees did for me back when I was running his here.

So, that's why I say that to me, it's not about Southern vs Northern bees, it's more about the genetics and the breeder that you purchase from.

Now, as to my location, I'm in Northern California at the eastern edge of the big state long valley, at the very start of the foothills to the Sierra Nevada mountains, my elevation is just over 100 feet above sea level, and I'm at almost the very same Latitude as you are LarryBud.

Ok, that's it for now, these are just my thoughts on the issue of Northern vs Southern raised bees.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

there are a few studies








(PDF) Colony Size, Rather Than Geographic Origin of Stocks, Predicts Overwintering Success in Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae) in the Northeastern United States


PDF | Honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) are key pollinators of agricultural crops. However, approximately 30% of managed colonies die each winter in the... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net




butt one of there "northern" lines came form WV and they were testing in southern Pen...... not "north" to me.. they also didn't test any one the stocks in its home area 

SARE FNE10-694 sujest a big difrance
Over the two-year trial, with all colonies included

•lRe queened packages had 50% survivability (local queens)
•28% survivability of the southern packages
•The highest survival rate was the northern nucs at 61%.

but, one has to rember that NZ packages seem to do just fine in CAN


----------



## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

LarryBud said:


> It would think I'd like to move a couple weeks earlier on the splits and buy new queens for the splits, rather than wait on new queens developing from swarm cells.


This year I waited for about 3 extra weeks for a state inspector. I could have gotten local guys but wanted to raise and sell some queens. As a result, I had a few swarms and ended up making some very healthy, well-populated spits with some of the early queens. As I finished up the year having sold nucs, hives, and queens, with no hive beetle or other issues I came to the conclusion that I will never do a walk-away, let-them-raise-their-own split again. 

My advice, raise a few queens from your own stock. There are dozens of ways to do it with very little resources. It will change your bee life. My eyesight is not good, my hands aren't as steady as they once were, and I totally don't know what I'm doing. But raising my own queens changed everything about what I do. If I can do it, I am quite sure you can too.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

There is another option. Here where I'm at, raise queens the end of August and make up nucs with new queens laying by the end of September. Makes nucs with new queens for over wintering so that in spring I have fresh queens with support staff, as Mike Palmer has said, to use for increase or to requeen failing over wintered colonies. This has worked well for me.


----------



## Zippy69 (Sep 5, 2021)

LarryBud, I’m your next door neighbor. When you did your original 1:3 splits did you feed the hives? Yes, I know the flow was strong this year but by feeding constantly…not enough to ferment but enough to be taken in 1-2 days, you may have had better success with bees going through winter. Micromanaging hives every other day to feed is a drag but it works. Also you should have forgotten the idea of”make honey“ when the word split came up. Going from May to now is hard for bees to draw 12 additional deep frames (assuming 10 frame boxes) and fill with winter food. I raise my own few queens every year. I go out in early March pending weather/ year and choose my strongest hives to start feeding. I then pull queen 2+ weeks later amd move to an insulated nuc. 10 days after pulling queen, I dismantle hive into as many insulated nucs as I can [email protected] 2 queen cells a nuc. It’s a lazy way but 1) it works, 2) the workers choose the queens to be, 3) I get at least one new queen at a min….best case 4, 5) should I fail…I know of an overwinter laying queen I have in a nuc to pull a frame of 1-2 day old larvae and have a go. This gets you a new queen in mid April to the beginning of May. 

Just my thoughts for what’s worked for me. I’m sure I’ll be pummeled by others here but they don’t live where I do.😉 Let me know if you wanna see what I do this spring.


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

LarryBud said:


> So as I medicate my aching back just finishing up with the heavy work of winterizing my hives, like every beekeeper and farmer, I'm starting to think out my ideas from the past season and solidify my plans for the next. I am obviously in an expansion mode and am think about splits and queens so the question is, is there any real differences in what are commonly referred to a "Northern" or "Southern" queens? Last Spring, I was able to add a third deep to 5 hives (as a newbee, I had no real supply of comb) which by late April, fully built out 10 more frames of brood and stores. On May 1st, I did 1:3 splits, moving 2 sets of 8 frames into 10 frame deeps and add 6 frame of blank foundation into the original "mother" 10 frame double deep. May is the beginning of swarm season here and each of splits had a few queen cells and by August, 9 of the 10 splits survived but by season end, while strong, did not produce any excess honey and I am optimistic most, if not all, have a shot to make it through winter.
> 
> In retrospect, (and some comments by GG) while my splits worked, they were not the most graceful or efficient splits. This Spring, all things considered, I am going to try the triple deep resource hives and try 1:5 splits with 4 frame (total 16 out of the "mothers" 30 frames) into 5 frame nuc's. It would think I'd like to move a couple weeks earlier on the splits and buy new queens for the splits, rather than wait on new queens developing from swarm cells. So the question is if I can't get "Northern Queens" in mid-late April since most breeders don't produce new queens until mid-June, could I use "Southern Queens" and make a go of it? Is there really a genetic disposition for surviving winters or is it just a matter of adaption? I'm on the line of USDA zone 6B and 7.


I think you are chasing a ghost. For many years my queens of choice were Martha Carpenter mite biters from Frostprood Fl and they wintered near the 47th paralell famously as their descendants continue you to. My advice is to find the best stock you can local to you or as close as [possible to minimize shipping stress on your purchased queens. I used to organize a cooperative and order enough queens to get the queens overnighted UPS in battery boxes. Those queens were always far superior to the onsies and twosies I had shipped USPS. Slow shipping where queens get cold stressed ruins them. Do you have a local bee club who gets in larger shipments?


----------



## 3BeeKeepers (Aug 20, 2004)

Amibusiness said:


> Nope, he's right on the money. Get the plans laid before the sales end in case he needs to buy some equipment to implement them. I assume prices are going to be higher in the coming months for our industry....


I plan like this too before the hives are even covered. Not sure what next year will bring for the line of prices thou. Might want to pay in full your order with the supplier of your bees for this years prices verses next years price


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

I want to say that this is the beginning of an early assessment of my apiaries. I've taken pretty good notes on the performance of each hive, I guess as a smaller beekeeper I have that luxury of time with that but I can see that line between a hobbyist and a pro. Going into winter, I have 32 hives spread across 6 yards, most look strong but at this point I don't think any of us know how many will survive the winter but I am optimistic. Mostlikley, through reading, talking, studying and some good old fashion dumb blind luck, I had 100% survival over my first 2 winters. Planning at this time seems to be a smart idea at this point and recognizing the financial requirements in addition to the biological limits is a big part of planning. I am toying about going to 60-75 hives this Spring, maybe a few more if I can. (If some of you remember the posts by Scoobertdo a year or so ago about going from 0 to 10,000 hives ) I'm not going to break my back and want to keep it fun.

From my current assessment, I want to triple deep 10-12 ten frame resource hives this Spring which, if successful would result 300-360 frames of comb and bees. I would target my strongest colonies and start heavy feeding as early as possible (as soon as high temps are in the mid 50'sF). Half of this number would be my best performing hives, half strong hives that would show an ability for the "mother colony" to recover quickly. I would want to preserve the genetics of my best performers and since I do not have the skills to produce queens (YET) I would do walk-aways and let the new queens open mate. These hives would need to be split later in the Spring when local drones start flying. The basis of this post's question was getting quality mated queens as early as possible, prior to our May-June swarm season here which I would want to get as early as sensibly possible. Obviously this plan depends on several (a lot of) factors, most importantly weather. 

Doing the math- say 10 triples would produce 300 frames of bees, brood and stores (feeding heavily). 150 frames (15 each) would remain with the "mother colonies" with 5 blank foundation frames added and left to grow out into production. The remaining 150 frames, sorted into nucs with brood, nurse bees and stores would produce 30 5 frame nuc's (maybe) and if half are early season, require 15 new mated queens. All of these splits would be heavily fed (per Zippy 69) and our early flow start here with tree and dandelions in late March/early April so mid-April would be the early targeted date. So the question stands (with acknowledgement to Ray, msl and the rest) if I was to purchase "Southern Queens" for my location, would they survive the next Winter or even the first Spring? I would consider possibly re-queening later in the season of necessary.

The economics': (assuming land for bee yards is readily available)

Wooden ware:
30 new Nuc's, complete @ $50 each= $1500
30 new double deeps, complete @ $135 each $4050
Miscl. lumber, hardware for hive stands  $1200

Total $6750 plus another $1000 for stuff I forgot

I guess it doesn't get cheaper or easier as you grow.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Larry there's some local queen producers in Allentown area that would likely be able to provide locally adapted queens. That's a location which is just as warm as yours and not too far - but it's still cold enough to have a broodless period, and cold adaptation. I hope that makes sense.

When it comes to queens - always buy local. Michael Palmer, or others that have been rearing queens for 5+ years. They're rare, sell out quickly but the quality is unmatched.

northern queens tend to forage in colder temperatures, they do not tend to brood up early (e.g., mine do not brood until March), and should overwinter on less honey than southern queens. They also "know" not to make a huge brood nest too early in the spring. Southern queens might expand so rapidly that they wind up starving in April, for example.

I notice it with the cold weather foraging. It's really not unusual for my queens to forage out in the 30s and 40s - it's getting more obvious as time goes on. If it's mid 40s and sunny it's a pretty busy foraging day. 50F they'll be pollen/nectar forage.

When I bought California queens when I first started, they refused to leave the hive until it was well into the 50s, and even in the low 60s. 

Now after years of overwintering up here, they're all out in the 40s.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> .........northern queens tend to forage in colder temperatures, .........
> It's really not unusual for my queens to forage out in the 30s and 40s - it's getting more obvious as time goes on. If it's mid 40s and sunny it's a pretty busy foraging day. 50F they'll be pollen/nectar forage.


Good northern bees actually know better to NOT be foraging out when it is cold (even if sunny) - this amounts to nothing by loss of life and wasted resources.

My backyard Italians are ready to forage no matter how cold and keep bringing more pollen (for what?). The "northern" VSH mutts sit tight and don't waste the time. So that is what I observe.

The talk of Northern bee foraging when cold is.... an exaggeration or at least needs contextual qualification.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Northern vs Southern is a bunch of horse hockey pucks unless controlled comparisons of sufficiently large size have been made. Is it the genetics or where they were raised, or could it be performance compromising conditions that may have occurred during shipping or even time spent banked. 

For certain there are some predictable differences between bees of typically italian or carniolan characteristics but different people in different situations will come to different appraisals of relative merrits of these differences. As has been mentioned, are carni bees from Hawaii northern or southern bees?


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

If anything is worth talking about - the historical bee genetic sourcing.
By this the Carni-derivatives in general are more "northern" than the Italian-derivatives.

Does not matter where you get your Carni blood - from NZ, Hawaii or Wisconsin - the Carni traits will continue the same (if there is appreciable Carni blood presence is there).

Simply Northern vs. Southern bee talk is kinda pointless.
By this logic, the Russian bees are now days mostly "Sourthern". LOL.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Hmm I disagree. 

Foraging at colder temperatures for water, more capable of undergoing cleansing flights, brood shut down earler/later, etc etc the benefits go on and on.

As always, Stick with locally bred local queens from nearby agricultural zones.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

It's also a good consideration why do Michael Palmer's queens sell out in the fall, as do the other queen breeders up there?

These locally adapated northern queens are simply superior. After decades of selection for northern traits, they are unmatched in their quality.

It's a bit confusing as to why this would even be questioned - but I've learned that almost anything will be contentious with beekeepers.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

UN, do realize that the true Northern bees go *without *cleansing flights for up to 7 months - they do NOT need to get out.
This is how they operate - shut down and consume as little as possible (by being the least active possible). Jumping out at every opportunity is not a Northern trait.

To compare the true Southern bees need a cleansing flight every 2-3 months - else they must defecate. They MUST get out and poop - people then confuse this periodic pooping need as, somehow, a Northern trait. 

This is a classic problem and rather old news.
Look at all the experimentation done back in the USSR - the subject has been exhausted well before now days - speaking of the Northern and Southern bees (when the Caucasians have been imported to every last Northern villages as a "superior bee" - the very first winter did them in).
Unsure what is the talk all about.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Here's a reference indicating the superiority of Northern queens, just one of many I am sure:

*In a US study [found here], packages that were re-queened with stock from northern queen breeders had higher overwintering success in a northern climate, compared to colonies left with the original “package” queen.



https://projects.sare.org/sare_project/fne12-756/


*


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Another reference, locally adapted queens are superior:

The influence of genetic origin and its interaction with environmental effects on the survival of _Apis mellifera L._ colonies in Europe









The influence of genetic origin and its interaction with environmental effects on the survival of Apis mellifera L. colonies in Europe


The survival and performance of 597 honey bee colonies, representing five subspecies and 16 different genotypes, were comparatively studied in 20 apiaries across Europe. Started in October 2009, 15...



www.tandfonline.com





Summary
The survival and performance of 597 honey bee colonies, representing five subspecies and 16 different genotypes, were comparatively studied in 20 apiaries across Europe. Started in October 2009, 15.7% of the colonies survived without any therapeutic treatment against diseases until spring 2012. The survival duration was strongly affected by environmental factors (apiary effects) and, to a lesser degree, by the genotypes and origin of queens. Varroa was identified as a main cause of losses (38.4%), followed by queen problems (16.9%) and _Nosema_ infection (7.3%). On average, colonies with queens from local origin survived 83 days longer compared to non-local origins (p < 0.001). This result demonstrates strong genotype by environment interactions. Consequently, the conservation of bee diversity and the support of local breeding activities must be prioritised in order to prevent colony losses, to optimize a sustainable productivity and to enable a continuous adaptation to environmental changes.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

3rd Reference indicating the superiority of local queens: 

Population dynamics of European honey bee genotypes under different environmental conditions



https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3896/IBRA.1.53.2.05



*Summary*
Adaptation of honey bees to their environment is expressed by the annual development pattern of the colony, the balance with food sources and the host—parasite balance, all of which interact among each other with changes in the environment. In the present study, we analyse the development patterns over a period of two years in colonies belonging to 16 different genotypes and placed in areas grouped within six environmental clusters across Europe. The colonies were maintained with no chemical treatment against varroa mites. The aim of the study was to investigate the presence of genotype—environment interactions and their effects on colony development, which we use in this study as a measure of their vitality. *We found that colonies placed in Southern Europe tend to have lower adult bee populations compared to colonies placed in colder conditions, while the brood population tends to be smaller in the North, thus reflecting the shorter longevity of bees in warmer climates and the shorter brood rearing period in the North.* We found that both genotype and environment significantly affect colony development, and that specific adaptations exist, especially in terms of adult bee population and overwintering ability.


----------



## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

GregV said:


> Good northern bees actually know better to NOT be foraging out when it is cold (even if sunny) - this amounts to nothing by loss of life and wasted resources.
> 
> My backyard Italians are ready to forage no matter how cold and keep bringing more pollen (for what?). The "northern" VSH mutts sit tight and don't waste the time. So that is what I observe.
> 
> The talk of Northern bee foraging when cold is.... an exaggeration or at least needs contextual qualification.


My son and I were just talking about this, as regards wind, yesterday. There is some eucalyptus bloom out there, but it was a very windy day and the bees were quiet. He was wondering if they fly when the wind dies down as it did for awhile yesterday. I didn't really have a answer. How do the bees know what to do when it's a windy day?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The best queen might be the most flexible at surviving even though not the most productive. Other people might select for ease of working them with limited protection. I have a bit of experience with bees in an area where they seem to be dominant but I would not thank you if you gave them to me. I think "locally adapted" is a very overused and rather meaningless term but it *is* popular. 
If I took any identifiable bee into an isolated area it would become the dominant bee. Had I chosen another bee *it* would have become the locally adapted bee. If the beekeepers there became accustomed to their particular peculiarities they would be successful. Usually in isolated areas the management has become adapted to the bees there. So which is most important, locally adapted bees or locally adapted beekeepers?
I think many queens that are brought in from long distances and subject to extremes of temperature, lack of royal jelly, dehydration etc. get a black mark as not being locally adapted but that is not due to inherent unsuitability. Locally raised queens with lesser inherent suitability but better environment get undeserved credit for being locally adapted.

I do think though that if you select a mixed bunch of mutts with a variety of habits both Italian and Carni and take them into, say, north west Minnesota or Thunder Bay Ontario, that in a few years the surviving bees in general will be a lot more Carniolan in habits since the others will self eliminate by not wintering well. Now someone indoor wintering might have bees maintaining more of the Italian habits. I believe that Ian Steppler the Canadian Beekeeper blogger has deliberately brought in more Italian habits but he knows how to deliberately shut down their propensity of going into winter with large clusters. Ian is locally adapted, not the bees!


----------



## Zippy69 (Sep 5, 2021)

Larrybud, I read your detailed response. Just get queens that fit your timeline. Your goal is really to draw out comb and micromanage feeding. With a laying queen early in season you will do just that. If you wanna replace queens later…go for it As I would not. I would just overwinter all and prob be surprised at the number that overwinter. I am of course assuming you treat for mites feed ongoing and sole goal is to draw out comb be it deep or honey super comb.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

The literature cited above clearly indicates that locally adapted bees/queens are superior in the Northern climates.

So the next question is who here in the US breeds local queens? Theres a few of them scattered around, but they are often sold out pretty well. Superior northern queens like those bred by Miachel Palmer - when are they first available? I know a few local bee supplier who makes authentic nucs available around the end of may or early june. 

Often southern queens are purchased in April, and converted into "splits", long before local queens could be reared. 

Overwintered nucs a good option - but in these parts they are expensive. I believe Mann Lake sells them for over $220?


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

username00101 said:


> The literature cited above clearly indicates that locally adapted bees/queens are superior in the Northern climates.


kind of... It showed they lived longer TF...

but what the finding were








A pan-European epidemiological study reveals honey bee colony survival depends on beekeeper education and disease control


Reports of honey bee population decline has spurred many national efforts to understand the extent of the problem and to identify causative or associated factors. However, our collective understanding of the factors has been hampered by a lack of joined ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





I am all for local stocks were they exist.. 
step one is people need to keep enough bees alive that they don't need to import queens
step 2 is people making there own form what has survived the winter, better if its 2 winters


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

A pan-European epidemiological study reveals honey bee colony survival depends on beekeeper education and disease control


Reports of honey bee population decline has spurred many national efforts to understand the extent of the problem and to identify causative or associated factors. However, our collective understanding of the factors has been hampered by a lack of joined ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





_The survival and performance of 597 honey bee colonies, representing five subspecies and 16 different genotypes, were comparatively studied in 20 apiaries across Europe. Started in October 2009, 15.7% of the colonies survived without any therapeutic treatment against diseases until spring 2012. _

This is a good study - 600 colonies over 3 years, and the locally adapated queens survived better, even with varroa infestation.

They conclude:

_Consequently, the conservation of bee diversity and the support of local breeding activities must be prioritised in order to prevent colony losses, to optimize a sustainable productivity and to enable a continuous adaptation to environmental changes._

Also - 
_
Beekeepers with better knowledge on disease detection and management (specifically for varroosis and AFB), applying earlier prophylactic measures and good beekeeping practices (e.g. preparation of colonies for winter) had lower mortality rates than others (Tables (Tables11 & 2). _


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

_"The literature cited above clearly indicates that locally adapted bees/queens are superior in the Northern climates."_

That is too broad a statement without explaining why the results are what they found them to be. It takes a broader study with controls and tracking of the imported bees to tease out what all things may have influenced their observations. I just read some of the experiments that Canadian breeder, DesRocher has done on quality questions of queen shipments to and from his operation in Northern Quebec, the operation in California and delivery to other locations in North America. He uses data recorders of time and temperature during shipments and the queens experience some pretty wild temperature extremes. Shipping is a big problem in queen quality. The queens store of drone semen can be negatively affected by high and low temperature exposures.

To me the performance of queens is clearly more complicated than whether they were locally raised. I suggest that if some of the queens that were found superior were exposed to a trip incurring some of the same temperature and presssure excursions that different or more complicated conclusions might appear.

Be wary of simplistic solutions to complex problems.

One of our contributors here used to have as his signature some of the first lines from a poem.

_Drink deeply from the Pierian springs, or drink not at all, for shallow draughts confuse the mind---------_


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Much of the variability in the survival of colonies is connected to the test locations, actually representing differences in climate, vegetation, infestation pressure, and colony management. The average survival period ranged from 80 days for the test location “Probistip” in Macedonia, where all colonies were lost during the first winter period, to 711 days for the test location “Avignon”, located in France. The differences between some of the locations were statistically significant. The course of survival and the adjusted mean survival duration are quite similar for most of the genotypes


worth noting that Avignon is famous for its TF bee pop and most of they stocks did real well there


----------



## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

crofter said:


> _"The literature cited above clearly indicates that locally adapted bees/queens are superior in the Northern climates."_
> 
> That is too broad a statement without explaining why the results are what they found them to be. It takes a broader study with controls and tracking of the imported bees to tease out what all things may have influenced their observations. I just read some of the experiments that Canadian breeder, DesRocher has done on quality questions of queen shipments to and from his operation in Northern Quebec, the operation in California and delivery to other locations in North America. He uses data recorders of time and temperature during shipments and the queens experience some pretty wild temperature extremes. Shipping is a big problem in queen quality. The queens store of drone semen can be negatively affected by high and low temperature exposures.
> 
> ...


Yes, lots of variables involved. Given that, any conclusions reached may be caused by other factors than 'local' or imported queens, IMO. We should all strive to breed our queens from our survivor stock. I've done this for a long time; however, I have yet to see a hive that doesn't utimately succumb to the varroa and related diseases.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Hmmm. There's some misunderstanding here. Those are 3 peer-review studies which indicate superiority of locally adapted queens.

This isn;t a blog - so if the authors and all the peer reviewers felt that those weren't acceptable conclusions, they would have had to remove them. 

But all of these experts agreed in the conclusions published above in those 3 studies. There's more than one study with similar conclusions.

So please feel free to reference counterpoint studies, if they exist. That would be interesting to read. So let's produce some peer-review studies and have a discussion.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Here is a bit of their closing comments. Seems that beekeeper experience may be the greatest influence. Ones having to import more replacement stock than ones that were able to continue on their own resources. Perhaps the conclusion can be made that the cause is the inferiority of the southern bees but I dont see that substantiated.

_<"The limits of our descriptive epidemiological protocol should be taken into account when drawing conclusions. Indeed, any hypotheses expressed in this paper should be fully studied in dedicated experimental protocols to confirm the risk factors and clarify any potential causality [33]. Our study offers observational evidence to suggest the importance of beekeeper training and education. These results must be seen as preliminary until confirmed by direct experimental means.
Go to:
*Conclusion*
Our results show that the main factors protecting honey bee colonies are beekeeper background and practices. More efforts are needed in beekeeper training to promote good beekeeping practices and achieve early identification of clinical signs of disease. Considerable variation of colony losses exist across different Member States and between years. Climate conditions might have a strong effect on colony mortality during the whole year, requiring long term surveillance study to overcome the weather factor. Data from descriptive survey such as EPILOBEE should be used to set up dedicated protocols to study further targeted hypotheses. The promotion of regional scale studies of local practices should be encouraged. Further to this work, the causes of colony losses should be investigated by conducting studies on specific issues as potential causes of honey bee losses, for example case-control studies that include pesticide analyses and landscape recording.">_


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

LarryBud said:


> ... So the question stands (with acknowledgement to Ray, msl and the rest) if I was to purchase "Southern Queens" for my location, would they survive the next Winter or even the first Spring? ...


There are many more variables that play a roll in whether a hive survives over winter than just 'Northern vs Southern Queens". one of the more obvious is Varroa Mite management, as well as stores, queen health, over all colony balance of age of population, and many others. In essence, the management practices of the beekeeper of the hives.
I still stand by my thinking that it's not Northern vs Southern Queens that should be paid attention to, but the quality of genetics and the management practices of the breeder you purchase the queens from. Granted, Northern vs Southern plays a part, but I still think other items of consideration play at least as large or larger part of the picture.

But yes I am aware that my experiences in beekeeping has never been in the colder northern areas, so what I state is based on what I've witnessed here in my location. So, take a grain of salt in what I say I guess. The extreme north can be brutal in winter for the bees. LOL for people too!


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think there are a few elements at play in these discussions. Northern vs Southern AND so called local adaptation. They are not one and the same. Pernsonal thoughts are that if northern means leaning toward Carniolan tendencies then they are more efficient at wintering so could well be locally considered superior in many situations. So called local adaptation power could be based on many factors besides point of origin. Many of the factors based in the habits of the beekeeper rather than the bee. Broad brush definitions are not good at coaxing out the nuances of a question.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Crofter, yes that's one study I read through it, I will bring your attention to:

*Study #3 is much more interesting:







*




https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3896/IBRA.1.53.2.05?needAccess=true



_The most striking effect of the different environmental conditions on colony development was the lower number of adult bees in southern Europe (longer active season) compared to northern Europe (shorter active season). This value, which refers to the whole two years of the experiment, could reflect the tendency of the colonies placed in cold climates to keep high numbers of bees to increase probability of survival during the long inactive season. The fact that local genotypes had higher adult bee populations in their area of origin than outside, could indicate specific adaptations to environmental conditions that allow individual bees to survive longer and thus to generate a larger colony population. This hypothesis finds confirmation in the fact that the same differences were not observed in the brood population, which was actually highest in the southern-most cluster: thus the number of bees is lower and the number of brood cells is higher in locations with longer active season.

1. shorter life-span of bees in areas of longer active season; 2. a higher proportion of foraging bees (not considered in the estimation). It has indeed been shown that reductions in colony population are associated with shorter worker life spans, younger worker foraging ages, and increased rates of comb building, brood rearing, and population growth (Winston and Fergusson, 1985; Winston et al., 1985). T _


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

This study also speaks to the potential dangers of not breeding locally. As this will limits the number of subspecies and ecotypes. Read below:

_Intensive breeding activities during the last decades are limiting the number of subspecies or ecotypes as they favour specific breeds or commercial lines. However, it is well documented that high diversity of honey bee populations still exists in Europe (De la Rua et al., 2009; Bouga et al., 2011; Ivanova et al., 2012). Therefore, the questions to be answered are: why does this high diversity exist? Do we need to preserve it for specific reasons? The results from the colony development in the European GEI experiment show that there are good reasons to believe that the diversity is the result of natural selection favouring specific phenotypes with important local adaptations, resulting in improved fitness of each population._


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Relative mite loads and length of season and bee miles traveled to forage will have an effect on average bee life experienced. varying length of winter shut in affects what is a survivable mite load. I am sure there are many other influences. 

Regarding the value of local propagation of bees vs management that results in the need to have them imported from outside the region; Pretty much a no brainer! I am entirely in favor of that! 

I have no argument with the research; what I find potentially misleading is your interpretation of the result and implications of it. You present your simplistic conclusions of complex data as if it were divine revelation.


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

I found this article as I continue my research and development of my 2022 Plan. I found it interesting and it's definitely influencing my thoughts.

(1) Queen Bee Breeding |Northern vs. Southern Honeybee Queens – The B Farm 

These guys are no boutique beekeepers in clean white jackets producing click bait YouTube videos, they're the real deal with millions of dollars in business and tens of thousands of colonies. The most interesting part of this article is the second paragraph:

Queens grafted raised and bred in southern climates have far better odds of survival in northern climates when other prerequisites are met including, but not limited to, pesticide/fungicide exposure during foraging season, general age of the cluster of  bees going into the winter, age of the queen, sufficient stores of honey and pollen, low mite and viral loads, proper insulation and ventilation of the colony, direction of the entrance, general air drainage at the apiary site,  and average daily temperature/humidity during winter months all play a critical role in colony survival. 

Just a thought.


----------



## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Doesn't that apply to northern queens too?


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

I would think so. I'm starting to believe that there is really not a whole lot of difference. i doubt we could alter genetic makeup of bees in 40 or 50 generation. 50 or 60 years ago there probably wasn't any of these discussion and the bees still survived. But what do I know?


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

The difference is that queens can be raised in the South under ideal conditions much sooner in the season than they can be raised in the North. That link you gave does just that, and they claim having good survival rates taking earlier Southern raised and using them in the North-East.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

RayMarler said:


> The difference is that queens can be raised in the South under ideal conditions much sooner in the season than they can be raised in the North. That link you gave does just that, and they claim having good survival rates taking earlier Southern raised and using them in the North-East.


Certainly! A lot of the queens that are northern in one respect go south to have their babies. This is done I believe with the saskatraz and that Canadian Breeder from Quebec has a California operation where queens can be mated much much earlier. Both the donor queen and the drones can have been developed in the Northern location. What are the offspring then - northern or southern?

Unless you have control of the mating then in many areas there is so much dilution it is unlikely to make much progress. When there is 20 or so times the male influence you are whistling in the wind trying to shift genetics appreciably with your favorite queen.

Edit; Listening to one of Deroches presentation it seems he is putting some effort into better transportation process for queens. The present system exposes queens to some potentially damaging temperature excursions. Shipped queens that dont seem to exhibit expected potential may be compromised in shipping.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

That's not a suitable reference. It's actually sort of interesting just how strange what they write is.

Also - they aren't even really saying anything about northern vs. southern queens - as above poster said - that's true for any queen....

That's why we try to cite peer review studies.

They also make a bizarre claim:

_Raising queen bees in northern climates is not practical because the timing of pollen flows required for the necessary production of brood and young bees to stock the baby nucs needed for timely queen rearing do not occur early enough to sustain production before pollen flows decline._

So Michael Palmer's queen rearing operation isn't practical is that what these people are trying to say?

...also these people claim their yards in Louisiana are nearby buttercup fields. Buttercup pollen is poisonous to honey bees - so if their bees are using buttercup pollen to make their queens - find another queen breeder in a hurry! 



https://www.friendsofthewildflowergarden.org/pdfdocs/ranunculusbeepoison.pdf



_pollen collected from a buttercup can retain deadly protoanemonin for a period of up to three years. Right now, *buttercups are in full bloom* creating a haven of toxicity for unsuspecting honey bees. When bees eat this stored pollen they experience certain symptoms from the poison within minutes_


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

I don't know User-it appears that their money comes from pollination and honey, not so much selling queens. It appears that queen and nuc business it just part of integrated management with several revenue streams. I'm sure they are staffed with knowledgeable personnel. On this forum we have several gurus that everyone likes to quote or reference like Joe Bees said this (pardon to any Joe Bees if there is one here) or has a video showing that. Well, these guys have millions at risk with their business-I'm sure they spend a lot more money than Joe Bees on research and manage hundreds of times more colonies than Joe Bees has ever seen. In college, I had professors that taught different things related to civil engineering but in retrospect 40 years later, they wouldn't have last 3 minutes on some of the project that I built in my career. Real knowledge comes out when you have to out your money, your life and your future on the line every day.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

These guys know how to make money, that's for sure - but some of what they write doesn't make much sense, and doesn't really add much to this discussion.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Michael Palmer over winters fresh queens that were raised later in the start of the season than can be done in the south, then over winters them in nucs. That's how he's able to run his breeding program so well without going south to breed queens. He just over winters young queens in nucs where he's at instead.

Hmm, that doesn't sound exactly right, let me try again. Since Mike can't raise quality queens in his area as early as others do in the south, he raises them a little later under ideal conditions in his area and over winters them in nucs for use the next spring and for sale. This way he doesn't need to go south to raise queens, he just over winters young queens where he's at in nucs instead.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Well there's overwintered nucs and nucs.

Overwintered nucs have local queens that survived the winter

nucs are just splits with inserted queens, usually bought in the south - especially if sold in April when it's not possible to rear a local queen.

Sounds like Michael sells overwintered nucs, but why would he go through all the trouble to overwinter a queen in a nuc - just to sell the queen? So I have to say no - that doesn't sound correct to me. 

As far as I know - you can't "bank" queens in nucs over the winter.


----------



## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

LarryBud said:


> Queens grafted raised and bred in southern climates have far better odds of survival in northern climates when other prerequisites are met including, but not limited to, pesticide/fungicide exposure during foraging season, general age of the cluster of  bees going into the winter, age of the queen, sufficient stores of honey and pollen, low mite and viral loads, proper insulation and ventilation of the colony, direction of the entrance, general air drainage at the apiary site,  and average daily temperature/humidity during winter months all play a critical role in colony survival.


That is one loooooong list of prerequisites you are supposed to meet to have better odds of survival, and some are pretty specific, air drainage, average daily temperatures and humidity during winter, how the heck do you control that? 

IMO any queen would probably do well if all those conditions were met.


----------



## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I believe Mike sells queens when he can make them (starting in May, so first queens available in June?) Then his July/ mid July queens stay in nucs for overwintering, not banked. So he has a much later and shorter queen rearing season than the southerners. They work fine. But hard to supply queens for package industry that late. And for early splits and spring queen problems. The industry is based on the availability of southern bees, yes and queens, available early. If we tried to base all our northern production off only northern bees I think there would not be enough to go around without changing things up a bit. Mike Palmer's methods work for a small professional. I don't think we have any northern bees with more than 10000 colonies. We would need to have a lot more people keeping in the 1000 range like Mike to get all the orchards pollinated without trucking in southern bees (even if they come from northern stock....)
I think if southern bees really could not survive in the north the package industry would be toast. However, if you can find good local queens they will likely survive better. If you want to insulate and feed less then locally adapted bees will be more likely to survive. If you are fine with the added work load of monitoring (which is the fun part anyway) and feeding and whatever else might be needed, the southern bees can be arranged to work fine.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Amibusiness said:


> I believe Mike sells queens when he can make them (starting in May, so first queens available in June?) Then his July/ mid July queens stay in nucs for overwintering, not banked. So he has a much later and shorter queen rearing season than the southerners. They work fine. But hard to supply queens for package industry that late. And for early splits and spring queen problems. The industry is based on the availability of southern bees, yes and queens, available early. If we tried to base all our northern production off only northern bees I think there would not be enough to go around without changing things up a bit. Mike Palmer's methods work for a small professional. I don't think we have any northern bees with more than 10000 colonies. We would need to have a lot more people keeping in the 1000 range like Mike to get all the orchards pollinated without trucking in southern bees (even if they come from northern stock....)
> I think if southern bees really could not survive in the north the package industry would be toast. However, if you can find good local queens they will likely survive better. If you want to insulate and feed less then locally adapted bees will be more likely to survive. If you are fine with the added work load of monitoring (which is the fun part anyway) and feeding and whatever else might be needed, the southern bees can be arranged to work fine.



The studies indicate exactly what you said - that good local queens are just more likely to survive, In fact - some of the results from the study indicate increased varroa resistance so that would translate to less work for the beekeeper. 

With both north and south queens, the beekeeper's practices still make the most significant difference in survivability.


----------



## greg155 (Jun 2, 2020)

username00101 said:


> Isn't it a bit early to be thinking about queens, @LarryBud ?
> 
> Winter has literally not started yet.


If you are going to order queens now is the time.


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

crofter said:


> Shipping is a big problem in queen quality. The queens store of drone semen can be negatively affected by high and low temperature exposures.


I've read that here more than once recently. What seems odd is that semen (human semen anyway) is deep-frozen. How do breeders ship bee semen? Ambient temp or on dry ice/in nitrogen?

And another question that comes to mind: Would it be "bester" to purchase virgins and let them open mate locally? That allows local genetics in the hive, bypasses the stress on the stored semen from shipping, and avoids the loss of productivity from something like a walkway split.



crofter said:


> I have no argument with the research; what I find potentially misleading is your interpretation of the result and implications of it. You present your simplistic conclusions of complex data as if it were divine revelation.


I get what you are saying here. Here's a theory I had, though:

If a person took all of the formal peer-reviewed studies, mashed them together to form "a process," and even flipped a coin where two were in conflict, wouldn't that person be better off than the person who didn't? Statistically speaking, of course.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

LBussy said:


> I've read that here more than once recently. What seems odd is that semen (human semen anyway) is deep-frozen. How do breeders ship bee semen? Ambient temp or on dry ice/in nitrogen?
> 
> And another question that comes to mind: Would it be "bester" to purchase virgins and let them open mate locally? That allows local genetics in the hive, bypasses the stress on the stored semen from shipping, and avoids the loss of productivity from something like a walkway split.
> 
> ...


Flash freezing to _cryogenic_ temperatures usually necessary and an adjudivant added. Different species seem to need different handling. Bovine can be deep frozen but horse not. That may have changed now for horses. I was doing Artificial Semination on my cows 20 years ago. Bulls semen can be damaged by high temperatures. Being able to pull up or let down testicles is a mechanism common bulls use for temperature control. Buffalo do not have that capability. One of the things that make first generation hybrids sterile until back crossed a few times. Just trivia to show how sensitive semen can be. I do not know how bee semen in particular responds. Just passing on what I picked up from Anicet Derochers presentation on temperature excursions on queens which he felt is a serious consideration

Virgins are much more delicate and difficult to handle compared to mated queens but some people have shipped them short distances. Is the potential harm only to stored semen in the queen? Dunno. High temperatures can compromise queens as well as low. Dont know if it is virgin or mated connection.

Arriving at a correct answer via flawed reasoning is not commendable! IMHO of course.

As for a mish mash of facts to arrive at the ultimate wisdom, I am skeptical: Simplistic solutions to complex problems do not come well recommended  The peer reviewing of the day did not do much to promote Gallilleos knowledge. Some people today are still negatively influence by them. Kind of cherry picking but I think you catch what I am pitching.

Edit; for link. file:///C:/Users/%60/AppData/Local/Temp/c9969f86-6902-4d83-b075-729fa7e31d2a.pdf Temp. effects on queens stored sperm.
Sorry, you will have to cut and paste to the browser. Dont know how to hperlink it.


----------



## birddog (May 10, 2016)

Larrybud. Your asking the wrong question. Ask yourself what you want those bees to do. Ie draw wax and raise brood. So select quality bees that do just that. Raise queens for end August of a stock you feel comfortable overwintering. Preferably small cluster bees just incase we see a winter on the rough side


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

The truth is that no evidence has been presented which indicates that southern queens are equal to northern locally adapted queens. 3 Studies have indicated that, however. 

Still waiting on some peer-review evidence to support the notion that southern queens were just as good in the North.

Then again - NJ is one of the warmest parts of the Northern US - so it's probably fine to buy some queens from other nearby warm places like Virginia.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"Pick the hive model that is best suited to your locale, populate it with local bees, and the results will speak for themselves" Georges de Layens, "The Complete Course in Apiculture" 1892

People have been researching this...

Local queens winter better:
Requeening packages
Local queens

Overwintering honey bees: biology and management

Establishing New Honeybee Colonies in Cold Climates - Cooperative Extension: Agriculture - University of Maine Cooperative Extension

http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE10-694&y=2010&t=0

http://pwrbeekeepers.com/sare/sare-final-report-2011.pdf

http://www.southernsare.org/News-an...uccessful-in-Rearing-Local-Honeybee-Colonies/



https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_155604267038113&key=e6f8f4e2356f0ecd2e29116cb90b30ae&libId=juu3l8yn0102686w000DA5pkkv5&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.beesource.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3F353803-Package-VS-Nuc-Challenge&v=1&opt=true&out=https%3A%2F%2Fcoloss.org%2Faccomplishments%2Fthe-gei-experiment%2F&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.beesource.com%2Fforums%2Fusercp.php&title=Package%20VS.%20Nuc%20Challenge&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fcoloss.org%2Faccomplishments%2Fthe-gei-experiment%2F



in Maine:
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE10-694&y=2010&t=1
http://www.nesare.org/State-Programs/Maine/Winter-hardy-bees
http://smallfarms.cornell.edu/2012/01/09/establishing-northern-honeybee-colonies/

"Summary
"Our project explored the differences in strength and survival between three options for starting new honeybee colonies. Over the course of two years 54 new honey bee colonies were started, managed, monitored, and evaluated by Master Beekeeper Erin MacGregor-Forbes and experienced beekeeper Larry Peiffer. The purpose of the experiment was to determine whether survival rates between the groups of colonies would be measurably different, and whether beekeeper choices in colony starts could influence winter survival probability. The project involved three colony groups: Two thirds of our colonies were started using commercially raised southern packages of bees, 3lbs of bees and a queen bee in a cage. (Packages) Packages are the most commonly purchased colony start option available to beekeepers in the United States, comprising roughly 80% of all new colonies started in New England. The second colony group (1/3 of our project) was comprised of northern raised overwintered nucleus colonies, a northern raised queen and her offspring, 5 frames of bees, along with honey comb, pollen, and nectar stores (Nucs). Northern raised nucleus colonies are less commonly purchased because they are less available for sale -- the demand for Northern Raised Nucs vastly outstrips the supply in New England. The third colony group we included is a compromise between the above two choices. Once the packages were established in hives in Maine, and when northern raised queens were available (approximately 60 days after package installation), we removed the queens from half of the package started colonies and replaced them with northern raised and mated queens. (Requeened Packages) We then managed each colony independently and measured their honey production, disease and mite load, and most importantly, survival over winter to see if there were differences between the Packages, Nucs, Requeened Packages. Our results were very promising in the survival differences. In over two years, the adjusted data for survival revealed the following: 42% of the southern commercially raised package colonies survived their fist winter strong enough to be a viable colony in the following summer. 83% of the overwintered northern raised Nucleus colonies were in viable condition, and 90% of the northern requeened packages were in viable condition the following spring. In our project, the Nucs experienced nearly twice the survival rate of the Packages. Additionally, the Requeened Packages also experienced a survival rate nearly double the rate of the 'as bought' Packages. Although executed over two years, our sample size was small (54 colonies started total, but only 39 included in this final data due to colony disqualification) and therefore could be subject to seasonal and statistical error. We will be performing additional work narrowing the study groups to just Packages and Requeened Packages in 2013. We hope to improve the statistical significance of our results through further study, but feel strongly that the promise shown by our first two years offers New England beekeepers an attractive option for increasing the survival of new colonies. "


In Virginia:
http://mysare.sare.org/MySare/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FS08-223&t=1&y=2011
(click on "create pdf" to see the report)

"Summary
"The Prince William Regional Beekeepers Association (PWRBA) producer SARE project compared hives
started from packaged bees to hives started from nucleus colonies (nucs) positively demonstrating higher
survival for nuc started hives than package started hives, with survival differences more pronounced in the second year. Education and training resulted in adopting more sustainable beekeeping practices. These centered on utilizing existing colonies to produce sufficient nucs to (1) replace dead hives, (2) increase apiaries, and (3) provide starter hives for new beekeepers and association members instead of relying on commercially produced packaged bees from outside the region. The number of nucs made available to association members in lieu of packaged bees increased dramatically over the course of the project. Queen rearing was successfully initiated."


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

crofter said:


> Edit; for link. file:///C:/Users/%60/AppData/Local/Temp/c9969f86-6902-4d83-b075-729fa7e31d2a.pdf Temp. effects on queens stored sperm.
> Sorry, you will have to cut and paste to the browser. Dont know how to hperlink it.


That link indicates a file stored locally on a C: drive [likely Crofter's computer]. As such, it cannot be shared in that manner.

But, _perhaps_ this is the paper he is referencing:
_"Queen honey bees exhibit variable resilience to temperature stress"_








Queen honey bees exhibit variable resilience to temperature stress


Extreme temperature exposure can reduce stored sperm viability within queen honey bees; however, little is known about how thermal stress may directly impact queen performance or other maternal quality metrics. Here, in a blind field trial, we recorded laying pattern, queen mass, and average...




journals.plos.org


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Thanks Rader; I see what I did now.

So packages are inferior quality! Not surprising the way they are shaken from almond bees. Are their queens the same quality you would get when ordering queens from a respected source. Are predominately Italian bees the ones being used to requeen the packages as mentioned in MB post above. There should not be much question that there is more carni breeding generally in the bees dominant in more northern states. They certainly are more represented in Canada.
There has to be more at play than simply the latitude of the bees if their genetic makeup is identical. Personally I would choose Carni hands down but if the same genetics are present and one group is superior to the other are we looking at learned behavior or the effects of transportation stress, greater pesticide exposure,disease or what. 
Why?


----------



## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Yes we need peer reviewed studies to prove our own observations! Without them we would be lost! Heck, for many years I drove on the left side of the road half the time and on the right the other half. I was not sure what was best. Then I read a peer reviewed study and that set me straight. Added benefit of the peer reviewed study is that now my wife and children ride in the same car as I so we also save on gas!! (Sheesh!)
The obvious scientific flaw in MBs info as it pertains to this discussion is that we don't know what happened with the queens before they entered the study. As has been mentioned in this thread, temp in shipping, queen production practices, etc play an important role in colony viability and productivity. If southern packages are better than northern nucs seems not to be the case from that info. But if that is due to the genetics of the queens was not described or selected for in the study....


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

we should be encouraging the OP to make his own queens.


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

Mr. Bush-you do realize in 1892 they did not have airplanes...


----------



## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Well yes we should be encouraging all of us to raise our own queens. As was pointed out about Binnie's view, swarm queens are fine with the one caviat. I do think a beekeeper can raise better queens than s/he can have shipped. (If you have a good local source that does not require shipping the queens may be similar quality. And of course beekeeper must pay attention to rearing good queens and getting them well mated etc.) But that was not the original question. Here in upstate NY I prefer carnis. I have friends who prefer GA Italians. Both overwinter fine. The winter management is slightly different but the genetics do not make one superior to the other.
As beekeepers we often get attached to our own ideas about how it Should be and may miss the question....


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think somewhere way back in this thread we became polarized by our individual perceptions. To discuss something effectively it is necessary to first establish common terms of reference. Northern or Southern means different things to different people. A very imprecise term in view of the complicated implications that are being examined. That should have been defined from the get go. Result, cause and effect being misconstrued.

I have the feeling that some distinguished only on point of origin and others on the Italian - Carni typical habits factor. My reaction is to the effect that conditions due to transportation can often mask other causative issues. As Amibusiness mentions different beekeeper management issues can result in different outcomes and cloud issues that attempt to base conclusions on the ill defined Northern / Southern descriptor. If we dont determine causes closely we give up most of the learning opportunities of a question.

I think we have been a bit like the parable about the 7 blind men and the elephant; each one put his hands on a different part of the beast; one grabbed the ear an said an elephant was thin and flat. Another the leg and declared it to be round and thick, another the tail and said it was long, thin, rough and hairy, another a tusk and said it round and hard, etc.
Each one thinking the other was unobservant and stupid!


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

crofter said:


> I think somewhere way back in this thread we became polarized by our individual perceptions. To discuss something effectively it is necessary to first establish common terms of reference. Northern or Southern means different things to different people. A very imprecise term in view of the complicated implications that are being examined. That should have been defined from the get go. Result, cause and effect being misconstrued.


Yeah, sometimes things go right off the rails and off the cliff. You ask 10 beekeepers their opinion and get 11 different answers. It's all good. I'm really looking at getting queens as early as possible to support splits and while this or that might be right, there just aren't northern queens available in my early spring timeline. As an old movie line goes, "A man's got to know his limitations" so I'm looking into getting a dozen or so southern queens to support this first round and see where it goes. At least I'll have hard solid evidence if it works and even if doesn't, hopefully by then I'll have my own local stock to requeen with. I'll update as I progress.


----------



## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

LarryBud said:


> I'm really looking at getting queens as early as possible to support splits and while this or that might be right, there just aren't northern queens available in my early spring timeline.


While it's "paying twice" you could always get a prolific queen (thinking Italian) from the south in the springtime for your splits/nucs, and then re-queen after the flow?


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

I'm probably going to go with some southern Pol-line Italians queens early to get started. If I have to replace them, I will, no big deal but I'm leaning on the side North vs South doesn't matter, forage, growth and management does. I obtained a few VSH F1's this past season and they did well although I did treat them over the fall just as a measure of safety. I was correctly warned that VSH does not mean mite or treatment free-we're just not there yet. I also have a line of my own queens from random nuc's (3 years ago -my first colonies) which have shown strong hygienic traits and are my best honey producers but have never been mite free. (this hive has been split 4 times and all of the daughter display the same traits). The North South thing was really about maximizing my colony increases starting as early as possible using a group of colonies as resource hives over the next season. If I take 10 out of production for resources, with a good flow and feeding as necessary, we can repeat the splits several times over the summer. Once I'm in to June, I can get Northerns and by the end of July, produce my own queens finally and have our own in-house experiment next winter


----------



## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I don't know when your dearth is but I would not bank on getting queens mated well when there is dearth (even if you feed) due to robbing pressure. So I would recommend your queen rearing coincide with your prime swarm season. When you get more experience you can certainly push those limits but I recommend getting that experience first....
The downside to importing queens as you describe is if you have any locally adapted traits you will be watering them down. In which case you would want to limit imports to specific lines that would improve your lines. The other downside as mentioned in various ways above, is that the shipping may adversely effect the queens....


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

Our dearth's are not horrible here, typically a 2- or 3-week period at the end of August, if we have one, before the knotweed, asters and goldenrod start which we ride out until the mid-November frost. With 32 hives, I've never really had any robbing (knock on wood) and have multiple hives in line a couple feet apart. I'm also at the head of the coastal plain about 30 miles east from the ocean, 40 miles north of Delaware Bay, at the foothills of the Allegany Mountains. Even though I'm only about 2 -3 hours south of you, were much more temperate and on the zone line between 6B and 7 which lends the question are we North or South? We can get a couple feet of snow or have no snow at all in the winter, rarely make it to 20F in winter and then only for a day or two. 

While I think wintering traits are more subspecies (Italian, Russian etc.) related, were not at the North Pole or the Tropics. I'd make the bet that Southern bees, if they don't have good wintering traits, would still make it here. I would say that in modern times, with jet flight, Amazon and electricity, with commercial bees being moved all over, dilution is not an extreme factor.


----------



## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Well that's a good reason to move to NJ. We get down to 0F and usually have a 4 to 6 week dearth between spring and fall flows. I aim to have strong colonies by then with space and entrance appropriate for their size. Mostly my robbing issues are that they get more defensive if I keep them open too long but one year I attempted to raise queens later in the year and had dismal results. It seemed like the guard bees were not motivated to guard without a laying queen.... It's snowing here right now and the temps for the foreseeable future are between 20-40F....


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think the bees leaning toward Italian habits can be _pursuaded_ to set up a more efficient winter hive. If you know what to expect I think (mostly from what I have read, as my bees dont need much supervision in this regard) they can have their brooding curtailed by massive liquid feed that cuts back the queens laying till the weather cools enough that she cuts back on her own. They will start brood up earlier and sometimes and get locked on brood if weather turns back cool. Be prepared to have some sugar on top of the frames. My son has had that experience a few times in south east ontario where there seems to be a fairly high level of Italian in the surrounding bees. Their manners are not so nice either but they do make honey!


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

Last winter, I had five hives of Italian Mutts, insulated, treated per my IPM plan and heavily stored after producing 100# of honey each I had a 100% overwintered. They had brood all winter and the snows in January/February was covered with dead bees as brood hatched and old bees went to bee heaven (the snow). In mid-March, I added a third deep to all of them and in a month, they filled the third box wall to wall new comb and nurse bees. (This was the reason for the original post if you missed it.) I had 30 heavy frames in mid-April but doing walk aways,(May 1st) it took a few months for them to really get going but 9 out of 10 splits are now being wintered and look Ok. It just took forever for the new queens to mate and get going. I think if I do it this Spring and have the same success in building brood, I'll do 1:4 or 1:5 with new (mated) queens and feed like heck, I could accomplish the same goal-just earlier and stronger by Summer. I think all of the commentary is about making it through the following winter. By July, I would think we'd be close to double deep and maybe 20 full frames built out with brood and stores. I think these early Southern Queen could then be judged for certain aspects of productivity and a re-queening decision could be made. Local, Northern Queens could be obtained by then like Mr. LBussy said. I think we shouldn't lose track of the investment in just hives to get there and if a $30 queen closes the loop, so be it but I still think they'd make it. Hopefully by then I'll be competent in producing my own queens-that's my goal for next season. I'm going to take a queen rearing course in February.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Since you are deliberately in the expansion mode, it appears that those queens are doing the job. If you are also not having problems overwintering what more could you ask for. If someone were in a colder climate and did not want to feed etc. they probably would not winter as easily. When you reach your target in colonies you could change up to a more conservative bee if you wished. In one summer you can shift your genetics greatly. You will be studying aspects of that with the queen rearing course.

I have very little forage before middle of June so would not be well served by the bees you had this summer. I dont know what their disposition is but I think there are few that would match the puppy dog manners of these I have; Inspectors have marveled at them. When you get to raising your own queens you could dial them down to suit your mission then. This could be easy or tough going depending on the background of drones in your area. Have you looked at University of Guelphs drone colonies on an island in a lake about 75 miles away where they take their mating nucs?


----------



## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

LarryBud said:


> ) I'm not going to break my back and want to keep it fun.


If you’re at 32 and it’s still fun, hats off to you. I think I’ll keep enough for some light queen-rearing (donors of eggs and separate drones), and sell the rest of the boxes empty. Then refill them throughout the summer with a few excess queens. Once it’s over 20, I spent 3 hours of prep work for every hour in bees. Fun stopped around mid-July. Looking forward to getting it back, and tightening up some time management on the parts I don’t like.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

LarryBud said:


> I am toying about going to 60-75 hives this Spring, maybe a few more if I can. ......... I'm not going to break my back and want to keep it fun.


Maybe my memory is failing me, or maybe your memory is failing you?
Weren't you complaining about the heavy work load this summer with 30 hives?


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

clyderoad said:


> Maybe my memory is failing me, or maybe your memory is failing you?
> Weren't you complaining about the heavy work load this summer with 30 hives?


LOL!!!! Absolutely!!! But lifting supers, hauling feed and building hives is my new exercise regimen!!! And the bees don't charge me like a gym! 😏


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Beekeeping will be the most expensive exercise regimen. If you're looking for cost savings on exercise, going to a private gym in Manhattan would probably be more affordable than managing 70 colonies.


----------



## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

username00101 said:


> So the next question is who here in the US breeds local queens? Theres a few of them scattered around, but they are often sold out pretty well.


I had a few main reasons for learning to raise queens.
1. To have queens when I needed/wanted them.
2. To have a local repository between Chattanooga and Nashville TN so anyone in that radius could pick up a few queens locally.
3. Play around with genetics.

I found out this past year that 2-3 other people (and probably many I don’t know) service the same area. Within this group I think most are raising 100-200/yr, 20-30 in a run (so servicing hobbyists) I had people calling for queens and if I didn’t have them I’d check with a friend. If he didn’t have them I’d send them to folks I’ve never met but heard good things about. If they were out I’d suggest Kelley/ML or someone down south.

My bud’s bees mostly came from swarm trapping a 30sq mile radius so just about anything. But they seem to survive.

Several other people have tried leaning heavy on queen rearing within an hour of our location, but it’s a feast/famine thing. One of them is sending a trailer or two to the almonds next Feb, after abandoning queens sales.


crofter said:


> Many of the factors based in the habits of the beekeeper rather than the bee.


I agree generally. I think everyone adapts to where they are and what they have. I think if you live in extreme heat or cold there may be a benefit to a certain line. But the bees most of us run are pretty adaptable.


LarryBud said:


> LOL!!!! Absolutely!!! But lifting supers, hauling feed and building hives is my new exercise regimen!!! And the bees don't charge me like a gym! 😏


Your bees don’t charge you? ... Mine sure charge me. They worked me hard for minimum wage and I had to loan them money constantly.


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

username00101 said:


> Beekeeping will be the most expensive exercise regimen. If you're looking for cost savings on exercise, going to a private gym in Manhattan would probably be more affordable than managing 70 colonies.





joebeewhisperer said:


> Your bees don’t charge you? ... Mine sure charge me. They worked me hard for minimum wage and I had to loan them money constantly.


Do you have any ideas what the tolls at the tunnel are???


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Your bees don’t charge you? ... Mine sure charge me. They worked me hard for minimum wage and I had to loan them money constantly.


Sounds like my kids.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Hi Larry
since "locale matters"
I would do an experiment.
split your plans into 1/3's
1/3 spring southern queens --sooner will time be better that genetics
1/3 wait for northern queens --later with hopefully better wintering queen genetics
1/3 roll your own from the "best" 1/3 of your hives. --both the above are not locally adapted, these would be, and free ish

then you can answer the question rather than ask it.
a) IMO every locale is different
b) cannot predict what yet unordered and unshipped queens performance would be.
c) splits up your "work" into 1/3's
d) get rid of the worst 2/3 of your queens, when requeening with shipped queens.

so make 3 plans one for each do each one to the best you can , keep tab of costs.
at the end of the day if your best 1/3,, you raise are the best then you have cost VRS time to relate to for the others.

first 2 options rely on others if that matters to you , last option keeps you able to handle years where queens are hard to get.

GG


----------



## SWM (Nov 17, 2009)

Short answer to the OP: Yes, you can make a go of it using southern queens. Northern beekeepers, including many farther north of you, have been doing so successfully for decades. That doesn't mean you shouldn't experiment with queens from other locations, including those raised locally. But this notion, while logical, that bees raised in the south cannot perform well in the north or survive northern winters is just not true.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Hmmm, there seems to be a misinterpretation of the content of the posts on this thread.

No one that I can read here, is suggesting that southern queens cannot successfully overwinter in the North.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Are you still using that inaccurate term? No wonder the room for misinterpretation!


----------



## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Larry
> since "locale matters"
> I would do an experiment.
> split your plans into 1/3's
> ...


I'm going to listen to you this year Goose. I did ok with the triple splits last year-so far at 90% but we're just hitting winter right now-flurries out my window. I could have done more with the frames I had, all healthy and strong and had followed some advice. Problem is with planning is nature usually has her own plans and they don't always match one's own=well see in 4 months.

i did get up your way in early October for that wedding-really pretty country. Stayed on the lake in Northport and found some Petoskey stones along the beach!


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

The point is that queens from different parts of the nation can survive wherever they are placed. This is well known, no debate needed. 

We're moreso discussing the details and management consequences of having southern bees up north. Certain "breeds" can have traits that are better up north, and locally bred will be the ones that thrive under those conditions the best.

Sourcing queens is pretty tough - lots of good salespeople out there selling "special breeds", this VHS thing, "buckfast", "pure Russian", "caucasian". Many great sales tactics.

Truth is, it's VERY hard to actually find an authentic Russian, or a VHS queen that's legitimate and not some 5th generation daughter or some inpure mutt that's being branded as VHS by "Mr. Salesperson beekeeper who's been selling bees for years". 

Local bees are best because they aren't really more than superior mutts that perform best in their particular location. No "special breeds". Just local mutts with traits that favor a particular zone and their unique local conditions.


----------



## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

I find all this talk of breeds boring disturbing and frankly a waste of hot air.

Unless you can control who a queen mates with, you are going to have mutts.

Seems like every colony I have seen has 2 or 3 different color bees.


I value local survivor stock, over some tarted up hoe's. Don't care what color they are.....


Don't get caught up in chasing the prefect bee, coddle the ones the do well for you and sell the ones that don't!


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Like I said back then:


> Well, I am yet to see pure-enough breeds (granted I only the beginner, but the trends are becoming visible).
> The real issue for the North American case - we deal with random hybrids left and right.
> With few exceptions, I suspect there is no pure bee around here to speak of (outside of the marketing buzz, mis-information, and outright lies).


Source:








FREE tools for honey bee wing morphological analysis.


Here is one free tool for honey bee wing morphological analysis. It is called MorphoXL. This is originating in Ukraine and developed and maintained by a guy mostly interested in the Ukrainian bee breeding (A.m.Sossimai) Has English instructions generated via Google (so is expected to be...




www.beesource.com


----------



## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Greg sed:
"There is a need for totally different approach - identification and classification of certain hybrids (vs. the pure bees)."

That is why I say to coddle the colonies that do well for you, make queens from them. 
Take from the best of those queens, and you will have started your own breeding program.

In the long run it is easier to buy packages 
(I'm surprised regulators are allowing packages to be sold without inspections. yet I have to wear a mask...)
/rant


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

JustBees said:


> I value local survivor stock, over some tarted up hoe's. Don't care what color they are.....





JustBees said:


> In the long run it is easier to buy packages


easy to say in a zone 8b... north vs south queens mater little to you, and you have the jump on the queen rearing season if you want to make your own 



JustBees said:


> I find all this talk of breeds boring disturbing and frankly a waste of hot air.


hardly... plenty of II and iso yard breeders,,,
but
while the gentilic pedigree may not be 100%... its much like a brown tabby domestic short hair (cat)
the "breed standard" for bees it is an expectation of traits
you expect "CA Italians" to be yellows, gentle, productive with large colonies, and eat a lot of winter stores and build up early (too early in some places)
you expect "carnys" to be dark, start later in the year and then show large growth, and winter on fewer stores


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

_That is why I say to coddle the colonies that do well for you, make queens from them.
Take from the best of those queens, and you will have started your own breeding program._

Yes, and in my humble opinion, we here should be encouraging ALL of our beekeepers to do this - whether they want to expand to a X # of colonies, or just wish to continue.


----------

