# Is a 1-Deep hive viable?



## Hoxbar (Mar 1, 2010)

My mentor has been keeping for almost 60 years here in Southern Oklahoma. All of his hives consist of one hive body and a shallow super. I did not think that would be enough but when I moved the hives they were manageable and full of healthy bees. The bees seem to be doing fine and are mite free and haven't needed medication in about 10 years. It still took 2 people to move them but I bet they weight around 90lbs. Our area is different than yours but it works around here.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

I run all my hives in single deeps then add medium and shallow supers during the flows. 
It really all depends on your winter. If your winter is mild, then a single deep is totally fine. I have not lost a single deep to winter loss in years. My only winter losses have been 5 frame nucs. 

btw...our winter here in Alabama see maybe once or twice where the temps get into the teens for more than 2-3 days. The rest of the winter it averages lows in the 30's and highs in the 40's.


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## HBH (Oct 16, 2008)

You can absolutely do this. You will need to manage it like you would a nuc. Lang hives get huge because of all of the space the bees are given. If they have a smaller place, they will utilize it like that is _all_ the space they have. Like with nucs that are left, swarms are more likely. And, as someone else mentioned, you may need to be more attentive to your winter preparations. Maybe in CA that's not needed, but it sure is here in MD. Good luck!


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Jerry,
A retired commercial beek that I spoke to here in Lancaster CA said that all he ran was a deep and a medium for the brood chamber. No excluder! I am planning on two deeps for the brood chamber. I just want to be sure not to get brood in my honey this summer (fingers crossed!). However, experience may allow me to figure out the best configuration for my area/tenure. 
When I was driving to NorCal for Easter I saw a lot of palletized single deep hives out in the almond fields. Maybe they will expand to two deeps later on? I do not know if they are really after honey, They get paid per frame of bees. I could be wrong.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I will caveat this that I have never kept bees in a warm climate, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But I can't imagine trying to keep them from swarming with only one deep for brood... it certainly would not work here. Wintering is another thing, but just swarm control would be tough, I would think.


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## B Reeves (Oct 2, 2009)

I dont think you will be able to produce honey with a single deep, plus you will have to remove frames every day to keep the queen from swarming, stick with the two boxes and concentrate on keeping the brood box open to avoid swarming, if you do anything this year to advance your knowledge do a search on swarming on this site. good luck
Bob


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I produced these crops on single brood chambers with 11 1/4" deep frames.

http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t7/odfrank/?action=view&current=SanMateo2007002-1.jpg

http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t7/odfrank/?action=view&current=Bigjumbo2009.jpg


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

odfrank,
Sorry to get off topic, newbie question here. Is that your harvest ready for extraction? How many colonies did it take to produce?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

ccar2000 said:


> odfrank,
> Sorry to get off topic, newbie question here. Is that your harvest ready for extraction? How many colonies did it take to produce?


That is at time of crop removal. Each stack of boxes is a colony.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

I guess I'll defend myself...

I run 1 deep brood chamber and then add supers during the flow. Here's how I manage swarms, honey, etc...

1. During "swarm season", I check hives once a week for swarm cells. If I am not wanting to grow my number of hives, I pinch off the cells. If I want to grow, I take the frame with the swarm cell and place it in a 4 or 5 frame nuc(after making sure the Q is not on that frame, of course) By flow's end, they have usually built out all the frames in the nuc. 
2. I do use an excluder....and I get plenty of honey. Usually 2-3 supers during the tulip poplar/clover/wild flower flow here in AL. I add one super back on after extracting and allow them to keep all of the honey from the goldenrod flow in late summer. 

Why do I do it this way?
1. I learned this from my father, a 40+ year beekeeper.
2. One deep keeps swarm cell checking simple. They still make them on 2 deep set ups. 
3. 2 strong single deeps make as much honey as a 2 deep. 
4. Finally, to be honest, have single deeps allows me to watch how different queens work. It's just a quirky joy I have.

Blessings to you...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes, OD, but 12 Dadant deep frames is actually enough room for a queen... where 10 deep frames, in my experience, is not. Yes, a single Dadant deep box with 12 - 11 1/4" frames is about the right amount of room for a queen to lay... even with 11 it's pretty good...


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Michael Bush said:


> Yes, OD, but 12 Dadant deep frames is actually enough room for a queen... where 10 deep frames, in my experience, is not. .


Twelve is better but ten has been working also for me. Proof is in the pic. In my area brood chambers are so honey clogged that even more than the four outside frames are solid honey all the time.

http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t...o2007002-1.jpg


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Michael - how tall are you? This is an amazing stack!

I work with one FS brood plus an excluder and one FS honey box and have done this for many, many years. I averaged 150 kg per hive last year ( a good year) Looks like different ways in different climates.
How do people handle any size box from such a stack full of honey? I would love to see a video.


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## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

One deep and one shallow for the bees is the standard around here. Except for a few folks who want to "keep bees like the big boys". I'm sure you have to be a bit more careful regarding swarming and stores but I prefer the smaller brood nest by far.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael - how tall are you? 

I think you're refering to OD Frank...


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Wasn't it Allen Dick who said "Run them as singles, winter them as doubles"? In Alberta. Also had a calculation at some point showing that a queen can only keep 5-6 frames full of brood?


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I run about 850+ single deep hives this way for years and only produce about 150 lb avg. per hive. Yes that is about 60+ ton each year in singles. If you want to winter them, you will have to feed heavy after the harvest. Before the mites I had winter a lot of my bees in singles.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

When I was a commercial beek I used single deeps exclusively. I made tons of honey, literally and had very few swarms. Every region is different and some genetics are more prone to swarm. A smaller space gives the bees the advantage against intruders and is a key factor for queen breeding and comb honey production - go figure!


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

dcross said:


> Wasn't it Allen Dick who said "Run them as singles, winter them as doubles"? In Alberta. Also had a calculation at some point showing that a queen can only keep 5-6 frames full of brood?


Yup. I said something like that. The standard box was designed to provide adequate space for the brood produced by a good queen, but not a lot of feed.

Do the math and post your calculations.

Consider, though that some standards are used with only nine frames and that Pierco, for example can carry 20% more brood per frame than most wooden frames with standard plastic foundation, so the specific instances can vary.

I ran plenty of singles, both as comb producers and as honey producers. I never cut cells or worried about swarming. Supering early was my swarm control. 

A word of warning, though, you have to know what you are doing and be there when the bees need you. If you are off a few days in spring, in one box only, they are gone. In fall, in one box, they'll be starved days after the supers are pulled if not fed or on a good flow.

I never had any luck wintering singes, either on floors or above other hives. If, though, I placed a box under early in fall and fed, they did as well as doubles and by spring, I could not tell the difference.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Another vote here for single deep brood chambers. With timely manipulations, we had some hives up to 16 frames of brood before the honey flow. I also believe you get more honey because you can take what would otherwise be in the second brood chamber. We have been doing it this way since at least the 30's. maybe longer, I can check.

Roland
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Roland said:


> Another vote here for single deep brood chambers. ..... we had some hives up to 16 frames of brood before the honey flow.


I know what you mean but some are going to wonder how you get 16 frames of brood in a single brood chamber.

What he means(I think) is that at the start of the flow you exclude the queen to a single brood chamber so everything above that becomes honey storage. As the brood in the second deep, which was part of the brood chamber before the flow, hatches out the bees will fill that with honey. Less brood to feed with the single deep and by the time all that extra brood you could of had with more brood space hatches out the flow is over and all you accomplished was less of a crop and more bees to feed with no flow.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

1-Deep can be great honey producers. I've experienced a 300lb average over 400 hives that were singles. A couple of years ago I had some singles that produced over 450 lbs each - 12 deep supers very full of honey.

Wintering works well in singles as well. There is an outfit in northern Saskatchewan that winters singles outdoors. I've wintered several hives outdoors but with mixed success. Indoors they winter well for 5+ months a year.

Biggest problem with singles is "feast and famine". Very little leeway between starvation and being plugged. Without constant monitoring they will starve or swarm much quicker than doubles will.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> Wintering works well in singles as well. There is an outfit in northern Saskatchewan that winters singles outdoors. I've wintered several hives outdoors but with mixed success. Indoors they winter well for 5+ months a year.

Yes. I only winter outdoors. I have seen others have good success, but never had any luck. Indoors, everyone reports good results.

> I know what you mean but some are going wonder how you get 16 frames of brood in a single brood chamber.

That is one of my pet peeves: confusing "frames with brood" with "frames of brood". Another is overestimating queens' abilities. 

Larry Connor is a guy I really respect when it comes to saying how it is. As I recall, he figures a queen that lays 1,200 to 1,800 eggs a day on average is about as good as we can expect. Some claim 3,000, but most of us do not see that over time.

I notice nobody did the math homework suggested, so I'll attempt it. (Maybe some did and just did not believe what they got). 

If it takes 21 days from egg to emergence, that is 21 days x 1500 cells/day of brood on the go at any given time. I get 31,500 cells in all stages.

A standard frame has what? I'm using what I consider to be a normal average: 5.2mm cells and that yields very roughly 3600 brood cells per side? 17" x 8" x 27 cells/in^2? (If confused, see http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/cellcount.htm)

Since a frame has two sides, that gives roughly 7200 cells/frame. 

31,500/7200 = 4.3 frames -- laid full for a pretty good queen.

A standard has 10 frames, so even a queen laying 3,000 eggs a day should be able to get by.

I have broken many doubles down to singles, frame by frame, in peak season for making comb honey, and typically I got eleven to twelve singles from ten doubles. Keep in mind that many of the frames going into the singles were not 'frames of brood', but 'frames with brood'. Many had just a small patch, but we put anything with even a square inch of brood into the singles.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Quote "A standard frame has what? I'm using what I consider to be a normal average: 5.2mm cells and that yields very roughly 3600 brood cells per side? 17" x 8" x 27 cells/in^2? "

Out of curiosity I counted the cells of a new FS sheet and there where 3080 cells on each side ( plus quite a few 1/2 cells) so the calculation provided is pretty spot on!
I would have never guessed.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Allen Dick: I stand corrected."sixteen frames WITH brood". My bad. We consider anything over 2/3 full "of". Where do you draw the line? 

BeeSlave : The queen is always restricted to one deep. We move the frames around so that she has ample empty cells available. 

The eggs per day may be an average, but a few summers ago we had a weird event of pent up desire to lay, and when the dam burst, most of the hives in that yard had 4-5 frames WITH(almost full)eggs. We where shocked.

Roland


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> We consider anything over 2/3 full "of". Where do you draw the line? 

To me a 'frame of brood' is literally a frame of brood and anything less is a _'frame with brood'_. Most frames are frames with brood which need, technically, to be estimated as partial frames. 

A frame of brood with a ring of empty cells or honey and pollen around the edge is only about 2/3rds of a frame (do the math), but most beekeepers would count it as a whole frame.

I doubt that I'll ever change the way beekeepers measure and describe their brood, though. 

For one thing, in pollination, who wants to cut the numbers in half, especially when talking to non-beekeepers who are paying by the 'frame'?

For another, as one fellow told to me about beekeepers talking about their bees, "First liar never had a chance".

The terms 'frames of bees' and 'frames of brood' are sufficiently malleable to allow for some wiggle room in contracts and to allow for enjoyable exaggeration in discussions.

Bee Culture had a video about pollination in which they distinguished between the two, then blithely went on to interchange the expressions. I give up.

I wrote about this a decade ago. Nothing has changed. The link is here: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/broodframes.htm

Larry Connor uses an eyeball estimate in tenths of a frame and says agreement within 10% is typical for experienced workers and that is close enough for all. In queen breeding and scientific work, the estimates beekeepers typically use are meaningless.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Allen Dick: Thank you for your reply. I will try to use your definition. 

Roland


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

If you are making comb honey, it's a standard practice to take a two deep and reduce the bees down to a one deep. It forces them to go up into the comb. One of the better ways to get very pretty and complete Ross Rounds. Just ensure that you put 2-3 supers on immediately.


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## Jerry Kinder (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: Is a 1-Deep hive viable? < THANKS*

:applause:Thanks for all of the inputs. From what I’ve read it sounds like a 1 deep hive is a good idea if I keep an eye out for swarm cells and I keep an open super (with queen excluder) on the hive to give them room. As they start filling it up I will slip another super between it and the brood chamber till I get a beehive sky scraper like ODFRANK in the picture. To be honest I'll probably pull the first full one I get just to get my first crop of honey. Thanks again for the help. Jerry


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Re: Is a 1-Deep hive viable? < THANKS*



Jerry Kinder said:


> :applause: till I get a beehive sky scraper like ODFRANK in the picture.Jerry


You have some pretty big boots to fill...That hive was a double brood chamber. My single brood chamber hives have 11 1/4" frames. I only allow single brood chamber hives with 9 1/8" frames on hives that are from new swarms. I consider single standard brood chambers too small for the spring brood cycles.

I never bottom super. Usually when a hive is in honey storing mode they will easily work on top of full supers. If they refuse to work up into the first super, they are bent on swarming. Some hives in my hood will fill two supers and then swarm because we have a long extended flow.


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