# Feral stock not as advertized



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

A great deal depends on other colonies in your area. Given your efforts to control mites with OA, the mites in your hives now probably came from mites brought in earlier this spring. I would get some known treatment free queens and requeen the worst mite infested colonies. I would confirm the queens were being shipped and then cage the queens in the colonies at least 10 days prior. This would give a brood break just before the new queen is introduced. At your discretion, treat with OA and then intro the queen. If for any reason the shipment of HR queens does not happen, you can still release the old queen. A check for queen cells during the time the queens are caged should be done. This is not a cure because it does not address the fundamental issue of susceptible genetics in your region. It will move your bees more in the direction of resistant than appears possible with current genetics.


----------



## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

How do you think your bees would compare to a 20 colony apiary of common Italians purchased from a large breeder? Why not stop catching swarms, do only cutouts from colonies that you know are several years old, and start culling your colonies, breeding queens from only the best hives. I suggest doing one and at most two OAV treatments per year when the brood level is low.
Those colonies that you don't think will make it could be re-queened from a strong colony, by pinching their queen and transferring some young brood, next spring those colonies should have better genetics. I think with some selective culling, in a few years you would see an improvement, to the point you could do without treatments or have productive colonies with a couple of soft treatments like OAV.


----------



## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

I'm fairly new-third season, so take this with a grain of salt.

Even in the best of possible worlds I doubt that a treatment-free colony would be mite-free. I would be looking for DWV outbreaks, general strength and growth of colony, winter survival and mite counts below treatment thresholds.

There are many other treatment-free beeks on this forum that could offer more wisdom than I.


----------



## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

I've only used "soft" treatments to date. I also did a fair amount of drone brood culling this spring, as well as made splits to induce broodless periods. Most hives do appear to be handling the mite level well enough in that I haven't seen signs of DWV or any other alarming problems. What I am seeing in the worst hives are low brood and very shotty brood pattern, along with the bees seeming listless compared to earlier in the year. These probably need re-queened anyway, and I am in the middle of rearing some queens, but they won't be ready for a few more weeks. Anyone have some TF queens handy? 

Regarding treatment thresholds (I know, TF forum heresy): If a hive has high mite levels but continues on in a healthy manner to no ill effect, is that a win? Is it tunnel vision trying to get the low mite counts? Are mites a red herring and the real problem is disease vectoring? If my bees have resistance to vectored diseases, that could be an end around the problem. As I have noted, despite the high mite load, some of these hives look to be doing just fine, and I am starting to propagate those. If they continue to show disease resistance even without mite resistance, I arrive at the same goal: keeping bees without chemical (or acidic) treatments. Wishful thinking?


----------



## btt221 (Apr 7, 2016)

herbhome said:


> "....
> 
> Even in the best of possible worlds I doubt that a treatment-free colony would be mite-free.
> 
> ..."


The above is key. Naturally kept bees will have mites. Yet these same bees will be able to handle (on their own) the mite load and persist successfully.

By treating them you have shortchanged their DNA code (the code that would have been activated to handle the mite problem.

Treating the bees cripples them in a similar way as welfare cripples people who receive it by taking away their drive to work.

In short thinking too much and doing too much results in treating bees too much.

If you have not "touched" some of your other colonies you may still have some good bees.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Beebeard said:


> If a hive has high mite levels but continues on in a healthy manner to no ill effect, is that a win? Is it tunnel vision trying to get the low mite counts?... Wishful thinking?



Thank you for a very thorough introduction of your work. You wrote that your hives have got 4 OAV treatments last summer and one in broodless wintertime and despite these very effective treatments they have mite counts from 6 to 28 /300 bees. I would say your bees are not special in any way. I would follow the advise of FusionPower: get tested treatment free stock from a breeder with good reputation (BeeWeawer, Adam Finkelstein and others).

Your five year experience and work with swarms and cutouts combined with the alcohol wash tests of all 20 hives is indeed very interesting and exceptional in this forum. It may save many beekeepers a lot of work, if they just are ready to admit their wishfull thinking.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

btt221 said:


> Naturally kept bees will have mites. Yet these same bees will be able to handle (on their own) the mite load and persist successfully.
> 
> By treating them you have shortchanged their DNA code (the code that would have been activated to handle the mite problem.By treating them you have shortchanged their DNA code (the code that would have been activated to handle the mite problem.





> If you have not "touched" some of your other colonies you may still have some good bees


Comments like this remaining unchallenged are damaging to the TF cause. This type of thinking leads to the death of untold numbers of packages under the "care" of new TF keepers while they sit and wait for their puppy mill genetics to some how become TF bees.

It doesn't matter how you "keep" your bees, treating or with holding treatments dose not change the genetics of a hive, changing queen stock does.

FP's advice is sound, re queen from your best or best you can buy, give the new queens a clean slate to work

flip side is my "feral's" are just as advertised
Ill tempered, swarmey, unproductive. They got one blind shot of OAD in Nov. May rolls were 0 and 1s, June rolls were 2s-3s. But there isn't a hive that wasn't split, swarmed, or had the queen pulled to let them raize there own for swarm control+ some drone culling.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Treating the bees cripples them in a similar way as welfare cripples people who receive it by taking away their drive to work.


 Propaganda and prejudice.



> In short thinking too much and doing too much results in treating bees too much.


Too much treating normally is the result of treating to late because of inexperience. No one treats too much because the costs are too high.



> If you have not "touched" some of your other colonies you may still have some good bees.


Don´t claim such things. You don´t know.



> The above is key. Naturally kept bees will have mites. Yet these same bees will be able to handle (on their own) the mite load and persist successfully.


The survivors will if there are any. This needs years and could change with mite or virus infestation from outside. Could be that losses are 100%. This is going hard bond and you must tell people what the consequences of this can be.



> By treating them you have shortchanged their DNA code (the code that would have been activated to handle the mite problem.


What?


----------



## Arbol (Apr 28, 2017)

btt221 said:


> The above is key. Naturally kept bees will have mites. Yet these same bees will be able to handle (on their own) the mite load and persist successfully.
> 
> By treating them you have shortchanged their DNA code (the code that would have been activated to handle the mite problem.
> 
> ...





someone has no clue what so ever.

changed the dna, thanks for the funny!!!


----------



## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Interesting video. It may have legs with why TF works in pockets and not so much on a broad scale.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUFDXl8VGvs


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Arbol said:


> someone has no clue what so ever.
> 
> changed the dna,


Maybe he meant this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere

Great link, dtrooster.
Everybody has this hope to make the bees immune by not using chemicals and multiply the best.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's not about mite counts. Are they healthy? Productive? Gentle?


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

It is about mite counts. What is the mite count when your bees will no longer be healthy, productive, and gentle? When that number is about to be reached is the time to act, if you don't, your colony will be damaged or lost. If you never do counts, you don't know when to act.


----------



## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

I wasn't giving much credence to the idea of a treatment changing the genetics of the hive, and anyway, if they had the appropriate gene that would activate during high mite loads(??) I think that would have shown up by now. I'm not going to let a productive hive die a horrible death and risk further disease spread while I stand back and say "They got this" Clearly, they don't. I've got 2 hives with lower mite counts and good temperament and productivity. I am currently raising a round of queens from these, which I will use to replace the worst ones. I will buy some TF queens and use them for breeding and drone production for next season. I learned about drone culling methods this season and will apply what I have learned next season to boost the drones from the good hives, and cull the drones from the less good. In all this, I need to make sure I'm keeping healthy and productive hives that will pay for themselves and my time. With some of the hives having high mite loads yet remaining healthy and vigorous, I will be keeping close tabs on the situation to continue selecting good lines. For me TF is a goal and a journey. I'm just starting that journey this season.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

That sounds like a strong plan. 
MB make a point on resistance vs tolerance
My take is with the contuned spread of dezieses going after the vector seems a good path for the long turm.... DWV 4 is surely just around the corner, Moku virus is in HI islands, the and prospect of a Ss1 explosion here in the states (1st know mite vectored bacterium) mean a shift in the dezieses in you area, which are just one or 2 years after landing in almonds for many, and all your hard work could be wiped out if the vectors rename strong. You cant breed tolerance for something you don't have yet.


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

msl; What does Ss1 stand for?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"And now I have another terrible confession to make. Not one as bad and un-American as passing up short-term gain and investing in the future—but still horrible: I have never yet counted even a single sample of mites from any of my bees. I consider counting mites as a way of evaluating Varroa resistance to be fraught with all sorts of shortcomings and difficulties. It's very time consuming and hence the size of the apiary, the number of colonies tested, the gene pool, and the income available all start to shrink. It's also very easy for the results to be skewed by mites migrating from other colonies or bee yards. And it doesn't show which colonies are more resistant to secondary infections--a trait I consider very important."--Kirk Webster, ABJ April 2005, pg 314

"...when 150 queens were introduced into nucs with brood untreated for 18 months. This brood had a normal outward appearance when the nucs were made up, but four weeks later about half of them were starting to decline with PMS-type symptoms. But after another three weeks, almost all of these colonies appeared normal and healthy again."—Kirk Webster

"I’ve thought a lot about how in the world to describe what’s really happening in an apiary that hasn’t used treatments of any kind for more than five years; where mites are now considered to be indispensable allies and friends, and where the productivity, resilience, profitability and enjoyment of the apiary are just as good as at any time in the past. *I wouldn’t dream of killing any mites now, even if I had an easy and safe way of doing so.*"--Kirk Webster, A New Paradigm for American Beekeeping (emphasis mine)


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Why don´t you, who use ferals and support your bee yards with swarms out of ferals, are more or less isolated and have resistant drones around, and purchase stock to fill the gaps not see that...

....there are some who are not as privileged as must find another way?

If Kirk Webster ( whom I respect very much) says to not kill any mites how are we to have local stock still if 100% die without treatments, because all local bees are weak and we have no ferals?

We have to find another way.

And we do! We need another approach to this except the bond methods. A plan like beebeard has.

How can we use local stock if those do not survive one season tf, drones of these flooding the area?

My friend even kept tf and treated colonies for 4 years in his apiary. Why did the tf survive?
Because he culled the drones of his treated hives, he fed the tf with honey from the treated hives, he multiplied from the strongest and he introduced better stock. I don´t want to claim the small cells did it but he is convinced of that too.

Now he feels free to go completely tf after his education ( he is a seasoned beekeeper, I mean his tf education). And I will follow in his footsteps.

He never counted mites, by the way. He observes the virus and the VSH behavior. He breeds from the strongest. loss is 30%.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

AR its S. marcescens strain sicaria and its associated with winter kill in the mid west, there is rumors (with out any study I am aware of) that SS1 may have been involved in the large winter kill in the north east this winter 
article (cliff notes) http://www.uwstout.edu/news/article...entify-bacterium-that-may-kill-honey-bees.cfm
study http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0167752

MB With out trying to be rude as I have much respect for the man, how are Kirk's bees right now, word has been he got wiped out 
My take is resistance to secondary infections at high mite loads means nothing when a new one that your bees have no resistance to shows up, and you have a apiary full of vectors that can set you back to square one 
Now if most of us were isolated, and some new pathogen wasn't a trip or 2 to the almonds and at our doorstep (be that a commercial near us or arriving to newbeeks in packages) it would be a different story. 
I can't select for resistance to whats coming next, but I can select to limit its ability to spread and load levels, and as studys are showing us with DWV its not just having the virus, but the load levels, driven by the vector, that impact the bees. 
He does make a valid point that mite levels can be inexact


> It's also very easy for the results to be skewed by mites migrating from other colonies or bee yards


 but if we take that as a whole, it show just how easy it is for new pathogens to get in. 
I am suspicious the cycle of crash and recovery in TF yards may be more about different pathogens rotating in then the mites them self.

To SiWolKee's point we all live in different places witch often means we take a different road even if we are going to the same destination. Ie I can tell SiWolKee the route I drove my car to CA to see the almond groves, but that does her no good as she needs an airplane or a boat.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

msl said:


> I am suspicious the cycle of crash and recovery in TF yards may be more about different pathogens rotating in then the mites them self.


So far I have observed bees ( from my co-workers) surviving the bond method here in the environmental situation described above, when they are allowed to swarm and kept as small colonies.
This could be an option for small hobbyists, because harvest is just enough to sustain a small family,but they need feeding with sugar syrup sometimes.

Back to topic, some of my acquaintances used AMM of different locations in europe, rebred, thinking them more resistant, but they are not.
They are defensive and not easy to work so beeks change to more gentler stock.
Living crowded you can´t use them in your garden.

And what is the future for the honeybee if people start to fear them or they are just pets? 
They have to be important to agriculture and food providing to be supported.

Talking about the honeybees and selling honey in small amounts to the local families is also a help to wild bees because it opened the minds to the bee situation in itself.
Wild bees are going extinct here if not something happens. Pollination needs them though.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>...how are Kirk's bees right now, word has been he got wiped out 

I don't know. I'm not in constant contact with Kirk. I've heard the same unfounded rumor about me several times and it wasn't true, so I have no reason to believe or not believe rumors.  Reality is a lot of people who treat have been wiped out in the past as well... And of course there were never any losses of bees before Varroa mites...  What I have noticed is if you are a vocal non-treatment beekeeper and you ever mention ANY losses for any cause, it rapidly gets transformed by creative math and repetition into rumors of major losses from Varroa over a short period of time.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> What I have noticed is if you are a vocal non-treatment beekeeper and you ever mention ANY losses for any cause, it rapidly gets transformed by creative math and repetition into rumors of major losses from Varroa


As is the converse....vocal tf beekeepers insisting that over the decades they've NEVER lost a hive to mites. A pot and kettle situation.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

To put this discussion under context, all bees are on a bell curve. 

A veteran beekeeper in our area recently said to me that about 10 percent of bought queens are duds, about 30 percent are great, and the rest are just ok. I think its up to local keepers to make some queens from the best.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

lharder said:


> To put this discussion under context, all bees are on a bell curve.
> 
> A veteran beekeeper in our area recently said to me that about 10 percent of bought queens are duds, about 30 percent are great, and the rest are just ok.


This is absolutely correct; and if understood, why backyard hives will *never* produce sustainable premium queens.

In an operation that can test and select from 1000 colonies, the breeder can select bees on 99th percentile (or >3 standard deviations), the breeder can isolate the 99th percentile in a breeding yard with 99th percentile drones. This yield (on average) much improved stock.

The backyard keeper with 10 hives will (on average) see the "best" bee at one standard deviation. Without context, the backyard keeper deludes himself in thinking he has a "wonder" bee, but which in truth is only so-so as demonstrated by the cruel laws of distribution around the mean. 

The backyard keeper then breeds out of his so-so bee with the drones from all the hives (of which 50% are below average). Even if the backyard keeps "wins" the genetic lottery and sees a breeder queen at the 90% percentile (1 in 10), the queens offspring will *on average* represent something below the 70th percentile. (0.5*(0.9 + 0.5)) In other words the "wonder" queen will have moved half-way back to the mean in one generation.

The response to mites is not linear and an apiary average at 70% does you no good for mite management.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How does one get the mites under control so the bees can catch up? 

I've confined the laying queens that the seller claimed to be mite resistant on the pollen frame. Then took out all the cap broods. Then sent the nuc hive with the cap broods into an open field under a big tree. The remaining hives I put in empty drawn frames for the queens to lay. After 1.5 months of no broods (on a long term brood break) the first cap brood frame is full of the adult mites from the 3 condensed deep boxes into one. Then I took out 2 frames of the cap broods into my homemade small fridge incubator at 90.6F. 
After the bees emerged I clean the mites off them and put the young bees back into the hive that have less bees. This is my initial step of cleaning the mites to give the hives a brand new start. If no resistant sign shown in 2-3 months then these are no good queens without any resistant build in. So the seller had lied to me! I'm waiting for this process to complete to see my final result. This way there are less mites to interfere with the bees so they can catch up a bit. No broods with lots of mites to start!
In your situation I would graft from the hives that have the most hygienic and resistant traits. Then use these queens to requeen your unfavorable, no resistant hives. Finding the resistant hive is harder to do now. At least you have identified the most resistant hives of them all. Can you duplicate this process?
https://youtu.be/JqTnu-Hy6LE



Clean out bees back to hive:


----------



## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

JWChesnut said:


> This is absolutely correct; and if understood, why backyard hives will *never* produce sustainable premium queens.
> 
> In an operation that can test and select from 1000 colonies, the breeder can select bees on 99th percentile (or >3 standard deviations), the breeder can isolate the 99th percentile in a breeding yard with 99th percentile drones. This yield (on average) much improved stock.
> 
> ...


Excellent synopsis of the math. Backyarders should keep this in mind. Gains are slow and easily lost. On the other hand, in raw numbers there are as many backyard hives as professionally managed hives in the US. As likely for a positive genetic combo in one as the other. Evolution still works, even if it is slower/chancier than breeding. If the big breeders really are producing markedly superior queens, those genetics will spread through the backyard population too.

In terms of mite resistance, the entire bee population in the US, Canada and Mexico is under tremendous pressure. The worst losers are already dead and gone, genes out of the population. What remains is the survivors, for whatever reasons. Even treated hives die from mites often enough, and sometimes untreated hives prosper, for a while anyway. Eventually an equilibrium will be reached.

No sign that there is any reduction in numbers of wild Africanized colonies in Mexico/Texas. Not my ideal bee, but they are surviving.


----------



## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

JW, At what hive count then does it make sense to raise my own queens? I can't afford to spend $1000/yr requeening my 20 or so hives with those premium queens, and I'm not looking to expand much beyond my backyard, my schedule is full enough as it is. I'm hoping that bringing in a few "premium" queens every couple of years and expanding from those, I can move the needle enough that other management techniques will reduce the need for treatments. My yard is not operating in a vacuum so I know I will have to rely on those with thousands of colonies to provide the occasional genetic boost. But in the meantime, I'd like to make my own queens because it is easy, less expensive, and enjoyable. Also, I realize that the surrounding genetic landscape will be pulling them down, but will the good lines not be pulling them up to some extent? In terms of many generations of exposure, anyway.

I should have several queens "grafted" from the best hive by the end of july/ first of august, and I'm splitting the second best. I did the cut comb method of making cells and it is going well, I got 6 good ripe capped cells in the breeder nucs now. There were actually more cells built, but they built them too close together and they were fused to the point where I just left them that way and treated 2 QC as one.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> On the other hand, in raw numbers there are as many backyard hives as professionally managed hives in the US.


instering, do you have a sorce for that? highest I have seen is 1/3 the hives are managed by BYBK, and that was from monsanto

It makes sense to raize your own queens at any level, unless your doing it primary for money and those prime queen mean they will pay you back


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is good only if the good drones mated with the good line queens. If not then they don't stand a chance of
passing the good genes around or keeping it until next season. With the world of open mating noting is certain
for sure. The local DCAs might be saturated with foreign drones not belonging to the lines that you have. They might
be from other bees not within the vicinity of your apiary. So take a chance and see what you have next year if they
make it over this winter.


----------



## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

msl said:


> instering, do you have a sorce for that? highest I have seen is 1/3 the hives are managed by BYBK, and that was from monsanto


Sorry, shooting from the hip. I don't have a source. But 1/3 or 1/2 makes little difference to the point. I doubt there is a good count on backyard bees. I have three right now, and not registered with the state.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Since we have restrictions to medicaments and most beekeepers use drone culling, acids and essential oils we can use the spring managements of other beekeepers to make our splits with our own drones mostly around.
In late may the others start again to let the bees have drones, but sometimes they cull these too because they think them worthless.

If we use our best hive ( or hives) to breed drones and cull or worst we have the best situation in april or may.

It was only my wishful thinking first, but having another race in one of my beeyards which is distinguishable by color, I see that the new queens mate with my own drones mostly there.
This I will use for future breeding, shifting the queens in my other bee yard, which is not so lucky, being less isolated.
Could be that I give up the other location because flow is better in the other too.

But my experience is limited still. I´m in for learning by doing.
What I will not accept is that it´s not possible. In that I do not care about commercial opinions. Bees surviving tf and bringing a small surplus of honey is enough for me.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You don't have to give up on other good drones location on queen rearing days. Just put the nuc hives with
the virgins in them for a few weeks in the location you want. After the queens got mated then you can
take the nucs back to your ideal out yards. This way the good genetics got mixed around a bit avoiding the
inbreeding situation later on. Doesn't matter if there is a flow on as long as these mating nucs got taken care of.
If the good genetics take hold then next season the honey harvest should increase in a good location.


----------



## CLSranch (May 15, 2017)

I'm trying to get started beekeeping with only feral hives. As mentioned earlier in this thread not all are fortunate enough to have feral bee's as basically the only source of bee's around me until I start. But I've watched several beginner courses online, Michael Bush, Palmer, etc... I like some more than others and know what works for other may not work for me the same. BUT I do think others could be in my shape as starting with someone's tf or feral bee's and watching or going to beginner courses reading on this site AND most everybody says oh my gosh you can't go tf if you do your an idiot, oh my you don't do mite counts then you have no idea what your doing or anything about b keep. The last part I DID read on this site yesterday. Toward someone who had kept bee's for years.
I guess I'm just saying maybe a suggestion on how they can or IF they can before concluding I/they have no idea about anything. I'm going to try tf.


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

beepro said:


> How does one get the mites under control so the bees can catch up?
> 
> I've confined the laying queens that the seller claimed to be mite resistant on the pollen frame. Then took out all the cap broods. Then sent the nuc hive with the cap broods into an open field under a big tree. The remaining hives I put in empty drawn frames for the queens to lay. After 1.5 months of no broods (on a long term brood break) the first cap brood frame is full of the adult mites from the 3 condensed deep boxes into one. Then I took out 2 frames of the cap broods into my homemade small fridge incubator at 90.6F.
> After the bees emerged I clean the mites off them and put the young bees back into the hive that have less bees. This is my initial step of cleaning the mites to give the hives a brand new start. If no resistant sign shown in 2-3 months then these are no good queens without any resistant build in. So the seller had lied to me! I'm waiting for this process to complete to see my final result. This way there are less mites to interfere with the bees so they can catch up a bit. No broods with lots of mites to start!
> ...


what, they're not very resistant.... shocker


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

welcome aboard cls. my bees and the success i enjoy with them all started with the foresight a beekeeper had 20 years ago to collect feral survivors. best of luck to you, and please keep us posted with your experience.


----------



## CLSranch (May 15, 2017)

Thank you squarepeg. I tried to catch a swarm out of my back yard (as mentioned). Also finding them is what made me want to start. When they swarmed they didn't go for my traps. But I did recently come across another hive in an empty house that I can here humming from 10+ft away. It should be perfect for getting a swarm from next year.


----------



## btt221 (Apr 7, 2016)

CLSranch said:


> I'm trying to get started beekeeping with only feral hives. As mentioned ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The harvest from this thread is bountiful. We have found a gold nugget in the form of a brave soon to be natural bee keeper. Congratulations!

Trapping bees is like hunting bees. Both pursuits require learning of the prey you are seeking. Hunting-trapping of bees can be done anywhere including central Europe. If domestic bees have swarmed then by definition they are now feral. If you happen to catch these feral bees then it is best not to "touch" them; you may indeed have good bees.

Time is on your side. Be patient. Nature is all around.


----------



## CLSranch (May 15, 2017)

Thanks again btt221. The ones in my back yard where there last year and I think the winter before as well. I know the house owners (of the newly found hive) said there had been bee's in there before and they had someone remove them. When I asked if could put up traps. Also like I said I don't know of any beekeepers (not to say there isn't) in 25 mls.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> If domestic bees have swarmed then by definition they are now feral. If you happen to catch these feral bees then it is best not to "touch" them; you may indeed have good bees.


 no
There is not reason to see a domestic swarm as anything but free bees. 
We are looking for the descendants of survivors that repordused and repopulated an area after mites caused a mass die off. 
Domestic bees, it would seem like most domestic animals don't last long in the wild with human intervention
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...fference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/
part 4 and 6 would be a worthy read for you as well...
you could also look at seelys work showing the feral pop being unaffected by commercial gentinits in close proximity


----------



## btt221 (Apr 7, 2016)

msl said:


> no
> There is not reason to see a domestic swarm as anything but free bees.
> We are looking for the descendants of survivors that repordused and repopulated an area after mites caused a mass die off.
> Domestic bees, it would seem like most domestic animals don't last long in the wild with human intervention
> ...


I fear going to the link you posted above because it may be nothing more than fake science; you have already mentioned your affiliation to Monsanto.

Before there was fake news there was junk science. Now I would simple call it fake science. Yes.


----------



## CLSranch (May 15, 2017)

msl said:


> no
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...fference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/
> part 4 and 6 would be a worthy read for you as well...
> you could also look at seelys work showing the feral pop being unaffected by commercial gentinits in close proximity


 Neat. I'm going to have finish reading it tomorrow.


----------



## btt221 (Apr 7, 2016)

CLSranch said:


> Neat. I'm going to have finish reading it tomorrow.


I will pass. I did say you were brave.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

btt221 on the subject of Feral genetics, I pointed you towards two well known, well published, and well regarded TF advocates/researchers . 
my quip about Monsanto was meant as a warning to take the data with a grain of salt as it was over blown, AR1 shot from the hip, and greatly missed, if the BYBK were any were near the same volume of hives as commercial, and we know 60% of BYBK are TF the geneticist of the bees, and number of TF stock options would be very different then they are now 

I apreachate you enthusiasm, but your posts in this thread show what I feel as a lack of understand of the problem at hand, the players in the game, or realy the basics or a willingness to learn. Some of what your saying sounds like the copper wire or magnet treatemnts out there 
please take that as observation, not a value statement. 
you are safe here
for a bit of Emerson, please read this to your self and take a long breath


> Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.


I love to hear Sam Comfort talk about his journey, suck up the information Michael Palmer puts out on nucs.... But fourms, my favorite is Michael Bush, not because I agree with everything he says ( I don't, only most...lol) but because the poise and grace with how he handles being challenged (and I have done my share) or in a lot cases out right attacked (witch I hope I have not).


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Yes, my hope was to follow MB too ( in beekeeping and being dignified) but first I have to create ferals ( and stop being a hothead .

And let me thank Fusion_power here for being there for me whenever I have a question, especially to the use of dadant.

Topic:
Means, some bees have to survive in my yards until it´s a higher percentage of stock.
Diversity is not a problem. Flow and mite input from surrounding beekeepers is.



> Domesticated bees, by various mechanisms, may revert to a hybrid wild type that may be more genetically diverse and exhibit greater environmental fitness than the original parent races.


I will need more years than those starting with ferals ( I have watched a person catching a "feral" swarm and observing that the queen was marked :roll eyes, but that´s so.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

msl


> There is not reason to see a domestic swarm as anything but free bees.


I skimmed over randy's link that you posted. To me it seems he is saying that the first time a domestic swarm produces a queen and the drone breeding stock is not controlled, The ferals have more influince on the new queen than the domestic bees that you caught. This is at odds from all the guys taking the position that a back yard guy will never be the answer to finding the super bee that is repeated every time this subject comes up. He goes furthure to say that maby the queen breeders would do good to look at those small back yard spots for stock to help them get where they want to go. So by my reading, the excaped swarm if it was a secondary swarm with a virgin queen may add up to more then just bees. Of course some of this depends on location and what is around you.

I look at some of this stuff like I look at the bible where lots of people can see the same words but still come up with differrent conclusions because they read it with the out look and predjudices that all other things they have gained through the living of life.

It looked to me like randy was saying that excaped swarms do survive because of envioromental pressures affecting which gene influince come to the forefront in the second generation.

Most of this stuff is way over my head and I am defanatly not going to do well making sense out of most charts and graphs.

I do think it is very hard to write things in a way that are clear enough that everyone can come to the same conclution by reading it plus most pick the part that is most important to them and sometimes lose the context that it was in. I say this more about me then you. On the other side of this is that picking one one part out of the whole, if that one part is still true, gives something to consintrate and expand opon.

Cheers
gww


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

JWChesnut said:


> This is absolutely correct; and if understood, why backyard hives will *never* produce sustainable premium queens.
> 
> In an operation that can test and select from 1000 colonies, the breeder can select bees on 99th percentile (or >3 standard deviations), the breeder can isolate the 99th percentile in a breeding yard with 99th percentile drones. This yield (on average) much improved stock.
> 
> ...


My friend was actually commenting on so called premium queens. I have to say that I am overall happier with my own queens than those supplied. I would say that my locally produced bees are more vigorous than those of imported queens. My take is that I don't expect performance from an imported queen, only an infusion of new genetics that the local population can work with. 

At any rate, its not about a single backyard keeper, but selection with many back yard keepers. 1000 keepers with 10 hives gives a 10,000 hive baseline to choose from. It also preserves new local mutations that may be beneficial, enhancing genetic diversity over a continent over time, and allowing for locally adapted subtypes to emerge. That cannot happen with centralized breeding. This would add to resiliency. 

It would be a different selection dynamic, but much more powerful in the long run.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

As usaly GWW you are asking the right questions



> because of envioromental pressures affecting which gene influince come to the forefront in the second generation.


The environmental pressure is death of poor genintinics. Its not incoming feral gentinics diluting the commercial ones, otherwise we would expect the reverce given the high volume of managed stock swarms, and studys are showing that not what is happening.. The most common managed commercial stock is the Yellow Italian bee, but traices of there genetics only show up in 4% of the ferals. They are not bread out, they die out



> This is at odds from all the guys taking the position that a back yard guy will never be the answer to finding the super bee that is repeated every time this subject comes up.


Not at odds at all, they may find the “super bee”, but unless the background population is super bees they won’t beable to maintain the line . And a super bee is not something nature is going to select for as many of the traits we want as humans are at odds with natural survival. 

For me I am banking on this, every line in my denver yard has come from within flight range of the yard. They are scrappy, unproductive and possabuily restiance, I am trying open mate with the rest of thier population in a hope of keeping as they are, not to improve them. 

To my neabor on the other hand, who just restarted with 20 packages, it’s a different story… his hives have 3 supers on them, mine that I stated with nucs and cells have none… He will likely see the “performance” of his hives decline as subsequent generations open mate


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

msl said:


> They (My feral bees) are scrappy, unproductive and possabuily restiance, I am trying open mate with the rest of thier population in a hope of keeping as they are, not to improve them.
> 
> To my neabor on the other hand, who just restarted with 20 packages, it’s a different story… his hives have 3 supers on them, mine that I stated with nucs and cells have none…


I see this again and again. The cult of feral survivor bees lavishes importance on "mutts" -- and those bees are poor choices for domestic apiaries. 

Small, swarmy colonies with poor thriftiness, but extreme aggression. Locally, they cast autumn "suicide swarms" and blink out overwinter.

Unfortunately, there is a constant recruitment of young beekeepers climbing on their soap boxes with fevered dreams of 1000 beekeepers with 10 colonies each transforming beekeeping in a generation. I don't see it.


----------



## CLSranch (May 15, 2017)

The "aggressive" feral hive in my back yard 15' from the back door hasn't stung me yet in 2 years. I found another feral swarm a few days ago in a house. I leaned on the wall 2' from their entrance to lean over and watch them and have done so every day since. Mean little boogers.


----------



## CLSranch (May 15, 2017)




----------



## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

I started this thread to share the challenges I'm finding with feral stock. 20 hives, and never a purchased bee in them, only cutouts and swarm catches. 8 of my hives that came through the winter are cutouts that had been in place 5+ years. I've done another dozen cutouts this year. I have yet to find high mite resistance in any of them. Some of the hives have been too aggressive to have in my yard, and I requeened those this summer (still had high mite counts besides). Some of them have been swarmy (caught a swarm on april 5th, swarm cells on april 20th, split. swarm cells in both splits on may 15th, split again. Swarm cells in 2 of the splits in June, other 2 didn't make new queens, split again,...saga continues). Some of them have been great producers, filling 3 supers this year. I'm seeing some hives overwinter with huge populations, some dwindle to nothing in the winter only to explode when the flow starts in the spring. Different colors all around as well. It's been great fun learning each hive's "personality" and management needs.

I wanted these feral bees to be those "miracle survivors" that keep the mites at bay. They are not. They have survived somehow, but not by keeping the mites in check. Alcohol washes have shown this. 

Admittedly, I'm just a backyard hobbyist, bordering on sideliner. I want to get my hives to the point I can manage for mites without resorting to acid treatments. I need these bees to be calm enough my family and neighbors won't complain, and productive enough to support me financially. 

There has been some great discussion here, and I appreciate the advice and am learning from it, as I hope others are as well. There is also some wading off into the weeds a bit. To bring it back around, those of you who have experience in a situation such as mine, am I going about this in the right way: 20-30ish hives max, sourcing survivor hives, mixing in some TF queen genetics, breeding from my best and brightest, soft treating susceptible but otherwise suitable hives then rotating those queens out with the hopefully better queens over the next several seasons. Is this a reasonable path to TF? Are there other points to consider?


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

beebeard


> I wanted these feral bees to be those "miracle survivors" that keep the mites at bay. They are not. They have survived somehow, but not by keeping the mites in check. Alcohol washes have shown this.


I am just in the beginning of what you have advanced to. I guess my question to you would be what differrance does it make if they are mite resistant or mite tollerant. If they are not dieing then they are not dieing and so I am wondering what more you are looking for.

When you say soft treatments, are you saying powder sugar or are you saying olixic acid? If you are saying they are not treatment free because you have to do soft treatments to keep them alive, I could understand that though you would not know if they would have lived if you treated before they died.

I am not sure what your point is above and what improvements to what you are doing that you would like to get out of this thread. You did say your bees are somehow surviving. 

I am in the very beginning of just not really doing anything as far as mites go except when I make a split, making sure that there is some kind of brood break on one side.

I am interested in you experiances and the parts you like and the parts you don't like cause I am sure I am headed to repeating your experiance.

My first goal is just to see if they live or die with no treatment and learning what that looks like. Then I may rethink what I really want.

I would say that your bees somehow living is the first part of the battle, What is next?
Cheers
gww

Ps I am with you on the swarmyness though I am not sure it is not just me. I have been lucky (knock on wood) so far not to experiance agressiveness thank goodness. I do have lots of colors. I have been very lucky on queen making it back from mating this year.


----------



## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

GWW, sorry if my post was a bit of stream of consciousness. There is a lot going on in this thread and gets my head a spinnin. To help clarify: To date I have only done OAV treatments on any of my hives, save for 2 hives that got MAQS about a month ago. I guess I'm fuzzy on whether OAV is considered "soft" or not. I don't, nor plan on, using powdered sugar, and will not use synthetics.

To date, my bees have survived with high mite loads, yes. This would be an example of tolerance of either the mite vector, or of mite-induced diseases. However, I'm now seeing signs of serious weakness in the ones with the highest mite loads and have started seeing some bees with DW. So I am commencing with treating to preserve what I have and avoid disease spread. Now, I will not know if they would have pulled through without a knock back of the mites, but my experience as a beekeeper tells me they would not. I'd rather not know than look at a deadout.

I'd like to learn whether it is more important for the bees to keep a low mite load, or to be tolerant of a high mite load. Either scenario leads me to what I want, which is productive hives managed without treating for mites with any foreign substance. There are some posts here regarding disease vectoring and emerging diseases that will be vectored by the mites. In that instance, having bees that maintain a low mite count sounds like the better way to go, and I had not considered that before.

I'm also hoping to share my experiences to help others on their path. For quite some time I've heard on this forum and elsewhere that feral survivors were the way to go, that they should be able to handle mites as they have obviously done so on their own. Those are the bees that I have acquired, and I'm not finding the expected resistance. I suspect that a hive's survival with the mites is dependent on far more factors than we even know about, and having moved these bees from houses and trees into standard equipment may have upset some important balance. I don't know. But I hope to learn, or to lead others to discovery.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> They have survived somehow, but not by keeping the mites in check. Alcohol washes have shown this.





> To date, my bees have survived with high mite loads, yes.


I am not so sure that it true, The mite action thresholds treaters use is going to be very different then someone with TF goles
Many TF breading programs have been started using a 10% infestation in mid summer as the cut off (AGT's threshold is 10% july 1st)... more than that and the stock is dropped from the breeding program, after a few years they lower the threshold 


> My lowest count hive which was a nuc split from earlier this year that has now filled a deep and a medium came in at 6. Most of them were in the mid-double digits, with one large production hive coming in at 28.


If I read you right ALL of your stock is under that 10% threshold, I would say they are showing resistance and or the splitting is holding back the mites.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good thread, thanks for starting it beebeard.

cincinnati is a big place and the area is mostly developed from what i can see on google map.

if you happen to be on the outskirts, and especially to the south of the city, the terrain appears to have enough wooded areas to support ferals. i would concentrate my efforts at collecting new stock from those areas.

in the end, you will be at the mercy of whatever other colonies are within a few miles of your bee yards with respect to subsequent generations of queens getting mated with the local drones.

you may want to consider influencing the drone side of the equation by having plenty of drone comb in your hives. you can take it one step further by culling drones from the lesser performing colonies and pushing drones from your better ones.

fusion_power purposely allowed his first mite resistant colonies to swarm for a few seasons in an attempt to 'seed' the neighborhood with those genetics. it appears to have worked for him, but this might not be an option for you if you live in a mostly residential area.

thanks again for sharing your experience here. i look forward to hearing about how things progress for you.


----------



## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Here is my take on how to breed ferals. This is based on Seeley's research on feral traits (How Honey Bee Colonies Survive in the Wild: Testing the Importance of Small Nests and Frequent Swarming, in a nutshell, swarmy, thrifty, not mite tolerant in a honey production setting), and Randy Oliver's approach to minimizing unknown drones from playing a role in producing his queens. See his American Bee Journal series - The varroa Problem part 4. 

Some background... I have 3 grandaughters of a feral I caught in 2015, and now 3 from new stock (minnesota hygenic + her 2 open-mated daughters). I don't have the 2015 feral queen or the 2016 queen. This spring, 1 of the 2 queens from 2016 died from mites, and the other was at 15%. I treated with OAV, and counts have stayed low on all the splits. Temperament wise, one daughter is a medium-hot (consistent head-butting, will have 1 or 2 chase me if I return later on to the apiary, but not covering gloves or face plate), the others are smaller and so not yet at full guard bee strength. Minn Hygenic and her daughters are all fairly calm but not so calm to let yellowjackets or robbers in (I hope). 

First thing, I am keen to find out what ferals are within foraging distance. There were likely 3 hives in the fall, but in spring there was 1. When I beeline, I go downwind of my house (bees like to go upwind as a first choice, or along the wind), and I use old comb with some 1:1 sugar syrup and anise extract (tiny amount). I've put the comb (it was in a frame) in a box and the bees came in less than an hour. It was March. And I tried upwind, 1/4 mile away. Did not get my own bees, curiously enough. No other bees either. There were some coming from that way last year. I will start beelining around here in earnest when the dearth starts. I see no other hive bodies around the neighborhood.... I've been looking too!

Second, I am planning on surrounding my home apiary with 4 out-apiaries with queens who I want to provide drones. That's in the 3 year plan.  I want to actually improve my stock, and not have it swamped by anything in the neighborhood. There will be some good traits for survival there, but I want to promote great traits. If I don't flood the area with my preferred drones, I will continue to get the same stock when the queens mate - survivor, but no improvement in mite tolerance over previous years in a honey production setting. 

To be clear, I am looking for mite-tolerant (and virus tolerant) survivor bees who can make some honey without babying. Or maybe I am breeding for bee-tolerant mites and benign bee viruses.  I'm looking for mite counts that don't rise catastrophically in the fall. And I'm looking for nice enough temperament. I wear a veil, and I'm ok wearing gloves, so I don't expect complete calm from a hive with guard bees during an inspection, but I won't tolerate being chased if I get within 50 feet on a walk around the apiary on another day. We'll see how it goes....


----------



## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

msl: I had not heard of that 10% threshold before. I have been wondering about what mite thresholds should be. I expect they will be higher in a TF yard, but I suppose I need to learn just what my bees can take. As is often the case, I may come to regret my management decision (treating), but learning is as much about figuring out the wrong way too.

squarepeg: I'm on the north end of the metro area. Cincy has varied hilly terrain, and I'm very near to the glaciated boundary, so a short drive in any direction yields very different circumstances. In my bee's flight path it is almost all 1940-1960's suburbs. nice enough that people take care of things, not so nice they are spraying their lawns all the time, so lots of clover. I have an interstate about a half mile away that is lined thickly with black locust. There is quite a large amount of weedy berm as well so I get good goldenrod. I have a small creek on the property as well. all in all, I'm in a great spot for bees, and I get what I think is really good production.

I have another beekeeper in my neighborhood who is TF and gets his bees from splits and swarms too. To be fair, he's in his 80's, and I suspect his management goes about as far as stacking on the supers in the spring, taking them in the summer, and replacing his deadouts the next year with more swarms. He does not seem to have good winter survival, i'd say he's loosing 50% or more in talking to him. Probably not helping things for me with mite drift, but I don't know. Good guy, was my mentor the first year. Taught me the basics.

I don't want to encourage swarming, being residential (and not exactly in compliance with zoning laws), But I'm doing the drone manipulations now, hopefully that will help. Thanks all, I will keep updating.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Beebeard


> GWW, sorry if my post was a bit of stream of consciousness. There is a lot going on in this thread and gets my head a spinnin.


Don't be sorry to me, I try not and judge how others are doing things but more just try and learn what they are doing. My head never stops spinning and so I only know one way to get more info and that is to ask. I may have no tact but do have good will and as long as you say what you are doing or have done and what you want to do, I will read it. I may be like the 5 year old and ask "Why?" alot while you post as I would like to learn as much from your situation as I can.

Cheers
gww


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> if you happen to be on the outskirts, and especially to the south of the city, the terrain appears to have enough wooded areas to support ferals. i would concentrate my efforts at collecting new stock from those areas.


I would suggest trying the reverse, feral denistys are higher in urban areas, studys have shown urban areas (Oswego NY) to have 2.7X more hives per km2 then the woods of Seeley's Arnot Forest forest 100 miles away https://www.researchgate.net/public...enoptera_Apidae_in_a_City_in_Upstate_New_York

I have had good luck in my urban setting, this year I set up on 2 trees about a km mile apart in this neighborhood https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6090943,-105.1185742,1445m/data=!3m1!1e3 and caught 5 swarms this year + had a swarm call 300m from one of the traps.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

msl said:


> If I read you right ALL of your stock is under that 10% threshold, I would say they are showing resistance and or the splitting is holding back the mites.


Beebeard has treated very well last year.
mites 6-28 /300 bees
Lowest score is in a splitt from this year which has been growing well. (low mite number in the beginning, a lot of the mites are in the brood right now) 

Put these facts together: there is absolutely nothing special in these bees. There will will be a terribly rocky road ahead.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

great response , what would you feel is a good mid summer mite roll for below non action threshold in your area? AKA this hive will overwinter and prosper next spring with out beekeeper intervention ?
I have asked for such numbers repeatably from TF people on this forum and have gotten little engagement,the published data is quite lacking as to were the cut off is between the Live/Die/Live and profit the beekeeper line is.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

msl said:


> , what would you feel is a good mid summer mite roll for below non action threshold in your area? AKA this hive will overwinter and prosper next spring with out beekeeper intervention ?
> I have asked for such numbers repeatably from TF people on this forum and have gotten little engagement, the published data is quite lacking


This is a pdf information notice from the Finnish Beekeepers Association

https://mehilaishoitajat-fi-bin.dir...ajankoht-punkkientorjunta-pölysokeritesti.pdf

It is, of course, for beekeepers who treat every year. An Beebeard has treatted last year, a yet has so many mites.

It says that if the sugar roll test is something between 0-4 mites /300 bees, normal August treatments are sufficient
if the result is more than 5 mites, specially effective August treatments are needed plus oxalic acid in winter in both cases.

Personally, not treating for 9 years, I would consider something over 10 alarming, something over 20 (haven´t seen such for many years) means high winter losses.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

why the deflections ?
I am not asking for where treat happens for treating keepers, I am asking for what the expected mite numbers of "treatment free" stock should be rolling for TF keepers at said time of the year in your area. As a respected producer of said stock(and I mean that 100%) You should easy beable t kick out your advrage July rolls for the past few years, especially in the face of you stating a hive rolling 6s is a dead man walking


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

msl said:


> why the deflections ?
> I am not asking for where treat happens for treating keepers, I am asking for what the expected mite numbers of "treatment free" stock should be rolling for TF keepers at said time of the year in your area. As a respected producer of said stock(and I mean that 100%) You should easy beable t kick out your advrage July rolls for the past few years, especially in the face of you stating a hive rolling 6s is a dead man walking


"why the deflections?", can you put it other words, I don´t understand.

To me Beebeard is like any other treating beekeeper, because he treated last year. This means the advise he needs is the one what applies to treating beekeepers. 

If he had some tested TF stock, then he could use the threshholds of TF beekeeping. But he hasn´t. 


You asked in my area. Well ok, I should have understood that that means me, because here are no others... 

My sugar roll figures: average somewhere 10, this year 4. Sometimes much lower numbers in autumn. Don´t ask how is that possible.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Personally, not treating for 9 years, I would consider something over 10 alarming, something over 20 (haven´t seen such for many years) means high winter losses.


(Don't know if I missed this or it was added later with the edit) Thank you, that's what I was asking for. 



> If he had some tested TF stock, then he could use the threshholds of TF beekeeping. But he hasn't.


He is trying to test with mite rolls (IPM instead of bond) to ID TF stock and limit his losses. He needs a TF threshold so he doesn't pull a line from the program too fast, If he uses a treating threshold ( economic threshold) he will just keep treating everything.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

msl said:


> He is trying to test with mite rolls (IPM instead of bond) to ID TF stock and limit his losses. He needs a TF threshold so he doesn't pull a line from the program too fast, If he uses a treating threshold ( economic threshold) he will just keep treating everything.


I started 2001 with proven more resistant stock (primorski from USA).

It is now 2017, and I´m not yet in the finish line.

Is Beebeard really prepared for such a long time or should he take the earlier advise of FusionPower (and me backing up) to take proven TF stock to start with?



If he is prepared to 16+ years work, expensive and unpayed, and wants to use a TF threshold, I would not have certain figures, but as a guess, maybe worth nothing, 15 (=5%). Above that, treat.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I don't think any one is saying don't buy better stock, but often we see the resistance lost when the stock is moved, he needs a way to know if they are doing well, just ok, or failing.

Beebeard I just got back from my denver yard, here are the numbers on the 3 full sized KTBHs I am tracking, everything elce is nucs/brood fatorys/cell builders, I am not running for honey this year 
These are 3 sister queens mated in July of last year and overwintered as nucs, one shot of OAD in November rolls done with 1/2 cup (300 bees) 
1 had the queen pulled and left to raize there own on 5/25 rolled 1, 6/26 no count(1st brood cycle was mostly capped at the time), 7/22 rolled 9
2 swarmed, 5/25 rolled 0, 6/26 rolled 2, 7/22 rolled 6 
3 was the queen right side of a fly away split in april , 5/25 it rolled 1, 6/26 rolled 1, 7/22 it rolled 3


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

msl said:


> I don't think any one is saying don't buy better stock, but often we see the resistance lost when the stock is moved, he needs a way to know if they are doing well, just ok, or failing.
> 
> Beebeard I just got back from my denver yard, here are the numbers on the 3 full sized KTBHs I am tracking, everything elce is nucs/brood fatorys/cell builders, I am not running for honey this year
> These are 3 sister queens mated in July of last year and overwintered as nucs, one shot of OAD in November rolls done with 1/2 cup (300 bees)
> ...


:thumbsup:

1,0,9,0,2,6,1,1,3
average 2,5
median 1

So looks like your beecstock is much more suitable for TF beekeeping.

So should mite figures look like after last years OAD.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

We will see what the late Aug numbers are, the dearth is here and I see a brood break starting, good for mite control, bad news for honey, I will be lucky to see 20# of surplus between the 3 
I do have concerns that the manipulations/swarming are effecting the results.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> I'd like to learn whether it is more important for the bees to keep a low mite load, or to be tolerant of a high mite load.


That´s exactly what I want to learn too. No answers yet.

Maybe both, depending on many factors ( enough bees to do hygienic behavior , seasonal development, brood brakes done.....)

I would rather have high mite counts and tolerance, because this means that the bees will probably be able to take a new infestation in the long run and are immune to virus

or have low counts by biting this means high counts on the boards.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

In my _opinion_, it is better the bees keep a low mite load. Two reasons. 1. Mites are not usually the killers, they are vectors of the killers. Viruses and other pathogens are constantly evolving and changing. Just like plagues, bird flues, and other human diseases that periodically sweep the world and kill people in some new form, it is the same with bee pathogens. A hive that can keep mites low should suffer less from new variants they are not used to, than a hive with high mite levels. 2. It is still my dream that a bee may be produced that will be able to eliminate mites completely. If we are happy with bees with high mite levels this goal is increasingly unlikely.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> 2. It is still my dream that a bee may be produced that will be able to eliminate mites completely. If we are happy with bees with high mite levels this goal is increasingly unlikely.


IMO this dream cannot come true. We have to accept a situation where bee and mite live in symbiosis. I would like a low threshold though so there is not so much struggle. 
But even with more resistance there will always be a number of hives which succumb to disease and pests.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

A dying hive over the winter is inevitable. No matter how some will be dead for sure even with
active winter management. I worked too hard last season. So this year I take things rather easy going and
relaxed most of the time. Just let things developed more naturally. #1 goal this year is to study the mites and
bees relationships inside the hives better. There is a saying that you cannot beat your enemy without understanding
them first. So I'm not going to kill off all the mites. It seems like we have the A type mites here not the B type mentioned 
on the mite link. That means beating the mites here will require more resistant bees developed over time. It is to say importing the resistant queens may not help much in the 1st season. Their daughters mated with the local drones might give a clearer picture of combating the local mites better. In the mean time I have to help out by reducing the mite population inside the hives a bit. Two cap brood frames from the small fridge incubator will harbor up to 400 mites per emerged cycle. How impressive!


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> IMO this dream cannot come true.


I was wondering who would be the first to say that. 

I would say, never say never. 

Think about this. Many human diseases and plagues have dissapeared completely, for example, leprosy. What we call leprosy today is not the same disease as the leprosy recorded in ancient literature, that mysteriously vanished some time more than 1,000 years ago. It is not impossible for a disease or pathogen to go extinct, those events can happen naturally. Then there are diseases such as smallpox, which have been eradicated through human intervention, we exterminated it.

So diseases CAN be eradictaed, either by nature, or human intervention. So my own belief is that varroa mites will probably be with us for as long as bees are. But there is also a chance we will find a way to exterminate them. It should not be seen as impossible. For example, if GMO of bees was done at an advanced level in a couple hundred years time, it is very feasable a bee could be made that would render varroa mites sterile if they suck the bees blood. 

Not arguing the rights or wrongs of GMO, just saying that by that, or other means, dreams sometimes come true.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Every now and then some disease we think extinct pops up again.

It´s a great advantage we have some weapons to use against this and may not die because of medicaments or other interventions. But as you can see with antibiotics it´s a race science must win.

It´s probably a mistake disturbing some balances in nature. The mites were strangers but now they are worldwide and must be regarded as a part of nature. 

It´s the global import and fast shifting of disease and pests through mankind that is most dangerous to nature because the time to adapt is too short or the fauna and flora is not predestined to such an input.

GMO, who decides what is beneficial and what should be erased? Could be used in a most disturbing way on plants and animals. Or maybe could mean a great future.

Sorry this is off-topic and a question of ethics


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

If mite vector disiease that bees are susceptible then I am sure there are diseases that affect mites. Surly they don't all die of accident and old age. Maby some day there will be a mite pandemic. Maby it will be one that does not affect bees also. Maby it will be like other animals and will come because they are overpopulated and nature decides to cut them down. 

It is hard to say what is possible or when what is happening is helping or hurting towards such a goal as mite extintion. I did always wonder if we ever became successfull and killed all mosquitos what else would die with them. 

I always wanted to kill the things that bothered me personally with out thought of the bigger picture. When the mole are in my yard, I want to kill them all but am not smart enough and so I go for thier food. Sorta like what we did when we killed all the buffalo so we could concor the land. 

I could add things to the list like crickets and spiders in my basement and mice and poisen ivy and and and.

Four years ago I could give a dang about mites. Now that they are on my radar, it would be another thing to add to my kill list. I believe I could single handedly destroy the world if I wasn't so lazy.

Hey, I am just goofing off and not really hopeing to destroy this thread. Please forgive me for having a little fun.
Thanks
gww

Ps Oh, and I forgot snakes.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

You forgot ticks, gww.
But since I saw that my new chicken et ticks ( and mites off my frozendrone pupa) I think they have a purpose even if they ( ticks) were able to kill an elk in canada.


----------



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

SiW...
Oh yea, ticks.
Cheers
gww


----------



## CLSranch (May 15, 2017)

Old timer. I think on your #2 objective that the more you do half of the eliminating of mites for the bee's the less the bees have to do to get the mite count down. If they are fighting them on their own they have to actually fight them. Therefore (in theory) they would slowly get better at it.

I guess I'm saying for that dream to come true, not treating would make it closer to possible. But I'm no scientist.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wisdom in that statement.

However, _apis cerana_ have been treatment free for thousands of years and they still have varroa mites. My thoughts, to achieve mite free status will require what the bees can do, with the addition of some human scientific intervention. 

I am not saying it can be done, just saying that regarding it as impossible is not the basis on which humans have made the advances we have.

Just like the other diseases we have wiped off the planet, that would still be with us if everyone involved had decided it couldn't be done.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

CLSranch said:


> ....the more you do half of the eliminating of mites for the bee's the less the bees have to do to get the mite count down....
> 
> I guess I'm saying for that dream to come true, not treating would make it closer to possible. But I'm no scientist.



On my constant mite removal post attempting the tf option, I managed to removed 90% of the mites using the binary hives method. I have to use an incubator to emerged the bees in and then get rid of the mites manually. Interesting way to get closer to the newly emerged bees. That is more than half of eliminating the mites so the bees don't have to work as hard. If I have the tame gentle bees like OT using my method I'll be selling my bees and system there. Too bad my bees are a bit testy during the summer dearth. I'm changing stocks to the gentle type to keep now. 
C_Roland has a method to increase bees so I combine it with my mites removal method. Consolidate the mites and get rid of them when the broods are cap. Surprising to see 400-500 new and old mites in 2 frame of cap broods. A very good method to count the mite level too. The end result is a chemical free healthy hive in just one week instead of 3 weeks like using oav.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

When I took part in my old forum it was claimed that the culling of a part of mite infested comb would teach the bees the mite fighting behavior and still let them survive because the mite count would be less.

I must say there is no evidence the bees learn this over generations through such a management. With our group this learning did not happen. To me, IMHO, it´s just like a treatment with chemicals.

The tolerance and resistance mechanisms are the genes and supported by beekeeping methods and the banning of chemicals. IMO. Over years with selecting by nature or man this could be successful in a mite- bee relationship, but still the mites will be there.With science there could be another solution to this, if it´s a better one in the end we will see.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The crushed queen inside the hive will let the bees know that they need to make a new one.
The squished stinky squash bugs will let out another smell other than the stinky smell of the bug itself.
I'm sure some crushed mites will let the bees know this is their enemy inside the hive. Another way to let
the bees know to get rid of the mites. Then with 10% mites remaining if the bees know how to get rid of
these completely then my experiment is a successful one. AI method is next to further propagate these resistant
bees. If not then go back to square one of finding the resistance bees. If it works then find other compatible resistant
bees to incorporate into my existing resistant line for further mite resistance enhancement. I have confidence that one day this can be done!


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> I'm sure some crushed mites will let the bees know this is their enemy inside the hive.


Interesting theory!
Maybe this works with the bitten mites too.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Maybe. But varroa mites have a cunning trick. They adjust themselves to smell exactly the same as the bees. Reason, the hive is dark, bees work by touch and smell. That's why we see mites walking around and the bees do nothing. The mites feel like a bee, and smell like one, the bees have no idea the mites are even there.

Experiments were done where varroa mites were taken from a hive and put in another hive. Over a 24 hour period the mites had adjusted their scent to smell exactly like the new hive.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Maybe. But varroa mites have a cunning trick. They adjust themselves to smell exactly the same as the bees. Reason, the hive is dark, bees work by touch and smell. That's why we see mites walking around and the bees do nothing. The mites feel like a bee, and smell like one, the bees have no idea the mites are even there.
> 
> Experiments were done where varroa mites were taken from a hive and put in another hive. Over a 24 hour period the mites had adjusted their scent to smell exactly like the new hive.


Really? Interesting! Then how do the mite biters know they bite mites inside the hive and not the bees? Do the stress pheromones of the bees start this, like those of the pupa starts the hygienic behavior ?
And do the SHB smell like the hive too? Then why do the bees fight them? I have no experience with SHB, but I noticed they imitate the behavior of bees feeding bees.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> I am not saying it can be done, just saying that regarding it as impossible is not the basis on which humans have made the advances we have.


There is a saying in German that goes like this: (roughly translated) 

*"Everyone said: That's not possible. Then came a man who did not know and just did it."* 

If you make a living from bees, it is very hard to make up the losses that comes with resistance "breeding". But it is the commercial beekeeper who does have the resources to do such things. But nobody pays you for producing dead colonies. That's the problem. 

Second problem is, you can't really "breed" because the usual breeding methods do not apply to bees. You would need to artificially inseminate the queens in order to control your breeding material. 

One professor here in Germany has calculated that you need to make about 10,000 colonies from one queen to replicate all the genetic potential of that one queen. From there you'd select the daughters with the genes you want. Impractical for real life, but an issue you need to consider when "breeding" bees. The solution this professor developed is, he pools the colonies. He and his many helpers (it is a group working on resistance breeding) collect semen of drones of roughly 300 hives of a pool of survivor hives, homogenizes the semen and artificially inseminates queens from that pool. So those queens carry a huge pool of genetics in their spermathecae. Semen from 300 different colonies. We'll see if this works out. I reckon' this is a promising project, since it perfectly fits in the bees' reproduction biology. Inbreeding with maximum diversity. :scratch:


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"Never tell a young person that anything cannot be done. God may have been waiting centuries for someone ignorant enough of the impossible to do that very thing."--G. M. Trevelyan

"Children are born optimists and we slowly educate them out of their heresy." - Louise Imogen Guiney

"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."--George Bernard Shaw

"Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done."--Robert A. Heinlein

"An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?."-Rene Descartes

"Impossible is a word humans use far too often."-Seven of Nine (Star Trek Voyageur)

"The question isn’t who is going to let me; it’s who is going to stop me."-Ayn Rand

"We are continually faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as insoluble problems."-John W. Gardner


----------



## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> Really? Interesting! Then how do the mite biters know they bite mites inside the hive and not the bees? Do the stress pheromones of the bees start this, like those of the pupa starts the hygienic behavior ?
> And do the SHB smell like the hive too? Then why do the bees fight them? I have no experience with SHB, but I noticed they imitate the behavior of bees feeding bees.


Search for "Ghosts In the hive", Dr. Ricarda Kather recorded presentation from 2013 National Honey Show. Interesting stuff. From experimentation, it appears that mites have ability to "soak in" various chemical compounds from bees of the hive and blend in (from smell perspective). 

I have no scientific evidence to back what I am about to say. But that lecture got me thinking. Chemical communication plays large role in the hive functions. 

* Bees go onto making queen cells based on lack of certain Queen chemicals. 
* Failing queen triggers supercedure. 
* Just disabling queen so her movement through hive is restricted, triggers supercedure
* Hive separated by queen excluder or honey super can trigger queen cells in different part of the hive
* Diluted (too large of hive) chemical signature could trigger swarming 
* Russian bees are more prone to swarming. They also make Queen cups most of the time. 
* Introducing Russian queens into Italian/other hives is trickier 

Put it all together, one could conclude that a stronger chemical signature (and production of it) in a hive, better varroa could cloak itself. But stronger chemistry could also keep larger hives together. 

Conversely a weaker chemical signature could enable bees to identify varroa much more readily.

Its like a person inability to smell things in the presence of overwhelming odor vs ability to pick up things when background odor is at low levels. 

Sorry for random thoughts. But I believe VSH, mite biters etc may have either lower production of the chemicals in question or better sensors.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> "Never tell a young person that anything cannot be done. God may have been waiting centuries for someone ignorant enough of the impossible to do that very thing."--G. M. Trevelyan
> 
> "Children are born optimists and we slowly educate them out of their heresy." - Louise Imogen Guiney
> 
> ...


You forgot one.
"You can't fit ten gallons of 'honey' into a five-gallon hat unless it's full of holes" -Aunt Betty


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If I listen to the many impossible comments then I cannot learn as fast without having a mentor from the start. Designing little
bee experiment is how I learn about them according to my semi-desert bee environment here. Had made 2 oav gadgets but
chose a tf option instead. Yes, it is a challenge to get the resistant genes locked in but it can be done with the proper tools, understand and
knowledge. I'm learning about the mites as much as I can now. Maybe as simple as crushing the mites to make mite juice and spraying them on
the bees to get rid of the mites. When the plants got cut other plants around them emit a different chemical maybe to signal danger ahead. Milkweeds will emit a white sap. I'm sure such a chemical can be synthesized if it is that simple. Oh, Russians, vsh and mite bitters have more sensitivity than the docile non-resistant bees. But when they turn mean they will use their sensitivity on you just like the AHB do. I'm talking about the vsh mean bees here. 2% in the hives will keep the mites low and not cause headaches to the beekeeper and anyone else around. Still learning though so experiment on.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

After California secedes renting bees from the USA might become a challenge so by all means hurry and get that mite-juice experiment going.  
Good luck. (I mean it)


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

...........


> Have no fear of perfection – you’ll never reach it.
> Habe keine Angst vor Perfektion (Vollkommenheit) – Du wirst sie nie erreichen.
> Salvador Dalí


----------



## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

DaisyNJ said:


> Search for "Ghosts In the hive", Dr. Ricarda Kather recorded presentation from 2013 National Honey Show. Interesting stuff. From experimentation, it appears that mites have ability to "soak in" various chemical compounds from bees of the hive and blend in (from smell perspective).
> 
> I have no scientific evidence to back what I am about to say. But that lecture got me thinking. Chemical communication plays large role in the hive functions.
> 
> ...


Good post DaisyNJ. Six years of experience tells me most of this is right. I run all VSH bees of various makes and models so to speak except for captured swarms. I would say supersedure happens even more often than your post implies. The only part I would disagree with is the one that says "Diluted (too large of a hive) chemical signature could trigger swarming" In my experience running four mediums or two deeps and a medium for hive bodies actually reduces the swarm impulse. It certainly does more to reduce it than any of the things I have read in beekeeping books on swarm reduction does. Thanks again for the "Ghosts in the hive" info.


----------



## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

beepro said:


> If I listen to the many impossible comments then I cannot learn as fast without having a mentor from the start. Designing little
> bee experiment is how I learn about them according to my semi-desert bee environment here. Had made 2 oav gadgets but
> chose a tf option instead. Yes, it is a challenge to get the resistant genes locked in but it can be done with the proper tools, understand and
> knowledge. I'm learning about the mites as much as I can now. Maybe as simple as crushing the mites to make mite juice and spraying them on
> the bees to get rid of the mites. When the plants got cut other plants around them emit a different chemical maybe to signal danger ahead. Milkweeds will emit a white sap. I'm sure such a chemical can be synthesized if it is that simple. Oh, Russians, vsh and mite bitters have more sensitivity than the docile non-resistant bees. But when they turn mean they will use their sensitivity on you just like the AHB do. I'm talking about the vsh mean bees here. 2% in the hives will keep the mites low and not cause headaches to the beekeeper and anyone else around. Still learning though so experiment on.


Beepro, from personal experience, the meanest VSH bees are nothing compared to AHB. I run 100% VSH bees except for captured swarms and they are quite calm when working with them. Do not get me wrong, I have had some (Pol-Lines for example) which were hot by VSH standards. Also, If memory serves, I thought AHB bees resistance to varroa mites was based more on a shorter brood cycle (19 days compared to 21) in European bees.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

J.Lee said:


> In my experience running four mediums or two deeps and a medium for hive bodies actually reduces the swarm impulse.


It would appear that way, because anything smaller than that would be much to small in the context of domestic bees run for honey production, and would increase tendency to swarm.

Sure, natural (wild) hives are usually smaller than that, but they swarm frequently, long as they are in good health.


----------

