# Cloake Board ?



## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

In using the cloake board system I have a few questions. The bottom hives entrance is turned and the board added between the bottom box and upper box. The process is started with starting and finishing. After the 1st run of cells is complete is the bottom hive body returned to its origional position for a day or so until the second graft is made?
Thanks for any suggestions on the Cloake board method>


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Interesting you asked, I wondered that too!! I've been returning the bottom entrance to the front after the first couple day's with each graft so that again they would have to go to the top box when I set them up for the next graft. 

I had not used this system until this summer and I'm very impressed with the results!!


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## habutti (Apr 20, 2008)

LT, if you are using the same hive as a "starter/cell builder" and a "finisher", then once the colony becomes a finisher "queenright" I usually put the hive back in its original state, both entries to the front. It will be this way for about 4-5 days, which is how often you can start a new graft of queen cells; and then do it all over again. I also usually add a frame or two of emerging brood per batch of graft just to boost up the population of young bees. Hope this helps!


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

LT writes:
After the 1st run of cells is complete is the bottom hive body returned to its origional position for a day or so until the second graft is made?

tecumseh:
perhaps I am missing some point large or small in your question?

as far as I know a cloak board (or double screen) is employed whereby the starter and the finisher colony is one and the same. the entrances are switch (typically when newly grafted cells are introduced) to crowd that part of the hive where the grafted cells are placed. these entrance are switch again when the cloak board (or double screen) is removed (you would then replace this with a queen excluder) to return the hive to it's original or finisher position. since the hive is now in the finishing mode there is NO second graft.


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## habutti (Apr 20, 2008)

tecumseh and LT; there is a second graft or as many as you wish, if you are doing more than one graft. Remember the job of the finisher hive is simple that, to finish the queen cell to a cap state, once capped you move the frame to a nuc or any other hive you've determined to complete incubation or place each queen cell in its mating nuc or incubator for that matter. Wash rinse and do it all over again; finisher becomes a cell builder/starter, then it becomes a finisher and you know the procedure. Now if you are just looking for a few queen cells, then yes the finisher can keep the queen cells until the day before emergence. You are not limited to one round, only if one round is all that you are looking for. Just thoght I'd clarify that.
Chas


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

I don't know about LT but most certainly I am still confused.

I think??? this may be the comments in regards to 'second graft' may be fuzzy (in regards to time line). I mostly employed starter boxes and 'the second graft' is sometimes performed two days later just after the 'first graft' has been placed in a seperate finisher hive (these starters are by definition always queenless). for starting cells in a 'queen right' hive one part of the hive MUST be queenless and when both the top and bottom of the hive are queenright (cloak board or double screen removed) the only function this hive CAN perform is to finish cells.

ps the folks I have seen use 'cloak board type queen starter hives' keep one entrance on the front and one on the back of the hive at all times. depending on the function (starting or finishing) of the hive each entrance will be moving the bees into different parts of the box. without the cloak board the position of top or bottom entrance doesn't really matter that much... it is only in the cell starting mode where crowding that portion of the hive made queenright should really matter.


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## HalfBakedHoney (Sep 16, 2008)

So if there is a front and back entrance on resident queen's box, each can be opened and closed depending on the current step of the sequence? This would mean not lifting the resident queen's box, right?

Then after removing the new queen cells to their own nucs, every 4-5 days an entire new sequence can be started because that's how long it takes for them to cap the new queen cells, which happens to be the real reason for putting them into the queenless state in the first place? Or that's how long they need BETWEEN sequences to feel queen right? Do they need to feel queen right in the upper box again before starting the sequence?

So then what is the real purpose of the resident queen? To produce workers to work the grafted queen cells every time the entrance is switched to the back? And what is the purpose of the excluder, to make them feel queen right again in the nursery box in between full sequences? Otherwise with a solid board between, would the bees in the nursery box obscond or find their way to the resident queen in the lower box?

Is the resident queen ever allowed above again to lay? Otherwise would the nurse bees ever move back up?

When the entrance on the resident queen's box is switched back to the first position, do the workers returning to the second position eventually find their way?

HBH
(How's that for my first post?!?)


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Gents; you may be trying to complicate this method! Here's a good rundown by Susan Cobey on the Cloake method: http://www.easternmobeekeepers.com/documents/CloakeBoard.pdf?itemID=10607&catID=146&SelectCatID=146.

If you'll look under Optional Use of Support Colonies on about page 3 there's no need to manipulate the entrances if you simply provide nurse bees and emerging brood from some other strong colonies. In fact, you'll find you'll need to provide more young bees anyway, unless you're just going to rear one or two batches of queen cells. The cell starter needs to be boiling over with young bees to get super quality cells.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

HBH
(How's that for my first post?!?)

tecumseh:
pretty good.

hbh writes:
So if there is a front and back entrance on resident queen's box, each can be opened and closed depending on the current step of the sequence? This would mean not lifting the resident queen's box, right?

tecumseh:
the fellow I know who use this method for producing large number of queens cells does flip the upper and lower boxes position as part of the process.

then hbh writes:
Then after removing the new queen cells to their own nucs, every 4-5 days an entire new sequence can be started because that's how long it takes for them to cap the new queen cells, which happens to be the real reason for putting them into the queenless state in the first place? Or that's how long they need BETWEEN sequences to feel queen right? Do they need to feel queen right in the upper box again before starting the sequence?

tecmseh:
most folks who use this system commercially use one hive as starter and finisher. the started cells are not removed and placed into another hive at all. at or about day 8 they are set in an incubator where the individual cells are 'light bulbed' for viability.

then hbh writes:
So then what is the real purpose of the resident queen? To produce workers to work the grafted queen cells every time the entrance is switched to the back? And what is the purpose of the excluder, to make them feel queen right again in the nursery box in between full sequences? Otherwise with a solid board between, would the bees in the nursery box obscond or find their way to the resident queen in the lower box?

tecumseh:
the excluder allow you to move green brood into the queen rearing portion of the hive which will then pull the brood bees into that portion of the hive before the cloak board is set in place.

hbh writes:
When the entrance on the resident queen's box is switched back to the first position, do the workers returning to the second position eventually find their way?

tecumseh:
first position??? which is the first position???

if you place an entrance at the front and the back of the hive and simply flip these entrance to turning bees into the top or bottom of the hive there is little to no confusion in regards to the field bees returning to the hive. if you shut off an entrance (on the front or back of the hive) then the field bees will cluster there and eventually find the entrance on the opposite side of the box (even if it is on the opposite side of the hive but this take time).

the real purpose in flipping the entrance is to crowd that portion of the box that is rearing cells.

fish stik writes:
In fact, you'll find you'll need to provide more young bees anyway, unless you're just going to rear one or two batches of queen cells. 

tecumseh:
you have used this method a great deal???

if you have a properly laying queen which is being fed constantly why would you need to add bees to this hive?


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## HalfBakedHoney (Sep 16, 2008)

First position would be the original position of anything in a sequence.

I was asking, for example, if the hive opening originally facing South (first position) is rotated to facing North (second position) to encourage the South returning bees to enter the nursery box, then when the resident queen hive entrance is changed back to facing South (first position) would the field bees returning to the North entrance find their way over to the new South entrance? Anyway, you answered my question.

So....It seems to me, if the beek installs grafts, then the only role of the resident queen hive is to provide workers leading me to deduece that in a small time operation (which is my selfish concern rather than commercial), this whole thing could be accomplished without the expense of the Cloake Board. Wouldn't it be feasible to simply move the resident queen box to another yard or manage her as any other moved hive? Somewhat like the maneuver of switching the positions of a strong with a weak hive? Just as long as the nursery box was started and maintained on the stronger hive? In fact, it would be an opportunity to move the resident queen box to a different hive location that was queenless.

Okay....so maybe I'm only "getting" part of this but I really enjoy the discussion. It's SO interesting. Thanks for letting me play along.

HBH
(no bees yet)


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

this whole thing could be accomplished 

Some of us prefer a queen right cell builder.
Some of us prefer a queen less cell builder.
I prefer the queen right cell builder because the bees are manipulated often and the queen lees cell builder can be inclined to deliver stings.
I added sealled brood to the cell builder often to keep the population up for making good well fed queens.
The disadvantage of the Cloake board is that a virgin queen can fly into the upper entrance and destroy the cells.
Ernie


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## Pooh (Mar 8, 2007)

I put a slice of queen excluder over the upper entrance to keep virgins out.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Tecumseh; yes I have used this system in a commercial operation of 1000 + hives. We set up two Cloake Board hives and maintained them constantly for several months. The resident queen cannot possibly provide enough nurse bees to keep her double hive and the cell starter going successfully so the addition of more capped/emerging brood plus more shaken nurse bees is critical to making quality cells. I don't know how many cells you need in your operation, we were starting 45 cells per hive, but that cell starter has to be a very strong hive. Whether you use a Cloake board system or just a queenless hive as a starter you need bees boiling out when you open the top. When I first started working in this business while in high school, the beekeeper I worked for had a large Royal Jelly clientel, so we had approximately 30 5-frame nucs set up as cell starters. Shaking bees and adding brood frames was a daily chore or you'd quickly find that the bees wouldn't be able to keep the cells filled with jelly and we'd get small or rejected cells. Keep those cell starters booming with bees! BTW, if you'll go to Youtube and search for "Raising Queen Bees" or for Malka Queens there is a series of videos showing their operation in Argentina. Notice the hordes of bees when they open a cell starter.


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## HalfBakedHoney (Sep 16, 2008)

fish stix~

This is really interesting and I see why you need the shaken nurse bees and added emerging brood. But then what value does the resident queen add, especially once the board is put in? I mean, couldn't the whole thing be done without her?

~HBH


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Mr Tecumseh:

A Cloak board is not a double screen board. It's an upper entrance for bees. A slider goes into the frame to seperate the top box from the bottom one. A queen excluder is mounted on the frame to prevent the queen from going up into the top box. I believe our very own Michael Bush calls them a floor without a floor.

Typically the bees fly in the bottom entrance. The top one is closed. Hatching brood is placed in the top box. Honey and pollen frames.The day before grafting the normal front entrance is closed. The one at the back is opened, or the bottom box is reversed (big pain, make a bottom with 2 openings and a movable block to close an entrance) The slider is put in between box 1 and 2. So all the bees can't go in the normal bottom so they fly up and end up in top box. This creates congestion ( think swarming impulse , good for cell building) The slider seperates the top box bees from the queen, so less queen pheromone. This too is an impulse for cell building. The bees in the bottom box are now flying out of the new entrance but return to the old one . It's closed so the fly up into the top box. 

One day later graft. One day aftger grafting remove the slider and block the entrance , the front one is now open. The top box is now a Queenright cell finisher. More nurse bees in the top box is better. Hatching brood is also most helpfull.

Jean-Marc


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

jean-marc said:


> More nurse bees in the top box is better. Hatching brood is also most helpfull.
> 
> Jean-Marc



do you have the hatching brood in with the queen cells? 

I had tried the cloak board years ago without much success, tried it again this year they started 50 queen cells but only finished 7. so I did it again and after removing slide, put two frames of hatching brood back in with the queen cells and this time they had started 40 and I got 33 good cells.

mike


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

half baked writes:
Wouldn't it be feasible to simply move the resident queen box to another yard or manage her as any other moved hive?

tecumseh:
sounds feasible. you are seperating out the queen and creating a queenless starter box it would seem.

fish stick writes:
The resident queen cannot possibly provide enough nurse bees to keep her double hive and the cell starter going successfully so the addition of more capped/emerging brood plus more shaken nurse bees is critical to making quality cells. I don't know how many cells you need in your operation, we were starting 45 cells per hive, but that cell starter has to be a very strong hive.

tecumseh:
I can understand the basic concept of crowding but don't really follow along with your logic here. again a small question... why is the queen in this queen right cell builder incapable of maintaining population to rear 50 cells.

as stated before I don't use this system but prefer a queenless starter box myself. the fellow who I buy queen cells appears to rear about the same number of cells/rotation but has about 50 hives set up to rear the quantity of cells he sells.

jean-marc writes:
A Cloak board is not a double screen board. It's an upper entrance for bees. A slider goes into the frame to seperate the top box from the bottom one. A queen excluder is mounted on the frame to prevent the queen from going up into the top box. I believe our very own Michael Bush calls them a floor without a floor.

tecumseh:
they may not have the same name or be construct in EXACTLY the same fashion but in the fuction of using a queenright hive for making queen cells they can (and do) the same thing..... which is to seperate two portion of a hive to make one portion temporarily queenless. even a simple flat bit of plywood or sheet metal (without any of the fancy frills of a double screen or cloak board) will accomplish this basic task. 

your second sentence with the use of 'Its' is confusing.... ie what does its refer too exactly.

the remainder of your description sounds to be about like the one employed by the fellow who produces hygenic cells for me. he flips the boxes (back and forth) as part of your description suggest... so their position tells you exactly what they are doing at any particular point in time.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Trying to follow this thread is twisting my brain.

Or maybe that"s a result of the stings from running over a ground swarm a couple of hours ago.

For an excellent discription of the use of a Cloake Board ,see Dave Cushmans web site:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/method2.html

Click on Cloake Board and you will get plans.

Dave's site has a wealth of information on beekeeping,a good resource for beekeepers.

Thanks for the link to Sue Cobey,her article in one of the bee mags introduced me to the use of a Cloake Board.

Jack


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## Bill Bru (Apr 23, 2015)

I see where several of the above posts mention grafting queens. I'm confused! I thought one of the advantages of using the cloake board system was so you did not have to deal with grafting. Can someone clarify my "confusion" on this point?


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