# They say Americans are getting grumpy about the never ending rising prices these days



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

If you're able to buy in bulk there on the W coast there is Shastina Girls. Nuc bodies for 9.00 each is what I was quoted a few days ago. Pallet of 135 I believe. 

However, I've plenty of time on my hands through the winter and choose to build myself instead using lumber from big blue. lol.. costs me 7.80 for the same NUC box..


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

drlonzo said:


> If you're able to buy in bulk there on the W coast there is Shastina Girls. Nuc bodies for 9.00 each is what I was quoted a few days ago. Pallet of 135 I believe.
> 
> However, I've plenty of time on my hands through the winter and choose to build myself instead using lumber from big blue. lol.. costs me 7.80 for the same NUC box..


Ditto shastina. Great price with October Sale. The best i've seen at $13/deep, free shipping. I build all of my boxes overwinter. My finish product cost is about $4/deep. Of course my free labor/time. The biggest cost now is frames. About $2.00 per frame+plastic foundation......obviously foundationless is the next cost savings there.... 

Per deep my cost is about $24. Or about $100/hive including bottom and tops. 

Deeps vs mediums is another cost savings.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I always have built all of my own equipment just for the reasons mentioned above. I use all deeps and the 12 footers I bought yesterday were $9.46. I'll get 2 deeps out of each board. They won't be as fancy as the bought ones but they'll work just as well. If I had to buy my equipment, I'd have to give up beekeeping. Of course, I'm just a hobbyist and build everything by hand, but it still works for me. The stuff I can't build (like the occasional excluder or my MegaBee) I order for pickup at one of the meetings. Gives me an excuse to go.


Rusty


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have 110 nuc boxes to paint and 400 shallow supers to assemble and paint. I have 400 plastic frames to wax and drawn combs to sort before they go into nuc boxes and go south. That's some of my Winter Work Stockpiled.

Shallow supers from Bee Tree Farm in NH. $8.00 each.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Mark, I hope you already bought your materials.

If you haven't purchased your nuc box's yet, you might condsider getting 8 frame deeps instead. 

I phased out my 5 frame deeps last year because 8 frame was actually cheaper to buy. I loved the extra room and the fact they would accomodate an interior feeder. 
It made managing the nucs a lot more efficient and resulted in a better colony overall.










To get a feeder in a 5 frame nuc I really needed to run them as doubles before very long. 










I bought 500 8 frame deeps & 250 10 frame deeps last year..I figured I could cut them down to mediums if I needed them & get a rim out of the deal. I paid $8.66 each for 10 frame and 8 frame unassembled deeps. 
After seeing the trend for price increases the last couple years, I went out on a bit of a limb last year and bought a supply at prices that will likely never be seen again, that will last me a very long time. 

But without enough frames and foundation to go with them, I still feel like I am lacking in my attempt to be well stocked. I can go foundationless, although I would not do that by choice. But I would hate to have to fabricate all my frames from scratch.

Thank goodness these frames with partial foundation work SO well. I put a lot of time and effort into running these this year. I have total confidence in reliably awesome results.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...sheet-of-foundation-in-deep-frames-experiment


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Lauri said:


> Thank goodness these frames with partial foundation work SO well. I put a lot of time and effort into running these this year. I have total confidence in reliably awesome results.


Lauri. 1/2,1/3,2/3 which do you prefer and why


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

You might be right Lauri, 8 framers for nucs, with a feeder, you can even get a real 5 frames in there, well, at least 6 even.... I purchased 20 5 framers at $10.50, that was quoted mill run, but I got hooked up with some decent stuff. My personal favorites are the places that offer super low prices online, but it costs $15 to ship one item and the price goes up with every item you add to the order....


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

All three were great, with slightly different results. 

They were all new frames, placed tight together, so the depth of the drawn comb is quite shallow. Next year, after they get a start on drawing the frames, I'll space them out a bit to get fatter comb & heavier chunks of honeycomb. 

The larger foundation gave me more worker sized cells & better for placing directly in the broodnest areas next year. A 2/3 sheet yielded two -3/4# honeycomb chunks on average.

Half sheet of foundation was a better size for the honeycomb harvest. Not too small, not too big. Honeycomb yield was two-1 1/2# chunks per frame. 
Enough worker sized cells to place the frames in the brood area next year without too much concern.

The 1/3 sheet scared me a little goin in, but it was drawn out perfectly. 
The honeycomb chunks were a little large for how I package mine. They were about 2 1/4# each. Not as much worker sized cells drawn, so placing this drawn frame in the broodnest area a next year would be restricted to the outside frames only, if at all.

The frame below was in the third deep, near the center. You can see the bottom center was used to rear brood and is now being backfilled with nectar.










Still harvestable, Just cut around the dark comb.










The 1/3 foundation frame produced comb this size. Almost too large for my butcher trays and foodsaver bags.










These frames go in the freezer until wax moth's are gone with freezing weather. They can be extracted or can used next year to make up nucs.











I will mostly be making half sheet frames this year.

If a person wanted to do mostly foundationless- a 1/4 sheet in the center would still be enough to stablize the comb sufficiently in these deep frames. I happen to have a big box of scrap foundation I'll be making some of these 1/4 sheets next year just to show how it works.

Of course if the foundationless part is drawn with too much large cell, it's easy to hack it out and start over. But with the centers drawn correctly, it is a good start for quick reworking & great for bait frames to get them up & working a new box..


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## Snowhitsky (Mar 1, 2014)

You think equipment is expensive? Over here in Spain, the cost of the lumber is greater than a fully assembled hive with frames and bits! Unless you are really into woodworking as a hobby, it just isn't worth the effort.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Snowhitsky said:


> You think equipment is expensive? Over here in Spain, the cost of the lumber is greater than a fully assembled hive with frames and bits! Unless you are really into woodworking as a hobby, it just isn't worth the effort.


Very true Snowhitsky..Is that why you all go with polystyrene?


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

O so the the goal of partial foundation was for cut comb harvest.....Ignoring cut comb, using solely for brood and even perhaps extracting what would you chose? 

Ps if you don't mind me asking what did your ask price for the 1/3,1/2 cut comb sections?


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Lauri, have you run any of the partial foundation frames through an extractor?


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## Snowhitsky (Mar 1, 2014)

Lauri said:


> Very true Snowhitsky..Is that why you all go with polystyrene?


Actually the polystyrene hives are twice the price of the wood ones (158$ vs 68$ VAT inc., langstroth deep body+ deep super). I don't actually know of anyone in my area (south of Barcelona) who uses polystyrene hives. To be honest, most beekeepers in my area are pretty conversative and have only recently started converting from Layens to Langstroth or Dadant so I can't see them taking up this material anytime soon.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks Snowhitsky. Interesting..photos would be appreciated if you have them of your materials and methods.

Lee, I have not extracted them. Burns, I have not sold any yet.

I've nearly doubled my hive numbers every year for the last couple years and let the bees keep most of the frames. I do have a new Maxant 20 fram radial extractor that has never seen a drop of honey. My harvest of honeycomb was really my first. Just enough for the family and friends..Christmas gifts, etc.

Spring of:
2011-7 colonies (purchased nucs)
2012-35 colonies (with package purchases)
2013-85 overwintered colonies ( from my own increases)
2014-130 overwintered colonies (From my own increases)
Currently, I'm going into winter of 2014 with 240 colonies (From my own increases)

I'm a little different than most beekeepers here. I wasn't interested in the honey when I started beekeeping. I was more interested in the woodworking, science & queen rearing end. The queen rearing and labor it's taken me to grow to this point has been all I can handle.

But I still need to produce a substantial crop of honey to feed all the new nucs and for the hives to sustain themselves without much feeding. But I have to admit, the honey end is getting very interesting. I'm certainly well set up for some production If I choose to go that route.

I'm not planning to expand in 2015 so a honeycrop will need to be harvested. By using many of these partial frames, that will be something I can do without too much help.

I live right on a rural highway and have people stopping in wanting honey all the time. (They see the hives) I'd never have to leave my place. There is a demand here I can't continue to ignore.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

burns375 said:


> O so the the goal of partial foundation was for cut comb harvest.....Ignoring cut comb, using solely for brood and even perhaps extracting what would you chose?
> 
> Ps if you don't mind me asking what did your ask price for the 1/3,1/2 cut comb sections?


If efficiency of the frame was the _only _consideration, I would probably choose the 2/3 sheet over all others, _including_ a solid sheet.

But I really liked a half sheet too, as you see here in the photo. Here you see a good amount of brood in the center, with good feed stores on the sides. By giving them room to rear drones, they don't make a mess on the top or bottom of the frame with rogue drone cells. I get incredibly neat and tidy frames time after time.










As compared to a standard solid sheet of foundation:










People are afraid of getting too many drones with a frame like this. I want a good drone population for queen rearing. But Ill tell you. The colonies with good drone populations are _flourishing_. 

Here sre early spring frames on a 2/3 sheet:



















Once they back off drone rearing, these cells are filled with feed..just in time for the late summer dearth period. It holds the colonies very well during lean times and I noticed this year they were not near as 'pesky' in August as they have been in the past. I also notice they don't migrate up to feed and abandon the bottom box as much. These frames result in more feed being stored ON brood frames. 

But what I DON"T get is this:










Totally foundationless in deep frames suck. Some people will disagree with me on this. But I have no luck in _reliably _getting foundationless DEEP frames drawn with enough worker sized cells. They were simply a mess.

I want 10 out of 10 drawn well. Not 2 or 3 out of 10. And I want every frame to be 'brood nest' quality, if you know what I mean.

So now we'll see how they overwinter. I'm feeling good about it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

My last purchase from Dadant/Western commercial grade 500+ was almost a year ago. Deeps were $9.40, Mediums $6.60 (a dollar an inch if you will ), frames were .66. And 6 1/2" plasticell was .68. Getting ready to get price quotes again, I expect them to be somewhat higher. I guess it's how you look at it. If you have a substantial inventory of good saleable equipment I prefer to focus on the fact that my operation just gained in value in relation to the price increase.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> If you have a substantial inventory of good saleable equipment I prefer to focus on the fact that my operation just gained in value in relation to the price increase.


I like that way of thinking Jim


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> If you have a substantial inventory of good saleable equipment I prefer to focus on the fact that my operation just gained in value in relation to the price increase.


You think the price you paid for something new is equal to the same value used?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_*EQUAL*_? 

No I don't. I have bought and sold a "used" house for $_*MORE*_$ than it cost brand new! :lpf:


:gh:


Jim is correct, the price of used apiary equipment is defined, _in part_, by the price of new equipment.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> You think the price you paid for something new is equal to the same value used?


When dealing in good quality drawn comb the answer is an unequivocal yes.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well OK that would be like buying a shell house finishing it off and then selling it at a higher price. But you put a lot more into it then just the shell.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Acebird said:


> But you put a lot more into it then just the shell.


But the beauty is, the bees do all the work. 

Even a very light draw is, well, almost priceless at certain times of the year.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Well OK that would be like buying a shell house finishing it off and then selling it at a higher price. But you put a lot more into it then just the shell.


Do you not see an appreciation in value of a frame of foundation to a frame of drawn comb? That's what it's like, not anything else.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you not see an appreciation in value of a frame of foundation to a frame of drawn comb?


Sure I do. The same as if I bought 10 acres of land and put apple trees on it and sold it 10 years later.

Keeping it apples to apples what would the frames be worth in real dollars if you purchased frames and never put them in a hive and had to sell them the next year?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

:scratch: :doh:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Keeping it apples to apples, what would the apple tree property be worth if you bought apple tree saplings and _never planted the trees in the ground_ and had to sell the property 10 years later?

:scratch::doh:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

"Beekeeping - Full depth black plastic Foundation - 10 to Pack

Item condition:
New
Price:
AU $17.25
Approximately US $15.18
Shipping:
AU $278.70 (approx. US $245.19) AusPost Air Mail Parcel

Item location:
Adelaide, SA, Australia 
Ships to:
Worldwide"

Lauri, look at the shipping price. How can I afford 10 pieces of black foundation like this. NO, it is not a typo. 
Inflation is at 3% per year for sure here. Price will go up anyways but no way close compare to other country. Better load up your supplies on the empty space above
the current stack. I like to see it reach all the way to the top of the ceiling. Then you may have to use a forklift to bring them down. Still more room to grow, Lauri. 
Maybe a 2 year inventory is more like it. Buy or not the price will creep up gradually. I use a can of morton iodized salt for example.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

i c. Honey went into more bees. So if you had to chose a foundation size for brood, would you chose anything but a full sheet do to drones? This was my experience.....


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

burns375 said:


> So if you had to chose a foundation size for brood, would you chose anything but a full sheet do to drones? This was my experience.....


Yes, Your 1/3 sheet will net you the most drones or honeycomb, depending on the time of year, the age of the queen (Overwintered mature queen or newly mated one) and the frames placement within the hive.

Here's a typical 2/3 sheet out of an overwintered established hive/broodnest area.











Below is a frame drawn from a colony with a newly installed virgin queen. If you want more worker sized cells in your foundationless area, you need to give these frames to a colony that has no interest in rearing drones. _The age of your queen is as importaint as the placement of the frames within the hive_.











The frame below is from a colony I did a 'fly-back' simulated swarm on with an older twice overwintered queen. Because I took away almost all of their brood, they there desire to rear drones was greatly reduced as they focused their efforts to rebuild the comb and rebuild their population. A great way to stop swarming and get new clean frames drawn in a flash.

I found many times, with these new frames, the foundationless area near the entrances (Upper and lower) had large cells and drones, back side where it was warmer had smaller cells and worker brood. I've never seen that on a full sheet of foundation OR totally foundationless.










If you look closely, the left side is darker/large cells. Right side is lighter/ smaller cells. It could be the result if changing out the older overwintered queen for a virgin, or it could have been the result of the large cells near the entrance. 











Here's another deep frame where I tried to go totally foundationless. You can see why I'm so happy with the results of the partials:










To consider all the factors, the frame above was drawn by the bees in my original purchases, before I had any experience and before I got the line of Carnie Hybrids I have now. But I'd still never to totally foundationless in a deep frame for the instability factor and the extreme excess amount of drone cells if nothing else. 

I want reliably built worker cells neat and tidy right in the center of the frame. They can do what they want on the outside edges. But I _can_ control that too, if I wish.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Lauri,

All very interesting! How do you cut the rite cell foundation and not get burrs? Thanks.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Bee Bliss said:


> Lauri,
> 
> All very interesting! How do you cut the rite cell foundation and not get burrs? Thanks.


I cut them 8 - 10 at a time on my miter saw. I'll cut a whole case in about 5 minutes and have them stacked for assembly. Hold them tight to your fence and wear hearing and eye protection. Go slow. If you hit a loose one the blade will want to grab it.

If you only have a few to do, you can score & snap them easily.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Jim. I have always appreciated your knowledgeable approach. Everyone has a different approach to keeping bees and management styles. We all have different goals. Personally I prefer to rely on the trials and tribulations of older experts in relying on what works and what doesn't in managing my Apiaries. For me there is little need to try to reinvent the wheel as I go. For one thing its a waste of time and effort on my part. While I am not totally dependent on my bees for income I do try to run it like a business and be profitable. We produce honey for retail markerts, sell queens and a few nucs. When we need more boxes and equipment our generated sales pays for it. Im not counting on anything getting cheaper but I am counting on becoming better and more efficient at what I continue to do. My customers also know that my honey isn't likely to get any less expensive either.


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## green2btree (Sep 9, 2010)

Lauri, I don't know how you are doing your corners on boxes, but if you do box joints, a jig is wonderful. I asked for an Incra jig for Christmas (I am also female, and my Christmas lists always crack the family up - chainsaws, Ultrabreeze suit, doublecut saw... no jewelry for this gal.) and I love it.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

Not to stteal a thread but my thoughts on your statement.



Lauri said:


> I'm grateful for a Grandfather that took the time to show me how to use tools and do some simple woodworking when I was a young girl. As an adult, it has given me the skills to be very self sufficient.
> 
> 
> > Thats why I fear we're (older generation) falling short with a lot of the younger generations. When I was in school..we had trade classes such as woodworking, mechanical drawing for engineering, and car shop classes. These classes taught us "how to do stuff hands on". Today the schools are so busy trying to teach advanced classes for kids who will never even use a caluclator as an adult that they miss the point. They need more trade classes in todays school. IMHO
> ...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Santa Caras said:


> When I was in school..we had trade classes such as woodworking, mechanical drawing for engineering, and car shop classes.


This strikes a nerve. Unfortunately the counselors in our school used it to put all the goof offs in to get them through high school. I remember the counselor telling me, You don't want to take mechanical drawing you want college entrance courses. And I told her I am already taking more than I need. So in my senior year after taking all the courses the high school offered, I got the teacher to go to bat for me and I took an advanced course the school didn't offer. I drew up the plans for the house we built at the end of my senior year.

Now we have industry saying we have the jobs but we can't find qualified technical help. Just about what you would expect.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> When dealing in good quality drawn comb the answer is an unequivocal yes.


Used drawn boxes sold at auction last spring for $67 per box, nothing special about the equipment. The equipment went out to the east coast. the value if my operation increased 10% that day. 
It made buying new cheaper. Go figure


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> Used drawn boxes sold at auction last spring for $67 per box, nothing special about the equipment. The equipment went out to the east coast. the value if my operation increased 10% that day.
> It made buying new cheaper. Go figure


I may have been wrong there Ian. Good, newer, drawn comb really should be worth more, I know I would pay more than new price if I was confident of the source and it passed the "smell test".


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya I hear ya.
I will not buy drawn comb for that price. Might as well have the bees pull that value in.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> I know I would pay more than new price if I was confident of the source and it passed the "smell test".


Now the truth comes out.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Brian , you don't know what your talking about


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I've heard that before and proved many wrong.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

You mean proved yourself wrong


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Bahahahahaha


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the cost of agricultural supplies is often tided to the end product. If the price of corn or soybeans goes up soon the price of seed fertilizer tractors etc soon follow. my price for honey is the highest in my lifetime so of course everything used to make honey also goes up. no surprise on this end. just basic farm economics 101.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Just wait until 2015 nuc and package prices start coming out.
Because equipment, feed & supply prices have jumped, price increases are justifiable & probably should be expected.

Don't forget to factor in higher minimum wage & health care costs for small business


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

And queens! Yikes!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Ya, no time like the present to learn to be and overwintering expert and learn to _rear you own queens_.

For beginners, Forget that honey harvest for a year and learn to keep those bees_* alive*_ first.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Lauri said:


> Ya, no time like the present to learn to be and overwintering expert and learn to _rear you own queens_.
> 
> Forget that honey harvest for a year and learn to keep those bees _*alive*_ first.


cheers to that !


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian do you remember in 2009 when grain dropped but chem and fert was sky high because of high grain prices from the previous two years? Good times. Phos was 1200 a tonne.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Yup, we refused to buy at that, but our neighbours pre bought all they could get...to sit on it while the price re adjusted!!! 
One thing farmers have is no control over anything


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

I put the minimum fert on that year. Good thing I did because I never had enough rain to dissolve the fert. that put in the ground. I cancelled all contracts with the wheat board before the October deadline and sold the grain over the next two crop years.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Lauri said:


> Ya, no time like the present to learn to be and overwintering expert and learn to _rear you own queens_.
> 
> Forget that honey harvest for a year and learn to keep those bees_* alive*_ first.



Yaah! More feeding = more bees = more honey. Forget about the honey to just focus on raising those big fat bees.
I got it now. Keep on dabbling, Lauri. I have learned a lot from you too. Thanks much.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Yup, if I hadn't learned to overwinter, and focus on healthy colonies & queen rearing first, I'd likely only have a hand full of hives right now..if any. Perhaps after loosing bees and having to buy new bees every year, I'd have given up by now.

But now, if I choose to harvest honey next year & only took 41# from each hive, I'd harvest somewhere around 5 tons of honey. Not to mention the nucs & queens I'd sell.

So yeah, in my opinion, delaying the harvest for the good of the bees- works. At least it did for me.




beepro said:


> Yaah! Forget about the honey to just focus on raising those big fat bees.


My problem is, they have done _too _well. I'll be forced to sell nucs again this spring. Bummer, huh.
I've got bees coming out my ears.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> So yeah, in my opinion, delaying the harvest for the good of the bees- works.


If you had taken a different approach I think your ROI would be positive not negative. Why couldn't you have done the same thing with 10 or 20 hives and used your skills to build equipment for sale? This would have netted you a profit from the start and I don't see where your learning curve would have changed.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yes, I think that is excellent advice for those just getting started. While I wouldn't rule out getting a honey harvest the first year or two I do think it's important to be flexible and allow the progress of your hives to be the determining factor for expansion and not some arbitrary goal of getting to X number of hives. Goals are good, just don't let them trump good beekeeping practices. One more important consideration is to tailor your operation to your locality. Check around and see what successful beekeepers in your area are doing and when they are doing it and don't be afraid to copy them, at least until you gain some experience. Some areas are better for honey production while others with early flows and long dearths may only be conducive to early season queen and nuc production and unfortunately there are some areas where even good beekeepers struggle to come up with a successful beekeeping plan. It's why migratory beekeeping is what it is.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> If you had taken a different approach I think your ROI would be positive not negative. Why couldn't you have done the same thing with 10 or 20 hives and used your skills to build equipment for sale? This would have netted you a profit from the start and I don't see where your learning curve would have changed.


And, Ace, if _*you *_had taken a _*different *_approach, what would _YOUR _learning curve look like now! :lpf:

:gh:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> If you had taken a different approach I think your ROI would be positive not negative. Why couldn't you have done the same thing with 10 or 20 hives and used your skills to build equipment for sale? This would have netted you a profit from the start and I don't see where your learning curve would have changed.


:no: Why couldn't you? The way I see it, Lauri is diametrically the opposite beekeeper, dare I think Yin/Lauri to Yang/Acebird, to Brian. Sometimes your questions, Brian, are amazingly stunning.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> And, Ace, if _*you *_had taken a _*different *_approach, what would _YOUR _learning curve look like now! :lpf:
> 
> :gh:


Inverted oh gee curve, maybe?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

It is true, I do things big & do things differently. It's just my nature. 

But by having so many colonies, I've seen patterns and issues I'd likely have never caught onto with only a handfull of hives. I could have five hives for 30 years & I'd never get the experience I've gotten in just a couple years with a larger numbers to develop, manage and maintain. 

I don't expect many people to grow so large or so fast. But even on a small scale, the welfare of the colony should always come first when ever possible. Or more than likely, you'll be buying bees in spring. That is my point.

It's just about time for those annual November threads..."My bees are DEAD!"

Questions:
"Did you check for mites?"..NO
"Were you queenright going into fall ?" I don't know
'Did you feed them?" No
"Are your genetics acclimated for your location?" I don't know, But I harvested 80# of honey 

I am not being sarcastic here. I'm Totally serious. I read these posts every year and wonder when folks will learn to do things differently. SOme folks that post here try to direct people in _*August*_ to address these issues while they have a chance to rectify them before it's too late.
But a heavy summer hive fools them every time.

It's not quite as simple as that, but that is about what it boiles down to. I see the main focus usually being on honey right from the start and not enough focus on fully understanding the colony.

I'm no expert, but this is how I see it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> :no: Why couldn't you?


Lauri has an access to a good wood supply that I don't have so I wouldn't net the profit that she can. She enjoys queen rearing, I don't. My question was hypothetical. I wouldn't expect her to change what she is doing. It is already done.
I will hazzard a guess that most beekeepers have not followed in her footsteps. Even hobbyist try to support their hobby a little at a time.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

There is as much to learn regarding honey production as any other facet of beekeeping. Assuming that a certain amount of production is a given is very short sighted thinking. It takes many seasons of keeping bees to know what areas are most beneficial to honey production. I have a good friend in Mexico who is one of the foremost queen breeders in the world and his area produces little honey. Knowing your areas potential for good beeyard locations is not as easy as one might think.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

To respond your your post Ace, Yes, I love the woodworking. But I'd never progress to making more than wages without a bee & queen labor force to bring in additional income. Once I get my hives established and quit having to keep all the equipment I make, I'll likely be fabricating specialty stuff for sale as well. Since the bees are seasonal, the fabrication projects are great for staying busy during winter. I just hope it's not quite as cold this year. It was Bitter last year.

I'll have a couple hundred queens cookin in the mating nucs to back me up so some maybe of that money will eventually stick. That way I get to use my brain as well as my Senco stapler.

I make enough now to cover my material and feed costs, but to get back to OP, it would cost me a couple thousand dollars more to buy the exact same stuff I bought last year..Even though fuel prices are lower..And equipment & parts usually go up _again_ after the first of the year. My couple bucks will not go quite as far as I had hoped. My hoarding gene ( er..my _well prepared_ gene) will be left wanting...

Slight increases here and there can bleed you dry if you're not careful.

In four years I've not taken a dime and worked way too many hours for free, but my Honeybee project has been totally self sustaining. Theres no debt. If theres not enough income there's simply no growth. But my 'free' labor has been an investment in my own skills. 

Now that I have my established colonies, I'm in the position to finally produce. I hope my 'labor investment' will pay off sometime soon. And in the long run, _Handsomely_. As I reach these bench marks, I can occasionally reevaluate my goals & my desired product(s) of choice. Lots of options when it comes to bees.

Nucs, queens, honey, woodenware.

But this is a one girl show..no employees. And only so many hours in a day.

And in my Northern short season climate, you need to be well prepared to take advantage of those all important couple weeks early summer. If _only_ June lasted longer.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Riskybizz said:


> There is as much to learn regarding honey production as any other facet of beekeeping.


One of the reasons I went with queen rearing. The science of producing honey + all the heavy labor and equipment one needs for processing was not something I would be able to do without help. Besides competing against everyone else who sells honey. I chose to go a different route that was better suited for my age and physical ability & fell into my interest for genetics.

But no matter what you do, you still need healthy bees.
NOT having to buy bees is a real money saver. Not to mention you know the history behind your bees & know _exactly_ what you are working with.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Lauri said:


> It's just about time for those annual November threads..."My bees are DEAD!"
> 
> Questions:
> "Did you check for mites?"..NO
> ...


ha ha sounds about right!

Hey Ace, I doubt your in any position to give out healthy business advice, especially related to beekeeping! lol


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

Lauri said:


> Ya For beginners, Forget that honey harvest for a year and learn to keep those bees alive.


+1
As a first year beek, I equate it to this. If you want steak and you buy a calf...you have to wait for that calf to grow up before you can "harvest" your steak. May take more than a year or two for that calf to grow to that stage. Same thing with bees and honey. IF they are still alive after a few years and that nuc has grown in size (using care, medications, feeding ect) than at some point....I just MAY have some honey. Until then I just enjoy smelling it in the hives.


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

Lauri said:


> One of the reasons I went with queen rearing. The science of producing honey + all the heavy labor and equipment one needs for processing was not something I would be able to do without help. Besides competing against everyone else who sells honey. I chose to go a different route that was better suited for my age and physical ability & fell into my interest for genetics.
> 
> But no matter what you do, you still need healthy bees.
> NOT having to buy bees is a real money saver. Not to mention you know the history behind your bees & know _exactly_ what you are working with.


 My wife is on the same thought process as you,She wants to raise bees and she does not want me to mess with her hives unless she is there.
She has no interest in taking honey from them either.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Lauri,

You have a great location as well, that is also paramount.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lauri said:


> I'm no expert, but this is how I see it.


You certainly seem to be becoming one. :thumbsup:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

In reading Beesource, I've learned what NOT to do as much as what TO do. Maybe even more. 

My previous statement about the annual November threads sounds harsh & I don't mean it to be. But it is the truth. And when I started, I took note of the repeated failures and took them seriously.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> You certainly seem to be becoming one. :thumbsup:


Just trying to do my best Mark. I look forward to the next 20 years of further enlightenment.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

green2btree said:


> Lauri, I don't know how you are doing your corners on boxes, but if you do box joints, a jig is wonderful. I asked for an Incra jig for Christmas (I am also female, and my Christmas lists always crack the family up - chainsaws, Ultrabreeze suit, doublecut saw... no jewelry for this gal.) and I love it.


Thanks! Looks like a great thing to have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oP-FnHfo9o


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lauri said:


> ...well that's what has made me a bit grumpy & my loyalty is starting to wane.
> (I was already a bit grumpy from dealing with USPS..but that is another thread)


 Some of us are naturally grump and others have to find a reason.:lookout::gh:


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Lauri, 

Your thread has wandered a bit so I'm hoping you won't mind if i ask a question of you, not about the price of woodenware, but rather, about where you do your reading, besides Beesource, Randy Oliver and the usual places. 

You have mastered more in a few years than most of us have mastered in decades. Grasping the things you do must have been a result of quite a bit of reading.....in the right places. Particular interest areas for me include nutrition, hive management & queen rearing. Would you mind cluing us in on those 'other' founts of information please? Inquiring minds want to know! TIA


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

Some good reading. I am specially interested in the coming year when Lauri is NOT making increase and all of those hives decide its time to SWARM... Not that I doubt her MAD skill in any way, but it sure does make for fun reading!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

SS1 said:


> Some good reading. I am specially interested in the coming year when Lauri is NOT making increase and all of those hives decide its time to SWARM... Not that I doubt her MAD skill in any way, but it sure does make for fun reading!


Pushing the carrying capacity of an area helps.

I should clarify. I may not make _personal_ increases. That doesn't include making up & selling nucs. I'll make simulated swarms with all my larger established hives and take the remainder with a new queen up to the mountains for production hives. 

By the way, that's part of my method of staying treatment 'reduced'. I'm not 100% treatment free, but a large percentage of my hives are due to annual brood breaks. Even with an older queen, a simulated swarm gives them a fresh start every spring. It's like a new package with 10# of highly motivated bees and an awsome proven queen. With my line VSH Carniolan genetics, theres no mite issues for the remainder of the year & no swarming issues even though they rebuild the hive in a flash.

I have a lot of little tricks to keep mite populations down naturally, but it takes specific timing and management. No powdered sugar, no small cell, nothing like that. That's another thread for a topic that is generally so controversial I try to stay away from joining in. I'm not against treating, I have in the past, I just don't need to very often now.

I've never seen anyone do the 'Fly back' or simulated swarms quite like I do them. But I'm sure it has been done before. 

In any very large overwintered hives I've left totally in tact for the production of early drones for mating, I'll do some specific checkerboarding around February. That's where those lightly drawn frames come in handy, as well as those partial foundation frames with the drawn & filled center, but the sides cut out. Lures them right up & gives them lots of room but never totally takes away feed from directly above the broodnest.










Below February/March photo:










I was tempted to leave this colony in tact this spring, but finally chickened out & broke it up. The number of bees in the simulated swarm was _Immense_. I forget how many nucs I got out of the deal.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Lburou said:


> Lauri,
> 
> Your thread has wandered a bit so I'm hoping you won't mind if i ask a question of you, not about the price of woodenware, but rather, about where you do your reading, besides Beesource)




Thanks Lee-Geez, don't give me too much credit.
I'll get back to this question tonight when I have more timeto look up and post some links. Unfortunatly a couple of the best educational German videos are no longer avaiable. But I'll tell you some details about the rest.

Here is one of the videos, but you'd better watch it now before it is removed from youtube for copyright infringement. They had several videos that continued the progress after this first one, including queen rearing, but they were removed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px3agh67_xI


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Lauri,
Another slightly off track post for this thread, but I for one sure would like to read/see more about this 'promised' information :thumbsup:



Lauri said:


> I call it 'Freshening' or a 'Fly Back simulated swarm'...
> 
> There are several tips for this method I need to add to the instructions for you to get the best results, depending on the time of year you do it. No time right now though to write more.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> But this is a one girl show..no employees. And only so many hours in a day.


I know where the one person show comes from but in my later years I learned you can pretty easily make a living with the one person show when you are a skilled craftsman. But if you look around it is not the skilled craftsman making wealth. It is the person who manages employees. That is where the real wealth is.


> the fabrication projects are great for staying busy during winter. I just hope it's not quite as cold this year. It was Bitter last year.


Lauri, it is bad for your health to work in cold conditions. Why in the heck are you not heating your shop? You must have tons of scrap wood you can burn.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

The government says we don't have inflation.

My SS will increase 1.7% this year

The NC Insurance commission is considering a request for a 41% increase in homeowner's insurance rates.

Hell yeah, I'm grumpy.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Fishman43 said:


> Lauri,
> Another slightly off track post for this thread, but I for one sure would like to read/see more about this 'promised' information :thumbsup:


Where was that thread? I've lost track of it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Its from post #17 of the linked thread.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?303881-Spring-Split-Last-light-or-Midday&p=1168911

.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks Graham! :thumbsup:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

In reaction to the title of this thread, and nothing more....

I remember when honey was $.50/lb. I remember when package bees cost $10.50 and queens cost $7. Single story colonies were $55.

So now packages are $100 and queens are $30, but how much are you getting for your honey?? 

I realize what you're all saying about expenses for everything going up, and Lauri is right about making your own equipment. I can't imagine trying to expand an apiary with the cost of equipment from the supply houses. But, count yourself lucky if you're getting $5 or $10 a pound for honey. We never did when I started keeping bees.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> In reaction to the title of this thread, and nothing more....
> 
> I remember when honey was $.50/lb. I remember when package bees cost $10.50 and queens cost $7. Single story colonies were $55.
> 
> ...


Would you agree that generally through the years that either a spring queen or a pound of bees has equated to the value of 10 lbs. of honey? My experience is that those values haven't strayed too far. Of course I am talking wholesale pricing for larger quantities.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Laurie

Dont let the task of honey production, extraction and bottling seen like such a daunting endeavor. Look at it this way; you've got the bees and the bees do all the collection on their own. Don't just keep that Ferrari parked in the barn. Gotta take it for a spin sooner or later.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> Would you agree that generally through the years that either a spring queen or a pound of bees has equated to the value of 10 lbs. of honey? My experience is that those values haven't strayed too far. Of course I am talking wholesale pricing for larger quantities.


Yep, which was my point.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks Graham.

What I wanted to describe for those Fly Back Swarms was also how to do them_ After_ the main flow. The advantages, what you can expect and what to look out for. Its pretty detailed so it will take me a bit to write it out.


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## linn (Nov 19, 2010)

I quoted a start-up price for a double deep new hive with a package of bees to be about $300.00. Do you think this is accurate?


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

Lauri said:


> Pushing the carrying capacity of an area helps.
> 
> I should clarify. I may not make _personal_ increases. That doesn't include making up & selling nucs. I'll make simulated swarms with all my larger established hives and take the remainder with a new queen up to the mountains for production hives.
> 
> ...




That is a good sized hive right there.
Tried uploading pics but it just says upload failed each time... Anyhow.. If you have posted how you do them let me know, I will look it up.. if not, let me know when you do post it. I do light spring splits by moving the old queen and giving them back a cell. Not as long a break as raising their own new queen but a little more comforting in that I know they HAVE a new queen in there of my own choosing.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Lauri said:


> By the way, that's part of my method of staying treatment 'reduced'. I'm not 100% treatment free, but a large percentage of my hives are due to annual brood breaks. Even with an older queen, a simulated swarm gives them a fresh start every spring. It's like a new package with 10# of highly motivated bees and an awsome proven queen. With my line VSH Carniolan genetics, theres no mite issues for the remainder of the year & no swarming issues even though they rebuild the hive in a flash.


What kind of treatments do you use?

My experience is that making rapid increase with new equipment, like you have done, is very effective masking varroa issues to the background.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Tried uploading pics but it just says upload failed each time ....

The most likely problem is that your images are too big. Photo upload will fail if the images exceed 800x800 pixels, or the file size exceeds 195Kb. Resize your images to be within those limits.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > Tried uploading pics but it just says upload failed each time ....
> 
> Resize your images to be within those limits.


Or link them to a photo hosting site and not have to worry about getting the sizing just right.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Juhani Lunden said:


> What kind of treatments do you use?


When I have a established colony that has not had a brood break of any kind for a year or two and there's no time left for a brood break, I use Apivar if I think it's necessary. 

I agree, I have no doubt it's the rapid increases and broodbreaks resulting from my queen rearing opperation that have an impact on controling the mites here. I also have a broodless period in winter. I'm also pretty secluded and have no exposure to other apiaries. No re-infestation from outside sources.

But what surprises me is the 2 & 3 year old established colonies I do break up are_ very _clean. Which leads me to have more faith in my VSH genetics and overall health and vigor of my bees.
It's difficult to pinpoint the exact cause of the success I've enjoyed. It's likely it's the combination of many things. But every year that goes by, I give more & more credit to having good bees.
Especially when I collect swarms and bring in new queens to try and see how absolutly worthless they are, when managed exactly the same way as my current stock.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Or link them to a photo hosting site and not have to worry about getting the sizing just right.


Ace's advice is _incomplete_.

If your photo host resizes your photos to comply with the Beesource photo rules, great. However, as far as I can tell, image size posting rules apply _equally _no matter whether your photo is stored at Beesource or an offsite host.

Click to read the _Image Posting Rules_ Barry posted.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Lauri said:


> But every year that goes by, I give more & more credit to having good bees.
> Especially when I collect swarms and bring in new queens to try and see how absolutly worthless they are, when managed exactly the same way as my current stock.


I have precisely the same experience.

I´d love to get some queens from you.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Ace's advice is _incomplete_.


Rader I have been doing this for three years now. If you link to the photo it can be any size it is when you embed the photo to beesource that is when it has to follow the protocol.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Rader I have been doing this for three years now.


And what have you learned in that time? :scratch:



Acebird said:


> If you link to the photo it can be any size it is when you embed the photo to beesource that is when it has to follow the protocol.


Here is how it works, Ace: _Barry _owns the Beesource.com site. _Barry _gets to set the rules. Follow the rules, or risk getting your posts _deleted _- or _worse_. :lookout:

Here is that _Image Posting Rules_ link again:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ting-Rules&p=392149&highlight=host#post392149

The same image size limits apply no matter where your photo is hosted. 

:gh:

.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> Especially when I collect swarms and bring in new queens to try and see how absolutly worthless they are, when managed exactly the same way as my current stock.


If this is the case you should be careful about the word success because the genetics around you will eventually show up. The only way to prevent that is to import more than 80% of the genetics.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The same image size limits apply no matter where your photo is hosted.
> 
> :gh:


OMG Barry has no control over photo hosting sites and I am sure he doesn't want to. If you go to that photo hosting site (by way of link provided) it doesn't affect anything on Beesource


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

It must be wine o'clock.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Ace, does your *ESP *now extend to channeling _Barry_? :lpf:


Do you think _Barry _has difficulty writing what he actually meant? :scratch:

Maybe the 3rd time is the charm ... here is that _Image Rules_ link again ...
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ting-Rules&p=392149&highlight=host#post392149


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe you should read this three times. It might help.


> Members can host their images at a third party location like http://imageshack.us/, http://photobucket.com/, http://www.picnik.com/ or http://www.flickr.com/ and link them to their post


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> They say Americans are getting grumpy about the never ending rising prices ...

And then there are those that are grumpy about the _method_ of paying for the shipping costs of their newly purchased equipment ... 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ng-Rant-(Beekeeping-Equipment-Big-Box-Stores)

:lookout:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's the real change.

With all the bee equipment prices rising, shipping costs ever rising, (Whether it's included or not) It's starting to open the door for small business to get back into the market.

Previously, I wouldn't be able to compete with a big company like Mann Lake if I wanted to fabricate and sell bee equipment. But as their prices continue to climb, not only year after year, but several times a year.. Their increases are starting to close that gap. 

Add to that, specializing in slightly custom equipment and you may just have a local market that actually can compete.

By custom, I mean a better quality lid, bottom board, etc. 
For instance here's a bottom board I make I really like. Solid/screened hybrid.
Good controllable ventilation without being too drafty, great wintertime drainage, The advantages of a solid bottom board. 

I've used these, or versions of them, for 2 years through all the seasons so all the bugs are worked out and they perform very well. 
I will be making them soon for local sales.










Here's one with a screened landing area for wet climates.



















This year, I plan to _combine_ the two designs of the screened landing area and inner partial screen. 3" in +3" out










These are all early versions of the bottom boards.
Ya, Ace..I know what you're going to say. I'm not planing to start a business making equipment so I don't care if others make the same design. I service my local market only when it comes to stuff like this...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What's the idea behind this bottom board? Why the screened landing board? How do bees "like" it?


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

The bottom board would certainly work well for keeping water out of my hives that aren't quite level/tipped forward.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lauri said:


>


I know you didn't build this for selling, but that upper right hand corner caught my eye. You can do better than that.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> How do bees "like" it?


From the picture below, it looks like the majority of the bees are avoiding it!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> I know you didn't build this for selling, but that upper right hand corner caught my eye. You can do better than that.


Budget deeps my friend. I'm just the assembling monkey


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

BeeCurious said:


> From the picture below, it looks like the majority of the bees are avoiding it!


No, It's just a cold morning & I just stuck in the poor mans mouse guard

I usually don't use a landing board at all, but those bigger highly populated hives _do benefit_ having one during the flow. Even if I run the entrance wide open, they still pile up a bit










The smaller colonies manage without a landing board, but would they bring in more honey with one? 

European beekeepers make such an effort to provide such elaborate ones, I would say the answer it probably yes.

This photo shows my bottom board when cut flush with the hive. WIth all the rain I have I need ether no landing or a screened area or the bottom board will just rot & draw in water.


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

Love that bottom right box paint job.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

rweaver7777 said:


> Love that bottom right box paint job.



Vinyl stickers and metal signs from Amazon.com help out even the most seriously challenged 'artist'.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> Ya, Ace..I know what you're going to say.


Just grinning Lauri, not going to say a word.


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