# PH levels in hive?



## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

I was just reading Randy Olivers web site about pollen subs, and was reminded of a question that still persists for me. 

PH levels in the hive, or better in different areas of the hive, ie honey, pollen, bee bread brood etc

How to measure, what ranges are good/bad and why.

How or does feeding pollen sub or syrup with diffrent ph levels change or control the ph levels in the hive?

The larger question is how important is this as a management tool for our current industry.

Has anyone tested pollen sub with low or high ph levels on large samples of hives and have any correlation or observations been made?

Thanks for the insights in advance


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Does anybody really do that, measure pH levels in their hives? Talk about micro managing. Who has the time?


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

Do you have any better ideas?

Our industry is rapidly changing and those who learn & adapt will porosper

I have found that we are consistantly lossing 30 to 40 % of hives each year and I do not like it.

Larry


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Who has the time?*

If I gave you the proven data, would you be interested.
Ernie


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If there is something to this idea, then its worth looking at. Who knows.

Honestly I never hear of this before,


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

LSPender said:


> Do you have any better ideas?
> 
> Our industry is rapidly changing and those who learn & adapt will porosper
> 
> ...


Larry, I am the person who's been doing the test"s for a while now. We have been losing 5-7% loss rate over the winter for the past ten years or so.

Your post "topic" is a good one.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sugar syrup has a much higher pH (6.0) than Honey (3.2 to 4.5) (Sugar is more alkali)

This affects the reproductive capability of virtually every brood disease in bees plus Nosema. They all reproduce better at pH 6.0 than at 4.5.

Try a search on any brood disease or Nosema apis or cerana and "culture" you'll find what pH they use to culture these. e.g. "AFB pH culture" as search terms in google and see what you can find. Here's an example:

"Lower pH values (equivalent to those found in honey, pollen, and brood food) drastically reduced enlargement and germ-tube production. Ascosphaera apis appears to be a pathogen highly specialized for life in honeybee larvae."--Author. Dept. Biological Sci., Plymouth Polytechnic, Drake Circus, Plymouth PL4 8AA, Devon, UK. Library code: Bb. Language: En. Apicultural Abstracts from IBRA: 4101024 

The other 8,000 microorganisms that live in the are also affect by changes in pH. Using sugar syrup disrupts the ecological balance of they hive by disrupting the pH of the food in the hive and the food in the bees’ gut.

"It is well known that improper diet makes one susceptible to disease. Now is it not reasonable to believe that extensive feeding of sugar to bees makes them more susceptible to American Foul Brood and other bee disease? It is known that American Foul Brood is more prevalent in the north than in the south. Why? Is it not because more sugar is fed to bees in the north while here in the south the bees can gather nectar most of the year which makes feeding sugar syrup unnecessary?"--Better Queens, Jay Smith 

This was just an observation on his part, but we know that AFB reproduces better at 6.0 than 4.5.

All of this, of course, is ignoring the nutrition of honey and it's also ignoring the opposite roller coaster of putting formic acid or oxalic acid in the hive and shifting it dramatically the other direction and killing even more beneficial microorganisms.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

MB, very good post 

We are right now trying to find what is the best path to take in regards to PH, it's easy to lower but where is the sweet spot?

In pollen, it come in at 7% to the hive, but lactates in the comb at 3.5-4%.

Anyhow nice to see some good thoughts on this SUBject.


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

Keith Jarrett said:


> MB, very good post
> 
> In pollen, it come in at 7% to the hive, but lactates in the comb at 3.5-4%.
> 
> Keith, what function changes the Ph of the pollen?


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

*how to test*

Keith what or how do you test the ph levels?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Regarding pH levels, the comparison between sugar syrup and honey doesn’t seem proper. Shouldn’t it be sugar syrup to nectar? I assumed…maybe incorrectly…that most nectars were close to neutral since many, if not most plants thrive in nearly neutral soils. The lowering of pH was a product of the enzymes and other additions made in the bees’ honey stomachs. Was I wrong in my assumption?
If I’m correct, then the pH of sugar syrup is only a factor if the bees are consuming it directly rather than converting it to ‘honey’. Does anyone know what the pH of sugar ‘honey’ might be? 
The hazard, to my way of thinking, of using sugar syrup in a hive is if it remains sugar syrup long enough for the various bacteria to colonize it before it’s consumed. 
I suppose one answer would be to feed them syrup early enough in the season (Fall) for them to store it as reduced pH honey.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*most plants thrive in nearly neutral soils*

Generally speaking:
Eastern soils are acidic and western soils are alkaline because of the major difference in precipitation.
Ernie


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

BEES4U said:


> Generally speaking:
> Eastern soils are acidic and western soils are alkaline because of the major difference in precipitation.
> Ernie


I think that those sterotypical alkaline/acid differences on either side of PH neutral (pH 7) is generally relatively small. Soils with pH as low as that of honey would support only the most acid tolerant plants. My main point is that I believe that the pH of nectar (or syrup) is reduced by its processing by the bees. Am I wrong?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*pH explained*

Ph expained:
http://www.rhtubs.com/pH.htm
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*My main point is*

I can do a pH test on sugar syrup to just check it out.
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*pH posting on Beesource.com*

Interesting:
I ran a web search on the pH of sugar syrup.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-206381.html
Ernie


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Using sugar syrup disrupts the ecological balance of they hive by disrupting the pH of the food in the hive and the food in the bees’ gut.

>>All of this, of course, is ignoring the nutrition of honey and it's also ignoring the opposite roller coaster of putting formic acid or oxalic acid in the hive and shifting it dramatically the other direction and killing even more beneficial microorganisms. 


Wow, there is way more than meets the eye here,


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Once again...just so I'm clear on what's being suggested here. Its the consensus of the posters that it is important that the pH of syrup be close to that of honey. 
Why would it be important to make syrup such a low pH when nectar (natural syrup equivalent) probably isn't low?
Am I confused here? Or am I confusing others? Or....does anyone understand my point?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ian;403329
Wow said:


> STOP !! we have a winner.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

LSPender said:


> Keith what or how do you test the ph levels?


Larry, your first question, Lactic Acid fermentation process.

Second question,I send my sample to the lab to get such things as ,fat ,protein,PH, ash, ect...

lots to know here,I feel we as a group know very little.


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## samak (Sep 15, 2006)

"Regarding pH levels, the comparison between sugar syrup and honey doesn’t seem proper. Shouldn’t it be sugar syrup to nectar? I assumed…maybe incorrectly…that most nectars were close to neutral since many, if not most plants thrive in nearly neutral soils. The lowering of pH was a product of the enzymes and other additions made in the bees’ honey stomachs. Was I wrong in my assumption?" (beemandan)

This is a good question. What is it that causes the low PH of honey? Is it caused by the enzymes from the bees' honey stomachs? Or is some nectar naturally in the lower PH range? Also, will the PH of sugar syrup become lower after the bees make honey from it?

As for the PH of sugar syrup, I made a 2:1 and found the PH to be this:
PH of sugar syrup (2:1 sugar water): 6.10
Distilled water was used.


you can use an electronic PH meter such as the one on here: 
http://envcoglobal.com/catalog/product/extech-pocket-meters/exstik-ph-110-refillable-ph-meter.html
http://www.ambientweather.com/exphwareexph.html


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Once again...just so I'm clear on what's being suggested here. Its the consensus of the posters that it is important that the pH of syrup be close to that of honey.

I am simply pointing out that one of the differences between sugar syrup and honey is the pH. There are many more. If you made the pH of syrup closer to that of honey that would be one less difference.

>Why would it be important to make syrup such a low pH when nectar (natural syrup equivalent) probably isn't low?

What do you think it "probably" is? My guess is that it IS that low, but I only have available data on honey.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> I am simply pointing out that one of the differences between sugar syrup and honey is the pH. There are many more. If you made the pH of syrup closer to that of honey that would be one less difference.


Michael Bush....I'm not arguing with you here. We may not see eye to eye on a number of things but that isn't necessarily the case here. I expect that nectar is much closer to pH neutral than honey. I, too, am only guessing based on what I know of plant physiology. My concern is that I wonder how many potentially problematic solutions beekeepers might find to try to make syrup unnaturally acidic and therefore similar to honey…when it may not be a honey substitute but really a nectar substitute.



Michael Bush said:


> >Why would it be important to make syrup such a low pH when nectar (natural syrup equivalent) probably isn't low?
> 
> What do you think it "probably" is? My guess is that it IS that low, but I only have available data on honey.


I studied horticulture. I don’t think for a moment that I know everything there is to know about plants, but what I do know doesn’t suggest that they make such a radical change in the pH of the fluids that pass through them. 
What makes you think it is?

Again, I’m just wondering if we aren’t making the wrong comparison here. Shouldn’t it be syrup to nectar?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

if we can not compare the Ph of syrup to nectar, at least we could easily compare the Ph of "syrup" after it is in the comb, to honey. I propose someone take a package, install them on foundation or starter strips(which ever rocks your boat), and feed them a syrup(sucrose) of a known Ph. After a brief period, the "syrup" could be removed and sampled for Ph. Obviously, there could not be any flowers blooming during this time period(or a screened entrance would work). The other variable is sugar concentration. A concentration representative of the "best' local source would be a starting point.

Sounds like a job for Randy Oliver, (all respect intended).

Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

LSPender said:


> Do you have any better ideas?
> 
> Our industry is rapidly changing and those who learn & adapt will porosper
> 
> ...


Loosing them from improper pH levels? Is that what you are trying to address w/ this thread?

Any better ideas? About what? If you mean the control of pH levels in bee hives I don't worry about it. Maybe that is my ignorant bliss, but I have other things that I can "control" more easily and I never heard that pH was something that had to be controled. 

How do unmanaged colonies control their pH levels?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BEES4U said:


> If I gave you the proven data, would you be interested.
> Ernie


Proven data about what?

In my opinion, as beekeepers, there are lots and lots of things that we can worry about. And every so often there is something new that we never had to worry about before, such as tacheal mites, varroa mites, nosema cerana, etc. But somehow we survive these crisees. If you survive enough of them you get to a point in your life that when another one comes along you just say to yourself, "Yup, been there done that. What else is new?", and go on doing what you can.

Keep your bees!!

I have enough to do keeping my colonies alive w/out checking each and every one of them for pH levels. What can you do about it anyway, economically speaking?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> How do unmanaged colonies control their pH levels?


Unmanaged colonies aren't feed pollen sub, as to lowering the ph pretty simple lemon juice or citric acid to the mix.

The point being where is the sweet spot?

When I sent out samples to the lab of all thoses pollen sub they came back all over the board, who has the right receipe, I HAVE NO IDEA.

Protein & fat levels are over the board, all I know is that my loss rates have been low and the bees look good in January, so is my sub on target? I wish I knew.

So much more to know. 

Larry, thanks for bringing up this topic.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Does anybody really do that, measure pH levels in their hives? Talk about micro managing. Who has the time?


when you put sugar syrup, hfcs, organic acids, pollen subs, etc that have different ph levels than nectar, honey, pollen, and water, than micromanaging the ph levels in the hive is EXACTLY what you are doing...even if you choose not to measure the results.

deknow


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I have enough to do keeping my colonies alive w/out checking each and every one of them for pH levels. What can you do about it anyway, economically speaking? 


If one beekeeper figures the these kind of measures is a waste of time, then pass it by,
otherwise whats the harm in discussing it?

>>How do unmanaged colonies control their pH levels? 

I think what is being implyed is perhaps the treatments and or feed we supply to the hives is creating a ph problem, and perhaps its aiding in the growth and development of some diseases,


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How do unmanaged colonies control their pH levels? 

Their levels are what the nectar and pollen plus the fermentation of the pollen make it. Which is not at all what our syrup and pollen substitutes are.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >How do unmanaged colonies control their pH levels?
> 
> Their levels are what the nectar and pollen plus the fermentation of the pollen make it. Which is not at all what our syrup and pollen substitutes are.


I would word this a little differently.
Their levels are what nectar, pollen and the effects of the bees enzymes on those. Which *may* not result in the same pH levels as what are created when processing our syrup and pollen subs.


We're not on opposite poles on this.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I agree with your wording. As worded, it would be another "possibly" useful test to perform.

Roland


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

*Ph levels*

All these answers are good and heading in a good direction,thank you.

The basis for this question is to find better managemnt methods, to profit from my business.

If my understanding is correct, some pathogens thrive in different environments, ie Ph levels in the hive. Finding the sweet spot that works would be huge to control the hive and give the bees the best chance for survival.

Larry


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> as to lowering the ph pretty simple lemon juice or citric acid to the mix.


Ok Michael Bush...do you see my point now? We've got beekeepers contemplating various sorts of 'home remedies' to lower the pH of their supplemental feeds. We have no idea how lemon juice or citric acid (or any other pH lowering additive), used in a beekeeper's concoction will impact their bees...short or long term. And worse yet we haven't even determined if those feeds need their pH lowered...at least not in my opinion.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Ok Michael Bush...do you see my point now? We've got beekeepers contemplating various sorts of 'home remedies' to lower the pH of their supplemental feeds. We have no idea how lemon juice or citric acid (or any other pH lowering additive), used in a beekeeper's concoction will impact their bees...short or long term. And worse yet we haven't even determined if those feeds need their pH lowered...at least not in my opinion.


NO, I don't see your point.

Been doing this for twenty years with NO side effects! Oh, yeah I do have some of that CCD problem, my winter loss rates won't get above 5% and I don't know what to do about it.

What I do know is bee pollen come in at XYZ from the lab , then I try to match that profile with my pollen sub formula.


Many good post here,


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> NO, I don't see your point.


Don't take it personally. Its not about your specific ingredients. They may or may not be benign. I have no way of knowing.
My point is that beekeepers may come up with any number of 'mixes' to solve...what may not even be a problem. And in the course of that unnecessary solution they may create new and different problems.
Does that make sense?


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

The law of unintended consiquenses. (Just like stuff coming out of congress for many years)


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

LSPender said:


> The law of unintended consiquenses.


It seems to me that we are all too often our own worst enemies.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Does that make sense?


Well sure it does.

But, when I have a track record of over a decade with no problems it seems to me that we/I are on to something.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> But, when I have a track record of over a decade with no problems it seems to me that we/I are on to something.


Now I'm curious, Keith. Having read a number of your posts it appears that pollen subs are your specialty. You've been at it over 10 years. Do you add lemon juice or citric acid to those subs? If so, why? What piece of information convinced you, over 10 years ago, that you needed these additives?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

beemandan said:


> What piece of information convinced you, over 10 years ago, that you needed these additives?


Well Beemandan, I'm, as we speak looking at a sample profiles of my bee pollen dated 4-95.

What I've been doing for the past ten plus years is.... Trying to match what natural bee pollen is, ie, in the lab profiles. 

Take "ash" , bee pollen avg at 2.46 so does that mean we should have sub made at that level ? I don't have the answer to that, but I wish I did.

What I do is I have different pollen sub's go on my bees and I look to see if there are any major changes over winter and spring. Now does this prove that I'm on the right track, no of coure not, but I have done some things that have shown MAJOR changes in the hive.

SO, to make short story long, I think this topic has legs.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Ok Michael Bush...do you see my point now?

I do.

> We've got beekeepers contemplating various sorts of 'home remedies' to lower the pH of their supplemental feeds. We have no idea how lemon juice or citric acid (or any other pH lowering additive), used in a beekeeper's concoction will impact their bees...short or long term.

I agree.

>And worse yet we haven't even determined if those feeds need their pH lowered...at least not in my opinion.

I agree. My point really is that by using syrup and artificial feeds and organic acids we create a roller coaster of pH and mess up the entire microflora and microfauna of the hive. I don't think just lowering the pH of syrup will make it as nutritious as honey... but I think ONE of the problems with syrup is the pH.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Words are words. Reality is reality. Guys like Keith go by results. So do I.

Empirical tests have proiven time and again that bees fed 'artificial' diets do better than bees that are left to their own devices when the pickings are slim. As for disease, bees that are well fed show a whole lot less disease and pest damage than bees which are not supplemented in my experience.

Can these diets be improved? Of course, but even after extensive research, only slight improvements have been found. To me that says they are pretty good as they are.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

allend said:


> Empirical tests have proiven time and again that bees fed 'artificial' diets do better than bees that are left to their own devices when the pickings are slim.


*when the pickings are slim*
It’d be hard to argue that starvation is better for bees than feeding syrup and subs.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> It’d be hard to argue that starvation is better for bees than feeding syrup and subs.


You got it. The thing is that it is hard to know in advance when that will be. After the disaster, predictions are easier, but then it is too late, and recovery from a failure takes a long time and costs a lot, too.

With monoculture, engineered crops, weed sprays removing a lot of bee forage in crops and fence lines and ditches, there is a lot less out there for bees. Add to that the seasonal dearths that occur most places and the bees can be stressed.

Feeding is insurance. If the bees don't need it, they won't take it, but they almost always do. That tells me something.

In an ideal world we would not have to feed, but for those of us dependant on our bees surviving and thriving, who wants to take a chance?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, ignorant on this subject as I am I have a question which may have been answered somewhere else. If so, sorry for being out of the loop or for having my head in the sand, however it looks.

Has pH been looked at as a possible cause of CCD? Or a contributing factor?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

As Allen pointed out, in a perfect world those supplements wouldn't be necessary. I think its equally apparent that diverse natural sources of pollen and nectar are the best thing for bees. But...it aint a perfect world. 
All of my thoughts expressed on this thread are in regards to whether or not beekeepers need to adjust the pH of their supplements.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

> Has pH been looked at as a possible cause of CCD? Or a contributing factor?


I'm not sure how it could be. pH is simply a measure of the acidity of chemicals, and, yes, everything you can touch and feel is a chemical. pH measures the acidity, but there are other factors, too, like reactivity.

Everything in the hive and outside has a unique pH, and the pH can be changed by combining items, adding enzymes, fermentation, oxidation, etc. etc. etc.

If the question is whether the pH of some specific thing like nectar or pollen or feeds or drugs or the boxes the hive is made of causes CCD, the question is so general and impossible as to be meaningless.

Bees have dealt with items of varying pH since antiquity.

If we are talking about feeds, then we have to assume that the bees know best. If they consume a feed when they do not have to, they must find it manageable. 

If adjusting the pH results in more or less consumption, then maybe that means something. Maybe it does not, though, since kids eat candy and we think that candy is not the best choice of foods.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So were my reactions to the earliest posts way out of line as reactions to them seem to imply? I thought that the Thread was about controling "Hive pH" and that is why my replies were what they were. But apparently this Thread is a discussion of the pH of bee feed, right?

So, what is the optimum, the best, pH of syrup and or pollen substitute? Is the answer the same for each? How is the answer determined?

Thanks for your patience.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

allend said:


> If we are talking about feeds, then we have to assume that the bees know best. If they consume a feed when they do not have to, they must find it manageable.


I'm not sure how generally you mean this statement....but I'd suggest that when bees consume pesticides, for example, they appear to fail this test.
I usually cringe when folks make the statement that the bees know best. Maybe when they existed in the wild without exposure to humans....but surely not in our atificially created nests and agricultural environment.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

If you are going to quote me, please also quote the qualification I made. 

No matter. We are in agreement. As for pesticides, they are deliberately contrived to be insideous and we cannot expect bees to detect them, although sometimes they can. I would consider them to be exceptions, as I would some salts and trace minerals, which is why I do not advocate lacing feeds with such chemicals.

Proteins, vitamins, lipids and other normal constituents of foods are different IMO. Do the bees know if they are getting too much or too little? I don't know.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

beemandan said:


> *when the pickings are slim*
> It’d be hard to argue that starvation is better for bees than feeding syrup and subs.


exactly correct!

in a pinch, a few $1 burgers from mcdonalds are fine if you are on the road, because they are cheap and redily available. this is, however, a lously primary diet for inner city children (and adults)...we all know this.

so, feeding a starving colony a subpar diet is better than having them starve...but why use the subpar diet?

do we feed bees sugar/hfcs/brewers yeast/eggwhites/potato flakes/etc because we think it is better? more nutritious for the bees? no, we use these feeds because they are cheaper and easier to obtain than trapped pollen and honey.

if we thought that sugar syrup was equivilent to honey, we would be spreading that stuff on toast for breakfast. no one that can afford honey will do such a thing (well, i'm sure some will...some people are turned off by "bee barf").

deknow


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

deknow said:


> no, we use these feeds because they are cheaper and easier to obtain than trapped pollen and honey.


Well, not entirely true in my opinion. First, if I had extra pollen and honey they'd be in my hives to begin with. If my bees needed feeding I'd probably avoid buying pollen and honey, in part, because of the liklihood of introducing some pestilence. Considering what I've seen in some commercial beeyards...
Don't everyone get in a snit....I said some...not all.


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## samak (Sep 15, 2006)

I heard a long time beekeeper say that adding a bit of apple cider vinegar to your sugar syrup will help decrease nosema. 
I also heard of adding crushed vitamin C tablets to pollen substitutes, supposedly the bees like it better like that and use it up more readily.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Samak, Check out this study that showed acidifying syrup had no effect on nosema:http://www.apimondia.org/apiacta/slovenia/en/forsgren.pdf


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Ok Michael Bush...do you see my point now? We've got beekeepers contemplating various sorts of 'home remedies' to lower the pH of their supplemental feeds. We have no idea how lemon juice or citric acid (or any other pH lowering additive), used in a beekeeper's concoction will impact their bees...short or long term..


Yes, we do know the impact.

Dan, your implied statement speaks for itself.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Check out this study that showed acidifying syrup had no effect on nosema*

Loggermike:
Thank you for the very good information!
So, now we can use Vitamin C as a syrup preservative which I am sure is a lot better for the bees than bleach that some people use.
Ernie


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

One thing that concerns me about adding various items to the mix is that, unless they are known to improve the health or nutrition of the bees, there may be unintended consequences.

Acids may interact with the other components and degrade or alter them. 

I suppose the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the development of the colony and long-term survival tells more than anything, but I have seen beekeepers add things to bee feed that they a.) do not know for sure are beneficial and b.) do not know at what levels the additives become toxic to the bees.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

allend said:


> I suppose the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the development of the colony and long-term survival tells more than anything.



Well said, Allen


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*I suppose the proof of the pudding is in the eating,*

Bees need Vit. C for brood rearing.
Fact or fiction.
Ernie


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

allend said:


> One thing that concerns me about adding various items to the mix is that, unless they are known to improve the health or nutrition of the bees, there may be unintended consequences.
> Acids may interact with the other components and degrade or alter them.


This is *exactly* my point. 


allend said:


> I suppose the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the development of the colony and long-term survival tells more than anything, but I have seen beekeepers add things to bee feed that they a.) do not know for sure are beneficial and b.) do not know at what levels the additives become toxic to the bees.


 There may be ‘proof in the pudding’ but do we just randomly feed them stuff to see what kills them and what makes them thrive?



Keith Jarrett said:


> Yes, we do know the impact.
> Dan, your implied statement speaks for itself.


Ok, let me rephrase my sentence. ‘I have no idea how lemon juice or citric acid (or any other pH lowering additive), used in a beekeeper's concoction will impact their bees...short or long term.’
So, Keith, what is the impact. And how do we know it?
And, Keith, what is it that you think I implied?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well..Well....

Don't want to get hit by the cross fire here. LOL

But does this make any since to you all 

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2832.jpg

That was in the middle of January of this year.

I know were still loosing 3-5% over winter, dang were just going to have live with it. 

I know, I don't know what I'm putting in these hives to make them look so lethargic, maybe it's just luck.

OK... I'm under the bus.... leter rip. lol


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

*so what they dieing from*

........overcrowding


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I just finished reading the previous posts on this thread and find the discussion interesting. It seems to me, though, that it is much more complicated than just pH. If you use pH as a measure of acidity it may be very misleading. Since pH is a measure of free H+ ions it doesn't really tell you very much about how much of a weak acid is present. As an example, if you take a strong citric acid solution and add a few drops of concentrated HCl to it the pH won't change. If you add the same amount of HCl to water the pH drops drastically (this is why people measure titratable acidity). Same goes for pollen and sugar. Both pollen and sugar will have their own buffering capacities that will resist changes in pH. So how much organic acid should one add to reach a target pH? With table sugar, I imagine acid hydrolysis of the sugar over time will cause pH changes over time (Also temperature dependent). If the proteins in pollen break down over time the amino acids and peptides produced could effect pH. What about oxidation and reduction of carbohydrates and proteins as well as free radical formation? How about the effects of temperature on pH? 
I don't have any value judgments or any expertise regarding bee nutrition so my comments are only directed at concepts.


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks for expanding the topic from simple pH and outlining some of the many considerations that go beyond that simple measure.

One interesting thought along that line is that adding acids to sugars results in HMF, according to what I have heard. HMF is bad for bees. 

Some people will not use HFCS in patties because they are worried about HMF, and maybe some other things. My thinking is that so little is HFCS would be onsumed from that source compared to total carbohydrate diet that any amount of HMF in HFCS would be negligible.

Nonetheless, some avoid HFCS for protein supplement making and use sugar instead -- then add acids to the mix!


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## gingerbee (Jul 22, 2006)

loggermike said:


> Samak, Check out this study that showed acidifying syrup had no effect on nosema:http://www.apimondia.org/apiacta/slovenia/en/forsgren.pdf


Thanks for sharing this study. As a beginner beekeeper I am just learning and would rather manage my bees based on sceince rather than suggestion/opinion. There's just too much room for error otherwise.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Although this study does not talk about ph specifically, it is entirely possible (dare i say probable?) that ph is one of the factors in effect. This points to michael bush's post in this thread regarding microflora:

Suppression of growth rate of colony-associated fungi by high fructose corn syrup feeding supplement, formic acid, and oxalic acid"
yoder, christensen, croxall, tank, and sammataro
journal of apiultural research and bee world 47(2): 126-130 (2008)

the last sentence of the summary:



> Given the competetive nature and high-sporing (conidia) activity of these species, our results suggest that alteration or disruption of the colony mycoflora can occur by use of these compuounds. This may indicate a possible link between compund application and incidence of bee fungal pathogens.


deknow


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

I'd be embarassed to have my name associated with such a speculative, marginally significant and abstract statement. What were they thinking? A good honey flow 'probably' has a similar effect!

Oh, and is this not the Commercial Beekeeping/Pollination board? 

Somehow, I thought we would be dealing in hard, empirical data and real world experience here, not hypothetical, preliminary flawed studies with marginal significance.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>I am just learning and would rather manage my bees based on science rather than suggestion/opinion. There's just too much room for error otherwise. 

I agree totally! It seems we need much more research done on bee nutrition.For me it comes down to having a reliable supply of strong colonies to pollinate almonds.Some years we have failed in this and tried hard to figure out what we could have done differently. 
We are entering another drought year here in California.By late summer, there is going to have to be a feeding program that will allow young winter bees to be raised, with very little help from Ma Nature. Thanks to many years of scientific effort , and beeks like Keith who put a lot of effort into R and D, we aren't stumbling in the dark. But lots more needs to be done.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Larry, your first question, Lactic Acid fermentation process.


hi keith,

we've been doing a lot of research on this...martha gilliam's work is a good place to start.

LAB is only part of the process. the pollen starts to ferment as it is being collected, and in the first 12 hours, the fermentation is accomplished by yeasts, molds, fungi, and various bacteria.

over the course of a couple of weeks, there are 4 distinct stages of fermentation that occur, each setting the stage (and creating the environment) for the next. the beebread gradually gets more acidic over all of these stages, and each stage produces different byproducts.

it's worth noting that beebread has twice the water soluble proteins that pollen has...this is only one measured aspect.

this is a fascinating subject, and one that has been looked at by a few researchers, but not nearly enough!

deknow


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>I'm not sure how it could be. pH is simply a measure of the acidity of chemicals...

>LAB is only part of the process. the pollen starts to ferment as it is being collected, and in the first 12 hours, the fermentation is accomplished by yeasts, molds, fungi, and various bacteria.

>...it's worth noting that beebread has twice the water soluble proteins that pollen has...this is only one measured aspect.

That's how it COULD be the cause. If you upset the balance of the yeast, mold, fungi and bacteria you upset the balance of the whole hive, and in particular the digestion of protein because you've changed what bacteria live and can live in the pollen and the hive. If the hive is malnourished because they can't digest the pollen is it going to affect the hive? Cause short-lived bees? Cause stress and weakness that could open the door for diseases?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

The original questions were:
"How or does feeding pollen sub or syrup with diffrent ph levels change or control the ph levels in the hive?
The larger question is how important is this as a management tool for our current industry.
Has anyone tested pollen sub with low or high ph levels on large samples of hives and have any correlation or observations been made?"

No one disputes that *when it is available* honey and diverse pollen sources are the best diet for bees.
The original question was specific for pollen sub and syrup. When discussing the pros and cons of manipulating the ph, the necessity of it will come into question, but practically speaking, (and this board IS about practical applications), those of us that frequent here have little viable choice but to use these as additional tools to keep our bees healthy. 
Sheri


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well heck... I couldn't let Allen have all the fun. 

I call this the "WOULDA-COULDA-SHOULDA" approuch.

But seriously folks, track records is really what I go by. There is so much we don't know and so many what if's.

Is my method the best way? I have no idea,could it be improved on? problably, but what I do know is that my losses are alot less than avgerage. So somewhere inbetween is the sweet spot.

Keith, with more questions than answers.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

1. this is a discussion of ph levels in the hive. some of what has been presented is an oversimplification (LAB), and what i have posted to clarify is 100% backed up by good research for anyone that cares to persue it. i'd be happy to help out with more citations for _almost_ anyone interested. the talks ramona (my wife) has given recently at the nebraska state conference, the palm beach county (fl) conference, and the organic conference in arizona have been very well recieved by hobbyists and commercial (yes, commercial) beekeepers alike.

deknow


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

johnk and sheri said:


> has anyone tested pollen sub with low or high ph levels on large samples of hives and have any correlation or observations been made?".
> Sheri


yes...


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>Has anyone tested pollen sub with low or high ph levels on large samples of hives and have any correlation or observations been made?"
Good question. We are adding citric acid and vitamin C to our sub. I havent seen any harmful effects and in fact the bees will raise drone brood in January with 0 natural pollen coming in. But I admit it is just a guess on our part,having no data on where the 'sweet spot' is for ph. Approximating natural pollen would be a good start. 
---Mike(not a hobby-I feed tons of the stuff!)


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## Allen Dick (Jan 10, 2009)

Andy Nachbaur said "Tang" was the secret ingredient that beekeepers were using a decade or so, back. He also said that fermenting the substitute a bit was beneficial. I don't know what fermentation he meant, but he also claimed that the bees consumed supplement as a liquid, not a solid. Too bad we can't ask him.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

loggermike;405400 said:


> Alright two ton Mike.... lol
> 
> A few things, going off the top of my head, pollen comes into the hive 6-7 ph, BUT... goes threw lactic Acid fermentation process which brings it down to 3.5-4 ph. Thats when it's stored in the comb.
> 
> ...


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

allend said:


> I, for one know that <feeding honey and pollen is best diet> not to be universally true. It is a gross oversimplification that needs tons of qualifiers.


Agreed it is an oversimplification and I probably should have stated "_generally_ the most healthful". 
But again, this is not the question here. Let's pick our fights, er,... discussions... in a productive manner.
Sheri


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

allend said:


> Somehow, I thought we would be dealing in hard, empirical data and real world experience here, not hypothetical, preliminary flawed studies with marginal significance.


So, you are disappointed by the quality of the discussion because you ASSUMED something? 

Maybe you should have asked your questions on Bee-L if you wanted to engage more scientific and acedemic type persons.

Then again, what do I know?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well heck... I couldn't let Allen have all the fun.
> 
> I call this the "WOULDA-COULDA-SHOULDA" approuch.
> 
> ...


A couple of posts back someone said that they'd rather follow scientific data than suggestions. I for one would rather follow Kieths' successrate based suggestions or example than I would academically produced scientific papers. They have their place.

Beekeeping is as much an art as it is a science. And in some cases it is more of an art than a science, me thinks. So show me a succesful beekeeper and let me learn from him or her. That, imo, would be worth more than I can pay.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

One must consider all sources of information when trying to find answers to management problems. I like to see field research studies. But if it is based on data from 5 or 10 hives, well you cannot accept that as too reliable. And I do not accept results of studies that contradict my real life experience working bees for a living.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

a few notes to be clear (as things have been moved around a bit):

i'm not saying that no one should use feed...i understand the economic reasons for doing so...and certainly there are positive results for early pollination, honey production, nuc/package production...but are these diets we use perfect?

with that said, i can't think of a food that an animal produces for its young that we can replicate or have improved upon.

artifical milk for humans, cows, or any other mammal is not equivilant to the real thing.

i really doubt that critters in a blender with a bit of acid is as good for young birds as the regurgitated stuff their parents feed them (that will undoubtedly contain enzymes and microbes from the parents gut). (i have cut up frogs and fed them to young hawks who were left motherless when their nest was cut down by loggers...certainly it was better than letting them starve).

if we want to make the best pollen substitue, i think it's important to recognize and study both the composition of what the bees have evolved collecting/fermenting and understand the processes involved. this was my only reason for entering into this thread.

there are lots of published (and i'm sure unpublished) recipies for "beebread" that include adding acids and inocculating with various bacterial strains. these methods are a simplification of what the bees (and the microbes) would do if left to their own devices, and it seems (to me at least) important to understand this, and to look deeper.

deknow


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

deknow said:


> there are lots of published (and i'm sure unpublished) recipies for "beebread" that include adding acids and inocculating with various bacterial strains. these methods are a simplification of what the bees (and the microbes) would do if left to their own devices, and it seems (to me at least) important to understand this, and to look deeper.
> 
> deknow


Is there a way you could post those recipes or provide a link? That would be great to know which acids and bacterial strains people have already experimented with. Thank you.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Matt Beekman said:


> Is there a way you could post those recipes or provide a link? That would be great to know which acids and bacterial strains people have already experimented with. Thank you.


I'm away from home at the moment, and am on a dialup...so I really cannot google around for you. "Fat bee, skinny bee" is a document from the austrailian rural agriculture (or somesuch) that has one recipie.

but this is all (i think) missing the point.

pollen begins to ferment as the bees gather it, both from microbes that are present in the pollen, and from microbes added by the bees.

do people use irradiated pollen to make their substitutes? i think so in many cases. does this affect the fermentation? probably.

but the real issue (in my mind) is that each stage of fermentation gradually makes the beebread more acidic. each stage produces nutrients for the bees, and each stage eventually creates an environment that inhibits the microbes that make up that stage (like wine yeasts increasing the alcohol level until the wine yeasts cannot survive because there is too much alcohol in their environment).

as i said before, there appear to be 4 major stages of fermentation starting with molds, yeasts, fungi, and bacteria. what metabolites do these microbes produce besides acid? are they importatnt for bee nutrition? if we shortcut past some of these stages by adding acid (as formic acid is added to hay before it's wrapped in plastic to prevent "rotting" and promote "silage"), are we preventing some of these nutrients from being formed?

this "progressive fermentation" appears (at least from here) to be important. we cannot just eliminate the first few stages, add acid, innoculate with lactobacillus or LAB, and assume that it has all the nutrition, enzymes, or other factors that the bees need for long term health.

one does not make real pickles or saurkraut by adding acid to cucumbers or cabbage...the ones that come from the refrigerated section are far better than those "vinegar pickles" that are vaccuum packed on the shelf....the live cultures are essential to the texture, "tang", and overall feel of real pickles...there is no substitute if you've ever had them.

again, this is an area of bee biology that is grossly understudied, and generally oversimplified.

i beleive there was something posted on one of the bee lists recently where a pollen substitute (which was developed in arizona) was only sustaining 2 generations of brood rearing in greenhouse pollination. the addition of a small amount of beebread brought things right back on track. i'm certainly not equating what anyone who has posted here uses for pollen sub/supliment to the tucson bee diet (for which much of the research apparantly went towards making it water soluable), but clearly we don't know everything that is necessary for pollen sub that is equivelant to the real thing.

i often use this example. if you want to grow a tomato hydroponically (in water, with all necessary nutrients added to the water), you could spend years determining what should go in the water...and the tomato would still likely not taste fantastic (if good at all). you don't need to know what is in some rich soil and a handful of compost, but you can grow a great tomato in it without knowing all the details.

i hope this was helpful/clear.

deknow


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