# Trends in beekeeping.



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Climate change has effected the bees food source so feeding becomes a necessity when in other times it wasn't. Absconding, isn't that natural for the bees? Don't they live in a hive for a number of years and then take off? My guess is contamination which is definitely on the rise.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Mark

I think you are correct when saying its the internet forums that have made these more prominent. Prior to the internet forums there was little real time information about beekeeping and anwering any questions that may arise. I remember Jerry Hayes having a book ABC questions and answers about beekeeping or something like that but other than that your resource was ABJ.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

I think without a doubt that the internet gives the chance to communicate with way more people now than ever before. It also brings out a lot of people claiming to be experts when in fact they have very little experience making it tough to sort through some times. So its tough to say.

But....I've had a similer conversation with a local beek that keeps about 200 hives and has for a long time. His experience is that the hives are requiring more stores going into winter. Interestingly he has seen improvment in overwintering success and queen performance since he started rotating out brood comb. He also use to treat all of his hives years ago and now he only treats if a hive needs it which I'm sure are adding to his success. 

I have to use his trends since I haven't been doing it long enough to have my own.

Mike


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, maybe what I think I am seeing is an illusion brought on by the speed of information exchange? I guess that could be. I wonder how much more is a result of those who read internet forums and pick up on ideas of things which they think they should be doing when in fact maybe they shouldn't?

Is "The tail wagging the dog" an appropriate analogy?


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

I read Marks question and thought to myself, somebody (probably from the ultra liberal northeast) is going to blame all of our problems on climate change. Acebird, you didn't let me down. It seems to be the scape goat of the times but there's so much, mostly caused by humans, besides the change in climate that is probably hurting our bees (if the climate really is). There are many new chemicals used for pesticide, fertilizer and in the industrial/medical sectors that haven't been tested completely. Industry, in its zeal for profits, rushes products to market and only too late do we find out the side effect, unexpected consequence or outright criminal behavior.

Some of us look to the government for solutions but they are too much, too little, too late. Many of the officials in a position to help are in the back pocket of some of the criminals previously mentioned or are criminals themselves . The scientific community is the next hope but wait, they also rely on the previously mentioned criminals.

We beekeepers as a community do much harm ourselves. We import bees from around the world, unwittlingly spreading disease and pestilence. The professional few move most of the bees in this country from state to state, one end of the country to the other, stressing bees and making them susceptible to disease and illness. We spot disease and immediately treat with the latest snake oil that is supposed to solve our problem, contributing to the problem by keeping an inferior gene pool alive. If there are any sports out there that might be able to exist (maybe even thrive!) in this mess we've created we cut them off by requeening with "improved" queens.

My beekeeping has changed dramatically from when I first picked it up two short decades ago. I keep bees that produce less honey that would have been requeened twenty years ago. If they survive but produce less honey, I keep them now. There are some who will cheer this post. Others will abhor it and demean it in every way they possibly can. It will be deemed a threat to the livelyhood of some. I hope you can see past that and recognize the intent of the post. I have seen the problem and it is us. I think we must be the solution but not all of us are on board.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beyond,
Lots of truth in your Post, I think. One agricultural trend in my neck of the woods is fewer small dairy farms, leading to fewer acres of clover, leading to smaller honey crops. Where once in the St. Lawrence Valley 200lb, and even 300lb, honey crops were not unusual getting a 60lb average is more likely.

More corn, keeping dairy cattle off of the land and in the barn, and changes in the climate too.

I'm not one to point to Climate Change as the catch all of why things are they way they are. Never the less our climate had changed over the last 100 years, whether we had anything to do w/ it or whether we should try to do anything about it.

Thirtyeight years ago I knew people in Western NC who knew a time when rivers froze over in the winter so thickly they could use them to run oxen drawn sledges loaded w/ logs down the rivers to mills. It sure isn't that way now. Maybe it will be someday.

But let's not get into a Climate Change argument. I'd like to hear more about what those w/ some experience see as Modern Trends. Whether they are new phenomenon or whether they occured in the past too.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Now that the honeybee is firmly escounced in every corner of the earth, can you say with a straight face, that a critter that watched dinosaurs come and go for forty million years, before the dinosaur disappeared; is going to be much affected by a hairless ape who has only recently become clever in plundering them? We flatter ourselves. These changes are about as long term important as the varying length of fins on cars. We just aren't in charge here:<}


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The trend I see as Mark mentions is small scale beekeepers having access to commercial beekeepers and their methods. The small scale guys try to emulate the commercials.

**Disclaimer** _ I am saying absolutely nothing whatsoever about commercial beekeepers_. **Disclaimer**

However, it is not necessary for backyarders or hobbyists to emulate commercials. A backyard beekeeper does not need pollen patties. They don't need their bees to be built up in January to go to almonds and they don't need to requeen after a certain number of years to make sure the hive is on the freshest queen to avoid swarming and make rapid buildups. They don't need to rotate hive bodies, they don't need to store supers off the hive, and they don't need to make hundreds of pounds of honey every year, year after year after year. 

It's simply not necessary. And I recommend not doing anything that's not necessary unless you really just get a kick out of it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beyondthesidewalks said:


> (probably from the ultra liberal northeast) is going to blame all of our problems on climate change. Acebird, you didn't let me down.


Wow beyond! You label me an "ultra liberal northeast" and then your next five paragraphs are liberal concepts.

Along the lines of reading comprehension:
I did not say that all our problems that we are having with bees is related to climate change. Mark asked about feeding, climate change will affect feeding requirements.

Mark, you agree that climate has changed and even give anecdotal evidence of it but you don't want to discuss it or you don't want that to be the reason for feeding? I am not sure.

Personally, I don't think dairy farming does much for bees whether you pasture the animals or house them in barns. It is pretty much monoculture with corn being the main staple. Pastured animals will eat down the vegetation so there is no floral source. If dairy farms collapse wild plants will take over and in a way be better for the bees.

What is happening right now is an upsurge in sustainable lifestyles, organic farming, and beekeeping. These new beekeepers are using the Internet to acquire information on how to do it. Here on Beesource and other forums you will find post after post with the words "feed, feed, feed". Not totally understanding what that all means the novice gets the message that you have to feed bees no matter what. Medicating, and supplements go along with the feeding craze. I feel for kept animals the weak should be culled in favor of the strong as nature would have it so feeding should be a last resort not a first.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Vance G said:


> We just aren't in charge here:<}


I agree we are not in charge but human actions has an enormouse impact on other life forms more so than any other species in the world.


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## HBBF (Feb 4, 2011)

I often hear of beekeeping being another aspect of agriculture. I can understand that connection but dont believe it to be fair. I think it to be more appropriate to say that beekeeping is FORCED to evolve WITH agriculture. Our country operates with agriculture as its main driving force, and by agriculture I really just mean corn and soybeans. The big wheels of agriculture will do what ever it takes and spare no costs to ensure the future of corn and beans. Before I got into beekeeping I remember a summer that army worms had a huge invasion here in central Illinois. They ate everything in their path that even yards were just stems with no foliage at all. Hay was so scarce for the year that the feds lifted regulations on CRP land and allowed a one time cutting of grass to be baled for hay to help fill the need. But now looking back I wonder how that massive invasion was treated. I know for several weeks these things were all over the yard and then suddenly one morning there were hundreds of dry and shriveled up worm carcuses everywhere. I sense the main objective was to rid the country side of these crop eating insects with any means possible and with no consideration to side affects on surrounding inhabitants. Im sure the thought wasnt about the worms eating local honeybee forage but eating or damaging the majestic corn and bean supply. Im not going on a pesticide rant here but just thinking that raising a corn and bean crop is a constant struggle with its own issues just like honeybees are having their own plight. Just do a search on aphids and their destruction to soy beans and how they keep developing a resistance to treatments, sound familiar? My point is, the corn and soybean world is the shining star here and we will take any steps necessary to ensure their safety and any surrounding aspects, including honeybees, better be prepared to change and adapt with it and find its own ways to accomodate to its negative impact. Not to mention the amount of forage land that is still being converted to crop production due to the high value of corn nowadays. So now lets ask again, is it fair to say beekeeping is an agricultural venue.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Some other changes in agriculture that I've witnessed is the loss of small mixed farms, each one providing pasture and hay fields for the bees. These smaller farms allowed for longer and staggered foraging. 
Now with trends towards monoculture we have huge areas that start and stop blooming suddenly, leaving hives to fight over a few flowers along the road before and after. These nutritional stresses going into fall leave the hives more vulnerable to pests and disease.
The last couple of years I've included pollen sub to the hives as part of fall feeding to make up for the shortfall.
Also until I started following Beesource a couple of years ago I had never heard of mountaincamp, candy boards or emergency winter feeding. Now it seems like a lot of people are using these methods not for emergency feeding but in the fall as part of the winter prep even though they seem, to me, to be leaving more than enough feed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I agree we are not in charge but human actions has an enormouse impact on other life forms more so than any other species in the world.


Can we keep to beekeeping trends and the things which directly influence them please?
Thank you.

If you will read my original Post you will see what the Thread is about. I don't want to get into discussions/arguments about things periferal.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JD's Bees said:


> Also until I started following Beesource a couple of years ago I had never heard of mountaincamp, candy boards or emergency winter feeding. Now it seems like a lot of people are using these methods not for emergency feeding but in the fall as part of the winter prep even though they seem, to me, to be leaving more than enough feed.


Yes JD I see this too. Even though I know what is called The MountainCamp Method was around for ages and ages and it was only because of beesource.com that it became known by the name you refered to. I wonder if that history will follow the name very long. Is The MountainCamp Method described in Wikipedia?

An example of the influence of the Internet, I believe.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If you will read my original Post you will see what the Thread is about. I don't want to get into discussions/arguments about things periferal.


Sorry Mark, yes of course. Vance brought it up.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

The Coproraptor scores again!


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I see a lot more people interested in backyard beekeeping....a LOT more. Ten years ago, it was the crazy widow with a hundred cats and the beekeeper that were the local novelties. Beekeeping has gained a positive notoriety and a certain romance bordering on saintliness (for those who have done it for years). Beekeeping is becoming part of the terrain, along with free-range eggs and grass-fed beef.

I will predict, however, this wave of beekeepers will be short-lived. Keeping bees is a craft. In another ten years, there will be a bunch of used equipment for sale.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

there has been more research done in the last few years than ever before looking for the cause of ccd. If a university could find a cause
they would get golden grant money for a long time. with new equipment many viruses have been found. I believe many have been here a long time and they are not new. as far as feeding and pollen sub this has been recommened since the 60's and 70's. today it just gets talked about more with the internet. before new ideas were presented by meetings and the bee journals. my thoughts are that good mite management for mites would correct a lot of ongoing problems. the internet has changed beekeeping. some good and some bad.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

In every other form of modern husbandry in agriculture the livestock have been truly domesticated. In beekeeping I don't think we can or ever will domesticate the bees. I think we simply observe their reactions to our actions and select our actions to get something from them. The bees can leave your hive and go back to wild and survive. All other livestock can not do that except maybe the pig.

For this reason bees can't be factory farmed like the rest of husbandry. In fact, I think they resist the whole factory farming concept. Sure there will be some big beekeepers but most will be small. I think even more bees live a feral existence than captive one. The big business side of agriculture cannot ever take over beekeeping like it has other forms of livestock. It will however change our playing field. Monoculture will take away the bees forage. Cattle on pasture encourage diversity in that pasture. Stocking those cattle in a barn or lot and growing corn on the pasture kills that diversity and limits available forage for bees. The pesticides used on monoculture crops can kill our bees. There's more monoculture than there ever has been in the past and the loss of forage may one of the bees biggest problems. Bees in urban and suburban environments probably have better forage that is regulary watered, making it drought tolerant. That's a big change. The Earl Butz vision of agriculture, farming fencerow to fencerow, has been realized. Look at the prevalence of HFCS in our food products or the fact that we attempt to make automotive fuel from corn, using more fuel than it makes to produce corn ethanol. These trends in modern agriculture will change us and beekeeping.

As for feeding, I used to feed only in the spring to help hives build up so that they would have a large foraging force when our local honeyflow started, giving me more honey. Used it as an opportunity to feed them terramycin in the sugar water. Don't do that anymore. Only feed when a hive needs it to survive.

Acebird, I'm sorry you think I labeled you an ultraliberal. In my neck of the woods the two coasts seem very liberal to us, Texas probably being the most conservative state in the union. I really labeled the northeast ultraliberal. Being a "global warming skeptic" and the fact that my view is not tolerated in liberal circles I may have been heavy handed and I apologize. I think that global warming has been happening ever since the 1800s and there's not much we can do to stop it. We really give ourselves more credit than we deserve on that one. Interesting that Mars has also gotten warmer over the last 30 years...

Beesource, Beemaster and the bee-line before them have played a big role in beekeeping. The exchange of ideas and information have been a huge help to me. Until I stumbled on my current practices with information from Beesource I was about to give up on beekeeping. I wonder how many others would have also given up. I could not afford to keep purchasing bees and treatments and continue counting deadouts. One thing that has not changed is that the beekeeping community is still very fragmented. Ask 10 beekeepers how to do something and you'll get 10 mutually exclusive answers.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Mark,

I fit what you have described. I should probably let the bees do their thing but I don't. I don't learn about beekeeping by leaving them alone.

I only have a limited number of colonies. If I want to increase honey production I need to do things to get each colony to produce more. If putting a pollen-sup patty on in the fall will increase brood production which relates to increased colony strength in the spring I will do it. I will also do things to increase the forage if I can. This will include planting crops if necessary/possible.

Times have changed. Beekeeping is not what it once was. That is true for all of agriculture. It is not due to climate change or large corporations. It is all economics. What must each farmer/landowner do to increase profit/income as costs increase. Ground is not left fallow and crops are not planted that do not make money. Bee forage has decreased.

My local bee club is made up predominately by beekeepers who remember the days when it was much easier to keep bees. For the most part they are just hoping those days return soon.

The internet speeds the dissemination of information.

The lack of standardization in beekeeping results in those of us who are always trying to tweak things continually looking for the next improvement we can make. Mis-information we are prone to believe as true when starting out results in us wanting to make even more changes are we gain experience.

A new crop us start beekeeping every year!

Tom


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Right U R Tom.

I liken the internet and what was before the internet to the difference between hand tools and power tools. W/ power tools you can make mistakes faster. And those mistakes can be deadlier. W/ the internet, information is spread quickly. Misinformation too.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

How recent is the resurgence of small cell or natural comb? I know I am moving to NC because of my reading here.


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## oldreliable (Jan 29, 2011)

beyondthesidewalks said:


> contributing to the problem by keeping an inferior gene pool alive.


Can this be said about our own human race too? :shhhh:


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

beyondthesidewalks said:


> Ask 10 beekeepers how to do something and you'll get 10 mutually exclusive answers.


WRONG!!! 

You get 12 variations on three answers.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Do others see this too? What other trends do you see? Why is this phenomenon occuring at this time?


Well, I can answer this with one word. Technology.

If I had taken up beekeeping 20 years ago, my sources of information would have been a few out of date books in the local library, conversations with local folks at the beekeepers meeting. I would pick up a few tidbits, at maybe a rate of one or two new things, every couple of weeks. Stuff that folks in far away places were doing, would take a year, or maybe two, to migrate thru the rags, and eventually end up here where we could read some of it.

Today, we live in a modern technical world, and I took up beekeeping less than a year ago. I've done a fair amount of reading here on beesource, and, I'm pretty handy in crafting requests into the search engines. I've read online variants of the old books, I've read about stuff here, and I've been able to watch videos of presentations to other associations, by experienced commercial keepers, and pick up tons of information that was completely out of reach 20 years ago. As well, I'm pretty handy at searching thru academic journals, and, finding various research papers in different places online. In the last year, I've read quite a number of academic papers on research into various aspects of bee management, particularily current issue topics like pest management etc.

A place like beesource, is a tremendous resource for somebody like me. So, we have some issues, or, some thoughts on how to do things better. I dont have 500 hives, which will allow me to do side by side tests and comparisons. But, I can post a question here, and, within 24 hours get feedback from folks that have 'been there, done that'. Unheard of 20 years ago, getting 'been there, done that' experience, from beekeepers a thousand miles away, that I've never met.

In the real world, I'm one of those geeky nerds, that helped build the nuts and bolts of the infrastructure we now call 'the internet'. I had full time net connection in the office, back in the day when yahoo was the newest 'web index' out there, alta vista was the big 'search engine experiment', and google was a concept not yet dreamed up. Full time connection thru a 2400 baud modem on a leased line, and it was state of the art stuff. I've been writing firmware to go into routers ever since, and, never dreamed that I would live in a time where 100mbit connection into my home, office was 'just a routine thing'. Heck, I've got a 100mbit connection here, and, keep a 5mbit dsl line as the 'spare' for when the main connection goes out. I can craft a few internet searches today, and have more information at my disposal in 20 minutes, than the entire sphere of information available to me 20 years ago, and thats without taking the time and effort to do a deep search.

Beekeeping hasn't changed, the world has changed. Everything else, is just along for the ride. There is a wealth of information and knowledge out there, and, surprisingly enough, a lot of folks who revel in the concept of sharing it. I like to think thats cuz thousands of folks like me, spent a lifetime building this new world of information and technology, and some of us are trying to take full advantage of it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

beyondthesidewalks said:


> For this reason bees can't be factory farmed like the rest of husbandry. In fact, I think they resist the whole factory farming concept. Sure there will be some big beekeepers but most will be small.


I don't believe this is true. I believe emerging empires like China and Brazil will teach us differently.

BTW no need to apologize it is just that your post struck me funny. I used to be a hard nosed conservative but life enlightened me along the way and changed some of my views, not all of them.
I won't go into global warming because it will upset Mark but there is scientific proof of this and its cause.
The Internet is an information pipeline. So is the telephone, radio, and television. Each increased the transfer of information at an increasing rate. I don't think beekeeping is changing because the information is passed at a faster rate. Beekeeping is changing because the bees are stressed as a result of the changes in the environment that they are put into.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

beyondthesidewalks said:


> Acebird, I'm sorry you think I labeled you an ultraliberal. In my neck of the woods the two coasts seem very liberal to us, Texas probably being the most conservative state in the union. I really labeled the northeast ultraliberal.


Why be sorry for telling the truth? The two coasts are ultraliberal. We can list them in the order of

Ma
Ca
NY

and continue from there. I do believe Tx is one of the reddest states with a close follow from Ok and Mo.

However you really hit the nail on the head. lmao!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If I had taken up beekeeping 20 years ago, my sources of information would have been a few out of date books in the local library, conversations with local folks at the beekeepers meeting. I would pick up a few tidbits, at maybe a rate of one or two new things, every couple of weeks. Stuff that folks in far away places were doing, would take a year, or maybe two, to migrate thru the rags, and eventually end up here where we could read some of it.

This is true. I took it up 38 years ago and the local beekeeping club met once a month 500 miles from my house, so I didn't even have that. So you read the out of date books often written by some scientist who only has two hives of bees and you try the methods and they don't work and you tweak them as the years go by. The magazines open your eyes to the fact that not everyone does things "by the book" and you figure out you don't have to do all that stuff that was in the book. But things change pretty slowly in that kind of environment.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Im coming up on my one year anniversary of keeping bees. So this is from the point of a new guy on the block of beekeeping.

The internet is a powerful and valuable tool, it doesnt require a trip to the library or the local bee club meeting to learn to keep bees.........or anything else for that matter. If you want to learn how to do something and you are more of a "monkey see, monkey do" you can go to youtube and see how its done. If you want to ask a question and get 50 different answers, go to a beekeeping forum, then decide what will work for you.

I love the internet, its like todays society, its fast. If I ask a question now, I know within a few minutes to a few hours I will have some answers. I am not waiting on a return phone call from a beekeeper that is busier than heck!

When I first started with my bees, I had the mentallity that I needed medicines and treatments for them, but after reading peoples ideas and opinions, I refuse to use chemicals and will try not to feed the bees unless they absolutely need it. I havnt fed my nucs in a few months now, and they are booming, infact, I need to move them to single deeps tomorrow as they are getting packed!!

But, yes, I think the power of the internet has made the "school of hard knocks" almost obsolete, way to much information that doesnt let us fall face first and learn from it, atleast most of the time. And you know what, I do appreciate everyone that has helped me along with my questions, its because of you guys that people like me keep on wanting to keep bees and will continue to do so until I cant. I may dabble in pollination and if I dont like it, I'll stick to honey crops and maybe selling nucs and small scale queen breeding, but there is just to much experimenting and good times in beekeeping to ever give it up.

Thats my two cents, with a $2 tip!!LOL


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## DBeeCooper (Apr 28, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I don't believe this is true. I believe emerging empires like China and Brazil will teach us differently.


Sadly, I agree with you. They will come up with ways to game the system if they are allowed. It seems like there's nothing Chinese businesses won't do to make a buck (baby food and pet food poisoned with melamine, lead-based paint comes to mind). Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to find that most Chinese honey is made from sugar water and that much of the Brazilian Organic honey that commands such a premium in our grocery stores isn't really organic after all. Both Coke (Minute Maid) and Pepsi (Tropicana) recently admitted that their orange juice from Brazil contained banned fungicides.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

I was very fortunate to have a beekeeping mentor in the flesh when I started out. He has since quit beekeeping after some huge life changes and a new wife. The new spouse is coming around and I may get him back into it soon.

While beesource and sites like it are a mentor of sorts, I still believe that the local mentor that keeps bees with you is much better. I cannot imagine starting without mine. He taught me the fundamentals like how to start my smoker, get that cool white smoke and how to apply it at the hive. Except for a youtube video, I don't think you can really get that from the internet. In person is better in my way of thinking.

How many times has a new beekeeper posted a question concering their single hive, the problem they are having and the members of this group recommended that they find the local bee club? We see it time after time. Beesource has a place and opens many new horizons (I would have quit keeping bees if it weren't for Beesource) but I think the old fashioned mentoring arrangement is still the best.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> ... One agricultural trend in my neck of the woods is fewer small dairy farms, leading to fewer acres of clover, leading to smaller honey crops... Thirtyeight years ago ...rivers froze over... so thickly they could use them to [move] sledges loaded w/ logs down the rivers to mills... those w/ some experience see as Modern Trends... [or if} they occured in the past too.


Yep, larger not smaller farms but not just dairy farms is an agricultural trend now-a-days and it has been a trend for quite some time. Small farms are as a rule more diverse than large farms. But this has nothing to do with the farmers love for the environment or fondness for farming but the fact that it is difficult to earn enough cash from a small farm year in and year out to pay the property tax on the land, little less earn a living or pay for your kids’ college education from farming. Often farm labor and equipment are not profitably employed on small farms, diversification is one route to correct this but alas, too often diversification only results in debt multiplication not income diversification.

The Earth's is complex and our environmental knowledge is so limited that 100 years from now (imho) most of our ideas today about the environment will be viewed by future generations like we view the "Flat Earth theory" or intelligent design today. For instance the last time the Tennessee River at Decatur, Alabama froze over was in the late 1980's or early 1990's. I was deer hunting on the South bank the evening the storm struck. Forty-Eight hours later I saw car tracks in the snow all the way across the Tennessee river and some curious soul had dropped large rocks or else small chunks of rip-rap off the highway bridge onto the ice to test it’s thickness. The rocks remained high and dry for days. The all time record low temperature here is a balmy MINUS 19 degrees F in January 1966. Another thing that leads me to think that Global Warming aka Climate Change is not affecting bees is the Nome, Alaska drama this winter when the Artic Ocean or the Bearing Sea froze solid from seabed to wave crest this January. The first time this has been reliability reported or observed. But we are bombarded with so many dire reports about bees disappearing or else white bears drowning that we think the Earth is going to purgatory (or else the other place) in a hand basket. 

Modern American housing is not bee colony friendly, and neither is modern American land use patterns.
I am sure no homeowners association would tolerate a bee tree in your front yard, and the same applies to a feral colony in the walls of your track home as well as beehives in your back yard. You could cover the lids of your garden hives with 24c gold, inlay the bottom boards with mother-of-pearl, and label you hives “the true path to enlightenment” and the homeowners association is still going to move your hives, and maybe you as well off your property. 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/P4150170.JPG
The above link shows the Tennessee River at exactly the same place that someone drove across when the river froze. It also happened in 1940 and ever 30-50 years before and since. That is why we call daily climate variations “weather” Its because no one knows whether it is going to rain tomorrow or whether the weather is going to be sunny.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

SQKCRK wrote:

Where once in the St. Lawrence Valley 200lb, and even 300lb, honey crops were not unusual getting a 60lb average is more likely.

I think this is the most driving factor, being both the effect, and cause.

I seriously believe that although the weather is changing, it is the plants that have changed. The blossoms are empty. Plenty of flowers, but no nectar.

Locust in the 40's and 50's was a good source of nectar that my grandfather spoke highly of. We have not seen any in the last 20 years. Goldenrod has ussually dependable for a fall brood chamber "fillup". Not any more. More feeding mist be done in the fall now. 

One thing is consistant - Basswood(Linden) is still fickle.

On the up side, several years ago we had a collectable Black Cherry surplus. That has never happened before in memories going back to the 40's.

Because the plants have changed, we are doing all kinds of things to try to maintain the 150-200 lb averages of the 40's. Feeding more, using pollen supplement, requeening, anything to get us back to "normal".

There are also more queen longevity issues. The "Bull of the Woods" spoke(in the 60's) of the hives requeening them selves every 3 years or so, without the beekeepers help. The queen would start to fail, and they would calmly supersede her. Good luck finding a queen now that is on her third season. We are keeping better records to spot any that make it that far. Most are lucky to make it through the second season before failing, and often without supercedure.

Crazy Roland


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"fewer small dairy farms, leading to fewer acres of clover, " - we still have the dairy next to us - bigger, more cows but no clover - all Rye grass all winter. Farmers are to concerned about bloat


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

boy do I miss alta vista the only search facility that gave me what I wanted instead of all the comercial sites.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

from the latest dadant catalog we have: nozevit, bee cleanse, optima, amino-b booster, honey b healthy, brood builder patties with honey b healthy,
brood builder patties with hbh and nozevit, brood builder moist patty formula or outdoor dry formular, megabee and I haven't even got to the other catalogs yet. I must admit I haven't used any except mega bee once. Now I don't fault dadant they monitor the internet and give the customer what they want but really what do the bees need. I do agree with I think it was roland about the weeds are a changing, but nature seems to adjust just fine, golden rod is drying up(but I think its more from lack of rain than anything else) but napp weed is replacing them. Around me in N.Y. alot of beeks are moveing hives up from Penn. because they get flows up here like they used to get in Penn.? I do wish the farmers would stop mowing down my golden rod and napp weed because the price of milk has gone up. I am looking for later maturing golden rod plants to take advantage of the later frosts If anyone would like to collect some seeds for me:applause:


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Man how times change. I recall in High School how all the talk was about Big Ag and how commercial farming was going to mean the end of the world. Well something like that.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> Because the plants have changed, we are doing all kinds of things to try to maintain the 150-200 lb averages of the 40's. Feeding more, using pollen supplement, requeening, anything to get us back to "normal".


Everything you described above is normal when the climate changes. 150-200 pound average per hive may not be normal. So what you are doing could be making matters worse.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It's more complicated than that I suspect. What you are doing could be making matters worse too.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You are right but nature would be at fault and I trust that nature will select the right balance.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Nature is cruel and dishes out unusual punishment. Thats why we live in conditioned homes.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Modern American housing is not bee colony friendly, and neither is modern American land use patterns. -Scrapfe


I think Scrapfe hit the nail on the head. Populations of many bees, not just honeybees, are declining across the country. Bumblebee diversity and numbers are declining. Solitary bees are going the same way.

Just some examples:

Fence lines have largely disappeared. Wildlife formerly had at least narrow corridors/sanctuaries in fencerows. Many of those are gone or vastly reduced.

Rock piles and "waste lands" -- those little patches that were too wet, or too steep, or just not ideally suited for ag production -- are buried and leveled and drained and plowed. Fields get larger and larger, and "weeds" are less tolerated than they were formerly. Every ag field is expected now to be a sterile monoculture of only the intended single species planted.

People don't tolerate "critters" around housing areas. Beekeepers are guilty of this, too. When was the last time you found a yellowjacket nest, recognized them as valuable predators of a number of insects and valuable pollinators of some plants, and left them alone? I've read all sorts of posts here about ways to kill off creatures like these.

I think one of the dangers that comes with rapid exchange and large amounts of information is the likelihood of "self misdiagnosis," if you will. The medical community deals with it. Plant and tree diseases and problems are often misdiagnosed by people searching on the Internet. I think the same happens in many areas.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You are right but nature would be at fault and I trust that nature will select the right balance.


You blame your existence and your negative impact on Nature both on Nature? And Nature will take care of balancing things? Interesting.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

No Mark, I thought you were refering to my two hives.
I realize I have a negative impact on nature but as humans go I think I have a much more positive impact than most humans. For one thing I actively try to increase that positive impact.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Most people I know feel the same way. But, if you really want to do what you say you want to do, don't reproduce and then stop consuming.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think my father told me that about 40 years ago but I didn't listen.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Another "myth" that seems to be repeated often is that southern queens and packages can't handle northern winters. The belief now seems to be that northern bred queens are acclimated to colder weather.
Historically the Canadian bee industry relied on southern US bees for their existance and when the border was closed we had to turn to Hawaii, NZ, and Australia for our bees. The climate of these suppliers will never be confused with mine yet the bees wintered just fine.
Now just to be clear I am talking about wintering ability. As long as the hive and queen were healthy they would winter just fine.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Was the border closed because the "myth" is not a myth?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The border wasn't closed because of queen survival myths.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Mark, back to your original question. I suspect the information itself hasn't changed so much, as has the method of information transmission. I still have my handwritten notes for a candy board, adapted from an article in "Gleanings" in the 1970's. How many today are willing to lay out $50 for a hardbound book when you can get an answer for free from the internet? Beesource? 

As a previous poster noted, more backyarders and hobbiests are using some commercial practices, because we're more aware of them now, thanks to Beesource. Back then, the only exposure to commercial practices was thru ABC's perhaps, or The Hive and the Honeybee, or ABJ, or attending a commercial meeting. Now that information is readily available, and commercial beekeepers are willing to share information on forums like Beesource.

My hat is off to those professional/commercial beekeepers who share their hard-won wisdom and knowledge with the rest of us.
Regards,
Steven


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

BMAC said:


> Why be sorry for telling the truth? The two coasts are ultraliberal. We can list them in the order of,
> and continue from there. I do believe Tx is one of the reddest states with a close follow from Ok and Mo.
> However you really hit the nail on the head. lmao![/QUOTE
> 
> I believe you forgot Ky. Who sent Rand Paul to Washington. NOT me though. Even though I'm fairly conservative, I don't claim his Idiocy.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

My bad. You are correct. I love Knob Creek. Aint nuthin like seein a quad duece in action. I would vote Mo and Ky are neck and neck in that race.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I just want to interject a couple of thoughts to this thread. While they have been expressed by others I want to reinforce some of their thoughts with my own. 

Bees: I'm too inexperienced to make any sinceable comment on their past. But what I'm seeing today with all that is going on I'm not sure that they will always survive in the future.
Global warming: At 67 years old I haven't lived long enough to KNOW if it is 100% a fact. But it is my belief that if we continue on with our ways of poluting the atmosphere our grandchildren may have an entirely differient world to live in. It won't be good.
Pesticides:Having farmed all my life I know that with chemicals we can now produce more than ever before. I also know that we kill many more pests much easier than ever before. I think that it is probably having an adverse on our bees as well as all pollinators. Can we in any way be sure that the same pesticides aren't in our food in miniscule amounts?
Internet:This is from someone who can still remember the day we got electricity, and can remember the day we moved the outhouse inside. There has been more change in my lifetime than ever before in history. While it is mostly good I long for the relaxed days of yesteryear. There is so much available on the internet it is almost scary, to me. If it weren't for beesource I probably would have quit beekeeping long ago. Good luck to all!!


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> ... I realize I have a negative impact on nature but ...I think I have a much more positive impact than most humans. For one thing I actively try to increase that positive impact.


We have neither a positive nor a negative impact on nature. Over time the impact nature has on humans is orders of magnitude greater than the impact humans have on nature. Ever fiber of our being has been spun, woven, and dyed in nature’s textile mill. Nature was here before the first human shed his or her tail. Nature will exist long after the last human is reduced to mulch. 

We can discuss the progression of the natural world, but before we start I wish to state that many of us have a much too exalted opinion of our own importance or impact on nature.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

What makes us (humans) believe we are separated and distinct from nature?


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

"our grandchildren may have an entirely differient world to live in"

I believe that will be the case no matter what our actions may be. Like the weather, there are way too many forces at work that shape our world and civilization to accurately predict or keep it the same.

Global warming seems to be taking center stage in this thread whehter we like it or not. It has been proven that the relatively small number of "scientists" who are pushing the global warming issue in the political arena have already made up their mind and select data which backs up their position while ignoring data that does not. One piece of data they have conveniently ignored is sunspots/solar flares which have been in the news lately. I work in telecommunications and keep track of solar activity as it concerns my profession. We're experiencing massive solar activity recently and I'm expecting a hot spring and summer this will have a direct influence on flora and in turn our bees.

"Can we in any way be sure that the same pesticides aren't in our food in miniscule amounts?"

I'm aware that there is a huge amount of female hormones in our water. One explanation is that many women are taking birth control pills and the hormones are being excreted into the environment, having an effect on all life. Don't know how accurate that may be. Farmer to my south just spread fertilizer on his fields before we had a 3.5" rain. How much of that nitrogen ended up in the local water supply? We use chemicals very irresponsibly and that will have an impact on our environment and therefore the bees.

"This is from someone who can still remember the day we got electricity, and can remember the day we moved the outhouse inside. There has been more change in my lifetime than ever before in history."

I love that part of your post. There's a part of me that longs to live in a preindustrial age. I have a friend that told me it never made since to her to move the toilet inside the house where we cook our food. I wish I could have kept bees before ALL of the problems we experience today. Reading old books (from the 1800s) that are so easy to find on the web today, makes it seem like it was so easy to raise bees back then. Change will continue and hasten IMO.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beyond,
you do realize, don't you, that the world you imagine, dare I say fantisize about, never existed?


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> beyond,
> you do realize, don't you, that the world you imagine, dare I say fantisize about, never existed?


Do you mean we had AFB, EFB, varroa and tracheal mites, SHB, and CCD in the 1800s? Notice that I capitalized the ALL. Imagine or fantasize doesn't matter to me.

Just 20 years ago I had a much easier time keeping bees.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Kieck said:


> What makes us (humans) believe we are separated and distinct from nature?


Only the liberal enviro-wackos beleive that. 

I myself am part of nature and so is my 3/4 ton diesel, my lawn tractor, my central air unit, my 2 kids, and a dog. All of it is natural as far as I am concerned.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"Just 20 years ago I had a much easier time keeping bees. " - I have to agree there. If we take bees as an indicator of change - Wow!
20 years ago all I had to do was take off honey, indeed this is what many beekeepers did here. Many never looked at the brood, never re-queened, never replaced a frame until they really had to.
But then I also agree that we tend to be a bit romantic about the past ( and I have been around for a while)
I wish we could take the best from the past and best of the present and build a smarter future.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beyondthesidewalks said:


> Do you mean we had AFB, EFB, varroa and tracheal mites, SHB, and CCD in the 1800s? Notice that I capitalized the ALL. Imagine or fantasize doesn't matter to me.
> 
> Just 20 years ago I had a much easier time keeping bees.


Oh, I thought you were refering to the times in general being so much better. AFB was epidemic in the early 20th century, until Sulfathiazole, Apiary Inspection Services and mandatory burning practices and the outlawing of nonremovable comb came along.

Sure, beekeeping was easier 30 years ago, 35 maybe, but there were other challenges. Like running a business on $.45 and $.55 honey.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> Only the liberal enviro-wackos beleive that.


I don't consider myself an "enviro-wacko", but I do recognize and honor "the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part" and I'm liberal. Actually I don't have any idea where you got that idea, that "liberal envor-wackos believe that" "we are separated and distinct from nature".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

max2 said:


> "Just 20 years ago I had a much easier time keeping bees. "


20 years ago in NY we were 6 years in to Tracheal and Varroa. Maybe y'all mean 30 years ago. Except in Australia maybe.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mark In 1976 I bought a ford f250 4x4 cab n chassis for less than 7k. that was when honey was just hitting 50 cents per lb. Im not sure if we are any better with todays costs plus fuel costs which is a major expense for us.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

As far as bees go, if we do not stop poisoning them, exposing them to new parasites, and eliminating their food supply, they will die out. Honeybees are not native to the US, and I can easily see them becoming a very minor part of the fauna and practical beekeeping becoming only a faint memory.

My grandfather kept bees for forty years, never spent much money on them, and got decent to excellent honey "crops" the whole time. Aside from some problems with AFB in the 30's he had few problems. Today, as I drive around on my way to work and other places, I see less and less forage every year. Used to be wild flowers of all kinds around fields, now there is only what's left of Round-up resistant grass, mud, and pavement. No woodlots full of black locust, no pasturage to speak of, hence no clover, it's pretty barren. Not a surprise we don't get much honey, it's all my brother and I can do the keep the bees alive.

What this really means, of course, is that the ecology as a whole is in precarious shape, and I can see the human population declining in a huge crash if we lose one or more of our very few main food crops.

Not a good vision!

Peter 

Peter


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> mark In 1976 I bought a ford f250 4x4 cab n chassis for less than 7k. that was when honey was just hitting 50 cents per lb. Im not sure if we are any better with todays costs plus fuel costs which is a major expense for us.


Yeah, I remember my first new truck too. A 1974 Dodge pickup. Barely $3,240.00 or something like that. It lasted me until 1987. And then the best truck I ever had cost me $12,000.00 I believe, a Ford F-150.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

psfred said:


> Honeybees are not native to the US, and I can easily see them becoming a very minor part of the fauna and practical beekeeping becoming only a faint memory.


I hear ya, but I don't know what the first half of this sentence means in your statement, because, neither are you or anyone else native to the US. Nor for that part are any of us truely Native to where we live in the World. Everybody had parents or ancestors who immagrated from somewhere else.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> 20 years ago in NY we were 6 years in to Tracheal and Varroa. Maybe y'all mean 30 years ago. Except in Australia maybe.


20 years ago I wasn't experiencing anything like what we have now. TM and varroa were around but hadn't hit me very hard yet. Seemed like I could do no wrong and the bees made a ton of honey(another romantic memory). (Before you comment on that last sentence, it's hyperbole and I don't really mean no wrong or tons)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Gotcha, comprende'.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Yeah, I remember my first new truck too. A 1974 Dodge pickup.


My fist trunk was a 1967 Chevy fleet wood that I bought for 1K from my brother in law. I drove it about 9 miles and got stuck on a dirt road the first night. The throw out plate gave out. From then on the sob wouldn't die. Like a fool I traded it in for a new 1973 pickup, got married and the wife couldn't dirve it. So I gave it away for a family car.
I am still a fool but after a few marital adjustments I hit gold. No one has ever said I lack determination. I will succeed.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

It has been mentioned earlier in the thread that farms are getting bigger. Not so in the commercial beekeeping world. 25 years ago, there were 3000 commercial beekeepers in the USA. Now, there are around a thousand trying to maintain commercially, economically substainable numbers of colonies. Most of the commercial beeks that came into the business back in the 1950's in the heyday have long sinced died out with nobody replacing them. Now, there are a whole lot of new beeks coming in maintaining small numbers. Everything is cyclical. Of those new beeks, 300 out of a thousand will remain beekeepers. Those 300 will buy up the hives and equipment of the other 700. How is this possible? Well the average hobbyist starts out with a hive or two. Thus operations consolidate. Of those 300, 100 will become sideliners buying up other beekeepers businesses as well as adding equipment on their own. Of those 100 only ONE will become commercial. Usually that person buys up several smaller operations consolidating them. Commercial beekeeping has traditionally been pegged at 300 colonies for starters. How many years will the present cycle play out? A lot depends on the markets, diseases, and how hard people are willing to work. Everybody wants to text or type on a keyboard but do not want to break a sweat. It takes a lot of hardwork and determination to keep bees as a sideliner or commercial. In this new age of internet information everyone thinks they can learn what a commercial beekeeper knows---NOT TRUE, nothing can ever replace hands on training. So for progressive hobbyist beekeepers that want to learn. Go find a sideliner or commercial and mentor up with them. And if one of those critters is not available in your area, go find a hobbyist that has more than fifty hives and many, many years of experience. You will be glad you did. Good luck and Good Beekeeping. TED


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Commercial beekeeping has traditionally been pegged at 300 colonies for starters.


Really? I thought it has been posted that one person could work 1000 hives. So 300 isn't even full time for one person. I can't imagine a college grad being driven to a business that is part time when the same amount of work and risk could net them 6 figures or better.
300 colonies sounds like a retirement business that has negative growth potential.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"for starters". It's a cutoff point of sorts. An industry standard.

One young strong focused beekeeper amy well be able to work 1,000 colonies, but 500 to 750 is more likely. One thousand would be more than most people would want to work on their own. Working 500 colonies by ones self is enuf for me. Anymore than that and I look for help every now and then. One thousand and every now and then becomes more often.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> One thousand and every now and then becomes more often.


Still, you are talking mom and pop at best. Why would you encourage your kids to take that route?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Huh? Mom and Pop? I know beekeepers w/ 1,000 who would disagree w/ you. Whatever you mean by Mom and Pop. Even though the beekeepers I am thinking about are both a Mom and a Pop.

Encourage my kids to take that route? Do you have the idea I am? Or was that in general. If one gets what they want out of 500 or 1,000 colonies, why not?


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## oblib (Oct 28, 2011)

Ace, whats wrong with mom and pop? I'm going to make the most $$$ for my effort with the hives I work myself, The money I make off other peops working my hives still entails work on my part for alot lower return. To go beyond what I could work myself and make it worth it would require more than doubling the hives being worked.

To throw ROUND numbers around. If I work 500 hives and make $50k a year then hiring someone to work the next 500 hives prob only make me another $5k by the time I pay her and the insurance/unemployment etc... and still have extra work managing the larger operation and empoyee. So, I really wouldnt want to do that unless I was going to grow it to 5000 hives because each extra worker doesnt add to my workload near as much as that first one does.

Just my opinion ofc but I would rather have my kid making 50k doing what they love then making 75k and working the ass off to get it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> Really? I thought it has been posted that one person could work 1000 hives.


Perhaps you should spend a bit more time READING up on the history of beekeeping so you'll know when someone makes a comment like this it's fact, not fiction. Start with Beekeeping in the United States. You'll learn a lot.

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/statistics-on-bees-and-honey-2/


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If I can go out on a limb, and I expect those who know to verify or correct me, in otherwords commercial beekeepers, every full time employee requires the owner to put on at least 500 colonies to generate enuf income to afford that employee. Or something like that.

Is this a beekeeping trend?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

oblib said:


> Ace, whats wrong with mom and pop?


Absolutely nothing. 



> Everybody wants to text or type on a keyboard but do not want to break a sweat. It takes a lot of hardwork and determination to keep bees as a sideliner or commercial. In this new age of internet information everyone thinks they can learn what a commercial beekeeper knows---NOT TRUE, nothing can ever replace hands on training.


Ted is say 300 hives is commercial, Mark says 500.

Can you consistently clear $50K a year with 500 hives? What capital does it take to get started?

Making money without breaking a sweat was always an American dream. Have we lost that?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Stop feeding the expert troll.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Absolutely nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think Ted was saying that a minimum ofg 300 is necassary to be considered commercial as far as beekeeping is concerned. I don't know if anyone can make their total income from 300. Maybe in a specialty market area.

I maintain 500, which pays most of our expenses here. My wife works too. Our combined adjusted gross income has never been $50K. Is there something special about $50K?

When you really want to know how much it costs to get started you will figure that out for yourself. KNowing you as little as I do, I would say it is too late in your life to make the change and investment. But I have been wrong before.

I never knew that was an American dream.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Acebird said:


> Making money without breaking a sweat was always an American dream.


They call it the 'American Dream' because you have to be asleep to believe it.

I personally tire of the arguments back and forth over the definitions of who is what kind of beekeeper. Is that a modern trend or has that been doing on this whole time? It's obviously a gradient.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Making money without breaking a sweat was always an American dream. Have we lost that?


I never heard that the American dream was to make money without sweat...and you surely wont build a bee business without at lot of "sweat equity"....I think what this country lost was its work ethic!!!!!!!!!!!.

I'm following Ted's detailed plan to a "T". Started with 22 nucs....split em...split em again...hit 100 hives and bought out a few sideliners, got some good equipment....split em....split em again...bought out more beekeepers for more equipment..hit a few stumbling blocks and growth was slow for a little while....this past year continued splitting, making honey and selling bees...business paid for itself all year plus its making the payments on the new/used flatbed truck...headed to orange blossom this year with 300. Will split to 600 after orange blossom...

My dream is 2000 hives....Not gonna get to my "American Dream" without a lot of sweat and even more hard work....ITS HOT HERE IN FL!!!!


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## oblib (Oct 28, 2011)

I think he got the 50k from me. But, as I stated in my post I was just throwing out ROUND numbers.

I'm not a commercial beek. hope to be some day. I have made close to 100k/yr in the past but I needed that due to where I lived and what I wanted (toys). Now I could easily live comfortably on 12k a year which I could make at a fast food joint. I would rather, and do, earn my current living by working for myself though.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Then you have a head start perhaps, working for yourself.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

peacekeeperapiaries said:


> My dream is 2000 hives....Not gonna get to my "American Dream" without a lot of sweat and even more hard work!


I never said it didn't require sweat to get to your dream but you are striving for it. If you succeed you will do more pointing and less doing while the money rolls in. No one that I know is looking for a better job to do more physical work.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> If you succeed you will do more pointing and less doing while the money rolls in.


Could be so in some industrys. But, the most successful beekeepers of size that I know are right there w/ the crew doing it day in and day out. One in particular leaves the packing and distributing to others, but he is right there managing every day. Managing hives and managing people. Doesn't ask anyone to do anything he wouldn't do himself and show it. That's what it takes to successful in bees.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Not sure if this is relevant...
My professional beekeepers down the road : two owner operators, 1250 hives and nucs, hard working selling honey, doing pollination, selling nucs and queens. Both make a good living. Honey worth $ 3.10 /kg at the moment. A queen in small numbers about $ 16. A nuc about $ 70 ( 4 frames) - two trucks, a couple of pick-ups, extract on site.
On the other hand - 20 hives and selling honey at farmers markets will make maybe $ 10000 a year.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

max2 said:


> two owner operators, 1250 hives and nucs,


Ok what is a good living that the two have to share? Can either of them get away without the operation crashing?

10K is good pin money for a retiree or as a second income but it is less then welfare as an annual income.


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## oblib (Oct 28, 2011)

But some of us, and I'm not saying you are not one of us, would rather work 15hrs a day and just barely stay fed and clothed than draw welfare.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"Ok what is a good living that the two have to share? Can either of them get away without the operation crashing?"

Both have lovely homes and seem to have time to chat and enjoy what they are doing. We complain about the honey prices and the weather and marvel at the flavour of Macademia nut honey . Both take holidays. One of them went to Argentina to Apimondia last year for a month. Hard workers, generous but a good and honest living and both great blokes. I enjoy each visit.

"10K is good pin money for a retiree or as a second income but it is less then welfare as an annual income. "

But who want's welfare if you don't need it?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

max2;749325But who want's welfare if you don't need it?[/QUOTE said:


> I suppose some do because they know of no other way to exist. Very few people really want that life though.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Doesn't ask anyone to do anything he wouldn't do himself and show it. That's what it takes to successful in bees.


I can see where this guy might be a great guy to work for but I can't see that as a requirement for success. It is obviously to me you feel differently.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I suppose some do because they know of no other way to exist. Very few people really want that life though.


I did not mean to point fingers at anybody - beekeeping for me is very much a hobby. I plan to retire from consulting and teaching pretty soon and beekeeping will keep me fit and busy and interested.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I can see where this guy might be a great guy to work for but I can't see that as a requirement for success. It is obviously to me you feel differently.


Depends on what you mean by success. How you define success.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> How you define success.


Keeping the business from going under year after year. It is going to mean different things to different people. Some people want to get 20% return on investment, some people just want a sustainable income.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Some people want those things and to enjoy what they are doing too.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Better than 1/2 the working people in United States do not enjoy what they are doing but are considered successful.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I don't know if anyone can make their total income from 300. Maybe in a specialty market area.

I believe this may be a current trend. With the poor quality of honey(ha ha ha ) on store shelves, there is room for someone with the right public image to capitalize on production of very pure (read "no mite treatment") and selling for a premium price. 

Acebird wrote:

"Keeping the business from going under year after year." as a definition of success.

Hate to tell you this, but we came very close to failure when the owner no longer went out in the field, but relied on a hired hand. We are back to the owner getting his hands stung. Things are changing too fast to make business decisions without knowing exactly what is happening in the hives. The old models that worked from 1940 to the mid 80's do not work today. Not even the methods from 2000-2005 are viable today. The successful beekeeper must now own several more "hats" just to understand the new dynamics that are occurring in the hives. An uneducated(formal or otherwise) person is in a heap of trouble today.


Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Better than 1/2 the working people in United States do not enjoy what they are doing but are considered successful.


Don't ya feel sorry for them? I do.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Roland has it right. The beekeeper/owner themselves had better be out with the crew in the bees as much as possible. The dynamics of beekeeping change about every six months it seems with some new development or problem. Solomon, getting beekeepers to agree and get along is a lot like herding cats. Hobbyist give commercials the devil. Commercials return the favor and figure hobbyist are not working their bees... Why? I will never understand it when it is us commercial guys that are left in the industry that supply most of the hobbyist's bees they purchase......American Beekeeping Federation members never agree with American honey producers and visa versa. Everybody likes to pick on Sioux honey Association and it's members. And most everybody hates the honey board now, except the packers. Solomon, beekeepers ever since I have been keeping bees, this type of bantering has been going on to no end. I reckon it has always been that way. Sadly we are all part of the same industry. That industry has a lot of problems real, imagined and potential. Unity is what we need. And to borrow a phrase from a very ancient and venerable organization-"Strength is the support of all institutions, especially this one of ours". TED


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the fact that beekeepers cannot get along is one thing that has not changed. It may stem back to compitition for bee yards and pollination. one new trend in beekeeping is the amount of time required today per hive because of mites. It just adds man hours to maintain a hive. today one person cannot handle as many hives as pre mite days. as far as the number of hives a guy can run lets use mark as an example. If he did not take bees to sc he probably could run 750 hives in ny with the same labor. he runs 500 and takes them to sc so the cost and man hours eat up a lot of time. with out moving a guy can run a lot more hives. the plus side is by going south losses can be made up without buying nucs or packages. I always figured the extra honey I take off pays for part of the trip and the increase is a bonus. It is a good way to maintain numbers with todays mites. besides that they have great bbq down there.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Solomon, There is actually a name for the concept you are presenting in this post. It is called "High Farming" Basically it is the difference between how a person with an orchard msut care for their trees and how a person with just a half dozen trees can care for theirs. A person with ony a half dozen can spend the time to tend to each individual tree while the commercial produced must treat an entire orchard regardless of what individual needs are.
Here is an example of what I mean. I grow tobacco in my back yard. I grow all of 132 plants a year. One person that knows far more than me about tobacco grows 40 acres a year of it at around 7000 plants per acre. This person has given me tons of information regarding the development of the plant care, feeding, recognizing when it is ripe etc. but nothing we do looks the same. HE give me the goal and I figure out how to get their.

This is my friends start at 6 weeks of age when he has to start thousands of them









This is a tray of my plants (8 of them) at the same age.









Obviously different results. Both are successful for how it is being done. I believe the same difference exists for the commercial beekeeper and the back yard beekeeper.



Solomon Parker said:


> The trend I see as Mark mentions is small scale beekeepers having access to commercial beekeepers and their methods. The small scale guys try to emulate the commercials.
> 
> **Disclaimer** _ I am saying absolutely nothing whatsoever about commercial beekeepers_. **Disclaimer**
> 
> ...


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

This is a huge trend I see that has a very direct impact on beekeeping. I am referring to the entire discussion that took place around this post. I see it is now an assumption that because man exists he has an impact on nature. This part I agree on. But that the impact is negative or positive I do not agree with. Yes you can find some locations where mans impact is noticeable and some of those impacts might even be negative. But nature can and will shrug off even consolidated poisoning in short order. As it has been said. Man gives themselves far more credit than they deserve. But that thinking and believing that we are changing the earth impacts beekeeping at every turn.
Take the trend toward individuals keeping bees in their back yard. this alone is largely due to the concern that man is killing the earth sort of thinking. IN many cases people will keep a beehive simply to provide a place for bees to live, doing their part to help a struggling insect. real or imagined it has created a complete;y new reason for a individual to keep a hive, make mistakes, contribute to the problem or the solutions.
The internet has made this possible to a reasonable degree of success with groups such as this. I can go from Zero to keeping hives in just a few months. And that is because I am taking my time. This also has the effect of making the effort have less value. A new person is more likely to walk away because they have little invested. I see this recognized on this group from time to time in comments like "Those that are here today but will be gone tomorrow". It is in a way an invasion for those that have decades of commitment to the craft. It is both welcomed and resented.

In my blunt fashion I will put it this way. You now have the tree huggers swarming into the club meeting and then preaching to the old timers how everything they have ever done has been raping nature. And society in general tends to make it harder and harder for the old timer to defend their views. With beliefs like mans impact on nature must obviously unquestionably be negative. Why can't anyone consider that the net effect of mans impact may very well be very good? We thought forest fires where devastating until Yellowstone burned. then look what we found out. Now it is pretty common policy to not even fight forest fires unless they threaten property. Who'd u thunk a fire was good for nature?



Scrapfe said:


> We have neither a positive nor a negative impact on nature. Over time the impact nature has on humans is orders of magnitude greater than the impact humans have on nature. Ever fiber of our being has been spun, woven, and dyed in nature’s textile mill. Nature was here before the first human shed his or her tail. Nature will exist long after the last human is reduced to mulch.
> 
> We can discuss the progression of the natural world, but before we start I wish to state that many of us have a much too exalted opinion of our own importance or impact on nature.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Most people view "nature" as a balance of living things minus the human race. When the human race is added to the mix "nature" can be impacted greatly.


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