# Warre VS KTBH for overwintering



## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I have not done any reseach on these hive types. I have no bees. I have two nucs on order to place into my two langstroth hives that I fabricated and built.

I plan to keep bees for pollination purposes, hobby value, and general awesomeness. I'm not in it for the money, or even for the honey, for that matter. If I got a gallon of honey in a year, I'd have more than i needed.

So, with that out there, I plan to try and trap some swarms and was cutting wood last night and got to thinking...why the heck would I make new Lang Deeps and all of the frames to have them sit out in the woods, fields...etc and possibly never be used. Making all of the frame components is labor intensive and not all that fun. So, I decided to do top bar traps. Well, if I'm doing top bar traps, I might just as well have a top bar hive or two. 

So, now I have to consider the Warre or the Kenyan tob bar hive. I'm not concerned about the difference in costs, or the difference in appearance, or honey production. I"m most concerned about which will be the easiest to overwinter in a Michigan climate. Without knowing anything, it seems like teh Warre might be the better option. 

I'll be researching this for a few days before building, but I figured I'd toss it out there for input from you folks. I welcome all input you might have, but I don't want to stir the pot and start a big debate about this hive or that hive. I will likely end up with langstroth, warre, and KTBH. after a couple of eyars, i can decide which I prefer.

Thanks,

Kris


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Here is my two cents after keeping all three for two years. 

Tbh-I truly had nothing but troubles with this hive. Weak compared to my other hives. They never filled up more than half of the hive. They swarmed every year no matter what I did. Feeding was a pain in the but. However they are by far the most pleasant to inspect, but a pain to close. They don't winter well and are difficult to treat with any kind of strips (for varroa). It may sound kind of harsh but these are simply my observations. This spring I am cutting out most comb and placing them in Lang frames. I will likely keep the hive there just in case a swarm wants to move in. 

Warre- it's an interesting hive. Thus far I have had mixed results. You have to micromanage a bit, but I have learned from my mistakes enough to make it work. In my humble opinion you will need to put a piece of comb if you ever plan to super or nadir a box. There are good odds that if you super without a comb or two they will make a huge mess. There is also a good chance that if you nadir without adding a comb they will ignore the box and swarm. Unfortunately had happened to me more than once. However when supering or nadiring with a comb, my hives have take to the new box very nicely. I believe that the small box size does have some benefits when it comes to wintering. I used 2x lumber. The box also has the inner dimension of the average winter cluster. I have also done away with the quilt in favor of a permanent top feeder with an upper entrance. In my neck of the woods, you need an upper entrance. I like the idea of natural comb, but on the other hand you could always just run 8 frame equipment and come close.

Lang-my first year hives gave me a surplus when my overwintered warre and tbh did not. They also built up bigger and stronger. Frames make many manipulations easier, but you could make warre half frames and keep things inspectable. It's also a huge plus that you can purchase Lang equipment very readily. Again you can easily run foundationless 8 frame equipment and run your hives like a warre. 

In the end if I could go back in time and talk to myself and change things, I would start with Lang equipment, have a warre or two and completely skip tbh altogether.


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

I will be starting Warre this year. Langstroth I've had for 12 years, TBH for 3. Unless you have several of each, I don't know that you can compare too much. My TBH are the best this year, and much better survival than my others, but I didn't pull any honey off.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

You are also in a climate that differs from mine. Maybe there's something to the TBHs don't work as well in cold climates. I had just assumed that it was a horizontal thing. All of the old timers in my area told me it was a horizontal issue and that bees will only move so far before they just flat out swarm. 

Who knows...maybe my entrances are in the wrong place. They are on the end. Maybe they need to be in the middle.


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I moved to MI from the TC area of MN. The MI winters are much more mild. We're only at 2 days that dropped below 0...so much more mild that the MN winters. Wintering seems like it would be more difficult in a KTBH. It seems like it would be much easier for a colony to survive in something that was more three dimensional with less of a horizontal cross-section. Part of me wants to try them all and see, but i don;t want to lose bees just for the sake of testing something. At times I have to remind myself that otehrs have had these thoughts and I'm not likely to revolutionize anything.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Here is what I would do if I were in your situation. I would start with foundationless 8 frame equipment. You can run deeps or mediums. Doesn't really matter. You can even run foundation if you want, but if you want to get close to the warre ideal go foundationless. When things get stable tinker with a warre via a package. I was in the same position as you a couple of years ago. I wanted to try everything to get a feel of what worked and how it worked. As a result I am starting my third year and should finally be getting to where I want to be. Again you can to whatever you want. Your life your choice. It is just nice starting with something proven and then tinker with the other things.


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

Kris,
Try them all !  I have found advantage and disadvantage to each.

Let me add one more hive to your list of considerations :

http://wasatchwarre.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/stable-climate-hive-by-roger-delon.pdf

Cheers,
Drew

p.s. recommend horizontals @ least 3', I go 4' w/19"TB's
p.s.s. Some of my hives:

http://tylrereamer.wix.com/andys-apiary


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

Hello Kris, Just thought i would throw my two cents in. My story is similar to yours. I decided last winter after alot of research to build 2 KTBH hives. I had no bee experience and wanted to get started. I'm a wood worker and wanted to build my own. I am also someone who likes to try new things and didn't want to go with the norm. I'm not interested in the honey at this point, just wanted to learn about bee's. The hands on approach of the KTBH hive appealed to me. Watching the bees build their combs and get their colony started was exactly what I wanted. I installed two 4# pkg's in april and away we went. A couple of weeks later i was able to get a couple of 5 frame nuc's, so I built two warre's and did a chop and crop and installed the nuc's in them. To make a long story short my warre's didn't make it, i was sure they were my strongest hives. They lived until January and then died. They both had 70+# of stores but didn't hardly touch any of it. My KTBH hives are doing great they are taking cleansing flights now and appear to be good and strong. They went into the winter with 46 bars of honey. The KTBH experience was exactly what i wanted. This year I have 6 more pkg's coming and i am going to try some long hives, repopulate my warre's, and might even build a couple of langs. My advice is to go the direction YOU want, but do your due dilligence in research and read everything you van get your hands on. Utube was my most valuable resource. By the way I live in southwest Montana at about 5000'. Good luck and have fun.


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

TNT,
If you try the Warre again, seal the top airtight w/ plastic 
Drew


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Different colonies do differently despite the same equipment and treatment. It's hard to make much of a judgement without a lot of them. I think northern stock will make more difference than anything else. Personally, if it was me, and I was trying to build something out of scrap wood, I would consider the TBH. If I was just trying to get natural comb, I'd do eight frame mediums with foundationless frames. If I was trying to get natural comb and save lifting, then I'm back to the top bar hive or a horizontal hive.

Wintering in a top bar hive is about having all the stores to one end so they don't work their way to one end and starve with food at the other end. A vertical hive isn't that much different. You still will do best with the food at one end (in this case top or bottom) and the food running to the other end.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

I went into winter with around 30 hives (horizontal top bar hives and Warre hives). Around 60% horizontal top bar hives due to a bunch of nucleus colonies (splits/swarms/etc.). So far I've had around 10%-12% loss. Of those, 2 were Warre and 1 was a horizontal TBH. I've been keeping this number of both types since 2009 and I've not seen a significant difference in overwintering success. They both seem to work just fine.


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## Silverbackotter (Feb 23, 2013)

Anyone who keeps ktbh have an upper vent to let out humidity? I have built 2 for some bees I have ordered this year and have only had langs before (years ago). 
I live in Zone 3-4 and it can be windy as hell.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Anyone who keeps ktbh have an upper vent to let out humidity?

That is my only entrance...


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## AkDan (Apr 13, 2012)

Drew. Why seal it off with plastic?

Both my tbh died. One starved. Only eating the upper 2 or so inches till it hit the other end. The 2nd never moved. 

I built two boxes last night for a warre. 

I am in climate zone cold as heck


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## Oblio13 (Aug 16, 2011)

Right now I have one horizontal TBH, two Warres and four eight-frame medium Langstroths and one ten-frame double-deep Langstroth.

The TBH has a window, and I love looking at it and working it. But it has never overwintered successfully. Maybe this will be the year. 

The Warres don't produce a great deal of honey, but they are very low-maintenance. I split them a couple weeks before the main flow starts, add a couple boxes once they get going again, and harvest in the late summer. That's about it. If you have a remote bee yard or don't want to spend a lot of time on your bees, I think they're a great choice. 

Lanstroths are nice because you can buy hive components for less than you could make them yourself, and the removable frames give you versatility. You can manipulate hives by the box as you would a Warre if you like. You can also harvest frames one at a time when your wife says you're out of honey, or open brood nests and checkerboard to discourage swarming. You can mine frames for nucs.


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