# Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, July 16, 2012



## westernbeekeeper

Looks great! I really like your suit.


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## cerezha

ooooo
Thank you! It is expensive one. I got it for Christmas. Very well vented, well suited for California weather (also -fresh from the washer...). In our bee-class, I felt, I am a "star" in this bee-suit, first time in my life! Sergey


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## cerezha

The final product - 5 kilos of honey out of 4 foundationless frames. Also, I got 3 kg honey-wax mixture - honey will be used for mead, wax - for candles. Sergey


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## cerezha

Another beautiful "frame" (top bar) collected today. No foundation, no sides and bottom of the frame.


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## AkDan

first post 3rd pic is that just different nectar sources getting the different colored cappings? Looks great, its something I'm considering doing for next summer.


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## cerezha

AkDan
My theory is that,if foundationless frame (bar) stays in the hive long enough, girls started all kind of comb "renovation". In this case they added an extra layer of the comb on top of the older comb. I have no idea how technically it was done. So, the main honeycomb is older, darker, and lighter part is just freshly cupped newer comb. I guess, honey in original comb is older and thus, may potentially be from different source (different color). In this case, I think, "color" difference is only fresh very light cupping vs older darker cupping. I do not think, the honey was different... but who knows - now, all these honey is mixed together producing wonderful golden tint! Thanks for visiting this post. Good luck with your project. Sergey


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## cerezha

I got a nice picture of my beehive. ... and some new frames!


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## Nature Coast beek

Nice pics and frames. I'm enjoying your thread. I really like the foundation-less honey frames, perfect for comb honey.


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## Naymond Rae

Foundationless is an awesome approach, and from what I understand the best way for farming honey and wax. Nice images...


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## Clairesmom

Gorgeous frames Sergey. Looks like the bees are working hard for you.


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## mmmooretx

More similarities Sergey, but I am using the Walter T. Kelley foundationless frames with the bottom bar. My TBH is 48" and I am building the bars on Sat. ( no bees yet). I got 20 med. super and 10 deep frames from Kelley until I see how they work. I installed 4 deeps, 2 per box, and 2 super frames last weekend. I will try to get some pictures this weekend to share.
Later, and nice set up!


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## cerezha

O, thanks! Bees are amusing!

On the picture is a new frame from the last inspection.


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## cerezha

Mike
My feelings are: as long as you crush-and-strain (which is what I do), the design of frames absolutely does not matter. I tried all combinations - "popsicle"-type starter, grove with wax; full frame; frame with sides; "frame" without bottom and sides. All of them worked for my bees. But, I implemented entirely different (?) management. Since we are in SoCal and something always is blooming, we have no seasons. So, I remove honey every month or so. My normal yield is 4 frames. I took every other frame and replace it with empty one - sort of checker-boarding. This way, bees are always busy "repairing" the damage in their nicely organized honey-storage. At the same time, I do minimal nest management since I am novice and I just afraid to do more harm than good. Good luck with your project! Post a pictures! Sergey


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## cerezha

September's 4th brief inspection. Not much honey but beautiful cupped brood in the "honey area". All foundationless truncated frames (bars);no cross comb etc.


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## Bubbles

You might want to consider making lotion bars with those wax you're harvesting. I've found them very effective in helping heal cold sores, shingles and cracked nails faster. One write-up also said it helps with psoriasis.


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## cerezha

Bubbles said:


> You might want to consider making lotion bars with those wax you're harvesting. I've found them very effective in helping heal cold sores, shingles and cracked nails faster. One write-up also said it helps with psoriasis.


 Interesting idea. In fact, I do make my own cosmetics and I am using wax for candles. But, the reality is that there is so little of wax per frame, less than 100 g. Currently, I have more honey than wax and my friends demanded not only honey but wax also. 
Sergey


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## cerezha

Another truncated foundationless "frame" from today's inspection.


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## cerezha

Honey comb I steal during last inspection 9-13-2012.


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## Gypsi

Maybe I will take photos next time I am in a hive. My Lang boxes are set up 2 plasticell, 1 foundationless, 4 plasticell, 1 foundationless and 1 plasticell. I've heard the bees won't draw out the plastic frames, but they do. Or they have for me. 

All frames are dadant, plasticell is dadant wax coated light colored (to help me see shb, mites, etc), wooden frames are wedge type strung with 20lb test weight fishing line in a horizontal bar pattern topped by x pattern. So if I'm sticking in a piece of comb from a cutout, I just pop it right side up in between the fishinglines and MAYBE add a rubber band. 

Bees have drawn out a gold solid 5 deeps and 4 mediums this year. Good enough for me. Next year I will sub out some plastic and sub in some more foundationless. And I get 100 degree temps here, I just do not do inspections in 100 degree weather and not support the bottom of the comb. I try to work at 90 degrees or less.

One day I will have honey. For today, I mainly have stored sugar water, but my bees came AFTER the flow, so I'm lucky I've got anything.

Gypsi


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## cerezha

Hey Gypsi
Thanks for vising! Take a pictures and post here (or other place). I would be interested to compare side-by-side plastic foundation comb and foundationless. Camera is my essential tool when I do an inspection - if I have any questions etc., I just take a picture to see in details later. My camera has good macros, so I really could see small details on the picture, which I could not in the field when working the hive.

As you could see, all my frames (at least honey) are foundationless and truncated. Most of them are very nice and straight. From time to time, bees decided to do improvisation, than I have a "double-deck" honey combs - they build one thick one instead two... Since, I crush-and-strain, really not big deal. Problem with these double-deck frames - they are too heavy, so I could not hold them by one hand to take a picture. May be next time if I will have assistant. Good luck with your bees! Sergey


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## cerezha

Today's inspection and honey harvest 9-25-2012. 
Man, bees were very unhappy when I get into the beehive... Bees are busy bringing more nectar in the hive (California!) and they are short in storage space. But, I do not feel comfortable adding 7th(!) medium...we are in earthquake zone; sometime I have nightmares what if this bee-sky-scraper will collapse from earthquake? So, I just steal 5 frames of honey creating some space for them. 5 frames - probably 15 pounds of early fall California honey! On the picture - what is happened when foundationless frame sit too long in the hive and girls decided to do home improvements... They basically, created a second layer of honeycomb on top of previous one. I do not know if similar possible on frames with foundation? I wish you to have a great honey crop! Take care, Sergey

Update - I upload a few more pictures of the harvested frames. All of them are foundationless and many - truncated. Note that all frames had no cross comb or attachment to the walls issues.


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## odfrank

>they are short in storage space. But, I do not feel comfortable adding 7th(!) medium...

There is a manipulation called "harvest crop and extract." Maybe you should read up on it.


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## cerezha

odfrank said:


> There is a manipulation called "harvest crop and extract." Maybe you should read up on it.


 Hi Frank, many thanks for suggestion. Quick search did not give me a good answer what you meant "harvest crop and extract"... Since I have only two hives permitted and I am foundationless, my flexibility is limited. My bees are also quite protective of their storage and especially nest. What I used to do - I left upper box full of hone to the bees. Periodically, I took 4 frames with honey from the next box (#2 from the top) and replace them with new frames. No drawn comb since I an foundationless and crush-and-strain... It is sort of checker boarding... It worked quite well for entire year. But recently, I discovered the brood in box #2 (from the top) - girls effectively screwed up my approach... So, by all my logic, I should add empty box between #1&2, but then - I'll have 7 medium store monster standing on unstable slope literally 20 feet from my garden and house... All my attempts to reduce the nest cause them to expand! The whole hive is boiled with bees now. I would really appreciate any suggestions. Many thanks for visiting. Sergey


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## odfrank

Let me try again..."harvest the crop and crush and strain". Three mediums of honey and brood with an empty on top should be a good winter size for your climate.


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## cerezha

odfrank said:


> Let me try again..."harvest the crop and crush and strain". Three mediums of honey and brood with an empty on top should be a good winter size for your climate.


 Well, we have no winter here... but yes, I follow your suggestion - I already collected the crop and is planning to crush-and-strain" tonight or tomorrow... Many thanks for your suggestion. Sergey


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## cerezha

September's honey.


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## Gypsi

You would need a lot of jars to empty three supers and get the bees down to a manageable height. Hmmm... 

If you leave it on, and something goes wrong, (shb, wax moth) you will lose it.


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## odfrank

I have a full bait hive at a friend's house that has a super of surplus honey on it and his wife is objecting to me harvesting it. She wants to buy the honey from me and leave it on the hive. SHB's best friend.


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## cerezha

Gypsi said:


> ....If you leave it on, and something goes wrong, (shb, wax moth) you will lose it.


 Shhhhhh, do not tell!!!! I know... the problem is that they extended the nest up into box #5 (from the bottom). I am waiting until they hopefully will shrink a little bit before the "winter". Well, we have no winter and girls are very active - I opened completely the entrance a week ago. Right now they are filling up the box #6 - all foundation and frame-less. Beautiful comb! I wish, I would take pictures during last inspection - but girls were not in picture-shooting mood at all! There is no way I could shrink it down to "normal" 3 mediums. The best would be 4 mediums... Many thanks for visiting this thread. Sergey


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## shannonswyatt

Sergey, I think you can only have two hives based on something you said in the thread, but you could pull some brood to do a split and give the brood to another beek? I would say give it to me (I thoughtful that way!), but I don't think it would survive the trip across the country.

I guess that is the bad thing about having a never ending summer, the brood cycle just keeps going and going.


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## Gypsi

If you have a 5 story broodnest sooner or later the bees will do their own split, AND take half the honey with them, if you do not shorten that stack. There are California beekeepers on here somewhere. OD Frank is one of them, Charlie B is a pretty smart beek too. 

(3 of my hives swarmed in the last month, making a new queen, taking some bees and stores with them.)

My images are too large for beesource, so all of my pretty foundationless comb will remain a mystery. I know it is hard to crush and strain beautiful comb, which might be why they made extractors, but I don't know if foundationless can be extracted.

Gypsi


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## cerezha

Shannon
Yes, I am permitted to have only two beehives by the City of Santa Monica. We are lucky - Los Angeles is not permitting bees! This is really great stock (bees). They swarmed beautifully in the end of July after I collected honey. Now I have brand new very enthusiastic queen. The swarm is a powerful colony in my neighbor backyard. Since, I am "natural" in many ways, I have no problem if bees do swarm (as long as it does not affect my neighbors). After swarming I decided to give them some break - result of this is 5 mediums nest... Now, I think, it is kind of too late to do a split... I wish you could have some of my bees, they are great! In the future I am sure I will make a splits to keep these local bees. Sergey


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## cerezha

Gypsi
Many thanks for visiting this thread. I am also concern about the scale of the hive. See my comments above. As for pictures - it does not work this way. Forum Actions/General Settings at the bottom of the page set "Basic editor". In "Go Advance" click "Manage attachments". In the separate window choose a single file and click "upload". Close download window and when done with text, "Submit Reply". This way the program automatically shrinks the image to acceptable size and post a thumbnails of the picture with link to the bigger picture. Barry, the Moderator, told me that it should not work, but so far it works. You could "upload' many pictures and then post them by clicking "Submit Reply". It took to me a while to figure it out - try, It would be nice to see your foundationless honeycomb! Sergey


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## BayHighlandBees

Sergey, 

are your bees redrawing your harvested frames this time of year?


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## cerezha

BayHighlandBees said:


> ...are your bees redrawing your harvested frames this time of year?


Yes, I meant, my management is different. Instead taking the whole super, I normally take every other frame in the box closest to the nest and replace with empty "frame" (top bar) - sort of checkerboarding... Top box is always full of honey (for bees). Normally,within the month or so, bees make a new comb and filled up with the honey. Sometime it takes longer. When box is 70% full, I remove frames with honey again (older one, from previous cycle) again. This way, bees are making new comb all the time. It is sort of swarming prevention. Periodically, they are slow down and take a break, than start again. It seems to me, they have short "winter" periods every 2-3 months. In mid July they swarmed. In mid September I got 5 frames full of honey and extracted approximately 7.5 kilos of honey. In July I got another 6 kilos. Right now, there are 5 beautiful 50-90% completed combs with nectar in the upper box. I did not take pictures since girls were not in right mood...


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## Gypsi

Sergey, we'll see if you can look at these. I don't have time to shrink photos to beesource standard, and the one with my queen is a 2 MB file I might print a tshirt off of


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## Gypsi




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## JRG13

Nice pics Gypsi and Sergey. Sergey, are the double deckers from frames that border the new frames you put in? I'm having that issue as well. The bees draw out the new frames ok, but they like extending the current frames into them at the same time, and I know how you feel, mine are deeps and I can barely lift them out with two hands and I have to pinch them so hard it hurts my fingers to hang onto them.


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## Gypsi

a really good frame tool is a must. And I mix foundationless between plasticell. My bees draw out dadan'ts wax coated plasticell just fine. They prefer the foundationless. But I prefer separated frames so we all get a little of what we want.










(and this is September comb being drawn, for all those that say bees will not draw comb in the fall. If they need comb, and they are fed or have flow, they will draw comb.)


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## cerezha

JRG13 said:


> ... Sergey, are the double deckers from frames that border the new frames you put in?


 Yes, they basically make exactly twice thicker honeycomb - instead two frames, they use one occupying the space of two. But, I do not care - crush-and-strain, you know... Interestingly, I do not see a difference when honey comb made in different foundationless "frames" (just empty frame, without bottom bar, without bottom and side bars, different starters) - the manipulation of the top bar "frame" with full honeycomb is not more difficult than if it is a foundationless complete frame. But, all my frames are medium in this hive. Many thanks for nice comment. Sergey


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## efaure

cerezha said:


> Yes, they basically make exactly twice thicker honeycomb - instead two frames, they use one occupying the space of two. But, I do not care - crush-and-strain, you know... Interestingly, I do not see a difference when honey comb made in different foundationless "frames" (just empty frame, without bottom bar, without bottom and side bars, different starters) - the manipulation of the top bar "frame" with full honeycomb is not more difficult than if it is a foundationless complete frame. But, all my frames are medium in this hive. Many thanks for nice comment. Sergey


Hay Sergey,
Could you post a picture what you are putting in the hive? ...just to have a visual of what you are meaning. Is there ANY wax on the frame (technically top-bar)? Thanks


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## cerezha

Gypsi
Oooo
Great pictures! You are master of macros! Gorgeous her Majesty. I wish to meet mine. Unfortunately, I never was introduced to "my" "her Majesty"! So, I even do not know if she is yellow or dark...


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## cerezha

Gypsi
foundationless deeps! Really cool! I never tried... very good pictures! Try my approach - it does not require to change picture-size. It will appeared as an thubnail, like mines above.


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## cerezha

efaure said:


> Hay Sergey,
> Could you post a picture what you are putting in the hive? ...just to have a visual of what you are meaning. Is there ANY wax on the frame (technically top-bar)? Thanks


Sure I will. But If you look in #22 post, you could see that "frames" are different. I used the following combinations:
starter strip - (1) grove filled with wax or (2) wedge (1" strip), no wax;
frame (no foundation):
- complete standard medium frame with 1 or 2 starter strip;
- standard medium frame without bottom bar with 1 or 2 starter strip;
- truncated medium frame without bottom bar and side bars (essentially only top bar) with 1 or 2 starter strip;

I tried all of them in non-systemic way. My impression is that girls do equally well on all of them - I did not see noticeable difference in drawing speed or quality of the comb (straight). My impression is that position of the frame in the box (and position of the box, top etc) plays more important role than frame's design. Also, if you noticed, all frames have zero cross-comb. I attribute it to the management - empty frame is always between two drawn frames and I remove frames as soon as honey is cupped - if frame with cupped honey stays in the hive for while, girls started "house renovation" and make weird things with the comb. But, it is happened only (in my case) when full frame sits in the hive for a few months. All these true only for honey-part of the hive. The nest part - is a mess!


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## cerezha

Gypsi said:


> ...this is September comb being drawn, for all those that say bees will not draw comb in the fall. If they need comb, and they are fed or have flow, they will draw comb.


 Beautiful comb!


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## cerezha

efaure said:


> Hay Sergey,
> Could you post a picture what you are putting in the hive? ...just to have a visual of what you are meaning...


 Unfortunately, most of my frames are in the hive... I have only these available for picturing. But they all the same - they are just unfinished standard frames. 
First picture at the top - just top part of the standard frame; at the bottom - frame without bottom bar. I was using particle board for starting strip, no wax. Alternatively, I just filled up the groove with melted wax. Both methods works fine to my bees. Right now, most of my frames have wax in the grove since it is easier to me.


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## cerezha

Bees dictates what to do. I have two beehives. One is 6 mediums tall and growing... another just happened to be experimental. First, I was trying to convert them into Kenyan horizontal beehive. For this I build adapter from Lang to KTBH. They refuse to expand into KTBH, become crowded in Langs part and heavily swarmed (beautiful swarm). I would call it "absconded". The rest suffered trying to establish a new queen... Finally, after 2 month of non-existence, they established a new queen and start growing (within initial Lang deep). I offered to them additional box - they ignored it! They are in complete denial to expand vertically! So, I spend the whole weekend making for them a horizontal hive - basically the box of the size of two Langs deeps putting together. Sort of compromise between Lang and TBH. So, today we had moved into nice two-bedroom apartment. I had chance to take a few pictures. Note that all frames are foundationless. I also did not find any single cross-comb or other comb imperfection.


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## danmcm

hey Sergey great pics almost makes me want to move to California for the year round forage. When the bees place wax over a cell they are capping it, thus you have a capped frame of honey. Couple of your posts referred to cupped cells and it took me awhile since you were consistant in referring to them this way thought it was something new...
Great job long live the queen!


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## cerezha

Danmcm
Many thanks for your comments. It is quite confusing here in California without seasons. Especially to me, from Russia. It is so interesting - large vertical hive is all about making more honey. The horizontal one (see story above) is full of brood and not much honey - just some around the brood and may be one full frame of honey... I hope they have enough to eat and feed babies. Two hives - two totally different personalities! 


danmcm said:


> ....Couple of your posts referred to cupped cells ....


 sorry for this - it is my broken English!
Good luck with your bees!


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## cerezha

I removed very old frames from my beehive. These frames used to have a brood. They are foundationless and stayed in the hive for at least 3 years (to my knowledge) - cells are 5.0-5.1 mm. I feel that dark comb is too "dark" and add a few pictures of my beehives place. The animal- is a "wild" cat, gift from Switzerland - was intensively searched on both borders. Persimmons are so bright and optimistic!


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## cerezha

I did inspection of my horizontal double-Lang hive (see picture above). It looks like, girls are doing very well. They made a few beautiful bars of honey - I was not able to take a picture because the comb is so huge, I was afraid it could break. In the future, I probably need to replace bars on some sort of frame for security. There are bunch of brood. I took only one picture.


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## mmmooretx

Very nice looking frame Sergey! I will have to post a picture of an add on to my frame perch that holds a frame up for photography. You might like the idea, and it is simple to build. I will try and remember to do that tonight.


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## cerezha

mmmooretx said:


> ... I will have to post a picture of an add on to my frame perch that holds a frame up for photography. ...


 Please!


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## cerezha

Since my girls are very active these days (SoCal), I decided to check with them to see if they have enough space in their 5-story apartment building. Apparently, from the last inspection 3-4 weeks ago, they managed to fill up 2 mediums. I steal one frame with beautiful honey to give them a little more space. Only 2 frames are completely empty. Most of the frames are at least 70% drawn comb with mostly uncapped honey. As usual, I am posting some pictures of my foundationless frames. This time I had an experiment - 2 month ago, I gave girls an empty box with top bars only - it is nearly full now. All comb is straight and there is very little cross-comb. Middle picture shows the top bar with honey comb in the Lang. I find that older combs (started earlier and completed now) sometime attached to the bottom - I have to be careful with this. I also made a holder for the frames to hold them outside the hive - it is massive, but works well for now. Girls behaved well this time. Next time it would be a winter harvest. Thanks for visiting this page. Good luck with your bees! Sergey


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## mmmooretx

cerezha said:


> Please!


Sergey,
I put the pictures and explanation in the photo section, link below. Drop me a note if you have any questions. It is sized for deeps or medium supers, just adjust the lengths as needed for your size frames.
Update, I do have the tall uprights bent in slightly to hold the frame ears tight enough so they do not slip out.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?276035-Frame-photostand&p=869094#post869094[/url]


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## cerezha

mmmooretx said:


> ...I put the pictures and explanation in the photo section, link below  www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?276035-Frame-photostand&p=869094#post869094


Many thanks. It is great design! Sergey


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## cerezha

Some fresh honeycomb from the vertical beehive (see above), 11-20-2012. Note that this is just "top bar". The honeycomb were stored in the container before taking a picture, thus - some damage to the beautiful honeycomb (on the left). I apologize for that. 

I measured also the cell size - it is 6.4 mm, huge! It looks like, when they start honeycomb from foundationless, they always made a huge cells, but it is not drone's cells - it is for honey. It is my understanding that when comb is completed, they remodel it to accommodate the brood. I never was able to catch this moment... my brood cells are 5-5.1 mm. It is just mystery to me how they "shrink" the cells.
Sergey


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## cerezha

Occupy nuc! 11-21-2012


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## cerezha

Frame with brood is from my horizontal hive, it is blooming.


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## mmmooretx

Very nice Sergey! I would like to get into my hives but it is too cold in Houston right now. I have a NUC/rescued hive I hope makes it through the winter. They have been taking about 1 pint a week in 1:1 with HBH and active foraging, but have abandoned most of the comb from the rescue that I put in foundationless frames with rubber bands.
Have a wonderful holiday season!


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## cerezha

mmmooretx;875013...I have a NUC/rescued hive I hope makes it through the winter. ...[/QUOTE said:


> I hope so! Thanks for comments and have also wonderfull holiday season! Sergey


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## cerezha

My horizontal TB-Lang hybrid hive is blooming. Today weather permitted to do a quick inspection. The box is full of bees. They needed to be split but I am not sure what is the situation with drones. Girls made a beautiful comb and filled it with nectar and brood. To my surprise, bees were not aggressive at all. Sorry for the quality of the pictures - I damaged honey comb during the inspection and we had quite a mess, bees and hone everywhere... normal life. I also collected 7 frames of honey. Sergey


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## mmmooretx

Very Nice Sergey! The last 3 weeks I have been doing my garden set up, but the girls have been all over the Borage I planted, about 3 plants currently blooming. I really want to do some hive inspections but my garden work has to be done in between the rains here. The Sat. the girls were out in force, 71F, and coming back with their legs looking like cheerleader pom poms! My 3 main hives look very healthy from the front porch activity, but am still concerned over the recovered/rescued hive (still small), but there is still activity there. Hopefully in the next two weeks I can do a hive inspection and capture some video/pictures. However I may wait until my order from Country Rubes arrives, now waiting on Income Tax Return (already filed). I am adding two 10 frame med. only hives to see how that goes. I pick up my package bees from BeeWeaver on 6 April and I am really looking forward to this as it will be my first package install. I am doing two at my place and one more for a friend in a TBH I built for them.
Best of luck this season my friend!


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## cerezha

Few more frames without foundation - some from my horizontal hive utilizing deep-frame dimensions. Sergey


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## caribees

Are the bees not attaching the combs to the floor of the box? or the sides?


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## cerezha

Hi
If the frame sit in the beehive for long period of time (more than 2-3 months) than "girls" start doing re-modeling. At this point, everything is possible, but normally they do not attach comb to the bottom for sure (screened bottom) and rare attach comb to the sides. Keep in mind - we are in Southern California, we have no winter and bees worked year around. This approach works the best when you introduce a new frame between two already established. I basically, do checker-boarding. Thanks for the visiting. Sergey


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## caribees

Im In the cayman islands and I am thinking about capturing a wild hive.
I only have 1 extra langstroth box to work with so i was thinking of having one of the boxes frameless. 
One of the brood boxes will have frames that i will cut out the comb and put them into along with the bees. 
As i am leaving to go back to school and I wont be checking the hive for another 2 months what do you think they will do if I just leave them with an empty second body to work into?
I'm thinking about putting the boxes under the cut out comb framed box. 
What do you think will happen in the time before I return?

Thanks alot for your help my friend.


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## cerezha

Hi
I do not think anything good happened - when beehive is just establishing, it needs to be watched quite often. I had bad experience when added an empty box - it was only one time ever when girls made a comb under 45 degree to the frames. I think, in general, bees do no like completely empty box. I have the best results when I add empty frames one by one, not entire empty box. If you limited in hardware (boxes, frames etc) I would suggest to use top-bar hive (TBH) - it is very easy to build and it utilizes foundationless design. The issue with not-straight comb will be similar to Lang, but it seems to me, bees tolerate "emptiness" better in TBH. Goodluck with your project. Sergey


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## caribees

Thanks for the reply.
What If i checkerboard frames with the cut comb and empty frames with starter strips.
If i did this in the two brood boxes I have would that work?


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## cerezha

I am beginner beekeeper and have limited experience. My feeling is that when hive is establishing, it is better to keep brood area together, without empty frames. Once, bee established (1-2-3 mo?), than you could add more empty frames. During the period of establishing, I think, it is better do not traumatize bees by breaking the nest.


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## Bubbles

Another option is putting a couple of ladders in the bottom hive box so you don't have to open it up later on. A ladder can be an old comb or a frame with foundation or a topbar with foundation attached to it.


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## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

This season,my bees prefer horizontal hive. Vertical "attachment" to it was my unsuccessful attempt to split the hive. It did not work, as a result - bees got extra space. Now this space 100% full with nectar. There are 2 empty frames in the horizontal part. Looks like, girls are busy.


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## Lazer128

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Fascinating approach to bee keeping and beautiful pictures. I get my first bees on March 30th. I can't wait to become an active part of this community.


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## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

All my bees are busy these days making more comb and hopefully more brood.


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## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

I learned how to use a hair-clip on youtube. It works great. I used it to make the comb straight.


----------



## Lazer128

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Awesome idea. Write a book and I want to be the first to buy a copy.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



Lazer128 said:


> Fascinating approach to bee keeping and beautiful pictures. I get my first bees on March 30th. I can't wait to become an active part of this community.


 O, thank you so much for nice words! Good luck with your bees ... and be advised - it is addictive!


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



Lazer128 said:


> Awesome idea. Write a book and I want to be the first to buy a copy.


 Thank you, but Michael Bush already wrote THE BOOK:
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm


----------



## mmmooretx

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



cerezha said:


> I learned how to use a hair-clip on youtube. It works great. I used it to make the comb straight.


Sergey, I have also used the hairclip trick and like it. Your hive is looking well, as always. I got a video camera and have been doing the learning curve. I did some filming of hive inspections, but lost almost all of what I thought was being recorded. I got a camera with bluetooth remote control so I was using my phone for the remote on/off (record) but as soon as the signal was lost record turned off. This probably happened when I set the phone on the hive top to get into the hive. Oh well knowing this I should have some soon. I am getting 3 package bee sets on 6 Apr. and will film that as I am going to all med. super boxes on those 3 hives. I hope to get into the others before then as I have already put supers on the other 3 that have 2 deeps each. All 3 are building comb in the supers and it is interesting to see which one is building faster. The funny thing is that my "weakest" hive of the 3 is building the fastest, but I need to see what is going on in the bottom deep on that hive.
Later my friend, pictures soon.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Oooo, so sad with video, but I understand. I have problems even with photos. If you noticed, there is a gap in postings - just forgot the camera, batteries happened to be dead just "in time" (spare ones as well), bees were too "active" and block the view (literally)... In general, this horizontal hive is full of bees - when I open it, they just "overflow", not because aggressive, but because too many... very difficult to use the camera. Also, full deep frames are very heavy - I could not securely hold them by one hand to take a picture. Thus - most spectacular images from horizontal hive are lost! I completely switched to the top-bars in the horizontal hive - it is quite impressive - huge perfect combs! But, difficult to manipulate because of the weight and no support on the sides and at the bottom. I am thinking to do one step back and provide some sort of support for the comb. There is no way I will return back to the classical frames - I will add support to my existing top-bars. 

I am glad to hear that your bees are doing well. I am looking forward to watch your movie! Sergey


----------



## BayHighlandBees

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

if you are not going back to frames, would your support descend from the middle of the top bar?


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



BayHighlandBees said:


> if you are not going back to frames, would your support descend from the middle of the top bar?


 Hi BayHighlandBees

No, I do not think so. My bees normally start a new comb from the center of the bar/frame, so I would imagine that obstacle in the center may discourage them to start the comb. Currently,I am thinking about making actual frame but based on my top bar design. I am thinking about a sheet metal thin strip (or aluminum) running on sides and bottom in the place of the frame. The advantage (to me) would be that it's easy to make and attach to existing top bar with the screw; it is easy to cut the comb for crush-and-strain; it is more elegant than a typical frame. Alternatively, I could add just metal strip sides to the top. I would do it only for full-size deep "frames" and mainly for the nest area. I am perfectly happy with my top-bars in the mediums.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*










http://warre.biobees.com/delon.htm
http://ruche-warre.levillage.org/Fabriquer de bons cadres, par Christophe.htm


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Yes, but instead the rod, I will try to use a strip and no foundation. It is really difficult to invent anything in beekeeping. Many thanks for the references. By the way,the second reference is not interesting, it's just a frame with foundation.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Nay, the second reference has a frame with rod bottom "bar". Check out all the references at the end of the first link. 

The rod frame doesn't need full foundation. It works alright with a beveled topbar or starter strip and with a follower or something. 

Yey, virtually everything in beekeeping has been seen and invented before. In an old German beekeeping book, dating back to the year 1568, the author reports about an observation hive with windows the Romans used and described in books. Also the management of a hive including splits with brood combs, raising queens from cells and all was standard in 1568. Despite using fixed comb in log hives. 

For longer combs one may use half length side bars. (in not ao wide hives.) See Tim Malfroy, Australia:




























See his website:
http://www.malfroysgold.com.au


Thanks for sharing your comb pictures! May I show them to others outside beesource? Quite some people are interested in fozndation free here in Germany but don't speak or read English.

Bernhard


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Bernhard
Many thanks for sharing all these beautiful ideas! Based on my "experiments", the bottom bar is not essential. Thus, "bottom rod" probably is not essential as well. I would imagine, it was used more for mechanical stability of the frame, not comb. The side bars (all way or half) may help to prevent the attachment of the comb to the walls. But in my hands, in medium boxes, side attachment is very small and is not an issue (to me). From another hands, right now, we (me and bees) are migrating towards bigger frames (old story, right?!). I really like Tim Malfroy's approach. In fact, I am planning to do something very similar. If you saw my horizontal hive with "super" on top - what I wanted to do is to remove frames under the "super" from the lower part of the hive (horizontal part) and let bees to extend honeycomb from the "super" all way down into the horizontal part. The beauty of my current design is that I could use a different size boxes (supers). Instead two (as now), I could use one, for instance. But, I am not sure I can do it with my current top bars; at least 1/2 sides is needed. 

As for pictures - sure, please, feel free to show them to any bee-enthusiast. Many thanks for visiting this thread and for valuable information! Sergey


----------



## hlhart2014

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

You are inspiring me,...I have two nucs coming and have a 10 frame and 8 frame hive. I am seriously contemplating going the foundationless route in my 8 frame hive..the only thing is that I have 2 deeps and several mediums. I have been corresponding with a guy on the LetMeBee blog who uses deep frames and no wires..anyone else do this? Also I understand that you have to use some kind of guide(popsicle sticks, piece of foundation....)..what have people used here? I so love your pictures. Thanks, Halley


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Also check out: 

http://www.der-bienenfreund.de/download.php?f=84dcdc394463487092767bcce877352b&target=0


----------



## BayHighlandBees

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Sergey,
I'm confused here on what your goal is here. Is there a disadvantage to a foundationless frame that you are trying to solve with a top bar with sides?


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



Halley L. Hart said:


> You are inspiring me,...I have two nucs coming and have a 10 frame and 8 frame hive. I am seriously contemplating going the foundationless route in my 8 frame hive..the only thing is that I have 2 deeps and several mediums. I have been corresponding with a guy on the LetMeBee blog who uses deep frames and no wires..anyone else do this? Also I understand that you have to use some kind of guide(popsicle sticks, piece of foundation....)..what have people used here? I so love your pictures. Thanks, Halley


Hey Halley, thanks for visiting! There are few deep-size frames without any wires in this thread somewhere above. In fact the picture in post #73 is full deep top bar, not even frame. You need wires, foundation etc. if you plan to extract using centrifugal extractor. If you are using crush-and-strain - you do not need wires. I meant, it is my experience - others could think differently. The first few pictures in #75 are from my nuc, it's 5 "frames" deep. I am using foundationless because I feel that it is more natural and better for my bees. It does not necessary mean that it's easy - foundationless requires little bit more work and probably is not feasible for large-scale production.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



BayHighlandBees said:


> Sergey,
> I'm confused here on what your goal is here. Is there a disadvantage to a foundationless frame that you are trying to solve with a top bar with sides?


Hi Bay-bees
I am not happy with Lang's design. In particular, I do not like standard frames - too complicated, many small parts, easy to break, difficult to remove from the box especially if propolized, difficult toclean... Top bars to me have obvious advantages - easy to make, simple, one single part. Since a single part - there is not much to propolize. I am using top bars and truncated frames in Lang medium boxes without any problems - most pictures in this thread are from mediums. BUT! One of my beehive do not want to go vertical so we switched to horizontal... In horizontal beehive, we have deep-size frames... well top-bars. The whole hive was designed for top-bars. Now, I "discovered" that deep-size comb is difficult to manipulate without additional support - I am stepping back in my minimalistic top-bar design - I am adding sides to top bars. I think, Bernhard's idea about 1/2 sides are great - I definitely will try and report here. I am reluctant to return back to classical frames for reasons, I explained above.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Also check out:
> 
> http://www.der-bienenfreund.de/download.php?f=84dcdc394463487092767bcce877352b&target=0


 Yes, AND -no foundation! The only problem - they have brood in all shown frames. Is this common? How they harvest honey, from the side?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



cerezha said:


> ...brood in all shown frames. Is this common?


Yes. The bigger the comb, the less the division of brood and honey. The reason why I personally don't like huge combs. I don't see an advantage for the bees but lots of disadvantages dor the beekeeper. 



cerezha said:


> ...How they harvest honey, from the side?


Yes. On the sides. Some do use shallows frames supered, with no foundation. But the honey dome above the brood sometimes prevents honey storing in the supers. Also the broad combs does attract the bees to store honey there, on the sides, so supers are empty and broodnest backfilled. 

What they do is reduce the combs of the broodnest to about seven combs, all other combs go behind a follower board. That creates sort of a "pressure" which makes the bees go up into the supers. Actually this method creates quite a good harvest. The first supering is done ith drawn honey combs, shallows, and all other supers are with empty frames only. This produces the finest quality of honey I know of. No brood has been in those combs. So you taste less bees but the specific nectar. Timing is essential with this method. 

Spring buildup is known to be rapid on big combs.


----------



## odfrank

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

>Yes. The bigger the comb, the less the division of brood and honey. The reason why I personally don't like huge combs. I don't see an advantage for the bees but lots of disadvantages dor the beekeeper. 

I am slowly abandoning the double deep frames that I made. Two mistakes, too wide a brood chamber, 12 frames, no way to extract the frames, will not fit in any extractor. Too much honey is unobtainable in the brood chamber. I moved six of these frames to double stacked boxes with 9 1/8" frames on the sides. I might try some of them foundationless so that I can crush and strain them. But clearly the very deep frames prevent the honey from being pushed up into the honey supers. Lucky for me, I suffer die off problems so I can re-tool every winter.


----------



## hlhart2014

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Has anyone tried foundationless in the deeps and frames in the mediums? Just curious.


----------



## hlhart2014

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Sergey or anyone who would like to answer,
I am going to use standard deep frames in the deeps..taking out the plastic foundation. So if I put popsicle sticks/foundation strips across the top do I have to put them all the way across? Thanks, Halley


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



odfrank said:


> >...I am slowly abandoning the double deep frames that I made. Two mistakes, too wide a brood chamber, 12 frames, no way to extract the frames, will not fit in any extractor. Too much honey is unobtainable in the brood chamber. I moved six of these frames to double stacked boxes with 9 1/8" frames on the sides. I might try some of them foundationless so that I can crush and strain them. But clearly the very deep frames prevent the honey from being pushed up into the honey supers. Lucky for me, I suffer die off problems so I can re-tool every winter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....


 Gorgeous pictures! Many thanks for sharing OdFrank! I guess, the conclusion would be that biggest manageable frames are about deep-size. There is no advantage to make frames bigger. All agree?


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



Halley L. Hart said:


> Sergey or anyone who would like to answer,
> I am going to use standard deep frames in the deeps..taking out the plastic foundation. So if I put popsicle sticks/foundation strips across the top do I have to put them all the way across? Thanks, Halley


Halley, in my experience it does not matter what kind of guide you provide to the bees. It might be popsicle sticks, or just 90o rotated wedge, or waxed rope or just wax strip. )n the new frames, I personally do the latest - I just filled the groove (from foundation) with melted wax, so it creates sort of "strip". It is not better, but easier to me. If you do the "guide", it should be from side-to-side, but not exactly -mine usually ended 1" from the ends of the frame. When cut comb out of the frame - leave a small strip of comb on top bar to give bees an idea. When started, it is always beneficial to put empty frame between straight comb in the hive. If start fresh - give them at least one frame with straight comb and surround it with foundationless frames - check periodicallyand if necessary correct the direction of the comb.


----------



## odfrank

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

>I guess, the conclusion would be that biggest manageable frames are about deep-size.

I use a lot of 11 1/4" frames. After 42 years just starting to test 8 frame hives with all medium supers. In my climate a double deep traps too much honey and has to be cleaned out in early spring, same goes for the 11 1/4" frames.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



odfrank said:


> ...I use a lot of 11 1/4" frames. After 42 years just starting to test 8 frame hives with all medium supers. In my climate a double deep traps too much honey and has to be cleaned out in early spring, same goes for the 11 1/4" frames.


 So, I guess the strategy would be that frame should be large enough (long) to accommodate most of the nest (brood) but not much honey. My current approach with TBs and 1/2 sided frames (Bernhard) is so, that I could add "extender" between two bodies (or on the top) and bees could extend the comb into new dimension. For instance, to my 9" box, I could add 5 1/2" shallow, which would make 14 1/2" long comb. Or I could build 3" extender for my horizontal hive to have 11" -long comb. In my situation I am using all home-made hardware, which is interchangeable and compatible to Lang - I learned my lesson!


----------



## odfrank

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

>So, I guess the strategy would be that frame should be large enough (long) to accommodate most of the nest (brood) but not much honey.

In our mild climates yes...but in the real world - no. I think Brother Adam liked his 12 frame Jumbo depth boxes because they were big enough for the queen and winter stores. But for you and I they are also honey vaults that need robbing to keep them open. I am starting to think that an eight frame Jumbo depth brood chamber would be good for us as it would push the UN-needed winter stores up into the honey supers. I think I feel yet another footprint of hives coming.


----------



## hlhart2014

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Great thanks...I am thinking either of popsicle sticks or just using some of the extra foundation I have...cutting it into strips..however I don't have any wax...can't I just glue it? Another person suggested paint sticks but, the ones I brought home looked kind of warped.


----------



## BayHighlandBees

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Halley, 
I think you'd be better off not using the sticks. I've never tried it, but I've heard from others that using paint or popcicle sticks make the comb less sturdy than if the bee's drew their wax directly on the frame and it doesn't always ensure that the comb gets drawn out in the right direction. Last year I had no problem with the bees drawling out on empty foundation. For my setup I had each empty frame nested between two frames with foundation and that ensured that the bees drew the comb in the right direction. I use deeps and I would say that last year's drawn frames needed some additional support to keep it sturdy. I'm addressing that this year by adding small wooden dowels (the thinnest ones you can get at home depot). Lowe's supposedly has even thinner dowels. My idea is to have these frames be used for multiple purpose (could be used for drone comb, natural sized brood comb, cut comb honey, etc) so my dowels are strategically placed in a way that I can cut off the bottom of the comb for drones, or fit the cutting tool for cutting squares out for honey, etc. I'm trying out a couple different configurations with the dowels to see what works best. Will see how it goes this year.


----------



## hlhart2014

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Thanks, BayHighlandBees..dowels see like a much better alternative than popsicle sticks...having hubby bring home some tomorrow(he works in a hardware stor) The smallest is 1/8" and then the next size is a quarter..so we'll see.


----------



## eccentricbeekeeper

Each foundationless frame of fully capped honey is individually selected at the optimal time for harvest. My comb honey is hand cut and does not contain wax foundation.

Foundationless Frame Harvest Photo

Foundationless Comb Honey Photo


----------



## Bubbles

To Eccentricbeekeeper,

Your Comb honey sure looks yummy!


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## cerezha

eccentricbeekeeper said:


> Each foundationless frame of fully capped honey is individually selected at the optimal time for harvest. My comb honey is hand cut and does not contain wax foundation.
> 
> Foundationless Frame Harvest Photo
> 
> Foundationless Comb Honey Photo


 Great pictures! Many thanks for sharing.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



odfrank said:


> .. I am starting to think that an eight frame Jumbo depth brood chamber would be good for us as it would push the UN-needed winter stores up into the honey supers. I think I feel yet another footprint of hives coming.


 Interesting. As a novice in beekeeping, I was exited with all-mediums approach because it is simple and universal. But reality pushing me towards non-symmetrical hive with bigger frames in the nest. I nearly get into another extreme - super-large frames, but you helped me to understand that this is not the best solution for our situation ether. Many thanks!


----------



## hlhart2014

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Hi Cerezha,
I have another question about foundationless..do you put one extra frame in the box(so if you use an 8 frame you'd put 9 or 10 frame you'd use 11). I read about this in Mike Bush's book..he says he shaves the ends down to 1-1/4(from 1-3/8). My nucs are coming tomorrow...I am putting them into an 8 frame hive. I'm putting one deep with foundationless frames with dowels for comb guides in the bottom box and then putting the frames from the nuc and remaining extra frames into the 2nd hive body. This was suggested by someone I have been following on the LetMeBee blog..he has had good success with this. So I guess I need to know if you or others who use foundationless frames put an extra frame in?...do you shave the frames down?, if you do shave them with what tool?, and if I can't get to this before tomorrow should I just put the standard number of frames for the 8 frame? Or just stick a 9th frame in without shaving the ends down and see what happens?..if Mike Bush is on this I would so appreciate a response. And I appreciate any other responses as well. Thanks, Halley


----------



## rhaldridge

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

I'm using foundationless deep frames in my long hive. After a lot of research, I used triangular comb guides that come to a sharp point. These are cut to fit fairly tightly between the end bars, and secured to the frame with glue and a couple brads. I believe this is the best approach; it's the one used by most beekeepers for many decades after movable frame hives came into general use, but before foundation became available. It gives a lot more attachment surface than just the plain frame, because the bees attach the comb to both sides of the triangular guide, so about twice the attachment surface.

To stabilize the comb for handling, I use monofilament fishing line strung through the middle holes.

So far it's working great, and the bees are drawing out the frames perfectly.

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/newcombmar29hive1.jpg


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



Halley L. Hart said:


> Hi Cerezha,
> I have another question about foundationless..... Halley


Halley - Have deep respect to Mike Bush and really think that all his advises are really good. From another hand, in beekeeping, it is always that the same thing could be achieved using different ways... For my hives, I do not use thinner frames. My initial rationale was to have a slightly bigger space between frames (bees), so varroa will have a space to fell directly into my screened bottom. It is more difficult to achieve when bee-streets are more crowded... I think my approach is OK in So California because it is warm here. With your new nucs, I personally would just stay with conservative approach: move all nuc's frames (as they were in the nuc!) in the center of the box and surround them with foundationless frames. Close the box and leave them alone at least for 7-10 days. Let them to be at home. Watch them from outside (any pollen delivered?). If everything going well and bees building up the comb and there are three (or more) full frames with capped brood - than, I would gradually insert empty foundationless frame in the center of the nest. Let them build, add another one and sop on. I would not add 2nd box with empty foundationless frames - in my hands, it did not work well. My bees prefer gradual expansion. See, every person has its own approach! Good luck with your bees - post a pictures!!!


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



rhaldridge said:


> ... I used triangular comb guides that come to a sharp point....
> To stabilize the comb for handling, I use monofilament fishing line strung through the middle holes.
> .... http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/newcombmar29hive1.jpg


 Beautiful comb! Great picture! Many thanks for sharing! Yes, I agree that triangle is probably the best guide. The reason, I am not using it is just technical - I do not have a table-saw (or other facility) to do 45 degree cut. Post more pictures to show people that foundation is not necessary! Sergey


----------



## hlhart2014

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

I see your point too, Cerezha...I don't have time anyway to shave all the ends. I got the idea of putting the 5 frames from the nuc in the 2nd/top deep box(and the remaining 3 foundationless)on top of the 1st deep with all foundationless frames from another beekeeper on the web. He does this with his swarms and apparently has had great success. However, our weather which has been great all week has suddenly turned rainy and colder(again). I am worried that the extra space below will chill them. So I may just go the conservative route and start in the bottom box and work upwards. As far as inserting the foundationless frames into the middle of the brood..what do you do with the frames on the end. I intend to insert one frame of honey from last year's hive. So essentially I'll be putting only 2 foundationless frames on the ends(8frame hive). When they get filled do you move them out, harvest them, move them up? What do you do with the frames with foundation...eventually they will reach the ends...? Thanks for any and all help.


cerezha said:


> Halley - Have deep respect to Mike Bush and really think that all his advises are really good. From another hand, in beekeeping, it is always that the same thing could be achieved using different ways... For my hives, I do not use thinner frames. My initial rationale was to have a slightly bigger space between frames (bees), so varroa will have a space to fell directly into my screened bottom. It is more difficult to achieve when bee-streets are more crowded... I think my approach is OK in So California because it is warm here. With your new nucs, I personally would just stay with conservative approach: move all nuc's frames (as they were in the nuc!) in the center of the box and surround them with foundationless frames. Close the box and leave them alone at least for 7-10 days. Let them to be at home. Watch them from outside (any pollen delivered?). If everything going well and bees building up the comb and there are three (or more) full frames with capped brood - than, I would gradually insert empty foundationless frame in the center of the nest. Let them build, add another one and sop on. I would not add 2nd box with empty foundationless frames - in my hands, it did not work well. My bees prefer gradual expansion. See, every person has its own approach! Good luck with your bees - post a pictures!!!


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



Halley L. Hart said:


> ... I am worried that the extra space below will chill them...


 It is not only cold, they do not like a huge empty spaces, which sounded contradictory to what they have in nature (huge cavity?). I mean, when they are established, than, it may be OK, but for new bees in the new beehive - I would give them a little bit homier place. It is all about individual specifics. One of my beehives (vertical) ignored empty box for months and I was stupid enough to forgot what needs to be done - checkerboarding - put every other frame from the full box into the empty one and fill up the rest with empty frames. I learned, that I could add frames only gradually. But it does not matter that your bees are the same.

As for honey management - if you wish to give them honey - put the honey frame in position 1 or 8 and add empty foundationless frames between honey and frames from the nuc. When all frames are drawn, and frames 1 & 8 partially full, it is time to decide what to do next. Basically, you have two options: (1) to keep bees in the one box or (2) expand the hive by adding a second box. #2 would be necessary if you have a really good flow and your bees are booming. If they are not - #1 would be conservative decision. If #1 - remove frame with honey from the side and add a frame in the center - you could do it many times. In #2 - you really need to consult with local people, how they do. I personally would do checkerboarding again if conditions are good for that.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

Rangarajan Sudarsan, Cody Thompson, Peter G. Kevan, Hermann J. Eberl (2012)
Flow currents and ventilation in Langstroth beehives due to brood thermoregulation efforts of honeybees
Journal of Theoretical Biology 295, 168-193.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publications/JTB-PAPER-Sudarsanetal-2011.pdf


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> ...Flow currents and ventilation in Langstroth beehives due to brood thermoregulation efforts of honeybees...[/url]


 Very long paper... I do not think, it is applicable to my situation: (1) screened bottom; (2) I recognize two layers of bees between frames - each for its own side of the frame. In paper they model bees as a porous plug completely blocking the whole space between frames. I do not think it is realistic approximation. I think, more proper way would be to model each frame as a surface with two "heating pads" attached and space between them... in such scenario, convectional component would be more noticeable. Again, the model did not count that in winter, the density of bees is much higher than in summer...


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



cerezha said:


> It is not only cold, they do not like a huge empty spaces, which sounded contradictory to what they have in nature (huge cavity?).


What I wanted to say, before the computer crashed, is, that the study shows...I cite:
(b) the routing of the flow at lower Tamb is seen to heat the air entering the beehive before it enters into the bee space. *This heating up is enhanced by the vortices and counter current flow setup present in the space between the frames in brood chamber and the bottom board*;

And this is what many other beekeepers and myself do experience, that a space below the bottom and brood box is beneficial. Mustn't be a full box, but 8 cm height is enough to be beneficial. 

All other ends, the upper part, sides and so, they do not like much of empty space and fill it with comb. Bottom is different.


----------



## hlhart2014

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*

So how do you set this space up...screened bottom board?QUOTE=BernhardHeuvel;918781]What I wanted to say, before the computer crashed, is, that the study shows...I cite:
(b) the routing of the flow at lower Tamb is seen to heat the air entering the beehive before it enters into the bee space. *This heating up is enhanced by the vortices and counter current flow setup present in the space between the frames in brood chamber and the bottom board*;

And this is what many other beekeepers and myself do experience, that a space below the bottom and brood box is beneficial. Mustn't be a full box, but 8 cm height is enough to be beneficial. 

All other ends, the upper part, sides and so, they do not like much of empty space and fill it with comb. Bottom is different.[/QUOTE]


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> ...they do not like much of empty space and fill it with comb. Bottom is different.


 Make sense. This 8 cm spacer has a name (forgot) and many beekeepers use it. It perfectly fits into natural hive design - vertical cavity with empty space at the bottom. As for air circulation- screened bottom could affect these patterns you were talking about. It would be interested to see a model how screened bottom affected the air circulation inside the hive. Again, screened bottoms are different. Mine, for instance, is double bottom - one screen than 1.5 cm gap and than solid board. In addition, the gap is closed from the entrance side. So, it means, that the opening for fresh air is small and it's opposed to the entrance. I have to admit that my bees never beard or show any other signs of discomfort from the heat or weather. I noticed, that when it is too cold (well, in California), bees created a "blanket" from their bodies and block the screen entirely. They are very smart! Similarly, they closed a top entrance with wax, when they decided they do not need it. It was opened for while...


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*

My bees need more space. The horizontal hive got another deep box - yes, *oldtimer*, they DO expand vertically when they wanted and have a chance! Horizontal part of the hive, which is not under the top boxes contains nectar and honey with some 1/2 done combs. The part, which was under the top box and top box itself were all brood! Now they got another deep box on top of the first one. These two deep boxes were checker-boarded with my new-design top bars (with the sides). Bees behaved extremely well, no head bumps at all! Another vertical hive just got another box with checker-boarding again. These girls were quite protective, which is great - it was a weak hive for while and now they feel more confident! I am posting some pictures of the frames from the deep horizontal hive. Mediums-vertical - beautiful comb, but we have already million of similar pictures above.


----------



## rhaldridge

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*

Hey Sergey,

my bees in the long hive seem to be doing well. They've drawn out several frames, and seem to be raising a lot of brood. I'm waiting for a package of small cell bees to get here for the second hive.

























I have to say that beekeepers who use foundation are missing out on a great pleasure. It's truly fascinating to see the bees doing exactly what bees do.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*



rhaldridge said:


> ... I have to say that beekeepers who use foundation are missing out on a great pleasure. It's truly fascinating to see the bees doing exactly what bees do.


Look at this! Absolutely beautiful comb and frames! I absolutely agree that foundationless is so fascinating! It is such pleasure to see literally a "stick" with beautiful full-size comb full of bees attached! Every time I do it - I feel, I am very proud of my bees!
Well, as always with my bees, the horizontal hive is not horizontal anymore... I was tried "scientifically" split my horizontal hive into deep box sitting on top of the horizontal hive... Idea was that these two were separated by double-screen... it was suggested that it's easiest and gentle way of splitting... it did not work at all. I do not know what was happening, but first time ever I saw dead bees at the entrance... so I removed the double-screen and top box become the part of the "house". Girls very enthusiastically filled top box with nectar. I was waiting, when they capped it to remove the box and restore "horizontality"... well - last time I open the hive - they moved nest into this box. I do not know what they did with nectar, but top box now contains brood squeezed between honey - thus, the brood pattern is not such nice as yours - I am jealous! As I posted above, I checker-board top box and now I have two deeps horizontally and two deeps vertically! 

I really like your horizontal hives!

Sergey


----------



## rhaldridge

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*

Thanks, Sergey

Bees are almost as complicated as beekeepers, aren't they?

I really think the long hives are a good idea for beginners like me. It's so simple to work them, since the top boards under the tin roofing are in 8-frame-sized sections, so you never have to open the whole hive to get at one frame. There's always a place to lay your hive tool and smoker. Little danger of rolling the queen, because until the box fills up completely, you can just slide frames down a ways and get plenty of room around the frame you want to pull. It may be my imagination, but I think they're calmer as well-- at least they seem calmer than they did in the yard the nuc came from. No one has offered to sting me yet, though to be fair, I haven't given them much opportunity-- I suit up like a spaceman every time. My wife, who took these snapshots, isn't suited up when I open the hive, and hasn't been bothered at all. Up on legs as these are, there's no bending over to speak of, which makes it easier to be slow and graceful with your movements, so you are less likely to annoy the bees.

I have to admit, before I got my first bees, I was fascinated with them in theory, but now I'm completely smitten. It's relaxing to just sit and watch them at their work, in the same way that watching a tank of tropical fish is relaxing... but better. You don't get honey from fish.


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*



cerezha said:


> Well, as always with my bees, the horizontal hive is not horizontal anymore... I was tried "scientifically" split my horizontal hive into deep box ........top box become the part of the "house". Girls very enthusiastically filled top box with nectar. I was waiting, when they capped it to remove the box and restore "horizontality"... well - last time I open the hive - they moved nest into this box.





rhaldridge said:


> Thanks, Sergey
> Bees are almost as complicated as beekeepers, aren't they?.


I don't think this is very complicated. Bees prefer moving the nest etc vertically, rather than sideways. Cereza is gaining experience, and the bees are teaching him how they like to do things.


----------



## rhaldridge

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*

Another brood pic from long hive:









The new hive has bees now, and they're building comb pretty fast:









I really like my long hives. I think they may make for calmer bees. The second hive, which is completely unrelated to the first, is just as sweet. I installed the package in a 6 frame space, with a bit of comb from the first hive to give the new bees an encouraging start. There were lots of eggs in the new comb just 4 days after installation.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*



Oldtimer said:


> I don't think this is very complicated. Bees prefer moving the nest etc vertically, rather than sideways. Cereza is gaining experience, and the bees are teaching him how they like to do things.


 Hi Oldtimer. Many thanks for our post. Yes, I am learning from my bees all time. Interestingly, this particular hive originally refused to expand vertically and this is why I build for them the horizontal hive. When I tried to split the colony, I placed a deep box with double-screen at the bottom on top of horizontal hive... split did not work at all and eventually, I just removed the double-screen. So, essentially, bees were forced to use the box on top of their horizontal hive... At this point, they just remembered oldtimer's advise to expand vertically. So, they did!  I personally,have no problem with ether horizontal or vertical expansion as long as my bees are happy.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*



rhaldridge said:


> Another brood pic from long hive... I think they may make for calmer bees. ...


 Beautiful pictures! I absolutely agree that horizontal design when all frames available is much less invasive and thus - bees are less agitated. Interesting observation- since my bees are expanding vertically now in my horizontal beehive - they are actually more protective/aggressive.


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*



cerezha said:


> Interestingly, this particular hive originally refused to expand vertically and this is why I build for them the horizontal hive.


 I think when you told me about that a while back, the mistake was adding a foundationless box on top without enough comb built in it. So you would not expect the bees to move into it as they would have to start comb building at the top of the box away from the cluster, something they would only do if really forced.

You haven't said, but I would assume that when you did your "scientific split", you put combs in the box as part of the split. So, when the split failed and you removed the screen, the bees had a bridge of comb available to move onto and work their way to the top of the box, and then start building more combs. That is exactly how to get bees to move into a foundationless box and why it worked so well for you this time.

When what bees do seems complicated, it really isn't. It's more if we think they will do something but they do something different. Then, it's complicated for us. But to them, it makes sense.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*

Welll
Yes and no. I did try many things with that hive- yes, I put an empty box on top, than at the bottom (poor bees),than back on top and put a few deep-size drawn frames in to create the bridge... did not help at all!!! Than,as soon as I moved them in the horizontal hive - they filled up 20 deep "frames" (TBs) within few weeks! The reason I decided to split, because they rich the capacity of the long hive in few weeks and needed more space. Split was pathetic: I chekerboard the broodnest into another deep, which was placed on top with double-screen. After few days, I noticed dead bees - first time ever. Top deep was empty of bees... I removed the double-screen and it become the part of original hive. Few weeks later, I did an inspection and top deep was full of uncapped honey (nectar?) I decided to wait and when it capped - remove it and restore the normal configuration of the hive - horizontal. .. Two weeks later, I discovered the brood in the top box and honey. I could not remove the honey because of brood... I do not use queen-excluder. I just chekerboard the top one - now 2 deeps on the top. As a result, I have two-deep tall and two deep-long beehive in L shape (total 4 deeps!) I am sure, it is very special! Bees are not very happy with this... I am looking for the opportunity to shrink this monster. On top of this - all "frames" are actually top bars - it is scary to move these humongous frames attached only to the top! So far no one broke and all of them perfectly straight, but I want to add some support to the sides of the bars. Since it is hobby - I have a lot of fun with my girls. I am not sure if they agree on this - they are deadly serious and all about business!


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*

Sounds like it's going well, and exactly shows the advantage of being able to add supers.

Shrinking it at this time of year? Be better to add some more supers. Especially as you describe them fitting nectar in among the brood cells, a sign the bees may be thinking about swarming, if you do not add some more room they may shrink themselves for you.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*

I checkerboard them just 2 (?) weeks ago - hopefully they will not swarm now... I am going to check them this week weather permitted (last 2 days were very gloomy). Adding another super scares me - I had last season 6-meds tall monster and I had a nightmares what if earthquake happened... we are expecting a big earthquake ...sometime...
As for flexibility to add supers to the horizontal beehive - yes, I agree that this was good idea. I incorporated this possibility when made the long hive. It is really a lot of fun to keep bees, made own equipment... eat honey


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*

Well checkerboarding a split is probably the wrong thing and could have contributed to it failing, best if making a split to keep everything together. However when you pulled the divider it would have been just right for the bees to move into the super.

However just that you checkerboarded that box does not mean they will not swarm, going by what you describe.

Don't worry about the hive being 6 mediums tall, that's only the equivalent of around 4 deeps, not a big hive, my honey producing hives go 5 to 6 deeps tall, no worries, even in an earthquake. There has been beekeepers in my country having hives knocked over in an earthquake but it has to be a big one that can also demolish buildings. None of mine have ever been knocked over in an earthquake.


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## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*



Oldtimer said:


> Well checkerboarding a split is probably the wrong thing and could have contributed to it failing, best if making a split to keep everything together. ..


 Yes, I agree, it was mistake. 
As for earthquake - my bees are on the narrow terrace and could easily flip over... I really have nightmares how all boxes with bees roll down to the street and cloud of angry bees... very visual. 5-6 deeps - WOW!!!! Than, I need to make more hardware - I am running out of deeps. How big earthquakes you have? We suppose to have 7 or 9 (forgot) within 30-years time-frame.


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*

You can't restrict your hive just incase there's a monster earthquake, live like that you'll never do anything!

How big earthquakes we have? We have everything from small to big, last extra big one was couple years ago, really tore the ground up and killed (from memory) roughly 200 people (should be able to google Christchurch earthquake)

Yes my honey making hives go 5 or 6 deeps high, earthquakes or not. A Beesource member from Canada just came over & helped me harvest around 2 months ago the hives were choca, really heavy, I'm getting older & very much appreciated the help.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*

Is any particular reason, you prefer deeps for supers? It looks like, there in US commercial people use mostly mediums. It is really sweet that beesource member helped you to collect the honey-crop. You are heading into the winter now, right? Beekeepers are really nice people (if not talking about neonics ) I wish to have an opportunity to work bees with real expert - unfortunately, it is unlikely until I've retired. At that time, I probably will made all my mistakes and mentor would not be necessary... but who knows... I wish your bees sleep well in winter and wake up in spring full of energy!


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## Oldtimer

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*



cerezha said:


> Is any particular reason, you prefer deeps for supers?


Just economy, plus less work/handling. And, it's easier on the bees than having small combs with lots of breaks in the hive.

I would be surprised if most US commercials used mediums.


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## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*



Oldtimer said:


> ... it's easier on the bees than having small combs with lots of breaks in the hive.


 Make sense. 



Oldtimer said:


> I would be surprised if most US commercials used mediums.


I do not know... I saw beehives in commercial apiary when they did bee-classes. They used one deep for brood and the rest was mediums. But, who knows, may be it was migratory setup? It was relatively small commercial operation (500 hives?). Also, it was SoCal.


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013*

Ha Ha well one apiary does not mean most commercial hives LOL. 

There is a commercial guy in my country uses mediums, but he's small, and one of those guys who likes to do everything different.


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## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*

Did some inspection today. There are few pictures from the vertical hive. I did not dig into horizontal - they have plenty of space. Vertical got another box, they are booming.


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*



cerezha said:


> Vertical got another box, they are booming.


Welcome to the dark side.


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*



Oldtimer said:


> Welcome to the dark side.


 As usual, my bees do what they wanted to do. Horizontal hive with vertical "attachment" is not growing at the same speed as another hive. Interestingly, during the inspection, I do find more activity in the horizontal part than in top vertical... Horizontal part, which is on the side (from vertical) is nearly full of honey/nectar. Mostly 50% capped honey. I think, this two-directional hive is confusing to bees - it should be ether horizontal or vertical. I am thinking, may be I should split by complete removing the vertical part (2 deeps)? The problem is that I could not place a split far away from the mother-hive

Also, it looks like, girls do not like my new design for the TBs with sides...


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*



cerezha said:


> Horizontal part, which is on the side (from vertical) is nearly full of honey/nectar. Mostly 50% capped honey. I think, this two-directional hive is confusing to bees .


Yes I think you are quite right. While the hive stays in the current configuration, I'm pretty sure the brood nest will tend to be towards the bottom of the vertical part of the hive, with honey at the top, and to the side of the vertical part that is not below the vertical part. If they expand the size of the brood area, it will tend to be into the next box above, and the vertical part that is out to the side will be used for pollen and honey, with maybe some brood towards the middle.


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## rhaldridge

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*

Sergey, have you read what Michael Bush has to say about splits? If I remember correctly, he has various strategies for making splits and keeping them in the same yard.

I took some pictures today of the comb that my new package has made since I installed them a week ago. I thought this was a pretty image:









These are Wolf Creek small cell bees. So far so good.


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## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*



Oldtimer said:


> Yes I think you are quite right. While the hive stays in the current configuration, I'm pretty sure the brood nest will tend to be towards the bottom of the vertical part of the hive, with honey at the top, and to the side of the vertical part that is not below the vertical part. If they expand the size of the brood area, it will tend to be into the next box above, and the vertical part that is out to the side will be used for pollen and honey, with maybe some brood towards the middle.


 You are absolutely right! Currently, the brood is occupied two lover deeps, which are vertical part (lowest deep is also a part of the original horizontal hive). Honey is on the side (from vertical) and they still have space (for more honey, I guess) in the top vertical box. If I decided to do a split, I will remove two upper vertical deeps, which leave a lower deep with brood for horizontal hive. It would be relatively equal split in my opinion. Do you think, I should try or leave them alone for now?


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*



rhaldridge said:


> Sergey, have you read what Michael Bush has to say about splits? If I remember correctly, he has various strategies for making splits and keeping them in the same yard.
> 
> I took some pictures today of the comb that my new package has made since I installed them a week ago. I thought this was a pretty image:
> 
> View attachment 5368
> 
> 
> These are Wolf Creek small cell bees. So far so good.


Oooo
Beautiful bees and comb! Looks like they are working very hard! One week? I could not believe!

As for split, yes, I read Michael Bush, but I need to read again. Last time I did everything right (in my opinion ), only bees did not cooperate - I guess, most of them returned to original hive and some were killed... because mother-colony attacked the split (no robbing)... I guess, it was not equal split, and one part was much weaker than another. The good thing is that it worked as a good remedy against swarming. I did not see any swarm preparation at all. Bees are so fascinating! Many thanks for beautiful foundationless pictures!


----------



## Oldtimer

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*



cerezha said:


> If I decided to do a split, I will remove two upper vertical deeps, which leave a lower deep with brood for horizontal hive. It would be relatively equal split in my opinion. Do you think, I should try or leave them alone for now?


Do this, and it will work.

First find the queen. But if you can't, put a queen excluder between the two boxes that have brood. 5 days later have a look, the box that has eggs is where the queen is, make your split using the other box.

Just make the split using one box, with a few combs of brood in the middle, and other combs each side. Bees that are older than 2 weeks have probably started flying and learned the hive location, and will return to the old hive. The only bees that will stay are younger than 2 weeks. If you get bees from the central brood nest in a normal hive, around 1/2 of them will be younger than 2 weeks. So what you have to do is shake twice as many bees into your split as what you want to end up with, taking the bees from the central brood nest. Around 1/2 will go home. That is why you don't have too much brood in the new split just incase you don't end up with enough bees to cover it.

The field bees that go home to the original hive, can also tell the bees in their hive that there is another hive nearby to rob. So you have to make the entrance to your split very small. VERY small. The young bees that stay behind are not up to guard bee age yet and the split is easy for other bees to rob, so a small entrance is extremely important. Do not feed the split as that will encourage robbing. They should have some comb honey, that's it. One week later the bees will be up to guard duty age and you can make the entrance bigger if they need that, and in another week you can feed, if they need it.

If the split ends up smaller than you want, no worries. After a couple of weeks you can start adding combs of hatching brood to it, from the other hive, until it is up to the strength you want.

What's happening about the queen? You will introduce one? Or you want them to make one?


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## rhaldridge

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*



cerezha said:


> Oooo
> Beautiful bees and comb! Looks like they are working very hard! One week? I could not believe!


Yes, I was pretty surprised too, especially since I was suffering severe anxiety about having directly released the queen. My research convinced me this was the best thing to do, but as a beginner, I always lack confidence in my decisions. I guess I was lucky this time.

Here's a link to Michael Bush's info on splits.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm

The local guy I got my first nuc from was trying to feed up a couple of monster hives to take to the river bottom for the tupelo flow. The day my wife and I went up to pick up the nuc, he was kind enough to take us around his yard and open a few of his hives for us-- he knew we had no experience. At any rate, his monster hives were full of swarm cells, so he said he'd have to go through them at length and tear them down. I'd read that it was pretty hard, if not impossible to divert a hive once it had decided to swarm, but I tried to interest him in the concept of a cut-down split, as Michael Bush describes. Well, he had 40 years of experience, and I had none, so you know how that went. I talked to him a few days later, and half his bees had departed to the trees.

But his nuc is going gangbusters for us, drawing beautiful straight comb, and bringing in lots of nectar and pollen.


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## RedDave

cerezha said:


> I got a nice picture of my beehive. ... and some new frames!


Beautiful Photos! What program do you use to upload photos? I always have problems doing that.

Dave


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*

Oldtimer - it is so nice of you to give me such detailed description. I definitely want girls to rise a new queen, because entire point is to keep local genetics -girls are treatment-free for 4 years already (2 with me) . You made it very clear what was wrong with my first attempt to split - I did not shake enough young bees and most bees migrated back into mother-hive. I am not sure how I could use queen excluder - hopefully it could sit on top of my "bars" in the Lang boxes. Many thanks for such great support and education (always appreciated).


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## cerezha

RedDave said:


> ... What program do you use to upload photos? I always have problems doing that.Dave


Dave, thanks you for nice words! As for download at beesource - it is tricky. You need to set "Basic editor" in Forum Actions => General settings => bottom of the page, Miscellaneous Options - Basic Editor.

When done this, in the post,choose "Go Advanced",click "Manage Attachments" => Upload Files from your Computer => Browse =>choose a picture (one at the time ) ==>Open ==> Upload, wait until text disappeared from the browse window - it indicated that you could go ahead and choose another picture

When finish uploading pictures, close "Manage Attachments" window, Submit reply. Done! Note that this way, the size of your picture is unimportant, software will shrink the picture to desired size. You do not need to resize the picture prior uploading! Good luck!


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*



rhaldridge said:


> ... I always lack confidence in my decisions. ...


 Yes, me too! But, you did great! My "special" problem is that I am in the center of the city and limited to 2 hives... my neighbor discovered illegal nuc, which I put under cherry-tree for pollination...big scandal... In my case any experimentation (split etc) could mean that I may lost 50% of my hives (only one ), so I really try to make balanced decisions, so at least to keep two hives in good shape. Splits to me is a problem - I need to figure out what to do with extra illegal hive if it is successful (I was so relieved when my previous split failed... no worry about extra hive) ... We already distributed bees in our neighborhood - I am concerned that our bees may compete for resources. I do not know how many beehives could sustain in the city. Anyway, beekeeping in the city is entire different story. Even inspection I could do only on Tuesdays weather permitted, because other days are not suitable for number of reasons: gardeners, parties, gas-meter people etc. 

Based on your beautiful pictures - you should be very proud of your bees and yourself -you did great job!


----------



## shannonswyatt

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*

Sergey, go to your neighbor on the other side of the neighbor who raised a stink and ask him if you can keep a hive in his or her yard, maybe even pay them a little rent money. I'm sure your area can support a lot of bees based on your results so far. And it will teach your busy body neighbor to mind their own business!

I hear the gas meter guys love bees!


----------



## mathesonequip

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*

do not leave out the nighbors behind you or the nice folks across the street. chances are pretty good the rat next door is not generaly a neighborhood favorite.


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## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*

I have 6 immediate neighbors (weird property split by my wife's grandma). 2 have hives (plus us); one - empty lot (great bee potential); one never complained; another is curious and my bees love his Jacuzzi (plenty of water at my place), but he has horrible barking dogs, so I have something to complain if necessary also; last one - extremely noisy old couple, who complains about everything... Another day they discovered my hidden under cherry tree nuc. They immediately complained that they could not do weeds because my bees interfere. Actually, I have my ways with them - I show them fruits on the cherry-tree and explained that bees pollinate the tree. They immediately become exited. Than I very politely and carefully deliver to them the news, that they actually surrounded by beekeepers - 3 families have now bees! They were perplexed... old woman was upset - how she could complain about bees to me if she do not know if it is my bee? I delicately suggested that she could choose somebody else for complains... her response was hilarious: "How you do not understand that those neighbors are horrible and very rude - she could not complain to them, I am only a decent (?) person, who politely listen her complains." They got their honey but I think, I need to find a better place for my unofficial nuc (doing great!). Lady is old and really not well - if my bee stings her, they will accuse me in murder...

As for expansion - I am reluctant to do so because I have a lot of other stuff to do plus full-time job. I discovered that bee-hobby required much more attention than any other hobbies I ever had. To me, perhaps the ideal situation would be 3 officially permitted hives and 2 nucs - it is a lot of bees in small place! But it will add some flexibility. 

Gas-meter guys are actually very nice - apparently, they have a special code for situation, when they have no access to the meter because of animal. Originally it was for dogs, but now they use it for bees also. They just put this code and come other day. No charges for this.


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## rhaldridge

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*



cerezha said:


> Yes, me too! But, you did great! My "special" problem is that I am in the center of the city and limited to 2 hives... my neighbor discovered illegal nuc, which I put under cherry-tree for pollination...big scandal... In my case any experimentation (split etc) could mean that I may lost 50% of my hives (only one ), so I really try to make balanced decisions, so at least to keep two hives in good shape. Splits to me is a problem - I need to figure out what to do with extra illegal hive if it is successful (I was so relieved when my previous split failed... no worry about extra hive) ... We already distributed bees in our neighborhood - I am concerned that our bees may compete for resources. I do not know how many beehives could sustain in the city. Anyway, beekeeping in the city is entire different story. Even inspection I could do only on Tuesdays weather permitted, because other days are not suitable for number of reasons: gardeners, parties, gas-meter people etc. !


Wow! You are persisting in the face of difficulties that would discourage me.

I worried about whether I would have enough forage in our little neighborhood by the bay. But when I talked to one of the local bee gurus who has a yard out in the country, he told me that I'd make twice the honey per hive that he does. Apparently in old established neighborhoods like this, there are so many flowering trees and bushes and flowers that bees can do very well. It may be the same in your neighborhood.



cerezha said:


> Based on your beautiful pictures - you should be very proud of your bees and yourself -you did great job!


That's very kind of you to say, but I've just started, so I expect there will be many ups and downs before I can actually call myself a beekeeper. But I'm certainly enjoying it!


----------



## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*



rhaldridge said:


> ... Apparently in old established neighborhoods like this, there are so many flowering trees and bushes and flowers that bees can do very well. It may be the same in your neighborhood....


 Yes, this is true. Somebody told me that one mature flowering tree is equal to acres (?) of "normal" flowers for the bees. Also, in city, bees have no problem with water. But still, we have to be aware, that our bees could compete with native species.


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## hlhart2014

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*

Hi Cerezha,
I corresponded a few weeks back. I have a 10 frame and 8 frame. I decided to experiment with frameless foundation in the 8 frame. I took my first deep and put foundationless frames on the ends and then right before I went on a week's vacation put another deep below it with all foundationless frames(using dowels for guides...no wires). I checked today and here is one of the end frames in the 1st box..beautiful!..the other end frame they were just starting..caught them festooning..very cute). I looked in the bottom box and they were just starting in the middle frame. It has been very warm here and the nectar flow is on. Here are some pics of the one frame.












.


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## cerezha

*Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013*



Halley L. Hart said:


> .. I checked today and here is one of the end frames in the 1st box..beautiful!..the other end frame they were just starting..caught them festooning..very cute). I looked in the bottom box and they were just starting in the middle frame. ...


 Halley, great job! See, it works! Congratulation with first AND perfect foundationless frame!!!! It is absolutely beautiful! As a general precaution, I would add new foundationless frames one by one and place them between already drawn frames (foundation or not). This way bees understood your intentions better. Also, placing the whole foundationless box is a quite challenge, but your girls looks like handled it beautifully!


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection May 10, 2013*

Well, I had very nice beginning. My horizontal (sort of) hive is doing well. They decided do not expand vertically anymore - they are busy filling up the deep with nectar and honey. I took only two pictures this time, because I was preoccupied with this gigantic frames. Since last inspection, they build and filled up 3 or 4 new bars with additional support at the sides - you could see the glimpse of the side support in the picture. I removed second deep, because it was completely empty. Next inspection, I think, I may add a medium below the deep or just remove the deep if it is ready. Bees were very docile even when I removed these gigantic frames...

Another hive is entirely different story - I just need to add a super. But I need a few frames with drawn comb to put into empty foundationless box. The plan was to take a few drawn frames from the existing box and put them into new one... Well, I was stung through *PM vented beesuit * quite a few times (6?)!!! Pigeon Mountain - did you hear me? It is 1 season old suit. So, I was forced to conclude my mission quickly. Girls followed me and made impressive show to my wife, who watched from inside the house - sorry, no pictures.  In the morning I watched the same hive from 2' distance standing literally next to the entrance. I guess, our backyard will be unavailable for a few days.


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## rhaldridge

*Re: Inspection May 10, 2013*

Good grief-- those are big beautiful combs of honey!


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## D1here

*Re: Inspection May 10, 2013*

WOW!!!!! nice looking frames of comb,honey and bees.................TONS of information to help ignorant beeks such as myself................thanks for passing on ALL of the knowledge.....


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## rhaldridge

*Re: Inspection May 10, 2013*

My wife took some pictures yesterday. The quality is not high, because the light wasn't so good, but I thought this was a pretty frame of new brood:










And this is a frame of older brood that the bees have made into pollen storage. I can't get over the richness of the colors. It's like some kind of beautiful old brocade. One of these days I'm going to send a better shot like this to my daughter the artist, and see what she makes of it:


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection May 10, 2013*

OOOO
really nice pictures and comb just perfect! Second picture is quite impressive - full of bees! Fresh capped brood always amused me - it has this velvet soft caps.


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## cerezha

*Re: Horizontal hive inspection May 27, 2013*

Today, I was trying to remove vertical extension from my horizontal hive, remaining of my unsuccessful split, which is now mostly honey. It was experimental and 1.3x deep (Hx1.3). Previously I had a problem - honeycomb fell because of weight. Today, I discovered the same problem (slightly smaller). So,finally, I rescued 3 full bars and one collapsed. Since, at the end of operation everything was honey, I decided to finish this project later. Since honey everywhere, I had limited ability to take a pictures even girls were very cooperative. The bottom line is that I need to add sides to my bars if I want to use deep boxes. Sides are not necessary for mediums. By the way, 2 frames with honey have sides, which means I've installed them on May 10, now they are full of honey. Tonight I crushed honey comb and spent a few hours rescuing bees stuck in broken comb, still alive. Update: 3 frames = 6 kilos of beautiful raw honey.


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## shannonswyatt

*Re: Horizontal hive inspection May 27, 2013*

I've been considering using a top bar type bar for swarm traps to with short sides to prevent comb attachments to the sides of the boxes. The width would be 1 inch. I was thinking about using 3 inch sides and then using them in mediums if a swarm is captured. The sides would be 1 3/8 inches to give the be space the way a standard lang bar would. Will the stubby sides prevent the bees from attaching comb to the sides of the boxes, or will I need to go longer side?


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## cerezha

*Re: Horizontal hive inspection May 27, 2013*

Well, 
It is a philosophical question - does not matter what we decide, bees may decide differently. In my experience, bees attach (if they wanted) even standard full frames. Thus, I decided to experiment with bars if standard frames sometime did not work as expected. In my case, I need sides for honey-comb stability. Deep-size comb full of honey is just too heavy. I tried 1x9" sides (no bottom) in deep box - bees still occasionally attach it to the walls even with bee-space, but it is much better to manipulate sided bars. My impression is that "old" bee-space did not work as expected - bees behave differently, size of the bee different, management different...
Thanks for visiting and good luck with your project - I think it should work!


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## cerezha

*Re: Horizontal hive inspection May 27, 2013*



shannonswyatt said:


> .. Will the stubby sides prevent the bees from attaching comb to the sides of the boxes, or will I need to go longer side?


 I think it could work - post pictures!


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## shannonswyatt

*Re: Horizontal hive inspection May 27, 2013*

I will. I'm not going to be using them this year, so it will be a while.


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## cerezha

*Re: Horizontalhive fate June 11, 2013*

The plan was to try to remove the vertical attachment (super ?) to the horizontal hive. It did not work as planned - first, my tool to cut wax between wall and comb broke and second ANOTHER honeycomb collapsed...  So, I have a lot of honey, but it is difficult to get it. Meantime, girls are working hard in all directions. The bar with the brood was damaged by my tool. I hate this gigantic bars, could not wait to remove them. Interestingly, ~20% shorter (real deep size) in horizontal part of the hive are doing great - no problem at all!


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## Cloverdale

*Re: Horizontalhive fate June 11, 2013*

Wow Sergey, your bees and comb and honey look wonderful, you are doing something right! I could just bite right into that comb it looks so GOOD!


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## cerezha

*Re: Horizontalhive fate June 11-25, 2013*

Well
I have to admit - the girls won!!!! I was in full preparedness today to remove this deep box from the top of horizontal hive ...well, as you could see, it did not work at all! Instead they got a medium on the top of the deep


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## rhaldridge

*Re: Horizontalhive fate June 11-25, 2013*

Just got back from a month in the North Country, and checked my horizontal boomer. That hive is capping a lot of honey-- I took my first frame of honey and got almost 2 quarts of honey from it. The bees made that frame way too fat, and there were so many other frames of honey that I couldn't resist.

Anyway, picture of the long hive open:










And a frame of foundationless almost completely capped honey:


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## cerezha

*Re: Horizontalhive fate June 11-25, 2013*

Look at this! Amusing!!!!!
My girls have made honeycomb very thick too!


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## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Horizontalhive fate June 11-25, 2013*

The reinvention of the "tub hive" :wink: 

http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/KarlSimshaeuser_TrogbeuteT120_script.pdf


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## cerezha

*Re: Horizontalhive fate June 11-25, 2013*

Basically, it is similar to what I have now, just a box, long hive (with vertical attachment). I do not understand, why it's called "tub-hive"? By the way, how is your bees, Bernhard?


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## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Horizontalhive fate June 11-25, 2013*

Bees doing well. One apiary was suffering from pesticide spraying. Canola got sprayed with Thiacloprid. During full blossoming and sunshine. Thiacloprid was found in the pollen from those bees in laboratory tests. Bees recover right now. Hope not to loose all of them since they were weakened pretty much. First loosing all the flight bees on one day, then some brood but not much. One queen failed and was superseded. (Young queen from 2012, was pretty strong before.) Removed all pollen and bee bread, dumped the honey. 

But in all other apiaries the bees do well.


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## cerezha

*Small inspection, July 16, 2013*

I just checked on my bees and collected some 10 kilos of gorgeous honey.


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## rhaldridge

*Re: Small inspection, July 16, 2013*

I harvested a couple more frames of honey from the big hive:









This was the prettiest comb yet, I think.


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## D1here

*Re: Small inspection, July 16, 2013*

DANG!!!!! yall make a man wanna like the screen


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## cerezha

*Re: Small inspection, July 16, 2013*



rhaldridge said:


> ...This was the prettiest comb yet, I think.


 Hey
How you train your bees to do such perfect comb? Mine are on the "rustic" side, functional but not perfect  and I even do not want to think what is happened right now in my Lang - I guess, they had a few free moments for creativity: one comb has been split in three festoons. Festoons nicely attached to the bottom of the box and side frames (bars) like a flower ...  I would need to remove the entire super.


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## mmmooretx

*Re: Small inspection, July 16, 2013*

Sergey,
I seriously owe you some pictures! I did my first harvest on 5 July and I need to edit the video. I did crush and strain, but got 65 lbs. of fantastic honey, kind of spicy citrus overtones from 2 hives. I sold a bunch of my hunting gear, got off the lease, and have a Maxant 3100P on order, maybe 3-4 more weeks for delivery.... My 3 new hives, Buckfest started 6 Apr., are outstanding producers. They have filled 3 med. supers as their brood chambers, and each has a filled honey super (all foundationless). I added a second super to hive 6 two weeks ago and will add one to hives 4 & 5 this weekend. However we have started our summer derth about 2 weeks ago so do not expect any more until mid Sept. with last harvest mid Nov. Our first freeze is early Dec.


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## cerezha

*Re: Small inspection, July 16, 2013*

Mike, it is great news! Yes, you owe some pictures of your honey, hives, foundationless frames!!! It is so exiting to have bees! Take care,


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## cerezha

*end of October-November 2013*

Well
I sort of abandon the _beesource_. There is short update:
My bees are doing great. All beehives are completely foundationless and "frameless" - instead frames, I am using top bars of my own design. Officially, I am permitted to have only two beehives (city requirement). These are my production hives. I am collecting in average 10 kilos of honey per 2-3 month "Sunny California" cycle. One hive is vertical design and another - horizontal. I am trying to compare them side-by-side. 
It seems to me that vertical one is a winner (as many of you predicted).


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## Oldtimer

*Re: Small inspection, July 16, 2013*

What is the red thing between each super? And why are the entrances so small?


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## cerezha

*end of October-November 2013*

O, hi Oldtimer!
You were right that vertical design is more efficient!
As for your questions. Red thing are my top-bars, which now completely replace the classical frames. Now - I am frameless. On the picture, you could see how it works for horizontal hive.

As for entrances - originally, I had some problem with robbing in the horizontal hive (suspecting vertical as a robber). As a result, all entrances were reduced to minimal as on the pictures above. I noticed that bees with small entrances were much calmer (make sense) in all hives. So, when robbing faded away, I increase the entrance but not too much - it is ~3" now. Bees are very calm and there are no bees at the porch at night. I did experiment - open entrance to normal and immediately got bees on the porch and they were agitated. I guess, for my situation, this entrance size is optimal. 

How is your bees? Wintered well?


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## Oldtimer

*Re: end of October-November 2013*

Hmm well those entrances might be OK for winter but next season when you see them getting a bit crowded they'll do better if you open them up some more, small entrances also make them more inclined to swarm. The long hive might be OK how it is, but the tall hive will better handle a bigger front door.

Yes my own bees doing well although had major swarming problems due to extended dearth after early flow. But very pleased with things over all, selling bees flat out, just done the accounts made record money in October.


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## shannonswyatt

*Re: end of October-November 2013*

What is the depth of the supers? They look pretty deep, are you having any problems with comb collapse or attachment to the side of the box?


----------



## cerezha

*Re: end of October-November 2013*



Oldtimer said:


> Hmm well those entrances might be OK for winter but next season when you see them getting a bit crowded they'll do better if you open them up some more, small entrances also make them more inclined to swarm. The long hive might be OK how it is, but the tall hive will better handle a bigger front door...


Many thanks for advise - I did not think about swarming. In fact, they did not swarm at all this year. I shall monitor them more carefully. For now, they seems OK - I do not see much traffic jam at the entrance. When I opened up entrances completely - bees actively used only 3-4" length of the entrance. Thus, I revert to smaller entrance.


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## cerezha

*Re: end of October-November 2013*



shannonswyatt said:


> What is the depth of the supers? They look pretty deep, are you having any problems with comb collapse or attachment to the side of the box?


 Yes, I had a huge problem with collapsing (what a mess)! Problem has been solved by adding thin metal sides to the top bars. The bar on the picture above in fact has sides. It is necessary only for deep-frame format. For mediums, sides are not necessary. As for comb attachments - it depends. In most cases bees obey "bee-space". They attached deep-size honeycomb in horizontal hive when I was using only top-bars. It has perfect sense, because comb was heavy and bees were smarter than me. When I start using sides for deep-format, bees stop attachments - it is so easy to work with long hive! For medium bars - they do attachments rarely. The general rule - completed honey-comb should not stay in the hive for longer than a month. After that, bees could do all kinds of art on the comb. I have a special tool to cut comb from the sides. Usually, if it cut once, they did not attach again (have no idea why).


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## Jackson

that's very good harvest ! what brand of suit is that you're using? might be good for us too.
Do you have to level your hive to make sure the combs come off straight down?


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## Jackson

*Re: Small inspection, July 16, 2013*

Anyone tried having their bees draw comb on a wired foundationless frame? Would the wire help hold the comb on the frame better enough that you could actually harvest the honey on the extractor without it falling off the frame since it's foundationless?


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## cerezha

*November 2013*



Jackson said:


> what brand of suit is that you're using? might be good for us too.


 Hi Jackson! I am using Pigeons Mnt. ventilated beesuit, but I am not very happy with it. It starts deteriorating after second season. From another hand, I was looking for suit to my wife and probably will buy another PM ventilated suit because could not find better option.


Jackson said:


> Do you have to level your hive to make sure the combs come off straight down?


 When I installed beehives, yes, I leveled them, but not so precise. I would imagine that soil may move and level is off now. Nevertheless, there is no problem with comb unless it is really huge comb.


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## cerezha

*Re: Small inspection, July 16, 2013*



Jackson said:


> Anyone tried having their bees draw comb on a wired foundationless frame? ...


 I used to have foundationless frames with wires (leftovers from normal Langs). Since I crush-and-strain, it was difficult to use them. I know that Michael Bush from this forum extracts foundationless frames on the regular basis. I doubt he is using a wire. If comb is attached to all 4 sides of the frame - it is amazingly strong! When foundationless, bees have a tendency to build very thick honeycomb - it may be a problem with centrifugal extraction - uneven thickness of the comb. But look at the pictures above in this thread - many people posted pictures of the wonderful absolutely straight honeycomb!


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## Jackson

*Re: Small inspection, July 16, 2013*

thanks for the quick reply, i just started with beekeeping and was thinking of foundationless frames for better varroa mites control, I got very inspired reading your thread when you switched to foundationless  
Did the bees built on the wired frames just as it did on the unwired? I mean did it have any effect as to the comb shape and size? 
From your experiment, how did you encourage bees to build on all sides of the frame or did they just do so as long as the frame is 4 cornered?
Did they build a lot of drone cells on the brood frame and did it had any effect on your hive? But I read though that you didn't encounter any swarming problems  
Thank you  



cerezha said:


> I used to have foundationless frames with wires (leftovers from normal Langs). Since I crush-and-strain, it was difficult to use them. I know that Michael Bush from this forum extracts foundationless frames on the regular basis. I doubt he is using a wire. If comb is attached to all 4 sides of the frame - it is amazingly strong! When foundationless, bees have a tendency to build very thick honeycomb - it may be a problem with centrifugal extraction - uneven thickness of the comb. But look at the pictures above in this thread - many people posted pictures of the wonderful absolutely straight honeycomb!


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## Jackson

cerezha said:


> ...... All these true only for honey-part of the hive. The nest part - is a mess!


Hi Sergey, does it mean using foundationless, your brood frames are always or almost always sitcking to each other or cross combs?


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## cerezha

*Re: Small inspection, July 16, 2013*



Jackson said:


> thanks for the quick reply, i just started with beekeeping and was thinking of foundationless frames for better varroa mites control, I got very inspired reading your thread when you switched to foundationless


Hi Jackson
Foundationless is tricky. I do not know how much experience with normal beekeeping you have. For novice, I would suggest to start from typical for your area way of beekeeping and than once your bees established you could evolve into foundationless. My theory is that bees actually learned how to use foundationless frame as a guide. They would learn quicker if you could give them an example what is good (a few frames with foundation or pre-made straight comb). At the beginning, it is always advisable to place foundationless between two straight combs. There is really good web-site by Michael Bush - you could learn a lot from this:
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm



Jackson said:


> Did the bees built on the wired frames just as it did on the unwired? I mean did it have any effect as to the comb shape and size?
> From your experiment, how did you encourage bees to build on all sides of the frame or did they just do so as long as the frame is 4 cornered?


I did not notice any problems with wired frames. As for attachments - look on the pictures above posted by the people who uses foundationless frames - you could notice that comb often is not attached to the bottom bar and only partially attached to the sides. This is how bees build naturally. Thus - I figured out that bottom bar is not essential, remove it! Sides - so-so, you could leave them or remove, bees do not care - it is more for your convenience.



Jackson said:


> Did they build a lot of drone cells on the brood frame and did it had any effect on your hive? But I read though that you didn't encounter any swarming problems
> Thank you


 This is really controversial topic. Many believes that bees built comb exclusively for drones on empty foundationless frame(s). It is weird. Yes, first comb they do build on my top bars always has a huge cells, but it is not for drones - it is used for nectar ... than some magic (really) happened - with time, the comb on the same bar is transformed into smaller cells, which is used for honey or brood, not for drones. I was never able to observe this transition - I often see freshly made large cells comb with nectar in it and later the same frame/bar has normal cells. In all my hives drones always occupy just 10-20 cells on the periphery of the brood (sometime honey) frames/bars. Bees did not swarm this year at all. Last year, two hives swarmed once each giving to me two powerful new beehives! As a swarm control measure, I am using "checkerboarding method" developed by WALT WRIGHT Elkton.


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## cerezha

Jackson said:


> Hi Sergey, does it mean using foundationless, your brood frames are always or almost always sitcking to each other or cross combs?


Oooo, it was at the beginning of my bee keeping. It was the original box where bees lived wild for 2 years. I tried to fix it but it was too messy and disturbing to the bees - I leave it as it was  Later, bees moved upstairs and I just removed empty box with completely black combs. Now, my bees have very ordered headquarters. I think, they really learn how to use top-bars as a guide. Honestly, I do not know what is going on in the bottom box of my vertical hive - it is too invasive to disassemble the entire house just to see a couple of frames. Upper nest box (#3) is well ordered. Horizontal hive: since sides addition to the bars - no problem at all. I just checked entire hive today and it was so easy! I could not do the same to my vertical hive - too disturbing.


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## cerezha

*it is time to get ready for Californian "winter", November 5th, 2013*

I did full inspection today. It looks like my bees are ready for the "winter" - they compacted the nest and have enough honey storage. Storage was slightly dispersed in the hive(s) - I consolidated honey frames and reduced empty space. Each hive has 2-3 frames of nectar and quite a bit of brood. On the pictures - some random frames from my today's inspection.


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## cerezha

*My new top-bar design in deep-format*

It looks like bees love these metal sides I added to the top bars for my long hive


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## Jackson

*Re: My new top-bar design in deep-format*

thank you for your so thorough reply Sergey, it's just my first month into beekeeping and I do have a lot to learn. I'm currently using foundations and will continue to do so until I learn enough, but will of course start learning and will closely follow your good lead


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## cerezha

*Re: My new top-bar design in deep-format*

Good luck Jackson with your bees - post pictures!


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## Cloverdale

*Re: My new top-bar design in deep-format*

The frames look wonderful....:thumbsup:


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## Cloverdale

*Re: Inspection May 10, 2013*

Beautiful!


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection May 10, 2013*

Ooo
Thank you. I'll tell bees.


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection May 10, 2013*

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all beekeepers and bees!
My bees are doing very well. They produced quite a bit of honey and enjoyed Christmas decorations.


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## cerezha

*Inspection Jan 28 2014 Happy New Year by the way!*

Hello
It's confirmed that Spring is in our area - wild California Lilac is blooming in my native California plants garden! Bees are very exited!


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014 Happy New Year by the way!*

Myself and bees are doing well. We are treatment-free and it is ours 4th (? I do not remember!) season  So far, bees are healthy, there is no indication of any problems as far as I can tell. My horizontal hive was slow for a while. I attributed this to old (original!!!!) queen - the mother of all beehives around. Girls were reluctant to replace her but they did it a few weeks ago (I think so - I was not introduced yet to Her Majesty). So, the horizontal hive is catching up:


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

Interesting story was happened with another vertical hive, which is situated on the roof - my garden is too small for all my girls 
This hive was robbed - literally all bees were killed in the fight, but they do not let robbers inside the hive! Very honorable bees! I was so disgusted with myself (that I did not noticed earlier) - I just left hive "as is." Than, a few weeks later I noticed some activity in the hive - new bees find a new home  Few months later it is booming! We started from single medium box and today I added 5th! Probably I need to split this "house." On the pictures before and now just before adding 5th box.


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## Jackson

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

That is really wonderful Sergey, could it be a new colony or maybe a few workers and the queen survived the robbery and started rebuilding themselves, but when they were weakened by the robbery weren't you worried wax moth would go in and destroy the combs left behind?


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

last story for today is my little nuc, which was created from nothing. It is strange story - when we moved beehive to my neighbor, some bees refused to relocate and keep returning to my place. We gave them empty nuc and returned back to their new home. we kept doing so for literally a week. Nevertheless, at the end, I find a pathetic tiny group of bees getting ready to spend night on the roof (another roof!). It was so pitiful picture  - I placed a nuc-box next to them and they quickly get inside the box. It was the beginning a tiny colony. Somehow they got a mother, the queen - I find a tiny capped brood a few weeks later. I supported them by giving a bar of uncapped brood twice, but it was after they had normal (not workers) capped brood. It is a mystery! Anyway, now it is respectful 6-bar nuc in full-size box and growing! Unfortunately, I have no pictures of their beginning because I did inspections very quickly to protect them from cold. First pic is 2-3 months ago, second one - today.


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*



Jackson said:


> ... weren't you worried wax moth would go in and destroy the combs left behind?


Hi Jackson! Nice to hear form you! 
Probably it could happens, but I was so disturbed by this accident, that I simply did not think about wax-moth (AND SHB)... At the time I decided to disassemble the hive - it was already occupied to my great surprise! I like your idea that queen survived and rebuild the colony - this way I could feel less quilt  Have a great bee-season!


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## Teal

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

I love all these photos. It is my intent to begin next spring and start foundationless. I am quite excited, and these photographs make me want to do it even more.


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

Teal
Imagine you are tasting your own honey! This is the best part of beekeeping - untouched, fresh, totally organic (hopefully) honey from your bees! Everybody, who tried our honey - do not buy honey in the store anymore. Pure, natural wax candles as a Christmas gift were great too! Smells - fantastic! plus as a byproduct - the mead  plus propolis for medicinal use ....


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## allan

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

Nice photos cerezha thanks for sharing


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

You are very welcome, Allan. Do you have bees? How they are?


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## allan

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

I'm getting my first package of bees next month and i'm planning to start out with foundationless frames have already got the hives and frames.just hope that my frames turn out as nice as yours.


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## Jackson

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

Hello Sergey if I may ask, how long does it take you to inspect a hive? How long for each box?


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

Hi Jackson
It is tough question - bees teach me (hard way) that they prefer less inspection. I "diagnose" the hive by observing its outside activity, how many bees, do they bring pollen (brood), drones, pests etc. Thus, I touch the nest only if there is some indication that it needs attention. Typically, open beehive once in 2-3 weeks - check honey situation in upper boxes, it took 5 min or less. If there is less than 30-40% space available for storage, I chekerboard and remove extra honey - it could take another 5 min (you need to have spare frames and box for honey ready). After ~10 min in beehive, my girls are getting agitated and it is time to close the hive. If I feel that nest needs attention, I do it in two steps - 1st as above, do everything necessary for the boxes above the nest. Close the hive. A few days later - get everything ready, quickly remove honey boxes and cover with heavy fabric and then carefully, very gentle disassemble the nest - bees are obviously unhappy. Still, I think, for my bees, 10 min is a limit - after that all girls are outside flying everywhere. 

I noticed that managing bees in the long hive is much-much easier and less traumatic for bees. In horizontal hive I have no problem disassembling the nest during every inspection - there is no need for this. Those large beautiful combs are from the horizontal beehive. 

Good luck with your bees!


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## Jackson

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

Hello Sergey, 

What are your indications that they need more attention and for you to go into the nest? 
When you don't disturb the nest won't there be so much burr combs and honey combs stuck to the hive wall making it harder and taking more time to inspect it? 
The reason I ask is because I take so much time to check and am looking for ways to speed up , I really appreciate your input


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

Hi Jackson
Since my hives are near my house - I observe them many times per day - so I have general idea what is normal. Each my beehive has a piece of cardboard under the landing deck - I regularly check it at night. At night, bees do most of the house-cleaning and damp trash on the board - you may see dead bees, larvae etc. In the early morning they would remove trash from the board. Thus - during the day-time you may not see what was removed from the hive at night. This "trash" is the best source of information regarding bee-health. You may see bee-mummies or underdeveloped bees - not good. But again, how many and how often? My conclusion is that 3-5 (total per night) dead bees/larvae/mummies is OK. Many "mummies" - bad. You also check the smell of the hive - at night it should be sweet, not exactly like honey (smell of beehive). If you smell ammonia or rotten stuff - it is indication of the problem. Also bees behavior - if they respond on you quickly and run on the landing deck to meet you - some problem, potential robbing etc. Noise - normal hive produces steady specific noise. People (not me) can recognize swarm preparation listening the bee-noise. Newborn queen made specific noise (piping - never heard). 

Regarding nest - yes, bees have a tendency to attach comb to the sides and to the bottom. I made 2 L-shaped metal sticks with sharp edges to cut vertical and bottom sides of the comb. It works fairly well, but disturbs bees a little bit. Bees have attached the comb only if one did not do inspection for a few months. 

Again, I usually do not do a full nest inspection - I just remove a few frames from one side (look for honey and pollen) until I reach a full brood frame - I look at it briefly for brood pattern and obvious problems and took a picture (I have a stand). Put everything back and look on the picture at home away from angry girls  I really do not see any reason (except real serious disease) to disassemble the entire brood-nest frame-by-frame. 

If you really need to do full inspection, I would recommend to do it in reverse order - remove each box, cover with heavy cloth, stack them next to the hive - inspect last (lover) box first, than put back next box and inspect it, than another ... It works well only if your comb is not attached too much at the bottom  When you manipulate boxes - it is very important do not kill bees. Smoke bees and slide box from the side so it will push bees away. Time of inspection is very important too. 

Good luck!


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*



allan said:


> I'm getting my first package of bees next month and i'm planning to start out with foundationless frames have already got the hives and frames.just hope that my frames turn out as nice as yours.


Allan
I think, starting bee package foundationless may be a challenge. I would use wax foundation at least at the beginning and than add foundationless one-by-one between already drawn frames. This way you will teach bees how to make a straight comb on foundationless frames. If you want to be a purist and start completely foundationless, than you really need to keep eye on girls and correct each comb quite often. I have a nuc, where bees start comb without any guide. I corrected it once or twice with the knife - they have completed two deeps now and busy making a super - all without a single foundation! I observed that bees somehow learned how to make straight comb on foundationless - with time, they do it better and better! Moreover, it sounded completely crazy, but, it seems to me that they do teach neighbors! 

I wish you the best with your new bees!


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## allan

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

Thanks Sergey for the advice


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## cerezha

*Re: Inspection Jan 28 2014*

Hi everyone!
I would like just to tell you that myself and bees are doing great this season. We are in the process of massive building. As in all previous years, today - we are treatment-free, foundation-free, sugar-free, swarm-free. All my beehives have an original queens besides that horizontal beehive recently silently changed the queen. It was oldest queen - she served for 4 years before has replaced. I hope her daughter will be as good as her mother  As for "winter loses", we have an increase - from 3 to 5 beehives and one was transferred to my neighbor. Good luck with your bees.


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## cerezha

*May-June state of the business year 2014*

I did not visit this page for quite a while. In May my large beehive swarmed twice even after all my anti-swarm measures. Swarms were hived and have a new home in the neighboring backyards  After swarms, bees had a difficulties to make a new queen - perhaps because birds used beehive as a cafeteria. I suspect they eat many of my queens this year. Another beehive was getting too big and I did "equal wake away split." Split did not work as expected - both parts become queenless. I gave them eggs and one part made a queen and another suffered. Plus I had two more beehives from somebody's swarms. Being busy with all these queen issues and swarms, I suddenly faced another problem - city inspector visit. I have to remove-relocate 4 excessive beehives (only 2 permitted). So, one was sold to TF enthusiast who drove 100 miles to get my bees . I combine queenless with established swarm and I hide 2 hives on my deck (do not tell anybody). Rearrangement involved moving two beehives from the roof in the middle of the night. I ended up with 4 beehives and all of them currently doing great besides unbelievable drought in the area  Because of drought, I decided to keep all honey for the bees. Bees are working very hard - they have quite a bit of nectar but the whole business is much slower than, for instance, last year. I wish you great summer for your bees!


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## cerezha

*Re: August, state of the business year 2014*

Hello everyone
Today was inspection day. We are in really deep drought and it starts affecting bees ... and my garden. Even with watering, the garden looks a little bit ... hm ... unfresh! Bees are desperate to get anything. 

Last Saturday, we had fundraising event for kids in the center of Down Town Los Angeles - basically, all concrete. Poor bees discovered sweet Mexican drinks (freshly made from fruits, delicious!) and literally swarm around the table with drinks. Volunteers, who serve the drinks, worked in the cloud of bees. I never saw anything like this other than real swarm. Of coarse, everybody asked me what to do like I am "authority"... We came to conclusion that bees just follow me. Interestingly, at the event we had a few hundreds people and a hungry thousand bees = 1 sting. The boy who got stung, won a jar of my honey in raffle totally unintentionally! 

So, I decided to do inventory of my bees reserves  I collected 20 kilos of honey and each hive has at least half of the box honey spread at the sides in beehive. It also has another box-amount of uncapped nectar. All bees are doing great as far as I can tell. For some reason, one honeycomb was detached from the TB - fixed. Long hive had returned to its horizontal state - it has a vertical extension, but bees were reluctant to move up even with very nice "ladder." I do not post many pictures, because they all are the same. These pictures is to illustrate my typical "stick" with the comb. Note the drone's cells at the periphery of the comb. It is typical for all my beehives - my bees do not build all-drones comb. They do build large-cell honeycomb for nectar storage. Happy beekeeping to you and bees!

Last picture (from previous inspection) - "ladder" into vertical extension of horizontal beehive. Today, it was cut in half and returned to the hive as two normal-size "sticks."


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## cerezha

*Re: August, state of the business year 2014*

2015 report
This year was difficult to me and my bees. When I was traveling, two beehives were killed (poisoned?) and third one was affected. It took some time for bees to recover. I left all honey to the bees and decided do not disturb them. California drought is also affecting bees - even in the city, we feel damaging influence of the drought. Nevertheless, right now, after some difficult time, my bees (and myself) are doing great. I did full inspection and was really pleased to observe that my bees keep all comb in perfect order - comb is properly attached to the bars with practically zero cross-comb or bridges. It is without "supervision" from my side. My current theory is that bees somehow can learn and transfer the knowledge between generations. In my particular case, bees were trained to use foundationless top-bars instead normal frame with foundation. Apparently, they learned how to use bars and now all bars have perfect straight comb without any efforts from my side. 

Regarding treatment. From the very beginning it was decided that my bees will be treatment-free. After death of my bees, I questioned if it was varroa? Timing was perfect - it was exactly 4 years treatment-free. After analysis, I think that it was not varroa because bees were dead inside the beehive - full box of dead bees ... it was not CCD... regardless, the rest of the bees are passed 4 years treatment-free "death"-line and doing great! My two neighbors have also the same treatment-free bees and they are doing great. At this point, I feel that we managed to fill our area with our drones creating a local population of resistant to varroa bees. 

No pictures, sorry guys! I just get tired taking million similar pictures with "honey on the stick" - see above.


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## cerezha

*Re: August, state of the business year 2014*

2016 report
same as above, waiting for new swarms to increase beehives number. Bees become much more docile - it looks like that their african "blood" wears out or they learned how to manage my inspections or I learned from bees or all above. This year we have great native plants bloom in my native California garden - hope for great truly natural honey! As before - treatment-free and natural bee-cells on top-bars in Lang's boxes (see numerous pictures above). Good luck with your bees!


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## diymom

*Re: August, state of the business year 2014*

I bet your bees are so happy this year recovering from the drought! I'm down in orange county and I am loving the weather this year! Everything is green, early and strong for the bees! I think you will need some extra supers on hand!


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## cerezha

*Re: August, state of the business year 2014*

Yes, it is amusing, how even little rain affects all plants! I have record blooming in my native CA garden - bees are very happy!


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## diymom

*Re: August, state of the business year 2014*

I have a drought tollerant/native combo and I'm seeing a lot more bees this year. It's such a welcome change from the drought.


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## cerezha

*End of the 2016 very short report*

Hello everybody
My bees are doing well. This proves that my system is working (for me): bees are doing well without any treatment, without drop of syrup. I stopped counting mites a few years ago, it made everybody happier - no worry (and additional inspection) about "mite counts"  Bees on natural comb are much smaller than "normal" bees and seems to me more robust. I am doing minimal inspections and interfere only when needed. Bees are swarming occasionally (not a problem at all), but immediately occupy 100-years old nuc, which all my bees love! So, nearly 100% swarms stays at my place forming new families, which eventually transferred to my neighbors. With years, I learned from bees and bees learned (?) from me - it makes our relationship more peaceful - bees most of the time very docile and I can do entire inspection with 2-3 puffs of smoke! In most cases I just check the upper boxes and do not disturb the nest! I "read the hive" mainly by outside observation - do we have 3-o'clock orientation flight? any "dead bodies" near the entrance? any aggressive behavior and so on. It gives me quite accurate picture how bees are doing. I am reluctant to make new pictures of my bees because they are all the same! Also, my bees hate a digital camera - they pup precisely on the lens. This way they already damaged one camera, so I am protective of the new camera. Nevertheless, I decided to make a few pictures during the transition from "normal" to long-hive:


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