# Progressive Honey House plans : )



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks for posting it. I love looking at this sort of stuff.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I am in the "Dreamers" stage. I hope this post will stimulate a progression from dream to reality to some honey house pics. I am collecting boiler components to engineer a forced water heating/cleaning utility.
I will analyze & research till I can put together a frugal honey house w/expansion potential.

I hope that many will contribute to this thread (ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BUILT A HH AND LEFT SOMETHING OUT) so that anyone & everyone can work through the conceptual hurdles to the actual w/minimal regret. 

Pics, diagrams & input ad nauseam welcomed!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lakebilly said:


> What do you think?


1983? Might be a little outdated.

Layouts are completely dependant on volumes, equipment and manpower so all of these have to be determined prior to a layout.

I disagree with the hot house layout. Yes it needs two doors but the "in" should be at one end and the "out" should be at the other end. Centrally located allows the heat to dissipate into the rest of the building instead of going outside the building through an exterior wall. Ceiling fans should be used to keep the heat off the ceiling so higher pallets are not warmer then lower pallets. I don't see a problem with the "out" going into the extracting room like the paper objected to.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lots of folks have only one door into and out of their Hot Room. Andy Card runs 10,000 cols and his Hot Room has only one door. Not that Acebird is wrong. It's just a matter of what is practical for ones' own situation.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Like I said it depends on a lot of things. The two door concept is so that you can easily control FIFO (first in first out). Doors at opposite ends of the room make it logistically easier.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I would think that heat lines, electric would be on the outside walls for many reasons. re-configuring an expansion. heat envelop, not under foot. 

work flow in, around perimeter & out one door may be cost effective for the small setup.

Ace, Do you have a floorplan/link that you can post? I think that, depending on the work flow...out of hot room to uncapper (in my initial layout) a 2nd door is necessary. Or did you mean 'Honey House' doors? 

I have been in two commercial honey houses, 1 small(100 colonies) 1 large (900 colonies). I didn't have time to really see the work flow to make a qualification for efficacy/efficiency. 

I am currently working for a systems engineer. I may see if he can work something out in his spare time.(not likely)


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I would suggest two things:

Increase the pitch in the floor. It really pays off in clean up. The floor can be hosed and then not need to be squeegeed. The first extracting room I worked in was better than the one we use now. And put the drain at the LOW spot in the floor. Duh!!!!

A possibly better plan, which we have now, uses 2 floors. The extracting is done upstairs, and the honey flows by gravity down into the tank downstairs.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Like I said it depends on a lot of things. The two door concept is so that you can easily control FIFO (first in first out). Doors at opposite ends of the room make it logistically easier.


One would think so and I can see what you mean. But, if one had doors at both ends, that would only give one differtent handling opportunites.

Consider this. Load the one door Hot Room one day. Let it warm the stacks of honey supers over night. Use the stacks as you come to them. The last ones in will be warm enuf even though the first ones in will be warmer by the end of the day. The difference will not be all that noticable.

If you don't empty the Hot Room the day you extract, take the remaining stacks out, fill the room and put the stacks from the first day back in so they get worked first the next day you extract.

One of the best Hot Rooms I have worked w/ had one door. The honey supers were stacked on individual super pallets. One stack of supers per pallet, like a bottom board. The room held about 20 stacks if I recall correctly. It was filled at the end of the day and the heaters were turned on heating the honey over night. Had the floor been built w/ in floor heating that would have been better. If the honey came in cold, because of the time of year, oft times the bottom two supers would go back in the Hot Room and thrown on top of stacks to warm, sometimes stood on end.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If you don't empty the Hot Room the day you extract, take the remaining stacks out, fill the room and put the stacks from the first day back in so they get worked first the next day you extract.


The goal should be to reduce manipulation. There are hundreds of ways to work with what you have but which ways require the least amount of work and has the best streamline flow. More pallets will consume volume so the room would have to be larger. Heated floors sound great but heat rises and will always be warmer on the ceiling then the floor. Air circulation is the only way to prevent that. If you maintain a specific temperature set point in the room (I would guess most do) the temperature of the honey rises slower and slower as it becomes elevated. It would very much surprise me if a room full of honey would equalize in an overnight time span. And it most definitely would not be consistent from top to bottom with just floor heating.
I would use a force air system with many air returns in the floor along with radiant floor heating. I would start with a high temperature to begin with and lower as time goes on.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

As is done, though I didn't mention it. Circulating the warm air is important. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Yes, minimizing handling is the goal. But, until one gets into it, figuring out what works best is somewhat difficult. Though it is good to think about these things when designing a system.

What little I saw from the OP makes sense to me. Old designs aren't necassarily bad or not as efficient.

To me, the ultimately best honey house for a 500 to 1,000 hive operation in NY is the Meyers' Honey Co.s' honeyhouse in Granville, NY. Basically they have almost everything in a two bay garage half of whose floor is elevated.

Their 1 ton flatbed truck backs in to its' bay backing up to a floor of a height close to that of the truck bed. The stacks of honey are off loaded at the back end of the truck by a hand cart into a room parrellel to the truck. 

The uncapper, a Bogenshoots prototype still in use, uncaps into a large tank beside two extractors. The person loading the extractors stands between them taking the frames from the conveyor.

The extractors empty into the same tank as the cappings. This tank empties into a wax spinner which is on the lower floor at the same level as the floor of the garage where the truck is parked in the other bay.

Coming out of the spinner, honey is pumped up across the room into tanks where it is heated and strained into other tanks where it is then put into buckets or barrels or jars.

The supers come out of the hot room for uncapping, are uncapped and extracted, go back in the super pallets, not wearhouse pallets, and then back onto the truck or to a corner to wait for the return of the truck.

Use of gravity to move honey is smart, but pumps usually come into use. I do know a guy who ran 500 cols and didn't use pumps. He had a strong wife. Also a hot room w/ a wood stove in it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Though it is good to think about these things when designing a system.


Always best to lay it out on paper and think it through before you construct a building. The best opportunity is to start with a clean sheet and no equipment. If you get the equipment first your options will be limited and then its work with what you have.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Mark, 

Any chance your friends could post a pic?

Any projects of this size that I have done in the past w/out a drawing went over budget and much was left out. Utilities out of place needing alterations are expensive. 

See yourself working in the building through the smallest of tasks, i.e. loading supers from storage all the way through to packaging & all it's considerations.

I use a dry erase board, & I try to draw to a realistic scale.


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

We built a new honey house 3 seasons ago.
Best advice is to do a tour so to speak of no less than 5 or 6 beekeeping operations & there processing buildings.
Take detailed notes, the notes need to be of your likes and dislikes of each operation.
Then take all your likes & incorporate them in to your new building.
Also when you select a contractor " DO NOT " take the cheepest bidder. I suggest you select a contractor that does top notch cement finish work, no matter how much higher the bid is. Remember you will be walking on that floor almost every day for the rest of you life & 2nd best is no bargin over a life time.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Here I go talking about something I have no idea about!!!
I have never been in a honey house!

I have worked in a bunch of commercial kitchens and purchased equipment to go into them.

It is a good idea to clear the area and tape off the area that equipment will go into. This will give you an idea of flow. Pretend to run through your process with a bunch of supers, this will give you an idea of flow. It may look good on paper but you may find moving something will save bending and twisting or some other unnessecary movement. Do not just tape off footprint of equipment but widest dimension of overhang. Pay attention to power source and voilds that can trap debris.
Production of course is about minimizing steps.


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Sorry, just not the same deal as looking at a working honey house while it is in operation.
Like I said visit a few of them both large and small operators & take notes.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I didn't mean to imply that visiting others and drawing up plans were steps that needed to be 
skipped.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lakebilly said:


> I use a dry erase board, & I try to draw to a realistic scale.


I would think you would be required to file permits in Livingston NY. Many areas in NY require a licensed Architect. Sketches are not going to cut it but they are good for organizing your thoughts. You have not revealed what you business goals are as to the size of operation. Is this a start from scratch or an expansion?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Ace,

I'm guessing that you probably have never read [m]any of my posts. 

I am a remodeling contractor. I have been in business over 30 yrs. I deal w/code enforcers, architects, designers all the time. I am currently working for a systems engineer. 

I worked 2 summers for a 30 yr beek. I worked in his honey house, but I never got a chance to take in the heating system etc. I didn't care for the floor plan flow course, but we got it done. He died a yr ago. I have been reading & watching vids every chance I get. Not to mention a dropped out of a plane learn to land on my feet necessity.

I started w/two hives in 09. poor girls they died from my ignorance. I ain't no quitter. I went to 6 hives in 2010 up to ten then down to six then up to 24, then up to sixty, where I am currently. I bought a sideline biz in Aug of last yr. I am brainstorming a HH to equip my gig. I have seen layouts that I like/don't like & I will not pull the trigger on a concept till I like one. That's where your input & others come in. I have a 33 frame extractor, sideline uncapper, 2 wax melters, 2 sumps, a pump, 1 small holding tank, & a bottler. much more stuff. 

I just (today) finished priming a stack of 130 5 frame deep nucs (it's raining)(as u kno) I have more to do, not sure when I'll get to them.

Started this thread for idea's, & I know that this topic is of interest to many. Hope to be a benefit & a beneficiary to the folks like me. Thx.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What is your honey house like Acebird? What is the flow chart like?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> I worked 2 summers for a 30 yr beek. He died a yr ago.


Who was that, if you don't mind me asking. PM me if you'd rather not say in public. Just curious whether I knew him or not.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Hey Mark,

I can't imagine that it would bother anyone telling you thay it was Al Stryker, Harmony Hill Honey.

Al was a great guy, I think of & miss him every day, thought he'd live to be a hundred.(74) Hard working smart man.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Remember wash down panels, slope the concrete floor side to side and front to back with a dairy type grate down the middle, hot and cold running water-a must. Lots of lighting with a large exhaust fan in the peak of the far wall. AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING OF ALL.....Build it always bigger than you need. Because before you know it, it will be too small. I have 4000 square feet but now I could use 8000 square feet. Oh well, live and learn. TED


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> Hey Mark,
> I can't imagine that it would bother anyone telling you thay it was Al Stryker, Harmony Hill Honey.


Nope. Guess I didn't know him. I bet I know people who did though. What was his extracting plant like?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lakebilly said:


> That's where your input & others come in. I have a 33 frame extractor, sideline uncapper, 2 wax melters, 2 sumps, a pump, 1 small holding tank, & a bottler. much more stuff.


Are you planing on sticking with just one extractor? It might be better to have the hot room in with the equipment if you are going to be limited to a single 33 frame extractor. Warm at night and extract during the day.

Mark, what size operation do you feel you should be to take on the expense of a honey house? I am sure it is not two hives.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Great input Ted!

I can help you with the building addition if you want to hire me ;-)

I am thinking that corrugated steel on the walls, concrete floor w/drain, in floor hot water heat (found a boiler pump $35. Wow!) I like the idea of a raised area gravity flow. My shop is 10'5" High. I had my extractor & uncapper on a platform. I hope to get by with 30'X40'.
Once I get a floor plan that I like (efficient flow course) I will start planning the utilities.

I don't think I care to get much bigger than 300 colonies in the near future. A balance of selling honey , Qns (when I learn how to rear them) & nucs. This sideline will be part of my farm retirement. (if unkle sam doesn't regulate me out)

Ace, Very likely a second. Al had 2 100 frame & it was very nice to be spinning one/unloading another. 2 peeps could GITTer DONE!

Mark, Als HH was a 30'X40' w/20'x40' cold storage. At the gable end was a below ground ramp dock, unloaded supers (400?) @ right of dock. Next to it was a very small dryer closet. Opposite wall was an 8' uncapping tank converted into a frame melting reclaimer drip tub ( I want one bad!!) a scale, a 500 gallon stainless milk tank (holding) a sink, drains from both extractors & uncapper that was between extractors. it wasn't a bad flow, I just think it could've been improved. We 4500 lbs last yr. I only could help PT so I couldn't say how long it took. 
I was @ a Huge HH in Hamlin last yr to buy a melter. I can't remember his name, I dealt w/his wife. You could easily plat frisbee in it. He handles 900 colonies.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, what size operation do you feel you should be to take on the expense of a honey house? I am sure it is not two hives.


Why not? I have seen honey houses which would fit on the back of my F-450.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> Ace, Very likely a second. Al had 2 100 frame & it was very nice to be spinning one/unloading another. 2 peeps could GITTer DONE!


In all the years I have had as many hives as I have I only extracted my own honey w/ my own equipment for 3 years. when I had 800 cols I did all my extracting in a 12'X36' Mobile Office Site trailer. Got it for free and paid $700.00 to get it hauled to my property from Utica.

The one end was the Hot Room. I plugged the ductwork in the floor so all the heat from the furnace went to the Hot Room.

At the other end of the trailer I had a 60 frame Stainless Steel Dadant Extractor and a Kelley 36 frame extractor w/ a Kelley Cappings tank between them. Everything ran into a sumptank which was down on the floor of a 10 by 10 building addition.

A pump on the floor of the sump room ran the honey from the sump up to the ceiling of the trailer and along the wall between the door and the furnace wall where honey drained into three 100 gallon tanks which sat on top of three drums which had two boards spanning them for a base. Opposite those tanks sat the wax melter.

I could back my truck up to the Hot Room exterior door and using a ramp between the truck and trailer, off load the honey into the hot room. After extracting those supers went out the main entrance door onto a dock made from a flatbed trailer. where they were stacked onto pallets to be stored or onto the flatbed truck to go back onto the hives.

Man, a fire sure can screw things up.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Having my shop filled w/STUFF this past 5 months, I thought I was going to buy a 53' semi trailer. Gots 2 have a permit fo that son! Gonna tough it out for a building probly.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Which you will need a permit for too. And have to pay taxes on after ten years, if you can get it designated for ag use deferement.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

We built a honey house and i wish we had done some thing differently and go bigger. Some of the things we would have changed, easier wash down walls...tin or arcrylic walls, electrial planned a bit better especially when it comes to washing down. Better floor grating for washing and better sloping for cleaning the floor.
When we built, we had 50 hives. We never thought we would get much bigger than that. Now...


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Look at freezer board for the walls, to the height you stack your supers. +

Epoxy coat the floor, so that it is not slick, yet cleans up.

All electrics come from the ceiling as drop cords and twist lock plugs.

OK, "splane to me why you need a hot room, never used one never though I needed one.
Honey always came out fine. What am I missing?

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> OK, "splane to me why you need a hot room, never used one never though I needed one.
> Honey always came out fine. What am I missing?
> 
> Crazy Roland


Raise the temperature of the honey so you get more out of the comb? If you have more inventory than will fit into a heated space then you have to heat it prior to extraction in cooler seasons.

I would use a concrete sealer not epoxy. Epoxy will not stand up to a pallet truck with steel wheels. Nails and such will also tear up the floor.

Electric drops from the ceiling is the way to go. Maybe you want to put in a gang way so you can move the drops around. That can get expensive though.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Concrete sealer will not hold up to fermented honey turning to acid. A food grade epoxy floor is required by the food inspectors. I have dropped a concrete block from 10 feet onto an epoxy floor with no damage. Get the good stuff and scrap your steel wheels. 

What part of "Honey always came out fine" was misleading? The honey is extracted. 

Do I have a different/better extractor? 

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Interesting most commercial kitchens I have seen have tile floors with mortar seams around here. In the medical facility I worked at the labs had tile, epoxy, and concrete floors. The tile stood up the best but concrete was second. The epoxy floor had to be redone every year and would chip, crack and peal in 6 months. To make matters worse the fumes gassing out of the epoxy coating would corrode everything in sight that was not stainless steel. Electrical boxes, heating and ventilating ducts, motors, hand trucks, tools, you name it.

The mix on the concrete is important when you are dealing with corrosive chemicals.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

For food production epoxy is the way to go!

Roland reminds me of a good point.

Have your plans formally reviewed and signed off on by the highest authority you can contact for the department inspecting you.

At the final inspection they may tell you that you need more floor drains and additional hand sinks.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Look at freezer board for the walls, to the height you stack your supers. Splane porfivore

Epoxy coat the floor, so that it is not slick, yet cleans up. Brand preference? fine sand mixed in?

All electrics come from the ceiling as drop cords and twist lock plugs.
I have considered this. 

Warmed honey flows better.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Twist lock plugs may not be to code in NY. It either has to drop to the equipment hard wired or the receptacle has to be fastened to structure. Check and see what you can get away with.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Lakebilly wrote:

Look at freezer board for the walls, to the height you stack your supers. Splane porfivore

Freezer board is white textured sheets of fiberglass. It is connected to the studs with expanding drive rivets. It is more expensive than dry wall. Cover the walls to the height you stack your supers. No need to go higher. 'splained enough?

Epoxy coat the floor, so that it is not slick, yet cleans up. Brand preference? fine sand mixed in?

This is NOT epoxy pain I am speaking of. It is epoxy food grade floor covering, and is troweled on. It will come with the aggregate. Can't think of a name brand. Or was it National Polymer? I will try to do my home work.

Warmed honey flows better.

I am fully aware of that, but have noticed no difference when extracting on 90 deg day to 60 deg(in the building) days. That is why I have asked about heating.

Mbeck wrote:

Have your plans formally reviewed and signed off on by the highest authority you can contact for the department inspecting you.

Good idea. Cover your *ss.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> It is epoxy food grade floor covering, and is troweled on.Crazy Roland


How thick?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

About an eight of an inch thick, roughly the size of the aggregate used. National Polymers has a web site. I believe I used there product in the 90's. Back in the 60's we used a "Monolithic epoxy floor" . That name did not bring up the correct company. If my memory is correct, it was named that because the aggregate was crushed epoxy, thus "one rock"(mono lith). It was the best.

Crazy Roland


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Thx CR,

I'm thinkin polebarn w/horizontal perlins. Corrugated steel seems cost effective & easily cleaned for interior & exterior walls.

Epoxy floor sounds like good idea. u gotta pic of ur HH posted here someplace?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Galvanized steel is not going to like honey splashes. Fiberglass is a better choice. But I think Roland suggested a food grade panel which is more like a Formica. Seems have to be vertical for wash down.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

u gotta pic of ur HH posted here someplace? 

No. I am very dissatisfied with it. The floor does not pitch to the drain properly. 

I will try to find info on the Freezer board. Yes, there are "H" strips that go between the sheets to make a better seal. 

Crazy Roland

P.S. The extracting area preceded the Honey Processing area. Try again.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> The floor does not pitch to the drain properly.


I don't care for floor drains they don't drain fast enough. Solids will remain on the floor surface while the water takes it time to go down. I prefer a grate trough system even though this makes for a little more work cleaning the grate and trough.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I think that some of the concerns; honey splashes, solids in drains do not over ride the cost concerns. I have yet to see (in my very limited experience) honey splashes on the walls or solids that would be problematic to where a removable grate for clearing such objects would be a simple solution.

I can't afford space age technology, but I realize that criteria needs to be met for the powers that be.

I am interested (as I am sure onlookers are) for cost effective, ease/efficient flow of operation will surpass a fantasy beyond the vision for a small sideliner that could evolve if necessary. 

I am hoping to get this conversation to layout of equipment, mindful of the operations from beginning to end. Once the concepts for where to & how are solid, I can focus on costing the building specifics.

Roland, The layout of your HH in a pic is more useful as a visual than the undetectable pitch of your floor, though your dissatisfaction is noted. ;-)

Ted, Why the exhaust fan?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If you are going to use a sprayer of any kind bits and pieces will end up on the wall. The cost of building an approved honey house is way beyond the means of a side liner. Build a garage and make do or you can do like Mark does and use someone else's which is by far the smartest thing to do. It just blows my mind why someone would want to invest in all the equipment necessary for extracting honey to be used 3 weeks out of the year. Doesn't it make sense to form cooperatives and use the same equipment and facility for a longer period of time?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Doesn't it make sense to form cooperatives and use the same equipment and facility for a longer period of time?[/QUOTE]

sad to say that it's a reality Ace. I have attempted to coop more situations than the Honey biz, it's a marriage of sorts. ones enough, not to mention a diversity of method, timing. When you have successfully navigated that nightmare please post the arrangement.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Doesn't it make sense to form cooperatives and use the same equipment and facility for a longer period of time? 

With the virility of CCD, and the cross contamination issues of shared equipment, A person would have to be crazy(no offense SQKCRK) to share space with others.

Lakebilly, I will try to PM some images to you next week. I am not near the shop right now.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> A person would have to be crazy(no offense SQKCRK) to share space with others.


That is totally ridiculous. Your bees and their factory are sharing space with every contaminant you can imagine.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Another very experienced commercial beekeeper "shared" our equipment and was out of business in 2 years with CCD.
We found out we had CCD at the time he "shared". 

Do not allow anyone else to use your extracting equipment, hive tool, or other bee equipment.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You have a food grade honey house and you feel this other beekeeper got CCD from your equipment?:scratch:
If CCD was caused by a germ it would be easy to trace and much easier to deal with.

I think CCD is a result of tricking the bees to live in an environment that is contaminated and divorced from diversified food sources. They put up with this environment until the colony cannot sustain itself. Then their natural instinct is to leave. Unfortunately it probably means the death of the colony.

People raise animals all over the country and share the same processing plants to package the meats we eat. The handling of honey is far less critical for transmitting diseases than any other food we eat.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> They put up with this environment until the colony cannot sustain itself. Then their natural instinct is to leave. Unfortunately it probably means the death of the colony.


The problem I have w/ that explanation of CCD is, individual bees ahrdly ever act on their own in their own benefit and no one has seen CCD bees leaving as I would suspect someone would have by now if colonies left hives because of CCD related matters.

It is my understanding that CCD colony bees leave to forage and don't come back, leaving an ever smaller group behind, a handful of workers and a queen.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> It is my understanding that CCD colony bees leave to forage and don't come back, leaving an ever smaller group behind, a handful of workers and a queen.


It has to happen quick enough or with such large numbers that the queen cannot keep up with new bees. Mental illness is a sickness that is more related to chemical imbalances and not caused by a germ.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know that it does happen quickly or whether it has to. It may happen somewhat slowly over a period of a month or two.

The first case described was a set of 400 five frame nucs built in the North, late Summer, and transported to somewhere in FL. They were set down and left unattended to for a month when the beekeeper found only 40 still alive. No one witnessed the bees leaving en mass. My suspicion is that they dwindle away.

My personal experience w/ CCD, or something like it, undiagnosed by professionals only self diagnosed in retrospect, was when, over the course of 10 months I went from 732 live colonies down to 100. That was from May until March. Never did I see swarming or abscondinglike behavior. Every time I went to work the hives there was one or two more dead, w/ no apparent signs of disease. By Fall I was down to 400, by March down to 100. 

Four hundred went to SC and again, whenever I went to work them more were dead. Until, by Spring only 100 were alive. Those I split and slowly built up numbers above 500 again.

So, whereas it is entirely possible that the bees just up and leave, no one has seen it. Or, at least if they have, it hasn't been widely reported as a characteristic of CCD.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Hey you HIJACKERS, You gonna post some ideas 4 a HH or you gonna keep Blabbin bout anythin butt!!?

6 pages 1750 views & nuttin HONEY!


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## Happy Honey Farm (Feb 14, 2010)

Lakebilly, I am an electrican, twist locks are within code from a hardwired box from the ceiling. Make sure you bring a 100 amp 220volt panel to your building. make all your circuits with #12 or 20 amps. Remeber to try to think of the future, as you know from your field its cheeper to put it in before you close it up. you may want to put in infloor heat if you have a boiler.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

Roland, the freezer board you are talking about is called FRP board. You can use it in food service areas, can be bought at Menards


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

The exhaust fan is to keep some air circulating in the building. Honey houses with all the machinery, heating units, can get quite unbearable during the summer extracting season. Also, I have yet to find any honeyhouse that is completely bee tight. So the smell of honey and any wayward bees attracted by that smell are sucked out the back of the building. The fan keeps the building bee free, which makes for happy employees, especially the women folk that maybe on the extracting crew. That is the main use of the fan. TED


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Ace, I thought that Zombification and hijacking threads was the cause of your problems.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Thanks Tefer2. I will have to check the price at Menards.

Crazy Roland


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

Roland, if you don't like the price at Menards, most gypsum (drywall) supply warehouses carry it also.
FRP, fiberglass reinforced plastic, comes 4x8 and 4x10 sheets, colors too.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

HHF, I have thought of, & I do like the top down utilities considerations. Noted Thx.

TK, Probably gonna go windowless, so the fan & a light w/a bee escape certainly is necessary. I have only worked in 1 HH & it was brutally hot in Aug/Sept. 

Tefer, gonna check to see if Henrietta Building Supply (HBS, A very large dist) has info on FRP THX.

Keep it goin.


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## John Smith (Jan 31, 2006)

I have worked in numerous honey houses in several countries. When it came time to build my own, I labored over it far too long, but came up with a house that pleases me very much. Unfortunately, several features work differently than what I planned, despite my having not only drawn flow paths, etc ,and built scaled down models of equipment out of cardboard. I crave the opportunity to build another one, but as has been pointed out by others, the profitability of honey just does not warrant it in this present environment. The dream house would be on two , three or four levels and be entirely gravity flow.

I target a LOW HEAT process, I call COOL PROCESSING, and the result is that my honey regardless of floral type seems to taste better than the usual samples offered. Minimum processing is ideal, simplified and preferably all gravity fed. In my dreams I dispose of my single honey pump by means of using a fork lift to raise a two ton tank full of honey up high enough that gravity can be utilized entirely. Even a scrap A frame from an old Hyster fixed to the building would do the trick. “Stacking” the equipment makes the plant compact too, and height in a building is usually cheaper than floor space.

The honey house has split level floor, to loading dock height, with sheet vinyl floor covering on the top level where uncapper and extractor are (I wish I had have put it on both floors). No hot room, despite our Australian winter honey crops (winter is mild at my location!). The boxes (stack of 4) are barrowed straight off the truck to the uncapper, no double handling. The cappings fall on a warmed pan and flow down into a vat on the lower floor, as does the honey from the extractor, which has warming coils on the wall of the can for the honey to flow over. Wax separation is quite another story but relies on flotation. A brick wall to wainscot height is cement rendered and painted. The building is as close to bee proof as I could make it, but that war continues, of course.

It is definitely a one person extracting plant (Maximum hive number for me was about 600), yet still I have on record days, drummed off 9 barrels, and five, six and seven are quite achievable. The empty boxes can be on the truck at the close of the day. There are no 8 hour limits to my work day! Both in Australia and Arizona I worked in mobile plants, which encourages the idea that small is beautiful. Some ultramodern plants will age badly as machinery is very difficult to clean and polish. Keeping it simple pays off, and considering that the plant will only operate a minimum number of days each year, don’t think for a minute it is necessary to process the whole crop in one day.

The top level has no drains, only sloped to the edge and straight over. A grated and gauzed drain runs the length of the building immediately under the dock for draining both floors. Floors never stay put, so aim for maximum fall in the desired direction, as the contractor at the council’s direction will dig up the whole site to make a mud puddle before laying the concrete! That part is quite predictable! Never mind that little tamp/tamp/tamp machine, as it is only for pacifying the buyer.

Once, in Arizona, two of us arrived at the apiary, took off the honey, extracted it and returned the boxes to the hives coming home with a 100 tin tank full of honey. In Australia, ONCE again, and only once, two of us did the same, and departed at evening time with 9 barrels of honey lying on the ground in the apiary. There is much to be gained by exposing oneself to mobile extracting plants. They have no drainage problems and are not well regulated by most authorities, so having one parked in the back yard near the wood shed is not entirely illegal. They would be much easier to sell once no longer needed than an expensive honey house.

My heat source is a 14kw electric boiler. I purposely kept its capacity low so as not to be mindlessly overheating my honey. The wax is not melted during the run, so only enough heat is required for the uncapper, and warming the honey sufficiently for it to flow and pump, and for the cappings to settle out. As I live in close proximity to neighbours, I didn’t want a boiler with smoke coming out of it.

Whatever your circumstances or location, use the KISS formula: Keep It Sweet & Simple. Hive loaders are another occasion for this formula. Beekeepers have a fantastic ability with gadgets………… keep them to a minimum! Put the quality of your honey at the top of your priority list and you will never regret it. A good days work is very health and wealth promoting! Why develop gadgets that save time so you can spend the rest of the day cleaning and tinkering with the gadget?

Cheers,

JohnS


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

JohnS - may I ask what uncapper and extractors you use?

We also(if I understood you right) use skids and handtrucks, The supers get loaded on the skids in the truck at the beeyard, and get wheeled into the extracting room when back at the shop.

Yes, gravity has been rather dependable.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

John Smith said:


> There is much to be gained by exposing oneself to mobile extracting plants. They have no drainage problems and are not well regulated by most authorities, so having one parked in the back yard near the wood shed is not entirely illegal. They would be much easier to sell once no longer needed than an expensive honey house.
> 
> My heat source is a 14kw electric boiler.


:thumbsup:

I still take the heat from this forum when I mentioned this idea. And it still makes perfect sense to me. If the equipment is on wheels it will give you another form of income in the form of rental. And it will fit very well for cooperatives and organized bee clubs.


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## John Smith (Jan 31, 2006)

Roland, my gear is made in Australia, so you may not recognise the brands, but the decapper (made in Western Australia) is a BeeQuip. Can’t find a URL for the manufacturer, but here is one for his distributor in Finland: http://beeman.se/com/beequip-nf.htm 

It is simple enough, durable and easy to clean. The oscillating cutters are heated with low pressure steam, as are the coils in the extractor, which was made by Pender Brothers in New South Wales. The decapper has horizontal drive chains that hold about 12 frames for the feed in, so the holding area for the cut frames can be reduced in length. No chains on the exit side, just slide bars, with the accumulating frames pushed along by the decapper feed chains. Chains are great things to minimise, as they make a right royal mess of the honey by grinding it into the propolis, pollen and brood stained wax.

The extractor is a 21 frame semi-radial, self-centering with double baskets. Not sure if you use any such machine in America. The frame baskets lay over from being parallel with the radius, to about 45 Degress, and after returning to parallel will swing to the other side 45 degrees when the machine is stopped and reversed.

So the decapper stand need only hold 42 frames to supply each spin of the extractor; with the cut area being full at 34 combs, the dozen waiting to be cut will come through as I load the extractor. The rack and drip tray (which also is moving the cappings) hang over the vat on the lower level, which makes the entire machinery footprint quite compact. The rest of the year my shed floor space is available for other uses.
All are in stainless steel, of course.


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## John Smith (Jan 31, 2006)

Don’t take too much notice of the heat, Acebird. If you didn’t upset someone, you didn’t say much.

I seriously considered a mobile unit (probably on a truck chassis) that serves in the apiary, yet can be ‘docked’ at the home shed. One could have the best of both worlds, that way. There is really no need for massive volumes of plant just to do the extracting (climatic conditions aside). Sure, the hot rooms, the tank storage, the box storage, these have to be considered on an individual basis. But if the actual extracting machinery was portable, it could be ‘plugged in’ practically anywhere. Who knows but what you might be contracted to do the extracting on the White House Lawn!

A good honey house is a good money earner too, unless of course, one is paranoid about disease. A beekeeper I know who is now retired still earns income from other beekeepers that use his honey house. It takes a bit of getting it organised for such work, but it is not impossible. I do not rent out my facility, as I am not famous for getting organised.


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## Happy Honey Farm (Feb 14, 2010)

If your budet can handle it. we bought a 1940 vintage 48 frame extractor. We had to disassemble it and sandblast it, greese it and put it togethere. It works great so if you can get a big extractor it will save alot of time. What took two days we got done in 6 hrs.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

JohnS - thank you for your reply. Your plan points out the importance of mathing up the capcities of your uncapper , Que storage, and extractors. I have worked with two different cowens, and although they are functional, always felt that there should be something better, and you pointed out the chain/wax/honey issue.

I stopped at the local Menards. They gad several grades of .09 thick FRP board, priced at 25-30 dollars a 4*8 sheet. They also had the drive rivets and h channel strips for the seams.

Crazy Roland


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