# Fireants!!!!!



## robherc

(copied from other thread)



rrussell6870 said:


> Amdro granules, not broadcasted, but poured directly into a few holes in the nest that you make with a stick... after you have treated each nest, get some grasses growing... the added moisture in the soil caused by the shading of grasses will make them seek a more suitable home...
> 
> For your stands, place each leg in a pail of water... keep an eye on the water level to keep it from evaporating...
> 
> We don't really have a problem with ants, even though there are plenty around and some even build nests under hives and even between hives that are on pallets... a good healthy hive will teach the ants that its easier to find a safe meal elsewhere...
> 
> 
> Hope this helps.


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## robherc

(copied from other thread)



rrussell6870 said:


> Amdro granules, not broadcasted, but poured directly into a few holes in the nest that you make with a stick.


(envisions poking & pouring on about 700+ ant mounds) Well, guess I'll start with the ones closest to the hives & start working my way out SLOWLY and METHODICALLY!



rrussell6870 said:


> get some grasses growing... the added moisture...


I have 15lbs of Buckwheat seed that I'm planning to plant as a "cover crop" in the 3/4 acre section (hay field) where I'm locating my hive boxes; that should work pretty well, shouldn't it?



rrussell6870 said:


> a good healthy hive will teach the ants that its easier to find a safe meal elsewhere...


...Well, that's kinda what I was HOPING would happen, but I guess I have WAY too many ants for that (or not enough bees yet; or maybe both) :-(



rrussell6870 said:


> Hope this helps.


So do I, BELIEVE me so do I...will update once I've made enough progress to attempt re-stocking one of the hives.


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## robherc

(copied from other thread)


rrussell6870 said:


> Lol. For the grass, you may want to try mixing a pound of ball clover per acre into some rye seed or that buckwheat seed... its pretty drought tolerant, but adding some form of irrigation will help all around... Texas is home to Fairly Seed Co. who grows Ball Clover and has great success with it there... clover is a nitrogen fixing plant that I have been doing a good bit of research on and have used a LOT throughout my life... it starts well in poor quality soil so long as it has water and it corrects a lot of problems and only releases the N when the plant dies... it reseeds itself heavily and provides an excellent protein forage for cattle and other livestock as well as wildstock like deer and turkeys... if you use a rotation program, it can give you forage for livestock year round... and forage for bees year round as long as the droughts don't get the blooms...
> 
> We did a study in pecan orchards where constant herbicides had been used beneath the trees for over a decade and the soil had become a total wasteland... ball and crimson clover were used in separate rows and both made a moderate stand the first year and a full stand the second... for pecans, clover is an excellent cover because it harbors the predators of pecan pests, controls the amount of N released into the soil and helps hold in cool moisture so the soil doesn't bake in the summer... pecan crops nearly doubled by the second year and the amount of pesticides needed were less than a quarter of what was needed before...
> 
> The point is that cover can resolve some of the "hard soil" issues that fire ants seem to thrive in, and it sure is a lot safer than importing phorid flies. ;-)


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## robherc

Sounds ok, but I'm not sure how much it'll affect my land. When I purchased the land a couple (or maybe 3-3.5) years ago it was overrun with natural, THICK vegetation growing to ~4ft high. While clearing that DENSE vegetation I ran into COUNTLESS fire ant (RIFA) mounds, some upwards of 1ft high & 3ft diameter. After clearing the land (i.e. mowing down to manageable pasture height & removing most of the mesquite shrubbery...OUCH!) I overseeded the back 99'x300' section (my hives are at the back of this section) with a pasture mix of bermuda grass + ryegrass + alfalfa + forget what else. Now that area is FULL of clover & wildflowers, with grass poking up wherever the clover & alfalfa haven't smothered it out (currently an avg. of about 6" tall throughout). Even so, and even after last year's all-time-record-destroying drought (I think we still need over 1' of rain to "end the drought" ...and it's been raining PLENTIFULLY so far this year), the fire ants are as bad as ever, maybe even worse! :-(
I'm not discounting anyone's input, least of all someone with experience to absolutely shame my own, but in light of that, do you still think planting grass/buckwheat/ball clover/crimson clover (btw, I also have an enough crimson clover & foxtail millet seed to blanket that whole area with either/both of those) will really do much at all to help with my ant problem?
(also, do you/anyone else here know anything about the purported negative effect on reproduction rates caused by feeding legumes to sheep? I'm not sure of the validity, but it concerns me some as the pasture area with my hives in it is the hay field I harvest as winter silage for my sheep)

Back to how to kill the ants: So far, I'm thinking that I'll try:
a)Your "poke and pour" Amdro method &/or the "3-4oz orange oil+1gal water poured on the mound" method on the first 50-100 mounds I see (I'll prob. experiment with both; see which works best)
b)Plant the buckwheat & crimson clover seed that I already purchased to plant as bee forage back there anywise
c)Place "inverted pie-pan" style "termite shields" on the legs of all of my hives from now on (maybe adding smaller dishes of water/oil sheltered under them if necessary)
and
d)Keep watching/reading to see what other ideas people here can come up with that strike me as having similar, or better, odds of efficacy.


Any thoughts from anyone there? Good plan? Bad plan? Horrible plan? ...just don't bother telling me I'm overdoing it, 'cuz this is, after all, a GENOCIDAL WAR now...LOL (not to mention how mad I already was at the fire ants for destruction of crops, destruction of fences, killing my cat, attacking me+my wife+our 2.5yr old son.....etc, etc, etc... for the past 3 yrs!)


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## mrsl

We use Orthene here, and it works very well. Mind you, it's terribly expensive and you have to liberally apply it to the mound (I poke several holes in the paper container cover and sprinkle it like a salt shaker all over the mound, until it is white). I've tried every broadcast poison out there, and none of them will eliminate the ants, the per-mound treatment is much more effective. We've got 20 acres here, and treat all of it (the wooded areas aren't so bad, but the 12 acres of open ground require constant attention). I use gas near my hives so the bees won't get into the Orthene, since it will kill them too and it highly transportable (it's the consistency of flour). Planting vegetation will not make the ants go away; if you don't mind mowing try keeping it cut (I mow my fields 6" high & it helps a lot). There is not an easy fix for the ants; treating mounds is part of my weekly routine (sad but true).


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## robherc

hmm... sounds kinda tempting (though quite expensive)... but I just looked up a tech. paper on acephate (active ingredient in orthere); NASTY stuff! Kills bugs; then kills anything & everything that eats the bugs! So; after deliberation, I don't think it's going to be an option for me as I'm getting into beekeeping to help sustain biodiversity, and I value my worms, lizards, dragonflies, birds & ducks (the ducks are livestock) a bit too much to endanger them that much..
...guess I'll keep looking.

SIDE NOTE: Doesn't look like I'll be trying the "3-4oz of orange oil in a gallon of water" method much either; would cost approx. $300 in orange oil to treat my land that way!


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## Slow Modem

I use Amdro and it works well here. I have between 5 and 10 hills a year I have to deal with. The fire ants and I have decided that this will be an ongoing war until I die (they'll eventually win, but I won't go down without a fight!).

This may seem way out in left field, but if they're that bad, perhaps you could consider putting your hives in kiddie pools and putting several inches of water in the pool. Have the hives up on a couple of blocks where the moisture wouldn't bother them too much. It would be like a moat. The dollar stores have the kiddie pools for around $5. I know it sounds strange, but it just might work.


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## Ted Kretschmann

This is simple, inexpensive and works quite well.....I have bees on pallets and the little stinging red ant devils build their mounds sometimes between the colonies or up the sides of them. So I have a garden sprayer mixed with DAWN dish detergent. I spray between the boxes. I stick the nozzle down into the mound and foam them. The soap kills the ants on contact and keeps killing. The soap will move down into the soil with a rain. It is safe for your bees as long as you do not spray them by accident. After soaping the ants and killing them I work my bees without fear of being eaten alive by the ants. Give Dawn a try. TED


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## robherc

Slow Modem said:


> I have between 5 and 10 hills a year I have to deal with.


I *WISH* I only had 5-10/year to deal with; lol I just killed about 20 the other day with Diesel fuel. Now I have 20 nice, dead spots; no ants, no grass, nothing living at all there (one ant hill has since moved in close enough to a dead patch that the mound has crossed into the "dead zone" though)...so I guess I _could_ just pour about 150gal of diesel over the whole property for around $500 and change...would prob. get rid of all the ants w/o killing anything that can walk/crawl/fly away before application, but I don't think the EPA would appreciate it much!



Slow Modem said:


> This may seem way out in left field, but if they're that bad, perhaps you could consider putting your hives in kiddie pools and putting several inches of water in ... It would be like a moat.


Now THAT does bring up some interesting ideas to ponder..... 
Well, first obstacle would be durability. Those things only last about 1-2months watertight around here, but that doesn't rule out the idea, just the equipment.....
Could use feed troughs; more expensive, but last for years & years...and I don't think my sheep would like me hijacking their troughs..lol
...would be better if I could still bury the legs of my hive stands though, as I use top-bar &/or horizontal style hives to allow me to place them higher off the ground while still being able to work them (and they're MUCH cheaper to build/maintain)
*pondering*

Ok, time for a vote I think:
Which do you guys think sounds more feasible+effective+environmentally friendly:
A) Pour a concrete moat about 20"-24" wide (shaped like a 6" tall animal food/water dish) around the bottom of each Hive Stand leg;
B) Pour a 7'x3' rectangular concrete pond around the bottom of BOTH legs for each hive stand (i.e. concrete slab around legs w/1' min. distance from center of leg to rim of pond)
C) Pour a 75'x7' concrete LAKE over the whole area I plan to keep most of my hives in, with anchor bolts poured into this concrete so I can bolt down my hive stands where/when I need them (prob. will be a bit pricey though; would have to use stainless anchor bolts & it'd take a couple cubic yards of concrete)








This is what my hives+stands look like. Each hive is 4' long, hanging on 2 5' long 2x4s; with 2 hives able to hang from one pair of stand "trees" buried in the ground. If necessary, I could prob. redesign the stands to hold 3 hives per pair, to raise the efficiency of options A and B

My thoughts here:
Option A seems like the water might stagnate a bit too much, so the ants might get across, but it'd have the lowest impact for turning "plant space" into "dead space"
Option B gives the water a bit more space to move around in lighter breezes, still has a lower "plant space" impact, but still leaves hives vulnerable to ants if I don't keep all weeds from growing up 'till they touch the bottoms of the boxes
Option C seems like the surest way to keep the ants off, and could allow a little more flexibility in the hive placement (bolted down as opposed to having concrete poured around the "trees"); but it has a pretty steep cost factor, and would wipe out a lot of "plant space"

Any thoughts?


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## robherc

Ted Kretschmann said:


> I have a garden sprayer mixed with DAWN dish detergent... The soap kills the ants on contact and keeps killing. ... After soaping the ants and killing them I work my bees without fear of being eaten alive by the ants. Give Dawn a try. TED


I was wondering if the same "dish soap method" I've been using to control "stragglers" after removing hives from residences would work on other insects too. I actually keep a 1.5gal sprayer of dish soap+water ready with my "removal kit" anywise....will DEFINITELY have to give it a try on the fire ants! Thanks for the tip.


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## Intheswamp

Here's something you might consider. Mr. O.J. is a nice guy down in south Alabama close to the Florida line. Check it out about 3:30 into the video....


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## robherc

Hmmm...not sure about painting the area with baby oil+vaseline, but I like his 5/32" mesh idea...seems like that might be a good way to keep the mites down a bit (though I'll prob. use my own Beeswax+Olive Oil 100% natural & biodegradable goup in place of his petroleum goup in the catch tray). My hives are shaped a good bit differently than his, but I should be able to pretty easily modify to use his method on that one...once I get some new bees in my recently RIFA devastated hives.

Thanks for the good ideas guys; I'm going out to my property in the morning to start applying a few of them, we'll see where that get me... In the meantime, keep the good ones coming


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## Michael Bush

If you know where the colony is there are several things that can work. Boiling water is pretty effective. Borax, jelly and water in 1:1:1 works well as poison. A hose and a shovel don't work bad if you drown it well, dig and stir until you aren't hitting ants anymore...


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## Intheswamp

Michael, I've done the boiling water thing, even mixing in habanero peppers with it. I'm not sure if ya'll have the same variety of fire ants as we have down here, but the few times I tried it I was *AMAZED* at hearing the water gurgling down a full minute *after* I had finished pouring it into the mound! There nests go about as deep as kudzu roots go...DEEP! The boiling water didn't really work well, though. 

The hose and water deal is fun...but it never did much to the fire ants, either. Not really connected with this, but made me remember... There are a lot of watershed farm ponds in the area and during times of drought the shoreline recedes and the fire ants *love* to build beds on that moist ground. Once the rains come and the water rises the fire ants are flooded out. They will "cluster" on the surface of the water...a mound of fires ants without the dirt just floating along on the water....until they bump into something, like a boat!!!! Then it's the boarding party of 100,000 Black Beards!!!!! If you're not on the lookout for them they can *really* cause you some problems on the boat (most of the time just john boats on these ponds). I've seen mounds of ants floating along that were over a foot high and close to a couple of feet in diameter!!!! That really give you the creeps!!!

The only thing I can think of that I believe may work in an organic way is orange oil. I've never used it, but may just try some this year...melting the exoskeletons sounds like a fitting end to them. The problem down this way is the sheer numbers of colonies that will colonize an area. I rode down Hwy#20 that goes east/west from basically Fort Walton Beach, FL to Tallahassee a while back. The number of ant beds on the right of way was staggering...especially knowing there were *many* more that I didn't see. I know folks don't like poisons, but places that have a serious infestation of fire ants need something done. We're not talking about the guy that's got three or four beds on his property, but rather the property that has 20-30, maybe even a hundred or more on it...economically they can bring land values down and environmentally they can devastate small animal life, not to mention a danger to humans, especially the young and old.

Poisoning, though, is only a temporary solution...it will clear an area, but they will build right up to the edge of the treated area and once the poison breaks down they move back in...they are relentless.

Ed


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## robherc

Intheswamp said:


> We're not talking about the guy that's got three or four beds on his property, but rather the property that has 20-30, maybe even a hundred or more on it...


Or, in my case, *several hundred* mounds. I know of 5-10 in my pond/duck fence; 20+ in my dog runs; at least 30-45 in the sheep area; 2-3 have moved into the old mobile home (despite constant applications of permethrin to the support blocks); 6-8 that I've already been "fired up" by while working in my gardens; a dozen in between the pier footers for the new house; one that keeps hiding under the cement holding up my mailbox whenever I try to kill 'em; and I couldn't begin to even put a number on the rest of the property...too many to bother counting. There are actually sooo many RIFA ants on my property that they've kept out last year's & this year's mole boom that's invaded a lot of area nearby; not a single mole/mole hill on my property; I'm guessing the ants killed them all.




Intheswamp said:


> I'm not sure if ya'll have the same variety of fire ants as we have down here...


Good call, as I know for sure they haven't moved that far north yet... So, for those of you (most of the world's population) who don't live within about 100-150mi of the avg. southern border of the US (or in similarly infested areas in China, Japan, Australia, or S America), here's a Wikipedia article on these little demons. Hopefully it'll help explain why all of us have gone so crazy hateful over these "little" insect that have abdominal hymenoptera stingers like bees, attack en masse in groups of many thousands, and cause an estimated *$4,000,000,000.00* in damages every year in the US alone.
*Wikipedia: Red Imported Fire Ant (RIFA)*


P.S. Don't forget, we're talking about ants that ONE MOUND of 'em just wiped out 2 fairly healthy beehives that were suspended a few feet off the ground! Avg. length of ant "trails" that I spotted attacking the hives >=6 feet!

...heading over to attack the devils with some dish-soap water in a sprayer. I'll use the soap that's made with a bit of grapefruit oil in it, see if maybe that'll make it more effective at "melting the exoskeletons." Will update everyone on how well that works by this evening, and again in a couple days once I see if it really wiped 'em out, or just killed a few thousand of 'em.


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## Gypsi

If you get enough rainfall to keep beneficial nematodes alive in your soil, and if you don't use a lot of chemicals that will kill the nematodes, they find fireants very tasty, do not harm bees or earthworms, eat flea larva when they run out of ants. I've been using them since the 90's. They only eat insects in their under the ground stage. 

Gypsi


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## robherc

ok, so if my nematodes have been wiped out, how do I get some to "re-stock" with?


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## Gypsi

And compost tea - maybe with a bit of extra sugars from molasses to 7-up or other soda pop. The older organic solutions are a LOT more work than the bottle of orange oil, but fire ants have been in my part of Texas since the mid 1980's, and my property gets reinfested by the rivers that flow down the street during flooding rains. The fire ants haven't owned the place since I went to nematodes - but that did mean going organic for most everything else. 

Most feed stores carry beneficial nematodes in the spring. Russell Feed does anyway. 

Gypsi


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## robherc

Gypsi said:


> The fire ants haven't owned the place since I went to nematodes - but that did mean going organic for most everything else.


Well, first off; not I, but the fire ants have owned my place since WAY before I bought it, I'm afraid. Otherwise, though, I've already been working hard to go organic for everything except fire ant control. I fogged Malathion a few times when the coastal flooding got mosquito levels totally beyond reconing (and the county does that frequently too), but other than that I've tried to use fish, ducks, and dragonflies for 99% of my current mosquito control plan, with good success too. All fertilizer used is either grown (buckwheat & clover/legume crops for phosphate and nitrogen enrichment), or collected from my animals; essential oils in place of DEET or Permethrin for protection of persons/animals from biting insects, and I'm working out a red onion peel + tobacco juice formula for contact agricultural insecticide use. You think any of that would re-wipe out my nematodes after I get some re-added to the soil, or should I be safe? (my first suspect would maybe be the nicotine in the tobacco juice harming them...or killing my bees if I'm not careful with it)


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## Gypsi

When you apply nematodes you do it in a soaking manner, they can't live on the surface of the soil for long - so when the ground is moist, (water first if you have to), or right before a moderate rain. (half inch or so - when it will soak in, not run off). 

You aren't penetrating the soil when spot treating with the tobacco juice - your fertilizers are organic, so no, I don't think what you are using will kill them. 

Our droughts are why I have to reapply my nematodes - I don't water my perimeter areas at all - and the fire ants come in there. But I do still have pretty good protection in the areas I garden and therefore water, after a year or 2, sometimes 3. It is cheaper to reapply nematodes than to keep the edges of the lot watered all summer long. 

(and by the way, have you got an easy cure for aphids? I was going to use dilute dish soap on my pear tree leaves - I have removed the tiny black ants that were farming them from a hideout in a fold of pond liner) 

Gypsi


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## robherc

Gypsi said:


> (and by the way, have you got an easy cure for aphids? I was going to use dilute dish soap on my pear tree leaves - I have removed the tiny black ants that were farming them from a hideout in a fold of pond liner)


Tobacco juice, ladybugs, red onion peel tea... those would be my first 3 allies I'd try to call up in the fight against aphids.
Having failed with the above 3, I'd prob. give the soapy water a try; but it (and the tobacco+red onion) may poison the pollen+nectar in your blossoms, thus reducing your pollination on your pears, and the amount of bees in your hive boxes:scratch:


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## Gypsi

The aphid infected pear tree is all done blooming, and I have no bees at all until April. Had some ferals pollinating this one a couple of weeks ago. Sad thing is, now my other pear tree is in bloom, and I don't even see ferals...

I may just squish the aphids. These Aphids were planted by ants, these tiny black ants hid from the nematodes in a liner fold around one of my ponds, I removed the ants., poured a little vinegar in their nesting area.


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## harvey's honey florida

yellow corn meal killes ants - check almanac


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## Gypsi

Tried that corn meal on Texas fire ants - got more fire ants.


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## robherc

Gypsi said:


> ...I have no bees at all until April. Had some ferals pollinating this one a couple of weeks ago. Sad thing is, now my other pear tree is in bloom, and I don't even see ferals...


I don't quite understand the "no bees 'til April" part, are you a bee customer with a pollination contract? Or are you waiting for package bees in Apr?
Either way, if you'd like to get some bees of your own sooner, PM me and I'll tell you how I collected my bees; might save you some $$$ and prove to be fun+educational (costs $35 to file paperwork with TAIS & a little for equipment, but 90% of the equipment you'll be using you need for working your hives anywise)


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## Gypsi

If you dig through the forum there is a post called - Gypsi's bee story - all in one place. I got robbed out in October. I've got swarm traps out, but my local ferals (the ones that started as my may swarm last year) have probably been trapped or worse - no local bees for the last week.

I've got swarm traps in distant locations, haven't checked them lately. And I guess tomorrow afternoon I'll build my bee vac and catch boxes... I have a couple of nucs on order that should come in April.


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## robherc

robherc said:


> ...heading over to attack the devils with some dish-soap water in a sprayer. I'll use the soap that's made with a bit of grapefruit oil in it, see if maybe that'll make it more effective at "melting the exoskeletons." Will update everyone on how well that works by this evening, and again in a couple days once I see if it really wiped 'em out, or just killed a few thousand of 'em.


Well, so far I've used up a 64 fl.oz. bottle of dish soap, mixed up into 15 gallons of solution, and sprayed that on about 40-45 mounds (not all of my RIFA mounds, but I ran out of dish soap).
My observations so far are:
-The fire ants DO NOT LIKE getting sprayed directly with soapy water
-Soapy water, when applied directly will kill the ants, but it takes several minutes
-If you're really, REALLY careful about nozzle positioning you can get your garden sprayer to inject foam into the ant mound (I'm thinking of modifying the nozzle on my sprayer to make it more efficient at this)
-Foaming the mound traps ants inside better, and leaving a 1"-2" pile of suds over the whole top of the mound works REALLY WELL at trapping and killing LOTS of ants that might otherwise escape
-Foaming ant mounds is VERY time consuming when you have more than a few mounds (took me several hours, and I still have several more mounds that I'll have to treat when I go back over there of Thursday)
-Spraying a little soapy water on an "ant raft" of fire ants REALLY upsets them a *LOT* and is VERY amusing, as it causes a loss of surface tension in the water under them, and thus instantly sinks their "raft" lol...great fun

Anywise, I was able to verify for certain that soapy water is death to fire ants, in similar fashion to honeybees; so that part of the theory is proven. What we'll have to "wait and see" is if it actually will wipe out the entire colonies, or just kill the ants that it's applied directly to (I'm not sure which way I lean on this one entirely, though I'm fairly hopeful that giving the entire mound a thick "foam cap" may even starve the ants inside for Oxygen by stopping all airflow...like fleas on a sudsy dog ). I'll try kicking a few of the mounds that I treated after today's flash flood (gotta love when the rain helps you out by chasing the ants out of their deeeeep tunnels) when I go back over on Thursday; see how diminished/eliminated their populations are a couple days after treatment.










For those who don't have our Fire Ants, this is an average sized mound that happened to be right next to my pond (the dollar bill I placed there for a size reference, you don't want to know how much it hurt to get it back!)










The murdering minions gathering to gloat on one of my top bars on a hive they killed off; little do they know that their home has already been turned into:








This! HA HA HA HA!!! so much for THEIR victory dance; methinks their gloating may soon turn to crying once they see that their mound now has a nice, thick "foam cap"










This is (part of) my back field, where I have my hives...the wildflowers are just BEGGING me to not give up on getting them some pollinators (and neither the dewberries, nor the mesquite have begun to bloom yet, not to mention all of the flowering plants up in my gardens in the front 1/2 of the property!)


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## Gypsi

I'd have let them keep the dollar.
Post if it kills the whole mound.


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## whiskers

First you need to get one of these-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln17jYbVkfQ
And you thought your beekeeping hobby was expensive?
Then you make a cover that fits over the ant hill. Hook a steam line to the cover and run live steam into it for a half hour or so. Extra hot ant sauna.

I'll take my meds now and lie down.
Bill


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## summer1052

Things that kill and deter other ants usually don't even slow Fire ants down. As far as I know, the only effective systemic Fire ant remedies include agent orange and napalm. inch: They really are a terrible pest!

For the hives themselves: I have my hives on stands that have legs made of 4 X 4s. The legs sit in aluminum pie tins filled with Amdro granules. Tried setting the legs in oil, kerosene, and water, with no luck. The ants just walked over the backs of dead ants to get to the hive.

Make sure the ground around your hives is clear. One blade of grass leaning over and touching a stand is a bridge, and they will use it. I have seen Fire ants take down a really strong hive in 7 days. They go in, sting the pupae and kill them. They don't eat them, they just kill them. 

I work to keep the ants down in a radius around the house and yard, and around the hives. Getting all of them on my 22 acres would involve using methods and chemicals I don't want around the bees. And honestly, I'm really not sure you can get them with those methods. I just define my perimeters, and work to maintain them. 

Last year with the drought, they were fewer in number. We're getting rain this year (Praise God!) and I'm already seeing more of them.

Good luck! 
*Summer*


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## robherc

summer1052 said:


> <snip>...the only effective systemic Fire ant remedies include agent orange and napalm.


Hmmm, you know; I considered trying the napalm thing (no joke!), but it doesn't work... it kills the ants in the top couple inches, but the rest just go DEEP (remember, their tunnels often go deep enough to hit ground water...that's why you didn't see them last year) and the heat doesn't reach them.  (although, I must say, until I saw that they weren't all dead a couple days later, it really did feel rewarding to watch the mound roast!)



summer1052 said:


> I have seen Fire ants take down a really strong hive in 7 days.


FINALLY, someone who understands what I'm dealing with here!! I was starting to go mad wondering if I was the only one losing hives to these things!


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## robherc

whiskers said:


> First you need to get one of these-
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln17jYbVkfQ
> And you thought your beekeeping hobby was expensive?


LOL My wife HATES you now!!! Do you know how much "spending money" you may have just cost her?!? 

He he he  SOOOOO tempting; and I could actually use the steam tractor...been wanting to buy a tractor for plowing/box-blading a few areas anywise; might be a little cheaper+more rewarding to build a steam tractor than buy a diesel; and it'd give me somewhere to burn all this mesquite wood I have lying around from my battle with the prickly tree


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## summer1052

Oh, no, Rob! I'm right there with you! I understand! I have pretty sandy soil -- silty in some spots -- on most of my place, and the fire ants are terrible. I also have a lot of trouble with wax moths. Everyone keeps saying "oh, but a really STRONG hive will take care of the moths, don't worry about it!" I'm glad that works for them, but enough of ANY pest, and a hives go down. Period. inch: If they haven't walked a mile in my moccasins . . .

I am really unaware of anything systemic for the FA. I won't repeat here what DH thinks the F stands for, but I'm sure you can guess. :shhhh: Like I said, keep the ground bare around the hives, keep the grass short enough where you can to see the hills as they appear, define your perimeter, and walk the line every couple of days. Fight the ones you can, and hope for detente with the rest. If you spend all your time with the FA, you'll miss the WM, SHB, and wild hogs!

Go Fighting Sand Crabs! 

*Summer*


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## robherc

summer1052 said:


> If you spend all your time with the FA, you'll miss the WM, SHB, and wild hogs!


Hmmm...well, in the service, FA stands for Field Artillery.....now THAT might be an effective cure for the fireant hills!!! Now, to source a 155mm howitzer, a couple high explosive rounds, and somehow convince my neighbors to sign "release of liability" forms is case a round should level their house for them.....lol


BTW: Headin' over to the property shortly, will post on the status of the mounds I treated Tuesday after I get back....wish me luck & lots of DEAD ants guys!



P.S. WILD HOGS was a HILARIOUS movie, but if any Javelinas are found on my property at night, they'll be found in my FREEZER in the morning


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## robherc

Gypsi said:


> Post if it kills the whole mound.


Well, after kicking a dozen or so soap-treated mounds, I found TWO that appeared to have been wiped out, and three-four that appeared minimally injured (one was healthy enough to swarm up my leg and let me know EXACTLY what they thought of the guy who soaked 'em with soap, then stuck his foot in their home!); the other mounds were all significantly diminished in numbers, _possibly_ even down to near "critical mass"...so I'll give 'em a couple more days before making my final judgement. For now, however, the dish soap is looking a lot like a "Kills the ants it hits, and several others...but very *in*frequently gets all the queens in a colony" agent. I'll continue using it for now, as it's about as effective as Permethrin, but uses a natural, biodegradable agent instead of a highly toxic to ALL life forms (ok, maybe except for a couple "oil-eating bacteria" strains) Petroleum-based one.

Meanwhile, Gypsi, can you get me any more info on what specific nematodes I'm needing? I know there are MANY diff. species & strains of nematode (technically, aren't earthworms nematodes too?), I've raised a few in the past (as food for newly hatched cichlid & betta fry), but don't know which species eats ants+fleas. I'm thinking of maybe culturing HUGE batches of them indoors, then applying them (by soaking method) directly to the fire ant mounds/nematode all-you-can-eat buffets... see if maybe the "organic" method can also be used as a "quick" method via direct, massive, administration


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## Gypsi

No idea exactly what strain - they are mentioned in this flea control article from my feed store. The package tells what strain, but I tossed that last March. 
http://www.russellfeedandsupply.com/articles-videos/articles/783-2010-07-783


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## whiskers

Google nematodes ants, get lots of hits, this is the first.
http://www.dirtworks.net/Fire-Ant-Nematodes.html
Latin names, Steinernema carpocapsae and Heterorhabditis indica are part way down. Expensive, but if those ants are as nasty as I've heard, worth it.
Bill


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## robherc

Thanks whiskers.

I did the Google search, printed off about 10-15pp worth of university research papers on them too.  Now I'm just trying to find the cheapest source for some Steinernema Carpocapsae and Heterorhabditis Bacteriophora (not bad, you were only about 1 species away from what I finally decided on...good call...I just like the idea of "makin' 'em glow" with the phosphorescent bacteria the H. Bacteriophora keep as symbiotes!). Once I get some of those two ordered, I'll prob. dig up 1-2 RIFA mounds to use as "victims" & feed them to the nematodes in a controlled environment (and an ant-proof container, so none of the ones who don't get eaten quickly enough will get out and get me); use the captured ant colonies to build up the nematodes' numbers so I'll have enough to treat more land with. 
Now I almost can't wait to find my first WM or SHB larvae in my hive boxes, they're supposed to be GREAT for culturing these nematodes "in vivo" in.....mwah ha ha ha! *continues evil cackling as he heads out to go check the hives for any shb larvae to use as "victims"*


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## Moccasin

Armadillos eat them because they are really an anteater anyway. It is too bad they are not protected.


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## Intheswamp

Moccasin said:


> Armadillos eat them because they are really an anteater anyway. It is too bad they are not protected.


Armadillos are just about as destructive as fire ants.

Ed


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## robherc

*UPDATE*

SUCCESS!!! I was back over at the property yesterday with the intention of spraying more soapy water to keep the ants' numbers suppressed until I could find/afford a more successful approach (found out it's gonna cost about $175+ to get the nematodes to treat my property). Well, I got out my sprayer, loaded it up, then went to start out by re-spraying a lot of the mounds I'd treated on Thursday. When I kicked the first one, though, there was no response at all, couldn't find a live ant! I ended up finding about 6-10 that were totally wiped out, and several more that were very weak! So, with much more hope, and greatly renewed vigor, I went about dousing as many mounds as I could find for the next 4-5hrs!

After that, I'm going to have to upgrade my evaluation of the soapy water method to:
Kills tens of thousands of RIFAs within minutes on contact, and, if sufficiently soaked into all entrances to the mound, wipes out mounds over the course of several days. Of course, it's still a very time-intensive approach if you have a large number of mounds, but at least there's hope (it even did better than soaking Permethrin into the mounds for less $$$ and with a Biodegradable, non-polluting agent)!


Side Note:
Now that I finally have a way to (hopefully) keep the ants from wiping out my beehives, I got a call about a just-moved-in hive in someone's horse barn that I'm scheduled to remove tonight. Wish me luck & lots of healthy bees!


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## robherc

Got the hive out of the horse barn.... She (the property owner) wasn't joking when she said the hive was new!! When I first opened up the wall I thought I saw 5-6combs covered in bees; then I touched the first "comb" with my sharpened hive tool that I use for loosening feral comb and *splash* about 3/4lb of bees (hanging in a "beard" with no comb there) dropped down and splashed into my hive box below...lol In the end, I found 3 4-5"x6" combs that were all SUPER soft & new, with only the tiniest bit of honey/pollen in any of the three of them. I was not, however, able to locate any eggs (didn't have much light, though, as I do my cut-outs at night) or brood in a single cell of the comb?? The bees had supposedly been there for 4-5 days, shouldn't there have been a *few* hatched eggs already?
Anywise, I got all the bees I could into my hive; spliced in 2 of the combs that had a mix of honey/pollen in the central cells; put the one comb with only honey, no pollen, in a 5gal bucket; then (after searching everywhere OUTSIDE of my box several times for the Queen) doused the "stragglers" with soapy water so the homeowner wouldn't have a couple thousand upset, homeless bees to deal with in the morning.
My big concern right now, is that there's a chance I might have missed getting the queen into my hive box (with enough bees in there to coat the bottom of the box 3" deep in bees, finding her would be nearly impossible), and without having seen any hatched brood, I'm not so sure they'll be able to raise an emergency queen if needed. Should I try to place a "rush order" for a queen from someone, "just to be safe," or do you guys think I should just "hang in there" and wait to see what happens? (unfortunately, the RIFA wiped out all my other bees, so raising a Queen from another hive's not an option  )
















Images taken with my Blackberry Bold (using phone's flash at night, so autofocus isn't ideal)


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## Slow Modem

Hopefully, the queen is in there somehwere. If you had a couple of frames of brood to put in there, that might help. If not, maybe you can find a replacement queen.

I hope it works out for you!


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## robherc

LOL, I think I should've spent more time examining the combs, and less time worrying. Just brought in the comb with "only a little honey" in it to examine in better light... Looks like I'm the moron today! ROFL (don't I wish I hadn't left this comb in a bucket overnight!)

click to view a 100% crop (Image taken in a well-lit room using my BlackBerry Bold [autofocus set to "closeup"])


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## Intheswamp

Why not stick it in the hive...what have you got to lose?

Ed


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## oklabizznessman

Here's a home remedy. We never had any luck with cornmeal but instant grits is another answer.
Now I'm not sure of the cost for a problem as big as yours but the idea is they take the grits into the colony and begin sharing the instant grits. The grits hit the ol' digestive system .... absorbS a little moisture and POOOF!!!! INSTANT EXPLOSION!!! GRITS EXPANDED AND BLEW THE ANT AWAY!!!


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## robherc

Intheswamp said:


> Why not stick it in the hive...what have you got to lose?


Well, I was *going* to put it in the hive today, but...

I brought the hive to my property this morning; installed a pair of "tees" to hang the hive box from (while the hive was sitting in a nice, cool, shady place several hundred feet away); opened the "door" (see pics) about 1/2"-1" and watched the bees come out for a few minutes. After about 10 minutes I was pretty sure it looked like a swarm in the air coming out of my hive (about a 20-30' diameter, dense "cloud" of bees) but I decided to give them a while before I messed with 'em to put the last comb in there. So we went to a local restaurant to eat, came back and, about 1 hr after opening the door to the hive, there were only about 30-50 bees left in my box (and no queen)...they ABSCONDED on me!
A quick run-down on the hive:
*On the lid of the box I have 1/8" strips of wood stapled underneath, acting as spacers for the sheet of aluminum foil, giving a 1/8" air-gap with an aluminum radiant heat barrier to insulate from the direct sunlight hitting the lid. 
*Near the bottom front of the hive I drilled 10 9/64" ventilation holes for the bees.
*After the bees left, I checked and there WERE eggs in just about every cell that wasn't full of pollen/honey, on the two combs I'd already put in there; so they abandoned their brood when they left. 
*I ran the math on the hive's size; if the bees filled in every bar with comb, down to a 3/8" bee space all-around, they'd have about 1433 sq.in. of "comb space" (I came up with 1360 sq.in. of "comb-space" when I ran the math on a 10-frame deep Lang. super using the "Dadant Frames Template" hosted on this site)
*All lumber is virgin Southern Yellow Pine, with a little bit of epoxy holding things together.

So, does anyone have any fairly-sure ideas as to why they left? I do NOT think it's a "space issue" as this hive's bigger than a 10-frame Lang. Super; I *thought* I had enough insulation/ventilation for transporting (and there was no "wet mess" of regurgitated honey inside the box...all dry there); I've relocated 2 other hives to that property, and neither of them absconded immediately. My personal guesses (an maybe they could even be called "uneducated" at this point) are that they overheated in transit, or maybe were still too upset from the jarring they took on the trip (I noticed a couple broken-off pieces from the 2 combs that made the trip in the hive, sitting on the hive bottom). Trip length last night (from old hive spot to my apt.) was about 10-15mins (they stayed in a protected spot on my back porch overnight after); and trip length this morning (from my apt. to my property) was about 35-45mins with them in the trunk of my car, the back seat folded down a bit, and the A/C blowing back there to "keep 'em cool."
At this point, ANY ideas would be appreciated...I'm 0 for 3 on keeping bees in my hives now (2 killed off by RIFA, 1 absconded) and it's getting pretty frustrating. 



My "Capture Hive" sitting on a pair of brand-new hive "tees" (the bolts in the "litter poles" are because I made them in 2 sections...the back section will be built into another "Capture Hive" once I get all the parts cut)
Click to enlarge, notice the 10 9/64" ventilation holes @ the bottom corners, and the pain-in-the-butt to engineer frame hanging on the back cross-beam








A close-up of the "door"








Side view of the hive box


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## robherc

oklabizznessman said:


> We never had any luck with cornmeal but instant grits is another answer.


I actually know a place where I can buy grits in bulk; does it have to be instant variety? (might cost more, not sure if the bulk store has instant)


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## Gypsi

Moving them twice might have made them feel insecure. I just park mine, even if it is 10:30 at night, and let them sort themselves out, spilled honey and all. I left all the honey and comb, hung with rubber bands from frames, in the hive. Friday's got here about 3 pm, so I was a little worried about absconding. Last night I got in at 10:30 pm, and they didn't abscond, but they did hide in the beevac tube while their honey was stolen by Friday's bees. Someone moved into my nuc swarm trap on the trailer, and another swarm moved into my beetree. I suspect the nuc is yesterday's cutout, but not sure, since I saw bee activity near it when I was trying to raid for frames the other day. 

Bees are bees and they do as they please... 

Better luck soon!

Dadant has a shiny metal hive stand that has great potential in antproofing. you can grease metal, won't hurt bees, ants can't climb it, axle grease would probably work. 

Gypsi


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## Ted Kretschmann

Glad you had good luck with the suds methods of fireant control. You can also before a rain sprinkle clothes soap on the top of the mounds. The soap dissolves and soaks down into the mound killing the little devils on contact. But the sprayer with dawn dishsoap works the best. TED


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## 3RSJ Farms

Ted could you share how much dawn dishsoap you use in the sprayer?

Dave


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## Ted Kretschmann

About four ounces to a two gallon sprayer. You want the water to have a nice blue color to it. Basically the stronger you make the better killing power it has. TED


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## robherc

Ted Kretschmann said:


> About four ounces to a two gallon sprayer.


Wow, you're SOOO much more sophisticated with it than I was....lol I just gave my 1.5gal sprayer a really good squeeze of Ajax each time I filled it....then if it didn't "foam up" very well, I gave it a little more. 
BTW have you tried using liquid laundry soap instead of dish soap? I tried "Purple Power" biodegradable cleaner/degreaser, but it's not nearly as effective; hoping the laundry soap, being cheaper than dish soap, will be similarly effective to the dish soap?? (I know, it sounds cheap, but I'm treating several dozen mounds at a time, and I haven't even mown the hay field to *find* most of them yet!)


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## Ted Kretschmann

I believe with time that sudsing fire ants will become standard ant control in use by your typical homeowner in the south land. Robherc, grits dont work. TED


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## Gypsi

Did the grits just make more fire ants? (my corn meal try did)


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## Scrapfe

harvey's honey florida said:


> yellow corn meal killes ants - check almanac





Gypsi said:


> Tried that corn meal on Texas fire ants - got more fire ants.


http://msucares.com/insects/fireants/facts.html
Above is the short form about fire ant biology.

Notice that fire ants not only live but even hunt from under ground tunnels that may cover a acre or more. The ants emerge though sally ports to forage or ambush prey. Seeding the soil with nematodes sounds like the old tale about throwing Brer Rabbet in the briar patch when you could have easily knocked his block clear off while you had him in your hands. (See the Walt Disney flick, *Song of the South *cia (1946) Besides, as much as fire ants are in contact with the soil I don’t see how they could begin to live much less thrive if nematodes harmed many fire ants. However nematodes do harm many plant species so if you’re planning on sowing nematodes in a spot of ground where you’re also planning on growing a garden, be advised that you may have to apply a pesticide to your soil in the form of a nematicide before you can grow a garden. 

I have heard the old corm meal urban legend almost as long as I have spoke English. Like most myths and legends there is a grain (or grit) of truth in the yellow corn meal myth. Yellow cornmeal (usually impregnated with some type of eatable fat or oil to make it attractive to foraging ants) is the carrier or delivery system (granules if you will) for a wide range of fire ant poisons. Adult fire ants can not chew or even swallow solid food so they must first take every particle of food they gather back to the mound and feed it to their brood. The fire ant brood chews up or macerates the solid food, swallows it, and spits it back up in a form that the grown ants can then eat. Do you see now why it is important for any fire ant bait to first make it to the brood nest and then be fed to the brood before it can even begin to kill the worker ants or their queen? Besides if you kill all the brood the adults soon starve. 

It used to be a common sight to see WWII surplus B17 Flying Fortress or B24 Liberators flying at low altitudes along rail road right of ways while dropping yellow corn meal impregnated with fire ant poison. This worked fairly well by creating a narrow beaten zone that fire ants had difficulty living in or migrating across. Not any more. Environmental organizations sued the USDA because no one knew how many ground nesting baby birds the ant bait killed. So now the red imported fire ants are killing and eating the ground nesting baby birds. But hey, that’s called progress. inch:

The only holistic treatment for red imported fire ants that has any chance of working in Texas or for that matter Alabama is Lone Star beer. Now Lone Star beer doesn’t harm the first fire ant but if you drink a large enough quantity of cold Lone Star and then recycle the beer liberally over the fire ant mound, you’ll feel better about having fire ants on your property. 



Intheswamp said:


> Michael, I've done the boiling water thing... I was *AMAZED* at hearing the water gurgling down a full minute *after* I had finished pouring it into the mound!... The boiling water didn't ... work...


FYI at least one tunnel in every fire ant colony goes all the way down to the water table. Good luck flooding them out. One of the WORST things you can do to HELP fire ants is to monkey around with the mound. Any disturbance to the mound may cause the ants to relocate the mound several feet to several yards over night. Repeat disturbances will eventually find the mound moved where it is both out of your sight and out of your mind, but your fire ant problem is still just below your feet. That is just what the ants are betting on.


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## Gypsi

I have grown a garden in beds raised or ground level that I. 
Treated with nematodes for ten years and produced more 
Fruits and vegetables than my neighbors. Have another beer
Scrapfe.
Gypsi


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## robherc

Scrapfe said:


> Seeding the soil with nematodes sounds like the old tale about throwing Brer Rabbet in the briar patch when you could have easily knocked his block clear off while you had him in your hands. (See the Walt Disney flick, Song of the South cia (1946) Besides, as much as fire ants are in contact with the soil I don’t see how they could begin to live much less thrive if nematodes harmed many fire ants. However nematodes do harm many plant species so if you’re planning on sowing nematodes in a spot of ground where you’re also planning on growing a garden, be advised that you may have to apply a pesticide to your soil in the form of a nematicide before you can grow a garden.





Gypsi said:


> I have grown a garden in beds raised or ground level that I.
> Treated with nematodes for ten years and produced more
> Fruits and vegetables than my neighbors.


I've now done _quite a bit_ of research on several different types of nematodes....some are grown as fish feed (I.E. microworms and others...usually of the yeast-consuming varieties), some are grown to eat insects (ever wonder why fire ants are NOT native to the Southern US? Some of the best fire-ant killing nematodes are native to the Rio Grande valley, and other southern US areas...our love for polluting the ground with chemicals cleared the way for the ants to invade), others have found no widespread human use, but feed on insects, bacteria, fungi, or yes, plants. ALL of the nematodes that are currently commercially marketed for insect control have no affinity for (or ability to digest) plant material; they survive ONLY by entering the bodies of insects &/or arachnids, where their symbiotic bacterial flora proceed to break down the insect into a "goo" that the nematodes can digest (oh yeah, and one of them actually seems to like eating a couple varieties of plant-parisitizing nematodes too). So yes, *some* nematodes parasitize plants, but the ones Gypsi is referring to in this thread are beneficial to the plants (by killing plant parasites), and in no direct way harm any plants.


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## summer1052

Scrapfe, since I live only 20 miles from Shiner, would it be okay to substitute Shiner Bock for the Lone Star?  I realize that tweaking the chemical composition of your remedy might make a difference there.

Gypsi, I must respectfully disagree. I tried grease on the legs, in cans around the legs, tanglefoot, kerosene, water, and all the other suggestions. Time and again, the ants just walked over other dead ants to get to the hive. Hence, my use of Amdro granules. They don't walk over the Amdro. However, I AM glad to hear it worked for someone! Grits is just another form of cornmeal, and I had no luck there, either. 

I have had little success with nematodes and various forms of BT here in TX, but I used both successfully in Denver. Seems to be a matter of where you are and what works. I'm glad suds worked for robherc, but all I got was clean fire ants with soft hands! inch:

Also waging war with gophers here. The FA like to follow the gophers and make ant hills where the gophers have left their hills. I'm still thinking napalm, or very tiny thermonuclear devices . . . {growl}

Good luck, all y'all!
*Summer*


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## robherc

summer1052 said:


> I'm glad suds worked for robherc, but all I got was clean fire ants with soft hands! inch:


How much suds did you give 'em (per mound), and how thick did you mix it (i.e. how much soap per gallon) before application? The suds WILL kill any/all insects it's applied to, if enough gets on 'em & it's mixed strong enough...and it still sometimes takes 4-6 days to kill of an entire FA mound. (BTW, I tried the biodegradable degreaser again last night, but used about 5x as much as before....FAR better results than before with it...though now I'm using more $$$ per gallon with it than with the dish soap...so I'll be switching back as soon as this jug runs out)


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## Slow Modem

summer1052 said:


> Also waging war with gophers here. The FA like to follow the gophers and make ant hills where the gophers have left their hills. I'm still thinking napalm, or very tiny thermonuclear devices . . . {growl}


I'm reminded of Bill Murray as the groundskeeper in Caddyshack going after the go-fers.


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## Gypsi

Our droughts kill the nematodes. In the areas of my yard that I keep moist - no fire ants. From the property line in they are reinvading now, carried by the flood down the street, and I will re-treat. My apiary area is deep in on my lot, and I will supplement with amdro as needed, but my soil type is black gumbo / rich topsoil, and not their favorite either. The nematodes like it. Like beekeeping, fire ant killing is a local matter. My point was nematodes didn't even hurt my tomatoes. Lack of bees hurt fruiting a couple of years ago, but not nematodes.


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## Scrapfe

summer1052 said:


> Scrapfe, since I live only 20 miles from Shiner, would it be okay to substitute Shiner Bock for the Lone Star? ... I realize that tweaking the chemical composition of your remedy might make a difference...


 Summer, relatively speaking the only one that it matters to is you. The fire ants don't care either way. 
“If you got um, chug um!!!”  ...Burp


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## robherc

*Success!!!*

I now have 3 live hives hanging from the stand I posted a pic of earlier... 0 Fire Ants have crossed the "grease zone" so far, and I have the number of mounds on the property in a bit of a decline! Thanks to everyone for your input; now for me to deal with the AHB (no, I didn't have her DNA tested, but she's unbelievably prolific, and her daughters are MEAN) Queen in one of the colonies...but that requires raising a few queen cells from the gentler colony first.......
Anywise, if anyone else is still having FA problems, feel free to commandeer the thread; I think my battle with 'em is finally turning in my favor


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## dcerdeiras

One trick I use on sugar ants was to sprinkle cinnamon on the inner cover of the hive. The bees don't mind (just don't drown them in the stuff), but the ants do. Some ant species are more resiliant to it than others, like the Florida carpenter ant (big ants that attack the hive for the larvae, scary sight), but repeated application over the ground and on the actual ant mound seemed to have driven them away for good. Don't know if it will work on fire ants as I have never had that problem, but it can't hurt to try (be sure to get a big container of the stuff).


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## robherc

I haven't tried the cinnamon trick myself, but I've heard several reports that it doesn't work on the RIFA ants... That said, has anyone had success fighting fire ants with cinnamon? If so, how much did you have to use, and how did you administer it?
...With soo many variables in beekeeping, I'm learning to never throw out an Idea just because it didn't work for a couple people. And, just as importantly, that just because something WORKED for a couple people doesn't mean it'll work for someone else. :scratch:


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## ycitybz

I have had some trouble with ants here in Ohio and I sprinkled cinnamon. Worked great and have had no problems with them since. Not sure it will work with fire ants. Sounds like they are mean enough to take the cinnamon and make rolls with it...
Good Luck


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## jim lyon

My experience with RIFA is that there are plenty of products that will kill a given mound but their ability to reproduce and infest an area when the conditions are right is why they are so difficult to control. I have heard reports of people who have seen large clumps of them floating on a river like a large ball in floods until they reach dry land again. I thought perhaps after the record breaking drought here in East Texas that they might have really suffered a set back, no such luck they are back like nothing ever happened.


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## Intheswamp

jim lyon said:


> M<snip> I have heard reports of people who have seen large clumps of them floating on a river like a large ball in floods until they reach dry land again. I thought perhaps after the record breaking drought here in East Texas that they might have really suffered a set back, no such luck they are back like nothing ever happened.


I haven't seen the floating colonies on a river but I've *definitely* seen them on some farm ponds. Bump into one of those piles with a boat and see what happens!!!!!!!!!! 

Drought doesn't bother them, it's like they are like those kids toys that grow a zillion times bigger by "just adding water". inch:

Ed


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## GED

Interesting experience today with fireants. I had a few ants in a hive cover and knocked them off, but they kept coming from somewhere. A close inspection revealed that the ants had made tunnels into the styrofoam cover and had their own nest right inside the hive. No more styrofoam for me. I used smoke to get them out since it was all that I had. They had a small hole out the top and numerous larger ones to the inside. I'm ordering a wood top Monday.

Ed


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## Lburou

*Re: Fire ants!!!!!*

Rob, I'm finding this thread late, but wanted to tell you a secret I used on my four acres of Brazos river bottom land in North Central Texas. When we bought this house five years ago, you couldn't step off the porch without stepping on a sandbur (also called grass burs) or a fire ant. Not even one step. 

I'm still working on the sandburs and ants too, but can walk barefooted in the yard now without incident and haven't seen a fire ant in the yard for a year! An old timer living next door, much older than my 64 years anyway, helped me understand that you give the ants just enough poison to stay in the mound and die. Too much poison and they just move and start up ten feet away. His favorite poison was the white powdered Ortho stinky stuff. I prefer the Amdro bait. If you put too much down, they just move...You will have to experiment on your own to learn where the dance is on quantity. HTH


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## robherc

*Re: Fire ants!!!!!*

thanks for the tip Lee


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