# Mite levels



## zhiv9

For the successful treatment-free beekeepers - Do you see a lot of mites in your colonies? Do you think your bees have a high tolerance to varroa and can coexist with high infestation rates or do you think they have adapted to keep mite populations low?

I am currently practicing IPM. Testing my colonies for mites this week I see a wide range of infestation rates >1% to 10%. While some of the colonies with a high infestation rate were poorer performers, others were some of my best colonies production-wise.


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## squarepeg

hi adam,

i do see some mites in my colonies. i purchased the double screened jar for alcohol washes but i've only used it once, and that was to confirm that a colony which dwindled down to a couple of handfuls of bees and their queen had a severe mite infestation, probably close to 100%.

i lost 4 out of 19 colonies last winter, two nucs and two established colonies. they tended to be the lesser performing ones in my yard. only one was devoid of any bees by mid winter, and all four had observable queen failure by the presence of capped drone brood in worker cells. i looked hard for mite frass in these colonies but was only able to find a little here and there, and not anything like i found with the confirmed mite infestation.

in general, i feel like overall vigor in my yard is improving with each year. i haven't seen any dwv or diseased brood removal this season whereas i have seen that occasionally in previous seasons. out of my current 19 colonies there is only one that i would describe as a dink. i plan to inspect that one on friday and do an alcohol wash.

it's possible that not treating and allowing the winnowing process to work itself out is responsible for the overall improvement i am seeing, but it could be due to other factors or just chance.

during my spring inspections this year it was not unsual for me to break open drone cells that were bridged in the space between boxes. i took that opportunity to look for varroa, and even pulled a few larvae from capped drone comb on the frames. in all i was only able to find one foundress mite and her son, but i assume there were more that i didn't see.


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## Juhani Lunden

zhiv9 said:


> For the successful treatment-free beekeepers - Do you see a lot of mites in your colonies? Do you think your bees have a high tolerance to varroa and can coexist with high infestation rates or do you think they have adapted to keep mite populations low?
> I am currently practicing IPM. Testing my colonies for mites this week I see a wide range of infestation rates >1% to 10%. While some of the colonies with a high infestation rate were poorer performers, others were some of my best colonies production-wise.


I see mites in them. Not just in dronebrood, sometimes walking on the bees. Very often in the microscope, when getting sperm from drones.
I used to see them on the hive bottoms, but not any more, for some reason I cannot imagine.

They must do both, tolerate and keep the numbers low, to survive in practical beekeeping environment. You cannot keep bees so, that they cannot get loads of mites from some other hives, sometimes. Sometimes advises are given to take all the suffering hives to their own yards, but in practise that is impossible.

Infestation levels vary, from almost 0 to well over 10%, they usually are getting high in some time during the summer, I suppose because bees get angry. Some of them change their queen to survive, but not very many. Usually they just calm down, and in the end of the summer they are normal again. Sometimes I reconed that 5% is the acceptable limit, but nowdays I don´t really know, I don´t care, how much they have mites. More or less, what does it matter!

In recent years I have not experienced any unexpected crashes, bees dying in mid summer or in autumn. This happend earlier, in the beginning of this breeding project.


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## Michael Bush

>For the successful treatment-free beekeepers - Do you see a lot of mites in your colonies?

I don't see a lot. No.

> Do you think your bees have a high tolerance to varroa and can coexist with high infestation rates or do you think they have adapted to keep mite populations low?

All the bees I ever had that had high infestation rates died. The Russians seemed to tolerate more before they died...


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## estreya

Squarepeg, excellent post on an interesting thread. Have you always been treatment free? I've been reading about the "treatment treadmill" which seems to suggest that once you start treating, you'll never be able to stop. My husband and i have two hives, both of which currently have varroa issues. I never intended to treat, but the thought of losing both hives this winter is challenging my resolve a bit.


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## squarepeg

thanks estraya,

i kind of fell into beekeeping when some hives were abandoned on my property after their keeper passed away. by the time i got involved most of those were too far gone, but i got interested enough to get some more bees. the bees i got just happened to come from an supplier that wasn't treating, so i decided to not treat and see how they would do. so far so good, although this is only my fifth season.

my supplier started his from tree cut outs in 1996. this is when varroa hit this area hard and colonies were dying left and right. he located and observed these feral bees and noticed that they weren't dying. he started out with five and has been propagating from them the whole time off treatments. two of the original five colonies are still going and haven't had to be requeened since they were captured.

it seems to be working here for some reason or more likely some combination of reasons. i got lucky. i think the best chance of being successful with tf is finding someone in your area who is successful, getting your bees from them, and emulating their methods.

a more challenging alternative would be to locate some feral bees. observe them at least through one winter of survival, and then collect them or a swarm from them.

as far as the treadmill goes, i'm not sure because i don't have any experience to pull from. my guess is that if you have bees that aren't going to make it this year without help, there's no reason to expect them to make it next year. one option to consider would be to help them this year and then requeen them next year with proven stock if you can find it. if you do treat, i would definitely avoid any chemicals that leave residues in the wax.


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## estreya

Wow, what an amazing journey for you! It must be more than just "luck" if you've been at it for five years now ...

I think we'll just take it one step at a time here and try to make the best decisions as we go along. Thanks very much for your response, and continued good luck with your hives!


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## squarepeg

sounds like a great plan.

you may already be familiar with these resources, useful info if you can invest the time to wade through it:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm


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## zhiv9

Thanks for the feedback and I certainly welcome further feedback.

Juhani, I read through your website and it is quite the treatment free journey you have been on. A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit Helsinki and Espoo. You live in a beautiful country that reminded me very much of home.


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## Michael Bush

> I've been reading about the "treatment treadmill" which seems to suggest that once you start treating, you'll never be able to stop.

That is a bit of an overstatement. Any pesticide "treadmill" has its issues getting off, but Varroa has less issues than say, aphids on your soybeans... you spray for aphids you kill the predators of aphids and now you have more aphids and have more need to treat. You treat for Varroa, you may perpetuate genes that don't tolerate Varroa well, but you did not kill off any significant amount of predators. I'd say for a "treadmill" it's one of the easier ones to get off of.


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## beemandan

In this same vein, Tom Seeley checked some feral colonies...colonies that were so far from any managed bees as to be certain that they were genuine, long term survivors. Upon testing those colonies, he found that they were heavily infested with mites but seemed to survive all the same. From his observations it would seem that in those surviving colonies it wasn't a lack of mites but some form of coexistence.


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## zhiv9

I am trying to select possible breeders for next season. Intuitively I would select the colonies with both good production and fewer mites, but I guess there is a possible case to be made for colonies that have a high mite tolerance - or is it the mites in those colonies that are different?


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## Michael Bush

>I guess there is a possible case to be made for colonies that have a high mite tolerance - or is it the mites in those colonies that are different? 

My guess is it is a combination of things, including mite tolerance and less virulent mites and better grooming and more hygiene and who knows what else. That's why I think you should look at the big picture. Are they healthy and gentle and productive? Isn't that what matters? Do I have to know the actual cause especially when it's probably some complex combination of things?


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## zhiv9

Michael Bush said:


> >
> Are they healthy and gentle and productive? Isn't that what matters? Do I have to know the actual cause especially when it's probably some complex combination of things?


While gentle and productive are more obvious, healthy can be hard to tell visually. A healthy colony can build up and look great and not show a lot of visual signs of high infestation until its too late and collapses.


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## beemandan

zhiv9 said:


> Intuitively I would select the colonies with both good production and fewer mites, but I guess there is a possible case to be made for colonies that have a high mite tolerance - or is it the mites in those colonies that are different?


If the answers were easy....someone would have done it long ago. Collect good data and keep complete records.....and in a few seasons you may have your answer. Until then just speculation.
Good luck.


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## Michael Bush

> A healthy colony can build up and look great and not show a lot of visual signs of high infestation until its too late and collapses. 

In the short term, yes. But if it's been healthy and untreated for several years, it's more obvious. I never breed from them until they have survived a minimum of one winter and preferably two or three.


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## Lburou

This has been the most reasonable exchange of ideas I've seen on this subject on beesource in the short time I've been here. Thanks to each participant. 

subscribed.


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## Juhani Lunden

beemandan said:


> In this same vein, Tom Seeley checked some feral colonies...colonies that were so far from any managed bees as to be certain that they were genuine, long term survivors. Upon testing those colonies, he found that they were heavily infested with mites but seemed to survive all the same. From his observations it would seem that in those surviving colonies it wasn't a lack of mites but some form of coexistence.


Vey interesting! Where can I read this study?

In my breeding work I have always selected for fewer mites, but I have doing tests only once or twice a year. Just to have some idea of the general situation and reinsurance to my thoughts of some particular queen or line. Look at the breeding quality: a big brood area with even cell caps is not good, a reasonable brood area with high cell caps is better. 

Zhiv9, while visiting Kirk Webster 2011 we dropped by in Canada too. Immidiatelly when we crossed the border I felt something, familiarity maybe...


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## zhiv9

Juhani Lunden said:


> Vey interesting! Where can I read this study?


I think this is the one Dan was referencing:

http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/89/22/36/PDF/hal-00892236.pdf


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## beemandan

zhiv9 said:


> I think this is the one Dan was referencing


That's it.



Juhani Lunden said:


> In my breeding work I have always selected for fewer mites,...


Yes...you and countless other queen breeders. And to my knowledge none have produced queens that can be sold and consistently maintain low mite populations.
In Seeley's study he introduced mites from maintained hives to those same Arnot Forest colonies and the mite populations grew at the same rate as in his conventional hives.....strongly suggesting that the Arnot Forest ferals originally had less virulent mites.


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## Michael Bush

>strongly suggesting that the Arnot Forest ferals originally had less virulent mites.

One possibility. They were also on natural comb...


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## peterloringborst

> I've been reading about the "treatment treadmill" which seems to suggest that once you start treating, you'll never be able to stop.


This is false. The whole principal of IPM is to use non-chemical controls wherever possible. And to use chemical controls only when and as long as needed. I have taken antibiotics short term for infections, I don't have to take them for the rest of my life. If your bees can handle mites, so be it. If they need help, for goodness sake, help them. That's all I'm saying. Sure, they're not pets but they are worth caring for.


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## peterloringborst

> >strongly suggesting that the Arnot Forest ferals originally had less virulent mites.


This has been repeated so many times, nobody even remembers where it came from. I live a half hour from the Arnot Forest. So many myths have their source there, one wonders if it is a cosmic focal point of some sort.


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## Juhani Lunden

beemandan said:


> That's it.
> 
> Yes...you and countless other queen breeders. And to my knowledge none have produced queens that can be sold and consistently maintain low mite populations.


Good indication, that you have made something right is when another beekeeper says they are resistant:
http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_PJ_2011.html


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## zhiv9

peterloringborst said:


> This has been repeated so many times, nobody even remembers where it came from. I live a half hour from the Arnot Forest. So many myths have their source there, one wonders if it is a cosmic focal point of some sort.


Check out the link to the study I posted earlier in this thread and you will have your answer. It was one possible conclusion drawn by Seeley, here's a snippet:

"In the Arnot Forest, where the colonies are living in forest trees separated by hundreds, if not thousands,
of meters (see Fig. 2), drifting of bees between colonies is most unlikely and robbing may also
be exceedingly rare. If so, then we can expect avirulence to have evolved in the V. destructor
mites in the Arnot Forest, especially if the bees/mites living there are largely isolated
from bees/mites in colonies being managed by beekeepers, which is probably the case. At
present, however, there is no direct evidence of reduced reproduction by the V. destructor
mites in the Arnot Forest, though this hypothesis...."


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## zhiv9

peterloringborst said:


> This is false. The whole principal of IPM is to use non-chemical controls wherever possible. And to use chemical controls only when and as long as needed.


I practice IPM, but in looking at my test results, the relationship or sometimes lack thereof between mite infestation % and productivity I was questioning whether treatment thresholds were the best way of determining if treatment is required. If a colony with 10% infestation can produce 3+ supers of honey, is it "sick"? Should it be requeened? or if it survives the winter should it's high tolerance to mites be perpetuated through breeding. I guess was just questioning the "as needed" part.

It does seem that most treatment-free beekeepers have few/fewer mites, so perhaps a tolerance to larger scale infestation isn't as much of a factor as other traits.


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## Juhani Lunden

zhiv9 said:


> I practice IPM, but in looking at my test results, the relationship or sometimes lack thereof between mite infestation % and productivity I was questioning whether treatment thresholds were the best way of determining if treatment is required. If a colony with 10% infestation can produce 3+ supers of honey, is it "sick"? Should it be requeened? or if it survives the winter should it's high tolerance to mites be perpetuated through breeding. I guess was just questioning the "as needed" part.
> 
> It does seem that most treatment-free beekeepers have few/fewer mites, so perhaps a tolerance to larger scale infestation isn't as much of a factor as other traits.


Problem with IBM is the treshold in which bees start to react to mites. It seems to me, that sometimes they really do get quite a lot of them, before they do anything. Some hives have different approach: they stick to their overwintering size and keep (by being small all summer) mites in control all the time. Some middleway would be best.

In any case, you really need to have mite numbers high enough to do proper judgment. If you let the infestation go up say 10% you never know what the bees would they have done by 11%.

Controlling mite levels is a good idea, but there is too much work and you really don´t know how to select according to your data of mite levels. That is why I don´t believe IBM will lead to results.


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## zhiv9

Juhani Lunden said:


> Controlling mite levels is a good idea, but there is too much work and you really don't know how to select according to your data of mite levels. That is why I don´t believe IBM will lead to results.


I don't disagree, it certainly makes sense that some mite pressure is required to change behaviour, but at this point I am not willing to take the several 50-70% or even greater losses that seem to be required to possibly get to treatment-free bees. From your own experience and Kirk Webster's, these heavy losses seem to be a particular reality in northern climates like ours.

Mites infestation rates definitely seem to increase faster in some colonies than others. In three untreated colonies from last year, 2 had infestation rates of 8 and 10% and another had an infestation rate of 2%. If through selective breeding I could get the seasonal mite build-up to the point where a single oxalic acid clean-up treatment in the fall would do, then I could work towards the next step of no treatment at all.


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## Michael Bush

>If you let the infestation go up say 10% you never know what the bees would they have done by 11%.

This is the problem with studies that just count mites and never let them go until things reach critical mass.


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## peterloringborst

> This is the problem with studies that just count mites and never let them go until things reach critical mass.


I worked at the Dyce Lab at Cornell University for 7 years. We had hundreds of untreated hives. We tracked them as the mite levels built up and watched as the colonies died. I never saw one -- NOT ONE -- untreated hive survive past the second summer. Mites kill bees.


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## beemandan

Michael Bush said:


> >If you let the infestation go up say 10% you never know what the bees would they have done by 11%.
> 
> This is the problem with studies that just count mites and never let them go until things reach critical mass.


Let's not forget this study.
http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/DrummondCAPcolumnDec2012.pdf


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## ArkansasBK

Michael, my mite level is increasing to the point that I think i need to treat. Does powered sugar work? I have one of the bellows type blowers that the spout will fit in the entrance and blow sugar upwards. I have never had to treat before. I have always used Russian queens and the mite count has stayed quite low, but had to put in a mongrel queen and the hive is full of her offspring and the mite count is going up quickly.


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## Juhani Lunden

peterloringborst said:


> I worked at the Dyce Lab at Cornell University for 7 years. We had hundreds of untreated hives. We tracked them as the mite levels built up and watched as the colonies died. I never saw one -- NOT ONE -- untreated hive survive past the second summer.


With only that experience I cannot blame you for being critical about TF beekeeping.

If you saw, over and over again, how bees survive, even bad looking situations get better, angry hives get calm again, mite levels drop etc., you would be a different man and beekeeper.


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## Michael Bush

>my mite level is increasing to the point that I think i need to treat. Does powered sugar work?

I have no experience with powdered sugar other than watching someone do it a few times. They were using a mixture of powdered sugar and garlic powder.

> I have one of the bellows type blowers that the spout will fit in the entrance and blow sugar upwards. I have never had to treat before.

The only two ways I've seen it done are to dump in in the hive and brush it off of the top bars, or run all the bees out with bee go and treat them in a cage. I can't say what method of Powdered Sugar will or won't work or if any of them did or did not work. 

I will, however, point out that any treatment while there is brood in the hive is not likely to appear to have had any results:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm

>I have always used Russian queens and the mite count has stayed quite low, but had to put in a mongrel queen and the hive is full of her offspring and the mite count is going up quickly. 

My point, and Juhani's point, is that you don't know what will happen at some point in the progression. I think the bees get motivated to fight back at some point. At least the smaller bees on smaller comb do, which is another observation some people have made on small cell and natural comb. Dennis Murrel observed a lot of behavioral changes.


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## ArkansasBK

Thanks for that info and link to the study results, Michael. Gives me a much better insight on how to treat.


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## mike bispham

peterloringborst said:


> I worked at the Dyce Lab at Cornell University for 7 years. We had hundreds of untreated hives. We tracked them as the mite levels built up and watched as the colonies died. I never saw one -- NOT ONE -- untreated hive survive past the second summer. Mites kill bees.


When was that Peter? Things have changed - at least in some places. Ferals have fought back, nt beekeepers are succeeding.

It is normal, typical, of a fatal epidemic in nature that most of the population is killed, and the population then rebuilds rapidly from the (resistant) survivors. What you witness occurred in the destructive phase. 

With that said: 'Domesticated' 'agricultural' bees often have little or no varroa resistance, as systematic and continuous treatments have removed the selective pressure that has played out - and is playing out - in ferals. These are effectively held in the early phase of the fatal epidemic.

So whether anyone's bees survive (and thrive) untreated or not is entirely dependent on their genetic state (which is dependent on their origins).

Your statement that all bees inevitably die in the second year is simply untrue today - as many people here on Beesource have testified, myself among them. I don't treat or manipulate my bees, and I simply have no varroa problem. 

Mike (UK)


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## estreya

Peterloringborst - _"If your bees can handle mites, so be it. If they need help, for goodness sake, help them. That's all I'm saying. Sure, they're not pets but they are worth caring for."_ This was a bit of a pretzel for me to read, because it's difficult to access whether or not my bees can "handle" mites unless there are mites in the hives for them to handle. I know full well that my bees are worth caring for, but knowing exactly _if_, _when_, and_ how_ to intervene is possibly the most difficult aspect of that care.

Mike bispham - Very interesting post. My husband and i ordered "hygienic" queens when we purchased our packages, but i now realize my understanding of that word was pretty limited from a genetics perspective. We do have mites in our hives, but we were hoping the colonies as a super-organism would be able to shake them off (figuratively, if not literally). We'll do our second dusting today and see what happens (we did our first dusting last weekend, and will do our third the weekend next). We're talking it one step at a time.


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## squarepeg

estreya said:


> I know full well that my bees are worth caring for, but knowing exactly _if_, _when_, and_ how_ to intervene is possibly the most difficult aspect of that care.


well stated, and very much the dilemma we find ourselves in. there is not a widespread consensus on this and even randy oliver does not offer a precise infestation rate at which intervention is required to prevent certain collapse.

there are just so many variables: location, weather, colony genetics, local genetics, forage availability, equipment used, management practices, ect., ect.

while challenging and sometimes frustrating when starting out, unknowns can also be a source of peaking one's interest and happens to be what i am enjoying the most about this endeavor. in this vein i hope i never get it all figured out.

you're one step at a time approach is wise because if you change too many variables at once it's harder to interpret any changes you may observe. over time you will find out what works for you in your location and with your bees. 

learn to celebrate any failures as they move you up the learning curve faster than anything else.


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## Andrew Dewey

I have one yard where I am participating in BIP/EAS Tier 4 real time testing. I am delighted that the mite numbers there have been consistently below treatment threshold this year. Nosema has been another story. Buildup was very slow this spring due to Nosema ("variety" not identified) and the yard has made all of one shallow of honey. I bought Fumadil or whatever the current iteration is but ended up not using it. The bees recovered - several of the colonies built up enough population to swarm - but slowly - and my summer crop was hurt big time. These hives were treated with MAQS last year in early September.

The dilemma of getting to TF seems to me to be how close to the point of no return are you willing to go before you reach for the bottle? How many colonies are you willing to loose before immediate economic concerns outweigh the potential of future genetic gains? My Dad (a banker) always used to say if you want a quick answer the answer is "No." I guess some of his conservatism rubbed off on me.

The yard declined in colony count from 9 to 5 - just enough were left living to participate in the testing program. This yard is located on a CNG Farm Stand farm - there are tons of dandelions and Golden Rod not to mention the cultivated crops.


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## Lburou

mike bispham said:


> ....... and I simply have no varroa problem.
> 
> Mike (UK)


Mike, As I read your post above, It gets me wondering when the mites moved into your area, which variety of mite you have there, how long your bees have been dealing with them as well as which strains of bees work well there....Can you fill me in on those details? Just interested in the timeline you can report and how long it took in your neck of the woods for the bees to get along so well.


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## mike bispham

Lburou said:


> Mike, As I read your post above, It gets me wondering when the mites moved into your area, which variety of mite you have there, how long your bees have been dealing with them as well as which strains of bees work well there....Can you fill me in on those details? Just interested in the timeline you can report and how long it took in your neck of the woods for the bees to get along so well.


Lee,

Mites arrived in the UK, I reckon, about 20-15 years ago. Varieties, don't know. I've been collecting swarms and doing cut outs in a determined manner for 4 years now. They survive alone or die. In the first two years losses were high, but a lot of that was unnecessary I expected too much of small colonies in their first year, and underestimated the damage robbing was doing. In the second two years I've been raising new colonies from my best. 

I live in an area where quite a lot of beekeeping goes on, but there are also good stretches of bee country with few people and fewer beekeepers. So, lots of escapees, into relative isolation. I think that's probably a good recipe for the development of natural resistance. I know of a number of long term feral colonies, and of several well populated patches. I only use the mongrels that turn up. Some are significantly smaller than others, and some small and dark. I don't do any mite counting. Some swarms don't build up, some arrive apparently queenless. But those that get going, tend to keep going. I currently have about 65 hives.

Mike (UK)


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## squarepeg

sounds like you just might have something there mike. if ferals are surviving in your area than there's every reason to believe your kept colonies can as well, especially if you manage them as close as is reasonable to the feral state. do most of your overwintered colonies swarm in the spring?


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## Lburou

Thanks for the info Mike. 

My area is similar in remoteness to yours; I live near undeveloped, open lands on the one side and developed and agricultural on the other. First swarm last year arrived with a yellow dot on the queen, so I'm not sure how many feral bees are here and if there are feral bees, how I'd recognize them (except when I can't see through my veil I'd suspect they are AFB). 

My own view of feral bees and their reported success would be that natural, and repeated swarming is their best way to accommodate mites. That way, mite populations that kill a colony are one or two nests behind the leading edge of current swarms. Keeping bees without unlimited swarming is where the mites get ahead of us.


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## Andrew Dewey

Mike - do your colonies produce surplus honey? How does your production compare to the closest conventional bees? Lastly (for now at any rate:lookout do you consider economics in your 65 colonies?


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## mike bispham

squarepeg said:


> sounds like you just might have something there mike. if ferals are surviving in your area than there's every reason to believe your kept colonies can as well, especially if you manage them as close as is reasonable to the feral state. do most of your overwintered colonies swarm in the spring?


SP, 

No. I give them unlimited broodnests and comb (starter strip) to work on, and they seem to be happy as long as they can expand. I don't watch over them constantly, so I wouldn't see swarming, but I visit each regularly, just hefting and looking under the cover board to see if they have room, and I take notes. I reckon I usually can tell when they've swarmed. There's a young orchard right in from of my main run of hives, and I've found just one cast in the branches this year. I've had two fly-ins to bait boxes. They seem to me to be good bees, though not all are as gentle as I'd like.


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## mike bispham

Lburou said:


> Thanks for the info Mike.
> 
> My own view of feral bees and their reported success would be that natural, and repeated swarming is their best way to accommodate mites. That way, mite populations that kill a colony are one or two nests behind the leading edge of current swarms. Keeping bees without unlimited swarming is where the mites get ahead of us.


Not here Lee. There are several mite-management mechanisms, and in my view rapid swarming is an early stage emergency measure. Building all new comb without anywhere to raise brood is a slow and expensive operation. My queens have shut right down now - natural brood breaks - and I think that might be an important measure. I'm currently wondering what beekeepers have been doing over the years to screw that one up.

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

Andrew Dewey said:


> Mike - do your colonies produce surplus honey? How does your production compare to the closest conventional bees? Lastly (for now at any rate:lookout do you consider economics in your 65 colonies?


Andrew,

It depends what you call 'surplus'! Different people have different ideas about that, and mine aren't settled. But yes, most of those that built well in the spring had (before I started taking it off) at least a couple of shallows, and some had a deep and three shallows. It was a fairly good year here weather wise, and my hives are not moved around, but are in fairly good rough forage spots, or near a long-lasting source like field beans. 

However, factor in: I tickled them all up with candy then thin syrup early in the year. Some I spread the brood nest. Both these things seemed to make a positive difference to build and crop.

On the other hand, all have built all their own comb this year. No foundation, just starter strips. Most started the year on 6 or 12 drawn combs. Those with more room did better, as you'd expect.

So the answer, do they make honey, is yes, but I'm not yet in a position to really make lots - ample comb ready to be filled. 

As to economics; yes. One aspect is that I'm trying to develop comb honey more than runny/set honey. It sells at a premium, So that's an aspect that will affect honey yield numbers, since for a lot of the time they'll be making comb.

I'll use sugar where I think I can do it without causing undue harm. Thin syrup helps a lot to encourage comb building, and I reckon a reasonable proportion is simply converted to wax without impacting on health. I want all my bees in one box overwinter, and that's often near empty when I take off honey, so something has to be fed back. It makes economic sense to use sugar - as long as there isn't a health cost. This is stuff I'm weighing up and experimenting with constantly.

Mike (UK)


----------



## Solomon Parker

zhiv9 said:


> For the successful treatment-free beekeepers - Do you see a lot of mites in your colonies?


I see some mites, typically a few in drone brood broken open during manipulations. There was only one hive in which I saw "a lot" of mites. It eventually cleared them up though I fully expected it to die.




zhiv9 said:


> Do you think your bees have a high tolerance to varroa and can coexist with high infestation rates or do you think they have adapted to keep mite populations low?


My hypothesis is that the bees have adapted to keep mite populations low through a number of factors, including confining mites to drone brood (related to cell size), hygienic behavior, grooming behavior, mite biting, shorter capping times, or any number of other known and unknown factors. While I have seen hives survive with high mite loads, they do not typically perform well. Too much predation of the workers leads to poor performance due to a number of associated factors.


----------



## sqkcrk

If you see mites on adult bees, most likely that colony is a goner.

Have you been seeing bees w/ deformed wings?


----------



## estreya

Sqkcrk, i don't think your question was directed at me, but i'll insert an answer anyway!  Yes, i've seen a few bees with deformed wings in one of my two hives (pictures here http://wabeekeepersforum.proboards.com/thread/1796/photographs-inspection-varroa-edition-photo). I should probably keep my pie hole shut while you experienced beekeepers hash this out, but from the perspective of a neophyte, it seems to make sense to err on the side of treatment free at this point. Whether or not my resolve will crumble if i experience one hive failure after another, year after year after year, i can not say. But i'm trying to balance long-term implications with seemingly immediate needs ...


----------



## sqkcrk

You are seeing deformed wings and think that means you should stay treatment free? Or do I misunderstand you.


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## estreya

No no. I've been agonizing over whether or not i should treat, and i also understand that many beekeepers see deformed wing virus as a sign that they should treat immediately. However, since my personal goal is to be treatment free, i've decided not to treat at this time, and will remain guardedly optimistic that the bees will work it out.


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## peterloringborst

> it seems to make sense to err on the side of treatment free at this point.


The bees will probably die, and you can't be a beekeeper with dead bees. IPM says: don't treat unless necessary. Take measures as needed.


----------



## estreya

Peterloringborst, i make no value judgements about people who treat versus those who do not. I'm also well aware of the extent to which vaccines have "changed the world" and can't help but to feel a bit attacked by your assumption to the contrary. I value your posts, Peterloringborst, and find the information you provide to be very interesting. Let's try to maintain a positive tone here though so we don't shut down the discussion with a lot of personal sniping.


----------



## sqkcrk

estreya said:


> No no. I've been agonizing over whether or not i should treat, and i also understand that many beekeepers see deformed wing virus as a sign that they should treat immediately.


Depending on the time of year, it could indicate that treating would be a waste of time and resources. But, not necessarily so.

Do you do any sort of mite management? Such as drone brood mite trapping?

As long as what others do does not negatively effect me or others, I don't really care what anyone does who keeps bees. I guess I don't feel about insects like I do about "higher" forms of life. Maybe I should, but I don't. That being said, don't you have an obligation to do whatever you can, w/in your beekeeping philosophy, to maintain your livestock's life? There are things one can do to lessen mite loads w/in a hive or to try to maintain a somewhat static level.

Notice I have not advocated or discussed treating.


----------



## sqkcrk

peterloringborst said:


> your bees are already sick and dying.


"Dead hive walking." To quote Larry Connor.


----------



## sqkcrk

estreya said:


> Peterloringborst, Let's try to maintain a positive tone here though so we don't shut down the discussion with a lot of personal sniping.


That's just Peter. He wasn't really being snide or looking down his nose at you. Peter is an acquired taste, right Peter?  Listen to the message behind the comments.


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## squarepeg

estreya,

for what it's worth, i have seen a few bees with dwv in the past but the colonies got over it and went on to do well. are you seeing a lot of those? are your bees dragging out dead pupae? how's the brood in the nest looking? the alcohol wash is the gold standard for determining infestation rate and that would be valuable information for making your immediate and future treatment or not decisions. have you had a chance to look at randy oliver's stuff?


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## mathesonequip

well, I was with mark on sataurday and dr. connor and 3 other experienced beekeepers when dr. connor said this... it was a good couple of hours in the hives. the host's bees had a high mite count. later we talked, just the host and I. I said you have a problem you really should treat, he said I don't like chemicals much, I said "me too, how do you feel about dead bees?" . he is going to treat I think... it was the host's bees and a commercial migratoy operator's, we were using them for inspection protocals and fresh samples for lab work. we had 13 students and 5 instuctors, a couple of these the best in Ontario, for a couple of long days last weekend. the school was better than good. the school was for training instructors.. listen to what mark has to say.


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## peterloringborst

> I value your posts, Peterloringborst, and find the information you provide to be very interesting. Let's try to maintain a positive tone here


Thanks for your kind words. I apologize for the ornery comment, and I have removed it. Bad day here, but getting better.


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## estreya

Hello, Squarepeg! We're not seeing a lot of deformed wing virus, no. We saw one dwv drone with the naked eye a few weeks back (before they tossed most of the drones out!), and someone with keen eyes spotted a worker bee with deformed wing virus in a picture i posted on a regional board i participate in (linked above). The bees are not dragging out dead pupae, and the brood looks good in both hives.

All in all, it would be surprising to me if the hives were doomed because they seem quite healthy and vigorous. When i consider that there must be over 20,000 bees in each hive at this point, and the mite drop after dusting all combs is less than 200/hive, it doesn't SEEM as if my counts are all that high from a percentage standpoint. On the other hand, i realize that the mite fall from dusting isn't the best way to accurately determine the infestation rate ...

And so, i ruminate. And i dust. And i pour over my most recent inspection photographs to see if i can spot any other bees with deformed wing virus or mites (none!). And of course i read and read and read and try to carefully weigh the oft times contradictory information out there. And i'm still in the process of reviewing Randy Oliver's site. Thank you for posting it! And thank you for your response. I appreciate it ...

Sqkcrk, thanks for your posts as well. They say coffee is an acquired taste, and at this point, it would be hard to get through the day without it!  I'm very comfortable entertaining all points of view, and haven't hardened my position one way or the other. So not a worry in the world ...

Cheers!


----------



## estreya

Peterloringborst, not a worry in the world. I appreciate your candor, and your personal attention. As i've said, i'm really betwixed and between about all this, and more information is always better.

Meanwhile, i'm very glad your day is improving! May it continue along that same trajectory.


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## estreya

Mathesonequip, what a wonderful experience! We have no hands-on mentors, my husband and i, so i'm especially grateful to everyone who shares their knowledge here. And i'm listening. Believe me! That's why i'm so confused!


----------



## D Semple

mike bispham said:


> *My queens have shut right down now - natural brood breaks - and I think that might be an important measure. * I'm currently wondering what beekeepers have been doing over the years to screw that one up.
> 
> Mike (UK)


I think you are correct. 



mike bispham said:


> My queens have shut right down now - natural brood breaks - and I think that might be an important measure. *I'm currently wondering what beekeepers have been doing over the years to screw that one up. *
> 
> Mike (UK)


It's called production. Population is where it's at when it comes to maximizing honey production or pollination.


Don


----------



## squarepeg

estreya,

sounds encouraging. one of the common denominators among successful treatment free keepers is avoiding artificial feeds. it is usually easy enough to do just by leaving the bees enough of their own honey. the thinking is that there are nutrients in honey that help boost the bee's natural immunity to infection by the viruses that are vectored by the mites, and nutrients in the honey that boost the bee's natural ability to detoxify poisons. like with all things beekeeping opinions are all over the place on that one too, but just some food for thought, no pun intended.


----------



## AR Beekeeper

Estreya, First the bad news, if you dropped 200 with a sugar dusting there are 4 to 5000 mites in the colony, at least that is what my experience has been. Deformed wing virus damages the wings of the bee when the virus is reproducing in the brain of the bee. DWV attacks other areas of the bee and can cause the bees death, but will not show the deformed wings. If my estimate of the varroa numbers are correct you are on the edge of colony damage, at least you would be if your conditions are the same a mine.

The good news is that some colonies that are not stress by other causes, are well supplies with honey and pollen, and have VSH will resist DWV and not die out. They will show deformed wings from time to time and often are not as productive as other colonies, but they survive. If they survive and are allow to requeen themselves, after 3 years they are seldom bothered by severe cases of DWV.


----------



## sqkcrk

D Semple said:


> Figured that out did you Mike, wasn't it just last year how you went on and on lecturing the rest of us about the evils of brood breaks. Don


Aw, come on, Don. Leave it alone, will ya. It isn't worth the aggravation.


----------



## sqkcrk

AR Beekeeper said:


> Estreya, First the bad news, if you dropped 200 with a sugar dusting there are 4 to 5000 mites in the colony, at least that is what my experience has been.


You may be right, but how did you figure that out? I have been asking about that for 20 years and most knowledgeable people who I would think should have some idea almost always say, "I don't know." Maybe they just didn't want anyone going around saying that so and so says that X mites per sample means X mites in the hive.

So I am just curious, not challenging your statement.


----------



## D Semple

Responding to the original post.

I have mites. 

Early July natural fall mite counts generally run 10 - 20 in a 24 hour period. Sugar shake samples generally show a 1 - 5% infestation.

Then our late July/August dearth rolls around, coupled generally with a few weeks of 100 + degree temperatures here, and the ferals I like shut down brood production. And, during this period I find the high temperatures take a very heavy toll on the mites as seen by natural fall mite counts on really hot days of 50 - 80 mites a day. 

But, come late September in hives that have taken a brood break, mite natural fall counts drop to 0 - 5 mites in a 24 hour period and sugar shake samples rarely measure over a 3% mite infestation, with most in the .5 to 2% range.

This year I'm worried about the mites though because we still have some flow and have had enough moisture and cool weather that the queens are not shutting down brood production. But we have honey out the kazoo. 

Don


----------



## D Semple

sqkcrk said:


> Aw, come on, Don. Leave it alone, will ya. It isn't worth the aggravation.


Sorry Mark, you're right. Don


----------



## sqkcrk

Some times. Remind me of this the next time I go off on Acebird, okay?


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## AR Beekeeper

Sqkcrk, when I first started sugar dusting I also did treatments with Mite Away Formic Acid Pads. I had sticky boards on the colonies and I would count the mites that fell. When I did the sugar dusting and dropped around 200 mites the next day I started the formic treatment, and over the course of the treatment 4 to 5000 mites would drop. There would be more mites than that I am sure, because we never kill them all, but I was sure there were that many. Those are the numbers for my area at which damage begins, so I did not count mites in colonies that dropped more than 200 with a sugar dust, I may do that sometime, but counting mites is a pain.

Speaking of pain, how did your surgery work out?


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## mathesonequip

if you killed 200 with a sugar dust and then got 4 or 5000 with formic acid, then I would conclude that the sugar dust was a waste of time.


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## AR Beekeeper

Sugar dusting is good for reducing the growth rate of the varroa population, and if done when there is little or no eggs/brood over 7 days old, you can remove many mites. It is good for 5 frame nucs that are not large enough for the stronger treatments. My bees usually are dusted early in the year when winter dead-outs are remade, or when swarms are caught, or when nucs are made. After that I dust to see what the mite increase is. My bees (the field colonies) usually are treated with a chemical treatment once every four years. I treat on a colony by colony basis, and only if I think the colony will not survive. I don't treat a yard because 2 or 3 are carrying heavy mite loads.

I have brought home 4 queens from my bond yard and used those for breeders. They have had nothing done to them since 2006 when the colonies were made. They have survived and requeened themselves with no help from me. There are 3 other colonies still in the yard, but they are not gentile enough to bring home. It will be interesting to see how the nucs and field colonies I have made this summer with their daughters survive.


----------



## estreya

AR Beekeeper, very informative, and what chilling numbers! Mathesonequip used the words "waste of time" and those very words occurred to me this past week as i wondered how many mites were left behind for every one mite that dropped during the dusting. I would add that the way we've been dusting is really disruptive to the integrity of the hives - we temporarily put the dusted combs into a nuc where they "percolate" for a few minutes before we put them back into the hive. Rinse, lather, repeat until the last comb is done. It's not lost on me that this level of disruption is very hard on a hive, a real "no-no" under ordinary circumstances (and you're supposed to do it for three to six weeks in a row!). It would be so much easier to put a few drops of something-or-other into the hive and presto-bingo, a few days later, mite problem solved. Given what i've been reading though, that path is also "dark and full of terrors" to quote a line from a popular HBO series. In fact, someone not far from me geographically just lost a hive after a chemical mite treatment (he wrote about it in the main bee forum i think). Wrenching.

Anyway, you're all so gracious to share your insights with all of us here. Many thanks ...


----------



## sqkcrk

AR Beekeeper said:


> Speaking of pain, how did your surgery work out?


Eyes are better than before, but not as good as new. Oh well. I can live w/ it. Thanks for asking.


----------



## AR Beekeeper

estreya, break the boxes apart and sift one cup of PS over the top bars of each box and cross brush the sugar between the frames. There is no need to remove the frames. From taking off the outer cover of a double deep to finish is less than 5 minutes, and I am slow. Check out Randy Oliver's web site. 

When there is sealed brood, 70 to 80% of the mites are in the brood and you will not do much good. Dusting used alone will not keep mites from building large populations, unless you use the Dutch method of separating the adults from the brood over 7 days old. Dusting and drone brood removal early in the year, and dusting when the bees are undergoing brood breaks in the dearth periods are the productive times for biotechnical methods of varroa control.


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## estreya

AR Beekeeper, we have top bar hives (i know, i know, some people hate them - but the observation windows are the bees knees!).


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## estreya

Sqkcrk - "drone brood mite trapping" ... GENIUS! I wish i knew about this technique earlier in the season, but we live and learn.


----------



## mike bispham

estreya said:


> We're not seeing a lot of deformed wing virus, no. We saw one dwv drone with the naked eye a few weeks back (before they tossed most of the drones out!), and someone with keen eyes spotted a worker bee with deformed wing virus in a picture i posted on a regional board i participate in (linked above). The bees are not dragging out dead pupae, and the brood looks good in both hives.
> 
> All in all, it would be surprising to me if the hives were doomed because they seem quite healthy and vigorous.


Is this your only hive? Your best hive? I'd say: make some nucs and multiply and then multiply some more. Try to find some likely feral patches for mating. That way you can experiment with not treating and if you lose some it won't matter.

I see a bit of dwv from time to time. I've stopped taking any notice. It never seems to amount to anything. If I looked closer it might correlate with poor performance. I just look for best and worst performance and act accordingly when making new hives.

A proactive breeding approach gives you a way of tackling mites that doesn't require you act like a nurse the whole time.

Mike (UK)


----------



## mike bispham

D Semple said:


> I think you are correct.
> 
> 
> 
> It's called production. Population is where it's at when it comes to maximizing honey production or pollination.
> 
> 
> Don


Bit confusing that one Don?


----------



## mike bispham

sqkcrk said:


> Don: "Figured that out did you Mike, wasn't it just last year how you went on and on lecturing the rest of us about the evils of brood breaks. Don"
> Aw, come on, Don. Leave it alone, will ya. It isn't worth the aggravation.


Don, 

From the husbandryman's perspective:

Natural brood breaks: Good. 

Unnatural brood breaks: Bad.

Unnatural brood breaks are a form of treatment. All treatments tend to lead to the need for more treatments.

This isn't hard.

Mike (UK)


----------



## mike bispham

estreya said:


> Sqkcrk - "drone brood mite trapping" ... GENIUS! I wish i knew about this technique earlier in the season, but we live and learn.


Estraya,

That's a form of 'treatment' that will tend to perpetuate vulnerablity to varroa in your local population. Are you sure you want to be doing that? Just asking?

Mike (UK)


----------



## zhiv9

mike bispham said:


> Unnatural brood breaks: Bad.
> 
> Unnatural brood breaks are a form of treatment. All treatments tend to lead to the need for more treatments.


Out of curiosity, do you make increase through splits? A split is an unnatural brood break. A swarm is the only "natural" method of increase.


----------



## sqkcrk

mike bispham said:


> Estraya,
> 
> That's a form of 'treatment' that will tend to perpetuate vulnerablity to varroa in your local population. Are you sure you want to be doing that? Just asking?
> 
> Mike (UK)


Mike, do you keep bees in boxes? Do you use frames? Do you manipulate those frames and boxes? By your questions and statements it seems as though you consider any manipulation or management technique as a treatment and are so radically antitreatment that it makes me wonder how you can compromise your TF principles by keeping bees in unnatural man made cavities
called beehives. 

Do you ever requeen? If so, isn't that a treatment? Some people will confine a queen or remove her for a period of time to simulate a brood break. By your seeming definition that would be a treatment and not allowed.

I guess you are anti-husbandry, I see by your tag line. How far do you go w/ that philosophy?


----------



## Barry

mike bispham said:


> That's a form of 'treatment' that will tend to perpetuate vulnerablity to varroa in your local population.


Keeping bees in boxes is a form of 'treatment' that will tend to perpetuate vulnerability to beekeepers in your local population.


----------



## D Semple

mike bispham said:


> My queens have shut right down now - natural brood breaks - and I think that might be an important measure.
> Mike (UK)


Why are your bees on a "natural brood break"?


Don


----------



## estreya

Good morning, Mike, and thank you for your response ...

We have two top bar hives, both of which were started from purchased packages this past Spring. If we're fortunate enough to have both come through the winter, we were planning to try splits next year (my understanding is that it's too late to do it this year in my location). If i could rewind the clock, there are few things i would have done differently, and making a split or two is one of those things.

For the near term, i'm still quite invested (emotionally speaking) in doing right by these beautiful bees. It's just not clear to me at the moment what exactly that means.

Thanks again, and good luck with your hives!


----------



## zhiv9

estreya said:


> .
> For the near term, i'm still quite invested (emotionally speaking) in doing right by these beautiful bees. It's just not clear to me at the moment what exactly that means.


In the end you can just do what feels right to you. I found this by Randy Oliver very helpful:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-rules-for-successful-beekeeping/

Particularly this: "Everyone wants to be a “treatment free” beekeeper—but you are not really “keeping” bees if they die each year!"

I hate treating, it is my least favourite part of beekeeping. I may have a stab at treatment free at some point when I can prepare for it properly(isolated yard with lots of colonies). To me it's the sort of thing you might do with 10 colonies or even better 20 or more. Not really with two.


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## mathesonequip

I like dead bees even less than chemicals. so I treat if I must. as for emotional attachment they are bugs we keep in boxes. really great bugs but bugs.


----------



## mike bispham

sqkcrk said:


> Mike, do you keep bees in boxes? Do you use frames?


Mark,

If you don't know the answers to those questions by now, nothing I can say is going to help.

Mike (UK)


----------



## mike bispham

Barry said:


> Keeping bees in boxes is a form of 'treatment' that will tend to perpetuate vulnerability to beekeepers in your local population.


Only if you moddlycoddle them.

Mike (UK)


----------



## mike bispham

D Semple said:


> Why are your bees on a "natural brood break"?
> 
> 
> Don


Not all are, but those I most want eggs from (the oldestest/best colonies) seem to be. I think its because they are influenced by a recent feral adaptation against varroa.

I'm sure you already knew that Don. Is it International Rhetorical Question Day or something?

Mike (UK)


----------



## mike bispham

zhiv9 said:


> I may have a stab at treatment free at some point when I can prepare for it properly(isolated yard with lots of colonies). To me it's the sort of thing you might do with 10 colonies or even better 20 or more. Not really with two.


I agree, and anyone considering going treatment free should think and plan ahead well first.

Mike (UK)


----------



## sqkcrk

mike bispham said:


> I think its because they are influenced by a recent feral adaptation against varroa.


Huh? What does that mean and how does it effect your colonies?


----------



## mike bispham

sqkcrk said:


> Huh? What does that mean and how does it effect your colonies?


Mark,

There have been a number of reports from tf beekeepeers (who usually have feral bees) that their colonies shut down very hard in mid to late summmer, thus creating a natural brood break. This, it has been suggested, might be an adaptative response to varroa.

I think I recall reading of scientific evidence along these lines as well, but I don't remember that well, and can't direct you to it - so treat the notion as anecdotal until something better comes up.

How does it affect the colonies? What can I tell you that isn't obvious from the above?

Mike (UK)


----------



## D Semple

mike bispham said:


> My queens have shut right down now - natural brood breaks - and I think that might be an important measure. I'm currently wondering what beekeepers have been doing over the years to screw that one up.
> 
> Mike (UK)





mike bispham said:


> Not all are, but those I most want eggs from (the oldestest/best colonies) seem to be. * I think its because they are influenced by a recent feral adaptation against varroa.*
> I'm sure you already knew that Don. Is it International Rhetorical Question Day or something?
> 
> Mike (UK)


I think what your seeing in your bees is just the normal shut down thrifty colonies/queens make in response to a dearth. Probably has been going on for a million years. Just so happens these brood breaks also slow down the varroa population growth. And, it's just a guess but I also think the lack of a flow with the bees not having much to do also gives the colony more time to groom. Regardless everybody agrees brood breaks slow down the varroa population growth which is a good thing and a tool I believe is very important if you are trying to be a treatment free beekeeper. 

Anyhow, what I'm really getting at is what if you want to be treatment free but you find yourself in an area that doesn't experience long dearth periods with their subsequent (important) brood breaks? Or, what if you find yourself in a strange weather pattern (like this year here) and you are experiencing no summer dearth? Or, what if say you are in an area where the climate just favors the Italian type bees that don't shut down in response to dearths? Or, what if your normal practice is to harvest in July and August and immediately start feeding to get your bees ready for winter and they don't shut down their brood rearing (which is a very normal and popular management technique)? Or, what if you only have 2 or 3 hives and are in an area with a lot of other managed hives?

Where you and I don't see eye to eye is that I see your advice of only relying on breeding and selection as taking years to accomplish with heavy losses and or very slow apiary growth, while not allowing the average hobby or sideline beekeeper to succeed.

Respectfully. ...Don


----------



## Juhani Lunden

mike bispham said:


> My queens have shut right down now - natural brood breaks - and I think that might be an important measure.


Can you send a picture of what a typical broodnest looks like right now?


----------



## mike bispham

D Semple said:


> I think what your seeing in your bees is just the normal shut down thrifty colonies/queens make in response to a dearth. Probably has been going on for a million years. Just so happens these brood breaks also slow down the varroa population growth.


I agree with all that. Not all of mine have shut down - but perhaps tellingly those that I value most (and would like eggs from now) have.

In general terms its worth noting that those who shut down more sharply and thoroughly are at an advantage. Therefore for ferals and those of us wanting to encourage natural solutions to varroa, this disposition is to be encouraged. 



D Semple said:


> Where you and I don't see eye to eye is that I see your advice of only relying on breeding and selection as taking years to accomplish with heavy losses and or very slow apiary growth, while not allowing the average hobby or sideline beekeeper to succeed.


The time it takes is of course dependent on the genetics you are able to get hold of. My story is: I've worked hard at getting in 'survivors' and not artificially supporting them in any way, and I seem to have achieved a very promising apiary of 60-7- hives and rising in 4 years - from scratch. It might all go wrong tomorrow Don, but it sure looks promising the last couple of years. That's my experience against your guesswork?

Respectfully, 

Mike (UK)


----------



## mike bispham

Juhani Lunden said:


> Can you send a picture of what a typical broodnest looks like right now?


Julian,

No, I still don't jave a camera, and there are no 'typical' broodnests. I haven't opened all that many in the last few weeks - just those I've wanted eggs from, and those that have built upward and I've come across in the course of taking honey off. One thing I have noticed is either almost nothing brood wise or lots of sealed brood and eggs, but no larvae - no range of eggs-larvae of all sizes-sealed brood.

Much of this might be perfectly normal. I'm simply observing that so far in those I think of as my best I'm struggling to get eggs. I like observing things, and trying to make sense of them, and I'm interested in the idea that brood breaks might be an inherited means of varroa control. 

I'm also interested in local adaptation to local forage, and appropriate shrinking ahead of winter. I'm also trying to figure out when the best time to feed is, if at all, so as not to meddle with natural behaviours - if that's possible.

Mike (UK)


----------



## Juhani Lunden

mike bispham said:


> Julian,
> 
> No, I still don't jave a camera, (UK)


Unbelievable


----------



## D Semple

mike bispham said:


> Julian,
> 
> I'm interested in the idea that brood breaks might be an inherited means of varroa control.
> 
> I'm also interested in local adaptation to local forage, and appropriate shrinking ahead of winter.
> Mike (UK)


:thumbsup:



mike bispham said:


> Julian,
> 
> I'm also trying to figure out when the best time to feed is, if at all, so as not to meddle with natural behaviors - if that's possible.
> 
> Mike (UK)


If you figure that one out let the rest of us know how.




mike bispham said:


> My story is: I've worked hard at getting in 'survivors' and not artificially supporting them in any way, and I seem to have achieved a very promising apiary of 60-7- hives and rising in 4 years - from scratch. It might all go wrong tomorrow Don, but it sure looks promising the last couple of years. That's my experience against your guesswork?
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Mike (UK)


You've done well Mike, you've got a good plan and have also executed it well. 

As to guesswork, hey this is the internet all we can ever do is make our best guestimate. 


Don


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## Oldtimer

mike bispham said:


> I still don't jave a camera


Do you have a phone?


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## mike bispham

Juhani Lunden said:


> Unbelievable


If I had a camera I'd take a photo of me standing there without a camera!









I borrowed my daughter's camera a few weeks ago to take pictures of my hives. Here's one for you. I didn't open any up to take pictures of their insides. I have more important things to do just now Juhani, and more important things to spend money on. 

Mike (UK)


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## Dieseltrac

Cool vid. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ag...9lkSvX02GgjkX8YMiU6zmpxAsDLo2iNfN6KTNdkluPSkg
7


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