# Oav with insect fogger



## texanbelchers

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?334020-OAV-with-a-fogger


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## GregH

Texanbleachers: If I read the link you posted correctly the op ask about Alcohol and oxalic acid fogging but every follow up post was about glycerin and oxalic acid. They never answered the question. But I may have missed it.


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## texanbelchers

As I understand it, it doesn't matter what medium you use. The heat of a fogger will destroy the OA. The exact outcome may vary, but it probably won't have the desired result of dead mites with living bees and keeper.


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## Wetsu151

That's it, I am going to try it and see what kind of results I get as far as mite drop and bee death , if any
Right now I use OA in a wand with great results, and I have an old fogger, so I'm half way there.
now I just have to acquire some good moonshine


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## crofter

There are heat foggers as texanb is assuming and there are fine spray misters without heat that some other people refer to as "foggers". The two types will have entirely different implications for different products, depending on their flamability and reaction to heat as far as sublimation and/or possible decomposition of the product. I dont see enough details to suggest whether it would seem reasonably do-able or very likely not. 

The devil is in the details!


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## snl

texanbelchers said:


> The heat of a fogger will destroy the OA.


You are correct. It will form formic and CO2. Not enough formic to help, not enough CO2 to hurt bees.......


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## pa-farmhand

i have been trying the method and it kills mites. i didnt do any alcohol washes yet to check how many mites are left after the oa fogging but there are hundreds of dead mites on my viewing boards after the oa fogging


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## DerTiefster

to the O.P., Wetsu151: Every time I have asked about either glycerine or ethyl alcohol fogging with OA, even when I mention that by "fogger" I mean an aerosol generator NOT a high-temperature evaporator, I get the "heat destroys OA" response. I've pretty much decided that ... well, I shouldn't say that. But it seems true sometimes.

Anyway, I don't know the answer, either. But glycerine might be better tolerated than alcohol droplets when you consider that the insects' trachea are one of the many places the fog will go. Again, I don't know. But it would be nice if more folks read the posts to which they reply. [I, too, share the guilt of reading what I expect to read, rather than what is in print before me.]


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## shinbone

pa-farmhand said:


> i have been trying the method and it kills mites. i didnt do any alcohol washes yet to check how many mites are left after the oa fogging but there are hundreds of dead mites on my viewing boards after the oa fogging


Would you be willing to provide everyone with more information on what you do? Details of the equipment and how you mix and apply the OA mixture would be great.


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## aunt betty

Mix the OA and alcohol at this rate:
100 ml alcohol and 25 grams of OA
(you have to heat it to get the crystals to dissolve..it's a supersaturated solution) 

They say the fogger converts OA to Formic Acid but so far I've not seen evidence from a gas chromatography machine. 
Have been doing weekly shots. Three weeks in and not seeing the crawling bees on the ground like I was seeing before.
Bees look real bright and healthy. It's not hurting them that's for sure. 

Have treated nucs and full-size colonies. No queen losses at all and formic is hard on queens they say so I'm not so sure about the formic acid conversion. 

When I tried talking about this topic about a month ago it was not well received. 
Prepare for that. They are coming.


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## shinbone

AB - Thanks for the info. What are you relying on to know it is killing mites?

A few years ago, fogging with mineral oil with various additives was all the rage, with proponents swearing up and down it was killing mites. Turns out, it wasn't doing much if anything to kill mites, and it was just another rabbit trail people were duped into going down. That is why the current skepticism when someone starts talking about fogging, and a heightened sense of convincing is now needed by any who claims success with fogging.


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## aunt betty

Two summers ago I did mite-counts. Every single hive was at or above treatment level. 
When I realized that I could pretty well assume every hive needs treatment I started thinking about getting it done quickly and out of the way. Am not that good of a beekeeper. 

It's a lot of fun raising up colonies but once they're honey-maker beasts with second season queens it's a lot of work and kind of stressful. (tall hives with 6 or 8 boxes)
Found that I prefer working with the babies. It's a blast going thru nucs. 
Am not sure but I believe there are a couple other beeks in here that have found out it's a ton of fun to raise bees from your own bees.


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## pa-farmhand

shinbone said:


> Would you be willing to provide everyone with more information on what you do? Details of the equipment and how you mix and apply the OA mixture would be great.


I use a burgess 1443 fogger but any fogger that has a heating coil should work. The fogger uses a propane canister that you screw into the back i bought the fogger on ebay i think it cost $56 and free shipping. The propane canister i bought at wallmart I think i paid $7 for 2 propane canisters . I mix the oxalic acid with ethyl alcohol. Everclear would work as well but pennslvania has banned the sale of everclear so i bought 95% food grade ethyl alcohol on ebay. I mix 100 ml of ethyl alcohol with 30 grams of oxalic acid i mix it in a 1/2 pint jar. I put the alcohol and oxalic acid into the jar and put the lid on it then i hold it under hot tap water and shake till the mixture is totaly clear then i strain it through a coffee filter and i leave it in the half pint jar . It will stay good . when i want to fog i take the lid off and screw it onto the fogger. The threads from a 1/2 pint jar fit perfectly into the fogger threads . I pump the fogger till only oxalic fumes are coming then i fog my hives i use 2 trigger pulls per nuc and 4 per strong colony. Once i am done i take off the jar put the lid on and set it on the shelf i grab the tank that came with the fogger which is full of mineral oil and run mineral oil through it till only mineral oil fog is coming out the nozzle then i shut it off and set it on the shelf. I run the mineral oil through the fogger to keep it lubricated and hopefully flush out all the acid to keep my fogger from rusting out.I have screen bottom boards on some of my hives and after they were treated over the next few days i counted 300 plus dead mites on my viewing boards .. I hope this loooong post is helpful. Sorry about the spelling. If you have any more questions dont be afraid to ask


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## pa-farmhand

shinbone said:


> Would you be willing to provide everyone with more information on what you do? Details of the equipment and how you mix and apply the OA mixture would be great.


Also i forgot to add . The youtube channels that have videos about this method are called .......Justbeecause.....and .....Little bits honey bees....... the guy who has justbeecause channel his name is Tarl Booth its a great channel lots of good videos he has videos where he makes the mixture of oxalic and ethyl and explains how he does it. The other channel Little bits Honey Bees his name is Joe May he has a lot of good videos as well . He has a very interesting video where he shows that the alcohol fumes coming out of the fogger will not burn. They both have videos showing how they apply the fog


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## Lburou

Thanks pa-farmhand. 

The justbeecuz mixing demonstration is here. The little bits bees demo is here.

We have ordered one of these vaporizors. As long as the temperatures are in the sweet spot for oxalic vaporization (about 315-370 degrees F) it should work. Friends and I will do mite counts and drop counts as we test it. Anyone tried one of these?

ADDED Link to complete instructions & recipe. Read *all* of  this Ebay ad for the recipe and operating instructions for this unit *in English*.


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## shinbone

pa-farmhand said:


> I use a burgess 1443 fogger . . . . and after they were treated over the next few days i counted 300 plus dead mites on my viewing boards


Thanks for the detailed info. Especially the mite drop numbers.

It will be interesting to hear what others have to say as more people try this method.



.


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## aunt betty

How is this any different than what we're doing with the yard-foggers?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Varomor-dev...b26d51&pid=100011&rk=2&rkt=12&sd=232308043726


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## aunt betty

Have played with my Varrox doing similar testing with wood bleach.
Observed pretty much the same type of things he's observing only he's measuring temps.

If these foggers are making formic acid out of the OA then so are the VarroX and other wands.
Seen a few OAV videos but nothing like this one until today.





Just about the time you think you've learned something someone else comes along and says it'll never work.
I'm going to have to evoke the sacred "50:50". Either it works or it don't.


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## shinbone

aunt betty said:


> If these foggers are making formic acid out of the OA then so are the VarroX and other wands.


AB - Do you know the temperature profile of insect foggers vs purpose-built OAV devices? I think that is the issue that make people think the insect foggers won't work for OAV - they get too hot and heat the OA too quickly so that it goes from dihydrate to above its decomposition temperature before the OA can sublimate into its vapor form.


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## aunt betty

I think there is some truth to that. I can use my digital laser thermometer to check but just by visual the tube it goes thru is red-hot.
In mechanical engineer speak red hot steel is called austenite which is around 1333 F. (assuming it's a steel tube)
That's WAY over 384 F or whatever number the guy in the video quoted as the point of decomposition of the OA.
Might be using the fogger for camping trips but not on bees.

I believe that this topic has been brought up and beaten down at least once on this forum. 
Fell for it too. Them dog gone YouTube videos are convincing and that one by justbeecuz sold me on the idea. 
I think he's in Colorado. The video had mountains. Lets go gettem! 

I will fire up the fogger and take a reading for a laugh.
My thermometer only goes up to 999 F. 
It maxed out. That's all the science I got for the day.


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## aunt betty

Got me all sciency. 
Have not used this since last fall. Set the timer for 2 minutes as a time reference.
I think it's decomposing once it gets past 384 F so a certain amount of the treatment is formic and CO2. That's a one-gram dose.




If I recall right you're supposed to unplug at 2 minutes. Re-read instructions time.
It appears that whoever designed the VarroX has already done a whole lot more science than I'm wanting to do and has it pretty well nailed. Did well in thermodynamics but someone would have to pay me to remember Bernoulli and all that crap.


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## aunt betty

OMG this thing is wicked. It's only $3600. lool
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?331612-VM-Vaporizer&highlight=vmvaporizor


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## shinbone

AB - excellent demo. It looks like a lot of vapor is produced before the Varrox goes above 350F. Meaning, even though the final temp is above 400F, I bet it produces plenty OA vapors before any decomposition of the OA starts.


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## Harley Craig

You guys are missing the science behind it, doesn't matter how hot the device is OA won't go past its boiling point unless it's pressurized just like if you boil a pot of water with an accetlyne torch it won't get any hotter than it's boiling point unless it's in a pressure cooker. It's plausible the fogger has enough back pressure to increase the temp past its boiling point but the distance it takes to leave the tube will determine how far past AB you take a temp reading on the steam or the heating g element itself?


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## aunt betty

I never put the liquid in. Tomorrow I will actually mix some up and fog hives for the final round in the four-round schedule. Been doing it weekly and this would be the third week, fourth treatment.
Plz don't ask me to count mites. I know they all have them. Two years ago I was skeptical and did mite counts on many colonies. Every single one had treatment-level mite condition. 

Making that video and posting it felt a little weird. I know there are a hundred other videos of the same thing only no digital thermometer.


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## shinbone

Obviously you are free to do whatever you want, however, it is easy to screw up an OAV treatment, especially if you are using a relatively new method. How do you know whether this is working for you if you aren't checking mite-fall or doing sugar rolls or something else?


I use a white witness board (sheet of white coroplast) slid into the hive through the entrance. I don't count mites, but I can tell right away what kind of mite kill I am getting.














Witness board showing 6 mites 24 hours after an OAV treatment:




As compared to this mite fall from a different hive at a different time:








.


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## Lburou

Thanks aunt betty for that excellent video! I had read or watched most of that in real life, but he added some real interesting points. Trying to keep an open mind about new and better ways to apply OAV, yet don't want to buy any swamp land either. 

ADDED for AB: Prolly no different than yard foggers, don't know. I had the impression the fire was adjustable on the unit I ordered, the yard foggers did not appear that way (could be wrong on one or both assumptions). I went with the hopper (gravity feed) rather than the suction design, gravity is always on and you can operate with smaller volumes using the gravity feed, JMO.


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## pa-farmhand

Harley Craig said:


> You guys are missing the science behind it, doesn't matter how hot the device is OA won't go past its boiling point unless it's pressurized just like if you boil a pot of water with an accetlyne torch it won't get any hotter than it's boiling point unless it's in a pressure cooker. It's plausible the fogger has enough back pressure to increase the temp past its boiling point but the distance it takes to leave the tube will determine how far past AB you take a temp reading on the steam or the heating g element itself?


I think Harley Craig is right. Because I know it kills mites. I was thinking about using this method and started reading beesource and decided not to . Because everyone on here agread it wouldnt work. Then i decided the heck with beesource experts I am gonna try it. And the bottom line is I killed mites


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## shinbone

Harley Craig said:


> You guys are missing the science behind it . . .


Science is good, but what we really need is proof that it works. And, personally, a few people saying it works isn't enough for me. To be convinced, I will need to see photographs of mite fall or before-and-after alcohol wash numbers or something else a little more concrete than a casual observation by a couple of people. Obviously, people are free to use whatever they want in their own hive. Just don't be surprised that people are skeptical of fogging as a mite control considering its history.

I get really good results with my Varrox, and now the Provap. The Varrox suffered from being slow, not so with the Provap. Regardless of speed, both are really good at killing mites. I have seen my own witness board results, which are graphic unmistakable proof of mite kills. I have posted these multiple times for anyone interested. I have seen other people's witness board results, too. There is no doubt that both of these devices deliver results when properly used.

I am not saying a fogger will never work, but with easy and effective methods already available, there is no need to mess around with unproven methods. This is especially true until more evidence is provided that fogging with some form of OA solution works.


JMHO



.


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## pa-farmhand

i plan on doing alcohol wash before and after this fall . I will try and share the results once i have them . I have never posted pics online before but i will try and do that once i do my next treatment. I will be honest it dosnt bother me if others believe me or not I can see that it kills mites and that makes it interesting to me . Although i dont know if it is doing as good of a job as my varrox until i do alcohol wash before and after . Although i will share something if i think its a benefit to others i have no axe to grind in this argument


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## shinbone

Great - Supporting information is helpful to others trying to make their own decision on how to deal with mites.


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## msl

^ this.. you can find posts about this all the way back to 2003
the pattern is the same
some one has great idea
trys it, thinks it great, and will get back with some counts....Then dissapears 



> You guys are missing the science behind it, doesn't matter how hot the device is OA won't go past its boiling point


if that is true the OA will never sublime as it will never get past the alocoals boiling point


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## texanbelchers

Not a scientific study, just thinking in post form:

173 F = Ethanol/Boiling point
212 F = Water boiling point
214 F = Oxalic Acid dehydrate -> anhydrous
315+F = Oxalic Acid sublimation
373 F = Oxalic Acid decomposition into CO, C02, and H2O (possibly formic acid)

In an open pan it would be hard to continue heating sublimated OA because it floats away from the heat source. At some point for any device all of the sublimed OA will recrystallize after leaving the heating source. Since this is well within the effective period of several days, it must be the crystal form that actually works.

A ProVap type device contains the sublimated OA for a period of time. It will get superheated to some extent, but it has been proven effective.

It would be interesting to see what is actually produced from a device like the fogger. It will depend on the actual time, temperature, and pressure in the tube. As the alcohol and water boil off, they will expand and I expect carry the OA (either crystal or gas) with it. At some point the OA may be heated enough to sublime, then possibly continue to be heated. The temperatures will vary throughout the tube and this would all change if the nozel on the end were removed or changed.

I'm curious if the Ethanol vapors would hurt the bees. I'm guessing they don't since it is being used by some.



pa-farmhand said:


> I pump the fogger till only oxalic fumes are coming then i fog my hives i use 2 trigger pulls per nuc and 4 per strong colony.


How are you defining the "oxalic fumes"? Is the fog visibly different? How long does it take to stop fogging after the trigger pull?



shinbone said:


> Science is good, but what we really need is proof that it works. And, personally, a few people saying it works isn't enough for me. To be convinced, I will need to see photographs of mite fall or before-and-after alcohol wash numbers or something else a little more concrete than a casual observation by a couple of people. Obviously, people are free to use whatever they want in their own hive. Just don't be surprised that people are skeptical of fogging as a mite control considering its history.
> 
> I get really good results with my Varrox, and now the Provap. The Varrox suffered from being slow, not so with the Provap. Regardless of speed, both are really good at killing mites. I have seen my own witness board results, which are graphic unmistakable proof of mite kills. I have posted these multiple times for anyone interested. I have seen other people's witness board results, too. There is no doubt that both of these devices deliver results when properly used.
> I am not saying a fogger will never work, but with easy and effective methods already available, there is no need to mess around with unproven methods. This is especially true until more evidence is provided that fogging with some form of OA solution works.


I'll agree with this. As far as "unproven methods", I like the idea of measuring a dose by trigger instead of weight or spoon. This is heading more in the continuous feed direction. Additionally, cost is involved in all of these systems. The search is for an effective, inexpensive to purchase and use system.


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## pa-farmhand

How are you defining the "oxalic fumes"? Is the fog visibly different? How long does it take to stop fogging after the trigger pull?


[/QUOTE]

Every time i am done with the fogger i run some mineral oil through it so it stays lubricated then i shut it off So once i go to use the fogger again i need to pump it till all the mineral oil is through and the oxalic vapors are coming. That is what i meant . If you run pure alcohol you get very little vapor if you run the oxalic alcohol mix you get a lot more vapor. And if you run mineral oil you get such clouds of vapor you could use it for a smoke screen


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## DerTiefster

A lot of people miss important things because they have definitions mis-filed in their heads. Sublimation temperature is defined in a similar way to boiling point: when the vapor pressure equals that of your customary sea-level atmosphere. If OA is below its sublimation temperature, it can still disappear into vapor, just like water can disappear into vapor without reaching its "boiling point." Iodine sublimes, too, and will coat the interior of its bottle at room temperature because some of it is evaporating and some condensing in equilibrium. That's why you see water condensing on the interior of a glass cover on a pot on the stove before the water actually boils.

When you dissolve something in a liquid and then aerosol-ize (pick your verb) the liquid, you will have some of the solute entrained in it. When the solvent evaporates, the solute is left behind in whatever tiny specs it is formed. When you evaporate OA, the fumes do the same physical thing that steam does: they re-condense into clouds of tiny specs of OA. But OA is not liquid in these conditions. Its vapor pressure at body temperature is lots less than that of water, so the condensed powder hangs around (much) longer. If you make an aerosol of ethyl alcohol and OA, the droplets will evaporate and leave finely dispersed OA crystals. The finer the aerosol, the finer the crystals.

Does any of you readers have a vaporizer at home that has a vibrator in it, making water aerosol without simply boiling the water? Those exist and have been common. I don't know what dominates the market at the moment. How about a perfume atomizer? Blow air across a venturi opening and suck up a liquid, breaking it up into tiny droplets? That's how carburetors work with gasoline, by the way. To say that something can't happen (for instance, evaporate) because "it doesn't get hot enough" is in some cases a mis-use of a concept.

For some reason, a "fogger" means a thermally driven evaporator to many readers of this board. It is also commonly applied to venturi- or otherwise-based atomizers. Solids don't have to reach their "sublimation temperature" before they have sufficient vapor pressure to disappear with the passage of time. Just like water can evaporate before reaching its boiling temperature. One must be careful of how one processes and applies concepts like these.


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## johno

An easy test to see if the fogger is turning the mixture into OA crystals is to fog towards the sun on a calm day. With the sublimation of OA when the gas leaves the heated device and meets the cooler air the OA re crystalizes and you can actually see the crystals glittering in the sun. Hence the reason I use a paper particle mask when vaporizing instead of my respirator, its much more comfortable as well. What is more if the OA was broken down with the high temperature used with a paper mask you could get a whiff of formic acid but that has never happened and I have been getting right into the vapor to look for that.
Johno


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## msl

> I use a paper particle mask when vaporizing instead of my respirator


that is a very bad idea


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## johno

I wear spectacles and seeing that my eyes do not breathe they do not circulate air so contact with the vapor is minimal. I have worked a great deal in chemical plants so do know the risks involved so I do not advocate that inexperienced persons should follow my example. I have been vaporizing OA for at least 4 years without any ill effect on myself or my bees but one should use a little common sense. OA vapor is not a gas but a particulate vapor ,fog or mist whatever word grabs you. Just vaporize a plume towards the sun and see for yourself.
Johno


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## pa-farmhand

msl said:


> ^ this.. you can find posts about this all the way back to 2003
> the pattern is the same
> some one has great idea
> trys it, thinks it great, and will get back with some counts....Then dissapears
> 
> 
> if that is true the OA will never sublime as it will never get past the alocoals boiling point


Ok you guys convinced me to do an alcohol wash today on 5/27 sat may 27th . I just had to know what my mite counts are. Ok to give some background here i brought 2 nucs home on april 21 they were 10 frame mediums the equiptment is shot but for $115 a piece i felt it was a steal. I didnt know what the situation was with mites so i treated them using oxalic acid in a burgess 1443 propane heated insect fogger. Over the next 5 days i counted aproxametly 300 mites. So i knew i had mites and the nuc had quite a few frames of capped brood. So i treated them every 5 days 4 times in a row which covers 15 days. Which if i understand it right should cover all capped brood in the hive. The last treatment was 5/16 may the 16th. Which was 12 days ago. Today i found 2 frames of open brood and shook the bees into my wife tupperware bowl i scooped out a generus 1/2 cup of bees and put them into a mason jar poured a can of rubbing alcohol into the jar screwed on the lid and shook the jar as hard as i could for about 5 min then i took of the solid lid and put a piece of 1/8 hardware cloth that i had cut to fit in the lid screwed it on and shook all the alcohol into the bowl i rinsed them 3 times with water to make sure i got all the mites. The result was 0 mites. I wish i had alcohol wash numbers pre treatment but i dont. I do know that i killed hundreds of mites with the treatments but i dont know the numbers per hundred pre treatment. This was my first alcohol wash ever but it wasnt hard. I will be using this method this fall pre and post treatment to get hard numbers on mites pre and post treatment . I will share those numbers at that time. Hopefully this is a help msl. Finally someone came back to you with mite wash numbers


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## shinbone

pa-farmhand - Thanks for the follow up! Hopefully you OA foggers are onto something.


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## johno

Nah the mites in his hive just died laughing when they read all the comments on why things don't work. LOL
Johno


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## msl

Thanks for running some numbers !
The question is not weather or not it kills mites, its if it kills at level that dosn't leave a bunch of mites with a subleathle dose leading to potential resistance.
OA is not ment to be used in coerce of 4 treatments when brood is on... not roateing is a surefire way to develop resistance..OA is an early spring/late fall bloodless treatment, or as a clean up. 
a fast, easy, cheap treatment leads to abuse
and thats part of the issue here, the want to believes... 

IE no need for a $400 provap, just use a $60 fogger, no need for $$ on Asid rated respirator cartridges and full face mask, just use a simple paper mask and safty glasses. 
Neither seem to be very good advice, and seem to go with the idea that beekeepers before us were stupid and didn't think of such an obvious solution, the answer is of course they did. The question is then why it has never become a standard.
Now there is a part of me that realy wants to try it, but 


Richard Cryberg said:


> I would not use a fogger for this without wearing a Scott Air Pack for safety. I do not think a normal respirator is enough protection with all the volume coming from a fogger.. And, as a chemist I am hardly chemophobic. I have worked with things so toxic they make cyanide pretty safe.


Given the man who wrote this is a PHD chemist, I will stick to other methods, but look for ward to the results of outhers


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## johno

Msl, there was a study done on hives that had been treated with OAV for 8 years I think with hives that were never treated with OA before and it was found that the efficacy of the treatment was the same with both types of hives leading to the conclusion that it was unlikely for varoa to become resistant to organic acids. Which got me thinking that the human race has had firearms for a few centuries but man has never become resistant to bullets, even those who have been wounded a number of times. I would like to know who it was that stated that OAV was not to be used over a period of time to treat varoa and would like to see their studies leading to this conclusion. You know of course it was the experts who led beekeepers down the path of cuomaphos and fluvalinate and you can see where that ended up. It is often said that the proof of the pudding is in the eating so when I tell you that I use a paper mask it is because I have studied OAV and have come to the conclusion that the sublimated OA condenses into fine crystals shortly after leaving the heated device and meeting the cooler air. The use of the paper mask is the proof of the theory, I have a respirator but again used the paper mask to prove my observations were correct. This does not mean that if you are wearing an ill fitted mask that you will not be exposed to inhaling some of the vapor, this will be the case no matter what type of mask you wear. Then with later experiments tried to smell any sign of formic in the fumes to see if the OA was breaking down, formic was never sensed. Again on a still day blow a plume of OA toward s the sun and see for yourself even if the OA was breaking down some there appears plenty of OA crystals to go around.
Johno


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## msl

your missing the point of repeated SUB leathle ineffectual treatments, and not roating treatments being a great way to select for resistance... 
the rest of your questions can be answered by reading the label (witch is the law) and some Randy Oliver. 
I am glad your finly tuned eye was able to tell you there were not particals small enuf to get threw your unrated paper mask 
however the The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health disagrees with your evaluation 


> Up to 25 mg/m3:
> (APF = 25) Any supplied-air respirator operated in a continuous-flow mode£
> (APF = 25) Any powered, air-purifying respirator with a high-efficiency particulate filter.£
> 
> Up to 50 mg/m3:
> (APF = 50) Any air-purifying, full-facepiece respirator with an N100, R100, or P100 filter.
> Click here for information on selection of N, R, or P filters.
> (APF = 50) Any self-contained breathing apparatus with a full facepiece
> (APF = 50) Any supplied-air respirator with a full facepiece
> 
> Up to 500 mg/m3:
> (APF = 2000) Any supplied-air respirator that has a full facepiece and is operated in a pressure-demand or other positive-pressure mode


a dubble deep is about .082 m3 and a therapeutic does is 2,000 mg

you can see they require a full face respirator at more then 25 mg per m3
if you hitting the proper dose level, your dealing with 24,096 mg per m3 
people are getting very cavalier about OAV, they should not be, take it for what is is worth..


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## larrypeterson

If I may,

I have been using food grade glycerin, mixed with oa, in my fogger. I don't have a reliable formula, however, it appears to be keeping the mites in check. I am not sure a mix ratio is really all that important as long as it totally dissolves before filling the fogger. I also have, and swear by, my onyvap unit. It heats up to the point that it sometimes chars the top board when I use the top entrance. I really do not have a clue where the truth lies but I think that in time it will all get worked out. In the mean time, the folks working with genitics are bound to be helping out and making a split to break the brood cycle of the mite will also assist in the "fight." 

Right now I am very much interested in "Colony Collaps Dissorder" which is more of a mystry to me. My wife and I went several years and never lost a hive over the winter. Just when I thought we had the perfect formula, we loose a bunch. The only thing that I am quite certain of is that wintering extra colonies, in nucs, flower pots, 8 frames or 10 frames, is the best way to insure having enough bees and resources to "keep up with the game."

I wish you well, LP


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## msl

larrypeterson said:


> If I may,I have been using food grade glycerin, mixed with oa, in my fogger. I don't have a reliable formula, however


OA+glycerin+ heat is how they manufacture formic acid. it may or may not be of therapeutic concentration in the large volume of glycerin fog 


Richard Cryberg said:


> Oxalic acid in glycerin starts to break down at a temp of 100 deg C according to all sorts of available literature and a bit higher than that and decomposition is really fast. Foggers are way hotter than this. Glycerin has a boiling point of 290 deg C so you are going to have to get at least that hot. The net result of fogging a glycerin solution of oxalic acid would be zero oxalic acid getting in the hive. Draw your own conclusions.


I would love to hear about your experanceces over wintering in flower pots, I run a lot of alternative hives


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## johno

Msl , you can throw around any figures you wish and it still does not alter the fact that a 3M paper particulate mask will prevent the ingress of OA particles and I have undeniably proved that. If you look at the figures some of the experts will put out you will realize that according to the theory of aerodynamics bumble bees cannot fly yet they do. The oxalic acid dehydrate label that I have in front of me states for personal protection equipment : Half face respirator with cartridge and/or particulate filter. 
As to the density of the vapor, I do not believe it is of consequence as it is mostly within the confines of the hive bodies. I will agree that under dosage is not good as it will lead to increase in mite growth when the opposite is expected unless mite checks are carried out about 2 weeks after the treatment regimen has been completed this mite growth could have negative impact on the health of the hive so treated. You still seem to believe that hives cannot be treated over and over again every 5 to 7 days until their mites are brought under control, here again many beekeepers are doing so with good results and low winter losses so again the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Johno


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## msl

> You still seem to believe that hives cannot be treated over and over again every 5 to 7 days until their mites are brought under control


can it be done? yes
should it be done? no
is it against the law to? yes


> Use only in late fall or early spring when little or no brood is present.
> Oxalic Acid Dihydrate might damage bee brood.
> Oxalic Acid Dihydrate will not control Varroa mites in capped brood.





> rotate the use of miticides to reduce selection pressure as compared to repeatedly using the same product, mode or action or chemical class. If multiple applications are required, use a different mode of action each time before returning to a previously-used one





> Oxalic acid’s mechanism of action is unknown at this time. Any Varroa mite population has the potential to become resistant to acaricides. Resistance development is affected by both the frequency of application and rate/dose of application. Continued reliance on a single class of miticide or single miticide with the same mode of action will select for resistant individuals which may dominate the mite population in subsequent generations. In order to prevent resistance development and to maintain the usefulness of individual insecticides it is important to adopt appropriate resistant management strategies


yes the labble states 1/2 mask, but also states to use only powder and to aply heat after the powder is in the vaporizer.... there is a big difrance between using a wand, placing it in a hive, backing off and turning it on to heat up VS walking around with a fogger in your hand. in this case distance is your friend. as I said, take it for what its worth 

Not rotating treatments because you are cheap or lazy is bad beekeeping, using a late fall/early spring treatment at mid summer and gassing your hive 4-5x in a row is bad beekeeping.
in short the people who are miss behaving risk messing up a good treatment for us all, just like has happened with every other past mite treatment.
as I said earlyer, this is the problem with a cheap easy treatment, people abuse it
is it a 100% going to happen, no. but never say never with anything bees
is it realy that hard to rotate in some Thymol and MAQS if you have a summer problem?

I am a total cheap and lazy beekeeper, I really want this idea to pan out, it is right up my ally.....but there is a lot of info that it won't.


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## johno

Hows it going with the bee police, Selling my nucs for $100 apiece hope I am not spoiling things for the rest of the world? Sell my honey for $7 per pound in glass I hope that's OK with the Bee Police. And by the way don't treat at all or you might upset the treatment free folks. So in the end somebody is going to tell what to do and how to do it or you might offend the rest of the world. No for me that does not cut it, the world is a competitive arena not yet an arena for the good of all according to Garp.
Johno


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## pa-farmhand

Is there any resistance showing up to formic acid? Also how long have people been using formic acid ? Also i dont know if this method is going to be consistent. I am currently testing it but if it proves to consistently clean up the mites i will continue to use it. At this point it looks very promising but i will need to see it work multiple times to decide. Also as far as the EPA.....trust the government to regulate a natural substence .


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## johno

I used formic acid that I diluted to 50% before I started on OAV. I built a few Amrine and Noel flash treatment boards and used them on all my hives for a few years. However consistency of treatment was always a problem due to temperature fluctuations and hive cluster size, which meant mite counting on too many hives. There has been no evidence for mites forming resistance to any of the acid treatments although they have been used around the world for over 20 years I believe. Man invented firearms in the 16th century and nothing has developed resistance to bullets.
Johno


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## pa-farmhand

oh i agree johno. I didnt make clear what i meant. i am not planning on using formic acid. i meant that if oxalic acid in a fogger is consistant i will continue using it. I was just curious if there was any proof that bees are getting resistant to acid . I meant it sarcasticly . I agree with what you are saying about 100%


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## alfred westlake

I just tried this with a burgess Fogger. I mixed 100ml of 95 proof everclear with 25g of Ace hardware wood bleach OA. It certainly seemed to work well.

I have no mite counts though.

Next time around I will place some clean boards down and see what kind of mite kill I get.
I will also try to get some temps off of the gizmo to see how hot it is getting.
It sure is faster and easier than using my glowplug style heater tray.


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## Groundhwg

alfred westlake said:


> I just tried this with a burgess Fogger. I mixed 100ml of 95 proof everclear with 25g of Ace hardware wood bleach OA. It certainly seemed to work well.
> 
> I have no mite counts though.
> 
> Next time around I will place some clean boards down and see what kind of mite kill I get.
> I will also try to get some temps off of the gizmo to see how hot it is getting.
> It sure is faster and easier than using my glowplug style heater tray.


Looking for more information on if a fogger with OA works. Anyone using a fogger have any updates and more information on how it is working at killing mites?


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## Groundhwg

alfred westlake said:


> I just tried this with a burgess Fogger. I mixed 100ml of 95 proof everclear with 25g of Ace hardware wood bleach OA. It certainly seemed to work well.
> 
> I have no mite counts though.
> 
> Next time around I will place some clean boards down and see what kind of mite kill I get.
> I will also try to get some temps off of the gizmo to see how hot it is getting.
> It sure is faster and easier than using my glowplug style heater tray.


You have any updates, yet.


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## rwurster

Dr oxalic and the bee police are going to come get you Groundhwg :no:


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## brushwoodnursery

I've been reading all I can about vap vs fog and have a question. With the fogger, it's said that the temperature is too high and the OA will degrade before it ever leaves the tool. That's based on the fact that the coil heats over 1000f. To me, it's only logical that the inside surface temperature of the coil will go down as it is applying the product (latent heat of vaporization). So, you shoot it with an IR meter while it's sitting there and it looks bad. What if you throw a few shots over the bow of the first hive to cool the coil and then keep a steady pace. I am certain it will cool down. How much?
Along those same lines, water takes more energy to vaporize. What about mixing a little in so it takes more energy from the coil in operation? Find a blend of everclear and water that doesn't precipitate out the OA but steals lots of energy from the coil.
Also, I've never seen one of these foggers up close but could a bit of steel plate be added somewhere to keep the coil cooler? I know you could clog the unit quickly if it's too cold even in one spot but, hey, if a little mod to a $50 unit creates a cheap, effective treatment...


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