# Housel positioning - how to get it right?



## Rader Sidetrack

There are some diagrams at this page by Dee Lusby that you may find useful:
http://beesource.com/point-of-view/...ning-how-i-view-its-importance-to-beekeeping/



FYI, I'm providing a _link to an article_.  That does not imply endorsement of the material at that link.


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## beemandan

Rader Sidetrack said:


> FYI, I'm providing a _link to an article_.
> 
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> That does not imply endorsement of the material at that link.


Pretty much sums up my thinking on the subject.


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## Dan the bee guy

Ha ha ha!


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## enjambres

My original bees were all cut out of long-occupied wall cavities, so I started beekeeping with continuous combs that were 2 feet wide and 10 feet high. I nearly went blind, or crazy, trying to reconcile what I saw on those completely natural combs with the _theory_ of Housel positioning. 

At one point I had a dozen square yards of comb spread on every table in my house trying to figure this out.

I still have half of a chest freezer filled with these combs. Bet I couldn't figure it out now, either.

Enj.


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## 1102009

I do the housel position ( with foundations) but you can´t imitate the natural arrangements in a hive with this, because the central comb is missing.

With the outer combs the Y points into different directions after some time, because the bees always work on combs and the combs which are sometimes heavier, sometimes lighter change their structure all the time.

They say, that the bees are less defensive and will not swarm as often if you use this arrangement. I have not observed this in two years, the colonies differ among themselves in this behavior. This has to do with genetics.

They say that a new queen will start laying on the center comb ( or combs). My new queens did not. I don´t know their priorities, but it may be the pollen store areas which influence this.

As long as I will use foundations I will keep it up though because it makes me more sensitive to the broodnest arrangements. I like not to disturb the brood nests much and this helps.


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## Michael Palmer

The Housel positioning of foundation assumes that there is a central comb which is different that the other combs in the cavity. The Y's are aligned "properly" against the central comb. Years ago, a commercial beekeeper in Scotland offered $10,000 to anyone sending him a central comb, or a photo of a central comb. Needless to say, a central comb hasn't materialized. 

The Housel position, according to Lusby, has the Y's facing down when toward that central comb. This Y creates a shelf that faces up, and when an egg is laid on that shelf, the egg is facing up...and that's how it should be. If the foundation is reversed, and the Y's face up, that creates a shelf that faces down, and the colony supersedes. But, remember that if the Y's...which are really only where 3 cells meet on the other side of the foundation...face up on one side of the frame, they face down on the other. So, does that mean that the bees supersede only on one side of the comb?

Housel Position = Bogus


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## 1102009

I have to watch this, very interesting point. So far i have seen no context. The superseding cells were on both sides.
Michael, how is it with natural comb?
How do beekeepers arrange the foundations? Just put them in, no matter how? And do they change the sides while working or do they put the frames back like they were arranged before?
That´s what I learned in bee class ( natural comb used).

Here a link where the Lusby`s points are explained again. S.Braun claims the success.

http://www.resistantbees.com/anordnung_e.html

Oh, I just saw it´s the same as Rider Sidetrack posted.


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## AR Beekeeper

The three years I tried small cell colonies I also incorporated Housel Positioning in the brood nest. I saw none of the benefits claimed by Lusby. I have read comments on other web sites that stated Housel himself never claimed any benefits from the comb position. He just said that he had found a "central comb" around which the brood nest was built that had certain characteristics.


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## JWChesnut

"Housel" is a case study in the sociology of belief groups. An abstruse, gnostic practice that is used to define in-group membership, and exclude the non-believers.

The practice is all about how human social groups define their "hive" to include only the select.


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## AHudd

I use wired foundation with hooks, so if the manufacturer of the foundation doesn't have it right, I guess I'm :ws:

Alex


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## Vance G

JWChesnut said:


> "Housel" is a case study in the sociology of belief groups. An abstruse, gnostic practice that is used to define in-group membership, and exclude the non-believers.
> 
> The practice is all about how human social groups define their "hive" to include only the select.


We who are about to die, Salute You! Now that is logic and wordsmanship!


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## squarepeg

JWChesnut said:


> The practice is all about how human social groups define their "hive" to include only the select.


that is what appears to be happening on certain forums and facebook pages. 

with respect to housel i'm thinking it's just an artifact of how each new comb is progressively started and drawn from the first, i.e. it's likely that the cells facing the existing comb are drawn first at the top and the cells on the other side come next and are started a half row down.

i'm moving combs around all the time without regard to their prior position and there's been no harm done as far as i can see.


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## enjambres

I probably move combs a bit less than SP, and I am careful about their orientation vis a vis the center of the nest, i.e I try to keep the inward-facing surface consistent, even if I turn them around 180 degrees and insert them on the opposite side of the centerline. 

I make more effort to do this if it is a brood comb, but I am much less rigid if I am, say, inserting a frame of honey or stores towards the outside of a box. Sometimes, though, practical management issues make this impossible.

Most of my frames have a began-use-date marked on one end of the top surface so I am aware when I look at the top of the box which way is which. I can't imagine trying to do this without some kind of mark.

Enj.


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## aunt betty

JWChesnut said:


> "Housel" is a case study in the sociology of belief groups. An abstruse, gnostic practice that is used to define in-group membership, and exclude the non-believers.
> 
> The practice is all about how human social groups define their "hive" to include only the select.


Where's the "like" button? :applause:


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## jonsl

aunt betty said:


> Where's the "like" button? :applause:


Try this: :thumbsup:

..and here's one from me! :thumbsup:


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## 1102009

enjambres said:


> I probably move combs a bit less than SP, and I am careful about their orientation vis a vis the center of the nest, i.e I try to keep the inward-facing surface consistent, even if I turn them around 180 degrees and insert them on the opposite side of the centerline.
> 
> I make more effort to do this if it is a brood comb, but I am much less rigid if I am, say, inserting a frame of honey or stores towards the outside of a box. Sometimes, though, practical management issues make this impossible.
> 
> Most of my frames have a began-use-date marked on one end of the top surface so I am aware when I look at the top of the box which way is which. I can't imagine trying to do this without some kind of mark.
> 
> Enj.


Thanks enjambres.

I like constructive thinking.  I treat the combs just like that. And Housel taught me to be aware of this, even without me believing in the arrangement.


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## Richard Cryberg

It is always a curiosity to me how such things as this develop a life and following when even a mild observation of the real world facts would end the idea forever. In this case once a larva or two is reared in a cell the bottom becomes a spherical shape and the Y is long gone due to accumulated wax, propolis and cocoons. Perhaps if you use wax foundation enough light could come thru so you could see the cell walls on the other side and delude your self into thinking you were seeing something on the bottom of the cell I suppose. I have looked at hundreds of cell bottoms carefully while grafting and have yet to see a single one where I could see a Y at all on plastic foundation unless I happened to pull the cocoon and wax off the bottom of the cell. Yet that foundation starts life with the Y just like wax foundation.


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## jim lyon

But of course most hive interiors are dark anyway and the whole premise is that somehow bees can see and will react differently to the position of the "Y" on the opposite side. There is also a school of thought out there that maintains bees will draw out black tinted plastic foundation better than lighter colors. Go figure.


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## odfrank

jim lyon said:


> But of course most hive interiors are dark anyway and the whole premise is that somehow bees can see and will react differently to the position of the "Y" on the opposite side.


Of course Jim, bees can't see in the dark. They feel out the up or down Y with their antennae, like a blind person reading Braille.


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## JRG13

If I dump a swarm or something into a box of foundationless frames, will I get a mythical central comb? Perhaps I'll try it this year...


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## jim lyon

Only those who believe will see.


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## Michael Bush

>Years ago, a commercial beekeeper in Scotland offered $10,000 to anyone sending him a central comb, or a photo of a central comb. Needless to say, a central comb hasn't materialized. 

That's the only thing I CAN find fairly consistently. Here's a picture if you would like one...
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/PrimaryCombOnBlankStarterStrip.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/TypicalPrimaryComb.JPG

But after that I can't find any pattern.


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## Michael Palmer

jim lyon said:


> Only those who believe will see.


9.8, 9.6, 9.8, 10.0 :applause:


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## Michael Palmer

Michael Bush said:


> That's the only thing I CAN find fairly consistently. Here's a picture if you would like one...


Okay. Just how is that little bit of comb different than any other comb the bees would build afterward? If you really think you have something different and significant, you have a valuable little piece of wax. Claim the reward. I'll send you contact information to collect your $10,000.


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## Hunajavelho

When a swarm occupies a nest of any shape without foundation or strips, they start from one wall, never ever from the middle.


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## beemandan

jim lyon said:


> Only those who believe will see.


Right along the lines of 'you'll see it when you believe it'.


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## Michael Bush

>Okay. Just how is that little bit of comb different than any other comb the bees would build afterward? If you really think you have something different and significant, you have a valuable little piece of wax. Claim the reward. I'll send you contact information to collect your $10,000.

It's the first comb and 9 times out of 10 it is in that configuration of the "Y" sideways (looking the same from both sides). Or to put it another way, the "rows" of cells are running vertical rather than horizontal. This is what Housel describes as the "primary" comb. After that they are seldom exactly vertical. But neither are they running in any way that is predictable, in my observation. It's just the first comb that is somewhat predictable.


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## JRG13

MB,

I didn't really know what the picture was showing, but when I looked at it, I was confused cuz it didn't seem the Y's were up or down and now I get that's what it was showing.


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## 1102009

Like that:






















Foundations are a treatment !?....


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## Michael Bush

>Like that:

Yes. Those are all with the rows running vertical like the primary comb.


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