# Caucasian bees and treatment free



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If I could find them, I'd probably run some Caucasian hives. I don't know where you would find any. They are very gentle, reasonably productive, and like to propolize a lot. Like fly paper propolis. You try to put a frame back down but it sticks to your gloves...


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## MrGreenThumb (Apr 22, 2007)

But how are they at being healthy? Do they have any advantages over other bees, or disadvantages?


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## e3eridani (Aug 1, 2015)

They have the longest tongue therefore they are good for clover if you have it.
Also they are not really good for cold areas since they do wet capping instead of dry capping like black ones do.
Not really that gentle as carnica but not up to annoyance level.
In Germany they are often sold as black bees. That's how I've got them ;-)
Btw, there are yellow and grey Caucasians.


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## MrGreenThumb (Apr 22, 2007)

e3eridani said:


> They have the longest tongue therefore they are good for clover if you have it.
> Also they are not really good for cold areas since they do wet capping instead of dry capping like black ones do.
> Not really that gentle as carnica but not up to annoyance level.
> In Germany they are often sold as black bees. That's how I've got them ;-)
> Btw, there are yellow and grey Caucasians.


What do you mean by this? _"Also they are not really good for cold areas since they do wet capping instead of dry capping like black ones do."_

Not good for cold areas...you mean Ohio and West Virginia areas? Do not these bees originate in a cooler/wet environment? What is this wet cappings thing you write about?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>But how are they at being healthy? Do they have any advantages over other bees, or disadvantages?

When I had them I had no issues. I also had no Varroa mites... I would not expect any disadvantages other than the disadvantage/advantage of more propolis.


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## e3eridani (Aug 1, 2015)

About USA areas, sorry I don't know. I'm Ukrainian originally, now in Germany due to all that cerap there. 

In UA we had some Caucasian in the begining, but it is too cold in winter for them due to continental climate.
The bees are coming frow warm areas of Caucasian mountains, especially yellow Caucasian bees. Grey ones better overwinter in cold areas compare to yellow. Therefore grey Caucasian are used in Russia despite it is more cold than in Caucasus.

Wet capping means that bees don't leave a bit of air between honey and the cap of the cells to cooldown their hive. While black bees leave, in order to make the combs less heat conducting, as you know, air is less heat conducting than honey. It is like wearing a wet dress where between the skin and cloths is watter instead of air so you cool down faster.

Due to this, when you look at combs of Caucasian bees, you see honey through the capping and it makes effect of wet capping. Black bees capping almost fully white because you see air, not honey (carnical makes wax yellowish but still dry), so it is called dry capping.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

e3eridani said:


> Wet capping means that bees don't leave a bit of air between honey and the cap of the cells to cooldown their hive. While black bees leave, in order to make the combs less heat conducting, as you know, air is less heat conducting than honey. It is like wearing a wet dress where between the skin and cloths is watter instead of air so you cool down faster.
> 
> Due to this, when you look at combs of Caucasian bees, you see honey through the capping and it makes effect of wet capping. Black bees capping almost fully white because you see air, not honey (carnical makes wax yellowish but still dry), so it is called dry capping.


I see what you describe in my hives, but it´s not air. I have carnis, elgons and AMM. Same with all. Both cappings are dry. The liquid honey caps look "wet", the crystallized honey "dry". If you harvest you see no air under the caps with all cells.
What I see is the nectar is used to cool the hive. If the bees need cooling they forage more if possible and bring no water. They use the humidity from nectar and they take their time to cap.


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## e3eridani (Aug 1, 2015)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=75WkN4-NFCM

Go to 57th second. Sorry it is in Russian but the guy shows and explains how to distinguish races of bees just looking on their habits. One of them is wet/dry capping. There you can see what I mean.


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## e3eridani (Aug 1, 2015)

Here is some description of advantages and disadvantages.

The best their advantage is that they switch from one to other nectar flow very easy and can take advantage even of a small source of nectar.

But it is recommended to take some additional measures when wintering below +4

https://translate.googleusercontent...la.htm&usg=ALkJrhiKEwOYbfr2m46TEfoTUnpvjxNuIQ


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Mmh, I´m not convinced, but I´m known for a notorious sceptic 

Thanks for the links, it´s always nice to learn something new.

My bees are under the influence of Primorsky drones, which my russian neighbor keeps. But these are different. I don´t know much about them but the foragers like to drift into other race`s hives and become part of the colony.

Here a pict of one of my combs with different cappings. Both have no air underneath, honey is liquid. Could be age, though to make it look like that. I have no fresh honey comb available just now for exhibition.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Dry and wet cappings have been extensively discussed for centuries. Here that was a big issue when going from the "German" black bee (AMM) to the Italians. People liked the look of the dry cappings for comb honey. And it is due to a small amount of air leaving a gap between the honey and the cap. It is interesting to see a picture with a mixture of both and perhaps it is the crystallization that has pulled the honey away from the cap in this case.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Michael, there is no crystallized honey in this comb, I swear it! All liquid.
Or do you mean the video?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

MrGreenThumb said:


> But how are they at being healthy? Do they have any advantages over other bees, or disadvantages?


I understand OP means pure strains of caucasian bees.

According to Brother Adam Caucasian bees have several advantages and disadvantages. 
Good: they are gentle and stay on the comb. There is not much burrcomb
Bad: They store honey near brood, they are not building eagerly new comb 
When compared to other races one major disadvantage was that they do not have good disease resistance , only black bees were worse in this respective according to him.

In the 1970´s many beekeepers made experiments with caucasian bees in Finland. Many did not like their habbit to use propolis excessive amounts (I mean they totally shut the entrance with it!), but there were two major reasons why the caucasian bees soon disappeared in Finland:
-They were very prone to Nosema (just like Brother Adam claimed) and therefore they quite often wintered purely, lots of faces on the hive surfaces in spring etc.
- They developed too slowly in the Finnish short season. Because they make a big brood but develop slowly, they are excellent bees for late flow areas. But if early or midsummer flow is important, and there is just couple of months to get ready to make honey, they turned out to be too slow to develop.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> Both have no air underneath, honey is liquid.


The dark ones have no air underneath, the white ones have. 

Oh sorry, I forgot, Sibylle does not believe when an experienced beekeeper is telling the truth.



Michael Bush said:


> It is interesting to see a picture with a mixture of both and perhaps it is the crystallization that has pulled the honey away from the cap in this case.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

SiWolKe said:


> Mmh, I´m not convinced, but I´m known for a notorious sceptic
> 
> Thanks for the links, it´s always nice to learn something new.
> 
> ...


The cappings that are white, have a small space of air under the capping, that's what makes it be white. The darker cappings have lost their air space so they turn dark. The cappings are so thin, that they show white with the air pocket under them, the natural color of bees wax, but when the air pocket gets absorbed, it shows the color of the honey underneath.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Only sceptic people learn something, Juhani, and have things explained.
I don´t care if you have a problem with that and can´t stand other opinions.

After WW2 we are raised to be rebellious to authority. Thanks to the US people.

It´s a bad mentor wanting pupils to believe everything without having some questions and doubts to the topic just because he is seasoned.
Maybe MB rolls his eyes about me but still he answers my mails.
No offense meant, Michael. I don´t doubt you. 

Many thanks, Ray.
Is the air pocket even absorbed when the honey stays liquid? So it looks to me.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes, over time, the air pocket goes away, so the wax capping lays down right on the honey, so it no longer looks white, as you see the color of the honey underneath, since the capping is so thin and somewhat translucent.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks Ray. My questions are answered.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Interesting topic here. Learn something today thanks to the questions and skeptics. 
On ebay I saw some offer for sale in season only. They are not pure with a mix of carnis in it.
Maybe one day when I cannot beat the local carnis drones then I will consider. For now the Cordovan mutt the
carnis drones turn my hives into the Italian mutt bees.


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## Hal Barkdull (Jun 22, 2017)

I have one hive of Caucasian bees. I purchased the queen last summer from Washington state university entomology Dept. They wintered well and were the first bees flying in the spring @ 43 deg. The hive I requeened with her had not had treatment in the two years previous and has had none since I put her in the hive. The hive is healthy mild mannered and productive. I use all deeps in my apiary, that hive is three deep and ready for a fourth box. I have had this queen for nearly a year and she has done well this far treatment free Hope that helps


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I had Caucasian bees from bolling bee when bill gafford owned it before it went out of business with new owner. I found them to be gentle to average temperament. Like a train to get going slow till quite strong. Over winter OK in my area with temp going to -20 to -30F. Good honey producers but not excellent. Always wet cappings which was my main objection to them as I like to produce comb honey. And of course lots of propolis. They always made there own entrance reducers every fall with usually 3 50 cent size holes to get in and out. Made my spring work tough. They are a good bee for some areas with later flows. I wouldn't use them for pollination work. I never got rid of them just used carniolan instead till they were absorbed so to speak. Carnis have beautiful white cappings and excellent overwintering good for my area along with good Russian stock.


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## Arbol (Apr 28, 2017)

John at OldSol Bees has worked with this strain of bees for along time. From the University.
He was talking about the bee's this last monday night at the SOBA bee club meeting.
He has had them for sale for quite some time now.
check his website out.


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