# burnt honey



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Make mead or feed back to the bees to use for feeding brood.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Wow, 30kg??? That's a lot of waste!

You need a spinner to spin the honey
out of the cappings next time, and if
you can save even half that 30kg, you
will quickly pay for the spinner with
the honey that you can sell rather than
not be able to sell.

The "burned" honey is not really a problem
unless fed to overwintering bees. If they
bees can fly and void their wastes, they
can tolerate the "burned" honey.


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## whitebark (Jul 14, 2004)

Thanks,

Yeah, alot of burnt honey. But it came from about 3 years of cappings that just sat unprocessed until this winter.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sometimes I like to make candy out of it. You can follow any kind of candy recipe from taffy to peanut brittle. Just use honey instead of sugar and instead of corn syrup and cook it to the same stage as required for the candy. You can also bake with it if it's not too burnt.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

How is burned honey different than burned sugar syrup?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

whitebark said:


> But it came from about 3 years of cappings that just sat unprocessed until this winter.


:scratch: Cappings that sit that long will float to the surface of any vessel. If you carefully scoped it out you wouldn't lose much honey. If you placed the cappings on cheescloth or a fine screen for less then a month you would lose practically no honey.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

honey sitting like that for extended amount of time has most likely already naturally fermented


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I wonder how many of the people posting above Michael Bush are actually still keeping bees now 11 years after the OP.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

kaizen said:


> honey sitting like that for extended amount of time has most likely already naturally fermented


Absolutely not. If it was dry enough it will never ferment.
I put my cappings in clear plastic jugs and the honey has never fermented it crystallizes but doesn't ferment. With a good stiff spoon you can scoop out the wax down to the honey and then slowly warm it to liquefy it again. Or eat it crystallized.


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## cgybees (Apr 20, 2015)

kaizen said:


> honey sitting like that for extended amount of time has most likely already naturally fermented


Honey doesn't ferment. Until you add water. Or unless you're storing undried syrup.


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## Jim Brewster (Dec 17, 2014)

cgybees said:


> Honey doesn't ferment. Until you add water. Or unless you're storing undried syrup.


If it is not tightly sealed it absorbs water from the air, and can certainly ferment this way in all but the driest climates.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

guess its pointless as this is from2005......why do they allow that??? but op states 3 years cappings. in that timeframe I doubt it wont' get some natural spores. anyone storing cappings for 3 years probably isn't the most sanitary storage. agree shorter time no problem. but 3 years uh huh


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Jim Brewster said:


> If it is not tightly sealed it absorbs water from the air, and can certainly ferment this way in all but the driest climates.


Jim a hygroscopic material will give up moisture otherwise you or the bees would never be able to dry it. Typically 45% RH is the neutral point.

Kaizen all honey has natural yeast spores from day one.


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## Jim Brewster (Dec 17, 2014)

Acebird said:


> Jim a hygroscopic material will give up moisture otherwise you or the bees would never be able to dry it. Typically 45% RH is the neutral point.


Yes, and my point being that for most of us that means honey will absorb water until it is dilute enough to start fermenting, which is anything more than 18-20% moisture, depending on various factors.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ah Jim 18% moisture and 45% RH are two different things.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Jim a hygroscopic material will give up moisture otherwise you or the bees would never be able to dry it. Typically 45% RH is the neutral point.


Ace, the _interior _of a hive (where bees dehydrate nectar into honey) has an environment that is _managed _by the bees. They can adjust the temperature, and with that, the humidity. Obviously, _somehow _bees manage to _generally_ get honey below 18.6% moisture, so there is clear evidence that process works.

And extracted honey, left in an unsealed container certainly _can _absorb additional moisture ...


> Hygroscopicity is another property of honey and describes the ability of honey to absorb and hold moisture from environment. During processing or storage however, the same Hygroscopicity can become problematic, causing difficulties in preservation and storage due to excess water content. [HIGHLIGHT]Normal honey with water content of 18.8% or less will absorb moisture from air of a relative humidity of above 60%. [/HIGHLIGHT]
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269714/


Certainly 60% relative humidity in a natural (unmanaged) environment is fairly common. Once that (extracted) _open _honey has absorbed additional moisture, its not easy to lower the moisture level back down below 18.6%. I'm sure you've seen the the _many _Beesource threads with questions about putting honey in a small room with a dehumidifier + heater in an _attempt _to lower honey moisture levels.


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## Jim Brewster (Dec 17, 2014)

Acebird said:


> Ah Jim 18% moisture and 45% RH are two different things.


I never said they were the same. If at >45% RH (which is a relatively dry day around here; so is 60% in the summer) honey that is >18% moisture continues to absorb water, fermentation is a distinct possibility.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Jim Brewster said:


> If at >45% RH (which is a relatively dry day around here; so is 60% in the summer) honey that is >18% moisture continues to absorb water, fermentation is a distinct possibility.


Sure it is, but most people live in houses and store their honey indoors not outdoors. 60% RH indoors for long periods of time would not be that common for most backyard beeks in this country. In warm areas there is air conditioning and in cool areas there is heat. Both make the air very dry.

I have had cappings stored in plastic pretzel containers with a screw lid (no seal) in my basement for 3 years with no fermentation. If it stays there for five years there will be no fermentation. The Mohawk Valley is a high moisture area in the state of NY. There are many golf courses in the area that do not irrigate and the grass stays green and lush right through August.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I have had cappings stored in plastic pretzel containers with a screw lid ...


You don't think that a "screw lid" qualifies as a 'tight seal'? :scratch: :s


Here is Jim's original comment from post #12 ...



Jim Brewster said:


> If it is not tightly sealed it absorbs water from the air, and can certainly ferment this way in all but the driest climates.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Jim a hygroscopic material will give up moisture otherwise you or the bees would never be able to dry it.


Ah Ace, You got that completely backwards. Hygroscopic means the material absorbs moisture from the atmosphere.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Ah Ace, You got that completely backwards. Hygroscopic means the material absorbs moisture from the atmosphere.


Hygroscopic means it will attract the water molecule unless there is a greater force to repel it, that being a dry condition. I spent 23 years of my life pulling water out of a hygroscopic material. A simple dihumidifier will pull water out of honey. Add a little heat and I bet you could get honey as dry and hard as a brick. Do you think the bees suck the water out of honey with their lips? No, they create an atmosphere that is conducive to removing water and dry it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Do you think the bees suck the water out of honey with their lips?



Ace, bees dry *nectar*. Once they get it to an appropriate moisture level, then they cap it and _then _we call it honey.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

honey is hygroscopic meaning it pulls moisture from the air. this is why it it keeps burns moist when applied. also the reason some southern honey has a higher moisture content. honey does not give off moisture. it sucks it in. google honey hygroscopic properties. as usual ace is wrong again.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

> The wax was melted (and honey burned) at low temps. over 2-3 days


If you sit the cappings on a screen for 2-3 days, most of the honey should drain off, shouldn't it?


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

kaizen said:


> guess its pointless as this is from2005......why do they allow that??? but op states 3 years cappings. in that timeframe I doubt it wont' get some natural spores. anyone storing cappings for 3 years probably isn't the most sanitary storage. agree shorter time no problem. but 3 years uh huh


The reason honey can't spoil is because at less than 18% water, bacteria and moulds can't live in it. In addition, it contains stuff like Oxalic acid and hydrogen peroxide that help preserve it. If it wasn't tightly sealed, however, it could absorb enough water to dilute it enough to allow fermentation.
The hygroscopic property of honey is the reason stuff can't live in it. The honey absorbs so much water that they can't survive and multiply.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Nabber86 Post #21
You should read and understand what Ace said in Post #14 before you go off on him. His post was perfectly understandable to me.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

gnor said:


> The hygroscopic property of honey is the reason stuff can't live in it. The honey absorbs so much water that they can't survive and multiply.


Hygroscopic is not a property that protects honey. As others have said in this thread, if honey is absorbs enough water from the air it can ferment and bacteria can grow in it.



gnor said:


> Nabber86 Post #21
> You should read and understand what Ace said in Post #14 before you go off on him. His post was perfectly understandable to me.


I believe that since you don't know what hygroscopic means either.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Nabber86 said:


> Hygroscopic is not a property that protects honey. As others have said in this thread, if honey is absorbs enough water from the air it can ferment and bacteria can grow in it.


Honey also absorbs water from any bacteria or spores that are in contact with it, making it impossible for them to reproduce. Of course it will ferment if it absorbs enough water. I'm talking about proper honey here.





> I believe that since you don't know what hygroscopic means either.


Of course I know what hygroscopic means. Read and understand what I said. It's you that's not comprehending this thread.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

gnor said:


> Honey also absorbs water from any bacteria or spores that are in contact with it, making it impossible for them to reproduce.


Careful that you don't get the cart before the horse!  "Impossible for them to reproduce"? :s

From the paper I linked back in post #17 ...



> Many species of bacteria are completely inhibited if water activity is in the range of 0.94 to 0.99. These values correspond to solutions of a typical honey (aw of 0.6 undiluted) of concentrations from 12% down to 2%(v/v). On the other hand, [HIGHLIGHT]some species have their maximum rate of growth when the (aw) is 0.99, so inhibition by the osmotic (water drawing) effect of dilute solutions of honey obviously depends on the species of bacteria.[/HIGHLIGHT]
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269714/


Not _all _bacteria are inhibited by low levels of water in honey.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

gnor said:


> Honey also absorbs water from any bacteria or spores that are in contact with it, making it impossible for them to reproduce..


But that is not due to honey being hygroscopic. That is what you and Ace are getting wrong.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Careful that you don't get the cart before the horse!  "Impossible for them to reproduce"? :s
> 
> From the paper I linked back in post #17 ...
> 
> ...


Graham, read a bit more carefully (which is difficult with this paper...lots of typos and lots of unrelated info pooled together).

In the passage you quote above, the key is that they are talking about dilute solutions of honey.

On the few pages previous to this passage, you will see the text talks about only spores surviving in honey.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Nabber86 said:


> But that is not due to honey being hygroscopic. That is what you and Ace are getting wrong.


The dessication of microbes in honey is exactly because it is hygroscopic.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

deknow said:


> The dessication of microbes in honey is exactly because it is hygroscopic.


:no:

Osmosis is the word you are looking for. From the paper the Radar cited: 

High antimicrobial activity is as a result of osmotic effect, acidity, hydrogen peroxide and phytochemical factors8.

The osmotic effect of honey has been described17. Honey is a supersaturated solution of sugars, 84% being a mixture of fructose and glucose. The strong interaction of these sugar molecules will leave very few of the water molecules available for microorganisms. The free water is measured as the water activity (aw). Mean values for honey have been reported, from 0.562 to 0.62.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm not sure what you are wagging your finger at.

Honey is hygroscopic (a property).

Because it is *hygroscopic*, it pulls moisture through the cell membraines of microbes (or a wound on a human for that matter)....that is a process called *osmosis* (a specific case of diffusion involving water)...

The imbalance (or moisture) between the honey (low) and the microbe (high) causes *osmitic pressure* which causes *osmitic activity* (the net migration of of water molocules across a membrane from an area of high concentration to an area low concentration).

The *osmotic activity* pulls moisture from the microbes and *desicates* them (dries them out)..a result (effect) of the *osmitic activity*.

But please note that the paper that was cited is a bit odd...it is a survey (looking at other research), there are a lot of typos, and I noticed some really weird stuff regarding microbes elswhere in the paper. As it is a survey it would probably be better to use it to lookup their sources rather than take it as gospel.

The part that was cited regarding microbial growth was of diluted honey with a 'water activity' of about .99, whereas honey full strength has a water activity of about .6.



Nabber86 said:


> :no:
> 
> Osmosis is the word you are looking for. From the paper the Radar cited:
> 
> ...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I had to spenda few minutes to figure this out, so I thought I'd try to help others understand the part of the study quoted above.


> Many species of bacteria are completely inhibited if water activity is in the range of 0.94 to 0.99. These values correspond to solutions of a typical honey (aw of 0.6 undiluted) of concentrations from 12% down to 2%(v/v).


The above numbers boil down to this....Water activity (the amount of water available for microbes to use) ranges from 0 (completely dry) to 1 (completely wet).

.94-.99 refers to 94-95% water in a solution with honey.
.6 is what they report honey (undiluted) at....I have some suspicion that this may be high (there is confusion in the literature between date honey and honey).
This .94-.99 aw range is honey diluted with water from 12% to 2% concentrations.





> On the other hand, some species have their maximum rate of growth when the (aw) is 0.99, so inhibition by the osmotic (water drawing) effect of* dilute solutions of honey* obviously depends on the species of bacteria.


The above says that some bacteria grow in a 2% of honey in water. I don't find that surprising...a 2% honey solution has no where near the osmotic pressure that undiluted honey has.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...and from the conclusion of that paper:


> Non-spore forming bacteria ie vegetative forms are not normally present in honey because they cannot survive. Ten species of non-spore forming intestinal bacteria inoculated into pure honey survived only a few hours21. It is possible therefore to assert that the microorganisms found in honey undergo gradual extinction in honey due to its inhibitory properties as highlighted earlier in this discourse. It is also recognized that spores are dormant forms of certain microorganisms. The fact that spores cannot transit into vegetative forms and still remain alive in honey persistently is supportive of the inhibitory role of honey on microorganisms.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

deknow said:


> Because it is *hygroscopic*, it pulls moisture through the cell membraines of microbes (or a wound on a human for that matter)....that is a process called *osmosis* (a specific case of diffusion involving water)...
> 
> The imbalance (or moisture) between the honey (low) and the microbe (high) causes *osmitic pressure* which causes *osmitic activity* (the net migration of of water molocules across a membrane from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration.


The first paragraph is incorrect. Osmosis is not caused by hygroscopic conditions of a material. You can have the classic high school experiment of two salt solutions of different concentrations sepperated by a membrane. Water will move from the solution with the lower concentration of salt to the solution with the higher concentration of salt until equalibrium is established. If you add more salt to either solution, osmatic pressure will be reestablished and water will move back into the solution that you just added more salt to. This will work with any solutions regardless of being hygroscopic or not.

Osmosis goes both ways, hygroscopic conditions are a one-way street (well unless you put a lot of energy into the saturated hygroscopic material; such as putting your silica packs into the oven to reactivate them). 

You nailed it on the head with the second paragraph. Osmotic pressure moves water from the bacteria to the honey solution. That is exactly what is happening, although I doubt the bacteria is dried to the level worthy of the term desiccation. At some point when the water content in the bacteria equals that of the honey, equilibrium conditions occur and because of the lack of osmotic pressure, no more water can move across the cell membrane. In fact if the honey picks up enough water from the atmosphere (because it is hygroscopic), osmatic pressure would push water from the honey back into the bacteria. The bacteria also do not dry out, the water content is reduced to the point that the bacteria die. Because of osmotic pressure, or lack thereof when equalibrium is reached, the water content of the bacteria can only go as low as the water content of the honey.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Strictly speaking you are correct. In this case however, both the hygroscopic property of honey is caused by its low moisture content...which is the same thing that produces negative osmotic pressure when the honey is in contact with microbes.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

deknow said:


> Strictly speaking you are correct. In this case however, both the hygroscopic property of honey is caused by its low moisture content...which is the same thing that produces negative osmotic pressure when the honey is in contact with microbes.



Osmatic pressure is measured in units of atmospheres and is as based on the ideal gas law. See here: http://www.chemteam.info/Solutions/Osmosis-Equation.html

If you look at the equation (and they do a really good job of explaining it), the only thing that is specific to honey is molarity (moles of sugar per liter of water). Well that and the van't Hoff factor which is empirically derived. There is no term that accounts for the hygroscope conditions in the equation. I don't think that you can even define hygroscopicity (?) in terms of negative pressure. As far as I know it has no units, and can't be subtracted from anything.

Of the list of things that are hygroscopic, honey is probably near the bottom with many salts above that. So even if there was a way to calculate a "negative pressure" due to hygroscopy, it is going to be minuscule compared to the tens to hundreds atmospheres of osmotic pressure generated by common solutions.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

So basically... in a 'normal' environment in a home somewhere in North America, and at some time over a 3 year period, unsealed honey is likely to take on moisture and climb outside it's safe range, thus leading to fermentation... at some point over 3 years. IF the honey was sealed well enough to trap moisture and prevent it from entering the honey, then it should not ferment within the three years. Honey from the pyramids was found to be usable MANY years later... keeping in mind that the jars were sealed, and the environment there very dry.

And to the other points, I'd agree that within the 3 years, the cappings could have drained off and avoided the whole 'burnt honey' issue altogether, though I like MBs point to use it in candy, as that must be heated quite high anyway.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

DrJeseuss said:


> So basically... in a 'normal' environment in a home somewhere in North America, and at some time over a 3 year period, unsealed honey is likely to take on moisture and climb outside it's safe range, thus leading to fermentation... at some point over 3 years.


It doesn't do it in my home.


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