# OA glycerine mix experiment



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi, All!

After reading the glycerine and OA mixture experiment I would like
to try to see if I can get rid of the last drop of the mites in my hives.
My homemade oav gadget has cut down the free running mite population to
6 per 1000 (bees on a frame.) Now I like to see if the mixture would take out
the remaining free running mites. Got my ingredients already and ready for the
mixture. The experimental recommendation is 600g per 250 ml solution. I think 
maybe too much OA powder. But not knowing the exact OA to glycerine ratio to use maybe I
should cut down the amount of OA to 300g per 200 ml solution. How do I make a 
comparison to see which one is effective without any prior experience/experiment to go by?
All constructive though welcome!


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## CrMax (Aug 23, 2015)

I think the recommended mix 600 grams to 1 liter (1000 ml.) or aprox 34 ounces, if you want to cut the ratio in half it wold be 300 grams per liter. Somewhere i read they didn't have very good results at 400 grams per liter..


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm thinking along the line of 300g per half liter or 17 oz.
Then cut down to 150 g per quarter liter or 8.5 oz. One small jar
of the oa powder should work for this purpose. After all it is just
an experiment until I can find out the effective ratio.


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## CrMax (Aug 23, 2015)

Keep in touch I am also going to experiment with it, I have the strips cut ready to go when i get time. I am going to put mine in a vacuum chamber to infuse the strips. Think i will do full strength 3/4 and half. and only use the strips and see what effect just the strips have on mites.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, for sure the strips will kill the mites. That already confirmed by
others before us. The question is what ratio to use to bring it to the 
LD lethal dosage on the mites. This way the bees are fine and not waste a lot of the
resource. I plan to do it differently. Use the half strength first and then gradually
raised the ratio until the desire outcome has reached. Also do document your findings
so that we can compare notes. Too bad my mite levels are diminishing now because I
had experimented on them using my homemade oav gadget before. Next, I need to find the mite
infested colonies to test these strips out. The Russian elderly beekeeper comes to mind.


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## newred (Sep 28, 2014)

do you have any starting advice. Temperature range, strip size, how long to leave in hive, how many strips per hive, what kind of cardboard single ply or corrugated? I am really interested in testing these out also. Do you think type of glycerin matters as long as its pure?


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## CrMax (Aug 23, 2015)

Single ply cardboard said to use 1.5mm I could only find it 1.mm 1inch wide 13.7 inch long.
I would use veg. glycerin. some are leaving the strips in for 4 months? Heat glycerin to 149 deg F. stir in OA. mix until OA dissolves. let mix come to room temp. Soak strips 24 hours then allow to drain 8 hrs.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

How big of strips is my question.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

If I had an OAV gadget I wouldn't even think about using another method!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

That is right, Brad Bee!
Just for an update. I only found 2 mites on a hive check today after they emerged.
Either it was the homemade oav gadget, the alogrooming, or the hygienic
bees that got the mites under control. It might be the brood break too. I don't
know for sure which factor contributed to the low mite count now. 
Frustrated that I cannot treat with oav anymore since late Jan. of this year. What else
is there to treat when no more mites and no more DWV on every hatch? It was a nice
relief seeing so many new young bees that are healthy at last. Instantly you can see the
hive population perked up a bit. 
I'm going to seek out the local old Russian guy who's hives are plaque with the mites. He once asked me if not
treat with amitraz then with what? Now I have the answer for him using my gadget under the
hive. The last of the 10% improvement on my oav gadget I already got my answer to. 
Thanks to one of the coworkers from the lab. It is now the last round of improvement trying to carry out my mite experiment. Too bad I don't need to do the glycerine experiment anymore. The new bee lab VSH queen is schedule to arrive on June 2nd.
Going to make some graft and drones on this experiment. So in half a year, I have accomplished incorporating
the allogrooming behaviors, the hygienic genetics and now vsh into all of my colonies. My next step is to put
some virgin nuc hives at the farm to see what wild genetics are there on the 7 acres acorn forest. If there is
none then I will put up some swarms along with the mites if possible into this area hoping for some survival bees. 
I also might put a few Caucasian bees colonies there to keep it as an isolated yard if no other bees are around.
Going to be a lots of fun going feral bee hunting or maybe a few swarm traps too. What have you accomplish in
improving for your bees? If not now, do you have a plan to in the future?


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Few things to keep in mind. When heating the solution, you boil off the formic acid. Wear a respirator and eye protection. The strips you want to buy are found in Home depot or lowes. They are cardboard drywall shims.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

RAK said:


> They are cardboard drywall shims.


Thank you!

Anyone know if you can keep this mixture bottled up for future use? I'd be making a significantly smaller batch than Randy's recipe if if I have some left does it keep?

How long do you leave the strips in for one brood cycle? Does he mean laying across all the top bars or does he mean drooped down in between the frames? How long do you cut the strips? 

Is there a good source for all this information. I hadn't really heard of it until I read about it in RO's recent "late summer treatment" article in ABJ this month.


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## CrMax (Aug 23, 2015)

Read somewhere 40 days for the strips to be in brood box. drape strips over the frame and down between frames, length would be determined by what frame your using. 

I haven't seen anything about shelf life after being mixed. I also haven't been able to find any one place with extensive info. I think it pretty much in experimental stage? Most info. I have found is from Argentina 

RAK seems to have experience with them and is working with a chemist perfecting them?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm reading through some of this right now, might be helpful:
http://teca.fao.org/discussion/varroa-jacobsoni-natural-methods-fight-it


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It would be an interesting experiment on the overwinter hives.
At least I think if it works then the mites will be reduced significantly.
Then the Spring build up would be grand indeed.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> It would be an interesting experiment on the overwinter hives.


The link above talks about NOT doing it overwinter because the bees try to suck water out of the strips when applied and die. There's pretty complete instructions at the fao.org link above.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

That is too bad then.
Have to resort to the oav treatment before the winter sets in.
Maybe to put in these strips around early Autumn and early Spring time.
I don't know about the next hatch cycle but right now I don't see that many mites
in my hives anymore. Somehow they have clean up on the mites.
Still a mystery to me. I was expecting a high mite count so that I can do my
oav experiment. Somehow they have became high hygienic and uncapped the
mite infected broods too. The only difference I made to the hive floor was to raised
the hive box from the bottom board 1" more. Before it was half an inch. This is so that
I can treat with the oav without burning up the bees at the bottom of the frames. Maybe the
mites have fallen from the allogrooming that they got stuck on the uneven composite particle bottom board.
I don't use the smooth bottom board. They're all from the laminated particle chip boards.


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## GusK (Jan 24, 2013)

CrMax said:


> I haven't seen anything about shelf life after being mixed. I also haven't been able to find any one place with extensive info. I think it pretty much in experimental stage? Most info. I have found is from Argentina


I would be interested in the shelf life as well. I experimented with this a few months ago, but stopped the experiment as my varroa levels were way too high and went with another treatment instead. No bee kill was observed with the oxalic strips.

Nonetheless, I kept the mixture in a jar, and then put it in the refrigerator. The oxalic re-crystalized - it looked like slush, but when I put the jar in a hot pot of water, it quickly dissolved again. I still have that jar.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Does anyone know how this method works? Is it a contact method where the bees have to brush against the strips? Does it "off gas"? If so how's that possible at standard hive temperatures? I've got everything but the cardboard, I think I'll try it on some nucs.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I'm glad you asked JW; I was wondering too. Thought it could be ingesting the OA as they chew up the strip.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

crofter said:


> I'm glad you asked JW; I was wondering too. Thought it could be ingesting the OA as they chew up the strip.


What I read about it in Randy Olivers ABJ article it didn't sound like the bees touched the strip much at all. In fact, he cautioned several times that the strips needed to be removed by the beekeeper in a timely fashion so as not to possibly build up a resistance like what happened with Amitraz (I think that's the right one?) and coumaphos.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Why resistance with this method of intake when there is at least allegedly no resistance developing in twenty or so years with sublimed OA treatments?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

crofter said:


> Why resistance with this method of intake when there is at least allegedly no resistance developing in twenty or so years with sublimed OA treatments?


No idea, Frank. But Randy stressed it at least twice probably three times in his article. And it wasn't really that big of a part in his article. His numbers said 90% kill with the cardboard strips prepared as the picture I attached earlier states.

If it works that well, it absolutely blows the freaking doors off of vaporization so far as I'm concerned. Pop these in and take them off one brood cycle later...? Sign me up.


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## CrMax (Aug 23, 2015)

From article everyone seems to be getting info from.. It is thought it is from contact with strips.. the bees also chew the paper still containing OA and carrying it out the hive. This would also play in OA through the hive. 

(It seems also that it work by contact. The bees begin to gnaw the strips until they are removed from the hive. Then if population and brood is high the bees will removed the strips in less than two month. - See more at: http://teca.fao.org/discussion/varroa-jacobsoni-natural-methods-fight-it?page=1#sthash.QmC0kFqh.dpuf}


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## CrMax (Aug 23, 2015)

RAK said:


> Few things to keep in mind. When heating the solution, you boil off the formic acid. Wear a respirator and eye protection. The strips you want to buy are found in Home depot or lowes. They are cardboard drywall shims.


Thanks RAK 
Picked the strips up today at Menards. My Lowe's and Home depot are special order only? I understand the safety concerns when playing with any acid!! But do you really think this will give off formic acid fumes since you are only heating the OA to 150 F.. I know glycerin would have a lower boiling point because it is
alcohol based but wouldn't you have to get the OA hot enough to break down before it gave off formic acid?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I used the hops salts cardboard strips a number of years ago and the bees chewed up much of it. The cell walls behind (underneath?) the strip got chewed down almost to the mid rib (wax foundation) and it was next season before the bees reused that area again. Have not heard anything mentioned about this effect with the OA in glycerine concoction. I switched to bulk liquid formic acid for a year and then to OA vapor with good results but maybe this indeed is a "better mouse trap"!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Crofter, I believe RO mentioned them not using the areas near the strip.


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## Bob J (Feb 25, 2013)

I wonder how long the strips are effective? I have observed that OAV seems to work for 3 days or so by monitoring the daily mite fall during August when there is still a lot of emerging brood (and mites).... Are there any similar observations for this treatment method?


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## CrMax (Aug 23, 2015)

No experience yet but from what i have read the strips are effective as long as they are in the hive. The bees come in contact with the impregnated strips and chew on them taking them out of the hive. Seen pictures of the strips after 21 days and maybe half had been removed. I will be placing strips in a large hive this weekend to experiment with.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

I think Randy's point is that a pest that is exposed to a pesticide can build up resistance. We have a limited number of tools to fight Varroa. OA being a very good one. If Varroa was to become resistant, that tool is gone. Once it happens- it's too late. So let's not take the chance of resistance.


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## CrMax (Aug 23, 2015)

Think its a little late for that! The strips are already being manufactured in Argentina and I am sure there are more than a couple people in the process here.. UK, Italy and prob. others.

Whats the difference of using a vaporizer and putting OA in the hive or cardboard strips impregnated with OA or sugar water with OA sprayed or dripped in the hive?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I think the only difference is the time aspect of it. Longer exposure over time at lower dosage.
Dripped and oav is a one time quick treatment where as the
cardboard strips are over months inside. This is longer treatment leaving them inside
the hive than any other oa method. The mites might be able to adapt and
become resistant over time while exposing to a lower dosage of the oa. It is just like
taking antibiotics prescribed by your doctor. The treatment is supposed to be for 10 days on
it but most people after 3 days stop taking it once they get better. The result is a resistant
developed by these virus, etc. There is already a case in the states that the most effective
antibiotic against the virus had its resistant developed. So what else can we use later on either
on the bees or for us? This is only my view point so take it as is!


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