# received old worn outdated queens in mail today



## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Wanted to requeen 2 hives, today I receive 2 dead outdated queens in the mail
one painted first with green, most chewed off, and then repainted pink,red
the 2nd also now dead painted yellow.

we talked for about an hour
was assured fat new laying Survivors
all I received was 2 skinny dried dead queens with dead attendants

Jeff, of ASH
What you did was over the top, and I want you to know I'm pissed.

Who sells a 4yr old and 2yr old worn out queen?












Who here paints 2016 green red









who paints ther 2016 queens yellow










This was just plain wrong.

My 8yr is crying so hard, he's never cried like this. 
We were both excited.
They were for his 4H hives

Thanks Allot Dude.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

contact them and ask what they are going to do about it. If you paid with credit card go to your bank that issued the card or call them and dispute the charge. It will cost them 12 to 15 for the backcharge.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

That's fraud. Who is ASH?


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Dude won't answer emails or his phone.
Left messages

Already started CC charge back fraud .

2 for the swarm lure.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

cervus said:


> That's fraud. Who is ASH?


Always Summer Herb


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Dude thinks I don't know what's up.

He did this deliberately just to make $90US


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

All our hive are either from swarms, cutouts, and that free one I got in Phoenix.

The Phoenix Queen is a layer

The Queen from Mr Palmer has 3 full frames of brood.

I wanted to requeen the last cutout and swam to go into winter
Hoping to teach my boy about bees.

Not a good lesson to start off.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

Was he just using any old random color he happened to have handy?


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## manpunchingbear (Jun 26, 2015)

DavidZ said:


> Always Summer Herb


I live near Jeff and purchased a queen from him in 2015 and a nuc this year. I think he does not adhere to the paint color standards because my queens were the wrong color both times.

The nuc I bought from him this summer is doing well. I was not aware that he would ship from Western Pennsylvania to Arizona. In my dealings with him, we always met in person.

Were you specifically after some Purdue Ankle Biters that are not available from a source closer to you?

Generally speaking, I will not purchase bees that need to be shipped through the mail but prefer to take delivery "in person" for the benefit of inspection. After a bad experience in 2014 with non-local bees (packages from Georgia that were **** hostile), I keep my eyes open for locally available over-wintered bees. 

Sorry to hear you had problems, good luck!


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

with chewed off green and then pink, which is red faded
I don't think so.


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

manpunchingbear said:


> I think he does not adhere to the paint color standards because my queens were the wrong color both times.


That speaks volumes right there.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

a experienced seller of Queens should not or would not use incorrect colours to sell supposedly New Fat Layers, and not mite biters. I wanted his Buckfast survivors.

We're working on building up buckfast carni locals here in the mountains.
how else do you get decent genetics growing.

no worries. lesson learned.

I read not to buy from other sources, but had a great experience with Mr Palamer. Thinking I'd find another source for Northern Queens.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I can see a queen breeder using multiple color "party dots" to track a cross-breeding or lineage system. There are times when you might want to visually identify the line of a caged queen before shipping. I don't plan to sell queens, but might exchange a few in our club. For that it might be worth marking them with a special color based on the original good queen (our best one was provided to us by our mentor, marked with a lavender dot per group discussion). But selling such queens ought to come with an explanation. I can see us providing a queen with a lavender and a yellow dot to show the Lavender Lady's line, bred in 2017, and maybe pink and yellow for a bee bred from Georgie, a cousin bought straight from the breeder. By doing so I could make sure a recipient got one of each for diversity. 

For an instrumentally inseminated queen of special genetics, I believe many breeders do use party dots, assuming they don't go for number tags.

Selling old queens, and dead queens? Chewed off or faded dots? Not good.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Don't know this ASH outfit and have never heard of them.

I sell queens and don't use the color standard, never have. But I let my customers know what the color means
in my apiary.
You need to hear what this ASH guy has to say about the colors and the DOA queens.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I was just looking at an old thread here, dated 2006. Several beeks reported using non-standard colors. One used blaze orange because his old eyes could spot them better. Another was red-green color blind and used something else instead of red. Michael Bush commented on a beekeeper who had used radium paint so he could find the queen with a Geiger counter. I think another used metallic model paint and could pick up the queen with a magnet.

For your own use, the main thing you need to know is that it is the marked queen, and not a replacement. Hopefully your own recordkeeping is good enough to track the queen's age.

The radium idea prompted me to look up the status of RFID tags. Hitachi has them down in the sub-mm range, smaller than a grain of salt. I can picture tracking queen movement inside the hive with these for fancy researchers. Although tracking the comings and goings of individual bees might be interesting for research as well.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

If your received them today you have not given him time to respond and make things right. I can tell your upset, but, their is no reason to believe at this time he has done anything wrong. Bees die. It is always a mistake to vent in public without the facts. Settle down and give him a chance to make things right. Sorry and best of luck.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I think you're jumping the gun a little on the paint. A lot of people don't adhere to the color standards. How were the queens sent? UPS or USPS? Typically they're insured for the value and you claim it.


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## manpunchingbear (Jun 26, 2015)

DavidZ said:


> a experienced seller of Queens should not or would not use incorrect colours to sell supposedly New Fat Layers, and not mite biters. I wanted his Buckfast survivors.
> 
> We're working on building up buckfast carni locals here in the mountains.
> how else do you get decent genetics growing.


That sock puppet comment, were you directing that toward me? Or someone else? 

I could be in the minority, but I would not want to deal with bees "in shipment" for more than 24 hours as a beekeeper. How many days in transit were the queens you ordered from him and did your contract include a "live on delivery" guarantee ? Were they delivered today? I can tell you that on Thursdays, he has a table at the farmer's market in downtown Pittsburgh and is probably a day or two behind in getting back to people.

Did you make your expectations known to him that you wanted your queens 1) In transit for no more than 24 hours 2) Live upon arrival, 3) accurately marked per International Queen Marking Color Code standards, and 4) survivor Buckfast lineage before you paid for the order?

Aside from your transaction issue here, how does a person even know the bee they're receiving is Buckfast ? Are there scientific tests to identify the Buckfast traits or characteristics? Or do you base it on the word of the seller and their public image / reputation?


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## birddog (May 10, 2016)

I have to ask how much did he charge for these queens in addition how much did you pay for shipping and what shipping service was agreed opon if any


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

There are color standards for a reason. Standard being the operative term. One would expect a vendor to adhere to the standard. There are better ways to track lineage and inventory without causing needless confusion.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

cervus said:


> There are color standards for a reason. Standard being the operative term. One would expect a vendor to adhere to the standard. There are better ways to track lineage and inventory without causing needless confusion.


Really. What system do you use? 

Sometimes I don't mark my queens, what do you think of that?


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> Really. What system do you use?
> 
> Sometimes I don't mark my queens, what do you think of that?


I don't sell queens, so I have no system. As far, as what I think about you not marking queens...


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

cervus said:


> I don't sell queens, so I have no system. As far, as what I think about you not marking queens..


No workable system of your own, probably never raised any queens, but you say there are better ways to track queens than the ways used by others.
Hilarious.
Thanks for the laugh.


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## ShrekVa (Jan 13, 2011)

I think you should give the man at least a day to respond to you before losing your temper and blasting him on a forum like this. I would be cautious in selling to someone with a history of posting up issues on beesource before giving the seller a chance to correct it. I'm sorry your boy got upset but its still a good lesson to him on queens, they die, often. I hope your seller makes it right with you, please don't take for granted what you can do to someones reputation with a few posts, I'm just saying maybe not last resort but not first or second.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Deep breaths, phone calls, and a little time to let the chips fall for everyone!


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> Deep breaths, phone calls, and a little time to let the chips fall for everyone!


Good advice. I feel for you. It's hard; it's frustrating; it happens.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Shipping that far would have cost $35 overnight USPS. I have the impression these queens were shipped 3 day. Adding it up, probably $35 per queen and $20 to ship.

With that said, I received a shipment several years ago that had 9 out of 10 dead in the box. I called and reported the loss, filed a claim at the post office, and a day later had another shipment of live queens in hand.

I have in the past marked queens with whatever color I had available. I rarely keep a queen more than 2 years and they were for my personal use so not an issue of selling them mis-marked.

Best to contact the seller and see what he will do before jumping the gun here.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

We are just people and we do make mistakes.
All you can do is to contact the seller and try to make things right.
If he's a side-liner then give him more time to correct things. Then you can say
to your boy see....these are the replacement for the dead ones. The weather got to them during
shipment. As in life there is always the potential risk involved. It is a gamble to ship queens perhaps
the postal worker put it under the hot sun or the hot car seat during a lunch break. Who knows!
A lesson learn here is to inspect the queen package first before showing it to your boy. Give him
an education for future reference. 
Even the commercial operation will make mistakes like sending the wrong type of queens or the bad queens from
time to time. Found out later that the assistant or shipper made the mistakes. In the division of labor many mistakes
can be made. So who catch the wrong color queen for my queen package? It was Bobby!


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

As to the colors. I'd be impressed with any breeder that routinely had 4 year old queens...
Paint chipping - BeeWeaver bees have a tendency to chew at the paint, and I've had it mostly removed by attendants in the cage before I even got them installed.
While I believe queens offered for sale should be marked with standard colors, our local breeder RWeaver (not Bee Weaver) sends out thousands a year with non-standard colors - it threw me the first time I was helping a newbie requeen with them. 

When shipping queens, S happens - sometimes before shipping and sometimes in the hands of the postal service. Give them a chance to make it right.


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## dennis crutchfield (Aug 5, 2016)

I just bought a queen from him, and it was in great shape, we don't know who in between seller and buyer might of killed the bee's. I would not be too hasty to falsely accuse him.
He is just busy and will get back with you.. sometimes it will take a couple of days. but after that kind of rant and slander I would not deal with you or take a chance of dealing with you. this should of been done privately. tell the kid life is not fair, and get over it.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Quite often a child's reaction to things is highly influenced by a parent's reaction to it.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

cervus said:


> Was he just using any old random color he happened to have handy?


would you intentionally mark a queen as two years old?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Daniel Y said:


> would you intentionally mark a queen as two years old?


We just did. The Lavender Lady's lavender dot was all but worn away. Not having that color on hand, we re-marked her with the proper green for her age.

She's still the Lavender Lady, an laying down pretty brood like a fresh young queen. Fingers crossed that she does not know how old she is and keeps going.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

as it is, thanks for all the offers and recommendations people.

you are great beeks. Thank you

took a bit, like most of the day and then sitting for an hour while the little guy went to bed to reassure him all was ok.

I gave him the 2 strong hives to work.

my take on this...

the universe just said not to get so greedy splitting atm, and go into winter with what we have.

ash gave no apologies, or real offers of help.

not worried, it all comes back in the end some way or another.

Thanks again for the kindness from those out there.

Have a wonderful Day everyone.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

DavidZ said:


> Hoping to teach my boy about bees.
> 
> Not a good lesson to start off.


Actually, it's a fantastic lesson. Many things to learn from this experience, not the least of which, bees are live creatures that can easily die. Several other lessons here, but I'll let you figure them out, so that you and your son will remember what you've learned.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I use to track all my queens on paper per hive. Noting visual differences when applicable. When I began raising queens The only queen that were marked were those in which the buyer requested "Marked" queens. No matter what the current year color was they got marked with White. Unless I was out of white then they were marked with what ever was handy. Marking was done on request to aid the buyer in finding the queen once hived. I can track my queens just fine without marking them And a daughter of a superseded queen still has the same lineage. If one has a round of queens in mating nucs and takes them out to package and sell, odds are pretty good they are fairly young as the seller would know when he placed it in the hive. 

Funny how extremists feel the only way is their way!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

DanielD said:


> Quite often a child's reaction to things is highly influenced by a parent's reaction to it.


Some truth here for sure.



DavidZ said:


> ash gave no apologies, or real offers of help.


Did you even give him a chance? It's been less than 24 hours since you posted the thread and it's an hour into the next business day. If he replied back that's one thing, but I'm sure he doesn't like his name getting dragged through the mud. And if your communications with him were as rash as the post here was consider that there's another human being on the other side of the computer or phone who also didn't want you to get two dead queens in the mail yesterday. 

Seriously... deep breaths people. What's your kid going to do when he squishes five bees between boxes...? Take a step back and get some perspective here.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

yep, received emails back. I have no interest in his work, after some deep research yesterday.

one does not promise one thing then send another not wanted. nuff said

My boy works his own 8 frame, has killed many bees, taken stings, he actually tells me to watch out
he knows the deal, I don't need to go deep about his feelings,and I don't need to explain my child rearing

I have no clue why but Queen bees to him and his brother are special, they've watched every movie I've dand more on youtube with my permission and me reviewing it before they watch.

I was calm. and just so you know I never get emotional around my children.
maybe that's how many here are, or the way you may do/did things maybe not IDK you, but I approach things differently

he wasn't even around when I opened the box, he found them on my shop desk. 

He want to make his own Queens, and I told him we will do that next season as we increase, kid is smart, reads on a 5thgrade level, and has read the beek books
Yes I was off and I apologised, but it's my fault for thinking I could get late season queens an being greedy for more splits.

nuff said 

thanks jw as always I read your comments with respect


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## alwayssummer (Nov 5, 2009)

Wow- I leave the office on Wednesday, and come back on Friday to find this extensive discussion on my character. I left the farm for a day to sell some honey, got to pay the bills...

It is pretty simple really, I do not use standard colors because I am involved in a queen improvement program, we use artificially inseminated breeders to produce daughters with very specific genetic traits. Therefore, I use different colors for different stock lines, and queen mothers, and sometimes proven/measured characteristics. I work with the Purdue ankle biters, and other chewing/hygienic stock lines that we have discovered tucked away during my research. So, we color code. Simple.

I ship newly pulled queens, that are not banked, that have laid at least 3 frames of sealed brood, have a good retinue, and are gentle. I know my reputation rests on every bee that ship. I barely had a business day to respond to this "dead bee" situation. Bees die, and you respond accordingly.

As soon as, got the message, I tried to call him on the phone- no answer. Then I refunded 100% of all his money plus shipping. And wrote and email explaining all this.

I wanted to ship using EXPRESS, but customer did not want to pay the extra fee. Anything going out west/southwest takes longer, is hotter, and drier. It would have been money-well-spent on the express service which they guarantee LIVE delivery up to $500, or your money back. So they treat it better, than other mail. ( I noticed other shippers in forum saying they will only ship bees express, or not at all. very wise.)

I feel I did everything to respond to this situation in the highest ethical standards of business and beekeeping. And, THANK YOU to my loyal customers that defended my honor.

Kindest regards, JEFF BERTA
Always Summer Herbs
724.735.4700
[email protected]

PS all my info for full disclosure, I have nothing to hide.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Looking at the photos, these queens are hairy, which supports Jeff's assertion that they are not old queens.


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## ShrekVa (Jan 13, 2011)

If the customer declined to ship express I wouldn't have refunded, especially after his post. It might save you a headache if you don't offer any other shipping method.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Glad we got to hear the other side of the story, I knew the OP was a blowhard but gave him the benefit of the doubt, but now knowing the details.... Also, if you don't want ur kids crying, spend the $$ on express next time.


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

In all honesty, the only thing that has changed after this exchange is that I'm probably more likely to buy queens from him.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

jbeshearse said:


> Looking at the photos, these queens are hairy, which supports Jeff's assertion that they are not old queens.


Can you please explain this to a newbee?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> Can you please explain this to a newbee?


Young queens have visible hair on thorax and abdomen. Older queens don't as the hairs are
'worn' off due to grooming, constant egg laying in a cell, contact with other bees in the hive, etc.
Same holds true for worker bees, fuzzy younger ones, bald older ones.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

I did not decline express shipping, we talked about it 

I never said no

jeff sent me a payapl payment, his website does not list shipping or add any shipping cost.

I never declined, and I do apologise.

I never received any cell calls. It sits here on and waiting for all my business customers, 24/7/365

jrg13 poking at my boys is low down and mean nasty
as to blow hard maybe read your past posts over the years, talk about negative and nasty...


so call me a whatever

and he did refund


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

You brought up the heartbroken kids playing the sympathy card. You flew off of the handle publicly. You should go back
and read your posts, particularly the ones at the beginning of this thread.

Those of us that have trading in bees for a while understand the issue, both sides of it.
Let it rest.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

maybe get your website fixed so you have shipping choices available, and when talking to potential customers explain your method of colour codes.

not playing card, just telling the truth

again I do apologise and will over and over

yes I was angry

with a few pen holes poked in a box, maybe move to better shipping cartons or remove the poked cardboard so the box breathes

i have every right to be a little angry when other sent queens to me during the hot summer up here and they took longer to get here and they survived.


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## MiBees (Aug 9, 2016)

Looking at your bio (years experience) you should have known better to insist on next day UPS shipping especially givin the distance between you and supplier. Shipping is stressfull enough on bees. From what I have read in this thread being cheap has caused a lot of bad feelings and the repution of a honest beek.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

MiBees said:


> Looking at your bio (years experience) you should have known better to insist on next day UPS shipping especially givin the distance between you and supplier. Shipping is stressfull enough on bees. From what I have read in this thread being cheap has caused a lot of bad feelings and the repution of a honest beek.


MiBees before you call people names, and assume stuff read and...like I said I never denied express, paid for it in the past, and was ready to pay when I talked to Jeff.

His website does not include shipping cost, so I called and we talked. 

He sent the invoice, I paid. that's that.

back in the 80's I worked as a beeyard worker for my Mentor

they bred their own queens.

They were taken out by Varrora in the 90's

I quit bees till we bought a farm in Oregon where our barn has a old colony that has been there for at least 6yrs

all I wanted to do was inject new DNA here at the AZ outyard, and I will from Oregon next season

I apologise again.


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## MiBees (Aug 9, 2016)

DavidZ, no name calling implied. You should have made certain at the time of purchase/phone call with supplier shipping options and your choice of. You said you talked about express shipping but it sounds like you failed to verify that option, your bad not his. By reading his reply explanation this deal going south is not of his doing and sounds like he has gone the extra to make right a bad situation.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Yes I made the huge mistake of letting my anger get to me

I'll admit that everyday in every way

Yes I should ahve waited 24hrs before jumping the gun, but having been ripped off online over 20+ years having a online gem business, I blew up inside.

I just went through another person stealing several hundreds of dollars in gemstones, by sending back stuff asking for a refund, which I did not send to them.
the take and give scam.

I felt like it happened again, being taken advantage of due to my good nature, to close together these deals.
and yes I was so wrong to not keep the crap apart

my fault I bow.

and I am sorry for this.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

MiBees said:


> DavidZ, no name calling implied. You should have made certain at the time of purchase/phone call with supplier shipping options and your choice of. You said you talked about express shipping but it sounds like you failed to verify that option, your bad not his. By reading his reply explanation this deal going south is not of his doing and sounds like he has gone the extra to make right a bad situation.


No actually I did verify.

I'm sorry to have confused it all, but anger being what it is clouds reasoning. especially an old fart like me.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

just to clear it up more Jeff offered to replace etc after he refunded, and I refused.
Wanted to make good on his end. 

I was a s s hole in every way. 

no excuses here, I take the blame for not doing what I ask my customers to do in my written policies.

to much emotional crap going on.

done with this thread, bowing out to just take the blows

have at me now, I deserve it all.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

DanielD said:


> Quite often a child's reaction to things is highly influenced by a parent's reaction to it.


Been thinking the same thing...Don't miss a teachable moment with your child, they will be taller than you in no time and not into teachable moments then. Your children are always watching you cope with life, give them a good example.

Admin had good advice...Take a breath.


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## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

Ok, I've stayed out of this from the beginning, but I just have to say this. If you recognize you were an ass and it was wrong to bash this guy who did everything to make this right with you, why the heck is your original post still up for everyone to see. 

Don't you think you should remove it?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> have at me now, I deserve it all.


 No having at required. We all are human and have our failings.

Knowing the reason for the variant queen markings is helpful. I can see using variant markings to indicate queen provenance and feel it is more useful than using standard year based queen colors.


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Gumpy said:


> Ok, I've stayed out of this from the beginning, but I just have to say this. If you recognize you were an ass and it was wrong to bash this guy who did everything to make this right with you, why the heck is your original post still up for everyone to see.
> 
> Don't you think you should remove it?


I would if I dcould, we can't edit or remove a post after so many hours
it's up to the mods


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

I want to say I am Sorry for my reactions towards you Jeff Barta.
I let my emotions get to me in a moment of complete and utter misunderstanding on my side.
I assumed and made myself loose face in front of a community I respect.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

DavidZ said:


> I want to say I am Sorry for my reactions towards you Jeff Barta. I let my emotions get to me....


David, I respect a person who owns up to a mistake. I assumed too much and was too hard on you in my last post, I apologize in front of everyone. 

If you are lucky, Admin could delete this thread or remove it from public view. That would be best for all concerned. Regards


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## QueenlessDrone (Nov 30, 2015)

DavidZ said:


> I want to say I am Sorry for my reactions towards you Jeff Barta.
> I let my emotions get to me in a moment of complete and utter misunderstanding on my side.
> I assumed and made myself loose face in front of a community I respect.


I for one think that this post should just be deleted or locked, and everyone here can learn a lesson from it. Don't jump to conclusions before posting on a forum without knowing the circumstance...


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## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

This thread is fantastic. Love every comment....some more than others. It's amazing what social media has done to us.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I would not ask to delete this post. Let it fade over time here. It is a good lesson for all to learn from.
Looking at the standard of self-improvement this is a lesson about decision, confirmation, outcome and
feedback (emotional aspect of it.) It takes 2 bell to jungle, one will not even make a sound.
If both the seller and the buyer are clear about the transaction at the beginning before the payment is made then the outcome should be better.
If the seller is more clear on the website about the shipping process then the seller has nothing to complaint about afterward.
If the seller had poked more holes on the cage or use more ventilated box then the buyer will not think the heat got to the queens.
If the buyer did not include his prior gem business experience to label everyone the same recognizing that each individual of us have our own faults
and life obligation besides the bees then there will be less misunderstanding in this. To treat each individual with a benefit of a doubt especially in an open bee forum like this. 
If all the nitty gritty things that affect the buyer and seller have a way to improve for the future then life in general will be much better with a happier ending.
In beekeeping (since they are a community insects) like us cannot exist without one another, we should always take self-improvement in life as our life long teacher. So what as a seller can you improve on your queen bee business operation model? And what the buyer can do to improve on his gem business and inner emotional status as an individual and a good teacher model for his kids? We all need to do a deep self introspection to outline the deficiency and how we can improve upon ourselves for the next time. This one we all can learn from starting with communication and being more patience when things not going our way in life. Everyone here reading this post can learn something from this situation. At any chance we should never stop learning from one another only then we can self-improve a little. How we react to life situation and posting our view point once emotions are involved will impact one another in one way or another especially on our close tie bee community here.


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## QueenlessDrone (Nov 30, 2015)

beepro said:


> I would not ask to delete this post. Let it fade over time here. It is a good lesson for all to learn from.
> Looking at the standard of self-improvement this is a lesson about decision, confirmation, outcome and
> feedback (emotional aspect of it.) It takes 2 bell to jungle, one will not even make a sound.
> If both the seller and the buyer are clear about the transaction at the beginning before the payment is made then the outcome should be better.
> ...


That was deep and I agree. I retract my last post....the part that said this should be locked/deleted. I think beepro point is valid and think this post should remain open and let it fade over time. Maybe someone can learn from it.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Always, always, always - read what you have written before hitting the send button - once on the "net" there is no way to get it back. And a foot in the mouth - tastes like a foot. (done it myself a time or two)


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> Can you please explain this to a newbee?



Perhaps a visual for your learning. This newly mated queen was from early August.
She just started laying a couple of weeks ago. As you can see she still have all
her fuzzy hairs on top of her head. Her color has not change to a deeper one yet.
Sometimes the Cordovan queen will change her color deeper on the 2nd year.
One should always stride to learn no matter in a good or bad situation. Ones UP!


Young Cordovan queen:


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## Nugget Shooter (Mar 28, 2016)

Branman said:


> In all honesty, the only thing that has changed after this exchange is that I'm probably more likely to buy queens from him.


Yeah this above for me.... Like the way he handled things.

Best of luck to everyone and as a side note; I overnight anything alive, melt able, spoilable, or breakable mostly for the extra care taken with express packages when coming so far. Have friends that work for USPS and man they tell me some stories of rough treatment that is even sometimes intentional of priority mail and parcel post packages.


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## Ragun Gardener (Sep 22, 2016)

From someone without bees yet I vote to leave it up. I learned a few things in this post. I've been researching for a while and assumed that all queen sellers would mark the queen according to the chart I saw but I now understand that markings are a personal choice and mean different things to different beeks. The hairy queen is another that I forgot about. Don't order queens when it's too hot or too late, always pay for overnight shipping with insurance for live delivery. It's better to call the seller to get everything clear before ordering and the biggest thing to remember is "everyone is busy" so don't expect an instant response if you have a problem. 

Now I have a question. How should a queen seller handle this if the OP received the queens alive but died a few days later from bad handling or too long in shipping? Did the shipping company save the OP by delivering dead queens or does the seller have a policy for how long the queens live after delivery and after that it's the OP's fault they died?


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## MiBees (Aug 9, 2016)

I think industry wide if it arrives alive the seller and shipper are relieved of all obligations. Personally I make a point of calling the seller when I receive my queens or packages to let them know I received, what condition, and if there are any issues that I might be concerned about. When I do this I also write info on a calander and note the name of person I talked to. I have yet to have any issues and I think they appreciate the feedback.


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## dennis crutchfield (Aug 5, 2016)

alwayssummer said:


> Wow- I leave the office on Wednesday, and come back on Friday to find this extensive discussion on my character. I left the farm for a day to sell some honey, got to pay the bills...
> 
> It is pretty simple really, I do not use standard colors because I am involved in a queen improvement program, we use artificially inseminated breeders to produce daughters with very specific genetic traits. Therefore, I use different colors for different stock lines, and queen mothers, and sometimes proven/measured characteristics. I work with the Purdue ankle biters, and other chewing/hygienic stock lines that we have discovered tucked away during my research. So, we color code. Simple.
> 
> ...


jeff, I would not do business with him again, or any queen producer.. with such a slanderous post, its not worth it. I have had great results with always summer herbs queens.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

On another note I must commend Davidz. Although his initial reactions may have been hasty. He has apologized profusely. He has taken responsibility for his actions and acted accordingly. There are a great many on various forums including this one who not only will not admit when they are mistaken, or apologize for coming to a rash conclusion, but will defend it to the end. As one would now back the character of Jeff as a businessman. So should they back David as a honest decent person! Just saying.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

More deep breaths needed it appears. David owned it, good on him. 

Queen shipping is a crapshoot sometimes. Especially when not overnighting.


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## dennis crutchfield (Aug 5, 2016)

jbeshearse said:


> Looking at the photos, these queens are hairy, which supports Jeff's assertion that they are not old queens.


your right those were young queens in the photo.. its just a case of pure slander


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

An apology is a good start: I have seen many of them, but I wait a while to see if the experience has indeed had any behavior modification effect before faith is restored.


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## timduvall (Apr 11, 2014)

manpunchingbear said:


> Did you make your expectations known to him that you wanted your queens 2) Live upon arrival,
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> sorry...had to laugh at this one....if anyone would not like their queens live upon arrival, please PM me, I have queens for sale.


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> Don't know this ASH outfit and have never heard of them.
> 
> I sell queens and don't use the color standard, never have. But I let my customers know what the color means
> in my apiary.
> You need to hear what this ASH guy has to say about the colors and the DOA queens.



I think this is the real lesson here - if you're going to do something non-standard, it should be very clear to your customer what you're doing, and why you're doing it. This entire thing could have been prevented with a flyer in the box explaining the color code ASH is using. The color code would also allow the customer to quickly verify that they got what they paid for, which would increase buyer confidence. 

The customer reacted poorly, but that's par for the course when something goes wrong and the business does things that LOOK shady.


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## manpunchingbear (Jun 26, 2015)

timduvall said:


> sorry...had to laugh at this one....if anyone would not like their queens live upon arrival, please PM me, I have queens for sale.


Glad I brought you a good laugh for your Monday Working with vendors, contracts, and Service Level Agreements as part of my job, I can just visualize the People's Court episode where this vendor wins the decision:

Vendor:
"Well, your honor, when the consumer chose three day shipping for the Queen bee specimens from Pennsylvania to Arizona instead of Overnight shipping we determined the consumer was an Entomologist collecting illustrative specimens for the son's 4H project and feel that we successfully delivered the quality specimens ordered. In fact, we picked the best looking specimens we could find so that the consumer and son would have the best-looking project ever! Can you imagine the uproar if we shipped LIVE SPECIMENS to an insect collector? Now, had the consumer advised he wanted LIVE specimens... well... we would have determined that the consumer was an APIARIST and shipped our choicest LIVE Queen bees via overnight delivery. We aim to serve all of our customers."

With two youngsters in high school, sometimes they and their friends come trolling for dead bees for their school science projects.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Ragun Gardener said:


> ... How should a queen seller handle this if the OP received the queens alive but died a few days later from bad handling or too long in shipping? Did the shipping company save the OP by delivering dead queens or does the seller have a policy for how long the queens live after delivery and after that it's the OP's fault they died?


They don't "die a few days later from too long in shipping"... They arrived alive, after that, it's on the purchaser. If they went in the mail alive, it's on the shipper.

What we see time and time again are queen breeders going above and beyond in replacing or refunding when the fault is NOT theirs (comment is not limited to this thread or this forum). This goes well beyond good customer service - they are more often than not avoiding being bad mouthed. It becomes part of their business model = X% will be a loss - now like another business, this cost is passed onto the other consumers. 

I buy a lot of queens, 100+ over the course of a season - there's a reason the guys buying in quantity get a price break... I've had 2 queens this year that came into question. On One, the order was picked up at the breeders home by me and of the batch, 1 queen was DOA in the cage (all attendants alive) that same evening. I informed the breeder (letting him know something was amiss), he apologized and offered to replace the following day, I elected to have a replacement added to my next batch. The second queen, turned into a drone layer 10 weeks after installation, she had been laying wall to wall then suddenly every other cell in the pattern was drone. To confirm my diagnosis, I had sent him some photos, he offered to replace and I refused - I did NOT expect this to be something that could have been caught in a mating nuc and therefore felt replacement to be unjustified. On a bright note, I got great photos for an article with a queen that physically looks great, a good discussion and some theories on what happened (Note laying workers and a drone laying queen have distinctively different patterns).

So I see problems 1 - 2% of the time with queens where I feel a call to a breeder is warranted AND, I figure on a week or so to get it worked out.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

CrazyTalk said:


> I think this is the real lesson here - if you're going to do something non-standard, it should be very clear to your customer what you're doing, and why you're doing it. This entire thing could have been prevented with a flyer in the box explaining the color code ASH is using. The color code would also allow the customer to quickly verify that they got what they paid for, which would increase buyer confidence.
> 
> The customer reacted poorly, but that's par for the course when something goes wrong and the business does things that LOOK shady.


Using colors to designate lineage IS a common practice. 
A fuzzy queen is a young queen, a disreputable seller could easily mark old queens with the current international color standard - the color PROVES nothing.

As I said in an earlier post, the OP presumed the breeder had 4 year old queens available to ship - Wow, that would be impressive - and while I'm not looking for old queens, Id like to get 10 of her daughters...


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Wow! I have to say I saw this coming. No big surprise when you deal with the public all day long. By the way, I wouldn't hesitate to order from this queen producer also. It seems to me he went above and beyond.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Huge hat tip to *any* queen producer who takes the time to deal with the hobby keeper orders of 1 and 2 queens. Its an act of pure graciousness and kindness to take on those little orders.

The time spent shipping two queens (and dealing with the inevitable fallout) is a pure loss, time that could be more profitably spent on paying efforts.

Look at the labor demands and economics of small-scale queen rearing --
1) Knowledge of AI, and (non-fanciful) genetics are rare skills, and deserve compensation as professional credentialed expertise.
2) Maintaining a "bloodline" requires 12 months of care, and multiple (non-compensated) colonies
3) The North American queen-rearing season is 4 or 5 months long. The other 7 or 8 months have *no* income.
4) Grafting, nuc-mating, starter, finisher and drone colonies require substantial dedicated colonies, yards and equipment. These do not produce any other salable product, and indeed are often exhausted in a season, so are uncompensated with honey or pollination. Mated queen return to nuc yards has an optimum size, and must the yards need optimum feed and forage. These are a scarce resource.
5) Queen rearing requires an unconflicted schedule (as cell transfer and grafting are time limited). Queen rearing precludes breaks --- starting and stopping rearing is not realistic. This means alternative employment must be casual, during the breeding season.
6) Mating nucs are occupied for several weeks, so total monthly production is capped at nucs (and yards available). If you target production is 500/month, the producer needs at least 350 nucs in the field (all must be fed and tended). 
7) Catching queens (and to a lesser extent placing cells) has a maximum queens per day efficiency. This requires grafting and cell placement to follow a schedule related to the final catch efficiency. Weekly catches imply previous weekly grafts and weekly cell placements. Efficiency might be 150/catches per day (and that means looking in 200-250 nucs). 150 per week uses up 3 days (graft/place/catch) before any other maintenance or development task is taken on. 

At 500/month catches -- total *gross* income from a small scale queen rearing operation is capped at $40-50K per year in temperate climates. Net Income is fractional to the gross, and is less than a poverty wage for a 12 month commitment.

If the queen producer has a big customer that buys a big box of 100 queens each week, he can optimize his work to that regular income and the queens can be shipped when caught. If the customer base is hobby keeps with erratic unscheduled demand, the producer must bank the queens on speculation. Fabricating, stocking and shipping a single box of queens to a customer with a regular payment requires much less work than fabricating 50 boxes to unknown addresses and customer quality.

Queen rearing (especially small scale) has a seasonal conflict -- everyone wants queens in April (when the operation is just ramping up). Efficiency peaks in June, and the hobbyists have lost interest in August when the operation is humming along. The excellent demand for commercial level requeens and splits in August is the month when profit actually is made -- so queen producers think first of the customers that actually bring them money for the year.


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

ChuckReburn said:


> Using colors to designate lineage IS a common practice.
> A fuzzy queen is a young queen, a disreputable seller could easily mark old queens with the current international color standard - the color PROVES nothing.
> 
> As I said in an earlier post, the OP presumed the breeder had 4 year old queens available to ship - Wow, that would be impressive - and while I'm not looking for old queens, Id like to get 10 of her daughters...


The color proves nothing like labeling anything proves nothing - what it does is set customer expectation. If your product is mislabeled, or labeled in a way that confuses the customer, it's a problem. You can't assume that new beekeepers are going to be able to tell the difference between a young and old queen - what they can do is check the standards.


This is why we have standards - if you're going to deviate from said standard, you can't assume that the customer is going to pick up on that in the right way. 

Simply put, best practice here is to stick to the standard for marking, or to provide some sort of marking key.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I doubt the color of the dots had anything to do with the health of the queens. There is no question though that a partial perception of a situation can start the mind on a very creative construct of the whole. This thread is a good example.



_The waving of the tree limbs causes the wind to blow!_


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

One of my favorite quotes from a previous boss of mine is, "Not your fault. Still your problem."

Understanding this is the key to being a successful business manager or owner. Every day I can point to 1000 things that went wrong in my business that are "not my fault," but if I stop there, my business will fail. 

And as a hobbyist on the buying side of the "1-2 queens per order" I completely understand the hassle we put queen vendors through. But the steady trickle of orders for 1-2 or 5 queens is what helps keep the lights on for the vendor until the big commercial orders come it. I have the same issue in my electronics business. The small orders are a PITA, but we don't want to refuse them, because if you add them all up over the course of a year, they're significant. And sometimes the small customers become big customers later ;-)

If a vendor really doesn't want to deal with the backyard beeks like me, an easy way is to have a minimum order of 10 queens, or something like that. You can always over-ride that manually for a good commercial customer who needs an exception, but having that on your website will keep newbees like me away.


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## dennis crutchfield (Aug 5, 2016)

looks like apologies were offered... case closed...


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> Huge hat tip to *any* queen producer who takes the time to deal with the hobby keeper orders of 1 and 2 queens. ....
> 
> Queen rearing (especially small scale) has a seasonal conflict -- everyone wants queens in April (when the operation is just ramping up). Efficiency peaks in June, and the hobbyists have lost interest in August when the operation is humming along. The excellent demand for commercial level requeens and splits in August is the month when profit actually is made -- so queen producers think first of the customers that actually bring them money for the year.


Think every beekeeper with less than 5 years experience needs to read this a few times. Good post


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

dennis crutchfield said:


> looks like apologies were offered... case closed...





marshmasterpat said:


> Think every beekeeper with less than 5 years experience needs to read this a few times. Good post


Good posts here. 

I'm ready to move on.......


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> One of my favorite quotes from a previous boss of mine is, "Not your fault. Still your problem."
> 
> Understanding this is the key to being a successful business manager or owner. Every day I can point to 1000 things that went wrong in my business that are "not my fault," but if I stop there, my business will fail.
> 
> ...


This is an excellent post. I tell my staff, "We are going to make mistakes sometimes. We're human. It's how we make it right that keeps the customers. Even if it's their fault, don't argue, don't make excuses. Make it right." We have people order food that has cheese as an ingredient plainly listed on the menu. Then when the food arrives they are outraged. "I'm lactose intolerant!!" So we make them something with no dairy. They leave smiling and happy, that's the key.


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## Ragun Gardener (Sep 22, 2016)

You're a better man than me. I wouldn't just let that slide without asking if she mentioned that before ordering. MY take on this is if you have a problem with food...then it's your responsibility to inform the order taker before you finalize the order. 

Kudos to you.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> I have the same issue in my electronics business. The small orders are a PITA, but we don't want to refuse them, because if you add them all up over the course of a year, they're significant. And sometimes the small customers become big customers later ;-)
> 
> If a vendor really doesn't want to deal with the backyard beeks like me, an easy way is to have a minimum order of 10 queens, or something like that. You can always over-ride that manually for a good commercial customer who needs an exception, but having that on your website will keep newbees like me away.


It never ceases to amaze me that when I buy a handful of parts from Digikey, or some fasteners from McMaster Carr, that they treat me as if I were a major corporation. Of course, they're so automated now that it is just another computer transaction. But I remember dealing with Digikey when their catalog was a few pages of newsprint listing surplus junk ... I think I still have some slightly rusty 2N3055's on hand from my first $10 order. Remembering your roots help, but it also helps to get customers in the habit of coming to you, in case they grow up to be major corporations.

As for queens, we have a local supplier we've come to respect a lot. He's talked at local clubs, and spent a lot of time coming up with his locally adapted line. He only produces about 200 queens per year, and we bought our first directly from him this summer. We have had a daughter of one of his, given to us, for three summers. The old girl is outstanding. To avoid shipping stress, we picked our new queen up in person. For his $35, he talked with us for about an hour, and we learned a lot. He's not going to get rich with this business model. He does seem to love it, and love sharing the love. I'd tell you who he is but he doesn't advertise, and sells all the queens he produces ... you have to get on his list six months ahead of time.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

I recently called the guy who supplies 300 to 500 Nucs every year to our association, large establishment, to inquire about ultra bee dry pollen (about $30 bucks), left a message on Saturday (they are closed through Sunday). Monday afternoon I get a call, personally from the owner of the establishment confirming that he has it in stock and I can come pick it up. 

He could have asked any of his employees to call me for this small amount purchase, but he did on his own. THATs the one I want to do business with. 

Love that quote from IAmTheWaterbug, "Not your fault. Still your problem.". A real gem to remember in business. Kudos if one ignores it and still makes it through in business.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

CrazyTalk said:


> The color proves nothing like labeling anything proves nothing - what it does is set customer expectation. If your product is mislabeled, or labeled in a way that confuses the customer, it's a problem. You can't assume that new beekeepers are going to be able to tell the difference between a young and old queen - what they can do is check the standards.
> 
> 
> This is why we have standards - if you're going to deviate from said standard, you can't assume that the customer is going to pick up on that in the right way.
> ...


 Here in lies the problem Color coding genetics was a standard Long before color coding year of production. So what would constitute the standard? Personal Need? the seller? the Buyer?


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

Tenbears said:


> Here in lies the problem Color coding genetics was a standard Long before color coding year of production. So what would constitute the standard? Personal Need? the seller? the Buyer?


There's no standard for color coding genetics that I'm aware of (or, can you point me to what specific colors mean?). 


When buyers buy marked queens, they expect the queens to be marked by year - that's what the vast majority of the industry is using. If you're not going to do that - you should make it clear to the buyer what your markings mean.

This is pretty simple - if you're a business owner, and your customers are confused about what they're getting from you - that's a problem, and a good place to improve. As IamWaterbug said - not your fault, still your problem.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

CrazyTalk said:


> There's no standard for color coding genetics that I'm aware of (or, can you point me to what specific colors mean?).
> 
> 
> When buyers buy marked queens, they expect the queens to be marked by year - that's what the vast majority of the industry is using. If you're not going to do that - you should make it clear to the buyer what your markings mean.
> ...


This is becoming crazy talk.
If you don't like how some mark their queens then stay away and don't buy them.
There are plenty of choices out there.
Just don't tell others how to run their operation. Argue with your wallet.
Let the chips fall where they may.
Or maybe advocate for a national honey bee queen rearing law requiring every single beekeeper who sells a queen
to abide by the National Honey Bee Queen Marking Law or face thousands in fines and possibly incarceration.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> This is becoming crazy talk.
> If you don't like how some mark their queens then stay away and don't buy them.
> There are plenty of choices out there.
> Just don't tell others how to run their operation. Argue with your wallet.
> ...


Or, mark your queens with colors used for year of production and be accused of selling old queens. The colors mean something, and if you decide for yourself they don't then live with it.


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> This is becoming crazy talk.
> If you don't like how some mark their queens then stay away and don't buy them.
> There are plenty of choices out there.
> Just don't tell others how to run their operation. Argue with your wallet.
> .


It's crazy to give a company advice on something that clearly pissed off a customer, and is trivially easy to prevent in the future? If you don't want to deal with small orders - then put an order minimum - don't give your small customers a bad experience. 

Like I said - this is easy to fix - just include a flyer saying what the particular color dots mean - "blue over green is a hygenic queen from line 3" or something along those lines. 

What the OP did is no different from a customer buying something new, and it showing up in an old ratty beat up box - and assuming they got sent a used item. It's really easy to improve the customer experience here, and costs almost nothing.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Oh, PLEASE don't get labeling laws into this!

I can see a federal law requiring us to label queens ... forget the queen marking tube and model paint, we'd need microdots with a QR code containing a 24-bit federally-registered serial number plus tiny print around the edges with mandated legal warnings regarding stinging insects and honey consumption by infants. And a whole bureaucracy to contend with to enforce the regulation. And the taxes to pay for it.

This is a lot of huff and puff over what turned out to be a spurious complaint.

When you get down to the actual problem here, it is not the queen marking, it is the dead queens. And the long and short of that is that we're shipping queens via a system that is designed to ship inanimate merchandise. The result is sometimes what what we get is inanimate merchandise. What do you expect? If you must do it, pay the extra to send them fast, and don't do it in weather likely to cause harm. Pick them up yourself if you possibly can.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

CrazyTalk said:


> It's crazy to give a company advice


yes, when not asked for.
Maybe you see a opportunity for yourself here, running YOUR queen rearing business just as YOU see fit.


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

Phoebee said:


> Oh, PLEASE don't get labeling laws into this!
> 
> I can see a federal law requiring us to label queens ... forget the queen marking tube and model paint, we'd need microdots with a QR code containing a 24-bit federally-registered serial number plus tiny print around the edges with mandated legal warnings regarding stinging insects and honey consumption by infants. And a whole bureaucracy to contend with to enforce the regulation. And the taxes to pay for it.


Nobody has suggested labeling laws - just clyderoad fighting a strawman. 

Phoebee, the dead queens are, as you said, a somewhat expected problem. What turned this into a huff is the poor business practices that led to an angry consumer who thought he got ripped off.

Also, clyderoad, if you're not interested in the discussion on business practices, you don't have to participate.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

CrazyTalk said:


> Also, clyderoad, if you're not interested in the discussion on business practices, you don't have to participate.


thank you.
remember, I'm the guy that sells queens using my own marking system and takes care to explain my systems meaning to my customers.
strawman? haha go back and read your posts in this thread over marking standard, bad business practices, free business advice etc. seems like you have taken the OP's issue, and the suppliers issue, personally.
crazy talk.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

In "Blue" years, 2015 was one, I get whining complaints from newbees who depend on the color dots to find the queens. The "blue is too hard to see, can't you use another color"?

Cannot win for losing in this world.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Unsubscribed.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> In "Blue" years, 2015 was one, I get whining complaints from newbees who depend on the color dots to find the queens. The "blue is too hard to see, can't you use another color"?
> 
> Cannot win for losing in this world.


You could try a lighter blue (and deal with the complaints "it looked like white.") We saw the red prone to be chipped off by our local hygienic bees... Newbies were insisting queens had been superseded (or went "missing") and a new queen was laying in 7-10 days.

Until someone has raised and successfully mated a few batches of queens they shouldn't be offering business advice to people that are. They have NO idea the level of effort and the feeling that some portion of buyers are simply paying for the "privilege of killing your bees." And most of those want the breeder to send another free of charge (taking a loss on the entire transaction) so they can hopefully get it right the next time!


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> thank you.
> remember, I'm the guy that sells queens using my own marking system and takes care to explain my systems meaning to my customers.


Hold on, so you're doing exactly what I suggest, and then complaining that I'm suggesting it? Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?


> strawman? haha go back and read your posts in this thread over marking standard, bad business practices, free business advice etc. seems like you have taken the OP's issue, and the suppliers issue, personally.
> crazy talk.


Please quote where I suggested that we make a law on labeling queens. It absolutely is a strawman.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

CrazyTalk said:


> Hold on, so you're doing exactly what I suggest, and then complaining that I'm suggesting it? Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
> 
> 
> Please quote where I suggested that we make a law on labeling queens. It absolutely is a strawman.


> see my post #14, your response #76

>Law: my tongue in cheek suggestion to you for telling others how to run their business. see my post #94

hope this clears it up for you.


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> > see my post #14, your response #76
> 
> >Law: my tongue in cheek suggestion to you for telling others how to run their business. see my post #94
> 
> hope this clears it up for you.


So, Like I said - you erected a strawman about labeling laws. Thanks for, again, proving my point.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

OK, let's get back on track since this thread is close to getting closed.


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