# Reoccurring robbing! How can I prevent it.



## BuzzKill (Nov 27, 2013)

Straight to the point! How can I prevent robbing on hives that I am trying to feed 1/1 + HbH because they have already been picked bone dry just a little while ago? Currently I am using a 1 gallon pail on top of the 4 medium 8 frame supers hive. It is just a bit weaker than the other 2 because it spent about a month queen less. They are all set now and building in numbers nicely yet still getting robbed. I also have an OB hive getting robbed repeatedly. 

Now with the back story. I work nights and received a call at work that one of my hives just swarmed. We are both new at this so of course I questioned her and she reminded me about the previous time she was right about that same hive swarming. Well the next day I did full inspections on all the hives. it was apparent that all three hives were ok and had not swarmed. During the inspection I did notice that one hive had had expanded from 1 super full of honey to 2 supers. I was surprised at this because one of the other hives I just inspected had gone through their entire "spare" super full of honey and was very light in stores. The third hive appeared to be perfectly normal without any major changes. I started to feed the light hive with 1 to 1 + honey bee healthy. Fast forward 4 days I am looking at the OB hive and noticed that they went from having a decent amount of stores to very very little. I threw on a quart jar of the same feed and went on my business. That afternoon I was walking out the door and noticed mayhem going on in the OB hive. It was a full on robbing frenzy. The tube to the window was packed wall to wall with bees either coming or going. The bees were racing around in the hive going everywhere. Not knowing what to do and very little time before leaving for work I just shut off the tube entrance/exit. and walked out. On my way to work thats when the lightbulb went off about the miraculous hive outside making honey while all the rest were about out of stores. The swarm she thought saw was actually a robbing frenzy. I went home for dinner a few hours later and the robber bees that got locked in were still frantically running about looking for a way out and there looked to be a small swarm of bees trying to get in still. I left it closed and went back. At midnight I returned home and everything had calmed so I reopened the hive entrance. By 7:30 this morning when I woke up the bees had already started the robbing process again. As of now I have removed the feed. My buddy pointed out that I no longer have honey bees because they turned into "Homie bees" and acting like thugs stealing from everyone. How to I stop them?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

1, Move the hives to a new apiary. Once robbing is "learned" it is hard to stop with any method. 
2, Reduce the entrance to 1/2" or less.
3, Change the entrance location -- from top to bottom or vice versa, turn the hive 180 degrees so the entrance location is lost to the robbers.
4, Use a robbing screen. 

Robbing screens can be homemade easily, as long as the essential design feature remains -- you want the hive odor to exit a different location than the actual physical exit. This means a serpentine path for the exit offset at least 2 inches from the old entrance. 6 inches is better. A solid baffle at the true exit, helps blind the path to the robber bees orienting by scent. It also means the reduced gateway should be on the new entrance, and the old bottom board stays wide open behind the screen (to permit the odor to waft from the incorrect location .

You should also check for cracks and breaks that create an unauthorized exit. Robbers often enter unguarded exits on the inner cover or a knothole ignored by the hive bees.

Vinegar in the syrup, HBH and other perfumes induce robbing. Plain old sugar water, without any scent, is far better choice if robbing is a risk.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Straight to the point! How can I prevent robbing on hives that I am trying to feed 1/1 + HbH 

Your primary problem is the HBH. Your secondary problem is feeding. HBH is the most effective way I know of to induce robbing...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesrobbing.htm


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I think your report of a swarm was correct. The bees in that hive are only robbers. See if there is any new brood. Notice if any bees are bringing in pollen.

Put up a swarm box with a lure. Maybe you are not too late to recapture the swarm.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

At this point this thread might be too late: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?302347-Sugar-lump-robbing-stopper

Wolfer's 200 feet probably is best after the robbing is ongoing.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I don't feed weak hives in a dearth, especially with HBH. I feed my strong hives and move full capped frames to the weak hives. If the weak hives are actively being robbed, you will need to move them when you add the capped honey or use robber screens (or both).


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

When in doubt, reduce entrance size! Feeding borrowed honey frames an excellent suggestion.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

By Robber Screens I tell you! <<< I swear by them.

Seriously, standard design robber screens work - *if the hive is still worth saving*. There is a point of no return though. They work best if you deploy them before it gets bad, but even then they work better than anything else I have tried. 

I put them on any hive that is being fed, or is otherwise at risk for robbing. So I have very big, very strong (kinda mean) Italian gangster hives - notorious for robbing - elbow to elbow with nucs containing 3 frames of bees that are being fed syrup with HBH and green dye in it - no problems.

Also one of the simplest pieces of equipment to make.


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## BuzzKill (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks for the input guys. The hive is still jam packed with bees and lots of brood just very very little stores. I plan on making these http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/files/147611.pdf and installing them tomorrow morning and then will continue to feed 1-1 without the HBH. Do these robber screens seem like they will work?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Robber screens are very effective. I have not made their style. If you don't have time to build a robber screen, it's fairly effective to just reduce the entrance with screen wire rather than a piece of wood. This confuses the robbers much more than just a small entrance.


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## SpringGreen (Jun 26, 2014)

I used fondant to feed my nucs, which got rolling just about when our nectar flow dried up. That and robber screens pretty much stopped robbing for me. I made my own robber screens with some small lumber from Lowes and some window screen.


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## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> Vinegar in the syrup, HBH and other perfumes induce robbing. Plain old sugar water, without any scent, is far better choice if robbing is a risk.


Really??? Well chalk that up to sumthin learned today. I've been adding vinegar and you can hear the increase in noise from the hive when I fill their bowl! (From a buzz to a BUZZZZ!)
Plain ole sugar syrup works huh? Not that I doubted it would....just thought they preffered it with that PH that the vinegar brings it up to. Thanks JW and Beesource.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Santa Caras said:


> Really??? Well chalk that up to sumthin learned today. I've been adding vinegar and you can hear the increase in noise from the hive when I fill their bowl! (From a buzz to a BUZZZZ!)
> Plain ole sugar syrup works huh? Not that I doubted it would....just thought they preffered it with that PH that the vinegar brings it up to. Thanks JW and Beesource.


For the umpty-umpth time: honey has a low ph because fructose has loosely bound hydrogen ions. The ions flow in and out of solution (pk activity), only when crystallized is the structure of fructose "frozen".

To make syrup into the pH of honey all you need to do is feed it to the bees. The bees add invertase enzyme in their guts, and *presto* low pH proto-honey (derived from corporate white death).

Ascorbic acid is a nice simple acid (very, very similar to Oxalic), and by lowering the pH of standing syrup it prevents the formation of mold. Ascorbic likely also functions in the same manner as Oxalic, and may explain why TF beekeepers who add "ascorbic to balance the pH" don't have the need to dribble Oxalic for mite control. They get the same activity with the blessing of a TF intervention.

The inversion of sugar (hydrolyis) whether by acid, enzyme of heat, consumes an mole of H+ ion and a O--H+ hydroxyl ion for every mole of sugar to form the glucose/fructose pair. In a 1:1 syrup, this consumption of H2++O-- (that's H2O) accounts for a water consumption of 6% of the concentration. (55.5 mol/kilo to 52.6 mol/kilo) this is advantageous -- concentrating the syrup simply through the process of inversion. 
 Acetic Acid (vinegar)
 Formic Acid 
 Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) -- ascorbic is generated in the gut of the bee by the action of resident microbes, it is not a "Vitamin" as in human nutrition.
 Oxalic has a much higher activity than the ascorbic and acetic
 Not your grandma's acid, derived from moldy rye-grass.

What do the simple organic acids do?
1. Hydrolyze Sucrose, or in the vernacular "invert" sugar. They attach to the Oxygen atom bridging the double ring of sucrose and split it by adding hydrogen (H+) to balance to O-- molecular charge.

2. Interfere with Chitin formation in mites. What is Chitin? A picture explains this.
 Chitin is a metabolic rearrangement of Glucose rings (N is added to stabilize). It is a long chain polymer, but retains the O-- weak link. So just as "ascorbic" is added to invert sugar, a weak acid (small enough to insert itself into the polymer structure disrupts chitin (exo-skeleton) formation in the mites.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

BuzzKill said:


> My buddy pointed out that I no longer have honey bees because they turned into "Homie bees" and acting like thugs stealing from everyone. How to I stop them?


Start an arms war, purchase them a bunch of AKs or better yet tec-9s, and they can pop a cap in those robbing bees.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> So I have very big, very strong (kinda mean) Italian gangster hives - notorious for robbing - elbow to elbow with nucs containing 3 frames of bees that are being fed syrup with HBH and green dye in it - no problems.


Probably have guessed the answer but have to verify - Why the green dye?

And does the green dye make the comb green?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Because of a discussion early this past spring about feed getting into honey supers. Ever since then I've been adding green dye whenever I make any feed syrup to see where it goes. It doesn't turn the comb green as far as I can tell so far, but I haven't had much comb built on it either.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> By Robber Screens I tell you! <<< I swear by them.
> 
> Seriously, standard design robber screens work - *if the hive is still worth saving*. There is a point of no return though. They work best if you deploy them before it gets bad, but even then they work better than anything else I have tried.
> 
> ...


They also seem to work in my case. I am not home during the day so I can't tell what happens, but judging from the weight of the frames(in the evening) it seems that they are gaining it. I made them a bit too small maybe: 4 x 2 inch the rest of the entrance being covered with wire cloth. Hope I'm not too wrong about the dimensions.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm with David LaFerney, JWChesnut, and Michael Bush - robber screens are a better solution than small entries. If robbing fights occur in the heat, dead bees can clog the entrance and suffocate the entire hive. The moving/robbing screen prevents this from happening. It frustrates the robbers usually in less than 15 minutes.

JW put it exactly correct - make sure the entrance to the screen is small and is away from the box entrance (from where the smell is emitted). A maze is an excellent idea, with a blind entrance.

A communal feeding post is a good solution as well. Putting out syrup+HBH in an open space near the colonies helps prevent robbing, but you do have to keep it stocked. Floats should be in place to prevent drowning bees.


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## Bueff (Oct 17, 2020)

Hey there, kuat reading up about the robbing issues. I have one out of 20 double nucs which gets totally hammered. I tried the towel method, closing it up and so on. Yesterday I fitted a robbing screen, these guys are still having a go.

I have to admit that the weather is a bit challenging at the moment, lost of drizzling rain and not much food about.
Is there anything else I can do? Moving the nuc is unfortunately not an option, I have only this space available to me.
I might try to spin it around by 180 degrees tomorrow and see how that’ll work.
thanks for your help as always. Have a great easter Monday!
Apologies for the image being on its side, I don’t know how to flip it here. It’s the right way around on my phone 😁


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Bueff said:


> Yesterday I fitted a robbing screen, these guys are still having a go.


As long as they don't get the reinforcement of their robbing urge, they will fade away in time.
Just be patient; no knee jerking.
You only put up the screen yesterday.


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## Bueff (Oct 17, 2020)

GregV said:


> As long as they don't get the reinforcement of their robbing urge, they will fade away in time.
> Just be patient; no knee jerking.
> You only put up the screen yesterday.


Thanks for that. I wasn’t sure how long they will keep trying. It’s the first time that they are so persistent.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Bueff said:


> Apologies for the image being on its side, I don’t know how to flip it here. It’s the right way around on my phone 😁


I rotated your photo to the correct orientation and removed the duplicate.

The issue of sideways photos is due to how some modern phones store images. Instead of the 'old way' of always saving it in a specific orientation, the 'new way' just saves it as quickly as possible and also stores info on how to rotate the image for proper viewing. But then when the image gets transferred to an external system (like here to Beesource) the orientation info is not necessarily transferred properly.

An easy way to fix this issue is to use a free online service. In this case I used:




__





Rotate Image Online - ImageResizer.com


A simple online tool to straighten or rotate images. It’s fast and free to use.




imageresizer.com


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## Bueff (Oct 17, 2020)

Hey guys and girls,
After reading about all the great result of robbing screens, I made some and installed them on the nucs, it did seem to work, today I noticed massive amounts of bees on the inside of the screens as well as clouds of bees around them.
could these little buggers learned the way in to the top of the screens following the ‘original’ owners? There is only a small gap between the box and the frame along the top. I have put pieces of timber across that gap now to make the entrances even smaller.
And should I be concerned about my queens?
Any ideas what else I could do?

thanks heaps!


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