# Randy Oliver on his attempts at selective breeding for mite resistance



## zabadoh (Jul 18, 2019)

From a talk in January 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UuZtJmhHDk#t=16m44s

From a talk in June 2020

As sort of a follow up he's talking about his revelation that some resistant queens' resistance traits are dominant, and others are recessive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXjDSD92ILs&t=4233s


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks for posting these links zabadoh.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

zabadoh said:


> From a talk in January 2020
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UuZtJmhHDk#t=16m44s
> 
> ...


Can you point to the video's time stamp where he talks about the "resistant queens' resistance traits".
Just don't feel like watching the entire video at the moment - pretty long.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> Can you point to the video's time stamp where he talks about the "resistant queens' resistance traits".
> Just don't feel like watching the entire video at the moment - pretty long.


Never mind.
Found it - at about 1:24:00 and on.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

I can tolerate watching the videos if I speed up the rate to 150%. I'd much rather read his reports. The part about queen resistance to mites is just a quick blurb in the last few minutes of the second talk. Have not watched the first video yet.


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

I REALLY enjoy watching his videos and I think he has the best bee website out there, the content is unmatched and he publishes his methodology in detail which is rare. I think I will order a few nukes from him this year just to vote with my wallet for his breeding program, not that I think it matters ...he sells out pretty fast. Imagine if every breeder selected for mite resistance the way he does. I also appreciate his policy of monthly mite washes and being "treatment free" all the way until he needs to save a hive.... then he just takes that queen out of the breeding program, and requeens his whole apiary of thousands of hives from his "treatment free" queens that show resistance. I think this makes a lot of sense and accelerates the spreading of resistant genetics vs other methods like the "bond" method.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

zabadoh:

Thank you for posting the videos- I had not seen the Manitoba video yet and it had good information.

It still jars me when I hear him mention that their resistance breeding program is not breeding for any specific trait other define the job description (keeping mite levels low).

Reminds me that if someone as talented as Randy has determined that such a reductionist approach can be successful, that it might prove valuable for us mere mortals too.

Thanks again for the posting- I appreciate it.

Russ


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> zabadoh:
> 
> It still jars me when I hear him mention that their resistance breeding program is not breeding for any specific trait other define the job description (keeping mite levels low).
> Russ


This approach makes sense to me, considering that we don't have a good handle on why some hives are more resistant than others. If we breed for one trait, we may be missing various minor factors that add up to good resistance.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> ..... not breeding for any specific trait other define the job description (keeping mite levels low).
> 
> ..........Russ


Even the "low mite level" is to be defined.
Is it 1%? 
Is it 5%?
I heard even 10% is OK.... 
This is the main reason I realized I need to start doing my own counts.
No clear cut answer really - site by site and bee by bee, it all depends.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

AR1 said:


> This approach makes sense to me, considering that we don't have a good handle on why some hives are more resistant than others. If we breed for one trait, we may be missing various minor factors that add up to good resistance.


To be clear, I am in complete agreement with his approach- I was simply making the observation that with all the experience and diagnostic tools that he has at his disposal, he is currently using a relatively crude approach that is available to almost anyone. Keep up the good work in your yard.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> Even the "low mite level" is to be defined.
> 
> ...
> 
> No clear cut answer really - site by site and bee by bee, it all depends.


Good point, GregV. For what it is worth, it looks like Randy is using a benchmark of less than 3% infestation after one full year, but I can certainly appreciate how the 'right' answer might be different in depending upon management paradigms, resistance mechanism(s), regions and/or objectives.

That said, I think it is a good idea to set a goal and measure against it. 

To that end, I appreciate you recording your mite counts, and I'll look forward to seeing how these values comport with survival and productivity.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Too many variables for me. Mites make everything worse. In a given year, even excluding mites, some percentage of hives will be killed by one thing or another, cold, starvation, nosema, EFB, bears or whatever. Maybe 10-30% of hives, even before thinking about mites. 

But add in mites. Suppose a hive might have survived a case of nosema or EFB, or a cold winter. But with mites they die. Here is where the difficulty comes in. A colony that has 3% mites but dies due to nosema is still dead and colony with 10% mites but no nosema survives. How do you figure out what happened? All you really know is that one dies and one lives.

Randy's approach covers all that.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> ......How do you figure out what happened? All you really know is that one dies and one lives.
> 
> Randy's approach covers all that.


This is all really easy.
What is on your list, AR, is nothing new - these issues have been forever. 
And yet still the people kept the bees forever too.

So - all those variables, ALL of them amount to historical background noise which results in background mortality.
It is all just a black box noise and can be clumped together as such.

We now have one extra mite variable added - conveniently, we can measure IT (this separate and distinct variable) - separately from the background noise.
In fact, measuring the mites is trivial to do, it can be done at home and for free, and it is precise enough to be meaningful.
This is huge!

Go and measure nosema, EFB, viral load, etc, etc - NOT possible without considerable effort and resources.

To compare, the mite monitoring is really, really easy.
I know I resisted doing the counts myself (due to "guru influences") - but honestly, it should be done and accounted for by everyone in routine decision making (treating or not treating is less important - but situational awareness is more important).


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I know I resisted doing the counts myself (due to "guru influences") - but honestly, it should be done and accounted for by everyone in routine decision making (treating or not treating is less important - but situational awareness is more important).


Welcome to the "dark side" !!

The gurus (or beekeeping taliban as randy calls them) often remind me of my days dealing with cult survivors/rescues..

many of rules seem purely to retain membership

Catch swarms under the lie they are likely feral survivors, not treated bees that overwintered strong... your less likely to quit TF and keep trying if your not losing money and buying packages or actually TF stocks form breeders..

Don't count mites... if you know how bad a hive is infested you may be tempted to treat, and if you see what a thriving overwintered hive looks like compared to one that merely survived you may never go back to TF (it was an eyeopener for me!)

Treating a hive will set its adaption to mites back... its adaption is fixed in its genetics, hives don't adapt, entire populations do.

Lazy beekeeping- No grafting, no mite counts, no treatments, no sweat. let nature takes its course and you will lose less then treaters as you not treating and stressing your bees and doing all the "big Ag" stuff (this is the one that suckered me )

all of it is sad as its blocking the people motivated to go TF from the tools they need to be successful, not supporting TF breeding programs, and drawing in people (easy beekeeping) who would be better suited towards a treatment lifestyle and less work (TF is HARD work, not easy)


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> Welcome to the "dark side" !!
> ........


Unsure how knowing the counts would have affected my total loss last year. Hard to think back.

But for sure, I would LOVE to know why my "breeder queen" of 2019 season totally collapsed as early as in September.
No way to know now, only suspect mite drifting from the zombie hive I brought into that yard (probably was the fatal mistake).
Of course, I never counted mites in 2018 either - to know if she even was a good breeder in the mite-control context.

Hard #s for that particular yard (4 "promising" colonies collapsed) would be very, very useful about one year ago.
In fact, had I counted the mites in the zombies *before *bringing them to my breeding yard, I might have moved the zombies elsewhere. 
THAT alone could have made my seasonal outcome much different. 

Anyways, no business can operate in total darkness for it to be long-term sustainable.
That's for sure.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> .......(TF is HARD work, not easy)


It appears so for me - here and now.
Maybe deep in the Ozarks it is different. 
But lazy beekeeping here and now? 
Forget-about-it. I have been trying.

I will still hold the goal of 50% consistent survivability and chem-free though!
That alone is some work and worthwhile fun to me.


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

_Don't count mites... if you know how bad a hive is infested you may be tempted to treat, and if you see what a thriving overwintered hive looks like compared to one that merely survived you may never go back to TF (it was an eyeopener for me!)_

Apparently no one on this forum has ever heard of a mite bomb.

Do your neighbors a favor and euthanize your "treatment free" colonies that have sky high mite counts before us responsible beekeepers wind up with a mite bomb.

Thanks.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> Apparently no one on this forum has ever heard of a mite bomb.


reread the post you quoting me in... you out of context .. I am referring to what I see as "bad" TF rules


msl said:


> the gurus (or beekeeping taliban as randy calls them) often remind me of my days dealing with cult survivors/rescues..
> many of rules seem purely to retain membership


followed by the "rules" witch you qoateing me in
and then


msl said:


> all of it is sad as its blocking the people motivated to go TF from the tools they need to be successful, not supporting TF breeding programs, and drawing in people (easy beekeeping) who would be better suited towards a treatment lifestyle and less work (TF is HARD work, not easy)


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

surviving our bees 
I think you got msl confused with me. My neighbor doesn't seem to care, he doesn't treat either. Might be your neighbor but cannot tell cause you did not add your location where we could know.
Either way. Welcome to the forum.
Cheers
gww


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> Apparently no one on this forum has ever heard of a mite bomb.
> Do your neighbors a favor and euthanize your "treatment free" colonies that have sky high mite counts before us responsible beekeepers wind up with a mite bomb.
> Thanks.


This IS the treatment free forum, I recommend reading the rules for posting in this forum if you haven't already. 

For your convenience; Unique Forum Rules
Excerpt; This forum is for those who wish to discuss Treatment-Free Beekeeping, not for them to be required to defend it. There is no need to discuss commercial or other methods of beekeeping. There are multiple forums to address any and all subjects. Any post advocating the use of treatments, according to the forum definition of treatment will be considered off topic and shall be moved to another forum or deleted by a moderator, unless it is employed as part of a plan in becoming treatment free. Discussions of the definition of "Treatment-Free" will be deleted.

Alex


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Alex, that text was a quote from msl (post #14). Msl is a TF beekeeper. But you are correct. This is the one sub forum where TF beekeeping can be discussed without having to defend the entire concept. No one is permitted to argue FOR treatments or disparage those that do not treat purposefully. But even a TF beekeeper can get pissed when a BEEHAVER comes in and mite bombs the area with his non resistant stock.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> Alex, that text was a quote from msl (post #14). Msl is a TF beekeeper. But you are correct. This is the one sub forum where TF beekeeping can be discussed without having to defend the entire concept. No one is permitted to argue FOR treatments or disparage those that do not treat purposefully. But even a TF beekeeper can get pissed when a BEEHAVER comes in and mite bombs the area with his non resistant stock.


The following statement is what I was attempting to reference;

_Apparently no one on this forum has ever heard of a mite bomb.

Do your neighbors a favor and euthanize your "treatment free" colonies that have sky high mite counts before us responsible beekeepers wind up with a mite bomb. _

Alex


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Edited the quote. Thank you for clarifying.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Ahudd... while I don't like his tone (witch is often a mistake made by the reader when it comes to the internet)... its a perfectly reasonable position to euthanize hives so stop the spread of a pathogen. In short, it uslay better to shoot a rabid dog then ignore the signs and "see if they make it"
In Fact all the research shows not doing it endangers your "good" hives and those around you (both managed and feral) and as such not ethical beekeeping.

sadly "not believing in" might bombs is central to many TF groups, one of the many ways these groups ignore science in a bid for membership share, to the detriment of the members


JWPalmer said:


> Msl is a TF beekeeper.


I am not, but I care deeply about breeding for resistance, and what its actually going to take to make that happen


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Msl
To be contrarian, it was of course discussed recently in a thread of a long term treatment free bee keeper buying mites to put pressure on his hives.
Just saying.
Cheers
gww


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

msl said:


> I am not, but I care deeply about breeding for resistance, and what its actually going to take to make that happen


My mistake. I guess I inferred that from your other posts. I believe that we can breed for resistance, but resistant bees can still be killed with a mite bomb. It is, to me, the reason hard Bond does not work. Hives in a TF apiary that do not show resistance should be treated, requeened, or euthanized.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Absulty GWW!!!!
But if you need to import mites to add pressure becuse you have very few mites so your hives are not collapsing from mites!!!

"Kefuss mite black holes" are as real as mite bombs. When you have a lot of resticant in an area the mite pressure drops... They go in and they don't come out, the bigger are area the bigger the effect.. Ie if your running 100 resticant hives or so and they go rob out 2 mite bombs from a hobbyist just down the road (or there is a booming feral pop) .. not much is going to happen.. The mite load is spread across many hives and they will deal with it... But if you just have 4 hive in the same situation,, They get 25% of that mite load instead of 2%..


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Maybe the mis-perception was mine.

Alex


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

msl
I give you that. I don't think there are many black holes in my yard either. Still watching and seeing what happens though. Got a bad feeling about year six but am still waiting for spring.
Cheers
gww


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

edited.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I agree. Following is the statement to which I took offense.

_Apparently no one on this forum has ever heard of a mite bomb._

It sounded dismissive and baiting. If that is not correct, then I would apologize.

Alex[/QUOTE]


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

That time of being invincible for Kefus seems to have passed. The levels of associated viruses in the area may be ultimately the main factor and subject to change. Webster has apparently had periodic collapses. Apparent mite resistance or tolerance, reportedly, can disappear if the stock is moved to a different environment.
A bit like riding a bicycle; if you want to keep it going you have to keep pedaling.


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

I agree with JWPalmer - there's several options, and one must avoid mite bombing neighboring beekeepers.


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

I realized that @msl was pointing out the things NOT TO DO - and I read it differently. 

Apologizes, there seems to be a misinterpretation.

Maybe a big highlighted disclaimer would help... "things not to do as a TF beekeeper".


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

gww said:


> I give you that. I don't think there are many black holes in my yard either. Still watching and seeing what happens though. Got a bad feeling about year six but am still waiting for spring.


You have done better then most, so there must be some magic in them there hills




crofter said:


> A bit like riding a bicycle; if you want to keep it going you have to keep pedaling.


yep
Many people are quick to point out the treatment treadmill and pay no attention to the genetics tread mill. If your dependent on either and you stop.... you crash (as the Kefuss experiment demoed) unless the traid becomes fixed in the population at a landscape scale 

Likewise if your dependant on a low area mite load do to isolation, and that load shifts you crash... as seen when the famous gotland bonded bees had to be treated to save them (to valuable to lose as a research stock )


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

msl said:


> Likewise if your dependant on a low area mite load do to isolation, and that load shifts you crash... as seen when the famous gotland bonded bees had to be treated to save them (to valuable to lose as a research stock )


I had not seen that about the Gotland bees. I have read that they didn't show much resistance when moved.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> I had not seen that about the Gotland bees. I have read that they didn't show much resistance when moved.


The Gotland population comprised 20 to 30 colonies in 2015 (Locke, 2016). It is still monitored for
research purposes, although it is not used commercially. Due to the increasing density of nonresistant
colonies in the surrounding environment, t*he experimental population recently
experienced increasing infestation levels and, from 2017 on wards, it was treated as a
precautionary measure in order to decrease the risk of losing a stock of such scientific
importance (Dietemann and Locke, 2019).* Although it is not known whether this population
would have perished without these treatments, the unusual increase in infestation rates raises
a question concerning the long-term resilience of populations that have been through such a
severe bottleneck. 








(PDF) Three Decades of Selecting Honey Bees that Survive Infestations by the Parasitic Mite Varroa destructor: Outcomes, Limitations and Strategy


PDF | Despite the implementation of control strategies, the invasive parasitic mite Varroa destructor remains one of the principal causes of honey bee... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> Many people are quick to point out the treatment treadmill and pay no attention to the genetics tread mill. If your dependent on either and you stop.... you crash (as the Kefuss experiment demoed) unless the traid becomes fixed in the population at a landscape scale


MSL:

In my humble opinion, this is a fair assessment. That said, I would rather classify Kefuss’ effort as a successful ‘proof of concept’ that might work in many settings provided it is diligently adhered to. It appears to me that what gets lost in most discussions of the ‘Bond’ method are the finer points of what Kefuss actually did, namely:


Start with stock with a modicum of resistance- namely, Dr. Kefuss started with Tunisian Intermissa genetics as his base- a population which already had a documented 5-year survival in the absence of treatments.
Have a sufficient population size- Dr. Kefuss began his ‘Bond’ selection with an initial population of 483 colonies, from which he identified 115 colonies for evaluation- subsequently selecting 14 (3%) colonies to breed from. Indeed, Dr. Kefuss has been unequivocal in saying a minimum sample size of 100 colonies is necessary to execute a resistance breeding program.
Execute consistent and data-driven selection- As you point out, the genetic selection continues year-over-year, breeding from the top 3% of the population.
Raise drones from the entire population- Dr. Kefuss espouses putting drone comb in every colony to flood the area with selected genetics.
As to whether the effort was a failure in the main- the reality is that Dr. Kefuss is no longer a commercial beekeeper but continues to have a thriving TF queen rearing operation and is actively selling 48-hour queen cells at a steady clip to an eager market.

Thus, I think we have to be careful to recognize that the ‘Bond’ method is just that- a method. Once the process is no longer adhered to, it might be expected that the genetics will revert to the mean of the local population.

Which obviously ties into your astute observations that to ultimately be successful at establishing a stable base of resistance, we likely need to start thinking on a more population-based level, proactively looking for collaboration with our beekeeping neighbors and doing what we can to protect the pockets of resistance that seem to emerge in populations which are less influenced by outbreeding depression.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> _Don't count mites... if you know how bad a hive is infested you may be tempted to treat, and if you see what a thriving overwintered hive looks like compared to one that merely survived you may never go back to TF (it was an eyeopener for me!)_
> 
> Apparently no one on this forum has ever heard of a mite bomb.
> 
> ...


not sure where you are coming from here but:

Apparently no one on this forum has ever heard of a mite bomb. interesting comment after joining 2 days ago..... So you read every thread and did not see those words? I only read back 15 years, took several days and it is there several times, BTW


Do your neighbors a favor and euthanize your "treatment free" colonies that have sky high mite counts before us responsible beekeepers wind up with a mite bomb. Really ,,, someone TF is going to do counts often enough to KNOW they have a mite bomb, "Us responsible beekeepers" need to understand the keeping/having environment a bit more IMO. So how do I do a mite count of the colonies in the trees and walls of barns, Actually?

guess what sometimes there is no one else to blame.

Sorry in advance if I come off wrong, I do not play the blame game.
Everything is mine to deal with, period.

GG


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

In my previous reply, I had to re-read msls post because it wasn't clear that they were posting what not to do with TF bees.

If you read my my recent response that would be more clear.

I realize there's still some TF beekeepers out there who do the very things that MSL was recommending against.

I was relieved to realize that wasn't how this forum was practicing TF beekeeping.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

AHudd said:


> I agree. Following is the statement to which I took offense.
> 
> _Apparently no one on this forum has ever heard of a mite bomb._
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
I took it the same way Alex.

Will carry on

GG


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

GG did you read my latest 2 responses? I think that might help, you're falling into the same pit as I did by not fully following the context of the discussion.

Either way, I was not correct in pointing the finger at this forum. I point at those TF beekeepers @msl was scorning.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> GG did you read my latest 2 responses? I think that might help, you're falling into the same pit as I did by not fully following the context of the discussion.
> 
> Either way, I was not correct in pointing the finger at this forum. I point at those TF beekeepers @msl was scorning.


ok then
I read many forums, often they merge a bit.
Sorry I was confused.

reading your post straight away I was having dejavue all over again....
you quote of what not to do must have got me derailed.


no worries

GG


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Surviving the bees
However, though the forum as a whole does not keep bees like that and with what is considered bad form, some like me do.

I see you added your location. I really think that helps when accepting or giving advice on here. 
Cheers
gww


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> Apparently no one on this forum has ever heard of a mite bomb.
> 
> Do your neighbors a favor and euthanize your "treatment free" colonies that have sky high mite counts before us responsible beekeepers wind up with a mite bomb.



I am very new to beekeeping and trying to not use chemical treatments for mites and yet control them. I am slightly confused as per the 'mite bomb'. I know what it is and I know that those who treat often use this term to target those who do not because the mite loaded bees infect their bees during drift, or robbing. My query is, why then do beekeepers not have robber screens built into their hives? Would this not help the problem? After dealing with my first robbing frenzy last summer I decided to built a 'quick attach' screen for each of my layens hives that will go on in the spring and not come off until I need to put on my insulation sheets. Or is this too simple and I am missing a key component.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

ursa_minor said:


> Or is this too simple and I am missing a key component.


Many don't care and/or like antimaskers and anti vaxers they outrightly deny the science and "don't believe in" mite bombs.

I feel it should be univnerical here, TF or TX , but the main 3 problems are(speaking in the urban/suburban gradient were I keep)
#1 screens protect the hives of others, not yours, so many are under motivated to buy one till they see their hive having an issue
#2 a lot of mites are transferred by passive/uncontested robing during the early and late stages. most never see it.. in fact most never see robing at all, suddenly there are no bees flying any more and the open the hive and its empty and dry, " they must have absconded!!!" they think. they don't put it on early season for fear of hurting honey production
#3 its just not being taught as good management


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

robbing goes both ways, when your bees rob a weak hive loaded with mites the "robber screen does nothing.
Also during collapse it is common for bees to leave the "doomed" hive and join other hives in an effort to do something somewhere, also bringing mites.
Also IMO does little for drift.

if you are looking at a 1 of 10 score the robbing screens do like 3 of 10

GG


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Gray Goose said:


> Also during collapse it is common for bees to leave the "doomed" hive and join other hives in an effort to do something somewhere, also bringing mites.


Selleys work suggests drifting is a factor in the same apiary, not so much yard to yard and that most of the drift happens before the hive becomes a bomb








Mite bombs or robber lures? The roles of drifting and robbing in Varroa destructor transmission from collapsing honey bee colonies to their neighbors


When honey bee colonies collapse from high infestations of Varroa mites, neighboring colonies often experience surges in their mite populations. Collapsing colonies, often called “mite bombs”, seem to pass their mites to neighboring colonies. This can happen by mite-infested workers from the...




journals.plos.org






> We saw no sudden “explosion” of mite-carrying bees from sick colonies to each of the healthy colonies via worker drifting. Indeed, we found that few mites passed from the heavily infested (MDC) colonies to the weakly infested (MRC) colonies through either worker drift (mostly to nearby colonies, Fig 4) or drone drift (almost exclusively to nearby colonies, Fig 5). It was only when the MDCs were weakened so much that they became irresistible robbing targets that mites passed in large numbers from the MDCs to the MRCs.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Ahh, I totally forgot the angel that my bees robbing someone else infected hive is a problem for me. I guess I will use it to eliminate robbing, and mitigate the problem I had last year of finding a robbing frenzy going and then having to stop it. That was an interesting lesson for sure.


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