# swarm trap frames



## mlanden (Jun 19, 2016)

My mentor was good enough to build a couple of traps for me this week for use in March, 2017 or so. He didn't seem too certain of frame-use in them, so ... I'm posing the question to you experts and old-time beeks:

1. When I put the traps out, should I place foundation-containing [or_ foundationless_] frames in them? If so, how many? [the traps can take 5 frames apiece].

2. If I use frames with foundation, would it matter if I use frames from this summer -- wax-coated plastic, mostly, that still have some "grunge" on them [containing parts of dead bee larvae, wax maggot bits, etc from summer's hive-collapse ordeal]? The mentor thought this would actually attract bees. I froze and then scraped [as best I could; I had a pinched nerve at the time] the frames.

3. If I use frames *with* found., would that attract SHBs/wax moths? Especially if there're no bees in the traps yet to fight the vermin off.

4. Just for fun: any opinions re: using lemongrass oil versus Swarm Commander (?) or nothing at all to attract a swarm?

Thanks as always for feedback and anecdotes on swarm trap use .....

Mitch


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I have used foundationless frames with a partial piece of old brood comb tied in one frame with 100% success the few times I set one out. A used hive body would help attract too. If the comb is completely empty it shouldn't be taken over by pests.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If your mentor doesn't know what works, why is he teaching and why are you listening? There are lots of old threads on these forums dicussing every conceivable eventuality. You can read several and find better advice. You can read more and quickly see who it might be better to listen to.


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## appalachianoutdoors (May 16, 2015)

DanielD said:


> I have used foundationless frames with a partial piece of old brood comb tied in one frame with 100% success the few times I set one out. A used hive body would help attract too. If the comb is completely empty it shouldn't be taken over by pests.


+1


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

A swarm trap without brood comb of some sort is almost useless. Regardless of how much lemongrass oil or swarm commander you put in it. 

5 frames may be too small, at least for early swarms. It may catch after swarms. 

I use one drawn frame and the rest foundationless most of the time. Swarms are comb drawing machines and if your trap is levelI have good luck getting them to draw it out straight. I think they feel they have more room with foundation less frames, but it could be in my head.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

a five frame deep box is a little smaller than a swarm 'prefers' according to tom seely's research.

i had better luck stacking two 5 frame boxes one over the other. i put 1 frame with some brood comb on it in the middle of the top box, flanked with 1 foundationless frame on both sides, and flanked those foundationless frames with a frame of plastic foundation on both ends. i left the bottom box empty. once the swarm was caught, and after 4 to 5 days post capture, i consolidated the two 5 frame boxes into one 10 frame box and added the remaining 5 frames.


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## appalachianoutdoors (May 16, 2015)

Tom Seeleys book Honeybee Democracy was a great book on how bees choose a new hive location, what they are looking for, what dimensions, entrance size, etc.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

bees like old comb as a place to move to the best. a 10 frame deep box is about right. an 8 frame is fine if you use that size.a medium 10 is the smallest size for decent results, a little on the small side... so let us imagine that things go as planned..if we used older but usable frames and boxes there is little work involved in adding the new hive to the yard.. if we did something "special" or different you are making more work. if you use 5 fame deep nucs then 5 over 5 is a good answer. the best place for garbage old stuff is the burning barrel. the best place for new stuff is a line of hives, you put the bees in the new hives. the last i knew bees were good at cleaning comb, they will find unused hives and clean out any food and make a note of where they found the food.. most beekeepers use some lure or other. you do not need traps just more of the stuff that you use regularly... as always if you even suspect american foulbrood exposure then burn it.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Mitch, this is an awkward situation because your mentor made the traps for you, and a five frame deep cavity will work but not as well as an eight frame deep cavity. Swarm Commander is marginally better than lemon grass oil. One frame of fully drawn foundation and the rest foundationless is best. Where I am, location makes a difference, and knowing whether a particular location will be good or bad is, for me, largely a matter of trial and error.


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## ShrekVa (Jan 13, 2011)

Fill the box with frames, it makes transferring a breeze and you wont have to cut comb from the lid. I think its more attractive to bees without full foundation sheet. Use starter strips if you want of wax or plastic foundation, popsicle sticks, turn the wedge on the frame if you have them any of those work great, they are geared up to draw worker sized comb let them. An old brood comb is a great attractant but you can catch swarms without an old comb if the box suits them. I think an 8-10 frame deep sized box works great.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

"This is a good thread for you to brag on. I can't believe you haven't done it yet. 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332502-swarm-trap-frames 
Sent from my iPad, Charlie B"

As per Charlie's above request:

Five frame traps work well but remember my inimitable quote, "A small swarm will be trapped by a large trap but a large swarm won't fit into a small trap".

I use as many black combs as I have. I have had foundationless combs collapse when moving traps, don't use them any longer. I feel that swarms prefer deep and jumbo comb over mediums. Using your common brood chamber is good economy but having a few nuc boxes on hand doesn't hurt either. My latest refinement is these hive clips:



Last year's model made from old 8 frame deeps:



Part of my 2016 arsenal that keeps Charlie, Mark and Ray wide awake at night (yes Charlie, I CAUGHT 59 LAST SEASON!):


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## mlanden (Jun 19, 2016)

Vance G said:


> If your mentor doesn't know what works, why is he teaching and why are you listening? There are lots of old threads on these forums dicussing every conceivable eventuality. You can read several and find better advice. You can read more and quickly see who it might be better to listen to.


Roger that, Vance; in this case, my "mentor" (a terrific engineer/guy but with limited beek experience -- it's a long story as to how I was assigned him) phoned me to say he was making a batch of swarm traps and wanted to let me have 2. An offer I couldn't refuse. Another assoc. member has volunteered to help me out come spring, so .... that'll have to go better than the disaster I had this past summer-- both hives collapsing from swarming/infestations, etc.

There's plenty of time to read up on the sources; judging from the feedback I got from our pals here, seems like a standard deep with pristine frames might be a good way to go. Probably can't hurt to put the new (little) traps out too, when the time comes. Thx mucho .....

Mitch


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

use at least a frame or 2 of older drawn comb with your pristine frames, it attracts the bees.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

I guess I am trying to hijack the thread.....
Would spraying the old bait comb with Bt be a good, or bad idea?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

tech.35058 said:


> Would spraying the old bait comb with Bt be a good, or bad idea?


very good idea, it's the only thing i use bt for.


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## waspslayer (Jan 3, 2010)

Bt?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

http://www.clemson.edu/extension/beekeepers/publications/wax_moth_ipm.html


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

In my third year of trapping and this is what has worked good for me. I build a bunch of frames and I cut pieces of rite cell foundation into about 3 inch strips. I glue these into the top of the frames for starter strips. I put one frame in the middle of my trap with drawn comb. Some times I use fill frames of comb, sometimes I rubber band in a large piece of comb. Then I put in 7 frames with just the starter strips. My thought is the openness inside will be attractive to the bees, however having a place that a queen can start laying right away is also attractive to them. I try to check my traps every 2 weeks. Once I discover bees in one I wait a few days and take it down. I can't remember a swarm that I caught that didn't have eggs in it. This obviously helps keep the bees in the trap.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I didn't have but two old black combs. I cut them into two inch squares and put them in the traps for thier smell. Some I just threw on the bottom and some I rubberbanded in foundationless frames. I didn't see anything bother them old black combs here where I live. I left them out all year for two years.

I moved every swarm I got the same day they arrived at night. Only one was in the box more then one day. The comb collapsed when moving it except the one that was built on the lid. What I learned was the frames need to be jammed tight against each other and fastened in a way that they don't swing at all.

I only caught 3 swarms and so am not an expert.
Take it for what it is worth.
gww


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## beefarmer (May 2, 2010)

I like to put 1 old drawn comb frame in the trap and then either new plastic wax coated foundation frames, or new frames with a short starter strip on top. You should use some good frames because when you transfer swarm to hive body you want decent frames for them to have.


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## Reef Resiner (Jun 9, 2015)

I use a 5 frame trap that's about 16 inches high with deep frames up top. Basically two nucs stacked on eachother with the entrance on the bottom. I use swarm commander lure and have the trap placed at least 3 feet off the ground (being any higher didn't result in higher success) and in an area where you see bees. 1 Old brood frame in the middle, the rest of the frames are plastic foundation. Over 100% success trap rate last year (multiple captures in all traps). Using LGO over Swarm commander is debateable, both have success.

Best of luck.


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

I plan on putting 1 drawn comb in each trap with 2 plastic foundation (wax coated) frames on each side of the drawn comb. When I transfer the catch to a 10 frame, I'd like to position the old comb to be able to rotate it out ASAP and use again in a trap. I'm assuming it will have brood due to being the only drawn comb in the trap.

So which position would you place it in the 10 framer? On the very outside, 1 frame in from the outside?......


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

In my opinion if you only have one frame of comb in a trap and a swarm moves in I would transfer that frame and keep it in the hive. That is going to be the only frame the queen has to lay on. Plus the brood in the frame is one thing that keeps the bees from absconding. I don't think rotating it out to use in another trap would be the best idea, again I am not a trapping expert.


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

flyin-lowe said:


> In my opinion if you only have one frame of comb in a trap and a swarm moves in I would transfer that frame and keep it in the hive. That is going to be the only frame the queen has to lay on. Plus the brood in the frame is one thing that keeps the bees from absconding. I don't think rotating it out to use in another trap would be the best idea, again I am not a trapping expert.


I agree. My "ASAP' should have stated how to get the frame safely to the outside of the box to rotate out.


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## BuckeyeBeek (Apr 16, 2013)

My traps hold 4-5 frames. I start with 1 frame of the oldest darkest brood frame I can find as bait, the rest can be filled in with frames of your choice including foundationless. Then bait with a little honey and a few drops of lemon grass oil or a few squirts of swarm commander. Last year put out 10 traps, caught 11 swarms.


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## mlanden (Jun 19, 2016)

BuckeyeBeek said:


> My traps hold 4-5 frames. I start with 1 frame of the oldest darkest brood frame I can find as bait, the rest can be filled in with frames of your choice including foundationless. Then bait with a little honey and a few drops of lemon grass oil or a few squirts of swarm commander. Last year put out 10 traps, caught 11 swarms.


Interesting idea -- I've not seen anybody in the Forum suggest using honey along with any attractant. Wouldn't there be ant issues? My yard is ant paradise - tons of fruit trees, berry bushes/vines, etc growing here.


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## BuckeyeBeek (Apr 16, 2013)

mlanden said:


> Interesting idea -- I've not seen anybody in the Forum suggest using honey along with any attractant. Wouldn't there be ant issues? My yard is ant paradise - tons of fruit trees, berry bushes/vines, etc growing here.


I generally don't see ant problems until around mid summer around the hives. During late April/ May swarm season I don't see ants messing with my swarm traps. They're also hanging about 7 ft off the ground in a tree as well so perhaps that helps


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## Reef Resiner (Jun 9, 2015)

Using a tiny bit of honey I think helps get your trap recognized, especially if you are in a new area. My traps that had some honey in them got quick attention from foragers and also got the most swarms at first... After I got 1 swarm in them I didn't use honey anymore but still had great results. It's usually not a bad risk to take. If you think it may get ants, I would take a jug of water with you if you need to go into combat.


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