# Alcohol Tolerance?



## ducatidom

Discussion of this being taken from the De-gassing thread.....

I know that yeast strains are tested by the various labs/manufacturers, who then publish their result. But is this really gospel?

Are these "real world" tests i.e.... do they actually brew beverages? Do they run tests with various ingredients, temperatures, nutrient additions and other techniques used by brewers? What is the rate of mutation/adaptation of yeast?

I have done some basic brewing in the past, and just recently taken up again. Lots of things changed in the years between. 

I appreciate any/all thoughts anyone wants to share, and hope this doesn't end up as an argument starter.........


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## FlowerPlanter

This came about because of the BOMM recipes which claim that if yeast is properly fed under the optimum conditions that could keep going past their tolerance.

I have no idea if this is true or not but here's the source;
see the recipes tab; one month BOMM and experiments tab; yeast selection;

https://www.denardbrewing.com

I have two BOMMs brewing right now, they took off faster than any mead I have seen. It at 66 deg so it not a temperature accelerated speed. I really don't want a rocket fuel or an overly alcohol mead, which it's not suppose to be. time will tell.


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## ducatidom

I've read thru his site. Makes one think. 

Lets say I have a yeast I love for hard cider, but its listed tolerance is 10% ABV. Based on Denards results and theories, is could be possible to turn out a mead of 12-13% ABV, just by tweeking technique. That could mean adding some different yeast character to future meads.


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## FlowerPlanter

K2CO3, three step feeding DAP and fermaid K, degassing. 

Those are the BOMM variables you can try tweaking. 

I might also try WYeast 1388 for your cider.


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## ducatidom

1388 can make a good mead "off the shelf" so to say. My wandering mind however is thinking about the possibilities of extending "non traditional" yeasts into mead making. Like pushing a Belgian Strong or Saisson type up into the more "traditional" wine yeast territory of 14-16%. By doing so a person could add a new set of esther complexity not necessarily inherent is the more commonly used wine yeasts.


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## Tenbears

Sacked Mead is nothing new The technique of sacking has been around for a long time. And is basically what is described in the link. Yeast alcohol tollerances are researched by the manufacture of the yeast. yeasts are developed for certain purposes. some may be for alcohol volume targets, some may have been developed to set a specific fermentation rate to ensure a good nose is left. While others may be crafted with other goals in mind. When a developer determines the alcohol tolerance they also determine through numerous samplings the variation, In other words a yeast with an alcohol tolerance of 14% with Low Variation will always quit very close to it's tolerances Under a normal ferment. this does not account for sacking, and even sacking has its limits.


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## ColoradoRaptor

ducatidom said:


> I've read thru his site. Makes one think.


Precisely, that is what I did! I thought about it and though about it and realized doing it would be a logical approach. I was skeptical because I was taught how to do things a certain way and this was not how I was taught. So, I ran several one gallon test batches and found that it did indeed work. Now for me that was awesome because I have always preferred higher alcohol sweet desert drinks over dry! So now I follow the BOMM method with all my mead making and have improved my mead overall. I am happy and was eager to share. I hope those of you that are willing to try this have as happy an ending as I did. Here is something else to read that might be of interest. http://meadist.com/making-mead/great-ale-yeast-mead-experiment-brewing-mead-with-ale-yeast/


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## FlowerPlanter

Thanks Tenbears.

In the BOMM recipes what exactly makes it "sacking"? K2CO3, degassing, step feeding or all three? The reason I ask, I am pondering ways to reduce the FG 16% and bring it closer to 12-14% with out staving or stressing the yeast. Could I just reduce the last step feeding by maybe half or skip it all together then cold crash and stabilize?


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## ducatidom

Well I guess what I'm really on about is can a higher tolerance Ale yeast make a good mead?

I know a Short Mead could be made as they are lower ABV, But.....has anyone sacked an Ale yeast up to normal mead ABV? Would the differing characteristics of an Ale yeast be worth the extra effort?


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## ColoradoRaptor

FlowerPlanter said:


> Thanks Tenbears.
> 
> In the BOMM recipes what exactly makes it "sacking"? K2CO3, degassing, step feeding or all three? The reason I ask, I am pondering ways to reduce the FG 16% and bring it closer to 12-14% with out staving or stressing the yeast. Could I just reduce the last step feeding by maybe half or skip it all together then cold crash and stabilize?


Sacking is using larger quantities of honey having a high starting gravity. It also requires more attention and nutrients or there is risk of a stall. The BOMM is nothing more than the method and yeast used by Dr. Denard. His first name is Bray so you get Brays One Month Mead. And to clarify, you can start with a very high gravity and the yeast won't die so long as you give them proper nutrients! I have started a many sack meads with a gravity between 1.140 and 1.175 using 1388. The yeast is slow to take off but take off they do! I also buffer with the K2CO3 because once they get going they are like little roman legions decimating the sugars available and that can drop PH quickly stalling the fermentation!


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## ColoradoRaptor

ducatidom said:


> Well I guess what I'm really on about is can a higher tolerance Ale yeast make a good mead?


Read the article in the link I posted above, it's about making mead with Ale yeast!


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## Tenbears

FlowerPlanter said:


> Thanks Tenbears.
> 
> In the BOMM recipes what exactly makes it "sacking"? K2CO3, degassing, step feeding or all three? The reason I ask, I am pondering ways to reduce the FG 16% and bring it closer to 12-14% with out staving or stressing the yeast. Could I just reduce the last step feeding by maybe half or skip it all together then cold crash and stabilize?


 Sacking is a method of enticing a given yeast to stay (Alive) (Just a term the yeast goes dormant and actually does not die) beyond it's normal tolerances. This is achieved by adding small amounts of sugar to the must in steps adding the sugar which is done along with nutrients, causes some displacement of CO2 and sort of invigorates the yeast which stimulates further fermentation. Simply starting with a high SG will cause the yeast to die (again Just a term) when it reaches it's alcohol tolerances. Some cultures call a sacked mead any mead with an alcohol greater that 14% But most Masers Know that the way to increase alcohol is by stepping in, the sugar. so the term sacking has come to refer to that process. 
If you wish to finish a mead with 14% alcohol there are two ways to do so.
The first is to start with a SG of 1.095 and ferment to dryness. When fermentation is done it will have 14% ABV. If one desires a sweet mead. then when clear one can add honey to taste. Potassium Sorbate is added at a rate of 1/2 tsp per gallon to prevent further fermentation. The beauty of this is the added honey retains more of the honey flavor within the mead
The second is to select a yeast that has an alcohol tolerance of the desired ABV. Say 14%. Red Star's Cote de Blanc has such a tolerance. if one likes a mead with around 30 SG points then they would start with a SG of 1.125 when the alcohol reached 1.030 the yeast would die leaving 30 SG points. when using this method look at the yeast tolerances for temperature range keep the ambient at or slightly below the minimum. remember the ferment will create some heat holding it to the minimum. doing so retains more of the honeys characteristics.


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## ducatidom

OK, so it looks like some people have taken the leap and made some good meads without the "traditional" wine yeasts. That is good news to me, as I like to add some spin to things when I can. Also seems like a much more "labor" intensive process, needing sacking and SNA to get the final ABV into the 14% range. So at present I will stick to my Cote de Blanc and hone my basic cyser/mead making. As I progress and have more free time I will branch out to some of the other yeasts and see what I can make with them!


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## Tenbears

You can easily get the ABV up to 21% without Sacking Simply use a yeast that has an alcohol tolerance of your desired level For example Lalvin K1-V1116 and Lalvin EC-1118 go to 18% Red Star Flor Sherry can go to 20% Wyeast Dry Mead and Zinfandel go to 18% And Wyeast Eau de Vie goes to 21%. 

Simply set your SG to far enough above the Amount required for the Tolerances to leave the desired Residual sugar If you do not leave enough for your taste You can always back sweeten, Or ferment to dryness and back sweeten.


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## ducatidom

Tenbears said:


> You can easily get the ABV up to 21% without Sacking Simply use a yeast that has an alcohol tolerance of your desired level For example Lalvin K1-V1116 and Lalvin EC-1118 go to 18% Red Star Flor Sherry can go to 20% Wyeast Dry Mead and Zinfandel go to 18% And Wyeast Eau de Vie goes to 21%.
> 
> Simply set your SG to far enough above the Amount required for the Tolerances to leave the desired Residual sugar If you do not leave enough for your taste You can always back sweeten, Or ferment to dryness and back sweeten.


I think it is well established that the wine and champaigne yeasts can and do make great mead. My interest is in using other available yeasts. Yeast flavor profiles can vary quite a bit between the "normal" wine type, ale yeasts, even lagering yeasts. Most of the beer yeasts would only be good for a Short Mead(low ABV), but it seems like some could be pushed along to make a Traditional(mid ABV). 

I am the type of person who likes to reach my goal, but not necessarily by walking the common path. Sometimes it works, sometimes it is a great adventure with good results, and sometimes ya just have to start over......


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## Tenbears

High ABV and flavor profile are as a rule generally not considered within the same mead. Many beer yeast utilize a fast somewhat hot ferment which can destroy the subtle nuances of the honey profile. I do however use some beer and ale yeasts if ferments where I am looking for specific profiles as they seem to develop those flavors well. Let me say this though, I used several bear and ale yeast for that reason years ago resulting in so great meads, However every one I have sent to competition got one thing hit constantly, Thin thready legs! Small point category but enough to forestall medaling. They may do better today in the right competition, because so many of the younger guys and gals today seem to accept small flaws if their is something of great merit to make the mead favorable.

"I am the type of person who likes to reach my goal, but not necessarily by walking the common path. Sometimes it works, sometimes it is a great adventure with good results, and sometimes ya just have to start over...... " I think all Masers are to a degree. Even after 50+ years of mead making I still look for new and different ways to produce interesting and flavorful meads even if I have to sacrifice a bit of one facet to get those results. 

Good Luck And enjoy the journey!


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## ducatidom

Tenbears said:


> High ABV and flavor profile are as a rule generally not considered within the same mead. Many beer yeast utilize a fast somewhat hot ferment which can destroy the subtle nuances of the honey profile. I do however use some beer and ale yeasts if ferments where I am looking for specific profiles as they seem to develop those flavors well. Let me say this though, I used several bear and ale yeast for that reason years ago resulting in so great meads, However every one I have sent to competition got one thing hit constantly, Thin thready legs! Small point category but enough to forestall medaling. They may do better today in the right competition, because so many of the younger guys and gals today seem to accept small flaws if their is something of great merit to make the mead favorable.
> 
> "I am the type of person who likes to reach my goal, but not necessarily by walking the common path. Sometimes it works, sometimes it is a great adventure with good results, and sometimes ya just have to start over...... " I think all Masers are to a degree. Even after 50+ years of mead making I still look for new and different ways to produce interesting and flavorful meads even if I have to sacrifice a bit of one facet to get those results.
> 
> Good Luck And enjoy the journey!


Being new to mead this is mostly a mental exercise at this point. But eventually I hope to be making more complex fermentations.


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## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> Sacking is a method of enticing a given yeast to stay (Alive) (Just a term the yeast goes dormant and actually does not die) beyond it's normal tolerances.


This is not the definition of a Sacked mead, this is just made up and misinformation! I would like to see the source that is being quoted here because I have never read it. Everything I have read defines a Sacked mead like this; Sack – that’s the name of a stronger mead, usually sweet, made with more honey than is typically used. The finished product contains a higher-than-average ethanol concentration (meads at or above 14% ABV are generally considered to be of sack strength). It often retains a high specific gravity and elevated levels of sweetness, although dry sack meads, with no residual sweetness, can also be produced. According to one theory, the name derives from the fortified dessert wine, sherry, that was once called “sack” in England. Another theory is that the term is a phonetic reduction of “sake” the name of the well-known Japanese beverage. Dr. Denard has shown you can sack a mead by step feeding honey as well. Prove this or retract it.....


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## Tenbears

ColoradoRaptor said:


> This is not the definition of a Sacked mead, this is just made up and misinformation! Dr. Denard has shown you can sack a mead by step feeding honey as well. Prove this or retract it.....


 As usual you are spewing off things you once again do not understand what you are talking about. Listen! Sach or SAC is a high alcohol mead, Sacking is the technique used to get it there. This Statement "Dr. Denard has shown you can sack a mead by step feeding honey as well" This would be one of the methods I was referring to! As unless one uses a yeast that has a high alcohol tolerance the yeast will Die before it reaches the high alcohol. Now tell me this Why does someone come to a beekeeping site simply to spew poor mead making techniques in a sub category that only has a few members. Funny how you started off when you came here saying you made mead by starting wit SG of 1.175 to 1.250 added 13% alcohol tolerance yeast and away we go. Then when I called you on it and stated it could not be done without sacking and even then could not achieve the ABV you were proclaiming. Now you have all of a sudden become a sac expert. 
I am a beekeeper who also happens to make mead! I offer my experiences with my fellow beekeepers so they can get started in making mead. I do so with sound advice and time tested techniques in a manner that makes success very attainable. I do not offer them complicated, or questionable methods that will surly result in problems for beginners. With all the sites dedicated to wine and mead making exclusively. Why is it You who does not appear to be a beekeeper as you have never posted in any bee related forums here on BEE source. join a Bee forum and go to a sub category to promote poor mead making and half baked ideology? I mean ain't this a rather small pond for a big fish such as yourself. :scratch:


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## ducatidom

So it is painfully obvious you guys disagree on stuff, lol.

Point of the thread was to explore the use of alternative yeasts(strong ale,saisson, other non-wine yeasts), and so far the concensus is yes. The yes includes a fair bit of extra work and more advanced technique, so not as noob friendly.


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## ColoradoRaptor

ducatidom said:


> So it is painfully obvious you guys disagree on stuff, lol.
> 
> Point of the thread was to explore the use of alternative yeasts(strong ale,saisson, other non-wine yeasts), and so far the concensus is yes. The yes includes a fair bit of extra work and more advanced technique, so not as noob friendly.


Yes, he and I disagree... I am not trying to bash him or anyone but he says things and has no reference backing it. I at least include links and reference to what I am saying. It is for the individual to determine if he wants to include what I have to say based on verifiable evidence. Yes, it is advantageous to use other yeasts for mead and some do require more attention and care but the results are very positive. I hope you try some of this as I have! I have shared my meads with many where I live and the consensus is that 
I should go commercial. I am not so sure myself but who knows  Happy fermenting!! :thumbsup:


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## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> As usual you are spewing off things you once again do not understand what you are talking about. Listen! Sach or SAC is a high alcohol mead, Sacking is the technique used to get it there. This Statement "Dr. Denard has shown you can sack a mead by step feeding honey as well" This would be one of the methods I was referring to! As unless one uses a yeast that has a high alcohol tolerance the yeast will Die before it reaches the high alcohol. Now tell me this Why does someone come to a beekeeping site simply to spew poor mead making techniques in a sub category that only has a few members. Funny how you started off when you came here saying you made mead by starting wit SG of 1.175 to 1.250 added 13% alcohol tolerance yeast and away we go. Then when I called you on it and stated it could not be done without sacking and even then could not achieve the ABV you were proclaiming. Now you have all of a sudden become a sac expert.
> I am a beekeeper who also happens to make mead! I offer my experiences with my fellow beekeepers so they can get started in making mead. I do so with sound advice and time tested techniques in a manner that makes success very attainable. I do not offer them complicated, or questionable methods that will surly result in problems for beginners. With all the sites dedicated to wine and mead making exclusively. Why is it You who does not appear to be a beekeeper as you have never posted in any bee related forums here on BEE source. join a Bee forum and go to a sub category to promote poor mead making and half baked ideology? I mean ain't this a rather small pond for a big fish such as yourself. :scratch:


LOL.... in all of that drivel you still failed to show where you get your facts! You say I claimed a SG of 1.250....... LOL...... more made up stuff from you... as I never said that! I did say 1.175 though! I also never claimed to be an expert of any kind though I did say that I have been doing this since 1986 which does indicate that I should know what I am doing. My advice is sound just as some of yours. I have offered no questionable advice to complicated for beginners and have even backed my advice with reference data/links. It's ok for you to question me but heaven forbid someone question you! For someone to grow and learn they need to practice and think out of the box, something you refuse to do. Instead of embracing new ideas you belittle and degrade those who offer them as if you are the author of The Complete Mead Maker! How did I come to be a member here? I research mead, honey and bee keeping. In the process I found this forum. I chose to become a member because I wanted to read about bee keeping. Why you ask, because I want to keep bees..... I just have to convince my wife first! My poor mead making and half baked ideology has received many good reviews from vintners, brewers, mazers and friends, one of which is a wine snob who is a distributor here in southern Colorado. You can say whatever you like about me or the advice I give but at least my advice can be referenced.


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## ducatidom

I will be trying alternative yeasts, but not quite yet. As they will take more care and technique I want to get a few batches under my belt. I am getting ready to bottle my first ever this week, after a few successful ferments with the more traditional wine yeasts I will be more comfortable branching out.


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## Vance G

You want simple? Choose EC-1118 and put 12 lbs of honey and a half pound of bee pollen in a brewing bucket and put an aquarium aereator and an air stone on it for three days at close to 70F. Transfer to a carboy and set in the dark above 65F. Whenever the air lock quits bubbling, check SG and add another pound of honey if the SG is below 1. If above 1, wait until it goes below and add another pound of honey. You will breed the hardiest yeast in the environment with high alcohol tolerance. Not hard to get 22% alcohol. I did it by accident the first time by using EC 1118 instead of the 71b the recipe called for. It took nearly two years to become drinkable but now it is exquisite. Expect any high alcohol mead to take quite a long time to become fit to drink. Not a new and technically SOOOO advanced method but it works fine. But you must be desperate if you need all that panty remover.


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## ducatidom

Not necessarily looking to create a high ABV, but to use the yeast as a natural "flavor". Those who brew beer will understand, as yeast strains for beer/ale are regarded for flavor profile as well as ABV. Most of the wine yeasts are/were developed to impart little change to the flavor profile of the must.


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## BadBeeKeeper

ColoradoRaptor said:


> This is not the definition of a Sacked mead, this is just made up and misinformation! I would like to see the source that is being quoted here because I have never read it. Everything I have read defines a Sacked mead like this; Sack – that’s the name of a stronger mead, usually sweet, made with more honey than is typically used...





Tenbears said:


> As usual you are spewing off things you once again do not understand what you are talking about. Listen! Sach or SAC is a high alcohol mead, Sacking is the technique used to get it there. This Statement "Dr. Denard has shown you can sack a mead by step feeding honey as well"...


Actually, Gentlemen, according to my 1980 edition of "Making Mead" by Dr. Roger A. Morse, who was a moderately eminent Professor of Apiculture at Cornell from 1957 until his retirement, he defines 'sack mead' simply as "sweet honey wine".

I can't quite remember exactly where I read it, perhaps in some one or another of Sir Kenelme Digbie's writings from the 1600s, but I seem to recall a description of making mead in an actual sack...I think there was something about a chicken too, but it escapes me at the moment.

There is also Bodog Beck's 1938 book "Honey and Health", in which he relates something of a tale of some 16- or 1700s reknowned mead-maker's product being likened to 'Canary Sack', a wine popular in Shakespeare's time.

Both of the above are possible and perhaps plausible considerations for the origin of the term.

At any rate, I think we can reasonably agree that a 'sack mead' is a very sweet mead, which can be arrived at by -either- starting at a very high gravity which exceeds the capability of the yeast to fully ferment, or by 'step-feeding' which accomplishes the same thing though perhaps with a higher alcohol content. 'Step-feeding' can create the higher alcohol content because of the variability of the yeast- in the initial ferment nearly all of the yeast are working, as the alcohol content increases some of those yeasts quit, leaving those with a higher tolerance. The gradual introduction of new food and oxygen allows some reproduction of more tolerant yeasts until their maximum limit is reached and no more fermentation occurs. Back in the good old days when I used to frequent the usenet groups rec.crafts.brewing and rec.crafts.meadmaking I think we called that 'blasting'.

So, a 'sack' mead can have a somewhat higher alcohol content, or a much higher alcohol content depending on the type of yeast and the process used, but it -must- be sweet.


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## Tenbears

ducatidom said:


> Not necessarily looking to create a high ABV, but to use the yeast as a natural "flavor". Those who brew beer will understand, as yeast strains for beer/ale are regarded for flavor profile as well as ABV. Most of the wine yeasts are/were developed to impart little change to the flavor profile of the must.


 A straight mead should have a bright but delicate nose, It's legs should be clear and well defined, it should fall upon the tongue lightly and excite the pallet. The finish should linger with notes of the honey's Varity. Leaving the drinker desiring another sip or glass. Although the yeast can and does play a role in bringing out the flavor profile of the mead. How one ferments the must can play a greater role. We are not looking to define the mead by it's bold coarseness as we do with ales or bears. but rather it's delicate subtleties, leaving one with a firm impression of the honey verities. I make a lot of Bochet, Bochetomel, Metheglin, and Melomels as well as other styles of Mead. often when doing so the flavor of the individual honey is lost or greatly diminished in the attempt to leave them with the desired flavor. Yes it always plays a role But how much depends on the process. The same is true of straight mead. The flavor profile can certainly be impacted by the yeast. However how we craft ur ferment can play a greater role. Avoiding things that can lead to off flavors is far more important. Such as Sanitation, of equipment, Ample Oxygenation at the onset of the ferment, maintaining a slow lower temperature ferment, proper yeast nutrition, Not stepping nutrients in too late in the ferment. Preventing oxidation late in the ferment of during the aging process, Not allowing wild yeast to play ANY role in the ferment. All these things should be mastered before worrying about experimenting with yeasts. For one to know if they are achieving the most from their meads they first must know what makes a quality mead. I have people say they do not boil their water or use purified water because honey is antiseptic. Which is true right up until you add that honey to the water. Then all bets are off! They claim they have done it that way for years and have never had a bad batch. How do they know if they have never followed proven methods that produce a proper mead. So many things can have an impact on the quality of a mead. Does it mean they are undrinkable. Certainly not! But they may very well have been a lot better had these measures been followed.


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## ducatidom

Tenbears, your above post is a direct reflection of why I am not willing to experiment with other yeasts at this point. I have not sampled a huge variety of commercial or homemade meads. So until I have more experience with "traditional" wine yeast ferments it does not seem, to me at least, to be beneficial to branch out. I am quite sure I will at some point in the future though......


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## ColoradoRaptor

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Actually, Gentlemen, according to my 1980 edition of "Making Mead" by Dr. Roger A. Morse, who was a moderately eminent Professor of Apiculture at Cornell from 1957 until his retirement, he defines 'sack mead' simply as "sweet honey wine".
> 
> I can't quite remember exactly where I read it, perhaps in some one or another of Sir Kenelme Digbie's writings from the 1600s, but I seem to recall a description of making mead in an actual sack...I think there was something about a chicken too, but it escapes me at the moment.
> 
> There is also Bodog Beck's 1938 book "Honey and Health", in which he relates something of a tale of some 16- or 1700s reknowned mead-maker's product being likened to 'Canary Sack', a wine popular in Shakespeare's time.
> 
> Both of the above are possible and perhaps plausible considerations for the origin of the term.
> 
> At any rate, I think we can reasonably agree that a 'sack mead' is a very sweet mead, which can be arrived at by -either- starting at a very high gravity which exceeds the capability of the yeast to fully ferment, or by 'step-feeding' which accomplishes the same thing though perhaps with a higher alcohol content. 'Step-feeding' can create the higher alcohol content because of the variability of the yeast- in the initial ferment nearly all of the yeast are working, as the alcohol content increases some of those yeasts quit, leaving those with a higher tolerance. The gradual introduction of new food and oxygen allows some reproduction of more tolerant yeasts until their maximum limit is reached and no more fermentation occurs. Back in the good old days when I used to frequent the usenet groups rec.crafts.brewing and rec.crafts.meadmaking I think we called that 'blasting'.
> 
> So, a 'sack' mead can have a somewhat higher alcohol content, or a much higher alcohol content depending on the type of yeast and the process used, but it -must- be sweet.


I agree, has to be sweet though I have read about dry sack meads. I cant even imagine that but hey someone apparently has tried it. I have read some of what you quoted, the Digbie stuff was interesting. Thanks!


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## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> A straight mead should have a bright but delicate nose, It's legs should be clear and well defined, it should fall upon the tongue lightly and excite the pallet. The finish should linger with notes of the honey's Varity. Leaving the drinker desiring another sip or glass. Although the yeast can and does play a role in bringing out the flavor profile of the mead. How one ferments the must can play a greater role. We are not looking to define the mead by it's bold coarseness as we do with ales or bears. but rather it's delicate subtleties, leaving one with a firm impression of the honey verities. I make a lot of Bochet, Bochetomel, Metheglin, and Melomels as well as other styles of Mead. often when doing so the flavor of the individual honey is lost or greatly diminished in the attempt to leave them with the desired flavor. Yes it always plays a role But how much depends on the process. The same is true of straight mead. The flavor profile can certainly be impacted by the yeast. However how we craft ur ferment can play a greater role. Avoiding things that can lead to off flavors is far more important. Such as Sanitation, of equipment, Ample Oxygenation at the onset of the ferment, maintaining a slow lower temperature ferment, proper yeast nutrition, Not stepping nutrients in too late in the ferment. Preventing oxidation late in the ferment of during the aging process, Not allowing wild yeast to play ANY role in the ferment. All these things should be mastered before worrying about experimenting with yeasts. For one to know if they are achieving the most from their meads they first must know what makes a quality mead. I have people say they do not boil their water or use purified water because honey is antiseptic. Which is true right up until you add that honey to the water. Then all bets are off! They claim they have done it that way for years and have never had a bad batch. How do they know if they have never followed proven methods that produce a proper mead. So many things can have an impact on the quality of a mead. Does it mean they are undrinkable. Certainly not! But they may very well have been a lot better had these measures been followed.


This I can relate to and I agree!


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## ColoradoRaptor

ducatidom said:


> I will be trying alternative yeasts, but not quite yet. As they will take more care and technique I want to get a few batches under my belt. I am getting ready to bottle my first ever this week, after a few successful ferments with the more traditional wine yeasts I will be more comfortable branching out.


I actually did not experiment much and used Lalvin yeast exclusively for many years. I made good meads that many have enjoyed but the last few years I have been digging pretty deep into mead trying to learn as much as I can. That is how I came across Dr. Denard and his experiments. I experimented with gallon batches but now my average batch is five gallons. I share a lot of my mead and drink my fare share as well, so I make in the neighborhood of 50 gallons a year. My wife can't drink wine and she hates beer so she drinks a lot of my mead as well. If you can afford it experiment with small batches while keeping your larger ones for what you are comfortable with. I have made several small batches of Sima trying to get the carbonation just right and have enjoyed drinking the experiments! I have a gruit bottled and waiting tasting that I made using Dr. Denards advice........ cant wait! The point I am making is that this is an enjoyable and delicious hobby so don't hold back! :thumbsup:


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## Tenbears

ColoradoRaptor said:


> LOL.... in all of that drivel you still failed to show where you get your facts! You say I claimed a SG of 1.250....... LOL...... more made up stuff from you... as I never said that! I did say 1.175 though! I also never claimed to be an expert of any kind though I did say that I have been doing this since 1986 which does indicate that I should know what I am doing. My advice is sound just as some of yours. I have offered no questionable advice to complicated for beginners and have even backed my advice with reference data/links. It's ok for you to question me but heaven forbid someone question you! For someone to grow and learn they need to practice and think out of the box, something you refuse to do. Instead of embracing new ideas you belittle and degrade those who offer them as if you are the author of The Complete Mead Maker! How did I come to be a member here? I research mead, honey and bee keeping. In the process I found this forum. I chose to become a member because I wanted to read about bee keeping. Why you ask, because I want to keep bees..... I just have to convince my wife first! My poor mead making and half baked ideology has received many good reviews from vintners, brewers, mazers and friends, one of which is a wine snob who is a distributor here in southern Colorado. You can say whatever you like about me or the advice I give but at least my advice can be referenced.


 Realy



ColoradoRaptor said:


> Completely agree, everyone's palate is unique though many do prefer dry. I on the other hand can't stand dry wine or mead and thoroughly enjoy all those sweet yummy calories  My current batch, which is still fermenting started 1.250 it was so high it was clean off the hydrometer, it took 2 days to reach 1.170!!! .... I used 4 gallons Reisling grape juice and 1.5 gallons of wildflower honey and my 3 day Wyeast starter giving me 6 gallons of yummy goodness.... can't wait! I am mostly through my last batch which was a Muscot and Clover mix at 20% ABV ... YUMMY!!


 "one of which is a wine snob who is a distributor here in southern Colorado". 

Reference please Name and phone number will do!

here is mine.
Making Mead: A Complete Guide to the Making of Sweet and Dry Mead
Make Mead Like a Viking
The Complete Meadmaker : Home Production of Honey Wine
Making Your Own Mead: by Peter Duncan and Bryan Acton
The Secret Art of Mead Making by Will Kalif
Making Mead (Honey Wine): History, Recipes, Methods and Equipment by Roger a Morse (better known for his beekeeping Books)
Making Mead: A Complete Guide to the Making of Sweet and Dry Mead, Melomel, Metheglin, Hippocras, Pyment and Cyser by Bryan Acton
Making Wild Wines & Meads by Midwest Homebrewing and Winemaking 
Making Mead the art and science.
and the countless hundreds of library books on classic techniques Anchent fermentation and any other topic which may contain mead and or wine making between 1963 to present. 

OH! Read them everything I have said is in there. Unlike you I read before I claim I know NOT AFTER! I was making Mead long before it was popular, and Long before books were available exclusively on wine and mead making! When research was gathering information from library and science books and piecing it together. BUT, I am not here to tout my credentials, But rather help those interested in making a quality mead without inciting difficulties for them.


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## ducatidom

CR, I am only running 1 gallon batches at present. Both for cider and mead. I am just reentering the brewing world and am trying to stay fairly simple. I mostly drink cider these days so that is where I started up again. Then caught a bunch of articles and blogs etc... that also had info on mead, that led me to my batch of cyser that I posted on here. Another reason for the small batches is that I am pretty much the only one drinking it, so I can tweak recipes/change yeasts quicker, a 5 gallon batch would leave me with too much drinking to do in between batches!


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## BadBeeKeeper

ColoradoRaptor said:


> I actually did not experiment much and used Lalvin yeast exclusively for many years...I have made several small batches of Sima trying to get the carbonation just right and have enjoyed drinking the experiments!...


For carbonated, I use Red Star champagne yeast. Very dry, of course.



ducatidom said:


> ...a 5 gallon batch would leave me with too much drinking to do in between batches!


Too much drinking? Bite your tongue, there is no such thing!


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## ColoradoRaptor

BadBeeKeeper said:


> For carbonated, I use Red Star champagne yeast. Very dry, of course.


I have been using ec 1118 for my sima experiments. The traditional recipe calls for bread yeast but I have A LOT of ec 1118 on hand so I use it. It also calls for only 12 hours of fermentation then bottling with some sugar and raisins. When the raisins float the drink is ready ...... supposedly but that method over carbonates and I loose about a quarter of my bottle when opened. So I have been timing after bottling to see just how long I can leave them before cold crashing them. These experiments have been very tasty with a low ABV carbonated lemonade 



BadBeeKeeper said:


> Too much drinking? Bite your tongue, there is no such thing!


Exactly, no such thing


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## BadBeeKeeper

ColoradoRaptor said:


> I have been using ec 1118 for my sima experiments. The traditional recipe calls for bread yeast but I have A LOT of ec 1118 on hand so I use it. It also *calls for only 12 hours of fermentation then bottling with some sugar and raisins*. When the raisins float the drink is ready ...... supposedly but that method over carbonates and I loose about a quarter of my bottle when opened. So I have been timing after bottling to see just how long I can leave them before cold crashing them. These experiments have been very tasty with a low ABV carbonated lemonade


Ack, I would not do that, sounds like a good recipe for bottle-bombs. I control the ABV with the starting gravity, ferment to completion then prime with a measured amount of honey just like I would do for ale. The champagne yeast ensures that tolerance is not exceeded (as long as the OG is low enough) and enough yeast remain to carbonate.


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## Tenbears

ColoradoRaptor said:


> I have been using ec 1118 for my sima experiments. The traditional recipe calls for bread yeast but I have A LOT of ec 1118 on hand so I use it. It also calls for only 12 hours of fermentation then bottling with some sugar and raisins. When the raisins float the drink is ready ...... supposedly but that method over carbonates and I loose about a quarter of my bottle when opened. So I have been timing after bottling to see just how long I can leave them before cold crashing them. These experiments have been very tasty with a low ABV carbonated lemonade
> 
> 
> Exactly, no such thing


 Bad techniques that will simply result in problems for the one following them are one thing, If you follow advice and it ruins your mead oh well. But this kind of stuff is dangerous. am I the only one who see it? That's crazy talk!


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## ColoradoRaptor

That which I described is the technique used for many many years in Finland! You can call it what ever you want, makes no difference to me!


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## Tenbears

ColoradoRaptor said:


> That which I described is the technique used for many many years in Finland! You can call it what ever you want, makes no difference to me! It's older than you and your opinion means nothing. This is why we disagree, you with your doctorate are not as informed as you should be! Please stop talking to me, you and your opinion are meaningless.....


I tried that weeks ago! But if you for one minute think I am going to allow you to quote me and make demeaning, insulting remarks and let it go you are sadly mistaken. When you stop promoting poor and now dangerous methodology I will say nothing about your antics. BTW Blood letting was once considered Medicine!


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## Ben Brewcat

Personal attacks are NOT tolerated nor welcome on Beesource: differences of opinion may be expressed as such, but keep it civil.


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## BadBeeKeeper

ColoradoRaptor said:


> That which I described is the technique used for many many years in Finland!


The fact that somebody somewhere did something some way for many years does not mean it is the best way, or even necessarily a -good- way.

As Tenbears points out, there have been many things done over the years that somebody thought was a good idea, but it really wasn't.

Bottling something before it has fermented to completion is not a good idea, no matter who has done it how many times in the past.


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## I'llbeedan

Now add that to the fact that many beginners piece meal bits of information from many sources. imagine if one got some Champaign bottles and stoppers and wired them on! They would latterly be using "THE BOOM METHOD"
:ws:


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## ColoradoRaptor

BadBeeKeeper said:


> The fact that somebody somewhere did something some way for many years does not mean it is the best way, or even necessarily a -good- way.
> 
> As Tenbears points out, there have been many things done over the years that somebody thought was a good idea, but it really wasn't.
> 
> Bottling something before it has fermented to completion is not a good idea, no matter who has done it how many times in the past.


It's a practice still conducted today in Finland for the celebration of Vappu! The process is not intended for aging, it is intended for consumption within days of production. Cold crashing is more than sufficient to prevent bottle bombs! This is why I said that too many mazers limit their knowledge by seeing mead making through a vintners eyes. Yes, mead is made using wine making techniques because that is how most everyone gets taught ...... including me. Mead has a history older than beer or wine! There are many things that have been lost to history because beer and wine are the popular fermented drinks in todays society. As far as dangerous goes.... getting into your car and driving around is more dangerous than any thing I have mentioned. If you view it to dangerous, that is your prerogative and your right but your view is just that yours.


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## ColoradoRaptor

I'llbeedan said:


> Now add that to the fact that many beginners piece meal bits of information from many sources. imagine if one got some Champaign bottles and stoppers and wired them on! They would latterly be using "THE BOOM METHOD"
> :ws:


If someone does that they deserve the consequences! Everything I do, I research it thoroughly before attempting it! With that said, I am not afraid of bottle bombs, have had much worse while deployed. I for the record have never had any bottle bombs either..... knock on wood :lookout:


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## I'llbeedan

ColoradoRaptor said:


> If someone does that they deserve the consequences! I am not afraid of bottle bombs, have had much worse while deployed. I for the record have never had any bottle bombs either..... knock on wood :lookout:


 "they deserve the consequences" Are you serious? someone could get seriously injured.


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## ColoradoRaptor

I'llbeedan said:


> "they deserve the consequences" Are you serious? someone could get seriously injured.


Are you serious??

1. Life is full of risk.

2. Without risk there is little success. 

3. You must be 21 to produce and consume alcohol and at that age you should be smart enough not to do something risky without full knowledge of what you are doing and accepting the risk involved. 

4. I was raised by a loving family that insisted that if I was willing to do something that I also had to be willing to accept the consequences of my actions. 

So yes, I am serious! If you disagree that is your prerogative. But to blatantly say " Are you serious" like I am stupid or foolish is very presumptive! And I stand by what I said, if someone is foolish enough to do something risky without understanding what they are doing they deserve the consequences of their said actions! How else do we humans progress than by learning from our mistakes.


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## I'llbeedan

Yes I wanted to know if you were serious or just joking. It is sometimes hard to tell as some of your stuff is ridiculously funny.

For one you do not have to be 21 to brew wine and Mead. and I defy you to show me any federal law that states you do. You cannot drink it until you are 21 but there are no federal laws prohibiting making it. In fact a person of 18 years of age can apply for a vintners license. And in some states My home state included you do not even have to be 21 to work as a bartender!

Secondly This is the world wide web Meaning that people from all over the world have access to it. In Italy it is quite common for children as young as 10 to be involved with making as well as consuming wine and mead. 

Your total lack of compassion and disregard for the safety of your fellow man is appalling. 

Let us suppose an beginning mead maker of 21 years of age makes a mead following your idea. and as I said wants to preserve the sparkle and puts it in a Champaign bottle with a stopper and wires the stopper on because along with your advice he has also read that this is the best thing to do with a sparkling mead. he places the bottles in his basement on the shelf next to the washing machine. A month later his wife is doing the laundry while his beautiful 3 year old daughter plays on the floor beside mom. When all of a sudden one of the bottles bursts setting off a chain reaction of bursting bottles. The lady is seriously scared over her entire right side and the child I blinded. 
Did they deserve it? No one deserves to be injured needlessly. and it shows a callus disregard for human life to think we are all not responsible to look out for our fellow man! I think you sir take Colorado's amendment 64 to seriously!


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## ColoradoRaptor

I am not going to try and defy you on the age for brewing. I have seen no federal law for such just figured the consumption law applied to production as well. Yes, this is the WWW and the world has access to it, this forum and I are based here in the good ole US of A and that is the basis for my comment. 
Let's suppose this beginning mead makers wife and child hop into the family Prius and head to the local grocery store and on the way there are T boned by Jonny Bobby Socks who was running late for work and blew a stop sign killing them? Did they deserve it? I know this does not relate exactly but my point is sometimes we are victims of others stupidity..... just sayin. 
Amendment 64..... :lpf: ...... sure, just because it's legal here does not mean I partake! I am Federal Law Enforcement after all..... :lpf:


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