# My disasterous beehive removal attempt



## pjigar (Sep 13, 2016)

You need a bee vac man.


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## omnimirage (Aug 31, 2015)

How likely will the bees abscond at the property where I took them? I really don't want to go back there, would it be safe for them to spray any remaining bees with fly spray? Or will I need to go back there myself and spray/scoop into a box? I'm not prepared to leave a nucleus there as then I'll have to return a fourth time.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

The bees were in that crate? Looked like an easy removal to me. How much research did you do on removals before you attempted?


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## omnimirage (Aug 31, 2015)

They were in the crate. I didn't do any research.

I managed to get the hive out of the car before the sun came up, was difficult to get a grip, I needed to press the sticky hive against my body to bring it out. I managed to hold it and was glad, thinking I could potentially walk it the 15 steps I needed to put it out of the way... I got 2 steps in before I felt I was going to drop it, so I put it down, a bit too quicly a bunch of angry bees came out when it banged against the ground, on the sidewalk of a suburbian street. I went to go pick it up but realised I couldn't, realised I couldn't leave it where it was... so I just dragged it to closer to my house. The bees got pretty pissed by such so I ran. I only got stung twice so I consider that quite a success.

I took a photo and figured I'd share. First is the hive, notice how it's not in place, and there's honey oozing around it. The second is a nucleus that's full of comb. Since I didn't have a bucket I filled that up instead, there's some brood and bees in it. The second photo is the back of my car where the hive was sitting. Note all the honey that oozed out. So much more honey oozed out at the actual site.

http://imgur.com/a/WSuvX

I haven't received a phone call or message. I'm going to assume that the situation is dealt with and not worry about it until they message me, and if they do so I'll go back and finish the job. I'll take a box to scoop whatever bees I can, and spray to deal with the rest.

I have to have this hive moved in four days time. I can take more photos when I open it up if there's an interest.


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## jakec (May 26, 2015)

awesome thread! I wish you had video.


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## Northwest PA Beekeeper (Mar 28, 2012)

I guess I'm confused why you didn't borrow a pick up truck and load the crate onto it and take it to your house. You could have unloaded it and then took your time removing them.

If you didn't get the queen, chances are she is still back at the original site with the other bees. If there is no comb left - they are probably all in a cluster.


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## TexasFreedom (Feb 25, 2016)

Omnimirage,

First, I'm sorry you had so much trouble. But your name is perfect for this topic. "Omni" (all-encompassing) "Mirage" (false illusion of something nice that isn't there).

You were under the illusion that cutouts are simple & easy.

Other are giving you good advice. For example, if you're going to do this, a vacuum makes it 10 times easier.

BUT, the point I want to make for you and others considering this is: PLEASE go with an experienced beekeeper who's done multiple cutouts to learn HOW to do this. Even if you do research, actually being there is completely different. Be an assistant to them for a few cutouts. Learn, get some experience before you go out alone. You will avoid countless mistakes that affect you AND other people living near the hive. It will not only help people, but also help the colony survive. Even at this point you should find a mentor to see how it should be done.

Good luck.


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## omnimirage (Aug 31, 2015)

I didn't get any word from then for a few days, but then they rung me and told me that the bees were still there. I instructed him to get a few types of poisons I've heard about from the local hardware store, and I went to the property, intending to scoop whatever bees I could into a new nuc, and then place poison around there so there's no stragglers.

The bees were there that morning when I received the phone call. By later that evening, they had buggered off, before I got there.

I ended up fixing up their hive. I essentially abandoned all the comb without brood; I've truly learned a lesson there. The comb that had brood in it, I placed it on top of the hive mat. I wasn't sure if this was best, as I've been told online to strap the comb via rubberbands, but I've done such in the past and it's worked well. 

I didn't see any signs of queen, but I did see two things in the hive that looked like were a queen cocoon. I wanted to get a photo to post online, to get a verification either way or not.


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## TexasFreedom (Feb 25, 2016)

Omni,

One more bit of advice (ok, a few). When in doubt, step away from the hive. Too often more problems are caused by going back again and again rather than letting the bees resolve their issues.

If you saw a peanut, that's great news. It means you most likely missed the queen and they had the eggs to make a new one. In fact they probably made a few queens and you missed the others. 

My best advice would be to leave them alone for a number of weeks at this point. Your inexperience will more likely damage queen cells (or kill the new queen) than help. Let them finish getting a new queen. Let that queen mate for a couple of weeks and settle down and start laying eggs. They have brood so they will getting new bees for a couple of weeks. They have enough honey to feed everyone.

in two months, you can go into the hive and do some more 'straightening out'. By then they will have their queen in full swing with brood starting to emerge again. Their numbers will take a drop but begin recovering. Inside it'll be a mess, but it will be their mess and they will make it functional. 

Actually, I might even go one step further. Don't go down into the brood area until next year. Add supers as needed, but don't mess with anything. NEXT year go in and make a split. It will be a mess, but they will be fully recovered and strong enough to handle splitting. Or maybe rather than splitting, you can take out enough of the 'mess' to end up with just one 'clean' functional hive. 

Me, personally, having a 'clean' setup without inter-tied frames in the brood chamber means NOTHING to me. But my hives are all survival bees, hearty as anything. I might go into the brood once a year, if I want to make splits. I also don't go into my neighbor's house and re-arrange their furniture for how I want it. These bees have made things because that's what they want and they live there (and they can rearrange how they want and when they want, why fight them?). And remember that every time you go into the brood chamber, the queen will stop laying eggs for a day due to the disruption.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

TexasFreedom said:


> And remember that every time you go into the brood chamber, the queen will stop laying eggs for a day due to the disruption.


I am not so sure about that.

Alex


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## omnimirage (Aug 31, 2015)

Thanks for the suggestions TexasFreedom. I ended up opening the hive, as I want to see if they have a queen, or whether I'll need to find some eggs from another hive to give them. I took some photos:

https://imgur.com/a/vztJe

In photos 2-4, there's the comb that has what looks like the queen cell. There were two half a week ago, now one has a hole in it, appears that a queen hatched and released. The other one looks mangled and weird, not really sure what happened. 

I pulled out some frames, to see if I could see the queen, but they got angry so I let them be. They don't appear to be touching the brood on the mat much; maybe such isn't an effective idea. Would have it been best to strap it to the frames instead with rubber bands?

They seem slow to be building. There's not many bees, or comb or much of anything. I left a nuc with a bunch of honey on the bottom next to it, thinking they could eat it, but they weren't interested so I cleaned it and put it away.

Hope they survive the winter. I've got some honey that's unfit for human consumption. I'm going to keep them at home, and if they look like they're struggling, I figure I'll dilute said honey and give them some. Just hope they have a laying queen.


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## TexasFreedom (Feb 25, 2016)

omnimirage said:


> Thanks for the suggestions TexasFreedom. I ended up opening the hive, as I want to see if they have a queen, or whether I'll need to find some eggs from another hive to give them. I took some photos:
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/vztJe
> 
> ...


Omni,

You continue to do things that show you really could use a mentor. You started with the colony in a big section of the box and got them into 2 supers. And now it looks like you've reduced them to a nuc? Any brood that was allowed to chill likely are dead. If the bees aren't covering the brood then it's likely abandoned and dead. If you look at a calendar, all brood from when you did the cutout would by now have emerged (or in the next day or two excluding drones). In fact I'm not understanding what you have, what is the 'mat'? I would always rubber band brood into frames, keeping it vertical and same 'up' orientation as when removed.

Another thing is you mentioned you left honey comb on 'on the bottom next to it'? Inside the hive, or is that the nuc in the pictures? If you leave honey outside the hive, you are begging for robbers.

The peanuts are queen cells, and it does look like one emerged. The first virgin queen to emerge runs around and stings/kills all other queen cells.

Honestly, PLEASE find a local BK to come see what you've got and give you some hands-on advice. If you have a virgin queen, great. It'll be weeks before she's laying. Do they have the resources to recover? Are they protected from raiders? How is the comb oriented and secured? So many questions. Someone with experience stopping by in 5 minutes will be able to tell you how best to maximize their survival chances.


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## omnimirage (Aug 31, 2015)

I could benefit from a mentor, but not sure where I'd find one. I'm planning on joining a local beekeeping amateur club sometime soon, which should be a good educational source.

I reduced them to a nuc, because it's all the space they need. It's a very weak, small hive at this point.

Interesting about the brood chilling and dying from that. I'm guessing that's probably what happened. It's getting cold here at night, and the lid isn't even sealed properly. Last time when I placed the brood comb on the lid and had success, it was during Australian summer, so the cold probably wouldn't have mattered.

I was taught to use a mat; from what I've gathered, it's more commonplace in Australia compared to internationally. I've sometimes not had a mat in the hive, and the bees end up extending their comb and glueing it to the lid. I believe if one doesn't use a mat, then one must instead use an inner cover (think that's what it's called anyway). From what I've gathered, these aren't used in Australia due to temperature differences.

I left the honey in another super, that used to have these bees in it. People have told me about robbing before but it's never been an issue for me. Bees seem to always just ignore these surplus of honey that's laying about, eventually the ants get to it but even they are surpinsngly slow. I'm guessing there's just enough nectar sources where I'm at that such isn't an issue.

I'm honestly not sure if they have enough resources. I figure I'll give them some diluted honey later if I observe that they're struggling. Raiders haven't ever been an issue and I doubt they will be. There's no comb on the frames, it's all sitting on the mat.


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## TexasFreedom (Feb 25, 2016)

Omni,

You can find local BK groups here in the USA multiple ways. My local group has a yahoo group discussion. Look on Craigslist for people who will do bee removal, they can link you to groups. Or even try the local agriculture gov't office, they most likely have contacts. The local utility company likely have contacts, people they call when they have a hive in a water meter or near power lines.

There are lots of ways to reach out for help, but you need to initiate it.

With every thing you write, I see more things that are wrong. Not minor things, major MAJOR issues. Laying comb flat should never be done. An inner cover is nice, I always use them. Putting honey comb in an un-occupied super is asking for trouble. Wasting it with ants? Sooner or later that will lead to robbing, and a weak hive getting robbed means death. Bees need a certain number to generate heat to keep brood warm so they can strengthen numbers. And I didn't realize you're in Australia. You may have a nice virgin queen, but there are likely no drones. So she likely will not get bred properly, hence no future female workers.

Can you see the endless list of issues? PLEASE, find someone local to mentor you. NOW.


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## omnimirage (Aug 31, 2015)

I didn't know that about the flat comb. Why is such bad to do? I did wonder if it was bad due to the bees not then easily being able to access the underside of the comb.

I didn't put honeycomb in an unoccupied super; it was already there, from when I removed the hive.

Inner covers aren't used or recommended in Australia.

I've been experimenting with diffeerent things since I've started beekeeping. One thing I've tried a few times, is putting my used honey strainers, or honeyjars, out there for the bees to eat, which is when I've observed that the bees mostly ignore the honey and the ants get to it first.

Again I've never had an issue with robbing. The bees ignoring surplus amounts of honey just lying about. I don't believe robbing is a risk where I'm stationing this particular hive. There's lots of things for them to eat around here, and I suppose not a huge amount of bees.

There are drone bees I've spotted them, fortunatley.


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## TexasFreedom (Feb 25, 2016)

Drone in the cells sit horizontal. When ready to emerge, they come out the face side of the comb. If it's face down against the mat, they can't get out. And facing upward, well it's just not their natural orientation.

For the honey, cells normally are tilted downward. The reason is that honey doesn't just drip out. Turn honey comb downward, and as soon as they uncap it the honey will run out.

On the other things, I'm not familiar with methods in Australia. I'm not sure why they would be any different than in the US, but different regions have different preferences.

Whether you took the hive from the super with honeycomb, or you just put it there is the same thing (unprotected honey). Bees ignoring open honey is really odd. If it's cold, windy, raining, etc, sure. But on a normal foraging day? Again, all the more reason for you to work with someone local.


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## omnimirage (Aug 31, 2015)

Good to know! Is that the case for brood, lady worker bees as well? Or do just the male drones struggle to push themselves up? I made sure that there was no brood underneath the comb. Never realised there was an orientation thing with the comb.

Well the unprotected honey was sitting there for a week, and at most there was never more than a few bees in the box. They weren't interested. They once took a liking to a sticky strainer I gave them, I had to put it right in front of their entrance, and they still weren't as interested in such as one would think. I find it a little pecuiliar honestly.

And I'm talking about normal foraging days.


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## Brub58 (Jan 11, 2017)

What you are doing is in contravention of Australia's biosecurity regulations and is therefore illegal. Please stop leaving honey in the open. Are you even registered? All registered beekeepers recieved a copy of biosecurity handbook over the last few months.


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## omnimirage (Aug 31, 2015)

I don't leave honey out anymore, I did that when I was new, experimenting and didn't know any better. Yes I'm registered but I've never received this book.


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