# My Steps to become a Commercial Beekeeper - Needing Critique



## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

Alright, I'm needing someone to drag me over the coals on this to see if there are any mistakes that I'm making right off in my direction to become a commercial beekeeper.

Goal: Increase 7 of my hives into 28 by next year with splits and grafting queens.

Current situation:


Kentucky location 3 miles from I-75 (Florida and Maine Transports access when future buildup is enough)
100 acres of rural land in one county and in adjacent county 50 acres for redundancy
Currently have 12 hives (2 Italian 10 carniolans): Using double deeps and pure wax on each (Italians were last year 3lb and carnies were this years splits from local supplier. Considering 30% loss or around 7-8 hives to survive this time next year. 
Currently placing for "free" 2 hives on 2 different local farmers locations for pollination of fruit orchard and farm gardens for resume building
Offered State Apiarist "free" assistance at my own expense for extra experience
Member of two local beekeeping associations
2nd year "official" beekeeper, although put on first beekeeping suit at age 5
Numerous beekeeping classes on queen rearing, splits, grafting as well as in depth study (Doolittle, Pellett, Alley etc).
2015 to take Master Beekeeper from EAS for self-gratification reasons.
Work full-time as Network Engineer at local company
Have "small scale" extraction/melters/storage tank equipment as well as about 30 shallow supers.
Plan to overwinter hives in Kentucky for a few years.
This years surplus (if any) is being bottled and donated to local shelters.

Need to purchase this week at local Dadant to make 28 extra hives:


56 Medium Economy supers (2 mediums x 28 new hives): $467.60
560 Medium Frames (using 10 frames per medium 56 x 10=560). Purchase of 600 medium wooden wedge top bar/grooved bottom bar: = $501.60 
560 Medium brood foundation 100% beeswax (using hair pins to hold foundation): Purchase of 600 = $419.20
28 commercial covers (10fr): $309.40
28 standard wooden bottom boards: $373.10
Total = $2070.90 plus tax and a few extra expenses.

Am I missing anything? Would you do something different (plastic, screened, telescoping covers, deeps)? Recommendations on if turning 7 into 28 is too much at one time? Any and all feedback (good or bad) is going to be extremely helpful for me before I start into this.

Ok, ready for the coals.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

This is interesting and amusing at the same time. But, at what point are you commercial and why do you want that to be your goal. I would kind of think that you might want to find a spot that works in your life be it 10 or 100. Is your goal to do nothing else then have bee's are you going to pollinate or raise queens or nuc's.? What is the end goal.? You will make way more as a network engineer. Trust me I know.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

I find it interesting that people always use the words commercial and full time interchangeably. If someone with 50 hives claims that they are a commercial beekeeper, the full time guys get offended, yet if he is running them on apples or another pollination contract, or even selling honey, isnt he in commerce? At what point are people "Commercial"? I understand that once a person starts supplimenting their household income with income from bees, then they are technically a "Sideliner", but wouldnt that also put them in the "commercial" status?
I just had this discussion with the local USDA lady and she said that the USDA uses the fact that if a person keeps bees for profit and has a legitimate bee business then they can help them with CCD and ELAP.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

Long term goals are to migrate from a network engineer to do beekeeping even if its cuts 1/2 or more of my pay. I want this to be my goal because of self love for the profession, environmental concerns, working along side with my father in the business before he passes away, and day to day interaction with corporate bureaucracy, which I know I'll still have to deal with, but on a lesser scale. I will be doing nucs, queens, pollination, training as well as any surplus sales. End goal is to pass this along to my son, thus grandchildren. 

I understand there is a number tied to being "commercial", but this is my short term to get to whatever numbers is finally evolving as being commercial. Trust me, I'm not here to offend commercial folks, which is the reason I'm posting in commercial and not simply another portion of this forum which could yield a different answer for small scale equipment and methods. Simply asking if this is a good route to go in terms of types of equipment as well as the ramping that I'm doing or "what would you do differently" mentoring someone wanting to go this route.

I find it amusing as well when someone that wants to get into networking asks what books they need to study in order to "get to my level" in engineering. Although, I'm quickly taken back to the day that I was asking the same question when I first started. Everyone has to get there someway.

NY Blues, I agree with you on what point does one technically become commercial, if you sell 1000lb of honey for 1 cent, technically your in the commerce business, but in terms of "commercial beekeeper", it appears to me the number keeps changing as the profession gets more attention in my opinion.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

It sounds to me as though you are taking great care to afford yourself the possibility of a smooth transition. While I cannot comment from a position of experience on whether you are doing things the right way, it does sound as though you are wondering if you have left out any of the 'essential ingredients' that will be needed once you do make the full transition. Some of these will be determined by your goals. So, what is it that you imagine doing once you have arrived at that point sometime in the future?

In my work world the planning process starts with a vision, and then a strategic plan to make that reality is developed. Then, the work begins. It sounds like you have a strategic plan and have undertaken the work needed to make your vision a reality. But, for others to help you to identify if you are on track toward attaining your vision, they'll need to know what that vision is.

Pete


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Angel: You are certainly not offending me. I admire everything you are doing and wish you well, obviously beekeeping is a release and a labor of love for you. My advice is to keep on keepin on and to operate as a sideliner though you may well find there will be a shortage of hours in the day at some point. I wouldn't be too concerned about titles. In my mind if your goal is a fair return on investment for the hours and money you have invested then you are operating your bees with the mindset of a commercial beekeeper. The exact number of hives is irrelevant. Many that post on here are commercial sideliners, in that they are also involved in other commercial endeavors, such as farming. Yet they run their bees as a profit making enterprise and file (or plan to file) a schedule F.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

How do your actual numbers support this Plan? You are talking about a 400% increase in one year. Have you ever actually made a 400% increase? What did it take what where the costs and how did you do it? I will say I have and I do not consider it all that difficult, but it is expensive. I will also add that it makes the increase in management skills difficult to keep up with.

I am attempting a 900% increase this year. so far I have nearly tripled the size of my apiary and have not even started the increase attempt yet.

Finally I will say have your plan well engrained in your head. focus on it often. the actual day to day management of the apiary has a tremendous ability to wipe your plan right out of your head. Do not make last minute changes. they also cause you to loose a high degree of control.

Last year my main problem was lack of equipment. this year I have plenty of equipment and cannot get queens mated. Be ready to trouble shoot anything and everything. have alternative plans for everything. Make a budget and stick to it. Money from any income should be pre allocated and much care needs to be made to get those dollars where they are needed. I know for me my management on the fly is not nearly as good as that management where I was able to take my time and think things through. Realize when you need to just close everything up and set on it for a day or two.

Finally nothing goes as planned so don't be to fond of your first one.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

Chemguy, yes you are exactly right, that's what I'm wondering "if I have left out some essential steps/ingredients that are a show stopper or entry level mistake". I do have a business plan that is constantly changing and being updated with different turns as I go.

Jim, thank you for your nice comments. As far as the title, I think its more of a way to "force me" in a way to learn some of the stuff that I don't care too much about (ex: enzyme content in pollen) or will never use on a day to day basis but could be of use someday. Great advice on the mindset scenario, that will keep my sanity over the years. I'm the type that its never good enough or I'm never happy enough with what I do.

Daniel, I have never made a 400% increase. I'll know my increase skills when I start doing this venture. I do know its expensive, but at this point money is no issue with what I'm enjoying doing. For the management skills, I have a business plan laid out with "what if" scenarios and plan "b"s if something goes wrong. Great advice on the apiary taking over vision and no last minute changes (I can see all this happening).

This year I about ran out of equipment, which was a panic mode and scrambling to gather vendors to get things shipped out in time. This is why I'm planning on next year increases here in June as well as having the equipment ready beforehand. My budget is right on track since I've started and I'm so far in a straight line with my business plan. (so far).

Thanks for everyone's replies. Very helpful and encouraging!


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Gee moving from computers to commercial level beekeeping is quite an undertaking. It certainly can be done and maybe quicker than you think. One huge advantage you have right now is you can take 100% of the money you earn in your endeavor and invest it back into your business. Whether it's boxes, bees, trucks, extracting equipment or anything else you don't need that money to live comfortably as you already make that money in your computer geek job.

Sounds like you are on the right steps. Do yourself a favor and make sure you can keep bees thru to the winter successfully before getting too many and lose too many. Other than that geek away during the day and keep bees in the evenings and weekends till as Jim pointed out you start to run out of time.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Can't comment on your bee business plan (not qualified as I am a bee-beginner).

But one thing really stood out for me: you mentioned your long term goal is to have a business to pass down to your son. How old is he? If he's still a child I strongly recommend tossing that romantic dream straight into the trash can, at least for now.

Your son may, or more likely, may not have any interest in being a beekeeper. Why saddle him with the heavy burden of _your_ expectations for _his_ life choices? Build your business to financial stability for its own sake, not as a family business. As he matures, if he's interested in it, involve him in a low key way. You may think that the long hours, hard work, and unending financial uncertainty that go along with ALL forms of agriculture are balanced by the undoubted rewards of that life style but he may have a completely different viewpoint, having been raised in it and watching you manage your bee business. For him, corporate cubicle culture may seem like Nirvana.

I write this because I am a farmer (vegetables). It's my chosen way to make a living. My husband, on the other hand, grew up on a farm and wanted nothing to do with it as a life's work. Luckily for him his parents always encouraged him to follow his own interests. And for him, going to work every day in the corporate world is what makes him happy.

Since the bee business isn't a primarily land-based form of agriculture (meaning you don't need to own the land) you can build your business and meet your own need to work in it, and still have a valuable, inheritable asset which could be sold to if your son's career interests are different from yours. Meanwhile don't constrain his exploration of where his own talents and vocation take him.

Enj.


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## sweetas (Apr 16, 2012)

HI Angel
I'm surprised you have had so many replies so quickly. The debate on what is "commercial" and what is "not commercial" I won't get into. I will accept that you being 'commercial" is that you want to make some money out of your bees. Fair enough. 

Being "commercial" is a combination of production and marketing. That can be a "chicken or egg" situation. Without production you have nothing to market. Without marketing you won't sell your production.Which comes first. A good question. 


You can establish a market by buying in honey then up production to meet that demand. If you don't have a viable marketing plan you may be stuck with your production which does involve costs.

When I did my first extraction after 47 years I got 70 kg of honey. As some-one that does not eat honey I thought what on earth am I going to do with that. Well, I spilt about 25 kg so that go rid of some. Gave some away to family and friends. That go rid of more. For the first year I wondered what I could do with my production. Fairly desperate to sell my honey. My marketing improved so I now sell about 200 kg of honey a week. I can't produce enough to satisfy demand.



So what should come first, I'm welcome to suggestions

My advice, I'm not sure what to say. 

Do your best and enjoy yourself.

Geoff


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

'Much good advice, and nice to see. Keep organized records of the time you spend, and how much is spent on the various tasks. 'Same with your successes and failures. Time will be your biggest asset and/or your greatest enemy. Review records regularly, and adjust accordingly. Avoid getting bogged down in non-productive endeavors; stay focused on the productive ones. 

Good luck!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Hi Angel,

I too am not commercial, but I consider myself a serious sideliner. I've been keeping bees for 14 years and would love to do it full-time, but I have a great day job that I simply couldn't replace with beekeeping while keeping other things in my life in balance (11 year old son, etc). Reading the response from enjambres really resonates with me. I feel as though you're placing too much emphasis on emotions with your father and sons, etc. I understand that this is not a purely economic decision for you, but there needs to be balance between emotions and economics. As pointed out by BMAC, perhaps you need to gain more experience before jumping into this endeavor. I suggest that you continue to build your skills as a sideliner for a few years. You've got some good ideas and seem to be very passionate about your plan - just go slow would be my guidance. What would prevent you and your father from working this as a sideline business for a few years?


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

Very good advice from all. I agree with enjambres about tossing that dream down the drain, but need to clarify a little better that when I mean pass down, I mean passing down any inheritance of the business and/or assets. If he wishes to sell or pursue the business is up to him, but at least I can leave him with something that I cherished. Thanks for everyone's responses.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Because beekeeping is location specific I would say to model from the successful
beekeepers in your local area. Any beekeeping group you can join will give you a better
understanding of them. Whatever you do, set up a business plan for it. Buy a few hives to
see if your area can support raising honey bees. The reality is the entire hive will die overwinter
so be ready to accept that as it will hinder your progress. How to keep them alive until the Spring
time is the key to your expansion.
What you can dream you can achieve!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

angel said:


> Ok, ready for the coals.


alright Angel, sounds like you got the equipment , the drive and such. You specify being commercial. My first point of advice would be take your targets off the word commercial. Just, keep bees, and make money off them!! As your operations grows and develops, so will the need to adjust your hive management to better manage your time. In my eye that basically is what commercial beekeeping is. Doing more with less time.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

from my 50 plus yrs of commercial beekeeping I dare say 30% plus of commercial guys will soon be retiring. look for someone sucessful and work for them for 2-5 yrs. maybe you could work a deal with them or by then you will have made many contacts. Its pretty hard to start out in todays conditions. by using someones experence you will save thousands. good luck


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Your "plan", as posted on here, simply involves buying equipment. I know you've got a bigger, and more encompassing business plan. But I guess all we can comment on is your state of mind and the equipment you are trying to buy. Looks like most commented on the state of mind part. I'll give you a stab at equipment.

1. I'd go with deeps, not mediums. If you want to get into nuc production, it's a lot easier to sell a 5 frame deep nuc than it is to sell a 5 frame medium nuc (at least in my experience). If you want to get into pollination, the standard expectation is in numbers of deep frames of brood. Not mediums. Save yourself the headache and go with deeps.

2. You don't have any honey supers on that list. Might want to rethink that. 30 shallow supers won't take you very far if you have 28 hives. Just saying.

3. If you are going to go with mediums, you already have shallow supers. In my experience, having shallows and mediums in the same operation is bad news. The shallows end up in medium boxes (and then you get burr comb), and the mediums end up in shallow boxes (**** . . . where's an empty medium box?).

4. How do you plan on getting the queens for a 400% expansion? Purchase? Where's that expense? Rear yourself? Buying any queen rearing equipment? 

5. What about medications? 

6. Do you have proper vehicle equipment lined up? A truck? How about a trailer (I've found this as a key piece of equipment starting out)?

7. What about paint?

8. What about purchasing bottling equipment? Specifically bottles and labels.

9. If you go with Deeps, I'd plan on having 2 deeps for each hive you want to end with. If mediums, I'd plan on 3 mediums per hive you want to end with. You'll likely have extras, but if you are planning on growing anyway it isn't a problem, just use it next year. But if you come up short, well that's no fun.

Other than that, it looks about right to me. I'd stick with solid bottom and migratory tops. I'd look at building the bottoms and tops if you can. You can build them for $3 each. Saving $8 per top/bottom may not sound like a big deal, but if you plan on increasing to 100 hives, that's $1,600 in savings. I'd say the same thing for boxes, but tops/bottoms are a good way to learn. Once you feel good about those, maybe consider building boxes.


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## cblakely (Sep 6, 2013)

enjambres said:


> I strongly recommend tossing that romantic dream straight into the trash can, at least for now.
> 
> Your son may, or more likely, may not have any interest in being a beekeeper.


I grew up on the family farm in Idaho. My grandfather homesteaded it. 

My father worked long hard hours and never could seem to get ahead. My brothers and I all worked long hard hours. Not long after High School, my father asked if I would like to join him on the farm and become a partner. I didn't even think it over. I said no. Dad sold the farm not long after. It was actually the best thing for him financially as well.

I didn't want that hard life, but there are still times that I regret walking away. The path I took wasn't exactly easy either. I couldn't really leave the whole life, I have always had a little land. Right now it is 2 acres. Got rid of my last horse last year. I have to mow my (bee) pasture now.

Your son may not (probably will not) grow up to be a beekeeper. But you will have that time to share in the apiary, like I had on the farm with my father. You will teach him how to work which will be the most valuable lesson. 

While I did not grow up to be a farmer like my dad, I am still a farmer at heart. I did grow up to be a software developer. I don't regret that move, but I really don't want my kids to follow in my foot steps as far as a career. I want them to make their own path and be the best they can be at what ever they choose.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

Specialkayme said:


> 1. I'd go with deeps, not mediums. If you want to get into nuc production, it's a lot easier to sell a 5 frame deep nuc than it is to sell a 5 frame medium nuc (at least in my experience). If you want to get into pollination, the standard expectation is in numbers of deep frames of brood. Not mediums.
> 
> 2. You don't have any honey supers on that list. Might want to rethink that. 30 shallow supers won't take you very far if you have 28 hives. Just saying.
> 
> ...


1. This put things into a new perspective in regards to nuc production for beekeepers in my area that run mainly deeps. Also didn't know the standard expectations on the numbers of frames/brood for pollination contracts.

2. Supers are being expensed at the beginning of next year (2015) in January with build out for that month. Good catch.

3. Yes, I can see myself putting shallows into mediums. Good point.

4. Learning rearing this year in preparation for next. Purchasing queen rearing equipment this week, but didn't include that since I would consider the other equipment (hives) "standard" over long term and wanted input on exactly what you are pointing out. Thank you!

5. Medications is allotted for aside of the standard equipment.

6. Right now I have 3 4x4 trucks with tow packages, and 3 utility trailers for small scale. I have tons of storage space as well.

7. Paint is already purchased that will cover all the hives mentioned to buy.

8. I have about 1000 "bear" bottles right now ready to go, I'm sure I'll need more and will note this. Going to consider larger containers for the donation to shelters.

9. Very good point on the 3 mediums. I knew this and thank you for the extra eye catch!

Thank you again!


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## dtompsett (Feb 2, 2010)

Without going too deep into this, I've found doubling every year to be easily achieved... and I'm in a colder climate. Plan to start feeding early on, build up big strong hives in 3 deeps that can be split (divided into nuc boxes) leaving the original hive at 1.5 deep (~15 frames + 5 frames of foundation). A few weeks later that original hive will be ready for an excluder and honey super. The other 15 frames are put into nucs... 2-3 frames each plus foundation, introduce a queen cell. Of course this is optimistic assuming you can get that many good frames (a suitable mix of brood and honey/pollen) to make nucs. These nucs will need to be built up for the rest of the season to get through winter. 

The slower alternative is to build up a 3-deep hive, split a single box off, make a good crop off the 2-deep hive, the single box gets a 2nd once it has a laying queen... will be nice and strong by the Fall without too much work. Will be very strong if you have drawn comb. 

The biggest delay in any expansion is the lack of comb. You can have all the queens you want, if there is no space for her to lay your hive is killing time! 

My experience (if my memory is correct)... 
year one - start 2, finish 5
year two - start 5, finish 8
year three - start 7, finish 13
year four - start 12, finish 22 (20 doubles, 2 5+5+5 nucs)
year five - start 20 (18 2-deep, 2 5+5+5 nucs), ... currently 47? (triples 3, doubles 17, single 4, 5 frame nucs 23)

I'm going for a lot more nucs this year... with the goal of selling them. First attempts at proper queen rearing this year, not just walk-away splits or purchasing mated queens. Grafts going well so far. Hives are looking fantastic, and I'm hoping the heavy splitting I did last week will knock down the swarms in July. 

I make no claims of being a commercial beekeeper... I'm investing money in a potential business, which is better than buying a case of beer every week. I do all my work with a station wagon (Outback and Focus) and a trailer. I'm definitely breaking even on my endeavours, which is allowing me to purchase more equipment.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

angel said:


> Long term goals are to migrate from a network engineer to do beekeeping even if its cuts 1/2 or more of my pay. I want this to be my goal because of self love for the profession, environmental concerns, working along side with my father in the business before he passes away, and day to day interaction with corporate bureaucracy, which I know I'll still have to deal with, but on a lesser scale. I will be doing nucs, queens, pollination, training as well as any surplus sales. End goal is to pass this along to my son, thus grandchildren.


You are 42 years old. A little late in life to start into what most Commercial Beekeepers consider Commercial Beekeeping. Not that it can't be done.

As far as building up your numbers it seems as though you have a plan as good as any. Doing it will prove whether it is practical or doable. But it seems as good as any from what I see.

Passing things along to kids and grandkids is laudable, but be prepared for disappointment. Your children are likely to have other interests. My children have had very little interest in working bees w/ me. Only one of my Grandfather's children stayed on the farm. Ya never know.

ps: someone not keeping bees at a level which most commercial beekeepers keep bees, aka their only source of income, is more a source of humor than it is a cause of anger or argument. what's wrong w/ simply saying "I want to run more hives and sell honey." rather than categorizing yourself one way or another? someone who knows how to build and shoot of rockets in their backyard isn't a rocket scientist.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

angel said:


> 4. Learning rearing this year in preparation for next. Purchasing queen rearing equipment this week, but didn't include that since I would consider the other equipment (hives) "standard" over long term and wanted input on exactly what you are pointing out. Thank you!


That's where I'd be careful. Queen rearing isn't hard. Producing 28 queens in a season isn't hard. Learning how to do it (especially on a schedule), while producing them at just the right time in the season, while still doing a 400% increase, that's going to be a little bit challenging. At least in my opinion.

Say you come out of winter with all 7 hives, 15 medium frames of brood each by March 15th. Take all 105 frames of brood (which may be pushing it, but lets just say) and divide them into 3 frame nucs, giving you 35 mating nucs. Add your cells to each of these. Your first year, you'll probably get a 50% take, if you're lucky. So you walk away with 18 queens. Still 10 short. So, you let the 18 that made it start to grow. Keep in mind they are now down to probably 1 or 1.5 frames of brood, as it took the queen 3 weeks to mate and fully start to lay. 1.5 medium frames of brood isn't alot, but they could probably expand to 20 medium frames by the end of the flow. Some won't, but some will. So that leaves you at April 15th with 18 hives. Time to start round 2 of queens (only now you don't have a booming starter/finisher to help you, and your 17 or 18 mating nucs that _didn't_ take are getting weak, and may start showing signs of laying workers). Now you are behind the 8 ball, as it won't be until May 15th, at best, that you can get the other 17 nucs up and running. Assuming all 100% make it. 

Plus, that plan assumes that you can get 35 nucs together _in addition_ to the 28 hives.

Purchasing mated queens will cost you more, but you'll get much better results in the end. Learning queen rearing at your stage is important, as it will pay dividends in years to come. But, it isn't a great plan for growth. You may not care, as the learning may be more important than the growth. But it's a trade off, and something you should keep in mind. Of course, you could do some of each.

Also, in any given season you can either get (1) more bees, or (2) honey. Usually not both. You may end the season with 28 hives, but you'll have very little honey to go around. Might be fine, but something to keep in mind.

In the past 10 years, my hive numbers have fluctuated all over the place. I still wouldn't consider my self "commercial", at best "sideliner", although I don't really know if I'd consider myself that, so maybe take this with a grain of salt. But I've taken 2 hives and brought it to 54, watched them shrink down to 15, expanded them back to 35, watched every one of them die, started over and built up to 31, looking to finish in the mid 40's probably this year. I've learned alot in the process. Largest thing I learned: Don't pin your actions on a number. I don't look at 10 hives and say "by the end of next month, I'll make you into 20." I look at each hive and see where they are at. Some will be ready to split in half on month 1. Some will be ready to split into 3 or 4 on month 2. Some may never really expand like you want, forcing you to requeen and try again. You don't know until you get in there.

If I had to rethink the two reasons why I've lost bees in the past, I'd put it down to: (1) underestimating varroa, and (2) robbing. I've expanded heavily in the past, and at times thought a "break in the brood cycle" was sufficient to keep control of varroa. I was wrong. I was also dumb enough to think treatment free would work for me. I was wrong. I also split so hard that I ended up with weak colonies (tried making a bunch of nucs, feeding through our dearth in the hopes of overwintering the nucs next year). The weak colonies got robbed out and died. Once the robbing frenzy started, it was almost impossible to stop. Once I was able to stop it, I had colonies with no stores in July/August. If I didn't feed, they would abscond. If I did feed, it usually started more robbing issues. So, don't make weak colonies after June 15th (preferably not at all).

For me, I try to finish the year with singles, then have enough equipment to turn each single into a double and have 4 medium supers each. That way I can plan on splitting the double in half, and having 2 medium supers per single. Most years that plans out. Some don't make it at all, some don't grow to the full double, some grow to a triple. Some only need 1 medium, others need 5. But in the end that seems about right for me, and I usually have a few boxes left over, ready to be used next year.

Hope that helps.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> Hope that helps.


Nuggets of gold!!


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## Dunkel (Jun 12, 2009)

Sounds exactly what I would have written. I always love it when someone asks how many hives I have. I have some in every stage, I just say around thirty. 

I have found that around 40 is all I can handle. With 40 I can replace winter dead outs, have enough honey to pay for what I'm out and keep everyone satisfied. I can also generate enough bees to play around with different aspects and try them out to satisfy some unknown need of mine to mess things up Hoping to be a sideliner when I retire in a few years, forty hives and fifty momma cows and 125 students is all I can find time for with a family life.

I have learned quite a few things that work for me in my area, and several things that don't. Takes some time to learn this stuff on your own. I would hate to jump in and try to make a living doing this without learning what works and what doesn't. One thing about it though, you will learn a lot from a bunch of hives than from just a few. The cost of tuition is more though.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

AstroBee said:


> Nuggets of gold!!


Ditto, Specialkayme post gave me goosebumps.


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## prs66 (May 3, 2014)

The bee associations consider 300 hives commercial


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> 1. Take all 105 frames of brood (which may be pushing it, but lets just say) and divide them into 3 frame nucs, giving you 35 mating nucs.
> 
> 2. Your first year, you'll probably get a 50% take, if you're lucky. So you walk away with 18 queens. Still 10 short. So, you let the 18 that made it start to grow.
> 
> ...


I started this spring with 12 production colonies and 10 nucs.

1. I would not put all frames of brood in a mating nuc. I would spread 105 frame of brood out among 105 2 frame compartments. This is pretty close to exactly what I did this past April and May. nearly 300 cells. nearly 40 virgins sold of the remainder that emerged around 96 virgins queens went into mating compartments.

2. Last year my first attempt at queen rearing got exactly 50% mated queens. this spring it was far worse. 100% losses for the first two weeks. so far no one has come up with a definitive answer as to why that happened. we then increased to near 50% but never got quite that good. In all we had around 40 mated queens from it all. Since then we have sold 12 of those along with 5 nucs. and still have 18 nucs in the works. In the past few days we have set up quite a few queenless nucs and given them brood. the result has been the production of an additional 52 queen cells. Most of the original production colonies have been moved to an outyard and are reaching honey production strength.

3. Out of brood as the mated queen begins to lay is pretty much what I want. the bees have emerged giving the compartment the population needed to tend to the new queens brood. empty comb gives her room to lay. To me it is not just about making a box full of bees. but developing a strong queen. Ample room to develop as a layer is something I want to see.

4. Not sure I get your point here. Btu if you intended to make 35 nucs it seems to me you would be prepared with the equipment to do so. I also tend to be running into this myself though. My intent is to end the year with 207 colonies. Doing so requires selling the first of the year nucs. I am also capable of gettign creative on how to come up with the nucs. so far I could manage to make up about 100 of the necessary 150 or so. In short I can make as many as 200 2 frame mating compartments in 10 frame deeps. as those 50% of the queens return mated those same nucs are made into 4 frame nuc compartments. This gives me 100 nucs to keep the mated queens in. We also had 40 nucs made up and ready at the start of the season. Many of those are full now.

5. Have not had the actual results as of yet. My original colonies produced queen cells during the flow. their bees where used to stock mating compartments and they where then moved to an outyard. they have spent the past 3 to 4 weeks building back up for the flow. we are a bit late on the flow by about 2 weeks but they are all now back up to strength. we are also in a drought so that will play a part in just how much honey they make. but they have the population to do so if the nectar is available.

6. In my third year and I have yet to see any drastic fluctuation in colony numbers. this past spring was the only reduction I have seen and it was temporary. As in only a couple of weeks. we went form 23 colonies in January to 20 for a couple of weeks in May. Losses due to Swarming or robbing.

Year 1 from one colony to 4 no losses. Year two from 4 colonies to 23 including all nucs no losses.

Year 3 so far started with 23 and are now at 52 and building. Total number of hives does change day to day due to making new ones and selling some.

Originally my plan was to produce 125 mated queens sell 85 of them as queens and produce and sell 40 nucs. We are no longer anywhere near that plan but still moving forward.

I have to agree with the weak colonies getting robbed comments. We lost 5 nucs to robbing shortly after giving them mated queens. We are working on measures to prevent that. Mainly not keepign strong hives near weak ones for now. Robber screens etc.

I am doing a lot of reading on how to improve out mated queen success and how to get the nucs to build up faster. One result was we sold 12 mated queens and combined those nucs to get them stronger. IT has helped but has been to soon for that brood to emerge yet.

Our final attempt at build up will come from a combination of all nucs we mange to produce now and the production colonies after the flow is over.

In the end one way or the other increase is going to cost us. We will have to feed all of these nucs at the very least. There is also the cost of the equipment. but these costs are far lower than purchasing packages or nucs next spring. Plus we are learning along the way. Buying nucs will never teach us how to rear our own queens and make up our own nucs.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

DanielY- Are you planting cells in your mating nucs, or are you placing virgin queens in there. If you are putting virgins in the nucs, that may be part of your success issue. Most beeks I know prefer cells to virgins.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

We introduced virgins. Same method we used last year and got 50% return rate. After the two week period we started getting that same 50% return rate again. So introducing virgin queens may have something to do with not getting better than a 50% return but I am not so sure it had anything to do with the 100% losses.

It is a long story but once again we have 78 queen cells. This time we are going to introduce them as cells and see if it makes a difference.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I don't understand your business plan. California may be a special case, but here anything up to 400 hives is strictly sideline. I know a lot of folks bootstrapping themselves up, and the almonds do buy nice new trucks ---- but they are working days (equipment operators is favorite occupation) and killing themselves and their marriages working the bees nights and weekends. If you are lucky you might get 24 hours notice before the crop is pesticided.

From your wish list, it sounds like you plan on filling Bear bottles and flogging them retail. Who's minding the store? Retailing honey is a whole other gig. Folks might buy 3 or 5 bottles a year, so you need a big customer list to "farmer market" the syrup and I expect there is someone else locally already in that market. If you value your time at $20/hour swatting flies while waiting for a farmer market customer to decide $20 isn't too much to pay for a jar of syrup, you will be underpaid, since all the other costs represented by the syrup in that jar have to be paid before you net a dime. Every hour you spend at the farmer market is an hour when you cannot work the bees.

Selling the honey direct to "natural foods" market requires a customers sales rep and the delivery eats time and money. Selling it wholesale by the barrel hardly pays the sunk honey house and extraction costs. I know a beek that scored a moderate sized natural foods distribution biz (actually bought the contracts for $$), but didn't have the production, so having to pay for out-of-state trips to locate and buy "organic" honey. The time and capital to do that need to be accounted for, and the mark-up between buying production and wholesaleing it to a tight-fisted grocery is not much. Groceries sell shelf space, and if you have bottles in June, you also need bottles in November when the customers decide to do their Christmas baking.

A very friendly neighboring beek I know, who has purchased a broke-down boom truck and some hives, and is trying to break out of sideline subsidized by his day-job (sewer-line installer) was at a music fest I attended, he spent the weekend flogging little bottles of honey (did it pay the booth rental?), while I enjoyed the performers. Meeting all those customers might be nice if you have the personality for it, but I don't.

Any business plan involving bees has to have a casualty reserve. I know a young beek just about to turn the corner from sideline to full time on the strength of almonds-queen rearing saw half his hives evaporate under the cloud released by a crop duster. I think a business plan (once it has paid the capital loan for all the half-broke down equipment that moves tons of weight) needs a 20% "rainy day" reserve to account for the inevitable casualty losses.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JW,
all good eye opening advice, but, do you really call honey "syrup"? Is that a Morro Bay colloquialism?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you really call honey "syrup"? Is that a Morro Bay colloquialism?


Nope, I wasted my morning trying to correct a "newbee's" collapsing mite-infested 8-frame medium foundation-less hives (I wonder where they got that idea from?). The "all-natural" bee killer insisted on calling her nearly-dead social insects "girls" and in the end refused to take the MAQS that I gifted them. That colloquialism makes my skin crawl, in all its sentimental anthropomorphism. 
My use of "syrup" in this post was an attempt to demystify the production of an evaporated nectar solution by half-domesticated eusocial insects and discharge some of my frustration at the mis-advice rampant on inter-tubes.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I feel for ya brother. Pearls before swine comes to mind.


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## Qvox (May 21, 2015)

A wise man told me once, never tell anyone your goals. 

Nobody is ever really going to constructively support you, and many will just try to shoot you down, or demoralize you. The bottomline is you're the only one that cares about your goals. You are the only one with any vested interest.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Mr Chestnut, You are an insightful man! Trouble is will those who need to listen have ears? Thanks for your words all true.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Some of the thing I when through and things to think about. I am one that has gone through some of your growing pains. I bought out a beekeeper after being in four a few years. So I when from 4/12 hives to 30+ Now 80ish but he had some honey sell accounts. Time has been to short for me to worry about raising queens. I have been blissed or cursed with all three sizes boxes witch a lot of the boxes where junk. Due to age age . The shollows I have started to color code to stop the mix up between med and shollows. When queens are available I try to get local queens and use double nucs boxes. And over winter them. It is Noble of you giving honey away but poor busness. Do I give honey away yes but I do it when it counts with a pay back to me. Do a lot of reading of the commercial beekeeps. You will find the ones that know what they are talking about and the smoke blowers. Good luck. Don't quit your day job.


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

I just can not help myself from entering into this thread.

JW Chesnut gave you a real shot of "wisdom." I have read about some "commercial" beekeepers providing pollination, especially through brokers, and when it was time to get paid the broker is no longer answering the telephone and is nowhere to be found. We all know about problems at the California Portals of entry. If a farmer decided he couldn't pay you at best you are going to have to pay an attorney to get a judgment. That doesn't automatically translate into getting paid. If the trucker has problems, whether the trucker is you or someone else, can you make sure the bees have water or if they have to be unloaded and loaded onto another truck that you have a fork lift along with an operator? Get the picture?

If you are financing your operation is a banker going to be willing to lend you more money if needed? Or, is the banker willing to wait for his money (interest and principle) or is he going to foreclose on your collateral?

Ok, I totally support the notion of "bootstrapping" and providing for a back up system or plan. The Michael Palmer and Michael Bush systems really appeal to me as the best way to not only be sustainable but to back up an expanding bee operation. Unless you are over 95 years old, I would recommend building slowly from your own resources year after year. I have spent about 4 hours every day, 5 days a week during the past two winters putting boxes, bottoms, tops, and frames together. I make a lot of deep 1/2 frames and experimental stuff and I know this kind of activity takes a whole lot of time. At least for me it does. The nice thing is that if all my bees died and all the boxes burned up, I can still sleep at night knowing that there is no negative consequence. 

I think I have said enough for now and I do not want to in any way discourage you, however, I do want to keep you from "kicking any land mines" if I can help it.

I wash you well. LP


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