# Allergy shots



## jeff123fish (Jul 3, 2007)

if i remember correctly they are only protection for up to two stings and every few months you will need to get it re affirmed


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## Fowkes (Jun 19, 2010)

Yes. The monthly maintenance shots are equal to two stings. However, the way the allergist explained it is that if I were to get stung by more than two bees, I wouldn't necissarily have a reaction because the reaction has to do with the dose of venom. If two stings do not induce any form of reaction, then four stings should not be enough to trigger any kind of severe reaction (maybe swelling, etc... but that would be considered normal).


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

I am currently on the monthly maintenance therapy. Am I safe.... Hard to tell. Am I better... Most definitely yes !

My reaction to the therapy shots is nil. However, I have not had a real bee sting in about 2 yrs. I feel comfortable that even with a couple or three stings that I would NOT have an anaphalytic event but might still experience severe swelling. 

Having said all of that. I keep a bottle of liquid benedryl with me while tending bees. I also have a current dated epi-pen. And for severe swelling, I keep an emergency dosage of prednisone around. ( with me the swelling can become critical if ignored and it stays around for 7-10 days. 

In order of priority, the benedryl goes in first, within 2-3 minutes of the sting. If you get it in first, you will probably never need the epi-pen. The prednisone is only taken if the swelling gets really bad after 24hrs. 

Fuzzy


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

Fuzzy, how do you work bees and not get stung for 2 years?
Laurence


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Laurence, "how do you work bees and not get stung for 2 years?"


Carefully..... Seriously, I have an ultrabreeze suit and I religiously fight the urge to lift the lid and peek inside the hive if I don't have it on.
Other than that, I have 5 hives in my back yard and we work the vegetable garden around them without getting stung all year. I also mentor around 5 folks with new hives. During swarm season, I am out fetching them 10-20 times a season. 

So, it must be "karma". -- Fuzzy


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## HiveAtYourHome (Aug 16, 2011)

Of note, your comment of the 5 years to 100% cured needs to be taken with a grain of salt. For some statistical population, say 80% of people (hey 73% of statistics are made-up on the spot,) are "100% cured" during some point within 5 years. Then there are others that will need to continue shot therapy indefinitely. My doctor promised me I'd be 100% cured from my dust mite allergy in 4 years. At year 8 I'm fine as long as I take my shots monthly, so I'm stable and the shots "work". But I'm not cured at all as within a month of missing a shot I'm back to reactions. So immunotherapy "works" and for the majority of people you are "cured" and can stop in a handful of years, but there are no promises. Also for a statistically large amount of people, in 5 years from now they/you might be "cured" without immunotherapy or develop a new allergy. These shots will help you deal for now at least, hopefully you are among the majority that get "cured".


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Fuzzy said:


> I have an ultrabreeze suit


I too have the UB suit and love it. However, this year I had a pretty significant veil failure, which made for an interesting experience in the bee yard! Unknown to me the veil on both sides where the screen attaches to the support ribs detached. So this is just a head's up for those that rely upon their suits for high-level of protection to routinely inspect the veil integrity.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

From a beekeeping friend, who is also an allergist

_Honey bee allergy is not common among non-beekeepers_

That makes on wonder, doesn't it?

He goes on to say

_Immunotherapy protects to a level of 80-90%, meaning there are some who will still react from stings after taking allergy shots. _

To my way of thinking, if you've been diagnosed 'with a life threatening allergy', that even after completing the venom therapy you are still at risk. And a 10-20% chance of a fatal reaction sounds, to me, like playing with fire.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

"To my way of thinking, if you've been diagnosed 'with a life threatening allergy', that even after completing the venom therapy you are still at risk. And a 10-20% chance of a fatal reaction sounds, to me, like playing with fire. "

That is much more polite than the way my allergist yells at me!!

And, while you have a point... When I am tending bees I AM prepared to deal with it. When I am out running errands or strolling through the flower exhibit I am much more vunerable because I don't ever have the benedryl and rarely the epi-pen.

Fuzzy


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Fowkes said:


> Has anyone else gone through with the immunotherapy injections? What sort of results did you see? Are you truly “bee safe”?


Yes- although I only had large local reaction, after 2 years of shots, a big big improvement in reactions to stings.
Have heard of other folks who had anaphaxtic allergy and now after the immunotherapy have had great success and work now without gloves. 
See Dr. Buddy Materre's articles from ABJ on the subject. Can't find the internet link right now, but if you send me a pm, I can email them to you (large file size)


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

beemandan said:


> _Honey bee allergy is not common among non-beekeepers_


That is not true for all, it depends in part on your level of allergies in general. There has been much or at least some research on the subject. Dr. Buddy Mattere has done some nice synthesis of this research which he presented at EAS this past summer. If you are prone to allergies in general, you are more likely to have an allergy or at least a large local reaction to honeybees if you are a beekeeper. YOu can also develop an allergy over time depending on many factors, including medication, changes in body chemistry, etc. There is evidence about non beekeepers (assuming they are not getting stung on a regular basis) being around venom dust on beekeeper clothing, etc. that can increase their chance of allergic reaction. MPalmer wrote about this somewhere on beesource as his own daughter developed one and was treated with the immunotherapy/allergy shots.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

2 of my ex-husbands are severely allergic to bees. Neither has ever kept bees. However when I have bees, I have the best ex-deterrent therapy in the state! I've got to get more bees when spring comes. :lookout:


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Fuzzy said:


> Having said all of that. I keep a bottle of liquid benedryl with me while tending bees.
> Fuzzy


Fuzzy,

Where do you get the liquid benedryl?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

winevines said:


> That is not true for all


Came right from the handout supplied to me by an actively practicing, board certified allergist. I'll tell him you said it ain't so........


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Charlie_B,

It is officially "childrens liquid benedryl". It is available at ANY pharmacy in the antihistimine section for $6-$8 a bottle. CHEAP insurance !!!
I won't mentor anyone who is unwilling to keep a bottle around. 

The advantage to the liquid is that it gets into your system in just a few minutes. You might want to review the label, some brands are sweetened with corn sugar and others use saccharine. Personally I hate the artificial sweetner unless I have just been stung and then I don't really care. 

The disadvantage is that a lot of people get really sleepy after taking benedryl. So, it may be unsafe to drive for several hours. 

Regards -- Fuzzy


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

I posted this a while back on a dying thread, so I'll re-post it here. As a scientist-in-training by trade, I did some research after having a systemic (but not particularly severe) sting reaction and being diagnosed with a bee allergy. I'm currently in the third week of shots, having increased from 1/25000 to 1/200 of a sting in that time with no adverse effects. Given the non-severity of my reaction they probably could have started me at a higher dose but they are following the standard protocol. The amount will quadruple each week in the next two weeks and double each week thereafter so that in about six more weeks I will be at the full two-sting dose.



> Immunotherapy protects to a level of 80-90%, meaning there are some who will still react from stings after taking allergy shots.
> 
> To my way of thinking, if you've been diagnosed 'with a life threatening allergy', that even after completing the venom therapy you are still at risk. And a 10-20% chance of a fatal reaction sounds, to me, like playing with fire.


A 10-20% chance of reaction does not mean a 10-20% chance of a _life threatening_ reaction. A study of allergic beekeepers (http://www.jiaci.org/issues/vol20issue1/8.pdf) undergoing venom immunotherapy yielded the following results:










The "grades" are defined in this paper: http://www.jiaci.org/issues/vol18issue1/9.pdf
and translate roughly as
Grade 1: skin reaction only
Grade 2: skin reaction plus respiratory effects, nausea, and/or change in heart rate; non-life-threatening
Grade 3: vomiting, bronchial spasms, and/or shock; life threatening if untreated
Grade 4: respiratory/cardiac arrest; fatal if untreated

Note that after venom immunotherapy, 80% of beekeepers had no reaction, 15% had a Grade 1 reaction, and 5% had a Grade 2 reaction. No life-threatening Grade 3/4 reactions were reported after treatment; thus I don't agree that keeping bees after undergoing venom immunotherapy is equivalent to "playing with fire." Granted, this was a fairly small study, so I would not rule out the possibility of occasional severe post-desensitization reactions.





Original message below.


I'm a first-year beekeeper who has gone from unaffected to large local reaction (arm swelled up) to moderately allergic (hives and fast heartbeat but no respiratory symptoms) in three stings. I have an appointment with an allergist later this month, but in the mean time I am continuing to keep my bees albeit with an epi-pen on hand and my partner helping out. I've been reading a lot of the scientific literature about bee sting allergies (I have access to scientific journals through my university), and here is what I know so far.

1. Nearly 50% of fatal allergic reactions occur in people with no history of allergy to stings (although only a small proportion of these are beekeepers). So yes it is possible to go from 0 to 100.

2. Roughly half of allergic reactions in beekeepers happen during the first two years of beekeeping or the first fifty stings.

3. Occasional stings, along with frequent exposure to bees, tend to foster allergic reactions while frequent stings tend to foster immunity. Here's a quote from 
C. Eich-Wanger and U. R. Muller. Bee sting allergy in beekeepers. Clinical and Experimental Allergy 1998 (28): 1292-1298.



> The risk of bee sting allergy increases with the degree of exposure [1]. Therefore, beekeepers are at high risk for bee sting allergy. In a number of studies it was shown [2–7], that between 14 and 35% of beekeepers give a history of at least one episode of systemic allergic reaction after bee stings. According to Bousquet [8], however, those who are least frequently stung within a population of beekeepers, most often develop an allergic reaction: none of those beekeepers receiving more than 200 stings each year reported a systemic reaction, whereas 45% of those receiving only up to 25 stings did.


Here is an abstract for the article (Bousquet) cited in the quote: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0091674984904056
There is a pretty dramatic correlation between the number of stings per year and the likelihood of allergic reaction, at least in this survey.

4. Although doctors seem to find it strange that allergic people continue to keep bees, beekeepers generally respond very well to venom immunotherapy injections. Here is a recent article from Germany, freely available:
http://www.jiaci.org/issues/vol20issue1/8.pdf

Doctors insist that venom immunotherapy should be continued for at least five years and possibly for life given that there is a low (10-20%) probably of recurrence of systemic reactions after injections are stopped. I did find one source (the same paper as quoted above) in which allergists allowed beekeepers to substitute actual stings for injections. Success was good, although the sample size is pretty pathetic (7 beekeepers for three years).



> In seven aBK (allergic beekeepers), after successfull VIT (venom immunotherapy) of at least 3 years duration, we agreed to a special protocol to maintain tolerance by self-application of bee stings. These patients, in addition to the recommendations given above, were instructed to avoid more than two stings at the time by strictly wearing protective clothing, to apply one or two weekly stings during the warm season and during winter to apply at least one sting per month or to restart monthly maintenance injections with 200 mcg of BV (bee venom) at the family doctor. Table 4 shows data on these seven patients: only one developed a mild systemic allergic reaction (grade I) each spring, when restarting the work with bees, during the ﬁrst 3 years after stopping VIT.



Mark


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Luterra said:


> A 10-20% chance of reaction does not mean a 10-20% chance of a _life threatening_ reaction.


Maybe not, but the original poster said that he/she _was officially diagnosed with a life threatening allergy_...and from this I suggest that his/her risk is higher for a fatal reaction after immunotherapy than yours would be.
I would recommend extra caution in his/her case. You don't agree?


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

I would agree, and I suspect that someone who has had a life-threatening reaction probably doesn't need to be reminded. 

We need more data like the study I cited/linked in my previous post, but based on the available data it would appear that the risk of a severe reaction in someone who has been desensitized is only slightly higher than the risk for a new beekeeper with no prior history of allergic response.

Based on my research I have concluded that:
1. New beekeepers should carry benadryl and maybe even an epi-pen for their first few years, as there is a significant (1-10%) chance that an allergy will develop during that time.
2. Allergy shots are sufficiently effective that desensitized individuals need not give up beekeeping, although it is still prudent to keep an epi-pen and/or benadryl on hand.
3. Frequent stings are perhaps the best defense against developing or re-developing an allergic response (following the same principle as the regular "maintenance dose" allergy injections).

It's all about the antibodies. IgG (good) antibodies build up in an exposure-dependent manner, such that people who are stung more often have more of them. IgE (allergy-causing) antibodies build up unpredictably and can reach high levels after a single sting. Allergy shots work by building up IgG levels to balance out high IgE levels.

Mark


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Luterra,

That is all very interesting. Do you have any information with regards to people that have had Bee Venom Therapy? As you may know, they build up to quite a few stings in total during a few months to a year or more in time. Would be nice to have lifetime immunity! Is that possible?


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

"New beekeepers should carry benadryl and maybe even an epi-pen for their first two years, as there is a significant (1-10%) chance that an allergy will develop during that time."

For the record, I was into it about 6yrs before I had a full blown allergic reaction. I will repeat.... Benedryl is CHEAP insurance... keep it handy


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Fuzzy said:


> I had a full blown allergic reaction. I will repeat.... Benedryl is CHEAP insurance... keep it handy


I don't believe that benedryl will halt a full blown anaphylactic reaction.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Benedryl is meant to be a temporary fix. sort of like a bandage on a cut that will eventually have to be stitched. Hopefully it will buy you enough time and reduce the symptoms of the reaction enough for you to get to better help. the epi pen does the same but is a lot more powerful in reducing symptoms.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Since this is so important a topic, it bears repeating. Anyone that is taking a beta blocker medication should know that the effectiveness of an epi pen is greatly reduced.....perhaps as much as by 80% or more. It can, however, still be used as it is better than nothing. Get to the ER. Check with your doctor with your concerns.

If I am not mistaken, an epi pen works by increasing the heart rate as the person that is going into shock is having the opposite thing going on. 

If someone with that allergy gets stung, they should take liquid Benedryll immediately. The epi pen should be used as per instructions from the doctor. Talk to your doctor about that and plan ahead. Anytime an epi pen is used that person should get to the ER pronto.

That being said, many people don't know the difference between a local reaction and anaphylactic shock. It would be important to know the difference. Some people think that severe local swelling is an allergy to honey bee venom. It is not.

Caution should be used regarding epi pens as they can cause problems when used on someone that is not having an allergic reaction.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Bee Bliss said:


> Luterra,
> 
> That is all very interesting. Do you have any information with regards to people that have had Bee Venom Therapy? As you may know, they build up to quite a few stings in total during a few months to a year or more in time. Would be nice to have lifetime immunity! Is that possible?


It should theoretically be possible to develop immunity prophylactically through a series of shots or the more natural Bee Venom Therapy, thus greatly reducing the chance of a subsequent allergic reaction. 

Here is a study that would be useful: Find 200 new beekeepers with minimal history of stings and no present allergy. Require half of them to self-administer one sting a week during the active season and one a month during the winter, while the other half are allowed to minimize stings. Monitor these beekeepers for five years, and record the frequency of severe local response and allergy development between the groups. I suspect that the group with frequent stings would have no allergy development while the control group would see 1-10% of people develop an allergy as well as experience a stronger sting response.



Most non-beekeepers who undergo venom immunotherapy are not stung enough post-treatment to really assess the effectiveness. I have only found one study specifically addressing effectiveness in beekeepers, and although the sample size is small the results are encouraging.



> Forty-three beekeepers were evaluated to determine the effectiveness of desensitization. The average number of bee stings after desensitization was 107 (median 18).
> All but one reported no longer having allergic responses; however, in the case of those that did, the severity of the allergic symptoms improved significantly.


Thus of 43 previously-allergic beekeepers who were stung an average of 107 times after desensitization, only one experienced a relatively mild allergic response.

From http://www.jiaci.org/issues/vol20issue1/8.pdf


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Thus of 43 previously-allergic beekeepers who were stung an average of 107 times after desensitization, only one experienced a relatively mild allergic response.
That would be me. If you are interested , search posts. I, as well as others, have born their soul on this subject. 
My message is this, with no disrespect in tended to anyone. There is good info here. BUT, YOUR allergy solutions are not on this forum. 
Concerns here are not for those that are posting, but those who are reading. Maybe I'm being naive. This stuff scares/concerns me.
Over the counter meds will not/and can not save you when you have been warned by your body that you have an allergic reaction waiting in the background. Think of it as an earthquake. You will be shook to your core.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Bee Bliss, Very good point. I did suffer a true anaphylactic shock. and for the benefit of those reading I will offer this description. First I will say the various symptoms set in in a completely random fashion. Each person or each episode is very likely to be different. I di have swelling in the area of the sting, a rash pain and itching. None of these are considered symptoms of shock. the following are.
at the moment I got stung it of course hurt. I was stung on the upper lip and doctors believe the venom reached my sinuses. basically I snorted venom and it was able to pass to my entire system in seconds triggering the shock reaction. In those first few seconds I felt as if my since of balance was not right. I was working just three block from my parents house and immediately decided to go there for help. I walk pretty fast so the trip took maybe 3 to 4 minutes at the very most. in that time I lost anything that resembles normal in the way of feeling. at times I could not really tell if my feet where touching the ground. my skin was either numb or tingly at best. My heart raced, My body lost the ability to cool itself and I became instantly over heated and started sweating. I started loosing my vision. basically everything started to turn white I had tunnel vision at best. Worst of all I became disoriented. Even though my parents house was straight up the street and then turn left. I had lost track of how many blocks I had walked, began to realize I was not sure I could make out landmarks that where familiar to me. was not sure I would be able to recognize my parents street or their house even if I did reach it. At times it seemed my entire brain wanted to shut down. I was aware that I was not completely capable of even thinking at times.
I did manage to find my parents house. No one was home. I made it inside and found the phone. THe shcok in my case seemed to come and go so what I could do one second I may not have been able to do the next then the ability would return. thinking for example. It required three or four attempts to dial 911. once I did get through I found out I could not speak. It was just about that time my family walked in. IT was still pretty hard to let them know what was wrong but they did manage to get me to the E.R. By then I was feeling much better and I thought the worst was past. The Doctor was filling my veins up with 24 different shots. Some where meant to keep my body functions going. others where meant to stop the venom. I told the doctor I felt better and I would be okay. He looked at me and told me he had sen people doing better than I was die.

To this day I think about the range of effects the shock had on me. the sort of things it would shut down even for a few moments. It could very well have been my heart or other vital body function. maybe the part of my brain that keeps other critical to life thing happening. In my case I believe the overheating alone would have been fatal had it not passed soon enough.

All I can really ay is that you simply have no idea how you will be effected. DO not count on being able to do anything. you may not be able to remember your own name or a phone number. you may not be able to speak even if you can call someone. Have anything you can to help your body resist the symptoms and preferably have someone with you. Truth is bad things happen. My wife was terrified but I never skipped a beat int eh activities that lead to my sting. I was back to work at the same job that got me stung the next day. I managed to go two years without a sting but eventually I did get hit. No reaction. It appears my reaction was due to the location of the sting. Thank goodness but I will tell you this. I will never ever doubt another person when they say they are allergic. I think it is simply way to dangerous of a mistake to make. If you want to cause swelling form a sting an allergy. I will be the one to drive you to the E.R. I am not going to tell you it is or isn't there simply is not time.
Play as safely as you can. That is the best you can do. If you know you are allergic and still mess with the bees. well I guess I sort of did also. I was not keeping bees at that time. But my work did result in me getting stung on a regular basis. I did go back to it. In my case I am just fine. You might have to make a different choice.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Thank you Daniel. This is important stuff to know.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Daniel Y,
Thank you for sharing. It is scary stuff.
I think it is human nature to not want to acknowledge something like this. Especially since it could put one in a position of making a decision to give up something they love, and rewards them so. It may even be viewed as a "weakness" or "abnormal". For me, it was another thing to deal with by getting the right professional help.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

I started allergy shots in October last year after a skin-only systemic reaction and reached the maintenance dose (100 micrograms, about two stings) two weeks ago. Last week I figured I would test the efficacy, so I grabbed a bee out of the winter cluster, inspired it to sting my thumb, and left the stinger in for a good minute. Hurt like heck of course and swelled a bit for a couple of days, but no allergic response. Interestingly, when I got my "two-sting" shot this week it barely hurt at all, so I have to conclude that a real sting is stronger than what they are giving me. 

Others may disagree with me on this, but I have come to the conclusion that the best way to keep bees and not get allergic responses is to be stung regularly. There is certainly a documented trend that allergic responses are most frequent among beekeepers stung infrequently (up to 25 times per year) and almost nonexistent among beekeepers stung over 200 times per year. There is also evidence to suggest that the interval between stings is more important than the number (i.e. one sting per week is better than 10 stings at a time five times a year, not to mention more pleasant). My plan this year is to give myself one weekly sting in addition to the monthly injections, in the hope of further enhancing my immunity and decreasing my local reactions. I of course still have an epi-pen ready in case anything goes amiss.

Also, I recently discovered a two-part article series that provides a good summary of the current research into bee sting reactions, allergy, and treatment, and (in part 2) lays out advice for allergic beekeepers who want to keep their hobby. I would even recommend adding these links to the "Resources" section of BeeSource.
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/Marterre.2006a%20copy.pdf
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/Marterre.2006b%20copy.pdf

One good reason to always wear a veil (from the second link above):


> OCULAR (or eyeball) STINGS are fortunately quite rare (because of the extremely fast human blink response), but when they do occur they frequently lead to blindness. Immediate attention by an ophthalmologist is warranted. Specific ocular sting injuries include corneal edema, hyphema (blood in the anterior chamber of the eye), lens dislocation, cataract, and optic neuritis (inflammation of the optic nerve). Prevention is clearly the key to these injuries.


Mark


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Dang, this is scary stuff. For sure, I am too much of a sissy to allow a bee to sting me on a regular basis. However, I get stung by paper wasps and scorpions every year.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Lazy Shooter, 
It's not so bad if you ice the area first! Seriously!


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Bee Bliss said:


> Lazy Shooter,
> It's not so bad if you ice the area first! Seriously!


I hadn't thought of that. I think I will try that when I have more time. Wasp stings don't hurt me much, and I have almost no swelling from stings. My son, an entomologist tells me many people let bees sting them for an arthritis treatment. He's not sure it works, but many people report relief from bee stings.

Thanks for the tip,

Lazy


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Luterra said:


> I have come to the conclusion that the best way to keep bees and not get allergic responses is to be stung regularly. There is also evidence to suggest that the interval between stings is more important than the number (i.e. one sting per week is better than 10 stings at a time five times a year, not to mention more pleasant).


Thanks for this post. I absolutely agree- coming from someone who has also been through the desensitization shots. It is the regularity of the sting, which is why backyard beekeepers have a harder time getting the desensitizing reaction naturally unless stung at a regular interval throughout the entire season.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Though it may not help with a severe anaphylactic reaction it is, nevertheless, important to note that the very first thing you should do is SCRAPE out the stinger immediately with somethingsharp enough to get under the venom sac and lift. A fingernail will usually suffice. All stings are not created equal and you can make a sting much worse by smashing the venom sac while it is still embedded.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Though it may not help with a severe anaphylactic reaction it is, nevertheless, important to note that the very first thing you should do is SCRAPE out the stinger immediately with somethingsharp enough to get under the venom sac and lift. A fingernail will usually suffice. All stings are not created equal and you can make a sting much worse by smashing the venom sac while it is still embedded.


Jim, I believe this is one of those myths that keeps getting propogated. There is no study that indicates that HOW you take a bee stinger out matters. In fact, there are many studies that state that it just doesn't matter how you get it out, it's the time that matters. You are much better getting it out fast. How you get it out (scraping, pulling, . . . , etc.) just doesn't matter.

As one study concluded, ""You don't drive venom past the pump by pinching it."


See http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/arizonaliving/articles/0606bottomline0606.html?&wired

See http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n7_v150/ai_18621173/


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

c1: while I would agree that it should be taken out as quickly as possible I will have to respectfully disagree with assertion that it matters not how it is removed. If timeliness of removal is your only criteria then that indicates that there is still venom left to be discharged and since you concede that there is a pumping mechanism then why would there be no difference in how much pressure you put on the backside of said pump? Scrape it and scrape it quickly, how can that be wrong?


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

In addition to benadryl pepcid can also help reduce reactions. It is best to consult with your doctor prior to being stung to get their advice on how to treat and what to look out for.

Tom


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