# Youngster trying to make a go



## babybee

My advice is always the same. Work for a large beekeeper, and keep a daily journal. Ask questions of not just what we are doing today but why. Even better than that would be to work for two or three beekeepers over 2 or 3 years because every guy does things different. Oh and only work for the finest most successful beekeepers. Also, as a beekeeper you will also have to deal with people. Not just the land owners but the neighbors often times.


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## Beekkirk

Thanks for the advise, I have heard that from many and read it a million times. Unfortunately im not in a position to quit my day job so im probably going to have to learn things the hard way. I've been trying to learn as much as possible from others through beesource and meetings but as you state nothing will beat the hands on experience.


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## Andrey Limonchenko

For commercial operations $5.65+sugar sounds expensive. Look into Mike Palmer's feeding style.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-your-favorite-way-to-feed-your-bees-amp-why


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## jcolon

Check Mother Lode feeders. I thin you can get them at a better price than Mann's. 



Andrey Limonchenko said:


> For commercial operations $5.65+sugar sounds expensive. Look into Mike Palmer's feeding style.
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...s-your-favorite-way-to-feed-your-bees-amp-why


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## HarryVanderpool

Beekkirk said:


> Ill try to keep it simple
> -Im trying to get away from small business, sick of the people and nitty gritty management
> -


Commercial Beekeeping is "small business".
"Nitty Gritty" management is one of the most important skills in beekeeping.
You can be the greatest beekeeper on the West Coast. But if you cannot effectively manage a small business in every detail you will not do well.
_Boxes _do not equate to a successful beekeeping operation.
Best of luck to you.


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## grozzie2

What Harry said.


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## JRG13

Hmmm, is that a bulk discount price, I swear the 1 gallon feeders are like $7.50 here at the store in Woodland. Those prices seem fairly good on the boxes and stuff for the quantity. My advice, make your own tops as well. The best thing to do is plan ahead and network with some commercial guys, you can learn a lot of the business and hive management side of things that way.


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## gmcharlie

Stick with the Mann lake feeder, for the price and quality its the best option, the mother load feeders are not the quality.
Get the cap and ladder system SHB larve pretty well get trapped in the feeder, and bees don't


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## pleasantvalley

I don't think I've ever heard of a commercial beekeeper not wanting to hire anyone eager to learn the trade or business, especially some of the older ones looking to sell their operation in the not so distant future. Cash flow is critical in farming and no offense, but banks aren't going to be in a hurry to lend to someone who is both young and has no business plan or significant experience. It's not just about equipment, you need to buy queens, fuel, insurance and plenty of other overhead throughout the year. Sit down and make that plan, even if you have your regular day job to pay yourself and make no income from beekeeping for the first year(s). Prove to yourself and your potential pollination customers that you can successfully overwinter your hives and deliver hives that make grade.


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## jcolon

Good to hear. I was wondering myself if there was any difference. 



lazybhoney said:


> Stick with the Mann lake feeder, for the price and quality its the best option, the mother load feeders are not the quality.
> Get the cap and ladder system SHB larve pretty well get trapped in the feeder, and bees don't


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## gmcharlie

5 years I have been useing them, still have every one and not a problem. Some times I will pop a rubber band with the hive tool, but super happy with that product. I have about 400 of them. I have quite literally given away all my other feeders to people buying bees. I use the 2.5 in a 10 frame box. it never comes out. I have some of the 2 also, there fine also. just a little more space.


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## jcolon

The Mother Lode feeders or the Mann Lake?


lazybhoney said:


> 5 years I have been useing them, still have every one and not a problem. Some times I will pop a rubber band with the hive tool, but super happy with that product. I have about 400 of them. I have quite literally given away all my other feeders to people buying bees. I use the 2.5 in a 10 frame box. it never comes out. I have some of the 2 also, there fine also. just a little more space.


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## gmcharlie

the mann Lake. The 3/4 wood top is the quailty piece. the Mother lode top does not fit and seal well, and when the side bow from filling you get big gaps. the "ladder top" also tends to warp and distort a bit. 
Its not awful, just not as sweet as the Mann lake..... but back to topic!


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## jean-marc

Andrey L If you cannot afford $5.65 plus sugar for your bees, then best not keep bees.

Jean-Marc


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## Beekkirk

Thanks for all the feedback. I will add that the nitty gritty management i was referring to is working for 100+ house wives in a town that the average household income is $150,000+. You wouldn't believe the craziness that goes on here. Im hoping this may lead to the possibility of moving out of here and having a life of meaning rather then slaving away for people who could care less about you.


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## JRG13

As far as growth goes, I came out of winter with about 20 colonies this year, a lot were nucs. I was able to split up to about 70 when all was said and done, I do buy some queens, some were walk aways, some were supercedures that got split, some where VSH daughter queens off II breeders that were grafted and mated for me by Honey-4-All (big kudos out to Phil). Some of the later splits were lost as the new outyard was devoid of any forage in late summer and fall but overall, I did a fairly easy 3X increase without feeding or anything. If you split as early as you can, with mated queens and put some feed on them, I don't see why you couldn't hit 100 colonies next year with some luck and catching swarms or ordering some packages.


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## marshmasterpat

Beekkirk said:


> Thanks for all the feedback. I will add that the nitty gritty management i was referring to is working for 100+ house wives in a town that the average household income is $150,000+. You wouldn't believe the craziness that goes on here. Im hoping this may lead to the possibility of moving out of here and having a life of meaning rather then slaving away for people who could care less about you.


I was wondering if you were talking about the nitty gritty management of dealing with folks about their lawns and shrubs and hedges. Know people that makes decent money doing that locally. They offer reduces rates for retirees (area income is lower than yours considerably). The stories I hear about the complaints from people getting reduced rates for lawn care are crazy. They are never happy.

Make good plans, get experience from commercial keepers and keep at it. There are some people making fairly decent salaries with bees.


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## The Honey Householder

My kids say all the same about having to run this dang bee business too. They just wish they had a easy grass cutting job like they're friends do. THE GRASS IS ALWAY GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE. Grass cutting is not having to be done all night like moving bees. You will work harder for your $$$ in beekeeping then you will cutting grass.


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## Roland

Pleasantvalley wrote:

I don't think I've ever heard of a commercial beekeeper not wanting to hire anyone eager to learn the trade or business, especially some of the older ones looking to sell their operation in the not so distant future.

Why should I hire some one that will slow me down explaining what and why we are doing things? And then have them leave in a few years? They would have to pay me.

Crazy Roland


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## Mosherd1

JRG13 said:


> As far as growth goes, I came out of winter with about 20 colonies this year, a lot were nucs. I was able to split up to about 70 when all was said and done, I do buy some queens, some were walk aways, some were supercedures that got split, some where VSH daughter queens off II breeders that were grafted and mated for me by Honey-4-All (big kudos out to Phil). Some of the later splits were lost as the new outyard was devoid of any forage in late summer and fall but overall, I did a fairly easy 3X increase without feeding or anything. If you split as early as you can, with mated queens and put some feed on them, I don't see why you couldn't hit 100 colonies next year with some luck and catching swarms or ordering some packages.


When you increased from 20-70, are you overwintering the 70 as nucs or as single or double deeps? My concern about making that much of a jump is the time and expense for the equipment purchase and assembly. I use all wooden equipment and wax foundation so I may spend more time than others assembling equipment. Also, is your goal nuc sales, honey, or pollination? Thanks or the insight into your operation.
-Dave


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## JRG13

I use all wood and wax as well, even started wiring and embedding frames this year. I got most of the new splits in singles or 5x5 or bigger. If I had fed them, they all could've been in doubles I bet but I didn't have time to build all the 10 frame equipment I needed, easier to move half into singles and take the empty 5 frame box, add new frames to it and stick it on top of the other half of the splits. I don't split them all down into nucs, just new queens or splits are 5 framers, the overwintered hives build up into doubles or larger. Next year will try to hit 200, but the cost may be a deal breaker, earlier in the year I wouldn't have worried about it, but the wife had other plans....


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## The Honey Householder

Sounds like your just making bees and equipment. I call that an out of control hobby. Might try and make some $$ at it and keep the wife happy too.:thumbsup:


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## JSL

Getting experience from successful commercial beekeepers is the best investment/education you can hope for. The more the better! If your current work is somewhat seasonal, even a week or two in a commercial operation will provide an educational experience. The old cliche "knowledge is power" is so true. It will help you make good management decisions down the road. Some beekeepers will be receptive to you, some will not, but if this is what you want, I am sure you will find a way.


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## pleasantvalley

Roland said:


> Pleasantvalley wrote:
> 
> I don't think I've ever heard of a commercial beekeeper not wanting to hire anyone eager to learn the trade or business, especially some of the older ones looking to sell their operation in the not so distant future.
> 
> Why should I hire some one that will slow me down explaining what and why we are doing things? And then have them leave in a few years? They would have to pay me.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Okay. I guess now I've heard of one. You can't walk and talk at the same time?  

I keep bees in an area where bad help is hard to find, nevermind good help. Sure you might lose someone you've trained, but you get good labor in trade and maybe a long term employee. How do I know this? I learned the business from the largest beekeeper in Canada who gave me my start managing a satellite operation at age 23 that I'm now purchasing. He now owns 4 honey farms and 3 of them are not run by his children. Visitors to our Alberta AGMs are always commenting on how many young people are in the room, so there are plenty of people getting their start in beekeeping by apprenticing. Is your business worth more when you want to retire by selling it as a going operation or just disperse it at auction?


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## babybee

Plus beekeepers have big egos. We all want to say we helped start "this guy" or "that guy". I think anyways.


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## JRG13

The Honey Householder said:


> Sounds like your just making bees and equipment. I call that an out of control hobby. Might try and make some $$ at it and keep the wife happy too.:thumbsup:


It is out of control, the $$ is more complicated here, we don't have huge flows at any given time, so you can't always bank on a honey crop unless you're chasing blooms. I could sell bees, but it's counter productive in a growth phase and funds were banked and plentiful until the wife decided she wanted to move in March... so I had to make her happy and donate my personal slush fund, but that's another story... LOL


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## Roland

Pleasantvalley - I must apologize for my attitude. My father "gave away the farm" in knowledge to anyone that came along. Take for example the bee blower. I have developed a much different attitude. Why should I give away the knowledge I have worked so hard to gain? I do share limited amounts with limited people, mostly to those that have given me some valuable knowledge.

That being said, let the OP be aware that not all parties will tell all. As some one on here once posted..... "I taught him everything he knows, but not everything I know".

Crazy Roland


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## Markt

Don't know about everyone else but I use the 1 gallon Mann lake frame feeders and I don't think I'd want anything bigger in my hives, especially when it comes to singles. The cap and ladders are definitely worth the investment, with them hives can be fed immediately before shipping and you don't have to worry about losing much as the ladders stop the sloshing of syrup. 

If I were in your shoes I definitely wouldn't be buying any more hives, split what you have up to 70 or so good doubles by the end of the year and feed the heck out of them all the way through. There's no reason 90%+ shouldn't survive if they're not getting shipped around and mite levels are under control. I assume at this stage of the game you have more time than money and it's as different running 100 hives vs 20-25 as running 1000 is to running 100 and there are a lot of things you'll figure out running those 70 to 100 that you might cost you tens or hundreds of thousands if you go nuts with a big line of credit with more bees. Waste can be from both killing large numbers of bees and coming up with some new way of doing something and buying one for every hive. God knows you can find more than one skid of some now obsolete piece of equipment around my yard. Just a thought.


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## Keith Jarrett

babybee said:


> Plus beekeepers have big egos.


What.... Where did you hear that from??? lol


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## Barry

Link description: "Barry picking on Keith" :
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?233955-Beekeeping-as-a-living&p=463572#post463572


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## Ian

Roland said:


> "I taught him everything he knows, but not everything I know".
> 
> Crazy Roland



thate true for all of us Roland, the school of hard has had many students


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## jcolon

I lost it here. Have no idea what this means. 



Beekkirk said:


> Thanks for all the feedback. I will add that the nitty gritty management i was referring to is working for 100+ house wives in a town that the average household income is $150,000+. You wouldn't believe the craziness that goes on here. Im hoping this may lead to the possibility of moving out of here and having a life of meaning rather then slaving away for people who could care less about you.


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## Keith Jarrett

LOL.... Ole Barry to the rescue. lol


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## Barry

Let us never forget the good quotes on Beesource!


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## johnbeejohn

do not think you should buy packages you should be able to build up plenty with your hives out of winter 

have you considered bucket feeders i have 2 gallon buckets i got htem used for 1$ a pop very easy to make as well 

john


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## Keith Jarrett

Barry said:


> Let us never forget the good quotes on Beesource!


My goodness, it took Barry less than 5 minutes to find and answer. We need him to be a MOD on the next Debate.  lol CNBC has nothing on Barry.


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## sqkcrk

Keith Jarrett said:


> What.... Where did you hear that from??? lol


Some things can be seen. They don't have to be heard.


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## Keith Jarrett

You know Mark I Defriended myself over on that FB site, they have no sense of humor, but I feel right at home here on beesource under the bus.


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## sqkcrk

Your absence has been conspicuous. Wendy has been taking up your slack though.


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## Keith Jarrett

sqkcrk said:


> Your absence has ben conspiquous. Wendy has been taking up your slack though.


Mark, were gone from that whining site, really clanny over there, I still hit the like button but that is it.


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## Barry

Keith Jarrett said:


> but I feel right at home here on beesource under the bus.



And you've been under there at least since 2007!



> I use to be able to crawl out from under the bus alot faster in my younger days, but I'm getting alot of practice here.


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## Keith Jarrett

HA. WHAT CAN A PERSON SAY, nothing better than the source on a Friday night.


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## Specialkayme

I've found # of outyards is more important than # of hives.

I've fluctuated between 1 and 70 hives over the past decade or so. When I got above 20 hives, I found an outyard. Only about 5 min away. Simple enough, not too time consuming. When I got above 40 hives, I realized I was starting to diminish returns on honey and population increases when I got above 8 hives per yard. So I found 4 more outyards about this time last year. Kept 10 hives at home, 10 in the "old" outyard, spread the rest among the 4 new outyards (with some losses ended up being 2 per new outyard). Each outyard ended up being about 15 min away from the next one. This past year the time commitment was significantly higher, even though the hive numbers weren't. I used to spend an afternoon about every other week working the bees. This past year it was about 6 hours a week, every week. But, I could easily increase to 60 hives without increasing the work. I just don't think I'd be able to sell all that honey right now. Better off increasing in future years and selling splits these years.

If you haven't managed multiple outyards, I'd suggest giving it a try BEFORE you expand too quickly.


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## jcolon

Specialkayme said:


> I've found # of outyards is more important than # of hives.
> 
> I've fluctuated between 1 and 70 hives over the past decade or so. When I got above 20 hives, I found an outyard. Only about 5 min away. Simple enough, not too time consuming. When I got above 40 hives, I realized I was starting to diminish returns on honey and population increases when I got above 8 hives per yard. So I found 4 more outyards about this time last year. Kept 10 hives at home, 10 in the "old" outyard, spread the rest among the 4 new outyards (with some losses ended up being 2 per new outyard). Each outyard ended up being about 15 min away from the next one. This past year the time commitment was significantly higher, even though the hive numbers weren't. I used to spend an afternoon about every other week working the bees. This past year it was about 6 hours a week, every week. But, I could easily increase to 60 hives without increasing the work. I just don't think I'd be able to sell all that honey right now. Better off increasing in future years and selling splits these years.
> 
> If you haven't managed multiple outyards, I'd suggest giving it a try BEFORE you expand too quickly.


How u go about finding an outyard?


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## Specialkayme

jcolon said:


> How u go about finding an outyard?


Drive around, shake hands, meet people, meet friends of people. I get people that ask me to put bees on their property. But it didn't start out that way. 

I tried craigslist in the past, found I could sometimes find a decent outyard. Mostly bad results from there though. One guy responded and told me I could keep bees on his property, but he wanted 50% of the honey. I asked what crops he had, he said corn. I just laughed.


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## RAK

hey Wendy, when are you going to make a NutroB page lol.t:


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## RAK

jcolon said:


> How u go about finding an outyard?


Driving around is a good way. Also if you know of any retiring beekeepers, you could always ask to take over his/her yards...


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## grozzie2

jcolon said:


> How u go about finding an outyard?


We sell our honey at a gate stand. Lots of folks that buy honey from the stand, will offer a place to put more bees. Had one just last week, only a 10 minute drive from here, offered a spot at the edge of 5 acres of apple trees.


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## Randy Andy

grozzie2 said:


> We sell our honey at a gate stand. Lots of folks that buy honey from the stand, will offer a place to put more bees. Had one just last week, only a 10 minute drive from here, offered a spot at the edge of 5 acres of apple trees.


You might want to check what the spray schedule is on apples! Around here they spray every 7-10 days march through September. Best of luck


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## Beekkirk

Thanks for all the valuable input, although the thread was alittle hijacked with chitter chatter. Last sunday i drove down to Mann Lake pa to pick up the 250 hive bodies at $8.40 each. Overall i feel I made out well with their bulk pricing and black friday sale. They sure did not want to give me any discount for picking up the frames, foundation and feeders, so i let them suck up the shipping costs. I bought 5 gallons of Copper Nap.

What ratio of diesel to 8% copper naphthenate do i use to get down to 2% concentration? I cant seem to wrap my brain around an equation to figure that one out. 

Im thinking of dipping the unassembled hive bodies in a large tray and rotating them on end on all 4 sides. They will be treated 2-3" around all edges this way i can dip more at the same time and they will dry faster. I believe there is no need to treat the center of the boxes anyway and its just wasted material. What do you guys think?


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## Randy Andy

I m not familiar with the copper treatment. I guess I just never thought it was safe for the bees. Also, I've never seen any commercial guys using it. That being said, are you looking for 2% of the solution you bought per gallon or 2% of the actual active copper. The latter would be 1gallon to four diesel. I don't know if I would dip hives in diesel fuel though. 

Dadant has free shipping until Monday and their frame feeders are very cheap like 3.00 if you buy 250. Check the foundation from Mann lake I've hap problems with wax foundation fitting in frames correctly


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## Ian

Use mineral oil rather than diesel


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## Roland

To the best of my knowledge, Copper naphthalate was to be used only for hive stands or pallets, and not for beehive parts. Consult the label. If it got in your honey, it could all be rejected and disposed of. 

Crazy Roland


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## Makin' Honey

I use copper naphthalate on every box, lid and bottom. I used diesel on the last 300 boxes and will not use it again, it takes too long for it to 'dry'. Lowe's has paint thinner in the five gallon can, it works great. I cut the copper 1 to 5. Here in the southeast with the high rainfall it adds years to the equipment. I've never noticed any negative effect to my bees. I have my copper naph mixed in a 55g drum, with the new equipment I put it in unassembled and place a concrete block on it overnight. The same with repaired equipment just cant get as much in each load.


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## Beekkirk

thanks for the advise. Ive been dipping my unassembled equipment for a week now in cop nap, diluted with mineral spirits. How long do you wait, after dipping, till you assemble your hive bodies? Im worried about proper glue adhesion.


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## deknow

+1. ...this is not a good practice by any measure. People buying honey don't want their honey coming from such treated boxes..and that is true on a retail, wholesale, amd market wide basis. It is exactly the kind of practice that ends up being a media event...and will reflect negatively on commercial honey production.


Roland said:


> To the best of my knowledge, Copper naphthalate was to be used only for hive stands or pallets, and not for beehive parts. Consult the label. If it got in your honey, it could all be rejected and disposed of.
> 
> Crazy Roland


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## Beekkirk

Ive still yet to see proof of anyone finding traces of cop nap in honey from treated boxes. Of the 3 commercial beeks i personally know they dip all there equipment. 
Here is my dipping set up,








Anyone have a cheap solution to stop feeders from bowing in, or is this never a problem. Ive only used and seen ones with the cap and ladder and im planning on running with out them. 







I plan on making a hardware cloth fan for a ladder and stapling in a short piece of wood in the middle of the feeder to stop this problem.


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## Randy Andy

You got it just screw a small block of wood in the middle at the top! It keeps the feeder from bowing in or out!


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## Beekkirk

Randy Andy said:


> You got it just screw a small block of wood in the middle at the top! It keeps the feeder from bowing in or out!


thanks! thats what i was thinking


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## The Honey Householder

I've never hear of anyone that dips their equipment before assembling them. Those box parts are GREEN. Would love to see the video of the assembly.inch:


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## deknow

I can imagine it's like gluing two sticks of butter together....on a warm day.


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## Beekkirk

Makin' Honey said:


> I use copper naphthalate on every box, lid and bottom. I used diesel on the last 300 boxes and will not use it again, it takes too long for it to 'dry'. Lowe's has paint thinner in the five gallon can, it works great. I cut the copper 1 to 5. Here in the southeast with the high rainfall it adds years to the equipment. I've never noticed any negative effect to my bees. I have my copper naph mixed in a 55g drum, with the new equipment I put it in unassembled and place a concrete block on it overnight. The same with repaired equipment just cant get as much in each load.


Well i conducted a test by gluing, tite bond 3, to pieces of wood that were soaked in cop nap together and it did not hold for jack crap. Whats your take on this makin honey? How long do you wait till assembly after dipping? Luckly i picked up a 15 gal container full of 8d 2.5" stainless steal ring shank nails for $50 yesterday. Them things should do the trick


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## Randy Andy

I would glue the boxes before if your gonna dip them.


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## Lburou

Didn't I read about an interaction with some miticides and the copper naphthalate? It was something about the bees not finding their way home after exposure to the miticide plus the copper naphthalate...?

Added: It was Coumaphos and copper naphthalate, Here


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## Beekkirk

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0076536

I read most of that study and they never actually came to any conclusions on copper naphthenate.


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## Randy Andy

Everybody does things different i hope everything works out for you. I'm Leary of anything on the inside of the hives. I would definitely assemble the equipment before you do anything with coatings. Even if the copper dip dries well it will definitely effect the adhesion of the glue. I've always used tire bond II and 7/16x1 1/2 staples. Potato pototo. Glue is the strongest part of the box joint. Best of luck. I'm a little envious of all your bee goodies. I love building hives and keeping bees. I'm a kid in a candy shop when I look and Dadant, Mann Lake, and Walter t Kelley


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## Lburou

Beekkirk said:


> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0076536
> 
> I read most of that study and they never actually came to any conclusions on copper naphthenate.


Here is a study concluding no ill effects, another gap in my education ;-)


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## Makin' Honey

I don't glue any joints. Just nail it together after copper naph has dried enough to not be wet to the touch. I grew up in a commercial operation out west and we never glued. I have boxes we made and assembled 40 and 50 years ago and they still are tight. Now that is dove tailed joints and nailed not stapled. I don't like dipping frames in copper naph! You sure enough see the copper getting into the wax but copper in the box dries up and the bees put a wax coat over it and it seems there is no interaction with the bees or honey. It is so widely used here in the south I would think there would be info out about it getting in the honey (but that is me thinking!). Yes I understand bees memory is affected by copper naph but that is when it is fresh, it doesn't continue for the next 20 years. It seems to me that when all the carrying agents dry out of the wood all that is left is the copper? 
When I moved to the south 30+ years ago from Nebraska none of my equipment was dipped just a coat or two of latex paint and the hives just sit on the ground. Well I had some serious lessons to learn and that I did the hard way! I was soon talking to the local guys how they kept their equipment from termites and ROTTING. Copper is the answer for rot, it doesn't stop termites.


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## Randy Andy

I'd love to see these 50 year old, tight, non glued boxes! Have they been on the shelf for 50 years or in the field?


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## Makin' Honey

Well it sounded like all of them were still in operation. Obviously they are not. I do have some, several that are from that time. I know because my father had me make from scratch 1000 boxes the summer of 1972. I broke away from him buying 500 hives out of his 5000 so I got some of them and they like all boxes slowly go away but yes I still do have some in operation. It is interesting to me how to the regular person all bee boxes look the same but when you make your own there are small differences that set them apart from all the other boxes and you always know those boxes.


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## Randy Andy

Makin' Honey said:


> Well it sounded like all of them were still in operation. Obviously they are not. I do have some, several that are from that time. I know because my father had me make from scratch 1000 boxes the summer of 1972. I broke away from him buying 500 hives out of his 5000 so I got some of them and they like all boxes slowly go away but yes I still do have some in operation. It is interesting to me how to the regular person all bee boxes look the same but when you make your own there are small differences that set them apart from all the other boxes and you always know those boxes.


I totally understand building your own boxes. I made about 50 last year and the handles are a dead give away that they're mine. I hold certain pride in what I make!


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## Makin' Honey

We are having summer in December! So I go out to see what is happening with the bees. I've been feeding the light ones the last several weeks a normal thing I do this time of year but usually the temps are much cooler. So looking into the brood nest I find the queen is cranking up and I have in some hives two frames of eggs! I'm hoping that is not a bad thing? 

Anyway there were a couple of those old boxes I mentioned in a previous post. Here are the photos. The first photo is a 50 year old box that's been repainted a couple of times. The second is a 40 year old box. No glue, just nailed.


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## Roland

1972??? They should look like new. We have numerous deeps in service that my father made right after WWII. As mentioned before, the hand holds are the giveaway, stacked saw blades.

Crazy Roland


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## odfrank

Aren't Mann Lake's treated bottom boards done with copper napthenate? Sure smells like it.

"Treated Bottom Board
Your assembled bottom board has been treated with a non-toxic; arsenic free copper
based wood preservative. This product has been used extensively in apiculture for over
20 years. You will enjoy many years of use with a properly treated bottom board.
Mann Lake Ltd. 800-880-7694"


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## Beekkirk

They are dipped in cop nap. When i was a mann lake in pa i was told they were.


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## Beekkirk

Well the beautiful weather today allowed me to bust into my hives. Went into winter with 25 hives, just check them all today. Lost 2 that were 5 framers doomed from the get go. It was an experiment, could have combined them but wanted to let it play out. I have 23 hives that are all very strong and heavy. Gonna throw on some patties soon. Im buying 20 packages and my current hive count goal is 120 for this time next year. I have just about built all my equipment that I bought from mann lake. I sourced a few more yards also. Things are looking good!\


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## Randy Andy

If they all look as nice as that picture you're on your way to some nice bees for the season. I just started putting parties on today. This weather is beautiful, I can't wait to spend some more time checking on the girls tomorrow.


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## Beekkirk

Half of my hives are like the pictured one, the other half have more bees. Im impressed by how well my bees look right now and extremely excited for this upcoming season.


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## RAK

If you want to glue after dipping, a water based copper solution is available.


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## Fusion_power

> I just started putting parties on today.


I like parties, especially when the weather is nice.


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## Beekkirk

Anyone have problems with comb being built in the division board feeder?


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## Randy Andy

I assume everyone has trouble with comb in the feeder. Especially if your bees are out of space I had comb filled with brood on a packed double deep this week. If it's just honey I usually cut it out. 

How are your bees doing this crazy spring? I think the only thing that's keeping mine from swarming is the cold weather. I plan to split off nucs tomorrow and Tuesday.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Ya it happens quite a bit we just keep feeding


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## paul24

Beekkirk said:


> Anyone have problems with comb being built in the division board feeder?


That's not a problem. Everybody loves some extra wax lol The hard part though is cleaning it.


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## Beekkirk

Well my queens were supose to be here on April 15th but they have been delayed a week. I already had a hive with swarm cells. If I dont have queens by the end of the week I'm in trouble. Getting to 100 hives shouldn't be a problem this year


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## bkeading

making a living with bee's in my opinion is really tough, especially if you are like me and started everything from the ground up. by no means am I a (big bek) only 125, but when you get the ball rolling it will and does grow never give up, more power to you!


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## Beekkirk

Need some help!!!

I had some hives with swarm cells. I busted them apart into 2-3 frame nucs destroying all cells and it was about 9pm with a head lamp when i finished. Original queens all found and and doing fine now in there split. Got up the next day and introduced queens at 6:00 am. 24 hours later went back to these nucs and found emergency cells in some. Others had remade swarm cells on the bottom of frames, or are these emergency cells just on the bottom? I also found a few queens that were already released and being balled. So i got all queens back in there cages and pertinently caged them. Of about 20 nucs i made up 17 or so have done this. What should i do now? Leave the queens in, destroy e/swarm, leave them be for a day and then release them and check back a hour later to see if shes balled?


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## deknow

1. Are those mated queens, or virgins?

2. What are you trying to accomplish?


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## tech.35058

I am just a newbie hobby-ist beek from way down south.
If you want to force the bees to use your purchased queens, use a "long release method. Continue to remove the QC until the bees have nothing make queens from. Then they will accept or die..
Expect that they may supersede immediately after the Q starts laying, tho. good luck ... CE


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## Beekkirk

They're mated queens. Thanks tech, that's what I've been doing just wanted to make sure that is the best option.


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## bkeading

Try to leave your splits queen less for a minimum of 24hrs before introducing your queens either virgin or mated, then if they have any cells started remove them, leave the mated or caged virgin in the new split (nuc) for 5 to 6 days then release them (virgin intro is a little more tricky), has worked for me every time hope this helps.


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## B&E

Every bit of advice is conflicting. In the spring we always put the queens in immediately. Ie: 2 seconds after they're split. Works well. I see no advantage to waiting to introduce. The new queen should tear down those cells once she's out if they're emergency cells.


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## Huntingstoneboy

Swarm cells???? I am near Binghamton NY....and I would guess a couple weeks from seeing swarm cells, even in my 5 over 5s that are getting crowded.


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## tech.35058

Ummm, maybe I should have spelled that _l-o-n-g_ release method.
as in http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/knighttaberdews.html
You have already "followed the rules" that other swear is the "only way" with poor results.
I have a few hives that are hard to requeen, even when they make their own from a cell.
I had figured I might use the method described on the cushman site, but decided I wanted to keep the original genetics, so I have not tried that method yet.
Good Luck! CE


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## Beekkirk

Purchased a lega vaporizer. This thing is awsome! Anyone have any recommendations for a full face mask respirator? 
I was thinking of getting this.....https://www.shopcross.com/product/d...FfS-UJ4Ko1jFQyeO-UftXSYCGe67-S07qgBoC7pvw_wcB


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## Allen Martens

Very impressed with this one. Works very well.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B009P...respirator&dpPl=1&dpID=51zXQ2uUT9L&ref=plSrch


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## Brad Bee

gmcharlie said:


> Stick with the Mann lake feeder, for the price and quality its the best option, the mother load feeders are not the quality.
> Get the cap and ladder system SHB larve pretty well get trapped in the feeder, and bees don't


"mother lode feeders are not the quality." 

I don't see how, if you've actually held one in your hands that you can truthfully make that statement. I bought a case of Mother Lode feeders last year and I think I could run over them with my truck and they'd be fine. They are extremely high quality, very durable and may last longer than most of us will.

EDIT: I read later in the thread that it is mainly the wooden top of the Mann Lake feeders that you seem to prefer. I don't use the tops or ladders that came with the Mother Lode feeders. I put a floating strip in each one. No drownng.


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## Beekkirk

Any pollination brokers on the east coast? Thinking of trying to get 50-60 hives rented out for pollination next year.


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## Randy Andy

I don't know what you want to pollinate locally, but I don't think you want a broker to rent out 50-60 hives. I would try and get your name out there and talk to some growers. Explain what you have to offer. I think with a bit of leg work you should be able to lease out your hives by next year.


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## cheryl1

At what point would it be worth talking to a broker?


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## JRG13

I think brokers like talking semi loads.... which is around the 400 mark. Sometimes you can piggy back smaller loads though or if they don't have enough to fill out another full one.


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## Beekkirk

I was thinking of trying to send something to blueberry up north, I just don't wanna be calling around stepping on other guys toes. My thought is that maybe there are brokers who have growers that need bees and it would simplify thing on my end. I'm not so interested in getting multiple 10 hive or so contracts but that may be my only option since I'm just getting my name out there.


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## JRG13

Never hurts to try, or if you know any other commercial guys, see if your hives can help fill a load with theirs.


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## Sunday Farmer

Beekkirk said:


> I was thinking of trying to send something to blueberry up north, I just don't wanna be calling around stepping on other guys toes. My thought is that maybe there are brokers who have growers that need bees and it would simplify thing on my end. I'm not so interested in getting multiple 10 hive or so contracts but that may be my only option since I'm just getting my name out there.


You must have small squash and blueberry growers in that CT River Valley from Hartford to Deerfield.


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## Beekkirk

Man would I kill for comb right now!!! Im up to 110 hives and sold 35 nucs this year! Absolutely amazing year for raising bees. Its been extremely hard staying on top of my hives to keep them from swarming, working with only foundation and holding another 50+ hour job. Hopefully things will be different next year when I will have comb from all my honey supers. Definitely need a little rain to keep this flow going, starting to burn up. Gonna try to sell 150 nucs next year, fingers crossed.


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## Randy Andy

just curious how you went from 23 hives And 20 packages to 110 hives and sold 35 nucs. Just curious how you were able to make soo many splits and make honey!🐝🐝🐝 sounds like your apiary is really growing


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## Beekkirk

Id have to look at my notes/dates as I'm a little fuzzy but we were about a month early this year compared to most from what Ive heard from other beeks. I was feeding pollen subs in jan and feb and lots of sugar syrup up untill mid May. That got them cranking real early and kept them going. We had a very mild winter. Most years we average 11 plowable snow storms. This year we had 3 maybe 4. The past 3-4weeks we've been in a really good flow and I'm probably going to start to do some equalizing soon. Some hives are 13+ frames of brood others are only 6 frames of brood.


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## Beekkirk

Launched a website and have 11 preorders for 2017 nucs in one week. My goal is to make and sell 150+ nucs next year.
http://www.heritageapiaries.com/
Started to make my summer splits in 5/5 coates style nucs. Already made 30 and im gonna try to make another 20 in the next few nights.
Looks like im going into winter with 115 ish full size hives and 50 ish 5/5.


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