# Is anybody still using Oxalic Acid



## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

The title says it all. I wonder how many people still use it.


----------



## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

I used it on some of my hives this year. I am wondering why you think no one is using it though?


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

I have used OA in the past. Seemed to be very hard on bees and queen.

After bees are broodless, a drip-style treatment "can" be used to remove V-mites LEFT OVER from EARILER "main" treatment.


----------



## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

I vaporize it. 2 treatment in spring and 2 in fall. Cost less that .10 per hive per year. Lots of dead mites


----------



## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

I would also add Danno from my brief experience it does not seem to be very hard on the bees either. Has this been your experience with vaporizing also?


----------



## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

jdpro5010 said:


> I used it on some of my hives this year. I am wondering why you think no one is using it though?


There used to be lots of chatter about it, but not now.


----------



## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

Understood. Was hoping you hadn't heard anything bad about it besides the usuals.


----------



## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

jdpro5010 said:


> I would also add Danno from my brief experience it does not seem to be very hard on the bees either. Has this been your experience with vaporizing also?


this has been my experience for the last couple of seasons. I have about 30 colonies and this is all I've used. I'm talking vapor here. the dribble method is hard on them including brood


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I've hear vaporizing oxalic can be very dangerous to the applicant.
While dribble or spray is relatively safe to apply.


----------



## Karen Amelia (Oct 4, 2009)

Where are folks using oxalic acid getting their crystals? Do you trust the hardware stores supply? One of the beekeeping supply places told me to shop at the hardware store but I'd like that confirmed by other beekeepers. I'm leery of "inert ingredients" and such other secrets of chemical products.


----------



## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Lowes


----------



## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

danno said:


> I have about 30 colonies and this is all I've used. I'm talking vapor here. the dribble method is hard on them including brood





KQ6AR said:


> I've hear vaporizing oxalic can be very dangerous to the applicant.
> While dribble or spray is relatively safe to apply.


:s:scratch::s:scratch:


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Oxalic acid vapors are a very dangerous substance to humans, dribble is safer. I remember something about crystals reforming in the hive after vaporization and posing a hazard to the beekeeper when working these colonies at a future visit. Also that it could contaminate the honey. Is no one concerned about this anymore?
Sheri


----------



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Sorry Sheri you’re totally wrong. Oxalic acid is water soluble and the microscopic fine crystals from OA fog melt with in a short time because of the moisture in the hive. The result is, the whole hive has liquid acid and as soon as the mites coming in contact they are dead. 

Now I’m sure, somebody comes with the idea this liquid acid is even more danger to humans. If the housewife peels rhubarb she has more oxalic acid on there hands than a beekeeper who works on his hives for the whole year. If you worried about your honey….don’t eat it, OA is a natural ingredient of honey. OA is also in almost all vegetables…don’t eat veggies. 

This treatment is much better to bees than dribbling OA because they are not getting wet. Wet bees clean each other get acid in there stomach and age very fast. There a lot of info on the internet.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I would be happy to be wrong about this. I do remember reading about reforming of crystals. Maybe it was shown to not be a problem?

I am not wrong about it being dangerous but it may be a case such as with Formic. One slight breath of the stuff is enough to make you hold your breath, get out of there and recheck the mask.
I don't know much about Oxalic Acid but can't it be used at temps below some of the other stuff? That would be a big plus to northern beeks, especially on a year like this one with early cold temperatures.
Sheri


----------



## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

With my 12 volt heater and 20ft of cord, I am a long way from the burn and always up wind. The bee's dont even get upset over a treatment. There are more dangerous things under your kitchen sink


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>Sorry Sheri you’re totally wrong . . .
No, not TOTALLY! 

With all due respect, the most current info I have says the dust (when mixing) and the vapors (when heating to melt crystals) are where the health problems occurr. If you can avoid the dust while mixing, the dribble method of application is not harmful to the BEEKEEPER. OA does occur naturally in honey and other food items but not in DUST FORM.


----------



## Tuttle (Jul 4, 2009)

I wish this could finally be resolved, I would really like to use OA vaporized but just don't trust it right now due to some people saying it's safe and some not. 

Since it's approved for bk in Europe has anyone found any studies regarding this matter?


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>studies regarding this matter . . .
It has been tested in US but OA (in any form) has NOT been approved for use in the US.


----------



## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

The reason why it has not been approved is because no one wants to spend the money to get it registered. It is just like BT was approved for a short period but the supplier didn't want to renew because of cost.

Just make sure your are up wind from the hive and use common sense.


----------



## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

Oxalic acid will probably never be approved in the U.S. because of what Magnet-Man said. It has been approved in Europe and Canada which quite frankly are far stricter in approving chemical use for any purpose. If they have approved it I am confident in it. Also if you are vaporizing it correctly in the hive and are 10' or more away from the hive I see very little danger. It is just like anything else when done correctly you will have no issues.


----------



## Scott J. (Feb 6, 2007)

Its not approved treatment for mite control. However you can use it to "clean" your top bars.


----------



## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Oxalic is widely used in the uk,but not legally approved,its organic,and used as a hive cleaner for the wood,if you ever heard of such a load of twaddle.
I have used the sublimation method and find it much better than the dribble method which is used by the majority over here,the dribble method in my opinion and observations does the bee's no good at all,the sublimation method appears to have no bad effects on the bee's,or the beekeeper if used with common sense. The only down side is the time involved.


----------



## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

beekuk said:


> I have used the sublimation method


I understand sublimation, that is skipping a liquid form like dry ice.
I have not heard of that method of application. I assume your not referring to heated vaporization correct. Do you have a link to a site that explains it?

Thanks,
RKR


----------



## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

beekuk said:


> Oxalic is widely used in the uk, ... the dribble method which is used by the majority over here,the dribble method in my opinion and observations does the bee's no good at all, ...



I would like to know the opinions about that from the beekeepers of Scandinavia, too.
They used oxalic acid trickling method long ago. Do they have the same impression? Do they still use it?


----------



## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Evaporation or sublimation of the crystalline solid of oxalic acid, to produce a cloud fine particles that can be used to envelope a honey bee colony so that all bees and particularly the varroa mites on them are exposed to the acid. 

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/oxalicevap.html

Vaporisation of Oxalic Acid

It is possible by applying high temperature to produce a gas directly from the solid form of oxalic acid (powdered). [Sublimation - at 157° Celsius]. By vaporising oxalic acid at the side of the winter cluster the vapour penetrates passively due to the fanning of the bees into every corner of the hive and every external body part of the bees themselves. The gas forms an aerosol with the air within the hive, allowing the lowest oxalic acid concentration of aerosol to achieve the most optimum Varroa mite reduction effect.

http://www.moraybeekeepers.co.uk/Varroa/oxalic_acid_vapourisation.htm


----------



## Blitzz (Feb 13, 2009)

Would this Evaporation/sublimation of the crystalline solid harm the brood?

I am thinking in using one of those electric cooking woks under the SBB.


----------



## Arlo (Sep 16, 2009)

I am going to assume that this type of treatment should only really be accomplished in a highly infested coloney?


----------



## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

Blitzz said:


> Would this Evaporation/sublimation of the crystalline solid harm the brood?
> 
> I am thinking in using one of those electric cooking woks under the SBB.


Sublimation does not harm brood. The quanity in the burn is very small, 4 grams or about 1/16 of a tsp. I needs to be heated in a sealed up hive not outside under a SBB. The heater is a 12 volt diesel glow plug and heats completely in about 60 seconds. The hive is then left sealed for 10 minutes. 85.00 will buy a heater from Canada that is 3/8" high and will slide through the enterance.


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I'll be vaporizing it this weekend and the two weekends after that. This will be the 4th year I've used it. To me it works well. You get great mite drop especially if the hive is not clustered too tightly. If it's in the 40's to 50's I'm happy. I make sure to stand up-wind. http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/Vaporizer.htm

The one I use is the JB200. I've got 9 hives. I hook it up to the battery in my Expedition and I can get them all done in less than 20 minutes. I've got 2 hives in my back yard and I hook it up to one of the moble chargers. I also do drone removal and sugar dusting as IPM to keep the mites off balance.


----------



## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

D Coates, how often do you treat? Do you buy your OA locally or order it from the same site where you bought the vaporizer?


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

my question on using Oxalic Acid has always been, since they say you get 99% control when no brood is present and so most beeks use it late in the fall early winter. Haven't the mites allready compromised your winter bees?
no brood means no more bees for winter, I was taught/learned to treat the mites early enough that they were gone when the queen was raising the winter bees??

mike syracuse


----------



## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

wildbranch2007 said:


> my question on using Oxalic Acid has always been, since they say you get 99% control when no brood is present and so most beeks use it late in the fall early winter. Haven't the mites allready compromised your winter bees?
> no brood means no more bees for winter, I was taught/learned to treat the mites early enough that they were gone when the queen was raising the winter bees??
> 
> mike syracuse


I dont wait until late season broodless for this reason. I do 2 or 3 treatments a week apart right after harvest and again in spring


----------



## Grizbee (Sep 23, 2009)

Hi danno, I sent a PM to perhaps connect locally on this subject, I would really like to add OA to my arsenal


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Ravenseye said:


> D Coates, how often do you treat? Do you buy your OA locally or order it from the same site where you bought the vaporizer?


I treat 3 times at during the late Fall. When it's above freezing, there's next to no brood and the mites are exposed. I bought my Oxalic Acid at the local True Value store. You use very little I don't think I'm even through 1/4 of the container and I bought a little one. Look in the paint section for a container of Wood Bleach. 

http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-16883/Detail This is the exact one I got.


----------



## ga.beeman (Mar 29, 2009)

go www.scientificbeekeeping.com randy has some result he done on this


----------



## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

Wildbranch, I too do not wait until fall to treat my bees. Randy Oliver insists that you must have any treatment done by the 15th of Aug in order to have healthy winter bees. I have used this date also as my target to be done and have been successful so far. I do three treatment vaporized one week apart when I have used OA.


----------



## drfarm (Sep 18, 2009)

i hope to not misdirect the thread. In a german video, they are direct applying a varroacide to package bees. I dont believe it is acid.

http://mkat.iwf.de/iwf/do/mkat/deta...A02000000&Action=Schnell&SearchStr=shook bees

Does anyone have an idea what it might be? Described as a systemic treatment and , I guess, germany approved at that time


----------



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

drfarm 

What you see on the German video is not an acid; they use Perizin (liquid Chumaphos). I would never ever use this nasty pesticide; it contaminates wax and eventually ends up in honey.


----------



## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

I treat once a year, around New Year. I've already discovered that my bees will happily go at least two years between treatments, so under normal circumstances I have no worries about their being overwhelmed. In 2006, they were suddenly overwhelmed with mites in early autumn (I'm pretty sure this was a case of robbing out someone else's collapsing hives), but it was still warm enough to use Apiguard. That's the one scenario I worry about.


----------

