# What actually works to convince Newbees to treat mites ?



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I attend a rapidly expanding "hobby" beekeeper club. The overwhelming majority of its members are planning a "natural" beekeeping method. Most members are 1st or 2nd year newbees.
In an online poll I initiated in August, 4 of 170 were anticipating using MAQS, 2 of 170 would use Oxalic, and 1 of 170 had Amitraz in the cabinet. (I am including myself in those numbers).

One of the 4 using MAQS posted an image on our local FB group after installing the strips.








I uploaded an image following my 4th sequential OAV treatment.








One would think images like that would convince everyone that mite treatment is a necessity.... but, no.

So, what actually changes peoples minds about Varroa? What evidence actually is convincing ?

Do folks have examples of 1st year beekeepers changing course, or is the decision to be "natural" set in stone?


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Good grief did they use the same bottom board for every hive and let the mites pile up? 

Either way, pretty safe to say MAQS works!


----------



## thesecurityeagle (Jun 21, 2016)

JWChesnut said:


> I attend a rapidly expanding "hobby" beekeeper club. The overwhelming majority of its members are planning a "natural" beekeeping method. Most members are 1st or 2nd year newbees.
> In an online poll I initiated in August, 4 of 170 were anticipating using MAQS, 2 of 170 would use Oxalic, and 1 of 170 had Amitraz in the cabinet. (I am including myself in those numbers).
> 
> One of the 4 using MAQS posted an image on our local FB group after installing the strips.
> ...


I approached it with the idea that if natural was possible then good. If not then, I have something for that. I also monitored using a sticky board. I have posted a few mite counts from a 72 hour run very recently. My numbers were super low before treatment. I put a new IPM board in the day I put the Apivar in. That was a week ago Saturday. I will pull that board and count again to see what effect its having. I will also start another board behind that to run a 72 hour test and see where we are each three day cycle. If my numbers go up on my seven day test I will know my treatment is working and that will cause me to adjust my thoughts on sticky boards. If they go down or remain the same I may conclude I was premature on my application (I wanted to avoid the dead out) and next spring I will continue with a au natural approach until I need to go back to treating as perscribed by a rising mite count on my sticky board or alcohol wash if I loose my faith in sticky boards.


----------



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

JW,
I too am a fairly new hobby beekeeper. I started out wanting to be completely natural/ TF. I don't think it was actually other people showing me images of their hive with mites, or talking about it, or reading about that made me
Consider treating. It was a personal decision, that I want to keep my package bees alive that have already been treated. I think once bees rely on un natural methods to fix the mite problem they rely on it. Which most of my/ everyone's bees already do. What most influenced me was thinking about the bee population and how to keep the bees I have at this time alive. Reguardless of treatment methods I think this is the goal we should all strive for. If you buy a full ackage of bees from a large operation that treats regular basis, these bees will not survive without our intervention which could be a few things. Either re queening with a TF queen that can raise brood not dependent on mite treatment, or use treatments. In the end I thought having my hives around next spring, would be beneficial to the bees and my wallet. I want to start a sustainable apiary from these package bees that everyone says you can't do. I want to take them through our long northern winter with plenty of food and mite free and continue to grow my apiary with the bees I have. That's what made me want to treat, I want my bees to be alive in the spring. Bottom line.


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I had trouble convincing my friend to keep up with treatments. That is, until total losses two years in a row.
He would say: They look OK, I don't want to stress them with those treatments.

My neighbor lost all his hives THREE years running before he got me to help with the treatments.

So to answer the question on What actually works?
Death. 

When the mites hit Colorado in '98-'99 I lost 20 of 24 hives. A real eye opener. A bee club friend lost 194 of 200. 
That, along with allergies, knocked me out of beekeeping for about 10 years.

Dead hives send a powerful message. Sadly.


----------



## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Being an ideallist (at least in some areas) my self I know what makes me see reason - failure by my own misstakes.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> So, what actually changes peoples minds about Varroa? What evidence actually is convincing ?
> 
> Do folks have examples of 1st year beekeepers changing course, or is the decision to be "natural" set in stone?


I have equipment from many who bought bees every year for a good number of years and finally threw in the towel. Sadly, the story told of dead bees is one of frozen bees in winter, or contaminated environment not fit for bees or pesticide spray (from any number of sources) or CCD or horticultural outfits watering with neonics.
I get asked by them all the time how my bees are doing . My bees are doing OK, I tell them. I treat for varroa and feed them when necessary. The looks of disapproval I get would stop a badger in it's tracks.
Set in stone? for a great many, yes.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Arnie said:


> So to answer the question on What actually works?
> Death.


Unfortunately, that is so true. 

I wasn't a newbee beekeeper but about 10 years ago I tried to go the "no treatment' route, ignoring the warnings from other local beekeepers, and it ended in a disaster. Almost total losses. Sometimes painful lessons are the best teacher. No matter how many times you tell a child not to touch a hot stove, they don't really get it until they end up with burned fingers. Then they understand.

The best you can do is warn them about what could happen. Let them know the best "new route" they should take when it does occur, and be there to help them through it.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

JWChesnut said:


> So, what actually changes peoples minds about Varroa? What evidence actually is convincing?


IMHO, nothing. TF is a religion for many people. Thus, facts and evidence have nothing to do with the decision.

JMHO


----------



## Briarvalleyapiaries (Feb 26, 2015)

When I was starting out, what convinced me to treat were story's here on beesource about treatment free beekeepers losing 80% of their hives. It seemed like losing that many hives would just be too expensive.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

JWChesnut said:


> One would think images like that would convince everyone that mite treatment is a necessity.... but, no.


Pics of mites on a sticky board might not have much of an impact on a newbee. They have no history or frame of reference as to what those mite counts actually mean. If slides were presented of mite related dead out hives, with frames of dead bees scattered across the comb, it might get through to some of them. For a newbee, mites on a sticky board means little if you have no end result to link it to.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I teach a relatively comprehensive beginning beekeeping series. We meet once a month beginning in December and running through May with a follow up session in August. Lectures on all things bee. Equipment workshop. Three sessions in a beeyard and one in a honey house. Anyone who has taken the class will probably tell you that I am obsessed with varroa. Yet I tell everyone to follow their personal philosophy.
In our March beeyard workshop we made two splits. As nearly identical as we could. Queens from the same source. In our August workshop we do sugar rolls and address end of season concerns. The week before the August class I put an Apiguard tin in one of the March splits and a 'real sticky' sheet on the bottom board. On the day of the class I removed the sheet and counted nearly a thousand mites. I advised the students that this was only the first quarter of the treatment and estimated that there were probably a total of three thousand mites in the hive. Then we opened the sister hive and I challenged them to find any mites. No treatment...probably three thousand mites. To their credit they spotted one.
The long and short...the lady who came to class that had started a hive with tf bees and insisted that she didn't have any mites, went home with two tins of Apiguard and a shim and promised to let me know how many mites they dropped. I've never heard back...so I'm assuming that she changed her mind.....but I got close.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I present the analogy that a mite on a bee is equivalent to a large cat on a human sucking out blood and passing viruses during the exchange. 
Sometimes it works other times....


----------



## Vectorjet (Feb 20, 2015)

I once went to inspect a women's hive because her bees kept dyeing. Her bees were infested with mites and I told her she needed to treat. She refused, and said her bees were varroa resistant and she was a organic beekeeper that blamed all her problems on the poison that everyone used around her. After a couple more years of failure she quit, but never changed her mind, that it was not mites that was the problem,but all the other people who refused to be organic like her.


----------



## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Church of the divine bee.


----------



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I believe everything worthwhile has already been said here but I must agree, Arnie's response is right on the money. I have come to believe that the TF philosophy is a good one but should ONLY be tried by experienced beekeepers. Beginners don't know the signs of a hive in trouble and by the time they recognize it, total loss is imminent. 

Treat the new beekeepers like children. No child ever has respect for fire, until they get burned by it.


----------



## radial (Aug 1, 2016)

Those itty bitty red dots on a sticky board don't seem to significant. But when you show people the critters up close and personal, different story. This image is too large to post, but you can take a peek by clicking here.


----------



## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

ethanhogan said:


> JW,
> 
> . In the end I thought having my hives around next spring, would be beneficial to the bees and my wallet.


Now that is the right attitude.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Famous last words "the last time I checked them they looked really good". 
Here is a simple test anyone can do this time of year. Pull a frame of brood out of the middle of the brood nest. Do they have a "shotgun" pattern and perhaps brood side by side in all different stages, instead of a solid pattern of similar aged brood? If so, they are in trouble and their bee populations are almost certainly in decline.


----------



## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

Part of the issue is we know we prefer mite-resistant bees and splits. But wishing doesn't make it so; most beginners don't source their bees that way, and don't have the skills. 

I also try the analogy -- 
I establish that mites are bee ticks (Jerry Hayes -- "the size of our first attached to our neck") and ask what we do about ticks on our kids or pets -- few of us would just leave them on our kids or pets. Nor do we insist that the kids/pest remove them without our assistance.
And even if the beekeepers are not going to remove the ticks, they need to know how many there are --beginners can at least use a sticky board, even though imperfect, 3 days each month.

And while we are on the subject of comparisons, if the cows have grazed the field down in August, the farmer doesn't let the cows starve but instead gets them some food, even if not as good as fresh forage. 
And just this week I saw a former student -- last summer I told her if she didn't treat her bees she would lose them. (You know what happened.) I'll be telling that story.


----------



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

"What actually works to convince Newbees to treat mites ?" When they get tired of having to pay for more nucs and packages after losing their bees to the mites they will start to treat.


----------



## Geno (Apr 23, 2015)

All has been said, but experience is the best teacher. Those that do not take care of the mites will have dead outs in year two or for sure in three. Those mite bomb hives continue infecting other colonies until one or the other happen, kill the mites or lose the hive. What is not organic about Oxalic Acid?? Monitor the bees pre and post treatment. I think the bees like the OAV treatments. IMO.


----------



## zonedar (May 14, 2015)

I'm a newby. But I read. A lot. 

Hit my hives with MAQS in May (half dose as they were from nucs and not filling out the lower deep yet) and August (full dose). Did an alcohol wash before the Summer one. Will do another wash in October and treat again if necessary. 

Old enough to know that I can learn from the hard experiences of others.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

JWChesnut said:


> I attend a rapidly expanding "hobby" beekeeper club. The overwhelming majority of its members are planning a "natural" beekeeping method....
> 
> ...One would think images like that would convince everyone that mite treatment is a necessity.... but, no.
> 
> ...


Maybe dead hives--their own--but not necessarily. Which is why I no longer bother with bee clubs. I consider beating my head against a stone wall to be a total waste of my time and energy. Instead I invest my time in my bees--my STILL VERY ALIVE bees. I haven't lost a hive in years. 



Rusty


----------



## LittleTreeGuy (Aug 8, 2016)

I can say, as I'm a newbie... (I don't even have any bees yet)... I will be treating for mites. Personally, and this is all my own opinion, and we know what people say about opinions... But I think a lot of it has to do with society as well. People hear "organic" and think that's the way everything should be. It's the same debate with vaccinating kids these days. I have a child. Yea, of course one can choose not to proactively treat, or maybe even treat when there is a small sign or symptom. Maybe the problem will never show up. Then again, when you know there is a very good chance it will, why not protect what you can? Treating is relatively inexpensive considering it can save what you invested in a hive with 50,000 bees in it. The benefits far out-weigh not treating. 

Some are stubborn. Some will lose a lot of bees and then change their minds, others will likely give up beekeeping. I commend the OP for sharing his knowledge and experiences with his club and the new keepers. I'm a new guy and I have been searching out locals who have been keeping bees. I have read several books, and spent countless hours reading forums and watching videos, but I still listen to the local guys who are successful more than anyone else. It's guys like you who keep that fire burning in new keepers like myself. Keep doing what your doing. Don't worry yourself over the 150 who don't have time for your knowledge, instead, give a little extra to the 4 or 5 who do. You will all be better off.


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I teach new beekeepers and I won't take on a student/mentee unless they agree, up front, to treat as necessary to keep varroa under control. I don't want to be involved in the unnecessary loss of bees.

People want to learn how I can keep my bees alive, year after year, with no losses. It's not magic, special bees or my superior beekeeping skills (LOL!). It's my year-round varroa management plan, plain and simple. 

Enj.


----------



## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

superior beekeeping skills === year-round management plan


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

After 4 years of beekeeping, I almost lost my last hive to the mites last year. 
Combined the 2 dying hives together and let them chose their own queen. Then treated them
with my homemade oav gadget in late winter/early Spring. 
Now I have a decent size apiary with many after the solstice mated local queens. To educate the
newbees first then let them make their own decision. Take them through the yearly mite cycle on
every hatch like I did with a small razor blade to cut up the mites in parts on the nitrile glove but spared
the live bees. They will appreciate what they have learned about the mites and bee cycles. 
Maybe they will find that secret place on the bees that the mites are hiding from us. Give them an education about the mites so that they can make an
informed decision to the many treatment options available should they choose to. We cannot make them change their minds unless they have experienced themselves. Time and patience is the key!


Last month's new queen laying drone eggs:


----------



## brownbuff75 (Jul 1, 2013)

I'm not sure what everyones definition on TF is but I put myself in that category because I don't use traditional chemicals to treat mites. My primary control method is splits and brood breaks. I've been at it for 4 years now. My Queens usually last 2 to 3 years before they start to fail. Time will tell if this number goes down. I started with a package and a couple of inherited hives. One thing that I have noticed with my own personal experience and when reading TF people talking about it, all of them seem to have 5 or more hives. I wonder how successful the TF community would be if they only kept 1 or 2 hives. From my own experience I will tell you if I did not do a break down split every year on every hive I would probably lose everything.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

With 12-13 strong hives you can test out the theory of recovery after the (mite) crash without any treatment.
Then graft from the survivors to repopulate your apiary. A break down split will not take out the mites completely.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

In the believe it or not catagory, there was a thread here on Beesource maybe a year or so ago posted by a guy who had lost all his bees, every year, for 7 years straight. He bought new packages every year. His question was, did people think he should start treating.

I told him in my opinion yes, to which he said maybe he'll just try another year. I answered him again saying is not 7 years straight same thing every time enough to want change now, not after another year. but no, he wanted to do it again another year.

At that point I left him to it, didn't reply again, his mind obviously made.


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

The answer..... TIME.
In time they will come to realize (after thousands of dead bees and numerous dead outs) they need to treat. Or at least they should.


----------



## tnmtn (May 27, 2016)

For us new beekeepers reading all this, I'll ask two questions.

1. What is your year round management plan?

2. Our UT extension says it is usually not necessary to treat in the first year. My mentor said to pull larvae out of drone cells and look for mites. If there were more than 2 out of 5 with mites, it's time to treat. What say you all?


----------



## Planner (Apr 3, 2016)

You are absolutely correct bees will get mites. I will be testing my hives today and I know what to expect. However I think you forgot to inquire about how many beekeepers actually protect themselves from the toxic chemicals used to kill mites. The commercial bee keepers have no choice as economically they can not afford to purchase bees every year. Hobby bee keepers such as myself have a choice. I do not want to expose myself to OA or any other toxic chemical, and yes my health comes before the bees. I also don't want any possible residue in my comb or hives. I do experience high losses but will continue to attempt to be TF and will purchase new bees and raise queens as needed.I donate my proceeds from the sale of honey for cancer research and I donate some of my honey to cancer patients, and I do not want to give them honey that in my opinion is tainted with chemicals. I expect there will be treatments forthcoming that will not be so toxic and ultimately wipe out mites, but until then I will stay the course. It is rather ironic that most of us initially start with a package of bees that are already sick with disease and with poor quality queens and then attempt to maintain this genetic pool of sickly insects. I believe it is worth the effort to try and preserve the genetics of survivor bees and queens. Yes, easier said then done. In the years ahead there will be hundreds of beekeepers that will be very sick from applying chemicals without proper protection. These patients will present themselves to their physician with symptoms related to lung ,kidney and other diseases, and have no idea as to why they have ruined their health. If you desire to protect your bees , I suggest you protect yourself first.


----------



## MariahK (Dec 28, 2014)

I'm assuming after their hives start dying they will most likely try again but with mites treatments. Unfortunately those bees are going to have to die for it to happen.


----------



## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

We all are grown ups and some of us took up this as hobby / learning experience. Why convince ? I am a first year beekeeper, acquired best TF queens I could, but also purchased a VSH and raised a local swarm daughter. Recently I treated all hives with OAV after an episode (you can read it in decease & pests section) that resulted in split opinions of pesticide vs mites. 

I treated this year because I know I never gave those bees any chance at brood breaks, stable hive or enough work force to begin the year. 

Another beek in town lost two hives in her first year after following treatment schedule to the dot. She lost queens in second year after following treatment to the dot. I am not blaming it on treatments or queens. That could have very well been newbee mistakes of hive management. Spring / Fall stories at the bee club I attend (which is all treatment advocates) are filled with lost hives. 

I read certain "TF Yahoo Group" and came across a post where "subtle movements inside earth causing DWV", really ? Then I came across people who suggest feeding antibiotics to bees on monthly basis, really ? So yeah, there are fringe elements on both sides. 


Point is, I am in this for experience. Let me experience it, help me on the way (if you want to) rather than being sarcastic or judgmental. 


I am grateful to this forum and people for their insights , opinions and advice I received from all sides so I can make my own calls.


----------



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

"It is rather ironic that most of us initially start with a package of bees that are already sick with disease and with poor quality queens and then attempt to maintain this genetic pool of sickly insects." A lot start out with healthy bees and mites work on them and that newbee then blames the people who they bought from and claim they were sold sickly bees.All they have to do is treat their bees.OAV is not a long lasting thing in a hive like strips you put in for weeks at a time and then twice a year is very little.Its organic and every time you sit down to that big glass of cold sweet tea you are taking in some of that same old OA just like you are using on your bees.Or that rhubarb you eat.Its full of OA.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I think many Treaters don't understand. It is not that a TF'er doesn't understand mites or not care, etc., (although that is the case for some newbies) it is that a TF beek doesn't want to put treatments into his/her hive. The focus is keeping "chemicals" out of the hive, not whether the hive or the mites live or die. It is a matter of approaching beekeeping from a different perspective and mindset than a T beekeeper.

JMHO


----------



## cervus (May 8, 2016)

snapper1d said:


> .Its organic and every time you sit down to that big glass of cold sweet tea you are taking in some of that same old OA just like you are using on your bees.Or that rhubarb you eat.Its full of OA.


Don't forget peanuts, pecans, wheat bran, spinach, beets and beet greens and chocolate soy foods, sweet potatoes, black tea, berries and other dark leafy greens, like Swiss chard and collards.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

shinbone said:


> .... a TF beek doesn't want to put treatments into his/her hive. The focus is keeping "chemicals" out of the hive, not whether the hive or the mites live or die.


That is a great point. The well informed new beekeeper who is dedicated to going TF, no matter what the cost, is never going to be convinced to treat for mites. They have already made up their mind what direction they are going to take, and are well aware of the obstacles and losses they will most likely face. There are no surprises, and they just live with the results.


----------



## tnmtn (May 27, 2016)

Mike Gillmore said:


> That is a great point. The well informed new beekeeper who is dedicated to going TF, no matter what the cost, is never going to be convinced to treat for mites. They have already made up their mind what direction they are going to take, and are well aware of the obstacles and losses they will most likely face. There are no surprises, and they just live with the results.



So, is it possible to encourage mite resistance in this way?


----------



## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

I don’t get where people, and pointed to no person in particular, but at the ideology itself; that bees being attacked by a physical force and dying by the transmission of pathogens, that the bees that die due to having bad sickly genes.

Here is an example:

I walk in to the woods, and there is this squirrel that has a pathogen, let’s say rabies. The squirrel now runs over, does a full 760 spin with a flip, and bites me. This squirrel is attacking me with physical force; the rabies it just gave me is a pathogen that it is carrying. Left untreated I will die. Now let’s say this same squirrel is coming down to bite me, and I knock it away with a stick, and while stunned on the ground, I step on its head and kill it. My genes had nothing to do with me protecting myself. It had everything to do with using a physical force.

Organic mite componds are a physical force, they do real harm to the mite. The bees genes are not sickly, protecting the bees hive is not propagating sickly bees, it is saving the massive gene pool that bees have.

JMHO


----------



## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I equate treatment free beekeeping to being a POW. Having been one I can tell you it is not at all a pleasant experience. Extremely painful both mentally and physically. However those who have the fortitude can survive the situation. However the question remains are they better human beings for it? Should we expose all humans to the terrors of the experience in order to develop an race of people who are stronger. 
Putting bees through the tortures of infestation and the subsequent Viral infections vectored by mites, in hopes of forcing an evolutionary transition with a positive outcome. That may take hundreds of years normally with an unknown degree of success equates to imposing the same hardships upon the bees we profess to so greatly care for. As that imposed on the Jews by the Nazis in experiments to determine human tolerances of pain and ability to continue to heal.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

since we are talking about newbees, i think most of what has been posted here makes good sense. especially since bee suppliers having success managing bees off treatments represent a pretty slim minority in the universe of beekeepers.

because of that it's not likely that most newbees will be able to procure mite resistant bees to start their apiaries with, but rather be purchasing their first bees that come with a history of being dependent on treatments, and which are not likely to somehow beat the mites when withdrawn cold turkey from those treatments.

i think it's important to note there is another important reason why some of us are allowing the selection process to play out by not treating. as randy oliver points out we are aware of bee populations that have developed resistance to mites. he further points out that without at least some of us engaging in selecting for that trait a valuable opportunity will be missed in terms of moving our livestock forward with respect to biological resistance.

not to be repetitive, and in the spirit of reciprocating the respect that the community has been showing us in the treatment free sub forum, and because it's actually how i feel about the subject...

i have no issue with anyone who wants to or needs to apply blanket treatments with the goal of minimizing losses and maximizing production. i was fully prepared to do the same when i first started and...

i'm not avoiding treatments because i think that all chemicals are evil, nor because of any particular world view, nor because i want to follow the drum beat of this or that particular group, nor because i'm lazy, ill-informed, cheap, or stupid...

i'm not treating because i've found myself having been blessed with stewardship of an extremely valuable resource and i am trying to do what i feel is right thing given that responsibility.

it's the more challenging path to take, which suits me just fine, but may not be for everybody. it would be much easier to just apply treatments and take from the apiary all that it has to give, and i honestly don't begrudge anyone who approaches beekeeping like that.

but for me it's about trying to give something back and trying leaving the resource in better shape that how i found it. i think it's commendable that commercial operators like randy oliver and our own jim lyon are investing the time and effort into the selection process and doing what they can to advance the bees' natural ability to resist varroa mites.

that not everyone has the same motivation is not surprising because as mentioned we are a very diverse group, and as far as i'm concerned and as long as one's bees are kept responsibly as to not threaten nearby colonies, i believe there's room for all...

"and that's all i have to say about that" quoted from forrest, forrest gump.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

When you are poor you are poor!
Being poor and pretend that you are rich will get you in trouble
sooner or later.
When the bees had the resistance built in then they will live!
Raising the package bees without any resistant and expected them to
survive with the mites is like pretending that you are rich when you're not.
If the package bees can deal with the mites then we don't have this dead out issue every year.
To screen the hives for the mite biting traits looking for a potential resistant breeder queen took 
the beekeeper 2 weeks to get back to me. Either they have it or they don't. Putting too much mite
pressure on the hives will caused them to just pack up and leave. Bees are smarter than we think!


----------



## Planner (Apr 3, 2016)

A lot of disagreement on this subject but its nice to see a civil discourse. I doubt this forum will change anyones mind but it does provide a valuable resource.


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Great question! I have been using a "Welcome to Agriculture" talk the opening night along with having the class read Randy Oliver's Queens for Pennies. Talking about the so called Organic nature of some miticides helps - but I've been uneasy about the Organic term since it was co-opted by USDA. Live stock and dead stock. And my preference to work with Live stock.


----------



## Geno (Apr 23, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> In the believe it or not catagory, there was a thread here on Beesource maybe a year or so ago posted by a guy who had lost all his bees, every year, for 7 years straight. He bought new packages every year. His question was, did people think he should start treating.
> 
> I told him in my opinion yes, to which he said maybe he'll just try another year. I answered him again saying is not 7 years straight same thing every time enough to want change now, not after another year. but no, he wanted to do it again another year.
> 
> At that point I left him to it, didn't reply again, his mind obviously made.


We all know that doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results is INSANITY.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

If beekeepers have created their own disasters, and haven't learned from their mistakes, then what is to be learned from their basic ignorance of ecology, adaptation and genetics? The plead to treat lacks a coherent scientific basis. 

The track record is lousy, and doesn't make scientific sense and contributes to poor genetics, and leads to contaminated hive products if the right products aren't used. The biggest problem with TF is that it has a more subtle scientific long term approach, and probably isn't understood well by the majority of people who practice it. But if you get a couple things right (get some decent genetics and make some increase) you have some chance of succeeding.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

lharder said:


> their basic ignorance of ecology, adaptation and genetics? The plead to treat lacks a coherent scientific basis.


The entire post is a hugely egocentric opinion stated as though irrefutable fact. In my opinion.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Great representation in this thread from all sides. Basically, you're not going to change someone's opinion one way or the other, so just focus on your own apiary, is what I gather from this.

Beeinformed.org is an ongoing research study of self-reported beekeeper results across the country. In an effort to improve the studies, consider submitting your apiary statistics to them.

Someone from our club did an analysis of a recent year's results (maybe it was last year's) and presented the graphics from the study. The chart here: https://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ManagementPhilosphy-RF.pdf is entitled: "Average Loss in operations with different Beekeeping Management Philosophies." While "treaters" had better overwintering success rates, the difference in die-out rates for different types of treaters/non-treaters was a minimum of 38% colony loss to a maximum of 46% colony loss. Either way, there does not seem to be a panacea, and the difference in survival rates does not justify an ongoing war between methods.

Our presenter went thru much data in the study (there is a huge load of data they collect and report) and the conclusion was that the type of bee (i.e., resistant) was more important than the treatment method when it came to overall results. Of course, I'm just reporting what I heard, I didn't go thru the data myself, so help yourself to it. 

If, of course, the results are truly representative of colonies across the country. So, if you want, consider reporting your own statistics to them, to help all beekeepers come up with solutions that work.

Again, it's https://beeinformed.org/


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I sense lots of emotional grab words here in post #49 instead of purley neutral ones. Maybe a few "I thinks" or "in my opinion" could be used in a few key places! Stating opinion as hard irrefutable fact is not science. I think this amounts to using an appeal to the sanctity of science that is meanwhile using a bit of leading emotionalism to "work" the audience.

There are certainly far more flagrant examples on either side of the general discussion so I am only using this to point out how emotionalism complicates the process of examining all the facets of an issue by biasing their individual impacts. Just come and place your perceptions on the scale and take your hands off. 


I admire the experiments and data collection that is going on with the bee genetic experiments. Don't take away from the value of the scientific process by forecasting what the outcome must of necessity be! That might unfairly suggest less than 100% objectivity.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

crofter said:


> Stating opinion as hard irrefutable fact is not science.


Wait. What? Are you sure? I've been doing it wrong all this time?


----------



## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

Just another opinion. I started last year with two packages. One package I bought from craig's list I know the bees came from the almond harvest. The second package I bought were buckfast bees. I went with small cell and fountationless for the most part. The craig's list bees did not make it through Fall. I decided to go OAV treatment to get rid of mites in fall and another treatment in December. In August I bought a nuc from local beekeeper. I combined the weak hive with the nuc after having the nuc for about two weeks. 
I now have local bee hive which over wintered last winter. A buckfast hive again over wintered. A local VHS queen hive and a California VHS queen hive. I hope to get them through the winter and start rearing queens with the California queen. Next spring I will get another buckfast queen. 
I will treat using OA until I have a mite count of less than one. I also treat my bees by giving them sugar water, sugar bricks and pollen patties. If I wanted to be all natural I would let the bees decide what to eat and how much to store.
I like enjambre's idea of only mentoring people who agree to a year round treatment plan.

Mary


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

One might try to avoid calling people whose management style is different from yours: 'ignorant'.

That doesn't advance the discussion, and certainly doesn't persuade anyone to your side of the argument. Quite the opposite, in fact.

For the record: I applaud those who are working to develop a mite resistant bee. Go for it; have at it.

But the operative word in the title of this thread that sets it apart from the usual TvsTF war of words is 'Newbee'.
That word suggests someone who picks up a package or nuc from one of the big producers and proceeds to learn the ins and outs of beekeeping. Someone who may not be ready to tackle the TF experience yet.

Beekeeping takes a few years to get a handle on. So unless you are blessed by Lady Luck to start off with a resistant strain of bee, it is advisable to do something to mitigate, or corral, the elephant in the room: MITES!


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Newbees should be allowed and expected to make mistakes in their first years. That's how they learn. Some will stick with beekeeping but most will not. Trying to force people to do what you think is best doesn't always sit well with some. The best you can do is give them the tools and knowledge to go their path. There are plenty of management manipulations that will allow them to not use the traditional treatments but why make it about one way or the other.


----------



## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Delta Bay said:


> Newbees should be allowed and expected to make mistakes in their first years. That's how they learn. Some will stick with beekeeping but most will not. Trying to force people to do what you think is best doesn't always sit well with some. The best you can do is give them the tools and knowledge to go their path. There are plenty of management manipulations that will allow them to not use the traditional treatments but why make it about one way or the other.


AND, we have a WINNER.


----------



## Metis27 (Mar 16, 2016)

I was convinced that MY hives were going to be healthy and not need any mite treatments. I was determined to keep in treatment free. Then , I talked to my mentor. I told him that my hives looked amazing and were just humming along. He said that it is a rare occurrence for ANY hive in Ontario to be mite free. That is all it took. I actually heeded his advise. I am not willing to go into the winter with healthy hives, adequate feed in storage and then lose them to mites. Too much work. Too much money. 
But I think each person needs to figure it out for themselves. Treat/Don't treat. It's up to the beekeeper.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

My intention 10 years ago was to get into beekeeping. I couldn't afford to at the time, given package bees were far more money than I could justify spending. Best thing that ever happened to me. After years of off and on research, made it happen 7 years later with homemade TBHs and swarm trapping. Had I started 10 years ago, knowing what I know now, what a complete failure my entrance into beekeeping would have been. I am treatment free because I can be. So far, so good.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

in the spring of 2014 two entry level beekeepers not having any bees bought nucs from me containing queens grafted from my longest lived and better producing colonies.

in the summer of 2015 another beekeeper bought a few nucs from me to start his apiary. 

all three now sophomore beekeepers are having great success off treatments with high survival, good productivity, and strong enough to split in the spring, and this is without any supplemental feeding.

all three are finding it easy enough to increase hive count each year by a combination of making splits, catching swarms, and doing cut outs.

the two from 2014 are harvesting good honey. the 2015 is foundationless and didn't feel comfortably sacrificing the comb to get honey, but probably could have taken some.

thank goodness they are not 'newbees' anymore.

like most other beekeepers, tf beekeepers lose a colony from time to time. most losses appear to be surrounding queen issues, i.e. sexual failure and/or failed mating of the next queen after swarm or supercedure, especially just prior to or during winter.

research has shown that there can be virus damage to the queen's arterioles that have the potential to render her sterile.so the mites could perhaps be and indirectly through the queen be having an impact via vectoring the viruses. 

but as far as pms, dwv, crawlers, sudden die offs with quickly necrosing bees, dysentary, k-wing, ect....

we just don't see it. all of us (and a few more tf keepers i know in the area) are having less than 20% winter loss with colonies strong enough in the spring to make increase. honey production is at or above area averages.

it might be that we are the exception to the rule here. i recognize that the same may not be possible in just any location and there are sometimes other outcomes to tf. i post these experiences to show that it is possible here.

my observations lead me to believe that bees do have it in them to what is needed to intrinsically fend off the harmful effects of the varrroa mite and associated viruses. it's a matter of figuring out what it is that enables that to happen.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> but as far as pms, dwv, crawlers, sudden die offs with quickly necrosing bees, dysentary, k-wing, ect....


This describes my situation. I have seen it, but not from the bees I have propagated, rather from outside queens from reliable TF stock. They survived, but had visible issues. The daughters, further removed, are showing less and less. There is something happening in regard to adaptations at local levels. You would think the TF queen from a huge breeder from outside would have been exposed to far worse than what my local environment would have to offer, but it appeared it wasn't so. I find that's probably a huge piece of the puzzle, whatever is happening in this scenario.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

beemandan said:


> The entire post is a hugely egocentric opinion stated as though irrefutable fact. In my opinion.


Please enlighten me about the scientific basis of treating beyond keeping your bees alive this winter.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

ill let you know if/when I ever decide to treat, but for now I grow exponentially every yr and right now I'm sitting on more honey than what I can quickly move.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Harley Craig said:


> ill let you know if/when I ever decide to treat, but for now I grow exponentially every yr and right now I'm sitting on more honey than what I can quickly move.


 I remove a good number of feral colonies. The comb often tells a story. Some are simple, successful swarms from the current year. Some have clearly wintered over. Some you see the story of bees that died out and the space was repopulated. Sometimes, particularly in early spring, people say they moved in a week ago, when clearly they have overwintered. Sometimes folks will say that the bees have been there for twenty years, or as happened for a cutout that we did at an agricultural research station, for at least thirteen years. 

When the story and the comb match and indicate a longstanding colony, those genetics are valuable. Moreover, those genetics are both a product and a producer of the local breeding population in that immediate area. Within about 25 miles of my location, there is 71% forests, 22% crops (including pasture), and about 4% developed. I'm fairly familiar with many of the managed apiaries. I am also fairly familiar with where new swarm clusters are reported and where cutouts are reported. I also often have a fair idea of the level of aggressiveness and even the color of bee that we are likely to see when called to a particular location. Though, locations can sometimes be surprising.

Like Fusion Power, we have pushed out survivor genetics in the areas where our hives are located. Second generation queens are often our best. I have in the past actually brought in some high born and well regarded Wooten queens to bend the curve of local genetics toward a little more production. 

I guess the bottom line of this, and based on my own experience, I have not seen or experienced what I was told by aggressively treating beekeepers on this forum I would see or experience. I seem to have avoided significant or even material hive loses from varroa. I sell a lot of bees and a lot of honey. I practice a very low impact style of beekeeping. I don't treat, and I can't remember the last time I fed a colony syrup. I seldom inspect hives deeply, but I do systematically, if not frequently, at least check for the existence of worker brood and food. And I do harvest three times a year: "clover", tallow, and goldenrod/aster. I have 30 hives; my goal is 12. 

It is becoming hard for me to place much credibility in what I am told by treatment promoters will happen when other treatment promoters have been so wrong about what they said would have already happened and would be happening now to my hives. My best explanation is that my location on the margin of Africanized hybrid honey bees with a large population of feral bees and my non-use of packages, my non-feeding treatment style and my use of all cedar boxes may have somehow skewed or at least delayed the results that were forecast.

So for me, I would have a hard time following advice based on further predictions until I see different outcomes. I would advise new beekeepers who desire to not treat, to not use non-local bees, treated bees, or package that must be fed.


----------



## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

squarepeg, Harley , David, Nordak,
Have you been able to send queens to other areas of the country to test if they can survive TF in those places? 

There is one beek I know here who has some hives that have survived in his 'neglected' yard. I have one daughter queen from him and will raise a couple from her next year. They are nice bees, gentle , don't swarm.... but also don't produce much surplus. I really like them, except for the 'lazy' attitude they have toward getting ME some honey.

But that local beek is not a newbee, and he loses a high percentage of his bees.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Arnie said:


> squarepeg, Harley , David, Nordak,
> Have you been able to send queens to other areas of the country to test if they can survive TF in those places?
> 
> There is one beek I know here who has some hives that have survived in his 'neglected' yard. I have one daughter queen from him and will raise a couple from her next year. They are nice bees, gentle , don't swarm.... but also don't produce much surplus. I really like them, except for the 'lazy' attitude they have toward getting ME some honey.
> ...


I have sent a couple of queens to a member here on Beesource who lives in CA. It was out of curiosity on my part for the very question you asked. That was in late July of this year, so time will tell. My guess is, they will probably fare about as well as any bees in his environment, but hopefully they will bring him benefit of some sort. I would also state that compared to the other names mentioned, I'm definitely the newbee in the group, and consider my bees under development. I'm hoping to get a larger outyard to allow me some more freedom to do things right. As of now, I'm up to 12 colonies, and just starting to see some predictable patterning (is that a word?) develop in my bees, behaviorally speaking. I'm just a backyard beek doing experimentation at the moment, enjoying what I have.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Arnie said:


> squarepeg, Harley , David, Nordak,
> Have you been able to send queens to other areas of the country to test if they can survive TF in those places?


I haven't tried. I am particularly bad at bulk queen rearing. I'm also of the opinion that beekeeping practices are as essential as the right genetics. Nucs I sell have done well without treatment, but those have sold within 150 miles of where I am.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

lharder said:


> Please enlighten me about the scientific basis of treating beyond keeping your bees alive this winter.





lharder said:


> their basic ignorance of ecology, adaptation and genetics? The plead to treat lacks a coherent scientific basis.


Varroa is an exotic parasite. There is absolutely no evidence that Apis mellifera interacted with this parasite before the early part of the twentieth century. There is an unscientific belief in some circles that our bees have mysteriously acquired the genetics to overcome this parasite yet that hasn't proven to be the case in over a hundred years. In the past forty years or so, thousands of dedicated entomologists and professional queen breeders have spent much of their careers examining the interaction of bees and mites and made countless selections and breeding combinations without finding a silver bullet. 

Most, if not all, of those professionals recommend treating. You, on the other hand accuse them of basic ignorance of ecology, adaptation and genetics. Who to believe has that basic understanding? A two year backyard beekeeper?


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

That neighbour, 1/2 mile away which you do not know has bees, allowing his hives to simply become overwhelmed by mites... to simply die off as part of his TF breeding philosophy... and I can't figure out why of all my yards showing controlled mite counts, I have this one yard showing a sudden spike in counts. 
Innocent enough. After a breif coffee shop chat asking for advice on how to prevent "robbing death" I realize he's there and why my counts spilled.

there are too many new Beekeepers who do not know enough to be able to achieve any type of TF breeding results. It's a process which involves eliminating the infection which will overcome the rest


----------



## pinkpantherbeekeeper (Feb 10, 2016)

shinbone said:


> IMHO, nothing. TF is a religion for many people. Thus, facts and evidence have nothing to do with the decision.
> 
> JMHO


No offense JW but you live in a land of a high number of anti vaccers when it comes to their children. If people are ignorant enought not to vaccinate their children, no amount of convincing will change treating beehives.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

beemandan said:


> Varroa is an exotic parasite. There is absolutely no evidence that Apis mellifera interacted with this parasite before the early part of the twentieth century. There is an unscientific belief in some circles that our bees have mysteriously acquired the genetics to overcome this parasite yet that hasn't proven to be the case in over a hundred years. In the past forty years or so, thousands of dedicated entomologists and professional queen breeders have spent much of their careers examining the interaction of bees and mites and made countless selections and breeding combinations without finding a silver bullet.
> 
> Most, if not all, of those professionals recommend treating. You, on the other hand accuse them of basic ignorance of ecology, adaptation and genetics. Who to believe has that basic understanding? A two year backyard beekeeper?


Its not science to ignore bees that survive without treatment, and the existence of some mechanisms of resistance. Its blinders.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

lharder said:


> Its not science to ignore bees that survive without treatment, and the existence of some mechanisms of resistance. Its blinders.


No one, literally no one, is ignoring bees that have the potential to survive without treatment. Least of all the professionals, both researchers and professional beekeepers. 
It seems you have gotten way ahead of yourself with these comments. How is it that your background qualifies you to take such a high road time and again?


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

How did this



lharder said:


> Its not science to ignore bees that survive without treatment, and the existence of some mechanisms of resistance. Its blinders.


evolve from this



lharder said:


> their basic ignorance of ecology, adaptation and genetics?


If you believe the professionals are ignoring any avenue.....then you are the one wearing blinders. 
No need to reply. I, for one, won't be reading it.


----------



## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

One of the reasons I come here less & less.
Lots of bad advice, lots of crazy folk.
This treatment free religion has gotten out of hand.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

scorpionmain said:


> One of the reasons I come here less & less.
> Lots of bad advice, lots of crazy folk.
> This treatment free religion has gotten out of hand.


Is the bad advice because there are so many new beekeepers? I'm wondering if the newbies come here, and the more experienced folk don't really need this for anything. So then it becomes almost like the blind leading the blind, which is too bad. We need the experienced beeks on here to give advice.

My wish would be that the more experienced beekeepers would stay above the fray and just stick to dispensing wisdom. Just scroll over the posts that are silly. Beekeeping is not easy.


----------



## ilikebs (Jan 3, 2013)

I have been keeping bees since 1983. Those were the good ole days of beekeeping. Catch a swarm put them in two hive bodies, start adding supers in a few weeks and come back in September and get your 200 -230 ponds of honey. Now you work you butt off for 100 lbs of honey.
we currently have 100 hives and we do no mite treatment at all. I am not against it any what so ever but here is my situation. Here are our losses for the last few years. 2012 11%, 2013 9%, 2014 13%, 2015 12%, 2016 8%. I can blame myself for some of theses losses each year. Things like was sure a hive was queenless but hoped they would produce a late season queen and they didn't. Knowing a hive was low on stores going into winter but didn't have time (or take time) to do anything about it..... However when I look at these losses compared to the national average I think things are ok so I always decide not to treat. As I mentioned I am certainly not against treating. Fact is I own a machine shop and I made several of the acid vaporizers. I have just never used them. What would you do, treat or not, What treatment would you use?


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

How do I get newbee beekeepers to treat their bees? I don't, but I do point them toward sources of treatment free queens and help them get those queens into their hives. I tell them the only way their bees will be alive in a year is if they get TF genetics. Any beekeeper that starts with treated bees and then tries to maintain them sans treatments without making any changes is inviting disaster. Treated bees simply do not have the genetics to survive. Any newbee reading this, please feel free to contact me, I'll tell you in a heartbeat to treat your treated bees or they will die.

Why am I a treatment free beekeeper? Because I put the time and effort into identifying bees with the genetics to survive without treatments. The only way I know to skip this effort is to get started with bees from someone who has already done the work. There are 4 beekeepers in this area with treatment free bees from my stock. They do not treat and do not need to treat.

This part is speculative, but based on a lot of study, time, and experience. I have reason to believe that about 25% of all colonies in the U.S. today have at least some level of mite resistance. Roughly 1/2 of one percent of the bees in the U.S. are highly mite resistant. Those are just numbers and not something that I have hard evidence to prove. This is significantly better than 30 years ago prior to arrival of varroa mites in the U.S. It is a long way off from being enough to get beekeepers off the treatment bandwagon.

It takes a lot more than just genetics to go treatment free. A beekeeper surrounded by treated bees will have a great deal of difficulty because of the barrage of mites coming in from the treated colonies. Conversely, a beekeeper doing a good job of treating can have his bees overwhelmed by the "treatment free" but not varroa resistant bees of a neighbor.

There is a beekeeper in this area who has lost a bunch of colonies this year. I don't know who and I don't know for sure where, but I know that it happened because there have been millions of wax moths flying in to see if my colonies are vulnerable. I am also seeing a much larger influx of hive beetles this year than ever in the past. This has been a "learning experience" for me. I am seeing first hand what happens when someone neglects their bees and they collapse in large numbers.

If we as beekeepers want to develop mite resistant bees, the only way I can see it working is if we have a national certification program for all breeder queens to be selected for resistance traits. This would require an unprecedented level of cooperation between beekeepers and queen breeders.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Fusion_power said:


> This part is speculative, but based on a lot of study, time, and experience. I have reason to believe that about 25% of all colonies in the U.S. today have at least some level of mite resistance. Roughly 1/2 of one percent of the bees in the U.S. are highly mite resistant. Those are just numbers and not something that I have hard evidence to prove. This is significantly better than 30 years ago prior to arrival of varroa mites in the U.S. It is a long way off from being enough to get beekeepers off the treatment bandwagon.


 Your numbers may not be far off...in my opinion.  I actually believe that the number expressing some resistance to mites is significantly higher than 25%. I think that the last forty years of careful selection by interested parties and professionals has gone a long way toward making the most of the existing genetics. On the flip side, the mite vectored diseases have become a larger problem.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Beekeeping is not easy.


Is it hard?


----------



## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> ....
> 
> If we as beekeepers want to develop mite resistant bees, the only way I can see it working is if we have a national certification program for all breeder queens to be selected for resistance traits. This would require an *unprecedented level of cooperation between beekeepers and queen breeders.*


Spot on. And ever practical Mr. Randy Oliver puts it as "not enough demand from beekeepers for better (genetics) queens". On a side note, I wish TreatmentFree queen breeders get together into a more formal "association" like Russian Queen Breeders, create test methodologies, assays, do more formal documentation and fulfil backyard queen demand.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> Is it hard?


I think people can make it so. Personally, it's been one of the easiest, most enjoyable hobbies I've taken up to date, and the one I'm most drawn to. Understanding bees, bee behavior, that's a whole other matter, and I believe someone could spend a lifetime on the study and not have a complete understanding of all the dynamics involved.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Is it hard?


To do it well, I think so. You're fighting 3 main things I can think of: swarm impulse, diseases/vectors, and available flow. I worked my butt off this spring, every week in the hives to make sure they didn't swarm, which they didn't. However, the rains and chilly weather washed away the dandelion season. Then came the drought, and the goldenrod is a total disaster and my hives are running on empty. Then feeding during dearth and whose bees are whose out there, crowding the feeders. Winter prep to give them the best defense against the long cold winter to survive until next spring, and then we do it all over again. Discouragement can be a factor when things don't always go as planned. And then there's the cost, let's not even get into that one. So I'd say in my opinion, it ain't easy.

P.S. Maybe now isn't the best time to give an opinion on this...


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

This photo is of a comb from one of my highly mite resistant colonies. It is typical with lots of cells of pollen and fresh nectar interspersed with sealed brood cells. This was the "outside" brood comb, the next comb was pollen and honey. This would not qualify as a good brood pattern for most commercial beekeepers, but it is typical of my bees during mid summer. It was taken during a mild nectar flow with abundant pollen coming in.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Nordak said:


> I think people can make it so. Personally, it's been one of the easiest, most enjoyable hobbies I've taken up to date, and the one I'm most drawn to. Understanding bees, bee behavior, that's a whole other matter, and I believe someone could spend a lifetime on the study and not have a complete understanding of all the dynamics involved.


Agreed.



NewbeeInNH said:


> To do it well, I think so. You're fighting 3 main things I can think of: swarm impulse, diseases/vectors, and available flow. I worked my butt off this spring, every week in the hives to make sure they didn't swarm, which they didn't. However, the rains and chilly weather washed away the dandelion season. Then came the drought, and the goldenrod is a total disaster and my hives are running on empty. Then feeding during dearth and whose bees are whose out there, crowding the feeders. Winter prep to give them the best defense against the long cold winter to survive until next spring, and then we do it all over again. Discouragement can be a factor when things don't always go as planned. And then there's the cost, let's not even get into that one. So I'd say in my opinion, it ain't easy.
> 
> P.S. Maybe now isn't the best time to give an opinion on this...


There's certainly factors and obviously location plays a huge role. I don't know what keeping bees in NH is like, but I can tell you if you follow basic best practices here among this mono-crop, neonic laced desert I live in... you can do pretty well. Swarm prevention has been my biggest challenge so far, but as best I can tell, I lost zero swarms this year. A couple close calls, but they responded to management. And I didn't make outright splits, but took brood as needed to make mating nucs. Over tripled colony count, didn't feed a drop until about two weeks ago, and only then to late-made mating nucs that are building up from two frames in late July to 5/5 (deeps) now. 

The recipe for all of this is pretty simple. Low mite counts or bees that tolerate higher counts (however you achieve that be it by treating or breeding or dumb luck) and ample food for winter.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Your situation is not that different than mine this year, I got 5 nuc splits plus made 2 nucs from new Russian queens, and just started feeding yesterday, but my outlook is not as rosy as yours, so maybe it's a temperament thing.  Or maybe the 75% humidity levels and cloud cover for the past 24 hours.

But I was hoping to get many more foundationless frames built out this summer and that didn't happen. Plus, it's like farming, if the weather doesn't cooperate, you're stuck. It may be fun to farm when everything is sunshine and daffodils, but there are seasons when you're volunteering your time or worse.

So BLEH.


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> This photo is of a comb from one of my highly mite resistant colonies. It is typical with lots of cells of pollen and fresh nectar interspersed with sealed brood cells. This was the "outside" brood comb, the next comb was pollen and honey. This would not qualify as a good brood pattern for most commercial beekeepers, but it is typical of my bees during mid summer. It was taken during a mild nectar flow with abundant pollen coming in.


Dar, is there a wire right across the middle?


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Dar, is there a wire right across the middle?


 Yes, I put 3 wires on each of the frames. The middle wire is highly visible and if you look close, the bottom wire is also marked by a few missing brood cells. After 2 or 3 generations of brood rearing, the queen will lay in most of them.


----------



## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

Why did I start treating? I guess it was when I started to see bees crawling in the grass in front of the hives with deformed wings that did it for me. These mites are obviously doing a number on the bees and considering that the two species have been together in North America for what only 30 years? - its seems scant time for bees to have developed countermeasures such as altered life cycle times, hygienic behaviors (grooming) etc to live in balance with them. Now maybe treating is lengthening out that developmental phase by removing the selective pressure on bees - I don't know - but it does seem to ease that transition for beekeepers and keep losses more reasonable than without. I'm a hobbyist so losing hives is disappointing but not going to stop putting food on the table, I'm sure I would have a different view point if I was in it commercially.

Ultimately I am sure we all want to be TF and hopefully we get there one day. No doubt something else will come along (Asian Hornet) then that we will have to deal with.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> There's certainly factors and obviously location plays a huge role. I don't know what keeping bees in NH is like, but I can tell you if you follow basic best practices here among this mono-crop, neonic laced desert I live in... you can do pretty well. Swarm prevention has been my biggest challenge so far, but as best I can tell, I lost zero swarms this year. A couple close calls, but they responded to management. And I didn't make outright splits, but took brood as needed to make mating nucs. Over tripled colony count, didn't feed a drop until about two weeks ago, and only then to late-made mating nucs that are building up from two frames in late July to 5/5 (deeps) now.


:thumbsup:


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> No one, literally no one, is ignoring bees that have the potential to survive without treatment. Least of all the professionals, both researchers and professional beekeepers.
> It seems you have gotten way ahead of yourself with these comments. How is it that your background qualifies you to take such a high road time and again?


I've made this point before, qualifications pale before the logic of an argument. But since you asked. I have a Masters of Pest Management from Simon Fraser University, British Columbia. B. Sc. at University of British Columbia. Areas of concentration, insect and plant ecology, evolution, some mathematical modeling and these were the ideas I explored during my masters especially impacts of imported pests. So yes been around lots of grad students, profs. They are just people, not demigods of knowledge.


----------



## kg7 (Jun 28, 2016)

First year I decided to treat with OAV because I read and researched


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

lharder said:


> I've made this point before, qualifications pale before the logic of an argument. But since you asked. I have a Masters of Pest Management from Simon Fraser University, British Columbia. B. Sc. at University of British Columbia. Areas of concentration, insect and plant ecology, evolution, some mathematical modeling and these were the ideas I explored during my masters especially impacts of imported pests. So yes been around lots of grad students, profs. They are just people, not demigods of knowledge.


Ahh, now it's clear. 
This logic you speak of seems to be lacking the fact based data to base it on.
I've long felt that many of the post were stretching things a bit. Making big leaps.

Thanks for the heads up regarding academic professionals in the field.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Arnie said:


> squarepeg, Harley , David, Nordak,
> Have you been able to send queens to other areas of the country to test if they can survive TF in those places?
> 
> There is one beek I know here who has some hives that have survived in his 'neglected' yard. I have one daughter queen from him and will raise a couple from her next year. They are nice bees, gentle , don't swarm.... but also don't produce much surplus. I really like them, except for the 'lazy' attitude they have toward getting ME some honey.
> ...


Nope never sold a queen, I don't even graft to time them up, my method of expansion is as follows. When want more colonies, I move my oldest queen to a small split and once the colony has capped a bunch of emergency cells I then further bust the hive up into how ever many cells I can divy up. I really have no interest in seeing if my bees will survive anywhere else, just like I'm not really interested in seeing if bees from outside this area will survive here


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Harley, you are not that advantuous person like me. I like to
explore all areas when possible. And beekeeping is such a great medium for
my adventure. You need to spread the bee wealth a little somehow. Life is just too short for me!


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I think Harley and Beepro should exchange queens!


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> I think Harley and Beepro should exchange queens!


I coukd send him the 2 you sent me, and I don't want his I don't have a gadget to keep them alive


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

beepro said:


> Harley, you are not that advantuous person like me. I like to
> explore all areas when possible. And beekeeping is such a great medium for
> my adventure. You need to spread the bee wealth a little somehow. Life is just too short for me!


If it ain't broke why fix it? Why spend money on fancy queens from far away, when my mongrel mutts suit me just fine


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

If you are satisfied, then there is no more to be said. I'm not satisfied with mine. I want bees that can produce more honey and swarm less. I think the genetics are there and a few crosses should prove it.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> If you are satisfied, then there is no more to be said. I'm not satisfied with mine. I want bees that can produce more honey and swarm less. I think the genetics are there and a few crosses should prove it.


Is it possible you could sacrifice some resistance in order to obtain the end result you're looking for? I'm curious about this and the means to which you plan to acquire the results, past the genetic material you chose, more nuts and bolts type info. Not quite feasible for me at this point, just gathering info for the future. If you don't want to give trade secrets away, I get that too.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> I think Harley and Beepro should exchange queens!


I'm picky!
I only use the honey producing commercial queens.
Many will not like what I have here. Only the yellow bees I
will keep. The darker canis drones saturated queens I will throw
them away after the graft. All daughter queens are open mated with the local carnis
drones with a few Italians survivor drones mixed in. Harley will not like my 
Cordovan queens either. Maybe one day there is a need to mutt the lines
out when too much inbreeding is at stake there. Besides, there are too many
yellow bees out there to play with. I'm in the process to acquire some of them.
The Buckfast breeder queens came to mind. Wonder what the workers will be like when dealing
with the mites here after crossing with the Cordovan drones. Of course, they have to
survive our mild winter without any oav/oac application first. My hives are ever on experiment
all the time through out the 4 seasons. Some will be tf to compare to the oav hives. It is all an experiment without
completely destroying the local mite population in the hives. They are too valuable in my little gadget invention and trial testing. Need to have a control group somehow to measure the resistant outcome or none at all. I'm in a little bee world growing my local yellow bees going against the carnis (gray/jet black) trend. Don't mind me!


Mine, what a small head:


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you read between the lines...honey...commercial queens...
local survivor drones....experiment...4 seasons...and resistant outcome...
local yellow bees.

Yes, somehow you have to give in order to take or improved on something
for the future. Not an easy task and will take lots of time and know how to
get it done....somehow. Hope we all are on the right track!


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Is it possible you could sacrifice some resistance in order to obtain the end result you're looking for? I'm curious about this and the means to which you plan to acquire the results, past the genetic material you chose, more nuts and bolts type info. Not quite feasible for me at this point, just gathering info for the future. If you don't want to give trade secrets away, I get that too.


 There is no room to sacrifice resistance traits. The bees I have have resistance as good as anything out there today, but it is just barely enough. Any loss of resistance would IMO result in bees that could not survive mites on their own.

There are no secrets, I got Buckfast queens from Ferguson and I'm hoping to reduce the swarming impulse while retaining mite resistance. I am starting by mating Buckfast queens to drones from my bees.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, the commercial Cordovan queens already had some vsh traits built in.
So crossing them to the Buckfast drones from Ferguson will make a good combination.
Need to further evaluate the daughter queens for resistant traits before I can give a definite answer.
Going ahead on that direction to see what I will have in a few seasons.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> There is no room to sacrifice resistance traits.


Sorry, the question may not have been clear. That's what I was getting at, your statement. How do you plan to implement your strategy to avoid that? How do you strike the balance? Those were the nuts and bolts of the plan I was referring to. If you don't mind, I'd like to talk to you sometime about it through PM. Thanks.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> ...Most members are 1st or 2nd year newbees....So, what actually changes peoples minds about Varroa? What evidence actually is convincing ?


Reality will help out in their third year. Just wish them good luck, give them your phone number in case they need help in the near future. And don't forget to recommend them to read Bush's website on natural beekeeping.  There is no better cure than reality.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> If you are satisfied, then there is no more to be said. I'm not satisfied with mine. I want bees that can produce more honey and swarm less. I think the genetics are there and a few crosses should prove it.


Believe it or not out of 20 colonies I only had 2 swarm, on me and both were after main harvest on a secondary flow we had one of which swarmed itself almost to death but they were in a pretty short TBH the others respond very well to swarm management albeit sometimes agressive swarm management like the one I knocked down all the cells because queen was still present, dumped empties all over the brood nest randomly then shook the queen and all the bees right in their own entrance, they all went back in and went to work fixing my "mess" and never left on me


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> What actually works to convince Newbees to treat mites ?


Nothing, if they watch their treated hive die and know about all those losses beekeepers have who treat and who are desperate. 
i talk with some every day.

And now you will claim I was a newbie who did the treating wrong. But it was my bee teacher`s work after 30 years as a beekeeper who treats. He did it for me.

I´m at home in the tf forum. After a real hard time as a prospect here I feel finally accepted.
Why am I posting here? :scratch: ignore me.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> ...know about all those losses beekeepers have who treat ...


Less than 2 % average each winter get lost. What's the problem with it?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

"Treating" is a very broad brush: knowledgeable, timely and effective treating has a whole different result than most of the claims of having "treated and still lost their bees". I see a lot of spin rather than comprehensive fact behind the claims of people who are idealistically opposed to a concept.

The emotional appeal is tantalizing to many of the new comers and not surprising in view of the media exposure that attracted them. No question that idealism is powerful but it is so often blinding as a side effect. Critical thinking should get a lot more emphasis in our so called education systems.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

"Treating" is a very broad brush: knowledgeable, timely and effective treating has a whole different result than most of the claims of having "treated and still lost their bees". I see a lot of spin rather than comprehensive fact behind the claims of people who are idealistically opposed to a concept.

The emotional appeal is tantalizing to many of the new comers and not surprising in view of the media exposure that attracted them. No question that idealism is powerful but it is so often blinding as a side effect. Critical thinking should get a lot more emphasis in our so called education systems.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> Ahh, now it's clear.
> This logic you speak of seems to be lacking the fact based data to base it on.
> I've long felt that many of the post were stretching things a bit. Making big leaps.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up regarding academic professionals in the field.


One learns general principles about how things work, then applies them to the specific. Things like adaptation and selection pressure are fairly well understood. With bees a person who understood this principle was Daniel Weaver. He has a talk on the history of it on youtube if you care to watch it. The question is, were the traits there to begin with, and did he have enough hives to start out with when he started his selection process. It was tough sledding because he did it probably too early, and everyone told him it would fail. When I listen to his talk, he has a scientific viewpoint that I can appreciate. He took what is generally known and applied it to bees. 

Another well known principle shown by countless case studies with huge economic impacts are the hazards associated with the movement of biological material. So if one indulges in this, then s/he is ignoring a mountain of evidence. Of course in every agricultural field some genius thinks it doesn't apply to him (or in this forum bees) and some new disease is moved around. Not a scientific view point.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

crofter said:


> "Treating" is a very broad brush: knowledgeable, timely and effective treating has a whole different result than most of the claims of having "treated and still lost their bees". I see a lot of spin rather than comprehensive fact behind the claims of people who are idealistically opposed to a concept.


This is so true. So many TF'ers assert TF is obviously the only way to go because they treated their hives _exactly_ as the instructions/their-mentor-with-100-years-of-experience/their-commercial-beekeeping-brother-in-law/etc. said to, but they still lost their hives.

Mite treatments is powerful stuff. Regardless of whether it is formic acid, oxalic acid, thymol, etc., it takes experience to know how and when and how much to apply the stuff to kill a significant number of mites without harming the bees. Those who tried it once and then gave up due to bad results, clearly screwed up and never followed up to figure out what they did wrong.

How many TF beekeepers would there be if the standard was to give up if the hive died the first time you tried it?


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Since everyone says would you not treat your kids, I say I don't want anything that requires Chem gloves, goggles or a respirator in any combination in my kids bedroom


----------



## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> There is no room to sacrifice resistance traits. The bees I have have resistance as good as anything out there today, but it is just barely enough. Any loss of resistance would IMO result in bees that could not survive mites on their own.
> 
> There are no secrets, I got Buckfast queens from Ferguson and I'm hoping to reduce the swarming impulse while retaining mite resistance. I am starting by mating Buckfast queens to drones from my bees.


Hi
Just wondering if you've had enough time with the Ferguson buckfast to have formed an opinion about them? I've considered getting a couple but keep putting it off waiting to hear more about what people are experiencing with them. I'd expect them to combine nicely with most resistant stock as the colonies from which vsh was originally derived comes from a mixed ancestry of buckfast and carniolans. But I also havent used a "true buckfast" in decades so not sure what to expect. My primary complaint with them back in the late 80's/early 90's was that crosses tended to be awful grumpy. Have you seen that unfriendly behavior as a predominate outcome crossing with your stock?


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Less than 2 % average each winter get lost. What's the problem with it?


Those sound like "survivors" to me, Bernhard! 



Harley Craig said:


> Chem gloves, goggles or a respirator in any combination in my kids bedroom


What about a kid with sleep apnea, chronic dry eyes, and extreme eczema on their hands?


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Harley Craig said:


> Since everyone says would you not treat your kids, I say I don't want anything that requires Chem gloves, goggles or a respirator in any combination in my kids bedroom


You might look at it differently if your child had a very serious life threatening illness, such as cancer. Chemo, radiation ... nasty stuff that requires more caution and safety protocol than gloves and goggles. 

I'm sure you would do whatever was necessary to treat the root cause of the illness and save your child. Some beeks may have a similar outlook on keeping their bees alive. I know it's apples and oranges, keeping humans healthy and keeping healthy bees. But I think you get my drift. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it mirrors the determination seen with TF beekeepers. Just a different path taken to strive for success.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Mike Gillmore said:


> You might look at it differently if your child had a very serious life threatening illness, such as cancer. Chemo, radiation ... nasty stuff that requires more caution and safety protocol than gloves and goggles.
> 
> I'm sure you would do whatever was necessary to treat the root cause of the illness and save your child. Some beeks may have a similar outlook on keeping their bees alive. I know it's apples and oranges, keeping humans healthy and keeping healthy bees. But I think you get my drift. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it mirrors the determination seen with TF beekeepers. Just a different path taken to strive for success.


Actually My daughter has been on a low dose chemo since she was 18 Mos old, she's now 4 I still wouldn't pump chemicals in her bedroom that require ppe


----------



## howlin (May 15, 2016)

hi,
this entire thread is moot due to the research of monsanto/bayer. wait until they make a dominant gene that causes bees to only collect gmo pollen.

h.


----------



## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Harley. I sure don't want to make light of your families health issues, I understand completely. But you actually reinforced my point. You are doing what you need to do to preserve your daughters health. You are using a strong treatment method to keep her illness in check. 

Some beekeepers choose the same route with their bees, use whatever treatment works to keep the bees alive and bypass the less reliable holistic healing route. We're probably having two different conversations here, so I'll let it go at that.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Because treating causes genetic harm, not only to one's own bees, but to others as well, a more accurate analogy is that if you wanted a loved one to live, someone else had to die. If this was apparent, different ethical decisions would be made by some.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Harley. I sure don't want to make light of your families health issues, I understand completely. But you actually reinforced my point. You are doing what you need to do to preserve your daughters health. You are using a strong treatment method to keep her illness in check.
> 
> Some beekeepers choose the same route with their bees, use whatever treatment works to keep the bees alive and bypass the less reliable holistic healing route. We're probably having two different conversations here, so I'll let it go at that.


No I proved my point, that bees are not my children. And they shoukd never be cosiderded as such


----------



## Cyberman (Aug 23, 2016)

My wake-up call!
I grew up around beehives. My grandfather and father were beekeepers. I had 20 to 30 hives for many years then moved to Arizona and got out of beekeeping for 23 years. A couple years ago I moved to the country in South Carolina and started back up again. When I left beekeeping in the 80's we didn't have mites. I started up again as "all natural". I paid a lot of money to get started back up with 3 hives of very nice Italians. They all died over the winter and I blamed hive beetles, wax moths, etc. I'm in South Carolina so our winters are not severe. I didn't realize that the mites had weakened them enough that the hive beetles and wax moths were able to move in and finish them off. All I saw was the evidence of wax moths at the end and hive beetles everywhere.
I would say that many of the new beekeepers that think the hive beetles or wax moths got their hives were actually victims of mites first and didn't know it. I learned from my mistakes. I have MH bees now and I still treat them with Oxalic Acid. I don't think the hive beetles like it either. My hives are staying strong now. Things have changed since the 80's and I guess beekeeping is a continuous learning experience. I am very grateful for our local bee club (Y.C.B.A) and all their help.
I hope others can learn from my mistakes. I did!


----------



## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

Cyberman--What are MH Bees? 
Thanks
Mary


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Minnesota hygienic.


----------



## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

Thanks
Mary


----------



## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> Believe it or not out of 20 colonies I only had 2 swarm, on me and both were after main harvest on a secondary flow we had one of which swarmed itself almost to death but they were in a pretty short TBH the others respond very well to swarm management albeit sometimes agressive swarm management like the one I knocked down all the cells because queen was still present, dumped empties all over the brood nest randomly then shook the queen and all the bees right in their own entrance, they all went back in and went to work fixing my "mess" and never left on me


How often do you check for queen cells?


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

blamb61 said:


> How often do you check for queen cells?


During peak swarm season apx every 5-7 days on my strong ones


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

I say survival of the fittest - if they make it - they get split in the spring. Been working for me now for 9 years. Threw out all the chemicals. But it cost me the first year - went from 100 to 20 overnight. And that's what I built back from.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Sak, that is the rebuilt after the crash situation. 
Congrats on your success. I had many crashes but not that many
compare to yours. Sure I will let them crash again once the hive number is
high enough. Give it another year to decide the total tf route.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Beepro - are you asking me what was the rebuild after the crash? if so I'm running 300 hives right now - and as far as give them another year? Its been 9 so far. I'm not saying I would not treat if necessary - it just haven't been.


----------



## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

sakhoney said:


> I say survival of the fittest - if they make it - they get split in the spring. Been working for me now for 9 years. Threw out all the chemicals. But it cost me the first year - went from 100 to 20 overnight. And that's what I built back from.


You got b*lls  . I am getting discouraged losing 2 out of 5. Congratulations.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

All it took was for me to do some mite counts the first year in the late summer after seeing a lot of crawling bees in the yard. Once you see them and can measure them (mites) you start thinking "do it" on the mite treatments especially when you see a few poor DWV bees struggling to waddle around. It's just easier to treat them than to get more bees. (for me) 
It's nice seeing healthy strong looking bees in September.


----------



## McBain (Aug 23, 2016)

Most people who want to be 'natural' will only last a short time without treatment *because* they have standard European queens and bees. Standard European hives are great for their honey production and temperament but when it comes to anything else they are quite useless compared to other varieties. Standard European hives offer no defense against hive beetles, wax moths, varroa mites and other pests. Using the standard European bee, keepers usually need to use chemicals just to keep the hives alive. 

The chemicals come with their own set of problems. If they release too much you can lose the hive, too little and there is no effect on the mites. 

One thing I always think is comical is that after using the chemicals, everyone can't figure out why their queens are not outputting like they should be and need to be replaced every year... The queen is not exempt from the treatment. It damages all the bees but the queen is the only one that lives long enough for that to be noticed. Thus, the queen gets replaced more often when you treat. Sometimes the chemicals simply do not work because of their overuse. 

*If you really want to be a natural beekeeper, you must fight pests with the variety of bee you raise.* 

As a test I put a hive of my Russian Black bees next to a standard European hive and mite checked them last year during the fall. The untreated standard European hive had a mite count of 100 in a 24 hour span while the Russian Black bees had 1 mite during the first 24 hour period. I continued doing counts for a week and a half and discovered the European hive ranged between 85 - 120 mites per 24 hour period while the Russian Black bees ranged between 0 - 3 during that same time. 

Here in Arizona, my favorite variety of bee to keep are AHB (obviously not anywhere near people of course) and here is why they are my favorite. 

I personally believe the standard European bee many people keep would not survive very long if unattended by a beekeeper. If you keep European bees, think of all the problems you have had with them in this past year. Most likely you dealt with mites and wax moths last fall and perhaps a mouse in the spring. If you have small hive beetles in your area you may have been affected by them as well. If you've got a bunch of hives you most likely have had queens stop laying for no reason. You've probably had American Foulbrood in your European hives. 

The Africanized bees are aggressive and tend to bee swarmy, but they are highly productive and build massive colonies very fast. Their honey collection is on par with any European hive you have got and I have never had a pest problem in any of my Africanized hives. 

The Russian Black bee is not as productive as the European bee but they are consistent and clean. They are not swarmy like the AHB but they do not produce as much honey per year.

I'm not saying that the Russian Black bee, AHB or feral bees are 100% perfect but what I am saying is, I experience none of the common problems with my AHB or Black bee varieties. All the problems I experience come from my European hives in those same yards. 

Just my experience and thoughts.

The key to fighting mites in my opinion?

1) Capture a native hive in your area and raise queens from them to use in your other hives. 

2) Purchase queens that are mite resistant (such as the Black Bee).


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Mclain - Unless you purchase queens on a regular basis, how do you feel the quality of the hybrid queens in your yard are?


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

McBain said:


> Standard European hives offer no defense against hive beetles, wax moths, and other pests.


Huh?


----------



## McBain (Aug 23, 2016)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Mclain - Unless you purchase queens on a regular basis, how do you feel the quality of the hybrid queens in your yard are?


The AHB queens tend to be the most productive queen over all, according to what I have observed in my yards. They tend to fill every last cell in their brood nest and keep them all full. If you can get past the aggressive behavior (and keep them far away from people) the AHB is a great variety to have. If you keep some, be careful to continuously add boxes as they grow or the bees will swarm. If you catch a hive preparing to swarm just take on half of the bees away and they will think they did swarm and you made an easy split. 

The Russian queens tend to be slower building up hive population in general but they are a consistent variety that needs little attention. I have never had such a hive swarm on me. 

I do not purchase queens regularly and I believe that is because I do not use chemicals in my hives. My queens live anywhere from 3 - 5 years and perform wonderfully. 

I hope this answers your question.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

What actually works to convince Newbees to treat mites ?

I've found a 45 or 38 pointed at their favorite dog works best......


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

(deleted in the spirit of self moderation.)


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

snl said:


> I present the analogy that a mite on a bee is equivalent to a large cat on a human sucking out blood and passing viruses during the exchange.
> Sometimes it works other times....


A cat is too comfortable for the analogy. I suggest leeches, deer ticks or bedbugs to take home.

Flea collar on my dog in my house but no OA in my hive because it is un-natural?

A time for all seasons.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Treat or TF is not a battle.

Watching a wild turkey flock walk by. 3/4 will be dead next spring, but a flock will be here next fall.

I would not raise a flock of of wild turkeys with a plan of selling them for Thanksgiving.

Would not buy farm turkey chicks and release them with the plan of overwintering. It is a lot more probable I will have farm turkeys to work with then wild. 

The choice is what do you have for stock and what do you want for a product. 
Hat's off to those who balance the two. Riding the middle ground sucks.


----------



## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Saltybee said:


> Flea collar on my dog in my house but no OA in my hive because it is un-natural?


You're just making stuff up.. right? 

For me the most upsetting thing is pics or video of DWV bees.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

DWV a little is fine with me. Sorry for those unlucky ones.
The mites are here to stay no matter how many times you treat as they are out
there constantly. The way I do it is to find the most resistant hives while keeping the mites
at a minimum level only oav when needed to. Comes Spring time we will see which queen is the winner of them all.
Some will expand using the rebuilt after the crash hives. This way I can choose my breeders without crashing the
hives entirely. We don't have to use the AHB genetics if you can help it because of their aggressiveness and hard to requeen with the EHB. Though use what you have locally as we cannot change them all. If you cannot beat them then you have to join them!


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Saltybee, not sure I could grasp your analogy, but as an aside, we have many wild turkey flocks walking around now, I love to see them. Turkeys were hunted out of the state, but in the 70s(?) a fish & game guy started them back up with a few birds here and there around the state, and the populations grew until they appear to be very healthy today.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Over here there is a small house that they started the
turkey flock every summer. Then in the Autumn they would butcher them all except
a few to repopulate the flock next Spring. Every year they don't have to buy meats around
Thanksgiving time and will repeat this method every year. We have parks and business center
full of these wild turkeys. Somehow they are protected specie I think as nobody will bother them roaming around.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

For starters farm turkeys are a horrible analogy, they can't even breed on their own to make more ya gotta squeeze em and suck semen into a jar with a hose and artifically inseminate. Letting bees go feral would be more like letting pink pigs go feral, after a few generations they aren't pink anymore and go back to the wild versions of their selves


----------



## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

I have heritage Bourbon Red Turkeys, they are real cool birds, all heritage turkeys breed on their own. 
it's only the whites and brown commercial that need a helping hand.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Ahh, David. They have the blonde turkey too.
I saw them at work. They are the wild type roaming free. Nobody
keeps them. Will snap some pics next time. Those will breed on their own as I saw
the little chicks flying close to the ground.


----------



## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

my silly birds
they are getting big
3 are for turkey day
we have wild turkeys living here too
wish I could catch a few
Had Blue Slate and Narragansett last year
and midget whites they are tasty turkeys!
should say they are open range, organic feed
right now they are all over the sunflowers that droop over.
yummy yummy


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> So, what actually changes peoples minds about Varroa? What evidence actually is convincing ?


Nothing. The need to believe in miracles and follow charismatic speakers is far too big.

When lecturing beekeeping I always strongly point out to listeners: "Don´t follow me, don´t become a TF beekeeper. This is something only for an experienced beekeeper and even then strong ideological reasons are needed."
Maybe because of this, I have only couple followers. And there is one beekeeper with longer TF history than me (TF since 2001).


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Humm, maybe like the bees you can get the wild hybrids
with your brown domesticated turkeys. I like to graft the commercial daughters 
to mate with the local carnis drones asap.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

DavidZ said:


> I have heritage Bourbon Red Turkeys, they are real cool birds, all heritage turkeys breed on their own.
> it's only the whites and brown commercial that need a helping hand.


"Heritage" to me sounds like "haven't been bred to be so large as to not be able to mate successfully". 

Many chicken hens have had the broodiness instinct (ability to sit on eggs and hatch them) bred out of them so they can focus more on being egg layers.

If we can breed for these characteristics, you'd think there might be some truth to being able to breed bees for mite resistance, hence propagating "survivor stock".


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Saltybee, not sure I could grasp your analogy,


It is a argument to delay all natural until you can get a decent bee to try.

All natural is often a moral choice with newbies. Pointing out all natural with an un natural bee is the equivalent of taking a turkey that no longer can breed, setting it loose and saying: "Go forth and select".
Is going all natural without starting with as natural a bee as you can get really moral? A lot of bees died and a lot of money spent, to make the progress made to date.

That is a different motivation than being willing to take the losses necessary to develop as good a local bee as you can. Starting from scratch rather than from years of other's efforts is a choice I made, a choice I regret.

Like a wild turkey, natural is a high mortality rate even with the most feral bee. If a "natural bee" threw three swarms a year and survived 3 years only 1 of nine could survive to maintain a stable population. While I would love to have a truly TF bee, I really do not want a "natural" bee.


----------



## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

do some reading on heritage turkeys since you don't understand.




NewbeeInNH said:


> "Heritage" to me sounds like "haven't been bred to be so large as to not be able to mate successfully".


----------



## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

I find I can seldom convince people of anything once their mind is made up... This includes the newbie with one hive convinced he's going to select and breed for resistant stock or the old-timer returning to the queen breeding game dosing his hives with Maverik.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jwc, i assume you a referring to the newbees that are purchasing your nucs and already have their minds made up that they are going to be treatment free despite having no experience and perhaps very limited knowledge when it comes to beekeeping.

i can imagine the frustration you must feel after all of the hard work that you put into preparing those quality nucs for sale only to see them headed for a predictable and not so pretty outcome.

i assume you have explained to the newbees that all beekeeping is local, and that expectations and outcomes should be first and foremost driven by local considerations.

and i assume you have encouraged the newbees to seek out beekeepers in the local area who are keeping bees in the way that they are wanting to and having the successes that they are hoping to have, and if they can find such then consider purchasing their bees there instead, but if there are none such then they might seriously reconsider how they intend to go about it for themselves.

if so, i think you have done all that you can do and you can be at peace about it. you know what they say about a fool and his money....


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Juhani Lunden said:


> "Don´t follow me, don´t become a TF beekeeper. This is something only for an experienced beekeeper and even then strong ideological reasons are needed."


And yet, it's glaringly obvious that there are beekeepers with far less credentials as yourself having some success. How long does it take for one to be considered successful? 10 years? 20 years? How is experience measured?


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Nordak said:


> And yet, it's glaringly obvious that there are beekeepers with far less credentials as yourself having some success. How long does it take for one to be considered successful? 10 years? 20 years? How is experience measured?


If you get over 3 year mark and still hives are doing fine, I suppose something is better than average, either your bees or skills. I had my most serious setback 2014 after 6 TF years although I had had the opportunity to get some Primorski bees to start with.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Juhani Lunden said:


> If you get over 3 year mark and still hives are doing fine, I suppose something is better than average, either your bees or skills. I had my most serious setback after 6 TF years.


Thanks Juhani. I am going to remain vigilant, and know there will most likely be set backs at times. Right now though, I'm going to go pat myself on the back...


----------



## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

jwc, what would change your mind about something that you are convinced about? By exploring your answer, to your own question, you may just learn a thing or two about humanity, and yourself.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Nordak said:


> And yet, _it's glaringly obvious_ that there are beekeepers with far less credentials as yourself _having some success_. How long does it take for one to be considered successful? 10 years? 20 years? How is experience measured?


glaringly obvious, and some!

Run the odds for a beginner and see if it is something that stands on its own recommendations to be a relatively successful venture! I dont think it could be recommended unless a very high value is placed on the TF carrot. 

I spent a good part of an afternoon talking to a retired bee inspector for Northern Ontario and he was even less enthusiastic about a TF beginnner's success than Juhani Lunden was. His words; first winter, occasionally; second winter, rare; third winter, none that he knew of!

Now, five years in I think I would have a decent chance of keeping these bees alive treatment free in my area. Being isolated from other bees has been an asset but there are bees being moved into the area that will complicate that issue.

If a beginner is inclined to be a believer in methods that are a companion to the power of the "laying on of hands", then I think the odds are definitely not good for a happy experience. The media hype has attracted a lot of people that may be lacking some of the pragmatism so essential in culturing any species of livestock. The occasional success in mathematically relative terms does not support the glowing recommendation that beginners are often exposed to at speaking engagements. When an event is a recruitment opportunity....... well, buyer beware!


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

crofter said:


> glaringly obvious, and some!
> 
> Run the odds for a beginner and see if it is something that stands on its own recommendations to be a relatively successful venture! I dont think it could be recommended unless a very high value is placed on the TF carrot.
> 
> ...


Wise words, Crofter. My intent in posting was to juxtaposition the almost universal belief on this forum that TF beekeeping is not possible. As demonstrated by many on this forum, excluding my experience as I believe it's too early to verify anything absolute, there are not only successes, but bees that don't appear to be "suffering" or barely getting by as is the other common belief. I'm not here to promote. I'm here to give facts. I can't speak for others on their view of it.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I see it recommended to have at least a dozen or more hives to have the capacity to replace deadouts to have a reasonable go at being successful. Isolation seems to be a common denominator too. Small hives and swarminess seems to be an initial direction. Juhanni spoke at one time of having mite tolerance and probably needing years to increase honey production if I am not mistaken. That is not to say that such a venture is not a success in many ways. More knowledge can often be gained working on borders of existence than from living in the lap of artificial luxury far from natural.

I just think it borders on the criminal (hyperbole !) to see some of the expectations that the innocent (more!) are being indoctrinated with (more yet!).

If someone is flat neutrally informed of realistic expectations, relative ease of accomplishment etc., there is no foul. I do, however, detest a _drummer_! and that is no exaggeration.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Nordak said:


> almost universal belief on this forum that TF beekeeping is not possible.


I think there is less "belief" out there in the real world rather a lot of bad experience trying it. 

I also think, most people don't think it isn't possible but rather say, that it is not so easy as some others say it is. 

You can spend a lot of time, money and effort producing big piles of dead bees. Would be better spend in good beekeeping, leaving the search for the golden path of treatment free beekeeping to those, who do this systematically and with some sort of knowing what they are doing. I reckon this systematically approach is called a concept. Just saying.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

crofter said:


> I see it recommended to have at least a dozen or more hives to have the capacity to replace deadouts to have a reasonable go at being successful. Isolation seems to be a common denominator too. Small hives and swarminess seems to be an initial direction. Juhanni spoke at one time of having mite tolerance and probably needing years to increase honey production if I am not mistaken. That is not to say that such a venture is not a success in many ways. More knowledge can often be gained working on borders of existence than from living in the lap of artificial luxury far from natural.
> 
> I just think it borders on the criminal (hyperbole !) to see some of the expectations that the innocent (more!) are being indoctrinated with (more yet!).
> 
> If someone is flat neutrally informed of realistic expectations, relative ease of accomplishment etc., there is no foul. I do, however, detest a _drummer_! and that is no exaggeration.


I like it.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I think there is less "belief" out there in the real world rather a lot of bad experience trying it.
> 
> I also think, most people don't think it isn't possible but rather say, that it is not so easy as some others say it is.
> 
> You can spend a lot of time, money and effort producing big piles of dead bees. Would be better spend in good beekeeping, leaving the search for the golden path of treatment free beekeeping to those, who do this systematically and with some sort of knowing what they are doing. I reckon this systematically approach is called a concept. Just saying.


I tend to look at individual results, not lump sum the whole of experience into an overall result. From my own, I haven't seen what others have seen in regard to the piles of dead bees, the struggle for stability. I know very well it exists, though. Juhani's journal would give someone an idea about how hard it can be starting from scratch. It's amazingly detailed, and would be a wonderful read for someone in his scenario. I couldn't, or wouldn't, do what Juhani has done.
Like all things beekeeping, I am starting to come to the conclusion that location has more affect perhaps than anything on bees in regard to survivability and the varroa mite. Nothing is absolute, and I don't see why the argument exists in the first place. TF beeks that can't make it work won't be around long. Crofter's last post put it well.

I got a yard to mow. Thanks for the discussion.


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I stopped arguing about it. I've tested quite a few different stocks and a lot of the breeders around here say they don't treat their breeders but I've yet to see anything hold up well to our mite pressure here. I do think it's a combination of stressors though and the relative scant amount of forage this area provides during most of the year. I'm still testing for resistance here or even tolerance and we'll see how progresses but I believe it's just tougher here. I always take any claims of resistance with a grain of salt, even the so called 'tf' bees from So Cal didn't really hold up here, but again, I think it's a combination of forage as well. Some people believe their bees out breed the mites.... I just don't see that happening most years here with our forage. You're doing good if you can get the bees to fill two deeps and a medium for the most part. Some hives will get bigger for sure, but it just seems they produce more mites as well so I'm not sure where the point you can actually outbreed the mites is but you see people with 3 deeps and 6-7 supers filled with bees but I just don't see any of my queens able to do that as they couldn't fill a single super in typical years with stores.


----------



## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> a lot of the breeders around here say they don't treat their breeders...


If just breeders are left without treatments there is a problem. Resistance is far away...


----------



## Bryan4916 (Jun 5, 2012)

I have not used chemicals in my 5 years of beekeeping and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Nearly all my bees are either from swarms or cutouts. Old source hives have the highest value to me and is something I always seek. My winter losses have been 0 to 1 a year except my second year where I found a fault in my custom top cover design that created moisture issues which killed 3 hives. My summer losses are from non-returning queens, failed splits, merges, or some bone head move on my part. The only type of mite I worry about is the all mighty chigger which ate heavily from my ankles this year. Death to chiggers!!!

I started thinking that treating was some fear driven religion until I started mentoring. Wow, no wonder beginners are failing so much. It's bad enough they don't know what they are doing but to get sold such sub par bees/queens so close to the end of our short spring season is just a recipe for failure. If it wasn't diseases, it was a poor queen or maybe even varroa. Following the classes and dumping buckets of sugar didn't help matters though they didn't have much choice in the matter. To top it off, none of them have been taught how to winter small hives/nucs if they didn't reach the prescribed winterable size/weight. The queen providers for these nucs (all shipped in) should hold their heads in shame. The nuc makers who used bees from the California almond fields are not doing anyone any favors. One person who is going into winter in great shape picked up 3 nucs locally from a guy with a dozen hives that bred his own queens. Two others were thankfully able to pick up potentially good swarms. 

I didn't have a mentor and found what works for me and encourage others to do the same. Though, the right mentor can certainly help. My bees are in full shade because that's what I had. I'm still adjusting to managing a hive in full sun. Experimenting with the bees and bee equipment is a passion of mine and don't plan to ever stop. Besides, I want to be as ready as I can for the next big problem be it a large hive beetle, Asian hornet, another disease, or whatever. For me to do that, the current problem needs to be dealt with and not just doctored. Varroa will be just like tracheal mites at some point and I prefer it to be sooner than later. Old publications also claimed all your hives will die a horrible death if you don't treat for tracheal mites religiously. I'm not aware of anyone treating for them anymore. Conditions are changing and the industry isn't changing with it.

To answer the original question, it isn't your place to convince them. I tolerate the treating and incessant meetings and posts droning on about varroa while so many other topics go untouched. I don't have all the answers and neither does anyone else. I am one of the best beekeepers with 5 and 10 frame foundationless medium langstroth hives modified to match my current experimentation whim in a damp creek bed fully canopied by pecan trees in Northeast Oklahoma a few miles from a large river and with my surround foliage. Any advice or methods I share might not work anywhere else. I do believe the current taught cookie cutter method is broken and can't just be doctored over. My hives have provided my immediate family with 10 gallons of untreated honey from untreated hives with plenty to spare for friends and extended family. This year was especially good.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

There was a time when I had TF bees that stayed alive for many years. Was a teen aged bee haver.  
Had my bees and learned almost nothing about them because they took care of themselves. That was back in the good old days and the good old days are history. 
Point is that I'd maybe be the worst beekeeper ever if it were not for Varroa and SHB forcing me to keep em strong, well-fed, and healthy.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

aunt betty said:


> That was back in the good old days and the good old days are history.



speak for yourself, Several people around here continued to keep bees the way they did pre- varroa and that is who i learned from and sorta my style, so for them, the good ol days never really went away I heard of several ruff yrs when varroa first hit, but there are guys here who literally add supers in the spring and take them away at the end of summer and other than during swarm season, may only look at brood twice a yr. Not to mention with all the info now available at our finger tips and access to scientific studies, the price of honey and pollination, etc I bet many will look back at now and say.....these were the good ol days.


----------

