# Langstroth: Top Hive Entrances



## Beev

Well, bottom entrances do work. And have for a long time. And, I think people in general are just resistant to change. Having said that, my new starts will all have top entrances this year, and if I like them, they will all have them next year. As you said, it just seem to make sense.

And besides, equipment suppliers want to sell all they can. That's why they are in business.


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## Michael Bush

>I've been looking at Michael Bush's web page and really like the idea behind the top hive entrances. Why aren't more people doing beekeeping in this way? It just seems to make sense. 

It never crossed my mind until the skunks forced me to it. I never thought of all the advantages until I was doing it...

People need a reason to change.


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## Vance G

I started out with both top and bottom entrances because the bottom entrance would plug with dead bees over winter and the bees needed an escape if they happened to get a flying day. It has always worked well for me to have both. I never thought of not having one to fight skunks! I used more direct but labor intense means to deal with them. No bottom entrance might have been better. When the skunks find me, my bees may lose their bottom opening.


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## hilreal

The only issue I have had with top entrances is that it can be a little intimidating to the newbee when working the hive. You have all the returning foragers basically in your face looking for their missing top entrance. After a while you get used to dealing with it.


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## mgolden

Am concerned somewhat about entrance area/opening for incoming air. If one closes or removes the front bottom entrance, trust one has to open up the SBB. Any concerns about too much draft and cooling of brood????

Had some problems last year with fully open front bottom entrances and solid bottoms, as the bees chose to not draw out the foundation on bottom half of bottom frames.


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## nickermire

Thank you for the great discussion. I love soaking up whatever experience may help keep my bees safe, warm, healthy and happy! 
Hilreal:The bees in the face don't bother me entirely; I'm still to afraid to not suit up!


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## Michael Bush

Huber shows several experiments on the subject of ventilation and came to this conclusion:

"We tried increasing the number of openings in the side of the box, but were not successful. One of the two candles went out at the end of 8 minutes. The other kept alight as long as the ventilator was in motion. I had therefore not obtained a stronger current by multiplying the openings."--Francis Huber, New Observations Upon Bees, Volume II, Chapter VIII, On the Respiration of Bees

I think we are often mistaken in our assumptions on ventilation.


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## Konrad

I have two entrance in winter, in summer I screen off the top so they enter from bottom only, the reason for this, bees filled too
many frames with pollen in honey super, [above two deep with excluder.]


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## DonShackelford

Konrad brings up a good point Michael, do you find more pollen in your honey supers using open top entrances?

Konrad, can I ask how large your upper opening is?


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## Vance G

Some colonies put pollen everywhere but most tends to be stored low at least in my area and in my experieince. It usually doesn't spin out when extracting and if it does, it is not a problem. But it is all local. I have no idea what your bees will do.


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## hilreal

A number of years ago a gentleman patented a moveable hive top entrance. It is a box filled in (similar to Honey Runn's insulated inner cover) with an opening. I am a sucker to try new things and bought a few to try. The theory is that you place this box above the brood chamber and then place the honey supers on top. No bottom entrance. I tried it with mixed success. When I use it now I just keep moving the top entrance up on top of the honey supers. Does provide good ventilation. I am not sure if it is still available for purchase or not. http://www.google.com/patents/US6450858


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## mmiller

I'm interested in trying a top entrance to avoid the pile of dead bees blocking the entrance during winter.

Mike


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## mgolden

Would the moveable entrance "super" work very well as pateneted? Seems similar to placing an inner cover separating brood area from honey supers.


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## Vance G

If it is a strong hive boiling with bees just offset the super so there is a 1/4 inch gap front and back. No extra equipment needed.


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## Solomon Parker

hilreal said:


> After a while you get used to dealing with it.


Teaches you to be more efficient too.



mgolden said:


> trust one has to open up the SBB.


Not necessary and not very helpful as you found out.


mgolden said:


> Would the moveable entrance "super" work very well as pateneted?


Should I get a patent?


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## Michael Bush

>Konrad brings up a good point Michael, do you find more pollen in your honey supers using open top entrances?

Some bees put pollen all over, most put it in the brood nest where they use it.


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## Ozone

What flaw does experience point out to have an entrance at the top of the brood boxes, and under the subsequent honey supers?

ie in a piece similar to a top cover.


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## hilreal

I was first skeptical that the bees would go both down and up despite the inventor saying it wasn't a problem, but when I tried them they didn't seem to have any problem. Though a clever idea it was just the issue of having to deal with another piece of equipment. I still use them but just keep them on top rather than in the middle. Some strains liked to propolize the bars in the entrance similar to what they will do sometimes with the drilled holes. Maybe I will give them another shot this summer.


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## Konrad

This is the top entrance, notch in the hive cover, I added a landing board.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/IMG_3736_1_1.jpg

A honey super frame with pollen, [I scraped some out]
I surely don't like it when extracting these frames in my two frame extractor, I makes it go out of balance,... have too many wrecked frames, the pollen they don't take anymore, end up with still heavy super.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/IMG_3595_1_1_1.jpg

For two years now I have bottom only entrance in summer and not one's I had one frame with pollen.

I have tried the super offset and bees wanted to glue it up.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/fruitnut_/Honeybee/IMG_7542_1_1.jpg


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## Seymore

Konrad said:


> This is the top entrance...


Wow, Konrad - look at all that pollen!


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## Seymore

Vance G said:


> If it is a strong hive boiling with bees just offset the super so there is a 1/4 inch gap front and back. No extra equipment needed.


And if it rains?


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## Michael Bush

>And if it rains? 

It just runs down the inside of the wall. It's not a problem.


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## wcubed

I'm with Konrad on this one. Mr. Bush and I are aquainted, but we don't have to agree on everything.
Tried the equivalent of the Imerie shim, before George touted it. Used a 3/4 strip of tapered wood shingle on the sides to leave a 3/8 opening in the front and close the sides and back. The bees filled the frame rest area below the opening with a pile of propolis in preparation to close the opening. That experiment lasted about a month before I backed out of it.

Other reasons I'm not interested in persueing a top entry:
The academics have demonstrated that nest scouts select a cavity with bottom entry.
Observations of my own: colonies are less defensive at the top - It appears that they do not expect intrusion at the top, and dedicated guards are sometimes not provided there.
We all are aware of problems feeding at the top.

Foragers "want" to travel through the brood nest. This is fairly obvious from the fact that foragers, arriving at the bottom, do not detour around the congested broodnest on the inside walls of the hive. They would rather wait their turn to negotiate the congestion. I suspect that communication of colony needs is the reason, but see no easy way to prove it.

Walt
All dissent is not based on reluctance to change.


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## Seymore

wcubed said:


> ...We all are aware of problems feeding at the top...


Uh...this "we" isn't. Can you expound?


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## jarodmorrison

Ha! I was just thinking the same thing. What are the problems with top feeding? I think most understand the problems with entrance feeders and open feeding related to robbing, but I'm ignorant to top feeding issues.


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## Seymore

Michael Bush said:


> >And if it rains?
> 
> It just runs down the inside of the wall. It's not a problem.


Thanks Michael. Seemed like it would get the girls wet, but I guess no room to splatter, etc.


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## Beev

Seymore said:


> Uh...this "we" isn't. Can you expound?


I had the same question when I started considering top entrances. Everyone says don't use entrance feeders because they tend to set off robbing, but if you use most types of feeders ( top, division board, bucket, jar, etc.) they are close to the entrance and would therefore tend to cause robbing situations. You have to be a little more creative. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?263091-More-Top-Entrance-Questions


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## Mike Gillmore

Since I've switched to all top entrances here is how I feed. The inner cover is placed on the top box with the notch facing down and this serves as their entrance. Inside an empty box you can feed with quail waterers, bucket feeders, whatever you have. A solid cover goes on the empty box. Any robbers would have to fight through a crowded entrance and work all the way to the hole in the inner cover to get at the syrup. I've never had a problem with robbing when I feed syrup like this.

http://s78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/MAG_Ohio/Quail Waterer Feeder/


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## wcubed

Likely superfluous now, but I was refering to the robbing problem when feeding at the top - as an indication of the top being poorly defended. Others who recognized the problem stepped in to describe their precautions. There are other indications.

Beetles hang out in the top of the hive because they get less harassment there.
I have been known to requeen a queenless hive by releasing a virgin above the inner cover and letting her run down the vent opening. Successful so far.

Note that the tree hollow top is normally surrounded by live wood.
Walt


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## J.ATKINS

Hey guys. This is only my second year beekeeping and I too am tempted with using the Michael Bush patented upper entrances because of the low cost and other described benefits but, I worry about not enough ventilation. Does anybody using this have any absconding or severe bearding problems?


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## Mike Gillmore

If you have ventilation problems you can open up the bottom entrance and staple on #8 hardware cloth to allow air to enter from the bottom. Or use screened bottom boards and increase air flow that way.


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## Adam Foster Collins

Interesting to hear all the points, particularly Walt's perspectives and the idea that the top is not guarded the same as the bottom.

I just built six top entrance/covers, and six screened bottom boards for 8 frame langs to try this year.

I will have a very small bottom entrance, and a larger top entrance - reversing the norm, but the larger entrance will still be much smaller than the normal full entrance of a 10 frame lang. Mine will be about 9" x 3/8" at the top. The bottom entrance will only be about 2"x 3/8". At first, I'll use only the top, but just want to have the option to open the bottom for versatility while I try out the approach.

I've gathered a lot of information on this forum, from a number of threads regarding top entrances. Now it's time to add some personal experience to the mix.

Adam


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## Mike Gillmore

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Interesting to hear all the points, particularly Walt's perspectives and the idea that the top is not guarded the same as the bottom.


That's true until you start using "top" entrances. The guard bees will then concentrate near the new top entrance just as they did with the bottom entrance.


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## Michael Bush

>Interesting to hear all the points, particularly Walt's perspectives and the idea that the top is not guarded the same as the bottom.

I agree that a secondary entrance is not guarded as well as a primary entrance... I do NOT agree that a top entrance is guarded less than a bottom entrance...


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## nickermire

Is there a need for an inner cover??


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## Michael Bush

>Is there a need for an inner cover?? 

I have none. You might find some styrofoam on top of the inner cover (held down by a rock or brick) may help with condensation, but generally the fact that the moisture can exit the top is sufficient.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#innercover


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## Solomon Parker

Nor I. I use a flat bottomed migratory style cover held down by a brick.

Referring to above, I find that upper entrances are much better guarded than lower entrances, to the point that full size lower entrances may be unguarded at all at times. I believe this to be because robber bees follow scent and with two entrances, air is typically entering the bottom and exiting the top. Therefore, guards guard where the attacks are, which is the part of the hive from which the scent is emanating.


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## Ozone

Solomon Parker said:


> Nor I. I use a flat bottomed migratory style cover held down by a brick.
> 
> Referring to above, I find that upper entrances are much better guarded than lower entrances, to the point that full size lower entrances may be unguarded at all at times. I believe this to be because robber bees follow scent and with two entrances, air is typically entering the bottom and exiting the top. Therefore, guards guard where the attacks are, which is the part of the hive from which the scent is emanating.


Assuming that is correct, what is the purpose of the bottom entrance that can't be achieved with a SBB? Or are the bees using the bottom entrance out of necessity?


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## trykonxlgold85

I have a question if you close off the bottom entrance do the bees have a hard time keeping the bottom of the hive clean or do they just carry everything out the top?


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## Michael Bush

>if you close off the bottom entrance do the bees have a hard time keeping the bottom of the hive clean or do they just carry everything out the top? 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm#dead


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## Seymore

Michael, on your site you say "It's a slatted rack with some #8 hardware cloth for a bottom..." I'm curious about the #8 cloth. Slatted is already ventilated, yes? So do you add this to keep things from coming in via the bottom? And you set the hive on whatever (blocks or...), just as you would set any hive?


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## Michael Bush

I don't have any slatted racks anymore. I changed over to eight frames and expanded to 200 hives and never bought eight frame slatted racks. The slatted rack is more of a baffle to reduce draft while providing ventilation. The screen on the bottom is a simple way to make it into a bottom board. Yes, it keeps things from going in the bottom. I usually put a 3/4" by 3/4" board on each side of the rack to hold the screen and to give me room to slide a tray under it in the winter. Then that sits on the stand.


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## Seymore

Ah - got it. Thanks.


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## minz

I put in a 3/8” shim with a small 1x landing strip last year and although it was well guarded the bees did not use it in either of the two hives I tried it on (built two). I had easy an extra hundred bees guarding the second entrance and took it out as it seemed a waste of resources of the hive due to my management. This weekend I threw one back in with only about 2” opening to use as a shim above the candy board and below an empty super. Keep in mind I have the mouse guards in place, the temp hit 50 so they were in some serious congestion at the lower landing board but they were using the top entrance. So as of Saturday I am running both top and bottom one hive. When is it OK to remove the mouse guards?


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## Solomon Parker

Minz, I experienced the same thing on hives upon which the entrance was added later in the year. Conversely, hives which had maintained an upper entrance year 'round tended to want to use it primarily as well.

Even when it is not used, as long as robbing isn't happening, I leave the upper for ventilation. I'm going to try mid entrances this year, 3 deeps for brood, entrance, then supers. We shall see.


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## vdotmatrix

Hi Mr. Bush!
I am in the middle of nectar flow here in Northern Virginia. The issue I am having besides the weather is the bees are getting lazy and depositing their nectar as soon as they enter the hive give crowding the brood chamber to the point of nectar bounding...headache...sitting on a time bomb.

I want to try adding a snelgrove board on top of the honey super only to have a top entrance and maybe they would just store up there as soon as they came in.

Have you ever done this and is this one of the benefits of a top entrance? 

Thanks


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## enjambres

Not Michael Bush but, one of the many off-label uses for a Snelgrove board is adding an entrance in an atypical place, when you get a notion to do that for some reason. Just be sure that you are opening the lower door of the pair of them.

But an inner cover or an Imrie shim would do that just as well, or better. The doors on a S/B aren't that large so there will be a bottleneck, and pollen scraping, when you have a strong flow going on. You'll also likely get some bur comb attaching to the wax.

All my bees are still using their top (winter) entrances in a 2"high shim and only using the lower, reduced one for hive-maintenance chores. I'll probably be taking off the mouse guards in a week, or two, and then move from the notched lower entrance to the 2" beveled one on the hives that historically use the lower one as the main one. 

Nancy


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## vdotmatrix

Thank you nancy. I have ventilator shims and my equivalent inner board has 5 2” holes. We have pollen here year round so not to concerned here in northern va. I want to experiment with the upper entrance will throw them on soooooon thank you thank you


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## vdotmatrix

I really wanted to know what effect adding an additional temporary top entrance would have on colony dynamics? Any ideas?


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## Michael Bush

>Have you ever done this and is this one of the benefits of a top entrance? 

Yes, that is one of the benefits. Especially if you are using an excluder, but if you use the excluder you will need an additional bottom entrance big enough for a drone to get out.


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## enjambres

I'm not sure what dynamics you think might be changed? My bees (and those of my students who tend to copy what they see in my yard) have both top entrances and bottom entrances, and each colony chooses which one to favor and that often changes over the course of the year. 

Right now they are packing in nectar and pollen through the top (winter) entrances. Although I can see the start of the return to primary use of the lower entrance in the colonies that have traditionally preferred bottom entrances during the summer. About a week ago I removed the mouse screens, turned the bottom entrance reducers from the winter-notch to the 2.5" half-height beveled opening. I expect in a week or so more, they will be once again using the bottom one almost exclusively. And for the primarily top-entrance crowd, I am in the process of changing to multi-hole shims to accommodate their preferences since over the next 6 or 7 weeks we will have our strongest flows of the year and I want them to make me a lot of new combs this year to replace all the ones I needed to cull last year. 

I didn't have enough painted equipment last week, so in one case I added a second shim above the inner cover with its own 1" hole, giving that colony three stacked entrances: the winter 1" one, below the notch on the inner cover and a second 1" hole in a second shim above the inner cover where the bees enter and toddle along the _upper _surface of the inner cover and down through the center hole. Today's job is to fix that problem and get things back a normal configuration. I have a new, deep, super to throw on them as well.

From my observation, different colonies have different preferences regarding entrances, and since its easy to detect those preferences by offering both options, I figure why not go along with their choice in the matter? 

My only caveat is not having an entrance shim (taller than a thin Imrie shim) between the honey collection area and the rest of the hive. I think the bees would fill up that space with wild comb, or abandon the super area and move all the honey stores down into the brood area, crowding it out. I think holes drilled in boxes - with no shims - would not cause this problem. 

If pollen-filled cells, or frames, within your honey combs and supers would be a problem I would experiment, first, to see how big an issue this would be for you. I think it would less of an issue during the spring and early summer flow when there is a big, immediate, demand for pollen for raising bees and I think pollen would likely be stored close to the brood areas. Later on in the season when pollen is being accumulated for use during the following winter and spring I think the bees might do more of a mixed-use pantry in their supers. You could perhaps reduce this by using a semi-permanent pollen box inserted below the brood boxes. I use this configuration now, but I'm not entirely convinced about it. It was slated for review last summer, but tabled, when I had to deal with EFB and couldn't safely move any piece of equipment from one stack to any other. 

The one thing that's fundamentally different about my apiary is that my bees live in large, permanent stacks, headed by sequential mother>daughter queen lines and that I don't typically move frames of bees around among my colonies the way many beekeepers who see bees as essentially fungible might do. I very rarely move frames (and always from related colonies, i.e. cousin, aunt, or niece queened colonies) from stronger colonies to a less-vigorous one, but I never "equalize" all the colonies in the yard, nor make up, or add to, new colonies using assemblages of bees and frames from many hives. The relative vigor and sizes of the colonies go up and down, somewhat, according mostly to the age of the queen. I never requeen unless the colony has lost its queen and somehow failed to replace her, in which case I would give them a frame of eggs from a related queen-line colony. I rigorously prevent swarming. And I do not make nucs and splits to add more colonies to my yard to cover expected losses, since until the EFB plague-year I had never had any losses. If I am forced to make a split to forestall a swarm, despite my efforts, I will split and then recombine the colony after they've gotten the notion out of their systems. Although my colony numbers are now reduced due to the fire and EFB losses last year, I have decided to not make splits until I have confirmed that EFB is no longer an issue. The last thing I need is _more_ sick colonies needing even more new equipment. Next year, if all goes well, I will rebuild my yard.

If I am missing the point of your question about colony dynamics, please elaborate and I'll see if I can do better.

Nancy


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## vdotmatrix

Thank you , that's why I am asking! I have never provided a temproary top entrance and I have queen excluders for the first time on 2 of the 6 hives....thank you


enjambres said:


> I'm not sure what dynamics you think might be changed? My bees (and those of my students who tend to copy what they see in my yard) have both top entrances and bottom entrances, and each colony chooses which one to favor and that often changes over the course of the year.
> 
> Right now they are packing in nectar and pollen through the top (winter) entrances. Although I can see the start of the return to primary use of the lower entrance in the colonies that have traditionally preferred bottom entrances during the summer. About a week ago I removed the mouse screens, turned the bottom entrance reducers from the winter-notch to the 2.5" half-height beveled opening. I expect in a week or so more, they will be once again using the bottom one almost exclusively. And for the primarily top-entrance crowd, I am in the process of changing to multi-hole shims to accommodate their preferences since over the next 6 or 7 weeks we will have our strongest flows of the year and I want them to make me a lot of new combs this year to replace all the ones I needed to cull last year.
> 
> I didn't have enough painted equipment last week, so in one case I added a second shim above the inner cover with its own 1" hole, giving that colony three stacked entrances: the winter 1" one, below the notch on the inner cover and a second 1" hole in a second shim above the inner cover where the bees enter and toddle along the _upper _surface of the inner cover and down through the center hole. Today's job is to fix that problem and get things back a normal configuration. I have a new, deep, super to throw on them as well.
> 
> From my observation, different colonies have different preferences regarding entrances, and since its easy to detect those preferences by offering both options, I figure why not go along with their choice in the matter?
> 
> My only caveat is not having an entrance shim (taller than a thin Imrie shim) between the honey collection area and the rest of the hive. I think the bees would fill up that space with wild comb, or abandon the super area and move all the honey stores down into the brood area, crowding it out. I think holes drilled in boxes - with no shims - would not cause this problem.
> 
> If pollen-filled cells, or frames, within your honey combs and supers would be a problem I would experiment, first, to see how big an issue this would be for you. I think it would less of an issue during the spring and early summer flow when there is a big, immediate, demand for pollen for raising bees and I think pollen would likely be stored close to the brood areas. Later on in the season when pollen is being accumulated for use during the following winter and spring I think the bees might do more of a mixed-use pantry in their supers. You could perhaps reduce this by using a semi-permanent pollen box inserted below the brood boxes. I use this configuration now, but I'm not entirely convinced about it. It was slated for review last summer, but tabled, when I had to deal with EFB and couldn't safely move any piece of equipment from one stack to any other.
> 
> The one thing that's fundamentally different about my apiary is that my bees live in large, permanent stacks, headed by sequential mother>daughter queen lines and that I don't typically move frames of bees around among my colonies the way many beekeepers who see bees as essentially fungible might do. I very rarely move frames (and always from related colonies, i.e. cousin, aunt, or niece queened colonies) from stronger colonies to a less-vigorous one, but I never "equalize" all the colonies in the yard, nor make up, or add to, new colonies using assemblages of bees and frames from many hives. The relative vigor and sizes of the colonies go up and down, somewhat, according mostly to the age of the queen. I never requeen unless the colony has lost its queen and somehow failed to replace her, in which case I would give them a frame of eggs from a related queen-line colony. I rigorously prevent swarming. And I do not make nucs and splits to add more colonies to my yard to cover expected losses, since until the EFB plague-year I had never had any losses. If I am forced to make a split to forestall a swarm, despite my efforts, I will split and then recombine the colony after they've gotten the notion out of their systems. Although my colony numbers are now reduced due to the fire and EFB losses last year, I have decided to not make splits until I have confirmed that EFB is no longer an issue. The last thing I need is _more_ sick colonies needing even more new equipment. Next year, if all goes well, I will rebuild my yard.
> 
> If I am missing the point of your question about colony dynamics, please elaborate and I'll see if I can do better.
> 
> Nancy


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## Hops Brewster

All my hives have both a top and a bottom entrance. 2 of them use the bottom as the primary entrance, 2 of them the top is preferred. But one of my hives has propolised the bottom entrance to just a 2 inch wide slit, and chewed the top entrance to make it bigger. I think they're hinting at something...


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