# Trapout side of hill. Looking for advice. **Picture**



## Tomson (Feb 9, 2015)

Hi, 

Interesting find today. Found a hive on my property coming out of the side of a hill. Looks like it is in an old ground squirrel hole. I want these bees, they are the extremely gentle. I suited up because in Southern California you may run into africanized. I was shocked to find that even fussing around pulling branches away from the entrance and setting up a NUC in front they really did seem to be that bothered. Looks like queens stock that I would like to have for future. (my last swarm wants to kill anything that comes within 20 feet looking to re-queen that one)

So here is the question, the ground is soft, should I smoke and then dig them out carefully and hopefully be able to get my hands on the comb / queen and put it in the hive body? Or have others tried that and say no. 

or do I just make a trap out and try to keep them from going around the screen in the dirt, put the Nuc next to the end of the trapout funnel and wait weeks?

Here is a picture of what I quick set up today. I put the hive body on a tree stump with feed to get them used to seeing it there and checking it out, in case I do either of the plans mentioned.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Have you considered leaving it be and trapping the swarms? Looks like a tough one to me...


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Do you know how far back the hole goes? Can you gently slide a camera in there, or do you own a bore scope?


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Some body once said "(if it lives in the ground, its not a honeybee. )" but you are there & there is a fiirst time for every thing. There is the (cleo c. Hogan?) Trap out method that makes this look like a sure thing.
Web search "Hogan swarm trap" images, you will find links to how to do it.
Personally, I would NOT try to dig them.out. you could probably take multiple swarms. from this colony, & still have the colony to trap from next year


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The bees in Arizona have been nesting in caves and rocks and in the ground for as long as anyone can remember. Now they blame it on AHB... but typically in my area bees do NOT nest in the ground. "Bees" in the ground around here are usually either yellow jackets, bumble bees, or some kind of solitary bee.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The comb is likely to start a foot or two in, and continue back in for maybe a couple of yards.

Excavating that is going to be a lot of work, and a problem will be as you go in, the queen and most of the bees will move towards the back, and you will be dropping dirt all through everything.

It will be a case of what tools and physical strength you have. Not sure if it's possible, but ideally, you should dig along the side of it to expose the whole thing and then start gently removing comb, but that could be very difficult.

In my life I have found one only bees nest in dirt, or rocks really, in the cliff face of an old stone quarry. Didn't attempt to get it out, all too hard.

As you consider this hive breeding material, an alternative approach could be pull some brood comb out and make queen cells from it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Doesn't seem like setting a trapout up would be terribly difficult. Or just put some swarm traps in the area?


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## Tomson (Feb 9, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> The bees in Arizona have been nesting in caves and rocks and in the ground for as long as anyone can remember. Now they blame it on AHB... but typically in my area bees do NOT nest in the ground. "Bees" in the ground around here are usually either yellow jackets, bumble bees, or some kind of solitary bee.


Well these are gentle honey bees, even more surprising they have a nice golden color, I think they are originally from a local keeper's swarm. We have seen our 30 foot carrotwood trees with literally 10's of thousands of bees in them, sounding like a small jet engine, for the past 3 years before I got my hives. This must be where they have been coming from. This is 200 feet from where the trees are. 

My problems is my two have and one queenless swarm hive have not been making any swarm cells as of yet. And I can not get a source of queens that I can get now. I have some coming in about a month. (2).

I would love to trap out if I can secure it in the loose dirt. Then take quantity of bees to make other hives, but the queens are the key to my success. 

As far as taking frames with eggs from my other hives, I have one 3 deeps tall that is made up of strong gentle bees that I was just leaving alone for honey, a second 2 2 x 10 deeps that has a questionable queen, lots of bees but not really laying that good, looking to requeen, And then the nasty little AHB swarm that I am really looking to requeen. They balled to death their queen the second day I had them, (see post) I have wasted one nice frame of brood on them already. So I would love to see some queen cells somewhere, but hey that is what I was trying hard to aviod earlier by expanding hives an opening the sides per Matt Davey. I guess I did a good job with swarm prevention. Now I nothing to seed other boxes.

Anyone have any queens for sale now?


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## Tomson (Feb 9, 2015)

I like the idea of the Hogan style. I think that is the best first shot. It seems like a win win. I can get the bees in the box and maybe a queen, if no queen i get a bee making factory to make starter nucs, and lastly, after a while if I want I can still dig it pull its comb put it in a box next to hive and close up hole and hopefully (fingers crossed)have queen on the comb.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thing with a trap out is you get the bees not the queen, so in terms of getting breeding material it is not working.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I think I would wait a bit until you have better weather with more expectation of good mating weather. If you accidentally kill the queen in the process, even if you get young-enough brood for the bees to make a new one, you'll still need to get that virgin mated. (That's the only way you'd ccapture the genetics.)

If you think a nearby beekeeper has bees like this, why not go and ask to buy a few frames of eggs and young brood and add those genetics to your apiary that way?

You are a new, and very enthusiastic beekeeper, digging the bees out of the ground sounds like a very complicated, risky process. Don't get ahead of your skills and experience. If you are not successful, you will destroy this colony and the shelter resource, too, in the process. 

My advice is to delay and keep watch (well, a swarm trap nearby wouldn't hurt, either.) All of my bees were cut-outs from my barn walls, which compared to a ground-level trap-out/dig-out was hardly complicated or difficult. Still it was not a benign, gentle process from the bees' perspective.

Keeping your mental eye attuned to the bees' perspective is what improves the likihood of beekeeping success, IMO. And it's one of the greatest gifts of beng a beekeeper, too. The chance to participate, even vicariously, in the lives of these intricate and complex social insects is extraordinary.

Enj.


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## cwood6_10 (Apr 17, 2012)

I have done a whole lot of trap out and I wouldn't touch that one because your odds of success are not in your favor. I would set swarn traps like others have mentioned and leave them be. Bees have a way to find a way around your trap out and you will fight it constantly. Be patient and catch a swarm!! You get the genetics and more bees and it's way easier.


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

Read up on Cleo Hogans method. I don't know your circumstances or how hard the dirt is around the entrance but you might be able to figure a way to close off the entrance to make it work for you. Give Cleo a call, he has helped others with similar problems. He may have some advice for this kind of a situation. You could always resort back to catching swarms. My $.02 worth, Dale


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## AL from Georgia (Jul 14, 2014)

Feed the heck out of them and place a few swarm traps around the location. The feeding will hopefully cause them to cast a few swarms, and there will be your waiting traps. This way you get a queen and workers without ever disturbing the original colony. Theoretically, you could use this method until the original colony dies out, possibly catching several swarms. I agree with the others giving you this same advice, especially if you want the genetics.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

We all know you're new and excited, but honestly, I'd leave them alone, set up some swarm traps and call it a day. You get some queens mated in the area, and guess what, you're getting those genetics on a better level then you would capturing that queen.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Thing with a trap out is you get the bees not the queen, so in terms of getting breeding material it is not working.



Oldtimer.... Just not true. I and thousands of others get the queen with a proper trapout. With the Hogan method you can either eliminate the colony by taking the queen and the bees, or leave the queen and get multiple starts (nucs) each year.

If anyone wants to learn how to do it, e-mail me at [email protected] and I will send you the guide. You can make your own trap from an old 8 or 10 framer. I will help anyone. NO SALESMAN will call.

cchoganjr


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## Tomson (Feb 9, 2015)

Got them in the box.

I took the deep with some frames to the hive in the side of the hill. I was going to do a Hogan trap. But I brought a small shovel to explore and prepare for trap. I found that the comb was starting only 5 inches from the entrance in loose dirt. So I went for it. I was able to take out whole combs that were full of honey. too much dirt to use, but I put them all in the box (lots of dirt) I got all the comb from the hive. Bees were mostly flying. I scraped as many bees as I could get out of the hole and put them at entrance to box. I then was able to put the box right where the hive was. They flew for hours but by this evening most all the bees flew or climbed into the Super. 

Tomorrow I am going open it and brush off bees from dirty old comb on board at entrance, clean out dirt and junk then put in new frames and some drawn comb. Let them settle at the same location for a few days and then see what I have in the box, look for queen etc. 

This was not a huge hive. I would say there was no more than 1 square foot of room in the hole. It was absolutely packed. It was like taking oval slices of bread until I got to the end about a foot. There were also red ants fighting with them during the dig out. Probably why not to many in the ground. I am sure they will appreciate some more room. They would have to swarm to expand, but how big would the swarm be? Even if it was all of them maybe 5 frames of bees. 

I will post pictures tomorrow.

I am wondering about moving them to where my other boxes are? Will they figure it out and stay? It is only a few acres away. Also any other suggestions welcome.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well nice work Tomson very impressive!

While others are talking you just doing. 



Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Oldtimer.... Just not true. I and thousands of others get the queen with a proper trapout. With the Hogan method you can either eliminate the colony by taking the queen and the bees, or leave the queen and get multiple starts (nucs) each year.


Well I never knew it could be done Cleo, so have sent you an email requesting a copy of your guide, greatly appreciate you sharing, this will be interesting.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you can dig them out at a very shallow hole then why not dig them thru the entire hive.
Borrow or rent an excavator if you have to. Like you said this is not such a big hive so
things can bee easy to do. Bring more boxes just in case.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

One of the locals that does bee removal for free talks about a buried hive. It was in a pile of rock mixed with dirt that was several dump truck loads.

He did it and said it was the hardest work he could remember. 

Way to go. :thumbsup: :applause: Determination is the driver of success. (And sometimes a little ignorance of what lies ahead does help).


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## Tomson (Feb 9, 2015)

marshmasterpat said:


> One of the locals that does bee removal for free talks about a buried hive. It was in a pile of rock mixed with dirt that was several dump truck loads.
> 
> He did it and said it was the hardest work he could remember.
> 
> Way to go. :thumbsup: :applause: Determination is the driver of success. (And sometimes a little ignorance of what lies ahead does help).


This was very easy. about 45 minutes and I had the entire hive comb in my box. So there is nothing for them to go to hole is gone, all their furniture is in the new home. 

Any suggestions of when I move the box to the new location on my property? Drift etc.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

When they start to bring in the pollen.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

With the bees all going to your box, it does sound like you got the queen. Big thing now is not to accidentally kill it so move them once things are stable enough that no comb or whatever will collapse through the move and risk killing it.

With hives like that I find the easiest way to get them working on your frames is to remove the wild comb and give them a frame of brood from another hive plus as many other frames as they need. But if you have the patience to stick bits of wild comb into a frame you can but it's messy and they will not have the strength of wired comb.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Good Job, I was almost going to say on my initial post... unless you see comb right at the entrance.... Move them at night, some bees might go back though, if it's a fair amount, I'll put a box with some comb there for them to go into and move them in the evening back to the hive, typically they're happy to be back home and will re-orient, or you can put a comb or two of brood and bees in a box there and make a split and move it once the new queen is mated and laying. The wayward foragers boost the population nicely that way.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

marshmasterpat said:


> One of the locals that does bee removal for free talks about a buried hive. It was in a pile of rock mixed with dirt that was several dump truck loads.
> 
> He did it and said it was the hardest work he could remember.
> 
> Way to go. :thumbsup: :applause: Determination is the driver of success. (And sometimes a little ignorance of what lies ahead does help).


It is not 'ignorance' it is 'not being hindered by previous prejudice'.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You can move this hive back to your yard at any time of the day.
Just put a frame or 2 inside another box to replace the removed one.
All the foragers will be back at this location to settle in. Then you can move the
box again back to the yard united with the queen hive. Doing this a few time will catch
all the foragers.
If needed you can put a frame or 2 of young nurse bees from another hive inside to keep the hive strong too.
You can also move the queen into another nuc so to make a split from your strong hive with all the
nurse bees. They will make many queen cells soon in the now queen less hive. It depends on how many bee resources
available for you to do this.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> You can move this hive back to your yard at any time of the day.
> Just put a frame or 2 inside another box to replace the removed one.
> All the foragers will be back at this location to settle in. Then you can move the
> box again back to the yard united with the queen hive. Doing this a few time will catch
> ...


Or just close them up and move them at dark. Seems like a slightly better idea than making half a dozen trips back and forth.


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## DAM Bees (Mar 10, 2015)

If you can get a good fit, seal, over the entrance, try using the hogan trap out. I set one up 3 days ago and left tunnel wide open for them to get used to it as well as waiting for warm weather. Check out additional pics on my blog. Dirk


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## Northwest PA Beekeeper (Mar 28, 2012)

Tomson said:


> Tomorrow I am going open it and brush off bees from dirty old comb on board at entrance, clean out dirt and junk then put in new frames and some drawn comb. Let them settle at the same location for a few days and then see what I have in the box, look for queen etc.
> 
> I am wondering about moving them to where my other boxes are? Will they figure it out and stay? It is only a few acres away. Also any other suggestions welcome.


I think I wouldn't mess with them anymore. Add an extra hive body on and let them move up into it. Once the queen is up in it, put a queen excluder between the boxes and once the bottom box (with their old comb) is all hatched, you can then remove it. I wouldn't want to be messing with the old comb for fear of squishing the queen.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Good idea about the qe.
Not sure how secure but other ppl might come to take it away. Too risky to me.
Moving at night is dangerous if there are snakes there. In my backyard it is safer but
not in the open bushy field. Spring time is when all the critters gone out including the poisonous
insects. Regardless, the field bees are going back there anyway because they are unaware that
they got moved at night. That is where the empty comb and a box come in handy. Some field bees
will be lost eventually but the queen will make that up.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

"Got them in the box."

Excellent! I truly did not think it could be done. Waiting for your pics!:thumbsup:


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Well I never knew it could be done Cleo, so have sent you an email


Old Timer...Info on the way. If you have questions, just let me know.

cchoganjr


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> Or just close them up and move them at dark. Seems like a slightly better idea than making half a dozen trips back and forth.


T, I'm glad for your success.
When I move hives I try to close up late in the evening, then move early in the morning.
Bees in the dark are incredibly not happy!
Good luck! ... CE


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## Tomson (Feb 9, 2015)

Here is a Video of the process.

https://youtu.be/BAeEJ9r2ccA 

The day after I put them in the box, the next morning they all returned to the hole. The queen must have been flying during the first attempt. I found them in a swarm ball on the side of the hole. (See Video).

I took out all of their old comb from the box, clean out all the dirt in the box, put in fresh frames and a frame of brood, nectar and pollen. Then I scooped up the bees in a net and put them back in the box. I was getting hot out today, about 90 degrees. About an hour later I noticed that they were all coming out of the box into a swarm cloud above the box. I thought, crap there they go and I will have to follow them. I thought that maybe the box was getting to hot as they might not have their cooling system set up yet as it was all new. I put a plywood cover over the box, and in a few minutes they all went back into the box and fast. Crazy, but hey I'll take it. The entire hive has accepted the box now and they stayed there, so far. It is like I made them swam and then caught them. Hopefully they feel like they swarmed also.


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## Tomson (Feb 9, 2015)

Cloverdale said:


> "Got them in the box."
> 
> Excellent! I truly did not think it could be done. Waiting for your pics!:thumbsup:


https://youtu.be/BAeEJ9r2ccA


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Cleo thanks for sending me the guide, very interesting and nice pics. 

I had always thought it was just done to harvest bees, but can see how as per your guide, the queen can be encouraged to come out, so well done. 

BTW I first got interested in bees from a hive in a tree at my school when I was a kid. I did build something like your trap to try to get them out but it didn't work, probably due to my poorly built schoolboy technology. So maybe that contributed part of my thinking this is just to get bees. Anyhow, great guide!


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Tomson said:


> https://youtu.be/BAeEJ9r2ccA


Thanks, great video! Nice capture. :thumbsup:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

When you scoop out the group of bees, did you find or saw the queen with them?
If you can somehow locate the queen and put her into the hive box then they will go with her.
Putting a queen excluder at the entrance will ensure the queen will bee laying and the workers
will stay too. Good idea about the wood on top to shade them. Make sure to have the top ventilated
too. If nobody can find your hive then leave them there for a few days to make sure that
everything is fine before moving the box to the new location.
Also, after they settle down then you can shake a few frames of nurse bees to increase the hive
population too. Then you can graft the larvae to make some queens from. It is so much fun in beekeeping
wouldn't you say?


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## Tomson (Feb 9, 2015)

beepro said:


> When you scoop out the group of bees, did you find or saw the queen with them?
> If you can somehow locate the queen and put her into the hive box then they will go with her.
> Putting a queen excluder at the entrance will ensure the queen will bee laying and the workers
> will stay too. Good idea about the wood on top to shade them. Make sure to have the top ventilated
> ...


I think the first time the queen was not there when I was putting the existing comb in the box big mess dirt and honey. Then they all went back to the hive spot, now a big hole in the hill. That is what I videos the next day. Saw them group of bees hanging and then just scooped them into the box, all the bees swarmed in the air and then all went into the box. I filled the hole and they are back to work now and covering the brood frame I put in there. This hive is on my property, 10 acres. If someone is walking there, they walked past a keep out sign.

I want to do the grafting next. Yes having fun, BK is complexed so I like the challenge. Won't a shake of nurse bees get killed without Newspaper combine?

Also, what about feeding them? the flow is on here, 88 deg. today everything is blooming. But there is hardly any empty drawncomb, Just one medium frame? Rest fondation and the one brood comb that you see in the video. Some nectar on it.

I have some Pro Health from Mannlake? should I put some in a frame feeder?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If they are getting nectar naturally they will draw all the comb they need or have bees enough to cover.

Because you value this queen and don't want to loose it fastest way to safely boost bee numbers is to give them a comb of hatching brood every few days, only what they can cover at any one time, pick combs where the baby bees are just starting to hatch out. 3 or 4 frames of brood later & there will be a good number of bees in there. Then you probably should let them increase on their own so you can see if the bees from this queen are really as good as you thought, plus minimise risk of swarming and mite transfer.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Cabin said:


> It is not 'ignorance' it is 'not being hindered by previous prejudice'.


And the choir said, "ain't that the truth"!  Especially for the "leaners" that say it can't be done in my location Nice work Tomson.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Even though everything is blooming full of nectar and pollen, but if
you don't have enough field bees then they will not collect enough to feed this hive. Newly moved hive has almost all the field bees back at the old location. How many frames of bees and nurse bees are inside the hive now? You are counting the number of bees that will cover these frames and not the number of frames.
The reason for putting in the young nurse bees is to make sure that the queen is well fed and laying again. And all her broods are covered. The added bees are to ensure the hive is growing because the field bees are dying everyday too. 
That is why feeding them patty and syrup is very important now until they have sufficient field bees to bring in the resources. Also, putting in 2 empty drawn comb on either side of the brood nest will have extra space for the queen to lay. So without the extra field bees you have to feed them and provide a place for them to store the extra feeds so that everyone is well nourished including the queen. Feeding syrup is tricky so don't over feed that they over filled the brood nest that the queen have no space to lay.
To answer your question, the nurse bees cannot fly yet because they are full of food source inside their bodies. That is why the young nurse bees rarely kills the queen. They are between the field bees and young hatch out in the bee hierarchy. To get the newly hatched young bees you have to time it well when they are just hatched. It is true that the just hatched young bees will accept the queen more readily. But the young hatched bees will take at least 3 more days for them to fill up their bodies with food source. Only the field bees are aggressive toward the queen. So do a shake out in front of the hive or take a frame of young nurse bees to allow the foragers to fly off and then put this frame of bees inside the hive about 1 frame space away. Then cover everything back to normal. The next day when the sun almost set go in the hive again to move this frame close to the queen's frame allowing the nurse bees to mingle with their new queen. By this time all the field bees should already bee inside their own hive. 
The whole thing is to make sure that there are enough bees to take care of everything. I would not recommend to do a graft until you are sure this hive is not mean when they grow up. Many times when a nuc hive is still small they don't show the aggression sign compared to a full grown hive. It is still early in the Spring so wait awhile to evaluate this hive further. Grafting for some after the solstice queens is an excellent idea too. Sometime I write too much so does it makes any sense to you?


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