# I SPLIT on June 24th Please advise



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Keefis said:


> Unfortunately I could not locate the queen so she remains in the old hive.


How do you know she did not end up in the new hive? If you couldn't find her, then you don't. No matter.

You should start seeing queen cells developing already. Be careful not to damage them if you look into the hive. After three days, the hive with eggs still in it (and no queencells) will be the one that has the queen.


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

I am pretty sure I did NOT move the queen.
I moved 5 bars and had to Macgyver the old bars onto the new ones, all the while I was looking for the queen.
When I only have 5 bars in the new hive I should definitely be able to find her if she was in the new.
BUT I don't see any vertical combs that would even resemble a queen cell yet. 
I am going to wait a few days and move some more bees over and maybe another batch of eggs if nothing happens.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

It never hurts to add more eggs and young brood.


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

Hey everybody!!
I still don't see any Queen cells in the new hive... Coulkd the bees have missed their chance to make a queen from the available eggs?

How much longer should I wait to add more bars?

The new TBH is 5 feet and has a divider board in the middle, should I move the old hive to the new hive and utilize the divider board to split?


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

The eggs are eggs for three days, then hatch into larva. It's at that point that bees start constructing the queen cell cups around the selected larva. 
Do you still see eggs in the split, and just not queen cells? All the eggs should have hatched by now unless there is still a queen. 

I can't see where your problem is. I made a queenless split and I think within 48 hours I counted over a dozen queen cell cups. This was a couple weeks ago and the queens should have hatched by now. Upon a recent inspection I discovered the queen cells empty, but did not observe the virgin queen. But just to clarify I wasn't really looking for one. So there is a chance that the pupa died and was removed by the bees. If only they were born with that bright paint dot on their back...sure would make things a lot easier!


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> It never hurts to add more eggs and young brood.


To boost a hive indeed. Just don't add so much that the worker bees can't take care of all of them...I think I may have one split struggling for this reason.


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

Tom,
I did see some dead larvae on the floor of the hive. (maybe 5 or so)
What do you think about moving the old hive into the new one that has a divider board.
Then I should be able to split -- in the same hive, or if all fails I just take out the divider board and recombine. What would my best move be?
one extra thought...If I had a queen excluder in the divider board would the workers be able to tend to both sides of the hive? With one side hopefully producing some queen cells. Or would the smell of the queen prevent that from happening?


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

No the queen excluder idea won't work. Just like you said, because her pheromones will still permeate the hive. You risk the same with using only a leader board to separate the two. In this scenario, the bees may just use both ends of the hive and as long as bees are going back and forth (via the two separate entrances) the queen scent might still prevail. If queen rearing was that easy queens would be a lot cheaper. You have to take the risk and just make the hive (split) entirely queenless. This will prompt the workers to raise a new queen. If done properly, they will raise a lot of queens, for five frames I'd estimate 5-10 queen cells, assuming they have plenty of resources. You'll need to go in once the cells are capped, and cut out all but 2-3 of them, to prevent a possible swarming scenario.

Since I had two dozen queen cells, I made two more splits, taking 15 bars of brood and turning it into 3 5-frame splits, each with a few queen cells. Have you looked up the queen breeding calendar? It's here on the forums somewhere, but google can find it just as quickly. It's published by the beekeepers of Susquehanna County in PA. I used it for my splits, and it was pretty accurate, or at least seems to be. Granted this is my first time splitting and trying to raise queens as well, so don't take my blabbering for gospel. At this point I still don't know if my splits were successful or not, as I still have not confirmed a queen in any of them. 

I wouldn't worry too much about the dead larva. That is probably just a product of the move. 

Before you make any more drastic measure of recombining, resplitting, moving, etc, do one more good inspection on the queenless split. If you still see vast amounts of eggs, you must have queen or else laying workers. I don't think a split would revert to laying workers in just a couple days. From my understanding, LW is basically the end times for a hive, and they are pulling out all the stops (sadly the efforts are in vain). 

I honestly can't understand why a queenless split would not start raising a new queen almost instantly. It's just not natural. Maybe you need to re-evaluate where your bees are going to school. Common sense isn't all that common these days. Do another inspection, and look close for the queen cells. At this point they will be just queen cell cups, about the size of a kidney bean. They will get bigger over time and should end up about the size of small peanut once capped. If your bee population is high, there may be cups in there that you just can't see. I was able to spot mine because they were right on the ends of the comb, so I could see them through the window. But there are a lot of spots in the hive that can't be seen through the window. Just be very careful not to damage any possible cups when you go to pulling bars out to look at them. If upon the inspection you still don't see any queen cell cups at all, I'd consider moving over another bar of eggs/larva (leaning towards the eggs as you may not know what age the larva is).

I'm thinking about buying a queen castle and using it to raise queens next time before I make splits. Then I don't risk sacrificing near as much since I'll be able to let the queen hatch and breed, and then make the splits and move the queens in. 

Look at the silver lining. If all your efforts to split fail, you can always recombine in the end and will have lost only time. The really scary part comes when your only hive goes queenless, and you have to pray that they raise one and she makes it through all the perils of breeding and the hive survives.


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

tom,
here is the update... I am blind and or dumb!!( its both)
the original hive had queen cells.. I may have lost the original queen already when I moved the first five bars.. Maybe she just flew away.?
I took the comb with a queen cell and moved it to the new hive. I hope and assume that there are more queen cells in the original hive.
As for the new hive I saw no new eggs and no sign of the queen, that is why I moved the queen cell. I hope I didn't screw the pooch on this one.
Should I consider buying a queen??


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If the queen is missing, it is quite possible or even probable that she got mooshed in the melee or flew out and got lost. Make sure there are cells in both hives and let it ride.

It is also possible that other effects could be going on, possible loose virgins and other things, but it's hard to tell at this time. Remember, you can rarely make things worse by doing nothing.


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Solomon Parker has it right. Yes the original hive must have lost the queen somehow. I'm guessing you picker her up on a bar as you moved it, and she either fell or flew off. I made sure when I was moving bars that I knew which one the queen was on, and I kept an eye on her throughout the transfer between boxes to make sure she didn't fall off. 

So see, the original hive raised a new queen. Not sure why the split didn't also attempt to if they had eggs available. Perhaps the queen made the move but then died somehow or bailed on you. But it's odd. Even if she died immediately the bees should have tried to raise a new queen. Then again I guess if no queen and no eggs in the new hive, I guess she could have just stopped laying before she died. The bees wouldn't have raised a new queen if her pheromone was still strong. 

As long as you have good numbers in your hives, I would hold off ordering queens. It sounds like they are progressing as needed towards raising a new one. Let it ride on this one, and if in a few weeks you still don't have any confirmed queens, then consider ordering. 

I like that quote "Remember, you can rarely make things worse by doing nothing." A lot can be learned from that practice. Patience is indeed a virtue, and a vital tool in beekeeping.


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

OK follow me here I split on 24th. I did not think that i had moved the queen, but I did. (Obviously today I found queen cells in the original.) BUT the new hive is showing no new eggs, nor is it showing queen cells. I don't know if the queen got mooshed or whatever, BUT if she did get killed then why didn't the new hive build queen cells? something does not seem right with that, right?


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

I really can't explain that, I've never heard of it happening. I suppose the queen could still be in the hive but not laying. 

If it's any comfort, I just checked my nucs. By the calendar, yesterday and today would have been mating flights. One nuc has a laying queen. The other, I spotted the queen, and the last appears to be queenless. 

I moved a bar with eggs over to the queenless nuc and will give them one more chance to raise a queen. If this fails, then I will call it off and just recombine. As is I'm 2/3 so I'm pretty happy. Then again, the queen could have just been out mating, or possibly I missed her. If I spot queen cups in the next few days I'll know.


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

SO.. 16 days total till queen hatches - starting from the 24th.? (if the egg was one day old)
How many days after that do the mating flights happen?

About your splits..how many bars in each?


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

You really need to look at the queen calendar that I mentioned earlier. Just search it on Google "queen bee breeding calendar" and it will probably be the first link. You can enter in the date that you grafted (or in your case split) and it will generate a calendar with all the values, including when they hatch, when they mate etc. 
Now obviously the calendar is not exact, at least not with mating flights and such, because those vary with the weather. But it is accurate on the actual pupating cycle. Keep in mind with the calendar, it says day 1 the queen lays the egg. To be exact, the egg is in egg form for three days. So you have to set an imaginary time. Assume the day runs from 12 AM to 11:59 PM, and that the egg was laid at 12 AM. So it should hatch 72 hours later. Again, not exact, but an effort to clarify. 

You can find a blog basically of my split process under the TBH forums, I think it's titled "Queenless Split". But to summarize, I took the queen and five bars to a new hive leaving behind a hull hive of 15 bars and no queen. Once they capped the queen cells, and I was passed the sensitive development phase, I split the queenless colony three ways into three five-frame nucs. So I went from one hive of 20+ bars to four hives at 5 bars each.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Speaking of that, you can download a free copy of a spreadsheet I made to track the queen's progress and notify you of important dates and things you need to do using Michael Bush's info and some others as well.

You can download it for free on my website. Simply input the grafting date and everything else is done for you.

http://parkerfarms.biz/queens.html#Queen_Calendar


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

Hey you guys, the calender is sweet! I got home today and the one queen cell in the NEW hive was not capped, one episode of family feud later I went out and checked and voila, capped cell! 
I took this comb out of the original hive a few days after the initial split and it had only one queen cell on it. (once I saw nothing happening) 
Is it dumb for me to assume that the original hive has multiple queen cells still in it? Normally they make a bunch right? to ensure success..? 
I saw on the calender to not disturb them for a few days, which happen to be now, so I don't want to dig into the hive to check for said queen cells.
I appreciate all you guys have helped me with already, no doubt.


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

I'm just curious, did you do any research before getting your bees? I've found a really great book is the Backyard Beekeeper. It takes a lot of approach from the hobbyist perspective. But it is very informative on almost every aspect of beekeeping, even including directions on how to make hive products other than honey. Between that book, and the queen calendar, I was confident enough to make my splits and raise the queens. 

Now to the point (quoting the book), the bees will raise as many queens as they can or see fit. Obviously they would want to raise a few at least, but they're not going to turn every fertilized egg into a queen. I see it like this: when the queen pheromone disappears, the bees go into recovery mode. A few bees will start raising a queen, and those around will see what's going on, and not raise a queen. But what about the bees a few bars over? They don't see this, so they to start raising queens. Then again that theory is flawed by my own experience, as most of my queen cells were in groups of 2-4 on the end of a given bar. So maybe the bees are competitive and wanted to see who could build a queen cell the fastest...

I'd guess there probably are more queen cells in the original hive, but I'd wait until at least a day and a half past the sensitive development phase. I believe there is a three day window between sensitive development and hatching. Weather pending I'd aim for the middle of that gap just to be sure your not too early or too late. You'll need to cut out all but 2-3 queen cells per hive. Too many excess queens could cause swarming. Good luck.


----------



## Ozarks Honey Company (Apr 18, 2012)

If I might offer some suggestions and possible issues that have occured...



> I moved 5 bars and had to Macgyver the old bars onto the new ones, all the while I was looking for the queen.


Not exactly sure what you meant by this statement, but I can guees it involved twisting, turning and otherwise handling the comb quite alot, possibly even turning upside down.

If that was the case then it is possible that you dislodged some/all of the eggs and jostled the larvae to the point where the nurse bees did not find or otherwise see a viable enough cell to raise a queen. This is all part of that "sensitive develpoment phase" Tom is talking about. Some other possibilitys are as Solomon pointed out she probably got smooshed or otherwise lost making both hives queenless. The fact that the old hive raised at least one queen cell seems to indicate that is a posibility.

Next, if you ar trying to raise queen cells, Solomon has the best advice in "do nothing." Take it like this... If you want to raise a queen then you must move the eggs as little as possible. I have a 30yr veteran beekeeper that says if you so much as tip a frame when looking for eggs then "dont use it". Now I think that might be a bit on the extreme side, but his advice does have some merit. Next, if you constantly are going into the hive to check for queen cells the you are disrupting what the girls are trying to do, also this is another opportunity to "roll" the queen. It also jostles those cells that they may already be turning into a queen and may make them change their minds (especially in the early stages), which could account for the dead larvae.

Disturbing the eggs as little as possible is one argument for pulling the queen from the parent hive. That way you know that the eggs in the original hive have been moved minimally. Of course that is always dependent on finding the queen. And we all know how easy that can be. 

Whenever I make splits I always try to pull 4 combs of brood & bees and one of honey (if possible) and I also try to get the queen (again if possible). If I get the queen I leave at least one comb with eggs in the old hive and try to get the older brood for the new split. If I cant find the queen then I try to make sure each hive has eggs and young larvae. Then, unless I think there is something wrong by outside observation, I leave them both alone for at least 10 days and especially in between days 5 and 9. But usually I wait till about day 12 or 13 if I even check them at all. Keep in mind, I am talking days since the split, so add 3 days to my numbers if you are going off the calender (which yes Solomon, for such a simple tool, is very cool).

Anyway, not saying you did anything wrong, just some observations of ways that I do things and have been told how to handle that precious cargo.  Sounds like you are on target now and best of luck raising those new queens.

BTW - I have been told by several old timers that any queens raised after the summer solctice are supposed to be the best. Something to do with the girls not being preoccupied with other duties, so they do a really good job raising queens this time of year. 

Tom, I really like your method of splitting a hive 4 ways, but only having to use one box to build the cells. That is what cell builders are all about and it is WAY cool!


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

tom, are you psychic? My friend Jeremy gave me one book and that's it!! Kim flottum.
Anyhoo- I gave them some syrup in the new hive to help them along. They seem to like my cooking.
I am stoked about the window in the new hive because I can gawk without intrusion. 

Ozarks, I did tilt the combs a bit and could have emptied them out when I was trying to eyeball them. The macgyvering was gentle as I just banded it to a longer top bar from the new hive. Dang.. Thanks for that info about the eggs. Those are the intricacies of bees I am looking to learn..


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

UPDATE TIME
I moved some queen cells yesterday the 4th. I waited an extra day since I was not positive of what day the bees took initial action.
Now I have 2 cells in the new hive and 3-4 in the original hive.
They are scheduled to hatch tomorrow, but possibly tonight since it has been really hot..
I'm getting excited!!
I have been feeding them syrup and they eat over a pint a day, and this is the 4 comb split!!
I have seen foragers returning to the new hive with pollen, so that is a good sign.
The bees are definitely more protective than normal right now, I get headbutted as soon as I open the hive. No stings though. 
I will update as soon as they hatch.. Wish me luck.


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

I am happy to announce the birth of Her Royal Majesty ...The Queen. well at least the first of them.
There is still an unhatched queen cell and it is a biggy.
I tried to upload a photo but no luck.
Should I try to separate them now while I have the chance and pull a multi-split?
How are your nucs doing Tom?


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

I think of you are trying to split now that queens are hatching you may be too late. They should all hatch out by tomorrow, or be killed by the ones that precede them. A new queen, as soon as she hatches, will go hunting for her competitors, even stinging them while still in the queen cell. If they aren't hatched out in a couple more days I'd assume them dead and pitch them out. I made my splits the day after the sensitive development phase. 

I am out of town, so I don't know of any changes to the splits since my last update. One laying queen, one hatched but not laying, and one queenless nuc. Talk about a good mix of everything huh? I offered a bar of eggs to the queenless nuc so they can try again, and on Monday I observed at least one queen cell cup. This time it was in the middle of the frame, the definition of an emergency queen cell. I've vowed I won't open this hive until I'm sure this cell is passed the hatching date. I really want this to work out so the all make it. I'm not worried about the queen that isn't laying yet. I think she is just playing hard to get with the drones


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

Queens are definitely in both hives!!
The activity level has increased dramatically. 
The bees have been scenting the entrances quite often and I have not seen this behavior from my bees before. I assume they are preparing for the Queen's mating flights.(and successful return) Has anyone ever noticed that?
In a week or less I should start to see eggs. Hopefully I won't dump the eggs out trying to look at them.
This was my first split so I wasn't comfortable with the inherent risks. I just needed to get one under my belt so I can refer from experience. But all seems well.


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

BEST UPDATE YET!!
I split one June 24.. Went out to the hive to check on the new queen's progress.
So there I am, trying to control myself and not open up the hive, when along came my solution. 
My queen flies up and goes in the hive. Well, that is another mating flight under her belt!! Maybe its just me but her butt looked bigger than the other day.(That IS a complement)
Now she knows where to go for some "relations".
BUT how do the queens find the drones on their first mating flight? Do they follow one of their drones to the party?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Congratulations, I've only seen that once. Many beekeepers will never see it!



Keefis said:


> BUT how do the queens find the drones on their first mating flight? Do they follow one of their drones to the party?


The drones find the queen, remember those giant eyes they have?


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Keefis said:


> BUT how do the queens find the drones on their first mating flight? Do they follow one of their drones to the party?


That is a great question, and to my knowledge, researchers still have not honed in on the answer. It seems the bees know where they want to go, based on weather and environment. I actually had the opportunity to speak with a gentleman that is earning his Master Beekeepers Cert. from U of GA about this. He pointed out that the drones not only can see the queen, but can also pick up extremely minute levels of queen scent from great distances. I want to say he said something like 3 parts per thousand for several hundred yards or something, it was a very impressive value. Imagine if teenage boys could pick up tasty perfume that well...the world would be in romantic chaos! 

Continuing on the example of how they know where to go, it was noted that drones from the same colony in successive years were noted to go to the same place. But all the drones are killed in the fall, so how would that message have been passed on? Seems like maybe the drones would do a waggle dance to talk to each other, but who carries the information through the winter? The queen? It is not believed the drones of a given hive actually communicate with their own queen much at all, and they don't mate in the hive. The thought here is that, again referring to the perfume, the queen scent in the hive actually overwhelms the drones. Think of that time you were crammed in a room with someone wearing too much perfume/cologne. At first you though "Dang, that's strong!" but after just a few seconds, your nose adjusts, and you don't really notice it anymore. So I guess the drones get out of the hive, clear their sinuses, and then go hang out with their buddies at the frat house (drone congregation area, DCA) and just wait for that lonely (drunk) queen to come along. 

The guy that was speaking on the topic told a story about a friend of his, who witnessed a DCA and mating occurring over a McDonald's parking lot one day. Not to say that it always happens here, as it obviously does not. The witness said they kept hearing subtle popping sounds (the drones exploding when they mate) and noted dead bees all over the ground. It seems the bees have some way of knowing, based on all the optimum conditions that they crave that day for mating. But they must change their preference based on varying weather. So a DCA will not always be in the same place every day, and not necessarily even in the same place, with the same weather, as there may be other conditions that the bees can sense that we cannot acutely observe (humidity, barometric pressure, tilt of the earth, gravity of the moon, etc). 

I guess it would be pretty cool if researchers could find a way to stick tracking devices to drones from a hive, and observe them for a year, always recording every possible detail. It would be extremely labor intensive, but could expose a lot of really great science in beekeeping. 

Great job with your queens. It really is exciting isn't it! I love the thought that I only had to purchase one package of bees, and now I have 4 colonies going for the cost of one. If only my first group of bees was a wild swarm caught for free. Then I'd really be sitting pretty on the finance charts!


----------



## Ozarks Honey Company (Apr 18, 2012)

Keefis,

Awesome update!!! Like you I have always wondered how the queens find the DCA. Especially when you consider that she will fly up to 12 miles (so I have read in some books) to find them. Crazy cool!

Good luck on the new colonies, glad it finally started working out for you.


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

More info about the queens" sighting. I didn't know how to approach this at first,.. but the other day when I saw my queen returning from her rendez-vous, she had "something" on her butt. 
It what light colored. I thought it was a Monica Lewinski type of situation, and I was right. --- I just read about the drones reproductive organs staying in the queen sometimes. That is what is was!. Kind of gross/funny if you have a 5th grade sense of humor like I do. They say its rare to see a queen return from her mating flight yet even more rare to see some of the drone return.
I am going to buy a lottery ticket right now, hope I don't get struck by lightening while in a shark's mouth, but chances are...


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Yes that is the mating signs. When the drone insert his "tool" there is essentially an explosion that rips his reproductive organs from his body, and leaves them with the queen. Think about it as a timed release. It's like this, you stand at the water fountain all day to drink, but instead you grab a bottle of water and go. The drone dies and falls to the ground. Sad life for the drone, but otherwise he'll just get killed in the fall, so at least this way he dies happy (I assume). This quick mating ability lets the queen mate with multiple drone in a matter of minutes, instead of having to fly around stuck together all day like dragonflies. 
When she returns to the hive with the mating signs, the workers will clean and groom her. This serves as reassurance to the workers too that she has mated, and is not just going out for a casual flight. Wish you could have gotten a pic, but that's OK. What time was it when she returned? I'm wondering if the queen tend to be out all day when they go mating, or if they just take off for a nooner and then return home as quickly as possible. I'm sure they return home quickly to prevent getting eaten by a bird, but I'm just wondering what the time frame for a mating flight would be.


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

When I saw her return it was 6 or 6:30 pm. I wish a would have gotten a picture. She was fast though, I would have missed. 
Related question...This was the split so would the new queen(from the split) mate with drones from original donor hive? (They are about 100 feet apart) Also remember I accidentally killed my queen so could the same thing be happening with the new queen in the original hive and the new hive drones? They are the closest opportunity. I do have a beekeeper about 4 - 5 miles south of me. Don't know anything about him or his bees yet, I need to stop in and introduce myself.


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

I suppose it is possible that they could mate with a sister queen outside the hive, but she should have some sort of queen scent from the time she is born, so perhaps she dominates the hive with her scent before she goes out on flights. That would ensure that her own drones become immune to her scent and don't go after her. 

As for mating with drones from the donor hive, that is certainly possible. Keep in mind, a drone is a direct clone of his queen mother. However a queen raised from an egg laid by the same queen, would be a sister to the drone, but she would be half mother, and half drone from some other colony, so she would have some genetic diversity. The really important thing is just that a drone in a hive does not mate with his mother queen, as this would create some serious genetic narrowing. Then again, as long as the queen has really good traits, this may be desirable. 

I don't know how you would ever track it to see if a drone had mated with his own sister. Like I said, researchers "know" that they don't mate inside the hive, be who knows what happens outside. You're looking at a cloud of possibly hundreds of drones, all going for one queen. There is a chance one of her newly claimed drones could hop on.

I guess it all goes back to the perfume. If the drone is immune to his queen's scent in the hive, does he become entirely immune to it? Or is it only because he is overwhelmed in the hive, and once out and head cleared, perhaps he can smell her again. 

Ever walk into your own home after being gone for a few hours, and you smell something odd? Then you start to wonder if your house always smells like that, or if it's just something that recently started rotting in the trash. As I sit here and relieve internal pressure in my office, I often wonder if other's can pick up traces of that "king scent" when they walk in. I need carbon filter built into the seat of my chair, but that's a different issue...


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

With all that half - mother, son of a second sister stuff I started thinking about Ned Beatty. Horrible.
As far as "king" scent goes..Someone comes in your office, You bring it up, while looking at your trash can as you say "man yesterdays lunch stinks,doesn't it" You will be cleared of any wrong and technically you didn't lie. They will agree with your statement, unless your trash can is empty. 
Anyhooo- real stuff
So do bee breeders set up screen tents for mating to control genetics? They gotta do something. Mating Nuc?
Oh yeah, with what I saw on the queen's butt, if I am ever to look up at a drone cloud,... I am wearing glasses and I am keeping my mouth shut.


----------



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

I think commercial breeders that are boasting genetics typically rely on a few drone producing colonies to essentially oversaturate the local population with their preferential drones. I wonder though, how do you get a drone laying queen? I wonder if a queen goes unmated for long enough if she will always start laying drones. I don't know how else you would enhance drone laying. I really don't know, but here is how I would do it:
Hatch out a queen in a nuc, where all the entrances are covered with a queen excluder so she can't get out. Or hatch her out in captivity, and immediately clip her wings on birth. Place her in a queenless hive with all the entrances covered with queen reducers. Wait a couple weeks and see what happens. Either they will kill her because they find her unmated and unacceptable, or they will accept that they have a lame queen, and they will give up on life expecting to die. Supply the hive with fresh workers by installing a comb or two of capped brood every week or every other week. Actually, I guess the drone laying queen could be kept in the bottom brood box, and donor work brood could be installed into a second level brood box. Once the brood hatched you'd want to move that comb back to a queenright hive to get relaid with eggs. You may have to feed the drone hive to ensure that they have enough food for all those fat drones. 
It seems like a lot of work, but I guess if the profit potential is there to market your good queens, then I suppose it's worth it. 
So what I am visualizing is a dual brood chambered hive, with a queen excluder on the bottom chamber. This would keep the drone laying queen down in the bottom and keep that whole brood box full of drones. But the workers would be able to move down to take care of them.

Then again, I suppose if you are running Langs you could just load your hive with drone comb foundation and hope that the bees followed suit and only laid that foundation in drones. Maybe do the brood chamber with 8 frames of worker foundation, and 2 frames of drone foundation. I have yet to experiment with drone foundation though, so I'm not sure how efficient it is at generating drones. But if it works, then you wouldn't have to make all the effort to have an unmated queen. You just need a queen that plays by the rules and only lays drones in the bigger cells. Interesting thought. I think we have long since gotten off the topic of this thread however, so I think you should start posting these thoughts in other forums under more appropriate titles. That will ensure that others get involved and it's not just you and I blabbering.t:


----------



## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

I have a good update! Both hives of the split are doing good.
eggs everywhere, and larvae everywhere else. 
Extra solid pattern too. I should get population in time for fall flow.
Saw one of the new queens yesterday and she has really "butted out" since a few days ago. A lot bigger once she started laying. She was small and square butted at first. Much pointier and larger now.


----------

