# Please Stop...



## dingo983

PLEASE! If you are a 2 or 3 year beekeeper who is religious militant of the treatment free cult or not....STOP giving advice to new beekeepers like you have 50 years experience. Just because you read Michael Bush's or Randy Oliver's website, does not give you the right or knowledge to impersonate or give information, without disclaimer (example: hey, I've only been doing this for 3 years, but this is what I do) leading new beekeepers into failure while driving experienced beekeepers into the shadows due to the frustration of dealing with your ego and insatiable desire to be recognized. Also don't start a beekeeping instructional youtube page with your brand new, bleach snow white bee suit and your 6 shiny, freshly painted hives in your back yard and preach to me how your treatment free "survivor stock" is far superior to anything out there. Catching swarms and putting them in a box and using theories from 5th grade science class on Darwinism does NOT make you a pioneer in the hobby or industry, you are barely B.S.ing your way through the video while making a fool out of yourself.......I think I covered it all....if not, insert a run on sentence rant of your own below.

P.S. Nothing against treatment free beekeepers with more than 2 - 3 years who understand how to create queens of exceptional stock and not just shake a swarm off a branch and call them "survivor stock"


----------



## Beesure!

You Rock! a lot of BIG HEADS pop up here, got to the filter the good Bee keeps from the bad. Its hard for a new bee to see through B.S.


----------



## beepro

Beekeeping, like real estates, is location specific. What works for me might not work for you because of the many
environmental condition differences. The bee strain is also different from theirs. The new beekeepers should use precaution and common sense in discerning these
advice and methods from the many posts. They need to do their research also to see if treatment is necessary or not. 
They are the one that have to make the last minute decision for their bee situation and not us. New beekeepers are smart people here. 
They will ask you many questions in private to find out. They like us, want to know the latest methods and information for them to keep better
bees. Though not related to treatment, here are the many questions I got ongoing from many:
Where are you? 
How long have you been raising queens? 
So how may queens did you get this year? 
So when do you start your year there?
Did you have more than 1 breeder queen? 
Do you use mini mating nucs? 
How may hives do you have now?
Have you started selling them to others close by or shipping them? 
Did you meet your goals for the year?


----------



## Mr.Beeman

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed, huh?


----------



## scorpionmain

dingo983 said:


> PLEASE! If you are a 2 or 3 year beekeeper who is religious militant of the treatment free cult or not....STOP giving advice to new beekeepers like you have 50 years experience. Just because you read Michael Bush's or Randy Oliver's website, does not give you the right or knowledge to impersonate or give information, without disclaimer (example: hey, I've only been doing this for 3 years, but this is what I do) leading new beekeepers into failure while driving experienced beekeepers into the shadows due to the frustration of dealing with your ego and insatiable desire to be recognized. Also don't start a beekeeping instructional youtube page with your brand new, bleach snow white bee suit and your 6 shiny, freshly painted hives in your back yard and preach to me how your treatment free "survivor stock" is far superior to anything out there. Catching swarms and putting them in a box and using theories from 5th grade science class on Darwinism does NOT make you a pioneer in the hobby or industry, you are barely B.S.ing your way through the video while making a fool out of yourself.......I think I covered it all....if not, insert a run on sentence rant of your own below.
> 
> P.S. Nothing against treatment free beekeepers with more than 2 - 3 years who understand how to create queens of exceptional stock and not just shake a swarm off a branch and call them "survivor stock"












Took me three years, many dollars, & a bunch of bees to figure out that there is a lot of bad advise floating around.


----------



## JTGaraas

Thank you dingo983!

I am a first year beekeeper from Fargo, North Dakota, that started getting the bee-bug about two years ago over Christmas vacation. I ran across some German beekeeping videos using the old woven skeps and old honey harvesting methods, and it was facinating. I decided to explore the subject, and bought two respected books which were read cover to cover and then repeated. I watched several hundred hours worth of youtube vieos, many hours of which displayed conduct that seemed to fly-in-the-face of the recognized experts and common sense! I did not feel I knew enough to make the decision so I tried to get into the University of Minnesota's 2013 first year beekeeper course, but it was full. I decided the timing was not yet appropriate to order a package for 2013, so I decided to keep on reading and watching until the March, 2014, classes -- bee-sides, I had to tell my wife my plans, and also ask if the backyard was available! I am a lawyer, so I had already made sure it was legal. The short story is my wife was amused, but the backyard is reserved for others. A client made some land available, and two packages developed into two (2) hives with each consisting of three (3) deeps of 8-frames and a single medium filled with honey. I also harvested a total130 pounds of honey from both hives in September, and I started two (2) walk-a-way splits that requeened themselves; I hope to over-winter the NUCS above one of the larger hives separated by a double-screened bottom board, with the U of Minnesota suggested over-winter techniques - fully wrapped, with top-ventilation auger hole, reduced bottom entrances, buildrite insulation, and plenty of honey. Each big hive now has 100-120 pounds of honey, and the NUCS are being fed.

This is my method of doing the first visit by a new subscriber, but I have read the discussion threads for a couple of years, and several others.

Dingo983's comments are right-on! It became clear that many people are very quick to give advice, but lack the experience to say the results will be the same for each of many years under the same general circumstances.

The first time I witnessd a major orientation flight, I was afraid I was witnessing a swarm. Thankfully, the experienced beekeepers have described the event in the books and on these forums, so my research was able to calm my initial fears. When reading one thread, I quickly discarded the beekeeper that was honest enough to say he did not know what was happening when a large group of bees seemed to be hovering around the front of the hive - in a frenzy, but was still capable of providing an answer, or hazard a guess! No thank you, I would rather hear from someone who has experienced the event, or knows by way of an educational process - the world is too full of guess, conjecture and surmise.

Thank you dingo983, and all the others like you willing to show us a way to be better bee-guardians.



To all of the experiencd beekeepers out there -- bear with us! We want to learn, and perhaps we should read some of the old threads and books before we ask some of the same old questions. I know we should learn not to give advice until we know what we are taking about.


----------



## waynesgarden

We see the occasional newbie proselytizing their newly-adopted dogma with such zeal, that even with the obvious misinformation, it is refreshing to see. Enthusiasm should be encouraged though misinformation (not differing opinions,) need correction. I sometimes get a bit impatient with this type, but I'm working on it

Then there is the newbie that arrived on the scene with no experience and an almost pathological need to be the expert in all things beekeeping as well as everything else. (our resident Professor Irwin Corey.) This type posts yet doesn't feel a need to listen or learn. Nothing of value to say and thousands of posts to say it.

There is always the ignore function and I've put it to use twice. Once for a know-it-all and one for a racist.

Wayne


----------



## jonathan

Most bee forums I read are the same.
A newbie starts to post, gets his first colony of bees a couple of months later, racks up 2000+ posts then starts to tell everyone else how to do it.
The UK Beekeeping forum is terrible for this.
People giving advice to others on overwintering who have not yet overwintered a colony and stuff like that.


----------



## dsegrest

dingo983 said:


> PLEASE! If you are a 2 or 3 year beekeeper who is religious militant of the treatment free cult or not....STOP giving advice to new beekeepers like you have 50 years experience. Just because you read Michael Bush's or Randy Oliver's website, does not give you the right or knowledge to impersonate or give information, without disclaimer (example: hey, I've only been doing this for 3 years, but this is what I do) leading new beekeepers into failure while driving experienced beekeepers into the shadows due to the frustration of dealing with your ego and insatiable desire to be recognized. Also don't start a beekeeping instructional youtube page with your brand new, bleach snow white bee suit and your 6 shiny, freshly painted hives in your back yard and preach to me how your treatment free "survivor stock" is far superior to anything out there. Catching swarms and putting them in a box and using theories from 5th grade science class on Darwinism does NOT make you a pioneer in the hobby or industry, you are barely B.S.ing your way through the video while making a fool out of yourself.......I think I covered it all....if not, insert a run on sentence rant of your own below.
> 
> P.S. Nothing against treatment free beekeepers with more than 2 - 3 years who understand how to create queens of exceptional stock and not just shake a swarm off a branch and call them "survivor stock"


Why don't you tell us how you really feel?


----------



## dsegrest

I'm a new beekeeper (2 years). I am a REALTOR for 30 years. I learned early on in my real estate career that there are people who have been in the business for 2 or 3 years that have 2 or 3 year's experience. There are others who have been in the business for 20 years and have 1 year's experience 20 times.


----------



## Nabber86

Also please remember that post count is not proportional to experience.


----------



## enjambres

One of the most frustrating aspects of being a new beekeeper is endlessly trying to sort out the good, reliable advice and ideas from the BS. Not meaning Beesource, but meaning the real organic, effluent, BS. 

Enj.


----------



## CessnaGirl

Nabber86 said:


> Also please remember that post count is not proportional to experience.


Ah, yup. OK, now that you bee-otched slapped the newbies, hope you feel better. If beeks have done their due diligence, as JTGaraas stated, they would know they have to pick and choose advise, especially taking into account the location of the poster.


----------



## shinbone

dingo983 said:


> PLEASE! If you are a 2 or 3 year beekeeper who is religious militant of the treatment free cult or not....STOP giving advice to new beekeepers like you have 50 years experience. Just because you read Michael Bush's or Randy Oliver's website, does not give you the right or knowledge to impersonate or give information, without disclaimer (example: hey, I've only been doing this for 3 years, but this is what I do) leading new beekeepers into failure while driving experienced beekeepers into the shadows due to the frustration of dealing with your ego and insatiable desire to be recognized. Also don't start a beekeeping instructional youtube page with your brand new, bleach snow white bee suit and your 6 shiny, freshly painted hives in your back yard and preach to me how your treatment free "survivor stock" is far superior to anything out there. Catching swarms and putting them in a box and using theories from 5th grade science class on Darwinism does NOT make you a pioneer in the hobby or industry, you are barely B.S.ing your way through the video while making a fool out of yourself"


A
MEN


----------



## imthegrumpyone

:applause: Yow! the same thing I've been thinking for the last year and a half but didn't want to ruffle feathers, ( that's easy to do now a days ) It took a while to see just how many "experienced" bee keepers with 2013-2014 join dates giving advise like there's no tomorrow, this is my first year, I'll ask for advise, I'll not give any, for I :kn: yet, maybe in 10-15 years or so.


----------



## bevy's honeybees

I'd like to know what video op is referring to. 
Does not the op sound like censorship? I personally learn and enjoy hearing from all aspects of beekeeping. That's why I'm here.

With my first hive I wanted to be as treatment free as possible (I use BT for wax moths, organic tx). I didn't know it was possible til I heard about Michael Bush practices. Our club president at the time I started beekeeping would have education sessions taken from Michael's books. The Pres did not teach TF, he chose other things from Michael's writings. But that's where I started looking into his writings further and went tf and foundation free the following year. Michael's site is how I found Beesource.


----------



## waynesgarden

bevy's honeybees said:


> Does not the op sound like censorship?


No. No one is preventing anyone, through force or coercion, from saying what they want, posting what they want, making videos or preventing any form of communication by anyone.

Any instant-expert is free to post their vast, month-old wealth of knowledge here. Asking them to consider the possibility that their total lack of experience might suggest that they may not know their butt from a hole in the ground is not unreasonable.

Wayne


----------



## beeware10

speaking of ace two yrs ago he knew nothing about bees. now he knows twice as much and giving advice. over 9000 posts must make him an expert. lol


----------



## Tim KS

dingo983 said:


> PLEASE! If you are a 2 or 3 year beekeeper who is religious militant of the treatment free cult or not....STOP giving advice to new beekeepers like you have 50 years experience. Just because you read Michael Bush's or Randy Oliver's website, does not give you the right or knowledge to impersonate or give information, without disclaimer (example: hey, I've only been doing this for 3 years, but this is what I do) leading new beekeepers into failure while driving experienced beekeepers into the shadows due to the frustration of dealing with your ego and insatiable desire to be recognized. Also don't start a beekeeping instructional youtube page with your brand new, bleach snow white bee suit and your 6 shiny, freshly painted hives in your back yard and preach to me how your treatment free "survivor stock" is far superior to anything out there. Catching swarms and putting them in a box and using theories from 5th grade science class on Darwinism does NOT make you a pioneer in the hobby or industry, you are barely B.S.ing your way through the video while making a fool out of yourself.......I think I covered it all....if not, insert a run on sentence rant of your own below.
> 
> P.S. Nothing against treatment free beekeepers with more than 2 - 3 years who understand how to create queens of exceptional stock and not just shake a swarm off a branch and call them "survivor stock"


I'm a beek of less than a year, and I've given my opinion on some minor questions. I do expect people to realize that I'm new and to NOT take my opinion as cold hard fact......I don't do that even with Mr. Bush's advice or Mr. Palmer's advice either. 

When I first began asking questions on this forum, I was surprised at the variations in the answers received. Therefore, when I ask a question, I weigh the answers given, and then choose what I think will work for me using the common sense bestowed on me from above.

I consider beekeeping to be a continuous learning experience that can change almost daily for any number of reasons. Using one's mind is what it's all about. :banana:


----------



## Nabber86

CessnaGirl said:


> Ah, yup. OK, now that you bee-otched slapped the newbies, hope you feel better. If beeks have done their due diligence, as JTGaraas stated, they would know they have to pick and choose advise, especially taking into account the location of the poster.


Say what? How did I slap the newbies?


----------



## cheezer32

I don't post very much, but here is the problem I have with the treatment vs treatment free debate and the new member advise.

1. If you treat aparently that's the only way to do things.
2. If your treatment free aparently there's 500 other "treatment free" things your have to do to keep bees alive; ie wrap, mite counts, the million wintering "tricks", screened bottoms, etc etc the "list" (and don't critisice me for natural vs treatment free vs that's not a treatment here, I'm generalizing.)
3. There's the commercial treatment way vs the hobby treatment way vs the treatment free hobby way vs the (few mind you) treatment free commercial way vs the I just have a hive a tree in my backyard way.
4. There's the well you don't run your hives for honey way vs the I just want to help the garden way vs everything else.

You guys get the point I'm making, there are obviously different things needed for different scenarios ( as with everything in life) and to be honest, in large part I don't hear many different percentages for losses from TF beekeeper as I do treatment beekeepers. 

If a commercial guy treat because that's what dad did, and that's what's working, why fix what isn't broke? If the guy down the road has success being TF why would he fix what isn't broke?

I think more beekeepers are to blame for dead bees than chemicals, mites, winter, and starvation combined. ( gonna catch some flak for that one) So personally I'm tired of both sides of the fence. I think the problem lies with people doing to much to there hives, TF and T, just leave them be bees.

The only thing that matters is what you want, I dump my bees in a box, and then don't even look at the hive for months, my bees are alive. That's what I want bees, because that's what I sell. I don't treat or do anything special to my hives, but there are many locally that do, that's A ok to, they get what they want from there hives.


----------



## peterloringborst

> I learned early on in my real estate career that there are people who have been in the business for 2 or 3 years that have 2 or 3 year's experience. There are others who have been in the business for 20 years and have 1 year's experience 20 times.


Hey, that's priceless. I may use that one from time to time


----------



## CessnaGirl

Nabber86 said:


> Say what? How did I slap the newbies?


Hahahaha! Sorry it wasn't clear. I was agreeing with your post. The slapping comment was regarding the original post. :doh:


----------



## BMAC

cheezer32 said:


> I think more beekeepers are to blame for dead bees than chemicals, mites, winter, and starvation combined. ( gonna catch some flak for that one) So personally I'm tired of both sides of the fence. I think the problem lies with people doing to much to there hives, TF and T, just leave them be bees.


:applause:

many times dead bees = crappy beekeeping!


----------



## Nabber86

CessnaGirl said:


> Hahahaha! Sorry it wasn't clear. I was agreeing with your post. The slapping comment was regarding the original post. :doh:


I thought so. 

My post was regarding people in Utica who have 9,615 post as of 1:17 pm today


----------



## shinbone

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...t-Keyboard-Beekeepers-quot&highlight=keyboard


----------



## HungryBear

Nabber86 said:


> Also please remember that post count is not proportional to experience.


This is also true with how many hives one has. Just because they have 50 or 1000, dont mean they are an expert.

This is also true with if they were gloves or not, just because to dont or do, dont make you an expert.

I cant tell you how many times a new beekeeper thinks the most experienced person in the room is the one with the most hives or the one who wear's the least working them. You can know a lot and wear a full suit or work in shorts and no veil, that is just your comfort level.


----------



## cerezha

dsegrest said:


> I'm a new beekeeper (2 years). I am a REALTOR for 30 years. I learned early on in my real estate career that there are people who have been in the business for 2 or 3 years that have 2 or 3 year's experience. There are others who have been in the business for 20 years and have 1 year's experience 20 times.


I really do not know how you measure "experience" - the speed of learning is different for different people/situation. For hobbyist, 2-3 years experience is quite substantial. For professional - it is reasonable also. At the college level - 2-3 years professional experience sounded good. At university level, 30 years experience is nothing, you are outdated , you need to retire and change the subject (bees may be?). I do not believe that one can progressively learn on very same subject for 20 years. For 5-7 years - may be, thereafter - it is a saturation, plateau. At beesource I do not observe the correlation between years of expertise, number of posts, smartness, ability to help others, manners, politeness, ability to dialog etc. I observed that in many cases, suggestions of 2-3 year bee learners are good because they are in the process of learning and open to share their findings with others. Knowledge and expertise/experience are different things. I am a hobbyist and honestly have no respect to "experience." My position on it is that beekeeping in US is in crisis now and we need fresh brains, new ideas to invent new approaches to mitigate existing problems. This "backyard," "backward" bee-keeping, TF, TBH you name it - is all about approaches to develop beekeeping techniques. During this process, people made mistakes and learn from them. It is creative process. This process must continue. Nothing personal!


----------



## Mbeck

Having limited experience I try to walk the fine line by participating in the forum offering thoughts, ideas and experiences without the suggestion that it's my post are of any particular value. I'm sure I often fall short.

Anyone with access to a computor can post here. They can even sound smart, experienced etc.if they can use google decently. 

I can answer any question you may have about almond pollination even tell you where to have coffee while you are there. I've never seen an almond tree.

Even the guys that have run 1000's of hives for years post their advice for free and you know what they say about free advice!


----------



## justin

a person is responsible for the advise they take, especially from the internet. it's easy to find information and advise that confirms what we want to believe, but that is not usually the right answer. a good beekeeper will have success with most schools of thought, an inexperienced beekeeper will struggle even using all the tricks. for me beekeeping has not been instinctive, but my original expectations were not very reasonable.


----------



## Ian

Mbeck said:


> and you know what they say about free advice!


take every penny of it! lol


----------



## Mbeck

Ian said:


> take every penny of it! lol


I was think more along the lines of "you get what you pay for" or Free advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but don't like it.


----------



## dingo983

My intent with the focused, angered humor was to have these brand new "experts" take a look in the mirror and ask themselves if they are really helping or just trying to reach some assumed level of recognition. Before this post I was having a discussion (in a different forum) with a new beekeeper who asked why his hive had spotty brood and was dying off. I asked if he treated for mites or did a mite count. The individual stated he wanted to be treatment free. I said ok, but you can probably count that hive as a loss then. That is when out of no where I was verbally bashed in the head by a "expert" that typed paragraph after paragraph after paragraph after paragraph of why TF is the way to go, what I am doing wrong, how to raise survivor stock, etc. So I'm like, who is this clown? I follow some of several links he uses to substantiate his royal awesomness, from facebook to youtube to instagram to google+, and you can tell with a few years experience that the guy is new to this. Plus, when visible, his accounts had start dates of 2012. The info he gives is spotty and basic, he is misleading and leaving important information out. Anyway. I knew it was totally futile to continue the discussion since I would politely agree with his good info and the goals he was shooting for, but he would still act defensive as if I were attacking his ideas. At that point I just deleted myself from that small forum since he had apparently built his base of operations there and was defending his territory to the death.
I don't want censorship. I would like to see a self-awareness in the level of experience and competence one holds. I am just getting into my 5th year. I just started experimenting with different methods of making my own queens. I am sure no one would appreciate it if I started giving advice on every queen grafting thread that comes up when the extent of my knowledge is youtube videos, 2 books and no hands on. Now if you want to know at what temperatures in the desert heat I have lost hives and different methods of providing shade that holds up to monsoon winds, I'm pretty good at that.
Although it is frustratingly entertaining to watch his videos, I am not going to outs this clown. I'm sure it won't be long before he is doing videos on how to install packages to replace the hives he lost from his lack of knowledge.
Thanks for the vent session.


----------



## Bkwoodsbees

Warning..I am in my first year. Lol...Speaking for myself, prior to taking the plunge I read several books and took a beginner bee course. I had a lot of questions and the frustrating thing was the answers. I wanted 1 clear answer. I now realize why so many answers and if it works today it may not work tomorrow. I appreciate the information I receive here but I do try and filter it as best as I can.


----------



## jcolon

Yes dear. 



dingo983 said:


> PLEASE! If you are a 2 or 3 year beekeeper who is religious militant of the treatment free cult or not....STOP giving advice to new beekeepers like you have 50 years experience. Just because you read Michael Bush's or Randy Oliver's website, does not give you the right or knowledge to impersonate or give information, without disclaimer (example: hey, I've only been doing this for 3 years, but this is what I do) leading new beekeepers into failure while driving experienced beekeepers into the shadows due to the frustration of dealing with your ego and insatiable desire to be recognized. Also don't start a beekeeping instructional youtube page with your brand new, bleach snow white bee suit and your 6 shiny, freshly painted hives in your back yard and preach to me how your treatment free "survivor stock" is far superior to anything out there. Catching swarms and putting them in a box and using theories from 5th grade science class on Darwinism does NOT make you a pioneer in the hobby or industry, you are barely B.S.ing your way through the video while making a fool out of yourself.......I think I covered it all....if not, insert a run on sentence rant of your own below.
> 
> P.S. Nothing against treatment free beekeepers with more than 2 - 3 years who understand how to create queens of exceptional stock and not just shake a swarm off a branch and call them "survivor stock"


----------



## kingd

Bkwoodsbees said:


> Warning..I am in my first year. Lol...Speaking for myself, prior to taking the plunge I read several books and took a beginner bee course. I had a lot of questions and the frustrating thing was the answers. I wanted 1 clear answer. I now realize why so many answers and if it works today it may not work tomorrow. I appreciate the information I receive here but I do try and filter it as best as I can.


 Same here. The thing I see here are the questions might be the same but the answers are always changing.


----------



## peterloringborst

> I really do not know how you measure "experience" - the speed of learning is different for different people/situation.


Most things in life have to be learned the hard way. Experience shows in subtle ways. You may a great driver in your home town, on familiar roads, in your own car. But put into rush hour traffic in NYC, or in an unfamiliar vehicle, and we'll see how you do. Or maybe you have had the experience where she said: "New at this, are you?" You don't know what experience you lack, until you realize you don't have it.


----------



## CessnaGirl

peterloringborst said:


> Most things in life have to be learned the hard way. Experience shows in subtle ways. You may a great driver in your home town, on familiar roads, in your own car. But put into rush hour traffic in NYC, or in an unfamiliar vehicle, and we'll see how you do. Or maybe you have had the experience where she said: "New at this, are you?" You don't what experience you lack, until you realize you don't have it.


Well said. As my flight instructor used to say, "You don't know what you don't know," or as to an old timer's expert experience, "He's forgotten more than I will ever know." And, I must say, he is a brilliant man, a true (and tested) genius with many talents - he is scared of bees, though. It's made me tread lightly in respect to others' most experienced opinions.


----------



## peterloringborst

Whoops. Should be 
You don't _know_ what experience you lack, until you realize you don't have it.


----------



## snl

peterloringborst said:


> Whoops. Should be
> You don't _know_ what experience you lack, until you realize you don't have it.


Even then, you will not know what experience you do lack.....because if you did, you'd have done that in the first place!


----------



## Santa Caras

dingo983 said:


> PLEASE! If you are a 2 or 3 year beekeeper who is religious militant of the treatment free cult or not....STOP giving advice to new beekeepers like you have 50 years experience.
> P.S. Nothing against treatment free beekeepers with more than 2 - 3 years who understand how to create queens of exceptional stock and not just shake a swarm off a branch and call them "survivor stock"


At this point, I felt like a 5yr old that had been slapped down and told to shut up and not to speak, that your betters are having a conversation.



dingo983 said:


> My intent with the focused, angered humor ........Thanks for the vent session.


Now, after this much enlightening 2nd post by Dingo....I can fully understand his contained frustration. As a first year beek, I do try to post ONLY on those that I'm semi-familar with (ants, SHB, doing a split wrong, moving a hive.....basic stuff). I read but try not post on AFB, EFB, GMO, TF, Commercial Beeking, Queen rearing....all the stuff you need at least 4-8 yrs experience min.....and none of which I know diddly-squat about. Nothing po's me more in life than to have someone ask a question and I respond with what I think is the answer and they go "NO... uh-huhh.... no way!!!" (picture 4th of July fireworks going off in my head at that point!) 
This has turned out to be a good posting. Good read for opinions without 110 diffrent answers to one question.


----------



## snl

I just wish new members would search before asking their questions. So much of what is being asked has already been discussed.........ad nauseam! You get "I don't have time or want to search thru posts, so I'll just ask..........." Sometimes you just don't take the time to answer someone who won't take the time to do a little research................


----------



## peterloringborst

> For years I've hypothesized that there is a direct correlation with apis mellifera and GMO corn being linked to CCD just as much as human diseases could be linked as well. Oh, never mind! I'm a 2nd year, it doesn't matter, my opinion doesn't count.


Two years of experience as a beekeeper is not much, that's true. But you have no experience as a scientist. Anyone can propose a connection such as the connection between sunspots and CCD or whatever. Having absolutely no evidence to support your case makes it completely worthless. 

Do you even know what CCD is? And do you realize that bees have been _dying off in regions where there is no corn?_ For that matter, can you tell the difference between GMO corn and non-GMO corn? Do you even know what the difference is? 

Opinions are a dime a dozen. Anyone can have one. People have spent real time and effort looking into these matters. Do you equate your random opinions with the conclusions of real researchers? 

If hard won knowledge is worth no more than every Joe's opinion, might as well close the schools, libraries, and all the rest of it. Waste of money, let's go watch how-to videos on youtube.


----------



## the kid

snl said:


> I just wish new members would search before asking their questions. So much of what is being asked has already been discussed.........ad nauseam! You get "I don't have time or want to search thru posts, so I'll just ask..........." Sometimes you just don't take the time to answer someone who won't take the time to do a little research................


some are real easy to search ,,, try a search for queen rearing you only get 20 pages with any post that has the word queen in it

or try nucs 20 pages here is one that comes up and you will get all the info you will ever want about nucs Tax Numbers and accouting

my point is that doing a search for things is not all that easy as you might think .. the point I want to say is you can spend weeks looking and find nothing out


----------



## cerezha

I was under impression that it is not only place for questions (and sometime answers), but for communication, share ideas etc. By the way, I am too lazy to figure out how to use "search" function at beesource. I am using google instead. It works sometime.


----------



## FollowtheHoney

Honestly, I think we all bring enough life experience to be entitled to an opinion. 
If you don't like a question, move on. I like the answers given by newer beekeepers because they tend to be on a more familiar scale and experiment more. I know I am going to, already have made mistakes, I hope I learn quickly and don't harm too many bees. 
If this forum is an elite club for only the most experienced beekeepers put it in the rules so we newbees know.


----------



## scorpionmain

snl said:


> I just wish new members would search before asking their questions. So much of what is being asked has already been discussed.........ad nauseam! You get "I don't have time or want to search thru posts, so I'll just ask..........." Sometimes you just don't take the time to answer someone who won't take the time to do a little research................


I don't mind people asking questions.
Yeah, probably everything has been asked or discussed at one time or another but this would be a dead forum if no new threads were started.
Discussion is good for this forum even if it has been said before.


----------



## marshmasterpat

peterloringborst said:


> Do you even know what CCD is? And do you realize that bees have been _dying off in regions where there is no corn?_ For that matter, can you tell the difference between GMO corn and non-GMO corn? Do you even know what the difference is? QUOTE]
> 
> Even more telling is the variation in hive losses percentages across the country. If CCD was linked to just one cause, then with my poor biological background it would seem the rates would be more equal. But from apiaries with 80% to ones with 15% something is amiss.
> 
> On a side note, there is a lot of poor advice given in all fields from all levels of experience. Example: My house was built by someone that was building houses for 25+ years, but not on these soils. So what worked where he learned and honed his trade caused my slab to crack with significant structural repairs (out of my pocket). Anyone with 25 years is general considered well above novice. But the situation changed... new soils and the way they react to regular rainfall.
> 
> Well we have the famous mites appearing and from a biological standpoint the introduction of a parasite or invasive specie into a biological ecosystem not used to dealing with it can reset the scale. Could that be so with bees. So old methods might not be the best method any more.
> 
> As I told two very experienced posted here when I first started asking my dumb questions. "I would rather be mislead by good sounding advice from a small group of experts rather than stumbling in the dark forest lost due to conflicting advice from a huge group."
> 
> Is in Jim that keeps saying "All Bee Keeping is local"?


----------



## DanielD

scorpionmain said:


> I don't mind people asking questions.
> Yeah, probably everything has been asked or discussed at one time or another but this would be a dead forum if no new threads were started.
> Discussion is good for this forum even if it has been said before.


That's what I was thinking. If someone can't handle a particular simple question, it probably isn't meant for you to answer. There's all kinds here, which makes it more interesting. The one thing that concerns me here are the posts that attempt to belittle someone else with a different opinion or experience level. This is meant to be a helping forum, and it doesn't help to intimidate new members from asking simple questions or adding their limited experience to the mix. 

I do enjoy reading answers from those of you who have the patience and are kind to us simpletons and just want to help. Even someone who gives stray advice can be shown kindness with gentle correction too. If you don't have it in you to be helpful to someone's question, you shouldn't get involved.


----------



## Deepsouth

I agree and disagree. There is nothing wrong with a newbee giving advice if their advice is from their real life experience and not something they read from Michael bushes website. 
Also you say you need at least 2 or 3 years experience to give good advice. Well I think thats the worst to give advice. They know just enough to make them more dangerous.
And third, some beekeepers that lets say have 10 plus years experience think they now it all and their way is the only way.

To some it up, there is alot of good advice on here and more bad advice on here. Use your best judgment to figure which is which.


----------



## thehackleguy

Deepsouth said:


> To some it up, there is alot of good advice on here and more bad advice on here. Use your best judgment to figure which is which.


I agree with this, if I give any advice I try to point the person to where it came from so they can look at the source. I also normally give the "it's my first year" disclaimer. 

But I do think it is *insane* to bash anyone, I know not everyone agrees but that don't make them wrong in their situation. Hell most "experienced experts" on this forum get into arguments....that is part of the fun of reading them


----------



## Solomon Parker

Well, it's kinda hard to get any experienced TF beekeepers to hang around here, so I guess the youngins is all you gots to work with.


----------



## ruthiesbees

FollowtheHoney said:


> Honestly, I think we all bring enough life experience to be entitled to an opinion.
> If you don't like a question, move on. I like the answers given by newer beekeepers because they tend to be on a more familiar scale and experiment more. I know I am going to, already have made mistakes, I hope I learn quickly and don't harm too many bees.
> If this forum is an elite club for only the most experienced beekeepers put it in the rules so we newbees know.


I like the way you think.


----------



## Ian

thehackleguy said:


> Hell most "experienced experts" on this forum get into arguments....that is part of the fun of reading them


argument, discussion, all in context, lol


----------



## NasalSponge

There will never be a consensus among beekeepers, beekeeping if far to subjective and there are far to many ways to accomplish it. I do not despise the threads of new beekeepers but the frustration is how many have been given bad info and repeat it as gospel. One needs to gain the experience themselves and even this can be misleading because bees love to deviate from the norms of bee behavior from time to time. I have learned that when I present a practice I share in the format of....."This is the way I do it." not "this is the only way to do it." been spanked too many times. 8)


----------



## south MS rookie

In my short time on beesource I have learned why some of y'all are so good with bees. It's because you can't stand humans. I will continue to visit this forum because it is very informative. It's also very entertaining to read about the delicate geniuses with their panties bunched up.


----------



## Bees of SC

If you are making a post, don't say" I am to lazy to look it up" --LAZY, bad.. If you are lazy you won't make it as a beekeeper.. JMO 
5 years and still learning from the oldies and newbees but NOT the lazy ones.==Thank You all


----------



## Bees of SC

south MS rookie==You may bee new but YOU are right==JMO


----------



## Hops Brewster

opcorn:


----------



## jbeshearse

I am an expert.... lol :ws:


----------



## ShannonS

Well, at the end of the day one thing holds true and will never sway nor be bad advice. My grandfather has always told all us grand kids that he could tell us where he's been and what he's gone through, but as humans we just can't learn from another man/woman's experience because we have to find out for ourselves. At the end of the day, right or wrong hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. The problem is that 9 out of 10 people use about 10% of the advice given and toss the rest into the wind and out of spite we let the human side of us take us in the wrong direction just out of curiosity or simply out of being hard headed and get results we didn't want. Then we look back and see that if we had just took the advice from past experience, no matter how young or how old, no matter the level of experience there is always something to be learned. Advice given from whoever should be researched to the best of your ability and means that you have available to you and make the choice you can from it. Now I'm new to beekeeping with my own hives but have grown up around bees my whole life. That doesn't make me any more experienced than a new keeper, just as our days change from day to day so does the method of raising healthy bees simply because we we are altering the natural habitat and way of life of a bee into a human made world. Bees are going to react differently for every single person, from hive to hive, geographical location to geographical location and every other unnatural atmosphere we put them in. At the end of the day I feel the communication shared by younger keepers brings a since of comfort to another young keeper just as a child being around another child of similar age is less intimidating instead of being in the middle of a bunch of grown ups and try to fit into their conversation, doesn't work out very well simply because you don't think on their level. Moral of the story, there's nothing wrong with anyone sharing their hindsight as long as it's not giving direct instruction to be used or put into action. The real life stories shared from young keepers should simply be put into perspective by a more experienced individual to accommodate the need for knowledge and wisdom of a given situation. I appreciate every thought and tid bit given on these forums because it gives validation confirmation to the methods I choose to use, is that the right way. Dunno, I'll find out soon enough though. This is my first year working my own hives and have 30 of them running strong and healthy simply due to conversation in these forums. Just my opinion, not giving advice here...  Just sayin


----------



## ShannonS

Anyone have any good advice on raising healthy bees? haha.. Sorry, couldn't help my self...


----------



## squarepeg

nice post shannon. welcome to the forum.


----------



## ShannonS

Thank you squarepeg, I've really enjoyed this forum site. A lot of good reading and years of wisdom on here to absorb.


----------



## j.kuder

snl said:


> I just wish new members would search before asking their questions. So much of what is being asked has already been discussed.........ad nauseam! You get "I don't have time or want to search thru posts, so I'll just ask..........." Sometimes you just don't take the time to answer someone who won't take the time to do a little research................


this would be a very small forum if it weren't for repeat questions with only the so called experts having peeing contests all the time. the new people can just go read a book or watch a video and they won't have any need for you experts. hey Barry how about a section for experts only. can you imagine what that would look like.


----------



## Daniel Y

snl said:


> " Sometimes you just don't take the time to answer someone who won't take the time to do a little research................


If what I am interested in is researching then I would use sources suitable for that. Not this group. This group is for socializing. And that includes having the same certain conversations over and over. It includes having discussions with new as well as longer time beekeepers.

Nobody tells me when my experience is worth sharing. If it annoys you own up to your own choices and realize you very likely do not make choices that suit you well. You may want to work on that. you will enjoy life more. I do not do, what I do, to please you. That is your job.

In the first two years I visited this group I was told to read books among other things. I was even given specific books to read. I woudl then often answer questions from what I had read. several times, Often in fact I would be criticized for answering questions when I has so little experience. The very people that recommended I do all that reading did not even recognize it when it was put in a post. So I asked them to correct whatever they saw wrong in what I had posted. not once was anyone able to make a correction. In one instance the offended person outright admitted there offense was about nothing more than they thought I had not been a beekeeper long enough. Even though I had been a beekeeper long enough to know and share more than they had.

I know nothing about another persons ability to understand or follow advice. So I do not agree that because I post how I do things makes me responsible for them trying it and failing. The choice to follow any advice is theirs. and the responsibility for the outcome is on them. There are those that should never follow any advice offered by anyone. they are not capable of doing so. Often they simply pick some advice to follow for no other reason than to have someone to blame when they fail.


----------



## lazy shooter

Lucky me, I'm into my fourth year and therefore able to give advice without being ill thought of by internet peers of which I know nothing. My thinking is that we all have a BS meter that we filter information through. I'm a petroleum engineer with 49 years of experience, and I have received some good ideas from neophytes. Having said that, I keep a set of names in my cell phone to call for second opinions on my problems, and they are not new comers. But I have learned from beginners, so heres my take, read and listen and FILTER. 

This thread is truly a wake up on the wrong side of the bed thing.


----------



## j.kuder

I've said it before if you can't offer anything constructive then shut up nobody is forcing you to read or respond to the same old questions. back to the original post when i'm looking for advice i always check the profile of anybody that's giving advice. people can have a few years experience and sound like they been doin it for a lifetime. but some of those people do have information worth listening to and i know it sounds absurd but even the experts might possibly learn somthing new. i'm 57 years old and i learn somthin new every day my education dosen't end untill i'm dead. when i offer input it is my observation or my limited experience if you like or agree with my input great if not move on. now go check my profile so you know weather i'm an idiot.


----------



## sqkcrk

j.kuder said:


> weather i'm an idiot.


Nope, not an idiot ... . I agree w/ what you wrote and I hope I do like you and learn things new and anew. It often takes experiencing something a number of time before learning what is being taught.


----------



## Barry

j.kuder said:


> hey Barry how about a section for experts only. can you imagine what that would look like.


I wonder who would be the first to post in such a forum?


----------



## sqkcrk

ShannonS said:


> Anyone have any good advice on raising healthy bees? haha.. Sorry, couldn't help my self...


Sure. Find some, put them in a box, and learn from them. Best wishes.


----------



## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> I wonder who would be the first to post in such a forum?


It wouldn't take long before it would get polluted by some nonexpert asking a question. Even if you set it up like Tailgater. People don't seem to stay in their own pastures. 

It was asked over on Facebook, "Why would someone not interested in being (something I won't mention) even want to be in this group?" Kinda reminded me of how it used to be asked why an African American would want to be part of a Country Club.

How's that for going t: ?


----------



## j.kuder

Barry said:


> I wonder who would be the first to post in such a forum?


 they don't speak english you gota be an expert to understand them. i used to go to a convenience store where people would ignore the no parking sign and park behind ya making it very hard to back out so i thought they should change that sign to read Parking For Idiots Only. that would solve that problem. maybe birds of a feather would flock together.


----------



## sqkcrk

People don't reads signs.

"But Officer, I'm illiterate. That's my handicap."


----------



## j.kuder

sqkcrk said:


> People don't reads signs.


your right about that but nobody wants to label themselves an idiot but everybody wants to be an expert


----------



## sqkcrk

Welllll, I'm not so sure about that. But maybe you are the expert on experts. :scratch:


----------



## Dave Burrup

EXPERT Ex= has been spert= drip under pressure


----------



## sqkcrk

:lpf::thumbsup:opcorn::no::banana::wiener:


----------



## TxGypsy

One of the things I tell my students early on is to watch youtube videos with a huge chunk of salt tucked into their cheek because a grain of salt won't do it! Lots and lots of beginners like to make videos. If it appears in print or on video it MUST be true! I've actually had to stop a lesson, turn to the student and tell them that if they already know everything because they have read such and such book that there is no reason for them to waste their time and mine on an in person lesson. 

Speaking of books. Look to see where the author has been keeping bees! I'm in the south and it seems like a lot of books are written by northern beekeepers. Guess they have more time to write while it's snowing outside  A lot of what they write about doesn't apply to southern beeks.

Small comment on the TF. In order to be really successful...rather than just treating with stuff all the time that is considered organic...you must truly study bees. I've been an avid student of bees for 23 years. They are still teaching me stuff. I have failed many times in order to get to the level of knowledge I am at now. I have very high survival and thrive rates, but it wasn't always this way.

“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.” 
― Thomas A. Edison


----------



## Andrew Dewey

Barry said:


> I wonder who would be the first to post in such a forum?


Ace!


----------



## Troutsqueezer

I'll take the OP up on the offer to rant:

When I was working for a living I used computers extensively for design and modeling of electrical behavior WRT chip design. I learned early on that no matter how much I thought I knew, there was always something to learn from everybody, no matter what their experience level. Many times as I looked over the shoulders of newbies, clicking away at their keyboards, manipulating data and files, I saw them do something in a manner that made me question myself as to why I hadn't thought of doing it that way years ago.

Beekeeping is no different. The minute you label yourself as an "expert" and figure that you don't need to hear any advice from someone new at it, you automatically disqualify yourself as an expert, IMO. True experts know better than to assume they know it all because they subscribe to the adage that the more you know about something, the more you know you don't know. I see a lot of "experts" on here dispensing knowledge like beekeeping is an exact science when it's anything but. Sorry, but the attitude in the original post goes against the basic fora environment where all opinions are welcome, right or wrong, badly worded or written like Shakespeare. Stupid YouTube videos outnumber those with value by about 1,000 to 1, it's the nature of the beast. Everybody gets a say. You sort out the good from the bad, that's your job if you want to participate. It's also what makes it enjoyable.


----------



## angel

Some forums have ratings for the user or thread if someone is asking a question and the "best" answer gets a rating. Just saying...


----------



## Barry

This thread has 3 stars.


----------



## jbeshearse

Troutsqueezer;1174944Sorry said:


> Unfortunately, a lot of times the informative and true advice gets buried under the avalanche of poor and ill-conceived naive input wanting to help. Or worse, self-proclaimed experts claiming their ways are the best practice. We all want to share our ideas, but sometimes we tend to forget that they are untested ideas and not established practice.
> 
> A few good nuggets are often buried under a mountain of slag.
> 
> That said, if it comes from Michael Bush, Jim Lyons or Michael Palmer, and a few others, you need to pay close attention. (there are many others I pay close attention to, but those are a few sure things....)


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Yes, but... on the Internet, everybody is an expert and there's nothing anyone can do to change that. As a reader, you must decide who's right and who's wrong. You cannot dictate to others how to post, that's against the rules. Most men, when they look in the mirror, think they are somewhat handsome, regardless of reality. As far as I know, I am probably the only one on here who is truly handsome.


----------



## sqkcrk

Troutsqueezer said:


> The minute you label yourself as an "expert"


Is there really anyone around here w/ the chutzpa to label themselves an expert? No one I know.


----------



## ShannonS

I think I broke that goal this year sqkcrk... On to the next task of building hives on up to1200-1500 by next year and keep rolling to 7000-8000 by year 2020.Setting the bar high but it's absolutely reasonable with effort and a little hard...


----------



## sqkcrk

ShannonS said:


> I think I broke that goal this year sqkcrk... On to the next task of building hives on up to1200-1500 by next year and keep rolling to 7000-8000 by year 2020.Setting the bar high but it's absolutely reasonable with effort and a little hard...


You called yourself an expert? Is that what you are saying?


----------



## Troutsqueezer

sqkcrk said:


> Is there really anyone around here w/ the chutzpa to label themselves an expert? No one I know.


It's implied by the tone of the post. No one would come out and say they are a snob either but it's there for all to see. 

Having a lot of beehives does not an expert make. One gets pretty good at shuffling them around and does learn a thing or two but mostly about that particular apiary as a whole. Even Walt Wright, with his close observations, came up with a number of conclusions that are at best, good guesses.


----------



## Troutsqueezer

>Is there anyone around here with the chutzpah to label themselves an expert?

I guess you don't remember Jim Fischer.


----------



## Honey-4-All

sqkcrk said:


> Is there really anyone around here w/ the chutzpa to label themselves an expert? No one I know.


A loud Bingo to Dingo for starting this thread. Nothing makes me want to explode like an evening spent at a bee meeting with a pile of neophyte experts who haven't a clue about the most simple of bee "rules." In my eyes an expert is one who can encounter all the variabilities of an art and knock off every nuance in any issue tossed at the practitioner without even taking the time to "think" about what to do in every situation. A true bee expert under that definition is very hard to find with all the issues that beset our industry today.


----------



## cerezha

I do not understand: if nobody deserved to be called "expert", than who can answer questions? Newbies are not permitted, "experts" are absent ... everyone must be silent... nonsense
on European bee-forums I am visiting, they have elaborate system to promote the "purity" of the threads: every comment can be rated by others and the rate is visible to everyone; every member is also rated and can get negative marks. Once somebody accumulates enough negative marks, s/he will be punished. The punishment is from 2 week to one year membership suspension. New users also have a probation period - they can not create a personal thread unless they gain some positive marks from the users. First, I was thinking it is draconian rules, but surprisingly, everyone play by rules and forum(s) are very efficient in suppressing any useless activity. The forum(s) are also heavily moderated against any trolling, personal insults etc.


----------



## dbarry

Troutsqueezer said:


> ...they are somewhat handsome, regardless of reality.


However... "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." Red Green


----------



## sqkcrk

Troutsqueezer said:


> >Is there anyone around here with the chutzpah to label themselves an expert?
> 
> I guess you don't remember Jim Fischer.


I do remember Jim Fischer and see his Posts on bee-L. Just deleted one from my e-mail in box just now actually. But he isn't on beesource and doubt he would actually call himself an expert even if he does have the chutzpa.


----------



## sqkcrk

cerezha said:


> I do not understand: if nobody deserved to be called "expert", than who can answer questions? Newbies are not permitted, "experts" are absent ... everyone must be silent... nonsense


Calling someone an expert and them calling themselves an expert are two different things, don't you agree? Were I to call myself an expert I am sure I would have to prove it. Were I to call myself a snob there would probably be very little challenge.


----------



## snl

sqkcrk said:


> Were I to call myself a snob there would probably be very little challenge.


Yup, you're a snob, a nice snob, but still a snob............ :applause:


----------



## sqkcrk

:applause:


----------



## Daniel Y

Barry said:


> I wonder who would be the first to post in such a forum?


This will be very much sideline. But I have actually had some experience with this. a splinter group of a forum decided to form a Guild. It actually had some very difficult requirements to meet o be a member of. Until I and a few others started pointing out that not one of the original founding members had ever passed through those entrance requirements but in fact had been cherry picked by a single person to be members. eventually others looked into it and determined that only 2 out of the 12 actually met the requirements to be members of their own guild. They responded to criticism with "We are to concerned with what outsiders think". You don't here anything from them today. I am not sure they still even exist. One thing that was found among others was that those members had separated themselves from the very reason to have many answers. Sort of like you don't have many answers when you never had a question sort of thing. They also discovered how often all that newbie worthless chatter in fact seeded their responses. Sort of like thinking of something additional to say simply becasue it was brought to mind by some erroneous comment made by another.

So take your knowing it all and go set with a bunch of other know it alls and see how much there is to talk about. That pretty much paints a clear picture. You may quickly realize how much value there is in what you learn when you teach others. It brings to mind the idea, "If you really want to learn something, teach it to someone else."


----------



## Barry

cerezha said:


> they have elaborate system to promote the "purity" of the threads: every comment can be rated by others and the rate is visible to everyone; every member is also rated and can get negative marks. Once somebody accumulates enough negative marks, s/he will be punished.


Just like here! All comments are subject to the entire membership. All members promote thread "purity." If you post a comment from left field, you will "be rated" on it. This all works without an elaborate system. I left a discussion group and started Beesource due to a few deciding what was or wasn't "pure" or suitable for discussion. I rather like this format.


----------



## DanielD

Daniel Y said:


> This will be very much sideline. But I have actually had some experience with this. a splinter group of a forum decided to form a Guild. It actually had some very difficult requirements to meet o be a member of. Until I and a few others started pointing out that not one of the original founding members had ever passed through those entrance requirements but in fact had been cherry picked by a single person to be members. eventually others looked into it and determined that only 2 out of the 12 actually met the requirements to be members of their own guild. They responded to criticism with "We are to concerned with what outsiders think". You don't here anything from them today. I am not sure they still even exist. One thing that was found among others was that those members had separated themselves from the very reason to have many answers. Sort of like you don't have many answers when you never had a question sort of thing. They also discovered how often all that newbie worthless chatter in fact seeded their responses. Sort of like thinking of something additional to say simply becasue it was brought to mind by some erroneous comment made by another.
> 
> So take your knowing it all and go set with a bunch of other know it alls and see how much there is to talk about. That pretty much paints a clear picture. You may quickly realize how much value there is in what you learn when you teach others. It brings to mind the idea, "If you really want to learn something, teach it to someone else."


Good response.

A good way to be a 'self proclaimed expert' is to look down your nose at a novice that tries to help with what they think they know. A genuine expert would also humbly, gently, kindly help that novice understand better.


----------



## Ian

Barry said:


> Just like here! All comments are subject to the entire membership.


Hats off to a nice little community you have established here Barry. Your flock is diverse passionate well informed and civil. How ever you have come to bring all this together, keep up the good work! Cheers

I'm going to vote on this thread rating, 5 stars.


----------



## WesternWilson

I appreciate this thread, having just completed my third season. Each season has brought different mistakes, hope I have learned from them all!

As a new-bee, I read what I can, seek and get lots of advice, and it is really hard to know what is good advice and what is not. I was beguiled by the (very vocal) treatment free wing of my local bee club for a a couple of years...until my hives started dying of Varroasis. So I have changed my mite approach. It has really been a question of learning to observe the bees carefully, and learn from mistakes made. And as a new-bee, you have no experience with different seasons in terms of weather conditions, so this year, a very hot, dry year, I had very different challenges than in earlier, more nectar-abundant years. It demanded a completely different approach, one I will be ready with next time we have a year like this. inch:

One older beekeeper, one whose advice has stood up in the field, told me the learning curve for good beekeeping is really, really steep but that it levels off after 40 years or so!

Beekeeping is not witchcraft, but it does demand good research skills, good critical thinking skills, and the ability to appraise problems and learn from setbacks. And it is expensive....so mistakes hurt. Especially mistakes made based on bad advice from a more experienced beekeeper! 

When asked, I help out new beekeepers as best I can, on my limited base of experience, which is at least better than nothing. Some of them have had appallingly bad advice...so bad it seems malicious. We share experiences, disasters included. When people ask if keeping bees is hard, I tell them keeping bees is easy, keeping them well is quite challenging! 

It is helpful when government apiculture departments and/or clubs have online recommendations for a basic, one size fits all generic approach to beekeeping practice over a season, with some honey production in mind (which is what most of the new beekeepers are shooting for). Mods on alternate approaches or goals ie. making your own nuc colonies to cover off losses or to sell are helpful too. Some advice on our own unusual season here would have been helpful, too. Although there are many variations on how to keep bees, there should, by region, be a fairly straightforward set of practices that can form a standard for new beekeepers to follow. Our local apiculturalist urged me to follow standard practice as per their posted information sheets for 2 or 3 years before trying new ideas out. That was good advice, particularly when posted information is specific and detailed.


----------



## Nabber86

Stop.


[video]http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/510/607/ebe.gif[/video]


----------



## NewbeeInNH

> One older beekeeper, one whose advice has stood up in the field, told me the learning curve for good beekeeping is really, really steep but that it levels off after 40 years or so!


:lpf:

That actually sounds about right. I just finished my 3rd year here and I still don't know what to do next.


----------



## ShannonS

Me an expert, haha far from it. Ive been in heavy industrial electrical work for 20 years. I've seen a lot and been around a lot but continue to learn everyday because I enjoy what I do. I think anyone that labels themselves as experts really lacks the ability to play "in the same sand box with others" and always has to have is own...


----------



## karenarnett

I agree with the initial post. I had been really appreciating this forum as a source of information and advice from experienced beekeepers. However this year I noticed a lot of responses to my posts were from "sophomores" - that is two-year beeks. They asked me the most basic questions about my beekeeping practices. Have to say it put me off of the forum. Where are the experienced beekeepers? Seems like it used to be that any good post requesting advice was answered by seasoned beeks. Where have they gone?


----------



## Keith Jarrett

karenarnett said:


> . Where are the experienced beekeepers?


HEY Jimmy L.... there asking for you again. 

Beesource... great site, Barry has done a great job, nice guy too.


----------



## sqkcrk

karenarnett said:


> Where are the experienced beekeepers? Seems like it used to be that any good post requesting advice was answered by seasoned beeks. Where have they gone?


What? Seriously? Sarcasm doesn't work well in text. There are plenty of experienced beekeepers sharing knowledge on beesource.


----------



## jim lyon

Keith Jarrett said:


> HEY Jimmy L.... there asking for you again.
> 
> Beesource... great site, Barry has done a great job, nice guy too.


Tell her to feed em some Nutra Bee and call me in the morning. 
Ditto on Barry. Nobody is doing Bee Forums better. If there isn't a little spirited debate then he's not doing his job.


----------



## Honey-4-All

karenarnett said:


> Where are the experienced beekeepers? Seems like it used to be that any good post requesting advice was answered by seasoned beeks. Where have they gone?


All the real beeks have been on hiatus because of hive tool syndrome. To much work to be done making a killing with bees to take time to give advice. As the fall shows up all the wise ones will come out of the woodwork. Be patient. Now that Keith is back on board pushing his sub you know the others will show up shortly. Happens ever year more regular than..........


----------



## cerezha

Barry said:


> ...I rather like this format.


 of coarse, because it is your creation. I have to admit, I do not like it, but ... as you can see, I am visiting from time to time. It is fun to read beesource...


----------



## cerezha

sqkcrk said:


> Calling someone an expert and them calling themselves an expert are two different things, don't you agree? Were I to call myself an expert I am sure I would have to prove it. Were I to call myself a snob there would probably be very little challenge.


 Mark, you act like "expert" is a bad word! I would never ever be an "expert" in the bee-field, but I am expert in other area, far from beekeeping and I am proud of that. I do not see why "expert" is bad? I am an expert in MY area, and I am very happy to share my expertise. As for bees - it is such great hobby! I enjoy it every moment


----------



## MJuric

Isn't this the way it is with everything though? I've seen this in every area I've every come in contact with. Guy changes his oil and suddenly he's giving advice on car repair. Guy runs a 5K and suddenly he's an world class coach. 

I suspect that it's human nature on several levels to do this. I also suspect there are two extremes, those that offer advice readily and those that have to have it drug out of them. The former are those of whom you speak and I would bet that they do this with everything they come in contact. OTOH I have often been completely surprised by the depth of knowledge and experience of some people I have known a long time but had no idea that they where experts in certain areas that I "Dabbled" in. 

FWIW this is not just a 2-3 year thing. It's a "What I know must be more then what you know" thing. I can't tell you the number of times I've been told how to make a part by someone who has little or no practical experience in manufacturing. Sometimes it's an engineer, buyer, quality etc etc. Despite being in this business for over 20 years now somehow everyone knows my job better then me 

I also think it's impractical and illogical to disregard such advice JUST because of the source. I typically feel free to correct incorrect advice, but at the same time enjoy contemplating the "New" ideas. On occasion there is actually something "New" from an inexperienced person that is actually very useful because they aren't mired in the "This is how we do things" mentality. 

~Matt


----------



## sqkcrk

cerezha said:


> Mark, you act like "expert" is a bad word!


No, of course not. The word expert isn't a bad word. But it would take a certain amount of hubris for one to call themselves that, don't you think? Like how I feel when someone calls themselves a Master Beekeeper. I almost always think to myself, "Oh yeah?". Being an expert is always best if others label you such. Though I get your point.


----------



## Margot1d

sqkcrk said:


> I do remember Jim Fischer and see his Posts on bee-L. Just deleted one from my e-mail in box just now actually. But he isn't on beesource and doubt he would actually call himself an expert even if he does have the chutzpa.


Jim Fischer is not on Beesource for the very reason this thread was created. I am one of the many people who has gotten hours of free support and training from him. Why anyone would bring his name into this conversation is beyond me.


----------



## sqkcrk

Gee, Margot. You seem to have gotten your shorts in a knot. Did I or someone else say something critical about Jim? He's alright in my book. As much so as anyone. Maybe I read into your reply something you didn't intend?


----------



## sqkcrk

Margot1d said:


> Jim Fischer is not on Beesource for the very reason this thread was created.


Which was what? Why was this Thread created? Has it met the desires of its creator?


----------



## Barry

Margot1d said:


> Jim Fischer is not on Beesource for the very reason this thread was created.


Not true.


----------



## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> Not true.


Which begs a question. Why then?


----------



## Barry

To the forum owner, he threatened to shut the forum down by way of hacking the server/software.


----------



## sqkcrk

So, that's what it takes. No, sorry, that's not something to laugh at or about. Too bad.


----------



## Ian

oh... thats not good.

I always though it was because he did not like debating with beekeepers who were less experienced... which I thought was odd, as he was selling a product into that market at the time.


----------



## Margot1d

Sorry Sqrcrk, my comment was not intended to you even though I quoted you. I regret commenting, I didn't mean to bring up this sort of conversation about Jim. He has done a lot for a lot of people in NYC.


----------



## NewbeeInNH

Sometimes I'll pipe up and try to answer someone's question simply because no one else is doing it, but I usually caveat that with "I'm not an expert but". I hate when people ask questions or have problems and get no responses or only one. I'd rather try to help them problem solve than let them feel unsupported.


----------



## JRG13

Everyone is an expert on the interwebs!


----------



## jdmidwest

dingo983 said:


> PLEASE! If you are a 2 or 3 year beekeeper who is religious militant of the treatment free cult or not....STOP giving advice to new beekeepers like you have 50 years experience. Just because you read Michael Bush's or Randy Oliver's website, does not give you the right or knowledge to impersonate or give information, without disclaimer (example: hey, I've only been doing this for 3 years, but this is what I do) leading new beekeepers into failure while driving experienced beekeepers into the shadows due to the frustration of dealing with your ego and insatiable desire to be recognized. Also don't start a beekeeping instructional youtube page with your brand new, bleach snow white bee suit and your 6 shiny, freshly painted hives in your back yard and preach to me how your treatment free "survivor stock" is far superior to anything out there. Catching swarms and putting them in a box and using theories from 5th grade science class on Darwinism does NOT make you a pioneer in the hobby or industry, you are barely B.S.ing your way through the video while making a fool out of yourself.......I think I covered it all....if not, insert a run on sentence rant of your own below.
> 
> P.S. Nothing against treatment free beekeepers with more than 2 - 3 years who understand how to create queens of exceptional stock and not just shake a swarm off a branch and call them "survivor stock"


So, did you lose a hive to bad advice from the internet? Just wondering what prompted this.


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Margo, you had to have been here. Some of the exchanges with Monsieur Bush were memorable and he is easy to get along with. Mr Fischer was just plain mean to me, for no good reason. Never forgot it. Reminded me of my first wife...


----------



## dsegrest

One of the things I like about bee source is that I can speak up with one of my hare-brained ideas and someone will smack it down before I waste a lot of time, money and bees.


----------



## sqkcrk

I hope you get support when your ideas aren't hare brained.


----------



## Santa Caras

dsegrest said:


> One of the things I like about bee source is that I can speak up with one of my hare-brained ideas and someone will smack it down before I waste a lot of time, money and bees.


LMAO....snort snort :lpf: :applause:

Good one!


----------



## bimbyjim

I've never even felt comfortable calling myself a beekeeper. 

I’m a bee watcher; a student of learning the mysteries of the honeybee. 

I feel like the bees keep me. They keep me happy. The keep me inquisitive. And they keep me confused, which motivates me to keep learning.

The only consistently reliable advice I've gotten from a book comes from A.A. Milne, “You never can tell with bees.”


----------



## mbevanz

A very smart and seasoned man once told me "If you want to work on cars, learn on the starter not the brakes!" I think this fits here somehow.


----------



## sqkcrk

Margot1d said:


> Jim Fischer is not on Beesource for the very reason this thread was created. I am one of the many people who has gotten hours of free support and training from him. Why anyone would bring his name into this conversation is beyond me.


Maybe you should have addressed your Post to Troutsqueezer. He's the one that brought his name up, not me.


----------



## newbury

First of all - I'm new here and just stumbled across this thread but think it's pretty important.
So some comments:


snl said:


> I just wish new members would search before asking their questions. So much of what is being asked has already been discussed.........ad nauseam! You get "I don't have time or want to search thru posts, so I'll just ask..........." Sometimes you just don't take the time to answer someone who won't take the time to do a little research................


Search functions are often pretty poor on most forums. The best I've found is to use google with the format:
_search term_ site:_forum_
example search for mississippi on BS:
mississippi site:http://www.beesource.com/




Daniel Y said:


> This will be very much sideline. But I have actually had some experience with this. a splinter group of a forum decided to form a Guild. It actually had some very difficult requirements to meet o be a member of. Until I and a few others started pointing out that not one of the original founding members had ever passed through those entrance requirements but in fact had been cherry picked by a single person to be members. eventually others looked into it and determined that only 2 out of the 12 actually met the requirements to be members of their own guild. They responded to criticism with "We are to concerned with what outsiders think". <snip>


This "founding fathers" syndrome is frequent. I was one of the founding members of a professional society about 30 years ago. I had been at the right place and the right time. My professional knowledge and credentials met the bare minimum. Today I wouldn't let myself in.



dsegrest said:


> One of the things I like about bee source is that I can speak up with one of my hare-brained ideas and someone will smack it down before I waste a lot of time, money and bees.


Truly a great sentiment. Often us newbees think of something, can't easily find any references and waste a lot of effort only to find there is no discussion of it because of practical matters.

For people new to a forum (like me) it's often difficult to tell the difference between a recognized expert and a post-count madam. 

I've seen people zoom from 0 to several thousand posts in a year, simply because they reply to EVERY thread with a "That's interesting, thanks for posting" or if it's a new member thread "Welcome aboard". I suspect they have set up a hot key for those replies.

So for someone like me it's difficult to discern the recognized experts from other idiots like me with no experience.

Does BS have a "member of the month" or tried something similar? That would be one way of acknowledging recognized experts.


----------



## j.kuder

newbury said:


> First of all - I'm new here and just stumbled across this thread but think it's pretty important.
> So some comments:
> 
> 
> 
> So for someone like me it's difficult to discern the recognized experts from other idiots like me with no experience.
> 
> Does BS have a "member of the month" or tried something similar? That would be one way of acknowledging recognized experts.


yea i've said before check out their profile see how many years experiance. if they bother to list it. the person who started this thread their profile says they have no experiance. there are people on here who act like an expert and give advice and they have minimal experiance. nothin wrong with giving advice but at least list your credentials in your profile.


----------



## crofter

Newbury,
I am doubtful that a useful rating system is an easy thing to have. I have seen attempts that turn out like the "Like" system on pop media. As you mention, volume does often not = quality.

Also posts that appear to be well supported by references are sometimes highly polarized by ideology and if you dig a bit into their search material there appears a pattern of cherry picking.

There is value in reading over old posts and getting to know the players and what makes them tick. Are their story lines consistent and are they hard in pursuit of truth or apparently just like to argue? Is their needle stuck in a groove?


----------



## Oldtimer

Another forum I'm on has a like system, kinda works. But for some people I don't see their rating reflect their true value, a persons worth is not necessarily related to how many likes they have or how many followers on Facebook. Jesus Christ had 12 followers, Adolph Hitler had millions.


----------



## sqkcrk

Oldtimer said:


> Jesus Christ had 12 followers, Adolph Hitler had millions.


Only initially. And debatable. And now that you've brought up Jesus Christ and Hitler that could be the end of the conversation.


----------



## dsegrest

dingo983 said:


> PLEASE! If you are a 2 or 3 year beekeeper who is religious militant of the treatment free cult or not....STOP giving advice to new beekeepers like you have 50 years experience. Just because you read Michael Bush's or Randy Oliver's website, does not give you the right or knowledge to impersonate or give information, without disclaimer (example: hey, I've only been doing this for 3 years, but this is what I do) leading new beekeepers into failure while driving experienced beekeepers into the shadows due to the frustration of dealing with your ego and insatiable desire to be recognized. Also don't start a beekeeping instructional youtube page with your brand new, bleach snow white bee suit and your 6 shiny, freshly painted hives in your back yard and preach to me how your treatment free "survivor stock" is far superior to anything out there. Catching swarms and putting them in a box and using theories from 5th grade science class on Darwinism does NOT make you a pioneer in the hobby or industry, you are barely B.S.ing your way through the video while making a fool out of yourself.......I think I covered it all....if not, insert a run on sentence rant of your own below.
> 
> P.S. Nothing against treatment free beekeepers with more than 2 - 3 years who understand how to create queens of exceptional stock and not just shake a swarm off a branch and call them "survivor stock"


What if I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

In my opinion we need to know at a good level three of the pillars of a beekeeping to have not major surprises :
- Bee biology;
- Varroa biology;
- how are doing successful beekeepers in my area (and successful is subjective, depending on the objectives of each one).


----------



## dadandsonsbees

I still say to take advise given here as a learning tool. but as said earlier beekeeping is different from one geographic area to another. I tell everybody after any advise that I give on here or in person to find a seasoned beekeeper in your area and glean from their knowledge. Explain to the mentor what you have heard from others and ask if it applies to your area. some of what works up north will not work down south. This is just my 2 cents worth. OH I ve been keeping bees for 20 years ( 25 if you count the time I help my grandfather when I was ALOT younger).


----------



## Oldtimer

sqkcrk said:


> And now that you've brought up Jesus Christ and Hitler that could be the end of the conversation.


Oh please with the PC, your insight probably reveals why you are no moderator. 

Beesource is where it is because Barry does not wield an overly big hammer, but does have the smarts to deal with the important stuff.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

I wasn't around then, but apparently back in the Beesource _Stone Age_, Mark _was _a moderator! 



sqkcrk said:


> When I first became a Moderator, which I no longer am, I asked if I could have my sqkcrk changed to my actual name.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...osure&p=662563&highlight=moderator#post662563


----------



## Oldtimer

Wow. Sqkcrk, Wired for Stereo, who next!


----------



## Harley Craig

sqkcrk said:


> What? Seriously? Sarcasm doesn't work well in text. There are plenty of experienced beekeepers sharing knowledge on beesource.



A few of the forums I visit utilize purple text to indicate sarcasm it works well


----------



## Barry

I've decided to shut the forum down for good. Midnight, tonight.


----------



## Harley Craig

If I were on my mobile device and couldn't access purple text I would reply $ who cares $


----------



## sqkcrk

Oldtimer said:


> Oh please with the PC, your insight probably reveals why you are no moderator.
> 
> Beesource is where it is because Barry does not wield an overly big hammer, but does have the smarts to deal with the important stuff.


OT, I wasn't calling for the end of this Thread, only pointing out that commonly invoking Hitler in internet conversations usually ends them.


----------



## sqkcrk

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I wasn't around then, but apparently back in the Beesource _Stone Age_, Mark _was _a moderator!


Yeah, well after Solomon came along that didn't last long. When Barry asked me to Moderate the Equipment Forum I told him not to expect me to moderate my self. Leastwise that's how I remember it.

Solomon was a Moderator too and look what happened to him.


----------



## sterling

Oldtimer said:


> Oh please with the PC, your insight probably reveals why you are no moderator.
> 
> Beesource is where it is because Barry does not wield an overly big hammer, but does have the smarts to deal with the important stuff.


I was impressed OT you got politics and religion in one sentence .


----------



## Wendellww

I am a NEW beekkeeper in 2014. I do have opinions ... Even though my experience is limited in beekeeping, i do have quite a but of life experience. When I first started on here, I did a few of those posts (yes, I like the idea of TF). After I saw the experience level of some of the posters on here, I started to refrain. Now I only occasionally post an opinion, more questions than opinions.

However, I will say that it seems all newbies on here are encouraged to take classes to learn about beekeeping. Now you are complaining about the newbies sharing what they have been taught in these classes. i'm just saying. 😀

I love beekeeping and wish I had someone to chat with about it. It seems that there are several "good" ways of beekeeping. It is not a one size fits all.

The most important piece of advice I will give: the bees are my responsibility, not my mentors, or anyone on here ... I can evaluate all the advice I want, but the decision & responsibility is mine. So I am careful with my evaluations.

Best wishes to all and Happy Beekeeping! Keep the advice coming. 😎

Wendell


----------



## Oldtimer

sterling said:


> I was impressed OT you got politics and religion in one sentence .


Ha Ha and pulled it off with only one complaint!

Seems the average Beesourcer is still fairly broad minded, TF or not, new or not, old or young.


----------



## Gypsi

Barry said:


> I've decided to shut the forum down for good. Midnight, tonight.


I sure hope that is sarcasm. I haven't had time to read it in 3 months. What happened to Solomon? (I know he was moving from Arkansas to Colorado)

Gypsi


----------



## Oldtimer

Gypsi said:


> What happened to Solomon?


Who?


----------



## Harley Craig

Gypsi said:


> I sure hope that is sarcasm. I haven't had time to read it in 3 months. What happened to Solomon? (I know he was moving from Arkansas to Colorado)
> 
> Gypsi


purple text makes is so.


----------



## linn

Once when I was having beekeeping troubles a person said to me, "do you pray over your bees?" I said, "no." The person said, "maybe you should." So, I did. I prayed in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ. Once (first year of beekeeping) the bee inspector asked me if I took the beekeeping course. I said, "no; I thought I would take the course after I got bees." So, I took the beekeeping course. Once an expert beekeeper asked me if I talked to my bees. I said, "no." So, I started talking to my bees. Once I thought I would do what the big boys do and "cut cells." The hives went queenless. I had to scramble for mated queens and frames of eggs. The hives recovered in time for fall.


----------



## sqkcrk

Oldtimer said:


> Ha Ha and pulled it off with only one complaint!
> 
> Seems the average Beesourcer is still fairly broad minded, TF or not, new or not, old or young.


Who complained? Not me.


----------



## sqkcrk

Oldtimer said:


> Who?


haha, good one.


----------



## Flyer Jim

Oldtimer said:


> Ha Ha and pulled it off with only one complaint!
> 
> Seems the average Beesourcer is still fairly broad minded, TF or not, new or not, old or young.


And Bob"s your uncle.  :lookout:


----------



## biggraham610

Barry said:


> I've decided to shut the forum down for good. Midnight, tonight.


whew.......glad my wife walked by..... Im colorblind............... G


----------



## Hogback Honey

&#55357;&#56349;&#55357;&#56349;&#55357;&#56349;&#55357;&#56349;&#55357;&#56349;&#55357;&#56349;&#55357;&#56333;&#55357;&#56333;&#55357;&#56333;&#55357;&#56333;&#55357;&#56333;&#55357;&#56348;&#55357;&#56348;&#55357;&#56348;&#55357;&#56348;


----------



## biggraham610

Oldtimer said:


> Ha Ha and pulled it off with only one complaint!
> 
> Seems the average Beesourcer is still fairly broad minded, TF or not, new or not, old or young.



Unless you drop a oneliner asking someone to peruse a thread............... G


----------



## sqkcrk

biggraham610 said:


> whew.......glad my wife walked by..... Im colorblind............... G


That's funny, you don't look color blind.


----------



## lucasjack83

You know, when I read your post I couldn't help thinking about The American Rose Society. We always have a constant debate over spray/no spray, organic/synthetic fertilizer so forth and so on. As a novice bee keeper but a professional rose grower there is one thing that makes all the difference in how what our approach is to beekeeping or anyother form of agriculture, monoculture. I grew 1800 roses on a little over 1 acre and I can tell you that I had more problem potential than other growers so I had to have the very best of disease resistant roses to minimize my need for intervention, yet I would still intervene if I needed to, because it was important to me. However that being said, I learned that the less I had to intervene over time the better my roses would perform and that if I culled out bad plants and replaced with better stock the more I could practice horticulture and the less I had to practice chemiculture. I don't hate chemical but I think we kid ourselves in thinking that somehow we wouldn't have anything on God's green earth without chemical intervention and that goes for bees too. People who grow a few good roses in their yards have greater success on a smaller scale than someone like me, and to a person that keeps 10 hives in their back yard, they can have greater success than the dude with 100 who has to intervene because he is pollinating a monoculture. That is just science that is true to all agriculture. Oh and by the way, the time tested success come from people theories and how many of them failed before they got one right?


----------



## rwurster

Gypsi said:


> What happened to Solomon?


https://www.facebook.com/groups/treatmentfreebeekeepers/search/?query=Neil Van Dalsem


----------



## biggraham610

sqkcrk said:


> That's funny, you don't look color blind.


I should have said "whew........ glad my wife walked by..........Im Colorblind"  G


----------



## radu43

Well said!


----------



## sqkcrk

rwurster said:


> https://www.facebook.com/groups/treatmentfreebeekeepers/search/?query=Neil Van Dalsem


Interesting. I thought he had selfsegregated himself from us. I wonder what the whole story is. Not that I think it bears airing in public. I don't think that's necessarily worthwhile.


----------



## sqkcrk

biggraham610 said:


> I should have said "whew........ glad my wife walked by..........Im Colorblind"  G


I thought you were Big G, the hip hop beekeeper. Is Colorblind your other alias? Or is it GDiddy?


----------



## NewbeeInNH

dingo983 said:


> At that point I just deleted myself from that small forum since he had apparently built his base of operations there and was defending his territory to the death.


:lpf:

Welcome to the internet.


----------



## Harvey Wray

+4


----------



## FollowtheHoney

+1


----------



## TalonRedding

What ever happened to the days when most people just couldn't get enough of learning new aspects of their craft so that they could possibly become better at what they do? The only thing that makes an "expert" an "expert" is their amount of knowledge compared to everyone else's. 
It's really simple...you do your thing and I'll do mine. As long as we don't harm one another, everything's good. Perhaps we can learn a thing or two from each other in the process. 
It seems everything today is categorized and put in a box (from religion to politics to even what we eat, wear, TV shows we watch and music we listen to, etc), and we either fit in this "box" or that "box". It really takes the enjoyment out of life when one limits themselves and everyone else around them in this way. 
Ok...I'm off my soapbox now.


----------



## sqkcrk

Tribalism abounds even in this new age.


----------



## gww

I figure raider sidetrack is a computer expert cause I had a problim with making replies on this site and he posted a link that had the answer.

I figure that when I ask a question and someone answers and their answer fixes my problim, They are an expert.

I have a feeling there are lots of experts on this site.
gww


----------



## biggraham610

gww said:


> I figure raider sidetrack is a computer expert cause I had a problim with making replies on this site and he posted a link that had the answer.
> 
> I figure that when I ask a question and someone answers and their answer fixes my problim, They are an expert.
> 
> I have a feeling there are lots of experts on this site.
> gww


Hats off to Rader..............:applause: G


----------



## Gypsi

lucasjack83 said:


> However that being said, I learned that the less I had to intervene over time the better my roses would perform and that if I culled out bad plants and replaced with better stock the more I could practice horticulture and the less I had to practice chemiculture. I don't hate chemical but I think we kid ourselves in thinking that somehow we wouldn't have anything on God's green earth without chemical intervention and that goes for bees too. People who grow a few good roses in their yards have greater success on a smaller scale than someone like me, and to a person that keeps 10 hives in their back yard, they can have greater success than the dude with 100 who has to intervene because he is pollinating a monoculture. That is just science that is true to all agriculture. Oh and by the way, the time tested success come from people theories and how many of them failed before they got one right?


Lucas that may be the smartest thing I have ever read on a bee forum. No offense Sqkcrk  On second thought Charlie B also has contributed greatly to my bee-education.


----------



## biggraham610

sqkcrk said:


> I thought you were Big G, the hip hop beekeeper. Is Colorblind your other alias? Or is it GDiddy?


:no: Negative. G


----------



## sqkcrk

Gypsi said:


> No offense Sqkcrk


Not my fault you find what I write smart.


----------



## Oldtimer

sqkcrk said:


> Interesting. I thought he had selfsegregated himself from us.


Poor guy obviously hit rock bottom now. I see he cannot talk to his friend.

Such a shame.


----------



## rwurster

Oldtimer said:


> Poor guy obviously hit rock bottom now. I see he cannot talk to his friend. Such a shame.


I guess there's drawbacks even after one has reached Koresh-like status and has 3500+ followers  

Personally, he's what turned me away from the TF subforum and I really haven't returned even after his leave. Its a decent forum for an important aspect of beekeeping. Such is life.

I did however find it interesting that posting any pics of a flow hive frame would get one banned from his group. It looks like TF goodness flows not from a flow frame hive in that group's eyes


----------



## sqkcrk

R we gonna start lambasting someone who can't respond now? Let's not.


----------



## rwurster

You're right, not fair on my part. Forgot he couldn't respond lol


----------



## Oldtimer

He can respond, but because of his incessant trolling and troublemaking he is under special observation, that's all.

But what happened when you responded in his little kingdom Sqkcrk?


----------



## Oldtimer

Rwurster the best thing you may be able to do is loan some support to the Beesource TF area, it has been damaged by events in the past but in my view is a great place to have a TF chat area. Is not moderated by my way or the highway type fanatics, plus does get input from more experienced beeks than you mostly see on the 3,500 follower site, and the layout is a whole lot more sensible than a Facebook page.

Beesource is the worlds leading bee chat site and in my view the Beesource TF area should be nursed back to good health and input from experienced beeks like yourself will help that.


----------



## Oldtimer

rwurster said:


> I did however find it interesting that posting any pics of a flow hive frame would get one banned from his group.


Funny thing about that. Despite his opposition to the flow hive & threats to ban etc, he also said he expects to receive one once somebody who purchased one fails at beekeeping and sells up. IE, he wants to swoop in & get one cheap.

But don't post a pic of one LOL.


----------



## WBVC

When someone follows new posts do posts from all categories show up?


----------



## Oldtimer

Pretty sure, yes, other than stuff that has been deleted by the moderator which does not.


----------



## lucasjack83

Gypsi said:


> Lucas that may be the smartest thing I have ever read on a bee forum. No offense Sqkcrk  On second thought Charlie B also has contributed greatly to my bee-education.


Thanks Gypsi, although I often look back what what I wrote and thought to myself "I should've had my wife edit what I wrote so that I didn't sound like a four year old". Thanks anyway, hope it made sense.


----------



## Gypsi

Lucas, it made a lot of sense. There are a LOT of smart keeps on BeeSource, but that one post kind of tied in the rhythm of what I am finding to be true for me locally. I was going to bail on beekeeping due to the drought. It is blissfully raining today, we are 41 inches behind on rainfall over the 5 year period past, not sure 2 inches will fix it. I have also learned to garden with a drought and to keep my hive count down to the point where I can get a little honey for me, it is much much easier to be small and be satisfied with where I am than to try to grow it into a business. At least for me. I can have healthy bees or big headaches. I'm going for small and healthy.


----------



## CLICKBANGBANG

I'm on my 3rd year now, and have always posted my year of keeping in my sig... After seeing how a few buy bees every year, and how some sell bees every year, I found which group to follow and build my practices after. This didn't and isn't keeping me from mistakes and killing a lot of bees as I go, but I'm hoping to continue to learn from those that are successful. 

I learned quick around here and still scroll though threads looking for the comments of a few posters. The rest is white noise cluttering the board.


----------



## Forest

Hops Brewster said:


> opcorn:


Teehee... +1


----------



## xphoney

Oldtimer said:


> Funny thing about that. Despite his opposition to the flow hive & threats to ban etc, he also said he expects to receive one once somebody who purchased one fails at beekeeping and sells up. IE, he wants to swoop in & get one cheap.
> 
> But don't post a pic of one LOL.


Just for the record, I think all facebook groups I am on prohibit new flow hive threads.


----------



## Oldtimer

Hmm, the company we keep.


----------



## sqkcrk

CLICKBANGBANG said:


> I learned quick around here and still scroll though threads looking for the comments of a few posters. The rest is white noise cluttering the board.


Me too. And quite often it's Posts that refer to what we do as "keeping" or who we are as "beeks" or "keepers". But I'm 62 and have been at this since 1976, so I am probably not only stuck in my ways but somewhat stuck in the past. You might find it funny though that the flow hive doesn't bother me at all.


----------



## Nabber86

sqkcrk said:


> OT, I wasn't calling for the end of this Thread, only pointing out that commonly invoking Hitler in internet conversations usually ends them.


That is called Godwin's law of internet arguments. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law


----------



## beepro

Gypsi, you are so smart.
Like you I am keeping my hives small to provide better
care and management of them. As long as I have the bees
then I am happy. Good year will come again someday. 
Looks like another year going into our 4th consecutive drought years again. 
Even though on small hive with adequate feeding you can still
graft the bees and do some splits too. It is how you are able to
manage them wisely. And I think you are one to keep bees according
to your local environment. A patch of local Borage goes a long way for my small hive.


----------



## lemmje

When i was a kid i tended my father's hives, then he died and the hives went with him (so to speak). I have wanted for years to take it up again, but knew i knew very little despite my experience. I knew enough to get started, but certainly not enough to actually "get started". So i read everything I could find, watched endless videos, and keep a journal of my philosophy. 

I do hope to be one of those guys that comes back and tells you all how this really works, and how *you* should be doing it, but for the time being, i continue to read and watch everything i can to get me ready to bee an expert........ 

All i ask is: Help? Because, i still want to read everything everyone has to say, then decide how it fits into my philosophy, and journal all my experiences -- guess blogging is how it is done these days, but these journals help me....


----------



## beepro

Welcome to Bee Source, lemmje!

You are wise enough to get your education before you start.
I am the hands on type to jump in and learn it the hard way.
Yes, everyone has his or her philosophy. But the bees have their
own too. Sometimes I try to have it my way but they do not comply. I
had to change back to the way that they operate. I tend to forget that one from time to time though.


----------



## Gypsi

Welcome. I tried to be a bee-haver and flunked so Beesource was my first "school". I read voraciously about 9 hours a day summer of 2011. I opened my hive and checked on things twice a week And amazingly that 2nd hive (I joined when I lost the first one) flourished.

But alas I learned the lesson of robber bees walking through a cloud of at least 25,000 bees - the whole hive came in force they PULLED the robber screen off the front of my hive, I was covering it with a sheet when the sprinkler failed.

someone on here had a tag line that read "bees are bees and they do as they please". Every once in awhile someone calls me an expert in something, and I decline the position. (generally isn't bees, I have been in aquatics 20 years and gardening 30)

I just try to be up to whatever puzzle the bees present today. That is enough for me.


----------



## rwurster

Yes, it looks like he's been rather active in the last few hours.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/treatmentfreebeekeepers/permalink/1102294306453095/

I guess if you're TF but not in his camp you're unworthy


----------



## Nabber86

He has a big problem with normal relations. I say with all my heart, good luck. But another part of me says good riddance. Cross post fighting on 2 websites. Good grief.


----------



## Oldtimer

I read the FB rant you linked, Wow what a lot of badly hung up people, so sad.

Where is the thread on Beesource Solomon so upset about?


----------



## sqkcrk

Like the title of this Thread says "Please Stop... " I see little benefit in further discussion on this topic/person. What's the point, beyond attempting to stroke our own ego, of talking about someone who can't, for whatever reason(s), participate in the conversation?

Now if someone who can't participate in the conversation has an idea worthy of discussion, that's another thing. And perhaps something worth discussion. As long as it doesn't go to ridicule of the person who holds that or those idea(s).


----------



## beemandan

Post deleted by poster. Mark is right...this time


----------



## sqkcrk




----------



## Caleb E

dsegrest said:


> I learned early on in my real estate career that there are people who have been in the business for 2 or 3 years that have 2 or 3 year's experience. There are others who have been in the business for 20 years and have 1 year's experience 20 times.


I like this! Also, You get two beekeepers together and will have 3 opinions!


----------



## Duranthas

Oldtimer said:


> ....TF area, it has been damaged by events in the past but in my view is a great place to have a TF chat area.


As is with most things in life, 2 people can have wildly different view, and I have to disagree with you on the quoted. Take this for example  (first sentence in his response, and of course no apology after being corrected). I have to wonder why someone who IMO has a similar mindset to the OP, that TF people are nuts, would ever go there. There are tons of areas of this forum I never go to (CCD & Commercial for example) because that is an area with views I don't agree with. You won't find me going there to tell them how wrong they are, yet IMO that happens in the TF section and is perfectly acceptable. We have to admit that zealots are on both sides, not just the newbie TF crowd.
Perhaps we should all remember that when you point a finger, 3 more are pointing back at you.
Thankfully the ignore feature works quite well here. I'm sure I just earned a spot on it


----------



## kilocharlie

We don't all fit into the same mold. Some folks get into beekeeping from different routes than others. 

Laurie Miller is an example of a beekeeping prodigy, possessing great computer skills, a digital camera, a ranch, experience breeding other types of animals, excellent carpentry skills, having gone quickly from a few hives to over 200, etc. She gets a pass. Her background has given her excellent beekeeper "intuition", for lack of a better term. I am grateful for her posting the innovation of orienting worker foundation vertically in the frames, allowing the bees to draw out larger cells on either side. Mite problems are solved by cutting out the drone comb with a knife. Practical and poetic. Thank you, Lauri!

Dr. Joe Latshaw is perhaps the ultimate prodigy, having grown up in a research lab, gotten his Ph.D., and learned from some of the best in the game. He is no second year buck private, of course, and he does not post often, but when he does, he's good.

Oldtimer, appropriately named, is an example of the opposite end of the spectrum, as are Michael Bush, Michael Palmer, Joseph Clemens, Ted Kretschman, Graham, and probably better than two dozen veterans. They have taken their lumps for many years and well know how easy this game isn't.

I really enjoy the many views, from around the world, and the many different conditions and aspects of beekeeping. Perhaps it is a vicarious form of vacation travel enjoyment for me, but I think it keeps me thinking about bees in different ways, even the "newbie experts", who sometimes come up with something worth looking into, whose questions may lead to 5-star discussions, and especially us "young journeymen" who have been keeping bees a few years and are fervently reading research, buying books, building variations on equipment, pushing the envelope this way or that, re-learning old lessons that the veterans forgot (except Bush, of course  ), getting in friendly banters occasionally and admitting our mistakes and lessons learned.

I am also grateful to Randy Oliver, with his www.scientificbeekeeping.com and hope he is able to keep on doing what he does. I'm donating this year, I promise!

I'm especially thankful to our founder and site administrator, Barry the Great. You rock, good buddy!

I proudly plagiarize Beepro's trailer, "I luv Beesource!"


----------



## blamb61

dsegrest said:


> I'm a new beekeeper (2 years). I am a REALTOR for 30 years. I learned early on in my real estate career that there are people who have been in the business for 2 or 3 years that have 2 or 3 year's experience. There are others who have been in the business for 20 years and have 1 year's experience 20 times.


Touché


----------



## kilocharlie

Caleb E said:


> I like this! Also, You get two beekeepers together and will have 3 opinions!


Now that is a classic of Beesource AND of mathematics! 1 +1 = 3!

I am reminded of the limerick that was written about Paul Erdoes (pronounced "Air-dish"), the Man Who Loved Only Numbers...

A mathematic discussion profound
is whether a circle is round.
In a paper by Erdoes
that was published in Kurdish
a counterexample is found!

So, there ARE true oxymorons in mathematics.


----------



## Oldtimer

Duranthas said:


> There are tons of areas of this forum I never go to (CCD & Commercial for example) because that is an area with views I don't agree with.


That is a closed minded approach. It's better, if you want a well rounded education, to venture even into the areas where you may disagree, every now and then one will find a nugget of value, that may never have been found anywhere else.

Also the post you found that you disagreed with, and linked, was more than a year ago. Hardly enough reason to say nobody should talk on that forum. I'd say most people could find something somewhere they disagree with, in the last year. 

For me, I read most of what comes up in the TF forum even though I'm not TF myself. I am better educated for what I have learned there. If I wanted to avoid all garbage at all costs, I wouldn't read Beesource at all or for that matter anything on the net. As an open forum to all, by definition not everything is going to be absolute truth, regardless of which forum category.


----------



## StingerMcStung

*Fantastic*

Just signed up a day ago and this is a great thread from a newbie perspective IMO. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Me: I grew up in the building trade(s) so I am biased toward the apprenticeship/mentor model and a "production" perspective. Therefore, I'm more inclined to see how the 'big-boys' are running things, serve a little time if need be, and then scale back to hobby from there. 

My guess is commercial guys/gals know bees, disease, and how to see, interpret, intervene, and keep the hives producing (cheapest input for maximum profit.) i.e. we've been doing it to feed our families for a long time, it works. Your investment is spread across multiple hives and some win and some lose.

Hobby/club set: This is a hobby and community (colony?) Losing a hive is a substantial loss. You likely have more time for your bees and can therefore treat them as celebrities (invest more hours per hive.) Have time to help new-bees and grow as a whole. Likely, not raised with bees so you DO remember what it was like to be bee-less and starting out. EDIT: Not to say hobbyists aren't familiar with disease, but don't see the volume/occurrences as a commercial beek would. 

Don't forget the Bee-Docs too (I'm close to Davis): Can probably perform bee-cpr or mouth-to-mouth. Know waggles and can translate in 30 different languages. Are the cornerstone to disease/pest/pesticide/anti-biotic resistance/bee survival. Probably wouldn't have the skill-set to run commercial bees, nor the patients to tolerate newbies. 

This is all opinion (and generalizations) based on weeks of reading here and the archives i.e. me trying to sort it all out to learn. 

That said, I do cringe watching home-improvement show 'experts.' However, I'm not sharing knowledge in front of my local home-depot either, so I suppose if I really cared I'd be out there myself. 

Disclaimer: I will school the electrical aisle guy, if I overhear him trying to fry a customer unwittingly. I'm not heartless. 

Centuries of combined wisdom at this site. Thank you all for sharing it with us.



Mark


----------



## Duranthas

Oldtimer said:


> That is a closed minded approach.


What a closed minded thing to say 
The whole reason for sub forums is so you don't have to spend so much time filtering. I've no doubt there is plenty I could learn from and likely agree with in both the Commercial and CCD sections, but why waste so much of my time when other ways are far more efficient towards getting me where I am trying to go?
I'll bet at some point in time someone has discussed a bee related subject we could learn from in a womens forum. Should we mass exodus Beesource to find it lest we lose that pearl?


Oldtimer said:


> Also the post you found that you disagreed with, and linked, was more than a year ago. Hardly enough reason to say nobody should talk on that forum. I'd say most people could find something somewhere they disagree with, in the last year.


That's funny, on my screen that post I linked is dated 4-15-2015, two weeks from today actually, which is hardly a year. And I never said "nobody should talk on that forum". 


Oldtimer said:


> If I wanted to avoid all garbage at all costs, I wouldn't read Beesource at all or for that matter anything on the net. As an open forum to all, by definition not everything is going to be absolute truth, regardless of which forum category.


What an amazing strawman you have there...
Read the text below the TF Sub Section Link. "Discussing and formulating honeybee management methods that cooperate as much as possible with natural bee biology without resorting to the use of chemicals and drugs.". Closed minded indeed! *shakes fist* 
Look, it's not that I think non-TF people should never got to the TF section, nor should they never post there. However I do feel that it is not an area for them to keep grinding that ax until it has became a toothpick. If I were the only one who feels that way then I'd wonder if I were just being touchy, but since I am not...... All I said is that I disagree that it's a "great" place for two people to chat about TF.
And as I said, 2 people can have different views when reading the same thing.


----------



## Oldtimer

Points noted.

Also, you are correct I got my dates totally mixed up, creeping old age I guess.

To StingerMcStung, good post, good name too.


----------



## Duranthas

Oldtimer said:


> creeping old age I guess.


If I learn half as much about bees as you have forgotten by the time I'm your age, I'll consider myself blessed.
Keep posting, I'm absorbing.


----------



## jim lyon

Duranthas said:


> As is with most things in life, 2 people can have wildly different view, and I have to disagree with you on the quoted. Take this for example  (first sentence in his response, and of course no apology after being corrected). I have to wonder why someone who IMO has a similar mindset to the OP, that TF people are nuts, would ever go there. There are tons of areas of this forum I never go to (CCD & Commercial for example) because that is an area with views I don't agree with. You won't find me going there to tell them how wrong they are, yet IMO that happens in the TF section and is perfectly acceptable. We have to admit that zealots are on both sides, not just the newbie TF crowd.
> Perhaps we should all remember that when you point a finger, 3 more are pointing back at you.
> Thankfully the ignore feature works quite well here. I'm sure I just earned a spot on it


In reality it's not what forum you are posting in but how you make your point. I don't know anyone that has anything bad to say about Squarepeg's ongoing thread about his tf experiences. I know I read it with interest and I do so primarily because it's not faith based but contains very specific information about what is going on with his hives and what manipulation so he is using to remain treatment free. Its neither judgmental or divisive. 
The tf forum is a place for discussion about treatment free beekeeping just as the commercial forum is a place for discussion about beekeeping from a commercial perspective. All may participate to the extent that they do so courteously and with a willingness to learn and understand. 
A few years back I made a post on the tf forum in response to a post that commercials dump lots of harmful chemicals in their hives that contaminate the honey. I responded that I can document with testing results that this is not true. That there are many miticides that when properly used leave no residue in the honey. The moderator at the time deleted my post and in a pm exchange told me that there were other reasons for becoming treatment free and that any argument for using treatments wasn't acceptable in the tf forum. I disagreed and continue to disagree believing that while raising hardier bees more resistant to varroa is a worthwhile goal (and one I admire) doing so with the pretense of unfairly categorizing what others do should not be part of the discussion. 
I think what Barry has created here is a wonderful resource and the vast number of posters represent a really deep body of experience from lots of different points of view from around the world. Everyone should feel free to make posts within the rules of the forum but they should understand that getting challenged on a point isn't necessarily rude it's just the way an open discussion forum works.


----------



## beemandan

jim lyon said:


> they should understand that getting challenged on a point isn't necessarily rude it's just the way an open discussion forum works.


I often think this is where things go awry. Many folks get their egos tied up in their opinions....and then any challenge becomes a personal insult...in their minds. Two adults having very different opinions is perfectly normal. 
Just my thinking on the matter.


----------



## JRG13

I have an open mind about it... but I throw this challenge out all the time... bring your bees over here to 35lbs average honey crop a year, large migratory operations and local operations everywhere, hot and dry climate and see how your treatment free bees do.... I beileve we experience some hyper virulence here with all the almond bees when it comes to mites. I love testing queens, so please, if you believe your line to be 'survivor stock' I will gladly pay for them a good price for you to send some to me to test out. I mainly dislike the arrogance that 'everyone should be TF' and the we're better than you treaters tone I see on that FB link. I'm all for TF, but it's not as simple as everyone makes it to be in all areas.


----------



## Nabber86

Duranthas said:


> What an amazing strawman you have there...


That is not really a strawman argument that Oldtimer built. 



Duranthas said:


> Read the text below the TF Sub Section Link. "Discussing and formulating honeybee management methods that cooperate as much as possible with natural bee biology without resorting to the use of chemicals and drugs.". Closed minded indeed! *shakes fist*


Apparently you were not around while the former moderator of the TF Forum was in charge.


----------



## grozzie2

jim lyon said:


> The moderator at the time deleted my post


I stopped looking at that sub-forum about that time,not interested in discussions where posts vanish like that. Has that changed these days ?


----------



## Chicomon

Mornin' Dingo. You sound like a man to whom I would like to pose a question. And if you have time to read this post, I totally appreciate it. 
Am an absolute novice. Getting ready tomorrow for my first inspection of a week old package hive. New, but trying to do it right. I am reading, researching and absorbing everything I can about this so that I can be remotely ready when situations arise, so some of my questions may sound premature or even stupid but after all, I am a simple ******* from South Carolina. Got a bug up my butt after talking with a Buddy who is also getting ready to take on a hive and in conversation splitting a hive has come up. When this happens, I try to find some satisfaction to my questions--about anything. Question is, can you tell me from a 3# package hive (medium or 8 frame) this time of year, good flow, happy bees, etc., and so on--how long into the future should I start looking at splitting my hive. I realize this is down the road, but I want to have some sort of plan with my new endeavor. I only ask now because my busy work season is coming upon me and I want to be prepared well in advance to possibly start another hive this year if that is even feasible.
Thanks for taking the time to read this dissertation, hope you're having a good day.

Chico Neyrey
Charleston, SC


----------



## Nabber86

Chicomon said:


> Question is, can you tell me from a 3# package hive (medium or 8 frame) this time of year, good flow, happy bees, etc., and so on--how long into the future should I start looking at splitting my hive. I realize this is down the road, but I want to have some sort of plan with my new endeavor. I only ask now because my busy work season is coming upon me and I want to be prepared well in advance to possibly start another hive this year if that is even feasible.


I am not Dingo, but I don't think that anyone could predict when you would be able to split your hive. I would work on building up a really strong hive to make it through next winter. If all goes well, you might be able to split in the spring.


----------



## Chicomon

Thanks, Nabber. I was kinda thinkin' that would be the answer I'd get. Makes good sense and will give me time after my busy fishing season to build my hive over the winter. Wasn't trying to rush things, but as I mentioned in my post, tryin' to plan and prepare ahead for whatever I can. Always wanted hives and have become totally involved with my girls already. Been planning this hive for a year and my wife got me the whole deal for my birthday in March and I'm just stoked about it all.
Really appreciate your time. Appears to be a pretty good group of folks on here. Thanks for taking it on to reply.

Chico


----------



## lharder

I get a ton of really good information on practical beekeeping from old time big time beekeepers on this forum. I will say this though. The worst of the problems we have, is a result of commercial beekeepers pushing for importation of bees to solve short term problems of bee shortage. So if beekeepers are creating their own problems, its clear that the industry as a whole is lost on the big picture stuff. Otherwise things would be BETTER than it used to be. Now we are arguing about solutions after the horse has left the barn.


----------



## Oldtimer

That is true in my country also. However when mistakes are made such as you mention, it is not ALL commercial beekeepers who are at fault. An unwise (in my opinion) importation was done in my country by a commercial beekeeper. But most commercial beekeepers opposed this and the guy had to fight with lawyers for years before getting final approval. So stuff like that happens, but because there are many commercial beekeepers and some of them are individualists, there will always be the odd flake with a different opinion, but this is not usually the fault of the entire industry.

However the other part of the point you raise is correct, most of the pest and disease issues bees now have is down to the wholesale movements of bees that used to go on, from all over the world. Combined with moveable frame hives.


----------

