# Small Cell Questions



## Guest (Jan 6, 2004)

Hi all,

I Have several questions I would like to answer or have answered. I know that some have been proven in reasearch but I would like to repete it and help suport it.

The first question, as I have also posted to MB earler; Does the small cells reduce the amount of time the brood remans in the cell?

If it does this would have a large impact on the mites, and the reproductive time fram that they have. Also it is one of the leading reasions that most researchers think the AHB has had little trouble dealing with mites.

Although 4.9mm users want to say that it is the size of the cell reducing the amount of room the mites must have.

2nd. As most of you know, if you convert to small cell and stop all treatments you will have losses. Alot of losses. I have seen many breeders take slective steps in finding queens that have better traits againest mites. So when I see someone that has lost 50, 100, or 500 hives to mites I wonder if from the stock that was present was some of the traits there? and are they giving the small cell too much credit? So does small cell cure the problem or is it just one more link in the IPM chain?

3rd. I would like to know what type of bees (races) do best on small cell? Do some races have a better reaction with the small cell? Are we putting some races under the stress that we are trying to remove by regressing the bees back to a natural state? What about natural cell size...has anyone looked where the races came from in europe and seen what is "natural" there?

Thanks for your help.

BB


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The first question, as I have also posted to MB earler; Does the small cells reduce the amount of time the brood remans in the cell?

I have taken the time to check at least three or four times a day in my observation hive when the queen is resuming laying, to see when the eggs were layed and mark the cells on the glass and noting the time when they were layed, when they were capped and when they emerged. I have not been able to measure it down to the number of hours because I can't restrict the queen to laying when I have time to watch her and I would have to observe the brood hourly to see if it has emerged etc. I hope to do this in the spring, but I have consistently seen capping a day early and emergence a half to a day early (measuring from capping time) or a day and a half to two days early (measuring from the egg being layed). In other words if you start at day 0 when it was layed (I saw the eggs in the morning that were not there last night) and count to day 8 (eight days later), this is when they were capped (also in the morning)(large bees are capped on day 9) and on day 19 (in the morning and evening) they were emerging. (Large bees would be emerging on day 21)

>If it does this would have a large impact on the mites, and the reproductive time fram that they have. Also it is one of the leading reasions that most researchers think the AHB has had little trouble dealing with mites.

I would like to see others try to duplicate the experiment. It is helpful to have an observation hive, but I intend to do it in a nuc so that I can confine the queen and get measurments down to plus or minus an hour on both workers and drones of both small cell and large. I have not measured it on drones which may be as important if not more important. http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/varroa/ModellingBiologicalApproaches.pdf if you search for "post capping" you will see that according to their model, shortening it by 7 hours for workers will make the required 25% change that would stablize the varroa population. I'm seeing somewhere between 12 and 24 hours shorter.

But also the shorter capping time means less mite infesting the cells. http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm This study is on AHB with various sized cells, but the concept is still the same.

>Although 4.9mm users want to say that it is the size of the cell reducing the amount of room the mites must have.

That is one theory. 

>2nd. As most of you know, if you convert to small cell and stop all treatments you will have losses. Alot of losses. I have seen many breeders take slective steps in finding queens that have better traits againest mites. So when I see someone that has lost 50, 100, or 500 hives to mites I wonder if from the stock that was present was some of the traits there? and are they giving the small cell too much credit? So does small cell cure the problem or is it just one more link in the IPM chain?

Obviosly I see it as one more part of the whole. If you have survivor stock that was small already and you put it at the disadvantage of large cells that is a disadvantage to the bees.

>3rd. I would like to know what type of bees (races) do best on small cell? Do some races have a better reaction with the small cell? Are we putting some races under the stress that we are trying to remove by regressing the bees back to a natural state?

I have seen no real difference by race. They are all naturally small cell bees as evidenced by what they have done when I let them.

>What about natural cell size...has anyone looked where the races came from in europe and seen what is "natural" there?

I intend to do an experiment this spring to let some large cell and small cell bees build what they want as far as cell size and comb spacing and then shake them down and do it again and see if it changes and by how much. I have let them do it under less stringent conditions with frames setting the spacing and without the shakedowns and so far the 5.4mm bees seem to build about 5.15mm the first generation and around 4.9mm the second and 4.7 to 4.85 after that. They do seem to change cell size depending on the time of year, though.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Michael, I was wondering if there are several bee keepers in the area and I was the only one trying to regress size will the other hives in the area have a effect as far as mating goes. Will I have to take steps to control this? Can it even be controled?. 

Also did you consider using video to monitor your ob hive? 
MIKI


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, I was wondering if there are several bee keepers in the area and I was the only one trying to regress size will the other hives in the area have a effect as far as mating goes.

Probably the smaller drones from your hives will be the more successful with other queens from other hives.

Your drones and your queens have a tendency to fly different distances and therfore are less likely, to mate with each other. But of course, this is not for sure.

>Will I have to take steps to control this? 

I wouldn't worry about it. If you have more than one hive, try to keep different genetics in them. In other words, don't by the queens from the same breeder and you won't have as much likelyhood that they are sisters.

>Can it even be controled?.

What is it you really want to control?

>Also did you consider using video to monitor your ob hive? 

I had not. It is tempting. If I put the camera on the outside it could work, but in order to have a good field of vision you'd lose most of the detail. In order to have detail you'd lose most of the field of vision. Catch 22.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

I see your point about detail, this would require multiple cameras. the expense would be considerable unless you could rent or borrow the extra equipment. But you would be able to pin point the time period to the second (time indexing). It would certainly free up some of your time.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I see your point about time. If I had the queen restricted to a small enough area, which I was going to do, it might work. A lot of expensive equipment, but it might work.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hello Everyone,

Maybe smaller cell bees hatch in less time, I don't know. But the biggest factor that limits the mites ability to increase their population is bee behavior.

Bees on small cell comb detect infected brood, uncap it, remove it and destroy the mites by biting them. I have seen this behavior in everyone of my hives on small cell, regardless of race. 

Check out my photos of debris below a screened bottom board on a small cell hive at http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/dennis/index.htm 

These shots show more info than is possible to elaborate on in a short post. What are the ages/sexes of the mites present? How did they get there? What was the condition of the hive? Can anyone find a mite without bite marks? What do those white antenna mean?
Have fun!

A side effect of running screened bottom boards with mite trays since 1996, is a good idea of mite behavior. I am no longer concerned about mite treatments, research, etc. I've learned to spot increasing mite infestations but have yet to see them in my small cell hives.

I have not treated my small cell colonies since 1999. The last two summers, the natural mite fall averaged about one mite per week. A commercial beekeeper in the area lost about 30% of his hives this season to mites. And my bees are less than a mile from several of his yards.

As far as mites go, small cell beekeeping works. The mental and physical energy I used to spend on mites now gets applied to other areas, like figuring out the whys, hows and wherefores associated with small cell beekeeping.

The problem with small cell beekeeping is not whether it works for mites, but how to get enough small cell comb fast enough, without the downside.

From what I now know, I can't imagine a beekeeper not running bees on small cell. But I also can't imagine a beekeeper killing most of his hives to do it by following regression methodology. I did it, lost most of my hives, but wouldn't do it that way again. 

Historical measurements of bee comb are a pandoras box. Different countries, rulers, etc. had different standards for the inch and all of that changed through time. And much of the measurements were prefaced with the error that bees only build one size worker cell.

I know that a single hive will build a large range of worker cell sizes from about 5.6mm to about 4.6mm depending upon their location in the broodnest.

Check the 'Small Cell' pages out at http://bwrangler.litarium.com/small-cell/ 

Just where were those historical worker cells measured in regard to the broodnest structure? Did they take a representative measurement that reflected the majority of worker cells. Or ones that were somewhere between the largest and smallest sizes. Or was a measurement taken in the geographical center of the broodnest? Or??? :> )

I have tried just about every type of commercially available bee on small cell and they all do well on it. The best for mite control dropped less than one mite/week. The worst dropped 3 mites/week. 

Just some small cell thoughts. 

Regards
Dennis


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

Hi Dennis

Have you ever done any calculating regarding what the percentage of damaged mites is relative to the total fall on the bottom?

Just curious. Ive only done it enough to know its very time consuming.....now I just sorta glimpse at them to see if there is obvious damage. Highest I have ever seen was about 70% damaged....crushed shells, amputated legs, juveniles yanked out of cells, etc.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Bees on small cell comb detect infected brood, uncap it, remove it and destroy the mites by biting them. I have seen this behavior in everyone of my hives on small cell, regardless of race. 


Have you, or anyone else, have any idea why this is? I certainly can not see why only size would make them more hygenic.


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

First, from what I gather with Dennis' pics (cant see them little buggers perfectly but pretty decent), you are seeing two traits expressed......HYG in the cleaning of brood cells with juvenile varroa and grooming behavior of adults mites from bees. 

I dont really know much of the particulars of small cell but Dennis can probably clear that up for you.

Lots of observers know that both HYG and grooming traits exists within a wide range of bees and to varying degrees. It appears that Dennis may be seeing higher levels of damage than I have ever seen. Someone else might have an idea why it would be triggered to such an extent on small cell....I wont even guess.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

So correct me if I'm wrong but everything I have read so far points to this, And this is what I intend to do this spring.
1. Start regressing 
2. use FGMO
3. monitor and record mite falls/ behaviors
4. ween some hives off FGMO and compare
5. report findings back here 
6. ask the million questions I will probably have!

Does this sound like a good BASIC start.
MIKI


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So correct me if I'm wrong but everything I have read so far points to this, And this is what I intend to do this spring.
>1. Start regressing 
>2. use FGMO
>3. monitor and record mite falls/ behaviors
>4. ween some hives off FGMO and compare
>5. report findings back here 

>Does this sound like a good BASIC start.

That's what I've done so far and I would recommmend it.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Mike, thanks and if you run your experiment I would be very interested in the results good luck.
MIKI


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Wineman,

I had been looking for damaged mites since 1996 with my large cell hives. I thought I saw one once but wasn't sure. It could have just been confused. :> )

Bees on small cell were a different story at the end of the first year. 

The bald brood and broodnest cleansing are most intense during the spring and fall. At midsummer, the mite trays on a small cell hive will look somewhat like those from a large cell hive. Most of the fallen mites will be mature females and less than 10% of them will be damaged.

All of the different races of bees I was running on small cell demonstrated the broodnest cleansing and mite chopping behavior. The yellower bees starter earlier, some as early as late July. The dark bees started later, some as late mid to late September.

Once underway, all of the hives damaged over 90% of the fallen mites. Most hives damaged in the upper 90% range. I only counted mites with a visible bite mark in the shell as damaged.

I was so impressed, that I planned to document it with a digital camera at the end of the next season. Unfortunately, after that, the bees kept the mite fall so low that the only way I could spot broodnest cleansing was to find those little white pupa antennae. It's tough to document broodnest cleansing at 1 mite/week. :> ) 

I used to look for damaged mites with a magnifier. But when they are as damaged as the mites in the photo, I can spot them on a tray at 6' with my eyes. That smooth vitreous curve of the mites shell reflects the dents like a mirror. :> )

Some of those mites have been bitten multiple times. I spotted one with four seperate narfs in its shell in the photo.

I'm sorry about the low quality of the mite tray shots. I made them suitable for posting on the web and discarded the high resolution originals thinking that a detailed study would supplant them. 

You guys will have to do that now. Just don't wait for the second season like I did. :> )

Regards
Dennis


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi BullsEye,

I just don't know. But the difference if bee beehavior is so dramatic. It's hard to believe they're the same bees.

They can handle both of the mites. I had terrible loses to T mites before small cell. They overwinter great with larger,healthier clusters. Zero colonies lost in two seasons with no dinks either. Spring buildup is faster with the stronger overwinter clusters.

I believe that comb is more than just a place to rear brood and store food. The broodnest has a structure and that structure, including cell size, triggers certain types of behavior. That behavior changes through the season as does the utilization of the broodnest. 

How do they physically detect mites. I think they hear them. But that's pure specualtion.

Check out http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/barry/index.htm 

for similiar behavior concerning wax moth larva.

Regards
Dennis


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Miki,

Go for it. It's a great plan. Keep those bees alive without contaiminating the hive and keep them drawing out as much small cell comb as possible.

Dead bees are really terrible at drawing out comb. I know from personal experience.:> )

Do you know Thomas Kober, a pioneering small cell beekeeper in Germany?

Regards
Dennis


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Hey Bwrangler,
No I don't know him but I think I should make it a point to. Do you have an e-mail for him. I was checking out your site WOW opened up my eyes. My wife is working on ours as we speak I'll post the link as soon as its up and running. Thanks for the encouragement.

MIKI


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Miki,

I'll send you his address privately so the spambots won't get him.

Looking forward to your site.

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If I were starting a hive today, I'd put some small cell starter strips, or some plain (you'll have to make the sheets) starter strips and let the bees build what they want for comb. You can cut standard bars to have a slope or add a piece to make a slope on the bottom. If you cut a standard top bar on the table saw, you will still have a groove and can put starter strips there. If you add a piece you can skip the starter strips.

Bees seem quite eager to build their own comb in their own size in their own oreintation. Much more so than on any kind of foundation.

Here are some pictures of foundationless frames. http://www.charlesmartinsimon.com/frameinstructions.htm


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would suggest to everyone (anywhere but especially on this board) if you post an email address do it in the form of: name at domain dot com instead of [email protected]. We all know what the form is when emailing them, but the spambots don't pick it up.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited January 13, 2004).]


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## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

Hey Dennis

Unfortunately I dont have a digital camera. Been thinking about getting one...would be nice to take pics of different things so I could send them to people.

I started with the magnifying glass too. It was brutal......looking, looking, straining, squinting, getting headache. But after you figure out what you are looking for it is easy. Now I just take a glance at the tray and have a solid idea what the grooming traits of the colony are. Guess you gotta learn it the hard way first though....LOL!

Well you are definately seeing higher damaged mites than I have seen. Upper 60%-70% was about the highest. And I had many times like you were I would look at hundreds of mites from a colony over the course of a few weeks and see no damage. I dont have any small cell though, be interesting to see what would happen if/when I add some.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Bwrangler, I notice you were experimenting with mixed foundation to get more variation in sizing.

I notice that Dee leaves a gap at the bottom of the foundation so they can build more different sized ones, (probably drone) but the distribution may be diferent than it would have been otherwise. But this is a partial solution that still gives you small cell in the core of the brood nest while allowing more expression by the bees of cell size variation.

I've also noticed the bees tend to build drone brood where they can make the caps stick out further. This is either on comb that is spaced further or on comb the the opposite comb is honey so they can make it shallower to make up for the drone caps.

I've also noticed the queen will lay drone in 7/11 foundation more if it's spaced 9 frames instead of 10.

I wonder if drone tends to be at the bottom of a frame because there is often honey opposite it, so they can make the cell deeper for the drone by cutting down the honey storage cell opposite it?


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