# Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*



JWChesnut said:


> Marin Bee Club sponsored a study by the Bonnie Bee Company with "survivor stock" bees. The study documented massive (68%) second-year losses.
> 
> Bonnie Bee Co. believed it had identified bees in its apiary that had extended summer natural brood breaks. It believed these bees would show high TF survivor attributes.
> 
> ...


I'll go tell my hives in their third year they should be dead by now.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*

Nordak; Here in Arkansas we get 3 years out of any run of the mill colony, especially if they are allowed to swarm or have been split. The latter part of next June, or early July, start paying attention to the brood patterns. Usually they will start showing the removal of dead pupa, or the usual BPMS patterns that mimic EFB. You will have queen failures and crawling bees in the apiary. Some colonies will die in July or August, others will die during the winter. If they survive the 3rd winter and have successful queen supersedures, they will probably become "Survivor" colonies that carry high mite loads, but live.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*



AR Beekeeper said:


> Nordak; Here in Arkansas we get 3 years out of any run of the mill colony, especially if they are allowed to swarm or have been split. The latter part of next June, or early July, start paying attention to the brood patterns. Usually they will start showing the removal of dead pupa, or the usual BPMS patterns that mimic EFB. You will have queen failures and crawling bees in the apiary. Some colonies will die in July or August, others will die during the winter. If they survive the 3rd winter and have successful queen supersedures, they will probably become "Survivor" colonies that carry high mite loads, but live.


Thanks for the info, AR Beekeeper. I will remain vigilant in keeping watch as I have been. I have had problems arise already within my apiary, and have managed to stay on top of it thus far. I think you are correct though, I believe this coming winter and into next year will be the real test. Best to you and your bees.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*

In my third year, still waiting for the collapse. Not saying it won't happen at some point. 

The interesting thing is what happens after a collapse. I know OT went from bad to 0 in his experiment. Some go from bad to better. Context again is important.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*

Like you, I approach success with hesitant optimism. If this year was my last and total collapse happened within the next couple of years, I suppose I would chalk it up to a learning experience and decide where I wanted to go from there. I feel that won't be the case, but I could be entirely wrong.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*

IMO The outside gene pool will make or break them. 

Here's a study from another thread where they showed it's possiable (many more studies just like it, only smaller scale);

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2016.1160709?scroll=top&needAccess=true


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*



FlowerPlanter said:


> IMO The outside gene pool will make or break them.
> 
> Here's a study from another thread where they showed it's possiable (many more studies just like it, only smaller scale);
> 
> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2016.1160709?scroll=top&needAccess=true


More fairy dust from those Europeans


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*

the last time we were provided statistics from marin county the treated cohort also showed higher than average losses, suggesting the area was prone to high losses for whatever reason(s).

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ee-Survey-Hobby-keepers-a-net-population-sink

jwc, did the group publish april 2015 and april 2016 surveys?


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*

I think it is obvious to anyone following these discussions over the years that some areas, with some bee stocks, can be more successful than other areas and bee stocks. It looks like the Marin County area is not one of those areas that is easy to keep TF bees in.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*



squarepeg said:


> the last time we were provided statistics from marin county the treated cohort also showed higher than average losses, suggesting the area was prone to high losses for whatever reason(s).


Marin County is in the San Francisco Bay area, a temperate climate where bees fly and brood year round. In the residential areas there is nectar and pollen available and a winter eucalyptus flow, no brood break. When bees thrive, mites and viruses thrive also. I heard of a queen mated Christmas week in Concord, and suspect we could mate queens all winter. I made walk away splits on 9/5 last year and the successful ones made a great crop.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*

AHH!! The smoking gun!!!!!!!!

I will base my entire opinion on one backyard beekeeper writing in a bee newsletter. Or does this prove Calif has bees with defective genetics? I'll tell my bees they should be dead.

Please note sarcasm font.


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## intothewind (Jul 17, 2016)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*

How important of a metric is the survival of any one colony for longer than 2 years? You are most likely not dealing with the original queen. How do you define a colonies age? Time from package? From nuc?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*

Some queens can survive into her 3rd years.
If so then she's good to graft and label as survivor when somehow they can keep
the mites under control.


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*



intothewind said:


> How important of a metric is the survival of any one colony for longer than 2 years? You are most likely not dealing with the original queen. How do you define a colonies age? Time from package? From nuc?


Agree here - it seems like a strange thing to measure. 



Swarming (splits, division,etc) are natural parts of the bee life cycle, and natural defenses against varroa - that's (one of the reasons) why the africans and japanese bees do so well. If you wanted to study this, you need to allow for splits - and measure the population as a whole, not the original boxes. Early "survivor" lines may only survive at a rate a couple percentage higher than 'non-survivor' lines - its over multiple generations that things get better, and the genes get reinforced.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

*Re: Marin Bee documents 68% losses in professionally managed "survivor stock" trial*



intothewind said:


> How important of a metric is the survival of any one colony for longer than 2 years? You are most likely not dealing with the original queen. How do you define a colonies age? Time from package? From nuc?


In my opinion it's not, the model a lot of us follow here locally is Yr 1 build up, small harvest in fall, Yr 2 production, yr 3 when they start to show signs of dwindling, bust them up into nucs and re-start the cycle. Some folks locally have gotten to the point that yr 3 is also production and yr 4 re-sets the cycle. By doing this, we work with nature and can build a sustainable system. In reality, a 68% loss on the first round of second yr colonies is better than normal, and it USUALLY ( at least here) gets better from there.


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