# Swarm prevention measures - let's hear 'em!



## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

I've had problems with swarming the past 2 years so I assume that I'm not giving them enough space in the brood area. I'm planning to begin the conversion to small cell so I plan to begin inserting foundationless frames in between the drawn comb frames in my hive bodies. If it works like MB and others claim, the bees will begin (eventually) to make smaller cell comb and this will also open up the brood nest and aid in swarm prevention. Right MB?







So I've been reading up on small cell regression here. I'm also considering caging my queen 2-3 weeks before the main nectar flow to maximize honey production but that may be too much experimentation in one season for my taste. 
Other ideas, please....


----------



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

Well you can do all you can do {but} if they decide to leave they will  

I had a package that swarmed with 7 frames drawn and they left 20 swarm cells, now this was when I just started--if I knew then what I know now I would have made a bunch of new queens with them but hind sight is 20/20.

I think that is one of the things that make this hobby so interesting, there are sooo many different ways to do soo many things  

Merry Christmas to all!!!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Prior to swarm season, what are the clues?
let's say I cannot spot "congestion in the brood box." Looks spacious, homey, and decorated by a apis m. stewart. but lets also say the same hive swarmed last year.

Congestion in the brood box is about the only warning that's soon enough to head it off. Once they've made up their mind, it's really too late to do much other than a split.

>Are there general principles/best practices of swarm prevention? 

The one everyone does, and they should, is make sure there are enough supers so they don't run out of room up top. But that is not enough, by itself. You still need to keep the brood nest from getting filled with honey. Walt Wrights method, which I haven't had the chance to try yet, is to intersperse empty drawn combs with full ones over the brood nest. In theory this gives the bees the sense that there aren't a lot of stores yet, so they decide to store honey instead of swarm.

What I do is, as soon as the cluster is strong enough, feed empty frames (no foundation) into the cluster. If the cluster goes all the way across the box, I'll pull some frames of brood up to the next box and fill those spaces with some empty frames. The empty frames, since there are drawn brood combs on each side, don't need starter strips or anything. Just bare frames work the best. The brood frames should be tightly toghter.

>Aggressive cut down splits on every healthy hive? thanks! 

A cut down split is a good way to get a split and good production. But a booming hive int he spring may swarm just before the right time for the cut down.

>If it works like MB and others claim, the bees will begin (eventually) to make smaller cell comb and this will also open up the brood nest and aid in swarm prevention. Right MB?

That has been my experience.

> So I've been reading up on small cell regression here. I'm also considering caging my queen 2-3 weeks before the main nectar flow to maximize honey production

Why not just do a cut down split 2 weeks before and get another hive out of? I suppose if you don't WANT another hive...

>Well you can do all you can do {but} if they decide to leave they will 

And once they've made up their mind your only real hope is to help them do it with a split. And sometimes even THAT doesn't stop them.

>I had a package that swarmed with 7 frames drawn and they left 20 swarm cells, now this was when I just started--if I knew then what I know now I would have made a bunch of new queens with them but hind sight is 20/20.

That's pretty unusual for a package to swarm. It's usually this spring's queen and young bees and a lot of work ahead ofthem to do.

>I think that is one of the things that make this hobby so interesting, there are sooo many different ways to do soo many things 

For sure.


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Swarming starts long before we see any obvious signs such as crowding, queen cells etc. The conept of prevention is a misnomer as it flys in the face of the most fundamental instinct there is, propagation of species.

Young queens and space help limit swarming, also new foundation, distuption of the brood nest (checkerboarding, reversing hive bodies if you run 2)) may help, and sudden depopulatiion (splits, equalization) will also contribute to minimizing swarming as well as increasing production. Having said that in most cases where a hive is "planning" to swarm your manipulations are futile. Once the cells are started concentrate on managing for increase through nucs or splits and swarm catchers. Accept the fact you will a hive or hives that will swarm despite the best efforts. In some cases you'll be there to watch as 15,000 of your favorite bees fly off into the wild blue yonder to start a new life of their own, without you. It will be a wonderful and sad experiance!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The conept of prevention is a misnomer as it flys in the face of the most fundamental instinct there is, propagation of species.

I haven't found prevention that hard if I have the time and pay attention. But often I get busy and things happen.







But if you keep the brood nest open, provide adequate ventilation and room in the supers to store the honey, I don't think it's that Difficult.

>Once the cells are started concentrate on managing for increase through nucs or splits 

That's been my experience. You need to prevent it. Stopping it once they're into that mode has never worked very well unless you do a split and even that doesn't always work.

>Accept the fact you will a hive or hives that will swarm despite the best efforts. 

Maybe. Or maybe I didn't pay enough attention or take the right steps? But yes, swarming is what bees do. Sometimes they will do it no matter what you do. But the majority of the time you should be able to prevent it.


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

All your efforts with swarm prevention and control should be done with the honey flow in mind. Too many people split and do other manipulations to the hive just prior to the main flow. They end up missing the main flow. Your swarm prevention should be at least 30 days prior to the flow. 

Most of the swarm prevention items have been noted. 

Two things you can pick up on when a swarm is about to happen. Bees hanging out in front of the hive even though a flow is on. The other is the monitoring of a couple swarm boxes. Most times the swarm boxes are ignored. But within a day or two of a swarm, even prior to the bees leaving the hive, the swarm boxes will become very active with bees checking them out. I can tell in the morning most times, if a swarm will take flight that day.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the hive that has swarmed has a good chance (25%) of never being queenright again. When one of the farms calls about a swarm, I always ask if they noticed which hive it came from. Thats also very important.


----------



## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

HM, if I could get a hive to swarm and leave 20 queen cells, I'd bee a queen breeder.Can you help me to duplicate that?

Fordguy, the house I just moved out of was about 50 yards from the house. The swarm season was announced by the scouts actually getting into the mud room. I have no idea how they got in but less than a week later the wife called me at work all excited. Two days later the neighbor called with a swarm that turned out not to bee mine.

So if you have bait hives or a location close by that they will investigate, I think scouts are a great warning that the swarm is iminent. If you can time your flow more accurately they won't even get to that point. But if I see scouts, I'm splittin.

Hawk


----------



## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

Mr. hawkins, what could I place on the porch that would be such an early warning system that would attract scouts? I have heard of a bait hive, and I have been thinking of putting a nuc on the porch with lemongrass oil in it, or maybe even killing one of my crazy kamikazee queens and putting her in alcohol, spreading that scent aroudn inside.


----------



## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

If you have 20 hives in the yard, and your swarm-trap is active with scouts, is there an easy way to tell which hives are about to swarm, or do you just have to go through them all?


----------



## Morris (Oct 12, 2004)

Has anyone actually tried the swarm prevention method described by Walter Wright in his book on Nectar Management?


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Click here, then scroll down to the paragraph PREVENTION OF SWARMING

http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=bees;cc=bees;sid=6f1abefb3549e69f6f0f3e94ba99da8a;q1=dynamite;q2=swarming;op2=and;op3=and;rgn=pages;idno=5017631;view=im age;seq=0172


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{I haven't found prevention that hard if I have the time}

MB, I would propose different forces may play into your results than most. You indicated you run 3 yr. old queens which don't have increased swarm tendency over young queens, you have little difficulty preventing swarming. This is contrary to the volumes written and studies done in standardized hives. Although the normal methods mentioned certainly may play a role it may also be a result of a combination of other unique factors in your operation including your feral survivor stock, 11 frame hive bodies, small cell, no medications, isolation, climate and what ever else you do that is "outside the box". Much of what I read about your operation is outside the parameters of what most (not all) beekeepers experiance. We need to factor in the "unique"factors in yours (and other successful) management and their potential impact on mainstream concepts.


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Patrick, 
Going through the hives would be the best. Seeing the swarm boxes with scouts prior to a swarm makes me do a couple things. (If I don't have time to go through hives at that time) I take notice to which has bees hanging out, which ones has less bees at the end of the day, and also to look real good for a swarm in the area, when I return. Even though the bees may not go into a swarm box, many times I can forcast the swarm and look a little more closely and find one nearby.

Even if I miss the swarm, I want to know it happened. This is a good chance to stop afterswarms, and also harvest or take advantage of extra queen cells within the hive. For me, it also means making sure that hive corrects itself as soon as possible. Fixing a queenless hive or losing a swarm is no big deal. Finding a dead hive with three or four boxes filled with wax moths weeks later is the worst.


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Morris:

Several people have. I have told you about him before when we chatted. The hardest thing, maybe not for you since you are savy in this area, is how to adjust his timeline for our area. I have been talking with him a lot lately to nail this down.

Have you read is work?


----------



## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

<going through the hives would be the best.>

How often should I work my hives during swarm season to look for swarm cells etc. Once a week?

<Two things you can pick up on when a swarm is about to happen. Bees hanging out in front of the hive even though a flow is on. The other is the monitoring of a couple swarm boxes.>

I'm going to try putting out a few bait hives this year (really just deeps in a tree with old comb and some lemongrass oil). How far away from my backyard hives should they be?


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

kenpkr,
A four day old egg(I know) or a 1 day old lavae is selected for being a queen(s). (Day one through three, all eggs are fed royal jelly and you may not be able to see much going on, unless the egg is layed in a queen cup.) They would cap these roughly on day nine.

So to stop a swarm and maintain the colony for honey production, etc., at least every 6 days. This is not bad for someone with a couple hives in the back yard. And doing so would be needed mainly during swarm season and during a flow. It may be less important after the flow. Manipulations of the hive with uncapped queen cells will not stop all swarming. Its just you have a whole lot better chance at stopping it prior to the queen cells being capped. (Unless you miss a queen cell which is easy to do.)

Once the queen cells are capped, or in a case where you want to harvest the cells, inspecting the hive at least every 10 days would be needed. They would start with a four day egg(also called a 1 day lavae) and the queen would be hatched on day 16 or earlier.

Inspecting is not hard to do for swarm cells. Looking at known queen "cups" and seeing if any changes happened is easy. And just lifting the boxes up and looking for queen cell hanging down between the frames is also easy.


----------



## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

> Has anyone actually tried the swarm prevention method described by Walter Wright in his book on Nectar Management?


Yes. It works well. I recommend reading his work. You can find it in multiple articles in Bee Culture magazine, as well as buying it directly from him.

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003289#000000


----------



## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

> Congestion in the brood box is about the only warning that's soon enough to head it off. Once they've made up their mind, it's really too late to do much other than a split.


Walt Wright's Nectar Management, or "checkerboarding", information includes some cues to look for prior to the brood nest becoming "congested." These occur at the leading edge of the brood nest as it is expanding during the buildup. According to Walt's (and my) observations, the next step in the swarm process is a reduction in the volume of the broodnest, which results in what the literature describes as congestion. Catching this signal and using Walt's techniques results in a high volume brood nest that creates a lot of bees.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would propose different forces may play into your results than most. You indicated you run 3 yr. old queens which don't have increased swarm tendency over young queens

I don't know if they have increased swarm tendency or not, but if you keep the brood nest open they don't.

> you have little difficulty preventing swarming. This is contrary to the volumes written and studies done in standardized hives. 

Well, you can do the constant swapping of brood chambers, like George Imirie does, or you can do the checkerboarding like Walt Wright does, or you can do "opening the brood nest" as I do and they all result in controling swarming. And they all work in standardized hives with any race of bees that I've seen. Some are just more work for the beekeeper and the bees than others.

>Although the normal methods mentioned certainly may play a role it may also be a result of a combination of other unique factors in your operation including your feral survivor stock, 11 frame hive bodies, small cell, no medications, isolation, climate and what ever else you do that is "outside the box".

Yes, I do a bit outside the box currently. I'm certain the queens wouldn't be viable that long if I were using Checkmite. But I started with standard double deeps and Italians and Buckfasts. I ran that way for 25 years. Then I had some Russians and carniolans and Cordovan Italians. I didn't switch to the ferals, small cell, 11 frames, mediums etc. until the last five or six years and some of that is in the last two or three. I had bees in Western Nebraska, Laramie, Wyoming, Brighton Colorado and Southeastern, Nebraska. I don't see alot of difference with swarming. Certianly adding ventilation helps (which may or may not include some special equipment like slatted racks and top vent boxes) as does leaving out the excluder to give the queen room if she wants it, but other than that opening up the brood nest has always seemed to be pretty effective with any race of bee on any kind of equipment including standard Langstroth double deeps for brood, DE hives, Top Bar Hives or all mediums or all eight frame mediums. Bees are still bees regardless of the equipment.


----------



## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Joel said:



> We need to factor in the "unique"factors in yours (and other successful) management and their potential impact on mainstream concepts.


Joel,

Not sure I understood what you meant by this.

In the case of swarming, I think the mainstream concepts are lacking. Techniques such as those used by Michael, or Walt Wright's checkerboarding methods, at least in my observations, prevent the colonies from accomplishing their swarming goal, regardless of the age of the queen.

In "factoring in" or exploring these methods, why would we be concerned with the impact they may or may not have on mainstream concepts?



> Having said that in most cases where a hive is "planning" to swarm your manipulations are futile.


I very respectfully disagree. If you haven't obtained and read a copy of Walt's Nectar Management, or "checkerboarding" methods and observations, I highly recommend it. Much of what Walt has written flies in the face of "mainstream concepts." Yet he demonstrated them to me in my own hives, and I have been using them for several years with great success.

I believe that every healthy colony begins to "plan" this Spring for next Spring's swarm.

[ December 26, 2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: ikeepbees ]


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>(Day one through three, all eggs are fed royal jelly...

BjornBee, from my reading of the bee books, that isn't 100% true. We had a discussion about 'bee milk', royal jelly, worker jelly about a year ago. The original caste can be changed up to about 3 days, but contrary to popular belief, at least from what I read a worker not intended to be a queen is not fed "royal Jelly" initially.

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002263#000000


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dick,
I will be the first to say that I have not run complete experiments, analysis, and observed many years of research on the matter.

I do rely on many books, publications and others that have. I will refer you to "Honey Bee Biology and Beekeeping" by Dewey Caron, and the information put forth from MAAREC. Page 4.45 It states all lavae is fed royal jelly after the egg hatches.

I know there is contridicting information out there. The actual reference I use suggests that royal jelly is provided to all larvae and sometime between 2.5 and 3 days a change over in quality and quantity occurrs. For practical purposes, a four day egg or a one day lavae (same thing) is the same whether a worker or a queen is developed from that point. There can't be that big of a difference leading up to that point when a queen or a worker can be developed on day four(egg)... Point being that a 1 day larvae can be raised as a queen, so how much difference could there be up to that point.... 

In trying to answer a basic question about when and how often to check for queen cells, I really feel the chemical breakdown and complete analysis of the substance fed to lavae on the first three days of development may be going way over board.

My point was that unless the egg is layed in a queen cup, and observed as so, that for the first three days of an egg's development, you may or may not see any difference. I was trying to answer the main points of queen cell development from a time line, and perhaps the finer points of queen substance that are not clear from one side or the other, could be kept for another day...

[ December 26, 2005, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

And if your going to point out something Dick, how about my comment of the bees feeding eggs??


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried using a fume board to Demaree hives. I know that some people use them to drive the queen down in Autumn, and them restrict the brood nest with a queen excluder. I was just thinking, that when combined with super reversal, this could be used as swarm prevention in the Spring.


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Bjorn, I do have Dewey Caron's book and in last years discussion it was pointed out (by me, of all people  ) that he says all larvae are initially fed royal jelley. James Gould also mentions that in his book 'The Honey Bee'. Mark Winston, Eva Crane both go into greater detail and write about the different make-up of "royal jelly" and "worker jelly" and the fact that royal jelly comes primarily from the mandibular glands while worker jelly is derived more from the hypophryngeal glands. The current edition of THATHB (p.224) also goes into the difference in a bit more detail than either Caron or Gould. Winston, Crane, and Herbert (THATHB) all write that bees originally destined to become workers arent fed royal jelly. None of this is going to make either of us a better beekeeper of course. But neither is much of what has been discussed recently. To paraphrase what Blue.Eyed.Wolf said when asking about water saturated air "I know this has little to do with swarming, but hey, its December." 

I guess I missed the comments about the bees feeding eggs.....????

>I will be the first to say that I have not run complete experiments, analysis, and observed many years of research on the matter.

Me neither.









[ December 26, 2005, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Dick, I always like when people leave lots of wiggle room and gray area. It allows further changing of the comments and rationalization. From what you have read...

>royal jelly comes primarily from 

>worker jelly is derived more from 

Using comments like "primarily from" and "more from" can read a few different ways. So let me ask...

Are you saying all of one kind comes from one source in both examples? Or are you saying that some come from both places and the amounts from the places just change in percentages?

After you answer those questions, my next question is for the make-up and anaysis of what is deemed royal jelly?

If the bees are not inclined to make a queen cell, all eggs prior to hatching are fed the same substance. After hatching, the larvae's food supply is changed to a more worker substance or the food source is enriched further to allow the proper quality of queen cell to be produced. In emergency queen rearing, the food source from the start is enriched with royal jelly. If no need for queen production, I believe the food source of all eggs and 1 day old larvae are the same up to that point. That being something called royal jelly.

I would like to see the report or analysis of what quality food source is given to a simple eggs prior to hatching, and how this is so different from "royal jelly" that it is not called that anymore. I understand after the egg hatches and the bees see no reason to feed the lavae anything beyond what a worker larvae would call for, that something other than royal jelly is provided.

Not counting cells in emergency queen rearing situations that are fed from the start, but just the food source given to eggs prior to hatching in a normal hive situation, that, I would like to see some data on. Not just the assumption and fact that queen food and worker food is different, which is already a given.

Knowing that the bees can and do change the quantity and quality of royal jelly as is needed in an ever changing hive I would like to see the breakdown of what causes the food to an egg and first day larvae to be called something other than royal jelly.

Knowing that the substance after the egg hatches is further changed to a "more" royal jelly for queen production. And that the substance for workers also changes from that given an egg/1 day lavae, to a more worker food source. In both cases, a one or two day old larvae has its food source changed to what the bees decide at that time.

The bees have obviously fed the egg and a 1 or 2 day old lavae something that would still allow it to become a queen. I contend it is something in the middle. Perhaps not the fullest quality of royal jelly, but not just worker jelly either. But like I said, I have not spent years looking at it. And for those you contend did, I hope there is research somewhere.


----------



## Morris (Oct 12, 2004)

Isaac, I finally took you up on your recomendation to read Walter Wright's book. Just finished it. Great book. Sounds like people have had good results with it. Looking forward to trying Walter's method this spring. What about you? Have you tried it yet?

I'm a little hesitant about this method leading to supercedure. Have other people had a problem with this?


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

BjornBee did you actually take the time to read the discussion from a year ago? Ive cut and pasted some of it here for you if you havent. I dont see that I was painting a gray or giving myself wiggle room You have my apologies if that's what you thought I was trying to do. It truly wasn't my intention. 

This is mostly quoted from Mark Winstons Biology of the Honey Bee:

Royal jelly and worker jelly contain secretions from both the mandibular and hypopharyngeal glands. Worker jelly has a ratio of about 2:9:3 of secretions from the mandibular glands, secretions from the hypopharyngeal glands, and pollen, and it is fed to worker larvae for 5 to 6 days.

Royal jelly for the first 3 days of queen larval feeding is made up mostly of mandibular gland secretions. During the last 2 days it has the ratio of 1:1 mandibular gland and hypophryngeal gland secretions. Royal jelly contains 34% sugar compared to 12% sugar in worker jelly. This high sugar concentration stimulates the queen larvae to eat more of the food.

From Cranes Bees and Beekeeping:

Worker larval food was found to contain only 12% sugar up to 1 1/4 days (it probably remained very low up to 2 1/2 days), whereas the food of a queen larva contained much sugar (34%) throughout the period when it was 1 to 4 days old. This high sugar concentration stimulates the larva to eat more of the food, which is provided in excess.

Do those periods mean initially, i.e., from the very start? As I read that there is a difference in the amount of sugar concentration fed to each caste from the beginning.

From Sammataros The Beekeepers Handbook: Two different diets are fed to larvae destined to become worker bees. First, the larvae are lavishly or mass-fed a diet of brood food (sometimes called *worker jelly*), which consists of 60-80 percent *clear fluid* produced by the hypopharyngeal glands of nurse bees and 20-40 percent *milky fluid* produced by their mandibular glands. On the third day, the diet is switched to the clear component only, then to pollen and honey on the remaining days.

Notice most of the brood food is produced from the hypohparyngeal glands with a smaller amount coming from the mandibular glands for the first 3 days.

When queen cells are needed, workers clean the cups or worker cells are modified to become queen cells. Larvae in these cells or cups are mass-fed *royal jelly* during their entire larval development. The royal diet contains several components. For the first three days it consists of white mandibular secretions, after which it is fed in copious amounts as a 1:1 ratio of the white ot clear components of the hypopharyngeal glands, similar to worker jelly.

Notice here that more of the food for a queen larvae comes not from the hypopharyngeal glands as it does for the worker larvae, but instead is derived from the mandibular glands. In fact, for the first three days it comes completely from the manibular glands, while for the worker only about a third of it comes from those glands.

You will have to draw your own conclusions.

[ December 26, 2005, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{Not sure I understood what you meant by this.}

MB has Easy prevention of the most basic instinct there is - propagation of species - using 3 yr old queens(in the face of virtually every study) laying copious amounts of brood, no mite problems due to small cell, no foulbrood w/o medication and no trachael mites I've heard of. Is this your experiance Rob using standardized methods and equipment? Is anyone else on this post having this level of success using standardized equipment and methods? Possibly Bee Wrangler, who ironically appears to use similar methods to MB. I'm saying that MB's operation is performing outside the norm. Since I don't believe his hives are blessed any more than most I have to think it is a result of a unique management program and even more likely a particular combination of methods which are not widely practiced.(yet) Easy swarm prevention with 2 and 3 yr old queens is result of something other than just checkerboarding IMO. 

I won't continue to debate the ease of swarm prevention, I'll just say if it's so easy why have beeks been coming up with new prevention methodolgy for 50 yrs while standing in our yards watching bees fly off? Of course bees don't "decide to swarm" as suggested, it is instinctive behavior. Although crowding may contribute it is not the cause. As my post stated it can be minimized through the methods we all agree on. Ease may be more a factor of running 20 hives vs 120 hives.


----------



## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Whoa, wait. That won't work. Hold the fort. It'll Kill Your Hive. Do I have your attention?

Aspera, You implied overwintering with an excluder holding the queen down in the bottom box. That's murder. The cluster will still move up over the winter and the queen is left down there alone.

Don't do that.

Hawk


----------



## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

I didn't know we were debating, Joel. I really didn't understand your concern as to any impact on mainstream concepts, and still don't.

I don't recall Michael or myself saying it was easy.

No, that is not my experience using "standardized" methods. I have enjoyed zero swarming using Walt Wright's methods, however. The swarms that have occurred were due to a failure on my part to visit a yard in a timely fashion. The fact that it works does not imply that it is easy; you still have to go do it.

Is your opinion regarding checkerboarding based on experience? Have you tried it?


----------



## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

When I 1st started beekeeping it was common to clip the queens wings to prevent the queen from going very far when/if the hive did swarm.


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

BjornBee, hopefully we can come to an agreement.....

>If the bees are not inclined to make a queen cell, all eggs prior to hatching are fed the same substance. 

Yes, we seem to be in agreement with that.

>After hatching, the larvae's food supply is changed to a more worker substance or the food source is enriched further to allow the proper quality of queen cell to be produced. 

Here is where some of our disagreement comes in. As I read what Winston, Crane, Sammataro, Herbert write, it doesnt change to a more worker substance. It already is a more worker substance and stays that way, unless an emergency queen cell is needed, then it will change to a more queen substance.

<In emergency queen rearing, the food source from the start is enriched with royal jelly. 

Here we disagree again. Thats not the way I read it. The brood is already developing toward becoming worker brood. If an emergency queen is needed the food being fed is changed to royal jelly. If the bees are intent on raising swarm queens or supercedure queens, then yes we can say that those particular cells are fed royal jelly from the start. 

>If no need for queen production, I believe the food source of all eggs and 1 day old larvae are the same up to that point. That being something called royal jelly.

Again please read what was written concerning the make-up of royal jelly and worker jelly. As I read it, there is a difference in the two substances fed from the very start.

I may not have understood what I read. If so, and you can convince me that I simply misunderstand, then I have no problem admitting to being wrong. However, Id prefer not to get into a debate simply to have a debate. If thats your pleasure, there are plenty of other folks on here who do enjoy that. 

...and now for the little


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Hawk,

Actually, I was thinking of doing it in late April, as a swarm preventional measure (sort of a lazy beek's Demaree method). I just don't know if it would work. Temperature issues was one of my concerns.

Hal


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MB has Easy prevention of the most basic instinct there is - propagation of species - using 3 yr old queens(in the face of virtually every study) laying copious amounts of brood, no mite problems due to small cell, no foulbrood w/o medication and no trachael mites I've heard of. 

I was havning that same sucess on double deeps with shallows for supers, and large cell foundation for more than a couple of decades before I went to small cell.

>I have to think it is a result of a unique management program and even more likely a particular combination of methods which are not widely practiced.(yet) Easy swarm prevention with 2 and 3 yr old queens is result of something other than just checkerboarding IMO. 

Although I haven't had the opportunity yet to try checkerboarding, I have tried swapping brood boxes (for the first few years I was keeping bees) and opening up the brood nest. In my opinion they all serve the same purpose, which is to fool the bees into expanding the brood nest instead of contracting it at the time they wanted to contract it and prepare to swarm. Swapping brood boxes does this because they have to rearrange the entire brood nest because it's now broken up and all the stores are in the wrong places. As the bees move things around the queen finds places to lay and the brood nest expands. Checkerboarding leaves space directly above the brood nest that give the bees the impression that they don't have enough stores and instead of filling the brood nest they fill those empty frames. Opening up the brood nest works by giving them a space in the brood nest, which the comb builders feel needs to be filled and then the queen feels needs to have eggs and so the brood nest exapnds, instead of contracts. Dee Lusby's "Pyramiding up" is similar with the additive of some brood up in the next box which again expands the brood nest. These methods are all in use by many people who have found them to be very effective.

>I won't continue to debate the ease of swarm prevention, I'll just say if it's so easy why have beeks been coming up with new prevention methodolgy for 50 yrs while standing in our yards watching bees fly off?

I'm sure we all have some bees swarm now and then. But, for me, it's usually when I got busy and didn't do my job. George Imirie, a proponent of the swapping brood box method, seems to think its always the beekeeper's fault. He seems to keep swarming under control. Walt Wright seems to. I seem to. Seems to me a lot of people do ok at it, all using similar principles. The people I know who are not doing well are the ones who believe you can simply add some supers and that will stop them from swarming. This, of course, doesn't hurt and is helpful, but it is not sufficient to stop swarming.

>Of course bees don't "decide to swarm" as suggested, it is instinctive behavior.

Agreed.

>Although crowding may contribute it is not the cause.

Agreed.

>I know that some people use them to drive the queen down in Autumn, and them restrict the brood nest with a queen excluder. 

An Excluder? Through winter? The only time I've ever left an excluder on I lost the queen below the excluder and had a bunch of queenless bees in the spring. Maybe it would work in Georgia or Texas, I don't know, but it didn't work well here. Also, if it's metal, you've got a huge heat sink in the middle of the cluster. That seems like a really bad idea during the winter.


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Please, reread my posts! I never suggested using an excluder in winter. I did suggest applying Morse's autumn brood nest restiction technique in spring colonies as a swarm prevention technique. I take it that no one has tried this?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I never suggested using an excluder in winter.

>>I know that some people use them to drive the queen down in Autumn, and them restrict the brood nest with a queen excluder. I was just thinking, that when combined with super reversal, this could be used as swarm prevention in the Spring. 

I guess I just saw the line "drive the queen down in Autumn, and them restrict the brood nest with a queen excluder". Maybe you were suggesting that you do it in the Spring instead. But that sentence sounds like it's over winter.


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I guess Morse's technique is not commonly practiced. As described in his books, it uses a fume board and excluder for the purpose of producing autumn honey without generating larger brood nests or autumn swarms. Naturally, there is no need to restrict a brood nest in a colony with a non-laying queen. Queens cease laying, and colonies produce no honey during our winters.


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>....colonies produce no honey during our winters.

we also don't get a lot of honey up here in winter


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Although I did hear about some mighty big fish in Alaska....


----------



## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

We had a beekeeper (?) at one of the NYC markets in Jan (as I'm told) that was asked how he produced honey in winter. He told the customer he kept them in a greenhouse. I'm assuming a really, really big green house!


----------



## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Ignore me, Just setting up email notification.

Roy


----------



## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm confused.  I keep reading about honey bees "feeding" eggs royal jelly or worker jelly or other substances. "Feeding" eggs? I would have thought that honey bee eggs, like other insect eggs, would contain a source of nutrients that would provide for the embryos before hatching. How do eggs "eat" the stuff that the bees "feed" them?


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

They don't feed the eggs AFAIK. The egg has a yoke that the embryo feeds on, doesn't it?


----------



## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

That's what *I* thought! I keep reading on this thread about honey bees feeding royal jelly to eggs until the eggs are four days old.


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I made the original mistake of mentioning feeding an egg. If was a half attempt to not confuse or have a newbee be confused on a four day egg with a one day old lavae(one and the same). I ended up confusing myself, or at least not catching this slip. I had mentioned it later(next to last post on page #1) after a few were discussing other items. That or else they understood what I was attempting to say. Or they didn't care. Or.....


----------



## Murphy (Jun 7, 2005)

Hi all,

I have read Walts book and liked it but I am having a hard time with figuring out timing.

Anyone who could help clear this a little bit would be great.

I am thinking of trying Michaels version of using empty frames just because I do not have a lot of extra comb. It sounds very much like what Walt is saying but Walt uses empty drawn comb.

I think that why not everyone does this is it would be a lot of extra work for big operations. Langstroth talks about a similar way in one of his books over a hundred years ago.

Thanks,

Kieran


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It sounds very much like what Walt is saying but Walt uses empty drawn comb.

Actually what Walt is saying is that you leave the brood nest intact and you alternate capped and empty drawn comb over the brood nest. What I'm talking about are empty (I mean empty. No foundation, no comb not anthing) frames in the middle of the brood nest, tightly between two drawn frames. I have tried empty drawn comb, and it works ok too, but does not seem to have quite the same effect.

So the difference has to do MOSTLY with whether we are putting empty space ABOVE the brood nest or IN the brood nest.

What Walt and I have been coresponding about is using a combination of these two techniques.


----------



## Murphy (Jun 7, 2005)

Michael,
That helps, thanks for clarifying.

Kieran


----------



## ainsof (Dec 27, 2005)

Just read about something called a "slatted rack."

Can anyone explain how this device could 'prevent' swarming?


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

A slatted rack provides extra room (about 2" under slats instead of usual 7/8") for bees to use for clustering and maybe to use to cool hive.

Maybe an "open" screened bottom board would be better.


----------



## ainsof (Dec 27, 2005)

Thanks Dave!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The theory was it created a cluster space. The reality is probably that it creates more controled ventilation. The SBB seems to preform the ventilation function and seems to help with swarming anyway.

I would not say that a slatted rack "prevents" swarming. I would say it reduces swarming. It's one tool that will help, but not nearly as much as things that keep the brood nest open.

Lack of ventilation and lack of room in the supers and excess heat are contributing factors, but a brood nest full of honey is what I find is the most crucial.


----------



## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Ignore this. Just setting up email notification.


----------

