# Two larvae in one queen cup?



## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

Ok so after a split, nearly a month later, I'm seeing supersedure cells with larvae in them. This is a first for me (only new to being a beek), so I saw at the bottom of one cell two larvae, I didn't get a photo as the nurse bees were VERY busy feeding them, but this sketch is what I saw: 
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Thomas_J_Janstrom/dualoccupancyQC_zps8e496749.jpg Clearly two larvae, but how? The larvae were ~1.5mm in length at the time.

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Thomas_J_Janstrom/IMG_05971_zps375e0467.jpg this cell is on another frame and is WAY more developed and as you'd expect singularly occupied.

Anyway later today after the clouds break up some more I'll try to get a photo to confirm what is going on......

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Thomas_J_Janstrom/twofer_zps91f54532.jpg This was taken an hour or so ago, really hard to tell, but I'm sure this is the double occupancy queen cell, pity the photo doesn't show much of anything at all.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Clearly two larvae, but how?

Yes, what you sketch is a cell with 2 larvae. Sometimes the queen will lay 2 just in case.
But once they develop the worker bees will choose one to work with. They will not allow 2 queens to develop in a single cell. 
Even the worker cells will sometimes have 2 eggs. But they will not allow 2 workers to occupy a single cell either. So
don't worry about that. Hopefully they will sort that out for you later on. Keep an eye on that cell at day 4 to see if only
one remaining.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Just had a look and while I found that cell, I'm unsure of just what I saw now, I added a bad iPhone pic of it to the original post, but its not going to tell you much. I do know I have a capped queen cell now (different frame) so I think this colony will be queen right again soon. 

Interesting to see the process of supersedure though. I was sure that after I split the colony and didn't see any capped brood it was time to order a queen then I found the QC a couple of days later, but still no capped brood, so Im guessing they didn't take to the new emergency queen and told her as much......


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Make sure that the old queen and the newly hatched virgin queen do not mix inside the same hive.
Otherwise you might loss both if they fight. Or if the old queen swarmed then you will loss your bees
as well. 
Or you can transfer this capped queen cell into a nuc if the original queen is still inside this hive. That
way they are separated and not fight. Is the original queen still inside this hive or she is gone now?
If not then you can let this virgin queen to become a laying queen within a month to head up this hive.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

The original old queen went with a split near a month back, then I left this hive well alone for about two weeks came back to check on progress (hoping to see my first virgin queen really), but could see or find her and there was an ever dwindling number of capped brood cells. So I figured I just didn't find her, so come back in a couple of days to have another look. That was when I started to see new queencups being built. I figured that was really odd so I started inspecting more often (about 2-3days apart) and then I see the cells with larvae in them. All told about 7 cells are with larvae now, one is capped.

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Thomas_J_Janstrom/cappedqueencell_zps9d6bc863.jpg

So I figure I wait out the next 14 or so days and see if I start to see eggs, if not it's newspaper time and back in with the old queen I guess.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

I see, very clear to me now. Why can't you put a new laying queen with this hive then? You cannot
get a hold of a new one? Because the intention is to split this hive in the beginning, you might as 
well get a new queen to continue with it. Or better yet, don't newspaper combine them. Use a frame of eggs from the old
queen so they can make more queen cells. But this will slow you down another month or so before you see
any laying queen. If pic 863.jpg is now inside this hive then in 2 weeks you should have a new virgin queen.
Maybe sooner if it was capped before your last hive check. If you have more than 2 queen cells in this hive
then put in mini queen cages so they will not fight after hatching. This will same all your virgin queens as well.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

You sure you don't have laying workers?
If you split a month ago where are they getting eggs from?
It's common to see multiple larvae in a cell with laying workers and they do make queen cells out of desperation even though the larvae are all drone.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*



jonathan said:


> You sure you don't have laying workers?
> If you split a month ago where are they getting eggs from?
> It's common to see multiple larvae in a cell with laying workers and they do make queen cells out of desperation even though the larvae are all drone.


Jonathan, That's what I'm afraid of. Though there are no other larvae ANYWHERE else in the hive to be seen than in the 5 or so queen cells I found (there was another but it's old brown wax, so probably from last season). So if there was a laying worker I'd expect to see some larvae scattered at random about the place. Really wishing I'd had the time to inspect more in the first two weeks post splitting!

Might just cut my losses and order a queen Monday.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Hi praxis
If you look at this pic from one of my apideas with laying workers you can see several cells with two larvae.
Some of the cells have up to 15 eggs.
When laying workers are starting up I think some of them are laying and other workers are removing eggs from cells so it takes a while to notice the classic pepperpot pattern.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

I've had this happen as well. Checked to see if the new virgin was laying and found no eggs except for one queen cell. Thy remained broodless for a few more weeks. It's now couple of months later and there is a laying queen.

My guess is the first queen started laying and then got killed or lost on a mating flight. So they made a new queen cell. I've noticed when doing splits, that eggs and young larvae disappear when emergency queen cells are being made. So that would be why you didn't see any worker brood cells.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Well now I'm not sure what I should do, I could leave the capped one to emerge and see what comes out (if laying worker I'm expecting a drone), or I could just order a new one Monday and be sure it's all good..... :-/


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

I would let them raise another queen. If you have another hive you can take some brood from, give them a frame with some young larvae or eggs. This will stop laying workers from developing.

If you buy a queen, there could be a Virgin coming and going on mating flights and you miss her when installing the bought queen. Then your bought queen could be killed off.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

My other hive is not very big (nor old), but is growing at a prodigious rate, so I'll see what it can donate to the cause. If I go with this should I remove the existing queen cells at this point or wait and see what happens?


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*



MattDavey said:


> My guess is the first queen started laying and then got killed or lost on a mating flight. So they made a new queen cell.


Queens don't take more mating flights after they have started to lay.
If she had mated and started to lay there would be at least a small amount of sealed brood and there does not appear to be any in this case.
If the queen had laid a bit and then been superseded there would be some brood present, even a small amount.
From the information given so far, and the timings, I think laying workers is the most likely explanation.
Putting in a frame of eggs or small larvae from another colony will do no harm and should help to keep numbers up.
Bear in mind that laying worker colonies can be hard to requeen successfully.
Michael Bush goes through all the options and probabilities on his site.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

You can wait to see what will happen with this queen cell. Just put a frame of young larvae or eggs in there. 
In 3-5 days you should see they make some qcs on this frame. Make sure you note which frame it is you put in.
In 14 days you should see some virgin queens. If not work out then order a laying queen to introduce to this hive.
Other options are available but this one is the most simple to do.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Moved a frame of mostly eggs and young larvae, now to wait and see.....


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

You need to re-title this thread....

Two Larvae....one cup.......


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

I had thought about that, but I didn't want to run afoul of the moderators!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

I tried to change the title on my other thread. Too bad they don't allow that flexibility to change it here.
More fun to see what will develop out of this hive. If there is laying worker then harder for them to build
out the qc. Why would they build another queen cell if they have queens already (laying workers)?
That is why so hard to correct this situation if there is laying workers. Even a new queen bee they will 
try to kill when she smells different by the laying workers or other worker bees. Not that easy to correct this.
Others would just do a shake out instead to get rid of the laying workers. Now I know not to do a walk away
split. Too much issues if not work out. I like the easy OTS notching method better where I can monitor the 
progress from start to finish until the queen is marked.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Last split I did (last year) I purchased a laying queen and had her in there within a week of doing the split. I figured there was enough eggs and young larvae in this one to make it a near sure bet that they could re-queen themselves. LOL live and learn! If this doesn't work then I'll need to find another solution.... 

I could order a queen in the morning and have her on hand by Wednesday morning at the latest, but how to introduce her into a now obviously hostile hive? I left the sugar plug in last time and it worked great, but that was a recently queenless hive, not a laying worker hive.... Guess I have some reading to do!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

I read up on the infos already last year. Every bits of infos in my minds now because this issue very hard to deal with. There are posts 
after posts from people here with many links to argue about what method is better to solve this problem. An amazing thread I would say.
Learned a lot from different perspective here. Many did a shook out because they don't want to deal with laying worker anymore. Too
time consuming and at the end did not work out well for them. I have to say very good luck to you if it works out for you this time.
Getting a queen is easy now in the spring. Imagine I have to paid 3x the price at $36 each in the winter. And they killed 2 of them even
though these are not laying worker but just some aggressive Italian bees I have to dealt with. I pray for you that everything will work
out at the end.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

The thing is being in Australia we are in early fall now, so getting a queen locally will be a bit harder than it was last time I needed one. I might have to order one from up north where it's still quite warm and "summer like" as far the bees are concerned.

One thing I'm not sure about is, should I destroy the queen cells (more than likely occupied with drone larvae/pupa), now that I've gone the transferring brood once a week for three weeks route?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Fall queen is o.k. to over winter with. I don't know how cold is winter there.
Does it snow in your area? They need to build up in population as well as honey stores to
over winter by now. Make sure to feed them too to keep them populated.
The drone/queen cells not an issue now. You need the drones for a mated queen anyways. Since beeks said
the emerging queen will not mate with the same hive drones, you can move them to a different hive also to 
conserve more resources. So no need to destroy the drone cells. At the moment you are not sure if they
really are the drone cells or not, right. 
Schedule wise this will set you back in one month or two. That is not good because you have to baby sit
them all winter long into next spring if they do not have enough stores for going into winter. You can shorten
the time by buying a new queen up north. Do this only if you don't see multiple eggs in a single cell.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

No snow here, in fact our winters are a lot like Florida winters, so I think they will remain active all winter (and there is good forage just about year round here anyway). Well We'll see what we will see. I can keep feeding them brood comb for a bit without over stressing the other hive, both have lots of honey stored (was thinking of robbing the queenless one) so should be ok on that front..... LOL probably should be moving this thread to a more appropriate forum though ;-)

Cheers, and thanks for all the help everyone!!!
Thomas.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

This forum is fine. Because we all lurk on almost all the major ones anyways. You are good!
Yes, you can divide the resources on the queen less hive to give to the other hives as well.
In time you can make more splits from the other hives. Almost right way and not have to deal
with this situation to cut your time one month shorter. One frame of resource from each hive is all you need.
Better than dealing with this unknown, potential drones hive. 
The easiest way is the OTS notch method. Are you familiar with that? It is on here also. Easy to do.
I had 4 beautiful queens all mated using this method. And fun too because the success rate is very 
high. I can do this on every hive too to make 20 queens easily with this method. No special skills or 
equipments are needed.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

If there was a laying worker you would continue to see more and more drone brood (eggs and larvae) in existing frames.

Also, they will make queen cells on the frames you add if they are queenless.

Leave the queen cells and you'll get a queen. The bees know what they are doing.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

I'll be checking on the first donated brood frame tomorrow if the weather clears, rain is really annoying sometimes!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

If your brood frame not ready to hatch then it is still the same as when you put in few days ago.
Not too hurry to check on them now. But maybe just a peek will do to see if any queen cells are made.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

That's the idea. I just want to check to see if queen cells are/have been made. I might also pinch a frame of honey for the hive I'm stealing brood from, figure they might be needing the help. ;-)


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Honey will help but the pollen mix with honey frame will help too. Because they need the pollen to start
brood rearing so more royal jelly to feed the queen larvae.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Yep so true, that protein is the key to healthy brood. Well fingers crossed the weather keeps cooperating and it doesn't rain today.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Well, I checked on the first donated frame of brood, no queen cells built, and it's mostly all capped now, so tomorrow another frame will be inserted and I'll pull a honey/beebread frame to put in the donor hive. No reason they should be over worked for no return. This problem hive is most certainly a laying worker hive,there are so many drones now that it's getting hard to spot workers. If they don't come round soon I might be forced to let the hive die out to be repopulated at a later date.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

I have not deal with drone hives before. What would you say is the estimate of drones versus workers population now?
If even at 80% or above then I am think you are wasting valuable bee resources to try to make a queen. Might as well give them
another queen bee if you have one. Or if you can get one from another stronger hive. The drones are eating like pigs inside my hive. 
And I only have 40 of them in a nuc box. However, the worker bees are quickly taking over because of a good laying queen. I put a new laying spring queen in there too. Nevertheless this is a good learning lesson for us here.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

At this point the drone population would be EASY 20-25% of the colony, if not more. And they are emerging from the eggs laid by workers now too, so another week or two of this and it will be a drone only hive. I think it's a lost cause now, I'll give them this frame, but unless I see a queen cell built that's it. I'll save what honey I can and I'll end up with a mess of drawn comb too, so restarting from a swarm or package come spring will be easier.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*



beepro said:


> beeks said
> the emerging queen will not mate with the same hive drones,


That is not actually true as a virgin queen will mate with any drones in the area irrespective of where they may have come from.

Praxis, I would not waste any more time on that drone layer hive.
If it were mine I would just shake it out in front of another hive.
Concentrate on your other colonies and make sure they are well prepared for winter.
A colony with laying workers is rarely worth the bother.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

The reason I've persisted with it so long is that it's one of the two hives I have..... Sigh, well one hive now.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

You are right, Jonathan. There are drone congregation areas within the hive place. Who knows what drone
come from which hive, right. This is not an isolated hive area anyway. Thanks you for the correction.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

I think you can split the strong hive into a nuc. Now you have 2 nucs 5 frames in each.
Be careful though that they might make more queen cells than you can handle. Or buy a 
queen for your split too. Two fall nucs going into winter.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

And we have queen cups on the first frame of donated brood, three atm, I added another frame of mostly eggs seeing as it looks like progress is finally being made. If this doesn't work I'll shake them out in front of my other hive and call it quits.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

Ok, so after 6 frames of brood, and and doing a dummy split on my other hive (tricked them into raising a queen to 1 day before capping), my laying worker hive is now queen right. more than two months of hard work and finally I find the new queen, no eggs as yet, but she is big and she is beautiful! I can go into winter with a bit less to worry about now.... Thanks to everyone who helped, it really was a team effort this time!


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

You are not quite out of the woods yet! If she does not mate within 25 days or so from emergence she will never mate and will be a drone laying queen.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

No I found her yesterday, and she looks like the laying queen in the other hive, long 'sexy' abdomen and small wings (she is a bit darker in colour though), I bet if I'd brushed some of the bees of the frame I found her on I'd have seen eggs in the cells, but it was a cool morning (just shy of 50F), but I'm flat out with college atm as exams are coming up fast and I need to get work done, so I took the chance that it would be ok on still cool but very sunny morning......


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

You should be able to tell if she is mated by the way she walks and the way the workers behave towards her.
A virgin queen moves much more quickly and the workers tend to show her a lot less attention.
But finding sealed worker brood is what you really want to see.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

When I found her she was just "sauntering" along and had workers milling around her, mostly facing her, so I think she's mated and producing pheromones. I'm hoping for a warm fall day tomorrow so I can take a better look and hopefully find some sealed worker brood.... 

I'm pretty sure I know the day she went on her mating flight (16th May,a fine hot fall day) as the activity in and around the hive on that day was quite unlike the norm, and I could smell the "hive smell" some 40' away from the hive..... BTW by hive smell I mean that intoxicating honey/wax/bee smell, that I normally only can smell right close to the hive or when I pop the top on them.

Anyway I guess time will tell, but everything points to her being mated, so now she just needs to get laying. I also need to reduce the hive volume, they are quite a small colony now :-/


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

That all sounds good.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

No capped brood as yet, but I found a frame with a tight egg pattern, single egg dead center of each cell, so I'm guessing she's started laying. Fingers crossed next week (weather permitting) I'll see some capped worker brood. Lord knows this hive needs the warm bodies!

One thing I did notice I have a LOT of carnolian drones in this Italian hive, and quite a few "grey" bodied workers too, so I'm wondering if I haven't had a bit of drift from another beek's hive. Though as far as I know mine are the only hives within ~3miles of my bee yard.


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## praxis178 (Dec 26, 2012)

*Re: Two larvae in one queen cell?*

I have worker brood, capped, and LOTS of larvae and eggs in the hive now, about time too, the population is beginning to seriously decline now.....


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