# R-value of 1 inch vs. 3/4 inch pine.



## RiodeLobo

I was wondering if any one knows what the difference in the insulation value of true 1 inch pine vs. the standard 1 x 12(3/4 inch)?
Thanks 
Dan


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## Solomon Parker

The R-value for wood ranges between 1.41 per inch (2.54 cm) for most softwoods and 0.71 for most hardwoods. 3/4" would be 3/4 of 1.4 or about 1.


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## beeware10

If the previous post is correct it would be 1.06 vs 1.41. reguardless the difference is meaningless fo all practical purposes in wintering bees.


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## Solomon Parker

The previous post is correct, bees do not make heat with the intention of heating the inside of the hive. The ambient temperature of the inside of the hive but outside the cluster is far lower than the temperature within the cluster except for directly above the cluster where heated air rises.

http://www.opticsinfobase.org/view_...09132.pdf?da=1&id=209132&seq=0&mobile=no&org=


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## RiodeLobo

Thanks.


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## sqkcrk

W/ the relative meaninglessness, I would tend towards what is most convenient and economical for the beekeeper.


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## Daniel Y

On the issue of "Do the bees heat the hive" I have to agree that they do not. The first evidence I see is that it is well known the bees must rotate to the center of the cluster to remain alive. The outer layers of the cluster already are so cold that it is fatal to the bees if they are not able to move to the warmer center. Although there may be some heat escape the cluster and obviously warm the hive to a slight degree. I believe this warming of the hive would be insignificant at best and obviously not enough to protect the bees.
I believe the bees provide their own insulation. bees at the center of the cluster are producing heat by vibrating their muscles. Image shivering. this heat travels outward from the cluster and is absorbed by the colder bees at the edges. Still this is not enough energy to keep them warm enough and eventually they must move to the center and begin to generate their own heat.
I tend to look at the warmth in a hive is an individual bee thing rather than an entire cluster or hive situation. Unless you are going to knit a sweater for every bee in the hive. conservation of heat is a waste of time. the heat for the most part is gone before it ever gets out of the cluster.


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## dgl1948

Daniel Y said:


> I tend to look at the warmth in a hive is an individual bee thing rather than an entire cluster or hive situation. Unless you are going to knit a sweater for every bee in the hive. conservation of heat is a waste of time. the heat for the most part is gone before it ever gets out of the cluster.


I do not agree with this statement. In our part of the world we wrap our hives to help conserve some of the heat that is being lost from the cluster. (Far easier than putting sweaters on bees) I check hives throughout the winter using an infared thermometer that will shoot a beam through the top entrance of the hive. If the inside temp is the same as the outside I have a dead hive. The real strong hives can have a temp varation of 25 degrees C. from inside to outside.


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## mgolden

What are you using for insulating on outside and also top cover and bottom board??? What is your entrance reducer size and top entrance size? I am a new beekeeper and want to check what I have done for winter prep.


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## Kieck

Old argument: do bees heat the inside of the hive, or just heat themselves? Whether intentional or not, plenty of heat must escape the cluster and warm the inside of the hive. Otherwise, bees must be almost perfect insulators. I wonder what the R-value of bees is?


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## Solomon Parker

Kieck said:


> Otherwise, bees must be almost perfect insulators.


Straw-man argument.


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## guyross

I built a few heavy tops from 3/4 treated ply banded with 1x4. To prevent the bee from contacting the ply I put the blue sheathing board insulation inside. I'm not sure the R factor but they chewed it so I covered it with 1/4 ply. Did I say these tops were heavy?


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## Bush_84

What about when the cluster fills the entirety of the hive? Would you say that the insulation value of the wood matters then? With Warre hives they are built to essentially have the internal dimensions of the average winter cluster. So a cluster may fill the hive wall to wall (I suppose the corners of the box may be an exception).


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## Kieck

Solomon Parker said:


> Straw-man argument.


How so? Explain to me, please, how it is that bees could retain all the heat they generate within a cluster and _not_ be "perfect insulators?"


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## dgl1948

mgolden said:


> What are you using for insulating on outside and also top cover and bottom board??? What is your entrance reducer size and top entrance size? I am a new beekeeper and want to check what I have done for winter prep.


I use the wraps from Bee Maid honey out of Winnipeg ( R8 wraps and R20 tops) with plywood over the top cover and 4 hives to a wrap. Entrances are reduced to 3/8 of an inch and top entrances are about 3/8 by 1 1/2 inches. We try to keep the yards where they are shelterd from the wind as much as possable.


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## Bil

Kieck said:


> Old argument: do bees heat the inside of the hive, or just heat themselves? Whether intentional or not, plenty of heat must escape the cluster and warm the inside of the hive. Otherwise, bees must be almost perfect insulators. I wonder what the R-value of bees is?


Last year I ran an experiment with digital thermometers in different parts of a hive. Typically with 6.5°C exterior temperature I had 35.1° in the cluster, 11.3° in the hive and 21.9°C above the cluster.


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## Daniel Y

Temperature difference inside and outside the hive will be different. but for many and complicated reasons. That the air in the hive is not moving as much is just one. that the hive body itself is a thermal battery is another. that everything in the hive is a thermal battery. The air loosing heat and falling to a lower temperature is not in indication that the thermal mass of a hive will do likewise. At least not at the same rate. air can drop in temperature in seconds. the hive may require days for the same thermal loss. That the temperature inside the hive is higher than the outside air is no indication that the bees are warming it. It may be that the hive is warming the bees. If insulation works so be it. as to the why, that is obviously a question no one has answered.


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## The Honey Girl's Boy

Going along with Bush 84 and the Warre analogy. I would like to add to create water the warm humid air coming off the bee cluster must meet a surface that is cold because of cold still air. I call it “dead air”. If there is a pocket of cold dead air near the cluster it will draw heat from the cluster and form condensation. The cluster its self losses heat and humidity, if that were not true we would have no condensation problem in the hive. Yes, I agree the bees are not trying to heat the dead air in the hive, but they are losing heat into the dead air spaces in the hive. Now you have several choices to eliminate condensation- make the dead air move out of the hive by ventilating, enhance the ability for the bees to warm the dead air in the hive by insulating, or eliminate the dead air spaces by reducing the space the bees to cluster in. I have seen the clusters in my Warres in the winter and it is a solid mass, every inch has something in it, bees, comb, and bars. There is no dead air in the box. There is a gentle rise of heat and humidity from the cluster into the quilt over them. They warm the shavings in the quilt and the humidity condensates on the top layer of the shavings where the warm humid air reaches cold dead air just under the top board covering the quilt.
Ernie -


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## beehonest

Whether they bees heat themselves or the inside the hive or how it actualy happens. I think it's safe to say that that the more insulation the less they have to work to keep heat. And that would mean less stress, and less food to do it. Which I think is a good thing. But I am sure there will be arguments about that also. I agree with a couple of the others, I don't think that 1"vs 3/4" is enough R value to concern yourself over.


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## Bush_84

What about 3/4 vs 1 1/2?


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## beehonest

I think if you are concearned about insulation. Just wrap the outside with construction foam board and tape the seams with duck tape. That is what I do, I got a scrap piece from home depot for $5. By the time you get the wood thick enough to make a real difference it would be to heavy to work with, especialy filled with honey.


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## Bil

Bush_84 said:


> What about when the cluster fills the entirety of the hive? Would you say that the insulation value of the wood matters then? With Warre hives they are built to essentially have the internal dimensions of the average winter cluster. So a cluster may fill the hive wall to wall (I suppose the corners of the box may be an exception).


Based on temperature readings over the winter months, I can say that: 
1 The temperature in the cluster was a steady 31 to 35°C
2 The temperature inside the box but outside the cluster was about 20°C less but always higher than the exterior temperature in winter months.
3 The temperature above the cluster was only 12° less than the cluster.
So, the cluster heats its self and looses a little heat to the interior of the hive. I can add from personal observations that the winter clusters in my Warrés are not wall to wall. There is always vacant space between the outside frames/combs and the side walls
Somewhere out there, there is research which shows that, with the exception of extreme winter climates, insulating hives in winter will lead to stores being consumed more rapidly and potential starvation.


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## pascopol

Daniel Y said:


> On the issue of "Do the bees heat the hive" I have to agree


If one believes laws of physics the bees do heat the hive since they have to constantly generate heat . There is no perfect insulation material in our universe, heat travels from the object having higher temperature to object having lower temperature.

One can only discuss or measure amount of heat the cluster looses. Whatever amount it is this heat warms the hive since it can not just disappear or dissipate into nothingness.

Also some beeks in cold climates here and around the World wrap the hives for winter providing better insulation.
They would not do it if it would not help wintering their bees in their particular location.

This is not to say than wrapping beehives would always work in any climate, since other factors mostly humidity and potential condensation may play a role.


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## Catsailor2008

Bush_84 said:


> What about 3/4 vs 1 1/2?


.94 vs 1.88


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## jtgoral

pascopol said:


> If one believes laws of physics the bees do heat the hive since they have to constantly generate heat . There is no perfect insulation material in our universe, heat travels from the object having higher temperature to object having lower temperature.
> 
> One can only discuss or measure amount of heat the cluster looses. Whatever amount it is this heat warms the hive since it can not just disappear or dissipate into nothingness.
> 
> Also some beeks in cold climates here and around the World wrap the hives for winter providing better insulation.
> They would not do it if it would not help wintering their bees in their particular location.
> 
> This is not to say than wrapping beehives would always work in any climate, since other factors mostly humidity and potential condensation may play a role.


Insulation works in any climate. This is why Florida has insulation requirement for houses not far away from Alaska requirements. If it works for heat in Florida it works for protecting hives from the summer heat, too.


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