# bees tearing down cells?



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Queen emergence can vary a lot by temperature. I've seen them emerge as early as 14 in really hot weather and as late as day 18 in cold weather.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks Michael.

this was day 13 (from the day the queen was caged) and from the dull blue eyes on the two cells I opened, it was probably more like day 12 (from when the egg was layed).

Ever seen them emerge that early?

Also, ever seen worker bees tear cells down that late?

What does it look like when worker bees tear down a cell - careful round hole at the bottom or total destruction?

Do you generaly use cell protectors and if so, when do you put them on?


-fafrd

p.s. out weather has been in the 60s day (50s night) so not very hot. The hive is a triple medium and I have the cells above an excluder in the top medium.


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## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

I am a little confused, were these cells from grafts or from the Nicot? If they were from grafts, is there not the possiblity you grafted some older larvae for those that emerged? Although that would be strange that only the unprotected cells were the older ones.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

jdpro5010,

I use the term 'graft' to include the process of transfering the cups with 1-2 day-old larvae from horizontal within the Nicot cage to vertical on the top bar.

This was day 13 from when the queen was first placed in the cage, so no cell could have been more mature than day 13, and the two cells I opened looked like they were closer to day 12 (meaning the queen layed into then 12-24 hours after being caged).

The strange things are that the last time this happened to me, I never did find a queen and all of the cells looked emerged rather than torn down by a virgin.

So pretty sure the larvae could not be more than day 13 and I am trying to understand if the bees ever enter a cell to pull out the developing queen between days 10 and 13 and what it looks like when they do (and knowing why would also be helpful ).


-fafrd


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Ever seen them emerge that early?

14 and 1/2 is the earliest I've seen and the weather was very hot.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks Michael. These cells can't have been more than day 13 and it was not very hot, so they must have been aborted. Have you ever seen cells opened up by the bees late (day 10-13)?? Any reason you can think of for why this might be more likely to happen with a larger number of cells (10-20) than a very small number (3-6)? Do you typically use protectors when you raise queens and if so, when do you put them on?

-fafrd


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you typically use protectors when you raise queens

No. I bought a bunch and tried them a few times and now never use them.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

did you make sure that the cells were cleaned out between reusing the nicot? I once reused it a day later without making sure that all the cells were empty. the eggs were still viable and had large lava in the cells when I went to putll the plugs.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

I lost 60 cells with the queen below excluder method. Never found the culprit. So my assumption was that the queen somehow made it through the excluder?

I had a batch that emerged at 13.75 days, they were in an incubator in my barn but the outside temps. were around 100 F. These were grafted cells so they could have been slightly older than 12 hours post hatch.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

wildbranch2007 said:


> did you make sure that the cells were cleaned out between reusing the nicot?


Cells were clean before queen was caged. I clean the wax off the edge of the cup and clean the bottom of the cup using a Q-Tip and inspect with a magnifying glass. DOn't think dirty cells could be the cause (also because the cells in question all had cells successfully started and capped).

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

muskratcreekhoney said:


> I lost 60 cells with the queen below excluder method. Never found the culprit. So my assumption was that the queen somehow made it through the excluder?


muskratcreekhoney,

thanks for the post - sounds like you have experienced something like what I saw. Never considered the queen slipping through the excluder, but perhaps when there are more cells (16 versus 6) the queen has more motivation to do so? Can I ask what the cells you lost looked like? Did they look like they had been entered into from the side such as when a virgin attacks a cell, or did they have neat round openings from the bottom, like when a virgin successfully emerges?

Also, now that you remind me, the first time I saw this, it was in a qeenless finisher, so the 'queen slipping through the excluder' cannot be the reason (at least in my first case). The first time, I had assumed that a virgin queen emerged early (day 14) and wiped out the other cells, but this time, it was day 12-13, so the only explanation that makes senseis is that the workers aborted the cells early (or your queen slipping through the excluder theory).

Based on your suggestion, I will probably go back to a queenless finisher next time I try 20 cells...


-fafrd


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

> Can I ask what the cells you lost looked like?


I just don't remember. All I remember is that heart sinking feeling when I pulled the cells. I had a local beekeeper who wanted all of them. I was just looking at my notes and it wasn't 60 it was 90.



> Based on your suggestion, I will probably go back to a queenless finisher next time I try 20 cells...


I myself will continue using queen below finisher, however I will be using queen cell protectors. Let me rephrase that, I will be using queen cell protectors properly!


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

So... One question goes unanswered. Will workers tear down queen cells?


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

muskratcreekhoney said:


> So... One question goes unanswered. Will workers tear down queen cells?


Absolutely - anyone have any insight into that question? (and specifically, workers tearing down cells between days 10 and 13? and also why?)

Also, muskratcreekhoney, when do you put on your queen cell protectors and do you put them in place with bottoms open or bottoms closed?

-fafrd


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

I put them on, cell protectors, shortly after the cells are sealed. You must cover the bottom of the cell protectors, i.e. put them all in a holding frame, or they are worthless for protecting against a stray virgin. It pains me to admit this but I thought that the queen cell protectors some how protected the cells from destruction even with the hole in the bottom, rookie mistake.
I use JZBZ'S so you need to get the new queen cell protectors ( yellow color) not the old orange color. The new ones fit tighter into the storage bar.

http://www.jzsbzs.com/PARTS-WE-SUPPLY.html

Added link so you could see what a storage bar looks like if your not familiar with them, being that your using the Nicot system I don't know if it's useful to you. Notice that the new queen cell protector is not shown on this page.


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## sailing718 (Apr 18, 2011)

Intresting?.. I have no real expertise in rasing queens other than in a queen less hive. I thought you remove the cells and bank them till they emerge?


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Yes, you can let them emerge into a cage. This virgin would then have to be introduced into a colony. If you plant a queen cell directly into a colony you eliminate having to put the virgin into an introduction cage. Less steps in using queen cells which means more money in your pocket if you have many colonies to requeen. Apparently you get better acceptance with a queen cell vs. virgin which would also save some labor cost.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Heres what I am thinking...I have seen that happen before. Some times the bees with draw out the full cell and there will be nothing in there...or they had to many and pulled the larvae out and left the cell...do not know but it does happen. Have even seen them cap empties.....
mike


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

If a laying queen is able to take a walk into the queenless box with your sealed cells does she do the dirty work herself or do the workers sense that all these cells are no longer needed? In the situation that I had I can't imagine one queen doing all that damage!


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> I have seen that happen before. Some times the bees had to many cells and pulled the larvae out and left the cell...do not know but it does happen.
> mike


Mike,

do you recall what the cells looked like when you saw the worker bees pull out the larvae? Like they had emerged successfully (neat hole at the bottom), like they had been attacked by a virgin (gash into the side) or something different? Also, do you recall roughly what period you have seen cells aborted by the bees - was it day 9-13 or earlier?

My protected cells all emerged successfully yesterday (into cages) and the mysterious days 12/13 unprotected cells look exactly like the protected cells which emerged successfully on day 15.

This is my first experience using cell protectors, but so far, I do not see any downside to using them - the cells have emerged fine without the nurse bees having any access.

Would love to solve this mystery, but in the meantime, I think I am going to begin putting cell protectors in place on day 10 or 11 from now on...

-fafrd


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## FarmerFrazier (Oct 12, 2010)

muskratcreekhoney said:


> If a laying queen is able to take a walk into the queenless box with your sealed cells does she do the dirty work herself or do the workers sense that all these cells are no longer needed? In the situation that I had I can't imagine one queen doing all that damage!


It is my understanding that the queen does the dirty work herself by uncapping and stinging the other queens. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

muskratcreekhoney said:


> I put them on, cell protectors, shortly after the cells are sealed. You must cover the bottom of the cell protectors, i.e. put them all in a holding frame, or they are worthless for protecting against a stray virgin.


Thanks muskratcreekhoney. The cell protectors that come with the Nicot system are 'hair rollers' that slip around the cell from below right onto the top-bar. They have a snap-cap on the bottom that can be left open or snapped closed. Pretty covenient. I protected half of my cells around day 9/10 with the bottom cap snapped closed (no access to the cells for the worker bees) and all of those cells have now emerged successfully. From this experience, I do not see any downside to protecting the cells after they are capped and plan to do so from now on (as you do).

In general, I plan to harvest my cells before they have emerged (day 14) and place them into mating nucs, but now that I have a few virgins in cages, how long can they be banked in that way before they need to be introduced into a mating nuc? My mating nucs are currently full, so can I afford to wait 10 days, check for brood/eggs, and if none (or no virgin) introduce one of the banked virgins in replacement?

-fafrd


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## Brenton (Jun 24, 2010)

I know it is a little different than queen rearing but I have a observation hive I put together with a frame of eggs and brood, they built up 7 queen cells and capped them, I checked yesterday and they were tearing down all but 2 and those should emerge hopefully today. Why wouldnt they just let them emerge, can they sense if the possible queen is a bad one before they emerge?


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks Brenton, this is interesting. Two questions for you:

1/ how big is you observation hive (how many frames and of what type - deep or medium)?

2/ any idea how many days following capping that the cells were torn down - you make it sound like they were tearing the cells down yesterday and that you expect the remaining cells to emerge today - that makes it sound like they were tearing down the cells on day 14 or 15 - 6 or 7 days following capping - can you confirm?

-fafrd


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## Brenton (Jun 24, 2010)

The hive is 2 deep frames and 1 med at the top, plasticell foundation already drawn for the 2 deeps and i have a starter strip for the med. when they get up in numbers for them to draw out.

Yes, that is exactly what they were doing, my daughter is keeping an eye on them today to let me know if they emerge while I am at work. The frame was taken from the hive that was originally in the ob. hive and after they outgrew it I placed them in a full size hive. The frame had eggs and uncapped brood of all ages, so they had a good selction to draw from to make queens.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks. So it sounds like you are seeing evidence that a very small nuc will start more queen cells than needed and then select a few best cells to reach emergence late in the process. I would be very interested in anyting you or your daughter could tell me about the manner in which the bees tear down the cell - do they open the cell from the bottom or cut in from the side?

-fafrd


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## Brenton (Jun 24, 2010)

Out of the 7, I only saw one being torn down and they had already started when I noticed, and from the looks of it they started from the middle, the others were done during the night.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

> how long can they be banked in that way before they need to be introduced into a mating nuc?


I have read that they should be introduced within a week, but I would think 10 days would be reasonable. I personally have used a few that were a week old with no problem. I however would like to hear the opinions of some more experienced beekeepers since I am new at it.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

fafrd - what kind of cell builder are you using?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

fafrd said:


> I protected half of my cells around day 9/10 with the bottom cap snapped closed (no access to the cells for the worker bees) and all of those cells have now emerged successfully.
> -fafrd


The only concern I have with the cages installed so early (day 9/10) is that the hair roller cage keeps the bees a distance away from the cell, which may have a negative impact on the developing queens if tempertures drop. Is this a valid concern?


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