# Thought I was Treatment Free



## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

I thought I was treatment free because I do not use any chemicals in my hives. In addition I live in an area where generally there are no field crops that are treated with insecticides or other adverse chemicals. I can not account for the locations that my bee travel so that is always an issue that is out of control. Today I read a research article about the contaminants that are found in commercially produced bees wax foundations. I was not surprised because I purchase a substantial amount of bees wax to make candles and I have observed the poor qaulity of some wax and recognize that some wax is from the lower brood boxes used by many commercial beekeepers and others, and it is this wax that probably finds its way into the foundations made by the major companies that sell hives and related beekeeping material. So although I may not desire to treat my hives with chemicals it is very possible the so called store bought frames and foundations are already contaminated and the honey I produce and thought was clean of chemicals could e exposed to contaminated foundation bees wax. This is like a viscous cycle where it seems impossible to keep clean hives. From now on I will the folks that I sell honey to that I do not use any chemicals in my hives, but that does not mean my hives are chemical free. I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Start your own wax cycle. This way your wax gets cleaner, little by little, if you don´t treat.

In Finland my "beeswax factory", Lahtisen vahavalimo http://www.lahtisenvahavalimo.fi/, can make separately your own wax (cleaned and as foundations) if you have a lot of minimum 150kg. If you don´t have the quantity needed, then you can use solar wax melters and make foundations yourself. Solarwax melter you can even do yourself, too. Just some windowclass and plywood.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Juhani,

I'd love to make my own foundation out of my cappings. Is there a way that is not too expensive for a hobbyist beekeeper?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

heaflaw said:


> Juhani,
> 
> I'd love to make my own foundation out of my cappings. Is there a way that is not too expensive for a hobbyist beekeeper?


In this page the cheapest molds are made from silicon:

http://www.swienty.com/shop/default.asp?catid=1121

There is also a little solarwax melter:

http://www.swienty.com/shop/default.asp?catid=1123

There are propably similar products in the US beekeeping shops.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

You can do without foundation.

I've really enjoyed my foundationless hives. The comb is beautiful, and the bees get to make exactly what they need. You still can't control what the bees bring in, but at least you're starting with the cleanest wax available-- right from the bees.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks, I'll check it out.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

I use foundation-less as well, and try to rotate out my foundation on a three to four year schedual.. but I live in farm country so the dangers are more prevalent.
sd I understand it, there is NO SOURCE of wax, either in foundation form or block form that is completely free of contamination. Wonderful world we live in huh?
I am not treatment free by any measure, but try to limit as much as possible what i put into my hives.. then of course... I read about how Older fopundation.. four to five years has been shown to increase the survivability of brood... sigh.... Sometimes i wonder WHY I decided to be a beekeeper.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SS1 said:


> then of course... I read about how Older fopundation.. four to five years has been shown to increase the survivability of brood...


What is that SS1?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Even if you don't put any chemical pesticides in your hive the bees will. They pick it up from the environment.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Yes there may be some contamination in the wax you purchase but the amount is small - as Mark writes your bees will pick up more from the environment.

Read up on the CNG standards - they may make sense for you.

I am alarmed by what is allowed under USDA Organic standards - some of the synthetics pose much less hazard to the bees and the applicator.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You could also buy plastic foundation without wax coating, and use your own wax from foundation less hives to prep it. But of course then the evil gets in your hives by way of plastic. If you do succeed in producing contaminant free honey and the price doesn't make you blush and stammer when you say it - it's too cheap.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>This is like a viscous cycle where it seems impossible to keep clean hives.

Not impossible. I recommend foundationless. It is much less work than making your own foundation, which is really the only other way to keep the wax clean.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm


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## Kofu (Jan 26, 2011)

Juhani Lunden said:


> In this page the cheapest molds are made from silicon: http://www.swienty.com/shop/default.asp?catid=1121


Can't read all of it, but Google tells me "1859 Danish Krone equals 341.57 US Dollar." For the full foundation press Tavlestøbeform(?), "8850 Danish Krone equals 1625.02 US Dollar." In that neighborhood, depending on which item.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Several of the US suppliers have presses. They aren't cheap...


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

We have a guy in our association with a press. If you bring him wax he will return you sheets from the wax you gave him in whatever size you want. He keeps a percentage of the wax for himself. I have started letting my colonies draw some of their own comb. I just insert a frame with a double strand of fishing line between two nicely drawn frames. In a strong colony it will be drawn out and laid up in 24 hours.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

What about unwaxed plastic foundation? You can coat it in your own wax, and that would be far easier than pressing your own foundation, if the foundationless frames are not for you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Andrew Dewey said:


> Yes there may be some contamination in the wax you purchase but the amount is small - as Mark writes your bees will pick up more from the environment.
> 
> Read up on the CNG standards - they may make sense for you.
> 
> I am alarmed by what is allowed under USDA Organic standards - some of the synthetics pose much less hazard to the bees and the applicator.


Andrew, maybe the standards are an indication that what is allowed can't be lower? There is no way to get to zero or below detectable levels.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Several of the US suppliers have presses. They aren't cheap...


Barry has one he isn't using.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

woodedareas said:


> I thought I was treatment free because I do not use any chemicals in my hives.


If you would kindly read the definition of treatments for this forum, you would find that you are treatment free and you are asking a question relating to a different subject perhaps better falling under the headings "organic" or "natural."


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

I have read the definition very carefully and I respectfully disagree. Since I read legal documents and definitions almost everyday aim satisfied I am in the right place. What is the purpose of your comment other than tone argumentative? I have learned a great deal from this thread and I am certain other have also found this subject to be informative. In particular I will be very careful about expelling the possibility of chemical pollutants in my hives even though I do not personally introduce them.


Solomon Parker said:


> If you would kindly read the definition of treatments for this forum, you would find that you are treatment free and you are asking a question relating to a different subject perhaps better falling under the headings "organic" or "natural."


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

woodedareas said:


> What is the purpose of your comment other than tone argumentative?


We get a lot of argumentative people in here who want to argue about things like "wax dipping hives is a treatment," "there is no such thing as treatment-free beekeeping when you use contaminated foundation," or "boxes are treatments (all caps rage)."

While I am fully aware of the existence of man-made chemicals in wax, I flatly reject the idea that the chemicals that come in wax foundation have anything to do with treatment-free beekeeping. So when you tie the two, I'm going to speak up. That is the purpose of forums. This is not a place where agreement is expected, or even it seems possible, and thus, not only can your conclusions be questioned, but also your questions.

You'll notice that according to the definitions, treatments are placed in hives with the purpose of affecting a disease, not relating to chemicals that make it into the hives under other circumstances. So I will reiterate the point that chemicals in wax foundation have nothing to do with treatment-free beekeeping and are more appropriately categorized under "natural" or "organic." This is not an argumentative statement, it is no insult pointed in your direction, it is a factual statement and intended to maintain accurate definitions of concepts.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

woodedareas said:


> I thought I was treatment free because I do not use any chemicals in my hives. . . . So although I may not desire to treat my hives with chemicals it is very possible the so called store bought frames and foundations are already contaminated and the honey I produce and thought was clean of chemicals could e exposed to contaminated foundation bees wax. This is like a viscous cycle where it seems impossible to keep clean hives. From now on I will the folks that I sell honey to that I do not use any chemicals in my hives, but that does not mean my hives are chemical free. I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter.


It seems to me that you are confusing "treatment free" with "organic". The commercial foundation does not contain a treatment intended to fix or cure anything so it is considered acceptable treatment-free practice. It is not organic, however, because it can and does contain chemicals that do not meet organic criteria. IMO it is physically impossible to produce true organic honey because we have no control over where the bees collect their nectar and pollen. Short of locking them inside the hive and feeding them continuously, I see no way to produce chemical/contaminant-free honey.

The best "cure" for contaminants in your comb is to go entirely foundationless. It takes a bit more effort but is the only way I know that you will avoid chemicals and pollutants. But even then the bees themselves will continue to bring contaminants into the hives.

Solomon Parker is just trying to say that this forum is about being treatment free and that the definition of treatment free does not necessarily include being organic. There are treatments that are considered organic and by the definition of treatment free, they do not fit in here.

HTH

Rusty


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I must agree with Sol, using commercially available foundation is not a treatment. I find it hard to believe that after all of the boiling that is done to beeswax, that the chemicals in raw wax would not be seriously degraded. That aside, I do intend in the future to make a foundation mill and mill my own wax, mostly for comb honey use.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

woodedareas said:


> I have read the definition very carefully and I respectfully disagree. Since I read legal documents and definitions almost everyday aim satisfied I am in the right place. What is the purpose of your comment other than tone argumentative? I have learned a great deal from this thread and I am certain other have also found this subject to be informative. In particular I will be very careful about expelling the possibility of chemical pollutants in my hives even though I do not personally introduce them.


"aim satisfied"? Really?

Would you care to wager on the presence of chemical pollutants in your hives? What about your child or yourself? Doesn't everybody after a certain time, in the 1960s I believe, have a certain amount of radioactive fallout present in their bodies from when Atom bombs were tested in Nevada?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Andrew, maybe the standards are an indication that what is allowed can't be lower? There is no way to get to zero or below detectable levels.


@Mark - More to the point is that there are some pests that can not be overcome without the use of insecticides. Colorado Potato Beetle being one such critter - at least when we are talking farm scale. Spinosad "works" on CPB grubs - is considered organic - and from what I have seen is applied without what I *consider* proper concern for native pollinators. That would call for night time applications (Spinosad is active when wet and depending on formulation takes about 4 hours to dry) and I have not *seen* farms willing to spend extra for their day shift to apply pesticides at night.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"...I flatly reject the idea that the chemicals that come in wax foundation have anything to do with treatment-free beekeeping."

It's a major issue for TF beekeepers who want to be 'chemical free' or want to keep bees in an organic farm setting.

Contaminated bee's wax is also an issue with regards to the hive's microfloral community.

Regardless, there have been some useful suggestions for how to reduce/eliminate contaminated wax from a TF hive.

Sol, maybe one day you'll see the forest through the trees.


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