# Is my first deep honey bound? If so, what now?



## jasongonella (Apr 11, 2009)

Mine's becoming honey bound as well. I have one hive, a new one with a single deep super. It filled up, so I added a second deep super. It's full, so I added a queen exluder and two shallow supers to convince the workers to put all the honey there. I'm going to get an extractor to drain a few frames from the deep as well.

I think your friend has the right idea.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

A previous thread, someone pointed out that honey bound means a large band of capped honey/syrup across the top that deters the queen from crossing it into the next chamber. The poster also mentioned that open syrup/honey tended to be a sign of an oncoming swarm (that open stores would be those that the swarm gorged on before leaving).

Sounds very logical. Would also explain the slower behaviour they now exibit.

Mike


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

IMO, "honeybound" is not a band of honey across the top of the frames. "Honeybound" is when the workers/foragers are storing nectar faster than the queen is laying, or filling cells right after brood emerges when there is no queen or you are waiting for a new queen to mate. A "honeybound" brood chamber is one where almost all of the cells have been filled with nectar/honey rather than with eggs. It limits the queens ability to lay and can/does induce swarming. The resolution is space, give them drawn empty frames, or move some of the honey frames up and give them foundation to draw. Without room for the queen to lay the hive will swarm or dwindle.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

It is interesting that when I see this (I see it in my hive a lot), that it never is capped. The bees seem to be able to place the stores where they want so I personally would doubt they are just throwing it here and there. They know they need room for laying so maybe what you are calling honey bound is really pre-preperations for swarming (even before cups are seen) - which would mean that at this stage it would be even easier to prevent the swarm.

When I see it in my hives they always end up swarming, which is my fault for not knowing how to prevent it yet. Not saying it is the evidence just pointing it out.

Just some thoughts
Mike


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

MikeJ said:


> It is interesting that when I see this (I see it in my hive a lot), that it never is capped. When I see it in my hives they always end up swarming, which is my fault for not knowing how to prevent it yet. Not saying it is the evidence just pointing it out.Mike


Given enough time and enough bees they will cap it. Typically the hive swarms and/or dwindles prior to capping this honey filling the brood chamber, and typically its because of a dead queen, poor queen, supercedure, or a swarm that the virgin did not return. Yes when you see it in your hives they are going to swarm (if they have a queen) or they are going to dwindle to nothing. SFAMOUS confirm you have a queen, check for eggs and young brood, if so provide her some space to lay quickly. If not provide the hive a queen cell, mated queen, or some eggs so they can make a queen or this hive is headed to bee heaven. Good luck.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I do foundationless, but recently I've been trying to get them to draw comb on foundation in honey supers for more easy honey extraction. Anyway, my bees won't draw comb on foundation until they absolutely don't have any more space left anywhere, but they will very readily draw new comb from starter strips. You might try putting a few foundationless frames with starter strips in the brood nest - that will put the nurse bees to work drawing new comb and give the queen a place to lay. Even if you don't really want to go *all* foundationless this works, and since you won't be extracting brood comb there isn't any downside.


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## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

sfamous, I would go ahead and do what that beekeeper had told you to do....(One beekeeper told me to raise a few of those honey/syrup frames up into the second deep and replacement positions 3,5,7 in the first deep with foundation-only frames to break up the broodnest and get 'em back on target) That will give the queen room to lay eggs and then hopefully the rest will move up top. I had a situation not to long ago in my TBH where i had to place an empty bar in between the brood area cause the queen didnt have any where to lay eggs and when this happens it seems like all the bees just sit like their on vacation!


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

sfamous,

The condition you describe, considering 
PA climate/bee biology is NOT 'honey bound'.
You were late getting the second deep on
the colony, and it will take time for them
to move up, your condition sounds more 
like overcrowding.

By mid to late June, the flow in PA is beginning to
subside. In the past few seasons, this
subsiding of the nectar flow happened
rather abruptly, in early to mid June.
Any beekeepers which manipulated
stores are added too much foundation
at that time, left the bees in a dire condition,
not being able to draw out or fill up empty
combs. This can lead to stress during
the summer lul, and can be catastrophic
if the fall flow fails.

My advice to you is; although clover this
season is particularly good, and may extend
the early flow till late June, or perhaps early
July, these bees are not honeybound. Strong
colonies cannot become honeybound with nectar
'during the active season' because they have the 
work force to move it at will. (Honey bound is 
a spring condition). At this time, nectar and pollen 
in the bottom deep are being stored there to get 
the colony through the upcomming summer lul, and 
to provide food to rear young bees in mid August 
when the fall flow begins. So the condition, IMO is 
fuel for fall build up, and NOT honey bound. Also,
if you are keeping Russian bees, it is normal for them
to clog the broodnest with nectar and pollen starting
with the decline in the early flow.

Considering 1. the aproach of the end of the early 
flow, 2. that you are a new bee. 3. and that the
bees are starting to move up on their own and 
build comb. I would not recommend you do any
manipulations. 4. opening the broodnest by use
of the other posters recommendations is IMO
better suited for promoting brood production
in 'production colonies', this colony is NOT a
production colony, and is still in the growth 
stage, therefore, perhaps IMO not advised
considering the aformentioned, and the fact
that you are aproaching the end of the 
nectar flow (comb building season).

Best wishes,
Joe
"Keep plenty of cows and bees, as
the surest way of having milk and
honey. Confine your cows with a
good fence but let your bees go at
large. -American Farmer, 1831
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

Good morning: I went into that hive yesterday and here's the summary: Since putting the second deep on they have now moved up onto about three frames and began drawing comb at an increased pace, which is good news. I took every single frame out of the first deep and discovered three things: they have completed a supercedure/swarm queen cell that is capped and awaiting hatch, located at the bottom of one of the frames. It appears as if the resident queen is/was still laying eggs recently, but not very well, because some cells have eggs in them, but many cells that are suitable for eggs contain none. I believe that she may have died or they already did-away with her regardless, because the queen cell has not been breached. And I also discovered that three frames were in fact "honey-bound", if you define that as having capped honey all the way across the frame tops, but not ALL of them. As a result of that fact, coupled with the fact that there really were no more than one "real" brood frames to move, I moved the only frame of mixed-brood up and did not break up the lower-box "brood frame area." I just slid the frames together and put the foundation frame on the end, in position one. Although that sole queen cell is on the bottom of the frame, I believe it is a supercedure cell because: there are no other queen cells whatsoever and other evidence indicates a poor/absent queen. However, bees do not read books and only time will tell if I have made the right call...it's a crap-shoot.... we'll just have to wait and see what they have/had in mind, and hopefully it will be staying put in my apiary. I will deploy my swarm trap today, just in case and maybe I can catch them back if they do go....



Scott


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

The term Honeybound is debateable at BEST. I describe it as packing the entire broodnest with pollen and nectar. I have had that happen 3 times this year and they have ALL superceded the queen because of it. I have changed my husbandry habits because of it that is for SURE. So, call it what you want. Some here refer to the honey along the edges as a honeydome too. When i found my very first split, now in 3 meds, completely "honeybound" there were NO cells available in the broodnest and they had indeed off'd my best queen, and were in the midst of requeening. on one egg in the 2nd medium......welp, it worked and they now have another great laying sister. I watch mine once a week when the flow is on. Right now, our flow has ended for the most part. They are bringing in some exceptionally dark nectar though. I am excited to see what happens with it!!


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

When the new queen starts laying, God willing she makes it, will they fix that "honeybridge?"


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Mine ended moving about 1/2 of it up, but i "helped them" a bit my moving some frames around.....they fixed it after that and opened up the nest...


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

OK, thanks for all the insight DD, sounds identical to my situation, so I will take that advice and follow-suit. I was concerned that the bees might refuse to fix that situation, instead leaving it for late-season stores...that's a lot of wasted brood space!! I need as many bees as i can get building me comb....I'm feeding 24/7 all season for these new packages...I need drawn comb enough for four deeps.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Actually, I believe honey bound is meant as a band across all frames. You have to look at the brood nest as a single area. I believe what many are calling honey bound is what others refer to as back filling.

If the cell is on the bottom I wouldn't be so positive it is supersedure. Even small hives can throw a swarm if they are overcrowded.
Your queen may still be there. They reduce weight and slow/stop egg laying if they plan to swarm. Not saying they are but you won't know for sure until it happens or not.

Mike


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

I am trying to remain hopeful, but no matter what, it's all good....I'm learning a lot, the bees are still makin' comb and I am already an ecperienced swarm catcher....no sweat....I'll just catch em back, pinch that queen, and dump 'em back in....


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

If there is only one queen cell, it is a supercedure cell, and not a swarm cell. You have described a failing queen, and it sounds like the bees are trying to fix the problem. I would completely disregard all advice about this hive swarming.

As best I can tell, it sounds like this hive is not doing everything to your expectations. That is quite normal for bees. They won't do things, simply because that is what you want them to do.

I would be cautious about overfeeding this hive while they are in the process of supercedure. You run the risk of them backfilling the broodnest with nectar/syrup, and the new queen having no open cells for her to get up and running.


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

I am in agreement about the supercedure, but you would be surprised to know how many seasoned beekeepers in my midst, believe without reservation, that if ANY queen cell is lower than the mid-point on a frame, it HAS to be a swarm cell...although I am aware that that statement is likely true a majority of the time, I have learned that bees are definitely opportunists, and placement of the cell is likely about happenstance/convenience, rather than being a "neon sign" of intent to swarm. I also firmly believe that bees, when preparing to swarm, would not leave-to-chance the entire future of the hive riding on the success of just one queen cell....if they made a habit of that trait, they likely would not exist right now....AND they are far too organized and thorough to even try something that risky. 

How many beekeepers reading this post have NEVER experienced a supercedure queen cell below the mid-point of a frame OR seen a swarm-ready hive left to the fate of only one queen cell? Any takers want to share their experiences concerning those specific points??


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

I cannot share in what you are asking, but when they superceded my best queen, all of the cells were below the midline of the frame. Another supercedure, they were EVERYWHERE..high low..and in between. 

I was recently talking to a retired commercial beek. I was asking him about bees placing those cells because for some reason my didn't follow the rule of thumb...he said nope...he thought that rule of thumb was dumb and that you could not trust it. Funny thing is when i asked my dad...he said the same thing....


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

So that said and considering that I've already moved one brood frame up to the second deep, right above the brood area below it, inserted a frame of foundation in the lower box in instead, found a supercedure cell and the bees seem to really be drawing comb out nicely....should I start to restrict their syrup so they start back-draining brood space, in anticipation of the new queen's arrival? Since the supercedure queen cell's intact, does that mean the old queen is already dead or not?


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Just watch and see, I think they wil open it up. I had one that didnt want to so I checkerboarded the lower box all the way and moved them up. Lo and behold when the upper was beginning to be drawn, they opened up the lower box as I had hoped!


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

OK, I will have to trust that they will do the same for me until I go back into that hive to check what they're doing. I have a really good photo of that queen cell to share, but the site said it was too large a file for upload...is there a place for large file uploads??


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Upload to photoucket then use the imsge urk they give you to post here. Or change it to 640x480, then photobucket then here..either way. I do the first.


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

what is photobucket? where do I find this?


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

lol....sorry. www.photobucket.com


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

I was blocked by work filters... i can send it as an email attachment if you send me a forum private message with yer Email, and i'll send it to you and you can post it....how's that?


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

try mitch_associates at yahoo dot com


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

Here's the smaller version...


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

I would keep an eye out on your honey stores. As I told you on the phone the bees in our area are now starting to show robbing behavior. This past weekend while breaking down a hive into nucs, I placed all of the honey frames in one area. Very quickly the frames were covered with foragers who were sucking the nectar/honey out of the frames. Two weeks ago the bees ignored frames of honey and nectar left in the open. As I told you before the nectar flow in our area ends very abruptly, and the comb where they were backfilling will be quickly consumed. I have seen colonies that were heavy in June starve out by mid July. Keep a very close eye on their stores, and hopefully when you are feeding its inside the hive and not through the entrance.


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

Hey dude... I remember whatcha said.... I'm feeding all three boxes internally, which I always do as a rule, to help keep the ants under control. In addition, I closed-off the easy access feeder box entrances, so any raiders will have to go through the hives to get to the feeders...also reduced the entrances by one half as well....I will only have a problem if the bees from the other two apiaries find us...the good news is that each location has only two hives....


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Here is sfamous picture of his queen cell for all to see.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

and one more


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

Thanks for the assist DD.....how 'bout that queen cell? It's the very first one either of my hives have created...I hope she's a super egg-layer!!


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

The resident queen killed that queen in the photo of the cell...went in to check for emergence Sunday AM, and the side was breached and cell empty...wonder why they changed their minds? That hive is cranky-as-all-get-out now to boot.....I will have to see if she's getting her act together or not yet...she seems to be OK one minute and then not laying right a week later....and her laying patterns are also not what they were in the beginning either. I'm gonna give her another week to get it together; but if she can't, gonna "supercede" her myself, wait 24 hrs., and then do a newspaper merge with my swarm nuc. She's this year's queen and has been laying for a few weeks now, so her pheremones should be strong.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm a new beek as well, and don't have a whole lot of experience. But don't bees usually take quite some time to move up and usually do it when they need to feed? As I picture it (and like I said, I'm new and could be wrong) the bottom would be filled with brood in a circular pattern in the middle followed by pollen stores around the brood area and honey stores thereafter. The second deep would be mostly honey stores for them to survive dearths including winter. It would then be at those times the bees would start to use their stores and very gradually move up into the second with the queen and brood following. 

Is this correct?

I understood the main purpose of the second deep was mainly for stores. I also understood that bees will always move up naturally and that you want to stay ahead of this by swapping hive bodies when they do move up so they will continue to have more room to move up. Just as a part of maintainence. As if they had all moved up it would then be time to swap hive bodies so they would have room again to move up.

Is this correct?

Thanks, John


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Yes and no, they will store and use the 2nd box not only during flows, but as brood chambers as well. Generally the best way to coax them up is to bring up a couple f frames ffrom the bottom....they will start to move up. During spring and summer and fall, they will go between box boxes..


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

John....you're already at the "are your hives ready for Winter" chapter and my hives are only halfway through the book.....one add'l bit of info...the hives, except for the "little-swarm" nuc, are new, 3lb. Italian packages this Spring..one installed at the beginning of April, one at the end. I also had no comb whatsoever either, so my bees/hives have to: 

A. Get 20 deep frames of foundation drawn out, starting the season with a small, make-shift family of strange bees and a young queen of unknown ability, that all smell different.

B. Defy adversities that would discourage almost anything, while struggling to get their numbers increased to an adequate size to defend themselves through the dearth and function as a productive hive going into the Fall.

C. And last, but certainly not least, deal with a first-time beekeeper caring for them...screwing up and irritating them beyond anything they likely have had to deal with before and actually stay there while taking it all in stride.

Frankly, they likely are barely clinging to hope, that the Winter is survivable for them at this point.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

Do they really need to be coaxed up, though? If they want up there and need to be up there won't they just start moving up there? Why do they really need to be up there, besides NEEDING more room?

Thanks, John


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I've already read 'The Hive and the Honey Bee', 'First Lessons in Beekeeping', and 'Country Wisdom and Know How'... Front to back.

Was I incorrect?

I can only read so much. Now I need to pick brains...:scratch:


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

No not wrong....what you need is to join a beekeeping club and become slave labor for an experienced beek....pay attention and ask questions a little at a time....and get your own hives to practice on....a reccommended read is Langstroth's original treatise.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

pretty harsh there sfamous, the forum is a place to "ask questions" and "pick brains". JohnV the second box is used both for stores and brood, depending on location additional super or supers of honey are left on them over winter also. With two boxes the queen will extend her brood area up into the second box this area will expand and contract based on the needs of the queen and the stores required by the hive. Yes most times they will move up by themselves, but sometimes they need a little coaxing, and again depending on location and flows it might be necessary from a time/seasonal perspective to help them all you can to assure they are prepared them for winter. Besides the books mentioned, the "search" function on the tool bar above is very helpful and provided a lot of info and different perspectives on just about any beekeeping subject. Good luck to all.

steve


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Why do they need to be coaxed up into that second box? Maybe they do, and maybe they don't, but remember that in a natural hive they wouldn't have to do that. In a tall narrow cavity like a tree they would start at the top and build comb down until it was big enough or they ran out of space, and then they would move around on that contiguous comb.

They might move up without any coaxing but sometimes they seem to act like they can't or don't want to, and they get really crowded even though they actually have room to move into. In a case like that when you do move a frame up they will sometimes start building on the adjacent frames right away.

It would probably be ok if you don't, but I always move one up if they are crowded.


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## Oberlinmom (Mar 11, 2009)

Okay I'm a new beek and this is what happened my first year. I had two deeps and the ladies choked it full of nectar. The majority was not capped. They had pollen too but most of the 20 deep frames were uncapped nectar. I emailed several folks and looked on here. I got plenty of advice. 
Everyone called this honey bound. My queen was not laying, there was no space. I opted to follow Jim Tews advice and put on another deep. If I'd spoken to a local beek I would have followed his advice and pulled some of the frames, given them to a weaker hive, and just given the ladies empty frames.
I thought my queen was gone, no eggs, no larva, no brood. But in a week or two she was back in business. I know it was the same queen due to her mark. I believe the term honey bound is used to cover the idea that there is too much honey/nectar and not enough empty space for the queen to lay.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

2nd year beekeeper..
John, sound like you got the idea. That is the way it is "supposed to be", but sometimes  the bees don't do what they are "supposed to do".

You may be mixing up to different points though. Mostly when I hear people trying to encourage bees to move up, they mean on new frames that are empty (foundation or foundationless). They want them to start using it. So sometimes you encourage them by moving som used frames up.

Once stores/brood are up there they will "move up" during the winter/spring as they need those stores. You don't need to encourage them to move up during this time.

Maybe they sometimes dislike it because it isn't natural to have wood frames around the combs - I have heard that a lot of the top bars on the modern frames was developed during the hey-day of comb honey production and the extra wide frames (1" - 1 1/8") were used to discourage the queen from moving up.

You can read langs. treatise if you want I guess, and be a slave labouror if you want. Or you can just learn as you go. I doubt books will make you good at beekeeping though. Like so many things doing it will be the key.

Mike


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## jasongonella (Apr 11, 2009)

Good news.

My swapping of three frames worked. Now I have brood again. I even saw the queen.

My bottom box was starting to fall apart, so this time I went in it was to swap the box itself - put all the frames into a new box. That's when I did the inspection, found brood and queen. The replacement frames are being drawn.

Now that the bottom box is replaced then it will be impossible for the girls to use the cracks as an alternate door, and they can only use the top enterance to the hive. This means they will have to build up the shallows I placed up there which they seem to be ignoring.

But swapping a few frames for a honey-bound hive is a great solution, at least for me.


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## milwaukee_natural_bees (Apr 23, 2010)

similar situation here...last inspection a week ago...saw eggs/brood almost two deeps drawn out so we added a medium honey super on top , no excluder and let it be...

Inspection today...only a few bees in the medium super/no start to any foundation work...No eggs to be found in the top deep...still some capped brood but all open cells seem to be full of nectar...

Inspected the bottom deep...same scenario, some brood and lots of hatched space just backfilled with nectar...Found only a handful of eggs in one corner of it and incidentally at the bottom of this just found what I believe to be a queen cell in the making...Not capped yet...

Since we had not much equipment on hand...For now chose to squash the queen cell, and put the medium super in between the first and second deep to encourage them to build and hopefully for the queen to lay again...What are our chances of success here...Population is very stron, this is a new hive started this May...Surprised that they did not want to start on medium super at all..and they seemed to have stopped working on wax in general as I still see the same frames from last week which were half drawn in the same condition....

Any advice to share...? The super in the middle hope has the same effect as pulling some frames up as there is still brood in the top deep...


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

milwaukee_natural_bees said:


> similar situation here...last inspection a week ago...saw eggs/brood almost two deeps drawn out so we added a medium honey super on top , no excluder and let it be...
> 
> Inspection today...only a few bees in the medium super/no start to any foundation work...No eggs to be found in the top deep...still some capped brood but all open cells seem to be full of nectar...
> 
> ...


having exactly the same symptoms....a while ago...I stopped feeding for about 10 days and once they consumed the syrup in the old brood cells, she went back to work laying. For some reason, mine are making queen cells as well...so i took out all but the biggest one, in case it's a low-hanging supercedure cell disguised as a swarm cell. I have come to the conclusion that Langstroth was right about having to limit the amount of food when backfilling starts...and why now, and not before? Since they have to draw comb, it shouldn't ever be an issue...right? My hypothesis: That's WRONG....for a few reasons....the urgency level is different now than in Spring...there's already two deeps of drawn comb....so that takes off some of the pressure....the season is now "the dearth" and even though you're still feeding, maybe other cues are telling the bees to start stockpiling for Winter, and not increase brood/egg laying as we would like...and maybe having backfilled so much comb already, perhaps they don't see the immediate need for more comb/broodspace right now...and therefore not wasting of the stores on making more wax for comb that is for honey storage....AND ALSO....perhaps the numbers of bees at the right age for maximum wax building is proportionately much less than foraging age bees....think about it....it makes sense...too many foragers bring stuff in, too many juvenile nurse bees warehousing it and too little wax builders to consume it and convert it into comb.....just a theory.....for what it's worth...


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

There's no telling what all the cause and effects are (although those sound fairly feasible) but one thing is for sure - the more nectar (natural nectar) there is coming in the easier it is to get them to draw comb, and vise-versa.


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## sfamous (Mar 30, 2010)

Agreed....I didn't really think that there would be a difference, but in hindsight of events passed, I think you're on to something with the, "natural-nectar",comb-drawing connection...good catch Dave!


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