# Genetic Diversity: What Would Brother Adam Do... Today?



## sqkcrk

Not to be a downer, but that's how we got AHB too, by doing what Brother Adam did.

Would it be too simplistic to say, simply buy queens from as many sources as possible w/in the US? As many different strains as possible.


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## AmericasBeekeeper

I have the opportunity to travel extensively, as Bro. Adam did. I just cannot get through U.S. customs. They even have detector dogs in Florida that can find anything living. 
There are import restrictions to prevent unwanted species as sqk mentioned or diseases coming in. The queens that were brought to S.A. are supposedly not the same African bees as had been originally selected. There are actually 12 known African species.
All the diseases are here already so only new parasites and unwanted species are left to come in.


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## sqkcrk

The closing down of queen importation, back in the first half of the 20th century, was due to the Isle of Wight Disease and yet we still got tracheal mites somehow. Maybe smuggling was easier in times past.


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## squarepeg

genetic diversity has been shown to be important, in the context of having the opportunity to find and develop resistant traits by selective breeding. does that mean the more diversity the better?

the extreme case here would be to go around the world and collect enough queens from different lines of bees so that every colony in your apiary was unique genetically.

for me, the problem is, that you might lose the adaptations that have been made to your specific location. i.e. would bees from hawaii, that have never experienced seasonal changes, have the ability to brood up and brood down in anticipation of the changes in temperature and forage availibilty in alabama?

it's the opposite extreme to the one i put forward in the 'reducing the gene pool?' thread, whereby all the colonies in that hypothetical apiary were derived from one queen.

in practice, and what i assume most are doing, and what i will strive to do, is find an appropriate balance between the two extremes.

(i think the same argument could be made for 'treatments', hard to make the case for either 'extreme')


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## sqkcrk

Queens and drones. Let's not forget the drones. If we don't have drone diversity or specificity then what do we have to mate w/ the specific or diverse queens?


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## jrbbees

I think it is possible to change your bees by simply buying queens from different suppliers here in the USA. The key to it working would be another question.

Are you prepared to let your bees die out?

If you are to do this then it means that you must let those resulting bees(what you get from the cross breeding) with the lower level of "survivor" traits die off so those with the better "survivor" traits continue to breed. This is the process of natural selection that has already been set in motion for us. Our problem is we spend a great deal of effort trying to keep alive all our bees. We focus our attention on pulling those weak hives through rather than letting them die and focus our attention of propagating new hives from our survivors. 

I think we need to be looking at bringing in a few new queens into our area and using them as "Drone Mothers". Then we can breed our own queens in natural matings letting those drones add their traits to the next generation of queens. By this process we increase the bee bio-diversity and also hopefully add those traits to the feral hives that live among us. 

I believe that this is what several are looking at trying to do to bring/increase hygienic behaviour into their survivors that are already adapted to their areas.


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## Adam Foster Collins

sqkcrk said:


> Not to be a downer, but that's how we got AHB too... Would it be too simplistic to... buy queens from as many sources as possible w/in the US? As many different strains as possible.


Good point, which is why I imagine one would have to connect with a variety of professional breeders, who would have proper management/inspections, etc.

Buying queens from as many US sources as possible would not be too simplistic at all - particularly like myself, who aren't living in the United States. So that would already be a challenge - but doable, and likely the first step. One can also, more easily get drone semen or queen cells, as these are less prone to carry pests and disease.

So is there an efficient way of getting the best sense of which breeders would provide the widest diversity? I guess you would have to contact them and try to get a sense of their background - where their bees came from?


Adam


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## squarepeg

i have found open bred 'glenn' and 'russel' queens within driving distance of me. i also have talked with some of the beeks in our local club about trading queens.


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## sqkcrk

I forgot u are in Canada. Why wouldn't u simply purchase queens of different strain from different suppliers across Canada and other countries u are allowed to import from?


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## JRG13

The smartest thing to do is figure out what you want or research traits/resistances in wild stocks and see how you can introgress them into your stocks.


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## Adam Foster Collins

sqkcrk said:


> ...Why wouldn't u simply purchase queens of different strain from different suppliers across Canada and other countries u are allowed to import from?


I would. Sounds like a logical idea. Then the question would be how to achieve the widest diversity through the fewest breeders. You don't want to overlap too much by getting stock from people who are sourcing their own from the same place.

I heard somewhere that something like 10 or 11 breeders supply most of the world's queens. Is that right?

Adam


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## AmericasBeekeeper

To quote Bro. Adam
"The assumption that an indigenous bee must necessarily prove superior in her native habitat is completely erroneous. "
but he has a few more years wth bees than you and I combined . . .


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## squarepeg

'must necessarily' is pretty strong, 'in most cases likely' is more reasonable. 'room for improvement', let's hope so.


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## Adam Foster Collins

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> To quote Bro. Adam
> "The assumption that an indigenous bee must necessarily prove superior in her native habitat is completely erroneous. "
> but he has a few more years wth bees than you and I combined . . .



I think that makes sense. And I guess that's partly why I ask the question. I don't think we really have an "indigenous" bee here in Nova Scotia, but after having a closed border and importing 99% of our bees from one or two sources for many years, I feel that the diversity has to have suffered to some extent. Couple that with the fact that 3/4 or more of the total colonies are managed by a single operation.

So, as I consider a way forward, I wonder if it might be best to start by obtaining a number of queens from the widest variety of sources that I can, and to go from there. Not necessarily to get a huge number from all over the world, but to do my best to reach for a wide variety.

The OP just stemmed from that line of thinking, and I thought of Brother Adam and wondered how would you get the WIDEST range of viable stock if you were really as focused as he was - while staying within the confines of present day issues and realities.

Adam


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## squarepeg

>>I don't think we really have an "indigenous" bee here in Nova Scotia

or anywhere else in the western hemisphere.

>>but after having a closed border and importing 99% of our bees from one or two sources for many years, I feel that the diversity has to have suffered to some extent. 

heck yeah adam, especially if the sources didn't incorporate a mix of genetics in their operation.

sounds like you are on the right track. is your border still closed? any chance of cutting out feral survivors or placing swarm traps in the wild?


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## Steven Ogborn

Brother Adam had the support and resources that being a member of "The Church" provided. He didn't have the same restrictions
that common people had/have. Do you know anybody with diplomatic immunity? That's what he enjoyed.


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## deknow

The current trend towards unlimited diversity is greatly flawed.
Brother Adam was not trying to 'ncrease diversity...if he were, than any stock would have been as desirable as any other. He was looking to 'ncorporate specific traits, and searched out specific lines that exhibited the traits he was after.

Deknow


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## Adrian Quiney WI

If the restrictions upon imports were easier it would be simpler to import frozen bee semen than live bees.


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## Steven Ogborn

deknow said:


> The current trend towards unlimited diversity is greatly flawed.
> Brother Adam was not trying to 'ncrease diversity...if he were, than any stock would have been as desirable as any other. He was looking to 'ncorporate specific traits, and searched out specific lines that exhibited the traits he was after.
> 
> Deknow


So instead of seeking out so much genetic diversity, we should find bees that do what we need them to and maintain them?
This doesn't continue the genetic diversity lather a lot of people continue to think is useful.
Genetic diversity might be obsolete. Does anybody predict any new diseases or pests coming, except bees with genetic diversity
that we don't want? (AHB ie.)


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## squarepeg

dean, what is the source of the 'trend'? what is your approach to improving the traits of your bees via genetics?


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## Fusion_power

> So instead of seeking out so much genetic diversity, we should find bees that do what we need them to and maintain them?


There is no advantage to bringing in bees from diverse regions where they are native unless you are prepared to do the breeding work that Brother Adam did with his bees. In other words, there is NO advantage to diversity just for diversity's sake. You might even be going backwards by importing bees that are so seriously un-adapted that they can't produce their own honey and would have to be fed to maintain them. There is also the risk of importing undesirable traits such as AHB, cape bees, etc.

If you want bees that are adapted to NS, then you would only want to bring in bees from areas with similar climates. This would limit you to extreme northern Europe and perhaps part of Asia. Unfortunately that would leave out some of the most interesting bees with the most unique traits. Here is a listing of the recognized geographic species of Apis Mellifera.

North-west of Europe
A. m. iberica
A. m. intermissa
A. m. lihzeni
A. m. mellifera
A. m. sahariensis * note that this one is listed twice.

South-west of Europe
A. m. carnica
A. m. cecropia
A. m. ligustica
A. m. macedonica
A.m. ruttneri
A. m. sicula

Middle East
A. m. adamii
A. m. anatoliaca
A. m. armeniaca
A. m. caucasica
A. m. cypria
A. m. meda
A. m. pomonella

Africa
A. m. adansonii
A. m. capensis
A. m. intermissa
A. m. lamarckii
A. m. litorea
A. m. major
A. m. monticola
A. m. sahariensis
A. m. scutellata
A. m. unicolor
A. m. jemenitica

Of the above, I know of three that could be of significant interest here in North America. They are A. M. Lamarckii, A. M. Sahariensis, and A. M. Monticola. Guess what? These are all African races! So why would they be interesting? Lamarckii is the Egyptian bee and carries the unique trait of NOT collecting propolis. Sahariensis carries a trait of extreme thrift to the point of producing very little drone comb. Monticola seems to have some unique cold temperature adaptations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(genus)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_mellifera


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## squarepeg

interesting dar. do you raise your own queens? if no, what do you look for when purchasing?


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## sqkcrk

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I don't think we really have an "indigenous" bee here in Nova Scotia, Adam


Or anywhere else in the Americas.


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## Steven Ogborn

Adam, can you get bees from Hawaii? Big Island Queens is selling VSH queens there, that they got from Glenn Apiaries.
I remember reading how Allen Dick got queens from Hawaii. My impression from what I remember from earlier posts of 
yours is your frustration with treating for mites. This should help. Get some Ferguson Buckfasts, some VSH from Hawaii and
start raising your own bees for your area. Also, (insert shameless Weaver plug here) I heard Beeweaver is still working with 
a company out there in HI. If you're happy with your Chevy. You don't need a Chevy/Ford/Dodge. They're already produced.
You just have to figure out how to get them.


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## deknow

VSH is not the right approach. This is especially true if you are not going to evaluate/select for VSH. I hear from very very few beekeepers who actually evaluate for VSH.

Deknow


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## squarepeg

dean, can you share what you evaluate/select for?


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## Steven Ogborn

I thought Adam was trying to be treatment-free. Evaluate by having bees that live treatment-free. My logic is. Buckfasts do well
in cold, wet parts of Europe and Canada. It should do well in NS. VSH trait is inheritable. Both "breeds" should do okay through a 
NS summer, long enough to get queens raised and everything requeened before winter. Evaluate in the spring of 2014. Binford
and Danny Weaver have already proven that VSH is inheritable into the Buckfast line. Why can't Adam work on his own version 
of Beeweavers that will do well where he's at? Since he can't import a bee that's already being produced that would work for him.


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## deknow

...you are talking about VSH as it it were brown eyes.....this is a gross misunderstanding of the entire concept of VSH, HYG, and hygienic behavior in general.
These behaviors exist in all populations...the 'trait' is really just an evaluation of where on the continuum a particular hive scores.  It is also well understood (and has been demonstrated in both the lab and with independent breeders) that a line that scores highest in hygienec tests pull most of the brood, not just those hosting varroa. 
Read Marla's documentation wrt Minnesota hygienic program.....without constant selection for the hyg trait, it dilutes in the population (meaning that if you are not testing and selecting for it disappears).
Most importantly, naturally surviving populations of bees (even AHB ) don't score especially high on these kinds of tests...so they are using other (proven successful) methods to survive the mites.

Deknow


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## squarepeg

squarepeg said:


> what is your approach to improving the traits of your bees via genetics?





squarepeg said:


> dean, can you share what you evaluate/select for?





deknow said:


> so they are using other (proven successful) methods to survive the mites.
> 
> Deknow


i am interested in your approach dean, unless it is a closely guarded secret.


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## sqkcrk

He has a book ya know. heh, heh


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## squarepeg

so that's why the teasers!


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## Lburou

*Here is my backyard solution.*

I hope these thoughts fit in with the OP and subsequent exchange. 
I have not read any claim by Brother Adam that he had found 'all' strains of bees worth using in breeding, there is still work to be done in remote places harboring the original range of Apis Meliffera.

Seems that frozen semen would be the easiest way to gather your diversity. Maybe you could find some European breeder or institution with the same goals then work on importing bees or semen with veterinary certifications and assurances. Import them to a government research program for evaluation -that is your foot in the door.

We cannot predict the 'next' disease or pest in our (bee) future. Ushering a wide genetic footprint into the future will be good for the bee's chance of survival.

I'm wintering four hives containing: One queen of Minnesota Hygienic stock (now mixed with local feral bees), one queen of RWeaver's Buckfast stock (it IS a gentle hive), One queen of BeeWeaver's survivor stock, and one Italian looking queen from a local cut out. I've observed good honey production and hygienic behavior from the Minnesota hygienic, Beeweaver and RWeaver Buckfast queens (the feral hive is too new to judge production). 

The RWeaver Buckfast line, even if diminished over time as some assert, was bred to have good wing size for good flying ability, good resistance to tracheal mites and brood diseases (and other attributes). Coupled with good honey production and gentleness, the Buckfast genes seem a good bet for some broader diversity crossing with these other lines in Spring. We'll roll the dice in Spring and subsequent Springs, until somebody solves the task of providing a (successful) wider genetic base here in America. 

BTW, are our bees really doing that much worse than European bees did when varroa arrived there?


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## deknow

1. I've been typing on my phone.
2. I've posted a lot about this here and elsewhere.
3. It's hard to even discuss this stuff if it's against the backdrop of VSH when it is so misunderstood. Why would one let a hive die when they could just get VSH stock to start with? Because VSH is just as much of a crutch as any other, and one that virtually no one who buys such stock is equiped to maintain.

Deknow


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## Steven Ogborn

deknow said:


> ...you are talking about VSH as it it were brown eyes.....this is a gross misunderstanding of the entire concept of VSH, HYG, and hygienic behavior in general.
> These behaviors exist in all populations...the 'trait' is really just an evaluation of where on the continuum a particular hive scores. It is also well understood (and has been demonstrated in both the lab and with independent breeders) that a line that scores highest in hygienec tests pull most of the brood, not just those hosting varroa.
> Read Marla's documentation wrt Minnesota hygienic program.....without constant selection for the hyg trait, it dilutes in the population (meaning that if you are not testing and selecting for it disappears).
> Most importantly, naturally surviving populations of bees (even AHB ) don't score especially high on these kinds of tests...so they are using other (proven successful) methods to survive the mites.
> 
> Deknow


Just tying to figure out a way someone could create through using a hybrid, a mite resistant bee from what is able to be imported
to NS. The idea is to make a hybrid then breed from the survivors. If the resistant trait doesn't transfer, there won't be survivors.
I'm not talking about a whole complicated progam with nitrogen tests and counting percentages of pulled brood etc. Just find
an improvement and then breed from the best at hand and go from there. The bees that the II breeders use have a very high
score when tested for VSH trait. When bred to a non-VSH bee the trait does get thinned down, but can still be carried enough
to make bees that can make healthy colonies and effectively hold their own against mites.


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## squarepeg

makes sense steven. i guess poor adam is in a bit of a predictament up there in ns.

dean, your book is supposed to arrive here next week, so rest your eyes. 

(but when you get a better opportunity, i want to know the real reason why you don't like the erikson paper, on the pov thread, thanks)


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## cerezha

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

My impression is that simple Mendel's laws is difficult to apply to the bees. From another hand, I hope that classical genetics is still working on bees. Correct me if I am wrong: Individual worker bee could have only pair of any gene - "A" and "a", which gives some combinations in the future generations, AA, Aa and aa. In my understanding, diversity may be at the level of single colony - different bees have different father's genes and the same from mother. Another option - diversity between the colonies. In such case, both mother and father genes may create a numerous combinations. The "trait" is not a single gene, it is a combination of many. Now, are we talking about "diversity" of "traits" or genes? In my opinion, diversity of genes may be realized even in a single colony if free mating is available. Free mating will also increase the diversity of genes between the colonies (plus "wild" genes). May be somebody could explain to me what is (if any) diversity of "traits?" Continue speaking about diversity of genes (not traits), to me, the easiest solution would be to let bees to create their own queens and mate them freely. It would immediately diversify the pool of genes available in (and between) the colony(ies). Introducing the "breeded" queen would shrink the diversity.

This post is not a statement but my thoughts. It would be nice to hear [the opinion of experts] friendly opinions.


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## squarepeg

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

>>It would be nice to hear the opinion of experts. 

well, that certainly leaves me out. 

nice to see you posting sergey, i hope you have been well.


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## cerezha

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

I am not expert ether. Bees genetics is so complicated to me! It would be great if together we could figure out how "traits" are actually inherited AND stay in genome?


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## deknow

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

There is a good reason hybrid breeding programs maintain separate lines, and us the cross for "production". Often the inbred lines of bees are very weak from inbreeding.....and subsequent generations are poor...hence maintaininformation the separate lines.

Deknow


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## cerezha

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*



deknow said:


> There is a good reason hybrid breeding programs maintain separate lines, and us the cross for "production". Often the inbred lines of bees are very weak from inbreeding.....and subsequent generations are poor...hence maintaininformation the separate lines.Deknow


 Yes, I do understand that at the level of many animals but bees. In case of, for instance dogs, we could maintain two pure lines and than cross them. The cross is usually stronger than parenting lines. But in such case we have mother from one pure line and father from another. In case of bees, it is always queen, nobody is talking about drones. Do breeders keep drones pure as well? It seems to me, since drones are haploid, it is easier to keep them pure and transfer "good" genes (hopefully traits) to other bees. In such scenario, we "just" need to bring "pure-blood" colony (pure mother and father) to the apiary to incorporate "good" genes into bees population... instead pollination, insemination by pure drones!


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## ScubaMark

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

One thing that seems to be being overlooked is that "genetic diversity" is NOT gained by homogenizing from EXISTING genetic materials. Gene variation is not a static value. It, in fact, often arises from geographic isolation. An isolated population may in fact go through a bottleneck due to natural selection. The gene variation which permitted that selective survival then gives rise to other random variations introduced either by "nature or nature's God" (let's not argue which) that subsequently produces increases or decreases in other survival or performance traits.

Certainly, in any given "isolated biosphere" a concentrated inbreeding produces a preponderance of negative gene expressions that are typically not dominant. Hence the need for using "hybrid vigor" to suppress non-dominate negative gene expressions. However, in the typical bee yard exposed to open mating that level of inbreeding is not common. Instead of seeking to "introduce" genetic diversity from other geographical isolated populations, it seems to me that we should spend more time limiting the homogenization of the total species genetic material by ceasing to do so much large scale "inter-breeding" and instead look more toward more localization of queen production.


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## JRG13

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

I like that approach scuba. I think having a well mated queen from a diverse range of drones makes for a stronger hive.


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## Daniel Y

deknow said:


> ...you are talking about VSH as it it were brown eyes.....this is a gross misunderstanding of the entire concept of VSH, HYG, and hygienic behavior in general.
> These behaviors exist in all populations...the 'trait' is really just an evaluation of where on the continuum a particular hive scores. It is also well understood (and has been demonstrated in both the lab and with independent breeders) that a line that scores highest in hygienec tests pull most of the brood, not just those hosting varroa.
> Read Marla's documentation wrt Minnesota hygienic program.....without constant selection for the hyg trait, it dilutes in the population (meaning that if you are not testing and selecting for it disappears).
> Most importantly, naturally surviving populations of bees (even AHB ) don't score especially high on these kinds of tests...so they are using other (proven successful) methods to survive the mites.
> 
> Deknow


I saw something the other day that says they suspect hygienic behavior may be associated with as many as 7 genes. So you may see excess removal from a bee that expresses behavior due to one gene. and not in the next being that is expressing due to one of the other possible genes. They do seem to have a lot figured out. but I do not think they know it well yet.

In addition the traits all so far seem to be recessive. this is what makes loosing the traits such a problem.

Any trait that is not continually selected for will be lost.

As for gathering a wide diversity. There is no longer a need to travel to do so. have them sent to you. The need to have an eyes on evaluation becomes considerably less when the queens cost you comparatively nothing.

If you toss out hundreds of bees that cost you a few dollars each. it is the same as spending hundreds of dollars on travel to hands on evaluate them. Plus hands on evaluation is not as critical now with the ability to share data. You just need the numbers to make a selection basically. you don't need to see a bee.

You can get queens from beekeers from all over. if you best hive makes a queen cell mail it to me.

You can get queens from queen producers. not terribly expensive but open mated. the genetics are not all known. 

You can get queens that are from queen breeders with fairly well known traits and also an already narrowed gene pool.

Efficiency comes at a price. Cheap means you get a lot of unwanted genes. expensive means keeping the gene pool still comparable narrow. Less to clean up. more chance of lost beneficial genes.


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## deknow

Sergey, breeders do consider the drones.
Most use "drone colonies" and either flood the area with drones of their choosing, or go to a place that doesn't have other bees (an island, a mountain).
If one is going to introduce genetics, the best way is via drones. Breeder queens are purchased in the summer and grafted so that many of her offspring will overwinter. Since the drones produced by these offspring are not influenced by their mating, their genes are completely of the population the expensive breeder queen came from. This maintains the genetics you have already established while adding the genetics you want to add.
There is some disagreement as to how far from the mating nucs the drone colonies should be....but many just keep them in the same yard.
Bees have a lot _f mechanisms in place to prevent any kind of "pure mating"...not the least of which is the sex determination gene. This is. System that is designed to run "dirty".

Deknow


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## Daniel Y

The drone is half of the queen genetically. so if you took a number of drones from the same hive you are pretty much guaranteed to get all the genes from that queen.I am not sure what the number is. I have seen people gather as little as 10 drones from a hive.as many as 100 or more. I woudl tend toward the higher numbers.

The sperm of a drone are clones of it's genetics so that is the point you reach the lowest genetic diversity in a honey bee. This is countered by queens that mate with multiple drones from multiple hives. it is also the point you can consolidate gens intentionally. much attention needs to be paid to drones. Problem is drones don't express a lot of the traits they carry. they don't work. You have to look to the queen and the workers for an idea of what they even carry.


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## jim lyon

deknow said:


> There is some disagreement as to how far from the mating nucs the drone colonies should be....but many just keep them in the same yard.
> Bees have a lot _f mechanisms in place to prevent any kind of "pure mating"...not the least of which is the sex determination gene. This is. System that is designed to run "dirty".
> 
> Deknow


There is a theory out there that queens don't breed from their own drones because thevirgin can fly faster than the drone and therefore will get mated by drones further from her hives. I had an experience a few years ago that shot down that theory in my own mind. We had a large group of nucs that were woefully short of drones so we placed the nuc yard less than a mile from one of our strongest yards where there was no shortage of drones thinking that it would help greatly with mating. Both yards have had histories of high percentage matings. The end result was a miserable queen catch in the poorer yard and an excellant catch in the better yard. The better yard was probably about a week ahead so the matings were happening on different days.


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## deknow

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

Ok, first, let's look at hygienic behavior...commonly referred to as hyg. All bees are hygienic to some extent or another. .let's make an analogy to a person running fast. There are lots of factors that can go into running fast...the length of your legs, your muscle strength, training, desire, etc. You can make some assumptions of how fast someone can run, but if it were easy to do so, we would know the winner of every race ahead of time. Being "slow" in such an evaluation does not mean that one is unable to move..."fast" and "slow" are two ends of a continuum, not discrete traits like brown eyes, and can be influenced by a number of genetic factors.

This is what hyg is....it is the ability of the bees to sense and remove a lot of dead brood from underneath the cappings...and to do it quickly. It is not really possible to judge hyg through casual observation (I know Mike P. has said he selects for hygienic behavior by selecting for colonies with not chalk.....this assumes that hygienic behavior is the sole genetic defense against chalk that the bees have...I don't believe this to be true. Mike appears to have selected bees resistant to chalk, or cleaned it out of his equipment over time...his bees may display a high hyg score, but I would not bet on it).`

To evaluate hyg, one must kill a known number of capped brood (usually either a pin prick or liquid nitrogen poured within a ring), and see how fast and how completely the bees remove the dead brood. This is the test for hyg...not if you see brood being uncapped because of varroa, not if you see a clean bottom board.

Hyg was seen as a way to breed bees to be resistant to AFB. The idea was that if the infected brood could be removed quickly and completely, the reproduction cycle of the bacteria could be interrupted. This was found to be true.....but it was a "brink" effect....the bees could resist AHB if they could remove 94% of the dead brood in 24 or 48 hours (I forget which was used), but below this 94%, they were not resistant...they were not almost resistant...they were not kind of resistant. Other methods of breeding bees that are demonstratively resistant to AFB have been done successfully, but I don't think they were ever tested for hyg.

....more later when I have time....

deknow


It was first looked at as a way to combat AFB


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## jim lyon

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

I know Charles Mraz was working on that quite extensively years back. We bought a bunch of queens from him, and it did seem like they showed quite a bit of improvement in disease resistance. My main recollection, though, was that thosebees were M E A N. I have often wondered if the hygienic traits that are beneficial in AFB removal isn't a big reason why we see so much less AFB than we did years ago.


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## deknow

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

The hyg and vsh traits (which are behaviors determined by a number of genes) are recessive. In fact, they are not so much "traits" as "hyperexpressions of behaviors" that are obtained through careful selection pressures. 

It is worth noting that selecting for survivors is not sufficient selection pressure to select for hyg or vsh. If you want stock that will score high on these tests, you have to perform the tests and select based upon the results.

We often see beekeepers or clubs who want to start a local breeding program buy VSH breeders in an attempt to breed these with whatever is available locally to produce a varroa resistant/tollerant local stock. ...but, these beekeepers and clubs rarely test for hyg, and even more rarely test for VSH (there is not a standard assay for this, and those that are used are cumbersome at best). 

If you think the VSH trait is what will give you mite resistance, then you have to actively maintain that trait by testing and selecting for it, not just select for survivors. If you don't, you will lose the very trait that you are counting on for your mite resistance in just a few generations....so much for the local resistant stock you are trying to build.


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## deknow

Natural selection and artificial selection share the same mechanisms....inbreeding to fix traits, outbreeding to introduce new traits. If have a population of bees that is "fit"....an entire population that you are happy with, then by all means, breed from all the bees...make walk away splits and increase your numbers.

But, what if your population is unfit? What if you are not happy with the performance and you want to "improve" your stock?

You may want to bring some stock in if you think what you have available is total junk...but once you do that, you have to let things settle out. To some extent you want to fix the population with the traits you care about, and discard those that you don't. In my case, I'm not smart enough to know exactly what traits and in what proportions the bees need, so I look at "meta traits"...survival, temperament, production mostly.

What happens when you lose most of your bees to a bad winter? Assuming the survival is, on balance, a genetic factor, you inbreed to some extent with what is left....fixing some of those tratis in the population...something you could never do if you had drones and queens from the colonies that "died of starvation because you didn't feed them over winter". In our case, we see frugal overwintering behavior in our stock....not anything we evaluate separately from survivability.
....more later...


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## jim lyon

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

Dean: I have heard this before and I have trouble accepting the fact that if hygienic resistance is, in fact, a beneficial trait then why wouldn't it also predominate in strong surviving hives? Aren't the same hives that survive the very ones that have shown some sort of propensity to fight off mites either through hygienic traits, or possibly through physically combating mites or even other means such as shortened brood laying seasons. The end result is the same,bees that have learned to tolerate mites to a higher degree.


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## deknow

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

Jim, it has to do with the "expense" of the behavior. If you were going to open a restaurant and were hiring kitchen staff....you want to make sure that food does not get contaminated. Staff that washes their hands after they use the bathroom, or when needed is what you want. Staff with OCD who was their hands every 2.5 minutes would also give you the same result...no contamination of food...but would be far less productive.
I don't know what the "traits" are that allow unmanged bees to survive....but I know those are the ones I want to work with.

deknow


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## Stonefly7

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

Dean, What are your plans to re-start? have you decided on any queen sources as of yet? You are going to breed, correct! Not sure what unmanaged bees are. 

Jim, are you breeding at all, or purchasing stock from your breeder? I have seen controlled breeding work in a operation of 600 to 800, by having replacement queens and nucs ready for production colonies, replacing losses, etc, but have not heard of or seen that in larger operations.

I am not sure about the hyg hype either. I have never tested or looked. Just don't have the time. Isnt MP doing just that, or is he testing?


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## jim lyon

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*



Stonefly7 said:


> Jim, are you breeding at all, or purchasing stock from your breeder? I have seen controlled breeding work in a operation of 600 to 800, by having replacement queens and nucs ready for production colonies, replacing losses, etc, but have not heard of or seen that in larger operations.


We have brought in a few breeders (including some Hygenic) in the past and will do so in the future but mostly just select from our best hives. I sure don't consider myself a true bee breeder but we are operating around 5,000 hives so we do have a lot of diversity to choose from.


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## Adam Foster Collins

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*



deknow said:


> ...
> It is worth noting that selecting for survivors is not sufficient selection pressure to select for hyg or vsh. If you want stock that will score high on these tests, you have to perform the tests and select based upon the results....
> If you think the VSH trait is what will give you mite resistance, then you have to actively maintain that trait by testing and selecting for it, not just select for survivors. If you don't, you will lose the very trait that you are counting on for your mite resistance in just a few generations....so much for the local resistant stock you are trying to build.


This only makes sense if you're bent on maintaining VSH. If you're bringing in VSH bees as part of an attempt to establish bees that survive, and that trait helps them survive, then why would you need to test for it? If the VSH trait is what keeps them alive, why would you have to select for it in some other way? How are you going to lose the trait?

Like you, I see myself focusing on "meta traits" as well, so I care far less about the traits that keep them alive than the fact that they are living. So I am wondering if it is wise to get a fairly wide variety of bees from a number of different breeders to provide the widest set of variables to begin with. And from there, select from surviving colonies. I know it's 'heavy handed' but I'm trying to sift out the best way to move forward, while allowing for the fact that there is so much unknown about the how bees survive mites.

Adam


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## deknow

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

Because only high levels of hygienic behavior are effective, and the behaviors are the expressions of a number of separate (mostly recessive) genes. Such high levels are extremely unlikely to occur by chance, and I've not heard of anyone who has found or maintained these traits without specific selection for them.


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## squarepeg

fantastic discussion here, many thanks to all.


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## grozzie2

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*



deknow said:


> I don't know what the "traits" are that allow unmanged bees to survive....but I know those are the ones I want to work with.


Over the last couple years, we got an interesting lesson regarding 'unmanaged bees'.

Short back story. 2 summers back, when we started with bees, it came up in conversation with a friend, they have a hive in the eaves of the house, its been there 'forever'. We were interested, could be an interesting source of survivor ferals. So, we went and looked, sure enough, bees coming and going in june. We set out a trap, but, didn't get anything in it. Our friends are of the 'live and let live' mindset, so they dont want the bees removed. A couple weeks later, talking to the retired couple across the street from us, apparently they owned the house prior to the current folks, lived in it for 20 years, and had bees in the eaves the whole time, and it was normal for a local keeper to be called in the spring, to retrieve swarms.

Soo, as fall came on, we watched the hive, and it had plenty of activity. Winter rolled around, activity died off as expected. In the early spring, we started checking regularily, on days when our hive beside the house was flying, to see about activity in the eaves of the old house. None. No bees at the entrance, no dead bees on the ground, not a sign of any bees. By mid spring, our hives were flying every day, and when we checked the old house, again, no activity at all. About the time we were starting to watch our hives for swarm preps, we got a call from the folks, the bees have 'woke up for the summer', apparently there was suddenly a lot of activity at the entrance.

The lesson learned from this. Homeowners and prior owners were happy to give us a 30 year history of bees in that eave, they honestly believed the bees were there the whole time. But, watching, and knowing a bit of what we are watching for, we realized, that eave did NOT support a colony thru the winter at all, but, one of the first swarms of the spring happily moved in.

The lesson from this, even when the property owners are absolutely positive that the wild bees have been in that spot forever, doesn't actually make it so, and, they may not be feral survivors at all. For the better part of a year, we believed that colony was a long time survivor, and, we had contemplated numerous ways to try capture some of that line into our own bees. But it was all for naught, watching them carefully over a winter / spring, showed us, it's not a long surviving colony at all, it's a 'happy home' for an early swarm.


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## cerezha

deknow said:


> Sergey, breeders do consider the drones....Deknow


 OK, thanks, it make sense. Is it possible to make a colony with a lot of "good" drones and set it in the apiary to enhance the population with "good" genes originated from the drones-colony? It looks like the easiest way to introduce "good" genes, right? Of coarse, in such scenario, bees should rise their own queens (inseminated by "good" drones). Thanks for responding on my message!


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## cerezha

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*



Adam Foster Collins said:


> ... I am wondering if it is wise to get a fairly wide variety of bees from a number of different breeders to provide the widest set of variables to begin with. And from there, select from surviving colonies...Adam


 It would be great to see different opinions on that. My thinking (not knowledge) is that to increase diversity (more "good" genes available) we need (1) drones as a source of genes and (2) free mating with any queens, not breeders... We need also remember that if we are thinking about any genes, the way of "fixing" them in genome for future generations is through sexual reproduction (or artificial equivalent) - we need openly mated queens and swarms! Introducing the new queen every year works in opposite direction - all traits to be fixed in the past year will be eliminated and we need to start from scratch...

Very nice and informative discussion - thank you!


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## AstroBee

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*



deknow said:


> I don't know what the "traits" are that allow unmanged bees to survive....but I know those are the ones I want to work with.
> 
> deknow


Sounds like a challenging endeavor.


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## Daniel Y

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*



cerezha said:


> Yes, I do understand that at the level of many animals but bees. In case of, for instance dogs, we could maintain two pure lines and than cross them. The cross is usually stronger than parenting lines. But in such case we have mother from one pure line and father from another. In case of bees, it is always queen, nobody is talking about drones. Do breeders keep drones pure as well? It seems to me, since drones are haploid, it is easier to keep them pure and transfer "good" genes (hopefully traits) to other bees. In such scenario, we "just" need to bring "pure-blood" colony (pure mother and father) to the apiary to incorporate "good" genes into bees population... instead pollination, insemination by pure drones!


The most effective way to control the drone is through Instrumental Insemination.There is some effort to encourage this procedure among breeders.

ON the issue of lines and the ill effects of them.this is basically the results of hybridization. the problems with hybridization are well known. the only reason that main stream knows anything about it is that it is so common to be supplied. But why? It serves a supplier to offer something that cannot reproduce itself. So breeders that want to stay in business intentionally produce and supply hybrids. right along with all the flaws they posses.

In the pure interest of developing the healthier bee. you would cross those lines. breeding out the hybridization and fixing the trait. Bees that do breed true. To stop at the separate lines and say this accomplished nothing is like planing a trip to the grand canyon and then stopping half way there and saying this looks nothing like I expected it to. Well no kidding you are looking at the great plains.

Everybody has their idea of what a better bee will look like. and then when a bee doesn't look like that they say it is not better. What if the better bee (for keeping) is a queen you buy in the spring. it builds a colony in record time. produces $250 worth of honey and the entire colony is dead by fall. You get every drop of honey and no winter keeping of bees. You also get a 10 fold increase in your cash flow.

The above is just one example of. If you are not doing the breeding. you are probably not going to have much say in what that better bee ends up being. If you want your better bee, you will probably have to breed it yourself.


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## Daniel Y

*Re: Here is my backyard solution.*

Keep in mind there is a distinction between a queen breeder and a queen rearer or producer as I like to call it. A breeder has a lot of very weak colonies that are specialized in only one or two very enhanced traits. these various hives should then be crossed so that you end up with one bee with all the good. That is the theory anyway but it does not work that simply. A breeder has a lot of bees that woudl be nowhere near suitable for keeping. Once that do have that exceptional bee they then produce a hand full maybe only a couple thousand queens from it. and those are sent to producers. at relatively high cost. to then produce the tens of thousands of queens that will be supplied to beekeepers.

So what can the beekeeper do to help increase the effect of breeding. Allow your hives to produce drones. this is the only way a queen can expend her genetics beyond her own colony. If you keep that queen and practice drone production methods that discourage the production of drones. you are limiting the impact that queen has on the environment.

I believe there is far to much bee management that is focused on what you will get here and now. this year. and no concern for what will happen tomorrow.and then when tomorrow shows up and it does not look so good we wonder what is wrong with the bee.


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## Daniel Y

Here is another factor concerning drones. since they are fully half of the equation they are a significant consideration. In bee breeding we have almsot complete control of the queen. we can not only observe her traits through her daughters and by looking at her.WE know where she is and what she is doing.so much so that almost every decisions in managing a hive is connected to her in some way.

Instrumental Insemination can give us that same control over the drone. But not without obsticals. and big ones.

Susan Colby who has a dual appointment with both UC Davis (2 hours drive from me) and WSU. I don't' know about you but being employed by two Universities at once is saying something. Has a course in II. The problems is I think it is restricted to researchers, laboratory technicians and breeders. So that means I have to become a breeder before I even qualify. I am trying to get in contact with Susan because I hope to take this course next spring.

Now I personally am the sole support of three children. my wife and three grandchildren.take a thousand dollars or more to go take a class on how to inject semen in a bee is a pretty big decision.

On top of that you can only take the course if you supply your own instrument. and so far that is no small task either. I have found far more information on how to make them yourself than I have on buying one.and the only place I found to buy them you simply send an e-mail about what you want. and hope for the best. There are some simplified methods that are being developed or have been developed for those that are not scientists.

But II is the surest way to be able to breed good hives with good hives. it is just not their for there for most beekeepers yet.

I was thinking the other day about how it might work that you could ship a queen and a bunch of drones that you desired her to be bred to to a lab to have them inseminated. It woudl make for an expensive queen but you would be getting a known cross. Then I came across issue with producing good drones. Basically you have to do it right. And it is not necessarily easy. IN fact producing drones can become the most difficult part of queen breeding and II.


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## deknow

Sorry, there is no way to describe what has just been posted other than rather ignorant misinformation being presented as fact by the uninformed.

Inbred lines are used for hybrid crosses (like the starline and midnight programs...I posted a video of Randy Quinn talking about these programs a few days ago). I don't know of anyone doing this kind of hybrid breeding today (doesn't mean it isn't happening, I just don't know about it if it is). This is _one_ way to approach breeding, and is not what is commonly practiced today. Not having inbred bees that need to be constantly propped up with frames of food and capped brood does not mean you are not a breeder.

II has it's uses (research, breeding programs), but it is not how one produces a good quality queen for production. II queens are generally used to raise production (open mated) queens. No one uses II queens for production...they are too expensive, and they do not perform as well as open mated queens.

Much of beekeeping technology and practice is geared towards preventing the bees from raising drones...during most of the active season, it isn't difficult to produce drones, and during the rest of the season, it is easy to keep a virgin caged for a month or 6 weeks and then release her...she will only lay drones.

deknow


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## JSL

Deknow has some very good points. Diversity in a population is a good thing, not because it is inherently good, but because it offers many opportunities. When giving a talk, I sometimes joke that I collect bees like others collect stamps, coins, cars or whatever it is you may like to collect. Different stocks or lineages have different characteristics to contribute to a population, we just do not know when they will be of the most benefit or value to the population. I like Tom Seeley’s explanation for the feral population he has studied for the past 30 some years. I am paraphrasing, but it was along the lines that individual colonies will come and go, but the population has remained relatively stable, even with the introduction of Varroa mites. Apiaries may be viewed in a similar way, individual colonies may come and go over time, but the apiary may live on.

Another point Deknow mentioned, and I think we may have discussed this in a previous post, is knowing what is best for the bees, VSH and hygienic behavior being two that were mentioned. Both behaviors occur at very low frequencies in an unselected population. Perhaps there is a reason for this. Both behaviors are energetically expensive. In other words, they are not behaviors that would naturally increase in frequency. In the broad scheme of things, they are more costly than they are worth, even in populations with heavy Varroa infestations.

Joe


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## squarepeg

thanks dean and joe. all that really makes good sense.

dan, just a friendly suggestion, but maybe beginners like you and i should be asking more questions rather than presenting 'information'.


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## Adam Foster Collins

So, if I am a beekeeper, trying to make the best start in moving toward the best bees for my part of the world, would it be a good idea to bring in a selection from a number of different breeders to begin with, as well as to collect swarms and cut-outs, and then select from there?

Or would you recommend just getting just one "kind" of bee from a reputable breeder, as well as collecting swarms and doing cut-outs and selecting from there?

Or some other route? 

Everything takes time. So in my own efforts, I just want to do my best to head down the best path I can. Asking questions here is my effort to benefit from people more experienced than I am. I hope to avoid some time-wasting efforts on poor ideas.

Joe says* "...knowing what is best for the bees, VSH and hygienic behavior being two that were mentioned. Both behaviors occur at very low frequencies in an unselected population. Perhaps there is a reason for this."*

This is what concerns me personally, and part of my questions surrounding diversity. Our interests are not always in the best interest of the bees, and sometimes we don't know it. So is it best to begin with stock with a wide range of genetic backgrounds, so that the bees of my apiary have the most "material" to work with as the "regional selection process" begins?

Adam


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## jim lyon

JSL said:


> In the broad scheme of things, they are more costly than they are worth, even in populations with heavy Varroa infestations.
> Joe


This is what I am having trouble understanding. Why isnt the "cost" of removing diseased or mite infected larvae/pupae a net positive on a hive when compared to a hive that is allowing them to mature or in the case of AFB, remain in the cell and infect other larvae. Arent you suggesting that an infected bee is better than no bee?


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## deknow

No Jim...that is not the point.

You do a number of things to prevent swarming. You don't do everything possible (inspect each frame every day or every week), why? Because the expense of losing a few swarms is low compared to the cost of labor to inspect every frame every week, and the cost to the colony that such a disruption causes. This doesn't mean that "a swarm is better than an inspection", it just means that some methods of inspection are worth your while, but other methods are not.

deknow


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## JSL

Jim,

In theory, traits like VSH are a good idea, in practice, not so much. Varroa Sensitive Hygiene is misleading. SENSITIVE is the key word here. It turns out bees with high “VSH” expression are Sensitive about a lot of things. They uncap and remove not only Varroa infested brood, but seemingly healthy and viable brood too. The cost of sacrificing healthy brood is very high to a colony. The cost of making “mistakes” really decreases the value of trait like VSH.

Hygienic behavior is another behavioral trait, although not as intense as VSH that requires bees to correctly identify diseased brood. If you go back and read the original research published by Spivak, their highly expressive lines did not always clean up/prevent AFB. Keep in mind this was with the highly selected and inseminated test colonies. What happens in the real world?

Dean also commented about people advertising a trait, but seldom doing the selection and evaluation for the trait. This is a big challenge for beekeepers to sort through. Testing for hygienic behavior is not too bad, but screening for VSH is time consuming!

Joe


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## Adam Foster Collins

Great.

So where does that leave people trying to work toward treatment free bees? If VSH isn't really a good thing, and if queen sellers aren't even necessarily selecting and evaluating for it anyway...

Where does that leave one, in terms of picking a direction to go? How does one make the best-guided attempt? What _*does*_ work in practice?

Adam


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## nada

how can anyone know all the gene combinations that could express hygienic behavior are recessive?


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## AstroBee

Adam Foster Collins said:


> What _*does*_ work in practice?


That was one of the primary issues that attracted me to the Pol-Line bee. These bees were outcrossed VSH bees that were field-tested and proven performers. The result, at least in my two years of experience with them has been outstanding. During the same two-year period I also tested pure VSH bees and had very poor results. Out of the 20 VSH queens (3 II and 17 F1 daughters) I've brought into my yards NONE are still alive today. In fact, I have only overwintered 1 VSH F1 daughter during this period, most dwindled and died before Fall.


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## cerezha

OK
I probably (if not already) will be labeled as a heretic after this post. This very useful discussion supports my personal feelings (as a biologist,not beekeeper) regarding bees genetic specifics. This is what I would do to accommodate Adam's initial request for bee-diversity :

Scenario 1 (remote area, enough space, no established bee-colonies around).
I would create 5-6 small isolated bee-yards at the distance 2-3 miles, so they are overlap, but not too much. I would place one established beehive with pure (as much as you wish) queen in each bee-yard and let them bee for couple of years. I would let them swarm and become feral if they wish. Each bee-yard should have a different initial genetics (pure queen). Eventually, some hives will die and would be replaced on bees with different genetics. Colonies, hopefully, will grow (some) and bees from different bee-yards will overlap and mix. _Note that this is most difficult scenario because commercially it is completely non-sound._

Scenario 2 (urban area, small number of colonies).
Simple - adopt a local feral bees! Let them grow their own queens. Do not re-queen since it will break a reproduction cycle and introduce unwanted genetics.

Scenario 3 (near commercial bee-estate).
Do not waste your time - move away! Commercial bee-estate would be a constant source of numerous problems AND mono-everything (bees, nectar source, treatments etc). I would imagine, that commercial people would think the same way about you: that you do something wrong with bees (do not treat, for instance) and it affects their business. 

It would be great if more experienced people would point on obvious flaws in my model and please, keep in mind,it is just my thoughts, which may be different from yours. Sergey


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## deknow

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Great.
> So where does that leave people trying to work toward treatment free bees? If VSH isn't really a good thing, and if queen sellers aren't even necessarily selecting and evaluating for it anyway...
> Where does that leave one, in terms of picking a direction to go? How does one make the best-guided attempt? What _*does*_ work in practice?
> Adam



Ok....by now you should realize that this isn't a simple answer, and it's certainly not _the_ simple answer that we are told (buy VSH breeders). I'm really glad that Joe has chimed in....these are important topics, and frankly, I've not found anyone willing to discuss them seriously. Most of the local, club run breeding programs I'm aware of start with VSH breeders open mated to the "locals"....and this is a losing proposition. There is a lot to discuss here.

First, Daniel is correct about one thing....producing queens isn't the same as breeding queens. I'd define things rather loosely, a producer is buying in genetics for every generation or two, a breeder is keeping stock from year to year, selecting and improving it (or at least trying to).

The best thing that could happen to beekeeping is that breeding becomes baseline practice. But somehow baseline amateur breeding seems to be to buy the VSH breeders.

So...I'll try to talk about where to start.

The first illusion is "the queen is always greener". Let's face it, you've heard about all these great bees...not just the VSH that we've been discussing, but Michael Bush's feral derived stock, Mike Palmer's northern queens, Weavers buckfasts, wild AMM, Kirk Webster's russian derived treatment free stock, Russians....you aren't looking for diversity when you look to combine these, you are looking for an all star team of genetics....the best genes from the four corners of the earth.

The truth is that any robust population has a rather diverse gene pool....otherwise it could not be stable (inbreeding). I suppose you could come up with some numbers of queens required to carry 85% of the traits of the population...but we'd probably be wrong, and with multiple matings and haploid drones, some traits are bound to stick around for many generations without obvious expression...so it would be hard to actually measure.

When you decide, especially on a small scale, how many diverse sources you are going to use, you are also limiting the "depth" of the parent population...as you have some kind of limitation on the number of source queens in total you are going to use.

Once you 've combined whatever sources you are going to use, now you have a hard task of sorting things out. People are often surprised when they hear me say that the goal of any breeding program is some kind of uniformity. Consider the following conversation:

"Can I offer you a free queen"?
"Do your bees handle mites well"?
"Some of them do".

...so, we want uniform mite resistance in our population of bees. That uniformity is not likely to come directly from a mishmash of 5 different sources. Each of these sources have their own combination and balance of traits that work within that particular population. Make some of these traits dilute in the mix, and they may not perform the same functions. Traits from different populations may well be at cross purposes.

In most natural situations, you have 2 populations (rarely 3) interfacing where the environment changes (as one travels down a large mountain range to a river valley below, one might encounter a few distinct populations that interface in these transitional zones). In the mishmash of a transitional zone, traits from one population that may be beneficial to the other are passed along through the zone and into the population at large.

The more lines you bring together, the more generations it will take you to approach some kind of uniformity, and the less diversity within each population you are working with. ...perhaps the genetic equivalent of "jack of all trades, master of none". In a very real sense, the strength of the parent lines you are considering _is_ the diversity within it....by starting with only a small sampling of the genetics, and by diluting it with other small samples of other genetics, you may well be throwing out the baby instead of the bathwater.

Have you noticed that I still haven't told you what you should do 

deknow


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## Steven Ogborn

Goodness...write alot to say very little. No real opinion yet as to how Adam can get his foot in the door to get the type
of bees he wants.


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## squarepeg

rumor has it ramona pulled him away just as he was about to tell....


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## deknow

If you are looking for a recipe, or paint by numbers for breeding bees, I will have to disappoint you.

No matter what you do there are trade offs. I can't really offer any more than to help you understand the tradeoffs so that you can make your own decisions. You are also free to make your own decisions without understanding the tradeoffs.

I know few (if any) beekeepers who are really happy with their queens....except for those that breed their own...and they all understand that breeding is a process...they are both happy with them, and are always trying to improve them. The type of bee that Adam wants is not a mystery....productive, mite resistant, gentle to work....this doesn't make me a mind reader, this is what virtually everyone wants. Have you noticed that no one is selling them? Have you noticed that there are no credible easy answers? Do you think that perhaps a deeper understanding of the issues might help Adam make decisions that will get him where he wants to be?

deknow


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## squarepeg

adam, if i were going to trap out ferals or catch their swarms, i would try to locate them early in the season. that way, i would at least know they made it through the harsh winter up there. i think that would be a good starting point to getting some hearty bees.


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## Steven Ogborn

Adam, Hope,hope,hope that those 10 Buckfasts you got have some mite resistance. Look for the one, ones, none that live from
being eaten up with mites. Raise your next round of queens from those. Don't cross your current Buckfasts with any VSH bees
in an attempt to transfer some type of mite resistance into the genes they currently have. It's just to risky and complicated,and 
you might not get a perfected bee from it. Don't raise bees from those Buckfast/VSH mutts that make it through next winter in an
attempt to tune your living bees into something that you like. It's not like it's been done before...Oh, wait. Yeah, catch those same
feral swarms, from the same stock you could buy where you're at now. The same stock that you've already been working with.
Okay I'll go with that.


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## Adam Foster Collins

Deknow,

Thank you for your detailed response. While it is not 'paint by numbers' as you say, it is still the kind of answer I'm looking for. I appreciate all the thoughtful responses each of you has offered. 

It seems that, like so much of beekeeping, we just don't know what to do. There are few 'right' answers, as a total understanding of the bee escapes us. Dean, your recent posting of the talk by Randy Quinn is relevant to this conversation as well. For all his 'success' in bee breeding, he seemed to think it was all misguided somehow, and that is telling. 

I'm going to start a new thread which is more specifically focused on my specific situation, and how I might move forward. The title of this one versus where it has wandered is now incongruent.

I hope you will continue with me there.

Thanks again,

Adam


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## deknow

...there is much more to discuss, we have not talked about the positive side of bottlenecking, success on a colony level vs. Population level, etc.

For the sake of continuity, i am going to continue on this thread.

Deknow


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## Adam Foster Collins

I am happy to learn whatever I can, wherever I can.

Thanks again - everyone.

Adam


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## Daniel Y

Deknow.a few other things I see that you missdirect..

Hybridization is a means to an end not the end in itself. You don't want to produce hybridized bees to sell in mass. Although many do for reasons of profit. For the most part it is a disaster. Hybrid bees are the way to consolidate a trait so that it can then be cross bred with other bees. hopefully resulting in several fixed traits in a non hybrid bee. I have said nothing about the reality of doing this. No it is not simple.

II is not a method to produce massive numbers of bees. One couple I read about manages to inseminate 2000 queens a year between the two of them. not exactly mass production. again it is a means to an end. control of genetics is relatively very few bees. those bees would then be used to produce the thousands of queens for sale.

So nothing I have been describing about II or in breeding or anything else is about mass production of queens.it is about getting the genes into or more importantly out of the queen you do want to mass produce. Just one queen. mass produced into the millions.

So can you take a Hyg. bee and breed it to a Hyg.bee and get a HYg.bee? Nope. and that is why you need to understand genetics. specifically the genetics of the bee. Do Hyg. bees turn out to be the holy grail of beekeeping? Nope, who thought they would be? Is any bee goign to be the perfect bee for everyone? Nope. It is most likely to be the best you can get and you will still have to live with it. Is a Hyg. bee that is less productive but disease free preferable to a disease ridden less productive, or dead one? IS it preferable that perfectly good brood is dead after 8 days so teh queen can get that cell productive again or that the bees dies in 28 days wasting more time. more room. more resources before it dies? You have to have an acute ability to see progress when progress is made. You have to be able to determine if it is even progress. If you continue to discount every advancement simply because it still contains some negative. you will never get anywhere. Do you have any idea how many people died in developing the heart transplant? How many times did Edison fail to make a light bulb work? That is the process you are looking at here. get through the how not to do it methods as fast as possible.

II, iNbreeding, outbreeding, cross breeding, rotational cross breeding, introduction of new genetics, Hybridization are all methods to an end. Not the sole way to that end. So you are the only one that thinks anyone is saying do this or that and get better bees. YOu say that none of these methods are hwo ti is done and then proceed to say what happens when it is done. SO which is it. are people usign these methods in breedign bees or not.

As for your definition of breeding or rearing. I am not sure what made you qualified to define them. if you want to do that for yourself fine. but the words do have definitions and I am not sure if anyone asked you if they where correct. But when I say breeding I mean breeding and when I say producing or rearing I mean rearing. you keep wanting to apply my words to methods of rearing. not breeding. Rearing queens is making a bunch of hives. producing thousands if not tens of thousands from them and open mating them, if they are mated at all.many are sold as virgins. The breeder is producing the queen the producer will buy. And you will not find them in the tens of thousands. it would likely have to be a top breeder that produces them in a couple of thousand at all. It is also likely that those couple of thousand breeders would have come from only one queen. There was after all only one Man o' war. You never mass produce the best. You can only mass produce from the best.


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## BeeCurious

Daniel Y said:


> Here is another factor concerning drones. since they are fully half of the equation they are a significant consideration.


I thought the male was only 25% of "the equation"...


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> Deknow...
> 
> As for your definition of breeding or rearing. *I am not sure what made you qualified to define them*. if you want to do that for yourself fine. but the words do have definitions and I am not sure if anyone asked you if they where correct.


Absolutely astonishing ....

Shall we invite _Daniel Y_ to detail his qualifications to speak authoritatively on this subject? Perhaps not, otherwise we may get more on such key points such as _Man o' War_ and the _lightbulb_.

:lpf:


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## Daniel Y

BeeCurious said:


> I thought the male was only 25% of "the equation"...


You will have to explain how you come to 25%.


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## Lauri

I have to say breeding bees is extremely difficult to maintain any kind of true genetic lines. I read everything youall write, and still am unsure of exactly how I will continue to, not only improve my stock, but perhaps contribute to the genetic lines in general.

For example:
I have a great stallion and a few nice mares. If I don't breed my mares every year..no matter, I still have exactly the same genetics next year to work with. 

Not so with the bees. Even if I could inseminate my stock, every year my lines would vary somewhat from the new generation of replacement population. Some call the dilution 'hybrids' and some call them 'mutts'. So the hybrids are high performers and the mutts are the average queens or the duds, LOL. They are all produced the same way and it's the breeder or producers job to keep the best and squish the unworthy.



I have about 20 daughters from my Glenn breeder queen I am overwintering, That queen never would build up much, I attributed that to the probable 'over hygienic' nature of this queen. Her best daughters are much better. I am assuming since the VSH gene is said to be recessive and assume this queen was homozygous for the recessive trait, my best generation of these daughters will be those that produce about 25% of the workers that exhibit the hygienic trait. Enough to keep the hive tidy, but enough non hygenic workers to build up and get down to business of producing product. 
(But Wait! I culled quite a few daughters from that Glenn queen, but truthfully the mother queens was probably unproductive because of the same reason she made a good breeder queen. Homozygous recessive genes. So those unproductive daughters I culled may have been great breeding stock for the same reason)

I have a real hard time breeding anything that is weak. Is it because of inbreedings desirable traits that it has a lack of vigor or is it because they are duds? 

Recessive genes suck.

I understand the significance of the two parent lines being inbred so they are homozygous for positive traits. Cross together they produce the F1 hybrid. Those offspring have almost a 100% predictable genetic outcome, especially if those homozygous traits are dominant.
You hope for a resulting line with the best traits from both parents+ the hybred vigor from the outcross.

But what confuses me a bit is many of you think the hybrids are just a dilution of pure lines and basically not the way to go. 
If I don't bring in any new lines, my stock will soon be survivor hybrids, always slightly changing and evolving, but will only consist of the high performers as long as I continue to cull without fail. Isn't that how all lines are eventually established? 


All great in theory, until the guy down the road buys new package bees up from California. There goes my drone purity percentage.

I assume the haploid nature of the drones is the key to keeping genes around as long as possible.. If a person collected drone semen the year before, froze it and inseminated daughter virgins from the over wintered sister queens, you'd have half of the next hybrid parentage without loosing too much in dilution. Cross those inbred daughters with unrelated drones with the traits you want and that season's hybrid cross is complete. Cross again too soon within those lines and you'd be at risk for inbreeding's predictable eventual cost-weak traits and poor vigor...But sometimes a superstar. Isn't that the lure?
I have heard though frozen drone semen is unstable and queens inseminated with it are superceded quickly. You'd have to be quick about harvesting your graft larva.


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## Adam Foster Collins

deknow said:


> ...there is much more to discuss, we have not talked about the positive side of bottlenecking, success on a colony level vs. Population level, etc.
> 
> For the sake of continuity, i am going to continue on this thread.
> 
> Deknow


I don't claim to know or understand much about genetics at all, and I'm still hoping Dean will continue with what he was offering here, as I was finding it very interesting.

Adam


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## Adrian Quiney WI

I think it was Larry Connor? who advocated, in one of the bee mags, alternating each year between two different bee suppliers. I would buy more queens if I lived closer to a breeder, but after seeing many timing, mail order, and supply problems discussed I buy very few and produce (not breed) my own. I have moved away from MH bees as the descendants of these had become too testy. My theory is that I will produce from the survivors of the bees I have, a mish-mash of genes from a trap-out I did, and a NWC queen I bought, and whatever the local drones will add to the mix. I cheat - I can't afford a set of breeder queens and figure that if I buy a queen each year from a reputable supplier there will be a healthy enough proportion of production genetics in there to give me bees that will work if I raise some queens from her. 
Evaluating queens seems to be fraught with so many difficulties that I wonder with what level of confidence the suppliers can make any claims. I am not skilled enough in observations to be overly selective. I propagate queens from hives that survive, it's really hard to propagate from the dead ones. 
The related questions I have are given the experience of the bee breeders/selectors, how long do you think it takes for a beek to produce a type of bee that is adapted enough to one's area? Are we talking in terms of years, or decades? I am 49, and that given with the fact that I can never see me having more than 100 colonies is a reason I don't worry too much.
My suggestion to Adam is don't sweat it too much. Do the best you can with what you can get. The Buckfast seems a good place to start.


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## Daniel Y

deknow said:


> Inbred lines are used for hybrid crosses (like the starline and midnight programs...I posted a video of Randy Quinn talking about these programs a few days ago). I don't know of anyone doing this kind of hybrid breeding today (doesn't mean it isn't happening, I just don't know about it if it is). This is _one_ way to approach breeding, and is not what is commonly practiced today. Not having inbred bees that need to be constantly propped up with frames of food and capped brood does not mean you are not a breeder. deknow


Yes I did watch the video. I almost have the impression I was seeing the second half of a two part video though (video of Randy) . The other one I could not either see well enough or hear well enough to make anything out. So no I don't think that information came through.




deknow said:


> II has it's uses (research, breeding programs), but it is not how one produces a good quality queen for production. II queens are generally used to raise production (open mated) queens. No one uses II queens for production...they are too expensive, and they do not perform as well as open mated queens. deknow


Well this begs to differ with you on the quality issue. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1051/apido:2007029?LI=true

The abstract of the above study is this.
Instrumental insemination, a reliable method to control honey bee mating, is an essential tool for research and stock improvement. A review of studies compare colony performance of instrumentally inseminated queens, IIQs, and naturally mated queens, NMQs. Factors affecting queen performance are also reviewed. The collective results of the data demonstrate that the different methodologies used, in the treatment of queens, has a significant affect on performance rather than the insemination procedure. Beekeeping practices can optimize or inhibit performance. The competitive performance of IIQs is demonstrated when queens are given proper care. The advantage of selection and a known semen dosage can result in higher performance levels of IIQs.


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## deknow

That's an interesting paper...it's not a study in itself, it is a review of some other reported results. Regardless of what was written in 2007, I'm not aware of anyone who actually does II today for production queens...both because of cost, and because of performance.

deknow


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## Oldtimer

Lauri said:


> I have to say breeding bees is extremely difficult to maintain any kind of true genetic lines.


Aint that the truth! 

For myself, I have not been able to genuinely achieve it. And I know at least one breeder using II who has also not been able to maintain his true lines regardless of the II.

Brother Adam appeared to be able to do it, and that was without II. Of more recent times Robert Russell has mastered the fixing of a trait, I would love to spend some time in his operation to do some learning.


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## Daniel Y

Dean I have pointed out several times II is not for producing queens. no way. Who can afford $100 plus queens for every hive. Plus I don't think anyone could Inseminate queens fast enough.

As far as being able to get a queen get a few queen cells from her and then let those virgins open mate. That woudl be exactly like me getting a pure bred dog of any kind and then let it run around the neighbor hood to breed. Am I going to get pure bred pups? Does anyone think that is a workable situation for breeding a quality line of dogs? Sure I may get lucky and my female gets caught by the fells pure bred champion down the road. that is if there is a pure bred champion down the road. Plenty of people say mutts make the best dogs as well.

So depending on your opinion of what a good dog is. It is pretty obvious I have zero chance of a pure bred but maybe a better than average dog out of my pups.

But if you buy a queen for a queen rearer (that is the mass producer selling queens for $25 each) and you like what you get. the only way to get it again is to go buy another one or get some of their breeding stock and breed your own from it. Now unless you need to breed quite a few queens it is not goign to be worth buying breeding stock. And still you will have to open mate them unless you get the breeders drones or semen from their drones and inseminate. Keep in mind the queen you bought from them was open mated. The queen they produced your queen from may have been inseminated.

I hope that helps put insemination in it's place for folks. There are a lot of decision that need to be made before you aver get to that issue. do you even desire that much control over the mating of the bees. are you satisfied with the open mating results in your area. Can you st up a few drone colonies just to boost the number of preferable drones in your area? 

Okay so most of us are the little guy like me and we really can't go to all this to get good queens. I know for me there is a big guy that is just 30 minutes away and another one 40 minutes away and a whole bunch of them including Randy of scientific beekeeping just an hour or two away. Susan Cobey is 2 hours from here. So how bout I let them do all this breeding insemination blah blah blah stuff and I just gets my queens from them when needed? Still I want to know what I am getting and why I picked it. I am not just going to buy some queen because someone is selling it. Any more than I would buy a registered purebred dog without giving a very careful looking over. I woudl want to see it pedigree. look at it's sire and dame, see it's litter mates. maybe talk to owners of other dogs from this pair. if they show I want to see the record of how the pair did in competition. Medical records proving they pair have been properly cared for and should be healthy. I will want to see a litter history on the mother size of litter mortality rate and any known health issue with any offspring she has ever produced. I will evaluate the pup as to it's development at it's age.

And I would take just as much care in choosing my queen. But I also need to learn what to be looking for as well. Dogs I know and I know well. bees not so much yet.


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## squarepeg

you can research your queen's linage to your heart's content, (at least what lineage there is to research).

and that can be useful, to a point.

but in the end, you just have to evaluate each queen's, (and her queendom's), performance.

you either like what you see, or you don't.

if you do, breed from her, give her lots of brood comb, and good luck.

if you don't, well, you get the idea...


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