# Brushy Mountain Nuc Box Dimensions!



## tommyt

Must be the Year of New Designs


Happy New Year 


Tommyt


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## greengecko

I have several Brushy Mountain deep and medium nucs. I like the dimensions. :scratch:


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## nabeehive

We also make our nuc box 9 1/4" wide. Most of the discussions I have with beekeepers is that the 9" or 9 1/8" nuc box is too tight and might cause you to roll a queen while inspecting or transfering the bees. Expecially with full drawn comb or over wintered nucs that have lots of wax and propolis build up.

On larger orders we end up custom building whatever the beek wants.


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## KQ6AR

Thats funny because, I have some bm top feeders, & inner covers for nucs. On my man lake nuc boxes the bm components are a little to small. I use them anyway.
I always assumes there nuc boxes where smaller than the ML boxes.


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## JRH

nabeehive said:


> We also make our nuc box 9 1/4" wide. Most of the discussions I have with beekeepers is that the 9" or 9 1/8" nuc box is too tight and might cause you to roll a queen while inspecting or transfering the bees.


Apparently you don't have the same concerns about rolling a queen in your full-sized boxes. At your web site, you say:

_"We manufacture all of our boxes to match the Langstroth hive standards. 

Dimensions:

10-Frame Hive Body: 19-7/8” x 16-1/4” x 9-5/8”
10-Frame Medium Super: 19-7/8” x 16-1/4” x 6-5/8”
10-Frame Shallow Super: 19-7/8” x 16-1/4” x 5-11/16”
8-Frame Boxes are 13-3/4” wide."_

The standard 16-1/4" outside dimension yields an inside width of 14-3/4 - the Langstroth standard width for 10 frames. Dividing that by 2 for five frames, I come up with 7 3/8" inside width and 8 7/8" outside width - that's the Langstroth standard width for 5 frames. As opposed to your 9 1/4!

Why is there any more likelihood of "rolling a queen" in a 5 frame nuc of standard width than in a 10 frame box of standard width. If there is, why don't you make your 10 frame boxes 16 1/2" wide?


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## greengecko

Your math maybe correct but your practical application is flawed. 

The standard frame width of Hoffman frames is 1 3/8".

Ten standard frames measure 13 3/4". In the standard 16 1/4" width box this arrangement allows 1" for frame manipulations.

Now apply the same to a 5 frame nuc.

Five standard frames measure 6 7/8". In a 9 1/4" width nuc this arrangement allows 7/8" for frame manipulations.

Given the lesser frame spread over time between 5 frames than between 10 frames one can reduce the 1" allowed for manipulations by 1/8" to 7/8" for 5 frame nucs. So you see the 9 1/4" exterior 5 frame nuc width fits the 16 1/4" exterior 10 frame Langstroth body logic quite nicely.


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## fish_stix

Good post Gecko! I make all my nucs 9 1/4 outside also. They work perfectly with 5 frames; plenty of room to remove one without rolling a queen, yet not too much space when the frames are centered. JRH; if you use those 9 3/8" deep boxes with a bottom board with 3/4" rim they 'll work OK as far as beespace goes.


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## JRH

You said:



greengecko said:


> Your math maybe correct but your practical application is flawed.
> 
> The standard frame width of Hoffman frames is 1 3/8".
> 
> Ten standard frames measure 13 3/4". In the standard 16 1/4" width box this arrangement allows 1" for frame manipulations.
> 
> Now apply the same to a 5 frame nuc.
> 
> Five standard frames measure 6 7/8". In a 9 1/4" width nuc this arrangement allows 7/8" for frame manipulations.


You are right about my math. Unfortunately, your logic is wrong. If 1" is the logical amount of room to leave for "frame manipulations" for 10 frames then 7/8" is TWICE as much as you need for "frame manipulations" for five frames.

As I said in my first post, there is nearly enough room in the Brushy Mountain box for 6 frames. Way too much for 5 frames. In the nuc environment where maintaining warmth is a major concern empty space is a bad idea - it's a waste of wood too.

Also, I remind you that the depth of the Brushy Mountain box is well short of the standard 9 5/8 - this in an environment where there is probably not going to be an inner cover to provide space above the top bars. As is, there is no bee space either above or below the frames. Another significant defect.


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## BeeCurious

Trim your frames to 1.25" and add a sixth frame...


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## greengecko

JRH said:


> You are right about my math. Unfortunately, your logic is wrong. If 1" is the logical amount of room to leave for "frame manipulations" for 10 frames then 7/8" is TWICE as much as you need for "frame manipulations" for five frames.


So you just need 1/10" extra space per frame?!?

I give up. They're your hives so build 'em or buy 'em anyway you want 'em!


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## greengecko

BeeCurious said:


> Trim your frames to 1.25" and add a sixth frame...


:thumbsup: That works for me with 9 in an 8 frame hive!

Bush Bees - Frame Width


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## BeeCurious

JRH said:


> I'd recommend the Rossman box.


Rossman nucs are nice. I have two complete five frame hives.

I also have two or three complete 5-frame hives from Brushy Mt.

But most of my nuc boxes are homemade...

Rossmans nucs are nice, and it's true that there is less "excessive" space in them, but it's not handy when their covers don't fit on BM or Miller nuc boxes.

I believe my homebuilt nuc boxes are smaller than BM or Miller's and I'm certain that the outer covers I built are larger than Rossman's.

Owning equipment from a single supplier has its avantages.


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## JRH

greengecko said:


> So you just need 1/10" extra space per frame?!?


What I need is the same extra space PER FRAME for the five frames in a 5 frame nuc that I get for 10 frames in a standard ten frame box.

Here's the math for 10 frames:

Standard Lang inside dimension: 14.5"
Subtract 10 Frames X 1.375 = 13.75
Space left over for 10 Frames = 1.00 inches
Space per frame (there are 11 spaces) = .909

I'd like to have that same space for my 5 frames.

Now the math for 5 frames in a Brushy Mountain box:

Brushy Mountain inside dimension: 7.75"
Subtract 5 Frames X 1.375 = 6.875
Space left over for 5 Frames = .875
Space per frame (there are 6 spaces) = .1458

This is more than 60% more space PER FRAME than provided by the standard Lang width. So when you say "so you just need 1/10" per frame?!?" - I'd say .909 is what I want but 1/10" is OK - not .1458.


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## Michael Bush

You can always make follower boards. They are very handy to have to fill odd spaces and those occur no matter what the design as there are fat and skinny combs that get moved around by the beekeeper...


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## BeeCurious

> Space per frame (there are 6 spaces) = .1458


There are six spaces? :scratch:

From my way of seeing things you will have two spaces of about 7/16" on each side.

A little propolis will easily gum up the math...


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## Roland

I am confused. You push the combs to one side, then remove one frame. The number of combs does NOT effect the space you need to remove ONE frame. Why are we dividing by the number of frames? You could have a horizontal hive with 50 frames, and still need the same space to remove ONE frame. 

Confused Roland


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## JRH

Roland said:


> I am confused. You push the combs to one side, then remove one frame.


Exactly. The additional space you need to remove one frame is the same in a five frame hive as it is in a ten frame hive. There is no need for more in a five frame hive.


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## Broke-T

I like a little extra room in nucs since I am making up splits. You pull frames from different hives and they never go together as close as you want. Wide honey at top or bowed frames and such. So a little extra wiggle room makes it easier to get frames in and out without damage. They are not there long term so the extra space is not a problem.

Although tops not fitting anywhere is agravating.

Johnny


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## greengecko

JRH said:


> If 1" is the logical amount of room to leave for "frame manipulations" for 10 frames then 7/8" is TWICE as much as you need for "frame manipulations" for five frames.





JRH said:


> The additional space you need to remove one frame is the same in a five frame hive as it is in a ten frame hive.


:scratch: Get back with us when you come to an agreement with yourself.


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## kbfarms

We just build them ourselves, that way its what we want.


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## ChristopherA

No one is perfect, mistakes happen. Call them up and express you feelings, maybe there was some flaw. Maybe a new dude or dudet were running the saws that day. They have excellent customer service. I would go that way prior to bashing on here.


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## Michael Bush

And I thought they were perfect. I just cut a 19 7/8" piece of one by ten and I have a lid...


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## EastSideBuzz

We build our 5 frame NUC's to hold 5 frames and an internal feeder.


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## WI-beek

This is the dilyo with SPACE for frame manipulation for the bees JRH that I think others are trying to point out that you may be missing! No matter how many frames or what size box or width of frames you have you want a certain amount of wiggle room to pull any given frame for what ever reason. You need to be able to squeeze frames aside and pull the frame you want out with out rolling bees on bridge comb. you will be thankful that you have an inch of forgiveness when you pull a frame out so you dont roll bees or the QUEEN herself.

That may seem exesive for a five frame box but when you are making nucs with frames five years old, may be dealing with queen cells, cages, and the like you need that inch of space not matter if it is one frame, or 20. Just squeeze your frames to one side leaving a frame with stores to the open side in your nucs.

All that said, I would not want the boxes you have with the lack of space on bottom. That I find odd and would call and complain about. You need space bellow frames so you dont crush bees when you put frames back in. You also have to account for burr comb one bottom bars. I find the depth dimensions of your boxes poor craftsmanship and would try to send them back.

What I found that works great for me is building the nuc wide enough for five frames and a frame feeder and maybe a quarter to 3/8" play (I find the width of a 1" x 10" perfect so it does not have to be riped). I also leave about an inch of room for underneath the frames so I can make nucs with swarm cells that are built on the very bottom of frames and so the queens dont ever get crushed during inspection. When I need to pull frames I have found that I can pull the feeder strait up without rolling any bees because there is very rarely comb built on outside of them or propolis and the plastic is smooth and bees dont get washborded on the side of it when it comes out like they do against comb. Then I have all the space in the world to pull my first frame out with almost no risk of killing the queen which is the most important concern of mine. I also have the capacity to add another frame to the box if they are getting crowded to relieve congestion till I can come back in a week or so with a ten frame box.


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## JRH

Thanks for your comments. In my original post I mentioned three problems:

- the extra width (which I thought unnecessary)
- that most of my outer covers don't fit the extra width
- and that there is no bee space above or below the frames

In reading the comments which followed, it is clear that there is no correct width for a nuc box and that various widths have staunch defenders!


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## BeeCurious

JRH,

Whose outer covers do you have?


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## Specialkayme

I ordered a BM deep nuc box last year and used it as a template to build four more of my own. When I put it together I thought "oh thank god I have some extra room to pull a frame out."

I bought a nuc box from Bjorn when I first started out, and that thing held five frames and nothing else. If one of the frames had some propolis on it, you had a hard time getting it in there. In fact, another beekeeper in NC (that I bought a nuc from, and had him put it in this box) told me it was crazy small, and he would have to "talk to Bjorn about what he's building." Of course it was made to be a transport nuc, not an all season nuc.

If I had the choice, I would build all my equipment the way BM built theirs. As a matter of fact, I designed all my nuc bottom boards, tops, and medium boxes to their dimensions. Everything works well for me.

To each their own though.


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