# Help with OA dribble mixture



## EssexStadir (Nov 16, 2016)

I need to mix up a small batch to treat my one hive. 

I have read several sources and from various people and while some are mostly the same there is some variance between the formulas. 

I'd really just like to know what the best mixture is (by weight or volume or whichever is the easiest). 


As I understand it, no more than 50 mL per colony. Any advice, specific instructions or tips would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks in advance.
Nick


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

I did a search using this web sites search located in the upper right side of the page which is just above advanced search.
Results are numerous:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/search.php?searchid=9648906

Regards,
Ernie


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

100g sugar
100ml (0,1 litre) water
7g oxalic acid as powder

warm the water, about 70 degrees of Celcius, do not boil
mix sugar
mix acid (it makes funny little sound)

it is ready

not any point making smaller dose, it is tricky
as it costs almost nothing, just throw away the unused and make new every year

dropping on top of bees, my experiments show that 28 ml is enough for an average hive (see diary, years 2001-2008)


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

the EPA label says "Dissolve 35 g of Oxalic Acid Dihydrate in 1 liter of 1:1 sugar: water (weight:volume)" and " The maximum dose is 50 ml per colony"
so 1000/50=20 doses
35/20= 1.27g mixed in 50ml of 1/1 syrup will give you the right dose for a single hive

however Juhani is correct in that if your off by a few 10s of a gram in such a small batch, your way off your percentages, so a larger batch size is easyer to controal


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## EssexStadir (Nov 16, 2016)

Thanks for the replies. I have an electronic scale so I should be able to measure out a fairly precise solution.
Juhani's concentration looks to be about somewhere in between Randy Oliver's weak and medium concentration so I think I'll stick with that one. That gives me a fair amount of error to work with and since it's my hive's first year I think it'll be just fine.

Based on the time of year and the current temps, I think this morning (once I get home from work) will be a perfect time to make and apply the solution.

Wish me luck. Thanks again for the help.


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## EssexStadir (Nov 16, 2016)

Ok. That's a wrap. 
The solution mixed together nicely. My wife and I went out and got the supers pulled apart. One thing I'm happy to report is that the supers are HEAVY. They should have plenty to feast on through the winter.

They were focused primarily in the centers as expected. I dribbled ~25mL/super in the seams focusing mainly on the bee-dense seams. 

Other than the bees that found their way in my suit and the sting I took to the neck, everything went well.
I flipped the entrance upside down so that the open part was facing up as was advised by many people.
The mouse guard is still holding up well.

There was quite a pile of dead bees on the floor of the bottom board and I helped swipe some of them out. But I don't think I should be too concerned. There's lots of bees in there and they looked good. They were exhibiting the type of behavior that I'd expect during this time of year and during these temps. 

I think they are good for the winter. Unless a very bad cold snap or a bad storm is expected I will probably leave them unwrapped.

Thanks again for the help.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

> I need to mix up a small batch to treat my one hive.


As you probably already read in forums, your solution should have 3.2-3.5% of oxalic acid weight/weight. (it is so confusing sometime w/w or w/v)
To make it easier, I count water/liquid as 1ml=1gr, and yes, as I know you should 5ml per sim or total 50ml per deep. 

For my 2 hives I use 50ml hot water, add 1/4 sugar, mix it, then add 3.5 gr of oxalic acid and if needed, I top it to 100ml total.
Fill my 2 50 ml syringe and go to my hives.

50-60 ml syringe you can find at Walmart or some other stores which sells turkey/meat curing things, usually at grilling department.

Good luck!!!
Happy Thanksgiving!!!


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Did you really have all corridors full of bees? That is the case when 50ml is needed.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

> 100 ml is absolutely too much.


Juhani, you misread what I wrote:
I said I use 100ml for 2 hives, which makes it 50ml each.

Hm, simple math problem.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

I made the correction after reading it more carefully, and before your reply 

50ml is as well really too much for 90% of hives.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Based on my experiments, I have suggested that to get higher varroa resistance, an easy way would be to give all hives once a year oxalic acid drippling of 15 ml.

That would:
- minimize the harmful effects of acids to bees
- be enogh to kill so many mites, that most of the beekeepers hives survive with no problems
- the hives with highest mite numbers would die, which would be good and very easy selection
- the problems will rise later, this gives the beekeeper time to adapt to the reality of TF beekeeping


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## Forgiven (Nov 17, 2016)

Or you could be breeding oxalic resistent mites...?

While I do appriciate the attempt to create mite resistent bees, I'm honestly bit puzzled by the 'let's kill only some of them' approach. Would you not get same selection by treating to kill the 90%+ mites the full dose kills and selecting for hives that had lowest mite loads for breeding?

(P.S. for now quite irrelevant, since it'll take me a while to get there, but are any of your breeding yards near the Ruovesi - Orivesi border, got a cottage near there (SW of siikaneva) and I've been considering the area for place that I could maybe use for queen breeding some time in future)


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Juhani Lunden said:


> 50ml is as well really too much for 90% of hives.


That is the dose per hive recommended on scientificbeekeeping.com and the one I use myself. I have done so for several years with no losses. See my experiment from last summer 2016 OAD trial for more details.

JMO

Rusty


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Forgiven said:


> Or you could be breeding oxalic resistent mites...?
> 
> While I do appriciate the attempt to create mite resistent bees, I'm honestly bit puzzled by the 'let's kill only some of them' approach. Would you not get same selection by treating to kill the 90%+ mites the full dose kills and selecting for hives that had lowest mite loads for breeding?
> 
> (P.S. for now quite irrelevant, since it'll take me a while to get there, but are any of your breeding yards near the Ruovesi - Orivesi border, got a cottage near there (SW of siikaneva) and I've been considering the area for place that I could maybe use for queen breeding some time in future)


No, you would not get the same result without losses, that is what I think. But hey, I have only done this varroa resistance breeding for 15 years. Too early to say.

To the other question: Finland is a free country to do what ever you wish. I actually want to do co-operation with all beeekeepers here in Ruovesi to create the first varroa resistant drone zone in Finland.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> That is the dose per hive recommended on scientificbeekeeping.com and the one I use myself. I have done so for several years with no losses. See my experiment from last summer 2016 OAD trial for more details.
> 
> JMO
> 
> Rusty


Recommendation By the Finnish Beekeeepers Association is 5 ml/ corrridor full of bees.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Rusty, do you have certain time table for treating with OAD?

I have similar hives as you described in your article.
I treated mid October and didn't get much dead varroa mites on sticky board.
2 weeks ago was doing an inspection in search of wax moth and decided "lets do another treatment" and happy that I did - got good amount.
Not that I am happy that that many were in the hive, as I randomly decided to treat bees and got that many mites dead.

I know it's most effective when its done when there is no brood, especially caped brood.

Any suggestion on timing? how often?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

There is absolutely no point making drippling in ANY other time but broodless time. The area of a mans hand is enough to make treatment useless.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Recommendation By the Finnish Beekeeepers Association is 5 ml/ co*rrr*idor full of bees.


I guess "corrridor" is the sim in the US. (oh boy, how many english languages I know  )

If they are not full of bees, the treatment will drop down on the floor, so no overdosing will happen


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Thanks for the english lesson. I mean it.

The solution will however not drop on the bottom board, or at least I have never seen it. It will stay on the combs, available to bees to get an overdosis.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Tip:
Before going out to the yard warm the syrup treatment mix. Find a container that will fit inside a styrofoam cooler to help conserve the warmth. Your applicator gun will work much better with warm syrup


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## Forgiven (Nov 17, 2016)

Juhani Lunden said:


> To the other question: Finland is a free country to do what ever you wish. I actually want to do co-operation with all beeekeepers here in Ruovesi to create the first varroa resistant drone zone in Finland.


Indeed, that was sort of why I am asking, I doubt I'll have a very varroa resistent bees if I start breeding there and I wouldn't want to hinder your efforts. But that's at least two years away time wise, plans might change, the location just came to my mind as 'pretty isolated' and I don't recall having seen hives anywhere in the woods...


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## Forgiven (Nov 17, 2016)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Recommendation By the Finnish Beekeeepers Association is 5 ml/ corrridor full of bees.



I've been seeing 4ml mostly everywhere, maybe they have reduced it?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

May be, 8 years since I used...


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Artur_M said:


> Rusty, do you have certain time table for treating with OAD?
> 
> I have similar hives as you described in your article.
> I treated mid October and didn't get much dead varroa mites on sticky board.
> ...


I am in Alabama in zone 7B. This year I treated once in March, 3 times in August (on the 1st, the 8th and the 15th), and one final treatment between Thanksgiving and December 1.

HTH

Rusty


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> I am in Alabama in zone 7B. This year I treated once in March, 3 times in August (on the 1st, the 8th and the 15th), and one final treatment between Thanksgiving and December 1.
> 
> HTH
> 
> Rusty


Thanks Rusty,

I am in zone 7 too, am not sure if it's A B C ?? Central Maryland.

Is there any particular reason for choosing that schedule?


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Early March is about when I make up any starter hives for the new year and I like to get them treated as soon as possible. August is right before our fall flow, and the week between Thanksgiving and December 1 is about the only time my hives are broodless or nearly so.

HTH

Rusty


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

> 3 times in August (on the 1st, the 8th and the 15th)


I was originally was planning to go "3 times" way too, but worn that it might be too harsh for bees to handle, so I went with single shot.
How did your bees took it? 3 shots 1 week apart?

I started my colonies in July, so they are less than 1 year old.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

msl said:


> so 1000/50=20 doses
> 35/20= 1.27g mixed in 50ml of 1/1 syrup will give you the right dose for a single hive
> l


whoops typo it should be 1.75g



Juhani Lunden said:


> 100g sugar,
> 100ml (0,1 litre) water
> 7g oxalic acid as powder
> my experiments show that 28 ml is enough for an average hive (see diary, years 2001-2008)





Juhani Lunden said:


> 50ml is as well really too much for 90% of hives.


Remember you’re not talking apples to apples (aside from the massive sunlight, broodless, and weather differences) the strength of syrup is different 
100g+100ml gives us 160ml of syrup 
160ml+7g is .04375g per ml
100ml+3.5g is .035g per ml

your 28cc dose would be 1.225g per hive vs the American MAX dose of 1.75g per hive that not a massive difference especially as colony size is not part of the equation


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

msl said:


> your 28cc dose would be 1.225g per hive vs the American MAX dose of 1.75g per hive that not a massive difference especially as colony size is not part of the equation


I´m not sure if I remember right the 7g, maybe it is 5? Because that gives 3,1% solution(5/160ml). 3,1% solution concentration is the fiqure I remember right for sure.

Anyway, my point was that dripple treatment is totally different from OAV. There is serious risk for overdosis. I just met a larger beekeeper with 700 hives. He had for some time used two OAD treatments, late autumn (no brood) and spring. Now he has come to the conclusion, that two OAD treatments is too hard for the bees. He will from now on use only one time OAD and use Thymol as the second treatment. (In Finland there are so called "Thymol bads" for sale, http://www.mesi.fi/tuotteet/tymoltyyny-12-g/)


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Artur_M said:


> I was originally was planning to go "3 times" way too, but worn that it might be too harsh for bees to handle, so I went with single shot.
> How did your bees took it? 3 shots 1 week apart?
> 
> I started my colonies in July, so they are less than 1 year old.


Good point. I ran my little test on established colonies and had no discernible losses. The queens didn't even slow down their laying. The 3x in August has now become a standard part of my yearly regimen for any hives testing out positive for mites on August 1.

Rusty


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