# Combine treatment free hives?



## NJBeeVet (Jan 3, 2019)

Hi all, I'm sure this has been discussed in other threads but I could find it. What are the thoughts on what to do with those small colonies in the fall that you know are doomed from parasitic mite syndrome? Do you combine these to stronger hives, euthanize them, allow them to die and get robbed out? I'm heading into winter 4 treatment free and am about to do some of my final inspections for the year and wanted to come up with a gameplay before I get in there. I have ten colonies in top bar hives, all of which were in good shape a couple of weeks ago but i know how quickly that can change this time of year. For some background, I'd say I've had mixed results so far between 40-70% loss in the last few winters, but it's not much worse than when i was treating. I've seen the telltale signs of a hive dying from mites but I'm never sure what the right thing to do with them is since I'm not treating. What is everyone's opinion here on how to handle these hives in the late fall?


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## NUBE (May 24, 2009)

I wouldn’t combine weak hives that you are pretty sure are mite infested with stronger hives that seem to be in good shape. If you come across some that are dwindling, you strongly suspect mites are the cause, and you’re dead set against treating; I’d condense them as much as possible, put a robber screen on them and hope that keeps them from mite bombing my other hives. I guess if you ran across multiple weak hives with the same symptoms that you could squish one of the queens and combine those, but I’d still fashion a robber screen for them.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

NJBeeVet said:


> What is everyone's opinion here on how to handle these hives in the late fall?


@NJBeeVet: Are these small hives exhibiting overt signs of DWV infection? Depending on your climate, I've had clusters no larger than a softball overwinter successfully and bounce back.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

agree with Nube
do not add a mess to a good hive this time of year.
One of the features of TF is some are gonna die.
either take the hit and split out a new split next year, OR treat and not be 100% TF any more.

seems the hive is dyeing, you know what the outcome is, either it is a part of your plan, or you adjust the plan.
putting suspected infested bees in with good bees is a less good plan then doing nothing.
Shaking them out in the yard also has them joining healthy hives.
doing nothing allows them to be robbed out, maybe loosing another hive or 2.
if hive death is sure, shake them into a wash tub of soap water at night with a head lamp, "Remove" the suspect bees and salvage the comb and hives.

this is one of those "rock and a hard place" choices, several poor option exist.
I would attempt to minimize the damage.
TF has its moments....

read somewhere the Apiary lives and dies from the strongest 20% of hives
So, big picture, these , are not your breeders and future. it only matters if the 20% are or get affected, by your action or lack of action.

Sorry I have no better options.
been in your shoes many times.
had several 50% loss years, I'm better at splits now 

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

NJBeeVet said:


> .........
> What are the thoughts on what to do with those small colonies in the fall that you know are doomed from parasitic mite syndrome?
> ........ What is everyone's opinion here on how to handle these hives in the late fall?


Changed my mind and altered my post.

Actually - now days I'd treat them, try to pull through the winter, then use them for spare parts next year.
Them, the spare parts, are a valuable resource.

This approach works well for me now.

In the past, I'd just let them sink (but prevent robbing, of course).

But with such approach I just never had enough bees come spring since most died.
In fact, I hardly had any bees in the spring - spring after spring.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Worst option is to do nothing. They for sure will drag down your good colonies. Been there.

If they are already pretty far gone, like you can see them dragging infected larvae out the front door, and can spot live mites on bees. then it is too late for most any treatment to save the colony anyway. At that point I'd soap wash them. If you let those infected bees go into good colonies they will bring all the virus with them, and also mites.

On the other hand, if they appear healthy, and simply have a higher mite load than you like, maybe pinch the queens and dump the bees out and let them go into neighbor colonies. I would not combine colonies though, especially not with capped brood.


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## NJBeeVet (Jan 3, 2019)

AR1 said:


> Worst option is to do nothing. They for sure will drag down your good colonies. Been there.
> 
> If they are already pretty far gone, like you can see them dragging infected larvae out the front door, and can spot live mites on bees. then it is too late for most any treatment to save the colony anyway. At that point I'd soap wash them. If you let those infected bees go into good colonies they will bring all the virus with them, and also mites.
> 
> On the other hand, if they appear healthy, and simply have a higher mite load than you like, maybe pinch the queens and dump the bees out and let them go into neighbor colonies. I would not combine colonies though, especially not with capped brood.


I like this plan. I was considering treating the bees and freezing the brood but you would still have high virus load bees being shaken out onto other hives. I have to realize those bees are going to be short lived and just a detriment to whoever they go to. I try not to get into the hives after Halloween so maybe a good plan of action would be a soap bucket trip available on my last inspection of the year to take out the know goners. Im not as worried about hives dying in mid winter because Ive rarely seen robbing being a major issue at that point


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

drop formic pads NOW to limit damaging your neighbors colonies who likely have worked responsibly to manage their mite loads.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

COAL REAPER said:


> drop formic pads NOW to limit damaging your neighbors colonies who likely have worked responsibly to manage their mite loads.


That sounds like a good idea. Even in a TF yard, getting rid of mites on hives you do not plan to keep alive is a really good plan.


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