# Disclaimer for nuc sales.



## RogerCrum (Jun 19, 2011)

Adrian, you are an honest businessman. Honesty continues to be the best policy. You will never regret those words and your customers will be well advised to heed them. Rog


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maybe you'd be as well off w/ a No Garuantees Once Off My Property Policy.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Roger thanks. 
Mark, it might be worth adding something like that. Thanks.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Especially if they notice something a month or two after that nuc left your property.


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## HeritageHoney (Feb 28, 2013)

The closest I can make to a guarantee when I sell a package or nuc is this: "If you do everything right as a manager, and if everything goes right in nature, then in 6-10 weeks, only one bee (then queen) will still be alive out of the tens of thousands in this package or nuc I'm selling you." I would encourage you to tell your customers this, especially beginners, so they really think about the dynamics of a bee colony.

I like your line "Bees kept in hives are livestock and need to be managed", and I use similar terminology in what I give to my customers. Here is part of what I state in writing with both package and nuc sales: "Employ sound management practices to provide the best opportunity for your colony to thrive. Remember, honeybees are living organisms. Some colonies struggle while others may exceed expectations. Comparing multiple colonies in a location gives the best indication for what is 'normal'." 

The fact is, even if we provide the best management available, we still aren't in complete control, and a colony may die out--I explain this to customers.

I also explain to my customers that these are insects that we've decided to put in boxes! The irony is that honeybees are one of the most highly developed "social" organisms being "managed" by one of the most socially inept organisms on the planet! Okay, I'm being a little over the top here, but you get my point. The truth is, there are too many factors beyond our control, many which we know about (drought, too much rainy weather, late frost, etc.), and many which we haven't discovered yet (unknown viruses, etc.), that make beekeeping a challenge. When you are up against nature, you can't always win with your focus just on quality, nor can you win with your focus just on quantity. You have to focus on both, and then when the things beyond your control take their toll, survival of a few would be counted as victory.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I didn't get that much of a disclaimer when I bought my house!
I realize common sense isn't so common anymore, but it HAS to play a part in everyday life.

BTW, you forgot to mention bees can sting.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

First, you should have an inspection report from your state apiculturist. This is for your benefit as well as the purchaser. 

Then, if the purchaser is a new bee, you should give them a printout explaining how to install and manage their new nucleus colony. You should give them tips on how to prevent swarming. Many beginners will give a box of foundation to their new colony. You know how these over wintered nuclei build up. They're too strong too fast. Many will swarm if they aren't handled properly...which means moving some brood up into the foundation, or using a mix of comb and foundation. They need to know that they build up more quickly than any package they've ever installed and additional boxes have to be added in a timely fashion. If they are using drawn comb, these little colonies will fill the second brood box and need supers very quickly after giving the second brood box.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> First, you should have an inspection report from your state apiculturist. This is for your benefit as well as the purchaser.


Which you get from VT I assume. Do you get one from NY too? Yes? How?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

From Vermont, for sure. The New Yorkers killed their inspection program with their whining and bickering...in my opinion.

If your state doesn't have an inspection program, what can I say. Do you need an inspection certificate to take your bees to South Carolina? Does anyone in New York, who is selling bees need a certificate? 

If your state doesn't have an inspection program, at least for those selling bees...I would consider showing the purchaser the brood and agree on the fact that there is no disease. I realize that for a large producer this probably won't happen. But, for a small producer, I think it will save you a lot of grief later on.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If NY inspects anyone's nucs it would be 10% of some number most likely. How many or what percentage does VT inspect? Does VT inspect the nucs or the parent hives to issue a Nuc Health Certificate?

I don't know if NY inspects any nucs before being sold. Never heard that they did. 

Yes, I need an inspection before leaving the State for SC. SC inspects them there too before they head North. I have heard that NY may stop doing their part.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know if NY inspects any nucs before being sold. Never heard that they did.


Would they if you asked?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, I need an inspection before leaving the State for SC. SC inspects them there too before they head North. I have heard that NY may stop doing their part.


Has anyone ever asked you to see your inspection report when you enter either state? If so who would you have to show it too? thanks


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> If NY inspects anyone's nucs it would be 10% of some number most likely. How many or what percentage does VT inspect? Does VT inspect the nucs or the parent hives to issue a Nuc Health Certificate?


Because I was going to be selling nucleus colonies, the inspector looked into about a hundred nucs, and each was a thorough exam.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Looks good Adrian. I'd sell them as a final sale, as that's how bees are sold up here. And after all, all that happens after they leave your care is not your responsibility. Your reputation will be the selling point on the hives. 
You could maybe provide an extra queen as reassurance,.?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Would they if you asked?


No idea. Never thought it necessary.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> Has anyone ever asked you to see your inspection report when you enter either state? If so who would you have to show it too? thanks


No. I didn't get my Health Certificate until I got home from SC. Actually got NY and SC paperwork in the same batch of mail. So, Albany doesn't think it important for me to have when in transit. Makes me wonder if it is important to anyone other than the Beuraucrats?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I've about about 6 nucs over the last two years. Each time, I just pick'em up and head home. Installation is simple - just swap the frames into the new hive body. Maybe a total rank newbie would benefit from a sentence or two of instructions on how to swap frames . . . ? Instructions for how to manage the bees seems like way over-kill for just buying a nuc.

I buy the nucs based on the seller's reputation. It would seem very odd to me to be handed a sheet of paper with a bunch of legalese directed toward CYA for the seller. In fact, that would diminish his credibility, in my eyes - all the CYA'ing would make me wonder why he has so little confidence in his bees surviving.

That's just me, though.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Does anyone provide a written disclaimer with their nuc sales?


We and other groups in the area have written guidelines for nuc producers which are also shared with customers- and available from the club. They state basic quality you should see (minimum frames of brood, etc.) that the queen should be laying (not caged) with her brood in the nuc, and less than 1 year old, and a few basic management things. Increasingly I see individuals giving a written hand out with installation instructions and management tid bits similar to what is mentioned already on this thread. I think your local context also matters. Here many of the clubs in the region have done a fair amount of education on nucs - including a module on nuc installation in our 10 county wide Bee School curriculum, but there is also now much more education available via articles etc. I have searched and found that several folks have installation and management hand outs they give out with nucs and make them available on websites, etc. 

One thing you might also find is that there are various types of nucs being sold- overwintered, spring splits, and those I termed "snow bird"- those might be local folks but their bees spending the summer down south, split up and queened in Spring and then shipped North, but physically purchased "locally." Then there are out of state nus- places like Jester I guess ship up hundreds from Florida for example, or other folks have bees in Maine and in Florida. I spend some time in our club and classes educating folks on the different types of nucs - For example, Snow bird nucs may not actually be "local" bees even if sold locally, Spring splits are not going to outgrow the box quite as quickly as an overwintered nucs, etc. 

A Guarantee? Not that I have seen, but in a few cases if something goes terribly terribly wrong, those of us within the club have worked cooperatively and do what we can within reason to help get someone back in bees... I have not yet heard of customers trying to exercise any sort of right or guarantee after a nuc purchase- I think it is more likely they will have not so nice things to say about the producer and that could be potentially damaging.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe you'd be as well off w/ a No Garuantees Once Off My Property Policy.


that's mine. I tell each customer that we cannot be responsible for anything that happens to their bees once the nuc leaves my hands.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Having an inspection doesn't mean you have to give every customer a copy. It's so you have a copy so when one of those customers comes down with AFB in the nuc, from using used equipment, or with disease in the neighborhood, you are covered.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I guess I am different. 

I don't sell a lot of nucs, (I have averaged 125 + each year for the past 15 + years), but, I give the customer a 100%, no questions asked, guarantee on all my nucs, and complete hives. I don't care if its 1 month, 5 months or 1 year.. I dare say in the past 15+ years I have not had to replace over a half dozen nucs. All of these, in my opinion, were the fault of the purchaser, but, I replaced them with a smile and said, "come again when you need bees" . I do not believe any of them were trying to "game" me. I do tell new beekeepers what they need to do, and I try to set up a little time to show them what to do. I answer question any time they need help. 

There are several members of beesource who have purchased from me in the past, and, as of today, I have never had a complaint on my bees. I REALLY BELIEVE this policy will pay off in the long run. It has for me. But, everyone needs to do what works for you. All beekeeping is local.

cchoganjr


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe you'd be as well off w/ a No Garuantees Once Off My Property Policy.


You could add this but I must admit the detail in what was originally written

I also would advise having the purchaser look at the nuc frame by frame before leaving your property. I must admit I was astonished by the variability in condition of some the nucs I purchased. Now I would ask to see them before accepting them.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

There are some good points in here and plenty to ponder on. Ian, I am unlikely to be able to offer an extra queen as insurance as I won't have any by then. My queens will come from splits, and hopefully, later in the summer I might be able to get some from a couple of local guys who plan to raise some from local stock. 
I become more optimistic the further I get through winter; Based upon beesource advice I am not taking any further orders at present because winter still has a long ways to go, and I don't want to damage my reputation. I believe this areas teaching methods assume that the buyer will be getting packages, so I do believe (as MP points out) that the customers need to be warned of population explosion and I need to sell them before they swarm due to overcrowding. 
I won't be selling so many that it will be a problem for me to, with the customer, inspect the bees before they go. At the most this year I anticipate I will have 20 overwintered 5 over 5's to go. 
I think it will be March before I have a better tally of what will be available for sale. 

Then I will have to think about prices for the ones I haven't promised...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A guy in Northeastern NY is selling nucs for $175.00 each. The price keeps going higher and higher.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Betterbee is getting $205.00 for overwintered nucs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What are they getting for 2014 Southern Grown Nucs?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

They are selling Jester nucs for $140.00, however, this is a one day pickup, nucs pulled off the truck and distributed, kind of like packages. Don't know if you can inspect them. Last year, when I sold Kevin's nucs I allowed inspection... they are good nucs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I wonder what Brushy Mtn will be selling their nucs for?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Wow, what a disclaimer. Personally, I wouldn't touch you with a 10 foot pole.

I tell my horse shoer, when he is trimming a young horse: "If he is not cooperating, don't trim him. It's not your job to train my horse"


Same goes for selling nucs. It is not YOUR job to teach them everything about beekeeping, you are simply selling a product. Learning Management skills and techniques are up to them. 

If you have confidence you have _*healthy quality nucs*_ and have NOT made or implied any guarantees, I would simply offer them your product and not complicate the issue. They are going to want to stay and talk for a few minutes, regardless. Since you are not selling in huge volumes, Why not take those few minutes to help them inspect the nuc before they take possession of it. Show them clean frames, healthy brood and the queen before they leave. Then there is no question. 

If you try to disclose everything, there are too many variables that can come back on you, if questioned at a later date. You can disclose until the cows come home, and there will likely still be a small few who will complain. 

I sold a few tomato seedlings a few years ago, and had one guy come back months later and tell my it was my fault it rained in August and his tomatoes rotted on the vine. 
You just have to deal with that sort of thing on an individual basis with as much patience and tact as possible. 

Simply stated, "Bees are an agricultural product that is sensitive to weather, exposures, parasites and management practices of the beekeeper. Your rate of successful beekeeping, especially if you are new at it, cannot be guaranteed."

When I started out I was told: "Don't get more than one or two hives, they will probably just die the first year." 

I thought that was an incredibly negative thing to say. Perhaps it would be better stated:

First year beekeepers colonies should be considered an 'educational expense'. Even if the new beekeeper makes mistakes and the colony doesn't overwinter, they still have gained valuable experience and newly drawn and filled frames that can be used to great benefit the next year.

As a local queen producer, I get many calls during our late summer dearth. "I _think_ I am queenless" they say. I tell them to try a few things to double check, including feed the hive some of 1:1 over the course of a few days and then call me. Most of the time they are amazed after feeding they once again are seeing brood. But some of them were mad at the _nuc supplier_ they dealt with a few months prior, for selling them a colony with a 'failing queen'. Just one example of what your up against. 
Sometimes it seems like I talk more people OUT of buying queens than into them, especially that time of year. But it a part of establishing a reputation for being knowledgeable and honest.

I guess what I am trying to say is: I think you are being honest, but brutally so. In my opinion, you will scare away some customers with it and your disclaimer will probably not protect you as much as you might think.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I think I am going to use something like this for PACKAGES and NUCS..... 

Unfortunately we live in a new era of the internet and TF bloggers... A LOT of new beekeepers think you put them in a box and they work.
This is a good way to get that point across, It ain't so.....and they can peruse it at their leisure.

What happens is we tell them all this stuff when they pick them up, but they are so glossy eyed and nervous none of it sinks in....

Well written and thought about Adrian.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here is an example I'd like to add. This thread had a lot of views and a lot of replies. It was very interesting to see it unfold. 

Even though I posted measurements and temperatures for making the bricks + photos, some folks _*changed*_ the recipe, _*changed*_ the temperature and cooked the mix instead of drying it. They were surprised and dismayed to find a big glob of goo. They omitted the essential oils yet were surprised it had a vinegar smell, when sugar and vineger were essentially the _only_ ingredients. I got one PM from someone that was ticked at me for posting a' bad recipe'.
It was a good lesson on how the human mind works. In discussion with a few of these folks, they admitted they had a pre conceived idea about cooking the winter mix and totally overlooked the direction to dry it at a lower temp. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290641-My-recipe-method-for-sugar-blocks

Again, my point is: No matter what you say or how clear you try to make it, there will be some who misunderstand. How to overcome this? I'm not really sure.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Reminds me that I have my Grandma Mame's pancake recipe and as hard as I try I cannot get it to be like what I recall her pancakes being like. I don't have any lard, so I use oil. I don't have any farm made butter milk, so I use the store bought kind.

Grandma died a long time ago. Even were she alive I wouldn't call her up and cuss at her for my mistakes. Boy oh, Lauri. Some people.

I'm thinking of asking for a persons Master Beekeeper Certificate or AAS Degree in Beekeeping before I let them pay me $200.00 for a 5 frame nuc.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

What, they don't look like this? 










A title or piece of paper may impress some. It means nothing to me. Before I spend time to attend classes, the instructor needs to be doing better than I in actuality, not theory.

Look what a Dr. title did for Russell? Is that really what people want? There are a LOT of people on Beesourse without a title I would turn to, over those with credentials. 

Genetics classes are a possibility though. Maybe _you_ should consider pancake cooking classes  LOL, Make Grandma proud


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## mtndewluvr (Oct 28, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm thinking of asking for a persons Master Beekeeper Certificate or AAS Degree in Beekeeping before I let them pay me $200.00 for a 5 frame nuc.


...or come up with a "Beekeepers 101" test that they have to pass before purchasing one of your nucs.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Lauri said:


> Wow, what a disclaimer. Personally, I wouldn't touch you with a 10 foot pole.


Same here. It's one thing to say that you aren't responsible, but that disclaimer pretty much says "Hey bob, all of the bees you buy from me are weak and likely to die whatever you do". You make it sound as if your bees are terrible and not worth the purchase, while I don't think that's the message you are trying to bring across.



Lauri said:


> Here is an example I'd like to add. This thread had a lot of views and a lot of replies. It was very interesting to see it unfold.
> 
> Even though I posted measurements and temperatures for making the bricks + photos, some folks _*changed*_ the recipe, _*changed*_ the temperature and cooked the mix instead of drying it. They were surprised and dismayed to find a big glob of goo. They omitted the essential oils yet were surprised it had a vinegar smell, when sugar and vineger were essentially the _only_ ingredients. I got one PM from someone that was ticked at me for posting a' bad recipe'.
> It was a good lesson on how the human mind works. In discussion with a few of these folks, they admitted they had a pre conceived idea about cooking the winter mix and totally overlooked the direction to dry it at a lower temp.
> ...


Haha, I cooked mine. Should I not have? Without a dehydrator, seemed like the only way. Put in wet sugar in cake molds in the oven, at low heat, let 'em boil for a few hours, then let them cool. Made pretty solid bricks. Wouldn't blame you for the results if they go bad, though, while you'd get the credit for giving me the idea if it works out!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I factor in some extra customer service time into my queen and nuc prices right up front.

My opinions are to charge less and be grouchy when customers take up too much of my time with questions?

Charging a fair price for my bees AND my time works well for them and me. If I doled my nucs off the back of a truck..wham bam.and down the road I go...they would be less. But that's not what I do here.

If you looked farther down my facebook page, you'll see I have listed *other bee suppliers* in my area. Folks can shop around compare prices and product and have a choice. I flat out tell them they can buy bees cheaper that are brought up from California. They still come to me.

Must be that tryptophan I dabbed behind my ears.

Heres one of those comparison suppliers:
http://www.beethinking.com/collections/bees/products/package-bee-pre-order


My $200.00 five frame Washington Raised and Bred overwintered nucs from a VSH Genetic background seem reasonable to me and apparently to my customers. That's why I spent the big bucks on Glenn II Breeder queens when I started. To produce a different and hopefully superior product than what was commonly available.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> Again, my point is: No matter what you say or how clear you try to make it, there will be some who misunderstand. How to overcome this? I'm not really sure.


I completely agree with you. I tell all the people who buy my nucs that they need to treat for mites [even though I use VSH queens]. When they call me the next year because they lost them over the winter, my first question is "What did you treat with?' Almost every one reports they didn't treat. I say, "oh well, live and learn"


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

mtndewluvr said:


> ...or come up with a "Beekeepers 101" test that they have to pass before purchasing one of your nucs.


Do you spend a few more $$ to raise a young horse and train him right from the start... or buy an older broke horse that has issues and bad habits to overcome?

Funny how MY mind works. I think totally differently about your comment. 

If experienced beekeepers are buying bees, they MAY have some management issues to overcome. LOL... If they just wanted to change the genetics in their stock, they would be buying queens, not nucs.

New beekeepers are a blank slate. All the new beekeepers _are _currently taking lessons though. 

Getting back to overcoming those pre conceived notions.

I could be wrong, but really don't see a big advantage to being extremely selective as to who gets my nucs. 

Beekeeping 101 doesn't really even begin to give new folks what they need to know, to successfully, sustainably keep bees. It IS a start though. 

Hands on, with _some_ knowledgeable guidance is really what they need.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

That tryptophan is powerful stuff! 

The pancake stack looks appealing, but I'm puzzling over what the little _green _bits are ...


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

If I remember the recipe right, they were green onion, bacon and corn fritter pancakes with lots of butter and REAL Maple syrup.


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## Waggle (Mar 7, 2013)

Lauri said:


> What, they don't look like this?


Lauri that is exactly what your sugar block recipe looked like after I changed a few minor ingredients and cooked it in my autoclave. My only complaint is that I had to use a deep on top of my hive to feed it to my bees, By the way, they loved it.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Yum! My stomach just growled! Would you mind sharing that recipe?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Do the protein recipe too- spring and fall ..Big globs.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

TalonRedding said:


> Yum! My stomach just growled! Would you mind sharing that recipe?


I saw it on facebook. I'll look and see if I can find the actual recipe.
Probably just whole grain oatmeal pancakes with the goodies mixed in. I saved the photo and not the recipe so it must be just as it looks.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I appreciate the feedback. I am not worried about putting customers off. However, it is an interesting point. I wouldn't want someone to drive out and then have to change their mind; It may be better to offer the disclaimer in the advertising and allow them to find alternatives if they didn't like it.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

From discalimers to pancakes. That's the way we roll here on Beesource


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

My feeling on discalimers is that all you need is to tell how the nucs were made, where the queen came from and how many chemical treatments the parent hive has had if any at all. If it is possible it would be nice to show the queen to the potential customer. What the customer does and doesn't know is their responsibility.

If you go to a lumber yard and buy a stick of molding and you cut it wrong does the lumber yard make it good? Is it a requirement of the lumber yard to teach you how to cut molding?


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## Snookie (Dec 13, 2013)

Lauri said:


> Do the protein recipe too- spring and fall ..Big globs.


Wow is dat left over Sweet Potato Crunch?

GREAT IDEA:}


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Brian, a good point. It isn't my responsibility after they have been picked up, but I want to get my customers - specifically the newbies to think about how they want to keep their bees alive. 
Beekeepers who have been at it for a few years understand their choices, but I think when starting beekeeping there is a blissful naivety that comes with the hive tool. So, arriving at my yard, seeing that my bees are alive, hearing that I don't use miticides, there will be some who don't understand or gloss over the work involved to keep that going. They will think that "The secret is in the source". It is not, it is in the mite control methods. It is choosing between methods and learning all you can about your chosen method.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Acebird said:


> My feeling on discalimers is that all you need is to tell how the nucs were made, where the queen came from and how many chemical treatments the parent hive has had if any at all.


And that is what works well for me. But by the time nucs are ready to be sold that is already done. My facebook page you see at the bottom on all my posts with my name, is ONLY for Bees, agriculture and self sufficiency. All year long I post Photos, seasonal/local management, mite control, experiments, queen rearing, comments, etc. Folks see exactly how I work the bees and all the particulars about them. By the time they buy something from me, they already feel they know me and have confidence in my program. It works really well. Helps them learn and promotes my products and ideas. 

It does this all at everyone's convenience, in their own home, without wasting time. I can make one post and help 1500+ people at a time. 

The thing about facebook is it allows interaction. That interaction generates enthusiasm. A web page will not.
But facebook posts soon become outdated and too far below current posts to be useful. A web page can be controlled to post specific topics at specific places without such movement. A person really needs both to take advantage of each method of promotion.

After the sales of nucs this spring, I will continue to post management options for my customers (And future customers) to read. Good _*current seasonal reminders *_for the new and old beekeepers alike. I show them what I do, and it it up the them to choose what methods they are comfortable with, depending on what their goals are.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Almost makes me want to Log In to Facebook.

Nah, yer not getting me back to that addiction that easily Facebook.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

An interesting idea, but I'm not into facebook, but a website with a link to youtube. I could see that in my future.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I suppose all these ideas are great for disclosure, but, I have not had any problems ( in the past 15 years) simply telling purchasers what they are buying, and a brief idea of what to do with them. If they do have a problem, simply work with them, replace them, and you have a satisfied customer who will do you far more good than the cost of a replacement nuc. Word of mouth, from a satisfied customer is advertisement you can not buy.

I guess some of you have had some "bad hombres", if you need a very elaborate disclaimer, I have just never had this.

cchoganjr


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri, that is wonderful but I see Facebook as a humongous time consumer and every bit of it requires reading. I read all your ideas right here on Beesource and I don't have to get bombarded with all the other topics that don't involve bees. Now I can't bad mouth Facebook too much because my daughter is on her way to becoming a fortune 500 company using Facebook that started as a whim.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Ahhh... Just like virgin queens and capped queen cells, facebook is an overlooked, cost saving resource. 

I believe people have the idea facebook is just about gossip, sniveling and baby photos.

It is what you make it. And it gets viewed by a lot of people.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Yeah, all the _sniveling _ happens at Beesource!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> And it gets viewed by a lot of people.


Correct me if I am wrong it get viewed by people that sign up. And you only get to see a persons facebook page if they friend you. Unless you go public.


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

nuc no warranty $150.
nuc 1 year warranty $300 and so on 
nuc life time warranty $2,500.00
we got a warranty program to suit your needs limited to replacement of original purchase only.
i had to start doing this years ago when i was breeding labrador retrievers some people started expecting life time warrantys so thats what i told them. i usually didn't sell them a pup. oh well


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> If they do have a problem, simply work with them, replace them, and you have a satisfied customer who will do you far more good than the cost of a replacement nuc. Word of mouth, from a satisfied customer is advertisement you can not buy.


Cleo,
I really like your approach, particularly for a smaller hands on type operation. For new beekeepers entering brand new territory there is tremendous value in having a bit of personal instruction and professional advice offered with the nuc, not to mention the assurance that comes with a guarantee that you are getting what you pay for. 

This model might not work for everyone but I think it makes good business sense. "Word of mouth" is very powerful, one way or the other.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mike.. You are right, my approach likely will not work for everyone, especially those who sell thousands of nucs each year. But, by the same token, when you are putting out thousands, it is likely that some nucs will be better than others.

Sometimes highly restrictive disclaimers can actually lead to more dissatisfied customers. The customers expect everything to be perfect, and wants to hold the supplier liable if they are not. With highly restrictive disclaimers or warranties, it sorta implies that the producer is giving you a perfect nuc, and, if anything goes wrong, it is the purchaser's fault. Then if it isn't perfect, the purchaser has little or no recourse for satisfaction, he begins to bad mouth the producer. That same mouth, puts out bad advertisement.

Reputation for customer satisfaction, is one thing you cannot buy. It has to be earned.

I guess what I am saying is, do whatever works for you.

cchoganjr


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I offer unlimited email contact from my nuc buyers with free [I tell them that's all it's worth since it's free]. gives me time to answer. Some abuse it, some really need some guidance and most you never hear from. I've sold over 450 nucs in the last couple of years and only had to replace one that was queenless.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

I can see how some customers may be turned off by a waiver, but in the end I know the quality of the nucs they are receiving are really good to great. So, once we are over the formalities of the sell, I know they will be pleased with the contents of the nucleus colony. Thats when the word of mouth, honesty, customer service (I have answered many calls and emails from nuc buyers), etc. come in to me. The continued survival of the nuc is just out of my hands once the bees are out of my hands, and that is my purpose of the disclaimer. As I stated in an previous thread, it is one I modified when I bought a nuc several years back. Feel free to let it live on in your operation.  Sorry had to cut and paste it. 

Release, Waiver of Liability, Assumption of Risk, and Indemnity Agreement for FIELDS OF NATURAL HONEY LLC

BUYER HEREBY WAIVES AND RELEASES, indemnifies, hold harmless and forever discharges Fields of Natural Honey LLC and its agents, employees, officers, directors, affiliates, successors and assigns, of and from any and all claims, demands, debts, contracts, expenses, cause of action, lawsuits, damages and liabilities, of every kind and nature, whether known or unknown, in law or equity, that BUYER ever had or may have, arising from or in any way related to BUYER’S purchase of bees, hives, colonies or other agricultural products provided that this waiver of liability does not apply to any acts of gross negligence, or intentional, willful or wanton misconduct.

Fields of Natural Honey strive to provide high quality treatment free nucleus (“nuc”) colonies; there are many factors that, after BUYER takes possession of said colony, are beyond the control of Fields of Natural Honey LLC. At time of purchase and transfer of colony, we guarantee that the nuc sold will be a functioning colony with a new laying queen chosen for her survival, hygience, temperament, and egg laying traits. However, once BUYER takes possession, we specifically disclaim any further responsibility for the continuing quality or functionality of said colony. Continuing viability, care, control, custody, maintenance, supervision, etc. are the sole and exclusive responsibility of BUYER upon receipt of said colony.

Buyer further acknowledges that Fields of Natural Honey LLC are in the bee business and not the education business. In other words, it is BUYER’S responsibility to educate themselves about bees and the proper care and maintenance of bees before purchase and receipt of colony from Fields of Natural Honey LLC.

If BUYER has any reservations about taking receipt of colony from Fields of Natural Honey LLC, BUYER must make those reservations known before taking possession of said colony. If BUYER wishes not to proceed with taking possession of said colony, a full refund of the purchase price will be made provided it is asked for BEFORE BUYER takes possession of said colony. Once BUYER takes possession of said colony, the colony and its bees are the sole and exclusive responsibility, in all aspects and dimensions, of BUYER and not Fields of Natural Honey LLC. 

______________ ________________________ ____________________ Date Printed Name of BUYER Signature of BUYER


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Sorry, but to me, such a long waiver worrying about stuff, most of which is never going to happen, makes the seller look unprofessional. It would be a turn off to me, as a customer. 

If the seller's reputation was really really good, I'd probably look past having to sign such a waiver. But, for me, I doubt anyone can produce a nuc that is so good I would sign such a document. I would much rather buy a decent nuc where the beekeeper hands me the nuc, shakes my hand and says "good luck and call me if you have any questions."

Put another way, the long tortuous waiver says to the buyer that he/she is an idiot. Once in awhile, the seller will be correct - the buyer is an idiot - but the seller will alienate a lot of good customers along the way.

Maybe I would feel differently if I was the seller and was selling to 100's of customers and had to deal with the occasional idiot.

Just my opinion from a customer's perspective.


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## Waggle (Mar 7, 2013)

When I see a waiver like that it makes me think that I need an attorney to proof read it for me or I may be signing over my first born with out knowing it. No thanks, I'll buy my nucs elsewhere.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Simplest is best. If one makes a disclaimer at all.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Waggle said:


> When I see a waiver like that it makes me think that I need an attorney to proof read it for me or I may be signing over my first born with out knowing it. No thanks, I'll buy my nucs elsewhere.


Ahhh, but don't get caught up in the language or an attorney, the inside of the nuc will speak for itself. Not to mention, if I were to ever by another nuc, I would want to know the beekeeper and their management techniques, so in essence maybe it is not necessary. :scratch:However, from a business standpoint, it makes good sense to me. To me, It's like doing a cutout on a hand shake and verbal language, and when it's done,, the customer says I did not "give them/ do what they agreed to/thought they were getting done. I"ll take the disclaimer/signed contract, everyday! And/Any insurance is a bonus , I guess I want to feel protected:lpf:


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## Moots (Nov 26, 2012)

Adrian,
The only experience I have with buying Nucs is with the two I bought last January to get started as a Beek. While I understand what you are trying to do, personally to me, I would find it a bit off putting. To me it almost sounds like you are guaranteeing that the bees will die and that they won't be happy and your priority is to absolve yourself of responsibility. Again...I know that isn't your intention, but to me it has that litigious tone.

Not sure of what kind of number you will be selling and if this approach is practical, but it's hard for me to imagine a better experience than I had buying my two Nucs. 

The gentleman and I set up a time to meet, with me there, he opened the Nuc, showed me the number of bees, showed me each frame and what was on it as he transferred it to my box, took time to find and show me the queen, as well as offering some general pointers. My boxes were left in that location to gather up all the foragers, after dark I went back by and he had them closed up and ready for transport. At that time, he advised that if I had any questions, to feel free to give him a call.

No paperwork involved and I don't think I could have asked for a better experience.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Another approach might be to put together a single page informational handout - "Instructions" on how to Properly Care for Your Nuc. Briefly cover suggestions on feeding, expansion, mites, treatments, etc. Within these "instructions" you could insert language which implies no guarantee. 

This may be perceived as a bit less suspicious on the purchasers end, but still covers your liability. A helpful guide with a merged disclaimer.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> At time of purchase and transfer of colony, we guarantee that the nuc sold will be a functioning colony with a new laying queen chosen for her survival, hygience, temperament, and egg laying traits. However, once BUYER takes possession, we specifically disclaim any further responsibility for the continuing quality or functionality of said colony. Continuing viability, care, control, custody, maintenance, supervision, etc. are the sole and exclusive responsibility of BUYER upon receipt of said colony.


To me this is double talk. How can you guarantee something and then not guarantee it? It either is or it isn't. Is this for someone buying one or two nucs or a thousand nucs? If it is for one or two nucs you are wasting paper.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Brian,
Once you take possession of something how can I guarantee that you will be successful w/ it? As long as that nuc is in my possession I can guarantee that it is what I say it is. Once the factor of another owner is added to the equation all bets are off. That doesn't mean it isn't still what I sold you, but whether it continues being so, such as queenright, is not guaranteeable. See the difference?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

A _guarantee _that does not offer any remedy for _non-performance_ is not much of a guarantee. I am well aware that bees are not tools, but if a tool seller offered a guarantee that a tool was guaranteed to have no manufacturing defects, but that guarantee ended when you walked out of the store - well - that is a pretty useless guarantee.

From my perspective, a long disclaimer (that is not an actual guarantee with a remedy and time period) make me somewhat _wary _about what might be going on. In my mind, it make me wonder what kind of prior issues led to the development of the said disclaimer.

For example, while I do buy some things at Harbor Freight, I always consider their 3 month warranty as an exchange policy. If the purchase is for an expensive HF item, I evaluate the alternatives for that item by adding in the cost of HF's extended warrantee. If the store only guarantees their items for 90 days it shows a lack of confidence that they are selling a quality product. If electrical items at HF had a zero day "guarantee", I would never buy anything with a motor at HF.

The package bees I bought from Arnolds in Knoxville came with nothing beyond what is on their website, and a brief email exchange where Tess Arnold confirmed that the bees he was selling were raised by him in NE Tennessee. No paper was exchanged other than the checks (deposit & final payment) I gave him.

.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What sort of guarantee do you think someone selling nucs should make?

I don't sell a lot of nucs. When I do I have them here at home and buyers come here to get them from me when the nuc can be transfered into their equipment. During that transfer they can see what they are getting. Once they take possession what obligation do I have? Am I supposed to guarantee that they will make a crop of honey? That for a certain period of time, not matter what the buyer does to their nuc, their queen will perform as they expect?

What am I obligated to?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

A guarantee implies after the sale not before. Before is assurance. You can assure that the nuc is of a certain quality but that also implies documentation to prove the assurance. Written protocols and filled out forms signed and dated to assure the customer on what they are getting. Protocols would have to be validated to prove that if the procedures are followed you can expect result "A". Take for instance buying and supplying a queen for the nuc. The queen supplier would also have to have a protocol (validated or course) to assure that the queen is of certain quality. Tracability is a must. None of this will happen in the beekeeping world.

So Mark it all boils down to faith in who you are buying from. If people buy nucs from you and they have problems they will lose faith. If enough people lose faith you won't be doing it much longer. If you do provide a guarantee (after the sale) then people will not lose faith in you. I understand it could be their fault. Do you believe half the items returned to Walmart is Walmart's fault?

Forget the disclaimers and all the useless paperwork. It doesn't mean a thing in the beekeeping world.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What sort of guarantee do you think someone selling nucs should make?


It would greatly depend on if you were selling lots or a few to either the general public or just a few friends.

If you offer a guarantee then you have to work that cost into your operation. If it cost you more than what you would potentially gain in sales then it wouldn't be wise to do it. In your case Mark, if your nuc customers got ticked off at you and bad mouthed you it would probably affect your local honey sales in the long run. I am sure you understand that the way you keep your customers is to stay in touch with them. Only you can determine if a customer is worth keeping in touch with. That might even mean walking away from a sale to avoid the bad press that you know will come about. As a Walmart, you can't do that. As Mark Berninghausen you certainly can.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Paperwork? Forgetaboutit.

Here's what I have. Look them over. Pick out the one you like. I make no guarantees concerning what you can do w/ it. But, when you pick it out and you put it in your equipment here at my place it will be queen right, it will have brood and adult bees, it will have honey and pollen, it will be ready to grow just like I would use in my hives.

What more can I say? Most of the folks who have bought nucs under those circumstances have been satisfied, I assume since I have not heard otherwise. One person called me two months after purchase complaining that I had sold him nucs w/out queens. As if I would intentionally do something like that.

What sort of guarantee does one get when buying queens or packages thru the mail, other than a copy of a Health Certificate from the State of origin stating that the colonies from whence those packages or queens came from were inspected by a State Official and found free of disease? Is there any more than that?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What more can I say?


Nothing. That can work just fine. The buyer is going on faith. Just like I said.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Acebird said:


> A guarantee implies after the sale not before. Before is assurance.
> 
> it all boils down to faith in who you are buying from. If people buy nucs from you and they have problems they will lose faith. If enough people lose faith you won't be doing it much longer. If you do provide a guarantee (after the sale) then people will not lose faith in you. I understand it could be their fault.
> 
> Forget the disclaimers and all the useless paperwork. It doesn't mean a thing in the beekeeping world.


Then I assure at the time of sale, no way I would guarantee anything after the bees leave the apiary, they are now subject to someone managing them other than myself, and all the techniques/management they may, or may not have. For instance, why did you buy treatment free bees to ask me about a treatment for the bees? Maybe it is faith, maybe it's customer service, maybe it's what's inside the nuc that really counts (my vote), maybe it doesn't mean anything in the beekeeping world, but when someone is trying to get something from me for free (suing/harassing/showing up at the apiary unannounced, etc.) from no fault of my own. Houston we have a problem! I would like to think in the judicial world, I have a little protection and there is always a/the target, sometimes with a red dot if you are not careful


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You think a disclaimer gives you some protection in our judicial world? Don't mention the word "assure" because that means you have documentation to prove it. Good luck with that one.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> . . . maybe it's what's inside the nuc that really counts (my vote) . . .


I noticed this point mentioned more than once. I am just down the road from you, and have purchased nucs from more than one local supplier. Most of these nucs have done well, and a few have built up to produce 4 medium supers of honey in their first year, which was a drought year, to boot. I would have expected at least 6 supers from these nucs in a normal year. How much better will your nucs be? 

I have never purchased a nuc from you, and do not know what your nucs are like. However, unless your nucs perform substantially better than the above mentioned nucs, people are not going to beat a trail to your door regardless of the hoops they must jump through. In other words, you have some very stiff local competition from highly skilled beeks and you should not assume that you are going to simply "blow everyone away" with your product.

My apiariy is large enough that I am pretty much done buying nucs. Once you get established and have built a good reputation in the local community (which I have no doubt that you will successfully do), I will probably buy a couple of your nucs to broaden the genetics in my apiary. I look forward to that time.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Acebird said:


> You think a disclaimer gives you some protection in our judicial world? Don't mention the word "assure" because that means you have documentation to prove it. Good luck with that one.


Thanks Ace, assure was your idea, mine was ,,,At time of purchase and transfer of colony, we guarantee that the nuc sold will be a functioning colony.... I have an idea! You work this sentence out, and get back to me on what you would have it say, please


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

shinbone said:


> I noticed this point mentioned more than once. I am just down the road from you, and have purchased nucs from more than one local supplier. Most of these nucs have done well, and a few have built up to produce 4 medium supers of honey in their first year, which was a drought year, to boot. I would have expected at least 6 supers from these nucs in a normal year. How much better will your nucs be?
> 
> I have never purchased a nuc from you, and do not know what your nucs are like. However, unless your nucs perform substantially better than the above mentioned nucs, people are not going to beat a trail to your door regardless of the hoops they must jump through. In other words, you have some very stiff local competition from highly skilled beeks and you should not assume that you are going to simply "blow everyone away" with your product.
> 
> My apiariy is large enough that I am pretty much done buying nucs. Once you get established and have built a good reputation in the local community (which I have no doubt that you will successfully do), I will probably buy a couple of your nucs to broaden the genetics in my apiary. I look forward to that time.


Thats just it, I would not make any claim how the nuc will perform once it is into the customer's hand, way to many variables. For instance, if a customer did not feed the nucleus colony, especially in a drought, do you think they would produce 4 medium supers of honey, or even be alive? Or if the queen is rolled when customer transfers, and/or the emergency virgin cell gets squashed, or she never gets back from mating. Don't get me wrong I do help customers through these things, but don't blame me or bad mouth FONH. I do not assume I will "blow everyone away",nor am I trying. In fact, I really enjoy making nucleus colonies and would be happy to keep them all, ok most of them. I still would like to increase my own hive numbers, and continue to breed and keep my best. However, income is a bonus, but not at the rate of selling sub par products. I am ok with no knocks on my door, people are overrated .I too look forward to that time.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I have had trouble in the past from people just wanting to chat.....and I mean chat for _ever _if you let them. *
I am very busy and had to learn to handle that situation. I made it clear my schedule was 'by appointment only' and thanked folks in advance for respecting our privacy. It has worked very well, although I think some are a little afraid of me. I set that time aside for customer service and am not stresses feeling like I need to get back to work. I don't want to get caught with curlers in my hair or distracted from the task at hand..There are many times I have a small window of opportunity to work a few hives in between rain squalls. I don't want to be interrupted and lose that chance to get much needed swarm control done or queen cells harvested in early spring.

If I leave my front gate open, people WILL stop in. Sometimes it is OK, sometimes it is not. I made this 24" x 30" large sign for the times it is not, but need the gate open for deliveries or other expected appointments. I stick this out by the gate. It doesn't work well though. They still come right in, LOL but are scared to death  *There eyes are darting around and they start out by saying..."I know I'm trespassing, but... What is this place? " Makes me laugh a little.*
After many years of not being around the public, I am trying to learn to be both hospitable and tolerant. The more I get to know these people, the better I am at being interested in what they have to say. I am actually enjoying there visits now. But it took me a while.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Maybe you should scatter some more of those archery _bullseye_ targets around your property ... perhaps one on the front door?  :lookout:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

The neighbors can't stand it. We are always doing something, building something they are curious about. On a warm spring day if I have the gate open they are in like flies on...well, you know. They want to know _What the heck_ we have going on now.

Ya, I'll put a Big Foot out there. GUARANTEED to both shock them AND draw them in like flies...










This is the 101 yard archery target at the National Safari, Redding Calif..


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