# It's Too late with cells



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi, All!

I thought it was late Autumn on our first rainy day of the season caused by the El Nino effects.
But my bees are still laying nice size winter broods. Some hive even make their own qcs this late.
I just don't get it. Are they thinking about the Spring already. So I made some splits to see if they
can get a mated queen this late. Yes, testing my limit, I know. One should hatch by this Sat., the other
by Wed or Thurs the latest. Do you think it is too late now?


Broods and cells:


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

You have no queen in THAT queen cell, it is open from the side..How about the other ones?


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Do u see any drones?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Bees of SC said:


> You have no queen in THAT queen cell, it is open from the side..How about the other ones?



This is what I was thinking as well.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Oh, don't let this distorted cell fool you.
You see, in the middle toward the tip of the cell is a piece of 
thin wax standing almost like a S shape. This piece of small wax
was sticking to the other side of the adjacent frame when I removed the current frame to
inspect the cell. I use small cell and tighter shaved end bars to make the cluster tighter together in the cold rainy winter days here.
So with the little gap that they had they made this piece of small thin wax on the cell and the other frame.
If I shave off this wax then the cell will look normal as can be. Don't worry everything is in tact, Rj and larva inside.
Every cell that I choose to keep I will inspect it before capping to make sure there is a larva inside. Don't want to have an empty
cell inside again.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Okey doke if you say so. Looks to me like a destroyed QC. She will be Mighty skinny. maybe her head will be like a miniature head on a normal body?:scratch:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

No, a small head with a big body queen is much like 
the Cordovan or Russian queens. They are almost the same
head size after many generation of inbreeding. As soon as you
mutted them then the queen's head is much larger. Get a pure Cordovan queen and
do your own queen experiment to compare the daughter head with the mom's head to see
for yourself. Anyways, at the tip of the developing cell there is a small gap that the worker bees leave for
the larva to have a pocket of air space. Maybe a 1/4" or so of such a gap. Then the larva on the
RJ further up. After that it is all RJ to the bottom of the cell base on the frame. Because I timed it down to
do my inspection to the time that the cell got capped, it is still too early to injure the small larva. If the bees think she
is no good then they will torn down the cell. Will let you know when she hatch out or not.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Update:

Fast forward! Two weeks has passed already. And a new
queen had hatched. When the cell was capped it was long and full of RJ inside. I was a bit surprised to
see her hatching out so early. Look into the cell with a small LED flashlight to find almost a quarter inch of RJ remaining on the bottom.
She's still a virgin that hatched out almost 2 days ago I think.
I just check this nuc hive tonight. She look like a Minnesota hygienic queen because that
genetics exist in our apiary. But look like an 80% carnis/20% Italians mutt that we have here also.
She's not too runny with a strong disposition and dominated over the small 5 frames nuc easily. I will also
give them 1:1 to stimulate the virgin to take her mating flight earlier than normal. If she is a smart queen then
she should go out sooner before the first frost hit. At this late in the year, do you think she might get mated and come back to lay?


Strong mutt virgin queen:


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Good luck with it, it's in the 60's already...


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Inseminate her. No matter if she starts laying, she will probably do it in spring.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Too bad I don't have the artificial means to make her a mated queen.
Still have high hopes though that she will get mated. I've read that
the carnis can forage in cooler weather. So in the 60s should not stop the
queen from doing her thing. It seems like the cut off date for a mated queen here is in mid-September and before Halloween.
After that it is just too cold. Since it is just a little bee experiment to see how late it can go, I will do better next year. 
If she gets mated that is an extra queen added to my collection. Already selected 2 breeder queens to continue my little bee experiment in the early Spring time.
I have read that after one month if she is not yet mated then she will turn into a drone layer queen. So I don't think she can wait another 3-5 months in a mild winter area. 
Anyways, a small nuc hive will need a mated queen to replenish the bees through out the cold rainy winter months.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

beepro - Good luck. We are bumping the high 50s at night here and I have lots of drones around. Darn things are moving out the the hives and into the nucs. And the nucs are fine with that for now. 

With small guys like us, we can experiment easily due to the size of the operations. Learn lots about what works and doesn't work. A nuc here and there is no major loss. I would go for it, just make sure they have resources and plenty of bees, those both where my errors with my experiments. But I learned in certain conditions I can mates queens at first of October, next year will be try again with well stocked nucs to see if they make the winter. 

Once again good luck and let us know how it works out.


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

beepro, good luck to you. It may very well not be too late. I live in a location which ought to have a similar climate to yours. As I was doing a hive inspection about two weeks ago, I found two queens blithely wandering about in one and the same hive; and as I conveniently had on hand a nucleus colony which had lately lost its queen, I simply couldn't resist. I transferred one of the queens to the nucleus colony and let lie for a number of days, simply to see what would happen. The day before yesterday I found that both queens were laying. I wish you the same happy result.

Incidentally, regarding a queen becoming a drone layer after a month - this is likely true, but I have found it must be taken advisedly. One of the queens I bred this summer did not start laying until day 35. I believe she was mated in a timely manner, but her hive was too poor to stimulate her to begin laying. She commenced immediately when I added in a frame of open brood. This just to say - marshmasterpat's advice is spot on about making sure the nucleus colonies have sufficient resources and bees, and I imagine that this is more important at this late hour than ever.

Once again, best of luck to you, beepro.

John


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> beepro, good luck to you. It may very well not be too late. I live in a location which ought to have a similar climate to yours. As I was doing a hive inspection about two weeks ago, I found two queens blithely wandering about in one and the same hive; and as I conveniently had on hand a nucleus colony which had lately lost its queen, I simply couldn't resist. I transferred one of the queens to the nucleus colony and let lie for a number of days, simply to see what would happen. The day before yesterday I found that both queens were laying. I wish you the same happy result.
> 
> Incidentally, regarding a queen becomming a drone layer after a month - this is likely true, but I have found it must be taken advisedly. One of the queens I bred this summer did not start laying until day 35. I believe she was mated in a timely manner, but her hive was too poor to stimulate her to begin laying. She commenced immediately when I added in a frame of open brood. This just to say - marshmasterpat's advice is spot on about making sure the nucleus colonies have sufficient resources and bees, and I imagine that this is more important at this late hour than ever.
> 
> ...


Same here. Good luck man. There is always hope. Honeybees are amazing.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks all for the positive supports and feeback.
This is a beautiful queen coming from an almost 2"
long cell. See the pic above. The cut at the tip of the cell is almost a perfect edge all around when she come out. 
I would like to save her if possible. Good news to hear about the drones
going into the nucs instead of the big hives where they are going to be kicked
out later on. That means this virgin queen still has a chance to be mated. Last night was a bit frosty on the roofs but day time high in the 60s on a sunny day. 
There are always drones available. Some are late drones that are still in development now as I have some in my nuc hive in larvae form now. Those they will keep over the winter I guess.
Yes, this nuc is fully stock up with nurse bees both foragers and capped broods too. In my little bee experiment over the years I have found a very simple way to raise some big
queens from. Hoping to repeat this same experiment in the Spring time to get some bigger queens too.
I just gave them a jar of light syrup to stimulate the queen to fly earlier. She should be able to sense that this is the late Autumn now and be in a hurry to get herself mated soon. I also gave them patty subs. to fatten up the winter bees to enable them to live longer through out our cold winter months.
With luck she should be a laying queen sooner than later.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Best of Luck on getting her well mated Beepro. G


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update:

Hi, All! Just one week after the first carnis mutt queen hatched, today I found
another Italians virgin roaming among the bees on the other side of the same divided nuc hive. She is from an almost 1.5" capped cell full of RJ.
Very well fed and healthy looking lighter color queen. She is in a fairly strong nuc hive that has been very well taken care of. 
Well, except a few remaining mites with them all winter long. Her grandma is from a survivor hive and advertised as mite resistant. 
The temp. is consistent in the low 60s in the day time and raining too.
Not sure what will turn out for these 2 late virgin queens. I wonder if a drone layer queen can be
II to produce some worker eggs?


Newly hatched Italians queen:


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

low 60s and rain....... :lookout: hope you don't miss your window. Luck. G


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, at least I know that at the end of September is a bit late for
the last queen made. So the cut off date is really Sept. 1st of every
year here. Anything after Halloween when the weather turn cold in the
60s will not work for a virgin to fly. She needs at least 69F to go on
her mating flights. So what to do now other than to make some queen juice out
of them. Will wait until the end of this month to decide on what to do next. 
Maybe I'll keep the drone laying queens to make some new drones in the early Spring time.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I know nothing of the viability of drone layers. Looks like if they were a good source for drone saturation they would be a commodity. i know not your situation, but, after the window was closed and locked, I believe I would find a better use for the bees left. G


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't know about the drone layer situation either. I would say the DCA is full of 
drones not from my own hives unless I send some there in the Spring time. Already have a drone mother
hive selected for the coming season. 
Since I use a divider foam board for the nuc hives I simply lift the board out and catch a 
laying queen for them. A smart beekeeper always have some spare queens laying around
just in case. The secret is in the winter nucs!


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Aren´t there anyone in the area who can inseminate? Most beekeepers buy II services here in Finland. 

I´m not sure if the drone layers drones are any good in spring, usually the hive is so week I wonder if the drones are getting properly fed, small they are anyway. Sperm they have but competition in the air is a matter of wingpower...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I wish there is an insemination service nearby to use.
Unfortunately they only keep the fresh sperms to
use in the summer time. Right now is the winter time
so I don't think that service is available now.
The temp. so far is in the 30s so mating flight is off I 
guess. I plan to keep the good drone genetics by giving the
drone eggs frame to the Spring expanding hive. There are the
green plastic drone frame that we can buy here. Talk about
drone saturation this is the method to go. At least the drones are
good for varroa trapping instead of the oav treatments. The queen 
will continue to lay the drone eggs indefinitely until she gave up someday.
I wonder if the workers behaved differently in favor of the mated laying queen than the drone laying not mated queen?


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