# Starting Treatment Free and non-TF bees in the same location.



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

I'm attending my local county beekeepers association beekeeping classes and I purchased 2 packages of bees from the association to be picked up 4/1/17. They're coming from Rossman in Ga. 
I assume the Rossman bees are not TF.
I'm also hoping to get a nuc or two from an Alabamal TF beekeeper.

The main question is 1 : will it be detrimental to either the TF and non-TF bees to have them next to each other?

Although my goal is to be foundation-less. 
I plan to start the two non-TF packages on foundation to give them something to get started on and then eventually replace the foundation frames.

Question 2 : can I use small cell foundation on package bees from (probably) larger cell origins? 

Another goal is to use only medium woodenware. I'm told the nuc will come with 5 deep frames. I have 2 deeps on hand now so not a problem. 

Question 3 : What's the best way to eventually convert them to medium?

thanks Ross


----------



## erikebrown (Oct 27, 2014)

R_V said:


> The main question is 1 : will it be detrimental to either the TF and non-TF bees to have them next to each other?
> 
> Question 2 : can I use small cell foundation on package bees from (probably) larger cell origins?
> 
> ...


1. You can mix and match TF and non-TF in one yard. However, you will likely get some crossover of both mites and treatments. So you may find some difficulties in being pure TF. You might consider having screen bottom boards or use sugar shakes to check the mite levels once a month or so just to see the hive status.

2. I'm not sure on this one. Though if your plan is to go foundationless, the bees will figure it out. Why not start with standard foundation and then let the bees regress as you go along.

3. I have this same issue, and am trying to transition out this year. Last year I moved all my hives to mediums except for 1 hive with the deep bodies. This year I plan to put some Deep Nuc's together with leftover comb and sell them off, then sell each deep hive body as a complete hive (with bottom and top). You can certainly abandon the comb and boxes, I just didn't want to do that so am trying to slowly move it out.

Erik


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

R_V said:


> The main question is 1 : will it be detrimental to either the TF and non-TF bees to have them next to each other?
> 
> I plan to start the two non-TF packages on foundation to give them something to get started on and then eventually replace the foundation frames.
> 
> Question 2 : can I use small cell foundation on package bees from (probably) larger cell origins?


1- Be careful of how the mite situation of this bees is. 
The friend I work with has tf sc bees and treated big cell bees in one beeyard for 3 years now, tf is "resistant" stock. He treats with extra care, meaning, he monitors mites and treats the big cells so no reinfestation from the bc and no reinfestation back to the sc. he uses the big cells for honey and feeds the sc with this. He is very experienced.
Losses the same, 30% + - both kinds.
Personally I would not do this. I would separate the two kinds, use two bee yards. 

2- I know of 5 beekeepers who tried this in Germany, it worked not. They regressed with plastic frames or used drawn small cell comb for the first brood cycles.
I would start with foundation less and try sc foundation after they build smaller in broodnest area.
There are some colonies who never learn.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>The main question is 1 : will it be detrimental to either the TF and non-TF bees to have them next to each other?

IMO the treated stock would become a mite bomb that would burden the TF stock. And possibly contaminate your local gene pool. If your goal is TF than I would skip the packages and stick with TF. Replacing the queens with TF queens may help. If you're not going TF than just treat them all. 

>Question 2 : can I use small cell foundation on package bees from (probably) larger cell origins? 

Not really, they will need to be "regress to small cell" first. You can skip regressing them if you use small cell plastic frames.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

>Question 3 : What's the best way to eventually convert them to medium?

Put medium on top as the bees need more room, remove deeps as the get empty, bees move up over winter making it easy to remove empty deep below. Can also use a queen excluder to keep queen from laying in them.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

Thanks all.
I had expected to treat the non-TF bees. 
The main reason I was getting them was they are guaranteed to be available.
I'd prefer to start all TF if possible.


----------



## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

RV, you can make it work for sure. Just make sure to separate the yards. treat the packages as necessary to keep them alive, your TF nucs will have a good start. Next year make some queens off your TF bees and re-queen your packages with that stock. It will work.
Keep us in the loop as how it goes..


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Take a hard look at the number of treating beekeepers in your area. Your two treated packages will likely have little impact compared to the dozens of treated colonies in the Vestavia area. It might be a good plan to prepare to replace the queens in the packages with TF queens later in the year.

For regressing large cell bees onto small cell, I would start with the Mann Lake PF1xx frames because they are more amenable to getting the bees to draw the cells right. Give them to the bees either during a strong natural nectar flow or else feed heavily to get them drawn. I strongly prefer a natural flow. It is much easier to get small cell combs drawn in the brood box than in honey supers.

The best way to convert from one equipment size to another is to purchase frames and boxes of the desired size and put them on top of the colony. When they have been filled with honey, extract it, and then return the frames to the bees for the fall flow. Put an excluder between the top box with the queen confined in the medium. In 3 weeks, brood in the bottom box will have emerged and the bees can be shaken off the frames leaving only mediums. There are two risks with doing this. The fall flow may fail like last year which would require feeding for winter. Confining the queen in the upper box should include providing an upper entrance so any drones in the upper part of the hive have a way to fly out.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

Thanks for the info FP.
I would plan on replacing the package queens. 
I'm rethinking buying those treated package bees.
I am actively looking for AL sources for TF nucs/bees. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?333827-WTB-2017-TF-Bees-NUCs-in-Alabama 
no bites yet


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

I think I will get those package and re-queen them. 

Been building swam traps the past couple of weekend.

Still looking for and hoping to buy a couple of TF nucs. Hopefully it will work out.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

Well, I pickup my non-TF bee packages April Fools Day. 
Still no definitive TF bees yet.
I've been watching a line of bees traveling from either the creek or the neighbor's flowers then north across my back yard and I'm placing a swarm trap near the beeline path. Hopefully they'll notice it and I'll catch something.

As for re-queening, I'm thinking of eventually trying the Purdue mite biter/maulers from West Virginia / Pennsylvanian to add something completely different to the area. Thoughts?


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

set my one of my swarm traps out on my back deck today and bees were checking it out before I've even decided where to put it.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

same here r_v. set one out at the homeyard, and then took one over to the outyard, by the time i got back home there were a couple of dozen scouts scoping it out.

good luck with your trapping!


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

I haven't gotten around to hanging it in the tree as planned but it looks like several more bees are interested, not just the one or two at a time. 

I put a couple of waxed foundation frames in it, would they be robbing the wax? 
They seem to be spending some time inside.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

and it looks like a carpenter bee is not happy about it.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

R_V said:


> would they be robbing the wax?


perhaps, although it's about time for swarming to start down there so they could be scout bees looking for a potential new location.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

let's hope
.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

If they're not in by today, they'll be in by tomorrow. My guess. Looking good, R_V!


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

there seems to be some fighting at the entrance, normal?


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Some fighting is completely normal. I'm not certain, but I've heard it's the bees who've decided to make it their home defending against foreign scouts.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Your video has got me thinking I should put a couple of swarm traps out. I swore I wouldn't this year, but the swarm trap footage has got me fiending. Beware, once you start down this path, you're hopelessly addicted.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

lol


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

Nordak said:


> Some fighting is completely normal. I'm not certain, but I've heard it's the bees who've decided to make it their home defending against foreign scouts.


 maybe i should put out the other one I built...


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

By the look and sound of it, you should.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i would try to locate the second one in or around oak mountain state park if i could.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

I might could sneak one out there


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cool. the main swarming season usually lasts about a month or so.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

OK, it looks like they closed the deal and like my box. So... now what? lol.. 
The location of the trap vs the intended hives placement is about 25feet away. 
What's the best way to proceed? 
Move the trap tonight to the location on top or below a empty hive and remove the top or bottom? 
Just take them down there and dump them in a hive?


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

R_V said:


> OK, it looks like they closed the deal and like my box. So... now what? lol..
> The location of the trap vs the intended hives placement is about 25feet away.
> What's the best way to proceed?
> Move the trap tonight to the location on top or below a empty hive and remove the top or bottom?
> Just take them down there and dump them in a hive?


If there are frames in place, leave them there. As soon as you see pollen going in, typically that means they have enough drawn comb that the queen has started laying. This would be the time to take action. You can move them a few miles away and force them to reorient, then bring them back in about a week or lock them up with good ventilation and food for 72 hours and then transfer frames to the hive you intend to keep them in. The problem with dumping them in now is there is a decent chance they'll take off on you, and even if they did stay, all your foragers are going to return to the site of the bait hive. When you move them, make certain it's at night when all the bees will be inside the bait hive.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

congrats! are there frames in the trap? if not, is the trap designed to hold frames?


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

there are frames, however, 2 are new wax covered plastic foundation frames and two are foundationless frames.

so, in the course of a week I could probably move them 2 feet a day and have them where I want them.

The trap is Langstroth size, just taller @ 12".

I have some comb honey I could strap to a frame.

for a little entertainment


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

nordak is correct about too much disturbance might cause them to leave.

the most conservative approach would be to not disturb them in any way for 5 - 7 days, by which time the first eggs will be hatching and it's not likely the colony would leave the open brood. they could be transferred to the permanent box with the additional frames at that time.

after that the two feet a day thing or a week 3 miles away will be your better options. some would move the 25 feet and place branches at the entrance which in my personal experience works better some times than others.

i wouldn't disturb them to add the comb honey. there should be plenty of field forage available. placing a feeder might attract robbers, so don't worry about feeding them, swarms know what to do.

personally, i would consider gingerly moving them to the permanent spot a few hours after sunset tonight, being very careful not to shake or bump the box, and then go back on thursday and transfer them to the other box.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

oh, and you may already know this, but since you have foundationless frames in there you have to make sure the box is perfectly level left to right.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

sounds good. btw, there's a 20 foot altitude drop too.
and yes to the level question.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cool. looks like you are a beekeeper.


----------



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Forgot to add-congratulations!


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

I'd wait a week then move them 25 feet and rebox them in one fell swoop. I would not feed them unless they were lethargic, which would be rare in these circumstances.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

Thanks guys, I guess it's official. 

I'm going to opt on the conservative side and leave them where they are for about week, then move/rebox them. 
That will keep me on schedule for site prep and not have to finish a week early.


----------



## Reef Resiner (Jun 9, 2015)

It is a dark path.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

well... Those swarm bees were just swarm teasing me. Came home today, and no bees. looked inside, no sign a bee had ever been in there. :scratch:


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

no sweat r_v, it's happened to most of us, especially prior to having a frame of open brood from another hive in the apiary the placing of which is close to 100% sure to 'lock' the new swarm to the trap/hive.

they just found greener pastures before getting 'committed' to your box, don't take it personally.


----------



## Reef Resiner (Jun 9, 2015)

They like to tease. Stay strong and keep persistant in the spot in my opinion. This happens a lot.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Reef Resiner said:


> They like to tease. Stay strong and keep persistant in the spot in my opinion. This happens a lot.


i'll respectfully disagree with reef on this one. and let's remember the outcome to some degree vindicates odfrank's prediction, which of course was based on the fact that there had never been a colony nor were there any remnants of a colony in the trap...

the reason i would have moved them the first night is because i would fear all the commotion associated with being on the rear deck of a family household might not be enough 'seclusion' for a colony looking for a more discreet hive location.

those were smart bees r_v, the kind you hope end up in your traps.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

I should have listened to you and moved them right away.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

first 2 rules of beekeeping:

1. it depends
2. no guarantees


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

well, the package bees are hived. 
I hung the queen between a couple of foundation frames in the bottom medium.
A second medium above with a couple of foundation frames. A 1/2 inch inner cover type feeder board with holes for 4 jars and a Full and top to cover them.
FL=Foundation-Less Frame
f= Foundation Frame
Q=Queen

FL FL FL f FL f FL FL FL FL 
FL FL FL f f Q f f FL FL FL 

Should I move the queen cage up to the second box before they get too committed?


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

way to go r_v, and best of luck to you and your bees.

i'll have to let someone with package experience chime in. you may want to start a thread in beekeeping 101 about your experience, i'm betting there are many more folks starting with new packages for the first time this year.


----------



## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

thanks. will do..
one of them REALLY liked my wife. She wasn't happy..


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ruh roh george...


----------



## Peter Montague (Feb 23, 2016)

1: will it be detrimental to either the TF and non-TF bees to have them next to each other?

They can coexist but the TF bees will likely need to be extra hardy. I have a TF hive next to many treated hives.

2: can I use small cell foundation on package bees from (probably) larger cell origins?

It is definitly a good plan to not go foundationless in year 1 with packages, they have a lot of work to do and they will just build large cell. You can put them on s.c. foundation right away, it forces them to draw s.c., I have done it many times with good results. My understanding of regressing is that its a drawn out process over may generations, each starting from scratch building slightly smaller than the last untill they finally reach their natural state.

3: What's the best way to eventually convert them to medium?
Buy a queen excluder and when the brood nest is full size, mid-summer, put the deep box over the queen excluder wit the brood nest bellow so she can't lay in the deep. The larva will hatch out, the cells are filled with honey and you can extract it or depending on your winter you can leave if for food stores to remove the empty frmes in the spring. I only use mediums as well, I keep a shim for nucs and a shim for standard boxes that is a depth to make a medium into a deep, this way if im givin deep hardware I can work with it. without having to keep deep boxes that a rarely use. This also helps when I feed because the feeder I use fits in a empty deep and is to tall for a medium.

Fusion_power mentioned re-queening, this is probably the best corse of action for the packages. Find your TF queen supplier sooner rather than later and let them know you will be looking for a few queens in the late spring or early summer.


----------

