# Perone Hive Plans Anyone?



## Keefis

From what I see they are able to be built or "assembled" on top of a regular lang hive or warre. 
If you were going to build one from scratch I would consider making the topbars from your TBH fit the new hive to facilitate transfers between the two.
The few I saw did not mention a quilt but a regular looking top cover.


----------



## Che Guebuddha

There will be no transfers between hives in my Apiary. All "transfers" will be done by catching prime swarms and placing them into an empty hive. 
No more splits for me, no Queen cell destroying, no more comb manipulating, other than taking some honey at the end of the season, propolis, honey comb wax and some pollen (if the year is good). 
The brood box is opened only if the colony dies for clean up otherwise only a stubborn inspector can make me open it for inspection.

But i will keep the same size top bars to match the nuke box for the prime swarms to be sold. And in case they arent sold i can simply start a new hive

So the Perone you'v seen have solid roof without any ventilation at all?


----------



## JRG13

youtube 'automatic beehive' and there's a nice vid on putting a hive together.


----------



## camero7

Remember the Perone hive is designed for Aficanized bees that swarm often. It is also designed for tropical climates.


----------



## WWW

http://peronehive.com/


----------



## Che Guebuddha

At camero7,
Kenya Top Bar Hive is also designed for hot climates yet works like a charm i cold ones too  ask Dennis Murrell and Michael Bush. 

Kind regards, Che


----------



## camero7

I tried TBH and long hives. Couldn't get them through the winters up here. Good luck.


----------



## chaindrivecharlie

@ Che, are you planing to build 1 just for a trial in Sweden. If you are, keep in touch with me, for your weather is similar to mine. And I am always interested in a better way to keep bees. I have known and kepted up with Oscar since 2008. I see now He is also placing some in the mountains of Chile. I may build one this winter to try next spring with a package.
Best Regards:
Charlie


----------



## Che Guebuddha

Hi Charlie,
There is a huge chance my wife and I moving to an organic farm in Denmark February next year which means the Perone Hives will be started there on my proper PermApiary. 
Still a damp, cloudy, windy, cold climate it will be like in the South of Sweden. 
Sure will blog about it on my blog (subscribe for updates). 
Regards


----------



## cerezha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n3bEZgo6qU
http://beehivejournal.blogspot.com/2010/02/oscar-perone-hive.html


----------



## Zonker

Never heard of the perone hive before. Seems to contradict Warre's beliefs that a small cavity is better for the bees


----------



## Zonker

Also from a wood working perspective, making a box that large, strong, flat and square will be tough. Probably need a decent wood. Your standard (crap) pine from Lowes will never get it. Though I think the really deep soffits (roof edge) is a great idea.


----------



## cerezha

In the video, it looks like that the box made cheaply. Since,it never moved, it should not be very strong. It is basically a "cubicle" with the slotted lid. Slots imitated the frames. They put on top the smaller (shorter) boxes for honey, equivalent to Lang's supers. Once "super" is full, it is removed as a whole and extracted using crush-and-strain. Initially, Perone used 3 Lang's mediums attached together (cube) as a nest chamber with foundationless frames on the top. The Perone's second generation model is just a huge box without movable frames. Very interesting design. Sergey
http://beehivejournal.blogspot.com/2010/02/oscar-perone-hive.html


----------



## odfrank

"Please watch these videos on my new
English site.

http://peronehive.com/?page_id=19

Best Regards.

Oscar Perone

En este momento en Santa Eulalia de Oscos, Asturias, España
Teléfono fijo: 985626431
Desde el extranjero:
00 34 985626431
Sitios web:
http://www.permapicultura.com
http://www.permapicultura.es/
[email protected]"


----------



## cerezha

Oscar
Many thanks for your efforts. I think, your idea is great! It is interesting - I actually, re-designed my Lang hive in the direction similar to yours. I was not bold enough to put 3 mediums together for the nest, but, it is basically a one unit. I also do not use classical frames - I have top bars instead. Top bars created sort of "lid" very similar to your slotted lid. I made my cahnges before I learned about your hive. I was pleased to know that this approach works very well in your hands. Hopefully, it would work for me also. Good luck with your mission! I love Spain: Gaudi, Barcelona, Dali, Goya... Sergey


----------



## lesleylupo

Here is a PDF file with plans in cse you haven't found them yet...

Lesley

http://peronehive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Making-a-Perone-Hive.pdf


----------



## Zonker

Dam! I though I had tried every different type of hive, but suddenly I feel the need to switch to Perone hives. My bees are eventually going to get tired of my indecision.


----------



## Michael Bush

> I though I had tried every different type of hive, but suddenly I feel the need to switch to Perone hives.

Bees are happy in any cavity that is within certain size variance (and it's a lot of variance) and opening variance. I've found healthy productive colonies in the dry gas tanks of old cars, soffits, old abandoned water heaters, floor joists, 2 x 4 walls etc. I wouldn't change hives for the bees. They won't care. I would only change them for your convenience.


----------



## lesleylupo

Michael Bush said:


> > I though I had tried every different type of hive, but suddenly I feel the need to switch to Perone hives.
> 
> Bees are happy in any cavity that is within certain size variance (and it's a lot of variance) and opening variance. I've found healthy productive colonies in the dry gas tanks of old cars, soffits, old abandoned water heaters, floor joists, 2 x 4 walls etc. I wouldn't change hives for the bees. They won't care. I would only change them for your convenience.


I'm just beginning and my daughter had bought me a starter kit with a Langstroth without knowing that I had the plans for a Perone and have someone giving me a top bar. I took a class at the University of AZ and two of the beekeeprs are setting up in my yard. We'll be able to run an experiment for the next couple of years to see what the differences are. I'm very happy to be part of the group and spending a whole lot of time on YouTube watching all I can find. Thanks for the input Michael! I visit your web page ALL the time.


----------



## Michael Bush

>We'll be able to run an experiment for the next couple of years to see what the differences are. 

Just keep in mind, when you set up two or three hives and treat them identically, they do differently. The differences from one colony to the next will make a bigger difference than from one piece of equipment to the next...


----------



## Solarbeez

When my Warre was threatening to swarm, I knew I didn't want any more hives so I asked around to see if anyone wanted it. Being a prime swarm, I wanted to make sure the person appreciated it. Vernon said he wanted a swarm and he had built a Perone. That's great...here's a new beekeeper who has built his own hive "for the bees, not the beekeeper." We gave him our bucket of bees and he gave us his detailed pictures of his newly built Perone. They can be seen here...
http://solarbeez.com/2013/05/23/vernons-perone-hive/
For a person who only recently learned how to take photos, transfer them to the computer, and email them, I'm appreciating what he has done as much as he's appreciating the swarm I gave him.


----------



## cerezha

Solarbeez said:


> ... Vernon said he wanted a swarm and he had built a Perone. ...


 Nice pictures, many thanks for sharing. Excuse my ignorance but what is the distance center-to-center between brood bars? I understood that 9 mm space is important. Please, keep us posted - I am really interested to see how it will go. And pictures!


----------



## Vernon Strength

cerezha said:


> Nice pictures, many thanks for sharing. Excuse my ignorance but what is the distance center-to-center between brood bars? I understood that 9 mm space is important. Please, keep us posted - I am really interested to see how it will go. And pictures!


The bars are 24 mm and the space between them is 9 mm, so the center-to-center measurement is 33 mm.


----------



## cerezha

Vernon Strength said:


> The bars are 24 mm and the space between them is 9 mm, so the center-to-center measurement is 33 mm.


 Oooo
Thank you so much! Keep us posted with pictures!


----------



## DocBB

*a sketchup file*


----------



## KevinR

Am I missing something, but it appears that this is similar to a skep, where the comb is permanently attached to cross bracing sticks. You just have the honey/comb boxes added to the top.

It appears that the brood nest is not "inspect able", if so anyone in the US be careful with this hive style. Most of the states require that you can remove the brood comb for inspection.

I'd check the local regs before you build and have to remove this style hive... It is a neat idea though..


----------



## odfrank

I watched one of the videos where after a few months they could no longer open the brood chamber due to comb breakage. I am closing down the giant hives I built in 2007. Didn't work for me and mine had frames. The frame hive is a brilliant invention. You can work all combs and process them in a neat and clean manner. Size does matter......


----------



## imkeer

I'm almost sure the OP Che already has found a Perone Hive Plan, but for every one who's still looking: here it is... (pdf download)
http://www.biobees.com/library/hive_perone/Making-a-Perone-Hive.pdf


----------



## cerezha

KevinR said:


> It appears that the brood nest is not "inspect able" ..


 Perone hive is not designed for inspections - it's designed to leave it alone and come from time to time to collect honey-supers. Practically no maintenance required 

In his early design, Perone used standard Lang's boxes attached to each other to create a "nest volume". He drifted away from Lang once he eliminated frames - than dimensions are not important. In my design, I am using a hybrid approach inspired by Rose, Warre and Perone. I am using Lang's dimension boxes and top bars (instead frames). Top Bars are easy to move. Since, I am not so experienced beekeeper, I prefer do not interfere much in the nest. So, nest is on their own most of the time (I do necessary inspections). I am just managing honey part (chekerboarding mainly). My personal impression is that bees love large combs in the nest. In Russia and Ukraine large frames are very popular. In fact, so called "Ukrainian beehive" has gigantic frames (horizontal design, like a chest with lid). It seems to me that large continuous nest area is beneficial to bees and they are doing well in such beehives (not necessary convenient to the beekeeper). Mine bees were never treated with anything but love  for 4 years for now.


----------



## madhu

lesleylupo said:


> I'm just beginning and my daughter had bought me a starter kit with a Langstroth without knowing that I had the plans for a Perone and have someone giving me a top bar. I took a class at the University of AZ and two of the beekeeprs are setting up in my yard. We'll be able to run an experiment for the next couple of years to see what the differences are. I'm very happy to be part of the group and spending a whole lot of time on YouTube watching all I can find. Thanks for the input Michael! I visit your web page ALL the time.


Hoping to hear some of your results now 8 years hence.


----------



## JWPalmer

madhu said:


> Hoping to hear some of your results now 8 years hence.


lesleylupo has not signed onto Beesource since 2013. The Perone hive is not legal in the US as every state requires the hives to have removable comb, i. e., frames or topbars.


----------



## Michael Bush

> The Perone hive is not legal in the US as every state requires the hives to have removable comb, i. e., frames or topbars.


Last I heard Arizona had no laws on the books. But most do.


----------



## madhu

SWIM plans to do some Perone hives, (thanks Mr. Perone) and I personally find them exceptionally exciting. I really would like to hear about folks who have had experience with them or continue to experiment with them. Or let's hear your thoughts on it even if you haven't any experience with them. I know no one here does anything illegal.  

I definitely love the concept of an undisturbed bee space. - Now that's a different type of "bee space". - Though Perone was specific about bee space.... he liked the 9mm, which Cushman also spoke well of. 

Here's a video of two guys opening the Perone. They have no supers or top boxes on it (apparently not, although perhaps they take them off before shooting footage each update? benefit of the doubt) Regardless, they are completely violating the whole principle / approach. But that's not the point. They are giving an opportunity to see, although that could be much better done with a window (which violates further the simplicity of the Perone hive anyways) . I want you guys to see how huge and fat and awesome this bee hive comb is. Look at the comb structure its just totally amazing. You can visually see how the bees are thriving and would be able to "handle" just about anything. This is their natural form:






This video shows some "inside look" of a Perone hive but, the camera person is moving as if they are a bee themselves. Its a bit sporadic filming, but the shots are cool and its intriguing:


Dropping free plan hives here, and opening up this discussion. (thanks Phil)



https://www.biobees.com/library/hive_perone/Making-a-Perone-Hive.pdf



Folks at the very least I'd like to know why theres no further discussion on it since around a decade ago, because it seems super solid in many ways. A very cool approach.


----------



## Gray Goose

if you like undisturbed bee space do not open them, still can do a lang for that.

the hive type is determined by and for the titillations of the keeper, the bees do not care nearly as much.

Bee gums do the same thing, or drill a hole in your wall, of your house, from the outside.
As inspections are "needed and a part of keeping" little to discuss. If you like the idea, make a box that you fancy and put it out for the bees. or a Skep.. or Gum...

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> if you like undisturbed bee space do not open them, still can do a lang for that.


Indeed.
The idea is NOT of any particular hive blueprints.
The real idea is rather of the management style.
Dump the bees onto regular frame (your style), close them in, walk away.
Next year check on them, and if lucky, get your harvest share.
Nothing special of the Perone blueprints, UNLESS you after the woodworking project itself - then YES.


----------



## madhu

I humbly disagree with your advice Goose.

The top surface area where a comb can be attached in the largest common Langstroth (10 frame deep) is 272 square inches. 

The surface area where comb attaches in a Perone style hive is 503 square inches. 

That’s a vast difference of almost double the area…

The volume of a 10 frame deep Lang is 2,608 cu inches per box.

Perone’s undisturbed brood box measures in at 11,300 cubic inches. 

Therefore, you would need to stack minimum (5) 10 frame deep Langs to match the volume of the Perone undisturbed brood box, yet you would never achieve the surface area where the comb attaches by stacking Langs. 

On a practical note the Perone, it certainly will sit a lot shorter. Your undisturbed lang brood boxes will be 4’ tall, where as Perone’s brood box will be 2’ tall. Obviously when you start talking about supers the Lang just becomes impractical the way you are suggesting it. At least for those of us who don’t love hauling around heavy boxes that are up high.

Sure you can do skeps or gums, but no gum is going to match the ease and weight of a Perone stackable box. You might find a massive log and hollow it to work but that will be super difficult to find, move and carve out. Anyone can slap together some wood into square boxes. Probably even a grandma. 

I doubt skeps could hold a comb as large as I’ve seen on a Perone before it collapses. The ease of a laymen’s ability to build a Perone hive is fast and remarkable. I give this guy great credit and I will defend the working concept against at least just writing it off as I'm sensing.

And I know in his 30 something plus years of beekeeping, Perone’s learned a few things. He started with Langstroth and eventually developed this concept after many iterations (as is the way developing new ideas goes).


----------



## Gray Goose

madhu said:


> I humbly disagree with your advice Goose.
> 
> The top surface area where a comb can be attached in the largest common Langstroth (10 frame deep) is 272 square inches.
> 
> The surface area where comb attaches in a Perone style hive is 503 square inches.
> 
> That’s a vast difference of almost double the area…
> 
> The volume of a 10 frame deep Lang is 2,608 cu inches per box.
> 
> Perone’s undisturbed brood box measures in at 11,300 cubic inches.
> 
> Therefore, you would need to stack minimum (5) 10 frame deep Langs to match the volume of the Perone undisturbed brood box, yet you would never achieve the surface area where the comb attaches by stacking Langs.
> 
> On a practical note the Perone, it certainly will sit a lot shorter. Your undisturbed lang brood boxes will be 4’ tall, where as Perone’s brood box will be 2’ tall. Obviously when you start talking about supers the Lang just becomes impractical the way you are suggesting it. At least for those of us who don’t love hauling around heavy boxes that are up high.
> 
> Sure you can do skeps or gums, but no gum is going to match the ease and weight of a Perone stackable box. You might find a massive log and hollow it to work but that will be super difficult to find, move and carve out. Anyone can slap together some wood into square boxes. Probably even a grandma.
> 
> I doubt skeps could hold a comb as large as I’ve seen on a Perone before it collapses. The ease of a laymen’s ability to build a Perone hive is fast and remarkable. I give this guy great credit and I will defend the working concept against at least just writing it off as I'm sensing.
> 
> And I know in his 30 something plus years of beekeeping, Perone’s learned a few things. He started with Langstroth and eventually developed this concept after many iterations (as is the way developing new ideas goes).


Good reply
use what you feel is best.
not writing it off, just for me it is not practical, for you may be a match.

BTW in the cold many papers from Russia from the 1800s and early 1900s to observe the need for deep VRS shallow.

from your profile not sure where your hive are, but here I still have 2 feet of snow

And yes several of my hives are 4 foot tall, nice ones too. 4 deeps split nicely into 4 10 frame splits in spring, for recovery of a poor winter.

Carry on
do comment on the production and survival, if this is the next best thing then several folks may migrate that way.

looking forward to your postings later in the year.

GG


----------



## GregB

madhu said:


> That’s a vast difference of almost double the area…
> The volume of a 10 frame deep Lang is 2,608 cu inches per box.
> Perone’s undisturbed brood box measures in at 11,300 cubic inches.


madhu,
Really no need to create a monster-oversized empty space - at some point it does not matter since the colony will not grow in size indefinitely.
I'd vote for a triple-deep volume (about 120 liter volume) of your favorite configuration and call it a day.


----------

