# Using 2X lumber for boxes?



## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Why is the "standard" for boxes 1X lumber? I know 2X lumber would be heavier, but an empty box isn't really that heavy anyway. 2X lumber might not cost more than comparable 1X lumber. 2X lumber would definitely mill better, glue up better, and it would also provide more insulation in the winter. I'm going to make a complete hive and see how it works.


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## ralph3 (Jun 3, 2012)

The first hives I built were 2x. I made 20 7 frame medium boxes and 20 supers. I'm thinkin about making more supers for them out of 2x and use those for winter hives. They are cheaper to build at a retail lumber level. They are a bit heavy if you grab ahold of a hive with a feeder and top, full of bees and tote it very far.

Yet they are so stout i bet if they were strapped or chained down a bear couldn't tear into them.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

just remember to hold the inside dimentions the same as a normal 1x lumber hive. YOu still want standard frames to fit inside it.


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## Wyvern (Jun 4, 2011)

All of my top bar hives are made of 2x lumber. a 2x12 costs less than a 1x12 for some strange reason.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Wyvern said:


> a 2x12 costs less than a 1x12 for some strange reason.


lower grade of wood


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Specialkayme said:


> lower grade of wood


That's true, but the way lumber looks these days it's more like choosing the lesser of two evils, at least here in the deep south. No lumber is anywhere near the quality that it was 20 years ago. I think I'd take thicker, stronger and more knots, over what little 1X lumber has to offer now. You have to sort through half a stack to find boards that aren't split on the end, and then they cup. 

I'd like to find some spruce 2x8x12' boards but I don't think anyone here has spruce in anything wider than a 2x6. That would be much lighter than Southern Yellow Pine.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

2X lumber is fine but usually cost more.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

From the bees point of view 2 inch is likely better, getting closer to the insulation qualities of a tree.

However, I have to work on hives owned by a guy who has 400 hives, all built of 2 inch timber. Trust me, it can be hard work, surprising how that bit more weight in every box can wear you down.

The guy himself is a bit of a leave it alone beekeeper, to his cost. And I suspect it is partly the prospect of the constant heavy lifting that makes him that way. It's not only the weight either, the box is also 2 inches bigger each way, so you have to bend that little bit more, etc.


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## crazylocha (Mar 26, 2013)

Thats why I love cypress


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

crazylocha said:


> Thats why I love cypress


Rub it in why don't you? 

I use to live in SE AL and I used cypress to build bluebird boxes. Those boxes are now over 15 years old and still look as good as they did the first summer. I love that silver grey color of weathered cypress. Now that I'm a beek, I really miss the cypress. If I could get it here I'd use the rough cut 1x thickness and build every box out of it. What I use to get was about 1 1/4" thick.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Because 3/4 inch thick wood works just fine. It's your back, do as you wish.

Crazy Roland


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Going by the prices I saw at Lowe's, a medium super built from 2x8 raw material would be 33% cheaper than a medium super built from a 1x8...... Both pieces of wood are Southern Yellow Pine graded as #2 Prime. 

Looks like I'm going to 2x material for my boxes. The added weight is really a non issue for me.


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## High-On-Burlap (May 6, 2013)

When you start pulling 50+ full honey supers in a day your back will tell you why, and in the long run quality wood will be your friend. I've worked with boxes from the 40's that are still in good condition because they were made of quality wood.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

What do you consider quality wood?


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## High-On-Burlap (May 6, 2013)

kiln dried, not a lot of knots, not quick grown plantation wood. most of my families boxes are made of ponderosa pine, though we use MDO paper two side for the lids. quality is expensive in the short term but if you can give your equipment to your kids in 50 years its worth it.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I only have about 2 practical choices. Quick grown plantation pine, which I can get without a lot of knots, or rough cut, air dried poplar. Poplar is light but has a tendency to become very fragile. 

I just did some calculations for southern yellow pine and an empty medium super from 1X would weight 6.25lbs and from 2x lumber it would weight 12.5 lbs. So it's 6.25 lbs added to a full super of honey. I'm going to try it. I may regret it, but I'm going to build some. One other advantage is that I can mill one heck of a good modified shiplap joint in the 2x lumber. It will provide 1 1/2" of surface for gluing and be totally isolated from any exposed end grain.

EDIT: If nothing else I could use 2x lumber for the brood chamber and put 1x supers on them. I would only need one super per hive with a flange on the bottom for the transition from 2x to 1x.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Brad Bee said:


> If nothing else I could use 2x lumber for the brood chamber and put 1x supers on them. I would only need one super per hive with a flange on the bottom for the transition from 2x to 1x.


Transition with a _flange_? :scratch: 

Hopefully the boxes you build from 2x lumber will have identical _INSIDE _dimensions as 1x boxes. So why would a flange be needed?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

The inside dimensions will be the same, the exterior dimensions would be different. If you have a box made from 1X lumber sitting on top of a box made from 2X lumber you will have a 3/4" wide lip left all the way around the top of the 2X lumber box. If you attach a strip of 3/4" quarter round to the side of the 1X lumber box at the bottom of the side, the bottom thickness will be 1 1/2" which will exactly cover the 2X box and won't leave a flat spot for rainwater to stand. Make sense?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

45 Chamfer the top of the 2x boxes so they have 3/4 to 7/8 in land on top instead of quarter round on the bottom of the 3/4 boxes. I would plan on at least 2 supers per hive.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

That would certainly work.


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## ralph3 (Jun 3, 2012)

I cut a little lip in mine that is 3/16 high. They telescope over the lower box. They won't slide. Also the same size boxes i made out of 3/4 stuff for light honey supers will fit that groove perfectly. The 2x super will fit perfectly over them.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

At the retail level 2x lumber is better quality (not to include 2x4s), 2x lumber is made for construction and it must meet industrial standards. 1x lumber is made for interior shelves or the hobby wood workers. There is always stacks of the 2x lumber which you can pick even better pieces. And only a few pieces 1x and 1/2 of those are junk. (unless you get the select pine 1x almost knot free but it’s going to cost you)

I buy the 16 foot lengths and have Lowes cut them smaller so I can easily cut them on my table saw. About 6" per board goes to waste.
It cost me about $6 buck to make a deep with rabbit joints and about $4 for the super. I use wood screw (2.99 lb) and tite bond III. I then apply a 25 year latex caulk to the end grain and knots (5 min per box). And top it off with a 25 year opps paint. 

And there is more 2x lumber available so you can pick the best boards, and a knot in a 2x is nothing to worry about, 



Oldtimer said:


> From the bees point of view 2 inch is likely better, getting closer to the insulation qualities of a tree.


I completely agree, and also believe bees will winter/summer better and use less honey to heat and cool their hive. Winter survival percentages will increase at least a little. 2 inch wood also absorb more moisture.

A down side is the is hive very heavy. And you will have to make them they are not available for sale.


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## Ruthz (Sep 13, 2011)

I made a couple 2x deeps, because I had some free lumber, and found that if I made them for 8 frames, they stack and sit nicely with the ten frame 1x deeps. They are a pain to lift, though, so I only use them as a bottom brood box. It might be my imagination, but I think that with the 2x wood, the bees are more likely to draw out comb and lay eggs on the outside frames with the thicker wood. Of co ruse, maybe they just run out of room faster with only 8 frames.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why is the "standard" for boxes 1X lumber?

One by boxes are much lighter. They used to be cheaper... don't know if that's still true or not (I haven't compared prices lately). I would prefer lighter boxes to heavier boxes...


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

I'm thinking of building a couple nucs with 2" lumber. It's usually cheaper and better grade here. I think a simple butt joint would work fine for a nuc. The extra weight wouldn't be as much of a problem, and the extra insulation would be more important. Has anyone tried this?

I'm all mediums. I'm thinking a 6 or 7 frame nuc with 2" lumber could probably work in western MO? Maybe I should do a double 5 frame? I thought I'd wait until fall and see how many frames of bees and honey I have to put in them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Butt joints work fine if you screw them together. Otherwise they are not very trustworthy. A rabbet joint would be easy enough to do even with a regular blade, and two cuts on a table saw. A 45 screwed together in a jig so they stay in position would have a lot less exposed grain...


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks! I'll probably try to 45.

Do you think the 2" would be worthwhile? How small of a nuc do you think would be likely to survive here? I'm thinking of a 6- 7 frame medium. I'm 90 miles south of Kansas City. I may have done one split too many. I couldn't get a Foley queen I wanted until this week. They kept making more brood earlier this year.

If we keep getting rain, I think they'll build up enough. I can borrow from the earlier splits, but they're all new so can't borrow lot.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Kenww said:


> I'm thinking of a 6- 7 frame medium.


I strongly suggest you stick with a standard size box that the beeks in your area are useing. If they like useing 8's go with 8 if they are useing 10's go that way.

Within our beekeeping club in our area there is people willing to lend equipment back and forth as need be. IT could be an impromptu swarm catch or unexpected splits due to swarm cells. you dont want to be the odd man out that cant make use of the extra super you needed at the right time.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you think the 2" would be worthwhile?

It probably helps the bees some. I cluster all my hives together for winter, so 10 hives are touching on three sides and 4 hives are touching on two sides. I think that probably pays better than the 2" lumber and I don't have to lift so much. Weight is a big issue in beekeeping.

> How small of a nuc do you think would be likely to survive here? I'm thinking of a 6- 7 frame medium.

I have overwintered single eight frame boxes but if I get some really cold weather, they sometimes don't make it. Two eight frame mediums is a much better bet. That is, of course, assuming I have the bees and honey to fill those boxes. Adding a box to a small cluster is counterproductive. But growing it to fill another box is very helpful. You may have to feed to get them to grow that big if the flow is slow, but two boxes would be my goal.


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## jooky (Mar 18, 2016)

after multiple splits getting chilled brood this year I am going to build a 2x nuc with a heating pad. this will be my nurse hive for making queens as early as i can in the PNW area.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Several of my boxes were made from 2x that I resawed and planed to 3/4"

The r-value of 3/4" wood is ~1. A 2x will have an r value of ~2. That isn't going to make a practical difference to be a factor in the choice.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JConnolly said:


> Several of my boxes were made from 2x that I resawed and planed to 3/4"
> 
> The r-value of 3/4" wood is ~1. A 2x will have an r value of ~2. That isn't going to make a practical difference to be a factor in the choice.


Whilst discussing the so-called "insulation" characteristics of some material, do not forget - this is not about simple R-values.

Need to consider at least the combination of R-value AND also the material's *thermal mass*.
Twice more wood provides twice the R-value and twice the thermal mass in combination (both help to shave off the external temp swings during the critical early spring build-up time).

Since during the active brood times, bees actively depend on maintaining constant optimal temp dis-balance from the external conditions (by heating and cooling) - every little helps the energy expenditures. Better for the bees.

Yes, the structure will be more heavy too - not so good for the keeper.

Added: if you are like me (a scavenger for free stuff) 2X lumber is much easier to find, being a standard construction material in dumpsters and streets (free 1X is harder to scavenge); this is one reason I started looking into those "small, 90-degree oriented frame hives" - small frame boxes from 2X are both light enough for me and still provide better cavity for the bees (R-value/thermal mass)


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## clong (Apr 6, 2015)

I want to chime in on using 2x lumber. There is no getting around the added weight. If you are using all mediums, it is bit easier to deal with. GregV has already pointed out the benefits of improved R-value and thermal mass. I am finding it cheaper to acquire as well.

In my experience last winter while observing two colonies of similar size, the bees in the 2x hive were still moving around on the comb down into the high 30s F. Not a lot, but they were moving. The other 3/4" hive was tightly clustered. No wandering whatsover.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

clong said:


> ....In my experience last winter while observing two colonies of similar size, the bees in the 2x hive were still moving around on the comb down into the high 30s F. Not a lot, but they were moving. The other 3/4" hive was tightly clustered. No wandering whatsover.


Which makes sense.
This is all about *slowing *down the temp swings, either up or down, NOT completely stopping them (which is impossible using wood material). 

Thicker wood slows the rapid cooling down and allows for extra time for bees to (re)arrange as they need.
Thicker wood also slows the fast warming up - good in many ways, both in cold and warm season.


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## lobottomee (May 3, 2015)

A bump to this thread. As a thought exercise, a deep trough hive such as a Lazutin not intended to be migratory, formed with concrete 3"-4" thick with Polystyrene insulation attached to the outside would seem to provide a stable temperature and humidity environment for the colony. The concrete would provide thermal capacitance in order to buffer temperature swings inside the cavity and preserve the heat generated by the bees. The insulation on the outside would slow heat transfer between the concrete mass and ambient conditions. During summer conditions, the same combination should help maintain stable temperature and humidity environment. Net effect would be reducing the amount of energy the colony needs to expend maintaining the cavity environment throughout the year.

Thoughts?


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## clong (Apr 6, 2015)

Lobottomee,

There is a similar approach to accomplish the same thing, without the concrete. Rigid insulation can be attached to the outside of conventional wooden boxes. It needs to be painted to last. This also allows for a stable environment inside the hive. This is what I will be trying starting in early 2019. See the following link for a description and drawings, and a video on how Bob Stewart insulated his hives.

http://stewartfarm.org/bees.php


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## lobottomee (May 3, 2015)

I actually have used that approach for the past several years and have had good success with it. I use 2x lumber and during the Winter add a Warre type quilt box. But I'm curious about what impact the addition of some thermal mass would make. At some point I will add some sensors inside a hive and record temperature and humidity readings.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

2x pine? I've never seen it. So it seems that many are comparing different types of wood. Pine vs fir vs cypress,..........or?
I'm real confident that most commercial hives are 1x pine, though there may be exceptions. Frames also are pine; however, I have wondered what wood mannlake uses in their nicely cut frames as well as where they are manufactured.
Lumber grades have definitely changed. A #3 pine board used to be a #2 with a flaw, like a loose knot or flaw on the edge. A#2 was a perfect board, not clear, but with perfect edges and tight knots. #3 as I have defined is definitely the better value. The caveat is: if you can find it.


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Gino45 said:


> 2x pine? I've never seen it. So it seems that many are comparing different types of wood. Pine vs fir vs cypress,..........or?
> I'm real confident that most commercial hives are 1x pine, though there may be exceptions. Frames also are pine; however, I have wondered what wood mannlake uses in their nicely cut frames as well as where they are manufactured.


2X pine is typically construction lumber and is nominally 1.5" thick.

Mann Lake uses pine for their woodenware that is 1x, which is nominally 3/4" thick.


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## Alex Madsen (Aug 26, 2018)

This site has several hive plans using 2x lumber. I built the horizontal lang last winter. 
http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/hive-frame-swarm-trap.shtml


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## Sour Kraut (Jun 17, 2012)

Brad Bee said:


> Why is the "standard" for boxes 1X lumber?


Well, the '1X' 'standard' has evolved over the years.

'1X' WAS 1" at one time, then 15/16, then 7/8, then 13/16, and is now 'nominally' 3/4"

( For a mind-numbing discussion on how 'dimensional' lumber's 'dimensions' have changed, here you go:

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/miscpub_6409.pdf )

Also, I read a while back and have been trying ever since to find the passage in numerous books I've accumulated, that Langstroth's first 'standard' hive was made from a FRUIT SHIPPING CRATE, thus the 20 x 16-1/4 'standard' outside dimensions.

So it seems that maybe 'the father of modern beekeeping' might have grabbed the first handy empty box, made frames to FIT THE BOX, and the rest, as they say, is history...


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## donna_in_TN (Aug 3, 2019)

I did it the other way round, so my existing lids, bottom boards, and supers would fit. Bought, think it was an 8 ft 2x10 and a twelve ft 1x10. We don't have fancy wood working equipment or skills, so wanted something to do with hand tools. We cut the 2x's for the sides, the 1x's for the ends. It was pine for the 2x's and spruce for the 1x's, not so good. And they weren't QUITE the same width, so it might have been a little breezy till the bees propylized the gaps. Got two 7 frame deeps and a 9 frame deep out of it. Have been using them for a year. I had no intention of moving them around, they are my bottom boxes, and the 1/8" deficiency in depth is made up for by setting on a bottom board. I'm happy with the 7 frames, but the 9 frame is a little tight. If I make any more, think I will just use 2x for one side of the 9 frame and aim that at the N side for winter, maybe the S for summer. I only used Mann Lakes weird wood treatment for of the 7 frames, paint for the other 2. I had moisture problems in a standard 10 frame hive last winter, but no problem with the 7 frame hives with the 2x sides.


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## donna_in_TN (Aug 3, 2019)

Correction, I see that the 10" width boards are only 9 1/4" thick so the boxes are 3/8" shorter than they ought to be. But as I say, they were made ONLY to be bottom boxes and I don't move them around, and setting on the bottom board they are fine. Still plenty of bee space below the frames. And they only cost me $9 a box, if you don't count labor. They ARE heavy, esp as they don't have a cut in for handles, they have added wood for handles. I thought that a 1x4 or 1x3 as handles on the ends would make up for them not being as thick. That's one thing I really don't like about the standard equipment, is those cut in handles that mean the boards are closer to 1/4" thick at that point. We didn't have a very cold winter last yr in Tennessee, but summers are hot here too, so I like the idea of thermal mass as well as insulation. It was an experiment for me, and I am not at all displeased with the results. I've spent way too much on bee equipment the last 3 years, so getting those boxes for $25 instead of $75 suited me fine. At least my bees were free, so I guess I shouldn't complain. I have heard way too many stories of failed queens and pkgs.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

JConnolly said:


> Several of my boxes were made from 2x that I resawed and planed to 3/4"
> 
> The r-value of 3/4" wood is ~1. A 2x will have an r value of ~2. That isn't going to make a practical difference to be a factor in the choice.


hmmm reading the thread from 1x to 2x is a 100% increase in the R value if 100% does not make a practical difference then so be it. Nights do not last forever, the goal is to stay warm until the next sunrise, any help to keep the heat in would help incrementally IMO.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I suppose one argument against 2x lumber is - it is heavier (for a set # of frames contained).

Well, who said the # of frames must be set to X.
Make it (X-1) to make up for the heavier box.
Or make a smaller box or a smaller frame or make them both smaller.

Doubling the thermal mass of the wall - this is where it really counts.
Doubling the R-value counts, but less so.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Sour Kraut said:


> Well, the '1X' 'standard' has evolved over the years.
> 
> '1X' WAS 1" at one time, then 15/16, then 7/8, then 13/16, and is now 'nominally' 3/4"
> 
> ...


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