# Question on mites.



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

I have very little bee experience! Over the past couple of weeks I've been reading about mites. From what I've found, they are the #1 enemy! 

Just say that I have property at least 5 miles from the nearest tame honeybee hive, if I would have a healthy, "mite free" hive, how could it get "infested" with mites?

Or is there anything such as a "mite free" hive? 

I don't have bee hives now, but there are feral or wild hives in the area. 

I understand that bees are livestock, and more than likely will need to be treated for mites, but just curious how they spread. I mean even if they are out in the boonies, all alone, just one mite free or "clean" hive. 

Could my "clean" bees pick up the parasites, say from visiting the same flower bloom? How does that work? I don't know.


----------



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

There isn't as far as I know anything such as a mite free hive in the USA now. In Australia where the varroa hasn't shown up yet there is, but not here. 

If you have feral hives in your area that have been there for many years, there's a chance that you may have very good genetics available. Catching swarms issued from those hives would be the best stock to start with as they are considered "Survivor Stock". 

The varroa jump from host to host. During the latter part of the season when hives crash due to robbing, the mites will jump on new bees and take a ride to another hive.


----------



## Paulemar (Aug 28, 2013)

Drlonzo is correct. If you buy packages or nucs, they have mites. If you catch swarms, they too have mites. There's nothing that you can treat bees with that will eliminate 100% of them. We just have to deal with them as best we can or you may lose your bees either directly to high mite levels or indirectly to the diseases that they transmit.


----------



## mbevanz (Jul 23, 2012)

The swarms Ive caught the last couple years don't seem to be so great???


----------



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

Not sure? As of late last fall, I knew the approximate location of 2 wild hives, and the exact location of another. And as far as I know, there is also a hive out on the family farm. It was there. Who knows what will survive the winter?

But the one hive, I'm positive it's been there for at least 3 or 4 years. 

Don't know, all of them might die off this winter???

But my plans are to set a few "swarm traps", hopefully I can get one going. 

If I am lucky enough to catch a swarm, I'm planning on treating it for mites.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Does any other insect besides honeybee support and carry varroa mites? In other words if there are no other kept or feral hives within 15 miles could hives be, and remain, mite free? I have only seen it expressed as a certainty that such a condition does not exist anywhere in USA. How about Canada? Thunder Bay Ontario used to be mite free but someone brought in outside bees and they were trying to put the genii back in the bottle. I have not heard whether they have regained mite free status.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

redsnow said:


> But the one hive, I'm positive it's been there for at least 3 or 4 years.


hi redsnow and welcome to the forum.

this can be a little bit tricky. when a colony dies out over winter they leave a perfect place for a new swarm to move into the next spring. the only way to know if that colony has survived for at least 3 or 4 years is if you are able to make sure the hive wasn't empty of bees coming out of winter over those years. for this year you'll need to look at them early in the season on the first days warm enough for flying to see if there are bees bringing in pollen.

if it is indeed the case that the colony is surviving multiple winters off treatments, and if you are able to trap them out or catch a swarm off of them, then you just might have some good survivor bees on your hands. in a way it makes more sense to not treat bees like this but rather work hard at propagating more bees from them and see how they do.

of course all of that is a pretty tall order for a rank beginner. my suggestion is for you to consider checking around and seeing if there are any other beekeepers in your area willing to help you. you may be able to find some who are working with bees like that and having success in keeping them without having to treat for mites.

either way, i hope you'll keep us posted has to how it all turns out for you.


----------



## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

Bumble bees are being impacted by Varroa.
Hypothetically if your clean honeybees bump into a infected Bumble...


----------



## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

1/19/2016.

Drones are well known to drift into hives.

Regards,
Ernie


----------



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

I understand. It's very possible the the hive has kind of "changed hands", but as far as I know, it's had bees the whole time. Never know.

I've been checking with the local beekeepers, honestly can only find 4, anywhere near. 3 more guys have bees, and all of them are over 20 miles away. The local beekeepers, they only have 1, 2 or 4 hives. Then there is a big guy, 2 counties away, he has over 900 hives.

I'm just kind of feeling things out, if I can find anyone interested in putting bees in this area, he/she would be more than welcome. Probably best for me to watch and learn, for a while. 

Talked to a man today, think he's going to loan me some old boxes with comb, and I have 2 more guys that will help educate me.


----------



## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

redsnow said:


> I understand. It's very possible the the hive has kind of "changed hands", but as far as I know, it's had bees the whole time. Never know.
> 
> I've been checking with the local beekeepers, honestly can only find 4, anywhere near. 3 more guys have bees, and all of them are over 20 miles away. The local beekeepers, they only have 1, 2 or 4 hives. Then there is a big guy, 2 counties away, he has over 900 hives.
> 
> ...


If there's a guy with 900 hives two counties away, there are good chances he has hives in your county. That's not, generally, the number of hives you keep in a single county.


----------



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

No, I think his bees are either down south now or out west. 

I've met the man, he doesn't keep any of his bees within 10 miles of me. We talked a good bit, I can open up quite a bit of land for him. We'll see what happens.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I would like to know if there have been any testing done to see how long a mite can live outside a hive and not attached to a bee. I theorize that they are out in the grass and brush and flowers, just like fleas and ticks. Fleas and ticks need a host to survive, but the host picks them up out in the wild. There's fleas in the lawns and grass around the house, there's ticks in the brush, why not mites in the flower fields and grass and brush? That would sure answer what I've seen in trying to control mites in the hives.


----------



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

Good question. I do know that ticks can survive for quite a while, without a host. Probably weeks. 

Very good theory. I don't know. 

Just like any livestock, there are parasites, where they come from ???


----------



## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

Varroa mites can live only a few days without a blood meal from an immature or adult bee. Equipment that has been stored free of brood and adult bees for two weeks or more may be reused without fear of mite survivability. Varroa mites are spread from colony to colony by drifting bees, especially drones.
Varroa Mite Control in South Carolina - Clemson University

http://www.clemson.edu/extension/beekeepers/factsheets/varroa_mite_control_in_sc.html


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Like when it comes to diseases, beekeepers are the greatest vectors of mites. There is some reason to believe that Varroa mites may travel on foraging bees and that they get off of those foraging bees onto flowers that are then visited by bees from other hives. The mites get on the bees and into a new colony.

Drones can carry mites. Drones are accepted into hives without challenge. So drones can be a way for mites to get around too.

At one time, 1988, varroa mites were barely known to exist in NY State. I helped apply some of the first Apistan strips used in NY, as a NYS Apiary Inspector. Over the next 4 or 5 years the mites had spread to every remote part of the State. Places where there were very few managed hives at great distances from each other, even in parts of NY where honeybees don't normally survive. My point is that Varroa mites get around. Not much at all that we can do about it.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Scpossum said:


> Varroa mites can live only a few days without a blood meal from an immature or adult bee. Equipment that has been stored free of brood and adult bees for two weeks or more may be reused without fear of mite survivability...





sqkcrk said:


> ...There is some reason to believe that Varroa mites may travel on foraging bees and that they get off of those foraging bees onto flowers that are then visited by bees from other hives...


A few days...
Seems like this is more common than we may assume, to me. I can't see the mite loads escalating as fast and huge as they do here after a late summer treatment, by late fall, the hives are infested again. Once again, just my thinking here. I think mites travel by drifting, yes of course, but drifting normally occurs from hive to hive in the same yard, not from yard to yard over distance, I would think. Drones, of course, drones are accepted in many hives over great distances. But transfer by flower visits, seems to me this happens a lot more than we might think, a way for the mite to travel from hive to hive without drifting of bees, this would greatly explain some of my experiences here. Just me thinking out loud here folks.


----------



## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

RayMarler said:


> But transfer by flower visits, seems to me this happens a lot more than we might think, a way for the mite to travel from hive to hive without drifting of bees, this would greatly explain some of my experiences here. Just me thinking out loud here folks.


Sounds like a research grant in the making.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Not sure what a few days mean. Probably 3 days?
Would it prolong the mite's survival rate on a dead bee or
on a piece of tissue paper inside a test tube? Looks like a
good mite experiment to try it out the next time I catch one
with a small sharp razor blade on a hive mite check. 
Do the male mites die faster than the female mites once out of
the hive? I would assume that they spread by robber bees, on
foraging flowers, and the drones too. There is no way to completely
get rid of them once the bees have them. The only way is to keep them
under control with a homemade oav gadget at every hatch 21 days cycle.


----------



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I recall reading one of Randy Oliver's articles that made a point about how stronger hives robbed out failing hives and by doing so, gave the varroa a vector to get from the failing hives to healthier hives. This would imply that the mites simply hitched another ride from one dead hive to the next. I belive that it's being referred to as a "mite bomb" at this point. 

Bumble bees are being affected by the varroa too, as mentioned above. So the possibility of a mite hitching a new ride elsewhere is pretty good. If you really give thought to this, how else would they have gone from being smuggled in on a queen or whatnot to thriving nation wide?


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I like to play What If.

What if...
What if Varroa Destructor is an aggressive parasite that actively seeks out other host colonies to invade, especially after summer solstice where the natural tendencies of a bee hive colony is to reduce brooding numbers, therefore causing the mite to seek out other colonies to keep reproducing in? What if the mites are actively seeking out other host colonies to invade at all times?

What if every tenth bee drops a mite on a flower that is in active nectar production. Another bee will come to that flower the next day, or later that same day, to gather nectar and become infested with the mite that lays in waiting. What if it's only every 20th bee that drops a mite. Or, how about just every 100th bee drops a mite? If we have a colony of 20,000 foraging bees at any one time, that would equate to 200 mites being dropped off on flowers in the field. If it was lower numbers of bees, such as every 50th bee that drops a mite, then we are looking at 400 mites being dropped... every day? Once a week?

I think this is very possible, and I think this is actually happening, but have no proof of it. It just makes too much sense. Robbing out die outs? how many commercial beekeepers that use hives for pollination services actually have that many die outs? Enough die outs to explain the tremendous amount of infestations in the late summer and fall, even after treatments? And as for drifting, sure, drifting in hives in a yard I can see, and do see, but drifting between distant yards? I doubt that happens very much, not enough to cause the mite problems I deal with. Drone drift? sure, that's more possible, but I still don't see it as being the root cause of the problems I experience and see around me.

OK, so maybe I'm totally wrong on this and am just a crazy guy in California, but through playing my little What If game, that's what I come up with. All the above mentioned ways of mite travel combined might cause the problems I see here. I think Varroa Destructor is very aggressively seeking out other host colonies to invade, and dropping off on nectar producing flowers to be picked up by other bees from other colonies just makes too much natural sense to me.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

RayMarler said:


> but I still don't see it as being the root cause of the problems I experience and see around me


Hi Ray
What are the problems you are having with mites? Reinfestation?
What was your treatment strategy in the last 4 months?
What techniques you used to monitor the varroa rate in your hives ?


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

What if....
I believe most of the mites drift by robbing.



> I would like to know if there have been any testing done to see how long a mite can live outside a hive and not attached to a bee.


I put one dead bee with a mite on it into a tupperware container last year. Some hours later the mite left the bee. It lived for 5 days.

I believe if living mites fall down and you have a closed floor, they will jump on the bees again if the falling down was an accident. I tested this with a toothpick. The mites on a paper were not able to move very well. But giving them a toothpick made them cling to it very fast. Just like a bee leg.
With open floors they are eaten by ants.


----------



## I'llbeedan (Mar 31, 2013)

RayMarler said:


> I like to play What If.
> 
> What if...
> What if Varroa Destructor is an aggressive parasite that actively seeks out other host colonies to invade, especially after summer solstice where the natural tendencies of a bee hive colony is to reduce brooding numbers, therefore causing the mite to seek out other colonies to keep reproducing in? What if the mites are actively seeking out other host colonies to invade at all times?


 I agree with you As I have long suspected this to be the method of infestation. How else could one explain the rapid infestation of fairly isolated apiaries that have had no infusions of new bees.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beepro said:


> Do the male mites die faster than the female mites once out of
> the hive?


I'm not sure about this, but I don't think you will find male Varroa mites outside of the brood cell it was produced in.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

RayMarler said:


> I like to play What If.
> What if...


What if Varroa mites hitch a ride to another hive on a beekeeper's clothing.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

I'llbeedan said:


> I agree with you As I have long suspected this to be the method of infestation. How else could one explain the rapid infestation of fairly isolated apiaries that have had no infusions of new bees.


Little effective treatment is one of the hypotheses that comes quickly to my mind. But I believe that this hypothesis should not be the only one to consider.

>>What if Varroa mites hitch a ride to another hive on a beekeeper's clothing.>>
It had never occurred to me.


----------



## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

I think it's pretty darn hard to evaluate varroa behavior "out in the wild", and most tests are either done in labs, or in controlled hives (often observation hives). I don't think much is really known about what happens to them outside of hives, and a lot of presumptions are thrown around.

"How long can varroa survive without a host" is pretty darn good question. It was said three days... was that three days in a glass tube before it starved to death? There aren't many glass tubes out in the wild to trap oneself in. For example, many predatory mites seem to also be able to at least survive on pollen and nectar. Maybe they can lick off honeydew too? Heck, chew on aphids even, perhaps? They can't reproduce outside of the hive, and as such they must be really hard to observe in the wild, but I think it's quite possible that some mechanisms would allow them to live longer than 3 days.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Little effective treatment is one of the hypotheses that comes quickly to my mind. But I believe that this hypothesis should not be the only one to consider.
> 
> >>What if Varroa mites hitch a ride to another hive on a beekeeper's clothing.>>
> It had never occurred to me.


I recall an article on "AIDS" in "The Speedy Bee". In the article AIDS had nothing to do with HIV. It was about "Apiary Inspector Disease Syndrome". The idea being that Apiary Inspectors, by inspecting multiple hives in multiple yards, spread bee diseases. As Apiary Inspectors, the transfer of varroa from an infested apiary to a not yet infested apiary, we thought about that.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> we thought about that.


Mark have you reached any conclusions? 

In Portugal we have some islands in the Azores that haven't varroa. Azores care many flowers of the continent and between infested and non-infested islands and even now some islands still varroa free. If the flowers were as important varroas vehicle I suppose all the islands were already infested. 

I'm just speculating ... like everyone else.


----------



## Ekosshadow (Feb 26, 2014)

One of the speakers at last fall's Georgia Beekeeper Association conference spoke on current studies concerning varroa vs hive density. Initial data was supporting a statement of the closer colonies are to each other the faster the varroa migration. The speaker did not however allude to method of migration. Colonies that were farther apart took longer for varroa to migrate. Interesting, I just have to remember to keep an eye out for the study when it's published. I can't remember for sure but I believe it was being conducted our of University of Georgia.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Mark have you reached any conclusions?


No.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ekosshadow said:


> Initial data was supporting a statement of the closer colonies are to each other the faster the varroa migration. The speaker did not however allude to method of migration.


Well, they can walk.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Or is there anything such as a "mite free" hive? 

No. There is no such thing in North America as a "mite free" hive. In fact no where, but in Australia you might have a "Varroa mite free" hive. But you won't have a "Varroa mite free hive" in North America, or South America, or Europe...

Here is the distribution of where they are endemic:
http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

>>But you won't have a "Varroa mite free hive" in North America, or South America, or Europe...>>

The Azores are a few small islands in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, are part of the Portuguese territory, and most of them are free of varroa ... for now.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If most of them are Varroa free then that state won't last long.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

I do not know Mark. It's a tough situation, no doubt, but for now they are holding up well. The Azores consists of nine islands. Two of these islands have varroa since at least 2003 due to a honeybee imports from Canada. All the other islands are free for now.

Can I advertising to the magnificent islands of the Azores? Thank you Barry:thumbsup:: http://www.visitazores.com/en


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Hi Ray
> What are the problems you are having with mites? Reinfestation?
> What was your treatment strategy in the last 4 months?
> What techniques you used to monitor the varroa rate in your hives ?


I don't measure mite counts, but watch the hive. It starts getting spotty sealed brood patterns, boardering on shotgun brood. The cappings get holes in them. The bees are hygienic so remove pupa.. The activity at the entrance slows greatly, foraging slows. The bees start looking dull. DWV starts, I get crawler bees, IAPV, and get hairless bees with stunted black abdomens. Dead bees in front of hive.

I treated with Apivar starting with some hives the last of July, the rest by middle August, and left the strips in until the first to middle of October. When I first put in the strips, the bees get overly shiny so I suspect the strips are coated with some kind of oil base Amitraz? not sure, but it reminds me of when I used to use EO's in the syrup years ago. within a couple weeks after putting in the strips, the bees get shiny, the brood clears up, get nice solid pattern again, the population starts picking up again. The foraging activity picks up again, nice activity at the entrance. The dead bees in front of hive and mortician services stop. 

I did leave the strips in longer than the instructions, and by the time I was removing them, and by the end of October and into the middle of November, the signs were showing again already. Spotty brood, lack of activity and foraging, dead bees starting in front of hives again. I just put in strips again a couple and three weeks ago. The bees are doing good again now, plus the weather is warming and there are more flight days. Today I see pollen coming in on all hives, so it seems that they all have made it so far. I'll be checking inside them around the first to middle February, to see just exactly it is that I have.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thank you Ray for your very thorough and clear answer. 

About the duration of treatment with Apivar ( which is what I use mostly ) read not long ago a French study that suggests leaving the strips between 10-12 weeks to increase their effectiveness. When I find it I'll put the link.

I have no idea if your area has a high density or low density apiaries but I leave this asbtract anyway: 

"The honey bee parasite Varroa destructor Anderson & Trueman can disperse and invade honey bee colonies by attaching to “drifting” and “robbing” honey bees that move into nonnatal colonies. We quantified the weekly invasion rates and the subsequent mite population growth from the end of July to November 2011 in 28 honey bee colonies kept in two apiaries that had high (HBD) and low (LBD) densities of neighboring colonies. At each apiary, half (seven) of the colonies were continuously treated with acaricides to kill all Varroa mites and thereby determine the invasion rates. The other group of colonies was only treated before the beginning of the experiment and then left untreated to record Varroa population growth until a final treatment in November. The numbers of bees and brood cells of all colonies were estimated according to the Liebefeld evaluation method. The invasion rates varied among individual colonies but revealed highly significant differences between the study sites. The average invasion rate per colony over the entire 3.5-mo period ranged from 266 to 1,171 mites at the HBD site compared with only 72 to 248 mites at the LBD apiary. In the untreated colonies, the Varroa population reached an average final infestation in November of 2,082 mites per colony (HBD) and 340 mites per colony (LBD). All colonies survived the winter; however, the higher infested colonies lost about three times more bees compared with the lower infested colonies. Therefore, mite invasion and late-year population growth must be considered more carefully for future treatment concepts in temperate regions." 

source http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1603/EC13381


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I have no idea if your area has a high density or low density apiaries...


Eduardo,
I would have to say that I live in a high amount of commercial hives area, especially in the fall. I'm in California and hives come in starting in October for over wintering for Almond pollination, starting the first of February. There is a large (I've heard up to 400 hives from the neighbors) commercial hive yard 1 - 2 miles to the south behind me, and there was a new yard this year in mid October of 125-150 hives a couple miles up the road to the east of me. So yes it could be from drift or robbing activities, I just have a hard time figuring that these commercial yards are not being treated. The larger yard behind me to the south is a Strachan Apiaries yard, I'm pretty sure. The new yard up the road is new this year, I'm guessing from out of state beekeeper over-wintering there for Almonds next month. 

in 2014 I used Apivar also, the first of July to the end of August, then again the middle of October to the end of November. I noticed the same thing back that year, that after about 5-6 weeks from putting in the strips, the bees start slowing down again. It could also be variations in the flows, as that is my mostly dearth time of year, but I do feed pollen sub and syrup then. Although, this year, I was slack and did not feed the pollen sub like I should have.

I start getting mite problems here by the end of May or first of June, and at that time of year, there are no hives close by as they are all out doing pollinations services. I've learned that I need to start some kind of treatments for winter or early spring, maybe again in late spring or early summer, because when I put on treatments, my hive entrance acivity picks up as well as increased foraging and honey storage. Then I need to do again in fall and then start over again for winter. Maybe this year will be better as it's the first year I've done any treatments starting at the end of December, when brood rearing is at it's lowest.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

A difficult scenario. 

Last year (2014) I had some problems with the effectiveness of apivar in late-summer treatment. What I did this year (2015) was re- adjust the straps to the breeding area , about half of the treatment period. From what I observed seems to me that this action significantly improves the effectiveness of treatment.
What will I do next late-summer treatment is the same and leaving the strips 12 weeks.

I leave a small translation of an excerpt from a French study on the validity of leaving strips apivar 10 to 12 weeks in the hives, in particular to combat re-infestations.

"Several studies have shown the varroa capacity to re- invade hives with variable frequency depending on the season : the extreme data published are 2 individuals per week spring [32] and 70 in summer . [22] If these are added recontaminations and that the colony still produces brood , they may jeopardize its winter survival . This is the reason for we recommend keeping the straps in hives for 10 weeks instead of 6 advocated. Reading Table II also indicates in this test , destruction from 2-42 mites per colony during the interval 6 weeks - 12 weeks . It is true that despite the precautions sockets, recontaminations were all the more likely that treated hives robbed untreated hives." in http://www.revmedvet.com/2007/RMV158_283_290.pdf pg. 288 (This quote is the result of a translation from French to English. I hope that the translation is understandable).

Ray that everything goes to you for the best with your bees.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

When I inspected my hives last weekend, I saw some
males and females mites on the bees. Some are older while some
are the younger mites. What I don't understand is why do 5-6 mites, mostly
females, are all clinging to this individual helpless newly emerged bee? They were
all over this poor bee that I saw. This incident I saw 3 times already from different
hive inspection. What I did was took a small sharp razor blade to cut all the mites in half on my nitrile glove.
Can anyone tell me why 5-6 female mites on a single young bee?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"When I inspected my hives last weekend, I saw some males and females mites on the bees. Some are older while some
are the younger mites."

Can you describe these "males and females mites"? How do you tell the age of an adult mite?

Web search "Varroa mite/male" and you will find a link to photo images of mites. I think you aught to give them a look, beepro.

Why were there many mites on a single bee? Probably because they were on the bees that they had been raised on. They were on her when the bee emerged from the comb and they hadn't left her yet.


----------



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

Hmmm, without knowing anything about mites, I'd say that you have a very serious mite problem.

Do you expect that hive to survive? Until spring?


----------



## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

There can be more than one breeding mite per capped cell, and typically they produce a male first (to mate) and then several daughters, which are the ones you saw on the bee.

Seeing numerous bees with that many visible mites would send me right the the container of MAQS -- a heavy infestation of mites will kill off the hive during the first cold weather.

Peter


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have never seen the mites in person at
the other bee yard. Seems like Iowa's mites are a 
lot bigger than mine from the pics posted here. Over here the
mites are a lot smaller on the bees. The mature mites are a dark
bronze to brown color while the young immature adult mites are the pinkish to
pale greenish color. The males adult mites have a rather flat body close
to the ground while the females mites have the fatter, rounder body carrying
the eggs inside I supposed. The males have a shell like almost hollow body and the females have
a body with more gut juice inside when cut in half with a small sharp razor blade.
And the females are a lot bigger almost 1.5 time than the males. So I recognized them by their sizes. 
Usually I saw more females mites than the males because they produce more. Maybe they live longer than
the males too. Who have measure how long the males and females mites live?
The mites on a single bee situation I described was the mature adult females
mites. They all got the mature brownish color so it is unlikely that they
all came from the same cell. If they were then there should be some
young adult mites there also. So just seeing the mature mites made me
curious of this situation. Looks like they have a way to congregate and
somehow communicate with each others on a single bee that was my suspicion.
I need to catch more mites and do more experiment to make my final conclusion.
To keep the mites under control at every hatch cycle I use my homemade oav
gadget under the hive to treat them. This is a mite experiment I'm doing while
studying on their behavior more. I need to keep some mites in the hives to
do this experiment all year long. If I kill off all the mites then the next strains that come
along might be more deadly to the bees. Believe it or not, I have been keeping
the mites in all winter long to measure the mite resistance of the bees. The big hive
have more mites than the small nuc hives for some reason.
Now is the Spring expansion phase in which I
expect more mites at each hatch cycle. My plan is to transfer these bees into a
55 gal plastic half-barrel hive to release the other mites that eat the varroas on a bottom
substrates hive set up. The end goal is to see whether or not these varroa killer
mites can live inside a half-barrel hive all year long to keep their population
under control. 
Peter is right that these females adult mites are from the other cells. But why
do they congregate like that on a single bee? As complex as the bee community 
in communication, I'm sure the varroas have a way to interact to each others as well.
One thing for sure the varroas have a way to gather on a single bee at the right
hatch cycle every 21 days. This is also the day that I do my hive inspection when
the weather permits it. Still a lot to learn about these smart mites.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How do you hold onto a mite so you can cut it in half with a tiny razor? And why would you do that anyway?


----------



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

Beepro, I'll be honest with you, after reading your last comment, I'm confused. 

I'll admit that I don't know squat about mites, the reason for this thread. There are several links posted in this thread about mites. 

But one thing you did mention above, "If I kill off all the mites then the next strains that come
along might be more deadly to the bees." ???

I was told early in this thread there is no such thing as a "mite free" hive. If you don't mind, share your secret to killing 100% of the mites in a honeybee hive.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, you are right that there is no such thing as killing 100%
of the mites in the hives. There is such thing as slowing their
infestation with a homemade oav gadget. At every hatch treatment
there will be fewer mites in the hives. Enough to allow the bees
to thrive and if you have enough grooming bees the mites will not
stand a chance to reinfest them. For sure other bees will bring in
more mites from the fields while foraging or somewhere out there.
Some will use grease patty all year long. Do a seach on 
grease patties with teatree oil on the net to give you some recipes.
Fighting the mites need to have different regimens so don't just use
one method alone. My way is to control the mites with the oav gadget and
allow the grooming bees to deal with the mites naturally. 
And catching the bee is easier than catching a small mite. I just
scoop up the mite from underneath between the bee's body when it is
the most unsuspecting. Once you disturbe the mite then it will run
fast at 30mph (mite's speed) and hide inside the bee. So catch it when
it is still on the bee's body with a small razor. Then you can either
crush it or flip it onto the nitrile glove to be cut in half. This is
how I learn more about the mites and to find out how much is the
infestation in the hives.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"So catch it when
it is still on the bee's body with a small razor. Then you can either
crush it or flip it onto the nitrile glove to be cut in half."

I find it hard to believe that you are cutting mites in half on a nitrile glove. The glove would be cut in the process.
And why you would cut mites with a razor is beyond comprehension.
If that's how you control mites, by catching them on bees, why don't you just crush the mite and the bee too, with a hive tool.

I find this whole thing unbelievable. But you are the "pro".


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Haa, ha! You can call me the "mite pro" from now on.
The 9 mil and 5 mil nitrile gloves can handle the gentle
cut just snap the mite in half and not cut it back and forth.
The mites I have are a bit soft so you can 
snap it in half easily with a sharp razor blade without
damaging the glove. This is a good way to learn about
them first hand. If you have time on a hive inspection
the next time you can try it too. The plump females are
easier to cut than the skinny flat males. Try it and see if
your experience is much the same as mine. Or maybe you
have the tougher mites there.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

All of the mites you are handling are females. The males are white and I don't think they ever leave the brood cell. Web search Varroa mite images and you will see what I am telling you about.

I still don't understand why you do what you are writing about, cutting mites with a razor. Or even how you actually do that. It would be nice if you could record a video and show us.


----------



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

Hope you don't mind me calling you "Mite Pro" also, but I'm still confused!

I've been reading about "fat, skinny, plump, smart, soft and tougher" mites, I don't understand. One would think that a mite is a mite, similar to a common housefly. 

I'm sure most of the folks on this forum have nearly the same intentions as myself. The only "good" mite, is a dead mite!


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Some but not all males do come out of the cells.
These are the younger males that you see though the
majority are females that I see. It is rather tempting
to not get rid of the mites when you see them on a hive inspection.
Rather than picking them off with a small tweezers, I
find it easier to just scoop them off with a small razor and at the
same time cut the mite in half. After the random inspection with an idea of
the mite load, I'll decide to treat them or not with my oav gadget.
Many beekeepers just treat their hives. I on the other hand would
like to learn more about the mites inside the hives. And because
I'm testing them on my homemade oav gadget under the hive, I want to 
know when is the free running mite population at their highest to
treat them. Knowing the answers will help to get rid of them better.
Also, because the oav gadget is an ongoing improvement and refining, I
want to find out where is the limit at. Now even in the snow and rainy
days I can treat my bees. Too bad we don't have the snow here to learn
more about the mite's behavior during the winter time when the bees are in cluster mode.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'd love to see a video of you "scoop[ing] them off with a small razor". My mind is having a hard time imagining that.

If you wait until the mites are at their peak to treat you are too late.


----------



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

Folks, I'm new to this forum, and I'll apologize up front if I offend anyone, but I'm going to call BS on "beepro" aka "Mite Pro". 

When I signed-up on this forum, I agreed to only share true facts or knowledge, and I expect the same from other members of the forum. I'll acknowledge that I don't know squat about mites, but all of this stuff about checking a hive for mites, catching bees and then plucking mites off with "a small tweezers", or "scoop" them off with some kind of scalpel, that's a tad bit too much! 

As soon as I post this comment, I'll "report" it to the moderators. I'll let them read the entire thread, and make their decision. I'm here to learn about beekeeping, but I'm not the type of person to put up with much BS. 

Facts and first hand information is what I'm looking for.


----------



## lprikockis (May 19, 2015)

I have to agree with redsnow on this one... If beepro is really able to scoop up mites from beneath a bee with a razor blade, then maybe he ought to be called 'bee ninja' or something.  I'd love to see some video of these micro-manipulations. As for me, I'd rather not let any of my hives get to the point where I can observe multiple mites clinging to a single bee if I can help it.


----------



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I will certainly be called heartless for this but... If I found a bee with all those mites on it, I would kill it and the mites on it somewhere away from the hive. With that many mites, the bee is probably loaded with viruses and putting it back in the hive is asking for the diseases to get spread.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

redsnow said:


> Folks, I'm new to this forum, and I'll apologize up front if I offend anyone, but I'm going to call BS on "beepro" aka "Mite Pro".


RS....... there are some folks on BS (as in any other forum) that you just have to learn to ignore..... 
Mostly good stuff here........


----------



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

I agree there are lots of good stuff here, good solid information, from experienced beekeepers. And I sincerely appreciate all of you taking the time to answer my "nimrod" questions. I'll be honest, I don't know much about honeybees. During the last couple of weeks that I've been a member of this forum, I've spent at least an hour per day just reading. And if I don't understand, I'll ask questions. 

And I thank all of you for you're patience, answering "stupid" questions. But there isn't anything such as a stupid question! I'm just trying to learn.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Facing many obstacles when I started beekeeping 4 years ago, I know nothing about bees and mites. I started reading all summer long into late winter of the out dated posts on BS hoping to learn something. And most importantly to
get the big picture of what beekeeping is all about. 
After 3 years of no bee growth affected by the mites crashing my hives, last
year I started some bees and mites experiment. During this process I have
found a way to control the mites using my homemade ova gadget inspired by
a you tube video of a beekeeper burning some type of mite strips under his
hives. See my vid here on the oav gadget at work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D2vLtiF2fI
Using the oav gadget, it is good enough to keep the mites population low to not crash the hives
anymore while giving me enough time to collect some mites and bees relationship
data. It is not what your mind imagine that the mite loads are extremely high
inside the hives. Matter of fact they are extremely low to cause any excessive damage that my bees are still growing now. 
Thank goodness to this oav gadget invention that is still in its refining/perfecting stage now.
Like dudelt said,


dudelt said:


> I will certainly be called heartless for this but... If I found a bee with all those mites on it, I would kill it ....


I don't want to kill of an innocent bee especially the
big fat nurse bees (that the mites are mostly on) loaded with the good stuffs inside that I used a razor blade to scoop off one single mite to get rid of it. And then return the bee back to the hive on the spot still alive. This to me is the most humane way but not to the mites when cutting it in half. Yes, it is easier to kill of the bees and mites too by crushing them all at
the same time. But this is not my way of dealing with the mites and killing
of innocent bees when it is not necessary. I have the time and patience to do so all summer long last year, 2015. During this process of picking off the mites at every hatch cycle I have learn a lot about the mites and bees interaction within the hives. The case of 5-6 female mites clinging to one innocent newly hatched young bee was what confused me the most. I have no answer yet only to experiment more to find out about the mites' true nature over time. For sure this new year I will not let my bees to crash anymore because of the 
mites and the diseases that they carry. I have posted many recent bee pics of my hives through out BS to show they are still alive and expanding with the mites inside. Bees still expanding, Italians hive first.
I'm not saying that you have to follow my process to cut the mites up with a
sharp razor blade. Learning to do so effectively is not that easy for some beekeepers either. It is only me to learn something about them in 
doing so. You can just follow the rest of the beekeepers here to treat or not to treat if you want to.
How to keep the mites at bay and in what time frame is the best to do so using what
method for the lowest cost in a least harmful and organic way possible with the most effective delivery outcome? To get the answer to the many questions I have you have to find out. And in what way is better other than to experienced it yourself first hand by getting closer to the mites and bees. To conquer the mites you have to get closer to them. I did!


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Content Warning*

]This video may be inappropriate for some users.
By confirming, you agree that this warning will no longer be shown in the future.
I understand and wish to proceed



With a warning like that I'm not likely to proceed. And I am an adult. I think.

You said you Posted pictures of hives. How about Posting a picture of your razor and tweezers.

How much time do you spend doing the things you say you do?


----------



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

From time to time my Mom would say: "There must be something in the water out there." 

I watched his video it's ok, not sure why it has that warning?


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Warning is good.
It will caution the one handling
the oxalis acid. This is an experiment using
another method to deliver the oav into the hives.
Anything that is not meant for the little kids should
have a warning I think. For the adults I don't worry as
they are smart enough to do a thorough research before 
attempting anything to do with the chemicals. OAV can be
dangerous if mishandled during the process.
On every hive inspection like today, I will have a small
razor ready in case I see a big fat female mite that I need
to get rid of. When the infestation is too severe I will use the
oav gadget the next time. Last summer though I spent the entire summer
picking out the mites. After that the oav gadget invention take care of
the majority of the free running mites. It is very safe to use
the oav gadget now that I don't use a gas mask anymore because everything happens
inside the hives. Besides, it is only a 2 minutes burn time so in case it
gets out of hands, that I don't see yet, I'm sure I can hold my breath that long to get out of the
scene on an open flat ground. My safety first, always!


----------



## redsnow (Dec 26, 2015)

I agree, warning is good!

By the same token, I feel obligated to warn the members of the forum (especially the younger members) to refrain from running around the bee yard with a scalpel in their hands! 

Beepro, you've mentioned your OAV gadget several times, maybe you'd like to start a new thread, and tell us a little bit more. I think you said you're making adjustments or refining the contraption. I'll be glad to "trouble shoot" for you, and I'm sure lots of others will also.

Honestly, I just don't believe the process of catching, visually inspecting bees, and the "tweezer/razor-knife/scalpel method" will ever rid the world's beekeepers of mites! 

(I don't want to drag the thread off track anymore than it is already, but I seriously doubt that you can hold your breath for 120 seconds!) Give it a try.


----------

