# Odfrank's Observations - Bees Inhabiting Potential Nesting Sites



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mr Collins, .. Six weeks ago I had 4 deep supers sitting on a pallet near the barn door. 2 boxes high, 2 boxes wide. I had placed them there waiting to put them out as swarm boxes. Each contained 2 old drawn brood combs and one frame foundation. I noticed lots of bees visiting the box on the top right. Over the next few days there were more bees, in fact so many that I thought a swarm had moved in and I opened the box only to find about 100 bees and considerable fighting taking place. I thought they may all be robbers and fighting over the old comb. But, they acted more like scouts than robbers. This behavior went on for about a week. I thought it odd that they would fight over the box on the top right, and completely ignore the other three boxes. 

Then, one morning I noticed a swarm had moved into the box on the top left. All the activity had been in the box on the top right, but the swarm moved into the top left. No more activity in the box on the top right. Hasn't been any since. I did not put the three boxes out. They are still sitting there.

I left the swarm there for a couple of weeks, then moved them about 4 miles to a friends garden, and when the garden season is over, I will move to one of my yards.

cchoganjr


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have three bait hives hosts complaining to me that the bait boxes at their homes have been heavily scouted for the last few weeks but no swarms arrive. The last bait catch I know of was 5/21. So this scouting has gone on for a month since the last catch. But I have caught several swarms manually since 5/21, one this morning.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I have two dead-outs and a swarm trap here in the yard.

I got one swarm on May 31. Then nothing. Suddenly Tuesday morning, I saw a few bees around the trap. By noon there were tons of bees at the trap and the dead-outs, and I thought I'd see another swarm before the end of the day. For two days since, there's been steady robbing of the dead-outs and yet still steady activity in the swarm trap. We shall see.

Do you guys get swarms if traps are in the sun? I'm wondering if some of mine get too hot.

Adam


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Odfrank has posted in the past about how he has seen bees guarding and fighting over nesting sites - sometimes weeks in advance of swarming. His posts are the only thing I've read that suggested that behavior....


 I did not have many chances, but, yes, I saw how bees visited "potential" home (nuc) for quite a while and than occupied it. The question was is it the same bees or not? In my case, I am quite sure that the bees were from the same hive, but I do not know if "first" visitors were the part of swarm preparation? At that time, I was thinking that it was robbing behavior. The swarm was so easy, they acted like they know what they are doing - they just fly from the hive to the new location 10 feet away (on my deck) and marched inside the box. Everything was over in 20 min. Similarly, another swarm (not mine) marched into retired old box used to keep extra frames. In both cases, it was an impression, that they did know where they are going.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Do you guys get swarms if traps are in the sun? I'm wondering if some of mine get too hot.


Almost all of mine are in the direct sun.

cchoganjr


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I have two swarm traps in my yard, and I haven't seen fighting. I have noticed in previous years that interest in these boxes occurs before a swarm issues, and so I think of them as swarm indicators. No bees have shown any interest this year.


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## Northwest PA Beekeeper (Mar 28, 2012)

It would actually make sense that the bees start scouting BEFORE they swarm. The hive knows they are going to swarm at some point - queen cells have been made. It would make more sense that they scout ahead of time rather than swarm and then start looking.

That might explain why sometimes swarms show up only to fly away a short time later. They had already prescouted beforehand, and once they swarmed and realized all was well and the queen was with them - they take off for their new home that was previously scouted out.

Don't know what to say about the swarms that came out and then cluster for days on end and eventually start building comb right there. Is that a case of they looked and couldn't find anything, or they looked and checked out sites but couldn't make up their minds so just started building comb right where they cluster?


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

I was watching this science show for kids the other night. Turned out to be very interesting, this guy was studying bee swarms. He wentn to a remote island that had no bees on it. He then set up two swarm traps. One had a small space like a nuc and a large entrance. The other had a space about the size of a ten frame and a small entrance. He had the swarm where he could observe them. One hive he marked with a blue tag, the other a yellow. He then stood at the blue hive and marked the bees blue as they entered. Did the same at the yellow. Back at the swarm there was a blue bee dancing and a yellow bee dancing. Each one was trying to convince the crowd to follow it. Soon the blue (large space small opening) began to outnumber. Then the blue bee would go over and headbut the other one as if to tell him to shut up he lost. After a few blows it gave up and they swarmed into the blue hive. Cool to watch, wish I could remember the show? Think the guys name was Thomas Seely?


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

beehonest said:


> ...Think the guys name was Thomas Seely?



Thomas D. Seeley. His latest book is called Honeybee Democracy and it's the gold standard on swarming. 

Here's a talk he gave at Cornell on his work:

http://www.cornell.edu/video/tom-seeley-honeybee-democracy

Adam


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

The one thing I wish Tom had done in his work was to make some boxes long horizontally and some narrow and vertical, to see if he could settle that arguement - which would the bees choose?

Adam


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## Connor (Jul 1, 2010)

I wonder sometimes if scouts don't get left behind when a swarm moves while they are out and the left behind scouts just return to whatever place they hope the swarm went to. I also think swarms must pre-scout sometimes because I have seen swarms land close to traps that are no where near an established colony. Almost like they are thinking that trap is the one but not totally sure yet but want to be close anyway. A swarm I caught the other day was close to one of my traps but in a tree when I went to check it. I hived em up but it looks like about 100 bees are so have moved into the trap they were near now and I am betting they were returning scouts left behind after I stole their swarm. Perhaps the LGO gives them a sense of not being abandoned enough for them to stay until the end rather than returning to the original hive? This may also work if the scouts are hitting one of your traps but in the mean time someone comes along and takes the swarm, perhaps they move in to whatever trap had the most support not knowing what else to do.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> The one thing I wish Tom had done in his work was to make some boxes long horizontally and some narrow and vertical, to see if he could settle that arguement - which would the bees choose?
> 
> Adam


Adam, why you do not want to try? It should be fun!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Seeley had a controlled environment on an island with no bees on it. I would love to see the swarm trap experiment being done with more reasonable size traps. He had a 10, 40 and 100 liter trap. So of course the godilocks trap seemed the most appropriate in size. I would like to see it with 20, 30 and 40 liter traps.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I've got bees fighting and wrestling all over the front of swarm traps this morning. Lots of frantic activity... We shall see...

Yes, Seeley had access to the controlled environment that is so essential to good science. Believe me, I have a few ideas that I'd love to work out through proper testing, but doing so is a major undertaking. Plus there's the fact that I am not a scientist, or educated in entomology, which would likely make any results I came up with somewhat suspect...

Adam


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Connor said:


> I wonder sometimes if scouts don't get left behind when a swarm moves while they are out and the left behind scouts just return to whatever place they hope the swarm went to. I also think swarms must pre-scout sometimes because I have seen swarms land close to traps that are no where near an established colony. Almost like they are thinking that trap is the one but not totally sure yet but want to be close anyway. A swarm I caught the other day was close to one of my traps but in a tree when I went to check it. I hived em up but it looks like about 100 bees are so have moved into the trap they were near now and I am betting they were returning scouts left behind after I stole their swarm. Perhaps the LGO gives them a sense of not being abandoned enough for them to stay until the end rather than returning to the original hive? This may also work if the scouts are hitting one of your traps but in the mean time someone comes along and takes the swarm, perhaps they move in to whatever trap had the most support not knowing what else to do.




I think scouts may sometimes get left behind, they may be forragers too, I went out on a swarm call and when I got there, there were only about 200 bees left, I set a trap close by anyways in case an after swarm came since they often land in the same spot, and I checked on it 2 weeks later and they there were only about 100 bees left clusted on the post. I had another that I caught the swarm on and had all bout about 5-6 bees in the box when I closed it up and took it home, the next day the landowner said there were a couple hundred bees still in the tree. So I don't know if these are scouts returning, or forragers, I would assume that forragers will get nectar and bring it back to the cluster to pass around if they are there for very long.


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## Talvez (Jun 12, 2013)

Not that I have much experience but I too had activity at one of my traps this year and this discussion sure matches up with what I saw. I estimated 1-2 dozen bees actively going in and out of my trap for most part of a week. At times I would seed a lull in the activity but as soon as a bee would show up one would come out of the entrance and check it out. I left on vacation for 4 days expecting to see a full trap when I got back but have not seen a single bee since. I assumed they found a better price somewhere else. Now I'm thinking they had scouted the box and were defending it but for some reason their loan request was rejected. Perhaps the swarm when issued got picked up by someone else.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I have twice pulled traps that had so much activity that I thought they were occupied (seems one per year fools me).
Tom’s article was in the National Geo for kids (I was reading it at the middle school library prior to award ceremony to start).


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## Providence Hills (May 13, 2013)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Almost all of mine are in the direct sun.
> 
> cchoganjr


I have had 4 in the past two weeks with 2 of them yesterday. Two were in Warre hives - one with one box and one with two boxes. The other two were caught in boxes with the Lagstrom deminsions. One box was in the full sun the other three were facing the south/southeast with timber on the west side of the boxes for shade.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Neither was Randy Oliver.



Adam Foster Collins said:


> Plus there's the fact that I am not a scientist, or educated in entomology, which would likely make any results I came up with somewhat suspect...
> 
> Adam


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

But he was before he started publishing findings on bees:

From his site:

"I started keeping bees as a hobbyist in 1967, and then went on to get university degrees in biological sciences, specializing in entomology".

That qualification give him additional credibility.

Adam


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

shannonswyatt said:


> Seeley had a controlled environment on an island with no bees on it...


 I see


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> ...
> "I started keeping bees as a hobbyist in 1967, and then went on to get university degrees in biological sciences, specializing in entomology"...


 I am not sure about entomology passage. His highest degree is M.S. in Fisheries Biology from Humboldt State... Bachelor in Biology from UC Irvine.

Apparently, he is Häagen-Dazs® Ice Cream Bee Board Member
http://www.breakingnews.org/haagendazs/bee_board.html

Interestingly, I was not able to find Entomology Department in UC Irvine, where he supposed to have "university degrees in biological sciences, specializing in entomology"... May be, they had something in his time ? The closest Entomology Department is UC Riverside and famous UC Davis.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

I think Seeley came to the conclusion the bees chose the "best qualified" home amongst the choices. I had a swarm move into an empty double deep hive. That would be on the 80 liter side. 40 more than his findings. Everything else must have been to their liking. One of his swarms was investigating a chimney pipe at a house on that island instead of his bait boxes. 
I have caught swarms in bait boxes that are ten frame deep Langs, and double deep five frame nucs stacked. (five on top of five) I had a swarm scout an eight frame that I would have bet money they were going to move in. Two days later no activity. I had one of my double stacks that was a little off on dimensions. Four over four. Had a swarm cluster on the bottom of the box. This was at a friends house and I had already caught one swarm there. I was thinking this an afterswarm. He called me and by the time I got there, 30 min. later, they were gone. They had to be there a day or so as there was a small piece of comb. Size just might matter. LOL
Rick


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bees can be finicky. I have had swarms move into a pallet of 60 shallow supers. I have had swarms which were gathered into two deep boxes and then leave for somewhere else. I have shaken swarms down off of a branch of two foot high cedar tree only to go back where I shook them down from, twice. So, bees will do whatever they please. I don't see any of the observations mentioned here as all that unusual or surprising. Interesting though.

Keep track of where you find swarms lighting. Chances are next years swarms may light there too. I had two swarm calls from the same guy this year w/ two swarms gathered on the same branch at different times, about a week apart. Don't know where the parent hive is.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Rick 1456 said:


> I think Seeley came to the conclusion the bees chose the "best qualified" home amongst the choices. r liking.


If that was Seeley's conclusion, I blew it out of the water today. At Carolyn Monroe's yard, I had 6 swarm boxes withing 50 yards. As I was checking bees today, I noticed that a swarm had moved into one of the boxes, and I must say the worst one. I opened the top to see how many were in the box and if they had dropped comb from the migratory top. They had not dropped comb, and were all working on the two brood combs and the one foundation that I put in all swarm boxes. To my surprise, there was a mouse nest in the vacant part of the swarm box, and the vacant space was two inches deep in leaves, hickory nuts, debris, twigs, etc. 

Seeing this, I decided I should check the other swarm boxes and add a couple drops of LGO. The other boxes were cleaner, better boxes. All were well used, 10 frame Langs, with two brood combs and one foundation comb started agains an outside wall.

Maybe it was a ley line or good Chee,(chi,qi). Who knows. All I know is, it was not the best box, not even close. Not by my standards that is , but perhaps it was to the bees.

cchoganjr


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Not by my standards that is , but perhaps it was to the bees.

That's the ticket!!! Perhaps they were "grunge" bees LOL I got no problem with putting sticks, leaves, and a couple acorns in the bait box, but I doubt I could get a mouse to stay.  What can you do?
Rick


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Rick 1456... Just a thought, but, what if we market a used mouse nest, sticks, leaves, and a couple of acorns for people to put in bait boxes. We have emperical proof that it works. Guarantee you we would sell a few bags.

I just go with the flow. I once thought I would try to figgure out what bees wanted and how they wanted it. WRONG... I will never live that long.

cchoganjr


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

100% with ya. It's fun speculating though. Do you think Mossy Oak would allow a copy right infringement? " Mossy Oak Honey Bee Bait Box Additive." Bees like a natural carpet in their new home. LOL If not, there's Cabelas, and Pro Bass. Hey, those Duck Guys might be interested. "Commander Swarm Box Mix." We can add the LGO to that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sorry LOL I get carried away at times. So, what Island you looking to buy?
Rick


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I like Australia.... Big Island.

While we can both laugh at my ridiculous post about selling a mouse nest and a few acorns, I guarantee, if we put that in a plastic bag, a fancy header, and a testimonial, from a couple of beekeepers, we could sell it.

I have invented a couple of items, jig for cutting hand hold on bee boxes with Skil Saw, and a method to trap bees from trees and buildings, but, I have never charged anyone for info and design for them. My reward is from helping other beekeepers.

So, if any of you newbees out there want to know how to attract a swarm to your swarm box, I will tell you what you need. You need to contact odfrank. HA!!!

cchoganjr


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Think we will make that much the first year? 
I do not doubt it. Some of the stuff out there Hope to get a chance to use your trap out technique some day.
Thanks
Rick


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I've been watching swarm traps on my front porch for 5 straight days now. There has been so much activity that they look like swarms have moved in. But it doesn't increase. It appears to be a steady number with say, 20 to 30 or so bees constantly in and around each trap. The basically inhabit the hives, protect them and excitedly run in and around the the entrances. Sometimes a single bee will sort of "buzz-run" through the group of bees around the entrance. It's all pretty high-energy, but hasn't yet produced a swarm.

At night, they're empty.

I wonder if they do this when queen cells are being constructed or something. If I get another swarm, it will be interesting to see how many days after they began to so such consistent interest did the swarm actually appear.

They're very excited and active. Clearly more going on than I understand. They're using a lot of energy that isn't going into collecting nectar and pollen.

Adam


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## EASYBEES (Mar 3, 2013)

I have noticed in my recent bait catches that yes sun does make a difference. Had a bait hive in a tree in the wide open with no sun, but by it being in the open still had a lot of light no takers. Had another in a good spot in a fence row the row ran north to south caught one about a month ago, but now as the year has progressed the box is taking on the evening sun only a couple of hours and I also repositioned the box so the entrance would not be in the sun no takers. I have discovered the best places to put bait hives are in fence rows running east to west with very minimal morning sun and I mean very minimal. Thus far I have caught 3 swarms this month 2 appox. 4-6# and 1 close to 10# or enough to a medium to give them a little more room. So to answer to complete your thought I would say no sun if possible on what I have observed it gets to hot. Good luck.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I am of the thought that the sun/shade debate must take the climate into consideration. I live in a cool climate and catch lots of baits in full sun. But I am in agreement that morning sun / afternoon shade is better, especially in a hot climate. Because I avoid facing hives into the wind, most of mine face from north to south because our winds come from the west/southwest.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Been driving my truck to work with my bee gear in it. I noticed at lunch that I had bees in the back of the topper so opened it up. After work it was really swarming. Closed the topper when I got out of the driveway. Went shopping and put a bike it the back and it was getting bad. Got home and it was ridiculous. Caught a swarm in a baited trap in my truck at lunch! I think I left half them at Wal-Mart and work. Maybe I am onto something, I did poor trapping this year in the trees (mostly because our swarming was so bad I took all my traps down after running out of deeps).


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Maybe everyone should make their swarm bait hives mobile. Put them on trains, 18 wheelers, buses, public transportation vehicles, travel trailors, boats, etc.. If the bees don't come to your swarm bait hives where you put them, then, move them around.

You might be on to something here.

cchoganjr


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

An update:

I've been watching bees on the swarm traps on my front porch (to be clear, I have a single deep swarm trap, and two stacked empty deeps that I put lids and bottoms on and a single empty comb in, as well as a tbh with a couple of empty combs - I figure, if I'm storing them, they might as well act as traps. So in effect, there are three traps of different sizes and shapes).

I have seen a steady supply of bees at these boxes since June 20 or 21. The bees were easy to identity, as they are noticeably black in color compared to most bees around here. The bees have been very active; so much so that you would think a swarm had moved into each from the number of bees around the traps. And they guarded against other bees trying to come in. We've had a lot of rain recently, and during those times, the bees would vanish.

After 5 days of rain, sun returned yesterday, and there were more bees than ever. Another colony discovered two dead-outs I have on the property and robbing got heavy there. These bees were very orange and easy to tell from the black ones. Some of these orange bees tried to get into the traps, and there was tons of fighting. The orange bees became extremely numerous, and over the course of the day, I noticed that the focus of the black bees (which had been at all three traps, but mainly at the stack of two deeps with a lid) had moved to focus on the single deep swarm trap a few feet away. It had only one small entrance, (where the other had two bigger ones) and was easier to defend. I counted 31 dead bees on the porch floor at the end of the day, and all boxes were empty at night. I opened them to check.

Today I woke to find that the black bees finally swarmed and took up residence in the single deep swarm trap. The orange bees are still robbing the dead-outs and checking out the other empty boxes.

Now, these are of course just observations, but this experience, combined with others in previous years, makes me feel that what Odfrank has observed is true to what I'm seeing. From this I can infer that:

*Bees are aware that they are going to swarm in the future, and begin to locate, prepare (through cleaning at least, which is what I have observed) and will defend potential nest sites to the point of killing other bees - up to two weeks in advance of swarming.*

That time may be even longer, but so far, I have observed two weeks twice. Last year, it went for two weeks with thorough cleaning of the bait comb and then suddenly stopped at the two week point. I assume they swarmed to another location. Therefore I can also assert that:

*Just because bees are inhabiting, cleaning and defending a potential nest site, it doesn't mean they aren't also considering other sites, or preparing and defending others. *

In my case, the bees were inhabiting and defending three, then under great pressure, pulled back to one.

Lastly:

*The presence of many many bees at your swarm traps is a good sign. Bees killing each other also shows strong interest, but not definitive. You could have scores of bees for weeks without a swarm materializing. Bottom line - it ain't over 'til "the fat lady" moves in.*

These are my observations, and I offer them here for perspective in analyzing your own.

Adam


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## Providence Hills (May 13, 2013)

Thanks, Adam, appreciate you sharing that and your insight.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I brought in all my traps today, I need the combs for divides. Two ten frame traps that had been scouted for weeks both had about ten bees living inside.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I'm seeing that in one of mine as well. I watched one with about 5 bees that were there for a while, but they were just sitting there. I think those were bees who were scouts for a swarm that went somewhere else, and they lost contact somehow. Maybe the swarm moved while these bees were still investigating this trap, or on their way to this trap. Whatever the case may be, they just camped out in the trap and weren't very active.

Later, new bees began to get interested in the trap, and these few bees tried to defend it. Eventually they were killed off by investigating bees.

Adam


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks for the observations in this thread. They have been very informative and helpful.

I have been seeing behavior in and around some empty, but previously used, equipment that struck me as scouting. It seems a bit early but I thought maybe they were planning for the future. (My bees are in the middle of their first major brood-up of the spring and no drones around yet.) The scouting is just up to a few bees at a time and I am pretty sure they aren't from my hives. They are pretty much black whereas one of mine is an old gold and the other leather colored. They also fly away over my house which is the opposite direction from my hives. When they fly away they circle first like they are trying to fix the location. I added Q-Tips with queen juice and LGO around midday and interest seemed to amp up a little. I've got a few old combs in the one nuc that is getting the most interest, none in the other but it is getting a little traffic too. I had my first hive inside replacing the screened bottom with a solid one and putting new legs on it. I got that done, put it back out today,and threw some lure in for the heck of it. The other two are 10 and 8 bar KTBH nucs so they are pretty small. I plan to take the hive out to a friends place and set it up there in a week or two but maybe I should wait at least two weeks (based on what Adam observed) to see if anything wants a bigger home. I was just going to bait it there anyway, with the plan to install an early split if no swarms start homesteading.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have been seeing behavior in and around some empty, but previously used, equipment that struck me as scouting. It seems a bit early but I thought maybe they were planning for the future.

If you think about it, the bees seem to know everything in a 1 ½ mile radius and most things within a 2 mile radius. I think you are correct that they are making note of things for the future when you see an occasional bee check out a bait hive. When you start to see much activity, I think they are actually trying to make a decision.


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Have you noticed this at your swarm traps?


I have noticed something like what you are describing. I have also had large numbers of scouts stay overnight in some of the traps before. The first year I trapped I thought this was just a fluke, but I have observed it many times now. That's why I don't move traps until there is pollen entering. 

I wrote something about this behavior in a post on 5/17/2012.
http://letmbee.com/2012/05/17/new-observation-on-swarming-behavior/

There is still much to bees that we don't understand.... Good thing they know what they're doing......


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