# Sticky  OTS - Treatment Free



## Swarmhunter

I've been studying Mels OTS System for a couple of years searching for the silver bullet for TF. I went to Treating 2 years ago because I was losing the majority of my hives every year, but I actually would love to keep everything TF. I did some notching last year and it worked great. Those hives were treated last year in Aug and are alive this Spring. I've spent a lot of time studying Mels theories on requeening in May and July and why this leads the mites to self distruct. I also realize he's selling bees not honey.
My question is DOES IT ACTUALLY WORK?
I also realize the labor intensity of the system.
Would love to hear from people actually using the system.
Jerry


----------



## FlowerPlanter

IMO this will help but you also need to have resistant stock. The degree of the resistance and your genetic footprint will determine success. 

Basically it boils down to a brood break at a critical time for the mites.

Continually raising new open mated queens enables you quickly gain local genes in your area, if these genes are survivors they will integrate into your apiary.


----------



## DaisyNJ

I dont know about "self destruct" or "silver bullet". Brood breaks present opportunity to curb mite growth. But brood breaks come at the expense of bee population growth too. 

And any positive gain depends on type of requeening. If you just replace queen with new laying queen, I dont see how that can help. And there are number of ways to requeen, OTS being one of them. 

I personally think this is just ONE tool in the toolbox.


----------



## DaisyNJ

Then there are 

* Genetics
* Nutrition
* Virus types prevalent locally 
* Environmental Stress factors (pesticides etc)


----------



## JWChesnut

Continually raising open-mated queens increases the velocity with which the bees revert to the background population "mean". These are likely to be more swarmy, more aggressive, and less productive than the queens raised under controlled selection.

Very swarmy bees exhibit considerable "resistance" to Varroa on a population scale (due to constant repopulation). However, if this trait has survival advantage, it will disencourage more "sophisticated" traits such as VSH or "ankle-biting". Evolution is a cruel mistress, and the sloppy, easy solution (excess swarminess) has far lower entropy than a recessive trait based on 20 loci. 

There is a reason VSH is maintained with artificial insemination from selection of 1 in 500 colonies. To expect open mated queens to converge on the same solution is belief in "magic".


----------



## Graperunner

I use small cell and have had good results. 
I started to use OTS to build numbers and
I see my overwinter survival get even better
So now I use both.


----------



## Steve in PA

JWChesnut said:


> Continually raising open-mated queens increases the velocity with which the bees revert to the background population "mean". These are likely to be more swarmy, more aggressive, and less productive than the queens raised under controlled selection.
> 
> Very swarmy bees exhibit considerable "resistance" to Varroa on a population scale (due to constant repopulation). However, if this trait has survival advantage, it will disencourage more "sophisticated" traits such as VSH or "ankle-biting". Evolution is a cruel mistress, and the sloppy, easy solution (excess swarminess) has far lower entropy than a recessive trait based on 20 loci.
> 
> There is a reason VSH is maintained with artificial insemination from selection of 1 in 500 colonies. To expect open mated queens to converge on the same solution is belief in "magic".


I've been giving thought to something similar. Studies have show that feral bees and commercial bees are very different. From the Scientific Beekeeping website a quoted study showing the genetic differences between the two populations:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/scibeeimages/fig-0411.jpg

A quick glance looks to me like feral bees and commercial bees are as different as a Great Dane and a Poodle.

But, if the beek was using those open mated queens and selecting for known traits what would be the result? Would his/her bees never drift too far from commercial genetics?


----------



## Swarmhunter

Any information from somebody who is actually doing it?
Jerry


----------



## Swarmhunter

I can't believe that this treatment free group, that has a way to pretty much eliminate mite treatments -(OTS) doesn't have anybody using this method.
I sure like to hear from you.
Jerry


----------



## msl

Steve in PA said:


> But, if the beek was using those open mated queens and selecting for known traits what would be the result? Would his/her bees never drift too far from commercial genetics?


I would argue in most places they would drift too deep into undesirable commercial traits 



Swarmhunter said:


> I can't believe that this treatment free group, that has a way to pretty much eliminate mite treatments -(OTS) doesn't have anybody using this method.


there are mostly 2 types of TF fokes in this fourm...those who are good beekeepers and have a location that has made it fairly easy for them... and those who see TF as do nothing bee keeping, sit back and see if your bees will make it
to one set OTS is not needed, to the other its too much work/woodware or is against doctrine

Tom Seeley has a study running on something simunlar to OTS https://mysare.sare.org/sare_project/fne16-840/?page=annual&y=2016 I cant wait to see his spring/summer mite counts for this year


----------



## squarepeg

my personal opinion on using frequent ots or any other method of perpetual splitting as a means of mite control is that doing so isn't really practical to the typical beekeeper desiring to make a honey crop.

my approach is to not split any colonies that have a decent shot at providing me with harvestable honey. i do sometimes split colonies for nuc production that have a poor track record with respect to swarminess or poor production or both, in order to make increase and requeen from the more promising stock.

i would be hesitant to purchase bees advertised as 'treatment free' if they are coming from an operation that uses perpetual splitting for mite control and not having colonies that have demonstrated multiple year survivability and productivity without being split.


----------



## Swarmhunter

I wondered whether OTS was going to qualify for treatment free - I guess I got my answer.


----------



## Nordak

I've been thinking about OTS in the context of it's application and how it relates to some of what msl stated on the first group of beekeepers he mentioned, though I think his categorization of the TF beekeepers here is a bit presumptive. I'd say there is quite a varied group of folks. Back to the point.

OTS, and I'm no expert here, does one thing quite well, and that is to create a brood break at critical times when mite build up is nearing peak level, considering that the beekeeper is fine tuning those critical breaks to his locale. Many of the beekeepers that fit into category one that msl referred to are living in areas where the bees respond to dearth situations, coinciding with near peak bee populations by shutting down brood rearing and implementing their own break(s). This is a time when the bees begin preemptive drone culling and the brood nests start shrinking. Here it begins around late June and continues through August, with a trickle coming through from the occasional bloom here and there. My belief is that the combination of this natural brood break coinciding with building mite/bee populations and subsequent dearth is a huge reason for the success of many folks, particularly in the south. Is that enough alone? I don't believe so. I think it also takes some bees that are tolerant/resistant/adapted to mites/viruses for outright success. 

With all that said, I think OTS could be of huge benefit to someone who can solve that puzzle in an area where maybe that natural cycle doesn't occur.


----------



## 1102009

Nordak said:


> I've been thinking about OTS in the context of it's application and how it relates to some of what msl stated on the first group of beekeepers he mentioned, though I think his categorization of the TF beekeepers here is a bit presumptive. I'd say there is quite a varied group of folks. Back to the point.
> 
> OTS, and I'm no expert here, does one thing quite well, and that is to create a brood break at critical times when mite build up is nearing peak level, considering that the beekeeper is fine tuning those critical breaks to his locale. Many of the beekeepers that fit into category one that msl referred to are living in areas where the bees respond to dearth situations, coinciding with near peak bee populations by shutting down brood rearing and implementing their own break(s). This is a time when the bees begin preemptive drone culling and the brood nests start shrinking. Here it begins around late June and continues through August, with a trickle coming through from the occasional bloom here and there. My belief is that the combination of this natural brood break coinciding with building mite/bee populations and subsequent dearth is a huge reason for the success of many folks, particularly in the south. Is that enough alone? I don't believe so. I think it also takes some bees that are tolerant/resistant/adapted to mites/viruses for outright success.
> 
> With all that said, I think OTS could be of huge benefit to someone who can solve that puzzle in an area where maybe that natural cycle doesn't occur.


:thumbsup:


----------



## Swarmhunter

Nordak- That sheds a whole different light on the way I look at the opinions from different areas of the country. It was easy for me to project the method into my beekeeping area. We have a flow of one kind or another(unless we get an extended drought) from the 1st of May thru the 1st of October. Increases here would be made in May and 1st week of July, with a good basswood flow in July.
I thank all of you for your ideas and opinions. Next Winter I'll let you know how it worked out for me.
Jerry


----------



## squarepeg

i'm looking forward to reading about your experience swarmhunter, thanks for posting here.

i believe keeping a handful of full sized established colonies that don't get split to provide you with some marketable honey and servce as 'proving grounds' for your stock selection with respect to honey production and heartiness.

sales could get especially robust when you can brag about the buyer's queen mother without lying or exaggerating. 

jmho, if the business model is predicated on the selling of bees and as the market becomes more savey, buyers are going to be looking for colonies derived from colonies that have to some degree proven themselves under the conditions that the buyer intends to use them.

even if just for personal use, gaining the skills to successfully propagate more colonies from one's own stock may not be for everybody, but no one would deny that the return on investment is there.


----------



## aunt betty

To do OTS the right way here means doing it on or around June 20. 
Last season I had plans on doing OTS but by the time June 20 arrived I'd already been forced to do splits on most every hive. 
I find it dumb to replace queens that just got mated 4-8 weeks earlier. 
When I get to the point where I can control each and every hive until June 20 I'll give OTS a shot but until then I'm letting the bees make all the split decisions. In other words when I get swarm cells I split, sometimes aggressively. 
It's not exactly the best strategy but it is better than letting them swarm.


----------



## msl

> though I think his categorization of the TF beekeepers here is a bit presumptive. I'd say there is quite a varied group of folks


yes it is varied for sure, I was refering to what I perceive as the 2 most vocal camps on the forum out of the varied group. not trying to be presumptive, didn't mean to come across that way


----------



## squarepeg

aunt betty said:


> In other words when I get swarm cells I split, sometimes aggressively. It's not exactly the best strategy but it is better than letting them swarm.


that pretty much describes my second and third seasons aunt betty, but instead of making splits and using swarm cells for them i was able to catch 80% of all swarms after they issued, and the other 20% i was feeling good about letting them repopulate the nearby woods.

i think i caught about 9 swarms in the second year, and 13 swarms in the third. i used them to make increase and it worked. i even sold a few. 100% of my colonies swarmed at least once every year, mostly at about this time of year.

the 4th year was when i met walt wright who came down to my yards to over see the checkerboarding of my hives. that spring, i went from 100% swarms to 50%. this totally surprised walt, and he was convinced that these bees were the swarmiest he had ever seen.

it made sense too because they have been derived from feral survivors cut out of trees. it turns out i was keeping swarmy bees to start with and restocking them with their swarms! in a sense i was selecting for swarminess by not deselecting for it.

we learned and tweaked the method and i've been at about 15% or so swarm rate ever since. plus for a few years now i've been selecting breeders from non swarmy colonies and deselecting queens from the swarmy ones.


----------



## DerTiefster

On OTS vs. honey production -- 

What I've read Disselkoen to say is to start the swarm season with a pre-emptive split of the queen and some appropriately selected frames, leaving the rest of the colony in place. The queen continues to lay eggs and generate brood, just not in the same hive with the original colony. This compares interestingly with the "cut-down split" technique. I do not understand why it would not do what Disselkoen suggests, which is to leave the population of the home colony with the job of making replacement queens, a lowered brood population to feed, and therefore more foragers to resupply the colony (and beekeeper) with honey for a new-queen-fired attempt to push the world's bee population over the top.

From the beekeeper's perspective, this seemed to be a good way to propagate bees, generate increase and keep reserve nucs, as well as to harvest honey. By selecting productive colonies for multiple (in OTS, not hundreds of) queens from good producers, one should still be selecting for productive colonies. In the selection process, one would avoid feeding back notably swarm-prone bees into the apiary.

Have I misunderstood something important here? I'd answer the O.P. with a "Go for it!" It happens to be where I'm headed over the next couple of years. I'm building population now and starting to introduce queen (cells) from TF apiaries near me. Every bee gene I have on-site was new to me last year, so I can't say much about development patterns in my apiary. But I'm trying local increase, too, and OTS should be involved although I've just done "walk away" splits so far, letting the bees generate their own queens. Well, they already had started that, so I just endorsed, aided, and abetted them.


----------



## clyderoad

The OTS program may work in MI and not be of advantage anywhere else.


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI

It has worked well for me. From the winter of 2010/11 to 2015/16 my overwintering success rate for 5/5 frame nucs has been 86% - that has been a total of 146/169 colonies making it from fall until April 1st. I have been using Mel's method of OTS, but splitting them into 5 frame nucs of drawn comb and then allowing them to draw another 5 frames before fall, using Michael Palmers' skinny box principles. The only other method of mite control I use is drone comb removal on colonies in production and the overwintered colony as it is grown into a double deep before it is split. 


This past winter of 2016/17 has not been good. I am at about 30% survival - why you ask? Because of beekeeper error. I started my splits too early, and thus allowed too many cycles of mites. Additionally, Mel says if you start before the summer equinox the queens shut down earlier than the ones that are mated after the equinox. Colonies that are started too early like this also can swarm and leave you with a colony that might or might not requeen appropriately before fall. :-( 

Whilst this past winter has been costly, the lessons I have learned from it are invaluable.

Here is a link to a video I posted in 2014, when I was more Klutzy than I am now ;-) 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MatoOA9TapA&t=1s


----------



## squarepeg

nice report adrian. do many of your overwintered nucs end up as someone's production hives and if so how do those perform with respect to honey yields and mites?


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI

I don't get reports as to other's honey production, but my own do pretty well, usually at least the state average. My goal is to make 1000 pounds a year to sell at work. Last year I ran 15 hives for production and made 1300 pounds - 86# average. 

In order not to buy bees I make more colonies than I intend to use. The model that has worked for me has been to overwinter enough colonies so that 1/3 is for production, 1/3 is for making increase, and 1/3 is for making up losses or to sell if I am successful. This year I will only be selling a few colonies and those are spoken for.


----------



## squarepeg

nice. i would expect that the honey production for the ones you sell would be comparable to what you are getting. do you or the others have to treat the production hives at year's end?


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI

I don't. I don't know what the others do. The colonies that have gone through a production run often succumb to mites. This usually happens before Christmas, but after the bees have stopped flying in the fall. I am a stickler for managing colony entrances so that they don't get robbed out. I am experimenting with busting the hives back to nucs after production is over, but I have not settled on the best way to do that yet.


----------



## squarepeg

even nicer. can you share the percentage winter loss of your production hives, and do you consider that percentage more than is comfortably sustainable by the overwintered nucs?

if you are finding winter losses trending in the good direction then i wouldn't change a thing, and suggest that you consider letting the selection/deselection process continue to play out.

way to go adrian!


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI

For production colonies up to the winter of 2015/16 it was 56% for a total of 35/62. Yes, I believe that I have the ratio about right for most years. This coming year I expect there will be less honey, but that is OK. I am looking forward to spring.


----------



## squarepeg

sorry for all the questions adrian, yours is an interesting story.

do you have a feel for how the winter losses (production hives) are going to look for 2016/2017?


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI

No problem. It looks sorry too. I am at 2/10.


----------



## squarepeg

dang. sorry to hear that adrian. can you tell us about the background/genetics of the bees you are propagating?


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI

By now they are mutts, but there is a mix of VSH and Carniolans and whatever drones are in the area.


----------



## squarepeg

understood adrian, and thanks for the replies.

so your dealing with local hybrids and it sounds like they could use some help in the natural resistance department.

will the 2 survivors serve as queen mothers for this year's splits? have you thought about trying a breeder queen from a reputable breeder?


----------



## Riverderwent

msl said:


> there are mostly 2 types of TF fokes in this fourm...those who are good beekeepers and have a location that has made it fairly easy for them... and those who see TF as do nothing bee keeping, sit back and see if your bees will make it
> to one set OTS is not needed, to the other its too much work/woodware or is against doctrine


Nice insight.


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI

Squarepeg, I plan to add back some VSH to the mix this year. Providing the 2 survivors stay calm they will likely be split. I don't propagate those that are aggressive.


----------



## DerTiefster

I have a suspicion that I'm in the gray area. I would prefer TF, natural comb, etc, and consider that OTS and Disselkoen's management recommendations may help me with mite control and locally bred queens. But I'll be incorporating genes from successful folks of various stripes, too. AstroBee is not far from me and I just got some QCs from him. And I am learning from my bees, too, even those that leave.

Adrian (O.P.) is in WI, which is were a recent flurry of disease notices originated. Is it possible that your attrition was related to that?


----------



## squarepeg

very cool adrian. i'll wager i'm not the only one interested in following your story. consider starting a thread about your operation sometime if you are so inclined.


----------



## Riverderwent

squarepeg said:


> very cool adrian. i'll wager i'm not the only one interested in following your story. consider starting a thread about your operation sometime if you are so inclined.


+1


----------



## mike bispham

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> This past winter of 2016/17 has not been good. I am at about 30% survival - why you ask? Because of beekeeper error. I started my splits too early, and thus allowed too many cycles of mites. Additionally, Mel says if you start before the summer equinox the queens shut down earlier than the ones that are mated after the equinox.
> 
> Whilst this past winter has been costly, the lessons I have learned from it are invaluable.


Read through to here, and I'm not sure if anyone has asked: how disruptive is this method to the development of resistance? How can it be made to contribute to resistance? Or is it just, forget resistance, lets keep bees in ways that suit us, and not worry about it? It which case why not use treatments?

Mike UK


----------



## Adrian Quiney WI

Der, it is possible. However, I am more inclined to believe it is operator error. Last year we had a very early spring and my bees were way ahead of where they should have been and I didn't adjust my practices enough to accommodate for this. An early spring allows for more cycles of mites.

Squarepeg, thanks for the compliment. What I am doing is not that complicated. It is a combination of Mel Disselkoen's brood break system and Michael Palmer's Nuc principles as an alternative to chemical treatments to make increase colonies. Interestingly, in April's ABJ Keith Delaplane discusses (in an article on epidemiology) that mite virulence is relaxed in apiaries left free to swarm. 

"This raises an important question about whether the time-honored practice of swarm prevention for purposes of maximizing honey production is in fact sustainable period. We need the input of agricultural economists here, but the biology makes me wonder if it is worth letting colonies swarm if the gains in honey bee health exceed the losses in per-colony honey hoarding efficiency. I do not know the answer to that question, but it is a real question that needs to be answered." 

I appreciate the fact that Keith is thinking along these lines. I really enjoyed the article and would point him in the direction of Mel D. and beekeeper directed cleansing invigorating brood breaks.


----------



## squarepeg

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> ...beekeeper directed cleansing invigorating brood breaks.


i agree with your take on this adrian. randy oliver has demonstrated with his mite population modeling that a brood break can tip the scales big time in the bees' favor.

i feel like our long summer dearth here along with the adaptation made by our local hybrids to shut down brooding until fall plays an important part in the over all scheme of things on how they are successful against varroa.

for those in other ecoregions where there there is not a protracted summer dearth adjusting management to combine making increase with providing a brood break makes darn good sense.


----------



## Riverderwent

squarepeg said:


> i feel like our long summer dearth here along with the adaptation made by our local hybrids to shut down brooding until fall plays an important part in the over all scheme of things on how they are successful against varroa.
> 
> for those in other ecoregions where there there is not a protracted summer dearth adjusting management to combine making increase with providing a brood break makes darn good sense.


So dearth births mirth, but feeding and breeding is leading to ceding.


----------



## DavidZ

sucks for me, ots queens hatching and now there is rain for the next 8 days, f...


----------



## gww

David
I don't know if it is any consulation but it had been raining several days here. I don't know what a queen would think but each day the bees have still had several hours flying inbetween bouts of rain.
Good luck
gww


----------



## KGB

Swarmhunter said:


> Next Winter I'll let you know how it worked out for me.
> Jerry


Out of curiosity, did you do it? Outcome?


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Going to use OTS*

It's been a real experience going from trying to use OTS 3 years ago- then treating for three years - and now I'm hoping the additional knowledge I have gained these last few years will keep me more focused on following Mel's instructions. Part of what I've learned is if you're not willing to put in the TIME to do the manipulations for any kind of beekeeping you're doomed from the beginning.
It was my best year for honey last year- I ended up with 1100lbs of honey from 14 hives, but I plan on using about half of those hives to make Nucs next year.
I have sold a few Nucs locally. This year will be less honey- Nucs for June and for overwintering.
I'll try to keep everybody up to date as I go.
I'd like to hear from anybody with helpful ideas


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: Going to use OTS*

:thumbsup: 

sounds like a good plan. looking forward to hearing about it sh!

excellent point about the time factor.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Going to use OTS*

I kinda of use OTS with about 30% survival so far (not that I will change my ways - works for me).
Just FYI.
But I am not pedantic about OTS methodology either - calendar and all that.
When I find time I do it and don't bother with notching dances.


----------



## Litsinger

Swarmhunter:

Good post. Sounds like you've got the honey production down and are diversifying by selling a few nucs as well. Good for you.

At this point are you planning on using OTS as your sole varroa control method?

I do look forward to hearing about your efforts, and best of success in your overwintering efforts.

Russ


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Russ-
Yes I plan on using OTS as my only mite control method. I also have introduced 3-4 mite resistant Queens every year and try to use them as Queen mothers if they winter good.
One of the things that has confused me somewhat is reading how others are using Mels methods. If you listen closely to how he manipulates the increase timings- He splits his hives as soon as they are strong enough (Apr.- May) for one brood break and after the summer solstice for the next break. I don't understand how some people think they're going to get reliable mite control with just one brood break. 
For those who want honey production- he also explains how to put these splits together to make powerhouse honey hives.
Are you using Mels methods?


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> Are you using Mels methods?


Good reply, Swarmhunter. In response, no I am not using Mel's methods but I have read up on the subject and know several beekeepers in my area employing it to good effect.

Currently I am experimenting with trying to keep bees without treatments and without any intervening manipulations for the expressed purpose of mite control.

That said, I respect and appreciate others who are experimenting with other techniques, and I do hope you will keep us posted as to how the OTS method works for you.

Thanks again for your input, and have a great week.

Russ


----------



## rwlaw

*Re: Going to use OTS*

This wil be my 8th season using OTS. Great for increases, honey production and as far as I’m concerned far simpler than grafting as long as you don’t want to mass produce queens. The only thing that I wavered on is the brood breaks for mite control. I live in an area of orchards and other commercial agriculture so I figure that I’m in the epicenter of mites that have all the viruses that are known. After a complete collapse in 2015/16 winter from virus and mite related issues I started treating w/ OAV to control the life suckers.
If your in a area of low mite population brood breaks and are playing w/ VSH queens it will probably will work, just be prepared for plan B.


----------



## Jtcmedic

*Re: Going to use OTS*

We are starting our 1st full year with ots, started last fall split from 6 to 16 and will be getting ready to make some spring splits to build up and split again to overwinter 25 nucs. Gonna be a busy year but looking forward to the ots. I can’t say enough good things about it. Makes it simple. My only down side is I don’t have drawn comb so will be building


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

RW Law--
Have you been using Mel's complete program of two complete brood breaks a year and when have you been doing the second one. Just trying to put my program for next year together
Jerry


----------



## Swarmhunter

Just a note about that 2017 year. I had good intentions about giving OTS a fair chance. Life interrupted with health issues, and several other restraints. 
I'm in a position to give it the attention necessary this year. As of today I have 13 hives to start my year. Hopefully in April they'll still be with me. I should have enough woodenware and I will be selling a few Nucs .
Just a note- The term brood break has a different meaning to different people. It is not just requeening or cageing the queen for a short period or manipulating frames to control swarming. If you are really interested in this procedure , look into Mel Dissoelkoen lectures and teachings on OTS. He's quite thorough.
Jerry


----------



## rwlaw

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> RW Law--
> Have you been using Mel's complete program of two complete brood breaks a year and when have you been doing the second one. Just trying to put my program for next year together
> Jerry


The artificial swarm in the spring won’t get the brood break, Mel always said to use them for honey production and count of them being a possible loss in the fall. I shied away from that because of them probably turning into mite bombs, those hives were the ones that received the first queen culling in June. 
The starts from the spring and the post solstice queen culling will be the ones receiving the 2 brood breaks for the year. 
One thing Mel has started doing is putting the queen and a couple/ three shakes of bees into a nuc box with a frame of honey and the other four frames bare foundation. The bees will immediately start using the honey to build foundation which will give the queen a place to lay on the honey frame. He’s only done this with the post solstice culling, I don’t know how it would work in the spring. While this isn’t a 30 day brood break, it will disrupt the breeding cycle of the mites.


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: Going to use OTS*

moderator note - i just combined swarmhunter's two 'ots' threads into one thread and stickied it.

great thread jerry, many thanks for your contributions!


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Rod-The increases made by Mel in the Spring he uses for Nuc production , although those Nucs could be combined for the Spring flow. The old queen is put into another separate hive and taken to the July split time( remember now this Old Queen hive has not went through a brood break in the Spring) He then dispatches this queen and breaks it down into more nucs to feed and raise their own Queen for overwintered Nucs. This gives all those Nucs a long brood break before the new queen starts laying. Whats good about this method is that he's useing old overwintered queens to produce the Nucs he"s going to be overwintering.
It sounds complicated- It's really not if you take it one step at a time.


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Going to incorporate Walt Wrights hive configuration with Mel's OTS methods . Not exactly sure how it's going to work out . Going to try a couple of different approaches . One med. on bottom for pollen - one deep for brood- med.s for brood and honey above. Early May brood break and early July Brood break making some Nucs for sale in July. Anybody got any helpful hints? 10 pkgs put in deep brood boxes Sat. 1st step done.
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> Anybody got any helpful hints?


Jerry:

While I haven't endeavored to take on the project you have in mind, I am interested in hearing how this works out for you. I imagine since you are talking about Walt Wright you are referring to checkerboarding? Assuming this, I suppose you are getting ahead of the game for next year after your colonies overwinter?

Best of luck to you with your beekeeping efforts this year.

Russ


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Russ- yes- most of what i'm going to do this year is in preparation for next year. I'll be using Mel Dissoelkoen's OTS method to make as many increases as I can in May and early July. Building as many strong single deeps with 1 or hopefully 2 med. supers by Fall. Feed to backfill the broodnest and get ready for next Spring. I've read that Checker Boarding should be done 9 weeks before 50 growing degree days. That would put me about 1 March. Does that seem possible. We had 24 degrees this morning and snow the last couple of days. You have any knowledge of how Walt used to make that decisions?
Eventually the hives I keep for honey Production I'm going to use CB. The hives I use for Nuc sales I'll be using Mel's OTS.
One step at a time- got to build as many deep singles as possible. 
I've read as much as I could find from You and Squarepeg. Some of Walts Manuscripts can get a little confusing sometimes. By about the 3rd time through them - I'm getting things get sorted out. I'll try to let people know as I go.
Stay Safe
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> Russ- yes- most of what i'm going to do this year is in preparation for next year.


Jerry:

From my very humble vantage point, this is wisdom. Getting your colonies pointing now in the direction where you want to be next year seems to provide the highest probability for success. It seems that any time I try to take a shortcut in beekeeping, it comes back around to bite me sooner rather than later.

As regards checkerboarding, Squarepeg is the undisputed resident expert in applying it- I am only a weekend pretender. I would also suggest you read clong's chronicle here on Beesource, as he is experienced in the procedure and has had good success with it.

Regarding timing- I am in the relatively warm Mid-South, so I get the sense that the weather is more forgiving for us down here taking gambles with hive manipulations early in the season than it might be for folks like you in more Northern latitudes. In my local area I have been watching for when the elms bloom (early/mid February for me) to get a sense of when it is time to Checkerboard, and still find that the bees have gotten a pretty good head start on making preparations to backfill the nest with tree nectar. Couple that with the fact that the weather is often cold, wet and highly variable around that time of year I am often left to consider whether it is both beneficial and worth the risk to Checkerboard. 

All that said, if I were in your shoes there would be two main checks I would do to determine if/when to Checkerboard:

1. Find a reliable local bloom cues to help you know when seasonal development is appropriate- maybe it is maples, daffodils, crocuses, elms, henbit, etc.?

2. Once the cues suggest the timing might be right, take a look under the hood to see if the colony(s) are in good enough shape and have brooded-up sufficiently to support the manipulation. While I know that Walt routinely pointed out that Checkerboarding does not impact the integrity of the broodnest, I am still of the opinion that it does induce some stress upon the colony to perforate their overhead stores at such a critical time. Couple that with the fact that one often has to move the broodnest down (at least in my experience) to be able to checkerboard above, it is safe to assume that small clusters and/or colonies in ragged shape at the beginning of the season are not ideal candidates for Checkerboarding.

Finally, and coming full-circle- being prepared is over half the battle. In my case I always seem to have a shortage of drawn comb and so this becomes a limiting factor to Checkerboarding successfully. If you follow-through with feeding your colonies heavily all season, you might want to extract that sugar water and save it to feed back such that you can generate a stockpile of drawn comb, stored and ready to use this coming late winter.

I do look forward to reading about how your season unfolds- hopefully squarepeg and clong will chime-in too.

Thanks for your warm wishes- my family and I are well by God's grace. I sincerely hope you and your family are healthy too. 

Russ


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Russ- thank-you for your input. I'm excited about the coming season. More insulation and proper hive configuration for CB next season is going to hold my attention this season. I will spend some time on Clong chronicles. Thanks for the tip. If Clong or Squarepeg have any ideas about my N.E. Iowa - season 4b - location I'd appreciate there input.
The 10 pkgs I put in on the 11th had a tough first week with teens and 20s at night. They've got honey frames and looked good yesterday (finally in the 40's). Going to get new deeps on my overwintered hives this weekend. Supposed to be 50's and 60's. Looking forward to it! the first maple pollen was being brought in on the6th of April for a couple of days. Cold since. 
I've been all mediums since I started in 2014. This 1 deep for a brood chamber is going to be new for me but I really think I understand Walt's reasoning and appreciate his years of trial and error. It must have been frustrating for him at many times especially the part about breaking through the honey cap while there is still time to. I understand why the timing is crucial. I'm looking forward to the challenge.
Good Hearing from you Russ and I'm looking forward to any information you can give. I'll try to keep you updated.
We are well here- and hope this finds you the same!
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> I've been all mediums since I started in 2014. This 1 deep for a brood chamber is going to be new for me but I really think I understand Walt's reasoning and appreciate his years of trial and error.


Jerry:

Thank you for your feedback. While I won't presume to give you advice, I might suggest that if you are already standardized around all Mediums (as I am), you might want to wait on the Deeps until you have given CB'ing a try with all Mediums. I have heard decidedly mixed reviews from those who have tried CB'ing with all Mediums, but I wonder if you will be happy with the loss of flexibility you will have going to two different box sizes- just something to think about.



Swarmhunter said:


> Good Hearing from you Russ and I'm looking forward to any information you can give. I'll try to keep you updated.


I for one look forward to hearing how your project develops this year.


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Russ- Understand your concern for frame flexibility. I love being able to go anywhere with those medium frames. Some of the hives I plan on using for med. Nucs I won't be putting deeps on. This year with the slow down I'm not sure how I'm going to split that up. Got some Nuc orders to fill but my main concentration is going to be on getting all the increases done that I can and getting as many as I can into 1 Deep and 1 med. by July 1st. My pkgs I put in a week ago look good. They seem to really like those honey frames. they're working drawn comb and it's finally going to be warm enough this week for them to get out and busy. They're going to need another box quickly. Going to put drawn comb deeps on my overwintered hives this weekend. 60 degrees Sunday finally. Have a great day!
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> Have a great day!


Thank you, Jerry. Have a good week- looks like you are making good progress on your project, and I am interested in continuing to read about how it develops.

Russ


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Russ- How are your swarm traps so far? I just put my 6 out this week end. Last year I put them mostly in wooded areas. Only got one all year. I put them out in more open areas this year - on the edges of woods and treelines . We'll see.
So far all of my overwintered hives are doing good. All 6 are now in 1 med.- 1deep - 1 med. 8- frame configuration . I lost 7 hives through last winter. I'm hopeing Walts methods improve my overwintering percentage. I'm going to split (up here we're still 2 weeks from split time) these hives into 3 to 4 Nucs one with the old Queen in it. These Nucs will be built up for next year except for the Old Queen Nuc. Going to feed heavy and split again in July. We have a heavy basswood flow in July. These will be left and fed in the Fall for next year.
I bought 10 pkgs from a local supplier who gets Wards bees from California. Good honey making bees- I've gotten them before- very prolific - build up numbers in a hurry. They are in 10 frame deeps and doing really good. All have 3-4 frames of brood already. I put 1 med. box - drawn comb- on yesterday. This will be moved under the deep in one to two weeks (when she gets laying good in the med) At that time I'll be checkerboarding above the deep with 2 med.s of drawn comb. I think I can get this done before they get a honey dome. These are going to be my honey production for this year. I don't have enough 10 frame med.s for all of the supers so I'll be using 8 frame med.s for supers- offset with a closer strip. I've done this other years. Letting the queen have an unlimited broodnest . Any that get swarmy in May or June will get split.
You have to remember that our year starts a lot later then yours. Also we have a lot longer flow then you do. If it's a dry August that can be a problem but Fall flow starts end of Aug. for a month.
I suppose you're right in the middle of swarm season! Hope you're getting a few caught!
Have a good week.
Jerry


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Russ - saw your post on other thread. Sounds like you've had a couple interesting swarm experiences. Good Luck!


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> You have to remember that our year starts a lot later then yours. Also we have a lot longer flow then you do. If it's a dry August that can be a problem but Fall flow starts end of Aug. for a month.
> I suppose you're right in the middle of swarm season! Hope you're getting a few caught!


Jerry:

Thank you for your kind wishes- I sincerely appreciate it!

Participating in this forum routinely reminds me about the axiom that, 'beekeeping in local'.

This idea is certainly no more pronounced when it comes to manipulations which are developmentally specific, such as CB'ing.

So while I would expect the process is largely the same, you obviously are not going to start CB'ing in early/mid-February like Walt did.

Also, it will be interesting to see how CB'ing works for you in an environment where you have (as I understand it) a longer but maybe less intense flow duration that we do down below the Mason-Dixon line.

It has been an explosive start to swarm season in my location. To my knowledge I have had twelve swarms issue from my own stock, and I have been able to hive 11 of them. At this point last year I only had one hived swarm. Disappointingly, I have only had one swarm move into a swarm trap on its own volition which maybe helps clarify an experiment I tried this year which I'll maybe break-down in a later post when all the dust settles.

Best of luck to you in your prep efforts- the build-up will be upon you before you know it. Our blackberries are just about ready to bloom and then the flow will be on here in earnest.

Russ


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Wow! Do you have equipment for all those swarms? They'll keep you busy for a while. I hope to catch a few this summer too. Maybe build some MP style Nucs though the summer for wintering in. 60's and 70's through this week. Anxious to get at the bee work. Going to start supering Sat.
Have a great week! 
Jerry


----------



## AR1

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> Wow! Do you have equipment for all those swarms? They'll keep you busy for a while. I hope to catch a few this summer too. Maybe build some MP style Nucs though the summer for wintering in. 60's and 70's through this week. Anxious to get at the bee work. Going to start supering Sat.
> Have a great week!
> Jerry


Wow! is right. Every time I read a post like this I think I need to move south a few hundred miles. Not for a few years, yet. Maybe after I retire. A good swarm trap year for me is 2 swarms. I have yet to see a drone fly, but expect to on the next warm day.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> Wow! Do you have equipment for all those swarms? They'll keep you busy for a while. I hope to catch a few this summer too. Maybe build some MP style Nucs though the summer for wintering in. 60's and 70's through this week. Anxious to get at the bee work. Going to start supering Sat.
> Have a great week!
> Jerry





AR1 said:


> Wow! is right. Every time I read a post like this I think I need to move south a few hundred miles. Not for a few years, yet. Maybe after I retire. A good swarm trap year for me is 2 swarms. I have yet to see a drone fly, but expect to on the next warm day.


Thanks, gents. I appreciate your feedback. While I am pleased to have hived quite a few swarms this year, I have also been glad to see first-hand the process of reproductive swarming from a couple different angles and I feel I have gained a better appreciation of just how much energy and emphasis an overwintered colony will invest into swarming when given the opportunity- it helps you more fully appreciate why the mother colony is so diminished in some respects following their swarming efforts- and why your prospects of surplus honey literally fly away.

I have three bottom boards left and I am furiously working to get more boxes and frames ready to use- my main goal for this year had been to begin to learn the art of managing overwintered colonies for maximum production, but it looks like I might need to shift my focus a bit to sustaining what has been gained numerically for next year.

FWIW- We down here in more Southern climates envy the long flow you all have up north. Our surplus gathering will be done here in early - mid June and then we only hope for a little help in a fall flow which might not start until late September. 

So... every area and climate has its advantages and disadvantages when it comes to beekeeping- the trick it seems is trying to maximize the good and minimize the bad in one's particular area, which seems to comport with the idea of working with locally-adapted bees.

Thank you both again for your feedback. Have a great day.

Russ


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Russ- In one of your other posts you said you had put med. boxes at bottom under your brood boxes and they weren't using them at all. I'm not sure about Walts view of that pollen box but I think he meant only put an empty box down there if that's all you have at the time. I started all my pkgs in 8 frame deeps. 2 weeks ago I put a med box on top. (These are all drawn comb) At that time the deeps had 3-4 frames of larvae and capped brood. Yesterday the top med. had 2-3 frames of larvae and capped brood. the bottom deep had 4-5 frames of brood. I moved all of the med.s to the bottoms where I hope they continue to lay and store pollen in the bottom med. Those bottom med.s will be there for the season and winter now. I have my entrance in the bottom inch of the deep brood box. No top hole. I plan on CBing next weekend. I have 10 like this. We'll see what happens. 
Hope your new swarms are happy! Saw first drones yesterday. Will be doing some splits next weekend on my other med.s depending on the weather.
The apricots and plums are flowering this morning. Apples a few days off yet and the dandelions are finally here! 
Have a nice weekend.
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> Russ- In one of your other posts you said you had put med. boxes at bottom under your brood boxes and they weren't using them at all. I'm not sure about Walts view of that pollen box but I think he meant only put an empty box down there if that's all you have at the time.


Jerry:

Good observation- last year I did in-fact experiment with putting empty boxes on the very bottom of the stack of a few hives to see if they would draw out any new comb. I discovered that for the most part they would not.

My rationale for doing so was not to execute the 'pollen box' maneuver as described by Mr. Wright per se, but rather to experiment with a goal of mine to get whole boxes of comb drawn out for the purposes of systematic comb renewal.

I remain woefully drawn-comb poor, so I am trying to find a slam-dunk way to get comb drawn out in assembly-line fashion.

What I have found thus far is that this might be like searching for the mythical 'El Dorado'... though my current experiment of bisecting the broodnest seems to yield more acceptable results.

Best of success to you with your splitting efforts- I expect that based on your focus and preparation this will be a rousing success for you- and I look forward to reading all about your booming apiary.

Blackberries have just started blooming here and the flow is on in earnest. A few weeks of unbridled nectar-gathering glory .


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Going to do strength evaluations tomorro . Here it's split time if strong enough, finally warm enough. Going to be a busy few days. Feeders will either be refilled- on weak ones- or taken out. Will let you know what I find.
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> Going to do strength evaluations tomorro .


How'd everything look, Jerry? You got any hives ready to split yet?


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Russ- Did my splits yesterday. Split my 6 med- deep- med hives into 6 more med- deep- med hives. Evened out resources between the two - placed side by side. They looked like they were coming and going about evenly out of both. Sprayed a little lemon oil - sugar water on the front of each hive as I went. Confuse them on which one they might prefer . I had drawn comb for everything. Weather was nice. Apple trees and pears are in blossom. All of my hives took about a gallon of sugar water the last couple of weeks through the cold weather. They really made a lot of brood through the whole colder stretch though.
Next Fri- Sat - will be checking to see which hives have the old Queens and which have new Queen cells. Will be putting together a dozen or better Nucs from several other med frame hives next week end. Those will be made from my overwintered Queens that I pulled old Queens from on Thrus. and notched on Thrus. These Queens were easy to find, I marked them in end of March. A couple weren't real strong- hopefully they'll have a couple of queen cells in each hive.
All through with manipulations until July then. The deep combination hives will be left intact for honey and overwintering. I'll be putting 2 med. supers on the 12 deep combination hives- drawn comb and feed- on next weekend. 6 will have Queens- 6 will have Queen cells, hopefully. Because I was going to do the split I didn't CB earlier. We'll see how it goes.
Unconventional as far as Walter would consider it. Hopefully my overwintering % will be better next year. Making bees this year. Maybe this summer will be a good honey year too.
Are your swarm all getting used to there new homes. Our first swarms are a week or so away yet. Lots of drones here.
Hope things are well there.
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Going to use OTS*



Swarmhunter said:


> Russ- Did my splits yesterday.
> 
> ...
> 
> Are your swarm all getting used to there new homes. Our first swarms are a week or so away yet. Lots of drones here.
> Hope things are well there.


Jerry:

Sounds like you are off and running now- good for you. Hopefully your approach will be a reliable means of making increase and you find yourself with more bees than you know what to do with before you know it.

I can't believe that I am ready for swarm season to be over, but I am. It has been a good year on the increase front and all the new colonies seem to be doing well thus far. I did a quick 'tilt up' of nine (9) of the hived swarms this weekend and they have between 7 and 10 frames drawn out thus far and I am not providing them any supplemental feed.

All is well for us down here by God's grace, and I sincerely hope the same for you and your family.

Best of success with your splitting efforts- glad to read it is going well thus far.

Russ


----------



## Swarmhunter

*Re: Going to use OTS*

Wow- A pleasant surprise! Went into all 10 of my splits from May 14th. These were all in med.- deep- med.s. after the initial split. Used all drawn foundation and evened out resources at split times. All 10 of the queenless hives had queen cells! I'm tickled pink. From the observations as I went the queenless hives had less bees (drift) but they've all got 1-2 frames of capped brood to hatch during this period.
All hives with queens where given CB with drawn comb and look to be ready to take off. The hives with queen cells were left as is and openings squeezed down for now. Got my overwintered hives to check and super today. Running out of drawn comb will be using foundation from here on in. Apple blossom almost over. Could use a little rain.
Have a safe and prosperous day!
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

Good on you, Jerry. Glad to hear all your splits are off to a roaring start.

You may have already mentioned this, but have you ever contacted Mel directly? He seems to be a very generous guy and you might be able to hear directly from him about any questions you have about your approach?

Again, glad all is progressing well.

Have a great day. 

Russ


----------



## Swarmhunter

Russ-Modified OTS- these were pkgs- Only strong enough to do walk away splits in May. My after soltice splits will be be done according to Mels Methods. Will be making Nucs for overwintering at that time. All Queens will be dispatched or sold for Nucs.Busy time getting strawberry acre ready for U-pick. Asparagus has been selling exceptionally well. Next bee checks 5-6-7 June. Hope your your bees are doing well 
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

Swarmhunter said:


> Busy time getting strawberry acre ready for U-pick. Asparagus has been selling exceptionally well.


Jerry:

Sounds like you have quite a diversified operation. Good for you. It has been a long and mild spring here this year which is not been common for us in recent years. The bees seem to be doing well thus far though we lost out on a couple local forage sources (tulip poplar and locust in particular) due to a late April freeze event.

Glad to hear that business and beekeeping are going well, and I'll look forward to reading about your early June evaluations.

Russ


----------



## Swarmhunter

Just started picking strawberries- Going to be a light crop this year. I knew the freeze in May had hurt them- didn't know how bad until now. Looks like half a crop. Better news with the bees though. 9 of the 11 splits I did May 15th have laying queens and hard at work. The queen right halves are doing about like the splits. A couple a little slow but most are pushing strong. Now in about 2 weeks will be decision time - whether to let make honey or split and build up for next year. How much rain and feed availability will determine my choices there. Basswood flow in July usually good. 
Hope your swarms are staying in the boxes! Haven't caught any here. Have a good day
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

Swarmhunter said:


> I knew the freeze in May had hurt them- didn't know how bad until now. Looks like half a crop. Better news with the bees though.


Jerry:

Glad to hear that you had good success with your splits- way to go. We have had a similar problem down here with fruit production, albeit a month earlier. It has proven to be a better 'bee year' than a 'tree year'.

Most disappointing is I planted five tart cherry trees in late March that leafed out beautifully only to get zapped and never recover. Sometimes you can't win for losing- I lost trees last year by planting too late and it got too hot.

I'm surprised you haven't had any swarms- are local reports suggesting that swarms are being caught in your region?


----------



## Swarmhunter

Yes - there's swarms being reported around right now in the area. Next couple weeks here should be the best. Have to check again end of next week. All yours growing?
Jerry


----------



## BigBlackBirds

Swarmhunter said:


> Just started picking strawberries- Going to be a light crop this year. I knew the freeze in May had hurt them- didn't know how bad until now. Looks like half a crop. Better news with the bees though. 9 of the 11 splits I did May 15th have laying queens and hard at work. The queen right halves are doing about like the splits. A couple a little slow but most are pushing strong. Now in about 2 weeks will be decision time - whether to let make honey or split and build up for next year. How much rain and feed availability will determine my choices there. Basswood flow in July usually good.
> Hope your swarms are staying in the boxes! Haven't caught any here. Have a good day
> Jerry



I noticed wild strawberries turning red within the last few days. The farm down road from me that grows them started picking on Sunday afternoon. They anticipated zero crop from the severe frosts but I talked to them this looks like they have more like 80% crop.
Picking is still really slow as the weather here has turned cooler in the last few days. But we are suppose to heat up in day or so that might push them to ripen

Little swarm activity here this year in grand scheme of things compared to last couple decades.


----------



## Litsinger

Swarmhunter said:


> All yours growing?


So far, so good, Jerry- that said, our flow wound down weeks ago and we have drone evictions in process.

Now comes the long, hot summer before (maybe) a little fall flow.


----------



## Swarmhunter

Started watering strawberries yesterday. Hopefully helps them fill out for next week. Bees are in heaven here multifloral rose, honeysuckel and wild flowers through out the woods. Going to let them work and get stronger through the strawberry season. 
Way more strawberry customers than strawberries, I hope the late strawberries come in good shape next week.My name list of people that want to pick is getting long. Tomorro afternoon- one last pass with the rototiller through pumpkins and the squash before they explode. They look good. They washed a little with 4 inches of rain a week and a half ago. Don't need anymore of that.
Keep the bees a buzzn!
Jerry


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> So far, so good, Jerry- that said, our flow wound down weeks ago and we have drone evictions in process.
> 
> Now comes the long, hot summer before (maybe) a little fall flow.


Have not seen drone evictions here prior to late fall. I think even our dearth is pretty mild most years. This is a nice season. Strawberries good to eat, mulberries just starting today, raspberries probably next week. Could use a rain, but that's forecast for later this week too.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Have not seen drone evictions here prior to late fall.


AR1:

I apologize for my delay in reply. To clarify, I should have chosen my verb more carefully as the word 'eviction' does carry with it a rather specific meaning in beekeeping. Maybe I should have said that some colonies around here are no longer allowing 'free lunches' to random drones who are flying around the neighborhood. There are still plenty of drones coming back in en masse every afternoon but some colonies are forcefully turning away drones who I presume weren't raised in the colony- I assume (possibly incorrectly) this is in response to the dearth.


----------



## Sickdog5

Question what is the point of this OTS method? If you remove the queen won't the bee's just make queen cells on there own? Maybe a stupid question take it easy on me please. lol


----------



## GregB

Sickdog5 said:


> Question what is the point of this OTS method? If you remove the queen won't the bee's just make queen cells on there own? Maybe a stupid question take it easy on me please. lol


Sickdog, I commented on the OTS before.
Two parts to it.

#1 is about creating QCs; this is required for the OTS queen management.

It IMO boils down to the OTS "inventor" is using plastic foundation and, hence, is doing the so-called notches where the bees will likely make the EQCs (Emergency Queen Cells). The evil plastic foundation prevents the bees from modifying the comb the way they normally would for QC construction.

Whereas, if you are foundation-less, none of this matters - the bees will modify the comb wherever and however they want to construct the cells.
Moreover, you can then cut out the QCs and move them around as needed (into mating nucs, for example).

With plastic foundation in place, one can not safely cut out the QCs and so they stay OTS (On The Site) exactly where you create them. It boils down to an entire frame dedicated to a single QC - really inefficient way to do the QCs.

If you think of it, the OTS is really a poor way to handle the entire issue and is nothing but a way to mitigate plastic foundation problem (IF you choose not to graft, I don't graft for example).

#2 is about creating brood breaks and nucs and running your entire operation like so:
https://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf
https://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/NucManagement.pdf


----------



## Sickdog5

GregV said:


> Sickdog, I commented on the OTS before.
> IMO, it boils down to the OTS "inventor" is using plastic foundation and, hence, is doing the so-called notches where the bees will likely make the EQCs (Emergency Queen Cells). The evil plastic foundation prevents the bees from modifying the comb the way they normally would for QC construction.
> 
> Whereas, if you are foundation-less, none of this matters - the bees will modify the comb wherever and however they want to construct the cells.
> Moreover, you can then cut out the QCs and move them around as needed (into mating nucs, for example).
> 
> With plastic foundation in place, one can not safely cut out the QCs and so they stay OTS (On The Site).
> If you think of it, the OTS is really a poor way to handle the entire issue and is nothing but a way to mitigate plastic foundation problem (IF you choose not to graft, I don't for example).


 Thanks Greg didn't see your post befor


----------



## GregB

I did not comment under this topic, technically.
See my additional mods above.


----------



## Swarmhunter

It's been a while since I posted anything. To bring you up to date- I split all of my hives in May with walkaway splits. I then started to reconfigure all my hives according to Walter Wrights manuscripts - med.- deep- med. 2 inches of foam on top of everything. In July gave all of the hives that hadn't went through a brood break a 30 day break. Moved all entrances to the top of the bottom box. No upper vent on anything. Insulation on top all year long with only one small round entrance. I now have 33 hives as of yesterday with a warm day in Dec. 55 degrees. They were all flying and happy. I did feed heavy in Sept. and Oct.
I will try to answer any questions and keep you updated through the winter
With all the splits those hives that I didn't split until July still made over700 lbs of honey.
I have no idea how this is going to turn out. So far so good.
Jerry


----------



## JWPalmer

Thanks for the update Jerry. Sounds like things are going really well in your apiary.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Sounds like you’re rocking Jerry! 

On the notching thing, I tried it several times. Each time I cracked open the hive in a few days and they had fixed my notches. If I hadn’t marked the frames I wouldn’t have believed just how seamless their remodel turned out. Simultaneously, they made a bunch of queens out of eggs or larvae I didn’t pick. I’m 100% sure it was me, but tried picking different ages, positions on the frame, etc. Gave up on it. But they still always produced the queens they wanted. Glad you’re finding what works.


----------



## Litsinger

Swarmhunter said:


> I now have 33 hives as of yesterday with a warm day in Dec. 55 degrees. They were all flying and happy.


Hard to argue with results like that Jerry- congratulations on a successful season.

Assuming you have good overwintering, what will be the plan for 2021?

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Russ


----------



## Swarmhunter

joebeewhisperer said:


> Sounds like you’re rocking Jerry!
> 
> On the notching thing, I tried it several times. Each time I cracked open the hive in a few days and they had fixed my notches. If I hadn’t marked the frames I wouldn’t have believed just how seamless their remodel turned out. Simultaneously, they made a bunch of queens out of eggs or larvae I didn’t pick. I’m 100% sure it was me, but tried picking different ages, positions on the frame, etc. Gave up on it. But they still always produced the queens they wanted. Glad you’re finding what works.


It depends on what your goals are. If you're trying to make as many Nucs as possible from one strong hive then notching helps put QC's on more of the frames so you can move them into the Nucs. If you are just trying to split a hive into 2 or 3 boxes then notching in my estimate isn't necessary. I didn't do any notching last year. Mel makes an argument for notching because he feels it gives the bees the ability to draw cells straight down and allows them to form larger and better quality QC's I've had good luck with both approaches. If I'm going to make 3-4 Nuc's - I notch.


----------



## Swarmhunter

Litsinger said:


> Hard to argue with results like that Jerry- congratulations on a successful season.
> 
> Assuming you have good overwintering, what will be the plan for 2021?
> 
> Merry Christmas to you and your family.
> 
> Russ


Hi Russ-
I've been looking forward to resuming our discussions on natural hive circulation and insulation. Should have more time through the winter.
This year has me taking some major steps I've been thinking about for years. I can tell you from the looks of the flights during the couple of warm spells we've had here this Fall I am extremely optimistic. 
My plans for next year are to put 10 8- frame hives into honey production for our roadside stand. The other 10 8-frame hives and the 13 10 frame hives I will be making Nucs with. I will be using OTS and a combination of different splitting methods, utilizing overwintered Queens for early Nucs and splits for May and July Nucs. 
How did your hives fare this year? What configuration did you settle on for summer and fall? I'm looking forward to March and examining the bottom pollen boxes. We had an extremely good pollen flow this Fall and I put almost 1000 pounds of sugar into them last Fall.
Hope this finds you well. Have a Mery Christmas too!
Jerry


----------



## GregB

joebeewhisperer said:


> Gave up on it.


If you are foundation-less - I say forget that notching thing - waste of time.
The bees will do what they want, where they want it, and however they want it done.

Heck, once they chewed from the opposite comb side and released a queen from under the cage (took me a while to figure this one out).
So the natural comb (especially fresh comb) has not much of a stopping power from the bees.

If you are on plastic foundation (exactly what Mel D. does - just watch is pics/videos) - then maybe.
The plastic really messes the bees up, IMO.
Bees can not chew through the plastic and so have to resort to life hacks, aka "notches".


----------



## Swarmhunter

GregV said:


> If you are foundation-less - I say forget that notching thing - waste of time.
> The bees will do what they want, where they want it, and however they want it done.
> 
> Heck, once they chewed from the opposite comb side and released a queen from under the cage (took me a while to figure this one out).
> So the natural comb (especially fresh comb) has not much of a stopping power from the bees.
> 
> If you are on plastic foundation (exactly what Mel D. does - just watch is pics/videos) - then maybe.
> The plastic really messes the bees up, IMO.
> Bees can not chew through the plastic and so have to resort to life hacks, aka "notches".


I use plastic foundation in all of my brood frames and plastic foundation in my extracted honey frames and foundationless in my cut comb honey production. I don't believe you understand the purpose and technique for notching that Mel uses for Nuc production. It's done to produce queen cells on 3 or 4 frames so that he can put those frames in Nucs. If done right it produces a very nice spread of queen cells that can be divided up into Nucs. I've seen no indication that plastic foundation coated with wax messes up bees. If it did then there's a lot of messed up hives in this country.
Bees draw supercedure cells in the middle of the comb all the time. Notching just helps them build a better queen cell.
Notching is just part of my overall scheme.
Have a good day
Jerry


----------



## Gray Goose

Swarmhunter said:


> I use plastic foundation in all of my brood frames and plastic foundation in my extracted honey frames and foundationless in my cut comb honey production. I don't believe you understand the purpose and technique for notching that Mel uses for Nuc production. It's done to produce queen cells on 3 or 4 frames so that he can put those frames in Nucs. If done right it produces a very nice spread of queen cells that can be divided up into Nucs. I've seen no indication that plastic foundation coated with wax messes up bees. If it did then there's a lot of messed up hives in this country.
> Bees draw supercedure cells in the middle of the comb all the time. Notching just helps them build a better queen cell.
> Notching is just part of my overall scheme.
> Have a good day
> Jerry


so just to toss a few comments in here.
notching has a couple purposes.
main one is to get queens started on several frames for better "frame" splitting, IE just split using frames.
Second is that for E queens the bees would "either" chew away the cells and start the queen from a cup they build around the egg OR float the larvae out on a pool of RJ and make it outside the current cell structure. If you have new white combs, (Alley and Miller methods) then the chewing is easy, the best use is on older comb with a lot of cocoons.
The process is that when the bees fix the broken area and find they are queen less they then just make a couple there.

there is not really any stuff in the notching, it is mostly in the timing of what you do and forcing the brood breaks.
the actual notching is to "place" the cells where you want , and to break down the old comb/cocoons.
one could use the timing protocols and do walk away, as well for example.

As well IMO the "Mel OTS" is a treatment and one could just as well do a dribble or VAP so just depends on personal preference.
I am glad to have this tactic in the tool box, so many folks can use it if needed.
As far as its effect on honey production, I do not see any reason One could not re-combine 2 small into 1 normal size dispatching the poorer Queen or use a 2 queen hive, for the production, or super NUCs.

GG


----------



## GregB

Swarmhunter said:


> I use plastic foundation in all of my brood frames and plastic foundation in my extracted honey frames and foundationless in my cut comb honey production. I don't believe you understand the purpose and technique for notching that Mel uses for Nuc production


And that is exactly my point, again - you use plastic foundation.
I don't.
Many others don't use plastic either - and that undermines the purpose and the technique of the notching (bad or good).

Notching on foundation-less frames does not work well (if at all) as bees will ignore your notches (no matter how beautiful your notches will be and how ideally spaced they will be).
They might use some of the notches, but more readily they will produce the QCs in the spots of *their *choice (not your choice). Besides, notching without hard plastic foundation backing is technically hard to do (nearly impossible on fresh combs).


PS: but the mitigation of the foundation-less issue is available - you simply cut the chunks of the comb with the QCs and distribute them anywhere you wish (because you can) - with plastic foundation nearly impossible to do without damaging the QCs.


----------



## Litsinger

Swarmhunter said:


> How did your hives fare this year? What configuration did you settle on for summer and fall?


Jerry:

My apologies for the delay- I've been away from the computer. It sounds like you've got a good plan for 2021, with plenty of opportunity to yield a dividend for your investment of sweat equity.

I could take a lesson from you on setting reasonable goals... I feel like I spent most of the past year in reaction mode scrambling to put out the hottest fires.

As it is, most of the colonies set-up shop in the very top box at the first onset of cool weather and so most are comprised of three (3) 8-frame Illinois hive bodies as follows (from bottom up):

#1 - Mostly empty with some stored pollen and open nectar.

#2- Mostly full with a mix of open and closed nectar.

#3- Mostly full and mostly capped. 23 of 25 colonies have set-up shop in this box.

We'll see what Spring brings but I currently have two colonies in this number that are on life support at present.

I'll look forward to talking bees with you this Winter. Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Russ

p.s. I reread your reply and decided that maybe I didn't answer the question you were asking... I ended up retaining 1" diameter upper entrances and 1" insulation above the inner cover as the Winter set-up. I intend to experiment with closing-off the upper entrance in conjunction with moving the broodnest down early in the Spring build-up to see if this impels the colonies to set-up their nest in a more conventional manner. It seems based on my experience that the only two things upper entrances (might) be good for are: 

1. Allowing for cleansing flights during marginal weather days.
2. Potentially assisting with condensation control once brood rearing begins in earnest.


----------



## msl

Gray Goose said:


> notching has a couple purposes.


I would argue the main purpose was (and it fails at it ) to direct the bees to raise cells on proper aged larva as that is the #1 factor in raising quality queens 


> : On-the-spot queen rearing utilizes simple techniques as explained in my booklet I.M.N. System of Queen Rearing to direct colonies to rear queen cells anywhere on any frame where there is a 36-hour-or-younger larva


 https://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.pdf

I find it absolutely amazing how little scrutiny Mels claims/concepts have been put under... I guess there is no $$ in proving or disproving it


----------



## Swarmhunter

Litsinger said:


> Jerry:
> 
> My apologies for the delay- I've been away from the computer. It sounds like you've got a good plan for 2021, with plenty of opportunity to yield a dividend for your investment of sweat equity.
> 
> I could take a lesson from you on setting reasonable goals... I feel like I spent most of the past year in reaction mode scrambling to put out the hottest fires.
> 
> As it is, most of the colonies set-up shop in the very top box at the first onset of cool weather and so most are comprised of three (3) 8-frame Illinois hive bodies as follows (from bottom up):
> 
> #1 - Mostly empty with some stored pollen and open nectar.
> 
> #2- Mostly full with a mix of open and closed nectar.
> 
> #3- Mostly full and mostly capped. 23 of 25 colonies have set-up shop in this box.
> 
> We'll see what Spring brings but I currently have two colonies in this number that are on life support at present.
> 
> I'll look forward to talking bees with you this Winter. Merry Christmas to you and your family.
> 
> Russ
> 
> p.s. I reread your reply and decided that maybe I didn't answer the question you were asking... I ended up retaining 1" diameter upper entrances and 1" insulation above the inner cover as the Winter set-up. I intend to experiment with closing-off the upper entrance in conjunction with moving the broodnest down early in the Spring build-up to see if this impels the colonies to set-up their nest in a more conventional manner. It seems based on my experience that the only two things upper entrances (might) be good for are:
> 
> 1. Allowing for cleansing flights during marginal weather days.
> 2. Potentially assisting with condensation control once brood rearing begins in earnest.


Russ I agree with your assessment that upper entrances might assist with spring brood rearing but the effects an upper entrance during cold winters can be detrimental. These ideas coincides with Randy Olivers ideas in scientific beekeeping- The Winter, and Hive Design. The idea of having an upper entrance for cleansing flights during warm spells is something the bees seem to need. But the escape of warm air out an upper entrance instead of rotatating down the sidewalls is it's contrary to what the bees are trying to accomplish - Using the least amount of feed to keep the cluster warm and continuing to perform the necessary winter activities. The problem with just a bottom entrance only is it's a long ways down an it has the potential to become clogged with dead bees.
I've compromised .When I put my med.-deep-med. configurations together last spring and summer I spent a lot of time mulling (maybe anguishing) over entrance placement and went with 1 3/4 inch hole at the top of the bottom med. So far the bees seem to love them. No robbing this fall and now during this cold weather the bees were quick to get out for cleansing flights during warm spells. This entrance placement closely resembles the natural entrance to a hive in a tree. The entrance is close to the brood nest but not so high that you have heat loss during the winter.
Time will tell and I'm excited to what march and april will bring. I will be rotating the pollen box with the top med. as my first move when weather permits.
33 of 33 still going. First real winter this week. 15 degrees this morning
Have a good day!
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

Swarmhunter said:


> Russ I agree with your assessment that upper entrances might assist with spring brood rearing but the effects an upper entrance during cold winters can be detrimental.


Jerry: It is interesting to read about your experience and also your commentary regarding Mr. Randy Oliver's input. There is a hearty debate currently underway over at Bee-L concerning upper entrances and it has been interesting to read the opinion of several experienced beekeepers and researchers (including Randy) regarding the relative advantages and disadvantages of upper entrances. After reading all of it, I am left to conclude that, 'it depends'...



Swarmhunter said:


> First real winter this week. 15 degrees this morning


Same here- reminds me that beekeeping is a regional exercise. While we are starting to hunker down, our low last night was a balmy 24 degrees 🥶.

Let's keep the esoteric conversation going this Winter- a good time to let some ideas stew before considering how they might fit in our respective operations.


----------



## Swarmhunter

Litsinger said:


> Jerry: It is interesting to read about your experience and also your commentary regarding Mr. Randy Oliver's input. There is a hearty debate currently underway over at Bee-L concerning upper entrances and it has been interesting to read the opinion of several experienced beekeepers and researchers (including Randy) regarding the relative advantages and disadvantages of upper entrances. After reading all of it, I am left to conclude that, 'it depends'...
> 
> 
> 
> Same here- reminds me that beekeeping is a regional exercise. While we are starting to hunker down, our low last night was a balmy 24 degrees 🥶.
> 
> Let's keep the esoteric conversation going this Winter- a good time to let some ideas stew before considering how they might fit in our respective operations.


I'm looking forward to hearing from other beekeepers who are using alternative hive openings. There are people out there that are using just tops. Michael Bush comes to mind - with just a top and no bottom. That would eliminate the cold air stove pipe effect.
This is my own experiment after years of mediocre wintering percentages. I'm seeing what I'd hoped to see so far.
One of the things that I believe will be a real aid in this closed hive system is having the hive closed and not opened after the heavy Oct. feedings. Give the bees time to seal all the air leaks and don't reopen until you need to - if they get light or March arrives.


----------



## Swarmhunter

Hello everyone. Hope the winter is being kind. A few inches of snow here but there's a lot more to the south of us.
Bees are doing some house cleaning here during warmer spells and the group as a whole seems to be in pretty good shape. The real test will be if the cold they're predicting for the end of the month comes through.
I'm in the process of building some more Nucs this winter. I'm going to use a couple of them for drone colonies. I'm going to start building a couple of drone colonies with new genetics (boughten queens) every year to add diversity to my apiary. There aren't a lot of other beekeepers in my area and I'm hoping putting some beneficial traits into my whole collection will have a positive effect through the years.
One of the reasons why I think this could benefit me more than some beekeepers who tend to hang on to their queens for as many years as possible is my hives all get a fresh newly mated queen every year in May or July after a brood break.
If anyone has any experience putting drone colonies in their mating or Nuc yards - I'd love to hear about the challenges of keeping these colonies putting out drones for the season.
Keep them bees buzzing!
Jerry


----------



## Gray Goose

Swarmhunter said:


> Hello everyone. Hope the winter is being kind. A few inches of snow here but there's a lot more to the south of us.
> Bees are doing some house cleaning here during warmer spells and the group as a whole seems to be in pretty good shape. The real test will be if the cold they're predicting for the end of the month comes through.
> I'm in the process of building some more Nucs this winter. I'm going to use a couple of them for drone colonies. I'm going to start building a couple of drone colonies with new genetics (boughten queens) every year to add diversity to my apiary. There aren't a lot of other beekeepers in my area and I'm hoping putting some beneficial traits into my whole collection will have a positive effect through the years.
> One of the reasons why I think this could benefit me more than some beekeepers who tend to hang on to their queens for as many years as possible is my hives all get a fresh newly mated queen every year in May or July after a brood break.
> If anyone has any experience putting drone colonies in their mating or Nuc yards - I'd love to hear about the challenges of keeping these colonies putting out drones for the season.
> Keep them bees buzzing!
> Jerry


Hi Jerry nice conversation,

I have seen the bees drag our debris including dead bees in the spring.
How will your entrance work on the top of the first medium?
If the bees need to lift the debris seem like it would be more work.
So then do you plan a "spring" visit to tear down and remove the junk off the bottom?
Seems a 3 inch drawer may also help.

BTW I do deep , deep, medium, somewhat similar to your set up,, bottom box has more pollen stores so I allow a bit deeper space, often put "cull" comb there for a year or 2. ones with lots of drone or broke out spots..

GG


----------



## Swarmhunter

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Jerry nice conversation,
> 
> I have seen the bees drag our debris including dead bees in the spring.
> How will your entrance work on the top of the first medium?
> If the bees need to lift the debris seem like it would be more work.
> So then do you plan a "spring" visit to tear down and remove the junk off the bottom?
> Seems a 3 inch drawer may also help.
> 
> BTW I do deep , deep, medium, somewhat similar to your set up,, bottom box has more pollen stores so I allow a bit deeper space, often put "cull" comb there for a year or 2. ones with lots of drone or broke out spots..
> 
> GG


I do med. - deep - med. (Walt Wright configuration) with entrance in the bottom of the deep. No top hole. Bottom box is pollen box. Mediums are rotated May 1st. CB done April 1st. So far so good


----------



## Litsinger

Swarmhunter said:


> I'm going to start building a couple of drone colonies with new genetics (boughten queens) every year to add diversity to my apiary. There aren't a lot of other beekeepers in my area and I'm hoping putting some beneficial traits into my whole collection will have a positive effect through the years.


Jerry:

Happy New Year- and glad to read that all is well in your apiary thus far.

FWIW (not much I might add), I think your idea of carefully importing a little new genetics each year is a sound idea, particularly if it comes from reputable sources and offers the prospect of augmenting the traits you are trying to select for. Given that heterozygosity tends to confer vitality in bees, and this (according to Brother Adam) is the most important trait, it seems prudent to me to always have avenues to impart some 'hybrid vigor' into the base stock, albeit with some caution about unsuitable crosses and outbreeding depression.

I do hope you'll update us from time-to-time on your progress. Sounds like you are making great strides.

Russ


----------



## Swarmhunter

Litsinger said:


> Jerry:
> 
> Happy New Year- and glad to read that all is well in your apiary thus far.
> 
> FWIW (not much I might add), I think your idea of carefully importing a little new genetics each year is a sound idea, particularly if it comes from reputable sources and offers the prospect of augmenting the traits you are trying to select for. Given that heterozygosity tends to confer vitality in bees, and this (according to Brother Adam) is the most important trait, it seems prudent to me to always have avenues to impart some 'hybrid vigor' into the base stock, albeit with some caution about unsuitable crosses and outbreeding depression.
> 
> I do hope you'll update us from time-to-time on your progress. Sounds like you are making great strides.
> 
> Russ


Hi Russ- Yes I am conscious of introducing to much genetic change if things are moving in the direction someone is happy with. My thinking is a couple of drone colonies using mn. hygenics this year. One in my mating yard and one in my home yard. I'll also be putting drone comb on the outsides of my brood chambers. In the hives with queens that I want to promote (wintering strength and Spring build-up) I'll let the drones hatch. In the hives that were mediocre or poor I'll destroy drones for at least most of the season, then I'll let them fill those frames with honey later in the year. I haven't ordered the mn. hygenics yet I might just use the very best of my own stock for the drone colonies.
I would love to put some of the mite resistant traits of the Russian bees into my bees but I don't think with what I'm doing ( I need early Spring build up for Nuc sales) that's the right bee for me.
Maybe we'll miss that extended colder spell this year. I sure hope so!
Happy New year to you too!
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

Swarmhunter said:


> I haven't ordered the mn. hygenics yet I might just use the very best of my own stock for the drone colonies.


To be honest, I am a little out-of-touch with the current status of the Minnesota Hygienic program- it almost sounds as if Dr. Spivak would maybe suggest you work with your own colonies that demonstrate hygienic behavior if you asked her opinion:

_"We are now returning to our original goal of having queen producers and interested beekeepers select for this trait from among their own, tried-and-true stocks of bees."_



https://www.beelab.umn.edu/sites/beelab.umn.edu/files/new-direction.pdf



Not trying to steer you in a particular direction, just thought you might appreciate this perspective if you weren't familiar with it yet.

As of yesterday I saw both Eastern Bluebirds and Robins in abundance, about a week earlier than last year. If the 'polar vortex' doesn't materialize later this month, I wonder if we might be about ready to turn the corner?


----------



## Swarmhunter

Litsinger said:


> To be honest, I am a little out-of-touch with the current status of the Minnesota Hygienic program- it almost sounds as if Dr. Spivak would maybe suggest you work with your own colonies that demonstrate hygienic behavior if you asked her opinion:
> 
> _"We are now returning to our original goal of having queen producers and interested beekeepers select for this trait from among their own, tried-and-true stocks of bees."_
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.beelab.umn.edu/sites/beelab.umn.edu/files/new-direction.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to steer you in a particular direction, just thought you might appreciate this perspective if you weren't familiar with it yet.
> 
> As of yesterday I saw both Eastern Bluebirds and Robins in abundance, about a week earlier than last year. If the 'polar vortex' doesn't materialize later this month, I wonder if we might be about ready to turn the corner?


Russ- Not as out of touch as I am! When I read your response it prompted me to call the people I know from the Minn. Bee Club and they confirmed what the article inferred. Glad you pointed it out to me.
The supplier I was thinking about getting the drone mother queens from has been using Mn. Hygenics - open mated in S.E. Minn. for several years - then selling queens from that local stock. He told me that for the last couple years that he has been using the best of his own queens for queen mothers. He's only 50 miles north of me . With the way he's been running his breeding program I'm not so sure he wouldn't have a good fit for a slow mix with mine. Have to think about it a spell. It's that or just stick with using the best of my stock.
Thanks again for the info. Snow coming tomorrow. 
Have a good day!
Jerry


----------



## Litsinger

Swarmhunter said:


> With the way he's been running his breeding program I'm not so sure he wouldn't have a good fit for a slow mix with mine.


Jerry:

Makes sense to me. What with being locally-adapted and having similar objectives this sounds like a great option IMHO.

If nothing else, it seems there would be little risk to try a few queens out and see how they compare side-by-side with your current stock.

I'll look forward to reading your future updates- have a great week.

Russ


----------



## AR1

msl said:


> I would argue the main purpose was (and it fails at it ) to direct the bees to raise cells on proper aged larva as that is the #1 factor in raising quality queens
> https://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.pdf
> 
> I find it absolutely amazing how little scrutiny Mels claims/concepts have been put under... I guess there is no $$ in proving or disproving it


I tried it on several hives last year, but didn't see where the bees paid the slightest attention to my helpful notches. They made lots of queen cells, just not where I had notched. Quite possibly I did something wrong, or there is a trick I missed or misunderstood. 

At any rate I got all the queens I wanted last year, in fact way too many. I have not matured as a beekeeper to the point where I can kill queens or queen cells without a qualm.


----------



## msl

AR1 said:


> I tried it on several hives last year, but didn't see where the bees paid the slightest attention to my helpful notches. They made lots of queen cells, just not where I had notched. Quite possibly I did


That has been many peoples experience, expicaly on foundationless.


----------



## JWPalmer

Notching back to the midrib on new foundationless comb could be quite a challenge. This would be where the Miller Method should work best. After all, it is harder to do on plastic or when those pesky wires get in the way.


----------



## AR1

msl said:


> That has been many peoples experience, expicaly on foundationless.


I was using foundation, plastic. 

I expect to try it again, just to have fun playing around, but merely for the purpose of making a few dozen queens, I don't need it. Given the chance bees make lots of queen cells all by themselves.


----------

