# wax dipping tank design



## Rader Sidetrack

There are several alternatives to a "_doughnut_" style tank. One is to put some concrete blocks in the middle of a rectangular tank to reduce some of the wax required. Alternatively, since hive bodies are not square, you can insert one hive body the "short" way into one (or two) bodies sitting flat in the tank.

You may find this document on dippping hive bodies useful: https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/01-051.pdf


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## KevinR

I considered building a donut tank, but the extra effort and decrease amount of wax might lower it's effectiveness. 

I.e. when your dipping, you would lose more wax quicker, when the pool is smaller.

I'm not sure if you would have any problem with heating the wax, since it might not be able to boil efficiently. I should have a 24x24x24" tank in the couple weeks. Thought process being that it would provide enough depth to do 2 boxes plus misc items in the middle and allow for wax's volume increasing. I haven't calculated the volume of the supers, so 24 high might not be quite enough to account for the rise of the wax. *shrugs*


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## Ben Little

the volume of your tank , how much wax do you need for it ?


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## KevinR

This is pretty similar to the setup that I plan on using... If you figure out 2 inches around the side of a box and 4-6 inches above it.. Should give you a rough idea on the volume...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5UUJT8ooVE


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## beeware10

are you sure ya want to dip supers in your area? they last forever but the insulating quality of wood is lost as the wax fills the pours in the wood. may make wintering difficult.


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## westernbeekeeper

beeware10 said:


> are you sure ya want to dip supers in your area? they last forever but the insulating quality of wood is lost as the wax fills the pours in the wood. may make wintering difficult.


...and I get 5 gallons of exterior paint for $15. Hmm...I would like to give dipping a try though, but just can't justify it yet.


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## KevinR

I'm just looking to find a way to make the bee boxes last longer. Perhaps it was the type of wood or the wood working technique. 

But I have quite a few that expand/contract that break the glue or pull apart at the seams, whether they are painted or not. This year I'm going with all cypress wood, so I'm hoping that it's more stable than pine.

I'm not really concerned about the insulation factor... From what I can tell, if you keep them dry and fed.. They can survive. Maybe that changes significantly in the northern states, but I'm not to worried about it here. 

*shrugs*


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## Ben Little

beeware10 said:


> are you sure ya want to dip supers in your area? they last forever but the insulating quality of wood is lost as the wax fills the pours in the wood. may make wintering difficult.


I am new to wax dipping, and I am a little curious as to where you read/heard that wax replacing pores in wood makes it lose it's R value ? If it is still wrapped with plastic wrap , I don't understand why it would matter if it was waxed or not.

Just curious .

Ben


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## FlashGordon

I don't think the insulating properties of the wood would be affected as the wax will only penetrate 2 to 5mm depending on the dwell time. In will penetrate more on the cut end but I think it's negligible


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## Steves1967

I made mine two inches bigger in all dimensions than a deep. I should have made it four. I immerse the wooden ware at 240f for 13 minutes and wax goes all the way to the center of the wood. I cut a couple boards after waxing to check.


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## KevinR

What is your wax mixture ratio? I'm assuming your using paraffin and rosin?


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## Steves1967

50/50 paraffin and some microcrystalline that was a close out at a pattern supply shop.


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## Michael Bush

Without a "donut" in the middle the level of wax rises very little when adding boxes. With the "donut" in the middle the level of wax rises dramatically when adding boxes. In the long run the level of wax is much easier to manage with a regular box, but yes, it takes more to fill it at first. You can also fit a box on end in the middle. With ten frame deeps you can fit one ten frame deep on end in the middle of two ten frame deeps stacked up. With ten frame mediums you can fit two ten frame mediums on end in the middle of three ten frame mediums stacked up. With eight frame mediums you can fit one eight frame medium on end in the middle of three eight frame mediums stacked up...


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## Ben Little

So does any of you actually dip your boxes ? If so please tell me how much wax you use in your tank and if you can , please tell me the size of the tank and how many supers you do at a time.

Main reason is that paraffin and micro 50/50 is around 3.80/pound ! but I am sure it could be cheaper somewhere in Canada ?!?

Thanks


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## Michael Bush

I might build it differently if I were making it, I bought it already made and it was designed for ten frame boxes. But mine is about 18" wide by 24" long by 22" tall. I don't fill it full, of course but I calculate takes about 230 pounds of wax/rosin to fill it full enough to use. I'm running 2 parts beeswax to 1 part gum rosin. It dips one and two halves of a box each batch. The bottom box is the only one that is done. The one on top of that is half done, the one in the middle is on end and it's half done. Then I put a new box on the bottom, flip the top box to get the other half and the center box to get the other half and cook again. I would prefer it was deep enough to do four one shot... which would be a stack of three with one down the middle on end...


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## Myron Denny

This question is for Ben Little:
Did you come up with a design for a wax or paraffin dipping tank that works?
Will you share it with me? [email protected],com


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## Ben Little

Myron Denny said:


> This question is for Ben Little:
> Did you come up with a design for a wax or paraffin dipping tank that works?
> Will you share it with me? [email protected],com


It's on my to do list 

I have a local machine shop that is going to build it for me and when it is done I will share it on here. If you want to, you can see up to date things on our Facebook page, you don't have to belong to facebook to see things.

Ben


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## Myron Denny

Michael Bush:
How many medium boxs does the 230 lbs of bees wax and Gum Rosin treat?
I use deep boxs, how many deeps will 230 lbs of wax and Gum Rosin treat?
How much head room on top do you reccomend?
Do you use a lid when you are treating?
In short, how much does it cost per new medium box?
Myron Denny


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## Myron Denny

There is a youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5UUJT8ooVE on dipping woodenware that is very interesting. I have questions regarding what I am seeing. Is there some way these people can be contacted to answer these questions? 

Are they hot dipping with beeswax or paraffin?

Are they using other additives in their hot dipping mix

They are applying paint shortly after the liquid treatment, are they using some kind of Latex to paint with? It seems to take 30 seconds, they put on the second coat in less time.

They are using jigs that hold the wood for stapling and painting that should help with speed.

It appears that they are taking the woodenware straight from treating and applying paint to it. They list no reasoning to their procedure. Does it add years to the woodlife?


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## Michael Bush

I can estimate the volume and estimate the weight from there, so it's probably over 200 pounds in the tank. So it's probably 60 to 70 pounds of rosin and 120 to 140 pounds of beesawax. I just do it by eye. I don't measure it. The Rosin I got was from Mann Lake and came in a cardboard drum in one solid piece. I use a hammer to break it up (beating on the outside of the drum) and throw the chunks in. In dipping about 500 8 frame medium boxes and another 100 nucs or so and 150 bottom boards and 150 covers or so I went through 150 pounds of rosin and probably 300 pounds of beeswax. But there is still about 200 pounds of the mixture in the tank. So I probably only "used up" 250 pounds or so of the mixture. When I was running low on beeswax I'd throw in more rosin. When I was running low on rosin I'd throw in more beeswax. It probably was a range from 1:1 rosin to beeswax to 1:3 rosin to beeswax. Nothing else was added.


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## Myron Denny

I have watched the YouTube Miso Ivkovic did several times. What I don't understand is they are painting the waxed boxes 2 times while they are still hot from the cooking. I would think the treated wood would still be too wet or slippery that soon after cooking. Also when you add up the costs involved, is it cost effective? There is a service that is doing custom dipping for $50 per deep box, is it worth that kind of cost? Will it extrend the wood life that long? I totally understand your method (Michael Bush), I am guessing the foreign version is lots cooler???


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## Ben Little

$50.00 per box? ? ? That is way too much money for a wax dipped box ! Or did you mean 5.00 per box to dip them ?
Check out FW Jones/ Propolis-etc for waxed boxes assembled
Here is the link >> http://www.propolis-etc.ca/assets/img/propolis-etc-2014.pdf


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## Myron Denny

Prices; Brood box $50, Med box $40, Shallow box $30, Bottom board $40.
These are the main pieces to focus on dipping in Bees Wax.
Remember, you'll never have to paint again! What is that worth to you?

These are not my price's, they are taken from a local service!

I am guessing by limiting the amount of wax and rosin is why the Miso Ivkovic cook pot is smaller???


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## Ben Little

I want to dip my equipment but I was just wondering if those were your prices, I don't know where you shop but they are a lot cheaper then those prices. I think FW Jones has their deeps @ 27.00 for just 1 and less as the quantity goes up 

Just trying too help out with options


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## Myron Denny

I am still wondering about what I see in the youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5UUJT8ooVE
Ben Little, have you watched the above Youtube? I looked at the FW Jones beekeeping catalog, I do not speak or understand French or whatever language it is written in. I never did get to the portion that pertains to hot dipping. I am putting hot dipping on hold until I can see that it is feasible.

Barry, Can you come up with an address for "Miso Ivkovic"?
Who ever was narating the Miso Ivkovic Youtube I could almost understand.


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## Rader Sidetrack

There is a USA vendor that offers wax dipped hive bodies at $25.

http://store.countryrubes.com/hivebodies.aspx

The are located in Northern CA, so shipping to OK is a factor, but I would expect that the delivered cost would be more affordable than the $50 mentioned above. Shipping to NS Canada may not be cost effective.


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## Ben Little

I have seen it, lots of ways to dip boxes aren't there
The price list I sent is both English and French. either way, you should be able to find boxes like Rader Sidetrack mentioned.


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## Ben Little

duplicate post


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## Myron Denny

There is an article titled: Revisiting Paraffin Dipping in Context of an Integrated Pest Management Approach for Control of American Foulbrood 
by Jean-Pierre Chapleau & Les Reines Chapleau
http://www.apinovar.com/articles/paraffin.en.html
It is well worth the read!!!
Do any of you know how much different the Brittish version of paraffin is from USA paraffin?


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## newbury

As a new beekeeper with 3 new sets of of unused hives I'm interested in the wax bath method versus painting.
The doughnut approach makes sense to me, especially if you place something in the center that has mass so the tanks temperature is more stable.

But why are they all vats designed to submerge an entire hive? Is it just to save time for processing a lot of hives? 

I was wondering if for me a big deep frying pan approach would make more sense. Something big enough to submerse one side at a time several inches deep for long enough, then I'd turn it for another side. I realize that might take an hour per hive but I'm not in a rush. However, if I want to do a mix of gum rosin/paraffin and need 200 lbs for a big vat it would be very costly for just 3 hives.

Anybody have links for this approach?

I was also wondering about doing the wax dip BEFORE I put the hive body together when I get more (unassembled) hive bodies.


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## Acebird

You can do one side at a time but as you suspected it will take you 4 times longer.


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## Rader Sidetrack

>> I was also wondering about doing the wax dip BEFORE I put the hive body together when I get more (unassembled) hive bodies.

If you dip components before assembling, you surely won't be able to _glue _the the hive bodies together. And while I haven't dipped any any woodenware, I would be concerned that with individually dipped components (assuming finger/box joints) it may be difficult to assemble due to wax reducing the clearances for each finger.


If you are considering dipping boxes on the scale of a backyard hobbyist, I suspect that by the time you get done, buying assembled, dipped boxes may be more cost effective. Country Rubes is one option for purchasing dipped woodenware: 

http://store.countryrubes.com/hivebodies.aspx


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## Michael Bush

>As a new beekeeper with 3 new sets of of unused hives I'm interested in the wax bath method versus painting.
The doughnut approach makes sense to me, especially if you place something in the center that has mass so the tanks temperature is more stable.

It's just harder to maintain a set level and not spill over as adding a box changes the level dramatically with the doghnut approach.

>But why are they all vats designed to submerge an entire hive? Is it just to save time for processing a lot of hives? 

My dipping set up cooks 1 and 2 halves of a box. The bottom box is immersed. The next box is half immersed. The box in the center on end is half immersed. After cooking ten minutes The bottom box comes out, a new box goes on the bottom the half immersed one gets flipped upside down, the one in the center gets flipped to the other end and after that batch cooks all of them come out. But each spell of cooking takes 10 minutes. If I have to spend 40 minutes to do one box it's just not worth the effort to dip. 

>I was wondering if for me a big deep frying pan approach would make more sense. Something big enough to submerse one side at a time several inches deep for long enough, then I'd turn it for another side. I realize that might take an hour per hive but I'm not in a rush. 

But due to fire hazard and boiling over hazard you really can't leave it. You have to stand there (or get a chair you are not attached to and sit there) for the entire time.

>However, if I want to do a mix of gum rosin/paraffin and need 200 lbs for a big vat it would be very costly for just 3 hives.

Yes it would be. I never bothered with a dipping tank until I have several hundred to do.

>I was also wondering about doing the wax dip BEFORE I put the hive body together when I get more (unassembled) hive bodies.

I tried it and it just wasn't worth it. You would have to put spacers between the boards and then bind them together to get it to work. When I put them in without spacers the wax never went between the boards.

>In the wax-dipping-tank-design thread I asked why one had to wax the entire box at one time but have not seen a response yet.

Here you go.


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## Acebird

newbury said:


> I was wondering if for me a big deep frying pan approach would make more sense.


If you could find a deep fryer big enough and cheap enough it would be good because it is thermostatically controlled. Doing one side at a time you will have a small volume of hot wax so that will be another wait every time you add wax for it to heat up. Using a controlled heat source and determining what the wax consumption for each side is I think you can get away with doing something else during cook time. It would be no more dangerous than doing a batch of french fries. I would assemble the boxes first if I were doing it.

Michael it probably takes the average hobby person 40 minutes to paint a box anyway.


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## Michael Bush

>Michael it probably takes the average hobby person 40 minutes to paint a box anyway.

Seriously? I guess if you get carried away doing all the edges etc...


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## Acebird

Well you are only going to do 2 or 3 and at bare minimum you should do two coats, I do three, and then you have to clean brushes. Now if you were going to do 50 boxes you could spray them in an hour. That is the difference between a hobby and a business. Time is of no concern.


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## newbury

Acebird said:


> You can do one side at a time but as you suspected it will take you 4 times longer.


Thanks for all the replies.
Time is an existential thing. If I have to process something to a certain point and then wait X minutes if X is > 10 I generally go do something else. I don't like to watch grass grow. So from my point of view the time difference is what it takes me to rotate the box to get all four sides. If it takes 15 minutes to "cook" all at once or 65 minutes doing 1 side at a time with 5 minutes for flipping my involvement is only an extra 5 minutes. 

I would set up the process so there is virtually NO fire hazard using an electric stove element to heat the wax, not a flame. That way I could just "let it simmer" after it "cooked" or put it on a timer.

But now that the "tap your hive" thing has come along I'm not even sure if I'm going to be running deeps or what 

Again thanks for the replies.

I like the idea of big tanks with burners (more power, like using my diesel dually to haul a dozen 2x4's) but it seems overkill to me.


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## snl

Newbury,
You need to let us know what (if anything) you do........along with pics........


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## Acebird

newbury said:


> I would set up the process so there is virtually NO fire hazard using an electric stove element to heat the wax, not a flame.


If the stove element is not controlled by a thermostat it could get much hotter than the flash point of wax so the possibility of a fire may exist.


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## newbury

westernbeekeeper said:


> ...and I get 5 gallons of exterior paint for $15. Hmm...I would like to give dipping a try though, but just can't justify it yet.


That's a really good price, around me they've gone up to $9/gallon for the "whoops" paint. And usually they are darker colors.



Acebird said:


> If the stove element is not controlled by a thermostat it could get much hotter than the flash point of wax so the possibility of a fire may exist.


I'll probably MacGyver it to start. 
I've a spare electric range in my shop that I can position safely (even outside) plenty of 60Amp 240V outlets and adequate extension cords (for my welder) to get it outside. Take 1 Rectangular Roaster, 21.25 by 14 by 8.5-Inch, add wax and rosin to cover, cook till tender.

But that's just the plan.


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## Acebird

newbury said:


> I'll probably MacGyver it to start.
> I've a spare electric range in my shop that I can position safely (even outside) plenty of 60Amp 240V outlets and adequate extension cords (for my welder) to get it outside.


If you can weld you can fashion a hot plate where the oven element is underneath the plate with the thermocouple controlling the temp and being protect from spillage of wax. Remember the element can get red hot which will flash wax.


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## newbury

Acebird said:


> If you can weld you can fashion a hot plate where the oven element is underneath the plate with the thermocouple controlling the temp and being protect from spillage of wax. Remember the element can get red hot which will flash wax.


Thanks but I'm not trying to set up a production shop for hundreds of hives. Right now I'm really only thinking of 2 new "to be assembled" hives.

Plus I'm wondering if it might work if I just dipped the wood in wax then stuck it in a hot oven if the wax would soak in enough.


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## newbury

Seems others have suggested one side at a time:


Michael Bush said:


> <snip>
> Another option would be to build the tank 50" x 24" by 6" and only fill it 2" deep. Then rotate the box in the wax one side at a time (boiling each side for ten minutes), and then stand it on end to get the ends. That would only take 83 pounds of wax and five times as long to dip it.


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## Michael Bush

>Seems others have suggested one side at a time...

I wasn't suggesting it. Just saying that it would take five times as long but it could work...


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## newbury

Michael Bush said:


> >Seems others have suggested one side at a time...
> 
> I wasn't suggesting it. Just saying that it would take five times as long but it could work...


Well I wish I had found that comment earlier and it would have saved me some concern that I would be doing things wrong.

Today, is the general consensus that submersion time should be 15 minutes?

/edit - and for those wondering about the costs I got a quote from Mann Lake for paraffin and rosin.


> Mann Lake sells both rosin and paraffin as follows:
> item #HD-900 PARAFFIN $1.99/lb.
> item # HD-910 ROSIN $2.59/lb. (25 lb. minimum)


It wasn't on their web site and the nice lady had to go look it up.


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## Mbeck

I just started to dip, I'm thinking 280-300 degrees for 10 minutes is going to be the sweet spot.

Smaller amounts of rosin can be purchased here and I think with shipping calculated in they may be cheaper than ML on larger orders.It's also made in America if anyone cares about that. 

http://diamondgforestproducts.net/shop/50-lbs-rock-style-pine-gum-rosin/


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## newbury

Mbeck said:


> I just started to dip, I'm thinking 280-300 degrees for 10 minutes is going to be the sweet spot.
> 
> Smaller amounts of rosin can be purchased here and I think with shipping calculated in they may be cheaper than ML on larger orders.It's also made in America if anyone cares about that.
> 
> http://diamondgforestproducts.net/shop/50-lbs-rock-style-pine-gum-rosin/


Probably depends where you are at. As an example for me for ML to ship 59 pounds of Pro-Sweet to my door the shipping estimate was $27, or about $0.50/lb for shipping, thus about $3.10/lb total. That 50lb bag from your link was about $4/lb. It looked like one had to get up to 100 lbs or more for a real savings.
Searching Amazon and the web it seems food grade paraffin wax in quantities under 100 lbs is running about $2.50/lb delivered just about equal to ML's prices delivered to MY house in Virginia.


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## Steves1967

Be sure to leave several inches above the liquid wax level for foaming when you buy or construct a tank.


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## Michael Bush

>Today, is the general consensus that submersion time should be 15 minutes?

At 250 degrees F (122 C), 6 to 8 minutes worked fine. At 230 degrees F (110 C) it takes more like 10 to 12. Any colder won't work well at all.


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## Michael Bush

Yes, you need a couple of inches all the way around, including height to handle the foaming so it doesn't boil over.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdipping.htm


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## newbury

Michael Bush said:


> Yes, you need a couple of inches all the way around, including height to handle the foaming so it doesn't boil over.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdipping.htm


Well, I'm planning on trying the Rectangular Roaster, 21.25 by 14 by 8.5-Inch sold by target and Amazon for $30, so although it will be tight on length I should have plenty of depth. 
And since I'm only putting rosin and wax in it I also plan on using it for turkeys and such if it's easy to clean. 
Maybe even a batch of mead.


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## dynemd

newbury said:


> Well, I'm planning on trying the Rectangular Roaster, 21.25 by 14 by 8.5-Inch sold by target and Amazon for $30, so although it will be tight on length I should have plenty of depth.
> And since I'm only putting rosin and wax in it I also plan on using it for turkeys and such if it's easy to clean.
> Maybe even a batch of mead.


That roaster is only 5 inches deep...


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## Steves1967

newbury said:


> Well, I'm planning on trying the Rectangular Roaster, 21.25 by 14 by 8.5-Inch sold by target and Amazon for $30, so although it will be tight on length I should have plenty of depth.
> And since I'm only putting rosin and wax in it I also plan on using it for turkeys and such if it's easy to clean.
> Maybe even a batch of mead.


That is not enough depth and you will never get it clean, sorry.


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## Acebird

Michael Bush said:


> Yes, you need a couple of inches all the way around, including height to handle the foaming so it doesn't boil over.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdipping.htm


Michael does the foaming subside once the moisture is boiled off?


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## Acebird

Steves1967 said:


> That is not enough depth and you will never get it clean, sorry.


Maybe he wants to wax his turkey. OH no I got that wrong. It's wax your chicken isn't it?


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## Michael Bush

>Michael does the foaming subside once the moisture is boiled off?

The moisture does not all boil off. You just quit after a while. It subsides when you take the boxes out... it foams more as it gets hotter, so usually it's the other way around. It increases as the boxes warm up which allows the wax to warm up.


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## Acebird

Michael Bush said:


> It increases as the boxes warm up which allows the wax to warm up.


Ah yes, I can imagine that happening seeing as how the wax/ hot oil is not going to get to the center of the board and exhaust all the moisture.


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## Steves1967

When I have done mine I dropped in test pieces of lumber and then sawed them in half later to check wax penetration. That's how I arrived at my own figures of 240f for 15 minutes.


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## newbury

That's like cutting a weld to ee if you got penetration.
Good practice.


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