# Powdered Sugar



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Once it becomes warm enough for the bees to make regular cleansing flights the corn starch in the powdered sugar will not be a problem.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I haven't had a problem so far. Others may have different experiences.


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## yamahawg (May 19, 2010)

My personal choice would be to go without the corn starch if able to. I dusted one time last year without, the 2nd time I was ready to, couldn't find the pure without, so had no choice.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

We buy the costco 50# bag of powdered sugar. They all have a little cornstarch in them.
Wife, & I do the 15 minute mite count after dusting. Its similar to a 24 hour count in my opinion. We're having good luck applying it with a screen kitchen colander. I'm against brushing a screen top, as I think it damages the bees that are clinging to the screen.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I was re-reading Randy Oliver's site on powdered sugar (ps) and wondering what interval of treatment ps users find best, and whether it is best spring and fall or when? He was talking about intervals of two weeks to get the mites that emerge from the brood. Thanks.


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> I was re-reading Randy Oliver's site on powdered sugar (ps) and wondering what interval of treatment ps users find best, and whether it is best spring and fall or when? He was talking about intervals of two weeks to get the mites that emerge from the brood. Thanks.


As Randy suggested, this year I'm going with drone wax removal and sugar dusting at the same time. Already built drone frames like his.
To avoid starch I make my own powder sugar by grinding granulated sugar in the kitchen blender.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

MARBIS said:


> As Randy suggested, this year I'm going with drone wax removal and sugar dusting at the same time. Already built drone frames like his.
> ...


The acids concepts always invoke magical ceremonies of drones killing.


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

sjj said:


> The acids concepts always invoke magical ceremonies of drones killing.


Only with a sweetener


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I installed a drone frame like Randy's a few weeks ago. The bees have already filled it in. Put it in the #4 position.

Randy says powdered sugar once per week will not lower you're mite counts. It takes more then once per week to get #s down. I use the PS 15 minute test for testing. If my numbers are high in Aug. we hit the bees 3 times a week with PS for a few weeks.


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

KQ6AR said:


> I installed a drone frame like Randy's a few weeks ago. The bees have already filled it in. Put it in the #4 position.
> 
> Randy says powdered sugar once per week will not lower you're mite counts. It takes more then once per week to get #s down. I use the PS 15 minute test for testing. If my numbers are high in Aug. we hit the bees 3 times a week with PS for a few weeks.


The best I can do with dusting is once a week, my apiary is 100 miles from Toronto (150 km) Planned to do MAQS in August, to get ready for winter.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

My bees are in my back yard, so not a problem for me.
Hope the strips work for you.


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

Thanks, hope my apiary becomes my back yard one day, working on it


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

The ideal is two week intervals. The latest American Bee Journal, Volume 151 No.3, March 2011, has an article "Managing Varroa" that says what I have been saying for years. "A 2009 study out of Florida . . . "did not significantly reduce the total number of mites.. there were no significant differences in mite populations between dusted and undusted colonies."" double quotes because the article is quoting the University of Florida study. If you are going to dust, skip every other month so the mites do not adapt and increase reproduction rate as the study found.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

However Mr. America, I looked on Randy Oliver's Scientific Beekeeping Site and found that he referred to the same Florida study and then quoted this:
"Does this mean PS should not be used in whole colony dustings? In the October 09 in Amer. Bee Jour., Jerry Hayes, one of the authors of the FL study, in his monthly Q&A column answered a letter from Janet Brisson of CA on whether PS works or not as follow :“Yes research results showed that varroa was not significantly controlled by dusting with PS. Within the parameters of their research, PS didn’t work great. But that does not mean that if the research trial were re-structured to treat more often or in a different way that results would not be different….research shows it doesn’t work long term. But, in real world situations it does. What to do? I’d treat with PS until research catches up with reality.” 
Funnily enough it was Mr. Hendrickson's article that made me resurrect this thread; I was pondering what those who feel they are succeeding with PS are doing?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

One of the speakers at the Arkansas State Association meeting last October was an inspector from Florida. He said that to rid a colony of varroa you needed to dust it at 3 day intervals for 21 days. This was if the colony had sealed brood that would contain varroa. 

If all sealed brood was removed dusting 3 days in a row should get all the mites that are on the adult bees. If done along with drone brood removal sugar dusting should work ok. Using the new Hopguard will accomplish the same goal but I don't know if the beta-acids will build up in the comb.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

AR, thanks. That makes sense.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

If My numbers start getting High, I powder 3 times a week for a few weeks. It does help.


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## PDG honey (Jul 31, 2010)

I suggest another treatment other than sugar dusting. Thymol, or requeen with better genetics. The sugar is not what kills the mites. It is that the queen stops laying untill the bees clean up the mess. Cutting out a lifecycle. I suggest if you do sugar dust. Take your queen out of the hive put her in a 5 frame nuc. Dust so you don't get a drone layer. Leave queenless, destroy any cells. After a few weeks, add her back to the colony when hive is cleaned up. Do the same for the nuc. Or treat with thymol and the queen will keep on laying. I have seen many hives swarm during a sugar dust treatment which can take up to 3 weeks. You don't want the new queen that came from a powdered hive. Poor diet. Like always my way may not be your way, but I hope I helped someone.lol


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## depdogdave (Mar 21, 2011)

I am returning to beekeeping after many years of being away. I have two hive now and three packages of bees coming. When I keep bees before (1990) . I never heard of powder sugar on the bees. I have a bunch of questions. 

First why does this work? Do the bees groom the sugar and then take the mites off or do the mite hate sugar?

Is the powder sugar a delivery method for something that should be added to the bees? 

I live in central Florida and I have always had capped brood in my hive, do you just keep sugaring the hive for each brood cycle?

What is the best delivery the Dadant puffer thing or a sifter over the brood chamber?


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## PDG honey (Jul 31, 2010)

Dave I might make a few people mad. Powder sugar does make the bees clean themselves. The main reason it helps is because it stops the queen from laying and the bees clean out all the brood. This is why I will not sugar the hive. I will treat with other methods such as thymol, or requeen with better genetics. I recieved a few packages last year, after a few months they had mites. I breed for genetics. I pinched the head and added a VSH Carniolan. The mites level droped in half in 4 weeks and to zero in 6 weeks. There are many ways to deal with mites. I just think powder sugar is not the best option. I have seen people treat just to treat and kill off the hive. The queen will swarm and you will need to requeen. Hope this helps.


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

I thought thymol was for tracheal mites...arent we talking about Varroa? If were suggesting that thymol will work for Varroa as well, then wouldnt that suggest grease patties, the old standby for tracheal mites will work for varroa too? Let me completely understand what your also suggesting PDG, that the bees will remove brood from the hive if contaminated with powdered sugar? I assume you mean open, not capped, correct?


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

How much do you apply per dose per hive?

Thanks


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi,
I've been messing around with PS a few years. My queens don't stop laying, & they don't clean out the brood. After the sugar treatment, the bees clean up the hive of the extra sugar. But that's about it.

I heard Marla Spivak speak last weekend, she doesn't like PS because of the corn starch in it. Another interesting thing she said about it was, They belive besides the mites loosing their grip on the bee because of the powdered sugar, they believe the bees generate heat when they are covered in the dust, & the higher temp causes mites to let go.




PDG honey said:


> Dave I might make a few people mad. Powder sugar does make the bees clean themselves. The main reason it helps is because it stops the queen from laying and the bees clean out all the brood. This is why I will not sugar the hive. I will treat with other methods such as thymol, or requeen with better genetics. I recieved a few packages last year, after a few months they had mites. I breed for genetics. I pinched the head and added a VSH Carniolan. The mites level droped in half in 4 weeks and to zero in 6 weeks. There are many ways to deal with mites. I just think powder sugar is not the best option. I have seen people treat just to treat and kill off the hive. The queen will swarm and you will need to requeen. Hope this helps.


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## PDG honey (Jul 31, 2010)

I buy the 25$ thymol oil from the local health and organic store. 2 ounces to 1 gal water. I put in a spray bottle and lightly mist frames. Apply once per week for two weeks. I tried it out one of my study hives last year and it worked. I heard about the treatment on one of the forums here on beesource. I've heard thyme blooms can help as well. I usually just pinch the queens head and requeen. I also used 2% powder coral. Works very well, but you must requeen. Since the coumaphos dries out the queen. Take all honey supers off when treating with anything.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

PDG honey said:


> ...I might make a few people mad. ....The main reason it helps is because it stops the queen from laying and the bees clean out all the brood. .... I have seen people treat just to treat and kill off the hive. The queen will swarm and you will need to requeen. ...


Your post doesn't make me mad, just puzzled as to how your experience (if your comments are based on experience) is so vastly different than mine. I used powdered sugar treatments regularly last year on all my hives as the sole mite treatment, had very few mites counted in alcohol washes, and had none of the effects that you speak of. No interruption of egg laying, no removing of brood by the workers, no killing of the hive and the only swarm that I had all year was a hive that I bought after Labor Day and it swarmed in about a week (and with no PS treatment.)

So, I am puzzled as to why you feel things will go so very wrong.

Wayne


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

RiodeLobo said:


> How much do you apply per dose per hive?


I started out using about a cup of powdered sugar per hive applied from the top of the hive with a flour sifter but it seemed that so much was wasted. Half-way through the season, I bought a bellows blower and now use only a small fraction of what I was using. The blower is kind of hard to use since you have to stop and shake it after every couple of blasts, but each blast does send an impressive puff of fine sugar up through the hive, coating the bees, only with a finer coat of dust than by dumping sugar on top of them. 

You stick the out-put of the blower though the bottom entrance rather than open the top of the hive, so it's fast to go down a line of hives and treat, especially if you need to do it frequently.

Wayne


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Any suggestions on make or model for the bellows duster?

Thanks


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I bought mine from Brushy Mountain. I don't know of any other models available since all the ones I've seen from various dealers looked to be the same.

Wayne


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## depdogdave (Mar 21, 2011)

This is some great information. My next thing is. How does this work? I get that people have had mixed results. It seem for the most part that it works. 

Now do y'all add thymol to the powder sugar?

Also if you are concerned about corn starch in the sugar couldn't you just make your own?

Right now I'm just asking about Verroa mites.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

It works in 3 ways.
The mites loose their grip because of the sugar & fall off.
The bees groom more because of the sugar dust.
Something I just heard last weekend, was the bees generate more heat because of the dust all over them, & the heat causes mites to fall off.

Occasional use of PS as you're only mite control will not be enough to control mites, unless you have some very good bees.

I think most people use the PS as a less invasive way to reduce mite levels. Then switch to Thymol, Formic, or Oxolic, or let the hive die, if the PS doesn't do the job.

You can grind you're own cane sugar.

PDF Honey, you didn't upset me either, just wondering where you got you're info. I've been reading everything I get my hands on for the last 4 years, & have never seen it before.


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## PDG honey (Jul 31, 2010)

Hey guys. Yes this is from my own experiance. I buy new mated queens every year since I am a queenbreeder. I split down my own hives and take the queenless hives to new yards and place the new queen. I do test on the new hives for the year. I do counts on Varroa and tracheal mites, diseases, build ups, SHB damage, treatments, winter loses and other various test. I also help out all my local customers. I have full range customers from commercial to organic hobbiest. Two years ago I had 30 test hives with high Varroa mite counts. So I split it up with treatments. 10 I just pinched the head off the queen and replaced her with VSH. This was my best results. Mite count dropped to 0 in 6 weeks. 10 test hives I sugar dusted with 2 cups above each brood chamber. Brushing the sugar down on them. The bees become hygenic and start cleaning each other. They started pulling brood out. The queen stopped laying completely. A week later I treated again, and the next week as well. Mite counts dropped quickly. Everyone I sugar dusted swarmed. Big loses. The other 10 I treated with a treatment containing coumaphos. This dries the queen and the bees draw a cell. Less loses but didn't like the outcome. I destroyed cells and replace with mated queens. Ok like I said before I help out customers as well. Recently I treated a customers hive with thymol. I heard great things about it killing Varro mites. So I gave it a try on Josh's hive with his approval. He swaped over to russians for there supposedly great characteristics.lol 4 weeks ago I mixed 2ounces thymol to 1 gal. water. Misted all the frames once every week for 3 weeks. His mite count dropped to 0 after the second app. Just checked him out yesterday and has strong boxes of bees with no mites and has the same marked queen. Still laying strong. Now after all that said. I live in Mississippi. My situation may be different from yours. Hope this helps.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

We also noted a break I'm brood cycles in study colonies that were dusted on a weekly basis back in 97. The shutdown was between 12 and 36 hrs and the hygienic colonies removed all uncapped brood. These tests were early stage, so different amounts were used in each study... absconding was noted mainly during the hotter months and was more related to the amount if ps vs the numbers in the colonies... temps did indeed increase in each study colony immediately following each dusting and continued for an average of 36 hrs. 

Most likely the differences in the effects that pdg has had as opposed to the others mentioned here were due to timing and application method and amount... the heavy dusting of two cups poured or sifted directly onto brood frames and nurse bees causes quite a mess in the brood chambers, thus the queens were not finding any suitable locations to lay and the young bees were cleaning out ps and brood alike and the queen was not being fed as consistently as she should due to the covering of the qmp by all of the dust... 

I think Dan hit the nail on the head when he said that ps alone would not be enough to combat varroa, and certainly not for a commercial operation that is dependant on heavy colonies of productive, focussed bees... 

Thymol has been winning a ton of praises for varroa control, and would certainly get my vote if I needed to treat... there are several threads here that detail safe feeding methods for using thyme oil and oregano oil in spring and again in fall... the intent is for the nurses to feed traces of thyme oil and oregano oil to the open brood, thus killing the mites before the cells are ever capped... as it is used for human consumption, and has no known effect on the bees, it is certainly worth looking into for anyone that is trying to fight the mites with the least invasive methods possible...

Hope this helps!


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## PDG honey (Jul 31, 2010)

I checked my bottle of organic thyme, its pretty weak compared to the thyme oil I puchased today. Its only going to take about 2 drops per 5 gal. of water.lol I'm going to do some more research. I'd like to see what oregano oil affects on varroa.


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