# Need to treat for Varroa in a Warre



## grantsbees

Hey All,

I have a 4-box tall Warre hive. Still a strong colony. Got about 90 mites on the sticky board during a 24-hour period.
Does anyone here have any advice on treating a Warre hive? I've read about the powdered sugar and heard mixed results.

Anything else?

Thanks!


----------



## janellesHoneyRockets

Hello, I'm a 3 rd year and I have the same problem right now, my bee mentor gave me formic acid. it works really well. I'm going to retreat this week. and hope my girls goe into winter strong.


----------



## grantsbees

How did you apply it?


----------



## hubba bubba

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXVsreNT3X0


----------



## lostboy

I treated with oxalic acid using a vaporizer, 3 times 7 days apart, supposed to do the trick, at least that's what I was told from local beeks. I didn't check my mite count before or after but saw dead mites on a piece of plastic board I slipped into the hive bottom after the treatments. I put a plastic separator between one of the top boxes to prevent the vapor getting to the honey in there that I'm thinking about harvesting. The president of the Hampden county beekeepers lives close by, he said, you got bees, you got mites treat or else risk losing them, so this was the method I thought was best for me. I treated two warres, one ktbh and one lang.


----------



## grantsbees

Ultimately I've made a conscious decision not to treat. Having a Warre hive is essentially just housing a wild hive with the benefit of harvesting occasionally. I highly respect the efforts of the TF community and accept the consequences of letting the weak fail and the strong survive and thrive.


----------



## Bee14me

grantsbees said:


> Ultimately I've made a conscious decision not to treat. Having a Warre hive is essentially just housing a wild hive with the benefit of harvesting occasionally. I highly respect the efforts of the TF community and accept the consequences of letting the weak fail and the strong survive and thrive.


Exactly my thoughts. Those colonies that survive exhibit beneficial grooming techniques that will be passed on to future generations, instead of having a colony that is dependent on the intervention of pesticides/treatments to survive.


----------



## msl

I tried the only having a few hives TF thing ..complete losses, repeatedly, this year its OAD
Its not like you have a bunch of hives and genetic diversity that your are trying to select from (that's a completely different story). Either your hive has the genetics to survive untreated, or they don't, not treating them won't magically cause them to become resistant to mites. 
You don't leave a chihuahua on chain outside in the far north and expect it to grow a thick coat and survive, that would be abusive

You have a 2nd choice, treat and see what the mite drop is on the sticky board, if you have a huge mite drop you know they won't make it with out treatment, re queen them in the spring. if you don't have a huge mite drop you know your on the right tract.


----------



## Bee14me

Well said msl. Though to what benefit are you providing by allowing genetics to continue that require treatment, except for the immediate benefits that the beekeeper receives of not loosing the hive. If your going to play in the far north don't bring a chihuahua, bring a husky. Same applies here. Start your hives with stock from a breeder that has the genetics in play to prevent the need for excessive or repetitive intervention. If that hive that requires constant attention swarms to become feral, how long will it last? That's all I was getting at. Just my two cents. You make good points msl I am not arguing with you, just adding to the conversation.


----------



## grantsbees

Update: The untreated colony (started from package bees) is currently in cluster mode for the winter. A good volleyball size. I have no doubt that the mites had some negative effect on them, but they made it to the brood break of late fall. I have not "yet" seen any signs of PMS or DWV. As long as they have enough to eat to get them to spring, they SHOULD be ok.

That being said, my knowledgeable inspector says that most TF hives that he has seen fail in the second year. I have no reason to doubt him. I know there are tricks to keeping mite levels down such as allowing swarming. I have also heard that the Warre nadiring method every year keeps mite levels from getting out of control as well. I mean, who knows for sure but the concept is that you are annually removing old comb and letting the bees draw new comb and that somehow affects the mites' life cycles.

But hey, I'm a newbee and still learning. From now on, though, I will only get stock from treatment free, locally overwintered supplies. I've considered getting Russians.


----------



## msl

Bee14me said:


> to what benefit are you providing by allowing genetics to continue that require treatment, except for the immediate benefits that the beekeeper receives of not loosing the hive.


When you have one or 2 hives what is the benefit to letting them die? It’s not like letting them die is going to provide a service to bee genetics, you not providing any sort of drone saturation compared to all the other hives in your area that are likely being treated. 



Bee14me said:


> If your going to play in the far north don't bring a chihuahua, bring a husky. Same applies here. Start your hives with stock from a breeder that has the genetics in play to prevent the need for excessive or repetitive intervention


Spot on! 
But the point is “most” hive or 2 backyard beeks who go TF have a Chihuahua, aka mass produced generic package bees. 



grantsbees said:


> From now on, though, I will only get stock from treatment free, locally overwintered supplies.


bingo! All I was suggesting was that spending $7 now to OAD the hive and getting a TF queen in the spring will be much cheaper than a new package of bees in the spring. 

My ferals went about 2 years, my packages didn’t make a year

I think the long and short of it, (and this is comeing from some one who total drank a lot of the TF/natural cell/top bar/warre/ferrel stock/only the strong shale live koolade) is if your hive needs treatment, it needs treatment, its not TF stock, treat it. If you don’t like treatments, requeen it with known TF stock. But letting it die makes no sense from an animal husbandry or financial standpoint. It’s just too cheap and easy not to at least OAD treatment. Now this is from a 1 or 2 hive perspective a big outfit working a TF breeding program is different, they can lose a bunch of hives, split/graft and bounce back, the small back yard beek cant


----------



## grantsbees

msl said:


> I think the long and short of it is If your hive needs treatment, it needs treatment, treat it.


I somewhat disagree with this as a rule. To paraphrase Michael Bush from an email to me: Do not assume that the bees (packaged or otherwise) will be overhwelmed by mites.

This will be my last package of bees. I've learned a lesson there. That being said, I don't see a reason not to give this colony (and their queen) a fighting chance. Maybe I'm too attached to this queen who produced a massive and productive colony this past season. :shhhh:


----------



## msl

The 2 not exclusive of each other
I am saying if it needs treatment, it needs treatment, so treat it. MB is saying don't automatically assume it needs treatment.


----------



## grantsbees

msl said:


> The 2 not exclusive of each other
> I am saying if it needs treatment, it needs treatment, so treat it. MB is saying don't automatically assume it needs treatment.


I should clarify. He said that in response to my identifying a high mite drop in September.


----------



## Bee14me

"When you have one or 2 hives what is the benefit to letting them die? It’s not like letting them die is going to provide a service to bee genetics, you not providing any sort of drone saturation compared to all the other hives in your area that are likely being treated."

You are right for the short gain. We, as a bee keeping community, should all strive to keep only genetics that benefit the species not the immediate short lived colony that requires assistance to survive. Again my two cents as a novice beek whose probably read to much, and experienced too little


----------



## msl

agreed, but its hard to do if your bees are dead
The point was there is no harm to the species by keeping a hive alive long enuf to re-queen it, or have them try again and raize a new queen in the spring and hope for the local gene pool to improve what you have. Or to just keep treating them

Going Hard bond on a few hives of package bees doesn't help any one, what happens in your (or my) little apiary isn't going to change the world or help the bees, its the idea that it will that sucks in so many new beeks (my self among them)


----------



## gww

Grants...
I am new with my first hives and am basically doing the same. The only differrance is I have did no mite counts and am not in a warre yet. I figure ignorance is bliss (for me not you) and if I don't know the mite counts I won't worry till the hives die on me. I would not be against treatments but am lazy and figure I won't know if I don't try even if bees die. The guy I got one hive from said he doesn't treat and just has enough hives that he replaces dead outs with splits.

My only hope if my bees die is to catch more swarms cause I don't plan on buying more bees. I figure the swarms I caught this year could be from bought bees just as easily as from wild ones.

I am not against treatment but just lazy untill I know for sure I will need to treat. This is not to dissagree with those who know they have better success with treating. 

If I already knew for sure that I was going to lose all my bees each year cause I didn't treat, I would treat.

I only know one way to try and find out and it might cause the death of bees that didn't have to die. That is to just try it. The one hope is that I do know someone who says he doesn't treat and he still has bees. He is also lots smarter on bees then me and may have counter measures that he uses that I don't. I am like most new bee keepers and am from the show me state and so will wait for the bees to show me even if it hurts. (and it will hurt if they all die this winter and spring).

I admit that I know nothing and the learning is going to come in only one way, by trying and doing and as I learn adjusting. If I shot them up with mite killing juice, it would probly work but then I wouldn't know if it might of worked with out it. This is not to discount the years of experiance that others have gained but more my way of getting my own experiance.
Good luck
gww


----------



## grantsbees

msl said:


> agreed, but its hard to do if your bees are dead
> The point was there is no harm to the species by keeping a hive alive long enuf to re-queen it, or have them try again and raize a new queen in the spring and hope for the local gene pool to improve what you have. Or to just keep treating them
> 
> Going Hard bond on a few hives of package bees doesn't help any one, what happens in your (or my) little apiary isn't going to change the world or help the bees, its the idea that it will that sucks in so many new beeks (my self among them)


I don't think I am going to save the bees or change the world. But it's a fascinating hobby that I am not giving up on being TF regardless of what happens.
Not to mention I enjoy honey

I will post an update here in May and let you know where things stand. Thanks for all the great comments


----------



## Bee14me

It is indeed a great hobby/ passion. Honey bees are so fascinating in every aspect! Man do I love bees


----------



## lostboy

Hey Grant. regarding your comment about Russians, check out warm color apiaries, RHBA certified bees in Ma. I've read a couple newspaper articles this summer about beeks who have is bees and are doing great.


----------



## grantsbees

lostboy said:


> Hey Grant. regarding your comment about Russians, check out warm color apiaries, RHBA certified bees in Ma. I've read a couple newspaper articles this summer about beeks who have is bees and are doing great.


Hey Lostboy. I have already been in contact with Dan at Warm Colors. I would love to be able to get a few generations out of them. We shall see.


----------



## crazybean

If you don't want to apply oxalic acid, why don't you try otger acids, like lemmonade or lactic acid? 

Surely lemmonade won't do any damage , after all, it is quite common to drink herbal tea with honey and lemmon.

And lactic acid is present in jogurth, etc.


----------



## lostboy

Hey Grant, went to Dan's house before xmas, nice guy, we spent about a hour yaking about bees. I ended up buying some honey, candles and bees, yup bees. I'm gonna get a pkg of Russians, plus a certified pure nuc. I also signed up for his bee classes, the more we know the better and he seems like a guy I would like to learn from. Wrapped both my Warre's with tar paper and wrapped my lang with styrene foam board, hoping to help with the wind and cold, put some insulation in the top bar also. The lang is the only one with bees actively flying when it gets warm, my warre's seemed to decline rapidly when it got real cold, below zero already around here. The lang is a treatment free, overwintered nuc I picked up in July and top bar is from a swarm I caught in a tree from one of my warre's , neither of these built up much, probably the drought hurt them with reduced forage. Dan said this was the first time in over a decade he wasn't able to take excess honey in Sept. because of the drought conditions. Hopefully some of mine make the winter. Talk later.


----------



## grantsbees

Hey lostboy,

I just sent out my order form to Dan for 2 nucs. My last colony didn't make it. Most likely due to mites and then freezing with a small population. Plenty of honey though! Here in Dudley the drought wasn't as severe as other parts of the state.


----------



## Bee14me

I remember reading a really interesting article about wrapping Warre hives in tar paper. Conclusion being not to wrap. From this guys research he found that it was only a marginal difference in temp but made a surprising difference in the ability of the hive to properly manage hive humidity. Hay bales placed at the north side of the box, if I remember correctly, was the best over wintering strategy. Wish I knew where I read the article. Just thought I would share, thought it was interesting. I have also read recently of someone actually placing thermostatically controlled heaters in each of his hives............ opcorn:


----------



## lostboy

That's too bad about your bees, like I said, the lang has bees coming and going when it gets warm, cleansing flights based on the drops all over my truck. I will maybe see a couple hanging around the warre but not many. I would think the quilt would deal with the evaporation of moisture, controlling the humidity, I actually made a quilt box for my lang and a vented roof, saw on another site a bunch of lang owners have done it also. One woman believed doing that was the main reason she went through last winter without any losses, but what do I know. So Grant, during my conversation with Dan I got the idea he didn't care much for the warre hive, he thought it was a difficult hive for inspections and general bee management, and after this first year I think he's right. That's why I have different hives, going in the lang and top bar was way easier, not giving up on the warre, but not adding on to them. I'll be putting the bees I get this spring into lang hives, I'm already getting stuff together to build some. I don't work from Dec. thru Mar. , going back to work the middle to end of April so I have lots of time to play around with stuff. Looking forward to spring and another go at this bee business.


----------



## grantsbees

I don't think your decline in bee activity has to do with it being a Warre. That's likely coincidence. Did you start it from a package?
Anyway I am invested in Warres right now so I'm sticking with them. I plan on doing splits if next year goes well.

I also have a converter so I can put nuc frames in the top and let the bees work down to the bars.

Fyi Ken Warchol tells me the top bar hives don't do well in cold climates like New England.


----------



## msl

grantsbees said:


> Fyi Ken Warchol tells me the top bar hives don't do well in cold climates like New England.


Yet some how Sam Comfort ran them by the 100s in upstate NY and was able to over winter 5 bar Nucs


----------



## Stephenpbird

Bee14me said:


> I remember reading a really interesting article about wrapping Warre hives in tar paper. Conclusion being not to wrap. From this guys research he found that it was only a marginal difference in temp but made a surprising difference in the ability of the hive to properly manage hive humidity.


Roger Delon ran 600 Warre/Delon hives in the alpine region of France for many, many years. He was a commercial beek that practiced transhumance. He wrapped his hives with great success. Humidity was controlled by using a different design for the floor. 

I first tried Warres floor and it was a nightmare, for me the floor was always wet, not damp but soaking wet. Even though the floor slopped to the front it made no difference. Delons floor is open the entire width of the hive which provides enough ventilation to keep them dry. I stopped wrapping hives when I found out it made very little difference in my area. A different floor is a must in my location, one that provides enough ventilation to keep things dry. As for a heater, well sounds good but... totally unnecessary. There are many threads here explaining why.


----------



## grantsbees

msl said:


> Yet some how Sam Comfort ran them by the 100s in upstate NY and was able to over winter 5 bar Nucs


Sam comfort runs all types of hives and never says one is better than the other.


----------



## ruthiesbees

Grantsbees, I don't know if anyone ever answered your original question regarding powder sugar treatments for mites. Aside from what Randy at scientificbeekeeping says about it, I am using it in my topbar hives, with much success. I am a chemical treatment free beekeeper, but I do practice "manipulations" of the colony that would make me not fall under a strict "treatment free" heading as listed in the Beesource forum or the Facebook group.

All mine are topbar hives with screened bottoms that have a solid IPM board underneath. The first year, I used oil on the bottom board to look for mites. Didn't like the hydrocarbon smell coming from my wonderful beehive so after a bit of research from the gardening realm (I have a horticulture degree), I started using diatomaceous earth on the bottom boards (which are bee tight so the bees can't roll around in it). Has been very interesting to see what ends up in the dust: adult small hive beetles, wax moths, larvae of both as well as any mites that are groomed off the bees. The dust needs to be nice and fluffy to have an affect on the critters that drop through. I live in the very humid south, so that means changing it almost weekly during the active bee season.

Aside from running the DE on the solid bottom boards as long as the summer heat will allow (they typically come out late July), I am doing a monthly powder sugar shake of each comb in each colony. This is not just the lite dusting between frames that I see mentioned in the Lang hive articles. Each topbar comb is brought out of the hive with one wooden end resting on the top of the other bars. The comb is tipped back at an angle and both sides dusted with my one handed Oxo sifter that has plain store bought Domino powered sugar in it. It is important not to put the dust down in the cells with the larvae as it gums up the works. But with the bar basically upside down and tipped at an angle, the cells are tipped the other way to this method works well. If I spot the queen on a side of comb, I make sure I am very careful with dusting on that side because the dust can make the bees loses their footing and I don't want her to end up falling off the comb. By the time I am done, I have thousands of little ghost bees buzzing in the hive cleaning each other off. After an hour, everyone is clean and I change out the DE on the bottom so the sugar does not bring ants.

I also employ a brood break in each hive right around the summer solstice in June. Since I make overwintering nucs, I pull the original queen to nuc and let the big hive re-queen. While they are in the broodless period, I do the sugar shakes once a week to really knock down the mite population going into fall. Sometimes the original queen gets returned to the big hive, and sometimes she doesn't. (Depends if she is my "breeder queen" for that particular queen line)

I will also pull drone comb at key times during the season if I see a heavy mite load in a hive. I don't do it often, as I am queen rearing all season long, so I don't like to pick on the drones, but you will see some colonies need a little more help than others in regards to mite control. I've bought ankle biter queens, sam comfort queens, TF queens, and bred my own from a local beekeeper. None of the queen lines are able to control the mites completely without additional manipulations, which I don't mind doing in order to be chemical treatment free.

As to the heaters, I will use the ones from warmbees.com for the fall-made overwintering nucs that are very tiny with lite stores. They do not have the "bee mass" to keep the cluster adequately warm even for our mild winters. But having these overwintered nucs gives me mated queens very early in the spring to use for splits.

There are a couple of topbar hive beekeepers up in New England that are overwintering their bees, but I don't know of any Warre beekeepers.


----------



## msl

grantsbees said:


> Sam comfort runs all types of hives and never says one is better than the other.


No one said better, the point is, he grew his company ruining KTBH by the 100s as a commercial beek in New England. This is counter to your bee inspectors claim that the hives won't do well.


----------



## grantsbees

msl said:


> No one said better, the point is, he grew his company ruining KTBH by the 100s as a commercial beek in New England. This is counter to your bee inspectors claim that the hives won't do well.


He didn't say they won't do well. He did say that they do not keep heat in as well as vertical hives. Heat doesn't move left and right as well as it rises.


----------



## grantsbees

msl said:


> No one said better


I was just driving home the point to lostboy who noticed fewer bees in his Warre than his Lang. It's not likely the type of hive that caused those symptoms,


----------



## lostboy

I agree, the decline is not because it's a warre, just the health of those bees and environmental factors. I built my two warre's and top bar myself with plans from other sources and am into them for about $70, pretty cheap way to give other hive designs a look at. My bees were package bees I got from the president of the Hampden county beekeepers ass. the lang came as a nuc from a guy in Wilbraham. This past Aug. Eversource had a company spray a herbicide on the power line right of way that boarders my property. I met with the foreman and walked the right of way with him while he explained the process, telling me the bees would be ok, said his Dad was also a beek and understood my concerns. I'm sure that spraying had a effect on my hives, can't see how it wouldn't, but there was no way I could stop it, just hope for the best.


----------



## grantsbees

The fact that you have a local nuc colony vs a southern package colony is a significant one. Southern bred commercial bees have a lot going against them when the northeast winters hit.


----------



## lostboy

So being in the low 50's here yesterday the bees were out flying around crapping all over our cars. There were no bees out of the warre's or top bar so I cracked them open for a look, sadly both were dead, and almost no honey in either of the hives which is surprising, the two warre's had two top boxes on each that weighed about 35lbs in early Sept. The lang from a local nuc although only in one 8frame deep was bustling with bees, no more southern packages for me, not saying that's the only reason that the others didn't make it but I'm sure the 6 below zero temps on Monday has a harsher effect on them compared to this over wintered treatment free nuc I have. The top bar was a swarm that was hived in July and with the extreme drought they never built up enough stores, and with me working dark to dark all fall maybe the warre's were robbed out and I didn't notice, I don't know. I do know that during a early Oct inspection I was surprised at how few bees were in the warre's.


----------



## grantsbees

Welcome to the club, lostboy. I'm done with packages also. I'm surprised you didn't end up with any honey. My single Warre dead-out left me with over a gallon and a half of honey (once I crushed and strained it). I'm not sure how many pounds that is.

Glad to hear your TF lang is doing well though. Where did you get those bees?

I'm looking forward to my Russian nucs this coming season. If you want to stick with the Warre, you can make a lang nuc to Warre box. That's my plan.


----------



## lostboy

Regarding the honey, I'm surprised too, when I did the oa treatment ending in early Sept I had lifted the two top boxes off the warre's and put cardboard under them to shield them from the vapor just in case I was able to take some honey, so I know they were full of honey, that's why I'm wondering if they were robbed out in late fall. I only looked in the upper box on each one and there was some honey but not much, maybe more in the lower two boxes, but they felt light. Although Dan said the Russian bees are by no means a cure all I'm looking forward to another shot at this also. I also signed up for his classes which I'm sure will benefit me, plus might give me a little more access to him for help. I've talked to about four different beeks in my travels this year who've gotten bees from him and all seemed to be doing good, one from Maine. I'm also sure judging from our conversations the skill and experience of the keepers had a lot to do with their success. I got the nuc from a guy in Wilbraham Ma. he's been keeping bees since childhood in Poland, treatment free because he's cheap. He pulls every ounce of honey every year and feeds only sugar all winter, says a pound of sugar is cheaper than a pound of honey, I don't agree with that but he had fourteen hives that were all expanding. Seeing Dans nuc is in a lang I built a bunch of lang 8 frame medium boxes for his bees, I also built quilt boxes and warre style tops for them and will manage them like a warre, foundationless. I built a couple boats and paddleboards, one boat a 16ft mahogany runabout that looks like a chriscraft so bee hives are easy, and I don't work all winter so it gives me something to do


----------



## grantsbees

lostboy said:


> Regarding the honey, I'm surprised too, when I did the oa treatment ending in early Sept I had lifted the two top boxes off the warre's and put cardboard under them to shield them from the vapor just in case I was able to take some honey, so I know they were full of honey, that's why I'm wondering if they were robbed out in late fall.


Sounds like your stronger hive had a good opportunity to rob honey from your weak one.



lostboy said:


> Although Dan said the Russian bees are by no means a cure all


And apparently the OA treatment isn't either. From what I've read/heard Russians seem to have a good track record. Just give them adequate space for swarm control and requeen regularly to keep the genetics in tact.


----------

