# Where did 90% of my bees go?



## Oldtimer

For the swarm to only fill one warre box in all that time is a good indication this hive has been struggling from the git go. They should have done more than that.

Finding one bee with 10 mites on it really only happens when a hive has been overwhelmed by mites. It is not a sacrificial bee that left with the only 10 mites in the hive.

What to do now? It's just a case of accepting your loss, and readying the hive to start again next season. Could also pay to inspect some brood comb to ensure there is no AFB. AFB is a rare disease but does exist, all deadouts should be checked for it to ensure it is not passed on.


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## ruthiesbees

If they didn't leave behind swarm cells to continue on the hive, it's not a swarm that left. Sounds to me like they absconded due to bad hive conditions. If the mite load was high enough (and possibly other issues with pests) they might have decided to leave and the few forages you saw coming back with pollen didn't get the message or were early risers and had gone out foraging when the others left. If you don't see open/capped brood in the hive, it might have been a queenless hive as well that just gave up and joined forces with another hive.

You will want to plan what you can do with the comb now so that the wax moths and robber bees don't mess up these valuable resources. You should be able to get more bees in the spring time and will be able to install them in the same hive, and they will have a jump start with all the comb and stores. (you should take a bar of honey for yourself, if you weren't feeding syrup)


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## kinggroucho

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your input. There are definitely no swarm cells so looks like they've absconded. Should I just leave the hive alone and let it die over winter? Or be more proactive somehow? There are probably still 1000-2000 bees in there so it doesn't feel dead, just sparse. You guys are saying it's as good as dead?
j.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Is there any brood? Without brood of the right age they cannot make a queen and it is probably way to late to get her bred anyhow. No queen = no hive. The best you can do is find a hive to combine them with--friend, club member, etc--but the reality is this one sounds gone to me. I am sorry for your loss.

JMO

Rusty


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## Westhill

I am really sorry that happened to you. I'm a newb so I can't advise on what to do next, but one thing I learned this summer is that sometimes you can't see any mites in your hive, even when there are a bazillion of them in there. They are in the sealed brood, under the caps, where you can't see them. I had never seen a mite on my bees--I take close up photos when I inspect, and blow them up and study them later--never saw a mite. Not one. I have a bottom board that slides out to check for mites--no mites fell on it all season. But a couple of weeks ago, I treated my bees with MAQS anyway and the number of mites that fell out was unbelievable. More kept falling as the capped brood hatched out. Like other people said, even if you take a loss on the hive for this season, your drawn comb is gold, and it will help you get a jump start next year. Good luck and I hope your next season is better.


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## Oldtimer

kinggroucho said:


> You guys are saying it's as good as dead?


Yes.

The leftovers from a hive that absconded due to mites at this time of year will not make it. Not without major assistance anyway. But I can't see that happening, nor is the cost / risk / reward values of assisting what you have worth it.


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## thehackleguy

Do you have a plan do deal with mites for your next batch of bees? If you can somehow freeze the entire box to kill any eggs/larva then put it on a flat board and one on top so mice and bugs can't move in.


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## kinggroucho

I don't have a plan right now. I don't have a freezer that could accommodate the hive (though I may get one), so I'm basically just waiting for winter to kill everything. Is there a better way to handle that? I'm just keeping an eye on it in the meantime, making sure nothing has obviously infiltrated the hive.

What also seems odd right now is that every day, there are a few larva on the floor of the screen that I guess were ripped out of their brood chamber. They appear intact, so it doesn't look like anything is feeding on them? Any idea what's going on there?

j.


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## davpress

kinggroucho said:


> I don't have a plan right now. I don't have a freezer that could accommodate the hive (though I may get one), so I'm basically just waiting for winter to kill everything. Is there a better way to handle that? I'm just keeping an eye on it in the meantime, making sure nothing has obviously infiltrated the hive.
> 
> What also seems odd right now is that every day, there are a few larva on the floor of the screen that I guess were ripped out of their brood chamber. They appear intact, so it doesn't look like anything is feeding on them? Any idea what's going on there?
> 
> j.


my experience with hives without a very strong population, soon succumbs to wax moths, and hive beetles.
David


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## JRG13

Did you recently have the first cold day or days for winter? Sounds like classic mite collapse.


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## kinggroucho

JRG13 said:


> Did you recently have the first cold day or days for winter? Sounds like classic mite collapse.


no, not really. it's cooled off a lot but the lowest it gets is 60 at night. i'm in zone 5. it's gotta be mite collapse though. 

i'll have to read up on how not to have this happen again next time. i was hoping with a warre hive i could just leave them be and everything will be cool.

j.


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## kinggroucho

Additionally since the bees absconded I regularly see 3-5 bees kind of crawling around the yard, usually in circles, trying to fly but with no luck. I haven't seen a single mite on any of these, but it sounds like that's what happens when the mites win.
j.


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## Oldtimer

If larvae are being thrown out, it means the bees must at least have the strength to do that, and attempt some kind of clean up. Maybe they are not quite as bad as I thought reading your first post. 

Are you able to open the hive and take a few pics including a good definition one of the brood and if there are any eggs? Let's see if there is something we can do for the hive.


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## kinggroucho

That's a photo of the bottom box from the other day. Note that the loose comb is from me - I had to rip part of it off to access part of the hive. But you can see a bunch of larva just sitting on the screen. What are they doing there? Sometimes the bees try to drag them back up into the hive, other times they seem to feed on it. I couldn't see any mites on the larva.

I didn't take any photos yesterday but I did open up the hive proper to inspect brood. There wasn't much - probably only a couple hundred and pretty scattered. Some brood was capped and others were exposed, so I could see white larvae just sitting in there. Is that normal? A few of the capped brood cells had small holes in them so I stuck a match in some of the capped ones and they had no evidence of AFB. 

I saw only one bee with a mite on it. I saw no evidence of wax moths or hive beetles. The hive seemed fine, just lacking in numbers.

I did not see a queen, and there are no queen cells. But they are still bringing in pollen, and they don't really seem to be acting out of the ordinary. Like, they seem busy, and they are still making nectar.

Thanks for helping me get to the bottom of this... I don't have the heart to kill the hive. I've half-heartedly set out to do so twice so far, and decided not to. Maybe there's still a chance? I know it's slim, I'm just hopeful.

j.


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## Oldtimer

Is there honey in the hive and is there eggs?

A picture of a brood comb would be a big help, kind of flying blind here.


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## kinggroucho

Yes there is lots of honey - both combs on the ends are almost full, and the tops of all other combs have honey. 

The eggs are the exposed larvae right?

I'll try to get in there again today and snap a few photos.

j.


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## Oldtimer

Yes the eggs are among unsealed larvae. A photo good enough to show the eggs plus some capped brood will be a big help making a diagnosis. May have to be done by others though in a few hours I'm away from the computer for a couple days.


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## kinggroucho

Well of course now that I say something - I don't see many uncapped larva. Only a few today, but yesterday there were probably 100.

Here are photos of 3 sets of comb:

End:


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## kinggroucho

Middle 1:















Middle 2:















Sorry they're not better quality.

Hope this sheds some light on what's happening!

j.


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## Arnie

kinggroucho said:


> i was hoping with a warre hive i could just leave them be and everything will be cool.
> 
> j.



Hi, I just saw this thread. I'm a little north of you.
It has been my experience the last 6 years that you cannot 'leave them be' and all will be well. Not around here. You can have a wonderful booming hive one week and nothing the next.
It was a bitter lesson I learned when I got back into beekeeping. 

You will definitely need to figure out a way to deal with the mites and keep an eye on the brood health. Now I am using OAV for the mites.

Sorry to hear about your hive.


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## kinggroucho

I wanted to complete the thread here with an update on the hive. I was out of town for work for a week, and when I came back, the hive had been totally robbed. I had a feeling that would happen.

So the hive is completely dead or absconded, but look what I just found laying amongst the dead yellowjackets and bees on the screened bottom board:








I have no idea if this is the original queen or not, as the original was not marked. It blows my mind that there was a queen in there, so if any of you are able to put together the pieces of the puzzle I've laid out in this thread, please tell me what you think happened here because I'm totally confused. 

Thank you to all who tried to assist me and my hive. I do intend to get more bees in the Spring, but how frustrating this initial year has been.

j.


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## beemandan

kinggroucho said:


> it's gotta be mite collapse though.
> 
> I was hoping with a warre hive i could just leave them be and everything will be cool.


Sadly, you're neither the first nor the last to get drawn into this. Don't be too hard on yourself. Move forward with knowledge and a plan.
Good luck.


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