# Squashed my Queen :(



## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I do not have spacers...just the bars.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

catjono, I doubt that you have a laying drone (drones are the male bees).  I'm not making fun of you because I could've made the same mistake 6 months ago. Hang in there and keep learning. I don't have any TB hives, but I know there is a bit of difference in how you handle the frames. Care must always be taken when inspecting hives of any kind. Learn from your mistakes and keep moving forward.

How long has your queen been dead? If just recently killed, I think you should go ahead and re-queen if you have one available.....a mated queen would be better yet. Good luck with your bees.


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## KILLERBEE (Apr 23, 2014)

My bars are touching each other due to their dimensions. If you add spacers the bees will likely give you a cross combed mess. Just be gentle and when you replace the bars touch the bottom corner of the bar in your hand to the top corner of the adjacent bar and gently lower it into place giving the bees time to move.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

catjono said:


> "... but the bars fit very closely together, that is, there are no spacers between bars. Unfortunately, I have crushed my queen between the combs and I now have a laying drone. A friend has a queen so I can try and re queen even though it's a bit late in the season.


The bars in a TBH are supposed to, and indeed *must* fit together with no spaces or gaps - otherwise, the bees will just try to seal the gaps with propolis. You should only use "spacers" between the bars that the bees are using for honey storage - they want that extra 1/4 inch for those combs - that should be at the opposite end of the brood nest. 

You should try watching some videos of TBH inspections - there are plenty on YouTube.

The smoke won't get them to go back down once they've poked their heads up. You could try spraying them (not soaking) with some sugar water, but that will only buy you a few seconds and up pop their heads again. I have good luck with resting the end of the bar farthest away from me on the hive edge, tight against the adjacent bar, and then _slowly_ lower it into the empty space. It's still a problem if a bee is halfway above the bar and halfway below and trying to exit from the space. I just wait for that bee to either come up or go back down, and then l lower the bar a little more. 

Just curious how you know that you squashed the queen? At any rate, you need a queen so best to get one. If you really have a laying worker, you need to read up on how to do that - it's not usually as simple as putting in a new queen.


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## fruitveggirl (Mar 8, 2013)

Yes, TBH bars are supposed to touch because they form the roof of the hive (though that still needs to be covered with something else.)

When I lower my bars, I make sure that one end of the bar is touching the one next to it. Then I gently lower the bar down a bit at a time. I don't even really need to use smoke -- Just give the bees time to move. However, a lot of people find the method shown in this video helpful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVhgzzsnH8M

If you are replacing a laying worker, you can't just add the new queen because she will most likely be killed. You need to shake all the bees out far away from the hive. The idea is that the laying worker will be too heavy to fly back to the hive. I would also keep your new queen caged in the hive for a few days as well until the bees accept her.


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## catjono (Aug 7, 2014)

Thank you all for the advice. I meant a laying worker, not drone :doh: I've shaken all the bees out of the hive, put the mated queen in a cage in the hive to introduce her, and I am going to feed them as they have been eating their honey stores and have very little left. I am hoping the weather stays fine a bit longer so the hive has a chance to grow and recover before winter.


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## mhorowit (Sep 25, 2011)

fruitveggirl said:


> Yes, TBH bars are supposed to touch because they form the roof of the hive (though that still needs to be covered with something else.)
> 
> When I lower my bars, I make sure that one end of the bar is touching the one next to it. Then I gently lower the bar down a bit at a time. I don't even really need to use smoke -- Just give the bees time to move. However, a lot of people find the method shown in this video helpful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVhgzzsnH8M


I use the same concept, different tool. I use a "bee-down bar" which is an 1/8" thick x 3/4" wide x 20" or more piece of aluminum stock. place the bee-down bar next to a bar and push the next bar in place. next, remove the bar and push the bars together. - Mike
\


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Marysia2 said:


> The bars in a TBH are supposed to, and indeed *must* fit together with no spaces or gaps - otherwise, the bees will just try to seal the gaps with propolis. You should only use "spacers" between the bars that the bees are using for honey storage - they want that extra 1/4 inch for those combs - that should be at the opposite end of the brood nest.
> 
> You should try watching some videos of TBH inspections - there are plenty on YouTube.
> 
> ...


I'd like to suggest that spraying bees with sugar water isn't going to get them out of the way very well. They'll actually be more attracted to it and less likely to respond to smoking them down into the hive. A puff of smoke usually gets them moving right along.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

In my admittedly limited experience, you can actually feel it if a bee is in the way. If you move slowly, you can feel the resistance of a bee body (or many bee bodies) between the bars and/or combs, and if you just jiggle lightly, the bee will move and you'll find the bar almost "snaps" back into place. It's a really subtle thing though! And if the timing is against you, you can still squish a bee.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> I'd like to suggest that spraying bees with sugar water isn't going to get them out of the way very well. They'll actually be more attracted to it and less likely to respond to smoking them down into the hive. A puff of smoke usually gets them moving right along.


Pretty much no matter what suggestion is given, someone else will come along and say, "No, that won't work, do this instead." It seems to be the nature of beekeeping. I have one hive that I could smoke enough to cure a Virginia ham - they just put on tiny little goggles and smoke masks and laugh hysterically as they dive bomb me relentlessly through the smoke clouds. The idea with spraying with sugar water is that they will become preoccupied with licking it off, at least for a moment. You can use plain water too which seems to take them by surprise (again, a fine mist or spray is enough, don't douse them). Personally I only open the TBH's in the late morning so most of the foragers are out and about - this has made a huge difference in the reaction I get when I open the hive. And as others have said, you need to learn how to replace the bars by abutting one end to the next bar, and then slowly lower away letting bees move themselves. Patience is required but if you don't squish any bees the alarm pheromones don't get everyone else in an uproar.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are many manipulations you can use to get bees out of the way. A 1/8" wide strip of wood works pretty well. Depending on the density of bees, scissoring the bar in can help. Sometimes bumping them lightly will get them to move out of the way. A brush is helpful. Smoke is sometimes helpful. I think it's best to have a number of tricks in your toolbox.


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

Marysia2 said:


> Pretty much no matter what suggestion is given, someone else will come along and say, "No, that won't work, do this instead." It seems to be the nature of beekeeping. I have one hive that I could smoke enough to cure a Virginia ham - they just put on tiny little goggles and smoke masks and laugh hysterically as they dive bomb me relentlessly through the smoke clouds. The idea with spraying with sugar water is that they will become preoccupied with licking it off, at least for a moment. You can use plain water too which seems to take them by surprise (again, a fine mist or spray is enough, don't douse them). .


So glad to hear someone else with this situation! I have only a single hive, so nothing to compare to except other people's experiences, but to my eyes, smoke has just not helped much. I've gone back to misting with water or sugar water, though they do seem to enjoy this...they spend a lot of time lapping up the water, and sugar-water also attracts ants.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

msscha said:


> So glad to hear someone else with this situation! I have only a single hive, so nothing to compare to except other people's experiences, but to my eyes, smoke has just not helped much. I've gone back to misting with water or sugar water, though they do seem to enjoy this...they spend a lot of time lapping up the water, and sugar-water also attracts ants.


msscha, then stick with the plain water - no need to attract ants if they are already a problem. Recently read something about putting in a hefty puff of smoke into the bee area and then _waiting_ about a minute before advancing. I tried this on the smoked ham hive and it did seem to keep them somewhat subdued - or maybe they were just feeling mellower that day. Who the heck knows with bees!? But you might as well try it: give the smoke a chance to have an effect. Good luck!


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

Marysia2 said:


> msscha, then stick with the plain water - no need to attract ants if they are already a problem. Recently read something about putting in a hefty puff of smoke into the bee area and then _waiting_ about a minute before advancing. I tried this on the smoked ham hive and it did seem to keep them somewhat subdued - or maybe they were just feeling mellower that day. Who the heck knows with bees!? But you might as well try it: give the smoke a chance to have an effect. Good luck!



I've found waiting helps a lot


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

blamb61 said:


> I've found waiting helps a lot


Oh, oh, oh...I just remembered what else I did to hold back the unruly hordes: I placed a damp pillowcase over the opening where the bars are removed. This also works well on Lang hives. The hive isn't as exposed as usual and they back off from the dampness of the fabric. Don't know where I learned about that little trick and this was the first time I tried it but it really did seem to help - along with the slow smoke and a suit of bullet-proof armor.


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

I also use extra pieces of wood to cover the space where I've removed a bar. This definitely helps, but I'll give the damp cloth a try! My bees also like to propolize the heck out of the bars, regardless of how straight and pretty they are, and that make putting bars back without crushing bees a challenge, too.


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## Joe Nelson (Apr 24, 2014)

What would be the difference between using spacers and just making the frames wider. Makes me owned I your frames are too narrow? Not leaving enough space between combs.


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