# Epi Pen



## Sport (Dec 11, 2006)

I am getting bees next month, and there are no bee alergies in my family. I know that there are few people with real bee alergies, but I don't want to be caught not having prepared myself when we have guests over. Is getting an Epi pen over kill, or a good idea? Is it the kind of thing that you can get over the counter, or do I need ot get a doctor to drescribe it? What are the dangers of giving epinephrine?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Yes you need a Dr. Script and details instructions on using one. It is usually reserved for those who have severe allergic reactions.

Many (including me) keep a bottle of liquid benedryl syrup in the glove box of each bee vehicle. Cheap and good insurance. It can buy time while the ambulance arrives or someone drives you to the ER. Some keep Primatene Mist on hand as it contains epinephrine and is OTC.

Do a search on this and you'll find absolutely tons of info.


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## Sport (Dec 11, 2006)

*Thanks*

Thanks. I figured that it was overkill, but having an OTC remedy is great. We already have benedryl. I'll get some primatene


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## RAlex (Aug 18, 2001)

My Granddaughter has a nut allergy so when she gets new epi pens my daughter saves a couple for me to have on hand in my truck. They are okay as long as they clear. Thankfully I have never had to use any of them ....Rick


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

What Bruce said. I have an epi-pen just in case. They're not cheap, I think mine cost $20... a small price to pay really if it actually saves someone's life.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Wow, I was just talking about epi pens at work today. I had never heard of them until my friend recommended this morning that I should get a few. 

But she was under the assumption that the more you got stung, the higher the probability that you would have an allergic reaction. I told her I thought it was the other way around.

As for having them around for visitors and outsiders, I think the personal liability of using prescription meds for someone else is a liability I don't want to assume. 

Personally I like Sundance's idea about having liquid benedryl in the glove compartment of my bee vehicles. Thanks for the suggestion. I would use it for my children first and foremost, should they have a problem.


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## Fernhill (Dec 30, 2004)

I think it's a good idea to have an Epi-pen on hand. You need to make very sure that it's needed before you administer it however. I think it's far more common that you'd need something like Benadryl than an injection. Difficulty breathing, profuse sweating, disorientation, hives are all indicative of a systemic reaction. A severe local reaction like itching or swelling is normal. Especially for those not used to being stung.

I did an extraction from an old building a couple of years ago and received more than 100 stings. By the end I wasn't even bothering swatting at the bees as it had just become a nuisance. I ended up feeling VERY sick and had to spend the rest of the day in bed. I took Benadryl which knocked me out. I had an Epi-pen there though.

Mike


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## Focus on Bees (Mar 6, 2006)

I agree with the benedryl. I have epi pens too. I talked to an allergenist about them and he said that its good to have on hand. I use the benedryl. Luckily I haven't gotten stung bad enough to use it. the epi pens aren't that dangerous to use like I had thought before.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I don't think having a epi-pen would be called overkill. Afterall, we do keep bees. 

One can develop a severe reaction at anytime. There are many instances of beekeepers having bees many years with getting thousands of stings. Then one day they end up in the hospital.

Not sure what would be more ironic...having a pen and never needing it...or not having one and needing one. I guess somewhere someone will say about some old beekeeper who keeled over one day.."You would of thought with all those bees, he would of kept an epi-pen around!"

I keep one at the house. I wanted to keep one in the truck, but they are temperature sensitive and can not be stored in high temp areas such as the glove compartment in the summer.

I like the idea of having one, as opposed to the thought of not having one.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Bjorn, thanks for adding your post. I think I will ask my Doctor what he thinks, next time I am in the office. If he recommends it, I will let you know...


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Jeff,

I keep one on hand. I just went to my local doctor and explained that I am a beekeeper and would like to have an epi-pen on hand in case someone in my family or a visitor had an allergic reaction. She wrote the prescrip and it cost me $15.

Its not overkill. I think its highly unlikely you would ever actually need it ... but I would rather have it and not need it than the alternative as mentioned above.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is getting an Epi pen over kill, or a good idea? 

It would be dangerous in this litigious society to tell anyone that anything is a bad idea if it hedges any bet.

But I'll say this. I've had bees since 1974 and I've never even seen one.


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

If you are concerned about liability, check into you good samaritan laws in your state.

>Most states have Good Samaritan laws, which generally protect individuals from liability who render emergency assistance in good faith, with no expectation of payment, and who hand the patient over to appropriate medical personnel (such as EMTs or a school nurse) as soon as possible. In addition, some states, have recently enacted Good Samaritan laws that specifically refer to epinephrine.<


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

Keep in mind that Epi-Pens are good for any life threatening allergic reaction. Aside from your family and neighbors finding out that they are allergic to bees, you never know when someone in your family might develop an severe allergy to shell fish, etc. So, over kill? I don't think so.

If you are in a situation where you do have to administer one, make sure its on the way to the ER or that EMS is on the way. The effects are often a temporary fix. Kids under 60 lbs use what is called an Epi-Pen Junior. It has Epinephrine 0.15mg. Anyone 60 lbs or over would need the regular Epi-Pen with Epinephrine 0.3mg.

When you ask your doctor for an Epi-Pen, he may not have much of an idea of how many bees are in a hive. Make sure you tell him you will be keeping bees and that there are literally thousands in each hive. You'll walk away with a prescription. 

As others have said, we keep several here at the house and carry them when going to other apiary locations. Fortunately we have never needed to use one but we'd rather have them and not need them than not have them and wish we did.

Susan


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I keep one with me when I do cut-outs mainly for observers, but IF I get the "golden sting", then I am covered.

I discussed it with my doctor whether to have them or not, his opinion was to have them on hand. I got a two pack for $125, where you get the $15 and $20 ones I'll never know, that must be for those of you who have good insurance companies. Mine have an expiration date of a little over a year if they are not overheated they may last a little longer.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Bill,

My insurance covers the epi-pen provided I have a prescription. I just have to pay the minimum co-pay.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

BB, Was that including a "paid" doctors visit, etc?

I just asked a friend (doctor) to write a prescription and went to the pharmacy. I think it was around 30 dollars for the pen.

I would think any family doctor you know from being a patient, would call in a prescription.


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## Ruben (Feb 11, 2006)

I got them my first year and it was because I was not sure about allergies and have two young kids and I am a long ways from medical help. The doctor prescibed me two (they came in a pack of two) and I got the my kids doctor to prescibe them the EpiPen Jr. We have all been stung since and I have no plans to get them in the future. Benadryl is what I keep on hand.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>BB, Was that including a "paid" doctors visit, etc?

No that did not include the Dr. visit. I usually have a list of reasons to go to a doctor before I go. My insurance isn't much to brag about with a $7500. deductible.


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## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

There are companies who do training on epi-pen. If you have to give an injection to a "stranger" it may behoove you to have training so as to at least have the assurance of correct technique and diagnosis of symptoms of anaphylaxis. Your local Red Cross may offer the certification.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

We keep one also. Not so much for us as for employees or visitors that might have a severe reaction. 
Last summer a gal from the extracting crew had a reaction, maybe from a bee but probably from a wasp. We live only a couple miles from the clinic so I drove her there, but had the epipen along to use if she got worse. I was a little reluctant to use it but was glad to have it as a backup in a worse case scenario. Being beekeeps our doctor prescribes them if we ask.
Sheri


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

I always carry an Epi-Pen because I usually work alone, and out of sight I would rather shell out a few bucks and not need it than watch the world go dark an have my last thoughts be I wish I wasn’t so cheap. The first time I bought one I was complaining to the pharmacist about the cost and he asked how much is breathing worth to you? That said last summer our neighbor contacted me and asked very upset do you have an Epi-pen!! Her husband was having an allergy attack and she had broken the one she had. I asked if she and called 911 first after that was out of the way I ran over and let her have mine. He was in a lot of distress and the fifteen minutes it took for the paramedics might not have been soon enough. She said boy I’m glad you’re a beekeeper.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

RAlex,

I just wanted to give you a heads up on something about your daughter's epi pens. I use to a police officer in Indiana. It might be a good idea to check your states laws on you carrying your daughter's prescription. I had to arrest many people who had a prescription with them that did not belong to them, or was simply not in the prescription bottle. I once arrested a lady because she had a prescription urinary track infection pill in her pocket. I hated to arrest her, but because it was a felony, I had no choice. Our laws dictate that I had to make the arrest.

Laws like that are stupid because they can burn a person who is not otherwise abusing drugs, but they are out there. I'd call your local police dept to find out.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> RAlex,
> 
> I just wanted to give you a heads up on something about your daughter's epi pens. It might be a good idea to check your states laws on you carrying your daughter's prescription. I had to arrest many people who had a prescription with them that did not belong to them, or was simply not in the prescription bottle. I once arrested a lady because she had a prescription urinary track infection pill in her pocket. I hated to arrest her, but because it was a felony, I had no choice. Our laws dictate that I had to make the arrest.
> 
> Laws like that are stupid because they can burn a person who is not otherwise abusing drugs, but they are out there. I'd call your local police dept to find out.


Wouldn't a parent always have the right to carry the prescription of their minor child? In the case of Epi-pens, I would say it is their responsibility. 

My husband and I both carry Albuterol Inhalers. He's the one with Asthma. But I always have a back up for him. 

There's a difference between carrying a prescription that belongs to your neighbor's second cousin and carrying a prescription for your own family member. As long as it is in the original container that is properly labeled what's the problem? If its illegal for me to carry a prescription with my husband's name on it then the pharmacist should be arrested for releasing it to me.  
Susan


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Greg,

Maybe this isn't even worth mentioning, but I have seen people arrested for it.

Unfortianately, these laws put the burdon of proof on the citizen, which should be unconstitutional. I agree that these laws are unreasonable. I'm not chastising anyone, or threating to arrest anyone. I'm not even an officer anymore, so I can't arrest anyone. Just a heads up, if I were caught with my wife's perscription medication in my vehicle, or otherwise in my possession in the state of Indiana, I would be arrested and charged with possession of a controlled substance, even if it was just anti-biotics, and even if it was in the bottle. The key here is that the medication is either not in the bottle, or is not my prescription. The exception to this rule is if I was comming from the pharmacy, with the medication in the bag and a receipt. If Epi pens are prescription medications, then it is a controlled substance, and the same rules apply. Check your state laws before you carry someone else's Epi. I have seen many people in this state charged with a felony, even though they meant no harm, and did not intend to commit a crime. Most state have similar possession laws.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

#1..Liability..An epi is designed to be administered to one's self. If at all possible, let the person inject it themselves. If they are unconscious, or near enough to not be able to, I won't worry about liability.

#2..I have carried epi's for many years and the only time I have needed one was for an allergy not associated with a bee sting. My wife woke up one morning with anaphalactic symptoms. I called 911, but she progressed faster then the paramedics did. She had to use the epi before they could get here.

As stated above, there are all kinds of allergies. I think all rural families, beeks or not, should get training on the use of an epi and keep one on hand at all times.


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## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

I have an epi-pen. I called my doctor and told him that we had a new colony of bees and that we wanted to have one around just in case. I have tenants one of which is severly allergic to bees, so it's there if they need it. Unfortunately I don't have health insurance, and when I went to pick it up, shelled out $139.00! Ouch! I'll not be doing that again! but I like the other suggestions about benedryl and other otc stuff.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

The Epi-Pen is only for sever allergic reaction, which I have never had, anymore I don’t react at all. For the itching and swelling benedryl helps. 
Hummingberd: if you should decided to buy an Epi-Pen in the future ask the pharmacist for one that is going to expire in about six months they are a lot cheaper and will get you threw the beekeeping season. The I did this last year and it cost me 40$.


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## Drifter (May 1, 2004)

I get mine thru the VA along with my pre expossure rabies vacination . There is a co pay but well worth the peace of mind .

Drifter


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> Greg,
> 
> Maybe this isn't even worth mentioning, but I have seen people arrested for it.
> 
> Unfortianately, these laws put the burdon of proof on the citizen, which should be unconstitutional. I agree that these laws are unreasonable. I'm not chastising anyone, or threating to arrest anyone. I'm not even an officer anymore, so I can't arrest anyone. Just a heads up, if I were caught with my wife's perscription medication in my vehicle, or otherwise in my possession in the state of Indiana, I would be arrested and charged with possession of a controlled substance, even if it was just anti-biotics, and even if it was in the bottle. The key here is that the medication is either not in the bottle, or is not my prescription. The exception to this rule is if I was comming from the pharmacy, with the medication in the bag and a receipt. If Epi pens are prescription medications, then it is a controlled substance, and the same rules apply. Check your state laws before you carry someone else's Epi. I have seen many people in this state charged with a felony, even though they meant no harm, and did not intend to commit a crime. Most state have similar possession laws.


IndianaHoney-
First of all this is Susan, not Greg.  Second, you did not address a parent's right and responsibility to carry the prescription for a minor child. Third, not all prescriptions are controlled substances. Only chemicals covered under the the Federal Controlled Substance Act of 1970 and the subsquent four to five amendments to that Act are controlled substances. 

Epinephrine did not make the list. Neither do any antibiotics. These are not controlled substances. They are not drugs of abuse; well, not by legal definitions. I guess one could make an argument for antibiotic overuse and the resulting antibiotic resistant bacteria being antibiotic abuse but this problem is perpetuated by legal prescription and demanding patients. 

Schools and daycares handle the medications for children on a daily basis. Surely your state doesn't presume to give them more rights than a child's own parents? And if a school can possess and administer your child's medication without having it in the bag with a receipt (and these are often controlled substances), your state doesn't allow you to do the same for your child or allow a spouse to carry an antibiotic or an emergency medication for each other? You are supposed to give the kid the bottle of pills or the epi-pen and wish them well? No, all parents have the right to possess and carry his or her child's medications no matter what the medication classification.

Susan


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Susan, daycares can handle the medications because the child is present. If my son had a ear infection and was prescribed a antibotic, and I was caught with that medication without my son present, I could be arrested. Again that is the state of Indiana. The Federal Controlled Substance act is a seperate issue from state laws, and I am strictly talking about state laws. Indiana is one of the strictest, but there are other states with similar laws. In this state, if its not OTC, its a controlled substance.

Susan, I'm not trying to be a jerk to ya, but I know what I'm talking about. Less than 2 years ago I was still enforcing these laws. If a person can not be arrested for carrying an antibiotic without the prescription bottle, or that does not belong to them, then why did I arrest a woman 3 years ago for a urinary track infection pill, which was an antibiotic? She actually had 2 charges because she had a 800mg Ibreprofran, also a controlled substance in Indiana. And I can garrantee you that I never arrested anyone without probable cause. Also controlled substance is a loose term. The charge was actually "possession of a schedule 2 drug", a class D felony.

Anyway, if you don't believe me, fine its at your own risk. I'm just saying that you should check your state laws. Most police departments would be glad to let you know if it's considered a controlled substance in your state. If it is, then just go to the doctor and get your own script.


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## RonS (Dec 28, 2004)

Susan,

Whoa, cool your jets. IndianaHoney was only giving the readers a heads-up. He specifically recommended that every reader check with his/her state law. That was very sound advice. EpiPens are prescription only. If your state forbids possession of prescription drugs issued to others, you may be toast. Yes, you can assert the defense of possession in support of a minor, but that minor had better be within your reach. Again, no need for hostility. He was just giving a good recommendation.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

>>>then why did I arrest a woman 3 years ago for a urinary track infection pill, which was an antibiotic? She actually had 2 charges because she had a 800mg Ibreprofran<<<
Good question!! 
Don't tell my local cops but I have one of those 800mg ibuprofin too, .....but wait, I'll just break it into 4 pieces!  
Seriously, not picking on you, Indiana, policy is policy, I understand. But sometimes I think the letter of the law is taken a bit far. If this sort of arrest policy is a common practice, no wonder our courts are bogged down and our prisons full. 

Back ON topic. We too get our epipen scripts from the VA, no charge. The pens themselves cost $20 each.
Sheri


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## Beekeeper Bill (Jul 22, 2005)

Most people that are alergic to beestings already carry an epi-pen, so if I bought one I would be thinking mostly of myself since I am the one working with the Bees almost daily, and overkill is better than getting killed !


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## RonS (Dec 28, 2004)

*Texas Possession Law*

Texas law provides an exemption to application of the Controlled Substance Act as follows: "an ultimate user or a person in possession of the controlled substance under a lawful order of a practitioner or in lawful possession of the controlled substance if it is listed in Schedule V." Medical providers (school nurses and doctors) and parents/guardians of minors fit the exemption.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Remind me not to go to Indiana anytime soon. 

Reminds me of a Conservation officer years ago who told me he could arrest me for shooting a six point white-tailed deer with my 22 pistol, in a shotgun only zone in NY....before daybreak.

The story goes like this....I am a trapper....someone tried to jack a deer and shot it six times with a 22 while it was running from them...it lived long enough to develop gangrene throughout it's body, mucus running from it's nose while laying over the top of one of my muskrat traps with it's butt in the river....it could hardly lift it's head. It was just before daybreak and I was startled to find this deer while I was in my canoe checking traps.

Out of compassion I shot it with my trapping 22 revolver (Smith and Wesson - MADE IN THE USA) to put it out of it's misery. I towed that dear with my canoe 100 yards across the river back to my home...pulled it up on my farm tractor/trailer, and brought it up to the road and called the DEC.

So, after telling the officer what I had done on the phone, and him telling me he could arrest me...there was a moment of silence and he said, Jeff, thanks for doing that and would you mind burying it....I agreed.

I would hope more would use common sense. I would be really torqued being ticketed for carrying an antibiotic for one of my sons...that's downright stupid in my mind.

I knew shooting that deer was illegal in NYS, but I did it anyway...sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Sheri,

I agree with you. I stated in one of my earlier posts that I think these laws are unreasonable. I arrested the lady because state law mandates that I can not use officer discression if it is a felony. I felt like a total *** when I had to charge this lady. She got two felonies for something that I should have just been able to throw in the trash can and forget. I could understand if the pills were some kind of abusable narcotic, like Oxyconten.

What you stated is one of the biggest reason's I'm not a cop anymore. It seems that we have become so legalistic that we have forgotten about protecting and serving. I don't agree with the good-ol'e-boy attitude, we do have to be proactive and get things like Meth off the streets, but it seems that we have forgotten common since in the process.


RonS,

Texas law has always been very reasonable as far as I have seen. The state government seems to be one of the only states that still has some common since. I noticed they provided an exemption for parents in Texas law. Indiana does not provide any such exemption, and is written as follows:

IC 35-48-4-7
Possession of a controlled substance; obtaining a schedule V controlled substance
35-48-4-7 Sec. 7. (a) A person who, without a valid prescription or order of a practitioner acting in the course of his professional practice, knowingly or intentionally possesses a controlled substance (pure or adulterated) classified in schedule I, II, III, or IV, except marijuana or hashish, commits possession of a controlled substance, a Class D felony. However, the offense is a Class C felony if the person in possession of the controlled substance possesses the controlled substance:
(1) on a school bus; or
(2) in, on, or within one thousand (1,000) feet of:
(A) school property;
(B) a public park;
(C) a family housing complex; or
(D) a youth program center.
(b) A person who, without a valid prescription or order of a practitioner acting in the course of his professional practice, knowingly or intentionally obtains:
(1) more than four (4) ounces of schedule V controlled substances containing codeine in any given forty-eight (48) hour period unless pursuant to a prescription;
(2) a schedule V controlled substance pursuant to written or verbal misrepresentation; or
(3) possession of a schedule V controlled substance other than by means of a prescription or by means of signing an exempt narcotic register maintained by a pharmacy licensed by the Indiana state board of pharmacy;
commits a Class D felony.


So basicly, if you are in Indiana, and you have a Epi Pen in your possession, and it is not prescribed to you. And if it is found on you or in your possession, it is likely that you will be charged with a class D felony. Better to be safe than sorry, please get your own prescription if your state has a similar law. Remember that if you have a prescription for an Epi Pen, and you are found with someone elses, you can still be charged. Your name must be on the packaging. I won't even bring someone else's medication to them because if these laws. I've just seen to many people arrested, even though they were not abusing these substances.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> Susan, daycares can handle the medications because the child is present. If my son had a ear infection and was prescribed a antibotic, and I was caught with that medication without my son present, I could be arrested. Again that is the state of Indiana. The Federal Controlled Substance act is a seperate issue from state laws, and I am strictly talking about state laws. Indiana is one of the strictest, but there are other states with similar laws. In this state, if its not OTC, its a controlled substance.
> 
> Susan, I'm not trying to be a jerk to ya, but I know what I'm talking about. Less than 2 years ago I was still enforcing these laws. If a person can not be arrested for carrying an antibiotic without the prescription bottle, or that does not belong to them, then why did I arrest a woman 3 years ago for a urinary track infection pill, which was an antibiotic? She actually had 2 charges because she had a 800mg Ibreprofran, also a controlled substance in Indiana. And I can garrantee you that I never arrested anyone without probable cause. Also controlled substance is a loose term. The charge was actually "possession of a schedule 2 drug", a class D felony.
> 
> Anyway, if you don't believe me, fine its at your own risk. I'm just saying that you should check your state laws. Most police departments would be glad to let you know if it's considered a controlled substance in your state. If it is, then just go to the doctor and get your own script.


Indiana-
I'm not trying to be a jerk either. I believe that you are actually trying to help, but what you are saying is not true. You may have arrested this woman and charged her with possession of a schedule II, but a half decent lawyer would have had that thrown out. Here are the federal standards for a Schedule II:
(2) Schedule II. -

(A) The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse.

(B) The drug or other substance has a currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States or a currently accepted medical use with severe restrictions.

(C) Abuse of the drug or other substances may lead to severe psychological or physical dependence.

I've been a nurse for 32 years and I can tell you with certainty that Ibuprofen is not a a scheduled II controlled substance in any state. It is not a drug of high potential for abuse, it does not have severe restrictions and it will not lead to severe psychological or physical dependence. If it met any of these requirements it would not be available OTC at a lower dose.

And the term controlled substance is not a loose term. It is defined by the Federal Controlled Substance Act of 1970, though chemicals have been added since then. The act specifically says that states may not change the definition of what is and is not a controlled substance but that anyone can petition to have the DEA look at a specific chemical with that in mind. This is how they decide:
(c) Factors determinative of control or removal from schedules In making any finding under subsection (a) of this section or under subsection (b) of section 812 of this title, the Attorney General shall consider the following factors with respect to each drug or other substance proposed to be controlled or removed from the schedules:

(1) Its actual or relative potential for abuse.

(2) Scientific evidence of its pharmacological effect, if known.

(3) The state of current scientific knowledge regarding the drug or other substance.

(4) Its history and current pattern of abuse.

(5) The scope, duration, and significance of abuse.

(6) What, if any, risk there is to the public health.

(7) Its psychic or physiological dependence liability.

(8) Whether the substance is an immediate precursor of a substance already controlled under this subchapter.

Here is the list of controlled substances their placement in the schedules. Look at it for yourself: http://www.dea.gov/pubs/csa/812.htm

Thanks for your concern, Indiana, but I know my legal rights in my state and what the federal law says about controlled substances. Until I retired in November of 2006, I dealt with OTCs, scripts and controlled substance schedules on a daily basis. I hope your state doesn't have any serious crimes, with the law enforcement so concerned about Ibuprofen and antibiotic carrying citizens. 

Susan


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

RonS said:


> Susan,
> 
> Whoa, cool your jets. IndianaHoney was only giving the readers a heads-up. He specifically recommended that every reader check with his/her state law. That was very sound advice. EpiPens are prescription only. If your state forbids possession of prescription drugs issued to others, you may be toast. Yes, you can assert the defense of possession in support of a minor, but that minor had better be within your reach. Again, no need for hostility. He was just giving a good recommendation.


Hi Ron,
I don't know why you accuse me of being hostile. I am just stating fact and even signed with a smiley face to signify no hard feelings. I'm starting to feel quite picked on though and for no good reason. I know what a controlled substance is (this is determined by the federal government, not individual states) and I know the laws in my state. 

And a parent's minor child does not have to be in reach when a medication is in your possession anymore than children have to be in a school's reach while they possess an entire lock box full of meds. Whether you are at home or not, you are your child's legal guardian and as such have the right to possess medication for the treatment of your child. Anything attempt to interfere with that is interfering with your parental rights and endangering your child. Many parents who have children with severe allergies or medical conditions each carry presciptions so that no matter who the child is with they always have medication on hand. No one has to worry that they will forget to exchange possession of the meds. In patient/parent teaching, this is often discussed with parents. I'm sorry if this information makes you feel I am being hostile.  
Susan


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Susan,

I did find in one of my previous post that I stated Schedule II, that should have been schedule V. Schedule II would be other drugs such as Narcs, etc. However, what I was specificly talking about was prescription drugs, weather it is schedule II or V makes no difference. And I will tell you this again, the Federal Controlled Substance act has nothing to do with state laws, they are two seperate and individual issues. The federal government does not and can not interfere in state law unless a federal court rules that the state law violates the U.S. Constitution. Take gun laws for example, the Federal anti assault weapon law of 1993 has expired. According to the Feds, I can now own a weapon with more than a 10 round mag, with a pistal grip, simiauto, flash suppressor, etc. But I still can't if I live in California, because Cali state law still bans them.

I don't think you're being a jerk, you just believe you're right. So I'll issue a challange to you. Go get a single prescription antibiotic pill, Schedule V. Not in a bottle, and prescribed to you, and one in a bottle not prescribed to you. It can be prescribed to your mother, father, husband, child, I don't care, just not prescibed to you. Then drive to Union City, Indiana. Show up in front of our police station and show the pill to an officer. If you do this, I'll bail you out It will cost me $1500 because I will be bailing you out on two felony charges of possession. If you do this and they say "so what, its not a crime", I will even pay for your trip.

Also, controlled substance is loosely used in that it is used to discribe any schedule, all the way from Meth to antibiotics. This may not be the case with Federal law, but it is with state laws.

Oh, and 800mg Ibuprofen is schedule V.

Listen, you said that you know your state laws. Great, if NC is not like Indiana, great! I was using my state as an example, and warning others to find out about their state. If your state does not make it illegal for you to carry a antibiotic or other such meds that are not prescribed to you, the great, they have some common since. My state on the other hand, has no common since, and they do make it illegal for citizens to carry prescription Ibuprofen and antibiotics that are not prescribed to them. They even go as far as to make it a crime if it is prescribed to you, and you don't have the bottle with the meds.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Susan,

I understand why you disagree with me. Your state law is:

§ 90‑93. Schedule V controlled substances.

(a) This schedule includes the controlled substances listed or to be listed by whatever official name, common or usual name, chemical name, or trade name designated. In determining that a substance comes within this schedule, the Commission shall find: a low potential for abuse relative to the substances listed in Schedule IV of this Article; currently accepted medical use in the United States; and limited physical or psychological dependence relative to the substances listed in Schedule IV of this Article. The following controlled substances are included in this schedule:

(1) Any compound, mixture or preparation containing any of the following limited quantities of narcotic drugs or salts thereof, which shall include one or more nonnarcotic active medicinal ingredients in sufficient proportion to confer upon the compound, mixture, or preparation valuable medicinal qualities other than those possessed by the narcotic alone:

a. Not more than 200 milligrams of codeine or any of its salts per 100 milliliters or per 100 grams.

b. Not more than 100 milligrams of dihydrocodeine or any of its salts per 100 milliliters or per 100 grams.

c. Not more than 100 milligrams of ethylmorphine or any of its salts per 100 milliliters or per 100 grams.

d. Not more than 2.5 milligrams of diphenoxylate and not less than 25 micrograms of atropine sulfate per dosage unit.

e. Not more than 100 milligrams of opium per 100 milliliters or per 100 grams.

f. Not more than 0.5 milligram of difenoxin and not less than 25 micrograms of atropine sulfate per dosage unit.

(2) Repealed by Session Laws 1985, c. 172, s. 9.

(3) Stimulants. – Unless specifically exempted or excluded or unless listed in another schedule, any material, compound, mixture, or preparation which contains any quantity of the following substances having a stimulant effect on the central nervous system, including its salts, isomers and salts of isomers:

a. Repealed by Session Laws 1993, c. 319, s. 7.

b. Pyrovalerone.

(b) A Schedule V substance may be sold at retail without a prescription only by a registered pharmacist and no other person, agent or employee may sell a Schedule V substance even if under the direct supervision of a pharmacist.

(c) Notwithstanding the provisions of G.S. 90‑93(b), after the pharmacist has fulfilled the responsibilities required of him in this Article, the actual cash transaction, credit transaction, or delivery of a Schedule V substance, may be completed by a nonpharmacist. A pharmacist may refuse to sell a Schedule V substance until he is satisfied that the product is being obtained for medicinal purposes only.

(d) A Schedule V substance may be sold at retail without a prescription only to a person at least 18 years of age. The pharmacist must require every retail purchaser of a Schedule V substance to furnish suitable identification, including proof of age when appropriate, in order to purchase a Schedule V substance. The name and address obtained from such identification shall be entered in the record of disposition to consumers. (1971, c. 919, s. 1; 1973, c. 476, s. 128; c. 1358, ss. 9, 15; 1977, c. 667, s. 3; 1979, c. 434, ss. 7, 8; 1981, c. 51, s. 9; 1985, c. 172, s. 9; 1989 (Reg. Sess., 1990), c. 1040, s. 3; 1993, c. 319, s. 7; 1997‑456, s. 27.)


According to this, it's not illegal to possess a Schedule V in NC, but that does not change the fact that other states do make it crime. Look at my previous post and you will see Indiana's Schedule V law, which makes it a crime. Hince my point, check your state laws first.


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

1. Keep your drugs away from me.
2. If I die due to bee stings I'll have a big ol tish eating grin on my face, cause it happened doing something I love and am passionate about.
3. I see lots of fuzzy logic here...
4. If I had an epi pen for me I'd be darned if I'm gonna inject anyone else. CALL 911 people. 
5. I'd find a cell phone more valuable. Most beeks I see are out of shape, just as likely to have a problem from all that ADRENALINE! 
6. Bees are low on the totem pole of causing problems. Have you read about this? YOU NEED TO! I recall something about greater chance of being struck by lightning.
7. I sting myself on purpose in the winter. This maintains my immunity. Kind of like an allergy shot.
8. Don't you all know not to ask a medical professional for advice so much? It's kind of like this: Hey doc, should I worry about this/take this/etc (and pay you money while I decrease your liabilty by treating my possible problem) or should I just take things as they come with common sense (and not pay you any money for my appointments to get this treatment/pill/etc...I think that you'd be better off with a doctor as a friend than as an advisor.
9. RELAX people. Do not be so worried about potential problems. Overcome your fear and live a little.
10. If you are that worried, give up the bees.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Nursebee, before we had employees we didn't make it a high priority to have one, some years we did, some years we didn't. We didn't worry much about it, either. We now choose to keep an epipen not for ourselves but for our employees and customers. 

We live in a rural area and 911 can be 20+ minutes away, so when we had an incident with an employee 2 summers ago I drove the gal to a small clinic only 5 minutes away. As it happened we caught the doctor just before he left for lunch, so he injected her with his epipen, instead of me having to use mine. I was *REALLY* glad he was there, as I did *not* want to inject her, but I would much rather inject someone than watch them die waiting for 911. This doctor said he has ~ half dozen incidents every year, there hasn't been ANY lightening strike injuries or deaths in 30 years that I have been here. 

Btw, this employee had been with us for 2 years and had been stung numerous times previously, with no severe reaction, so there was no reason for her to have her own epipen. She carries one now. 

It isn't really a case of "fear", I consider it cheap insurance. Just as we provide fire extinguishers in our work environment, even though I don't stay up nights worrying about fires, I think it would be irresponsible not to provide the additional safety of epipens for our employees and visitors, in light of the increased frequency of stings. I hope we never have to use either.
Sheri


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's sure good to know that in Indiana they keep those dangerous Ibupropen addicts locked away...


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

I know wha'cha mean MB, dangerous little buggers...


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> Susan,
> 
> 
> ...So I'll issue a challange to you. Go get a single prescription antibiotic pill, Schedule V. Not in a bottle, and prescribed to you, and one in a bottle not prescribed to you. It can be prescribed to your mother, father, husband, child, I don't care, just not prescibed to you. Then drive to Union City, Indiana. Show up in front of our police station and show the pill to an officer. If you do this, I'll bail you out It will cost me $1500 because I will be bailing you out on two felony charges of possession. If you do this and they say "so what, its not a crime", I will even pay for your trip.


I realize that the amount of time that I have devoted to this subject makes it seem like I have unlimited time, but I really don't. 



> According to this, it's not illegal to possess a Schedule V in NC


Well, actually I posted the Federal definition of a controlled substance and the schedules under that federal act. But here is the Indiana definition of a Schedule V according to the Indiana Legislative Web Page. It looks just like the federal definition of a Schedule V to me:

IC 35-48-2-12
Schedule V
35-48-2-12 Sec. 12. (a) The controlled substances listed in this section are included in schedule V.
(b) Narcotic drugs containing nonnarcotic active medicinal ingredients. Any compound, mixture, or preparation containing any of the following narcotic drugs, or their salts calculated as the free anhydrous base or alkaloid, in the following quantities, which shall include one or more nonnarcotic active medicinal ingredients in sufficient proportion to confer upon the compound, mixture, or preparation, valuable medicinal qualities other than those possessed by the narcotic drug alone:
(1) Not more than 200 milligrams of codeine per 100 milliliters or per 100 grams.
(2) Not more than 100 milligrams of dihydrocodeine per 100 milliliters or per 100 grams.
(3) Not more than 100 milligrams of ethylmorphine per 100 milliliters or per 100 grams.
(4) Not more than 2.5 milligrams of diphenoxylate and not less than 25 micrograms of atropine sulfate per dosage unit.
(5) Not more than 100 milligrams of opium per 100 milliliters or per 100 grams.
(6) Not more than 0.5 milligrams of difenoxin (9168), and not less than 25 micrograms of atropine sulfate per dosage unit.
(c) Buprenorphine (9064).
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.7. Amended by Acts 1979, P.L.303, SEC.7; Acts 1981, P.L.170, SEC.6; P.L.327-1985, SEC.3.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, Indiana. But people need to be able to carry their children's medications without being afraid of being convicted of a felony because they think its a controlled substance. Your state may be strict enough to have something to charge parents with if they are carrying their child's antibiotic, inhaler, epi-pen or whatever, but it won't be because it is a schedule V. None of these medications are Schedule V, even in Indiana. And if there is such a law, its a darned shame. What about the hurried working parents who drop their child off at school or daycare and give their child the Adderall or Ritalin in the car on the way to school. They can't send the child into school with the bottle of medication- in every state I've lived in the child would be suspended from school. So they get stopped on the way to work because of some minor traffic infraction and the cop sees the bottle on the seat and arrests them. Now we're talking Schedule II. I don't even want to know what the penalty for that must be in Indiana if possession of Ibuprofen and antibiotics is a class D felony. 

The chances of a anaphylaxis is very low with beesting reactions, but when it occurs its life or death and quick action is needed. Calling 911 is great, but if the victims throat has closed by the time EMS gets there they aren't going to be able to intubate them. And if they can't intubate them the only way to get air in is a tracheotomy. It would be great if you can buy that 5 or 10 or 15 minutes until EMS can arrive and go to work. Many states are offering classes now that will certify lay people (in NC it is for four years) on how to administer the epi-pen, how to recognize when it is needed and what to do after administering the epi-pen. Beekeeper organizations around my state are offering them and I for one think it is a good idea. Am I against Apitherapy? No. It has been miraculous to me just how well it is controlling the pain I have from a ruptured disc and degenerative disc disease.
Susan


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## RonS (Dec 28, 2004)

Susan,

You keep referencing Federal law in your posts (see page 3, 4, and 5). Prosecution under Federal law is different than State law. You can be prosecuted for the same offense under both venues. There are state criminal statutes not found in Federal criminal statutes. IndianaHoney tried to make the distinction, but apparently without success. If you feel confident carrying in NC, go for it; just don't do it in Indiana, or Texas, or most of the other state jurisdictions. Ignorance of the law, State or Federal, is no defense to prosecution. An assertion that what you did was legal in NC will not carry any defensive weight aganst a charge in Indiana.

You said that I accused you of hostility towards IndianaHoney. Actually, I reviewed my post and I did not, but that is what I was thinking. It appeared to me that you went after him without any knowledge of Indiana law. He sure knows it. All he was trying to do is warn people in Indiana, or those traveling through the state of a potential problem for beekeepers. For that, I thank him. To my reading, he was not advocating a ban on epi-pens. I don't think that states criminalize a parent or guardian from carrying the medications for their minor children or wards, provided the children or ward are in close proximity. What is criminalized is the possession of prohibited drugs when that possession cannot be reasonably associated with the minor. Remember, also, that the law enforcement officers must enforce laws on the books. That does not mean that the county prosecutor will charge, or the grand jury will indict the offender. 

So all this side-line banter aside, I don't have an epi-pen, but have been considering it.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Indiana, RonS brings up the prosecution aspect of these strict Indiana laws. An arrest for Ibuprofin is one thing, but what were the eventual consequences to this "arrestee" (OK, I know that can't be the official term ). Was she booked? Was the case prosecuted? Was there a plea bargain? Did she get time in the Big House? Just curious. 
Sheri


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

RonS said:


> Susan,
> 
> You keep referencing Federal law in your posts (see page 3, 4, and 5). Prosecution under Federal law is different than State law. You can be prosecuted for the same offense under both venues. There are state criminal statutes not found in Federal criminal statutes. IndianaHoney tried to make the distinction, but apparently without success. If you feel confident carrying in NC, go for it; just don't do it in Indiana, or Texas, or most of the other state jurisdictions. Ignorance of the law, State or Federal, is no defense to prosecution. An assertion that what you did was legal in NC will not carry any defensive weight aganst a charge in Indiana.
> 
> ...


Actually, RonS, to quote you in post #32, "Again, no need for hostility. He was just giving a good recommendation." 

And if you look at my last post, I addressed Indiana's statutes on controlled substances. I realize that you can be prosecuted under federal and/or state laws. I'm not arguing what behavior a state can or can't prosecute you for, although I think what I have been told here is unreasonable. That aside, I'm arguing who has the right to define a controlled substance. 

Since IndianaHoney insists that Indiana (the state) has its own definition of controlled substances I pulled up Indiana's legislative pages. Their definitions are a restatement of the federal definitions. That is part of the Uniform Controlled Substance Act which brings all states to the same definitions. Check your own state. I believe you said it is Texas. The laws regarding what is and isn't a controlled subject are the same as NC, Indiana AND the Controlled Substance Act of 1970. The amendments are all dated the same. This is no coincidence. 

As I acknowledged in my last post, Indiana may have laws where you can be convicted of a Class D felony for carrying antibiotics and Ibuprofen, but it won't be because it is a Schedule II or a Schedule V controlled substance. These two medications don't meet the criteria per Indiana Legislature which is the same as the Federal Controlled Substance Act. 

I'm sorry if my pointing this out means to you that I am hostile. I did not "go after him", but I do know what is a controlled substance. It is a DEA distinction. That's why MDs, Physician Assistants and Nurse Practitioners have to have DEA numbers that pharmacists can check against the federal DEA registry to determine if this is in fact someone with the legal authority to prescribe those medications. How states decide to prosecute criminals who break the laws concerning those controlled substances is up to the state. If Indiana (the state, not the person) wants to outlaw possession of Twinkies it may do so, but that doesn't make it a controlled substance. That is the distinction I am trying to make IndianaHoney (and now you) understand, also without success. 

As I said earlier, I have devoted way too much time to this issue. I am going back to what I was working on earlier: Cleaning up the 60 lb bucket of honey that my son dropped in the middle of the floor. 

Y'all have a pleasant day,
Susan


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Well, I called my doctor today (who is in NY) and I was told that they wouldn't write a perscription for an Epi-Pen, since I didn't have a history of severe allergic reaction, or any allerigic reaction to honeybee stings. Further I was told that it can be dangerous to administer it to someone else and it isn't worth the liability. So, no Epi Pen for this beekeeper....


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Sheri, 
She was booked, taken to the county jail and charged. She pleaded guilty, and recieved probabtion. Generally they don't sentence anyone to jail time over this, unless it was something like Oxy, or another abusable drug, and there was repeated offences. Personally, I don't see the point, I think they should have just tossed it. And lots of times they actually do toss it.

Susan,

Makes since, the only thing I can think of is that I may be mixing up schedule drugs with another classification. I haven't looked at my report in 3 years. Let me find it and I'll tell you exacty what the charge was. What I do know is that the pills were 1 urinary track infection pill, 1 800mg Ibuprofren, and that I she was charged with two counts of a class D feloney for possession of these drugs. We may be arguing two different things, and someone getting a term wrong. I'll let you know within a day or two.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Susan,

I called a friend of mine at the PD who looked up my old report for me. You were right on schedule drugs. However, Indiana has a Legend drug law which is what the lady in question was charged with.

IC 16-42-19-13
Possession or use of legend drug or precursor
Sec. 13. A person may not possess or use a legend drug or a precursor unless the person obtains the drug:
(1) on the prescription or drug order of a practitioner; or
(2) in accordance with section 11(2) or 21 of this chapter.

In Indiana all prescription drugs are termed Legend drugs. Possession without a prescription, or having the drug in your possession without the container that your name would be on is a class D felony. I was right in that it is a felony, but wrong in saying it was a schedule drug.

Anyway, check to make sure your state does not have a similar Legend drug law. If so, EpiPens will most likely be included in the Legend drug laws. And these laws are covering drugs like the 800mg Ibruprofren, and other simple antibiotics.

Be aware that laws like these have gotten many people in trouble when they had no intent to commit a crime, so take them seriously. In some states cops are not allowed to use discression with issues like this. I would think that most Prosecutors would throw out charges like these, but some will not. In my county, they will charge you. Unless your child is with you, Indiana makes no disctinction between you having your childs prescription with you, and you having it without a script.

I'll end the debate by saying, no matter what Federal drug laws are, State laws can still burn you.

Oh almost forgot, I don't think this was the orginal Legend drug law that the lady was charged with. If memory serves me, it was changed for some reason, I think to add a harsher penalty for the sale of legend drug. But the Class D felony was the same. The old one may have had a differnet IC code.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> Susan,
> 
> I called a friend of mine at the PD who looked up my old report for me. You were right on schedule drugs. However, Indiana has a Legend drug law which is what the lady in question was charged with.


That makes perfect sense. Legends drugs are defined under FDA guidelines (again, we all have the same list) and any prescription medication that doesn't fall under the schedules would fall under the definition of a legend drug. Apparently your state has much stricter laws concerning legend drugs. I have another reason to be glad I live in NC! 
Susan


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Ya! Unreasonably strict. I'd like to see someone who is charged with it challenge the fact that it's too broad. Possession of an antibiotic should not be a felony, in any state.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

How on earth would an officer even know someone had an 800mg ibuprophen or antibiotic in their pocket? Please don't tell me Indiana has unreasonable search laws also. 
Sheri


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## Kelbee (Jan 3, 2006)

I can’t help but speak up here and risk being labeled “hostile”.

Indianahoney,
You’ve gone to great effort to quote numerous state and federal laws which define who is authorized to possess and use various prescription drugs. But at no point do any of these laws specify that these drugs must remain in the labeled container that the pharmacist dispensed them in. On the contrary, every pharmacy in existence sells and encourages the use of a variety of unlabelled pill containers that help folks keep track of the often complex dosing of multiple medications. We’ve all seen those pill boxes with the rows of compartments to fill with a week’s worth of various medications at a time so they can be carried around conveniently and taken at the proper time. Are we supposed to believe that everyone who uses these boxes (probably half of the elderly population of Indiana) is committing a felony? If so, shouldn’t they prosecute the pharmacies for promoting and selling illegal drug paraphernalia?

Yeah, I suppose if a suspected drug pusher was found with some unidentifiable loose pills, they might be subject to arrest until it was confirmed what/whose they were and what they were doing with them.

When someone makes a claim that is unbelievable, it’s usually because some important details have been left out. Clearly this is the case here. Indianahoney ultimately concedes that this lady was actually charged with the SALE of prescription drugs. Not really what’s being discussed here in this epipen thread.

I’ll challenge anyone from any state to find an actual case where someone was charged/convicted for the simple possession of a loose pill of their own (or family members) unscheduled prescription medication. Indianahoney’s case certainly isn’t one.


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Please don't tell me Indiana has unreasonable search laws also.
> Sheri


Oh my gosh... I hadn't thought of that. Now I know I'm not going there!


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Sheri,

Usually we found them on traffic stops, especially if the stop resulted in an arrest because we would search the individual and inventory the contents of the vehicle if it was to be towed. However, some cases resulted from plain sight rules, that would be a traffic stop and I saw the presciption bottle, or pills in plain sight. If I made a traffic stop and never saw the bottle or pills because all I did was write a citation or written warning, I would never know. Lots of times I would just ignore the prescription bottle even if I saw it, the reason was because I was aware that if it didn't have that person's name on it, I would end up arresting them.

Kelbee,

IndianaHoney (me) did not in fact concede that she was actually charged with the sale of prescription drugs, re-read what I wrote. I wrote that the Legend drug law may have been changed to provide a harsher penalty for the sale of such drugs. If you read the statute that I posted, it was concerning the possession. In Indiana, laws that are related to each other are usually grouped together in the IC code book, this is to avoid confussion. If the state makes a change to just a part of a law such as the sale of Legend Drugs, they often rewrite the entire law. I do not appreciate being called a lier either dirrectly or implied. Oh, and for your challenge, yes the case that I spoke of was one. She was charged with two counts of Possession of a Legend Drug, this was the result of finding a urinary track infection pill, and a 800mg Ibuprofren, it was found durring a search incident to arrest, meaning I searched her when I was arresting her for Driving while Suspended w/ a prior conviction. In other cases I arrested people when I saw the loose pills on a traffic stop, and they had no prescription bottle. What I did concede was that I was wrong on the crime she was charged with, I was thinking that I arrested her for possession of a schedule V drug, when I had my friend look up the case for me, I found that I had arrested her for possession of a legend drug, a similar charge in that they are both D felonies in Indiana. This is a 3 year old case, and I havn't been an officer for two years, so I'm sure some people could understand my lapse in memory, especially given the fact that I had hundreds of cases to deal with at any given time.

Your statement:
"Yeah, I suppose if a suspected drug pusher was found with some unidentifiable loose pills, they might be subject to arrest until it was confirmed what/whose they were and what they were doing with them."

My reply:
Actually, If you were the officer and you arrested this person, you would then be sued, and possibly arrested for false arrest. If you can't identify the pill, you have no probable cause to make the arrest. What they would be subject to is investigative custody, until I could identify, or could not identify the pills. But holding the person more than the appropriate time that it would take to look the pills up would result in the case being thrown out via the exclussionary rule even if I did identify them later. In other words, the courts wouldn't like me holding them more than a couple hours if I couldn't identify the pills. I would then send the pills into a lab to see what they were, and arrest via a warrent later if the pills did turn out to be a controlled substance, or legend drug.


As for the pill boxes, its not illegal to market a box to keep your pills in. It is however, illegal in Indiana to have them in your possession without having a prescription. If I found a pill that was in a pill box, and the person did have the bottle with them also, there is no crime. See the reason a person can be arrested is not really that the law directly states that it has to be in the prescription bottle. But if I were to find a prescription pill on you, and you did not have the prescription bottle on you, how would I know that you really do have a prescription, hince the arrest. You could then bring the bottle into the PA and see if he/she would drop the charges, I assume most would. However, I have not seen many cases were ours have dropped the charges. As for having your kid's prescription with you and getting arrested, how does the officer know that this person is really your kid if the kid is not with you, hince the arrest. It is then up to the PA. If you have your kid with you, and claim the person's name on the script bottle is your kid, the officer can assume that is true. If the kid is not with you, the officer has no way of knowing if that statement is true or not. Some officers would ignore it, and not make the arrest, others would not ignore if there PA is strict on officer discression. Like I said before, these laws (at least in Indiana) puts the burdon of proof on the defendant, which should be unconstitutional. Either way, if you are arrested, and the charges don't stick, you have been cuffed, taken to jail, spent a few hours in a jail cell, and if you used a bail bondsman, you're out 600-1000 dollars. If that doesn't matter to you, then be my guest.

As for charging these companies when someone else is arrested while using their product, the making, marketing and even the use of the product is not a crime. But I could invision a cival suit in the future. Matter of fact, I'm supprised there has been no cival suit brought against a doctor or pharmacy for not informing their customers about these laws.

Now, I admit my mistake in stating the wrong charge to begin with, and I do make mistakes at times. Yours was implying that I was lying, and/or did not know what I was talking about. I was an officer for a number of years, which means that I at minimum have a good idea as to what I'm talking about. And you have how many years experience in the crimal justice system? Consider who and what you are talking about before you make a statement. I don't come here and tell Micheal Bush that he doesn't know how to keep bees, because I would be a fool for telling someone with his experience that he is wrong. I posted what I posted as a heads up to everyone, not to go tit for tat. Be assured that I won't make that mistake again.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Thanks Indiana
Bet you didn't guess that when you posted that headsup you would be giving some of us a lesson in Indiana law! Good stuff to know.
 
Sheri


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Sheri, when I was an officer it was hard to miss the feeling that most people were hostile and distrusting toward you, even when you were just trying to help. I think the reason is people feel that officers are telling them what to do, and how to live their lives. Most people see officers as big brother. The sad thing is that we brought it on ourselves. Perhaps I inadvertently sparked that reaction here. If so, then I apologize.


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## leamon (Mar 30, 2006)

Isn't this a good example of 'shooting the messenger'? It seems to me that all Indianahoney was trying to do was give a warning so someone might avoid trouble with the law. If you thought he was wrong, what would it have hurt to just let it pass? I, for one value the warning.
leamon


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## IslandMountainFarm (Feb 13, 2007)

*Just in case something goes horribly wrong*

That's the reason I always have one immediately available. You just never know what kind of freak thing might happen. I used to have quite a high tolerance, but it's been years since I've been stung.

If you're working in a remote location it's taking quite a gamble that you'll get to help before you're in deep trouble. There are some things I'd rather not gamble on.

That said, if someone knows a reasonably priced source I appreciate your sharing. Best price I could come up with was $50 this year and I'd love to pay less.


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## kamerrill (Sep 17, 2003)

Of course, another option is to go with something that is not an auto injector but this would require a little more training and practice. You can purchase a 1cc ampule (60cents) and a 1cc insulin syringe (maybe 2-3 cents). This would cost under a buck but would require you to learn how to draw-up and deliver the appropriate dose.

I would also urge people to be careful when using auto injectors. Remember not to put your thumb over the top of the device when injecting. There are several cases where the device was held upside down and the person put their thumb over the top - the needle shoots up through the thumb with a full does of epi. Being such a potent vasoconstrictor... well, lets just say that it wasn't too good for their thumb.


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## Pricelessfarm (Apr 16, 2007)

A good rule of thumb is that state law can never supercede federal law

As long as you have the doctors presc with you it should be ok 

the problem you run into is when you have the meds in a unprescribed container or cannot provide a script

And then the meds must be schd 2 narcotics

So I'm told by a 34yr vetran of the Virginia State Police 

just throwing in my 2cents because its a intersting topic 
I'm not calling anyone out


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## Gregory and Susan Fariss (Aug 19, 2006)

Pricelessfarm said:


> the problem you run into is when you have the meds in a unprescribed container or cannot provide a script
> 
> And then the meds must be schd 2 narcotics
> 
> ...


They may choose to charge you with a Schedule II narcotic if they don't know what you have in your possession in Virginia, but you would then have your day in court. If what you have turns out to be Aspirin or an antibiotic, the charges won't stick. I'm not calling anyone out either, just making the point that if you are not carrying a Schedule II, they can't convict you of it. Epi-pens come in boxes that are properly labeled by the pharmacy. Just keep them in their boxes and all should be well with the world... the world of getting busted for drugs... assuming you don't have anything else in your possession that maybe you shouldn't have. 

Susan


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## Pricelessfarm (Apr 16, 2007)

I might have not been to clear in my statement before it was late when I posted 

they all carry PDR's and know what kind of pill you have before your charged 

what I ment to say was you would only be charged if it was schd 2 they wouldnt charge you if its wasn't schd2


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