# Pull honey......dump out the bees....call it good



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

christo
indidvidul bees only live about 40 days anyway when foraging. Back before movable frames every good bee keeper killed about a third of his hives to get the honey. 

If he is willing to do the work for what he gets out of it, I have no issue with it. Every pollinater is said to lose about ten percent of thier bees every time they are moved due to stress. If it puts shoes on his kids feet, good for him, cause I know he is working his butt off.
I don't have any issue with any of them.
Cheers
gww


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Perhaps he would give you his bees instead of letting them all die? Actually, this type of self serving exploitation is sickening. Here we are doing everything we can to help the bees survive, and this jerk is purposely killing his after he steals everything they worked so hard for. Anyone got a woodshed?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

gww said:


> christo
> indidvidul bees only live about 40 days anyway when foraging. Back before movable frames every good bee keeper killed about a third of his hives to get the honey.
> 
> If he is willing to do the work for what he gets out of it, I have no issue with it. Every pollinater is said to lose about ten percent of thier bees every time they are moved due to stress. If it puts shoes on his kids feet, good for him, cause I know he is working his butt off.
> ...


He is not killing individual bees, he is killing a hive. The hive is the organism we are trying to sustain. I bet no-one would buy his honey if they knew what he did to the bees.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Christo I have heard of it years and years ago of people up north doing that.I felt it was a big waste also but back then we had no mites or beetle in the south and there were plenty of bees.Get nucs and get them started and take everything when the frost killed the flow.Yep a big waste to me also.


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## MimbresBees (Sep 22, 2016)

lol, yes, this is a common old school technique.
and still done by tens of thousands of beeks, that's why the package bee biz is so huge.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jw


> He is not killing individual bees, he is killing a hive. The hive is the organism we are trying to sustain. I bet no-one would buy his honey if they knew what he did to the bees.


It is aggraculture. Most people keep bees for what they can get from them not what they can do for the bees. Some have just found they can get more by keeping them alive. 

What do you think happens to the pollinators that move to pollination which causes hive death. And then moves again from the polination fields and kills more bees and then some shake those bees and send them south and sell them to newbees and kill some more.

I am not willing to say they are bad people. They are farmers. Thats like telling the egg farmer not to cull his chickens to keep them at an age where they still lay eggs.

For the bees being in such bad shape they sure do sell a lot of packages every year.

There are issues with bee health that if fixed will make this farming a better deal but it is still farming for a bunch of people. Now they may love farming bees better then farming anything else and so I guess you could say they like bees but most don't keep bees cause it is a pet or a child.

Nobody thought when skeps or log gums were being kept that killing a portion of your bees that you could replace next year with your swarms was bad.

I bet one thing, his package supplyer won't mind and may even wish they guy had 40 hives instead of twenty. I bet he can fill his order.
Typed with belief but bad will to no one.
Cheers
gww


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I understand the business model and agree that it probably works best for him. In keeping with the agriculture theme, does the farmer shoot his milk cows when they go dry and leave them in the field to rot? Or does he freshen them so that they will produce next year?
I would think that it is cheaper to maintain the hives than to keep starting from nucs or packages every year. More honey to sell also.

BTW, eggshell quality is crap after the second year but the chicken still cooks up nice in the stewpot


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jw


> I would think that it is cheaper to maintain the hives than to keep starting from nucs or packages every year. More honey to sell also.


I really don't think that is the case. I think in places like alaska, they have a really short intence flow but it is short enough that it is not easy to do both (get honey and stores for the bees to winter on). I am sure it comes down to money. Your milk cow may need a shed and a bull and if you only have one it might be cheaper to buy milk then to buy twenty acres to put her on.
Cheers
gww


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## beefarmer (May 2, 2010)

I know of a guy who has hundreds of hives, shakes bees out in the fall to a buyer down south, and buys hundreds of pacs in the spring, like he says no winter loses, no need to medicate to overwinter, and gets alot more honey. Granted he is not killing them off, which I also hate the idea of just dumping them out.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

"I would think that it is cheaper to maintain the hives than to keep starting from nucs or packages every year. More honey to sell also."

Without getting into the moral/philosophical issue, the biggest advantage of package beekkeping is more pounds of honey per hour of labour. Essentially you don't have to be a highly skilled beekeeper to get honey from packages. No need to kill varroa, no need to prevent swarming on a 2 year old queen, no need to change queens. These are all things that require a certain degree of skill and they take time/money.

Jean-Marc


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Look at their base model. Say 90 lb of honey is left for winter. At packers prieces that is $180 dallors of honey. A package is costing him around $70 per. You have to remember the saving in chemicals and labor in over wintering. I to know one that does about 900 packages a year.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

The more honey per hour is part of the business model that I agree probably works best for him. I just look at bees as being a perienial rather than an annual. In this guys situation, I like the idea of selling the bees off, which is why the first thing I mentioned was about acquiring the bees. Anyhow, to each their own. But, if anyone else subscribes to this model and lives on the east coast, call me in September and I will pick up the bees.


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## Christo (May 28, 2012)

Bummer that he's not alone in what he does. He's dumping (killing) the entire hive. The whole thing just seems unethical and terrible livestock management. 

I sell spring nucs, so I NEED to have my bees come through the winter healthy or I won't have anything to work with in the spring. 

Guess this is why they make so many packages every year and why I'd refuse to sell this guy any of my nucs. This might also explain why he was driving a new $70k pickup, and why I'm still driving my 14 year old one. Guess if you don't let ethics get in the way you can boost your profits significantly.

It was just disappointing to learn this even happens. It was an enlightening conversation to say the least.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

The practice of just 'dumping' or 'abandoning' bees is likely more common than any of us know, and considerably more common with commercial outfits. 

(But like our dogs or cats, the bees never tell on us )

Back when I began this BEE adventure (mid 70's) I was 'taught' to pick up pollinator colonies during the day (when foragers are foraging), and have long been troubled knowing that those foragers return to an empty space where their home used to be.....and soon perish.....I think it had something to do with paying employees some extra overtime.

Some Cranberry growers/pollinators still do it this way up here in Northern Wisconsin, in spite of attempts to offer other options/solutions.....and for the life of me, I don't understand it. Not when picking up/moving hives can be done after dark when all bees are home. 

I suppose we can Chalk it up to our collective belief in Human Self Importance, which allows for the proliferation of many other nonsensical behaviors that we regularly perform without much thought of the future consequences :scratch:.

"To be be a friend of the Earth, we must be an enemy of the people." - TC Boyle


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

There’s a beesource member from Ohio who has been doing this for decades. He is, I’ve heard, the largest honey producer in the state. The one difference is that he sells his bees at season’s end. 
I believe it was common practice in Canada before varroa and the closing of the borders to importation of US bees. As beekeepers it sounds pretty harsh but as a business model….it works.


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

beemandan said:


> The one difference is that he sells his bees at season’s end.


That's my suggestion. If it bothers you, offer to buy his bees cheap. He gets some cash he wouldn't have otherwise and you get cheap bees plus the added bonus of feeling better about the whole thing.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Christo said:


> This interaction has been bugging me since it happened and figured it was worth sharing.


I agree it is well worth sharing, share his bees and your equipment. 

When does extract and dump his bees ? As a good bleeding heart liberal I would be willing to help him out by spending the summer drawing out as much comb as possible, making late weak splits and stocking them with his shake outs. Would take a pile of equipment a ton of sugar and a lot of work = spring nucs with overwintered queens.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

IMO it's unethical, anything for a buck, big business getting way too greedy plain and simple. 

I bet it was also in Hitler's business plan to save some food stores. 

It's also lost honey potential as MP pointed out to that Ohio "beekeeper" in a thread a couple of years ago; an overwinter hive will produce more than a package start in spring.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

FlowerPlanter said:


> IMO it's unethical, anything for a buck, big business getting way too greedy plain and simple.
> 
> I bet it was also in Hitler's business plan to save some food stores.
> 
> It's also lost honey potential as MP pointed out to that Ohio "beekeeper" in a thread a couple of years ago; an overwinter hive will produce more than a package start in spring.


Hitler? WHAT?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Do as GaSteve suggests, pool your money and go buy them from him and all the others who view their bees as expendable in the fall.
Problem solved.


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## yankeeboy (Feb 24, 2016)

I think you guys need to look at the situation as a "half glass full"- guaranteed bee sales every spring. Your operation can be sustainable while his cannot.


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## BHH9 (Jul 22, 2017)

Probably has customers who buy his "local honey" to help "save the bees" ugh ... well guess it is local.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

FlowerPlanter said:


> IMO it's unethical, anything for a buck, big business getting way too greedy plain and simple.
> 
> I bet it was also in Hitler's business plan to save some food stores.
> 
> It's also lost honey potential as MP pointed out to that Ohio "beekeeper" in a thread a couple of years ago; an overwinter hive will produce more than a package start in spring.


Godwin's law reigns. And only 19 posts in!


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## jooky (Mar 18, 2016)

ya if it bothers you. buy his bees, then sell them back to him in the spring


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## AmericanApiaries (Jan 27, 2017)

Christo said:


> I happened to run across a guy this weekend that called himself a beekeeper. He's in the suburbs of Chicago raising vegetables and selling honey at his private stand. He gets top dollar for everything because of his prime location. As we here chatting I inquired as to what he does for winter prep on that side of Lake Michigan. I'm always interested in how things are done in different areas. He flatly stated that in the fall he just pulls the honey, dumps out the bees and puts the equipment away for next year. He just buys new bees in the spring. He runs around 20 hives for honey.
> 
> Is anyone else completely sickened by this??? I was totally stunned and felt myself getting angry, so I just walked away from the conversation and went on with my day visiting my yards and feeding my bees.
> 
> ...


which suburb of Chicago if you don't mind me asking? Homer Glen?


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Their bugs. I hope termites don't eventually benefit from the emotional response.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

It does not make it right because it's profitable. 

And should not be someone else's reasonability to take care of their live stock because they can't and find it more profitable not too. 

As others have pointed out; How much honey do you think they would sell if their customers knew they dumped their bees in order to collect every last drop. How damaging to the honey industry would this be to beekeepers if it was on say 20/20... After all "Save the Honey Bees" has created quite the thriving industry in supplies and packages partly due to the publicity of CCD.


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## Christo (May 28, 2012)

American Apiaries - I truly can't remember what suburb it was and I sure didn't start this thread to publicly throw anyone under the bus.

The idea of acquiring a bunch of hives late in the summer without any stores and trying the prep them for a Michigan winter sounds like a disaster in the making. Maybe down south they'd stand a chance, but I don't see it being a success here.

Very surprised to learn this practice is much more common than I thought. My past 6 years of keeping have been spent learning, making mistakes and trying to figure out how to keep all my hives healthy and ALIVE. Even with the frustrations of weather, mites, hive beetles and sugar/equipment costs, exploiting them to this extent wasn't even on my radar. 


Learning this sure didn't make me even consider that this management style. Not for me at all, but everyone needs to find out what works best for their own situation. Glad this isn't my situation.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

When he harvests may surprise you. With a thoroughly Italian queen he may loose weight the longer he goes into fall. Heavy syrup with drawn comb backs away fast.


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## spencer (Dec 7, 2004)

FlowerPlanter said:


> IMO it's unethical, anything for a buck, big business getting way too greedy plain and simple.
> 
> I bet it was also in Hitler's business plan to save some food stores.
> 
> It's also lost honey potential as MP pointed out to that Ohio "beekeeper" in a thread a couple of years ago; an overwinter hive will produce more than a package start in spring.


I think he said the guy had 20 hives. That's hardly "big business".

Hitler's business plan?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

The Ohio beek bought the packages by the truck load, to replace the hives that were shaken out in the fall. Maybe someone remembers the thread?


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

I’m only a hobby beekeeper so I do not know what is the best way to keep bees as business. However, as a consumer, I would never buy honey if I knew a significant fraction of honey producers do that kind of practice. After all, honey is not the essential grocery item, so buyer’s feeling can play a significant role in purchasing decision, whether it is rational or not.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

JWPalmer said:


> He is not killing individual bees, he is killing a hive. The hive is the organism we are trying to sustain. I bet no-one would buy his honey if they knew what he did to the bees.


Agree!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

> He is not killing individual bees, he is killing a hive. The hive is the organism we are trying to sustain. I bet no-one would buy his honey if they knew what he did to the bees.
> Agree!


My understanding, maby wrong, is the studies they did on moving hives like for polinating and such that there was a ten percent loss of hives, not bees. Polination still has to be done but it would make it hard for the pot to call the kettle black for a lot of bee keeper practices. Mel deiselkoen make very small splits from hives expecting large numbers of those splits not to survive but in playing the numbers game, he figures he still comes out with more. He does however know that lots will not make it.

I don't know? It is easy to say how the other guy is such a bad bee keeper but there is plenty of blame all around. On guy might say that the guy that didn't treat caused him to lose a bunch of hives and another guy might say that he would not lose as many hives as he does if people would just quit treating. Some guys have bad queen return in thier splits because they have not set up their hives in a horseshoe pattern and painted them all a differrent color. Why could the guy that does set his hive up that way and has better queen return not say that people that don't go that trouble are unethical. I mean he is killing 10 percent of hives that would not have to die.

I like that there are more then one way to skin a cat and so I don't try and point fingers but more try and learn the pros and cons of such bee keeping so I can decide what I want to put my efforts toward.

If we decide the bee is like my chickens that become pets and that I keep differrent then a commercail operation does then I guess I could look down on the comercial guy but I bet I still buy his chicken when it is on sale cause I might want to BBQ this weekend.
Cheers
gww


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

A bee is a bug. We probably a good many bugs just walking around.
There is no morality question about killing bees. There are a ton of things going on that we could focus moral scrutiny on and do a lot of good for humans.

Actually this practice of beekeeping was/is pretty common (esp. in northern climates).
It is economical and a pretty good business plan. Say a northern keeper winters bees with 150#. How much would you get for that extra 150#? I am guess a good bit more than any package (esp. purchased whole sale) would be. Also because there is no overwintering - there is no need for treating the bees. So they can sell clean wax, clean honey. "Good for the environment" no chemicals. 

If it is upsetting - I am pretty sure he would jump at the chance to sell those bees. That is even better profit. Someone could build their hives up to the standard needed to go to almonds.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

JWPalmer said:


> He is not killing individual bees, he is killing a hive. The hive is the organism we are trying to sustain. I bet no-one would buy his honey if they knew what he did to the bees.


Actually lots of people buy honey from beekeepers who do this.
And if people are willing to accept (I know this will go away - but it is true so I will say it) babies dying every year (on purpose) and ignore it - - I think they can swallow bees.?.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

MikeJ said:


> Actually lots of people buy honey from beekeepers who do this.
> And if people are willing to accept (I know this will go away - but it is true so I will say it) babies dying every year (on purpose) and ignore it - - I think they can swallow bees.?.


I agree with what you say Mike, our society is backwards, and a “ throw away” and hard hearted society too. Sad but true. BUT, I don’t agree with taking advantage of these honey bees and purposely, for money, do this. If we decide to “keep” bees we should do our best with caring for them, especially when pollinators are in peril now. What that man did is wrong. He should not call himself a beekeeper, and no rationale in my eyes makes it right. And yes, I am judging what he is doing just like you are-judging (and I) the killing of babies.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

For those that it seems unfair to have a bee do all that work and then they are dumped on the ground. Putting it on moral grounds that that is unfair. I wonder how many have a wonderful laying queen that has a perfect laying pattern and produced great numbers of foragers that come at the right time and work themselve to death. I just wonder how many think nothing of replacing that queen before winter so they have a freash queen and thier hive is less likily to swarm. Does the queen that did such good work deserve to be thrown away like that. It would seem to be the same argument as was made for the bees that worked so hard. So where is this moral line where a guy can not be wrong?

Hey, I am just goofing, I already said the practice doesn't bother me. It does seem to be the same though and not questioned as bad.
Cheers
gww


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## Christo (May 28, 2012)

Isn't this a crazy thought provoking situation? I've read everyone's responses and am really impressed with the different viewpoints. I think that before I started keeping bees I wouldn't have been as 'bugged' by the scenario. Now that I have worked tirelessly to learn how to help my hives to survive and take such pride in the nucs they produce that I couldn't imagine just throwing them away. Takes all kinds in every aspect of the world.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

This quote I find interesting;
"After all " Save the Honey Bees " has created quite the thriving industry in supplies and packages partly due to the publicity of CCD".

The first thing that pops into mind is how then is this different to the loose ethics of the person cited in the OP?
Like, how is it OK for houses of commerce to cash in on populist themes (dogma) and not so for individuals?

Not so much today, but there was a time when I "cashed in" on pollination demands being there was no real money in honey at that time in Australia.
Purely business, derived from installed knowledge, I did make a packet in what really was quick time. Others twigged to the business and flooded the supply, I cashed out on that too.

And - only to put perspective on one comment made as to polliator's practice - I add to that in underlining the industry has to sustain colonies between seasons. Often that too incorporates business losses above the baseline of losing some older foragers when relocating to another crop/location.

It was my practice to close up after midday post the morning foraging or at least after the dew had risen. That method ensured your pollon foragers were on board leaving behind low numbers of older bees close to term anyway. I know others before me and since have different policies, but it is farming, and just as nobody buys seconds at Woolworths, or weeps when budded roses are cut, the product demand cycle rules. 
That demand is created by the very same people bagging the person targetted in the OP.
I see that guy being no different to the 'fossickers' at farmer's markets picking through reject produce to sell it at cotters markets within concerntrated populations, nor indeed the dumpster divers 'harvesting' food for charities, or in some cases, again, selling.

As for the Godwin declaration?
A rather poor showing, in discussion. IMHO OMMV

Bill


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Christo


> I think that before I started keeping bees I wouldn't have been as 'bugged' by the scenario. Now that I have worked tirelessly to learn how to help my hives to survive and take such pride in the nucs they produce that I couldn't imagine just throwing them away.


I feel the very same way but I also really have no need from my bees except to stroke my pride and to feel a little productive on something that is fun to learn about.
Cheers
gww

Ps hi bill


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## flyingron (Sep 14, 2017)

We have those who keep them for pollenation here that don't overwinter them either. They just start over every year.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

I understand the ones that are upset about it. Our *feelings* do not make morals.

I was raised in towns. So farming/livestock was not in me from a child - which tends to make you not as "smart" about animals. I am not any kind of animal "wacko" by the farthest stretch of the imagination - but, I feel bad when I have to take a cow to be slaughtered, or when the chickens need to have their necks sliced - - *but* I keep perspective. They are animals, not humans. If an animal (bug in this case) dies - sad, but definitely not a question of morals.

We get odd ideas about animals/bees. Because we *think* we are taking care of them - we then think *they rely on us*. We start to think of them a nice, affectionate - or even "cuddly" (well some people do).

I remember very early on, I had a cow tied and waiting to get milked. She was bellowing and acting up - I walked over to her and said - "Ahh, you want to be petted" and started to reach out to rub her on the back of the neck.... she promptly butted my below my stomach.
Moral of the story - animals/bugs want you to *leave them alone*. They don't like you, they don't love you, they don't want to be cuddled - they want to do what they are supposed to do and preferably without you around (that is the dirty secrets of cats and dogs as well - that little cat purring about your legs, doesn't care about you - it wants more food, or wants the door opened - - all about "me"). 

Bees have no trouble dying to sting me. They don't want us in their home, they don't want us rearranging their "furniture", they most definitely do not want us taking their food. They care as much about you - as you do about the worm you put on your hook last time you went fishing.

It is cold - but that is the way it is. No less immoral to dump bees than to eat a dead chicken/cow.
I don't personally like the idea, but my personal opinions do not change morals (as most probably guessed - I go by God's Word, and it set morals - nothing in there about it being wrong - so no matter my personal *feelings*, it isn't immoral).


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

FlowerPlanter:
I think I know what your talking about. I doubt the two are the same person - that one is a big operator.
Besides - we don't need some "social justice" posse search the forum for "criminals" 

Besides - I am pretty sure they do not dump them anymore. I am pretty sure they sell them out to beekeepers going to almonds.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Livestock is in our CARE.
That means we should CARE. It´s not immoral to use livestock, it´s immoral to torture it ( to death). Torture can be how it is kept or how it is used.
Man is the only mammal who does this and even feel good or powerful about this. Even a cat uses the mouse she plays with as a teaching to her young and not as a torture on purpose.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

They are bees. It works for him. Not the way i would do it but my way is my business and his way is his. I'm suddenly imagining one of those peta commercials with sara mclachlan music and a sad bee flying around with no hive to go home to. Some could argue that going treatment free and allowing mites to kill a hive is torture. I'm not one, my first three years were tf and i am tf this year as well due to circumstances beyond my control. Still hope to hit them with oav after thanksgiving though if at all possible. To each their own.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

That peta comment is cynical.

And to tf, no tf beekeeper loves his hives to be killed by mites, but still the mites don´t do it on purpose just as no tf beekeeper does.
Treated hive die of mites too.

I had a paralyze hive I could not save and killed it rather than letting the bees die over days because they could not fly anymore.


> They are bees.


How do you know bees have no feelings? I did not feel good about killing them just not about them being sick.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Didn't mean to sound cynical i just thought it was funny. I just think how this guy runs his operation is his business. Like i said it's not for me but not my business. And i would love to return to tf some day if i could achieve the same results that i do by treating.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@SiWolKe only;
"Even a cat uses the mouse she plays with as a teaching to her young and not as a torture on purpose."

So, I am a Mouse....fit for purpose in training others to your world view.
So does it fit (metaphorically) it is my lot to suffer clawing of my buttocks, third tissue bites to my ear lobe, and my lips being chewed off, just so your
'young' can witness procreation?
Boy..!!..< wipes brow> ... *now* we are really getting into demand and supply!

I like your style.. iffn I was thirty years younger : blush:

Bill


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

It´s instinctly not deliberately done.

How different our thinking is reading this discussion. 
I think I´m very privileged to be allowed to be emphatic.
No offense meant


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

SiWolKe said:


> Livestock is in our CARE.
> That means we should CARE. It´s not immoral to use livestock, it´s immoral to torture it ( to death). Torture can be how it is kept or how it is used.
> Man is the only mammal who does this and even feel good or powerful about this. Even a cat uses the mouse she plays with as a teaching to her young and not as a torture on purpose.


?
I am thinking you have not spent a lot of time watching cats? Yes they will hunt to teach the kittens, but they also do so without kittens. I would say that what cats do to their prey is "torture" - but only if one could say such a thing about animals that do not reason (which one can't).

As for "man ... only ... who does this ... feel good ... powerful.."?? (I am ignoring the man/mammal comment, another adjustment of language brought about by science to "change the language" kind of like "women's reproductive care" but anyway.....)
All the animals in the world that eat meat do this (i.e. "torture" their prey). I doubt the gazelle "thinks" it is humane.
How about the animals that rip their prey apart - alive?
The animals/bees would just as well see you dead as not.

Anyway - how animals behave have *nothing* to do with a discussion on how humans should behave.
The bees are not tortured - they starve to death - or get cold and sleep (one they don't wake up from).

As I said - I understand the *feelings* - - but that is all it is *feelings*.
As for the pollinators - - we are told that honey bees were not even in America before European settlement.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Mike


> As for the pollinators - - we are told that honey bees were not even in America before European settlement.


Most of the plants that the bees polinate and that we eat were not here either.
Just one other fun fact.

I do see people wanting thier bees to do well for finacial reasons as well as the pride factor of just doing real well at something.

The rest is real muddy cause a point could be made at some practice that everyone does that some one else does better. How good or bad something is, is usually looked at from the eyes of the beholder. 

I agree there has to be some common aproch to what is good and bad. If a dog with rabies bit you kid, it would probly be good to shoot it but probly bad to first break all of its bones to get even with it before you shoot it.

I do find that it is kind of funny that we can run around with a fly swatter and kill flys all day or set mouse traps but we should not shoot our cow. The logic of that has to come down to what we can get from our cow and it not being a smart thing to lose that what we can get.

I do dissagree a bit on you amimal logic being total instinct. If my wife leaves for the day my dog will mope all day and it is not because she is hungery or needs to go to the bath room. I also agree though that we can not have too many dogs just running around doing what they want cause that causes too much trouble for the humans and the things humans own and so we do accept getting rid of some of them as part of life.

Life is a bit muddy and hypocritical at times and so I guess we just have to do our best.
Cheers
gww


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Until there is no shortage of bees, there still is room for improvement in the business plan. Morality avoided.

Humans do share one trait pretty universally; Morality is more comfortable looking outward than inward.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Exactly!

Who among us hasn't _deliberately_ killed wasps, flies, mosquitoes, fleas, ticks etc. From a "moral" perspective, those insects have just as much _right to life_ as do honey bees.



:bus


... and how about _mice_ ...


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

gww said:


> Mike
> ...
> Most of the plants that the bees polinate and that we eat were not here either.
> Just one other fun fact.
> ...


Yes, of course plants were also brought/introduced - I did not consider that, but also America does have a tremendous variety of native pollinators. Honeybees are just the most efficient for people to use/handle/work/profit from. I am *guessing* that if all the honeybees died in America, the native pollinators would fill the gaps well enough.... of course WE would lose other benefits.

My comments on pets was meant to be both funny (maybe I don't do funny well ) as well as true. I did not try to include all the reasons for animal behavior - there are others.... my main point was - animals do not *love* us. Love is a reasoning and action (not just emotion). Animals react on what we would call emotion. There is no reasoning/controls to govern it. In humans this is extremely bad and dangerous.
A dog moping about does not mean it "misses" or "loves" you or me. To the dog they want/like something and you or me not being there means they can't have it.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

The animal kingdom is about survival, playing with prey is a means to keep hunting skills tuned, ripping apart there pray is about eating...That one caribou that dies by the wolf also ensures the remainder of it's species lives on. 

Wasps, flies, mosquitoes, fleas, ticks threaten our health and cause us pain, it's survival.

Shaking out your live stock leaving them for dead to make an extra buck is a whole different thing altogether. 

And as I pointed out above, if this practice was made public the whole beekeeping industry would suffer. Just ask Monsanto and Bayer how much $$$ it's costing them just on the suspicion their products accidently kills bees. 

I am sure no one that has posted here thus far practiced this method, at least they won't openly admit it, for good reason. But if you do and feel there is nothing wrong with it; why don't you to call your local press and invite them over for your fall honey harvest. Is it even conceivable that anyone that would invite the press? Absolutely not!!! Why if there is nothing wrong with it?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

FlowerPlanter said:


> The animal kingdom is about survival, playing with prey is a means to keep hunting skills tuned, ripping apart there pray is about eating...That one caribou that dies by the wolf also ensures the remainder of it's species lives on.
> 
> Wasps, flies, mosquitoes, fleas, ticks threaten our health and cause us pain, it's survival.
> 
> ...


Thanks FlowerPlanter.:applause:


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

FlowerPlanter,

On a morality basis I hesitate to go there; too many eligible practices on my part, even as simple as driving a V8 150 for less than a good reason, splatting bugs and chipmunks as I go (no, not on purpose).

From a business standpoint you are absolutely correct. It looks and smells bad without a business need. Beekeeping does not need a SPCA movie.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Wasps, flies, mosquitoes, fleas, ticks threaten our health and cause us pain, it's survival.


"threaten our health and cause us pain" ... well, _so do honey bees_. :lookout:

Plenty of people get stung by honey bees, and some _even die_! 


> Alex Bestler and a friend were on a morning hike in Usery Mountain Park in Arizona when, without provocation, a large swarm of hostile bees attacked. Bestler, 23, was overtaken by the aggressive bees and stung more than 1,000 times, authorities said Thursday.
> 
> Several people attempted to help Bestler as he lay on the ground, covered in bees, but the would-be rescuers were driven back by the angry swarm. Maricopa County Sheriff Sgt. Allen Romer finally used a utility vehicle to get close. He was "able to load Alex onto the UTV and remove him from the scene, still covered with bees, and a swarm pursuing," according to a statement from the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office.
> 
> ...


Does that happen on a daily basis - well no. But you can hardly deny that honey bees are also a threat to our health.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

FlowerPlanter said:


> The animal kingdom is about survival, playing with prey is a means to keep hunting skills tuned, ripping apart there pray is about eating...That one caribou that dies by the wolf also ensures the remainder of it's species lives on.


That is an human interpretation of why the animal "tortured" its prey before killing it (yes, I know much of my posts on animal behavior was also human interpretation).



FlowerPlanter said:


> Wasps, flies, mosquitoes, fleas, ticks threaten our health and cause us pain, it's survival.


We kill mosquitoes that aren't biting us. We hang up fly strips and put out poison to take down what we call "pests".



FlowerPlanter said:


> Shaking out your live stock leaving them for dead to make an extra buck is a whole different thing altogether.


So what is the difference between that and shaking out laying workers? From many experienced people - laying workers can be "rehabilitated" - so shaking them out is a waste.

Now what I am about to say, I am pretty sure is the truth - but is VERY unpopular.


FlowerPlanter said:


> And as I pointed out above, if this practice was made public the whole beekeeping industry would suffer. Just ask Monsanto and Bayer how much $$$ it's costing them just on the suspicion their products accidently kills bees.
> 
> I am sure no one that has posted here thus far practiced this method, at least they won't openly admit it, for good reason. But if you do and feel there is nothing wrong with it; why don't you to call your local press and invite them over for your fall honey harvest. Is it even conceivable that anyone that would invite the press? Absolutely not!!! Why if there is nothing wrong with it?


That is, partly at least, because the beekeeping community has made a profit off the *idea* that the bees are in danger.
We have a lot of what appears to be evidence from pretty knowledgeable beekeepers that wild bees were not wiped out, that they are still there. We have some information that possibly the mites were *very bad* but not *as* bad as many of the claims. "Science" claims the bees will eventually adapt to the mites - so (if you have faith in it) let them.
Yet the beekeeping community has used this to *enhance* the public *love* for bees - and has made some pretty good money off of it.

From what I see on the forum - beekeepers are by far the most dangerous "pest" to the bees. I have killed a number of hives and sounds like I am not alone.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

I honestly believe that you could invite the media over while harvesting that way and 80% of the people wouldn't even bat an eye. Most people don't like bees or any stinging insect for that matter. Spray them with insecticide or dump gas on them any chance they get. It's like the poor snake, just because it is not cute and fuzzy everyone thinks it's ok to kill them. I always feel bad for them when i see them dead on the road. It's really just a matter of perpesctive. I also think this whole bee shortage thing is way over hyped. There certainly isn't a shortage around here. I have showed two friends how to trap swarms and they were both very successful their first year doing it. To the point that they both caught more than they could handle or wanted. If you look hard enough there will always be something that someone does that you don't agree with and if they look hard enough they will find something that you do that offends them. Control what you can and don't worry about the rest. If that style of beekeeping works for that guy i still believe it's his business whether i agree with it or not is irrelevent. i don't because i have had 100% overwinter survival last few years and i sell spring nucs(my main source of bee related income) but i don't live in as harsh a climate, maybe if i did i would find out that it was a better way.


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## bubbalowe (Oct 3, 2013)

There are native pollinators so be honest, it is about the honey. Taking all the honey in the fall is better than having the bees consume it over winter and still die in the spring which is a very high probability. The practice existed for decades, especially in Canada but you could buy bees for $1.50 back then.,


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

psm1212 said:


> Godwin's law reigns. And only 19 posts in!


Dang, you beat me to it. I came in late, but happily read to see someone quote this rule of internet thumb.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

This link isn't necessarily my opinion on the subject and I don't want to turn this into a Tailgater type of thread but I enjoyed this read:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exploring-consciousness/


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## flyingron (Sep 14, 2017)

SiWolKe said:


> Even a cat uses the mouse she plays with as a teaching to her young and not as a torture on purpose.


You apparently didn't have outside cats. While my cats indeed would throw the mice for the benefit of training the kittens, they certainly will play with (or if you will torture) small animals (mice, rabbits, chipmunks) to death even in the absence of kittens (and the males will do it as much as the females).


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

I would not judge anyone's business model as long as it was legal. It might violate my worldview but that is just me. 
I think I would be more concerned about the business model if it were more widespread(or he lived near me) because those engaged in it obviously do not take care of their bees being with them only for a few months. Think of the risks that he may be creating for other beekeepers from the spread of varroa and disease such as EFB/AFB, because he obviously doesn't care.
By the way a good read on commercial migratory beekeepers "The Beekeepers Lament" by Hannah Nordhaus.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

MikeJ said:


> my main point was - animals do not *love* us. Love is a reasoning and action (not just emotion). Animals react on what we would call emotion. There is no reasoning/controls to govern it. In humans this is extremely bad and dangerous.
> A dog moping about does not mean it "misses" or "loves" you or me. To the dog they want/like something and you or me not being there means they can't have it.


Maybe your dogs don't love you, but my cats certainly love me!


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

gww said:


> What do you think happens to the pollinators that move to pollination which causes hive death. And then moves again from the polination fields and kills more bees and then some shake those bees and send them south and sell them to newbees and kill some more.


This guy comes and picks up all the leftover bees:





.


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## Greeny (Jun 27, 2016)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> This guy comes and picks up all the leftover bees:
> 
> .


That is an awesome video, and a great alternative to shaking out the bees at the end of their lucrative labor.


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## Greeny (Jun 27, 2016)

Duplicate


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks Ravenseye,
I have no doubt bees as a hive have consciousness. Visit a hive days after really bothering it, like opening it up when there is robbing pressure. Do not know if that changes my morality any.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> We kill mosquitoes that aren't biting us. We hang up fly strips and put out poison to take down what we call "pests".


Not me. Well, ok, first year to freeze wax moth. But I´m not torturing them  
But the bees are so valuable, I can´t understand they are not respected.

Yeah thanks Ravenseye.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

flyingron said:


> You apparently didn't have outside cats. While my cats indeed would throw the mice for the benefit of training the kittens, they certainly will play with (or if you will torture) small animals (mice, rabbits, chipmunks) to death even in the absence of kittens (and the males will do it as much as the females).


You forgot....
...And once the prey is has been "tortured" and dead, it is not unusual for the cat to walk away with out eating it. Sometimes they might take the head (but that is just to make it worse for you to clean up).


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

I'm in the deep South. Ship them my way.


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## Planner (Apr 3, 2016)

Couldn't be said any better.


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

MikeJ said:


> You forgot....
> ...And once the prey is has been "tortured" and dead, it is not unusual for the cat to walk away with out eating it. Sometimes they might take the head (but that is just to make it worse for you to clean up).


Our cat routinely kills mice and lizards, eats none of them but leaves them on the porch just outside the door to make sure we notice them. Maybe she's just trying to keep the skills sharp or maybe humans aren't the only species to "trophy hunt".

We'll see if that stirs the puddin'.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

We'll see if that stirs the puddin'.:

How cat like.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

So...if they buy bees every spring and dump them at the end of the season...without treating for anything....can they claim their honey is 'treatment free' ?


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

The bigger question for me is: Can they call themselves bee keepers?


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

gww said:


> jw
> Your milk cow may need a shed and a bull and if you only have one it might be cheaper to buy milk then to buy twenty acres to put her on.


Wow, that's one *big* cow!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Modem


> Wow, that's one *big* cow!


:shhhh:
Cheers
gww


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## kengineer (Jul 4, 2015)

*Christo, you will not believe the horror I just heard*

Christo, you will not believe the horror I just heard! 

I was talking to someone who calls themselves a beekeeper an they told me that they pump acid vapor into their hive to kill some of god's creatures. I want to post their name, but forgot it. How can they be allowed to keep a box of insects when they would allow acid fumes around them? 


Some people, huh? 

I guess it depends on which side of the fence you live on. 

I would recommend that you spread the word, honey is murder!!!!

Oh and by the way, some people keep bees like that. I think that a Skep was made to be torn apart in the fall and the bees were not kept over winter in cold areas.


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## Vectorjet (Feb 20, 2015)

*Re: Christo, you will not believe the horror I just heard*

Once knew a women who would not eat honey because according to her beekeepers were nothing but lazy thieves who stole from the hard working bee's. Wonder if she would eat this honey since after the beekeeper committed murder in her view, it just wouldn't be right to let the honey go to waste. The thought process that people use to justify a position is amazing to me and leads to times where right is wrong and wrong is right. Any position on anything can be rationalized as right if you just listen to the right argument. Thats why I try to stay out of other peoples business. To each there own.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Christo, you will not believe the horror I just heard*

kengineer,
there is some truth in this.
Before beekeepers in europe used the magazines they used skeps and the bee`s brood was killed while the colonies were harvested. Not the bees.
Before, they swarmed. The swarms were caught and lodged in and multiplied. New colonies were created. This working of bees prevented many pests and disease, even if not being of moral.

Today hobbyists ( and some commercial specialists) use skeps to give a more natural nesting place to bees and to propagate swarming.
These colony`s brood combs are not killed. ( I don´t know if the commercials still kill them)
Parts of honey comb are taken and pressed.

You might compare this with a bears feeding on a bee colony ( the beekeepers of older times did that on purpose, sure). The bears et honey and parts of comb and if they were lucky the colony survived and started new.

Harvesting on wild honeybee colonies is done like that. There are some native people who depend on that harvesting, paying for kid´s school or education for example. Combs are cut, brood eaten and honey sold.
These native people leave a part of the colony to build up again or next year there would be no harvest.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

vectorjet


> Once knew a women who would not eat honey because according to her beekeepers were nothing but lazy thieves who stole from the hard working bee's


We might be thieves but it doesn't seem too lazy when it takes me and my wife a couple of hours to get just three gal. I still havn't put the extractor back together and into storage and the floor and counters might still be sticky even though they have been washed three times and so hours could probly be added to the couple mentioned above.
Cheers
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

SiW.....
Though they did use sulfer to knock the bees down and too much killed them.
I had read that many skep keepers killed one third of thier hives to harvest the honey and made up for that loss with swarms.
Cheers
gww


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## Vectorjet (Feb 20, 2015)

Remember her position not mine. From my experience it is always easy to do something if you are not the one doing the task.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

larryh said:


> The bigger question for me is: Can they call themselves bee keepers?


We are wormfarmers.
Every other year we raise around 30litres of worms for fertiliser, just kicked off the first for this year the other day. Starters are gathered from our local environs.
Everyone around here knows us as wormfarmers.

Bill

psst @gww ... listening I built me a GWW-SHT (small hive technology)


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Bill
Worms were on my to-do list. One of the many things I have never made it to yet.
Cheers
gww


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

gww said:


> Bill
> Worms were on my to-do list. One of the many things I have never made it to yet.
> Cheers
> gww


They are prolific/rewarding lil buggers! We do not allow ours to be tortured on the end of a hook, eyeballed by each passing philistine looking for an easy meal. Along with seaweed emulsion the worm wee and castings are the only gentle nutruient to be used in our semicommercial greenhouse.

I trust you were tickled to see my efforts in following your simplistic BK style ???... cheers ;-)

Bill


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Bill
Though I do garden as long as my wife does all the work, I was thinking of putting the effort to growing the worms in part for the privilage of being able to torture a few of them on a fish hook.



> I trust you were tickled to see my efforts in following your simplistic BK style ???...


I see you have seen my building skills on some of my bee keeping equiptment. I am going to have to quit posting pictures. Poeple might get the right ideal about me.
Cheers
gww


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## aiannar974 (Mar 29, 2017)

I am new to bee keeping and want only a few hives. I have no intention of not keeping them for as many years as possible. That is part of the challenge. That being said, if all I ever have is 4 hive weather they over winter or not does not save the bees. Packages are always available and I will never add more than 4. I will only help the bees and t pollination by 4 hives.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@aiannar974

log that.
And read it again to your G'kids during "this is a worker bee this is a drone bee" field lesson ;-)))

Bill


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

[content withdrawn in the spirit of essence proving a flyby collision]


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

I've heard it said, civility is dead.... So it appears true, especially when/if we don;t have to look each other in the eye  

Substance, content and meaningful debate don't matter as long as a self righteous poke is delivered. ?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Geez, "He started it" doesn't work in your house does it.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

We veered early in this thread and now we've veered far. It could go to Tailgater I suppose. Let's be careful please.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

{dropped}


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

drummerboy said:


> ...and for the life of me, I don't understand it. Not when picking up/moving hives can be done after dark when all bees are home.
> 
> I suppose we can Chalk it up to our collective belief in Human Self Importance, which allows for the proliferation of many other nonsensical behaviors that we regularly perform without much thought of the future consequences :scratch:.
> 
> "To be be a friend of the Earth, we must be an enemy of the people." - TC Boyle


It seems to me a waste. Especially if there is some good DNA in some of those queens. 
I know it is hard to overwinter, has to be harder up north. But I manage to feed and medicate my bees and usually they come through ok. And I do drive an old truck.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

jooky said:


> ya if it bothers you. buy his bees, then sell them back to him in the spring


I like this. PERFECT. I'm picking up colonies with or without queens to boost my fall harvest numbers as September was dry, and to increase my overwinter hive size so they don't freeze in our snap cold. I wouldn't think he'd want a whole lot of money for them, you have a bigger cluster and better survival. Yes you have a sugar bill but make up for it in bee sales. 

(love the Godwin's law reference)


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@Gypsi

DB's sentiments aside it is a simple cost/profit equation, no different to buying seed for Spring veges... there is no DNA link.
That practice would not survive in Australia...and not just because of climate difference "Down Under", I can however understand the trade
in that marketplace and would not be quick to judge with a black hat on.
IF I followed a deity I might be bent to say some words for those souls, come the day their sales fall over and they starve, financially.

BTW... I'll betcha my truck is older AND bigger - 1997 8tonne single bogey Hino (Toyota).. heh heh )))

Bill


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

gww said:


> SiW.....
> Though they did use sulfer to knock the bees down and too much killed them.
> I had read that many skep keepers killed one third of thier hives to harvest the honey and made up for that loss with swarms.
> Cheers
> gww


gww, with due respect:
don´t believe everything you read.
Here is a video:

https://av.tib.eu/media/9327

They kill the brood, save the bees, combine the weak and sell colonies. Then they feed for overwintering.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

>>"To be be a friend of the Earth, we must be an enemy of the people." - TC Boyle

That tells me a lot about that movement.
Obviously I am right about who they worship. Sounds like a mangled reuse of
You adulterers and adulteresses, know you not that the friendship of the world is hostility with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. - James 4:4


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

"That tells me a lot about that movement"

Steady Mike,,, hold the papyrus onslaught and blest water downpour, the line is "green speak" and dare I say likely most learn(ed) g0d fearing folks.
Treat it aa does I your sig line, gap filler... heh


Bill
-- 
note for pedants - the above is Humour!


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

eltalia said:


> @Gypsi
> 
> 
> BTW... I'll betcha my truck is older AND bigger - 1997 8tonne single bogey Hino (Toyota).. heh heh )))
> ...


Mine is a 1975 Chevy Silverado. 5000 pounds you don't want to bump into


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

SiW....
Page 37.
http://www.users.callnetuk.com/~heaf/beekeeping_for_all.pdf

I have also seen it in several other places.

However. That was a very nice and imforative vidio. I like those same peoples vidio of when it is swarm season and they set in front of the hives and as the hives start to swarm, they put a mesh bag in front of the entrance and catch the swarms. I also like the one where they turn the hive up side down and inspect and cut out swarm cells. Those guys had figured out how to keep bees very well using what they were using.
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

gww,
and today they would have no mite losses.....


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@ALL

yeh, you too @gww, ya earworm.. heh heh

https://av.tib.eu/media/9327
"They kill the brood , save the bees , combine the weak and sell colonies . Then they feed for overwintering ."

Firstly... what a brilliant insight into farming that video is! 
I am on very poor bandwidth and at 02:00 hrs I was spellbound by the vision which took > 1hour in real time to watch.
I am pretty much tempted to gather my brother - he knows Germany well, an' German - to go witness the work in real time next year. 
Having to watch the whole video to figure, from a beekeepers point of view, what was happening (and why) at each stage I am inclined to think (for others) the vision with English explanation - not translation - should go into a new thread. 
That alone asks much of someone, beyond explaining the simple method of removing bees from the "skegs"(word?) over the smoking pit, yet would enhance the general trend of newbie posts in this forum.
LOVE the hats!! 
Check out the old furt taking a break for a smoke! That alone should have beesuit patrons having a second think!!
There does exist many many lessons for the entrant beekeeper in that footage, taking note of just how amicable those bees are. Assuming these are variants of Caucasian lines, and so prolific brood busybodies, usually very defensive. The video tells us these guys are more complacent than my quietest Italians!
And, man yer gotta luuuurve that smoker... I'll have one of them, tamorra!


Bill


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

SiWolKe said:


> gww,
> and today they would have no mite losses.....


2 things about that kill the brood, save the bees, yes, mites in winter in brood are gonna be a problem that feeding brood to chickens would solve. . 

Secondly I lost my favorite hive when they had 4 deep frames of brood and an early very hard freeze came and I didn't have the sticky under the sbb, cold losses were enough to dwindle them during winter, they starved under a box of honey, too small to move up. 

I would now consider destroying brood, but saving the bees on it, if I saw that freeze coming today. Hive was large enough if able to go into cluster and not have to protect that much brood. I've also gotten better at getting sticky boards in before december. If I don't have time to open the hive and check for brood I can be sure they have some protection from cold.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@Gypsi

"Mine is a 1975 Chevy Silverado . 5000 pounds you don' t want to bump into"

Bump..?.. at not quite 2.5 tonnes yer rust lump a mere hump with me Hino coming down on yer ..heh )))
I like the naming though, "Siverado", flash, like ... makes "Hino" sound like a prehistoric hip joint option... 

Bill


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Bill
We could start a thread where newbees like me that don't understand german could try and explain why they did each thing in the vidio and then have SiWolke translate in german and grade us.
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I was criticized for my language abilities but hope you guys will forgive me, since it´s not my native language and I haven´t had any real exercise since leaving school in 1983.

@eltalia
the video is from 1978 but still there are some beekeepers working like that. Be welcome in germany.
Such pipes are in use until now, my mentor uses one as you can see on a pict in my thread.
I think the guys in the video are very cool, because I know from old people that the old local bee race, the black bee, was very defensiv. They rather put up with some stinging, respecting the bees for what they are.

@gypsi
Brood culling is an IPM management. When to do this depends on your climate and it must be done before winter breeding. 
If you can´t take part in keeping your bees alive because circumstances will not allow this it could be away keeping bees without chemical contaminations.
I myself have in my care a swarm we made in spring using a bait comb, the swarm was made artificially ( 4.5 kg) and the first capped brood comb was culled.
Now they go into winter as one of my strongest with only a small number of mites dropping, no virus and they gave me a good honey harvest as surplus. No feeding necessary.

ohh gww what a nice idea! You post faster than me!

Permaculture? I´m a fan and just starting. 

To all: if you need some explanations in english, tell me. I had posted a skep video and some comment in the history forum but can´t find it.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

SiW....


> I was criticized for my language abilities but hope you guys will forgive me, since it´s not my native language and I haven´t had any real exercise since leaving school in 1983.


Not from me were you criticized and my language abilities might not be any better then yours but I missed it if somebody else criticized but either way, you talk better in english then I can in german or probly english.
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

gww,
since I already told I love your speech people might think i learned the language from you..
queenly


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

SiWolKe: Your English is fine, much better that my German (I know maybe 5 words in German).

On the OP topic:
Other day I watched as the worker bees were forcing drones out of the hive. I though, how cruel. Tossed out to *starve* like yesterday's garbage. :waiting:

I guess for the OP's instance - "What goes around, comes around" :lookout:


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@gww
I'll knock together my take on what the video depicts and post that in the History forum as SW suggests. Give me a day or so.

@SiWolKe
I did wonder about the dress format, 1978 mode makes sense.
And thanks for confirming the bee genetics, indeed those people have my respect for due diligence. So calm you would swear it was just a pleasant day in the apiary!

Bill


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

SiWolKe said:


> I had posted a skep video and some comment in the history forum but can´t find it.


Here tis ...
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?336527-Building-a-skep


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

MikeJ said:


> On the OP topic:
> Other day I watched as the worker bees were forcing drones out of the hive. I though, how cruel. Tossed out to *starve* like yesterday's garbage.


Wow, MikeJ, you do understand the concept of a hive, don't you? And for anyone else also, the INDIVIDUAL bee is of little consequense. It is the collective effort of all the bees that matters. Drones are tossed out on their butts because their role has been fulfilled and they are no longer of any use to the hive. Keeping a non productive member of the hive when resources are scarce is detrimental to the survival of the hive as a whole. They accept this. What the guy in Chicago is doing is not the same as many of the examples used to justify his actions. This is not culling, or any attempt at hive management, successful or otherwise. It is a wasteful practice driven by greed and a failure to exercise the stewardship demanded of us when we were given dominion over all the creatures of the earth. As beekeepers, we keep bees. We do not throw them away when they no longer serve our purpose.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Rader
You always earn my respect with your searching ability and helpfulness.
gww


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> Wow, MikeJ, you do understand the concept of a hive, don't you? And for anyone else also, the INDIVIDUAL bee is of little consequense.(sic)


ummm.. I read Mike as having Tongue firmly wedged in Cheek, an attempt to lighten the thread up. In much the sane way I tried but withdrew the work 
just in case something like this happened, for some.

And can I just say the INDIVIDUAL bee beating his wings on the scrotum, stinger well deployed, is most definitely of major consequence!!

.... jes sayin' like )

Bill


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

gww said:


> Rader
> You always earn my respect with your searching ability and helpfulness.
> gww


And mine too.
Here the video in english in the skep thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?336527-Building-a-skep


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## Rex Piscator (Oct 12, 2010)

I don't *any *apply chemicals to my few colonies and they all pretty much perish each year; I do collect the surplus honey from these colonies. What is the difference? I know these colonies will most likely all perish. I replace them with packages and swarm captures to continue the paradigm each year. Certainly I do wish the colonies would survive, but they simply don't. I accept the facts as they are presented...and try not to anthropomorphize the process.

Some might consider applying harsh chemicals to colonies as a type of torture or abuse; just to keep them alive to generate more surplus...many points of view on this planet. Each individual makes the choice which is best and 'right'.


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## Rex Piscator (Oct 12, 2010)

Strange 'exit site' with Thread 'posting'?? And then a double post. Sorry everyone.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Rex Piscator said:


> I don't *any *apply chemicals to my few colonies and they all pretty much perish each year; I do collect the surplus honey from these colonies. What is the difference? I know these colonies will most likely all perish. I replace them with packages and swarm captures to continue the paradigm each year. Certainly I do wish the colonies would survive, but they simply don't. I accept the facts as they are presented...and try not to anthropomorphize the process.
> Some might consider applying harsh chemicals to colonies as a type of torture or abuse; just to keep them alive to generate more surplus...many points of view on this planet. Each individual makes the choice which is best and 'right'.





> What is the difference?


It´s bond and not letting them die on purpose.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

But if all of them die, every year, is it bond, is there a purpose?


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

My post was partly joking and partly serious....
The "Hive"/"Organism" is obvious - but at the same time it is obvious that each bee must then matter since they are the "cells" that make up that organism.

Generally things do come around in a "natural" setting. Animals that attack and kill prey, tend to get killed and eaten themselves.

If the OP had simply said they found the practice personally disgusting I doubt many would have opposed that. Opinions are opinion.... problem was when it became a matter of ethics and morality.

Ethics and morality is such situations have nothing to do with the death of the insects but rather the person's mental attitude for such actions. (this particular situation) If it is done in an uncontrolled rage/hate/wanting to cause loss/pain then yes it crossed into unmoral (why because they lost control of themselves and allowed themselves to act without a right/wrong control). But in what is presented by the OP is a simple business model that is not performed with any desire to enjoy harming the bugs. Simply a matter of - they did what they were there for and now is time to be done with them.... I personally think he could have ended their lives fast to prevent any "suffering" (and maybe he does but didn't mention it).


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

MikeJ said:


> My post was partly joking and partly serious...


Sorry Mike, I got caught up in the heat of the moment. Of course it was said tongue in cheek and I missed it.


SiWolKe got it right about purpose. We don't want our hives to die, but they do. Sometimes it is our own inexperience, careless actions, or just bad luck. Goes to intent, not final outcome.
I say this reflecting on the staple my son left in a board I ran through my planer. In that case, final outcome is everything.:scratch:


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

So wait, killing the bees to harvest is wrong but killing the brood (on purpose) as an ipm method is ok???????? Why not just worry about our own bees and let this guy keep his as HE sees fit?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> But if all of them die, every year, is it bond, is there a purpose?


Not to me, therefore the IPM. But I accept this more than shaking the bees out on purpose. IMHO.



> killing the bees to harvest is wrong but killing the brood (on purpose) as an ipm method is ok????????


I don´t know if you mean me but I will answer:
No. It´s just as immoral to me. Still I compare with chemical treatments and the disadvantages of those. Makes no difference to me. At least the queen is not jeopardized. 
Personally I would like to do bond and to hope the population stabilizes. This if I would know to have not 100% loss. Could be with some years of selection and distributing drones, giving away survivor queens will do it.
Maybe not.

Live and let live is my motto. But nobody can take away my opinions. In my life I learned not to be a missionary and accept others as they are, even if it does not sound like this sometimes in my posts.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Rex Piscator said:


> I don't *any *apply chemicals to my few colonies and they all pretty much perish each year; I do collect the surplus honey from these colonies. What is the difference? I know these colonies will most likely all perish. I replace them with packages and swarm captures to continue the paradigm each year. Certainly I do wish the colonies would survive, but they simply don't. I accept the facts as they are presented...and try not to anthropomorphize the process.
> 
> Some might consider applying harsh chemicals to colonies as a type of torture or abuse; just to keep them alive to generate more surplus...many points of view on this planet. Each individual makes the choice which is best and 'right'.


If you're replacing your bees with packages that were given chemicals right before you bought them, what's the difference in treating them yourself? Treated bees need treatments to survive or they die, every time. If you want to break this trend you need to do something different. A different source for queens/bees. VHS and TF queens; For Sale forum. Some packages also come with VHS queens. If your losing all your bees every year sounds like it's worth a try. 



mcon672 said:


> So wait, killing the bees to harvest is wrong but killing the brood (on purpose) as an ipm method is ok???????? Why not just worry about our own bees and let this guy keep his as HE sees fit?


No one is stopping them from killing their bees. They can do what they want. I would not purchase anything from a business that had business practices like that.

No respect for their bees, do you think they respect their customers? Keep their honey in food grade condition? Protect it from chemicals, pesticides... Would you think their honey is pure and not been adulterated with HFCS or something else?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

FlowerPlanter said:


> No respect for their bees, do you think they respect their customers? Keep their honey in food grade condition? Protect it from chemicals, pesticides... Would you think their honey is pure and not been adulterated with HFCS or something else?


Very good argument.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

FlowerPlanter said:


> ....
> No respect for their bees, do you think they respect their customers? Keep their honey in food grade condition? Protect it from chemicals, pesticides... Would you think their honey is pure and not been adulterated with HFCS or something else?


:scratch:

That reminds me of a local paper. They used to have an animal control column in which the local animal control officer wrote a weekly clip. I used to skim it once in a while. Apparently he took the job quite seriously - one article he wrote about "see something- say something", if you see someone kick a dog - report it, because (he went on) if they will hit or kick a dog WHAT will they do to a human..... 

I see no reason to link how one treats an insect (or animal) with how they treat humans. It makes no logic. If someone swat a fly, they are one the road to mass murderer. If they kick a dog, they are not obviously a wife beater.
That is what happens when feelings are allowed to take the lead, rather than thinking.

Because someone dumps their bees they disrespect, cheat, and endanger the health of their customers?! 
I really don't think so.


*Attention:*
The previous comments were not intended to endorse kicking pets - or swatting flies. :gh:


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Flowerplanter


> No respect for their bees, do you think they respect their customers? Keep their honey in food grade condition? Protect it from chemicals, pesticides... Would you think their honey is pure and not been adulterated with HFCS or something else?


Common sense says to me that there is more risk of a person feeding and giving cheimicals that is trying to keep his bees alive more then one that is just using bees to capture a flow and convert it to honey. There are a whole bunch of bee keepers that can not protect their hives from pesticides if they are near towns of crop land.

I understand that some one may think that they get more honey if they feed but when it comes to trust and respect, I might trust the guy that is only after the honey and not taking care of the bees would not have near the incentive to feed and treat. In the end it would always come down to wether you believe or not what someone tells you. My instinct leads me to believe if a guy had drawn comb and can put a package in a hive and shake them out at the end of the year is not going to go to all the extra effort to feed and pore chemicals Cause feeding is hard work. So in the end it is all just a feeling that one or the other would do these things that are being insinuated. I can see people seeing that they can make a profit in harsher areas and that it might make sense to do so.

I hear all the time that people say that southern queens don't do as well up north. I don't make a claim that that is true but if I believed it and their were tons of cheap packages that could be had that it would make no sense in trying to get to live over winter, I don't see where it is wrong to get the pollination and honey that they still could provide during the warm part of my season and it might be dumb to pore a bunch of resources into something that is not made to do what you want it to do. You can spend those resources and then the southern bees die any way or get your polination and not spend the resources that give no return.

In the end, if a study was done that said 10 percent of the hives die when being moved for any reason to differrent areas like for polination contracts then how is this so much differrent?

Is this practice really that much worse then other ways we are using the bees that nobody wants to connect the dots to? There is really no differance.
Cheers
gww


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

You know I would be willing to save those poor bees left behind when the pollinator's truck pulled away if I only knew when and where. No, don't praise me too much, it's just the kind of guy I am.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

MikeJ said:


> I see no reason to link how one treats an insect (or animal) with how they treat humans. It makes no logic. If someone swat a fly, they are one the road to mass murderer. If they kick a dog, they are not obviously a wife beater.
> That is what happens when feelings are allowed to take the lead, rather than thinking.
> 
> Because someone dumps their bees they disrespect, cheat, and endanger the health of their customers?!
> I really don't think so.


It´s about empathy. We are not grateful anymore of nature`s gifts, we are only interested in profits. I can understand this if it´s necessary for surviving but not if it´s just indifference.
Myself, I´m not feeling joy in purchasing from an indifferent person.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I know this is not america but it was the fastest thing I could find.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3896/IBRA.1.53.1.03
Migratory lost 30 something percent of hives (not bees) compared to stationary that lost 17 percent. There is more out there. So, what is the differrance when using bees knowing we are killing them just so we can get what we want. Just how immoral are these pratices and how can we say this practice is ok but the person this thread was started on is immoral? Isn't keeping bees to get what we want even if it kills them the same beings we know it does kill them?

We want what we want and so who gets to be the one that says the guy that wants the pollination dollar is right but the guy who wants the honey dollar is wrong even though the end result to the bees is exactly the same. I am not talking about bees that are left behind that might beg thier way into a hive or be caught by some one, I am talking about knowingly killing bee hives to get what we want. Can it be seen or do we hide under a rock and pretend it is differrent and if it is not differrent, do we point fingers or do we accept that it is ok. I am going to accept that it is ok. 
Cheers
gww
Ps SiW... I get a lot of joy out of my bees and do try and keep them alive and do like to tell storys around a campfire and even when the bees sting me I get something from it even if just another story. I do understand getting paid for your labor if that is why you keep bees though.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Biggest question is, how are we going to determine morality and/or ethics here? Current feelings? majority rules? a particular book? loudest voice?


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## bubbalowe (Oct 3, 2013)

Beef and chicken are raised then slaughtered for food, what makes insects different? I'll bet a lot of those judging the process of taking all the honey at Fall don't have a problem enjoying a good steak now and again......


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

DanielD said:


> Biggest question is, how are we going to determine morality and/or ethics here? Current feelings? majority rules? a particular book? loudest voice?


Forums are about reading, Daniel, not the posting to. 
The variants in outlook expressed may just give readers closer insight as to
why things are the way they are or could be.
Not saying for a nanosecond change would occur from discussion tho' the possibility does exist, for some.

Bill


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

bubbalowe said:


> Beef and chicken are raised then slaughtered for food, what makes insects different? I'll bet a lot of those judging the process of taking all the honey at Fall don't have a problem enjoying a good steak now and again......


If he was eating the bees, your argument might make sense. He just doesn't want to be bothered with the care and maintenance of his hives. 

I would liken it more to someone who loves puppies, but kills them when they become adult dogs, and then goes out and buys another puppy.

And no, I do not view my bees as pets in any way shape or form. They are livestock.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

SiWolKe said:


> It´s about empathy.


I do not understand the "empathy" (i.e. being able to relate to the other's feelings) - bees have no "feelings", they have reactions (something the God gave us to separate us from them - the ability have control over reaction).



SiWolKe said:


> We are not grateful anymore of nature`s gifts, we are only interested in profits.


I agree - we (as human society) have become ungrateful to God for all the gifts and mercies He provided. But that is to be expected when 2 generations now have been taught (from 4yrs old) that God does not exist, we are all just "evolved" animals. (I say 2 generations only because when it first began there was at least *some* debate allowed - now there really isn't any allowed. The reinforcement of this is constant - and growing)
Why should people be grateful, or even compassionate, if we are all mere higher animals. There is no reason to be grateful - it all "just happened". It is the inevitable results of the actions and attitudes decided on. Just as people can coldly calculate when an aged person should have their life end - or even decide one should not be allowed to exist because of some physical "problem".



SiWolKe said:


> I can understand this if it´s necessary for surviving but not if it´s just indifference.
> Myself, I´m not feeling joy in purchasing from an indifferent person.


Perfectly understandable. I think the big problem between the two sides is making it a moral question. From what the OP said, the BK is not doing it out of spite or evil intentions - this is simply how he makes, at least part of, his living.




gww said:


> ...
> Migratory lost 30 something percent of hives (not bees) compared to stationary that lost 17 percent....
> So, what is the differrance when using bees knowing we are killing them just so we can get what we want.
> ...
> ...


Exactly. The only difference is in feelings (of the one seeing it). Almost no one sees all the dead bees when the migratory bk moves on (or when he replaces a dead hive).... but for the honey making bk (apparently) it is much more noticeable.

I will admit, I think the bees are cute (when they aren't out to kill me). I fish drowning bees out of water buckets and have been known to bring cold bees in with me to get warm so they can make it home.... difference is I *realize* this is all in *my* head. The bee has no understanding of these things and most definitely is not grateful.
Just because I am a "softy" doesn't make me more moral - or less so if I am realistic about the fact that those bees will probably die before they would make it home.

I would say (something that I probably can not express well) - To have a mindset that is sympathetic of the animals/insects we have charge over is an important part of the greater love for doing what is Good in obeying God. I probably am not expressing it well. I think when we understand our position relative to The Father's and Lord Jesus' we take a more humble loving attitude towards our livestock (pets or whatever... even children [though I do not want anyone to think I am likening the two] - since we are basically gods to them (which was something God made so - and I think partly for that purpose).



DanielD said:


> Biggest question is, how are we going to determine morality and/or ethics here? Current feelings? majority rules? a particular book? loudest voice?


Yes, The Book (i.e. what we call The Bible).
As it is now (today's society) it is "and every man did what was right in his own eyes". Some will say that is the way it should be - but they fail to learn the lessons of where that takes them.
God's patience is not unlimited towards a society that mocks Him and loves everything He hates. There are results for societal actions.

:lookout:


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

When I pull a drowning bee out of the bird bath, I like to think they are thanking me by NOT stinging me.:gh:

Being a softy does not make you more moral, but it does make you more human/humane.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Wow! That guy calls himself a beekeeper?

Well he's not. We call that person a honey producers here in Ohio. As Ohio largest honey producer, I get it. To me he is a smart business person. 

I buy packages every year and fill my hives. Then produce bees for sale that supplies many hobbies. Then I use the bees to produce me the most honey possible to sell to the beekeeper to keep there markets going. Then at the end of the season (last week) I shake them out and sell the bees to someone else to deal with. Then I take the next five months to get over not having bees by hunting, fishing and doing more fishing. Honey producers have it harder the beekeepers.

This year was a short crop at a 124 pound avg. 124 lbs at $2.50-2.75 a lb $310-340 for my gross honey sales per hive this year. On top of bees sale per hive was another $95. 

Yep, not a beekeeper. I'm a honey producer. 

In any size business you have to do what you have to, to make your business work. 

I hear beekeepers that say they wouldn't buy off me because of the way I produce. That is there choice. But many of the beekeeper that have found a way to sell chemical free honey at $8-10 a lb, which is why I sell all my honey to the beekeeper. Good beekeepers knows what it take to produce good chemical free honey. Then to be able to buy that honey at a wholesale price. Sounds like a win/win for beekeeper/honey producer.:thumbsup:


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I have no qualms about your practices because of the one sentence in which you said you sell the bees. I am pretty sure the entire argument rests on the idea that the other honey farmer purposefully kills his bees at the end of the season.

I find that good business and ethical behavior are more often than not mutually exclusive.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

The Honey Householder said:


> Wow! That guy calls himself a beekeeper?........................................


Right on Ron! and well said.
I was wondering when you were going to see this thread.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

The Honey Householder said:


> ...
> Well he's not. We call that person a honey producers here in Ohio. As Ohio largest honey producer, I get it. To me he is a smart business person.
> ....
> This year was a short crop at a 124 pound avg. 124 lbs at $2.50-2.75 a lb $310-340 for my gross honey sales per hive this year. On top of bees sale per hive was another $95.
> ...


I wondered if you might jump in.
Sorry - I call it successful Treatment Free beekeeping


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jw


> If he was eating the bees, your argument might make sense. He just doesn't want to be bothered with the care and maintenance of his hives.


Just so you know, I think you try to be a helpful guy and have seen that in some threads. However, this bantering is kind of fun and so here goes.

He is in effect eating the bees when he eats the honey. Though some would die even if the bees kept the honey some would probly have a chance at living. So you could look at it like you would when you butcher a chicken. You don't eat the feathers and the guts. I guess you could consider the honey producer as throwing away the guts. Now a big time operator would find a market for those feathers and guts but the little guy just throws them away cause that makes sense. The pillow stuffers and fertilize makers are not going to be interested in messing with just two chickens or twenty chickens worth of feathers and guts.

You say the guy selling his bees is ok with you in the last thread even though by selling them, they probly have to be moved south to the market and so the same stresses on them are going to kill a lot of hives and when he buys more, if they come from south which is about the only place to get bees early enough for him to buy then the bees are stressed by being moved again. So it is ok to kill more then you have to but not ok to kill them all.

People are funny (me included) My wife likes to fry fish that have been scaled so the skin is on them. She is not afraid of work but she makes me cut thier heads off before she will touch them. Me on the other hand will use an electric knife a falay them while they are still alive. 

If a chicken gets sick to where you can see it, nine times out of ten, that chicken is already dead. Not many people take a $5 dollar chicken to a fourty dollar vet. No my wife will catch them and feed them all kinds of stuff including alka selzer and yogart and honey and viniger, antibiotics. She has saved about two chickens out of all the chickens she has tried to save. When the writing is on the wall and she wants them to stop sufferring, she starts presuring me to put them out of thier mizery. Now I am just cruel enough to be willing to let nature takes its course on the od chance that the chicken some how comes out of it and am also a bit of a coward and just don't enjoy cutting their heads off even for a good cause of putting them out of thier missery (see I spelled this two differrent ways cause I am illiterate).

I guess the point is that faced with the same situations that everyone will have their strengths and weaknesses.

So If the pollinators knowingly kills more hives just to be able to pollinate then we could all boycott almonds and hope the demand goes away or we could be proud of the guy who has such extra pressure on him to keep enough bees alive to be able to perform such a valuable sevice for every one.

The guys that have crops and gardens probly like the free polination that this threads beekeeper provide to them for free.

Jw I enjoy hearing your answers and like some one else said, even if we don't agree, it is out there for people who may not have thought about how food is produced to read.
Cheers
gww


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ur-per-hive-honey-yield&p=1573778#post1573778


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I always love a good heated discussion and this thread has provided some serious entertainment. For the most part, we all have to agree that we all have different view points on this matter and there is no real right or wrong. Might as well be discussing politics or gun control, both big no no's on a forum like this. 
Many have posted their personal views, some for, some against, and some that I'm not sure understand the issue. I believe that with very few exceptions, everyone has valid imput and I try to always remain open minded (except when it comes to guns and politics). 
I have raised chickens, have a wife who thinks meat should come from a store wrapped in plastic, and have had to put down animals that were suffering. I live in a state that produces a LOT of chickens commercially and know what they really do with the feathers and guts. Tysons, Perdue, and Wampler were all customers of mine and I have been to many of their processing plants. Yuck.
Anyhow, I try to be a conscientious contributor and am aways willing to help when I can and learn when I need to.

Enough about me, SAVE THE BEES! Just kidding.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> When I pull a drowning bee out of the bird bath, I like to think they are thanking me by NOT stinging me.:gh:
> 
> Being a softy does not make you more moral, but it does make you more human/humane.


:thumbsup:


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Had a pork chop last night, I have no moral ground from which to judge. 
On a business basis it seems like a wasteful habit, not the basic model, but the non use of the byproduct. But then there is only a basic outline of the plan, my objections may well be based on my speculation as I fill in the blanks. The type of speculation I object to on moral grounds. So what am I doing on the internet?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

MikeJ said:


> :scratch:
> 
> I see no reason to link how one treats an insect (or animal) with how they treat humans. It makes no logic. If someone swat a fly, they are one the road to mass murderer. If they kick a dog, they are not obviously a wife beater.
> That is what happens when feelings are allowed to take the lead, rather than thinking.
> ...


OH but it does in so many ways, have you ever seen the news where they rescue abused animals from a residence or seen it in person; these people (every one of them) are trailer trash times ten. If you abuse your pets you are a low life; can't keep a job, can't pay the bills, don't shower, abusive, yard and house look like trash... You will never find a nice family with kids in the honor role abusing their pets.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Flowerplanter


> OH but it does in so many ways, have you ever seen the news where they rescue abused animals from a residence or seen it in person; these people (every one of them) are trailer trash times ten. If you abuse your pets you are a low life; can't keep a job, can't pay the bills, don't shower, abusive, yard and house look like trash... You will never find a nice family with kids in the honor role abusing their pets.


Thats screwed up man. Nothing could be further from the truth. I did bad in school, cussed, drank, smoked and kicked my dog when he ran away from me and the only way my kids could rebel was to be good. I have a doctor and a teacher and one, not one time, from grade school through high school got lower then an A and the other one got maby three Bs in all that time. I tryed my very best to get them to rebel against establishments but they were good anyway. I might have found the perfect parenting tool, just do everything bad and the only way a kid can rebel is to be good. It might also be that my wife told my kids everyday that they needed to do well so they did not have to end up with someone like me.

You have a one shoe fits all out look when the truth would be more that we all have some good and some bad traits. 

You can not tell by how fancy a house is or what kind of a car someone drives what is really in their minds.

One thing comes clear is your feeling that you should not take all the honey and shake out bees. Some of your other views have become clear also and things seem to be painted black and white with a pretty wide brush.
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

FlowerPlanter said:


> OH but it does in so many ways, have you ever seen the news where they rescue abused animals from a residence or seen it in person; these people (every one of them) are trailer trash times ten. If you abuse your pets you are a low life; can't keep a job, can't pay the bills, don't shower, abusive, yard and house look like trash... You will never find a nice family with kids in the honor role abusing their pets.


I was shocked to see people leaving behind their dogs and cats when they had to leave their home because of Irma.
It worked for them.
Or maybe there was no place in the car because of the TV set.
Or maybe the wanted the dogs to chase away robbers.
Well my animals, bees included, would be the first I took away.

FP these words you posted are too harsh. To loose a job could happen to anyone. When I worked as a dog trainer the "trash" loved their pets the most.
The millionaires loved mostly themselves. I met all kinds of people.
I met the animal hoarders as they are called, whose animals died starving. They did not realize this. they had them because they loved them.

It´s hard for me to accept gwws or other posters opinions to be tolerant to what works for some people but I will try. I like to know about people.
And I hope they will accept me just the same.

Do not take away others dignity. 
But I sincerely hope most people will stay sensitive not to harm anyone or anything, even insects, so such an event as the Las Vegas shooting for example will not happen again.
Even if it works for the shooter.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Poeple are selfish enough to believe that people come first but that may not add up to ill will but more to how to prioritize how to handle things that are bad and make the best of bad that can be made.

When I was young and really before it was wide spread to nuter all pets and give rabie shots if you lived out in the country. If somebody dumped a cat or one showed up and maby to keep it from starving if you had the extra, you might put out a bowl for it every once in a while but your were not necessarily going to claim it or take responcibility for it. It was a sorta live and let live type of thing. The cat might hide in your barn and have kittens and it was not a planned thing but more just the kind of stuff that happens.

However.
True story. When I was young and my grandma had a couple of cats that were haggerons that were not purchased or brought home but were there. Well, one day a fox came out in mid day light while people were around and drank out of the water bowl. Now a fox does not behave like that and the logical conclusion is that it has some kind of sickness with rabies being the first thing that might come to mind. Or action was to kill all of those cats rather then take a chance that they would still be safe to have around. Now we did not kill the pigs that were in a pen because of the finacial burden but the free roaming cats had to go. Was it the right decision? Well, I guess that could be debated but it was the safest route over all except for the cats that had to go.

The evil of something is subjective. If a person finds injoyment in hurting things with no real purpose but the enjoyment of hurting or even like I mentioned earlier of getting revenge against a animal, there can be no sense made of those type of actions but it is much less clear when it comes down to using animals or bugs as a tool. We could let those animals live on there own and let what happens happen but we have decided it is good to use those animals that have traits that do make them good tools and so it is much muddier then the fastest and best do well and the sick die. We have decided prioitize human needs and even situational needs of the big picture (we don't want sick foxes or cats that can be replaced jeopardizing every thing else) like polinization and honey producing is more important then just letting bees be bees. Now we don't just hate bees and find enjoyment it killing them but we do want what we want and this could include killing them if they moved into you house and before they fill it with honey that leaks through your wall or stings your grand kid. Now reconizing these things and acting on them is not the same as trying to wipe out bees from earth cause we don't like them. We also did like the cats fine enough untill we became scared of them.

Unless people are really in the food production industery, most really do not have to think about right and wrong, they only have to worry if what is on super sale will still be there or if they will have to get a raincheck and come back to the super market later.

I do say this knowing that they have made dog fighting and **** fighting illeagle and that most circus acts no longer have eliphants. I don't even go so far as to say stoping those things was a bad thing. I just say that it is not so easy to look at something and say it is bad but yet wanting to still be able to buy viel cause it is tender. 

I am really wanting to find a better way to kill mice in a way that I don't poisen my pets and where I don't have to check individual traps that the mice get too smart to get into after a bit. When I shine the light in the chicken coup, I can see tons of them running off. I have trapped in my work garages and caught lots but nowhere near enough. I have prioritized my chickens and the feed I give them over the mice. I do not want to kill these mice out of enjoyment but would enjoy getting rid of them out of selfishness. I wonder if the guy that raises mice to feed his snake thinks that I am wasting these mice? Or the guy that studies disiese? I bet they are paying for thier mice. Ok, I know that was stupid and a little baiting but this stuff is not as clear cut as it may look on the surface. 

I do believe there is a line, like it is nicer if the person who has a swarm in his yard calls a beekeeper rather then buys a can of raid. 
I don't say I know where the line is but I am willing to give quite a lot of latitude on people adressing thier situation with the knowlage they have at the time. 

I myself am really kind of a softy and that is why I still have 7+ year old chickens when that really makes no sence but I do look up to the guy that has a good egg buiness and culls to keep it good and does not have to work for some one else because he runs it like a buisness. We are not all made for the same thing.
Cheers
gww


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

We have to kill to survive, killing pests that threaten us with disease, destroying our food sources, cause harm to us or just to eat... 
Selling or giving away your bees to someone that will care for them feed them, given them every opportunity to survive is one thing. Bees are livestock you have a responsibility to for them. But shaking them out to harvest every last drop knowing there is no way they can survive is another. 


"Acts of cruelty to animals are not mere indications of a minor personality flaw in the abuser; they are symptomatic of a deep mental disturbance. Research in psychology and criminology shows that people who commit acts of cruelty to animals don’t stop there"

https://www.peta.org/issues/compani...eets/animal-abuse-human-abuse-partners-crime/

http://www.wihumane.org/advocacy/laws/animal-abuse-violence


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

We only know he does not overwinter bees, beyond that be it; ignorance ;husbandry; resale to another or gleeful enjoyment of destruction, is just speculation liberally infused with preconception.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

gww,
thanks. 
To me your post is exceptional. You have my respect.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

So, I have a question .....

If you shake out your bees at the end of the season, as theHoneyHouseholder does, how do you transfer them to someone else to make up colonies with?

As a practical matter, how are they physically transferred? Are they shaken out on to someones else's frames, then boxed and moved away. Shaken into bulk cages? Moved in their summer boxes to another location, shaken out there, with the summer boxes returned? Sold in their boxes?

I just can't figure out how the process works. (Note this question is not about how to shake bees out onto the ground with the intention of abandoning them.)

Nancy


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Animal abuse is a symptom of psychopathy, some degree of lack of normal empathy. Such people are also at risk of abusing humans.

Not sure about insect abuse. Upbringing has to do with it, and some people genuinely see insects as "bugs", of no consequence or feelings and have no problem killing them or inflicting pain on them, but the person may otherwise be completely normal, and would not abuse an animal.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

This is getting ridiculous. Where does it stop. We cut down trees to make the hives. We use plastic to put the honey in. We use fossil fuels to deliver it or check our hives. 
You have choices. We steal from the bees their hard work that they died to make. On and on. 
SO WHAT! No one person can make everybody else perfectly happy. Stay inside the laws is what we ask as a people. Freedom does not mean everyone will agree. It does mean I will tolerate what you do inside the laws of our country. I don't have to like it. And it can get personal like burning the flag that was draped over some of my men. Burns me up inside. Even that seems to be within their rights that we fought for so I let it go. I wouldn't help them if they needed it and you may never buy honey from that guy but that's the rights we have. 
You have your right to exercise your freedom of speech to denounce what he finds a normal, done it for years, business practice. You also have the right to set up a booth right next to him and put him out of business. But make him change his ways? We never had that right bestowed on us. You are even allowed in this country to hate him. It's a great country. Do what ever you want inside the law.
It bothers me that some of our animals are better protected than our brothers and sisters. Illegal to starve an animal but kids go hungry. But someone went to the trouble to get those laws put on the books. Our laws are nothing more than a way to enforce what someone believes in. 
We are a great people that disagree in the backyard and fight like crazy but in the front yard against the world we stand together. Of course that's just my way of looking at it.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

enjambres said:


> So, I have a question .....
> 
> If you shake out your bees at the end of the season, as theHoneyHouseholder does, how do you transfer them to someone else to make up colonies with?
> 
> ...


I have buyers from the south that come and shake the bees out into package cages. The package that they shake from above the brood chamber is queenless and the buyer adds in a queen. Most get two package per hive. There is about 10% of the bees that are left behind to hack the brood out. People ask what I get for the bees. $30 a hive. 

Hope that answered your question Nancy.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

We had a pony one time that we had raised from a colt and then tried to self train it so we could ride it. We did not know what we were doing and were just kids. Now that horse would let us get on its back most of the times (once in a while it would buck me off) and you could kick it and sometimes it would go and sometimes it would just stand there. So I carried a switch and I would smack it on the butt. Now I know the horse did not know what I wanted cause half the time when I was beating it on the butt it would kick both back legs out. So beating a horse that doesn't know why could be considerred animal abuse. From my perspective, I didn't know of any other way to train a horse to do it in the time I was willing to work at it and what was usually on my mind was going to my best friends house a mile away and not having to walk. Mostly it worked out even if there were more humane ways of doing it and I figured we were even cause the horse got me there sometimes and bucked me off sometimes and we neither one got real good at either.

So I guess I say that abuse could be called cause there was probly a better way to do the horse thing but I figured it worked out even if it was abuse and I did like the horse most of the time.

I also spanked my kids while they were very young. I really believe that is part of the reason that I did not have to or truthfully be given any reason to want to when they got a older. A couple of good ones to show it was possible but then never having to do it again seems like a good deal.

So, I say that it is the reason and accomplishment for doing something that matters and just plain meaness would be abuse. 

My grandma and my mom would get mad at my dad because he was sometimes gruff with animals but one day I tried to help them load a sow on the truck to go to slauter that just would not go. They had a shocker and when the meat came back from the locker, it was black and blue from the beating my mom and grandma gave it trying to get it on that truck. Every time that sow would turn around in the loading shoot and try to run over one of them they would start beating it on the nose and honestly all over the place. We still laugh about the kettle calling the pot black everytime this story is reamembered.

I am sure any one that ever raised amimals has had a few contrary ones and have stories of thier own even if they won't tell them.

However, I still keep my pet chickens around and pour bad money after good and the only enjoyment from some of them is watching them chase moths and scratch leaves. They are my pets.
Cheers
gww


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

I didn't read all posts from FP, so will have to go back to read (when I feel better).

Wanted to put this in (for the ones that think we must question the BK's honey for cheating) http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-Control-Illegal-Substances&p=1582815&posted=

Uhh? Putting illegal poisons in a hive for SHB ? But the subject of the OP is to be questioned??

FlowerPlanter, for you post of the "types" of people and then the "mental analysis" - sorry, but that is way off. Hitting/kicking an animal does not mean someone is a psychopath.

If you think hitting or kicking at an animal makes a person a psychopath you better stay away from cattle ranches - when you deal with large animals that can easily kill a person - sometimes it takes a kick or a hard hit (what do you think goads are for) to make the animal understand they are not allowed to do what they are doing (whether that is a bull trying to challenge you by pushing with his horns - or a cow that decides she can win if why kicks at you enough).


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I got the impression, maybe wrong, that HH was shaking into packages. I hope I am right on that.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> Animal abuse is a symptom of psychopathy, some degree of lack of normal empathy. Such people are also at risk of abusing humans.
> 
> Not sure about insect abuse. Upbringing has to do with it, and some people genuinely see insects as "bugs", of no consequence or feelings and have no problem killing them or inflicting pain on them, but the person may otherwise be completely normal, and would not abuse an animal.


Getting a little tangentel (sp?) to topic on those points I have a friend of many years who absolutely abhors snakes and pigs. Conversely I have a fondness for reptila and will beat you to death for a feed of roasted wild pork! 
My friend kills on sight, no quarter given. Yet a more "normal" balanced well educated fellow you could not hope to meet. It took me quite some years and "bible lessons"(his) to figure it out.
Snakes are Satan incarnate and swine eat human flesh.
I live with it but it does make me wince when he pulls out the shotty to blast
a scub python into oblivion ;-(

Bill


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

bill
I am with your friend on the snake killing. I am sometime too lazy to follow through but have no qualms given the opertunity. On the pigs, I have a cousen who likes to fish but throw them back. My neibor has a lake behind me where I get this "drown worms". Some proof I saved from the day before yesterday cause I knew you liked your worms.








So anyway, I like my hobbys to pay. When I deer hunt, I am not for trophy horns but because I love deer meat. 

So when my cousin wanted to fish I told him strongly he aught to keep the fish and give them to me. I don't mind doing the cleaning cause fried fish is great in winter. I am sure he still threw some back but it was a pretty easy gethering for me cause he did save some for me.

If your pig guy is close, you need to impress on him that those pigs don't have to go to waste.

But the snakes, oh well, they are ment to bite the heals of men and men are made to crush their heads with thier heal, or something like that.
I have only gotten to taste wild pork one time in my life and in Mo there is almost a bounty on them cause the state does not want them to get established.
Cheers
gww


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@gww
...thanks m8, the worms yield! ;-))
The fish..are they talipia?
https://www.daf.qld.gov.au/fisheries/pest-fish/noxious-fish/tilapia

Having eaten more "bushpig" than was maybe good for me trim figure (not) I in my sunset years can only reminisce(sp?) on those glory days we ran around the country with knife, rope and dogs selecting the weekend's meal.
Outside of tuna poling it is the most exhilarating 'sport' I ever pursued, not being financial enough to skydive or scubadive.

And no, I left my buddy behind when I relocated in retirement.. sacrifices in Life, hey ... cheers ;-)

Bill


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Bill 
Not talipia but bluegill and a few small large mouth bass. I caught two pound and a halfers yesterday but I am a worm and cork fisherman and so am going mostly for the blue gill.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluegill

They say fish are brain food but I am sure you can see by my post that there must be no scientific proof of that.
Cheers
gww


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Yes, Honeyhouseholder, you satisfied my curiosity about how the bees were removed from their hives. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

What happens to the 10% of the bees that are left behind after the packages depart and the brood that hatches out afterward? And what happens to the queens in the colonies that are shaken? 

I find it hard to wrap my head around this economic model, though, since you are just buying more packages to replace these bees next spring. Out of curiosity do you buy your packages from the same operation you sell them too? 

Nancy


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Gww, don't sell yourself short. While your spelling may not be the greatest, your thought processes and logic are as good as anyone's. Your posts are entertaining to read and I enjoy them, even when we disagree. Just be you and don't worry about what people might think. 

I love a nice fat bluegill fried with a little cornmeal and butter. Way better tasting than bass. Catfish however is on the top of my freshwater list.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

eltalia said:


> Getting a little tangentel (sp?) to topic on those points I have a friend of many years who absolutely abhors snakes and pigs. Conversely I have a fondness for reptila and will beat you to death for a feed of roasted wild pork!
> My friend kills on sight, no quarter given. Yet a more "normal" balanced well educated fellow you could not hope to meet. It took me quite some years and "bible lessons"(his) to figure it out.


I didn't say killing an animal is abuse or psycopathy, if it's killed humanely, that's fine.

Likewise hitting cattle to guide them where I want them to go is not abuse. It could be, but if done just to get them moving the right direction then no more, it's just normal.

Thing in our modern world, is you say animal abuse, and someone thinks certain farm practises are abuse. Many people don't even know the difference any more. To me, animal abuse is deliberately inflicted cruelty, probably for the enjoyment of doing it. And the person who does that, has a problem. Same as bullying.

Abuse is a video I saw once on youtube before they had time to remove it, where a dog was tied to a tree, and 3 laughing teenagers took turns shooting at it with an air rifle. After a horrible 10 minutes or so which I skipped most of but came in at the end to see what happened, they poured gasoline on it, and while it was cringing in terror, lit it. Still laughing. Those 3 guys were very likely psychopaths.

In the USA there have been some world famous serial killers who would be psychopaths. I watched a TV series about several of them, and most of them started out as children, torturing animals. It's lack of empathy.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jw
I bet we agree on more then we dissagree on though I do take exception to your catfish remark, nothing taste better then bluegill.

Oldtimer, I agree with your last post. I will say that it seems that killing anything becomes harder and harder for me with every year that I live. I can still do it but I think it came a little easier when I was younger. It was also sort of a rite of passage in growing from a youngster to an adult in my atmostpheere. What I hated worse then killing even when young was not killing and cutting off the balls and tails of the pigglets. I did it but learnt something about myself. My wife can not kill but she is good at pulling splinters and such from crying children. I can hardly stand being around pain but can butcher a dead animal quite well. I knew a preacher who was great at giving comfort at hospitals and funerals and I was always scared that my foot would end up in my mouth in those situations and would hurt some one.

I think the world is a better place with people having differrent talents. It is important that those talents are used to help and not hurt.
Cheers
gww


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@Oldtimer

I reckon we can agree to agree.
I was merely transporting that same disconnect for insects into the perspective some hold animals in, and are normal people, usually, my mate's "bible studies" aside : chuckles:

Bill


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

"They say fish are brain food but I am sure you can see by my post that there must be no scientific proof of that ."

If I own a belief system it is one that goes like ---- fish emerged as lizard to walk on land to become monkey who knew Adam. The rest is history but some fish left their brains at the high tide mark. 
Your ancestor my friend took a tote bag and gathered up those discarded 
by others at the tideline ;-)

Bill


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

We live in a world where animals bred for food are processed in such a way they are not recognized anymore as animals, they are just meat.
No head attached, no innards, no struggling to be seen. 
Put a fish on the table with head still on, many would not eat it.

The farm we purchase our meat had an open day once. The pigs were laying in the sun enjoying themselves. Some kids were around petting them through the fence. I said: hey nice Schnitzel they are, tomorrow you will eat them.
They did not believe it first, later they cried.

There are many vegetarian people who do not eat meat after watching videos of slaughterhouses or how animals are kept. 
There are many people who don´t know that brown cows actually give no cocoa and that they have milk because they are constantly pregnant and the bull calves are just thrown away onto the waste heaps.
There are many people who don´t know male baby chickens are killed right after hatching, not even used for animal food, just thrown away.

I like the native americans way, they believed the deer heard their praying for food and came along to provide for them. To give a life for living, freely. And the people said thanksgiving prayers.
Our harvest celebrations still are from former times. Thanksgiving prayers for being sustained by god ( or nature).


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

*gww*: though I don't eat pork (Biblical unclean) - I am doubting you mom and grandmom were to blame for all the bruises (unless they were using bats? ). Sounds more like the animal probably went bonkers on transport. I have found that humans tend to hurt themselves long before they will inflict even a bruise on an animal.

*Oldtimer*: That is sick (i.e. the video). Don't know if it is a mental disorder or drugs, or something else - but it is against the law and the law is there for such people. I do hope they got taken care of.

*eltalia*: I don't know of any Bible that came from (snakes/pigs). Snakes are not the embodiment of satan, and not eating pig meat has nothing to do with what they eat. Pigs and snakes are both unclean meats according to God's dietary Laws - that is the reason they are avoided in the diet. What you describe is some odd superstition.

I myself *dislike* snakes extremely - they tend to sneak up on you (or you them). I don't know what it is about them that makes me yell like a teenage girl when I almost step on one -- very embarrassing to say the least.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Mike


> *gww*: though I don't eat pork (Biblical unclean) - I am doubting you mom and grandmom were to blame for all the bruises (unless they were using bats? ). Sounds more like the animal probably went bonkers on transport. I have found that humans tend to hurt themselves long before they will inflict even a bruise on an animal.


Pork?
perhaps in the old testimate but also probly a dicussion that could take much too long and would be in the wrong place on this forum and thread. I just say that pork is close to my favorite next to deer. I would say on grandma and mom and baseball batts, not when they started loading but before they got it loaded, it was as close to being baseball bats with out actually being one. I have had animals go crazy in the back of the truck. A horse one time jumped over the racks and on the cab on a fairly new truck and I was really young and climed in the floor boards by the dash and cried while dad got out and fixed the situation. I have quite a few stories.
Cheers
gww


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

MikeJ wrote in part;
"I myself * dislike* snakes extremely - they tend to sneak up on you (or you them) . I don't know what it is about them that makes me yell like a teenage girl when I almost step on one - - very embarrassing to say the least "

Long is the list of Australian "bite ya" critters, but of them, snakes - with maybe one exception, the King Brown (Mulga Snake) in September to November - always run before you even see them. In fact when I hear folk say "no snakes around here" I smile in fondness for those very afraid very smart/savvy snakes.
My knowledge of USA elapids is very limited, and I was quite surprised recently to read not all rattlers have a rattle, and of those that do most do not rattle. We here in Australia have been fed a line on that one as it is widely believed rattlers are a snake that warns you they are going to strike.
None of ours do, you wear it when they intend to.
http://reptilesofaustralia.com/snakes/elapids/elapids.htm


"What you describe is some odd superstition"

I can assure you, not so, Sir. My m8 has scripture for breakfast dinner and tea.. double servings on Saturdays !! : chuckle:
Mind you, other mates of mine equally faith driven - of assorted dogmas - do agree with you ;-)

/scratching head/
Hey... I've lost a topic, somewhere. Anybody seen it?

Bill


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Yup....it's right here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?340810-Pull-honey-dump-out-the-bees-call-it-good


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

*gww*: I see, understandable though - I have been in situations with large animals in which you just can't wait to figure out a better way - - you just have to do. As for the Pork (why it isn't just OT) - if you want to discuss it feel free to private message me, always pleased to take part in such conversations.

*eltalia*: I am continually intrigued by the Aussie vocab . We do not have poisonous snaked up here in Maine (I am told) - don't know what it is, just a reaction lol. If you wish to discuss the off topic discussion about the other also feel free to PM me.

*Ravenseye*: I have to say you have been hugely patient with this thread


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

MikeJ said:


> D. We do not have poisonous snaked up here in Maine (I am told) - don't know what it is, just a reaction lol.
> )


From wikipedia so for what it is worth; "Maine, for example, has only one species (timber rattlesnake); they are rarely seen, and then only in the southern part of the state, but the species is likely extinct in Maine, with the last sighting in 1901.[7] 2010s[edit]"

NH and Mass list them as endangered.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well we don't have snakes in good ole' New Zealand, or any other critters that will give you a poison bite, other than the katipo spider which is habitat specific to driftwood on beaches.

So I tend to get told off when poking around the bush in Australia cos I'm not used to not being able to lift logs, put my hand in a hole, or whatever, because of the risk of snakes, spiders, and whatever else it is they have over there that is waiting to kill you. :lookout:

We did find a dead brown in my daughters swimming pool which we been swimming in every day.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@Oldtimer didst plea innocence with;
"Well we don' t have snakes in good ole' New Zealand , or any other critters that will give you a poison bite ...."

Yeh but yeh but yeh, no... you got these guys!!

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Rugb...rive-plans-to-disrupt-bok-set-pieces-20171004

heh.. best we (royal) cease with tangents to topic 
or risk a birdstrike from > 10,0000 feet up! : grins:

Bill


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)




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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Hopefully one more tangent to topics will be forgiven?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vudA72hibg
Cheers
gww


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Saltybee said:


> From wikipedia so for what it is worth; "Maine, for example, has only one species (timber rattlesnake); they are *rarely* seen, and then only in the southern part of the state, but the species is *likely* extinct in Maine, with the last sighting in 1901.[7] 2010s[edit]"
> 
> NH and Mass list them as endangered.


Thanks so much Salty - somehow I feel if there is one left I will find it.
They also claim all the wolves are extinct up here - problem being people keep sighting them, and then the state gov. says it is not possible (so wonder if the timer rattler is as extinct as the wolves).
When we lived in Florida there were all kind of snakes - cotton mouths were pretty common in our area.


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## bubbalowe (Oct 3, 2013)

Hillbillybees said:


> This is getting ridiculous. Where does it stop. We cut down trees to make the hives. We use plastic to put the honey in. We use fossil fuels to deliver it or check our hives.
> You have choices. We steal from the bees their hard work that they died to make. On and on.
> SO WHAT! No one person can make everybody else perfectly happy. Stay inside the laws is what we ask as a people. Freedom does not mean everyone will agree. It does mean I will tolerate what you do inside the laws of our country. I don't have to like it. And it can get personal like burning the flag that was draped over some of my men. Burns me up inside. Even that seems to be within their rights that we fought for so I let it go. I wouldn't help them if they needed it and you may never buy honey from that guy but that's the rights we have.
> You have your right to exercise your freedom of speech to denounce what he finds a normal, done it for years, business practice. You also have the right to set up a booth right next to him and put him out of business. But make him change his ways? We never had that right bestowed on us. You are even allowed in this country to hate him. It's a great country. Do what ever you want inside the law.
> ...


Well said. The arguments against dumping bees to claim all the honey are based on emotions rather than the fact it is a viable business practice. Unless someone is wearing a black robe or has wings they are in no position to judge another, especially in the world of beekeeper's opinions.


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## jess rotten (Apr 24, 2016)

mike if you are going to bring g-d into it you should at read the front of the book in the it clearly shows in genesis that it is our duty to care for g-ds creation


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

jess rotten said:


> mike if you are going to bring g-d into it you should at read the front of the book in the it clearly shows in genesis that it is our duty to care for g-ds creation


But apparently you get a get out of jail free card if it's a business or you don't do it with hate in yer heart. Must be great! 

Seriously though, the arguments excusing it because "it's a viable business practice" baffle me. I'm a business person myself, and I just don't get it. I think business needs to be held to HIGHER standards than a backyard hobbyist. 
Look around..greedy business practices cause us some serious grief. They get no free pass from me.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Does anyone else find it amazing that this topic has generated 190 posts, so far. Clearly we divide ourselves into two factions, one that cares about the bees, and one that cares about the honey. Ok, there is no money in the bees themselves except for selling to other bks. And apparently, there is a fair amount of money in honey. If I were in the business of producing honey, I can see how my attitude towards the subject might be different. Thankfully, I am not. This gives me the freedom to choose a perspective that is more in line with with my overall philosophy. That does not make my view more or less right. But I do go to bed at night with the belief that I have followed my conscience.

@gww, I'll bring the beer if you make the popcorn...opcorn:


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

But I do go to bed at night with the belief that I have followed my conscience.

But don't you know if you do not agree with me you have no conscience? How's that go ? Judge Not....


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Saltybee said:


> But I do go to bed at night with the belief that I have followed my conscience.
> 
> But don't you know if you do not agree with me you have no conscience? How's that go ? Judge Not....


Does that make me unconscionable? Nah. Your conscience and my conscience don't have to agree for us both to sleep well. Of couse mine and my wife's have to agree cause the couch is uncomfortable. 

BTW, an opinion is not a judgment, it is a statement of personal beliefs, although, in an earlier post on this topic, I may have mentioned a woodshed...

Lest ye be judged.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jw


> earlier post on this topic, I may have mentioned a woodshed...


That is what got me wound up, ha,ha.
Cheers
gww


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

i used to have an opinion about the people on here who shook their bees at the end of the season, then i accidentally killed most of my hives those first couple winters. Since then i have lost hundred of hives to poor management, bad timing, fungicide, mites, unusual cold, etc...now i think that might be the humane way to kill them. i am getting better at keeping them alive, but it is a long curve.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@larryh
.... and the business will fall over, the demand is finite.
I won't be weeping for the guy's loss but I doubt such an operator would worry anyway... there is always a bridge to sell, to someone.

Bill


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@JWPalmer
There is another group who recognises Man will always sell his spiel whilst holding his own cards close. For all we are to know that "hawker of honey" might well have his rubber dinghy tied to an oilwell, bulwarks decked out in "Save the Seals" paraphanalia(sp?)... I think ))

Bill


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## aiannar974 (Mar 29, 2017)

How prevalent is this? I cannot find anything on it other than this thread. Maybe know one wants to talk about it be cause it will get heated.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It's not something people want to talk about, amongst the general public, anyway.

40'ish years ago, from here in New Zealand where our fall coincides with your spring, in fall when our flow was over and the hives had large populations of surplus bees, we used to send thousands of packages to Canada, along with fall produced queens. Strange as it may seem, it was actually good for our hives, to get rid of those surplus bees after the flow, rather than have them sitting around consuming food stores intended for winter, while they were waiting to die.

My understanding was that in those days, letting all the bees die in fall was standard procedure in much of Canada, and they all started out with packages in spring. Since then, cheap packages are less available and many of those beekeepers have found ways to get their bees through winter.

Also, I can see why this discussion has brought out views on ethics, morals, and religion. Those views are not really off topic in this discussion, because how we treat animals is at least in part, a question of ethics / morals / religion.

NZ packages still make their way to Canada, but my understanding is there are not the quantities there used to be.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

EDIT - Double Posted


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## Kcnc1 (Mar 31, 2017)

Those views are not really off topic in this discussion, because how we treat animals is at least in part, a question of ethics / morals / religion

I am a new hobbyist and plan on keeping my hives as healthy as possible for as long as possible.

But in examining ethics, morals or religion be consistent. With regard to mites, are you treatment free because you will not kill one insect at the expense of another? Do you smash SHB when you see them, or let them on their merry way? Has the bee been elevated because it produces something you want? 
Just some food for thought


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

And there I go thinking the honey was the food for thought. Oh well. Bees are elevated because we as humans find them beneficial. I will brake for a squirrel, find rabbits cute, and kill mice with abandon. They are all members of the order rodentia. I suppose we do hold certain animals and insect in higher regard than others. After all, who kills butterflies because they hate them? Most of us love to see bee larvae, but fly larvae disgust us. We keep gerbils and hamsters as pets, but call the exterminator when we see a rat. So yes Virginia, I mean kcnc1, there is an elevated status given to certain lower order animals and luckily, we as individual humans, get to decide which we favor.

Somebody point me in the direction of the nearest bear. I feel the urge to poke something.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Kcnc1 said:


> Has the bee been elevated because it produces something you want?


Pretty much, right or wrong, that's the way it works.

But as to cruelty, it's wrong, be it to any creature including rats, or whatever. However at some point a line must be drawn for us to exist. For example if we decided we would never crush a bee, the only way to achieve that would be not keep them, the odd bee death is unavoidable. So to me, we do our best, but that's all we can do.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Rabbits were always rodents to me; Daughter was quite firm in correcting me about her pet rabbit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit

I can copy and paste it but I sure cannot say it; Lagomorpha


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## aiannar974 (Mar 29, 2017)

i think it is a non issue. very few people do this. i cant find any on google. absolutely none.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

aiann...


> i think it is a non issue. very few people do this. i cant find any on google. absolutely none.


That is fine but of course this thread was started about one that said he does do it. So if only one does it, it is a non issue.
Cheers
gww
Ps jw your post was more fun to read then mine was to write.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

aiannar974 said:


> ... very few people do this. i cant find any on google. absolutely none.


I can't tell if you're joking.. you must be joking.

I'd be surprised if there are many doing it, but they certainly aren't going to be spouting off on the internet about it.

Then again.. nothing having to to with stupid can surprise me anymore.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

I would have to say that if a beekeeper can gross over a quarter million dollars, they are hardly stupid.

"Good" business practice does not mean moral or immoral. Someone can make a lot of money morally or immorally - - but usually not stupidly.

I just do not see a moral problem with it. As someone who does not make a living off the bees it appears as something I would feel bad about doing. On the other hand, if I were making my living off of it - I could see it being acceptable (to myself). But I can not find anything to do with morals on either hand (and I use God's Word for that judgment - not my feelings).

Now if a beekeeper dumped the bees because he got a joy out of simply killing things or making pain - then yes we can find a moral judgment.


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## Kcnc1 (Mar 31, 2017)

[QUOTE=JWPalmer;1583195 So yes Virginia, I mean kcnc1, there is an elevated status given to certain lower order animals and luckily, we as individual humans, get to decide which we favor

My point exactly. So in making a decision about others, calling them amoral or unethical because they choose a different, or no insect, to favor is inconsistent. I'm comfortable with knowing I like certain rodents while others bother me. 

My point was those people making this an ethical or moral argument are inconsistent if they agree with what you said about some rodents ok, others not. Or treat to kill some insects not others. 

i don't see this as an ethical or moral situation. Or if it is, I'm comfortable with the knowledge that I will kill some insects, so am no better than someone else who sees a bee as I do a roach.

Oldtimer, I agree. It is the way it is. To me the honeybee is elevated, because we get something out of it. So to say others who feel differently are somehow ethically or morally challengesd is just wrong. Our motives were Self interest to start with when we elevated the bee above , say, a yellow jacket.

As my grandmother would have said: oh, get off your high horses


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I imagine this business model does not depend on paying $105 to $115 a package and being told it will be 2 weeks late on delivery, no driving and standing in line either! 
Probably gets pretty good service.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

[from tbe original post]
"He runs around 20 hives for honey"


...to throw some "back-of-the-matchbox" maths around???
20 times $110 minus .5% fail plus some gas, plus sale 
packaging is maybe $2500.
#19 harvest @ 60lb each with retail @ $8/lb is maybe $9000.
Done twice and within market pressures of sale price
the chap could be grossing triple that easy.

Remembering the chap's prime business is the fruit stand
- so clearing over $6000 dollars as 'cream' AND using the 
advertising "honey hook" to get folk at his fruit stand has 
to be a workable model when he is happy to discuss 
micromanagment with passing customers. No?

Bill


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I perceive a slightly different take on this. By your argument, if the honey producer was killing bees because he was afraid of them, allergic, whatever, then that holds true. In this case, he is using them to derive an income. Therefore, he has a duty to care for them as any other animal for which you take responsibility. That is the distinction in my mind. Not whether or not killing a bug is amoral or unethical.

Very fine lines, but very distinct.
All my best to those who feel strongly enough about this topic to post one way or the other.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

"Therefore, he has a duty to care for them as any other animal for which you take responsibility."

Yep, and I'll bet the fellow cares for them real well in the honey cycle.
If not then indeed he is a scalper. One hideously foul scoundrel, for 
sure :-}

Bill


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Pretty much, right or wrong, that's the way it works.
> 
> But as to cruelty, it's wrong, be it to any creature including rats, or whatever. However at some point a line must be drawn for us to exist. For example if we decided we would never crush a bee, the only way to achieve that would be not keep them, the odd bee death is unavoidable. So to me, we do our best, but that's all we can do.


Very good point.



JWPalmer said:


> And there I go thinking the honey was the food for thought. Oh well. Bees are elevated because we as humans find them beneficial. I will brake for a squirrel, find rabbits cute, and kill mice with abandon. They are all members of the order rodentia. I suppose we do hold certain animals and insect in higher regard than others. After all, who kills butterflies because they hate them? Most of us love to see bee larvae, but fly larvae disgust us. We keep gerbils and hamsters as pets, but call the exterminator when we see a rat. So yes Virginia, I mean kcnc1, there is an elevated status given to certain lower order animals and luckily, we as individual humans, get to decide which we favor.


We do hold some animal valued more than others; Rats destroy our food stores, spread diseases which could potentially wipe out mankind. Bees are linked to the survival of our species they pollinate much of what we eat and make honey for us. Intentionally killing them is killing a friend to the human race. 

And it's not even necessary for the business to survive it's to make even more money. MP shows you can winter bees in the north and even make more honey from overwintered bees vs. new packages. Ian shows you can winter them in Canada. So shaking bees out and leaving them for dead may even be costing more money in the long run.



MikeJ said:


> a beekeeper dumped the bees because he got a joy out of simply killing things or making pain - then yes we can find a moral judgment.


But it's ok to dump them for a business. As long as it's part of the business plan and makes money.

Every time big business is mixed with anything we lose; ethics, morality, quality, money, pay, living conditions, environment... All in the name of business. 

It's also ironic the reason they dump their bees in the first place is because of big business, producing weak packages that can't survive in the north. They're stuck in a walmart loop.


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## bubbalowe (Oct 3, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> It's not something people want to talk about, amongst the general public, anyway.
> 
> 40'ish years ago, from here in New Zealand where our fall coincides with your spring, in fall when our flow was over and the hives had large populations of surplus bees, we used to send thousands of packages to Canada, along with fall produced queens. Strange as it may seem, it was actually good for our hives, to get rid of those surplus bees after the flow, rather than have them sitting around consuming food stores intended for winter, while they were waiting to die.
> 
> ...


It was another Old Timer who told me the story of Canadians way back not trying to over winter their bees so now it adds up where the cheap bees came from.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

FlowerPlanter said:


> ...
> We do hold some animal valued more than others; Rats destroy our food stores, spread diseases which could potentially wipe out mankind. Bees are linked to the survival of our species they pollinate much of what we eat and make honey for us. Intentionally killing them is killing a friend to the human race.


There are plenty of pollinators. Beekeepers tend to over rate the need for honeybees - they are apart of God's creation and have a place that is important - - but the world doesn't end without them (I look at our very large gardens and most of what I see doing pollination is not honeybees). 



FlowerPlanter said:


> And it's not even necessary for the business to survive it's to make even more money. MP shows you can winter bees in the north and even make more honey from overwintered bees vs. new packages. Ian shows you can winter them in Canada. So shaking bees out and leaving them for dead may even be costing more money in the long run.


Yes - that is the one point I do not get of his business practice. Sell the bees.
But no - overwintering bees costs a lot more than getting rid of them. Loss in honey, loss in money to treat, etc..



FlowerPlanter said:


> But it's ok to dump them for a business. As long as it's part of the business plan and makes money.
> 
> Every time big business is mixed with anything we lose; ethics, morality, quality, money, pay, living conditions, environment... All in the name of business.
> 
> It's also ironic the reason they dump their bees in the first place is because of big business, producing weak packages that can't survive in the north. They're stuck in a walmart loop.


Big business? 
Big bee business, Big agriculture, Big drug companies - - so stop supporting big bee; overwinter and support big drug


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

eltalia said:


> Yep, and I'll bet the fellow cares for them real well in the honey cycle.
> If not then indeed he is a scalper. One hideously foul scoundrel, for
> sure :-}
> 
> Bill


I deduce he is doubtlessly a demon, dredged from the depths of depravity. Destined to be denounced for dumping.

Best that I can do in the alliteration dept.
Feel free to have a go at it.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@JWPalmer
I do believe that use of depravity trumps mine utterance of scalper!
At least one quadrant of the room is convinced the fellow is a wholly scurrilous cad... tis the Witch's-Chair for the reprobate.... heh :-D

/tips hat/

Bill


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## Kcnc1 (Mar 31, 2017)

Jw
If I understand you, the fact that he derives an income changes his responsibility to that insect vs others? 
Let alone the scared of angle and think of the nest of yellow jackets that are robbing hive. A beekeeper will probably destroy it if he finds it. Many beekeepers will us OA to kill mites. I find nothing wrong with this, but I do find it wrong to then say he is superior morally or ethically to the one described in the OP.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Hey before big almond checks, comm. bk would do away with 1/2 to 2/3 of there hives in the winter time. You only need 1/2 your hives in the spring for seed to get started each year. This is farming you know.:scratch:

Now that almond checks are just as big as honey checks. 

Honey is what makes my living. NOT almonds. Why wouldn't a guy shake his bees out and by fresh bees that doesn't have the winter problems. A wintered hive produces me 50-60 lbs. A fresh package will end up producing me 124-200 lbs. At that kind of production I can buy new packages every year and pay the bill. Might even help put a kid to school with the little extra.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I’m told that it was a common practice in Canada before the border was closed to bee shipments. 

There are some polarized views on the subject. Simply because I wouldn’t choose to do it doesn’t mean that it is wrong for someone else to do so. As some vegans would say….making a living from animals, in any form…including beekeeping, is unethical. 

Remember folks….these are your opinions. It is so totally arrogant to believe that everyone should think the same as you.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

It is indeed difficult to have a discussion regarding philosophical issues on a forum post. I do not imply any moral or ethical superiority on the part of bks that over winter vs those that for economic reasons do not. I state only my personal view that since we are caring for these insects the best way we know how, as beekeeper we have a duty to continue to care for them. If that means selling the hive off at the end of the season fine, an attempt has been made to ensure the hive's continued existence. Call it sustainable apiculture, whatever. While I feel that it is morally wrong to dump the bees vs caring for them or selling them, that does not put me in a position to judge. It is merely something in my current situation that I would not do. And by all accounts, it appears that there are many among the hobbyist beekeepers who feel this way. That is not to say that an equal number among the commercial keepers feel that we are the ones who haven't figured out the best way to keep bees. So not only is all beekeeping local, it would seem that it is personal too.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@beemandan
"Remember folks ….these are your opinions . It is so totally arrogant to believe that everyone should think the same as you ."

huh..?..what da!
Issat an "opinion", or a statement of terms of engagement?
Is it possible some of the lighter comments are shading your read, negatively?

Remember *any* opinion expressed in these pages is not going
to influence whatever practice by whomever anywhere. Think of it as 
more of "shooting the breeze" than any pervasive campaign designed
to promote a world view you either comply with or find guilt in not
being compliant.

Bill


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## Dave1 (Aug 14, 2018)

dont worry mate 
hes just telling lies purchasing bees for every hive he wiil be running at a loss


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Dave1 said:


> dont worry mate
> hes just telling lies purchasing bees for every hive he wiil be running at a loss


This thread is from last year. And know he wouldn't. The cost of package in bulk like $120. He only needs like 15lb of honey per hive if selling at $8/lb. In Chicago 10-12$/lb wouldn't be unheard of.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I beg to disagree dave1. There is a substantial cost in overwintering bees that one must consider and the ability to take and sell ALL the honey adds a significant amount to the bottom line. While I personally abhor this business model for ethical reasons, I have no doubt that it is economically viable.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

I have to admit I don't like the idea and wouldn't do it, but I can't judge it either, because, correct me if I'm wrong, but if we look at the history of beekeeping up until Langstroth, this is was how it was done, destroy the hive and harvest the honey. And I suspect this is still a very common practice throughout the world.


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