# Buckfast Queens



## Mitch

Hi all i see the string on Carnies.Just wondering what you all may think of the Buckfast.I am planning on requeening next spring.I know there will be some Carnies in there but a few in my area use buckfast.So i am just planning on what i want to do for queens next spring.Any ifo will be great.

Bob


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## Michael Bush

I had most of my hives with Buckfasts for 28 years. They were good preformers in my climate. They produced well and had good timing for a Northern climate. They went postal on me a couple of years ago and I decided to go another direction. I know of people around here who still use nothing but Buckfasts.


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## Mitch

Thanks MB
I have had Italian and carnies
so far.Ilike the carnies better for fast build up and working at a bit cooler temps.As you have seen this year from my posts i have not messed with queens much so far.I need to do this i know now.The postal thing is what I do not want and the Carnies seem to swarm more.The other thing i have see is if the carnie is replaced the 2nd gen.seem to get a bit mean sometimes.This could be breeding from the origina queen.But if i can stay away from hot hives it would be nice.Buckfast seems to be an option for me here in the north.I May just try both and see what happens.alot depends on what i can get close by that i can pick up>I hate dead bees thru the mail is such a waist.
Bob


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## Hook

Carny second generation are mean, well the ones I had were. But, the 3rd generation seemed a bit more tolerable. Carnys really should be used as drones to breed other bees with, in my opinion. They lack comb building traits, but build fast. Now mix it with Italian for example, you will get faster buildup, better comb building, and more honey? This is all theoretical, but seems to be working in my yard. I mixed SMR 4th generation in there, and I still have greay mite resistance.

------------------
Dale Richards
Dal-Col Apiaries
Drums, PA


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## magnet-man

Mitch, I have had experience with buckfast from Texas. I can only say they are mean and will sting you even though you may be 20 feet from the hive. If you dont mind working with mean bees the buckfast are great. Beekeeping should be enjoyable and mean bees dont make it enjoyable.


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## mobees

I have seen pure Buckfast bees in Europe they seem tame overall. Has anybody done any studies on the influence of open breeding on varios sub species of honeybees. I have some NWC, Buckfast and Italians. Many have superceded either naturally or after introduction. The Drones are mainly feral. The NWC seem to keep their traits longer after inbreeding with local drones. The Buckfast can go redhot, I had to reQueen a couple. I would be curious to findout info from others.


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## Mitch

The hot hives is what i want to get away from.I want to be able to mow without beibe chaced across the yard. As far as honey production goes.the carnies have done the best for me.But this may be a bit unfair due to weather conditionds vearying so much the last few seasons.I had mostly mutts in my 8 hives this year and did ok on honey but not great.But again the weather had alot to do with it.No bee can build up with the rain we had this spring.

I have alot of small black bees in my area> the local guys call the black german bees and say they are mean as hell.I believe these bees a true wild bees. This could be the reason for the 2nd gen bees being mean.
what do you all think of this? so it may not matter what kind of bee i have in this case.

I have been a bit afraid to hunt down the black bees and catch a swam from what the old timers tell me about them.My dad had bees many years ago and conferms that the black bees a mean.But from what i read on this site this may not be the case.But then it could be differnt kinds of wild bees in other areas too.
Bob

[This message has been edited by Mitch (edited October 19, 2004).]


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## Michael Bush

I think any first cross of two fairly stable gene pools can get hot. Usually the next generation is fine.

>I have been a bit afraid to hunt down the black bees and catch a swam from what the old timers tell me about them.My dad had bees many years ago and conferms that the black bees a mean.

I have caught some. Some of them are mean. Some are not. The next generation of the mean ones, might be quite nice. But all in all most of them are a bit hotter than the domestic varieties. I think it's just because no one has selected them for "nice". Survival tends to select them for defensive.

>But from what i read on this site this may not be the case.But then it could be different kinds of wild bees in other areas too.

I now have all my hives with the black feral queens or their descendants, in my yard at my house (I have some others at my outyard) except for one hive of Carnis that has done so well I can't stand to do away with the queen (she's three years old now and this hive is still a great producer and gentle). 

Of about forty of those ferals, I've only had one that was really mean. It went postal on me yesterday. But I also wonder if the weather isn't part of it. The goldenrod is drying up and there's nothing to forage.

But I do think their temperament is more unpredictable, and you're likely to end up with a really hot one now and again. At least until you get that bred out of them.


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## Mitch

MB
Most of my hives that were hot this year and last are 2nd gen carnie 2 and 3 years old.But i see what you are saying about the meaness being bred out of them.I had one hive last year and one this year that went from hot to as gental as they can get.I can handel a hot hive now and then but there have been to much of that the last 2 years.My bees are in the back yard about 50 yards from the house.

I may try a few buckfast and see what happens if they go postal there will bee no more.I know what the carnies do other than the 2nd gen getting a bit mean they do well for me.

There is another reason i leave the feral bees alone.I know that the feral bees are the best for getting into small cell.But they survive no matter what with out my help or any beekeepers help.So i let them be thinking that one day whatever makes them survive gets passed on to all other bees.
I not against anyone catch them and useing them i just choose not to.I do not feel i am ready to mess with the feral bees.I may just do more harm than good.

Bob


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## franc

Ive really liked the Buckfast I had years ago but now I just can't afford the liablity of getting a queen which may have AHB genes.Ive seen pictures of how these African honey bees act and its not pretty.Other than that Ive had good luck with them and will try to get buckfast queens out of Canada.


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## mark williams

noticed some of you have stated having Queens 2-3 years old,Question? what honey yeild do you get? Do you not have a problem with swarming & if so you don't have that ol'Queen anymore,since I've started requeening each fall.my honey amount has almost doubled.But after reading the above post am I wasting money on new queens?>>>>Mark


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## Michael Bush

>noticed some of you have stated having Queens 2-3 years old

I have quite a few.

>Question? what honey yeild do you get?

Some hives do well others don't. Same as when I requeen every spring or every fall. My most productive hive this year was a three year old Carni queen and has bee for the last two years.

>Do you not have a problem with swarming & if so you don't have that ol'Queen anymore

Mine are all marked with the color of the year so I can tell how old they are. I had two hives that were trying to swarm and I split them and I suspect I had about four that swarmed although I only saw two of them. Two of those were in my outyard where I don't keep as good of track of the bees.

>since I've started requeening each fall.my honey amount has almost doubled.

Well, it seems to be working for you.

>But after reading the above post am I wasting money on new queens?

If you doubled your honey when you started requeening each fall, I'd keep buying those same queens.







You need to do what works for you, and that seems to be working for you.

I requeen anytime I think the queen isn't doing her job. But the bees also requeen when they think the queen isn't doing her job. Sometimes contrary to my opinion.









My method usually (depending on time and effort available) is to requeen any old queen (more than a year old) that is only doing average. I keep any old queen that is still doing above average. I replace any queen that is below average regardless of age. That works out pretty well for me. Especially since I'm raising queens now, I hate to remove a queen who is obviously superior simply because she's old.


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## Mitch

Mark
I had 5 hives make honey this season The best 2 were 2 qnd 3 year old 2nd gen carnies.But on the other hand some of the old queens did not do well.This is why is am going to requeen alot of my hives this spring.And asking questiong about different kinds of bees.I gree totaly with MB no matter how old the queen is if she is not doing well get a new queen.The is the first year i noticed alot of differance in how the queens were doing.This is was my 5th season.Now i know what to look for and plan on keeping mostly young queens.

I plan on doing some experimenting with a hive i got from a wall this summer.This queen was awsome in my eyes.I got this swarm on july 11th.It filled 2 deeps in a short time with bees and honey.she lays huge amount of brood justy a very small bit og honey and pollen in the corners of the frame and all a tight solid patern.These are small bees so im going to try my hand a small cell and making there own queens with a few splits with these bees.
Bob


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## the buzz

I purchased 15 hives from an 84 year old beekeeper. He has never had problems with mites he claims ,so I have not treated them with any form of medication .He has been raising his own queens for the last 60 years. What I have noticed in comparison to my other hives (italian ,russians,carnolians) is the size difference , these bees are much larger and more aggressive. My question is ,could it be that we've been trying to breed a bee that is so fun to work with in cost of having it defenceless?


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## Michael Bush

I've wondered myself if agressivness isn't an advantage when dealing with varroa and maybe even with Small Hive Beetles (SHB). But I'm not ready yet to put up with mean bees.


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## Mitch

Buzz this may be a good point and sure will be debated in the future.But im with MB i dont want a bunch of mean bees.On the other hand it could be that the resistance to mites is being bread out of some bees.Most breeders are breading for resistance.It may be your old beekeeper Got mite resistant bees and just kept the line going.I think i would make my own queens from these bees it you can stand working them.

Bob


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## magnet-man

I have one queen that is marked with blue and you know how old she is. In January she will be a new queen again.










[This message has been edited by magnet-man (edited November 20, 2004).]


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## the buzz

well ,one thing is good ,we don't have hive beetles here yet, But Mitch , i think I'm going to do what you said and breed some queens from these guys. I've always been breeding from my calm hives and the ones that produced well.


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## Rick H

We have a Buckfast breeder about an hour away and when I go there I am always amazed that we can walk in his bee yard and not be attacked. He says he works his bees without a veil or gloves. They are not weak hives either. I have bought queens from him in the past and they are quite calm until the second generation. The solution is to buy a new queen and requeen as necessary. He has Island mated queens from Thorah Is. on Lake Simcoe but I have not asked if he sells them separately.


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## odfrank

Is there a list of Ontario Buckfast breeders that will mail queens to USA ?


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## Guest

I started out keeping bees with Buckfasts,
but that was years ago. I still don't own
a bee suit, and the only gloves I own are 
for snowball fights.

It is true that the Canadians have done
less "tinkering" with their Buckfast lines,
and therefore are "truer" to the Brother Adam
version of Buckfast. But I'm sure that each
and every producer of Buckfasts has a different
tale to tell, and a bee that is slightly
different from the others.

That's why I like NWCs - NWC producers are
producing a very consistent bee, and I can
expect similar, if not identical performance
regardless of the producer.

I guess we need revision numbers for bees,
just like software. I'm flying NWC version
8.6? Well, not today. It was too cold.
Every bee was grounded.


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## Rick H

I will ask this fellow if he sells in the US next time I go there (soon), I think he does but I am not sure. He does produce good numbers of queens and they are becoming more in demand. Was a time you could call him and he'd have queens available, now they have to be ordered if you want any. When I know more and have his permission I will post his contact info.


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## Rick H

Should have answered your question odfrank. Yes we get a list from the Provincial Apiarists office every year as to who raises queens and or nucs and which strain (if any) they are. I could look it up for you if you like.


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## Rogerio

I tried to get some Buckfast queens from Ontario last summer for my fall requeening and found out none of the Buckfast breeders in Ontario sell queens in late summer or fall. I've had bad luck with spring queens and packages so I ordered some Carniolans from Taber's instead. I'll let you know next summer how they turn out.

Roger


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## jdb5949

odfrank,
The Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food maintains a list of queen breeders on their website.
Go to: http://www.gov.on.ca/omafra/english/crops/facts/info_honeybeequeen.htm


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## buckbee

If you had mean Buckies, they were not pure bred. Buckfast bees are renowned for their gentleness - one of the prime characteristics bred into them by Bro Adam. 

(I work at Buckfast Abbey, BTW)


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## Michael Bush

I agree. I had Buckfasts for 27 years and they were MORE gentle than the Italians and more productive and MUCH more adapted to the cold climate here than the Italians. But then some of them went vicious on me and I'm guessing they were crossed with AHB and were NOT purebred.


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## renaud

dear buckbee,

Can you contact me at :
[email protected]

I'm a (young) buckfast breeder and I have some question for you since you work at the abbey. You can see my work here:
http://www.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_RL_2004. 

thank you

Renaud Lavend'homme


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## renaud

Dear buckbee

this link is better 
http://www.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_RL_2004.html 

renaud


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## VABeeKEEPER

I tried one Buckfast queens this past Spring and she took well but the hive is very hot. I can not walk within 10 feet of the hive without the guard bees coming on me. It is in the middle of my Carny yard. This is the only hive that I know will sting me when I work these hives. I have about 10 hives in this small yard and this is hte only one I have issues. It was also a low producer last year. Carny did well.


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## buckbee

Where did you get your Buckfast queen from? It sounds like some poor breeding is going on somewhere.


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## BMogardo

I have used Buckfast Queens for several years. I find that winter the best here on Cape Cod, MA. I love them but they come with an attitude that can take the fun out of working bees. I buy my stock from R Weaver or B Weaver. I had a friend tell me once that there is a miracle going on in Navasota, TX. That being that AHB was all through TX., but not in Navasota. At any rate I still have 10 hives with Buckfast Queens


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## GaSteve

Does everyone who has had "hot" Buckfast queens gotten them from Weavers. If so, maybe their miracle isn't so miraculous afterall.


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## buckbee

I believe that Weavers are the only Buckfast breeder in the USA registered with us - let me know if anyone else is claiming to supply them. 

Has anyone else had problems with Buckies?


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## Michael Bush

As far as I know only the Weavers have them. All of mine were from Weavers and then B Weaver after they split. From 1975 until 2002. The ones I got in 2001 went ballistic on me. I bought one more in 2002 that was rejected and that was the last I bought of them.


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## BULLSEYE BILL

>Has anyone else had problems with Buckies? 

I swore by them the first year for their good production. The second year I swore AT them for their bad teperment. My experiance led me to believe that they were Africanized or something close to it. I won't have them again.


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## Fusion_power

I bought Buckfast queens from Weavers several times over the last 20 years. At no time did they conform completely to the Buckfast standard except one year about 1990 when they got just a few queens imported direct from Buckfast Abbey. That year, the bees were phenomenally productive and not a single one swarmed.

Since then, they have not kept up the selection pressure for the traits of non-swarming and gentleness to the best of my knowledge.

I started purchasing Buckfast queens from Davies Apiaries in Canada and got the traits that Buckfast are known for: Trachael mite tolerance, non-swarming, low propolis use, minimal brace comb, high production, gentle, etc.

I've raised my own replacement queens for the last several years with moderate success at maintaining the pure strain. If I feel they are drifting too much from expectations, I get new breeder queens from Canada. This year, I will be raising from a spectacular queen that exhibits almost no brace comb, produced a very good crop, is gentle and managable, and just finished her third productive season.

Re hot bees, it might help to review an article Steve Taber wrote a few years ago about stinging drones. Whats that you say? Drones don't sting? No but they do have a disproportionate influence on the stinging propensity of the workers they father. If a queen mates on average with 17 drones and just one of those drones carries the dominant traits for high stinging propensity, there will be enough "hot" bees in the hive to make them unmanagable.

Lots of people think the Africanized bee is a recent arrival to the U.S. but they were distributed throughout the U.S. back in the 1960's. They were rapidly diluted in the gene pool and had relatively little influence on the bees we have today. The historical records are there, just check with the Baton Rouge bee lab.

I've seen some really hot colonies over the years, if Africanized stock is any worse, I don't want it. One of them was so hot that I was stung over 100 times in less than a minute. A careful check of the bees revealed a smaller than normal size, 1 or 2 bands of yellowish orange on the abdomen, unusually agitated behavior on the comb and several other traits normally associated with Africanization. Yet this particular colony was in North Alabama in 1978.

Fusion


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## VABeeKEEPER

I got my first and last Buckfast from Weavers last year. Never again...sticking with my Carny's.


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## franc

Yes Buckbee I had about the same as Fusion The Buckfast I got in the early 90s were great very high honey production,low propolis,wintered well and very long lived ...amazingly long lived compared to whats around now.Productive into 3-4 years which was nice because it ment I wasn't requeening every year.I got some Yugo's and tried to improve the mite resistance and loss almost all my hives (40).Then I went back to Weaver Buckfasts again and it was never the same.And I also delt with a very aggressive hive which was a real eye opener....This hive starved to death that winter...I complained to Weavers but was basicly blown off ..he claimed all I wanted was a free Queen the conversation never went anywhere...That was the last time I bought Buckfast queens ...Id really like to try these Buckfast queens from Davies Apiaries.


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## Fusion_power

BUCKFAST:
Barry Davies
RR#1 Seeley's Bay. ON. CA
K0H 2N0
(613)387-3171
[email protected]

BUCKFAST:
Rick Neilson
RR#1 Stratton. ON. CA
P0W 1N0

BUCKFAST:
Paul Montoux
RR#1 Hagerville. ON. CA
N0A 1H0
(905) 768-5530
[email protected]


Here is another link that has contact info.
http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/crops/facts/info_honeybeequeen.htm

One warning, you must reserve your bees early as in right now. They run out within another month or so. shipping dates are typically from June to about the first of September.

Barry Davies operation looks like it is being run by a gentleman named Geoff Wilson now.

Fusion


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## franc

Thanks for the contact information.....Im planning on getting some Buckfast Queens from Canada if I can....


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## Michael Bush

The US just passed a bunch of new regulations on importing queens from Canada. Most of the Canadian queen breeders will not be able to afford to meet all the requirements. I think Canadian queen being imported here may be a thing of the past thanks to excessive government intervention.


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## Jim Fischer

I'm not sure what additional costs Canadian bee
producers might face, as the "requirements" are
so minimal as to be no more than what any bee
producer would do as a normal part of their
business operation. As Canada already has
well-funded federal and provincial bee programs,
they are in much better shape than the US is in
light of the impact of complying with WTO requirements.

You can read my Bee Culture article in the January
2005 issue for the details on how the existing
system of state-level bee regulation in the US
is hurt by this, but I assure you that it is NOT
"excessive government intervention". The US has
no choice but to apply the WTO regs to all imports,
and to allow imports from NZ and Australia, even
though Canada has decided that they would rather
have US bees, as the quality and quantity of bees
they got from NZ and Australia did not satisfy
them.

The US is also forced to ask Canada to follow
the same rules as NZ and Australia, and who
knows who else. To not do so would be to "play
favorites", which would make NZ and Australia
whine and complain even more.

Their complaints would be valid in such a scenario.
It WOULD be "playing favorites", and the WTO
agreements simply do not allow such things.

Not to worry, the producers that export queens
from Canada may moan and groan and cry "unfair"
about something that is exactly fair under the
treaties both countries signed, but they are
sure to ship queens. They make good money at
selling queens, and the US is a "growth market"
for them.

As for the NZ and Australian bee producers,
all I can say is that schemes involving shipping
bees from the other side of the planet need only
the addition of "sharks with friggin laser beams
on their heads" to bring them up to the level of
low comedy.


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## Michael Bush

Here is a quote from a Canadian queen producer:

"	I have finished reading the new regulations regarding 
the export of queens
to the US and the results do not bode well for 2005.
The regulations from the USDA and APHIS Federal 
Registry, Vol 69 No.203
Oct 21 2004 states that we need an inspection health 
certificate 10 days
before shipment, an export license issued by the 
Canadian Food inspection,
the shipment has to go through a port of entry manned 
by
an APHIS inspection agent, the importer has to apply 
for a licence to
import, sign a document and return it to the APHIS 
agent at the port of
entry days before the shipment arrives. If the 
security of the package does
not measure up to a 'standard' then the shipment is 
destroyed at the
shipper's expense. It goes on and on. Draconian to say 
the least.
Regretfully, it would seem the trade protectionists 
in the American
legislature have won again!! Canada bashing is getting 
to be a way of life!
The American Honey Producers Assoc has been agitating 
for many years to
'protect' the US bee business, from where I stand they 
have succeeded in
cutting us out completely.
My previous business was ruined by the NAFTA 
agreement (I think that should
be renamed, North American UNFAIR Trade Agreement) now 
someone has taken
this business as well.
What does it all mean? Simply put, the legislation is 
a mine field for the
small business queen breeders and so it is with a 
heavy heart I have to
close down the US service queen supply, any monies 
will be refunded, all
orders are cancelled.
David Eyre, The Bee Works"


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## TwT

sitting here reading this post made me wonder why nobody else in the USA deals with buckfast abbey for there queens to raise and sell, the weavers do or did but there surrounded by AHB, is it something or someone that you have to know to get these queens from buckfast abbey, with a bee so famous you would think there would be a few more people dealing with buckfast abbey and raising and selling these queens or am I missing something.


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## Todd Zeiner

I've been thinking the same. Would love to hear from "buckbee" on the subject. "Do you have any clout over there, Buckbee?"
If I had the money, I would make the trip to just to see the Abby.
I am done with Weaver until they address this.


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## Jim Fischer

> we need an inspection health
> certificate 10 days before shipment

Yes, you do. How else would you know if you were
shipping disease-free and pest-free bees? Since
Canada has very few SPS/WTO "reportable" diseases
or pests, the list of things that one need inspect
for is very limited.

> Draconian to say the least.

Only if you have no disease/pest control program.
If you have no disease/pest control program, you
shouldn't be shipping bees anywhere, not even
between provinces within Canada.

> Regretfully, it would seem the trade protectionists
> in the American legislature have won again!!

This is a laughably misinformed foaming at the mouth.
First, no "American legislature" had anything to do
with the imposition of the new requirements. Both the
US and Canada are WTO participants, and their respective
WTO negotiators AGREED to these rules, likely without
every considering the impact on people who want to ship
live animals. The rules are less taxing when one is
shipping something that is not a living creature.

Second there is nothing "protectionist" in these regs.
They are imposed on shipments from Canada simply because
they MUST be imposed, or the US faces charges of showing
favoritism to Canada versus other countries that want to
ship bees to the USA. 

> Canada bashing is getting to be a way of life!

Sorry, everything is not all about you.

The US had no choice in the matter, and if you had spoken
for even 5 minutes with anyone else who shipped goods from
Canada to the US, you might be able to learn a little about
how to export in the 21st Century. We can't have one set
of regulations for Canada, and another for everyone else.
No one can. We have WTO, NAFTA, and a pile of other trade
agreements, and none of them really work for the unique case
of shipping live bees. If you'd like to "fix it", I'd love
to help, but first you have to learn a bit about how the
current regulations work (and don't work well for bees).

When the US wants to "bash Canada", it is easy enough for one
of our hockey teams to take away the Stanley Cup for yet another
year. As I recall, last year it was a team from Florida, where
the skating rinks have to be painstakingly hand-assembled from
individual ice cubes ordered from room service. That must have
really hurt, eh?









If any bee producers in Canada want to get
serious about shipping bees, I am happy to
assist them - Lord knows I've done my homework
on this issue just to write articles about
the whole mess. 

Some Buckfast bees that were closer to the
actual "Brother Adam" Buckfast bees would be
nice to have for many people, and the cold-tolerant
bees are very useful to beekeepers in the
Northern tier of US states.

But I can't help anyone who is so misinformed
to think that this was some sort of deliberate
plan to "bash Canada".


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## Fusion_power

jfischer, If you will post the exact requirements to the best of your understanding and if you will assist in getting at least one queen producer in Canada set up to ship to the U.S. that is.

For my part, I will apply for an import license to bring a small number of Buckfast queens into the U.S. this year.

Are you up to it?

Fusion (you can contact me through my website http://www.selectedplants.com/)


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## dp

For those of you looking for Buckfast bees, here is a name I ran across. Phil Kurkoski Apiaries, 2472 Hidden Valley Lane, Stillwater,MN 55082 Phone-(651) 439-8051. I do not know if he is still beekeeping. I got this from the following link Http://eppserver.ag.utk.edu/bees/test/packageproducer.html# If he is in business I would like to requeen my hives this fall with Buckfast.


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## Jim Fischer

> jfischer, If you will post the exact requirements 
> to the best of your understanding and if you will 
> assist in getting at least one queen producer in 
> Canada set up to ship to the U.S. that is.

But you are not in Canada, are you?

Are you thinking of trying to become an "importer"?
Most exporters would simply ship direct to the
beekeeper ordering the queens, and would not
want to deal with a "middleman".

Anyway, the requirements are not something you can
satisfy. As a prospective importer, you are on
the receiving end, and it is the producer in
Canada who must provide certifications, get
testing done by qualified inspectors, set up
tracking and record-keeping for periodic
inspections, etc.

In short, the party who has the mating nucs
is the one that must do the paperwork, and
must be able to prove that the claims made
in the paperwork are both accurate and truthful
when audited or inspected.


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## Fusion_power

I understood that jfischer, I do in fact know at least one "qualified" queen producer in Canada. I also know one person in aphis who is an inspector at a port of entry for the U.S. I also know one person who is tied into the effort in the Canadian government to achieve compliance with all the many recently implemented "rules" albeit she is more interested in the plant and seed related aspects. It wouldn't take much to put something in place to make this feasible and workable!

I am asking you to provide a short sweet list here on this forum of the requirements for the queen producer and details on what I as a queen importer must do. I don't need many queens in the first place. If beekeepers are to be saddled with riding this horse, I figure we might as well get a bridle on him.

An example of what I need:

Who has to inspect the bees at the queen producers end?
What specific pests/diseases should they look for?
How often do they have to be inspected (presume monthly shipments to the U.S.)?
What are the valid "port of entry" locations with an aphis inspector?

From my end, how do I apply for an import license?
Who would I send it to?
Put names, people, and places into this discussion.

Fusion


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## Jim Fischer

Sorry, I said I would be happy to help Canadian
queen producers. I did not say I would write a 
book-length plain English translation of the
regulations and how-to guide, certainly not on
a Sunday night with at least 10, maybe 12 dinner
guests arriving in a few hours, and about 
eleventy-dozen things I need to do in the kitchen.

Here's the basic regs, if you want to do your
homework so that you can ask some more specific
questions.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2004_register&docid=fr21oc04-1
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2004_register&docid=fr21oc04-1.pdf


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## Fusion_power

Ok, I read the rules and restrictions. Here are a few of the answers.

1. The beekeeper must submit a notification of arrival (section 322.7) containing:
a. my name, address, phone number.
b. receiving apiary name, address, phone number.
c. producers name, address, phone number.
d. name of the port of arrival which MUST be staffed by an APHIS inspector.
e. expected date of arrival at the port.
f. species name being imported (Apis Mellifera for honeybees)
g. description of items being imported (queen bees, packages, nest boxes)
h. total number of organisms being imported.

The notification of arrival must be submitted by one of the following means:
by mail to
Permit Unit,
PPQ, APHIS
4700 River Road Unit 133
Riverdale, MD 20737-1236

or by fax to:
(301) 734-8700

or by email to:
[email protected]


On the producers end, the requirement for Canada will be that the bees to be shipped into the U.S. must be inspected within 10 days prior to shipment and must be certified free of undesirable germplasm, tracheal mites, varroa mites, and other pests and diseases. There are particular sections specifying that the bees must be produced from germplasm that was produced in that region in other words no queens produced from drone semen from Africa, etc. The bees must be accompanied by an export certificate issued by the appropriate regulatory body of the country of origin.

There is quite a bit more and what I have written is a synopsis so don't take it as complete. Read the original.

Fusion


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## Michael Bush

I know it costs me $150 to get inspected. And I only do it once a year. If I had to spend a half day getting inpected and pay for it every 10 days it would not be worth it at all for me to sell queens. And that is regardless of all the other restrictions. For something that is barely worth while as it is, any restrictions can make it not worth it.

As for diseases and pests, what do they have in Canada that we don't already have? Nothing! And if they did, you can't convince the bees to stay on their side of the border anyway.


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## loggermike

What goes around comes around as they say.The Canadian border closure wreaked havoc on US queen producers.This closure stayed in effect long after it should have been lifted.So the Canadians should quit whining and suck it up!


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## Jim Fischer

> I know it costs me $150 to get inspected...

Ah, but you forget a basic point. The WTO SPS
guidelines are amazingly vague about who is a
qualified to be an inspector, and don't say
if that person is a state inspector, a federal
inspector, or merely certified as "qualified"
by some, as yet unnamed certification agency.

Right off the bat, we can conclude that the
existing state-level inspectors in the USA
are NOT inherently qualified, even though they
are the sole issuers of "health certificates"
for interstate shipments (within the USA).
Why? Because the WTO does not even recognize
state (or provincial) disease and pest services
as "valid". They speak only of a "National
Authority", which in the USA, would mean APHIS,
which has zero people assigned to work on bees,
and cannot claim to be a valid "National Authority"
due to a lack of staff, funding, and charter.

Some people might look at this, and think that
the US can't export until the federal government
creates a "bee group" within APHIS, but even
they would lack the ability to claim that they
were qualified to inspect a single hive and
certify it as "disease free". What possible
use would a degree in entomology be in hive
inspection? It's like asking a person with
a electrical engineering degree to wire your
house - maybe he would do it properly, but
an EE degree does not include any training
on how to wire a 3-way switch or properly
ground a service entrance panel, let alone
teach "craftsmanship" issues. An electrician's
license has nothing to do with an EE degree.

So, what does this mean? I think it means that
individual bee breeders can stand up and state
that they ARE qualified, that they have studied
the text books, and studied the SPS guidelines,
and are therefore qualified to SELF-CERTIFY
until someone comes along with a certification
and training program. Most bee producers would
be well within their rights to claim that they
are more knowledgeable and have more hands-on
experience that the bulk of the bee inspectors
currently employed by the states.

This is just one tiny little tidbit example
of how one needs to look at these rules, and
my intent is to sell my services at laughably
low prices to any and all bee breeders who need
to slog through this junk and ship some darn bees.

You see chaos and brick walls. I see the
opportunity to raise the bar, and force an
admission that larger bee producers have
part-time teenage employees who are better
equipped to inspect for diseases than most
of the inspectors currently on state payrolls.

I'll say it again - nobody wanted to hinder the
ability of beekeepers in the northern tier of
states from buying Canadian bees, but the WTO
rules are not just "twisted", they are completely
broken when you try and apply them to bees.

And the only way to "fix it", is to negotiate
with people who don't even yet realize that bees
are "international trade goods".

How do I know all this crud? I've been working
on this issue for years, and I've had time to
learn the details, look at other export operations,
and talk to the people who came up with these
regulations.


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## franc

I think the Canadian border closed because US queen breeders and packages were bringing mites into the Country ...now whats come around is if you want mite resistance bees that winter and don't have AHB genes you need to get them from Canada.Look at Hawaii they don't and haven't allowed imports for the same reason that Canada closed its borders.Look how many billions of dollars mites have caused the beekeekers to lose can you really blame the Canadian Goverment.


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## loggermike

Cant blame anyone for looking out for their own interests.My point is that after both mites became widespread in Canada,the closure looked like it was hurting Canadian honey production more than it was helping,particularly in the western provinces.

>now whats come around is if you want mite resistance bees that winter and don't have AHB genes you need to get them from Canada.

You dont really believe that do you?!!


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## franc

No I don't believe that totally,I don't think AHB would be a big problem in Canada....but SHB could start showing up more now that the borders are opened.I basicly said that because Id like to get a few Buckfast Queens from Canada and it looks like it could be a regulation,paper work nitemare.Weavers might have improved their breeding program and Id buy from them again I have bought good queens from them before so I don't know whats going on there.


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## Beemaninsa

buckbee wrote:
"I believe that Weavers are the only Buckfast breeder in the USA registered with us - let me know if anyone else is claiming to supply them."

Do the registars of Buckfast bees do any type of certification or inspection of their certified breeders? Virtually all post I have read indicate that beekeepers have a history of problems with defensive Buckfast bees purchased in Texas. I understand Buckfast bees to be famous for their gentle behavior. Does something seem wrong?


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## TwT

does buckfast abbey have a web site? I would still like to know why more people dont deal with buckfast abbey to get these bee's to raise and sell beside the weavers, I'm sure people would but why don't they is what i want to know ,is it against the law or something, is it that buckfast abbey will not sell to anyone but the weavers, any info would be good, shoot, I'm wanting to start raising a few queens next year and would love to get some queens from them that wouldn't tear your butt up after the second generation.


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## wilde

This is the website of Buckfast Abbey:
http://www.buckfast.org.uk/ 

My Buckfast queens are imported from Denmark: Keld Brandstrup. Untill now there are no obstructions by the Dutch gouvernement. I presume you cannot import from Denmark without many inspections and regulations?
Albert de Wilde, Netherlands


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## buckbee

We don't have any inspection process that I've ever heard of. I think there was an 'informal' system of royalties paid to the Abbey - at least when Bro. Adam was around - but I have no idea what 'controls' - if any - were in place. I will ask Peter Donovan about this when I next see him. 

My understanding is that we are not allowed to export bees - queens or otherwise. I don't know if or why why the (presumably EC) rules appear to be different for Denmark. 

You will find the Buckfast Abbey web site of historical interest only regarding beekeeping. I am planning to put up a new site soonish with some up-to-date pictures.


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## Todd Zeiner

Thanks for the update Buckbee. We need to get you over 30 posts on this site so you can be a "Member" instead of a "Junior Member"!! Thanks Again.


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## Pugs

I'll say we need to get you past that magic number. I'm a member now and I don't even have any hives yet! I talk to much.

Pugs


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## Michael Bush

>I talk to much.

Participation is what makes a board like this work.


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