# Ultra Bee/ pollen sub question



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I am in northern NY and I don't use the same products (I feed Dadant winter patty, if needed, until the middle of March, then I add Global 15% protein patty from then on. This is the same stuff I've used before here. ) But, I still had a slightly similar situation

This year, right at the end of March (the first weekend of April, actually) we had a sudden reversal of what had been an otherwise very warm winter and very early onset of the spring season. It was marked by increased stores consumption over the winter (bees ate more than usual over the winter) and with very early natural pollen availability. 

That came to screeching halt here on April 4th when we suddenly dropped to single digits over night and no good flying weather for about 10-days to two weeks. (I had doubled up on the added chow beforehand, which was lucky as it kept me from having to open the hives during the Big Chill. They ate all I had added in.)

Since it has warmed up again I am finally working through my hives, and although they are strong and healthy, the brood pattern is very different from "normal". At first it puzzled, and concerned me, especially as it happened that two of the first hives I looked at were my oldest queens (starting their fourth season with me).

There were small outer-ring patches of capped brood, but the central the brood area was not the usual wall-to-wall capped slabs I would have expected. It's more open, with some immature-ish larvae here and there and some middle-sized white grubs. When I examined it closely, what I saw was a reassuring. My queens had been super busy over the first days of the warm-up, laying eggs in everything that passes for a cell, even up into the corners of the frames. If I go back in those first-examined colonies in a week or so, I'm sure it will be wall-to-wall capped brood, just like I was expecting.

My bees are just mutts so not a strain that is particularly known for starting and stopping brood, but this year's extreme weather was extreme enough to get their attention and they apparently did simply call a halt to egg laying for a week or two which created this odd sense that the hives were not building up properly. While this pause may have consequences down the road in forager populations, I think that over all it will be fine. Perhaps it's the same thing you're seeing. 

When I first started overhauling the hives last week I was not sure what to make of it, but over the last four or five days, as I have worked through the others (including some other older queens) I am seeing a reassuring return to a normal, strong brood pattern. 

Hope that's what's up with your bees, too.

Enjambres


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## MNV28 (Jan 27, 2010)

swarm_trapper said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> A question for for some of the pollen sub experts around here. I kept 200 hives up in Michigan this winter and started feeding them the ultra bee patties Mid Feb kept a steady diet on them about a pound every 10 days to two weeks.
> 
> ...



Hi Nick,
I think you may have started feeding a pollen patty a bit to early for MI. In my experience I do not want my bees brooding up in Feb, now this can change depending on where you are at in the country, I happen to be in Northern WI. I like to use a winter patty (sugar patty) until mid March or early April, then I start hitting them with protein and pollen to get my queen to start laying at a faster rate. When i have had early brood I always seem to run into problems, honestly I don't know why but that has been my experience.


Chris 

Chris


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

In my experience with cold weather feeding, it is really hard to push the bees using pollen sub. It is more than just food... To grow bees, you need food, water, warm temps, and "waste management", what goes in must come out. Provided outside temps are not too cold, you may get a little jump on the season by feeding early, but it is often difficult to predict the weather too much in advance. My best results for colony growth in a northern environment come when bees naturally start growing then I pour the resources to them. This means sub, syrup, whatever they need.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Beekeeping is like being a crop farmer.
Looking at the weather to decide what to do next. 
Every year I try to go with the flow in order to know what
to do. Pushing them too early or too late will cost you in the
long run. I'll go with the weather first! Try mega that's what I use all these time.


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## Brian Suchan (Apr 6, 2005)

How are the Florida bees taking the same patties?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> In my experience with cold weather feeding, it is really hard to push the bees using pollen sub. It is more than just food... To grow bees, you need food, water, warm temps, and "waste management", what goes in must come out. Provided outside temps are not too cold, you may get a little jump on the season by feeding early, but it is often difficult to predict the weather too much in advance. My best results for colony growth in a northern environment come when bees naturally start growing then I pour the resources to them. This means sub, syrup, whatever they need.


x2


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Brian Suchan said:


> How are the Florida bees taking the same patties?


The bees in FL were on a honey flow so they didn't need the patties.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

JSL said:


> In my experience with cold weather feeding, it is really hard to push the bees using pollen sub. It is more than just food... To grow bees, you need food, water, warm temps, and "waste management", what goes in must come out. Provided outside temps are not too cold, you may get a little jump on the season by feeding early, but it is often difficult to predict the weather too much in advance. My best results for colony growth in a northern environment come when bees naturally start growing then I pour the resources to them. This means sub, syrup, whatever they need.


Thanks Joe! 
The bees were still able to fly for an hour or two most of the last month just too cold for them to get pollen. I figured that the Sub should build them Just like The guys in CA that have nothing coming in all winter. Our Temps of course are colder but still. 
Lol guess I'm just thinking that some day we should have a complete and Balanced sub that could take the place of pollen I know head in the clouds stuff lol. Thanks for all the replies guys


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

swarm_trapper said:


> I figured that the Sub should build them Just like The guys in CA that have nothing coming in all winter. Our
> Lol guess I'm just thinking that some day we should have a complete and Balanced sub that could take the place of pollen I know head in the clouds stuff lol.


I guess it all depends where the clouds are.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> I guess it all depends where the clouds are.


Exactly! I feel that there should be a sub out there that can do this. Maybe some day Keith when you get sick of the hassle of loading full semi's of Sub and want to ship pallets I can get my head out of the clouds lol, Cause the stuff I'm using now isn't cutting it. 
Nick
P.S. Keith heard good things from my FL Friends about Nutra Bee this year.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Nick, Keith has some nice vids on YouTube about his methods, luckily for me Keith doesn't mind me picking up some 50lb boxes, stuff works great!


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## Sadler91 (Nov 6, 2011)

swarm_trapper said:


> Exactly! I feel that there should be a sub out there that can do this. Maybe some day Keith when you get sick of the hassle of loading full semi's of Sub and want to ship pallets I can get my head out of the clouds lol, Cause the stuff I'm using now isn't cutting it.
> Nick
> P.S. Keith heard good things from my FL Friends about Nutra Bee this year.


:thumbsup:


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry, where are you hiding the bus at?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Oh Keith I think you look for that bus lol


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

Swarm_Trapper,

Thank you for posting. I have been feeding "Ultra" since mid March. The bees were using it almost as fast as I could open feed it. On April 14 they totally stopped and haven't touched it since then. I parked my stool to the side of the entrances and observed that about one out of three incoming foragers were laden with bright yellow pollen. I would assume that they will only use the supplement when and if they need or want it. Our neighbor raises cattle and he mentioned that the bees were feeding on his "corn-barley" cattle feed up until about the same date. I thought they were after the sugars in the feed but I wonder if it was the 18% protein? The brood is just now starting to really expand. I am located at 6000 ft in the mid Utah desert and we experience weather extremes. My experience this year sounds a lot like what you experienced. I think I would still feed the pollen substitute early if I had it to do over again. I really like "Ultra". It looks to me like it is a gamble to build early or run the risk of getting "chill brood" and setting them back.

"When you are robbing a train, you can rob it any want to." 

Thanx, LP


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ian said:


> Oh Keith I think you look for that bus lol


I do, even ole Jean-Marc was down here this week.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> I do, even ole Jean-Marc was down here this week.


:thumbsup:


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I had a good time there Keith. Thanks for showing me around. It was an investment in myself. I am glad I did it. It will open doors for me.

To Nick, I would say you started to early. You took a nice box of bees that were still settled in for winter, you started feeding them and they tried to turn it into brood. The temperatures are still cold and the nutrition is less than adequate, so it does not favour brood rearing. By feeding them you turned them on, but Nature is not helping them. They likely set a frame and a half of brood, then your 10 frames of bees invest the last of their lives for the next generation. Conditions are poor to facilitate the process and the original 10 frames becomes 5 frames after you start stimulating them, some 4-5 weeks later. COnditions have to be good enough so that the 10 frames of bees set 3 good sized patches of brood, so that the 10 frames of winter bees more or less turns itself over into 10 frames of young bees... 7 will do, but from the bees perspective getting as close as possible to the starting population is important. That first generation is so critical to a beekeeping operation's financial success. It is real easy to mess that one up. It is better to hang back a bit then go full tilt once Nature helps a bit. I messed up that first generation many a time but now we are way better with it.

Jean-Marc


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

jean-marc said:


> I had a good time there Keith. Thanks for showing me around. It was an investment in myself. I am glad I did it. It will open doors for me.
> 
> To Nick, I would say you started to early. You took a nice box of bees that were still settled in for winter, you started feeding them and they tried to turn it into brood. The temperatures are still cold and the nutrition is less than adequate, so it does not favour brood rearing. By feeding them you turned them on, but Nature is not helping them. They likely set a frame and a half of brood, then your 10 frames of bees invest the last of their lives for the next generation. Conditions are poor to facilitate the process and the original 10 frames becomes 5 frames after you start stimulating them, some 4-5 weeks later. COnditions have to be good enough so that the 10 frames of bees set 3 good sized patches of brood, so that the 10 frames of winter bees more or less turns itself over into 10 frames of young bees... 7 will do, but from the bees perspective getting as close as possible to the starting population is important. That first generation is so critical to a beekeeping operation's financial success. It is real easy to mess that one up. It is better to hang back a bit then go full tilt once Nature helps a bit. I messed up that first generation many a time but now we are way better with it.
> 
> Jean-Marc


That does seem like that is what I did live and learn Thanks Guys!


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