# I am thinking about switching to all deeps



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I add handle cleats to all boxes regardless of size. They definitely help alleviate some of the weight problems with deeps. Using deeps for honey supers gets you the best drawn combs, makes for a stock of combs for expansion, makes for stronger colonies because bees love deeper combs, and makes for bigger crops with less handling. I use both deeps and mediums to get the best of both worlds. No need to always go one way or the other when you can walk on both sides of the street.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Some locations with less than stellar flows may result in thin honey frames, half filled honey frames, half filled boxes, etc. My feeling is that
they are limited to the main bloom in these areas and require impeccable timing in order to harvest nice full frames and a full box of honey.

Now-a-days an argument for switching to shallows to capture each and every flow could be made as the boxes and frames would be full and fat and give the bees the opportunity to fill the comb and cap it on marginal flows in marginal areas. Just like the old gray mare aint what she used to be, neither are many forage areas.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Thank You Clyde and Frank,

I was ordering 10 hive set ups for expansion at the farm yard next year. I WAS going to go with all deep supers but after reading both of your posts decided that I still will go with deeps, just not go "all in". I'll give the deeps a shot on a few hives and see how it goes. if not so well, then they can easily become brood boxes elsewhere. Thank you both for 2 very helpful responses.


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

It's absolutely a good idea for you to test this in the coming season on just a few colonies so you can be sure that you can handle the weight, etc., effectively. A lot of folks have gone the opposite direction because of that...we're all mediums now except for one colony that refuses to vacate the single deep on the bottom of the stack. But since it's on the bottom...no big deal. My spouse, who is the primary Beek in the house wouldn't be able to lift a deep full of honey for sure and to be honest, I'd be hard pressed to be happy doing it either.  Such is life as we age...


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

> Such is life as we age...


come on Jim. I am only 45. I am young and invincible... as I walk up stairs and my knees sound like they are made of gram crackers and saran wrap.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I run all 10 frame deeps and I'm 65 just saying. Days I'm just not feeling so chipper I pull a couple frames out to lighten it up.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

I switched a few from double deeps to a single deep/medium. I won't have any results until next summer. Heavy doesn't bother me, although my knees sound just like yours and I'm 48. I noticed last summer they were building and filling the 2nd deep at the expense of filling the supers on top. I'm hoping that the single deep/medium will encourage them to store more for me.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Medium supers FULLY drawn, filled and capped, wall to wall are already too heavy in my opinion.
The weight isn't the total problem, but rather the load center distance.
If the weight was a barbell it wouldn't be so bad, but it's not.
You have to reach out and lift at an awkward distance from your body.
I helped an older beekeeper pull his honey last year that were all deeps.
He keeps only 4 hives.
Absolutely BACK BREAKING, ridiculously heavy lifting. Insane abuse on your body.
I suggest that you try it on one honey yard.
On second thought, just a few pallets.
Common sense will bring you back around to westerns, I'm quite sure.
Have fun!


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

When I end up with a deep super, I take a deep 5 frame nuc with a screwed on plywood bottom board, and unload 5 frames into it, and 5 into another, then I move the deep box off (or not, I may just go extract, pop the lid and drop them back in). Last time I lifted a deep full of honey from a height that was above my waist, I could not handle the weight


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm 68 (almost 69) and a "girl" . And I run all 10-frame deeps.

Like the all-medium enthusiasts here, I like having all one size of box. But I just like the larger boxes.

My only site is apparently quite productive (I have never had any other, so I have nothing to compare it with) because most of my hives need five deeps on their stacks to feel comfy in the summer. Occasionally one will make do with just four (usually in the last year of a queen's life.) They all are snuggled up in three deeps for the winter. I keep a medium underneath the deep broodboxes for the bees to use as a pollen box, but I rarely do anything with that box - they manage it entirely on their own.

I can easily manage to lift the deeps up to a bit above waist height. After that, I simply remove frames before lifting the boxes. I keep a deep box on a temp base close at hand when I'm working my bees.

If I get so I can't handle them (even by removing boxes to move them) I would look at some kind of mechanically-assisted box lifter. Since I only have one yard, and it is reasonably close to 110 v ac power, I'm hoping that will work.

The biggest problem I have is that stacks this tall require some kind of raised scaffold to work safely. I have taken some nasty spills, bees 'n boxes 'n me, together, when I stumble going up and down my stepladder from the scaffold.

Nancy


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I don't know about anybody else, but I think odfrank needs more and bigger screws!

( but really his stuff always looks good)


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

My brood boxes are all 10 frame deep and operate both mediums and deep honey supers. I think it would be good for you to try a couple of deep honey super configurations and determine if it is for you or not. 

The mediums are really even depth comb and bees do not mess the depth up much when wet combs are returned to the hives. Looks quite nice and easy to uncap with a fork.

I think one gets more honey with deep frames and not as many frames to handle to get same amount of honey.

The maximun I run my hives is a total of five deeps, two broods and three honey. During the peak of the flow, this means pulling a honey super every four days. Take the bottom deep honey super and install the wet super on the top. I'll do that over running a hive eight super hive. Never complain about too much honey! 

With medium honey supers, I operate with four honey supers and extract as needed to keep open storage space.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We have been running only deeps since deeps where invented. Pay no attention to those beekeeping for EXACTLY one year less that us, he he he.

Crazy Roland
Linden apiary, est. 1852


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I started out using all deeps and intended to stick with them. As I grew toward working bees for a living, I took a job with a commercial beekeeper in my area to learn more, faster. That first honey harvest had me loading many tons of honey into the extractors, and that was where I decided not to use deeps for honey. They were way harder to handle.

If I were staying small (less than 20 hives), I think I'd stick with all deeps. But if you want to do a lot of hives, I think the deeps get to be a lot to move around.

Adam


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Saltybee said:


> I don't know about anybody else, but I think odfrank needs more and bigger screws!
> 
> ( but really his stuff always looks good)


I am glad that I built sturdy since I started 48 years ago. If I hadn't, even more would go into the debris box then does today.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

I'm still trying to hit my stride with this bee thing. Every year its something new thats an issue. I run double deeps and shallow supers. This year i harvested the fall flow as my supers were packed and i was worried about back filling in early September. However the weather turned cold quickly and the bees did not suck down syrup fast enough to fill the deeps to capacity. 
Thought i would have loved to have 3 deeps on and then i could have moved any empties from below or given to other hives that were light and saved the trouble of feeding. can't put shallow frames in a deep. might try keeping the shallows for spring and summer and putting on just deeps for fall flow.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Using deeps may be doable now, but the wear and tear on your body may not be worth it. I went all mediums for uniform frames.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have been meditating on different methods I may use as a workaround to not lifting deeps any more. A few incidents dealing with the weight of them plus now lining up for hernia surgery is telling me that denial is not going to make the issue go away.

I did make up a hive lift that will lift off one or more hive bodies or the stack of supers to install an excluder or the blockers for doing OA with the supers on. I mostly use it for changing out a solid bottom board for a screened sticky board without tearing down the stack.

A major problem with it is that it is slow to set up or move but for a few hives it would enable someone handicapped to manage.

It was no original thinking on my part since WWW put me up to it and we both made our own renditions of something he picked off a U tube video. The lift comes from a worm gear boat winch which makes it effortless.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your experiences and opinions. I'm glad I put this out there before I went and ordered all new equipment. I am still going ahead with trying deep supers on a few hives but I have a feeling I will not be using them exclusively. Thanks again all!

todd


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

We run out of deep frames we stick a medium in there. The bees draw comb on the bottom 3 inches. Easy to take off when you come back to the yard with frames. In our yards this year the humidity or something was going on that kept the deeps from being capped as quick as usual. The mediums were no problem. The two brood boxes are just that and we never take honey from them. If a deep needs some honey we give them mediums if that's all we can spare. Hate the 90 pound deeps of honey and the young guys get to pull them.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Todd, Keep the number for your chiropractor on the fridge. You might need it this spring.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I've flip-flopped on this subject over the years. I started out with deeps for brood and mediums for honey. I then went to all deeps (brood and honey), and now I learning more towards deeps for brood and mediums for honey. Of course 10-frame boxes. A maxed out honey-bound deep is heavy. I can manage the weight, but there's less margin to recover from a slip, or other misstep. I also find that mediums run through my extraction equipment better. I definitely prefer deeps for brood.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Another thought. If doing all deeps, how about 8 frame boxes, spaced 7 in the honey supers. The weight may be manageable. The problem with lifting deep honey supers is the weight distribution. As mentioned before, handles can help some. However, you are still holding your arms wide, which interacts with your back differently.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Medium supers FULLY drawn, filled and capped, wall to wall are already too heavy in my opinion.
> The weight isn't the total problem, but rather the load center distance.
> If the weight was a barbell it wouldn't be so bad, but it's not.
> You have to reach out and lift at an awkward distance from your body.
> ...


+1 A full medium is 50 pounds, at chin height with your arms straight out in front of you! I was double deeps and medium supers, so I never had to pick up a deep that was higher than my waist and never had to pick up the bottom. But I kept running into different frame size problems and decided to go all mediums. I only replaced deeps as I lost a hive, still have one deep out of 14 hives. Went to all medium nucs so the frame size problem wouldn't continue there either. 
One of the best bee keeping decisions I've every made. Many thanks to Mr. Bush....


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## HiveBeetle (Mar 26, 2017)

I run all deeps. I have a few mediums that I bought to try, but nowadays I only use them if I run out of deeps. 
The only advantage to mediums is the weight. 
Harvesting mediums is the same amount of work in the honey house with quite a bit less honey per frame. It’s not worth it to me. 
I try to be as efficient as possible. Less work + more honey= Me happy.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I love deeps but my wife says if the honey supers stay deeps I am losing my best honey helper. Mediums for honey I guess.... Seriously I am sure making the switch will aid my back in years to come.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Over the years I went from Deeps and Shallows to Deeps and Mediums to All Deeps to all Mediums and finally to all 8 frame mediums. I'm happy with 8 frame mediums. The weight is closer to your body and the boxes never weigh more than 50 pounds and the frames are all interchangeable. Also the boxes are the same volume as a 5 frame deep so one 8 frame medium makes a decent nuc. Especially if you start out with a medium frame feeder...


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

As a young man I began with standard set up (Deeps, Mediums, shallows) as a 'bee-haver' for several years (Didn't have to do much back then), then went to all mediums (and TF) around 2007 (thanks to MB and other's), but still have/use some deeps (mainly for nucs, swarm catchers, transfer boxes), but after using all 'the same' sized boxes, its usually a pain to go back to mixed sizes IMO. 

The simplicity same sized boxes (regardless of size selected) offers our small yard has been a great reward work wise, and we've not experienced any alleged detriments after more than 10 years. TBH; I wish we'd discovered 8 frame boxes sooner, I would have gone that direction.

As beekeeping has evolved so have our methods for keeping them alive.....honey harvesting taking a back seat for nearly a decade now with an ever-increasing effort toward assisting bees (ala Tom Seely) rather than keeping/having bees. 

Harvesting honey has become more like fishing has always been for me. The experience of being on the water is more than enough....catching fish is a bonus  Just as spending time with my head inside a box of 'living' bees is enough, and honey the bonus.


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## blainenay (Oct 14, 2011)

trottet1 said:


> ....Can I get some opinions on the pros and cons from those who have actually used all deeps or are currently using all deeps.


I've used nothing but ten-frame deeps since the early 60s. Mom insisted my first hive go on the roof so my siblings wouldn't get stung. Yes, as a 12-year-old, I toted full supers down a ladder for harvesting. I no longer think that's a good idea :no:

I like standardized equipment because it enables me to easily put resources/brood where I want it. Hence, I've always stuck with deeps.

That said, I've never bought a nuc, so I've never had a really good reason for deeps other than that's what most beekeepers use. Now that I'm days away from age 70, I wish everything were mediums -- maybe even 8-frame mediums.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

> Now that I'm days away from age 70...


Happy birthday! Thanks for sharing your experience and opinion on this.


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## smsmkiwi (May 21, 2017)

trottet1 said:


> come on Jim. I am only 45. I am young and invincible... as I walk up stairs and my knees sound like they are made of gram crackers and saran wrap.


Ha! My knees have done that for 30 years. Keep going, you are invincible!


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

odfrank said:


> I add handle cleats to all boxes regardless of size. They definitely help alleviate some of the weight problems with deeps.


I did the same. The difference it makes is significant. The handle cleats allow you to grip the box closer to your center of gravity which is a big part of it.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

No question that the cleats do make picking up the boxes much easier. More than a few of us have arthritis problems in our hands in addition to backs, hips and knees. The cleats do create and issue though with winter wrapping.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

So, all you guys are much more mechanically inventive than I am.

But what about making up some kind of "install-able cleat" that can be applied around the box to be lifted, fitting itself in the existing handholds and securing itself with some kind of cam or quick ratchet device.

Slap it on, lock it, move the box, remove, and then move another box. 

I'd give it a try if such a thing was available. Although the weight of a deep is daunting, it's also the slender grip one has to maintain which distracts from the simple heave-ho effort. 

I would like to see more plans and pictures for Crofter's gizmo, too.

Nancy


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

See if this link works to get you to my photobucket. There are more photos there during construction and use of the hive lift. The hive body engaging clamps and spreader bar work OK but the whole assembly is a bit awkward to move colony to colony. It 


http://s655.photobucket.com/user/Tijean_photo/library/?sort=3&page=1


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## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

Nancy, your post got me thinking you were talking about a couple sticks hooked together with a strap of leather belt (maybe nail an actual belt to two pieces of wood). The leather belt would be on the opposite side from you and the two 'sticks' would have a metal plate extending up at an angle (think like a nail driven diagonally through the stick, but maybe the plate could be put in a diagonal slot) to hook into the handle so that upward force causes it to grip into the handles. 

You walk up to the hive, lower the 'belt' over the hive and lift up while pushing slightly into the box till it engaged but then allowing you a larger gripping surface. Setting the box down the handle would fall off of course except if you continued the belt around but I think that would just make it difficult to use as you would have to stop and 'lock' it each time. But saying that, maybe putting it on each time you lift would be just as hard. 

Simple to make, but would it help? I can't tell as it's winter and all my hives are pushed together and wrapped. But I also don't have an issue 'YET' lifting the deeps. You do have an interesting thought though that should be explored. 

But speaking of winter... We have had quite a bit of sub freezing and sub zero F nights so have been 'missing' the bees. Was nice to see today it got up to 32F and the bees were cleaning house. Spent an hour watching them carrying wax cappings out and the occasional dead bee along with painting the snow.


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## mdm2255 (Oct 23, 2018)

trottet1 said:


> Can those who have used or are using all deeps give a little input on this? I currently run double deep brood boxes and medium supers. I keep running into issues where I run out of deep brood chambers and frames, but staring at a few drawn out mediums that are not in use. I want to standardize but not go to all mediums. I imagine that the weight of the deep "supers" will be the main issue and I think that at this point in my life I can deal with it. I am only 45 and don't have any physical limitations as of yet (maybe switching to all deeps will change that  ).
> 
> I figure as I get older or develop some limitations, It shouldn't be too difficult to go back to deep brood and medium supers.
> 
> ...


I don't see the problem with using deep supers...I hear folks concerns regarding the weight of full deep super, but I would just remove the frames individually and not try to pick up the entire box. I am 63 and when I want to inspect both of my deep boxes, I remove the frames to an extra box that I bring to the hive to use as a "holder" so I can get all the way down to the bottom brood chamber. I am new to bee keeping so may be unaware of why this may not be the best practice. I have a double chamber hive as you describe but am researching maintaining single chamber hives with medium honey supers...if my colony makes it through the winter!


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Welcome and good luck with winter. What's your climate?


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> Some locations with less than stellar flows may result in thin honey frames, half filled honey frames, half filled boxes, etc. My feeling is that
> they are limited to the main bloom in these areas and require impeccable timing in order to harvest nice full frames and a full box of honey.
> 
> Now-a-days an argument for switching to shallows to capture each and every flow could be made as the boxes and frames would be full and fat and give the bees the opportunity to fill the comb and cap it on marginal flows in marginal areas. Just like the old gray mare aint what she used to be, neither are many forage areas.


I have the same feelings about using shallows.Also The best lumber I get to build boxes only comes in 1x12's so I have a ton of wasted wood making mediums.I can get two shallows from each cut but have to add a small 1/4" strip to one of them.But then I have that strip left over from making deeps that I cut that strip from.Then whats left then is used to make cleats for the sides of the boxes for easier handling.When you get 69 years old and a bad back those shallows sure work out better.Oh and years ago I did run all deeps and I liked it back then.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

mdm2255 said:


> ...but I would just remove the frames individually and not try to pick up the entire box.... I am new to bee keeping so may be unaware of why this may not be the best practice.


It will probably become more clear when you get into brood inspections with multiple supers on the hives. In the spring and early summer months I usually have 3 to 4 medium honey supers above the brood boxes. This would equate to at least two extra deeps for honey supers, above double deep brood boxes. 

If I have limited time available with a row of 10 hives that need brood boxes inspected, the supers will need to be removed first on each hive to get down into the brood boxes. Three mediums filled with honey can be quickly removed and placed to the side to allow inspection of the brood nest. I'm 63 as well, and no longer have the desire to be hefting around honey filled deep supers. Yes, I could remove individual frames first to lighten the boxes, but the time required to work through multiple hives would at least double. It wouldn't really matter too much with just a few hives, but with several hives in two different yards, time management for me is important.

It's not that I don't enjoy spending time in the beeyard, but certain times of the year I need to get in and out quickly. Springtime, particularly before and during swarm season, I need to get through all of my hives fairly quickly on a regular basis. With my day job work load and other family responsibilities my available free time in the field is limited. Everyone has their individual circumstances and their own way to look at this, that's just how I see it for me. No right or wrong.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

mdm2255 said:


> I don't see the problem with using deep supers...I hear folks concerns regarding the weight of full deep super, but I would just remove the frames individually and not try to pick up the entire box. I am 63 and when I want to inspect both of my deep boxes, I remove the frames to an extra box that I bring to the hive to use as a "holder" so I can get all the way down to the bottom brood chamber. I am new to bee keeping so may be unaware of why this may not be the best practice.


I use eight frame mediums. With several hives in a yard, I save time and reduce the risk of robbing by removing and stacking supers rather than frames. But this does remind me of something I heard while living in Waco 38 years ago. An agriculture professor at Texas A&M was driving down a country road and he saw a farmer in his orchard feeding his pigs by taking one pig at a time, holding it up, letting it eat an apple out of the tree, and then setting it down and picking up another pig and letting it eat an apple. So the professor pulled over and walked up to the farmer and said, "Sir, you will save time by knocking all the apples on the ground and letting the pigs eat them all at once." The farmer, confused, looked at the professor and said, "What's time to a pig?" What’s time to a bee?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>...but I would just remove the frames individually and not try to pick up the entire box.... I am new to bee keeping so may be unaware of why this may not be the best practice.

If your goal is to do a complete inspection and find the queen, the best method is to set all of the boxes off of the bottom onto another bottom. Then go through each frame as you put them back into an empty box on the stand while searching for the queen and inspecting the brood. That way the queen isn't running off down into the box and you are searching where she is most likely to be found (the bottom brood boxes) rather than the supers. Then when you find her, you can set all of the boxes back onto the original stand. If you take them out a frame at a time you disrupt everything and the queen will be running around and you won't know for sure what box she has gotten to. If you goal is merely to see if they are doing ok, then you set all the boxes off until you get to a brood box and look for some eggs. Then set the boxes back on the stand. As long as the boxes are not too heavy this is MUCH easier and faster than going through each frame. Most of my beekeeping, other than queen rearing, is "by the box" rather than "by the frame". I split by the box, I harvest by the box.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Or you can work the brood by a frame (a truly large frame) and honey supers by a box (a small frame).
The queen is said to just stay on the large frames in the bottom and never not go up.
We will see soon.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Or run a single deep brood chamber, and only have 10 frames to inspect. Since the '40's, 4 minutes is the average time to inspect a hive. 

Crazy Roland


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Yes, Crazy Roland is crazy, like a fox.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Roland said:


> Or run a single deep brood chamber, and only have 10 frames to inspect. Since the '40's, 4 minutes is the average time to inspect a hive.
> 
> Crazy Roland


What's your trick to keep the bees from swarming in the spring with a single deep brood box.


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## Outdoor N8 (Aug 7, 2015)

The best part of going all deeps; any frame anywhere.
You want to entice them up above the QE? pick a brood frame (or two) and move it up. It changes several things, thanks Roland.

The one thing I don't understand is the common answer of a deep is 90lb full. This summer I weighed so many individual 10F boxes, crammed with capped honey and burr comb and propolis; yet NONE of them went 90lb-- is this just another urban beekeeper legend? my heaviest box (with extra cleat handles) went 82lb, most averaged 72-74lb. 
Or is it just my high desert honey has a lighter sectional density?


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## couesbro (Feb 4, 2017)

Outdoor N8,

How dare you actually question common legends by actually weighing supers. Next, I suppose you are going to test to see if the earth is still flat. You may end up being tied to a stake and roasted with piles of mesquite brush for being a heretic.

Oh, by the way none of the deeps I have weighed exceeded 75 pounds.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

N8 - simple explanation - inverse square of distance between the centers of gravity. Bring those boxes to Sea Level, and boy, would they weigh more.
Keep that info about moving frames of brood under your hat. We would not want a run on QE.

Crazy Roland


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

N8 - simple explanation - inverse square of distance between the centers of gravity. Bring those boxes to Sea Level, and boy, would they weigh more.
Keep that info about moving frames of brood under your hat. We would not want a run on QE.

Crazy Roland


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