# Feeding pollen patties to encourage early brood up in overwintered colonies



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Invert sugar stays much softer than straight sucrose. Sucrose and pollen sets up like cement. A little bit of oil/crisco helps.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

That looks very intriguing, but I'm wondering why you didn't just let the bees stow the pollen inside themselves rather than harvesting it and then going to the trouble of making it into the patties, etc. I feed Global pollen sub patties starting in mid-March to add to whatever they brought in and stored on their own. I was under the impression that they ate very little pollen, or none, over the winter. I guess I'm missing something about what you're doing, and why?

Six pounds is an impressive harvest from one double deep. Makes me wonder how much my hives would have brought in as some of mine are in four deeps. I suppose it depends on your forage possibilities. Do you think it was mostly goldenrod and New England aster? Do you get that much every year?

Please post back about how it works out. I will be interested in reading about it. 

I'm having temps in the 30's on Sunday, too, but it looks like it will raining at the same time. Hope to get a chance to check on my sugar bricks.

Enj.


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## GreenWay (Mar 30, 2014)

Thank you JWC maybe I will try that for next time although they are staying nice and soft even in the freezer for over a week, maybe I got lucky. I honestly didn't have to use much syrup. I would say the patties are at least 70-80 percent pure pollen. I was unaware that six pounds was a heavy harvest for one colony in one month. We get a very heavy goldenrod flow where I am at in the fall. I was thinking of getting samples tested at beltzville national lab for pesticides to make sure the sources are mostly uncomtaminated before I collect on a large scale for selling pollen. 
EnJambres, my plan for collecting the pollen to feed back was to feed it back in late winter to simulate an early pollen flow to stimulate early brood production in the overwintered queens. I have been keeping an eye on the weather and was hoping to wait for a day approaching 50 and put the pattys on that day so that the bees will be able to break cluster and feed on the pollen and start to store it in the cells simulating a natural flow and hopefully get those mama's laying again, so that I can have more bees early for splits and honey and pollen production. And about the sources of pollen. About that I have a lot to learn the color is mostly dark orange and yellows, with some pale greys and pale greenish hints. My bees bring in so much pollen in spring and fall it is a crime not to collect it. Sometimes I observe entirely yellow bees coverened in pollen. I eat it often for health protein supplement. It is a great food source, very sweet and dry like candy, almost taste like smarties candies. I have not tasted the spring pollens yet but I hear they are a bit more sour. I was suggested by a friend that I do a controlled experiment with two colonies of similar strength. Feed one pollen and one none to see if the build up is different. I may do this. Thanks for the feedback and I will be back to post on how this is going for me in case any one else finds this usefull or interesting. Think Spring, maple trees and honey bees, how sweet it is.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

GreenWay said:


> . I would love to hear from others who have thoughts and experiences good bad and indifferent.


If you are a treatment free beekeeper, I would not try to encourage early brood up. More brood more mites. Brood rearing is a heavy burden on bees, I would like the bees to start as late as possible, by the time of willow blooming.

If you have the right kind of bees, they store enormous amounts of pollen in the lower box. Many customers have complained me that buckfast bees store too much pollen, fills the brood area completely.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Your basic theory is good but there are a couple of cons. The first is that if conditions are so cold you are testing your mix in the deep freeze, it is too cold to feed bees pollen on the grounds that they don't naturally eat it in these conditions, and if they are forced to it will make them poop which should not be encouraged in these temperatures.

Secondly, natural pollen once wet goes off pretty quick. Now it's mixed in a patty it will have to be kept stored in the deep freeze. Once fed to the bees it will need to be dealt with by the bees in just a few days. This can be encouraged by mixing plenty of sugar, and making the mix soft to the point of nearly being sloppy. I don't know how they do it, but somehow, if pollen is fed that way, bees are able to sort it out and store properly so it will not further degrade. That's assuming temperatures are high enough of course.


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## GreenWay (Mar 30, 2014)

I'm so glad to hear some more points of view from others with experience. Juhani, I understand your point and it is a very good one. This is only my 3rd season of keeping my own bees and although I work very hard and try to pay attention. I have realized major mistakes and try to adjust accordingly. Oldtimer, I appreciate your knowledge also. I went out on a limb and put those patties in the hives on sunday. It was 43 degrees here and the bees were quite active. I hope I didn't make a fatal mistake but I have been thinking about it for some weeks and my gut told me to do it. Right now it is -4 degrees here so WOW!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It's not a mistake, if the pollen goes off they just don't use it that's all, but they will get rid of it by consuming and pooping outside.

Please update how it goes.


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## Snowhitsky (Mar 1, 2014)

I have a related but different problem. Due to our benign winter climate there is rarely a shortage of pollen and the hives are usually well stocked with bee bread. Nectar is also available in enought quantity to keep the hives ticking over in the winter and most days the bees can fly to collect it. However, the queens only start laying in earnest around the end of February which means small populations of foragers during early spring (March to April) when we have orange flowers and rosemary/thyme. To make matters worse nectar sources can dry up in May/June if there is an early drought which coincides with peak population and any stored honey gets consumed.

So, the long and short of it is: given adequate supplies of pollen would feeding sugar (Lauri's bricks) induce the queen to get laying in early January?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Snowhitsky said:


> Due to our benign winter climate there is rarely a shortage of pollen and the hives are usually well stocked with bee bread. Nectar is also available in enought quantity to keep the hives ticking over in the winter


Home made patties from Ultra bee or Megabee dry sub, are 3/4 sugar (you add 35kg or sugar to 15kg of protein. They make hives take off on brood in my "benign" climate. My guess is that a rich sub will kickstart your hives for the orange blossom season. 

My bees fly everyday for exercise, but until the sub is put on, and the Euc begins in earnest they don't brood up. 

Much of the advice given is for climates where you are trying to retard the spring buildup. For our climates where spring comes early and summer drought is unrelenting, we need to hit the ground running hard to make the spring crop.


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## GreenWay (Mar 30, 2014)

Snowhitsky, thanks for chiming in. I sure hope you can get those bees kickstarted like our friends out west. I started collecting pollen last year when I bought a bottom mount sundance 3. If you can get enough bees to make orange blossom and thyme honey you will be a happy man. A friend of mine travels home to Greece every year and brings me back a bottle of Greek Thyme honey. It is so delicious and thick. The season is upon us. (almost, lol)


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

If you have hives like this two weeks before willow blooming, there is no need for patties. Make sure you are overwintering strong colonies, that is the secret for spring crop.


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## GusK (Jan 24, 2013)

Snowhitsky said:


> I have a related but different problem. Due to our benign winter climate there is rarely a shortage of pollen and the hives are usually well stocked with bee bread. Nectar is also available in enought quantity to keep the hives ticking over in the winter and most days the bees can fly to collect it. However, the queens only start laying in earnest around the end of February which means small populations of foragers during early spring (March to April) when we have orange flowers and rosemary/thyme. To make matters worse nectar sources can dry up in May/June if there is an early drought which coincides with peak population and any stored honey gets consumed.
> 
> So, the long and short of it is: given adequate supplies of pollen would feeding sugar (Lauri's bricks) induce the queen to get laying in early January?


I think I may have a similar climate to yours. Our thyme bloom, however, is in mid June to early August, so I have a different challenge.

But regarding spring buildup, feeding syrup works for me. Pollen here is in abundance practically year round and strong hives can almost fill the bottom deep with pollen by July. This year I tried feeding a hard fondant I purchased instead of giving them syrup in Feb. Bad mistake. Some hives took a long time to eat it. I also saw a lot of activity at the water source I keep near the bees. Seems to me they were short of water due to the dry nature of the sugar feeding and spent a lot of unnecessary energy on collecting water. 

Two days ago I purchased a moist fondant, 10-12% water content, and the bees went to it immediately, ignoring, if they weren't already, the dry/hard candy I bought two weeks earlier. It was such a huge difference. They piled onto the stuff, and I started removing the hard candy fondant that was already there.

Nonetheless, I think sugar syrup, 1:1 is still best. Just ventilate the hive a little if you have the humidity I do. It's not uncommon to see water dripping off the top cover in late winter, early spring. I also use insulation wrapped in plastic over the broodnest, which stays warm and stops the water/condensation from collecting over the broodnest.

I think dry sugar bricks and mountaincamp feeding are best for keeping broodless hives alive in Northern cold climates. If your bees are flying, and collecting pollen, they can take sugar syrup. You'll be surprised at how fast they start growing beginning late January with sugar syrup, which more accurately imitates a nectar flow. Keep in mind, our January/February is similar to say, Canada's March/April, or maybe a few weeks later even. We're on a different time frame, and we southern beekeepers have to figure these things out on our own, as most beekeeping books are written for Northern climates.

I have tried pollen sub in my area. But due to the abundant natural pollen, practically year-round, they barely take it, at least few hives do. Pollen sub is best for young nucs that have yet to build up a forager population. However, looking at JWChestnut's post, maybe I don't add enough sugar to the pollen sub to make it attractive. I'll try that next time.

One caveat. Our early Spring buildup, which really takes place during most others' winter, creates a longer brooding period. Many of my hives never really stop brood rearing. This in turn makes varroa management much more difficult. I have had booming hives in late March, that were only a mere 5 frames a few months earlier, and by mid April, varroa was already hitting my hives hard. I am still learning, and probably will experiment with Formic late March.

Although I have never kept bees in any other climate, I think the Mediterranean climate has many beekeeping challenges that other climates don't face. I think it may be easier to keep bees in such a warm climate, but it's more difficult to make a lot of honey, due to the mild winter-drought/on-off flows we experience and the constant varroa problem. Timing is critical for us - in terms of feeding, splitting, and treating, and I'm still experimenting. Most beekeepers I know here are happy with 20-30 lbs of thyme honey per hive. I have gotten close to 50 lbs, but not all hives, as I am constantly experimenting using different techniques with different groups of hives. This is the year I experiment less, and instead implement standard practices through-out the entire apiary. I'll see how it goes.


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## Snowhitsky (Mar 1, 2014)

Thanks JWChestnut and GusK. That's about as local advice as I'm going to get! GusK¡s line "Most beekeepers I know here are happy with 20-30 lbs" about sums up the ambition of my local beekeepers too: minimal management for personal consumption. Nothing wrong with it but I want to get the most of my static hives next year and need to plan for booming hives by the end of March. I'll give the 1:1 a go.

Varroa is indeed a problem. Some hives didn't have a brood break until December which is a little late for OA treatment. This year I will be splitting a lot to increase my apiary so between brood breaks and timely application of OA when the brood has emerged I hope to keep on top of the problem.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I tried putting pollen on them this year to get a jump (sounds like the Maritime Northwest is similar to many of the posters on this thread). I wanted to get the brood going for all of our spring flows. After blackberry (ends in June) we enter a drought that lasts until the following year. We get 3 months a year to make honey and bees.
I found that the hives that actually took the pollen were easy 200% or more the strength of the hives that let it mold on the dry sugar. I was thinking I was not consistent in mixing so this time I tried a single batch mixed in a 5 gallon bucket that I got from a Mike Palmer thread: 1 gallon of water to boil, 16 lbs sugar, I added in some white vinegar to invert the sugar (2/3 cup) and about a tablespoon of homemade HBH. 16 lbs Bee Pro (ratio was 1:1 with a 2:1 syrup). The HBH and vinegar was my adder since I read so much about it. I will let you know if it works better.
By the way I tried to give them some pollen in late summer. We have flowers (tansy, daisies and hawkweed) with pollen but no nectar. They did not take it.
I experimented with some premade subs (1/2 pound of mine with half pound of mine in the same hive as either Mann Lake preformed or Dadant AP23). 2 hives each product, side by side. Either both pollen patties of the different variety were eaten and the hive was booming or the hive was medium strength with two half pound pollen patties with mold all over it.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

enjambres said:


> That looks very intriguing, but I'm wondering why you didn't just let the bees stow the pollen inside themselves rather than harvesting it and then going to the trouble of making it into the patties, etc. I feed Global pollen sub patties starting in mid-March to add to whatever they brought in and stored on their own. I was under the impression that they ate very little pollen, or none, over the winter. I guess I'm missing something about what you're doing, and why?
> 
> Six pounds is an impressive harvest from one double deep. Makes me wonder how much my hives would have brought in as some of mine are in four deeps. I suppose it depends on your forage possibilities. Do you think it was mostly goldenrod and New England aster? Do you get that much every year?
> 
> ...


I agree with this. The pollen at the end of the season is better stored in the comb. I trap pollen in late spring and early summer when there's a lot of it coming in. I trap a week at a time and towards the end the bees are feeling the shortage and are trying to make up for it by bringing in more pollen so that by then end of the week I'll have harvested between 12-15 pounds. The bees are at there best at this time and primed to bring in more pollen with the larger population they have. Once the trap is taken away, the bees take little time to pack away the pollen they were missing. I harvest and freeze the pollen daily and use it in the early spring patties mixed with beepro (feburary and march). you can't beat fresh frozen pollen as a stimulater. I've also added it it to cells and and put syrup over top of it and the bees will press the pollen into the frame just the same as if they gathered it from the feild, this is the easy way of making good pollen frames early in the season.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

Hey Greenway- much respect for your efforts at doing what you think will help your girls have a successful season- keep it up. I used to feed pollen sub with fondant during late winter/early spring in south Carolina. I stopped feeding the pollen sub because I found it attracted SHB larva to hives that didn't consume the sub, so now I just use fondant and I feel they build up just as well without it- but that's my location.


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