# Mann Lake woodenware



## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

I've ordered alot of Commercial grade boxes from them & got good boxes.I guess it depend's on the time of year.Mark


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Time of year has EVERYTHING to do with it, but this being the heavy ordering time I would have thought the quality better.

The order I just got from Browning was superb. 

Wooden ware MUST be assembled as soon as you get it or else it will start drying out and warping, cupping etc.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I just assembled 5 shallows that were 10 years old or more from Dadant (NOS) and although there was some minor warping they were tight and very good.

I understand Dadant gets them from Western Bee........

Mann Lake must have gotten some crappy wood! They should stand behind their goods and offer an exchange.....


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I leave my Dadant's flat until I need them. I don't see any real warping, maybe one piece out of 25. On those, a couple of clamps hold it while I nail. Kiln Dried wood seems to be what they use.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Dadant owns Western Bee, so you can expect there
to be no problem with Dadant getting the quality
they want.

I've never gotten woodenware from Mann Lake,
but I have used Dadant, Brushy Mtn, and Rossman.
All were more than "acceptable", with no need to
feel that I had a "bad" part.

In this age of digital cameras and e-mail, I
don't see how anyone could hide from shoddy
workmanship. Sure, the grade of LUMBER will
be different when buying different "grades",
but this is no excuse for things like poor
initial fit and missing pilot holes.

Call Mann Lake. Ask for Stewart. Tell him
what you have in your hands. My bet is that
he will take care of you, just to assure that
you become a happy camper.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Western Bee makes woodenware and sells it to Dadant (and others) It also sells woodenware directly. It isn't owned by Dadant.
http://www.westernbee.com/


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

I've used wooden ware from both Western Bee and Mann Lake. The Mann Lake stuff was perfectly good, but the Western Bee stuff was absolutely beautiful. Nice wood, perfect fit, top notch stuff.

If I had my druthers, I'd always use Western Bee Supply, but shipping is much less from Mann Lake (for my location), and their stuff is perfectly good, so the more local supplier seems the better deal to me.


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

Dadant dpes own western they purchased them a few years ago.


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

This is the first I have heard of Western Bee Supplies being owned by Dadant.

Knowing Rick and Dick Molenda personaly they have never mentioned to me that they are owned by Dadant.

There is no Dadant logo's on thier web site.
http://www.westernbee.com/


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## YBCute (Oct 18, 2004)

Well, I am close to PA. I get my boxes from Beeline. I have ZERO complaints for fit.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Last July Jerry Bromenshank took a group of us from Missoula to Western Bee's plant in Polsan. I, too, had heard they were owned by Dadant. I asked Dick during the tour if they were actually owned by Dadant and he told me no. He said they sell wooden ware to Dadant. FWIW.
Rather than getting into a long winded discussion over who owns or doesn't own Western Bee, why doesn't someone email both of them and ask?


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## King bee apiary (Feb 8, 2005)

I have ordered 6 complete(assembled) hives from Mann Lake so far and have no complaints.
But if one was that picky one should build it oneself.


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

I'm not picky but I do expect to get what I pay for. In the future I do intend on making it myself I just haven't had time to.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I have 20 colonies with 5 or so supers for each ... all from Mann Lake, shipped flat and assembled by me. All but 1 deep were perfect. I called them about the defective one and was told that it had to do with wood drying at different rates. They offered to replace it and I coaxed a new hive tool out of them and re sawed the box. We were both happy.

Dick Marron


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

I got no such offer. But they just lost me as a customer so no biggie. Since there are others more than happy to deal with me and make certain I am happy, I could really care less. Mann Lake carries nothing I can't get elsewhere. I think I'll stick with Betterbee and Brushy.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

I just ordered 5 unassembled deeps yesturday from mannlakes, hope i dont have a problem with there commercial woodware. but we'll see?


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## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Strange;
I ordered commercial and econonomy boxes last year just to test Mann Lake. Only the quality of the wood was different, and the joints were perfect fits. 

They state clearly that the economy boxes may have manufacturing defects such as saw cuts and mistakes, but mine did not. 
Ox


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## tnttommy (Dec 16, 2004)

just my .02. I also ordered 18 deeps from mann lake, unfortunately I did not get them from Mann Lake directly, rather I got them through one of their distrubutors. I had the same thought about the crappy quality and fit. I had already assembled and painted them. it was in the stacking that I realized there was a problem. I figured I was just SOL since I had them all assembled and painted. Maybe I'll follow up with them. 

Ordered a boatload of frames and an extractor. They seem to be fine.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

well just got my deeps today and the joints fit good , top is level but the 2 short ends are about 1/8 inch shorter (up and down)from the bottom on a couple of them , in other words the deep on the short ends has a small gap at the bottom, just a little sanding and it perfect but i'm pleased with the commercial deeps, good wood, and yes I will buy more from them , just my 2 cents


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

YBCute,
When I'm short on time and can not make myself, I also get from Beeline. For the cost, and no shipping with pick-up, its worth the drive.


As for the imperfections with budget and lower grade...I can see minor cut differences, or knots and cracks. What blows me away is the passing of mis-cuts with the finger joints. I have all the equipment needed, but when the fingers are way off, the dealers should burn it. I know the disclaimers and all, but when every piece of equipment/machinery you could buy can not turn it into a "box",(without major surgery) then whats the point.

About the only thing I do with them is cut off the fingers, and make nucs. At least with the front and back. The side get cut also but new sides have to be cut from other stock.
I have alot of birdhouses this way......


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## vqarabs (Dec 16, 2003)

The cuts should still be workable at the budget or economy grade levels. Wood has inherit fallacies, and woodenware should only be downgraded due to knots, cracks, pitch, etc. The cuts should not change dramatically - if you have ever seen a box machine running - they take from 10-20 boards at a time and dovetail each piece all at once. Theoretically, you could have all different grades of wood in the hopper - so the cuts should not deviate much if at all.


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## newbee 101 (May 26, 2004)

I have had pretty good luck with Mann Lake.
I had a broken frame once and called them about it, they sent it PRIORITY mail, all for an .85 cent item. I needed that 10th frame, but not that quick!


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## Loren (Aug 2, 2004)

I've ordered most of my stuff from Mann Lake. The first shipment of woodenware they sent was horrible...I'd ordered commercial grade but what I got was nasty "budget" grade with huge cracks splitting the wood and giant sappy knotholes.
However, when I sent them a complaining email, they apologized, and sent "select" grade to me the next time at the commercial grade price. So it worked out ok and I was happy. 
That said, I've also noticed the careless finger joint drilling- sometimes totally undrilled and sometimes drilled way off center. Anyway for their consistently better prices they have I can live with having to use the drill and a little extra wood glue.
All my dealings with Mann Lake last year were very positive. Exceptionally good customer service, friendly people, good quality products, and like newbee 101 said, occasional priority shipping if there's a problem. 
However, the one order I've placed this year was not handled in their usual way; the operator sounded like a sullen 13 yr old and the plastic comb boxes were packed loose with a frame perch which cracked and scratched them badly. The kind of service you describe, chemistbert, is also not in usual character for the company. In light of all this I wouldn't be surprised if they're under new management or something.


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## vqarabs (Dec 16, 2003)

It is my understanding that Jack & Betty Thomas (founders) have been slowly selling out their ownership of Mann Lake to the employees - basically an ESOP. As far as totally new management goes - I don't believe that's the case.


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## beeman 202 (Jan 8, 2003)

Some want furniture grade boxes, while some just fill dem der boxes wich bees and are not concerned at de appearance.


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## YBCute (Oct 18, 2004)

No matter what company I get boxes from sometimes they don't align for sitting flat. For a long time now after assembling I run them down the table saw and correct the box. Never more than .030 though and they now sit like their suppose to / FLAT. Bought some colonies lately and these poor bees did nothing but try and fill GIANT gaps between the boxes and this guy never figured it out why they use so much glue!!!


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I had ordered 15 meds from Mann Lake before this thread was started. I usually make my own. I was less than impressed. Won't be buying anymore woodenware from them. The fingers fit very loosely in most of mine with big gaps around some of the fingers. I want a snug fit. Back to making my own. I think my rabbeted boxes are far better quality.

Dan


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Received a small shipment from Mann yesterday, and have to chime in as well. One board for a deep body (Unassembled commercial-grade) was incredibly warped. Even worse, it had scuff marks where someone had stomped or pried against it to flatten it, cracking it in the process! No one could reasonably look at this board (not the only problem with the shipment) and in good conscience give it to a customer; it's firewood. 

Very disappointed.


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## YBCute (Oct 18, 2004)

Well, I picked up 2 100 packs of frames from Dadant. 10 top bars I could put strings on and use for a harp!!! 2" bends and twists / worthless. 99% of the frames I had to cut the wedge out. Then run it through the saw to get it atleast square again. Then run all the wedges through the planner as they were all ragged bad. I never had a problem with Kelly frames at all and thats over 1,000's of them. So much for show specials


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I don't know why no one posting has called the
vendor and asked that defective products be
replaced at the vendor's expense.

I certainly do not expect woodenware to be
"furniture grade", but I expect frames to
fit in boxes, and I expect boxes to stack
without gaps large enough to make alternative
entrances.

The Fed-X guy delivered a replacement Cisco OSR
router today - the one they shipped us a few
days ago went back to Cisco on the same truck.
It had a few problems. We called and told them
that "a few problems" was unacceptable in a
brand-spankin'-new $40,000 toy, and requested
that they replace it with one that did not
have that "lemon scent", so it could be deployed
next week, rather than next month.









They did.

Likewise, one can e-mail digital photos of
lousy woodenware to the vendor, and give the
vendor the option of replacing it with usable
woodenware, or seeing the photos uploaded to
Flickr ( http://flickr.com ) and mentioned on
several online groups like this one.

But to complain about a vendor without first
giving them a chance to stand behind their
products is not really fair, is it? 

I'd guess you'd be rather annoyed at someone
who talked your honey down to others rather
than coming to you and asking you to replace
the bottle that crystallized in a week, wouldn't
you?

Yes, it is terrible that quality control is
so lacking that such kindling even goes out
the door as "woodenware", but thats not your
problem. Perhaps if more people called the
vendors and informed them of the defects, they
would realize that their "quality control" isn't!


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

This is why I only buy from Western Bee. They bend over backwards to solve any problem that I migh have with the wooden ware,and the Dovetail finger joints always fit snugly. 

I have also never seen a box that sits completely flat. Think of it this way a spot is needed to insert a hive tool to crack open the hive.


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## BeeBear (Jan 20, 2004)

>> But to complain about a vendor without first
>> giving them a chance to stand behind their
>> products is not really fair, is it? 

Maybe. Maybe not.

First, let me point out that in the article that opened this thread, the author said "I called them and they said that was normal". Sounds like the vendor was given a chance to stand behind the product, and chose not to.

I understand your point Jim, and I do agree that the vendor needs to know and be given a chance to respond. But just as you were complaining about Cicso in your post, I think that it's valuable for people to report their experiences in forums like this. It is even more valuable when you see "I contacted the vendor and they [were great] [told me to eat worms and die].

I do hope that readers take what they see with the appropriate sized grain of salt and realize that it represents the experience only of the person posting. Also, people tend to report problems more than they report good experiences.

I have had no problems with Mann Lake woodenware but it has been a year since I purchased any, and I didn't buy huge amounts. The 20 supers I assembled went together with no problem and I didn't have any warped wood.


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

Storage of Woodenware is crucial. Wood stored in a warm dry place will warp. But if it is cold warpage is not much of a problem. We assemble supers by the thousand and frames by the ten thousand.

When we recieve a shipment it goes directly into cold storage, and only bring into our heated shop what we can build during the day. I have noticed wooden frames and box sides that are perfectly flat that when brought into the warm shop after a week will start to warp. This is expecialy noticable on the top of the skid.

I do not want to defend Man Lake. But are you sure that There is no fault on your part. 

When wood drys out it warps.

How long were boxes and frames stored after they were cut at the factory? 6 months, 1 year

There is always the odd frame that is warped badly and box that is bad 1 in the 500 or 1000
when frames and boxes are being cut it is very hard to watch the quality of the wood being procesed. These plants cut 12 hours per day.

When a person only buys a couple of supers and couple hunderd frames these imperfections stick out like a sore thumb.

We had an issue last year where we thought Western Bee cut the bottom Grove to deep in the bottom bar and had issues whith the plastic falling out. We called them and the next day. I measured the plastic and noticed that the plastic was 1/8 of an inch to short. It was'nt Western Bees fault. But they still retooled thier machines and cut me the first bach of thier new redesigned thicker bottom bar so I would not have issues whith the plastic. I recieved these bottom bars after a week. Service pays.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Before we get too defensive here, I did contact Mann (and have not received a response). I definitely agree that they need an opportunity to remedy what might be an honest mistake. They happen. However the nature of the shortcomings on the order I received was really remarkable; not useable by any reasonable measure, and very visibly so. When these were stacked to ship, only someone's twelve-year-old nephew who's working as punishment would not care about the flaws I got. You couldn't set a bottle of beer on this board and take your hand away (unless it's diet McBeer  ) In light of the other comments, I think it's OK to share an experience with the members here, as market forces tand to get a lot more attention than a lone voice asking for a remedy to poor service.


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

I did not thuroughly read all the threads and have to agree that there is a problem here.

The problem here is that small beekeepers do not have the buying power that the large guys do. Buying power means better service.

I agree that Man Lake needs to provide better service expecialy to the hobbist. It is improtant for thier bottom line. The freight probably is worth more than the wood is. But If they want repeat buisness they had better get thier act together. who knows If the hobbist is going to go commercial or how many beekeeper friends he has and talks to.

I hate the I don't care about you attitude, just your money


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## Todd Zeiner (Jun 15, 2004)

Being a woodworker I bet I know what happened. They probably had a batch of kiln-dried wood get wet somewhere in the process. When they started running them through the process of milling and cutting, the boards were warped. A warped board will not fit properly into the jigs used for cutting. Thus they have joints that don't fit. 

If everyone that has purchased a bad product from them would call them, then I bet they would make it right.

I would at least give them the chance. Let us know what they say.


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## DanZ (Mar 6, 2005)

That's just shoddy workmanship, and it catches up to you in the end. I bought a buch of deeps some years back that had this very problem. When I looked at them and saw that they were milled warped, I just shook my head. I returned them, got good stock in return and never bought from that vendor again. I did't care if they went out of business (they did, in time) I just never used them again.
I suspect that a lot of these woodenware makers do not keep bees, and havn't a clue how their products are used.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Thanks Bill, we really appreciate your taking the time to let us know about this.

Regards,

Sherri
Mann Lake Ltd.
501 S. 1st St
Hackensack, MN 56452
www.mannlakeltd.com
Fax: 218-675-6156
800-880-7694 (or)
218-675-6688
----- Original Message ----- 
From: BULLSEYE BILL 
To: [email protected] 
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:20 PM
Subject: Woodenware


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I'll add that Sherri did just respond very promptly to my second attempt, and it sounds like it'll be made right. That's some influence you have there Bill! Maybe I need to change my email address to Deadeye Ben or something more menacing than Brewcat


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## east_stingray (Feb 8, 2005)

Are you guys having to pay return shipping? All of the cases like this I have ever encountered they expected me to pay return shipping (mostly electronics... I make my own bee equipment).


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Seems like they're trusting me that the stuff is unusable; I suspect the cost of the return ship would not be worth pursuing just to see if I made it up. I'll be a return customer if this works out, and a little trust goes a long way.


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## Sungold (May 11, 2003)

I've used Humble Abodes for the last few orders that I have placed. All they sell is woodenware. Their commerical garde boxes and frames have always please me. Friendly, polite, tight finger joints, no warping, few knots. Very good northeast supplier. Give them a call, they will be more than happy to give a price quote on the woodenware and shipping. And no,I don't know them or have any interest or affiliation with them.


Humble Abodes Inc., RR#1 - Box 570, Coopers Mills Rd., Windsor, ME 04363, Phone (877) 423-3269, Fax (207) 549-5512.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I had a problem with a freight damaged extractor last year and the response from this board in e-mails and calls to the shipper was not only touching but quite effective in solving my delima. I am glad that Sherri made contact with you and your problem is being resolved.

Now if only Brand New would come around and do the right thing. NEVER EVER BUY A BRANDING IRON FROM BRAND NEW!


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## DanZ (Mar 6, 2005)

In my dealings with Mann Lake, they have been A1 on customer service. Everyone makes mistakes, what they do to make it right is what matters.

DanZ


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## Lively Bee's (Dec 9, 2004)

I have found the kellys woddenware is the best 
yet. I ordered 2 lot's from betterbee one was great the sec order was trash some of the end's were not even box jointed I had to cut them myself. I have use mann lake and dadant they have been ok some of them a clean and some of the a kinda trashy. 

So what I dont make my self I buy from kellys.


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

Allow me to recap my problem. I bought a few boxes and being who I am was stoked when they showed up and rushed them to the basement and started assembling. Being that I had only 4 boxes it took me oh about 30 minutes. I during assembly noticed rather large gaps a large loose knot and very poor fit all over not to mention missing nail holes. Called Mann lake and they said oh thats the way they are sorry. I said at least if you are going to stick me then take a buck or two off the one with the huge loose knot. They said OK if we have to. I said count on me telling everyone I can that you screwed me. They said that's fine.

So I did everything right and they still stuck me with crap woodenware.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>not to mention missing nail holes

That's how I prefer them, without nailholes. I drill and countersink them anyway and the prepunched nailholes are almost never in the center where they should be.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I bought a few boxes....noticed rather large gaps a large loose knot and very poor fit all over not to mention missing nail holes.

Take a can lid, and staple it inside the box over the knot hole. Problem solved. Bees will perform just the same.

Did you pick the boxes up or were the delivered?


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

Delivered. And that's not the point, point is I shouldn't have gotten it to begin with.


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

Thanks for telling me. I've only ordered from rossman and dadant and love the quality of rossman's woodenware. It is incredible. I will never order woodenware from mann lake after hearing this. Thanks for the warning.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I will add that I received my replacements today and it all looks fine. As an added precaution it was packaged in a manner that made a lot more sense and less vulnerable damage from the UPS gorillas (another problem with the last order). I've been mollified, and hope that Mann will add a little to their QA regimen, but I consider us square.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I will never order woodenware from mann lake after hearing this. Thanks for the warning.

Wait a minute here. You guys are brewing poison from a punch bowl,here. I have bought hundreds of boxes from Mann Lake, and have been extreemly happy with the woodenware. In fact, I would even be hard preesed to find a bad board in the bunch!! And that is out of a bunch of full pallets loads.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Agreed, Ian. I have bought several hundred boxes from Mann Lake (deeps & mediums, usually budget grade) and have always been satisfied.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

I make my boxes but use frames from Mann Lake and have never had a problem not a bad one in a thousand.


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## artic (Feb 18, 2005)

I figured I should chime in here a bit.
Last night I just assembled 40 frames from Mann Lake (20 deep, 20 medium) and I had no real problem with the woodware. I had to shave a bit of burred wood of a couple of pieces, but other than that they each came out just fine.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I ordered a bunch of frames from Mann Lake last week. Should have them this week sometime. They called me twice, once to ask what style frame I wanted, and the 2nd time to let me know the shipping would be alittle bit higher than quoted. Troy was the one I talked to, seems like a nice person. I'll update when I recieve my stuff with my thoughts.

peggjam


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've bought plenty of Mann Lake equipment with no problems and no bad wood. Only once did they ever ship me the wrong thing and they gladly exchanged it.


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## BeeBear (Jan 20, 2004)

My most recent Mann Lake order appeared at my door the day after I ordered it. I thought that was pretty impressive, given that this must be a busy season for them. Of course I live in the same state, but MN is a long state from the south where I am to the north where they are.

Now if we could just get some temps here that are warm enough to paint woodenware . . .


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Recieved my order and everything went together as planned. It seems that no matter where I buy frames from, I always get 2 out to 200 that are unusable, which was the case this time. Oh well.

peggjam


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## williams (Apr 2, 2005)

Thats why i build cut glue nail and paint, From tree in my woods to hive on stands, somtimes a problem at my house.But when there is its my butt in the sling, But its quality controll all the way and its time darn consuming . Somtimes i wonder if it is worth it


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