# Making 4 frame nucs and keeping them in the same bee yard dilema. Any Suggestions



## brownkenvt_5910 (9 mo ago)

I make up lots of 4 frame nucs every summer. In the fall I put the nucs to bed for the Vermont winter -- they are now 4-16 frames stacked.
Then every spring I successfully make up nucs with the overwintered queen and brood in a 4 frame nuc box. I also make up nucs with the remaining brood, bees nectar etc and a new queen in 4 frame nuc boxes. 
Thing is, in past years I've been able to move those new nucs to a bee yard several miles away. Because I've had bear problems at that bee yard I'm keeping all the nucs in the same yard this year. 
I'm concerned about all the foragers ending up in the nucs with the overwintered queen -- or whatever nuc boxes are placed in the spot where the nuc overwintered. Any suggestions? Has anyone done this on a large scale? A small scale? Put one nuc on top of the other? Switch them weekly/daily? Face one backwards?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Shake all the bees into the nucs with the old queens moved to new stands, and leave bare minimal bees in the nucs with new queens left in place. The nucs left in place with new queens will grab the foragers, the nucs moved away will retain the nurse bees. They'll equal out over time. Keep an eye on them and equalize as needed by moving frames of sealed emerging brood, or shaking in nurse bees from other hives in the yard.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

so what Ray says.
"plan" for the drift, leave the old location a bit weak, the foragers will fly back, and then be more even.
most of my splits are in the same yard, so it is part of the plan.
you can add a branch or lean a 2x4 to the front of the new Split for a week or 2 to offer a better orienteering start.
be careful of splits during dearth, as the foragers will go back and rob the queen less split.

GG


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

so i actually do the opposite of ^those two^. i leave the old queen on the original stand as the foragers are used to her. if i need drawn comb i will leave one frame of open brood and the rest foundation (ala Lauri Miller fly-back split). the nucs i make up i try to have two frames of capped brood and one open and a frame of food so robbers arent enticed by a feeder. if there isnt enough pollen in combs i will place a small patty. i have 5-frame nucs so the last frame will be empty comb or foundation. the new nucs with only nurse bees readily accept cells, virgins, mated queens, whatever. actually i have NEVER had a mated queen be rejected when using this method. i have had swarms if i make them too strong so check for QCs after a week. but within that week the younger bees have graduated into foragers. i do this when daytime temps are in the 40s. i do this in summer dearth after harvesting honey then adding feed. i can treat at the same time and keep them working when nothing else is going on.


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## brownkenvt_5910 (9 mo ago)

Thanks Ray, Gray, & Coal for your thoughts. It's helpful to get some other angles.
In the past I have always made up the nuc with the existing queen, and taken her off premises in a 4 frame nuc. That would leave me with the leftover recourses (brood, nurse bees, foragers, honey nectar and frames) and I would simply give them a new queen. I'd sell the nuc I had taken off site and use the leftovers onsite to rebuild each year.
This year two things are different. 1) I don't have a viable off-site location, and 2) I'm not rebuilding... I'm making as many nucs as possible and going out of the nuc business -- leaving me with only maybe one hive and a nuc or two. 
So based on some further thinking, and reading your thoughts above,this is what I'm planning (so far...)
I'm starting off with a bunch of overwintered (here in VT) nuc that are 4 frames stacked. Some are 2 high (8 total frames), some 3 high (12 frames), a few 4 high(16 frames).
From each existing nuc I will make a new nuc with the existing queen,nurse bees, likely some foragers, brood, pollen, honey/nectar, & comb space, and move that nuc box to a new location in the apiary. Nuc buyers will be picking them up in 5 days. 
From the remaining recourses at each old nuc location I will build as many nucs as possible (1-3), sometimes mixing and matching recourses from other nucs to create single or multiple nucs where the old nucs stood -- sometimes one on top the other. The foragers will have their choice in that case of the top (or middle) or bottom hole nuc to enter. These nucs will be queenless for about 24 hours before receiving a caged queen.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

An aspect of splitting not discussed here is that the foragers are the older bees, and older bees are less likely to accept a new queen.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

you have nuc buyers coming in four days now? without a solid plan in place yet?? ::
as i said i like to keep the forragers with the original queen. your plan now i think will be difficult to have your nucs balanced for selling. not sure how many colonies you have right now either.
consider another plan: get the queen in bottom box with the frames arranged how you would like to sell. perhaps one partial open brood and two capped (so not too many nurse bees settle in that box). then equalize the frames in the reamining boxes and stack them over a queen excluder to be repopulated by the nurse bees overnight. then pull those boxes over excluder to make nucs and place new queens. remember that bottom box that we didnt want much nurse bees in? they will now get all the forragers and you need not worry about them rejecting a queen not currently in lay. this upfront work should leave you with pretty even populated nucs. you would just need to have enough bottom and tops for all these boxes. good luck and let us know what you do and how it worked out!


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## brownkenvt_5910 (9 mo ago)

Thanks for those suggestions, Coal.
No, I don't have buyers coming in 4 days. I'm breaking up my "big" nucs into the "new" nucs -- each with 1 overwintered queen nuc and 1 or more with nucs the leftovers from each in about 10 days. Then the overwintered buyers are coming 4 days later, and the other a week after that so the new queens have a chance to get settled. So I have a couple of weeks. That's why I'm getting this planning together now 😎.
The queen on the bottom with an excluder to start the process, is a good approach I think. I worry a tad about that box ending up really bloated with foragers, but that's probablay preferable to having too many foragers in boxes where I'm trying to get a new queen accepted. Boxes and tops are no problem -- everybody is going in a cardboard nuc box before it's all over. 
I've got about 16-18 overwintered nucs to set up and will probably be able to make 20-23 new nucs from the leftovers. All going out the door 4-11 days after the re-build.
Thanks again for lending a hand to my planning thoughts. Any other thoughts, keep 'em coming. I'll update you on what and how I do.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

I move my nucs over the evening before pickup and just close them up, place them in a cool garage with a big fan, and they are picked up early the next morning. I can easily do 20 in very little time as long as the nuc boxes are assembled and ready to go. I move all the boxes out next to each hive before I get started and it only takes an hour or two.

I use double screened boards so I'm left with brood to introduce a new queen to, in order to repeat the process. This entirely removes the drift issue, but would work all the same in your instance.

Otherwise yes, you are going to be shaking a whole lot of bees in those nucs and planning for the drift. There won't be a huge foraging population but I'm not sure anyone would complain about a box full of nurse bees either - just a lot of extra work on your part.


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