# Empty Frames vs Top-Bar?



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm curious to know if there would be any difference between a typical top-bar hive, and a Langstroth filled with only empty frames (no foundation).

Empy frames with no foundation will look something like this:

http://www.beesource.com/pov/simon/comb.jpg 

Impossible to work and quite a mess.

>If the bees will draw the same comb in both the top-bar and in a Langstroth with empty frames, are there advantages to doing it either way? 

Assuming you put some kind of comb guide on the Langstroth frames (a wax starter strip, or wood starter strip or triangular piece of wood for a guide) they will build pretty much the same thing in both. If you put an empty frame between two drawn brood combs they will draw it nicely (the drawn combs act like a guide). The same thing if you put an empty top bar with no guide between two drawn top bars.

>Would you get the same benefits from a top bar hive with the empty frame Lang?

The frame will give more support, especially if you leave it until the bees get it attached on the sides and the bottom some. Then you could extract the frame, if you wanted.

The top bar will have the advantage of ease of building and ease of inspection. The bees get less excited with less exposed bees which the solid layer of top bars gives you.

If you want a comprimise, try a long medium depth box with a mixture of top bars and frames and see what you like.

There are long top bar hives and long hives with frames and foundationless frames on my site: www.bushfarms.com

[ November 16, 2005, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Michael Bush ]


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

what you need to do is coax the bee's into building their comb within the frames, rather than just every which way
that picture Michael posted give me the "willies"  
you need to give them some kind of guide
if you have drawn comb, putting an empty frame between two drawn combs does the trick
but I'm a beeginer like you and didn't have any drawn comb
the next easiest trick is a starter strip
here's a pic 

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/Dsc00780.jpg

it's just a strip of foundation to get em going right
there are other way's to do it
Michael has pics on his website of frames where he ran the topbar thru a tablesaw and cut a triangle on the bottom
others take the wedge cleat and nail it in sideways
some folks suggest taking these wooden guides you produce using either of these methods and rubbing them with beeswax
you're just trying to get the bee's started straight

I really like the idea of letting the bee's build what's natural for them
and I REALLY hope it helps with the mites
Oh, also, I'm a hopeless cheapskate and don't want to pay for foundation









It's a long time till spring and you have lot's of time to soak up info here
There's lot's available

If you're building your equipment, consider what Michael call's a "long hive"
here's pic's of two I'm building.

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/lh/lh.html

Dave


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## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

"the next easiest trick is a starter strip-
it's just a strip of foundation to get em going right"

But does it have to be small cell foundation for the starter strip for them to continue building small cell or will regular foundation work?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

"But does it have to be small cell foundation for the starter strip for them to continue building small cell or will regular foundation work?"

I don't think it really matters
I used SC for the strips because I had some, but I don't think it's necessary
I believe I've seen Michael describe taking a wet board and dipping in melted wax so it get's covered with a sheet of wax, peel it off the board after it cools, and cut that up for a "blank" starter strip
now THATS economy for ya








the whole idea is to not give them a template, let em build what's natural
I must admit my bee's didn't draw out "small cell" comb
it's smaller, some is like 5.1 mm, but I started my first hive in april and didn't start messing with this till mid june
it'll be interesting to see what they do next spring

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't think it makes that much difference, but I think the concept of natural comb would be that you probably shouldn't coerce them into anything.







 So, if you want a strip, why not make a blank strip? I guess the appeal of the small cell is that IF you're going to coerce them, at least do it in the right direction.


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## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

your where i was last year at this time! im going into this first winter with 2 tbh 2 langs and one long hive. im glad i did all three because i learned i reeeealy prefer horizontal to vertical beekeeping. youll get excellant advice from above posters and others. you can also search past postings for days. that above photo was from an article about bottomless beekeeping,the author didnt seem to concerned with it. be advized that starter strips are just guides and without supervision they may not keep things as neat as we want them. once a week inspections and a little bit of tasty management keeps combs under control.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>i learned i reeeealy prefer horizontal to vertical beekeeping. 

Me too.


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