# Sticky  Treatment Free in Finland



## Juhani Lunden

Made a short visit to Heimo Kangasaho, the one other TF beekeeper in Finland that I know of. 

https://naturebees.wordpress.com/2018/09/22/heimo-kangasaho-treatment-free-beekeeper-since-2001/


----------



## squarepeg

very interesting story juhani, many thanks for sharing it.

i've only skimmed it for now, but will give a more careful read later.

(i felt like your contributions are unique and deserving of a thread, i hope you don't mind that i created this one)


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Hopefully we will find more of us later.
New thread... I suppose we are worth it.


----------



## Fusion_power

You mention that his bees seem to have a different mechanism for mite resistance. Can you describe the difference?

I've experienced problems when combining genetics from two different parental lines with different mechanisms for resistance. In one instance, the first cross was highly susceptible to mites. Later generations stabilized and developed better mite resistance than either parental line. For reference, this was when I crossed queens raised from my first mite resistant queen with drones from Purvis queens.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Fusion_power said:


> You mention that his bees seem to have a different mechanism for mite resistance. Can you describe the difference?
> 
> I've experienced problems when combining genetics from two different parental lines with different mechanisms for resistance. In one instance, the first cross was highly susceptible to mites. Later generations stabilized and developed better mite resistance than either parental line. For reference, this was when I crossed queens raised from my first mite resistant queen with drones from Purvis queens.


Very interesting to hear about your similar experiences. It might actually be, by both of us, that it is just what happens according to Mendel laws: variation opens up!

It is hard to describe the difference, if there is any. After all I have quite few hives and the test series only has a handful of queens. It seems that Kangasaho queens make more brood and most of all there are no holes in it. You can see it in the picture in my blog, very typical looking. My bees seem to be over cautious, holes all over and slow development. And because the brood areas are larger and less holes, the Kangasaho queens seem to more easily grow large colonies. Despite that the infestation levels (sugar roll in May/June) seem to be in similar levels. Some got brood disease and dwindled away. 
Heimo has been TF 7 years longer than me, maybe this makes the difference as breeding advance.


----------



## Riverderwent

“Pure Lundén Resistant Queens make smaller than average brood area, but of course not treating must have an effect.“

Sharp observation. Location makes so much difference in what works. We purposely keep very small, compact hives, largely because of hive beetles. That seems to work for us. We don’t feed. I understand the fascination with massive hives, but I don’t share it. I’m fascinated by small, healthy colonies that require little work other than adding supers and harvesting.


----------



## GregB

Riverderwent said:


> ....... I understand the fascination with massive hives, but I don’t share it. I’m fascinated by small, healthy colonies that require little work other than adding supers and harvesting.


+1.
I too am trying to keep managing small to medium colonies as my staple.
Hence, the beehive configuration experiments that I do - once a good configuration is finalized to consistently winter 5-6 frame colonies in upper Midwest - that is all I want to do long-term.
A massive hive can be created anytime and any place (for as long as you have a fleet of small hives).


----------



## 1102009

The elgon queens from sweden do the same. One deep or three langstroth mediums and on top the honey mediums, sometimes as high as a person is in flow season as production hives, as I saw when I was in sweden. 

But: if brood is destroyed by VSH behaviour the broodnest is not expanding as much as in a treated hive, IMO.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Riverderwent said:


> “Pure Lundén Resistant Queens make smaller than average brood area, but of course not treating must have an effect.“
> 
> Sharp observation. Location makes so much difference in what works.


I have had thoughts about my location. In the old days, when I treated, I got max. 150 kg honey from my home yard, I considered it so poor that I usually kept only 4 hives on it. In comparison I usually had 6 hives on my other yards and I could get 400 kg or more from one place. 
Now I have had up to 25 normal hives and 25 small hives on my home yard. Maybe there is simply lack of pollen. Comparing this home yard to my best places is like comaparing IPM beekeepers to TF beekeepers, it cannot be done.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

This is a graft from Baton USDA report about VSH and POL line queens. https://slideplayer.com/slide/10410534/


Shows just how vast the variation is although they used single drone insemination and selected stocks.
It gives some idea how difficult varroa resistance breeding is. Only the best 25% are varroa resistant of the queens in the graft.

No wonder I had some doubts about Kangasaho material (the F1s), whether I should reject them altogether. Luckily I did not.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani:

I am subscribing to this thread in hopes to glean from your experience as you have time to share.

Signed,

Hopeful in Kentucky


----------



## Oldtimer

Great pic Juhani


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Oldtimer said:


> Great pic Juhani


:doh:


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> I am subscribing to this thread in hopes to glean from your experience as you have time to share


Thanks!
Not so much about time, but for the last 3 months there has been nothing to tell. Well maybe one thing: because of climate change I for the first time saw some bees flying in November, usually the last time is somewhere in the first half of October you see some crazy kamikaze bee around. Of course some sick bees all winter come out, but they have no intention to return. 

14 normal size hives and 24 nucs are all humming nicely, there was 15 normal size hives in the early august but one did not take any food it was so weak. The size of the melted roof tops (yep, they the ones I got this Real Mensa nomination) tell me some information about the size and place of the cluster. If it is in the side, I need to have an earlier peak inside in the spring, to ensure that they are in contact with stores. But that is sometime in April.

2019 I probably need to consider replacing my hives in several locations. Summer 2018 was the total opposite to the three summers before, very hot. But surprise surprise: lack off pollen happens in drought too! To my memory we have never had such drought as 2018 was.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani:

Thank you for the update- I am laughing about the Mensa candidate comment and I am sure there is a good back story to this one- I've seen the quotation in your signature... snow here is a relatively infrequent and panic-inducing event, causing a mad run on the stores for bread and milk 🙂

I didn't want you to feel rushed to respond, just wanted to subscribe so I would be notified when you commented.

As far as the climate changing, winters here seem to be characterized by much more variability- it was 18 degrees F on Monday night and 57 degrees F on Wednesday afternoon. It is not all that uncommon to have 40 + degree F swings in a 12 hour period.

I look forward to what you will be sharing. Have a great day. 

Russ


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Thank you for the update- I am laughing about the Mensa candidate comment and I am sure there is a good back story to this one- I've seen the quotation in your signature...


https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...are-the-real-treatment-free-beekeepers/page13

post 246


----------



## Oldtimer

Tim I interesting guy. Treatment free but manages to antagonise every TF beekeeper he talks to. Even got kicked off Solomon Parkers TF Facebook group.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani:

Thanks for clarifying- I actually have been following that thread and saw that post but assumed it went farther back than that. If I have learned but one thing yet, it is that successful beekeeping seems to be highly variable based on where you live, and furthermore, with a lot of management decisions, it appears sometimes there is more than one acceptable option?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

I have made some counting of mites with a method which suits everybody: how many mites is found on the dead bees dying during winter time.
For some reason I made one larger measuring in 2009 and then again 2017, and found that infestation had gone down pretty much in the same speed as the infestation of breeder queens. Dead bees had much higher level of infestation, but going down the same way, with several years delay, as in breeder hives.

Mites on dead bees:
2009 11%
2017 4,5%

I make no claims of any accuracy what so ever, but just interesting to notice. 

Just today found 112 "fresh" dead bees on the snow, near the entrances, mites on two of them, one had 2, 3 mites altogether, 2,6% infestation.


----------



## squarepeg

that's interesting juhani. about how many hives did you sample like that in 2009 and 2017?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

squarepeg said:


> that's interesting juhani. about how many hives did you sample like that in 2009 and 2017?


I could not find the exact numbers any more, but I recall it was something between 500 and 1000, in both years.

EDIT: 
quote from my diary 22.12.2017

"These figures are no science. But to get them, it took me several hours, counting and washing over 2000 bees. What are these figures to me? Just one little proof that I maybe, just maybe, haven´t fooled myself during these years."

My memory is failing.


----------



## squarepeg

i think the information is meaningful, and as you said it tends to corroborate your other measurements.

are you still working with that many hives juhani?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

squarepeg said:


> are you still working with that many hives juhani?


what do you mean that many?
I have 14 normal size, plus 24 nucs

EDIT:
you asked hive numbers: 2017 they were pretty much the same, 2009 much more, somewhere around 100, but how many hives were in the sample, I don´t remember, that was just one experiment I never thought I would repeat it. But seems it might be an idea to do properly.

Yesterday(and today) I just picked all bees I found lying in the snow


----------



## squarepeg

yes, i was wondering about how many hives you are working with these days. thank you for the replies.

i have tried washing dead bees for mites just this year. in the two deadouts i've had so far this winter i washed about 2% and 4.7% respectively.

like you i'm not sure what these numbers mean exactly, and i wouldn't have thought to try it except that recently a few folks have mentioned doing so on the forum.

hyvää uutta vuotta!

('happy new year!' in finnish for the non-mensa candidates like myself)


----------



## Juhani Lunden

squarepeg said:


> a few folks have mentioned doing so on the forum.
> 
> hyvää uutta vuotta!


can you link the thread?

Hyvää uutta vuotta to you Squarepeg!


----------



## squarepeg

Juhani Lunden said:


> can you link the thread?


no, there was no specific thread, but rather advice given here and there for folks having dead outs (and not understanding the reason for the dead out) to wash the dead bees and look for mites.

i decided to try it myself, and i was interested to see that you have done so as well.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Back in 2009 I had this idea that my secret would be bees flying out with mites to death during winter. Somewhere someone speculated about it, bees sacrificing themselves for the good of the colony. Like they do if they have nosema. 
Sometimes when I picked up 5-10 bees , couple of them had a mite, so I thought to make a large sample. The infestation seemed to be rather high, but because my overall infestation was not known there was little evidence to prove anything. 

I had totally forgotten this incident, when I for some reason counted and washed mites again 2017. Shame that because the original measuring was done just for curiosity, with no proper plan, I have no real results. And even if done properly it would be risky to make any conclusions. 

But it always feels good to not to find that many mites. And it is one way to have contact with bees, even dead ones, during our long winter.


----------



## gww

Juhani


> But it always feels good to not to find that many mites. And it is one way to have contact with bees, even dead ones, during our long winter.



I had lots of dead bees in front of my hives after the first two week cold spell. It does not seem to have gotten worse since that first bunch of dead bees and they are dried up in clumps now. I have this at certain times through the year with certain bees and the only time I am pretty sure of the cause are times when I pull honey and such. Some hives seem to be worse then others. 

I have seen the advice to count mites on dead given to members that ask about the cause of their dead hives just like squarepeg has.

I like hearing about your experience and your results from what you do. I am still at the just looking at the comb for clues stage of bee keeping and not too good at that.

Thanks for posting.
gww


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

squarepeg said:


> i have tried washing dead bees for mites just this year. in the two deadouts i've had so far this winter i washed about 2% and 4.7% respectively.
> 
> like you i'm not sure what these numbers mean exactly, and i wouldn't have thought to try it except that recently a few folks have mentioned doing so on the forum.
> 
> hyvää uutta vuotta!
> 
> ('happy new year!' in finnish for the non-mensa candidates like myself)


sp, what is the purpose of "washing dead bees for mites just this year. in the two deadouts?" Happy New Year!


----------



## squarepeg

Eduardo Gomes said:


> sp, what is the purpose of "washing dead bees for mites just this year. in the two deadouts?" Happy New Year!


feliz Ano Novo to you as well eduardo! 

the purpose was mostly to satisfy curiosity. 

all signs pointed to queen failure as the reason for the deadouts,

but i am open minded enough to consider varroa might be a factor, especially if i would have found large numbers of mites on the bottom board and/or washed from the bees.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

Yes, now I understand the purpose. In my opinio it's a step forward you're giving. Thank you sp!


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Back in 2009 I had this idea that my secret would be bees flying out with mites to death during winter. Somewhere someone speculated about it, bees sacrificing themselves for the good of the colony.


Juhani:

I don't know if it is any help at all, but I have observed the above phenomena with both of the packages I had which succumbed to mite pressure. Specifically, at almost 1 minute intervals, I would see bees flying straight out of the hive during cold weather (i.e. 20 degrees F). Troubled by this, I started catching them with a gloved-hand and saw that every one of them had an attached mite (or two or three). It seems they know they are a liability to the hive and so they make a sacrificial flight.

Ultimately, this is what did in both of the packages- the clusters got so small that they were unable to keep warm and failed during low ambient conditions.

As always, I enjoy reading your posts. 

Russ


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> I don't know if it is any help at all, but I have observed the above phenomena with both of the packages I had which succumbed to mite pressure.


Of course dying hives do this.

The point is if well overwintering colonies have this phenomena, too, as a way to lighten their mite burden. At the moment there is no evidence at all.


----------



## squarepeg

juhani, how do you make up your nucs for the long cold winter there?

i.e. what is the size of the hive and how much honey?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

squarepeg said:


> juhani, how do you make up your nucs for the long cold winter there?
> 
> i.e. what is the size of the hive and how much honey?


Nucs are made by dividing a colony with a whole box, which contains bees, brood and food. Before resistance breeding end of July was ok, now they need more time to get into wintering strength. Nucs are given inseminated queens (wooden hives) or cells (small hives). Insemination takes place in the small hives because they are handy to confine so the queen does not get out.

Lately all my bees have been in my home yard, so no flying bees come with, but they soon recover from that. 
Next summer I need to place them in other locations too. In that situation nucs are always made into another yard.

All hives have two boxes in winter, the wooden ones 2x12=24 frames 140x448mm, small hives 2x6=12 frames 160x220mm. They all have "high bottoms" which enables free drone raising. The drone comb space is about 7 cm high.

Usually most honey is taken out and sugar is given as liquid in August September. This autumn I left the wooden ones 15 kg honey and gave only just over 10 liters of sugar solution. The small hives (small amount, if any) honey was harvested out and gave as much sugar solution as they took. Here in Finland you can order the solution with a very modest freight to your doorstep by truck.


----------



## squarepeg

i'm impressed with the size of the smaller nucs and that they make it through your long cold winters.

is the survival about the same between the wooden nucs and the smaller nucs?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

squarepeg said:


> i'm impressed with the size of the smaller nucs and that they make it through your long cold winters.
> 
> is the survival about the same between the wooden nucs and the smaller nucs?


Yes, very close the same. The smaller hives had moisture problems before, now the new bottom structure allows more air to circulate.


----------



## squarepeg

very cool juhani. many thanks for the replies.

my winters are much milder here. the first tree pollens should be available in a more few weeks or so.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

squarepeg said:


> my winters are much milder here


You have no winters, in our standards


----------



## Michael Palmer

Juhani Lunden said:


> You have no winters, in our standards


----------



## squarepeg

so true juhani and michael. 

very mild compared to both of your winters, which makes management much more forgiving for sure.

the average temperature is just above what our canadian friends set their overwintering warehouses at.

it's enough to get a couple months or more break in brood rearing, while still allowing for an occasional cleansing flight.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

I´m not as slow adopter as Michael Palmer, but *Instagram* is something I have never done before. Web pages are great, and a must have to any business these days, but to put up-to-date information there is just too much work for me. We all try to make things easier as we get older. Instagram allows to make updates, pictures, videos and text very quickly. Not long ago I run into Sam Comfort Instagram page. Pictures and videos which tell more than thousand words and lots of discussion with followers. https://www.instagram.com/anarchyapiaries/

Tadaa! Here it is: https://www.instagram.com/juhanilunden/

Anyone out there who can put a comment or something is more than wellcome!! That would be a learning process for me.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Partial cleansing flights 23.2. 

https://naturebees.wordpress.com/2019/02/25/how-much-is-too-much/


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> https://naturebees.wordpress.com/2019/02/25/how-much-is-too-much/


Juhani:

I enjoyed reading your recent post. There were two things in particular that you mentioned that I am ruminating on:

_"What would be feasible, cost effective mite counting? I would say three mite counts during the main brood rearing season, one month or 6 weeks between the counts. This way the mite population increase can be counted. But even with this system there are flaws. Usually the swarming season and/or queen changes occur in this period. Every time there comes a new queen in the hive, arises the question: “How should the measured failure or success be counted in favor of the new queen versus the old queen?"_

_"It seems that the limit of 5% has remained pretty much unchanged, although the percentage I was writing 2009 was from live bees. I´m somewhat surprised that is has not got any lower during these 10 years. It might be the result of my reservations towards mite counting. Would the right conclusion be that my mite counting has had no effect? One could argue that 10 years with at least some meaningful mite counting the average should be lower. But would my bees be now softer against mites? Or is 5% natural limit in our climate? Lots of questions and no answers."_

Thanks for the update, and have a great evening.

Russ


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Typical spring, no good cleansing flight days so far, but the bees which are in a hurry, come out every time when the wind calms and sun shines. Lately it has been very windy. I´m running for membership in the Finnish Parliament, and it keeps me busy...


----------



## squarepeg

no cleansing flights yet? now that's 'real' winter.

many thanks for the update juhani.


----------



## squarepeg

no cleansing flights yet? now that's 'real' winter.

many thanks for the update juhani.


----------



## Oldtimer

Juhani Lunden said:


> I´m running for membership in the Finnish Parliament, and it keeps me busy...


Wow! Please keep us updated Juhani


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Oldtimer said:


> Wow! Please keep us updated Juhani


I belonged to the 90% percentile who did not get elected. To get elected you need to make yourself famous some way, be known to a large group of people. TV, other media, or some profession/hobby where you meet a lot of people. Great experience, got to meet a lot of people whom I probably would´t have met otherwise. And I got the opportunity to speak and write about issues important to me.

To beekeeping: Cleansing flights are over and willow is already in full bloom! Record early. Some cities had over 19 C yesterday. Normal temperatures in April are around 8-10. 

4/15 dead hives in big ones, one of them was expected, others maybe mite and queen issues. ( I don´t kill old queens, because they are the most valuable to breeding) 
11/24 dead in small hives, mostly because of weakness?, most of them died in March, they were not in contact with food, but I´m not sure if hunger was the reason, because I fed all to same weight and the ones that are alive are doing fine which is shown that their bottoms had relatively few dead bees. Some had queen cells, they may have had too late queen change. 

I suspect the dead ones were weak in the first place, maybe had mite related problems, tried to compensate that with brood rearing and ended up using too much stores. Few of them I could have been able to save, by opening them in the early warm period of February. But obviously I haven't changed my working manners as much as the climate.  I have had the policy of not opening hives before mid May. If a hive, which has been fed well in autumn, cannot make it that far, there is something wrong with their genes. But if the climate changes and makes the bees start brood rearing earlier, I have to reconsider that rule.


----------



## GregB

Juhani Lunden said:


> ... But if the climate changes and makes the bees start brood rearing earlier, I have to reconsider that rule.


Too bad, Juhani, for not getting elected.
On the other hand, you will keep beekeeping at your own pace - a good thing.

In retrospect, looking at my losses this year I feel - it is a good thing to have a mix of different traits and not favor TOO much one or the other.
But also make an effort to NOT rid of a trait that may not be looking very good at the moment.
We need ALL of them for as long as they pass the ultimate test - stay alive.

Depending on a particular winter particulars (which you never know beforehand) - a particular trait may benefit and other trait may be in disadvantage.
You never know which one trait is best at the moment beforehand. 
Especially so since the winters are less predictable as we observe in real-time.
Things are very fluid, but bees are fluid and will adjust too - given a chance.

For example, some of my dead could be actually alive IF they took an extra opportunity in mid-winter to fly out (there were 1-2 moments where some bees did fly and others did not).
Some bees did not fly - as that was just not their wintering trait - their were on the conservative side (generally beneficial and I considered a plus).
Well, ultimately, the conservative bees overfilled and had diarrhea and perished to that (because the winter turned just a little too cold and too long and exceeded their natural limits).


----------



## Juhani Lunden

The mini-hives had perhaps not enough ventilation, some mold building. That is often connected to moisture and moisture is bad for wintering. There was a period of one month when the minihives were all covered with snow, after a heavy and windy storm. Not enough to cover the big ones.


----------



## viesest

Juhani Lunden said:


> View attachment 47675
> 
> 
> The mini-hives had perhaps not enough ventilation, some mold building.


Not just ventilation what is important it is also the place where the condensation will appear. Bottom side of the insulation box should bi well isolated with ventilation holes and top side of the box should bi covered with less thick cover and then the condensation will occur there. Isolation material should be dry, not wet as it is in case of Warre quilt. (IMO)


----------



## Juhani Lunden

The willow blooming has been phenomenal. Never before (since 1977) so early and seldom if ever so warm, calm and good weather to collect. By the looks of flight, more and more bees come home without pollen, a sign that the pollen stores are getting packed up. I haven´t opened hives yet, just the Mini-Plus hives got a quick check when bottoms were changed to summer model. 

Pictures taken half past 7 in the evening, temperature nearly 20C. Usually max of the day this time of year 10-12 C. 
Days will get longer until midsummer. Sommerdays, if sunny and warm, really are a work camp to bees in Finland, sun is up all day.



View attachment 47851


----------



## gww

Juhani
Sounds like the start of a really good year for you. I hope it keeps up.
Cheers
gww


----------



## GregB

Juhani Lunden said:


> The willow blooming has been phenomenal.


The Russian sources report unusually large willow nectar flow this year in North-East region (aided by very favorable weather).
People have been extracting significant willow honey - basically unheard of.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> By the looks of flight, more and more bees come home without pollen, a sign that the pollen stores are getting packed up.


Juhani:

Thank you for the update. It is always interesting to see how different the foraging dynamics are in different areas. You mention your colonies are foregoing pollen gathering already whereas we have had almost two months of off-and-on flying weather here and our colonies are still highly motivated by pollen gathering. I imagine your shorter relative season translates into a shorter but more intense pollen availability and corresponding foraging response?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> Juhani:
> You mention your colonies are foregoing pollen gathering already whereas we have had almost two months of off-and-on flying weather here and our colonies are still highly motivated by pollen gathering.
> I imagine your shorter relative season translates into a shorter but more intense pollen availability and corresponding foraging response?


The number of adult bees is at the lowest point at the moment. On the other hand the number of brood in various stages in very high compared to adult bees. More and more bees are needed to collect water. The growing brood area needs more warming. These facts slow down pollen gathering, but sometimes in weather like this there is simply shortage of space for pollen, which is stored near brood. 

I suppose what happens is that when a bee with pollen load comes home she might get a bit frustrated, because nobody is interested to take and help with storage. Finally, after some time passing, unloading is done to some remote corner. When she dances about where she was, only few is interested. These serve as impulses not to gather pollen any more, or concentrate more on honey.

This situation changes when after couple weeks when number of adult bees is getting higher. I used to have a rule of thump: three weeks after willow blooming start there is a need to put first supers to the best hives. With TF bees this has changed: it takes six weeks. Two things come to this: hives are smaller and bees take out infested brood, which slows down development.


Of course blooming of willow is getting over, pretty fast in weather like this, and dandelions are not yet open, but usually there are lots of cold icy corners in near by forests, which make the blooming last surprisingly long compared to flowers blooming in summer.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

GregV said:


> The Russian sources report unusually large willow nectar flow this year in North-East region (aided by very favorable weather).
> People have been extracting significant willow honey - basically unheard of.


:thumbsup:

Same hear, basically unheard of. 

A strong hive might put up 10 kg weight in one day during willow blooming. All stores are usually consumed in the next cold spell, which can last until midsummer... who knows. 

Evolution has made willow one of the most rewarding flowers because usually bees take a huge risk when going out in cold and windy weather to pollinate.


----------



## lharder

GregV said:


> The Russian sources report unusually large willow nectar flow this year in North-East region (aided by very favorable weather).
> People have been extracting significant willow honey - basically unheard of.


I find your Russian information very interesting Greg. I knew the bees were bringing in pollen, but I didn't know it was so nectar rich.


----------



## GregB

lharder said:


> I find your Russian information very interesting Greg. I knew the bees were bringing in pollen, but I didn't know it was so nectar rich.


Absolutely willow is a heavy nectar source.
To be sure - there are several willow species - some are better than others in nectar flow.
Norway maple too is a good nectar producer (and maybe other maples).

The real issues why this is not known/ignored:
- weather usually prevents heavy foraging of maples and willows anyway
- bee colonies are usually too weak to take advantage of these early flows
- beekeepers do not recognize maple and willow as a target crops (and don't prepare to harvest them specifically - setting up early-forager units)
- and the weather, just to repeat, will usually cancel out the best possible preparations anyway

And so, this year I hear those beekeepers who were ready on stand-by with strong work-forces got really, really lucky - pulling lots of willow honey (not much maple in that region).

PS: my mistake - North-West Russia (not North-East, which is Siberia)


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> This situation changes when after couple weeks when number of adult bees is getting higher. I used to have a rule of thumb: three weeks after willow blooming start there is a need to put first supers to the best hives. With TF bees this has changed: it takes six weeks. Two things come to this: hives are smaller and bees take out infested brood, which slows down development.


Juhani:

These are interesting and helpful observations you have made. I appreciate your detailed feedback. I hope to develop similar seasonal patterns here in my locale to evaluate between seasons and between colonies.

Thank you again for taking the time to outline your observations. I do appreciate it. 

Have a great week.

Russ


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

GregV said:


> The real issues why this is not known/ignored:
> - weather usually prevents heavy foraging of maples and willows anyway
> - bee colonies are usually too weak to take advantage of these early flows
> - beekeepers do not recognize maple and willow as a target crops (and don't prepare to harvest them specifically - setting up early-forager units)
> - and the weather, just to repeat, will usually cancel out the best possible preparations anyway


Which sums up to: bad beekeeping.


----------



## GregB

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Which sums up to: bad beekeeping.


How exactly bad weather is equal to bad beekeeping?
I would not generalize.

One can exert a lot of effort to prepare for the maple/willow flow and still be snowed in.
It is a very risky business - early flows as it requires very early build-up - not always a good idea in cold regions (where the willow is most plentiful).

Our last snow (so far) was on Saturday, April 27th.
Sunday was partly sunny and +10C - snow melted - not exactly good day either for bee foraging.
Monday through Thursday - cold rain.

Willow potential is largely wasted; Maple potential was also largely wasted; Dandelion is blooming several days now - wasted so far due to the weather.

I don't care how good a beekeeper you are - you can only pray so much for good weather.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

One problem with willow crop is that usually there is quite a lot of winter sugar (we feed about 20-30 liters of sugar solution, in order to keep hives alive) still left on the frames, usually either brood or winter sugar. Those frames cannot be extracted. But I don´t say it isn´t possible, if you put supers on strong hives. After warm weather there usually is cold weather and then all stores, willow crop included, are again needed. All these things here and there end up that I personally do not know any beekeeper who has extracted willow honey in Finland. Ever.


----------



## GregB

Here is the video report of willow flow, dated April 24th.
His supers are full, but not yet capped:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2CfUVKjCeY


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Yesterday small signs of robbery, willow is over. 

Weather forecast predicts max 0 C (32 F) and freezing night temperatures for Friday.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

While we might get some more snow in Friday, here is what is happening in Germany, my new blog writing:

https://naturebees.wordpress.com/2019/05/01/treatment-free-beekeeping-is-coming-are-you-ready/


----------



## lharder

That is interesting. The mite threshold of 3 percent is so low considering fall counts with many tf bees in the 15% range. I suspect these bees are resilient to viruses and do not need to control mites to the same extent. I have a feeling that viruses are going to be a far bigger part of the picture and mites will eventually be an afterthought. How is that for an outrageous statement. 

That said, I will be doing early fall brood counts for all my hives this year. I won't have a hard threshold, but will certainly requeen in spring all those with much higher counts than their peers. I hope to shift the curve to the left. I will not raise a queen from 2 year or more survivors unless they have a fall brood count of less than 10 percent even if strong. Then set a tighter criteria as time goes on. I'm thinking 5 percent going into their 2nd winter as a reasonable long term goal.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

All people seem to agree with the virus theory and a lot of studies seem to point into that direction. But what's with the new study, that showed that varroa doesn't feed on the hemolymph but on the fat body of the bees. Doesn't that destroy the varroa spreads viruses theory? Or do viruses really thrive in bees' fat bodies?

https://entomologytoday.org/2019/02/21/inside-look-how-varroa-mite-diet-discovered/


----------



## gww

Bernhard
I was under the impression that the fat body was the immune system of the bee. Kinda makes sense that if the immune system is attacked that the virus might have better luck in being spread.

I do not claim to know anything.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Gray Goose

Juhani Lunden said:


> I have had thoughts about my location. In the old days, when I treated, I got max. 150 kg honey from my home yard, I considered it so poor that I usually kept only 4 hives on it. In comparison I usually had 6 hives on my other yards and I could get 400 kg or more from one place.
> Now I have had up to 25 normal hives and 25 small hives on my home yard. Maybe there is simply lack of pollen. Comparing this home yard to my best places is like comaparing IPM beekeepers to TF beekeepers, it cannot be done.


+1 Every yard is different. Could be the minerals in the ground getting into all the plants. could be natural chemicals in the water. over lapping pollen or nectar flows. there is a myriad of things having an effect. I would recommend trying 4 or 5 yards with 4-6 hives of similar size, then determine where you want to setup. Then,, the natural DCA, Like where Heimo is if he has been there since 2001 their likely was swarms lost. IF they made it in the trees some where, the local population is likely greater than his hives. Take his hive to Florida and in 5 years would it still behave the same? It's location, location, location. Then local drone population. 
GG


----------



## Juhani Lunden

They promised a snow storm, pah! Nothing much, I have seen much more new snow in May, but some locations in Finland made new records: never has the max temperature of the May been so low.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

19th of April I wrote:



Juhani Lunden said:


> Cleansing flights are over and willow is already in full bloom!


Willow started somewhere one week before full bloom, don´t have a note, that would make it 13th of April. It is now six weeks from that, and time to put third boxes to the best ones. Weather is however now very cold(+10 C) and rainy, so I´ll wait couple days. TF bees need double time for their development compared to my old stock. 

Bees not flying and there is some evidence on the landing board what is happening inside:







larvae pulled out, even some almost hatching bees and drones pulled out


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Insemination of the second round queens is in the work list. 

Queen deliveries to Europe have started. 

As planned I have taken bees to several yards outside our home.

Record heat wave, temperatures over 30 C. In one weak Apidea frames melted, it was on a sandy building wall which has been the place for them. Usually they get advantage of it...


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Gray Goose said:


> I would recommend trying 4 or 5 yards with 4-6 hives of similar size, then determine where you want to setup.


That is pretty close what I did: 7 yards, mostly 4 hives per yard. 

I made updates to my diary http://buckfast.fi/publications/writings-presentations/ 
and a new blog writing naturebees.wordpress.com

Summary of 2019
40kg honey/ hive 
10 nucs
80 inseminated queens
first queens ever to Sweden (very strict import laws)


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Summary of 2019


Not to mention being a contributor to several books: https://naturebees.wordpress.com/

I can also appreciate the closing statement on your web diary: _Many beekeepers have asked about my work and some of them have called this scientific breeding effort. Noup, I’m only a very stubborn beekeeper, who has decided to stop treatments. That’s all._

I am glad to hear that your breeding program continues to thrive and that you now have a new market opening up for you.


----------



## squarepeg

excellent report juhani. many thanks for the update.

congrats on the imports to sweden.

are your bees going to be cross-bred with the elgons there?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

squarepeg said:


> are your bees going to be cross-bred with the elgons there?


I don´t know but they seemed to be more interested in line breeding. What exactly they meant by it I don´t know. 

"There are no everlasting lines" said Ulf Gröhn, THE Great man in Swedish buckfast breeding.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Thanks to both of you SP and Litsinger!
Everything is not shining and well, some problems with the Mini-Plus nucs: Queen rearing had a late start, because the drone frames were put in late (end of May, I wanted to ensure that they make them well, which they did). Then I assumed all inseminated queens to lay well after 10 days ( which they did not) and made the timetables and amount of cells of the second round accordingly. These facts combined forced me to even up the brood from nucs where queens were laying well to the nucs were queens were not laying at all (after 10 days). This has created a situation that most of the Mini-Plus nucs are fairly week now. They are even but weaker than normally. Hopefully it will be a good end of September so they have time to catch up. 

P.S. The Ulf Gröhn quotation was from a situation in Sweden in the 1970s´when imports from Buckfast Abbey were done every now and then. The imported queens had hive numbers from Brother Adams hives, 424, 358 etc. When beekeepers got daughters of these and found them excellent (compared to their old bees) they started to speak of "424" and "358". Some of these queens sort of became legends. Year after year beekeepers kept up an illusion that they still had the same lines, and continued speaking of them with the original hive numbers, as if it would be possible to keep such line living for ever. This misunderstanding Ulf Gröhn wanted to straighten up. 
We met couple of times when he was speaking in Finland. Great man and breeder.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Everything is not shining and well, some problems with the Mini-Plus nucs:
> 
> ...
> 
> Some of these queens sort of became legends.


Juhani:

I am both impressed and humbled by the amount of knowledge and skill that one must have to be a consistently good queen breeder. It requires a keen understanding of so many variables, both genetic and practical- so I think it speaks volumes towards your skill that there are people in your region who look to you as their trusted source for the genetic base of their apiary. This is to your credit.

I enjoyed reading your story about legendary queens- it reminded me of how you see this tension in queen breeding where one wants to fix traits by line-breeding while also trying to retain vigor by out-crossing. As they say, the devil's in the details.

I sincerely hope your breeding program becomes the stuff of legends.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Juhani Lunden said:


> Everything is not shining and well, some problems with the Mini-Plus nucs... This has created a situation that most of the Mini-Plus nucs are fairly week now.


One hive in particular was odd: It did not take sugar solution. Usually the reason is queenlessness. I had a look and found a queen laying in l*arger than average brood area*! 

They had food in frames, not so much but enough. 

I think the reason for not taking food was that there were not enough bees of the right age, all bees were busy taking care of larvae. If my theory is right they will take the given sugar solution later. 

Usually bees are crazy for sugar, they literally risk their lives for it. In this particular Mini-Plus hive bees seemed to value brood more that what I have seen. Babylovers.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Time to protect hive from excessive wind. Excluders are used are mouse gards on the bottom. 









The last queens are waiting for their delivery. Never before so late, put some extra insulation and added food frames.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Time to protect hive from excessive wind. Excluders are used are mouse gards on the bottom.
> 
> View attachment 51811
> 
> 
> The last queens are waiting for their delivery. Never before so late, put some extra insulation and added food frames.
> View attachment 51813
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 51815


Neat photos, Juhani. Best of success to you in your overwintering efforts!


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Removing feeders in the same time when tar paper and mouse guards are mounted. The temperature in the picture was just under freezing point, but day highs have been in +5C, colder than normally this time of year.


----------



## NJBeeVet

Do you worry about the sun and rains effect on the insulation material? I was considering the same thing on my hives but wondered if they would have to be painted or protected in some fashion. It's definitely expensive insulation and wouldnt want it to disintegrate in a few seasons


----------



## Juhani Lunden

It is poly-urethan which is covered with aluminium paper. All my hive covers are that material, I paint the sawed edges. Rain or sun has no/minumal effect. Oldest must be over fifteen years old. 

Ants are doing the most damage, sometimes birds too. The covers are about 7cm wider than the boxes, small damage does not matter. If there is a little ant made hole, it does not matter either because there is plastic on top of frames.


----------



## NJBeeVet

Do you ever get issues with moisture rotting awake the woodenware faster in areas where the insulation wraps around the hive?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

NJBeeVet said:


> Do you ever get issues with moisture rotting awake the woodenware faster in areas where the insulation wraps around the hive?


No, and there might be several reasons. Firstly the paper is not on the surface of the boxes. There is a 5 cm high rim on the hive bottom, which is 3 cm wider than the boxes. The paper is stapled into that rim, so it stays 1,5 cm away from the box surface. 

Secondly our winter is cold. During the coldest months there may be temperatures under or near freezing point for months. Rotting does not proceed in freezing temperatures.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

I´m starting a new project which is aimed to widespread my resistant bee material among all beekeepers interested. 

The idea is to sell breeder queens (2 or more) to beekeeper groups and associations, and then, in the Finnish conditions, probably next summer offer insemination service for a fixed price/queen, including travelling costs. Insemination is done in the first place by crossing the offspring of the original breeder queens. In the next years crossing might be done among the original breeders and bees of the group members. This way the original investment does not dilute in free matings, and the price of a breeder queen does not seem too risky, unreasonable or waste of money for the individual.
The formed groups might have other positive effects too, for instance bring beekeepers together, enable them to learn queen rearing skills from each other, creating a mating yard for themselves, thus making insemination useless in the long run, etc. 

The concept is one idea in the big picture how to spread varroa resistant bee material among large groups. 

Today it is clear that varroa resistance is a reality: Around the world it has come up by itself, it has come up man made. Getting bees varroa resistant is the easy part. The tough part is how to get it spread so that eventually in some small areas’ bees can be allowed free matings, and the resistance stays. These smaller areas then grow bigger. 

I have published this program in my blog and sent it by e-mail to the Finnish Beekeepers Association. I have "pre-tested" interest among my friends, there seems to be interested. 
This is also a way to spread correct information. There are prejudiced attitudes toward varroa resistant bees: "varroa resistant bees swarm and sting" "varroa resistant bees don´t bring any honey" "varroa resistant bees make small hives". Some of these claims have some truth value, but on the other hand people tend to take them too seriously and end up doing nothing. 

I hope by the next spring I have something more to write.


----------



## Fusion_power

This is an excellent idea, but will only work if beekeepers adopt resistant bees on a wide basis. There is a critical mass where enough beekeepers use resistant genetics that the population becomes tolerant.

I very much like that you are willing to share genetics you worked on for so long.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> The concept is one idea in the big picture how to spread varroa resistant bee material among large groups.
> 
> ...
> 
> I hope by the next spring I have something more to write.


I agree that this is a noble and ambitious goal, and I applaud you for it.

I look very much forward to reading more about how this project develops in the years to come.

Thank you for sharing.

Russ


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Today it was just over zero temps, couple degrees lower than yesterday, and still going down, plus there was no wind: it was a perfect day to listen to the 26 Mini-Plus hives, how they are doing. 

My hearing is so bad that no chance, but my younger daughter happened to be home, so I asked her. 

There was an even sound from all but two. One had a bit louder sound, and one had like individual bees making noise, not an even buzz. 

The winter is in a very early stage yet, three hardest months to come.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> The winter is in a very early stage yet, three hardest months to come.


Best of success to you with these hives, Juhani.


----------



## AR1

How low do winter temps get where you are in Finland? 
Here, near Chicago, we see -23C a few days in January and very occasionally down to -28C (-10F and -20F). We may get weeks at -17C (Zero F).


----------



## Juhani Lunden

AR1 said:


> How low do winter temps get where you are in Finland?
> Here, near Chicago, we see -23C a few days in January and very occasionally down to -28C (-10F and -20F). We may get weeks at -17C (Zero F).


It varies a lot. Sometimes almost all winter between -10 and +5 C. 

Sometimes extreme winters when temps may be below or near -20C for two weeks. 

Lowest I have seen, if my memory is working well, has been -38 C. Just one night.


----------



## GregB

Juhani Lunden said:


> It varies a lot. Sometimes almost all winter between -10 and +5 C.
> 
> Sometimes extreme winters when temps may be below or near -20C for two weeks.
> 
> Lowest I have seen, if my memory is working well, has been -38 C. Just one night.


The Southern Finland is similar to Chicago due to the "lake effect" - see Baltic Sea (very compatible to the Lake Michigan).
What is NOT compatible - the jet stream direction - which makes the "lake effect" in the Finland stronger (and thus the winter significantly milder for its global latitude).
Add to this the much larger Atlantic "lake effect", which explains how the much more northern Finish coast is still similar to the more southern US Great Lakes' region.

PS: I happened to spend enough time in St. Petersburg in winter - one nasty winter (at very mild temps, the humidity will get you to the bones); 
similar to the winter on Lake Michigan cost;
a long-time resident of Chicago was with me one time - he confirmed the same.

Though the Michigan lake effect does not go far inland; really only few miles.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Not much happening with bees.

There has almost been no winter this winter. January temperatures broke the all time records in 60% of south and central Finland. The biggest lake near us got frozen later than ever, 

and it melted away after two days. 


I made a new blog writing. It is about race breeding. 
https://naturebees.wordpress.com/

Thanks to Bernhard Heuvel!


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> I made a new blog writing. It is about race breeding.
> https://naturebees.wordpress.com/


Very interesting write-up, Juhani. Thank you for sharing.

Winter has been very mild for most of the continental US as well.

Russ


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Situation unchanged, winter continues. Actually we have now more snow than ever before this winter. 

While waiting for the spring I keep busy with other works, in the forests mainly. Plus I do some tax related accounting work in February mainly. 



And a new blog writing, special thanks to MSL! Have always been an admirer of Martin Luther King.

https://naturebees.wordpress.com/2020/03/03/i-have-a-dream/


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> And a new blog writing, special thanks to MSL!


Juhani:

Great post- I enjoyed reading it.

I do hope that your statement: 

_The biggest problem to make Treatment Free Beekeeping a real option for all is not the absence of varroa resistant bees, but the dispersal of good genetic material._

Emerges as the biggest obstacle to distributing TF widely. It will mean that sustainable progress will have been made on the genetic front.

Thanks again for posting the write-up, and good luck with your remaining overwintering efforts.

Russ


----------



## msl

nice!
as a correction the Keffus rig is made out of foam insulation not wood and is a single piece. 
One rip cut in to a strip (4'-8'), one dato pass to cut the channel. No need to cut slots for the cell cup/holder to slide in it just presses into the foam Makes a lot very fast


----------



## Juhani Lunden

msl said:


> nice!
> as a correction the Keffus rig is made out of foam insulation not wood and is a single piece.
> One rip cut in to a strip (4'-8'), one dato pass to cut the channel. No need to cut slots for the cell cup/holder to slide in it just presses into the foam Makes a lot very fast
> View attachment 53815



one rip? 

one dato?


Foam insulation

Is that the right word to describe that material? If so; I´ll make the correction right away.

I was looking at the ABJ January 2009 article, page52.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

First decent cleansing flight day today, about +10 C, sun and only moderate wind. 

No dead ones in the big hives. One clearly lighter (weighing by hand) hive was given 1 food frame.


31% dead in the Mini-Plus nucleus hives, but that was not a surprise.
Queen rearing 2019 was started too late, inseminated queens start laying later than free mated and the tendency of my TF stock to develop slowly, all these factors ended up that I made the following note 7th of September 2019: 

"The strength of Mini-Plus nucleus hives is not anywhere satisfactory. They are fairly even (on the weak side), only two are very weak."

Note from 5th of October:
"Looking at the Mini-Plus hive bottoms, all fairly equal, but weaker than usually. Couple very weak, couple strong ones."


----------



## squarepeg

good report juhani and congrats on your overwintering success. 

many thanks for keeping us updated.


----------



## Saltybee

For all of the other confused by Kefuss rig. It is a 2 day old QC shipper on blog. https://naturebees.wordpress.com/2020/03/03/i-have-a-dream/


----------



## msl

"one rip" one rip cut on a table saw creating the strip of foam insulation 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T99ZeYOJwTM

"one dato pass to cut the channel." dato blade stack (like one would use to cut fame rests) cutting the channel in the strip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN90hAcPU7I


----------



## Juhani Lunden

On Monday 4th of May there was for the first time this spring pollen from willow coming in. It had started blooming earlier but weather conditions were too cold and windy. This week the bees had several good days to strengthen their pollen stores. 

In order to get a general idea what is the situation I made on Thursday my first round opening hives. I opened them only if they seemed to be light and empty frames (on the sides) were accessible. Drone frames need to get in place by the end of next week. Now I have an idea which hives are used as drone raisers, and which ones for breeding. 

Because of cold weather coming I added food frames whenever I could take an empty frame(or two/three) away from the hive wall. To minimize disturbance I did not look at the brood area unless there were reason to believe something is not right. One very weak hive needed to be looked at, but it had a queen, so ended up just placing a food frame besides the brood area. 

In the Mini-Plus nucs two additional dead ones were found, one had maybe starved beside food, the other one died of weakness. Most of the Mini-Plus hives had plenty of stores, but couple hives, queens were crossings with fairly new material from Central Europe, had low stores.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> On Monday 4th of May there was for the first time this spring pollen from willow coming in.


Juhani:

Enjoyed reading your update. It is interesting to me to consider how much longer your colonies have to overwinter versus those of us at lower latitudes.

If you don't mind me asking, I am curious as to your objectives for the importation of the Central European stock? I assume you had a very specific purpose for bringing these genetics in?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> If you don't mind me asking, I am curious as to your objectives for the importation of the Central European stock? I assume you had a very specific purpose for bringing these genetics in?



Josef Koller wanted to give me 2 queens. Both one drone inseminations made in their VSH breeding project. 

https://www.buckfast-bayern.de/neu/buckfastbiene/vsh-projekt/vsh-projekt-2018/


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Josef Koller wanted to give me 2 queens. Both one drone inseminations made in their VSH breeding project.
> 
> https://www.buckfast-bayern.de/neu/buckfastbiene/vsh-projekt/vsh-projekt-2018/


Juhani:

I sincerely apologize for my delay in reply- I have been away from the computer of late.

I looked around at the Buckfast Bayern Association website and it seems like quite an ambitious project with stringent standards.

I enjoyed reading how their ethos is centered around Dr. Ruttner's obituary of Brother Adam: 

_“This is how Brother ADAM has done important things in his life, both for beekeeping practice and for science. His life was characterized by a total dedication to his profession. The full extent of his achievements will only be recognizable as soon as the smoke has evaporated from the current, often not very factual debates.”_

I sincerely hope that this breeding stock proves to be a real boon to your operation.

Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Eynard, S.E.; Sann, C.; Basso, B.; Guirao, A.; Le Conte, Y.; Servin, B.; Tison, L.; Vignal, A.; Mondet, F. *Descriptive Analysis of the Varroa Non-reproduction Trait in Honey Bee Colonies and Association with Other Traits Related to Varroa Resistance*. Preprints 2020, 2020070166 (doi: 10.20944/preprints202007.0166.v1).

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0166/v1

Abstract

In the current context of worldwide honey bee colony losses, among which the varroa mite plays a major role, hope to improve honey bee health lies in part in the breeding of varroa resistant colonies. To do so, methods used to evaluate varroa resistance need better understanding. Repeatability and correlations between traits such as Mite Non-Reproduction (MNR), Varroa Sensitive Hygiene (VSH) and hygienic behaviour are poorly known, due to practical limitations and to their underlying complexity. We investigate (i) the variability, (ii) repeatability of the MNR score and (iii) its correlation with other resistance traits. To reduce the inherent variability of MNR scores, we propose to apply an Empirical Bayes correction. On the short-term (ten days) MNR had a modest repeatability of 0.4 whereas on the long- term (a month) it had a low repeatability of 0.2, similar to other resistance traits. Within our dataset there was no correlation between MNR and VSH. Although MNR is amongst the most popular varroa resistance estimates in field studies, its underlying complex mechanism is not fully understood. Its lack of correlation with better described resistance traits and low repeatability suggest that MNR need to be interpreted cautiously, especially when used for selection.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Thanks Bernhard! I have been advertising a lot Arista Foundation work, here in BS too, telling for instance about their VSH tests. 

BUT: Is it actually MNR (mite non reproduction) tests they are doing?


----------



## Litsinger

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Eynard, S.E.; Sann, C.; Basso, B.; Guirao, A.; Le Conte, Y.; Servin, B.; Tison, L.; Vignal, A.; Mondet, F. *Descriptive Analysis of the Varroa Non-reproduction Trait in Honey Bee Colonies and Association with Other Traits Related to Varroa Resistance*. Preprints 2020, 2020070166 (doi: 10.20944/preprints202007.0166.v1).
> 
> https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0166/v1


Bernhard:

Thank you for posting this pre-print. I finally had an opportunity to sit-down and read it, and as fate would have it, the final peer-reviewed version looks to have been published yesterday:

https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4450/11/8/492

It appears it was quite a robust study- encompassing 275 colonies over a period of three years. In their description of the experimental design they mentioned, _The colonies, originating from diverse sources, were not selected during the experiment and thus only experience natural selection. However, colonies were chosen to allow for varroa resistance inference, which means that some colonies entered the experiment *because they had shown resistance or were expected to be resistant*. The colonies’ genetic backgrounds were not controlled._

It would be interesting to see how this group fared against the non-selected stock.

I also appreciated the feedback on the distinction between SMR and MNR and how this factor appears to be relatively consistently expressed regardless of mite load, suggesting that the mites themselves may be contributing to the reduced reproductive success:

_The terminology SMR implies an active contribution of an external agent to the reproduction failure of varroa, even though such failure can be intrinsic to the varroa, as described above. This is why the new terminology, mite non-reproduction (MNR), has been recently proposed and will be used thereafter in this study.

In our study, we accounted for colony dynamics, colony management, and location of the hives, none of which significantly impacted MNR. Mite infestation in the brood cells and on adult bees did not affect the MNR trait either. This corresponds with the observations of different authors, stating that the link between MNR and mite infestation levels is not universal._


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> ...consistently expressed regardless of mite load, suggesting that the mites themselves may be contributing to the reduced reproductive success:
> 
> In our study, we accounted for colony dynamics, colony management, and location of the hives, none of which significantly impacted MNR. Mite infestation in the brood cells and on adult bees did not affect the MNR trait either. This corresponds with the observations of different authors, stating that the link between MNR and mite infestation levels is not universal.[/I]





Juhani Lunden said:


> I have been advertising a lot Arista Foundation work, here in BS too, telling for instance about their VSH tests.
> 
> BUT: Is it actually MNR (mite non reproduction) tests they are doing?


I misunderstood. My bad.


MNR is a rather static factor, which does not change very much and is affected (mainly) by mites?


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> MNR is a rather static factor, which does not change very much and is affected (mainly) by mites?


Juhani:

While I will readily admit my limited-understanding on the subject, I believe the main impetus of the change in acronyms from SMR to MNR is simply to incorporate new scholarship which suggests that the mites themselves are contributing to the non-reproduction. I am not certain if anyone has suggested that it is mainly a mite-driven phenomena, but only that it appears that the mites are contributing along with the bees.

Big picture, it seems that the main take-aways from this research are:

_We believe that the MNR measurement is indispensable to the continuation of comprehensive research on bee resistance to the varroa mite in the future as well as contributing to a successful and pertinent selection of resistant honey bees. However, we are in urgent need of a standard protocol to be used worldwide. Therefore, we aim in this study to validate an MNR protocol and point out the constraints and opportunities of this method to encourage its use in the future._

_ In conclusion, the MNR measurement remains one of the few measurements for varroa resistance in honey bee populations, which can be achieved in the field on a relatively large scale. Although time consuming and tedious to implement, it also gives a lot of different information which can help us to better understand the control mechanisms that bees use to counteract the varroa mite. However, the results here highlight the need for a precise protocol using enough single infested cells (>35), performed multiple times over a short period of time to provide solid estimates. The weak points should be taken into consideration when designing an experiment, and a combination of different measurements to correctly assess honey bee resistance like mite infestation levels (inside and outside the brood cells) and genetic analysis could be additionally taken into account when analyzing the varroa resistance of a colony. To date, no breeding programs aiming at obtaining resistant honey bees have produced commercially available colonies. We believe that using the MNR measurement with a new awareness of its weaknesses and strengths could be an important tool for successful future selection programs of resistant honey bees._


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Litsinger said:


> While I will readily admit my limited-understanding on the subject, I believe the main impetus of the change in acronyms from SMR to MNR...[/I]


Are you sure MNR has replaced SMR???

I see it this way:

SMR = suppressed mite reproduction caused by the bees (method unknown, probably some chemical influence as proven in Kefuss bees)
VSH = varroa sensitive hygiene caused by the bees (methods: opening and recapping cells, removing infected larvae)
MNR = mites not reproducing, a rather constant trait of the mites



Litsinger said:


> To date, no breeding programs aiming at obtaining resistant honey bees have produced commercially available colonies.


Meaning commercially available *queens*, I suppose.

Well... packagebeeseurope.com is producing some 50 000 a year, here some Lunden bees and VSH bees:
https://www.packagebeeseurope.com/en/regine/api-regine-buckfast/


----------



## AR1

Juhani Lunden said:


> Meaning commercially available *queens*, I suppose.
> 
> Well... packagebeeseurope.com is producing some 50 000 a year, here some Lunden bees and VSH bees:
> https://www.packagebeeseurope.com/en/regine/api-regine-buckfast/


I read the link. They appear to be saying their bees are only slightly resistant to varroa, and that buyers at best can expect to use one less treatment per year. It is a little hard to understand the language.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

AR1 said:


> I read the link. They appear to be saying their bees are only slightly resistant to varroa, and that buyers at best can expect to use one less treatment per year.


:thumbsup:

That is correct. 
Our bees in very high bee density and Southern Europe climate conditions are doing their best but...


But to say that "no breeding programs aiming at obtaining resistant honey bees have produced commercially available colonies", is, IMO, a bit misleading.


----------



## AR1

You are 100% TF, correct? Could you give me an idea what you consider the most important factors in maintaining live hives? You must have posted this in the past but I wonder if you can sum it up.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

AR1 said:


> You are 100% TF, correct? Could you give me an idea what you consider the most important factors in maintaining live hives? You must have posted this in the past but I wonder if you can sum it up.


Yes correct, have been since 2008. Years 2001-2008 diminishing treatment (1 OAD/ autumn, year 2001 35ml -> year 2008 3ml)

To sum it up: genetics. Environment has a role too, but it is important to understand, and speaking about the experiences of other 3000 beekeepers, that although we in Finland have a long winter ( usually so far...), without treatments and even with treatments bees end up dead here too. Not in one summer but two summers, roughly said so. I have had many contacts of desperate beekeepers. Varroa resistace is finally getting recognized as a fact, not just a fairy tail. 

The 19 year ordeal I have had has included several times when I have lost 70% of my hives. So there has been severe selection of the fittest. After the final drop I had 4 good hives (and about 10 dinks), three of them were very much related (not all sisters, but from one same mother). 

Then 2015-2016 I had this silly idea of ROOTs system. That was and idea of Josef Koller, that we could create TF bees with free mating. I struggled somehow forward, but unable to make increase and weak hives, maybe bad weathers were affecting too.

After starting to inseminate all queens and evaluating in mini hives (idea of Brother Adams) I have had much better success. In fact last winter did not lose one hive. The most severe problem has been drone layers. If some hive gets angry, there are problems, but usually bees solve them somehow before autumn. If queen does not want to lay eggs/ bees do not let her lay there are problems. Action: changing queen helps. But of course, not all queens are winners even they are inseminated.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Are you sure MNR has replaced SMR???


Juhani:

My apologies for the delay in reply- I have been away from the computer. In short, I am not sure that that MNR has replaced SMR but the paper indicates the following:

_The terminology SMR implies an active contribution of an external agent to the reproduction failure of varroa, even though such failure can be intrinsic to the varroa, as described above. This is why the new terminology, mite non-reproduction (MNR), has been recently proposed and will be used thereafter in this study._

The paper cross-references the following research which defines the terms as follows:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002075192030093X?via=ihub

_Mite non-reproduction (MNR)- Failure of a foundress mite to produce at least one adult, mated female that will enter the colony’s mite population when the developing bee emerges from the cell as an adult bee. A foundress mite will not be successful at reproduction if she does not lay any eggs (infertile), lays only one egg, produces no male offspring or begins laying her eggs too late in relation to the pupal development.

Suppressed mite reproduction (SMR)- Redefined as only cases of mite non-reproduction that are regulated by traits expressed by the brood._

So I would understand this to mean that MNR has been applied to represent what was previously defined as SMR, and that SMR has been given a new definition that explicitly relates to brood-driven resistance mechanisms.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Thanks Litsinger!

Here is the latest of my blog:

https://naturebees.wordpress.com/2020/08/10/wild-bees/


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani Lunden said:


> Here is the latest of my blog:
> 
> https://naturebees.wordpress.com/2020/08/10/wild-bees/


Great story, Juhani. I am glad you were able to make increase off this colony and I will be interested to see if these genetics prove worthwhile to incorporate into your breeding program.

I wonder if part of the reason we don't see more unmanaged colonies is simply because of how inconspicuous they often are- until they swarm or are stumbled upon by accident.

Here's hoping all your Fall beekeeping efforts are successful.

Russ


----------



## Juhani Lunden

My latest blog writing:

https://naturebees.wordpress.com/20...bees-when-do-you-know-for-sure-you-have-them/


----------



## Saltybee

Juhani Lunden said:


> My latest blog writing:
> 
> https://naturebees.wordpress.com/20...bees-when-do-you-know-for-sure-you-have-them/


Good read.


----------



## AR1

Saltybee said:


> Good read.


Agree. Keep posting Juhani, please. Much appreciated.


----------



## Litsinger

Good write-up, Juhani. Congratulations on building a successful and resilient breeding stock.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Saltybee said:


> Apparently you were facing the cop. Not back to them. 7 shots in the back is attempted murder. ( and poor shooting as well poor choices that allowed him to get to the car door.)


In Finland cops are trained to stop a suspect in an emergency situation by shooting in the legs. If the do not comply orders. The threshold to use a gun is VERY high. The use of a remote stun gun (not killing, just falling you down) has however increased lately. 


The clip above is from a closed thread. Lately I have been thinking what is the point for me being here in BeeSource. It is taking quite a lot of time to follow and comment the threads. What do I get? Is it enough? 

My nature tells me to teach and change the world for better.

I am worried, among other things about climate change and the state of US, I thought by writing I could do something. My drop in an ocean. Wishful thinking. All I got was shouting and name calling, even though I tried to to as polite as possible. 

I closed my Facebook and Twitter accounts. The reason to leave was that I used too much time with them and I got worried about their impact in my brains and mind. And their impact in general on our societies. How they create bubbles and divide people into fighting groups.

If you wish to contact me please write e-mail 
[email protected]

or by Instagram (juhanilunden)


----------



## Saltybee

Understood. A loss.


----------



## LarryBud

Juhani Lunden said:


> In Finland cops are trained to stop a suspect in an emergency situation by shooting in the legs. If the do not comply orders. The threshold to use a gun is VERY high. The use of a remote stun gun (not killing, just falling you down) has however increased lately.
> 
> 
> The clip above is from a closed thread. Lately I have been thinking what is the point for me being here in BeeSource. It is taking quite a lot of time to follow and comment the threads. What do I get? Is it enough?
> 
> My nature tells me to teach and change the world for better.
> 
> I am worried, among other things about climate change and the state of US, I thought by writing I could do something. My drop in an ocean. Wishful thinking. All I got was shouting and name calling, even though I tried to to as polite as possible.
> 
> I closed my Facebook and Twitter accounts. The reason to leave was that I used too much time with them and I got worried about their impact in my brains and mind. And their impact in general on our societies. How they create bubbles and divide people into fighting groups.
> 
> If you wish to contact me please write e-mail
> [email protected]
> 
> or by Instagram (juhanilunden)


I'm not sure how this got into the treatment free discussion but again my friend, you drift sometimes into politics. You should come to the States sometime and drive across it. As far as shooting, I survived 3 trips to the middle east and was trained to defend myself with direct shots to the head. Reason? First, you need to eliminate the threat to you and your team, second, only one story afterwards. At the time, I could do a 4 inch pattern at 800 meters with my M24 338. I've always planned on coming home. I still hunt with a 700, but only for dinner.


----------



## GregB

Juhani Lunden said:


> My latest blog writing:
> 
> https://naturebees.wordpress.com/20...bees-when-do-you-know-for-sure-you-have-them/


+1; 
Good read.


> My hive count went from 150 to 4 before the turn.


Unfortunately, my count went from 19 to 0 over the last winter.
Bee migration and importation levels around here are just crazy.


----------



## GregB

Juhani Lunden said:


> .....
> 
> I closed my Facebook and Twitter accounts.........
> 
> If you wish to contact me please write e-mail
> [email protected]
> 
> or by Instagram (juhanilunden)


Good - killing the FB/Twitter accounts.
I would kill Instagram also.

I have never had these and have no intention to participate in that techno non-sense.
Unfortunately, the BS is looking more like FB/Twitter also (too inviting for use-less posts and waste of time of oneself and others).

All is needed - one-directional public blog without public comments - the comments just turn into the FB-like mess.
Such blog is fine and sufficient, IF one wants to still contribute something for the public - I hope that is the case for Juhani Lunden blog.
When people contact by email, they are more deliberate and that is usually worthwhile communication.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani:

While I will miss your insights and contributions here based on your significant experience and success in resistance breeding, I certainly appreciate the need to focus one's time and attention in the avenues that afford the best return on the investment. It has been a pleasure communicating with you on Beesource, and I sincerely wish you and your family all the best.

Russ

p.s. I saw this trap-out in progress today and thought of your recent post about the bees in your barn. This colony is set-up in a tree less than 100 feet from the park bench where I spend most of my lunch breaks and I was never aware of their presence.


----------



## squarepeg

more on the smr story:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...tance_in_European_Honey_Bees_Apis_mellifera_L

"Several colonies from our dataset display high SMR scores indicating that this trait is present within the European honey bee populations. The trait is highly variable between colonies and some countries, but no major differences could be identified between countries for a given genotype, or between genotypes in different countries. This study shows the potential to increase selective breeding efforts of V. destructor resistant populations."


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> more on the smr story:
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/public...tance_in_European_Honey_Bees_Apis_mellifera_L


Great post, SP. I enjoyed reading the research paper. A few things stood out to me:

Standardizing the testing protocol

_The first goal was to standardize and validate the SMR evaluation method, and then to compare the SMR trait between the different populations. Our results indicate that it is necessary to examine at least 35 brood cells infested by a single mite to reliably estimate the SMR score of any given colony.

Even when the scoring was based on 35 single-infested cells, there remained considerable variation around the true SMR score._

The complex interaction between host and parasite

_Several different mechanisms may trigger the SMR phenotype and may originate from host and/or parasite features. SMR can indirectly result from adult bee behaviors such as varroa-sensitive hygiene (VSH) or recapping behaviors. Mechanisms of physiology or behavior of the brood may also influence the ability of varroa to reproduce, but remain unknown. Parasite features may also influence varroa reproduction, such as variation in mite genotypes, or the physiological status of mites invading cells.

The failure of mites to reproduce, regardless if depending on host and/or parasite mechanisms or environmental factors, can be characterized by three different features of mite reproduction: infertility of the mite, i.e., total absence of offspring, absence of the male, which will prevent the mating of the female offspring, or a delay in egg laying and/or offspring development which will prevent mites from reaching the adult stage before the developing bee emerges._

No correlation between mite load and SMR score

_Overall, no correlation was found between the SMR score and the proportion of absent males, infertile foundresses, or delayed reproduction.

Despite high infection rates found in some colonies (up to 80% in the brood), no correlation was observed between mite loads and SMR scores in the present study._

Selection precepts

_Colonies from preselected populations with increased varroa resistance displayed a significantly higher SMR score than unselected ones. 

… the SMR scores of colonies originating from preselected stock were consistently and significantly higher than the scores of unselected genotypes. The present scores observed in both the French surviving population (0.47 ± 0.12) and the VSH hybrid genotype (0.57 ± 0.11) were in the range of previous results from the French population (0.59 ± 0.02) and that reported from the mite-surviving population from Gotland (0.48 ± 0.02).

When initiating any breeding attempts on the SMR trait in a given environment, it is important to screen the local population for the presence and variability of SMR and thereby evaluate its potential for selection._

Summary

_SMR stands as a complex trait, as it can be triggered by several host and/or parasite mechanisms, influenced by a wide variety of environmental factors, and remains challenging to phenotype accurately in the field._


----------



## msl

I saw a lot of holes and questions...........me thinks someone is angling for funding



> Suppression of mite reproduction is considered a colony-level trait and defined by the proportion of worker brood cells containing non-reproducing mother mites. The trait was found to be heritable [30] and was utilized in U.S. breeding programs since the late 1990s [31–33


ok so 30-33 are all about VSH....
but then they say VSH isn't SMR


> SMR can indirectly result from adult bee behaviors such as varroa-sensitive hygiene (VSH) or recapping behaviors


then say


> Suppression of mite reproduction (SMR) has been recognized as an important trait for survival in naturally resistant honey bee populations [24,28] and has been successfully implemented in breeding programs in the U.S. [22,31,43,44].


no the us programs used VSH... thats why the SMR was dropped when the underlying mechanism was shown...

however in this work, they don't identify what causes SMR, or rule out VSH witch seem odd 



> We also included 23 colonies from two populations that were preselected for varroa resistance: A. m. mellifera hybrids from a French varroa-surviving population [17] and colonies containing A. m. mellifera hybrid queens artificially inseminated with semen collected from colonies of a VSH (Varroa sensitive hygiene) breeding program





> the SMR scores of colonies originating from preselected stock were consistently and significantly higher than the scores of unselected genotypes. The present scores observed in both the French surviving population (0.47 ± 0.12) and the VSH hybrid genotype (0.57 ± 0.11) were in the range of previous results from the French population (0.59 ± 0.02) and that reported from the mite-surviving population from Gotland (0.48 ± 0.02).


ok so out VSH outcrossed with non select stock performed better then bonded bred to bonded stock. Not a huge surprise there, nore the fact they had top scores human breeding will concentrate a trait better then nature .... imagine if it had been a vsh to vsh 

even more instring is they point to US research on VSH to claim SMR is heritable..

I can't imagine trying to find SIC in a VSH level breeder... the need to find 35 infested cells in a colony with a 1% mite load in the brood is insane that's 3500 cell to open, and even then they are saying it highly varibuil. Most VSH breeders are TF the mite levels are that low, in fact many need to maintain "package" bees as mite farms so they can seed colonies with mites to get levels up enuf to test
the US Method of scoring VSH has long stood the test of time, proving very repeatable to the point a colony only has to be scored ONCE !!
150 cells, done! on to the next hive
http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static...018pdf.pdf?token=fqamMIGHMrHdV8peu3JBcsBD6yM=

I do think its funny they push all this extra work with no backing for it, and still reference [31] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0413-7

witch showed breeder selection by a simple end of season mite count was an effective way to select for VSH


> The selection we used (i.e., finding colonies with low end-of-season mite infestations) proved to be useful in lieu of the technically difficult measurements (i.e., measuring rates of hygienic removal of mite-infested brood or percentages of reproducing mites) needed to directly select for high expression of VSH. The technical methods are not well suited for use by commercial bee breeders. Our production of Pol-line honey bee stock using industry-appropriate methods may encourage adoption and further selection of mite-resistant bees with desirable beekeeping characteristics.


----------



## Litsinger

Insightful feedback, MSL. I suppose I always assume that research funding entreaties are woven into every publication insofar as this seems to be the primary means that researchers are judged by their institution- namely amount of funding they can secure.

That said, it seems that all contemporary research continues to point back to the simple but fundamental idea that low relative mite population growth irrespective of mechanism(s) is the primary factor we should focus on in TF breeding programs (not to exclude others).

Certainly, the approach outlined inthe Danka study of selecting colonies, "that had low mite infestations and large populations of adult bees" is easy enough to implement, at least as a concept.

Seems to underscore the distinction between resistance and tolerance that underlies the breeding efforts in so many flora and fauna.


----------



## squarepeg

https://www.researchgate.net/public...fera_for_Resistance_against_Varroa_Destructor


----------



## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> https://www.researchgate.net/public...fera_for_Resistance_against_Varroa_Destructor


Great article, SP. Thank you for sharing. A few things I found interesting:

_The mite infestation measurements BINF1-3 (mid of August) were highly repeatable, with correlation ranging from over 0.50 to 0.85.

Difficulties in associating hygienic behavior with mite infestation may also arise from the fact that bees selectively remove brood infested with mites carrying DWV, while mites with low viral loads could be neglected.

Concerning the mite infestation traits BINFa and MPG, our results suggested that BINFa should be preferred over MPG because of higher repeatability and higher correlations to behavioral traits.

BINFa was included because this was clearly independent from NMF, but MPG was not.

… in honeybee breeding for Varroa resistance we face the choice from parameters that are easy to measure, but provide a low contribution to the breeding objective (because of low heritability or low genetic correlation with objective traits), and traits that are tedious to measure, but contribute more (because of high heritability or high genetic correlation).

To select for mite infestation we suggest three traits, mite infestation in summer adjusted for initial mite infestation in spring by regression, exponential mite population growth in summer and brood infestation. Together these traits can give a reliable picture of resistance to mite population development. Repeated measurement of mite infestation is strongly recommended as it enables a more accurate estimate of mite population growth._


----------



## Fusion_power

The Achilles heel of these type measurements is that they don't account for mite bomb colony that disperses huge numbers of mites into any colony that robs them. You can only get valid measurements when colonies about to be overwhelmed with mites are removed from the area. Keep a close eye on all colonies and remove the varroa super producers.


----------



## msl

disagree
yes bombs in the fall will skew your numbers in the fall, but many programs, including the one under discussion the colonies have been treated at that point to abide by law/protect valuable breeding stock and resources for spring to test the next gen at that point.. the measurements have been taken and the bombs put down 

with your 4 months or so of spring and summer numbers you will be able to see the mite growth curve... there will be some "normal" ones with the mite load doubling every month, some mite candy ones were its more, and (hopfully) some resistant ones where its less


----------



## HaplozygousNut

Juhani Lunden said:


> In Finland cops are trained to stop a suspect in an emergency situation by shooting in the legs. If the do not comply orders. The threshold to use a gun is VERY high. The use of a remote stun gun (not killing, just falling you down) has however increased lately.
> 
> 
> The clip above is from a closed thread. Lately I have been thinking what is the point for me being here in BeeSource. It is taking quite a lot of time to follow and comment the threads. What do I get? Is it enough?
> 
> My nature tells me to teach and change the world for better.
> 
> I am worried, among other things about climate change and the state of US, I thought by writing I could do something. My drop in an ocean. Wishful thinking. All I got was shouting and name calling, even though I tried to to as polite as possible.
> 
> I closed my Facebook and Twitter accounts. The reason to leave was that I used too much time with them and I got worried about their impact in my brains and mind. And their impact in general on our societies. How they create bubbles and divide people into fighting groups.
> 
> If you wish to contact me please write e-mail
> [email protected]
> 
> or by Instagram (juhanilunden)


Yes, I agree. Spending time on the computer is bad for the eyes and mind. It also takes all your time, and makes you feel empty after doing it.

Yes, climate is changing to warmer now. We used to be zone 7 in Wake Forest, NC, but now we are zone 8. A farmer we keep bees here in Wake Forest, North Carolina said that he had a rain gauge without rain for a month and a half during summer. He checked to see if North Carolina was getting a drought, but found that it was normal amounts of rain that year. So, he asked weather people about it and they told him that yes, there is a strip of land from Youngsville to Durham that is dry. The weather people said that they didn't tell people because they didn't want people to panic. Last year, during a dry time in summer, my father commented that we didn't have rain for a month it seemed. I would hear and see many thunderstorms in the distance, and it would be humid in the air the whole time without rain. We didn't get the rains that were forecasted... Eventually we got a hurricane that brought a lot of rain last summer and it rained several days after that. 

The farmer thought that the humidity would cycle out of our dry area and so it is dry here in Wake Forest. In the city though they may get more rain because of the warmer temperature from the city. The farmer joked that he just happened to be in the middle of the dry climate area between Youngsville and Durham.

Tallahassee, Florida has been down to -2F before, and now I don't think they get that cold?


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregV said:


> Absolutely willow is a heavy nectar source.
> To be sure - there are several willow species - some are better than others in nectar flow.
> Norway maple too is a good nectar producer (and maybe other maples).
> 
> The real issues why this is not known/ignored:
> 
> weather usually prevents heavy foraging of maples and willows anyway
> bee colonies are usually too weak to take advantage of these early flows
> beekeepers do not recognize maple and willow as a target crops (and don't prepare to harvest them specifically - setting up early-forager units)
> and the weather, just to repeat, will usually cancel out the best possible preparations anyway
> 
> And so, this year I hear those beekeepers who were ready on stand-by with strong work-forces got really, really lucky - pulling lots of willow honey (not much maple in that region).
> 
> PS: my mistake - North-West Russia (not North-East, which is Siberia)


Would perhaps A. m. mellifera (black bee) be better for foraging in the bad weather when it is cold, rainy, or cloudy? And so be better for these early season nectar flows of maple or willow in northern climates?

I looked at Juhani Lunden's photo of a colony of bees and a few dark individuals look similar to German black bees. They have thinner bands:








Visit to Terje Reinertsen


In early June there was a strange number in my handy. A call coming from abroad? I answered. It was Terje Reinertsen from Norway, he asked me to come over for a visit. Yes! I booked fer…




naturebees.wordpress.com


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> Would perhaps A. m. mellifera (black bee) be better for foraging in the bad weather when it is cold, rainy, or cloudy? And so be better for these early season nectar flows of maple or willow in northern climates?


Not really.
Building up too early in those regions is very risk prone and naturally will be punished much more often than rewarded.

The beekeeper I referred to above - as having harvested a nice crop of willow honey - he runs Carnica.
He simply manipulated his early-foraging units to artificially boom earlier than normal.
It was a "just in case" project and it panned out OK that time around.
I am pretty sure he already has the supers installed again - just to be on the stand-by.

So assuming that somehow the Northern bee will naturally take advantage of early flows to the fullest extent possible is mistaken. They can not afford to be that risky when left to their own devices.
If anything, you can much easier trick the Italians to be building up for the potential willow honey crop (which has a low probability to happen due to very shifty weather).


----------



## Litsinger

Our friend @Juhani Lunden has a cool video up about his log gum hive, complete with super:


----------



## GregB

I kind of left alone my log hive project. 
Thinking to maybe convert them into bird houses. 
Too busy for them.


----------



## NJBeeVet

Litsinger said:


> Our friend @Juhani Lunden has a cool video up about his log gum hive, complete with super:


I wonder how he hollowed out those logs. There seems to be no easy way to do it other than plunge cuts with a chainsaw but that's also dangerous. I guess you can just cut the log with 4 straight cuts and remove the center rectangle, than screw it all back together


----------



## GregB

NJBeeVet said:


> I wonder how he hollowed out those logs. There seems to be no easy way to do it other than plunge cuts with a chainsaw but that's also dangerous. I guess you can just cut the log with 4 straight cuts and remove the center rectangle, than screw it all back together


At least in my case, I took *already hollow* logs - then made them square inside using a chain saw.
Frankly, too much work with little to show for the effort.

Just as good results could be achieved with pseudo-logs made from conventional materials (while having many advantages).


----------



## NJBeeVet

GregB said:


> At least in my case, I took *already hollow* logs - then made them square inside using a chain saw.
> Frankly, too much work with little to show for the effort.
> 
> Just as good results could be achieved with pseudo-logs made from conventional materials (while having many advantages).
> 
> View attachment 70858


I was thinking the same thing. Seemed like a cool idea to make log hives but it's a lot of work with something that's likely not standardized. Better off making compact vertical hives with good insulation


----------



## GregB

NJBeeVet said:


> Better off making compact vertical hives with good insulation


Exactly.


----------



## Litsinger

Juhani feeding the log hive- interesting approach:


----------



## AR1

Thanks Russ. I only occasionally check his website.

Interesting that he is finding wild swarms. I remember him finding one a few years ago and expressing surprise. Not many wild bees in Finland. I wonder if any make it through winter.


----------

