# Questions for Wannabees -- am I really helping?



## memcnult (Apr 30, 2007)

I think a pretty important question is where are they planning on keeping them, and how their neighbors feel about it, but I'm in an urban setting, so that's pretty high on my radar. Also perhaps how long they expect the 'work parts' to take, and whether they, or anyone in their family, is allergic to bee stings.

I think it's great that you're helping people get into the hobby, but I'm not sure how much wannabees actually 'help the bees', but then again, maybe I'm just jaded because my first hive diead.


----------



## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

*we need 1 and 2 hivers*

Grant, It's ironic that at a time when beekeeping seems to be the hardest there is such a swell of interest in getting started, and I think it really can make a difference. I tell people to read, as you said, and I give them a catalog, a printout of some basic guidelines and also an invite to check out some hives. If they are really interested, in a week or so they will have lots of questions and want to talk about beekeeping or ask if they can tag along. Make sure they know there is an investment of time and money and it's agriculture, so there's no promises about the outcome.


----------



## jasontatro (Feb 6, 2008)

All very valid points. I have to say though, that this runs counter to what I've heard from the other new beeks I've met. For myself, I have read no less than 4 books cover to cover, attended meetings of the local club, not to mention scouring these boards for information. As I've mentioned before, I don't even like honey and could care less if I ever sold any of it. My number one reason for taking on beekeeping as a hobby is a genuine fear for their longevity. The fallout from the extinction of honeybees will be massive and anything I can do to keep it from happening the better.

Jason


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

grant writes:
Amazingly, not one of these interested wannabees have read anything.

tecumseh repllies:
like gomer pile I just want to put on a big cheesey grin and say.... surprise, surprise. is this really such a revelation in the age of instant gratification and instant communication. I wonder if the same population fragment also thinks the honeybees do all the work and all you (as a bee keeper) need do is come by every once in a while and pick up those perfectly filled bottles of honey?

it would seem to me for those folks who have problems reading (and learning in the context) that their real choice is to find some mentor to follow along behind for some time to learn the ropes.

In the final analysis bee keeping is about application but before you can apply knowledge you need to gain knowledge.


----------



## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

No one reads the owners manual to their car anymore and messing up something while driving can kill. People get news from video, whether it's on TV or on the computer. Tecumseh is right. People want things right away. The dedicated will distill from the mix no matter what the medium of knowledge transfer is.


----------



## beewhisper (Feb 17, 2007)

I understand what everyone is saying but we really do need more people beekeeping.The bees and the beekeepers are dying.Most of the beekeepers are over 60 years of age. In my club this is also true, and not to many of them are out trying to recruit new members. I am trying to recruit as many as I can.For one thing I dont want the club to die.I also belive beekeeping is an enjoyable hobbie. It is also very educational and helps to teach people about nature.In my openion. We all need to recruit as many people as we can.
Beewhisper


----------



## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

Perhaps suggest they take a class, if there are any offered in your area. Here, I spent $30 for a class and a book, and learned a lot of the basics. Enough to generally understand the level of $ and effort that would be involved. (Although the class taught me ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the addictive nature of beekeeping!  ) Similarly, buying a book, as you suggest, does the same thing in a less structured way. It's a small price to pay to open your eyes to what is involved . If they aren't willing to shell out that first few bucks, they aren't serious.


----------



## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

I'd point them to a class, local association, a good book or two, etc. Don't look to negatively on it, we have plenty of books and classes, but eager bodies are in short supply. While I wouldn't recommend getting the hive before any knowledge it can work. I started myself with 7 hives with literally only 2 hours of internet research (mostly to make sure I knew what the going rate was before the auction I purchased the hives at).

-Tim


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

beewhisper writes:
Most of the beekeepers are over 60 years of age.

tecumseh replies:
gettin' personal are we... tsk, tsk. 

as someone quickly approaching the described age I would like to look about and see some younger folks picking up the hive tool.

as raveneye suggest the ability to discern a student's motivation and resolve is not such a simple thing to determine... some will get it no matter what you do (either as a mentor or teacher) and some will never get it no matter how much time and effort you contribute to the process.


----------



## PerryBee (Dec 3, 2007)

All of these suggestions are great. I would perhaps change the numbers or value to get started in keeping. Using Grant's numbers I would add that you should at least start with two hives, not one. That brings you to $450, now add the cost of a suit, smoker, hive tools, medication ( if used ),etc. I haven't even begun to discuss extracting costs yet!!! I loan out books and a few videos to people interested and I even have a spare suit and have made invitations of hive examinations. Not too many have taken me up! I think they are interested till it comes time to actually spend and do. My two cents worth anyway.


----------



## Matt Guyrd (Nov 28, 2007)

I started reading books and forums last September. I will start with three colonies in a few weeks. I joined the local club and receive Bee Culture and ABJ. I am curently taking a class. My intent is to be in this hobby for the long haul. I'm entrenched in the learning process and I haven't even seen an active hive yet.

With that said, my instructor indicated that this year's class registration was three times that of previous years. He also went on to say that of the 50+ people in my class, he would be surprised if five of us would still be keeping bees three years from now. Maybe there is truth to that, maybe not.

But, with the so many people jumping on board, even for one or two years, it will put bees in the communities. Sure, the beekeepers that are not active (and proactive) will likely have higher dead-outs, but it may also mean more swarms "released" into the world.

And with a lot of interest up front, the number of folks that do take on responsible beekeeping should increase.

As a new-comer, I feel welcomed into the beekeeping circle when talking to other beekeepers...they genuinely want to share there love and knowledge of the bees. 

The recent increased interest in beekeeping can only be a good thing. And beekeepers should feel the responsibility to encourage and guide those that have questions or express interest.

Matt


----------



## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I have found a simple and easy way to assess their interest. I invite them over to go into a hive and look and talk. If they come, they go away with a good idea of what it entails. If they never show, they are not interested enough to make it, IMHO.


----------



## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

I find that the persons most interested and ones most likely to "take the plunge" are folks like myself. They had a parent or grandparent or other significant relative that kept bees. Even though I started with beekeeping in my late 40's, when I dove in, I did it with both feet. I think I may have improved the odds that at least one or two of my children or grandchildren will either remain involved in beekeeping or take it up again later in life. I have found that if you can get an interested party to "tag along" with you during your beekeeping activities, their interest either becomes very firm or wanes quickly.


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

It's all in the motivation. If you're interested you'll find a way to get the time and funds. I've always liked bugs, hunting, fishing, the outdoors, and even stealing very active wasp nests as a kid for fishing bait. Wearing nothing but a shirt, shorts and shoes it did take me a little while to figure out how to get the nest without getting stung. So getting stung isn't so bad.

Once I stopped traveling for a living I got more serious about getting into the addiction that is beekeeping. I read all I can get my eyes on to feed my habit. But again it all comes down to motivation. If it doesn't truely float someones boat they will fail. Making it accessable and freindly to a newcomer helps alot but they have to commit (time and funds). Show them where the water is but they have to walk to it and drink. I've had multiple people ask me about beekeeping and I give them very basic info. If they come back with more questions I give them more info. I'm 39 and have two friends that have gotten into beekeeping via my information. Those that don't commit (yet?), no problem, they still ask how my bees are doing and like to buy my honey.


----------



## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

I guess I would think back to see how you, yourself got started. Some folks like to dive into the pool without looking at the depth marker. Some not only check out the marker, they ask the lifeguard if it would be okay to dive into the pool, and plan their angle of dive...

In other words, if you have an extra bee suit, let some of them join you on your rounds. In that way, they will see up-close what they are considering, and they might then pursue it as a hobby or sideline.

I guess I'm the inquisitive sort - I have tried and will continue to try all kinds of new endeavors in my life - within limits - I don't want to skydive or climb mountains. 

Always learning.

MM


----------



## chefbeek (Sep 7, 2007)

*Bring it on!*

Speaking only for myself, I will relate my experience in hopes it will enlighten the beekeeping torch bearers. 

I caught fire last September at the New York State Fair. My girlfriend and I stopped by the beekeeping table where they had an observation hive. I took a look, took a whiff, and it was over. My girlfriend, knowing my nature, muttered "Uh oh...." The fellow attending the table must have seen something because he grabbed every leaflet on the table and gave it to me. He told me it's hard work, but nothing's more gratifying.

My next moves, in this order; Beekeeping for Dummies cover to cover, Backyard Beekeeping by Kim Flottum, this web site, phone book with calls to beeks, followed by my visit to meet one. I then went to his house and we cracked hives open and checked out his extraction room. I then began building my own equipment (including frames,) went to Dadant in southeren NY and got foundation, wire, eyelets, etc...pulled honey with my mentor. The rest is history. My order is in for nucs, I have a yard on my friends organic farm set aside, and all that remains is the work; something I was warned about but have never been afraid of. The rest remains to be seen.

To me, the difference was meeting the right people along the way. They encouraged me, they were forthcoming with information and they were patient; all the tools a good teacher needs. What I needed to bring to the table was passion, time, a little money and energy. As added bonuses I also bring a strong work ethic, a love of insects and the outdoors, and a love of all things agricultural, all of which segway from being a chef I suppose. It also helps I know my way around a tablesaw, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to afford the equipment (I have more time and tools than money...)

That's my story. I understand where some of you are coming from, for I saw the same thing happen with fly-fishing ever since A River Runs Through It came out. The good news is an expanded environmental conscienceness has shaken out and our water ways and fish have benefitted. The bad news is we have had to suffer fools that secumbed to an "image" along the way. No matter. They don't stay, but the benefits I've described remain (not to mention a lot of great barely used equipment at auction! ) 

So, I guess that's it. I think if you read the other posts you could probably begin to come up with a good "profile" of the future beekeeper. If I'm not on this board in 3 years, you'll have a good profile of the "wannabe." Time will tell. I will say this though; I've never looked forward to Spring as much as I am now. Thank you all for that.

Eamon (Chefbeek)


----------



## Troutsqueezer (May 17, 2005)

IMO, beekeeping at the hobby level is not rocket science. In fact, it's barely science at all, physcial science at least. Maybe it's closer to sociology. That is not to say that there isn't a lot to learn. There is. But how much you need or want to learn depends on the level of involvement you plan on. To get started with a hive or two doesn't take a change in life style with concentrated study and commitment. You can get by with a modicum of learning and dedication and fulfill that desire to help nature along, however insignificantly.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Most of the "want-to's" I've met seem to think "keeping bees" is just like keeping a dog or cat; just pets. You get them, put them in a home, and feed them. Just like pets. 

When treated as such, bees only live a year or two, maybe three. Beekeeking requires a great deal more than just "keeping pets".


----------



## Troutsqueezer (May 17, 2005)

>Beekeeping requires a great deal more than just "keeping pets". 

My two big dogs take _way way_ more of my time and money than my four hives. I just had an eyelid growth removed from one of them at $1k. They require walks daily, love and attention, balanced meals, vet care, etc. No comparison to bees. I am speaking at a hobby level here.


----------



## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

$1k. ?????????????? You mean,..........$1000.00$$$$$$$$$,......??,.....for a dog?

About 50 years ago, a dog that are family "loved" very much had some kind of seizsure and was writhing on the ground; we didn't know what was going on. My Dad had to put it out of misery,......................and all was well.

If my Dad had to pay $1000.00 at that time for the dog, he would have,......... "LOST THE FARM", I am sure. "Times",. have sure changed.

In later years my Dad took good care of all the pets and took them to the vet when necessary.


----------



## jasontatro (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm quickly learning that with most things in beekeeping, this topic has people on both ends of the spectrum. On one side, you have people talking about how much work it is and how much time it requires. Then, I talk to experienced beeks who tell me it's the complete opposite.

I guess I will just have to take the journey myself to see how it will be for me. In the meantime, I refuse to let anyone dissuade me from taking it on.

Jason


----------



## chefbeek (Sep 7, 2007)

*That's the spirit Jason!*

That's what I'm talking about Jason! I'm 100% with you. I knew right away I was going to do this no matter what. 

It's said in cooking circles that you don't choose to be a chef, chefing chooses you. To this point I feel the same about beekeeping.


----------



## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

My own experience started by watching a package of bees being installed. My part of the deal was providing the land for a couple of hives in return for a share of honey. After seeing the bees, I wanted to learn more. The beekeeper gave me a veil to use and Richard Bonney's 2 books to read. I read through both a couple of times and was hooked. I wanted to learn all I could, and wanted to find people to talk to about bees. The first few times I watched with my hands in my pockets, peering into the hives as the beekeeper worked. Then he said "Would you like to pull a frame" I was a little nervous, but the bees were crawling on my hands and weren't stinging me. I knew right then that I would have my own hives the following spring and I started right out with 5 hives, making as much of the equipment as I could and finding a way to buy the rest. He had no doubt that I was serious about it.


----------



## Troutsqueezer (May 17, 2005)

>$1k. ?????????????? You mean,..........$1000.00$$$$$$$$$,......??,.....for a dog?

Economically (and otherwise), I'm doing well. When I do well, all that I love and care for does well. Contrary to what you might hear from the Democrats and the news media, there are some of us who are prospering.


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Thanks for the answers, thus far. The phone calls inquiring about beekeeping leave me wondering if they are curious or committed. One summer I had a guy stop by my stand at the farmer's market every week and ask about a hundred questions. He kept telling me he was going to keep bees. I thought I was very encouraging, even offering my time to mentor him, though I didn't use that term.

An old man with two hives, extractor, veil and some other equipment approached me and said, "I'll give all my stuff, free, to any young person who wants to get started in bees." So the next time this guy stops by I tell him of this great offer. I even offered to help move the hives to his location. He said he'd get back in touch with me.

And that's the last time I saw him.

To me, it's like the chicken and the pig walking down the street. They stop in front of a cafe where a sign advertises a ham-and-egg breakfast. The chicken boasts how his family was involved in the production of that breakfast. The pig quietly comments how his family was committed.

I'm looking for the committed, though often my wife thinks I ought to be committed myself.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

someone wrote:
With that said, my instructor indicated that this year's class registration was three times that of previous years. He also went on to say that of the 50+ people in my class, he would be surprised if five of us would still be keeping bees three years from now. Maybe there is truth to that, maybe not.

tecumseh replies:
don't have a real hard number either but the relative number of 10% sticking too it seems a bit high to me. I would suspect a long term sticking rate of about 5%. the bee keeping 'bidness' would do better to try and keep a few more folks around.

nice story chefbeek... it is the smell (and I am told that smell is the one sense directly wired into the brain) that gets them every time. opening a brand new box of foundation is oh so wonderful.

then troutsqueezer decides to ruin my day by adding:
Economically (and otherwise), I'm doing well. When I do well, all that I love and care for does well. Contrary to what you might hear from the Democrats and the news media, there are some of us who are prospering.

tecumseh replies:
personally I am quite happy that you are doing well troutsqueezer but then you had to go political on us didn't ya bro? the real problem troutsqueezer is that an increasing number of people are not doing well... so the problem is not about the I, but about the we. I suspect some folks are just not genetically designed to ever 'get it'.


----------



## Irene S (Feb 7, 2008)

wow.. I'm a newbie who hasn't figured out all the details, but now I'm feeling a little concerned with the negative vibes.. 

I just like to grow stuff, be it a vegetable or sea monkeys or worms in the worm bin. And from what I've heard beekeeping is kind of a decent hobby in that the bees to all the work. 

The dropoff rate of folks from beekeeping doesn't surprise me... the same happens with worm composting, people do it until theres a problem and then they bail, because either they lose interest or just don't have the time or inclination. But I give them credit because heck, at least they try! 

maybe I'm taking this thread a little to personally. I'll slap myself and get over it 

and as for the 'helping'... I was under the impression that it's mostly commercial bees that are dying off from CCD, that smalltime beekeepers have not really been affected. Or that's what I've heard, I've been wrong before.





tecumseh said:


> personally I am quite happy that you are doing well troutsqueezer but then you had to go political on us didn't ya bro? the real problem troutsqueezer is that an increasing number of people are not doing well... so the problem is not about the I, but about the we. I suspect some folks are just not genetically designed to ever 'get it'.


it's not you *tecumseh* and it's not genetics..it is the economy. Sure a small percentage might be doing better, but 'better' is relative to some and there is a momentum in the economy that is lacking. 

things will get better come next January, I promise!


----------



## hikerboy (Apr 26, 2007)

This has nothing to do with the original question but...I'm a 34 year old with 1 hive in an urban setting and I love it. I became fascinated with bees after I saw a Nova special about them and finally pulled the trigger a few years later. 

Surprisingly enough, I've met 2 women (my age) since that are going to set up their own hives now! Pretty cool!


----------



## NEBeeman (Feb 11, 2008)

I must admit there seemed to be some negative vibes being sent out... I'm sure it's out of frustration that ones' passion isn't shared by all. This wii be my first season.
Rest assured, there are some of us who have immersed ourselves deeply in collecting info., reading everything we can get our hands on, asking questions, investing $$(yes! investing), taking classes, etc.
Personally, it's my nature to research thoroughly... into new ventures. Nucs coming in a few weeks!


----------



## Troutsqueezer (May 17, 2005)

>then troutsqueezer decides to ruin my day 

Truth is painful sometimes.

>so the problem is not about the I, but about the we.

How do you spell Communism? 

Oh well, I don't want to hijack what is a nice thread going here. This should be taken over to Tailgater.


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*My two cents*

I think that experienced beeks should not worry at all about how interested people really are or whether they ultimately become and remain beekeepers.

As I see it, there are two sides to learning beekeeping. The first is reading and learning what you are supposed to be trying to do. That may not appeal to some people, which may weed them out. However, keeping bees is like roller skating. You can read about it all you want, but that won't teach you how to do it. You can't learn to do it without actually doing it. You ultimately learn from doing and making mistakes. 

I actually got started when my wife went to the state fair and signed me up for beekeeping classes as a birthday present. (She thought she was getting a cheap, fast gift, and was she ever mistaken.) When I started the classes, I knew nothing at all. I literally had to stop the instructor to ask what a "super" was. The more I learned, the more interested I got. Then, when I helped some actual beekeepers, I just had to get a hive or two. Now I'm expanding to 5 hives with secret hopes to go to ten the next year (don't tell my wife about that.) 

However, I bet 80% of the people in my bee class, which was just over a year ago, either never really started or already stopped. I bet even more will quit by the end of this season. 

Most people who are interested are just that -- interested. That's good, but it does not mean that they will like beekeeping or keep doing it. It seems to me that, for whatever reason, people either really like it a lot or they don't. Nobody really knows until they try, and that's just the way it is and will always be.

I think experienced beekeepers need to focus on the fact that it is the small percentage of people who develop a lasting interest that will keep the hobby and industry going for the future. We should meet people at whatever level of interest they have and see where it goes from there. Worst case scenario, you might make a friend or meet a future customer. 

Just my thoughts.

ndvan


----------



## Irene S (Feb 7, 2008)

Oldbee said:


> $1k. ?????????????? You mean,..........$1000.00$$$$$$$$$,......??,.....for a dog?
> 
> About 50 years ago, a dog that are family "loved" very much had some kind of seizsure and was writhing on the ground; we didn't know what was going on. My Dad had to put it out of misery,......................and all was well.


not to go off topic.. but I've spent that much on my cat. He fell ill when I was on my honeymoon, and I spent MORE than that on my wedding, how could I NOT spend it on one I consider part of the family?

My dad (who grew up on a farm) was all YOU SPENT HOW MUCH??? so I said, Dad, okay if you get sick I won't drop a grand on you .. 

*I was kidding of course, but luckily Dad's got insurance*


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Irene S said:


> wow.. I'm a newbie who hasn't figured out all the details, but now I'm feeling a little concerned with the negative vibes..
> 
> and as for the 'helping'... I was under the impression that it's mostly commercial bees that are dying off from CCD, that smalltime beekeepers have not really been affected. Or that's what I've heard, I've been wrong before.


My apologies if I sent negative vibes. I guess what I'm leery of is setting up someone with my encouragement, someone who invests a couple of hundred bucks in each hive (and my advice is to start with at LEAST two hives), then have the bees die. Not necessarily to CCD, but there are a host of other problems you really have to stay on top of. It's a tricky time to be starting off from scratch with no experience.

My first year was a swarming festival which resulted in no harvestable honey and weakened hives, though I had led myself to believe I was ready to open my own store front. My second year I robbed too much honey and they died in the winter despite my feeding attempts at Christmas time. And this was all before mites, SHB, etc. But I was determined to make this thing work and learn all I could to make it a success. I also had a couple of older men whose patience with my outlandish ideas merits them for sainthood.

If I invest my time and energy into a project, I want success, which often means persevering through bad years that require greater investments of time and energy and money without the guarantee of an immediate payoff. 

But ndvan's comments have been most helpful. Maybe I'm expecting "interested" people to be fully ready to take that first step when all they need at this time is a map that shows the way.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## busbee59 (Mar 3, 2008)

*beetles*

beetles wern't around when I did bee's as a kid, the hive I have have got is falling apart ,bee have been on their own for about 4 years, it has beetles I belive to reproduce they go to the ground first, how do they get back in fly or crawl. '
if they crawl has anybody tried a shield like a termite shield on a house foundation maybe mice or other things that make their self at home


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

This is the first year that we are really selling bees. I put an ad on craigslist and gots like 20 emails a day for a week. A lot of people that wanted more information, etc. I made a simple email up that I cut and paste and send to people when they want more information. 

When they buy a hive, we send them an informational packet. This includes a letter of introduction into beekeeping, a bill of sale, a page on resourceful info which includes books, classes that are happening locally, and beekeeping supply companies. I also have a page on what to expect. I mention in those pages that it is VERY important to read at least one book prior to picking up the hive. 

I have found that a lot of people have a lot more questions. I tell them that a lot of info is covered in those packets. It is not like I do not want to talk about bees but when you have 20 or so emails a night to look through and answer, this is the best way that I have found. 

I still have people, like today, who emailed me and said that he doesnt not want to be around the hive but once, which is to take off his honey. I informed him that it is more work then that. 

I get a lot of people who are interested for one reason or another. That is why we have a packet. We beleive that with the packet, it goes above and beyond what others do when they sell hives. This is only my opinion. 

On a side note, if anyone is selling hives and would like to include this packet, or something simuliar, send me an email at [email protected] and I would be glad to share. As that is what beekeeping is all about.


----------



## Irene S (Feb 7, 2008)

Grant said:


> My first year was a swarming festival which resulted in no harvestable honey and weakened hives, though I had led myself to believe I was ready to open my own store front. My second year I robbed too much honey and they died in the winter despite my feeding attempts at Christmas time. Jackson, MO


I just want my bees to LIVE past the first year ... I haven't even thought about the harvesting of the honey, I just want to get the hives up and running. With low expectations, there's less of a chance of disappointment LOL

I figure if the bees are still alive in the summer, I'll worry about how to harvest and where to get equipment (or if I can borrow or rent)

I think the only way I'd just throw in the towel is if I get foulbrood and have to destroy the hives.  that would be about the only thing that would just do it for me.

hope I didn't just jinx myself..


----------



## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

*New Beekeepers in crazy numbers*

I consider myself to be a new beekeeper, considering that this is my third winter. 
I think the scariest thing for me regarding new beekeepers and I suspect that those around me think/thought the same about me is the risk of "poor neighborly relations". 
In general beekeepers are not much out in the open, not well understood, and in fact bees are generally feared by the public/neighbors. 
I personally worry that a new beekeeper in my city will lose a swarm in a crazy neighbor's yard and the whole thing will blow out into a nightmare. 
It is important that we separate our need for beekeeping ordinances (or lack thereof) from our need to support new beekeepers. The beek with one or two hives in the backyard (or 8 or 15 depending on the yard size) may well be one of our best resources for keeping healthy honeybees. 
Meanwhile, we need to create and sustain environments where bees are allowed, including cities.
just MHO


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

old bee writes: 
$1k. ?????????????? You mean,..........$1000.00$$$$$$$$$,......??,.....for a dog?

tecumseh replies:
I know it's a shock oldbee but yep some folks (including myself) will spend a great deal of money on a 'problem' that at one time (well when I was quite young) we resolved with a shotgun.

just to suggest to you how over the top this can be, one of my relatives spent $5000 for an MRI of a cat (which didn't even belong to him).. the fellow in question helped invent and build the first ones so he kind of get a kick out of seeing the information that particular bit of science produces.

troutsqueezer writes:
How do you spell Communism? 

tecumseh replies:
well you seemed to know how to spell the word quite well. you really need to get with the program of wingnut 'demonization and name calling' troutsqueezer. since the fall of the soviet union when someone from the right wants to hang some negative tag on someone they now call them socialist and not communist. I mean... how can you properly instill fear in someone by using a tag that doesn't really exist any longer.

then troutsqueezer adds:
Truth is painful sometimes.

tecumseh replies:
and denial ain't a river in africa.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

to grant:
I just read an article (by yourself) in one of the bee journals in regards to pulling 'plastic' type foundation. quite interesting and not too long ago I read an article in a much olded bee journal about the effects of queen excluders on how and where the hive stored surplus (which could and did effect swarming signicantly).

I really have no interest in plastic (I am strictly a wood, wire, and foundation man myself) but the articles (both of them) did seem to suggest the upper entrances and ventilation holes (I think at one point you talked about drilling holes under the hand holds) were quite important when you used an excluder.

nicely written article and well done..


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Thanks for the compliment, and yes, the holes were either 3/4" or 7/8" depending on which drill bit I thought was close at hand, and they were UNDER the hand hold, not in it.

This "discovery" on my part was quite by accident, but rather coincidentally made a positive difference.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

under the hand hold??? yep that sound about right.

although I guess you could drill the hole above the hand hold, but that would result in other problems??? 

then grant adds:
This "discovery" on my part was quite by accident, but rather coincidentally made a positive difference.

tecumseh replies:
in about the same era of bee magazines (maybe early 1980's) a fellow from kentucky wrote a nice 'letter to the editor' and talked about how he had done research on the ventilation in tobacco barns (early 1950's I think) and how ventilation at the center of the barn (not at the bottom and not at the top) was more important than most people thought.


----------



## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

tecumseh states:
...on the ventilation in tobacco barns (early 1950's I think) and how ventilation at the center of the barn (not at the bottom and not at the top) was more important than most people thought.

Hobie waxes nostalgic:
I spent my teen years working tobacco in Connecticut. The entire barn side opened up. There were either verical side boards where every other one pushed out on the bottom, or horizontal side boards where several opened like louvers. There was typically a ridge vent. Tobacco barns got quite toasty as the leaves cured. In CT, they had to put heaters in them. One hopes not to "cure" their bees.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

and I bet you can still remember the smell Hobie. I certainly can although I never worked the tobacco crop, but I did have at least one great uncle that raised a small plot of tobacco and cured the stuff in one of those tall barns.

In the 'letter to the editor' mentioned the fellow said that prior to their experiment all the barns had ventilation at the top and bottom of the barn, since that was the prevailing attitute about how ventilation was suppose to work. during their little experiment (the barn was set up with lots of thermo couple to read temperature) when they poured smoke into the bottom of the barn they noted that a great deal of the smoke exited from the center louvres. 

you might not wish to 'cure' your bees hobie, but the bees do cure honey.


----------



## Sprocket58 (May 5, 2007)

A lot of vlid points here folks!! I started reading on bees about ten yrs ago...put down the book because I was living in the city at the time and didn't see keeping bees as a possibility. Two years ago I started reading again (I've always been fascinated). Last April an opportunity presented itself and I simply could not pass it up.... a 5 hive operation with bees, 40 plus meds with foundation, books, suits and extracting equipment for $600. From everything I read it looked like a very good deal. 

So the newbie got into it by reading a little, asking a lot and ultimately it was my willingness to learn from the bees that helped me through a wonderfully amazing first year. The point I want all to remember is that most people are hands on learners and reading, while a necessity, is not always the best way for some to learn. Good mentoring with lots of hands-on experiences is always the better option, and good mentoring is always needed.

Kim


----------



## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

tecumseh said:


> and I bet you can still remember the smell Hobie.


Oh, yes! Can't forget the smell, nor can I describe it. 

Good point about curing the honey. But I would think you'd still need ventilation through all levels, not short-circuiting out the sides. So you still need an opening, be it inlet or outlet, at the top.


----------



## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

*vents*

" not short-circuiting out the sides.." as a retired tobbacco farmer i can tell you the openings on the barn sides are not vents but INTAKES for the air to move up as it is warmed and out the roof. i believe this is what happens with a screened(open) bottom and top entrance to a hive, letting moisture from nectar or syrup go out the top.


----------



## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

Sounds like the Kentucky man's barn did not draw properly.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

hobie writes:
Good point about curing the honey. But I would think you'd still need ventilation through all levels, not short-circuiting out the sides. So you still need an opening, be it inlet or outlet, at the top.

tecumseh replies:
well in the native state most (not all for certain) feral bees have one entrance located below the brood nest. that one entrance seemed to have worked fairly well for a couple of million years as far as I can tell.... of course most of us are not keeping feral bees in a log.

mizz tecumseh tell me that the sense of smell is the only sense that is direclty wired into the brain and therefore in regards to memory smell is extremely vivid. from time to time (and most times it seems for no reason) I get these imaginary whiff of orange blossum honey hanging in the air. 

sproket writes:
The point I want all to remember is that most people are hands on learners and reading, while a necessity, is not always the best way for some to learn. 

tecumseh replies:
absolutely... and a good mentor/teacher that recognizes that most of what they are teaching is about DOING know when enough preliminary/essential instructions has taken place and when the time has finally arrived for the student to try their hand in the process.

sounds like (I don't really have full knowledge about the health of the bees or the condition of the equipment) that you made a most excellent purchase.


----------



## Sprocket58 (May 5, 2007)

Yes Tecumseh, from everything I researched on prices it was an amazing deal. The bees were very healthy as far as I know and I have so far managed to over-winter 3 out of five hives.

To all of the posters in this forum: ; ) And please don't take offense to anything I say...for it is not menat to be so.

I am soooooo glad that I got into it and I believe that my success so far has been related to two the positive mentorship received from this forum, and my willingness to become a part of my colony. Yup that;s right, A Part Of My Colony. I listen, I watch, I learn, I retool my thinking and I learn by watching the bees.

But I hear the frustration of all speaking out here. As a teacher in public, private and Catholic schools, the lack of passion is what strikes me as being the biggest problem and it is that which I see as being a source of frustration in here.

You cannot motivate someone to want to learn about anything.
You cannot motivate passion in another.
You can only provide a forum ( or environment) for one to become passionate or motivated. The reason.....
Motivation and passion are intrinsic

I too, get frustrated with a lack of or what appears to be a lack a willingness to learn about anything other than Ipods or other electronic forms of attention getters. A teacher can only do so much..which is as I said before...providing an environment which is conducive to learning which I and a great deal of folks in here try to do.

When dealing with learning on a classroom level, I believe the learning equation is 1/3 teacher, 1/3 student and 1/3 parent. ( Of course you could factor in adminsitrative B.S. and change the fractions accordingly.)

As teachers, when we deal with adults, the learning equation changes somewhat....you as the mentor are 1/2 and the newbie (or the person you are trying to reach) is 1/2. Basically that means that once you, the mentor has given your time, motivation and passion....it is the responsibility of the other to take it or leave it. If they choose to not learn something or to not take your advice it is not an afront to you..( in spite of the fact that it really ticks us off sometimes)

If we all start taking and demanding responsiblity for and from others....thae world will be a better, less frustrating place.


----------



## Roni (Mar 11, 2008)

I'm in my early forties just starting out. I checked out about 10 books from the library on beekeeping and bought four recently published books. I'm reading everything I can get find on the net. The Organicbeekeepers e-group has been very patient with all my newbie questions. I plan on attending the Bee Institute, a five year school put on by UGA, with my son who is 16. He is going to be my partner in the bee "business". We are also joining our local beekeepers group and attending monthly meetings. We plan on visiting with several of the experienced members to see how they do things and learn from them. 
I sold a goat kid to someone recently and she nearly killed it. So I know what you mean about being afraid of putting honeybees in in-experienced hands. Just try your best to point them in the right direction. 
I would say costs are higher on the hives when you add in additional honey supers with frames and foundation when buying new equipment. I've found about the minimum you'll pay for packages is $60, and depending on the breed of bee and supplier you can easily pay double that.


----------

