# Annual Comb Replacement



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I truely believe that old wax is hampering our hives health. My operational policy is taking out 10% if brood comb annually and dropping in a frame of foundation. In theory, 10 years to a reconditioned brood nest. 

After 5 years pulling out brood comb for rendering I'm still finding wired comb. I brought plastic in 15 years ago making this stuff older, 20, 25, 30 years old!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

The underlined is copied from a post I made earlier today and definitely pertinent to this tab. 


 Default Re: Certain cause of death

Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post

People today blame wax moth when wax moth are actually an indicator of a problem, not the problem itself.
I also have heard this "blame the wax moth" comment more often than you would believe. It's just a statement based in ignorance of bees and their "predators."

Not wanting to step into the evolution vs creation debate here but I am a firm believer that whatever path you believe on those subjects the *wax moths were either created or "developed" as one of the best methods to clean up combs that are either diseased or are old enough to harbor pathogens that would be better turned into a pile of WM castings anyways......all for the safety of the neighborhood. *

If we are going to keep the wax moths at bay as long as we do the I think a 7 year schedule is a great idea. Either we get rid of the junk or we let nature do it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Natures way is every few or more years, right?


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

We try to put 2 new frames in our singles every year. Doesn't always happen, but we try.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Ian said:


> Natures way is every few or more years, right?


My guess is 5-7 years.

In the old days. when the only bane was an occasional skunk and a little foul-brood I think a swarm would hit a tree cavity and last around 4-7 years. Toss in a couple of mating failures after a swarm or two and the wax moths will have a jump on a tree version of a dead out. Doubt they would last over 10 years before a bunch of WM will have a cheap lunch at the pupa casing restaurant.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

When a huge percentage of beginner beekeepers are losing their hives in the first or second winter, we can't blame old comb on the massive losses we have seen since 2006. Three of three of the foundationless Warres I stared this spring have died before New Year on brand new natural combs, all treatment free. I am melting down any combs I find in deadouts 2005 and older dating back to 1998, most of it treatment free. I have numerous hives that are alive with some combs dating back to 1998, and the older ones are not treament free.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Ky state apiarist said at a large outfit down south he managed years back it was not uncommon to find combs 20+ years old. He said the only time they may intentional trash comb was for SHB, moth infestations after dead-out or too many drone cells. 

I don't remember the particulars...don't quote me....


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Does the cell get smaller over time from all the brood on older combs??


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

Strip the frames clean with a chain flail uncapper every once in awhile... The chain flails if adjusted properly will tear the comb off down to the old wax and wire foundation. Let the bees build fresh comb on it/draw the frames out again. It keeps things cycled out on a more regular basis...Then you can melt your old black comb down & press out the wax for exterior wood working projects, dipping fence posts, boot polish, etc etc etc. Boil the old wood frames in lye water or wood ash..., and put new wax in them. Plastic foundation is nothing but pure garbage in the colder climates. The bees can't transfer heat frame to frame very well with a plastic layer in between them. Don't cut out the burr comb between the frames either...It creates sectioned off heat pockets that help the bees keep warm all winter.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

for the entire post from Dr Jerry Bromenshenk you can find it here.
http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1401&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=165563

as to replacing comb poster "the honey householder" if I remember correctly is still using his fathers comb successfully, but he doesn't use chemicals, I can't find the actual posts on beesource.

Since the foundation you purchase is still loaded with all the chemicals, are you ending up with less chemicals or more when you replace the frames? If you are not using foundation, I would think you would have a better shot at keeping your comb longer.

I only replace frames that are extremely old, or have too much drone comb in it. but then again since I moved 90% of all my comb has been drawn out with me using either apiguard and formic, which from what I have read is absorbed by honey and not wax, but they still do find it in the hive when they do there testing.

If I could find a source of wax made only with wax capping and not old brood chamber wax, I would replace more often, I think.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Ian said:


> After 5 years pulling out brood comb for rendering I'm still finding wired comb. I brought plastic in 15 years ago making this stuff older, 20, 25, 30 years old!


Occasionally I find aluminum foundation. Any guesses on how old those combs are?


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Odfrank said " we can't blame old comb on the massive losses we have seen since 2006."
Ok, I'll bite,what are saying


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> Occasionally I find aluminum foundation. Any guesses on how old those combs are?


1930's ??


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Every 7 years? There are people that actually throw away sound brood combs because they have reached the ripe old age of 7? I throw a lot of frames each year but they have to give me a better excuse than age. Hey, it's hard finding them when they aren't full of brood or honey or even pollen. I would estimate 20% of my brood combs are more than 50 years old. 
My take on what Jerry may be telling us is saying is what's the point, it's largely out of our control. Your hives are inhabited by a bunch of flying environmental dust mops.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

RAK said:


> Does the cell get smaller over time from all the brood on older combs??


Not that I have noticed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> My take on what Jerry may be telling us is saying is what's the point, it's largely out of our control. Your hives are inhabited by a bunch of flying environmental dust mops.


I asked him and haven't heard back yet. I don't know that he was saying anything to anyone other than when he and his study worked at wax analysis his findings were that it took little time for new comb to become like old comb pretty fast and faster than was anticipated.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> "the honey householder" if I remember correctly is still using his fathers comb successfully,

A previous thread titled Old Comb that included comments from _T__he Honey Householder_ about 60 year old brood comb. And a different thread with similar comments.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

another fact to consider is todays ability to measure has been improved greatly. in just the last few years our ability to measure parts per billion has improved with new technology. we may be seeing things that we could not measure before. just another factor to consider.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Michael Palmer said:


> Occasionally I find aluminum foundation. Any guesses on how old those combs are?


Currently I am at the point where I buy in new equipment every year to bulk up my box inventory but 5-10 years ago I would buy up equipment from auctions just trying to stay ahead of my hives. I bought in a lot of older equipment, which is fine, but it's the equipment I'm currently culling out . 

Last year I found a very unique frame. It was a "snap together " plastic frame which allowed the beekeeper to simply snap in wax foundation. It's rendered now , but I'm wishing I kept it for display to use as a conversation piece


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

RAK said:


> Does the cell get smaller over time from all the brood on older combs??


According to ABC & XYZ of Bee Culture it does. It even has a picture of a cross section of some cut up old brood comb, showing the cocoons building up.

The book suggests taking brood comb and holding it up to the sun. If you can see through it, it's fine. If you can't, it's time to replace. That's excessive to me.

I started switching out brood combs about three years ago, and I've noticed an improvement in the heath of my bees. I have less colonies that just appear to be dinks, for no other apparent reason. I'm not saying the wax is the cause of the improved heath, it could be from a wide variety of reasons: better beekeeping practices, better varroa management, better genetics, who knows. 

I replace comb every 5-7 years, or throw out a few frames if they are those dark black kind. But I do it not only because of the potential of chemical buildups in the comb, but because I'm a firm believer that having colonies draw out wax every year is good for their heath. Just my take on it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I agree, putting in a couple combs of foundation is a good thing, if for no other reason than maintenance. Yes, we do rotate lots of combs in each year but if you are replacing every 7 years you are either throwing a lot of brood and/or honey, selling lots of nucs (and passing on the "problem") or you are having lots of other issues and are ending up with a boat load of empty combs each year. My policy is when we see a bad comb we give it an ugly scratch with our hive tool and move it towards the outide hoping eventually to be able to rotate it out, but sometimes they linger in strong hives for years.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'm in the process of a major comb change out this year. Most of the combs I am getting rid of are between 10 and 20 years old.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I agree Jim, practicality always trumps the intended good idea


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm sure the biggest opposition to a "7 year plan" ( or something similar) is centered around the "energy" cost to the hive to draw the new comb. Even though the frames themselves are a pile of money its the dastardly hive energy sucking phenom that I dread the most in doing this. Its very expensive to a hive to have to draw new comb. IMO worse than shelling out dough for the new frames. 

Not to jump on the eco bandwagon but I would like to know what you all think the rate of AFB would be without the use of Antibiotics if everyone instituted a 7 year plan on all brood comb. This question is asked from a bee health perspective setting aside all thoughts of the financial perspective. I know we need to live within the finances our profession allows but putting the money issue aside what do you conclude would be the affects on hive health alone?


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I have a bunch of inherited comb that is dura gill. With bad spots in it that I am working out. Plus plans of working out some of the old brood comb. I don't think any thing new in frames has been add in a very long time for supers or brood.


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## Sharpbees (Jun 26, 2012)

I switch out 2 frames each year. By doing it this way, no comb is more than 5 years old. I use thumbtacks that are colored the same as queen marking system color so that I know what year they were replaced.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

irwin harlton said:


> Odfrank said " we can't blame old comb on the massive losses we have seen since 2006."
> Ok, I'll bite,what are saying


>Some people are concerned that chemicals built up in brood comb beeswax is causing problems effecting the bees ability to raise brood.<
That is what was said. I pointed out that many hives on brand new combs are dying also. 

I am not terribly afraid of chemicals in new foundation. Pesticides deteriorate overtime and few would have any potency after being heated several times to the temperature of melted wax. And many of these one season hives that are dying are started on plastic foundation and those are sometimes not even wax coated.


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

there is the theory that if you sell brood/nucs every year and replace with new foundation then after a couple of years you are selling comb so nice it hurts to see it go.

the constant cycle allows you to always have good comb with out throwing anything away. as well as providing your customers with a good product.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You could possibly blame recent bee health problems on newer chemicals, but agg and other chemicals have been in the invironment for a long time. Remember seeing plumes of black factory smoke when you were a kid? And especially heavy metal pollution has been curtailed since then. Bees are having to deal with things that they did not used to, but on average their environment is probably much less contaminated than anytime since WW2.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Since CCD, we run our operation as two separate warehouses and groups of beeyards, old and new equipment(we use no miticides). In the old equipment, the "new" frames are marked "P92"(plastic , 1992). Around half the frames are very dark, have a "tit" on the end of the top bar, and look like from the 60's(?). The bees have often chewed them down to the mid rib and redrawn the comb. The new equipment is all post 2007.

After decontamination of the old equipment, we have see NO difference in performance between the two groups of equipment that can not be easily explained by geographical or meteorological factors.

We therefore conclude that the age of the comb is not a factor, especially if miticides can be withheld from the hive. 

On the flip side, a well known Wis. beekeeper using miticides told me he does a four year brood comb rotation.

Crazy Roland


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> but sometimes they linger in strong hives for years.


Is there a reason you wouldn't move the marked frames up into the honey boxes, then do the frame culling after the extractor as they go back into boxes ?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

grozzie2 said:


> Is there a reason you wouldn't move the marked frames up into the honey boxes, then do the frame culling after the extractor as they go back into boxes ?


I don't extract brood comb.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> I don't extract brood comb.


Reason for everything, sometimes just need to ask, to 'get it'. Thanks.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

odfrank said:


> I pointed out that many hives on brand new combs are dying also.


I don't think anyone here was saying old was was the only reason a colony will die. 

It's much more common that a hive will starve or go through a queen issue. And if the comment is brought up about first or second year beekeepers losing hives, don't even get me started at the laundry list of things a beginner can do wrong (or that I have). None of that has anything to do with the age of the wax.



odfrank said:


> I am not terribly afraid of chemicals in new foundation. Pesticides deteriorate overtime and few would have any potency after being heated several times to the temperature of melted wax.


Have you tested any wax foundation you've encountered to verify this? I haven't, just read in magazines about how durable the new level of pesticides are, how others have tested foundation to find it somewhat high in pesticide levels, and how many of them have half lives of 50+ years. 

Wax isn't usually heated that high. Boiling water doesn't usually affect many of these pesticide and chemical's potency, so why would the heat of melted wax affect it?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Roland said:


> After decontamination of the old equipment, we have see NO difference in performance between the two groups of equipment that can not be easily explained by geographical or meteorological factors.


Interesting.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

David LaFerney said:


> on average their environment is probably much less contaminated than anytime since WW2.


From a volume perspective, I don't know if I would agree, but I could see your point. From a potency perspective, I think things have changed a lot since WW2. Many of the pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, ect. are MUCH more potent than they were 50 years ago.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I was at a seminar last week where the presenter said that studies showed that replacing all of the comb at once often resulted in bees having higher levels of disease. Apparently the used comb harbors beneficial fauna needed to fight disease. 

I wonder how long it takes new comb to have disease spore levels comparable to the old comb if the combs are side by side in the brood nest.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

thats interesting Allen, because at a convention a couple of years ago I was sure I heard one of the presenters speaking on irradiation of bee equipment say that the disease level and bee loses were higher in the irradiated equipment than the check colonies. (not referring to AFB)
So ya, beneficial fauna holds within the nest. One thing beekeepers like Michael Bush and others continually pound the on the desk about when speaking on in hive treatments and such.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Good memory but short.

The study involved irradiated comb not new.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Honey-4-All said:


> Not to jump on the eco bandwagon but I would like to know what you all think the rate of AFB would be without the use of Antibiotics if everyone instituted a 7 year plan on all brood comb.


It might be lower. But who knows what the rate is now?


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Pesticides were more "toxic" in years back. But the agents they have now effect the nervous system and the immune system. Then again we also have beekeeper chemicals.

There is much need of honest study in this department and while it is probably not a cause of bee death it can be the cold that leads to the flu that leads to death.

I think bees are designed to have a renewal of comb. How often i dont know. I beleive it depends on the beekeepers enviroment around him and what he uses to treat mites.

Like I said much more accurate data is needed.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

I tried to find research on the subject of comb renewal in wild bee colonies and the results were nill. 
In my mind, comb will naturally deteriorate with weathering and pest damage. Bees will replace as the comb deteriorates. 
As to how often comb should be replaced, it depends on the beekeeper and where the bees are being kept. I'd say every three years, which is around when comb becomes mostly black. Then again, I've seen some robust hives with 20 year+ old comb. It boils down to best management practices in the beekeeper's view, and that varies for everyone. I think queens prefer to lay in new comb as well.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I cut a bee tree back in about 1976 that had the oldest comb I've ever seen. There is no way I could even begin to guess actual age. The comb was so thick and so hard that I had to use a hatchet to chop it out of the tree. There was evidence that some of the old comb had been chewed out and replaced with newer comb near the bottom edge of the brood nest. I've seen 50 year old combs in colonies and know what a really old comb can look like. The combs in this tree were heavier, thicker, and harder by far than the 50 year old frames.

While that bee tree may have been used for a lot of years, I try to renew my combs about once in 10 years. This year is planned for one complete new brood chamber of frames for each and every colony I have.


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## MikeTheBeekeeper (May 18, 2011)

I don't have any type of policy regarding comb replacement for my hives but I have, on some occasions, thrown out some frames that looked really unappealing. Probably because I'm on a budget and am short on drawn out frames, but I don't think it's necessary (for me) to replace any comb right now.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I have brood frames in my operation over 60 years old. The only time I change them out is when they get mouse hole (drone paths), or of course when frames brake and I can't fit it. Other then that it's good to go for another year. Always adding in frames to do increase. Noone wants to buy nucs with 60+ year old comb.:scratch:


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

Are we allowed to link randy Oliver's work? http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-learning-curve-part-4-the-synthetic-miticides/.... I like the idea of
Comb rotation, especially if Coumaphos , fluvalnate. were ever used. I believe that build up of miticides are affecting our drone development and cause sterility. This results in the poor queens people are getting from packages and out of the large breeders. That being said I also see the financial cons to wanting to swap comb out frequently. For the smaller guys that want to do a three year rotation, go for it if it makes you feel like your helping the bees by some
Super beekeeper management technique. Commercially I feel a longer use
Of the comb is needed to maximize your financial inputs. That being said I'm slowly putting the idea into the owners head of a comb rotation and asking to get rid of
Any comb that weighs over 5lbs empty. Hah old Nasty drone comb prolly 40+ years old. Yuk.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I have a pest management plan to cull up to 25% of brood comb every year , even if it is still good , either I will sell it off in nucs or drawn comb to someone who want s it , but I think if you can sell it through nucs it would be a little easier on the pocket book  I'm not talking about old crappy dark comb , but decent stuff , I just want to refresh the hives every 4-5 years and that is what I plan to do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Here's what Barry Posted on a Drone Cell Thread. Written by Dee Lusby.

*2. Beekeepers should be actively culling their drone combs in their hives.*
It has been previously demonstrated that Varroa mites prefer drone brood to worker brood for reproduction in the feral population of honey bees. Generally, about 40% pf drone cells are infested, while for workers, the average is close to 10%. (For Tracheal mites the feral average is also about 10% for workers for infestation levels). It has been demonstrated that the larvae food is the stimulant in the bigger cells for attracting Varroa infestation. For many years it was taught to cull drone combs as much as possible, but since the advent of Varroa, this practice has been reversed to the detriment of our hives. Beekeepers should go back to the old way of thinking, as there will always be plenty of drones reared in corners of the frames or in cells that become enlarged by accident. It should always be remembered that the drones do no work physically in the hive, but they do act as the best attractant to pull disease and parasites to themselves so workers can survive throughout the active season. Then, when the honey is in and new queens mated, their jobs done, they are cast out to cleanse the hive of its disease and parasite problems. On a natural system, the few phoretic mites that remain are quickly filtered out through the brood nest by the workers chewing out and/or removing mites from infected larvae cells. This happens during each transition period between summer and winter bees, short or long-lived bees, happening twice each year here in the Arizona desert Southwest. By us culling drone brood frames which are excessive (more than 10%) we therefore limit our infestation and reduce it down using the 40% vs 10% infestation level difference to our own hive management advantage.
Further, by changing out oversized artificial combs in our brood nests (some on the market are as much as 40% oversized) we reduce the attraction for Varroa to enter pseudo-drone cells (worker cells artificially enlarged with more larvae food for mites) and reproduce at higher than natural 10% infestation levels also.


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