# what would you do?



## Jerry T Indiana (Apr 7, 2014)

like with any business you should give what the customer wants. I understand a lot of people are going to all mediums but I would suggest that you do both. why turn away business. Plus once you get a reputation for only doing mediums and later on you decide to do deeps it'll be hard to break the reputation that you only do mediums.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

just stick with med. If you have a good product and price they will sell. having both is shooting yourself in the foot. everybody sells deeps but med is the new market with little competition. any good beekeeper should have just one size equip. everything will interchange.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

If you want to stick with all medium equipment, then just sell medium frame nucs. Medium frames can work in a deep box. I can understand many reasons why a person may want to stick with just all mediums, so run your yard the way it's easiest on you.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I guess I am not and will never be a good beekeeper then. The smaller mediums cost as much to set up as the deeps and provide less cubic of room. You will probably be able to sell medium nucs but it will be more expensive than producing deep nucs as you will necessarily send more frames out the door. I personally am not all that enamored with medium brood nests and I have about a third of my colonies set up that way. It just takes too long to check a third more frames for the queen or shake out a third more frames ect ect. I don't knock those who run them but I am only 64 and don't need to go to the little boxes yet.


beeware10 said:


> just stick with med. If you have a good product and price they will sell. having both is shooting yourself in the foot. everybody sells deeps but med is the new market with little competition. any good beekeeper should have just one size equip. everything will interchange.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

I have some hives that are all medium and I have some that are single deep with mediums above. I can make deep nucs and medium nucs and don't see any problem keeping them seperate or lifting the boxes and I am past 62.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

beeware10 said:


> ...... any good beekeeper should have just one size equip. everything will interchange.


Really???


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"So what would you do?"
I would use and sell all mediums. Your potential market includes new beekeepers and existing beekeepers who are using medium supers and would like or be willing to begin using medium boxes for brood or be willing to rotate the mediums up in the hive later.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

if i needed to buy a nuc...I would buy medium nuc and put it in a medium or a deep if I had no mediums. Although i'de prefer a deep frame. 

I have a feeling deeps will be sticking around for a while. Running all mediums is great and all, but deeps are better imo. In my opinion a medium segments the brood nest too much.

The problem with mediums is a small beekeeper (handful of hives) doesn't really benefit with running all mediums. How many frame manipulations will that person do, a few a year. Do they really need the standardization....no not really.

Then if you look at a large scale beekeeper. Yes the standardization helps them, but the cost to run all mediums doesn't make business sense more time to inspect, more equipment, more cost.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

And what transport boxs will you use? 6 frame mediums will eliminate the commercialy produced ones.
Sure, medium frames will work in a deep box. If you are lucky, they will look like this:










But they usually look like this. Heres a nuc made up for a medium frame customer. She didn't show and this was only 3 days later.










I will make up a few medium nucs for customers as a courtesy, but it is a bit of a hassle over the standard deeps. They have to bring their own transport box and arrive about an hour before dusk to transfer the frames if they want to get all the foragers.

All my other nucs I make up with deep frames in standard equipment. I put them in the transport box a day or two ahead and they can be ready for an early morning pick up as well as late evening.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"And what transport boxs will you use?" Dadant sells medium cardboard nucs: http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1441. But we build nucs out of discarded plywood. Cheers,


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

If you intend to sell nucs as a.business, there are some facts of life tomdeak with.

One is of them is that by far, most beekeepers use deep boxes for their brood nests, so the market for deep nucs is huge...

Another is that we folks who use deeps aren't going to choose to buy a medium nuc unless there is no alternative.
Except for 2-3 guys, maybe.
But they probably don't live in your market area.

Another is that while using mediums for brood is becoming more popular, it's still a niche market, and only a fraction of the number of folks who buy nucs.

So if you want make money, you are going to sell deep nucs.

I can tell you from experience that standardizing as much of your equipment to one size saves a TON of hassle...and is actually one of the major rational reasons for using mediums in brood nest in the first place.

So if it were me, I'd go all deeps, only using mediums as honey supers.

I would hold off on making mediums until I was a good, experienced nuc producer with a large number of folks wanting to put deposits for medium nucs in my hand...as then I'd least be confident the sales would pay for the expense of buying the extra medium equipment to.produce the nucs.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

From the customer's perspective, I would rather buy from a nuc supplier who sells both mediums and deeps (all other things being equal). Selling both looks more professional, and selling both looks like the seller really wants to make his customers happy. That is who I would want to do business with. If someone had been selling medium nucs in my area when I was starting my apiary, assuming reasonable quality, I would have made all my purchases there.

I have no idea how much extra work or the business practicalities medium nucs would be for the seller.

I run all mediums in my dozen hive hobby apiary. It is a PITA switching the nucs over from deeps to mediums without disrupting the bees too much during their first season. After experimenting with a few different methods, I now wait till the following Spring and then put the deep (sans queen) on top above a queen excluder before the Spring buildup starts. Meaning, I have to work with the deep for a full season before I can get rid of it. And, then, I still have a bunch of deep frames I can't use.






.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

rookie2531 said:


> everyone in my area uses deeps for their brood. If I just sell medium nucs, do you think that would prevent sales?


Yes.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

A bunch of our newbees want to start out with all mediums but are forced to use at least 1 deep when they can't find nucs in mediums. The one guy I know that makes medium nucs sells out, no problem.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I make local medium nucs for sale and sell all I make up.
It seems people have a hard time finding mediums elsewhere and are willing to wait for my local medium ones.
Most newbeekeeps here have medium equipment and those who started with deep nucs in medium equipment
are overwhelmed with the necessary manipulations of converting with such limited experience. 
As we know, there have been alot of folks just starting out over the last 5 or 6 years with no signs of letting up.

I run mostly deep brood boxes and makedeep nucs for my own use only.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Thanks to all that replied. 

Lauri, As far as transport boxes. I have made nuc boxes out of plywood for 6 bucks a piece and can get that price way down because Lowes is probably the most expensive ply you can get around here. I don't know if I should have a deposit on them or not. I guess if they return them, that would put them back to me for more purchases (frames/foundation/queens etc.)and questions and stories, which is nice. I can talk bees all day.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

The nuc supplier I found in my area was selling mainly deeps as far as I know but when I requested mediums he made them up , I was going through a third party . When I went to pick them up I took my medium 10 frame box's with screened entrance and a screen vented migratory top that I made up ahead of time and the bottom board all ready to go . He inspected every nuc he sold locating the queen making sure she was viable and transferred the 5 frames from his nuc box's to either cardboard nuc's or woodenware if the customer had brought, which he suggested . This worked great , my box's had good ventilation for the ride home and only required me to set the box in my apiary and remove the screen in the entrance and replace the migratory top with a telescoping top , very little if any more stress of switching frames again .


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

rookie2531 said:


> So what would you do? .... just mediums and tell potential customers, sorry.


Yes, all mediums. I would keep it simple for your own peace of mind. 

It sounds like you are starting with just a few hives and I'm assuming you are not planning on selling hundreds of nucs, just enough to add another dimension to your beekeeping strategy. Your "medium" nuc market is out there, you just have to find it and develop it. 

It would be very easy for someone running deeps and mediums to start with a medium nuc if they had to. Just put the nuc in a medium super, and add a deep box above when they expand. Later, the medium would go up to the supering position with one easy reversal. No wasted frames, no wasted time, simple.

It's not that easy if someone runs all mediums and has to purchase a deep nuc. There is a lot of extra manipulation and wasted time to make it work. Then you are left with deep frames that you don't really need. Just a pain in the neck.

I would set things up so it's easy for you to manage. There seems to always be a shortage of nucs in the spring. I'm sure you could find a niche market for medium nucs, you might even be able to get a premium on your nuc price. And if not, there is always the deep nuc segment that you could market. Just explain to them how easy it would be to start with a medium nuc, as described above. If you have good healthy nucs in the spring, deep or medium, they will sell.


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## AL from Georgia (Jul 14, 2014)

I am fairly inexperienced, but I think you answered your own question when you said 'everyone in my area uses deeps for their brood.' Also, I can tell you from my limited experience to be careful who you take advice from. Just my opinion, good luck with the nucs.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

All the advantages?? What about the disadvantages? Not being standard, having more frames to look through, and more frames and equipment to buy? Not saying all mediums are bad just that there are some disadvantages. I sell some nucs each year and very few people ever ask for medium nucs. On these forums all mediums are talked about a lot but in reality they make up a very small percentage of all the nucs sells. Not trying to change your mind just something to think about.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I guess if there was a clear cut obvious answer, the OP would never have started the thread. He has a lot to think about. There are advantages and disadvantages either way you go. It all comes down to personal preference and individual management style.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I'd be shocked if nucs of any style didn't sell.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rookie2531 said:


> I have been thinking of a solution, but the only thing I can think of is doing both, but that is not really good for sharing resources.


all of my hives are single deeps and medium supers. i have thought about trying some all medium hives. i think i will have one or two this spring that the bees will have moved up into the supers leaving the bottom deeps empty. i will probably remove the deeps on these and let them become all mediums. i don't see a problem with having both configurations going on at the same time, especially once you get your hive count up to the pointing of selling quantities of nucs. it would be pretty easy to combine a medium queenright nuc over a queenless deep of bees and you are back to that configuration again.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

rookie2531 said:


> I want to switch and start using all mediums for the pros of doing so, but I also want to start making and selling nucs ( in a couple years). I have asked and everyone in my area uses deeps for their brood. If I just sell medium nucs, do you think that would prevent sales? It is crunch time as I will start making the woodenware soon. Maybe there is some way to make a deep extension to add to the frames to turn them into deeps when someone says they want deeps?
> 
> I have been thinking of a solution, but the only thing I can think of is doing both, but that is not really good for sharing resources. I have 3 hives with one deep on them and two mediums each and want to have a good plan before I get too many boxes and frames that I eventually don't want and have to start cutting them. So what would you do? Both, just mediums and tell potential customers, sorry.


You can sell both until your three deeps are gone. Then you can sell medium nucs and make an exchange wtih deep frames when the medium frames are empty if the customer does not what mediums frames that had brood in them. Or you can reduce your nuc price by 8-10 dollars and your customer can buy his own frames. No one should have any problems getting a nuc in deep or medium form regardless of what equipment they want to run.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

I'd make the nucs on medium frames and also make some boxes that would occupy the space underneath when the nuc was installed in a deep. You could sell the box to those customers that don't want to let the bees use the bottoms of the frames as top bars for more comb.
Bill


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I had no problem at all selling mediums. I think it makes sense to sell 10 frame medium singles as starter hives. I find most people buying nucs are just starting out and find the equipment side confusing. Selling a complete setup makes it easy for them to get started.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've met a lot of people looking for medium nucs. I've never met anyone raising medium nuc who was having trouble selling them.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I started out with all mediums. I bought 2 nucs. After I saw how many bees were in a deep, I felt ripped off. 

I have since switched to double-deep brood boxes and really like the difference despite the extra weight. The bees seem to appreciate the difference too.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I got my start by purchasing an 8 frame med nuc. brought it home set in on the bottom board swapped the top and one week later was ready to add a second box, it couldn't have been easier.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

dsegrest said:


> I started out with all mediums. I bought 2 nucs. After I saw how many bees were in a deep, I felt ripped off.


What did you get? There typically is 4 or 5 frames in a deep nuc there should be 8 or 10 frames in a medium nuc. Not much difference between the two.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> 10 frames in a medium nuc.


10 frame equipment is not usually referred to as a nuc.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cg3 said:


> 10 frame equipment is not usually referred to as a nuc.


And why would you say that? Would you equate a 4 pound package the same a two pound package? I wouldn't.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Originally Posted by *cg3* 
10 frame equipment is not usually referred to as a nuc.


Acebird said:


> And why would you say that?


Simple, because it not..........at least by all the beekeepers to whom I've spoken.....


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Nuc, stands for nucleus.

The nucleus, of a hive. Bare essentials. Not a full hive.

Where I am we talk about nucs, single deckers, two deckers, etc.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Nuc, stands for nucleus.
> 
> The nucleus, of a hive. Bare essentials. Not a full hive.
> 
> Where I am we talk about nucs, single deckers, two deckers, etc.


We do the close to the same, nucs, singles, doubles.........except for Ace (evidently).......


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

He might be right. He's probably got a nuc like that, right out back.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I would have a deep on the bottom board and all mediums above. You wouldn't have to pick up the deep , as it remains on the bottom. You can make your nucs from the bottom box with deep frames, harvest honey from the mediums, so all the boxes you have to lift would be mediums. You could make deep nucs or medium nucs because there would surely be brood in the bottom medium.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Nuc, stands for nucleus.
> 
> The nucleus, of a hive. Bare essentials. Not a full hive.
> 
> Where I am we talk about nucs, single deckers, two deckers, etc.


OT do you sell single decker mediums with 5 frames total and do you sell them at the same price as a single decker deep with 5 frames (if you have them)? My comment was based on Dsegrest feeling he got ripped off. If he paid the same for a 5 frame medium nuc as you would for a 5 frame deep nuc I feel he is right. I would not make such a deal because I know there is a difference.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> You could make deep nucs or medium nucs because there would surely be brood in the bottom medium.


On a large scale this might work OK but on a small scale you end up with issues having mixed equipment for the brood chambers. That is why many people are following MIchael Bush's recommendation of same equipment.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Acebird said:


> OT do you sell single decker mediums with 5 frames total and do you sell them at the same price as a single decker deep with 5 frames (if you have them)? My comment was based on Dsegrest feeling he got ripped off. If he paid the same for a 5 frame medium nuc as you would for a 5 frame deep nuc I feel he is right. I would not make such a deal because I know there is a difference.


I did buy a 5 frame medium. Two of the teachers in the bee school were selling them, "just to help out the new guys".


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ace I have no mediums, I am too small scale to have two different sizes, I only have deeps. I sell 4 frame nucs $140, or 10 frame singles, $250. That's NZ $$, in US dollars at todays exchange rate that's $109 and $194.

He's right about feeling ripped off, medium nucs are a fair bit less substantial but the frames cost close to the same, the labour to make them is the same, so for the vendor to do OK he has to charge around the same.

I do get folks wanting mediums, I just tell them where they can buy some medium equipment, get them to bring it around & I put bees in it and tell them to collect it in a few weeks when it's properly up and running. But actually owning medium equipment, well that's just going to add a whole layer of complexity to what I do.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

OT I don't see the equation working out to be equal. Granted the frames are the same price but 5 frames (about a buck a piece) is less then the tax you would pay for something over 100 bucks. I feel what you are paying for in a nuc is bees and resources plus the expertise of the beekeeper making the nuc to insure its success. The expertise of the beekeeper should be the same but the number of bees and resources are not the same if you use the same frame count. So the price of a 5 frame medium in my book should be about 1/2 the cost of the deeps resources plus 5 bucks. If you sell a 4 deep nuc for 110 then I think a 4 frame medium should be 75-80 bucks.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> On a large scale this might work OK but on a small scale you end up with issues having mixed equipment for the brood chambers. That is why many people are following MIchael Bush's recommendation of same equipment.


You do? Issues?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

looks like oldtimer is using one size equipment, deeps??? sounds efficient to me.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ace, discrepancy or not, I am charging what is within the standard price range for these things at this time. With a thriving market for live bees here currently there is a known and accepted range of prices. It is what the customer wants to pay. And yes, it's all deeps, few get mediums.

What are you driving at, and why?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> So the price of a 5 frame medium in my book should be...


Why shouldn't it be higher, if that's what they want and they can't find it anywhere else?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

A little bit off topic .... but does anyone know approximately how many lbs. of bees there would be in a typical 5 frame deep nuc?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

2 or maybe 3 lbs. Although it varies. If the nuc is to be shipped they may have a considerably lessor amount of bees to minimise risk of suffocation. Amount of brood is also important, if they have several combs with solid slabs of brood, that nuc will get pumping and fill the first 10 frame box real fast and need another box within weeks


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I was thinking 2.5 pounds but typically nucs are sold locally or travel short distances so there is not the death rate that there would be in a package. But a 5 frame medium nuc might be less than 2 pounds which will still survive but it will take a lot longer to reach critical bee mass and most likely will not produce honey.
If someone wants to sell you a 5 frame medium nuc for the same price as a 5 frame deep nuc go to someone else or buy the deep nuc and throw a 3" shim under your medium box the first year. Comon you can't be that stupid to think they are the same.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I believe that if someone is selling medium nucs and wants to provide a product comparable to a 5 frame deep nuc they would need to be selling 8 frame medium nucs. That would be about the same amount of comb as in a 5 frame deep. A little bit more, but close enough. 

That's 3 extra frames that the seller would need to invest per nuc if they were selling mediums rather than deeps. So we're talking about an extra $4.00 or so investment for the frames and wax foundation per nuc, correct?


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

"Comon you can't be that stupid..."?

Surely a guy can't be stupid enough to think a producer will accept a third to a half less money for the same amount of work.

To a buyer, the purchase value of a nuc is the lowest price he has to pay for a nuc of similar quality in his market area.

To a seller, the sale value of a nuc is the highest total compensation a significant number of buyers are willing to give him for it.

To undercharge is a worse offense than to overcharge.
Because if one overcharges, he defrauds only a stranger, or at worst, a neighbor.

But if he fails to change he a full.market price for his goods overall, he defrauds his own children of their inheritance.

If you can buy high quality nucs at discount compared to the price of deeps by all means, you should.

And if another fellow can sell the same product at a premium, you should let him, and most appropriate ly, you should.let him mind his business instead of trying to do it for him.

You're not talking to a new, ignorant producer who doesn't know the value of his product.
His nick is Oldtimer for a reason.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Beregondo said:


> Surely a guy can't be stupid enough to think a producer will accept a third to a half less money for the same amount of work.


Women have been doing it for all that I can remember.
My comment relates to the consumer and his/her feelings about getting a fair deal. It is always better to buy what a producer sells on a regular basis then to buy something special that they really don't want to produce.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Acebird said:


> OT I don't see the equation working out to be equal. Granted the frames are the same price but 5 frames (about a buck a piece) is less then the tax you would pay for something over 100 bucks. I feel what you are paying for in a nuc is bees and resources plus the expertise of the beekeeper making the nuc to insure its success. The expertise of the beekeeper should be the same but the number of bees and resources are not the same if you use the same frame count. So the price of a 5 frame medium in my book should be about 1/2 the cost of the deeps resources plus 5 bucks. If you sell a 4 deep nuc for 110 then I think a 4 frame medium should be 75-80 bucks.


I don't think the price is the issue. I think the number of frames (bees and resources) is the issue. A medium nuc should probably have at least 8 frames.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rookie2531 said:


> I want to switch and start using all mediums for the pros of doing so, but I also want to start making and selling nucs ( in a couple years).


Do the one thing first and then let it be known that you will have medium depth nucs to sell. If there is a need for them people will find you. You may want to start out by cutting your deep frames/combs down to medium depth size or just get rid of your deep equipment.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> So the price of a 5 frame medium in my book should be about 1/2 the cost of the deeps resources plus 5 bucks. If you sell a 4 deep nuc for 110 then I think a 4 frame medium should be 75-80 bucks.


Makes sense to you, but you don't produce or sell nucs of any size. So what you don't understand is that it takes as much work to produce both sizes and the cost of the equipment isn't that much different, so for someone making and selling 5 frame deep nucs and 5 frame medium nucs to them, the producer/seller, there is not very much difference. Dealing with the customer is the same for sure. So, whereas there may be some reason for a smaller price for a medium 5 frame nuc over a deep 5 frame nuc it's not going to be half or one third. Ten percent maybe.

What you don't understand comes from not doing it yourself. Where have I heard that before?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cg3 said:


> Why shouldn't it be higher, if that's what they want and they can't find it anywhere else?


:thumbsup: But you are thinking like a capitalist Charlie. Stop that. lol


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

dsegrest said:


> I don't think the price is the issue. I think the number of frames (bees and resources) is the issue. A medium nuc should probably have at least 8 frames.


Is that what you bought? What did you pay for what you bought? What did you expect to get that you didn't?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> What you don't understand comes from not doing it yourself.


What you seem to have lost touch with is the consumer dictates price not the producer. And as a producer you equate everything as work which is wrong. Work is a function of how smart you are. I know people who work their butts off and get nowhere. And I know people who sit on their butts and are rolling in dough. It is not always about work.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> What you seem to have lost touch with is the consumer dictates price not the producer.


It would be fun to watch you at the gas station.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

dsegrest said:


> I don't think the price is the issue. I think the number of frames (bees and resources) is the issue. A medium nuc should probably have at least 8 frames.


Getting to the size of a single high medium hive at that point. For which I would charge full hive prices.

My med. nucs are 5 frames, and sometimes the last frame is nearly empty so there is room for expansion and they don't swarm on me before the customer picks it up. My med. nucs are the same price as everyone else's deep nucs. >5 med. frame nuc the same price as a 5 deep frame nuc.<
If they don't want the med. I'll sell one of my deep nucs and the buyer can go home and fool with the deep to medium conversion for the next few months. Only those with some experience will attempt it and those few who continually cut off their noses in spite of their faces.
Medium set ups are more expensive to run per bee area than deeps. Medium nucs are more expensive per bee area for the same reason.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cg3 said:


> It would be fun to watch you at the gas station.


You can thank me for the lower price at the pump these days.


clyderoad said:


> I'll sell one of my deep nucs and the buyer can go home and fool with the deep to medium conversion for the next few months.


Probably a good selling point playing into a newbies ignorance of fooling with the hive until they kill it. Leave it the heck alone. Pick the deep frames out next spring when the box is empty.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> What you seem to have lost touch with is the consumer dictates price not the producer.


What you don't understand is that as a beekeeper I can make money whether I sell my nucs or not. If I want to sell 5 frame nucs for $200.00 and no one buys them I can still make a crop of honey and make my $200.00.

Everything I have is for sale, as long as someone is willing to pay MY price for it. if not I'm going to make money off of it anyway. That's how beekeepers see things. You come at it from somewhere else.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I was thinking 2.5 pounds but typically nucs are sold locally or travel short distances so there is not the death rate that there would be in a package. But a 5 frame medium nuc might be less than 2 pounds which will still survive but it will take a lot longer to reach critical bee mass and most likely will not produce honey.


You don't know what you're talking about...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You can thank me for the lower price at the pump these days.


Are you really so foolish as to think that consumers had anything to do with the price of gas?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BeeCurious said:


> You don't know what you're talking about...


Bee, don't tell him that. It'll just make him mad.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> What you don't understand is that as a beekeeper I can make money whether I sell my nucs or not. If I want to sell 5 frame nucs for $200.00 and no one buys them I can still make a crop of honey and make my $200.00.
> 
> Everything I have is for sale, as long as someone is willing to pay MY price for it. if not I'm going to make money off of it anyway. That's how beekeepers see things. You come at it from somewhere else.


I actually agree with you, that you should make money on whatever you do. That doesn't change the fact that, due to my inexperience, I got ripped off. The next year I bought a deep nuc and a double deep hive. I paid considerably more. I got more for my money.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

if you start a 3 lb. package on drawn or part drawn comb and a 5 full frame nuc side by side both with similar queens, at the same time, in 5 weeks there will not be a lot of difference. with a good queen and good weather, it would be the package ahead of the nuc if anything. a 5 frame med. nuc will not keep up with a package of similar quality bees. in a long season starting early the med. nuc could be ok, but do not think it is the same, you are kidding yourself.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

mathesonequip said:


> if you start a 3 lb. package on drawn or part drawn comb and a 5 full frame nuc side by side both with similar queens, at the same time, in 5 weeks there will not be a lot of difference. with a good queen and good weather, it would be the package ahead of the nuc if anything. a 5 frame med. nuc will not keep up with a package of similar quality bees. in a long season starting early the med. nuc could be ok, but do not think it is the same, you are kidding yourself.


what's the difference in starting a 5 frame nuc and a 3lb. package on drawn comb at the same time? they are both 'packages'.
or do i not understand what you are saying?
an established nuc, even if only established for 2 weeks before the package arrives will be way ahead of the package 5 weeks later. that is benefit of nucs, right?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I've heard a 5fr med nuc described as 'a package plus a month'.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

dsegrest said:


> I actually agree with you, that you should make money on whatever you do. That doesn't change the fact that, due to my inexperience, I got ripped off. The next year I bought a deep nuc and a double deep hive. I paid considerably more. I got more for my money.


how the heck did you get ripped off? 
no one is going to sell an 8 frame medium nuc. They will add two frames and use it for production!
have you voiced your displeasure to those teachers who you claimed ripped you off?


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I've purchased both packages and 5 frame medium nuc's , the package was started on new foundation and seemed very slow to get going without any resources to help them other than feeding . The five frame med. nuc was impressive grew fast and strong but I didn't take any honey from them the first year , they got up to 125-135 pds in three box's by late fall and you have to take in consideration we had an awful dry August and the honey production really fell off for me as I didn't recognize the dearth and help them out with feeding in time . If a good flow had continued and no dearth there would have been some extra honey buts it probably just as well to let them have it all the first year.It will be fun watching them take off this spring and they will probably make good candidates for splitting.I was thrilled the nuc supplier was willing to go out of his way and make up some mediums for me and save the work of me working the deep equip. out of the colony , which I already went through .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> What you seem to have lost touch with is the consumer dictates price not the producer. And as a producer you equate everything as work which is wrong. Work is a function of how smart you are. I know people who work their butts off and get nowhere. And I know people who sit on their butts and are rolling in dough. It is not always about work.


Okay, since you are the expert here, what is a fair/decent/appropriate price that one should sell a 5 frame nuc for and upon what do you base your reasoning?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

dsegrest said:


> I actually agree with you, that you should make money on whatever you do. That doesn't change the fact that, due to my inexperience, I got ripped off. The next year I bought a deep nuc and a double deep hive. I paid considerably more. I got more for my money.


If you paid what you thought was reasonable at the time you did not get ripped off, you did not get cheated. You may not have understood what you thought you did at the time and you may now be equating things that don't have anything to do with each other. BUT, the bottom line for you, is that you feel as though you were cheated, taken advantage of, ripped off. And the only one who can change that is you. 

Do you believe that the person who sold you your first nuc intended to take advantage of you as a novice? If you feel cheated, maybe you had certain expectations which you should not have had.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> how the heck did you get ripped off?
> no one is going to sell an 8 frame medium nuc. They will add two frames and use it for production!
> have you voiced your displeasure to those teachers who you claimed ripped you off?


I seldom express my displeasure to people who sell me something crummy. I vote with my feet.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you believe that the person who sold you your first nuc intended to take advantage of you as a novice? If you feel cheated, maybe you had certain expectations which you should not have had.


I do not believe their intention was actually to "cheat" us. I do think they were a little bit opportunistic. This year they were at the bee class selling bees, but they were not in charge of the class. I was there as a co-mentor with a more experienced beek. The guy I bought this years bees was there selling bees. He sold a lot more than they did at a higher price, but a greater value.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

dsegrest said:


> I seldom express my displeasure to people who sell me something crummy. I vote with my feet.


well you didn't hesitate to express it here.
maybe some of the responses will be useful to you down the road.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Everyone in NH/MA uses deeps too, but I only sell medium nucs. (NH/VT/MA beek) I sold out last year, and will sell out at close to 200 nucs this year. 
IMO, I think people are sick of getting junk bees, and assurance that your medium nucs are high quality is more important than the size of the frame. I haven't had any pushback from the mediums, and quite contrary, I find it easier to set newbies up with medium equipment than explaining a mixture of box sizes. I also overwinter up north on mediums and do well. So if you are finding success with it, and you believe you can pass that success onto other beeks, then go with it.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I never considered before that medium nuc frames are unlikely to have come off problematic pollination contracts (like cranberries).


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> what's the difference in starting a 5 frame nuc and a 3lb.
> or do i not understand what you are saying?
> an established nuc, even if only established for 2 weeks before the package arrives will be way ahead of the package 5 weeks later. that is benefit of nucs, right?


I meant a good established 5 frame deep nuc and a good quality package. in 5 weeks not a lot of difference. the nuc has the reputation of being better, this advantage would be over a poor "package" queen and no drawn comb. drawn comb really is an underated asset. in a few weeks, with enough bees, you are looking at queen quality. there are more bees in a package than in most 5 frame deep nucs. a good 5 frame deep nuc is more like a 2 lb. package and would have the advantage of started brood. after about 5 weeks or so the package or nuc are about the same in your line of hives. small colonies can take a lot of time to catch up. I have seen some poor medium nucs, not enough bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

dsegrest said:


> I seldom express my displeasure to people who sell me something crummy. I vote with my feet.


Maybe you should take the initiative. Maybe there was a misunderstanding. You are not giving the seller a chance to make things right or to improve. The onus is on you to let him know you didn't get what you expected.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

mathesonequip said:


> I meant a good established 5 frame deep nuc and a good quality package. in 5 weeks not a lot of difference. the nuc has the reputation of being better, this advantage would be over a poor "package" queen and no drawn comb. drawn comb really is an underated asset. in a few weeks, with enough bees, you are looking at queen quality. there are more bees in a package than in most 5 frame deep nucs. a good 5 frame deep nuc is more like a 2 lb. package and would have the advantage of started brood. after about 5 weeks or so the package or nuc are about the same in your line of hives. small colonies can take a lot of time to catch up. I have seen some poor medium nucs, not enough bees.


my experience has been the exact opposite.
a good established 5 frame deep nuc has a enormous advantage over a 3 lb. pkg. It's a numbers game. new bees hatching vs bee loss for 21 days, among other advantages, and the colonies' development bears this out.
There are many references to this development difference.
I'm somewhat surprised at your assessment of nucs vs pkgs.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

clyderoad.. I am surprised too. everything you read says nucs are a big advantage, not my experence. must be I was more carefull of which packages I got. I knew last year where to get med. nucs [treatment-free] for less $ than the packages I got, not what happened. I got some packages from mann-lake and some nice deep nucs from a commercial local producer. it is the individuals choice and judgment, all the mann-lake queens are doing fine, the nuc queens are gone except one.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I was surprised to about the nuc vs. package comparison until I re-read again that he is comparing the two with drawn comb for the package which would make a big difference . I think of most packages being dumped on new foundation like a new beek just starting out with no drawn comb available , in this case a new beek would be way ahead with nuc's be it deeps or mediums .


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I'm surprised because it just doesn't happen that way, not for me.
The nucs develope faster every time, that's why I make them.
I can not wait on the development time a pkg takes in the spring.

5 weeks out the pkg has 2lbs of bees and if your lucky a frame of brood just starting to emerge.
My nucs are well beyond that stage and probably in 2 stories.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

some drawn comb so the queen can lay right away is the key to great package results. it only takes a couple of drawn frames and food and pollen-sub.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mathesonequip said:


> the nuc queens are gone except one.


You bought a so so package in a nuc box. The queen should not go in a nuc.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Okay, since you are the expert here, what is a fair/decent/appropriate price that one should sell a 5 frame nuc for and upon what do you base your reasoning?


Post #43


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> If you sell a 4 deep nuc for 110 then I think a 4 frame medium should be 75-80 bucks.


If you sell a nuc for $110, you're nuts. Presently, they're selling for $150-200+

Just sayin'


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> you're nuts.


I think most of us have figured that out.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> If you sell a nuc for $110, you're nuts. Presently, they're selling for $150-200+
> 
> Just sayin'


Maybe so Mike but when you were selling a nuc for $125 I bought the two I had for $70 and they were 5 frame deeps. He also went around to local schools and communities teaching people about bees and I don't think he ever charged a nickle for it. So he was really a nut case. But everyone likes him.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I wish candy bars were still a nickel.


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## linn (Nov 19, 2010)

I do not believe in the statement the "crummy package queen." Sometimes packages fail because feeding is stopped too soon. The practice of killing the package queen does not make sense. Why not see what you have for a package queen? I have gotten some pretty nice hives from package queens.

P.S. Anyways, I prefer packages to nucs and deeps to mediums. Were the real money is too be made is in the selling of lifting devices or portable hive work stands for those workings with deeps.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Maybe so Mike but when you were selling a nuc for $125 I bought the two I had for $70 and they were 5 frame deeps. He also went around to local schools and communities teaching people about bees and I don't think he ever charged a nickle for it. So he was really a nut case. But everyone likes him.


I would never say someone was a nut case for teaching people in communities and/or schools. We all do that. Selling nucs for $70 is totally nuts. Package bees cost more than that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Maybe so Mike but when you were selling a nuc for $125 I bought the two I had for $70 and they were 5 frame deeps. He also went around to local schools and communities teaching people about bees and I don't think he ever charged a nickle for it. So he was really a nut case. But everyone likes him.


You bought those nucs a few years ago from an elderly gentleman who has everything paid for and lives off of his Military Pension. He can afford, at least in his mind, to sell nucs at cost. You Sir are not living in the real world where people support themselves doing what the rest of us are doing. So your comparison is not even apples and oranges but more like apples and sedimentary rock.

If you want to compare what the Colonel does and what Michael Palmer does maybe you should know that Michael doesn't give his knowledge away to school kids for free he pays people to learn what he knows.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> ... teaching people in communities and/or schools. We all do that.


Don't give him any ideas.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The real question is that when Ace needs to buy more bees in the spring, if he can't get any more $70 nucs, will he need to update his "Beekeeping is a very cheap hobby" thread? 


k:


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

Acebird said:


> You bought a so so package in a nuc box. The queen should not go in a nuc.


not so ace, I know better. I know where the queen cells came from, I also that there was a difficult mating situation last spring. the brood in the boxes was from the queen in the boxes, the later in the summer replacement queens were from the same place as the nuc producer got the original cells. it started well. such is life.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

cg3 said:


> It would be fun to watch you at the gas station.


No, he determines the price he buys gas at.

If it's too high, 
_he just walks away._


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> You bought those nucs a few years ago from an elderly gentleman who has everything paid for and lives off of his Military Pension. He can afford, at least in his mind, to sell nucs at cost.


I am absolutely certain that he was not selling the nucs at raw cost. Other people in the club were doing the same. I don't begrudge you or Michael Palmer for selling your products for what ever you can get but if someone wants to sell theirs for less I don't think they are nuts.

Who are these 150-200 dollar nucs being sold to? Other commercial beekeepers. That seems unlikely.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I am absolutely certain that he was not selling the nucs at raw cost.


So it wasn't some kind of Special Needs Program?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

No, I would assume he sold them to everyone for the same price.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Who are these 150-200 dollar nucs being sold to?


Ask Betterbee. They sold 100 of my nucs last spring for [email protected] Sold out almost as soon as the ad was posted. I sold to beekeepers for [email protected] and turned away hundreds. Perhaps your old timer is living in the past and doesn't know the value of nucleus colonies...now-a-days.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Who are these 150-200 dollar nucs being sold to? Other commercial beekeepers. That seems unlikely.


I think charging $30,000-50,000 for a new truck is too much.

Who are these 30,000-50,000 dollar trucks being sold to? Other commercial truck dealers? That seems unlikely.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The real question is that when Ace needs to buy more bees in the spring, if he can't get any more $70 nucs, will he need to update his "Beekeeping is a very cheap hobby" thread?
> 
> 
> k:


Stop being so pessimistic! There's always the chance of finding a swarm in a dumpster, or along the road, walking back from the gas station...


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## Bmcq (May 29, 2013)

I decided to go with one size equipment, cut down my deeps and now have all 8 frame. works for me. My pricing is based on the labor & equipment not just the bees. Of cause all nucs are packed with bees. So if I were selling both 5 frame med or a 5 frame deep the would sell at the same price. If I were selling you a medium I'm going to charge the same price as a deep, because the labor and time involved it about the same.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Went to Dadants web site & checked frame prices.

Plastic deep ='s $2.70, medium ='s $2.17. A difference of $0.53.

5 x's $0.53 ='s $2.65.

So it could be argued that if a 5 frame deep nuc is worth $205.00, a 5 frame medium is $202.35.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

But isn't the brood worth anything? If a 5 frame nuc has 3 frames of brood, medium nucs would have less sq. in. of brood and should cost proportionally less? Thinking out loud. But, if the deep had 3 frames of brood and the medium 4, wouldn't that be about the same?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes that's the dilemma. The medium nuc, in terms of what the purchaser gets, should be worth less. But in terms of cost to the producer, there's not much in it.

Labour wise, whether the nuc is deep or medium, 5 frames have to be handled, one queen supplied, the nuc handled, one sale made.

Against that it could be argued that 2 deep broodnest hives are roughly equivalent to 3 medium broodnest hives, so if making nucs from those one could make more 5 frame nucs from the 3 medium box hive than the 2 deep hive. However it also needs to be considered there is more work and cost in running the 3 medium box hive than the 2 deep box hive.

What I do when people want medium nucs, they supply the gear and I put bees in, I factor in what they had to spend on the gear, then charge the balance so it is the same as what they would pay to get a deep nuc from me. I'll normally set it up in a medium single that they supplied, and may put a few extra bees in so it's about what they would have got if they bought a deep but wouldn't have to do that, but around here the only people who get mediums are new beginners so I just like to make sure those beeks are going to get a crop the first season.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Anyone who sells anything for less than what they could have gotten for what they sold is in effect subsidizing the buyer, suppressing the market, and taking food off the tables of those who make a living from the sales of those items. Selling something for less than what you can is leaving money on the table.

What is raw cost? That's a new term for me. Is that an Acebirdism?


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

OK, A lot of discussion here and I have been following, but here is one thought that I have had. I have heard others that make nucs, say they throw in (example). 1 frame brood, 2 frames honey and 2 empty frames foundation. Or something to that effect. But if one was to buy a deep nuc, is that what you get or are they busting out the seems, all drawn and full? If not, then a full medium (seem buster) would be the same, if not better than a partial deep, right. I know that people want to give them room, in case they don't get installed right away, but a full medium nuc would make up the lesser deep partial nuc, no? 

I am still on the fence and will probably do both this year and next and see what's in demand. And how this discussion is going is a good indicator of why I haven't made a clear choice yet. Now, should I go with 8f or 10f? Ha ha ha.


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## Bmcq (May 29, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> But isn't the brood worth anything?


Yes it is, but for me it comes down to time and labor


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Who are these 150-200 dollar nucs being sold to? Other commercial beekeepers. That seems unlikely.


That is *VERY* unlikely, and not suggested by anyone... 



I sold some 5-frame medium nucs last Spring. Two of them were really nice, full of bees, with very good laying patterns; I sold those two for $165 each. Some others were sold to friends or otherwise reduced in price according to how I considered it. I have provided a few nucs to a couple of beekeeping friends the past couple of years but for now, I intend to keep all of my bees in 2015...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rookie2531 said:


> OK, A lot of discussion here and I have been following, but here is one thought that I have had. I have heard others that make nucs, say they throw in (example). 1 frame brood, 2 frames honey and 2 empty frames foundation. Or something to that effect.


That is how one starts a nuc so it will grow into the mature nuc ready to sell.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> That is how one starts a nuc so it will grow into the mature nuc ready to sell.


OK, wasn't sure. Thanks

I definitely don't want people to walk away with bad feelings. I understand, you can't please all, but I just want to get it right and give good nucs for a fair price.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Rookie when you sell the nuc, if you call it a 5 frame nuc, people would not be expecting two of those frames to be foundation. Best way to look at it is through the eyes of your customers. They will be happy if all combs are properly drawn, plus full of either brood or feed, plus the nuc is choca with bees.
If you are just starting you want good customer references so make those first customers happy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rookie2531 said:


> OK, wasn't sure. Thanks
> 
> I definitely don't want people to walk away with bad feelings. I understand, you can't please all, but I just want to get it right and give good nucs for a fair price.


If I start a nuc that way, say in late March or any time in April, by the time mine are ready to sell there will be 3 frames of brood in the middle and the outside frames will be honey on the outside sides and honey and brood on the inside sides. And loads of adult bees.

When you make nucs to sell you don't want them on the verge of swarming or even leaning towards thinking about swarming. If you have them a while you may need to rob a frame of honey and a frame of brood from them so there is somewhere for the queen to lay and somewhere for the bees to store honey. They should be ready to sell before dandelion bloom and apple blossom bloom if possible. And then you should have enough of them to be able to sell some after apple and dandelion are past.

I have nucs all through the Summer and into the Fall so I can use them to keep my pallets full should the need arise. Dave Mendes recommends one nuc for every 4 hives. You can always super them and transfer them into ten frame equipment down the road. Or Winter them in two story 5 frame nuc boxes.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Anyone who sells anything for less than what they could have gotten for what they sold is in effect subsidizing the buyer, suppressing the market, and taking food off the tables of those who make a living from the sales of those items. Selling something for less than what you can is leaving money on the table.
> 
> What is raw cost? That's a new term for me. Is that an Acebirdism?


It works for Walmart. Of course you frequently get what you pay for.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Best way to look at it is through the eyes of your customers. They will be happy if all combs are properly drawn, plus full of either brood or feed, plus the nuc is choca with bees.


Holy cow OT at first I thought you were against that idea.

Rookie, by and large the medium nuc will be sold to a back yard beekeeper with no interest in making money on bees. They are looking for instant success so shorting them on frames and bees is not going to leave a good impression. I suspect you are not looking for contracts with BetterBee so your prices will not reflect the BetterBee catalog. If you are looking to target the back yard beekeeper you should set up your nucs in 8 frame equipment and I think the best approach is a system like what I bought. The customer supplies the equipment (typically new) the producer (you) removes the customers frames and puts in his own along with a new queen. Mine were marked. The producer watches over the development of the nuc and when it is 75% full the customer comes and gets it. This may take a month. In a very short time the customer is going to add another box. Both the producer and the customer make out. The producer gets new frames and the customer gets an established nuc that is as close to a thriving hive as you can get. There is always a question in the customers mind if a hive dies. Was it my fault or was it the producers fault. This method darn near eliminates all questions about that.

The customer decides what value he wants. The supplier decides what margin he can live with. Profits have more to do with what percentage of the market the supplier gets. This is precisely why Walmart is king.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

dsegrest said:


> It works for Walmart. Of course you frequently get what you pay for.


Selling one item compared to selling thousands of items is another kettle of fish. If someone is going to be the Walmart of bees then they had better have a huge product line.

Whether you get what you pay for at Walmart or not you pay for what you get.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

That may be the nuc procedure where you live, but it seems unneccessarily convoluted. What I've seen is- You reserve a nuc approx. 6 mos in advance by paying the price. Then, when you get a call, you go choose one and pick it up.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I think this procedure that Acebird describes is something that the Mid-York Beekeepers have worked out as a way of getting new beekeepers going and a way to encourage club growth. As far as a business model for an individual it can work out, but it is not the norm by any measure. I do know an Amish guy here in The North Country who does something similar to what Brian describes. I haven't heard of very many people recommending him as a bee supplier or that they would go back to him again. It helps to know something before buying anything. That or having a great deal of faith.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I suppose we have to ask rookie what his intentions are for the future and how much of a supplier of nucs he will be. Yes, Mark the membership has grown considerably. The problem with the normal system is if you are not a first year beek than how do you know 6 months in advance that you will need a nuc?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

That's always been a limiting factor with our newbees, they mostly start with packages.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> That or having a great deal of faith.


Every sale has faith even if you buy something from Walmart.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I suppose we have to ask rookie what his intentions are for the future and how much of a supplier of nucs he will be.


I believe that "rookie" has 3 colonies so the possibilities are rather limited. It's quite a leap from being a first year beekeeper to being one of the go-to local nuc suppliers. I recognize this as one of the daydreaming while building equipment threads. 

Dreaming is good, and building equipment that will one day be occupied by bees is certainly worthwhile. 




> if you are not a first year beek than how do you know 6 months in advance that you will need a nuc?


Insight / wisdom.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

So there was this guy who was a interested in making and selling nucs.

Every one around him sellimg nucs that he knew bought and sold deeps.

So he asked some guys (some of whom actually made a living with their bees, in part by selling nucs) if only selling nucs would prevent sales.

The folks with a fair bit of experience with trading bees for money told him, 

"Yes, it would prevent sales."

Another fellow talked about a nice day old guy who sold nucs, but not to make money.

He told the guy interested in selling nucs that he would't charge as much for what he wanted to sell, even though it was the same amount of work.

He talked about how a nonprofit he admired goes about providing nucs.

He talked about methods that helped local bee clubs grow membership.

He even talked about getting newbie beeks bees to start beekeeping with.

But he didn't tell the guy what he thought the impact would be on sales if he tried to sell medium nucs in a market where the people like to buy and sell deep ones.

On of the guys (who'd lived in New York state, where this fellow lived) thought he recognized this method of question answering -- he'd heard it before, and from men very successful in their field of endeavor.

He felt a little bad for thinking the guy responding to the question by not answering didn't know what he was doing when he realized those successful men did the same thing.

Because they were two of the most powerful men in the Empire State:

Governor Andrew Cuomo and Senator Chuck Schumer.

I think a guy like that might oughta consider throwing his hat in the ring for NYS Bee Commissioner!


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