# Pump trouble. What am i doing wrong?



## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

self priming?


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## Greeny (Jun 27, 2016)

beesohappy said:


> This is the same pump as I had before the only two differences are the 6:1 gear reducer motor and mounting it to the top of the tote.


Reducer turning the pump too slow? Can you hook it up direct for a test?


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

m8, pump is starved. Prime it.


Bill


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't have a honey/syrup pump. 

But ... as an example ... Mann Lake's pump is rated at ...


> Pumps 6-8 gallons (22.7 l - 30.27 l) per minute at [HIGHLIGHT] 1750 rpm [/HIGHLIGHT]with 90° F (32°C) liquid.
> 
> https://www.mannlakeltd.com/gear-pump-only


If you are using a gas engine (nominal 3600 rpm) with a 6:1 reducer, the pump is turning at 600 rpm. So the volume of fluid coming out of the pump is significantly less than maximum rated as the pump is running at 1/3 rated speed. 

What happens if you add a restricting valve in the line that returns fluid to the tote? I expect that partially closing this valve would help improve pressure in the other leg of the Tee output hose.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

hex0rz said:


> self priming?


This is what the manual says.

When the pump is properly installed, it will lift water 20-22 feet, unprimed.
As the pump gears wear with time, its ability to lift water gradually be
reduced. A FOOT VALVE is recommended on the end of the SUCTION
LINE to maintain prime at the pump level


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Greeny said:


> Reducer turning the pump too slow? Can you hook it up direct for a test?


I could with a different motor if I buy one. I don't think I wanna was with taking off the reducer. A buddy of mine said to go get a cheap harbor freight one.


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## TNValleyBeeK (Oct 3, 2012)

I think I have the same setup. I use a 1" hose with a 4' pvc pipe threaded on the end. I have no trouble getting suction no matter how far I stretch it or how deep the syrup is in the tank, and when I used it the first time I just stuck it down in the syrup no problem. Are you sucking air somewhere?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Have you tried starting it up, then immersing the siphon hose or seeing how much suction it's pulling?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

beesohappy said:


> The pump says it'll lift up to 20' and I'm well under that.


About that. It won't lift syrup 20 feet with just air. The system will have to be fully primed both pump and hose. Also, I tend to ignore these manufacturers claims, they are often based on best case scenario, on a good day, with all gear in perfect condition.

Other than that, is the lift they refer to, after or before the pump.

Me, regardless of manufacturers claims, I've aways set the pump at the level of the bottom of the tote. That way it self primes by gravity, doesn't have to work too hard, keeps life simple.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

If there's a compromise in the suction side of the hose anywhere that leads to an air leak you won't get prime. Can you prime the pump at all? Try and get it manually primed and see if it works. If not i would say look for an air leak.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Replace the 2" suction hose with a 1" and as others have noted prime the pump with syrup. Water just dosent work very well for priming a gear pump. I have a similar setup, it won't pull syrup with air in the suction hose more than 3' or so.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

beesohappy said:


> This is what the manual says.
> 
> When the pump is properly installed, it will lift water 20-22 feet, unprimed.
> As the pump gears wear with time, its ability to lift water gradually be
> ...


"properly installed" .. love that ;-)
Huge backdoor there!

It is a gear pump, needs fluid to begin pumping action.
The foot valve thing can be overcome with an antisyphon riser above the pump - size depends on height (pump body) above fluid level and pipe size of suction.

Bill


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I work on gear pumps and vane pumps as part of my occupation. The advise given here so far is pretty much spot on when taken all together. In order of liklyhood.

New pump not primed.

Suction line too big/collapsed. The pumps lifting capacity is based on a 1" diameter hose filled with water, not a 2" hose filled with syrup.

Air leak in the suction line/pump cover or shaft seal.

Most gear pumps are bidirectional. Suction and discharge depend in whether the motor is turning CW or CCW.

You probably don't need a foot valve but a back check valve in the line will keep you from losing prime in the future. Also make sure there is no valve on the discharge side unless you have a bypass installed. Gear pumps are positive displacement and can build up a lot of pressure.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Another thought on this, make sure the gears are turning and you didn't lose the key on one of the shafts when you installed the gear reducer.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

JWPalmer said:


> You probably don't need a foot valve but a back check valve in the line will keep you from losing prime in the future.


For a sugar syrup feeding set up I think a back check valve should be designed out and some other means of keeping the pump primed be in place. Reason being that sugar granulates and can hold a valve open enough for a slow leak when the system not actually running.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

That "granulation" thing is why I went for the AS riser, Oldtimer...no moving parts and easy cleaned/backflushed. Out of my field of expertise is this feeding gig so I can only wonder if syrup is indeed stored longer than a day?

Bill


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well I had to google AS riser to find out what one is, and couldn't find it?

But as to how long syrup lasts, a weak mix will ferment fairly quickly but a full strength mix will last several months with no added preservatives. I think it's about osmotic pressure on bugs that would try to degrade it, same principle as honey.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks guys! You definitely gave me a lot of really good ideas to try.

Yesterday I set the pump down on the bed of the truck and tried it again. I primed the pump and got it going. This morning I woke up and the the 2" hose was still full and the pump was primed so I got an idea of putting the pump back on top of the tote to see if it would work. I got it up and while still keeping the pump primed tried it again. It worked a little till the pump hit an air bubble. Right now I got it sitting back on the truck and was able to feed some bees like that. I was e and concern about the 6:1 reducer not allowing enough speed for the pump to feed the main line and the over flow but it did good. It took 11 seconds to fill a 1 gallon frame feeder.

If I did it again I think I'd lose the 6:1 and just hook the pump to the motor. My old pump worked great for mixing up sugar but I don't this one will have the flow but time will tell I guess.

Thanks again for all the ideas and as I get time I'll try implementing some of your ideas. I think the first one will be getting rid of the 2" hose. It's really heavy and adds a lot of stress on the fittings.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

My inch gear pump will self prime a 6 ft Hose. You must have a messed up gear pump.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@Oldtimer
apols, the acronym was lazy reference to my earlier post "antisyphon" riser.

Bill


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## Cape Bee (May 8, 2015)

Also remember it can be very difficult to prime with an airlock in the system.
Was the hose that you fill the feeders open at the end when you tried to prime the pump?
If it was closed that could prevent priming


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

Cape Bee said:


> Also remember it can be very difficult to prime with an airlock in the system.
> Was the hose that you fill the feeders open at the end when you tried to prime the pump?
> If it was closed that could prevent priming



...and is why the "foot valve" or "AS riser" or "check valve" setups have been suggested... it is - not could be - a pain to have to "check this, toggle that" when using the gear reguarly, no matter what it is in farm machinery.
Every setup at some time has to be used by someone else on a farm.. they stuff it or cannot get it to work as "special things need doing" and the equipment is useless.. not fit for purpose.

KISS applies always on farm... if a 10 year old carn't figure it out with a brief introduction...?... scrap the equipment.

Bill


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

No, on the feeder line is a gas pump handle. The other line for the overflow is open.

Tonight I had to feed more bees. After I got all the hives open I started the pump. At first no fluid came out but after messing with it I got it to the point of a trickle. I shut of the motor and messed with the line I have going to the top of the tote for the over flow. I crossed my fingers that it would work and thank god it did. It was dark enough at that point I had to use the flashlight on my phone to finish. Definitely had a airlock in it.


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## Cape Bee (May 8, 2015)

It is amazing the force needed to get through a bad air lock.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

anyone done a schismatic on how to plumb the pump to the tote.? Not sure where to t off for the return etc.


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## MimbresBees (Sep 22, 2016)

schematic not schismatic

schismatic is a religious person who promotes a schism.

schematics are simplified plans with symbols.

sorry to correct you, but that was way off base with 2 completely different meanings.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_EastSideBuzz_, while not a schematic or a schismatic, there are a series of photos here that may be helpful: 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?330812-Syrup-Pump-and-IBC-Tote/page2


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

RAK said:


> My inch gear pump will self prime a 6 ft Hose. You must have a messed up gear pump.


Pull the end cover off the pump and check the end clearance of the gear to cover space. Straight edge and feeler gauge. Also check tooth end clearance to housing. Even if it is new it could be "messed up"! Tooth clearance to body you cant do anything about but end clearance can be adjusted with gasket thickness or by draw filing the housing.


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