# Educate me on foundationless



## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

All my purchased equipment has so far been mann lake plastic frames, along with some inherited wood frames, some with rite cell, some with foundation, and some that were infested with wax moths and became foundationless after I hacked out most of the comb.

The plastic frames are workable but have been a lot of trouble, and I also want to produce wax, so I just ordered 100 kelley wedge top, groove bottom frames, with the intent to try foundationless, but with the ability to use foundation if things don't work out.

So, I just jam the wedge in vertically, and super with a box of foundationless, and it should work perfectly, right?

And if I cut out the comb later, I assume I leave a little bit at the top to guide them for drawing it a second time?

Or is internet wisdom going to bite me in the ***?


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

yes on the wedges, But I'd put your foundationless frames in between frames that are already drawn and straight so that the new comb is straight.


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## umchuck (May 22, 2014)

agree with the foundationless between foundation, even better is foundation-less between drawn comb you may have to feed also if there is not a good flow on,


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## flyingbrass (Jul 2, 2011)

I started putting weedeater string through the bottom holes on the frames to give the bees something to attach to. If not the last half inch they won't attach at the bottom and they bust loose making a big mess. I use the foundationless kelley frames in by bee traps!


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

Make sure the hive is level side to side. Bees hang from the center of the wedge you placed sideways like a plum bob. The bottom of the comb will be where ever the plum bob points and you want that as the center of the bottom bar. You may have some slope from front to back.

If you put foundationless frames in the hive in early spring they will pull solid drone comb. They will pull it as drone comb til they think they have enough drone cells in the hive.

I have a < 8 frame nuc whose duty is pulling brood comb to be transferred. <8 frame nuc doesnt pull comb with drone cells.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

A good way to get a foundationless frame drawn is to put them one at a time in the brood nest between full frames of brood. Interspersing foundationless or foundation between drawn combs often results in the drawn combs getting fatter until the bee space between the drawn comb is under the middle of the undrawn foundationless frame. Placing a foundationless frame next to an expanding brood next will usually get a good straight comb. Foundationless works if you want to hover over your hives repeatedly interrupting their work to make sure the combs are kept straight. If that is your style, they are fine, but I have too many hives to play that game and my prepared foundationless frames sit unused in a stack. They are about to get plasticel or duragilt put in them.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Like I said, I want to harvest wax, so i'm thinking even if they mess everything up and draw it sideways I'm going to crush and strain it anyway.

I was going to get the kelley foundationless frames but I would never be able to put foundation in those after the fact and i'm a little suspicious of how involved this whole thing is.

I should also mention that these frames are mediums, not deeps. I'm guessing they will be a little easier to get drawn on all sides


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

A lot easier than you think. just have to pay attention. I don't get a lot of attachment in the bottom on carnolians. Italians attach everything.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Or is internet wisdom going to bite me in the ***?

That has been my finding with Housel Positioning, Small Cell, no queen excluders, Warre hives, topbar hives and foundationless. All medium frame hives is still in beta testing. 

Foundationless has worked for me in the medium depth honey supers placed between drawn combs for cut comb production and even extracting frames. In the brood chamber I get more drone comb and micro management than I want. There I use wired wax foundation.


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

I regret not using foundation from the start as well as sbb . If it works for you then roll with it. Try it a few at a time.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

tanksbees said:


> So, I just jam the wedge in vertically, and super with a box of foundationless, and it should work perfectly, right?


No it won't.

See this thread -
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?314070-Bees-not-going-into-new-top-boxes


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So, I just jam the wedge in vertically, and super with a box of foundationless, and it should work perfectly, right?

It works much better to pull a drawn comb up into the next box whenever you add one so you have a "ladder" up to the top bars. Otherwise they are liable to build from the bottom bar up. Or add the new box to the bottom. I would recommend doing that for the first additional box (putting it on the bottom) as it's not much work. After that, though, it's a lot of work to unstack the boxes to put them on the bottom, so I would pull a drawn comb up instead and add them to the top.


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

ToeOfDog said:


> If you put foundationless frames in the hive in early spring they will pull solid drone comb. They will pull it as drone comb til they think they have enough drone cells in the hive.


This is what i have found too, which i have saved and use as part of my mite management strategy. 

On a related note: Been out of beekeeping for 25+ years; pulled my drone comb and poked open a few cells, saw my first living varroa crawling out of one of the cells......still figuring out how i am gonna handle all this.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

What I've noticed is that following the recommendation of putting foundationless between two brood combs you end up with the top honey band being built out double or triple thick instead of normal comb thickness. And then if they do start comb they'll avoid the thick spot by either leaving a gap and building combs on both sides (which isn't too bad)... or they'll just use that wide part as an offset and start building the comb off center in the frame instead of on the guide. 

What is the problem you perceive there to be in your current set up and what do you think foundationless is going to fix?
My thoughts after going the foundationless road for one year:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...evolution-as-a-beekeeper-I-feel-kind-of-dirty

Really upset with myself that I let what I now realize is a very vocal minority influence how I started keeping bees. Echo chamber effect, I guess.

There is no reason you cannot mix in some foundationless into your bee hives in the spring if you want to trap drones, they'll build all the drone comb you could ever want if you give them the opportunity.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> What is the problem you perceive there to be in your current set up and what do you think foundationless is going to fix?


Problems:
I am using the Mann lake PF120.
- Frames warp if they are left in the sun accidently
- The bees put lots of gunk in the crevices which I don't like
- SHB nest in the crevices (although overall SHB are not a big problem around here)
- I don't like the narrow top bar because I somtimes like to grab the frame on the top with my fingers or frame grabber
- It is impossible to cut out queen cells.
- With a mix of frame types the bees avoid the plastic and put comb in places I don't like, unless I spray the empty frames every few days with sugar water.
- I'm not 100% sure of this, but it seems like my bees are prone to swarm even when they have access to an empty box above with plastic.
- Bees make lots of wonky comb to fit in drones. Cross comb, hanging off bottom of frames, etc.

So that leads me to wood frames with either ritecell or foundation or foundationless

Ritecell doesn't let me cut queen cells.
Foundation with wire doesn't let me easily cut queen cells, and if I do cut the wire it is sharp
Foundation seems like a waste if I crush and strain, which I want to do to harvest wax, because my mother is currently obsessed with making things out of wax.
I don't like having frames sitting around with wax because wax moths always get into it, and I don't have a good way to freeze frames. Which would make me prefer plastic so I could scrape it, but then I can't cut out cells.

Ritecell could work - but seems like i'm paying an extra $1 a frame, for little to no benefit.

I also thought about just using a box with top bars above a QE, and letting the bees make wild comb, and chopping out the whole mess once it is all capped. It actually seems like quite a viable option for what I want to do, as long as I don't let them raise brood in it.

I'm not doing this for fortune or fame so efficiency isn't important. Obviously it is inefficient to force the bees to repeatedly make lots of wax.

I'm most definitely not buying into the foundationless bandwagon as of yet, just seems to be one tool in the toolbox.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

tanksbees said:


> Problems:
> I am using the Mann lake PF120.
> - Frames warp if they are left in the sun accidently
> - The bees put lots of gunk in the crevices which I don't like
> ...


I had the pleasure of inspecting the only hive I have ever inspected that was drawn fully on plastic foundation. It has basically been untouched by the owner since last year when they shook it in as a package. She is moving, can't take it with her so she contacted me and I offered to take good care of it for her. 

Anyway, moved it Friday night. Let them settle Saturday and dug into it Sunday. It's double deep was impeccably drawn. Drone was crammed in some places on the corners of the frame and on the bottoms between boxes. But there were ZERO frames built out too wide. Zero frames that I had to worry about breaking off. Zero frames that weren't just dandy truthfully. I'm almost embarrassed that I bought some of the hype on here hook-line-and-sinker.

I understand your goals are different, but the perception that foundation is "wasted", maybe be a miscalculation. 

But I always say, make your own decisions and be ready to deal with whatever consequences there are. 

It is a tool, however. In fact, I placed two foundationless frames in between full capped frames of honey in the top deep. I figure they can't really screw that up as the chances of them drawing cells out deeper once they're capped are slim, right? And I added a couple plastic frames in their brood nest in the bottom deep. We'll see how they do.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> I had the pleasure of inspecting the only hive I have ever inspected that was drawn fully on plastic foundation. It has basically been untouched by the owner since last year when they shook it in as a package. She is moving, can't take it with her so she contacted me and I offered to take good care of it for her.
> 
> Anyway, moved it Friday night. Let them settle Saturday and dug into it Sunday. It's double deep was impeccably drawn. Drone was crammed in some places on the corners of the frame and on the bottoms between boxes. But there were ZERO frames built out too wide. Zero frames that I had to worry about breaking off. Zero frames that weren't just dandy truthfully. I'm almost embarrassed that I bought some of the hype on here hook-line-and-sinker.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt any of that - just be warned that they don't draw the full plastic frames the same way. They also draw it much better when you leave it untouched. If you move frames around, like putting a honey frame next to an empty plastic frame, you will definitely get wide comb.

Nothing is perfect, I think that's one of the big lessons in beekeeiping.

With the wedge top I can always add foundation or ritecell later, that's why I didn't want to buy the special kelley foundationless frames.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

tanksbees said:


> I don't doubt any of that - just be warned that they don't draw the full plastic frames the same way. They also draw it much better when you leave it untouched. If you move frames around, like putting a honey frame next to an empty plastic frame, you will definitely get wide comb.
> 
> Nothing is perfect, I think that's one of the big lessons in beekeeiping.
> 
> With the wedge top I can always add foundation or ritecell later, that's why I didn't want to buy the special kelley foundationless frames.


Oh yes, I fully understand. The issue with foundationless is that there's no wall of foundation stopping them when the start curving or otherwise dinking around. That foundation wall would help a lot for the folks who get combs drawn the wrong way when running foundationless. 

Please let me know your thoughts once you throw a few of them in.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Jwcarlson, this is for you.

Brand new mann lake plastic frames drenched in sugar water

They do this probably 50% of the time.

Frames were spaced properly, with a captured swarm being fed 1:1 sugar water. They have almost no comb in the box and will barely take syrup. Only drawn one good frame in 3 weeks!!!.

On another hive, I pulled the top cover and found the most ridiculous amount of burr comb on top of the frames. should ha e taken a picture. Unlike my wood frames which have zero. and it's more the norm than the exception

I absolutely hate these frames. 

I swapped all the messed up frames for foundationless. I bet they start drawing them immediately


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I started beekeeping 45 years ago before plastic frames and foundation existed. I have always used vertical wired wax foundation. Wish I had a picture of the brand new deep combs I extracted today. One hive drew out and filled two deep supers full and perfectly after 3/7 and before the weather went bad in the middle of April. Thank all of you publishing your problems with plastic to keep me on the path I have been on. Plastic might be the downfall in many areas of the Flow hive combs also. One guy who saw me using wax called me an "old man" for doing so. One benefit of being an old man, knowing which old technology and which new technology to adapt or not adapt.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

odfrank said:


> I started beekeeping 45 years ago before plastic frames and foundation existed. I have always used vertical wired wax foundation. Wish I had a picture of the brand new deep combs I extracted today. One hive drew out and filled two deep supers full and perfectly after 3/7 and before the weather went bad in the middle of April. Thank all of you publishing your problems with plastic to keep me on the path I have been on. Plastic might be the downfall in many areas of the Flow hive combs also. One guy who saw me using wax called me an "old man" for doing so. One benefit of being an old man, knowing which old technology and which new technology to adapt or not adapt.


odfrank,
If you look through the forums, you can see quite a few reports from people who use these and say they work great. Michael Bush has thousands of these.

My experience with them is so bad I can't even comprehend the effort involved in getting thousands of these drawn, and those reports sound nothing at all like what i've been going through.

Last year I gave up trying to get these drawn right, just let them draw funky comb and scraped most of it into my cappings bucket.

One person noted that the bees won't draw them unless it is more than 70 degrees outside. I don't know if the reason for that is because the bees care about temperature, or because that means a flow is on, or what. But maybe that is the issue in our area.

Sometimes, especially in hot weather, they will draw a whole super correctly, in practically no time. But that happens maybe once a year.

Once the comb is drawn, they mostly work fine. Weirdly, they often raise brood inside the borders of the frame.

I'm going to cut out the foundation of a few plastic frames and try using it as starter strips for foundationless.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

foundationless = lots of drone brood


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Plastic foundation is difficult here because we have a long slow flow ebbing on and off most of the year comprised of numerous different plants rather than a fast hard flow from one source. These different plants are scattered over the bees forage range, not one kind of plant concentrated in the forage area. That is why feeding is usually required to draw plastic. Our best foundation drawing time is April and May, which this year was ruined by bad weather.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

I made my own frames from 2x4's. After was offered the opportunity to acquiring a Ferrell bee colony with out supplies it was pretty much build what I could and hope for the best. Trust me! My Ferrell Bee's indeed take to foundation-less frames better. I did drill holes in the sides and run wire for supports. For support I ran 2 wires for the Supers and 1 for the Mediums. I will not spend another dime on the bee keeping if I don't have to. I am so done after spending over $1000. I have 2 Ferrell Bee hives and a Nuc. I also have the purchased bee hive that was started as a Nuc. Luckily I have queens that are are fertile. Had my first brood hatch out about a week ago.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

shinbone said:


> foundationless = lots of drone brood


That amount of drone brood in a hive depends largely (although not entirely) on the number of drone cells built when the comb is initially drawn out. But during the early stages in the life-cycle of any colony, bees will only draw worker comb - so - use that opportunity to get new combs drawn.

LJ


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>foundationless = lots of drone brood

spring = lots of drone brood
foundationless = lots of drone comb


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >foundationless = lots of drone brood
> 
> spring = lots of drone brood
> foundationless = lots of drone comb


Not necessarily. If you don't believe me, perhaps you might believe Michael Palmer. Honey Show 'Sustainable Apiary' talk, 43 minutes onwards.
LJ


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Those who have eyes and have kept bees can see! Yes, inserting a foundationless frame during early spring buildup often results in fine worker comb. But on balance the bees draw far more foundationless drone comb than the Managed modern colony has or needs. I get all the drones I need raised in the interstice between boxes.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Tanksbees, thanks for the pictures. Mine have been a bit reluctant to build out the plastic. I am in the process of adding wax via foam roller and replacing the frames they haven't started on. Some colonies are chewing the wax off and leaving them straight plastic. Of course I can't seem to get ANY of my colonies to build squat for comb this year. The flow must be terrible or at least the flow where my hives are is terrible. It's a bit of a transition year for me cutting over from mostly TBHs to only Langstroth boxes... so things are a little bit discombobulated at the moment. It's depressing having cut over and assuming they'll jump right on the foundation... or at least the foundationless parts of the frames we cut them in to. That's with upside down paint cans on top of their inner covers too.

I might be taking this one as a learning year. Unless it was a swarm it didn't built squat for comb for me this year, and I only caught one swarm so...

Splitting and the nature of my top bar hives has left me with relatively small colonies, though. Not weak, just not very many bees. They are getting built back up now. I'll have to feed heavily this late summer and into fall, I think.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

odfrank said:


> I started beekeeping 45 years ago before plastic frames and foundation existed. I have always...... BLA BLA BLA....
> 
> One guy who saw me using wax called me an "old man" for doing so. One benefit of being an old man, knowing which old technology and which new technology to adapt or not adapt.


I hear there was a lot more to the "old man" description than just "old man"


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> If you don't believe me, perhaps you might believe Michael Palmer.

I didn't start beekeeping yesterday and it was Dr. Clarence Collison who confirmed my experience with his research.
Levin, C.G. and C.H. Collison. 1991. The production and distribution of drone comb and brood in honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies as affected by freedom in comb construction. BeeScience 1: 203-211.

If you don't believe me, perhaps you might believe Dr. Clarence Collison.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

One week later, nearly all of the foundationless frames are being drawn in the hives I added them to - all perfectly I might add. Bees hanging in sheets from the top bar. I was very careful to put them between drawn frames of brood comb, spaced properly. I didn't realize getting drawn comb was supposed to be this easy!

I would take photos, but I don't want to snap off any comb or disturb the process. I also didn't wire these frames, probably should have. Next time.

Since they draw from the center outward, I wonder if a vertical block of wood down the center of the frame would make more sense? Since they draw a semi-circle (is that what you call it?), I assume they would attach the sides a lot faster. Maybe i'll drill a hole in one and stick a chopstick top to bottom


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## Faith Apiaries (Apr 28, 2015)

tanksbees said:


> One week later, nearly all of the foundationless frames are being drawn in the hives I added them to - all perfectly I might add. Bees hanging in sheets from the top bar. I was very careful to put them between drawn frames of brood comb, spaced properly. I didn't realize getting drawn comb was supposed to be this easy!


Don't get too confident, they'll slow down on that soon enough. At least mine did. They draw brood comb really nicely because brood comb is only so deep...things will really get out of hand when they draw honey comb. We just got in from harvesting some really crazy honey comb that was causing issues. Too bad we have to eat all that fresh honey now. 



tanksbees said:


> I would take photos, but I don't want to snap off any comb or disturb the process. I also didn't wire these frames, probably should have. Next time.


Wire them. Run four wires horizontally and crimp them to make them tight. Even then the honey comb may collapse under its own weight. The wires make the brood comb really strong.



tanksbees said:


> Since they draw from the center outward, I wonder if a vertical block of wood down the center of the frame would make more sense? Since they draw a semi-circle (is that what you call it?), I assume they would attach the sides a lot faster. Maybe i'll drill a hole in one and stick a chopstick top to bottom


IMO, just use the wire, it's the easiest and most conventional solution.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Just a photo of some new foundationless comb - looks decent to me. I've been checking it every few days to make sure they don't do anything weird.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

tanksbees 
"I was going to get the kelley foundationless frames "

Be aware there have been some negative threads about the quality of Kelly's foundationless frames. Do your due diligence.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

ToeOfDog said:


> tanksbees
> "I was going to get the kelley foundationless frames "
> 
> Be aware there have been some negative threads about the quality of Kelly's foundationless frames. Do your due diligence.


Thanks for the heads up.

I already bought the wedge top frames from Kelley. Quality is adequate but could be better.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

I used Kelly frames for ten years then retired from beekeeping for 25 years. I have seen some recent Kelly frames. You may want to get some Mann Lake wedged, split bottoms and compare quality. I think you will see a difference.

Its a pain though shaving them down to 1.25" wide.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

What's the reason for shaving them down?


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

tanksbees said:


> What's the reason for shaving them down?


Long story short: It has been documented that natural beehives place their brood comb 1.25" on center. Present day commercial frames are manufactured to be 1.375" on center. This results in a larger cell which causes larger worker bees. They're supersized. An 1/8" doesn't seem like much to you but it is to a 10 mm insect. Natural cell sizing is also the reason many are running foundationless frames. Purchased foundation (5.4mm) has larger cell imprints than the natural brood cell size (4.7 to 4.9 mm in my state) resulting in supersizing. If I remember correctly a 4.7mm cell compared to a 5.4 or 5.5mm diameter cell results in a 150% supersize.

One thing I learned in life is there is a whole lots of things I don't understand about this world. But, if a bee went through million of years of evolution and does something a certain way there must be a good reason, its just that I don't understand it at this point. I'll trust evolution over the ego of man.

Warning, these well documented facts are highly controversial with some people. There will be three people on here shortly to tell you I'm crazy. PM me for a reading list.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What's the reason for shaving them down?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm


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