# Starting my first trap out from a tree



## Erik (May 1, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/user/abilenetxbeekeeping

Thoughts, comments?

Thanks,
Erik (near Abilene, TX)


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Nice job on the woodwork and trapout in general. You probably will not get the queen. A frame of brood would really help you out. It could encourage the nurse bees and queen to move out.


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## djei5 (Apr 24, 2011)

Use the cone, but in a piece of material that prevents all bees from returning to tree.
Put a frame of brood in your nuc to pacify those foragers.
After about six or eight weeks the you'll have two or three brood cycles and she may move out.
As long as bees are returning to the main hive you will never trap it out, and the queen will be happy to stay.
In effect, you are only putting a honey super on.
A trap out is a TRAP out.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

djei5... tsmullins... I am betting he will get the queen. Erik is using the Hogan Method and it was not designed to solely eliminate colonies, but was also developed to take multiple starts over multiple years from the same feral source. After implementation of the method, I found that you have an excellent chance of getting the queen in trees and tanks and small confined areas, and a lesser chance in a building or large colony area. 

Let me address each of your comments individually, which are geared more toward cone funnel method of trapping, and not the Hogan Method that he is using.

(1) This method does not use the cone for the first few days. In this method you want free movement of bees, through the trap to the outside. Upon installation of the trap, guard bees will move to the entrance, because, this is the only entrance to the outside. Cleaners move into the chamber to clean the comb and box.

(2) a frame of brood is added, not to pacify foragers, but, to draw out nurse bees, housekeepers, fanners, to tend the brood, and the queen. The introduction of unsealed brood is what draws out the queen as she comes into the trap looking for an intruder queen in her colony. Remember, this method has all entrances/exits sealed. It does not utilize a catcher box that foragers accumulate in as they leave the feral colony and cannot get back in, as is done in the cone funnel method.

(3) Within 12 to 24 hours of introduction of the unsealed brood you will have an explosion of bees into your trap. Common in a good tree colony you will have 3 to 10 pounds of bees. The beauty of this method is that you will have the right mix of bees (nurse bees, housekeepers, fanners, foragers) to remove the frames from the trap and start a new colony. In the cone funnel method you have predoninately field bees and any others that may have come out for rest or cleansing flights, and cannot get back in due to the cone funnel.

(4) Good advise. But, in this method, it is best to remove a major portion of the bees, then activate the cone funnel and finish eliminating the colony in the tree.

(5) In this method you are not putting a honey super on, but, rather you are getting the bees from the feral colony to use your trap as a brood chamber. Once the queen is in your traq, the funnel prevents her from returning to the tree, with no eggs, and no pollen and nectar being stored in the tree, the colony dwindles and all of the bees move into your trap. The feral source is eliminated. The queen and the other bees are content in your trap, which is now the brood chamber for the colony.

(6) A trap out is a trap out, but, this method is quite different and has a much, much, better chance of getting the queen if you want to get her. The real beauty of this method is to take multiple starts each year, (2-4 starts per year is common), and use the same tree year after year. Lots of farmers will let you trap out a colony or two each year, but do not want them eliminated. In effect you are reducing the number of bees in the feral colony and preventing swarming, plus, the added benefit of a feral queen, (if you want her)(if not, simply return her to the tunnel and she will go back to the feral colony) and then let the feral colony make themselves a new queen.

cchoganjr


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## djei5 (Apr 24, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> djei5... tsmullins... I am betting he will get the queen. Erik is using the Hogan Method and it was not designed to solely eliminate colonies, but was also developed to take multiple starts over multiple years from the same feral source. After implementation of the method, I found that you have an excellent chance of getting the queen in trees and tanks and small confined areas, and a lesser chance in a building or large colony area.
> 
> Let me address each of your comments individually, which are geared more toward cone funnel method of trapping, and not the Hogan Method that he is using.
> 
> ...


 Well, I'm not to old to learn, got a trap out in a tree next Wednesday, I believe I may give it a whirl!


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## Erik (May 1, 2012)

In this case the homeowner wants the hive removed from the tree. 

I do have brood frames available but just wanted to get the chamber/nuc installed and bees moving through it before I add a frame of brood. 

I'll update this thread as things progress. Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

djei5.. Have I sent you all the details on this method of trapping? If not, send me an e-mail [email protected] and I will send the instructions with photos of traps in progress.

cchoganjr


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Cleo is the master of trap-outs, but earlier this summer a new poster named Joseph joined the discussion with some additional tips. I combined both approaches in an attempt to maximize my chances of getting the queen out.

If you are having trouble getting the queen and really want to succeed this fall, you could try:
1. Add three frames of brood, all stages, with emerging capped brood on the center frame.
2. Activate the funnel for three days.
3. Remove the funnel for one day.
4. Check for new eggs on the central brood frame.
5. If no queen/eggs, return to step 2.

The strategy here is not just to entice the queen out with foreign brood, but to convince her that the primary brood chamber of the hive is in your trap box. The funnel shifts the balance of population in favor of your trap, while also forcing foragers to deposit nectar and pollen around the brood nest in the trap.

So far I am 1 for 1 with this method. Not much of a sample size; hoping to try a couple more trap-outs next year.

That is a pretty slick trap design you have. I like the slide-in tunnel closure with built-in funnel. If you end up trying the above method of closing the tunnel for a few days then opening it for the queen to move, you will need a funnel-closure built out of solid material rather than a queen excluder. 

Mark


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Luterra... I agree. I have read with interest the information posted on E-Bay by Joseph, and I tend to agree with him. I have not tried that, and had not tried it, because, my goal was rarely to get the queen, but, to take multiple starts from a tree or house or whatever, over a period of years. Primarily to increase hive count.

Over the past few years I have received numerous suggestions to improve the trapping method, and most of them have merit. I encourage everyone to experiment and see what works for you. Joseph's idea certainly has merit.

I reread your post and just noticed that you have also modified Joseph's method somewhat. Good ideas here. I may try that next Spring. I have a trap on small cedar tree about 5 miles from me, so it is close enough to work with it. I set up my trap in early-July and I got the queen the first day. I decided it was a little late in the year to take another start , so I left the transition and the support installed, and will start early next year and perhaps get 3 starts from it.

I checked the tree a couple of days ago and it appears to still be going strong. Apparently they were successful in making a new queen. First workers from that new queen should be emerging now. 

cchoganjr


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## Erik (May 1, 2012)

Well about a week after I got the nuc onto the tree I went back and gave them a frame of capped brood with some honey and bee bread on it. 

I noticed the bees were able to enter/exit the tree after chewing out the caulk. 

Another week later I went to check on them and there was a queen cell on the frame I'd given them. I have no idea how they did that unless there was either 1) an egg I missed, or 2) they moved an egg from the tree. 

That was a week ago. I thought I'd see if they hatch out a queen. On the last visit a week ago I removed the old wood with failed caulk seal and fit a 1 and 1/4" PVC fitting into the hole in the tree. It's actually a bushing fitting with a 3/4" pipe connector. 

I'm thinking I may just put a one-way cone on the tree and let most of the bees move into the nuc colony. 

Thoughts?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Erik... Even if you go with the cone funnel method, you will need to seal all the entrances/exits or they will simply go around the funnel.

Interesting statement about the egg for making a queen cell. Since you started this thread, maybe they will not say this is off topic. There has been a ton of discussion over the years about whether or not bees can move an egg to start a queen cell. In one report, the author stated that the colony had been queenless for over six weeks and produced the queen. Only explaination for where the egg came from, is that they stole one from colonies nearby. 

Anyone have any recent data on this subject.

cchoganjr


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## 88beehive (Feb 24, 2008)

Erik, I have the same cone and I used this on some screen wire but tight over the hole of the tree. I was thinking the bees could only come out and not back in so I need a longer cone or a long tube, correct? Also, I don't have any extra comb to put into the hive. Will a swarm catcher with bee pheromone work on a project like this, does anyone know? Should I make the cone longer to go into the swarm catcher? I have this in an area where a lot of people walk, about 20 to 30 ft. from a sidewalk. Will this be a problem because they are flying all over to where it cannot be barricaded off from everyone. Otherwise, the next step is to kill them.


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