# HOW MUCH Honey do you take from your hive?



## Blossom

:s*I have so much to learn about Bees but when I read about all this feeding the bees or they will die boggles my tiny brain. If the bees put the pollen and nectar in their hive so they can survive the following winter, Why do some take so much out that the bees could die of starvation if you don't give them sugar.?? The main thing to me about the bees is to have the "Pollination". If I get some extra honey out of them I will be tickled. It is a fact that sugar is like poison, (not good) to humans but honey is good... Maybe it is better for them to have their honey or they wouldn't be making it. Ever think that this change in their diet could be why they are susceptible to these dieseases? Their proper healthy diet is left with junk food.

This is a fact - Everything man sticks his nose into gets worse not better. It is greed. Just take a look around. These are just my thoughts and am not pointing the finger at any one person. :scratch:*


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## Black Creek

personally, it sounds like you are well on your way to trully enjoying beekeeping. 

sugar is cheaper than honey and people like to make a profit. In my limited experience, i think some years the bees would be best left with almost all of the honey they make. other years you could get more than 100lbs off of a hive and still not have to feed. it's all about location and rainfall and timing of the rains. 

then again, you could make a good judgment call on how much honey to leave them and have a bad winter where they ate it all up faster than previous years. then you'll be glad to know feeding them can save the day.


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## bejay

honey is often worth more to some than the sugar or hfcs they will feed back for winter stores wether you leave them enough or rob most of it is really up to the beekeeper but both may have to feed as some hives will be weaker than others due to various reasons that never allowed them to build up enough for winter.
dont really think feeding thats been done by beekeepers for so long would be making them more susceptible to diseases.


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## BigDaddyDS

Whether or not sugar (we're talking simple sucrose-type white table sugar here) is good or bad for bees is a matter of opinion. But, without getting too far off topic, and to answer the question posed in your subject line...

It's not so much how much honey you can TAKE from your hive, but how much honey you need to LEAVE. And there's no clear answer. There are a lot of factors at play. Some of them include: How harsh of a winter will you have? (Colder, typically, uses LESS honey! Warmer means more active bees.) How long will winter last? What type of honey did your bees make? (Different blooms have different nutritional values.) How many bees are you going into winter with? Etc...

Personally, I prefer to leave TOO much honey on in the fall, rather than not enough. (Here in Michigan, I leave approximately 70 pounds and typically have some left over. Other beekeepers around me winter with less and do just fine.) And even if you leave ample stores AND, say, a candy board or dry sugar, you'll still have the hive that'll starve out, even though the hives next door have surplus. You just have to do the best you can with the information at hand, and leave the rest to nature.

March is indeed a cruel month...

DS


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## Brent Bean

I agree with BigDaddDS. It’s not how much you take it’s how much you leave. I will extract honey for the last time in late August or early September depending on weather factors and precipitation. Which will determine what late season nectar and pollen will be available for winter build up. For my area I try and insure they will have at least 90 pounds of honey and plenty of pollen. I will only feed if weather conditions warrant my intervention.
I have taken as much as 250 pounds of surplus honey from a single hive but I will always leave what they need, to be healthy and stocked for winter.


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## MikeJ

Probably a hair brain thought but what prevents the beekeeper from just leaving a good amount (more than should ever be eaten) and then just collecting the left over in the spring after the bees have come out of the winter ok?

I don't think sugar is the root of all evil, but I think it is used to much by us humans at least. It isn't that something bad is put into the sugar it just all the minerals, etc. have been removed.

Mike


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## alpha6

Many points were hit here, but think of it in these terms. Honey is a survival food for the bees if you can feed pollen patties or heavy sugar syrup they will do well on it. They will convert 2:1 to honey if they go light in the fall. When harvesting honey you may expect the flow to continue, but it if dries up you want the bees to fill out their hive boxes. Towards the end of the flow we actually throw on hive boxes instead of supers on some hives for the bees to fill out. That way if a hive is light we just throw in a frame or two of honey to fill it out. And we feed up until it is too cold. In the spring feeding a 1:1 solution will stimulate the brood laying before the actual flow starts, so the bees are building up to work the flow better once it starts. These are reasons for feeding. Remember, bees are like livestock or any animal. The more you feed them natural or by another way the stronger and better they will do, especially when getting ready and making it through winter.


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## Ruben

Feeding the bees or they will die means if they happen to run out of honey. Beekeepers feeding bees is no different than farmers feeding other animals. I have heard they even mix chicken sh#! with some farm feeds. Both honey and sugar can create problems in humans if over consumed. Take care of your bees first and don't take too much honey from them, if you feel better to leave them a little more then do so. If you want pollenation then you could theave it all for them.


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## Blossom

*Ruben, I think you hit it right on the head. You mentioned how some feed waste, (chicken sh__ ), mixed in cattle/animal feed to expand the good food. Garbage to fill the animal up without giving them healthy nutritious food. Filling them full of hormones so they grow fast too. Making a 12 year old girl look like she is 17 for eatting these products. They say, "You are what you eat", so tell me is it going to make you healthy eatting chicken sh__ or could that be why so many folks are ill? Man is aultering everything we consume and soon you will be buying cloned chickens and such at the grocery store to feed your family. Wonder what that will do to us? (Of course they will tell you it is fine but it is NOT) Not normal or natural and neither can sugar be for the bees. :scratch:*


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## honeyshack

okay Blossom, quit yelling, turn them bold off.
Next Reuben and Blossom, do some research on the chicken crap....banned from Ruminent feed in Canada several years ago and soon on the way to the US. They are a little slow. Yes it was wrong, yes we shot ourseles in the foot in the name to save money. But there are some great producers out there for meat and food...I happen to be one of them.
Next, in Canada,feeding honey in the winter can kill a hive, especially if the honey is Canola. It is like poison to them. Something to do with the harsh winters and the way it crystlizes.


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## honeyshack

I smell something a foul


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## Blossom

Cool down...I don't mean every farmer does this but the gov. has permitted it. And I don't know that much about bees but I would rather my bees eat what is best for them and hopefully I can get a taste of their honey too. If we are going to continue to eat fruits and vegs. we need the bees to pollinate the plants and that is why I am getting some bees in April 2009. And if they need some help I will do everything I can to help them even give them some sugar if they need. I just can't see taking their food that is made for them and substituding it with sugar. Sure it may keep them alive but I was saying they may not do as well as they could if they had their own food.


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## honeyshack

Sorry that i was touchy. 
Each of us live in different areas and different climates. this is why sometimes things are just different


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## Ruben

Hey HoneyShack I really don't care if they are feeding farm animals chicken crap, I ain't eating it. If studies show it is good for farm animals great, if it shows it is bad they can stop using it. As for do animals like to eat crap? I would have to say they love it, I see them do it all the time. Cat will walk by litter box and drop a load off and the dumb dog will follow by and eat it up!

As for me, I feed my bees sugar when I feel they need it, I feed my children sugar also, I even eat a good amount my self along with chicken, pork, beef, fish and sea kittens as one group is now trying to label them. So if bees eats it as far as I am concerned it is working for me. Which all the above is why I won't be joining PETA any time soon!


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## tecumseh

blossom writes:
Ruben, I think you hit it right on the head. You mentioned how some feed waste, (chicken sh__ ), mixed in cattle/animal feed to expand the good food. Garbage to fill the animal up without giving them healthy nutritious food. 

tecumseh:
well quite evidently you do not have the sensibilities or the stomach of a ruminant. If you did then perhaps chicken s--- would appear more appealing. I have a little dog here who quite loves to roll and frolic in very dead animals... not for my taste but it does seem to please her greatly.

the real fly in the oitment here is that the number of variable to consider in the decision as to EXACTLY how much honey to remove from any hive on any year is quite exhaustive. not only is the variable list long some variable's value only become evident long after the honey is harvested. it would be good to quantify some OPTIMAL quantity of honey to remove and how much to leave... yet the unknowns and uncertainty are so large I suspect the answer is not as simple as some here migh suspect.


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## NDnewbeek

*by way of information only....*

Many organisms willingly and excitedly consume their own fecal matter (it is termed coprophagy and is most common among herbivores - like chickens). Plant material is exceedingly hard to digest - coprophagy is a means of 'recycling' that which has already been acquired and consumed in an attempt to extract more nutrients out of it. It is a natural activity for many animals.

Gorillas consume their own feces (often as they are in the process of evacuating it!), so do rabbits, rodents and deer (just to name a few). Carnivores often consume the feces of herbivores. Horse poop is LOADED with accessible, undigested nutrients - that is why your dog LOVES it!

This isn't to say that it is ok for food producers to utilize poop as primary feed. I merely intend to point out that, although something may be repugnant to us - that does not mean that it is inherently bad to ALL life.


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## Brent Bean

Since I don’t plan on feeding my bees anything that has chicken manure in it or on it, the rest is just interesting conversation. 
As far as feeding my bees sugar syrup I have found that if a good nectar flow is on they will ignore the syrup I give them, so it’s a waste of time and money to do so. After all they know what is most desirable for them. I do feed if we are in drought conditions late it the season but then they will suck it up as fast as I can get it on the hive. I will also feed for spring development or queen production, but once you start feeding for these reasons you need to keep doing so until natural food sources are available.
I have come to the conclusion that feeding is not always necessary for good colony management. But many new beekeepers have been instructed if your bees are going to survive you need to feed, myself included in that thinking when I was newer to the hobby. The same concept was considered when it came to medication with antibiotic’s. Treat in spring and fall whether they needed it or not. I don’t take antibiotic’s when I’m not sick so why should I give it to the bees if they are not sick?


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## honeyshack

here is the deal about chicken crap and cows.
Cows are herbiviors (sp). They eat plant matter. They do not eat their own fecal matter, the chickens love it. They do however enjoy a good slurp of the brown water in spring run off. Some of them would rather enjoy it over fresh that is just a few feet from them. Maybe it is laziness.

As to the chicken crap. They do not eat it willingly. The chicken crap and feathers are ground to a pulp, mixed with molasis, (which by they way they love) minerals and grain. It is all ground together, dried to a specific moisture content and fed as a protien lick supplement block. If they new what they were eating and had any sense they would have turned the nose up and walked away.

Bone meal is another matter. Nutritionist put it in as a way to increase the phosphorus cows truely need without thinking of the consequences. You might see a cow chewing on a stick or on an old bone fragment they found in a pasture, but the only reason for that is they are deficient in a mineral.

In Canada it is illegal to feed animal by products to ruminents. They have even made it impossible for a feed house to produce pork feed and cow feed in the same building. The risk we all face is just to great.
In the US a simillar ban is in the works.
We, my husband and I, take great care in feeding our cows what they need properly. We do not implant hormones, we feel, grass ahead and behind is the way to go. We take great care in feeding our bees as well. Bees in our cold winter climate can not digest honey. It gets too thick and hard. They would starve. If our winters were shorter maybe it would work. But here in our enviroment, not a possiblity.


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## Brent Bean

Honeyshack:

There are no feral honeybees in your area of Canada? 

I know your winters are much harsher and longer than mine, but they are able to consume honey within the cluster area no matter what the ambient temperature is. And 2:1 sugar syrup is still one part water which freezes as well. Since honey has many trace minerals that are required by honeybees, needed for optimum health and it is what they thrive on. Honey is better than sugar for people so I would assume it’s better for honeybees.


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## Michael Bush

I'm not sure if it's a rhetorical question or not. But I leave them enough for the winter or, if they don't have that much, all of it and feed them. Around here that's about a hundred pounds of honey.


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## Blossom

We have some convesation going here don't we? - Fact: "For every action there is a concequence whether good or bad "! Does everyone agree with that? - Fact - If an animal, say a dog has a proper diet that he needs he Will Not eat crap. He is seeking nurtients from other means to compensate for what his food is lacking. Dog food can be expensive so a lot of folks try to buy the cheaper brands, but mind you if you read labels most are not good for them. Dogs were not ment to eat corn as the main ingredient and that is usually on the top of the list. Horses will chew on the wood of the fence or stall because of a lack of nutients and so on. We would eat bark off a tree and roots if lost nthe forest for days on end with no food. It may not be what we want but it will keep us alive until we find the real food.

Brent said when there is a good flow of nectar the bees will not touch his sugar syrup so 'apparently' if they had the right kind of food for their bodily needs they would not want the sugary substitudes. Does that make sense? Some feed candy for bees so even if honey got cold or frozen they could lick it or what ever they had to.

Chickens do not eat crap. :no: Some animals do not digest all theseeds and grain they eat and it is released in their waste so chickens will scratch to find these but do not eat the waste. Hope everyone is having a great weekend!


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## Robee

Blossom said:


> :s* Maybe it is better for them to have their honey or they wouldn't be making it. Ever think that this change in their diet could be why they are susceptible to these dieseases? Their proper healthy diet is left with junk food. :scratch:*


Now they say that sugar is not junk food for bees like it is for us. However, I feel that if bees produce honey for themselves, then that is what they probably need. Perhaps honey has amino acids, nutrients, antibotics, etc. that are vital for great health. Maybe with that great health, they are resistant to diseases, mites and other enemys.
I am a first year beekeeper since May 2008 and I am more interested in healthy bees than I am in honey. When I have inspected my 2 hives, I have gotten to taste a little because of having to cut the comb loose to move my bars. (top bar hives) I have not removed any honey as I have no idea how much they would need for the winter. I did feed sugar syrup with esential oil this fall. Tea tree oil to be exact because I believe that it may have something in the substance to help them resist mites.
I don't think mites and diseases and going away so I am not going to try to eradicate them. My goal/desire is to have bees that can resist these things. Here's an example. You come in contact with people with coughs, runny noses, etc all the time. The common cold. You are in great health. Do you get that cold the way someone who is in bad health does? Probably not.
Perhaps I can get a little honey in the springtime and my bees will stay healthy.
Rob
By the way, just because I have TBHs, doesn't mean I would not have Langs. I am looking forward to having these hives in the future as well, but will probably go foundationless.


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## Blossom

:thumbsup: I feel like Robee, wanting my bees to be healthy as they can, that is why I am reading all I can right now and will be taking the beekeepers class in Feb. Tea tree is great but how much did you put in their feed? It is basically for extermal use. I was going to clean my hive with it. A natural anibiotic is Colloidal Silver. It is expensive but you can buy a machine that you can make your own. That's what I want. It is natural, no side effects and can wipe out virus etc out. I am taking it for myself right now. One or two drops in a gallon of water can make poor water drinkable. Here we go again with "Man" stepping in..... Up untl the 1930's this is what was used for antibiotics until Penicilin was developed, (a chemical) Man has always taken chemicals over natural ways]. The gov. and Pharmicuticals push pills and shots. $$$$$

Way back when people really ate with 'Silver Ware', now we use stainless steel forks. They put a silver dollar in a gallon of milk and it stayed fresh longer. I want to be as self sufficant as I can. Have my own chickens for eggs, have chickens for meat,getting 2 goats for milk, garden with Heirloom seeds. Even our creator said " Each seed will produce it's own kind". Not if man has anything to say about it. He went and altered the genes of seeds to make Hybrid.... because they are better than what GOD could make???? I'm telling you all this altering is killing us slowly and that is what they want so we are sick and take their drugs! That's the bottom line. Study up.


.


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## srd

PETA doesn't that mean People Eating Tasty Animals?
sid


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## tecumseh

blossom writes:
We have some convesation going here don't we? - Fact: "For every action there is a concequence whether good or bad "! Does everyone agree with that? 

tecumseh:
conversation is good. agreement??? I would suggest NO.

most time in the real world (outside a test tube) the consequence (effect) is both good and bad. there is more than a bit of randomness working it's little magic out there in them little boxes and within a lot of systems the final result of 'a' given action can look quite chaotic. 

as to how much to remove (come that time): take a little and leave more than you think the girls need. for most newbees over time you will acquire something of a feel for how much you can remove at 'that' location.

there are any number of good reason's to feed. I would somewhat disagree that a hive will not take syrup during a flow. there are a number of variable operating in regards to a hive uptaking syrup beyond just flow or no flow.

I am not sure what good purpose or reason someone might hold for allowing a perfectly good hive of bees to starve? sounds kind of cruel to me.


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## Brent Bean

Tecumseh writes: 
I am not sure what good purpose or reason someone might hold for allowing a perfectly good hive of bees to starve? sounds kind of cruel to me.

Unless I missed it I haven’t read that anyone would just allow there bees to starve? 
I don’t believe that someone should just blindly feed there bees when it isn’t necessary. Neither do I agree on medicating them with antibiotic’s for just in case reasons. If during my preparation for winter I will check and they need food or pollen and weather conditions indicate they will not have adequate time to forage for it, I will feed , I will combine weak hives with strong, and give amble time after my last honey extraction for them to properly build up for winter. I have too much time and money tied up just let them starve, and I agree this would be cruel.
As I have mentioned previously giving sugar syrup during a nectar flow will be ignored giving pollen patties during the same conditions will also be ignored. So the bees are telling me save the sugar for when we really need it, thanks anyway.


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## tecumseh

brent bean writes:
As I have mentioned previously giving sugar syrup during a nectar flow will be ignored giving pollen patties during the same conditions will also be ignored. So the bees are telling me save the sugar for when we really need it, thanks anyway.

tecumseh:
beyound the small detail brent and my way are about equal. if you are a real newbee taking too much can be a great temptation. I would definitely caution newbees to not to go there. for even though sugar is cheap relative to honey, the time and the effort is not, plus the likelyhood that mistep will lead to disaster is significant (the fewer the hives the more so).

I would suggest that a bottle feeder (boardman) placed in the right spot (directly above the brood nest) and with enough empty comb in the hive that bee will take some feed during a flow. they will tend to consume (or more likely store) this in the pm hours when they cannot fly. the same can be said for pollen patties with a high sugar content. there is of course no real reason to feed either under these circumstance beyond providing a bit of food insurance for hives or nucs that are extremely light if the weather should turn off the nectar flow for some period of time.


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## Blossom

:scratch: I'm not sure some understand where I am coming from. Let me put it another way because I also DO NOT want my bees to starve or do without. If it ever comes down to it I will feed what will keep them alive but is that the best?

Say someone locks you and your family in a warehouse. You can fill that place with everything you will need to survive for months. Looks like you have it made until that someone comes back later and takes a lot of your supplies for himself and when your supplies are getting low as maybe you sense you won't have enough to get thought this touch time you may even ration it to stretch it. Even if you don't know enough to ration this someone brings bark, roots grass etc and water. You MAY survive this hard time but it was NOT the correct nutrition your bodies needed thus you are weaker and unhealthy.

Bees did fine until "Man" stuck his nose into it. Man alters insects, plants, poisons stuff and spreads diseases all over the world. Once man found out there was something sweet in that hive they started helping themselves. "Oh, they will be fine I will give them sugar", you say. NOT THE SAME !

I am not trying to hurt anyones feeling or stir anyone up but this is how I feel. Bees main duty for mankind is to pollinate our plants so we have food and that is why I am getting some for my garden and suroundings. If there is some honey left for me, I will be tickled. Don't want to take it all so I can make money on my bees. My productive garden will bee enough to make me happy. :thumbsup:

.


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## Scrapfe

*"If it were not so I wouldn't say it." JC*



Blossom said:


> :s*I have…much to learn about Bees…Why do some take so much [honey] out that the bees could die…It is a fact that sugar is…poison… think that [sugar] in their diet could be why [bees] are susceptible to…dieseases? Their proper healthy diet is left [replaced] with junk food…
> This is a fact - Everything man sticks his nose into gets worse…*


Blossom, in nature there are many different degrees of livability (also known as the "carrying capacity") between environments. These environments’ carrying capacities differ dependent on the time of year and the local weather variations from year to year. If this were not so there would be no animals that had evolved the ability to hibernate like a bear, migrate like a duck, or to store food like a bee in order to survive. As by way of another example, although water, and I mean a lot of water, is required for alligators to survive, to much water at the wrong time of year will result in the loss of a whole year’s natural production of young gators. 

Sugar is fed to bees to get them over the rough times during the year, and to insure they have enough workers of the correct age, at the proper times of the year, to best take advantage of spring, summer, and fall’s flowers. A less than perfect growing season for anyone flower species in anyone season can result in the death of an entire bee colony or the death of all the bee colonies in an entire environment. That is why it is called beekeeping and not “honeymaking”. A more perfect term could be, “the person who endeavors to keep live bees.” 

Too much sugar (a carb) is bad for you. Too much tofu (manufactured using a deadly heavy metal) is bad for you. To much fat (a carb) is bad for you. Too much whole grain (a carb) is bad for you. If you doubt it just watch the TV ads screaming about the benefits of their no/low sugar, gas, fat, or carbohydrate, health food products. Therefore, would you advocate we exterminate seals to save the polar bears from their selves, since often the fat or blubber is the only seal tissue the white bear consumes?

It is also entirely possible for dogs or cats to live off the land. However, I don’t, and I doubt you would, advocate that no one feed their puppy dogs or kitty cats, but instead force our pets to fend for themselves in the wild as best they can! The only possible outcome being that the slowest or most unlucky starve or become a meal themselves. Horses eat hay, if it were not so I wouldn’t say so. However, they only readily consume hay during times of hunger when fresh “sweet” grass is in short supply. The same is true with bees and sugar syrup.


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## Scrapfe

*Tit for tat. Just ask Kurston!!*



Blossom said:


> *Ruben, I think you hit it right on the head. You mentioned how some feed waste, (chicken sh__ ), mixed in cattle/animal feed to expand the good food. Garbage to fill the animal up without giving them healthy nutritious food… so tell me is it going to make you healthy eating chicken sh__... soon you will be buying cloned chickens…Not normal or natural and neither can sugar be for the bees. :scratch:*


Feeding cattle chicken litter is not the same as feeding cows chicken manure. The best analogy I can come up with is that it is the same as vegetarians eating ORGANICALY produced vegetables. The chicken litter is mostly wood chips or cellulose, and as such is only a good source of nutrition for cows, termites and mushrooms. However, for either bovines, mushrooms, or carrot sticks to utilize wood chips and chicken manure as a food source, the litter must first undergo a composting process, just like the one used to convert chicken litter into fertilizer for organic farming. The cellulose and spilled chicken feed in used chicken litter, is combined with other crop byproducts and the Nitrogen in the chicken litter acts as a feed stock for beneficial bacteria that jump start the breakdown of the cellulose in the chicken litter just as happens in the stomachs of a bovine once they consume this re-cycled resource. The urea in the chicken manure is also an excellence natural food for the bacteria in a cows stomach that allows her to digest cellulose. So the cow derives a double or even a triple benefit. :thumbsup:

Having been around both chickens and cows as both a lively hood and as a hobby for over 60 years, I can assure you that nothing is better for, that nothing is as preferred by, or sought after by free range chickens than a good hot, sticky pile of fresh cow dung. Mother hens will drag her clutch of fuzzy baby chicks over twenty acres of cow pasture just so she and her young could be the first to wade hip deep into this steamy natural organic breakfast of champions. I don’t’ see why the cow should not enjoy the same benefits as the fuzzy baby chick.


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## bejay

Bees did fine until "Man" stuck his nose into it. Man alters insects said:


> dont really agree think you should do some research on beekeeping while man actually helped distribute bees throughout the world and if they hadnt of stuck there nose in it as you say, you might not of had bees today.
> if you dont want to feed sugar then dont, but many beekeepers will continue to do so.


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## tecumseh

scrap iron writes:
nice couple of post scrap iron...

a snip from scrap iron comments...
'The urea in the chicken manure is also an excellence natural food for the bacteria in a cows stomach that allows her to digest cellulose. So the cow derives a double or even a triple benefit.' 

tecumseh:
if my memory serves one pound of urea (actually urea in anything) converts to approximately 3.5 pound of protein in passing thru a cattle stomach. the same urea in my stomach or the stomach of a pig would either make both extremely sick but would more than likely kill both

numerious studys suggest that granulated table suger is actually a superior feed for bees than honey. it is not what is in the table sugar that matter so much as what is not in the table sugar that is the difference.


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## carbide

Blossom said:


> And I don't know that much about bees but I would rather my bees eat what is best for them ............. and that is why I am getting some bees in April 2009. And if they need some help I will do everything I can to help them even give them some sugar if they need. I just can't see taking their food that is made for them and substituding it with sugar. Sure it may keep them alive but I was saying they may not do as well as they could if they had their own food.


Since you don't even have any bees yet what makes you think that you know enough about them to proclaim that sugar is no good for them? Maybe a little more research on your part will lead you to some of the many studies that have shown that bees do quite well on sugar alone thank you. There are many beekeepers that take all of the honey in their hives and feed their bees sugar syrup to get them through the winter.

If you had thirty or so years of beekeeping experience and had taken all of the honey from half of your hives every year and gave them nothing but sugar to make it through the winter, and let the rest of your hives have all of their honey for the winter. If after doing this you could show by statistics that the bees that were given the sugar were suffering from this practice then maybe you would have some solid ground to stand on to support your statment that sugar is bad for bees. Until that time your negative statements about feeding sugar to bees are nothing but hogwash.

If you don't plan on feeding your bees sugar (when you actually have some) that's your personal perogative to do so. You don't however know what is best for your bees to eat. The fact is that bees make honey from the nectar that they gather from the available flowers around them. If there was a source available to them that supplied pure sugar they may just gather it instead.

Oh, BTW I don't feed my bees sugar simply because I don't raise any welfare bees. If they don't make it on their own, then they don't make it at all.


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## KQ6AR

Since you're on the subject.

I read an article recently that cow urine was being used in the hive to remedy something.

Also one of my beekeeping books might be bee keeping for dummies, or the backyard beekeeper states, - feeding sugar water is better than feeding honey to the hive. Maybe they are referring to purchased honey.


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## Blossom

Yes, you are right I don't have any bees yet that is why I am doing as much research as I can so I can keep my bees healthy not just alive. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know any kind of bodily waste is not good or the body would have consumed it. Have you ever wondered why, say for instance a cow would be born with 2 heads, or 5 legs. We had a calf born in NC with 2 heads. Something abnormal would cause this. AGAIN, let me repeat this - Chickens do NOT eat animal crap. They dig through it to find grains that were passed through.

People in India catch urine when a cow goes. They think the cow is holy. Third world countries do the most harmful things to themselves. Waste from animals that eat grain, grass etc is good for the soil but not human waste. When I need to clean my hives I will not look for a cow but use a natural disenfectant like tea tree and a little colloidal silver with water. Waste products cause bacteria and germs and give the poor bees something else to try to battle off. That is why they too need a healthy diet to have a strong immune system to stay strong. 

I don't know much about bees yet but I'm sure if they needed sugar than sugar is what they would be filling their hives with.

IS ANYBODY with me?? :scratch:


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## alpha6

Blossom,

I am with you to a point. Processed sugar is cooked. After the heating process, the sucrose crystals are then rinsed. In the rinsing, all the minerals are rinsed away. As we know, bees are most healthy when they have access to multiple nectar and pollen sources. By feeding refined sugar you are giving the bees sucrose which they need but it is missing many of the nutrients that they would otherwise get from other natural nectar sources. That being said, they can survive on sugar and survive well. Especially if the beek adds pollen substitutes. I like feeding patties instead of just sugar as in the mountain camp method. For multiple reasons but a few are these. I add EO's which have been shown to improve bee heath, I add protein which we know bees need, amino acids and also sugar. Bees cannot consume dry sugar, they must first turn it into a liquid and then lick it up. By being in pattie form it is more easily consumed by the bees because they do not have to provide as much moisture to consume the feed.

It's not the idea thing, but it sure beats having your bees starve to death.


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## dug_6238

Blossom said:


> IS ANYBODY with me?? :scratch:


No. I don't think so.

I'm sure your point is well intentioned. I'm not sure it's well informed though. 

I hope your endeavors in beekeeping are successful, and that it's a hobby you get as much enjoyment out of as we all have. Take time to form your opinions and remember that a portion of what you read has no basis in fact. Take the info that you gather here and build your knowledge on experience, not hearsay.

Most of all relax and enjoy yourself!


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## Scrapfe

*Saludo amigo.*



alpha6 said:


> Blossom, I am with you to a point. Processed sugar is cooked. After the heating process, the sucrose crystals are then rinsed…it sure beats having your bees starve to death.


I remember reading that the molasses that is removed from white sugar is poisonous to bees. I am not sure I understand everything about sugar refining, but I do remember limestone being used as a catalyst to purify the molasses, and like all good old boys of a certain age, I do remember community sorghum syrup mills operating into the early 1960s. Almost all products containing sucrose in a dry or concentrated form are cooked. If for no other reason than to dry it out to facilitate shipping and storage.

It is my understanding that brown sugar, molasses, and un-processed cane juice, are poisonous to honey bees. Until I have better information on the subject I do not think I want to feed any “natural” cane sugar products to bees. I believe I will do like alpha6, and stick to the kind with the harmful minerals washed away. Besides, these molasses by products make excellent feed additives for horses and cows, ethanol motor fuel, and darn good rum. Saludo, amigo!!! :applause:


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## Michael Bush

>IS ANYBODY with me?? 

"It has been proved that the worst foods for man are white flour and sugar. Therefore, if sugar is unfit for human food, how much more unfit is it for food for bees? Honey is the food God made for bees as bees produce more than they need it is evidently intended that we should have the surplus. Honey is rich in minerals and valuable enzymes which are totally lacking in sugar.

"I have proved to my satisfaction that the best and most vigorous queens cannot be reared when sugar is fed to the cell-building colony. Only honey should be fed if you wish to rear those prolific long-lived queens. To prevent robbing when feeding honey a feeder should be placed on the back of the cell-building colony the same as that on the breeder hive. 

"It is well known that improper diet makes one susceptible to disease. Now is it not reasonable to believe that extensive feeding of sugar to bees makes them more susceptible to American Foul Brood and other bee disease? It is known that American Foul Brood is more prevalent in the north than in the south. Why? Is it not because more sugar is fed to bees in the north while here in the south the bees can gather nectar most of the year which makes feeding sugar syrup unnecessary?"--Better Queens, Jay Smith 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Honey as Food for Man and Bees

Jay Smith is. 

I am.

But if you don't have honey to give them, sugar is the next best thing you can give them as the impurities in other things are not good for bees.


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## Black Creek

I dont know about the bees, but i sure do prefer honey over sugar !

must be something good in that stuff


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## waynesgarden

Blossom said:


> I don't know much about bees yet but I'm sure if they needed sugar than sugar is what they would be filling their hives with.
> 
> IS ANYBODY with me?? :scratch:


I haven't had bees in over 20 years so I am spending this winter learning all I didn't know back then and re-learning all I've forgotten. My bees will arrive in the spring and it's then I'll start re-gaining valuable experience.

Even though, like you, I've been doing a lot of reading this winter and I did have long-ago, real-life experience with bees, I'm not sure if I'm with you, Blossom. Sure as heck though, I do know I'm not qualified to be lecturing anyone here.

Good luck. May your bees conform to the world you envision.

Wayne


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## honeyshack

Scrapfe,
I am hoping i am misunderstanding you. You say it is alright for cows to consume chicken...


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## justin

oh this wandering thread.as though there is anything natural left in cows or chickens.unless human intervention is natural.the only point i can make is that without feeding in the spring and early summer a hive of bees here would probably die to yellowjackets,or if they survived summer they would probably not be able to make a surplus of honey,and if they did make a surplus of honey they would use it during the fall dearth and then if they did go into winter with food they would finally thaw out again in may and start all over.there are some feral hives here so it is not an impossible climate,but no one is taking honey from those ferals.so if i did not feed sugar i don't think i would get any honey.does that mean i should not keep bees?or that i should buy honey for them?


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## Scrapfe

*Shacked up with your honey!!! or food for though.*



honeyshack said:


> Scrapfe,
> I am hoping i am misunderstanding you. You say it is alright for cows to consume chicken...


You consume chicken..... when you eat organic veggies don't you? Both have been composted. Perhaps, like me, you are an epicure and prefer the delicate piquant flavor and faint Earthy aroma one gets from a well aged wheel barrel full of Chateau Rothschild 1999, thoroughbred horse manure spread on you salad greens. BTW, this was the source of the killer e-coli tainted green onions Taco Bell scored a few years ago. The chicken litter in cow food just has wholesome (to a cow) added ingredients, like hay, corn, alfalfa, soy cake, brewers yeast, crop residue.

You also eat human.... in organics including all the various chemicals every housewife, repair shop, and small factory decides they no longer need and flush or wash down the drain. Read the ingredients on the toilet bowl cleaner bottle, whet your appetite any? 

If you were a cow you could simply eat 50 pounds (DRY WEIGHT) of hay per day. It’s natural and for the most part organic. Read what tecunseh wrote: :applause: 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224876&page=4

On second though this is barely a subsistence diet for a cow. Better consume 80 pounds of DRY grass instead. You say you can't digest dead grass? Why not? A cow can. Oh, you say a cow has a different digestive system than us humans do. Isn't that what tecunseh and I said? 

BTW, this chicken litter cattle ration was developed by Auburn University, with a government grant to find green, sustainable, strategies for agricultural. This should give you a lot of faith that Government programs will be able to solve the energy crisis, LOL. Better stock up on sensible shoes, sucker. 

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. So now a prime food for bovines is tossed into the garbage can of political expediency. PETA & HSUS has driven yet another nail into the bloody palms of American agriculture. Your turn on this cross of political expediency will come, mine has already arrived. What will be banned first, HFCS, or cane sugar?


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## Ross

So much [email protected], so little time......

Bees weren't native to North America and the Indians did just fine before the white man brought them in, so don't tell me their only job here is to pollinate. Important, yes; so is the annual honey crop. For some of us that don't pollinate for a living, honey is the reason to keep bees. 

In this area, we have two distinct flows with a dearth in between. Don't take your spring honey by July and you won't have any by September, period, ever. Take almost all of it in July and the bees shutdown brood rearing (a good thing as there is nothing to collect) until fall rains. In the fall, if we get rain, we have a very strong flow on aster and golden rod or 2-3 months, so much so that we could harvest again in many years. In other years, you better start feeding in September. Beekeeping is farming and farming is always gambling. I'll take my spring honey and hope for fall flows. If the hives don't build up in the fall, I'll feed and get to another spring flow. Don't feed and you'll be buying bees in the spring when you should be making a honey crop. 

Why do bees store honey? The only reason is to preserve the bounty of nectar for the winter. They need carbs to make it through winter. If they had some other way to do it, they likely would, but that is what evolved, or what God provided depending on your viewpoint.


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## panthercreekbees

Not to push this subject farther than it already has gone, but I am amazed that no one has breached the subject in #23 of hybrid, and God made everything in its own image.

I believe that blossom is referring to gmo crops and not hybrids. A hybrid is a cross between two varieties of the same thing. Like crossing an Angus bull with a Hereford cow to get black white faced calves, where gmo's are crossing like a plant and a fish to obtain a genetic modification.

I would not be opposed to the hybrid at all, but I am right in there with blossom on the gmo end of it. 

Just my two cents.


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## Blossom

They say, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks",and I know most of you don't want to change your habits whether good or bad. I will do the best I can with my bees, try to leave them enough honey to survive. Should they have need of some feed, I will offer them something to fill that need. My point was they will be healthier eatting honey not that I would never give them anything else. Michael Bush had a smart post. Why not go back and read it.

E-coli, with taco bell was not from animal waste. Mexicans evacuate out in the fields while working. Human waste is nasty. Anyone with any experience with animals would also know horse manure is not good to put on your garden unless you are wanting a garden full of weeds. Horses are given the worse hay mostly weeds thus some seeds pass through not being digested and expelled. 
Whether you want to believe this or not but some scares are done on purpose to take your attention off a bigger issue at hand. If you think government studies or test do not nessesarily mean it was for the best. Look at the things they let pass onto the people. I have to laugh at the medicine comercials on tv. (May cause diareah, blurred vision, kidney failure, headache,stroke and thoughts of suicide) but it passed for us to take. No thank you! EVERYTHING boils down to money. $$$$$

Treat your bees with kindness! :applause:


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## Blossom

:lookout: Ross, you said if you don't take the honey out by July there won't be any by Sept ever. Why?


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## honeyshack

Scrapfe you said alot, I understood little...sorry.

Still the question remains "do you advocate animal byproducts in cattle feed?"

Having been a cattle producer for over a decade, and still a cattle producer,
having come through and still dealing with the ramification of BSE, one should realized that cows stomachs are not designed for animal protien matter. It is what got us in the situation we are in now

AND if my cows are fed properly, with adequate hay/grass, mineral and salt, they turn there nose up at chicken crap, feathers and fence posts...another story in itself.

And i hope you are using a hyperbole on the 50# and then 80# of dry hay matter. We live in northern Mantoba. And even in these brutal...-45*C temps, they only consume 36-39 pounds a day per cow. And that is having as much in front of them as they want during this nasty spell. And that is crap hay (unfortunatley due to weather) with a protien of 10.9 and a fibre and TDN that are close to the same.


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## tecumseh

blossom writes:
They say, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks",and I know most of you don't want to change your habits whether good or bad. I will do the best I can with my bees, try to leave them enough honey to survive. Should they have need of some feed, I will offer them something to fill that need. My point was they will be healthier eatting honey not that I would never give them anything else. Michael Bush had a smart post. Why not go back and read it.

tecumseh: 
quite evidently it ain't so easy to teach a new dogs any kind of trick.

in the perfect world one would need not medicate or feed bees anything. for most of us we are not so lucky to live in the perfect world.

I think you might agree that michael bush's bees, tecumseh bees and blossom's bees are not exactly in the same place and therefore the environment they encounter you would expect to be quite different? yes, no? all beekeeping is local... I would suggest if you try to do everything exactly as mr bush writes that he does you will walk away from bee keeping quite disappointed. what I am trying to suggest here blossom is that what michael does may work quite well in nebraska, but the same thing may not work at all in the carolinas or texas.

ps jay smith's comments were in regards to rearing top quality queens and had very little to do with maintaining hives with sugar syrup. all this comment suggest is the age old wisdom that environmental factors (such as QUALITY of feed) is as important (actually many would say more so) than is genetics in rearing queens. 

this question really says it all... a blossom snip.
'you said if you don't take the honey out by July there won't be any by Sept ever. Why?'

once again all beekeeping is extremely local. here this means that there is a summer dearth between june and september which may or may not be interrupted by a fall flow, if you get rainfall. on a good number of years rainfall will not come so if the bees consume all their surplus by october they will then expire predictable in early december due to starvation. 

furthermore (I don't know if ross would agree with this or not, but I definitely would be interested to know his thoughts on the situation) we have here in texas a punctutated flow (as opposed to a continuous flow as they may have in the northern tier states) so in most years you are very unlikely to rear any crop unless the bee are stimulated ahead of the flow with some form of feed.


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## Ruben

I come back a week later and this thread is still going, wow. It is simple to me, you leave however much honey that you think your bees will need in your area in a given winter. Now this is in no way an exact science. I don't think any of us take off more honey than the bees need to get through winter on purpose. They could make 500lbs and you take 1 lb for you and I guess in an extreme stars lined up senario that 1lb could be too much. So there is a choice, you take some or you don't.


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## Ross

> Ross, you said if you don't take the honey out by July there won't be any by Sept ever. Why?


Nothing blooms here in the heat of the summer unless you can find cotton that isn't aireal sprayed. The bees will sit and eat honey and make little bees if you leave it. If you take it, they will shutdown brood production until fall. Either way the honey is gone in September. If we have a fall flow, it runs from mid September until Thanksgiving, plenty of time to build up and store for winter.


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## alexlloyd

OK, after 2 hours of reading and being very educated, my question remains, how much do you leave. Further, can you take more and let them forage in the fall and return some if the fall flow is not good enough.


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## Lil Grain of Rice

Brent Bean said:


> Honeyshack:
> 
> There are no feral honeybees in your area of Canada?
> 
> I know your winters are much harsher and longer than mine, but they are able to consume honey within the cluster area no matter what the ambient temperature is. And 2:1 sugar syrup is still one part water which freezes as well. Since honey has many trace minerals that are required by honeybees, needed for optimum health and it is what they thrive on. Honey is better than sugar for people so I would assume it’s better for honeybees.


I don't know that Manitoban winters are that much worse than Michigan's  Colder, perhaps, but not by much. And Michigan will have the humidity to make it worse.

I'm only on page 2 so maybe someone mentions later on, but I know I've read that honey has an acidic pH that doesn't much allow for some pathogens to live in it, while stored sugar syrup has a more normal pH that does...


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## alpha6

alexlloyd said:


> OK, after 2 hours of reading and being very educated, my question remains, how much do you leave. Further, can you take more and let them forage in the fall and return some if the fall flow is not good enough.


If you can't figure it out with all the info provided I suggest you leave it all the first winter and see how much they consume. That will give you an idea for next year. Yes, you can take more and return frames of honey in the fall if they are light. This was talked about before. You can also feed them as discussed before. To be specific I would leave them about 160 lbs for your Canadian winters..that should be enough...if not feed in the spring.


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