# what shapes can bees recognize?



## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

I need a link to a source that discusses shapes that the honey bee can distinguish between. I know they can tell the difference between a circle and a square but not between a square and a diamond. 

I am using this information to paint the six entrances to my winter nuc bee house.


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## Terri (Apr 14, 2003)

They can also tell the difference between an aoutlined shape and a filled in shape.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Thanks Terri! I did find one source that had quite a bit of technical detail. I finally decided to use three colors yellow, blue, and a florescent yellowish green. I am hoping the florescent has some ultraviolet properties. The three top entrances are painted square and the bottoms ones are circles. 

I am thinking of marking some of the workers to monitor drifting.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2004)

The book by Gould and Gould, "The Honey Bee"
has entire chapter called "Flower Learning"
that contains a wealth of diagrams and
pratical information of what a bee can
distinguish based upon actual stuides 
where bees were "tested".

If you look for the paperback version
on http://www.abebooks.com , you will 
be able to buy the book for about $5.00.
If you haven't read it, you should.


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

Either "The hive and the honey bee" or "ABC and XYZ of beekeeping" I can't remember which has an entire section on this. It looks at which shapes they can recognize from each other. From what I remember the sizes don't matter as much as the shape. Like slashes, triangles, circles, and the number of them. Very interesting subject.


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

By the way... you may want to try your public library for those. mine has them


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

I had an interesting observation the other day with this bee house. The landing board is one continuous board but is painted the same color as the circle or the square, so the board is painted three different colors. The bees will sometimes hover an inch or two in front of the circle or square before landing. What is really interesting is they may walk down the landing board but will not cross into the other color zone. I have watch the landing board for 4 thirty minutes periods and have yet to see a bee cross the color line. They will go right up to the edge but will not cross. Each zone of the landing board is only eight inches long. Do they ever cross the line? I am sure they do, but I have never seen it.


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

Odd indeed. I now remember that it's circles and triangles that they supposedly can't tell the difference between. I wonder if you could paint the whole brood box in half with those colors to see how strongly they would abide by those actions.

At what point would they no longer be overtaken by that color. Probably wouldnt work inside the hive, but maybe reduce their landing area.

Maybe I'm cruel though.

I wonder if they could tell the difference between a 5 and 6 point star or something like that since it sort of revolves around recognizing flower shapes.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

I thought it was squares and triangles?

[This message has been edited by magnet-man (edited November 04, 2004).]


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

that's probably right


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

On the subject of bee vision in reference books the classic example shows two rows of figures.

The upper row contains:
a solid circle, 
a solid square, 
a solid triangle 
a single shape similar to a large slash /

The lower row shows:
a large x, 
a diamond outline shape, 
four thick vertical lines, 
a shape similar to the letter Y.

Bees reportedly can distinguish any figure in the upper row from any figure in the lower row and vice versa. They cannot, according to the books, distinguish between figures in the same row


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Hi there Magnet-man. This is from Bee-L archives. A couple of years ago there was a discussion about colour recognition in honey bees on Bee-L. 

From the chapter on vision in Ronald Ribands The Behaviour and Social
Life of Honeybees:

[Koch, P. (1934)] reported that he had kept 28 colonies in one apiary for 14 years, and that during this time the hives had always been painted six different colours. The average honey yields from the differently coloured hives had shown consistent differences, thus: dark blue 48 lb., black 42 lb., brown 40 lb., white 26 lb., light green 22 lb., pink 21 lb. This result indicates that bees had shown a preference for darker-coloured hives and had drifted to these from the others. In Europe, where colonies are usually kept close together in beehouses, the painting of hives is frequently advocated in order to help the bees to identify their own hive; Kochs results demonstrate that this system can have disadvantages.




[This message has been edited by Dick Allen (edited November 04, 2004).]


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Here is a link to some very good remarks about bee vision on Bee-L:
http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0301c&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=6386 

[This message has been edited by Dick Allen (edited November 05, 2004).]


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## jdb5949 (Oct 13, 2004)

Dick,
Where did Dr. Koch keep his apiary? If he was in a cold climate, the colors could affect the heating of the hive (through solar heating). This would also create the effects shown in his results. We know dark colors help the bees in cold climates.

------------------
James Burns


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Im out on a limb here, but I believe Koch was a German researcher. If not, Im sure someone in the know will correct me.

These are the colors Kochs bees consistently chose for 14 years: 

dark blue 
black 
brown 
white
light green 
pink 

According to your darker to lighter thinking shouldnt they have been:

black
dark blue
brown
light green
pink
white

It seems to me Ive seen elsewhere that bees have a definite preference for the color blue.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

German researcher=Frisch? Or something like that.Early on.

dickm


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Bees are really atracted to Ultra violet. The color we see is the color absorbed by the object. Black reflects the least. So blue would retain more UV than black as it absorbs the blue spectrum. Pink would reflect the most UV and be the brightest of the hive according to the bees.

color list you gave:
dark blue 
black 
brown 
white
light green 
pink 

So my order thinking using UV reflection would only change the white and green hive. Maybe his green reflected more UV than his white.


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## DanO (Jun 11, 2004)

Hillbillynursery, that post is wrong on so many points I'm not sure where to begin.

We know that bees see in the UV range but are they attracted to UV as a moth is attracted to a flame? (Actually, the misconception that moths are attracted to light has been disproved but I'll save that for another time.) 

The color we see is from the light *not* absorbed by an object.

On the next point; The brightness of an object in UV is pretty much independent of the color that we see the object. Our perception of color as best depicted by the color wheel with the three primary colors (red green blue) and all the mixed colors in between does not completely correspond with the color spectrum as depicted by the rainbow (infra-red, red, orange, yellow, green, blue. violet, ultra-violet). You won't find purple (a mix of red and blue) in the rainbow and you won't find UV in the color wheel.

You would think that black and white would always be black and white but the brightness could be reversed in UV. Are you are old enough to remember the adds for laundry detergent that makes your clothes "whiter than white!"? The Borax in the detergent absorbs UV light and retransmits it in the visible spectrum. So your white bee suit if washed with borax would look dark and menacing to a bee.









[This message has been edited by DanO (edited November 08, 2004).]


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Pink would reflect the most UV and be the brightest of the hive according to the bees.

If that is the case, it seems to me, bees would be attracted more to pink. Instead it was their least chosen color. 

To be honest, you lost me in those remarks about one color reflecting more UV and another color retaining it. Ultraviolet is simply a color. Isnt it well known that we dont see UV, and bees dont see red?

>you won't find UV in the color wheel.

Well, not in the color wheel for humans, but it is in the color wheel for bees. 

Weve been told to wear light colored clothing around bees. Dark clothing supposedly makes them sting more. Well, I dont know. I havent noticed any difference. I guess this was determined by hanging a black and a white fuzzy ball in front of a hive and then upsetting the hive. More bees stung the black fuzzy ball than the white. Anyway, if you look at the order of color that bees prefer, according to Koch, pink is at the bottom. This information may be useful for you entrepreneurs out there. Think about it. Pink bee suits! Just dont paint your hives pink if you want any honey.


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## jdb5949 (Oct 13, 2004)

Hillbillynursey's comments triggered a memory. So I researched and found a reference in "The Social Behavior of the Bees" by Charles D. Michener. He said, "Any color discriminated by bees can be made by mixtures of the three wavelenghts: green (530), blue (430), and ultraviolet (340)."
Basically, the color of Koch's hives are not the colors that the bees see. For example, they don't see red. Do they see pink? The color wheel for bees (per von Frisch) says that their white is a combination of any two colors opposite to each other on the wheel. Everything on the wheel for bees is opposite to a color in the ultraviolet that we cannot see. So white, light green, and pink are different colors for them.


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## jalal (Sep 2, 2004)

http://cvs.anu.edu.au/andy/beye/beyehome.html


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2004)

> Koch's hives are not the colors that the bees see. 
> For example, they don't see red. 

Hold on there...

Bees DO see "red", but they cannot tell it from black.
The range of bee vision is simply shifted upwards from
that of humans, but still results in a steady progression
of shades in a range, a "rainbow" of different colors.

It makes me laugh to see people buy the red bee suits,
thinking that they are less visible to bees. What the
bees see is something large and "black", contrasting
with the surroundings, the sky, and everything else.
What ELSE is large and "black" to a bee? A bear, for 
one thing.

> Do they see pink? 

Pink is a mixture of red and white, so bees CAN see
pink, but they would see it as "off-white".

> The color wheel for bees (per von Frisch) says that their 
> white is a combination of any two colors opposite to each 
> other on the wheel....

It is useless to speak of what bees perceive. All we can
do is test what bees can distinguish and differentiate
between. All we can say is that bees can tell one thing 
from another. 

But it is easy to figure out what bees can detect from their 
hardware. Worker bees come equipped with about 4500 facets 
in each eye (drones have about 7500, 'cause they were born
to look for queens) and each facet has a set of 9 sensors. Two 
react to blue light, two to green, two to ultraviolet, and the 
other two vary among (green/blue/ultraviolet) with the location 
on the eye. The ninth sensor is for polarized ultraviolet light, 
but these special sensors do not contribute to "vision", but 
instead, directly feed into "navigation", as polarized UV is how 
the bees figure out where they are from the UV patterns in the sky.

Many flowers have a "bulls-eye" that can bee seen by humans under 
UV light but not under normal light. The markings point to the
nectar and pollen at the center of the flowers. But the bees
don't see what we see when we put the flower under UV light, they
see both the "normal colors" AND the UV component, but would
"see" red as "black".

Bees likely perceive the world very differently from the way we can,
no matter what tricks we use. The biggest difference is that they 
integrate the individual "pictures" from thousands of "eyes" just as 
we integrate the individual pictures from two eyes.

jim


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Bees DO see "red"

Nope. And most everyone knows that. Bees DO NOT see red. Plain and simple. Most of us realize bees can see an object painted in red. 
That isnt a new and startling revelation. Whether they perceive it as black, gray or another color is as yet unknown. Or has it now been determined what shade they perceive it to be? Thats the same as saying we can see ultraviolet because we see flowers which do have ultraviolet color.

Isnt red lighting used in indoor wintering facilities? And why is that so?

And who, pray tell, sells red beekeeping suits?


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

Keep in mind that we aren't speaking of true colors. Any slight variation in color or source light would reflect light of different wavelengths.(we are not dealing with an ideal blackbody)

I think you would need flat red on a textureless surface to keep the reflected light of other wavelengths supressed.

We would a need monochromatic in phase light source to test that(not the sun)with certainty.

Considering magnet man's other post concerning black beekeepers, isn't a real good flat black going to appear as the absence of light the same that red would in either case of the discussion here.

Just like how we can't see uv light in the dark, red or black (as long as it's really true), would be equivalent. This is the likely case since black as we see it is the absence of light. So, black or "invisible" it would still appear as black assuming we can make these relations to the bee mind.

If the bees did detect red as a different color, then it would probably be the same as the longest wavelength that the bee's eye can detect (orange/yellow) (creating a similar voltage) and therefore they would be observed to behave as "seeing" the light with the same reaction. This would hold true even if I am wrong (about yellow/orange) and they observe it as any other color, but it seems that a different reaction has been observed and therefore this is probably not the case.

One last thought: Has anyone tried using the UV absorbant detergent for their bee suits that hunters use with their cammo? (I don't own a bee suit and can't try)

One more last thought: jfischer is right -- any of such relations between the mind of a human and a bee are bound to be flawed if not complete garbage, but the above is what I have reasoned from what has been discussed here. That black or "invisible" is likely the case and the difference is inconsequental.

[This message has been edited by Ribster (edited November 11, 2004).]


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2004)

>>Bees DO see "red"

> Nope. And most everyone knows that. 

This is an incorrect statement.

Items that are red are NOT somehow invisible to bees. 

> Bees DO NOT see red. Plain and simple. 

Given a red object on a white background, 
and a black object on a white background
bees will be unable to distinguish the red 
object from the black one, but certainly 
CAN see both objects. Therefore they CAN
see "red". They see it as "black".

The first experiments in this area where done
by Von Frish, but these days, such experiments
are fodder for undergraduates. If you'd like
to learn more about this, I can likely find a few citations.

> Most of us realize bees can see an object painted in red.

Then they CAN see red things, can't they?

Why then make the claim made that bees CAN'T see red?
Are mere word games being played, or is there a more basic
misunderstanding of how vision works, colors are absorbed
or reflected, and "color perception" results?

> Whether they perceive it as black, gray or another color is as 
> yet unknown. 

Sorry, but how bees perceive red is very well known if one bothers
to read the published research that has been done over and over again. 
The ultimate test is one that involves "signs" over entrances into small 
chambers that contain food rewards. If bees can learn to associate 
one color with food, they prove to us that they CAN tell one color
from another. If they cannot associate, then they cannot
distinguish one color from the other. 

> Or has it now been determined what shade they perceive it to be? 

We can only test the bees to find out if they can perceive a
difference. Obviously we have no idea what a bee thinks about
"blue" versus "yellow". We only know that they can tell blue
from yellow, and red from either.

Another way of looking at the problem is to examine the sensors
that bees have, and realize that, from the point of view of a
bee, a red item is not reflecting any colors that would make their
visual sensors react, so it would create the same visual stimulus 
as a black object, which would also "absorb all colors", and thereby
also not make any sensors react.

A third way of looking at the problem is to realize that roses are RED!!!
Clearly bees visit red roses, so they can see them.

> Isnt red lighting used in indoor wintering facilities? 

Again, red lights would appear "black" to bees, nothing more.

> And who, pray tell, sells red beekeeping suits?

I don't know, but I've seen people wearing red, orange,
and even grey. I realize that being up in Alaska, it
would be expensive to attend any of the larger gatherings
where such sights can be seen.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Given a red object on a white background, and a black object on a white background bees will be unable to distinguish the red object from the black one, but certainly CAN see both objects. Therefore they CAN see "red". They see it as "black".

Allow me to quote what you said further on: Are mere word games being played... 
Ahh, Jim once again youve got the old finger pointed havent you? Where are the others pointing? 

>Then they CAN see red things, can't they?
Yes, they most certainly CAN see red things. 
Once again isnt that the same as saying we see ultraviolet things, too, because we see flowers which do have ultraviolet color? 
No one is claiming objects painted red are invisible to bees, although admittedly, I did use the actual words bees cant see red.








I thought with your background you would have enough common sense to realize I wasnt claiming red renders everything invisible to bees. I guess I overestimated you....









>A third way of looking at the problem is to realize that roses are RED!!!
Well some are white. Besides, when bees see roses that are RED!!! arent they are seeing the ultraviolet colors. 

>The first experiments in this area where done by von Frish
Many of us are aware of von Frisch and many of us have read him.









>... but I've seen people wearing red, orange, and even grey.

Well, yes in fact I wear navy blue coveralls, if the bees are really obnoxious. Why navy blue? Because I dont own a white bee suit. The coveralls are just what I have available. Now, do you truly think people believe they are cloaking themselves in invisibility by wearing red coveralls?


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