# new packages in foundationless frames



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Been done by many bees for eons. Very rarely will it not be straight, even then you can straighten comb out. The bees will cover the queen cage just fine. just hang the cage over a center frame by the strap that is on it and slide the frames together. Installing is fun.

Nice to have you join.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks Saltybee. What about when I add my first super (which will also be foundationless frames although medium size)? Should I provide them with one frame of foundation that they can use as a ladder or will they fly/crawl to the top bar of the frame like they'll do in the brood box?


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## Mr_Clean (Aug 31, 2013)

If you are going to go foundationless, you might consider having all mediums (instead of deeps), so that frames can be interchangeable.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!

If you have not yet acquired those 8 frame deeps, consider that you can _simplify _frame management by using medium frames in all boxes. More here:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm
There are some that believe the traditional deep/medium configuration is best, and I'm not telling you to do one way or the other. But you may wish to _consider _it, _before _buying boxes. :lookout:


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I did deeps,mediums, shallows. If I did it over it would be mediums or shallows. When it is time to go to the 2nd body (and that varies greatly,@ 80% full ) there are tricks that help. Raising 2 frames up with or without an empty in the middle works well. You can do that with deeps and mediums but one size is easier.
Now is the time to read up and plan, but you already know that.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

OK. I'm convinced to go all mediums. :thumbsup:


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

OK, I actually did exactly what you are thinking of doing when I started with my first package 5 years ago. First of all if you do install them in a completely foundationless hive then you need to directly release the queen. If you hang the cage in there they will start building comb on the cage and you will get off to a rather bad start. I know because that is exactly what I did. You can see pictures of the resultant mess that I had to cut out and tie in here.

But I would recommend that you start out with at least a couple of frames of foundation - then you can hang the queen cage between them and you will get off to a nice straight start. A straight start REALLY helps. If you really want to be foundationless you can just retire the two frames of foundation once you get rolling. If you are wanting to try small/natural cell then you can just get a couple of Mann Lake PF-120s (if you use mediums) or PF 100 (deeps) to start with. Just so you know - your package bees will *not* build small cell comb just because you go foundationless.

Good luck.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

Wow David. Great pictures. I'll head over to bushbees to read Michael Bush’s advice on foundationless queen release. But can I directly release the queen by opening her cage and set it on the bottom and let her come out slowly at her own pace? Or just hold her with 2 frames of foundation like you mentioned?
*nevermind. I just read Michael B's advice. I think I'll just release her with the packages and skip holding the cage with foundation.


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## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

But I would recommend that you start out with at least a couple of frames of foundation - then you can hang the queen cage between them and you will get off to a nice straight start. A straight start REALLY helps. 

I fully agree with this recommendation, having begun my beekeeping with 2 Top Bar hives. I had to, and did, work diligently to "help", "encourage", the girls to build straight comb and still cross combing occurred. As a newbee it was really stressful for me. I am taking my Langs foundation-less this spring and plan on mixing foundationless with foundation to help them get off to a good start. Fixing cross combing gets so messy.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks David. Always have direct released, did not know of the problem.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

JustinH said:


> I'm a newbee and I'm going to start two colonies this spring. I have a question about installing a package in a box (8 frame deep) with foundationless frames only. All of the frames will have a beveled top bar as a comb guide. There will be no frames with any drawn comb to guide them build straight down. Will this work? Also, where would I put the little box with the queen since there will be no foundation for the bees to climb up to let the queen out?


As long as your hive is level, I would expect minimal to no problems. Even with foundation, there is a chance they will draw comb as they want. To be safe, just keep an eye out until they get a few frames drawn. Check once a week or so. If you do use deeps, you probably want to wire them. Just in case they draw comb from the bottom up. Then when you pick the frame up, the comb might fall over. Happened to me once, the bees were not happy about it. With medium frames this has not been an issue.

As for the queen release, I have never bought a package. All my hives are from splits or swarms. The few packages I helped friends with, we did a direct release. If you wanted to, simply lay the cage at the bottom, across two frames. 

HTH,
Shane


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

good advice here... When i drop in new super or start a new colony I do exactly as suggested... I use the pf 120's with 4.9 mm cells so as not to force them to build large cell and then let them build what they want in the empty frames.. typically they build in the empty frames first which allows you to remove the plastic and drop in empty frames in their place.. and you can then use the plastic in the super or another hive when you start it to help guide them there... I place three pf 120's per ten frame box. two empty a 120, two empty, a 120, two empties, a 120, and a single empty.. while it is not foolproof, it does help.. Drawn comb would make it even better if you can find any. (that you trust is afb/chemical free)

I also run mediums.. a good solid frame like you spoke of works really well, even to extract from. A little iffy at first when the wax is new.. if you have problems you can do several things to help.. use monofiliment to make a single cross wire.. use WIRE to make a cross wire.. or, I have actually just used the plastic pins through the sides of the frame.. I have found they add all the support needed.. once the wax hardens a bit its usually no problem...
Sometimes they are reluctant to attach the wax to the sides or bottom, or both... rubbing wax on the sides and bottom helps encourage them to attach it.. Each time you inspect, pull one frame, move all the super frames over one, and drop that frame in on the other side.. the advice i was given was that the frames nearer the center are "primary" whatever that means.. but that the bees are more likely to fill in the edges.. between those to pieces of advice most of my super combs are well attached and extract well. As far as the brood frames.. i really dont care if they attach all the way around. They often leave holes.. for communication? Travel? Warmth when wintering? Its THEIR brood so I let them make the choice.
Another advantage to mediums I have found... After a couple of years you want to begin "renewing" your comb.. Each spring, early, you will find the bees near the top of the third medium.. I usually pull the bottom box, set the second box with the first still on it on the bottom board.. you can then add a new box/frames, or quickly cut the wax from your foundation less frames and drop them back on top for them to draw out again.. Frames that have had the wax cut out are an advantage, as already stated.. they start it right and draw it well.. Doing this each spring means that you have a three year rotation on your wax.. provided that you run three medium supers as brood chambers...
I wish i had started with mediums.. would have saved converting... I also wish i would have started foundation less.. though many argue against it for a new beek.. IT DOES make the learning curve a bit steeper, but will save the regression and conversions later.. IF, thats the way you think you want to go eventually. k, enough rambling from me....


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

tsmullins said:


> As long as your hive is level,


This is extremely important if you plan to use all foundationless frames. Front to back is not an issue, but your best results will be seen if the hive is perfectly level from side to side. If the hive happens to be leaning to the right the bees might not follow the centerline of the frame. They will build comb down from the top bar in the direction that gravity tells them is vertical, which could be into the frame next to it.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

David LaFerney said:


> First of all if you do install them in a completely foundationless hive then you need to directly release the queen.


At the risk of providing conflicting recommendations, a direct release into a new hive (no bee smell) with only foundationless frames (I believe) increases the risk of initial absconding. If the bees are not agreeable with the provided conditions and their queen is free to fly, then they may decide to leave. There were several reports of this exact thing happening last spring. I always urge "new beekeepers" to be conservative with the release of package queens. I admit that in some circumstances I will direct release package queens, but I stack the deck in my favor, by providing some drawn comb and placing them in a location that is very bee-friendly. I contend that the amount of messed up comb they may draw out in a few days is inconsequential to the long term survival of the colony.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

Astrobee, I think you're right and I've decided not to direct release the queen. I've just ordered some medium plastic foundation frames that I'll hang the queen in between. Since I'll have 8 frame hives, should I place the foundation frames in slots 4 and 5 so the queen will be in the exact middle of the hive body? Because all the other frames will be foundationless.

SS1, you're ramblings were informative. Thx

And I'll be exact on leveling the hives. My apiary will be in my backyard so my plan is to lay down lots of weed fabric in a certain square foot. Then put flat pavers down where the hive stand legs will go, then spread crushed limestone 4" deep everywhere around the pavers. I think that will look good plus I hear the rock will help with small hive beetle larva.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Yes, slots 4 &5 would be best. The key when starting with brand new equipment is to get them to start storing resources before their queen is free. If the weather is decent, a few of days is usually sufficient. You want to get the colony built up nicely as early as possible and you'll have fewer issues later. SHB can be a big problem with small colonies, so get your colony built-up before SHB kick in about mid-summer. I've found that full sun is very helpful against SHB, so you may want to add that to your list of considerations for hive location. Just to be clear, full sun means direct exposure all day.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A couple of drops of lemongrass essential oil resolved any absconding issues. Part of the problem, though, is that a lot of the package queens I've seen in recent years, I suspect are virgins and the bees will often leave her behind and move into a queenright hive instead... with her in the cage or not.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

My take on foundationless in video form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38SPvuWvVkc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUUJpugtC8DATt5CampP4RtA


As for the queen cage, I've had no issues hanging it on an empty frame. I actually snug it up under the topbar with a zip tie. If you don't leave your hive for 2 weeks you'll probably not have too big of a mess. Mine generally had some combs started to the side of the queen cage which aren't a problem anything else I just cut off.

People act like problems don't happen with foundation and that's completely wrong. I help many people with their hives and get to see all kinds of messes from foundation. Frames that look like a tunnel system because they drew wonky comb on the foundation, frames where the bees didn't put the comb on the foundation at all. Everything can have challenges, but I'll take the cost lowering of foundationless and clean wax to boot.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

rweakley said:


> My take on foundationless in video form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38SPvuWvVkc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUUJpugtC8DATt5CampP4RtA
> 
> 
> As for the queen cage, I've had no issues hanging it on an empty frame. I actually snug it up under the topbar with a zip tie. If you don't leave your hive for 2 weeks you'll probably not have too big of a mess. Mine generally had some combs started to the side of the queen cage which aren't a problem anything else I just cut off.
> ...




I have to agree. I freely admit things can get messy starting from scratch with new hives and completely empty foundationless frames.. but those who HAVE hives often have some drawn frames. Especially Uncapped and cleaned frames from their supers from last year.. they are invaluable, and if USED in a new hive make any resulting mess LESS nasty than what the bees can do to empty foundation.. Adding a piece of plastic here and there between the frames helps clue them in tot he direction they should be building.. As you said, it is EXACTLY as stated.. so long as you dont walk away and leave them for two, three or more weeks when they FIRST start the problems are not an issue to fix.
Bees left to their own desires will build comb at an angle. i have seen it rafters, Old Combine tires, Old tool boxes, old CAR trunks, Old machinery and even old water heaters.. so you DO need to check!


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> A couple of drops of lemongrass essential oil resolved any absconding issues. Part of the problem, though, is that a lot of the package queens I've seen in recent years, I suspect are virgins and the bees will often leave her behind and move into a queenright hive instead... with her in the cage or not.


Michael I do have lemongrass essential oils and I'm willing to try this because I'm inclined to believe everything you say, but using powerful essential oils in such a tiny square foot (one medium super in this case) seems like it would totally mask or interfere with the queens pheromones. When installing a package, I'm trying to get everyone familiar with the queens' scents after all. I know when I use EO's in my homemade green household cleaners, they stink up my whole house (not a bad thing). I can only imagine what 2 drops will do inside a little super. And where do you place the drops? The bottom board? The sides of the super? How soon do you add the EO before introducing the package?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The point is to only use a small amount. The lemongrass oil simulates the nasonov pheromone. A swarm or package will be making this on their own, but having some that is anchored to the box tends to keep them in the box. If you have some way to measure drops, two is fine. Four is fine. More is too much in my opinion. I just dip a q-tip in the oil and drop it in the hive and it works pretty well. Some queen phermone is always helpful in anchoring or catching a swarm, and is nice to have on hand. You can make your own over time with retired queens in alcohol, but in the meantime you can buy PseudoQueen and use 1/4 of one of the little tubes as swarm lure or to anchor a package in place.

You can put all of this in just before you put in the package or you can put it in days before. It really doesn't matter that much.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

Thank you


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

I tried foundationless last year. I glued popsicle sticks onto the top frame bars. I also alternated some near the middle of the box, with foundationless then foundation for the middle 5 frames. The frames toward the outside are not so important. What is most important is to keep spacing to no more than 1-3/8 inch (in the main chamber I shaved one side of the frames, to get 1-1/4 spacing: the foundationless combs were nice and straight). We made a mistake in the first super of widening the spacing to 1-1/2 inch, AND did not have any frames with foundation. The girls made so much cross combs between frames as to be practically irreparable.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>I also alternated some near the middle of the box, with foundationless then foundation for the middle 5 frames. 
>The girls made so much cross combs between frames as to be practically irreparable.

Bees will not work foundation if they have a choose, they will fill in all the foundationless and free space first then the will work foundation. And same for plastic, they will work every think else before they work plastic.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

FlowerPlanter said:


> >I also alternated some near the middle of the box, with foundationless then foundation for the middle 5 frames.
> >The girls made so much cross combs between frames as to be practically irreparable.
> 
> Bees will not work foundation if they have a choose, they will fill in all the foundationless and free space first then the will work foundation. And same for plastic, they will work every think else before they work plastic.


I may have mis-spoken. We very well may have had foundationless alternated with either drawn empty comb, or with drawn frames which we had stored in the freezer over the previous winter. Sorry for the confusion.

Phil


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## Redwards (Dec 7, 2013)

I am a newbe too and was planning to use foundationless mediums. Does anyone have an opinion on using a couple of perco drone comb frames (cut down to medium size) in the box to help them start out or should I add those later.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I would wager that the bees in a package will draw out the drone comb as worker cells because they will know the last thing they need initially would be drone cells. That would give them somewhere to start a comb going in the right direction and you could scrape the cells off and let them do it over later I suppose.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Bees are somewhat variable in what they do in terms of drawing comb. You always run the risk in putting a mixed crowd of bees with a foreign queen (as this is what you get with a package) into a box of empty frames. Most times, I think, they will use the frames, but sometimes you get bees that won't. Happens with swarms too, sometimes they just will NOT build flat comb and you have to fix it, and even then they won't make flat comb.

As far as drawing out empty frames over foundation, I had to extract four frames this year to fix the mess the bees made when they failed to finish drawing the "drone frames" I put in as foundationless last year. They drew partial frames of drone comb, then drew out the foundation on either side to fill the empty space. Big mess.

Each colony is going to be different, so if you can look in every week or so (fine for beginners, not so fine for the bees) and keep them on the straight and narrow -- as well as getting a "shook swarm" that wants flat, straight comb -- you will be fine. If you cannot get into the hive(s) that often to start with and do not have any good drawn comb to use, best to put a couple sheets of foundation in the center of the box to get they started properly. 

If you use crimped wire foundation, I STRONGLY recommend cross wires. The crimped wire comes on rolls and retains quite a bit of curvature. You won't see this when you put the foundation in the frames because the wax holds the wires straight when cool, but when the bees get to using it and it's 98F, the wax softens and the wires will pull it into a curve. Naturally, this gives you curved brood comb that is a real PITA to get in and out, and if you are really lucky, you put one in each direction next to each other and get super deep cells on one side and nothing on the other, or they build bridge comb across the gap.

Traditional beekeeping is the distillation of a century of experience, it cannot all be wrong! Foundation, for example, is for the beekeeper, not the bees. Bees don't need it, but it makes life very much easier for the beekeeper!

Peter


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

I started my first two hives last spring. Both foundationless. Some comb is perfect. Some is messed up. My bees get pretty worked up when I try to straighten it up. Using a couple pf120 n each box sounds like a good idea. Can they be used in the honey supers too? I'm using ten frame all mediums.


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