# Heat exchanger temp setting



## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I shoot for 105F for the honey coming out of the heat exchanger. Too much lower and I am cutting wet wax. I also begin cutting at 1 inch and work my down to 7/8.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Pat at C&B suggests trying to stay between 100 and 105 for best separation and getting your blades down around 7/8". I would concur. After repeatedly getting really wet raw cappings out of the bottom on first startup in the morning, a little trick I have discovered is to back your blades off to a little over an inch, pump cappings in for only a couple of minutes first thing in the morning, then shut the pump down for a few minutes to allow the honey to work its way through the wax. After restarting the pump it would always work great the rest of the day. As soon as you start cutting wax then reduce your blades back down under an inch.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks guys! That's very helpful


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

I keep the water running though the exchanger at about 120 f sometimes less.
when the honey is the right temp you can here it slapping against the walls of separator to much slapping is not good tho.
As Jim said the trick in the mornings is to let some honey flow and then let her spin for a while before really getting going.
I just love it when the wax coming out is dry powder.


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## pleasantvalley (May 22, 2014)

Do you have the old style that circulates water or the electric one that circulates vegetable oil? If it's the latter, I set the dial on both of mine at 115F and the honey comes out in the 100-105 range that everyone else mentioned. I also learned the "warm up" trick that Jim uses but it's easier when you have 2 separators, since I pump honey through one and then the other. In the other case, I guess you just have to hurry up and wait. I find earlier in the season if the honey is a bit higher moisture, the wax comes out a bit wetter, but later in the season it comes out like sawdust. 

There are also some different setups with the spray jet. I've seen straight out, straight down, and 45 degree angle down. Anyone else want to weigh in?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We use oil and need to keep the oil temp between 135 and 140 degrees to maintain a honey temp of over 100 degrees when running 2,000+ lbs. per hour.


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## pleasantvalley (May 22, 2014)

This actually raised an interesting question in my mind.  Assuming Jim, that we both have 2 4500W elements in our C&B exchangers, is the oil used causing the difference in temperature? I have a single 120 frame extractor, but use 2 heat exchangers and spin floats and pumps on it. I'm using canola oil. Since there are different smoke points for different oils, how much of a factor is it and how much heat does different oil retain? I have also never verified the temperature of the slurry coming out with a thermometer, and just relied on the temp read out. They feel similar to the touch, although that is hardly scientific.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We are just using a single spinner and heat exchanger with the twin 4500 watt elements. Aside from the fact that you can initially retain more heat with oil it all comes down to whether your elements can maintain the temp whether it be oil or water.....at least that's how it seems to me. The elements rarely shut off when we are running at maximum speed. It's also important to clean out the intake manifold fairly regularly as every pipe that gets plugged reduces its efficiency. 
Here is an interesting note regarding the honey temp readout. One day I noticed that, according to the readout, the honey temp had dropped considerably. It finally occurred to me that a large fan had just been set up nearby. I wrapped a rag around the sending unit to protect it from the air movement and the temp quickly returned to the normal range.


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## pleasantvalley (May 22, 2014)

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Yes, oil will retain more heat. What I'm asking is that since you set your dial to 135 and I set mine to 115, is the oil a factor? Mine doesn't run continually, although it is quite a bit. How often do you change the oil?
Secondly, C&B now offers a different end cap for those "extracting high volumes" I have disconnected the motor & fin and switched over to this set up.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

pleasantvalley said:


> Sorry, I should have been more clear. Yes, oil will retain more heat. What I'm asking is that since you set your dial to 135 and I set mine to 115, is the oil a factor? Mine doesn't run continually, although it is quite a bit. How often do you change the oil?
> Secondly, C&B now offers a different end cap for those "extracting high volumes" I have disconnected the motor & fin and switched over to this set up.


I don't understand. Are you saying that oil holds more heat than water at a given temperature? 
If you are pumping 9000 watts into oil or into water the amount of heat added is equal, but the temperature of the oil will increase more. If your heating elements are running 100%, than using oil instead of water could increase your slurry temperature, by improving the heat exchanger efficiency due to greater tube/shell temperature differential, but the oil doesn't hold more heat.

Just my thoughts,
Luke


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## pleasantvalley (May 22, 2014)

sharpdog said:


> I don't understand. Are you saying that oil holds more heat than water at a given temperature?
> If you are pumping 9000 watts into oil or into water the amount of heat added is equal, but the temperature of the oil will increase more. If your heating elements are running 100%, than using oil instead of water could increase your slurry temperature, by improving the heat exchanger efficiency due to greater tube/shell temperature differential, but the oil doesn't hold more heat.
> 
> Just my thoughts,
> Luke


Maybe I'm overthinking it or poorly worded my thoughts . The old setups circulated water using a boiler or hot water tank. They didn't have the reservoir, at least not that I've ever seen. The newer units are closed circuit and have oil with an element to heat it. So what I'm asking is what is causing the difference in where we set the dial ie. how hot we have to get the oil for a given honey output? 
Maybe this will add to my own confusion, but my "oil temp" readout IS 135F, same as Jim. But the I set dial at 115 to get that.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have yet to use mine, production starts for us Tuesday.

want to hear my set up story?

My electrician wired in my machine, and asked me to check the drum rotation when I first start it up to be sure he had the wires correct. Well, I finally got the machine anchored to the floor, and turned it on. I had not checked to be sure the drum was rotating the correct direction... flipped the lever open the drum valves and smashed it!!!

somehow I was able to push the outer drum back into shape without a blemish, I re tightened the ports which were not damaged, and had my machinist rebuild the lever. Works good as new.

I tell you, its a terrible feeling the moment after you just smash the brand new machine that you had been waiting to get for 10 years... lol, and knowing that machine needs to work right away!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If I do my conversions correctly, as I work in Celsius , 100 degrees F -32 *5/9 = 38 Degrees Celsius. Thats warmer than I had anticipated. I was thinking the honey would be warmed to 30 Degrees Celsuis, 30*9/5+32= 86 F


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## busy bee apiary (Aug 7, 2010)

I like to run my honey temp at 103 and to do this the oil ranges from 135-150. The different range on the oil temp varies based on the temp of the honey going in as well as the speed at which it is passing through, I also believe the moisture % of the honey plays a small factor as well. One cup of hot water dumped in the spinner 5 mins after start up and a little before the honey starts to enter makes a world of difference loosening up the wax wall and getting it ready for the day.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

pleasantvalley said:


> Maybe I'm overthinking it or poorly worded my thoughts . The old setups circulated water using a boiler or hot water tank. They didn't have the reservoir, at least not that I've ever seen. The newer units are closed circuit and have oil with an element to heat it. So what I'm asking is what is causing the difference in where we set the dial ie. how hot we have to get the oil for a given honey output?
> Maybe this will add to my own confusion, but my "oil temp" readout IS 135F, same as Jim. But the I set dial at 115 to get that.


I don't have a honey exchanger, but I suspect one of two causes. Either the dial is out of calibration (likely a set screw holds it in place), or the dial controls the heat medium outlet temp, and you are monitoring the medium inlet temp. Likely the dial is out.

Or i suppose the temperature indicator could be out of cal, but i doubt it unless it was wrapped past full scale.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

How hot does your honey come out of your respective hot rooms? That is most likely the difference. Oh, a 120 for 2 heat exchanges and separators and a 120 for 1 heat exchange and separator. Half the flow as normal would not need the high temp.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

MNbees said:


> As Jim said the trick in the mornings is to let some honey flow and then let her spin for a while before really getting going.
> I just love it when the wax coming out is dry powder.


Is the purpose of letting it spin for a while with the initial load to help warm up the drum or just to give it extra time to spin off the honey? How many folks actually hook up the water sprayer? I have heard it sprays WAY too much water from factory, but also hear its critical to have water hooked up to have the wax come out like sawdust.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

BMAC said:


> Is the purpose of letting it spin for a while with the initial load to help warm up the drum or just to give it extra time to spin off the honey? How many folks actually hook up the water sprayer? I have heard it sprays WAY too much water from factory, but also hear its critical to have water hooked up to have the wax come out like sawdust.


The residual wax in the drum is pretty dry depending on how long it was run after "dumping" the honey from the previous session. It just takes a bit for the new wet cappings to migrate through and begin flowing again. 
Yes, in my opinion, the factory setup runs too much water through the cooling jet. The nozzle is supposedly calibrated for a gallon an hour at 40 psi. I have reduced the pressure back to 20 psi and, as I mentioned earlier, put in a solenoid valve to shut off the flow when the pump isn't operating. The cappings are still coming out fairly dry (of honey) but with very little additional added moisture from the water jet. I have only run it for short periods without the water so I really couldn't say how they would operate with no water at all.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

How often do you guys take out the drum and clean. I have talked to one guy that cleans it after everyday. Another every friday, another guys cleans it out after every pull. Granulation is a concern up here with canola honey, so I suppose that is the main reason for the frequent cleanings.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Jim thanks for the reply. I am still getting my honey house squared away. It makes sense now about letting some honey in and then allowing it to run for a bit before running more honey into it. Does anyone keep heat on the sping float itself? I have a friend in Oklahoma that doesn't use a heat exchanger before the spin float. The honey is warm enough there he just doesn't need it. 

I have heard of some folks not using water at all. I will have to wait and see what I determine I need to do when I buy a spin float. This year I bought a gunness 200 from a friend. That will probably due for the annual honey house upgrades.


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

i have run it with out water many times and still works. Yes the water is a bit excessive but we have a floor drain about 3 feet down grade from the separator so any water seeps out of the wax pile and into the drain. running with out water you run the risk of the blades grabbing a large chunk of wax and then you will go out of balance more often. Also the water in the wax is no problem for us because we shovel the cappings into the wax melter instantly. If you store the wet cappings you could get fermentation.
As for cleaning the drum I do it before we start for the season and thats it. Unless i need to for some reason.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Do the spin floats get out of balance often? How bad does it get when they are out of balance? Do they settle back into balance quickly?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I added a selinoid onto the water system as Jim suggested. Seems to be the perfect solution as the amount of water flow seems excessive to me. My neighbour never uses his water


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## pleasantvalley (May 22, 2014)

The simple answer is probably the correct one. It came from the factory like that 10 years ago and has pushed millions of pounds of honey through it. I just kept turning the dial until my honey output was 100 and never touched it again. 



sharpdog said:


> I don't have a honey exchanger, but I suspect one of two causes. Either the dial is out of calibration (likely a set screw holds it in place), or the dial controls the heat medium outlet temp, and you are monitoring the medium inlet temp. Likely the dial is out.
> 
> Or i suppose the temperature indicator could be out of cal, but i doubt it unless it was wrapped past full scale.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

We ran a mock run this afternoon to get the kinks out of the extraction machinery. We ran through 4 pallets about 5 barrels worth. 

That Spin Float seperator is my new favorite thing. Wow does that machine ever work! Clean clean honey in my tank, and powder cappings (besides the moisture from the water jet). Great tip on the water solenoid Jim. I could manually apply the water but this way there is not a thought put towards it during operation.

I have a few questions about the operation of the machine;

1. Lots of foam in my spinner sump, none in my holding tank. is the foam in the spinner sump normal? 

2. My heat exchanger has the clean out cap and the hose pressure alarm. Through 4 pallets and the alarm sounded, opened the cap and she was plugged right full of wax. Do you guys clean out the machine more than once per day? How do you guys handle all the wax. Remember, I'm Canadian prairie beekeeping here, lots of wax. 
My collection sump does not have an agitator other than the auger itself. Do I need to install an agitator?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> We ran a mock run this afternoon to get the kinks out of the extraction machinery. We ran through 4 pallets about 5 barrels worth.
> 
> That Spin Float seperator is my new favorite thing. Wow does that machine ever work! Clean clean honey in my tank, and powder cappings (besides the moisture from the water jet). Great tip on the water solenoid Jim. I could manually apply the water but this way there is not a thought put towards it during operation.
> 
> ...


Yup, the foam is normal. 
I have a pretty large sump and just stir it good with a hoe each morning.
Wax plugging in the intake of the heat exchanger? I don't have an answer. You are mixing your extractor honey with your cappings I presume. I clean mine out weekly (100+ drums) and have never seen it more than about half plugged, usually with small sticks and an occasional piece of plastic foundation. Are you running many chunks of hard dark comb through? I actually don't have my alarm hooked up.....don't ask, my screwup. The first few days I was kind of paranoid it would blow up so I checked it daily.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm going to be checking mine daily. Perhaps the bridge comb was being sent through. A hoe is a good idea, that would make a perfect wax mixer.
No hard dark comb in my honey supers, you should see the amount of comb I have built out over the last few years


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I would slave after every day, and at the end of every week skimming wax off the sump, and out of the tanks... and spin it out in my old drum spinner, which got _most_ of the honey out. 

Watching the first flakes of wax fall out of the spinner, and watch clean honey pump into the tank, was one of my more satisfying feelings since I started keeping bees!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> I'm going to be checking mine daily. Perhaps the bridge comb was being sent through. A hoe is a good idea, that would make a perfect wax mixer.
> No hard dark comb in my honey supers, you should see the amount of comb I have built out over the last few years


That sure sounds odd to me. Even a moyno isn't going to pump excessively dry wax, are you drawing from pretty near the bottom? Any chance the alarm setting is faulty and what you were seeing is normal? Your right, though. No longer than it takes to pop that cap off its a pretty good practice to do daily, at least until you learn more about what to expect.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

She was plugged, no doubt about that. 

Do you send your bridge/ burr comb through?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We run everything through except some box and lid scrapings that we throw directly in the wax barrel. We still have some dura gilt frames in our operation. I worry about that but so far have never gotten any of it up into the heat exchanger. Our floor sump is quite visible to the extractor operator and we often spot small floating chunks of wood and pull them out before they have a chance to get sucked in the pump.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Sounds like you should buy cook n beals uncapper. All the wax is pulverized.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Jim

IS THE SOLENOID VALE HOOKED INTO THE PUMP FEEDING THE heat exchanger???

Thank you


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

irwin harlton said:


> Jim
> 
> IS THE SOLENOID VALE HOOKED INTO THE PUMP FEEDING THE heat exchanger???
> 
> Thank you


Yes, the kind used on any refrigerator with an ice maker.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I had my electrician hook mine to the spinner pump switch. Less wiring


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Would there be any merit in sending all wax honey thru an ice grinder/shaver prior to heat exchange and spinner to ensure its broken into small enough pieces?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

BMAC said:


> Would there be any merit in sending all wax honey thru an ice grinder/shaver prior to heat exchange and spinner to ensure its broken into small enough pieces?


Most folks (including us) are using a Cowen uncapper into an auger and not having any problems. If you have slotted blades on your cutter it is, essentially, cutting it into ribbon sized slices, then the auger chops them up some more and the moyno pump a bit more. None of this should matter much if there is plenty of honey in the mix.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

I don't have a quick clean out cap on my heat exchanger and in 5 years have never opened the end. I had to fish out a wire from the bottom intake hole a couple of years ago but that is as close as I have come to opening the end. Plugged up seems kind of strange to me. I drain most of the honey out of the intake if I am not extracting for a couple of days and get some wax coming out, nothing to indicate it is plugged.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

After a lot of frustration with wax collection on the spin float we modified the wax pan. We turned the holes to the back and changed the slope so the water drained back. We modified the front so the wax can easily be pulled out - we use a window squeegee. We also added some wax deflectors on the sides.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

That looks like a good project for this winter. I have a tub sitting underneath, but, as you know, wax bits everywhere! 
excellent idea Allen. 

Do you remove the pan to empty, or always squeegee it out?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Really nice Allen. Make one for me.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Plugged up again today. There has to be something I'm missing...

I'm going to stop sending my burr comb through .

http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/IanSteppler/media/IMG_1929_zps7997bdf5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Ian, maybe you want to send your burr comb thru an ice shaver. Not sure but it might be worth a cheap fix to try out.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I don't know Ian, I'm not convinced that with pressure and honey that what I am seeing won't pass on through. Are you scraping bottom bars? We don't too much. Unless it's wood or plastic or perhaps some big chunks of propolis seems like it should move on through. Wish we had a psi reading on the intake side to compare. We run all our burr comb through, I don't know why yours would be any different.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> I don't know Ian,


I appreciate your comments Jim. I have been speaking to other beekeepers, and many clean out everyday. We have been mixing the tank more frequently. Lots of wax this year, boxes coming in heavy. 

That spinner is working flawlessly! I have saved so much time not skimming tanks, a little clean out at the heat exchanger is nothing LOL

This winter I'm building a cappings tank agitator. I have the paddle mixer from my old milk tank. Better mixed honey/wax is probably my issue.


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## Brian Suchan (Apr 6, 2005)

Ian said:


> I appreciate your comments Jim. I have been speaking to other beekeepers, and many clean out everyday. We have been mixing the tank more frequently. Lots of wax this year, boxes coming in heavy.
> 
> That spinner is working flawlessly! I have saved so much time not skimming tanks, a little clean out at the heat exchanger is nothing LOL
> 
> This winter I'm building a cappings tank agitator. I have the paddle mixer from my old milk tank. Better mixed honey/wax is probably my issue.


Ditto on the agitator i need one also!!


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Cleaning out the heat exchanger, we ran it for a whole week , the first week, very light boxes and not much wax, , but it was heavily plugged, now I clean it out every day and it is much easier to clean,lots of wire
The Cowan auger works best when down to the last 3 inches of honey in the sump but quite often we are pumping air and wax and not much honey....not good for the myno to be pumping air
Fellow beekeeper has a pressure gauge on his pump to tell him whats going on...cold honey and plugged heat exchanger


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Since I first read Ian posts about this it has made me curious about just what is going on "up there" as I failed to make provisions for the pressure warning light when I ordered my pipe. We have been cleaning out once a week (100-120 drums) for the past two years but checked midweek to compare it to Ian's recently posted photo. Mine certainly appeared pretty well plugged with close to half the holes actually blocked with small sticks and the remainder covered with a hard layer of wax. My conclusion is that with the 3" moyno and all stainless steel piping going in that I have probably been building up some pretty high pressure readings without realizing it but that the sheer power of the pump was still able to push wax and honey through. Pat mentioned to me that they put the alarm on because they had a few actually rupture from the high pressure. I think I will be checking a bit more often myself.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

We have been cutting LOTs of wax this pull... I have the guys clean it out at noon and after work everyday. It probably is a bit excessive but might as well clean it out before the alarm goes off and interferes with the work of the day. My problem is too much wax and I am not getting it mixed well enough into my honey. This winter Im building a mixer out of a SS milk mixer I have laying around. 

I know the older heat exchange models have a rotary blade that works on the honey inlet. Why was this discontinued? Did it not work? SOunds to me it would solve my problem...


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

My experience is very dated, from the late 60' and early 70's, but we NEVER stopped to clean anything out until the end of the season. Granted, we where closer to 30-40 drums a week. I do not believe we heated the honey much more than 100 deg F. My only explanation is that we did a better job of mixing. The tank had a round bottom and horizontal shaft, which had angled paddles that looked like curved top "T"s attached to it. I believe there was a float switch that turned on the Moyno when needed. Yes, we would fish out any sticks that floated between pump operation. We did NOT use the water spray. 

I hope all of you issue hearing protection to those in the extracting room. 

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

my machine is whisper quiet, you cant hear it run, just the grinding every once and awhile as it cuts wax


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Age old problem, too much wax ,and or ,wax not getting mixed or into fine particles to go thru heat exchanger
The older rotary blade with slip clutch quite often needed to to be adjusted , only cleaned mine out at the season end...a annoyance to stop and fix,to me its all about production or getting her done, don't need little distractions ...a smooth flow of honey ,wax,boxes ,drums,thru the honeyhouse


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ian wrote:

my machine is whisper quiet, you cant hear it run, 

Great!!! glad they fixed that.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

We have been cleaning the heat exchanger noon and at clean up. Takes us 5 min. 
The other thing I will be scheduling is weekly pulling the spinner drum. I'm 100 drums into my pull and the spinner started spitting out wet wax. So I pulled it this evening and she was caked with granulated honey. This canola sure hardens fast. 

why in the heck do they have us make a insert to pull the drum... ? You would think they would send something smart looking along with the spinner, because regular maintenance requires that drum to be pulled... just a thought.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian, mostly we just squeegee the wax into a bin and then dump it into a barrel.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Jim, unfortunately all of my ideas cost me shop rate. If I was handy I would gladly make you one.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian, I find it interesting how often you need to clean out the heat exchanger. I didn't know I had to. I have never done so in five years. 

I was starting to get some wetter wax today as well, but I hate cleaning the drum and will try to push off cleaning the drum for a bit if I can. I backed the knife back to an inch and ran the honey in at about 107 for a bit. Then I slowing worked my way back to 7/8 of an inch. Did the trick for now. Hopefully I can push the cleaning off for a bit longer.

Another thing I do every morning before I close the dump valves is poke a nail through the dump holes to make sure they are clean. Before I did this it seemed they would shut with canola honey at times.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Love this machine! Over the last week we have learnt a lot about how to operate it. 
We had a power surge last week and my guys did not trip the valves fast enough... first dump of honey on the floor. Lesson learnt the hard way. 
I can see why it is so important to keep the drum free of granulated honey. The bottom edge was caked with a hard layer of granulaton which was restricting the fluid movement of honey through the baffle. No granulation in the wax layer other than a hardened rim of wax along the bottom edge of the drum. 

Im going to make an attachment to fit my forklift which will allow me to tilt the drum upwards and help with clean up. If I can pull the drum easier I will be able to clean it more frequently.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> We have been cleaning the heat exchanger noon and at clean up. Takes us 5 min.
> The other thing I will be scheduling is weekly pulling the spinner drum. I'm 100 drums into my pull and the spinner started spitting out wet wax. So I pulled it this evening and she was caked with granulated honey. This canola sure hardens fast.
> 
> why in the heck do they have us make a insert to pull the drum... ? You would think they would send something smart looking along with the spinner, because regular maintenance requires that drum to be pulled... just a thought.


They do sell 3 different drum puller attachments though they would be pretty ways to make.
http://cooknbeals.com/separator.php


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> They do sell 3 different drum puller attachments though they would be pretty ways to make.
> http://cooknbeals.com/separator.php


Oops didn't realize those were hoists. They included a strap that fits inside to lift it safely out with mine.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I might spring the cash for one. Add it to the list. Wonder why they dont provide a drum attachment with the machine? 

Anyhow, if the job is easier to do, it will get done more frequently. And if its set up so it can be done easily, that job can be added to the hired mens list !


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

A kettle full of boiling water into the spinner first thing in the morning,helps keep the granulation from building up .Made my own drum puller, a 120 volt princess auto winch on a overhead trolly....alot easier than 3 guys trying to lift up at the same time


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Irwin sounds similar to my drum puller setup. Can easily do it on my own now.


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