# Moving forward after AFB



## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

I am the beginner bee keeper. I started with three hives from packages. My mentor gave me a frame of drawn comb for each package to get them started. They did well all last summer. The one Hive I kept in my yard started flying out into the snow and dying in the middle of winter. I sent away suspicious looking, Beltsville and they diagnosed TM resistant AFB. Everything (except 1 frame I ‘m using as a positive control for Holts Mild test) has been destroyed. It’s my remaining hives I’m concerned with. I never disinfected my hive tools, I did not scrub clean my smoker or wash my hands between hives. Clearly these other two hives have been indirectly exposed to AFB but to what degree, I cannot say. 

I found the information on the internet regarding AFB is basic at best. Every link you click on it's just a regurgitation of the basics and not much nitty-gritty. Even on this forum I have not found much detail, so maybe I am not utilizing the advanced search function properly? maybe AFB is taboo in the beekeeping world and people don't talk about it- like airing dirty laundry? 

I've removed empty bottom boxes off my two remaining overwintered "Healthy" hives. In that comb, I'm looking for scales and looking for cell/scales that fluoresce with the backlight, I'm doing Holts milk test on anything that looks suspicious and I'm sending some samples to Beltsville, but they are weeks behind. The milk test is rather subjective, and I'm not getting clearing everytime I use an AFB scale from my infected hide as a positive control. I did a few times, and other times not. But for the most part nothing is clearing the milk. As far as the backlight, pretty much everything is lighting up. Entire frames from my healthy hive have fluorescence in the bottom of the cells, a pale mint green but it is not a true bright fluorescent. I am not convinced I'm reading it right either. I need to decide whether I give them back this comb or let them draw new. 

So now I'm left watching and waiting, to see if these hives or break with AFB. They overwintered in my Minnesota winter (w/ a newbie caring for them) so I don't think they actually have the disease. I can't imagine a weak AFB Colony making it through the winter. I can't believe if everything I'm seeing are AFB scales in my healthy hives but they would be as strong as they are now. What I'd like from you all, is what to expect in these other two hives. Is it likely they will break? am I doomed forever to have this in my area?, and quite possibly in my location since we do have some feral hives on the property? would it be overkill to do a shook swarm and get rid of everything they have in their boxes if I get a positive comb sample from Beltsville (but in the absence of clinical disease)? I had intentions of splitting these hives and have Queens available to me in a few weeks. Do I dare put everything in new equipment? Would be really nice to know what others have done when faced with AFB in their apiary and the outcome. I’d like to know what to expect.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I seriously doubt that any infection of AFB was ever caused by a hive tool or smoker or gloves. It's contaminated comb that is probably the cause of AFB especially brood comb. Conaminated equipment maybe after that. But probably most of it is spread by the robbing of the colony weakened by AFB.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Oh my, that's awful news! I have no personal experience with this, but I do worry about it.

Since it's TM resistant, I suppose there's nothing to do while waiting for the tests to come back.

With only two colonies I think that when it gets warm enough, I would do a shook swarm on to completely new equipment (and destroy the frames and combs, and scorch the interior of the wooden ware.) And then see how they progress for another season before making any increase. And I would practice really rigid apiary sanitation in the meantime, including not allowing any visitors, etc. sort of hoof-and-mouth type quarantine.

Are your mentor's bees showing any disease signs - does he routinely do prophylactic treatments? Are there migratory outfits nearby who might do that? 

I am so sorry you have to deal with this. I hope your other colonies are clear.

Enj.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

If you decide to do a shake out onto new equipment make sure to first shake them into a box with empty drawn com. They will use this comb to deposit what's in their guts. The next day you can shake them onto undrawn foundation and they won't have spores in their gut-hopefully. I have done this and it saved my bees and all went well. Killing afb bees is a real pia. I used soapy water and it took a long time to kill the bees. I wish I had a better and faster W to kill the bees I did have to kill. After this ordeal I decided to put them on new equipment.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

first off what is your state law concerning this? Here we have to kill the bees and burn all infected equipment in the hive. if not, you can try what challenger said. I have read many success stories of shakeouts and then burning frames and scorching your boxes real well.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

My state apiarist is gone this week....couldn't find MN laws on the internet. The diagnosed hive is dead and gone already (dead out over winter) I did not realize they had AFB going into winter, there was no smell and seemed to be plenty of bees and brood by my newbie standards...in hindsite now, I can see the sunken & perforated caps and some scale characteristic of AFB. I expected a smell, there just wasn't one.

It is the 2 other hives, located 3/4 miles away, I'm concerned about. They have no signs and are brooding up well this spring, they over wintered and are strong and healthy. These are the hives I'm not sure if I should just monitor real close or shake and replace all equipment as a preventative measure. 

I'm interested in knowing how other people dealt with hives that didn't have AFB but were in there apiaries or proximity...and if they eventually developed AFB despite the measures they took. 

There are very few bee keepers in my area, closest kept hives around 5 miles away (my mentor who has not had clinical AFB disease but has had a deadout or 2 every winter (diagnosed AFB?)of her 4-6 hives she trys to keep) but I know of 3 feral colonies within 3 miles of these but haven't visited them yet to see how they fared over winter.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

i have had experience with AFB many years ago. it can remain dormant for 50 years or more. at the first sign of it kill the hive dig a hole and burn everything. yes tools, gloves and clothes can spread it. fire is the only 100% disinfectent. chemical sanitizers are useless. radiation is not really practical. the spores last for years often with no outbreak. if you have it, do like they say "burn baby burn". this stuff will slowly put you out of bees if you are not watchfull and cautious. you could [likely] have had it come with the drawn frames. if you started with old used hives this is another likely source. it could have come with the bees. it could have come from honey or robbing. this disease happens slowly, but once you have it spreads. antibiotics cover it up but this is not a cure you still have it.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

enjambres said:


> Are your mentor's bees showing any disease signs - does he routinely do prophylactic treatments? Are there migratory outfits nearby who might do that?


No, no signs but she has had her share of deadouts after MN winters - not sure that is so uncommon here. BUT, when she got into bee keeping 10 years ago, her mentor (who is now passed but had got her started with equipment) told her he had AFB in his past but it was cleared up and all that affected was burnt. He told her to use TM regularly...and she did for a few years but quit because she didn't' want or understand why she should put Antibiotics in the hive. Hard to say if her deadouts were AFB or not. She had actually not really even thought about it until this came up with my hive. She has culled most of her old brood frames but we'll go searching them for scales as weather allows.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

AFB is not really a winter problem other than weakened hives. if you are told "i had it, its gone but use antibiotics as a precaution", then this is likely where it came from.. way back my bees got it from robbing wild bee trees. nothing i have now is from then. except a little experience.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Not mentioned but make sure the hive equipment is infected is screened off or otherwise protected to prevent robbing and spore transfer until it is burned. 

It should be recognized that AFB spores are much more prevalent than often thought. A survey of it in BC found it in 30 % of commercial apiaries, but only a couple had it at levels that were of concern according to threshold levels (if my memory serves me right). Not every hive was tested so those numbers are probably low.

When it does manifest, spore loads are very high and highly contagious. Take some hygienic measures with your inspection stuff, watch the remaining hive like a hawk this year. Don't transfer any bees/brood/comb out of your location until you and your state inspector are satisfied you are out of the woods. By all means lean on the state inspector for help. He can inform nearby apiaries to be more vigilant as well. For some who like to take that approach we have irradiation facilities to disinfect hive equipment here in BC. Are there similar facilities elsewhere?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

TM IS now useless against AFB. A cure exists in treating with tylan/tylosin. You now need to get a prescription to acquire it from a livestock (food animal vet) it should not be used like TM was, routinely twice a year until its effectiveness was lost. Three treatments in powdered sugar dustings a week apart will clean a colony up. Heavily infected frames should be burned. This works. Save the squalls and bleats.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Vance G said:


> A cure exists in treating with tylan/tylosin. You now need to get a prescription to acquire it from a livestock (food animal vet) it should not be used like TM was, routinely twice a year until its effectiveness was lost. Three treatments in powdered sugar dustings a week apart will clean a colony up. Heavily infected frames should be burned. This works. Save the squalls and bleats.


it seems that not all the people selling tylan have got the message a google and amazon search turns up many sources, so far.

http://www.amazon.com/Tylan-Soluble...&qid=1460472986&sr=8-1&keywords=tylan+soluble


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

lharder said:


> Not mentioned but make sure the hive equipment is infected is screened off or otherwise protected to prevent robbing and spore transfer until it is burned.
> 
> It should be recognized that AFB spores are much more prevalent than often thought. A survey of it in BC found it in 30 % of commercial apiaries, but only a couple had it at levels that were of concern according to threshold levels (if my memory serves me right). Not every hive was tested so those numbers are probably low.
> 
> When it does manifest, spore loads are very high and highly contagious. Take some hygienic measures with your inspection stuff, watch the remaining hive like a hawk this year. Don't transfer any bees/brood/comb out of your location until you and your state inspector are satisfied you are out of the woods. By all means lean on the state inspector for help. He can inform nearby apiaries to be more vigilant as well. For some who like to take that approach we have irradiation facilities to disinfect hive equipment here in BC. Are there similar facilities elsewhere?


 .... yes there are irradiation facilities , but by the time you haul stuff a few hundred miles it is better to just burn it and start over.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

We have a service in NC run through NC State University. The local bee inspector will pick up the equipment and bring it back after it is done. It takes several weeks. The cost is very little too.
Personally I don't see the logic in burning the equipment if it can be cleaned properly but there are always exceptions to doing so given the logistics etc.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

I am a mixed animal veterinarian so access to meds is not an issue, we have Tylan on the shelf. I'll wait to talk to the bee inspector before I even consider treatment of the so-far-not-showing-signs colonies..I just don't know if these other colonies are infected or not. I did not share resources and they were at a close but separate location. Exposed, through me and my tools, but unclear to what a typical threshold to lead to infection or disease is. Some sources say a low threshold, others a high....depends on overall immune system and other stress. Exposure, infection and disease are 3 very different things. I can't see to find any case studies or others experience who had AFB. Does it typically end up with them all getting it or can it only affect some hives in an apiary? If this is going to be a disease in which they usually all end up with it, then I'm ok with euthanasia. But I won't kill then with out good reason either. Everything from the infected hive, frames, honey, boxes is already gone. 

The other thing I can't seem to find in any incident maps/ demographic studies...must not be followed like other serious animal diseases?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

AFB is around in north america. if the spore level is high enough and the bees are susceptable, by low immune activity or some genetic factor [some bees seem to have more resistance] an out break will happen. the more the outbreak is going on the more it will spread. there will be more spores.the spores can survive in old comb and in clean appearing woodenware over 50 years. antibiotics can stop the symptoms, the outbreak appears gone, but antibiotics and saniizers will not kill the spores. it is unclear what kind of numbers to put on all this but it looks like an outbreak leads to a bigger outbreak.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

twgun1 said:


> I am a mixed animal veterinarian so access to meds is not an issue, we have Tylan on the shelf. I'll wait to talk to the bee inspector before I even consider treatment of the so-far-not-showing-signs colonies..I just don't know if these other colonies are infected or not. I did not share resources and they were at a close but separate location. Exposed, through me and my tools, but unclear to what a typical threshold to lead to infection or disease is. Some sources say a low threshold, others a high....depends on overall immune system and other stress. Exposure, infection and disease are 3 very different things. I can't see to find any case studies or others experience who had AFB. Does it typically end up with them all getting it or can it only affect some hives in an apiary? If this is going to be a disease in which they usually all end up with it, then I'm ok with euthanasia. But I won't kill then with out good reason either. Everything from the infected hive, frames, honey, boxes is already gone.
> 
> The other thing I can't seem to find in any incident maps/ demographic studies...must not be followed like other serious animal diseases?



Generally I don't think you see AFB much in the winter due to there being little brood. There is a chance it is in your other colonies and will not show itself. I agree with your plan to not do anything yet. Wait and see if its an issue in your hives come brood rearing time. If it is going to pop up it that is a possible time along with stressed times. And if it does show up follow whatever your law says but keep in mind what Vance said. Tylan will save them. But remember that you will probably still have some spores around in that equipment and you will have to decide what to do with it. Keep bees long enough and youll get to experience AFB.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well first you are to be congratulated for going through the necessary steps that led you to the diagnosis. So many folks would have gone "oh, a deadout, I'll use those combs on the other hives next season".

The infected hive can never be reused, unless it is irradiated. You said it is dead and gone. Does gone mean burned? Because that is the best thing to do with it, and in some states is a legal requirement.

Re the other 2 hives, if you cannot find any AFB run them in quarantine for 2 years, after that release them from quarantine. To quarantine, number the hives, hive one, and hive two. Write those numbers on each box that goes on the hives. Ensure that after honey is extracted the boxes go back to the same hives. And obviously, no gear transfer of any sort between hives.

Shook swarming, done right it mostly works. But not always. In my view, if a person is going to shook swarm and then burn the old hive, makes better economic sense to burn the bees also, and be done with the infection, definately.

Drugs? Yes, they can work. But understand this. Antibiotics kill the active AFB, but not the spores. So you can treat a hive with drugs, it will clear up, but if it has enough spores in it the disease will pop out again later. That is why some beekeepers are trapped in a cycle of having to feed drugs forever. They have suppressed the disease, and because they cannot see it have spread it through all their hives, and now can never stop using drugs. My advice don't do it. I should say that a permanent cure can sometimes be achieved by antibiotics, if the infection is caught early and spores are at a low level that will not again cause symptomatic AFB. But for an inexperienced beekeeper drug use may just perpetuate the problem.

I had an AFB outbreak last season thanks to somebody moving an infected apiary to 800 yards from my apiary. As a result I first found 6 hives that were burned, then later there were another 11 had to be burned, shown in the pic.


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