# My swarm prevention system



## wcubed

Mr. Palmer of VT stated on a thread a couple months back that anyone who said he could stop swarming was either a lier or a fool. He is a respected authority here on the forums. So, the statement must be true. Since I'm one of those persons who claims to stop swarming, I must be one or the other.

I'm not a lier. Learned as youngster that if one conducts himself in manner that he not ashamed of, there is never a reason to lie. Not many among us that can say truthfully that we didn't tell our parents a fib in our rebellious teen years. 

That leaves a fool. After reflecting on that question for some time, I think I might qualify as a fool. I have a history of poor investments in marriage, business, and personal health. My beekeeping time has poor judgements in all of those categories. When I had a reliable swarm prevention system, abandoned my original objective of supplemental retirement income. Thought other beekeepers ought to know about it. Very naive! Not only did they not want know about it, they were quite abusive about telling me so. But I persist. Foolish, no?

Walt


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## David LaFerney

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Absolutely not. Unfortunately your system of checkerboarding has been misapplied by so many people who then declare that it doesn't work that people believe it. Also, it is often explained in rather complex terms of how why and when it works instead of a simple how to do it form. As many times as I have read over it I'm only about 80% sure that I know how you do it - so please correct me if I am wrong...

1) Overwinter in a single deep brood box (with a shallow super of honey on top?)

2) In early-mid February - before any initial swarm prep - or nectar storage begins (In middle TN) checker board the honey by interleaving empty drawn comb (from extracted honey) with the honey frames in the super - resulting in two shallow supers where every other frame is empty comb with capped honey between it, and the honey on top is over a frame of empty comb in the super below it. This manipulation does not in any way involve the brood nest - don't mess with the brood nest at all at this time.

3) Install supers of empty comb before the cluster gets to the top of the stack - without an excluder. 

If you don't have enough supers of drawn comb to do all of this, then don't expect complete swarm prevention - foundation will not work at any point.

If you don't use single deeps and shallow supers then you are on your own to experiment and work it out.

Is that correct?


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## Rader Sidetrack

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Many documents about beekeeping methods written by Walt are available in the _Point of View _section of Beesource, here:

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/

:lookout:

Lots of reading at the link above. One of those documents available there is "Swarm Prevention in Tennessee", involving checkerboarding, available at this link:
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/swarm-prevention-in-tennessee/


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## brooksbeefarm

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

I won't go as far as Mike,and say you are lying,but i think you are fooling yourself. Like a friend of mine says, Bees are bees and will do as they please.


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## MJuric

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

*In early-mid February - before any initial swarm prep - or nectar storage begins (In middle TN) checker board the honey by interleaving empty drawn comb (from extracted honey) with the honey frames in the super - resulting in two shallow supers where every other frame is empty comb with capped honey between it*

Don't the bees eat the honey over winter? Why would you have a completely full honey super on top of another deep all winter if they don't need those stores? For the most part I have the exact opposite problem, by Feb early march the top box is empty. 

~Matt


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## David LaFerney

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Don't the bees eat the honey over winter? Why would you have a completely full honey super on top of another deep all winter if they don't need those stores? For the most part I have the exact opposite problem, by Feb early march the top box is empty. 

~Matt[/QUOTE]

So you can use it to checkerboard to prevent swarming - before they eat it. Which will be different in Illinois than it is in TN. And then they will eat it. Read the articles if you are interested. Or don't.

And BTW, a basic principle of swarm prevention is to at least add supers before they get to the top. So by the time that top box is gone your bees are probably already counting the days until they leave.


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## squarepeg

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

if nasa can trust walt, maybe we can too.

(walt manned a station at mission control during the apollo moon shots)

and having met walt in person and having spent some hours discussing bees i can vouch for the fact that walt is no fool.

(unless of course i am, and that's possible... :lookout

what walt is not saying in his op is that he had a run of several seasons with *zero* swarms.

that may be hard for some to believe, but i do.

i just completed my third full season with bees, and so far every one of my colonies have swarmed every year, except the ones this year that i had enough comb and honey to properly follow walt's checkboarding technique. 

as expected, the ones that didn't swarm gave me 2 to 3 times more harvestable honey than the ones that did swarm.

david is right in that there is confusion about what checkerboarding is and isn't. the pov articles are good, but not as good as walt's manuscript. 

the manuscript is currently only available directly from walt, and i heartily recommend it to everyone regardless of whether you are in the north or south, and regardless of what size boxes you run. i found it to be one of the most insightful works on colony dynamics through the year that i have read.

there was some discussion about making the manscript available for purchase here on the forum. it sure would helpful if we were all on the same page when discussing this topic. barry? walt? can it be done?


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## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Walt, do you really feel that some people think you are lying or even a fool? I don't see it even from M Palmer that you have singled out. I see two well experienced beekeepers who have different approaches to raising bees. Would anyone think M Bush is a liar or a fool? His approach is different still.


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## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Thank you, David. Your summary of the basic concept is correct. Item 1 has been revised over the years. We now overwinter with an empty shallow of drawn comb on the bottom and two shallows of honey above the deep basic broodnest. The empty shallow on the bottom is last year's pollen box, left in place overwinter, and used to CB the top shallow of honey in Feb. The pollen box maneuver is not related to swarm prevention, but is a feature incorporated to improve colony wintering.

Walt


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## MJuric

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

*So you can use it to checkerboard to prevent swarming - before they eat it.*

I'm not following. Are you saying that you should have enough honey on each hive so that come spring there will be enough left that you can checkerboard the top box? 

Let me see if I can clarify. 

I winter in two deeps. The bottom is typically where they start out the cluster and it is has some stores on the outside going into winter. The top deep is typically almost entirely stores, maybe a few of the middle frames are empty. 

By Late February early March there typically is not a whole lot left in either box. In order to checkerboard at this point I would need a third deep and I would have to checkerboard the two top deeps leaving me with three deeps, the top two both with half honey.
*
Read the articles if you are interested. *

I've read a few of them but only last year did I have enough drawn comb to do much of anything with.

~Matt


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## Drone On

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Greetings,
I can not recall the exact year that I met Walt Wright beekeeper extraordinaire but I have NEVER had a swarm since. The point is not how much honey you have left above the brood nest in late winter, early spring, the point is to break up any honey block created by these remaining stores by Checkerboarding the frames how ever many or few there are so the bees can build up threw them so as not to trigger swarm prep. Am I right, Walt?


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## sqkcrk

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Are you easily parted from your money? No? Then I guess you aren't a fool. Yes/ Well, then, ... . But maybe you should get Spell Check. I don't think "lier" means what you think it does.


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## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Radar,
Thanks for the links. Went back to see what was written about CB in TN. Wow!! Mostly obsolete. We have not done any broodnest disturbance in years. My current opinion is that any broodnest jockeying delays development. During the recovery period, other things important to the colony are not getting done. 
And that was written while I was calling redbud the trigger for swarming - used for backfilling the broodnest. I now see backfilling as a major step in the overall instinctive process. My opinions matured with further study of the process.

Walt


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## psfred

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Checkerboarding becomes cumbersome if you use deeps, so I've started to experiment with using two mediums on top of a deep with an empty one below here in Southern Indiana to see if I can repeat Walt's experience.

I've had bees winter on rather less stores than I though would be necessary, but I don't have enough years at this to say for certain that a single deep with only a small amount of extra above will make it through every year, but a deep and a medium seems to be more than adequate so far. Two mediums is safer since it's impossible to predict winter weather with any reliability this early in the year.

The key to the whole idea is the empty comb above the brood nest -- it might work if you just put an empty super of drawn comb in there, but alternating empty and capped comb allows plenty of honey to be just outside the brood nest.

I finally have the required materials to checkerboard next spring, and hope to avoid what I'm fairly sure was swarming this year (neighbor reported a cluster of bees in the trees in his yard about the time the population dropped somewhat in my hives). Whatever happens it cannot be worse than loosing half my bees in the middle of the spring flow!

And just for clarity, I will repeat Walt's theory -- the presence of empty comb in sufficient quantities ABOVE (not IN) the brood nest tricks the bees into "thinking" that they do not have adequate stores to swarm, so they supercede or simply fill up the hive with honey instead. Opening the brood nest is a completely different system - I suspect it would be a poor idea to checkerboard frames if they have brood in them.

Peter


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## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> and used to CB the top shallow of honey in Feb. Walt


Is February the start of Spring in Tennessee? I don't think so. When I read the pamphlet I got the impression it was the start of brood expansion, way before spring. That is not so easy to do up here and maybe not so good to do up here in the north country. It might work great in warmer climates.


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## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Walt, 

a lot of people in Germany did buy the manuscript a couple of years ago and tried it and failed. I bought it, too, but never really understood the underlying concept and didn't get it working over here. I has been a time ago, but I remember something like the apple bloom as the time to checkerboard? Now in February? That is pretty early and in the midst of the winter. The bees need the most of their stores in March and April to raise and warm the young bees. Isn't it kind of dangerous to checkerboard in such a situation? We have sometimes a very cold spell at this time of year and brood easily gets chilled if the broodnest is not compact enough, because the cluster doesn't cover all of the brood.

Some other rather basic questions:

If you feed syrup for winter stores, you can't checkerboard, right? I mean without mixing syrup and honey while breaking up the "honey" cap. (Syrup cap that is.)

What happens if the broodnest is backflooded in strong flow? I can't think of any way to prevent this, even with lots and lots of empty comb. Does the queen stops laying and nothing else happens? 

Other thought. Could it be bee race depend? Many of us keep Carnolians over here, which are a bit swarmier than others. Also they tend to store nectar close to the broodnest and not distant to the nest. 

What is the significant difference between giving a super with emtpy but drawn comb and checkerboarding? 

Sorry for so many questions, but I really want to checkerboarding, which I failed so far.

And yes, a video blog would be nice. The available videos on youtube do not explain checkerboarding much, I reckon.


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## MJuric

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

*The point is not how much honey you have left above the brood nest in late winter, early spring, the point is to break up any honey block created by these remaining stores*

That makes sense to me. If you're coming out of winter with massive amounts of stores and no place to lay then you're going to trigger a swarm. 

So far I've only gone thru two winters. First one was un historically warm and short. The hives did come out of winter with considerable stores and with what little drawn come I had I tried to give them room. Last year however was pretty long and pretty cold. Those few hives I had that survived were pretty much cleaned out, empty on the top with nothing blocking their growth. 

From reading the original statement I was thinking he was suggesting adding honey to the top box and that did not make sense to me, not to mention that in order to make that happen over a long winter you'd have to have 3, maybe more, boxes to be able to add to the top box. 

~Matt


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## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

sqkcrk, 
It didn't look right to me. Pulled out my 2 volume World Book. For the second time in 20 years WB failed me. In both places where lie-- was listed lying was not shown.
..., lose a few.
Walt


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## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

English is like bees, so many exceptions ... I think you what "liar".


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## squarepeg

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

brian, the tree pollen starts coming in down here late january/early february, and is used along with the overwintered honey to start broodrearing and brood nest expansion, it's not really spring per se, but the beginning of broodrearing.

the idea is to have the supers checkerboarded by the time the red maples bloom, whenever that may be for your area.


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## squarepeg

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> What is the significant difference between giving a super with emtpy but drawn comb and checkerboarding?


bernhard, our spring was delayed here by several weeks this year, which caused me to have several hives with only 2-3 empty supers of comb above the single deep. instead of moving the broodnest up into all of that empty comb, the bees stopped a gap between boxes and made a solid band of honey at the top. they started capping at the top, backfilling their way down to the deep and swarmed.

having checkerboard honey will hopefully keep them moving up. i saw this happen in the few hives that had some honey left in the supers by the time the nectar flows started up. they did not 'dome' the top of the working space with capped honey, and they superceded their queen without swarming.


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## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



squarepeg said:


> the idea is to have the supers checkerboarded by the time the red maples bloom, whenever that may be for your area.


A red maple? May, I think dandelions are out in April. That is a whole different perspective. The thing is I do think brood nest expansion does happen in the end of February. up here. I would like to know if I am all wet on this thought if the experts would like to set me straight.


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## Rader Sidetrack

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Red maples blooming in New York in _March _2011:
http://natureontheedgenyc.blogspot.com/2011/03/red-maple-flowers-in-bloom.html


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## BWrangler

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Hi Guys

I just don't understand what's so hard about checker boarding. The process is simple. And the only real criteria is that it's done early enough.

I've checker boarded hives for years. And after running them that way, I've run them un-checker boarded as a test.

Early last season, my hives were very strong and healthy. But circumstances prevented me from checker boarding them. And that combined with a spat of bad weather, caused them to suffered.

I know all beekeeping is local. But checker boarding works with my non-migratory, 3 deep hives. Other than feeding starving hives, it's the only management practice I consider absolutely essential. Once they are checkerboarded, I can forget about them, for the season, if I want to.

And thanks to Walt I know about checker boarding. I certainly wouldn't have thought of it myself. 

Thanks Walt.

Regards - Dennis


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## clyderoad

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

-Rader- in many years you can also add the following plants to March bloom for downstate NY (Long Island)
skunk cabbage
willow
dandelion
almost forgot crocus and Siberian quill

-Ace yes, you are all wet.


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## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Ouch! It's a rough day when I have to be corrected by an acebird. Got it now, with an A.
My dictionary has it.
B.H.
Don't know what you folks did to get the wrong answers. Not using jumbos for hive bodies, are you?
To your questions:
Apple blossom is issue season here. To be effective, CB should be accomplished about 8 weeks earlier. (Pre swarm preps)
Feeding syrup in late winter should not be a problem. When CB is working, the brood nest will grow through that earlier syrup with broodnest expansion.
Brood chilling is not a problem. The manipulation is done above the broodnest, in the overhead capped honey. No broodnest disturbance.
There is no backfilling of the broodnest until the colony reaches reproductive cut off. The broodnest expands continuously until the time. Candidly, can't say I understand why it works that way. Just report what I see. At repro c/o the broodnest starts to recede with backfilling.

Don't think it is race dependent. Tried all the races available to me, including Russions. Couldn't find a source for gray caucasions. The fact that all races responded the same, makes me think that the technique taps some ancient instinct that was present when the bees expanded their range into Europe.

The difference between empty comb and CBed is a tough question. The best I can do is provide a couple of observations. The colony seems to perceive the top of their capped honey as the top of their cavity. That's true in the wild nest.
The colony "wants" to save a reserve of capped honey at the top of their cavity to carry them through the temporary period of max broodnest expansion. That reserve amount is approximately a shallow of capped honey, but some will save a full medium. ( The peak expansion is specifically to rear young bees to issue as a repro swarm.) Backfilling gets the broodnest back to proportional to cavity size, among other advantages.
The colony does not seem to be able to tell the difference between a solid super of honey and one with alternate empty frames. 

If you understand those observations, perhaps you would like to guess why the difference. Am open to suggestions.

Walt


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## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Dennis,
Thanks again. I had forgot just how good your blog was. You do a much better job of explaining the details than I. I'm sure your commercial background helps.

I started from scratch with no help from beginner books, introductory classes, or club meetings. Didn't even know they existed. I let the bees teach me what they thought I should know.

Walt


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## tank

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

What is the reason for using shallows instead of medium? What do you do when the cluster is in the top box? How do i get your manuscript? Thanks


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## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Walt and all, thanks for the replies.

The standard management over here in Germany is to remove all empty (brood) combs and restrict the bees onto the combs that are covered with bees. This can be 5-7 deep frames. This usually is in March, so pretty early. This way the bees are compacted and this helps warming in the sometimes very cold late spells we have.

All excess food combs (thus syrup) gets removed and is tucked away for making splits later. Bees are forced to eat up the food dome on the combs they sit on. (No stores can be moved closer to the broodnest. Bees move stores around in Spring, closer to the broodnest.)

As soon as the bees are out foraging for their first pollen, the hive gets supered. The experts here super with a shallow containing three to four drawn but empty combs in the center, the rest filled up with foundations.

(Beekeepers here do not want to extract honey from former broodnest combs, why they rather let the bees build fresh comb above the excluder. Also most beekeepers pay close attention not to mix up winter feed with the fresh honey.)

Being compacted on few combs, the bees readily take the super and start storing the nectar there, the first batch of young bees start working the foundation quickly and within a week (first white wax on topbars can be found at beginning of May) the super is drawn, immediately supered with another super. But this time a queen excluder in between. Again: center combs empty drawn comb and filled up with foundation. This is repeated up to four supers. (Shallows. Less with deeper frames.) With Buckfast bees the supers are just put on top. While with Carnolians it is necessary to put the new supers under the already filled super in order to prevent backflooding, because Carnolians store nectar close to the broodnest, no matter what.

In mid May and mid June some frames of brood are taken to make small splits and dampen the exploding increase of the hive population a little. Winter food combs, that has been taken before, are used for making the splits.

The goal is to get the bees into an upward motion. Just as I understand you do with checkerboarding. Keeping the broodnest free from backflooding.


That described management does delay swarming for quite a long time. One month or so. Natural swarming occurs end of May here, right after the first main flow at start of May. Next main flow is mid June and beginning of July.

So if I understand checkerboarding right, it achieves the same goal: breaking up the honey/food dome and getting the bees into an upward motion. ("Up into the sky" a friend of mine says.)

Anyway, cut-off date seems to be 21st of June, which is the summer soltice. Until then it is almost impossible to prevent the broodnest from backflooding, no matter what you do. Even if you delay swarming a little at mid June the bees try to swarm. Most beekeepers here remove the old queen and replace her with a young one 18 days later. Breaking cells two times in a 9 day intervall. Which breaks any swarm tendency for 100 %.

This is the golden standard:

- compact broodnest in March
- super in April
- keep supering as supers get filled
- one or two brood frame split in mid May
- requeen in June, breaking cells two times per hive.

It is not too much work. I also tend to requeen in mid May already, right when the colonies start to crowd, with some sort of "on the spot queen rearing" in distant non-migratory apiaries, which works great and is even less work. (Visit one time to remove the queen, another time seven days later to break all cells except one. That's it. It sure means some honey loss. But not significantly.)

The golden standard works with all sorts of (vertically oriented) hives.

The question that remains for me is, if you really can increase the broodnest significantly, since some bee scientists found out a close relationship between outside daily maximum temperature and egg. From my observation I can verify this.

From what I observed so far, swarming preparation starts when bees:brood-ratio starts to drop below 120 % after the first increase in early Spring. I compared it to the description of the checkerboarding dates and it pretty much matches.

In early Spring the broodnest expands and the winter bees care for the brood. The ratio bees to brood is 1 to 4 or even 1 to 6. So one nurse bee is caring for a many broodcells and larvae. The broodnest expands more and more. The first young bees emerge and take of the nursing. At a certain point the ratio between bees and brood is converging again = 1:5 > 1:4 > 1:3 and so on. Until it drops below 150 %. This is the time when queen cells appear.

I reckon this is due to the "smell" (hormons released by the larvae and distributed in the hive and between bees). Means the bees notice that there are more than enough bees to split up/swarm and still they can care for the brood. (One bee can nurse multiple brood cells.) The whole nest smells like brood in early Spring. Pollen intake is immense. Once the nest is full of emerged bees, the nest smells different, maybe in human terms "ripe".

I did some experiments this year with artificially keeping the ratio between bees and brood above 150 %, so I provided lots of fresh brood and took bees from the hives by shaking in order to keep up the ratio. Hives didn't swarm.

I wonder how this matches with checkerboarding. Maybe the broodnest expansion by checkerboarding keeps up the ratio.

Just thoughts, sorry for the long post.


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## Andrew Dewey

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Walt - I bought your manuscript, studied it, and hopefully learned from it. My big concern at the time (and one i still have) is while the concepts may be universal in application your description, research, equipment and timing used are local to you.

The regional differences in keeping bees make it impossible to apply your strategies without modification in my locale. You have brought up good things to think about and advanced my understanding of spring buildup. But I certainly understand Mike's point - Preventing swarming in Vermont is quite different from preventing swarming in Tennessee.

As one example - it is too cold here to be in hives 8 weeks before Apple Bloom. 5 weeks, maybe.


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## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> Apple blossom is issue season here. To be effective, CB should be accomplished about 8 weeks earlier. (Pre swarm preps)


"April showers bring May flowers." 8 weeks before is the end of February or the beginning of March. Might be safe to do in Long Island which is like the coast of NJ but I wouldn't suggest doing it here and certainly not where Mark and M Palmer live.


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## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

To visualize what I have wrote I put the following table. This is this year's Spring temperatures and the connected egg laying rate put together with starting parameters from a rather small colony. Starting parameters are estimated by inspection in February.

We got a late cold snap this year, which stopped the brood increase and hive development for some weeks.










Once the brood amount reaches 18,000 brood cells (which is considered the minimum amount of brood necessary about 40 days before the first flow for a productive colony) and the ratio bees and brood is 1:2 (or 200 %) the colony starts drone raising. It is pretty astonishing to actually be able to calculate from outside maximum temperatures the date when they start drone raising. But it works. Just track the temperatures and with some forecast data (which are not really reliable, especially in Spring...but a week or two in advance) you can calculate and predict the hive development. (To a certain degree of course. At the end it is just a calculation, not the reality.)

When the bee:brood-ration drops below 150 % after the first increase of the broodnest, the bees start definite swarm preparation, means they build swarm cells.

I still do not know, why that is, but hopefully others join in and verify the calculations by their own observations and monitoring. As said above I think it is the brood that releases hormons and by the ratio bee:brood the overall nest scent/smell differs.

Maybe this sort of insight, if it can be verified, delivers the background for why checkerboarding works - or helps to localizing the method by adjusting the system from the daily maximum temperatures.


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## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Wow Bernhard, great data. That is amazing how egg laying is proportional to temperature until it looks like a decision to swarm is made. Maybe that is the effect of backfilling.


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## ilikebs

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

This is great data. It would be very interesting to overlay this data for 5-6 years to see if how close to the same it is every year. Very interesting thanks for posting.


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## MattDavey

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

When dealing with animals nothing is 100% guaranteed. But if the chance of Swarming can be reduced to a small percentage with Checkerboarding, then i think you you can say it stops swarming.

So the debate is between a persons definition. Does it have to 100% stops swarming, or 95% stops swarming to make the claim that Checkerboarding stops swarming? 

I have checked out many claims that it hasn't worked and those people had not followed the guidelines. Usually they had left it too late in the season or hadn't used drawn comb.


Bernhard, that table looks wrong to me. It looks like it is calculations, not real data. Can you confirm what is real data? 

The number of eggs laid does not directly relate to the outside maximum temperature like you have in your table.


I believe Swarming is related to the following ratio:

Nurse bees : Open brood (brood between 3-8 days old)

When the numbers of Open brood get too low, or the numbers of Nurse bees gets to high, there are too many nurse bees to feed brood. Hormone levels in the Nurse bees change due to not feeding brood. Brood gets overfed with royal jelly. The queen get harassed more, and lays less. All conditions conducive to swarming.


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## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



MattDavey said:


> ..looks like it is calculations, not real data.


Well, as I wrote in my post above. It is a model that I use to forecast what is going on and it works pretty well for me. Means, I find in the hives what I forecast. Not a 100 % the same, but as you said: nothing is 100 % dealing with animals. Especially with bees.



MattDavey said:


> .. number of eggs laid does not directly relate to the outside maximum temperature like you have in your table.


Well, a very well known bee scientist, Josef Bretschko found out that correlation. He studied it in detail for decades and even wrote in a book about it. Two other bee scientists, Bergmann&Bergmann continued his work and verfied what he has found in their own studies. They even were able to develop a formula, which is the one I use in my calculations.

The formula is: egg laying per day y = x * 22.8295 1.4254 high 
Where x = is the daily maximum temperature. 

Bergmann&Bergmann also wrote a chapter or two in their book. With all the tables and results. The studies were done with Carnolian bees, but Bergmann&Bergmann indicated, that the correlation is true for other bees, too. As I find with my Buckfasts, this can be confirmed.

I just can invite you to look closer into it by your own observations. Write down the daily maximum temperatures and calculate from it, check with reality. I was surprised myself, since I am a bit sceptical a person.


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## MattDavey

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Rather than hijack this thread I have started another one here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?289844-Calculating-Swarming-dates

So are you saying Temperatures/Climate can greatly affect swarming timing and the results of trying to prevent it? Thus the different results because of the different climates of Michael Palmer and Walt Wright?

As an example, where I am in Victoria, we start seeing Drones from late July or early August, but don't have swarming until Mid October. A minimum of eight weeks between the two events, so seeing Drones is not related to the timing of swarms.


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## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



MattDavey said:


> So are you saying Temperatures/Climate can greatly affect swarming timing and the results of trying to prevent it? Thus the different results because of the different climates of Michael Palmer and Walt Wright?


This thread started by claiming that I was calling Walt a fool or a liar. It has become a discussion of walt's checkerboarding theory.

I re-state my point...first stated in a different thread, and one in which no names were put forth and no finger pointed.

There is no management procedure, short of removing brood and bees, that will prevent all swarming. None. If one makes such a claim...well, what can I say...they are mistaken.

Now, correct me if I am wrong...Walt, didn't your bees swarm last spring...2012? 

And again...I believe you say you never split boxes apart after the so called repro-c/o date because you damage too many "supercedure" cells between the boxes? And, you consider that a swarm that issues after that date to be a "supercedure" swarm? 

Just trying to clarify.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> The formula is: egg laying per day y = x * 22.8295 1.4254 high
> Where x = is the daily maximum temperature.


Are you missing an operator between two constants, 22.8295 and 1.4254?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Meant is 22.8295 to the power of 1.4254


----------



## David LaFerney

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Bernhard - Interesting chart. I notice that egg production falls to 0 when the daytime high temp is at or below freezing and increases sharply starting at about 5 degrees Celsius (41 F) which seems about right just based on observation. I've never seen it quantified like that though. I assume that you feel that is accurate?

Aside from swarming issues this data should give some insight about what is going on it the hives in (our) winter and early spring when we often have several days (or weeks) with temps in the 40s followed by colder periods - possibly correlating to clusters getting stuck on brood and starving to death with honey only 3 inches away. Completely preventable if it can be predicted.

You don't by any chance have that as a working spreadsheet that you would let out?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

OpenOffice:
http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/HiveDevelopment.ods

Excel:
http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/HiveDevelopment.xls

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0800rzlrzxd83u6/HiveDevelopment.xls


----------



## David LaFerney

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Thanks for the spreadsheets. Appreciated.

BTW, although I have not successfully reliably prevented swarming by checker boarding (I either didn't have resources to do it right or didn't do it at the right time though) I have observed that checker boarded hives don't starve during late cold snaps - the arrangement insures that plenty of honey is within reach of the brood/cluster. So, even if you can't do it in a way that effectively prevents swarming it still might be worth trying.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



David LaFerney said:


> ...


Let's discuss there: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?289844-Calculating-Swarming-dates


----------



## Tim Ives

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Michael Palmer said:


> This thread started by claiming that I was calling Walt a fool or a liar. It has become a discussion of walt's checkerboarding theory.
> 
> I re-state my point...first stated in a different thread, and one in which no names were put forth and no finger pointed.
> 
> There is no management procedure, short of removing brood and bees, that will prevent all swarming. None. If one makes such a claim...well, what can I say...they are mistaken.
> 
> Now, correct me if I am wrong...Walt, didn't your bees swarm last spring...2012?
> 
> And again...I believe you say you never split boxes apart after the so called repro-c/o date because you damage too many "supercedure" cells between the boxes? And, you consider that a swarm that issues after that date to be a "supercedure" swarm?
> 
> Just trying to clarify.


Prevent all swarming No. Dramatically reduce probabilities and get huge amounts of bees to put up 300-500# while drawing out 4-7 new supers. I do so EVERY year on hives supered up, checker boarding supers, not frames.


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> If you understand those observations, perhaps you would like to guess why the difference. Am open to suggestions.
> 
> Walt


Walt, I would like to offer this thought. feel free to treat it as you like. I see one issue may be to never let the bees reach that top box of checkered capped frames. I added three mediums above my deep brood chamber last spring before I ran out of boxes. and these new boxes where foundation. I found a long as the bees never got into that top box they would draw comb. produce brood and the whole nine yards. they woudl not move up until they have converted the space between the nest and the top to comb of some use.

I will also point out that our swarm season last year ran from March to late May. I do not think there was any chance of preventing swarms by any method with that prolonged a period of time.


----------



## merince

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Even though this thread does not answer the original question, it offers great insights!


----------



## ilikebs

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

I would like to know more about the checker boarding you guys are talking about. I do some type of checker boarding but most likely something I came up with.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Meant is 22.8295 to the power of 1.4254


I have never seen a power being a fraction of a whole number. Anyway a number to a power should be a number. Could you help me out on what that constant is?


----------



## Fusion_power

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

86.377 or a pretty close approximation of sin(60). I suspect it is like many natural events, tied to the solar theta angle.


----------



## Riskybizz

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Walt don't be so hard on yourself. Everyone has their own management techniques and nothing is 100% foolproof. I look forward to an abundance of swarm cell queens as they turn out to be my best queens to head new colonies. I could care less about loosing a few swarms to nature now and then, as again that existing colony will then be fortunate enough to have a new locally raised queen; one far better than I could purchase or likely raise.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Mike, 
We have not had a round lately. Over due.
Don't think I said in the OP that your statement was directed at me. This thread was just intended to apply it to me, because I DO say I can stop swarming. misspelling liar was inadvertent.

You state you opinion again here in positive terms. Hate to tell you this, but it is still wrong. Not me, but the checkerboarding technique does stop reproductive swarming. Let me state it this way: We have not had a reproductive swarm from any colony where we followed our own recommendations over an eight year period. A minimum of 20 colonies over 8 years is at least 160 opportunities in a highly swarm-prone area.

We did have 4 swarms during those 8 years where our recommendations where were NOT followed to the letter of law. 3 were cases where we tried a variation to see what would happen, and the 4th was accidental negligence - a pollen box was stored at the top of a strong colony for protection over winter and it blocked expansion in the spring.

Yes, we had one swarm last season. Seeing the average tree bloom was about three 
weeks early, we guessed Repro cut off would also be three weeks early. 2 of 6 showed the effects of repro c/o. We added a super of foundation above the broodnest on all. The strongest colony was not one of the hives that showed repro c/o and they swarmed. Another error on the part of the beekeeper. We recommend using drawn comb THROUGH repro c/o. (That timing milestone that you don't believe exists.)

brooksbeefarm also hinted at my possible failure to recognize swarming if I had some. A bonus feature of CB is the extra nectar stored overhead during the swarm prep period. If the colony is filling supers of nectar overhead during that period, it's positive evidence that CB is working. We don't even check for swarm cells. A definate work-saving advantage. Weekly supering passes tells me all I need to know.

About supersedure:
CBed colonies do supersede in the early season. 2nd year colonies as early as repro c/o and established colonies as late as early "main flow." I'm sure you know supersedure does not generate swarms. Don't understand your question. In fact, the brood break of SS mostly deters swarming. I repeat - NO swarms, when properly done.

You have wasted a lot of time badgering me, when with less time you could have tried CB.
It's of little concern to me if you never try it. But I make more honey than you do, under less favorable conditions.

Walt


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

walt, so you were overwintering with a single deep and three shallows, one below and two above the deep, which would be equal to about 2 1/2 deeps total space.

the bottom shallow got moved up in late february, and the goal was to have the first shallow super with solid honey and the second and third shallow supers checkerboarded with honey and drawn comb.

i'm curious as to how many shallow supers you ended up with on average by the end of main flow above that single deep, and how much harvestable honey you ended up with on average per hive.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> You have wasted a lot of time badgering me,


You baited him and I suspect it is what you wanted to do.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



squarepeg said:


> walt, so you were overwintering with a single deep and three shallows, one below and two above the deep, which would be equal to about 2 1/2 deeps total space.


Squarepeg just use mediums and forget the nonsense that bees won't cross the gap. Life gets simpler then.


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> You have wasted a lot of time badgering me, when with less time you could have tried CB.
> It's of little concern to me if you never try it. But I make more honey than you do, under less favorable conditions. Walt


Bologna


----------



## Roland

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Although I do not follow Walt's methods in Wisconsin, I would tend to believe his observed results. Preventing swarming is not that difficult, and various methods have been discussed, developed, and practiced for quite awhile. Our methods, acknowledged by Walt as possibly effective, where developed in the early 40's by my grandfather, a 3rd generation beekeeper. We see no evidence of swarming, and would bet that any individual could replicate our results by using the same methods. After all, swarm control in production hive is a walk in the park compared to managing basswood section comb honey hives.

Crazy(or foolish?) Roland
5th gen beekeeper
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


----------



## Walts-son-in-law

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Michael Palmer said:


> Bologna


Mike,

Bologna?

OK, how about independant, unbiased, non-solicited proof?

We just received a copy of an article written by a beekeeper in Georgia. Using Nectar Management he harvested 144 pounds of honey from a single hive this year. He says the normal production for his area is 50 pounds per hive per year, and this was a poor year due to a late, wet spring.

See the article here:
http://www.cowetahoney.com/news/computers-beekeeping-and-nectar-management-2013/

When you try it side by side with your management (and do it correctly) on scale hives you can make comments like that. Until then, clam up.

Roy


----------



## Honey Hive Farms

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Honey Hive Farms,

Hmmmm lots of talk here, we are going to stay out of this one.

Can everyone be right?

Tim Moore


----------



## MattDavey

*Re: "liar or a fool"*



Honey Hive Farms said:


> Can everyone be right?


Maybe.

Statistically 20 hives, or even 160 tests is not enough of a sample to make an absolute statement.


From Walt's point of view it is a 100% success.

Then from Michael's point of view, even if there were 10,000 tests done and only one hive swarmed, it would prove his point.


Can we say:

In general, Checkerboarding stops reproductive swarms? Yes.

Checkerboarding absolutely, 100%, all of the time, stops reproductive swarms? No.


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

roy, as you may know your father-in-law and i have become friends and have enjoyed sharing our experiences with each other. no need to ask anyone to clam up, for better or worse, that is what the forum is all about.

matt, well stated.

tim, welcome to beesource!

walt, please share your production averages with us, it's o.k. to brag here.


----------



## David LaFerney

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

The thing is for it to work you have to know exactly what to do, and exactly when to do it (by the local signs) and you have to have the resources to do it. And then you have to actually do it correctly, and timely. Most of us don't have the ability/time/motivation to act that deliberately.


----------



## Tim Ives

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Michael Palmer said:


> Bologna


Ok, I'll bite. What's bologna about Walt's statement?


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

David,
As Dennis (bwrangler) said, the requirement for when is just "early enough." On the first test of the concept, we did the manip while home for the holidays at Christmas time. If your configuration is set up for winter, you could do it tomorrow and it would be in place in Feb. After that, Mar. through July, just maintain an empty super at the top (drawn comb through late April) It may be because I'm familiar with the system, but it sounds dirt simple to me.

Walt


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

Squarepeg,
I have no actual data on production, so you put me in a slight strain. 
Before I get started, let me say that I neglected to say "per hive" in my response to Mr. Palmer. He obviously makes more total honey than we could imagine with our few hives. He may not believe that either, but that's his prerogative.

My average production over the years with CB, I would estimate to be 6 to 7 shallow supers of surplus per hive. Some years more, some years less. That comes out to be about 150 lb. Sorry, I don't think in pounds. I think in supers. 

We had one year where 'main flow' was a bust. The 80 lbs we harvested was primarily that necter that was stored during buildup. Some of the local contemporaries harvested nothing.

One year, took 2 hives to the Huntsville, AL club yard for a demonstration of CB. They made about 170 lbs. each. Supers were weighed in and out of extraction.

John Skinner, our local extension PhD, says this is a 50 to seventy pound area. That's about what I got in the early years. But in that period, we were collecting feral bees in the spring period and taking no time to avert swarms. Maybe everybody's bees swarm here.

Kevin, do me a favor, please. You know how to post pictures, and I think you know where to find the trailer pic. If you post it, I will add a description.

Walt


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

is this the one walt?

View attachment 7918


----------



## minz

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

I followed the CB to about the letter last year on one of my hives at the house. They were slow to build and I collected them from the neighbor’s cotton wood tree on June 6th. They only used one half of the hive as if they wanted only 5 frames per box. As Walt stated earlier it was a record mild year for us as well and my log recorded record high temp of 75 F for easter and 86 on May 14th. My apple bloom was only a week early (I record most of my trees but use the Gravenstien). I pulled zero pounds from that hive and drew no new foundation (recorded). If I were MP I would have tore it down and made OW nucs out of it but they moved into the shallow with brood and were saved!
I like the info from the German, I am going to study it a bit but right now I think I am going to do what Crazy Roland told me in Wisconsin last year.


----------



## rweaver7777

*Re: "liar or a fool"*



squarepeg said:


> is this the one walt?
> 
> View attachment 7918


This is freaking amazing to me! Do you have SHB where you are? How many bees are in those hives? If you have SHB how do you keep them from sliming your top supers? So many questions!!!

Rick


----------



## Flyer Jim

*Re: "liar or a fool"*



minz said:


> I think I am going to do what Crazy Roland told me in Wisconsin last year.


And that was? :kn: :scratch:


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

Not the one I had in mind, but it will do. The trailer pic had 10 colonies on it - not stacked quite that high, but it was taken 3 weeks before flow end. These two photos were taken at flow end.

The inset colony was located in Burtonsville, Md. Was spending half-time in MD seeing to the care of my parents. The 2 hive pic were here in Elkton. Don't know if you can make out the penciled legend, but the weights were not actual. Just counted shallow supers at 20 pounds each. A plugged out, 9 frame shallow holds more than that. Used the low number to adjust for possible partials at the top. It was a 'good year' in both locations and the photos reflect above average production.

If your system produces above average production, why be shy about it? Answer: people think you are stretching the truth and tune you out. That's what this thread is all about.

Walt


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

Would like to extend this thread long enough to get a description from Tim on his technique. He made some comment about production in the hundreds in post # 45. Am always interested in production exceeding mine.
A story:
A picture showed up Bee Culture, maybe 20 years ago, of a single skyscraper with 17 supers of honey in mediums. Made an appointment with the old gentleman and went over to Knoxville to meet with him. Thought I could smell nectar management in the photo. He had 2 x 4s props all the way around to keep the monster upright.

He used an all-medium configuration before It became popular and he shuffled them in the spring to accomplish what CB does. Don't remember the details now, but it seemed more labor intensive than CB.

That's why I would like to hear how Tim does it at the box level. We have a lot of folks using the all-medium config today.

Walt


----------



## minz

*Re: "liar or a fool"*



Flyer Jim said:


> And that was? :kn: :scratch:


Sounded like CR did not want in advertised in a previous thread on secrets so I will not do it either. I will say it is yet one other piece of equipment for me.


----------



## Walts-son-in-law

*Re: "liar or a fool"*



squarepeg said:


> roy, as you may know your father-in-law and i have become friends and have enjoyed sharing our experiences with each other. no need to ask anyone to clam up, for better or worse, that is what the forum is all about.
> 
> matt, well stated.
> 
> tim, welcome to beesource!
> 
> walt, please share your production averages with us, it's o.k. to brag here.


squarepeg,

My apologies to you and all others. Perhaps my last sentence was too harsh. In my defense, I have been a research engineer for over 20 years. We float theories all the time, it's the nature of our profession. However, you MUST use word like 'I think', 'perhaps', 'in my opinion', or something similar. If one of my colleagues were to make a statement and I hit him with a comment like 'bologna' I had better have proof in hand to back up my claim. If not, I would loose the respect of my colleagues and they would soon stop listening to my opinions.

Roy


----------



## Walts-son-in-law

*Re: "liar or a fool"*



squarepeg said:


> is this the one walt?
> 
> View attachment 7918


To clarify, the one Walt was looking for shows a red, flat bed trailer with 10 hives on it. If I remember correctly, I was standing off to one side, looking towards the tongue end of the trailer. I have a copy somewhere, but cannot seem to find it right now.

Roy


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

no worries roy, it's nice that you have walt's back. 

regarding that photo of the trailer, i don't remember seeing it. we found the one above by walt remembering a thread that i was able to track down with the search engine.

walt, tim ives posted this on another thread about checkerboarding at the box level:



Tim Ives said:


> Also can't use foundation only, drawn comb is needed also to entice hoarding behavior.
> 
> 3 deep, New box, drawn, new , drawn, new, drawn, drawn.


----------



## Grant

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

Not really wishing to enter the fray, I'd just like to add that I follow Walt's advice on CBing and when I do what needs to be done when it should be done, my swarming is zero. It doesn't work when I don't work.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

Thanks to all the supporters who chimed in. Not going back through the pages and pick them out. You know who you are. The only one that I know has been using the concepts for more than a decade is Drone On. Colleen has stayed in contact over the years.

Would like to close out this thread leaving last word to Mr. Palmer. I have no malice toward him - we just learned different things that are in conflict. His last word was a gem.

Walt


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "liar or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> Would like to close out this thread leaving last word to Mr. Palmer. I have no malice toward him - we just learned different things that are in conflict. His last word was a gem. Walt


Word


----------



## JRG13

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

I thought it was a deli meat personally... And I use the term meat there loosely


----------



## lazy shooter

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

This thread started out with a "baited" theme. In the middle of the thread there were some posters with beekeeping information, but the main gist of this thread has been: "my brother can beat up your brother." This thread simply brought out the supporters of two individuals.


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: "liar or a fool"*



lazy shooter said:


> This thread started out with a "baited" theme. In the middle of the thread there were some posters with beekeeping information, but the main gist of this thread has been: "my brother can beat up your brother." This thread simply brought out the supporters of two individuals.


perhaps, so let's turn it around.

what are your swarm prevention methods and what kind of success are you having?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

Standard hive management over here differs quite a lot. It goes like this:

A1) In early Spring (first pollen foraging) the broodnest is reduced to about 6-7 deep frames. All other frames are removed and tucked away for splits that are made later in the year. A follower board reduces hive volume and thus keeps the broodnest pretty warm.

Side note: I kept bees on three brood boxes and I saw the broodnest spreading throughout all the boxes. But the overall amount brood does not differ from a single. Same for the amount of bees. I did shook swarms in early Spring to compare singles versus triples and in neither of them were more bees. Just the same amount of bees. Crowded in a single or spread in a three box hive. (As mentioned above I also find the bottom box completely empty in early spring.)

A2) Before the first flow (fruit trees) two or three shallows with empty comb are given. Because the broodnest volume has been shrinked, the bees more than readily take the supers.

A3) Before the first flow stops, a comb or two of capped brood is taken from every hive and combined into a brood comb tower with or without a queen. It is called "careful bleeding". This slows swarm preparations.

A4) At the end of the main flow all swarms cells are broken down one time. If you use high bred Buckfast bees the bees won't draw swarm cells anymore.

A5) Done. Average honey production: 220 pounds per hive. (One hive consists of one deep, three shallows.)

This is a pretty easy management and you have no swarms (less than 10 % if any). It works with breeder queens.


Another standard management is (used with Carnolian bees for example, which have a slightly more tendency to swarm and which do not react to cell destruction as good):

B1) At first pollen flight reduce the broodnest as above.

B2) Super the wintered early before the first flow with whatever you have, drawn or foundation.

B3) Wait until the brood box/boxes are full of capped comb and the colony almost reaches population maximum. (Some simply wait for swarm cells, but it is safer to act before.) Mostly right in a main flow. Remove the old queen with two frames of capped brood for a split. Wait 9 days. Break all queen cells. Wait another 9 days. Break all queen cells. Give a mated young queen. Done for the year. There is no more swarming. During the 18 days of queenlessness a huge amount of nectar is stored into the hive. Bees forage like crazy if there is little brood to care for.

A variation is to break cells after 7 days except one like in the MDA splitter method and let them raise their own queen. In my experience this lowers the overall honey production due to the brood break for a month, because the young queen has to mate and fed before she can start fully laying. I also have the impression, queens lay better in the coming spring and not in their first year. But this is another topic.

Method A works very well and with little work and material involved, if you have high breed bees. Method B works well even with mongrels of all sorts.

Checkerboarding has been tried by quite a lot of people in Germany, but it didn't work out well. Even with experienced beekeepers, the reason why I didn't try it yet. (I trust those people, which I know personally and I respect their beekeeping wisdom.) Maybe details have been lost in translation or it simply doesn't work with the type of bees (most beekeepers keep Carnolians) and/or with the kind of flows we have here? Don't know.

Since method A and B are not very work intensive I am eager to listen how they compare with checkerboarding in time and material consumption and honey production per hive. Also I want to understand exactly how checkerboarding works, since I simply do not catch the idea behind it. So I may try it next Spring with some hives for a first test. For this I will post the configuration of the hives and hope for answers how to organize and manage them properly. Hopefully with the help of the inventors I will make checkerboard work. Thanks in advance.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

Also I found this on beesouce:









Is it still valid? Or are there new findings?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

Maybe timing is crucial. So lets see how the bee season goes where I live.

*February*:

- First new brood. Very small patches of brood, though.

*Beginning of March*:

- First cleansing flights (in 2013 followed by a second cold snap and a second cleansing flight at April the 6th.)

*March*:

- First drone brood. March, the 27th. (In 2013: April, 18rd)
- First nectar flow. March, the 27th. (In 2013: April, 23rd)

*April*:

- First swarm cells (cups) visible April, 6th (In 2013: April, the 22nd)
- First drones flying April, the 21st. (In 2013: May, the 5th but just a few)
- About 18,000 brood cells in 2013: April, the 22nd

*May*:

- Strong flow (main flow in 2012) May, the 8th
- First swarm May, the 20th. (2012 and 2013)

Bees swarm at around end of May here, when the first major flow ends. The dates shown are observed with colonies, that are not manipulated at all, just observed. (Fixed comb hives. No swarm preventions.)

So what do you suggest, which is the time/date to checkerboard? I usually winter in singles but I do have some hives on two deep brood boxes this winter. Would you consider the doubles better for the experiment?

Bernhard


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

If I understand correctly, end of February beginning of March (8th). Your cycles look very close to mine.


----------



## merince

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

Bernhard:

Thank you for the very detailed and informative post! I am in Zone 5, and yes, the timing of brood and flows is very close. The difference is that, although I have a flow in May (fruit bloom), the main flow is in June and the swarm preps are also mostly in June. Very interesting, though that method A is very close to what G. M. Doolittle did. I will have to work on it to see how to map the manipulations based on my flows.


----------



## AramF

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

I use only CB technique in my hives and it works. Not one swarm. The only thing that does not work for me is to have brood box full of uncured nectar or weak syrup going into the winter. Unlike Walt's area, our humidity here goes through the roof in the winter, so I need to have empty cells and capped or near capped honey to keep the moisture down. Some here only checkeboard 5 frames in the middle and that seems to accomplish the goal. 

Also, *I think *the key to an earlier comment of an empty supper vs CB super is that they use the adjacent frame to feed brood, yet keep the broodnest compact. Just empty cells require more transportation to feed larvae.

BernhardHeuvel, we had our first pollen flight on March 8 in 2013. In 10 days my Carnie queens had about 2 frames of capped brood. I checkerboarded around 24th of March it worked out just fine. As long as the family is in one box and I don't have to disturb the brood nest, I find that I am early enough. 

I checkerboarded my 5-frame April 10 packages and they did not swarm either.


----------



## Walts-son-in-law

*Re: "liar or a fool"*

This is it.


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> Mike,
> We have not had a round lately. Over due.
> Don't think I said in the OP that your statement was directed at me. This thread was just intended to apply it to me, because I DO say I can stop swarming.
> You have wasted a lot of time badgering me, when with less time you could have tried CB.
> It's of little concern to me if you never try it. But I make more honey than you do, under less favorable conditions.
> 
> Walt


Overdue? In your head.

Again...Bologna. You most certainly did imply that what I said was directed at you. I allowed you to have your fun and your say and line up your ducks in support of your theory. I've never said your nectar management theory won't prevent swarming. I do maintain that checkerboarding isn't the only successful plan. I have disagreed with your theory of swarm repro c/o date and your idea that any swarms after that time are something other than repro-swarms. 

This post was started using my name. It was started with the intention of belittling me and what I said. You took what I said in another thread out of context and used it to elevate you and your beekeeping dogma. I have photos of skyscraper hives too Walt, but won't bother posting them as you'll just find some other way to devalue what I believe to be true. Do you make more honey per colony than I do Walt? Gosh I hope so. 20 colonies is nothing but spit in the wind. How much total food do you make for your fellow human beings? How many families do you support with your work Walt?

You took what I said out of context. The original thread was about raising queen stock that wouldn't swarm. All stocks will swarm. Yes one can breed stocks that will have a lower propensity to swarm, but the swarming instinct will never be bred out of bees. Anyone who says they can is either a fool or a liar. Period.

Now, when I said that, you got your shorts in a bunch...because I said it, and used what I said to attack me. I took great delight in fantasizing about the wedgie you have, and it really got your blood pressure up when I mentioned luncheon meat, eh Walt. Whatever. 

You wanted me to have the last word?? Again, Bologna. You ended this _discussion_ a couple times already. And you and Walt's-Son-In-Law continue to add a bit more. Nice photos of skyscrapers Walt, but it doesn't mean much, really. I have seen plenty from other beekeepers who never heard of "checkerboarding" or some repro swarm c/o date theory.


----------



## mbevanz

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Michael Palmer, You the man!


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

'let the sparks fly and the chips fall where they may' (anonymous quote)

these are important and intriguing topics for discussion, my hope is that the dialogue will continue....




Michael Palmer said:


> I have disagreed with your theory of swarm repro c/o date and your idea that any swarms after that time are something other than repro-swarms.


might the difference in observations have something to do with the difference in nectar flows between tennessee and vermont? in the southeast we have 2-3 months of spring flow, 1-2 months of summer dearth, and 1-2 months of fall flow, whereas in the northeast i believe there is less interruption through the spring-summer-fall flows. it does seem counter to the bee's well being to issue a repro swarm during dearth conditions. perhaps the cut-off has something to do with that, and the smaller swarms issued at those times are more supercedure in nature. i observed queen cells in a few of my colonies at the end of may that either did not swarm or issued such a small swarm that i did not notice a drop in population, nor did i find backfilling in the brood nest in these hives.




Michael Palmer said:


> ... the swarming instinct will never be bred out of bees. Anyone who says they can is either a fool or a liar. Period.


i'm not sure i've ever heard walt make this claim, only that he was successful preventing swarming up to 100% in most seasons. i think most will agree that the swarming instinct cannot be bred out of bees.




Michael Palmer said:


> I have seen plenty from other beekeepers who never heard of "checkerboarding" or some repro swarm c/o date theory.


like most things beekeeping there are lots of variables and a plethora of approaches that work, as well as attempts to postulate hypotheses to explain observations. it all makes for good forum fodder, but beyond that these 'discussions' help the average joe like me who is passionate about learning all i can about these critters.

many thanks to all for contributing.


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "liar or a fool"*



Walts-son-in-law said:


> This is it.
> View attachment 7995


Your choice


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

>>squarepeg said...might the difference in observations have something to do with the difference in nectar flows between tennessee and vermont? in the southeast we have 2-3 months of spring flow, 1-2 months of summer dearth, and 1-2 months of fall flow, whereas in the northeast i believe there is less interruption through the spring-summer-fall flows. it does seem counter to the bee's well being to issue a repro swarm during dearth conditions. perhaps the cut-off has something to do with that, and the smaller swarms issued at those times are more supercedure in nature. i observed queen cells in a few of my colonies at the end of may that either did not swarm or issued such a small swarm that i did not notice a drop in population, nor did i find backfilling in the brood nest in these hives.<<


No, it has to do with Walt and hid dogma. Okay, a swarm that leaves before Walt's repro swarm c/o date is a reproductive swarm. What about the swarms that leave after that? Do you think that they are all tiny "supercedure" swarms? I've seen many large swarms come from strong colonies and strong multi-story nucs after Walt's date...adjusted to my area by bloom period. In fact, a strong colony on a strong flow with no overhead nectar storage will swarm. It doesn't matter if it's May, June, July, or August. So what do we call those mid to late summer swarms? Post-Repros? 



>>i'm not sure i've ever heard walt make this claim, only that he was successful preventing swarming up to 100% in most seasons. i think most will agree that the swarming instinct cannot be bred out of bees.<<


I have no doubt that checkerboarding will help prevent swarming as will any nectar management that allows the bees timely overhead nectar storage. But you've hit the nail on the head...

"He was successful at preventing swarming up to 100% in most seasons". Most seasons SP. Not all seasons...same as any other viable plan.



>>like most things beekeeping there are lots of variables and a plethora of approaches that work<<

Ya think?


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Michael Palmer said:


> In face, a strong colony on a strong flow with no overhead nectar storage will swarm. It doesn't matter if it's May, June, July, or August.


You betcha.
( I read "face" as fact)


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Bernhard,
Have not seen that sketch in a long time. It is basically correct, but there have been some changes since it showed our wintering configurations. We now use only one config.
Coming out of winter, from the bottom, we have an empty shallow of drawn comb, the deep brood chamber, and two shallows of capped honey. In stores, that's equivalent to a double deep, properly prepared in the fall. In this area, we don't need the extra shallow of honey overhead, but it insures we have a full box of capped honey in late winter to checkerboard. We only had to sacrifice that extra box of honey for the first season of config change. After that, the increased production more than compensated for the loss.
Investment in future gain.

A pollen box was added below the basic deep to improve wintering. In late winter that's the empty box of drawn comb at the bottom. During the spring buildup, when the first shallow above the deep is filled with brood by expansion, that shallow is moved below the deep. Taking advantage of colony preference for rearing brood in a deep, the pollen box is backfilled with pollen in early spring, while pollen is plentiful. The pollen in the pollen box is only filled about a half cell depth and is fully fermented - giving it a dark, ugly look. We believe it is reserved for the fall buildup to rear wintering bees - consumption of that "bee bread" starts in early August, and the box is empty going into winter. We leave it in place overwinter and it is on site for checkerboarding in the following season.

If you would like to test CB, nobody is more interested in the results than I. Would be happy to help in any way I can. We don't get many reports of it not working. 

I asked earlier if you were using "jumbos." Some areas of Europe use the larger Dadant box style. Don't remember a response to the question. CB would be difficult to apply to that type overwintering set up. And you did mention wintering in singles.

Walt


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> Taking advantage of colony preference for rearing brood in a deep,


Walt, if I put a deep on top of four mediums I will find the brood nest in the deep?


----------



## AramF

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

You will if you put a queen excluder under the box and the queen inside of it.  Sorry, could not resist.

But all else being equal, I have observed that a queen will be found in a deep box more often than a medium one. I cannot per se ask a queen if she likes it there. I cannot even ask her entourage if they force her into a deep box. But what we cannot ask we can observe, no?


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Well if you are going to use queen excluders then maybe what you observe is a result of what you do. Set your hive up with a deep on the top and four mediums on the bottom and then tell us what your observations are.
Don,t screw with the hive. Leave it alone. Just walk away.


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> In late winter that's the empty box of drawn comb at the bottom. During the spring buildup, when the first shallow above the deep is filled with brood by expansion, that shallow is moved below the deep.
> Walt


Really. I must have missed this before. The rest of the story?

You mean that after checkerboarding you have another broodnest manipulation? I thought all you had to do was checkerboard, and then super properly for the rest of the flow. You place the top brood box (shallow of brood from expansion) below the bottom brood box. The queen moves up to establish the deep as her central brood chamber. Is that correct?

This sounds just like what I do. Super early...checkerboarding is a form of early supering. Reverse brood chamber...move shallow of brood below deep chamber.

And what happens if you don't move that super of brood below the deep?


----------



## Fusion_power

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

There are indeed many ways to prevent swarming. But there are only a few ways that prevent swarming AND make an optimum crop of honey. I think this is one time I would agree that it is not possible to breed the swarming propensity out of bees, but it still makes sense to breed bees with LESS of a swarming propensity because it makes colony manipulations to prevent swarming much more effective.


----------



## AramF

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Mike,

From my reading of Walt's material the reason the shallow with brood is moved down is to artificially stretch the broodnest downward for pollen storage. After the brood is hatched, the workers start storing pollen in the bottom super, using the natural break between shallow and deep as break between pollen storage and nursery. It is not to make more room overhead for laying, as it would be the case in reversing deeps, since reversal dedicates bee energy toward moving stores around. 

The shallow that is moved below deep should be heavily populated by capped brood, so moving capped honey to the supers above should not be consequence of that reversal.

One does not have to reverse deep and shallow, this is simply done to enable pollen storage in a separate box, rather than bottom of a deep. This way the deep is wholly dedicated to raising brood, and bottom box is dedicated to pollen and bee bread making.


----------



## AramF

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Ace,

I do not use excluder, I let my bees eat their way with expansion to the very top and then I let them store honey from the top toward the bottom. I checkerboard and leave them alone, with exception of stealing capped honey and putting wet frames back for more honey. They do not swarm and I know this because I mark my queens.

The point that you wanted to demonstrate is that the location of the deep matters, so the one on top will be overlooked by a queen in favor of a medium in the middle. You are correct. But what Walt says is that the queen favors the deep (all else being equal). So in a DSS or SDS configuration she will be found in a deep more often than in shallows. Since your proposal violates all else being equal assumption and takes the case to the extreme, the results logically do not match. That's to be expected. The queen wants to be below honey, so a deep on top is not a natural habitat for a laying queen, but she will make her way there in early May if there is no flow and she is expanding her way to the top.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

AramF described the pollen box thing pretty well. Will add a few notes. Separate swarm prevention from the pollen box concept in your thinking. It is coincidental that checkerboarding and the pollen box concept came from the same source.

After a couple years of CB, and satisfied that it was reliable swarm prevention, turned my attention to wintering. We didn't lose colonies over winter except to queenlessness. Fixed that first - proper bottomboard drainage was all that was needed.

We did have about 25% of colonies emerge from winter with smaller clusters. Why?? They all looked strong in the fall. They all had the same type of environment and field forage.

We still had some double deeps - whole outyards of 12 per yard. We noticed that some CBed double deeps, were trying to store beebread in the lower deep. Not a full box, but some frames. Well, if they "want" to store pollen below, lets try to help them get it done. Tried foundation first - no help. Same with empty comb. But when we put a shallow of brood below the deep, it was reliably filled with bee bread. When the pollen box was incorporated across the board, there was a definate improvement in wintering. All colonies came through winter with consistent cluster size. Well worth the 5 minutes spent in March - 2 to 3 weeks after checkerboarding.

The third improvement was confirming backfilling of the broodnest at brood closeout in the fall. There are so many variables in that subject, we will not go into it here.

Walt


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



AramF said:


> The queen wants to be below honey, so a deep on top is not a natural habitat for a laying queen, but she will make her way there in early May if there is no flow and she is expanding her way to the top.


I don't see it that way. The colony not the queen decides and it seems natural to me that they would want a dome of honey directly overhead of the brood nest. In cool weather the bees can close off the space between solid honey frames to maintain heat for brood in a dome structure. Also the food they need to generate the heat is right there. When you checkerboard you open up the dome and remove the food from one side of the space between frames. The queen will be allowed to lay in it only if there is solid honey above. If there isn't I believe they are going to try to move honey so there is or they are going to keep going up until they reach the cover. If you put supers on too quick the bees fill the center first. If you pull two frames up from the center into the next box they will fill the empties in the bottom box first or the queen will be allowed to lay brood in these empties which means they will be filled.

Checkerboarding is a manipulation that requires perfect timing for the area the bees live in. The timing will vary from year to year. It is far from non intervention and requires access to the hives. That does not lend itself to areas that are snow bound and cold. Does it work better in Tennessee? Some people think so. Would it work better in VT, Upstate NY, and Canada? My guess is no.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



AramF said:


> So in a DSS or SDS configuration she will be found in a deep more often than in shallows.


That is not my experience. When I was changing from deeps to all mediums I had a deep on the bottom and 3 mediums on top. The brood nest moved up and never looked back. They completely ignored the deep on the bottom that was completely full of pollen. I do not see a preference on the part of the bees for a deep vs. a medium. However I will admit I am not in the hive breaking up all the burr comb on a regular basis that they decide to put between frames.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Ace 
You are right. There is not much preference for a deep over a medium. But some colonies DO show it for brooding. The preference for a deep over a shallow is much more pronounced. Seems strange in that a medium is closer to a shallow in height than a deep. We stopped using mediums in the potential broodnest (Bottom 3 feet) after just a few years. Any mediums still in inventory were used above 4 ft as honey supers. It's subtle, but it is consistent.

Your description above actually has a couple of the reasons we shifted away from mediums in the potential brood volume. First, the brood nest tends to climb away from the bottom, and secondly, the extra gaps at interbar spaces tend to restrict broodnest reduction to the bottom. (Quote: never looked back) 

The fact that the bottom deep was filled with pollen implies that they intended to recede the broodnest to the bottom and winter there. That's what happens in the wild broodnest on continuous comb. But mediums disrupted their natural instincts.

Even the basic reason for the all-medium approach does not stand up to scrutiny. The weight thing. We deliberately shifted away from the weight of a deep of honey by substituting 2 shallows of honey over the basic deep. Works very well. Will not go into all the advantages.

Walt


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "liar or a fool"*



Walts-son-in-law said:


> This is it.
> View attachment 7995


I asked Roy to find this pair of pictures in our e files and he posted it without my telling him where. Thought I might use it on the Tim Ives thread. As long as it's here, might as well add some notes:

That was an outstanding production season. The pics were taken on the 20th of may - about the middle of our spring flow. It's not over, yet. Had fractured a single supersedure cell on a colony not in view on the other side. Wanted to arrest the growing height on the near unit by moving some supers to the other side on the unit slowed by a double SS. Two partial supers can be seen set off on top of the next adjacent shorter stack. The next 3 supers down in the tall unit, complete with workers, were moved across the isle. The relief was temporary. They went on to make nearly 16 supers - counting the 3 moved with workers. But they started as a combine of two overwintered clusters. Note the two deeps at the bottom.

Coming in second on that trailer was the unit on the rear, same side. A second-year colony that made 13 supers without any help. 2nd year colonies will often store through our "lull" between Repro c/o and the start of main flow.

Walt


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Walt, concerning the deeps' size: it is a special German frame standard. 370 x 223 mm. (~14.5 x 8.77 inch) and 370 x 311 mm. (~14.5 x 12 inch).



> The fact that the bottom deep was filled with pollen implies that they intended to recede the broodnest to the bottom and winter there. That's what happens in the wild broodnest on continuous comb. But mediums disrupted their natural instincts.


Is this an observation or assumption? Can't find it in fixed comb hives with no topbars or frames whatsoever. (Comb going top to bottom of the log hive.)

I reckon it is the prevention of the broodnest becoming pollen bound that makes the difference in swarming activities. Brother Adam (Karl Kehrle) - that is what I read and hear - threw away all the pollen combs in Spring and acutally this is done when using method A described above. All pollen combs are removed in Spring when the bees forage for their first pollen. And the broodnest is restricted, to prevent too much pollen intake by the colony.

In studies it has been shown, that bees do hoard nectar when empty comb is present, the more empty comb, the more they forage for nectar. But in early Spring there is more pollen than nectar and I reckon the bees tend to hoard pollen instead of nectar when emtpy comb is present.

By giving them a shallow of empty comb below, you actually trigger pollen hoarding - and prevent the broodnest from becoming pollen bound the very same time. This might have a much more effect on swarming tendencies than the checkerboarding itself.

By restricting the broodnest as in method A, the early pollen hoarding is prevented and fresh pollen is used up much quicker, turning pollen into bees. You do the same thing but with less material/supers/combs.

Maybe nectar management turns out to be pollen management. 

Bernhard


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Bernhard,
Have considered changing the name to Stores Management. But the effects of CBing were demonstrated well before incorpoation of the pollen box.

Have a full day scheduled. Need some rest. Will get back on this ASAP.
Walt


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Of course checkerboarding does the same thing - empty drawn comb, triggering hoarding behaviour and storing of pollen. Since the queen can sidestep up and down in an artificially stretched broodnest, the effect of becoming pollen bound is prevented. (Nectar binding can be prevented by simple supering.) I reckon this is the same mechanism as in Tim's method. Lot's of comb, lots of escape possibilities for the queen.

By method A you restrict the broodnest, which restricts excessive pollen foraging in early Spring. With a super and a queen excluder you prevent the broodnest from becoming honeybound, and because the size of the broodnest is restricted with a follower board, the bees readily populate the supers, so the excluder is not much of a barrier. (Some Carnolians still tend to flood the broodnest with nectar, though.)

Just presumptions. One needs to look more deeply into the matter.

Bernhard


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

mike palmer said:

>>In fact, a strong colony on a strong flow with no overhead nectar storage will swarm. It doesn't matter if it's May, June, July, or August.<<

thanks for replying michael, and let me start here by saying that my few years of experience pales in comparison to your life long career with bees. i would also like express thanks for your 'sustainable apiary' talks and posts here, which have inspired me to raise queens and overwinter nucs.

but with regard to reproductive cut off and whether or not all you need is a strong hive on a strong flow with no overhead storage to get swarming...

i have been keeping careful records for most of my 3+ years of beekeeping. when i look back to when in the season i experienced swarming it was not spread out over three to four months but rather three to four weeks in the early part of the season, with no swarms after that except a few really small ones in the fall.

more interestingly, swarms are issuing _prior_ to what would be considered our 'main flow', which coincides with the tulip poplar bloom and is evidenced by very strong foraging and new wax production. swarms are issuing well before the colonies get to full strength and nectar availability peaks.

with regard to the availability of empty comb overhead, i had several colonies swarm this year after stopping their expansion upward even though there were supers of empty drawn comb for them to store nectar in. these colonies stopped at a functional break between boxes and created a solid honey dome on the early flows and went on to swarm.

i realize that i am only observing a dozen or so colonies and i concede that what i am seeing could be do to chance, and maybe it's a matter of location because i live relatively close to walt, but my observations are similar to his.

i.e. my bees are swarming before the heaviest flows, all within a pretty tight time frame, and the ones that don't swarm at that time don't swarm. they tend to supercede instead and fill many more boxes with bees and honey.

oldtimer describes a similar timeline in another thread, in which his bees are swarming prior to the heaviest flows. he is also is a milder climate similar to what we have here in the southeast.

my thinking is that checkerboarding the supers is one way to discourage the bees from establishing an upper limit to their working level. i'm leaving more honey this year, and i suspect that having some honey frames in the upper boxes will help draw the bees up into them. if it doesn't, and they get 'stuck' at a break, i'll move up a couple of frames they are working to the next box.

as i said michael, i have a lot of respect for you and the other veterans who are kind enough to share their experiences here. walt goes out of his way in his writings to say that his interpretation of his observations are only just his best guess, and he has openly welcomed competing hypotheses. 

it comes as no surprise to me that observations and interpretations vary from place to place and from beekeeper to beekeeper. indeed, for me it's what makes all of this so interesting.


----------



## Roland

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

The Imker wrote:

In studies it has been shown, that bees do hoard nectar when empty comb is present, the more empty comb, the more they forage for nectar.

So why make your tower hives? Remove the supers as soon as they are full. Less lifting, eh?

Walt, If you like deeps better than mediums for brood, why not go to Jumbos in the vrood chamber. The will be even less breaks in comb.

Crazy Roland


----------



## greg zechman

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

well said squarepeg...


----------



## jim lyon

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

I have been doing this long enough to have seen any number of times that while there are many things a beekeeper can do do lessen the probability of swarming the only sure things in my mind are that bees are unpredictable and the urge to reproduce is the most basic of instincts. I have no doubt that when properly done, Walt's procedures are quite effective. But then, swarming is something that I always figured I had a pretty good handle on controlling as well. Our "secret"? Young queens, lots of room overhead, and mixing in a few sheets of foundation directly above the broodnest for good measure. Seems like it worked every year.....well until this year anyway when many of our hives chose a different path and made significant contributions to the "feral" bee population of the area. . 
The only real issue I take with the kind of hive manipulations advocated in this thread (and there are many well thought out procedures here) is that this forum has a pretty high percentage of enthusiastic yet inexperienced beekeepers that may not recognize this stuff as the advanced beekeeping that it is and that it should only be undertaken by those who have mastered the basics of beekeeping.
The basics? Dont let bees run short on feed or expansion space and understand your locality, how to recognize the timing of local honey flows and how heavy they might be. How to recognize hive diseases and how you should cope with them and that you can be a successful beekeeper without ever doing any of these more advanced manipulations. 
Soooooo with that in mind, carry on. No liars or fools here.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Bernhard,
In post #108, you ask if my opinion on the pollen reserve are "observations or assumptions?" Candidly, it's some of both. The observations were made in Lang hives, and the assumption is that the observations can be considered valid for the wild hive in the tree hollow.

Walt


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

So what's the concensus? "liar or fool"? Or something else?


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Neither Mark. Walt took my quote out of context to discredit my opinion. The original post containing my quote wasn't about Walt, checkerboarding, whether or not Walt's bees ever swarm, or the repro-swarm c/o date. It was about whether or not one can raise queen that will never swarm. Of course he wouldn't mention that, would he. 

I believe Walt...who said in an earlier post in this thread, that we're overdue for a confrontation, had an agenda in his postings. Time for Mr. Wright to apologize. 

And as far as his skyscraper photos...nice photos. Nice flow. Proves one thing. 

Walt's is bigger than mine.


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



jim lyon said:


> ...swarming is something that I always figured I had a pretty good handle on controlling as well. Our "secret"? Young queens, lots of room overhead, and mixing in a few sheets of foundation directly above the broodnest for good measure. Seems like it worked every year.....well until this year anyway when many of our hives chose a different path and made significant contributions to the "feral" bee population of the area.


Exactly Jim. All swarm control works until it doesn't. Never say never, eh?


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Michael Palmer said:


> And as far as his skyscraper photos...nice photos. Nice flow. Proves one thing.
> 
> Walt's is bigger than mine.


Snapshots are just that, snap shots. I could show you photos of hives in apiaries in Chateaugay or Louisville, near Massena, had I taken photos of those hives taller than me. What would that prove? Since, as you, Michael Palmer, know, my crops are never as good as yours.

Besides, just because a hive is stacked high doesn't mean it is full of honey. If enough hives were above shoulder height, why wouldn't you extract them?


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

>>squarepeg; but with regard to reproductive cut off and whether or not all you need is a strong hive on a strong flow with no overhead storage to get swarming...

i have been keeping careful records for most of my 3+ years of beekeeping. when i look back to when in the season i experienced swarming it was not spread out over three to four months but rather three to four weeks in the early part of the season, with no swarms after that except a few really small ones in the fall.<<

Well, if the strong colonies swarmed early, why would they swarm later?

>>more interestingly, swarms are issuing _prior_ to what would be considered our 'main flow', which coincides with the tulip poplar bloom and is evidenced by very strong foraging and new wax production. swarms are issuing well before the colonies get to full strength and nectar availability peaks.<<

Well, of course. You didn't know what you were doing and didn't know how to manage your bees so they wouldn't swarm. No different that any other beginner.

>>with regard to the availability of empty comb overhead, i had several colonies swarm this year after stopping their expansion upward even though there were supers of empty drawn comb for them to store nectar in. these colonies stopped at a functional break between boxes and created a solid honey dome on the early flows and went on to swarm.<<

I don't doubt it. Did they stop short of entering the supers because of the space between the brood nest and the honey supers or because the colony wasn't populous enough to enter the supers. Swarming is a re-queening process that some stocks use to re-queen themselves. Is has nothing to do with a so-called functional break between supers.


>>i.e. my bees are swarming before the heaviest flows, all within a pretty tight time frame, and the ones that don't swarm at that time don't swarm. they tend to supercede instead and fill many more boxes with bees and honey.<<

Well certainly, some swarm readily and must be managed early. Some never swarm no matter what management method you use. And, some will swarm later in the summer on any strong flow when there isn't any overhead nectar storage room. 

And that's my point. The idea that prime swarms issuing before some contrived date are reproductive swarms, and those after are considered as something different is just false. All prime swarms are reproductive swarms...if that's what you want to call a prime swarm before Walt's special date. 

Just because in your 3+ years you haven't had prime swarms go off during a heavy flow...after the special date...doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It does, and it will if you don't keep ahead of the bees with proper supering. 

The main trigger to swarming is the backfilling of the broodnest. But, is backfilling the result of swarming preparations, or are swarming preparations the result of backfilling? I believe the later, and why I see swarms when there isn't enough overhead nectar storage room...emerging brood comb space is backfilled because there is no where else to store it. Walt believes that backfilling comes first, as an intentional procedure the bees use to initiate a reproductive swarm. I believe backfilling is caused by lack of storage room and is the trigger for swarming.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



squarepeg said:


> i'll move up a couple of frames they are working to the next box.


I think that is the crux of checkerboarding. You are breaking up the honey dome and giving more space. Up here I think it is safer to just pull two frames straight up into the next box and replace with empty comb. Continue doing that until the hive is as high as you want to go. It is a much quicker manipulation.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Michael Palmer said:


> > Walt believes that backfilling comes first, as an intentional procedure the bees use to initiate a reproductive swarm. I believe backfilling is caused by lack of storage room and is the trigger for swarming.


Two beekeepers with different beliefs, imagine that! So what's with the topic "liar or fool"? Kiss and make up.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

You guys have been busy this morning. Walt believes that backfilling is intentional because it starts at a given point in colony growth, and is not relative to flow intensity at that time. The colony deliberately leaves a fixed amount of capped honey reserve overhead to carry them through the swarm prep period. Wintered in a shallow and a deep, the colony doesn't open honey in the shallow (usually) before starting backfilling of the deep. They use the break in functional comb as the demarcation line between the honey reserve and the broodnest.

Mike does not see this in his hives where the cluster is at the top. They have consumed their reserve to survive the winter. Some northern beekeepers have to feed in late winter to sustain the colony until field forage is available.

We, collectively, have forgotten their heritage as forest dwellers. The honeybee's survival format, instincts, and activity timing are oriented to life in the extended forest. Those characteristics were selected for, long before man cleared land for his purposes. Even the fall flow is an anomaly to their instincts - not many weeds in the forest.

As that heritage applies to the question of backfilling, the colony must get survival requirements accomplished on the early-season period of tree bloom. That includes both reproduction and accumulation of winter provisions. Their format serves them well. The same backfilling that generates young bees to go with the reproductive swarm also gets a leg up on accumulation of winter stores. I can't make myself believe that it's either accidental or coincidental.

Walt


----------



## rhaldridge

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Michael Palmer said:


> Walt believes that backfilling comes first, as an intentional procedure the bees use to initiate a reproductive swarm. I believe backfilling is caused by lack of storage room and is the trigger for swarming.


What about backfilling in the fall? Is that an intentional procedure?


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Certainly.
They can't winter on empty comb. They need honey/nectar underfoot to be used as fuel to warm the cluster.
Walt


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Michael Palmer said:


> Well, if the strong colonies swarmed early, why would they swarm later?


believe it or not the strongest colonies i.e. the ones that were bigger and heavier going into winter and built up the fastest (and also had some honey left in the supers) were the ones that did not swarm. it was the smaller ones that failed to build up enough to move up into the supers. so they were too weak to build up and populate the supers yet strong enough to swarm, go figure.




Michael Palmer said:


> Well, of course. You didn't know what you were doing and didn't know how to manage your bees so they wouldn't swarm. No different that any other beginner.


guilty as charged. i was surprised by the fact it was the _dinks_ that swarmed, i just kept waiting for them to move up onto that empty comb. i must confess that i wasn't looking at the broodnest or i may have discovered swarm preps underway and could have split them. although, i'm happy to allow some swarms go into the surrounding woods hoping that they will survive and provide drones for mating.




Michael Palmer said:


> I don't doubt it. Did they stop short of entering the supers because of the space between the brood nest and the honey supers or because the colony wasn't populous enough to enter the supers. Swarming is a re-queening process that some stocks use to re-queen themselves. Is has nothing to do with a so-called functional break between supers.


well they crowded that space below the break enough to swarm, and totally ignored the empty comb above the break. these bees are from feral survivor stock and could very well have strong swarm tendencies. some of those dinks kicked out four swarms before they were through. good for the meta-population, bad for the beekeeper. i was fortunate to catch several of them. they drew out a good bit of comb for me and gave a little honey to harvest, plus they provided splits to put my grafted queens in. i'm using 'didn't swarm' as one of my main criteria for selecting mother queens.




Michael Palmer said:


> Well certainly, some swarm readily and must be managed early. Some never swarm no matter what management method you use. And, some will swarm later in the summer on any strong flow when there isn't any overhead nectar storage room.


all of my colonies are from similar stock. i am encouraged that i was able to keep about half of them from swarming this year. with the lessons learned, with some genetic selection/deselection, with the additional drawn comb i gained this year, and with the extra honey i'm leaving i hope to do better next year and in the years to come.



Michael Palmer said:


> And that's my point. The idea that prime swarms issuing before some contrived date are reproductive swarms, and those after are considered as something different is just false. All prime swarms are reproductive swarms...if that's what you want to call a prime swarm before Walt's special date.
> 
> Just because in your 3+ years you haven't had prime swarms go off during a heavy flow...after the special date...doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It does, and it will if you don't keep ahead of the bees with proper supering.


could be, time will tell, and i'm not so naïve to think that there are not going to be exceptions to the rule. after all the bees have probably not read walt's insightful manuscript, but so far my observations have been closely agreeing with the timeline presented there. 



Michael Palmer said:


> The main trigger to swarming is the backfilling of the broodnest. But, is backfilling the result of swarming preparations, or are swarming preparations the result of backfilling? I believe the later, and why I see swarms when there isn't enough overhead nectar storage room...emerging brood comb space is backfilled because there is no where else to store it. Walt believes that backfilling comes first, as an intentional procedure the bees use to initiate a reproductive swarm. I believe backfilling is caused by lack of storage room and is the trigger for swarming.


really good question, kind of a chicken and egg thing. after reversing deeps michael, do you sometimes have colonies that stop at the top of the second deep and ignore the first medium of empty comb that then go on to swarm?

many thanks for taking the time, i appreciate your replies.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Bernhard,
The reason I wanted to know about your deeps was the deeper they are, the more likely they are to have a band of capped honey at the top. The follow up question is do those 12 inch deeps sometimes have a band of capped honey all the way across the top? I would expect them to, if the colony was situated in a single deep to prepare for winter.
Assuming a band of honey across the top of the deep, it would be difficult to break up that band of honey with a super above.

Most colonies seem to percieve the top of their honey as the top of their residence cavity. It's so prevalent in some colonies in the early season that even in a loose-cluster period, there are no bees patrolling above the honey in an added empty super. That trait seems to be rooted in their instincts developed for the tree hollow where the top of their honey IS the top of the cavity.

Reading the steps in your spring management, my first thought was that you are inducing a "mode" change. We have described the mode changes with colony age in years.
1st year: Objective: Build enough comb and stores for wintering. Building an adequate size brood nest is top priority. Reproduction not on the agenda.
3rd year, and subsequent: Reproduce in early season while protecting existing colony survival.
2nd year: Have the flexibility to either complete establishment or perform as established.
Two distinct varients: early supersedure and early wax making capability.
The over-simplifications above make a world of difference in worker duties to meet the season objectives.

Mike P. is correct in his assertion that reproductive swarms can come after the normal swarm season. The bees have a long list of contingency plans or work-arounds. Back up plans A, B, C.....for more than just reproduction. Some can handle almost anything Mother Nature throws at them. I don't see that as a good reason to reject the NORMAL process. Knowing the normal process can help you plan your management.

Where I was headed with the above tangent was that I think CB taps one of those latent contingency plans from the past. Why the extra strong colonies do not swarm is still a mystery to me. My best guess is that somewhere in their ancestry, they selected for suvival in a circumstance similar to checkerboarding. I don't need to know what that circumstance was.

Walt


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



> have a band of capped honey all the way across the top?
> difficult to break up that band of honey with a super above.


Well, that depends. If you throw out all the combs that are not populated in early spring, narrow the hive with a follower board, you sort of pressing the Bien up. In a Warré hive this is a build-in feature without follower board. You only have eight combs in a Warré and the combs are rather small in length.



> 1st year: ...Reproduction not on the agenda.


There are lots of swarms here that swarm again in their very first year. We even have a name for such swarms in German.



> Two distinct varients: early supersedure and early wax making capability.


It is a pitty, that you can't read a German book written in 1905, which explains how the processes in a hive are driven by broodfood/Gelee royale. It does make a lot of sense what the author is writing about young bees and the need for those bees to feed brood in order to get rid of their food sap (Futtersaft in German) that is produced by their glands. And how brood feeding, drone raising and comb building are valves for their pressure. That pretty much explains a lot, including swarms in year one.

In that book "Der Bien und seine Zucht" by Gerstung, it is described that you can take one or two combs of capped brood and replace them with open brood combs from another hive, you can lower swarming tendencies that just started. From my experience it works pretty well and it also fits into the temperature related brood activity like shown in another thread. (Brood/bees relation.)

(Side note: in that book the MDA-splitter method is described as well, but without the on the spot queen rearing.)



> NORMAL process. Knowing the normal process can help you plan your management.





> CB taps one of those latent contingency plans from the past.


I reckon there is no such a "plan", which of course I understand just as a descriptive word for the processes taking place. I reckon the deep connection of the Bien to the outside world is by outside temperatures, which not only drives flight activities but also restricts brood cluster size in early Spring. Temperature is the main key for the understanding of the processes inside the hive and how the bees tune with the outside world. Plants and flowers depend on temperatures, too, and through outside temperatures all the natural processes organize themself and make a well organized concert.

I also bees are like humans a bit. Think of yourself foraging for walnuts or so. You easily get into the "squirrel mode" and you start hoarding like crazy. I do have a garden and I always get into that squirrel mode and overproduce where there is an opportunity to do so. Hoarding what I can get hold of.

Bees are not much different. Bees fly like crazy when there is a flow. In early Spring there is a lot of pollen and less nectar. So they hoard a lot of pollen. Especially if there are empty cells available.

Now, in nature the bees swarm with a certain number of bees, all well prepared (more or less) with provisions. The number of bees in that swarm define the number of cells that swarm builds initially. So the initial nest size is perfectly synchronized with the swarm size. The rest of the year the growth of the bees' nest is defined again by the number of bees in that colony, which of course is a perfect picture of the fertility of the queen.

Bottom line: nest size and comb size is perfectly tuned to each other.

The same is true for the brood to comb ratio. The first patch of brood is surrounded with a ring of pollen. The young bees emerging are eating up that pollen and by doing so, they free and clean and warm the cells for the queen to lay eggs into them. Perfectly tuned!

Now, modern hives are somewhat misshaped. The width of the combs provoke the bees to store nectar and pollen to the sides of that comb. While nectar is shifted around in the hive easily, pollen doesn't get shifted. It has to be eaten up by young bees. Bees prefer fresh pollen over old pollen.

In a modern hive bees tend to store too much pollen in early Spring which disrupts the development of the broodnest and young bees do not find enough acceptors for their food sap. They start to excrete wax plates and do start building comb as they start drone comb. Drones are a good sink for the too much food sap in a hive. Once this sink is full, the bees start "small hives" within the colony, means: queen cells. Queen cells also use up a lot of food sap.

So the management of the bees by the beekeeper is best achieved if you think in food sap and it's path through the hive. Just a try to figure it: 100 emerging bees produce food sap for let's say 500 larvae. 500 emerging bees produce food sap for 2,500 larvae. 2,500 for 12,500; 12,500 for 62,500...

It's exponential character points out, that there has to be an end to that growth somewhere, something has to happen!

First they try get rid of it by wax making, then by drone raising, by queen raising and finally by swarming and the founding of a completely new nest. Swarm bees build best. For a reason.

The only way to stop swarming is to add more acceptors (young brood), remove young bees/sap producers (capped brood, about to emerge), reduce the colony's growth by the removal of the queen, or to let them build a lot of comb.

(Another but rather poor possibility would be to let the bees starve, by reducing the pollen and nectar income. And in fact, pollen trapping for instance reduces swarming tendencies a little.)

Most certainly there are a lot of ways to achieve the above, managing the food sap, but of course some are more material+labour intensive, more disruptive than others. With a deep understanding of the processes you will find a good way to produce optimal honey harvests, which might be not the highest yields possible, but the most economical and efficient. Thus sustainable.

Sorry for the long post.

Bernhard


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> it would be difficult to break up that band of honey with a super above.


Not when your equipment is all the same size.


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Ace, part of the problem would be that the brood nest really should not be messed with. when the band of honey and the brood are on the same frame it presents some undesirable issues. Moving a frame or two of brood up in itself can trigger the forming of queen cells. So some care would have to be taken in the selection of the frames to be moved. I also believe that at the very best you have then removed those frames from a somewhat orchestrated system set up to tend for that brood. The bees decided how to configure the nest. I consider it extremely disruptive to mess with that. Keep in mind this may happening in late winter or very early spring. keeping brood warm is still very much of an issue. For me this past spring it would have been the first week of March. That happens to still be winter according to the calendar.

IN this case I have found the additional side expansion of the brood nest to be helpful.

Typically any brood nest has 2 frames of honey at it's outer edges. I tend to take those two frames and move them up then place two fraems of either foundation or drawn comb in their place. depending on the brood nest those frames may be place in the 2 and 9 position with the frames that had been in those spaces being moved to the outer edges. This still allows empty space to be placed near the nest breaks the honey cap at the top of the nest and still does not disrupt the placement of brood. In a brood frame with a pollen and honey cap I consider the food source for that brood is on that frame so I am not concerned with where I move the rest of the honey to. I also found that moving up frames of brood later results in frames of honey with patches of pollen left in them.

As for Micheal's claim that any Data is "Contrived". I am interested in a much more thorough explanation of just what has been contrived. The observations have in fact been made and no influence was exerted to cause them. I agree that the interpretation of those behaviors are very likely to not be accurate. but that is the nature of interpretation. As Walt mentioned earlier though. the why is not nearly as important as the result. It is not necessary to accurately know why bees will delay swarming if given space. it is only important to know that they will. I also do not agree with your 100% prevention criteria. I consider the prevention of one swarm as some level of effectiveness. 90% prevention is another. I also do not by that you where miss quoted. did you or did you not say swarming cannot be prevented? And if so did you say it based upon the requirement that swarms are prevented to 100%? Including when the method has been performed poorly? Including when a given method has not been performed at all bu merely claimed to have been? You support keeping nucs. I have one out of 11 that is doing poorly and is not likely to survive winter. So I now claim your methods as unreliable and in fact yo can't keep bees over winter in nucs. And I base that claim upon the criteria you seem to have on the swarming issue. that if 100% of all nucs cannot be over wintered regardless of how poorly I managed them. then the method does not work.


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

When manipulating combs, in an attempt to prevent swarming, does anyone scratch capped honey to encourage the bees to work it to clear a path to open comb?


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Daniel Y said:


> Ace, part of the problem would be that the brood nest really should not be messed with.


Well that pretty much puts the kabosh to beekeeping. I believe that a honey bee colony is a super organism and any manipulation you do to such organism is an intervention and effects the colony.

Yes, you don't want to go into the brood nest area in the dead of winter but as a swarm prevention in the spring after you have already reconfigured the hive, pulling the two center frames up into and empty box to break up the honey cap (assuming there is one) creates more space in the brood chamber and encourages the bees to fill the box above. Cold areas don't have a honey cap in the spring unless you walked away and the bees went into winter with three full boxes of honey on top.


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Ace, Okay quit beekeeping. I really don't care if you decide what I said meant you can't touch your hive at all. I don't think what I wrote is all that hard to understand and if you are incapable of doing so I really am not interested in getting it sorted out for you.


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Daniel Y said:


> As for Micheal's claim that any Data is "Contrived".


Data? What data? The repro swarm c/o date is contrived in my opinion. Lots of prime swarm come off after that date, there is no data that supports that theory, so it is contrived.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Daniel Y said:


> I don't think what I wrote is all that hard to understand and if you are incapable of doing so I really am not interested in getting it sorted out for you.


I don't think you understood my point. Anything that you do to the hive, especially if it is effective in changing the natural instinct of the bees to multiply is a serious intervention. If it were not it would not work. I do intervene to try to prevent swarming.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Bernhard,
That's certainly an interesting interpretation of function of the jelly in swarm impetus. Is it OK if I believe that it is not the controlling influence? It may be entirely accurate but still be coincidental. I believe the steps to swarm commit are controlled by instinct. You are right about my use of the word "plan". I more often use the word format for a description of steps to swarm commit.

Our PhDs are sure that all the operational activities in the hive are controlled by pheromones. That will not stand up to scrutiny, either. At some point in the process, a colony-level DECISION must be made. That can happen overnight. The available pheromones didn't change that fast.

The instincts of the social insect have to be more complex, but complexity is not unique to honeybees. One of my favorites is the lowly mud dauber. They instinctively "know" where to look for spiders to feed their young. And they make mud in the dry season by going to a reliable water source, taking on water, going to suitable soil for their nest, and making the mud. Note that there are no pheromones at the water source or the patch of soil. (Guessing)

Walt


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Michael Palmer said:


> Data? What data? The repro swarm c/o date is contrived in my opinion. Lots of prime swarm come off after that date, there is no data that supports that theory, so it is contrived.


I cannot find it now but I could swear I read where you said you are "sick of the contrived Data".
As for the Date. Walt admits repeatedly that he has made up names to call the events observed. That does not mean those names are accurate but the observation where made and the bees did behave in a certain fashion, Repeatedly. My very first comment after reading Walts book was to say i do not think Walt has teh cause and effect correct. That is simply because cause and effect is extremely difficult to get right once much less an entire succession of them. Btu I do not question He has observed what He has observed. As he has point out in this thread alone. The why is not really that important. There is no need to know the why if we observe that the behavior on fact happens.

For example I think bees gather nectar an make honey out of boredom and it has nothing to do with derths, winter survival or anything else. What does it matter why they do it? they do it and few would argue that point.

I don't buy your 100% success criteria either. Does Walt reduce the swarming in his bees with his methods? Maybe you are right and their really is no cut of to Repro swarming. I just have to wonder why my bees are not non stop swarming then.

Why did my hive swarm when they had room to store a couple of hundred lbs of nectar? They still had a full medium for additional bees so they where not crowded. As far as I can tell Walt would say it was because his methods do not work if the bees are given foundation. foundation was all I had to give them. And guess what, it didn't work. I woudl say that for three other hives it did but those where also first year colonies that where building up from nucs. so to many other factors involved to evaluate Walts methods in accordance with those hives. I hope to have 8 second year hives next spring and will be able to see more.

Ace, All I can say is I did not make my comment based upon your definition of disturbance. You can either comprehend what I said or you can't. There are maybe 7 frames at most in a spring hive you should not touch. figure it out.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Daniel Y said:


> There are maybe 7 frames at most in a spring hive you should not touch. figure it out.


So everyone should stop doing splits? How did you expand your apiary? Maybe you need to figure something out.


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

I don't know which ones those are either. What are you talking about DanielY?


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Mark, The entire conversation started about expanding a brood nest and my comment about not disturbing the brood nest by moving frames with brood in them but add space next to the nest.

Ace considers even opening the hive a disturbance of the brood nest. So I suppose the method I described will not work for him. What I pointed out is that I do not consider opening of the hive a disturbance of the brood nest and I am not accepting his definition of disturbance.

Make the manipulations without disturbing the brood nest and I defined disturbance as don't move frames of brood. And I don't care if you agree with my definition of disturbance. Can you figure out which frames have brood and then not move them? I have my doubts.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Daniel Y said:


> Ace considers even opening the hive a disturbance of the brood nest.


That is how my words are coming across to you but that is not want I said. Opening the hive is a disturbance of the hive as it is a super organism.
Checkerboarding as I have read in the pamphlet, is a manipulation of the honey frames to encourage the expansion of the brood nest. Does it matter that you are just moving honey frames if your intention is to affect the brood nest? I cannot envision any workable manipulation that would effectively curtail swarming that does not affect the brood nest even if you don't move brood.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*









The attached chart will be discussed after a short break. I will initiate a new post.

Walt


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

The above chart is extracted from my presentation handouts to explain the increased honey production of checkerboarding. (The manuscript has not been updated to include this info.)

Starting at the bottom of the chart, our seasonal field forage colony support is provided for reference. It does not look like a scale hive weight change record because the weather effects have been removed. No giant peaks and valleys. The "flows" have been truncated at the point in forage availability where all the available foragers in a given colony can be sent to the field with the prospect of gain for the trip. Note that during the mid summer dearth, some forage is normally available. A patch of something here and there that they like, but not enough to exceed colony feed requirements. Wax making stops when incoming nectar drops below colony feed needs. To divert feed nectar to make wax would be quite inefficent - the bees are efficiency experts, and protecting accumulated stores is mandatory.

The relationship between "flows" and wax-making is somewhat garbled. The general perception is that wax making is an indication of "main flow." We do not see that as true. There are times in the season when there is plenty of field nectar and the bees are NOT making new wax. And conversely, times when there is less field nectar and they do make new wax. Not a popular opinion, but some examples might help make the point. We believe that it is a function of colony objectives of the period and whether or not the incoming nectar exceeds colony feed requirements. The dates on the chart are for my area. As we move north from here, the dates will slide to later on the calendar for the spring "flow", and earlier for the fall "flow." Shorter growing season.

Our spring forage starts in early Feb. and runs continuously to early June, peaking with black locust and the overlapping tulip popular. Locally, overwintered, established colonies are not making wax or storing overhead for black locust, but doing both for tulip popular. This in spite of more BL than TP in our wooded areas. My conclusion is that the new wax of main flow is a function of colony internal operations and not nectar availability. Just preceding the BL bloom period is the prime reproductive swarm issue period. Not an accident that the repro swarm has a wealth of forage to get started on establishment. Colony timing for repro swarm issue is about last frost of the spring season, and they are very good at making it happen on time. Here, that's normally about the first week of April. They have had ample nectar to support backfilling of the broodnest (redbud) in swarm preps, but any wax makers generated are intended to go with the offspring swarm.

All the wax makers generated in swarm preps do not leave with the repro swarm. Those left behind dispose of their wax holdings to prepare for a job change. This temporary new wax appearance is treated in the old literature as the "early flow." It only lasts for a few days, and then the new wax of "main flow" comes a week or two later. That's my interpretation of what I see, and I'm sticking with it against all doubters.

In recent years the fall "flow" has failed to materialize here. No wax making in the fall. Incoming pollen and nectar is obvious, but apparently does not exceed colony feed requirements. Backfilling of the broodnest at closeout has been iffy. In the 1990s, winter preps were more reliable, and most got the broodnest properly backfilled. Only remember two seasons when maybe 30% of colonies needed fall feeding. At this time, it does not look like it's going to get better soon.

Spent too much time on field forage - bottom line on the chart. Will have to come back to the chart when I have more time.

Walt


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

playing catch up here after being away from the computer...

walt, is the y axis representing brood volume, showing how far up in the stack that the broodnest gets, or both?

i.e. did you observe brood volume peaking in mid-march in your double deeps vs. early april with the single deep and checkerboarded shallows? and did you observe twice the brood nest size at peak with checkerboarding vs. double deeps?


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

squarepeg,
Yes to the questions. When the undisturbed colony reaches max broodnest expansion, backfilling starts. Saving the reserve of capped honey, if they have one. In the double deep, the arch of capped honey is about half the volume, and the arc of the broodnest expansion dome is in the lower center of the upper deep.

In the deep/shallow config expansion and backfilling is all done in the deep - saving the full shallow of capped honey as the reserve in most seasons, locally.

A colony with field forage support and periodic flying weather can about double the brood volume for each brood cycle. The doubling effect is not shown on the chart - drawn with straight lines for my convenience. The peak in brood volume shown for the undisturbed colonies in mid March is an average start of backfilling here. If you let them start backfilling on their schedule, you will get less population for main flow. You will not recover the lost brood volume of the backfilled broodnest. The more brood volume you lose to backfilling, the less honey you get.

The extra honey production of checkerboarding comes from the effects of increasing brood volume for an extra brood cycle. (Yes, approximately twice the peak of the swarming colony.) Main flow starts with, on average, 6 to 7 feet of concentrated bees, including 2 supers of nectar stored in the buildup. Twice the height of standard management.

Not shown in this version of the chart is the timing of reproductive swarm cut off or the start of main flow. Repro c/o is the end of the first week of April, and three weeks later, May 1 is the start of main flow. The CBed colonies change from broodnest expansion to reduction at repro c/o.

Walt


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

understood walt, many thanks.


----------



## AramF

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Walt,

THinking more about your system. So basically the key to backfilling is when they reach the honey reserve overhead. 
Assume one does not checkerboard. Assume they reached the reserve and begin to backfill. Assume there is a large number of boxes of drawn frames of empty comb added under the broodnest. So they backfill, but the queen can go lower and lower to lay in the empty cells. How would they react to that? Should this not defer swarms for the rest of the season too?

Basically I am trying to draw a difference between destruction of honey reserve overhead and adding empty drawn frame over the checkerboarded hive, vs. leave a minimal reserve over head and instead add empty comb under the broodnest? I suppose I always envision swarming inpulse activated by nectar pressing from the top to the bottom, and brood next collapsing under the pressure of fixed bottom. What if the bottom became a variable, intead of a constant position.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Have you thought about the bees plugging the bottom box with pollen and then you put an empty one under that. Will they move the pollen? Will they go in the new bottom box?


----------



## AramF

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

That actually did cross my mind, but I figured that "plugging" woudl happen a little later, not in the early spring. THat early it woudl be mostly devoid of pollen which was eaten last fall to raise winter bees.


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



AramF said:


> Walt,
> 
> THinking more about your system. So basically the key to backfilling is when they reach the honey reserve overhead.
> So they backfill, but the queen can go lower and lower to lay in the empty cells. How would they react to that? Should this not defer swarms for the rest of the season too?
> 
> Basically I am trying to draw a difference between destruction of honey reserve overhead and adding empty drawn frame over the checkerboarded hive, vs. leave a minimal reserve over head and instead add empty comb under the broodnest? I suppose I always envision swarming inpulse activated by nectar pressing from the top to the bottom, and brood next collapsing under the pressure of fixed bottom. What if the bottom became a variable, intead of a constant position.


I cannot say to much about the variable bottom thinking. other than I think it is game over at that point. Here is why.

Backfilling is not so much top to bottom and is not even close to "Filling" they put a drop of nectar in every cell of the hive and do it in lightening speed. they simply render all cells unsuitable for laying an egg.

Including back filling in the entire description of the method is a bit light including that all goes black in the description of the life of a light bulb. It only serves to let you know it is over. Same with back filling. if you find it in your hive, it is over. The queen has booked her flight and has her bags packed. If she is not gone already.

One thing I did notice. the emptying of comb up to the backfilling was definitely not due to lack of nectar to forage for. in fact bees where filling comb right next to cells they emptied all at the same time. When the bees wanted the cells filled. they filled them and they did it in 3 days. There was no urgency to locate nectar when they wanted it.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

A F,
Have not tried adding space below the broodnest. And will not guess at the results. A couple of observatiions that would keep me from trying that approach. Extra work, and the trend of the colony to add honey overhead to grow into by heat rise in the following winter. Am not sure they would even push the broodnest downward from the top and put brood in the comb added below.

There is one circumstance where they will grow the broodnest downward. In late winter, if they have the broodnest jammed against the cover. The thrust of late winter is reproduction. To expand the nest and acquire the population needed to divide the colony with a repro swarm, they must grow downward - and they will. They do it the same way they expand upward into the reversed empty deep - first putting nectar there.

At other times, they are reluctant to store nectar below the broodnest.

D Y,
Nice piece of detective work there. In the swarm prep period, field forage is coming up on the spring peak. They have enough foragers for 2 colonies and are NOT making wax. They are rearing the young bees needed to go with the swarm. It would be beneficial to have more beekeepers that recognize that there is little association between field nectar availability and "main flow."

Walt


----------



## TalonRedding

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

To calm things a bit, Michael and Walt both have probably forgotten more about bees than I will ever know. I am glad that both of them share their knowledge here. I am typing this while looking at a binder of beekeeping material that I have put together. I have notes from Michael's presentations on youtube as well as notes and ABJ articles by Walt that I have printed out that are contained in the binder. I have taken no telling how many hours of my time to watch presentations and read articles by both of them. Both have been great mentors. Here is the kicker..... I have NEVER met one of them personally. Now, that's saying something, and I think they should consider that there are thousands who can say the same. 
Both have a legacy here and around the country with many, many Beekeepers, and if they want to tarnish that, well....it's up to them. 
Michael, Walt......... I really appreciate your contributions. Like I said, I have spent many hours jotting down notes from both of you. I'm sure others have as well. Both of you are great Beekeepers in my book. Hats off to both of you!


----------



## sqkcrk

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Seems like royalties as well as credit may be due when you give your presentations. 

I have known Michael first hand for more than 20 years. He shares what he knows and has experienced but doesn't suffer foolishness for very long. Nor should he have to. Walt I don't know. Maybe he's the same. Maybe that the source of friction if there is any.


----------



## Barry

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

There is no friction, time to move on!


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

I feel obligated to defend an observation that is a tough sell and accepted by a limited few - that of the "reproductive swarm cut off" (Repro c/o) period of the spring flow. One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later. And, the fact that the cut-off can be followed by a reproductive swarm up to a month or more after cut-off. Swarm queen cell developement will often delay swarm issue for a couple of weeks and bad flying weather can extend the issue delay for a longer period. Repro c/o is colony decision time. If they have not started swarm cells, at that point, reproduction is cancelled for this spring season. It's time to reorganize for wintering honey storage. If swarm cells have been started by decision day, the work force continues the processes through swarm issue.

We see repro c/o as a survival action to protect the existing colony. Although reproduction is the primary thrust of early season colonies, survival of the existing colony has priority over reproduction. In other words, reproduction can not be allowed to jeopardize survival of the existing colony. The odds of survival of the existing established colony far exceed the odds of survival of a repro swarm. Better to abandon swarm ambition than to push to swarm at the expense of the established. (Potential parent colony)

There is a major change of the make-up of the existing colony workforce at repro c/o. In late winter when the motivation is reproduction, the activities are oriented to generating the young bees to populate the swarm. The surge in broodnest expansion, and the quick reduction in brood volume by backfilling are specifically oriented to generating those young bees to leave with the repro swarm. The swarm must have a sizable cadre of wax makers to have a chance at establishment in a new location.

At repro c/o, the established colony must revise the workforce make-up to gather, pre-dry, extend cell depth, and cap honey. They have not needed these workers through the swarm prep period. When the workforce is restructured, they are ready to store honey at efficient rates - known in some circles as "main flow." They make these personnel changes during a two to three week period following repro c/o. Since they are not generally storing overhead during this period, we refer to it as the (storage) lull.

Those of you who "don't believe" my interpretation of the internal operations are making it tougher on yourselves. If you know when to expect repro c/o, it simplifies spring management. Just knowing when you are out of the woods on reproductive swarming is a work-saver.

Walt


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> I feel obligated to defend an observation that is a tough sell and accepted by a limited few - that of the "reproductive swarm cut off" (Repro c/o) period of the spring flow. One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later.
> 
> Those of you who "don't believe" my interpretation of the internal operations are making it tougher on yourselves. If you know when to expect repro c/o, it simplifies spring management. Just knowing when you are out of the woods on reproductive swarming is a work-saver.
> 
> Walt


I assume this post was directed at me, and you know I'm going to answer you Mr Wright. If you really want to have a discussion, or a debate, then let's but keep it civil, maybe Barry won't delete the replies this time. I for one am not in the mood for a fight...not now or ever. 

But, since you keep bringing it up, and re-activating this thread that you started, let me ask you...

You said..."One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later."

What kinds of swarms would those be Walt? The ones that issue on the main flow or the fall flow? The..."we ran out of room and we bumped up against the limits of the capacity of our cavity just like we did in the spring when we bump up against a honey dome or the limits of our cavity cuz we live in a tree and no one has supered us or checkerboarded us" kind of swarm?

Are they really different? Why because you say they are? To me they are no different. Same as an earlier swarm, the bees ran out of overhead nectar storage...either because there was what you call a honey dome or they hit the top of their cavity...both of which lead to backfilling of the broodnest...which leads to swarm preparations...not the other way around. Doesn't matter if it's May or June or July or August.

Swarms in July ain't worth a fly, but they still swarm don't they. And in August. And sometimes September. But those don't count as what you call a repro swarm because they're different? 

You said.."Just knowing when you are out of the woods on reproductive swarming is a work-saver."

Were the colonies that swarmed in July and August "out of the woods"?


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Mike,
Am pleased that you selected later swarms as the exception that disproves the rule. I don't see that as valid.

The academic community has been puzzled by fall swarms, forever. The fall swarm doesn't have a prayer of attaining full establishment in the remaining forage available, but I conclude that those fall swarms are normal. You just have to understand the honeybee natural instincts.

We opened a thread on the tendency of beekeepers to ignore the natural instincts of these forest creatures. (Need to get back to that thread with some "for instances.") As reported on that thread, the honey bee's instincts are built on survival in the extended forests of past eons. They must accomplish reproduction on the early-season period of tree bloom. Availability of pollen in late winter stimulates broodnest expansion as the first phase of swarm ambition. And they have limited weeds in the forest to generate a fall flow. It does not surprise me that a strong pollen flow in early fall stimulates swarm ambition in their instincts. The bees have no way of knowing that the strong fall flow will end abruptly with frost/freeze.

Not that it matters, but we see almost no fall swarms here in Dixie. The long midsummer dearth reduces population to a point that the colony does not have time to build to swarm strength on the fall flow.

May I use your exception as a "for instance" on the instinct thread?

Walt


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> fall swarms are normal.


All beekeeping is local. As are the bees. 



wcubed said:


> forest creatures...extended forests of past eons.


Don't know where this myth of a forest creature comes from? All I know is, that all the honeybee genetics originated in Africa and the Middle East. Can't find extended forests there. And in fact: there has been an extended wood in Europe, but: Europe never has been fully covered with woodland, except a couple of million years ago, when there were rainforests all over Europe...

The woods always have been patchy over here. 

And all I know about bees is: put them into the shade of the woods and they go into a steep decline. Bees need sun and lots of herbal flowers which do not grow in a deep wood neither. I know, that woods have all those fallen trees that rip a hole into that canopy of trees, allowing sun enter the below story.

We have only two places in Germany with pristine forest. I have been there and can't imagine that bees would thrive in those forests. 

Is the honeybee really a forest creature? Why exactly? 




wcubed said:


> The bees have no way of knowing that the strong fall flow will end abruptly with frost/freeze.


Of course they sense it. I see a very different behaviour after the summer solstice and I also know there is a deep connection to the daily maximum temperature. But the length of daylight they note very well. So they sort of sense it coming. And one has to consider, that bees maintain their own environment within their hive, so they do not fully depend on outside conditions.

Although I am very interested in the checkerboarding discussion, I do not find it a work saver. Why is that exactly? 

I see lots of ressources used: multiple supers, drawn combs. One has to winter on honey only, or the fresh honey get mixed up with winter food (syrup). The towers cannot be transported easily, which has to be done in many locations. And the conventional swarm prevention does require the checking of the hive for swarm cells only for three times maximum. That is not too much work. Unless you don't fiddle with your bees. (Some tend to...)

There is a reason why so many beekeepers around the World do it exactly that way. I also ask myself, how the checkerboarding method does differ from other manipulations that "break" the honey dome overhead the broodnest?

Doesn't it also depend on the strain of bee you use? There are bees like the Buckfast which store nectar/honey distant from the broodnest, whereas Carnolians for example, store honey close to the broodnest only. Backfilling of the broodnest occurs in Carnolian bees much more often. Hence the tendency to swarm.


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

wcubed says....Mike,
Am pleased that you selected later swarms as the exception that disproves the rule. I don't see that as valid.<<

What rule Walt? Please spell it out....I chose "later" swarms because you say, " One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later." What kind of swarms are those please, if you don't mind? And what instigates these "later" swarms? 

>>The academic community has been puzzled by fall swarms, forever. The fall swarm doesn't have a prayer of attaining full establishment in the remaining forage available, but I conclude that those fall swarms are normal. You just have to understand the honeybee natural instincts.<<

There you go again about the academic community who, you claim, don't understand the honeybee's natural instincts. I agree that fall swarms are "normal", and they swarm for the same reason as your "reproductive" swarms. 


>>It does not surprise me that a strong pollen flow in early fall stimulates swarm ambition in their instincts. The bees have no way of knowing that the strong fall flow will end abruptly with frost/freeze.<<

So why do you think that they have any way of knowing that the earlier flows will continue? To me, what you're saying, is that they're all the same.

>>Not that it matters, but we see almost no fall swarms here in Dixie. The long midsummer dearth reduces population to a point that the colony does not have time to build to swarm strength on the fall flow.<<

Well, if you have no flow, why would you expect to see swarming?

>>May I use your exception as a "for instance" on the instinct thread?<<

Not sure how you plan on using my "exception". Use it right here Walt. Don't bury it in another thread. You say I believe there is an exception to your rule? No, that's what you're saying. I'm saying they're all the same. I see swarms from the end of the dandelion/fruit bloom, through the main flow. So do you. You checkerboard and super properly, and what does that do. It allows the bees overhead nectar storage, and eliminates the competition between brood rearing and nectar storage. You checkerboard and super, and lately I see you have added a reversal. I super and reverse and super. Both accomplish the same ends. 

If the beekeeper doesn't super properly to handle the nectar flow, whether it be early season, main flow, or fall flow, swarms will issue. You claim they are different, but then say they are normal. Of course they're normal. They're all swarming for the same treason. They have no room for nectar storage, so it goes into the only comb space available...where brood has recently emerged. When nectar remains in the broodnest, and can't be moved out and up, I believe that's the main trigger for reproductive swarming. I believe backfilling is a result of limited nectar storage, not something done by the bees to instigate swarming. 

>Not that it matters, but we see almost no fall swarms here in Dixie. The long midsummer dearth reduces population to a point that the colony does not have time to build to swarm strength on the fall flow.<<

Well, I would say that this supports what I am saying. Swarming is flow driven.

>>At repro c/o, the established colony must revise the workforce make-up to gather, pre-dry, extend cell depth, and cap honey. They have not needed these workers through the swarm prep period. When the workforce is restructured, they are ready to store honey at efficient rates - known in some circles as "main flow." They make these personnel changes during a two to three week period following repro c/o. Since they are not generally storing overhead during this period, we refer to it as the (storage) lull.<<

Storage lull? Here, that 2-3 week period you talk about is a dearth between dandelion/fruit bloom/brambles and the main flow. What happens when the main flow begins and there are no supers or not enough supers on the hive? Swarm preparations. 

One minute you're saying your repro swarms are different from swarms that issue later in the season, and then you say the later swarms are normal. 
I guess I don't understand the difference Walt. Please explain how prime swarms issuing at different flow periods are different from each other.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Bernhard,
The opinion that the honeybee developed their survival format for the woodland is even less underpinned than a "myth." I may be the only person who believes the hypothesis has any merit. And I didn't start out with that opinion. While studying the internal operations of functional colonies, it suddenly occurred to me how well-suited their survival format was to life in the forest. Living the social insect life style and reproduction by colony division makes that really complex. Some of the features leading to the conclusion are included here:
..Mid winter brood rearing starts the seasonal format. Not many insects are active in the winter, but the bees have a lot to get done to issue a repro swarm at the peak of the spring flow - giving the swarm a chance at establishment on the flow trail off.
..In temperate (as opposed to tropical) areas, the bees need an enclosure to protect them from winter conditions. Millions of years ago, there were not many natural and suitable dry enclosures.
..If you believe old literature, the bees have special techniques for adapting the tree hollow for a permanent residence. I don't believe all I read, but tend to buy into features that I can see. The bees are given credit for being able to clean out punky wood and varnish the interior surfaces of the cavity with propolis down to the live wood. Then add propolis to wax at the comb attach points for structual strength. In short, we don't think that these special skills built into their instincts are an accident. The hollow tree IS their natural home.

And where would you expect to find hollow trees?

For the record, I disagree with most of your other comments. But nothing is gained by offering rebuttal. Neither of us would change our opinions.

Walt


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



wcubed said:


> But nothing is gained by offering rebuttal. Neither of us would change our opinions.


Which opinion? I asked questions on facts that are unclear to me and provided some observations I made. I do not have opinions. Gave up on opinions, since their lifespan is short anyway. (At least if you have an open mind.)

I reckon you do no good to the checkerboarding as a system by interweaving mystic facts (read: cannot be proven) into it. I would drop those thoughts that "occured" to you suddenly. I do it all the time.


----------



## wcubed

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Sounds like good advice. Also sounds like there might be an opinion in there, somewhere.
Walt


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Michael Palmer said:


> You said..."One of the reasons for rejection of the concept is the appearence of other types of swarms, later."
> 
> What kinds of swarms would those be Walt? The ones that issue on the main flow or the fall flow? The..."we ran out of room and we bumped up against the limits of the capacity of our cavity just like we did in the spring when we bump up against a honey dome or the limits of our cavity cuz we live in a tree and no one has supered us or checkerboarded us" kind of swarm?
> 
> Are they really different? Why because you say they are? To me they are no different. Same as an earlier swarm, the bees ran out of overhead nectar storage...either because there was what you call a honey dome or they hit the top of their cavity...both of which lead to backfilling of the broodnest...which leads to swarm preparations...not the other way around. Doesn't matter if it's May or June or July or August.
> 
> Swarms in July ain't worth a fly, but they still swarm don't they. And in August. And sometimes September. But those don't count as what you call a repro swarm because they're different?
> 
> You said.."Just knowing when you are out of the woods on reproductive swarming is a work-saver."
> 
> Were the colonies that swarmed in July and August "out of the woods"?



Wait a minute. "Swarms in July aren't worth a fly" But I thought you just got through saying you see no difference in an early mid or late season swarm? How can there possible be a better or worse swarm if there is no difference? I see this as a serious contradiction and a blatant admission your part that is fact there is a difference. Now the issue is what are those differences.

Here is my thinking on it. any swarm that is not Reproductive period swarm which is a term created by Walt defined by him and is not debatable. It also clearly has an end I have seen it myself and the fact that swarming can be prevented confirms. I will choose to call it early season swarming as opposed to mid or late season cast offs. From what I have seen it is clearly different. in fact from what I have seen I do not consider mid or late season swarms swarms at all. I consider them funeral processions. I do not consider them attempts to reproduce in any manner. I consider them one of the bees methods of disposing of an undesirable queen. I also consider this a considerable difference than what takes place at early season which is a strong robust swarm capable of thriving and resulting in a new colony. An early season swarm and I have seen plenty of them has a queen that quickly builds a brood nest and bees that draw comb at an extraordinary rate. later season swarms even by a few weeks do not have either. they do not build frames of comb they built tiny patches of it. the queen does not fill frames with brood she would barely fill up the skin of a baseball. More interesting than that no attempt is made to replace her even though bees may have nearly an entire season to do so. they will even survive winter. I know this for a fact. and still no attempt to replace her. This all appears to me that any mid or later season swarm is nothing but a cast of of a failing queen and her escort. destined to die and with no intention of preventing that.


----------



## jmgi

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Daniel, you make some good points about later season swarms, but do you think their lack of instinctive ambition could be directly related to them having to construct the new nest during the time of the season that is less than ideal as far as incoming nectar and pollen sources? As you say, even 2-3 weeks between different swarms indicates a difference in how those two swarms approach building up going forward. Could it be that the availability of large amounts of pollen and nectar early, followed closely by a noticeable (as far as the bees are concerned) decrease in those incoming resources, is what defines the two kinds of swarming impulses and the industriousness of those two different swarms?


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Daniel Y said:


> Wait a minute. "Swarms in July aren't worth a fly" But I thought you just got through saying you see no difference in an early mid or late season swarm? How can there possible be a better or worse swarm if there is no difference? I see this as a serious contradiction and a blatant admission your part that is fact there is a difference. Now the issue is what are those differences.


Serious contradiction, and blatant admission Daniel? Whoa man, back up. You misunderstand what I'm saying, or I wasn't clear. I apologize for getting you wound up. Let me make what I said clearer...

I was saying that the REASON for the issuance of prime swarms was the same, not the quality, or performance, or their ability to build up for winter was the same. Yes, late swarms can be called funeral processions if you like, but do you really think the bees are swarming just to die, and if late enough in the season, to kill the parent colony because it can't winter? I doubt you do. So if you don't, please tell me...why did the colony issue a prime swarm so late in the season. That's what I'm asking both you and Walt.


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



jmgi said:


> Daniel, you make some good points about later season swarms, but do you think their lack of instinctive ambition could be directly related to them having to construct the new nest during the time of the season that is less than ideal as far as incoming nectar and pollen sources?


Obviously a factor.


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Jmgi.
in the case of my first swarm absolutely not. it came barely after what should have been the swarm season proper. and it never made any attempt at a significant build up even though it was hived in early June, it was still prime flow they all the way into November or further to avail themselves of forage and never did. Our last flow begins after first frost here. In the spring while all other hives where well into build up this hive never made any attempt. once I obtained cells from other hives that did attempt to swarm I requeened it. and it took right off. The overall impression to me was this hive had no intention of surviving.

Michael. I used the words Serious and Blatant because I consider them accurate as to what I see.


I am aware of claims of late season swarm that is caused by crowding but I have never seen one. Also the exact cause of these swarms seems to be a bit fuzzy. first it seems that crowding is the accepted cause yet other information indicates it would be extremely difficult to get a hive so crowded that it would swarm. Without seeing one for myself I cannot form my own conclusions.

As for what I have seen. Do I think these bees left for no other reason than to die? Yes. I have observed myself that there is no effort on the swarms part to survive, not in spring, summer fall winter or returning to spring surviving right through build up into the start of the main flow for a second time until they eventually where re queened.

In all it built up to 5 small pieces of comb. then just went stagnant and eventually fell back to a cluster no bigger than a baseball with a walnut size area of brood at best.

I am now seeing the same thing in a swarm we caught late season last year. I do not intend to give it nearly a full year to see what it does.

It first accoured to me that maybe these bees where a cluster waiting to die one day when I checked on them and actually said out loud. these bees are determined to die. I then sort of went with the default conclusion of. the most obvious answer is most likely the correct one. For me they do not act like swarms so I do not consider them swarms. just what they are. well that is my best guess.


----------



## jmgi

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Daniel, I have to say that in all the years I have had bees, I don't recall ever hiving a swarm during the swarm season and not have it build up normally like you would expect. I don't know why an early swarm like you had would just stagnate like that unless the queen was burned out.


----------



## Mike Gillmore

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

I'll have to agree with jmgi. Daniel, I think what you are experiencing with your swarms is the exception rather than the rule. I've hived a lot of swarms over the years, some were in July. I've never had a swarm shut down as you describe. They might run out of time to prepare properly for winter, but I've never had any kamikaze swarms that I can recall. 

I don't have the answers, but my gut and personal experience tells me that mid to late season swarms are not all suicide flights.


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

It still does not explain that then never attempted to supersede a queen if in fact she was just a failing queen. It woudl be expected that any swarm that leaves with the old queen will supersede her. or so I have heard. The only reason let this hive go so long was that one it was my first swarm. and second it was in my top bar hive and I really didn't care much what happened to it. I suppose ti is possible that the colony never got strong enough to attempt a supercedure. except they did not start out exactly small. they where not huge but it was not a tiny swarm by any means.

jmgi, keep in mind I do not consider this a swarm that was during normal swarm season. I am not sure if you mean any time a swarm might normally issue. but that distinction is actually what this conversation is about. I consider swarm period as that period defined by Walt as Repro Swarm period and am presenting the possibility that any thing mistaken as a swarm at any other time is in fact not a swarm but a function of some other purpose.


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

It couldn't be a virgin queen that never made it back?


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Ace, I saw the queen frequently over nearly a years time. She did produce brood just not a lot of it. It was not drone brood so she was not infertile. I am not sure poor mating results in less laying just more laying of drones. But she should still have laid a decent nest even if it was all drone. She simply did not lay much and none of the bees seemed to think they should do anything about it.

I have heard in the past that if bees are placed in to large of a space it can demoralize them. that was what I thought i was seeing at first. But over time I started getting the impression they where determined to just die.


----------



## jmgi

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

Daniel, I was referring to the typical swarm season for me here in my area, which is May-June time frame. I do understand what you are referring to also about swarms after the "reproductive swarm period", but I don't understand how you are so sure that this particular swarm you spoke about earlier is not of the reproductive kind, you said it occured "barely" after the normal swarm time. I don't know if I would classify it as something other than a repro swarm just because it didn't build up normally as you would expect a prime swarm to do. Also, expecting a swarm to supercede a failing or old queen, if indeed it was, is not something I would bet on either. Bees sometimes will not supercede a queen that appears to us to be failing, and will supercede one that looks very prolific to us, I'm sure you have heard that saying before.


----------



## Ian

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Daniel Y said:


> "Swarms in July aren't worth a fly"


Unless they winter inside


----------



## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Daniel Y said:


> Ace, I saw the queen frequently over nearly a years time. She did produce brood just not a lot of it.


I suppose the experts would ask, "why didn't you pinch her"? I would like to ask at this point how does a colony know whether their queen is any good or not when they all came from that queen?


----------



## Michael Palmer

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Daniel Y said:


> I consider swarm period as that period defined by Walt as Repro Swarm period and am presenting the possibility that any thing mistaken as a swarm at any other time is in fact not a swarm but a function of some other purpose.


And that purpose might be what?


----------



## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*

jmgi, I do not consider that swarm a Repro swarm for no other reason than it did not act like one. As for the repro swarm period. At the time I captured the swarm I had no idea if it was swarm season or not. at that time I thought any time was swarm season. I was aware the spring was the main period of time for swarming. Based upon my tracking of the swarm period the following year it would have been from April 14th to just about the beginning of the last week in May. I woudl have to look up what date I got my last swarm call. In all I captured some 13 swarms. all of them thriving types. The swarm in question had been captured the previous year in the second week of June. I agree that is a short separation of time. but it is a separation of time. I do have further question of whether this first year swarm was actually cast in the Repro period because year two was an early year by quite a bit. The only thing I can add to the information about season one is that another beekeeper was able to put together and get built up a 5 frame nuc for me and had it to me on May 10th. That to me seems pretty consistent with the same sort of swarm period. if he had queens to make a nuc from I suspect they got started at or near that mid April mark. maybe even a bit sooner. I cannot say if the queen had been an over wintered one or not.

Ace, I did pinch her in the end. and pretty much as soon as I had queens to replace her with. Keep in mind I near had anything to compare this swarm to until the following spring when I started capturing other swarms. it was then that I got swarm after swarm that behaved entirely differently . building up to colonies that actually produced a little bit of honey. one of them later attempting to swarm again. So the entire picture did not come together for me for quite a while.

Michael. to cast off an undesirable queen. Either the colony pushed her out or she chose to leave on her own would be my guess. I suspect that is only one guess among many hundreds and the odds of it being correct are almost non existent.
Not knowing exactly what the difference is does not mean there is no difference. certainly not when a difference can bee seen.


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## Acebird

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Daniel Y said:


> Either the colony pushed her out or she chose to leave on her own would be my guess.


So far what I have read about bees the queen decides nothing. Certainly there is a difference between a repo swarm and a supercedure which is not a swarm at all. The bees don't leave. But when some of the bees do leave (with a queen) and it is a swarm, what is the difference regardless of when it happens?


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## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Acebird said:


> I would like to ask at this point how does a colony know whether their queen is any good or not when they all came from that queen?


I have no idea what they know or why they know it. How do they decide to supersede the queen? I suspect that casting off a queen may very well be just another way the bees dispose of a queen they have chosen to replace. I have also seen where they do not get rid of the old queen at all. so I know the details of replacing a queen vary.


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## Daniel Y

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Acebird said:


> But when some of the bees do leave (with a queen) and it is a swarm, what is the difference regardless of when it happens?


You will have to read my earlier posts. I have described the difference pretty clearly.


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## jmgi

*Re: "lier or a fool"*



Acebird said:


> So far what I have read about bees the queen decides nothing. Certainly there is a difference between a repo swarm and a supercedure which is not a swarm at all. The bees don't leave. But when some of the bees do leave (with a queen) and it is a swarm, what is the difference regardless of when it happens?


I agree Ace.


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