# Honey Super Cell (HSC) economics



## Bryanaw40 (Jun 11, 2006)

I have been reading with great interest the threads about HSC, looking at posted pictures of the stuff while exploring the other alternatives like natural cell and small cell wax foundation. 

Can anyone explain to me how this HSC is economically viable? At a cost of over $5.45 per frame, one could have over $218 in frames alone in each hive. I realize beekeeping is a hobby for many of us including me, but this investment in frames significantly extends any plan to realize a payback by close to double.

What am I missing here? 
bryan


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I'm cutting them down to mediums and will only use them in the broodnest
that will consist of 2 or 3 boxes so the cost will be $54.50 or whatever 1.5 times that is
my initial experiment with it is aimed at getting a couple of hive setup on it and then feeding empty frames in between HSC frames to hopefully get really nice natural combs
the only way I'll invest more in it is if I find some big advantages
I'm seeing some SHB in my ohive and I'm wondering if it will help with that
people say it helps with wax moth
if it provides these additional advantages it might be worth it (I only have room for 6-8 hives and I already have enough for 3)
otherwise I'm just going to use it as a method to get really nice wax combs

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They are fully drawn comb and the wax moths can't eat it and the small hive beetles can't eat it. Basically it's permanent. If you want to get rid of the old cocoons, you can power wash them every so many years to get them out.

It's hard to beat permanent.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

The only advantage I can see is to use them to speed up small cell regression. If I thought I had 20 years left to be keeping bees I would be more impressed with the perminant factor, but the same feature holds true of most other plastic frames.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>but the same feature holds true of most other plastic frames.

Not at all. Other plastic frames the wax moths will STILL destroy the comb on them. The bees still have to redraw the comb after that.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Everything already mentioned and factor in time saved
on bees yielding faster package build up and consequent
honey yield.

And if they provide some level of varroa protection that
makes them even more valuable,


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## Bryanaw40 (Jun 11, 2006)

Thanks for the input. Permanant...did not think about that. 

HSC is definitely a labor saver for the beekeeper and the bees. If I add up the time I have invested in assembling frames with and without foundation HSC starts looking a little more reasonable. 

I should try a box this year for myself and see how it goes. 

thanks,
bryan


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

figure this out how much honey does it take to draw a frame of foundation out? iv heard about 3-4 lbs so take that at a 1$ a lb and the time it takes the bees to draw it out. that is one huge advantage right there. then of course you have it cant be hit by wax moths i have prblems with that. and instant regression that pays for it right there for me.


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*My concern with them*

I wrestled with this for quite some time. I like a permanent frame, know about pressure washing, but i have also seen ten nucs develop AFB (Starlines 1971) in a weeks time in the fall and i am concerned about how perfect pressure washing is at removing every bit of propolis. Not only that, but were i to clean a frame of AFB with nectar or honey in it, the robbing would add to the misery. Of all the problems my investment faces, i fear AFB worst of all (okay add bears in there).

Chrissy


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

if i had AFB i would dump the frames and not clean them off too much risk of the new hives getting it again


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

HSC and PermaComb can be boiled. They will withstand up to 220 F. So you could boil them in lye if you had a problem with AFB.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

*Boiling lye*

Would the water actually have to boil? I am sure that even hotter would be better, but, say you take the water to 180 just to be safe, would that suffice?

Is it the boiling, or the lye that is killing the AFB? If it is the boiling water, then why even add the lye?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

AFB spores are very hard to kill. In fact any bacteria that produces spores when conditions become unfavorable are hard to kill, that is why they autoclave surgical instruments. Tempitures above 212 degrees maintained for various amounts of time is what is required to kill these spores, the hotter the better......but then I don't have an autoclave in my backyard, and chances are you don't either.....that is why the lye is added I suspect .


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## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

I'm curious why one would cut down HSC when you can buy the permacomb which is alredy a medium(almost)? I have both and can't see a lot of difference, unless there is a mm difference in cellsize.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

beegee said:


> I'm curious why one would cut down HSC when you can buy the permacomb which is alredy a medium(almost)? I have both and can't see a lot of difference, unless there is a mm difference in cellsize.


It's the differance in cell size, HSC is 4.9mm, the permacomb is larger .


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

as peggjam says, the real reason is cell size
but think about this

I took 2 boxes of HSC, 40 frames, enough for 2 hives that are double deeps
done the "normal" way, they have nowhere to raise drones
I cut 5 of the frames up in quarters and used 1/4 piece in each frame
that made 20 frames
I took the other 35 frames and cut them in half, 70 frames
20 + 70 = 90 frames
a 3 medium box hive is equivalent to 2 deeps
so for my investment I got enough frames for an extra hive
(to be honest I had to buy 90 frames)
plus the bees got a nice controlled space to raise drones
now I gotta say, this was a lot of work
all this cutting and sawing and gluing would be prohibitive on a large scale
but I like to tinker
I'm getting them into hives now, will let you know how it goes

Dave

ps: did I mention I really like the feel of wooden frames?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

HSC = 4.9mm
PermaComb = 5.1mm
Wax dipped PermaComb = 4.95mm


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## Lively Bee's (Dec 9, 2004)

My reasons 

Pro's
1 permanent frame
2 Once they start to use them the queen lays non stop she dont have to wait for drawn cells

Cons 

1. They are heavy!!!! I can carry a box of 40 wax frams out to the bee yard but I have a hard time carring a 20 frame box of HSC out to the bee yard and let me tell ya a deep full of honey and HSC is HEAVY so becarefull

So far it has been great I have 20 cased that will be placed in to use this season and time will tell if I like it or not but so far so good.

I was going to add permacomb this year but surgey made me hold off.


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