# Thick syrup and pump trouble. What's the problem here?



## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

I'm using a 1" brass gear pump hooked to a Honda gx120 (4hp). I started noticing trouble last month when I switched from sugar water to the mannlake syrup. In order to start the motor I have to first close the ball valve on the tote and after several tugs the motor will start up. It runs fine while the valve is closed but when I open it up and allow syrup out of the tote the motor starts to bog down and then just stops. I have a relief hose running off the pump back into the tote when I'm not feeding. Something I'm noticing in the relief hose is there's a lot of air being mixed in.

Is this a motor problem or a pump problem and how can I fix this? 

It's been fairly cold here in Linden CA with the nights freezing and the day temps getting up into the high 50's.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

I'd try heating the syrup to see if that solves your problem. I have a dadant syrup pump and if the syrup is cold enough, it will slip the belt enough to make it smoke. Mann Lake sells immersion heaters that work very well; just don't overheat the syrup or you'll get problems with toxicity


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

I glad you shared that information about you Dadant pump. 

Do you mean like this one?
https://www.mannlakeltd.com/shielded-immersion-heater-br-120-volt-1000-watts

Will it heat up 100 gallons of syrup in a tote?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

It does sound like a cold thick syrup problem. I tried to pump some cold syrup today and it came out slow with lots of air.Looked like creamed honey.I am going to try to heat the tote with the Mann Lake immersion heater, but looks like it will only go down a little ways into the tote.
How does one go about warming a tote with this heater? It says not to immerse the cord. I am thinking a lot of stirring.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Would using a bigger motor help or hinder or make no difference do you think?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

beesohappy said:


> help or hinder or make no difference do you think?


Ok, so first, you shouldn't be feeding syrup at this time of year anyway, get those bees heavy in the fall, syrup stimulates them to fly bad idea right now in this weather, also the shortest day of the year bees should be sleeping right now. So on to your question, you really need to warm the syrup if at all possible, make a make shift oven over the tote. Best of luck.


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

beesohappy said:


> I glad you shared that information about you Dadant pump.
> 
> Do you mean like this one?
> https://www.mannlakeltd.com/shielded-immersion-heater-br-120-volt-1000-watts
> ...


That's the one. It will heat that much syrup. I make my own syrup and put 2 of them in 100 gallons of water over night. By morning, it's the temperature of hot coffee and dissolves sugar well. Be careful not to overheat HFCS because of toxicity issues


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## Chip Euliss (Sep 2, 2010)

Like Keith said. Get them heavy in fall and then stimulate them in mid-January for almonds. Last year, I used 2 lbs of nutrabee between the two hive bodies of each hive and gave each hive a gallon of syrup. Got paid for all the hives I shipped and they still looked sweet when they got back to North Dakota


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Just mixing up some sub for later. Bees are resting. Though I saw a lot of cans on down in the Valley.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

If it's been sitting it'll probably settle out a bit too with a really thick slurry at the bottom that's probably barely in liquid form, assuming the pump is sitting on the bottom of the tote.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

When the syrup is really viscous a number of things can happen. On the suction side the pressure can drop so low that the syrup cavitates, the pump then breaks the bubbles into foam giving the syrup the creamed look described above. On the pressure side the pressure can rise very high because the shear forces in the relief line restrain flow back to the tank. The shear forces in the fluid in the pump use a lot of power.

The best solution is to have the whole setup in a warm place.
Next best is to heat the fluid in the tank, you may still have some resistance until the warm fluid can clear the cold fluid from the lines and the pump.
If you run the delivery line back to the tote and let it run wide open into the tote it may help the pressure side problem, and after a while the friction in the fluid will warm the fluid.
You can temporarily restrict the flow into the suction side of the pump to get things going but only totally close that valve for a few seconds. The pump needs the fluid for lubrication, and if the fluid isn't moving it won't warm up either.
Pouring hot water over the pump and the suction line may be enough to get things going.
You could go to an engine with a gear reduction output, that will turn the pump slower, the pumping rate will be less. Before this you should check that you will not be exceeding the allowable input torque for your pump. (output torque for a gear reduction engine of similar horsepower will be higher)

Have fun now-
Bill


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

loggermike said:


> Though I saw a lot of cans on down in the Valley.


I believe it Mike, I like to put sub on the first part of January, then if needed, syrup the in the second part of January, but I rarely feed syrup in January only if there lite.
BSH, that heater looks like that would really help you, I would still try to blanket the tote some way.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

loggermike said:


> It does sound like a cold thick syrup problem. I tried to pump some cold syrup today and it came out slow with lots of air.Looked like creamed honey.I am going to try to heat the tote with the Mann Lake immersion heater, but looks like it will only go down a little ways into the tote.
> How does one go about warming a tote with this heater? It says not to immerse the cord. I am thinking a lot of stirring.


Could you heat a smaller unit of water, then run some hosing through the tote and pump the warm water through it for a bit with the syrup pump?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Although most people use gear pumps they really get a lot of forces put on them by a thick mix. Now I'm using a 5.6 hp honda trash pump, simple and pumps anything.

Good for mixing also cos can use a 2 inch hose and wind the speed right up way past what you'll get with a gear pump, have the tank churning real good.

Showed it it on our local site and noticed a few guys have flicked over to the same thing since, all happy.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I miss my little Walinga, it would clear that tote in no time.....


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

If you are feeding pro sweet this time of year-you have to thin it with water it is over 70 percent solids
dont try to deal with a full tote if you are only going to feed half a tote--
back off the preasure on the relieve valve -and let the syrup cycle back into the tote for a far amount of time
this in itself will warm the syrup--(this is why you only bring the amount you are going to feed-takes time )
there are other tricks you can do about the stalling-the dadant pump has a stand pipe--good for many things
like thining syrup in the pump or hose for easy start up--or even mineral oilat end of season storage-- RDY-B


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## dtp (Jun 4, 2013)

Thinning the syrup with do the trick. I had to thin the last tote of prosweet I used.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

So does no one not make a circulatory heater or something specifically designed for totes that you could just toss into one?


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## Thedwall (Jul 9, 2016)

That Mann Lake immersion heater works fine if you submerge the cord. I've done it for two years with no problems. No idea why they put that warning on there.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I bet it's some sort of safety requirement to cover their liability in case someone reaches into the tote and gets zapped.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Does a trash pump work well for 2:1 syrup ? It would nice to be able to use the pump to both mix and fill.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes 2:1 is what I use, got to be upfront and say I haven't done it in freezing conditions like the OP though. It's a 2 inch pump with snap on hose fittings, so I can snap on a 2 inch pipe which goes back into the tank for mixing, or snap on a one inch hose for feeding. The pipe from the tank to the pump is 2 inch. Seen one guys set up he has a 2 inch pipe permanently plumbed back to the tank for mixing, and the one inch hose permanently plumbed for feeding, and controls which one gets used with two gate valves.

Myself I have found a not permanently mounted mixing pipe useful because even though I start out mixing with the water close to boiling, as sugar is added cooling the mix and it's getting thick, the sugar can go into bag sized lumps and best way to break them up is point the pipe directly at them. Once all sugar is added and in suspension I'll leave the pump on for 5 or 10 minutes to really churn it up and job done, don't want any grains left undissolved to start crystalising.

The other thing with a trash pump is the engine crankshaft mounts directly onto the pump impellor, there is no loss of power in transfer via a belt or gears, the full horse power of the enging is transferred directly to the impellor so there is plenty of grunt. Trash pumps run at low pressure, mine is around 3 atmospheres so little risk of popping hoses or fittings, for feeding I only run it just above idle though, more is getting up there a bit in terms of forces on things and speed it will come out the end, don't want it blasting into the feeders as I use straw in them.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

Oldtimer - Is this the trash pump your using? 

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200585487_200585487


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think that one is a model or 2 up from the one I use. I've lost the link to the actual one I purchased but this looks exactly like it. 

http://www.riequip.co.nz/shop/Buy+W...tandard+Water+Pumps/2+Honda+Powered+Pump.html

One thing, the pull start can be unscrewed by undoing 4 screws and rotated 180. This makes the pull start workable from the same side as the on off switch and the direction the hose comes off which is more convenient if using to feed out from a tank. 

The specs describe it as self priming, but for syrup it isn't.The impellor housing has a removable plug top and bottom it's easy (no tools required) to undo the top one and pour some water or syrup in there to get things started, once it's been primed it will then run through any number of stops and starts without need to be primed again.

The cost of my one is a lot less than the one you linked also.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

This one looks pretty good and much more reasonable. I'm looking for a smaller and lighter unit for the UTV and pickup truck. Also need a fire pump for the homestead.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200418133_200418133


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think that's the same one .

If it's the same one I got, not only the pull start can be rotated, but also the outlet hose housing so you can point it whichever direction you want.

A well designed and tidy unit.

Too late to order your Christmas present MTN-Bees?


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

MTN-Bees said:


> This one looks pretty good and much more reasonable. I'm looking for a smaller and lighter unit for the UTV and pickup truck. Also need a fire pump for the homestead.
> 
> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200418133_200418133



$469 us is $680 nz, real close


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Thin it down to 50-55% solids. Toss in a little Thymol for fermentation prevention. Bit cold for most Cali bees to be drinking cold beer this time of year.


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

I have this pump and am very pleased with it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A cautionary tale for anyone buying one of these pumps. They are shipped without oil in the sump.

Another beekeeper who bought one called me to ask for help why he couldn't get it to start, he'd been trying for ages apparently. Turns out he omitted to put the supplied oil into the sump, the motor has protection that will not allow the engine to run with low oil, so the guy had been wearing himself out trying to make it start. Called me back a few minutes later, had put the oil in, and bingo, started no worries.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Those trash pumps retain fluid in the pump housing to allow them to reprime themselves, so if you have freezing temperatures to contend with either store it in a warm spot, or be careful to drain the housing. Once you drain the housing the pump won't reprime until you put some fluid back into the housing.
Bill


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

If you pump something that will ferment, I'd make sure to clean it out too if you're not using it for awhile.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ok, so first, you shouldn't be feeding syrup at this time of year anyway, get those bees heavy in the fall, syrup stimulates them to fly bad idea right now in this weather, also the shortest day of the year bees should be sleeping right now. So on to your question, you really need to warm the syrup if at all possible, make a make shift oven over the tote. Best of luck.


Thanks for the heads up Kieth. Is this the right time of year to start giving them pollen sub patties? I'm hoping to split these hives at least once.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

RDY-B said:


> If you are feeding pro sweet this time of year-you have to thin it


I thought about that but was concerned that the extra moisture would mess up the bees rather than help them.

Wouldn't putting moisture in the hives be bad for the bees?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Splitting before almonds?


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

JRG13 said:


> Splitting before almonds?


No. I wish my bees were that strong. I'd like to get them split earlier in the year so they can build up really good so maybe next year I'll have couple hundred really great looking hives.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

pro sweet is like 3-1--you need to thin down to 2-1-to pump this time of year
are you wanting to put on whieght or stimulate some brood ?any time night temps
are below 45 degrees its tough for the bees to take sryup -they are in tight cluster 
at night and depending on day time temps dont break cluster till mid day--I started
feeding sub at the end of october-my bees generaly fly all winter-except for the cold
snaps--there is a cold snap coming--gave some sub to bees yesterday--so did other
keepers in the area----is that your set of bees on payne ave across from the feed store
looks like grass has grown over the entraces--hard to see from the road--ventilation
and air transfer is very important--i never see anybody working those bees--drive
past several times a week on my way to work bees--there are no short cuts but all the efort
pays off good luck--- RDY-B


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Keith is right, this is not the time of year to feed syrup. Save that effort and the resources for when it will do the bees a world of good. If the end goal is too split the bees once, then do it after the almonds and feed them whatever amount they need to met your end goals. It will be so much easier and you have a reasonnable chnce of success. Feeding syrup now is a sure not to be able to achieve your end goals.

Duplicate the behavior of "succesful" beekeepers in the area and that also increases your odds of success.

I use a trash pump like the one shown by Oldtimer. It can mix granular sugar and water, then be used to feed, however I find it somewhat lacks in pressure, so it takes a bit of time to fill the frame feeders. It does get the job done though.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Yeah it's a good time to put on some sub, if the hives are large enough they can eat it during this cold snap next week. I've been putting on a little bit of Nutrabee since October and hives were starting to brood up again so now's a good time to put on a good amount to keep them going.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

RDY-B said:


> pro sweet is like 3-1--you need to thin down to 2-1-to pump this time of year
> are you wanting to put on whieght or stimulate some brood ?any time night temps
> are below 45 degrees its tough for the bees to take sryup -they are in tight cluster
> at night and depending on day time temps dont break cluster till mid day--I started
> ...


I see the cold snap your talking about. Looks like its going to get down right cold for a week or so.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ok, so first, you shouldn't be feeding syrup at this time of year anyway, get those bees heavy in the fall, syrup stimulates them to fly bad idea right now in this weather, also the shortest day of the year bees should be sleeping right now. So on to your question, you really need to warm the syrup if at all possible, make a make shift oven over the tote. Best of luck.


Thank you guys for the knowledge. So I'll hold back on syrup for when the bees need it and thin it down before I feed it.

Is it possible to feed bees sub in single boxes when using migratory lids without feeder shims?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Yeah, just mash it down til the lid is seated properly again.


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