# Getting bees built up for almonds



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

All pollen Sub is not equal. Are you using a "home brew" or one from the market? Any real pollen coming in at all? How much sub are you giving them at a time? What was the starting amount of bees and current amount? How long have you been trying to build them up? Lots of questions, I know, but there's many reasons that bees don't build up as well. Some can be very simple to figure out, some not so simple. Fill in the gaps and give as much info as you can to see if anyone can pinpoint a problem.


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

Ok most of these hives were splits made in july I have been using ultra bee patties have been putting on 2 at a time which for some seems like to much and just turns into wax moth food some have 6 frames but some only have 4 there is some pollen coming in and there is brood just not as much as usual for this time usually by this time these bees have built up much better than this


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Can we assume you have been doing this long enough to think that something is amiss? From your Post I think you feel that bees should be building faster. Presumably they have in other years? Maybe you are impatient? One big obstacle is building bees in late summer early fall then going into winter is that it goes against the cyclical nature of bees. Top it off with drought and likely little to no natural pollen, then for sure it is a struggle for the bees. Anyways all the best to you and your bees.

Jean-Marc


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Ok, Is there any difference between this year's setup and previous as far as the type of pollen sub, type of syrup, etc? You mentioned your queens were from diff sources. Are they standard Italian base queens, or VSH, etc and are they any diff than any of the previous queens you've had? What varroa treatments were used ?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

i've never built bees up in the fall to go to work in february , no experience with this so no help from me.


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

Jean Marc yes in previous years they did build faster I know every year is different maybe I am being impatient thats why I am putting it out there to those who have more experience and wisdom than me. drlonzo some are italian some are vsh italian some are carnis some are mutts and used apivar and also did a quick oav


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Are you feeding simple syrup, HFCS, or anything at all? Your varroa treatment using apivar was done via directions for specified term? How long ago did you do the OAV? Last but never least, what does the brood pattern look like for these hives?


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

break them down to singles-the 4 framers are wobblers at best--the six framers will get
to the 8 frame hive you need -then add the second deep-even if its a the time of going
to the orchard-empty on the bottom full 8 frames on top-that will rent----most times its a mater
of a influx of fresh bees to jump start the colony-try moving the weak -to the spot where the boomers are
the boomers-will give up there field force-and repopulate the weak hives -they will support themselves on
the merit of the resources they have---
to give a more accurate answer we need to know more information-number of hives -hive whieght-type of treatment and
so forth--late spits in a drought year for me are a full box-two and three framers are a lot of work--RDY-B


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

Feeding sugar water treatment was done as per instructions finished oav about 3 weeks ago there is brood and the pattern is tight nothing shot out or anything just not a ton like I am used to seeing


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

RDY-B said:


> break them down to singles................-RDY-B


something you can start to sink your teeth into liljake83.
sounds like you're speaking from experience RDY-B.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

You said you put a couple pollen sub patties on at a time. How fast are they going through it? Are they completely eating it before it can dry out?


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

RDY-B I have considered breaking them down to singles and still may do so these splits were made with 4 frames with the weather still good I am hoping they kick it in gear and get going. drlonzo some hives are scarfing it down others after 2 or 3 weeks its still there and hard on the ends again just not what I am used to.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

you just dont have enough population-or developing brood to justify a fast consumption 
you are feeding ULTRABEE-the consumption rate of that product is at a slower pace to start 
with--its ok feed if there enough bees to consume it and share it through trophalaxes-but
giveing them more than they can handel -of anything is not ideal--
time is ticking away--cold at night these days--warm in the day--sun at a less angel
you cant build from nothing-strenghthen with the resources you have--RDY-B


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

RDY-B gave you some very good advice in both posts only thing to add is feed light sugar water, but you are running out of time.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Flyer Jim said:


> RDY-B gave you some very good advice in both posts only thing to add is feed light sugar water, but you are running out of time.


Jimmy, you left out one last thing, RDY-B feeds Nutra Bee.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Try some dry feeding, ditch the ultra bee, and buy some real sub.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

RAK said:


> Try some dry feeding, ditch the ultra bee, and buy some real sub.


I wouldn't ditch the ultra bee until you find some of this real sub.
where can one buy this real sub?


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

RAK said:


> Try some dry feeding, ditch the ultra bee, and buy some real sub.


Suggestions?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Everyone seems to like Nutra Bee from Keith Jarrett that has used it. I've not had a chance to use any, one day maybe. But for now I use Ultra Bee as well as you. I get pretty good results. The bees hog it down.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Do some mite counts? Were your treatments effective? I wouldn't rely on apivar. What is your syrup consumption rate? You have a sub producer 2 hours away.
Feed the Ultra to your chickens or dog.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

RAK, I have no experience with the Ultra.
Been using the homemade patty sub. with Mega Bee added.
Mega has the highest protein % it seems of all the sub.
around. A bit expensive but worth it in the long run.
Happy with them so far to fatten up the Fall/winter bees.*

How you feed them is just as important as how much you feed them each time.
Of course, the best of the best production queens selection start on
the summer dearth. If you are a mutt at least show me the solid broods first.
Even the handicap evaluated queen will outperform a poorly raised mutt queen in
my experience. What have you selected?


*See the difference:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

RAK said:


> Feed the Ultra to your chickens or dog.


:scratch:

Randy Oliver ran comparative tests of various pollen substitutes. You can read the results here:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/a-comparative-test-of-the-pollen-sub/

For some unexplained reason Keith Jarrett decided _not _to have his Nutra-bee evaluated as part of this study. One can only speculate as to _why_.

However, Ultrabee ranked quite highly in Randy's study. Note that in the final evaluation, natural pollen slightly outperformed _all _the various substitutes.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

l83, welcome to the business.


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

RAK said:


> Do some mite counts? Were your treatments effective? I wouldn't rely on apivar. What is your syrup consumption rate? You have a sub producer 2 hours away.
> Feed the Ultra to your chickens or dog.


I agree never assume the mite treatment was effective the apivar did a good job but still had some mites so I treated with oav mite counts are excellent now well within the limits


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> :scratch:
> For some unexplained reason Keith Jarrett decided _not _to have his Nutra-bee evaluated as part of this study. One can only speculate as to _why_.
> .


RS, do a test with a hand full of five framers..... NO thanks, also all in one spot..... me thinks the right way to conduct a "test" is with regular full hives in about five different areas of the country, with different wintering. Mega Bee was the best bang for your buck on the small scale test.

My judge & jury is the commercial keepers that we sell to. Just like the TV commercial ads says.......what in your wallet. Believe me the commercial keeper knows what works & what doesn't.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Keith, wheres the like button...


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

beepro said:


> Mega has the highest protein % it seems of all the sub.
> around.


There's more to sub than protein content. Im sure you know this but others reading this might not be aware.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> My judge & jury is the commercial keepers that we sell to. Just like the TV commercial ads says.......what in your wallet. Believe me the commercial keeper knows what works & what doesn't.


Seems to me that Randy Oliver *is *a "commercial beekeeper"! And from what I see, Randy actually runs *tests *before he makes judgments as to the efficacy of a process.




... side-by-side tests ...


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Nutra bee may be the real deal, but if it is not available it's no deal at all.


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

Kiddy pools don't make typhoon's either.wouldn't waste your time.


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## high rate of speed (Jan 4, 2008)

No reply in private message Clyde. Keith once told me.can't soar like an eagle when surrounded by vulchers. That post was directed towards him.he caught it.nothing negative.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Seems to me that Randy Oliver *is *a "commercial beekeeper"! And from what I see, Randy actually runs *tests *before he makes judgments as to the efficacy of a process.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And this is what Randy said. "To set the record straight, it was me who researched and wrote the almond pollination articles in ABJ, with Keith's prodding and help in reporting. Keith's the better beekeeper of us two by far, but I hit the keyboard better."

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?194196-almond-articles-amp-accuries-2&p=77962#post77962


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Keith Jarrett said:


> My judge & jury is the commercial keepers that we sell to.


That's great, but the constant rub for people is always hearing you blow the horn about it's greatness, especially against other subs, when its availability is limited, compared to other subs that anyone can get or make. Don't disparage other makes if you can't offer to everyone an alternative.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Barry said:


> That's great, but the constant rub for people is always hearing you blown the horn about it's greatness, especially against other subs, when its availability is limited, compared to other subs that anyone can get or make. Don't disparage other makes if you can't offer to everyone an alternative.


I do offer it to anyone in bulk, most times I only post in the "commercial" section. Today I am loading a truck load for a TX beesource member, it works for them. I also am leaning towards Amazon, where there better suited for small distribution. 

America has turn into a bunch of whiners.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Keith Jarrett said:


> America has turn into a bunch of whiners.


Same in Europe. At least in forums. In real life those people that walk the walk are still there and silently but steadily do what has to be done.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Uh oh, the whining has started!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Keith needs to sell through Winnipeg BeeMaid store  
Until then I've had huge success making my own patties using the Ontario Tech patty mix. I fed nearly 5 lbs to my hives during times of pollen flow. That does not happen here when feeding out of the bag protein supplements


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'm waiting for Chef Isaac to chime in on this one!


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

Keith Jarrett said:


> I am loading a truck load for a TX beesource member


Whomever it is, please contact me. Of course, TX is a big place and they may not be near me.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Ian said:


> Keith needs to sell through Winnipeg BeeMaid store
> Until then I've had huge success making my own patties using the Ontario Tech patty mix. I fed nearly 5 lbs to my hives during times of pollen flow. That does not happen here when feeding out of the bag protein supplements


This one?http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/document/Homemade Protein Patty Recipe_0.pdf


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

I've been feeding 2:1 for a month now, and both my colonies have gained 20-25 lb in that time. What I learned is that you have to feed it fast, or they won't store it. For want of something better, I put 4 mason jars on 3/8" shims, directly on the top bars. They will empty them in about 3 days, depending on the weather. Michael Palmer will use two 1 gallon pails the same way. Works for me.
I also add some homemade essential oil mixture to the syrup. Don't know if it helps, but like the doctors say about vitamin pills, "It can't hurt."


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

mbc said:


> This one?http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/document/Homemade Protein Patty Recipe_0.pdf


Actually no, now that I look back at it. I started from that recipe and came away with this one after a winters chat here on beesource;
20 Brewers 
20 soy
10 fried egg
10 pollen
Cup lemon juice
Cup canola oil
25 HFCS
25 honey (my salvage melter honey)


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Here's a scaled down recipe for Randy Oliver's "Kitchen Sink" substitute. The original can be found on his website.







If you can't read this, PM me and I will email it to you.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I like adding soy, cheapens it a bit


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Ian, are units all in lbs?

HFCS and honey measurement units could be cups????????

Thanks


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

mgolden said:


> Ian, are units all in lbs?
> 
> HFCS and honey measurement units could be cups????????
> 
> Thanks


I weigh it all out except for the oil and juice. Those are just added to help adjust fats and ph
The honey is not practical but I use my left over high quality melter honey... As there is no market for melter honey up here anymore. From my extensive testing I feel my hives are clean. It makes for a great stimulant


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Do you add something against Nosema?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Do you add something against Nosema?


That's the $64000 question.
I have been doing some in house testing of fumagillin which has shown neg results. This fall I went without a nosema treatment, with my hives sitting on 1.9m spores.....might be a long march


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Pollen consumption and likewise pollen supplements can trigger Nosema, especially when feeding late. Instead of fumagillin it may be worth it, to look into Nozevit. As far as I understand it is an extract from oaks. Don't know if common oaks will do it, or it has to be a special oak tree.

So far my tests went without nosema treatments and I had no problems so far. Before I tested another ready-to-buy product and it triggered Nosema during fall feeding. I stopped altogether all fall feedings after that trial. I started new tests with the ontariobee formula and the results are outstanding. Especially the weak hives become very strong and you definitely get fat bees with this recipe. Very interesting to see bees brooding when it is very cold outside.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ian - you might try "Green is for Go" on a few hives to seem if it changes anything. 

Crazy Roland


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Ian said:


> I weigh it all out except for the oil and juice. Those are just added to help adjust fats and ph
> The honey is not practical but I use my left over high quality melter honey... As there is no market for melter honey up here anymore. From my extensive testing I feel my hives are clean. It makes for a great stimulant


Glad you posted that. My melter honey gets fed back to the bees. They seem to like it just fine with no ill effects. But have always been a bit concerned.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland said:


> Ian - you might try "Green is for Go" on a few hives to seem if it changes anything.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Ya I might have to start experimenting with a few natural products 
Ive suspended all fumagillin treatments after my trial results


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## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

Ian said:


> Ya I might have to start experimenting with a few natural products
> Ive suspended all fumagillin treatments after my trial results


I've read that teatree oil is an effective nosema deterant never tried it myself though


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Do you add something against Nosema?


Several years ago I had the bright idea of adding fumigillan to the syrup that I used in pollen sub production.
The next year, I threw away several hundred frames of entombed pollen frames.
My take-away, WITH NO PROOF is that the fumigillan interfered with the bee bread fermentation which caused it to spoil so the bees propolized over all of it.
I never had such a mess before or after. Only the one time I added the stuff.
Never again!


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Several years ago I had the bright idea of adding fumigillan to the syrup that I used in pollen sub production.
> The next year, I threw away several hundred frames of entombed pollen frames.
> My take-away, WITH NO PROOF is that the fumigillan interfered with the bee bread fermentation which caused it to spoil so the bees propolized over all of it.
> I never had such a mess before or after. Only the one time I added the stuff.
> Never again!


Man that really stinks, thanks for the heads up!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

10 fried egg

I wonder if it is necessary to fry the eggs?
Should whole egg yolks or dried egg powder be use instead?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I use dried egg powder. Bees suck down the patties in days.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Roland said:


> "Green


Ian is gonna be the first commercial organic beekeeper in Canada. :thumbsup:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

beepro said:


> 10 fried egg
> 
> I wonder if it is necessary to fry the eggs?
> Should whole egg yolks or dried egg powder be use instead?


Auto correct... Should read dried


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Ian is gonna be the first commercial organic beekeeper in Canada. :thumbsup:


Oh I wish. Roland was referring to Nozevit


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## scituatema (Aug 30, 2014)

Ian said:


> That's the $64000 question.
> I have been doing some in house testing of fumagillin which has shown neg results. This fall I went without a nosema treatment, with my hives sitting on 1.9m spores.....might be a long march


What is the math behind that $64k?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

scituatema said:


> What is the math behind that $64k?


Old game show lol


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Groucho Marx?

Crazy Roland


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

What is the ontariobee formula? If you don't mind sharing.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

marshmasterpat said:


> What is the ontariobee formula? If you don't mind sharing.


It's the one in post #41 of this thread.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

K missed it. Thanks


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