# Mite Counts in Treatment Free Hives



## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Curious about treatment free. 

The premise, as I understand it is that bees can reach a level where they can tolerate / co-exist with Varroa Mites.

Even if you do not treat there are other actions that can be taken to keep mite levels down. Does anyone who is treatment free track the mite counts in their hives? And, if so, what are typical counts on a percent basis?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i've taken a few counts in late summer/early fall using the alcohol wash method but haven't been actually 'tracking' infestation rate. i have been getting 8 - 14% without any obvious ill effect to the colonies. 

winter losses are typically less than 20% and most of those appear to be due to queen failure during the winter when there is no opportunity for supercedure.

i've broken open dozens of drone cells so far this spring during my swarm prevention manipulations and haven't seen any mites yet which is pretty normal for me.

my colonies usually get an extended brood break during our summer dearth, and then start brooding again when/if we get our fall flow.

at that time, i may see a few devitalized drone brood getting removed from the hives and perhaps a few bees with deformed wings, but that usually is pretty short lived and clears up in a week or two.

i'm guessing that the less virulent 'b' form of dwv predominates in my hives, and samples were sent to be part of the study that randy oliver and stephen martin are doing, but i haven't heard back on the results yet.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

my experience sort of mirrors squarepeg's. 
Late summer/fall counts are usually in the 6%-14% range with occasional colony being 0-1% or around 20%.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm in roughly the same general area and some of my bees are from the same source that some of squarepegs bees came from. I just did a mite check on a hive yesterday on a hive that has a queen that I raised early in the 2015 season. She's in her 3rd season. The hive has been continously occupied since I started, and I'm starting my 5th season. She is a daughter of the original TF stock that I got. I have never treated that hive. They had 14 mites in a 1/2 cup alcohol wash. So nearly a 5% infestation. No DWV, no spotty brood. 

I figure a 5% level right now is a very high count, but that hive has never shown ANY mite symptoms. Her hive is a great honey producer too. 

On the other hand, that is the only queen left that I raised in 2015. I don't remember how many queens I reared that year, but I do know that was when I started playing around with grafting. That doesn't mean I raised lots and lots of queens though. IIRC, I raised about 20.

Moral of the story: My bees don't stay mite resistant after the first generation. squarepegs do. I'm quite certain he's a better beekeeper than I have been, which is definitely part of it, but I also know I've got a different drone "pool" to mate my virgin queens with.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

I´ve made sugar roll tests and the results are pretty near what others above said if we consider that sugar roll is only dropping 50% of the alcohol wash. Typical breeder hive has 2-3% infestation (would have been 4-6% with alcohol) and sometimes I have reconed that 5% (would have been 10% with alcohol) is the limit, if above that a colony is in danger to perish in the near future(6 months). I have had hives near 0% and hives with 20% (40%).
I have results mite counts dropping from spring to autumn (May -August in Finland ) in one yard of breeders so that only one hive had moderate increase others (7 hives?) had substantial decrease (up to 90%). Nucs were made from these colonies, but brood frames were divided equally, so even when taken nuc making into consideration there was at least no mite increase during that time.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Brad Bee said:


> but I also know I've got a different drone "pool" to mate my virgin queens with.


You may be able to affect the local gene pool by using foundationless frames in the brood chamber so that your bees can send out drones and increase your genetic footprint. "Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events". Robert Kennedy.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Going tf this season, I tried the cap brood frames mite removal method in a small scale experiment. Then posted my findings here. Infestation is at around 2-3% now in a 3 deep expanding colony. About 30 dead or deformed bees on each hatch cycle in a 90,000-100,000 bee colony. The method I use to keep track of the mite is sampling with a small tweezers on every new bee hatch cycle. Randomly pick up the newly emerged bees about 150 to count the mites on them.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Near 0 in the spring, the 10 % range in fall. The bees are probably controlling mites to some extent, but once this is in place, virus interactions seem to be more important. 

I haven't taken any spring numbers yet this year.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Reading Squarepegs post has given me a thought why some TF bees may work in some areas but not others.

During times with no brood, mite mortality can be high. A demonstration of that could be from SP's mite counts he has said elsewhere that fall mite counts can be as high as 15%, but by spring he finds almost no mites in the hives.

So to my theory. SP's bees have a brood break winter, and mid summer. But after the summer break the mites are able to build up to quite a high level by fall. However this is dealt with during the broodless winter.

In other areas, bees don't have brood breaks. So if TF bees that "work", because mites are sorted during broodless periods, are sent to an area with not brood break, that could destroy the method they use to get rid of mites.

That's all theory of course, I have not done the experiment. But it might be part of the reason a bee will work in one area but not another. And it could be yet another reason why Italians don't work so well, they like raising brood at any opportunity.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> And it could be yet another reason why Italians don't work so well, they like raising brood at any opportunity.


Yep. If that's the case, and if feeding frugal bees during a dearth causes them to continue to make brood during a dearth, then folks with frugal bees who don't treat may be killing their bees by feeding them syrup during a dearth. This would work somewhat against post solstice OTS queens, unless they get a brood break when the cells are made.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmm... Very interesting point. Wonder if that is where all the "sugar is bad" hype originated? IE, someone fed sugar and it worked out bad, but not for the reason the person thought.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Wonder if that is where all the "sugar is bad" hype originated? IE, someone fed sugar and it worked out bad, but not for the reason the person thought.


Ot, I think some folks are predisposed to try to be in control of the outcome and some folks are predisposed to let 'em be, and some folks are in the middle and just want to raise a few bees or make a living at it. Most folks find a system that works with their personality or they just move on to the next hobby. When we have a system that works for us, most of us have a hard time relating to bees or conditions (or personalities for that matter) that are dissimilar to our own and get an agenda or want other folks to see how smart we are or how good we are. Or we're defensive about whether what we are doing is hurting other folks even though we've balanced the concerns and are doing what we need or want to do for ourselves or our families. Or we are just convinced that we're right and we want what we think is best for other folks.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very true.

But what I meant was as per your comment, feeding sugar could cause bees not to take a brood break, and therefore worsen mite issues.

So, someone could have fed sugar in a dearth and the hive got sick because of extra mites. So the person assumed it was the sugar. But it wasn't the sugar itself, it was the lack of a brood break?

It seems to go hand in hand with TF, some folks hold that sugar is little more than white death. But I don't think any treaters claim to have a problem with it. Why? Because they treat for mites, so if bees are stimulated to raise more brood and produce more mites, it is not an issue, but for a TF hive it could be.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> But what I meant was as per your comment, feeding sugar could cause bees not to take a brood break, and therefore worsen mite issues.


I got you. Good point. I was moving on. Speaking of my short attention span, I did try to watch your video, but that slow documentary talk where they seem to stretch out half a page of words to several minutes of video got to me. And I thought I had seen it before. I just couldn't do it. It reflects poorly on me, not on the video. Anyway, we are what we are, so to speak.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> But what I meant was as per your comment, feeding sugar could cause bees not to take a brood break, and therefore worsen mite issues.


That really is a good point. Some of us that don't treat tend to be minimalist or back to nature on other parts of beekeeping. If I see a justification for not doing something to the hives that seems to make sense, I'm on it. And all those not doing this's and not doing that's add up to a pretty simple style of beekeeping. 

On the other hand, not leaving the bees enough of their own honey and feeding them back syrup or fondant doesn't seem quite right to me. Like harvesting cow's milk and making the calves drink something else. I'd probably be a pretty poor dairyman in more ways than one.

All that's, I guess, to say yeah, if I fed during our dearth, I might be in a pickle unless I treated.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I prevented the brood brake last summer with my managements and I´m sure this was to the bee`s disadvantage.

I would like to quote my record:


> 29.07.2016
> 
> Volk hat 7 Brutwaben und ich habe 5 Zellen VSH gesehen.
> 2 Drohnenecken sind neu gestiftet.
> ...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Either you are keeping the gray or yellow bees, they all have a way of handling the mites and diseases if you have
the right kind of bees. The carnis and Italians also have vsh/survivor traits incorporated into them. To be successful at
tf your bees must know how to handle the mites. If not then you have to removed the mite frames along with the cap broods into
another nuc (the mite bee bomb) hive. When they know how to fight the mites then your hive will keep on growing even
through the summer dearth. The Cordovan I have will not stop laying going through the summer dearth. I have to plant for them
every year. Even better is to make splits to give them a brood break to reduce the mite level further over the summer into the late Autumn time. That is when the late young queens get mated. Then they will stay in a 2-5 frame compact brood nest to overwinter. During the early Spring time with minimal mite interference they will build up quickly. Going 4 deep now and continue to grow! You will definitely see a hive crashed in the middle of summer if they don't have a way to keep the mite population down. Then you can truly say that your bees have no resistance. So far I have seen my bees uncap the infected larva. Carry out the newly emerged DWVs bee with mites still on them. Grooming each others when there's nothing else to do but just that. Still I'm not satisfy yet knowing that there are better bees out there I can buy with more resistant trait and color.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

beepro;1535960
To be successful at
tf your bees must know how to handle the mites. Even better is to make splits to give them a brood break to reduce the mite level further over the summer into the late Autumn time. That is when the late young queens get mated. Then they will stay in a 2-5 frame compact brood nest to overwinter. During the early Spring time with minimal mite interference they will build up quickly. Going 4 deep now and continue to grow! You will definitely see a hive crashed in the middle of summer if they don't have a way to keep the mite population down. [/QUOTE said:


> Exactly.
> If you have no brood break in winter AND summer, like we often have here, then the bees must find a way to handle the mites and we must find a way to let them.
> 
> To know what happens you must take records and count mites. But not only phoretic mites, but those in brood too. Carry out spot checks.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

So this topic has drifted off subject. 

My original post was trying to find out what level of mite infestation -- as a percentage of bees sampled, do you beekeepers with surviving treatment free hives have?
So far, apparently few treatment fee beeks sample mite levels. Is that because there is no point in doing so because you won't treat?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

orthoman said:


> So far, apparently few treatment fee beeks sample mite levels. Is that because there is no point in doing so because you won't treat?


i've heard some use that reason, but i think each case is unique and depends on the individual and their circumstances. the cohort of treatment free beekeepers is not homogeneous and i can only speak for myself.

since i was able to start with bees coming with a multi-year track record of doing exceptionally well off treatments (i.e. low losses/good productivity) i found it unnecessary to track infestation rates.

i eventually took some samples to satisfy my own curiosity and as a courtesy to some of the folks here on the forum who were interested.

the few colonies that i samples showed that mite count was not a predictor of overwintering success or the next year's honey production.

if i were starting with less resistant stock and involved in a breeding program aimed at moving that stock toward better resistance i would invest the time to track mite counts.

instead, i use colony longevity, honey production, favorable response to swarm prevention, and heavy propilizing for selection criteria.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

The vast majority of TF beeks in my region are first and second year newbees. (and the vast majority of the newbees are TF). These don't sample mites mostly out of "Ostrich" behavior. They don't want to interrupt the carefully cultivated fantasies with cold, hard facts.

Each year some abandon the dead hives, and are replaced by endless collection of new fantasists.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Thanks for the reply but I am still searching. No offense. I would imagine the cohort of TF beekeepers is not homogeneous and what is treatment free to one, is totally different for another. And does making splits, brood breaks, etc. constitute treatment free? I know, that will probably vary depending upon who you ask. 

Of the criteria that you use, colony longevity and the associated mite levels is what interests me the most, at this point. Storing honey, propilizing and swarming are characteristics of bees and different subspecies - thats what bees do. Surviving Varroa is not necessarily what they can do. I would think, that any long term surviving hives -- that is multiple hives that have survived year after year, would have some steady level of Varroa. Is it usually 10%, 40%, etc. or does it fluctuate.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

orthoman said:


> I would think, that any long term surviving hives -- that is multiple hives that have survived year after year, would have some steady level of Varroa. Is it usually 10%, 40%, etc. or does it fluctuate.


as stated in my post #2 above it appears that my colonies come out of winter with nearly zero infestation which climbs to +/- 10% by late season.

these observations support that the level fluctuates in a manner consistent with randy oliver's model.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> the few colonies that i samples showed that mite count was not a predictor of overwintering success or the next year's honey production.


To me, a study of this in an ongoing, large scale, treatment free operation would be interesting and significant.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I assay mites by opening drone brood in the spring-summer, with occasional sugar counts. In August, I shift to sugar counts. 

My mite numbers (on a whole hive population basis) peak in September. On a per-bee percentage, October. The peak is an order of magnitude more than the May-June baseline. 

The mites that have expanded on prolific drone brood migrate to the worker brood when drone production shuts down in late-August. An unsentimental removal of drones in late summer will dramatically reduce the whole-hive load. 

Creation of late summer splits and the various brood breaks associated with requeening permits the drone brood to be removed in toto. 

My queens tend to lay drone into the foundationless honey frames (which my very lazy bees draw into very large cells). When I find a sheet of drone, I move this up to the far corner of the top super. The drones tend to form a "boys club" on these frames, resting on the frame in enormous numbers until prompted to patrol the neighborhood bar scene. 

I believe isolating the frame within the colony may allow you to reduce the cross infection of mites to the worker cells. The queen will visit the isolated location to refill hatched cells. One risk of this technique is she is often seen crawling across the top bars of the top box, and inadvertant crushing is a possibility.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Maybe this quote from Eric`s blog helps.
He counts for a long time now. His limit is 3%.




> Count and calculate
> 
> You may find 9 mites on your 300 bees (which you DON’T have to count, it’s enough with the calibration done to get an enough good estimation of the mite infestation). That’s 9/300 = 3/100 = 3% infestation. You can find that small or big, depending on when you did the measurement and what you are up to. Maybe you are in the middle of a breeding program for Varroa resistance. Maybe you want to find out when to treat, so you will not treat to late, or making an unnecessary treatment.
> 
> ...


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Squarepeg - I appreciate your response.

It was one of only a couple. It appears from the very few response that actually provided any numbers, that around 10% may be the number. But still, only a couple answers with numbers provided so that isn't much of a sample. 

I was actually hoping that more TF beekeepers were keeping track of mite levels -- as one premise is that they would/should propagate from the hives that can keep the mite numbers low. Or, it doesn't matter what the number is, the bees are resistant to the mites and mite borne diseases. But, if we don't know what the count is, how do you know you are actually propagating form bees that have an ability to control mites or are resistant to mites?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yes, in my case the question remains unanswered as to exactly how my bees are achieving host/parasite equilibrium with varroa.

the possibilities include:

1. mite population is kept below economic threshold

2. pathogens vectored by the mites are less virulent here

3. getting both winter and summer brood breaks is beneficial

4. helpful nutritional factors are being provided by the exceptionally good forage available in my ecoregion

5. avoiding artificial feeds is helping in some way

our winter here is cold enough for a brood break but short enough to make it easy to get to the next season's tree pollens

my guess is that it is all of the above or some combination thereof and perhaps even something we haven't thought about yet.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The situation is complicated by there being different apparent reasons for colonies survival; Some feel that it is due to their bees being able to tolerate rather high mite infestations, and others attribute the survival relates to their bees ability to keep the mite numbers low by various mechanisms such as lowering mites breeding success or physically interfering with them. 

Quite an apparent disconnect but either could be true in different locations.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I do mite counts on a couple of colonies each year to have an idea what my bees are doing. This usually takes the form of counting drone cells with mites. I replace any queens in colonies found with more than 1 per 100 cells opened.

I'm working on improving production and reducing swarming.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> I'm working on improving production and reducing swarming.


I'm working on keeping the bees from taking over my 1 acre yard. 

I did some mite counts last year, during the summer/fall part of season. Ranges were from 0 to 7% What this told me, based on what I'm seeing this year, is absolutely nothing as far as mite count in relation to thriving bee populations/productivity. See SP's list as to why things may be working in my favor. Similar environmental scenarios and management.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> Quite an apparent disconnect but either could be true in different locations.


Or both. Treatment free beekeepers won't know how their bees are surviving if we don't both 1) count mites and 2) allow the hives to reach their terminal level of mite populations.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Riverderwent said:


> Or both. Treatment free beekeepers won't know how their bees are surviving if we don't both 1) count mites and 2) allow the hives to reach their terminal level of mite populations.


Yes, I suppose that both conditions could be occurring in the same yard and ongoing testing would be the only way to know which condition was dominate or a combine of the two was behind the survival mechanism. 

Perhaps it is no surprise that where it does occur it may not be a very robust balance. Admittedly I think there are far too many occasions when the supposed balance between host / victim was more apparent than real. 

I get by quite easily by watching opened drone brood for any sign of a mite. My isolation minimizes mite problems, but with the same bees, but near a large agricultural area in eastern Ontario my son has to keep hard on the mites or the virus knocks hard on winter survival.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You will get an idea of the mite infestation level at every new bee emergence cycle. Let's say you have
100,000 bees in the hive. At orientation flights you saw 20 or so crawlers and DWVs. These are the bees that
the housekeeping bees have not yet remove them from the hive. At high infestation level you will see more crawlers and
DWV bees. So you can have an idea of how many mites are infecting your colony. Obviously the more healthy bees you have the
less mites are in there. At 5% infestation level the colony is not that healthy anymore!


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

Two years ago I told myself I was going to count mites like I should and treat with OA dribble. Never got around to it.
One year ago I told myself I was going to count mites but let it ride and see what happens. Never got around to doing anything other than opening two dozen drone cells in mid-summer. They were fairly lousy with mites. The average was about 2-3 mites per cell with a few that had five.
Now that colony is my strongest one. I opened two dozen drone cells today and didn't see a single mite. 

All this makes me think I should stop thinking about mites and concentrate on other things. This year I'm just going to keep an eye out for DWV. I've never seen it before. 

Orthoman, I'm in the TF camp right now, but its not like I wouldn't treat if I had to. My philosophy is that I'm only TF in the sense that I don't use prophylactic treatments, yet. When the time comes, I will treat, but I'm not pacing back and forth worrying about whether I should treat at 2% infestation or wait until it gets up to 5%. Maybe the truth is that I'm just a lazy cheapskate. I only buy deep hive bodies , foundationless frames, and as little sugar as I think I can get away with.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I can't see counting mites till I have some kind of problim. If I never have a problim, then I will probly never count, If I have too much problim, I will probly start over a differrent way. I find it hard to see the need to know why something is working if it is working and if it is not working, I will probly do a lot of things. I really do not know any reason a person who was not going to sell queens needing to know why his hives are living. If he is selling, he may need to explain what he is selling and maby needs to know those types of things.

My bees might all get sick tomorrow cause I wrote this but I really see no need to know the mite load untill it is causeing a problim with what I am trying to do. Right now swarming seems more important to me.

Does a guy whos hives are living and giving him what he wants really need to know if they are doing it due to living with lots of mites or having bees that keep the mites low?

I look at the bees and look for signs and check the brood nest as best as my very little experiance lets me, but in my mind, seeing the signs of failure at what ever rate that may be and the pain that may cause might be a good way of learning and during such failure might be a good time to add a count. If the bees never fail then I doubt I count.

However, I just love the guys that do count and also relate thier experiances, cause if I ever do need to start, it will be nice to have that base of shared experiance to draw from and not have to start from sctatch even if those experiances are all over the board and really hard to tell what they mean.

I only understand mite counts if you are going to use them to act in some way or to sell something to someone who wants to know before buying.
Cheers
gww

Ps I still like to hear them from people who do count and share.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> Perhaps it is no surprise that where it does occur it may not be a very robust balance. Admittedly I think there are far too many occasions when the supposed balance between host / victim was more apparent than real.


Frank, the situation is dynamic, and we are watching it roll out in real time. I cannot tell how this will play out. Varroa are relentless, but they are pseudo-clonal and, I think, the bees have a better genetic long game. Whatever happens, today's news will become tomorrow's history. Time will tally the scores.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

orthoman said:


> Is it usually 10%, 40%, etc. or does it fluctuate.


I would say from my own experience and from what I have read here that in varroa resistant bees the infestation levels are always under 10%, but fluctuating a lot. How much, depends on the mechanisms of varroa resistance (both bees and environment).





orthoman said:


> I was actually hoping that more TF beekeepers were keeping track of mite levels -- as one premise is that they would/should propagate from the hives that can keep the mite numbers low. Or, it doesn't matter what the number is, the bees are resistant to the mites and mite borne diseases. But, if we don't know what the count is, how do you know you are actually propagating form bees that have an ability to control mites or are resistant to mites?


One major problem is that infestation level itself(one measurement) does not tell anything. It is only the increase rate of mites what is important, and that requires minimum two measurements, one two months apart to get fairly certain differencies in results. My personal experience is that very seldom, if ever, there have some any surprises: a hive looking poor and having troubles has always very high mite count, a hive looking healthy is having a lower mite count. 

Sometimes it has happened that a hive looking very nice is having fairly hign mite count, but because I have had no time to make another count, or the hive has a older queen it needs to be replaced anyway, the value of that information remains small. 

And when the queen is changed, how long should we wait until it is "fair" to take a mite count, so that the mite load from the previous queen does not have an effect? I don´t have the answer.

Specially after that summer when I discovered that mite numbers are actually going down, I lost interest on counting mites and stopped worrying. They can handle them. But as a security measure I have checked mite levels before taking any grafts. Not sure has this had any positive impact.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The mite count from the previous queen's influences depend on how many mites are left until the
new queen start laying again. Starting from the emerged virgin, 3 weeks isn't enough time if there is a heavy
mite infestation. Also it depends on if the QC is inside a no cap brood frames hive or all free running bees hive. The mite
count will be better justified without the cap broods with the newly mated queen. All these variables you can control on your
little bee experiment.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Great postings, thanks!

To watch the phoretic mites is not enough management to estimate the situation IMO.

If brood cells are opened you must open drone cells AND worker cells, not just drone cells. Use different combs. Compare what you see. If mostly drone cells are infested, count the difference between hives. Use for breeding the less infested and thriving ones. If too many worker cells are infested even with drone brood around, this means a non- fighting- mites hive and a balance disturbed between parasite and host situation. Find out, why! Is it the genetics or your managements?

I will start this monitoring from now on. Follow Randy´s and Eric`s advise.

The people here who are tf do not count mites. They watch for DWV. But to me to see crawlers is too late. Bees, which are weak from virus may appear healthy but are short living. Then the hives will die in winter.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

orthoman said:


> I was actually hoping that more TF beekeepers were keeping track of mite levels


Most tf beekeepers are new beekeepers and most new beekeepers are naive about mites.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

>> All the boring and soul-destroying work of counting mites on sticky boards, killing brood with liquid nitrogen, watching bees groom each other, and measuring brood hormone levels---all done in thousands of replications---will someday be seen as a colossal waste of time when we finally learn to let the varroa mites do these things for us.<<<<
Kirk Webster

I don't count mites as the problem doesn't exist. A problem is defined as the presence of enough mites to raise concern. 

There are tight fitting trays under my SBBs that are checked twice a week. They may show 1 or 2 mites. Seeing so few mites is not a problem.

During the early spring i may pull 100 drone larvae to see if there are any mites. If there are any the drone frame is pulled and replaced. My experience is that varroa load up the first drone cells of the year that are removed.

For 3 years i have drone culled for 4 weeks in early spring. This year this practice was stopped for half of my colonies. The plan is to stop all drone culling next year if the colonies dont blow up. Why waste time on varroa if they aren't a problem? 

For those who like to come to the treatment free subforum and talk about how it can't be done, May i be so bold as to mention the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Maybe its your beekeeping practices. How is it I can pull this off TF but others in the area can't?????

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The center of the State, 17 years,14 colonies, SC TF, Sugar only in extreme emergencies.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Seems to me I have to emigrate to Alabama to be so cool about it.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

ToeOfDog said:


> Why waste time on varroa if they aren't a problem?


True enough. 
But if/when they are a problem, what then?
Not pointing fingers at you, or anyone, just asking in general.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> Maybe its your beekeeping practices. How is it I can pull this off TF but others in the area can't?????


Toe, have you detailed your practices in a thread? If not, would you consider doing so in another thread?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> But if/when they are a problem, what then?


Marcin, in that situation, I would look at the practices of folks for whom they were not a problem, particularly those in my area, and do what they have done, _mutatis mutandis_. If there were no folks in my immediate area, then I would look for others in similar landscape and climate zones. I've tried to talk about what I do in several posts in this thread, www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332032-Riverderwent-Survival-Treatment-Free-2017/page4, starting around post no. 134. But that's just me in my area.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Quote Originally Posted by RayMarler View Post
> Large commercial migratory operations close by me (400+ hives 1.75 miles behind me, for one). . Smallish clusters over wintered in double deeps. And not the best location for raising bees for other reasons such as Ag chemicals and mosquito spraying (related to rice growing) and lack of forage.


Sorry Ray, to use your post like that. I wish you the best.

But: what would Kirk do in a situation like that? ( I`m a fan of Kirk, by the way).

Rays situation is even more worse than mine, having neighbors like that.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

SiW...


> Rays situation is even more worse than mine, having neighbors like that.


Though the genetics might not seem that good and the forage not that good and some would cry animal (bug) cruelty, but comercials around seems like a good place to catch a lot of swarms from and let nature weed out the weakest with out a whole lot of money buying bees.

I might be screwed up but if I had comercials around me, I would be catching what I could and the value of the ones that die on me might go down if being replaced at very low cost.
Cheers
gww


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## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

I am starting my third season with my russian bees. When I researched pre-install the info about varroa frightened me. I built my hives with SBB and purchased thymol strips and oxalic acid and vaporizer. I started with two hives. I have religiously kept track of mite drops. The first year one of my hives grew exponentially and had consistently worse counts. When brood season ended those counts got above thresholds for treatment so I treated with thymol. Within an hour the queen and most of the hive swarmed out. I hope they are out there in the woods somewhere. I combined those hives. Since then, my daily drop numbers have never been higher than 5 per day. I made two splits last year, adding a purebred russian to one and letting the other raise their own. The homegrown queen is the best I have in all respects-mites, growth, honey production. I hope to repeat that nick by raising queens from her mother this year. I have always hesitated to claim treatment free because I simply will not intentionally let a colony die if I have the means to save it.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Could be gww. Well we don´t have that opportunity, having no swarms from commercials and being attacked as mite bomb creators if we let nature decide 

So, and because my co- workers find Randy`s approach attractive, I´m happy we found a way to be tf, even if it´s much work to be done. Thymol use excluded after herbhome`s post! Best to you hh.

Kumbaya


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

herbhome



> I have always hesitated to claim treatment free because I simply will not intentionally let a colony die if I have the means to save it.


On the one hand I agree with this but on the other hand, being an optomist and also not knowing what is normal yet, I think I will be taking my hives to the very edge and maby over that edge. The reasons would be because I have seen poeple close that do not treat and am going to take it on faith that it will work. Also though from reading, I have some ideal of things to look for before and after colony failure but will need to see them for myself in real life to reconize them and the stages they happen in.

It goes back to the point that taking mite counts only mean something if you have some standard of measure that you intend to use of them to require you to take action after seeing that standard.

Right now I put no creedence on a standard count that would make me act and so having the count will mean nothing. Too many counts out there and yet bees are still living with those counts.

I am looking for a long term management practice that will eventually take some of the thinking out of it.

Some bees might have to die for me to learn what I am seeing and what the threshold of keeping bees alive are in my neck of the woods. My eventual goals will be to lose less then what is considered normal for a good bee keeper.

If I find that as I see stuff that my actions taken are not making improvement, I may become like those that do one treatment by calender every year religously cause it has made me reach the goal of beating the odds of colony death.

So the goal is not to kill bees but more to see what they can live with on thier own with the least amout of intervention.

I see no way to figure out how to do this with out taking some risk. If the goal was just to keep bees alive by any means, I could pick a proven treatment plan and probly do ok. However if the goals are changed and the ideal is to do the bare minimum, I see no way to find out what that is with out taking some risk.

I can not get there using randys methods cause he sets a threshold of two percent or so and reports here are some getting better after 15%.

I like knowing what they are all doing while I am learning what is working in my area, I will keep those practices in mind while I learn.

In the end though, I have to get there through my own route and some bees may needlessly die but in the end I am hopeing to be where more live then would have had I not learned it as well as I could. Right now, Knock on wood, every thing is going peachy and I should learn something when that changes but may not reconize the change soon enough to save this round of bees but will know what not to do for the next round of bees.

Some bees keep mites low and some live with pretty high counts at least part of the time.

There are too many ways that bees might deal with mites to know how mine deal with them in my area untill it is tried.

I might be treating all my new hives next year but my goal is to try this year for a while and learn.

So the goal is to be good at having bees that live for me but not yet knowing what will get me there.

Mite counts only help in that at the point that when you have them, you intend to act some way on them. That day may come someday but not now.
Cheers
gww


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> Kumbaya


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

gww said:


> but in the end I am hopeing to be where more live then would have had I not learned it as well as I could.


+1


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I dont do mite counts and winter takes care of the ones that can't handle the mites some people look at this as selecting for stronger bees but I also look at it as selecting less virulent mites. I took this picture last week from a colony that started as a 2014 swarm...


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

@ gww
I´m counting to evaluate the queen(s) which I will use to breed from.

And because I´m curious. I don´t think I will use a level with treating except when I see the hive will crash. Then I will act. But I don´t think we have total control about what happens.

@ Harley
Nice! Thanks for sharing!


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> But if/when they are a problem, what then?


 I keep an eye out for any heavily infested colonies and requeen when found. This has worked for 12 years now. I have not had to requeen any colonies from my line because of mites in several years. I brought in some Buckfast queens from Canada which I expect to have problems with varroa therefore am prepared to do some work to re-select for mite resistance over the next 2 years.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

SiW....


> I´m counting to evaluate the queen(s) which I will use to breed from.
> 
> And because I´m curious. I don´t think I will use a level with treating except when I see the hive will crash. Then I will act. But I don´t think we have total control about what happens.


At least you have a plan and a goal and you have to know your area and comunity and then just keep working. I would never second guess what you are doing and would only wish you success. You Know why you want to count and how you intend to use them. If you see when I post, I talk with a lots of "I" in them. Some of that is probly due to self centeredness but some is also that I am putting my views out but only as I understand my views at this point in time. I expect to learn more.

I am glad you lay your plans out. I might find lots of tactics and stuff that I want to emulate.

I do agree with your thinking in that lots of stuff will be out of our control no matter what we do. If we knew it all, we would be god.

I believe what I believe now but my beliefs are for me. Now if I live 20 more years, I may believe one thing enough to really promote it for others to emulate but of course that would require some sort of proof. I know I am new.
Cheers
gww


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I haven't counted mites in years, but the University of Maryland did last year and gave me a report and reported a 1% infestation at about the start of summer. I have trouble finding any on the trays of the SBB in September. I hadn't had time to sell queens so I don't have the last few years reports but here are the counts from the state inspector back to 2004:
http://bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Cheers gww.  I like to justify myself to someone like you because I´m interested in your opinions.

Michael, I have a question to your colonies:

Dee Lusby ( I don´t know her recent managements) once wrote to cull out drone brood if it´s more than 10%. ( IPM) And she told her bees purge the hives two times in summer after the drones are not tolerated anymore in the hives in summer. They do VSH then before breeding winter bees.

You don´t cull drone brood. Do you think the mites in your hive avoid going into worker brood after drone battle? Why? Because the juvenile hormones of the worker brood are less in small cells? 

I don´t know how to ask this respectfully but do they commit suicide or is their production cycle just at the end?


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