# Oxalic Acid Vapor Wiff



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Organic vapor respirator. From about $20 to $50


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> Organic vapor respirator. From about $20 to $50


Here: https://www.amazon.com/3M-Organic-R...&sr=8-4&keywords=respirator+mask+organic+acid


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

The key thing to a correct mask is not the _organic vapor_ canister/filters, they must be *ACID GAS *canisters, The one linked to above is a combo, so it's fine. But both types are also sold separately, so be sure to get *ACID GAS*, not organic vapor ones in that case. 

If you are still feeling any pain or discomfort I think you should see a doctor. My only small exposure (through a leaky seal of my mask) was a short-lived sensation. 

I am very sorry to hear of your exposure. Please get a proper mask before the next treatment. And take the time to get it adjusted to fit correctly, and then check the seal using the inhalation/exhalation tests described in users instructions every single time you put it on.

Hope you feel better this morning.

ETA: I see the linked mask has permanently mounted canisters. I would recommend a similar one but with replaceable canisters. They are a bit more costly to start, but cheaper in the long run. I change my cannisters every year in the late summer/ early fall when I start to OAV in earnest for the year. The standard for the replacement interval (according to the manufacturer) is about a year, or _whenever the mask stops working and you get a whiff of the chemical_ while wearing the mask. I keep a factory-sealed replacement set of canisters on hand, just in case. The $10-12 cost is nothing compared to always having an effective mask on hand. 

Enj.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Removed duplicate post.


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## pinkpantherbeekeeper (Feb 10, 2016)

3M 7800 mask new, $150 ($135 if you get the one month free membership and cancel)

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...ull-face-respirator-series-7000-new?a=2049496

Just ordered one and should be here today. $225+ on Amazon. From everything I have read you dont "need" a full mask but for the price its not a bad deal to consider.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Reef Resiner said:


> So i got my first wiff of oxalic acid vapor. Thought i was being extra cautious but nope. I think it was a small wiff, it basically took my breath away for a few seconds. Not much coughing. Got a bit of chest pain now. How fast do you guys shake the symptoms from this stuff?


Can't help you with this one since I wear a proper respirator.


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## Planner (Apr 3, 2016)

You are probably one of hundreds that will be exposed to this chemical for various reasons. The short and long term health impacts are not known at this time. Preserving the health of our bees is important but also preserving your health should take priority. If you choose to use this chemical you should determine what is the best protection as others have mentioned in this thread and use it. I respond here only because I have chosen not to use it. As a hobby bee keeper my health comes first and the bees come second, even if that means I will not be able to effectively deal with mites. Then again there is no guarantee that OA will resolve the problem either. Your exposure should be a warning of the potential problems associated with chemical applications, and I hope you and others that have been or will be exposed to OA do not have any future adverse health problems. I am an old man and I can assure you that you will develop some serious health issues as you age, but why increase the risk? Speaking for only myself it isn't worth the risk.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

If treating is a must. And oxalic acid is the treatment of choice. Dribbling is a much safer and easier method to get oxalic inside a hive when compared to fuming.

The ability to fume when hives can't be opened, seems to be its only advantage over dribbling.

The cost of a small scale is just a fraction of that for a good respirator!


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

The US label REQUIRES the use of a respirator. I know OAV has been flogged on Bee Source as being one of those things where if you are careful, you should be ok. Famous last words. If you use OAV, you are applying a pesticide, and you need to take it seriously.


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## usngunr (Feb 21, 2013)

Not a pesticide. It is vaporized acid and should be given more respect. Acid will destroy tissue. Lung tissue doesn't like to regenerate. 

Breathing OAV would be like a lifetime of smoking, on steroids.

Suit up.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

usngunr said:


> Not a pesticide.


Incorrect. http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf


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## usngunr (Feb 21, 2013)

I don't argue semantics.

Regardless of the labeling on the package, it is stilll an acid and should be treated accordingly.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

To answer the question probably 12 hours if you're in good health and not a big breath. I was doing it this week in 98 degree heat. I lasted about ten minutes with the full suit, respirator and rubber gloves. situated my battery as far away from the hive being done. stayed 20 feet away from that until I stopped seeing the smoke then unhooked the battery and let it sit another 5 or so min. worked fine till the last one wind kicked up and I got a gulp of it. not pleasant to say the least. I got my respirator at hd and it works fine when used properly.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Planner said:


> You are probably one of hundreds that will be exposed to this chemical for various reasons. The short and long term health impacts are not known at this time.


The health effects are quite well known. 

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng0529.html


http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0474.html


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

BWrangler said:


> If treating is a must. And oxalic acid is the treatment of choice. Dribbling is a much safer and easier method to get oxalic inside a hive when compared to fuming.
> 
> The ability to fume when hives can't be opened, seems to be its only advantage over dribbling.
> 
> The cost of a small scale is just a fraction of that for a good respirator!


I have only treated against mites with OAV so got a couple of questions. You stated that dribbling is safer and easier. Safer for you or your bees? By easier do you mean less time or ....? I thought dribbling required lots of measuring and mixing and time to open hives and temps had to be a certain level.

OAV has been safe for me since I have followed all the directions and used the correct equipment thus to answer the OP's question I do not know since I have not inhaled any fumes.


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## razerback55 (Apr 12, 2015)

Off Randy Olivers ScientificBeekeeping.com, The reason the Europeans decided upon the dribble method, rather than spraying, is so that you don’t have any chance of inhaling droplets in the air (oxalic acid, unlike formic, does not make fumes). That only leaves two ways for it to get into your system: by drinking it (it would take about 3 cups of the 3.5% solution to kill you), or by absorbing it through your skin (the amount of OA that you squirt on one colony is about the same as Popeye would have gotten in a serving of spinach). If you spill OA syrup on your skin you may feel a slight burning sensation until you rinse it off. You likely eat more OA in vegetables and tea than you’ll ever absorb through your skin from dribbling. Indeed, your own body produces OA as a normal breakdown product of excess vitamin C! 

Looks like this way is the safest way to treat


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

My vaporizer is on a long cord with a switch 15' from the pan, which allows me to stay away from the hive while administering the OAV. I light my smoker and stand upwind. Super simple and works perfect.

You gotta do what makes you comfortable, though.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

That mil. spec. mask - the $150 one - is way more than you need. It's needed for offensive military poison gases that are much different (though it does work with the right canisters for OAV.) 

You need a simple, half-face 3M mask (plus goggles) that you can buy on Amazon with acid gas canisters for less than $50. You also need the self discipline (and common sense) to wear it every single time, even on hot days. If it's too darn hot, then pack it in and come back at dawn. 

Enj.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

After comparing specs I decided to try a mask from Harbor Freight. It was $17 at the time, minus a 20% coupon. It's rated for p95. So far I've had no issues and have been directly in a cloud of vapor due to sudden wind change.

http://m.harborfreight.com/p95-maintenance-free-dual-cartridge-respirator-large-67727.html


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Some examples of OAV'ing a hive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_XVKpyDQgQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQp9pdAOjdo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRVtn9C0PoM


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

DrJeseuss said:


> After comparing specs I decided to try a mask from Harbor Freight. It was $17 at the time, minus a 20% coupon. It's rated for p95. So far I've had no issues and have been directly in a cloud of vapor due to sudden wind change.
> 
> http://m.harborfreight.com/p95-maintenance-free-dual-cartridge-respirator-large-67727.html


That respirator mask is for particulate matter like dust, will not prevent acid gas like oxalic acid. What you need is a good acid gas cartridge and a combination particulate filter helps also. 3M 60922 is perfect https://www.amazon.com/3M-Cartridge...=UTF8&qid=1469309056&sr=8-1&keywords=3m+60922
And then some kind of mask plus goggles or facemask like these: 
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Respirato...&qid=1469309350&sr=8-5&keywords=3m+respirator
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Comfort-F...qid=1469309398&sr=8-25&keywords=3m+respirator
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Respirato...e=UTF8&qid=1469309940&sr=8-1&keywords=3m+6800
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Respirato...r=8-1&keywords=3m+respirator+facepiece+ff-403
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Full-Face...9654&sr=8-34&keywords=3m+respirator+facepiece

If you're cheap like me search ebay for whatever model number you want and get it half off or used.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-6900-Ful...770555?hash=item33bb9a197b:g:xKAAAOSwwo1XdoES
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-Respirat...601505?hash=item3d1f07abe1:g:NtkAAOSwhOVXfbXh


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

They say Europe has been using OAV for many years ...20? ...evidence of risk from long term use should bee recorded from that area. Anyone have that info?


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## Planner (Apr 3, 2016)

Am I correct that none of these folks on the 3 UTube videos used any protection?
Hope I am wrong. 


shinbone said:


> Some examples of OAV'ing a hive:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_XVKpyDQgQ
> 
> ...


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Planner said:


> Am I correct that none of these folks on the 3 UTube videos used any protection?
> Hope I am wrong.


Why do you hope you are wrong?


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## Planner (Apr 3, 2016)

Just thought bee keepers were smart, or at least that is what I used to think.


shinbone said:


> Why do you hope you are wrong?


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## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

Planner said:


> Am I correct that none of these folks on the 3 UTube videos used any protection?
> Hope I am wrong.


I'm with you. How about the flimsy face mask that Mann Lake sends your vaporizer, what is that for? I am not feeling really confident about the mask I bought any more.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XBFJP2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
If I attach these cartridges will I be alright?
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Cartridge...=UTF8&qid=1469309056&sr=8-1&keywords=3m+60922


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Just gotta be smart enough to stand upwind when vaporizing.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Margot1d said:


> I'm with you. How about the flimsy face mask that Mann Lake sends your vaporizer, what is that for? I am not feeling really confident about the mask I bought any more.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XBFJP2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> If I attach these cartridges will I be alright?
> https://www.amazon.com/3M-Cartridge...=UTF8&qid=1469309056&sr=8-1&keywords=3m+60922


Yes, the 60922 would be the best.


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## John Scifres (Mar 25, 2014)

P95 is not an acid gas respirator. The P in P95 indicates a particulate respirator. The 95 means it removes 95% of small particles. 

As indicated above, buy an ACID GAS respirator. This is not the time for creativity and experimenting.


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## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

shinbone said:


> Just gotta be smart enough to stand upwind when vaporizing.


This is the reason that forums like this are dangerous. OAV seems to be uncharted territory and people read statements like this and get exposed like the OP. People who make youtube videos where they don't even mention protecting themselves are irresponsible.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

John Scifres said:


> P95 is not an acid gas respirator. The P in P95 indicates a particulate respirator. The 95 means it removes 95% of small particles.
> 
> As indicated above, buy an ACID GAS respirator. This is not the time for creativity and experimenting.


Still not quite that simple. it is 95% of particles down to a certain size. By the way the smaller the particles the more hazardous they are to your lungs. That should stir things up. OA is vaporized and remains a gas for only a fraction of a second. it then solidifies back into a particle. a very tiny particle.

Filters also are rated by Merv rating. Merv 8 for example removes 45-50% of the particles. Merv 10 55-60% Merv 13 65-70% etc. you advance all the way up to Hepa which filters out 99.97% of all particles down to a 3 micron size. Considered pure air. Acid gas canisters would be used in cases where you have acids vaporizing at room temperatures. Such as Hydrocloric acid. In other words acidic fumes that remain fumes. Since in this case you could be arguably dealing with both. I would use a canister that does both. I would not go buy the cheapest respirator available and assume it is working. if you smell something. the mask is not working.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Meanwhile in tf land...

Be safe


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Why is it that the TF folks that demand treatment advice stay out of their threads. Find it okay to poke there head into every conversation about treating? Demonstrate the behavior you are asking of others. Otherwise you are asking others to do something you are not willing to do yourself.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

my 2 cents fwiw:
whether you use a respirator or not you always stand upwind of the treatment area. yup, wind at your back, simple.
otherwise it's like pissin' into the wind. 
people have the same discussion when using their smokers. everything is soooo difficult.

utube is not a source of reliable information or beekeeping techniques. 

because it seems so difficult for so many people I'm thinking of offering a 'treatment service' for their bees. maybe some good money in it. there is a reason why apiary management services have become popular. some aren't cut out for it. 

why is there such a desire to complicate everything "bee"? success can be had by keeping it simple, and mountains do not need to be made of every mole hill. 

beekeepers need to be proficient in many disciplines. it helps if one comes into keeping bees with some of those proficiency's 
from other life experiences. 
it's not as easy as many think and takes a good long time to learn effective methods.


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

many of my colonies are near ac hookup....I create my own "downwind" with a fan ...and distance .but still need to get near the action to retrieve and reboot


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## cervus (May 8, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> why is there such a desire to complicate everything "bee"? success can be had by keeping it simple, and mountains do not need to be made of every mole hill.


My *new* philosophy exactly. My professional background required me to analyze everything to the nth degree. Add that to my personality, and I am the definition of over-analyzing. Beekeeping should be enjoyable. The bees are just bees. They do bee things on bee time and in bee places. I'm slowly realizing letting them be bees D) and learning from them is much easier on me as well as the bees. They won't listen to anything I tell them anyway. Never have, never will.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

cervus said:


> My *new* philosophy exactly. My professional background required me to analyze everything to the nth degree. Add that to my personality, and I am the definition of over-analyzing. Beekeeping should be enjoyable. The bees are just bees. They do bee things on bee time and in bee places. I'm slowly realizing letting them be bees D) and learning from them is much easier on me as well as the bees. They won't listen to anything I tell them anyway. Never have, never will.


I have worked in the environmental field long enough to have logged over 400 hours of safety training. A good portion of it being PPE, respirator use, fit testing, and cartridge selection. To this day, I cant walk into my kitchen without performing a mental hazard assessment (are there boiling pots on the stove, sharp knives on the counter, location of fire extinguisher, food left out on the counter, etc.). I do the same whenever I approach my bee yard. It does not mean that I always take proper precautions, but at least I am aware of the potential hazards. Simply identifying potential problems before hand solves 99% of the problems from actually occurring.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Everything is safe untill it goes wrong and some people have not yet learned how dangerous it can be to offer advice.


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## John Scifres (Mar 25, 2014)

Brushy Mountain gets the oxalic from Reagents Inc. If you want to see the SDS (Safety Data Sheet), go here: http://www.reagents.com/techsupport/sds/search?SDS=1-11050.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Margot1d said:


> OAV seems to be uncharted territory . . .


Not true. OAV has been used in Europe for decades with no ill affects to humans, no hives going up in flames, no hazmat suits required for simple applications. Basic common sense has worked fine for a long time. Everyone is free to OAV however they want, but there is no _need_ to now suddenly make it super complicated.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

In europe there are very few people who use vaporizer.

OA is a natural substance which is quite harmless in a solution but can be really hazardous in vapor form. Its not the compound it self that is toxic its its acidic properties - in that sense you can compare it to hydrochloric acid and lye. None of those are toxic per se. but their acid and alkalic properties make them hazardous. If you mix lye and hydrochloric acid 1:1 you get salt water which is harmless and "drinkable"....


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Pondulinus said:


> In europe there are very few people who use vaporizer.
> 
> OA is a natural substance which is quite harmless in a solution but can be really hazardous in vapor form. Its not the compound it self that is toxic its its acidic properties - in that sense you can compare it to hydrochloric acid and lye. None of those are toxic per se. but their acid and alkalic properties make them hazardous. If you mix lye and hydrochloric acid 1:1 you get salt water which is harmless and "drinkable"....


O my!


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

What?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Pondulinus said:


> In europe there are very few people who use vaporizer.
> 
> OA is a natural substance which is quite harmless in a solution but can be really hazardous in vapor form. Its not the compound it self that is toxic its its acidic properties - in that sense you can compare it to hydrochloric acid and lye. None of those are toxic per se. but their acid and alkalic properties make them hazardous. If you mix lye and hydrochloric acid 1:1 you get salt water which is harmless and "drinkable"....



Wow! A little chemistry can be a very bad thing. 

OA ingestion is not harmless in solution. According to the CDC is causes: Sore throat. Burning sensation. Abdominal pain. Vomiting. Drowsiness. Shock or collapse. Convulsions.


OA, HCl, and NaOH are all toxic by definition:
tox·ic
ˈtäksik/
_adjective_
adjective: *toxic*


*1*. 
poisonous.

synonyms:poisonous, virulent, noxious, deadly, dangerous, harmful, injurious, pernicious"toxic houseplants"




antonyms:harmless

relating to or caused by poison.
very bad, unpleasant, or harmful.


1:1, by what measure? If you are going to drink a solution HCl + NaOH had had better mix it on a molar basis and have a pH meter ready.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

"Harmless and drinkable." I think that was the last thing Jim Jones' followers heard.

Alex


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Hehe well i did not say you should drink the oa solution, but as far as treatment goes you would have a hard time injuring yourself with a solution of OA and sugarwater. Also, kidney and bladder stones is mainly made up of calsium oxalate which again is not toxic. As i said, oxalic acid is not intrisically toxic, it is its acidic properties that makes it hazardous.

No, hydrochloric acid and lye does not have any toxic properties other than their acidic and alkaline nature. What this mean is that it is not harmfull if nutralized with regards to pH. For instance: If you mix hydrochloric acid and lye in a 1:1 mole ratio you will get a solution containing only water and table salt. I did not sugest anyone should try to mix this at home and drink - what would be the point of risking injury for salt water.. In contrast, hydrofluoric acid is really toxic not so much because it is an acid but because of fluoride's reactivity.

My point is that when you breath the OA vapor youre lung get damaged by the acidity of the vapor, not the OA itself - you could just as well be breathing in the vapor of another acid. 

So the effect of OA on the human body if not an "uncharted" area. Its the effect of an acid on the human body....

Edit: crystals in wine is mainly made up of tartarate not sodium oxalate.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Saying that it is not oxalic acid that is harmfull it is just that it is an acid! I could say that 5 grains of smokeless gunpowder would be harmless to ingest and that it is only when decomposed in a limited space that it can be deadly. Technically correct but rather an obscure analogy. You say in another post that one has to be careful about the advice they give on the internet! Hmmm......!


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Yes i agree that the gunpowder analogy is obscure;-) Margot1d thinks OA is uncharted territory with regards to the effects on the body, I think its not as its the acidity of OA that is hazardous. This also makes it much more hazardous to breath OA vapor than to handle an OA solution used to treat against mites (dribeling).
Also, shinbone thinks that any adverse effects would have surfaced by now as we have been using OA treatment in europe for a long time, but as i said, in europe most beeks have been using OA dribeling as a treatment against mites. So its not the same.

I have not given any advice, i am just saying that dribeling OA involves less risk than OA vaporization. And I think its sad that some people give other people advice to skip the protective gear "because its not dangerous if you just do it like this". You are then only one gust away from an injury you might not recover from.

If you spill acid or lye on your skin you can easily neutralize with water, if you breath acid vapor/dust, your in trouble.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Pondulinus said:


> No, hydrochloric acid and lye does not have any toxic properties other than their acidic and alkaline nature. What this mean is that it is not harmfull if nutralized with regards to pH. In contrast, hydrofluoric acid is really toxic not so much because it is an acid but because of fluoride's reactivity.
> 
> My point is that when you breath the OA vapor youre lung get damaged by the acidity of the vapor, not the OA itself - you could just as well be breathing in the vapor of another acid.


So by your logic mercury is not toxic other than brain, kidney, and lung damage. 

Also, flouride is not very reactive.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Staying out of the OA vapor is the safest way to avoid injury. Relying on various pieces of equipment that can malfunction, or not be rated for the use, have expired or used-up cartridges, or be put on wrong, or not fit properly, etc., is not the safest procedure, and it is misleading inexperienced users into a false sense of security to say otherwise.

Look at this very thread; there are multiple people all advising using different types of cartridges for a face mask. Are you going to trust your lungs to a filter cartridge recommended by some anonymous person on the internet? Stay out of the fumes is what I am saying. And, if that is too hard, the beek _should_ stick with dribbling.




.


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## ritan1 (Nov 10, 2015)

This is not an either/or situation. Like most things in life, it is the combination of elements that keep us safe. Of course, you should stay out of the OA vapors, but there may be a situation where it is unavoidable - the wind suddenly shifts, you trip into the cloud, you have to suddenly remove the wand from the hive, etc. Stuff happens, and you should be prepared for it. You should be prepared by making sure you have the proper protective equipment, properly fitted, and properly used. Nothing in life is absolutely safe, but we know more than enough about OAV to know what is required to be safe. The problem is not in the knowing, it is in the doing.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Mercury not toxic?.... Dont you see that what im trying to say is that its the acidity of the OA vapor that hurts you and not OA it self? That makes its effects general enough to predict and the symptoms simmilar to the exposure of any other acid vapor. The oxalate ion is not toxic. 

And btw. Mercury hurts you in more ways than kidney lungs and brain.

Fluoric acid is quite reactive which is how it easily dissolves stuff like stones and bodyparts and is used to etch glass. Its properties has little to do with it being an acid.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

_" . . . the wind suddenly shifts,_ . . . " I don't treat on gusty days._

" . . . you trip into the cloud,_ . . . "  I stand 10 feet away from the hive being treated. No chance of tripping into the cloud. Plus, the hive is well sealed so there is no cloud of OAV._

". . . you have to suddenly remove the wand from the hive, . . . _" Ah yes, the 'ol "your hive is going to burn down if you don't wear a face mask and gloves and a respirator" scare tactic. Nicely played. Myself, I will cut power to the vaporizer before going close to the hive. This removes any putative fire hazard faster than running up to the hive and yanking out the still-heating wand, as well as stops production of OA vapors in a few seconds. What are you going to do with a still-heating wand lying in front of your hive pouring out OAV? Yeah, that sounds safe to me. Plus, cutting power from a safe distance is much safer than relying on a mask bought on Amazon with a filter cartridge recommended by joe-anonymous to walk into the cloud of vapors.

Pondulinus - First you say the effects of OAV on humans is not well know because it hasn't been used much; then you say the effects are of OAV are well know because it is an acid and the effects of acids are well-known. You can't have it both ways, so which is it - known or unknown?

I am now starting to repeat myself and will stop. People are free to OAV however they want. And, if someone wants to wear certain protective gear, then they should do whatever they feel is best for them. But hopefully, new users realize that staying out of the vapors is at least a safety option (and the best safety option, IMHO) to consider when OAVing a hive.

JMHO




.


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## ritan1 (Nov 10, 2015)

I think you are (intentionally?) missing my point. Of course, staying out of the vapors is the first order of business; protective gear or not, that is a given. But I am a belt and suspenders type of person. I am an excellent driver, but I still wear my seat belt.

I'm glad your life is that predictable. Mine is not. The wind here changes direction and goes from zero to sixty faster than a Porsche. I (and others) do actually make missteps near my hives. I screw up; accidents happen. $50 of back-up protective gear makes sense in a world where ridiculous stuff happens all the time and the consequences are serious. BTW, I do keep a bucket of water near my hive at all times.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Pondulinus said:


> Mercury not toxic?.... Dont you see that what im trying to say is that its the acidity of the OA vapor that hurts you and not OA it self? That makes its effects general enough to predict and the symptoms simmilar to the exposure of any other acid vapor. The oxalate ion is not toxic.
> 
> And btw. Mercury hurts you in more ways than kidney lungs and brain.
> 
> Fluoric acid is quite reactive which is how it easily dissolves stuff like stones and bodyparts and is used to etch glass. Its properties has little to do with it being an acid.


Here is a picture of a tub of OA. My eyes are not so good, so can you what the small print says on the bottom; next to the skull and crossbones? I think it says something about being *fatal if **swallowed.*










Here is a pic of a jar of sodium hydroxide that I got for making soap. Again, my eyes are not so can you tell me what it says next to the skull and crossbones?










You are failing in your basic chemistry terms. You said that flouride is reactive. It isn't. And I called you out on it. Then pull a quick change act and switch to flouric acid as being reactive, which it is. Your confusion of flouride, flourine, flouric acid, and hydro flouric acid makes me think that you are not the most reliable source for safety information with regards to chemicals.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Here is a jug of hydrochloride acid that I have in my garage. My memory isn't so good anymore, but I am pretty sure the label said "Danger Posion!", before it peeled off and dissolved form the fumes after opening the bottle.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I think if someone can't figure out the correct cartridge for OA vaporizing from the description of the item, then I think they should not be using chemicals or devices that get hot enough to start a fire.

If you are not suggesting someone should drink something, perhaps you shouldn't use words such as "drinkable". People are very susceptible to suggestion and looking for someone to blame for their own foolishness. 

Alex


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## Planner (Apr 3, 2016)

You are correct. But we are wasting our time with the folks who probably can't understand the issue. One day they will show up at a doctors office and realize what a horrible mistake they made and then it will be too late. By the way their bees will also have died by then. The lingering adverse health affects will remain with the beekeeper. Soon there will be another product and then everyone will comment about the health problems from OA and why the new product is safer. And then after that there will be another product and another product and so on. So in the mean time if someone wants to ruin their health go at it.


AHudd said:


> I think if someone can't figure out the correct cartridge for OA vaporizing from the description of the item, then I think they should not be using chemicals or devices that get hot enough to start a fire.
> 
> If you are not suggesting someone should drink something, perhaps you shouldn't use words such as "drinkable". People are very susceptible to suggestion and looking for someone to blame for their own foolishness.
> 
> Alex


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Nabber86: If you would read more closely you would see that i said its the fluoride in fluoric acid that is reactive - in other words it is the F- rather than the H+ that does the damage. If you dont know your chemistry, H+ is the acid part... If by fluoride your thinking sodium flouride, you are correct that itis not very reactive due to fluoride's affinity for sodium. 

In the opposite case: OA which is one of the more acidic of the weak acids consists of the relative harmless oxalate ion and two hydrogen cations (H+ - the acidic part) It is this acid part that makes OA hazardous, not the Oxalalate and therefore the symptoms of exposure are simmilar to that of most other brønsted acids which anion is not toxic. You can therefore accurately estimate the effects it has on the body and cannot say ir is unchartered territory, as margot1d did. 

I have never said that either lye ot hydrochloric acids is harmless. What i said was that its like OA - the acidity and alkalic propertiea is what makes it dangerous, its not poisonous in its self. And as strong acids and bases like HCl and lye is really hazardous, ofc you would see warning labels on the box.

Do you undrestand me now? 

Shinbone: You basically said that vaporizing OA is not that dangerous as they have been doing it in europe for a long time. But we dont vaporize OA, we drible OA solution and thats a huge difference! If you use goggles the biggest risk you face is getting the solution on your skin - you wash it away when it burns and maybe, if you are unlucky you will get a rash for a day or two. Breathing acid vapors can ofc. Be a million times worse.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Alex: you are correct.


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## Joe Mac (Jun 1, 2016)

I believe we have just about beat this horse to death. Bottom line is, if you use OAV to treat your bees with, #1 always stay upwind when vaporizing, #2 always wear a respirator approved for organic vapors, #3 wear eye protection. If the wind suddenly shifts and you're in the path of the OAV, then the respirator will protect you from the vapors. I understand it's the low PH of the acid that causes damage to human tissues and not any other chemicals or metals in the OA that is harmful to humans. If the PH of the OA is raised towards the middle of the PH scale (0-14) with sodium hydroxide (common household lye) or soda ash (another common acid neutralizing agent), then it becomes almost harmless, although I wouldn't recommend drinking it. Lye is very alkaline and has a high PH which also causes burns to the skin and is harmful if vapors are inhaled. It is a very common chemical and is used in making the soap that we use every day. 

USE COMMON SENSE, but I realize that common sense is not as common as it used to be.


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQp9pdAOjdo

based on some threads above the Fatbeeman is in serious trouble.....and if he's not....someone is blowing smoke...we shall see


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## Joe Mac (Jun 1, 2016)

Some of the stuff you see on YouTube is posted by some really stupid, careless people. I see people showing how to make beekeeping wooden ware and run their fingers within a fraction of an inch or so of the blade. Not me, I want to keep my fingers. As for the Fat Bee Man, I think he knows a lot about bees, but he puts out enough hot air to vaporize the OA without the aid of a vaporizer. Oh and by the way, make a contribution to him if you watch his videos. LOL

JMO


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

If FBM has no health issues after using OAV ....someone else is blowing smoke .. just saying


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## pinkpantherbeekeeper (Feb 10, 2016)

Joe Mac said:


> Some of the stuff you see on YouTube is posted by some really stupid, careless people. I see people showing how to make beekeeping wooden ware and run their fingers within a fraction of an inch or so of the blade. Not me, I want to keep my fingers. As for the Fat Bee Man, I think he knows a lot about bees, but he puts out enough hot air to vaporize the OA without the aid of a vaporizer. Oh and by the way, make a contribution to him if you watch his videos. LOL
> 
> JMO


:thumbsup:


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Pondulinus said:


> Shinbone: You basically said that vaporizing OA is not that dangerous as they have been doing it in europe for a long time. But we dont vaporize OA, we drible OA solution and thats a huge difference!


Evaporateur varrox, Sublimox, Difoxal, Sublimateur pro d acide oxalique
http://www.icko-apiculture.com/fr/au-rucher/hygiene-de-la-ruche/acide-oxalique.html


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Joe Mac said:


> Some of the stuff you see on YouTube is posted by some really stupid, careless people. I see people showing how to make beekeeping wooden ware and run their fingers within a fraction of an inch or so of the blade. Not me, I want to keep my fingers.
> JMO


Having cut half through one of my thumbs, once, during a moment's inattention, I'd say that this cutting remark is a sharp observation.


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## Joe Mac (Jun 1, 2016)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Having cut half through one of my thumbs, once, during a moment's inattention, I'd say that this cutting remark is a sharp observation.


Bad BeeKeeper, 
I like the "sharp observation" comment. 
Was that you that I saw in the YouTube video, BEFORE your discovery that the blade will cut flesh?  I admit I do use my table saw without a guard. I personally think the guard can cause accidents instead of preventing them, but I do use a push stick when making cuts that could cause me to lose a finger or two.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Here is a picture how I am doing sublimation. (risk for inhaling OA fumes is low)
http://imgur.com/hgesiAy


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I would stay away from the dribble method with OA unless you don't mind loosing brood. OAV & some common sense goes a long way. I have done about 45 OAV & some last fall. something like 5 hives per week for about 4 weeks. I used the 3M 2097 filter for organic vapors...

http://www.shop3m.com/3m-particulat...with-nuisance-level-organic-vapor-relief.html

https://www.amazon.com/3M-6391-P100..._SR160,160_&psc=1&refRID=27XBM2517D41PH4P1SVY

This is not meant to be a SCUBA or full on HAZMAT setup. I use this filter for staying away from Formic acid fumes and OAV fumes in case I happen to get in the fume stream....It also is nice sometimes not to breath in smoker smoke all the time. I mostly use this slim line 3M respirator for MIG welding in the garage when making stuff becuase those metal fumes are good to breath in either. So all this tlak about spending hundreds of dollars to deal with nusance vapors is BS. First pick your filter, then buy the respirator part at LOWES. easier and cheaper isn't the way to go when using oxalic acid. Spend the money on the vaporizer from bedillionfarms or brushy.

I fergit,


BWrangler said:


> If treating is a must. And oxalic acid is the treatment of choice. Dribbling is a much safer and easier method to get oxalic inside a hive when compared to fuming.
> 
> The ability to fume when hives can't be opened, seems to be its only advantage over dribbling.
> 
> The cost of a small scale is just a fraction of that for a good respirator!


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Making (OAV) treatment more safe is also option.


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieAzrgZgttY

Fatbeeman is not the only one not using a filter ...this guy sounds English...where they don't use vapor. he does cough a little.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Experienced bee keeper can easily avoid OA fumes. At a first smell of OA he can hold a breath, and walk to the fresh ear area.
Not much fumes escape from beehive, but leaving the place and coming back in 5 minutes is better way for avoiding OA fumes. 
And there is the difference doing a treatment on 2 beehives or 200 or more.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

viesest said:


> Experienced bee keeper can easily avoid OA fumes. At a first smell of OA he can hold a breath, and walk to the fresh ear area.


Yeah, until the day there is an inversion and you find the entire area saturated with layers of acid vapor.

Experienced beekeepers can avoid risk entirely by using proper safety equipment. Not using it puts you in the running for a Darwin Award.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Yeah, until the day there is an inversion and you find the entire area saturated with layers of acid vapor.


That is the point about what I want to make discussion.
Photos in my previous post show that sublimator does not have to be powered during sublimation.
A preheated piece of aluminium can do the job. This is somehow related to quicker and more safe OAV treatment.
Safety equipment should be used and in addition to that trying to make treatment more safe is also good.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Yeah, until the day there is an inversion and you find the entire area saturated with layers of acid vapor.
> 
> Experienced beekeepers can avoid risk entirely by using proper safety equipment. Not using it puts you in the running for a Darwin Award.


1/2 a teaspoon quite saturates 4 cubic feet of hive space, but come on now, saturating the entire area? Due care and diligence is one thing, catastrophisation is another. 

I dont think Fatbeeman does justice to the seriousness and I also think such rhetoric as the quoted post is less than helpful in the big picture. Overstating can hurt the message!

I can get by with a few hives by using long leads and remote connection. If I had many hives to do I could work much more efficiently with full respirator as I could then work close and continuously and by prepping the next hive as the one is being fumed, or using a number of evaporators simultaneously. 

If I had employees or other people involved I would insist *everyone* had a proper fitted respirator with the correct cartridge.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

A full face 3m respirator with organic vapor cartridge has thus far worked for me, although I do not stick around when vaporizing.

So, do I have the wrong cartridge? Do I need an acid gas cartridge?


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

tanksbees said:


> I do not stick around when vaporizing.
> 
> So, do I have the wrong cartridge? Do I need an acid gas cartridge?


You should taste OA fumes. As Pondulinus noted OA fumes are harmful because they are acid, and are not otherwise toxic.
Take care you are not inhaling a lot of fumes at once, or relatively small amount in prolonged time. Inhaling few for tasting is just informative.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

viesest said:


> You should taste OA fumes. As Pondulinus noted OA fumes are harmful because they are acid, and are not otherwise toxic.
> Take care you are not inhaling a lot of fumes at once, or relatively small amount in prolonged time. Inhaling few for tasting is just informative.


Just looked up what exact cartridge I have - 3M 60923 - rated for Organic Vapor and Acid Gas.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

tanksbees said:


> Just looked up what exact cartridge I have - 3M 60923 - rated for Organic Vapor and Acid Gas.


Recommended protection level is FFP3 
For example: 3M™ Disposable Respirator, FFP3, Valved, 8835
My searching how is your cartridge related to that was not successful.
OA crystallises and recommended respirator is for filtering particles.
An assumption can be made if something filters gases it will also filter particles, but getting answer from experts is better than making assumptions.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

A filter that gets gas and acid vapor will not in fact capture particles necessarily. Different media are used to filter certain substances. Charcoal for example will filter odors from the air. It will also capture lead. But depending on the media it is placed in it will not necessarily do much for dust and other particles. As for gasses or acid vapor. think of things like hanging around a gas pump all day where the gasoline is vaporizing when exposed to the air. This happens with a lot of acids and other chemicals as well. Unless you are stuffing the vaporizer up your nose I don't see much concern for vapor protection with OA. tiny particle yes. If your cartridge is not working you will smell the OA. that is also how you will know to replace the cartridge by the way. That or you will not be able to breath through it anymore.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

viesest said:


> Recommended protection level is FFP3
> For example: 3M™ Disposable Respirator, FFP3, Valved, 8835
> My searching how is your cartridge related to that was not successful.
> OA crystallises and recommended respirator is for filtering particles.
> An assumption can be made if something filters gases it will also filter particles, but getting answer from experts is better than making assumptions.


Vapors are not particles for the purposes of differentiating filter cartridges.

Alex


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

viesest said:


> Recommended protection level is FFP3
> For example: 3M™ Disposable Respirator, FFP3, Valved, 8835
> My searching how is your cartridge related to that was not successful.
> OA crystallises and recommended respirator is for filtering particles.
> An assumption can be made if something filters gases it will also filter particles, but getting answer from experts is better than making assumptions.


In America it is different:
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0474.html

"Any air-purifying, full-facepiece respirator with an N100, R100, or P100 filter. "

So it looks like I am good to go since 3M 60923 is rated P100

Even a cheap 2091 filter is good to go since it is P100
http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail...gclid=CKCqrdf2q84CFQxrfgodBPsL5A&gclsrc=aw.ds

Also, here is the difference between the three types:

----
Selection of N-, R-, or P- Series Particulate Respirators

1. The selection of N-, R-, and P-series filters depends on the presence of oil particles as follows:

If no oil particles are present in the work environment, use a filter of any series (i.e., N-, R-, or P-series).

If oil particles (e.g., lubricants, cutting fluids, glycerine) are present, use an R- or P-series filter. Note: N-series filters cannot be used if oil particles are present.

If oil particles are present and the filter is to be used for more than one work shift, use only a P-series filter.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

dynemd said:


> What you need is a good acid gas cartridge and a combination particulate filter helps also. 3M 60922 is perfect https://www.amazon.com/3M-Cartridge...=UTF8&qid=1469309056&sr=8-1&keywords=3m+60922


I would be careful not to confuse solid granular or powdered oxalic acid with vapor which is not addressed in the NIOSH guidelines. I have heard that a particulate filter is useful but not a substitute for acid gas capabilities when dealing with oxalic acid vapor. Therefore I maintain my original suggestion of a 3M 60922 cartridge.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I read that the dribble method was less effective. Will be getting a respirator. Chose days without wind or positioned correctly I guess when I treated last fall. I do seem to remember holding my breath while pulling cables off battery.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

tanksbees said:


> Even a cheap 2091 filter is good to go since it is P100
> http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail...gclid=CKCqrdf2q84CFQxrfgodBPsL5A&gclsrc=aw.ds


Or
3M 8233 – Filters toxins from oil-free air. Exhale valve. N100. + protective glasses

http://www.uline.com/BL_1020/3M-Industrial-Respirators-with-Valve


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

viesest said:


> Or
> 3M 8233 – Filters toxins from oil-free air. Exhale valve. N100. + protective glasses
> 
> http://www.uline.com/BL_1020/3M-Industrial-Respirators-with-Valve


NOT


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

dynemd said:


> I would be careful not to confuse solid granular or powdered oxalic acid with vapor which is not addressed in the NIOSH guidelines. I have heard that a particulate filter is useful but not a substitute for acid gas capabilities when dealing with oxalic acid vapor. Therefore I maintain my original suggestion of a 3M 60922 cartridge.


All of these should be ok then, since they do P100 and Acid Gas:
3M 60922, 60923, 60928
Honeywell/North 7583P100
MSA 815180


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

viesest said:


> Or
> 3M 8233 – Filters toxins from oil-free air. Exhale valve. N100. + protective glasses
> 
> http://www.uline.com/BL_1020/3M-Industrial-Respirators-with-Valve


What about your eyes?


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Geez you guys, you aren't in a giant smoke screen of OA. It is a gram of material that vaporizes and is mostly contained inside your plugged up hive...the 2097 filter is good enough.....NOW JUST MOVE ON with the discussion. Itsa a dead horse...


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

vdotmatrix said:


> Geez you guys, you aren't in a giant smoke screen of OA. It is a gram of material that vaporizes and is mostly contained inside your plugged up hive...the 2097 filter is good enough.....NOW JUST MOVE ON with the discussion. Itsa a dead horse...


Hey, they're your lungs do what you want...
MY lungs are worth the $20 for the 60922.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

That really nice Luke Shywalker, but I wonder how well that puppy will fit in my ULTRA-BREEZE.


dynemd said:


> Hey, they're your lungs do what you want...
> MY lungs are worth the $20 for the 60922.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

dynemd said:


> Hey, they're your lungs do what you want...
> MY lungs are worth the $20 for the 60922.



$20 + $100 for the respirator?


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Nabber86 said:


> $20 + $100 for the respirator?


I had the respirator, but it cost me $40 on ebay.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

vdotmatrix said:


> That really nice Luke Shywalker, but I wonder how well that puppy will fit in my ULTRA-BREEZE.


Fits fine. More comfortable than a half face respirator. You unzip the hood to put it on, or you leave the hood open if the bees are mellow.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

dynemd said:


> Hey, they're your lungs do what you want...
> MY lungs are worth the $20 for the 60922.


My thoughts exactly


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Full-Face Respirator or 'full' walk away.


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## Planner (Apr 3, 2016)

I have followed this thread and found it interesting from a perspective different than dealing with the proper equipment for protection fro OA. As a beekeeper I realize the need to preserve our bees and to limit the impact from mites, but I also recognize and give priority to preserving my own health. I will not need any protection as I will not be risking my health to protect the health my bees. TF beekeeping is far from perfect and I will end up purchasing more packages but I will not have volintarily exposed myself to the risk of OA. It won't be long before there is another chemical and then another and another and invetably a lot of sick beekeepers who will wonder why their health is failing. Each of us will determine the risk we are willing to take and then live with that decision.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Planner said:


> I have followed this thread and found it interesting from a perspective different than dealing with the proper equipment for protection fro OA. As a beekeeper I realize the need to preserve our bees and to limit the impact from mites, but I also recognize and give priority to preserving my own health. I will not need any protection as I will not be risking my health to protect the health my bees. TF beekeeping is far from perfect and I will end up purchasing more packages but I will not have volintarily exposed myself to the risk of OA. It won't be long before there is another chemical and then another and another and invetably a lot of sick beekeepers who will wonder why their health is failing. Each of us will determine the risk we are willing to take and then live with that decision.


Their are other mite treatments that are less dangerous to the beekeeper, such as oa dribble, so that really isn't a valid reason to go treatment free.

Was the goal here to share helpful information, or to push a TF agenda into a discussion about treatments?

Obviously we are all aware that we can choose not to treat, as that is what we do the remaining 364 days of the year.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Planner said:


> I have followed this thread and found it interesting from a perspective different than dealing with the proper equipment for protection fro OA. As a beekeeper I realize the need to preserve our bees and to limit the impact from mites, but I also recognize and give priority to preserving my own health. I will not need any protection as I will not be risking my health to protect the health my bees. TF beekeeping is far from perfect and I will end up purchasing more packages but I will not have volintarily exposed myself to the risk of OA. It won't be long before there is another chemical and then another and another and invetably a lot of sick beekeepers who will wonder why their health is failing. Each of us will determine the risk we are willing to take and then live with that decision.


Where have you ever heard of a beekeeper saying they where sick from the use of any mite treatment? I can make up reasons to not do just about anything. But in this case I have never heard of anyone say any such thing so I am actually interested if there are such claims being or have been made.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

tanksbees said:


> Their are other mite treatments that are less dangerous to the beekeeper, such as oa dribble, so that really isn't a valid reason to go treatment free.
> 
> Was the goal here to share helpful information, or to push a TF agenda into a discussion about treatments?
> 
> Obviously we are all aware that we can choose not to treat, as that is what we do the remaining 364 days of the year.


For some the point would not be safer. Safer would still not be safe enough I suppose. I agree with you but still recognize that safer does not necessarily make it safe enough. I am with you absolutely with the rest of your point. Well I OAV with a three treatment schedule so I don't treat only 362 days a year. I suspect I suffer more effects to my health due to exposure to heat than anything to do with treating. And getting stung, man let me tell you that stuff is pure poison.


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