# No honey in first year with 4 packages, and some drawn comb? REALLY??



## SwampCat (Jul 14, 2011)

Where I live in SW AR, I would not expect to take any honey the first year off new packages. I use all mediums for my hives and consider three mediums to comprise the hive body. Where I live, it would be all they can do to occupy three mediums this year.


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

I think the idea of not getting honey your first year is more along the lines of not expecting to get honey your first year. First year should be about increasing resources and keeping the bees alive. You can always hope for honey, just make sure you leave enough to keep the bees alive over the winter.


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## bbruff22 (Dec 24, 2013)

lemmje said:


> I think the idea of not getting honey your first year is more along the lines of not expecting to get honey your first year. First year should be about increasing resources and keeping the bees alive. You can always hope for honey, just make sure you leave enough to keep the bees alive over the winter.


+1


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## K9bees (Apr 8, 2015)

I am gomg into my second year with one hive in NJ. I didnt expect any honey last year but my hive did so well I actually pulled 21 lbs. of honey from it this past year. I was very happy with it. I am adding 2 hives this April and dont expect anything from them, but I can hope!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We EXPECT to split 3 lb packages 3 or 4 from every two AND get a normal crop of honey from each. 

Crazy Roland


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## marcos bees (Jun 3, 2013)

Roland said:


> We EXPECT to split 3 lb packages 3 or 4 from every two AND get a normal crop of honey from each.
> 
> Crazy Roland


That's great, why can you do that, when so many are saying no or little honey? Are you using drawn comb?


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## marcos bees (Jun 3, 2013)

I should add that I will be feeding them as much as possible to give them a good start.:no:




marcos bees said:


> I am confused about what I keep hearing about your first year, and not getting any honey. I have had hives before, but this year I am getting 4 hives which will have a few frames of drawn comb and the other frames have foundation. I am getting packages next week and hope to get some honey this year. Is that unrealistic?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

with already having drawn comb, there is no reason you shouldn't if you get them early enough. I put a package in on 4 drawn comb on may first last yr. and by Sept they had grown to a double deep brood box pluss I harvested 1.5 supers of capped honey, put one super back on wet and they overwintered as a double deep with a medium on top.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

the fact is, do you want bees next spring, or do you want honey this fall? because in most places a package of bees simply can't cope with so much. now, if you were to get an overwintered nucleus hive, or larger, there is a larger possibility of surplus honey. In my first year (last year) we had a swarm move in, build out 2 deep 10 frame boxes, and keep going. Instead of supers of honey, I took frames of brood and gave them to smaller colonies so they could build up faster, and any frames that were removed, they quickly grew more out.

So, since you have 4 packages coming next week, just enjoy this year, taking bees slow, and get em working for next year.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Commercial guys get good honey crops from first year packages. It's about management.

Here is what I think is important to get your package productive first year. - If your flow is early you need the bees built up fast as possible. Drawn comb is not necessarily needed because if the bees are fed and kept motivated properly they will draw foundation real fast. Thing is, from the day the package is installed you want the bees working and reproducing at maximum. They cannot do that on an empty stomach, if there is little natural nectar or pollen available, give them sugar syrup and pollen substitute. Uncomfortable for some folks I know, but bees cannot make more bees out of nothing, so feed them. It's about that simple, get the bees pumping straight away, and your package will often go on to produce as much a crop as any overwintered hive.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Last year I started over and got 12 nucs. I had a head start with nucs compared to packages, but still being their first year, I built them up and harvested about 240 lbs. of honey. I had somewhat of a spring flow before I moved them and then a summer flow for 1 1/2 months.

My success in harvesting honey from first year hives was that anytime there was no flow going, I always had feed on them. 2 gallons of syrup at all times! I probably bought almost 2000lbs of cane sugar last year doing it. Make sure to have protein subs on at all times unless they're not taking it. Now I have 12 hives worth of drawn comb to start over with AGAIN, this year.

...I did not win the varroa battle. -_-


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

My answer differs from those who've answered before. It all depends on your local forage conditions - when and how much. And yes, management matters too. Where I live in Maine we never suggest that a first year package, on comb or foundation, will make surplus honey. My goal is for them to winter with honey of their own making from natural resources and the feed that I provide them with. They are frequently the colonies that need additional food beginning in February. Surplus to me is honey in supers and the bees have enough put way in the brood chamber for over-wintering and spring buildup. Occasionally a first year package produces surplus and that is cause for celebration! ALL BEEKEEPING IS LOCAL. (Our hopes may be raised for a package on comb - but that is what they are - hopes.)


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## marcos bees (Jun 3, 2013)

*Yeah, I plan to feed them as much syrup as possible and pollen patties.* I hope that helps.



hex0rz said:


> Last year I started over and got 12 nucs. I had a head start with nucs compared to packages, but still being their first year, I built them up and harvested about 240 lbs. of honey. I had somewhat of a spring flow before I moved them and then a summer flow for 1 1/2 months.
> 
> My success in harvesting honey from first year hives was that anytime there was no flow going, I always had feed on them. 2 gallons of syrup at all times! I probably bought almost 2000lbs of cane sugar last year doing it. Make sure to have protein subs on at all times unless they're not taking it. Now I have 12 hives worth of drawn comb to start over with AGAIN, this year.
> 
> ...I did not win the varroa battle. -_-


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

The last time I had packages (the girls bought them for me as Christmas gifts) was a few years back. I get most of my bees from feral swarms and cutouts. 
I experimented with swarms vs. southern packages. Needless to say the swarms out performed the packges AND provided honey the first year. I have a youtube vid of the activity level with packages vs. swarms. 
Packaged bees are lazy IMO.


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## bean tree homestead (Nov 18, 2013)

A lot of people will pull so much resource from their hive that they have to feed back a huge amount of syrup to cover the supply needed to make it through the winter. I personally don't like to do this. Too much work and money spent on sugar. Plus it has been shown that bees fed on syrup will have twice as many nosema spores as those who are not assuming every thing else is equal... so I try to leave as much as they need to over winter.. Which normally means I let them have the fall harvest.


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

We put a package in a winter killed hive last year, three mediums of drawn comb and capped honey. The package was our most productive hive.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

OPs location says Indonesia...might be a little different conditions there?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

We rarely get any honey in the first year, but it does happen -- it requires a large enough source of nectar and a very active hive after our main honey flow.

I have no idea what the nectar supply over the year is like in Indonesia, you will have to ask someone with local experience or wait and see what happens. 

I usually advise people to not EXPECT to get honey the first year, that way they won't leave their bees with insufficient stores for winter. However, in don't think there IS much of anything like winter in Indonesia unless you have a very dry season where nothing blooms. Certainly no snow or freezing weather, anyway.

If you do have an extended period of dry weather when nothing blooms, you will have to insure they have adequate stores to survive until it rains again and the nectar flow picks up.

Peter


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

Andrew Dewey said:


> My answer differs from those who've answered before. It all depends on your local forage conditions - when and how much. And yes, management matters too. Where I live in Maine we never suggest that a first year package, on comb or foundation, will make surplus honey. My goal is for them to winter with honey of their own making from natural resources and the feed that I provide them with. They are frequently the colonies that need additional food beginning in February. Surplus to me is honey in supers and the bees have enough put way in the brood chamber for over-wintering and spring buildup. Occasionally a first year package produces surplus and that is cause for celebration! ALL BEEKEEPING IS LOCAL. (Our hopes may be raised for a package on comb - but that is what they are - hopes.)


 ....

exactly..all beekeeping is local.. if your bees are not doing well for your area find another spot a few miles away.


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## marcos bees (Jun 3, 2013)

I am in Pennsylvania now, I just can't figure out how to edit my location in my Profile.:lookout: Looks like I can't change it for some reason.




BadBeeKeeper said:


> OPs location says Indonesia...might be a little different conditions there?


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

hex0rz said:


> I built them up and harvested about 240 lbs. of honey. My success in harvesting honey from first year hives was that anytime there was no flow going, I always had feed on them. 2 gallons of syrup at all times! I probably bought almost 2000lbs of cane sugar last year doing it. Now I have 12 hives worth of drawn comb to start over with AGAIN, this year....I did not win the varroa battle. -_-


I wonder how much of that was feed:scratch:


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have a friend that got 160 harvest from a package on Ritecell.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

The calorie "sinks" in the hive are royal jelly production to feed brood, wax production to build comb, and the need to generate heat. I find the calories needed to generate brood feed are by far the largest need in my region. 

A hive that is feeding sheet after sheet of fresh larvae will eat every drop of nectar arriving at the hive. Only after brood production slows down (and hive demography shifts to favor foragers) does nectar begin to accumulate in a new hive. Comb production is a added drag.

The point a which a hive reaches optimum population and transitions to hoarding is dependent on the race of bees, the beekeeper's management, and the floral resource of the exact location of the apiary.

A split made during the nectar flow will often store more honey than a "wide open" hive. The unemployed bees in the split store prodigious quantities of nectar, this crowds the brood nest (empty at that time), and the queenright hive that develops never has the capacity to lay sheet after sheet of hungry larvae. The downside is these hives become "fall swarms". 

Highly selected commercial Italian stock will never slow down larvae production -- and in my region enter August with 60,000 bees in the nest, 8 sheets of unbroken larvae, and zero stores -- AND not a flower in bloom for miles. I cheer their productivity and curse their lack of foresight. These highly unstable nests will build off a 5 frame (queen added) nuc in two months, becoming 3 deep behemoths. These require "babysitting" through the fall to get them ready for winter -- feed, mite control, robbing control, etc. Mites are worse (since this is a function of eggs laid). 

An ideal bee for my climate enters the summer dearth with a smaller brood nest and manages itself for the "long game".


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

marcos bees said:


> I am confused about what I keep hearing about your first year, and not getting any honey. I have had hives before, but this year I am getting 4 hives which will have a few frames of drawn comb and the other frames have foundation. I am getting packages next week and hope to get some honey this year. Is that unrealistic?




edited to add: I just saw your comment about being in Pennsylvania. You need to email Barry and ask him to update it for you. It's one of the few things you cannot edit for yourself.

HTH

Rusty


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

marcos bees,

Interesting post! I first picked up on your location because I had lived in Jakarta, Indonesia for many years and worked from Sumatra, to Kalamantan, to Irian Jaya. Did not raise bees at the time however, but had as a kid growing up in central PA. I was going to say that just south of the equator in Indonesia you should have nectar available year round except during the height of the monsoon rains. Since you are actually in PA now I would say don't count on much of a crop the first year (however the drawn comb is a big plus) but concentrate on getting the girls through the first winter. IMO. the best advise in this entire thread comes from "oldtimer" in Post #11, "management" ! 

Hope that you enjoyed Indonesia as much as I did. 
Steve


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> I wonder how much of that was feed:scratch:


Well, if all my customers who told me its the best honey they've ever had, then I guess sugar syrup is the new honey! They literally stopped taking the syrup once the flow started and I pulled the feed.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

hex0rz said:


> Well, if all my customers who told me its the best honey they've ever had, then I guess sugar syrup is the new honey! They literally stopped taking the syrup once the flow started and I pulled the feed.


If you put as much syrup on there as you stated, it was in your honey. Wether they stopped taking it or not, It's like having a no peeing section in a swimming pool


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

So what do you suggest then? If you refer to it as a no peeing section in a swimming pool, then anyone who feeds syrup will invariably have syrup in their honey. Because that is alluding to dilution. Adulteration is illegal if you are selling honey, you know.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

hex0rz said:


> So what do you suggest then? If you refer to it as a no peeing section in a swimming pool, then anyone who feeds syrup will invariably have syrup in their honey. Because that is alluding to dilution. Adulteration is illegal if you are selling honey, you know.


not everyone who feeds syrup has syrup honey. one needs to know how to manage syrup feeding so it doesn't end up in the honey.
feeding 166lbs of sugar to each of your hives last year does not sound like good syrup management to me.
sure hope your honey wasn't adulterated, did you have it tested?


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## marcos bees (Jun 3, 2013)

Wait, if you remove the feeder, THEN add the supers, how could their bee syrup in the honey?



Harley Craig said:


> If you put as much syrup on there as you stated, it was in your honey. Wether they stopped taking it or not, It's like having a no peeing section in a swimming pool


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

marcos bees said:


> Wait, if you remove the feeder, THEN add the supers, how could their bee syrup in the honey?


bees move syrup and honey around in the hive.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

How do we expect to make 6-8 hives and a normal honey crop from 4 packages? Oldtimer nailed it:

"It's about management."


With all of the worries about CCD, mites and SHB, no one talks about the proper managing of hives anymore.
Find some textbooks from the 1930 - 1950's.


Crazy Roland


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Crazy talk from crazy Roland!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

It is all about management and pasture. I feed the bees until the two brood chambers are eighty percent full specially when drawing foundation. Then you put on supers and if the pasture is there, you get a honey crop. It is that simple. Bees are turning that feed into more bees not moving it into supers. Sometimes a huge crop is possible. In the seventies in North Dakota, the state average production was 148 pounds a year. Hard to belive if you listen to the never expect a crop crowd. I met that drawing foundation in those wonderful pasture days.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I'm just glad that I don't feed sugar syrup.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Beekeeping is local. We do not expect honey from first year hives. Regardless of how they are managed. Our flow is over after sourwood is done in mid July. We are fortunate if we harvest 40 pounds from an overwintered colony.

Shane


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## KRW11 (May 14, 2015)

marcos bees said:


> I am confused about what I keep hearing about your first year, and not getting any honey. I have had hives before, but this year I am getting 4 hives which will have a few frames of drawn comb and the other frames have foundation. I am getting packages next week and hope to get some honey this year. Is that unrealistic?


Location says Indonesia? All beekeeping is local, however I would say that there is one "universal rule" to beekeeping and that is in the 1st year your goal is to raise bees and keep them alive!


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

Vance G said:


> It is all about management and pasture. I feed the bees until the two brood chambers are eighty percent full specially when drawing foundation. Then you put on supers and if the pasture is there, you get a honey crop. It is that simple. Bees are turning that feed into more bees not moving it into supers. Sometimes a huge crop is possible. In the seventies in North Dakota, the state average production was 148 pounds a year. Hard to belive if you listen to the never expect a crop crowd. I met that drawing foundation in those wonderful pasture days.


... sounds about right. a good longtime beekeeper near me lost all his 40+ hives a year ago. he started over and had his best honey harvest ever last summer. he even had some swarm and split stuff, i think. do not plan on honey the first year but sometimes it happens .


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

tsmullins said:


> Beekeeping is local. We do not expect honey from first year hives. Regardless of how they are managed. Our flow is over after sourwood is done in mid July. We are fortunate if we harvest 40 pounds from an overwintered colony.
> 
> Shane


Certainly feeding is not mandatory if you don't have any goals or purpose. I'm not trying to recruit or coerce here. I am willing to instruct those who want to be productive in what works for me and a lot of others. I guess i won't see you competing at the farmers market. I am still selling honey twice a month at the market! Doesn't that say anything?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Vance are you suggesting that your methods and success will work anywhere?
If you are, I think it's a bit of a stretch.
Yeah, I'm still selling honey too.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Vance G said:


> Certainly feeding is not mandatory if you don't have any goals or purpose. I'm not trying to recruit or coerce here. I am willing to instruct those who want to be productive in what works for me and a lot of others. I guess i won't see you competing at the farmers market. I am still selling honey twice a month at the market! Doesn't that say anything?


Sure does,

You think highly of yourself.

Shane


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Clearly this discussion will change nobody's opinion. There are those who think they can't, so don't. And there are those who think they can, so plan and manage accordingly to ensure it will happen. Both think the other side is wrong, and have their own experience to back that up.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Well said, Oldtimer. I'm with you !

Steve


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

True that, Oldtimer. 

It is interesting to note that the "3 hives from 2 packages and making a good crop" was mentioned in an article about my Great Grandfather in 1924. It looks like to half the crowd we have been wrong for a long time.

Crazy Roland


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Getting honey from a package the first year doesn't usually happen around here anymore, no one keeps fields of clover anymore for their cattle, and that's about all that's going to produce honey in late summer. Our flow is usually intense but over by mid June, not all that much time for a package to get large enough to store any.

It does happen, but it would be foolish to count on it. More typical is feeding during the summer dearth and often through a rather pitiful fall flow, not that much goldenrod locally. More ten or fifteen miles away, not that much here.

There has to be nectar available to make honey (unless you want to sell sugar syrup as honey) and I just don't get enough after June.

I know for a fact that other people can get a decent crop off of a Spring package, but it rarely happens here. We don't usually get enough fall flow for a harvest on mature hives, either. 

Peter


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I know what I know. I also know lots of things I don't do well. I can't winter without treating for mites. I winter better with emergency feed. I winter well if I wrap my bees. I get a crop if I manage my bees to take advantage of early flows and of later flows if it rains and they are available. If you don't like my gate, don't swing on it. Happy Easter to you and yours.


tsmullins said:


> Sure does,
> 
> You think highly of yourself.
> 
> Shane


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Only a fool would claim that! I live in a high desert and the rain stopped in May and I got no crop after the fruit and the dandelions! But I got a crop off that. I got some alfalfa before it dried off. My methods give me a chance to succeed. Life ain't fair and that is all we get at best is a chance. It works out better if you are ready in case it rains.


clyderoad said:


> Vance are you suggesting that your methods and success will work anywhere?
> If you are, I think it's a bit of a stretch.
> Yeah, I'm still selling honey too.


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## Mr. Biggs (Jul 20, 2015)

Roland said:


> no one talks about the proper managing of hives anymore.
> Find some textbooks from the 1930 - 1950's.
> 
> 
> Crazy Roland



For those that are properly managing their hives and doing this. 

Any recommendations on texts or other links to further my learning?

Thanks,

Mr. Biggs


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## Westhill (Jul 26, 2012)

I started a package last year with no drawn comb. It turned out that my area is full of bee-favorite trees--black locust, catalpa, tulip trees--and that we also had a big fall flow with goldenrod and asters. I took off one 8-frame medium box of honey and left them three boxes full of honey for the winter. They only ate one, so when spring gets going I'm going to take off the extra two. I was shocked that they made that much honey but maybe it was luck and an exceptional year for the plants. I hope you do get honey this year.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Vance G said:


> Only a fool would claim that! .


I didn't think you were making that suggestion and hoped you were telling your account of things.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Mr Biggs wrote:

For those that are properly managing their hives and doing this.

Any recommendations on texts or other links to further my learning?


I hate to admit this, but I have read very few beekeeping books. The bees don't read them, and rarely do what is written. I only know from what my forefathers past down, and what I have experienced.

Crazy Roland, 5th gen beekeeper.


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