# Bee space



## frogpondwarrior (Aug 2, 2016)

In a honey super I pull out one frame and space equally. In brood boxes I use the right number of frames the box is built for and push the frames together leaving the spacing on both outsides of the box.
The reason for the super is for the bees to draw out the frame farther allowing easier removal of capping's for honey removal.
The brood frames are pulled out by the bees just far enough for the pupa to grow to adult. This leaves plenty of space between frames. Drone broody is obviously a wild card unless you use a drone frame. If so you can adjust around that one frame accordingly.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

SmokeyHill, "bee space" is understood by most beekeepers as ...


> Bee space: A space (1/4- to 5/16-inch) big enough to permit free passage for a bee but too small to encourage comb building. Leaving bee space between parallel beeswax combs and between the outer comb and the hive walls is the basic principle of hive construction.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?237911-Beekeeping-Glossary


Areas smaller than bee space will tend to get filled/glued by the bees with propolis. Areas larger than bee space will tend to get comb built in it. If that happens between frames, or between boxes, it may result in beekeeper gnashing of teeth  and/or bees getting riled up at beekeeper. 

If you intend to adopt different than 'standard' spacing of frames, make sure that you do not add extra space to those frames until *after* the comb on those frames has been drawn out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The bees will build brood comb a very consistent depth and honey comb a very variable depth. This is not "bee space" this is thickness of comb. Beespace is the space around the frame that keeps it from being attached and is between 1/4" and 3/8".


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## Arbol (Apr 28, 2017)

whoa, all you better get your facts straight before spreading false information ^^^ 
No way, there is only one correct definition of Bee Space, and that is that it equals 3/8 inch or 9.5mm, no more no less.
This is in all the scientific bee lit, in all books and no other answer is accepted in all the Master Beekeeping course's throughout the USA and the World.
Langstroth discovered and confirmed it, as have all university labs, I could go on and on. I could post 100 references to this truth. I won't because it's there in black and white already confirmed. wow...

There is NO between this and that, Bee Space 3/8" or 9.5mm has been well defined and accepted as fact and you can't change it. No matter what you want to post.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Arbol said:


> I could post 100 references to this truth.


:s ... Yet you haven't posted even a _single_ reference . . .


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Arbol said:


> No way, there is only one correct definition of Bee Space, and that is that it equals 3/8 inch or 9.5mm, no more no less.


Oh dear - there's nothing quite like being dogmatic, is there ?

Bees vary in their size - admittedly, not by very much - and so there is therefore a range of what constitutes 'a bee-space' in practice. It is NOT a fixed measurement.

There is also an observed difference in the spacings tolerated by the bees throughout a framed beehive. The space between a frame top bar and any hard structure above it MUST be one beespace, otherwise adhesions will occur.

In contrast, the space between a frame side-bar and box wall can be much larger - as much as TWO bee-spaces, as is the space between two brood combs - so that the bees can work both sides 'back to back', as it were ...

The difference appears to be one of orientation: the bees being far more particular with vertical spacings (except at the bottom of a comb, or frame array) than horizonatal spacings.
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

SmokeyHill said:


> I have read several articles concerning bee space. It seems the bees prefer different space according to the use of the comb. How do you set your bee space?


Basically, beekeepers don't set the bee-space which exists between combs - the bees do that themselves, by extending or contracting the depth of the cells, depending on their intended usage. What the beekeeper does is to set the spacing between comb centres, which often varies according to the size of the bee. 

Large-cell bees raised on standard foundation require a frame spacing of around 35 to 38mm if problems are not to occur, whereas bees raised on natural combs tend to prefer around 32-ish mm - BUT - there is no definite 'must be' about any of this - it's for the beekeeper to adjust the comb spacing to fit the size of bee he or she is keeping - and not the other way around ...
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I would suggest the industry accepted standard spacing is a good place to go. We know it is "workable". After you experiment with narrower and wider spacings in your climate, with your particular bees, and in your relative style of keeping frame contact surfaces scraped clean, you may decide to vary this dimension generally or in specific locations.

Fusion_power had a good post on the need for absolutely square frames with no twist, foundation perfectly centered and flat, etc., when using narrow frame spacing. Narrower spacing can have implications and benefits depending on bee breed and your spring and summer flow timings.

My experience with narrowed spacing is that it is more trouble for me than perceived benefit; Keeping mites under control and ensuring sufficient winter feeds pays better dividends for my degree of attention span!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>whoa, all you better get your facts straight before spreading false information ^^^ 
>No way, there is only one correct definition of Bee Space, and that is that it equals 3/8 inch or 9.5mm, no more no less.

Beespace is between 1/4" and 3/8" It's been that since bees existed... to put it another way it is 5/16" +- 1/16".

There were just the top three hits on google for "beespace between..."

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsp.html
https://missapismellifera.com/2014/10/04/eight-is-the-magic-number-sort-of/
http://articles.extension.org/pages/44117/what-is-bee-space-and-why-is-this-important-to-beekeeping

But let's ask Langstroth, the guy who generally (though probably erroneously) get's credit for discovering beespace...

"...leaving, between the frames and the hive walls, a space of from one-fourth to three-eights of an inch, called bee-space"--Langstroth on the hive and the honey bee 1889 edition pg 140


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

SmokeyHill said:


> I have read several articles concerning bee space. It seems the bees prefer different space according to the use of the comb. How do you set your bee space?


Welcome to Beesource SmokeyHill!

Mandatory "Bee Space" is built into your equipment, (it is what makes moving your frames possible without destroying equipment or honey combs), "Frame Spacing" within that equipment is somewhat variable. 

Additional space between frames is not desirable in the brood nest, but can be used to advantage in honey supers. Most reports of additional frame spacing are between frames of drawn comb in honey supers; usually one frame count short of the design width of a super, i.e., 9 frames in a ten frame super, or 7 frames in an eight frame super. Bees will add depth to the drawn comb to store extra honey. If there is too much space between frames, (or, above or below the frames), there will be burr comb. HTH


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Draw foundation with frames tight together. Keep brood frames tight together. Bees like a compact brood nest. I actually shave my brood frames so 11 fit in the box. Once comb is drawn, I only run eight frames in honey supers. Makes extraction so much quicker and easier.


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## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

Lots of good comments here. Unfortunately, the real experts & 0nly ones who know for sure, the bees, don't post here.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

SmokeyHill said:


> How do you set your bee space?


The frames and boxes are designed in such a way that they maintain bee-space ie the height of frame-rest relative to the frame and width of the side bar of the frame. n using convectional langstroth style equipment...you don't really need to "set" bee space, its already figured out for you.

ps. dimensions between manufacturers do vary. Like dadant frames in kelley boxes with a flush inner cover leaves too little space to maintain bee space. The result is the bees propolis all the top bars to the inner cover to manage and trap hive beetles.


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## TexasFreedom (Feb 25, 2016)

beeman2009 said:


> Lots of good comments here. Unfortunately, the real experts & 0nly ones who know for sure, the bees, don't post here.


The first thought I had was regarding people. "One size fits all". Yup, sure thing. Until it doesn't fit you. Most true for hats, now that I don't have the pesky hair to make my head even bigger, I'm quite particular regarding what hat really fits my shiny handsome (if I might say so myself) head.

I suspect individual bees say the same thing. Big Bertha and Mini Mary often debate this in the hive, I've listened their debates before.


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## SmokeyHill (Feb 6, 2018)

Maybe I should have emphasized _you_ and _your_. I was actually curious how individual beekeepers determine the bee space they will allow the bees. To say the bees do that themselves is incorrect. A beekeeper, however unintentionally, forces the bees to build according to their surroundings. 

According to Cushman, the largest bee space is created in the brood area (9mm according to his writings). 

If you use standard Langstroth frames with small cell foundation, or no foundation, are you ever concerned about the bees having to draw deeper brood cells than necessary to achieve what ever space they desire?


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I dont think the bees will draw longer brood cells like they would draw longer honey cells. Beespace is set by the equipment you purchase. And i suppose how lazy of a beekeeper you are if you let frames seperate from eachother. 

Im kinda confused. What r you trying to accomplish?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Im kinda confused. What r you trying to accomplish?

Ditto that. Beespace is a space in which the bees will neither propolize closed nor build burr comb. It happens to be about 3/8". This is not a manmade constraint, it is a natural fact. Frame spacing is another matter and should be addressed as such.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

SmokeyHill said:


> According to Cushman, the largest bee space is created in the brood area (9mm according to his writings).


That's right. The 'beespace' between brood combs isn't always uniform - i.e. parallel. The bees draw-out the cells towards the top of the comb (to reduce the gap there), and often around the sides too. The space which results can best be visualised by placing two dinner-plates or saucers together, rim-to-rim - that's roughly the shape of the resulting gallery between the two brood combs - resulting in a "Bee-Space" of around 9 mm (providing a space for two bees to work back-to-back) within the central area, and much less (space for one bee to pass) around the periphery - specifically around the top. Pretty good way of controlling the brood-nest environment ...

But this isn't always clearly seen, so I guess some sub-species are more prone to doing this, than others.
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

It was while writing the previous post that I spotted a possible source of confusion. What is commonly called "Bee Space" is only indirectly related to the actual size of bees. It's easier to describe this in millimetres, so bear with me ...

I make my own Queen Excluders with a wire spacing of 4.16mm, which my bees can wriggle though fairly easily - but a 4.5mm spacing would remove any need to wriggle - and so 4.5mm could therefore be considered as being one 'bee-space'. 9mm (near enough to 3/8") is therefore two of these 'bee-spaces'.

So - what is being described in the literature as "Bee Space" is simply an attempt to describe a spacing within which bees will neither draw comb, nor attempt to seal with propolis. The dimensions of "Bee Space" will indeed vary a little according to the size of the bees it relates to - BUT - the expression "Bee Space" (as used in the literature) is simply being used there as a generalised descriptor.

A problem thus arises when the terms 'A' or 'One' precedes the term "Bee Space", as in 'A bee-space' or 'One bee-space' (or 'Two bee-spaces'). Once a person starts adding numbers to it, a different understanding of the term may then be intended, with focus being made upon the number of bees which can fit within (what has become known as) "Bee Space" - such that "Bee Space" can often provide space for two bees ... i.e. *"Bee Space" can equal two bee-spaces.*

Confused ? Don't blame me ...
LJ


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Bee space in terms of inches is 3/16 of an inch minimum, and a maximum of 3/8 of an inch. Exception, bees always ignore the 3/8 maximum below the bottom bars and the bottom board of a hive in the area of the bottom entrance. In that area they will not fill in with comb until the gap exceeds 7/8 of an inch.

My reading of the original post was that the information wanted was the spacing for the frames in the brood nest and honey supers. Brood nest spacing was standardized as being 1 3/8 inches center to center when A. I. Root began to manufacture the Modified Hoffman frame that became the standard for U.S. beekeeping. Spacing in the honey supers depends on the number of frames used, which is usually 8 or 9 frames in a 10 frame box, with the space equalized between them.

As with all things in beekeeping, there were differing opinions concerning the spacing in the brood nest. The different spacing worked because bees are able to adapt. Each beekeeper can keep his bees as he desires, and the bees survive, and often prosper.


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## SmokeyHill (Feb 6, 2018)

little_john said:


> It was while writing the previous post that I spotted a possible source of confusion. What is commonly called "Bee Space" is only indirectly related to the actual size of bees. It's easier to describe this in millimetres, so bear with me ...
> 
> I make my own Queen Excluders with a wire spacing of 4.16mm, which my bees can wriggle though fairly easily - but a 4.5mm spacing would remove any need to wriggle - and so 4.5mm could therefore be considered as being one 'bee-space'. 9mm (near enough to 3/8") is therefore two of these 'bee-spaces'.
> 
> ...


This, and your previous post, is exactly what I was referring to LJ. Sorry for the confusion everyone. 

This all stems from an article from the Ontario Beekeepers' Association Technology-Transfer Program ( http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ont...emoval-for-the-Management-of-Varroa-Mites.pdf ) that discusses drone brood removal for the management of Varroa Mites. It suggests inserting a frame with drone foundation into the brood chamber. 

Randy Oliver of Scientific Beekeeping takes it a step further by designing a specialized drone frame:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-biotechnical-tactics-ii/

Ontario recommends placing the frame in position 2 or 3, while Oliver merely states "at the edge of the brood nest". 

Come to think of it, I believe I read somewhere that drone brood is generally raised around the perimeter of brood frames, which makes perfect sense according to the excellent explanation given by LJ above describing two plates face to face. It makes me wonder if dishing of the brood chamber is an intentional act by the bees to rear drones or merely a happy coincidence in that it leaves comb ideal for raising drones.

I am building my own equipment, including frames. So, what I am trying to accomplish is determining whether all frames are created equal, so to speak, with foundation choice being the only difference. Would widening the frame by some amount yet to be determined be of any benefit for drone comb or even honey comb?


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

I converted all of our brood boxes to 9 frames, makes it real easy to remove frames for inspection. We did this at the beginning of the season last year. The bees made no cross comb. Most of the frames were already drawn, we did open the brood nest via empty frames cut frames, no issue with them drawing the frames out. 

The bees gave us our best ever honey harvest, the brood was in all three boxes top to bottom side to side. Our first swarm, we think only, occurred right at the end of our nectar flow, third week of June.

We also have the supers at 9 frames, some I am going to convert to 8. I leave some boxes with 10 frames for empty foundation drawing.


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## SmokeyHill (Feb 6, 2018)

Thanks Missy, that's very helpful. When you say "converted" your brood boxes to nine frames, did you structurally modify anything, or just alter the spacing of the frames?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Smokey, it is just a matter of spacing the frames, no modifications necessary. Note that you need to get the comb drawn with 10 frames in the box. Afterwards you can reduce to 9, or even 8 in a honey super. Once the bees have drawn the comb out further, you can put an undrawn frame in and it will get built straight.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I converted all of our brood boxes to 9 frames, makes it real easy to remove frames for inspection. We did this at the beginning of the season last year. The bees made no cross comb.

This is what happens in my area with nine frame spacing; in this case in the middle of winter! I would never space a brood chamber at nine frames.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Looks like they propolized all the frames together and built a lot of wavy comb. Oops! I have always heard the bees like the brood chamber tight.


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

SmokeyHill said:


> Thanks Missy, that's very helpful. When you say "converted" your brood boxes to nine frames, did you structurally modify anything, or just alter the spacing of the frames?


Bought a lot of the metal nine frame spacers. Keeps the frames where they should be. Picked up from mann lake.


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

odfrank said:


> >I converted all of our brood boxes to 9 frames, makes it real easy to remove frames for inspection. We did this at the beginning of the season last year. The bees made no cross comb.
> 
> This is what happens in my area with nine frame spacing; in this case in the middle of winter! I would never space a brood chamber at nine frames.


Our bees must beeeehave, never have had a brood box end up looking like that. This picture was taken around September, 2017, we changed the brood chambers to 9 frame in February/March 2017









We are planning to inspect this coming Wednesday, going from snow and 30's to 70. Will see how they did over winter.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Just to clarify terminology, Langstroth, who coined the term "Bee-space" was defining the distance between two fixtures in a bee hive (typically the gap between the frame and the wall or the top bar and the bottom bar above it) that would not be filled by comb (as it is if it's over 3/8") or filled with propolis (as it is if it's under 1/4"). He was not defining the space between the surfaces of combs, the space to the bottom board etc. just the space between removable pieces of wood that needed to not be attached other pieces of wood in order to remain removable.


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

This is how our 9 frame spaced boxes look after being converted for a year. We climbed to 77 today so did a quick inspection of most of our hives. Saw queens, saw eggs, saw low honey stores. Added a bunch of sugar blocks again.


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