# Queen cells not hatching



## Makin' Honey (Sep 13, 2010)

Thoughts about cells not hatching. 30 years ago I worked for a large migratory bee operation. I was trained and raised 5,000 cells annually. Grafting percent was 95% or better. Cells hatching and mating in nucs was around 90%. That was then. The last few years I am trying to raise some cells for myself in my part time bee business raising 500 cells each spring. Grafting is the same other than I need bifocals and Wal-Mart reading glasses!! My grafting acceptance is 95% or better. I put the graft into a 5 frame queenless starter box for 24 hours. Then I transfer the cells to a finish hive, queen rite and above an excluder. My cells look great. But I have two problems now, anywhere from 10% to 20% are cut by the bees before the 10th day. I put what look like good cells in my nucs on the 8 to 10 day and am only getting about 50% hatch and acceptance. Many of the cells are not hatching in the nucs. I cut open some of the cells and the queen larvae are brown or the pupa is brown and curled. Anyone having the same problems? Any ideas?

Thanks, Victor


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Black cell queen virus anyone?


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## honeybeebee (Jan 27, 2013)

With Black queen cell virus, the cell itself is usually black and the pupae is pale yellow.... If it's black queen cell virus, you also have nosema.....


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

from randy olivers article last month in ABJ pristine and dying q cells. his description seems the same although it's not really pristine that is causing the problem.

producers
reported were poor “take” of grafts, or
that the queens would develop through the
pupal stage, and then die as they were in the
process of changing into adults. When the
producers uncapped the cells of the dead
queens, they would find white or colored
pupae, or deformed adults. Pay attention, because
this is where it gets really interesting!
Dimilin is a “chitin synthesis inhibitor,”
meaning that it arrests the formation
of an insect’s exoskeleton, a process that
is critical as a pupa metamorphoses into
an adult. This is what makes it more environmentally
safe—it only kills developing
insects, not the adults, or other forms of life
(although it is extremely toxic to aquatic
invertebrates).

only a WAG, but I was interested as I had the same problem last year in one hive with one queen, and they all failed. but no one sprayed anything in the area.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

This is what we got when poisoned with neonicotinoids back in 2008:



















The systemic insecticide clothianidin killed those hives and queens. 










Toxic waste...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

If you are in an agricultural area then there are a whole host of suspects. The concentrated nature of royal jelly makes raising queen cells the proverbial "canary in the coal mine". We occassionally see issues like this and we raise them in an area with nothing more than an occassional small garden. First concentrate on the things you have control over. Check very closely for any signs of brood disease, even the tiniest indication of an irregularity might be a clue and you might consider a tm treatment. A good quality pollen supplement also may help if the problem is toxic pollen either from pesticide residue or a source such as Yellow Jasmine. If you have any other hives you can use as builders from a different area I would definitely consider that as well. Best of luck, cell problems can be discouraging. It's a big reason I don't like to install anything younger than a 10 to 11 day old cell. I figure the bees are doing you a favor by spotting and "chewing out" anything that isn't healthy.


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## Makin' Honey (Sep 13, 2010)

Thanks Jim, I was checking my nucs I made in south GA yesterday and many of them are raising their own queen because my cell was dead. My 5 hour trip home last night I was to say the least discouraged. I do appreciate your ideas in your post. It give me hope. I am in a very low ag area in north GA and where I raise my cells but there is some Jasmine. Also I seem to struggle with PMS brood in some hives during the summer which could be showing now in a differant way. Do you have any thoughts on PMS brood? I will be trying your ideas this week in my next batch of cells. 

Victor


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would also consider giving your builders a partial feed ( more if they are light of course) of pretty thin sugar syrup. Good luck. Been there done that more than once.


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## Ryan Williamson (Feb 28, 2012)

Perhaps there is a lurking brood issue your hives? 
I had sacbrood hit a cell builder last year. Big and beautiful cells and all 30 or so ended up being duds. It is hard to admit but it happened. I gave them a new hygienic queen and they ended up doing great but I never gambled with using them as a cell builder after that.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

I had this same thing happen in spring 2010 after a poor winter with heavy losses. I assumed BQCV also but there was definitely nosema and possibly other viruses also. Did not see this in 2011 or 2012 with healthier hives.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

even if there not spraying the seeds they plant are treated with pesticides "systemic insecticide clothianidin" which the plant absorbs and transfers it to the nectar and pollen.remember its a big controversy the billion dollar companies will deny that it effects the honey bees. so we lose our hives and money while they profit this will probably get deleted


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## simplyhoney (Sep 14, 2004)

Makin,
Have you looked into your finishers? I went back to using swarm box after same problem seems to help. Set up a second story with piles of "clean" sealed brood a week or 10 days prior to graft, yank this for your swarm box. Make sure there's 2 frames of feed and pollen. Put a feeder on it after you introduce your graft.
Sometime the finisher colonies look good when you choose them but go down hill fast, many beeks will conure that this " virus" cycles. Best bees look crappy two weeks later, while the dinks heal up


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Queens which get chilled in the cell often fail to emerge or have a problem with shrivelled wings.
I have found that if cells are transferred to a mini nuc at day nine after grafting quite a lot will fail to emerge as the queens are not fully formed at day nine and they get chilled.
Day eleven is better but the risk is that a queen could emerge early before transfer so best to individually cage the cells.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

jonathan said:


> Queens which get chilled in the cell often fail to emerge or have a problem with shrivelled wings.
> I have found that if cells are transferred to a mini nuc at day nine after grafting quite a lot will fail to emerge as the queens are not fully formed at day nine and they get chilled.
> Day eleven is better but the risk is that a queen could emerge early before transfer so best to individually cage the cells.


Good advice Jonathan. It's easy to overestimate the ability of a builder to cover cells on a cold night. I always look at cells on the outermost edges of the holders with the most suspicion particularly when the nights have been cold. We had 3 consecutive nights in the low 30's and a few casualties are showing up as a result.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Are you sure you have enough bees in the nucs to keep them warm? sounds like as mentioned above they are getting chilled.

Your on the right track looking for answers, I find it amazing all the blame on pesticides..... your in an area and state that produces around a million queens that get shipped nation wide.......


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## Makin' Honey (Sep 13, 2010)

Ok question…Jim and Jonathan put your cells in on the 11th day with chance of hatching virgins….do you use or introduce the virgin queens? And if so what is a successful way to introduce them? It is possible the cells chilled in the nuc, it has been a cooler spring in GA so I made my nucs this year with an extra shake of bees to compensate. I lean more to the idea that something either than chilling is happening because this has happened the last three springs and it happens in my hive re-queening as well as my nuc making. I will try the 11th day idea I will just need to move my grafting date up……so I would like to know about the hatched virgin questions above.
Thanks, Victor


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

If you choose to use 11 day cells be sure and pull them out of your finishers and incubate them the night of the 10th day after grafting. You may well have an occasional one hatch. They arent too much of a threat to neighboring cells though if they are incubated.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

I usually raise cells in a queenright colony with the cell raiser part above a queen excluder - the system described by Wilkinson and Brown.
I graft larvae about 12 hours old.
On day 9 after grafting or day 10 if I am feeling lucky I put a roller cage over each cell in the cell bar.
On day 11 I transfer cells to Apideas which have been pre loaded with bees.
I open these at the mating site 2 days later by which point the queen will have emerged from the cell.

If I have a virgin queen which has emerged early, I spray it with a little water and put it in the apidea. I then add a scoop of wet bees on top.
The apidea is opened 24 hours later.

Some people just 'run in' virgins but I have never had a lot of success with that.


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## simplyhoney (Sep 14, 2004)

Alright, not to sound like ******* yokel ( which I might be) but I have seen many instances when queen on finisher shrinks in response to pheromone that cells are emmitting at day 9ish . Said queen slips through excluder and wreaks havoc on you cells. I was brought up under the school that if you use finisher you remove cells as soon as sealed and incubate.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

simplyhoney said:


> Alright, not to sound like ******* yokel ( which I might be) but I have seen many instances when queen on finisher shrinks in response to pheromone that cells are emmitting at day 9ish . Said queen slips through excluder and wreaks havoc on you cells. I was brought up under the school that if you use finisher you remove cells as soon as sealed and incubate.


 We use queen right builder/finishers, usually leaving grafts in until they are either 9 or 10 days old. We rotate brood up every two weeks and typically don't see queens that are shrinking or slowing down on egg laying though given the size of the builders you must maintain it isn't isn't surprising to have a small percentage "shut down" as if preparing to swarm. 
We are, however, drifting from the original question posed and that is what could be causing some cells to die and end end up with just a shriveled, dark pupae?


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

I have never seen a queen in a queenright system get up through the excluder from the bottom box.
I have had the odd virgin emerge early in the top box tear down cells and it is a pain to locate a virgin queen which has the run of several boxes above the excluder.
I work it the same way as Jim rotating brood from the bottom box to the top box every 10-14 days.
Getting back to the original query, I don't think it matters if the cells develop in a queenright cell raiser, finisher colony or incubator. The trick is to do the transfer as late as possible to avoid chilling.
If you hold a cell up to the light you can often see movement inside and then you know for sure you are not inserting a dud cell with a dead queen/pupa inside.


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## simplyhoney (Sep 14, 2004)

Agreed Jim, most the time it works, but as stated in my previous post and to get back on topic, the larger the colony the greater chance for exposure to bqcv. Why not use a swarm box? Was the way back then, should be the way now.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Don't remember this problem at all pre varroa, which in my country was year 2000. 

The last two seasons had quite a bit of what Makin Honey describes, more so this last season. Thought it was just me, then found beekeepers all over my country are having the same issues, some very discouraged beekeepers.

What is it? Don't know, but what's changed is increasing bee diseases, and neonicitinoid use. As per others, I've found that if the cells are not put out till the very last minute, which requires use of an incubator cos the odd one will hatch, the problem is less.

This has made me question my handling of queen cells while putting them out, but can't really find anything wrong. Not doing anything different than I've always done, which used to get virtually 100% hatch.


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