# housel positioning



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

So out of curiosity how many of you TF small cell beekeepers actually use housel positioning? What are your thoughts on it? Out of mid winter boredom I figured we could discuss this.


----------



## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The 3 years I did small cell I used it, but saw no benefits from it. Housel positioning is another of those better ideas that don't work when put to the test.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Here is a link to read about it for anyone interested.

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...ning-how-i-view-its-importance-to-beekeeping/


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Dar do you use it? your thoughts on it?


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I've tried it and for the most part the bees ignored it. After a few generations of raising brood in cells, the bottom is rounded by cocoons so you can no longer tell which direction the Y aligns. One item Dee notes and should be understood by all beekeepers is that 4 or 5 very good worker combs should be in the center of the broodnest. I've found that getting good combs in the right places is important.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So out of curiosity how many of you TF small cell beekeepers actually use housel positioning? What are your thoughts on it? Out of mid winter boredom I figured we could discuss this.

Try as I might looking at natural comb in foundationless hives and top bar hives, I could never find a pattern beyond the "primary comb" and that was not 100%. Occasionally you would get one that had both directional types of comb on the first comb, but generally it would be vertical rather than horizontal comb (non directional). The rest of the combs I could not find any pattern at all. I do find reversing a frame with foundation on it occasionally helps, but that's about all the evidence I can find for there being any substance to the idea.


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Thank you guys. I gave up on the practice after trying it for 2 seasons quite a few years ago. Was checking in to see if anyone actually found any merit to it that I was unable to discover.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Oh! I forgot. I'm supposed to be part of the treatment free cult. I guess I HAVE to believe in Housel positioning because I never bother to find out anything for myself, I just take other people's word for it...


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Clayton Huestis said:


> Thank you guys. I gave up on the practice after trying it for 2 seasons quite a few years ago. Was checking in to see if anyone actually found any merit to it that I was unable to discover.


2 seasons? Really a long time for judging!
If it is not important, why is the advise from all profs not to change the order of broodnest ? 
My opinion: it`s helpful, but not necessary because the bees work the combs like they want them to be while they are using them.

If you had put in a foundation the wrong way like I did last spring, marking it the wrong way, you would have seen that the bees are able to accommodate but for a long time they did not start drawing this foundation.
They drew out all the others.


----------



## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

I have no idea if it is important or not. Perhaps with foundation it is important... who knows?
I have foundationless frames and did not notice that kind of regularity that mr Housel describes. Bees draw combs however they like. Sometimes the "Y"s are rotated around so there's not even a "Y"... (or rather there is overturned "Y").
Perhaps more important is not to change the the order of combs than Housel Positioning.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I could never find a pattern


Agreed. I didn't and don't find any pattern at all in all the hives in fixed comb that I runned and still run. 



BeesFromPoland said:


> ... who knows?


The bees know. If it would matter, the bees would take much(!) more care about it. And the effects would be much more visible. 

So better dump the idea.

What is beneficial, to keep the structure of the broodnest intact, so it works like the bees setted it up, which is usually alright. But not always, the bees maybe are superorganisms, but that doesn't mean they have superpowers. They are still humans like you and me.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

I agree with the posters above. I have yet to discern any consistent pattern in my foundationless frames. I have seen frames in which the bees started with Y right side up on one part of the frame, and Y upside down in another part, and stitched the two together at the middle. In other frames there is a gradient from upside down Y to right side up Y, and in between, something like what Housel describes for the primary comb. 

To be fair, I should note that most of these are frames inserted in an already-extant colony, between frames of foundation - so it might be that all this confusion is an artefact of "abnormal" conditions.

However, I also rearranged a few hives last summer to follow Housel positioning (hives with all or mostly all frames of foundation), and I have been watching them to see if there is any difference between them and the hives I left alone. It is early yet to say, perhaps, but thus far I have seen no benefits that would warrant so invasive a disturbance of the hive. If anything, I only set them back a few weeks.

John


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do beekeepers who Housel also Fungshway their hives? Or divine subsurface streams and align hives accordingly?


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Oh! I forgot. I'm supposed to be part of the treatment free cult.


Did you just make this up or did someone here actually accuse you?


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Do beekeepers who Housel also Fungshway their hives? Or divine subsurface streams and align hives accordingly?


I have a bait hive with a foyer for Fung shey purposes. It caught a great swarm so the principle clearly works.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

sqkcrk said:


> Do beekeepers who Housel also Fungshway their hives? Or divine subsurface streams and align hives accordingly?


In my own case, it is actually a matter of uniting myself through extended deep-psyche meditation with the universal omnipenetrating superconsciousness, hence becoming a nexus of pure untrammeled chakric energy, capable of manifesting pots full of astral honey at whim.

However, jesting aside - I recognize perfectly the improbability that Housel positioning should have any appreciable effect on the bees. However, I thought it was worth trying, on the very simple principle that the bees are in the end _very _small; and in consequence, even changes to their world which seem to me to be utterly inconsequential, can (and in many cases _do_) have ramifications far greater than I am capable of predicting beforehand.

John


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

As happens in every hive once there's been a few brood cycles and cocoon buildup leaving the bottom of the cell round, just wondering how the bees can tell which way up the Y is, and why they would care?


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Exactly OT. I tried magnification to see if I could see anything. I couldn't! I'm hanging my hat on this one. Before I did just wanted to see if anyone had come up with some real info to prove the theory I may have missed.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Did you just make this up or did someone here actually accuse you?

No one on here would ever accuse a treatment free person of being in a cult and all believing the same things...


----------



## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Some Tf folks may accuse , the other way. But all beliefs have radicals. I was Tf, but the nasty mites around here kept killing my bees. I treat my bees for those bedbugs, but no more than needed. So am I a non-pious tf beek?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If so, we are all non pious TF beeks LOL 

Actually I think all beekeepers would like to be treatment free but some do what they feel their own particular circumstances demand.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Actually I think all beekeepers would like to be treatment free


indeed they would.



Oldtimer said:


> but some do what they feel their own particular circumstances demand.


as indeed they should. good post ot.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

btw ot, i think you've earned a new nickname: 'trollbuster'


----------



## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> btw ot, i think you've earned a new nickname: 'trollbuster'


:applause:


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> >Did you just make this up or did someone here actually accuse you?
> 
> No one on here would ever accuse a treatment free person of being in a cult and all believing the same things...


Lol, in other words no..


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> btw ot, i think you've earned a new nickname: 'trollbuster'


Ha ha, yes Billy The Beekeeper LOL. I was a bit naughty, but before it all got erased it was fun.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Lol, in other words no..

In other words, I lost track years ago on how many of those I've seen.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> I was a bit naughty, but before it all got erased it was fun.


I am sorry I missed it.


----------



## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Back in the dinosaur days of small cell, I tried it. But I also set up a top bar hive to observe natural comb building for myself.

Initially though I saw some relationship on the first two palm sized combs drawn. But those relationships were quickly negated as the bees enlarged those combs and finished the broodnest.

Bees commonly start more than one palm sized comb on a top bar and then eventually join them together. Interesting enough, there's rarely any similarity, in the Housel orientation of the individual pieces, even when on the same top bar. I've written more about Housel Positioning here.

I saw no positive effects by arranging comb this way in my small cell foundation based hives.

In fact, it was just more work.And when extended vertically between boxes, can progress from just meddling to disruptive/harmful,


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> >Lol, in other words no..
> 
> In other words, I lost track years ago on how many of those I've seen.


Ha ha :thumbsup: I hear ya


----------

