# extractor fail me in the middle of extraction



## mendocino queen honey (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi All,
been lurking for a while. i figured it was time to join up.
Were in northern part of California- about 50 miles from the coast.
Our flows are vetch-spring, clover/blackberry-summer, pennyroyal/yellow star thistle-early fall.


We were about a quarter into our honey extraction the 9/18 extractor just wont do the job. The honey is too thick and the extractor just isnt powerful enough to spin it out; this year's crop is very thick- almost like jelly. Its not yet crystalized just thick, pure Pennyroyal honey. I was lucky enough to set 50 hives in about 200 acres of lakebed blue curl (english pennyroyal) as far as the eye could see. Even when i heat up the honey by setting the supers our in the sun in bee proof black plastic bags it wont really flow well. 
i was able to extracct about 10 gallons with the tangetial two frame dadant from my shed. What a great flavor tho'.-what a pain.

Ive got 70 medium supers of it and no working extractor... 

Im partially to blame because i chose the cheap route when i bought the piece of crud extractor last year. $900 hunk of junk (grumble). It pains me to admit that i messed up and now need to buy a real extractor. Probably a dadant or maxant. The MANNufacurer also admitted that they messed up on milling the nylon frame reel and cut the grooves too small. So the medium pierco frame dont fit right and flop around when it does spin. Did i mention that I was unhappy with my purchase...? To their credit they offered to recut the grooves if i disasembled the extractor and sent it back to them. Not much help there. Definately not a refund. Chalk it up to experience.

The Dadant 20 framer is around 1600 bucks and the maxant is around $1200.
As far as quality- they both seem rugged and well made- both 20 ga. stainless. Stainless frame guides on the Dadant Ive also read that the dadant has a bigger honey gate. I need a machine that i can rely on. Not an expensive toy. I just hope i can extract this honey before the cool weather comes in.


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Are you saying the extractor won't spin fast enough? I love my older Dadant 20. I haven't used the new electronic one.


----------



## mendocino queen honey (Sep 4, 2008)

Sorry about all the typos. Allow me to clarify...

I have a mann lake 9/18. It cost me $900 and is falling apart and wont do the job.

I am shelling out $1600 to Dadant for a new 20 frame electric. 

I am grumbling about losing the $900. 

matt


----------



## JPK (May 24, 2008)

If its really just a matter of power you COULD look through the Granger Catalog for a more powerful motor and swap it in for the existing, get through the season for 1-300 bucks and a little time.

At the end of the season send back the reels to have them fixed on Mann's dime and sell it.

You lose less money and get through your season faster and cheaper than waiting around for a new extractor to be shipped to you.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/start.shtml


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

We have had a very dry year and our relative humidity is unusually low in northern California. I checked the honey from a recent pull and found it to be 15% or lower moisture content. I do have the ability to control warm the honey to 90 or 100 degrees for 48 hrs. It spins out fine then. 

Other than that, can't help ya -- Fuzzy


----------



## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

before you buy the 20 i suggest that you contact EQUINOX -50 hives needs bigger unit -equinox is selling from ARBUCKEL he has a 48 frame with a worm pump that i would recommend over the 20- the price is right if you compare it to the other big reels-there add is in the journal and they are good folks  RDY-B


----------



## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

RDY-B I'm still loving your old extractor. I extracted for 3 other people this year and several more interested in it next year. I've got rdys old dadant 20 and it works great. Still have under 20 hives so not spinning tons of frames at a time.
The size of your extractor should be matched close to the speed of your uncapping. You wont need a 120 frame extractor if your uncapping by hand. Or you don't need a chain uncapper for a 4 frame crank. But If you want to sell a chain uncapper?


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

You can get a chunk of your money back by selling the little extractor to a hobbiest who will find it fine for limited use. If I remember correctly, the Mann Lake 9/18 is the one Michael Bush is using. By the way, the Dadant 20 will hold 32 medium frames.


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

After re-reading the original post... It might be better to spend money on a greenhouse to use for warming the boxes. If stacked 4 high, it would be less than 20 stacks so the greenhouse would not have to be too big. You would need to seal the greenhouse to make it completely bee proof. You would also have to have some airflow to regulate the temperature to keep it below 110F. It would take 2-4 days to get the boxes up to the right temp for extraction.

I suspect that your method (black plastic bags) really does not heat the honey much at all. And whatever gain you might have is lost overnight. With all the boxes in a hothouse the thermal mass will be enough to prevent too much overnight heat loss. 

But then, it's your money.

Fuzzy


----------



## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

Money spent on good equipment is money well spent -I laid out the money for a new 60 from Dadant -after a littel while you will forget about the money you spent -my machine paid for itself this year -and thats a good felling  RDY-B


----------



## mendocino queen honey (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi all,

I'm going ahead with the Dadant 20. I cant afford to mess arout with jury rigging equipment any more. Truth be told, thats my default mode. I love to monkey aroud with equipment- save money. been there done that. I noticed (actually the wife noticed that I was kevetching constantly about the mann lake debacle). Finally she flatly stated, "just buy the best machine to do the job and be done with it- think of how much time energy you spent monkeying and griping about that extractor" Hmmm, thinks I... This is something new.
I wore her defenses down- without even trying. nice. im feeling better already. 

We are thinking hard about setting uo some kind of hot room for the incoming supers. Thanks for the suggestions.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

We keep old spare extractors in the shed just for those breakdown moments.


----------



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I have to say i really like my maxant. It's quite old but a good one. I like that the motor is separate from the actual extractor so if it goes, off to princess auto to buy a new one. As well the parts are simple and eay to replace especially if you like to tinker and repair like my husband does. Where as the datant motor and controls are all together, and you have to send it in, costing more in down time unless you have a spare controller. However the maxant is an easy do it your self repair job when something goes wrong.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

fuzzy writes:
I do have the ability to control warm the honey to 90 or 100 degrees for 48 hrs. It spins out fine then. 

tecumseh writes: sounds like most excellent advice to me....

and yep I don't think plastic bags would ever get the job done.


----------



## France (Apr 5, 2007)

One has to have some kind of a "hot room" if having any kind of operation, meaning a larger number of supers to extract. Hot room is a must for many reasons!
Maxant 10/20 can't be beat. . . As already stated above, it has simple set up. Four bolts to remove and of you go with the motor. Motor is separate unit, with pulley and belt. Motor can be bought at any hardware store for less than a hundred bucks. (Even an furnace-blower motor fits.) 
I had one years ago and now I know the man who has it after I folded my outfit (it has changed hands 3 times since) and is still going like when it was new. . . .

(Those units with motor and rpm and/or speed controls - together as one? they are a pain when something goes wrong... They can't be had when needed. It usualy will take a long while to send them out and get a repair or a replacement. About the cost? I shudder when I see how much they go for?!
The reason they are so expensive and complicated is cause they are a direct-drive - which is not a good idea. . . .)


----------



## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

So...is there anything wrong with your 9/18 other than the groove size?

How much do you want for that worthless pile of junk? 

That sounds like the one I've been considering. My honey is runny enough when warm to work fine, I think.

Rick


----------



## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

Maxant uses 20 guage, and Dadant uses 24. Maxant comes with legs, and is cheaper, and you cant beat the warranty!


----------



## BeekeeperBill (Mar 7, 2007)

Yeh, I'm thinking if you have it fixed on mann lakes dime someone who isn't extracting concrete thick honey would find it to work fine. you shouldn't really lose that much $. 

on another note, my mann 3/6 works great even with a hand crank


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never had honey that thick. Crystalized, yes, but just plain thick, no. Those who I have talked to who have, say you have to have a tangential to get it out or, the English even use a press on the Heather honey as it won't come out at all.


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Michael,

I'm glad that you get thin honey. When you get stuff at 15% moisture or below, AND it is at room temp (72F) it won't even drain through a nylon screen overnight (or 2-3 nights for that matter).

Fuzzy


----------



## sjbees (Jun 9, 2007)

Pennyroyal is a thixotropic gel honey and as per Michael's comment, you may be disappointed with any radial extractor.

Gel comes out better in a tangential than a radial (not good, but better). You have to spin hard, really hard, and the combs will suffer unless you make special mountings. The gel becomes more fluid with agitation, so extraction requires shake/rattle/roll treatment.

Pennyroyal is an 'active' honey in the same sense that Manuka is considered active in terms of high anti-bacterial activity. Manuka is a gel too and New Zealanders have dealt with it by developing a different form of extractor (see http://www.beetechnz.com/) which is called semi-tangential.

"The secret of the extractor is in the double baskets which have a swinging divider in the centre. The swinging divider allows clear egress of honey from the inside fully supported comb faces, while minimising the overall basket dimensions. The baskets also have a high density of supporting wires to cradle the comb faces against the centrifugal forces required for Manuka extraction which otherwise leads to comb damage in other machines."

"Combs to be extracted go through 3 to 5 reversing cycles which progressively ramp up in rotational speed. As the combs lighten, much more centrifugal force can be applied to them without risk of damage. Each time the extractor reverses its cycle direction, any remaining honey in the cells is essentially stirred by the change in direction of the forces applied thus helping to break down the bonds in thixotropic honey."


----------



## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

I've never seen a maxant , can you double stack shallow frames like the dadant?


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

sjbees said:


> Pennyroyal is a thixotropic gel honey shake/rattle/roll treatment.
> Pennyroyal is an 'active' honey in the same sense that Manuka is considered active in terms of high anti-bacterial activity. Manuka is a gel too and New Zealanders have dealt with it by developing a different form of extractor (see http://www.beetechnz.com/) which is called semi-tangential.
> "


Cool post, thanks for the info.


----------



## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

BGhoney said:


> I've never seen a maxant , can you double stack shallow frames like the dadant?


On a 4000 series, yes.


----------



## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

I tried to buy a series 4000 got a good price quote -then when time to ship -I was told that they weren't making them because of problems with a foundry closing - seams the foundry makes a casting for the real -and they told me they went going to make the large extractors for quiet some time -wanted to build small extractors and bottling tanks -said they spent quite a bit of money on robotics to expedite the process and where gearing towards the hobby market-ended up going with dadant for my big reel cost was quite a bit more than original quote from Maxant -looked at reels from mannlake but they told me only had available what was on the floor and they had only a small smooth reel -they said they wherent geting any more -because the exchange rate between the dollar and the euro made it non-profitable then I went to EQuinox and they said they could build one for me and price was very good then after a week a got a phone call and there factory in mexico had caught fire and they where out of production -and had to rebuild the factory-the others i looked at where not quite lifetime machines -good equipment hard to come by these days and price is going through the roof

RDY-B


----------



## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

mendocino queen honey said:


> Sorry about all the typos. Allow me to clarify...
> 
> I have a mann lake 9/18. It cost me $900 and is falling apart and wont do the job.
> 
> ...


Falling apart? How old is it?


----------



## MAXANT (Sep 13, 2008)

I apologize you had to go through that. We really worked hard to find an alternative to make your extractor. We have been making some positive changes at Maxant. Most extractors do not use cast bottoms, they are usually spot welded "c" clips. The problem with that is, they will eventually break, no if, but when!
I recall you wanted a 50 or 70 frame extractor.
I cant say now, but look out in 2009.........  something very exciting is coming!
You will probably notice a price increase in all of the foreign equipment slowly happening, due to the exchange rates.




RDY-B said:


> I tried to buy a series 4000 got a good price quote -then when time to ship -I was told that they weren't making them because of problems with a foundry closing - seams the foundry makes a casting for the real -and they told me they went going to make the large extractors for quiet some time -wanted to build small extractors and bottling tanks -said they spent quite a bit of money on robotics to expedite the process and where gearing towards the hobby market-ended up going with dadant for my big reel cost was quite a bit more than original quote from Maxant -looked at reels from mannlake but they told me only had available what was on the floor and they had only a small smooth reel -they said they wherent geting any more -because the exchange rate between the dollar and the euro made it non-profitable then I went to EQuinox and they said they could build one for me and price was very good then after a week a got a phone call and there factory in mexico had caught fire and they where out of production -and had to rebuild the factory-the others i looked at where not quite lifetime machines -good equipment hard to come by these days and price is going through the roof
> 
> RDY-B


----------

