# looking for vertical top bar hive designs



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why do you want to do this instead of just using Langstroth type equipment?


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## REWERT (Jan 30, 2009)

I'm new to this also and decided to go with (2) KTBH's this year. They were simple and inexpensive to make and will be easier and more natural to manage (my opinion). An "organic" as possible approach is my number one priority versus quantity of honey produced. I also am interested in Warre's. My plan is to expand next season and add (at least) 2 more KTBH's and (at least) 2 Warre's. I added quilt's to the KTBH's I built this year; seemed like a great feature of the Warre's and would help in our harsh winters. If you want a good reference for both TBH's and Warre's check out http://www.biobees.com/. Phil Chandler has a great book on top bar hives and the forum on this site is dedicated totally to 'natural' beekeeping. Good luck.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I'm with Squeek, use Lang boxes but with topbars or foundationless instead of frames. Or make something that'll be pretty much the same thing. The biggest difference in Langs, and maybe the only difference if you're going vertical in a TBH, is the frame.


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## France (Apr 5, 2007)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organ...ode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc


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## beegarden (Mar 3, 2009)

*even though this is technically off topic of my question....*

Sqkcrk & others,
For all the same reasons as have been iterated here on this site already; I will spare everyone a reiteration.... for example you can visit 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224120
or you can look into research, books etc out there on TBH, like:
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic...ing/general/management/top_bar_faqs/tbhf.html
or 
by Phil Chandler, _The Barefoot Beekeeper_

Everyone has their own philosophy about beekeeping. Mine is to work with bee's biology and instincts and to reduce intrusion. Others may have different philosophies. Sometimes, folks can have the same philosophies and arrive at different conclusions of how to get there. We all can learn from each other in the process.

For me though the real burning question is not "why not just do langs?" but rather it is "_Why just do langs?_". What better way is there to learn about why I should appreciate a lang or why I should appreciate any other type of hive than by actually doing it yourself. 

It's great to soak in everything you can learn from books, web forums, from working with other beekeepers, talking to other beekeepers, talking with researchers, reading research and studies, but nothing ultimately surpasses your own scientific observation and experience in your own bee yard. 

No matter how many years, decades or eons one has been beekeeping there is always something to learn out there. We have never exhausted the knowledge out there known or unknown. 

I would like to strive to expand my knowledge and experience. I believe this requires stretching and trying new things, and exploring, all using scientific method. What better way than to not just have 2 langs but to compare my experience with them to another type of hive.

While Langs may be deemed to be the end all be all here in the US, there are many other types of hives prevalent throughout the world. Unless one builds and sell langs, I doubt one would say that everybody who uses any other hive design isn't producing honey and their bees must therefore be weak and unhealthy due to hive design. 

I may be alone here - but I am actually fascinated by other hive designs out there around the world. I believe that there is something we can all learn from them. We may ultimately learn to just better appreciate why we use what we use, but the likelihood is that we can learn even more beyond that if we open ourselves up to truly exploring. What we learn may be just about bee behavior, or it may be about hive design, or it may be about environment, or other aspects. 

I have another thread going on this if you are so inclined to participate in that discussion or if you are curious to see some hive designs from other parts of the world:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227512

So sqkcrk, I am sure if we got to talking some more or if went out and visited your hives, I would learn something from you too 

Returning to what was supposed to be the topic of this thread --- VTBH --- I am interested in verticality and look forward to hearing from others about potential designs. I am already planning for next year and would like to try out another design....

Marika


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So why don't you just dump a package of bees into an empty wooden box and keep them that way?

I guess I should just skip these Threads that seem like beekeepers trying to "learn" something about bees that they think they may not learn by keeping them in a conventional manner. There is nothing magical about any type of hive you can imagine. But if one kept bees in hives that are easily manipulated by humans, one can learn all sorts of things abobees, bee behavior, and etc.

Knock yourselves out. If you want to find all you can about hives and such, I suggest the International Bee Research Associations Bibliography of Bee Books from I forget when to 19something, by Dr. Eva Crane.

Signing out of this Thread,
Mark


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

Ben Brewcat said:


> I'm with Squeek, use Lang boxes but with topbars or foundationless instead of frames. Or make something that'll be pretty much the same thing. The biggest difference in Langs, and maybe the only difference if you're going vertical in a TBH, is the frame.


With the Warre you don't top super but put the new boxes on the bottom. So bees make new brood comb every year. Dimensions are different as well which might be a benefit for colder climates. Very little time needed during the year for inspections. From my understanding you put the number of necessary boxes on in the spring (underneath the basic hive config of 2 boxes) come back in the fall and take off all but the bottom 2 boxes (yes this is a simplified version you need to inspect and decide what boxes to take off in the fall etc.). If you keep spare equipment in the yard and they decide to swarm you might just increase your number of hives.

While the Lang is probably the ultimate commercial hive presently in existance (at least ultimately acceptable) small timers like to play around. I believe in Europe there are some commercial beeks using Warre or a variation on his equipment with sucess.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So why don't you just dump a package of bees into an empty wooden box and keep them that way?

Been there, done that. It was a very interesting learning experience on many levels. First, seeing what the bees do, and second realizing that managing a hive like that wasn't the nightmare it was made out to be. I don't recommend it, as it is not idea, but it was very interesting to do. I did a cutout eventually and put them in a regular hive.

>I guess I should just skip these Threads that seem like beekeepers trying to "learn" something about bees that they think they may not learn by keeping them in a conventional manner.

I'm always amazed how many beekeepers I meet who have NEVER seen naturally drawn comb and even make statements like "without foundation they won't even make comb".

> There is nothing magical about any type of hive you can imagine. But if one kept bees in hives that are easily manipulated by humans, one can learn all sorts of things abobees, bee behavior, and etc.

Which a top bar hive is. Easily manipulated and you can see bee behavior such as drawing natural comb, the natural structure of the brood nest as far as sizes of cells and drone location etc. and how the comb stops 3/8" from the side or bottom that you won't see in a Langstroth hive.


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## peletier (May 5, 2007)

"Returning to what was supposed to be the topic of this thread --- VTBH --- I am interested in verticality and look forward to hearing from others about potential designs. I am already planning for next year and would like to try out another design...."

The end of this statement suggests that you have housing for your bees this year. That's good. Now for next year....
Physics pretty much limits us to stacking our bees UP, DOWN, or SIDEWAYS. Yes, there are rotating hives but let's don't go there. 

What we call a "Langstroth" hive is a vertical stacking hive where "supers" are added to the top. Let's call this an "UP" hive. What is inside the hive is your choice...frames with foundation, frames without foundation, top bars without frames, nothing at all (not legal in most states, I believe). "Design" variations on this theme mostly involve dimensions except for the AZ hives of Slovenia which are accessed through a door in the back and are not supered, per se. They are built as one, two, or three story. Advantages to using standard boxes to go up - Interchangability, easily purchased ,relatively cheap, some resale value. Build your own? Sure! 

What we consider a "Warre" hive is the same darn thing with different dimensions but limited by Mr. Warre to top bars only and a couple of other stipulations ....lift the whole stack and put "supers" on the bottom;and no peeking until time to harvest honey. In other words, he attached a "philosophy" to keeping bees in boxes. Let's call this a "DOWN" hive.

That's pretty much it for vertical hives. UP or DOWN. Anything other than Langstroth equipment will be custom built.

When we talk about a "Top Bar Hive" we are generally describing a "SIDEWAYS" hive. Some folks experiment with going UP from this hive with supers. Other sideways hives are called "long hives", "chest hives", etc. and vary in dimensions and bar or frame configurations.


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## LenInNorCal (Feb 28, 2009)

Plastic tub from K-Mart or Target. Right size will fit a bar. Saw one hive from that, drilled a hole or two....what do the bees know?


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Now THAT's an interesting idea!


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## Stevedore (Jan 22, 2009)

I modified some Lang deeps with a "Kenyan insert" designed to take 14.5-inch top bars perpindicular to the frame orientation:

http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2461

I plan to manage the first box like a top bar hive and then super with a second box when the bees get close to filling the first.


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