# Foundationless frames question



## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

I've never used BBQ skewers but they'd definitely be robust, probably too much for my taste. The bees chewed the monofilament when I used it, it works great for support but I was constantly trimming off chewed lines. Tried some abrasion resistant line but it is similar to braided line and getting it tight enough was an issue. I've since gone to wire and use a jig that bows the frame to provide tension.

As to ease, the monofilament is easy but can get the fingers a little tender if doing a number of frames. The wire and jig are easy and quicker than the string.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

also using wire here, wrapped around a small nail bent at 90 degrees used to 'tune' the wire tight like a banjo string.


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

Bamboo works well


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

> wrapped around a small nail bent at 90 degrees


never tried bending the nail over (on purpose anyway), just wrapped the wire around the nail and drove it home.


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## Kcnc1 (Mar 31, 2017)

I think I meant to write SHISHKABOB skewers. That’s what I’ve read about here, and started using to make frames for next year. I put two per frame dividing it in thirds. I have a lot to do and was wondering about easier ways. 

Thanks for the input so far.


And btw that’s a perspective illusion. The frame is square


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Eikel said:


> never tried bending the nail over (on purpose anyway), just wrapped the wire around the nail and drove it home.


i find that the wire tends to relax after a while. being able to come back later and tune it back tight is a help. once proper tension is achieved i'll bend the head of the nail into the wood which tends to hold it in place. for the stubborn ones it's possible to tighten again later if necessary.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

I run the wires horizontally, one loop on mediums and two loops on deeps. I've worked with a few folks running top bar hives and I must say I was uncomfortable handling bars with relatively new comb and full of honey in 90+ degree heat. It seems like a couple of dowel rods mounted it the bar similar to your skewers would add a significant amount of support and help keep my anxiety down.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I use wire, use staples as wire guides, and tighten the wire permanently by pulling the wire slightly off axis and capturing the "stretch" with a staple.

I never rework the wire ---- the primary cause of wire loosening is lack of wire guides, which allows the wire to bite into the wood. Even a little tiny bit of bite will sag the wire. 

One advantage of the "stapling off axis to tighten" procedure is the staple has enough friction to hold a wire if one of the other legs breaks. Saves cascading blowouts. The risk, until you get practiced with stapling, is dead-centering the wire which busts it.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I've never used anything as a guide in any of my foundationless frames other than a strip of wood on the bottom of the top bar. If I did though, I would either use the 4.95# of frame wire another beekeeper gave me or fishing line, but probably the wire.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

fatshark said:


> Bamboo works well


In my opinion, the linked images suggest that the bamboo skewers cause divisions. I use wire and get pretty uniform comb and good strength. 

That said, I'm only using foundationless in the brood frames (deeps). Beginning this season, I'm using plastic foundation in mediums for honey. I had originally planned to use all deeps, but have decided that foundationless deeps are too fragile for extraction and too heavy to handle full of honey.

Adam


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## fatshark (Jun 17, 2009)

Give them a few more days and they're perfectly secure ... they usually leave a walkway between the bottom of the comb and the bottom bars of the frame though.

I've not used them in super frames.


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## sebashtionh (Apr 6, 2016)

I use 30# test fishing line and haven't had any chewed thru in 3 years since i started using it. quicker it install for me.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

fatshark said:


> Bamboo works well


:thumbsup::thumbsup:
If you go to fatsharks website he has a nice post on their use.


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## johnwratcliff (Feb 24, 2015)

I?ve always used foundationless frames. I never run any wire. I only use Kelley fstyle frames. Seems like too much work.


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## Western (May 29, 2016)

I only wire the 2 bottom rows in the frame now, that is usually where I loose stability before the comb is filled out. I use wire guides and a short nail for each end to anchor the wire, then use a wire crimper ( is that a word) to get it bow tight.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Kcnc1 said:


> I would like input from experienced foundationless frame users on which is better for support/ ease : fishing wire or wooden barbecue skewers.
> 
> Thank you


I wanted to bump this to see what you ended up using?
I do foundationless and didn't put anything in but my girls don't always attach the bottom.

I am going to use Fishing line but I got 12# instead of the 30# that I wanted -  hate it when people put the wrong thing in the wrong box on the store shelf !
I am wondering if I need to get the 30# or if the 12# would be fine.
I don't have the receipt or I would return it. I CAN always use the line for actual fishing


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Tigger19687 said:


> I wanted to bump this to see what you ended up using?
> I do foundationless and didn't put anything in but my girls don't always attach the bottom.
> 
> I am going to use Fishing line but I got 12# instead of the 30# that I wanted -  hate it when people put the wrong thing in the wrong box on the store shelf !
> ...


I would not use the light stuff. I have had it nipped by the bees and it is harder to work with than the heavier stuff. Mono has benefit if you want to cut out queen cells but I find it harder to work with than wire and I dont know if it is worthwhile cheaper.

I switched to using the wire crimper which allows you to string and anchor your wire just fingers tight and selective passes with crimper then does the tightening. Staples beside the holes to keep the wire from biting in, instead of those fiddly grommets.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

What # size works better?
I am only putting one line on the lower bottom section as mine don't like to connect the comb to the bottom well. 
I would rather take the time to drill and thread the line through the Winter frames I made then take the chance of dropping the comb.
Now I just need a new fishing pole and someone to go fishing with


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I think bamboo skewers are probably the fastest with the least hassle. No thanks to fish line. Rather use wire along with a wire crimper to make things tight. Buy boxes of 1000 ct craft sticks. Does 250 frames per box.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Tigger19687 said:


> I wanted to bump this to see what you ended up using?
> I do foundationless and didn't put anything in but my girls don't always attach the bottom.
> 
> I am going to use Fishing line but I got 12# instead of the 30# that I wanted -  hate it when people put the wrong thing in the wrong box on the store shelf !
> ...


I use fishing line and find that I often end up breaking the 20# line when pulling it tight. I do a surgical knot to keep it taut. New roll is 30#. The bees do often cut through the line, but by the time that happens, the bottoms are firmly attached. Put the 12# on the end of a cane pole and go bream fishing. Use wax moth larvae as bait when you find them.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Lol, I better NOT find Moth anything in my hives 
I will get 30# Thanks


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