# Beekeeping ethics and Social Context



## Maykronata (Oct 3, 2012)

Hi all!

I would like to open up the floor for a discussion about the ethics of keeping bees on both industrial/small scales and some historical/social contexts related to beekeeping. I assume everyone here is comfortable keeping bees and using honey (I certainly am, so no worries! I'm not looking to pick a fight!) I would like to get some people's opinions on the possible social implications of artificial queen insemination, treating for pests, commercial-scale beekeeping and its difficulties/implications, the idea of beekeeping as 'usury' (I don't see it this way, but I'd like to talk about it anyway), and other 'ethical' concepts. I'd also like to talk about how gender and race has influenced beekeepers and how women and minorities deal with issues that may arise in beekeeping or the agricultural field (no pun intended!). 

Feel free to suggest topics or resources! 

Kelly


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

I keep bees because I enjoy it. 30 hives currently and if the winter is not too harsh I plan on having 60 hives next year.

I graft or left the bees raise thier own queens.

Treat for mites with soft chemicals.

Again,I keep bees because I enjoy it. Life is complicated enough to worry about everything else.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Usury? That would imply that the bees are slaves. Since hives can pretty much swarm whenever they want I'm not sure how that could be the case. There is a symbiotic relationship between the beekeeper and the bees, and if anything, the benefit is to the bees. How much money is spent on other insects to keep them going, relative to bees?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

I, too, keep bees because I enjoy it. But that's not all; I also keep them for their own good. I put forth effort to keep bees in the best way for them, while keeping them alive and manageable . I own 7 hives and plan to go to at least 10, possibly more, next spring. I also work with the Cheyenne Honey Company, and help manage 150 hives with them. I graft queens most of the time, but occasionally let the bees raise their own. I treat for mites by fogging using food-grade mineral oil and thymol. Beekeeping will be my life career; I intend either to build myself up to that or to buy out Cheyenne Honey Co.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I keep bees because I enjoy it, because I love honey, because I want to make a little bit of money from honey sales.
I use only survivor or treatment free bees, do not treat, and don't do heavy swarm control methods. I try to minimize swarms, but figure I need to help repopulate the feral population with bees able to cope with the mites. 
Hope in two years to hit 50-60 hives... last count had 30.

Regarding the ethics of beekeeping, I would think it's much like dealing with any livestock - treat them well, help them thrive, and harvest their produce. Don't abuse them.
Regards,
Steven


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## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

not sure how usury applies. i rarely loan my bees money and when i do its at a low interest rate


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have met people who wont use milk, eat eggs or honey because that would be exploitation of animals: in the meantime they were wearing leather boots and had a leather belt holding up their pants, so not much of their philosophy managed to rub off on me!


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

Bees are not like any livestock I have ever dealt with. Cows, pigs, horses all need constant maint. to keep the herds going. There is no organization in the herds and most would perish without any help due to their domestication. You have to control them to keep them from wandering. You have to protect them from predators. You have to provide feed and water.

Bees are organized colonies. Each have their own purpose during each phase of their life controlled by a single queen for the most part. They control their climate, guard themselves from danger, and forage for their own food and water. They always come back to roost each night. Sure they have their pests, but I have already figured out, they really know best what they need. And if you lose a herd, you don't need a dozer to dig their grave.....

On a nice summer's eve, you can sit by a hive and watch this little organized colony do all of these things and be amazed at how controlled their lives are. Each has a purpose and they perform it flawlessly till they drop dead and get carried off by their sisters.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

While I'll agree that it's important to recognize that Honeybees have a special place in our culture, and that they are considered livestock by many, I'll also have to say that they are still invertebrates.

Invertebrates just never seem to get the same kind of treatment that some give to other animals, and the fact that they are stinging insects doesn't help.

Nevertheless, I have objected in the past to the placement of hives in a known quarantine zone, deliberately exposing them to harmful pesticide levels, just to make a point in european environmental politics.

That IS unethical, and quite frankly, should always be condemned.

So, yes, Honeybees and ethics can be placed in a social context.


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## Jeanette (Jul 7, 2012)

In Australia, I have not met any gender bias (for or against) in regards to beekeeping. Actually, the beekeepers I have met probably wouldn't have cared if I was green-skinned as long as I was interested in beekeeping.


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## Autonomy Acres (Sep 3, 2012)

Like most of you who have already responded, I keep bees because I enjoy it. I think it is therapeutic for me and helps me deal with stress and a bit of depression. I am still new to this and have much to learn, but I truly hope that keeping bees will be a lifetime pursuit and passion. I look at the world around me and realize that a lot of our collective actions have not been good for the planet or any of its inhabitants, especially bees. I would like to change that, even if it is only a few hives at a time. 

My goal is to give the bees what they need and not rely on chemical treatments. I lost my original queen this year when she swarmed, so I am now the proud owner of a naturally mated queen!! I hope by next year to bump up to 3-4 hives total, and learn how to split hives successfully. I like the idea of naturally mated queens and of incorporating as many different genetics as possible to breed hybrid vigor!

Ultimately I would love to have bee keeping be a part of my living. I am a student of permaculture, and having more than one way of making an income is part of being resilient. I never plan on being a "commercial" bee keeper, but do not look down on those who can make this work out for themselves. For right or wrong, right now we need the bees for pollination for our food system to continue, so I don't believe the argument lies with small vs. large scale bee keeping, the problem lies within the food production system itself. But that is a different debate for a different forum.

Short term goals are to 1) - successfully overwinter my bees 2) - This winter I plan on making as many of my own hive boxes and equipment as possible 3) - Continue reading, watching, and practicing any and all things related to bees.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Hmmm not sure how treating for pests figures into the ethical argument, would that be from the perspective of the bee or the pest? Women? Minorities? Once you put on a bee suit everyone looks the same.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Take a herd of horses. Don't feed or medicate them and see what your neighbors say. You can tell them I am trying to just let the strongest survive and West Nile won't KILL them all! When the grass is gone, tell them that, "Yes their is no grass but I am seeing if they can eat the bark off those cottonwood trees and survive til spring". What is wonderful and romantic about not taking care of your livestock! Most of the rest of this premis is even more ridiquious as my Grandson say. No disrespect to the person posing the question, he is accomplishing exactly what he wanted and that is to discuss morality.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

I keep bees because it's enjoyable, educational, and of great benefit to the environment.

Treatment is a touchy issue, and there are good arguments on both sides. Personally, I'd rather not treat. But if it looked like I had to, or lose the hive, you bet I would. I see this as being similar to treating pets, herds of livestock, or ourselves when need be.

There's a cafe in Salt Lake City that reportedly will not serve honey because they believe it's exploitation of the bees. Personally, I see it as more of a synergistic arrangement. I treat them well and provide them a protected home, food, medical care, spending money, etc. when they need it. (Wait, are we talking about my bees or my kids?) In exchange I get whatever honey they don't need. My philosophy is:

Don't take all the honey and then feed syrup for winter.
Once the bees have enough for winter, I can harvest the rest.

I don't see an ethical issue once the bees needs have been met. Of course, this is all philosophical right now since this is my first year and I had to feed like crazy just to get them up to weight for winter.


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## BigGun (Oct 27, 2011)

Maykronata said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I would like to open up the floor for a discussion about the ethics of keeping bees on both industrial/small scales and some historical/social contexts related to beekeeping. I assume everyone here is comfortable keeping bees and using honey (I certainly am, so no worries! I'm not looking to pick a fight!) I would like to get some people's opinions on the possible social implications of artificial queen insemination, treating for pests, commercial-scale beekeeping and its difficulties/implications, the idea of beekeeping as 'usury' (I don't see it this way, but I'd like to talk about it anyway), and other 'ethical' concepts. I'd also like to talk about how gender and race has influenced beekeepers and how women and minorities deal with issues that may arise in beekeeping or the agricultural field (no pun intended!).
> 
> ...


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

There was an interesting post on Bee-L yesterday regarding a non-migratory commercial beekeeper who uses treatments with apiaries located somewhat near a 3 year old treatment free yard. The treatment free yard is blamed for higher than usual varroa counts and readily observable Nosema in the commercial yard. The treatment free person replies that his bees were doing fine but have now all died - with the blame going to the commercial yard.

We are likely to see more of this type of argument going forward, as the two methodologies are very incompatible at some levels. How is the treatment free beekeeper going to know if his bees will co-exist with high levels of Varroa without allowing Varroa counts to get high? And what is going to stop the treated bees from getting reinfested?

I wish I had the magic wand that would resolve this.

Oh yes - I keep bees because I always wanted to be a farmer, and keeping bees seemed like a good way to head in that direction. Then I caught "the bug." 10+ years keeping bees, roughly 40 colonies.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

That's the PP Beekeeping argument.

Beekeepers that follow standard practices get 'stung' by pests/pathogens coming from neighbors.

The other side of that argument is that treatment-free beekeepers are getting off of the chemical/treatment treadmill to avoid contaminants in their hives and develop resistant bees.

I do think that both sides have a good argument, and that each side can criticize the 'ethics' of the other.

But, the treatment-free approach has some good science to back it up including: social immunity, healthier microflora, molecular immunity, and IPM in general.

The standard practices beekeepers have productivity on their side. They've got a big job to do, and it's the best way to do it.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Kelly, why don't you open the discussion by making a point or telling us how you feel about all this. Then folks can reply/react to your ideas and concerns.
Mike



Maykronata said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I would like to open up the floor for a discussion about the ethics of keeping bees on both industrial/small scales and some historical/social contexts related to beekeeping. I assume everyone here is comfortable keeping bees and using honey (I certainly am, so no worries! I'm not looking to pick a fight!) I would like to get some people's opinions on the possible social implications of artificial queen insemination, treating for pests, commercial-scale beekeeping and its difficulties/implications, the idea of beekeeping as 'usury' (I don't see it this way, but I'd like to talk about it anyway), and other 'ethical' concepts. I'd also like to talk about how gender and race has influenced beekeepers and how women and minorities deal with issues that may arise in beekeeping or the agricultural field (no pun intended!).
> 
> ...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keep your own bees. Don't stick your nose into your neighbors hives or management practices. Treat other beekeepers respectfully regardless of who they are, what their abilities are, or where they originate from. Don't intentionally sell disease infected equipment or bees.

Being a suspicious individual, is this question being brought up to fulfill a Social Studies requirement?

When it comes to morals or ethics I don't know that there is anything unique about beekeeping and beekeepers. Live your life in as moral and ethical manner as you can , understanding that we all fall short at times. Besides, morals and ethics are human constructs. Bees, and other critters, don't live their lives ethically or morally. They simply do what they do w/out regard to such things. Gathering and storing food in whatever way possible, reproduce, that's what bees do. W/out regard to whether their methods are ethical or moral.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

As a beekeeper ethics for me inters the picture in many ways. I myself have raised as a point of conversation the benefits of killing the bees in a hive in the fall in order to harvest every drop of honey. On a purely financial basis this actually makes since. I have an investment in my bees. the colony alone cost $100. The hive, tools, food, medications etc are also expensive. I have invested lots of time in order to understand and make choices to benefit my bees. I will have spent about as much if not more to help my bees get through the winter as they cost me in the first place. To do so I left 100 lbs of honey on the hive. That is $600 to me if I sold it at $6 a lb and I have people waiting for it. This has been primarily a ethical choice on my part.

I will spend time and money to treat my bees for illness even though it could be of greater benefit to me to just let them die so I can again take their honey. Again an ethical choice.

I have taken great care in the quality and condition of the equipment my bees are housed in. Again strongly influenced by ethics. It is not humane or beneficial to keep bees in conditions where they suffer or face additional challenges. I support that at least in part my choice to provide quality and more expensive equipment is ethical on the grounds that other choices I make are almost purely ethical.

I also keep current on treatments for the diseases of bees. Not only because ti is a benefit to me but that it is a benefit to the bees. I have a genuine concern for all bees that whatever is afflicting them gets resolved. weather I keep bees or not. I always have.

I have heard many of the views of those that will not eat meat, drink milk or eat honey. I also spent quite a while setting in a park talking to a person that thought they where a knight of the round table. It struck me that this gentleman was most likely quite educated. He actually knew the story of King Arther very well. He knew all the names of the characters as well as the events depicted in the stories. It is my philosophy that if this man is happy being a knight. Then please someone provide him with some armor. It does not make him right it makes him happy. So for those that are happiest not eating honey. I will do my part to sell all I have to others.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y,
What does a happy bee look like? Or a not happy bee? How can one tell the difference.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Keep your own bees. Don't stick your nose into your neighbors hives or management practices. Treat other beekeepers respectfully regardless of who they are, what their abilities are, or where they originate from. Don't intentionally sell disease infected equipment or bees.


Mark - what you say sounds good. But let us imagine that in the yards I spoke of above there is AFB. What then? Should the uninfected beekeeper continue to ignore the infected beekeeper?

As I have noted before, I have both treated and untreated yards. I try to keep on top of what is going on pest/disease why, but I'm far from perfect. Still, I like to think I'd recognize AFB if it was staring me in the face.

My wife likes to joke that there should be licenses for having children. In that same bent, is there some standard competency and/or behavior to be expected from any beekeeper? We all had to start learning from a blank slate. Getting some beekeeping education and learning to recognize and deal with seriously contagious bee diseases as prescribed by law seems reasonable to me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How does one beekeeper know that AFB exists in their neighbors apiary? If AFB exists in any apiary, the ethical/moral/legal thing to do is get rid of it. Contain and destroy the diseased hive(s), by burning or deep burial.

Ignore is your word. I see the condition of my colonys my business and my Business, if you see the diff. So, it is up to me to keep them in what I consider the proper condition. If I saw a consisted spike in AFB in my bees, knowing what I know about AFB, I would look at my own practices first to see if I have exposed myself thru purchased equipment and such.

I might seek help from the Authoritys to see if they can determine whether my neighbors hives are infected, if it appears as though I am doing everthing I can then I would look beyond my own apiary. That's when I would go against what I wrote before.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> Daniel Y,
> What does a happy bee look like? Or a not happy bee? How can one tell the difference.


"Happy" as we understand happy. I don't believe bees have emotions, but in a very short time, one knows the difference between a bee that is happy/content and mad/irritated. You know this by their actions and sound. Don't your bees talk to you?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sure Barry, but I don't always listen.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maykronata said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I would like to open up the floor for a discussion about the ethics of keeping bees on both industrial/small scales and some historical/social contexts related to beekeeping. I assume everyone here is comfortable keeping bees and using honey (I certainly am, so no worries! I'm not looking to pick a fight!) I would like to get some people's opinions on the possible social implications of artificial queen insemination, treating for pests, commercial-scale beekeeping and its difficulties/implications, the idea of beekeeping as 'usury' (I don't see it this way, but I'd like to talk about it anyway), and other 'ethical' concepts. I'd also like to talk about how gender and race has influenced beekeepers and how women and minorities deal with issues that may arise in beekeeping or the agricultural field (no pun intended!).
> 
> ...


What specific "historical/social contexts related to beekeeping" do you wish to discuss?
What sorts of "ethics of keeping bees on both industrial/small scale" do you see and wish to discuss?
"social implications of artificial queen insemination"? What sorts of social implications might those be?
"difficulties/implications" of "commercial-scale beekeeping"?
"the idea of 'usury'"? I don't know what that is or how it pertains to beekeeping.

As to gender and race and how that has influenced beekeepers, I'm not sure what you are after here. "how women and minorities deal with issues that may arise in beekeeping"? Do you mean problems? Points of confrontation, bias, or discrimination due to race or gender amongst beekeepers, especially on the commercial scale?

I know women who are commercial beekeepers. I have met and visited w/ African Americancommercial beekeepers. I know of some Gay commercial beekeepers. Demographically speaking beekeepers in America are predominantly white, male, straight, and over 50 years of age. (I am assuming the straight part. I don't know if anyone tracks that in beekeeper surveys.) Probably for the most part Protestant Christian too, I think. I don't know for sure, but most of that can be said for the agricultural industry on the whole, except perhaps younger in age. I'm not sure.

I hope you will participate in the discussion. Otherwise all this is is a bunch of beekeepers kicking things around and we may never get to exactly what you want to know.


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

Hi All,
I havent used treatments yet but I will if they need it. By keeping bees, I have made a comittment to keep them healthy and safe. I do it because it is relaxing, the bees need help and I love honey.
As for sickness, feeding and treatments, the human population is seeing a resurgence of disease due to non or late vaccinations. This puts the eldery, very young and immunocompromised at risk- fact. In this respect the bees are similar. My decisions MAY have consquences for others.
Blessed Be!

Meridith


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Mark is trying to get this thread moved to TG!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I am? I'm not the one who wrote "Blessed Be!", clearly a religious reference. The pervue of Tailgater. 

Sorry Meridith. Didn't mean to throw youy under the bus. I know you simply made a typo and meant "Blessed Bee". 

How so Barry? I thought I addressed the OPers' questions/statements quite directly and w/out politrical or religious overtones, simply observations. actual demographic surveys have been done on beekeepers. I don't have a link to them, but I bet Kim Flottum of Bee Culture has them.


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## tlozo (Jun 13, 2008)

Maykronata said:


> Hi all!
> I'd also like to talk about how gender has influenced beekeepers
> Kelly


Speaking of gender, I have to admit I'm personally biased in favor of the female bees


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

I am sorry and humbly be your pardon. No offense intended or taken.
Meridith


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Andrew, what was the treatment free guy's argument that the commercial guy had some impact on his bees? Too many bees in one area or something? I don't see how one guy treating his bees would affect my bees at all unless he was saying his treatments made the pathogens more severe or something.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> "Blessed Be!", clearly a religious reference.


Clear as mud to me. No religious connection that I see. You brought up a list of topics that will very easily get a discussion into areas that are non beekeeping. We've been down this road before and it rarely stays on this side of the fence.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, maybe this will be the exception.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> Andrew, what was the treatment free guy's argument that the commercial guy had some impact on his bees? Too many bees in one area or something? I don't see how one guy treating his bees would affect my bees at all unless he was saying his treatments made the pathogens more severe or something.


Without going back to reread the Bee-L post my best recollection is that the treatment free bees were doing just fine prior to the commercial yards locating nearby. The sudden demise of the tf bees was all the "proof" needed. Keep in mind that it was the commercial beekeeper who made the Bee-L post.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Okay...I made that post on Bee-L.

As you know, I winter hundreds of nucleus colonies. I have several apiaries, dedicated to nucleus colonies. They each hold 50-90 nucs. 

The winter of 2011-2012 was the winter that never came. The bees wintered exceptionally well, with losses under 10%. This is over the 35 apiaries I own and manage.The nucleus colonies, in March, were already bursting with bees...every apiary but one. In that yard, half were dead, and most of the rest were weak. Sick looking bees, greasy, but not poopy. What happened?? So we're trying to figure out what we did differently here than the other yards. 

Then some guy drives into the yard, gets out of his vehicle, and starts wagging his finger at me. Didn't I know he had 10 colonies right over there in the woods...hidden from view of course. I guess I was supposed to know by divine intervention. "Non of my bees would build up and they all died". 

I asked him where he got his bees...Some packages from Betterbee, and some from his club's president. Packaged bees!

So I guess he figured since I had a nuc yard next to him, that my bees prevented his bees from building up and thriving. Of course, my nucs never got set up until July, so.....

Anyway, I took some samples and check under the scope. No need for 400x. At 40x, the nosema spores showed up like a Christmas tree! By the way...I don't use fumidil. All the nucs, in all the dedicated apiaries, were made with brood and bees from the same group of nucleus the previous summer, and had the whole mix of daughters from all of my breeder queens. No outside source of bees here.


Funny, I'm just remembering another beekeeper who came into one of my apiaries this spring, when Kork and I were reversing. All his bees died. Never built up and wouldn't even draw out their second box, and all the bees were gone in the spring. More packages from the same club president.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Mark, Recognizing a happy bee is an observation thing.

So what are the typical ethics of a White American Male? I suppose you can find and list that or you can just say the typical beekeeper is a White Male. The same can be said for age, religion, Sexual orientation, Average size of household, predominant geographical region.

Each group does in fact have an underlying ethical code they have chosen to adopt. Adherence to that code is variable so at best the profile is broad.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

michael, do you feel as though the nosema found its way into your hives from those other 10? does it happen when the other hives get weak, and then are robbed by your bees?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

MP, isn't the rest of the story that your neighbor ended up getting some bees from you and you made a friend out of an adversery?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> Each group does in fact have an underlying ethical code they have chosen to adopt. Adherence to that code is variable so at best the profile is broad.


Each group an underlying ethical code? I try not to generalize, though it may happen every now and then. I hesitate to say what a group will do, how a group will behave, what a groups ethics are. Individuals have ethics. As others have stated before, being responsible as a beekeeper, as a human, might aught to be an ethic to strive for.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Each group an underlying ethical code? I try not to generalize, though it may happen every now and then. I hesitate to say what a group will do, how a group will behave, what a groups ethics are. Individuals have ethics. As others have stated before, being responsible as a beekeeper, as a human, might aught to be an ethic to strive for.


I would reply, but I need to check with the white male union to find the appropriate response to ensure that I'm in-line.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I think someone else is the Steward of that Union, not me. So I hope you get back to us soon w/ your reply.

And to all the nonwhite, nonmale, and GLBT beekeepers on beesource, you know where I stand. or is it sit?


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## Gord (Feb 8, 2011)

I keep my bees because I like bees.
Honey is primarily an unwanted byproduct; a delicious one.
I don't sell it; I give it to friends.
I have 4 hives in town and 4 just outside of town.
I take good care of my bees; I won't drug them, but will use FGMO and/or essential oils.
I find that drugs often have additional side effects, which can "ripple" well beyond their intended purpose.
My bees are local survivor mutts; very docile with nice dispositions, unless they wake up on the wrong side of the comb.
I think it's a symbiotic relationship, and they're free to leave.
They aren't a commodity, and for the purposes of this discussion they are not livestock.
They're my pets.


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## Ripple (Jul 13, 2017)

crofter said:


> I have met people who wont use milk, eat eggs or honey because that would be exploitation of animals: in the meantime they were wearing leather boots and had a leather belt holding up their pants, so not much of their philosophy managed to rub off on me!


You never know if that person owned those items before they went on a plant based diet, or if they were pleather, or if they were used when the bought them.

This isn't the way all vegans/plant based veiw it, but I personally don't care if I buy used goods with animal products. Who am I supporting other than the thrift store? There is an argument of normalization, and I suppose impressions such as yours I suppose. But I personally am more concerned with consumer waste. (And it's always a good idea to point out inconsistencies to get the full picture anyway)

I actually am not opposed to beekeeping, so long as the bees are allowed to keep their lot of honey, and not fed sugar water, and they are not driven to stress from the way handlers work with them.

It is actually why I am here, I am trying to figure out how much damage is caused by their movement from farm to farm.


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## justbee01 (Jan 5, 2017)

crofter said:


> I have met people who wont use milk, eat eggs or honey because that would be exploitation of animals: in the meantime they were wearing leather boots and had a leather belt holding up their pants, so not much of their philosophy managed to rub off on me!





Ripple said:


> You never know if that person owned those items before they went on a plant based diet, or if they were pleather, or if they were used when the bought them.
> 
> This isn't the way all vegans/plant based veiw it, but I personally don't care if I buy used goods with animal products. Who am I supporting other than the thrift store? There is an argument of normalization, and I suppose impressions such as yours I suppose. But I personally am more concerned with consumer waste. (And it's always a good idea to point out inconsistencies to get the full picture anyway)
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, I have a friend that is vegan and did not eat honey. She will eat the honey from my hives because she understands that the hive/bees aren't killed or hurt in the process of harvesting honey. I explained that only the extra is harvested with the goal being to leave them enough to survive the winter and prosper.


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## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

This thread is 5 years old! That being said allowing bees to starve during a dearth due to an ethical desire to not feed them seems strange to me.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Most days it seems like the bees are using me.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I am really curious how a 5 yr old thread gets revived. I can see if you are searching for a particular topic and want to add to it or revive it, but most seem to be revived unintentionally. I barely have time to look at the first page of a topic. Are people going back looking at 50-100 pages or more?
I was going to add something to this thread and then realized how old it was. Just curious. J


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Fivej said:


> I don't mean to offend anyone, but I am really curious how a 5 yr old thread gets revived. I can see if you are searching for a particular topic and want to add to it or revive it, but most seem to be revived unintentionally. I barely have time to look at the first page of a topic. Are people going back looking at 50-100 pages or more?
> I was going to add something to this thread and then realized how old it was. Just curious. J


Just because the thread is old doesn't mean we shouldn't open the floor for discussion.

Pressing issues exist today in the world of bees, gender, race, usury, etc.

Today is the day that the world gets to decide on those pressing concerns.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

sqkcrk, FYI Blessed Be is a religious reference but not the one you think. This is a Wiccan greeting that was popular in the 60's. Be Blessed is popular now as a Christian greeting.

I try to keep from using sugar as I feel it's poor nutritionally. I do make up sugar blocks and put them on in the winter to insure my bees make it through winter. 

I raise bees to use their honey in place of sugar for my sweets. I don't react negatively to honey as I do to sugar. I also raise bees to help pollinate my cucumbers for dill pickles. That being said I have a small lot 100' x 140' and keep my bees far away from my garden so they don't chase me out in the dearth. They seem to work my veggies better whey they aren't as close too.

I tried treatment free and foundation free and have given up on both of those.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

(I know this thread is 5 years old)

Interesting how the OP, with just 2 posts, wants to discuss beekeeping ethics, but then never posts in the thread again, or anywhere else on Beesource.

Methinks the OP was doing a college term paper for his Ethics 101 class, and had the forum members do his work for him. Oh to be young again.


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## RBRamsey (Mar 1, 2015)

Since this thread was reopened...

My reasons for raising honey bees is purely for selfish reasons. I eat the honey to help with my chronic sinus infections, which it has helped reduce the severity and frequency of infections. I used to have 8-10 infections a year, and because of a compromised immune system (IGG subclass 3 deficiency), I have to take 14-21 days of antibiotics to kick the infection. I have had 1 infection in the last 14 months.

After working with the bees, I discovered and another selfish reason the keep bees for the rest of my life. I broke my back 10 years ago (3 fractured vertebrae, 2 herniated discs), and suffer from chronic back pain. I am allergic to 20+ pain killers, and the ones I can take really don't help. I have learned that the bee stings really help reduce the back pain for me. I was at the point I couldn't walk on uneven ground like grass. I had to stay on hard smooth surfaces like concrete or I would fall over with strong muscle spasms, think charlie horse down the length of your back. I had to wait a few minutes until the spasm passed before I could get up, and I couldn't lift or carry much weight. Now, I can unload 50 pound bags of feed, carry bales of hay, and climb scaffolding ( to do bee cut-outs). All because of the bee stings. Bee stings are to me what spinach is to Popeye. Another analogy, bees are the opposite of Superman's kryptonite. Without bees I get weak and suffer. I need 15-20 stings per month to control the pain. I am stronger now than I was before I broke my back.

Lastly, I keep bees because I enjoy the little bugs. It has turned out to be a symbiotic relationship. I help them prosper and survive, and they help treat my illnesses.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Gender is a big deal in beekeeping, almost everyone prefers the female bees over the males.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

RBRamsey said:


> My reasons for raising honey bees is purely for selfish reasons.


here here
From a USA perspective, there is no other reason to keep a nonnative invasive species that displaces native pollinators in a box and propagate it, the beneficent is purely for the human "owner"


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

msl said:


> here here
> From a USA perspective, there is no other reason to keep a nativnone invasive species that displaces native pollinators in a box and propagate it, the beneficent is purely for the human "owner"


I see several things wrong with this thought.

1) Most people don't learn about the native species status until they are already in the hobby.
2) Any habitat improvements that are done, most likely benefit native pollinators as much as Honey bees.
3) The degree of displacement is debated.
4) Honey bees are used as part of the food production system. Learning about any/all aspects of the food production system is a good thing - it sure beats the pants off of the no animals were killed for this hamburger I bought at the supermarket mentality. In my area, there is heavy commercial pollination presence - I think it good that people understand what a swarm is and not freak out and spray it with the nearest can of wasp killer.
5) As new beekeepers learn about the non-native status bit, they also tend to learn environmental stewardship

I keep what I consider an educational apiary at home and have several yards in addition that are used primarily for honey production.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

1 irrelevant to the point
2 the improvement is being done for selface reasons, the side effect is not a reason to keep bees. 
3 plenty of studys out there seem to back that up, Bumble bees geting DWV and NC, along with how bees are effecting the spread of noxious weeds 
4 yes, that's why we keep them 

keeping honey bees is no different then any outher livestock, its not "good" for the (north american) environment, its good for us. How may hobbyists would keep them if they didn't produce honey?


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## CLSranch (May 15, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> Gender is a big deal in beekeeping, almost everyone prefers the female bees over the males.


That's funny. A good way to cheer up the ethical conversation



msl said:


> here here
> From a USA perspective, there is no other reason to keep a nonnative invasive species that displaces native pollinators in a box and propagate it, the beneficent is purely for the human "owner"


 Wow the absolute most negative way to put it. Yea everybody likes a profit if your already doing it. Saying that everyone (American) beekeeper or not is a greedy, selfish sob is a little to the left. But if this is your thoughts why do keep bees and why are you on this site.http://www.beesource.com/forums/images/smilies/scratch_head.gif


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Coming for some one who worked as a therapist, its not greed or selfishness, people do what benefits them be material or emotional. 
No one does good deeds "just cause" they do it because it gives them a good feeling (or not doing it gives them a bad feeling), this is how our moral compass works. The scary people are the ones with out this response to their actions.

I keep bees because doing so provides me pleasure, food , and at some point maby a few bucks 
the same reasons I kept quail, or tilapia, or why my wifes family ran 20 head of cows. or the people in the whole backyard chicken movement

For the most part a hobbyist being a beekeeper is not going to "save the bees" or "help the environment" any more then the hobbyist building model train sets in there basement.


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## CLSranch (May 15, 2017)

I agree with most all of that. Was even going to ask earlier but not wanting to rant, that if I want to sell my extra eggs out of my backyard chicken flock is that bad. You made it sound that it's just simply bad to keep honeybees of any sort because they are not native therefore were just doing it to help ourselves and hurting other pollinators. I'm still swatting the red wasp I don't care.
That may not have been your intended message, just the way it seemed to be presented.

Also If any hobbyist has a swarm they don't catch it increases the feral bee's. Maybe only 1 of 5 make it (or whatever number depending on area) but their is more than 5 hobbyist.
They may not be saving the bee's over night, but like my bank acct. every penny counts.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

It probably won't be a popular position, but ethics only belongs towards man. Animal ethics much of the time ends up being against and to the harm of man. All other things are created for the benefit of man, not you alone, or me alone, but mankind. 

That said, We should manage our bees in a way that benefits the needs of mankind, not merely ourselves. Healthy hives create more abundant resources for man to use. When we manage them in such a way, we have product to sell, which are resources for others, and we are rewarded for our management.

We shouldn't plunder and waste the resources around us, not because of ethics towards a bug or a rabbit, but because they are resources are for the good of mankind, not just our needs or pleasure. When you waste a deer in the woods or pollute a water source, you take away a resource someone after you may be able to use. You cause harm to man. 

If ethics belong upon bees, wouldn't it be unethical to swat a fly or a mosquito? You wouldn't trap that mouse that gets into your kitchen. You would even have the responsibility to leave food out for them to make sure they weren't suffering, and provide them a good safe home. And how dare you cut down a tree that a bird might use just to build your bee boxes. 

When ethics are towards man in a right manner, far more than bugs and rabbits are included in it. You wouldn't pick all the flowers in the park because someone coming after you would enjoy seeing them. You wouldn't carve your name on a tree because it would harm the next person's view of the lovely tree. 

Of course, we all know that there are an abundance of ethical violations around us all the time. But there's even an ethical response to that. The civil authorities should bring the law to bare upon those who violate this rule, for the good of mankind.


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## DR Beers (Apr 1, 2016)

Europeans are non native to the Americas, where is the line between left right and center?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Leaving aside the points I listed earlier, Honey bees have been in the US for over 400 years. The environment is not static. I'm ok with HBs. And yes, I've thought about it.


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