# If you were to start all over again, knowing what you know now.....



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

in what configuration would you keep your hives?

Me, I'd do all 8 frame deeps with solid bottom boards. Also the bottom board would serve as a combo bottom and top board. No inner covers.....

What would you do?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I'd do more research on the effect of comb interruption in the brood chamber. I use 10 frame double deeps - and they seem to work fine. I'm curious if the bees would do better without the division of the brood nest caused by our traditional frames.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Just what I am doing now. All 8 frame mediums, SBB, inner covers (not decided whether they should have a hand hole or not), and telescoping cover. My SBB's are home made. They are 2.5 in high, support the hive, and allow a plastic tray to be slid underneath.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

If I had to start again, I would treat all my new packages and or nuc's with OA and sugar spray at least a couple of times before hiving them, then I would not be struggling with a mite problem that I created by importing mites with my new bees.
john


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

DBL. deeps all the way nucs also.
SBBs {with insert] inter cover / top entrance/tel.top/entrance reducer.
I also use deeps for honey makes swopping things around a lot easier .
I have to do some frame manipulation to get things drawn out but once there drawn out my bees seem to do well in DBL. deeps but this all I ever worked with . I have one 8 frame deep hive{3boxes} that I wintered last year and it was dead in the spring it had 3 boxes this year I am trying again with this hive and there is only 2 boxes {less room} so we will see how they do this winter . Good luck.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Stay with standard 10 frame deep brood nests and 8 1/2" honey supers. If pollinating was my business I would use 8 frame double deeps.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

johno said:


> If I had to start again, I would treat all my new packages and or nuc's with OA and sugar spray at least a couple of times before hiving them, then I would not be struggling with a mite problem that I created by importing mites with my new bees.
> john


I hear you that's the biggest problem for me so far in the 4 years I have been at it .
Look in to OAV it's working well for me so far . I just started to use it this past summer and I have killed 1000s and 1000s of mites and no queen problems so far. I hope you win your war with VARROA.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I have 25 - 30 hives so what works for me wouldn't be the same for a lot of others. I've tried a lot of different configurations before I decided what I like best, and I have mostly converted all of my motley equipment to that favored configuration:

All covers equipped with jar feeder holes and build ups so they don't leak rain - I also use pail feeders with the same configuration when heavy feeding is needed.

Also all covers have a metal surface so they are durable and don't leak.

All hives equipped with robber screens that can either be easily removed or are closed on the bottom with an entrance reducer so that things like beetle traps or vaporizers can be put in without a lot of extra work.

All 8 frame mediums - I've gone back and forth about this decision - until I hurt my back 2 years ago. Other than the lower weight though a single makes a pretty good "nuc" so you don't need as much non-standard equipment.

The jury is still out on bottom boards, but they all need certain features - an opening high enough to slide a vaporizer through. If it is screened it needs to be easy to close. If it is screened the screen needs to be small enough to keep out hive beetles.

I also like 1 1/8" holes in my hive bodies that can be used as alternate entrances above an excluder or for extra ventilation when the bees are trying to cure honey. That size can be securely plugged with the plastic lid from a bottle of water or a metal bottle cap.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Go with 8 frame deeps plus one 8 frame medium as the standard colony configuration. Converting slowly now. Just a tad easier on the back


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

I have a mixture of sizes now but am slowly converting to 2- 8 frame deeps with solid bottoms and medium supers.When you are old,size matters.Things would have been simpler if I had started with this configuration.I also now have inner covers with a mason jar hole for feeding.I like that feature and they are easy,and cheap, to make.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Good comments above. I'll add this, what I did right.

I've been breeding livestock, (Horses, rabbits, turkeys, etc) for over 35 years
Of course when you are young, you don't really have any money and buy what you can afford for your breeding stock. But after many years, it occurred to me, I would have been* much *farther, and _*money*_ ahead if I have just spent a little more on better quality original stock. 
So when I started out with my bees, although I was inexperienced with beekeeping, I purchase the best genetics I could find.

That was the Glenn II stock. (And collected local swarms in remote areas) I taught myself to rear queens immediately, starting out with walk away nucs which anyone can do. Then went on to both grafting and using the grid system.

I wouldn't have the quality stock I have today nor the overwintering success I enjoy, had kept the queens in the packages and nucs I purchased originally(Brought up from CA to Washington state). It would have taken a few years to weed out the inferior genetics which probably would have weeded them out themselves as dead outs, and years to overwinter and multiply genetics that did well in my area. Everyone wants the cheapest packages and nucs they can find. But requeening ASAP with proven genetics from YOUR LOCAL CLIMATE will probably save you ten fold over the cost of a few queens. 

You must also understand, queens raised very early in spring for nucs and packages are going to be of questionable quality. When days are still short, weather is unpredictable and production volumes are high with pressure to produce on schedule, keeping -or betting on- a queen of unknown genetics and mated success is a gamble. A gamble in which you will bet not only the productivity, but survival of your entire colony. I'm not saying the producers are selling you junk. They are simply doing the best they can with the timing of early availability, which the public demands. I would let the package queens build up your colonys until local queens are available. That will give you time to scrutinize their performance. I'd replace any queen that didn't knock my socks off.

In my opinion, June mated queens are best.

I too have gone from 10 frame and 5 frame nucs to all_* 8 frame deeps*_. Not because of the weight, but because they are a _*perfect all around box for multi use*_. Big enough for a nuc with an in interior feeder and room to grow. Big hives get just one extra 8 frame box for same volume as 10 frame equipment. Taller more narrow tower hives which overwinter very well. I'm just turning my 10 frame deeps into divided deep mating nucs and swarm traps, which makes great use of old equipment.

I tried the SBB, but am going to solid bottoms now simply because of ease of construction, ease of maintenance and cost. The #8 screen has become too expensive and not necessary on both top and bottom. I have my #8 inner screened covers and just crack my lid for summertime ventilation if necessary. 










Here's a good example of 8 frame deep use. I started this nuc with three frames and an interior one gallon feeder in a five frame nuc box. If I had kept it in five frame equipment, it would be four high by now. If I put them in 10 frame equipment they would have empty frames for overwintering. 8 frame deeps are just right.










My favorite piece of equipment? My screened inner covers as you see here with a screened BB for 8 frame. 










I can do so much with this screen, feed through it, get a quick glance in the hive without my veil, crack the lid for ventilation without risk of robbing. Flip it over for room for sugar brick. Etc.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

snl said:


> in what configuration would you keep your hives?
> 
> Me, I'd do all 8 frame deeps with solid bottom boards. Also the bottom board would serve as a combo bottom and top board. No inner covers.....
> 
> What would you do?


Every time I lift a box I think every other way but the current one is way better. :scratch:

Each style and shape has its own benefit and drawback for both the bees and the beek.

As I explained to GB on the phone last night............ I think the bees do best in the old Dadant 11" boxes with the massive frames. Closest thing commercially available in the last 100 years that replicates what most swarms choose when occupying a tree cavity. I canned all the ones I "inherited" because they were killer on the wrists during inspections.

If moving by hand........... 8 frame deeps

If one has age or back issues.......... 6 5/8 for the whole outfit.

The "true" answer" to this question is so varied I think the whole of the internet could be filled to the max and the "correct" answer would never be achieved. I'm not much of a relativist but in this case the only rule that applies is " to each his own."


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I have settled on deep brood chambers and a combination of deep and medium supers. If I didn't try and get some comb honey production I would probably go with all deeps. Having one size box and frame makes life very easy.

I'm on the bubble over screened bottom boards. I still use them for increased ventilation.

I think the biggest change I have made is genetics. It takes bees to make honey. I am in the process of converting over to all italian queens.

Tom


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I first started with a hybrid long hive/top bar set-up. As I have grown in size, I have less time to devote to these hives and have found an 8 frame deep with a single medium for a brood chamber is the best production set-up for me. I run mostly foundationless in the brood chamber, but use Rite-Cell in the supers. I also run a solid bottom, home-made inner covers with 78mm jar openings, and a vented Vivaldi top or quilt box. All of my desert hives have corrugated metal roofs, and provisions for metal sun shades when the sun is going strong in June so the hives don't end up a pile of melted wax.

I have had ventilation issues in the desert with the long hives, and mostly use them where it is not so hot. When they are in the desert, I have to constantly fight heat related comb collapse. They are a good set-up, but require more work than the 8 frame deeps. I am gradually relying on them less and less for production. They have become my nucleus breeders, a job which they will probably keep. I have 25 hives, about 1/3 are the long style. They breed the next season's colonies to fill the 8 frame deeps. I have limited myself to 25 hives, as I cannot keep up with them and my full-time job if I don't.

If I were to do it over again, I would probably just have gone straight to 8 frame deeps, but the long hives do have certain advantages and I could not see myself without at least a few of them. Never messed with top bar, and sort of glad I did not - foundationless is close enough but still productive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

snl said:


> in what configuration would you keep your hives?
> 
> Me, I'd do all 8 frame deeps with solid bottom boards. Also the bottom board would serve as a combo bottom and top board. No inner covers.....
> 
> What would you do?


Start all over again NOW? Knowing what I know now? Or starting all over again when I started and knowing what I know now?

If I were able to start all over again knowing what I know now, back in 1976, I would concentrate on studying small business more. I would borrow $100,000.00 from FSA instead of $30,000.00, so I could get closer to what it takes to do what it takes to be commercial. I'd palletize earlier and get into more pollination earlier and maybe not bother selling honey direct store delivery any distance from home.

I'd probably still keep bees in dbl deeps, but I'd have better equipment than I do now. I'd have my own extracting plant. I'd insist on all of my kids learning about bees and how to work them, the wife too. I'd spend more time w/ my kids.

I might go to FL to Winter bees and to CA for almonds and to ME for blueberries. I might work at it more. But, knowing myself, probably not. I don't work that hard at anything.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I'd like to add, I should have started 30 YEARS ago!


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## homesteader824 (Jun 9, 2012)

I've never had over four hives, so take this for what it's worth. I have actually thought about this, and I think I would use all medium boxes to standardize equipment, rather than separate deep and shallow that I run now. Our club has one commercial beekeeper who does this. I also would at least consider 8 frame setups over the 10 frame boxes I use now. Lifting those full deep brood chambers when it's 90F really wears me out, but I have a bad back. I already use SBB under each hive, so I would not change that.

The more I think about it, there have been many times where having all mediums would have been handy. I have often run short on honey supers, and it seems when I've wanted to expand to more hives in the past, I was always short on deeps. Using all mediums would make things simpler. And I don't know how many times I have seen bees not use the outer frames in my 10-frame boxes, so I think 8-frame boxes would work as well, and be a little lighter.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Actually, I did start over. I started out in 1991 but in 2005 hurricanes completely wiped me out. When they were done with me, there wasn't even a wood scrap left, just the row of concrete blocks that marked where the hives once sat.

This time 'round I am all 10-frame deeps on IPM bottom boards that include oil pans under the screening. No inner covers but I still use telescoping outer covers. I use the deeps for supers too and I am starting to use plasticell foundation now that I've finally used up the boxes of Duragilt that managed to survive the storms. My goal is to keep the whole shebang as simple as possible. After some experimentation I am even back to my same old hive stands on blocks because they are easy to move around as needed and are the perfect height for my back.



Rusty


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Starting out with what I know now? I would have started using OAV right off the bat. I would never have made screened bottom boards, only wasted money on that stuff (i make only two hive pallets now with solid bottom boards). I would have made all migratory tops from the get go instead of wasting time and money on telescoping tops, those tops are now used as drip pans when I pull the supers. 

Other than that, I use double deep 10 framers and mediums for honey supers and will continue to do so.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

BeeGhost said:


> Other than that, I use double deep 10 framers and mediums for honey supers and will continue to do so.


Going to run with three deep 10 frame and then mediums above that. I like the flexibility of moving deep frames among the three deeps.

I'd stay away from queen excluders. Resulted in a swarm and poor honey production. Got honey after I removed it and had been moving open brood above it.

Having tried bottom entrances, mid height entrances and top entrances, plan to run with all bottoms next season. Get a lot of bees flying when remove a top entrance and work a hive. I think the top entrances causes brood being moved upwards. Bees prefer the brood close to the entrance. Using stucco wire to keep the skunks away from the entrance.

Maybe had my mid height entrance was too open, but bees were reluctant to consider supers above it as part of the hive. They filled one deep above it but second deep above it was feathers when it should easily have been full of capped honey.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I would have standardized my equipment from day one. Whether 8/10 frames or mediums/deeps. I don't think it matters much, but having one frame across the board is pretty key in my opinion. I'm still a little undecided on whether it should be deep/medium or 8/10 frame. 

I wouldn't be afraid to replace/kill a queen if she's not up to snuff.

I'd take a more proactive approach to feeding. I've lost a few hives due to my not wanting to feed or thinking they might pull through. The same hives, I could have fed and split vs an entire loss.

I would sink poles and big a level and stable table for the hives to sit on. Cinder blocks seem to shift over time and I'm dealing with the leaning tower of honey.

I'd strap down my mini-nucs... I had 20 of them scattered/destroyed by raccoons...


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Good points Kevin,

I agree, I fell into the same boat about feeding this year.... should've fed all my nucs sub and syrup til they filled a single 8 or 10 frame box or were ready to go into a double deep 8 or 10 frame box. Last year was much better foraging for whatever reason, did not see such a major dearth coming this summer/fall. I'd also say go with 1 size of box and frames.... no need to have different sizes around. 

I'd also probably go with a Maxant or Dadant extractor as well, not the ML one I got, but I'm not saying it's garbage, I just didn't follow my typical rule when buying equipment for some reason. 

I should've bought a roller to paint boxes as well, not a brush. The airless works great for large batches. 
I would've bought some of Glenn's and Purvis Breeders instead of putting it off til "next year"
Put out more swarm traps and bought land when it was cheap and easy to find
Design a more functional bottom board for monitoring and treating mites


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Lauri said:


> I'd like to add, I should have started 30 YEARS ago!


Then you would have known beekeeping before either of the mites were here. 

I started 40 years ago. Still, I would have done things differently. I never would have got involved in apple pollination. Used to do 600 by hand. Shoulders are toast now. Wouldn't have placed so much importance in chasing the bumper honey crop around the countryside, and I would have begun growing my own bees and queens 35 years ago.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Shoulders are toast now... I would have begun growing my own bees and queens 35 years ago.


If there are any newbies reading, this is one area were they should really take advice from experience. You can't go back and do it over again so why repeat the mistakes of others when you know what the outcome will be if you do the same thing.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Well the op referred to hive configurations but let me stray a bit as well. I couldn't agree more with MP about queen raising. When I first started managing a commercial outfit 40 years ago we were still on the package/commercial queen treadmill. From a profit standpoint the best thing I ever did was to get palletized and raise our own nucs in the south for a small fraction of what we used to spend yearly on queens and packages and ended up with far more productive hives. Before one opines too much about the good old days of beekeeping before mites one should keep some perspective. Yes it was much easier to raise bees and a honey crop 30+ years ago but boy was it hard work and inflation adjusted honey prices were much, much less.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> Wouldn't have placed so much importance in chasing the bumper honey crop around the countryside, and I would have begun growing my own bees and queens 35 years ago.


Slightly off track but are you saying there is more money in bees than honey (or am I reading something more into this?)


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Can we get back to hive configurations and why you would do it differently? New beekeepers reading this have much of their investment (and future hive management pratices) in woodenware and perhaps reading either mishaps (or successes) will help them decide which path to take. And .....it might even change some of the "long-lived" beekeepers points of view.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Slightly off track but are you saying there is more money in bees than honey ....

_- then immediately followed by -​_
> Can we get back to hive configurations and why ...


 Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde? :lookout:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

snl said:


> And .....it might even change some of the "long-lived" beekeepers points of view.


I would doubt that very much. People have their own reasons for why they use certain equipment. The forum is full of discussions on this and the viewpoints are as varied as any beekeeper. The tread topic is an implication for people to spill there guts. Why should it just be limited to equipment?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > Slightly off track but are you saying there is more money in bees than honey ....
> 
> _- then immediately followed by -​_
> > Can we get back to hive configurations and why ...
> ...


Yeah, I know ...........do as I say not as I do! :no:


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Why should it just be limited to equipment?


Because that's where it all starts....... Ya see, it's my thread (I started it) and if you don't like it, I'll just take "my ball & go home!)


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Acebird said:


> The tread topic is an implication for people to spill there guts.



To put it a little differently, it is a thread topic opportunity for the experienced to _generously_ share what they have learned and for beginners to benefit from those with years of experience.


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## papa (Oct 4, 2010)

mgolden said:


> I'd stay away from queen excluders. Resulted in a swarm and poor honey production. Got honey after I removed it and had been moving open brood above it.


LOTS of people in our club had that problem this year, including me. The problem for me was that I had no drawn comb for the supers, and the bees saw no reason to go through the excluder. I had one hive swarm (which I caught), but the original hive it came from died out by august and I got NO honey from it. I got some wet frames from a friend and took out the excluders until the bees started drawing it out and putting up honey, then I went back and put the excluders on and inner covers with a top entrance.

Next year I will leave the excluders off until the bees are in the supers, then put the excluders on.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Manage the hives in single deeps right from the start


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

Started in 1963. If I were to start all over again, I would have purchased all of my equipment in cypress wood (much cheaper then than now.) After fifty years, I still have the cypress supers purchased in the late sixties. I would only use the fume board method to take off the honey supers and not bother with any other methods. I would never bother with queen excluders and only wait until the bees built up a honey barrier before placing on the empty honey supers. I would build as many swarm traps as I could conveniently handle, free bees are even better than making splits. OMTCW


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

snl said:


> Slightly off track but are you saying there is more money in bees than honey (or am I reading something more into this?)


If you want to make money from beekeeping sell what beekeepers need. To paraphrase something my Father said when I got interested in beekeeping as an occupation. He grew up in Iowa where it was obvious that the Supply and Equipment and Machinery Dealers were more well off than those who needed them, the farmers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

snl said:


> in what configuration would you keep your hives?
> 
> Me, I'd do all 8 frame deeps with solid bottom boards. Also the bottom board would serve as a combo bottom and top board. No inner covers.....
> 
> What would you do?


Two deeps for the brood nest and shallow supers for the honey supers. No excluders. All frames and boxes purchased from the same supplier. Palletized for migratory purposes. I'd reconsider raising my own queens and do so. But that isn't equipment. I'd use better migratory covers w/ space for fondant or protien patties. Like our mutual friend CK.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

snl said:


> Slightly off track but are you saying there is more money in bees than honey (or am I reading something more into this?)


Good honey crops don't come every year. I can sell all the bees and queens I can grow, and it's dependable income.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

snl said:


> Can we get back to hive configurations and why you would do it differently?


I've run two deeps and a medium as the broodnest almost forever, after a brief start with three deeps. I wouldn't go back.


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## urbanoutlaw (Nov 19, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Two deeps for the brood nest and shallow supers for the honey supers.


Why is that? After one season, I'm considering the same thing, but it's more for the sake of my husband's back and my arthritis.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I'd use better migratory covers w/ space for fondant or protien patties. Like our mutual friend CK.


Do you have a photo of this cover? How big is the space from bottom of cover inside to top of the frames? Does he have issues with burr comb?

Buy hive tools by the dozen!

My advise doesn't come from years of experience so take it for what it's worth.

You have to travel your own road, the value of any equipment configuration can't be fully evaluated until you've used it for yourself with your methods for a period of time. The benifits and faults maybe slow to show themselves and will be different to some degree for every person and system.

Try to make the best choice for yourself and plan an escape. What's the potential loss if you decide you don't like a configuration style that you bought into and now want to sell?

It's like poker you won't learn anything if you don't play with real money.


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## Just Krispy (Aug 1, 2013)

I would get black plastic frames. Its so much easier to see eggs and brood.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I did start all over again a few years back. Sold most of my hives (all deeps) and started over from scratch with all mediums. The left over deeps I still had were cut down to mediums and the trim used for sugar rims. With rotator cuff issues, going to all mediums was the best decision I ever made. Not only is it physically more tolerable for me, but the interchangeable frames from brood nest to supers opened up so many more management opportunities for me, it's just incredible. 

I switched to all top entrances a while back, wish I would have done that from the start. No more skunk issues, and no more inner covers needed. I held off making the switch for a long time as I listened to the horror stories of mass confusion during inspections with top entrances .. that's not the case.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Just Krispy said:


> I would get black plastic frames. Its so much easier to see eggs and brood.


Agree with the black foundation. Like the wood frame and black plastic foundation.

I have problems with the Peirco one piece plastic frames and foundation warping - maybe from hot waxing I was doing. Then need to put the frames in with warp all the same direction, as otherwise bees decided to build bridge comb between the warps.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

urbanoutlaw said:


> Why is that? After one season, I'm considering the same thing, but it's more for the sake of my husband's back and my arthritis.


I figured early on that when I got older I would find it easier to lift smaller boxes full of honey. Plus, that's what was most available when I bought hives and supers or just supers.

If managed properly, one can almost never have to lift a deep full of honey. But it will happen. I like dbl deeps for brood chambers for the amount of uninterrupted by wood comb for the queen to lay in. And no way am I going to run Jumbo Dadant Frames.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I went on a bee hobby hiatus in 1991 when the widow of the man who let me put my hives on his property SOLD MY THREE HIVES less than a week after is his unexpected death! It just wasn't in the cards to have bees for the last few years of my military career. When I started over, I'm happy to have gone with 8 frame Deeps for brood chambers. 

Wooden frames with plastic foundation, black for brood chamber.

Now using both deeps and mediums for supers. Truth is, a medium super is plenty heavy when it is shoulder high and full of honey. All 9 of my hives are solid bottom boards now. Alternating between telescoping and migratory covers.

I prefer feeding via a 1 gallon bucket inside an empty deep box. WE have lots of feral bees in the neighborhood who rob at the drop of a hat.

A big thing is the apparatus you choose to get the hives off the ground, plan that early on and it will pay dividends first day. HTH


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

I would go with all 8 frame mediums....with solid bottoms, inner covers and telescoping covers .....with foundationless frames!


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

Instead of a kit, I'd start with a commercial suit, stainless hive tool, and two wood hives with one super each (short honey flow here and the hives are close). Pay more attention to bees than advice.

My plastic insert miller style feeders are easy, but I'd spend more time finding a less expensive alternative.

Like tomatoes, home harvested honey beats the best money can buy, but the cost of bees and gear is tough to justify for your own consumption. I'm small scale and evolved to crush and strain as per Mike Bush, but use a drill driven mixer to crush. I use all plastic deep brood frames for convenience and cut comb foundation in shallow supers. I can't justify the effort against cost for sections or frames, but now make my tops and bottoms. 

I keep threatening to try the Damaree Method. Today I drilled entrance holes in two deeps sized for shipping plugs collected from recessed light fixtures in anticipation of next year.

I now prefer to do with what's handy instead of the newest idea since many of them became faded fads.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

Great thread, enjoyed reading it all...


starting over... standardize STANDARDIZE!!! when I needed to give frames of honey I couldnt.. when I needed another hive.. all i had were med supers and didnt KNOW enough then to USE them...
I considered going all deeps.. i can lift a full deep of honey with no problem right now... Fortunately I thought about that a bit, and while thinking, AND throwing hay bales,, I turned to throw a bay up onto the wagon,, and hit my knees HARD... pain shot through my back like a firestorm.. a week in bed gave me time to think... I WANTED 8 frame.. but already had ten frame. so I met in the middle and started cutting my deeps down... Having ALL the same size boxes and frames has proven to be SUCH a wonderful convenience.. I do have to admit, that having extra bottom boards, inner covers and tele covers makes keeping enough supers on hand for the flow a bit of a pain.. I ALWAYS find myself using them for new hives... But then.. that was part of the draw.. knowing I could sacrifice a super or two... or a dozen??? lol I would have started as others suggested with BETTER genetics.. YES, buy the cheap packages, get them rolling good, then replace the queens..
I would have started setting out swarm boxes as someone else mentioned.. as many as I could possibly handle, and i would have proliferated those survivor genetics..
Controversially.. I would have also started foundation less.. i dont mind plastic in the supers, but I LOVE foundation less in the brood chamber. I FEEL, more comfortable without that sheet of plastic between the bees.. do the bees care??? I dont have a clue!!! But I still like to let them leave holes where they want them. build the cells they want, and I like being able to cut out queen cells.. I dont have to move the whole frame with two, three or five queen cells on it.. I can cut them out, and put ONE in each nuc. Sell them and NOT tell my wife I have MONEY!!!!!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

OK, this may SOUND crazy, but I would not change a thing besides the plastic foundation(bees do not like it, not economical to recycle), which we inherited. We run a bottom board of our own design(and patent), wood and wax frames, single deep brood chambers, deep supers, innercover with oval hole, and telescoping roof, galvanized clad. To the best of our knowledge, we have used this setup since deeps where invented.

Straying a bit, the biggest regret was inheriting some used equipment with bees. We will never again buy any bees on comb or used equipment.

Crazy Roland


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Just Krispy said:


> I would get black plastic frames. Its so much easier to see eggs and brood.


And watch them warp in the summertime sun when they get tossed or knocked over?  Just Krispy fried we call them. 

The egg thing is the only good thing about them. Otherwise its hasta la vista for them with me. Already own 8000 to many. if you gave me more for free I'd hand them right back.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Starting over again I would go with the 8 frame setup but I am going to deal with the 10 frame deeps by removing some of the honey frames before lifting these deeps, that's kind of inconvenient but with 6 production hives that will not be a big problem. I did go with 1 medium and 2 shallows per hive for honey supers since I am fast approaching 60.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Honey-4-All said:


> Already own 8000 to many. if you gave me more for free I'd hand them right back.


Amen


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## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

If i were to start over again i would use all mediums,because you would only have to buy medium boxes medium frames.you would have what you need with you when you made splits,or needed to replace something, you would have it with you.I now have to take deep, medium,and shallow boxes with me when i go to the bee yard.I encourage all new beekeepers to standardize on one size equipment,what ever you are comfortable with,it just makes everything so much easier.

www.poorvalleybeefarm.com


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Honey-4-All said:


> And watch them warp in the summertime sun when they get tossed or knocked over?  Just Krispy fried we call them.
> 
> The egg thing is the only good thing about them. Otherwise its hasta la vista for them with me. Already own 8000 to many. if you gave me more for free I'd hand them right back.


Me too. I bought a few thousand mediums about 10 years ago. It's cause for celebration each time one breaks and goes into the "bone pile". I project at current rate of breakage that the last ones will be phased out of our operation somewhere around the year 2088 . In fairness, though, their advantages are price, additional comb area, easy to scrape top and bottom bars and their virtual unbreakability. Their primary negative for us is the problems they cause in an automated extracting system and how hard they are on your hands.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Their primary negative for us is the problems they cause in an automated extracting system and how hard they are on your hands.


I would have thought plastic frames would be better for automation because of their consistency and strength. Is it because the machinery was actually sized for wooden frames? This negative doesn't make sense to me.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I would have thought plastic frames would be better for automation because of their consistency and strength. Is it because the machinery was actually sized for wooden frames? This negative doesn't make sense to me.


Yes it does sound odd and I have no doubt the measurements of plastic frames are more precise. You would have to experience it to fully understand but the issue relates primarily to the inherent slipperiness of plastic and the thickness of the top bar compared to wood, particularly if they contain little honey. They are a bit more problematic autoloading into an uncapper and then they have to "travel" an incline to the extractor and be pushed into the extractor with an "air ram". The thin top bar of the plastic frame compared to the wood dosent give it a stable enough surface to push on and more often than not it will flip up and jam the mechanism. We try (on the uncapper end) to make sure that plastics don't run in consecutively to give the extractor operator the choice of bypassing a plastic to push on the next wood frame, though it reduces the capacity of the load by one frame.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I was short honey comb one summer and bought a bunch from a producer who was switching out all his plastic frames. He had a C&B extractor and was having terrible issues with the plastic frames slipping and flipping. The 120 frame machines have a steeper incline and with the air ram he said every load caused a problem. 
I use a 60 frame Cowen manual load and the plastic rarely gives any issues, except a bit when the frames are a bit light going through.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> I was short honey comb one summer and bought a bunch from a producer who was switching out all his plastic frames. He had a C&B extractor and was having terrible issues with the plastic frames slipping and flipping. The 120 frame machines have a steeper incline and with the air ram he said every load caused a problem.
> I use a 60 frame Cowen manual load and the plastic rarely gives any issues, except a bit when the frames are a bit light going through.


Yes Cowen seems to have solved most of the slippage issues on the long track by lessening the incline which required going to a smaller diameter reel and upping the extractor's rpm's to compensate. We used an older C&B with the steep incline for quite a few years and did fine as long as there is someone checking frames on the back side off the cutter and making sure that there are several wood frames behind each plastic one to help push them up. The C&B has a better mechanism that usually allows you to push on a plastic frame without it flipping up, with the Cowen its time wasted even attempting it. The larger diameter reel in the C&B does an excellant job of spinning out the combs. It's ironic in any extracting set up that the heavier the frames are the better the systems operate.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> It's ironic in any extracting set up that the heavier the frames are the better the systems operate.


Pushing a gang of frames like what I saw in a youtube video can only lead to light frames popping up. A small rail or boggy system from the top could eliminate the problem. Mixing plastic with wood will most likely increase problems because of the dimensional differences. Automation requires controlling variations in order to run smoothly. When an operation switches from manual to automate there is a resistance to add the costs of controlling these variations because they didn't matter for the manual operation. If the resistance is too strong the automation project usually becomes a failure because it causes too many stoppages. Accepting the changes up front allows you to reap the benefits of automation and then everything goes smoothly. Understanding what the equipment requires for in-feed is the key to success. Some things can be done to accept variations but in general there is usually a compromise. Time is money when you automate. Stoppages will kill you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Pushing a gang of frames like what I saw in a youtube video can only lead to light frames popping up. A small rail or boggy system from the top could eliminate the problem.


Huh? What are you talking about? "light frames popping up"? Popping up where? In an extractor? I'd have to see the video you have refered to before I unequivically say that frames never pop up in a powered extractor. 

Remember the Honey House where we met? When we get down to the last boxes in the Hot Room we usually don't have enough to fill the extractor, so we space out the full frames and put empties in between. This is done to balance the weight of the load as best as possible. Empty combs never pop up.

You could run an extractor w/ the lid open and not have frames fly out of it. I know you understand centrifical force. Leastwise I assume you do.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mark, this is a totally automated system where a gang of frames is pushed into a horizontally revolving extractor and the empties are pushed out of the extractor at the same time. Nothing even remotely the same as what we were doing in New Hartford.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qi69a7YFOA


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

This really surprise's me !!!!, I would have bet the farm and the cows from the beginning of this thread that it would have been overwhelming to go all mediums .Most other threads on the subject of woodenware were all for med. , I didn't know so many liked 8 frame equipment so much !!! I can see the 8 frame part because most of my deeps have pretty much untouched outer frames , how does weight compare from 8 frame deep to 10 frame med. , one down side might be they can't be extracted radially , probably not a big deal to turn them .


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> compare from 8 frame deep to 10 frame med. , one down side might be they can't be extracted radially 

While _entry level_ extractors from many vendors cannot handle deep frames radially, if you move up a few $$, virtually all vendors offer extractors that can extract deeps radially. Here's one example:
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/category/page115.html
Brushy Mtn and Maxant offer similar competitive models.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I paid a premium for equipment to help a widowed woman along. It was January, and I was fortunate to find three packages from an old, reputable provider. I read some info and studied how to hive bees, mostly "you tube" stuff. That being said, were I starting again, I would find a mentor before the bees arrived, even if it cost some big bucks. I can read and recite facts pretty well, but hand's on experience and "monkey see, monkey do" is what I need to solidly information. There was not a bee club within 75 miles of me, and I did not have any on site help the first two years. When I finally had a couple of experienced beekeepers assist me, it created an intellectual quantum leap.

Like lake trout, if I knew then what I know now, this 74 year old fellow would go all eight frame mediums. Those eight frame mediums and a maximum of 50 pounds are nice.


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## frankthomas (Aug 2, 2012)

What a great thread! I am going to study this one. I am in my first year with 2 hives, each double deep 10 frame with medium supers. I'm an ex construction worker big guy and couldn't believe how heavy my top deeps got at the end of this summer. 

I plan to add 4 more hives this spring and will be building woodenware this winter. I need to standardize on something and there are a lot of great ideas here based on experience.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'd buy two hives and bee happy. 

I'd work for a commercial beekeeper and not own any of my own. 

I wouldn't be me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I started over again a couple of times... they are all eight frame mediums, and I only buy solid bottoms and conver them to feeders and I use only top entrances and no excluders...


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

I'm just starting out and as with other threads I've read this year, this one is proving to be invaluable when it comes to helping me make decisions on which approaches to take. Right now I have 4 "small cell" hives, all started from NUCs purchased from a local supplier, housed in 8 frame equipment. My brood chambers are made up of one deep and one medium, no queen excluders, solid bottom boards and no chemicals. For SHBs, I use beetle blasters with mineral oil and I purchased a Maxant 9-frame power extractor because I just don't have the time or desire to crank a manual one. As far as bee suits go, I started with your basic cotton/polyester suit, but after getting bitten over 50 times by the ladies in one of my more aggressive hives, I decided to flip out the big bucks and buy an Ultra Breeze and have never regretted that decision. I also use two pair of the blue nitrile gloves now instead of the cowhide ones I originally bought because they allow me to better handle the frames without worry of getting stung. Yes, I am comfortable enough in my skin to admit it. I do not like getting stung and if it takes a few extra bucks to minimize that possibility, then so be it, because I truely love taking care of these little ladies. :gh:


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm running almost all 8 frame mediums, migratory tops, and screened bottoms. I haven't 100% decided if I'm in love with this setup. It had a lot going for it, but I might change out a few things.

I think you ultimately need to decide what your going to be doing. i.e. Home Hobbyist, Commercial Honey Production, Queen Rearing, Pollination.

I believe that once you decide on your "core" goals, then you can make a determination on equipment. 

For the home hobbyist, I don't think it matters what you keep the bees in. It could be an old box made out of pallets or a gilded bee sanctuary on ivory pedestals. It's for your "enjoyment" and should be conducted accordingly.

Once you decided to do a larger "business" environment, it starts to make more sense to standardize your equipment. 

If your going commercial, then I think it makes sense to at least look at running 10 frames and probably deeps. It appears the be the "standard" and you'll probably be moving them on pallets. 8 Frame deeps might be a happy compromise. Less equipment to buy/build, but it's still "close" to what people are expecting to see.

For queen rearing, you need to take into account your mating nucs and what sizes they will be and how you will maintain/grow them.... I "might" make since to run 5, 8, 10 frame "brood" chambers, with a split 1/2 frames box above to grow them out. I've got a few 5 frame nucs that are in charge of growing out 10+ half frames that are stacked on top of these.

I'm not in the true "commercial" world yet, since I only have ~60 hives that I plan to grow out to several hundred. These are just observations that I have noticed.

I'm still trying to get all my ducks in a row, but I love reading these threads.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> I'd buy two hives and bee happy.
> 
> I'd work for a commercial beekeeper and not own any of my own.
> 
> I wouldn't be me.


Best of the day!!! :applause:


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## chickenia (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks SO MUCH for your input!!!! The pictures ALWAYS help too!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

westernbeekeeper said:


> Best of the day!!! :applause:


Ben, you're such a B-noser!


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

snl said:


> Ben, you're such a B-noser!


What??? :lookout: Do explain.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

snl said:


> Ben, you're such a B-noser!


I thought I felt something driving down the highway earlier.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

What a surprise ,I don't remember much talk about 8 frame deeps at all , wanting to get all the same boxes I was leaning towards all mediums.Right now I have 3 colonies all double deeps with med. supers .I like the deep size if I have to order more nucs, the frames will fit , the weight is almost the same as a 10 frame med which is good . ( 8 frame deep 68LBS. and 10 frame med. 65LBS ) How would I go about changing over , my deeps could be cut down for 8 frame easy enough or keep for swarm use , the mediums seem to be a waste , only thing that I can think of is cut them down for candy boards ,cutting down bottom boards and tops and inner covers seems like alot of work . Thought of just cutting down to 10 frame med. and use as all med. for a few colonies but them I'm still buying med. and deep frames and foundation , any ideas , my goal is 6 hives total for right now while I'm still working .I could use some ideas .


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Use the 10 frame on the bottom with spacer boards on each side. The spacer board could incorporate a piece of drip edge molding that will keep weather out from the gap on each side of an 8 frame box. The spacer could also be a drone frame or a feeder frame. I wouldn't hack up the 10 frame box to go to a 8 frame box. I would only cut it down if I wanted to go to mediums.


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## James Gauthier (Jul 4, 2006)

I would have begun working with bees when I was much younger. I missed out on advice from the older beekeepers and I could have learned so much from them. Also, it is the best sideline business I have ever had. It is so easy to sell honey.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I switched to all top entrances a while back, wish I would have done that from the start. No more skunk issues, and no more inner covers needed. I held off making the switch for a long time as I listened to the horror stories of mass confusion during inspections with top entrances .. that's not the case.


I've been intrigued by top entrances, but how do you keep the bottom of the hive clean or is that an issue for you? From what I understand, as I live in central Alabama where the small hive beetles rule, they can hide, lay eggs and hatch larva in the wax cuttings and trash that falls to the bottom of the hive. I don't want to use a screened bottom because I understand the SHBs have been known to crawl through the #8 screen. I guess I can make a trap door under the hive or do you do something different to make cleaning the hive floor a simpler task?


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

Wow, I didn't mean to stop this great thread. I guess the lack of answers to my top entrance SHB question means they are not a good idea if you live in an area where SHB roam freely.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

In my area, you just make an "attempt" to deal with the SHB. Whether through traps, DE, Lime... I don't notice more or less SHB in my solid or screened bottom boards. I've had more hives slimed out on solid boards than screened bottom boards. But, I generally try to keep my hives packed full of bees...


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

Good advice. Thanks Kevin!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I guess the lack of answers to my top entrance SHB question means they are not a good idea if you live in an area where SHB roam freely. 

I would not construe a lack of answers to mean anything... maybe someone in a SHB area could respond if they have tried top entrances...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't see why Top Entrances would have positive or negative impact on SHB. Is the idea that they would have a hard time getting into or out of the hive? There are SHBs in hollow tree hives aren't there? And those entrances are a lot higher than anything a beekeeper would maintain.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't see why Top Entrances would have positive or negative impact on SHB. Is the idea that they would have a hard time getting into or out of the hive? There are SHBs in hollow tree hives aren't there? And those entrances are a lot higher than anything a beekeeper would maintain.


The SHB is a great flyer, so I assume he has no issues flying into any hive opening. As KevinR eluded to, it's not how to keep them out, but rather how do you help the colony keep the SHBs from setting up house in the hive. To that end one of my mentors who has raised bees for decades in Alabama and Florida said the SHB can hide, lay eggs and hatch larva in the wax cuttings and trash that falls to the bottom of the hive. That's why he, as well as others where I live, suggest that if you use solid bottom boards, you need to keep them clean; hence why I was curious as to how you would keep the bottom of a top entrance hive clean other than to manually tear it down each time you wanted to inspect it. At least with a bottom entrance, you can take a flashlight and peek in to see how clean it is.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Apparently SHB are a big problem where I live, but I haven't lost a hive to them yet. I try to keep the size of the colony matched to the size of the cavity. In my long hives, I use a follower board to restrict the colony to a size the bees can control. However, lately I've been leaving a frame of empty comb at the end of my long hive colonies. When I inspect, which I do on an almost weekly basis, I take that frame out and rap it on the cover. SHB fall out and I can squash them with my hive tool. The first couple of times I did this, I got a dozen or so each side, but lately there have been a lot less, so either the season is diminishing the numbers, or this technique is helping a little. You couldn't do this if you had a lot of hives, I imagine, but for a backyard it seems to work pretty well-- at least as well as the beetleblasters and CD traps, which I have also used.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Boy, did this thread ever get off track! Then again ..........they practically all do!


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## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

snl said:


> in what configuration would you keep your hives?
> 
> Me, I'd do all 8 frame deeps with solid bottom boards. Also the bottom board would serve as a combo bottom and top board. No inner covers.....
> 
> What would you do?


why no inner cover


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Cedar Hill said:


> Started in 1963. If I were to start all over again, I would have purchased all of my equipment in cypress wood (much cheaper then than now.) After fifty years, I still have the cypress supers purchased in the late sixties. I would only use the fume board method to take off the honey supers and not bother with any other methods. I would never bother with queen excluders and only wait until the bees built up a honey barrier before placing on the empty honey supers. I would build as many swarm traps as I could conveniently handle, free bees are even better than making splits. OMTCW


I'm a new BEEK and I decided to go with all Cypress because I HOPE to be doing this 30 years from now...


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## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

Ian said:


> Manage the hives in single deeps right from the start


Can you expand on that a bit please. I notice you are from very cold climate, how well do they do in a single deep over the winter?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

hideawayranch said:


> Can you expand on that a bit please. I notice you are from very cold climate, how well do they do in a single deep over the winter?


He cheats a bit, and puts them inside a dark shed, where it doesn't get quite so cold. Outside temperature and wind, dont really matter when the bees are inside.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

hideawayranch said:


> why no inner cover


I use a combination top & bottom board. If you look at MB's site, he shows how he places "wedges/shims" on his top covers (pieces of plywood) to create a top entrance. I do the same but on the flip side of that same piece of plywood, I stapled a 3/4" x 3/4" rim all around except for a 4" opening. Now I use it as either or top or bottom depending on how I flip it. Just less equip to mess with. It's basically a modified migratory lid.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

barberberryfarm said:


> The SHB is a great flyer, so I assume he has no issues flying into any hive opening. As KevinR eluded to, it's not how to keep them out, but rather how do you help the colony keep the SHBs from setting up house in the hive. To that end one of my mentors who has raised bees for decades in Alabama and Florida said the SHB can hide, lay eggs and hatch larva in the wax cuttings and trash that falls to the bottom of the hive. That's why he, as well as others where I live, suggest that if you use solid bottom boards, you need to keep them clean; hence why I was curious as to how you would keep the bottom of a top entrance hive clean other than to manually tear it down each time you wanted to inspect it. At least with a bottom entrance, you can take a flashlight and peek in to see how clean it is.


Is your hive body nailed to the bottom super? Or does the first super simply sit on a flat board. If the boxes aren't nailed to the bottom board, simply tilt the boxes forward and scrape the bottom board cleam w/ your hive tool.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

sqkcrk: Great idea. Thanks Mark!!!!!!!!!


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Carefully tilt the hives forward... More so if you have a lot of supers.. Bees do not like falling across your shoulder and bouncing on the ground.... Ask me how I know..... *LAFFS*


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

Thanks! I'll remember that. I'm even thinking of latching my bottom board to the stand it sits on so the BB will stay flat when I tilt the hive forward.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

hideawayranch said:


> Can you expand on that a bit please. I notice you are from very cold climate, how well do they do in a single deep over the winter?


I winter indoors, single deep full to the brim with honey and sugar gets them through, my neighbour winters outdoors in singles, and also seems to get them to spring. 
The advantages of managing singles are you can better target pests during treatment, less brood comb to rotate out, and it allows for that second to be fully utilized by the queen while taking all the honey during harvest


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

barberberryfarm said:


> Thanks! I'll remember that. I'm even thinking of latching my bottom board to the stand it sits on so BB will stay flat when I tilt the hive forward.


What does your hive sit on now? The ground? A flat board?

If you have a two story hive which bees have been in undesturbed for some time you should have no problem tilting the two boxes forward w/out any problems. Even w/ a cpl of supers, you should be able to tilt the stack far enough that you could scrape the board under the hive.

I know guys who lay their whole hive back on the back side to take off honey. Boxes already glued together stay glued together until cracked apart w/ a hive tool. In my experience.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

He's a picture of my setup this past summer. Right now they each have one deep and one medium.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

That's entirely too pretty... and not nearly dirty enough... *grins* 

Although, I do plan on building several stands similar to the one you have... Minus the roof...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

barberberryfarm said:


> He's a picture of my setup this past summer.


You tip the hive back on that stand and you will find the whole hive on the ground probably in pieces. The supports should be out as far as the dimension of the bottom board. It wouldn't hurt to have them out farther and then have cross members to support the hive.


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Great idea!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'd be glad to show you what I mean, how it's done. But you'd have to come to where I am.

Of course, you could always break the hive down box by box and set them somewhere so you can scrape the stand. Then reassemble.

Or use a screened bottom board.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think I know what you mean Mark but look at his elevated stand. Unless you walk the whole hive forward on the bottom board the whole thing will fall of the stand. Moving the hive forward is not going to be easy unless he has the bottom board nailed to the stand. I would screw it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If he is smart enough to build that set up as it appears he has and therefore is, he is smart enough to figure out how to manage the bottom of the hive. If that's what he wants to do. I'm finished giving advice on this question. I think I have said as much as I can.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

LOL!! I built the shade cover to cool the hives down a little bit in the afternoon. It gets pretty toasty here in the summer. Hopefully I won't have my hurricane straps tested anytime soon ...


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

It would have been nice to have started with having both Top and Bottom Entrances from the start.

There is much less condensation issues in winter and little bearding on hot summer days.
The bottom entrance allows the base to be cleaned out easier and keeps the broodnest towards the bottom rather than moving up with just a top entrance.
It also seems to separate pollen foragers (bottom) from nectar foragers (top) a bit. 

I have a small bottom entrance and a larger top entrance in summer.

This design can be used as a base or top entrance and allows the entrance to be easily reduced:
(A hive mat is used instead of an inner cover.)


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I like that - it is similar to several designs I use, but more practical.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

MattDavey said:


> (A hive mat is used instead of an inner cover.)


Matt, how much of the top of the bars does the hive mat cover? 

Larry


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

What do you mean or use for a hive mat? Are you talking a piece of plastic, or a burlap sack? How do you reduce the upper/lower entrances? Do you see any problems with the small entrance on a full populated hive? Or is the white stick removable? 

Do you have a picture of the bottom/top seperate so we can see it's construction. Is there anything keeping the white stick from being pushed in to far on the unsupported side?

Thanks


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

A Hive Mat is like an inner cover. It is simply a sheet of flooring vinyl cut to size to allow a gap around the outside. The bees do not build comb above it unless they run out of room below. The mat is not heavy, so bees don't get squashed, and they can get out from under it.











The entrance reducer is just a stick (a strip of 3/4" pine.) Left it unpainted to show that it is removable. I have the bottom entrance as small as only 1/2" for several months of the year. 

Here is the inside of the lid/base. A shorter board on the inside stops the stick from going back into it and provides some insulation. The stick gets propolized into place.


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## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

When you build your hive stands make the inside deminsions so that you can slide the frames you are checking between the runners.Its like having an extra pair of hands.Keeps frames clean and you can't step on them.


www.poorvalleybeefarm.com


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

What type of plywood are you using? Do see any problems with delamination? I made some temp migratory covers with 1/2" Some of them are still doing good.. Others have warped a little bit.. I'll never understand the mysteries of wood. *grins*


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

MattDavey said:


> A Hive Mat is like an inner cover.


 The hive mat is intriguing. Can you state any advantages of it over an inner cover? You say a base. Is that a solid bottom board? I am not using mine so I could try your set up.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

MattDavey said:


> A Hive Mat is like an inner cover. It is simply a sheet of flooring vinyl cut to size to allow a gap around the outside. The bees do not build comb above it unless they run out of room below.


Matt, don't the bees propolize it to the tops of the frames?


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## Mr_Clean (Aug 31, 2013)

I would have got all of my woodenware from the same company. I also would have standardized to all mediums and gone foundationless.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I use marine grade plywood and marine grade polyeruthane varnish with UV protection.

One of the first lids I made of ply is starting to delaminate but I'm not sure if I gave it enough coats of paint. Make sure you paint the inside as well. Not sure how long they will last, but at least a few years.

The hive mat does get propolized, but it is easy to get off because it is flexible, it just peels off. Never had any problems with getting it off at all.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

MattDavey said:


> I use marine grade plywood and marine grade polyeruthane varnish with UV protection.
> 
> One of the first lids I made of ply is starting to delaminate but I'm not sure if I gave it enough coats of paint.


You might try an aluminiumized roof coating on the end grain like "Henry's 555". It will look silver not black. It is asphalt base so it can flex with the expansion and contraction of the end grain which the poly cannot.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

the problem with delaminating is what type of glue is used in the process. If it's interior plywood it will delaminate. I use T1-11 for my hive boxes and haven't had any problems with this even if I don't get to paint them right away. I have made lids, boxes, and bottom boards out of regular plywood and in under a year they have all delaminated. Some obviously worse than others, but all have. I made my own SBB's and painted them well. Before winter the first ply started to peal, and then from there it went down fast. Now I'm using all solid bottoms as many others are also. I haven't found a good grade of plywood that is exterior to use, however I know they make it. A friend of mine built lids out of plywood and didn't paint them. They were outside for over a year and looked great. (stained? yes, but not delaminated at all and showing no signs of it) I need to ask him where he got it and what it is, but I haven't yet.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I'd wish for square hives with shorter frames, frame rests all around. W/b so much easier to build.........


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I understand the square hive part... I don't understand the frame rests all the way around?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

KevinR said:


> I understand the square hive part... I don't understand the frame rests all the way around?


If it's square, the frame rests would/could be all the way around as it would not matter....


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Yea, but it's it's square, you could just turn the hive 90 degrees and now your frames face the other way. I don't see a purpose in cutting the frame rest when it's not required... I just wanted to know why you'd want it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

KevinR said:


> Yea, but it's it's square, you could just turn the hive 90 degrees and now your frames face the other way. I don't see a purpose in cutting the frame rest when it's not required... I just wanted to know why you'd want it.


Turn the hive 90 degrees and the only thing that has changed is the orientation of the hive itself, not the frames. If you meant "turn the [super] 90 degrees" the frames still wouldn't face the other way they would be 90 degrees to the previous orientation. What are you getting at?

If Box A's frames are oriented one way and Box B's, the box on top of Box A, frames are oriented 90 degrees to Box A's frames I would be concerned about bridge comb between the two sets of frames making frame removal difficult. I'd also have to stand in front of the entrance or behind the entrance to work the hive and then stand on the 90 degree side to work the box below. What a bother. I wouldn't do it. No benefit.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I was referring to turning the super, not the entire hive. Because that would be the only thing that would make sense on having a square hive/super. 

I have no idea, why you'd want to do it.. That's why I was asking the original poster... Sounded like more work with no gain... I thought maybe I was missing something.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

The reason for the frame rests "all the way around" is that I have a power feeder on my table saw and I just feed the wood thru and let dado blades rip the frame rests. With the wood all the same size(s) I'd just feed them all thru regardless of the orientation. 

But a square hive (again, shorter frames) to me just makes sense when producing them.... can't figure out why "they" went with anything else....


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have square 19 7/8" hives and never noticed a problem turning the boxes perpendicular to each other.
I just built a hexagon hive with frame rests all around and decided that it was a mistake. There is that much more thin wood at the top of the hive to break or rot. There is also that much less wide wood to give traction. The boxes offset that much easier. So I melted wax top and bottom to give some grip.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Ok, you convinced me on the thin wood all the way around, so only frame rests on two sides.. But I'd still like to have a square hive but with shorter frames. Lot easier to produce...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

snl said:


> .... can't figure out why "they" went with anything else....


For the balance when handling them. I worked some 12 frame hives on an Amish Farm in OH ages ago and they were ackward. 

And structural integrety. Have you ever noticed how many square cardboard boxes you come across? Why aren't egg cartons square? Or cereal boxes? Or boxes that reams of printer paper comes in? Or printer paper itself? There is something about rectangles which we seem to prefer.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I'd move first, get at least 10 acres under my control and plant heavily with clover and wildflowers and misc good bee food, THEN get my bees. And sbb bottoms with sticky, not those cheap mann lake jobs, I make my own, and yes inner cover in winter only, Feeder jar migratory top covers, I make those myself too, And I'd get out there and paint more often


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Have you ever noticed how many square cardboard boxes you come across?


Lots, but I get your point. However for beehive production purposes, square makes sense. Also, with shorter frames.........lighter to lift...........


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay. I look forward to seeing your square hives. Gonna make them all mediums too?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

A square hive with shorter frames is a Modified Warre. I started one last year for a client. 

http://www.thewarrestore.com/modifiedwarrehives.htm


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Why aren't egg cartons square?

Hard to arrange 12 eggs into a square. Or even 18, without damaging the eggs. But now 30s are _almost _square ...


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

A square is a stronger geometric figure than a rectangle. A triangle is the strongest geometric figure, and a square is formed by two equilateral triangles.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Then why aren't more things square?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Some people are square.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I would work for a professional for a season. Learn by doing. Saved myself years of time and money.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cg3 said:


> Some people are square.


And some are cubed.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Haven't kept my own hives long enough to say. But, I am definitely taking notes on the responses. I might actually print this thread out with all the advice that's in it and put it in my beekeeping records file. The only thing that is missing here is all of you sitting around in a circle, drinking coffee, with people like me just listening and taking notes. Awesome thread and too bad I haven't met any of you yet; hopefully in the near future.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

odfrank said:


> I have square 19 7/8" hives .....


Have you noticed the bees ignoring the outside frames on the square boxes? There are a lot of people moving to "narrower" boxes (8 frame) because the thought is that the bees prefer a more narrow vertical configuration. Just wondering what your observations are.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Massillon? That's near Canton?

Bees will ignore the outside sides of the outside combs. Don't ya think?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Mike Gillmore said:


> " boxes (8 frame) because the thought is that the bees prefer a more narrow vertical configuration. Just wondering what your observations are.


Not here, we use every bit if space


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

If you use an 8 frame box, you get 6 combs of brood of which 4 will be pretty much full and 2 will at most be 3/4 full. By running 11 frames in a standard deep, I get 7 pretty much full frames of brood plus 2 that are 3/4 full. In frame equivalents, that means 5.5 frames of brood in an 8 frame box or 8.5 frames in my 11 frame boxes. You tell me which one is more efficient for the amount of space consumed.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Massillon? That's near Canton?
> 
> Bees will ignore the outside sides of the outside combs. Don't ya think?


Yes, on the west side of Canton. 

Sometimes they will. I use top entrances on the long side of the boxes and once in a while they neglect the frame on the opposite side.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Fusion_power said:


> You tell me which one is more efficient for the amount of space consumed.


I use 10 frame boxes and it seems to work out ok. Once in a while I may rotate the outside frames in, but like Ian said, all the space is used. 

Just curious if there is a lot more frame manipulation needed in a square box.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I'm also looking at Short Deep frames, so they go across the width, rather than the length of the box. I think it makes more sense if you are going to use half width boxes as Nucs.

So the half width boxes with Short Deeps would have 6 frames each.

Frames are lighter, as they are about 3/4 a standard frame, so easier to hold in one hand too.

It's just a pity it's not a standard.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Have you noticed the bees ignoring the outside frames on the square boxes? There are a lot of people moving to "narrower" boxes (8 frame) because the thought is that the bees prefer a more narrow vertical configuration. Just wondering what your observations are.


I have had ten or twelve square Brother Adam hives since I visited him in 1978. Came home and built them. The bees fill the outside frames with honey and I harvest them fall and early spring to keep an unclogged brood chamber. My 33 years of observing them next to Langs long ago convinced me that they produce more honey. Only one box to search to find the queen. 11 1/4" deep frames for the queen to go crazy on. Those are 50lb.+ supers, medium depth.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> A triangle is the strongest geometric figure

True if it's made up of straight lines.

> and a square is formed by two equilateral triangles. 

Not true on two counts. A square is not a triangle unless you add a piece that goes from corner to corner. Until then it has no real stability other than the stiffness of the fasteners (nails?) If you bisect a square with another piece of something (wood I would assume) then you would have two triangles. They would NOT be equalateral triangles as an equilateral triangle has three angles of 60 degrees each. You would have two isocoles right triangles each made up of one 90 degree angle and two 45 degree angles. As far as structural stability neither a rectangle nor a square are very strong. There is no real difference.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

MB with the geometry lessons... 

*grins*

I don't even think that you can say a square box resembles natural tree cavities, because I've seen bee trees that there all shapes and sizes... I trapped a colony out of a 10inch diamter water pipe.. Comb was 4-6ft long, but there was only 4-5 of them.. Then I've cut out from a house/barn where the comb was in the soffets and 6 inches deep but 2 feet wide by 4-5 feet into the soffet... 30-40 combs.... 

I don't think the bees care as long as the space meets a certain volume requirement and is dry.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

KevinR said:


> I don't think the bees care as long as the space meets a certain volume requirement and is dry.


I agree. I think you will find more bees taking up residence in a house vs a tee-pee no matter how strong a triangle is.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

"If you were to start all over again, knowing what you know now....."

I'd get a dog. Those bees aren't nearly as cuddly as I was led to believe, and I cannot seem to teach them to fetch to save my life.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_My _bees _fetch _nectar and pollen and sometimes water just fine.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Edymnion said:


> "If you were to start all over again, knowing what you know now....."
> 
> I'd get a dog. Those bees aren't nearly as cuddly as I was led to believe, and I cannot seem to teach them to fetch to save my life.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Acebird said:


> I agree. I think you will find more bees taking up residence in a house vs a tee-pee no matter how strong a triangle is.


Lol. Next year one of my ambitions will be to have a tee pee bee yard! I will post pics too! I may call it the "pee yard" (is that too impolite?)


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

This thread was an inspiration. Time to quit pouring money in this area and saving it to move... I am excited! (better be, gonna take 2 years to get out of here.)


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Where you headed?


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

If I had to do it all over again, I'd take up diffusing bombs. With all that can go wrong now with bees I think it would be less stressful.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Colino I can relate. Cg3 - thinking Northwest Arkansas. Nothing is graven in stone yet.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I thought you were looking for a change. I expected Alaska. Bookoo a lot of potential income. No shortage of water or oil.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Rainfall there looks ok, always loved the countryside there, huge difference from North Texas, but no work. So I have a lot of prep to do here before the move


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