# Wrapping hives in cold climates.........



## Skinny bee man (Dec 22, 2013)

Located in South Central Ontario.

Just wondering how many wrap all their hives in colder climates. I wrapped mine last year and they did well. (I only have 5 hives.)

Is it necessary if they have a good wind block and go into the winter healthy?

I doubt that commercial beekeepers wrap each hive.

Thanks.


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## centrarchid (Jun 13, 2014)

I would wrap in addition to providing windblock. Only concern would maintaining proper ventilation. I keep chickens very much outside under stars even when temps minus 10 F. They benefit not only from good energy reserves (honey = food in crop and fat on body) and mass (cluster mass = muscle mass); they also benefit from good feathering which equals insulatory value of the hive as it moderates temperature of air contacting external part of cluster = actual skin of bird. I wish one could monitor clusters like I can my birds when temperatures are really cold to see how they adapt to cold stress.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

The wrap serves the purpose of Solar gain.. On those marginal days that an unwrapped hive is unable to move or break cluster, the wrapped hive CAN because of the small bit of added warmth..
You could PAINT your hives a dark color, but in the summer the solar gain may be too much. So we paint htme lighter colors for summer, and wrap for winter.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I'd almost hate to say it...if you had enough hives, wrap half of the colonies and don't wrap the other half of them, then see which ones have a higher survival rate. C'mon, I think we already know the answer, and longtime local beeks could probably get the percentage winter kill for both test groups pretty close, so just insulate them with upper hive ventilation and wrap them. Leave sadistic experiments like that to those who have too many bees and no poor beekeepers to give them to.

One of our regulars from coastal Washington set up nicely next to garage or shed with a long overhanging eave, so the bees had a wind break, and protection from snow and ice.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Skinny bee man said:


> I doubt that commercial beekeepers wrap each hive.
> 
> Thanks.


Well, yeah, they do, in Manitoba and Ontario and other places where taking them south is not an option. Cruise around some of the Threads Posted by other Canadians and you will see photos of wrapped hives.

If you want to rank the importance of different thing which factor into successful wintering, I'm not sure if I would rank wrapping lowest, but low compared to healthy, strong, well provisioned, and well ventilated. Temps may not get as low here in northern NY as to where you live, but plenty of people have wrapped half a yd and not the other half and have seen no difference in overwintering. Plenty of hives survive here unwrapped. They may not brood up as early, but they survive.

So, it has more to do w/ what works for you all around when it comes to wrapping.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Skinny bee man said:


> I doubt that commercial beekeepers wrap each hive


I do, every hive and every nuc.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> if I would rank wrapping lowest, but low compared to healthy, strong, well provisioned, and well ventilated. Very well said.Plenty of hives survive here unwrapped. They may not brood up as early, but they survive. This also is so true. The hive may survive but spring population is minimal and it takes them all year to rebuild for next winter. Don't look for a big hoiney crop. Brooding is also delayed, so don't be thinking about making much in the way of NUCs and splits.


xx


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

http://www.bbhoneyfarms.com/store/c-58-beehive-winter-packing
I don't wrap mine till thanksgiving but all will be wrapped .


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

Are those boards covering the entrance nailed on or just resting against the hive. Very interesting.


GLOCK said:


> http://www.bbhoneyfarms.com/store/c-58-beehive-winter-packing
> I don't wrap mine till thanksgiving but all will be wrapped .


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Wrapping hives with tar paper - or painting them _black _- may be effective for blocking wind, but black tar paper or black paint is not going to result in any net solar heat gain in a hive over a 24 hour period. Yes, black objects capture solar heat better than white objects while the sun is shining, but black objects also lose heat (re-radiate) faster than white objects at night. There is no net heat gain for an object simply from being black over a 24 hour period.

It is a complicated subject, but here is a simple example ...


> Similarly, black asphalt in a parking lot will be hotter than adjacent gray sidewalk on a summer day, because black absorbs better than gray. The reverse is also true—black radiates better than gray. Thus, on a clear summer night, the asphalt will be colder than the gray sidewalk, because black radiates the energy more rapidly than gray.
> 
> _Further explanation of radiation differences by color at this link:_
> https://www.inkling.com/read/college-physics-openstax-college-1st/chapter-14/14-7-radiation


Black colored hives will have a larger temperature swing/change over a 24 hour period than white colored hives. In my opinion, a more _consistent _temperature is more helpful to a colony than flipping between enhanced highs and corresponding lower temperatures.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

woodedareas said:


> Are those boards covering the entrance nailed on or just resting against the hive. Very interesting.


They are screwed on it's to keep the wind off the bottom entrance plus there's a mouse guard and a entrance reducer behind that. Works for me.

As you can see they go in the hive from the sides.

I run black hives all year and they do well.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> In my opinion, a more _consistent _temperature is more helpful to a colony than flipping between enhanced highs and corresponding lower temperatures.


In TN, just how much of a flip in temperatures do you have? I doubt wrapping there would have much benefit.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't wrap hives. But winter nighttime temperatures where I am in TN range down to 10 degrees F (or possibly 5 degrees F) some winters, and the daytime highs on those colder days might be 25-30 degrees F.

Note that my earlier comment was not about _wrapping _ hives per se, but merely about the alleged benefits from _black _vs _white _hive surfaces. Some of the building wrap (house wrap) products are pretty much white colored, so it is certainly possible to use a light colored wrap if one wanted to do so. Also, some of those building wrap products are also much more resistant to _tearing _than asphalt paper.

My hives are situated at the margin where the terrain changes from relatively open pasture to a dense forest, and those trees act as a windbreak.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Dark hives have, as noted above, more heat gain during the day and more loss in the dark, which, I think can result in wider overall temps swings during cold clear weather. 

My goal in winter protection is to attenuate the temperature changes by _insulating_ to retain the cluster's warmth (through reduced radiational loss through the wooden walls) and at the same time avoid the sharp rises that dark-walled hives can have during the few hours of bright sun at mid-day.

I have read that natural bee cavities in the north have walls with an R-value of R 5-15. A single wall of a hive probably has an R-value of slightly less than 1. Extruded insulation foam (pink, purple, pale blue and green from various manufactueres) has an R-value of 5 per inch, so I have a base line of 2" of foam on at least three sides. A bit more added as a back wind protection panel that spans all the hives (my hives winter snugged up together with two 1" pieces of foam between them.)

The front area gets another wide panel spanning all the hive fronts just after the first of the year. It is the first panel to come off in the Spring, probably around the second or third week of March. I keep it handy, though, as we can have serious, long cold spells after that. At that point my bees were making a lot of brood that could be chilled by a cold snap, so I would reinstall it for a few days, as necessary.

Wrapping the hives in roofing paper provides no insulative properties, at best it is a wind break. Snow-covered hives would also stay at a steady temperature, but my hives sit on a 20" tall stand, and rarely would I have a snow drift that would cover them sufficiently as I winter in tall stacks.

Enj.


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## BeeEplorer (Nov 6, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Some of the building wrap (house wrap) products are pretty much white colored, so *it is certainly possible to use a light colored wrap if one wanted to do so*.


Very unprofessional advice.
because
"House wrap is intended to be installed over the sheathing and *behind the siding*, no matter what siding you are using: brick, vinyl, concrete or any other material used."
http://construction.about.com/od/Th...ouse-Wrap-Pros-Cons-And-Installation-Tips.htm

BeeExplorer


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Last time I looked most tree bark was tan to dark brown and after the leaves fall off exposed to sunlight and the resulting "large daily temperature swings".


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## woodedareas (Sep 10, 2010)

I wrap with construction bags from Home Depot. They are generally white with a great deal of printing on them. They are very tough and can hold construction debris. I keep them double folded and staple them to my hives. I also use insulation on the top, sugar bricks and ventilation. Will any of this work? it remains to be seen.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

BeeEplorer said:


> Very unprofessional advice.
> because
> "House wrap is intended to be installed over the sheathing and *behind the siding*, no matter what siding you are using: brick, vinyl, concrete or any other material used."
> http://construction.about.com/od/Th...ouse-Wrap-Pros-Cons-And-Installation-Tips.htm


Unprofessional advice? :scratch: :lpf:

Are you kidding me? What about tar paper (asphalt paper)? I bet you won't find any building professional recommending to leave tar paper exposed either! 

:ws:

Wait til you read one of the threads about Advantech (OSB product). There are beekeepers building hive lids out of Advantech and leaving them exposed to the elements without even any paint, and reporting very good results.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

OK, folks, I just discovered that _BeeExplorer _had '_dissed_' my building wrap suggestion above, but that was not my real reason for returning to this thread. I was reading the current 'Hive Temperature' thread, and it occurred to me that there is and easy way to decide for yourself whether black colored hives actually result in warmer bees in winter (over a 24hr day).

Everyone seems to agree that a black colored (paint, tarpaper, etc) hive is likely to warm up more in the sun than a white colored hive. But then what happens at night? There are a few voices out there that say that the 'extra' heat gained during the day by a 'black' hive is lost during the night by higher amounts of re-radiation from a black hive. But others seem not to believe that.

So ask yourself this ... If the black hive does _not _lose more heat at night than the white hive does, won't the black hive continually get hotter and hotter - every single day - than the white hive? If the black hive continually gains more heat, surely eventually it will _burst into flames_, no?


k:


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> OK, folks, I just discovered that _BeeExplorer _had '_dissed_' my building wrap suggestion above, but that was not my real reason for returning to this thread. I was reading the current 'Hive Temperature' thread, and it occurred to me that there is and easy way to decide for yourself whether black colored hives actually result in warmer bees in winter (over a 24hr day).
> 
> Everyone seems to agree that a black colored (paint, tarpaper, etc) hive is likely to warm up more in the sun than a white colored hive. But then what happens at night? There are a few voices out there that say that the 'extra' heat gained during the day by a 'black' hive is lost during the night by higher amounts of re-radiation from a black hive. But others seem not to believe that.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone is arguing that black hives lose no heat, are they? If even a white box warms than your statement would be the same... it would just burst into flames a little later than the black one.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I am 46 degrees north so sunshine is short and low angle. I am not too worried about them catching fire Rader. This year i actually used a double aluminized bubble wrap to hold the foam boards on. Some years past I lived in tar paper shacks and at the time I do not remember feeling warmed by it.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I run black nuc's and deeps in full sun and they work great for me.


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## Spark (Feb 24, 2011)

I would think if the heat gain during the day gave the bees a little extra boost to reach food stores it would better prepare them for the cold night. I have not wrapped before but after the last couple of winters here..against my bee clubs advice... I will be wrapping. I am no scientist but I believe the added short term heat can help becuase i have had losses before where the bees were just short of their stores.


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## bugmeister (Feb 26, 2013)

Sometimes we do stuff to _make us feel better_ and that in my case it is wrapping. After last winter especially- I am a believer!! I wrap around November 1 and if anyone has a good tip on easier wrapping I would appreciate it. I usually work solo and you get those long pieces of paper flying in the breeze and the bees get pissed when the staple gun starts agitating them. Is there an easier way? B


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

bugmeister said:


> Sometimes we do stuff to _make us feel better_ and that in my case it is wrapping. After last winter especially- I am a believer!! I wrap around November 1 and if anyone has a good tip on easier wrapping I would appreciate it. I usually work solo and you get those long pieces of paper flying in the breeze and the bees get pissed when the staple gun starts agitating them. Is there an easier way? B


Yah isn't that fun when it gets windy. Especially if you are single handed! The Bee Cosy and similar sleeves that slip down over are handy. A bit pricey initially but not too bad since they fold up and can be reused for quite a few years. With tarpaper strips cut the right length and a lathe taped or stapled to each end you can anchor one end then run the strip around the hive and anchor the second strip.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

All tucked in. A wind block is essential I believe.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Modify the microclimate. You can't change the weather, but you can change the extremes the bees have to deal with.

I have several colonies sitting on a porch at the southeastern corner of my house. The brick walls absorb heat during the day and moderate temperatures at night. It is the single best place I've ever had bees for overwintering. They don't require wrapping, the microclimate takes care of warming things up when the sun shines and keeping it a bit warmer even when cold temps hit.

Wrapping as practiced today is not the same as 100 years ago. At that time, double walled hives were prominently featured in beekeeping magazines. Put the double walled hive together and fill the gap with sawdust and you had a frigid brick surrounding the colony for winter. Even on a very warm day, not enough warmth got inside the colony to allow them to move around.

Studies showed that bees do NOT try to warm the hive. They only keep the cluster warm. From this, successful wintering strategies were devised. A cluster can "freeze out" when they stay too cold to move to fresh honey stores that may be just inches away. They don't freeze, they starve! Using a tar paper wrap or any similar black layer on the outside of the hive will moderate the temperature enough that the colony can move on days that would otherwise be too cold. So the purpose of wrapping is not so much to protect the colony or to keep heat in, it is to enable the colony to move by moderating the temperature for a few hours on a sunny day.

It follows that a large cluster is better able to keep the cluster warm and therefore better able to deal with the stress of wintering. This holds true up to a point, but eventually the cluster consumes so much honey that they can get trapped by a cold spell lasting several weeks which prevents them from moving to fresh stores.

The optimum size cluster depends on the bee species. I've had the best success with clusters that were roughly the size of a football. Since I am in northern Alabama, I don't have the severe winters that hit further north. I have successfully overwintered colonies of A.M.M. that were the size of a softball in October. By March, they were on 5 frames, and by mid April, they filled 2 brood chambers. Now if you remember these bees, you know that they swarmed 3 times in May, made 2 or 3 supers of honey anyway, and repeated the cycle in October.

Wrapping is really not very beneficial in my climate. It is very rare to have more than 3 weeks of temps so cold that a colony can't move. Just saying because Michael Palmer is working with a dramatically different climate and I agree that he benefits significantly from wrapping.


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## Dav (Jul 9, 2012)

bugmeister said:


> Sometimes we do stuff to _make us feel better_ and that in my case it is wrapping. After last winter especially- I am a believer!! I wrap around November 1 and if anyone has a good tip on easier wrapping I would appreciate it. I usually work solo and you get those long pieces of paper flying in the breeze and the bees get pissed when the staple gun starts agitating them. Is there an easier way? B


Having experienced the same "gustration" in the past, this year I planned ahead. In the garage I cut off 78 inch sheets on an old door. Where I had marked the door at 16.25, 20, 16.25, and 20 inch intervals, I pre-creased the paper. Did those sheets go on slick! Although I had help, I think I could have held head and tail loosely, slid the box kite over the hive, and then pulled the overlap tight single-handedly. Give it a try.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

This is going to drive some of you nuts I'm sure.....
*Warning! DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!*
*FIRST YEAR BEEK!!*

I put a teepee around mine.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

bugmeister said:


> Sometimes we do stuff to _make us feel better_ and that in my case it is wrapping. After last winter especially- I am a believer!! I wrap around November 1 and if anyone has a good tip on easier wrapping I would appreciate it. I usually work solo and you get those long pieces of paper flying in the breeze and the bees get pissed when the staple gun starts agitating them. Is there an easier way? B


I used thumb tacks and just pushed them in with my fingers. Don't think the bees even knew I was there. Used a big roll of 15 lb tar paper. 80 inch lengths are enough to go around a 10 frame set up. Took note of where the bees had made auxiliary entrances and pressed with my fingers to locate the holes and used scissors to clear the tar paper from those areas. Will see how the thumb tacks hold up. Hope they don't rust out before spring!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

A couple staples to hold the paper then plaster lath with small nails to secure the end and keep the wind from getting under the paper was what we used to do "back in the day". You can also just use staples but it gets to be a lot of staples in your boxes after a few years.


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## llgoddj (Apr 11, 2012)

What are those boards in front of our bottom entrance for??? Is that a wind block??? How do they get in? From the side?? Don't get it. Fill me in please, thanks. Also, the black wrap, is that bought or home made?? Is it just bubble wrap painted black?? Or is it flexible styrofoam???

thanks again,
larry


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

GLOCK said:


> They are screwed on *it's to keep the wind off the bottom entrance* plus there's a mouse guard and a entrance reducer behind that. Works for me.
> 
> As you can see *they go in the hive from the sides.*


:thumbsup:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I put a teepee around mine.

I think that's a better plan than most. It lets the moisture out the top and isn't up against the wood.


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## bugmeister (Feb 26, 2013)

THANKS FOR THE TIP AND WILL TRY ( TO REMEMBER) AND DO NEXT YEAR!B


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

What I wrap with works great.
http://www.bbhoneyfarms.com/store/c-58-beehive-winter-packing


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## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

Wrapped mine for the first time. I used roofing felt(the thicker kind) and wrapped it imperfectly so there are spots that bubble out a little. I think not being skin tight will allow the hive to breath a little more while also acting as a windbreak and still heating the hive some. Some were creeping around the entrance at 29 degrees the other day. We'll see how it goes!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I use the wrap that glock uses except the 23". I have a feeder shim on top with half a 25 pound bag of sugar poured on wet newspaper. Over that is a soundboard cover and a 2" Styrofoam cover over that. The wrap is folded over the top and sealed down with cheap duct tape. The regular migratory cover is placed over it and weighted down with special rocks I will sell if anyone wants. I have extras. Then a hole is bored thru the upper deep right below the handhold for a winter entrance/ vent. The bottomboard entrance is blocked shut by the wrap so I get no updrafts in my hurricane windy winter weather. If I have controlled the mites and the queens don't fail they winter very well.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

A couple of large commercial beekeepers(2000 & 5500 hives) make their own. I haven't tried but intend to. They take a 6 ft width of 6 mil poly and whatever length one needs for perimeter of 1, 2, or 4 hives. Place 24 inch batts of fiberglass insulation. Fold the poly together over the insulation so it is now 3 ft. Use a clothes iron and aluminum foil to seal the plastic. Probably takes a bit of experimenting. They also make a pillow in a similar fashion for the top of the hive wrap.

They have a jig on a wooden table to speed up the manufacturing.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Somewhere on line I watched a video of such being made and they were using something called codex which I could never locate for insulation. Amazing tunnel vision I have, fiberglass batts never occurred to me. I suppose the tin foil is to keep the iron from sticking to the poly. Thank very much for your input Mr. Golden. I think I found it.

www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/wrapmkg.htm;

Anyone interested in wrapping or wintering in general should avail themselves of the excellent search function on this site. I have never seen better or faster.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

This is what I'm trying for 7 hives this year.

==McBee7==


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## linn (Nov 19, 2010)

Last year I used Christmas trees as a wind breaks. I just drove to the brush dump and collected Christmas trees as people dumped them off. I always wrap the hives and use solid bottom boards. Christmas trees are rather heavy. Of course, after winter I returned the Christmas trees to the brush dump.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

If I were a small to sideline-sized operation living in snow country where 30+ % winter kill was the norm, I'd build a straw bale bee house and move them in on pallets in the winter, and have a pallet spinner on which to wrap them. Feed them their last winter patty, next insulate them, then black tar paper, then stretch film, and run a ventilation tube out the front. Probably a heater in the building, too. Dr. C.C. Miller did similar to this, though not palletized nor wrapped, using his basement quite successfully.

It would be a toss-up if I were a commercial pollinator, I might snow bird it with my bees near the almonds, if I had the land available.


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## caskut (Jun 6, 2013)

McBee7: How did this work for you last winter? Please update!


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

here are a couple of other pics of the same hives, winter of 2014/15

and here is a pic of the quilt box letting out the moisture as evidenced by the frost on the inside of the inner cover....

All of these hives had zero reserves going into winter and had to survive on sugar packs through winter that I gave them,,,2 survived---5 perished from starvation---The sugar packs I put on them (paper sandwich bags with sugar blocks in them) were hollow as they had hollowed them out from the botton and I thought they were full but there was nothing there...
So even though there were major losses it was because of starvation...Not from being to cold or moisture problems ....The quilt boxes and the foam insulation did their job....This year the expieriment contenues..

heres a pic of the sugar sacks,,,some were hollow  lesson learned..

==McBee7==


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The successful people in my area wrap hives.
Advantix duct wrap that has foil and bubble wrap. It get's painted black.
Lowes knows.

About black things. In physics there is a concept called an Ideal Black Body.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mod6.html
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/blackbody


Black bodies have perfect emissivity which means they absorb and radiate energy perfectly. A black painted bee hive is a long way from being an ideal black body but the concept is the same. What this has to do with wintering bee hives? You figure it out. Gave you the tools.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Black painted beehives lose more heat at night than white painted beehives. Heat radiation based on the object color is a _two-way street_. 

See post #10 earlier in this thread.

Solar gain based on black paint color is transient, and that gain is offset by increased heat loss at night. See post #10 for a reference link.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Black painted beehives lose more heat at night than white painted beehives. Heat radiation based on the object color is a _two-way street_.
> 
> See post #10 earlier in this thread.
> 
> Solar gain based on black paint color is transient, and that gain is offset by increased heat loss at night. See post #10 for a reference link.


Radar,

What is the effect of the black tar paper heating in the sun, transfering the heat to the air space between it and the hive (they are seldom a *tight* fit) and heating the wite box and wood underneath? The paper would lose it's heat rather quickly but would the warmed wood of the hive? I'm not debating, this is a serious question. The reason I ask it that if there is quite a bit of heat gained and it translated into the whole hive then it seems it would hold heat longer, for instance if you heated an empty bottle painted black and a bottle full of water painted black wouldn't the bottle with the water stay warmer longer due to the higher heat energy retained by the water in the said bottle vs. the air in the first bottle?:scratch:

thermal capacity of materials in our hives (basic) for 100g:

Air: 101
wood: 176
Water: 417.9

In addition one would have to account for air flow through the hive.....there is a lot going on here


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm not a physicist - or an _engineer_ so I can only speculate about your exact scenario. Clearly the tar paper offers a wind break compared to unwrapped hives. The tar paper may in addition also offer a small insulating value (R-value). However, "black" tar paper offers no solar heat gain (compared to a "white" tarpaper) when considering a 24 hour period.

You may choose to wrap for insulation or wind protection, but solar heat gain is an illusion.

Consider that a black roof mounted solar "water" heat collector has to deal with this issue also. One approach that designers of such systems use is to have the collector system drain the water from the collector back into a holding tank during the night period, otherwise the collector would be radiating heat from the water back out to the night sky.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Last winter, I overwintered my nucs in 3 frame boxes with the bottom box mike palmer style. I grouped them in one big line and insulated them as a group with small top entrances, except for the south facing part of the bottom box. This arrangement allowed the bottom box to heat up in the sun, but the heat would be trapped by the insulated top boxes. Have 0 data to show that it worked, but I suspect the wind block effect was most useful. I do know that the nucs with tough northern queens survived and built nicely this spring, but the Hawaiian queen and one of her daughters died. All my bees are from stock that has overwintered, so we see how it goes this year. 

This year my nucs are on pallets and in a more exposed location. I will be grouping them again, only in a square formation this time. They are set up so I have to move them minimally. I will at least insulate the top, and may insulate the sides again as well. I may have overcompensated last year. Again the bottom of the south exposed hives will be left open.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I'm not a physicist - or an _engineer_ .


I'm not either


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## Skinny bee man (Dec 22, 2013)

caskut said:


> McBee7: How did this work for you last winter? Please update!


Well my five hives wintered fine.

1. I put on metal reducers on the front to keep out the mice.
2. I insulated with 1.5" hard Styrofoam (the light purple stuff)
3. On a couple I put some Styrofoam on the top of the outer cover as well and placed a few rocks on top
4. I wrapped with tar paper
5. On March 1st I have photos and they were 3/4 covered in snow.
6. Upper entrance of course for moisture to escape and for them to get out on warmer days. (we had very few warm days last winter)

The main thing is they all have a great wind break. In the fall they were also packed with honey. Didn't feed with anything. Just a few pollen patties in the spring to get them going. Harvested the other day. Average 135 lbs. of liquid honey per hive. Great year. I also split in the spring and now have 8 going into the fall. All three splits did great and I really should have supered two of the three.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> but solar heat gain is an illusion.


Net gain, perhaps. But when it's 35 and sunny and my black wrapped hives are taking cleansing flights and when the top is popped the cluster is spread out with bees moving stores from overhead down to the cluster because it's significantly warmer in their boxes... I'll take that. I couldn't care less how cold it gets at night. I care that they can move around a little and get in touch with stores when the day is at it's warmest. Outside surfaces of the hives on sunny 35-40 degree days were in the 75* range.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

I take an approach very similar to skinny bee man in post #52 with the exception that I include a 4 inch high quilt box near the top. Note: the gallon paint cans on top of the hives are full of sand ad dead weights, and apiary is surrounded by a solar powered electric bear fence.
Steve


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

thehackleguy said:


> Radar,
> 
> What is the effect of the black tar paper heating in the sun, transfering the heat to the air space between it and the hive (they are seldom a *tight* fit) and heating the wite box and wood underneath? The paper would lose it's heat rather quickly but would the warmed wood of the hive? I'm not debating, this is a serious question. The reason I ask it that if there is quite a bit of heat gained and it translated into the whole hive then it seems it would hold heat longer, for instance if you heated an empty bottle painted black and a bottle full of water painted black wouldn't the bottle with the water stay warmer longer due to the higher heat energy retained by the water in the said bottle vs. the air in the first bottle?:scratch:
> 
> ...


I am an engineer. I dont think any heat would go from the wrap to the interior. What would happen is that you would get less heat loss out of the hive due to the heated up outer surface. Heat loss out of the hive is proportional to the temp difference between the inside and outside of the hive due to conduction. The higher the temp of the outside, the less heat transferred from the inside to the outside. For heat to transfer from outside to inside, the ouside temp would have to be hotter than the inside which i dont think is happening. Because it looses less heat it can be a little warmer inside (this effect wouldnt add to the temp diff as much as the wrap would reduce the temp diff). I suspect this is the main effect going on.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

blamb61,
My black wraps were in the 70*F + range, which is certainly warmer than the space that isn't occupied by the bees when it's 35* outside. Not saying it's a huge amount... but like I said. If it's a few degrees during peak of the day then maybe my bees can break cluster and reach stores they may not have otherwise.


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## SAS (Sep 4, 2015)

I am also a new beekeeper, and this will be my second winter. Last winter, all five of my hives (double 10-frame deeps) made it through safe and sound. I did't wrap my hives, but I thought about it. Especially, when the sub zero temps hit in mid December, and lasted over a week. When it finally warmed up (if you call day time highs in the 20's and low 30's warm), I noticed TONS of dead bees out side the hives on the ground. I thought I lost them all, but they all survived some how. 
I don't want to go through that again. So I plan on wrapping my hives this winter.
I would like to add to the question "Wrapping hives in cold climates......" Has anyone tried using the "TekFoil Reflective" bubble insulation on there hives?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Wouldn't the most controlling temperature, in relation to the bees ability to move about, be controlled by the temperature of the honey stores? I think there is a large number of BTUs in the thermal mass there in comparison to the radiated heat from the few hours of afternoon sun.

We are only dealing with hunches here and trying to find analogies to support them. I think there are charts where the actual hive part temperatures have been measured as well as core temperature of the cluster and outside ambient temperatures.

I think Rader is correct that radiation accounts for a greater net loss of heat in 24 hourse than what might be picked up from incoming solar. The question is, is the potential transient warming from solar really an enabling factor to bees mobility or do they depend on average outside temperatures. Experiments were done in temperature controlled boxes but I dont recall whether solar contribution effect was completely examined.

Here at 46 deg. North Lat. and 9-10,000 heating degree days I dont pack the bees bags with sun tan lotion! I am sure that as you locate further south you can depend on solar gain to help the bees move around but the effect seems pretty weak here.

What is the science! and what is old beekeepers stories?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The _Resource _section of Beesource has a number of papers from the USDA on various aspects of beekeeping. Here is a link to "The Thermology of Wintering Honey Bee Colonies" that has results of various experiments regarding wintering temperatures of beehives.

This is not the first thread that I have posted that USDA link in. One of the previous threads related to this issue is here ... http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304642-Bees-Only-Heat-the-Cluster-Not-the-Hive


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> solar heat gain is an illusion.


I think you should consider the heating and cooling separate. If you consider the 24 hour affect, then perhaps, but the point made earlier, which seems valid to me, was that the temp gain during the daylight may be enough to get the bees moving and hence more opportunity to relocate to stores. I don't know, but it sounds feasible. I guess that temp rise might be detrimental too if it caused flight. Anyway, a complete analysis of this, noting the valid points that points that thehackleguy made about gaps and such, would require a fair amount of effort to analyze. Approximations using black/white bodies would still require a fair amount of additional approximations.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Studies show temperature inside the hive body not occupied by the bees falls just as low as the outside temp. So if its 30 below zero outside the hive its 30 below zero inside as well. I think wrapping with foam insulation will be a waist of time. My friend wrapped 3 hives with 2 inch foam insulation and he lost two over winter. I think the key is moisture ventilation, stores and wind break. And I agree with JW. Tar paper wrap so the bees can detect temperature change for cleansing flights and move the cluster.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

lowhog said:


> Studies show temperature inside the hive body not occupied by the bees falls just as low as the outside temp. So if its 30 below zero outside the hive its 30 below zero inside as well. I think wrapping with foam insulation will be a waist of time. My friend wrapped 3 hives with 2 inch foam insulation and he lost two over winter. I think the key is moisture ventilation, stores and wind break. And I agree with JW. Tar paper wrap so the bees can detect temperature change for cleansing flights and move the cluster.



Yes, it will drop to the same level (it has to). Think of insulation as the resistance to the exchange of heat (slows but doesn't eliminate the transfer of heat). So when the box is vacant, there's no heat generated and therefore it will converge to the outside ambient temp. If I lived in MN I would very likely use foam board to insulate my hives, provide proper moisture management, and wind breaks.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

I should have said area inside the hive not occupied by the bees. meaning away from the cluster. If I use any insulation it will be below the bottom board and above the quilt box. Living in a old farm house with a partial basement I noticed the floors over a crawl space are much colder.


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> blamb61,
> My black wraps were in the 70*F + range, which is certainly warmer than the space that isn't occupied by the bees when it's 35* outside. Not saying it's a huge amount... but like I said. If it's a few degrees during peak of the day then maybe my bees can break cluster and reach stores they may not have otherwise.


I concur it would help, im just not sure if its pumping heat in or keeping it from comming out. If your temps are correct it could be putting it in. Also if its just enough so they can move to get food, I would think that is way more important than if it would get a little colder at night which im not sure it would. You would loose more at night due to radiation but also loose less due to less conduction. Not sure which factor would be greatest but doesnt matter if it helps them get to the food.


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

lowhog said:


> Studies show temperature inside the hive body not occupied by the bees falls just as low as the outside temp. So if its 30 below zero outside the hive its 30 below zero inside as well. I think wrapping with foam insulation will be a waist of time. My friend wrapped 3 hives with 2 inch foam insulation and he lost two over winter. I think the key is moisture ventilation, stores and wind break. And I agree with JW. Tar paper wrap so the bees can detect temperature change for cleansing flights and move the cluster.


It would be impossible for inside temp to be the same as outside. Warm air would convect from the bees body and heat up anything it touched. There would also be a small amount of radiation from the bees bodies to all parts of the hive within line of sight of the bees. Might not be a big temp rise but they wouldnt be the same.


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## blamb61 (Apr 24, 2014)

It would be a fun little experiment to instrument with some thermocouples a wrapped and unwrapped hive and take some measurements. In college we did these kind of experiments with a light bulb in a styrafoam box and then measured temps at various depths into the styrafoam and then calculated the conduction coeficient and compared to the known quantity. Fun stuff.

There are three types of heat transfer: conduction, convection (free and forced), and radiation. There are two heat sources: the sun and the bees for this subject. There is heat stored in any mass involved. Heat always goes from hotter to colder temps.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/solar_heating.htm

Also see: 









Extracted from: http://ia700404.us.archive.org/0/items/cu31924052051228/cu31924052051228.pdf


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/solar_heating.htm
> 
> Also see:
> 
> ...


Very good articles Bernhard. It shows how apparent contradictions are resolved when all things are considered rather than having a few points cherry picked to support a preconception.

Here is a clip about the philosophy behind this.

Although their explanations
as to the need of winter protection for bees, and how to secure
this should be satisfactory to all, there still remain a large number of
people who either through mistaken observations of their own, prejudice,
or on account of giving value to mistaken observations of others,
will persist in refusing to accept even the clearest explanation if it
does not happen to coincide with their preconceived opinions. This
latter class of people are prone to maintain that these explanations
may perhaps be facts, but they apply to some other part of the country
than the one in which they reside. In order to convince them that
these facts apply to their locality as well as to all other localities, and
that these problems apply in every respect to them as much as to other
beekeepers, it is often necessary to conduct additional experiments to
prove further something which has been clearly explained before.


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## dgrc (May 4, 2015)

AstroBee said:


> ...If I lived in MN I would very likely use foam board to insulate my hives, provide proper moisture management, and wind breaks.


U of M beekeeping courses recommend tarpaper wrap, 1" diameter hole in the top box (and wrap), moisture board above inner cover, outer cover askew for ventilation.

I'm a 1st year beekeeper so I'll let everyone know next spring how that worked for me.


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## dgrc (May 4, 2015)

blamb61 said:


> It would be a fun little experiment to instrument with some thermocouples a wrapped and unwrapped hive and take some measurements...
> 
> There are three types of heat transfer: conduction, convection (free and forced), and radiation. There are two heat sources: the sun and the bees for this subject. There is heat stored in any mass involved. Heat always goes from hotter to colder temps.


Correctomundo! Heat transfer and resulting temperatures (heat ain't temperature, try getting your head around that concept) is a hard problem because there are so many variables to account for. The experimental approach is almost always better than the theoretical.

I have on order a couple small temperature and humidity sensors that should tuck nicely under the top bar of a frame. If I can get a device built and working before I close up the hives I'll report the data.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

lowhog said:


> Studies show temperature inside the hive body not occupied by the bees falls just as low as the outside temp. So if its 30 below zero outside the hive its 30 below zero inside as well. I think wrapping with foam insulation will be a waist of time. My friend wrapped 3 hives with 2 inch foam insulation and he lost two over winter. I think the key is moisture ventilation, stores and wind break. And I agree with JW. Tar paper wrap so the bees can detect temperature change for cleansing flights and move the cluster.



What did your friend have for ventilation in the form of top and bottom entrances and were they using a quilt box? In a cold climate, you are going to get all kinds of condensation on the side walls and moisture problems if you don't insulate.

In order to have inside temp the same temp as outside ambient do not wrap and do not install perimeter insulation, leave screen bottoms open, large bottom entrances and top entrances, etc.

I'm always that temp above my inner cover about half way to the side wall is 20-30F above ambient. I insulate and wrap, have insulated bottom boards and outer covers, and run small/minimal bottom entrance openings.

Please read the studies.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Blam, I believe a cluster of bees in the top box can't generate enough to heat the bottom box. Overwintering of honey bee colonies article here on beesource says Quote- The temperature inside the hive in the area not occupied by bees falls just as low as the outside temperature, whether the colony is packed or wrapped. I believe this is true. If the cluster is in the top box and its -30 outside you can bet the inside surface of the bottom board will be -30.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Mgolden, He used moisture boards which didn't do much for moisture. I made him some quilt boxes. Myself I'm insulating the bottom board, top cover over the quilt box, wrapping with tar paper, giving them a top entrance and calling it good. Like I said before with tar paper wrap which is pretty much just a wind break the bees can detect temp change for cleansing flights.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Just insulate the top box then....! I insulate both because my winter configuration has them spending the early part of the winter in the bottom. Temperature stratification will allow the lower layers of air to drop out of circulation. That does not stop radiated or conducted heat loss to the lower regions. I think that statement from the article should have been qualified instead of stating "falls just as low as outside temperatures". Nearly as low I would buy.

Bees have to pay for the heat they produce in the cluster and since they are not perfect insulators there is always heat loss. Heat loss, whether from conduction, convection or radiation, is always proportional to temperature differential; if you wish to look it up you will find it is not merely a matter of opinion. Insulation pays good dividends here in the north where we have nearly 7 months shut in.

Admittedly wrapping costs money and is a pain in the butt. I am just getting my gear together for another wrap up and am trying to standardize components and make everything reusable and easy to store. Moisture control is part and parcel and components should provide insulation as well so that one function aids the other not conflict or cancel. I would challenge anyone in this climate to match my winter survival numbers if they did not insulate and ventilate.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

*Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

Quote-The temperature inside the hive in the area not occupied by bees falls just as low as the outside temperature, whether the colony is packed or wrapped. The only difference is the rate of temperature change in the heavily packed hive is slower than in lightly wrapped or unprotected hive. If warming periods that allow a brief cleansing flight in winter do occur, the heavily insulated colony may not be aware of the change and would fail to take advantage of a flight. For these reasons ,heavy packing or insulation is not recommended. Most important considerations are the strength and condition of the bee colony, the amount and position of the honey stores ,and adequate protection from the wind.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

Totally untrue and it is a disservice to beekeepers in cold climates to suggest only wrap. Only wrapping is a near sure way to kill a hive. All commercial beekeepers in cold climates that winter outdoors, use an insulated black wrap. 

There is a huge frost buildup on inside of sidewalls due to cold temp that melts when black wrap warms the sidewall. This end up in dead bees in bottom of hive and high humidity is a recipe for problems.

Yes interior temps are near exterior temps if there is huge ventilation going. However, if you choke bottom down to just enough to remove moisture, temps rise inside the hive. See it in my hive where temp above inner cover is 20-30F above exterior. 

Bottom temp is not important as bees spend little time at exterior of bottom. However, my bottom temp is higher than ambient because of 2 inch Styrofoam below and minimal ventilation. 

Bees winter more successfully with wraps and insulation and minimal ventilation.


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## Beeathlon (Jul 28, 2015)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

Reading all this makes me happy that I have polystyrene boxes.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

You are going to get condensation no matter what. The trick is to keep it on one wall. That's why I put my vent holes in the quilt box on the same side as the entrance. Its o.k. for buildup on the wall. Where you don't want it is overhead dripping on the bees.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

It was kicked around a length in another thread that there is indeed going to be approaching 5 gallons of water produced from metabolizing a winters worth of stores for a northern climate. I agree that you definitely dont want it dripping on the cluster. 

What I disagree with is that it should condense on the walls. It will not condense until it is cooled to the dewpoint. If the rising warm moist air emanating from the cluster leaves the hive by going up through the warm porous shavings quilt it will not condense until somewhere up into the quilt packing where the dewpoint temperature is reached. From here it will wick toward the upper surface of the quilt that is swept by the outside air. Some hoar frost accumulates at times but it dissipates into the air without dripping. I think so called moisture absorbing boards are pretty useless; they do not allow enough air flow to *carry off* the moisture. We do not want to store water, we want to dissipate it to the outside air. The warm moist air is lighter than the cold dry outside air; up and out!

Condensation on hive walls without insulation will freeze and warm spells will melt it. I have seen an inch of solid ice in the bottom of hives. (not mine)


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

Frank,I agree with you on the moisture boards. I looked at a few in the spring at my friends and the condensation build up was on the inner bottom. The moisture dripped back down on the bees and killed them. I will consider adding insulation to the northwest side. The south east side which gets the most sun will be tar paper only.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*



lowhog said:


> I will consider adding insulation to the northwest side. The south east side which gets the most sun will be tar paper only.


Insulation on three sides and black wrap on front side did not work very well. Interior warmed too quickly on a sunny day and fooled bees into flying when ambient was too cold. Insulation on the front side moderates how quickly interior warms on a sunny day. They don't make it back to the hive. My sides and back are 2 inch of Styrofoam and front side is 3/4.

Most commercials in our area use a 1 inch hole in top super as the top entrance and exit port for moist air. I'm pretty sure that quilt boxes with side vents and top ventilation further reduce the moisture. However extra pieces and work does not warrant it for commercials. Most use the B Cozy or an insulated wrap they make themselves. What they are doing works for them.


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## AG Fresh (Jun 10, 2015)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

I bought some Baggie feeders (about 3") for my quilt boxes. I just drilled 1" holes on the sides but I did it in the middle of the frames. Then I heard your supposed to drill the vent holes at the top of the frames. Does it matter and why?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

lowhog, some of the things tried for moisture control seem to be based on catching and storing it. They really seem frivolous if a person considers the volume involved and they fail accordingly. Some perceive the exposed edges of the "moisture board" as being the evaporating surface which is very small compared to the total surface area of 14 X 18" layer of planer shavings. I think we can agree quite easily on the physics of that. A person could dig deeper into considering the latent heat in the vapor but not here I think!

In regard to the pros and cons of grabbing the solar gain by not insulating or by varying color, texture etc., of the south face covering. I pursued that for a few winters with just about the same suppositions as you. I came to the conclusion that there was net heat loss that way and more quick temperature swings. The bees used more food overall because of it. I read about disturbances such as giving the hive a hard knock would show the activity level of the bees and the temperature would spike up. Wasted energy. They have the ability to whip up their heat producing bees and raise the cluster temperature and immediate surroundings enough to enable them to ooze onto more food if it is available. Break camp and move so to speak. They can do it at will but they must have honey to burn in the process. 

There were some temperature excursions up to 105 deg F. in some of those links that I will guess might be related to a move. My understanding was that moving was a more deliberate action than what might be instigated or facilitated by the rather short solar related events. 

So in changing my basic premise the value of different inputs seemed to change and it seemed easier fit the pieces together based on the hard laws of physics. I started another thread on cleansing flights and solar gain; perhaps it could include examination of how it actually effects decisions of moving to new food. I expect that the net potential value of solar gain would be greatly different in the far north than in the central states. 

Certainly some of the ideas and implementations have been a way too time consuming for a commercial operator but if you can boil them down into standard procedures the ideas can be implemented more efficiently. That is what I am in the process of these days.


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## Beerz (Feb 11, 2013)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

The idea that a black hive radiates away the heat as easily as it absorbs it was peculiar to me and frequently quoted here. I couldn't articulate a response nearly as well as the poster I found below. 


"There are two main ways that a house (or indeed any other object) exchanges heat with its surroundings: convection and radiation. As a general rule, at everyday temperatures convection is faster than radiation so it's the dominant mode of heat transfer.

With convection it doesn't matter what colour you paint your house. Convection heating and cooling is mostly by the wind blowing against the house walls and exchanging heat with the walls by conduction. In particular at night when it's cold the house will lose heat at the same rate whether it's painted white, black or yellow with green spots.

But the radiation from sunlight has a temperature of about 5,700°C so it is very good at transporting heat, as indeed you can tell just by standing in sunlight for a few minutes. Painting your house white (or better still silver) will reduce the absorptivity because it reflects away a large proportion of the sunlight, so it will reduce the rate of heating by the sunlight while not affecting convection.

So painting your house white will reduce the amount it heats up during the day but will not affect the amount it cools down at night. The end result is that it will keep the house cooler.

In winter the sunlight is often very weak or it's cloudy, in which case convection dominates and the colour of the paint has little effect on the internal temperature. It's true that on the rare sunny days in winter the white paint will reduce how fast the house heats up, but in hot climates this is a price worth paying for keeping the house cool in the summer. I suppose ideally you'd repainting the house twice a year so it was white during the summer and black during the winter."

shareciteimprove this answer

answered Jan 24 '14 at 10:16
John Rennie


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

>> So painting your house white will reduce the amount it heats up during the day [HIGHLIGHT] but will not affect the amount it cools down at night. [/HIGHLIGHT]

Well, the highlighted part of that statement is just not true.

A 'black' house will radiate more energy at night than a 'white' house. Here is an explanation of how this works from the University of Cambridge ...
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/questions/question/3136/


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## MartinW (Feb 28, 2015)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

This is a good summary from the Canadian Association of Professional Apiculturists.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*



MartinW said:


> This is a good summary from the Canadian Association of Professional Apiculturists.


Martin, Thanks for the PDF . Looks like the survival rate is higher in a three deep with tar paper or solar wrap then a insulated wrap from what I can see. They recommend solar wrap (tar paper) for Minnesota.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*



lowhog said:


> Martin, Thanks for the PDF . Looks like the survival rate is higher in a three deep with tar paper or solar wrap then a insulated wrap from what I can see. They recommend solar wrap (tar paper) for Minnesota.


Didn't you read the wrap had a R-12 insulation in it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*



mgolden said:


> Didn't you read the wrap had a R-12 insulation in it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 I see r12 under black plastic but I didn't see where it says use it under tar paper.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

I'm glad it doesnt get cold enough here to worry about all of this!!


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*



lowhog said:


> I see r12 under black plastic but I didn't see where it says use it under tar paper.


This is a special comment and says a lot!

Insulation and wraps and upper ventilation are standard practice in colder climates.


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## Matt F (Oct 7, 2014)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*



Rader Sidetrack said:


> >> So painting your house white will reduce the amount it heats up during the day [HIGHLIGHT] but will not affect the amount it cools down at night. [/HIGHLIGHT]
> 
> Well, the highlighted part of that statement is just not true.
> 
> ...



It's true if you accept the initial assumption "at everyday temperatures convection is faster than radiation so it's the dominant mode of heat transfer"

At best radiation is a second order effect at these temperatures when compared to convection, even with no wind and any air disturbance greatly magnifies the convective effect. Though, a tar paper wrapped hive provides a convective boundary as well, by creating a layer of still air in between the paper and the hive.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*



Matt F said:


> At best radiation is a second order effect at these temperatures when compared to convection ...


The issue is _not _what is the dominant effect. An assertion was made that the color of an object has no effect on energy radiated from that object at night. That is simply not true. 

Whether convection is dominant or not doesn't change the fact that a 'black' object radiates more energy at night compared to a 'white' object.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

*Re: Packing, wrapping,or cellar wintering*

I think the color and convection thing is a real red herring. Bees handle cold. But the solar gain allows them to loosen cluster and make neccessary repositioning of stores. I don't want them warming ul enough to fly out into chilling temps. I like wintering with an insulated wrap and do it very successfully if I have controlled mites.


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