# When to Open the Sides of the Broodnest



## laketrout

Matt very well done and easy to understand steps. Will this prevent swarming on its own without any other manipulation .


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## jmgi

I don't understand putting the new frames against the outside walls of the hive at that time of year, doesn't seem like it would help that much in removing the "honey dome" that you referred to. I think that if the weather is as warm as you say it needs to be to do this (at least 60 degrees every day), alternating one or two new frames into the center of the broodnest is not risky imo, and would do more to break the honey dome, give bees comb to draw, and give the queen more space to lay. I think a strong colony at that time of year can handle opening the broodnest like I suggested better than you think. A weak colony would have no need for you to open the center or sides of the broodnest, so we have to be talking about a strong colony here, with plenty of bees to keep the broodnest warm.


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## sqkcrk

*""Open the Sides of the Broodnest" - Steps:*

1. Several weeks before swarm season, move each outside frame up into a new box and alternate them with new frames, directly above the Broodnest." 

Which frames are the outside frames? The frames beside the frames of brood? All of them? Such as, 4 frames of brood and 6 frames w/out brood? Move them up and replace them w/ frames of foundation?

Or are you saying the two outermost frames of brood? To move them and replace them w/ frames of foundation?


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## MattDavey

laketrout said:


> Will this prevent swarming on its own without any other manipulation .


It has for me and I would think so in most cases.

But it also depends on the strength of your flow. If the bees run out of room to store nectar and the queen has no where to lay eggs, swarm preparations may likely start. But if you haven't got that extra drawn comb, then there's not much else you can do. It will at least delay the process and may be enough of a delay to get to the main flow.


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## jmgi

Maybe I misunderstood which frames you are talking about, please clarify.


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## MattDavey

jmgi said:


> I don't understand putting the new frames against the outside walls of the hive at that time of year, doesn't seem like it would help that much in removing the "honey dome" that you referred to. I think that if the weather is as warm as you say it needs to be to do this (at least 60 degrees every day), alternating one or two new frames into the center of the broodnest is not risky imo, and would do more to break the honey dome, give bees comb to draw, and give the queen more space to lay. I think a strong colony at that time of year can handle opening the broodnest like I suggested better than you think. A weak colony would have no need for you to open the center or sides of the broodnest, so we have to be talking about a strong colony here, with plenty of bees to keep the broodnest warm.


The new frames go beside brood frames, not outside walls. Encouraging the broodnest to be expanded outwards. Also, the two outside frames go above the broodnest and encourage the nest to be expanded upwards.

I said when temperatures start getting to 15°C/60°F, not talking about when those temperatures are every day.

It may be a climate thing, but we can have temperatures drop back down for several days at a time. So inserting frames inside the broodnest at this time can cause issues, such as chilled brood and/or Chalkbrood.

So the thought is: why risk chilling brood when putting a new frame on the edge of the broodnest works just as well.


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## jmgi

Ok Matt, thanks for the clarification.


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## MattDavey

sqkcrk said:


> Which frames are the outside frames? The frames beside the frames of brood? All of them? Such as, 4 frames of brood and 6 frames w/out brood? Move them up and replace them w/ frames of foundation?
> 
> Or are you saying the two outermost frames of brood? To move them and replace them w/ frames of foundation?


The two outermost frames (one from each side of the box) are moved up.

Then two new frames are inserted beside the outside of the broodnest. This is not the outside of the box. 

The idea is not to disturb the brood frames at all. Just put a new on each side of the broodnest.


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## jmgi

Matt, how would you do it differently if you had drawn comb to work with?


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## VitaminBee

Jmgi, wouldn't that be checkerboarding? And I'm trying to understand why one might choose opening the sides versus checkerboarding?


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## crabbydad

i dont think you want to checkerboard that early in the season. you want to keep all the brood together for warmth. that early in the season there may not be enough bees to cover it if you spread it out


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## jmgi

Checkerboarding is done above the broodnest with boxes of frames containing empty comb and frames of honey, and alternating them, there is no moving anything around in the broodnest itself. Understand, I have never done actual checkerboarding myself as layed out by Walt Wright, but I believe this is the basic description of checkerboarding. What I do is open the broodnest with frames of empty comb, which is a different thing.


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## VitaminBee

Yes, that is correct. Checkerboarding is NOT touching the brood nest. That's one thing I'm sure of about it. 

When you (jmgi) asked about using drawn comb, I assumed you were talking about moving the drawn comb up with honey, which would be checkerboarding. So... Re-reading this... You move the drawn frames from the SIDE of the brood nest UP with mostly new foundation (strips, not foundation) and just some amount of honey if available. I think I've got it!

I would still like to know the advantages, or reasoning I guess, for opening the side of the broodnest versus checkerboarding.


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## MattDavey

VitaminBee said:


> ... I would still like to know the advantages, or reasoning I guess, for opening the side of the broodnest versus checkerboarding.


Opening the Sides of the Broodnest is done when a beekeeper does not have spare drawn comb.

If you do have a few spare drawn combs, then you can alternate them with new frames in the new box above the Broodnest. It's technically not Walt's Checkerboarding because of the undrawn frames, but you could call it Checkerboarding. 

The more empty drawn comb above the Broodnest the better.


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## VitaminBee

MattDavey said:


> Opening the Sides of the Broodnest is done when a beekeeper does not have spare drawn comb.


Ohhhhhhhhh! (Picture light bulb going on!) Ok. Now I understand! Two different techniques to accomplish basically the same thing, your choice being resources. Cool. Thank you for sticking with me.


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## MattDavey

Just a clarification.

*1. Temperatures having reached 15°C/60°F recently and a good weather forecast for the next week, with a few warm days of 13°C/55°F or over forecast*.

When you add a new box and move frames around, you change the dynamics of heating the hive. So I think you should give them a few days of warm weather where they are able to break cluster and move resources around if they need to.

For example, if the first couple of outside frames that are moved up have nectar or honey in them, those frames may be robbed out. (This may also stimulate wax making and brood rearing.)


I should also add another point:

*5. Start to Open the Sides at least 4 weeks before your typical swarm season.*


This should probably overrides all the other points (even the temperature considerations), because once the bees have started Swarm preparations, they may not take any notice of new frames.

*If your typical Swarm season starts Mid to Late March then you should be Opening the Sides now*.

If they don't have much in the way of feed, please make sure you feed them. (But not too much, just enough to keep them going.)


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## MattDavey

It would be great to see more people give this a go..

Here's an update to the steps for better results.


*"Open the Sides of the Broodnest" - Steps:*

*1.* Several weeks before swarm season, move each outermost frame from a brood box up into the middle of a new (undrawn) box, placed directly above the Broodnest.

*2.* Insert a new frame on each outside edge of the Broodnest in the brood box. (So that a Brood frame is only on one side of each new frame.)

*3.* Check them in 2-3 weeks and repeat the steps if comb in the (two) new frames in the brood box has been mostly drawn, but instead alternate the drawn frames that are moved up, with the undrawn frames.

*4.* Check again in 2-3 weeks. The new box should now be mostly drawn. Repeat the steps again with another new box on top.

*Note:*

For the bees to move into a box, I have found it best to have at least 3 drawn combs together, in the middle of the new box. So if you have a spare drawn comb, more the better.

This is for deep frames. If you use mediums the times will be less.


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## BeeAttitudes

I'm a newb so please forgive me asking this clarification question. But when you state this:

1. Several weeks before swarm season, move each outermost frame from a brood box up into the middle of a new (undrawn) box, placed directly above the Broodnest.

Do the frames being moved up contain brood or not? I can't decide if you are referring to the "outermost frame containing brood" or the "outermost frame boardering the brood nest without brood".

Thanks!


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## Arlindi

BeeAttitudes said:


> I'm a newb so please forgive me asking this clarification question. But when you state this:
> 
> 1. Several weeks before swarm season, move each outermost frame from a brood box up into the middle of a new (undrawn) box, placed directly above the Broodnest.
> 
> Do the frames being moved up contain brood or not? I can't decide if you are referring to the "outermost frame containing brood" or the "outermost frame boardering the brood nest without brood".
> 
> Thanks!


If I understand him correctly, you move the two drawn frames from the very outside of the box up to the top box and you place an undrawn comb inbetween the two. You then rearrange the bottom box so that you have two undrawn frames against the brood nest. 

For example,
(E = empty frame, D = drawn frame, B = brood frame)

EEEDEDEEEE
DDEBBBBEDD


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## ChuckReburn

How much does variable weather factor in?

I'm seeing orientation flights on about half the hives, girls are bringing in a pretty good bit of pollen. April 1 is definately swarm season for us though March 15 isn't unusual and my local queen breeder is raising Qs by then.

Temps in F
Feb 5 Low tonight 28
Followed by 10 days above 60 and headed towwards 77.
Next 10 days on and off below 60 (if you believe the long range forecast)
And I'm guessing we get a hard 3 or 4 day freezing ice storm thrown at us early March


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## MattDavey

BeeAttitudes is correct, the outermost frames of the brood BOX. Frames 1 and 10 in a 10 frame box.

As stated, it's better that the first drawn frames in a new box are together.


So the first time do this:

EEEEDDEEEE
DDEBBBBEDD

(E = empty new frame, D = drawn frame with some stores, B = brood frame)


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## jcolon

Like the idea. But what id the temps go back down, lets say 20f for a night or two?


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## MattDavey

Most of the comb gets drawn in the first week. 

So I would be looking at the low temps forecasted for the next week to be above freezing.

Because the frames that are moved up are directly above the brood nest, they still have direct access to those frames. Ideally those frames should have a decent amount of capped honey on them. As long as they have direct access to honey they can cope with a few freezing nights.


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## WBVC

Now I am confused.

If you have drawn comb that is empty next to the comb with brood in it how does putting a different frame in that place help with anything? Do you replace an empty drawn frame with an undrawn frame?

If the frame on the outside of the brood is gilled with honey, nectar and pollen you then put it above the brood nest and replace with what...drawn or undrawn frames.

so as per the schematic is "E" drawn empty or an undrawn frame? I understand it to be undrawn and best to have foundationless with a starter strip or peek a boo foundation such as what Lauri tried.
The purpose being to keep the bees building rather than making swarm preps.

Does undrawn plastic foundation not work at all?




MattDavey said:


> The new frames go beside brood frames, not outside walls. Encouraging the broodnest to be expanded outwards. Also, the two outside frames go above the broodnest and encourage the nest to be expanded upwards.
> 
> I said when temperatures start getting to 15°C/60°F, not talking about when those temperatures are every day.
> 
> It may be a climate thing, but we can have temperatures drop back down for several days at a time. So inserting frames inside the broodnest at this time can cause issues, such as chilled brood and/or Chalkbrood.
> 
> So the thought is: why risk chilling brood when putting a new frame on the edge of the broodnest works just as well.


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## enjambres

First of all I realize that in the throes of urgent bee work last Spring I did not return and thank Matt for his explanation of this technique. Since I was coming out of my first winter I had virtually no empty, but drawn, comb to work with. So I decided to follow Matt's instructions - and it worked. Thank you, Matt!

I had three hives and although I did eventually split my largest one when I started to think they looked swarmy, my two others never really got swarm-minded. And they grew into enormous colonies over the summer as I just steadily kept doing this right through and into our main early summer flow. One colony started with only about eight frames of drawn (or partially drawn comb) and finished up in four 10-frame deeps. Thatsa a lotta wax! (This huge colonie is probaby already perusing travel brochures so I expect I'll have to keep on my toes to keep them from swarming this year.)

What I did was remove the outermost frame (or frames) from the brood box and insert a foundationless frame with a starter strip on one (or both sides) of the brood-frame cluster. I did this starting the third week of April and carried on until mid-June. And unlike Matt's instructions I found that I needed to do this (or at least check on the progress) every 5-10 days. So it was an enormous amount of work and intrusive to the bees. But it worked to prevent swarming. Aside from queen cups, which greatly alarmed me at first, I saw no serious swarm preps in two of the three.

Now, my situation is a little atypical, so your mileage may vary. Here's what was different from normal practice:

1) My hives are insulated with foam panels in the winter, which I kept on the stacks until Memorial Day, so I really had little risk of danger from sharp cold snaps (with temps well below freezing) in April and May which are very common here in northern NY. For reference, no one around here plants out peppers and tomatos before the end of May, and beans don't go in until June 5th. And last Spring winter lingered on into April, then it gave up and while it was cool, it didn't go backwards as it sometimes does.

2) During the first couple of manipulations I did not remove outside frames, I just removed part of the internal insulation panels that I winter with - which functionally expanded the space that had been reduced all winter and allowed me to add the empty undrawn frames beside the brood nest. But I did not have frames to move up, in the usual way. I had a some empty undrawn frames (the rattiest of all left from the cut-out) which I placed above the brood nest since that was all I had. The frames were so unloved that in some cases the bees ignored them completely so I inadvertently created a gap in the center of the brood nest in the second from bottom box. I eventually worked these outwards and out of service.

3) The bees drew large amounts of drone comb/honey cells before they settled down to wall-to-wall worker brood cells. I plan to use Lauri's partial sheet/centered approach this year to see if that makes a difference.

4) Eventually (first week of June with Black Locust about to pop) they were drawing so fast I could hardly keep up with them so I just plunked down full boxes of empty, undrawn, foundation, with scarecly one or two frames having even a hint of drawn wax on them. The bees just went to work on box after box, right up to early July. This was the same in both the hive stack that was all deeps and the one that was nearly all mediums. And it was the same for a hive that used a bottom entrance and the one that used a top entrance. (In the latter case I just added the empty box below the entrance shim.)

5) I don't use queen excluders and let the bees decide where to put their brood as the season progresses. And I do have a 2" wind skirt around the bottom of my lower box between the bottom board and the lowest box (like a slatted board, but no slats.) I run a SBB over a solid board. Reduced entrances, and often, robbing screens more or less constantly.

I am trying to formulate a plan for my (now) four colonies this spring. I expect I will have lots of drawn comb, but since I took no honey it may still be filled with honey. (Come on, girls - start eating!) As I mentioned above, I think I will try Lauri's partial sheet idea. And if I have them, I can checkerboard frames in the boxes above the brood nest. And I am thinking of using a Snelgrove board if I get antsy about swarms towards the end of the build-up as I'd like to make splits from my two that weren't split last summer anyway. But I'd like to wait as long as possible so I have flow-fed drones for the virgins to mate with.

Matt's method worked well for me. But was a lot of work, perhaps because the pace of the seasons up here in the north is compressed, not long and slow and spread out as it is in warmer climates. And it worked without having to make increase in two out of three, which was what I had hoped for.

Enj.


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## MattDavey

WBVC said:


> Now I am confused.
> 
> If you have drawn comb that is empty next to the comb with brood in it how does putting a different frame in that place help with anything? Do you replace an empty drawn frame with an undrawn frame?
> 
> If the frame on the outside of the brood is gilled with honey, nectar and pollen you then put it above the brood nest and replace with what...drawn or undrawn frames.
> 
> so as per the schematic is "E" drawn empty or an undrawn frame? I understand it to be undrawn and best to have foundationless with a starter strip or peek a boo foundation such as what Lauri tried.
> The purpose being to keep the bees building rather than making swarm preps.
> 
> Does undrawn plastic foundation not work at all?


Sorry used "Empty" frames in reply to Arlindi's example. I would prefer to call them "New" frames.

These frames are undrawn and have no more than half a sheet of foundation so that there is a hole that the bees need to fill.

As stated in the original post:
"The new frames should have only a strip of foundation as a comb guide. I would have no more than half a sheet of foundation on a new frame at most. There must be a HOLE close to the broodnest. The hole in the broodnest is what triggers comb building, (to fill the hole)."

If using plastic foundation (or wax foundation), I would cut it in half vertically as Lauri does and place it in the middle of the frames.


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## MattDavey

Thanks Enjambres. 

Others in the US have said every 1-2 weeks is more suitable for them. I can get away with 2-3 weeks here. It really depends on the amount of nectar coming in.

After the third time of doing it, I've found that as long as there is evidence of wax making, you don't need go into a brood box. I just put another new box on top and move up a few drawn frames.


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## beepro

Arlindi version:
For example,
(E = empty frame, D = drawn frame, B = brood frame)
EEEDEDEEEE
DDEBBBBEDD 

Matt's version:
EEEEDDEEEE
DDEBBBBEDD 

D = the New frame now.

The difference is where Matt put the 2 drawn comb in the upper box at the center. What if they had stop drawing the 2 new comb? Do I need to go in to inspect the brood nest for a possible swarm cells? Do I need to feed 2:1 to stimulate a flow if outside nectar not available for this to work?
How long to keep up with this hive expansion using this method? Can I combine this method with other method like checker boarding, excluding the queen to the lower box, slat matt, etc?


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## MattDavey

Sorry Beepro that is NOT correct.
In the above example:

E = A new undrawn empty frame with no more than 1/2 a sheet of foundation.
D = A drawn comb with some honey on it.

If they are ignoring new frames and not drawing wax, then look for swarm cells.

I can checkerboard supers after repeating the steps for the third time.

I usually start this method once nectar is coming in and there are a few frames with at least a 1/3 of capped honey on them. I prefer not to feed. 

The bees will draw out comb as long as there is nectar coming in.

You could use a queen excluder above the second brood box.


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## MattDavey

For clarification, I would prefer to use the following notation:

N = A new undrawn empty frame with no more than 1/2 a sheet of foundation.
H = A drawn comb with some honey, nectar or pollen.
B = a frame with some brood on it.


So let's look at an example:
I have made the frames that I expect the bees to draw out in *Bold.*

*START:*

HHHBBBBHHH


*AFTER FIRST MANIPULATION:*

NNNNHHNNNN
HH*N*BBBB*N*HH


*AFTER 2 WEEKS* (top two drawn frames were emptied out):

NNNNHHNNNN
HHBBBBBBHH


*AFTER SECOND MANIPULATION* (expect the bees to work on at least 4 new frames):

NNH*N*HH*N*HNN
H*N*BBBBBB*N*H


*AFTER 2 WEEKS* (Brood on bottom of frames in the top box, bees expanded in top more than expected): 

NHHBBBBHHN
HHBBBBBBHH


*AFTER THIRD MANIPULATION* (Add a new box on top, 8 new frames for them to work on):

NNH*N*HH*N*HNN
*N*H*N*BBBB*N*H*N*
H*N*BBBBBB*N*H

In the last example I'm expecting the bees to work on 8 new frames because there's 2 in the bottom box, 4 in the middle box and 2 in the top box. This is usually enough to get them past the swarm/repo cutoff and into the main flow.

The next time I go in I'm just looking at the top box and making sure it is continuing to be drawn out. It may need another box on it by then. Again I just move up a few frames of the outer honey frames.

If they appear to have stopped drawing comb, just put two new frames beside brood in the middle box to trigger wax making again.


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## Eduardo Gomes

enjambres said:


> 3) The bees drew large amounts of drone comb/honey cells before they settled down to wall-to-wall worker brood cells. I plan to use Lauri's partial sheet/centered approach this year to see if that makes a difference


I have used a similar technique to control swarming, but with full sheets of foundation, to prevent the drone comb, excess drone brood on the hive and after drag the mites .

To get closer to the Matt's technique, that involves creating a hole at the ends of the nest area, and to avoid the problem identified above I will do the following to try: put a portion of foundation sheet from the top to the down on the right side and left side of the frame. I leave the hole on the center from the top to the down. My idea is that in the center of the frame bees have less impetus to produce drone comb. Has anyone tried it?


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## MattDavey

The bees will fill any hole with drone comb initially, especially if there is no foundation on the top bar. Once they are happy with the number of drones in the hive they start building worker comb.

With a strip of foundation along the top bar they will build worker cells for a while but then transition to drone cells. I typically see the bottom third built as drone with the foundation strip.

Better to use worker foundation down the middle of the frame.


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## WBVC

I understand now what works best.
Having said that I do not have partial frames of undrawn comb.
Will this work at all if for the N space one has drawn but empty comb or full sheets of undrawn comb?


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## beepro

I can see that in a large operation it is harder to monitor and do the frame manipulation unless you have
more helpers. But in a small scale this can bee done successfully. I would take out the drone comb to put in another
hive without any drones. This way they will think there is enough drones to make some more worker
cells. The bees are not too picky about which drones come from where. They're just as happy with them all.


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## MattDavey

WBVC said:


> I understand now what works best.
> Having said that I do not have partial frames of undrawn comb.
> Will this work at all if for the N space one has drawn but empty comb or full sheets of undrawn comb?


The purpose of this method is to get the bees to draw comb, but yes you can put an empty drawn comb in the 'N' positions. It will buy you some time as they will now need to fill that comb.


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## beepro

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I have used a similar technique to control swarming, but with full sheets of foundation, to prevent the drone comb, excess drone brood on the hive and after drag the mites .
> To get closer to the Matt's technique, that involves creating a hole at the ends of the nest area, and to avoid the problem identified above I will do the following to try: put a portion of foundation sheet from the top to the down on the right side and left side of the frame. I leave the hole on the center from the top to the down. My idea is that in the center of the frame bees have less impetus to produce drone comb. Has anyone tried it?



Eduardo, the first technique to provide them with a full sheet of foundation is different from Matt's because without the hole. 
The 2nd technique will confused the bees a bit with a hole in the center of the frame. So they might draw out the drone cells in the center of the frame. Bees tend to draw out the worker cells in the center of the frame and then the drone cells on the top and 2 sides of the frame. Looks like you are reversing the process by providing the worker foundation on either side of the frame. Lauri's method is to give the worker foundation in the center so that they will draw out the drone cells on either side.

W: You can buy or make your own partial foundation strips to
put on the empty frame. The whole purpose is to creat a hole for
the bees to see that they have not complete their hive building
yet. So time to draw out more comb by tricking them this way. 
But with the 'drawn but empty comb' then you can do checker boarding. If you put the drawn empty comb or full sheet foundation in they cannot see the hole or no hole to draw at all. The more drawn empty comb you have the better to have them fill everything up. This method is for newbiees that do not have enough drawn comb to start with in their first year of beekeeping. By removing the side 2 frames close to their brood nest will create a hole for them to draw out the new frames accordingly.


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## beepro

MattDavey said:


> ..... but yes you can put an empty drawn comb in the 'N' positions. It will buy you some time as they will now need to fill that comb.


Yes, the whole purpose is to make more drawn comb to expand the nest area. 
By putting the empty drawn frame in they will fill it up with nectar and pollen. More pollen they will fill in unless the queen find this
frame to lay eggs in. She might not notice this frame if there is enough worker cells for her to lay in a 10 frame box. So with a frame of
already drawn empty frame I would put it inside the middle of the brood nest for the queen to lay in. You will not get any chill brood as it is
hot in the center of the nest. The nurse bees will take care of the larvae once they are hatched. And then open up the sides of the nest with the partial strip of frame.


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## MattDavey

As this is started before swarm season I prefer not to touch the brood frames, I especially do not insert any frames into the brood nest. There many not be enough bees and we still get cold nights.

Inserting frames increases the volume of the brood nest and they now have to heat that. If you get a cold night you may get chilled brood on the outer edges, or a reduced temperature in the brood nest which encourages chalk brood.

If it's very cold it could even cause the cluster to split, so that there is a cluster with a queen and cluster without a queen. The one without may then start emergency or supersedure queen cells. Exactly what you are trying to prevent!


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## Eduardo Gomes

MattDavey said:


> *AFTER FIRST MANIPULATION:*
> 
> NNNNHHNNNN
> HH*N*BBBB*N*HH
> 
> 
> *AFTER 2 WEEKS* (top two drawn frames were emptied out):
> 
> NNNNHHNNNN
> HHBBBBBBHH
> 
> 
> *AFTER SECOND MANIPULATION* (expect the bees to work on at least 4 new frames):
> 
> NNH*N*HH*N*HNN
> H*N*BBBBBB*N*H
> 
> 
> *AFTER 2 WEEKS* (Brood on bottom of frames in the top box, bees expanded in top more than expected):
> 
> NHHBBBBHHN
> HHBBBBBBHH
> 
> 
> *AFTER THIRD MANIPULATION* (Add a new box on top, 8 new frames for them to work on):
> 
> NNH*N*HH*N*HNN
> *N*H*N*BBBB*N*H*N*
> H*N*BBBBBB*N*H


Matt as a matter of standardisation of my hives I work most of my hives with mediums over depth nest.

My question is: if I open the holes in 4 hives, put the mediums on them with drawn comb, and on the second handling and following H and N frames of these four hives go up a fifth hive with two or more depth over, this will result for swarm prevention? My idea is to avoid having too many colonies with two or three deep at the top and only have some hives with this design, 2 or 3 deep above the nest. All others will have over the nest, mediums for nectar and then I will use in these mediums the chekerboarding. If I was not clear I apologize , I'll rephrase my statement.


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## MattDavey

Not exactly sure what you mean.

But I would just leave the deep box on the bottom, then use this method with only the medium boxes. So that you only use the one size frame.


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## Acebird

MattDavey said:


> As this is started before swarm season I prefer not to touch the brood frames, I especially do not insert any frames into the brood nest. There many not be enough bees and we still get cold nights.


I don't manipulate a hive if there is not enough bees and there is too much space. To me that is a recipe for disaster. I have never heard of a hive preparing to swarm if there is not enough bees and too much space. In this condition they are in survival mode not swarm mode.
Nectar has to come in before swarm. First you see pollen, then nectar and then watch out. So shortly before nectar the hive should be expanding using stored honey and new pollen. Just before nectar you give them new space, pick your favorite manipulation. If the bees will not go into the new foundation then you need to pull up frames that aren't new to let them know they have more space. Then the drawing begins. As the hive gets bigger and stronger you can get more aggressive on pulling up frames but most likely you won't have to.
You can also feed if you want to accelerate the process. I care not to.


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## laketrout

This is probably a minor issue , but since I'm using all mediums and don't have specific brood frames such as deeps for brood , this method will distribute unsupported frames throughout the hive . Whats going to happen when some of them get in the extractor , should they be marked if there going in the hive with partial foundation and no wire .


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## Thershey

Matt - I cannot thank you enough for sharing your methods, it gives me hope for what I feared was going to be a tough year for me with swarms. I increased my apiary 150% last year, it was all I could do to get them to draw enough frames to fill minimal sized boxes for overwintering. I am now faced with a warm/early spring, hives are brooding up fast and I have zero drawn frames for expansion. 

I have a few hives that have completely emptied the bottom box of a two medium stack. In an attempt to create some room overhead I had planned on reversing boxes this week. After reading your work I'm left wondering if it might be better to pull 4-5 of those empty but drawn frames out for later use in what would be empty supers closer to flow time?


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## Acebird

laketrout said:


> Whats going to happen when some of them get in the extractor , should they be marked if there going in the hive with partial foundation and no wire .


The frames that I have tried this with were completely filled in so you couldn't tell that there was partial foundation unless you looked close. No worries at all in the extractor. If they are not fully drawn there is no need to mark them they are already identified.


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## Acebird

Thershey said:


> After reading your work I'm left wondering if it might be better to pull 4-5 of those empty but drawn frames out for later use in what would be empty supers closer to flow time?


Are they empty or packed with last years pollen? By the time nectar comes they are bringing in fresh pollen and they don't need the old stuff. That is when I use it. I don't think it is critical. If you left it at the bottom they would just expand into it. Having a SBB allows you to see when they dig into it because the tray will have rows of the stuff. If you are going to pull frames you want to do it before they raise brood in it so you don't separate the brood.


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## Eduardo Gomes

MattDavey said:


> *AFTER SECOND MANIPULATION* (expect the bees to work on at least 4 new frames):
> 
> NNH*N*HH*N*HNN
> H*N*BBBBBB*N*H
> 
> *AFTER THIRD MANIPULATION* (Add a new box on top, 8 new frames for them to work on):
> 
> NNH*N*HH*N*HNN
> *N*H*N*BBBB*N*H*N*
> H*N*BBBBBB*N*H


If I understand well after the second manipulation you have a beehive with a deep nest and a deep super. After the third manipulation you have a beehive with a deep nest and two deep supers. If not, the second or third level boxes are mediums... so I do not understand how to fit there the frames of the deep. The question of terminology may be inducing me in error but I imagine that a medium is about half the height of a deep. Am I wrong?

If I'm not mistaken, than how can I avoid this configuration with 2 deep supers (that does not interest me, since I prefer mediums for the superplus honey)? My solution: join the frames from handling not in the manipulated hives, but in just a few hives dedicated to this purpose, serving as a warehouse for these deep frames, and in all other hives I'll super with mediums.

This solution that I purpose for myself is it compatible with the aim of reducing swarming preparations?


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## WBVC

If i have drawn empty comb and undrawn full sheet plastic comb...plastic in plastic frame...will they drawn the undrawn comb if there is no gap in it?


MattDavey said:


> The purpose of this method is to get the bees to draw comb, but yes you can put an empty drawn comb in the 'N' positions. It will buy you some time as they will now need to fill that comb.


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## beepro

If you are using medium as supers with a deep as the brood nest then you have to open the hole using the medium frames based on Matt's frames configuration. If not the deep frames cannot go inside the medium supers, obviously. I do not think a deep will swarm if you continue to open up the nest before the Spring main flow. Inside the initial deep box you have to attach a foam board to the medium N frame. Every time you move the N frames up you have to reattach the foam board or follower board again to the new N frames. So the foam board is for closing the gap space inside the deep brood box where the medium N frame rest on top. You got this Eduardo?
Ace is right to not do any manipulation without a strong colony of bees in there. When the colony is strong they will compensate for heating the extra frame of empty drawn frame in the middle of the nest when the queen lay in it. Yes, I have done it in mid-April when the weather is Spring like with warm steady flowing wind condition. 
If you have 2 boxes of empty drawn frames then do the checker boarding method. After the empty frames are drawn then switch over to Matt's method to further open up the nest. I don't see what's wrong using both method at the same time at all. Also, another thread said to use Snelgrove board to divert the flow of the forager bees. The poster said there is 0% swarming using the Snelgrove board method ever since. I don't see anything wrong with using 3 method combined in one colony.


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## MattDavey

Laketrout, medium foundationless frames should be fine in the extractor as long as they are attached on all sides and the comb is not new.


Thershey, you may be better waiting until they have expanded into the second box. Incoming nectar will push the brood nest down. Then you could move 4 frames into a new medium.


Eduardo, I have been using only deeps. Usually there is brood in at least 2 deeps, sometimes 3 deeps.

i'm suggesting you only use the one size frame for Opening the Sides. So if you want to use only 1 deep on the bottom of the hive, then don't touch them if you have brood in the medium above it. Then only use the mediums for Opening the Sides.

If you do not have any brood in the mediums, place 2 new medium frames into the deep for the first 2 weeks.

The 2 deep frames you take out can be placed above the box in either a temporary deep or in the top of 2 mediums. As these two frames will be emptied out anyway because they will not be considered part of the brood nest.

Then after that first 2 weeks, move the deep frames back to the deep and put the medium frames directly above the brood nest.


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## MattDavey

WBVC said:


> If i have drawn empty comb and undrawn full sheet plastic comb...plastic in plastic frame...will they drawn the undrawn comb if there is no gap in it?


If you have 4 or 5 drawn frames in a new box it may be enough for the bees to move into it and start expanding themselves.

Otherwise there needs to be a "hole" in the nest to trigger wax making before the end of swarm season. Plastic foundation is often ignored until there is a flow on. You could maybe make a hole in the drawn comb, so that they start making wax to repair it.

*Once wax making has started, the bees will drawn out foundation.

Only the first couple of frames need to have a "hole" to trigger wax making.*


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## Eduardo Gomes

Thank you for your attention Beepro .
Thank you Matt for your patience and clear and simple explanation. Great help you have given in the prevention of swarming, IMO.


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## MattDavey

Thank you for giving it a go. 

If you use Mediums then you should check after 1 week rather than 2 weeks.


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## WBVC

Ahh...i could use a dadant frame in the space where one puts the undrawn frame with a hole. They will then draw it is a deep...at least that is what they did when when all I had was a dant frame to fill up a nuc.



WBVC said:


> If i have drawn empty comb and undrawn full sheet plastic comb...plastic in plastic frame...will they drawn the undrawn comb if there is no gap in it?


----------



## Acebird

MattDavey said:


> If you use Mediums then you should check after 1 week rather than 2 weeks.


I think this is wise.


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## jcolon

I gave this a shot this weekend. February temps are in the 60s, wow. Wasn't expecting to find brood, but have three very busy frames. Next two were honey /pollen. Moved them up. Will check next week. Temps will be 50s till Wednesday with a slight dip into the mid 40s, then 50s again. Pretty exciting, feel like learning new stuff again! We'll see how it goes after a week.


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## Tommy Hodge

I am going to give this a go on a couple of my hives this year. Sounds like fun. Matt, are you seeing increased honey production with 3 deep brood nests and a significant population of bees since you have averted swarms? Do you over-winter in 3 deeps once you have established this 3 deep set up?


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## jcolon

I just did it Saturday. After 48 hrs the 2 outer frames were built abut 33%. I struggle last year with getting them to build comb. This was very impressive, and its only February.


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## MattDavey

Tommy Hodge said:


> I am going to give this a go on a couple of my hives this year. Sounds like fun. Matt, are you seeing increased honey production with 3 deep brood nests and a significant population of bees since you have averted swarms? Do you over-winter in 3 deeps once you have established this 3 deep set up?



Yes, have seen more honey production since having the larger populations.

I have wintered in 1 deep and 2 deeps. 2 deeps gives you more drawn comb to start off with as you can move 4 frames up rather than 2 for the first manipulation. It also gives you more time before having to check them again.

In summer I would try to manage them so that the brood nest is pushed down into the 2nd deep. Work with the outermost frames if you need to put on a super.

If you want to increase your number of hives, I would do it after summer solstice. Do a large spilt with several frames. You could use the 3rd brood box for this. They will fill a deep well before winter and the new queen will lay like a spring queen having a larger population going into winter.


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## MattDavey

jcolon said:


> I just did it Saturday. After 48 hrs the 2 outer frames were built abut 33%. I struggle last year with getting them to build comb. This was very impressive, and its only February.


Just wondering, what did you use for the new frames? A starter strip of foundation or half a sheet in the middle of the frame, wax or plastic? 
Thanks.


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## jcolon

MattDavey said:


> Just wondering, what did you use for the new frames? A starter strip of foundation or half a sheet in the middle of the frame, wax or plastic?
> Thanks.


I don't use foundation at all. My hive was five frame med nuc. Once i introduced foundationless frames last year they ignored the foundation frames. So the most i ever had is five frames of brood. I think this was the limiting factor on my hive staying small all year, along with my cluelessness. Queen never lay in them again and they became storage. I move them all to the outer sides. I use frames that have a groove on the top bar. I place a 1/4 sq dowel that i nest into the groove at a 45 degree angle glued with Titebond 3. I just drew a quick cross section, hope it helps. Gays have been on and off. @ or 3 days above 50 and sunny with a day in the mid 30s. Then 50 again and so on. I'm checking tomorrow with a high of 58 forecast. I'll try to post a pic so you see the progress. I am learning and honestly i knew this was a gamble with the weather being so variable, but this is Arkansas and i need to learn to deal with it. I am anxious to learn and grow these hive into a serious honey making machine and i think this is the way i will go forward this year.


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## MattDavey

Ok, dowel starter strip. Thanks.

A 5 frame medium is quite small. They would likely have expanded naturally themselves without any help just by putting them in a 10 frame box. Just make sure they have some capped honey. Otherwise you may need to feed them.

I would probably not do this method on anything less than a 10 frame medium or 5 frame deep. Just so they have enough resources.


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## Ky Speedracer

Matt, I am a newbie. I have read a lot and seen a lot of you tube vids. All this can get a little overwhelming for a new guy. But, with that said I think you have done a great job of explaining your concept so even I feel like I understand it.
I know this is primarily about swarm prevention. But I'm getting two 5 frame nucs in early April. I'll be installing each of them in a 10 deep hive body. I have no drawn comb. I would like to go foundation-less. I do have some sheets of foundation available if i need it. 
Do you think I would be best to plop the nucs into the middle of the hive body, fill the rest of the hive body out with empty foundation-less frames (making sure the hive body is level of course), and let her go? OR, assuming that the 5 frame nuc has a couple of frames of brood then a couple of frames of stores, insert the empty frames between the brood and stores?
Is there any benefit to using foundation in frames on the 1 or 2 outermost frames to kind of keeping them working in the center until they fill out the first deep? Also, when should I look to add the second deep? When everything is filled up except for the two outside frames? Then just work it like you've recommended in this thread and treat it kind of like swarm prevention in order to grow it? 
Thanks,
Steve


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## MattDavey

Hi Steve, 

I would preferably let them grow to 10 frames before using Opening the Sides.

A 5 frame Nuc will usually expand in a 10 frame box without any help.

I would put the Nuc frames to one side of the 10 frame box with only 1 new frame on the outer edge of the box. This may help stimulate comb building and they will likely build this frame first. If there is a solid frame of honey or nectar, put this towards the outer edge.

Also it helps to have the entrance reduced to help them with temperature control. You can just use a piece of wood. I would have the entrance no more than 2 inches wide until they have drawn out most of the frames. Put the entrance on the side that the Broodnest is on, so they can defend the entrance easier.

With the frames, I would use at least a 1/4 sheet of foundation, (cut horizontally) as a starter strip. I usually glue these in the groove of the top bar with PVA wood glue and let them dry with the frame upside down. That way if they expand quickly, the comb will more likely be straight.

You can begin Opening the Sides once they are starting to draw out the 9th and 10th frames.


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## Ky Speedracer

Pvc glue? Like pvc pipe plumbing cement? Interesting. I have plenty of that. That's simple enough to use and it is incredibly strong for sure. 

Thanks for the feedback!


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## MattDavey

Sorry Steve, that was a typo. Should be PVA glue. What you use for gluing wood.


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## Ky Speedracer

Gotcha. Lol. That makes more sense.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

If I have only a single colony, in a deep-medium configuration, and the deep is getting crowded, could I just remove (and sacrifice?) a frame from the deep to give them space and a reason to build comb?

I have a package arriving in ~10 days, so if my existing bees don't start swarm prep before then I'll just "donate" a frame of eggs & larvae to the new package.

But if I need to make space this weekend, I have no place to put a deep frame.


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## MattDavey

I'm assuming you will be putting the package into a deep. Which means that you can put that deep box on top of the existing hive until the package arrives.

So you can get an outside frame or two from the bottom box, and place them into the deep that will be used for the package on the top of the hive. The bees will likely empty out these frames.

Now you will have a couple of drawn frames for the package as well.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. So I can put my new frames into a new deep on top of my existing deep, and my old bees will prep them for my new bees 

Should I worry about creating a gigantic open space between my existing brood nest and their existing stores (2 mediums), or is that exactly what we're trying to do? And the two deep frames that I move up into the upper deep will be the "bridge" to their stores?

Thanks!


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## MattDavey

Just put the new Deep box on the top of the hive. So DMMD.

Don't change the configuration of the exisiting hive. You just want to introduction 1 or 2 empty frames. Not a whole box!


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## IAmTheWaterbug

What if the outside frames on my bottom deep have brood in them? Will the nurse bees make it all they way up past 3 medium supers to tend to the new deep? (they have 2 mediums of honey right now, and a new medium that I put on 5 days ago, so it's probably not very full yet, unless they surprise me tomorrow). So right now I have DMMM.


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## MattDavey

It's unlikely there will be brood on both outside frames, so you can move at least one. Don't want to be moving brood frames.

But, it sounds like you should be using the Mediums for Opening the Sides of the Broodnest. If the Broodnest has moved into the first medium, then you can just follow the method.

If they have no brood in the Medium boxes and the third Medium at least half drawn, then maybe put that medium box directly above the deep instead. I would alternate the drawn frames with empty ones to encourage the Broodnest to be expanded up into that medium.


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## Acebird

MattDavey said:


> I'm assuming you will be putting the package into a deep. Which means that you can put that deep box on top of the existing hive until the package arrives.


If he uses this deep for the new package he has to make sure the queen is not in it.


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## MattDavey

You would want to shake all the bees off from those two frames and make sure the Deep has no bees on it anyway when taking it off for the package. That's another reason why I wouldn't put it on top of the other deep.


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## lharder

I have 6 over wintered nucs that I have moved into big boxes this spring and will be using this method. I may be slightly more brutal about it and force the broodnest into new boxes if there is some hesitation about moving into a new box. Taking a single box 8 frame broodnest and configuring it into a 4 over 4 configuration in a hive that is start to boom would still be reasonably easy to heat and give them way more room to expand. I run all mediums and am really thankful that I made the decision to go with the same size box. I'll gradually force them into a 4 box brood chamber configuration (less or more depending on what they want), then bring up 9 combs at a time at place them above the brood nest for conversion to honey supers. I also bought an extractor. As I don't have a lot of extra comb, I will be extracting regularly so I can give it back to them. Will also checker board the supers.


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## popeye

Thank you Matt Davey for this thread. I followed all your directions and its working so far. I have five lang ten frame double deep hives going this year. Also each has 2014 summer queens which were made from my hives last year. The foundation less frames I used were Laurie's style. I used half sizes. Worker comb drawn on the plastic rite-cell and mostly drones on the foundation less. Fine with me. Also got more drawn frames I needed. Been checking weekly for swarm cells. I believe I'm past the reproductive swarm time now? Apples bloomed two weeks ago. I'm just a 3rd year hobby beekeeper.


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## MattDavey

Great to hear. I would think you need to wait until Apples have finished flowering before your swarm season is past. So maybe 3 weeks or so yet.

Just ensure that the hives are continuing to make wax and build comb, I prefer doing this until the Summer Soltice.

May be worth Opening the Sides once more if they have not moved into the supers.


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## jwcarlson

I have moved two sets of frames up and the bees have not moved up into the super (broodwise) they are storing nectar and pollen in the new frames. It has been a week an a half since I last checked and I will check tonight. I also dropped a drawn medium down to the bottom of the stack (was full of fall fed syrup) at the same time. They haven't hesitated to build those frames out. When would you typically expect to see the queen jump up and lay in the upper deep? There really isn't any worker comb up there at the moment except maybe a single frame from the first move I made. Which they had filled with nectar/honey last I checked. No obvious swarming signs, but being my first real spring with bees (packages last year), I'm guessing it takes some experience to spot this early on. Several queen cups in the hive but no eggs in them at last check.

Additional info...
So I think there are 5-6 mostly drawn frames, but only one of worker sized comb. Wouldn't that almost act as a deterrent for the queen moving up? She has plenty of drone comb in the bottom deep. The medium I moved down was all worker sized comb, but I have not got down into it since I moved it to the bottom. I am hoping that maybe they expanded down into that with brood and started bringing that stored syrup up. The whole hive is foundationless at this point. Anxious to see how the situation has changed in the last couple of weeks tonight.


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## Pathfinder

A ton of good info! Thank you! I am a bit confused though and am wondering if you could help. I live in Southeast Tennesee and I overwinter my hives in double 10 frame deeps. Our main flow is very end of April to very beginning of June. 

My plan is to do a combination of opening the sides of the brood nest as well as reversing. I plan on start feeding next year about mid February to stimulate growth and do my first reversal then. Then when the temps in march start to hit the 60's I plan on doing another reversal as well as opening the sides of the brood nest. my question is this. 

How would you go about opening the brood nest Ina double deep? Use deep frames and place a 3rd deep box on the hive or use mediums with follower boards and put my medium supers on the top of the double deeps? 

I am just a bit confused on the best way to go about it using double deeps for brood boxes and mediums for honey supers.


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## MattDavey

jwcarlson said:


> When would you typically expect to see the queen jump up and lay in the upper deep?


The queen won't necessarily move into the upper deep. The focus is more on the new frame(s) added beside the outer brood frames. You want these to be getting drawn and hopefully the queen laying in these frames.


----------



## MattDavey

Pathfinder said:


> I am just a bit confused on the best way to go about it using double deeps for brood boxes and mediums for honey supers.


Ideally you want to use all the same size frames. But using medium supers is able to be done.

Place the first two medium frames into the top deep, beside the outer brood frames. The two outer deep frames that you remove can be kept in a freezer. Or placed into the top of 2 medium boxes on the top of the hive, (so the the deep frame actually hangs down into the lower medium box). You just need to check the medium frames in less than a week, as they will likely build comb underneath the medium frames. It's easy to cut this off.


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## jwcarlson

MattDavey said:


> The queen won't necessarily move into the upper deep. The focus is more on the new frame(s) added beside the outer brood frames. You want these to be getting drawn and hopefully the queen laying in these frames.


This is occuring, but I am at the outside of the deep. She had laid some drone brood (still eggs) in the frame I moved up into the top deep last night (placed it in the middle so hopefully insulated).

What I saw last night:



jwcarlson said:


> I have moved two sets of frames up and the bees have not moved up into the super (broodwise) they are storing nectar and pollen in the new frames. It has been a week an a half since I last checked and I will check tonight. I also dropped a drawn medium down to the bottom of the stack (was full of fall fed syrup) at the same time. They haven't hesitated to build those frames out. When would you typically expect to see the queen jump up and lay in the upper deep? There really isn't any worker comb up there at the moment except maybe a single frame from the first move I made. Which they had filled with nectar/honey last I checked. No obvious swarming signs, but being my first real spring with bees (packages last year), I'm guessing it takes some experience to spot this early on. Several queen cups in the hive but no eggs in them at last check.
> 
> Additional info...
> So I think there are 5-6 mostly drawn frames, but only one of worker sized comb. Wouldn't that almost act as a deterrent for the queen moving up? She has plenty of drone comb in the bottom deep. The medium I moved down was all worker sized comb, but I have not got down into it since I moved it to the bottom. I am hoping that maybe they expanded down into that with brood and started bringing that stored syrup up. The whole hive is foundationless at this point. Anxious to see how the situation has changed in the last couple of weeks tonight.


They had mostly drawn one of the two new frames and one was about half built. I moved the mostly built one to the top deep and added another foundationless frame in it's place. Queen still has not ventured up, but she has ventured down. It looks like they are moving the syrup up (or consuming it). And quite a few cells were polished waiting for her to lay them up. They are absolutely backfilling the main deep broodnest, however. No eggs or larva in any of the 4-5 queen cups they have going (seems to be the normal amount for this hive). Should I split three or four ways this weekend? I could pretty easily get three strong splits + an additional with the old queen that is maybe not quite so strong. And have a different yard to relocate them to leaving the parent colony where they sit. This hive hasn't slowed down taking the protein patty either, is it possible they are storing it?

Starting to think maybe I left them with too much stores? My goal is to grow bees this year, I don't care much about a honey crop at the moment.


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## MattDavey

All that sounds fine. Several queen cups in a hive is not unusual, even when they are not interested in swarming.

Even though you don't care if you get a honey crop, I would tend to do splits around the time of the Summer Soltice. (End of June for you.) So you may be able to get some honey and do splits as well.

I would do large splits of at least 7 frames, and at least 3 of those frames having mostly capped honey. The stronger the split the more likely it will survive and won't need a lot of attention, such as feeding.

Queens raised at that time of year tend to lay more eggs in the Autumn (fall), so build up a bigger population for winter.


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## jwcarlson

MattDavey said:


> All that sounds fine. Several queen cups in a hive is not unusual, even when they are not interested in swarming.
> 
> Even though you don't care if you get a honey crop, I would tend to do splits around the time of the Summer Soltice. (End of June for you.) So you may be able to get some honey and do splits as well.
> 
> I would do large splits of at least 7 frames, and at least 3 of those frames having mostly capped honey. The stronger the split the more likely it will survive and won't need a lot of attention, such as feeding.
> 
> Queens raised at that time of year tend to lay more eggs in the Autumn (fall), so build up a bigger population for winter.


Is the backfilling a concern?


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## MattDavey

Depends on if you are near the end of the swarm season or not, the Broodnest will likely get reduced once your into the main flow.

If its mainly the drone comb getting back filled I wouldn't be too concerned

As long as the queen has space to lay (you mentioned plenty of empty polished cells). They may just be moving the broodnest if the queen is laying in that new comb. Ensuring that they continue to build new comb is a big deterrent to swarming (as they need to save up wax making in order to build comb when they swarm.)

Open brood and eggs is the other thing to check.

Ideally you want to see something like 33% open brood and eggs, compared with 66% capped brood. That is the proportion for a stable population. 

So look at those percentages as a guide to determine if they are expanding or reducing the broodnest. If reducing, get them building comb.


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## jwcarlson

MattDavey said:


> Depends on if you are near the end of the swarm season or not, the Broodnest will likely get reduced once your into the main flow.
> 
> If its mainly the drone comb getting back filled I wouldn't be too concerned
> 
> As long as the queen has space to lay (you mentioned plenty of empty polished cells). They may just be moving the broodnest if the queen is laying in that new comb. Ensuring that they continue to build new comb is a big deterrent to swarming (as they need to save up wax making in order to build comb when they swarm.)
> 
> Open brood and eggs is the other thing to check.
> 
> Ideally you want to see something like 33% open brood and eggs, compared with 66% capped brood. That is the proportion for a stable population.
> 
> So look at those percentages as a guide to determine if they are expanding or reducing the broodnest. If reducing, get them building comb.


We are probably two weeks from prime swarm season and the main flow. I had to rub my eyes this AM as I believe I saw locust blooms... I was hoping they would hold out for a bit longer because our weather this spring was GREAT for maple bloom and has been absolutely lousy (cool) and rainy since. So I think they've been somewhat reluctant to build much comb. There was absolutely less uncapped brood in the hive than there has been, probably more towards 80% capped, and what's emerged recently is getting backfilled (worker comb). The other observation I've made is that she doesn't seem to be laying in large patches. For instance, she'd laid a hand sized patch on the newly drawn frame I inserted (drone), and then another hand sized patch (worker) in the bottom medium where I'd noticed more polished cells. Almost like she's running all over the place looking for cells? Before there was much better organization of the broodnest it seemed.

Picture of her pattern from a couple weeks ago... 5 or so frames like this everytime we checked (plus more frames of eggs/uncapped):


Now it's filled in in the middle with edges capped.

Like you mention, it's possible that they are just shifting it down some and I've caught them in a bit of a transition period. I would say there were only enough empty polished cells for one decent day of laying for her, but I have just recently started being able to recognize when they're polishing cells. So maybe that is a normal amount. Regardless, there is certainly not an abundance (any) empty combs, but the newly drawn combs at the edge of the broodnest have been relatively empty before moving them up and replacing. 

Looking back on possibly an "opps"... the hive next to this one ended up with a drone layer so I shook them out and they joined this colony. I then took the combs from the old colony, slashed them with a knife, and put them out 30 feet from this hive. They ignored it when maple was going, but in the recent cool/wet weather they have really hit it hard and emptied most of the syrup. I was hoping they would treat it like a flow and start drawing comb (and they have to a certain extent), but they have also backfilled a lot. 

In my head I know that the number of open cells I saw is not "enough"... I'm just banging ideas around in my head through the keyboard. I thought after our first full inspection coming out of winter (showed five frames of capped brood) that we were going to struggle to keep this hive from ending up in a tree. It looks like that is the case. The good news is that the rain is going to make for a heck of a sweet clover flow here if we get good flight weather. Wish I had more drawn comb. 

Another thing that I guess I struggle with (because I'm new) is how large of a brood nest to expect. I have my frames shaved to 1.25" and they are all foundationless. She has brood on both sides of 10 of those frames. Smaller patches on the outside one. And she's just starting to lay in the medium that's on the bottom. She did that on maple/early stuff flow. And coming out of winter before virtually any flow (except me adding pollen sub patties), she had about 5 frames.


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## MattDavey

Wow, great frame of brood in the picture.

What about the frames from the drone laying hive ? Can't you use any of those, or put another box on the hive from that?

The good thing is that they are drawing comb, so keep them working on that with a new frame on each side of the Broodnest. Check weekly if you can.

Are you sure that there haven't been eggs in the newly drawn comb? It's harder to see the eggs because the comb is light in colour.


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## jwcarlson

MattDavey said:


> Wow, great frame of brood in the picture.
> 
> What about the frames from the drone laying hive ? Can't you use any of those, or put another box on the hive from that?
> 
> The good thing is that they are drawing comb, so keep them working on that with a new frame on each side of the Broodnest. Check weekly if you can.
> 
> Are you sure that there haven't been eggs in the newly drawn comb? It's harder to see the eggs because the comb is light in colour.


There has been only a few eggs in the new stuff, I look it over pretty well. I do have some comb from the drone layer, it was mostly full of syrup and they were robbing it out. They were part of my top bar to lang mistake so I need to cut them out and rubber band them into new frames still. I was waiting until they weren't so laden with syrup, which makes them difficult to handle and put into frames. I think they'll have emptied most of them out by now, though. Back in it tomorrow. I've been wanting to graft and raise some queens (mostly just because), so I might take a good amount of bees and a few frames from the hive tomorrow and set up a cell builder for grafting Sunday.

If I do that and I have some empty worker sized combs from the other hive that might help quell the impulse for now with less bees and more open space. 

I appreciate this thread, Matt, and your 1-on-1 responses to many individuals within it.
Thanks!


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## MattDavey

Thanks, my pleasure.

It sounds like feeding them syrup is the issue here. Adding feeding to the equation just makes it more complicated.

Another option is to extract frames of syrup to get more empty comb, but if they are top bar frames you don't have that option...

I recommend not feeding unless the bees look like they are going to starve.

Have fun with the grafting.


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## Pathfinder

I have another question for you. Since I run double deeps with medium supers and have no drawn comb should I pit in medium frames and then put the drawn frames in my super or should I use deep frames and stack a 3rd hive body on top and then right before the flow pull the third body and force all of the bees into the two hive bodies therefore forcing in them into my in supers with only foundation to draw? My thoughts are that by doing the latter I would better expand the amount of brood space available until the flow and then when the flow hits there are 3 deeps of bees packed into 2 deeps with foundation supers it will better force them to draw It.


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## MattDavey

They will likely go into swarm mode if you suddenly remove a box from them.

Also, if you remove frames as they are drawn, you may be removing eggs from them. As the queen often lays in the new comb.

Better to just put a couple of mediums frames in the deep for a few days. Then once they are mostly drawn, put on the medium super and put those frames in it.


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## Pathfinder

Thank you! I am really wanting to try Wrights Nectar Management but do not have the combs. Hopefully this will help As well as prevent swarming. I think since I am going to use Walts CB I will do what it looks like he does and overwinter my new colonies I am establishing right now with a single deep , a super of honey on top and a super on bottom for pollen. 

Quick question in your experience can I get a medium frame drawn a week till the main honey flow?


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## MattDavey

During swarm season you can definitely get the bees to drawn one medium per week, sometimes more depending on the flow.


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## michkel

MattDavey said:


> During swarm season you can definitely get the bees to drawn one medium per week, sometimes more depending on the flow.


This intrigues me. My bees do not fill a super that quickly.


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## MattDavey

You can get them to draw one medium *frame* per week, but you would need to keep putting an empty frame beside the Broodnest each week. Moving an outermost frame up into the super.

They won't necessarily fill those frames or the super with nectar within that time.


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## michkel

Ah okay, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the explanation.


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## Pathfinder

That is awesome. The reason I ask is that since I plan on checkerboarding if I can overwinter my hives with one deep body and a medium super on top with stores if I do not have that second empty medium with drawn comb perhaps I can get them to draw enough comb during swarm season to slowly checkerboard each week. Or if I'm lucky and I have that second super of drawn comb perhaps I can checkerboard the two supers of drawn comb as well as get them to draw comb before the flow to give them a head start for the main flow my placing that comb with foundation less on top of my two checkerboarded super... as soon as I get Walt manuscript I am going to ask him if that would be feasible.


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## MattDavey

Yes, I effectively Checkerboard outermost drawn frames that are moved up with new undrawn frames and these also get drawn out very well.

You may get some fat and some thin combs, as the bees tend to extend comb with nectar into the space. But you can move the honey frames around to even them out. You get more honey from fatter combs and they are much easier to work with.


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## jwcarlson

Well, my queen has officially laid brood in all 11 frames across in the main deep. And a few of the frames in the medium below. I'm starting to wonder if this yard will be boom or bust depending solely on the alfalfa getting a chance to bloom or not. I shook five frames of bees into a cell builder and took four combs as well (but had 4 combs to give after rehabbing the drone layer).

So I moved another frame up from outside about 3/4 drawn with worker sized comb that had been laid up. So now there are in the main deep: one empty frame and 10 frames consisting of mostly brood (backfilling seems to have slowed). There are more bees in the top deep now for sure, starting to work it pretty well. There are now two frames containing brood in the top deep with about three frames on each side ranging from mostly empty to mostly full. I pulled four of their mostly pollen/mostly honey frames into the cell builder and replaced with mostly empty combs. It doesn't seem like I have taken any bees from the hive to be honest... still a bunch. And they're still plowing through pollen patty pretty quickly. I am nearly out of patties that I made so I think they're about done getting new. 

Saw the queen walking around the upper deep yesterday looking in cells (that were full or partially full) of honey. There are other empty frames up there, I hope she found them after I closed them back up. 

Considering moving my started cells onto the top of my big colony above excluder this afternoon (48-hours after graft), but I REALLY don't want to have something goofy go wrong and loose that queen. And it's my first swing at queen rearing, so the chances of that happening seem pretty large right now.


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## MattDavey

All that sounds like things are going well.

If you want to put the cell back on above an excluder, make sure you have a top entrance facing the opposite direction to the bottom one. That way if a virgin queen leaves the hive she is much less likely to go back in the bottom entrance and kill your great queen. But that's getting off topic...


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## jwcarlson

MattDavey said:


> All that sounds like things are going well.
> 
> If you want to put the cell back on above an excluder, make sure you have a top entrance facing the opposite direction to the bottom one. That way if a virgin queen leaves the hive she is much less likely to go back in the bottom entrance and kill your great queen. But that's getting off topic...


I'm a bit more worried about her ending up slipping through the excluder. And I am planning on moving the cells into mating nucs anyway. I just don't want to have grafted a bit older larva and have it emerge a day before I expect and have her axe the cells and the queen. 

Not trying to drag off topic. 

Anyway, it seems like they have now accepted the space above as expansion area to a certain extent at least. We are still a couple of weeks away from prime swarming here. Black locust just popped in the last couple of days. Basswood I believe has started or will be very soon. I think those two are what pushes them over the edge typically.


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## MattDavey

Let us know how it goes. Just keep them busy making comb.


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## jwcarlson

MattDavey said:


> Let us know how it goes. Just keep them busy making comb.


I don't understand why these bees aren't drawing much comb. The broodnest does appear to be getting bigger. But comb building has stopped or at least slowed very much. No queen cups with eggs or larva. I've already had to split a couple of top bar hives that were getting ready to swarm. Got my first swarm call also on Monday. I'm almost disappointed that they aren't making swarm cells... as odd as that sounds. They are certainly packing in nectar. The boxes are heavier, I just keep forgetting my scale so that I can monitor weight gain. Queen still laying fresh eggs, but a lot of frames of capped brood so should see a boost in population here in the next week or so. She keeps laying the outside comb with brood and I keep moving it up into the center of the top deep where she is now laying actively.

So the hive is a medium on bottom, getting full of lots of pollen two middle frames have capped worker brood on about 3/4 of the frame, still quite a bit of capped syrup/honey in that box as well. Then a deep on top of that, 11 frames that I've shaved to 1.25" end bars. 10 frames with brood, one barely drawn then I moved the other outside frame w/ brood up so two mostly empty bars on the outsides now. Then the second deep. I took four combs out of this when I made up my cell builder (a couple were cut from the drone layer and rubber banded). I don't have an exact count, but there'd probably 6 of the 11 frames in the top deep that are 90% drawn. Three in the middle have brood on them and she is visiting the upper deep to lay now. I'm considering spacing with new frames on the outside of the brood frames and just sliding the frames of honey towards the sides. Same concept as opening the sides as discussed here, but the frames wouldn't go "up" when pulled, just to the side. At least until they need supered. We are nearing our main flow.

If only there were some magic bullet to keep my top bar hives from swarming.


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## MattDavey

jwcarlson said:


> I'm considering spacing with new frames on the outside of the brood frames and just sliding the frames of honey towards the sides. Same concept as opening the sides as discussed here, but the frames wouldn't go "up" when pulled, just to the side. At least until they need supered. We are nearing our main flow.
> 
> If only there were some magic bullet to keep my top bar hives from swarming.


I do exactly that with my Long hive. So the same concept can be done on the Top bar hive.

Just side the honey frames over and insert a new bar/frame beside the outer brood frame(s). Harvest a bar/frame or two if you can.

You will see more comb building once the main flow sets in.


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## Acebird

In a normal Lang hive you will find drones raised toward the outside of the brood nest. How does it work in a Long hive when you add frames in one direction on the edge of the brood nest? Where do they make drones?


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## Pathfinder

When setting up a foundation less frame do you put a strip of foundation running across the top, horizontally, or do you place a strip in the middle running down, vertically?


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## MattDavey

Ace, I have mostly used foundation strips until this last season, so there is usually drone comb towards the sides or the bottom of frames.

With new (foundationless) frames it depends on the time of year and the current drone population as to what type of comb is drawn. In spring the bees will typically build drone comb, unless you give them a foundation starter strip. When they have enough drones in the hive they then can draw completely worker comb in a frame placed in that position.

Pathfinder, I have used both a horizontal starter strip of foundation and a half sheet of foundation placed in the middle of the frame.

With the foundation starter strip I often see about 2/3 worker comb (that transitions) to 1/3 drone comb on a frame. With the drone comb either being on the sides or the bottom of the frame.

With the half sheet of foundation you get more of a guarantee of worker comb in the middle, all the way down the frame and drone comb on the sides. I would recommend this type of frame as the Broodnest is more consistent and more like a barrel shape. And frames can be moved easier (like doing a split) if needed.


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## jwcarlson

My bees drew about 2-3 combs of nearly full drone, I started moving them up so I didn't have her actively laying that many frames. They've stopped drawing drone comb now and the newly drawn stuff is worker comb. I'm 100% foundationless at the moment. Considering breaking out the Mann Lake plastic frames I've got. Haven't had a chance to shave them down to 1.25" at the endbars though. :/


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## Acebird

MattDavey said:


> Ace, I have mostly used foundation strips until this last season, so there is usually drone comb towards the sides or the bottom of frames.


After the frames are drawn do you have to re-arrange them the next year or just let it go. I don't pay attention to what goes where in my Lang hives but I do try to add a few frames of partial foundation each year so they can build what ever.


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## MattDavey

If there are a few frames with a lot of drone comb in the Broodnest area, once they have no brood in them, I tend to move them to the outsides of the Broodnest area. The Broodnest area being frames with dark comb (from old cocoons), not necessarily frames with brood in them. The rest of the frames stay in the same order.


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## jwcarlson

Well, I finally "lost" the battle with them. She finally laid in some of the queen cups (lots of jelly!). So I split her out on her own with three frames of capped brood (to also weaken the original colony) and then shook three or four more frames of bees into the new hive. They haven't really backfilled at all, but they have packed the hive with brood.



I think this method delayed them significantly though. Before I started they were backfilling emerging brood weeks ago. Thanks for all your help, Matt. I'll be employing the same technique on a few more colonies as the year goes on. We're about ready to hit our flow and with the rain it might be pretty intense. Hoping to keep them all in boxes!


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## MattDavey

The question is how many queen cells are there?

It may actually be supersedure, especially if there is still plenty of brood.
5 or less queen cells is usually supersedure. Though I have seen them supersede and also throw a swarm as well.


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## jwcarlson

MattDavey said:


> The question is how many queen cells are there?
> 
> It may actually be supersedure, especially if there is still plenty of brood.
> 5 or less queen cells is usually supersedure. Though I have seen them supersede and also throw a swarm as well.


Good question, Matt. One started for sure. Plenty of other cups in the hive. NONE of them are in a convenient place for looking into, in fact nearly impossible to see into them (maybe foundationless lets them hide them better? ). I will be back into that hive on Thursday and also checking the split (with her in it) to see if there are more being built out. I know the bees are smarter than I, but if I can harness her laying power for a few more weeks heading up this split before she peters out, my apiary will be better off for it. I still want to graft from her, hoping to try to make up a cell builder on Sunday. My first attempt was too weak and I was awful at grafting. Hoping to get a few of her daughters to head up nucs at some point this summer and try to winter some of them.

This would be the right time for them to supercede her. Flow coming, and she was a queen I snagged with a swarm last year.

I should know better on Thursday. I am a little bit gunshy as I had two swarms from June last year that ended up swarming a couple of months later. I'd noted the queens being started, but read it as supercedure (based on timing). I know a little bit better this year, though.


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## wcubed

Just checked in on this thread to see what has happened since P4. Whoof. A bunch. Matthew, they have kept the pressure on you, and you handled it well. It's your ballgame, and I have nothing to add.

I was curious why you dropped checkerboarding of the raised frames from the sides of the broodnest.? At your leisure.

Walt


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## Pathfinder

Matthew has done an impeccable job Walt! Between your CBing and Matthews Opening the sides of the brood nest I look forward to very few swarms next year. I cannot wait till next spring to work both in to my hive management and will post the results. I also wonder why CBing was dropped as well. I would think that the combination of the two would synergize off of each other.


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## popeye

Opening the sides of broodnest worked out well for me this year too. Now I'll have more drawn comb for CBing next year. Thank you for starting this post.


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## MattDavey

wcubed said:


> Just checked in on this thread to see what has happened since P4. Whoof. A bunch. Matthew, they have kept the pressure on you, and you handled it well. It's your ballgame, and I have nothing to add.
> I was curious why you dropped checkerboarding of the raised frames from the sides of the broodnest.? At your leisure.
> 
> Walt


Hi Walt, great to hear from you!

Checkboarding frames that are moved up hasn't been dropped. The only difference is that the first two drawn frames moved up into a new box are placed together (rather than having an undrawn frame inbetween them).

I've just found that the bees are more likely to move into the new box with at least 2 drawn frames together. 3 drawn frames placed together in a box is even more likely to be accepted as part of the hive. *The rest of the frames are Checkerboarded, frames that are moved up with new frames.*

This is with Deep frames, it may be less of an issue with Mediums and even less with Shallows.

If the 2 drawn frames have an undrawn frame inbetween them, I've had the bees just empty those frames out and treat them as if they are not part of the hive. The acceptance of these frames probably depends on the strength of the flow and the population at the time of adding.


For an extreme example, you could do:

H*N*H*N*HH*N*H*N*H
*N*H*N*BBBB*N*H*N*
H*N*BBBBBB*N*H

Thanks Guys for your comments!


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## Pathfinder

Question. Thought I asked but can't remember. The strip of foundation in the frames. Is it horizontal across the top or vertical in the middle.


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## MattDavey

I've done both. Prefer the vertical half sheet in the middle of the frame for reliability of worker comb in the middle of the frame.

See post 108 for my previous reply.


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