# All mediums for a complete hive?



## LittleTreeGuy (Aug 8, 2016)

So, let me preface this with - I'm not a beekeeper yet. This is going to be a VERY beginner question, and I hope it's okay to ask here... I hope to be knowledgeable enough by next spring to feel confident enough to get some of my own bees, but for now, I'm just reading, learning, watching, reading, and reading. I've talked to a few keepers already and they are great with sharing knowledge and answering questions for me. In my readings, I've come across what I think I want, but have some questions regarding it. I would love to hear your thoughts...

The hives I've seen first hand have all been something like this(seems to be the most common in my area):
1 or 2, deep, 10-frame hive body with either mediums or maybe a medium and a shallow on top for honey.

Now, I'm a smaller guy and I wasn't blessed with super-strength.... so...

I was thinking for MY hive, I would want a setup like this:

2 medium, 8 frame hive bodies (for brood), and then up to 2 mediums more and then shallows after that.


Now, I have read where not all mediums are the same size, they may differ by 1/4-1/2". I'm hoping if I get them all from the same place I won't have to worry about that. Is there a down-side to using mediums over deeps for the hive body? Do the bees doo better with the deep frames over the medium frames, or does it really matter?


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## gtwarren1966 (Jul 7, 2015)

LittleTreeGuy said:


> So, let me preface this with - I'm not a beekeeper yet. This is going to be a VERY beginner question, and I hope it's okay to ask here... I hope to be knowledgeable enough by next spring to feel confident enough to get some of my own bees, but for now, I'm just reading, learning, watching, reading, and reading. I've talked to a few keepers already and they are great with sharing knowledge and answering questions for me. In my readings, I've come across what I think I want, but have some questions regarding it. I would love to hear your thoughts...
> 
> The hives I've seen first hand have all been something like this(seems to be the most common in my area):
> 1 or 2, deep, 10-frame hive body with either mediums or maybe a medium and a shallow on top for honey.
> ...


I had the same dilemna last year trying to decide. I know some guys run the all mediums and even all 8 frame mediums. I chose the 2 deeps for brood simply because it gives me less frames to have to go thru during an inspection. 20 frames versus 40 for a complete 8 frame typical brood nest. I don't typically pick up the deeps at all and unless you plan on some sort of migratory operation you probably won't either. You will also find it more difficult to get a nuc in all medium as well. There are advantages to all mediums as well, including being able to move frames from a super to your brood box if necessary plus you can 'bait' the bees up with all the same frame size if needed.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You'll need four eight frame medium boxes for brood (the same volume as two ten frame deeps) and the rest for honey. I use eight frame mediums for everything. Much simpler.


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## Clairesmom (Jun 6, 2012)

There is no reason at all that you cannot use all mediums for your hive(s). I have, on occasion, over the years, used mediums for brood boxes and I have always been amazed at how much faster the bees grow in the smaller boxes, even the 10 frame mediums, which is what I have.

I am a short woman and as I get older, and suffer from a recurring back injury, I am thinking about switching to all mediums myself, in order to avoid lifting the heavier deeps. 

You will want to make sure to provide enough mediums to ensure that the bees have sufficient space in the brood nest. I would think more like 4 or 5 mediums if you are going with 8 frame boxes. Not sure what is common in your area for overwintering, but I am sure someone more local to you will pop on and answer that for you.

I guess the only "downside", if you could call it that, is that you will spend a little more $$$ to get the same amount of frame space that you would get if using fewer deeps. But, for a hobbyist, I don't even really see that as a downside. I think the rule of thumb used to be that buying the equivalent (in terms of space) in mediums would run approx 30% more, cost-wise, but don't know if that holds true these days. You can check the catalogs and do a price comparison if that is a concern.

I have never heard that boxes might vary in depth. Buy from a reputable dealer and you should not have any problem with box quality.

Good luck!


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## Crood (May 4, 2015)

I'm a 37 year old guy running 8-frame mediums in my second year. If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably go with 10-frame mediums, but otherwise I'm happy with my decision. To echo what others have said, the big pro is that the frames are completely interchangeable between boxes. the downside is that to do a complete inspection you have to go through a lot more frames, which adds a lot of time when you're new.


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

I guess the question you have to ask yourself is:

Is the difference between 40-50 lbs versus 32-40 lbs worth the extra cost and extra height of 8 frame equipment? 

You also have to remember that with 8 frame equipment you're going to have 1 box higher than 10 frame equipment. That means lifting from a higher point, which may or may not be more difficult than lifting a slightly heavier box that's 9.5" lower. 

Other's mileage may vary, but in my experience my bee's draw out deeps faster (per area) than mediums. I do both because I sell nucs. There are are fewer people selling medium nucs and they typically aren't as strong as deep nucs. 

You could always do 1 deep on the bottom (8 or 10 frame) and then mediums on top. This would allow you to get a more available deep nuc, but not have to worry about lifting heavy boxes.


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## shaneTX (Jun 7, 2016)

A few months ago, someone had posted a link that went through the calculations of how much space a hive needs.. If I recall, it was something like 115K cells for the brood. the author then went through how many frames of each size would be needed to make up that number. 

Does anyone recall that page? I searched and couldnt find it.. I could totally be off on the 115K number..


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You should adjust the space to the size of the colony. That changes throughout the year and varies form colony to colony. There is no static magic number...


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

Also depends on bee lineage (i.e. russian hybrids vs italian hybrids) and climate. Personally I run very large hives (3-4 deep a la Marla Spivak's method) going into winter with very good overwintering success in zone 4a, but this might not be appropriate for someone living in Pennsylvania. 

At the same time, I've also had success overwintering 5 frame nucs that are 3-4 deep high (15-20 deep frames). So its hard to say one needs X number of cells or x size cluster to overwinter. Personally I think of it as food/bee ratio's; big hive needs big food, small hive needs smaller food reserves.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

When I was younger lifting ten frame boxes wasn't a big deal. Then I moved and it was a few years before I got back in. Since I was getting older, I decided to go with eight frame mediums. 

Just for the hell of it, I did build one ten frame hive. Halfway through the first season I was nope, no more of that. I'm not in for production, its just a hobby and not worth a wrenched back. Stings are bad enough without adding that on top, hobbies are not supposed to suck. In the spring I cut that hive down to eight frame boxes. 

Brood boxes are not as heavy as honey supers, so last winter I built two 8 frame deeps to try them out. I'm running them as the very bottom box now, and they've been OK weight wise. I'm planning to make some more 8 frame deeps and set up four hives with double eight deeps and see how it goes. 

One thing that I have noticed, and this might just be personal bias, but it seems to me that the boxes that have external handle strips instead of cut recessed handles are much easier to lift even when they are full and heavy.


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## MichiganMike (Mar 25, 2014)

I use eight frame mediums for all my boxes; I find the interchangeability of the frames to be very beneficial. I agree that brood boxes do not weigh as much as honey supers and deeps would not be that difficult to manage but I am pleased with my set up. I am removing supers this week and have a couple in the garage so after reading this post I decided to go weigh them. They are 48 pounds each. I am 71 and of average build and I would not want anything heavier. 

I initially purchased boxes from Dadant and now use Mann Lake. The Mann Lake boxes are wider than the Dadant boxes and the Dadant telescopic covers are a real tight fit if a Mann Lake box is a top box. I recommend that you stick with one vender for your wooden ware if possible. If you decide to maintain a nuc or two Brushy Mountain has five frame medium equipment that is top quality.


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## MichiganMike (Mar 25, 2014)

shaneTX said:


> A few months ago, someone had posted a link that went through the calculations of how much space a hive needs.. If I recall, it was something like 115K cells for the brood.
> ..


Of course Michael Bush is correct that the brood chamber should be sized to the cluster, however, as a general rule four medium eight frame boxes with normal sized foundation has about 131,968 cells which exceeds the number quoted above. Natural cell size foundation would likely have even more cells. I plan on seven boxes per colony but rarely use them all.


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## LittleTreeGuy (Aug 8, 2016)

Excellent feedback... thank you all so very much! Sounds like a lot of it is personal preference, which I'm kind of glad to hear. If one way was definitely better for the bees, I'd want to go that way, but I guess the same applies here as in nature... a good group of bees will make due with whatever space they have at hand. I'm with JConnolly, this is only a hobby adventure for me, at least for now. If after a year or so I can get a little bottle of honey for myself and maybe one for my parents, I'd be happy. 

I can see pros and cons of going with either. I guess I'm even more clouded on what to choose, but I do have a better understanding of why I might choose one size over the other. 

I was able to talk to a member of a local club and I think I'm going to get to visit some apiaries in the very near future, so I'm hoping that will help with my decision as well. Thank you all so very much!


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## MichiganMike (Mar 25, 2014)

Because of your comment about honey I just feel compelled to respond with one more post. Unless you plan on purchasing a package or nuc most springs you will need a minimum of two hives and that is risky, three is better or two and a nuc. I manage 4-6 colonies depending on my over winter losses and I do not try to prevent swarming. Nevertheless each of my colonies produces a lot of honey. I normally extract 75-150 lbs off each hive by the beginning of August and leave the fall flow for the bees. I do not feed sugar. My minimum target weight for the end of October is 150 pounds for each colony but I am usually closer to 170. My long winded point is that you need to be prepared for a lot more honey than you seem to believe. Good luck.


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## Jim_in_PA (May 17, 2016)

Aside from a few deeps that were part of the first "hive kits" my better half started out with, we decided early on to go "all mediums" going forward, both to make weight more manageable and to just plain standardize on one size box. While we had seen multiple discussions of this over time, Mr's Bush's resources confirmed that this was going to be the best way "for us". Honestly, I don't think there's any "wrong answer" here...the bees don't really care what the individual box size is as long as they have the right space to "do their bee thing", be happy and productive. "We" just have to manage things so that we provide the bees the best chance and environment for winter survival.


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## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

Because of Michael Bush's website and book I went with 8 frame mediums. I had a small glich when I got a frame of brood from another beekeeper. She only used deeps. I hung it in the second box so it dropped down into the bottom. Then last August I got a nuc from another beekeeper. It was a deep. I broke down and bought a deep body. That hive happens to be doing the best this year. I still plan on only making mediums. 1x8s are cheaper than 1x12s.


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## larrypeterson (Aug 22, 2015)

If I may,

The eight frame medium box is much much easier to manage, especially when it is used as a honey super. I am in the process of converting all my production colonies to the 8 frame medium. (Thanx Michael Bush!) There is another factor that I think is worth mentioning. If you watch the u-tube vid's it becomes quite clear that many 'keepers are stacking the mediums up 6 or 7 high. This translates into an investment in boxes, frames and foundation if you use it. I calculated 5 boxes per colony along with a top and bottom. I like the round entrance wheel on front and back of each box in addition to the regular bottom entrance. This allows me the option to convert them to top entrance hives, especially in the winter. Additional stands will probably be needed and you may want to paint every thing.

I will still keep my baby nuc's, deep 10 boxes and 5 frame nuc's. The nuc is pretty well standardized as a deep and the baby nuc's are still handy for queen mating and start up hives with a very small investment in resources. The main point of my epistle is to point out that the cost is a factor to consider as well as the time putting all the stuff together. I personally think it is well worth it. I try to be careful to not "rain on anyone's parade, however, I think being realistic about the real cost of doing business is important. When the young energetic beeks talk about going commercial, I cringe at their optimism. I have an friend that does the California almond circuit and I assure you it isn't all money and glory. I have another friend that trucks bees from North Dakota to the almonds and that can be super problematic. The $ debt these folks enter into is like a "ball and chain" and the mortgage locks you into a "run for the roses". Sorta like the tail wagging the dog. In past years when I have dealt with agricultural financing, the lenders wanted from %35 to %65 percent secured up front. I don't think my wife would approve of me mortgaging the home to buy bees and service almonds. I don't think I could afford the alimony and the payments on the bee business along with 1/2 of everything I own.

I do wish you well and would recommend the medium 8 frame as a production box. Thanx, LP


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

larrypeterson said:


> There is another factor that I think is worth mentioning. If you watch the u-tube vid's it becomes quite clear that many 'keepers are stacking the mediums up 6 or 7 high.


Try 10 frame *deep *boxes 6-7 high! I have one hive started this year that I just harvested from that was 6 deep (10 frame) high! That's the equivalent of 11 8-frame medium boxes!

I have a double queen vertical hive that before harvesting this year was 7.6 deep high (way over my head). That's 14 8-frame medium equivalents.



As others have shown, even if you go "all" mediums it's sometimes nice to have 1 deep box (8 frame in your case) on the bottom so you can get frames and nucs from fellow beekeepers without having to put deep frames into medium equipment.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I started with 8 frame mediums and really like all frames being the same. But I went to 10 frame mediums this summer and like that better. I use my old 8 frames for nucs now.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

LittleTreeGuy said:


> If after a year or so I can get a little bottle of honey for myself and maybe one for my parents, I'd be happy.


You'll get a lot more than a couple of bottles. A lot more.

I don't know if it was mentioned or not, but you should have two hives at a minimum. Two hives will let you compare one to the other, and if something goes wrong, if you have a second hive you have options to do something about it. A weak hive can be boosted by moving a frame of brood over. If a queen dies move a frame of eggs over and they can raise a new queen. If you have only one hive there isn't much you can do when (when, not if) things go pear shaped.


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## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

emrude said:


> I still plan on only making mediums. 1x8s are cheaper than 1x12s.


I make all my own equipment too. I thought I'd share a tip. If you have the equipment to resaw and plane, then 2x8s and 2x12s are cheaper than 1x, and are usually better wood. I let the 2x sit for a couple of weeks and let it cup and warp. I cut to size + 1/2", then resaw it to 1" on the bandsaw. I then let those pieces sit again for a couple of days, then plane it down to 3/4" and cut to final size and finger joint it. The result is a nice flat board milled from stock that has already done its warping.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Used all mediums for a beehive. Ten frame equipment is fine. The trouble I had with 8 frame equipment makes the hive too tall. Your experience May differ.


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> You'll need four eight frame medium boxes for brood (the same volume as two ten frame deeps) and the rest for honey. I use eight frame mediums for everything. Much simpler.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#uniformframesize


Simpler but twice as expensive. Twice as many frames to manage. Twice as many boxes to store. Less contiguous brood area. More swarming. Tall wobbly stacks above head level. Can only buy packages not nucs.

"Much simpler" is to use 10 frame deeps for everything. That's the simple way.

The only thing going for 8 frame mediums is weight. And compared to 10 frame medium it's not a big difference. I think they are inferior in every other way that matters.

IMO you lift supers all day or have a bad back buy a forklift or work frame by frame. 8 frame mediums will kill your back all the same.


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## ritan1 (Nov 10, 2015)

I do want to point out that getting nucs in mediums has not proven to be a problem at all. I had a lot of options - Italians, Russians and Carnis all in mediums. In fact, in urban areas, 8 frame mediums are becoming the new standard. The weight does make a big difference as does the size - the center of gravity is easier to manage. So far, my bees have had no problems adapting to 8 frame mediums, in fact, they're my most productive this year.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

ritan1 said:


> I do want to point out that getting nucs in mediums has not proven to be a problem at all. I had a lot of options - Italians, Russians and Carnis all in mediums. In fact, in urban areas, 8 frame mediums are becoming the new standard. The weight does make a big difference as does the size - the center of gravity is easier to manage. So far, my bees have had no problems adapting to 8 frame mediums, in fact, they're my most productive this year.


How many hives? What does "productive" mean to you? Overwintered or are these newly installed bees?


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

All I've got are 2 all 8 frame medium hives, my starters, and I don't care for them much. You can go ahead and plan for at least 3 if not 4 boxes for brood, some tall hives and plenty of box manipulating to do basic checks. Terribly inefficient use of a queen for broodrearing and equipment in my unexpert opinion. I'm heading a different direction myself but try it with a couple tho you may be cool with it


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Space management is much more fine tuned with smaller boxes. The spring transition from nucs to 8 frame boxes is not so drastic. Also during that initial spring buildup when things are building but populations are still not so big, the bits of space added are not so drastic as well. That time of year I like them.

But I will concede the tower effect. Some of my overwintered nucs turned into 8 medium 8 frame boxes this year. If you took some of Bernard's management method, you could take 2 medium boxes and make an oversized frame to fit them for the brood area. You would have a maximum of 7 frames to inspect. In theory 2 8 frame mediums should be enough for brood with this system. For honey a medium is big enough.


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## ritan1 (Nov 10, 2015)

Three (City of Boston has strict limits) of my own and ten at the zoo. My ten deep didn't make it over the winter, one 8 medium did, but only one ten deep at the zoo made it. But I don't consider that an indicator either way, since it's such a small sample. I think you can make either configuration work, but you have to make adjustments according to your circumstances. Productive for me now means a balance of producing a decent amount of honey, staying strong and mite controlled, and overwintering. 

But that gets to my point. People manage their hives with different goals at different times (right now for me, keeping them alive is THE goal). And people have limitations on what they can do in their environment. I cannot lift 10 deeps safely, 8-mediums is my max. Urban beeks are finding great success with 8 mediums. So what is helpful for me isn't debating whether 10-deeps are better, because 10-deeps are just a no-go for me; it is how to manage my 8 mediums best. When I made the switch, I was concerned that it would be hard to find equipment and nucs for them, but I was pleasantly surprised to find no problems with either. So while there are legitimate reasons to choose one configuration over another, finding equipment or nucs in mediums is not a valid issue in my experience.


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## LittleTreeGuy (Aug 8, 2016)

So, to answer a few questions that I believe were directed at me...

1. Honey - I know I'll get more than a bottle or two. I just said I'd be happy with that much, lol. I was just saying that I'm not looking into this hobby to make money from honey, or to make money period. I learned a long time ago, none of my hobbies have ever made me money. I will be able to work and handle what honey is produced, however much that may be.

2. Hives - I plan on starting with two hives. Again, with my past hobbies (radio controlled airplanes and bonsai trees especially) I learned that two is better than one. There are always unforeseen issues that are beyond our control (or sometimes we make mistakes). I have been told by several established keepers so far that it's best to start with two. Several reasons including in the event I lose one, and also it's a good learning process... to compare the two.. with what's going on in one hive vs the other hive.

I really like the idea of the 8 frame mediums, so that is the way I'm leaning at this time. My main concern is the height of the hives. Where I plan to have them, there are all sorts of critters around, so I figure I'll be building a wooden base on top of a few cinder blocks. I do plan on adding a way to strap them down, but the overall height is my only concern. If a base is let's say 18", 3-4 brood boxes, and maybe 2-3 boxes for honey (I know this could be less, but for the sake of the conversation)... that could be a little over 5' from the ground to the top of the hive. I'm 5'8". I'm going to visit a few apiaries in the next few weeks, so seeing things first hand, and maybe getting to move some boxes around will give me a better feel for things. Obviously, picking the brains of the local guys and talking to the local club will also be taken into consideration.


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## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

J-
I get a lot of Lowe's reject bundles. The last one had 2- 2x6; 2-- 2x8;1--2x12 and one PT 4x4 the 2x were 12' long. I paid $15 for the bundle. I have no idea what I'm going to do with them yet.
The last job I did as a trim carpenter before I retired-- I sized and molded 5000 bf of cypress. I like cypress a lot--lived in New Orleans for 13 years. 
One of my thoughts for next year is to sell whole bee hives to local beekeepers. I would build from cypress, paint inside,out, install overwintered nucs and let them get going well. Then sell and set up. I started to crunch numbers, and I wouldn't have the volume of cypress to compete with a semi-local guy on the boxes. But all of the other parts I could make better. And charge more because they are getting whole hive.

Thanks,
Mary
I do like to make money from my hobbies. But at this point it is a hobby with perks. I haven't sold any honey. But I've given away 2 gallons and everyone I give it to are tickled pink. And I get to talk about bees.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I started rebuilding a couple years ago - weeding out the old 10 frame mediums and replacing them. Then I discovered 8 frame mediums. Rather than waste all those new 10 frame boxes, I went with a 3-10 frame brood chamber, and whatever 8's I need for honey supers.

A simple "outrigger board" on the bottom honey super is all that is needed. 









The only downside I see to all mediums is some additional cost. One back surgery, and a month or three of no heavy lifting would probably buy a LOT of boxes & frames .


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I wonder if the added forty percent more required actions withmediums over deeps isn't just as hard on ones back as deepbrood boxes. My penchant for experimentation has resulted in my haviing a dozen colonies in three mediums. They are just too much work. I seldom lift them off stack, just tilting upper on end after initial total inspection. They arent that heavy then. I move them with a hundred dollar dolley. I just find two deeps less work and expense than three mediums. With my wintering methods and my chinook climate, I am going more to wintering and producing a deep and a medium.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

From Walt Wright: http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/objections-to-the-double-deep/

"_Over the years, this maverick beekeeper has injected his dislike of the double deep wintering configuration in different articles, sometimes by innuendo, and sometimes by a flat statement. The intent of this article is to compile all those reasons into one place to help beginners make a rational decision when starting out. I am dismayed at the number of beginners who set out to fill two deeps on their first colony. I would like to head them off for the simple reason that once they start down that road, changing direction is much more difficult. This discussion is not directed to those beekeepers addicted to the double deep – they are not going to change – it’s all they know. If they see the following “problems” with the double deep (DD), they are considered normal and are taken in stride. I wouldn’t change either under those circumstances. The surge in lady beekeepers is all the more reason. The ladies, both old and young, can have less muscle power than that necessary to cope with a deep of honey. In today’s beekeeping, access to the brood chamber is mandatory.

--------------------------------------

As you can see from the above cryptic comments, most of my reservations about the double deep are offset by simply replacing the upper deep with two shallows. Costs a little more in up-front woodenware, but the benefits go on and on. I normally get nearly twice the honey in the tanks as standard management where colonies are overwintered in double deeps. This extra production is the result of yielding to colony instincts and preferences. In short: the double deep comes in third (bronze) behind all mediums (silver) and single deep and shallows (gold). Take it from there."_


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