# Langstroth to Top bar quandry



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

larrylwill said:


> I lost the bees due to the drought in NE Alabama.


Should read - I lost the bees due to *not feeding* them through the drought in NE Alabama.

Take this as a positive learning experience and ensure you do not allow your bees to starve to death through the next drought.

As to getting the bees onto the top bar combs, the bees will go where the brood is. So I would suggest placing 2 top bars between the brood combs of the nuc, with a lang comb of brood between them. Leave them there till the bees have put brood in them. Once that happens remove any lang frames that do not have brood, and move lang frames with brood to the outside, while putting more top bars in the middle, so the bees will not be inclined to raise more brood in the langs, and remove lang frames as brood hatches.

If the bees are not collecting nectar at this time, it will be nessecary to feed them sugar syrup to encourage them to build your top bar combs and raise brood in them.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

No it should read I was away for 6 weeks, all of July and some of Aug, I didn't see the problem until I got back. I immediately started feeding, I was able to save my neighbors hive who was a newbie but it was too late for mine. They never would have starved had I been home. Please don't criticize until you know the facts.

I can't intermix the top bar and the Lang frames, different length. The only thing I can do which I was concerning is to try and mount the lang frames between the top bars, but they will still be 90 degrees.


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## roddo27846 (Apr 10, 2017)

Crop and chop. Instructional videos are available for this technique.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

Just what I was looking for. I never would have found it with a name like crop and chop. I see there are more videos to watch.
Ill probably have to do it one frame at a time due to there all full of brood and eggs. I would hate to loose them now. Now to convince my wife, who is not a bee keeper to help. I don't think I can do it alone.
Thank you


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## friendlywithbears (Feb 6, 2017)

Typically I cut the frame sides and bottom off so there's only the top with comb attached, then I cut the comb and top of frame in half and attach each half to a top bar by rubber bands or tape. That way you don't lose the bottom corner triangles trying to cut the single lang frame down to a single top bar.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

larrylwill said:


> I can't intermix the top bar and the Lang frames, different length.


You can. Make them longer so they fit. When I'm selling bees to people who want to set up top bar hives, that's what I do, works fine. I just tack a couple of extensions on each end that can be removed later. 

I just set the hive up like that, give the bees a few weeks to get the top bar combs sorted, then assemble the top bar nuc and give it to them. 

Having the combs at 90 degree angles is not going to work any time soon if there is brood in the frames you don't want. 

Chopping combs will work, but the idea of a top bar hive is to have natural comb, so kind of defeats the purpose. However if that's the simplest way for you, whatever works!


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

I have been watching videos and most peoples Top Bar hive have frames longer than the Lang which is 19" My TPH frames are 17" So I have to cut down the Lang frame to 17" If its sunny tomorrow I will do it. I also like the Idea of cutting the frame in half. This seems a better way because I have a lot of capped brood and larvae and I wont loose as much this way.
thank you all


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## friendlywithbears (Feb 6, 2017)

Most people actually have top bar frames that are *shorter* than lang frames. I've seen 17", 15", 14" top bar lengths.

It's important to note that chopping is just a transition plan, and you'll probably want to rotate those chopped combs out as soon as your hive is strong enough to part with them. Especially if they have foundation.

Best of luck, it takes a little bit of courage, keep us posted with how it goes.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

thank you I will


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

larrylwill said:


> Last year I had 2 top bar hives, first try.
> (edit)
> What to do before I get a complete mess?


Sooooo... you have drawn TBH combs, great!
What you do not do in my very frank perspective is follow that "chop and crop" method of making a complete mess.
The pommy (Brit) video I first saw of that I thought " no wonder the Brits were run amok when the Vikings landed!!". 
What a slaughterhouse, from a bee's POV :-/

Here is what I am about to do, never done as yet but I see no bee reason why it will not succeed.
1. Make up a divider board with at least a 6"×6" penetration closed with plastic queen excluder material. A QE divider board.
2. Have your standard divider board at hand.
3. Block/plug the entrance.
4. Select your three best drawn TBH frames and place them
at the entrance end of the hive - if you have central entrances on the long side you may need two standard divider boards and two QE boards.
5.Place the queen excluder divider next, adjacent the last TBH frame.
6. Find the Lang frame with the queen on it and brush those bees into the TBH frames.
7. Find a Lang frame with capped brood and some pollen stores and brush those bees into the TBH frames.
8. Place a temporay cover board over the TBH frames. A thin sheet of ply and a half-brick should hold them in while you work.
9. Take the remaining Lang frames and place them at 90' to the QE divider, butting the topbar right onto the QE divider. I am going to add a joiner bar across the Lang frames abutting the TBH sides so the frames cannot fall over from the perpendicular. YMMV
10. Place the standard TBH divider at the finish of the Lang frames.
Mine is 1200mm (3ft)long and 250mm 10")wide so I may get two rows of 5 Langs in there, hopefully.
11. Remove the temporary cover and close the lid, wait maybe 2 (two) hours.
12. Open the entrance.

Inspect (lift lid and look only) after 24hours to be certain queen is being attended to in the new brood chamber. I have done transfers of broken comb this way with no problems so I expect the same will happen, and she will be hard at work laying within 24 hours.
As the TBH comb fills, add more TBH and remove now empty Langs or at least once brood in Langs has hatched, your choice.
I expect to go pickup a Lang this weekend so roughly we should be running in parallel if you start your transfer soon.

Cheers.

Bill


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

sounds like a good way to separate the bees from the Lang frames without cutting them. However I have no excluder. I would have to order one.
This method preserves all the brood, larvae eggs and stores if it works. Keep us informed.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

larrylwill said:


> sounds like a good way to separate the bees from the Lang frames without cutting them. However I have no excluder. I would have to order one.
> This method preserves all the brood, larvae eggs and stores if it works. Keep us informed.


errrr... your TBH came in a flatpack, ready to assemble?

Regards.
Bill


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

My top bar came in scrap boards from my garage and plans off youtube.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

He is missing the point that your a TB beekeeper and don't have a plastic excluder sitting around that you could cut down....
Chop and crop is the long proven way, the sooner you make a break from the lang frames the better and the dawn comb in the frames is of no use to you other wise.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

Today I plan to remove the sides and bottom bar and cut them in half and screw them to a top bar. Just waiting for the sun to go down some more. We just had rain and its 87% humidiy with a heat index of 87.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

I just finished doing the deed, removing the sides and bottom, cutting the wax down the middle cutting the wires, sawing the top of the frame in half and screwing them to a top bar. I made up the top bars in advance with 2 screws in each. It took about 5 minuets per frame, but wow bees everywhere. Now I have 8 new top bar frames with 1/2 lang foundation and about 6 full top bar frames with some drawn comb. They were drawing comb on the top bars I had in there. I looked before I took the frames but could not find the queen, I hope I just missed her and also hop I didn't squash her. I will give them tomorrow to get back to business and re-organised if its sunny tomorrow I will look again Sunday and look for her again.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Let them settle a few days, then check for queen cells in 5 to 7 days. If none, and there are eggs, you have a queen.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

Yea I figured Sunday was too soon, but I have a real problem seeing eggs through a veil wearing trifocals anymore.
Any tricks?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

About the best chance is look at the comb with the sun behind your shoulder shining right into the cells onto the eggs, and wear the best reading glasses you got. Choose a dark comb, mid brood nest. If still no joy, just have to wait a bit longer till those eggs hatch and see if there are larvae.

But queen cells or the lack of will give it away.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

msl said:


> He is missing the point that your a TB beekeeper and don't have a plastic excluder sitting around that you could cut down....
> (edit)


Nope.
It comes with the territory (TBH) that an enthusiast needs to own some construction skills. As the fellow baulked at building a custom exclusion zone into a divider - a few dozen holes should be sufficient - it would be quite 'safe' to assume the box came as a flatpack, screws and driver supplied.
I am pleased I was wrong.
Not so impressed with opting out to "crop and chop" as that method is both destructive to the colony *and* counterproductive in gaining an understanding of honeybee culture, per se.

Cheers.

Bill


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

larrylwill said:


> Yea I figured Sunday was too soon, but I have a real problem seeing eggs through a veil wearing trifocals anymore.
> Any tricks?


Two of - that work.
1. Set the frame in the perpendicular to shoot a pic, flash forced to "on". Then use the zoom function in "view" to enlarge any particular cell.
2. Brush bees off the frame to then take it inside to a place were sufficient artificial light can be found. I use one of these:

http://www.telesightmagnifiers.com/id97.html

Cheers.

Bill


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## roddo27846 (Apr 10, 2017)

larrylwill said:


> Yea I figured Sunday was too soon, but I have a real problem seeing eggs through a veil wearing trifocals anymore.
> Any tricks?


You sound like me. LOL. Keep us updated on how this works out.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

Had I had an excluder I would have went your way. I agree chop and crop is destructive but I already had the hive for 5 days and didnt want to wait another week or more due to the holiday for a plastic excluder.
I built 2 Top bar hives both with observation windows and peaked tin tops with legs. One out of cypress that I had laying around and sealed clear with a Red Peaked tin roof and one out of pine painted green with a blue roof.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

@larryIwill.
Perhaps my suggestion did not translate????
"As the fellow baulked at building a custom 
exclusion zone into a divider - a few dozen
holes should be sufficient"....
Why wait? A section of light ply, and a 4.5mm drillbit., you could have an excluder zone built in less time than it takes to post any reply!

This fellow went the long way, I assume his is intended as a permanent device.
https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=25976

Still, that journyman is a beekeeper, in my book 

Cheers.

Bill


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

I never thought of building one since everyone I have seen had elongated holes. Had you said that in the beginning I would have went that way.
BTW you can address me as Larry instead of the fellow.
thank you


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

eltalia said:


> Perhaps my suggestion did not translate????


I don't think it was a translation issue 
you said


eltalia said:


> Make up a divider board with at least a 6"×6" penetration closed with plastic queen excluder material.


when he said he didn't have one you chose to do a little smack talking instead of giving a drill size and saying to pop a few holes in the divider


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

msl said:


> I don't think it was a translation issue


Not at this screen, no.
I read and understood _quite_ clearly.



> you said
> when he said he didn't have one you chose to do a little smack talking instead of giving a drill size and saying to pop a few holes in the divider


errrr.. so you own sole rights to same?

The forum door intro reads "Top Bar Hive Forum"... *not* "Beekeeping 101".
As said, TBH by nature of that 'style' requires skills, it also follows owning those skills implies an inherent gene of intuition exists.
Without that any help/ideas would need to be way longer than I and many others would be prepared to type out and post.
... enough said on that.

Why your post I can only surmise, yet I do know this from experience amongst "chop and crop" devotees... *any* persuasion to cease and desist this destructive practice is met with windy opposition.
Maybe you are "just sayin'" for the sake of putting some life in the thread, yet one does wonder if more diversion from my original post is what any "smack" hopes to reset the agenda to.

Alternatives to C&C exist, why continue with a messy destructive method?

Regards.


Bill


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

larrylwill said:


> I never thought of building one since everyone I have seen had elongated holes.


Many choose the gal.wire type. I do not use them as they rust in storage at my locale.



> Had you said that in the beginning I would have went that way.


Point noted... I shall adjust my notes to include such micro-tuition.



> BTW you can address me as Larry instead of the fellow.
> thank you


No worries, Larry.

Regards.

Bill


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

This forum does not have a Top bar 101 section, nor a beginners Top bar section, only this one. Converting Lang frames to a top bar would not garner the response in any other section of this site. This is the Top bar forum and Im pretty sure other Top bar people have had this problem at some time.
Im also pretty sure most people do not build there queen excluder as buying one cost so little. Top Bar supplies are not for sale in many places.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?308893-Why-top-bar-hives-don-t-require-queen-excluder

If you wish to insert a Top bar 101 forum section I will be the first to join.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

Fine Larry.
Is it okay with you if I just go and wrap me fannyscratchers around a cold beer? Plainly I am knocking on wood here.

(no puns were damaged or enslaved in this post)

Regards.

Bill


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

eltalia said:


> Alternatives to C&C exist, why continue with a messy destructive method?


Because most of the methods often lead to secondary issues and problems such a cross comb mess.
The C&C alows you to utilize the draw comb in the nuc and does not require any special equipment to be fabricated or bought.
I think Larry did a bang up job with 1/2 frame and screwing them in idea as a way to maximize the resources used


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## friendlywithbears (Feb 6, 2017)

Larry it sounds like it went well. I've often found that after leaving the lang frames perpendicular in the hive body for a few days the queen will choose to move into the correctly oriented top bar combs before I even get to chopping the frames, maybe because they are more empty and she is looking for good laying ground. Hopefully that's what happened with you as well.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

You could be right, I never look at them. 90% were empty. I wont look again until end of the week. Although I do look in the viewing every day and they are adding wax to the chopped frames although it looks like there rounding the ends with comb.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

I looked in the hive yesterday I still could not find the queen but I didn't spend a lot of time looking. I do have capped brood and larvae. I did not see any eggs or queen cells, again I didn't look closely. I think I have larvae on a frame that was not chopped. I was in a hurry to remove the temp bars, straighten and move the frames also remove the temp bars I put in to hold the Lang frames. I will have another look tomorrow. They are pulling comb and storing honey from the sugar water Im feeding them. I think I will forgo the feeding for a few days since they have consumed more than a gallon since I put the nuc in the top bar. The chopped frames look really good, they have waxed over the joints and are filling out the ends.

On another note, I put a piece of black plastic pvc over the screened bottom board and almost every time I lowered the trap door I have a dozen beetles on it which I dumped to the ground and stomped them dead. So far more than 50.


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## roddo27846 (Apr 10, 2017)

Better trap out the beetles or you could have issues. Swiffer sheets work well and the beetle blaster style traps work too. We lost a package to them this spring. The females can lay a thousand eggs and they can really boom in a short while. If I found fifty of them in a hive I would be very concerned. Running oil traps under screened bottoms is best but I don't know how you would do that with a top bar.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

Im in the process or adding oil under the hive. I built a 1" spacer the size of the bottom of the hive body for the 2 long and 1 short side. I have some black solid pvc board Im gluing 1/2" sides on it, so I can slide into the one open end of the spacer. Next I will remove the hinge from the swing bottom and nail up the spacer then re apply the hinge to cover the bottom and the spacer. Put some oil in it and slide it into place. I hope to get it finished this week.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

thanks for raising this and the replies; best listing of options that I've seen for converting lang to tbh! Personally, I could not crop and chop; but I understand the reasoning and I am sure it could work. Just not how I want to add stress to beekeeping! here is another option that I went for to go from lang to TBH: build a tanzanian hive (essentially a long langstroth deep, holds 25 bars or frames). I am using bars though - much cheaper. But less convenient!


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

Yes but its too late for those that already bought or built a TBH and need bees.


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## friendlywithbears (Feb 6, 2017)

Crop and chop certainly seems like it is stressful, but once you get into it it's really not so bad. Just make sure you have everything ready, know where the queen is, and for added calmness brush all the bees off the frames before cutting them. Once you do a few it's really not a big deal.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

yep, It all depends on your point of view, my 1st year I did 2 cutouts to get "free" bees. After that a little chop and crop is no big thing. 
If some one is squeamish about it, topbar may be a poor choice, just weight till its a hot day and you get a comb colaspe and it domonos 5+bars


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## friendlywithbears (Feb 6, 2017)

Knock on wood, have not had that drastic a collapse, and do not look forward to the day.


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

roddo, you can add oil pans under the screen. I use the plastic frame material you would use on lattice. The plastic makes a good bearing surface for pans to slide on. slide in/out on wide side, thin cookie sheet about an inch deep. Build like drawers. IMHO the Long Hive is much more user friendly. You can use bars or frames and make it all compatible to Langstroth deep/medium. I use a 48" deep long hive and use both bars and frames. It makes 2 really nice nucs, one in each end.


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## roddo27846 (Apr 10, 2017)

Hey, Murdock, you are right up the road! Good to see others from the area interested in the bees too.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

My hive is doing great. All chopped frames are filled out. New wax pulled on other frames.


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

Yesterday I added the last 4 frames to the top bar box. All frames except the new ones are pulled and mostly filled, honey at the top and brood or pollen in the rest. I do seem to be loosing a lot of pollen through the bottom screen though.


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## Dwarvencheif (Aug 11, 2017)

I'll be following this post with interest. The guy I'm getting my bees from only work in Langstroth  I asked if I could drop off a top bar nuc but he says his system is rather strict... He is willing to help me move the bees in to my hive. I'll be looking forward to the experience


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## larrylwill (Apr 4, 2016)

Here is a google link. I did 4 frames myself and it only took about 5 min per frame. I shook and brushed the bees into the top bar box. I did not use hedge shears I just wiggled the bottom frame support off. Then pulled the sides. Then cut the comb being careful to cut the wires which mine had. Some don't and some is plastic which I would think is much harder to cut. Then I took a saber saw and cut the top bar to size which I marked. Then used wallboard screws through the top bar into the cut lang frame. 3 is enough. Looks need and works. I only lost a min of brood.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cro...e..69i57j0l5.879j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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