# Suppose post-swarm you find 10-20 capped queen cells...



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

That is what I did pre swarm and post swarm. My results this year have been.
Pre Swarm where they are makign cells under both swarm impulse and emergence impulse on average 19.5 cells per hive for a total of 249 cells. plus we grafted additional cells for a grand total of 287 cells in all.

Emergence form cells was poor. i suspect due to weather conditions. ONly 60% of the cells had virgins emerge.

Virgin introduction was even worse. In the first two weeks and approx 80 queens introduced only 2 where accepted. after that acceptance and mating rate rose to 50%

IN all we got 70 to 80 queens. nearly half sold as virgins and the other half sold as mated or in nucs.

Mated queens came from nuc which then made more queen cells. we now have 82 queen cells in compartments. I am anticipating as many as 60 mated queens. we introduced cells to the compartments rather than virgin queens.

An additional issue. although small mating nucs work to get queens mated. they do not work well to get colonies started. Build up of a colony form just a hand full of bees is very slow and additional queens are lost.

Don't expect more than half the cells to actually produce mated queens and don't expect all of them to survive unless you boost their population to more like a 5 frame nuc of bees.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Thank you, Daniel Y. That answers a question I had. The only hive I'm not seeing a queen or larvae in still has 2 queen cells hanging. The other 3 hives are well past that stage onto capped brood. I was wondering whether all queen cells hatch. I'm fairly certain these have no excuse to still be there, with no queen, so I can assume those 2 queen cells will not hatch and I need to go to Plan B, either put new eggs/brood in there and start over, or combine. 

So how much spare equipment do you find you need, with 287 queen cells? Where did you put them?

I put my queen cells right into new splits, so there was no introduction necessary - the queen hatched right there among them. That probably helps with the acceptance rate. Of course, with the queen cells, I also put in a couple frames of honey, pollen, and probably one good frame of capped brood in each split.


----------



## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Suppose you find those capped queen cells on 5 or 6 or so different frames.
> 
> Do you start splits with all those frames?
> 
> ...


We like to start splits when we find an abundance of queen cells. I agree, it is a waste to let all the other queens be killed. 

I run both deeps and mediums. And have accumulated/made enough extra equipment to have several nuc noxes on hand. With the eight frame mediums you have an instant nuc box. 

As far as running out of space, nucs will hopefully run out of space quickly. But, you can always super the nuc. Nucs, in my opinion, are a great investment. 

Shane


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I will know alot more in a couple of days abotu how much of a difference cell introduction may have made. We start checking the latest 82 cells tomorrow.

As for equipment after loosing 40% as cells alone it left us with roughly 200 cells remaing. of those that did emere 32 where sold as virgins and not introduced to mating compartments. Leaving us less than 170 cels to actuly put in compartments. In reality there was a bit of a turn over in these compartmetns. goign back adn finding virgins lost etc so we where able to get by with 26 deep 10 frame boxes that where divided into 4 compartments each. holding a total of 104 queens. We had even more boxes ready they jstu where not needed.

We made up nealry 40 nucs int eh end and teh remainder of queens where either sold or lost in one way or another. I have lost track of just how much equipment we have all together.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Well, if you made up nearly 40 nucs, I'd venture to guess you are making these nuc boxes and not necessarily buying them, because that would run into some big bucks.


----------



## Wolfer (Jul 15, 2012)

I don't know how handy you are but I made some of the D Coates nucs this year from OSB at a cost of 2.50 each. I built these just for selling nucs. Ones you plan to keep should be made from plywood.

I'm sure the OSB would last a few years, more if it was painted.
My personal rule of thumb is to have at least one nuc for every hive I have. I also always have four or five extra hives.


----------



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

If you need extra tops and bottoms, you can make them out of exterior 3/4" plywood, not treated. You can use 3/4" strips on the bottoms and add a cleat on each end of the tops to keep them from sliding off the top of the hive. Put some exterior paint on them and you're ready to go. The 3/4" strips raise the hive or nuc up off the bottom enough to use standard entrance reducers. With a couple of coats of paint they should last a couple of years.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I run all 8 frame med so when I need a nuc I grab any ol empty box. For top boards and bottom boards I have never used anything other that a piece of plywood with 3/4 in shims on the bottom and a brick on top


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Well, if you made up nearly 40 nucs, I'd venture to guess you are making these nuc boxes and not necessarily buying them, because that would run into some big bucks.


So far we have made all our nuc boxes but it does not really save us a lot in the way of money. Deep 10 frame boxes we have stopped making and have been buying them this year. We will be dividing a bunch of 10 frame boxes to use as nucs this year also.

As of last year all the money comes from the bees.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Harley Craig said:


> I run all 8 frame med so when I need a nuc I grab any ol empty box. For top boards and bottom boards I have never used anything other that a piece of plywood with 3/4 in shims on the bottom and a brick on top


So bottom entrance only?

Will the boards make it thru winter if needed?


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

You might want to keep some division screens on hand, sometimes called double screen board, for this use.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

odfrank said:


> You might want to keep some division screens on hand, sometimes called double screen board, for this use.


I can't quite grasp how this works yet: http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/10-Frame-Double-Screen-Board/productinfo/694/


----------



## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

take hive 1. remove top cover/inner cover.
put the division screen in place. 
open the entrance you want (maybe a top side entrance).

take the box you are using for a nuc. put it on the division screen -- they use the entrance in the screen you just opened. 

put your covers on top of the box you are using for a nuc.


----------



## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

When you get to making your own nucs D.Coates style, buy a sheet of Smart Sideing, it`s like T- 111 but made of osb and painted already. Has a 30 year warranty don`t swell like osb I paint the cut ends and edges, then paint the whole box. 2 years on like 30 or so nucs and 25 minis. More to make this winter,,,,,,,,,Pete


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I made up over 20 of the D.Coates nucs last fall. Low price but takes time to build. The time is fine a certain times of the year such as winter. this time of year I have to consider how much I can do. We just made up anther 20 deep boxes and are waiting for the fraems to get here. They where back ordered. We are starting to make the transition from making our own to buying it ready made but needing to be assembled.

The OSB nucs are intended to be sold. Better than cardboard and lower priced as well. Not certain how it works out once you factor in the labor. Labor for me right now is measured in "do I have time". I will say the D.Coates nucs are about as easy as it gets. even cardboard nucs need to be assembled. Right now it would mean figuring out how to get some 40 sheets of OSB home from the hardware store.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Getting the sheets home should be the easy part. If you are ordering 40 they should deliver them.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Are Coates nucs always deeps and 5 frames? I only use medium frames.

Actually, I think I'd tend more to just using one 10-frame medium super (which is all I have) as a nuc for splits. But good ideas about plywood boards for a top and bottom, I can put a slotted shim on bottom and top for entrances and ventilation, and strips on the bottom of the top board to keep it in place were it to get windy. That sounds easy.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

No reason you couldn't make a Coates nuc medium, but you would probably want to make two boxes. A five frame medium would get cramped quickly. If you made it more than one box high you would probably want to add a rim to the edge of the boxes to make it wider to sit on top of another box and to help prevent the plywood from bowing. 

The idea behind the Coates nucs is to maximize the number of boxes from sheets of plywood.


----------



## dtompsett (Feb 2, 2010)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Are Coates nucs always deeps and 5 frames? I only use medium frames.


If you've got the equipment (table saw, skill saw) to cut the wood, make some nucs. My experience is deeps, but mediums just means you have to be a little faster with providing space. 

I make my nuc boxes like this:
-seperate bottom (1/2" plywood, 1x2 rim w/ 2x1" holes drilled in it... use a large cork to plug holes for transportation). 
-5 frame deep nuc (1/2" sides, 3/4" ends... use a dado blade on the table saw to cut a frame rest and rabbet for the sides to sit in. Drill 1" holes in ends, screen on insides w/ hardware cloth. This allows ventilation when you cork the entrance, and you can cork the vent holes when the entrance is open to limit excessive airflow. I drilled on an upward angle to prevent rain coming in the hole). Use a dado blade on the table saw to cut a handhold in the 3/4" plywood. Easiest to cut once the box is assembled, set up some stops, sit box on edge, lower down onto running blade, slide 2", lift off. 
-migratory style top cover (3/4" plywood, 2 strips of 1x3 w/ groove/rabbet cut for plywood to seat in). My only problem with these covers is there is no extra space above to feed a patty. My next batch may have a rim.

This is all deeps... the initial timing for mediums is the same, but you'll run out of space faster when she starts laying.
A strong nuc (starting with 3+ frames) and a queencell, will still take ~25 days to get a laying queen (from time of egg laying/grafting). Popping a capped cell in there means ~14 days till she starts laying. A chunk of your initial brood will have hatched, opening up space for the new queen to lay. 

I started some nucs with 3 frames brood, and some with 1 frame brood, all given a grafted cell set to hatch 2-3 days later... the 3-frame nucs took ~1 month to get a laying queen and be very strong, to the point I stacked a 2nd box on some. the 1-frame nucs took ~1.5 months to get out to all 5 frames being mostly drawn. 

The big advantage to removable bottoms on a nuc... you can easily stack another box on. When some of my nucs got very strong, but I wasn't ready to sell or move into deeps yet... I put another box on. Give them a week with a strong flow and nearly 5 frames are drawn and queen is laying in 3 of them. I just moved them into 10F deeps last week... 5 frames in each deep, plus drawn comb surrounding. Keeps core temps close, since we had cool weather forecast for this week. 

If you're building it yourself, must modify dimensions to suit what you want.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you start splits with all those frames? 

I like to make a split for each frame. I put it with a frame of honey and a shake of bees in a two frame nuc and get a queen out of it...


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> I like to make a split for each frame. I put it with a frame of honey and a shake of bees in a two frame nuc and get a queen out of it...


You don't even put a frame of brood in there?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A frame with a queen cell on it has brood on it... Yes, there is a frame of brood (with one or more queen cells) and a frame of honey and the bees from another frame of brood shaken in.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Oh. I didn't notice that, but I guess that makes sense, brood would be on the same frame as the queen cell(s).


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

We checked 42 of the 82 cells we placed in 2 frame compartments yesterday. we got all of 9 queens so far. That is a 21.5% mated queen rate from cell to mated queen. we found over half a dozen cells that did not even emerge. there could have been more there was just not enough cell left to determine if they emerged or not.

That is a worse rate than we got with virgin queen introduction.

One of our problems it seems to me may be keeping bees in the mating compartments. Some compartments we find all the bees dead, I am not sure what is going on with that. If any of these loses are still due to robing then I am not sure we can stop robbing. I am also starting to vote against a queen castle in favor of individual 2 frame boxes.

For now I am thinking we simply will not be able to rear queens and get them mated in this location.

So far the best results we have gotten was a 50% return and that was this time last year on a batch of 12 queens. For this entire year we have attempted to mate something in the area of 155 queens. and the first 113 where introduced as virgins. So it eliminates any emerged cells factor. In the spring we had a 24.8% mating rate. 

At this point I am not even sure I will spend the time it would take to check the other 40 compartments. Without something closer to a 50 to 75% mated queen rate it is simply not worth the time effort and expense it is taking.

Poor queen cell quality may have been a factor. these cells where all made by bees that where suddenly made queenless.

Weather was not even almost a possible factor. we have had perfect weather for the entire life of these queens. 

This afternoon we will graft 45 larva. I am now thinking of making it more like 90. We will see if better quality cells make any difference. Otherwise I will return to emerging cells in an incubator becasue I cannot afford to waste frames of bees on cells that do not produce virgin queens.

Final idea I have is to go to II and get queens that lay eggs long enough to be superseded. Results can't be much worse than I am getting now.

Otherwise it is pretty clear to me to save your mating compartment time and frames of bees and emerge virgins in an incubator. it so far is not making a bit of difference. Plus we can offer virgin queens for sale if they are in an incubator when they emerge.

We started with 23 queens in the spring. increased to having at most 52. due to sales or losses we fell back to 28 and as of right now have 37.

The good news is that with such heavy losses of virgin queens we have plenty of frames of bees to make up 5 frame nucs for the survivors.

One of my issues is I can make a 4 fold increase of my apiary without all this queen rearing stuff. Just split off a 5 frame nuc give them young brood and let them requeen themselves.

at this rate I will have to make 850 grafts to get the 170 queens I am looking to get.

I am loosing bees faster than the queens that do survive can replace them.

In all I am quickly reaching the point I am saying mating compartments do not work. not here at least. bees will not stay in them or queens do not survive in them.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Daniel, is there anyone else in your area raising queens that you could consult with?


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Shannon, No. One of the most common comments I get is that I am the only person rearing queens in this area.

I am thinking I will have to find a different location myself. That was suggested by some last spring when I posted those results.

I am already making the list of things to do. we start the next attempt tonight. I was planning to make 45 grafts. it is now 180. I will end up with the queens I want or not have any bees left.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

NewbeeInNH said:


> So bottom entrance only?
> 
> Will the boards make it thru winter if needed?


Starting out yes when they get bigger I give them a top entrance by placing some wedges under one end of the lid and then choke off the bottom entrance to just a couple of bees wide boards last through winter just fine especially if you paint


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Daniel Y: This is way too elementary I'm sure, but there is adequate ventilation and adequate food for them, right? I'm not sure how compartments work. Hope you get some pointers here.

All in all, I am a bit supportive of having a hive that swarms now. From my swarm hive I got a lot of good queen cells to make more hives. So a swarmed hive turned into 3 hives so far. If that hive had not swarmed, I would not have gotten the nice queen cells to make more.

Maybe not all swarming is bad news. Right now I'm more focused on growing the apiary (tired of being held hostage to overwintering, and tired of buying new bees every spring) than on getting honey.


----------



## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

NewbeeInNH said:


> The only thing is: does everyone keep enough equipment around to all of a sudden throw together 4 or 5 new hives? I don't have a nuc box, I just used a medium when I found queen cells recently, and that worked fine
> Nuc boxes will only last so long before they run out of space, right? Doesn't seem worth it to invest in nuc boxes.


I recently got about 15 queen cells from a cutout I did. I made nucs with the cells. Cells were usually found in groups of 3 or so.










I rubber banded a frame like the above in each of the 4 nucs i made. 

Yes i keep 4 or so nuc boxes around. I use them for swarm captures, and or splits. Basically exactly for the above reason. I happen to have enough wooden ware for 4-6 more large hives in addition but that was because i bought a bunch of wooden ware several years ago.

As of today 2 of the nucs are still kinda week. one is strong and the 4th didnt make it.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

All this brings up the storage issue.

Beekeepers need places to store oh, about 10 extra hives, you never know when you'll need them. So figure 4 boxes per hive, that's about 40 boxes hanging out in the garage or wherever, plus frames.

Is there a support group for spouses of beekeepers?


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I made up a bunch of nucs last year and put them out as swarm traps. I had to pull a few of the 5 frame nucs in this spring for use. At least this way they get some use.


----------



## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

shannonswyatt said:


> I made up a bunch of nucs last year and put them out as swarm traps. I had to pull a few of the 5 frame nucs in this spring for use. At least this way they get some use.


That's an excellent idea.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Daniel Y: This is way too elementary I'm sure, but there is adequate ventilation and adequate food for them, right? I'm not sure how compartments work. Hope you get some pointers here.
> 
> All in all, I am a bit supportive of having a hive that swarms now. From my swarm hive I got a lot of good queen cells to make more hives. So a swarmed hive turned into 3 hives so far. If that hive had not swarmed, I would not have gotten the nice queen cells to make more.
> 
> Maybe not all swarming is bad news. Right now I'm more focused on growing the apiary (tired of being held hostage to overwintering, and tired of buying new bees every spring) than on getting honey.


Feeding yes. Ventilation surprisingly may be part of the problem. at the same time all the compartments are the same and one thing that is starting to stand out is that the more populated compartments seem to be the more successful. Maybe only to a degree but I do know I have more hope while checking when I see quite a few bees in a compartment. I do know I look at the queen castles at times and wonder if they need more ventilation though.

They are kept under a covered area so they do not get direct sunlight. It is something like a car port sort of cover. Plenty of air movement but not directly in the sun. Ventilation is provided by the fact the lids are bee tight but not air tight.

I am thinking of removing the bottoms and replacing it with wire window screen reinforced by covering it with 1/2 inch mesh hardware cloth. Choice of material has more to do with what I have laying around.


----------

