# The making of a frame, with side discussion of frame rests, bee space, and Langstroth



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

That took a lot of experience and thought to compile that data! This definitely belongs as a sticky. I have seen a lot of self made frames that barely had any of the critical relationships correct. It is thought that the bees will fix it: they will, but you will pay the bill!

Thanks,


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

(tongue in cheek)...
I go to a lumber yard and have for years because I'm a carpenter. If I pick up some lumber I can get SPF (spruce, pine, or fir) 2x's and then there's yellow pine. 1x's...I can get pine or cedar...oak. 
Yellow pine rots so fast that I'd never attempt to use it on a bee hive. So I'm left with SPF or ordering special wood which is costly I bet. Never asked for spruce lumber before. Maybe in Alabama they have mills that produce spruce lumber but Illinois? I don't think so. 

Lately have been building hives and found out real quick that (believe it or not) Home Depot has very high quality lumber marked as "common".

GREAT THREAD! Keep up the posts like this. 46 years experience...I'm all ears buddy.


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

Would you talk more about bottom bars? I'm running foundationless, so the concerns may be different....


I've basically been cutting my bottom bars to 1/2 x 1/2 x 17 7/32 (And cutting a notch in the endbar to match) rather than rabbet/notching the ends of each bar (so the bar is totally straight, no narrower section where it slides into the frame)- the bees don't seem to mind. They build a little more comb around the bottom bar, but I kind of think that increases attachment strength. Its a little more work to put them together (but saves an equivalent amount of time cutting) - am I gonna cause myself some sort of problem here?


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Interesting read Dar. Whatever happened to the pointed side of end bars? Seems like there was less frame sticking with that design.


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

Great and interesting read! Thanks for the information.


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## Scott Gough (Dec 10, 2015)

Very well written. It is hard to explain dimensions and math in a written forum post. You did an excellent job of that.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> I go to a lumber yard and have for years because I'm a carpenter.


You go to the forest to find bears and to the seashore to find salt water surf, so the natural habitat of carpenters is lumber yards and places where you hear a lot of hammers striking nails.



> Maybe in Alabama they have mills that produce spruce lumber


 2 X 6 x 8 is most commonly available here in spruce. I can cut perfectly good end bars from a 2 X 6 given that the grain and growth rings are tight. I cull any center cuts, excessive knots, or with high rosin content.



> Would you talk more about bottom bars?


Bottom bars are the least demanding part of a frame, you can make them just about any way and the bees will work with them. I have one complaint about commercial frames which is that most of them have 5/16 by 5/16 strips for divided bottom bars. This is too thin! The only key measurement with bottom bars is making sure they are a bee space above the next frame down. In other words, make sure the end bars are cut right!



> Whatever happened to the pointed side of end bars?


This is called a propolis cutter and it does indeed reduce the amount of sticking together as compared to flat cuts. I am building 11 1/4 frames with a propolis cutter on one side. It is also convenient because the cuts to make the propolis cutter happen to be perfect for flattening out the profile of slightly bowed end bar blanks. The reason many manufacturers today do not make propolis cutters on the end bars is because the cuts are very time consuming and require highly precise settings on the cutting equipment. I'm picky enough about my cuts that an end bar must be + or - 1/64th of an inch of exactly 1 1/4 inches wide. The wood will shrink and expand with the seasons and the weather so I want them to be as close as possible to the right size.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

OP: Thank you, Fusion - that was a fair amount of effort! 

I've taken to "re-purposed" lumber. My QE's and such are are former Cherry, Hickory & 0ak etc. furniture. It can be had for a fraction of the cost when you open your eyes.

Today's pine is almost a disgrace. 

"Re-purposed" wood is the way to go!


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## Arpolis (Aug 26, 2013)

Repurposed wood is about all I have used recently. Here are some frames whipped up from old fencing that was replaced.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Fusion - what a great write up - No joke -WELL DONE


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

The reason for using pine (or similar softwood) for frames is that most other woods will split when nailed in those sizes, and it's usually a lot cheaper. Hardwoods work fine so long as they don't split, but are also heavier.

Making frames can be rather fiddly, but if you spend the time to make adequate fixtures isn't all that much work and real 3/8" end bars and bottom bars make very much stronger frames. I made about 500 this winter, will probably be doing that much more next year as I have some buddies who are expanding their apiaries and I have the room, equipment, and heat. 

Peter


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Thought I would toss this old thread back to the top to see if anyone can get some use out of it this spring.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

My life is full of these kind of coincidences - for as some you already know, I'm currently trawling through the archives of 'Gleanings in Bee Culture', and just last night I came across an early discussion regarding frame design - in particular issues regarding the bottom bar. The guys had found that too small a cross section caused the bees to draw comb onto that bar - which is perfect - but then proceeded past it, attaching their comb onto the top bar below - which ain't exactly ideal.

Conversely, a wide bottom bar produced two problems: firstly the bees would only draw comb to within a 'bee-space' of it, or cut away foundation (if that had been used), thus leaving a gap between bottom bar and comb. Secondly, any dead bees falling off the comb during winter would tend to lodge at the bottom of the comb, whereas with the thinner bottom bar they had always fallen free, and could then easily be cleared from the bottom board by means of a scraper. A compromise width was thus chosen.

One feature which was popular back in the 1870-1880's was to extend the bottom bar such that it jutted out by (say) an eighth of an inch on both sides, in an attempt to provide some resemblance of a bee-space towards the bottom of the frame, even with those who's shape had become distorted over time. A quarter of an inch, although more ideal, would most likely have caused jamming. Such bottom bar extensions are, of course, not something we see today.

One solution being offered to solve the 'comb to bottom-bar gap' problem was to have reversible frames. One design featured side-bars with a long central slot. This slot housed a half-height bar connected to a pin hinge at the centre of the slot, with double-sided frame lugs fixed to it's distal end, such that the bar could be swung outwards and upwards, presenting a lug at either end of the frame as required. 

It never caught on. 
LJ


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## AG Fresh (Jun 10, 2015)

Very informative post! I'm looking to build my boxes, migratory lids, and screened bottom boards this year but may have to look harder at making frames too now. Would the OP or anyone else be able to further the discussion and post their exact measurements for their home built Langstroth boxes, lids, bottoms etc? Otherwise I'll be mimicking kelleysbees and hope the beespace adds up!


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It is covered fairly well in the "build it yourself" area. Frames can be made quite a few ways. Betterbee comes very close to the form and fit of the frames I cut.

https://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/

https://beesource.com/product-reviews/wood-frames-for-the-langstroth-hive/


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## mcmartin (Mar 28, 2019)

Thank you for this information. I have 2 home made hives. I made 20 6 1/8" wood honey super frames with grooved bottom bars and wedge tops. I used wired beeswax foundation and support pins in the frames. I extracted my first honey crop and blew out the first four frames I spun. Then I slowed down and got through the rest of the frames until the last set, when I got impatient and blew out another one. The frames blew out from the bottom. I decided on the following changes for 2019. First, there were 4 frames that the bees hadn't drawn a significant amount of foundation on. I wired those - 2 holes on each side and 2 horizontal wires. Then I decided to leave 11 frames alone, they have comb drawn out and are intact. I know I can extract from them if I take my time. My question is about the five I have to play around with, since they are now empty. It seems like the split bottom frame is less subject to blowouts than the grooved bottom. Do you agree with this? If yes, can I change to a split bottom without changing the end bars? From the pictures I looked at, it looks like a split bottom frame has about 1/8" gap between the bottom sections. In other words, a split bottom functions like a deep groove. Is there more to it than that? If it is only a deep groove, can I create a split bottom frame by cutting through the groove I already have, leaving 3/8" on each side uncut (the part inserted in the end bar?) My objective is to extract with more speed with minimum work retrofitting the frames.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Excellent summary - thanks.
I have been in bees for nearly as long as you and agree with your frustration of various manufacturers .
I'm in Australia. The best wood is Hoop Pine - soft but strong enough and holds a nail well.
One thing you have not mentioned are EYELETS. I use 3 mm - better for me to get the wire through.
Some people use staples - I hate them, I'm a nail bloke for all parts.


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