# Deeps vs mediums



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

What, they only get heavy down south?


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

No. What I meant was Why do so many people in northern climates (or anywhere for that matter) use 2 to 3 deeps for brood, then mediums for honey? Rather than just using 4 to 5 mediums for brood then mediums for honey also, I would think the bees know the difference and would want all the same size frames all the way up. Just seems logical to keep everything the same size


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

GRIMBEE said:


> No. What I meant was Why do so many people in northern climates (or anywhere for that matter) use 2 to 3 deeps for brood, then mediums for honey? Rather than just using 4 to 5 mediums for brood then mediums for honey also, I would think the bees know the difference and would want all the same size frames all the way up. Just seems logical to keep everything the same size


Logic doesn't often enter the equation.

Many times its simply because that's the way the old-timers always did it... and a newbie asked a beekeeper how to get started and they told them "Well sonny... you get you a couple of hive bodies and then put the supers on top....."

Most of my colonies are meds... I use 3 meds for winter primarily and sometimes 4. I only have deeps on hand because some folks still want to buy deep nucs. I'm actually expanding my deep boxes this year as a result. However, I anticipate I will always have more med hives than deep. They are just WAY TOO HEAVY.

There isn't anything advantageous to deep boxes vs med boxes in cold northern climates.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>No. What I meant was Why do so many people in northern climates (or anywhere for that matter) use 2 to 3 deeps for brood, then mediums for honey?

Tradition.

I think the eight frame mediums winter the best, but it's not that different from ten frame deeps. The mediums get better communication between combs (the gap between the boxes) and eight frame boxes have the walls closer (like a tree does) so that there is less to heat and less honey gets left on the edges of the cluster as it moves up.


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## GRIMBEE (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm going on 37 in march, but still I don't want to have to lift 90-100lbs deeps filled with bees. Esp just starting out my first hives.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

I have always used mediums since I started beekeeping. I think they are even more helpful in the north because of the ability to move stores and bees around. Especially helpful for checkerboarding too.


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## kmartin (Apr 15, 2007)

Michael,

I have some questions, not trying to be critical, just curious. Based mostly on info I read on your site I've settled on 8 frame mediums, but I still think there may be more than tradition involved in the deep/medium debate.



> I think the eight frame mediums winter the best, but it's not that different from ten frame deeps. The mediums get better communication between combs (the gap between the boxes)


It seems to me that 1 gap between two combs would be less of a hindrance that 2 gaps between 3 mediums.



> and eight frame boxes have the walls closer (like a tree does) so that there is less to heat and less honey gets left on the edges of the cluster as it moves up.


I tend to agree, but I think I read here that a study had been done that measured temps in a hive dropped drastically a small distance (< 1 inch) from the cluster, no matter the total box space.

My understanding of a winter cluster is that it is spherical. To me, deeps would allow for more usable space within reach than mediums. Still the advantages of consistency and weight would put me in the medium camp.


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

I actually believe that the bees winter better on 8 frame mediums, when using 10 frame deeps on occaision, the bees will move over to one side of the hive, eat the honey, and then never be able to move back across to get the honey on the other side of the hive, and end up starving. 

From a historical perspective, deeps were used for brood, and honey supers were a lot smaller. The use of shallow, or medium supers didn't come into play until the use of extractors became prevelent. Probably post WWI.


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## kmartin (Apr 15, 2007)

Panhandle Bee man said:


> I actually believe that the bees winter better on 8 frame mediums, when using 10 frame deeps on occaision, the bees will move over to one side of the hive, eat the honey, and then never be able to move back across to get the honey on the other side of the hive, and end up starving.
> 
> From a historical perspective, deeps were used for brood, and honey supers were a lot smaller. The use of shallow, or medium supers didn't come into play until the use of extractors became prevelent. Probably post WWI.


That doesn't sound like a medium/deep difference, but 8/10 frame difference. Anybody use 8 frame deeps? Still too heavy though...


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Many commercial beekeeper use a deep brood chamber with the medium or added later.
I have seen colonies moved into pollination as singles that are full depth. A few short days later a medium of honey is placed under the full depth brood chamber for stimulation. The bees uncap the honey and move it up into the brood nest. Later, the hive bodies are reversed and the hives moved out of pollination into a second pollination or into a honey crop.
You will find that the mediums are very manageable. Place one or two on top of the hive according to it's needs. 
The winter cluster of bees in a FDS + a MDS can winter better than two full depth supers.
You are young at 37 and in a few more years you will appreciate the MDS.
The advantage of the 8 frame hive is that more can fit on a load and you make about 10% or more fewer trips down the road. But, 8FH can fall over.
You can make a divide with a MDS of brood and bees by placing it over a deep with drawn combs.
I have over-wintered colonies in MDS.
The bees may need to have their cluster centered. But, I have not seen that when they are on pallets. The hives on the pallet help block the wind chill and all four hives benefit.
If you want more communication space for the winter cluster go with the MDS as three of them give you the potential of 1/3 more than two FDS.
I do not know how you extract honey. But, MDS are easier and lighter to work with.
Pulling a honey crop is easier with MDS and you can leave the bees the darker grade of honey for winter feed.
Mite treatments should be superior in a hive that has a MDS vs a double. That is my opinion. Fewer cubic inches and better distrbution a fumes.
I could go on. But, I will stop for now as the arthretic spur on my spine is talking back at me. That is a hint about your super choice!
The tendency for bees to swarm is not correlated to the super size. It is your management, the season and genetics.
Regards,
Ernie


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>I think the eight frame mediums winter the best, but it's not that different from ten frame deeps. The mediums get better communication between combs (the gap between the boxes)

>It seems to me that 1 gap between two combs would be less of a hindrance that 2 gaps between 3 mediums.

If you imagine the cluster in a deep, especially with plastic foundation, they have several impenetrable walls between them. On mediums the cluster usually spans the gap and that makes a horizontal passage between the frames.

On deeps I often find a little cluster of bees that got stuck and couldn't get over to the next frame when the cluster contracted. I seldom see this with mediums.

>>and eight frame boxes have the walls closer (like a tree does) so that there is less to heat and less honey gets left on the edges of the cluster as it moves up.

>I tend to agree, but I think I read here that a study had been done that measured temps in a hive dropped drastically a small distance (< 1 inch) from the cluster, no matter the total box space.

Sure. And anyone who has ever spent any time in tents in the winter can tell you how very small things can make a huge difference in your heat loss even if you aren't heating the tent. The temperature may not be much different but a larger space feels much colder which is an indication of more heat loss.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering

It's a lot more complicated than we like to admit.

>My understanding of a winter cluster is that it is spherical. To me, deeps would allow for more usable space within reach than mediums. Still the advantages of consistency and weight would put me in the medium camp.

But the cluster will usually span the gap between the boxes, making the cluster more mobile.

>Anybody use 8 frame deeps?

I have a few and will probably get a few more so I can have some deep nucs to sell.

I also have a few 8 frame Dadant deeps and will probably build a few more since I have some frames to use.

My main temptation with the Dadant deeps is to try more of Walt Wrights moves. His seem to want to stay in the deep and he uses that to get them to be in the box he wants for the winter. The eight frame Dadant deep would be close to a ten frame deep in volume. But we will see. Maybe I'll do the Langstroth trick and bore a hole through the middle of all the combs before winter sets in.


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## kmartin (Apr 15, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> >>
> If you imagine the cluster in a deep, especially with plastic foundation, they have several impenetrable walls between them. On mediums the cluster usually spans the gap and that makes a horizontal passage between the frames.
> 
> On deeps I often find a little cluster of bees that got stuck and couldn't get over to the next frame when the cluster contracted. I seldom see this with mediums.


Are you thinking this is a situation where the bees are not given a choice, but have had to move/span the gap, lack of resources or just not that far from the cluster warmth? BTW, I've read about your theory on choices on your site, and I like the concept. The impenetrable walls apply equally well to mediums as deeps in this context if you discount the vertical travel required.

I won't get into it with you on the tent/large space thing, too much experience selling heat pumps to people that want gas heat.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*8 vs 10*

Pollination Conversation:
The grower to the beekeeper--I see you brought in those small boxes!
Beekeeper--Yes I did and let me show you how strong they are as a 10F is no different than an 8 frame when you count the contents. My I have my pollination check please?
The above conversation will never die. Big is NOT better i'ts deceiving.
Regards, 
Ernie


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I use two deeps to winter in outside. But it is necissary to feed in the fall as the brood nest shrinks.
I use deeps for supers aswell. We have very heavey flows, so there is no problem packing the honey into a 9 frame deep.
One consideration to working deeps is the time you will save extracting your honey.
Less equipment to handle per lbs of honey. Fact.
But the other fact is the boxes can get quite heavey, so if your planning to handle lots of them, get mechanized! Or hire a few energetic young backs


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## kmartin (Apr 15, 2007)

BEES4U said:


> Pollination Conversation:
> The grower to the beekeeper--I see you brought in those small boxes!
> Beekeeper--Yes I did and let me show you how strong they are as a 10F is no different than an 8 frame when you count the contents. My I have my pollination check please?
> The above conversation will never die. Big is NOT better i'ts deceiving.
> ...


You're assuming the grower is ignorant. Or worse, he's using your assumption that he is ignorant to cut his cost. Empirical evidence would be nice, not practical though, unless it's your living. Question, why don't growers maintain their own pollinators? Are they experts at it? Are they, as a whole, unreasonable?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Are you thinking this is a situation where the bees are not given a choice, but have had to move/span the gap, lack of resources or just not that far from the cluster warmth?

If the cluster is spanning the gap between the boxes then there is communication in the center of the cluster between the combs. With deeps there is not as the cluster almost never spans the boxes in winter.

>BTW, I've read about your theory on choices on your site, and I like the concept.

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to. Choices on depths of boxes?

>The impenetrable walls apply equally well to mediums as deeps in this context if you discount the vertical travel required.

Not at all if the gap is in the middle of the cluster as it is with mediums then they are not impeded from moving from frame to frame within the cluster. In deeps, in the winter, I have not seen them spanning that gap. With deeps they have to go to the top and over or the bottom and over.


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

Somebody has to stick up for the classic set up. I've only been in bees for 4 years so im first to admit im not an authority.

I run 2 deeps (10 frame) and stack standard suppers on top.
I've never had a deep full of honey, with brood and pollen they don't seem to weigh as much as a full supper of honey.

Also with 2 different sizes of frames, I never have brood in my medium frames so I never have pollen in them. My wax stays cleaner . 

I also have no chance of extracting frames with sugar honey or treated honey from meduim frames that may have been swithched around during they year. Of course keeping track of that is not hard, but we are talking about possible pros and cons.

I have been watching the 10 frame 8 frame debate for a while, there is a lack of activity on frames 1 and 10 in the 10 frame, rotating them can help with that but that is extra work.

My simple last point is, 2 deeps are cheaper than 3 meds. I'm only running 7 hives so its not a big deal, but like everyone else I'm looking to grow.

The big choice would be 10 frame or 8 frame, It's nice to have all your bottoms and covers the same size. I would pic one and stick to it.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

BGhoney said:


> , It's nice to have all your bottoms and covers the same size. I would pic one and stick to it.


Nice to have all your boxes the same size too!  I run both but prefer all one size. I would pick one (box size) and stick to it too!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BEES4U said:


> The winter cluster of bees in a FDS + a MDS can winter better than two full depth supers.


Wow, guess thriple deep over wintering is a real mistake.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BEES4U said:


> The winter cluster of bees in a FDS + a MDS can winter better than two full depth supers. Ernie


Maybe so in Ventura, California, but not so in St. Albans, Vermont. In fact, I recommend 2FDS + 1MDS...or even 3FDS


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

If you were located north of the border and have intentions of selling you equipment or nucs in the future, deeps would be a no brainer. In prairie provinces, deeps are used for brood chambers and honey supers. If fact you would have a very difficult time sell mediums to sideliners or commercial beeks.

Some of the reasons for this have been mentioned above: Tradition; standard size throughout; and less handling and extracting time.

As far as the weight issue, deeps weighing 100 lbs come from hives that should have had many more supers on them IMO. Normally, I aim for 30 - 40 lbs of honey per super. To get an average of 40 lbs the supers need to be jammed and I feel I'm losing honey production to wax production.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I aim for 30 - 40 lbs of honey per super. To get an average of 40 lbs the supers need to be jammed and I feel I'm losing honey production to wax production.


Good point.
And bringing super at 30-40 lbs of honey is a full up box. Everyonce and a while I will bring in a few 100 lbs boxes, mainly from hives I miss read as to strength, or when I get way behind on my work! 

All in all, heavey boxes mean heavey money!


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Ian said:


> All in all, heavey boxes mean heavey money!


Good point. It's the hired help that complains about heavy boxes, not the owner.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

First of all, I think that the word,..........."VERSUS",..[vs] as applied to this thread and perhaps many others regarding beekeeping is a misnomer that ought to be discarded. I am sure the thread starter [GRIMBEE] was well intentioned.

I guess I belong to the old school of,... "traditionalists". I never saw a medium box/super fifty years ago. When did they "appear" on the scene,..of beekeeping?

"Somebody has to stick up for the classic set up".-- BGhoney. Amen!..or,..Yahoo!..whichever you prefer. Oldbee.

My hives are in three deeps now in a "northern" state. I suppose I could go to 2D and 1M in the future but that's what they are "in" now. Am I losing sleep over it? Certainly NOT!! I use mediums/shallows only for the honey supers.

I don't know about,.. "communication" between the boxes;.. perhaps it's true. Does the cluster "jump up" to the second box [deep] during the progression of early winter and then,... "jump up" to the second and third boxes during late winter and early spring,..and,....... therefore,..there is,..no communucation? I don't know.

I will have to deal with the "weight issue" of any size boxes in the near future because I would like to have honey bees as long as possible. Eight framers might work; you can deal with the issue of "tipping over" like the German beekeepers do with those wire clamps for the covers; modified for the whole hive of course. Have a nice,..afternoon.


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## kmartin (Apr 15, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> >Are you thinking this is a situation where the bees are not given a choice, but have had to move/span the gap, lack of resources or just not that far from the cluster warmth?
> 
> If the cluster is spanning the gap between the boxes then there is communication in the center of the cluster between the combs. With deeps there is not as the cluster almost never spans the boxes in winter.


I didn't realize that a cluster was that small.



> >The impenetrable walls apply equally well to mediums as deeps in this context if you discount the vertical travel required.
> 
> Not at all if the gap is in the middle of the cluster as it is with mediums then they are not impeded from moving from frame to frame within the cluster. In deeps, in the winter, I have not seen them spanning that gap. With deeps they have to go to the top and over or the bottom and over.


Makes sense, if the cluster diameter is as smaller than the height of a deep. Something I didn't know.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

>My simple last point is, 2 deeps are cheaper than 3 meds.

This and the fact that I started out on deeps is why I use them. I have enough mediums for four colonies so I ordered some packages through a co-pay program with the state ag dept. ($25 a piece) I'd like to start some colonies out on mediums so in a few years I'll have both mediums and deeps when I have enough colonies to start selling some nucs from.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>My simple last point is, 2 deeps are cheaper than 3 meds.

8 frame medium vs 10 frame deep = 1.78 times more initial investment for boxes. ($64 for four eight frame mediums plus frames vs $36 for two deeps plus frames)

512 vs 288 for eight boxes vs four boxes

Plus lids and bottoms ($20)

$532 vs $308 = 1.73 times more or $224

100 hives * $224 = $22,400 which should just about cover your back surgery.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>$22,400 which should just about cover your back surgery.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> 100 hives * $224 = $22,400 which should just about cover your back surgery.


or a skid steer.


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

Like I said,, 7 hives, not a problem


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

> Pros and cons anyone?
> This olny applies to cold northern winter climates

Although responses came from TX, FL, GA, CA, as well as northern states, some of us are ex-Northerners so current address is not necessarily a reliable indicator of experience.

> Why do so many people in northern climates (or anywhere
> for that matter) use 2 to 3 deeps for brood, then mediums
> for honey?

The bee supplier starter kits were always deeps and those of us who started a while back often bought two starter kits because the cost was lower than buying individual boxes. Likely still true today. There was a time when deeps cost almost the same and were sometimes less than a medium.

My first purchases were all deeps for compatibility. That changed two years later after struggling to remove the top supers following a strong flow. Reusing all those deep honey supers as brood boxes wound up in rapid expansion of the apiary.

> Rather than just using 4 to 5 mediums for brood then
> mediums for honey also,

As has already been pointed out, cost, cost and cost. More mediums equals more expense for the same cubic capacity of brood nest.

> I would think the bees know the difference and would
> want all the same size frames all the way up.

Compatibility in frames and boxes is something that helps beekeepers manage bees.

> Just seems logical to keep everything the same size

To the beekeeper, but the real issue is whether it matters to the bees. It doesn't from what I've seen.

If cost is not a factor, 8-frame mediums across the board is a good choice for a newbie. No heavy lifting, and several beeks have proven that bees overwinter well in them.

If older than 65 or with health issues, long boxes (http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/lh/lh.html) on legs become very appealing because the only lifting involved is of frames.


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