# Foundationless studies



## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Does someone have any links to small cell or natural cell foundation effects on Varroa. I've heard from several people and even noticed an article in the ABJ that said small cell beekeeping had no effect on varroa levels. I'm curious what studies have been done and published by reputable sources. Or even the effects of natural cell (foundationless) on hive health and diseases/pests in general. Please and thank you.


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## T152 (Jun 15, 2012)

For small cell:

http://www.delta-business.com/Calga...y-2/Berry11091-Cell Size and Varroa Mites.pdf

http://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

http://www.resistantbees.com/index.php?r=30

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/small-cell/

Against small cell:

http://beebehavior.com/Arxive/small_cell_comb_varroa_mites.pdf


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

T152, your first link and your last link are the same information from two different sources (trade journal, sci. publication) and are both against small cell foundation. All of it is interesting reading though!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

My opinion is that we need to stop making the bees do what is not natural for them in the broodnest, like giving them small or large cell foundation. How about letting the bees draw what they want, or don't we trust them to do what is right for the colony. Everyone would like a quick fix to the varroa problem, but let's see, it's been over 100+ years that we have been forcing them to be unnatural in the broodnest with respect to cell size, so a solution is not going to happen that fast. I use natural cell in my broodnests, and my bees still have mites, but I have not lost a hive to mites in over 4 years and they are extremely productive. John


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

None of the studies that have been done test in real world conditions, throughout all the seasons, over a period of years, the way we real beekeepers keep bees.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

Solomon Parker said:


> None of the studies that have been done test in real world conditions


Sure there have been...Look what happened to all the feral colonies on foundation less comb when varroa arrived? For all practical purposes, they became extinct.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

Really an excellent point rbees. I'd say the main difference is varroa prefer the larger, longer maturing drone cell. I haven't seen any convincing evidence on the small cell theory. I do very much like the foundationless approach so they can construct the broodnest how they want with the cell size they want, with as much drone comb as they want.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> None of the studies that have been done test in real world conditions, throughout all the seasons, over a period of years, the way we real beekeepers keep bees.


Still waiting for the SC folks to publish a study the way they say it should be done. I even offered one well known SC proponent a slot at EAS 2+ years ago if he could do the study "The right way." Something empiracle and not..."It works for me, so I don't need to do no da** study.

If you're going to discount Seeley, Berry, et al, then you have to come up with something that backs up your claims. 

I'm still waiting.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Tom Seely gave a great presentation at EAS. Of all the feral hives he measured the average cell size was, if I remember correctly, 5.2mm versus the 5.4 of standard foundation. Hardly a difference at all to me.

In my opinion there has been enough research done using the scientific method by well known entomologists to prove to me that the solution to varroa lies somewhere else than inside of a cell that is .3 mm smaller.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

T152 said:


> For small cell:
> 
> http://www.delta-business.com/Calga...y-2/Berry11091-Cell Size and Varroa Mites.pdf
> 
> ...


The first one is a study that showed small cell doesn't work.

And if you read to the bottom of the Beenatural guy page it shows he is no longer small cell. He gave up on it. 

The other two I believe sell bees. Simply marketing.


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## d.frizzell (Aug 27, 2012)

So all the feral colonies did not become extinct after all, how did he define feral?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

These are studies by entomologists in several states. 
A. M. Ellis1 , G. W. Hayes1 and J. D. Ellis2
(1) Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, Division of Plant Industry, Bureau of Plant and Apiary Inspection, Apiary Inspection Section, 1911 SW 34th St., Gainesville, FL 32614-7100, USA
(2) Honey Bee Research and Extension Laboratory, Department of Entomology and Nematology, University of Florida, Bldg. 970 Natural Area Dr., Gainesville, FL 32611-0620, USA
Received: 3 October 2008 Accepted: 10 November 2008 Published online: 6 December 2008 
Abstract Due to a continuing shift toward reducing/minimizing the use of chemicals in honey bee colonies, we explored the possibility of using small cell foundation as a varroa control. Based on the number of anecdotal reports supporting small cell as an efficacious varroa control tool, we hypothesized that bee colonies housed on combs constructed on small cell foundation would have lower varroa populations and higher adult bee populations and more cm2 brood. To summarize our results, we found that the use of small cell foundation did not significantly affect cm2 total brood, total mites per colony, mites per brood cell, or mites per adult bee, but did affect adult bee population for two sampling months. Varroa levels were similar in all colonies throughout the study. We found no evidence that small cell foundation was beneficial with regard to varroa control under the tested conditions in Florida. 

Small-cell comb foundation does not impede Varroa mite population growth in honey bee colonies*
Jennifer A. Berry1, William B. Owens2, Keith S. Delaplane1
1 Department of Entomology, University of Georgia, Athens, GA 30602, USA
2 Owens Apiaries, 4510 Springwood Drive, Monroe, GA 30655, USA
Received 1 October 2008 – Revised 23 March 2009 – Accepted 27 April 2009
Abstract – In three independently replicated field studies, we compared biometrics of Varroa mite and
honey bee populations in bee colonies housed on one of two brood cell types: small-cell (4.9 �} 0.08 mm cell
width, walls inclusive) or conventional-cell (5.3 �} 0.04). In one of the studies, ending colony bee population
was significantly higher in small-cell colonies (14994 �} 2494 bees) than conventional-cell (5653 �} 1082).
However, small-cell colonies were significantly higher for mite population in brood (359.7 �} 87.4 vs.
134.5 �} 38.7), percentage of mite population in brood (49.4 �} 7.1 vs. 26.8 �} 6.7), and mites per 100 adult
bees (5.1 �} 0.9 vs. 3.3 �} 0.5). With the three remaining ending Varroa population metrics, mean trends
for small-cell were unfavorable. We conclude that small-cell comb technology does not impede Varroa
population growth.
3. McMullan, J. B., Brown, M. J. F. (2006). Brood-cell size does not influence the susceptibility of honey bees (Apis mellifera) to infestation by tracheal mites (Acarapis woodi). Experimental and Applied Acarology 39: 273-280.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Feral colonies are most definitely not extinct where I live.


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## d.frizzell (Aug 27, 2012)

Up here in Canada they are not extinct either, and it's the same story from the scientists. They say feral untreated colonies with mite cannot survive the winters here, yet in the real world we know that they do. The other thing I have noticed is they tend to focus in on the small cell term which is really only part of the picture of natural beekeeping.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Sustainable feral hives is making the assumption that bees do not repopulate dead cavities which they surely do. Tom Seeley has a great book, Honeybee Democracy, documenting scientific studies from many regions. Unless you have tracked nesting cavities continuously visually, you assume.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have noticed lots of things people say that have no bearing in what is actually observed.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

Paul McCarty said:


> Feral colonies are most definitely not extinct where I live.


I didn't say the ARE extinct, I said that for all practical purposes they became extinct when varroa arrived...which in areas where varroa was prevelent most certainly was the case. DId varroa get ALL...no...almost all...yes.

Ever why the rental fees for the Almonds and other crops went up so much after varroa?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Extinct is a pretty concrete word. You can't be partly extinct or somewhat extinct. You are either extinct or you are not extinct. You can be going extinct (requring an eventual extinction) or you can be recovering from near extinction. How is 'extinct for all practical purposes' anything less than NOT EXTINCT? 

The idea that feral bees went extinct or even for any practical purposes is pure conjecture. The facts remain that feral bees are still out there, which means they didn't go extinct, nor would they have for 'all practical purposes' because for all practical purposes, extinct is extinct, and not extinct is not extinct.

Extinct, noun, No longer in existence; having died out.

Feral bees are not, nor were they ever, extinct, nor, as evidenced by their recovery and continued existence, extinct 'for all practical purposes.'


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

How about "decimated"? I have read 90% of feral colonies disappeared. Since they are subject to augmentation from tended bee swarms, any hive livinging in the bush cannot definitively claim descendence from ancient feral colonies. It is practice to point to the existence of some wild colonies to support the philosophy that bees get tougher if you treat them rough. There are some convincing examples supporting this concept but the jury at large is still out.


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## wadehump (Sep 30, 2007)

rbees said:


> Sure there have been...Look what happened to all the feral colonies on foundation less comb when varroa arrived? For all practical purposes, they became extinct.


If all the feral colines are extinct then why do i get several calls for cutouts and swarms every summer. Talked to the bee inspector during my hives inspections last saturday and we both agreed that the feral population is alive and well here.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

"Changed" is a better word for them. They had to evolve to handle Varroa and other issues. The ones we have out here now are some hardy bees for the most part. Mine need no treatment at all - never did - even from the start. Now they may not always be the best honey producers, but take what you can get. Wild bees are mostly free, if you count out the cost of gas and labor.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

rbees said:


> Sure there have been...Look what happened to all the feral colonies on foundation less comb when varroa arrived? For all practical purposes, they became extinct.


Maybe that happened in your part of the world, but there were no slump in numbers of feral colonies over here, and maybe even a few more than usual. And, sure perhaps some of that may be attributed to AHB, but not all.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I think, any cell size foundation is different from "foundationless". Making connections between natural honey comb in feral colonies with any size cell foundation is wrong because natural (foundationless) comb has cells of different size - whichever bees needed at the moment. ANY foundation restrains bees needs (if any) in natural comb. As for Varroa -it is similar to what was happened to native people in America when Europeans bring in their diseases - huge number of native people dies from syphilis etc. introduced by Europeans. But some - survived and do exist these days. Same with bees - at the beginning, they were unprepared and many dies but with time, they developed means to exist with mites. Adaptation takes time and many cycles of reproduction. Any animal/human is more vulnerable to disease when stressed out. It is true for bees also - unstressed bees has better resistance to any disease in general. I read in the books that making a natural comb is stress relive for bees. If it is true, than foundationless approach may have sense - it releases the stress and made bees more immune against diseases and parasites including Varroa. It is just my theory. I am sure that many factors contributed to bee survival. Argument that feral bees extinct is simply not true. We need to understand that these rare "survival" bees are precious because they could help to find solution for mites. Sergey


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

As far as AHB goes, I am not fully convinced the addition of their genetics has been a bad thing for these ferals. We just need to keep breeding them for better temperament and production. Heck, at one point we had Tunisian Bees here in Southern NM, probably from the Spanish. I bet they are still here somewhere. African genes have been here a long, long time IMHO. I'll keep my small wild bees, thank you. They may have some behavior issues occasionally, but they are way hardy.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Honey bees in North America, with a few excpetions, have a very "shallow gene pool" -- to whit, not very many were brought over initially, and the African bees that got loose in Brazil were descended from 5 or six queens, not millions. 

The result is that there is very little genetic diversity in feral bees compared to Europe, where they are native. Varroa was a huge problem because there were very few hives that were initially resistant to the mites, and the mites had not evolved yet to be parasitic rather than lethal. This causes massive dieoffs of hives, especially in places where very large numbers of hives were generated in large apiaries that were fairly isolated (California, for instance) since the hives were all closely related. 

Eventually, we will get bees that tolerate mites pretty well simply by natural selection and beekeepers breeding from hives that have low mite levels. Probably several mechanisms, from increased aggressiveness toward phoretic mites to hygeinic behavior to shorter brood development times and hence failure of the mites to mature in the capped brood. I have seen very few mites on either swarm I collected this year, so we may be making progress with that.

As far as cell size goes, the only effect size would have would be to change the time it takes for the capped brood to mature. If small bees emerge a day or so sooner than large bees, fewer mites. If the time the cells are capped doesn't change, likely the mite load won't either.

Funny thing I see, is that I have a range of bee size on one swarm and not the other. Initially, there were quite a few small bees, but I expected them to vanish over the summer since I put them on foundation. instead, I still have some smaller bees in that hive, not as many as originally, but still enough to notice. Never had a shortage of pollen, so it wasn't protein deficiency making them small, and so far as I can tell, the brood nest is all the same size cells, I've not actually measured and won't unless they die off for some reason. Not likely, they filled two mediums with brood and honey in a serious dearth, very active bees.

Peter


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I am not sure it's the cell size on my wildish bees or the fact that I have visually witnessed them grooming mites off each other that let's them survive so well. More than likely it is both.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I'm in agreement with others who have mentioned on here that it is more than just "small cell". I am foundationless and the last hive I lost was to starvation in november (should have checked them in fall and added feed, opps my fault). People get all worried about too many drones or drone comb. Like the bees don't know what they are doing. Yeah I know more mouths to feed. As I've said in the past, move the drone comb to position 1 and 10 and the bees will use them when they need them. As for too many drones, Whose drones would you rather have out there effecting the area genetics, yours (who you must like or why do you have them),or joe shmoe's down the road who you don't know what he has. Or the AFBs?

Rod


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## TooFarGone (Aug 19, 2012)

While reading the thread, I noticed that the article by Seeley et al has not been discussed. 
Seeley, Thomas D. and Griffin, Sean R. 2011. Small-cell comb does not control Varroa mites in colonies of honeybees of European origin. Apidologie 42:526-532, DOI: 10.1007/s13592-011-0054-4.
Abstract
We tested the idea that Varroa destructor can be controlled in colonies of the European subspecies of Apis mellifera by providing them with combs built of small cells, in which immature mites might have difficulty developing for lack of space. We established seven pairs of equal-size colonies that started out equally infested with mites. In each pair, one hive contained only standard-cell (5.4 mm) comb, and the other contained only small-cell (4.8 mm) comb. We measured the colonies' mite loads at monthly intervals across a summer. No differences arose between the two treatment groups in their mean mite loads (mites per 100 worker bees or mite drop per 48 h). We suggest that providing small-cell combs did not inhibit mite reproduction because the fill factor (thorax width/cell width) was only slightly higher in the small cells than in the standard cells (79% and 73%, respectively).

Link to article pdf here:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/8g697443p6274022/

This article does not support the idea that small cell reduces Varroa mites. I did notice that when using the plastic foundation for the small cell arm of the study, the small cell group did not build up like the non-small cell group with the bee numbers at the end of the summer being half or less than the controls. All the small cell colonies died that winter with a good portion of the non-small cell hives surviving. This poor buildup and subsequent total failure to winter begs the question "was it the plastic comb?". I have read reports that some queens just don't like the plastic combs. The scientific studies are tending to show that cell size as a single variable does not suppress the mite population in the first summer. It would have been nice if the small cell colonies would have survived the winter and the study continued for subsequent years.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I can't prove what it is, but I have 9 hives going into winter (one from a split that I doubt will make it) and the only thing I've done is give them some SC comb. I went to put reducers/mice guards on and noticed most of them had some pupa and DWV victims laying at the entrance, so I know these hives are dealing with a noticeable mite load. I see this every fall, yet most pull through the winter and become my summer hives.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Barry said:


> I can't prove what it is, ... noticed most of them had some pupa and DWV victims laying at the entrance, so I know these hives are dealing with a noticeable mite load. I see this every fall, yet most pull through the winter and become my summer hives.


I can say the same thing about my SC hives AND my LC hives.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

No, I believe you've said in the past that all your SC hives died.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Barry said:


> No, I believe you've said in the past that all your SC hives died.


That was winter 09-10. This last year, some of both sc and lc pulled through, but most died. I don't know the percentage of sc VS lc success, but the sc don't show any obvious higher success rate. I see the age of queen being the most important success in recent wintering of my bees. One small cell bait from summer 2011 flew strong until this September, and now has had weeks of DWV losses. Next to it is a lc hive with a young queen from a removal job, boiling with bees and collecting a fall flow.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

TooFarGone said:


> While reading the thread, I noticed that the article by Seeley et al has not been discussed.


Actually, we've discussed the Seeley study at length a number of times in this forum. The Seeley study invalidates itself by using plastic comb and assuming that it's the same in all ways as wax comb. If they wanted an objective study, they should have used some other size plastic comb as a control.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Wade, I am not so sure about that. I met a lady recently who gets bees in her deck every year...they die out every winter, but every spring, a swarm comes along and moves in. And by now, after several seasons, it is the ultimate swarm lure...small opening, interior loaded with old comb and probably honey, queen scent/bee scent, dry, 15' off the ground and even south facing. I had a peek at this year's bees and they are big...they look like bees that swarmed out of someone's hive. 

So while there must be bees out there that are truly overwintering survivors, you would have to watch closely to see if the hive just died out and was repopulated by a spring swarm.

We should have more experimental beeyards out there with hives set up in the hope some may survive without intervention.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

Small cell may have advantages beyond mite suppression. Advantages worth studying: 

Do small cell hives support larger forager populations?
If so, do larger small cell forager populations put up more honey?
Are small cell bees more efficient...ie. is smaller brood is lest costly to raise? Smaller cells less costly to construct? Recover from setbacks more quickly or easily??
Do small cell queens and drones make for superior mating dynamics? 
Does small cell and/or foundationless supply other benefits of some kind...ie less stress, better stress handling?

Plenty of topics to keep those Masters and PhD candidates occupied...


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have often wondered if small cell gives the advantage of more bees and a larger field force. It would seem logical. Not only that, but they would be able to take advantage of smaller flowers theoretically.

A few of the wild hives I have removed have come from places where the bees have been documented to overwinter year after year, but just as many have come from obvious swarm hives.


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