# Building Boxes



## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Yes, the 1x10 is too short for the deep frames. A table saw will make quick work of those rabbits. And lastly, home depot and Lowes lumber will be the same price after your done than if you just bought unassembled boxes that are already cut. More if you buy a tool just for the job.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Most boxes are 9 5/8" tall.Get the 1x12's.Go to a regular lumberyard you will find 1x12 white pine cheaper there.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

snapper1d said:


> Most boxes are 9 5/8" tall.Get the 1x12's.Go to a regular lumberyard you will find 1x12 white pine cheaper there.


Do you mean a local sawmill or something like "84 Lumber"?


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

snapper1d said:


> Most boxes are 9 5/8" tall.Get the 1x12's.Go to a regular lumberyard you will find 1x12 white pine cheaper there.


 Southern yellow pine is cheaper ... and if you can get to be pals with the guys out in the lumber yard they'll let you pick your lumber ... I select pieces that are cut from the central part of the log , they will warp less with humidity changes . The off-cuts from those 1x12's come in useful for making bottom boards and telescoping tops , if you plan your cuts there will be very little waste .


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

When i build boxes i use 12" boards and rip them down to size, then use the ripped ends for handles on the boxes and ends for the migratory lids i build for them. 

Cost may be a wash, or a while to recover depending on which tools you buy, but there is something about building your own.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

e-spice said:


> Do you mean a local sawmill or something like "84 Lumber"?


No not a saw mill.A regular builders supply.Home depot is rather high on their white pine.Dont bother with yellow pine it will warp on you.We had a builders supply and you wouldnt believe how much yellow pine we had to cull because of it warping.The white pine hardly ever warped.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

In mid-Missouri local yards will only be milling hardwoods. We have a local chain like 84 Lumber that buys pine wholesale and sells it at a much better price than the big box stores. I haven't checked 84's prices for pine but I'd bet they are comparable.

Dwain, that's La Cross Lumber, if you have any of those near you check them out, if not try 84 Lumber. I use 1x12 for deeps. You do need to rip them to 9 5/8". The good news is you have a good size of offcuts for inner covers outer covers and various other related items. I use a dado set for lots of things on box building. I had to get a different table saw recently as I burnt out the motor on my old one. My dado set won't work with this new saw and I need to get a 6" set. If you are interested in my dado I'd be happy to bring it to the TRB meeting on Monday. I'll give you a good price on it as I was wondering how to sell it. You don't need to respond on this as I will bring it with me to the meeting. If you don't want it I'll bet I can find someone who will.


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

snapper1d said:


> No not a saw mill.A regular builders supply.Home depot is rather high on their white pine.Dont bother with yellow pine it will warp on you.We had a builders supply and you wouldnt believe how much yellow pine we had to cull because of it warping.The white pine hardly ever warped.


 Did you select the boards (SYP) that were cut from the center ? It's been my experience that the material is not as important as the grain . Quarter sawn or rift cut is preferred , but seldom found any more because plain slicing gives better yield with much less work .


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

The table saw will make the rabbets or you can use a router (and router table). I use the 3/4" straight bit for the frame rests, grooves on bottom boards, and any rabbet cuts. The router is faster for me than multiple cuts with the table saw but you need to know how to resharpen router bits, over time as it can get expensive if you have to keep buying new bits.
If you buy lumber at Lowes, get the shelving 1x12s. They are usually separate from the regular 1x12s, near the 1x2s and 1x3s. They are a couple $$ cheaper than the regular 1x12s and are 8 feet long. You have to sort through the boards as many will have large knots or may have some warping but still make a good box.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Locally, Menards is having a sale on 1x8 and 1x12 (and a bunch of their other lumber too). 6' 1x12 for $6.35 (or 12' for $12.59) and 12' 1x8 for the same price. That's a deep for about $6.35 and two medium supers for $3.18/each. 
Normal pricing makes it a wash and I spend more time. But for $4-7 cheaper each box... I like that. I talked to Home Depot and they told me they'd match Menards pricing. So going to go give that a shot tonight. Will be sorting boards in the pine aisle for a half hour probably... haha


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Is your Time worth Nothing? I am semi retired and my time is still worth far more than the few dollars saved by buying the wood and doing it myself. When all is said and done the time it takes to research the best deals, go to the lumber yard, negotiate that deal, hand select the wood, truck it home, unload it, store it, cut, rip, make joints, and clean my shop. I have a significant amount of time invested. Where I to spend that time at a revenue generating task, I would make 10 times what I saved by making it as opposed to buying it pre maid.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

It's much easier to stomach spending $65 for 20 supers than it is for me to spend $200. Honestly, the time to cut the box is almost negligible compared to gluing, nailing, and painting it. The bees paid for *most* of the new equipment this year... hoping to make them stand on their own after this winter.  And then it may not matter so much what I pay for the wood.

That said, I did buy all my deeps from ML during their black friday sale. But I think I'll make a few more. Gotta do something this winter.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

when building ALL the inside measurements must be exact for correct bee-space. i can buy pre-cut or assembled boxes much cheaper than buying the lumber. this would bee from a local hive builder not out of a catalog. this may be different if you are dealing with tractor trailer loads and need to keep a crew busy in the off season, even then you are keeping a crew busy at best.


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## Georgiabeeman (Dec 10, 2015)

I love building my own equipment. I get to decide where the handles go and get to do all the final inspections. Much better quality! I have also found a million things to do for the next hive with any scrap pieces.


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

I bought 12: 1x12 pine at lowes the other day for a little less than $10.00 each. That comes out to $5.00/box. http://www.lowes.com/pd_986-99899-1031351___?productId=3605398&pl=1&Ntt=1x12


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

Must be Lowes in IF, since that's the closest to you, right? I'll have to head over there this weekend. 

Last time i built nucs from lumber i didn't plan out the board and cut too many sides without optimizing the length and ended up with some left over wood. 

It's fun to build your own boxes, even if not economical, but planning out the cuts to maximize the lumber makes you feel even better about your decision.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Most of my boxes are made from 2x lumber. Cheaper than 1x (at retail stores) quality is much better. 2x12s are used for construction to support a whole house. 1x lumber is used for shelves and trim. 2X lumber has fewer knots, cracks and very little warping. Most are cut from the center of the long, then the left over is used to make 1x2s and 2x4s. 

They are heavier, especially 10 frames full. But I will never need to replace them.


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

> Must be Lowes in IF, since that's the closest to you, right?


Yep, Lowes in IF, I am pretty careful of pre-planning my cuts and usually only have a couple inches of waste/board. Are you part of the beekeepers of south east Idaho Facebook page? https://www.facebook.com/groups/254702931357194/


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

yotebuster1200 said:


> Are you part of the beekeepers of south east Idaho Facebook page? https://www.facebook.com/groups/254702931357194/


I don't have facebook, but i am active in the IF Beekeepers club. A distance for you to travel for a 2 hour meeting, but always a fun group.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

yotebuster1200, that's a good price. 12' 1x12 here runs me like $21. The price for this Menards sale is much better. Lumber doesn't seem to go on sale around here much.


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## Outdoor N8 (Aug 7, 2015)

Yotebuster, you got me excited at those board prices; but this is what I came up with from your link:
Top Choice 1 x 12 x 12 Kiln-Dried Whitewood Softwood Board
Item #: 986 | Model #: 1031351
3.7 / 5

14 reviews | Write a review
$32.72

We get GOUGED here! 
I would look into buying from a local mill but the anti-logging folks have just about eliminated them. The only one left in the area has to buy their trees from private land. And that just makes the boards even more expensive. (they stay in business making custom vegas and beams) So i just buy boxes on sale , pre-cut, from Mann Lake.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Tenbears said:


> Is your Time worth Nothing? I am semi retired and my time is still worth far more than the few dollars saved by buying the wood and doing it myself. .... Where I to spend that time at a revenue generating task, I would make 10 times what I saved by making it as opposed to buying it pre maid.



In many instances your conclusions are accurate. 

However, there are also many situations where a person might be on a fixed income and does not have an option to generate "extra revenue" with their free time. The only choice for them would be the frugal approach, "saving" a few bucks would be equal to earning extra income. 

The financial justification to build you own boxes is not a cookie cutter approach, one size fits all. Everyone is in their own unique situation and should evaluate the benefit, or lack thereof, based on their individual status. Additionally the cost of lumber varies tremendously depending upon your geographic location in the country.


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## Sky (Jul 7, 2015)

Dwain Jansen said:


> Just a quick question. I am going to be building some boxes. I have a commercially made deep box, and it measures 9 9/16 tall. Home Depot has 1x10 material which is 9 1/4 tall. Is that shortage of a quarter inch going go be bad? Should I just get a 1x12 and rip it to 9 9/16? Thinking if I go with the 1x10 it might interfere with bee space.


Dwain, - the short answer is "yes" - the height works in conjunction with your frame heights to ensure appropriate bees spaces.... 9 1/4 will mess you up.

if you already have 1x10s - just glue on a 1/4, 3/8's, or what ever thickness strip you need to the bottom edge to get your 9 9/16 - 9 5/8 height you need and build away. if you use nails think ahead on your placement so you won't need to extract or saw thru any of them later.

Since it sounds like you are building, and it may be the first time for a hive body.... and we're all throwing advice out there....let me throw out some building advice or things to think about......

I recommend paying a little extra attention to your frame rest height and depth when you are cutting it. if you have a frame on hand, test fit everything together before driving any nails. Making the rabbit wider or deeper or gluing a bit back in and re-cutting it as needed is waaaay easier before the glue dries..(don't ask how i know this) - this is a common problem area that only gets worse over time as propolis builds up. allow a little extra room on this rabbit so that when the top bar is in place it is not tight - end to end....

also - you will also want to decide if you want your frames to be flush with the top or the bottom of the box.... their are some that favor one placement over the other, either works, but commit to one way and stick with it *forever more *- this will keep beespaces consistent across your equipment... i'll suggest you let the box(es) you already have decide this and then just go with it from here on out... 

Sky


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

So if you have a dato blade set for your saw and you purchased a 1x12 you cut a dato in the bottom the thickness of plywood (scrap works well). You put the plywood in the grove when you glue it up (now you have a box with a rabbit on the top and a solid bottom. Set your fence to the depth of the hive, cut the bottom off and now you have a perfectly fitting inner cover. Extra time spent-minimal, cost is the plywood, now you have a hive body and an inner cover!
Or you skip the plywood and make the box with the full 2x12, cut the bottom off the box and now you have a perfect feeder shim for next winter. zero waste.
Or you glue up the box using the full board, cut the bottom off as mentioned before and make a double screen board. See if you can get any of those two items for the cost of the board!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I built my own sawmill and not counting getting the boards cut, it takes me a week to build two medium boxes, a top cover, bottom and tellescope lid and 20 frames. This is my second winter and I only have about 5 full hives built with two of them being long langs (the long langs are quicker). I can't believe how much wood it takes and how long it takes. My wood is pretty rough to work with and takes some extra time. I am like the guy that was referred to earlier about being on a limited income and even though I am in a way waisting my time. I still feel ok about it cause it fits my buget and is cheeper then other things I might want to do. I think my boxes are pretty crappy but believe the bees won't mind in the end. I might mind as I am using oak and may have to rotate out crappy stuff pretty often as I am not painting. time will tell. 

I can't believe how long it takes me to build this stuff and how much wood it takes. Good thing I don't have other things that need doing. If I did, It would be worth buying new.

Do what makes you happy and that you have the time to do.
Good luck
gww


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

GWW, it probably takes you a long time because the process you are taking and the limited equipment you are building. If you have to reset your fence here and there, add a jig for that and recheck your measurements on every adjustment. Make your cut and change the setup again. Sure, that way takes alot of time. 

But if you were to make 20 boxes, 20 bottoms, 20 lids and so on. You can make one adjustment and make 20 cuts, make another adjustment and pump out another 20 cuts. So, making alot takes less time, but one or two takes longer for sure.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Rookie....



> GWW, it probably takes you a long time because the process you are taking and the limited equipment you are building. If you have to reset your fence here and there, add a jig for that and recheck your measurements on every adjustment. Make your cut and change the setup again. Sure, that way takes alot of time.


No doubt you are right. 

Last year I built with reclaimed boards of non-standard thickness and this year is not much better due to drying issues and board quality. You have to have quite a few boards with no defects to do mass production and even with my sawmill it take a long time to dry boards and I have used alot of my older wood for other things. 

As I build confidence and knowlage on what it really takes wood wise, I should do better. I measure so bad that I am afraid to do 20 boxes at one time but as I get my processes down a little better and if I find that my bees actually live and I have a need, I intend to get better. I started out glueing everything and hand nailing. I now have a brad/staple gun and am not gluing. I did the rabbit joints and but joints, but now have bought a dado blade and tried finger joints.

I did add on handles and now am trying the cleo jig for recessed handles. I started out compleetly dumb and am learning what I like and hoping to figure out what does work to do a bunch at a time with few errors. I don't even have bees yet but am still enjoying this and hoping to do better.

I can look at what others do but it never starts out working for me like it works for them but I am getting better.

If nothing else, building your own teaches you about bee space, which I never would have considerred had I not studied on how to try and build. It has been worth while so far. 

Your post does hit the nail on the head on being professional as opposed to a just starting hobyest.
Cheers
gww

PS Does anyone have any advice on how to put fingered corners together without having to bang so hard that you cause splits in your boards? I am likeing the finger joints cause you get good inside measurements of your boxes regardless of board thickness and so have to do no math.


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## Fishmaster50 (Apr 30, 2015)

I got a question for box building. Did any body do biscuit in their butt joints? I made some with just glue and screws on butt joints but figured the biscuits could even help reinforce.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Fish.....
As you can see by my post, I am not a wood worker. I would think that a rabbit joint the lenght of the board would be easier then doing biscuits but am willing to be corrected. I liked when I did the rabbit joints but I was using non-standard thick boards and when following the plan for the box I had to use math to adjust the length of the side boards for the inside to come out correct. Easyer to do with a plain butt joint or with the finger joints. For bought boards that are 3/4 inch thick, a slot on both boards with an incert sliver of board is very easy.

Others know lots more then me and I only have a table saw and have never made biscuits before so what do I know.
Good luck
gww


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

Outdoor N8 said:


> Yotebuster, you got me excited at those board prices; but this is what I came up with from your link:
> Top Choice 1 x 12 x 12 Kiln-Dried Whitewood Softwood Board
> Item #: 986 | Model #: 1031351
> 3.7 / 5
> ...


That is sad! Here is a screen shot when I pull up that link


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> It's much easier to stomach spending $65 for 20 supers than it is for me to spend $200. Honestly, the time to cut the box is almost negligible compared to gluing, nailing, and painting it. The bees paid for *most* of the new equipment this year... hoping to make them stand on their own after this winter.  And then it may not matter so much what I pay for the wood.
> 
> That said, I did buy all my deeps from ML during their black friday sale. But I think I'll make a few more. Gotta do something this winter.


Your right JW it doesnt take long to cut out boxes.I mark my boards and cut off with the skilsaw and then to the table saw to cut all the rabbets.Then all the gluing and nailing and painting.When I get so busy I cant cut up boxes then I will start buying them.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

That same 1x12x12 here at lowes cost $32.00, for me it is cheaper to buy from ML We have no more lumber yards..


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Fish- I don't have boxes made with butt joints and biscuits, but have used biscuits quite a bit for other things.. They would be much better than just butt joints and scews, and I'd guess just as strong as rabbets. I was actually going to use biscuits on the next batch of boxes I make. If you have the cutter, go for it, but I wouldn't buy the cutter just for making boxes.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

gww said:


> PS Does anyone have any advice on how to put fingered corners together without having to bang so hard that you cause splits in your boards? I am likeing the finger joints cause you get good inside measurements of your boxes regardless of board thickness and so have to do no math.


You need to add a shim inside your dato stack (most sets come with them). I am talking a small shim, not another blade. It will make your fingers that much narrower and your groves that much wider so figure if you add a 0.020 shim you just gained 0.040. My old Vermont set came with paper ones, my Osland set comes with metal ones. You will need to always insure you press the same side of the board to the spacer when you are cutting them.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

minz
Thanks for answering my question. I have paper shims and will try it on my next batch of boxes. 
gww


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Just spent $102 on this stack. 5 - 1x12 and 22 - 1x8. Would have cost me about $265 from Home Depot and around $300 from Mann Lake.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Also, don't forget Craigslist. Twice I have got 1x12's from people who had used them for shelves for about 30c/foot.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

JW do you have a regular builders supply or lumberyard there where you are at.I get my 1x12x12's for $16 each with tax included at my lumberyard here.My boxes end up costing $8 each and are much better than what I get from Mann Lake.I buy everything from them but I can beat them by well over $3 a box.I need over 100 boxes now so I will be cutting out my own.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

snapper1d said:


> JW do you have a regular builders supply or lumberyard there where you are at.I get my 1x12x12's for $16 each with tax included at my lumberyard here.My boxes end up costing $8 each and are much better than what I get from Mann Lake.I buy everything from them but I can beat them by well over $3 a box.I need over 100 boxes now so I will be cutting out my own.


The lumber yards around don't even come close to HD pricing which is high. Menards has better selection (many different grades of pine). These are the cheapest kind and through tomorrow are on sale for less than half of normal price. Typically Mann Lake is cheaper on deeps and I can save $4 or so on a medium with HD pricing. But with the price I just paid I'm looking at $6-8 savings per box... It was too much to ignore. If it's a buck or two I call it was wash buying pre-cut. But for savings enough (or at least almost close enough) to cover the foundation order I'm going to put into Acorn when it warms up a bit... I couldn't really not capitalize.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Most of my boxes are made from 2x lumber. Cheaper than 1x (at retail stores) quality is much better. 2x12s are used for construction to support a whole house. 1x lumber is used for shelves and trim. 2X lumber has fewer knots, cracks and very little warping. Most are cut from the center of the long, then the left over is used to make 1x2s and 2x4s.
> 
> They are heavier, especially 10 frames full. But I will never need to replace them.


FlowerPlanter - How do you like those boxes made from 2x stock? Got a few of them I've made myself that way and like them much better than the 3/4 stock. Bees seem to do better in them in summer and winter from what I've seen so far. What's your take on it?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I do like them better. So many benefits. 

More insulation winter and summer=less energy spent by the bees to heat and cool=more honey reserves=better winter survival. 

May also help to control humidity better, closer to the environment of a tree.

An empty also makes a great chairs while working on a hive. So strong I could park my truck on it.

I can't imagine a wind that could blow them over. 

The will outlast any 1x lumber.

IMO one could make them bear proof by screwing them together. A bear might knock it over but I think you could keep it out of the hive.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

In my opinion, buying unassembled boxes is just way too expensive just to save on the effort of milling. 

I get full 1x stock from a local mill at around $.50 a foot and build my own boxes. From what I can tell, the cost savings is huge - even with my time. Unless you buy gear assembled, I find it's pretty easy to mill the parts. A lot of the time is assembly and painting - and you still have to do that if you buy unassembled boxes. 

I built 200 boxes this year, and even if I consider time at a solid hourly, it's still cheaper than buying.

Adam


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

AFC, that depends on the wood you are purchasing. I can buy green cypress for $1.40 per board foot. By the time I cut out the worst knots, it takes about 7 linear feet to make a 10 frame box. My cost is about $8.50 per box with a bit of extra cutoff that can be used for other hive parts. I can purchase cypress hives cut and ready to glue and nail for $11. $2.50 per box is all I would save cutting my own. Given that price differential, I can justify purchasing the ready to assemble woodenware. If my price was fifty cents per board foot, I would sing a different tune. With that said, I built almost all of my woodenware with the exception of some Langstroth deeps that I purchased from a retired beekeeper.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I get full 1x stock from a local mill at around $.50 a foot and build my own boxes.


Same here. The problem is that not everyone has a local saw mill available nor the forest to support one.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I get full 1x stock from a local mill at around $.50 a foot and build my own boxes. From what I can tell, the cost savings is huge - even with my time. Unless you buy gear assembled, I find it's pretty easy to mill the parts. A lot of the time is assembly and painting - and you still have to do that if you buy unassembled boxes.


A normally priced 1x12x12 here is $21-22 dollars, which puts the price at about $11/deep. You can save some money on mediums as a 1x8x12 is around $10-11 which seems to be close to what you pay for one super pre-cut. This pine sale I found getting a 1x12x6 for $6.35 and a 1x8x6 for $3.19 was by far the best price I've ever seen locally for pine. It's not a great quality board and I picked through almost all of them to come away with 27 good boards. But it saved me 50% off normal and probably 75% off buying pre-cut.
Would be awesome to have a local mill to purchase from... there are some local mills, but none of them process pine. Good hardwood stands here and they're milling and sawing 8-12/4 walnut, cherry, and oak for counters, tables, etc.


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## BradC (Apr 4, 2015)

For the budgeting hobbyist, such as myself, it can be more cost effective to build. I can build mediums for about 9 per from the big box stores. It would cost me about 15 or so to buy unassembled local and more if shipped for the amount of boxes I would use. That is a pretty big cost difference. I built four mediums the other night in about two hours using circ saw and table saw without dado blades. I would have to say, I did a good job for the first time building equipment. I did not do full rabbit joints though. That would have added a lot of time to the project. All I have left is to put two coats of paint and they are ready for spring.


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## B Steve B (Jun 4, 2015)

Definitely more cost effective to build from scratch if you are already an experienced and well equipped woodworker. When I'm producing stuff for sale, the rule is "never less than two and the more the merrier". Setup time per unit goes way down if you plan your cuts well for multiple units. I'm practicing the same principal for my own apiary expansion. Boxes take very little time at all if your tools and jigs are high quality. Frames are another story, but still benefit from good planning - and much of the material can come from " waste" from the boxes. 

I am building only mediums now for a few reasons - one of them being that it is far easier to find inexpensive straight 1x8 stock than 1x12. 

Frame ends are cut from 2x4 scrap that is essentially free. I dado across the width of the blocks for the top and bottom bar slots (using the same width and depth to save setup time), cut the profile of the ends from the flats of the blocks on the band saw with the blocks on edge, then flip the blocks over to the flats and slice off each end piece again on the band saw. Just like slicing bread.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

B Steve B said:


> Frame ends are cut from 2x4 scrap that is essentially free. I dado across the width of the blocks for the top and bottom bar slots (using the same width and depth to save setup time), cut the profile of the ends from the flats of the blocks on the band saw with the blocks on edge, then flip the blocks over to the flats and slice off each end piece again on the band saw. Just like slicing bread.


or push the blocks through a jointer with a stop block on the end. For this operation I like to leave my frames 2x long and then do the sides, chop saw them apart and then do the top dato.
JM2C


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## B Steve B (Jun 4, 2015)

minz said:


> or push the blocks through a jointer with a stop block on the end....


Good idea. I don't currently have a jointer, but I can do the same thing for the side cuts on the shaper. Thanks!


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Georgiabeeman said:


> I love building my own equipment. I get to decide where the handles go and get to do all the final inspections. Much better quality! I have also found a million things to do for the next hive with any scrap pieces.


Where do you get your wood? I build my own too, but haven't found any good sources of wood.


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