# Which Thymol product?



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

First I would assess the mite levels. Use a sugar roll or a sticky board. If you don't have a lot of mites, don't worry about it. If you do, then you can do whatever you like, but Oxalic will have the most knockdown. Powdered sugar is probably the least chemically dangerous.

In any case, the conclusions many come to about the efficacy of a treatment has to do with the circumstances of the treatment. Broodless, any treatment is much more effective:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm


----------



## 2rubes (Apr 28, 2005)

Hi, powdered sugar saved our hives last year. We had a severe infestation, Apistan stopped working, we were applying it just in the fall and using screen bottom boards to trap mites that were knocked down. Powdered sugar applied 3 times, 7 days apart, about every other month between honey flows (then one treatment about once a month after October) brought our hives from 50mites/24 hours complete with DWV to almost none. It doesn't hurt the brood, hardly disrupts the bees and its so easy. Our hives are 'booming' this year. It was a little time consuming, but felt it was worth it not to have to mess with OA, thymol or other methods. Someone in our club mentioned a weird taste in their honey after using a thymol product.
I agree with Michael, get a mite count before you start treating. 
Janet 
ps, leaving for the WAS Conference in Buellton tomorrow. Anyone going?


----------



## Martha (Feb 14, 2004)

Thanks! These people at my meetings get me worried. When a science man comes and tells us this and that are garbage...well.

They like to push you so much to using all the chemicals. I just knew there was something else to do and they were just following the company line.

I guess the filter in my brain wasn't working that night.


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> When a science man comes and tells us this and 
> that are garbage...well.

If Apistan and/or CheckMite are "useless", this
would be common knowledge among the beekeepers
in your local club long before anyone made the
statement in a larger meeting. This is one of
the values of belonging to a local association,
and exchanging views with beekeepers near you.
Online groups are no replacement for belonging
to and attending local bee association meetings.

> They like to push you so much to using all the 
> chemicals. 

No "they" don't. "They" simply feel obligated
to tell you what off-the-shelf solutions are
available, and which are working against the
local strains of the mite population. There
are a number of people speaking at larger meetings
who are giving a very blatant "wink and a nod"
to using Oxalic Acid dribbling even BEFORE it is
approved by EPA and/or FDA, and this is a major
departure from what one might expect.

> I just knew there was something else to do and 
> they were just following the company line.

This level of paranoia about people who spend
their careers trying to help beekeepers to keep
their hives alive is exactly the sort of view
that ends up decreasing the number of beekeepers.
They don't trust what they are told by extension
and research folks, they go off and try their own
approaches, or the approaches suggested by someone
who heard about some guy who used this or that
approach, and they end up with deadouts. After 
several years in a row of "starting over" with
packages or splits every spring, they give up,
and take up stamp collecting.

As far as which Thymol product to use, each state
most likely has Section 18 approval for only one
of the two, as it has been explained to me that 
one cannot have 2 Section 18s for 2 products with 
the same active ingredient.

Sure powdered sugar can help to knock back varroa
populations during the season, so one does not
have to take colonies out of production, but no
one has ever claimed that it can be the only
treatment used - one still needs something that 
has a better kill rate in fall, after supers are
off, to allow the bees to cluster varroa-free
over winter.

And sure, Oxalic dribbling seems to have shown
some very encouraging results, but at the moment,
there are no packaged products, so it will take
some work on the part of the beekeeper to measure
and mix the proper solution (or buy a pre-mixed
solution).

But don't bite the hands that teach you!


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

ApiGuard has section 3 appoval everywhere but Arkanas

http://www.dadant.com/Apiguard-StateRegistration_000.htm

Dave


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> ApiGuard has section 3 appoval everywhere 
> but Arkanas

Wow, they worked quickly!

That's good news for those that want to use
thymol. I sure don't.


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Jim,

care to elaborate on your thoughts about thymol??

Dave


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> care to elaborate on your thoughts about thymol??

Sure... it has never been as effective as
Apistan, which (knocks on wood) still works
fine around these parts, due to a lack of
beekeepers who misuse it within range of my
bees, which is mostly due to the complete
and utter LACK of other beekeepers within
range of my hives.









It also smells like the dickens, seems to be
absorbed by the wax, perhaps the wood also.
If you don't use Thymol, you can smell it
50 yards away from the hives, even long
after the treatments were done.

I'd suggest checking out Oxalic, which will
be approved and official "real soon now".


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I used oxalic last fall and it worked very well
the problem with it is that like any, um, how to say, "spot treatment", where the mites are only exposed for a short period of time, you really need to use it in the fall when they are broodless so all the mites are phoretic
I just had 1 hive last year and have 6 now but the original one had me a bit concerned with something like 20 mites per day natural drop
I wanted to try a time released treatment between our spring and fall flows and tried Apiguard
oddly enough I never saw any big mite fall, the mites just seemed to go away
it doesn't really seem to make much sense
I just pulled the tray after 5 days and there were almost no mites 

I was under the impression thymol doesn't contaminate the wax, do you have a source of info that says otherwise??

Dave


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Jim, I can agree with almost everything you said. I would like to add....

Every beekeeper (except one in three years) that I have tested for resistant mites fell into one of two catagories. 1)They used the same strips year after year. 2)Beekeepers who place strips in the hive and leave them in over winter. They did not rotate treatment types and did not follow the directions. Thats 99% of the problem.

I run pettis tests on many hives, and apistan and checkmite is very effective for 99% of the beekeepers who DO NOT do the above mentioned items.

As for api-guard, it does work. I donated 50 hives last year for various tests through the state. I can still to this day, smell the thymol from the apigaurd used last summer.Its a year later and its still present. Makes me wonder.... 

I personally think that a good IPM plan involving apiary location and equipment options, seeking genetic bees, understanding the management of hives when related to mites, new queens, and understanding trigger mechanisms of grooming and genetic behavior, all do more than any commercial bought treatment can ever do. 

I personally would rather spend money on new queens that over-winter better, produce more honey, and swarm less. Now thats a good return for the money. Many "average" beekeepers I see treating hives lose many more hives than a "good" beekeeper who understands the larger picture of hive health and queen viability.


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

>Makes me wonder.... 

makes me wonder too
surely somebody has done a gas chromato-thingamajiggy test on the hive products to look at residue (FDA, USDA)
anybody got a link to the results??
inquiring minds want to know









Dave

[ July 23, 2006, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

hmm,

I'll have to read further but the abstract of this would tend to support what you say

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/docs/thymol.pdf 

Dave

[ July 23, 2006, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

this is what I like about OA
(besides the fact it works so good)

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/docs/oaresidue.pdf

no residue

Dave


----------



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

"I can still to this day, smell the thymol from the Apigaurd used last summer"

I did not experience that with Apilife-Var. The smell dissapated quickly. Definately no smell was left before winter. I still wouldn't use it in the spring though.

I've never used Apigaurd.

Apigaurd is a gell while Apilife-Var uses vermiculate wafers. Vermiculate is a dry substance that absorbes liquids. Its used in gardening.

[ July 24, 2006, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: MichaelW ]


----------



## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

MichaelW said:


> "I can still to this day, smell the thymol from the Apigaurd used last summer"
> 
> I did not experience that with Apilife-Var. The smell dissapated quickly. Definately no smell was left before winter. I still wouldn't use it in the spring though.
> 
> Why not? What do you use in Spring? Thanks!


----------



## russbee (Mar 6, 2007)

I used apiguard this past summer. In my wooden hive the smell of thymol was present for about a week after Tx was complete. My polystyrene hives still s elled of thymol almost a month after Tx was complete. So strong that it continued killing mites. other than the odor I had good results.


----------



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I used Apiguard this past fall AND one treatment this spring. The smell dissipated quickly. I wouldn't use a thymol product in the spring if I thought there was any risk of honey being stored in the hive and carried up to honey supers when the flow came. However, knowing that I was going to split the hives down and they will have to build back up before the honey flow, I went ahead and used it. 

The past few years I just didn't treat with anything in spring, but last year I had some signs of PMS in spring, so now I'm deciding some treatments would be helpful in spring.

From my experience, I really can't imagine a hive smelling of thymol months after removal. However, I can't deny other's reports as I'm not there.

Apigaurd and Apilife-Var are good products. As long as the researchers say they are working, don't hesitate to use them as directed.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Residue - Thymol residues can be found in honey after treatments. These residues do not affect taste if applied following harvest [ABJ, 8/05, p672]. After treatment in August/September of preceding year, an average residue content of 0.1 to 0.2 mg/kg of honey can be expected in the following spring harvest, depending on hive type. These residues present no risk and do not alter the taste of honey. Only more than 1.1 mg of thymol per kg of honey is perceived by sensory testing [www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/2003/imdorf_2.pdf - Accessed 7-14-06]. Thymol is not recommended for application during the honeyflow. In beeswax, the application of thymol products leaves relative important residues (500-600 mg / kg). However, it does not accumulate from one treatment to the next and it evaporates rapidly depending on temperature [www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/2003/imdorf_2.pdf - Accessed 7-14-06]. 

Maximum Residue Level (MRL) - In the EU, Thymol is a group II non-toxic veterinary drug that does not require a MRL. The Swiss MRL for Thymol is 0.8 ppm to ensure honey does not exceed the taste threshold of 1.1 ppm. When continuous evaporators are used, there is a chance of Thymol residue in honey above this level, although chance is slight.


----------



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Interesting,

Also start looking for Thymol in food and lotion type products. I've noticed it in a few things. One was a baby diaper rash cream.


Not that I'm going to add it to my spice rack or anything.


----------



## HoneyBeeGood (Mar 20, 2005)

I used Apiguard last autumn and noticed a residual smell for about two weeks after removing the second tray. I also noticed continued elevated mite fall so I contacted the manufacturer, Vita Europe.

Dr. Max Watkins of Vita Europe informed me that, 'The gel may have been removed from the second tray within two weeks but it is still active in the hive for two to three weeks after that - it varies with the behaviour of the particular colony. Mites will continue to fall as they exit the brood cells and get a dose of thymol. Many are already dead in empty cells and are thrown out when the bees are cleaning.'

I use only wooden hives, so cannot comment on polystyrene ones.


----------



## HoneyBeeGood (Mar 20, 2005)

Martha said:


> But the gel the bees get into it so it gets rid of more mites. The downside being it is pretty intense and has killed queens more than the other.


This is the first that I've heard of thymol gel being hard on queens. How many people have experienced queen loss or damage using a thymol gel? Does anyone know of any research data to support this claim?


----------



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

From my own experiences, I use Thymol strips with 100% Thymol in it and no other byproducts and I tread my colonies ONLY on time with OA vapor in December.
The result is, that I did not lost any colony the last two years because of the Varroa. It is true that Thymol penetrates wax and I think that is the reason why it is so successful. It might reach mites in closed cells?? When you place the combs in full sunlight the smell disappears in approx 1-2 hours, UV light destroyed Thymol.
Before I used Thymol strips I also heard stories about a terrible smell 50 meters away. I never smelled this so far. The entrance has to be reduced to 15 cm otherwise bees blowing most of the fumes out of the hive.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have some Thyme honey here. Very pungent and strong flavored, but kind of nice...


----------



## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Axtman, do you make up those strips yourself, or is it a product like Apiguard or something? I would like to hear the method if you make them. 

A guy in an article of American Bee Journal soaked beer coasters in thymol and other essential oils and place those in his hives for mite treatment.

That said, the Apiguard tubs are pretty cheap to treat per hive, so I don't know if I would bother making up my own concoction.

I've never heard of queen problems but
I read an old study a while back that showed some brood dying if Apigaurd evaporated too quickly, and that this is the reason for the maximum temperature threshold to treat, as the hotter it is the faster it evaporates.


----------



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Michael I bought the Thymol strips from http://de.geocities.com/vaporizerklaus/ you find it under “Thymol”.


----------



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Api-life Var will kill brood if placed directly over the brood nest.

dickm


----------



## BeeAware (Mar 24, 2007)

I use thymol strips with pure thymol. Got a bunch of em out of Canada.


----------

