# Installing a nuc into a Langstroth meant for no-foundation frames



## terrynew (May 29, 2016)

Hi, this is my first BeeSource posting and I'm a newbie beek. I'm getting my first 2 nucs this afternoon (Italian imports) and want to go foundation-free (to avoid pesticide buildup in reused foundation and also have reduced varroas and thus require less/no treatment). I'm using Langstroths rather than top bar hives because several local beeks have said overwintering a TBH is challenging for new beeks here in Eastern Ontario, so I'm better off to to go Langstroth for the first few years and then reconsider TBH. Hence I'm posting here rather than the TBH forum.

Here's my problem, then. I have ten-frame deeps and am receiving four-frame nucs, so my first thought was to put three foundation-free frames (I'll call them FFFs) on either side of the nuc frames. But surfing tells me that new/empty FFFs should be placed in between frames with foundation or comb, as guides, to avoid wacky combs. So my second thought was to insert FFFs between the four nucs. So my ten frames left to right would be FFF, NF (nuc frame), FFF, NF, FFF, NF, FFF, NF, FFF, WFF (wax foundation frame).

But the old-school teacher of my beek workshop tells me that I shouldn't break up the four nuc frames when installing. So option 3 is to use more wax foundation frames: FFF, WFF, FFF, NF, NF, NF, NF, FFF, WFF, FFF. Does this sound reasonable? I'll then slowly swap out the WFFs and NFs as my FFFs get comb, moving them to upper deeps until they get above the queen excluder (I'm using deep supers for this reason) and can be harvested when honey-capped.

Or what about option 4? Assuming the two outer nuc frames have honey as well as brood, perhaps I can put a FFF between them and the 2 brood frames? That would give me: WFF, FFF, NF, FFF, NF, NF, FFF, NF, FFF, WFF. This isn't any less WFFs, but it gets the FFFs in among the nuc frames sooner. Is that better? 

Thank you for your thoughts, and wish me luck installing this evening! The weather forecast is for rain, but the bees have been caged in their nucs since this morning so the seller (my workshop instructor) says I need to install them tonite anyways.

...Terry


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I have a buddy doing exactly the same thing, will be doing the second inspection this afternoon. 

So far we have had to re-position almost all the comb they have drawn on the new frames because they started it on the outside corner rather than the middle of the bar -- I actually recommend using standard wedge type bars for foundationless rather than the purpose made ones from Kelley for this reason. A wedge turned sideways gives the bees a stronger clue as to where to start the comb.

So far every bit of comb built is drone comb, also an issue as this will limit the brood nest to those four combs for too long and be a pain in general use.

My personal recommendation is to use frames with foundation on a new package or nuc until you are adding a second brood box. At that point you will have plenty of bees and it will be warm enough for you to pull two frames from the sides of the brood nest to put in the new box in the center, and you can replace them with foundationless frames. The bees will then draw them as worker comb instead of drone comb, and you can repeat the process later to get more foundationless frames drawn properly.

I really dislike warped and lumpy comb, it causes endless trouble during inspections. Foundation doesn't contain that much more pesticide than the bees are going to bring back to the hive anyway, and the mess of getting a hive started well on foundationless frames isn't worth the effort. Ditto for top bar hives -- they were invented to allow people without access to manufactured hives to keep bees (and to make working african bees a little easier), I don't see them as more natural and they have zero advantages over standard Langstroth (or British National) hives. 

Do as you please, but everyone I know with top bar hives here has quit using them.

Peter


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I don't think wax foundation frames will make much more of a difference than simply empty frames. I am not sure just what your 4 frame nucs will look like but for now I will assume you have two frames of brood and two frames of honey and nectar. I would also expect to see a little bit of brood in those honey frames as well. I would definitely not go with example one above which I would call a full checkerboard of new frames. My gut tell me this would be overwhelming to the bees. In fact moving four frames into a 10 frames box exceeds my max expansion limits. I don't like to double the space bees have much less exceed it. So here is what I would plan to do and still keep an eye on how they progress pretty close. FFF, FFF, NF,FFF,NF,NF,NF,FFF,FFF,FFF, Allowing the bees to work on that one new frame. This keeps the brood for the most part together and keeps a new frame for them to work on between drawn frames so they keep it straight. I should not take long before they start comb on that new frame. once they have a good solid start on it then make a further adjustment. NF, NDF, NF,FFF,NF,NF,FFF,NF,FFF,FFF, (NDF equals newly drawn frame) Notice I also added a second new frame sandwiched in at the other end of the brood nest. you will have to decide at the time if this manipulation is a good idea or not. Again is as little as a few days they may or may not have started comb on these two additional new frames. you will just have to see how your bees react. Also realize that the two nuc frames on each end are the honey and pollen frames the brood nest is remaining together. It should also be expanding into that newly drawn comb as well. By the time they may have started doing some work on the outer new frames as well. keep an eye on that because they will like make a mess of it. For the most part the bees should be happy to stay between those two honey and pollen frames. So once again as they get those second set of frames drawn. move in two more new frames and let them get started on those. During this entire time the bees are also building according to their design expanding brood etc and doing their best to organize a proper brood nest. So keep that in mind and make decisions that will keep the most brood together in the center. To me it has an expand from the center carefully then fold the sides back into the middle sort of process to it. Also I have observed that is how the bees expand themselves. they start as a cluster at some point in the hive. and then expand that cluster outward.

Edited to correct symbols for the frames in my examples.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Depends on the bees, some will make nice flat, worker comb and other will cheerfully build comb at right angles to the frames. If yours are "creative" with comb, foundation will help quite a bit to keep them more or less in the frames. 

Believe me, wrestling with warped, bulging, highly bridged comb is NOT fun on a hot day. Bees will get rolled right and left, and they will be VERY angry. This is why I cross wire all my foundation, and even then if it takes a while to get drawn it can be lumpy. 

If you want to use narrow frames in the brood nest, flat combs are imperative, lumps and bulges will result in a lot of comb too shallow for the bees to raise brood in.

Foundation was invented for beekeepers, not for the bees.

Peter


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## Zombee (Mar 20, 2016)

Terry, just for added reference here is my recent experience. A month ago I installed two new packages in medium boxes. They were russian hybrid queens with Italian workers. Of the ten frames I used two new plastic foundation frames in the middle with a foundationless frame in between the two foundation frames. The foundationless frames were wedge top but instead of nailing the wedge on vertical I tacked it on so the wedge was at a 45° angle as close to center as possible. Contrary to what I have heard the bees built the foundation comb first and filled it with the sugar syrup. (Interestingly enough they have not used thes foundation frames for any brood. Only the foundationless.) Then they filled out the others. They have built nice straight comb even on the frames outside of the foundation frames. One hive has a normal amount of drone cells. The other is a little strange with the drone interspersed through the other capped brood. They have just recently started attaching the comb to the sides on the foundationless. Of course before that happens be careful not to tip frames horizontal. I was very particular in making sure the hive was perfectly level from side to side.

So in my experience it was not necessary to alternate every other frame with foundation or comb. I took the chance and it worked out very well. 

Good luck!

Rock


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

I would put the nuc frames together in the middle: FFF, FFF, FFF, NF, NF, NF, NF, FFF, FFF, FFF. Keep the frames pushed tightly together, leaving any extra space on the sides.


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## howlin (May 15, 2016)

i checkered mine. i have photos.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?325570-the-right-foot&p=1430292#post1430292
h.


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## terrynew (May 29, 2016)

Thanks, everyone, for your replies. As always with forums, when you get opposing views you can just throw your hands up and roll the dice, or analyze carefully and look for common ground and compromise. I'm lucky in that I'm starting two hives, so here's what I've chosen to do:

First, I will use foundationless frames, given how many people who use them have said they need less treatments. (I'm using them in Langstroths rather than top bars because top bars are hard to overwinter up here). However I'll start slowly because I agree with Peter, Daniel & David that it's good to go easy on a new hive. So I've started one of my hives, creatively named Hive1, with four nuc frames surrounded by six wax foundation frames, and as they get filled I'll swap two at a time with foundationless frames, moving the swapped ones up to the next chamber (and eventually into the supers, which are also deeps) -- that way I'll slowly remove my foundation frames.

I'll be more adventurous with Hive2. The four nuc frames have a foundationless frame on either side of them, each in turn wrapped by two wax foundation frames at the ends. I'm looking forward to seeing which of the two hives draws comb faster on frames 3 and 8, waxed or foundationless. I'll do a sticky board and/or sugar shake to get a varroa count -- if they're high, and if the foundationless frames are mostly drone brood, I may sacrifice those frames as a varroa lure by popping them into the freezer for a day before returning them. Has anyone out there done this???

I like Daniel's idea of putting a foundationless frame between the nuc's brood frames and honey frames, but I'm not applying it since my particular nucs have equal amounts of brood and honey on their outer two frames (and all brood in the middle two). However I will follow his "expand from the center carefully then fold the sides back into the middle sort of process".

Like Peter says, I'm using a wedge bar turned sideways on my top bar. I do expect drones on the foundationless, but I hope Mike Bush is right when he says that the bees know when to stop this and make workers once they have enough drones.

I like Daniel's idea of using follower boards to not overwhelm the bees with lots of new frames at once. I'll look into this for my second-level brood chambers.

Thanks, Rock & Howlin, for sharing how your more adventurous approaches have worked. I look forward to comparing them with mine.

And I'll report back with updates. Thanks, all!
...Terry


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