# Buying queens from Africanized Area's



## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

I to do not buy queens from any area even remotely close to AHB teritory. In my opinion, you are guaranteed at least some AHB genes in doing so. This doesn't mean that I think those breeders are bad or dishonest people. I just don't want to help AHB along!


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Joel said:


> Ludicrous like aggreeing this is a north south issue. For the record the Mason/Dixon Line is no longer a political boundry so give me a break. I keep bees in NY and SC and I have family in both places and we are all Americans! I do have an agenda.


When in the world did I mention anything about the Mason/Dixon Line, it was you who brought that up. And I just love the way you take my quote without taking your statment which caused my statement. This is your statement from the other thread which cause my ludicrous allegation statement above:



Joel said:


> My suggestion before anyone decides to buy potentially Aficanized stock from anyone is to contact your Priest, Lawyer, bee inspector and neighbors in that order.


And yes your statement above is ludicrous, and no I am not really interested in rehashing this issue for the upteenth time.

Let's see now there is a thread bashing Australian bees, which states the Southern Beeks should do more in providing bees to the rest of the country so we don't have to import, and now a thread bashing Southern beeks for raising queens where they might 'potentially' have some AHB gene. *No, I don't think I will give you a break.* There is a reason Northern beeks want southern bees, and a reason why commercial beeks migrate to the south during the winter. Go and read the other threads and find out why. It doesn't have to be rehashed over and over again and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why.

Quote and comment added:


Joel said:


> 4 years ago? Queens were exceptional as always. But this debate truly is not about Weaver it's about queens from Africanized areas. I met Binford at the 1997 ABF convention in Norfolk, they are the picture of the best beekeeping and quality people. AHB may be bigger than them at this stage of the game. Please prove me wrong.


How about this, Ahb arrived in Texas in 1990 (let's see that is 20 years ago), they spread at and average rate of between 150 to 300 miles per year. That is between 3,000 and 6,000 miles since their arrival. In damage that could be done all the way up to the North pole, has been done. The world hasn't stopped turning, and we don't need to "*contact your Priest, Lawyer, bee inspector and neighbors in that order*", do we.


Kidest Regards
Daniel Unger


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I contend that there are no hives in the US that don't have some AHB genetics in there. Magratory beeks and any queens that come from AHB areas (CA, TX, and FL to name a few) have ensured that the AHB genetics have been spread for decades. If you collect swarms, do cut outs, or open breed you're picking some up there. Supercedures and swarms in ones own hives ensure that you open breed whether you like it or not.

I've got mutts for bees. I add swarms and cut outs to their genetic pool every time I collect one. Non productive queens are removed. When I get a hot hive is it because they have AHB, Buckfast, German, Russian, or unknown genetics? I don't know, I honestly don't care. I simply remove them from the breeding pool. On occasion we all end up with a hot queen no matter what. I pinch the queen and replace her with a homegrown grafted queen from one my nucs. Ironically I just bought 3 B Weaver queens this morning to add known mite resistance to my muts and to see how they do in relation to my queens. If I find they are superior I may graft off of them

There's simply no way large southern breeders could stay in business if they offered queens that are regularly too hot and or unproductive. Thinking one can avoid AHB genetics by not buying from Southern breeders is whistling past the graveyard.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Dan,
I posted this in hopes of getting some real information! Maybe I could suggest spending some time checking with some better sources. Cornell, Penn State, ARS, AAI........ the list goes on and on for any of the hundreds of other scientific reference efforts out there if you do a 10 second search on google. Virtually every source classifes AHB as a pest alongside AFB, Varroa and Cernae. These are our bee experts who are still working to prevent the spread and mimimize the impact of the what is virtually a catalog of negative AHB traits to US beekeepers and others. Then maybe we can get past the rehash stage. For some reason they haven't read your posts saying AHB impact is complete and there is no more reason for concern. AHB have traveled 6000 miles in the US since 1990's  like to see where you got that figure. Okay, I'll concede don't call your priest but really do call the others if you're looking to get into raising AHB. I'm looking for facts and agree, no need for you to keep rehashing. In the mean time share some of your research resources with the rest of us.

I'll stand on the platform promoting AHB in any form as being neutralized and safe is simply not responsible beekeeping at this stage of the development.

Here's a few links to get you going.

http://vivo.library.cornell.edu/individual/vivo/individual16544 (older article for some perspective)
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/projects/projects.htm?ACCN_NO=414849
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/phpps/pdep/target_pest_disease_profiles/ahb_profile.html


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

The only way you are going to defeat AHB is by breeding them down to gentleness. They are already out here, and have been. Dee Lusby is in the thick of it -- on the front lines if you will -- and her bees are fine. Do they have some african genetics? Yes, probably. Are they African Bees? Nope. The henhouse door has been open for 20+ years, and you are recommending shutting it now? This is futile and foolish. There have always been Hot bees. There always will be (maybe). You cull them out and move on. I am just a few hours north of Weaver, and half my ferals are gentle as can be. Many others are not, but I give them a chance. The only real mean bees I have gotten in the last couple of years came out of Florida and cut-out of barns here. I also had mean bees in New Mexico (north of the line) and New York, and Louisiana. There are many inexperienced beeks in Vermont who think they have "africanized" bees, just because they are hot. I would like to hear some common sense from some ancient beeks out there from the 1950s/60s talk about their experience with mean bees as this is before my time...


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## Randall Clark (Oct 29, 2009)

Y'all sound like politicians arguing their point is correct. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Do what works for you in your particular area, share your opinions... but keep the conversation civil. And for the record for those that may not know, what possibly makes African Bees any more dangerous than any other honey bee is not the power or strength of their venom. It is the number of bees in which stings a person due to their aggressiveness when riled up. This forum should be about learning, teaching, sharing positive information and advice. NUFF SAID


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## catdance62 (Jan 16, 2010)

I am interested in this thread because I live in an area with identified AHBs and am trying to avoid getting these in my hive. I am new to beekeeping BTW. 
I ordered bees from Rossman Apiaries that are due to arrive in May. From what I understand, one of the preventative measures for avoiding getting AHBs is requeening every year. Is this true? And if so, should I always buy a queen from a specific area? I realize now that Rossman is in Georgia, and Georgia has AHBs, but that doesn't mean that Rossman has an AHB problem.
Thanks in advance


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

I went beyond the standards of common decency and of giving someone the benefit of the doubt, and am correcting that entry directed towards Joel.


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## Claressa (Oct 1, 2009)

Unfortunately, I do not have a PhD in Entomology (mine is in Microbiology and Molecular Genetics) but David DeJong does. He will be giving the keynote address at the University of Florida 2010 Bee College. Here's the link: http://www.entnemdept.ufl.edu/HoneyBee/extension/Bee College/2010 Bee College Program.pdf. Dr. DeJong has nothing but good things to say about AHBs in Brazil _when managed appropriately_. Here's a link for one article: http://www.beebusters.com/abj_note.html

Returning to genetics, which _is_ my specialty, I will make the human analogy again (and yes, I do realize that drones are haploid but this is only an analogy.) There is such a thing as Sickle Cell Anemia (Tay-Sachs and some other rare RBC deforming genetic diseases) because when you inherit only one gene from a parent it confers considerable resistance to malaria. This is a handy, genetic trait when you live in areas with endemic disease. If you inherit a gene from both parents it is deadly....

Without modern intervention. Which brings us back to _A. mellifera_ and people like the Weavers. If AHB genetics (not AHBs, with all their nasty habits) can confer resistance to pests like SHBs and varroa, then why not intentionally include them in your stock? This seems _especially_ true if your source is a a trustworthy one, with a record of exceptional products, good customer service, and a replacement policy for anything "mean" that slips through. If someone has managed to separate superior hygienic traits from aggression then I'm all for giving it a try. Saying that all our problems will be solved by the Russian bees (or put your favorite panacea here) is like saying we don't need tetracycline because we have penicillin, in my opinion. 

Americans are mutts from all over. Our bees should be too, I think. Outbred populations are always the most resistant (I'm tempted to make another analogy involving _H. sapiens_ royalty, but I shall refrain.) Though, returning to that North/South divide, I do have to wonder if AHBs could tolerate a northern winter.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Catdance -Contact your state inspection or extension serive. They'll provide you with good information on how close the issue is to you. Inspection can be a pain but in a problem they can be a good tool.

Typically it takes a couple of brood cycles to identify an AHB queen as it may take awhile to get enough AHB individual bees to cause a problem. 6 weeks or so is a good average. Any bees can be hot, if you're in an AHB area be vigilant for hot bees and requeen if they become difficult. Always a Good Idea when your new to the craft to look around. Somewhere nearby is an experiance guy who most likely will mentor you through the beginning. Requeeing yearly has many benefits including better brood and thus honey production in many cases as well as reduced swarming and in AHB area's clear knowledge of your stock. Marking your queens will help as well since you'll know if she is superceded or replaced.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the links Clerssa, this is stuff we can see and learn from!


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Claressa said:


> Though, returning to that North/South divide, I do have to wonder if AHBs could tolerate a northern winter.


Claressa: I am glad it was you who said this and not me, as I have stated this in numerous other post many times before at the point of ridicule. Makes me wonder how/why we choose to forget that AHB do not form an effective cluster; and therefore cannot survive the harsh winters. Many also, choose to ignore the 34th parallel line of demarcation. This is part of the point that I was trying to show in my previous post on this thread. This line of demarcation was reached long ago in this country. Also, makes me wonder why government money was given to Penn State to research Ahb. 

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Claressa said:


> Unfortunately, I do not have a PhD in Entomology (mine is in Microbiology and Molecular Genetics) .


 Thanks for some good links and insight. It's good to be challenged with facts and have to think! 

AHB do not seem to have broken the climate barrier in Europe but after their failure to thrive in LA there could be other factors holding them back.

I'll read the links and check back!


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## Claressa (Oct 1, 2009)

You're very welcome, Joel. I hate when people make arguments without documentation also. I'm too OCD to tolerate that!

Does anyone have an estimate of AHB damage in 'infested' areas? I grew up with the Swarm 1970s movies and am sure they exaggerate, but how much? It seems folks south of the border were in a bind because they didn't really have a history of beekeeping prior to AHB introduction (hence, the whole enterprise in the first place.) Could AHB aggression be ameliorated by our native population of EHB drones? I know it's been difficult to flood an already infested area and completely breed them out. Has it really been that bad in the US?

Maybe I am ill-informed and "whistling Dixie"


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## catdance62 (Jan 16, 2010)

thanks Joel, I appreciate the info


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

While I don't consider myself exactly _ancient_  I've been in the biz for a while. Yes, there have always been hot bees and yes they get pinched _if we notice them_. We have ordered some queens from AHB effected territory (hard not to on a commercial level) and while _we_ could be more tolerant of hot bees, our customers and our land owners expect (and deserve) otherwise. We have not seen any increase in aggressiveness, but if a particular part of the country or a particular breeder showed marked change, we would do business elsewhere.
This is not a North/South issue. Quite correctly northern beeks need southern queens and thankfully the responsible queen breeders are doing their best to hold the line. Hopefully the huge influx of European bees across the southern tier will dilute the AHB genetics into something more manageable.

Encouraging complacency and nonchalant acceptance of this pest is not in anyone's best interest. How long do you think migrators from uncontested AHB territory would last at their northern locations if they set down an apiary of AHB alongside the road used by the horse and buggy Amish to go to church (which we do now, with no problem)? Or 1/8 of a mile from a school yard (as we do now, with no problem)?
A hive's demeanor can change over the course of the summer due to size, weather, and outside stimulus; stimulus such as a 12 year old riding his ATV on the path 50' away from the bees late in the afternoon. "Some AHB genetics" is one thing but undiluted AHB is entirely different. "Some AHB genetics" might get him stung, undiluted AHB could kill him.
I suspect it would take approx 1 publicized AHB attack and we would lose many of our bee yards. 
Wisconsin and much of the upper midwest, isn't like some areas where you might have a chance to isolate bee yards and if the yard is AHB only the beekeeper and hapless varied wildlife would know. You couldn't go 1/4 mile in most of our area without running into a farm house and the vacant land between is either used recreationally or is managed by farmers, neither of which would tolerate AHB. 
Commercials would not be the only ones negatively impacted. Hobbyists would mostly go the way of the dodo. You don't see many hobbyists in uncontested AHB territory, certainly not in close proximity to people; it is just too dangerous. In our litigious society, how much liability insurance would you feel is enough, even if zoning didn't outright outlaw honeybees?

Someone asked earlier why Mexico wasn't allowed to bring their bees into the CA bloom. The simple answer is that people, pets and livestock would die as a result, period. IMO, anyone who thinks AHB is something to encourage just does not understand the ramifications. It was this sort of naivete that brought these bees to our hemisphere to begin with.
Sheri
I would like to add that I feel Australian imports are a more immediate risk than AHB, and something which we could (and should) control. Will we be assessing the impact of another devastating mite in 10 years? Very likely.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Claressa said:


> Has it really been that bad in the US?
> 
> Maybe I am ill-informed and "whistling Dixie"


That depends on who you ask. Ask the beeks that *aren't* familiar with the problem and they think that anywhere there has been an AHB sighting people and animals are being attacked and killed daily. Ask those that live in those areas and proper managment techniques have been implemented to deal with the problem. I have had one colony which exhibited strong AHB trait. This was purchased and the queen had been raised in an area known to have AHB populations, an area well south of me (Woodville, Texas area), and which bordered a large national forest where commercial beeks would not be allowed. I split and requeened and solved the problem. I have a BeeWeaver queen which I worked today without gloves or veil and only smoke. My son was gloved and veiled up and dropped a frame of bees and I received a horrifying one sting; although 20 to 30 flew in the air and I did receive about a dozen head butts.

Claressa, what you may not know is that this issue has been hashed and rehased in many threads with adequate research referenced. Just do a search for "africanized", (a thread title search otherwise you will be overwhelmed. The problem is great south and along the demarcation line "the 34th parallel", and in most areas 50 miles north of that line the problem is not noticable. However, this line will bulge somewhat in areas which have milder and dryer winters north of this line. In one of the other threads a NASA mapped out these areas provided by one who posted.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger

P.S. in some of these prior threads Dejong's work has been also referenced.


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## Claressa (Oct 1, 2009)

DRUR: Pish and tosh! Polar bears don't live in Florida because they can't. AHB's don't live in Vermont because they can't? Can you provide some links on that 34th parallel thing? Having been on many a government research awards committee, I can guess that Penn got the money because they had a very good proposal. They are likely to be considered the 'control' group much like the 'placebo' group of Viagra trials and whatnot. However, I think they are collaborating with Keith S. Delaplane at University of Georgia. Thus, having bees on both sides of the Mason-Dixon.

Lest it be misunderstood, I am in no way advocating the advancement of AHBs in the US, only beneficial AHB traits that might be conferred from open matings in AHB endemic areas. In short, I see no problem with buying queens from *responsible* breeders in Africanized areas.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Claressa said:


> DRUR: Pish and tosh! Polar bears don't live in Florida because they can't. AHB's don't live in Vermont because they can't? Can you provide some links on that 34th parallel thing?


Yes, as previously noted, this has been discussed in the other threads. In particular you might find (mid 2009 thread) which has the NASA map which maps out areas where AHB could be enviromentally surviavable. Sorry, I just don't have the time, this time of year to go back and dig up this research. But, I will say this that Dr. Dejong references this demarcation line in some of his research. If you are going to a meeting he is going to speak at you need to present the question to him. I kept bees in the late 70's and early 80's and this line was the same before they ever reached here.



Claressa said:


> I can guess that Penn got the money because they had a very good proposal.


I was a delegate to the 1980 Republican convention in Dallas in which Ronald Reagan was elected and my experience tells me that most of this money (a.k.a. pork) is awarded as political favors.



Claressa said:


> Lest it be misunderstood, I am in no way advocating the advancement of AHBs in the US, only beneficial AHB traits that might be conferred from open matings in AHB endemic areas.


Can't agree with you there. It was the miscegenation of the African and European races that caused this problem in the first place. Personally, I feel selection of resistant traits from within the race of Europeans is the answer and not the genetic modification of those races, whether it be naturally or induced by modern science. This corruption of the seed (Gen. Chpt. 6) is what brought about the judgment of God with the Noahatic flood to begin with.



Claressa said:


> In short, I see no problem with buying queens from *responsible* breeders in Africanized areas.


That is as long as they implement proper management techniques to minimize the problem.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


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## Claressa (Oct 1, 2009)

I shall diligently research AHBs and the NASA data. There is certainly arbitrary partisanship involved in government awards, but not as much as the voting public thinks despite the occasional $5000 toilet. The money really does go to a worthy cause in most cases. If you care to start a tangental thread I'll tell you why it is perfectly right and proper that we genetically test bears, or whatever your Senator has made seem ridiculous.

I guess my question is, do you think it is possible to keep AHBs (genetic traits merely or full-blown, you make the distinctions and qualifications) out of the population at large? For how long? Shouldn't we just prepare for the inevitable? Why not?

Thanks in advance for you insights.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

I live north of Los Angeles and we had pure AHB in my region. I am on the edge of the Mojave Desert. There is NO bee saturation north of me. That is why AHB existed here in it's pure form. I don't have enough time to explain all my experiments but AHB were bad. They were one of my reasons for leaving the commercial market. I kept a few to see if I could breed a disease resistant bee that would produce honey. The AHB came here from below Tuscon AZ. with a old commercial beek. About 30 hives. That was 12 years ago. He claimed that the alfalfa variety here would not produce honey. His problem was his pure AHB did not store honey. 60,000 bees would have brood end bar to end bar and 1/2 pint of stored honey. The cross hives I have now store honey, are workable with minimal protection and are completely disease resistant. That is good stock. I have no faith in commercial queens anymore. I requeened every year when I had a commercial operation. I think the USA breeders crossbred the limited gene pool too many times. The swarms in my area are all partially AHB now but workable as they are in the L.A. area. I have no idea why the AHB became gentler in this area but they did. If you work with bees, you have to be carefull, but there are no dead dog stories or hysteria as there was when they first arrived.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

My understanding is that, as AHB's move north, they lose some of their aggressiveness. They have found AHB DNA in bees in Maine from migratory beeks. Those bees are no more aggressive than other breeds and are only discernible by test, not by sight or other characteristics.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

OK - Here's what I've gleaned, the 1957 experiment in Brazil to breed desriable AHB traits into EHB's in effect has continued defacto over the past 63 years and between nature and human efforts real progess has been made. Dr. Dejongs observations shouldn't suprise me. It almost sound as though they are no longer really an issue there although some of that is attibuted to mgt rather than gentle stock. Additionally what I hear you saying Cleressa and maybe Dan as well is it's not about accepting or promoting AHB it's about dealing with an issue that's here anyway. That has always been my position with other bee problems since we got wiped out by Varroa in 1997. I have figured the sooner we get the problem the sooner we get through it. Not the case with AHB since being migratory and keeping all our bees are in outyards and one bad AHB incident and the resulting fallout could ruin my life if my neighbor gets killed or injured plowing near my hives or could make it impossible to get insurance (we carry 2 million), impossible to find locations and place my family at risk of living in a house we'd build from empty hive bodies once the one we own is repossed. That's the perspective I have to see through. For me and others it is about feeding my family but even for the hobbyist the scenerio which is presented both by research and by the media indicate in this litiganous society we live in, if I bought bees from a known AHB area and had an incident that is AHB based response that seems like a prima facie case in court when I have to defend myself civilly. Lawyers here - is this accuarte? I'm not seeing anything in the research which tells me the aggression has been controlled but maybe abated to a managable degree.

The management practices tell me there are still aggression issues beyond the gentle stock we've come to know and is it possible in an apiary of 500, 1000, 2000 hives to manage in that detail? If the goal is to work through this instead of avoid we need to establish a baseline for this new "breed" or the coming breed of bees? I'm assuming Cleressa we could establish this baseline through genetic identification? Who will do this. Calderone started on this but where's the results? How do we as responsible beekeepers make the most responsible choice for purchasing when you have such a wide range of breeders. Me Ordering a queen from Weaver with 8000 hives saturating the gene pool and someone ordering from a southern California Breeder who may not. All we have when we see the ad and visit the website is what we are told. Like all advertising the truth sometimes is not up front? 

Dan, I remember the 34th paralell discussion and am aware this is the expert line for advance in the US. I accept that demarcation with what we know in Euope/Africa. My thought on that would be where AHB are the common bee they don't have the cross breeding with EHB they have here which may give them better survivablilty traits and allow them to move further north than 34.

If I get time to set up a poll next week I think it would be good to hear anonymously from anyone ordering bees from AHB areas, how many they are ordering and what results they are having in relation to negative traits. I wish we had more data from that arena.

I'll concede I'm trying to stave off the inevitiable as long as possible, it just seems this is a much more final threat than say cernae. When you think about the management aspects multiply this times 250 hives, 500 hives, 2500 hives, 25000 hives. The risk of the getting the bad gentic queen multiplies to the power of 10. Commericial beekepeers in Florida talk to me about pulling up to a yard and just from the engine noise being able to pick out the Africanized hives before they can park due to agitation and activity of the bees. I have to think about the property owner who drives by my hives daily on his gator. There's a difference in my book when Sheri manages/evaluates a hive with AHB genetics and my neighbor the bee-haver does the same and I get a problem wither through cross breeding or an incident due to his irresponibilty and I'm next door. 

It's easy to manage a few hives and say there is no problem. When I order queens from any supplier, 200 at time, I see some pretty clear diveristy in at least a small percentage of every shipment. I might order 2 queens and do fine, chances are I'm going to get one of the hot ones (not hot like buckfast but hot like Africans) Weavers would replace in an order of 200 or 300 hundred and just as likely I might not be there on week 6 after requeeing when 2500 AHB workers out of a population of 25 -30K are defending my hive against a landowner or his pet. 

How do we qualify the good Africans from the bad ones? Aren't the Florida AHB seperate from the Brazilain AHB spread and less cross bred and more aggressive?


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

according to everything I have ever read about the africanized honey bee, they possess genes of both the european honey bee as well as african.

In tropical climates, they maintain primarily african genetics and behaviors. As they move into temperatures that are not tropical, but cooler, the genetics adapt, taking on the traits of the european bees being the dominant.

AFB can move into cooler areas, but as they move, their african genetics will gradually be replaced or made to be the recessive genetics and they will behave as the dominant european genetics determine. 

If they do not adapt genetics, they will not survive as african primary colonies and die out.

by the time they reach say , Nebraska, where I am, they will likely either die out due to africanized genetics not being able to survive in our winters or they will have adapted to european traits and be likely as manageable as the 'normal' european bees we have here already.

Big Bear


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Should you buy from a queen supplier from an AHB area? I see no reason not to, if their bees are gentle. It is actually helping the EHB line, not hurting it. Should we be concerned about AHB in migratory hives? Yes we should, but we already have protocols in place to manage this.

I have to wonder if there is a growing amount of winter die-offs and if so, would that be an indication of AFB genetics in our EHB lines. 


The balance of this post is the background for my stance.

JohnK & Sheri bring up a point that it seems most are ignoring. There are two completely different things to consider about the AHB. This first, everyone seems to concentrate on is the eventual range of the AHB. The one they ignore is the migratory use of AHB colonies. These are two completely different issues. 

The natural range and spread of the AHB is constrained by their genetics. They do not exist below the 32nd parallel in the Southern hemisphere, nor above the 34th in the Northern Hemisphere. Their inability to handle the cold, their foraging style and other behavioral aspects dictate that they will not progress "as-is" from their natural range. They not only tend to cluster less effectively against cold, but depend on fairly stable foraging to supply their needs. As one travels north, its not just the temperatures that change, the honey flows become shorter and more intense and the winters and dearths longer. This type of flow and dearth cycle favor the EHB over the AHB and are just as important in limiting the range of the AHB as is temperature. We can’t truly do much to impact the eventual range of the AHB other than flood the areas of their “natural” range with EHB in hopes of diluting the AHB genetics. 

We can manage our habits to minimize the use of suspected AHB colonies for migratory pollination. This is done already by the aspect that a migratory Beekeeper will not purposefully use “defensive bees”. To do so would not make economic sense. This same behavior is also diluting the AHB genetics by our “unnatural” selection. So in effect, we are minimizing the impact of the AHB in US Beekeeping. 

I would imagine that if someone outside of the AHB natural range buys a queen from an AHB area and it turns out to be an AHB queen, one of two things will happen. They will either pinch it due to excessive defensiveness or that colony will re-queen itself within a year as it cannot survive outside its natural range. Also as this thread implies, they are not likely to order from that supplier again. Selecting out that supplier and maximizing the EHB suppliers. Now you may be concerned about swarms the colony may throw, or drones polluting the EHBs in the area. But genetics will still rule the day. Genetics do not favor the AHB in northern latitudes. The very things that favor an AHB in southern latitudes are detrimental to it in the northern latitudes. What behaviors define the AHB? 

Per IFAS literature:

Defensiveness
Frequent Swarming
More Absconding
Less Honey Storage
Smaller Colonies
Less selective nesting
Faster growth (Maturation)
Higher percentage of Drones
Higher Propolis Production
Flighty when disturbed

(Entomology and Nematology Department, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida. Original publication date February 2009. Revised November 2009. Visit the EDIS Web site at http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu.)

Of these traits, only two would be beneficial to the AHB in northern latitudes, defensiveness and propolis production. The balance of traits would be detrimental. So our problem with allowing AFB genetics into the EHB lines are that the 2 things we do not want, are the only ones that would be likely to transfer into the line. Of interest is that we have already, or are currently, breeding these very traits out of the EHB lines. Why would we think we could not do the same to the AHB over time.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Very good post, Mark (also jbeshearse, as I just read it too)
First I would like to say I have seen videos from a friend in Honduras of his AHB bee yards. No, he does not have to treat for mites. Yes, they are workable. Yes, he does make honey and it is tasty, but average yields leave much less than EHB. Swarming is a constant battle. Once they reach any size it is harder to keep them in the boxes. While he can keep _small_ swarms close to habitation, once any size is reached (which is quick since they are so prolific) they _must_ be moved to a less populated area. Even so, livestock and children are a concern. His protective clothing must be much more than adequate and when working full size colonies you could barely see the yard between the number of bees hitting the camera and the amount of the smoke in the yard. Anyone thinking they are a non issue should take a look at the Brazilian smokers for sale. 

Many commenting on this subject seem to be thinking in terms of the "natural" gradual spread of this invasive species and are encouraged by the fact(?) that AHB will not survive the winter at some arbitrary lattitude. What they need to keep in mind is that there are hundreds of thousands of bees moved from AHB territory every spring to pollination and honey production locations further north, many with newly mated queens. It is irrelevant that AHB won't survive the winter to someone attacked by AHB in September in, say, New York by a colony brought north only a few months earlier. By winter those bees will be back in a warmer clime where they WILL survive. Constant monitoring and culling out bad genetics is what queen rearers effected are doing. This will be an ongoing battle for many years, as long as pure AHB swarms enter our country. When (and if) we see a gentler hybrid working it's way back south we can maybe breath a sigh of relief. 
That line of demarcation being bandied about is much further south than indicated, unless TX and FL and much (all?) of CA wants to be in the same category as Mexico when it comes to safely "importing bees".


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> By winter those bees will be back in a warmer clime where they WILL survive


By that you are referring to comm beeks shipping said hives to southern locations for the winter?

Not all beeks, not even the majority of beeks I'd wager are commercial beeks that are buying pkgs and/or queens that may be ahb.

For those non commercial ones, winter and cold will have a large impact on the bees and they will die out as they do not maintain sufficient stores to survive winter.

for those commercial beeks who do bandy about hives every season, it is in their best interest to be on watch for their bee's behavior. and where they are buying/bringing them from.

Big Bear


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

Every year, I check the Dept of Ag Africanized Bee Map, and I won't buy any bees or queens that come from those areas. Yes, I know that bees are moved around in all those states, but I can't risk buying mean bees or a queen from a known Africanized area. My hives are in populated areas, and I won't put the neighbor kids at risk just because I want bees in my backyard. 
Just saying'...


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Brenda is correct to be concerned IMO. 
At risk of repeating myself, that colony that will most likely die over winter can wreak havoc before it does so. While there might be not much danger of permanent infestation, the _perception_ of real danger has the potential to put many beeks and hobbyists out of business. One isolated attack from a hobbyist's hive in say, Omaha, would have wider implications than maybe realistically warranted but the results would be the same. Would you choose to risk your neighbor's kids once there were reports of AHB attacks? Would your neighbors even give you that choice?
Sheri


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

I agree, concern is appropriate. Boycott, probably not. You should always be concerned as to any beekeeping activity, especially in an urban/suburban setting. Order your queens from an established reputable supplier and you "should" have no problems. But as with any re-queening activity, you need to access her at the various stages of her life for quality on all aspects, including over defensiveness.

And guys, I am a new hobby beekeeper, certainly no expert. So my advice is worth what you paid for it.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I am with Joel, JohnkandSherry, and Brenda on this one. For those of us that are not or never will be considered migratory commercial beeks the AHB is a potential serious problem. It doesn't take but one aggressive hive to upset most of our neighborhoods. Therefore shutting us down. I live in the country and still have several neighbors in a 1 mile area. I would bet that the majority of honey sold in the US is collected under this kind of conditions, with a lot coming from densely populated areas. I understand completely the pollination needs and the need for migratory beeks, but most of the spread of AHB is done because of ease of availability and price, meaning profit margin. Greed is the driving force that creates most problems in this country. Look at Washington. So if we buy possibly AHB genetics we have only ourselves to blame.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I would have to say that perception already exists. The mass media introduced that notion into the public's mind long ago. people are already terrified by the very idea of "killer bees", hence many of the ridiculous making of laws and ordinances restricting or prohibiting beekeeping that we are currently fighting against already.

mind you, I am not suggesting that people intentionally import africanized bees into areas that have not undergone adaption.

I am saying that IF ahb finds it's way into an 'uncommon' area, it will most likely be the result of comm beeks shuffling bees around or package/queen sellers letting them 'slip through'.

most hobby beeks and probably sideliners will be more particular about where their bees come from and hopefully buy bees or catch them only from local beekeepers in their area.

notice also, I am not saying ALL commercial beeks will transport ahb, intentionally or accidentally, but the volume and mobility that commercial beeks have over the rest are the behaviors that would most impact the situation.

so, I will repeat myself, by people being careful and selective about their source of bees, the chances of such movements of ahb are mitigated.

putting it plain and simple if you are intent on not getting ahb...

If you don't live in a known ahb area and you want to minimize the chance of getting ahb's, buy from a local source.

if you live in an area known to have them, buy from a seller not in an ahb area and keep your eyes peeled for local ahb sneaking around your hives.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

jbeshearse said:


> And guys, I am a new hobby beekeeper, certainly no expert. So my advice is worth what you paid for it.


Common sense is becoming rare, and thus more valuable, all the time.
Sheri
PS, Big Bear, yes, we will all have to be more diligent. Let's face it, both commercials and hobbyists buy bees from down south, that is where the bees grow, lol. As commercials, we sometimes buy from areas that may be impacted, but we keep a close tab on customer's feedback as well as our own evaluations.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I can't argue with you there. 

Big Bear


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

So many people have commented not to worry about the reparable suppliers in AHB area's

I disagree, they don't know who the open mated queen that they sold mated with. No one will know until the hive reaches full strength. Thats too late for a hobby beekeeper, with bees in a residential back yard.

We need the southern queen producers, to hopefully water down the ahb's bad habits, & I hope they do. I agree that the AHB's have some good qualities that we can benefit from. But as a backyard beekeeper, I can't afford to take the chance.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Joel,
According to the literature I've seen concerning AHB it seems that I am in the heart of the most AHB-friendly region here in the U.S.A.

When I relocated back here to the Tucson/Marana area of Arizona I hadn't brought any bees with me, since I knew there was a feral colony living beneath my parents mobile home. My intention was to transfer that colony into langstroth hives and then divide as much as possible. I did this for two seasons and at that time stopped dividing once I had six colonies.

Unfortunately a kindly neighbor thought he would do my parents a favor - he had the colony removed/destroyed while they were away for a two week vacation. So instead of hiving the bees that once lived beneath my parents mobile home I had to go down the street one block and hive the colony that was living there, beneath a friends mobile home. This was in 1996 or '97.

These bees had _Varroa_ mites, but no other pests or diseases, if present, were obvious. At this time I used no treatments and used walk-away splits to make increase. The hives built-up fast, stored large amounts of honey, but were much more defensive than I was familiar or comfortable with. Anything dark that moved, like dark colored shoes or clothing articles would be covered with stings (like a pincushion) after working the hives.

-------------------
The behaviors of my colonies that originated from this cut-out, multiplied by walk-away splits varied some, especially in defensive behavior. They also seemed more sensitive to environmental factors than the usual EHB colonies are. If there were a sudden dearth, or animals bothering hives, their defensive behavior would increase.

Then I got some Cordovan Italian queens, began breeding from them and carefully screening out any that continued to demonstrate traits I don't want in my bees. So far this has been working out very well, with the Cordovan trait helping me to keep track of genetics. I find that the vast majority of the queens that are homozygous for Cordovan color, even if mated with non-Cordovan drones (possibly even AHB drones), produce vigorous colonies that are productive and gentle.

My suggestion is that if "buying queens from Africanized areas", expect that there is a possibility that they may contain AHB genes, even if they don't ever exhibit undesirable AHB traits. And if queens from areas considered non-Africanized, ditto.

Most honey bees will sting with appropriate motivation, some colonies, even if they have absolutely no African genetics can be extremely defensive. I've recollections from the 1970's of various colonies, in the Southern California area that were so defensive, they make most of the AHB horror stories seem mild.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

The question being "Would I buy Queens from a known AHB area?"

The answer is "No". 

Many had said already and I agree. The first time a AHB colony gets loose in a residential area that will be the end of hobby beekeeping in a within city limits. Once the cat is out of the bag it will be too late. If the cold temperaters are keeping AHB in the southern part of the U.S. then I see no reason to give them a quick ride north even if it is just for the summer.

What I don't get is why bother? There are several queen producers in MD, PA, MN and OH. I'm sure there are others. Even the local clubs around here have queen breeders. The Colonial Beekeepers here in Hampton has gone to all local bees. No packages, only locally produced nucs.


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

I've had Weavers for a couple years now. IMO they are the 2nd to best bees I have. They are only out preformed by a feral swarm I caught. Knowing that it is feral because I know they barn they came out of. My Weavers are very gentle. I have the All Americans. Which I believe that is all Bweaver offers now. 

I order bees from AHB for the simplicity and availability. I can make a drive down to Weavers and pick up spme bees and visit some family on the way. Makes it a nice little trip. 

I have, do, and will continue to buy by bees from places like Bweaver and Tecumseh. Though I have never had to make the call, but if I called either one of them and said my bees were "hot" they would replace the queen for me right then. Customer service go's along way with me. So I will continue to buy until I have a real good reason not to.


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## Claressa (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm not certain of the population dynamics, but won't sticking solely to local sources of bees/queens eventually lead to a bunch of inbred bees? How local are we talking? Down the street? Within the state? Within the same USDA growth zone? I return to the analogy of the Windsors. Nice people, but I wouldn't want my daughter to breed with one.

Please understand that I am not seeking to minimize the AHB problem. I'm in metro Atlanta, so maybe we don't get reports on the extent of the damage. We're not in an AHB affected area, but I cannot remember the last time I heard about "killer bees" attacking someone. Maybe my local news doesn't find it sexy enough when it happens elsewhere. We have a thriving urban beek association, many of whom do order from AHB areas. Being mostly hobbyists, they diligently keep track of their hives' temperaments. After all, a mean hive in a residential area, that's not AHB, results in just as much litigation and general apiphobia. None of us want that!

I'm a hobbyist who aspires to sideliner, but never migratory. My couple of hives are in my back yard and I can check them daily. I generally do. I would notice if they started getting mean and correct it immediately. Thus, I have no qualms ordering from AHB endemic areas. For a commercial gig I can see where that could be an easily overlooked problem. 

It seems the question of whether one should be amenable to buying possible AHB-type queens depends on how much vigilance one can maintain.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

I understand the reluctance to order a queen form an area in the known AHB range. 

That said, they are already “getting rides” north, and have been for years. There is no way to be sure you are not getting AHB genes with the local queens/packages/nucs you are buying. All you can do is selectively manage your hives by not allowing any queen with excessive defensive offspring (or other undesirable traits) to continue. This is no different from a queen/packages/nuc you might buy from an area infested with AHB. If queens are available locally, then by all means those are what you should buy, and not just because you may think them to not have AHB traits. They should be proven “winners” in your area. Your risks are higher but in limited options, they may be acceptable. 

My problem with this entire thread is that it originated from a queen producer that simply stated the obvious truth. “I cannot say with certainty there are not AHB genes in my stock”. He was honest about it. I would rather order from him than one that, lets give them the doubt, is so oblivious to reality that they can state otherwise. Your only real option is to get an instrumentally inseminated queen. (price one of those and see what her longevity and brood pattern looks like). I learned long ago that a salesman can promise the moon, but few can deliver it. 

Also:

The public’s outcry at the first death, or near death from a bee sting will have the same results whether it is an AHB or EHB. I would venture to guess that more deaths occur from allergic reactions to a bee sting than a full blown AHB attack. Misinformed municipalities that outlaw beekeeping are actually exposing their population to more danger from bees not less. The best defense against overly defensive feral hives is a saturation of managed docile EHBs.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227649&highlight=africanized

This is a thread on this forum where much of the discussion has already taken place. There are many scientific studies referred to and reference in this thread for those who want the truth. It starts out slow but finishes strong.

Kindest Regards
DRU


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

> Brenda is correct to be concerned IMO.
> At risk of repeating myself, that colony that will most likely die over winter can wreak havoc before it does so. While there might be not much danger of permanent infestation, the perception of real danger has the potential to put many beeks and hobbyists out of business. One isolated attack from a hobbyist's hive in say, Omaha, would have wider implications than maybe realistically warranted but the results would be the same. Would you choose to risk your neighbor's kids once there were reports of AHB attacks? Would your neighbors even give you that choice?
> Sheri


Do you people seriously believe that there are no urban beekeepers in Dallas, Austin, Waco, San Antonio, Houston, Tyler, Ft Worth, Abilene, San Angelo, etc, etc, etc. Texas is the 2nd most populous state. California is first. Both have AHB bees and you don't see bee attacks in the paper every day. No panic in the streets. No bans within a mile of schools. People even ride horses (although not many buggies) up and down the road sides in most of the state. It's past time to get over it. It's just not the huge thing some of you want to make it out to be. We also have rattle snakes, water moccasins, scorpions, red wasps, yellow jackets, and spiders that can kill you. As of last nights tornado there is also a 400 pound tiger roaming around Van Zandt county. And yet, somehow, I managed to make it to 55.


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## Claressa (Oct 1, 2009)

jbeshearse said:


> My problem with this entire thread is that it originated from a queen producer that simply stated the obvious truth. “I cannot say with certainty there are not AHB genes in my stock”. He was honest about it. I would rather order from him


Amen, brother.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

valleyman,



valleyman said:


> It doesn't take but one aggressive hive to upset most of our neighborhoods. Therefore shutting us down.


That one aggressive hive is more likely to be an EHB hive that's being visited nightly by skunks/raccoons/possums than by an AHB hive. 

The only true defense against municipalities outlawing beekeeping and endangering their human population is a well and correctly informed public. That takes knowlegable beekeepers educating them and not buying into the hysteria themsleves.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Ross said:


> Do you people seriously believe that there are no urban beekeepers in Dallas....


Since you quoted me should I assume you are addressing me? If so, my name is Sheri, I am a _person_ not _people_ Just ask my husband, one of me is enough. 

You seem to equate discussion of a situation as panic, I don't see anyone close to panic, but I do see overt sarcasm and excitability. If you would care to reread my post you will see that my main concern and a concern of some others as well, is that the PERCEPTION of danger may negatively impact both commercials and hobbyists. My comments were primarily directed to those who cannot see any possible negative impact from yet one more complexity to beekeeping in the U.S. If you disagree, fine. 
Where did I say there were no hobbyists in <Texas>. If you care to reread what I said was "You don't see many hobbyists in *uncontested AHB* territory".
Sure, there is AHB _genetics_ in TX (lots of other places throughout the country as well) but AHB is not even close to being the primary species. I would bet there are no undiluted AHB hives being run by hobbyists in any of the areas you mention. We can thank all the EHB colonies in the southern tier, and thank the responsible people NOT being complacent. 
As someone pointed out, education is crucial and yes, most people will learn the world doesn't end in AHB _effected_ areas. But we may have to deal with people who will not tolerate _any_ bees to be amongst their children, because they _perceived_ AHB as an inordinate threat. After all, they saw the movie.

We routinely do business with AHB area beekeepers with little concern, buying hundreds of queens annually from potential AHB areas, but we assess that position yearly based on experience and customer feedback. So far so good. We would quit doing business with them if their bees showed the potential to put people in danger. Not hysteria, common sense.

>>>_Originally Posted by jbeshearse 
My problem with this entire thread is that it originated from a queen producer that simply stated the obvious truth._<<<

Actually this thread was started with the intention to disassociate that queen producer from this topic and to determine general attitudes towards buying from AHB areas. Who would have thought it would be such a touchy subject 
Sheri


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

Ross said:


> Do you people seriously believe that there are no urban beekeepers in Dallas, Austin, Waco, San Antonio, Houston, Tyler, Ft Worth, Abilene, San Angelo, etc, etc, etc. Texas is the 2nd most populous state. California is first. Both have AHB bees and you don't see bee attacks in the paper every day. No panic in the streets.


Ross, we are well aware that you all deal with AHB day in and day out. I say I can't risk it. We don't have AHB and our populations aren't AHB savy. Why would anyone want to risk placing known AHB next to a place where little kids play? 
Here in Illinois, AHB are illegal to have. Not only can you be sued, you can be arrested and your hives destroyed. 
You all can keep your rattlesnakes and scorpions too.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Not to get too far off post but...

I find it very interesting that for the most part the posters who would buy from AHB areas are from FL, GA and TX. Those are three states that already have AHB. There were only a few northern beeks speaking up on this point and most of them answered no, that is "they would not buy queens from a breeder if that breeder was inside a AHB zone."


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

> Ross, we are well aware that you all deal with AHB day in and day out. I say I can't risk it. We don't have AHB and our populations aren't AHB savy. Why would anyone want to risk placing known AHB next to a place where little kids play?
> Here in Illinois, AHB are illegal to have. Not only can you be sued, you can be arrested and your hives destroyed.
> You all can keep your rattlesnakes and scorpions too.


That's just my point Brenda. We don't. Nor do we deal with the snakes or spiders very often. You are just very sadly misinformed. Why don't you just listen to those of us that are down here and quit ascerting "facts" that aren't present. I have seen a couple of hot hives in 15 years. I wouldn't bet on either being AHB.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

jbeshearse said:


> valleyman,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 There is no way that you can reeducate the public after the news media has them on alert for AHB!! All it takes is 1 child getting stung and have an over protective parent. You best just call your insurance agent. It is a wacky world we live in.:doh:

I live in a area that is over run with skunks/racoons/opposums/deer/wild turkey/ground squirrels/mice,and I've been expecting a bear anytime since I live about 10 miles from Mammoth Cave Park. So I keep my hives at least 10" off of the ground, and have an electric fence to protect them from the cows and other creatures. So you better believe that I will try my best also to not add AHB genetics to them even though it may happen eventually. You can also bet I'm smart enough to not buy genetics from an area that almost for sure has some AHB genetics. This is as Sheri said only common sense.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> My comments were primarily directed to those who cannot see any possible negative impact from yet one more complexity to beekeeping in the U.S. If you disagree, fine.


Sheri: the problem is the perception of Texas, which cover a large area. Areas which are further south than old Mexico, within, 40 miles of the Kansas Border, further west than Denver, Co. yet as far east as Des Moines Ia. Incidently, your concerns as a migratory beek are different from ours, while we may be managing any problem we have, you may be spreading any problem we have.



JohnK and Sheri said:


> If you care to reread what I said was "You don't see many hobbyists in *uncontested AHB* territory".
> Sure, there is AHB _genetics_ in TX (lots of other places throughout the country as well) but AHB is not even close to being the primary species. I would bet there are no undiluted AHB hives being run by hobbyists in any of the areas you mention.


I doubt that there are any 'uncontested' areas in Texas except save maybe along the Mexican border in the big bend area. Even in the valley these areas are contested. Not quite sure what you are saying about 'undiluted AHB' hives being run by hobbyists. First no one runs AHB here knowingly, and secondly a hobbyist would probably deal with any AHB problem much quicker than a commercial beek, by inch: and then replacing the queen; thereby making the colony of European descent with no AHB genetics.



JohnK and Sheri said:


> >>>_Originally Posted by jbeshearse
> My problem with this entire thread is that it originated from a queen producer that simply stated the obvious truth._<<<
> 
> Actually this thread was started with the intention to disassociate that queen producer from this topic and to determine general attitudes towards buying from AHB areas.


However, I wonder why someone would make a posting to resurrect the thread on BWeaver queens long after it had died when that person had not purchased queens from that extremely reputable queen raiser in over 4 years, and the last time he had purchased queens they were exceptional queens? And that person sells bees! I am not God and cannot judge a persons heart but I can sure be suspicious. Then that person moves my answers to this thread without my permission, as if I wanted to participate in this thread, without also moving his original statements, and in several instances took my responses totally out of context in so doing.



Brenda said:


> Ross, we are well aware that you all deal with AHB day in and day out.


Brenda that is a misconception that you have concerning Texas. We don't deal with the problem day in and day out, weekly, monthly, or annually. If we have an aggressive colony we deal with it. I have had 1 incidence from a perchased colony and I dealt with it. I have logged all throughout the east Texas Piney woodes and have never had an bee incident except with yellow jackets and hornets, but I suspect you have those also.

My perception is that many who post here's perception of AHB is based upon some Hollywood movie AHB fantasy. Do Ahb exist in Texas-*Yes*, is it being managed-*Yes*, is there a risk-*much Less than the risk that is posed by migratory beekeepers moving their colonies all over the country*. 

Most hobbyist in Texas routinely raise their own queens, except those that are in areas where Ahb populations are sustainable, which is probably about 20% of the State. Does that mean that we won't have an incidence of AHB-*No, but not much more of a chance of that than someone in Ill. whose raised queens may have been bred from an AHB drone from a migratory beek*. 

The biggest portion of Texas does *not* present an environement where sustainable levels of Ahb populations can exists. We are in what is called a 'transient' state or where an occassional incidence occurs, but this is caused mainly by migratory beeks or the bees :thumbsup: a ride on a truck. Thanks to migratory beeks the rest of the country is in the same shape as the largest part of Texas, with no greater or lesser risk.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

The problem is 100% of the general public and most new beeks don't understand the first thing about bee behavior. Everytime a member of the general public experiences a mass stinging from honey bees, the "AHB" RED FLAG OF FEAR is raised. You can thank the media for that. 

Every time a new beek opens a hive under the wrong conditions and experiences a lot of angry bees buzzing about, his first assumption is "my hive must have been africanized since the last time I checked it"....or, "that package or queen I bought from that southern state must have been africanized. IGNORANCE AND FEAR are the culprits in both scenarios.

I keep bees in the Texas panhandle. I'm aware AHB may exist in my area. In three years of beekeeping, I have yet to see any at all. They are not taking over the country in a murderous march of mass destruction leaving in their wake a sea of dead animals and suffering people(as the media would have you believe). But, I am mindful that I may run into a swarm at some time. Which brings me to another point.

If you're smart, you don't have unprotected sex. Nor do you work bees without the proper gear on. I think it is hilarious how some beeks gloat about working their hives wearing nothing at all or just a veil. Then when they experience a mass stinging, they jump up and down asserting that somehow some AHB's must have infiltrated their hive(s). Fact is they probably opened the hive at the wrong time or conditions and were faced with a flurry of pissed off bees(normal bee behavior). I always wear the proper gear when cutting out a feral swarm or working my bees. I'm prepared for what might happen.

The bottom line fact is....you can get a mass stinging from EHB just as well as AHB....so I don't make assumptions about which variety may be flying about me.

Let me share with you a couple of local(Lubbock,TX)news stories. Last summer it was reported a group of children experienced a mass stinging in the city. The street was blocked off. The fire department and police were called in. Media trucks were "johhny on the spot" covering the horrible story(from a safe distance of course). The fire dept. ripped the siding off the old house and sprayed the offending bees killing them. The RED FLAG OF FEAR WAS RAISED by the media...."they were more than likely the dreaded AHB" claimed the talking head. Sample bees were sent off for identification .......when the tests results came back weeks later.....guess what, they were your regular old garden variety of EHB. Then it was disclosed the "children" had been aggravating the colony by throwing rocks at the side of the house(this was not mentioned in the first terroring media report). Someone's momma should have explained "if you aggravate bees, they will sting".

Story two: A man was operating a bulldozer clearing some old buildings and trees from a lot. Suddenly he was attacked in mass by a cloud of horrible stinging bees. He had no choice but to jump off the bulldozer and crawl under it in an attempt to escape the attacking bees he whined for the camera. "But they just kept stinging me, I couldn't get away. They must have been those africanized bees" he claimed through swollen eyes and puffy cheeks from the hospital bed. The media fell right in with him in his claim raising that red flag of fear. Again, bees were sent off for testing...again, they were identified as regular old EHB.

This last comment is for the beeks(experienced beeks exempt cause they know better) posting fear mongering comments on this forum about not buying bees from so called AHB labeled southern states. Bees sting folks. Just because 10 or 50 or 500 of them come at you all once doesn't mean they are africanized. Fact is honey bees aren't the anthropomorhized, smiling little friendly cute bugs you see on packaging and in ads. They are proctective of their home, young and food regardless of their origin. If you can't understand that basic tenent and properly prepare for it before you invade, please get out of beekeeping.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

ACBEES said:


> Nor do you work bees without the proper gear on. I think it is hilarious how some beeks gloat about working their hives wearing nothing at all or just a veil.
> 
> you can get a mass stinging from EHB just as well as AHB
> 
> ...


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Hampton, I do not think you are off post at all.

I believe that those in or near areas that are known to have AHB are probably more knowledgeable about the AHB than those farther away.

The unfortunate reality is that perception is more often taken as fact, making it “reality” to some. Take your post:



Hampton said:


> Those are three states that already have AHB. "


Then take a look at the map that Brenda uses to determine where not to buy queens from:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=6

You will notice Georgia is shown as not having AHB. Also note that my location in Panama City is well above the areas in Florida having AHB. So while I am in a state that has AHB, I am not near a zone that has AHB. So do you base your decisions on perception or on reality? 

Are you aware that the state of Florida advocates destruction of any feral hive, no matter where in the state you are? They are not willing to chance an AHB colonies survival. But they do not advocate destruction of managed EHB hives in areas known to have AHB. We all have to manage our bees to insure that hot hives, whether AHB genes or not, are not allowed to propagate. I hope we all do that as a matter of our basic beekeeping activities. 

I applaud any who take the steps to minimize the chances of AHB introduction. But what I see in this thread is the unrealistic stance that buying a queen from an area known to have AHB will result in an uncontrolled AHB hive. The chances of the hive being “hot” are going to be higher, that is true. Just as true, is that a hot queen from an area known to have AHB is MORE LIKELY to be pinched than a hot queen from an area which does not. Even though the genetics of both are unknown. So it is all about perception, not reality.


Valleyman,





valleyman said:


> All it takes is 1 child getting stung and have an over protective parent. You best just call your insurance agent.


I deserved that for my snappish reply.

It does not matter if it was an AHB or EHB the result will be the same. The sheer quantity of beehives in this country will mean that there is a greater chance of someone being stung by an EHB than by an AHB. It is only a matter of time before one of those is allergic. The public’s perception is that all stinging insect are “killer bees” and that everyone is allergic. 

I understand your proactive protection of your bees and their bloodlines and applaud them. Do you surround your bees with electric fences and height to protect the bees, yourself or the public? I suspect its all three in that order. You are not insuring non AHB genetics by buying from areas which do not have AHB present. You are buying from those who are less likely to have AHB genetics, but who are also less likely to screen for them. Breeder practices, ethics and reputation are what need to be considered, not location. The reality is that most beekeepers will be less likely to pinch a “Hot queen” (that term brings up images I don’t care for) from non AHB area, than from an AHB area. This increases the chances of a hot hives survival, it does not decrease it. 

What I see in these posts are the assumption that a queen from an AHB area will be AHB, will result in an overly defensive hive, will be allowed to live, will result in a bee attack which will then result in a death. So these 5 things have to line up correctly to result in what is being assumed here. I believe there is a chance of those 5 things happening. But I do not think that it will happen to any who post here. As I hope and believe we are better beekeepers than that.

Sherry, 

Is what starting a new thread has done is remove the one queen producer in he AHB areas from getting a black eye and spreading the pain around to all the Southern producers. But truth be told, it is a good thread. Any discussion around the realities and perceptions of the AHB and its impact on the US Beekeeping industry and hobby beekeepers is beneficial. Knowledge over rumor should always be pursued.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

Valleyman, I believe you took my comment out of context. The rest of my thought you quoted says not wearing the proper gear, then on a day when the conditions are not right resulting in a good stinging then blaming it on the bees being aggressive from possible africanization. My point was one should always be prepared for a possible stinging when working their bees.

My bees are very gentle, but I still suit up when I work the yard.


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

Ross said:


> That's just my point Brenda. We don't. Nor do we deal with the snakes or spiders very often. You are just very sadly misinformed. Why don't you just listen to those of us that are down here and quit ascerting "facts" that aren't present. I have seen a couple of hot hives in 15 years. I wouldn't bet on either being AHB.



Ross, The "day in day out" thing was a figure of speech. Meaning I know that your area has dealt with AHB for a long time and your area is used to dealing with them. Our area is not. 
We also have spiders, snakes and tornadoes, and yes I know we don't have go around being afraid of them all the time. I have been to Texas.
I also have a cousin in Arizona. She and her husband have kept bees for many years, and when I talked to her, she stated that the bees around there now are not the nice bees that they first started out with. Their area has had AHB for a long time now. I'm sure that they aren't worried about being attacked day to day, but she wouldn't recommend that I buy bees or queens from AZ either.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

There are many of us in southern states trying to make a living in this industry. For me I'm just getting started. I find it very disturbing that there is this "chicken little" mind set about buying bees from areas of the country where AHB have been reported. Reported doesn't mean AHB have taken over a state or region.

I think the deciding factors in whether or not to make a purchase from a southern states beek should be that beeks dedication to the industry and their responsible management practices. For those of us responsibly keeping bees down here, don't you think we address any evidence of an AHB swarm showing up....as unlikely as that is in the first place? Where did this idea come from that we are overrun with AHB?

Hot hive(s) does not automatically equal africanization...matter of fact for all you "chicken littles" out there, it's a slim chance. Meanwhile, all your unsubstantiated comments are continuing the fear mongering that is steering people away from buying our bees/queens. Guess you would think it better to buy bees/queens imported from some foreign country. Running the risk of importation of some new disease/parasite with those bees that could deal the next devastating blow to all of us is a far greater risk in my opinion than accidentally aquiring africanized genetics.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

valleyman said:


> ACBEES I can tell you have never kept bees in Ky. Because on any day 55 degrees or above. Most all of us can do just this. We would like to keep it this way. Sorry you can't.


valleyman *I assume ACBEES quote*:


ACBEES said:


> If you're smart, you don't have unprotected sex. Nor do you work bees without the proper gear on. I think it is hilarious how some beeks gloat about working their hives wearing nothing at all or just a veil. Then when they experience a mass stinging, they jump up and down asserting that somehow some AHB's must have infiltrated their hive(s). Fact is they probably opened the hive at the wrong time or conditions and were faced with a flurry of pissed off bees(normal bee behavior). I always wear the proper gear when cutting out a feral swarm or working my bees. I'm prepared for what might happen.


*was referring to my prior post in which i stated*



DRUR said:


> I have a BeeWeaver queen which I worked today without gloves or veil and only smoke. My son was gloved and veiled up and dropped a frame of bees and I received a horrifying one sting; although 20 to 30 flew in the air and I did receive about a dozen head butts.


Has nothing to do with being in Kentucky. I would not work bees in a dearth with a gentle colony when populations are high, but I do so frequently this time of year and when the bees are on a strong honey flow. However, I also think that a limited number of bee stings are good for you, old saying is beekeepers don't get arthritis. Also, my point was that my BeeWeaver queen was not a concern that she had been Africanized, otherwise I would have already dealt with her.

However, I do practice unprotected sex [but only with my wife:lpf:] and I also don't always use gloves and veil when I work my bees here in Texas. I also think I am smart inspite of the above facts contrary to ACBEES statement above. Neither, am I offended by his statement [we are each entitled to our own opinions], nor do I take his statement out of the context in which it was intended for his example, which I also believe was appropriate.

Besides its supposed to reach 75F today so Texas can't be all bad.

Kindest Regards
Danny


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

> Meaning I know that your area has dealt with AHB for a long time and your area is used to dealing with them. Brenda


Worng again Brenda. Most of the people in my area have never seen an AHB and never will. We are in a farming area. The farmers aren't scared at all and they are exposed to feral bees on a routine basis. Sorry, you are just completely misinformed about our state. It's just that simple and I object to you spreading this misinformation.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

DRUR said:


> Sheri: your concerns as a migratory beek are different from ours, while we may be managing any problem we have, you may be spreading any problem we have.


Exactly! This is why we, as migrators, are concerned when we hear folks talking about somehow enhancing EHB with AHB genetics. I realize the genetics are being mixed by nature all the time to some extent but we are counting on responsible management in effected areas so we are less likely to be spreading any problems.


DRUR said:


> I doubt that there are any 'uncontested' areas in Texas except save maybe along the Mexican border in the big bend area. Even in the valley these areas are contested.


My point exactly in reply to comments made which seemed to me implied urban hobbyists were running "AHB bees".


DRUR said:


> .... is there a risk-*much Less than the risk that is posed by migratory beekeepers moving their colonies all over the country*.
> .... but not much more of a chance of that than someone in Ill. whose raised queens may have been bred from an AHB drone from a migratory beek[/U][/B].
> .... Thanks to migratory beeks the rest of the country is in the same shape as the largest part of Texas, with no greater or lesser risk.


Are you surprised I disagree to a degree with these statements? I would point out that in areas where there is active AHB infiltration, there is a much greater chance of genetics being transferred and greater care by breeders that this does not happen. But, yes, the fact that such a large percentage of the queens in this country are coming from AHB (or soon to be)areas is the concern we are talking about. My experience has not shown a problem justifying boycotting these areas and in fact I can't imagine our industry without southern bees.
I do not know the exact percentage of queens bred in these areas but I am quite certain it is a much much higher percentage than for those raising their own. I would guess 99%+ of package bees taken north in the spring have queens supplied from these areas, whether the end customer knows or not. I would imagine much the same percentage for migratory beeks, most of whom either raise their own queens in these areas or buy from those that do. Many "stay at home" commercial and sideliner beeks also routinely purchase queens from these areas. All of the above are dealing with the genetics in the same way all you "home boys" are, in fact many if not most of the migrators ARE home boys. We are all doing the best we can and are all in the boat together. Some of you are closer to the front line, but managing for hot hives is something we _all_ do, whether they are EHB or AHB. It is important for that line to be held and as I've stated before, in our experience, so far so good.. It is not a N/S issue, it is not a migrator/hobbyist issue. But it is an issue that those of us in the industry will always need to be aware of.
Sheri


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I think we are all in agreement that we all want gentle bees. Most of us do. And yes I have been run to the house more than I want to talk about to get my jacket w/veil, and gloves. And yes I think that the Weavers do a good job breeding bees as do several other Southern beeks, and when I can't get mite resistant bees closer to me I would not hesitate to order from them. I would only scutinize them closer, and pinch quicker. I am probably making a mistake because I am going to pure Russians next year. The ones developed by the USDA. If they aren't as gentle and problem free as they as they are portrayed to be I will scream like a mashed cat so everyone will know.:lpf:


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## Cordovan Italian Bee (Oct 27, 2009)

There are many more thousand feral bees and bee keeper in the U.S.,I'm sure the AHB is being kept out bred.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Are you surprised I disagree to a degree with these statements?


Well, we agree on so much we need to throw this disagreement in the mix lest John become suspicious.



JohnK and Sheri said:


> there is a much greater chance of genetics being transferred and greater care by breeders that this does not happen.


But, Sheri, my point and Ross' is that In much of Texas this is not the case. Those areas where migratory beeks have left their colonies [which as you well know are many] in far south Texas, where there are sustainable levels of Ahb, have a far greater chance of spreading that genetic up north than someone ordering a queen from a reputable producer such as Weaver, who has implemented management procedures to minimize the risk. 

Texas is almost 1,000 miles from north to south and 1,000 miles from east to west. In most parts of the country our geographical size would encompass 4 or 5 states. We are further west than Denver, as far east as Des Moines Ia., further south than old Mexico, and the northerly boundry is within 40 miles of the Kansas border. To lump us all together is plain ingnorance of the geograpical facts. 



JohnK and Sheri said:


> This is why we, as migrators, are concerned when we hear folks talking about somehow enhancing EHB with AHB genetics.


You won't hear reputable beeks or queen raisers supporting this proposition.




JohnK and Sheri said:


> I would point out that in areas where there is active AHB infiltration, there is a much greater chance of genetics being transferred and greater care by breeders that this does not happen. But, yes, the fact that such a large percentage of the queens in this country are coming from AHB (or soon to be)areas is the concern we are talking about.


Sheri, and I would point out to you that most of the migratory beeks go as far south in Texas as they can so they can get as earliest as a start as they can. Then they split and make nucs, raise their own queens to be bred in an area where there is a sustainable population of AHB. Then they pack up and move north when the nectar flow starts, sell their excess nucs (with their AHB genetics), and park their colonies in areas where their AHB drones can breed locally raised queens.

Now, which is better to buy queens from a reputable breeder that manages the problem or raise your own up north with this potential and get a big surprise?



JohnK and Sheri said:


> But, yes, the fact that such a large percentage of the queens in this country are coming from AHB (or soon to be)areas is the concern we are talking about.


All sustainable areas for Ahb genetics have been reached by now, there won't be any future expansion except on a temporary basis based upon weather anomolies. A distinction must be made between areas which could support sustainable populations (south Texas) vs. those where the populations could only be in a transient stage (where the Weavers are located), and those areas that might have an occassional sighting from unknown source, in the same way that this is occuring up north [where Ross and I and many others are located].



JohnK and Sheri said:


> My experience has not shown a problem justifying boycotting these areas and in fact I can't imagine our industry without southern bees.


Then why would you warn beeks like Brenda and Claressa about buying queens from these reputable dealers, and siding with those who hollar fire! fire! in a crowded theater, when there is no fire?



JohnK and Sheri said:


> It is not a N/S issue, it is not a migrator/hobbyist issue. But it is an issue that those of us in the industry will always need to be aware of.


Yes, but in a realistic manner. One many are proposing would destroy migratory bee keeping and reduce national honey production, thereby causing us to import more of this foreign crap the call honey.

Kindest Regard to You and John
Danny Unger


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

valleyman said:


> I think we are all in agreement that we all want gentle bees. Most of us do.


Yes, but they are not pets. You keep bees to make money through honey production, pollination contracts, or production of bees. I want bees that are first: healty, second: productive, and third: managable, and yes gentle is nice but not necessary.



valleyman said:


> I am probably making a mistake because I am going to pure Russians next year. The ones developed by the USDA. If they aren't as gentle and problem free as they as they are portrayed to be I will scream like a mashed cat so everyone will know.:lpf:


Uh, well they were naturally selected in Russia, and then imported and tested. You will find gentleness is in the eye of the beholder, some would be satisfied with the same colonies while others would scream AHB. And, your mashing the wrong end of the cat, mash the other end and they don't scream:lpf:. What can I say, I am a guy.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

ACBEES said:


> There are many of us in southern states trying to make a living in this industry. For me I'm just getting started.


Some of us have been keeping bees awhile and making a living for a decade and more and have some real risk involved not just idle talk on a bee blog. As you grow you'll find an ounce of prevention really does equal a pound of cure if you hope to succeed n this business. Since you say you are just getting started I have to wonder where does your expertise come from and what research can you share which qualifys you on an issue as important as this much less to advise me who has 100K invested in my 20 year old operation and feeds my family? Those doing it for a living have to think through all the aspects. One stupid mistake is the diffence between success and failure. I've made a few and thankfully survived. Replace a hive ok, replace 20 hives ok, what about 100, 200 or more. You make statements like they are fact. I like facts I can learn from them. Are they? If so why not qualify your comments and share your source if it's not personal experiance. Research, personal experiance and to what level, training, general knowledge. 



ACBEES said:


> I think the deciding factors in whether or not to make a purchase from a southern states beek should be that beeks dedication to the industry and their responsible management practices. For those of us responsibly keeping bees down here, don't you think we address any evidence of an AHB swarm showing up....as unlikely as that is in the first place? Where did this idea come from that we are overrun with AHB?.


You have list of dedicated beeks safe to order from? If not who does or who decides?
After debating this aspect of the issue I'm leaning that direction thanks to some FACTS, RESEARCH and WELL THOUGHT OUT LOGIC posted by Cleressa. I'm at least open to the concept a very few breeders with a high level of expertise and a great deal of effort may have mitigated this issue to an acceptable level. How do we identify them accurately. Genetic testing, sticky finger in the wind? How do you decide or is Weaver the only one you trust at this point. How many queens have you ordered or do you order from AHB areas and what percentage had to be replaced? Somehow getting this information is like pulling teeth for some reason.

The idea of who or where has been overrun came from maps from experts such as this one.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=6

These are the kinds of places us "Chicken Littles" get our information from. Pretty reliable stuff I think, if you haven't these sites are a good read.



ACBEES said:


> Hot hive(s) does not automatically equal africanization...matter of fact for all you "chicken littles" out there, it's a slim chance. Meanwhile, all your unsubstantiated comments are continuing the fear mongering that is steering people away from buying our bees/queens. Guess you would think it better to buy bees/queens imported from some foreign country. Running the risk of importation of some new disease/parasite with those bees that could deal the next devastating blow to all of us is a far greater risk in my opinion than accidentally aquiring africanized genetics.


Pretty elementary statement, I think any 2nd year beekeeper is well aware hot does not mean africanized. I totally agree about buying queens from out of the area and bringing in new issues from another continent. Just my opinion though, no hard facts. Having said that what specific information supports your implication there is more danger in imported bees than africanized bees. Another unbased opinion or did I miss something in my research and postings? The inherrent danger in AHB is clearly on every expert radar on both the north and south american continents. 

I don't mind people stating opinions, we can all place an appropriate value on that but if your choice is name calling and preaching I say be prepared to support your position.

http://www.stingshield.com/2004news.htm
http://www.ems1.com/ems-news/592850-responding-to-africanized-honey-bee-attacks/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HORxXaNyXNc

HMMMM? I wonder where people get the idea AHB are dangerous?


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

Valleyman, I have four hives of ferals from cut outs and I've let them raise their own queens. None of them show any AHB genetics. I had ten hives of russians and so far have lost four since acquiring them. All my ferals have made it just fine. My ferals are easy to work, the russians I have are even gentler than the ferals.

As a beek practicing my trade in an identified AHB state. I feel I have a responsibility to the industry to keep up with any developments regarding AHB in my area and take appropriate management steps should the need ever arise. I'm sure all other responsible beeks in southern states do the same. It benefits nobody to be a wreckless beekeeper.

This year, I'm expanding by 40 hives. In the future, I plan to sell bees. I hope people will feel confident buying my bees because of my management practices and commitment to promoting and protecting the industry, not pass on them out of fear because the bees are coming from an AHB identified state.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

This topic of ahb was discussed to death in another big thread and there are quite a number of good links to facts that are still there for anyone who is interested to look for it.

"what if" is always good to be a prepared person, but it should not over shadow "what is"

"what is" is that the number of bee attacks and bee caused deaths and otherwise have not risen since the spread of ahb in this country.

"what is" is that there are many many concerned beekeepers all over the country that are careful surveyors of their hives and act responsibly when they see any 'hot' hive, ahb or not, begin to show itself and those hives, by those responsible beekeepers are requeened quickly from a source the beekeeper has usually researched to be sure they are not requeening with the same problem.

The best advice I ever received and I continue to offer others when it comes to beekeeping is

Bee Aware, Bee Informed, Bee Calm

Enjoy the bees and best of luck to everyone

btw, not every beekeeper is interested in honey production, pollination or 'producing' bees, which I took to mean as the business of mass sales of bees ( however, in the same vein, production of bees in terms of helping rebuild bee populations for conservation is my own primary objective, so I can half agree with that one)

Big Bear


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

DRUR said:


> Well, we agree on so much....


Exactly, we are getting down to defining "is".



DRUR said:


> Those areas where migratory beeks have left their colonies ....have a far greater chance of spreading that genetic up north than someone ordering a queen from a reputable producer ...


_Anyone_ who breeds queens in more AHB drone saturated areas is of course more likely to acquire AHB genes. Pointing fingers at one particular group of folks is counterproductive, IMO. 
I know breeders that are further south than some migrators. 
In addition some migrators sell queens commercially and some breeders migrate. I don't accept a broad brush view of "migrators" being substantially more lax with their genetics. The argument could as easily be made that migrators WORK the bees when they are large enough to assess and cull poor genetics. We could argue who is most vulnerable all day but these arguments are irrelevant to my point.



DRUR said:


> To lump us all together is plain ingnorance of the geograpical facts.


I agree. I never lumped all of TX together and never even singled TX out in particular, except in reply to other's comment. In fact, my comments were such as to draw the "concern line" further south than it is, due to EHB saturation. 



DRUR said:


> You won't hear reputable beeks or queen raisers supporting this proposition <of enhancing EHB with AHB genetics>.


My point!



DRUR said:


> Then why would you warn beeks like Brenda and Claressa about buying queens from these reputable dealers, and siding with those who hollar fire! fire!...


Where have I done this? My focus was to impress Claressa or anyone else on my opinion of the inadvisability of acceptance of AHB as an improvement in our current genetics. 
AHB spread (through migrators/breeders/hobbyists what does it matter?) is something to be discouraged and something most of us _agree_ on. My and others pointing out the possible repercussions of acceptance (and/or encouragement) of such a spread were in response to those remarks and to those who seemed to be assuming there was no potential impact outside of reported AHB areas. 

*Nowhere do I advice against purchasing from reputable breeders.* I made the point several times that *we do ourselves* and that in our experience they were diligent in their efforts to keep AHB genetics from their operations. 

I stand by my statement that diligence is appropriate and detailed my reasons for feeling this way. That was, after all, the OP's question. I stated we assess yearly and so far no problems. How anyone can interpret my remarks as an attack on Texas or queen breeders is beyond me.
Sheri


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

Ok Ross. You're right and I'm wrong.
I still won't buy bees from an area that has AHB. I'm not changing your mind and you're not changing mine.
The only "spreading of misinformation" I've done, is posting my opinion in this thread. I'm not out to hurt any bee suppliers or any particular state.
So, I'll just keep my thoughts to myself on this subject.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

Joel, I was basing my comment about folks having the wrong idea we are overrun with AHB from a Texas state map showing the spread of AHB, not the USDA map. I took a look at the USDA map you provided the link for. I can certainly see where the average lay person would get the idea we are swarming with AHB down here. I think the map is misleading because it colors each county solid when an AHB report is confirmed. That gives the impression these counties are infested with AHB. Fact is, there may have been one swarm found and it was killed.

The TX state map indicates the number of confirmed reports in each county which I think gives better info to the general public and is more accurate than the USDA map. I will try and find the Tx. state map which indicates the number of actual reported cases of AHB for each county. The county I live in is colored solid on the USDA map, yet in three years, I have never encountered AHB. Yet I'm aware they can show up.

I very much admire your ability as an independent business man to provide for your family for a lot of years through beekeeping. No, I don't have $100,000 invested in my operation. But, the $10,000 I do have invested to date is a big chunk for me. Yes, I am new(three years new). I am a voracious reader, I have a well functioning brain and I love the bee business. 

You are calling me out to back up my comments. Fair enough. True, some of my comments are my opinions and thoughts based on common sense and what I'm reading from others. I feel opinions should be expressed to provoke thought and debate. It certainly is being accomplished in this thread. I don't think I should feel awkward about expressing my ideas because I have been at this only 3 years. I try to do it in an intelligent and unoffending manner and in the future I will make a better effort to cite resources when appropriate.

By the way, I don't buy bees from Weaver:lpf: Best wishes for a succesfull year.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

Joel, I have one other question. The heart of the matter of this thread seems to be why a person would or wouldn't buy bees/queens from a region with reported AHB.

There seems to be a situation perceived or not that there is a shortage of U.S. bees, thus the justification for imports from Australia. If in fact there is not enough supply in the U.S. to meet the demand, then there is a market opportunity. I plan to manage my operation to begin selling bees(not queens yet) in the near future.

My question is this. Would you buy bees from me even though AHB have been reported in my county on the USDA map?


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

Correct me if i'm not remembering my 9th grade science, but if a EHB queen breds with an AHB drone...wouldn't the bees be 50% AHB and EHB? Then when those queens bred...wouldn't they be 25% AHB? It seems to me getting a healthy queen early would be more important than worrying about getting a queen with a small percentage of AHB DNA. I've had bees so "hot" in the 70's they wouldn't let you get out of the truck. Crank up the smoke and requeen.
I wonder if some of this is not fear of the unknown. Bekeepers in TX work with AHB right in their back yard everyday....if its mean..requeen!


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

If I may I'm going to make one last statement about this. I do think that mine and others opinion on this blog could hurt someones business even though not meant to have that affect. So I will apoligize if any of my researched statments offended or harmed anyone in any way. Research is someones opinion based on most of the time [predjidoused],(or ever how you spell it), information because they set out to find what they wanted to find. I would also like to make a statement that I have insinuated to in other threads, and that is in my opinion if the Southern beeks (including South Texas) truly have AHB purebred they are not going to breed them because there is no use for them. What Genetics that slip thru is going to be very insignificant. Because they would not produce enough to survive cold weather, The only point that I make is that when I have bees closer to me with less chance of being aggressive, notice I didn't say AHB, I will purchase them. I believe, from an opinion driven by common sense, that a much greater threat comes from what might be imported by the Aussies or from wherever, than an aggressive hive of bees that can be requeened and solve that problem. What could be coming won't be that easy. Good night, and Goodbye to this forum.:applause:


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Dale, to answer your question, some genetic traits are dominant, and some recessive. It seems that aggression, or the extreme defensiveness of the ahb tends to be dominant. It apparently can be diluted, but that seems not to be too easy. 

Thus the concern on this forum, and this thread, about the ahb. While they are appreciated for their ability to handle mites, their well-documented extreme defensiveness is a problem. Also, their drones appear to be much more aggessive in mating, and seem to have been able in other areas to crowd out ehb drones. That is why breeders work hard to flood drone congregation areas with lots and lots of ehb drones, to minimize ahb and maximize ehb drone populations and mating of ehb queens. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Claressa (Oct 1, 2009)

DRUR said:


> Then why would you warn beeks like Brenda and Claressa about buying queens from these reputable dealers, and siding with those who hollar fire! fire! in a crowded theater, when there is no fire?


Thank you Danny for spelling my name correctly!

I may be beating a dead horse, but it seems there really is a dichotomy in positions and it's not necessarily North/South. Georgia is not an AHB affected area, but I would order a queen from one *if* the vendor was reputable. If there is the north/south divide in answers then I have to agree with the sentiment of "do you really think you can keep it out?" Stave it off, maybe, but eventually the problem will come to you. Why not deal with it now in a prophylactic fashion?


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Claressa said:


> Thank you Danny for spelling my name correctly!


Don't have time to check all my posts, but if I previously misspelled your name I apologize. I know someone who spells her name Clarissa, so it I misspelled yours it was not intentional, but rather typing error, by habit or just a brain malfunction.

Kindest Regards


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dale Hodges said:


> Correct me if i'm not remembering my 9th grade science, but if a EHB queen breds with an AHB drone...wouldn't the bees be 50% AHB and EHB?


Bee genetics is somewhat more complicated then that.

It appears as though whether you have an EHB queen mating w/ an AHB drone or an AHB queen mating w/ an EHB drone, the AHB traits are dominant, especially the undesirable ones.

At least that is what I have heard.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

ACBEES said:


> My question is this. Would you buy bees from me even though AHB have been reported in my county on the USDA map?


When I started this post the answer would have been a resounding no. Now I'm not so sure. It seems certain AHB whatever the cross are a part of all our futures. I've always known that I just wanted to hold it off as long as possible. What I've learned on this thread is beekeepers are using bees from AHB areas with success. I have to ask myself after having it pointed out AHB bees have been here for 20 years and we have not had any major people and animal kills in the north in that time is the danger I'm thinking of a level more than driving a trailer load of bees down I-95 or is over perceived from a great deal of negativity that perhaps the majority of the scientific commmunity and press have yet to overcome. Claressa's (spelled it right this time  ) postings make clear there is at least some level of normalacy in places where obviously they had the purest strain freed in 1957. Dans points were accurate for the most part and he is still working Bees in AHB areas with just a veil. He is getting his bees from a family who may be some of the best breeders in the country and this would play a role in my decision as from who I would buy if I did and raises my trust in Dan's judgement in my eyes. I think that was vary consciencous choice for him. Dan being an experianced beekeeper gets a higer credibility score and the fact he has made the decision from his experiance to work in this manner which would be a risk if undertaken with inexperiance or foolishness also lends creedence to his choices and yours as you do the same. Knowing the size of Sheri's operation and the scope of her travels as well as experiance and my general sense of her bee and business savy clearly she is managing hives with queens bred in AHB areas successfully. 

I would still like to hear from a good cross section of beekeepers using queens for example from Weavers or from you before I would make a final decison. Other considerations apply as well. Do AHB crossbreds have the other traits I would like. Defensiveness, swarming, poor north wintering are all considerations even if what I'm buying is not the classic Killer Bee.

I guess my answer today would be a soft no, although not based on the killer bee fear as the deciding factor, but based on overall genetics for my locale. I'm certainly much closer than I was to yes when we started this thread.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

From what I have heard...

European Queen mated with Africanized drones (aggressive)
African Queen mated with European drones (more aggressive)
African Queen Mated with African drones (really aggressive)

Requeen the really hot hives with a European queen - even if she mates with an African drone, the resulting bees are still 'manageable'. Try to keep European queens in the hive.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

Joel, I have one comment to your last post.....thank you :applause::applause::applause:


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

JOEL
Ditto to all you said. I'm small, but we smallies still matter, and I like to learn and I keep an open mind you'll will find. Valleyman Brent Cook


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Joel, to answer your question, in 2006 I bought two packages from B. Weaver, and they did very well. In 2007 I bought 5 queens, and made splits. in 2009 I bought 4 more queens from B. Weaver, and did not regret it. The splits I made with those queens produced honey this past season. One hive turned hot for some reason, and I simply requeened. I plan to keep the B. Weaver genetics in my mix. Currently have 14 hives, going to 30 this year, 50 next year.
Regards,
Steven


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Dale Hodges said:


> Correct me if i'm not remembering my 9th grade science, but if a EHB queen breds with an AHB drone...wouldn't the bees be 50% AHB and EHB? Then when those queens bred...wouldn't they be 25% AHB?


Let's see......
Assuming grafts from a 100% EH queen mother.
Grafted virgins open mated and inseminated by 100%AH drones result in production queens of 50/50 sold and shipped north. 
The 50/50 production queen's _workers_ would be 50/50 but the _drones are still 100% EH._ The production queen would most probably be pinched, would never breed, certainly not be selected for breeding. 
If they _weren't_ pinched before they threw swarms, which mated with the local EH drones, _that_ generation workers would be 75EH/25AH, but the _drones_ would be 50/50.
Drones only have the queens genetics.
Sheri


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Countryboy said:


> Requeen the really hot hives with a European queen - even if she mates with an African drone, the resulting bees are still 'manageable'. Try to keep European queens in the hive.


I'm sure you know this CB, if you requeen a colony, the queen doesn't fly again for mating purposes. Unless you meant to say "virgin queens".

Shouldn't we be calling virgin queen bees princess bees?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

sqkcrk said:


> Shouldn't we be calling virgin queen bees princess bees?


Yes, I like that  
Sheri


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_I'm sure you know this CB, if you requeen a colony, the queen doesn't fly again for mating purposes. Unless you meant to say "virgin queens"._

So what am I doing when I put a ripe queen cell (with cell protector) into a queenright hive? I call that requeening, and the [virgin] queen which emerges from the cell goes on mating flights...

Introducing a mated queen is only one way of requeening a hive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I didn't get that from your post and I didn't want any novices here to get the wrong impression. I knew you knew. I just wanted others to understand also.

Peace, Mark


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