# High Fructose Corn Syrup May Be Partly Responsible for Bees’ Collapsing Colonies



## Matt Clem (May 2, 2013)

I saw this article today as well. I'm just a newbee, my hives are literally arriving tomorrow, but this article combined with some things I've read from Michael Bush have encouraged me to be very conservative when it comes to honey harvest time. It makes sense as well after some thought: a substance created for the bees by the bees, that has been in existence for millions of years, that has many healthy benefits for even humans beyond simply being food, and it never goes bad. Yeah, it probably does have properties that a simple syrup just wouldn't.


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## BayHighlandBees (Feb 13, 2012)

the study that the article links too, mentions that nectar itself actually doesn't contain any p-coumaric acid. The honey gets its all of its p-coumaric acid from pollen and propolis contamination (and none from the nectar itself). If that's the case, if you store nectar in a hive and it acumulates p-coumaric acid from the bees trucking in pollen, wouldn't the same happen with HFCS when you store it in the hive?

To me this illustrates the importance of bees having access to good pollen sources (p-coumaric acid is the core component of the cell walls in pollen), but the press went towards a more sensational storyline about linking it with the evil HFCS. 


============
"These inducers are primarily found not in nectar but in pollen in the case of p-coumaric acid (a monomer of sporopollenin, the principal constituent of pollen cell walls) and propolis, a resinous material gathered and processed by bees to line wax cells."


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, not everything is as it appears at face value.

Pollen is FAR higher in just about everything bees need, except sugar, than nectar.

I don't think I've ever seen a hive harmed by feeding it, other than if robbing is caused. Never fed HFSC though it's not available here, to my knowledge.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

The best food for Bees is... Honey! If Bees were meant to eat Sugar water or HFCS God/Mother Earth (Or whatever you believe in)would have created Bees to make that as their food instead!

Sure Sugar and HFCS gets them by but I'm pretty sure it's lacking some beneficial things that Honey offers. Let's shove all this sugar down their throat and then wonder why they are not doing well. Same with Humans, if all we ate was HFCS and Sugar, we would have issues too.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well kinda, just, bees aren't people.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Well kinda, just, bees aren't people.


Because people know what's best for Bees, that's why Bees are doing so great these days! All these Oldtimers and Bee experts who think the know best while the Bee population continues to take a nose dive...

There are great keepers out there (people who really care) but in my short time researching I come to a conclusion Greed is more important to many/some (Not everyone) than the survival and wellness of Bees. Granted that this happens in every business in one way or another, why would Bees be an exception, even if they are dying off quickly these days!

But to the point, are you telling me HFCS is healthy for Bees? That HFCS and sugar is healthier for the Bees than Honey?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a hive harmed by feeding it, other than if robbing is caused.


What about harm caused by not feeding it?

Is it better beekeeping to allow a colony to starve because feeding sugar will give it a belly ache? 

And if a colony has stored all it's honey in the supers and the fall flow fails...will you leave the supers on for winter feed? What then will your hive look like come spring. Brood nest in the supers and empty brood combs downstairs.

We should manage our bees to maximize the honey stored in the broodnest for winter. Obviously. But there has to be a balance in the supering management so the bees have nectar storage comb when they need it and so they don't swarm at the wrong time of the year...late because a flow happened and they didn't have room, because you were attempting to have the bees store all their winter stores in the broodnest.

Every colony is different, hence three answers from two beekeepers for every beekeeping question. And every colony sets their nest up differently. There comes a time when, for whatever reason, a colony hasn't enough winter stores, and you haven't got enough combs of honey in storage.

Don't let them starve because you read internet posts stating sugar will kill your bees, and don't wind up with the brood nests in your supers.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

trance said:


> these Oldtimers and Bee experts who think the know best while the Bee population continues to take a nose dive...
> 
> But to the point, are you telling me HFCS is healthy for Bees? That HFCS and sugar is healthier for the Bees than Honey?


You mean me?

Like I said I've never fed HFCS so wouldn't know. Can sugar syrup be healthier for bees than honey? In some circumstances, yes.

But as you appear to think that I have something to do with the (claimed) decline of bees in your country, I will not expect you to take anything from me.

But hey. My own bees are thriving. I sell lots of them every year, to people like you. A nice earner for me.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> You mean me?
> 
> Like I said I've never fed HFCS so wouldn't know. Can sugar syrup be healthier for bees than honey? In some circumstances, yes.
> 
> ...


I'm just mad about the situation. My apologies. 

I will feed sugar too, in some cases you really have too I guess. But HFCS is not needed. It's cheap and sweeter than sugar and is why it's in a lot of our food but the stuff really isn't good for us and I'm sure it can't be good for the Bees but what do I know.


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## treetrunk (Apr 25, 2013)

trance said:


> I'm just mad about the situation. My apologies.
> 
> I will feed sugar too, in some cases you really have too I guess. But HFCS is not needed. It's cheap and sweeter than sugar and is why it's in a lot of our food but the stuff really isn't good for us and I'm sure it can't be good for the Bees but what do I know.


Shoot, If feeding bees is unhealthy next thing you know Obama will have ban high capacity feeders.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Did folks actually read the article and the abstract? Yes, the headline (probably written by someone other than the article's author) oversimplified the situation. It's not just HFCS that is less than optimal for bees-- it's all sugars derived from sources other than flowers.

I don't think the article is suggesting that hives be allowed to starve rather feed sugar. It's suggesting that management practices that routinely use supplemental sugar may not be optimal and may be contributing to bee mortality.



> Don't let them starve because you read internet posts stating sugar will kill your bees, and don't wind up with the brood nests in your supers.


This was a peer-reviewed study just published in PNAS-- *Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America*. 

Nowhere does it say "sugar will kill your bees."

Feel free to ignore it, everyone. Obviously, there was no point in posting it.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> What about harm caused by not feeding it?
> 
> Is it better beekeeping to allow a colony to starve because feeding sugar will give it a belly ache?
> 
> ...


Ditto, Very well stated Mr. Palmer!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

rhaldridge said:


> Did folks actually read the article and the abstract?.....Feel free to ignore it, everyone. Obviously, there was no point in posting it.


The article was read and understood. That's how the information got out that like sugar, nectar does not contain some of the chemicals the article was talking about. There has been no unfair criticism.

I think what some of the more experienced beeks may be reacting against is the current fad for sugar bashing, like feeding is evil or something. Most of these sugar bashers eventually spill the beans that they do, in fact, feed sugar themselves. But they still rail against it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Considering all the comments about HFCS and sugar being unhealthy for bees, HFCS kept a lot of my colonies alive this Spring and now I have a lot more of them than I did before. So, whereas HFCS and cane sugar may not be the most ideal food for bees I will feed them when necassary.

But thanks for the heads up rh.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

treetrunk said:


> Shoot, If feeding bees is unhealthy next thing you know Obama will have ban high capacity feeders.


That would be New York Mayor Bloomberg who will ban it for the Bees. ;-)


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## BayHighlandBees (Feb 13, 2012)

Honey on average (depending on plants foraged) is roughly 55% fructose and 45% glucose
Sugar (sucralose) is 50% fructose and 50% glucose
HFCS is 55% fructose and 45% glucose

whats the big deal here? Based on the percentages, you could say that HFCS is a better match for honey than sugar :s

link


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## treetrunk (Apr 25, 2013)

trance said:


> That would be New York Mayor Bloomberg who will ban it for the Bees. ;-)


And to think all this time I was led to believe Monsanto was responsible for the bee's collapse.... Shoot, next they will have us believing green house gasses are causing global warming.....


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Some time ago, in Bloomberg business news I believe, I read about how HFCS is metabolized by the liver instead of the pancreas as sugar or honey is. The chemical make up of HFCS was surprisingly different. Health effects for humans was somewhat dire. 
Who knows how the bees digest or metabolize it. What are the long term effects? I am always intrigued by folks that definitively state it is safe or it is harmful..with virtually no proof ether way. Truth is, a man made product that's been altered genetically, chemically, etc is always going to be questionable. 


I don't feed it or eat it myself. Same reason I don't eat GMO, run hot water through polyvinyl chloride pipe and drink it, drink lead laden water from a made in China garden hose, spray pesticide all over my yard without a thought, etc.
Stuff I see people do every day.

Some folks believe it when THEY say it is all safe. 
I am still trying to figure out who THEY are?


I save my laps in judgement for that occasional Snickers bar on a road trip...
Which probably now has HFCS in it, now that you mention it! That darn stuff is in everything it seems. And the American public has never been slimmer and healthier.

Personally I feed when necessary. Cane sugar, electrolytes with vitamins, cider vinegar, etc. My own recipe I feel has some nutritional benefit other than just empty calorie white sugar carbs.

I've posted this link a couple times, but for those that have not seen it, it is interesting/ a bit disgusting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIgavNuBRRA

So of course all in all, natural foraging is always best, but allowing your hives to starve is stupidity. Finding the best supplemental feed seems to be a personal choice determined by how you view nutrition and health. 

Some apiaries are so large they are probably forced to feed HFCS simply because of costs/labor.

How quickly we grow dependant.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Lauri said:


> Some time ago I read about how HFCS is metabolized by the liver instead of the pancreas as sugar or honey is. The chemical make up of HFCS was surprisingly different. Health effects for humans was somewhat dire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Item, 1 do you belive everything you read on the internet??? last time I check the bees didn't have pancreases..... Too much of anything is bad for everyone, and almost everything...... its called a balance...

Item 2, really? plastic pipe and lead from garden hoses??? Sure must be rough to keep track of all that dangerous stuff...... Don't get in the car, number one cause of premature death in 20-45 year olds.......


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## BayHighlandBees (Feb 13, 2012)

There's an awful lot of people who listen to the news but don't really "process" or sanity test what they are hearing or they simply want others to do the thinking for them. A lot of people squirm when they the hear the "high fructose" part of the name high fructose corn syrup, but its only 5% more fructose than sugar. It has the same sugar balance as honey (minus the nutrients), and is slightly less glycemic that sugar (since fructose is processed directly in the liver). If you are afraid of fructose and consider it evil then I'd advise staying away from the 'health food' Agave nectar. It can be as high as 92% fructose and is a highly processed syrup! 
I'm not saying that that any of those sugars are good. Even honey should be taken in moderation and if you are swapping out one of the above sugars for another one that is "marketed" as a health sugar you're probably paying someone a chunk of money just to make yourself FEEL like you are doing something beneficial for yourself. Like the old saying there's a sucker born every day. If you're into honey for health reasons, you'd be better giving up honey altogether and just eating the pollen.

Still there are a lot of people who also are afraid of microwaves and cell phones who are afraid they are nuking themselves to death as well. Of course these waves come from the opposite end of the spectrum (infrared) than xrays, gamma rays, Ultra violet, etc. 

Well I'm sure that rant probably wen't over everyone's head.


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## BayHighlandBees (Feb 13, 2012)

I had a friend the other day warn me against growing wisteria, that I'd be 'poisoning my dirt' if I grew it in my garden. She read that on the internet.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

LOL, You all can believe or disbelieve anything you want, Make fun of my concerns for avoiding toxins, etc. 
But like Oldtimer says "But hey. My own bees are thriving. I sell lots of them every year, to people like you. A nice earner for me". ...
That's the way I also feel. When your stuffs dead and you come to me year after year to buy new bees, make sure you warm up those $100.00 bills before you hand them over. Then you can tell me how I'm doing everything wrong and what a good beekeeper _you_ are. I'll listen for about 5 minutes before I remember to be a good hostess and offer you a drink from my black vinyl garden hose.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to go get the twist out of my knickers


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

BayHighlandBees said:


> I had a friend the other day warn me against growing wisteria, that I'd be 'poisoning my dirt' if I grew it in my garden. She read that on the internet.


BTW, I'm a French model. bonjour.

(If you never seen that commercial then you won't get it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmx4twCK3_I


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Everything can kill you. Moderation and intelligent use is the key.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

C'mon you guys, this is May Berrenbaum. I can not take here seriously. I have communicated with her via e-mail, attended one of her lectures, and then spoke with her in person after wards. Although her research may be accurate, be very carefull of her conclusions. She seems to draw conclusions to her liking, mostly for personal gain, not from using logic. She clearly states:

"These inducers(Good things) are primarily found not in nectar...."

So if you replace the glucose and fructose derived from bees inverting sucrose(nectar) with the same glucose and fructose molecules found in HFCS, how do you logially conclude that......

"The widespread apicultural use of honey substitutes, including high-fructose corn syrup, may thus compromise the ability of honey bees to cope with pesticides and pathogens and contribute to colony losses."


Hello McFly, HFCS is used as a NECTAR substitute,and the bees can still derive the inducers from the pollen and propolis like normal. 

That's OK, when we spoke in person, I presented her with a peer review journal article that demonstrated Koch's postulate for CCD. She had no interest in the article. She could not, because it would have made her current unpublished grant appear superfluous. A year later her grant only reinforced that the peer review article was correct.

Remember, they make money publishing articles and getting grants. Weather it is helpful(or not), or unbiased, is irrelevant.

Crazy Roland


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

BayHighlandBees said:


> There's an awful lot of people who listen to the news but don't really "process" or sanity test what they are hearing or they simply want others to do the thinking for them. A lot of people squirm when they the hear the "high fructose" part of the name high fructose corn syrup, but its only 5% more fructose than sugar. It has the same sugar balance as honey (minus the nutrients), and is slightly less glycemic that sugar (since fructose is processed directly in the liver). If you are afraid of fructose and consider it evil then I'd advise staying away from the 'health food' Agave nectar. It can be as high as 92% fructose and is a highly processed syrup!
> I'm not saying that that any of those sugars are good. Even honey should be taken in moderation and if you are swapping out one of the above sugars for another one that is "marketed" as a health sugar you're probably paying someone a chunk of money just to make yourself FEEL like you are doing something beneficial for yourself. Like the old saying there's a sucker born every day. If you're into honey for health reasons, you'd be better giving up honey altogether and just eating the pollen.
> 
> Well I'm sure that rant probably wen't over everyone's head.


Not mine. Here's the deal: HFCS is only slightly worse for you than cane sugar. Honey is only slightly better for you than cane sugar.

Anyone actually interested in why fructose is not good for you in excess should Google "Robert Lustig fructose".

I may end up making mead. Alcohol's not that good for you either, but it's more fun.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Roland said:


> Hello McFly, HFCS is used as a NECTAR substitute,and the bees can still derive the inducers from the pollen and propolis like normal.


If they're getting their nectar substitute from a feeder, it seems reasonable to suppose that they will spending less time visiting flowers-- doesn't that mean less pollen in the hive?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

rhaldridge said:


> If they're getting their nectar substitute from a feeder, it seems reasonable to suppose that they will spending less time visiting flowers-- doesn't that mean less pollen in the hive?


Bees will quickly ignore feed once the nectar flow kicks in. I am aware of no supplement that reduces either a nectar or a pollen flow.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> Bees will quickly ignore feed once the nectar flow kicks in. I am aware of no supplement that reduces either a nectar or a pollen flow.


I would guess you don't do this unless it's absolutely necessary, but don't some beekeepers routinely feed hives because they have not left sufficient stores in the hive? I realize that sometimes plans go awry, and it can't be helped. I don't think there's anything wrong with emergency feeding, but it strikes me that the best management practices would involve trying to leave adequate natural feed.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

In a migratory operation the feed demands are really high. You are breeding bees that heavily brood from early January until early October. It's unrealistic in that scenario to leave enough feed on the hive. Feeding is inevitable for us, the amount varies based on the spring and fall flows. I would concur, though, that the best management practices from strictly a bee raising standpoint are to never have to feed. But from a profitability standpoint the best management falls somewhere in between.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I said that? :scratch:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

rhaldridge said:


> I would guess you don't do this unless it's absolutely necessary, but don't some beekeepers routinely feed hives because they have not left sufficient stores in the hive?


Okay, hands up...who routinely feed syrup because they haven't left sufficient stores...on purpose.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> Okay, hands up...who routinely feed syrup because they haven't left sufficient stores...on purpose.


:thumbsup:


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Okay, hands up...who routinely feed syrup because they haven't left sufficient stores...on purpose.


 Sounds like Jim Lyon does. I don't. How about you Mike??


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Hand held really high. Honey @ $2.10 Syrup @ .30 per lb. it's an easy call for me and I still have way more bees than I know what to do with. We have a large percentage of singles that have lived on little else since last fall save a few minor spring and fall flows, most of them graded out for almonds just fine and were a solid box of bees and brood when they came back. Our best bees, though, are doubles that had probably 30 to 40 lbs of summer honey left on them, but then they no doubt had more pollen in storage as well. No apologies from me on any of this. I'm I this business to make a profit.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Just the difference between a businessman and a hobby beekeeper.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

mac said:


> Sounds like Jim Lyon does. I don't. How about you Mike??


On purpose? Nope. Last summery I made 37T of honey and fed less than 10 drums of syrup. My bees went i to winter heavy and we fed only one drum of syrup this spring. I feed them when they need it but I would rather leave them with the honey in the brood chambers...2 deeps and a medium. I could take the medium off and extract it, but then I'd have to feed 3-4 gallons of syrup back. 

Jim's a migratory and moves his bees south. My hives weigh between 160 and 200 lbs each going into winter. I doubt Jim would want to load them up and head them out to Texas. Talk about a load being overweight...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> No apologies from me on any of this. I'm I this business to make a profit.


None needed Jim. I for one would do the same in your situation. My post was in relation to the same old, same old. When people talk about feeding sugars to their bees it's always in the vein of...the beekeepers who feed syrup take all the honey produced by the bees and feed back sugar as a replacement, just to make more money. Oh those greedy commercials that have ruined the world's bees. Shame shame...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

There ya go folks. Two entirely different and successful business plans plus Mike probably has more leisure time for some ice fishing up north in the winter.....but then there is some pretty good bass fishing down here.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> In a migratory operation the feed demands are really high. You are breeding bees that heavily brood from early January until early October. It's unrealistic in that scenario to leave enough feed on the hive. Feeding is inevitable for us, the amount varies based on the spring and fall flows. I would concur, though, that the best management practices from strictly a bee raising standpoint are to never have to feed. But from a profitability standpoint the best management falls somewhere in between.


Nicely said. 

Funny how these threads can get off track. I apologize for getting my hackles up earlier. Nice input everyone. 
Even with my small operation I feed more than most. Currently, My 60 hives are not growing fast enough with my tiny flow going on. I need them to be full of bees and feed before I break them up into mating nucs. Just fed yesterday in fact. Forcing them to grow faster or beyond their natural tenancies, not to mention I have too many hives in one place. 
Lots of reasons to feed. 
These hives and nucs have plenty of capped honey. But it is nectar or 1:1 they _grow_ on. 
Like I said earlier, what to feed is a personal choice. Depends on cost and nutritional benefit.

If I only had a hand full of hives I would feed them organic unbleached sugar syrup. ( If you watched the video link I posted previously, they bleach the sugar, then add bags of lime to neutralize the ph. Ugh.) That's one reason I add cider vinegar to the bleached sugar, to re-acidify it. I'd love to get ahold of that sugar slurry before they do all that.
There's no way to feed organic unbleached sugar with as many hives as I now have. Non GMO cane sugar works good for my budget.
Just like Jim's need to feed HFCS with his commercial operation. Some of the preferred choices are just plain cost prohibitive when your numbers are so large.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The funny thing is when I first got wind of the article on feeding HFCS to bees, I heard that it was saying that Honey was the best thing to feed bees.

Having lost my bees to starvation, I'm now feeding sugar syrup.

However, if I could, I would feed them less costly HFCS.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Michael Palmer:


> My post was in relation to the same old, same old. When people talk about feeding sugars to their bees it's always in the vein of...the beekeepers who feed syrup take all the honey produced by the bees and feed back sugar as a replacement, just to make more money. Oh those greedy commercials that have ruined the world's bees. Shame shame...


Jim Lyon:


> Honey @ $2.10 Syrup @ .30 per lb.


Me: ?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

That brings up the 'Funny Honey' issue.

Since you can make back 7X the cost of feeding syrup by extracting 'honey', even when there is no flow (it all goes into a big tank anyways), you would be wise to feed HFCS all year long, even if it means using additives to make the HFCS more attractive to the bees.

It's a business, right?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

What some call greed others call profit and yet another entity (or 2 or 3) calls it revenue as it vigilantly stands ready to redistribute it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lauri,
You could always buy sucrose syrup instead of corn syrup.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Lauri said:


> If I only had a hand full of hives I would feed them organic unbleached sugar syrup.


Feeding bees organic sugar is a bad idea. The reason the organic unbleached sugar is brown is because it contains solids, which are mostly ash. Not good for bee food. 



> The odd thing about refined white sugar it that it is actually very good for bees. Bees that are forced to stay inside the hive for long periods risk getting honey bee dysentery—the more solids in their feed, the worse the problem. Dark honeys, which contain high amounts of vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients, are harder on the bees than light colored honeys . . . and brown sugar, which also contains many solids, is nearly a death sentence.
> One of the telling numbers is “total ash”—ash being the stuff left over after you burn away a sample. A typical sample of honey may contain about 0.17% ash, whereas refined table sugar contains only about 0.07% ash. So that’s roughly 2.5 times as much ash in the honey as in the sugar. But a typical sample of evaporated cane juice may run as high as 2.15% ash, depending on the manufacturer. This is about 12.5 times as much ash as in a typical sample of honey—scary because that ash can lead directly to honey bee dysentery.
> 
> http://www.honeybeesuite.com/is-organic-sugar-better-for-bees/


Sugar refining and manufacturing processes may be distasteful to observe, but the same can be said of many food manufacturing processes. Some people may even believe that what goes on in an _abattoir _is absolutely horrible!


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

There is a lot of good things about eating Honey, for us and the Bees. 

Just a FEW things... (Yes I looked some of these up)

1. Honey is Hygroscopic
2. Honey is Antibacterial
3. Honey is a Source of Antioxidants

Benefits of HFCS:

1: ENHANCED FLAVOR
2: COMPETETIVE PRICING
3: EXTENDED SHELF LIFE

When Googling Health benefits of Honey you find pages of good things yet when Googling Health benefits of HFCS you don't find pages, in fact it's more about risks and concerns but even if there is no risk, there is still nothing in it that benifits man or bee in the long run. (Besides saving a dollar (s), it's sweet, and has a longer shelf life) I'm sure someone can squeeze something else in there... 

Not much will change, people will still use it so really there is no reason to go back and forth on who is right and who is wrong. It is what it is. Even if a study came out (proof) and said HFCS is the reason for CCD there would still be people who thought more about a dollar than the health of their bees.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

BTW you can feed a child candy and nothing but candy and he would eat it and think he is in heaven but we know better right? Are bees not the same way with HFC or sugar? The eat it and probably love it but I really doubt it's good for them in the long run

But let me guess, Bees are not children  so that makes it ok


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No one is feeding bees HFCS as a steady diet. It is used to bring them up to weight in the Fall and to ward off starvation in the Spring, when necassary. When necassary, not all the time. And it is being fed to an animal that exists on sugar (aka nectar) and protien (aka pollen). Whereas humans have a different kind of digestion system and needs.

So, comparing what is bad for children w/ what you think is bad for bees is assinine. If that isn't too strong a way to put it.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> No one is feeding bees HFCS as a steady diet. It is used to bring them up to weight in the Fall and to ward off starvation in the Spring, when necassary. When necassary, not all the time. And it is being fed to an animal that exists on sugar (aka nectar) and protien (aka pollen). Whereas humans have a different kind of digestion system and needs.
> 
> So, comparing what is bad for children w/ what you think is bad for bees is assinine. If that isn't too strong a way to put it.


You obviously didn't read the above health benefits. Bees make honey to eat with all the stuff found in nature and have been for thousands of years and is full of protein and stuff they need. How much protein and beneficial stuff is in HFCS? Just because it's strong sugar doesn't mean it has everything a bee needs LIKE HONEY DOES. Stupid bees! Why do they make Honey anymore when we can feed them HFCS! 

and you're comment to me about assinine lol.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

trance said:


> But let me guess, Bees are not children  so that makes it ok


Absolutely! Bees require a source of carbohydrate and hfcs works just fine for them. Personally I consume as little of the stuff as possible, just a lot of empty calories for humans.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

Ok, Humans know best what bees need. My apologies. 

Just as our Government knows what is best for us.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

trance said:


> You obviously didn't read the above health benefits. Bees make honey to eat with all the stuff found in nature and have been for thousands of years and is full of protein and stuff they need. How much protein and beneficial stuff is in HFCS? Just because it's strong sugar doesn't mean it has everything a bee needs LIKE HONEY DOES. Stupid bees! Why do they make Honey anymore when we can feed them HFCS!
> 
> and you're comment to me about assinine lol.


You apparently misunderstand what part honey plays in a bees diet. It is not "full of protien and stuff they need.". That's why bees gather and store pollen too. Pollen is their protien source and nectar is their fuel source. Other sources of nectar like substances, such as cane sugar and HFCS can substitute, for a time, for the fuel source, the energy source. A Human equivalent to carbohydrates.

"Stupid bees! Why do they make Honey anymore when we can feed them HFCS!" Really? You ask that sort of question expecting an intelliugent answer? Bees don't gather nectar and make honey because they are smart. Therefore, replying to a statement about them being "Stupid ..." would be, well, you pick a word.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

trance said:


> Ok, Humans know best what bees need. My apologies.
> 
> Just as our Government knows what is best for us.


Not a good analogy at all.

We are beekeepers. This is a Forum for discussion about how to keep bees. As beekeepers we do what wer can to keep our bees alive and productive using what we know or can learn. Beekeepers decide what they need to do to meet their, the beekeepers, goals using bees. I don't see the problem in feeding HFCS or cane sugar or sugar syrup when necassary. It appears that you do.

If so, then don't do it. But, please, don't tell me that I am doing something harmful to my bees when I consider letting tghem starve harmful and feeding them as beneficial. Thank you.

You've been keeping bees how long?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

trance said:


> There is a lot of good things about eating Honey, for us and the Bees.
> 
> Just a FEW things... (Yes I looked some of these up)
> 
> ...


Yes, there are. There are a lot of good things about eating Honey, for us and the bees.

How is the hygroscopic nature of honey beneficial to honeybees?
How is it beneficial to humans?

How is honey's antibacterial nature beneficial to honeybees?
How is that property beneficial to Humans?

How do the antioxidants in honey benefit Honeybees?
How do they benefit Humans?

Would you say that Honey is a really good source of all of those things for Humans? Or are there better sources?


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

I had a paragraph to post but sitting here thinking about it. Why am I really wasting my time here.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/integrative_medicine_digestive_center/news_events/corn_syrup.html

I guess I'm just brainwashed? I must read and look up all the stuff that isn't true. I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone here. HFCS is good, Pesticides are good and so on... Heck maybe the Varroa Mite and SHB is really not as bad as we think, I should goto those forums where people tell me how great they are


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"grubs"? Who calls honeybee larvae grubs?

Yes trance, HFCS is good. It keeps bees from starving. Is it ideal under all circumstances? No. But we, commercial beekeepers, do it to maintain the life of our colonies.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> "grubs"? Who calls honeybee larvae grubs?
> 
> Yes trance, HFCS is good. It keeps bees from starving. Is it ideal under all circumstances? No. But we, commercial beekeepers, do it to maintain the life of our colonies.


I guess I more shocked that reports/studies (For what they are worth) state it could be a contributing factor in CCD yet some still use it. I understand bees need to be fed, I really do. I may not use HFCS but will use sugar if need be. 

It just seems like an obese person or someone who has diabetes and complains about being obese or always has high blood sugar yet reads reports/studies that HFCS contributes to obesity and diabetes but still doesn't avoid HFCS in the food they eat. I guess I got the wrong impression that many keepers use HFCS as the bees main diet, heck even bushy mountain (Did I jack up their name?) will sell a tanker of HFCS for bee keepers!


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

trance said:


> http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/integrative_medicine_digestive_center/news_events/corn_syrup.html
> 
> I guess I'm just brainwashed? I must read and look up all the stuff that isn't true. I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone here. HFCS is good, Pesticides are good and so on... Heck maybe the Varroa Mite and SHB is really not as bad as we think, I should goto those forums where people tell me how great they are


When it comes to bees, you can look up and read about anything. When you get some experience, it will serve as a filter to determine what has validity and what does not. Stay calm.....


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

....and the list of things that 'could be a contributing factor to ccd' is a very long one.

no doubt that the bees do better with a natural diet, and likely do better altogether in a totally natural setting.

beekeeping by its nature is unnatural and invasive. feeding is necessary at times.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

"Feeding bees organic sugar is a bad idea. The reason the organic unbleached sugar is brown is because it contains solids, which are mostly ash. Not good for bee food. "

That is what they say, but I have done it. 7 Hives that had _amazing _growth and vigor. Maybe I was just lucky I didn't kill them. The price of the organic sugar has gone way up and I have way too many hives to even consider it now.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Sugar at $0.30/lb is 3.7 million times as costly as nectar. If there is no natural flow one could still make sugar honey. If the insecticide manufacturers continue it may soon be the ONLY way to make honey.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

trance said:


> It just seems like an obese person or someone who has diabetes and complains about being obese or always has high blood sugar yet reads reports/studies that HFCS contributes to obesity and diabetes but still doesn't avoid HFCS in the food they eat. I guess I got the wrong impression that many keepers use HFCS as the bees main diet, heck even bushy mountain (Did I jack up their name?) will sell a tanker of HFCS for bee keepers!


I don't know what "keepers" do, but beekeepers don't supply HFCS to their bees as their main diet. Beekeeper Supply Companies broker the sale of tanker loads of HFCS to beekeepers.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I though you could cart off one of those big squishy containers of hfcs rather than require a tanker?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> I though you could cart off one of those big squishy containers of hfcs rather than require a tanker?


All kinds of ways of buying it... just depends on the quantity you are wanting....


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Lauri said:


> "Feeding bees organic sugar is a bad idea. The reason the organic unbleached sugar is brown is because it contains solids, which are mostly ash. Not good for bee food. "
> 
> That is what they say, but I have done it. 7 Hives that had _amazing _growth and vigor. Maybe I was just lucky I didn't kill them. The price of the organic sugar has gone way up and I have way too many hives to even consider it now.


Lauri, the way it works, is that brown sugar contains solids, in scientific speak referred to as ash, because after burning in a lab dish, these solids are left behind as ash. It can also be referred to as molasses, the dark matter that can be removed from raw sugar.

We can eat brown sugar, no worries. But bees are not equipped to digest these solids, and excrete them. So feeding brown sugar causes the bees to poop a lot, and can cause diarrea. Refined sugar has the ash removed and contains nothing indigestible for bees.

So if brown sugar is fed during good weather, the bees can get out of the hive to poop and there is less of an issue. But if it's fed to get the bees through a winter when bees will be confined inside for long periods, it causes the bees to defecate inside the hive, and can cause the spread of nosema disease and the death of the hive. It is a VERY bad plan to feed raw / organic / brown sugar to bees going into winter. You may get away with it at other times, it is still less desirable. 

As an interesting aside, a study was done which showed better survival rates through winter of bees fed refined sugar, than bees on honey. This is because honey the bees had in the particular study, contained 4 times as much ash, as refined sugar. So the sugar fed bees were not forced to poop in the hive as much, nosema disease was spread less, and there was a better survival rate.

There's been a number of comparisons between bees, and people, or children. The crux is, that excess sugar is bad for people, we are designed to eat just about everything. Bees though are designed to eat sugar, they do not get obese, have heart attacks, or whatever. The argument that too much sugar is bad for people so we should not feed it to bees is a misunderstanding of the biology of the two organisms.

I think the debate about this, which goes on continuously, is really because refined sugar is man made, ie, it's not "natural", therefore it must be bad. The first two are true, but in the case of bees, not the third. It just happens, that refined sugar is a good food for bees. That's because refined sugar is fairly pure, and does not contain much of anything harmful to the bees. It lacks in protein and other things that bees need, but the natural way for bees to get these other things, is by consuming pollen, which contains them in high concentration. Pollen is one of natures multi vitamin / mineral / protein packed products. Long as the bees have sufficient pollen, they do just fine on refined sugar, which meets their carbohydrate requirements.

The final part of this, is there are some who say we should not feed bees, because that is encouraging "weak" bees, that would not otherwise survive. The flaw in this argument, is that bees did not evolve in the modern United States. They were on the planet before humans, and come from a natural environment full of huge plant biodiversity, with different plant species flowering at different times. We cannot expect them to be dropped in the middle of a comparative monoculture, and if there is nothing flowering, somehow extract something to eat from thin air. We created the modern environment that can be harsh on bees, it is therefore our responsibility not to expect them to do anything that defies the laws of physics.
When we plant some new plants in the garden during summer, if need be, we water them. We do not expect them to survive in a bone dry environment without water, or if we do, we will likely lose them what we have done in planting them to a dry environment is not natural. We should also keep our expectations of our bees within what they can reasonably achieve.

Recently I even saw someone ask if he should feed his package. What? The package bees have been artificially removed from their hive and food stores, shipped, and then put in an empty hive in a place with possibly nothing at all for them to eat. Of course they have to be fed.

I've said all this, to try and resolve some of the issues around this topic as helpfully as I can. I'm coming from the perspective of someone who has cared for bees for a long time. I know that things are very difficult for new beekeepers now a days, there is just so much conflicting information about. And when reading some literature that attacks the feeding of sugar to bees, often in a way that tugs at the emotions, it is quite understandable that people can buy in, and react against sugar feeding.
However it is not quite the monster it is sometimes made out to be, and can actually be the best antidote, to the very unnatural environment we have created, that bees live in now.

Everybody is different, and I know there are some who will not believe a word I have just said. But actually, I'm fine with that, each to their own, I respect that what some people do in their good conscience, is different to what I do in mine.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I hate to interrupt everyone having fun rolling around in the mud, but I have a question; Has anyone studied syrup-derived "honey" stored in combs, and determined how much pollen is in it, compared to honey derived from flowers?

If it isn't much, I wonder if this could be a factor in diminished winter survival?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

rhaldridge said:


> I hate to interrupt everyone having fun rolling around in the mud, but I have a question; Has anyone studied syrup-derived "honey" stored in combs, and determined how much pollen is in it, compared to honey derived from flowers?
> 
> If it isn't much, I wonder if this could be a factor in diminished winter survival?


Interesting question. I wonder if the pollen found in honey is digestible for the bee.....?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't think it's been studied, however my own belief is you are correct, there would be less pollen in sugar that's been stored, than nectar. (Although I'm not certain of that, it's my belief).

However this is not an issue for winter survival, which if anything is improved if the bees are eating refined sugar. That's the reality and it has been studied.

Couple things though and the first is just my opinion. I don't like wintering bees on pure sugar, no honey, although on occasion I have done it. In practise, it's likely that most beekeepers who feed sugar for winter, would do it as a top up, ie, they would see how much honey the hive has, then top up to the required amount with sugar. This ought to be fine.

The second thing, is that adult bees do not consume or need, much pollen. Pollen is fed in high concentration to the larvae, who store enough of the essentials in their body tissues, to last them their adult life. The exception being the queen, who lives a long time and consumes pollen, or at least it's derivative in the form of royal jelly.

So the hive, as a unit, can function fine on sugar. The larvae are fed sugar mixed with pollen, and all requirements are met.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

oldtimer, i was under the impression that the bees obtain some of their immunity to pathogens via the enzymes and other components of real honey.

was the study you referenced pre-varroa and pre-nosema ceranae?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You may be right about the immunity thing, honestly I just wouldn't know, sounds like a reasonable proposition though.

The study was post varroa, not sure about _N. cerana_. I've had a hunt for it but unfortunately can't find it.

So any readers can take it with a grain of salt if you wish, not my problem I'm not trying to force feed anyone LOL. 

However, it was done in Canada, which should be good because of their hard winters. The method was to use a fairly large hive sample, used with the permission of a commercial beekeeper. All were given adequate supplies to ensure starvation would not be an issue, some given honey only and some were chosen on the basis that virtually all honey could be removed and they were given syrup. Refined sugar, not HFCS. Survival was greater in the sugar fed ones.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

no worries ot, i found that to be an interesting piece of information.

i didn't 'top off' last year, and it ended up being a narrow escape with the late arrival of spring this year.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes I've heard about your weather, in some places spring is still "happening"!

I'm sure you'll be on top of things though Squarepeg.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Oldtimer, thank you for taking so much time to contribute to this thread. 

Mark, thank you for not letting me be the only one to get my hackles up

Michael, your posts are always informative. Thanks all.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm ready for my closeup Mr. De Mille.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Some info about honey and the role the bee plays in converting nectar (syrup) from The Hive and the Honey Bee that may help answer some questions.
-"More than 95% of the solids of honey are carbohydrate in nature, largely simple sugars or monosaccharides."
-"The ash content of honey averages about 0.17% of its weight."
-"The enzymes in honey are almost totally added by the bee, though some traces of plant enzymes may be present."
-"It is thus obvious and generally agreed (Davies, 1975) that most of the proline in honey originates from the bee, rather than from nectar or pollen."


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Glucose Oxidase is part of the Honeybees social immunity and is found in honey. If you add water to honey, it makes hydrogen peroxide.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

WLC said:


> Glucose Oxidase is part of the Honeybees social immunity and is found in honey. If you add water to honey, it makes hydrogen peroxide.


so when bees dilute stored honey with water for consumption the peroxide serves to kill pathogens?

which would not happen with 'syrup honey'?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

WLC said:


> Glucose Oxidase is part of the Honeybees social immunity and is found in honey. If you add water to honey, it makes hydrogen peroxide.


What is Social Immunity? Some type of resistance to group diseases? Have no clue.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

If they're storing it in honeycomb, it most likely has the same secretions as nectar.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Social immunity means 'shared' immunity.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

WLC said:


> If they're storing it in honeycomb, it most likely has the same secretions as nectar.


that's interesting. so does real honey offer any advantages toward immunity vs. stored syrup?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Polyphenols.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> so when bees dilute stored honey with water for consumption ...


Where did you get the idea that they do that?


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## trance (Mar 29, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> I've said all this, to try and resolve some of the issues around this topic as helpfully as I can. I'm coming from the perspective of someone who has cared for bees for a long time. I know that things are very difficult for new beekeepers now a days, there is just so much conflicting information about. And when reading some literature that attacks the feeding of sugar to bees, often in a way that tugs at the emotions, it is quite understandable that people can buy in, and react against sugar feeding.
> However it is not quite the monster it is sometimes made out to be, and can actually be the best antidote, to the very unnatural environment we have created, that bees live in now.
> 
> Everybody is different, and I know there are some who will not believe a word I have just said. But actually, I'm fine with that, each to their own, I respect that what some people do in their good conscience, is different to what I do in mine.


Thank you OT and sqkcrk. I get a little passionate when I get into something I enjoy and it is very confusing to read so much bad about something and then to have another side say it's ok but your comments have allowed me to view the other side a bit clearer.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> If you add water to honey, it makes hydrogen peroxide.


What!!?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

If you have a sore throat, take a table spoon or two of honey. Don't mix it in hot tea for that purpose. The heat inactivates glucose oxidase.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Take some honey, put it in a small glass container, add cold water, and observe.

I know this because I had to heat samples when extracting nucleic acids from honey.

No kidding.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Where did you get the idea that they do that?


don't remember where mark, i think i read it on here somewhere, and i noticed a lot of water foraging in late winter when they were eating through their honey stores.

so they don't use water to dilute and digest honey?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

wlc, thanks. i think i'll take the rest of this rainy weekend to do some homework, starting with rereading randy oliver's papers on nutrition.

trance, nice post.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> don't remember where mark, i think i read it on here somewhere, and i noticed a lot of water foraging in late winter when they were eating through their honey stores.
> 
> so they don't use water to dilute and digest honey?


they need water to dilute some of this hard canola honey, otherwise it is unusable


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> don't remember where mark, i think i read it on here somewhere, and i noticed a lot of water foraging in late winter when they were eating through their honey stores.
> 
> so they don't use water to dilute and digest honey?


I don't know why they would need to. It's already a liquid. It wouyld be interesting if they did. I just don't know why it would be necessary.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks for the kind words Trance.


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## BlueDiamond (Apr 8, 2011)

Roland said:


> C'mon you guys, this is May Berrenbaum. I can not take here seriously. I have communicated with her via e-mail, attended one of her lectures, and then spoke with her in person after wards. Although her research may be accurate, be very carefull of her conclusions. She seems to draw conclusions to her liking, mostly for personal gain, not from using logic. Remember, they make money publishing articles and getting grants. Weather it is helpful(or not), or unbiased, is irrelevant.


I agree - I'd rate the intellectual depth of her work about a 4 on a scale of 10. Here's a June 2007 Smithonian magazine article where she says it's plausible that high fructose corn syrup could be one of the causes of CCD:


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I didn't see anyone mention that HFCS can form HMF (hydroxymethyfurfural) over time especially when improperly stored. HMF is bad for bees.

I also recall that some plants were producing mercury tainted HFCS. The mercury was traced to caustic soda produced by the mercury cell method.

Then Senator Obama introduced a bill to phase out mercury cell caustic soda production in the US.

So, I don't think that it's too far fetched for a scientist back then to think that HFCS was a plausible source of CCD.

While I won't disagree with the claim that scientists do have their own agenda, I think that your criticism of May Berenbaum is a bit too tough (a 4 out of 10?). For example, one of her colleagues at the University of Illinois, Gene Robinson, was hired by Monsanto.

May Berenbaum was the corresponding author of "Changes in transcript abundance relating to colony collapse disorder in honey bees (Apis mellifera)."

Gene Robinson was 3rd author.

I feel that the paper uncovered some very important molecular clues to the cause of CCD.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

So for us common folks, what does changes in transcript abundance mean?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> So for us common folks, what does changes in transcript abundance mean?


Pretty sure that is DNA/RNA lingo.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

WLC said:


> I didn't see anyone mention that HFCS can form HMF (hydroxymethyfurfural) over time especially when improperly stored. HMF is bad for bees.


Well, since HMF is a by product of fructose, I assume honey can form HMF over time and when improperly stored


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Transcript abundance just means that they examined different RNAs being made by CCD bees.

I don't think that Berenbaum truly thought that HFCS was a cause of CCD.

I'm not sure of the rate of HMF formation in honey (if any).

HFCS does have a known rate of HMF formation for different temperatures.


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