# Spring on the West Coast.



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Hi everybody. Spring on the west coast of BC has been impressive. We have low losses. We wintered 4500 and 10 days ago we were just shy of 4000. Last Wednesday we split the best for a long time good customer. As of today the total of nucs made up is 1200. We have to introduce 600 queens to the second 600 nucs in 2 days when it rains. Tomorrow is sunny, so we will go around and handpick some brood from individual hives. A percentage of the handpicked bees will be used to boost medium strength hives as we go around feeding and plucking bees. Maybe 20% of the bees for medium strength hives. 10% for weak ones. I also have handpicked another 160 hives to explode for next weeks queens. These hives have 8 good frames of brood. 4 nucs per the top 5 % of colonies in the outfit every week. I am trying to push out 4000 units beating our past year high of 3000. We like to introduce the queens using Caspian solution and our own patties made of mostly Chinese irradiated bee pollen sugar water, soya flour, honey. We get high queen introduction success rates usually in the mid nineties rain or shine. The first 2000 nucs are spoken for and 450 singles and 48 doubles. I think we can put out another couple thousand units this year. A primary motivation is the challenge. I never put it together. We have the bees for an easy 4000 nucs and still keep 4000 units for pollination and honey production. The tougher part is separating all the moving parts and then reassembling in other units. Moving them, feeding again, introducing queens, and keep feeding Caspian every manipulation. Syrup and pollen also, depending on the weather and flow and the situation. Every week there are more units until about 30-40 days after making they gotta go or we can also build them up to singles or doubles. 

The first 2 capped brood hatch out within 10 days plus the 2 good shakes of bees gives a pretty tight 5 frames of bees. They can make 3 good frames of capped brood that generation, plus the 5 days for queen introduction, a 6th day before she lays and by day 27 new bees are hatching. Best if bees are gone 12 days later because they need room to expand and will not transport as well if they get too strong on 5 frames. 6 frames can yield another 10 days before they need switching out. That is the best part of beekeeping... watching explosive spring population growth.

Jean-Marc


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

jean-marc said:


> The first 2 capped brood hatch out within 10 days plus the 2 good shakes of bees gives a pretty tight 5 frames of bees. They can make 3 good frames of capped brood that generation, plus the 5 days for queen introduction, a 6th day before she lays and by day 27 new bees are hatching. Best if bees are gone 12 days later because they need room to expand and will not transport as well if they get too strong on 5 frames. 6 frames can yield another 10 days before they need switching out. That is the best part of beekeeping... watching explosive spring population growth.


I'm filing that schedule. I've been pondering the numbers / schedule, and that lays it out pretty nicely. Seems to jive well with what we have been seeing here.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

The good part about selecting the best ones to explode is that it helps alleviate swarming issues. Those good hives can generate good $ and so they should. They cost a lot in feed and labor. The rest of the hives are allowed to grow at their own speed. Explode later or produce honey when they get to strength.

Jean-Marc


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## justin (Jun 16, 2007)

Do you leave the queens caged for 5 days? We're using candy to release them in california, but then don't open them up for a week or more. they are out of the cage and laying pretty quick.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

How many guys working on your crew Jean Marc?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

We have 11 guys Ian, 12 with me but unfortunately I do not spend too much time in the field. Mostly checking their work and planning the next move. We are running more hives than ever and it is a learning curve. Just on the cash side is interesting. It takes a big pile of it. More trucks, forklifts etc. 

Justin, we try to time it so she is released on day 5. The queens come with candy. For instance today we introduce queens in some hives that were exploded. We are keeping the queen from last year, after all she brought the hives up to 7-9 frames of brood. Cannot be all bad. So we have to check for eggs or queen cells before we place a queen in. Some were made Monday some Tuesday. We will remove a good part of the candy from the queen cage to speed up the release.

The other set of nucs were made by placing 2 frames of capped brood and 2 shakes. We do not find the queen but remove 2-4 % of the queens by accident. We go around so often that we will catch the queenless ones later and requeen them to keep them going.

Jean-Marc


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

How often do you check each hive to confirm the Queenless ones? Where do you order your Queens from?


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

I love beekeepers!!! It's hard not to brag just when talking regular ole bee talk... there isn't anything I can add to this thread except some cynicism.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

babybee said:


> there isn't anything I can add to this thread except some cynicism.


nope, keep that for other forums.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jean-marc said:


> We have 11 guys Ian, 12 with me but unfortunately I do not spend too much time in the field. Mostly checking their work and planning the next move. We are running more hives than ever and it is a learning curve. Just on the cash side is interesting. It takes a big pile of it. More trucks, forklifts etc.


Thats awesome jean-marc! How many experienced apiarist do you hire? Long time workers?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Thank you Ian. In some ways we are a happening kind of place. All the crew but one has been at least around for at least a year. We teach them some basic beekeeping during season one. They are all skilled after a year. 2 years better, 3 years even better. My main guy has been here 5 years. We do things differently than most and it is all nutrition based. With time guys get better, so does the outfit. We have made many mistakes. With time recipes and methods have been tweaked to avoid the mistakes.

Today we introduced queens to the nucs made this week. The other crew prepped some hives for dividing. They were 2 high mostly full, not all. Resources were spread into a third box. 1 feeder in each box.2 honey capped brood mostly 1 very good frame another frame with eggs and larva... just to keep bees in the box once divided. 1 frame of pollen... 1 frame feeder. The boxes were stacked,chimney style to distribute the adults. I looked at a few at the end of the day and there was a good 5-6 frames. Monday we will move them out. Try to finish around 20 pallets tomorrow. It's raining tomorrow and the crew is tired but do that and beer and pizza at day's end on the boss's tab. I want to try and push out 5-600 units week for 6-7 weeks. 

Cynics are welcome to look with their own eyes. 

Janne we like to check every 10 days. Earlier in the year we were in weekly but now with blueberry pollination having started it always breaks the beekeeping side. It is moving bees early and late and bees suffer. If they are past 10 days we add 3 frames of eggs. Keeps the population together and gives the bees something to do. 2-3 weeks later the queen egg lays and the adult bees will start hatching. This way the population of the hive is balanced... young and old. 

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Although what your doing beekeeping wise is fascinating its a variance on what we all basically do. It's your time management and your ability to cast the work off to help is what really fascinates me. I'm learning this, as we all here on the farm as our operation flourishes. 
Setting up a facility, building in procedures, standardization and consistency is key. And from what I notice, if it all comes together properly even new employees can achieve the work knowledge needed to properly accomplish these jobs. It's about setting things up and executing it properly. 

I'm not running a show like you but last year I forced myself a taste of something similar. I hired in 7 school kids to run a two crew honey pull. One honey house one yards. It worked perfectly and by setting the op up as such not only did I yield more honey, winter better hives because my fall work ALL got done properly and help with combining through a terribly stressful harvest, but I was also able to spend the evenings and a few weekends at the lake with my family. Hats off Jean-Marc!
Next step more hives!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Good for you Ian. Basically a herniated disc ended my beekeeping career as a owner/labourer/manger. It forced me to turn it over to employees. Set up systems and hope for the best. We have a good team now but we have 1 very good guy. The rest are good but 1 very good. i was surprised once by a comment you had made where your hired folks were box lifters. I think any and all the time I spend training employees pays huge dividends. The more they know the better the outfit gets.

We are thinking to transition more into bee sales and honey production. Pollination seems to take a lot of energy and seems more and more like a big distraction. We go from 20-25 yards nearby to nearly 100. It becomes hard to give the feeding attention and dividing populations to increase.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya but anyone any good will be trained and gone by 2-3 years to other ventures. I feed off school kid employment. Competent yes, beekeepers no. I am training one person hopefully as a career here. A crew needs experienceed supervisor for sure


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

ll leave but these guys are all from Nicaragua. Hard to find Canadians. The industry cannot pay what is required to afford to live in the Vancouver surrounding areas. Family guy would need minimum $25/hr just to pay bills. Rental housing , not mortgage. No yearly family vacation at $25/hr unless into camping. So the foreign worker likes the pay cheque... puts up with long hours hard work etc... That today's dream becomes tomorrow's necessity.

The federal government has screwed up again and next year 4 in 4 out kicks in. I will loose part of the crew to that not greener pastures. The SAWP is exempt to the 4 in 4 out. Do not really understand why Mexicans are so special. Canada is playing favorites at the expense of business owners.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Can you elaborate on the 4 in 4 out?


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Ian said:


> Can you elaborate on the 4 in 4 out?


That would be 4 years to work in canada and 4 years not. It is a new law going into effect for temporary foriegn workers besides other ones. Hopefully something can be worked out for JM to at least keep his one good guy on.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I'm glad it's going good for you Jean-Marc. The spring has been good to those who've managed their hives well. I'll be making 400 nucs myself in the next week. It is my biggest endeaver to date and doing it solo to boot. BTW, I'm going to need more pollen in a couple of weeks, if you're not to busy, i'll stay for a coffee and catch up. 

PS: I have some pleasant memories from when I worked with. I think mostly on the interactions between you and the old filipino crew.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ian and others:

Foreign workers can come into Canada through the SAWP -seasonal agricultural worker program. Countries include Mexico and recently Jamaica and perhaps other Caribbean countries. The rest of the workers fall under the TFWP the Temporary Foreign Worker Program. Many beekeepers come from Nicaragua (good workers) the Philippines (they speak English) Eastern European countries. The federal government has implemented a restriction on the TFWP by allowing them 4 years into Canada, then they would have to sit out the next 4 years. Some of my guys seem to think that it is 48 months of work, which would give me another year. This will negatively impact my business. I have 5 guys that are year 4 or 5 with us. I am at risk of losing them. That means 20 years of experience not returning... ouch.

It takes awhile to learn how to navigate around here. Lots of people and traffic around here and we move bees maybe 50-60 miles away but it takes awhile to figure out how to get there, even tougher at night.

Jean-Marc


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

With the foreign worker program is the employer responsible for them..do you hsve to pay travel here and back and provide lodgings. What sort of wage do they get? 
Is it that you can't get Canadians to do the work or can you pay the temporary workers that much less that it makes the 4 year worker lodd cycle worth while?
Just curious as know folks the use Nicaraguan workers for their polo ponies...they keep the workers only 6 months of the year. Mexican workers used to be common as barn labour but in the past few years the time they can stay was shortened.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Yes we are responsible for many of their needs. Back and forth ticket. $15.60/hr including 4%vacation pay. At that rate we can charge rent for a house the company purchased last year. We are in a sought after part of the world if real estate prices are an indication of desirability. I would rather have my money tied up in honey supers but with the size of crew we had last year and now, we just had to get out own place. 1 house with 3 suites... 8 bedrooms, 3 kitchens , 5 washrooms. Serves us well.

The wage we pay is not enough for a Canadian family to live on. They could get by but things would be lean. It is seasonal work, most want Monday to Friday, 40 hours a week year round. We do not offer that. We offer 9 months of the year lots of hours , evenings, week-ends, and when it is time to go, it is time to go. Along with the long hour opportunity we are now being pushed into honey production one province over. We have a place there. This turns off most Canadians, self included. Price of honey is too good. Reasonable crop there. I have a lot of hives and they are growing and I do not have too many second pollination jobs, so honey here we go.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks Jean Marc
The Feds have over reacted to an issolated abuse! 
I have not been involved with that program yet do I'm not in tuned with the particulars. My neighbours are also talking about the trouble.

4 in 4 out is quite the restriction. Just about the time your guys are familiar they are not allowed back!! Ridiculous!! It keeps your op in a constant state of training... Because at what we can pay, it keeps Canadians for 1-2 years. 

My op is geared for school kids. But how stable that supply is, who knows. It's one year at a time here. If I were to hire foreign labour, the restrictions would not affect my yearly routine as I'm in training mode all the time anyway


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

The 4 year in ,4 year out was basically the Federal gov't plan to force Employers to hire Canadians.Service Canada is service only in name , keeps a bunch of civil service people shuffling paper and basically just screwing up applications, which are now over 20 pages per applicaton.I made the mistake of reading their info on their web site where it stated to not send your application in untill 3 months before you need your people.My applications are now over 4 months and nobody can tell me much.You are completely right JeanMarc, with wages and benefits approaching $20 /hour,one should be able to hire Canadians, but they don't want a job working with bees that is seasonal,that requires you to work hard for long hours and break into a sweat frequently.Simply put Canadians don't want to work on farms,with bees,for 7 months.The TFW program has grown to fast for the gov't and public opinion of it is very low, the gov't is in damage control because of a few bad apples and fears more bad publicity especially when their is a current recession and approaching higher unemployment


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

They don't want to work for less than being on the dole probably pays! A lot of people not working here but they all are eating, driving cars, wearing better shoes than I buy and have a better cell phone plan than I do.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

If you ever need to hire TFW do so under the SAWP program. The Labor Market Impact Assessment (LMIA) takes the same amount of time, up to 12 weeks I think, but once you have that you can have your Mexicans or Jamaicans in Canada within 2 weeks. The other government has tre screened employees waiting to come. That part is good. There are no restrictions as to how many seasons they can come.

Ian: If it is working then great, no need to change. In your case with the size you are at it works. If you were to have an extra 500 hives it probably would not work. You would have to hire adults that you would want returning year in and out.

I agree with you Irwin. It is interesting that the public has a low opinion of TFW, but the truth is that they fill a lot of service jobs that Canadians do not want to do. I mean we have to demonstrate that we cannot find Canadian candidates before we can get a positive LMIA then the selected TFW can try to obtain a work Visa. Many businesses depend on TFW and when these restrictions come into play those businesses will scream bloody murder.

Jean-Marc


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

jean-marc said:


> I have 5 guys that are year 4 or 5 with us. I am at risk of losing them. That means 20 years of experience not returning... ouch.


If they are good, and you want to keep them, instead of battling TFW paperwork, why not just sign on the line to sponsor them for immigration so they can stay ?


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I currently have an employee from Australia. She started with a visa and decided she would like to stay. We filled out stuff last year and got through that round. Now she had applied for permanent residency. The system is brutal...which in some ways is good...but she applies, the deadline is coming and she has heard nothing. The web site and phone contacts say we won't respond until you have been given a number ( essentially a tracking number) yet is months out, close to the deadline snd still no work of this number. The poor girl is a wreck and I am not too happy either. She is headed back to Australia for a few weeks visit next week...I have concerns she will simply stay once she gets there.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

grozzie2 said:


> If they are good, and you want to keep them, instead of battling TFW paperwork, why not just sign on the line to sponsor them for immigration so they can stay ?


This.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Well, they do not really want to stay but mostly they do not speak English. I tried to get another one to stay but he said no. Mostly I want my no 1 guy to have a second or third family member around, to keep him from getting lonely. That way if we have to switch to Mexicans I can have 2-3 guys to lead crews. I would like them to stay but... free will and all that goes along with it.

Jean-Marc


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

grozzie2 said:


> If they are good, and you want to keep them, instead of battling TFW paperwork, why not just sign on the line to sponsor them for immigration so they can stay ?


BINGO!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Vance G said:


> They don't want to work for less than being on the dole probably pays! A lot of people not working here but they all are eating, driving cars, wearing better shoes than I buy and have a better cell phone plan than I do.


:thumbsup:


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