# splitting



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A "nuc" is a nucleus. That means it's a little bit of everything that a hive needs. I'd give a nucleus some pollen and nectar, some emerging bees and some open brood. Put the brood in the center of the nuc. Shake two frames of nurse bees off of some brood combs to make up for the bees that will drift back to the original hive. If you're letting the nuc raise it's own queen I'd shake in another frame of bees and put in another frame of emerging bees to tide them over for the three to four weeks it will take before they have a laying queen.

If the hive you're taking the frames from is strong enough, as evidenced by half again enough bees in the cluster to cover the brood and festooning bees quickly filling the gaps, then, yes I'd intersperce the empty frames between drawn ones. If they aren't that strong, then maybe it's too early to be doing a split.

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Heres the concepts and some methods of splitting:

I would choose my method for doing a split depending on what you want for an outcome.

Reasons for doing a split:

To get more hives.

To requeen.

To get more production.

To get less production (for people who don't want too many hives or too many bees).

To raise queens.

To prevent swarms.

Timing for doing a split:

As soon as commercial queens are available, or as soon as drones are flying depending on if you want to buy or raise queens you CAN do a split. I depends again on what you want for a outcome.

There are an infinite variety of methods for doing a split. Many of the variations are because of the desired outcome (swarm prevention, maximizing yields, maximizing bees etc.) Here are some of the basic methods. Some of the variations are also due to buying queens or letting the bees raise queens.

The simple version is to make sure you have some eggs in each of the brood chambers and put them facing toward the old location. In other words put a bottom board on the left facing the left side of the hive and one on the right facing the right side of the hive and put one brood box on each and maybe an empty brood box on top of that. Put the tops on and walk away.

If you want to insure a better quality queen, come back in four days and destroy all the CAPPED queen cells. Leave the open ones. The ones that are capped in four days were from larvae that is too old. If you don't do this, you may get a runty queen that the bees will then supercede. Not a big problem, but you can hurry things along and save them this step by getting rid of those.

There are an infinite number of variations of this.

The concepts of splits are:

You have to make sure that both of the resulting colonies have a queen or the resources to make one (eggs or larvae that just hatched from the egg, drones flying, pollen and honey, plenty of nurse bees).

You have to make sure that both of the resulting colonies get an adequate supply of honey and pollen to feed the brood and themselves.

You have to make sure that you account for drift back to the original site and insure that both resulting colonies have enough population of bees to care for the brood and the hive they have.

The old adage is that you can try to raise more bees or more honey. If you want both, then you can try to maximize honey in the old location and bees in the new split. Otherwise most splits are either a small nuc made up from just enough to get it started, or an even split.

An even split. You take half of everything and divide it up. Face both of new hives at the sides of the old hive so the returning bees aren't sure which one to come back to. In a week or so, swap places to equalize the drift to the one with the queen. 

A walk away split. You take a frame of eggs, two frames of emerging brood and two frames of pollen and honey and put them in a 5 frame nuc, shake in some extra nurse bees (making sure you dont get the queen), put the lid on and walk away. Come back in four weeks and see if the queen is laying. 

A typical split. Same as above, but you either introduce a queen you bought or you come back in four days and destroy any queen cells that are capped. These were started from larvae that are too old. Now walk away and let them raise their new queen. If you introduce a queen they will be four weeks ahead of the hive that is raising their own, so you will have to put them in a larger box than a nuc to start with. 

A cut down split. This is very timing critical. It should be done shortly before the main honey flow. The purpose is to maximize the foraging population while minimizing swarming and crowding the bees into the supers.. There are variations on this, but basically the idea is to put almost all the open brood, honey and pollen and the queen in a new hive while leaving all the capped brood, some of the honey and a frame of eggs with the old hive with less brood boxes and more supers. The new hive won't swarm because it doesn't have a workforce (which all returns to the old hive). The old hive won't swarm because it doesn't have a queen or any open brood. It will take at least six weeks or more for them to raise a queen and get a decent brood nest going. Meantime, you still get a lot of production (probably a lot MORE production) from the old hive because they are not busy caring for brood. You get the old hive requeened and you get a split. Another variation is to give the old hive a new young queen and take ALL the open brood out. They won't swarm right away because the open brood is gone.


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

>>>If you want to insure a better quality queen, come back in four days and destroy all the CAPPED queen cells

MB, can you eliminate this step if you find a frame with a capped queen cell in another hive and use it in the nuc? Looks like this would save a couple of weeks before the queen is raising brood.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MB, can you eliminate this step if you find a frame with a capped queen cell in another hive and use it in the nuc? Looks like this would save a couple of weeks before the queen is raising brood.

Sure. I love to find queen cells when I'm wanting to do splits.







Even if I wasn't planning on it, if I find queen cells I often put each frame (except one) that has a queen cell in a two frame nuc with a frame of honey and shake in a few more bees so I can get another queen.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

The drawback of using a naturally occuring swarm cell is that you are inadvertantly selecting for queens with a tendency to swarm. Just my opinion.


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## AndrewSchwab (Dec 9, 2005)

I disagree (even though this is heard over and over again). EVERY hive will swarm if given the conditions for it. For which new queen cells are raised. 
These queen cells will carry the traits of the mother queen, and whatever drones she meets up with 50/50 split, queens/drones.

101 queen raising









ok now someone can blast this apart


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

In theory that may be true, but wouldn't you have to select swarm cells over and over and over to get that trait? Emergency queens are often said to be poorer queens than swarm or supercedure queens, too. Yet, when queen cells are reared artificially isn't that exactly what you are causing the bees to do--to raise emergency queens? Generally, they are quite satisfactory.

[ January 18, 2006, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Thanks for that point, Dick. I was just wondering this myself this week. 

In reply to Aspera, I too hear that concern regarding swarm queens. However, reading Walt Wright's Nectar Management text gave me a new perspective on swarming. That is: swarming is the way the bee species reproduces itself and is the goal of a healthy hive. Walt asserts that early swarms are healthy bees exhibiting their health by reproducing. This type of swarming is in contrast to later swarming which, according to him, is what most text discusses.

In summary, I would want a queen who's hive builds up quickly and healthy in early spring with the intent to swarm. Walt's Nectar Managment is one technique for exploiting this without loosing the swarm. Check it out.

In contrast, to select for queens that don't swarm, then we are selecting against a natural survival trait and selecting for queens whose hives don't follow the natural patern of things.

In reply to Andrew: I agree to a point, and that point is "which trait is dominate?" The dominance and resessiveness of traits don't seem to be as well defined in bees as I would expect for a species so important and so extensively studied. Any insight on that?

Waya


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## GreenMountainRose (Sep 6, 2004)

Thanks for so clearly re-explaining splitting again, Michael. I've read it before, but I wasn't developmentally ready as a beekeeper to understand it before now. Now that I'm weighing my honey before it's hatched, I've been thinking about whether or not I should split my two hives this year, and whether or not splitting would impact my honey production if that is to be. The other connection that I am making here regarding the cut down split is that it is also a way to break the brood cycle for a while, so the cut down split serves to prevent swarming, increase honey production, AND reduce mite populations. Do I have that right?

GreenMountainRose


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

Dick and Waya - 

I'm putting a new post in queen rearing regarding this topic. Hope to have your input. \

Thanks, 

Jeff


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The drawback of using a naturally occuring swarm cell is that you are inadvertantly selecting for queens with a tendency to swarm.

I think they all want to swarm.

>I disagree (even though this is heard over and over again). EVERY hive will swarm if given the conditions for it.

That's been my experience. If you take care of the conditions they don't swarm. If you don't, they do swarm. I don't see it as a genetic issue. I see it as a beekeeping issue.

>ok now someone can blast this apart [Smile] 

I'm sure someone will.


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

>ok now someone can blast this apart [Smile]

There's nothing to blast. Well said.

>I think they all want to swarm.

Natural instinct to procreate and increase, what animal doesn't (please don't name lemmings!)

>The drawback of using a naturally occuring swarm cell is that you are inadvertantly selecting for queens with a tendency to swarm.

Maybe I've got too much testosterone, but I think trying to eliminate the swarm instinct of bees is detracting from the vigor of our stocks. Most beekeepers want swarm-less stocks because they are too lazy to do the necessary work, or just pay attention. We want to castrate bees so that don't sting, but they don't have enough balls to survive the winter. You do the math. I want bees that survive, not blow me kisses. 
Take your stings like a man or take up kniting. 
Do what is right for your bees, not what is easiest for you, and the rest will follow. 

Jeff
[sense any cabin fever?]


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>>The drawback of using a naturally occuring swarm cell is that you are inadvertantly selecting for queens with a tendency to swarm.

Or it could be that you are using cells from hives that have experienced poor managment by thier owners.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Take your stings like a man or take up kniting.

Don't mince your words Jeff, tell us what you really think









And I agree. Swarming is a good thing. Bees that swarm are more likely to survive as a race compared to bees that swarm less as a rule. It's bees doing what bees do naturally. Certain races are supposedly more inclined to swarm than others- Carniolans supposedly are "swarmy" but I'm not aware of any studies that prove this is anything but a management issue.

A friend of mine is switching to Buckfast this coming season because he's "fed up" with his Carniolans which swarmed so much last summer while only a couple of his Buckfast hives swarmed. Clearly, to me at least, his problem was a management problem and unless he addresses the root causes of swarming, he's not going to be any happier with Buckfast bees.. but he'll learn that soon enough.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Or it could be that you are using cells from hives that have experienced poor managment

Perhaps this selects for lazy beekeepers?


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## aladin (Jul 11, 2005)

following this thread to start a von frisch style 4 frame bottom entry observation hive to maximize learning about the bees and planning to let them raise a queen, what is the best order and composition for the 4 frames? what is the minimum to put it? thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>following this thread to start a von frisch style 4 frame bottom entry observation hive

I have a Van Frisch from Brushy Mt. I love it. (I also have a Draper). I did add a 1/4" thick screen molding behind the hinges (with longer screws) and a screen molding as a stop on the handle side to increase the glass space from 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" and a screen molding next to the door just to match the one on the hinge side. Before that there wasn't enough room for the bees with drawn comb in it. It was wide enough if the bees BUILT the comb in the hive, but not wide enough for drawn comb. But it's a very nice hive.

> ...planning to let them raise a queen, what is the best order and composition for the 4 frames? what is the minimum to put it? thanks. 

Since you are letting them raise a queen I'd say minimum is a frame of open brood and eggs, a frame of emerging brood a frame of pollen and a frame of nectar. that way they have food to feed the new queen, bees to tide them over for the 25-28 days it takes to have a new queen laying and the resources (eggs and larvae) to make a queen. But you could probably get by with one frame that has nectar and pollen on it instead of one of each, if you want to watch them build comb. A starter strip on the last frame will let you see natural comb being built. Fat combs of capped honey will not fit in the observation hive.

As to order, I'd put the open brood at the top then the emerging brood then the pollen then the nectar. That's the way they would have built it if you put a package on empty frames.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I think that it has been well established that some strains and races are more prone to swarming than others (scutella vs. caucasians). There is a genetic basis for this, which means that at all times a breeder is either selecting for the trait, or selecting against it (drift and neutral selection are rare things). If the swarm cell comes from a poorly managed colony, fine. I just prefer not to propegate a trait that I don't like. I do like 1) logevity and 3)fecundity in my queens. A long lived, fecund queen is useless to me if she has a propensity toward swarming.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I guess I don't think I've seen a hive swarm that shouldn't have under the circumstances. If they swarm it's my fault, not genetics. (Except those four crazy hives of Texas Buckfasts who swarmed in the middle of a drought in August once.)

I think the idea that Carnis swarm more than Italians is just because the Carnis build up more suddenly and the beeekeeper doesn't see it coming where the Italians are more steady and the beekeer does see it coming.

AHB is a whole 'nother animal.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>AHB is a whole 'nother animal.

Aye. They have a pronounced tendancy to swarm from everything I've read but even then, I gather from what people have said on this site and others that AHB's can be managed in much the same way as EHB to keep them from swarming. They just abscond instead


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## AndrewSchwab (Dec 9, 2005)

I have yet to see hive not want to swarm when the conditions are there. This is a trait that I don't think is going away.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Nice job on the well written split summery, Michael! Do you mind if I paste that on the Oregon message board?
As far as using swarm queens, here is my understanding:
As Andrew says, all colonies can and will swarm if conditions are right.
If a beekeeper were to use swarm queens from hives selected for the traits that the beekeeper desired, such as gentleness and productivity, one could end up with some very good queens, weather etc depending.
If however, the beekeeper opens up a hive and finds 40 or 50 swarm cells all over the place and from these queens, finds 40 or 50 hives next year with 50 or 60 queen cells all over the place; selection for swarminess CAN take place.
I can remember thinking I had struck gold, years ago, upon finding a cache of huge ripe cells.
Cell conformation is important, but secondary to queen trait selection gleaned from the parent colony.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

[ January 19, 2006, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: HarryVanderpool ]


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

<AHB is a whole 'nother animal.>

I give it 5 years before its a whole 'nother animal in a town near you.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{Nice job on the well written split summery}

He's on roll this week, did you see his disease post? Must be that wholesome SD air!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do you mind if I paste that on the Oregon message board?

As long as you give me credit, that's fine.

>He's on roll this week, did you see his disease post? Must be that wholesome SD air!

I haven't been to SD since Novemeber. You just have me confused with someone else.


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## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

<Michael Bush>
I haven't been to SD since Novemeber.

Well then it is obvious that the effects stick around for quite awhile.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

This is one of the few times that I disagree with MB. Bees can be selected for and against tendency to swarm. The indiscriminate use of swarm cells predisposes your colonies to swarm. Read about the Dutch Heather Bee. Its been selected heavily for tendency to swarm each spring. Then it builds a population through summer and makes a crop of honey on the fall heather flow. These bees are useless on a spring nectar flow because they expend all their energy on swarming.

I agree that swarming is a management problem. If bees are properly managed, swarming can be reduced. But the combination of bees with a low swarming tendency and the use of appropriate management produces the best crop with the least amount of effort.

Fusion


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

>>I guess I don't think I've seen a hive swarm that shouldn't have under the circumstances. If they swarm it's my fault, not genetics.

Exactly. You must manage the hives correctly. Are we always going to do it right? NO. Maybe aren't observant enough or get delayed in getting to the bee yard or any other of the many excuses.









>>I think the idea that Carnis swarm more than Italians is just because the Carnis build up more suddenly and the beeekeeper doesn't see it coming where the Italians are more steady and the beekeer does see it coming.

Right!!

And this again points to management or style of management. Your management technique for Italians may be very different than for your Carnies. Maybe it's just in the timing of manipulations and nothing else. Or it could be in doing some additional type of manipulations. Each will have to determine what works best for their particular colonies.

The point is we know much about the factors that contribute to swarming. Take those factors away and you now have addressed the biggest part of the problem. Could your bees still decide to swarm. Sure! But that could happen with any colony. These are insects. We'll never know what they are thinking 100% of the time.









>>If the swarm cell comes from a poorly managed colony, fine.

I'm of the opinion that someone with only one colony or someone just starting out may not know the difference between a properly managed colony and a poorly managed one. For that matter someone with 100 colonies may not know the difference. Although, I'd hope that by the time they have 100 they'd have figured it out.

The only reason I made mention of it was that this is under Beekeeping 101 and it needed to be mentioned that just because you find a swarm cell in your hive doesn't mean that that hive has a higher propensity to swarm than another. As you know there is more to it than that (ie. management)

I'm not debating whether genetics plays a role or not. I'm simply trying to explain that there are factors other than genetics.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

The only reason I made mention of it was that this is under Beekeeping 101 and it needed to be mentioned that just because you find a swarm cell in your hive doesn't mean that that hive has a higher propensity to swarm than another. As you know there is more to it than that ie. management 

I agree wholeheartedly. Swarm cells can be found in colonies of any sort because it is part of every bee's basic biology. I was just trying to make the point that unselected bees, such as scutella, swarm more than ones that have been selected for a disinclination to swarm, such as Caucasians.You can always "trick" bees through various management schemes, and a beekeeper with 100's of colonies probably does this on a daily basis. Its just hard to fool AHb into NOT swarming. An anology would be that anyone can gain weight, but some of us do it better than others.


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## Walts-son-in-law (Mar 26, 2005)

Notification tag


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

AHB is a whole 'nother animal


That tells me it is genetic!


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

I do believe hive management plays a huge part if not by far the biggest part, but genetics play a part to just by the fact of the AHB's repution.


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